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TNCLUDED TN THE REPRODUCTION
OF THE FILE PAGES INCLUDED
THAT ARE BLURRED, LIGHT OR
QTHERWTSE ETEETQULT T0 READ
ARE THE RESULT QF THE CONDITION
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4
I
I
92
I
92
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
O
TAPE #29
3/3/93
e
I U 2
JIM: That's what you've got to do and you've
got to we're both in the position that we've got to
trust somebody. And I got to tell you how much I
appreciate you helping us with all those kids.
SITA: Hey, I appreciate you because David
really trusts you.
JIM: Yeah. Well, I trust him. I trust him.
And we've had no - everything we've done has been
solid with the one exception of yesterday when, you
know, he told me he was going to come out after we
played the message and then he didn't. Other than
that, he's been solid.
SITA: He was ready.
JIM: Yeah.
SITA: The guys were putting -- his clothes
changed and everything and then he just had this kind
of vision and he has to do what he's been told also, as
you do, also.
JIM: I understand. Well, you know, he, he
may get another vision or a feeling or something that
it's time to leave with his people, you know.
SITA: Yeah.
JIM: And I'm hoping that that will be soon
and - you know, it could be. I mean that could be any
moment, you know.
SITA: Yeah. He's waiting.
O U 3
JIM:
You know --
SITA:
JIM:
it will happen.
SITA:
JIM:
for it.
SITA:
JIM:
praying for.
SITA:
pray. Not onlyMaybe, maybe he'll get it, you know.
We're all praying for this.
well, if you're praying for it, maybe
Uhhuh.
You know, let him know you're praying
Oh,
Tell
And
him,yes, he does. We've been praying.
him -- and tell him what you're
you guys have to help us out to
it's the whole world.
JIM: The whole world. Well, listen, I told
David that - after his message went on the Christian
Broadcasting station, thousands and thousands of people
were calling. And the Christian Broadcasting people
told us they couldn't even keep the phones on the hook.
There were so many calls. But the only disappointment
they had was that, you know, he didn't come out, you
know, with, with all the people because he said he
would. And they were all just so enthused about it.
This guy - and look at him and he's a leader. And he
has all these, you know, beautiful ideas and he's going
to solve this peacefully. And he told the world he
would and then he didn't, you know.
Q I 4
SITA: No, he was ready, but he got this
vision and he doesn't break his promise. This man --
JIM: I understand.
SITA: -- I never seen - but he --
JIM: I understand.
SITA: but he's been beautiful.
JIM: I understand that. And I'm hoping
that, that, you know, he may get a, a vision or feeling
or however it comes to him, Sita, you know, maybe that
you or I can't understand. Is, is Mark out yet?
SITA: No, just a minute.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Okay, Mark, are you ready? Okay. I
love you now.
JIM: Hey, David? Oh, Sita?
DAVID: Where's Dave at? Okay. Well, go say
goodbye then to him, all right. Jim?
JIM: What? I'm sorry, David.
DAVID: Hello?
JIM: Yeah, go ahead.
DAVID: Just be careful when you walk through
here, not to walk on the phone. All right, I'm here.
JIM: How's Mark doing?
DAVID: He's fixing to leave now.
JIM: Okay. he's fixing to --
DAVID: He's telling his dad bye.
O Q 5
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
didn't know his
DAVID
JIM:
feeling?
DAVID:
JIM:
morning --
DAVID
JIM:
to that doctor.Okay. His dad's in there?
Yeah.
what, what's his daddy's name?
Peter Cottontail Eater.
What?
I'm teasing with you.
No, no, I just -- I don't know -- I
dad was in there.
His name is Dave.
Dave. Okay. Yeah, how are you
I'm --
Hey, one thing I wanted to ask you this
Yeah.
Let me see my note I made when I talked
He was, he was concerned -- I told him
about your wounds and --
DAVID: Well, evidently they didn't hit in --
they didn't hit
JIM;in my colon.
Okay. Well, that's, that's one thing
he was asking about.
DAVID: That's the main thing and I would
know -- the fecal material didn't go anywhere, you
know.
JIM: Okay. And how about urination? He
O U 6
asked about could you urinate.
DAVID: Well, the first two times -- well, it
was hard the first two times and blood came out the
first time. And the second time, it was hard to tell.
And the third time I've urinated, it, it, it's all
better.
JIM: Oh, it is?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: How -- he asked about bowel movements
also, but I -- that's been okay?
DAVID: Well, I haven't had one as of yet but
that's going to be kind of difficult but --
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: - I haven't eaten anything for let's
see -- see, I've only had like soup, you know, chicken
broth soup.
JIM: Well, that's good, yeah.
DAVID: So, that will, that will keep - that
will give me the nourishment but it will keep the bulk
out of my system.
JIM: Right. I told him you thought, you
know, it might have busted your pelvis and, and a
pelvic bone or something.
DAVID: Yes.
JIM: And he said, yeah, that would of course
affect your walking or anything like that.
O U ,
DAVID; Yeah.
JIM: And he, he -- then he asked about the
location of the wound, front and back and especially
your pulse. He said your pulse was real important so
you weren't in shock, you know. And he said --
DAVID: well, it was real, real low.
JIM: Right. Low?
DAVID: But then what happened was it was --
then it -- something, something over ~ something over
80, something --
JIM: Well, that's blood pressure.
DAVID: And what, what was the pulse?
JIM: The pulse is, you know, how many beats
per minute on your heart. He said, he said blood
pressure is only one indicator and you need to check on
the pulse because it could be like --
DAVID: Rach? Be sure and tell him.
An unidentified person speaking in the
background to David!
DAVID: Okay. Yeah, tell everybody.
JIM: Check your pulse for me some time
later.
DAVID: Okay. Well, I can what was my,
what was my pulse the last time you read it?
An unidentified person speaking in the
background to David!
O 9 8
DAVID: Seventytwo. Okay. Hey, I'm going
to let you talk to her.
JIM: Okay. Is this the nurse?
JULIENNE: Hello.
JIM: Hello. This is Jim.
JULIENNE: Yeah?
JIM: who is this?
- JULIENNE: I'm, I'm the nurse.
JIM: Oh, and what's your name?
JULIENNE: My name is Julienne Matthews
Phonetic.!
JIM: I'm sorry, your first name?
JULIENNE: Pardon?
JIM: What was your first name?
JULIENNE: Julienne
JIM: Julienne?
JULIENNE: Yes.
JIM: Okay. Are you English?
JULIENNE: No, I'm not.
JIM: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought - I detected
JULIENNE: Yeah.
JIM: I was talking to David about his wounds
and I, I just wanted to make sure he wasn't going to be
in shock or --
JULIENNE: Yes. Well, look, at the moment
his condition is satisfactory and it is stable. His
observations are quite satisfactory.
JIM: Okay.
JULIENNE: Yeah.
JIM: Now, can you tell me where that front
wound is? He said it was lower abdomen.
JULIENNE: Yes, it was lower left abdomen.
JIM: Lower left, okay. Is it --
JULIENNE: Yes,
JIM: - is it near his belly button?
JULIENNE: No, further down, near the iliac
crest, on the left.
JIM: Oh, I see, okay.
JULIENNE: Yes.
JIM: Is he, is he bleeding bad or anything?
JULIENNE: He was in the first place but now
it seems to have subsided. It's just oozing a little.
JIM: Okay.
JULIENNE: Yes.
JIM: Just oozing but you don't think it's
infected, do you?
JULIENNE: No, I don't think so.
JIM: Okay.
JULIENNE: He's eating. He's having soup.
And he's passing, urinating all right. And he hasn't
got a temperature, you know. His temperature is quite
U ' .0
normal.
JIM: Okay. That's good.
JULIENNE: His color looks good.
JIM: Color good, okay.
JULIENNE: Yeah.
JIM: And you say he's urinating?
JULIENNE: Yes, he's passing water all right.
JIM: Okay. No vomiting or anything?
JULIENNE: No vomiting, no headache, no.
JIM: Okay. How about that wound in the
back, Julian, how does it look on his back side there?
JULIENNE: Fine. As I said, it's just
oozing, that's all.
JIM: Oh, and that's in the back?
JULIENNE: Yes .
JIM: Okay. What color is it now?
JULIENNE: It's just clear fluid.
JIM: Okay. Okay. So, you think he's going
to be stable?
JULIENNE: Yes, I think so. I've been doing
regular observation checks and it seems to be stable.
JIM: Do you need any medication or --
JULIENNE: Pardon?
JIM: Or is he, is he taking any?
JULIENNE: No, he doesn't take medication at
all.
U . .1
JIM: Oh, he --
JULIENNE: Mr. Koresh doesn't like taking
medication.
JIM: Oh, I see. Okay.
JULIENNE: General health is always good.
JIM: The what?
JULIENNE: He has been always in good
condition, good health. .
JIM: Okay. Is his doesn't he have a
wound on his arm?
JULIENNE: Yes, a slight one.
JIM: Is that --
JULIENNE: On the left arm.
JIM: Is it okay?
JULIENNE: Yes, it is okay.
JIM: Okay. How about Scott's wound on his
leg? He seemed to be having some trouble with it. Did
you look at him?
JULIENNE: Just a minute. On his leg?
JIM: Yeah.
JULIENNE: Just a minute, please.
JIM: Okay.
JULIENNE: I'm sorry, you misunderstood.
JIM: What? Julian?
JULIENNE: Oh, Scott, Scott.
JIM: Scott.
O 9 1.
JULIENNE: Yes.
JIM: Yeah, he had a wound in his leg or --
JULIENNE: Yes, yes.
JIM: How's that doing?
JULIENNE: It's just a slight one. Yes, it
seems to be -- it's not bleeding. It's just healing up
now.
JIM: Okay.
JULIENNE: Seems to be healing now.
JIM: He just seemed to be having a lot of
pain or something yesterday.
JULIENNE: Yeah, but he hasn't had any this
morning. So, it seems as though it's subsiding, you
know.
JIM: Okay. Are there any other serious
medical problems that we need to be prepared for?
JULIENNE: No, there's none at all.
JIM: That's all. Nobody else has a --
JULIENNE: Nobody else. It's just these two
at the moment.
JIM: Okay. Okay. All right. Does David
have full sensation in his, in his legs?
JULIENNE: Oh, just a minute, there's one
more and that's Julie -- Judy.
JIM: Judy?
JULIENNE: Yes.
O ' 1.
JIM: Where was she wounded?
JULIENNE: In her finger her right
shoulder, right shoulder and right finger.
JIM: And right finger, okay. How is she
doing? How do they look? Is she ambulatory, can she
walk?
JULIENNE: Yes, she can. She was feeding her
baby.
JIM: Okay.
JULIENNE: Yes.
JIM: Right shoulder and her right finger?
JULIENNE: Yeah.
JIM: Did you patch her up?
JULIENNE: Yes, I did.
JIM: Okay. And the bleeding stopped?
JULIENNE: Yeah, it has stopped now.
JIM: You don't use any drugs in there at
all, do you?
JULIENNE: No, we don't use any drugs.
JIM: Okay. Let me -- is David there?
JULIENNE: Yes, he is.
JIM: Okay. Let me talk to him.
JULIENNE: All right. Thank you very much.
JIM: Thank you, Julienne.
JULIENNE: Bye.
DAVID: Hello.
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
they told me.
DAVID:
JIM:
check maybe.
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:", 14
Hey, David, did Mark leave?
Mark's left, hadn't he?
No. We haven't seen him out there,
Keep it.
Is Rachel there? Send her down to
They're looking out --
Oh, they're looking --
-- out the door.
The door is open. Okay. They're
telling me the door is open. He must be walking out.
DAVID: And the, the puppies are out there?
JIM:Yeah. He's walking out the door.
DAVID: He's got a box in his hand, right?
JIM:The box is the puppies, yeah.
DAVID: He's not having any trouble carrying
it, is he? They are heavy? Is he having trouble with
the box?
JIM:
he has trouble.You know, you can have Sita carry it if
DAVID: No, he's got it. He's already passed
the Silver Eagle bus.
JIM:
way down then.Oh, he's already half way - a quarter
Okay, good. He must be able to get
down there. That's a big bus.1
'
O " 15
DAVID: Yeah, it was going to be our tour
bus.
JIM: Does that thing run?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: That's neat.
DAVID: A brand new motor.
JIM: Wow. You must have some good mechanics
out there, all those cars.
DAVID: It's not really that many cars.
JIM: There's quite a few.
DAVID: Had a Camero restoration shop.
Didn't do too good out here in Texas, though.
JIM: Oh, yeah. It's tough --
DAVID: Yeah, the news are in there saying
that we got all this stuff, we must be into drugs.
They're hoping to find drugs and stuff.
JIM: Is that right?
DAVID: Something I have been against all my
life, cocaine, heroine.
JIM: Well, the nurse said that you didn't
take any medications.
DAVID: No. Well, see what happens was I had
was just a couple of years ago, I got an anxiety
attack one time.
JIM: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And, so, I went to check on it and
0 ' 1.
they wanted to give me some Anzac or Danzig or I can't
remember what the stuff is called. Well, I took it and
it just affected me so much, I just said forget that.
JIM: Is it Xanax?
DAVID: Yeah, Xanax. I think that's it,
something like that.
JIM: Yeah, I've heard of that.
DAVID: And it's just, it's just no good.
JIM: Well, what does -- does it make you
feel bad, feel --
DAVID: Oh, it just made me --
JIM: Throw up?
DAVID: -- made me slur. I couldn't talk,
you know.
JIM: Oh, yeah. Hey, listen, I really
appreciate your letting Mark out.
DAVID: Well, like I say, it's, you know,
your people have us figured out all wrong.
JIM: No. I'm glad --
DAVID: You're trying to figure out a
terrorist mind, you know. You just don't understand.
JIM: No. I'm glad we're it's beginning
to work well together and, again, like we were before.
Is there anybody else you want to send out?
DAVID: We're checking around.
JIM: Okay.i
f
U Q 17
DAVID: Well, he said he wanted to -- he said
he'd like to go. So, off he goes.
JIM: Okay. Is there any - maybe some of
those women with those little children, if there is any
of those who might want to come.
DAVID: They're waiting.
JIM: Sita was kind of worried about her
kids.
DAVID: Well, she heard on the news that you
already put them in the foster homes and it was
understood that they were going to be given over to
their immediate families.
JIM: Oh, no, they're, they're working on
that.
DAVID: Cause like I say, you know, that news
is --
JIM: Well, they never tell anything right.
I know you love those kids. I'm telling you. I know
you do. I can tell just by the way you're holding
Bobby there.
DAVID: Nothing more, nothing more - well,
even Hitler loved kids, didn't he?
JIM: Hey, you can't, you can't that's
something you - it's got to be genuine, you know. And
you love those kids.
DAVID: Ask them if they love me.
0 9 1.
JIM: Oh, heck, they do. I can tell you
that. I can tell you that. I've talked to them and
seen every one of them and they do love you.
DAVID: What this, what's this thing we've
got 15 dead?
JIM: Oh, the news media --
DAVID: I mean we're getting, we're getting,
we're getting shot more everyday. I mean --
JIM: Yeah. They're just making up stuff,
the news media. Don't worry about that.
DAVID: Well, why, why don't you all correct
it?
DAVID: well, we don't, we don't share our
conversations. We don't tell them what you and I talk
about unless it's, unless it's a press conference that
DAVID: Well, the press conference, they
didn't correct it at the press conference either.
JIM: Well, I don't know that they even asked
them. They said two. They said there was just the
two, the lady and the little girl.
DAVID: These, these reports --
JIM: Those reports, I mean -- did I tell you
what they did yesterday?
DAVID: What did they do?
JIM: You remember when we had the school
0 9 1.
buses down there?
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JIM: Okay. when the school buses drove
away, they came out and said 20 children just left on
the school bus.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: That's what they said.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Then they're calling up here to the
Commander saying, where's the 20 children, you know.
And they just make it up. I mean when you come out,
that's one thing that you've got to put your mind to
and that's to correct all that false reports of the
press.
DAVID: when I come out, Jim, that's the last
thing I'll be ever to say. You know that.
JIM: Oh, that's not true.
DAVID: Oh, Jim, come on.
JIM: Hey, did you seriously in that news
conference, did you see those reporters? I've never
seen so many reporters.
DAVID: Oh, yeah. They're, they're all
looking for the scoop.
JIM: I mean - that's right. That's exactly
right. And they're just going nuts. I mean they want
to, they want to talk to you. They want to hear your
", I. 20
side.
DAVID: Yeah, well, the ATF agents said that
what happened that Sunday morning was that Robert came
out.
JIM: Uhhuh.
DAVID: He gave a false signal. And, you
know, they came in on a false signal.
JIM: Uhhuh. Well, I regret the way that
thing happened. I really do, and I know you do, too.
And if you and me could have been working together on
it, it wouldn't have happened.
DAVID: Well, I told, I told him -- that I
wanted to talk to him, you know.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Because I gave him every possible,
you know, way to know that, you know, God sees all
things. They're trying to figure out how we found out
about this.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: You know.
JIM: Well, I, I told Steve earlier -- we
talked at length and I think the agents got some
information, you know, prior, months ago from some of
your enemies. You, you guys must have some people that
don't like you. And I kind of think --
DAVID: Well,
0 9 2.
JIM: they fed those agents some
information, you know, that - you know what I mean?
DAVID: We've got a lot of people that have
promised to wipe us out.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: All the religious bases.
JIM: Yeah. Yeah.
DAVID: You know. We've had, we've had --
we've even had people call up here and you all, you all
been taping the lines for God knows how long and you,
you probably even have some of these things recorded
where somebody on the phone calls up and says, I'm
going to break up your world and blah, blah, blah.
JIM: Oh. Don't worry about that. I want to
tell you what, when you come out, you're going to be
the biggest attraction in this country.
DAVID: Look, that's not important --
JIM: Overseas.
DAVID: -- okay.
JIM: Well, it's going to happen.
DAVID: God, God is the attraction.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: My father -- let me, let me explain
to you.
JIM: Did you see, did you see all those
people from England, those reporters, and Australia?
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID.
get in trouble,
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID
let's face it.
JIM:
DAVID0 22
Oh, well, you should --
Let me ask --
Oh, well you should - if you ever
never get in trouble in Australia, Jim.
I've never been there, have you?
Never. Oh, yeah, several times.
Yeah. Is it nice or what?
Well, no place is as nice as America,
Yeah.
But the thing of it is is this, they
are into such sensationalism that -- well, like I say,
on all these Hard Copy and 20/20, whatever they're
playing, they always take and --
JIM:That's garbage, isn't it?
DAVID: Well, now, the media likes that. I
mean the people
JIM:like that.
Yeah.
DAVID: But here's the thing, those -
JIM: Trash T.V. I call it.
DAVID: Yeah. Well, those, those guys came
up here last time, you know. Like I said, there's
things that I, I cannot tell people, you know.
JIM: I understand.
DAVID: Let's say 2000 years hey, are you
the Messiah, yes or no?
O 9 2.
JIM: Uhhuh.
DAVID: You know, Christ kept denying it,
didn't he?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: And he kept referring, he said, you
know who I am.
JIM: Right. What did you say? I'm sorry,
David, hold on. What did you say? Did they pick up
Mark? Did they pick up Mark? He's safe? They've got
the puppies? Okay. Mark is in the ambulance and they
have the puppies.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: And he's safe. So --
DAVID: Well, have him give us a call when he
gets there.
JIM: He's going to get over here, you know.
I'll tell you now, just I want you to bear with me
on that because that, that highway is cra - you know,
there is about a billion news reporters there. So,
we'll get him over here.
DAVID: Getting more and more, huh?
JIM: Oh, it's, it's ~-
DAVID: It's funny how they all want to come.
You think they'd save some gas and all that and just
get it on a national line from two or three guys, huh.
JIM: Hey, is there, is there anybody else
0 I 2.
you want to send out? See, --
DAVID: Well, we're, we're going, we're going
to work this out. And like I'm saying --
JIM:That's good, good. I'm glad. Sita,
Sita I was concerned about because she, she was --
DAVID: Well, do you want to talk to her some
more?
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID:
know, she says,
hard for me.
JIM:
DAVIDWell, --
Go ahead and talk to her.
Is she there?
Yeah, she's right here.
Okay. Well, you stay --
She told me, she said, she says, you
David, she says, you know, it's getting
Yeah.
She says, you know, this, this last
time that I went out, she says, I, you know, I almost
didn't come back. And I told her, you know, I said,
Sita, you, you got to do what you got to do, you know.
JIM: Well, I --
DAVID: Go ahead and talk to her.
JIM:You're a man of your word and that's --
DAVID: Go ahead and talk to her. I don't
bind anybody.
JIM: I know. I know.'
i
' ' 25
DAVID: You know. What I believe is what I
teach and when I teach the truth, that's what binds
people together.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Now, if a person all of a sudden
doesn't see it that way, hey, --
JIM: Is she right there, David?
DAVID: Yes, she's here.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Here she is.
JIM: Okay. Well, don't you leave. I, I
want to talk to her right with you there but --
SITA: Jim?
JIM: Yeah, Sita. I was just talking to
David, you know, and he said you could go and, and
you're not - you heard him.
SITA: Yes. He told me the beginning when I
first brought my children down there, the first kids,
mine.
JIM: Right. Well, I think --
SITA: Well, he told me I can do ~- go with
them or stay.
JIM: Well, he loves you.
SITA: I know he loves me.
JIM: He loves you and he wants what's safe
for you. What, what --
U ' 2.
SITA: But the Book is there. I'm not I
don't remember everything he teach me but it's plain --
it's in black and white.
JIM: But listen but leaving doesn't
change anything. That doesn't change anything. If you
believe in him, you can't leave him. How could you
leave him if you believe in him? You couldn't leave
him. You're still with him. You're still with him.
SITA: Yes, I'm still with him but it's not
him. It's the Book.
JIM: I understand.
SITA: What he teaches.
JIM: Yeah. It's in your mind and in your
heart. It's not where your feet are, your mind and
your heart. These kids need you.
SITA: I need them, too, you don't know how
bad. Every time I go in --
JIM: Well, you, you need, you need to - if,
if David gives his blessing and he already did, then
you need to walk out and you will still be connected.
There's, there's no one on heaven and earth can break
that connection between you and him. And I'm not
trying. I wouldn't do it. But I want you to come out
and be safe with these kids. And he said you could.
SITA: Yes, he told me.
JIM: And, okay, then it's settled. I want"
O U 27
you to get your coat, and I want you to come down and
walk to that ambulance. Okay? I want you to kiss
David good-bye, and I want you to tell him how much you
love him and that you're not leaving him and that
you're with him always no matter what.
SITA: I'm ~
JIM: And that you will see him soon. Okay?
SITA: Jim?
JIM: Listen, it takes courage to do this but
you have it.
SITA: I don't have courage right now but I
-- what he's been teaching me --
JIM: Right.
SITA: -- I can't remember everything he
said. I always break what he's told me, every little
thing, I try but I keep going on the wrong path but
he's always - the Bible is there.
JIM: It's there.
SITA: The words.
JIM: I understand that. And he, and he, and
he the Book is there and he wants you to be happy.
SITA: He wants everybody to be happy. He
loves life very much.
JIM: He -- I know he does, and he's sending
those Bibles out with the children. They're carrying
the word. And you'll carry one with you, the word, and
O 9 2.
bring it out.
the
out
you
YOU
I'mSITA: well, I hope so because when I heard
news that they went to foster home --
JIM: well, you're not here.
SITA: Hey, I - when that trailer just came
in front of my door - room --
JIM: I know, Sita, but it's the past.
SITA: Who do you think I believe now?
JIM: I understand. I understand. We want
to tell your side. I want you to tell your side.
know what I mean? I feel real bad about it. I,
being honest with you. You know I'm being honest
with you. I feel real bad about it. I'm glad you
weren't hurt.
SITA: If they know there were kids and
children, how could they just come out of the trailer
andshoot?
JIM: Yeah, I understand. Well, it's going
to be fully investigated. You, you can be assured of
that. And if you've seen the news, you'll know that.
SITA: I saw some of the news.
JIM: Okay.
SITA: And the one -- the people from
Australia. They came and they see everything, what
they saw, and David talked to them, and they, they just
allto pieces -- been told. They just take one verse,
O 9 2.
what he said, and they just make him like he's an
addict or something.
JIM: Well, you know, Sita, yesterday -- I
know what you're saying. I the news media, you
know, twists and turns things. And the problem is, if
you guys were out, you could straighten a lot of that
out. It's hard to do from in there. But yesterday we
played the tape that made David made on the
Broadcast network.
SITA: Uhhuh.
JIM: And it was not edited. It was his
solid word for an hour.
SITA: No.
JIM: So, you know, it got out.
SITA: I that ~- I appreciate it because
JIM: It got out and you know it did.
SITA: Yes. I heard it, and I heard him
talking. It took him so much trying to do that tape.
JIM: Listen, he's a good guy, and he cares
for you, and you love him. And I think --
SITA: I love everybody here -~
JIM: I -
SITA: - and I love the people outside.
JIM: I know you do. And there's --
everybody out here wants you to be safe. And he'si
I 9 .0
given you his blessing.
SITA: He did. I was tempted to jump in the
van but, no.
JIM: Well, I know you wouldn't do that.
SITA: But there's lots of kids more here,
also. And there's people.
JIM: Well, bring, bring the --
SITA: The --
JIM: Bring the kids, if you want.
SITA: They haven't done anything. We just
learning about the Bible.
JIM: I understand.
SITA: And --
JIM: We're not saying you did anything.
We're not saying you did anything. We --
SITA: Then why was the two older ladies who
we heard it --
JIM: I dropped that. I had that taken care
of today, as soon as I heard about it. Now, listen,
Sita, --
SITA: I hope so.
JIM: I took care of it. well, let me,
let me explain what happened, okay, because you may not
know, okay. I talked to Steve this morning at 8:00,
okay, and you can ask him. And he said, Jim, I got a
report that two ladies were, were charged with murder1
I
1
I 9 .1
or conspiracy or something.
SITA: Yes.
JIM: So, I went over to the command post
over here and said, look, what's happened with two
ladies? I mean they were just inside. You know, you
can't charge them with that. And, and a couple of
those guys were arguing with him. I said, well, I want
that taken off, taken care of it. And I asked them if
they would do it and the commanders were all meeting.
Then they put what they did was, it was a material
witness. And that's --
SITA: What's that, material witness?
JIM: Well, it means protective custody,
okay.
SITA: Protective custody, I hope so.
JIM: Yeah, that's what it is. It means for
their protection, they're -- you know, safe, that's
all.
SITA: Margaret Lawson is - she have
arthritis and she's, she's - they're both gentle
ladies.
JIM: Yeah, I know they are. In fact, I met
one of them in the hallway and she was just a real
angel, a real sweet lady, and she brought, brought ~-
you come out, you'll see. You'll get good treatment
and I guarantee it. I guarantee you'll get goodi
1
I 9 .2
treatment. Now, get your coat -
SITA: - when all the tanks
They're nothing.
worried about them.
That's for the guys
shotJIM: Oh,are OD. US .
I know that. I know you're not
That's not, that's not for you.
in there. They don't want to be
SITA: So, it's that people down here?
JIM: No, it's just that we don't want
anybody else to be injured at all.
SITA: No, I don't want nothing happening to
JIM: That's right. We don't want nothing to
happen. And the only way that's going
got
get
you
Youto work it out. What I'd like you
your coat, get a couple of kids or
have David's blessing already, andto happen, we
to do, Sita, is
who you want,
come on out.
can trust me, you know you can. And bring your,
bring your Bible, bring your word, and you're still
connected with him. I, I don't see how that could
change anything between you and him.
SITA: Nothing will change.
JIM: Nothing will change.
SITA: Jim?
JIM: What?
SITA: Listen.
"' 33
JIM: Okay. Don't you trust me?
SITA: When I come out, I want everybody here
safe, not only me.
JIM: Well, I want everybody safe. And I'm
prepared to make those arrangements as soon as you want
to, immediately. In fact, I'd rather do it the sooner
the better. Don't you trust me, Sita? Huh?
SITA: I'm trusting you a little bit, but
right now --
JIM: Please trust -- don't you think you'll
be safe? Don't you know all those children are safe?
SITA: I hope so because I heard so much
stories on the news already.
JIM: Okay. I want to tell you something,
you hang around that telephone for awhile, okay?
SITA: Uhum.
JIM: Because Mark is coming over here to see
me. And he's 12 years old, right?
SITA: Yes.
JIM: Now, he's big enough to talk
SITA: Oh, yes, he's old enough to
JIM: You ask him how they treated
SITA: While he went out that gate
his clothes off.
JIM: Huh?
SITA: They took his jacket. TheyIto you.
talk.
him, okay?
they took
really
O Q 3.
check him good. He is a kid.
JIM: Yeah. Well, they're just trying to
make it safe. They don't want him to be injured. I --
you know, I don't -- I didn't see that part so I don't
know. He's going to be fine.
SITA: Darryl didn't do that to my kids.
JIM: N0.
SITA: Darryl was good.
JIM: Yeah. Darryl is good, yeah.
SITA: And some of the people I met.
JIM: Yeah. well, I understand. Well, I
want you to I want you to come out. I want you to
come out. I really do. I think you need to for your
children. I think you need to show the others that you
have some courage and that they should do the same
thing. You really need to. Somebody in there has got
to have the courage to come on out. I mean, I mean
it's time. I mean the Bible can come with you, your
word.
SITA: That's not the thing. We have the
courage to come out anytime we want.
JIM: Okay.
SITA: He gave us his blessing.
JIM: Well, will you come out now?
SITA: No, I'm sorry.
JIM: Okay. Okay. Well, I understand.
SITA: I'm - when this over, then I'll come
- we'll come out, a big family.35
JIM: Yeah. Well, is it - okay, Sita, is
there any others in there that you think might want to
walk out?
SITA: I beg your pardon?
JIM: Is there anybody else inside
think might want to walk out now?
SITA: Oh, be careful. Wait, wait
wait, wait. One of the kids
father and
JIM: Sita?
SITA: Yeah.
JIM: Is, is there
might want to come out? I'm
also who's wounded, Scott or
waiting awhile but before --trying to crawl
anybody else in
concerned about
I don't knowthat you
Wait,
on the
there that
anybody
if David's
the little babies, do they
want to come -- and their mothers - do they want to
come out?
SITA: I don't know. It's up to them to -- I
JIM: Well, would you ask them and - David
has given it his blessing, now. He's told me that.
SITA: Yes, he gave me when told me if I
wanted my kids out, and I said, yes.
JIM: Well, he wants you out if you want to
", " 36
walk out.
SITA: Yes. He said it's up to me. It's up
to me if I want to stay or not.
JIM: Right. well, I think you --
SITA: I don't know about the rest of the
people here.
JIM: Well, the kids want you and they need
you.
SITA: Hey, every time I go in my room, it
was - they would have been dead if I was - I didn't
go back. We just got finished service at the church
and I went in there.
JIM: Well, those babies need you. I'm
telling you, they need you. What are they going to do
without you?
SITA: I need them, too.
JIM: What are they going to do without you?
SITA: We were having a study and David, --
we just left study, worship, our worship hour. And we
went to the room and I went to the window. I don't
know what made me look in - out in the window.
JIM: But, Sita, --
SITA: But I went to the window. What I saw,
I cannot believe what I saw. I thought - was just a
movie or some kind. But when that shot came --
JIM: I understand. I understand. And
I ' .7
that's all natural, natural feelings to anyone who's
been through this.
SITA: I felt that because it got singed my
butt a little bit, just fly in my butt.
JIM: Well, --
SITA: On my left on my right one.
JIM: Well, I'll have a doctor look at you.
SITA: No, it just passed me, gave me a
bruise.
JIM: Well, I'd like you to come out and you
could, you could lead those kids and study out here.
You can calm them, you can love them. I mean, I'm
telling you, I'm telling you, you need to do it. You
need to come out. You come out and you tell the world
and he'll make sure that, that thing never happens
again like that. You tell your side, all of you. All
of you should come out and tell your side of what
happened. Who is going to tell it you don't tell it?
Huh? You guys need to come out. And it will be looked
into, every aspect of it, and everybody's actions will
be looked into. And I think it's time that, you know,
you all showed some good faith here and some peaceful
resolution here. Let's - then do it.
SITA: Yes. Excuse me. You have to talk to
David right now, okay?
JIM: Hey, listen, --
. ' as
SITA: Yes .
JIM: Sita? I know you realize that what
I'm saying is true, and I just want you to know that
you can trust me, and I will help you. And you can
make a difference, okay. And if you want to talk to me
later --
SITA: David Jim, I'm sorry.
JIM: That's okay, Sita.
SITA: You can make a difference, also.
JIM: well, I'm trying to make a difference.
SITA: Talk, talk to them.
JIM: I'm trying. I'm, I'm working a lot of
hours to try to make a difference.
SITA: Talk to them. Make them understand.
JIM: Nobody is going to hurt you. I - if
you come out, --
SITA: Nobody going to hurt us?
JIM: Nobody will hurt you.
SITA: They already did.
JIM: Well, not anymore.
SITA: Even though there's no wound in me, my
heart is already tearing apart, what, what I saw, what
happened.
JIM: I understand. I understand. There's a
lot of people, not only you and your people in there,
that feel real bad about what happened. A lot of
I U .9
people feel real bad about the whole situation. The
point is, it's over, and we don't need anymore trouble.
What we want now is to show that we can all resolve it
peacefully. And that's what the world is watching to
see. And that's what needs to be done for all these
beautiful children and these families and your group
and David. Come on, I mean this, this is your
beliefs and group, your word's got to go on. It's
going to go on. Do you realize the millions of people
that have seen about your group and the message?
SITA: Yes. The word will go on if you will
wait what the Lord have him to say.
JIM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Sita, I want you --
SITA: He's waiting.
JIM: I know.
SITA: He can't do it himself, either. He's
waiting what to do next.
JIM: I understand that. And I think that
he's waiting awhile and he's going to get that vision
again where he's feeling. And he's going to get that
conviction or how, however it comes to David cause,
cause, you know, I can't see how he receives it.
SITA: No, you don't know.
JIM: I don't know but when he does, you
know, the message may be, it's time David, gather your
flock and lead them out, walk out. And, and --
I U .0
SITA: You know, I wasn't in this message
when I first came. I don't believe it, I don't
understand it. I only came because my husband. when I
marry to him, I said for life or death.
JIM: Well, you know, taken --
SITA: And I just listen and listen, take me
two to three years, and I say this man crazy or what.
JIM: He's not crazy.
SITA: But I'm beginning to understand him
more day after day, month after month, listening to him
and watching him and the mercy he gives to us and
everything.
JIM: But the --
SITA: He, he tell us something and we do the
opposite.
JIM: Well, if that, if that is true, okay,
and that --
SITA: -- the word he teaches.
JIM: Well, if that bond is that strong and
that you love him that much, then you --
SITA: It's the words.
JIM: -- can't ever leave him no matter --
any way. Physically you can't. And if you walk out to
your children, you haven't left him. He's going to
come out, too. Taking the first step is difficult, but
you need to lead the way for the others to follow.
C Q .1
You're, you're the one who's had the courage to bring
those children out. You've had it. That was a very
difficult thing. But you got on the phone with me and
we talked and I asked you to trust me and you said,
yeah, I will.
SITA: Yes, I --
JIM: And you came back every time. We
didn't have any tricks or anything. You know that.
SITA: Well, there was one couple, I, I
thought that they was going to grab me.
JIM: They weren't, though. They didn't.
They could have done that. They didn't do it.
SITA: They were -- I don't know. My
instincts got feeling where -- I don't know. I didn't
feel it with the rest of the people who I met.
JIM: I remember we talked about that after
but that was I think more your feeling of maybe the way
they looked, but they didn't they were under
instructions not to, to just let the children come out.
You know, from all our conversations and my discussions
with David, I know, I understand what's going on in
there. And I understand a little bit. I can't maybe
understand as well as you guys do. I'm not saying
that.
SITA: Then --
JIM: But I think that you're, you're one in
spirit with him. I mean you, you hav
with him. And I just feel like it's
if it, if it was a - not real, then,
out would mean - would, would be a b
you'd be leaving him but if it's real
leaving him. It can't be leaving him
one in the spirit. And he's going to
come out and then he's going to watch
they do come out, and then he's going42
e a connection
so strong. If it,
you know, walking
ig deal cause
, that isn't
because you're
see his people
over the flock as
to come out, too.
SITA: The people here are not bonded. Even
in the study, if you want to leave, y
JIM: I know that.
SITA: He told them all the
they make something wrong, say, whatou can go.
times -- when
are you doing
here? why not just leave. We don't listen. But our
of flesh wants something that we w
it.
JIM: Oh, I know you're not
against your --ant and we'll take
held there
SITA: There's nobody -- anybody can get out
of here if they want to.
JIM: Well, just walk out the door. I know
that. You're not held there. I'm not saying you're
held there. I know, I know exactly you're there
because you feel like you want to be there or you feel
like is leaving the right thing to do . But if you --
C Q .3
it's the right thing to do and it is for your children.
SITA: Yeah. And when Robert --
JIM: And it is for --
SITA: When we first met Robert -- because at
that - across the street, that somethings going on
and that -- he, he came our house. We being nice,
friendly, talking to him, we talked. And he did this.
JIM: Uhhum. I understand. I understand.
And I know how you feel about that. I can, I can
appreciate the fact that you feel like he --
SITA: I want to understand why he - why?
JIM: Yeah. I know. I know what you're
saying. I can understand how you feel about it. I
sympathize with it. How old are you, Sita?
SITA: How old I am?
JIM: Yeah. How old are you?
SITA: I'm thirty-four.
JIM: Thirty-four.
SITA: And then one of the reporters told me
thought I was eleven years old.
JIM: Oh, heck. They haven't gotten anything
right during this whole thing.
SITA: Hey, I may be small. I got two kids.
JIM: Yeah. Yeah. Well, those kids are
great, I'm telling you. They're great. They're all
doing real well.
Q U ..
SITA: Well, sometimes I act like an eleven
year old kid because they're the same height as me. So
JIM: We all act like kids sometimes.
SITA: I'm not an adult to them.
JIM: No. I can understand. Maybe that's
why they can get with you easier and work with you
easier, huh? That's good. That's good. I want you
to, I want you to think about what we talked about and
SITA: Right now excuse me, but I'll give
you to David right now, okay?
JIM: But, remember, the children really need
you. Trust me.
SITA: Yes. The only thing right now is if I
can hear some of the kids because all different
stories. They said they were separate and going
different ways.
JIM: Well, come out and you can find out
about it. I mean come out and be with it, confront it,
face it head on, come on.
SITA: I want if there's -- hello?
JIM: Yeah, I'm sorry. The - I bumped my
line here.
SITA: Is there anyway I can talk to them?
JIM: If you come out, uhhuh, if you come --
I C 45
SITA: If I come out?
JIM: Uhhuh.
SITA: I'll be worrying over here also.
JIM: Well, I know, but if you come out - I
mean that's, that's the thing to do. And you'll be
able to deal, deal with - about the children and be
able to help them and be a strength for them and a
strength and a representative for David until he comes
out. And he is coming out. He's told me he was.
SITA: Yes. And he does give his word.
JIM: And he does give his word. He keeps
his word.
SITA: He keeps his word.
JIM: And right now, he's waiting awhile and
he'll be out soon, too, and you'll be reunited. And,
you know, I think you guys need to bond together in
there and decide that the hard thing to do is come out
Cause the first step is hard, but it takes courage.
But I know you have that courage. I want you to, I
want you to use it, you know, and use it for David's
sake and come on out. And talk to some of those other
mothers, some of those men who have an injury, too. I
mean they need to get treated, you know.
SITA: Hey, the men who are injured?
JIM: Uhhuh.
SITA: They're beautiful.I
F
I Q .6
JIM: They are.
SITA: They're handling is so good.
JIM: Oh, I know they are. I know you're
proud of them.
SITA: They haven't --
JIM: And they're brave and they're standing
up and being strong for you, but they still need to
have medical treatment. Nobody is so strong that they
don't need medical treatment and don't --
SITA: They're having medical treatment right
now.
JIM: Well, I understand. I understand.
SITA: It's only David that doesn't want
anything.
JIM: Yeah.
SITA: He's taking the pain on himself.
JIM: Yeah. I understand. Well, Sita, I
want you to take a deep breath and relax and --
SITA: Well, I'm shaking.
JIM: I know you are. I know you are and I'm
sorry that that's the way you feel but take --
SITA: I'm fine.
JIM: Okay. Your kids need you. They need
their mother. And those other children need their
mothers.
SITA: I'm not shaking because I'm scared.
O O 47
JIM: I know that.
SITA: But because --
JIM: It's a difficult situation.
SITA: -- of the situation, what happened.
JIM: It's very difficult. And all your
feelings are normal. Anyone would feel the same way
that's been through this and it's normal. All your
reactions are perfectly normal. And that's the way
anyone feels that's been through something like this.
But it's time for us now to all gather up, safely
resolve it and that's what all the press is out there
for, waiting to get David's word, see this group of
beautiful people make the right decision to come out.
I mean show them that. I want you to show them that
you're not violent. You told me you're not. Right?
SITA: I never seen --
JIM: Right.
SITA: I may have fight with my brothers when
I __
JIM: I know. That's what I -- why don't you
show, show them that?
SITA: But I never seen a shootout the way it
was like this.
JIM: Right. And I want -- and you will show
them what's in your hearts when you walk out and say,
we are peaceful people and this shouldn't have
I O .8
happened. Then you can tell your side of it.
SITA: It wouldn't have happened.
JIM: And, and I understand that. But, you
know, that's, that's a sign you're going to be given
about your intentions during this thing. And that's a
sign that, look, this is the kind of people we are.
We're walking out. And that's what, that's what I want
you to do.
SITA: I'll walk out --
JIM: Okay. Well, come out now.
SITA: when I'm ready.
JIM: Qkay. Well, think about it. Think
about it.
SITA: He doesn't - he gave me the freedom
of choice like anybody else in here, that we can go or
not.
JIM: I know but even if you're not ready to
come out now, the kids need you. Oh, Mark is here.
Hold on, Sita.
SITA: Uh-hum.
JIM: You can talk to him and ask him how he
was treated.
end of tape!'
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #30
3/3/93
I'm sorry
to Mark.JIM:
SITA:
SITA:
JIM:
SITA:
MARK:
SITA:
MARK:
SITA:
MARK:
SITA:Sita?
Yes. Here's Mark. Hold on a minute.
Hello?
Yeah, hey, I'm still here. Here, talk
Mark?
Yeah.
How you doing, boy?
Fine.
Did they treat you pretty good?
Yeah.
Wait. Dave, do you want to talk to
Mark? wait, okay?
they toldMARK:
SITA:
DAVE:
MARK:
DAVE:
MARK:
DAVE:
MARK:
DAVE:
you to
MARK:
DAVE:All right.
Dad's here.
Hello.
Hello.
Hello, Mark.
Hi.
How you doing, buddy?
Fine.
That's good. Did you do everything
do, like I told you?
Yeah.
You okay?
O I 3
MARK:
DAVE:
MARK:
DAVE:
MARK:
DAVE:
about Jim.
MARK:
DAVE:
the kids there?
MARK:
DAVE:
MARK:
DAVE:
MARK:
and a candy bar
DAVE:
MARK:
tank thing.
DAVE:
MARK:
JIM:
DAVE:
MARK:
DAVE:
MARK:Yeah.
Okay.
I'm with Jim, Jim.
You're with who?
Jim.
Jim. Oh. Yeah, I've heard a lot
Fine.
Are all the kids there? Huh? Are all
I don't know.
Oh.
The agents treated us real good.
They did?
Yeah. Yeah. And they gave me a soda
That's good.
And a ride in that, that tank, that
Yeah.
It was, it was neat but it was bumpy.
I'll work on that for you, Dave.
Pardon?
He said he'll work on that.
Oh.
He said he'll try to work on that with
I U 4
the bumpy ride
DAVE: Well, just remember, son, that God
sits on a throne and his word is his word and do the
best of your ability.
MARK
DAVE
MARK
DAVE
SITA
MARK
SITA
MARK
SITA
MARK
SITA:
MARK
SITA
MARK
took me to -- down on the road where -- down in -- putOkay. Can I talk to Sita?
And do what you're told. Hey --
Bye.
Hey, Sita.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi, Mark.
Hello.
Are you okay?
Yeah.
They didn't treat you bad?
No. They treated me good.
Okay. What did they do to you?
They, they put me in that tank and
me in the van and brought me here.
SITA
MARK
SITA
MARK
SITA
MARKIs the kids over there?
I'm with Jim.
You're with Jim?
Huh?
So, you're okay, baby?
Yeah.
bar.
it's Mark.
Nobody is
noise over
tell them
talk to th
make sureSITA:
MARK:
SITA:
He's
MARK:
SITA:
MARK:
going
SITA:
here.
MARK:
SITA:
MARK:
SITA:
I love
MARK:
SITA:
em?
MARK:
SITA:
they'r
MARK:
JIM:
SITA:
JIM:That's good.
And they gave me a soda and a candy
Make sure don't eat pork now. No,
with Jim right now.
Jim said to come on out.
Jim said to come out? We will.
He said it's okay, come on out.
to hurt anybody.
Wait, just a minute. It's too much
Hey, Mark?
Huh?
I love you. You be good boy, okay?
Okay.
And if, if you see some of the kids,
them.
Okay.
Can you tell Jim is there anyway I c
Who?
Is there anyway I can talk to them t
e all together?
All right. Here's Jim.
Sita?
Yes.
Okay. He's, he's fine. He's right5
an
O
O U 6
here. And --
SITA: Yeah, he sounds fine.
JIM: He's fine. The agents got him a soda
and candy bar. He's doing great.
SITA: And that's good.
JIM: He's all smiles from riding in that
tank he calls it. He said it was real bumpy but it was
neat.
SITA: Oh, they love playing those toys.
JIM: Yeah. He said, he said he didn't think
it would be that bumpy.
SEDER: What do you mean, they're bumpy? I
thought they were smooth.
JIM: I guess it's cause of those tracks or
something, you know. Tell David I said I cannot fix
the bumpy ride.
SITA: I guess it's the I don't know.
JIM: Those, those roller things, you know.
SITA: Oh.
JIM: He's all smiles. He looks great.
SITA: How's the pups?
JIM: You know, I didn't -- I don't think
they brought them in this room. I don't seem them.
So, I guess they're okay. They gave them to one of the
animal officers.
SITA: The animal officer?
JIM: Yeah, to take care of.
SITA: They just only a week old.
JIM: Yeah, I know. They'll, they'll feed 4
them and square them away. They'll take care of them.
SITA: Yeah, I was surprised they were still
alive.
JIM: Okay. Well, listen, I really
appreciate your helping us with Mark and everything.
He just looks like somebody took the whole world off
his shoulders. I think he was getting scared, you
know. He look, he looks real good.
SITA: That's good.
JIM: S0 --
SITA: You want to talk to your brother? He
sister want to talk to him.
JIM: Oh, wait -- is he did he leave?
Just for one second. Yeah, let him talk to his sister
Yeah, let him talk to his sister before he goes. Okay
Hey, Sita? Sita? Hello?
HEATHER: Mark?
JIM: What - hold on, this is Jim. Who's
this? Who's this?
HEATHER: Heather.
JIM: Heather. How old are you?
HEATHER: Nine.
JIM: Nine. Okay. Do you want to come out7
I
with Mark?
Mark, talk
me?
know. ByeHuh?
HEATHER: I want to speak to Mark.
JIM: Okay. Mark's right here. Come here,
to Heather for a minute.
MARK: Hello.
HEATHER: Hi.
MARK: Are you going to come?
HEATHER: I don't know.
MARK: Huh. How come you wanted to talk to
HEATHER: Are you all right?
MARK: Yeah. You there?
HEATHER: Yes. Is it nice there?
MARK: Yeah.
HEATHER: Is it a, is it a house?
MARK: I don't -- not really.
HEATHER: Not really.
MARK: Yeah, it's kind of like an airport.
HEATHER: Airport? Airport?
MARK: I think it is an airport. I don't
HEATHER = Bye .
MARK: Come see me.
HEATHER: Huh?
MARK: Come see me when you can.
HEATHER = Okay .
Q Q 9
MARK: Bye.
HEATHER: -- wants to talk to you.
JIM: Heather?
HEATHER: What?
JIM: Hello. Are you there?
HEATHER: YeS.
JIM: Okay. Do you - when you want to come
out, you tell your Daddy, okay?
HEATHER: Okay.
JIM: Is your Daddy there?
HEATHER: Yes.
JIM: Okay. Let me talk to him.
HEATHER: Huh?
JIM: Is your Daddy there?
HEATHER: Yeah.
JIM: Let me talk to him. Is it -- what's
your Daddy's name? Let me talk to him.
HEATHER: Here he is.
JIM: Okay.
CYRUS: Hi, Mark.
JIM: Who's this?
CYRUS: Cyrus.
JIM: Oh, Cyrus. All right. You can say
hello. This is Jim. Hold on, Cyrus.
MARK: Hello.
CYRUS: How you doing?
0 U .0
MARK: Fine.
CYRUS:
MARK:
CYRUS: What?
MARK: I'm with
CYRUS: Are you
MARK: Uhhuh.
lots of planes out front,
CYRUS: Can you
MARK: What?Jim
I'm
out
seeIs it nice over there?
So far. I'm with Jim.
at the -- where he is.
at the airport. There's
back, or whatever.
any taking off?
CYRUS: Do you see any taking off?
MARK: No. Cyrus, I went in a tank.
CYRUS: Huh?
MARK: I went in a big old armored vehicle
there that was at the gate. Did you see it? Did you
see it, one of them big old tank like things?
CYRUS: Yeah. were you kind of nervous?
MARK: No. It was bumpy. That was the only
thing. Yeah, and the guys were nice, too.
CYRUS: What?
MARK: The guys were nice.
CYRUS: The guy was nice?
MARK: Yeah, the two guys that picked me up
first. Come on out when you can, if you can.
CYRUS: I think I can.
MARK: All right; Bye.
JIM:
CYRUS
JIM:C 9 11
Hello?
Hi.
Who's this, Heather?
CYRUS: Cyrus.
JIM:Cyrus. Oh, this is Jim. You come out
when you can. And, let's see, who else is around
there? Is Dave
CYRUS
JIM:
CYRUS
JIM:
CYRUS
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:Huh?
Is, is -- who's there? Is David there?
Yeah.
Let me talk to him.
Okay.
Hello.
Hey, David.
Hello.
Mark's here. He's fine.
Okeydoke.
And he just talked to everybody. And
he, he looks real good. He's all smiles.
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
JIM:He got a ride in that tank.
DAVID: Yeah. I think it was a troop carrier
or something, wasn't it?
him yet?JIM:
DAVIDYeah. He said that -- did you talk to
N0.
I 9 .2
JIM: All right, hold on, and he'll tell you
about it. Hold on. Here, Mark, this is David.
MARK: Hello.
DAVID: What was it like?
MARK: well, it was -- when I went up there,
they just told me to put my stuff down and then they
went through it and stuff and checked and stuff. And
then they put me in that tank like thing and drove me
further up the road, further down the road. And it
was, it was real bumpy.
DAVID: It was a heavy, heavy duty, heavy
duty thing, wasn't it?
MARK: Uh-huh.
DAVID: That was good.
MARK: And they were nice. They're really
nice.
DAVID: Oh, they'll be nice, you know.
People in the world are nice, too. Remember that.
They just don't know what we know, right? They just
don't believe in the Seals. They don't know about
them. Okey-doke. Is Jim still there?
MARK: Yeah.
DAVID: Okay. we'll talk to you later.
MARK: Bye.
DAVID: Be good boy. Bye.
JIM: Hey, David?
Q U 1.
DAVID
JIM:
MARK:
JIM:
and a soda.
DAVID
JIM:
the airport and
know.
DAVID:
JIM:
them.
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:Yeah.
He's fine.
Oh, yeah,
Yeah, they
Oh, yeah.
So we're
you can see
Oh, yeah.
So, him and
Yeah.
Cyrus says,
Yeah, youhe's
just
out
alla good one.
gave him a candy bar
here in a building near
the airplanes, you
Cyrus were talking about
did you see them take off?
know how kids are.
And they love that stuff. He said that
tank's bumpy, he said.
DAVID
see it on shows
JIM:
awhile and, you
think and --
DAVID
JIM:
DAVIDWell, it's a heavy duty vehicle. You
Yeah. Okay. Well, I talked to Sita
know, she just kind of little sad, I
Well, you know, like I say ~-
- missing the kids, you know.
- I'm liable to have you talking to
some of these women every once in awhile that have, you
O I ,4
know, -- their kids over. So that way, you know, they
can hear both sides. That's where this -- that's the
way I teach the truth, Jim.
JIM: Well, that's good.
DAVID: Is I always -- I've always sat down
with people --
JIM: Well, I appreciate that, David.
DAVID: - and I've presented my side. Then
I've always told them, I've said, now, look, go out
there and the truth only shines brighter in the light
of controversy.
JIM: When that -- when those -- when David
just came out and, and some of these ladies you're
talking about come out, those, those newspaper people
will be making a big story about that and about you,
you know.
DAVID: Well, look, you see, you -- Jim --
JIM: I'm just telling you what's going to
happen.
DAVID: Yeah. You know, me, don't worry
about me.
JIM: I'm just -- I'm not -- I'm just talking
about --
DAVID: I'm saying, don't worry -- I'm not,
I'm not doing this to make a name for myself. Let me
I U 15
JIM: Oh, I know that.
DAVID: Let me, let me explain something to
you realistically, okay?
JIM: Uh-huh.
DAVID: When you come up here, Jim, and you
look up here, you know, you can only in your mind just
imagine -- that's why the Bible calls it faith.
JIM: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Because, you know, there is no way
you could really imagine what really up here there is,
you know.
JIM: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And like I say, you know, with your
most powerful telescopes you can just barely begin to
uncode the mysteries of Orion, you know, the great
horse head of the universe, right?
JIM: Right.
DAVID: You know, there's a reason why the,
the -- Orion is a horse head.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: And there's a reason why there's,
there's phases of coloration that comes from it.
JIM: Uh-huh.
DAVID: You know. White, red, black, pale,
you know.
JIM: Right.
O U 1.
DAVID: There's a meaning to this
constellation and Pleiades . Anyway, what I'm trying
to say --
JIM: I understand. I understand
DAVID: -- is, is it - is that when --
JIM: when you're ready to send them out, you
will.
DAVID: No, what I'm saying is this, when
you're up hither and you see the father give the Book
to the lamb, if the lamb ever decides to come back to
this world, that's the last thing in the world the lamb
is going to want, and that's any kind of glory and vain
glory from the world, I mean, you know.
JIM: well, the only --
DAVID: When God is ready to speak -
JIM: Hey, David, the only thing I meant by
telling you the press is the only thing I'm trying
to tell you is that you'll be able to help me set the
record straight with them, you know.
DAVID: Oh, well, the -
JIM: You know how the press is. That's all
I __
DAVID: You know God is
straight. You know how the press
prophets, you know, Daniel's told
certain period he'll stand in hisgoing to
is. You
that the
lot withset it
know, the
end of a
the rest of
O O 1,
the prophets. Daniel's told by Gabriel, the vision
that you're going to see is for many days.
JIM: Well, I, I know, I know. I know how
the press people do.
DAVID: You know, but I'm saying that -- but
I'm saying the prophets are press, too, you know.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: They're giving you a hot scoop but
it's on the future.
JIM:
DAVID:
what's happened
JIM:
DAVID:
going to happen
JIM:
DAVID:
happens.
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
thumb now.
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:Yeah, but --
I mean the, the press today tells you
Yeah.
But the prophets tell you what's
Yeah.
So you can get
I understand. I
Hey, Bobby, --
Bobby?
this, this
Who's her mommy?
Rachel.
Rachel.the scoop before it
understand.
she always sucks her
. ' l8
DAVID: That's Cyrus little sister.
JIM: Yeah. Oh.
DAVID: Second sister.
JIM: Do you want to send Cyrus and Rachel
out?
DAVID: Oh, we're going to work that out.
Well, he wants -- wait a second.
RACHEL: HellO?
JIM: Rachel?
RACHEL: Yes.
JIM: This is Jim.
RACHEL: Hello.
JIM: How are you doing?
RACHEL: Oh, I'm doing okay.
JIM: Do you want to come out?
RACHEL: Do I want to come out?
JIM: Yeah. Do you want to walk out? I just
Mark just did.
RACHEL: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the rest.
JIM: I said, Mark, Mark just walked out.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JIM: Do you feel like you want to come out?
RACHEL: NO.
JIM: No. Okay. I mean you'll be safe.
RACHEL: Oh, really.
JIM: Yeah.
Q U .9
RACHEL: Well, I don't doubt that.
JIM: No, you will be. I'm sure.
RACHEL: Yeah, but what am I going to?
JIM: Well, I mean, you're going to somewhere
safe. It's not safe in there, you know. We don't want
anything to happen to you.
RACHEL: Well, --
JIM: That's what I'm concerned about.
RACHEL: What I believe in is here. So --
JIM: Well, I understand, but if you believe
just walking down this road doesn't make you not
believe. David said anybody who wanted to leave was,
you know, was free to go.
RACHEL: Yeah, but I don't want to leave. I,
I, I know, I already know that. He doesn't force
anyone to do anything.
JIM: Yeah. Oh, I know that.
RACHEL: People can do what they want to do.
JIM: Oh, I'm not, I'm not implying that. I
know he doesn't. I know you all are free to go. I
just thought some people might be a little reluctant to
come because, you know, they're just apprehensive. And
Sita told me, you know, she wanted to bring the - send
the word out to her children, the Bible, and so forth.
Is there any other mothers in there who want to come
out, some of the mothers of these children that have,
U I .0
that have come out already?
RACHEL: No, no one wants to come out. If,
if they did, they would be out there right now.
JIM: Oh, okay. Okay. Well, I -- yesterday
afternoon,
RACHEL: Sorry?you know, David was fixing to come.
JIM: I said yesterday afternoon David was
fixing to come out.
RACHEL: Wait a minute. These --
different
JIM: Okay. Okay. I understand.
RACHEL: Now, can you repeat that
JIM: I said, you know, yesterday
David was getting ready to come out.
RACHEL: Yes. Well, you know, we
to come out. We were all ready.
JIM: Right.
RACHEL: I mean the kids were all
and --
JIM: Right.I got three
people here talking and I can't hear.
again?
afternoon
were going
together
RACHEL: - we were on our way out. He was
changing his clothes, getting ready to get a stretcher,
you know, taking off his bloody jeans and whatever.
JIM: How did that stretcher work? Did it
work good?
RACHEL: The stretcher?
C U .1
JIM: Yeah.
RACHEL: Yeah, it's still folded out here.
JIM: Okay.
RACHEL: Right beside him.
JIM: Well, good. I'm glad. I didn't know
if it was going to be the right -- big enough or, you
know, would give you any difficulties.
RACHEL: I think it's okay.
JIM: It's okay?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JIM: Well, I was hoping he might, you know,
get the message or feeling, you know, to gather you
guys together and walk out, you know. Let's kind of
reach a resolution, you know. I don't want anybody
else to get hurt, you know. I think we can do that.
RACHEL: You don't want anybody else to what?
JIM: I don't want anyone else to be hurt.
RACHEL: Yeah. Well, I don't either.
JIM: Well, I know that. And I'd like to see
some of those men get some medical treatment,
especially David.
RACHEL: Uhhuh .
JIM: And he's not -- doesn't seem to feel
like he needs it but I think he does. I'm waiting.
RACHEL: Well, he is getting better.
JIM: Yeah. All
22
RACHEL: The wounds are looking better.
They're healing over.
JIM: Yeah. They're healing over, but he
still can't walk?
RACHEL: Well, I think it's a nerve thing. I
don't know. I mean I'm not a physician so I don't
know. He's had problems with his legs before, you
know, with his back and whatever.
JIM: Yeah.
RACHEL: So, I think it did something to his
nerves and triggered, triggered it again --
JIM: Yeah.
RACHEL: you know, in his leg.
JIM: Well, it might could be fixed, you
know.
RACHEL: I'm sorry?
JIM: I said we might could get it fixed if
he - if we could get him out.
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
JIM: I'd hate for it to be, you know, it
would be something that we could have a doctor, you
know, a good doctor could fix. Wouldn't want him to be
where he couldn't walk or something. You know, I'm
just concerned about him. I'm just telling you how I
feel. I'm just concerned about him. And I'd just like
to see him get some attention. I know he's got strong
O U .3
convictions and we've talked at length. And I
understand all that, and I appreciate it. But I don't,
I don't want you guys to, to change any of that. And
you wouldn't even if I asked you anyway. And I
wouldn't ask you. I just want you to, you know, kind
of hang in there with me and see if we can reach a
resolution, you know.
RACHEL: I thought they took you off of this
-- I don't really know what to call it. I wouldn't
call it a case. But I --
JIM: Well, --
RACHEL: -- thought they took you out of it.
JIM: -- I got in a little trouble yesterday.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah, because, you know, the message,
you know, the agreement that David made and that you
guys would come out after the Christian Broadcast
Network and -- see, what's happened today is the
Christian Broadcast Network's got thousands of phone
calls about David's tape and people expressing interest
in it and all that stuff.
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
JIM: But there's been a lot of people now
saying, well, but he didn't do what he said, you know.
They starting to doubt, you know, that he didn't do
what he said. So, they're wanting - you know, they're
O C ,4
just kind of looking, watching, you know.
RACHEL: Well, why don't they let him talk on
the radio and ask him some of those questions?
JIM: Well, we did. We gave him a solid I
mean he, he said --
RACHEL: I mean after that hour tape?
JIM: Oh, well, I mean the radio stations
don't, you know, they're saying, what do you mean? He
said he'd do this if we played the tape and we played
the tape. He didn't do it, you know.
RACHEL: Yeah, well, they're kind of in the
dark about what's going on.
JIM: Yeah. Well, I, I understand but, you
know, you've got to give - you've got to give people
room to understand, too, you know.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JIM: And, and you know yourself that - and
David has told me this 20 times is --
RACHEL: Uh-oh, someone's touching the phone.
JIM: Hello .
RACHEL: Yeah. I was just -- somebody must
have touched it. It's really a poor line.
JIM: You know, David's told me at least 20
times that I know that, you know, he can't explain all
his teachings in an hour. I mean it's not possible.
RACHEL: No, it, it takes a long time.
O I 25
JIM: It takes a long time. And I don't
think, you know, you can't expect the radio station to
do it in an hour either.
RACHEL: That's true.
JIM: S0, --
RACHEL: I mean that, that's not even --
that's not even --
JIM: It's barely a beginning, you know.
RACHEL: Yeah. It's not even hardly a
beginning at all. I mean --
JIM: Right. But, but, but out here, I mean,
he's, he's the most sought after man in the country
from these reporters and the whole world out here
wanting to see when he comes out.
RACHEL: Yeah, good and bad, both.
JIM: Well, you know, some of them are just
press hounds but if he comes out, you know, he's going
to be able to deliver his message. Everybody wants to
hear what's he got to say.
RACHEL: Oh, they do that kind of stuff in
jail, huh?
JIM: Well, they do it everywhere. Are you
kidding? He's the biggest story in the world.
RACHEL: Well, tell me, what kind of -- I
mean I heard there are, you know, a lot of reporters.
From what countries do they come? I know some come
I U 2.
from London.
JIM: Well, there are, there are London,
Australia, New Zealand. I mean, I never saw so many --
did you see that press conference at noon? I let David
-- I told -- did you see it?
RACHEL: Uhhuh. Yes.
JIM: Did you see all those people?
RACHEL: Well, how many do you think were in
there?
JIM: Oh, hundreds.
RACHEL: Well, I couldn't - I didn't see
that many then because, you know, they, they just show
shots of a big group of people, you know, they don't --
I didn't see how many were in there, total.
JIM: It was hundreds.
RACHEL: Cause what I saw was just a close-
up. So, --
JIM: CNN I mean NBC, ABC, CBS, BBC. I
mean it, it was unbelievable. I've never seen that
many, many reporters.
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
JIM: And they were all out there on the
highway down there.
RACHEL: Uhhuh.
JIM: You know, waiting for you guys to walk
out. It's, it's a major event for them, you know.
O O 2,
But, anyway, I -- you know, we don't control those
T.V., newspapers, magazines, all those radios. You
know that.
RACHEL: You know, I just want to say they
said that we got a telephone call that tipped us off to
that -- you were coming and that, that's not true.
JIM: No, I know. Yeah. Well, they have a
lot of inaccuracies, I think. And that's something
that David has been bothered with and you got to
understand that they do that, you know.
RACHEL: Uh-huh .
JIM: And, and, and that's another --
RACHEL: Well, they said a lot of things just
like the other night -- I don't remember what night it
was -- the buses left, right?
JIM: Uhhuh.
RACHEL: And they said that -- we thought we
were on them. They thought that we had gone from here.
I mean --
JIM: I know it. I know - hey, I, I saw
that, too. I went -- I saw that, too, when I turned
the T.V. on that night. And I was pretty down that
night because, you know, you guys didn't come out. And
I turned the T.V. on and there's a reporter saying, and
all the people come out on this bus here.
RACHEL: Uh-huh .
JIM: You know, they just make up stuff,
know.
RACHEL: Yeah, they, they jump to
conclusions, I guess.
JIM: Yeah. So, you know, just when you
that stuff, I mean, you just bear with us. I mean
not accurate. You know it's not accurate.
RACHEL: Right.
JIM: You know, give me a call and we'll
you the straight story.
RACHEL: Right.
JIM: You know. I --
RACHEL: Steve wants to talk to you, okay
JIM: Okay.
RACHEL: All right, Bye, bye.
JIM: Bye.
STEVE: Hello, Jim?
JIM: Hey, Steve, how you --
STEVE: Hey, I've got a request.
JIM: Okay.28
you
see
it's
tell
?
STEVE: There was dogs that the agents shot
in the front yard there.
JIM: Uh-huh.
STEVE: They're, they're starting to smell.
They're such a stench and so forth. We need to have a
guy or two at least pull them away toward the field or
O O ,9
dig a hole or do something.
JIM: Well, okay. Let me check on that.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Do you --
there andyou mean you want to go out
do it yourself?
STEVE: Well, unless I, I would imagine,
you know, I mean, there, you know, a couple of guys
here are willing to do it.
JIM: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
STEVE: The one guy, you know, took care of
them from the time they
you know, I, I think he
go bury them.
JIM: Yeah, I
let me, let me check on
STEVE: Okay.--bought them as puppies and,
wanted to take care of them and
understand that. Well, let,
it, Steve.
JIM: And I'll, I'll get back.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: I don't
request.
STEVE: Yeah.think that's an unreasonable
JIM: You know, certainly, I, I think that's
reasonable.
STEVE: Yeah, you know, what they do is
probably just put them on something, drag them right
away or where they can be seen right out in the front
O O .0
or something, at least away from the building
JIM:
unreasonable.No, I, I don't think that's
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM:Let me, let me work on that for you.
STEVE: Oh, oh, and David's asking me, well,
are they going to connect them with Robert or --
JIM:well, we've had difficulty finding
Robert. He's not in town anymore.
STEVE: He's not? He's not, huh?
JIM:He's been -- he was dismissed by, you
know, by his supervisor on some other detail. He's not
here.
STEVE
JIM:
here, you know.
STEVE
that's okay.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
funny or I mean
JIM:Right.
So, I can't get him. He's not even
Well, I mean I know you could but
Well, I mean I --
I mean if it's, if it's a problem and
Yeah.
- it will make you look kind of
No, no, that's not it. I don't care.
I mean, you know, if --
O I .1
STEVE: He may not want to converse anyway.
JIM: Well, he -- you're right. I mean he
may not but I mean --
STEVE: I would be -- I mean if you can, why
don't you give, you know, have one of the guys give him
a call and see if he would even want to. If he
wouldn't, you know, he'd respect that.
JIM: Yeah. Okay. Well, I don't mind --
STEVE: Yeah. That would put an end to that
anyway quickly.
JIM: I don't think he's, you know, he's
certainly not mad at you guys.
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: He doesn't have --
STEVE: Well, I know he wouldn't be because
we didn't show him any, anything at all.
JIM: No. No. And he's not -- he, he
doesn't have any animosity as far as --
STEVE: Of course not. Rachel is right here.
I guess what I'll do is I'm going to go down and talk
to the guy that was wanting to move those things away.
So --
JIM: Well, tell him not to do it unless --
STEVE: No, no, that's what I mean.
JIM: Cause I --
STEVE: He's just asking about, he says, we
O I 32
should at least do something with them. And I said,
well, yeah, okay.
JIM: Well, let's, let's clear, clear, clear
it first with me but I'll work on it.
STEVE: All right.
JIM: To communicate with the commanders over
there.
STEVE: Right.
JIM: And - are you guys going to be around
the phone awhile there?
STEVE: Yeah. There's definitely going to be
somebody around here. I was just going to put on a
warmer shirt than I have on right now.
JIM: Okay. Mark came out and -- with the
puppies.
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM: Mark --
STEVE: Oh, yeah, yeah, I was -- in fact, I
went and pat him on the back and everything.
JIM: He's, he's a cute kid, I'm telling you.
STEVE: Yeah, he's a nice kid.
JIM: He, he, he said --
STEVE: I, I mean I guess, you know, I kind
of thought we showed you what we're really about right
from Sunday on but I, I --
JIM: Well, you are.
I O 3.
STEVE: Yeah, I know, but I mean, you know,
the procedure they go through with this little kid, the
way they had him --
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
doesn't even as
tank and --
JIM:
STEVEOh, I know. I'm embarrassed.
-- checked out.
Hey, I'm embarrassed by that.
I know you are. I know you are.
I am. I really feel bad about that.
There's a big tank and they -- a shoe
much as come around the corner of the
Oh, I know it.
-- the kid's got to take his backpack
off but, anyway.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
just --
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:Hey, frankly, I'm embarrassed.
Yeah, I know.
When, when he told me that here, I was
Oh, they, they told you that?
Well, Mark told me.
Oh, did he really?
Yeah.
Oh, no kidding.
I said, Mark, did they treat you good?
He said, yeah, they treated me real good. He said but
they made me take off my jacket or lay my stuff down.
I I 34
STEVE: Oh, there's someone stepping on the
chord. Yeah. So, he's okay, then?
JIM: Yeah, he's fine. And --
STEVE: That's good.
JIM: - he just come over here and he talked
to David and Sita and Cyrus and his, his daddy is --
what -- his daddy is Davey or Dave?
STEVE: Yeah, uh-huh, right.
JIM: And he talked to him. And the agents
gave him a Coke and a candy bar. And he's fine.
STEVE: So, what -- Jim, what do you know
about some of our friends that are in California we
heard on the news? I'm sure you have --
JIM: Yeah, there's --
STEVE: Huh.
JIM: I've seen that on the news about some
Californians --
STEVE: Oh, come on, you've got to know these
things. You're in an agency of the government that --
you have your hands -- your fingers on -- I mean --
JIM: Steve, you give me more credit than I
STEVE: Come on, Jim.
JIM: No, you give me more credit. I mean
the government is a big thing, you know.
STEVE: I know that but I mean you'd be up on
I I 35
the news. The very job you're in, you're dealing with
a group of what you should basically have the majority
of all names. If you don't already, I mean I'd be
quite surprised.
JIM: Well, we, we have --
STEVE: Especially after eight months or
whatever it's been.
JIM: We, we have some, some names and --
STEVE: What was -- tell me what that's all
about.
JIM: Frankly, I'm confused about it, and
I've only had bits and pieces and --
STEVE: Uh-huh .
JIM: And, apparently, these were some people
that maybe had been a part of your group before, is
that right?
STEVE: No, no, they still are.
JIM: Oh, they still are --
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: -- a part of the group?
STEVE: We had a property out there in
California --
JIM: Oh, okay.
STEVE: -- and there was some people taking
care of the property, living there. And we heard on
the news that when this took place, they were -- they
I Q 3.
-- hello?
JIM: Yeah, I'm still here. Steve?
STEVE: Yeah. What's I wonder what's
happening here.
JIM: Well, I don't know. It might be your
phone there or something.
STEVE: I'm not moving, though.
JIM: Oh.
end of tape!
O O 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #31
MARCH 3, 1993
O Q 2
CHARLIE: This is Jim Kavanaugh. He's been
on the phone with him all day. This is Serephin from
the radio station. Jim?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yes, this is Jim Kavanaugh.
CHARLIE: Jim, Charlie Serephin ph.! here.
He, he's called in here and I've been talking to him
off the air for half an hour and he just wants to go on
and straighten out the preachers that we've had on the
air and get the message straight and everything. And,
he wants to talk to the people and everything and I
don't want to screw you guys up, but I, I feel kind of
compelled that I ought to talk to him and keep him
going. He sounds like he's bleeding pretty bad.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah. I'll tell you what you
need to do. You can let him talk for a few minutes.
CHARLIE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: But then you've got to get
him back with us because
CHARLIE: All right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Because we've got to get some
of these kids out.
CHARLIE: All right. I'll do that, I'll get
him back with you and I've been trying to telling him
too, you know, that these other people, you ought to
let them go and they shouldn't have to suffer. Nobody
should have to suffer and he shouldn't have to die and
O I 3
everything, but --
JIM KAVANAUGH: What you need to tell him for
trust and confidence is, you need to tell him, I'm
doing this because Jim Kavanaugh told me to do it and
Jim said to call as soon as he's through.
CHARLIE: All right,
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yes.
CHARLIE: All right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay
CHARLIE: I'll do it
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay
Okay, Steve? Jim here.
STEVE: Yeah, Jim?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah.Jim Kavanaugh
I got you.
thank you.
thanks.
he's going t
STEVE: Steve back here.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Hey, Steve.o play it.
STEVE: Hi, gee, I just wanted to touch bases
with you here.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I just talked to the radio
man .
STEVE: All right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: And David was talking to him
and putting David on now. I told the reporter that I
wanted him to put David on.
STEVE: Well good, thank you for that.
JIM KAVANAUGH: So he, he was reluctant, but
O I 4
I told him to do it, so we'll see if it's on here.
STEVE: Okay, good. Jim we're a little
concerned. These guys are passing information up to
me. They're pretty upset because they said they
believe the National Guard is around here now.
JIM KAVANAUGH: They are?
STEVE: Yeah. We hear that there's an
armored vehicle up at the guard gate right now up at
the Post or whatever you'd like to call it.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, okay, it, itS n0t at
your gate. I mean, there are National Guard. There's,
you know, FBI, there's state troopers, there's Waco
police, sheriff's police. I mean, yes, it's true, but
nobody does anything except on what, my word. Nobody's
coming. You have my word. Yes, they're there, it's
true. I'm not lying to you. It's true.
STEVE: They were pretty upset when the plane
flew directly, very close to the com--to the building
itself.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Some plane flew over?
STEVE: Yes, it did. It was very low and
right in line with the building.
JIM KAVANAUGH: You know, I can't some of
these can be media. You know, news people. It could
be, I swear it's not us, I swear we're not doing that.
STEVE: Well he, they, you know, these guys
5
here, they get so itchy, you know with that kind of
thing.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I understand.
word.
STEVE: I'm trying.
JIM KAVANAUGH: That we're notJust pass the
coming. They
can relax. We're not coming. I mean, you can all go
to sleep cause nobody's coming. You know, I'm telling
you, it's not happening.
STEVE: Good.
JIM KAVANAUGH: It's not going
not going to do anybody any good.
STEVE: I agree. I agree.to do, it's
JIM KAVANAUGH: So, we're not going to do
that. We've already -- you and David have already save
some lives. I mean we've got people out
saved their lives.
STEVE: Well, the truth of the
like him, I wish anything in this world,
could've, I hated to see even one person
JIM KAVANAUGH: I understand.
and I know you're sincere and I can tellhere. You've
matter is,
if we
hurt.
I believe you
by your voice
and I know you feel bad. And, I feel bad. But I want
us to keep this lifeline going.
STEVE: We're going to do that
JIM KAVANAUGH: So we can get, you know, some
O I 6
more children out maybe.
STEVE: Right.
JIM KAVANAUGH:
STEVE: Yeah,
you for that too. I know you made a good
part.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well,
but --
STEVE: Yeah, I understand.
you know, religious issues like
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
his word out and we all know he
STEVE: well, you got
from him, didn't you?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah,
Holy smoke, I was listening to him read
he knows it word for word, I mean, it's
STEVE: Well a lot of that he
reading. He was just quoting.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well,Is David on the
he is, right now,radio?
and I thank
effort on our
he didn't want to,
when it comes to
that, I mean --
yeah, well he's getting
wants to.
to hear quite a bit
he's so intelligent.
from the Bible,
unbelievable.
wasn't even
I know he wasn't
reading it, I know. It was unbelievable. I never,
I ' V8 IIQVGI -
STEVE: Even myself, the first time I met him
in Los Angeles, after that indiscernible--interfering
noise! that property they have there and he came out
with greasy hands, he was supposed to give a study to
O O 7
80 people and his hands were so greasy, he just stood
there and for five hours, I mean he just, not even
opening a Bible, chapter after chapter, I sat there
watching verbatim word for word following along in my
Bible. I was astounded. I mean it's one thing for
scholars of many degrees or people with good memories
to memorize even, I don't know, portions of the Bible,
the whole Bible, but here was somebody who put it
together, harmonized it, and made it so plain and
clear. I mean, that's always been his concern. Not
any other issue, but allowing people to really get to
see what these prophets saw for the final days in light
of the last book of the Bible, so - It's always been
his burden and his indiscernible!
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I understand. Like,
he's getting a chance to be heard.
STEVE: Right. what kind of a background do
you have, Jim?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, I'm a Christian and was
raised that way and--
STEVE: You were?
JIM KAVANAUGH: - and believe in God and the
Bible.
STEVE: Do you belong to any kind of Church
or you just-
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well I was a Catholic and my
O Q 8
wife was a Christian Church --
STEVE: That probably was interesting, huh?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, you know, some of the
Catholics are funny about that and --
STEVE: That's true.
JIM KAVANAUGH: and the Christians --
they've changed a little now as you know, but the
Christians seem to be a little bit more accepting and
the Catholics seem to care about all the rules, you
know.
STEVE: Right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: But, you know, I mean, you
got to believe, it's just the way it is.
STEVE: Well, you know, we don't judge
anybody whether they do or don't. I mean we love
people and in honesty if they can't see things, you
know we give them that credit and believe according to
Romans 2 and 3 that indiscernible-interfering noise!
much like came to them and what they did with their
opportunities. I believe one day, an honest seeker, if
he was agnostic, a buddhist, if he did the best he
could with the light he had, God will be merciful in
that manner. This is what we've always taught and
believe that now. We also believe that as in the days
of Noah, God was going to bring a judgement upon the
world and the majority of the world said "no, you
O Q 9
won't, so he did. And, after the flood, God says I'll
never destroy the world with a flood again, and he
says, well yes you will. They built the Tower of Babel
to and get away from a flood that would never come. So
Christ matched twenty forces in the final days, he
says, it wasn't in the days of Noah, that's when it
will be the final days.
So in the last days, there's a message for
people. There's to be an ark of safety, but where is
it to be moved, what kind of an ark of safety. No
wooden boat is going to help you and I in this
generation of course. So this is what the Prophets all
talk about. What God is going to offer for a way out.
We're all sinners. I'm no better than anybody else in
this world [gap] I've tried to be a Christian, I've
tried this, tried that, but I've always loved truth.
I've never said that I know Christ because my lifestyle
doesn't show it even though I've tried for years.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, that's honesty Steve.
Some people try to fool you and tell you, that they,
that's why they don't see him, but that can't be.
STEVE: well, I see a very high standard in
Christianity when you look at the writings of Christ
and you look at the writings of the Prophets and the
Apostles. Like even John says those that are born
again do not commit sin. So, that brings up a
", i, 10
question, well, if we sin are we born again? And then
you have a lot of Evangelicals running around saying,
hey, are you saved? Are you born again? They look at
me and I say to them, "I'm not, I'd like to be, but God
requires something. He tells us in the final days how
you can become born again." It's found in Ezekiel 36
[gap] and the Apostles themselves for twelve years and
they ran, I mean for three years and they ran around
with Christ. They were people that fought for
position and they argued amongst themselves, but the
time came when they all ran away when he died. But
then when they were gathered together they finally
obeyed --
JIM KAVANAUGH aside!: Tell them to get
ready. As soon as he stops rambling, I'm going to try
to negotiate two more kids.
STEVE: indiscernible! something that never
happened to me -- tongues of fire lighting on the heads
of these individuals. They went out and raised the
dead, healed the sick, and you know, it's not happening
anymore.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I know.
STEVE: But the Prophets foresaw that it
didn't work two thousand years ago. It did for awhile,
but it says in the final days of Revelation 13, this
time Satan is going to work the miracles, and will
" " ll
cause fire to come down out of Heaven which Elijah did
three thousand years ago, but this time it's not God
behind it. So the only way we'll know the truth from a
faulty is by what the Book says in its entirety and its
harmonization. So this is why we like to have people
have an opportunity. We don't claim to be able to do
any miracles. We're not Pentecostal. We try to be
very factual, not go by feelings. Everybody in all
religions have feelings, but you know, God is not
against that or anything. But, we look at the sure
word, what God says he's going to do.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay.
STEVE: It's going to be hard for the flesh,
of course, but we'll try to hang in there and try to do
the best we can with our fellow man.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I understand.
STEVE: So, all these years that I've been
with him and worked with him, you know, we've never
harmed anybody, never touched anyone and, we've had a
lot of threats. I was with him and went over to
England and there were theologians that got a hold of
me and warned me about my, you know, my life would be
in danger and I--
JIM KAVANAUGH: Just for what you believe in?
STEVE: Yes, because, you know, what was
happening, we were offering information to a lot of
I U 1.
theology students, those that were paying about $10,000
a year to become ministers. And, we didn't charge
anything. We raised questions that they could not
answer. We said in honesty, if you really want to know
the book called the Bible, you know, let us present
something. You can ask any questions you want. If we
can't show you the answer right in the Book, not give
an opinion and a theory, well then you've lost nothing
but an exercise of the mind and a little time. But if
you see something there, you know, meditate on it, look
at it, go back on your own and wrestle with the issues,
and you know, it's between you and God.
Even when I first met David, I was, I thought
to myself, God, what is this, a Jim Jones, you know
anything with a small group off in the middle of who
knows where, you know you've got to wrestle with the
issues. And for six months, I went back and forth with
that Bible trying to prove him wrong.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I'm no theologian or
religious scholar and I certain --
STEVE: Well, you're almost better off
because of that, Jim, because people like yourself that
have worldly experience, usually give a man more of
break. They do more listening than those in the
religious world. They already think they know God.
You can't do anything for them, so if there's a message
. ' 13
of impending doom and a way out, they won't take the
time out what that way out might be. You know, this
has been what the testimony of the Prophets all the way
through. You know, one law condemns us all. The Ten
Commandments, we don't keep it. It's a good law
indiscernibleinterfering noise! God's character.
But there's another law, it's called the Law of the
Spirit of Life. It's from Romans 8, and in every
generation God sends warnings by Prophets, but there
are always people that are picked that are everyday
people, Hosea and Micah, these guys were sheep herders,
and fig pickers. They didn't wear three piece suits.
They didn't have a lot of doctor degrees. Not to say
that's wrong, but God picked people that were humble,
that he could work with and every generation these kind
of men were rejected.
So, you know, the last days, we believe we're
in the last days as Christianity does at large, and the
word is very clear as to how it's all going to come to
an end. And we just want to make sure people have that
opportunity to take a look because it talks about in
all the Prophets about the Heavens departing as a
scroll. It's going to be a scary thing. If you ever
have the time, you know, write down Isaiah 24. God
says he's going to turn this globe, this planet upside
down and shake the inhabitants. Says it's going to
I
92
92
92
r
I
IO U 14
reel to and fro like a drunkard. People are going to
be terrified. And, if they don't know information
ahead of time, it says if they run they'll fall into a
pit. And those that escape out of the pit will be
taken in a snare. See the thing is to if we're to
stand still, but you can't without information, without
having an experience based upon trusting God's word,
not by your feelings, because we're all bad. I mean,
bad in that we have tendencies to do things that we
don't even like ourselves, so this is what we've share
with people all over, and you know, to this time we
still are.
But, of course, we hold nothing against
anyone. We just want to make sure that people have
that opportunity to understand if they want. If they
don't, we respect that too. Its between them, God, and
the Judgement.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I understand.
STEVE: He probably wanted to talk to you
too, but he's still on with this guy. So how are you
hanging out there Jim, are you tired?
JIM KAVANAUGH: A little tired.
STEVE: I believe it, I believe it.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I know you are.
STEVE: were you up pretty early today?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I kind of like to get
O O 15
up early,
Gonzalez?
talked to
your decis
in mind.
now, so I
play the s
on the rad
know.I tend to do that.
STEVE: Jim, do you know Robert personally,
JIM KAVANAUGH: N0, I don't.
STEVE: But you know of him, of course.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I know the name, yeah.
STEVE: I just, I just would've liked to have
Robert. You came, you heard, you know, make
ions.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I understand.
STEVE: Don't forget what you heard. Keep it
JIM KAVANAUGH: I understand. I think --
STEVE: He's talking about the children right
think he's going to try to work it out.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I think he's telling them to
cripture.
STEVE: I think he's getting to that now.
[989]
JIM KAVANAUGH: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I'm just listening to David
io.
STEVE: Okay. So he is on? I didn't even
JIM KAVANAUGH: Oh, yeah. He's on a long
I Q 1.
time.
STEVE: You can hear him on the radio?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, uh huh.
STEVE: Okay. [gap] He doesn't know that I'm
on with you right now.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah. Okay. Okay. [gap]
What he said was he told the guy on the radio station
that he would take the fact that I told the radio man
to let him talk as one of the scripture readings.
STEVE: Okay, right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: And that you would send out
two more children.
STEVE: Okay, I see.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Now that's what he just said,
if you want to check with him, that's fine, but if we
could get two more kids, I think it would be great.
STEVE: Right, right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: If you want to just --
STEVE: I'm waiting for him to stop here, so
I can, I didn't really want to interrupt him yet.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, maybe, is Sita around
there?
STEVE: Just a minute.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Maybe you can get her to get
two kids ready or something.
STEVE: Yeah, I'm looking for her now.
O O 1,
JIM KAVANAUGH: He's giving the word now.
He's getting out, I'm telling you, he's getting out.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: There's people all over the
world listening to that.
STEVE: I hope so.
JIM KAVANAUGH: He's really getting it out.
JIM KAVANAUGH aside!: I'm talking to Steve
and David said on the radio that he was going to count
the fact that we told that radio man to talk to him as
a reading of the Scripture. David's going to send us
two more kids. I got Steve. They're going to get them
ready. We're not ready just yet. We're lining it up.
STEVE: We'll definitely do it.
JIM KAVANAUGH aside!: They'll definitely do
it. You have Steve's word.
STEVE: That's right. There's no problem.
JIM KAVANAUGH aside!: No problem. They're
going to do it.
STEVE: Just waiting for a break.
JIM KAVANAUGH aside!: And you can trust
him, I'm telling you. It's okay. You can trust him.
Steve, he won't break his word.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay, I got, you know, these
commanders and deputies and stuff.
STEVE: You guys have quite a job there.
I Q .8
JIM KAVANAUGH: The sheriff was asking for
you guys. I just want to pass it on. He's real
concerned. I talked to him earlier.
STEVE: which one is this?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Sheriff Thorn.
STEVE: Okay, I've never met him. I don't
know him myself, but of course David does.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, David knows him.
STEVE: He likes him very much and he's
appreciated him.
JIM KAVANAUGH: He's a real gentleman. You
know, I talked to him at length and he just said hey, I
don't want anybody in there to get hurt. Let's work it
out. He's behind you, so I want you to feel good about
that.
STEVE: Well we do feel good about him.
David's met him apparently or talked to him and he
really appreciates him.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, he's a good guy. I
really believe he is. I know you can size him up fast.
STEVE: I know that any of these guys that
put their own life on the line not knowing what they're
getting into and hearing this and that information.
You can't help but have appreciation for these people.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Sure.
STEVE: I try to put myself in their shoes
. . 19
and where they're coming from and try to understand and
I know it's not easy.
JIM KAVANAUGH: David's still talking to him.
STEVE: Yeah, he is.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I think he's going to get
through in just a minute. Well he's getting it out,
I'm telling you. It's hard sometimes to get that out,
you know, I mean you know how much that would cost to
try to buy that?
STEVE: Oh, tell me.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I mean, probably world wide,
I mean --
STEVE: This is about the best opportunity
we've had.
JIM KAVANAUGH: It is. I think it's great.
I mean as a result the kids are getting out. I mean,
it it's good. You're making good out of bad. You know
what I mean?
STEVE: Right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: You're making good out of
bad. We're trying to do good and that's hold on
Steve, they're hollering at me. [gap] okay, yeah --
JIM KAVANAUGH aside!: Are they on the
ground? The guys with the - okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: What happened Steve, they
said they're looking down the road with the night
", |! 20
vision goggles --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: There's five of your men in
the guard shack in the trees.
STEVE: What?
JIM KAVANAUGH: They said they're out front
there. They can see them.
STEVE: We have nobody. Wait just a minute.
Jim is saying--
[Gap]
JIM KAVANAUGH: Are we sure it's none of us,
right?
STEVE: -- Honestly, in all honesty, we don't
have anybody down there. So if there's someone down
there, it's the National Guard --
JIM KAVANAUGH: It's not the National Guard.
STEVE: It's nobody to do with us.
JIM KAVANAUGH: It's your people. I'm
telling you straight. It's your people.
STEVE: we, I'm telling you, we have nobody
down there, Jim. You're talking about the gate at the
end of our dirt road, right?
JIM KAVANAUGH: At the front gate.
STEVE: We have nobody down there.
JIM KAVANAUGH: well, they told me they can
see them.
I I 21
STEVE: Well, that tells me that, okay I
don't doubt that you're saying that there's someone
down there, but they're not our people.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, they, they, there's
nobody of ours that close. The only reason is the car.
You know we want the car to come down and get the
children.
STEVE: Exactly. Now I'm concerned about
that.
JIM KAVANAUGH: So what we need to do is
somehow to check that.
STEVE: Well don't you
JIM KAVANAUGH: I'm not sending anybody. I
don't want them to, you know, to shoot anybody.
STEVE: Exactly, that's exactly what would
happen, so you know, let's keep that cool yet.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Let's keep that cool.
STEVE: I want to talk to Wayne about that,
he just--
JIM KAVANAUGH: You know, you have my solemn
word.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: You can send Sita with a
flashlight. We've already let her go back twice.
STEVE: Right, I understand.
JIM KAVANAUGH: You can send her out to look
, I 22
and if it's your people you tell them to come on back
in, you know.
STEVE: Hang on, I'm going to talk to Wayne
about that, what he passed on there.
JIM KAVANAUGH aside!: Okay. I'm trying to
get him to send Sita out with a flashlight to look and
tell them to come back in.
STEVE aside!: Yeah, Jim is saying that --
he claims that they're ours. We don't have --
STEVE: So what's going on Jim? Can you get
these guys out of there?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, they're not our guys.
STEVE: Well, how would you do it? I mean
how can you get a hold, I mean you must have
connections.
JIM KAVANAUGH: No, I mean they're not,
they're not police. In other words the agents are
saying they came from the compound.
STEVE: They didn't though. I swear they --
JIM KAVANAUGH: You know, I wonder, you know
what happened, I wonder, a couple of guys earlier --
STEVE: Okay, right,
JIM KAVANAUGH: -- came across--
JIM KAVANAUGH: Chuck, give me the name of
the man that was arrested, okay? I've got to give
Steve his name.
C U 23
STEVE: okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay, a couple of guys came
across that were in your place today.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: But they're part of your
guys, I mean they're part of your group, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: And they came from another
house or location, I don't know. Okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: And they came across, one got
away, but one we arrested, he's in good shape,
nothing's wrong with him.
STEVE: which one was arrested?
JIM KAVANAUGH: I'm going to get his name in
a minute, Delroy? Delroy? Nash?
STEVE: what's his name?
JIM KAVANAUGH: I think it's Delroy Nash, but
I'm checking. He's a Jamaican man, a black man?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Do you know who I mean?
STEVE: Yes, I do.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay.
STEVE: I didn't know that his name was that,
but I guess --
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well that's what he told us.
O O 2.
STEVE: Okay. That could be, I just knew him
by a nickname.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay, so what I'm saying is,
he came from out there, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Now, possibly these people in
the front could have came, I mean they could be your
believers, but you know they got there without your
knowing it. You see what I'm saying?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: They are not police. Because
we wouldn't put them there, you wouldn't send the kids
out, I mean that would be crazy.
STEVE: We don't have anybody out there, Jim.
That is the truth. What happened to the other two
guys?
JIM KAVANAUGH: The other two guys?
STEVE: Someone told me they heard on the
radio that three guys were heading this way, one was
shot, one was wounded, and one was captured.
JIM KAVANAUGH: No, we don't -- we had two
guys we saw and captured one. we don't know what
happened to the other one. We don't have him. We
don't know where he is.
STEVE: This is what we heard.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I'm telling you
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straight. There's two guys in the back, back in the
woods in the back.
STEVE: Right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: And that's when - remember
after we'd been talking and later on the shooting
started, remember that?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: And we said, you guys said
it's not our guys, and it was these guys that came over
there from somewhere else - Jamaica~-
STEVE: What kind of a vehicle were they in?
JIM KAVANAUGH: They were on foot.
STEVE: They were?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Uh-huh. So I, I don't know
if the guys in the front came from the mag bag or
somewhere else?
STEVE: That's what I wondered.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Or, you know what I mean.
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM KAVANAUGH: And the only problem then is
communication. They just don't know what we're doing.
STEVE: Of course, of course.
JIM KAVANAUGH: And we, we could have some
tragedy, so let's see if you and I can come up with a
way to verify who they are.
STEVE: Well, that's what I would like to do.
O I 2.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Let me think here. I wonder,
could you, could you holler out the front to your guys,
ask them to come in, they have safe conduct, I
guarantee you.
STEVE: Jim, I'm telling you for a fact, I
mean it. David, myself, Wayne, all of us here are not
allowing that kind of a thing.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, but you may not know
it. They didn't come from inside.
STEVE aside!: Jim thinks that there are
some guys that are either approaching our place or
coming near the place, that are out there near the
guard shack, that might be ours, cause he says it's not
theirs. But isn't there an armored vehicle there also?
JIM KAVANAUGH: No, no, that's - none of
those armored cars are near there. They're down on the
2491 road.
STEVE: Can we check that out somehow or go
back, okay, he's going to see about our men and make
sure of the rest of it.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, we've got to work
something out, I mean.
STEVE: Oh, definitely. I don't like that at
all.
JIM KAVANAUGH: we can get you a bull horn
somehow. You could call them. You could yell out the
O O 2,
window. Is it any of our guys? Come on in, safe
conduct's guaranteed. I mean if it is and they come
in, then we know. You know, I don't want no trouble.
STEVE: No, exactly.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I mean, it's not going to do
us any good to get a child hurt or something. And, I
know you feel the same. But I'm giving you my solemn
word. I've never told you anything except the truth.
STEVE: You know, I believe that.
JIM KAVANAUGH: It's not our guys. I don't
doubt that they didn't come from inside, but they might
have been --
STEVE: Okay, if it's not ours, you know, I'm
positive it's not, but he's going to check and do
everything possible. If it's not our guys, who do you
think it would be?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well it could be somebody
from the mag bag.
STEVE: I doubt it, cause we don't, there's
no five guys that I'm aware of out or you know, away
from us. Other than the one you mentioned--
JIM KAVANAUGH: Geez, I don't wonder if it
could be reporters. I doubt that they'd get up that
close.
STEVE: So, you did pick up two guys, right?
JIM KAVANAUGH: We picked up one and one got
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away. You know, the ~-
STEVE: David, I'm talking to Jim right now
and he's telling me there's five guys down there. I'm
assuring him they're not ours, He thinks there might
be some of our guys coming to our place but if there
was they'd come up to the building. Why would they
stay?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, I don't know, maybe,
maybe they don't know, maybe they're scared. Maybe
they think agents are up in there. Maybe they want to
ambush the car. See, they may not know what we're
doing with the children, is what I'm saying and they
may say --
STEVE: well that's what we're going to do
then, is check on that.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, check on that and hey
Chuck, are they sure there's like four or five people?
Okay, Steve says they don't think it's their guys, but
they're going to try to holler out to them or
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1O O 2.
there, great. Hey, Chuck, Sita's going to walk up
there with a flashlight. Tell everybody she's going to
check out who's there. Sita.
STEVE: The same one that brought the
children.
JIM KAVANAUGH: The one that brought the
children. Steve?
STEVE: Let's get this resolved, then we're
going to make the next move where we were before this
was reported, okay?
JIM KAVANAUGH: You mean the kids?
STEVE: Exactly.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Absolutely.
STEVE: We're going to send her out right
now, then.
JIM KAVANAUGH: You're a good man. Hey, the
guy we got that's safe and sound is Delroy Nash.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay. He's fine.
STEVE: What happened? There was an older
O O 30
there.
STEVE: He's still there at this place?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah. As far as they know,
he's still there.
STEVE: Right now, we're getting ready to
send her out.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Is David still on with the
reporter? [gap] Nobody's going to hurt Sita.
STEVE: [gap] You heading out there Sita?
You got a flashlight?
SITA: Yeah, I got a flashlight.
STEVE: N0 kids right now. Just go out,
check it out, come back and we're going to send two
more --
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah .
STEVE: Okay? She's going to be --
JIM KAVANAUGH: -- She's going out?
STEVE: Yeah. Call to see if they're ours or
who they are or whatever. It's very important she
returns, of course.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Oh, absolutely. Sita's
coming out. Tell everybody.
STEVE: Okay, give her the flashlight. [gap]
Okay, they're getting ready now. Like us, they're
concerned.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I understand.
I Q 31
STEVE: I want to tell you, I really
appreciate your telling me that and I'm concerned
myself. I'd like to know who they are and so far I
haven't heard they got -- okay, David just said he
still wants all his kids out.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, we're going to do it.
You have my word, we're going to do it.
STEVE aside!: We've got his word. He's
going to do it, so- [gap] Head out there, okay? I
thought you left already.
SITA: There's a van~
STEVE: Oh, there's a van there, I guess.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Chuck, is there a van there?
Where's the van? It's not there, is it? It's down at
the roadblock, it's not there, no.
STEVE aside!: They're saying there's nobody
there, Sita. There's nobody at the guard gate.
There's no vehicle.
JIM KAVANAUGH: There's no vehicle. Just
some people.
STEVE: There's some people and we're trying
to find out who the people are.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Just tell her to walk out.
She'll be safe.
STEVE: Walk out. You'll be safe. They're
guaranteeing that. She's coming right now.
O C 3.
JIM KAVANAUGH: She's coming out.
STEVE: Yeah. You know, it's funny, I keep
on saying that and then I see her face here again. I
guess they want to make sure that -- someone had
mentioned that there was a van there. I don't know.
You know, I'm in a place, here, I can't tell.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Is she walking down there?
STEVE: Yeah, yeah.
JIM KAVANAUGH: She's coming down. Steve
said she's coming.
STEVE: Yeah, she is.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Does she have a flashlight?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM KAVANAUGH: She has a flashlight.
STEVE: She has a flashlight. [gap]
JIM KAVANAUGH: Maybe it's somebody she
knows, you know. Can they see?
STEVE: Jim, so how long are you going to be
carrying on tonight?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, I'm sticking with you,
buddy.
STEVE: You are, oh, man.
JIM KAVANAUGH: For the kids, right?
STEVE: I guess we're going to be a couple of
night hawks.
JIM KAVANAUGH: We'll d0 it for the kids.
I 33
STEVE: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
JIM KAVANAUGH: You got someone to get you a
cup of coffee in there or something?
STEVE: Yeah,
JIM KAVANAUGH:
today. A little rain.
STEVE: Yeah,
Hawaii.
JIM KAVANAUGH:
I bet it's beautiful.
STEVE: Oh of
world, there was a timewe've got that.
It was kind of cool out there
I guess so. It's not like
No. I've never been there.
all the places I've been in the
I said I'd never leave there.
The only reason I left is for something better. Truth,
catching a vision of eternal life, but yeah, it's a
warm place.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, oh yeah. Kind of
beautiful, the mountains and the volcanos.
STEVE: The ocean, you got it. Waterfalls,
pools, trade winds, you
conditioning.really don't need air
JIM KAVANAUGH: That would be neat. Not like
Texas.
STEVE: No, no. One day it's 40, the next
it'S 80.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I understand.
STEVE: Are you from here?
O C 3.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I grew up in New Jersey and I
was a policeman in Florida and I was an agent in
Nashville, Wichita, Washington, Dallas.
STEVE: Wow, holy smoke.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I go all over the place.
STEVE aside!: Jim, he's from New Jersey.
He was a police officer in Florida and he's been in New
Jersey, I mean Wichita,
JIM KAVANAUGH: Nashville.
STEVE: Nashville, yeah.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Country music, got a lot of
them down there.
STEVE: You would have liked some of our
music then. We played quite a variety.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Kind of like blue grass?
STEVE: Yeah, exactly. These guys are able
to play just about anything.
JIM KAVANAUGH: I got to tell you, I got a
nephew. He's eleven years old and he can pick a banjo,
it's unbelievable. I don't know how a kid can learn so
fast.
STEVE: Eleven years old?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Eleven years old.
STEVE: The banjo's quite an instrument. I
had a cousin that also played one and I was amazed at
his ability.
I O 3.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, kids can do any
STEVE: I like that instrument myself. I
wonder, is she down there yet?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Can they see her?
STEVE: Yeah, I'm wondering here if they can
see her yet. Do they notice her yet from your side?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Chuck, do they see Sita?
Sita's back inside, we think. Is she there?
STEVE: No, no. She should be outside.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay.
STEVE: Heading down the road.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Steve said she's outside he
thinks.
STEVE: Yeah, David just wanted to reassure,
just as soon as she gets back in the building, we're
sending two right away then.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay, as soon as Sita gets
back, we're going to do two more kids. Once we can
get, make sure that there's nobody there.
STEVE: I'm really glad though that you told
me that, it helps.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, we got to be straight.
I mean we can't play. Let's deal in honesty here. I
think these could be some folks that you know, I know
you didn't tell them to go there, I believe that. But
I'm saying they could've went there on their own and
O U 36
you didn't know it. They're trying to help.
STEVE: Right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: All right. Sita's coming
out. Yeah. Sita's coming out now.
STEVE: Yeah, they see her?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Sita, okay, she's coming out
to check around. [gap] I think they're in the guard
shack. I think there's two in the guard shack.
STEVE aside!: He thinks, he thinks there's
two in the guard shack.
JIM KAVANAUGH: A couple in some trees.
Trees I guess across the driveway, in the bushes.
STEVE aside!: And a couple of trees or
bushes across the drive. No, none of theirs. None of
theirs. David is saying again. They're none of ours.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay. We've got to find out
who's who, you know?
STEVE: Wow.
JIM KAVANAUGH: You know, since we've pulled
our people back, I mean we haven't sent nobody up
there, but that car to get the kids, I swear.
STEVE: Okay. [gap] the car that came up to
pick up the last two or any of the four, was it noted
then?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, they didn't tell me.
STEVE: Does anybody there know?
O O 3,
JIM KAVANAUGH: S01?
STEVE: Spotted them even then?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Let me get through. Chuck,
were those guys there when the car went to pick up the
kids the last time? Did they see them? Okay, the
driver didn't see them.
STEVE: She didn't?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay, but the guys with the
night vision glasses, one in the back, they see them,
they're watching them.
STEVE: Wow, I tell you what. I'm sure
curious myself. I mean if they're people we know, I'd
sure like to know who they are.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Like I say, if it is, they
just don't know what's what. And, they may be scared.
And, you know, they don't know exactly what's going on
so, maybe Sita can, if she recognizes them, she can say
hey come on in, or you know whatever.
STEVE: Right.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Or they can walk out, you
know, whatever they want to do. [gap] How's David
doing?
STEVE: How are you doing David?
JIM KAVANAUGH aside!: He's asking David how
he's doing, but
JIM KAVANAUGH: Is he getting weak Steve?
" I 38
STEVE: I can see him from where I'm at here
and I think he's listening to the radio.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Well, he sounded a lot
stronger to me and I felt good about that. I don't
think, David's off the radio.
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM KAVANAUGH: David was through with the
radio guy?
STEVE: Yes. Yes, he is.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay. The agent's passing me
a note. Well get him on the phone. I can't get off
this line, but you can get him on another line. [gap]
I wonder how Sita, Sita still out there? Oh, you can't
see her.
STEVE: They can. They've got night scopes.
But I'm not in communication with them right at the
moment. What's happening with Sita? Can somebody give
me word?
JIM KAVANAUGH: I was just holding, just in
case he asked for me again. Just wait a little while.
STEVE: She's just going?
JIM KAVANAUGH: I don't know if he'll ask for
them. I'll try to talk him out of it.
STEVE: Jim, Jim?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Yeah, go ahead Steve.
STEVE: They said she's just going now. I'm
" I 39
disappointed.
JIM KAVANAUGH: That's okay. I understand.
I was slow in getting that truck down there, I know
it's not your fault. You know, it's hard. We got a
lot of people.
STEVE: Playing again? Oh, I see, they're
playing the - [gap]
JIM KAVANAUGH: Are they talking about David?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM KAVANAUGH: That's good. indiscernible!
I just don't want to hang up right now. She hopefully
can see with that flashlight. It's pretty dark out
there. You're not at a window where you can see them,
are you Steve?
STEVE: N0.
JIM KAVANAUGH: These little children are
beautiful and --
STEVE: They're all very well behaved.
JIM KAVANAUGH: They were, they're just
gorgeous and they're just so polite and smiling. we
gave them a cold drink and they've got a lady with them
and they're fine.
STEVE: Okay, that's good. One of the worse
things that reports --
JIM KAVANAUGH: Tell them to hold those kids,
just a minute, I'm afraid that the mother of the second
I I .0
bunch wants to talk to them.
STEVE: indiscernible! we, David said,
there's no one in the shack. The van's not there.
There's no one in the shack. Where else did she look?
They said across the street in bushes there were a
couple.
JIM KAVANAUGH: A couple.
STEVE: Right?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Hold On.
STEVE: Okay. Guys with night goggles
watching the road.
JIM KAVANAUGH: That's probably Sita, right?
With a flashlight? We seen a lady out from the
compound on the EE Road. Okay, he said that the team
sees people pulling back from EE Road. toward-
STEVE: Hello?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
OPERATOR: This is the operator. I have an
emergency for 863-5252 from A Current Affair, will
you
JIM KAVANAUGH: No, no. Operator, this is a
Federal Agent.
STEVE: Jim, is there any way I could talk to
them and call you back? Could I?
JIM KAVANAUGH: I'll allow that, but let me
I
O O .1
get the operator first.
STEVE: Okay.
OPERATOR: I'm here, sir.
STEVE: Operator?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Operator, wait, operator?
STEVE: This is the number that you want to
reach and I would like to talk to Current Affair.
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay, operator, operator.
OPERATOR: Yes.
JIM KAVANAUGH: This is Jim Kavanaugh, I'm a
United States Treasury Agent, I'm talking-
STEVE: Jim, can I call you right back? Let
me, I'll call you right back, or let me, I'll tell them
I'll call them back, is that okay?
JIM KAVANAUGH: Okay, yeah, okay.
STEVE: Okay. Operator, I'm going to call
Jim right back and I just want to get at least a
connection with you to talk to you and-
JIM KAVANAUGH: Operator, okay, and do that
and I don't want you to break in on the line anymore.
OPERATOR: Sir, I cannot prevent that.
STEVE: Okay, well operator, go ahead, thank
you Jim, I'll get back with you.
JIM KAVANAUGH: The operator just cut in on
my line with Current Affair - give it to him and she
wouldn't not do it. indiscernible voice in
O C 42
background! Well, they are but I don't know how many
- get this set up-
End of tape.!
O C 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #33
MARCH 3, 1993
9:53 P.M. 10:35 P.M.
O O 2
DAVID: - just going to have to, you know,
your job, you're going to have to bear with the
responsibilities when, you know, you lost a lot of
innocent lives, that's all I can say. You're going to
have to, you know, you're going to have to take a look
at some of the pictures of the little ones that ended
up perishing, because, you know, you don't have that
much jurisdiction, do you?
HENRY: Well-
DAVID: I mean, but the thing is this, you
know, on the other hand, our God who sits on the throne
is keeping better order of things than you guys are.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: I just wish you understood the reason
why the Bible was written is because the Prophets were
told to seal their Book till the end of time.
HENRY: Uh~huh.
DAVID: And how many times have all these
churches been honking their heads saying that the end
could come any day. You know, the longer, longer time
takes, the less sin seems to be sinful. You know,
today we have all these people doing all these terrible
things in the name of theirself, you know?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And it just seems to be normal
routine life. I mean half the story is not even told.
O O 3
HENRY: Well I think this whole incident is
very unfortunate and, I, you know, I sincerely wish
that it had never happened.
DAVID: Well, I wish Robert would have called
me because, you know, I think, I think, what would have
been better, now this is hypothetical-
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Just to make a point, maybe we
should have taken Robert as a hostage, huh? We could
have avoided a lot of bloodshed, couldn't we?
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
say-
DAVID
a hostage.
HENRYWell, you know
Don't you think?
Well, I have no, it's difficult to
-then we'd be in trouble for taking
-- if that had happened exactly.
Okay, you have a responsibility for the safety of the
people that are there with you, okay? DAVID:
Uhhuh.
HENRY: And I think that you are leading your
people in, in the fashion that you feel is the most
responsible way for you to do it.
DAVID: That I know is to be done, right.
HENRY: Exactly, exactly, and I think that
you're doing the right thing in terms of, of saying
look, these children, that, you know, need to go out,
and then, and you're willing to, to show
DAVID: And give these people, give these
people--
HENRY: Exactly, exactly~
DAVID: -time to look at what they're
dealing with, to look at you big boys-
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: -to watch your maneuvers, look at
all your show of might-
HENRY: Well
DAVID: No, listen, let me, let me, let me-
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: ~-paint the picture, so we can watch
this exactly how this government and this world really
works. You know how this peaceful lamblike beast
really under its breast, speaks as a dragon, you know.
HENRY: Uh huh.
DAVID: This is one of the greatest soci--
psychological formulas of man's division. I mean, it
just like, you know, I realize, you know, the three,
the three men have talked with us thus far, are very
smooth, very calm, very understanding. But, what
really amazes me is how like with Jim, when I read to
him plainly from the Prophecies about an event, a
Messiah, dealing in a situation with chariots that ran
I I 5
like lightnings, that made thunders, that had flaming
torches-
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: -~that jostled in the streets, that
made the fir trees shake, I asked him, I said where in
the New Testament did you hear anything about Messiah
being involved with tank, with chariots with flaming
torches.
NOW mindful of the fact, we know that the Prophets
in their day could only understand the things of their
world.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: I mean, you know, when it talks about
th-and their horses shall be as, you know, like the
evening wolves that are more terrible than the
leopards, and faster than leopards, you know, is the
Prophet really talking about real horses or is he only
trying to point out that he sees men which he can
identify men-
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: --and he sees vehicular transport
that's way beyond his comprehension and he's trying to
explain it with the things of his natural world.
HENRY: which he can understand.
DAVID: which are the things that he's trying
to relate.1
O O 6
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: You know, and if they roar like a
lion, does that mean that they're a lion or is a lion
just the only reality that he knows in his life that is
fearful.
HENRY: Uhhuh, right.
DAVID: And so, you know, it's just like,
when Ezekiel says that God travels on this chariot, and
that there's these flames, and there's these torches,
and it sounds like the thunders of the Heaven. You
see, is he really talking about a cloud or is he
talking about some kind of vehicle with lights, and
some kind of vehicle with, you know, makes a noise of
thunder, because it's really a highly sophisticated,
you know, implement of the higher universes.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: You've seen the documentary, Chariots
of the Gods?
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: It kind of develops a good scientific
question, doesn't it?
HENRY: It sure does.
DAVID: Right. Well, do you actually think
that man, mankind, as you know mankind, could have been
realistically a part of a universal society? Remember,
our ancient fathers have given us record
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HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -that men from other worlds have
visited our world.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: Now this is not biblical. It's more
scientific.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: You know, so all the, all nations,
the hieroglyphics, the technologies of the past
ancients, well, I wonder, I wonder why that the concept
of good and evil is such an important part of every
social direction of man. Everyone has the question of
the right and wrong way of doing things.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But, you know, isn't it strange how
that God would wait to the latter days before he passes
judgement on the world? Because a lot of the
prophecies of the bible cannot really be understood--
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: -until man's technology so advances
to a degree that he can understand the real meanings of
the prophecies.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Now we know the flaming, the chariots
with flaming torches that make noise like thunder, you
know, we know what that really is, don't we?i
i
!
I O 8
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
talking about.
DAVID
HENRY
DAVIDSure.
What is it?
Well, the same thing that you're
Tanks.
Right.
Okay. Now, how would the Prophet be
justified of such an event saying that Messiah is being
confronted with a situation and yet we know clearly
from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, no such thing
happened.
HENRY
DAVID
false, wouldn't
HENRY
DAVID:What do you think?
Well, it would make the Prophet
it?
Sure.
But of course Christ says "think not
that I've come to destroy the law of the Prophets,"
that's what he told his disciples.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Some come not to destroy, but to
fulfill.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: And, until Heaven and Earth pass, not
one jot or tittle shall pass from the law or the
prophets until all be fulfilled. Heaven and Earth
shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
O O 9
Now what are the words of Christ? Well, John, he
always keeps telling the Jews that this doctrine is not
his own, but the doctrine that he received from his
father.
HENRY: Uh~huh.
DAVID: Revelation, what are those seven
seals, I wonder. It's probably a situation that when
Christ does come, he's going to get into a situation,
cause remember he is a political leader, isn't he?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: would you consider Christ a political
leader?
HENRY: Leader of all, you know, political --
DAVID: Well, I mean, I'm sure that if he was
to come today in the clouds of glory, I'm sure that
your, your national leaders and all of your great
empire directors and all that would no doubt have a
united, United Council, the Pontiff and all the leaders
of all churches and of all governments would come
together and sit down and talk about some things cause
naturally his armies of the universe is far greater
than the armies of this world.
HENRY: Uh~huh.
DAVID: Okay. Well that's going to happen.
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: But the thing of it is, it happens
O I 1,,
after a catastrophe. Because, you know, I bet that the
gentiles of today are really no better than the Jews of
yesterday. What would you want to bet?
HENRY: I'm sure that that makes a lot of
sense.
DAVID: You know, Isaiah said that Israel
didn't believe the prophets, that's what he tells us in
Chapter 1 and that God's going to forsake his people
because they're like the Philistines. They're
soothsayers and they have their own imaginations, but
they don't walk in God's word.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: What Isaiah says in Chapter Two,
verse One, he says, "but in the last days, it shall
come to pass, but the mountain of the Lord's house,"
that was Mt. Zion, Mt. Zion,-
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: That's where the ancient throne of
David once sat, "shall be established in the top of all
mountains and shall be exalted of above all hills, and
all nations shall flow in to it." Excuse me here.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Now, if that's the case, then on the
last days we should be waiting for that to happen. Is
it spiritual, is it literal, well it says that he shall
sit upon the throne and rebute many nations of far off
and they shall beat their swords and their plowshares,ll
and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not
lift up sword against nation. Neither will they learn
more anymore. That sounds good, don't it?
HENRY: well, I don't know, you know, if it's
going to be good.
DAVID: Well, I mean if someone big enough,
bigger than the world intervened and told all these
brothers and sisters of this old world to put their
weapons down, it's kind of like - have you ever had a
brother before?
HENRY:
DAVID:
fight with your
HENRY:
DAVID:
But then dad kind
hallway?
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:Sure.
Did you ever like
brother?
Well, not since I
Okay, that's what
of stepped around
Uhhuh.get
was
I'm
theinto a fist
a kid.
talking about.
corner of the
Kind of brought peace, didn't it?
Sure did.
Okay. Well, that's kind of like what
has to happen because, the world, even though men may
grow to maturity, they're still really in a large way,
children.
HENRY: I think you're right.
O O 1,
DAVID: And, just a lot of these children
have this cover called refinement, eloquency, you know,
they're good orators. It makes man seem a little more
on the outside than what really man is on the inside.
Now I'm sure even Pope John Paul likes to every once in
awhile, I don't know, he might like to fly model
airplanes or something.
HENRY
DAVID
choo choo train
HENRY
DAVID:
fishing pole.
HENRY
DAVID:
day long and read
catechism.
HENRY
DAVID
much studiness,
HENRY
DAVIDLaughter.
He might like to - he might have a
now come on, you see what I'm saying?
Yeah.
I'm sure he might have his favorite
Uh-huh.
Because nobody likes to just sit all
out of the Bible or read out of
That's true.
And even Solomon, that Solomon says
much study is a weariness to the mind.
Uhhuh.
Okay, so Solomon did say though, that
in all of his wisdom as a great king, and you know,
some of the greatest wisdom in all of the world
literature wise, comes from the Bible, wouldn't you
think?
O O ,3
HENRY: Absolutely.
DAVID: A lot of it's so deep a lot of people
don't know the meanings of it but definitely it's an
inspired book even if it's just poetic. You know, in
high school you can learn bible as lit which is not a
doctrinal thing, but just it kind of looks at the '
poetry and the connection of language, the flow of
thought that the ancient writers had.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Anyway, Solomon, he makes a lot of
comments in Ecclesiastes about life and death, love,
hatred, the meanings of man, oppression and power and
weakness, and he finally says in the conclusion
beginning in chapters 11 and 12 of Ecclesiastes, he
says, "now young man," he says "go ahead and go in the
way of your heart, do what is right in your own eyes."
He says, "but no, that for these things, God will
bring you into the judgement." He said "now remove
sorrow from your heart and tears from your eyes," he
says "fear God now in the days of your youth before the
evil days come when you will have no pleasure in them.
Before the time when the time will come when the sun,
moon and stars will be darkened."
Now, soon the stars will be darkened. Do you know
of any event in the Book of Revelation about the sun,
moon and stars being darkened? Do you remember that
last night?
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
DAVID:
stars fell due to
HENRY:
DAVID:
will return after
to be a rain, the
rain according toC 1.
Uhhuh.
The sixth seal?
Right.
Some of the stars were dark and the
the fig tree shaking?
Uh~huh.
It says at the time when the clouds
the rain, of course there's supposed
prophecies teach that there will be a
the time when Messiah is trying to
warn the world. indiscernible! Nahum and it says that
the clouds will come, it will have a short rain, and
all of a sudden it will stop.
HENRY:
DAVID:Okay.
And clear up. But it talks about
this belligerent power that, you know, flaunts its
might, magnifies itself against the truth, the Lord,
course it says in
amongst the heathen and wonder marvously.
work will work in your day that you
what we told you.
heathens are. You know, they don't
warnings from God. They don't fear
HENRY:
DAVID:of
the Habakkuk, it says regard ye
For I will
will not believe
Of course that's just the way
take any real
God.
Uh-huh.
But anyway it says in Ecclesiastes
O O ,5
that you know, fear God before the sun, moon and stars
are darkened, before the clouds return after the rain.
Because the next time the clouds return, oh boy. The
prophets teach something about these latter clouds.
The gathering of these clouds in thick darkness. Just
like it was two thousand years ago when Messiah was
being killed
HENRY
DAVID
heavens-
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID:Uh-huh.
-the clouds came, the thunder in the
Uh-huh.
and darkness was over the earth-
Uh-huh.
Yeah, well, that's going to be
repeated. But it says when He, God, shall rise up at
the voice of the bird. Now at the voice of the bird,
what bird? You know, Isaiah talks about Messiah and
Isaiah calls him a ravenous bird from the east. Of
course we know in Revelation, the one who seals the one
hundred and forty four thousand are sins from the east.
Now, this is a very clear light. As lightning
indiscernible! from the west. You know, when
lightning flashes, everybody sees it don't they.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: In Heaven there's lightnings,
thunders, and voices isn't there?
C U 1.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: God likes a lot of rain showeres,
doesn't he?
HENRY: Sure does.
DAVID: Okay, so you know, these seven
thunders no doubt emphasize a fact that God wants men
to hear his word in thunder tones. Like in the Book of
Job, God is talking to Job and God says that wisdom
will be found at the end of the world in the secret
places of thunder. Have you ever heard of the seven
thunders yet, Henry?
HENRY: Seven?
DAVID: Seven thunders. Revelation 10, verse
7 .
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: indiscernible! mystery of God the
seven thunders will be finished.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: The seven seals.
HENRY: Okay. That's what we talked about,
yes, okay.
DAVID: Right. Now you know, a lot of people
are saying that I jump all over the Bible. The reason
why I do that is because all the prophets have talked
about this event.
HENRY: UhhUh .
i
I O 1,
DAVID: And Isaiah talks about,
indiscernible! says, he says, "send ye the lamb."
Now we know who the lamb is, don't we?
HENRY: Right.
_ DAVID: Send ye, now this is Isaiah 16, "send
ye the lamb to the rulers of the land from Sela for it
shall be in the wandering bird cast out of his nest.
Now who's a wandering bird? The lamb's a wandering
bird.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Cast out of his nest. And it goes on
and talks about this bird being amongst the heathen and
it says about the heathen, it says, "take counsel,
which is what we're doing now we're taking counsel. It
says "execute judgement" We got to, we got to do some
judging now here. It says "bewray not him that
wander." You know what bewray means, don't you? When
you bewray someone?
HENRY: Yeah.
DAVID: It means you scare them, right?
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: It says "scare not him that
wandereth," okay?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: It says, "let my outcast dwell with
thee." Okay? Now, who is this wandering bird cast out
C I 18
of its nest? Well, you know, right before the armies
of Israel were to destroy Jericho, God placed in
Jericho some spies, and these men were spies that were
sent from Israel to get inside the city and to watch
and to see the activities of the city.
HENRY: Uhhuh .
DAVID: Well, the leaders there discovered
this and they started searching for them. And these
men made their way and finally came to a harlot's house
and we know harlots don't have a good reputation in
sociality, do they?
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And her name was Rayhab. Now these
spies asked of Rayhab a very unique favor. They asked
Rayhab to hide them. Now Rayhab had been raised with
the Gods of the, you know, Philistines, the Gods of
that time, Miradoc phonetic!, you know Bale
phonetic!, different Gods, Ishtar and everything, and
she pretty much concluded in her days of her youth that
this all baloney.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And she entered into a profession
that she knew what religion was. She knew that men
didn't love her. Men loved it. So she wasn't going to
be deceived by all this so called forms and regulations
of worship. She was going to do what was natural and
U U 1.
what was carnal. But when she saw the power of the God
of Israel in dealing with the Gods of Egypt, --now
remember in the days of Egypt they had long forgotten
the miracles done in the days of Joseph.
HENRY: Uhhuh .
DAVID: For the Pharaoh rose up and knew not
Joseph, so Israel, Egypt was once blessed, just like
America is. But they moved far beyond the beginning
point of where those blessings came from, so they came
up to the point where they had to be judged and so God
was going to use Egypt as an example to all other
nations.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay. so now here, Rayhab, the harlot
witnesses this. Now she knows there's a living God in
Egypt. Well she says to these spies, you know, why
should I hide you? Your God is a true God.
You know, but she did, but she asked, she says, look,
if I show you this mercy, will you not have mercy upon
me and my house?
And so what happened was, is that they promised
her that not just her, but all the people of Jericho,
if they would come into her house, you know, that they
would be spared.
HENRY: Uh huh .
DAVID: So this is the way Christ still shows
I O 2,,
mercy in the face of a pending judgement. In the face
of a catastrophe, that God's going to execute judgement
upon the cities and the nations of men who know him
not.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: Okay, now so the only ordained
minister in all of Jericho, was a prostitute, and that
just kind of goes to show you, you can't judge people
because to whom mercy comes, the conversion comes.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And these are usually more zealous is
getting the free gift than others who don't need as
much mercy. Christ emphasizes this with Mary Magdalene
to whom much is forgiven-
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVIDExactly.
They love much.
Right.
Okay, so when we, when we look at
Nahum and we say to ourselves, now, this is kind of a
complicated book and that's why a lot of people call
Isaiah, gap! hello?
HENRY
DAVID
gap! hello?
HENRY
DAVIDYeah.
Well, you know, they call Isaiah,
Hello, what is happening?
Someone stepping on the line. We got
O O 21
it fixed.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: when they read through the
prophecies, there's so much there they don't
understand, they can't seem to put the pictures and the
statements together. There's a reason for that.
Because like I said before, we've got Matthew, Mark,
Luke and John, it seems to be quite plain about a
crucified Messiah who's nonviolent. He overthrew some
tables in the synagogue a couple of times, you know.
He made a whip, you know, and kind of, you know,
whipped some people--
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: You remember that, don't you?
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: Some people don't really realize
that, but he could raise his voice a little bit. He
called people fools. He told, he told, go tell hare
that old fox, you know.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: But you know, on the over all, it's
true, like the lady said, when they went to Gethsemane,
Christ did tell his deciples to take two swords, didn't
he.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: But that's all they had. But the
, I 22
thing of it was is that when it came right to himself,
you know, Peter jumped the gun and chopped off the
Centurion's ear. He was a bad shot, wasn't he. He was
going for the guy's head. Well anyway, the thing of it
is, is that Christ did say that he could bring several
legions of angels down, right?
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: But Christ didn't want to do that,
did he?
HENRY: N0.
DAVID: Cause he knew his own deciples really
didn't believe in him yet.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Now he did tell Pilot though, you'll
find this in the record of John. The question was, are
you a king? Now we talked about the bird, the
wandering bird, the lamb.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And the lamb that bird that's
supposed to bring about judgement and counsel, God says
do not scare him. God says hide him from the face of
the spoiler. Okay, now the spoiler must be someone
that's going to be going against this bird. I mean God
says he'll raise up a ravenous bird from the east.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Ecclesiastes says God will rise up at
I O 2.
the voice of the bird. gap! Hello?
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID
gap! the bird.
HENRY
DAVIDYes.
Hello?
Yes. Can you hear me?
Yeah.
Okay.
who's on the line now?
N0
-try it.
Okay.
So Ecclesiastes says God will rise up
Isaiah talks about the wandering
bird, the ravenous bird from the east, okay? Now what
is this counsel and this judgement that we're supposed
to be thinking about in regards to this bird, this
lamb, this wandering bird? Why are we supposed to hide
him for, from the face of the spoiler. well, what
happens is, it says in this time, from that day the
kingdom shall be established in mercy.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And he shall set up on the kingdom in
the house of David judgening sic! and hasting judge--
judgement and bringing everlasting righteousness.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
I I 24
DAVID: Now, it's kind of like wow, we know,
when does that happen? How does that happen? You
know, what does it mean, God rises up at the at the
voice of the bird? Well what position is God in
according to Revelation, do you remember? Is he laying
down? Is he standing up? Or, what's he doing?
HENRY: In Revelation?
DAVID: Yeah, what's he doing on the throne?
HENRY: He, he's sitting on the throne.
DAVID: Well, he sitting, he's in the sitting
position. So that's a good observation. Because when
all the prophecies talk about God arising up, that
means he stands up off the throne, don't it?
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: Now when he stands up off the throne,
I wonder what he's going to do. Well if he rises up
gap! hello?
HENRY: Hello?
DAVID: Steve, can you, can you fix this line
right here? It's, the cat, I think the cat over there
is -- just wait a little bit here. They never brought
us our phone yet. gap!
HENRY : What?
DAVID: Yeah, I guess that's better. Well,
okay. We just, we had to rob a lot of phones and take
their little cords and stick them all together, you
O I ,5
know how flimsy those little inserts are, right?
HENRY:
saying.
DAVID:Uh-huh, oh, okay, I see what you're
Cause where I fell, I haven't been
able to get up yet, and you know, we kind of have to
stretch a phone to me.
HENRY:
DAVID:Uh-huh.
So anyway, as we're looking at the
picture, we know God sits on a throne, he gives the
book to the lamb.
going to come andWe know he's going to come. He's
his testimony is going to be the
spirit of prophecy. He's going to try to teach and
forewarn the generation of which he comes in of the
soon coming impending events of the judgement.
HENRY:
DAVID:
penalties for not
revealed in truth.
going to be their
truth. Cause theUh-huh.
So that men might divert the
listening to this great mercy that's
The truth will set them free. It's
natural nature not to want to know
carnal man doesn't believe in the
things of God. So the way that we have to really
realize there's a God, is we have to stop and ask
ourselves, now wait a minute, in the book of Nahum, are
those chariots really two wheeled carts made of wood?
Or are they really machinery that transport men that
have actually flaming torches that shake the earth and
"', ", 26
sound like thunder and causes the trees to shake.
HENRY: UhhUh.
DAVID: I mean was the prophet really looking
at a tank?
HENRY: He was looking with the experience
that he had at the time.
DAVID: And he was trying to describe what he
was seeing.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: Do you know what, do you know what
they could have done in those days if they had a tank?
HENRY: slight laughter!
DAVID: Do you know if we had a take in the
days in two hundred years ago, we had one of these
Brads what we couldve done? There wouldn't have been
no Indian problem, would there? But I tell you what,
these things are all a part of the gifts of creation.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: when God said in the Book of Daniel
that in the last days much knowledge should be
increased, he means it. And the reason being is, is
that because of a lot of minds of men, in their own
reasoning, they, they create within themselves oh, an
infidel type spirit. Like people will say you know, oh
how can God write all my sins in a book? You know and
it seems like it would take a lot pages wouldn't it?
O U 27
HENRY: Sure would.
DAVID: Well, you know, the God, God had to
in the ancient times, he had to communicate with man
according to the light that they had in the world. And
the form of communication was developed through the
hieroglyphics and finally became more short formed into
the structure of sounds, the syllables, the oratations
sic! of communication, the meaning of signs and
syllables, which became alphabets, numerologies. And,
you know, man, man, like I say has been able to
communicate, whereas in the days of Moses, God very
clearly required that the Hebrew inform men by the
structure of lettering, or reading, which Hebrew is
refined hieroglyphics, you know, and God so inspired it
by writing the, the dialogue, the Ten Commandments, and
you know, God had chosen this means of communication
for men to be able to transfer thought from one to
another.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Although we know that this means
sometimes falls short of actually, presenting the
actual mind of one man to another.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: I mean you can read someyou can
read your girlfriend's letter and really don't
understand what she said. So you'd have to ask, you'd
O I ,8
have to say, sweetheart, I got your letter, but what
did you mean?
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVIDUhhuh.
when you said blah, blah, blah?
Right.
Okay, well the same holds for any of
the prophetic writings.
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: Isaiah made a lot of statements but
we might, we might read his writings, and we might say
to ourselves, well, Isaiah, what did, what did you
mean?
HENRY
DAVID
Isaiah's dead.
prophet writers
HENRY
DAVIDUhhuh.
What did you really see? Of course,
Jeremiah's dead. Just about all of the
are dead, aren't they?
Absolutely.
Yeah, you see, so it's kind of like,
when someone translates their writings from Hebrew or
Aramaic into English, whatever, we're kind of left to
the mercies of the interpreters, aren't we?
HENRY
DAVID:
makes the Bible
HENRY
DAVIDWe sure are.
The translators and that kind of
a little more weak, doesn't it?
Well.
Well, it does, because, like I say,
92 /
" " 29
any fundamentalist will have a certain knowledge of
scripture, but if he got into higher ranks of theology,
with the gentlemen up there that earned their
professors and doctor degrees and all that, right?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: He wouldn't be able to contend would
he? Because like for instance when you talk about
wisdom in Proverbs 8 and 9, our person wouldn't say
well wisdom in Proverbs 8 and 9 is talking about
knowledge of man.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: But of course their Rabbi would say,
you know, he'd say not so, he'd say the word, hokoma
phonetic! which means wise woman, which goes back to
the ancient concept of life. Whereas, you know, we
procreate through a woman, made in the form and fashion
of dust as we are. But our Creator brought this woman
from our side which is a mystery of how God with His
wisdom, the Mother of all Creation, His word, His
spirit, that gives life unto man, can also be taken
from man to make a compatible image for man. In other
words, they twain are one, aren't they?
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: You're not complete unless you have a
man and a woman.
HENRY: Right.
|, " so
DAVID
other.
HENRY
DAVID
one.
HENRY
DAVID:
HENRY
DAVIDOne is not complete without the
Uhhuh.
Okay, so it takes two heads to make
Right.
Okay, and that's fruitful then.
Uhhuh.
Communication, you got to love the
person you're talking to. You got to understand the
person you're talking to. You come together in this
communication. And the highest communication is is
that you all become two as one.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: Offspring. So it bears fruit. And
every good conversation should bear fruit, shouldn't
it?
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: Now, now Christ he doesn't, two
thousand years ago, he doesn't, he doesn't take women
and speak to them when and then come into their bodies,
does he?
HENRY NO.
DAVID: Okay, so, so we know that out of
Adam, came this power to communicate, to reason, to
become one with oneself in the nature of God, and she
I O 31
was Eve, she was Eshia phonetic!.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: He was Esh phonetic! and she was
Eshia. But when they sinned, they were naked and there
was a discommunication, wasn't there?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay, but now, when Christ came, Paul
says he was the fullness of the godhead bodily. And he
never had a woman, but on the cross, when they pierced
his side, a woman didn't come out, right?
HENRY: N0.
DAVID: But blood and water came out. Now
water seems to be a symbol of the spirit. The
submersion in the spirit, pure and holy water of
cleansing. You know, just as we have a dirty body, we
wash our bodies with water, we become clean.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Well what if you have a dirty mind?
How can we wash our minds from filth? Well, we have to
have a different kind of water, don't we?
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Christ talks about living water. He
talks about a spiritual water. He was at a well with a
woman who was a Samaritan woman, and no Jewish man ever
went down to Samaria unless they were looking for
prostitutes.
C U 32
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: So Christ was in Samaria by this well
and this woman in Samaria is there and she comes up and
Christ says, you know, "Give me to drink, please." And
she looks at him kind of like out of the corner of her
eye, and she says, "Sir, how, how is that thou being a
Jew asketh me a Samaritan woman," you know, "for a
drink of water, for the Jews have nothing to do with
Samaritans?" And of course you know, she's questioned
this because that's just the way it was.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And the Samaritans considered, they
were considered half breeds. They were considered, you
know, mingled amongst the Gentiles indiscernible!
second temple time and the Jews just thought they were
too pure them.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And Christ says, "Woman, if you knew
the gift of God, and who it is that asketh of thee to
give me drink, you would've asked me and I would've
given you living waters." Now the woman looks at him
kind of funny because what that means to her is that
he's making a pass at her.
HENRY: Uhhuh .
DAVID: She says, "Sir, how giveth me those
living waters seeing that the well is deep and thou has
I O .3
nothing to draw with?" Now what happens is, Christ
tells her to go call her husband. Go call thy husband.
So that startles her. That shocks her. She says, I
have no husband. And he says, well you indiscernible!
said you don't have a husband, but you've had five
husbands. And the man you're with now is not your
husband. Yeah, you're telling the truth. Now, that
floored her. Okay?
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Now, those living
spirit of prophecy. The ability to
with the very necessities and needs
She said "Sir, I perceive thouwaters was the
know that to deal
of a simple heart.
are a prophet." And
then she went into the subject of, we know the Messiah
is coming and when he cometh he
things. Then Christ tells her,
indiscernible!. Then she goes
about the Samaritan saying that
worship God in the mountains of
HENRY: Uhhuh.will show us all
I've been talking with
and she tries to talk
we're supposed to
Samaria.
DAVID: And the Jews say we're supposed God
in the Temple of Jerusalem.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Then she says, "Wwhat do you say?"
He says, "Woman, verily, verily I say unto you, the
time is coming and even as now, when they, the true
I ¬ 3.
worshippers of God, will neither worship God in
Jerusalem now in the mountains of Samaria." Now,
that's very important information. He says, "for God
is a spirit, and those that worship the father, must
worship him in spirit and in truth." Now, see this
living water, it's a unique thing to cleanse our minds,
to help our minds to know where we're coming from,
where God's coming from. So in Revelations 22nd
Chapter, there is a River of the Water of Life, clear
as crystal. Proceeding from the throne of God and the
throne of the lamb, right?
HENRY: Uhhuh .
DAVID: And what is this living water? Well
John says he was in the spirit. When he literally went
to heaven or whether he had a vision, makes no
difference. The point is, we literally see God on the
throne. Must be. If we have anything to do with this
Bible, must be. New Testament, you know.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And he must give his book to the
lamb. Must be, now that doesn't mean the lamb really
is a lamb. It doesn't mean he has really seven eyes.
It doesn't mean he has really seven horns. But it does
mean that whatever that book contains, the lamb has
authority over it, that's why the horn's a symbol of it
isn't it?
I U 35
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And he also has perfect vision of it.
He knows what's in his father's book. So that when the
time comes and there's time no longer, when this
mystery of God has to be finished, this subject will
judge the greatest nation that's ever been, and a
nation that's been more blessed than any other nation
in the world.
HENRY: That's right.
DAVID: And the keynote is is that sad to
say, scripture forewarns that the heathen will not
understand.
HENRY: Uh-huh .
DAVID: It even goes to explain why they
won't understand. You see Pharaoh believed he was God.
Now most people believe that whatever they think in
their mind is of God. That's what I'm being accused of
right now. There saying, well, he thinks God's talking
to him, so he's just putting a kink, you know, in our
plan or he's scared and he's trying to buy time, or you
know, this is natural for the way men think. A natural
terrorist would do that. A natural, you know, person
that's into apparently a lot trouble would do that.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: But really, like I was telling Jim,
and of the two negotiators that really have it under
O I .6
the belt, I have to admit that you and Jim have it
together.
HENRY: Well, thank you.
DAVID: Not all the guys there. Some of
them, some of them are kind of, you know, hey you know,
it's kind of like psychology is supposed to be really a
sympathy thing. A good psychologist does more
listening than talking.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Because when a person talks out their
mind, you know, they're able to reach into their, their
emotional system, the genetics, the way the mind has
been taught, the way the brain cells have encoded
knowledge and experience. And, sometimes people have
bad knowledge and bad phases of experience, that are
encoded into their mind, and their mind actually
produces a physiological affect on their nervous
system.
HENRY
DAVID
physical system.
HENRY
DAVIDUhhuh.
which produces an ill effect on their
Right.
And people become really torn down
physically. Mental sickness is a likewise a physical
sickness. They both go in hand in hand.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
92
O U .7
DAVID: Okay, so, so a psychologist begins at
the source of all evil, and the source of sickness by
allowing the person to let the wounded heart bleed a
bit.
HENRY: Uhhuh .
DAVID: Let the sore ooze, you know, get the
poison out.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: And instead of a psychologist telling
a person under such drama immediately what to do, they
realize that the person that's having this drama has
already done a lot of things which has produced an ill
effect upon his perception or his course of life.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And so the person really just needs
the time to backtrack and audibly speak without
restraint their views which has led them to the point
of their crisis.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: So you know, this is where you and
Jim have definitely done your job well.
HENRY: Well, you--
DAVID: Go ahead.
HENRY: Well you do your job pretty well too.
And I think, you know-
DAVID: -not bad for a ninth grade dropout,
I O .8
huh?
HENRY: Well, no not bad at all. And I think
that the, you know, the message that you gave on the,
on television and on radio, a lot of people heard, and
I think when you come out a lot of people are going to
continue listening to you. And,
about the people that are within
talking about a lot of Christian
that, whose lives
to you-
DAVID:I'm not just talking
the compound. I'm
people that are, that,
you've touched and who are listening
--well I'll definitely have a long
time, I'll definitely have a long time to give it,
won't I?
HENRY: Well, um, yes, you will. But it
doesn't matter where you're at.
DAVID:
the apostle spent
HENRY:
DAVID:
that.
HENRY:
DAVID:
worry about going
just sit back andThat's true. I mean, you know, Paul,
most of his time in prison--
--exactly.
-giving the last messages, I realize
That's right, that's right.
At least that way, you don't have to
to work or nothing, you know, you can
hopefully, if I'm notorious, they
won't dump me with no bubbas, huh?
HENRY: That's right.
D I 3.
DAVID: Yeah. Of course, I don't know, you
know, there's a lot of rumors that I molest children
which makes me madder than a firecracker, but you know,
there's a lot of bubbas and they, they want to molest
you if they think
HENRY
DAVID
the way the world
HENRY
of compassion for
DAVID:
live.you molest children.]
Uh-huh.
But, you know, like I say, it's just
is.
See, I think that you've shown a lot
the children-
The children are the reason why I
HENRY: Well, and you've shown that, and
that's been very instrumental. You immediately started
letting the children come out of the compound because
some of them are concerned and afraid and they don't
understand everything that's going on. And I think
that that's been real good. And I would
DAVID
a real decision
HENRY
DAVID
so to speak.
HENRY
DAVID
HENRYThey're unable to make at this point
in regards to--
Exactly, exactly
you know, choosing good and evil,
Right.
And-
-and I want us to continue with
I I .0
that. I would like to see you continue sending out-
DAVID: We're going to, we're going to.
HENRY: Okay, good.
DAVID: You know, we're, like I say, we're at
the point now to where, you know, my father, my God,
our God, you know, whether we, acknowledge him or not.
Our God is keeping a very strict and close eye on every
movement that's
HENRY
DAVID
all of heaven's
HENRY
DAVID
HENRY
DAVID:being made.
Absolutely.
And he's watching this nation, and
watching. We know that.
Uh-huh.
We hope that.
Well that's true.
And people all across this country
and even some people in other parts of the countries
are having two positions to look at me by.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: The one position is, is that, well
he's a liar, he said he's going to come out
immediately, which is exactly what I said. But let me
explain something to you about me Henry.
HENRY: Go ahead.
DAVID: There's someone that's bigger than
92
me. Now this is really a political matter. Let me
explain.
U I .1
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, it
was said, it was said, you know, I'll come quickly.
Every intention, every sincerity, was in that
statement. But Paul and the apostles, wrote to their
church that Christ was --
end of tape 33.!