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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #115
3/ll/93 and 3/12/93
10:26 P.M. 11:04 A.M.
qg5 .
O O
Tape 115!
JOHN: --it's handled. Go ahead.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hang on just a second.
JOHN: Go ahead.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER To UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
Oh, really. A couple more gallons of milk.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I have a request for you
JOHN: Laughter.! I think I just heard it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: A couple more gallons of
"milk?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You know the
electricity's been going off and
JOHN: Hey. The - ours has been going off
too.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah --
JOHN: we were sitting in the dark here.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. It has - it
doesn't stay off long actually, but, but --
JOHN: Hey, the electricity was on all night
last night wasn't it?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER T0 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
No, it went off -- yeah.
JOHN: Hey, Kathy.
_ KATHRYN SCHROEDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: We
were sitting in the dark for a few minutes. Yeah,
-_-9I 6
tonight.~
JOHN: Kathy.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
From the, from the storm. v
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Oh, I see.
JOHNi Kathy.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN: The electricity did not go off last
night, did it? l
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No. I don't think so.
JOHN: It did not because we had a very --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, I --
JOHN: we had a very good dialogue last
night. The electricity will not go off tonight,
because we've had a very good dialogue this evening.
But --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, that's good. Well
not --
JOHN: -- I'm sure we, I'm sure we can
probably work something out for the milk when you come
out in the morning. -
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I, I'm not even saying
that the electricity going off has affected the milk,
okay? I'm just saying that if we could possibly get a
couple more gallons --
JOHN: Well, you're in short supply, right.
'__I
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:O 4
-- of milk it would be
appreciated by the babies greatly.
JOHN: I bet they would. And, and I'm sure
that when you come out in the
in in the morning.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
things. If you can bring -morning the milk will go
Okay. Also, two more
JOHN: You're throwing a lot of things at me
now, aren't you?
' KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
David --Please, I just found out
JOHN: Boy, Steve's, Steve's putting a list
together there, isn't he.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
on the front cover --
JOHN: Of?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:I just found out David's
Newsweek and Time.
JOHN: David's on the front cover of Newsweek
and Time.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
cover, but there's an article
JOHN: Um-hum.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
off when I come out as well.
going to call at nine.
JOHN: Who? Who?Maybe it's not the front
in there.
So if you can drop those
John already knows, I'm
4_-sI Q 5
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: John l - 2.
JOHN: Oh, oh, okay. Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm going to call at nine
in the morning so probably shortly thereafter, as soon
as he can get Brian over there basically after that.
JOHN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Because I have already
got myself a little bit packed up --
JOHN: Good, good.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Got a couple -- in the
wash.
JOHN: Let me ask you something. Let me ask
you something. Do you have any medical problems that
we should be aware of?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: N0.
JOHN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm in perfect health.
JOHN: Boy, you're one of the few people I've
ever heard ever say that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hey. I don't even catch
colds.
JOHN: You don't?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No. Come on, I've got
four kids.
. JOHN: You don't have time to catch a cold.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Are you allowed to get
"T9_ JOHN: Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was. I sawh
sick Ugh you have four kids?
JOHN: You don't have time for it, do you?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: N0.
JOHN: But -- well, I wanted to make sure.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Brian was pretty sick
when he came out. - .
saw a lot of the youngsters that came out.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. He was throwing
up --
JOHN: Little Jamie --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- he was throwing up
Monday night that he -- before he went out.
JOHN: Yeah. Saw little Jamie when he came
out. Cute little guy, huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: POOI Jamie.
JOHN: Yeah. .
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He's the same age as my
oldest son.
JOHN: You got to squeeze them and love them,
don't you?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN: Yeah. They need a lot of loving.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I like to smile at Jamie.
I saw him once in the grocery store. I happened to be
in town in the grocery store and Jamie goes to school,6
, I
-_-140' Q
right? And I just, just glanced up and I see Jamie in
his wheelchair and I'm like going, wow, I saw Jamie in
town. And this lady's wheeling him by and a bunch of
other kids and I just couldn't help but smile, you
know --
JOHN: Sure.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- these kids are just
out to adventure and see the world and it's really
exciting for him. Just to hear the noise, you know, is
so exciting for him.
JOHN: well, hopefully Jamie will be reunited
with Sheila before long too, huh? That'd be nice. His
mom.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That, that'd be nice.
He's, he's - she's been worried about him because he's
not in the pictures of the other kids. I'm sure he's
being taken care of - -
JOHN: Well, they have to get him some --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
JOHN: -- some special help, huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN: Some special love. I know. I've got
a little god-daughter that has some similar problems
and they need a lot of love.
v KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It's just amazing that
he's so small --
-¢_-J1
- JOHN: Yeah, for his age. N
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And he's -- yeah, he's
eleven. He's the same age as my oldest son.
JOHN: How does, how does he comprehend?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I think he's eleven.
JOHN: Mentally?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: As far as I -- I don't
know too much about him, but I do know that he -- that
sounds will either soothe him or frighten him.
- JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He, I mean, if I get up
close to him and just - if he's crying or something,
if I just get up close to him and talk to him or, you
know, just show him my face, it soothes him greatly.
Just to see that somebody's around.
JOHN: Oh, you bet. You bet.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: But, I mean --8
JOHN: well, I saw him when they brought him
in here and he was with the, with the ladies from
Health and Human Services.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He's real good with the
ladies that --
JOHN: Hey, yeah, he is.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- take him to school an
stuff.
JOHN: He breaks your heart, doesn't he?d
4.7s
to understand -- .
JOHN: Are there
could answer for you? You
to, you know, I want it toI KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. But I it'S hard9
are any other questions I
know? Because I want you
be perfectly clear in your
mind and of course, talk to Wayne and if there, if .
there are other questions, I'd certainly be happy --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, Will I be, Will I
be able to -- that's probably going to be difficult.
See, what I'm trying to do is I, I'm a real picky
person. I mean, I know anybody that's got a degree is
going to be a good lawyer, okay? I realize that.
JOHN: Anybody that has a degree is going --
every lawyer has got a degr 88.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
JOHN: A couple o f degrees.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I want a lawyer that's
going to really understand where I'm coming from.
JOHN: Well --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER
sit -- I want somebody that
JOHN: Believe me
KATHRYN SCHROEDER
JOHN: There are,
here --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Being a
's, that's
: Besides
there are
: S0 -- .mother, know my
got heart, too.
two degrees.
a lot of them out
-V-_poi Q 1°
- JOHN: -- that are, that are interested in
handling that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: 'so what I'm saying is, me
not knowing them and me not knowing their backgrounds,
I wouldn't know who would be best for my situation and
whereas Wayne or Steve might.
JOHN: well, how much education do you have?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I have two years of
college.
JOHN: Well, you, you can assess people
pretty well when they're sitting down talking to you,
can't you?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Do I have to, like,
interview each of them?
JOHN: Oh, no, no. But I mean you can see if
some guy's a used car salesman or somebody's looking
out for your --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
JOHN: - best interest, right.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
JOHN: And that's the key --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: But I can also --
JOHN: -- that's the key issue. whether
somebody is looking out for your best interest. And
Wayne may be able to give you the name of an attorney
to contact in town. Not necessarily a criminal lawyer,
_-s0 Q
but an attorney to contact in town that he has trust
and faith and confidence in who will recommend one to
you.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. I can probably do
that.
JOHNQ You know, he, he is going to have his
friends in town that he has practiced law with that
would give you some good advice --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's a good idea.
JOHN: -- and that may be the best thing to
do.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: All right. That's a good
idea. I'll do that.
JOHN: You know, and -- because you've got to
be comfortable with your lawyer, huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. I, I've never had
a lawyer. I've never been to court before. Well,
actually I did have a lawyer in my divorce, but --
JOHN: But just to handle the paperwork.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. That was it was
a woman and it was just totally all, you know, by the
book stuff.
JOHN: wow. I look forward to seeing you and
I, and I know you look forward to seeing Brian and,
and gettin back together.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. _You tell them to
~_.sQO Q 12
have some-cameras there waiting and you can send the
pictures back here to these people to see how happy
Brian was. '
JOHN: well, I'm sure the media will be there
and I'm sure they'll be showing it on TV.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: oh, no. You mean I've
got to comb my hair?
JOHN: Might be a good idea.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well --
JOHN: You've got plenty of time to get
gussied up.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Don't worry. I already
took --
JOHN: Between --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I already cleaned up.
JOHN: Between now and the morning.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. I did that. I
cleaned up.
JOHN: Let me, let me --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I even washed my hair.
JOHN: Let me mention something to you and,
and - we've had a lot of people call in here from all
over about friends and relatives that are inside there.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Um-hum.
JOHN: And about their welfare and how
they're doing and they're healthy and this, that, and
_¢_-,'3 U 13
the other thing. And, and if you know of anybody in
there - I, I've talked to Steve and given him the
names of several that have called in and I -- and he's
making arrangements. We've talked to a bunch of them
already and he's making arrangements to talk to others,
but if you know of someone that's in there that would
like to get any message passed to a loved one, you just
tell them to either get a hold of Steve or go pick up
that phone that you're talking on because --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Every, everybody has --
yeah, pretty much that word's been passed around
several days now.
JOHN: Good. Good. As long as they're aware
of it, that somebody's at the end of the phone.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: See, there's a lot of
people here, though, John, that don't want to get on --
JOHN: Are confused
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- the phone. No.
JOHN: I know.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Because, because they
hear reports and it just, it just upsets you so much.
You just don't want to even deal with the people out
there.
JOHN: well, see one of the problems is you,
you look at TV in there. I'm sure you've seen the, the
TV broadcasts and all of that stuff, right?
-.-eO Q 14
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN: And so much of what the media is
saying is conjecture, speculation. They don't know.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: NO, they don't.
JOHN: They don't know. I mean, they'll know
when everyone comes out and they hear some stories
they'll know. But it's pure speculation on their part,
you know, as to what's going on and the living
conditions in there and this, that, and the other
thing, so --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It --
JOHN: Take some of it with a grain of salt,
huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It, it's just a shame
that the world doesn't know anything.
JOHN: well, you can tell anybody you want
how you were talked to by myself, by the other John,
and you make up your mind whether you think we were
being fair and reasonable and answered your questions
or whatever --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Believe you me, JOhn, in
my prayers you are in my highest regard. And God's
going to have --
JOHN: well, thank you.
_ KATHRYN SCHROEDER: - God's going to have
mercy on you. I know it. 4
"5"I
»
0 O *5
~ I hope He does.JOHN: I hope He,
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I know He will.
JOHN: Well -_-
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He knows --
JOHN: - believe me, John, this John's --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: - he knows your heart.
JOHN: - not alone. There's a lot of people
out here that all have the same contention that there's
no animosity. We're trying to get this thing resolved
as peacefully as possible because everybody will have
their day in court. And, and it's -- you know, a lot
of people may not like our judicial system, but it's
the best one in the world and it's fair. So, we'll
see. I look forward to seeing you in the morning, huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. I'll be ready.
I'll call you about nine.
JOHN: Is Steve there? Or you got him out
scurrying around?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I don't really know where
he is right now.
JOHN: well, anybody else there?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: There's nobody here now.
There's nobody here next to me.
JOHN: They left you alone?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Sherri's asleep.
JOHN: You mean the Happy Birthday girl?
T,0 Q *6
"KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Sherri had a birthday?
JOHN: 'Yesterday.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Really?
JOHN: Yeah. She didn't tell you?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No, nobody -- we don't
talk about things like that.
JOHN: You don't?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Nah.
JOHN: well, she was - no, no, no. I'm
trying to think how old she was. Forty-three? That's
why she didn't want to discuss it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's just about right.
JOHN: That's why she didn't want to discuss
it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's probably right.
JOHN: They stop counting at 39.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hey, you know they told
Steve Steve's age on the, on the --
JOHN: What, 48, huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Steve's not 48.
JOHN: well, that's what I heard on TV.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's what I heard on TV
too, but he don't look 48. He can't be 48.
JOHN: He sure is.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: There's no way.
JOHN: Born in 1944.
4-_,0 Q!
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Just no way the man is
48. You got to, you got to see him. I mean, I don't
know personally, but, I mean, his wife has some gray
hair --
JOHN: Hey, people would tell me there's no
way I'm my age either. You're only as old as you feel.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I guess.
JOHN: Huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I guess. He, he says
he's 24.
JOHN: Has he ever been known to lie?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN: Well, that's a clue isn't it?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN: You bet.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I think though the nose
gets a little bit longer when he makes that
statement --
JOHN: Just like Pinocchio.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN: You're right. Well, listen. Nobody's
there with you?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No. Everybody's gone --
Sherri's asleep.
_ JOHN: Well, if you, if you can find that
rascal, he was supposed to get back on the phone when
~v'.v1 3
you were done.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Oh, you got my, my
request, right?
JOHN: I do. Milk, Newsweek --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Newsweek and Time.
JOHN: - and Time.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's it. And Brian.
JOHN: You've got it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. All right.
JOHN: So probably --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'll see if I can find
him and have him call you back. How's that?
JOHN: Do that and probably the other John
will be here in the morning.
hang ontoKATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN: Okay? You have a good night's sleep.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Thank you.
JOHN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You too.
JOHN: Byebye.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Byebye.
Connection broken.!
* * * * it
Phone ringing.!
JOHN TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Here. You can
this. I got the --l|! 18
*1-' / 19
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERQ: routine.
JOHN TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: - We are
working on -- hey, I've got it here. I know David's
going to holler, somebody answer the phone --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: They never
explained why they didn't answer that whole series
of - '
Connection never made.!
* * "k * *
JOHN: Hello.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: John?
JOHN: Yes.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: This is Kathy again.
JOHN: How are you?
~ KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Just thought I'd call you
back and let you know that Steve is crashed.
JOHN: He has?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. He's been up a
lot. He was talking to somebody about something and he
just passed out. He's been snoring. So, David asked
me to ask you to change the number of gallons of milk
to six instead of two and make sure it's whole milk and
I will definitely call you right after worship in the
morning. Worship's from eight to nine.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And, and I'll call you
"F-II ', 20
right after worship and start setting things up.
JOHN: Okay. The - let me ask you
something. We - it's our impression that Oliver and
Brad and Kevin are probably going to be coming out
right after you come out.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Um-hum.
JOHN: Is that your impression also?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm not sure if right
after, but yeah. They're coming out.
JOHN: Okay. Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: They
JOHN: They may want to see how you're
received and, and something like that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right. we are, we are
hoping that if I come back to you after I go through
the system you might let me use your phone there or
whatever and call the camp back and let them know that
everything went well with me, you know, for them to --
you know what I'm saying? To know -- to, to use for
good rapport for further negotiations for more people
to come out. You know what I'm saying?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: SO, I know that's totally
up to y'all, but I'll talk to you about that when I
come out.
JOHN: Well, we look forward to it.
-110 O 2
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN: We really do.
KATHRYN SCI-IROEDER: I'm getting, I'm
getting --
JOHN: And I can't tell you that we have the
Newsweek article or the Times article, but we're
sending out for it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN: Because we haven't seen it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. Well --
JOHN: And it may have just hit the stands.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. I have no idea.
Steve had told me that earlier and he may have heard it
over the phone or somebody - radio or somebody said
something. I don't know.
JOHN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If you can't get it first
thing in the morning, well then maybe you can get it
when the next person comes out or whatever, but --
JOHN: Hey, and we understand the, the
interest of the milk.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. If you can't get
the six for me, he said a few. He didn't give a
number. Steve said, oh, well I guess he means two. He
meant six.
JOHN: Well, there's pessimists and there's
-9;' ' 0 22
optimists, aren't there?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. Well, there's a
lot of babies here and they can go through six gallons
of milk pretty quick.
JOHN: Yeah.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And --
JOHN: Do you know whether any of the - do
you know anybody that's got any medical problems in
there that we should be aware of. You know, and I
know --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: There are in here --
JOHN: -- I know Judy's got the problem --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
JOHN: -- because I've seen it on the video.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
JOHN: You know, I've seen that and it didn't
look good.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
JOHN: And, as a matter of fact, it looked
like it was getting gangrenous.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It's getting pretty bad.
JOHN: And that's why - if you have any way
of talking to that woman at all, you don't want blood
poisoning setting in on something like that and she'll
not only lose her hand, she'll lose her arm, she can
lose her life. If, if you know any woman that's got
1- I, 23any irguence over her - and I'm sincere. It's not,
it's not a number to me. It's not a body to me. It's
somebody's life. If you can --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'll talk t0 her myself
and --
JOHN: I know she's --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- because she is worried
about it. She told me tonight that it's getting
bigger. She is a little bit worried about it.
JOHN: Hey, it's not going to get any better
is it? Not there. Because Steve, Steve has told me
that -- I, I asked David tonight if he was taking any
medication because there's a real problem that he can
be confronted with known as septicemia and it's blood
poisoning and it's what killed Jim Henson, the muppets?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Uh-huh.
JOHN: It killed him in 24 hours when the --
once the blood poisoning set in, so it's, it's a
serious thing, but we don't need those problems and if
anybody in there has any medical problems, hey, the
hospitals are here.
KATHRYN SCI-IROEDER: Right.
JOHN: And, and they'll get the best, best
care available.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, I'm sure that once
everybody sees how it goes with me, you know, they'll
_.-_-P,DAY Q 24
be more apt to --
JOHN: That's good.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- make up their mind
that the system is - can be used.
JOHN: And if you, if you think there's
anybody out there that wants to talk to us this
evening -- '
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'll let them know.
JOHN: Can you hold on just one second?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I John --
JOHN: Can you hold on? Somebody's asking me
a question.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. G0 ahead.
JOHN: Hold on.
Pause.!
JOHN: when you come out tomorrow
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN: -- what we would like to do, instead
of just taking some flash pictures, we'd like to get a
video tape of you and Brian that we can send back
inside.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's, that's great.
JOHN: How would that be?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's wonderful.
JOHN: would you have any objection to that?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That'd be wonderful.
-v_.nI d Q 2'
JOHN: Okay. Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm sure that my loved
ones in here would love to see that.
JOHN: That's good. That's good. Well,
listen if there are anybody -- anyone else you can
think of that would like to talk to us, all they've got
to do is go pick up that phone where you are --
KATHRYN SCHROEODER: Okay. And I'll -
JOHN: -- and they can talk to us and talk
to, talk to Judy.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm going to talk to
Judy. Yeah. I'll talk to her tonight.
JOHN: will you? Because I'm serious about
it. It did not look good. You got a -- you're a
better judge of it than I am. You're there with her.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: She knows it doesn't look
good, so I'll talk to her and see what she thinks.
JOHN: Hey, she'd like to be in a position to
raise her kids and care for her kids too, wouldn't she?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Probably.
JOHN: Well --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hey --
JOHN: You don't want to do it with --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- we're mothers, you
know?_
JOHN: You don't want to do it the hard way,
.-*0 0 26
without a hand, without an arm. Something like that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: True. Okay.
JOHN: Look out, look out for their best
interest, huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. I'll talk to her
and I'll see if there's anybody else that wants to talk
to you. I'll tell them where the phone is.
JOHN: Just got to pick it up.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I tell them what the
phone number is and everything.
JOHN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. Thank you, John.
JOHN: See you.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: All right. Bye-bye.
JOHN: Bye.
Connection broken.!
* * * * *
Phone ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: They may have
started early.
JOHN: Let's disconnect -- give it a second.
Disconnected.!
Dialing.!
Phone ringing.!
_ UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: They may have
started early because she's leaving early, which is a
""59I 0 27
good sign. It's a good sign.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
wake Steve up every morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
Phone still ringing.!#2: We've had to
#1: Yeah.
#2: So he's not
#1: No answer.
JQHN: I don't have any dial tone.
Disconnected.!
Phone ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
prayers. Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
wakeup call for Steve?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
had the same problem last night.
JOHN: Okay.
Phone still ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
right? We've never had this on day#1: Could be
#2: Is this the
#1: Night shift
#1: Day shift,
shift? I don't
know. No answer -- usually it's answered by the third
ring.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: We have had
phone problems, though, but it's not a phone problem.
There's nobody there or - one or the other.
-.-~O! U 28
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hello, this is Kathy.
JOHN DOLAN: Good morning, Kathy. Let me
transfer you to the other phone here.
I've got
out now?
out, you
time you
picked up
here.
more thanKATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: How are you this morning?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Oh, I'm cold.
JOHN DOLAN: Cold and damp in there, I know.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It's very cold.
JOHN DOLAN: I know.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: My fingers are freezing.
to put my gloves back on now.
JOHN DOLAN: Are you all packed?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yes, I am.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Okay. You ready to go
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: well, I wanted to find
know, what you can set up with Brian? What
want that out?
JOHN DOLAN: we're arranging to have him
this very, very instant as we speak.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: So he'll be here when you get
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Because it takes about, I guess,
a few minutes to get from that location by
"".'-0' 0 29
van or - to our location here at the hangar.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: But he'll be here when you're
here.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: So it's all set.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I talked to you yesterday
a little about this and I'd like to stress it one more
time, because I think it's really important that we try
as hard as possible to get a good rapport going so that
others are confident.
JOHN DOLAN: we want that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I know you do.
JOHN DOLAN: Very, very much.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: My request, therefore, is
that once I'm through the system, which -- I mean, it
could happen all today.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It, it could be next
week, but once I'm through which -- I mean, I don't
think they're going to charge me or anything, I didn't
do anything, but --
JOHN DOLAN: I know that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If they hold me as a
material witness or whatever and keep me in custody,
then well that changes the matter, but if I get through
T,4
and I'l out on bond or whatever, if ! can set it up30
with Child Protective Services to see the rest of the
kids and give them hugs from their parents and
basically be able to then come back to where you are, I
know that's probably a touchy situation, but if that's
at all possible, to call back in here once again and
tell the people here, look. The system wasn't so bad,
you know, give them confidence.
JOHN DOLAN: The system works, in other
words.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
JOHN DOLAN: Yes.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
the system that this is what
arraignment date and I'm out
of course, that does happen.
JOHN DOLAN: Yes.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
already seen the children so
mothers, you know, your kidsRight.
Give them confidence in
happened to me. I have an
on bond or whatever. If,
And, and also to have
that I can say to the
are fine, you know. The
court's working on getting them placed or whatever and
I told them that you loved them. You know, basically
just a call back, you know.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, hopefully the others will
be out sooner, but I see absolutely no problem with
doing that.
.-5;0 0 3'
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. That would be,
that would be really great.
JOHN DOLAN: Great. Great. I'm looking
forward to seeing you also.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's, that's a lot of
the reason that some of the people are feeling the way
they do. I mean, you know, David aside, you know.
JOHN DOLAN: I know what you're saying.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I mean we all love David,
but --
JOHN DOLAN: I know what you're saying.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- this is our home, so
it was, it was a really - all those matters are taken
into consideration.
JOHN DOLAN: I understand completely. Well,
we're ready to run the vehicle up and, and pick you up
and as we discussed yesterday with Steve, it'll be the
same as the children's pickup, if that's okay with you?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. I don't think
David's up yet and I wanted to ask him one question
before I go.
JOHN DOLAN: He slept real late yesterday.
He was really zonked out. He was --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He was up last night
givingu--
JOHN DOLAN: Was he?
-8,a
0* 32KATHRYN SCI-IROEDER: -- Ba study pretty
late.
JOHN DOLAN: was he? Uhhuh.
KATHRYN SCI-IROEDER: Yeah. SO I'm going to
ask Steve if, if it would be all right to, to bother
him or not and if he --
JOHN norm; well --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: maybe Steve can ask my
question. I mean --
JOHN DOLAN: Maybe Steve could do it for you
or -- is it urgent that, that you ask him now or I was
going to say maybe you could ask him when you called
in.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, you know, I mean me
going out there, I'm also leaving David you know.
JOHN DOLAN: I understand.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I would like to say good-
bye.
JOHN DOLAN: I understand completely.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Oh, you do have the six
gallons of whole milk, right?
JOHN DOLAN: Whole milk. No two percent this
time.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: No two percent. Whole milk.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And did you happen, did92
92
-13;0 0 "
you happen to get Newsweek or Time?
JOHN DOLAN: we're working on that right now.
What happened here is, is - you're not going to
believe this, but they're all sold out. But we'll get
them today. If, if we have to, we'll have them faxed
in, you know what I mean? By Fax machine.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. And the other
thing that probably we need to be asking for pretty
soon is toilet paper.
JOHN DOLAN: I can understand that. Yes,
we'll start working on that too.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If you can start working
on that one.
JOHN DOLAN: That's, that's no problem. I
know the stores aren't sold out of that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: We can get that working. How do
you - okay. Is, is the pickup place then -- we'll use
the same pickup place as the children.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
They didn't know. All of them were sold out but
they're working on getting copies -- even if they have
to fax them in.
JOHN DOLAN TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: It'S
working. She's talking to someone.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What nOW?
"5',:
I, l 34
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. The question I was going
to ask -- do you have a suitcase or, or carry bag or --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. I've got a
suitcase -- I mean, a little overnight bag.
JOHN DOLAN: A little overnight bag; okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And two of my children's
bookbags. O
JOHN DOLAN: That's fine.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I've got some things to
give the kids --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. Sure.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I heard - somebody said
on the radio - somebody said they heard on the radio
this morning that my kids are in South Dakota, or at
least on their way back to South Dakota.
JOHN DOLAN: I didn't hear that report, but
you know it's so --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Somebody just told me a
little while ago.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. It's amazing. We've
been hearing radio reports of all things, I mean, that
are just totally not true. Some are partially true.
It's, it's incredible. we get calls in from all over
the country on what's going on. So --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: -- you know, you could - and
qr!' I 35
CPS ld Protective Service, is Q19 home studies
now. I know that for a fact, so -- why -- one of the
fellows just asked what was in the suitcase. So I
guess besides the books there's just personal clothing
and that stuff?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Personal clothing. I
have a few cassette tapes for my children --
JOHN DOLAN: Fine.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: - of, you know, stories
and stuff.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And, you know, personal
articles, you know. Shampoo and stuff.
JOHN DOLAN: Fine, fine.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Clothing, the, the two
bookbags carry basically school books, because I was
home schooling my children.
JOHN DOLAN: Right. Right.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: So I - I don't know why
I can't. I just want to get them, at least if they, if
they're not - well, whatever. Anyway, that's beside
the point.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Okay. Great.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Basically that's it, you
know. A couple of toys that I threw in for the kids.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I'd like to get the, the
<9vehicle started up there if you're ready to go. I know36
you need to say good-bye --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Am I, am I supposed to
walk down or can somebody take -- drive me down? Or
what?
JOHN DOLAN: The - you mean somebody drive
down -- I'd just prefer that you'd walk out and just
walk down the road and to where the kids were picked
up, if that's okay with you. I know it's a little
rainy, but --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: IS it raining?
JOHN DOLAN: It was before. I don't have a
window here. I can't see anything. I can't see
anything. Well, let me, let me -- one, one -- they
have a question here so let me find out --
you.KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: -- if I can get the question for
KATHRYN SCHROEDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He
wants me to walk down to the gate.
yourself? Pause.!
JOHN DOLAN: Are you able to carry everything
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I think so.
JOHN DOLAN: You can, okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's, that's why I
O 0 3
1 asked.
2 JOHN DOLAN: Fine.
3 KATHRYN SCHROEDER: But, I mean, I could put
4 one of the bookbags on my back and --
5 JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I think that would be --
6 might be better.
7 KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- and the overnight bag
8 on my shoulder and then I can carry the other bookbag.
I 9 JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Okay. I think that might
10 be better.
ll KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Like I said. I'm a
12 healthy person.
13 JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Then we can get --
14 whenever you want to start walking down the road, just
15 if you want to do it now, we can do it now. If you
16 need --
17 KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What time is it now?
18 JOHN DOLAN: It's a little bit - it's 9:40.
19 It's coming up to 10:00, so --
20 KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Why don't we say I'm, I'm
21 going to walk out -- hang on before I make the
22 decision.
23 JOHN DOLAN: Sure. Sure.
24 Pause.!
25 KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. Why don't we say
--syn
I'm going to walk out the door 10:00.
-gs0' 0 38
JOHN DOLAN: At 10:00 a.m. sharp.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. Give me 20 minutes
to --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- at least pass on a
message to David if I can't actually talk to him --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Now, just as an insight,
the agents are going to be very gentle, so you know,
please be assured that there's nothing, you know, along
those lines that's, that's going to happen. They're
going to be extremely gentle and just follow their
directions and they'll be very explicit what they want
you to do.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And Brian's going to be
waiting and you got a video tape to, to tape it, right?
JOHN DOLAN: Yes, we do. In fact, it's set
up on a tripod. I saw it myself.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: It's in the corner of the room.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: And yes, it's all ready to go.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: All right. Great.
JOHN DOLAN: So, great. Great.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I shall see you probably
then in a half an hour or so.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. we'll leave it this way,
-1*3
I D 39
that you'll depart at exactly at 10:00 a.m.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: 10:00 a.m.
JOHN DOLAN: How's that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yep.
JOHN DOLAN: And what I've got about 9:40
now.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I -~
JOHN DOLAN: Now, would it be possible to put
Steve on the phone when you're leaving?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hang, hang on a second.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I have - shoot, I have
9:45 now.
JOHN DOLAN: 9:45? Okay. That's fine.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: IS, is this John Cox?
JOHN DOLAN: No. This is John Dolan.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
No. Dolan. I -- he wants to talk to you when I'm
done.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. Steve said fine
and I'm going to go see if I can get a last word into
David.
JOHN DOLAN: Sounds great and we'll look for
you to depart at 10:00 a.m.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And I got 15 minutes.
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
--.-vKATHRYN SCHROEDER: Thank you.40
JOHN DOLAN: Look forward to seeing you.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. Bye-bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Bye-bye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: bull.
JOHN DOLAN: Good morning, Steve. Let me
switch over. One second.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: How are you this morning?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Very
JOHN DOLAN: Boy, that
last night.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It'S
over here.
JOHN DOLAN: Laughter
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeahcold.
rain was unbelievable
definitely not Hawaii
!
So I guess we've got
it pretty much worked out for Kathy and we're, we're
trying to get the others worked out here too now.
JOHN DOLAN: That's great. That's really
great. Who else is intending to come out?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: There's going to be another
four for sure.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Those are the folks we
spoke about yesterday?
. STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. I don't know if we
-- if I mentioned there's going to be Rita Rfadle also.
-qy;0 0 *1
JOHN DOLAN: Rita Riddle.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That would be another one
that is going that I don't think I mentioned.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Excellent. So that would
be Oliver, Brad, Kevin, and Rita?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Wonderful. Wonderful.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And of course I will be
talking with quite a few yet today, so let's see. I
guess that's -- let's see, what else is there? Yeah --
any, anything there that you wanted to say or --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Definitely we -- if you -- the
power's working okay, isn't it?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. The place -- my hotel
actually flickered last night. I said, holy cow. I
mean, I thought the lights were going out in my place.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: But, we'd like to, like to have
the people watch the press conference tonight. I
really think it's going to be interesting today.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Because with the exception of a
few individuals and I stress few individuals against
*1:-~0 f 0 42
whom serious charges, you know, are going to be
pending, all other adults are going to be treated as
material witnesses.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: So that's a really -- a big
plus. And then follow --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. And then following the
crime scene investigation at the compound, all
individuals who are not held for trial will be allowed
to return to the compound.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: So I think that's a big factor,
because I'm sure there's a lot of people who don't have
any other place to go.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's true.
JOHN DOLAN: So they'll be allowed to return.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: And you know whatever the
modifications they want, you know, get some windows or,
or -- on the windows.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's great.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It really is.
v JOHN DOLAN: You know, we've -- we started
something, you and I a few days ago and this is just --
-qr-'é 43
I Qthe momentum is continuing, so --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good.
JOHN DOLAN: -- that's good. It's really
good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good.
JOHN DOLAN: And I appreciate all your
efforts in there. It's been, it's been tough. I know
that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let's see. So what, what
time do you have there, John?
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. My watch may be a little
bit, little bit fast --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: -- or a little bit slow, rather,
but I'm looking around 9:46, 47. I think Kathy was
going to come out some, some -- exactly at 10:00 a.m.
according to her watch.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Right.
JOHN DOLAN: So we're probably looking at ten
minutes. And then when she comes out and then, then
we'll, you know, we'll work on all the other stuff and
get that done.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Actually what I'm
going to do is try to work out who's going next now
and --
JOHN DOLAN: That'll be fine.
"*7-9v Q 4'
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Apparent y they want to go
one by one. At first I was going, I was going to try
to get them all to go at the same time, but I guess
they wanted to see how she did and, I mean, not that
they aren't -- I mean, they're coming for sure by the
way.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Who, who is - who do we
think will be next?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think the next one - I
think it's going to be Oliver.
JOHN DOLAN: Oliver?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Very good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's the one that expressed
- when I was talking with them, one of the first ones
that I, I talked to that I thought might want to be
going and so I think, yeah, he'll be coming next.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Great. Great. And I
think the fact that, you know, some people do not have
a place, or for that matter, a lot of funds. The fact
that they can return there afterward and have a place
to stay and so on, you know, might be, might be a good
thing.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: And it's, you know, I think it's
a humanitarian thing too. That they have some place --
-<I_nlSTEVE SCHNEIDER: Well
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Yeah. So that's allfinitely would
be.
arranged, that's been cleared, and that's a guarantee
and so on and so forth. So --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Apparently somebody had
been watching the news or something last night and it
was spoken of that, I guess, David was on -- was in
Time and Newsweek. Do you know anything --
JOHN DOLAN: Yes, yes. You know, this is
amazing, but we sent, we sent a couple of fellows out
this morning to the -- one of these like --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They're all sold out.
JOHN DOLAN: It's all sold out already. So
what we're going to do is we're going to call back east
and have them facsimile copies out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see.
JOHN DOLAN: Facsimile copies. So it won't
be as clear. You know how those Fax copies are, but
the - but you can read the whole thing.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: So we're working on doing that
right now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see. Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: So, yeah. We'll definitely --
those will be definitely here today._ They'll be in
Q0' O 46
this morning, so that'll be -- we'll get that done.
STE'E SCHNEIDER: I mean it's more -- in
fact, David, 1e don't even care, but it's a couple of
people are curious and they - there's no question it
won't be good. In the first place, I don't -e he has
no interest in it, it doesn't seem at all.
JOIN DOLAN: Yeah. Well, you know, yeah.
You know the press. I don't think it's going to be
praiseworthy
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh yeah. Well, no, of
course not. Okay.
JOIN DOLAN: Great.
STJVE SCHNEIDER: Is there anything else that
we can do ri;ht now?
JCIN DOLAN: Nope. We got -- everything is,
is just, is just great and I'm looking forward to
seeing Kathy and then we're going to have Kathy and
Brian togetker here at the hangar.
S! EVE SCHNEIDER: Good.
J<HN DOLAN: And then we're going to have
Kathy call you back.
SFEVE SCHNEIDER: Good job.
JHHN DOLAN: Great. Great.
S EVE SCHNEIDER: Right now, I'll be battling
the cold al>ng with trying to do some more talking,
but g
'15' 47
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- this place definitely is
miserably cold.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Now, probably if it's
okay, if you could come on the phone when she's going
out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, okay.
JOHN DOLAN: That might be a good
coordination. You and I could keep --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll do that for
sure then.
JOHN DOLAN: Great.
STEVE SCHNEIDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll talk --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just a minute.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
Yeah, right. They're going to go faxing it -- right.
They're going to have it. They're going to have the
facsimile of it. Yes?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, David I just -- he's
talking to me. He says he would like it, if it's at
all possible -- in fact, he'd like to have original
copies.
JOHN DOLAN: Original.
-qr;I 0 '8
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of the Time and Newsweek.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Okay. I will -- I'll do
my absolute utmost.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: If we have to get them driven
down, we'll get the originals driven down from
somewhere.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: But we'll, we'll get that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Thanks.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, let's work on -- what
we'll work on doing is we'll get the faxes in first and
then we'll get the originals following that, if, if
that's a start.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: But, yeah, we'll absolutely get
the originals.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: Definitely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll call you back
as soon as she's ready. I'll go see if she's got
everything together here and make sure she's out at
-45-;0° I '9
JOHN DOLAN: Great, Steve. Thanks so much.ten.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I'll be calling you
right back.
JOHN DOLAN: Talk to you right back.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Bye-bye.
Connection broken.!
ak k * it k
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: What time is
it?
Dial tone.!
JOHN DOLAN: Hello.
KATHRYN SCI-IROEDER: Hello. This is Kathy.
JOHN DOLAN: Hi, Kathy. Let me switch over.
One second.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Hi.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I just got to let you
know I'm running around. I'm trying to get out the
door, but I'm just not ready. I've got to give
everybody one last kiss goodbye.
JOHN DOLAN: Just take a deep breath and give
everybody one last kiss goodbye.
. KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. I just don't want
you to think I'm, I'm messing up. Okay?
-v:=92
0' I
finishJOHN DOLAN: You're
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'll be out as soon as
JOHN DOLAN: I know
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
JOHN DOLAN: Have Steve give me - do you --not.
that
Okay
just give me a rough idea, because
the vehicle on standby to pick you
OVGI .KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
JOHN DOLAN: It'S te
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Oh, my gosh, already°
JOHN DOLAN: Already
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
JOHN DOLAN: Bye-bye
Connection broken.!what
n-.-0
Q
we do have to have
UP
time is it?
about ten after ten
By 10:30 definitely.
All righty.
Okay
Talk
Bye-
* * k it
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, S
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okteve
ay.to
bye
*
JOHN DOLAN: How you doing?you.
Let me switch
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not too bad.
JOHN DOLAN: GOOG.
--._-rs 51
She's about ready to go outG
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
here. Is there going to be the press conference now
or --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. They're still going
through with that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I wanted to -- let's see.
I'm going to send her out. Is there any way I can go
watch it though?
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Just send her out and go
watch it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. we got, we got a
problem that has nothing to do with you guys. It's --
we've been listening to a radio station, AM 1190.
JOHN DOLAN: ll9O .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Some woman called in and
acts like she's part of us. Has an eight-yearold
daughter here that she gave 180,000 and we're preparing
for Armageddon, and we're waiting for the Lord Jes- I
mean -- no - it's no truth.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. I know that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Nothing - we didn't even
know such a thing at first.
JOHN DOLAN: I know that. Like you said,
there's, there's all this --
_ STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, but can we -- when she
gets out, can she make at least one phone call and you
A-,stay right there. All she needs to do is call that man52
and say we have no -- we don't know who that person
was. We disavow what the person had to say. Can you
allow her to do that?
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Who, who do you want to
call? Just, just give me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, Kathy Schroeder, when
she gets out there. Just have her call, I think it's,
it's 1190 --
JOHN DOLAN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: and it's this Ron
whatever his name is. I don't know.
JOHN DOLAN: On 1190?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
some woman on there that is
she's crying. I mean, it's
believable.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay
yeah, let's get Kathy out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
make sure that she can call
JOHN DOLAN: I'll
we -- okay. we, personallyYes. And she he's got
acting like she's in here,
incredible. It's almost
we'll, we'll check, but
we'll check on that.
well, no. I mean, no. But
and --
tell you what. If, if, if
will call over here.
We'll have, we'll have the guys, the special agents,
call and tell him that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Say they from that
-4g-Qf O 53
compound called us and said they had heard that report
and they disavow, disavow this person.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. 1190 AM. And the DJS
name?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe it's Ron Engle --
Engleman.
JOHN DOLAN: Engleman.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: E-N-G-LEM-A-N phonetic!.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. we'll get that done.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay?
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Real good.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: She's going to be heading
out here.
JOHN DOLAN: Heading out right now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Where's, where's the -- is
there a carrier out there yet or they tell me there
isn't or --
JOHN DOLAN: A carrier? How do you mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, she's going to the
gate or --
- JOHN DOLAN: As soon as she comes out they'll
start the carrier. .
_.___' 5.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I see. So she just
waits at the gate then.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Just have her go out now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Real good.
JOHN DOLAN: Great, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Thank you. Bye.
Connection broken.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: He wants to go
watch the press conference.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: They want t0
watch -- they're watching this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: IS she coming
down now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Okay. We need
a - rep that somebody's got to call that guy and say
that the compound is disavowing --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: Let's,
let's --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Recommend
press, press officer call station and say --
End of Tape #115!
I U
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #116
3/12/93
AoMu _ PoMn
0 0 2
Tape ll6!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello, JOhn.
JOHN DOLAN: Hi, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hi. Yeah --
JOHN DOLAN: Let me switch over here, sir.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: Gotcha!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okey doke.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was just talking with
David for a minute and he, he had listened. We, we
taped the, the conversation off that radio station.
He's not too happy about it.
JOHN DOLAN: I can understand that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If either, if either
yourself or Kathy would call the man and just say to
him that this is through Steve Schneider -- '
JOHN DOLAN: I'll do it. I will do it myself
personally.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I would love -- and,
and then we'll listen on the radio and just say I'm
with you can say what you want, but just say that I
talked to Steve and he said on behalf of David and
himself and the - there is no such woman they've ever
known._ All that she had to say - I don't know what
kind of a group that the woman's with, but I --
0 O 3
i JOHN DOLAN: what's her, what's her name? _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I guess her name was Susan
and she claimed that she used words like Armageddon,
which we don't use. She used Je-- the Lord Jesus
Christ, you know, these old, evangelical cliches. She
said something about $180,000 being given to David.
That is nonsense, total nonsense. She said a lot of
things that, that sound like - almost like a maybe a
white supremacist group. She said she had a daughter
in here that was --
STEVE SCHNEIDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Yes.
Yes. Just a minute.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: She said she had a daughter
in here eight years old. We have none no children
in here that I'm aware of that are eight years old,
especially a daughter.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. So she's saying that
number one, she gave $l80,00 --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN DOLAN: - number two that she has a
daughter in that's eight years old.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: And - do you remember her name
at all?
_ STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I believe she said her
name is --
.-___,r
I O 4
"JOHN DOLAN: Susan?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Susan. Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: And her last name?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And she said something
about being connected to Paul Fatta, which is nonsense
again.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Connected to Paul Fatta.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: She mentioned something
about gun shows, knowing -- being with Paul or being at
a gun show Friday or something like that -- it's all
nonsense.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. very good. So, I'm going
to say that on, on behalf of Steve, Steve Schneider and
David Koresh --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: - there I'm speaking on
their behalf. There has never been any such woman --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes. we called you and
wanted you to get that out that, yeah, there is no such
person connected with us and what she had to say,
there's no truth to it.
JOHN DOLAN: And there's no truth to that at
all.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Correct.4
4*- JOHN DOLAN: Very good. hat --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay?
. JOHN DOLAN: - that's - the guy's name is
Ron Engleman and -- -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Engleman, 1190 on the dial
AM' 1190.
JOHN DOLAN: AM 11 - and it's Waco?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That, I believe, is Dallas
JOHN DOLAN: Dallas.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I will do that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Thank you, John.
JOHN DOLAN: Thank you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll, I'll be getting back
to you. There's a lot -- pardon?
JOHN DOLAN: Thank you. And I, I will do
that shortly. _ v
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll be talking to
you very soon.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll talk to you soon.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Bye.
Connection broken.!
"k * it "k *
_ JOHN DOLAN: I didn't want to bring it up
because tactically we're not ready.' 5
--_.n . ' V 6
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I just did 8
little negotiation the boss said well, we're not
going to call up any -- radio stations I'm going to
hook you up with Al Cruz. '
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, and we'll make up a little
press release.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: N0, no, no, n0.
JOHN DOLAN: I mean a statement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: All'S we want iS
Al just have Al Cruz call the radio station and say
listen --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: we're in the
negotiations with the folks inside who were listening
-- recorder still going --
Telephone
Telephone
JOHN DOLAN
it's busy in there.
Telephone
JOHN DOLAN
think I'm going to get them to have somebody sit by the
phone.
Telephone* k it 9: wk
being dialed.!
ringing.!
TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I think
still ringing.!
TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I also
still ringing.!
* * it * * _
.4_-,0 0 "'
- JOHN DOLAN: Hello.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello, John.
~ JOHN DOLAN: Steve, good to hear from you.
Hold on a sec.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I tried to spend a little
time with David. He's still, of course, bedridden and
everything.
JOHN DOLAN: He is, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I got to speak with him to
some small degree here and so Kathy, she got out okay,
I guess. She's all right, then, huh?
JOHN DOLAN: She did, she did, and we'll have
the call coming back into you shortly.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. were you able to get
a hold of this Ron Engleman, I guess it is. ~
JOHN DOLAN: well, let me tell you what I did
on that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: I think, I think you'll be
pleased.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: I went - I told you I'd do this
myself_-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
"1"I O 8
JOHN DOLAN: so I left the phone, which I
should not have done, but -- l
~ STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: - I went directly to the, to
the head guy here and said, hey, you know, he --
there's not just one guy as you know, but --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: - I went to them directly.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: I got everybody together and I
said this is a personal request from David through
Steve to me and I said I personally would handle it for
them. They said, well, we're not inclined to do this
because we don't want to get into that type of dialogue
with those type of stations and people --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I under and I, and I
understand that, too.
JOHN DOLAN: And he said, okay, I'm going to
-- John, I'm going to do this for you once. You and
Steve have been working together. He said, I'm
normally inclined not to do this. We are going to do
this.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: He picked up the phone, he got a
hold of his media guy who at that time was moving from
the convention center, said come directly to my office.
.-.,I
O Q 9
~ STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
JOHN DOLAN: Came directly to the office and
he ordered him to call that station. So it's going to
be done. And I just spoke to the media guy and I said,
please give me the time that you called in there
because I want, I want to relay that to Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Good, good.
JOHN DOLAN: I will get that -- it's being
done and we will do it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see, because this guy
is going to be off the program in about another 15
minutes.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I'll pass that on and
make sure he expedites. My, my, my feeling was that he
was going to do it within the next five minutes, but
I'll make sure that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, that sounds good.
JOHN DOLAN: he expedites it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They're listening, yeah. I
mean it was a very off-the-wall kind of phone call. If
we aren't already offthewall, John, if you know what
I mean.
JOHN DOLAN: I know what you mean. But, no,
I said I'd do that and I, I did it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: That's 100 percent covered.
4-1 - H
. l0' STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. And they asked me
also about the Time, Newsweek?
4 JOHN DOLAN: Yes. We're working on that. As
a matter of fact, we can dig up some, some faxes for
you, but I don't know if you'd be too pleased with
those, but I'll get the originals --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. He yeah, he
definitely wants the originals. Sherri Jewell's in
here and apparently her daughter was on national TV
with her ex-husband --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, is that right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - on the Donahue program
yesterday --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and is there any way you
can get a transcript of that, because she's obviously
curious as to what her daughter had to say about
herself and others here. It was heard that some things
she said were definitely untrue and she knows that
would be the prompting from the father who is, is
spoiling the child, giving her anything she wants. So
she's definitely she's concerned about her
daughter --
JOHN DOLAN: I understand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and about the care she's
getting so --
T9{ .
0 on 11
-JOHN DOLAN: I understand 0
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- is there a way to get a
transcript of that program from yes
JOHN DOLAN: Let, let meterday?
see what the
situation -- I don't even know where that's broadcast
from. Possibly Chicago or the Midwest.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I, I'm sure that
might take you a little bit there.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. It's going to take a
little bit of time. Okay. Now, we definitely will
have Kathy call in and ~-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: -- do you know -- did you want
-- to whom did she want to speak?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Probably to me or to
David
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: or somebody. It doesn't
matter, I guess.
JOHN DOLAN: Fine, fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I he, he also we
watched the press, of course, the conference this
morning at 10:30.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
_ STEVE SCHNEIDER: And he
of things he wanted me to mention.reacted to a couple
I guess one of the
_7-,0 12 Othings they said that we would release these guys
yesterday. But, see, remember when I was still talking
with them I was trying to get them encouraged.
Remember that? Between you and I and --
JOHN DOLAN: Yes. That's always, you know,
that's a matter of semantics between --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, it is, but you know,
the man, your representative, Dick what's --
JOHN DOLAN: Swensen?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I mean, he's using
words like re -- we're not releasing. These people are
choosing. You know, we can encourage, but it sounds
like he's got con -- he does not. They did go to him
and say, do you have anything from the Bible you could
share to us. They requested that from him, but when it
came to this idea of his releasing them, there's
nothing to that.
JOHN DOLAN: I understand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And it actually bothered
him because they do have the freedom of choice and they
are choosing to leave and that's more than being both
respected and encouraged.
JOHN DOLAN: Absolutely. Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And if they, if they could
make it a little more clear, because they aren't being
held and I am talking to a lot of people and if anybody
_-_-,iii
1I, ', 13
wants to go, I am going to encourage them to do so.
JOHN DOLAN: Great. And I, I appreciate
that. And I will tell him personally about that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, like I, I of
course, I do go back and talk with David, let him know
what's going on, or who might go and all that, and he
just -- he's just interested in these people. He
want's to make sure they're doing well and that they
will be, you know, treated well and so forth, so that's
-- I go back and forth now and then and he's at least
not so bad today where I can't talk to him.
JOHN DOLAN: Good. I will personally talk to
Mr. Swensen later in the day and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. Good.
JOHN DOLAN: - we will --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And by the way, that wasn't
the Dick that I had been talking to - ~
JOHN DOLAN: No. No, no, no, no.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Because I --
JOHN DOLAN: No, no.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I didn't think SO.
JOHN DOLAN: No, no. I think you could tell
from the voices.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I think you're right
about that, but someone said, is that the same one. I
said, I'm sure it's not, but --
,.¢_,0 0 14
JOHN DOLAN: I'm sure it's not, too.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Don't even pass that on any
further.
JOHN DOLAN: I wonit pass that. That's
between you and me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But anyways --
JOHN DOLAN: If it would be possible to have
somebody near the phone it might expedite
communications in case something came up and in case we
needed to do something. If you, if you could have
somebody hang by the phone. I know you're busy. But
maybe somebody -- u
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I, I - well, most
of the time I will be here. The only time I will go
away is they're having a few others that before maybe
they make a move they want to first have me video them,
so I'm going to try to do that today for sure --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, I know. I know you got a
lot going and, and I appreciate your efforts and I know
that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: It's just that sometimes like we
have some stuff going which we may have number one the
call from Kathy and we want to arrange the milk
T0 0 15
delivery too.
swmvm SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: So, it's, it's good to have the,
the communication lines --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was going to say too,
David did comment in regards to that press release this
morning. He said that like for instance, they, they
made the point that they were not able to come into the
compound or into the building to take out their men.
But no, in fact, they did. I'm positive -- David said
he was sure that they came into the one place and, and
took them out right from the building even and he said
no to that. I -- we were wondering why, you know, some
of these kind of answers when they were, they were
actually viewed --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. What I think happened on
that is the -- not -- the facts are not all clear,
because you got one agency breaking off and a new
agency starting.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I mean this is the ATF
agent that answered that way --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, the ATF agent.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not, not Swensen.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. I didn't think it was, I
"'1'"
didn'tlthink it was Swensen, because --
facts.16
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. NO, he didn't --
JOHN DOLAN: He wouldn't even have those
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let's see. What else did
he say? Let's see here. Press has told -- okay --
well, again, in -- and in regards to that --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, I was just handed --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: -- handed a note.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. He was just advised on
the air and he will pass the message out over the
air --
won't get
they willSTEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. -
JOHN DOLAN: - in approximately ten minutes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. What --
JOHN DOLAN: Hold on, hold on a second.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: I misread this message here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. Okay. He said, they
the message to him for about ten minutes, but
pass -- they can't interrupt him. He's, he's
-.-v '! I, 17
on the air. But they have contacted the station --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
' JOHN DOLAN: - and they will advise him
that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good.
JOHN DOLAN: It's been done.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. Very good.
Very good. .
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. So I just wanted
make --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And what about the
we had a question about so the -- there was --
a judge that has denied that attorneys come in
with us or, or help out?you
que
has
andof
to
been
talk
You know, you know, David did mention one of
the strongest points he thinks that there would be a
lot more people coming out. Now, he himself -- now,
remember, he's waiting on God himself. And there are
people like I've told you many times that they're
waiting to see what's happening there.
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I wouldn't be surprised
if I or if we couldn't get this going to where a lot
more - a very good-sized group of these people would
come out. And he mentioned like this Ron Engleman has
mentioned about coming in and maybe getting something
49,I, I. 18
going or-being able to talk to the people. They might
even go out with him. But, you know, it, it's
something -- we've talked about maybe an intermediary
or someone that, that is between us or something.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That it might make a
difference - and a lot of these people have told me
that.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. The --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, it's something for you
to, you know, think about anyway.
JOHN DOLAN: well, let me run it by - let me
run this by, you know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: You know, you know, I'm - as
you know, I'm straight from the shoulder --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right, right. I
JOHN DOLAN: And you and I've got that going
and I'm not going to let anything destroy that. I can
tell you this. The tactical commanders will not let
another person, an outsider, in there. The --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, what, what happened
in the past like with -- and some like was mentioned,
which is true, you know, the weaver case of course they
have and I know there's been other instances and it's,
you know, it's a case-by-case thing.
0* 0 19
1 I JOHN DOLAN: It's a caseby-case thing and,
2 you know, they've elected due to the large number --
3 see, Randy weaver was a single person. He had two --
4 one pre-teenage girl and one teenage girl.
5 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. I realize that.
6 JOHN DOLAN: And so he was a single person.
7 There was another person with him by the name of Kevin
8 Harris and Harris had been --
9 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
10 ' JOHN DOLAN: -- at that point at least,
11 apparently mortally wounded.
12 STEVE SCHNEIDER: But in this case though
13 like, John, for instance -- David believes as to
14 everybody here that very good intentions were shown
15 right from the time that the incident happened about
16 making sure that the wounded were -- came in, no one
17 was fired upon, no one wanted to do that. They wanted
18 to make sure they got off and got care right away. You
19 know, right from the beginning we believe we've tried
20 to work the best way possible for, you know, the good
21 of all.
22 JOHN DOLAN: No argument at all.
23 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
24 JOHN DOLAN: No argument at all.
_ 25 _ STEVE SCHNEIDER: So I might, you know, there
may be a pretty strong request from David. I, I mean,
--3-1l I 20
that's why I'm already starting to bring it up, because
when I was just in there he, himself, is the one that
mentioned this about Ron Engleman, so I --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. As far as Mr. Engleman
goes, what does he -- what's his attitude?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Apparently he must be a
talk, a talk show host or something like that on that
radio station and he, he seems to be, in the eyes of
David, to be a fair man who is very patriotic, meaning
he, he's into the Constitution and I guess the man
himself has even offered to do something like that. So
David, knowing that the man is not, you know, of
course, he would be promised safety or whatever else,
but anyway just by what the man said, David thinks that
the man is sincere.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, but that's why he
mentioned him. I mean and by contrary, someone said
on that radio station that David has been a listener of
this guy. He's never heard of the man before and
neither have I.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, I See.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm not a - we're -- I'm
not one that's really much into the radio in the first
place._ This is the first time, really, in years that
I've taken any time to listen once in a great while.
-.-1 I
I U 21
- JOHN DOLAN: No, me either. I'm mostly that,
that - we use the radio in the car somewhat, but
that's, you know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, like - yes, same
here. Once in a while I'll turn it on in an automobile
when I'm going --
JOHN DOLAN: Right .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: to and fro, but --
JOHN DOLAN: It, it kind of fills the time
Awhen you're driving.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly. Exactly.
JOHN DOLAN: I, you know, I think that if we,
we approach Mr. - this gentleman, Ron --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: -- that -- you know, there would
be no problem. we talked about a pool camera, but if,
if this is the guy that he'd rather have or in
conjunction with a pool camera outside something like
that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uhhuh.
JOHN DOLAN: I think we could work that
out. How's that sound?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay, we'll let's keep
on - we'll you and I will keep on dialoguing --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, we'll dialogue that.
Yeah.
4-./.1 ' 0 ' 1/ 22
" STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- like that, you know, you
can probably start talking to some of the commanders
there about it or whatever you think it needs to be --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure, sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I think it maybe would
go a long way though -- it would help me even, you
know --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- to get this thing taken
care of.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Let's get this resolved.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to be -- in the
next little bit here, I'm going to be talking to Ollie
to see when now he's going to be ready to make the next
move to, to be going out himself.
JOHN DOLAN: All right. Excellent. was --
did, did he have any concerns after seeing the
situation with Kathy? was he -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, I guess, apparently
what he's doing right now -- I didn't get - and I
haven't really even gotten to talk to him yet today.
I, I --
JOHN DOLAN: Right .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- haven't even seen Oliver
yet. But when I talked to him last night it sounded
like he'd be ready to go and he was going to wait to
"7I
~' e/ 23
hear gum. Kathy and everything andgen he -- I guess
he's going to be about ready to go out the door
himself.
V JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. Excellent.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: One of the, one of the, one of
the people here just mentioned that they could save
them a run with, with -- drop off the milk and then
possibly Oliver could get in with them. Just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That, thatd probably be
all right.
JOHN DOLAN: -- coordinate that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. What about the
facsimiles of the Time, Newsweek thing or the actual
article, you know, meaning the, the -- the magazines
themselves?
JOHN DOLAN: Oh. would a facsimile be okay
to send in? _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he actually -- David
did -- he said, no, he wanted the actual --
JOHN DOLAN: wanted the originals of what we
were working on?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So you haven't been able to
obtain that yet.
.-4-,/ s
. 1
O O"24
JOHN DOLAN: I can send in facsimiles. we've
got them of only one --
' JOHN DOLAN TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON
me. What is that that we --
JOHN DOLAN: Newsweek. Okay. we
facsimile of Newsweek. How about if I send
It's up to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that'd be
JOHN DOLAN: All right. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But if you can,
mean --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.EXCUSE
do have a
that in?
helpful.
I mean, I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- what he really wants, of
course, is the two magazines, so.
JOHN DOLAN: Is that - say again. Is the
actual hard copy.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. The Time
Newsweek - 'and the
JOHN DOLAN: The Time and the Newsweek.
we're absolutely, definitely working on those --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: -- and we will eventually get,
but I will send you a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I appreciate that.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll put that - how
put that in a brown envelope and then --about if we
¢...I I/ 25
- STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sounds good.
JOHN DOLAN: -- on one of the runs, but -- on
one of the runs that we make?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay? So I'll tell you what --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: would it be okay -- well,
how would, how would you like to do that then? If
Oliver comes out then they leave it out there maybe
after he's taken away, then maybe Greg comes out
pick it up? Or should we just wait till he gets
there and then we'll make a call or you and I'll
talking or whatever you'd like to do.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. What I, what I was
thinking of doing is that we were going -- would
the milk run --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.to
out
be
make
JOHN DOLAN: - and then when we come up, at
the same time, Oliver would come up and go in with the
gentlemen there and then the unit would leave and then
whoever wants to can come out and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Then Greg can
after the unit leaves then he can go walk out there and
pick it up. All right.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Greg can go out and pick
up ---
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's fine.
4.?~
0' 0 26
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. when do you want to do
that?
" STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to be talking to
Oliver here pretty quick and --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I guess he's just
waiting to hear from Kathy. I -- he might want to get
on the phone with her just for a minute, so --
JOHN DOLAN: That's -- sure. That's
absolutely fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: So we'll, we'll hook up Oliver
and Kathy if you want --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. That's sounds good.
JOHN DOLAN: -- if you want to -- is that
what you want to do or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then we'll, we'll start
going right from there.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Hold on one second.
We've got the milk ready, though.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: IS - the
milk is ready?
JOHN DOLAN: The milk is ready --
K .O92 O 2
. STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: -- is what everybody's nodding
their heads here. "we've got six gallons of whole
milk --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good, good
JOHN DOLAN: -- to go and so
Ol - can you -- you think you can get
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes. Most
JOHN DOLAN: All right. whywe could -- if
Oliver ready?
definitely.
don't I have in
say approximately -- just, you know, in the next 15-20
minutes or so, have the unit come up -- okay, guy says
to me we can, we can get it faster -- have the unit
come up with the six gallons of whole milk --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
JOHN DOLAN: - Oliver will come out, he'll
go with the gentlemen --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, remember now, it's --
he's waiting for Kathy to call first, so I can't --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I can't
just yet until he speaks to her.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, he wants to
huh?rush him out
speak to Kathy,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Right.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. How about the other
gentlemen?
.
0'» I or 28
' STEVE SCHNEIDER: I got to go talk - I
haven't even seen them yet today, because I got up and
I, I've spent - most of that time I was behind a TV
screen and then talking with David about that and I
just came out from there to talk to you now.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, I see.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So I haven't talked to
Kevin yet or to Brad.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I mentioned, I think,
to you this morning that there might be another woman
that
JOHN DOLAN: Rita. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. In fact if Rit --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I've got to - I've
still got to start talking with her yet because I just
last night is when I was first -- I went around
again talking to as many people as I could and then
when I talked to her, she started to show signs that
she was willing -- or wanted to go also. So I got to
- I have to - I wanted to mention her name at least.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So I got to still spend a
littlelmore time with her so --
JOHN DOLAN: She needs a little bit more time
_92_ 4 ./ 29Operhaps than --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Right.
JOHN DOLAN: to feel --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, but I'm sure she's
going to be going, from what I can tell and from what
I've, what I've talked to her already about.
JOHN DOLAN: Just, just as a thought, you
know, sometimes - and I, I, you know, have seen this
before - where people like a little physical support
to be with them. Perhaps Rita would like to, you know,
come out with Oliver or somebody like that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's possible. I, I
mentioned that to them, by the way. I did. And that,
that may be. She might go with one of the guys that
like either Brad or Kevin maybe.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I think Oliver - he's
going - he's waiting - after talking with Kathy, I
think he's going to be about ready to go right away,
so --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, Oliver you mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. How about Brad?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I haven't -- I got to go
talk to him again today. I mean he's, he's going.
JOHN DOLAN: He's going.
,_,.0 ~ O *0
' STEVE SCHNEIDER: But what time, I don't
know. I got to see what he's up to, if he's got
something packed or just what he, what he needs to do
yet or whatever.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. If that, if that packing
is a problem, you know, we can always get his things on
a subsequent run, so --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: 5- it's not like it's -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's, that's good.
JOHN DOLAN: It's, you know, and we'll get
the stuff to him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Right. If they get
out there and they need anything, just pass it back to
me -- yeah, we can do that.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh yeah, sure. In fact, in fact
that remains open for anybody. "
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. '
JOHN DOLAN: The children or, or Kathy, if
she left anything behind.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Right.
JOHN DOLAN: we'll just, we'll just pick it
up on, on one of the runs and just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So I'll be waiting to hear
from you and Kathy in, in a little bit then.
JOHN DOLAN: In just -- .
O U 31
~ STEVE SCHNEIDER: In the meanwhile, I'm going
to - I'm going to go talk --
JOHN DOLAN: It'll be just a few minutes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Good. Then I'm
going to go talk to some of the others right now and
I'm going to get that camera ready to because Pablo
Cohen wants to be filmed first, I guess.
JOHN DOLAN: Pablo wants to be filmed, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. If you could --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then he'll pass that on
to you and I'll probably film maybe a - maybe quite a
few others, because there's a lot of names we haven't
given you yet, so if they want to I told them - I
encouraged them to get behind the camera.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Don't worry -- we'll get
the filming done, but you know we'd like to ~- we got
such great things going, we'd like to make sure that
the things are kind of prioritized.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. I understand.
JOHN DOLAN: So if you would be kind enough
to leave somebody by the telephone, Kathy will be
calling in shortly. In fact --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Someone will be
here.
JOHN DOLAN: In fact, if you want to -- just
I O 32
momentarily, if you want to leave Oliver there, that'd
be --
A STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know where he is.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've got to go find him.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So that's what I was going
to do right now. I haven't even talked to him yet, so
I'll go to, to find him or see what he's doing. If
he's ready or whatever.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. If he's ready you can
check on Oliver and if you'd --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: have somebody by the phone
we'll have, we'll have --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good. We'll, we'll do
that. ~
JOHN DOLAN: Great.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll talk to you in
a bit.
JOHN DOLAN: Talk to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Bye-bye.
Connection broken.!
* * * * k
JOHN DOLAN: I screwed it up -- screwed the
,,_.0 0 33
dial. Sorry about that. Dana, can I switch, switch
you there so I --
DANA: Sure.
Telephone ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Calling down.
You ready?
Telephone still ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: it'S like
everyone's moved to a different location, because we
had Rachel pick up the phone, Steve --
Telephone still ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: We're going to
get along great, I can yell -- muster up some help,
this is not a one-sided deal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: But it is the
most important job here, I'll tell you that.
Telephone still ringing.! '
JOHN DOLAN: Damn. I told him, get some --
I'm going to tell him again -- somebody by the phone.
No, I want to get Wayne on -- yeah.
Telephone still ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. S0 I'm a
little testy today --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I can understand
why the HRT guys are pissed at you all the time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -- my sarcasm.
,-92
_/ ' 34
I O- Telephone still ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Me too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: did you read
this teletype?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: NO.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: - Seventh Day
Adventist high school -- starts having a sexual
affair --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: A senior?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: A senior, but
she's a teacher.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: All right!
Telephone still ringing.!
JOHN DOLAN: I know. I can't believe it.
Telephone still ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They were killed
by the Government power? _
JOHN DOLAN: Damn.
Connection broken.!
Telephone redialed and ringing.!
JOHN DOLAN: I can do it from this -- over
here? Yeah? Oh, okay. Great. what's that number on
it? 799 867-9166.
Telephone still ringing.!
JOHN DOLAN: Try the other number?
Telephone still ringing.!
__<0 -9 as
' JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, without the number.
Telephone still ringing.!
Television/radio being heard in background.!
Telephone still ringing.!
Connection broken.!
* * * * *
Telephone redialed.!
Telephone ringing.!
Connection broken.!
* * * * *
Telephone redialed.!
Telephone ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, they're
playing, playing games.
JOHN DOLAN: This makes sense - because we,
we told them earlier on that we'll talk to you and then
they'll be off to the homes -- same system works for,
for the adults. '
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Don't talk to me,
show me.
Telephone still ringing.!
JOHN DOLAN: That's what we're thinking of
doing. Off-line.
Connection broken.!
_ JOHN DOLAN: I don't think that's such a bad
idea. .
I0 0 36
' * * * * * 1 .
2 Telephone being dialed.!
3 Telephone ringing.!
4 JOHN DOLAN: How is the weather today?
5 1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Cold, very windy.
6 JOHN DOLAN: Oh, yeah -- food's here they'll
7 answer. Oh, yeah. Works -- always works that way.
8 Worked the other day. They want to call us. I don't,
9 I don't --
10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, tell them
11 our foods here.
12 JOHN DOLAN: I can tell them I'm mad, but I
13 don't holler.
14 Telephone still ringing.!
15 JOHN DOLAN: -- came in and in ten minutes he
16 perceived the whole situation.
17 Telephone still ringing.! -
18 JOHN DOLAN: She said that phone was in a
19 place where
20 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They're playing
21 games.
22 End of Tape 116!
23
24
25 _
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE # 117
3/12/93
-2:24 P.M. 5:53 P.M.
-F!0 0
Tape 111!
PHONE RINGING REPEATEDLY
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: H6110. _H¬ll0.
[gap] PHONE STILL RINGING
JOHN: Hello.
STEVE: Hello, John?
JOHN: Steve? Hold on a second. What
happened to you?
STEVE: well, what's happened? I've been
waiting for hours. what happened?
JOHN: We've been, we called about 900 times
STEVE: What?
JOHN: Honest to God. I can give you an
exact count. we've been calling since --
STEVE: I couldn't figure what's - I've
actually been sitting by the phone even. I, you know
what, John, I even picked up the phone to make sure
there was a dial tone, everything was fine. I thought
well, maybe they're taking a few more minutes or
something's happened or, it didn't make sense.
JOHN: I know, it didn't make sense to us.
We've called, I'd say, let me see, conservatively, 25
times.
STEVE: What happens when you dial?
JOHN: I get a dial tone and I get a ring.
STEVE: well, how weird. The phone, there's
,_.~ 3
nothQg wrong with it unless thereg some, I don't
understand because the thing --
1 ' JOHN: Did you call me?
A STEVE: Huh?
JOHN: Did you call me? -
STEVE: No, I picked, I just picked it up, I
thought, I kept on waiting a few more minutes then
Pablo Cohen came to me and he says, while you're
waiting for the call, can you film me and I says, well,
I guess, so we sat there, we started talking and I kept
on, in fact, the phone's not that far from me and I
thought, that's strange.
JOHN: That's so weird.
STEVE: It is. I couldn't figure out what
had happened because you had said to me, I'm going to
call you in just a few minutes --
JOHN: Exactly.
STEVE: -- yeah.
JOHN: Momentarily, I think was the word we
used, momentarily.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: Yeah, I'll call you momentarily.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: I did. We've called, 25 times,
honestly.
STEVE: Gee whiz, in fact, David even, I just
,.-,1
went and talked to him, I don't know what's up and he4
says, well, let's call them then, so that's when I
decided I'd better get on the phone myself and see what
was happening.
- JOHN: Yeah, what we should, what we should
do is, I'll tell you what, why don't, why don't I call
you back, I'm gonna just hang up and you hang up --
STEVE: Okay, and if I don't hear you within
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
seconds --
STEVE
JOHN:
_ STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
up phone.
STEVE
David so, --
JOHN:
STEVEIf you don't hear within --
One minute.
-- sixty seconds, one minute, sixty
Okay.
-- call me back.
Okay.
Now, as an, as an alternative, --
Right.
- we have Wayne's phone as the back-
Okay, that's quite a distance from
But, but if this --
I mean, I, I can use it, of course,
but then, you know, if we ever need to, if you needed
to talk to David I'd probably have to initiate the call
" 5
and gm. take it to him or somethfg like that.
JOHN: No, no, well, I'm just saying, as a
back-up, we've always got that means of communication.
- STEVE: Okay. This is true, this is true.
Okay.
JOHN: Now, probably what had happened is
that there may have been moisture in the lines because
of the rain.
STEVE: You're right, in fact, every time, in
the past, there's been rain, a lot of times in the past
we have had problems. we've had to call in to the
telephone company and they've been out here and that's
always been a problem..
JOHN: Yeah, yeah, so, that may have been it.
But if it does happen, don't think that I'm not calling
you, 'cause, you know, --
STEVE: Right. I was starting to wonder, I
thought well, that, I thought maybe you guys had some
difficulty or maybe something came up. I couldn't
figure what was going on.
JOHN: Now, Kathy left, since we couldn't get
through, Kathy left a message on Wayne's answering
machine just to prove that, you know, she called back.
STEVE: Okay, what's his name, Oliver, was
actually hoping to talk to Kathy and just ask her a
question or two, but I guess that it's, that's
..-_-,0 ..impossible now is it or what? ' '
JOHN: Hold on a second.
STEVE: All right. '
' JOHN: Okay. Can you put her on the line?
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: Hold on a second. I'm finding out
where she is. Okay, I'll tell you what.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: We need to check the line because we
can't --
STEVE: Call me right back, I'll just be
right here.
JOHN: we can't let this happen again.
STEVE: If I don't hear from you in one
minute, I'm gonna call you back.
JOHN: Sixty seconds, call me back.
STEVE: Sixty seconds, got you.
JOHN: One minute.
STEVE: I'm timing now, bye.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
wk ~k "k * *
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER IN BACKGROUND: S0 he
knew we weren't jacking around. They know we have a
recording on the other machine.
. JOHN: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: checking for
<_.92I O 7
verification.
Background conversation!
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: N0 answer.
-
' JOHN: Hang up and call me back. He's right
by the phone.
STEVE: Nothing's happening.
JOHN: Nothing rang, okay, I'm gonna, I'm
just, let me switch phones here, I usually do.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Okay, nothing came out, you didn't
hear any ringing at all?
STEVE: Nothing at all.
JOHN: Okay, now --
STEVE: I mean, it worked this morning and
you called me a couple times, that's what's strange. I
don't understand what's going on, and no one's touched
the phone, it's in the same location -- _
JOHN: That is really weird. Is there a
little thing called a ringer adjustment where you can
shut the ringer off?
STEVE: well, what happened is someone
dropped the phone, I think yesterday, and the button to
that fell out, but it's been working okay since even
though it's not on the side, I think it fell off inside
the phone or something.
JOHN: Are you using the phone that, that we
..__;I O
sent, or are you using your own phone?
STEVE: I'm using the -- own one. The other
one didn't seem to be that great either, but unless
it's the line again, see, apparently, I don't know.
~ JOHN: No, I think it, it sounds to me like
maybe something happened to what they call the ringer,
you know, the thing to ring the bell. '
STEVE: Maybe, maybe.
JOHN: Yeah. Okay
STEVE: I'll have to, I'm gonna try
somebody hook, what I'll do is switch phones,
use a different one and see that's what it is
I'll have somebody check it or --
JOHN: Yeah, yeah, well, let's see,
STEVE: Okay, someone said that you
out, Greg is standing right by me, apparentlyto have
try to
then.
-_
dropped
he's
looked out the window and saw that they dropped off a
cooler or something?
JOHN: well, what we did, we figured, jeez,
there's a possibility of the moisture line problem, --
STEVE: YES.
JOHN: - so we wanted to up, you know, make
sure that you understood --
STEVE: Yeah, okay.
JOHN: -- we were upholding everything we
were doing _
PI A O 9
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - so we had the milk dropped off at
the usual drop off spot.
" STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: So that's where that's at. '
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: So, now, where does Oliver stand?
STEVE: Okay, now he's down, he's been
anxiously waiting to tell you, he keeps on coming up to
me, asking me, and I says, well, I haven't heard yet.
I says, I'm sure they're gonna be calling any minute
here, so he's all dressed, ready to go.
JOHN: He's dressed, ready to go?
STEVE: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: Okay. 4
STEVE: What I should do is probably - let
me call you right back, let me run downstairs, if you
want, I'll bring him on the phone and then we'll go
from there or what?
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: Okay, let me do that, let me call you
right back and --
JOHN: Call me right back.
STEVE: - and I'll try, I'm gonna try and
grab another phone here so you can ring through.
JOHN: Yeah, please --
"?Y
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
taken care of.
JOHN:
on?
STEVEI, 10
Okay, I'll call you right back.
Call me right back.
Okay, bye.
Okay, thank you.
*****
Hello.
Hello, John.
Hi, Steve, one second.
Okay.
How are you doing?
We're trying to get this phone thing
Did you replace the, put a new phone
That's what he's doing right now, but
he knows both these phones we have, the cord goes
inside the machine instead of, you know, sometimes they
detach from the outside real easy, this one doesn't so
he's trying to figure out just how to do this here.
JOHN: Is this our phone or Wayne's phone?
STEVE: This is a new phone that we had, that
we pulled up, that we forgot we even had.
JOHN: Oh, okay.
STEVE: Greg just found it and I forgot we
even had that thing around.
JOHN: Good.
-7:!I
' ~ STEVE: Ollie, he's just down, he's just all
few feet away from me here. He's talking to someone.
1 ' JOHN:Okay.
' STEVE: I was just talking with David. He's
real concerned because of that woman that called this
morning, saying
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
start happening
a radio station
you know, he'll
what, you know,
JOHN:
STEVEshe's lived here, knew us --
Oh, we handled that, --
And I was, I'm happy, but --
Yeah.
I think, it sounds like it's gonna
a lot. Some other, some other person,
says they were a wife, it's nonsense,
come right out and tell you who and
he's involved with, --
I know that.
He really will, I mean, you know that
just by the video that he sent to you, right?.
JOHN: Let me tell, let me tell you what we,
right. Let me tell you what we --
STEVE: Can I ask you a question in his
behalf?
JOHN: Sure, please do.
STEVE: Okay, here's the statement he just
made to me. He said the next press conference,
whenever that's going to be, if, if your representative
could say something to the effect that there's, well,
..|_-, Q l2I
see, number one, we heard on the news that his own
mother was offered like, 75,000 cash already in behalf
of doing a movie or something by a producer, she's got
an attorney, and apparently she's accepted it. I don't
know if that's as much or all. David's not happy. He
called that blood money. If they want to say any of
this they can, and he even said, well, that's more
money than she made even as a prostitute. He made that
statement.
JOHN: He made that statement.
STEVE: She used to be, way back when he was
a little boy and so forth, that's what she was. That
can be checked out and proven.
JOHN: So that's okay with him?
STEVE: That's okay by him.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: He does not mind if they say that in
a press conference because, he, he, because of that,
that the news said that she made 75,000 for her story,
there's gonna be all sorts of people that all of a
sudden start knowing him, --
JOHN: I know.
STEVE: I think that was the motive. I was
trying to figure out, why would this woman say she
knows us, she was here Friday, and we're all scratching
our heads. What's the motive here? Awell, then I
"7"0 0 1'
remembered about the 75,000 that was mentioned on the
news that, that the mother made and there's a number of
other producers that wanted to do a movie on this,
well, then, it makes sense, of course.
~ JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
of this, and, so
JOHN:
now, she's ready
now.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
you too. .
STEVE:
JOHN:
ahead. Go ahead
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
- KATHY:
STEVE:I know that.
Everybody wants some notoriety --
Excuse me.
- and maybe some finances gained out
he said that
Excuse me one second. Oh, she's ready
now. Oh, good, good. She's ready
Okay.
She wants to talk to you, so --
Oh, great, great. ,
Okay, you ready? She wants to talk to
Oh, that's super.
Okay. I'm going to be on this, go
Hello.
Kathy?
Hi, Steve.
How are you doing?
Okay.
Great.
_-__.5
KATHY:
STEVE:
. KATHY:
me?
STEVE:l4
It has been so lo1.g of a day.
I'll bet it has.
How come you didn't call to check on
we thought that something had
happened. We were waiting every minute, I thought I'd
just give him a few more minutes, few more minutes --
KATHY: Huh-huh. Thank you, Steve, those few
more minutes, I mean, has wasted my day now. I can't
go through the system.
STEVE:
KATHY:
not gonna process
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
that they did._
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
everything we did
KATHY:You can't?
It's, look what time it is. They're
me on until I got a hold of you.
Oh.
So we've been sitting here all day.
we had a problem with the telephone
Water logged.
Pardon?
The lines were water logged.
That's what it was, because --
Yeah.
Strange, I couldn't figure out,
You need, you need to set up
something with the negotiators that if you, if you
..-_-, I Q '5
haven't heard from each other that you do, like, twice
a day, have a certain time that --
- smvn = Right . '
KATHY: - you call anyway.
- STEVE: well, this is, this is it. 'I thought
something had happened. We were trying to call out,
nothing. There seemed to be a, an open phone line --
KATHY: Yeah, you were able to call --
STEVE: - but nothing was going on.
KATHY: You weren't able to call here either?
STEVE: Well, I opened, I pulled up the phone
a couple times, I dialed a few numbers and nothing
happened the one time, so I just thought well, he'll be
calling me anyway.
KATHY: Yeah, well see, they tried calling
you about 25 times.
STEVE: That's what he was telling me.
That's what he was telling me.
KATHY: And it just kept ringing.
STEVE: So everything's okay then though
other, I mean, other than that though, are you fine?
KATHY: Yeah, I got to see Brian as soon as I
got here, we videotaped it, we're gonna send that in to
you.
STEVE: Okay, that's good.
KATHY: I had taped a message to send you,
4-,,i
oh, Igso, you need to find out about Wayne's recorded16
message phone, because they've been trying to call you
on.that. They've been leaving messages, I even left a
message on Wayne's recording.
_ STEVE
KATHY
STEVE
to be.
KATHY
to send you but
STEVE
question. Were
KATHY
STEVE
KATHY
STEVE
KATHYReally?
Yes.
It'sgot to be the weather. It has
So, so I, you know, I taped a message
we don't need to do that now.
I, well, did his phone work, is the
you able, so --
His,his recording came on.
Oh, it did, okay.
Yeah.
I'll
And,
recorder so, um, I had
know, the negotiators,His message --
go check with that then.
and I left a message on the
been questioned by, so far, you
we've been talking about the
well being of the people inside of course.
STEVE
KATHY
STEVE:
KATHYRight
I did mention Judy's finger, and
Good
that if they could possibly get,
maybe a doctor to call her.
STEVE: Good, she was hoping for that.
J,i
KATHY
they can talk her
STEVE
KATHY0
0
advice, you know,
STEVE
KATHY
STEVE
KATHY
out, you know,
STEVE
KATHY
listen.
STEVE
KATHYn
0
I
0
00
00
a
0
00
0
0I, 17
And, and talk to her, you know, maybe
into coming out -- H
Sure.
-- or they can just give her some
Well, that's --
- as to what to do.
That's fair.
I mean, I can't say Judy's gonna come
Right.
all I can say is, maybe she'll
Exactly.
So, maybe they'll work on getting a
doctor to call Judy, because it is getting worse, I
mean, -- .
STEVE: Right --
KATHY: I saw it yesterday.
STEVE: -- it definitely is. I was hoping
they would do that, have a doctor call her, talk to her
and --
KATHY: Yeah, it is getting worse.
STEVE: -- maybe see what happens from there.
I KATHY: But, you know, they've been asking me
about the well being of everybody else. I told them
4?! - 18
Ieverybody else is fine. Right nowg
STEVE: They, they told me they dropped a
cooler off with milk in it up at the gate. I wonder if
they have -
KATHY: Oh, yeah, I was going to ask you
about that. Did you --
STEVE: - a copy of Newsweek or Time, if
they're up there even. I
KATHY: Did you, you haven't gone to get the
milk yet? I
STEVE: NO.
KATHY: It's been sitting there for hours.
STEVE: Oh, it has been. well, I'll send
Greg out to get it then. Tell him, unless --
KATHY: I don't know if the Newsweek and Time
is there. If it is, I hope they put it in something
waterproof. _
STEVE: I do myself.
KATHY: But I know the milk's there. I was
told that hours ago. They brought the milk there so
that maybe you'd see that so you'd call us.
STEVE: Right, well, that's what did cause me
to call, in fact, but, see --
KATHY: Okay.
STEVE: - I was downstairs busy with Pablo,
trying to film him.
.-_-, .
' KATHY: Oh, that's what they said, last --19
Byron talked to you this morning you were gonna go do
some filming. So, that's what they said maybe you were
doing. "But ther
by the -- anyway
cares, huh? 92
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
to say to Ollie?
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
they've been so
STEVE:
KATHY:
the negotiators
STEVE:
a long way with
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
this step, --
STEVE:
KATHY:E
I
Q0still should have been somebody else
I know, you're the only one that
Well, anyway.
Anyway, I'm doing fine.
Okay. Is there anything you'd like
Is he coming out?
Yeah, he will be coming out.
Okay, like I told these guys, I mean,
od, Steve, you know, how --
Good.
- how polite and honest, very honest
Super. Well that's gonna, that'll go
I told them, --
-- alleviating the problem for Ollie.
I told them I'm the first one to take
Right.
-- and as, as, as I go through the
system, and as I can report back to you people and let
F,I
you know what happened to me, that's gonna be all the20
more encouraging for others to come out.
- STEVE: Right.
' KATHY: So that's where I'm at right now.
They asked me if I would help, you know, with that
negotiation process and said definitely, that's why I'm
here.
STEVE: Okay.
KATHY: So, yeah, they do all care. They all
care a lot. You know, I got to see some pictures of
John's children and Mark's children, so --
STEVE
KATHY
STEVE
KATHYOh, really?
Yeah.
well, good.
So, I told them about Ollie, I says,
if we'd have, if we'd had this phone line up, Ollie
could have probably already been out.
STEVE: Oh, he would have been. No question
about it.
KATHY: But, but with no contact, no way of
knowing what, what he was to do --
STEVE: I thought that was the weirdest --
even David says to me, well, let's try to call them
again, and that's when I said --
_ KATHY: They were asking me if maybe you all
were having some kind of meeting, and I was like, no,
..._.you know?
STEVE: No, not at all. In fact, --
KATHY: There was no --
' STEVE: I was, I came up here a couple
times, I sat and sat and waited, I picked up the
the line was okay and he had been calling me all
that didn't make, no one has touched the phones,
line's, it didn't make sense.21
of
phone,
day so
the
KATHY: I know. I thought, at first, maybe
your phone was out, but --
STEVE: And I didn't know, I don't know , I
thought, maybe, I thought maybe it was taking a little
more time than they thought.
KATHY: But you know, every time it rains our
lines get water logged.
STEVE: Well, true.
KATHY: If you, if you think back about it.
STEVE: Well, sure, sure.
KATHY: we've always had that problem.
STEVE: I, it's so cold here, you kind
forget about everything but the cold I guess.
KATHY: Oh, I wanted to tell you --
STEVE: Yeah.of
KATHY: The Texas Rangers and another FBI
agent has been questioning me and they are not asking
me any questions about the incident.v
.-I
STEVE:
KATHY:
situation now,
STEVE:
KATHY: I, 22
They're only asking about ourHuh~huh.
Okay.
Okay? which is basically the same
thing. The negotiators have been asking --
STEVE:
KATHY:Right.
about everybody's welfare, and of
course they, of course the FBI also wants to make sure
that it's safe for their people too, okay?
STEVE:
KATHY:
is safe for their
STEVE:
their people?
KATHY:Uh-huh.
So they're trying to clarify that it
people and, you know --
what do you meant that it's safe for
You know, that were not pointing guns
out the windows or something, you know? You remember
the binocular situation --
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:Oh, yeah.
- when they thought it was a gun?
Oh, yeah.
You know, things like that and I
said, no, definitely, it's nothing like that.
STEVE: I would have thought that with the
sophistication of devices they have they, that's, even
in the process when that happened, those days ago,
.4-_.
0 i KATHY :
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE :
binocular was --
KATHY :
have totally been
STEVE:O 23
They, they --
-- it surprised me --
Yeah.
-- that they, how they thought a
They would have took, they should
able see that was a binocular.
I would have thought so. But anyway,
well, that's good, well.
So, I guess Ollie, he'll be getting ready to go
and where are you
KATHY :going to be then?
I'm still staying here for a little
bit while the Texas Rangers finish asking me some
questions, and, like I told them already, I would not
waive my rights, I wouldn't sign the thing that I
didn't want a lawyer. I don't have a lawyer yet, but
I'm not answering any questions that I don't want to,
you know, based on the fact that I don't have a lawyer
yet. And then, they are trying to work it out with the
court that even though tomorrow is Saturday, that I can
still have an appearance tomorrow in the court.
STEVE :
KATHY:
Sita --
STEVE :
KATHY :I see.
So, they're working on that. Tell
Yeah.
-- and Margarita --
..-_-, I, _-
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
Brown.
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
wonderful. He is
STEVE:
with you now?
KATHY:
getting late.
STEVE:
KATHY:
to rest here.
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:_l' 24
Sita and Margarita.
-- and Lisa --
And Lisa.
- that, oh, and Julie.
And Julie.
'Cause Julie calls Brian, Charlie
That what?
Julie calls Brian, Charlie Brown.
Okay, Charlie Brown.
Tell them all that Charlie Brown is
Charlie Brown's wonderful. Is he
No. He went back to the house. It's
Okay. "
And there's really no place for him
Oh, I see, okay.
Oh, in the video that we taped?
Right.
I had him do the warface for you.
Okay, good.
And, and Mark Young, here, called
Brian, Charlie Brown.
»-_.-4
. 92~/
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:O 25
Yeah, before I even ever said it.Oh, really?
N0 kidding. It's funny, isn't it?
Tell Julie and Lisa and Margarita and
Sita that Brian is -
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
system, I will go
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE:
KATHY:
GREG:
KATHY:
GREG:
KATHY:
GREG:
this I'm sure.
KATHY:
GREG:Charlie Brown's okay.
Charlie Brown is wonderful.
He's wonderful.
And as soon as I get through the
and check on the other kids.
All right, good, good.
Definitely.
Okay.
Okay?
Yeah.
Do you want me to talk to Ollie?
Hang on. ~
Okay.
Hey, Kathy.
Hi, Greg.
How are you doing?
Okay.
That's good. They're listening in on
Yeah. How're ya doing?
Oh, I'm doing all right, how about
-3-.s| -yourself? .
KATHY: You're probably gonna go out there
and get the milk, aren't ya?
GREG: Yeah.
KATHY: Yeah. I don't know if the Newsweek
and Time is there. If it is I hope they put it in
something waterproof.
GREG: Yeah, really. It's pretty cold out
there. It's probably all crinkled up by now.
KATHY: It's probably wet. It's been out
there for hours.
GREG: Really?
KATHY: Yeah.
GREG: I just noticed it about 45 minutes
ago, or so.
KATHY: You didn't even see the tank come in
and bring it? . ~
GREG: No, I didn't.
KATHY: Man, you guys aren't watching.
Nobody's watching.
GREG: Yeah, well somebody was watching and
they told us but they didn't --
KATHY: They didn't think anything of it.
GREG: Yeah.
_ KATHY: well, there's been so much movement
on the property, you know?
.-P' I 27I~ GREG: Yeah.
KATHY: They wouldn't think anything of it.
GREG: Right . '
KATHY: But, no, I1m fine. I got to see
Brian, everything's fine. They are asking about the
well being of, and the, you know, medical status of the
people inside.
GREG: Yeah?
KATHY: And basically, you know, the overall,
they're concerned for everybody's, everybody's safe
removal.
GREG: Right. So, how's everybody out there?
Have you seen anybody else?
KATHY: No, not yet. I, I heard that my
mother is here.
GREG: Really?
KATHY: Yeah. Possibly my mother-inlaw
also. I don't know. vying for, you know, temporary
custody of Brian.
GREG: So what are they holding for? Are
they still holding you?
KATHY: They're, they're not. They're still
questioning me right now, you know, before I even get
my initial appearance. Okay? They just want to get
the background information --
GREG: Initial --
_-v_._0 0 28
KATHY: -- on --
GREG: appearance of what?
KATHY: Before the U.S. Magistrate.
GREG: Are they gonna charge you with
something?
KATHY: NO, he's --
GREG: I wouldn't think so.
KATHY: No, the magistrate, the judge will
make that decision. If he charges me with anything.
"Which I'll probably just mean is be a material witness,
which is, you know, what Katherine and Margaret did.
GREG: Oh, really?
KATHY: Yeah.
GREG: They weren't charged with anything?
KATHY: well, they were originally, but the
GREG: Oh, and they dropped it.
KATHY: But the FBI got involved and dropped
it, had it dropped because there was nothing
substantial against them.
GREG: Oh, that's cool. So, really, nobody
really has done anything wrong so, --
KATHY: Right .
GREG: Other than, you know, what they're
accusing --
KATHY: Other than not wanting to leave their
47-:
homes? "
GREG:
KATHY
GREG:
KATHY
GREG:
kill anybody.
KATHY
GREG:
KATHY , 29
Exactly.
Is there anything wrong with that?
No. You can't blame anybody.
I know.
Nobody wants to hurt anybody let alone
Right.
I mean, jeez.
And I straightened up a couple of
things with statements being said that we weren't
sorrowful about the deaths of the four agents.
GREG: Who said that we weren't sorrowful?
KATHY: A news, a news briefing did.
GREG: Oh, it figures.
KATHY: But these guys, these guys here never
said that, never told them that.
GREG:
about anybody.That's a terrible statement to say
KATHY: Yeah.
GREG: But God sees everything, like I said,
back in 1988, and he will, you know, deal with that
individual in a day of judgement.
KATHY: when I do get out on bond, I'm going
to contact Ron Ingleman --
GREG: On bond?
____I I 3°
I KATHY: Yeah, I'm sure I'll have to have a
bond.
* ' GREG: Oh, really?
. ' "KATHY: Yeah. _ '
~ GREG: Yeah, tell Ron I said hi. He's a
great guy.
KATHY: I'm gonna call, did you hear about
that woman that called this morning?
GREG: Yeah, yeah, he, he found out that it
was a bogus call.
KATHY: Oh, he did find that out?
GREG: Yeah. '
KATHY: How did he find that out?
GREG: So we called up these guys and they
told, they called them up apparently, but Ron
apologized later on.
KATHY: Oh, really, the FBI called him?
GREG: Apparently so. But here's Steve.
KATHY: Wow. Pretty good.
STEVE: Kathy?
KATHY: Yeah.
STEVE: Here's Ollie.
KATHY: Okay.
OLIVER: Hi, Kathy.
KATHY: Ollie?
OLIVER: Yeah.
-_p0 0
KATHY: Hi. .
OLIVER: So, how was it?
. ' KATHY: It was a little bumpy, no, it wasn't.
Everybody says, oh, the tank ride's gonna be bumpy. It
wasn't. It's, you just got to hang on when they turn
around. A
OLIVER: Huh?
KATHY: You just got to hang on when the tank
turns around. That's all.
OLIVER: Oh, I see.
KATHY: Cause it, you know, they have to
really rev up the engine to turn around.
OLIVER: So where did they take you first?
KATHY: To the end of the road.
OLIVER: Umhum.
KATHY: And they were going to put me in a
van, - y _
OLIVER: Uh-huh.
KATHY: and take me down to the other
intersection, but they decided to put me back in the
tank and take me down to the other intersection. You
know how bureau, bureaucrats are. So, when I got down
to the Y intersection, which is where all the cars and
stuff are?
OLIVER: Yeah.
KATHY: They put me in the sheriff's car,
.-V-_. ' 32
Sheriff Ly
where I si
you.nch? "
OLIVER: Um-hum.
KATHY: And brought me to TSTI, which is
t. I've been here all day waiting to talk to
OLIVER: Umhum.
KATHY: I got to see Brian. He was here all
day with me.
kids are?OLIVER: Umhum.
KATHY: I just sent him home at four.
OLIVER: Umhum.
KATHY: To the house, you know, where all the
OLIVER: Umhum.
KATHY: So he can get some rest cause
there's really no place to sit down here.
being and
And, he's
to get me
you know,OLIVER: Did they ask you any questions?
KATHY: Yes. They've asked about the well
the medical interest of the people inside.
trying to get me to do his job. He's trying
to get you guys to come out. And I was like,
I don't know your mind.
OLIVER: Um-hum.
KATHY: You know? I can give you all the
courage if you decide to come out, and I can be the
example here to show you that I'm being treated fairly,
.,_.,0' 0 "
you know?~ I was, I was, very gently treated when the
guys, you know when I first left and the tank sat in
the, in the road for so long?
' OLIVER: Yeah. ' ~
. KATHY: It's because he was going through my
bags and the lady frisked me, searched me, but she was
real gentle and the guy that searched my bags, he did
it right in front of me, I mean, they were just all
real nice and real, um, willing to --
OLIVER: Help?
KATHY: Yeah, willing to give me a good
attitude, you know ~- ~
OLIVER: That's great.
KATHY: -- show that they cared.
OLIVER: Okay.
KATHY: SO --
OLIVER: I guess that's all I really need to
know. '
KATHY: Yeah, well, that's what I'm, that's
what I'm trying to impart to you. I can impart to you
the relationship and the rapport that I have with them
and then that helps you make that decision for
yourself.
OLIVER: Okay.
_ KATHY: And if anybody else wants to make
that decision, you and I can be, you know, the sign.
4., O O 3'
' OLIVER: No worries.
KATHY: Yeah, for them to know that, hey, we
can do this. We're all still the body whether we're in
there or out here. we're all one body.
~ OLIVER: Okay.
KATHY: Okay? we all have, we all have the
same God.
OLIVER: I mean that, Kathy.
KATHY: And these people out here, God's
gonna be merciful with them. You know that, don't you?
OLIVER: Oh, yeah.
KATHY: Because they're really trying their
hardest.
OLIVER: Okay.
KATHY: I mean, you know, they got kids, they
got families to go home to too.
OLIVER: Um-hum. V
KATHY: But, I'm hoping that they want to
learn the seals. I'm hoping that they want to make an
effort now to make a change in their own lives too, and
I'm hoping that this effects them because this is a
case like they've never had before.
You know, but they've all got other things to go
to.
. OLIVER: Okay, yeah, no worries. Um, yeah,
I'm, you know - .
._-_-,1haveII O :5
I KATHY: I told them, I told them you would
done been out of here today if we had had this
phone hook up, hooked up. _
out,
want
that
keepOLIVER: Yeah. Q
KATHY: But --
OLIVER: Well, I'm, you know, I'm ready and
KATHY: -- not knowing what to do --
OLIVER: I'm waiting and, you know --
KATHY: Yeah.
OLIVER: -- I know what I need to do and, --
KATHY: I'm sure you need to, you know, find
you know, how do I do this? You know? You don't
to walk out there and get shot.
OLIVER: NO.
KATHY: You know, you got to, you got to have
communication line open, so, we've really got to
this phone line up. '
OLIVER: Yeah.
KATHY: It's so important.
OLIVER: Okay.
KATHY: Good luck, Ollie.
OLIVER: No worries. Did you want to speak
to Steve?
KATHY: Um.
OLIVER: Does anyone want to speak to Steve?
.--I!
KATHY:
OLIVER
KATHY:
' OLIVER
STEVE:
KATHY:
STEVE: I, 36
Yeah, I want to talk to Steve.
Okay.
Thank you.
Okay.
Hello.
Wait a second.
Okay.
JOHN, IN BACKGROUND: Don't hang up until, we
got to -- use the phone we'll tell you when to hang
up.
KATHY: to John! Okay.
JOHN, IN BACKGROUND: Are they gonna get
somebody else on?
KATHY: to John! Do you want, I'm talking to
Steve now. Do you want me to set up a time with him
for you?
STEVE: It doesn't matter, yeah, Ollie's
ready to come out, you know.
JOHN, IN BACKGROUND: - since they aparently
have contact --
KATHY: to John! Yeah, Ollie's ready to come
out, you know. Ollie's ready to come out, you know.
STEVE: Ask John, do they, did they drop off
a Newsweek and Time magazine, do you know?
_ KATHY: to John! Are you talking upstairs?
Did they drop off the Newsweek and Time with the milk?
___.i
I I 3
' JOHN, IN BACKGROUND: Hold on, I'm sorry, I
can't listen -- at the same time now. Do what now -?
* ' KATHY: Hang on.
STEVE: All right. '
~ KATHY: He's talking to somebody upstairs,
and he's gonna ask that question.
STEVE: I was hoping they would send some
pictures of themselves.
JOHN, IN BACKGROUND: and you'll talk to
them up there on other things, because they still got,
they still have to eat, right?
KATHY: to John! I think they still have --
JOHN, IN BACKGROUND: Okay, go ahead and tell
Ollie good-bye and then, and then you hang it up so you
won't lose Steve up on the other end.
KATHY: to John! Okay, they've got that line
open. . ~
JOHN, IN BACKGROOND: But tell Ollie not to
hold, hang up the phone. Tell Ollie not to hang up the
phone.
KATHY: to John! Steve's on the phone now.
JOHN, IN BACKGROUND: Okay, tell him not to
hang it up.
KATHY: Okay, when I say good-bye to you,
Steve, --
STEVE: Yeah.
-1
I
~KATHY
STEVE
- KATHY
phone upstairs.
STEVE
KATHY 38
- you don't hang up the phone.
No, I'll be on.
Because they're gonna pick up the
All right.
And they'll talk about the Newsweek
and Time because I know they dropped the milk off, but
I don't know --
STEVE
sitting out there
Greg out there.
KATHY
STEVE
KATHY
there.
STEVE
you know, that
KATHY
STEVE
leave the phone
KATHY
STEVE
KATHY
STEVE
KATHY
STEVE0
u
0O
v
0
s0Okay, yeah, I know they did. It's
right now, that's why we need to send
Yeah, I just talked to Greg, -
Okay.
-- and I told him he needs to go out
well, Kathy, take care and you know,
You tell the ladies about Brian yet?
Not yet. I haven't been able to
Okay. You make sure you do that.
I will.
Okay.
Okay.
And Dick and John says hello.
Okay, great. _
A-,sorry0 0
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: One second. I'm
KATHY: And I'm gonna call and talk to you
back after I get through the system.'
STEVE: Oh, great, good.
KATHY: Okay?
STEVE: It's all the better.
KATHY: And, and, see, they want to use me as
a negotiator to help bring more people out. So you
know I'm gonna contact you back.
STEVE
KATHY
STEVE
JOHN:
KATHY
JOHN:
KATHY:
JOHN:
personally, but
here too.
greatKATHY
JOHN:
KATHY
JOHN:
KATHYAll right.
Okay?
Sure.
Kathy, Kathy?
Yes.
John.
Yes, Hi, John. '
I'm sorry I didn't get to meet you
you know, it was a little hectic up
Yeah.
But I'm glad everything worked out
Thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, you talk to Steve.
...1-5very well
even.STEVE
JOHN:
KATHY
JOHN:
KATHY
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN;
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVESounds~good.
I wish you the best.
Thank you..
Byebye.
Bye Steve.
Okay, bye, Kathy.
Hang on, Steve.
Okay. John.
How are you doing?
Okay, real good.
Good.
well, it sounds like it worked out
Sounds that --
Ollie has a better look on his face
He does?
Yeah, muoh better.
Okay.
After hearing her and yourself and
what she's had to say about yourselves.
go?JOHN: Okay, is he all packed and ready to
STEVE: Yeah, he's ready to go.
JOHN: Okay. why don't we do this?
STEVE: Okay.
4-,I O *1
' JOHN: How about this. We don't want to
waste daylight hours.
' STEVE : Right . _
JOHN: Obviously and, so, why don't we send
out Oliver to the pick-up spot, have him picked up and
then as soon as he departs we'll send Greg or whoever
you want to send out for the milk.
STEVE: Sounds good.
JOHN: Sounds good?
STEVE: Sounds okay to me.
JOHN: Okey-doke.
STEVE: Okay. '
JOHN: Is he, is there anyone else coming out
with Oliver?
STEVE: I guess not right now. I went and
talked to the other two guys, they're all ready, they
got cleaned up, they're ready to go and they're a
little concerned cause how late it got.
JOHN: Okay, is that --
STEVE: They're talking to me about going,
they want to go, and for sure, I think they're going to
go now, tomorrow morning.
JOHN: That's fine.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: That's fine.
STEVE: They said they're definitely coming,
l O 4
they made up their mind, I talked to them again. They
haven't, they're all, in fact, all this time they took
getting ready and everything, so, they want to come.
JOHN: Okay, that's fine. Okay, did you,
have you the new phone on now or the old phone? ~
STEVE: Not yet because I've stayed right on
with you and I didn't want to --
JOHN: Let's, --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Let's not lose this connection.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: Okay. Why don't you send out Oliver,
and I'll start the pick-up vehicle on the way.
STEVE: Okay, real, sounds good. to
background! Let Ollie know he can start heading out.
And then, and then, Greg, when he, once he goes, and
they, they move him away, then you can go out and pick
up the milk and whatever is there.
JOHN: Right. Let me just make sure they're
ready to roll, --
STEVE: to the background! I don't know where
he's at. I think he's downstairs.
Apparently he went, he went over to David's room,
I guess, --
_ JOHN: He went over to David's room to say
good-bye.
O Q *3
"STEVE: -- just now to say goodbye or
something like that.
" JOHN: Okay, I'm checking now to make sure
the pickéup vehicle _
- STEVE: All right. '
JOHN: -- is, will be ready to roll so I'm
not standing out there all day, you know.
STEVE: Okay. what happened with the Time,
Newsweek magazine?
JOHN: we have the original copies.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: All right.
STEVE:, Okay.
JOHN: Mint condition, I might add.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: Okay. we scourered the country to
find four of them. It was not an easy chore.»
STEVE: I believe it, I honestly do.
JOHN: we'll get those out there.
STEVE: Okay. I just found out Ollie was
just finishing eating. I didn't realize that he had
food there in his hands. He was just finishing what
he's, his meal there, I guess. He's still biting down.
JOHN: Now, needless to say, you can call me
at any time, and also the night shift, any time.
STEVE: All right.
43,0 0 4
-JOHN: So that's absolutely --
STEVE: Okay.
> JOHN: -- no problem. But why we do have
this technical problem, so to speak --
. STEVE: I'm going to be working on that as,
in fact, as soon as I put the phone down with you, the
first thing I'm doing is going to put on this phone,
try it and see that it's working.
JOHN: Do you want us to send you another
phone?
STEVE: I think this, this is a pretty nice
phone. It's a really decent one, it is brand new,
yeah, and so I think that is going to take care of it
once and for all.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: This one, I think what might have
happened, it's either the water, you know, or.the rain
or what it is is this phone was dropped last night.
JOHN: I think it was the ringer because --
STEVE: I think, I think you could, but what
I don't understand though, is why would it have worked
this morning, right up till noon, though.
JOHN: Yeah, that's really strange.
STEVE: It is, it is.
JOHN: But --
STEVE: And no one's even been around here at
__.,Q I *5
all.
JOHN: But in any case, while we have this
problem, before we get the new one installed and
working properly, -- _
_ STEVE: Okay. '
JOHN: -- why don't you call us every hour on
the hour till we get the --
STEVE: the new -- hooked up.
JOHN: -- communications firmly established.
STEVE: Right. Sounds good to me.
JOHN: Sounds good to me too.
STEVE: Okay. '
JOHN: Okay, great, and then we'll work out
on, we'll have Oliver come out now and --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- and when he departs then Greg, or
whoever you want, go get the milk. It's, it's, I'm
glad it's cool out so it's not going bad.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: That sound's great. Have you located
Oliver?
STEVE: Yeah, he, I guess he's right over,
he's right down the hall from me right now. I guess
he's finishing up eating. I didn't realize that he had
-_.n/-I 0 0 46
put his food down to talk with Kathy and I guess he's
just finishing up the last few bites here.
- ' JOHN: Okay. The pick-up vehicle is, is
ready to go, so --
~ STEVE: Oh, they are. So he can walk out any
time then?
JOHN: Yeah, but I want to maintain an open
line so you and I can --
STEVE: Right. Okay, I'm gonna pass you to
Scott for just one minute until I --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: -- I'm going to go find and see how
close he is to walking out here. Here's Scott.
JOHN: Thanks.
SCOTT: Hello?
JOHN: Hi, Scott, how are you doing?
SCOTT; Oh, fine. Who's this? -
JOHN: John.
SCOTT: John?
JOHN: Yeah.
SCOTT: Is this John #1 or #2?
JOHN: This is John 2.
SCOTT: Oh, okay.
JOHN: How're you feeling?
_ SCOTT: I haven't talked to you yet.
JOHN: How are you feeling?
-.1I. K
I I 4
' SCOTT: Me?
JOHN: Yeah. .
SCOTT: A little cold.
' JOHN: A little cold, huh? It's gonna, it's
suppose to drop down a little chilly tonight too, a-
little chillier.
. SCOTT: Yeah. '
JOHN: It's going down to around 10 or 15
degrees.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: So, are you feeling okay?
SCOTT: Oh, yeah. "
JOHN: No bad scratches or anything?
SCOTT: Scratches?
JOHN: Yeah.
SCOTT: A couple holes.
JOHN: A couple of little holes, I know,
how's it doing?
SCOTT: Other than that --
JOHN: How's it doing?
SCOTT: Huh?
JOHN: How's it doing?
SCOTT: Fine, just my hands are a little numb
from being, 'cause I can't stick it in a pocket or a
glove or something.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah, but otherwise it's okay?
..-9.,I O *8
'SCOTT : Yeah.
JOHN: Good, good, good, glad to hear it.
SCOTT: Yeah, the swelling's going down and
~ JOHN: Have you soaked it in epsom salt or
something?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay, has that brought the swelling
down?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Good, good, good.
SCOTT: Epsom salts, you know, peroxide.
JOHN: Good. _
SCOTT: You name it, I put it on here.
JOHN: You put it on? How about, do you have
any antibiotics you can take?
SCOTT: Oh, yeah, I've been taking this pill
twice a day or something.
JOHN: Like penicillin or something?
SCOTT: I never heard of it before. It's
Doxycycline or something.
JOHN: Doxycycline, okay. That's good.
Well, that's good.
SCOTT: It just says for infections, so I
don't know exactly what it --
JOHN: well, I was going to say, let's hope
_--|I I 4°
it, you know, that should keep it from getting infected
hope, well, I'll have to look it up but one's for pain
and one's for antibiotics so --
' SCOTT: Yeah. .
. JOHN: we'll try to get a doctor to talk to,
talk to you guys and make sure that you're not getting
any infection or anything.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: So are you thinking about coming out
possibly in the near future some time?
SCOTT: well, I don't know.
JOHN: Okay. "
SCOTT: It depends, you know.
JOHN: Okay. What, what are you basing your
judgement on so to speak? On coming out?
SCOTT: Well, you know, like, it's my free
will, right? _ 4
JOHN: Absolutely, totally.
SCOTT: Okay. I'm glad you guys realize that
now.
JOHN: Absolutely, totally. Your free will,
completely.
SCOTT: My free will is if he goes out, then
I'll go out.
JOHN: Okay, so if David goes out you'll go
out.
so
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay. -
SCOTT: I got no problem with that.
JOHN: Hey, that's no problem with us either,
you know? No problem whatsoever. I respect your
opinions.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: I'm glad you're okay, though, as far
as your wound is, it's getting better.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: It sounds like it's good. Have you
seen, have you seen Judy at all? '
SCOTT: Yeah, Judy's doing better too.
They're putting garlic, raw garlic on it.
JOHN: Raw garlic?
SCOTT: And it, like draw the poison out.
JOHN: Okay. -
SCOTT: And her finger's gone down
considerably. It's about a third smaller than it was
before.
JOHN: I guess it was really puffed up at one
point.
SCOTT: Oh, yeah, it looked like about two
thumbs worth.
JOHN: Aw, jeez. .
SCOTT: I mean, like, you know, it looked like
_-,I 0 51
somebody stuck a balloon in her finger.
JOHN: Aw, jeezr Holy cow. That's pretty
scary, you know?
' SCOTT: I was ready to get the butter knife
out and cut it off, you know? a
JOHN:- You were gonna be Dr. Scott for a
minute?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: I'm glad you didn't have to do that.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: well, in all seriousness, we can kid
around a little bit, but we all do look forward to
everyone coming out safely, you know, and yourself,
obviously yourself.
SCOTT: Yeah. I realize that, you know, and
like Greg, I think Greg and Steve were saying, you
know, the media saying that we, you know, want another
shoot-out and that's a bunch of baloney, you know,
cause --
JOHN: Aw, please.
SCOTT: - we never wanted it in the first
place, you know, and it's unfortunate that it happened
that way, but, you know, we don't want to see anybody
hurt, you know?
JOHN: And that's exactly the same way we
feel. That's exactly the same way that we feel.
._-,0 0 52
l SCOTT: You know, we never had nothing
against anybody, you know, nothing personal, you know,
it's just too bad.
' JOHN: I know, I know, so, that's exactly the
same way we feel, and the bottom line is, is to prevent
anyone from getting hurt in the slightest way and I'm
talking about --
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: - anything, sprained ankle, anything
at all.
SCOTT: You know, and it's like, they said
we, you know, didn't express any remorse or something,
it's like, that's a bunch of crap, you know?
JOHN: I know that.
SCOTT: I was pretty upset. You know those
media guys, and I tell you what --
JOHN:. Go ahead, -
SCOTT: They can only report what, you know,
what they hear, -- '
JOHN: Um-hum.
SCOTT: -- which is mostly rumors, but it
sure doesn't sound too good sometimes.
JOHN: I know what you're saying, I know what
you're saying, and, and you only have one end where you
can only, you know, you don't get to answer their
charges or you're only there, you know, sitting,
O Q 53
listening to what they say.
SCOTT: Yeah. .
~ ' JOHN: It's got to make you want to stand up
and shout, you know, and say hey, wait a minute, you
know? '
SCOTT: At least that guy, Ingleman,
apologized for putting that, what's the name, the lady
on that said she --
JOHN: Oh, he did.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: He did apologize?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Did he do it today?
SCOTT: He said, you know, she sounded
convincing and I chose to put her on and it turned out
that she had nothing to do with them and it's my
responsibility, full responsibility and I apologize.
JOHN: Well, I went to the boss on that, and
actually the group of bosses here, and I spoke to them,
personally, and I said, there's something I want to do
myself for Steve and David, and they said, what's that,
and I explained to him about that Ingleman thing and
they said, well, you know, generally that's not our
policy, we're not suppose to do that and so on I said
well let me, let me go through with, with you what
Steve said about this guy Ingleman making these
0' O 5'
outrageous statements about an eight year old child in
there and about $180,000 in --
3 SCOTT: Yeah, yeah, that girl or whatever.
JOHN: -- that he, that he's connected --
yeah, yeah, so the bosses well, looked at me and said,
you know, you personally want to do this for Steve and
I said, yes, I do, and they said, well, generally
speaking we don't, we don't go in that direction in
dealing with the media they said, but in this case, in
this case we're gonna have our head media guy call up.
So the head media guy called the station directly and
he spoke to a Julie Van Deeden Phonetic! who's
actually at the station, and apparently the guy said he
apologized or something like that and he's gonna re-air
it again that he was wrong, that he should, that this
lady was wrong.
SCOTT: Yeah. '
JOHN: So, I'm glad we're able to get that
straight, but by the same time, you got to understand
that there's people from all over the country doing
stuff like this, calling in ~-
SCOTT: Yeah, they want to, they want to get
famous, you know?
JOHN: Oh, yeah, yeah, of course, you know?
- SCOTT: We've seen some of the t-shirts and
stuff, I mean, it's ridiculous, you know?
0' I 55
"JOHN: Anybody to make money, you know?
SCOTT: You seen that score card shirt?
JOHN: No, I didn't see the score card.
SCOTT: That was sickening.
JOHN: N0.
SCOTT:' Us and you.
JOHN: NO.
SCOTT: It was a score card, you know, like,
how many, you know -- _
JOHN: Aw, please. No, that's, that's
disgusting.
SCOTT: It's pretty bad. '
JOHN: No, I haven't seen that, no. You
know, you just, but that's gonna bring out people who
are going to lie, take advantage of the situation, try
to make money, say outrageous things. You can
understand that. -
SCOTT: In Newsweek or some~ one time they
showed that iced tea?
JOHN: Iced tea, yeah.
SCOTT: And they had that L.A.P.D. shirt, it
says L.A.P.D., we treat you like a King.
JOHN: Oh, no, I didn't see that.
SCOTT: That was - Y
_ JOHN: You know, that's incredible. Every,
every event that you can think of, of.any disaster,
Y
OJ O 56
somebody's gonna take economic advantage of it or try
to take economic advantage of it --
SCOTT: Yeah.
.
' JOHN: - you know, and the one part that we
were talking to Steve about the other day is that
yourself or somebody in there, when they come out,
they're gonna have opportunity to rebut all these crazy
charges --
SCOTT: Yeah.A
JOHN: That's the really, you know, thing
that's gonna happen, and be able to rebut all these
things, you know, so, we're looking forward to that
happening because we don't like misinformation any more
than you do because it puts a black eye on everybody,
you know, I mean, it's ridiculous.
scoTT=~ Yeah.
JOHN:_ And I just, it just is discusting,
but, to answer your question I did not see that score,
score card shirt and I'm really glad that --
SCOTT: It's a good thing you didn't.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
SCOTT: I bet it would have made you pretty
upset too.
JOHN: You're darn right, you're darn right.
So, anyway. Have you talked to David at all today?
SCOTT: No. I talked to him last night.
0 0 5'
JOHN: How's he doing?
SCOTT: He seems like he's doing okay. His
wound is still draining, you know, out the back.
JOHN: The exit wound? Y
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Is he getting blood out of that or is
it just fluid or what's coming out of there?
SCOTT: It's like a pinkish, it's not so much
blood, it's like a pinkish liquid.
JOHN: Pinkish liquid.
SCOTT: Yeah, it's not blood.
JOHN: It has a pink color to it?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Yeah. Is he getting a lot of drainage
or a little drainage? '
A SCOTT:_ It's not really a lot, you know,
just, I think it's continual. '
JOHN: It's continual. Yeah. .How about
antibiotics? Can he get some antibiotics like --
SCOTT: well, he doesn't believe in taking
that kind of stuff, you know?
JOHN: Oh, that's right, yeah, that's right,
yeah.
SCOTT: I mean, shoot, for somebody that's
wounded the way he is, it's like, you know, like that
guy said, it's miraculous. .
.~,I .", 58_ JOHN: Did you see the enlry wound?
SCOTT: It doesn't, it doesn't look infected
at;all.
~ JOHN: Oh, the entry wound doesn't look
infected at all?
SCOTT: No. There's no redness or swelling.
JOHN: well, that's good.
SCOTT: Just the hole.
JOHN: Just a hole, huh?
SCOTT: Yes.
JOHN: Yeah, we saw it on the videotape, and
in the front it just looked like a hole, but on the,
the rear --
SCOTT: The back, it's a little bit bigger.
The hole is a little bit bigger.
JOHN: Um-hum.
SCOTT: And it's, you know, it's still open.
JOHN: Open?
SCOTT: It's not sealing or anything but it's
like dripping a little bit.
JOHN: Is he putting gauze on that to absorb
it?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Good. You want to keep the bacteria
out of that, you know, so that it does not get
infected, you know, that's the thing, --
isD O 59
'SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: ~~ so. I can - a familiar voice in
the background there. ' '
SCOTT: Huh?
~ JOHN: There's a familiar voice in the
background. -
SCOTT: Yeah. It's Greg.
JOHN: Oh, it's Greg, huh?
GREG , IN BACKGROUND: Aloha , John .
JOHN: What did he say?
SCOTT: Yeah, me and Greg are from Hawaii so
he said Aloha.
JOHN: Oh, Aloha, Aloha to him. We're about
End of tape #117!
_~<r"
0 A 0 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #118
3/12/93
5:53 P.M. 7:47 P.M.
"92 .I: I 2
SCOTT: -- born in Hawaii.
JOHN-2: Oh, okay.
SCOTT: I got all my relatives in Hawaii.
They're probably watching this and, you know, probably
upset.
t JOHN2: Saying what's
there?
SCOTT: Yeah.this guy doing in
JOHN-2: we want to get him out.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN2: Yeah. Did you surf over there?
SCOTT: Huh?
JOHN-2: Did you surf?
SCOTT: Yeah. In fact, I had 80 days absence
in my junior year and they told me if I had one more
day absent I'd be a junior again
said, oh no. -
JOHN-2: What so 80
SCOTT: Yeah. we used
and go surfing.
JOHN-2: Oh, yeah. Do
over there?
SCOTT: Huh?
JOHN-2: Do you need a
SCOTT: Sometimes you,the next year, so I
days of surfing, huh.
to cut out from school
you wear a wetsuit
wetsuit?
you know, when it's
like chilly outside, then you just wear like a wetsuit
..-¢m -
I O
jacket - . _
JOHN-2: Uhhuh.
SCOTT: -- but 90 percent of the time you
don't need it.
JOHN-2: Well, you know, even Southern
California this time of year they have to
wetsuit.wear 8
SCOTT: Yeah, because the water's cold.
JOHN-2: Yeah. Yeah. Even --
SCOTT: But over there it's great.
JOHN-2: Even in -- yeah. They
tournaments over there, right? The world
SCOTT: Yeah. They got them at
North Shore -- you know, Sunset Beach andhave the
tournament?
Waimea, Old
all that.
JOHN-2: Yeah. So your -- basically did the
board. I mean, you didn't do, you didn't
boards or anything --
SCOTT: Oh, I did everything.do boogie
JOHN-2: Oh, you did boogie boards too?
SCOTT: Party surfing, did boogie boarding,
board surfing.
JOHN2: well, there's a -- because there's
couple of places in Southern California -- well, more
than a couple probably, numerous places that make the
board to your specs, you know. 'With the fins --
SCOTT: Yeah, yeah, right.
0?
JOHN-
three fins on the
SCOTT
' JOHN-
SCOTT
JOHN-
them, right?
SCOTT
JOHN-
SCOTT2
2
0
0
2
2
0
0' I
I saw-one the other day. It had
back, you know.
Yeah.
One on each side, one in the middle
Yeah.
And I get - you can customdesign
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
They got all kinds of -- they, they
came up with all kinds of gimmicks, you know.
JOHN-2: What, what kind of board did you
use?
SCOTT: I just used a regular one with a
diamond tail.
JOHN-2: Diamond tail?
SCOTT: Yeah. It's like a - it's got like
it's not - they got what -- swallow tail, which go
-- you know, goes in.
JOHN2: Yeah.
SCOTT: In the middle?
JOHN-2: Umhum.
SCOTT: And a diamond just kind of goes out
in the middle. And it's like straight edges on --
angled_edges on the back.
JOHN2: Oh, I got you. Okay. Okay.4
8
_-.¢' ;q I. »
0* 6 5
'~ SCOTT: They call it a diamond tail and they
got swallow tails and, you know --
JOHN-2: And then you use the leash for your
ankle to --
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: Yeah, yeah.
SCOTT: Of course, you don't want to use the
leash when it's too big, because you know, the board --
you can't get away from your board then.
JOHN-2: Now, that board will come back --
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: - and give you a little -- a minor
headache.
SCOTT: Yeah.
SCOTT: You'll be lucky if you just get a
headache. . ' .
JOHN-2: Yeah, well, exactly. Do you know
where Steve went? Is he still looking for Ollie or
what? I
SCOTT: Yeah. -
JOHN-2: Okay. That's what I -- he kind of
indicated to me he was going to come back when he found
him. I guess maybe Ollie is saying goodbye.
_ SCOTT: Oh, excuse me.
JOHN-2: That's okay.
0 ~* 6' 6
SCOTT: Yeah, yeah, he's - Ollie was eating
and stuff, you know.
JOHN-2: Did you do much surfing in Southern
California?
. _ SCOTT: No, I didn't surf at all when I went
to Southern California.
JOHN-2: Oh, I was going to ask you what
beach you liked the best.
SCOTT: Oh -
JOHN-2: That, that's a big thing out there
as you well know. But, like I said, this time of year
it's, it's definitely wetsuits.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: It's incredible some of the, some of
the places they surf in Southern California though. I
mean -- _
SCOTT: Yeah. '
JOHN-2: - from sismo, Manhattan, Redondo,
and San Diego has some really good --
SCOTT: I was, I was wondering okay. You
guys saw the video with all of us interviewed, right?
JOHN2: I sure did.
SCOTT: Okay. I request that, you know, my,
my father at least be - have an opportunity to obtain
custody of my children?
JOHN-2: Um-hum.
c
H SCOTT: .And I was wondering like7
if he was
contacted or if there's anyway you would know?
JOHN-2: Okay. I don't know that -- you
didn't furnish me his, his address and phone number. I
know that. Did you give it to anybody on the other
shiftpossibly?
SCOTT: Well, I just put it on the video, his
phone number.
JOHN-2: Okay. Okay. Yes, they
phone number, somebody passed me the note,
being contacted.
SCOTT: Oh, good.
JOHN-2: And what I will do is I
once he's contacted, to get a message back
speak to you personally with that message.do have the
and he is
will try,
to you and
SCOTT: Oh, okay. I appreciate that.
JOHN-2: That's my pleasure, my pleasure.
SCOTT: Because, you know, I just want him
not to worry so much because he's a, you know --
JOHN-2: Yeah, I --
SCOTT: I love him a lot, you know. He's a
real good guy, you know.
JOHN-2: Well, I can, I can understand, you
know. I can understand how you feel about
That's --that.
SCOTT: Yeah. And he's always been against
I 5me berg in this thing from the beginning and I always
told him, hey, don't worry about it, Dad, you know, I
know what I'm doing. I'm old enough, you know.
' JOHN-2: Okay. 'I'll tell you what. Just so
that I can ensure that it's done, just give me the
number again, just so that I can double-check there's
no error or anything that didn't get --
SCOTT: Okay. Hold on a second, okay?
JOHN-2: Sure. I appreciate it.
SCOTT TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: You Want to
give me your mom's address too? Okay?
SCOTT: Okay.
JOHN-2: Okay.
SCOTT: My dad's number is 808 --
JOHN2: 808.
SCOTT: 689.
JOHN2= 689.
SCOTT: 4457.
JOHN-2: 4457. Let me just read that --
SCOTT: And it's Kenneth Sonoby phonetic
sp.!.
JOHN-2: Kenneth Sonoby, okay, got it. Okay
808-689-4457.
SCOTT: Yeah.
v JOHN2: Okay. I'll make sure that he is
contacted and --
l.r'
- SCOTT: And my, my wife wanted her mom to be
2 notified also.
3
4
5
6
7 it.
8
9 out right
10
11
12
13
14
15
16 there.
17
18 fine.
19
20
21 for him
22
23
24 now?
25the vehicle rightJOHN2: Sita?
" SCOTT: Yeah, Sita. A
JOHN-2: Sita, okay. And that's her mother?
SCOTT TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I can't hold
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: O1lie's coming
HOW .
SCOTT: Okay. Ollie's coming out right now.
JOHN-2: Okay. He's coming out right now?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN2: Okay. We'll send - we'll dispatch
away.
SCOTT: I think - I think it's already out
JOHN2: He's already out there? That's
SCOTT: The vehicle is, that is.
JOHN2: Oh, the vehicle's probably waiting
then.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: Okay. Okay. So he's out the door
SCOTT TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Did he go out
the door yet? QO O 9
I I 10
Q. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: N0.
SCOTT: Not yet. He's in the process of
going down there.
- JOHN-2: He's.in the process of getting out
there now. Okay. That's good, that's good. Well, I
-- okay. I will make sure that Kenneth is spoken to by
the agents here --
SCOTT: Okay.
JOHN-2: Do you have Sita's mother's name and
address?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: Or name and number, rather?
SCOTT: Yeah, it's - okay. He's using the
bathroom first, then he's going to go out.
JOHN-2: I could understand that.
SCOTT: Okay.
JOHN-2: Okay.
SCOTT: It's Cirilla phonetic sp.!.
JOHN-2: Cirilla.
SCOTT: Rivera phonetic sp.!.
JOHN-2: Cirilla Rivera.
SCOTT: Yeah. It's 808.
JOHN-2: 808.
SCOTT: 848.
JOHN-2: 848.
SCOTT: 6141.
__0 0 11
' JOHN-2: 6141."
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: Okay. »
' SCOTT: And if you could give, you know, like
my dad her number and her my dad's number so they,
like, they could talk to each other and stuff.
JOHN-2: Okay. So exchange - it's okay to
exchange numbers between the two.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: Okay. We don't do that unless you
give your permission.
SCOTT: Yeah. It's fine.
JOHN-2: Okay. Great. We'll do that.
SCOTT: Because otherwise they won't be able
to talk to each other ~-
_ JOHN-2: But we don't, you know, it's the
strange thing.- we don't give out information unless
people approve it. You got to understand that.
SCOTT: Oh, okay. It's a good thing I said
something then.
JOHN-2: Yeah, I'm glad you did. Because we
wouldn't have done it and then they would have been
saying well, how we're going to talk to each other.
How we going to find each other, you know.
. SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN2: So, good.
4__,lI, 12
STEVE TO OLLIE: Okay, Ollie. Take care.
JOHN2:
' STEVE TO
- SCOTT TO
SCOTT:
JOHN-2:
SCOTT:
JOHN2:
floor?
SCOTT:
JOHN-2:
front door?
SCOTT:
JOHN2:
vehicle's waiting
scorn: 'I hear Steve there.
OLLIE: See you soon.
OLLIE:" Take it easy, Ollie.
Yeah. He's going downstairs now.
He's on his way down?
Yeah.
Okay. So you guys are on the second
Yeah.
Okay. So he's going to head out the
Yeah.
Okay. So apparently the pickup
for him.
Yeah. They said the, the tank's out
there. So I guess that's it.
JOHN-2:
SCOTT:
JOHN-2:Okay. That's the pickup vehicle.
Yeah.
Tell them it's -- well, he knows.
It's a little bumpy, but --
SCOTT:
JOHN2:Yeah.
So, he'll enjoy the ride. Good.
Good. Well, I'm glad you're feeling well. And I will
take care of this
SCOTT:request for you.
I appreciate that and -
_.q,I Q 13
JOHN-2: And, and any time you want to talk
to me, please don't hesitate to ask.
John?
no problem. They, they sometimes re - mostly refer to
me as John2 because I'm the second John to come in SCOTT: Okay. What, what's your last name,
JOHN-2: John Dolan.
SCOTT: John Dolan?
JOHN-2: Yeah.
SCOTT: Okay.
JOHN-2: So, don't hesitate to ask. That's
SCOTT: Oh, okay.
JOHN-2: -- but that's, that's okay. So it
doesn't matter.
SCOTT: So how's Jim doing?
JOHN2: Jim?
SCOTT: Yeah. -
JOHN-2: Jim departed. He's doing well,
though, from what I hear.
Poor guy was, was asleep when they, when they - had to
wake him up to get him out of the chair to leave, you
know.SCOTT: Yeah? We wore him out, huh?
JOHN-2: You, you wore you wore him out.
SCOTT: Oh.
JOHN-2: So he was -- he's a nice guy,
.4-, 14
Othough . '
SCOTT: Yeah.
l . JOHN2: Real nice. Did you talk to him
much? . ~
I SCOTT: Yeah. I talked to Jim and Henry.
JOHN-2: Henry? Yeah.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: Both really good guys.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: Henry's still around. He said --
he's on the night shift.
SCOTT: oh, he's on the night shift, huh?
JOHN-2: Yeah, yeah. So he's, he's on the
night shift -- so anyway. But the - so do you know
if he's out the door yet?
SCOTT:' Hold on a second. I'll see.
JOHN-2: Okay.
SCOTT TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: IS he out the
door yet? Greg?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He's walking Out
-- he's walking out right now.
SCOTT: Okay. They say he's walking out
right now.
JOHN-2: He's walking out right now. Okay.
very good. And then, as you probably know, we have, we
have the cooler down there with the milk in it. So
..--.0 0 15
Greg, I believe, is ~-
SCOTT: After Ollie leaves --
" JOHN-2: Yeah. After Ollie leaves in the
vehicle, then Greg or whoever want_go down and pick up
the milk for the babies and stuff and we'll get --
SCOTTQ Okay. Are those magazines in there
too? "
JOHN2: No, no. We're going to make that on
a separate run.
SCOTT: Oh, okay.
JOHN-2: We're going to make that we had
-- you can't believe all those magazines are sold out
in this area.
SCOTT: Right.
JOHN-2: So we first started out by having
some faxed down to us by facsimile machine. And then
they, they scoured the area and they went up either to
Dallas, right to Dallas, and drove them down or
something.
SCOTT: Oh, okay.
JOHN2: But they had an incredible time
finding them. It was really ~ '
SCOTT: Yeah. Another thing, too, is, you
know, our mail?
_ JOHN-2: Yeah.
SCOTT: I don't know what's happened to our
O O 16
mail, but there's two people that subscribe to those.
JOHN2: Oh, is that right?
4 SCOTT: Yeah. So I don't know if they
have - " - '
, JOHN-2: They'll probably --
SCOTT: - will the mail thing or --
JOHN2: Generally speaking -- and, you know,
I don't know this without checking with a U.S. Post
Office, but generally speaking what they do is like a
vacation thing. They just hold it and when, when they
can get through they, they make the delivery. It just
kind of stacks up.
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: So, yeah. So --
SCOTT: Too bad they don't have a pony
express, you know, rain or shine or bullets or
whatever. .
JOHN-2: Neither, neither rain nor shine,
right. I mean, the mailman always comes through,
right?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: But you got one of the mailmen
there, right?
SCOTT: Huh?
JOHN-2: One of the mailmen is with you
there.
.-q-,O O 1
SCOTT: Yeah. 92
JOHN-2: Well, you can check with him.
SCOTT: But --
JOHN-2: See .' y
I SCOTT: -- he hasn't been able to get out to
check it. '
JOHN-2: You can ask him how you get the --
how you get the mail to you.
SCOTT: Oh, I see what you're saying. Just
ask him what the situation --
JOHN-2: What the, what the procedures are,
you know?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: But I will, I will have your -- I
will have Kenneth contacted for you, Scott.
SCOTT: Okay, thanks. And just tell him not
to worry, you know, -
JOHN-2: Yeah, I will. And like I said, any
time you want to, you know, kick something around,
Steve is more than willing to let you talk to us.
That's not a problem.
SCOTT: Yeah. The reason why, you know, I
let you know about the mail is because that way, you
know, if you had to, you could get that and that's
addressed to us and then you could just give it to us,
because I think that - they would have copies of it --
0' 0 18A JOHN2: Right. Right.
SCOTT: That way you wouldn't have to search
so far, you know.
I ' JOHN-2: Do you know if Judy's around?
SCOTT: Judy?
JOHN-2: Yeah.
SCOTT: Oh, hold on. I'll see.
JOHN2: Okay.
SCOTT TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Judy. IS Judy
available. Judy.
SCOTT: I think she's feeding her little
girl.
JOHN-2: Oh, she's feeding the little girl.
Okay.
SCOTT: As a matter fact, they all left me.
JOHN-2: Oh, they all left you, huh.
SCOTT; Yeah. There's nobody around now
except me. t
JOHN-2: You talk to John, right?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: Well, the reason -- you might, might
convey the message to Judy that we have a physician who
was willing to certainly talk to her and see if he can
help her out with her, with her wounds.
Z SCOTT: Oh, okay.
JOHN-2: So, you know, he may be able to give
..-V-,
her geindication of, of, of what's going on with the19
wound and so on.
- SCOTT: Yeah.
- JOHN-2: So,-we can, we can, you know, if you
can get her to the phone, we can do that. Is Steve
around or did he disappear too?
SCOTT: Oh, yeah. They all disappeared.
JOHN-2: They all disappeared, huh?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN-2: Okay. very good.
SCOTT: I think they should be coming up here
one of these days.
JOHN-2: Okay. Well, you can have Steve,
Steve give me a call.
SCOTT: Call you back? Oh, okay.
JOHN2: And there's -- like we said, we've
got pretty
because of
can remind
call us onmuch everything, you know, in hand and
the technical problems with the phone, you
Steve that we agreed to call -- he agreed to
the hour, because apparently when we call
him, the ringer isn't ringing.
SCOTT: Oh, I see. Okay. .
JOHN-2: So, that's why we had problems
getting to
something,him. More moisture in the line or
but it, it seems like more likely that
it's his ringer.
,9,0' 0 20
S SCOTT: Oh, okay.
JOHN-2: So just remind him that we've got
that hourly setup.
' SCOTT: Okay .'
92 JOHN2: And I look forward to seeing you one
of these times.
SCOTT: Yeah, okay.
JOHN-2: Okay, Scott.
SCOTT: Yeah, you take care.
JOHN-2: It's good talking -- you take care
too. _
SCOTT: Okay, byebye.
JOHN-2: Bye-bye.
* 11' it 7: *
STEVE: Hello, John.
JOHN2: Yeah, Steve, one second.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-2: Go ahead.
STEVE: Okay. Yeah, Greg just apparently
went out there to -- because the, the one Bradley
apparently drove off.
JOHN2: Right. '
STEVE: And he went out there and maybe the
other one started coming toward him and he was
wondering what was meant by that. So he came back and
wanted to check with you.
' l» 21
OJOHN-2: Okay.. Let me coordinate it. Don't
-- just maybe it's a breakdown in communication.
- STEVE: All right, no problem. Okay.
» JOHN-2: But I've got - hold on one second.
STEVE: All right. V
JOHN-2: we'll do it right now.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN~2: There is no problem. It's just I
think it's maybe a breakdown a little, tiny
breakdown in communication.
STEVE: Probably so. Maybe they thought he
wanted to come and join or something.
JOHN~2: That's -- that could have been it.
That could have been it. But - okay. Just, just tell
him to hold his position for one second.
STEVE:' Right.
JOHN-2: We'll get it squared away. _No
problem at all.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN2: Hey, it was really nice talking to
Scott.
STEVE: Good, good. .
JOHN-2: Yeah, yeah. And I just wanted to
say personally, you know, I want to thank you for
everything today. It was a, was a good day.
STEVE: well, I was hoping it was, was going
4-;0' 0 22
to be more and it's -- I'm really disappointed about
this whole phone thing --
- ' JOHN-2: Me too, me too. But I want you to
know at anytime, you know --
92 STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-2: -- day or night, 24 hours a day --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-2: -- 7 days, we're here, we're here.
STEVE: Right. Okay.
JOHN-2: So, and --
STEVE: And David, he was real adamant about
me getting that to you about people, you know, calling
and saying they're part of us and know us and --
JOHN-2: Yeah.
STEVE: He, he's concerned about that because
in the first place --
JOHN-2: Oh, yeah. -
STEVE: -- we're, we're - ourselves aren't
out to make money off of this kind of foolishness, you
know, and --
JOHN-2: Oh, yeah. And, and, you know,
there's going to be -- the, the night crew on and John-
1 is coming on --
STEVE: Okay.
_ JOHN-2: And John Cox will be here and so,
you know, please, we can, we can even do more, so
I
OJ
we'll -- ,
STEVE: All right.23
' JOHN-2: -- continue the momentum, so --
" STEVE: So when -- you said something about
the magazines are not with the cooler then right now.
JOHN-2: No, we didn't make a separate run
yet.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-2: But, but you can talk to --
STEVE: Let me know then.
JOHN-2: Sure, we'll talk to the night shift
and he can go out now and there's no problem at all.
There's just a little --
STEVE: Okay. And I, and I also mentioned
was there anyway to get a video on that Donahue program
where they had Curie phonetic sp.!, which is Sherry's
daughter, on there?
JOHN-2: Yeah. Let me see what I
I'm not --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-2: I'm not sure
it's too late, or, or whatever.
STEVE: Right, right.
JOHN-2: But, but let
anyway.
STEVE: Okay. Oh, byif they can
me find out
- see, thecan do.
get it,
about that
reason I'm
"'7-90 0" 2'
even requesting the magazines is because actually they
get them here at the place -
- ' JOHN-2: I understand, I understand. That's
what's got -- '
. STEVE: And of course when all the mail was
cut off, so -4
JOHN-2: Sure. That's what Scott said to --
STEVE: And, oh yeah, the other request, that
I think it was to John Cox, was that the possibility
of getting the rest of our newspapers from that series
that was done on David and this place. The last one we
got was by Robert Gonzalez. It was that Sunday morning
so we never got the rest of the series of that -- those
articles.
JOHN-2: well, I'll tell you what. I'll let
you run that by John tonight --
STEVE: Okay. -
JOHN-2: because then you can, can talk
about that.
STEVE: Okay. Okay, because it's probably
getting near the end of your day there.
JOHN-2: Oh, that's okay. I don't mind, I
don't mind that at all but, you know, if you guys want
to talk about it a little bit --
STEVE: Right, okay.
JOHN-2: - I don't want, you know -- now,
-._.0 0 25
did -- he1s on his way out, right?
STEVE: Is he ready?
JOHN2: Yeah.
" STEVE: Okay:
JOHN2: Send him out.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Tell Greg to
go for it. Okay? Okay. What'd you want to ask him?
Oh, I see. Yeah, he is now, he is now. Well, I know
that. I make sure of that every time. Okay. Okay.
Oh, no, not with me. Uhuh, not at all.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-2: Good. He's all, he's all on his
way?
STEVE: Yeah. Yeah.
JOHN-2: Okay. Great. Well, don't forget.
Let's do that hour on the hour to call in until we get
the new phone hooked up so there's no breakdown.
STEVE: Right. And I still don't have it
hooked up yet either.
JOHN-2: Okay.
STEVE: I was trying to get them on that.
JOHN-2: Sounds good. .
STEVE: Okay, John, if I don't talk to you
again --
JOHN2: It was a pleasure.
STEVE: -- I'll be talking to you in the
1%O I 26
morning. " A
JOHN-2: Talk to you in the morning, Steve.
STEVE: Okay. Take care.
' JOHN-2: Take care.
STEVE: Okay. Good night.
JOHN-2: Good night.
* * k it *
JOHN-2: Hello.
STEVE: Hello, John.
JOHN-2: Steve, one second.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-2: Go ahead.
STEVE: Okay. Here's Judy. She want -- do
you have a - did you ever were you able to talk to
a surgeon about her finger or a doctor
JOHN-2: Yeah, we had him, we had him up
here. Hold on,.let me see -- -
STEVE: And he's gone.
JOHN-2: I think he's gone right now. We had
him here for a while. Then he went to --
JOHN2 TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: D0 we know
where the surgeon is? -
STEVE: Hold it.
JOHN-2: Okay. We'll, we'll -- I'll tell you
what. we'll set up -- why don't you set up a time and
then we'll work out a time to, to make sure he's here,
l I I 27
like an appointment, and then the doctor can go
through, you know, what's - what he can --
s STEVE: when would be the soonest?
' JOHN-2: The soonest. Okay. I'll, I'll let
you work with that with John.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-2: well, hold on. Henry's here.
STEVE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He's not exited
yet. I
JOHN2: Okay. As I -- I understand that,
that Greg has not exited yet. '
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay, he's coming
out now.
JOHN2 TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Okay, he's
coming out now? Okay. Good.
JOHN2: Okay. We got that squared away for
the milk. '
STEVE: All right. Good, good.
JOHN-2: Okay. And I'll -- we'll try to work
on getting the physician in tonight to speak to Judy
as, as far as getting, getting the physician on the
phone.
STEVE: Great, great. I'll be calling in in
about an hour then.
JOHN-2: Okay. Hold on -- you want me --
-9-anI I
Q O 28
seven o'clock. And I'll-have the night shift I'll
tell the night shift now -- -
- ' STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-2: That -4 in fact, John Cox just
walked in.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN2: So, I can hand him over to you and
you can work on --
STEVE: Well, let me - right now what I'm
going to do is -- let me try to get this phone taken
care of right away, because I don't want any more
problems with this thing - '
JOHN2: Okay, and then you'll --
STEVE: In case you want to call me or
whatever.
JOHN-2: You'll call back call us back and
tell us the repair is complete and then this we'll
test the communications with John.
STEVE: Right. Exactly.
JOHN-2: Very good.
STEVE: Okay, thanks, John.
JOHN-2: Good night.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
JOHN-2: Thanks, Steve.
>9: * * * *
JOHN: Hello.
.._-,I,
I STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
~ STEVE
ears - '
JOHN:
you.
STEVE
JOHN:
Y STEVE
JOHN:I, 29
Hey, how are you?Hello,»John.
How's it going there?
Good, good. '
Is your voice getting lower or is my
No, how's that. I can bring it up for
No, you aren't tired, are you?
Heck no.
Hey, this --
I got six and half hours sleep last
night. That was great.
STEVE: whoa. well, you're doing well.
Yeah, this cold weather is wearing me out, tiring me
out.
JOHN:
today.I understand we had a little downtime
STEVE: Oh, a little -- oh, yeah. You mean
the telephone.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Yeah. I was waiting and waiting
he said he was going to call me back in a few minutes
and so I waited and waited and I said, well what is
going on.
JOHN: well, you know, we tried calling in
I .Qt U 3°
there last night after -- at several opportunities and
got no answer. And we -- ~
. ' STEVE: Really?
' JOHN: We did it at least five times.
STEVE: You're kidding.
JOHN: And we just felt that you were, you
know, out wandering around because you --
STEVE: Not at all.
JOHN: -- had said that you were going -- you
had in the past talked to people and gone different
places and we figured that's just what you were doing
was out bouncing around. '
STEVE: I was actually -- see, the phone is
right where - I've got it over by my -- where I'm
sleeping.
JOHN: Uhhuh .
STEVE; And this morning it seemed to work
because he called, I talked with him, and then after
that, like say about noon or so, all of a sudden
nothing. I haven't switched the phone yet, because the
guy that's going to do that for me is here right now,
but I wanted to call you first.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: John, they need to feed the chickens.
Can you clear that? There's a guy out back, he's going
to go throw some seed and all that out there and
whatever'else.
JOHN:
the milk?
' STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
points with you.
STEVE:
JOHN:
test to see if I
STEVE:I. 31
Okay. Let me ask you. Did you get
Yes. Tell them
Okay
All
We
Andthank you very much.
right.
appreciate that enormously.
let me, let me cover a couple of
All right.
Then we'll make arrangements and we'll
cancall you back.
All right.
JOHN: And, and if it doesn't work, you can
call me, me right back.
STEVE: That's - yeah.
JOHN: We have a doctor here who's in a
position to talk to Judy.
STEVE: Okay. All right.
JOHN: I want to let you know that.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: And also he's in a position if Scott
or anybody else had an injury and you want to describe
it -.
STEVE: Right.
.-.5-,John. '
'JOHN:
STEVE
' JOHN:
two tapes --
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:N 32
-- maybe we can --
Okay. We'll, we'll, we'll do that,
-- wecan help you there. We've got
what I'll do -- okay.
-- right now --
You've got what? Two tapes?
we have two tapes and, and an envelope
»up forward in a position to be brought to you. Now,
one of the tapes is of Kathy and Brian.
STEVE: Okay. -
JOHN: Okay? And the other is a tape of the
people who've been talking to you.
laugh.
serious
a nylon
lettersSTEVE: Oh, great.
JOHN: Okay?
STEVE: I really -- I'll enjoy that for sure.
JOHN:That ought to brighten your day, huh?
STEVE: Sure it will.
JOHN: Either that or give you a good, good
I don't know. But anyhow, you know, it's a
tape. The - and also in this - I guess it's
carrying case or something --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- there's a manila envelope with
from some of the youngsters who have come out
4?,
O I 33
earlier to their parents.
STEVE: well, that's good.
JOHN: Okay.
' STEVE: And what about the Time magazines?
p JOHN: Okay. We have those where I am.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: we have the original Time, the
original Newsweek. we do not have them up forward yet.
STEVE: Okay. Why don't we --
JOHN: But we'll, you know --
STEVE: You want to deliver them all at once
maybe? I can wait a little longer if that's -- that'd
be fine with me.
JOHN: Okay. Okay. Because it's going to
take us, you know, a little bit to get those up there.
' STEVE: That's, that's all right.
JOHN: But what I would like to do is --
STEVE: what about -- I was asking John 2
about that, again about --
JOHN: The newspaper article.
STEVE: Well, the -- there was a Donahue
program with Curie, that's Sherry's daughter, and she's
very curious to know, you know, what the ex-husband
pumped into her mind and what she had to say and is
there any way to get --
JOHN: we're aware of it --
..-_I ' O 3
I'm SUIC8,STEVE: Yeah. .
JOHN: -- and what we're going to have to do,
is get with the local station --
STEVE: Okay. And maybe we can --
JOHN: -- that puts it out and, and dub a
copy or something.
do it.STEVE: Okay. That'd be superb.
JOHN: But we're certainly going to try and
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: I think the most important thing we'd
like to do is have Judy talk to the doctor.
STEVE: Right. well, she wants to, by the
way, right --
this new phone -- he wants -- he's rightJOHN: And anybody else that wants to.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Do you want to --
STEVE: Do I need to call back first with
change the phone for me.
Could you
thing.JOHN: Do what you want to do.
STEVE: Yeah, okay. Why don't we do that.
clear it for him, feeding the, the --
JOHN: After we've handled this telephone
STEVE: It's getting cold and dark. That'shere, ready to
1
92
92
92
l} {Ila as
-'I guess it's almost dark now, isn't it?
JOHN: Okay. Hold -- can you hang on the
phone?
' STEVE: All right. Sure.
JOHN: Hold on.
STEVE: Okay.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Hello. Hi.
My hands are warm too and so are yours. It's going to
disappear. It'll get smaller and disappear. Let's
see. Oh, it's not much at all. Uh-uh. It's no big
deal, especially with a little time. I got to ask them
what the -- I'll be they do. I wonder what happened to
John now. Put me on hold or something here.
JOHN: -- 0. Hello.
STEVE: Yeah , John .
JOHN: Yeah. We're trying to talk to
somebody up forward -- "
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- to get some okay on the --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - on the chickens, but it doesn't
look good. They don't want anymore people wandering
around outside than is absolutely --
STEVE: well, yeah --
. JOHN: -- possible at nighttime and they just
want to know if you can feed them at first light in the
.-_-_"l II, as
morning: »
STEVE: Well, I well -
JOHN: We just don't want a lot of movement.
' STEVE: I think he's already down -- well,
you guys have allowed it, you know, in the last number
of nights.
JOHN: Hey, we had a guy sneak out there and
do it and nobody told us either, right?
STEVE: when was this?
JOHN: Remember when we sent the fellow to
the gymnasium to turn out the lights and you sent one
kind of slow on the uptake the first time and then --
STEVE: I think what happened -- remember
what happened? He went to the wrong location and there
was a - he went to -- there was a light in the back
and apparently there was a south side that they were
speaking about from what I understand. A
JOHN: I don't know - we're, we're just,
we're just getting -- the boss is just -- he doesn't
want a lot of moving around out there at nighttime and
if you can feed the chickens in the morning, feed the
chickens in the morning and we'll handle the tapes and
the magazine articles and all of that stuff this
evening.
_ STEVE: To tell you the truth, to tell you
the truth, I'm kind of surprised by it. It's not that
_-_r
D 0 37
it's a big deal. It isn't to me, it's just the, the
idea because, you know, I mean --
JOHN: The system.
' STEVE: Anyway.
, JOHN: Do you want to try that phone? And,
and try and work it out?
STEVE: Yeah. I'll get back to you then.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Was there
anything else? Did you say you were -- had --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Will there be
another pickup or not?
STEVE: - yeah, there'll be another pickup.
I'll be talking to them in a little while though.
STEVE: Okay. I'll call you, John.
' JOHN: Hey, do you, do you want to talk --
have her talk to the doctor now or you want to give me
a call back?
STEVE: Just let me change the phone. I'll
be calling you right back, probably within like ten
minutes even.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Okay. That way I can even get them.
JOHN: Fine.
v STEVE: Okay, bye.
JOHN: Thanks.
l ' I as
l * 9: * *k
JOHN: Hello.
STEVE: John, can you call me back? I want
to try this phone out.
JOHN: You bet.
STEVE: Okay. Thanks.
JOHN: Sound loud and clear right now.
STEVE: Good.
JOHN: Call you right back.
STEVE: Okay.
* * * k *
Telephone being dialed.!
Dial tone.!
Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing. Three rings.!
' JOHN TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: It's ringing.
STEVE: Hello. "
JOHN: Hey.
STEVE: Did it ring right - is it right
away?
JOHN: That was about the third ring when you
picked it up.
STEVE: No way.
JOHN: After the third ring.
_ STEVE: »we11, then it's got a touchy - I
don't -- some of these phones like have like two, three
4.
l, ¢l 39
wires to them. I don't like that and I think that's
the problem again.
JOHN: Did it ring at your end at all?
STEVE: Just one time. That's why I wanted
to know. I think what it is is there's a -- some kind
of a special plug on the back. I think what we're
going to have to do is tape it up just so it doesn't
ever move, because I think that could be a problem.
JOHN: Yeah. well, it did ring, though.
STEVE: Okay. Now, David -- he, he overheard
my conversation about the chickens and I guess it's to
get down to 23 degrees.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: And he's concerned about them because
they don't -- from what I understand, they don't have
any shelter and they wanted to throw some plas -- throw
some seed in there and some plastic over a part of it
or something. They don't know what to do for them.
JOHN: Well, that's something I'll have to
discuss -~ l
STEVE: well, do that because, you know, he
doesn't want --
JOHN: -- with command. '
STEVE: You know, so far they've been doing
well, but he's concerned about them.
JOHN: Yeah. well, we'll work on that.
I <|| 40
STEVE: Okay. '
JOHN: We sure will. And I know it's, it's
going to be cold and there's going to be a breeze.
_ STEVE: Oh, you bet it is. And Scott's here
and Judy's soaking her finger, but she's as soon as
Scott's off she'll be coming to the phone.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Do you have the doctor or -
JOHN: You bet I do. And it's Dr. John
Hagmann, HAG-M~A-N-N.
STEVE: Okay. Dr. John Hagmann.
JOHN: Okay?
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: And when, when he's done talking to
Scott --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Scott can describe his wound and
everything to him. l
STEVE: Right, right.
JOHN: Then you're going to put Judy on with
him?
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And then you and I'll get back on.
STEVE: Sounds good.
JOHN-2: Okay?
STEVE: Talk to you then, John.
O U
JOHN: All right. Thank you.
STEVE: Okay. Sure.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
' DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Hi, Scott?
l STEVE: Hello, this is Steve. This here's
Scott.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: All right.
SCOTT: Hello, is this John?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Yeah, hi.
SCOTT: Who?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: I'm John Hagmann. I'm a
doctor.
SCOTT: Oh, okay. Yes, what can I help you
with? Or what can you help me with?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Right. Well, why don't
you tell -- I don't know -- I understand that you were
injured, but could you tell me a little bit about your
injury. I don't know what, what's happened.
SCOTT: Okay. A bullet went through my hand,
my left hand, between the thumb and the first index
finger and it came out on my wrist, the back of my
wrist. And it went in my leg, the same bullet I would
imagine, went in my leg --
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Which leg? The right or
the left?
SCOTT: My right leg._ And it stopped right
_-_-,I I 42
at the skin - below the skin surface on my right side.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. Now, step back and
tell me. where did it enter your right leg?
' SCOTT: Right in the inner thigh.
I DR. JOHN HAGMANN: About the middle of the
thigh?
SCOTT: No. Right in the - just missed my,
you know.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. So, pretty high up
on your thigh.
SCOTT: Yeah, pretty high up on my thigh.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: And then it - you say you
feel the bullet on the other side?
SCOTT: Yeah. I can feel it. I can even
tell which direction the bullet's facing.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. where is the bullet
on the other side?
SCOTT: About maybe six, six inches below my
hip.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. So it's still
pretty high on your thigh on that side?
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Is it -- if you look at
your thigh from front to back, is it up toward the
front of your thigh?
SCOTT: Right in the middle.
0' 0 43
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Middle, okay.
SCOTT: Toward, toward the front a little
bit. It's - I guess it missed the bone, so it's in
the front --
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: That's what I --
SCOTT: -- around the front of the bone.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: All right. Okay. NOW,
have you been walking around on that?
SCOTT: Yeah. -
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay.
SCOTT: It doesn't cause me any pain
whatsoever.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: To walk - it doesn't
cause any pain to walk on it?
SCOTT: No.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: All right. what do the --
one - I just want to clarify on your hand wound. You
said that it - a bullet went in between your thumb and
index finger?
SCOTT: Yes.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: On the palm side or the
back side of your hand?
SCOTT: The back side.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: All right. And then it
came out of your wrist on the palm side of the wrist?
SCOTT: It came out on the back -- on the
I l|! 44
back edge of my wrist. T
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. So where your thumb
sort of connects to your wrist?
SCOTT: No. Where -- you know my little
finger?
A DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Umhum.
SCOTT: Okay. Follow that down to my wrist
bone and it came out just below the wrist joint.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. Are you using --
SCOTT: So, it's kind of just like it went
around in a cir - went around in an arc and then went
just under the skin and it came out on the - by the
bone.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. That's your left
hand and then it went into your right leg?
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. Are you using that
left hand? I
SCOTT: I can move my fingers. I can move my
arm, but every - like if I twist my arm a certain way,
then I can - it hurts.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay.
SCOTT: But I can move my fingers and
everything
, DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Can you pick something up
with that hand? *
"3" |! 45
SCOTT: No. Only like light stuff, like
maybe a piece of paper or something.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: All right. Do the, do the
wounds that you have there - I would be worried if
they were sort of covered with a film. If they were,
you know, whitish or had stuff on top.
SCOTT: Oh, no. They're very clean. In
fact, they're healing pretty good.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: What are you doing for
them?
SCOTT: Well, I change it every day, put
peroxide and put Betadine around the outside of it, you
know?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Um-hum.
SCOTT: And I'm taking Doxycycline -- that's
what it says, I don't know. It says for infection.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. How much of that
are you taking? l
SCOTT: It says twice a day.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay.
SCOTT TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Careful,
you're making the phone --
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: And are you righthanded
or left-handed.
SCOTT: I'm right-handed.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. So it's you're
_,._. 0 46
other hand that you - "
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: All right. And you're
able to, you're able to, to use the wrist, move the
wrist? I
' SCOTT: Only, only like right -- like if 1
hold my hand like -- if I bend my elbow and my hand's
like, like I'm going to shake your hand?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN:' Um-hum.
SCOTT: I can move it right to left, but I
can't move it the other way.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay.
SCOTT: Up and down.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: All right. I'd be worried
that - there are a whole bunch of bones in your
wrist --
SCOTT: Yeah. '
DR. JOHN HAGMANN:' -- that make your wrist,
and with the path of that bullet through there, you're
almost certain to have a break in there.
SCOTT: Yeah, probably. .
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: And that's, that's what I
was worried about. The other thing we worry about is,
of course, anytime a bullet wound kills a lot of tissue
and the risk is of it getting infected.
SCOTT: Oh, really.
49.I I 47
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Right - using -- can you
still hear me?
SCOTT: Hello?
' DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Yeah. Can you still hear
me. 4
SCOTT: Yeah. They keep stepping around the
cord and everything and --
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay.
SCOTT: - it's messing --
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: The, the risk of infection
is just because there's dead tissue in there the
bacteria can, can eat. Now, taking the antibiotic like
Doxycycline will slow that down, but there's still dead
tissue in there and just like any dead tissue, it
ultimately rots. It --
Connection broken.!
Telephone being dialed.! -
Telephone ringing -- eight rings.!
DR. JOHN HAGMANN TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
Let's end with the bad news. If they try to call in --
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Hi, Scott?
STEVE: Is this Dr. Hagmann?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Yes, it is.
STEVE: We're having phone -- terrible phone
problems here. Here's Scott again.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: All right. Thanks, Steve.
Q
I SCOTT: Hello.-
DR. JOHN HAGMANN:
SCOTT: Sorry --
' DR. JOHN HAGMANN
problem.0 48
Hi, Scott.
Yeah, John Hagmann. No
SCOTT: -- a click and you weren't there.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN Right. We tried to call
you back and it didn't seem to work so I guess you'll
have to try to call us back
SCOTT: Okay.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. What I was -- I was
just thinking about and there's another medical person
here. We were just trying
you told us so far.
SCOTT: Right.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN
like the wound on your leg
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN
and that bullet missed the
SCOTT: Probably
DR. JOHN HAGMANNto piece together everything
The good news is it looks
is not serious. ~
Because you got real lucky
major bone there.
missed a major artery too.
Exactly. And especially
you say it went in very high and right in the front
very high is the --
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: -- major artery and nerve.
I7O 0 '9
But with your lack of pain and your ability to move and
walk on it, the wound is just through the soft tissue.
SCOTT: Uhhuh.
' DR. JOHN HAGMANN: And since there's only the
entrance on the inside --
' SCOTT: Right.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: - you're doing pretty
well on that one.
SCOTT: Uh-huh. "
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: I'm a lot more concerned
about your wrist. As we were just talking about.
There is --
SCOTT: Yeah. Because there's a lot less
room for the bullet to go through, you know? I mean,
there's --
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Right. All --
SCOTT: - hand's a lot thinner. -
DR. JOHN HAGMANNQ Yeah. The only thing in
there are bones, so it's almost certain that you've
broken at least one, maybe a couple of bones in there.
The, the concern I have is that if those bones heal,
they're real close together. If they heal when they're
broken, they fuse together, so the wrist never works
after that. It's, it's a single bone rather than eight
littlevbones.
SCOTT: Umhum.
-P!0 0 5°
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: what needs to be done is
that - it's absolutely imperative at this point, it's
been two weeks, that that gets x-rayed.
' SCOTT: Yeah.
, DR. JOHN HAGMANN: And then that there's
some, what we call medically, debridement. That where
where you take away the dead - remember I told you
the, the bullet kills tissue and that's the tissue that
eventually rots when the bacteria get into it.
SCOTT: Right.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: That tissue has to be
cleaned away and that's a process called debridement,
where they obviously numb it up and it's done as a --
sort of a minor surgery procedure, but they have to
clean away all the, the tissue that the bullet has
destroyed to keep it from getting infected as time goes
on. .
SCOTT: Yeah. Like it's, it's not red at all
or anything. It isn't even purple or nothing.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. That's just --
probably because you've been taking the antibiotics and
suppressing the infection. But as long as the tissue
is there, as long as the food is there, eventually a
bacteria that's resistant to the Doxycycline that
you're taking will find it's way in there.
SCOTT: Right. I see.
".3Q! 51
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: See, the key is that you
have to get rid of the food that the bacteria are on
and that's what the debridement is. It, it, it will
prevent the infection that's eventually going to start.
' SCOTT: Right.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Sounds like you've done
pretty well so far.
SCOTT: Amazing I would imagine.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN£ Right. But - actually it
is. At two weeks, though, now those bones are starting
to, to grow a sponge around them of bony tissue and
that sponge will just fuse together and that wrist will
be permanently fused. That, that's the big concern.
So what we, we really need -- ultimately we need to get
an x-ray of that. Then it needs to be -- after the x-
ray, that will tell us which bones are broken.
No matter what, no matter which ones are
broken, the tissue has to be debrided and, and taken
off. You know, the - just the dead stuff that's
there. And then if the bones are broken, they can~
either be casted or even sometimes just wired together.
By wiring them together, then they heal as, as separate
bones and that keeps the wrist working.
SCOTT: Oh, I see.
- DR. JOHN HAGMANN: See, the whole goal is to
make sure you have function on that hand.
_.-QI
0 0 52
SCOTT: Right..
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Otherwise you end up with
a stiff wrist and you're, you're basically like you
have an artificial hand. It doesn't work anymore.
y SCOTT: Yeah. It felt like I had + when I,
when I first got shot, it felt like I had somebody
else's hand strapped to my wrist.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: This is --
SCOTT: -- like plastic-coated.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Well, that's see, the
best outcome would be to - so they can do that. Now,
if we don't do that, the worry I would have is that,
first of all, that it's going to fuse and you won't
have function. But even more serious, that eventually
a bacteria's going to get resistant to the Doxycycline
you're taking and then the infection will start pretty
rapidly because.this tissue's had a long time to get in
there and get all soft and be able to --
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: be used by the, by the
bacteria.
SCOTT: Another thing, too, is I don't have
too many of those pills left.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Well, I say, as soon as
you, as soon as you run out, the infection's going to
start.
¢... lb I 53
SCOTT: Yeah. -
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: How many of them - how
many of the Doxycycline do you have left?
' SCOTT: oh, I think about six.
, DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Six. Okay. well, say
there's --
SCOTT: About three more days left.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Right. You've been
suppressing it so far, but either you're going to run
out or even, even if you continued on that, bacteria's
going to find until we actually get the dead tissue out
of there, the food for it. S0 that's what needs to be
done, to, to really take care of that. Let us I was
just trying to think. There's not much that I can tell
you to do for yourself that you haven't already done,
see.
SCOTT: Yeah, it's, it's been pretty good
actually so far. I mean, it's out -- it's really
amazing to tell you the truth, you know?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Well, I'm --
SCOTT: I mean I never been shot before, but
I mean, even the, even that fact, I mean -- I know that
it could have been a lot worse.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Well, we -- the medical
guys, we've been standing by ready to take care of you
guys if you ever -- you know, if you need anything and
0 0 5
if your -- say, if you're ready or whenever you are
ready, I'll be glad to go with you to the hospital and
get that taken care of.
" SCOTT: Yeah.
' DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Ultimately, it's going to
need to get taken care of or you're going to lose -- I
mean, your minimum, you're going to lose function more.
If you get infected, you could lose the whole hand, if
it gets infected.
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: But that's, say, myself
and the other medical guys, we're just standing hy and
ready to take care of you as soon as you're --
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: But you know the sooner we
do that, the better.
SCOTT; Right. _
DR. JOHN HAGMANNK If the infection starts,
then we have to take off more and more tissue. l
SCOTT: Right. Excuse me. Hold on a second.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Sure.
SCOTT TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: What Judy --
I'm waiting for her to come over here so she can --
SCOTT: Yeah. They're going to go check on
Judy.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay, Scott. What do you
-"P-IQ 0 55
want me to do right now for you?
SCOTT: Gee. Maybe send me a different type
of antibiotic?
' DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Well, that's, that's --
see, that's not the, not the secret. That's --
' SCOTT: I, I don't know what else you can do
for me unless you want to come in here. I mean, you
know.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Well - even if I did that
I couldn't --
SCOTT: we're not going to shoot you or
anything. You know what I mean?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: I still couldn't. I need
a hospital to do those things.
SCOTT: Right.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: I need an x-ray machine.
I need a, you know, the ability to do some minor
surgery to take off that tissue.
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: So that doesn't --
wouldn't help us unfortunately. And even changing
antibiotics, again, we're just selecting out a
particular vicious bacteria.
SCOTT: Right.
_ DR. JOHN HAGMANN: I'm sure you've heard
about, you know, say people in the hospital who take an
.-¢__,O I 56
antibiotic and eventually they find that the
antibiotics don't work anymore.
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Because you - because as
long as the bacteria has something to grow on, even one
or two of them will be resistant and those will grow
until they form an infection.
SCOTT: Right.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: So -- you just say -- I'll
be glad to answer your questions and I'll, say, I'll
try to tell you, you know, the good and the bad.
SCOTT: Oh, okay. I got one, one question.
I was curious about okay. This bullet is resting on
the inside of my skin.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Um-hum.
SCOTT: If it stayed there, would it
eventually come-out by itself?
DR. JOHN HAGMANNt what will happen to that
is that it would stay there - say, eventually your
wound there would heal from what it sounds like, it
would just heal, it'll scar over.
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: The bullet would stay
under the skin and over time, and now I'm talking
about,you know, years, would get closer and closer to
the skin. Ultimately the skin would be real thin and
.-__$!0 0 5'
sort of bluish right over the top of the bullet and
then you'd nick the - it would be so thin that you'd
nick it, just scratching or something, and the bullet
would pop out.
, SCOTT: Yeah. Because it's like - there's a
lump on my leg where it's actually pushing out.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Umhum. Well, it would
take a while to gradually work its way right under the
skin and the skin gets pale and it just breaks the
skin's surface.
SCOTT: Oh, I see. Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: And that's it can be
removed. Obviously we could go in and --
SCOTT: Oh, yeah. Right. Just a small
incision would take it out.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Right. But if it -- well,
if you're asking what would happen if that didn't
happen - I 4
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: - it just heals and scars
and eventually the - bullet works its way to the
surface and comes out.
SCOTT: Uhhuh. Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: That leg wound I'm not too
concerned about. You seem to have gotten real lucky
and done real well with that. You've done so - pretty
0' 0
well so far with the wrist wound, but I'm, I'm
much more worried about that one.
SCOTT: Yeah. Yeah, that's the only
causes me pain like if I move it a certain way
hurt, but 90 percent of the time I'm fine, you
It doesn't bother me.58
much,
one that
it'll
know.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Those are the, the - say
the broken bones that are in there that hurt when you
try to move them.
SCOTT: Yeah, because that thing - it looks
like it went in my hand and it went around the
bone and came out through the skin.wrist
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: It probably went through
one of those bones.
SCOTT: Huh?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: I bet you it went
one of those bones.
SCOTT: Probably something like that
Because yeah, it hurts a little bit every once
while when I move it.through
in a
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. Well, we'll I
say, we're -- got myself and the whole team always
standing by. You know, whenever there's any questions
or problems, we --
. SCOTT: Okay.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: we say, we were there when
1
' 59
Kathy came out earlier today --
problems;
US, SO --SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: -- and she didn't have any
She didn't really want, didn't need to see
SCOTT: Yeah.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: -- we didn't do much for
her, but we were standing right there when she came
out, if she had anything to do. So we're always there.
SCOTT: Uhhuh. Okay. Hey, thanks a lot.
You want to talk to Judy now?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Yeah, if I could.
SCOTT: Okay. Hold on.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Thanks, Scott.
SCOTT TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Judy - yeah.
Where'd she go? She was right here.
SCOTT: She was standing right here and then
she disappeared again.
with you?DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay. I'll just hold on.
SCOTT: Okay. I
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: It's easier that way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Judy. IS Judy
JUDY: Hello.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Hi, Judy?
JUDY: Hi.
4...oi 0 so
. DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Hi. This is John Hagmann.
I'm one of the doctors that have been standing by here.
JUDY: With the BATF? Or FBI or
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: No, I'm just a doctor
they asked to come in and, and help out in case there
were any medical problems.
JUDY: Oh, okay.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Now, I did get -- they
showed me when we were getting ready for this they
showed me a video tape that you made earlier.
JUDY: Okay. ' .
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Of your, your finger
there.
JUDY: Right.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: It looks, looks pretty
bad.
JUDY:' Yeah. '
DR. JOHN HAGMANN:. Now, I was -- from what I
could see there, I have a pretty good idea of what you
had as opposed to Scott. I didn't get to see that.
JUDY: You had what?
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: I have a pretty good idea
of what happened - or what, what wounds you have --
JUDY: Uh-huh.
. DR. JOHN HAGMANN: -- on your finger there,
but I have some questions that, that - that video --
0' 0 61
V JUDY: what happened is I got hit with a
bullet.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: No, well, say as far as
what the wounds were. But they tell me that video tape
is several days old.
JUDY: Right.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: And I'd be worried -- it
was really swollen that -- on that video tape, and it's
been a couple of days. -
JUDY: Right, right.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: I'd be really concetned if
the swelling con -- is continuing to get more.
JUDY: I wouldn't say it's more. I'm not
really sure if it's any less.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Okay.
JUDY TO STEVE: Steve, since the video do you
think the swelling is more or less? More or less?
STEVE TO JUDY: I can't - I never -- as
much, as much --
JUDY: It's about the same or --
JUDY TO STEVE: -- you think more even?
STEVE TO JUDY: Yes.
JUDY: Yeah, it's, it's real pus-y now. And
I don't really see that it's healing like --
_ DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Now, you say -- wait a
minute, you said there's pus coming out of the wound?
-_-;iQ - I 62
JUDY: Yeah. '
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: Like a, a film on top of
it or actually dripping out of it.
_ JUDY: It's not dripping out. It's like
coated, kind of whitish - -
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: You mean like mold growing
on it?
JUDY: Not mold. I don't - yeah, this don't
look good.
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: That's - yeah, that's
what - _
JUDY: -- so infected and, and the skin I
would say is kind of deteriorating -
DR. JOHN HAGMANN: That's what I was worried
about with Scott, that there would be an infection
starting in there.
JUDY:' I don't know about Scott well, he's
not here right --
End of Tape #118!