Document text
92.~¢5 Q
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #92
March 8, 193%-
1:12 p.m. - 3:36 p.m.
~...so-I _
Tape 92! K .
Phone ringing!
JOHN DOLAN: Hello?
RACHEL: Hello?
JOHN DOLAN: Hi, this is John. Who's this?
RACHEL: Rachel.
JOHN DOLAN: Hi, Rachel.
RACHEL: Hi.
JOHN DOLAN: Is David there?
RACHEL: Yeah, he's here --
JOHN DOLAN: I need to speak --
RACHEL: -- always here.
JOHN DOLAN: - I need to speak to him,
please.
RACHEL: Just a minute. He said no, he's in
town buying milk. C
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I have somebody he needs
to speak to.
RACHEL: Who*s that?
JOHN DOLAN: The Sheriff.
RACHEL: The Sheriff?
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
RACHEL: Just a minute.
MR. KORESH: Hello?
JOHN DOLAN: David?
MR. KORESH: Yes.
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JOHN DOLAN: This is John. How are you
today?
MR. KORESH: Harwell? No, that's Jack. This
is --
JOHN DOLAN: No, this is John Dolan. Hold on
a second. I have somebody here who wants to speak to
you.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. HARWELL: Hi, David.
MR. KORESH: Hello. Who's this?
MR. HARWELL: This is Jack Harwell.
MR. KORESH: Mr. Harwell, how you doing?
MR. HARWELL: Oh, doing fine, David. I'm a
little tired and --
MR. KORESH: How's that whirlybird of yours
doing?
MR. HARWELL: Beg your pardon?
MR. KORESH: How's the whirlybird doing?
MR. HARWELL: 'Oh, I haven't been in it. I'm
scared to ride in that thing, David.
M. KORESH: Laughter!
MR. HARWELL: Laughter! I don't ride it.
MR. KORESH: Well, you came several times to
visit over the summer. I wish you guys would stop.
MR. HARWELL: Yeah, in all honesty we, we
flew over and took some aerials a couple times, David.
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4
MR. KORESH: I know.
MR. HARWELL: We, we meant no harm by it.
You know, over the years we've always respected you
alls, you al1's facilities out there.
MR. KORESH: Well, we've always loved you all
tOO.
MR. HARWELL: And I still respect them. I
would never come out and try to trespass onto the
property. We've --
MR. KORESH: Well, I told you all guys you
ought to come out fishing. I was hoping --
MR. HARWELL: Sure.
MR. KORESH: -- for a better relationship
with you all anyway.
MR. HARWELL: Sure. Well, that's -- we've
always had a good relationship, David. We've never --
you folks have always been nice folks to us and we, we
appreciate it.
MR. KORESH: Well, we've tried. We, we've
got a little bit different nature now seems like.
MR. HARWELL: Yeah, well, that's what I want
to talk. I requested that I have an opportunity to
talk to you, David.
M. KORESH: Okay. _
MR. HARWELL: I've been sitting out here on
the sideline, of course. As you know, I'm just the
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Sheriff here. I accept my responsibility and authority
but sometimes we don't do everything we'd like to do
and things don't fall the way we'd like to.
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
MR. HARWELL: But I would like to sit down
and visit with you. I would like to talk to you. But
my main concern right now is that I have that
opportunity in the future. I, I've been sitting on the
sideline and I just demanded that I have an opportunity
to talk to you all.
MR. KORESH= Well, I appreciate it. I, I've
always liked you guys down there. I know there's been
a lot of misunderstanding, but what was -- Steve, what
was the guy's name again? Larry --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Abner.
MR. KORESH: Larry -- how's Mr. Abner doing?
MR. HARWELL: Larry's doing good. He's been
asking about you all and, and he's always --
MR. KORESH: Yeah indiscernible!
MR. HARWELL: -- spoken so highly. He
enjoyed his visit out there with you --
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. HARWELL: -- back at the time that he was
out there. He, he came out and talked to me. He said
you all treated him like he was -- _
MR. HARWELL: Oh, yeah, well, I told him that
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he could come out and go fishing. And see, we don't
have nothing to hide, you know? We've never tried to
break the law, we've always tried to do right. But,
you know, I was explaining to him about my religious
position, you know, when I was traveling around -*
MR. HARWELL: Sure.
MR. KORESH: different parts of the
country?
MR. HARWELL: Sure.
MR. KORESH: And I told them when, when they
came on, I said, look, you know, a lot of people
misunderstand us, they don't know where we're coming
from.
MR. HARWELL: Yes.
MR. KORESH: And so we sat down and talked
out there in the front, you know, when they were H
talking to the kids. We talked there about a good two
or three hours and I explained to them the position and
all that. ~~
MR. HARWELL: Sure, they enjoyed the trip.
They enjoyed the visit.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. HARWELL: Let me, let me say up front,
David, and you know me. You've been around here for a
long time and you know our local community and we're
just common folks around here --
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MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
MR. HARWELL: - going along about our
business. And -- but let me assure you that I have no
skills in negotiation plan in talking to you, I wanted
to talk to you as a friend f
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. HARWELL: -e and you've been our friend.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. HARWELL: And what -- I'm, I'm so --
well, I'm nervous now because of, of all this week all
the things that have happened. So if I --
MR. KORESH: Oh, it's been terrible.
MR. HARWELL: -- sound a little nervous and
stressed it because I'm concerned about you folks out
there. You all have been our friends and, and I'm
concerned about the other people involved. And what I,
what I want so desperately to do is find some way to
resolve this thing so that we can handle it on a local
level as much as possible and try to show you folks
the, the considerations that we always have shown
you --
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
MR. HARWELL: -- and, and be, be reasonable
and understanding with what you all are doing. You
know I've always respected your -- like I say, your
group out there and I just want to see this thing come
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to some kind of an end without someone else getting
hurt, David. I, I don't know how to do it and I must
confess to you right up front, I don't have any, any
way of telling you how to do it. So I'm depending on
You *' T
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: -- to probably work something
out with us.
MR . KORESH: Uhhuh .
MR. HARWELL: I want your input on this
because I'm going to live here from now on --
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: -- and your, your folks are
going to be here after all these folks are gone. We're
going to be working together, hopefully. And that's
what I want to do, I want to get this thing resolved so
that we can do this.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, well, Mr. Harwell, see,
the, the - -
MR. HARWELL: Just call me Jack. You've
known me as Jack over the years.
MR. KORESH: Well, I mean, okay. Well, with,
with all due respect.
MR. HARWELL: Certainly.
MR. KORESH: See, our problem is is that, you
know, we're accused of all these violations and stuff
92....¢9
like that. And now it's true, I do have firearms and
it's true, you know, we do gun shows and stuff like
that. But see, the thing of it was is that when we --
what's it been about, what, two years ago now, Steve?
Indiscernible voice in background.! '
MR. KORESH: Yeah. Well, see, when, when we
met Henry McMann down in - what, what was the name of
that town, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Jewitt.
MR. KORESH: Jewitt. You know, and I started
going to some of these gun shows. See, what happened
was is that all of a sudden guns started going up in
price -- I
MR. HARWELL: Sure.
MR. KORESH: go really high in price and
there was, like, guns you could purchase for, like, say
350 bucks and in a matter of six months they went to
like $800 or so.
MR. HARWELL: "Yes.
MR. KORESH: So it started off as a, as a
profit marginal thing. Because, you know, again -- the
constitution, we all have the right to defend
ourselves, and besides, you remember that thing in '88?
MR. HARWELL= Yes, I sure do. '
MR. KORESH: You know? There was a lot of
misunderstanding to that. But we came out here then we
a...-09 I
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only brought firearms out and we bought our stuff from
Mr. Cogdell phonetic! because we didn't have anything
then.
MR. HARWELL: Well, I was on --
MR. KORESH: And that was because -- .
MR. HARWELL: -- your all's side then too,
David. I, I --
MR. KORESH: Yeah, well --
MR. HARWELL: -- you know, we, we supported
you all in that --
MR. KORESH: Yeah. Well, Mr. --
MR. HARWELL= -- as much as possible.
MR. KORESH: If it wasn't for Sheriff
Thorn -- Lieutenant Thorn -- no, it's not Thorn,
Dickerson, you know, when he told us to come to get the
pictures, me and Dave was leaving out of his office?
MR. HARWELL: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: He told us, he said, "Now, you
boys be careful, there's some, there's some rough
customers out there."
MR. HARWELL: Yeah, yeah. Laughter!
MR. KORESH: So that's one reason why we, we
had those firearms, just for the diversion. And,
and --
MR. HARWELL: Well --
MR. KORESH: -- and when -- you know, when
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George was standing out there in the front, the -- you
know, all the guys were firing I admit, but they were
all shooting into the ground. That's why he wasn't
hurt.
MR. HARWELL: Yes. f
MR. KORESH: Anyway -- but anyway, that's,
that's way back then.
MR. HARWELL: We understood that and we were
supportive of you. If you recall, I visited with you
all briefly down there through all this trial and --
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
MR. HARWELL: -- all the things that went on
and, and we knew the other -- we knew George and so we,
we were supportive of you folks --
MR. KORESH: He just had a indiscernible!
problem.
MR. HARWELL: -- and we're still supportive
of you, David. We, we just regret that it's reached a
time where --
MR. KORESH: It's come to this point.
MR. HARWELL: Yeah, and I don't know how --
I'm not proficient in, in, in telling you my thoughts.
All I can do is talk straight at you from my heart --
MR. KORESH: Yeah, well, we told them --
MR. HARWELL: -- that, that I care for you
out there and I want -- that's why I insisted on coming
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in here and talking to you because I don't want
anything to happen. !You've been our folks out there.
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: You all are part of our
community and we've always respected that.
MR. KORESH: I appreciate that.
MR. HARWELL: And I continue to respect it.
So I, I insisted that I have an opportunity to talk to
you.
MR. KORESH: Well, I did everything I could.
See, we knew, we knew that there was an agent across
the street. We knew that for the past two months. And
Richard -- Robert Garcia -- Gonzalez, you know, he was
coming over and all that and I told him he could shoot,
you know, on the back of the property there.
MR. HARWELL: Sure. You've been congenial in
that kind of thing out there, yeah.
MR. KORESH: Well, we were - well, see, we
don't have nothing to hide but the thing - everything
we do it comes, it comes out of the book, right?
MR. HARWELL: Yes.
MR. KORESH: And our doctrine is a little
different than a lot of people, but --
MR. HARWELL: Sure, I respect your doctrine.
I know you respect mine.
' MR. KORESH: Right.
92...¢413
M. HARWELL: And I, I would not -- I'm not
skilled at that, but I'm - I've been an old Christian
for as long as I can remember. I'm 65 years old now,
I'm no kid --
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
MR. HARWELL= - and, and that's why I'm
concerned about you folks out there. We have a -- you
know, I love life and I, I know --
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
MR. HARWELL: - that you all do.
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
MR. HARWELL: And that's what I want
see all of you come out safely so that you can
with --
MR. KORESH: Well, big brother's got
penned in a corner now because they made a lot
promises --
MR. HARWELL: Well --to do is
go on
US
<51:
MR. KORESH:' -- to me, they made a lot of
promises to me and we started sending the kids out and
they've not kept any of their promises. And then they,
and then they twisted my words around and, and they've
made me out on the TV to be a liar and stuff and that's
not the way things are really happening here.
MR. HARWELL: Well, let me tell you my
position here, David. I'm the Sheriff and I do have
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some authority here and if you and I talk and I'll tell
you it's going to be a certain way that's the way it's
going to be. I'm not going to tell you that something
will --
go ahead.KORESH:
HARWELL:
KORESH:
HARWELL
KORESH:
HARWELL
KORESH:
MR. HARWELL
front with you, David
else but just talk toHello?
Yes?
Hello?
Yes?
Okay.
Are you there?
Yeah. The phone just okay,
I want to be honest and up
I don't know how to do anything
people and be honest with them,
don't tell them you're going to do something if you're
not going to do it --
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: -- don't, don't scheme behind
people's back, and if I tell you I'm going to do
something I'll stand on it. Now, if there's something
I can do that you can suggest to me that we could get
this thing resolved by doing I'll, I'll sure make my
best effort. But that's what I want to do is whatever
I can do to help you feel safe in coming out out there,
you and your people, not just you but all of you people
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out there. You all are our folks and I -- that's
my --
MR. KORESH: Well, you know --
MR. HARWELL: -- main concern as Sheriff now.
I want this thing to, to end with you alls safety as
well as the safety of the other folks out here.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, you, well, you know
we were ready to come out the other day?
MR. HARWELL: I heard that and I heard --
and, and David, you're not the kind of man that I know
would give his word and not keep his word unless maybe
you had some reasoning in your mind. I don't know all
the details on that. But I've known you as a man of
your word or I would have never let any of my people go
out there to visit with you in the past. I've always
trusted you. When David said it's that way, it's that
way.
MR. KORESH: Well --
_ MR. HARWELL: "And I want you to feel that way
with me. I, I don't think you've ever caught me
telling you something or telling anyone something that
I, I didn't speak with my word.
MR. KORESH: Well, I've always -- like I,
like I told the officers that came out, I said, you
know, in '88, you know, you all did us a bad deal. I
said, but of course we're all human, we all make
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mistakes, not everybody knew every detail of that and I
says, you know, I don't hold that against anybody.
MR. HARWELL: I've made many --
MR. KORESH: And we --
MR. HARWELL: - mistakes, David, yes. I
MR. KORESH: -- well, that's just a human,
human thing.
MR. HARWELL: Sure.
MR. KORESH: But the thing of it is is that
like I told them I said, you know, when we're dealing
with the seven seals now we're dealing with a biblical
subject that everybody can, can have an opportunity.
I've told the feds that all I ask of them is to, is to
show me where the seals are found in the prophecies.
Now, they've yet to do this. Now, they've got -- most
all those guys there are Catholics and, you know, some
guys are, are --
MR. HARWELL: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:-~-- pretty strong, you know,
with, with the Vatican and all that.
MR. HARWELL: Sure.
M. KORESH: And I've told them - you got
all these preachers and all these teachers and all
these great scholars around the world. I says, it's
the least minimal thing that I could ask for, you know,
just them to show me where the seals are found in the
~--aprophecies.
MR. HARWELL:
MR. KORESH:17
Yes.
Now, this is the whole raw test
of what we're dealing with now. Okay.
MR. HARWELL:
MR. KORESH:
know, when -- even the
came here to the front
accident. Now, that's
admitted that. And so
in the door and I toldWell, my understanding --f
But the real thing is that, you
ATF agent admitted when they
door he said his gun went off by
already been aired and they
when, when, when I was standing
them, I told them, I says, I
says, get back, get out of here, there's women and
children. I said, let's talk about this, and I was
standing right there in the doorway.
MR. HARWELL:
standing there, David,
MR. KORESH:
have fired on me.
MR. HARWELL:I wish I had been the one
so I could listen to you --
Well. I know you all wouldn't
- because I know you would
have been a man of your word and --
MR. KORESH:
MR. HARWELL:Right.
-- and that's -- that I regret
so much. The only way I know to talk to you, David, I
don't have fine language and all this -- ~
MR. KORESH:
MR. HARWELL:Right.
-- finesse and talking. All I
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know to do is sit down and talk to folks the way I know
how and try to resolve problems.
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible!
MR. HARWELL: Now, this is the hardest
problem I've ever sat down and tried to resolve and
I-..
MR. KORESH: Right, I understand.
MR; HARWELL: - I'm not trying to gain any,
anything other than just see you and the folks out
there who we care about, the folks out here who we care
about --
MR. KORESH: Do you remember Perry --
MR. HARWELL: - come out of there safely.
MR. KORESH: Do you remember Perry Jones?
MR. HARWELL= Yeah, I sure do. I remember
Perry.
MR. KORESH: Well, he was standing there in
the, in the doorway beside me and they shot and killed
him. is
MR. HARWELL: Well, let me tell you this,
David, I, I've heard these things and you're certainly
going to have an opportunity to, to work with these
things when this thing is -- if you all will work with
us and let you get you our - let us get everybody out
safely where we can all sit down and talk you're going
to have opportunities to --
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MR. KORESH: Yeah, I know.
MR. HARWELL: -- to, to view all these.
MR. KORESH: I realize this.
MR. HARWELL: You're going -- you know we're
going to treat you right here locally. We've, we've
done gone through this before.
MR. KORESH: It's not a local matter anymore,
Mr. Harwell.
MR. HARWELL: Well, I'm fixing to make it a
local matter, David. I, I have certain
responsibilities and authority as Sheriff. And --
MR. KORESH: Why didn't you all -- you know,
when I came into town and stuff like that, you know, I
jog here every day, Robert Gonzalez knew that, why
didn't you all just arrest me on the outside somewhere
instead of bringing everybody --
MR. HARHJLL: David, I can't tell you this
because I wasn't involved in this --
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. HARWELL: -- from, from my personal stand
point.
MR. KORESH: It was ATF.
MR. HARWELL: Yes. I wasn't involved in it
personally so I can't tell you why. I know how I would
have done it probably if I had been there. But I can't
answer truthfully to you and I don't want to mislead
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you and I can't answer to you truthfully about someone
else. I'm only held responsible for my, my actions and
my, my attitudes and I, I assure you that I will try to
be responsible and show you all every consideration
that I can, every courtesy that I can, and, and -P
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. HARWELL: -- after this thing is over.
We're not, we're not mad at you folks here locally. I
don't think anyone else --
MR. KORESH: Well "
MR. HARWELL: - these, these negotiators,
I've talked to them and David, believe me, they have
been working out of consideration and concern for you
folks out there for, for this thing to be resolved and
no one else get hurt: that's what we're all concerned
-- and then after this is over and we're all settled
down and away from all this, this thing that's going on
right now, then we can sit down and talk and be
reasonable and sane with each other and, and, and show
our caring for each other. But right now we're at a
stalemate where we can't. According to what I'm told,
now, I'm, I'm - I haven't been in - you know, I just
demanded that I talk to you and, and not knowing all
the thing, I know how I feel about you and I wanted to
express these things to you personally from my own
personal feelings for you.
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MR; KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: And I can assure you that my
authority as Sheriff in this county is much greater
than, than most people realize and I, I assure you that
I can work with these folks. They are not mean folks,
they're just -- sometimes we get in circumstances and
we don't understand each other and don't take time
to --
MR. KORESH: To take a look.
MR. HARWELL: Yeah, that's right. And --
MR. KORESH: Well, like, like I said, I want
to -- I already told them that my intention was to come
out. But now like I say, you know, I realize that
people are indiscernible! the spirit of prophecy, but
my God tell me to wait and that's why I'm doing and
people here are being tested and tried and, and those
who want to come out can come out. I know --
MR. HARWELL: David, is there any way --
pardon me for interrupting, I didn't mean to interrupt
you because I'm not normally a rude person but --
MR. KORESH: Go ahead.
MR. HARWELL: -- again, my concern is the
safety and the well-being of you and all the, all the
folks out there --
M. KORESH: Would you like to talk to
anybody?
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MR. HARWELL: -- and what I want to do is, is
ask you to tell me, tell me what it would -- what we
need to do, what you would feel comfortable with, tell
me personally and I'll see that it's done. I'll talk
to the people here. I'm sure I can work with them
if -- and I will -- before I do anything I will be in
contact with them and be sure that we're working
together and that they're not going to do anything
except under the conditions that we talk about. So I'm
asking you to please tell me what I can do to give my
personal guarantee of what I can do to get some counsel
from you on how we can resolve this thing.
MR. KORESH: Well, as I told them before,
they, they don't seem to understand or believe me. I
told them that I am not worried about the judicial
system --
MR. HARWELL: No, don't worry about that,
David.
MR. KORESH: -- I'm, I'm not worried about --
I'm not going to commit suicide. I told them point
blank that I am willing to come out. It just lies
between one thing; my God told me to wait and that's
all I'm doing. This right now -- the seven seals, the
subject is going all around the world now. People are
being wakened up to realize that in the Book of
Revelation now there is a revelation of Jesus Christ
92..-423
pertaining to seven seals. When there's time no longer
this mystery is to be finished as God declared to the
prophets. These are very plain statements that anybody
in-their right mind can understand.
MR. HARWELL: Certainly, and I want youTto
have the opportunity to, to -- and I will afford you
that opportunity. You know I'm, I'm, I'm in a position
where I can afford you an opportunity to talk to every
news person in this --
MR. KORESH: Well, that's --
MR. HARWELL: -- country through one or two
people if I can get you to, to help me get --
MR. KORESH: See, all it is right now is that
they're just -- they want to hurry up and they want us
to come out. I can't --
MR. HARWELL= Well, my only hurry, David, I
wouldn't mind sitting here for a month if I knew no one
else would get hurt. My concern about hurrying is that
I know you have some children out there, I'm concerned
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: -- about your health because I
understand you've been hurt.
MR. KORESH: They promised us milk, they
promised us milk. They -- I gave them $1,000, Mr.
Harwell. I sent $1,000 cash. I sent -- we sent Mark
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out and we told him now, you know, we, we need six
gallons of milk for the babies because the women that
have the babies, you know, the, the stress and all that
they're losing their milk.
MR. HARWELL: Yes. _
MR. KORESH: And we sent also -- with the
first children we sent for one or two gallons of, of
milk that we have here.
MR. HARWELL: Oh, those are the sweetest kids
I had an opportunity to see, so David, believe
me --
MR. KORESH: Well, we still got a bunch more
here indiscernible!.
MR. HARWELL: Those are the sweetest kids and
look -- _
MR. KORESH: They're saying they're abnormal
because we teach them to respect everybody.
MR. HARWELL: No, no, those are the sweetest
kids and I'll tell you straightforward, I'm so
concerned about those children's well-being and to get
them - we just don't need harm to happen to them or to
you or to anyone else. None of these kids -- we, we
just want to get this thing somewhere. "And that's why
I ask you -- what input or, or may I ask you for your
counsel on how we can resolve this thing?
MR. KORESH: Well --
92....425
MR. HARWELL: I want to do it the way you
want to do it where you will feel comfortable so that
you know that you're going to be safe and you're going
to be afforded all the courtesies and everything that
we can do as we did before. We're not mean people, you
know that. I'm not a mean person, I -- and that's what
I want to do is get your input or your ideas on how we
can resolve this thing under terms that are
satisfied - that's within reason that will satisfy
you.
MR. KORESH: Well, it's being worked out
right now, I just wish they would, you know, give us
the milk like they said, you know? I mean everything
we've been asking with these -- okay, for instance like
Jim and Gary and Henry and Dick and John and this new
guy John? _
MR. HARWELL: Yes.
MR. KORESH: Every one of them sounds like
they came off the same cookie sheet.
MR. HARWELL: Well, I, I can't say I'm like
indiscernible! David. I'm --
MR. KORESH: I know, but I mean --
MR. HARWELL= -- I'm what I am and I can't --
so really, I --
MR. KORESH: There's not a, there's not a
genuine ounce of blood in these men.
I~....¢26
MR. HARWELL: Well, I can't talk -- I'm not
polished.
MR. KORESH: These feds are, these feds are,
are wild, I mean, they are really wild.
MR. HARWELL: Well, sometimes they've done
things in the past that, that I didn't agree with --
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: -- and, and I tell them. I'm
not one that holds back what I think.
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: If you, if you want to know how
I feel about something just ask me and I'll tell you --
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: -- and I'll tell you
straightforward. I'm -- that's why I want to ask you
again if there's something I can do, get your
suggestion on what I can do --
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. HARWELL{ -- to get this, this thing
resolved and I'll assure you if I give you my word on
it now you know that to be good because --
M. KORESH: We're just -- we're --
MR. HARWELL: -- we've dealt with it in the
past.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, we're just waiting on the
Lord now. I mean, I mean, the people here are already
~.....42'7
convinced -- see, our original, our original agreement
was this; with every child we sent out, Mr. Harwell, we
gave them the phone number and the address of their
closest of kin --
MR. HARWELL: Yes.
MR. KORESH: -- and they promised us that
they would contact their grandmothers and --
MR. HARWELL: Has that not been done?
MR. KORESH: No, no, they got them all
hurdled together in one place. They're not going to
release them. They were talking about on the news to
send them to foster parents and that's -- that was
totally wrong. So now, now you can realize why the
people here don't believe them. Next thing was is that
I gave them $1,000 and I said this money, if you ever
need any more money, is to take care of the kids and
food. And I said now, we need some - we need six
gallons of milk for the babies that are here and okay,
okay, we'll get this worked out, can you send someone
else out, yes -- so we sent Mark out. Then they --
MR. KORESH: You know, that inspired me. I
heard about the $1,000, David, and that didn't surprise
me at all because I've known that that's the kind of
person you've been over the past. That's the --
MR. KORBSH: Well, we're in this trouble --
MR. HARWELL: -- way I've known you to be.
~ ..-428
MR. KORESH: -- and, and, and like they're
saying all this money it's costing the city; we're not
trying to make anybody have to pay any money.
MR. HARWELL: No, no, I know that. You all
have been independent. David, about the babies on this
milk --
MR. KORESH: But those are our children.
MR. KORESH: - that concerns me. Why
have -- I'm, I'm concerned about those babies. I want
those babies taken care of. Now, if you need some
milk --
MR. KORESH: Do you know what they're saying
now?
MR. HARWELL: -- out there I'll see what I
can see what I can do about getting that milk out there
to you because I want those babies taken care of.
MR. KORESH: Well, here's the thing,
Mr. Harwell. What they're saying now is after we've
already sent three more kids out, then they're telling
us that they want four more kids before they send us
the milk.
MR. HARWELL: Well, would that help to, to
get the milk out there to you? would that --
MR. KORESH: It'll definitely help the
babies.
MR. HARWELL: All right. All right. That's
a-.429
good. would it help us --
I MR. KORESH: And I told them I would send
some pictures of the remaining children and the
mothers.
MR. HARWELL: If I get that out there to you
would that help your, your knowing that I'll do what I
tell you? I've, I've not talked to these people here
but I will see that that's there, I'll see that it's
delivered to you, and --
MR. KORESH: Well, yeah, I mean we -- like we
told them, in the position we're in I've been talking
to all the guys and stuff here, I said, look, in our
profession of faith we know what we believe and we
believe what we know. I says now it's between God and
them. Now, God's told me to wait, you know, and I'm
waiting, I says, but, you know, we have to realize that
whatever comes to us after this point is all in the
hands of God and there's not a --
MR. I-IARWELL:~~ Yes, I --
MR. KORESH:_ -- nation or power that's going
to overrule what God wants.
MR. HARWELL: Well, if I get - how much milk
do you need, David?
MR. KORESH: Well, we, we told them, we told
them we needed six gallons because I have --
MR. HARWELL: All right. If I get you six
~......430
--I'm, I'm going to see that you get --
MR. KORESH: - I have --
MR. HARWELL: - six gallons of milk brought
out, but I'm not going to let those babies suffer
because of -- I
MR. KORESH: There's one, two, three, four,
five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve,
thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen -- there are
sixteen kids here that still drink milk.
MR. HARWELL: Well, do you think six gallons
is enough?
MR. KORESH: Well, yeah, I mean, we, we
figure --
MR. HARWELL: All right. I'll, I'll see that
you get the six gallons of milk. If - I'll need to
get with them and work that out. Now, I'm not going to
be able to sit here with you David and work all the
terms. What I wanted to do to you -- I say with you is
to sit here and talk from my heart to you and let you
know that we --
MR. KORESH: Well, I appreciate it and we
love you all.
MR. HARWELL: - we're concerned about you
all and we, we care for you. We love you and those
babies I just -- it just makes my heart swell up to see
those kids come out and how well they've been taken
92._431
care of and, and all this.
MR. KORESH: And, and --
MR. HARWELL: And they're being taken care of
now. Now, I can't answer - I wasn't involved in how
they were going to be -- I know they're in good care
now but I wasn't involved and wasn't aware that --
MR. KORESH: Right. A
MR. HARWELL: -- they were supposed to be
turned over to parents or grandparents or what that
process was. I've been involved in other things,
David, trying to keep --
MR. KORESH: Yeah, I understand.
MR. HARWELL: - some level head about all
this so that we can resolve this thing. You don't know
how deeply I mean it when I say I want you all out
without your being hurt. -
I MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: I want these other folks --
they're going to leave here when this is over. They're
going to go back to their, their places wherever it is,
but you and I and our folks are going to be here to
work with each other for a long time and I want to know
that we can do it without any ill will, we can sit down
and talk when we need to. But more than anything --
M. KORESH: We've always --
MR. HARWELL: -- to get you all where you're
,11...;1
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9
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32
not hurt, where you can have an opportunity to go on
with life.
MR. KORESH: Right. You know, we --
MR. HARWELL: Does that make sense to you?
Do you understand how deeply -- '
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah, it makes sense.
MR. HARWELL: - I feel that?
MR. KORESH: Well, you know, I told Larry
and, and, and -- you know, I brought Larry to the place
and I told him, you know, that there's a lot of things
that I'd like to sit with him and talk with him about,
you know, to come on out and go fishing and stuff. And
it's just like this agent over here next door, he can
come over anytime he wanted. He was -- I was even
going to let him move in here.
MR. HARWELL: I wasn't aware of that
either, David, I, I sure didn't know.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, but, you know, his name
was Robert. If you'd do me a favor. If you could see
if they would contact Robert Garcia and ask him --
excuse me, Robert Gonzalez, and see if he'd give me a
call. Tell him I'm not angry at him, I'm not upset, I
just want to talk to him a bit.
MR. HARWELL: Well, I can't guarantee that
they - the only thing I can guarantee is what I tell
you I will do or --
~._a33
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: -- at all, David. I won't
speak for other -- because if I tell you I'm going to
do something, you can, you can take it for, for the
truth and I'm going to do it and there won't be any
doubt about it. Like the milk --
MR. KORESH: Tell Sheriff Thorn --
MR. HARWELL: -- I'm going to see that that
milk is brought in out there and we're not going to let
those babies --
MR. KORESH: Right.
MR. HARWELL: -- go unattended.
MR. KORESH: And tell Sheriff Thorn that
we're in trouble again, but again, you know, we didn't
mean anything.
MR. HARWELL: I know it, David. All my folks
who have had contact with you out there from time to
time out there and, and various places we've all had a
good rapport with you and we respect you and respect
your facilities out there and we've always been that
way. So --
MR. KORESH: I mean, we do have, we do have
some, some beliefs that are considered strange today,
you know, but the Bible indiscernible! you know?
MR. HARWELL: Well, that's your privilege, I
respect that. I respect that.
,_.-n34
MR. KORESH: We try to do things that, you
know, haven't hurt anybody and stuff like that. It's
just, it's just this is, this is our belief, this is
what --
MR. HARWELL: Yes. -
MR. KORESH: -- we know of God, this is what
God has shown us --
MR. HARWELL: Sure.
MR. KORESH: -- and we're progressing. And
we've got, we've got to recover all the truth.
MR. HARWELL: Well, let's get this thing
settled. I'm going to give you back to John, David, so
I can go get preparations made to get this milk in to
you. I want --
MR. KORESH: Okay. One, one --
MR. HARWELL: -- to get that done right now
so that those babies are taken care of.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. HARWELL:" I'm going to let you --
MR. KORESH: One, one more, one more thing.
MR. HARWELL: All right.
MR. KORESH: There -- over in, over in
Beverly Hills --
MR. HARWELL: Yes?
MR. KORESH: -- there's a, there's a police
officer over there. His name escapes me. He works
~....435
night shifts --
MR. HARWELL: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: -- and, you know, he, he knows
me from -- you know, the black Camaro that I have?
MR. HARWELL: Yes. '
MR. KORESH: And let's see, what's that,
what's that store, the Stop N Go right there out there
by the Shamrock? Okay. It's on --
MR. HARWELL: David, I'm --
MR. KORESH: -- Valley Mills there and it's
got the --
MR. HARWELL: On Valley --
MR. KORESH: -- little walk-over from the
school.
MR. HARWELL: Is it on South Valley Mills or
are you talking about South Junior?
MR. KORESH: Right, it's near the high school
there.
MR. HARWELL:~ Yeah, it's the South Junior
High School.
MR. KORESH: Anyway, if you ever get a chance
to, to talk with those guys over there, tell that, tell
that one officer -- he should know me, you know, ask
for the officer that knows the David Koresh who has
the, the black Camaro --
MR. I-IARWELL: All right.
0
-.....436
MR. KQRESH: -- you know? Tell him that it's
not what it appears because I had a real good time with
that guy. We used to talk, you know, just about every
other night or so over there.
MR. HARWELL: Yes. '
MR. KORESH: And, you know, and, and, and
tell him, you know, that I have a lot of Camaro parts
and stuff now that he might be able to have.
MR. HARWELL: I'll see that he gets the
information.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. HARWELL: David, give this some thought
and help me, any thought you have -
MR. KORESH: I'll do everything I can do.
MR. HARWELL: - or anything, give me some
help to get everybody pulled together. You see, I'm
caught in between here.
MR. KORESH: I understand.
MR. HARWELL:~ And I don't know how to handle
that and I can't give you any definite answers on
anything other than I give you my word that what I tell
you is going to be done it's going to be done that way
if I -- and I, I need your input on this to help me
figure out a way to get this thing settled --
MR. KORESH: We don't want indiscernible!.
MR. HARWELL: - without anyone else getting
r
92_...437
hurt. ,
MR. KORESH: Okay. Someone wants to say
something to you real quick.
MR. HARWELL: All right .
MR. KORESH: Just real quick.
MR. HARWELL: All right. Who is this?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, Sheriff Harwell?
MR. HARWELL: Yes?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, my name is Steve
Schneider. I've never met you before but I've spent a
lot of time in and out of Waco here --
MR. HARWELL: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - back and forth between
California.
MR. HARWELL: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But yeah, I've heard a lot of
good things about you.
MR. HARWELL: I look forward to meeting you,
Steve. I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's good. I've
heard your name mentioned many times by David here in
a, in a very good way.
MR. HARWELL: Yes. What I'm going to do,
Steve, sometime I, I will have a chance to meet you. I
need to go do what I told David I would do is get some
milk out for the babies --
~.._.438
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
MR. HARWELL: -- so I'm going to let John
talk to you all here and, and I'm going to get out, out
and do what I told him I would do.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. 3
MR. HARWELL: And we'll talk to you later.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I really appreciate it.
MR. HARWELL: Bye~bye.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
JOHN DOLAN: David?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Hello?
JOHN DOLAN: Hello.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, John?
JOHN DOLAN: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah - oops, here we go
again with this crazy phone. John?
JOHN DOLAN= Yes?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Here's David.
JOHN DOLAN: ~Okay, David. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I'm sorry. He said I was
to tell you that he enjoyed very much talking to
Mr. Harwell.
man .JOHN DOLAN: I was sitting right next to him.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: He's a very, very impressive
».....439
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I'll tell you what, we'll
get a call in here from the Sheriff's Department when,
when he's got everything set up and I'll just call you
and tell you. Y
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sounds good.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thanks.
JOHN DOLAN: Byebye.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Bye.
1-*'k**
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello?
JOHN: Hi, is David there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes, he is.
JOHN: Hi, this is John. Could I speak to
him for a second?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: David, it's
John on the phone. Want to talk to him?
Indiscernible male voice in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He, he was
sleeping and I tapped him on the foot and said he's
trying to get some energy together.
JOHN: Okay. I just -- I don't want to speak
to him for long, I don't want to take any, any energy
out of him and it's just regarding the milk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: SOIIY? What
92...440
was that last --
JOHN: It's, it's just regarding the milk --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.
JOHN: -- and it will be very short.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Want to talk to
Steve?
JOHN: No, I'd just rather speak to David,
please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Indiscernible!
MR. KORESH: Speaking in background!
Indiscernible! no reason to try to negotiate on
indiscernible! something that they've lied about
indiscernible! earlier -- three kids have asked for
that milk.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He Said if it's
regarding sending more children out --
JOHN: No, no, absolutely not, absolutely
not, absolutely not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He said
absolutely not.
MR. KORESH: Yes, John?
JOHN: Hi, David. I want to make this short.
I'm not going to ask about anything. All I just want
to say is that the milk is ready to be brought down.
It's contained in two coolers with three gallons in
each cooler and that's all I wanted to say. I don't
t...-n9 I
41
want to take any of your energy, don't want to ask you
for anything and all I can say between you and me is
just thank goodness the Sheriff came and intervened.
MR. KORESH: Hey, God bless Mr. Harwell.
Tell him we're all, we're all very grateful. We've
always loved the Sheriff's Department here and, and we
just - you know, just God bless the man in remembering
and everything.
JOHN: I agree, I agree 100 percent. Let's
just hope that maybe this is the beginning of things
getting us back on track.
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: But in any case, the, the delivery
will be in the same location. It's the two coolers
with the three gallons for a total of six gallons,
okay?
MR. KORESH: Okay. Hey, hey, thanks a lot,
John.
JOHN: I appreciate if you --
MR. KORESH: Is Mr. Harwell going to be
talking to us anymore?
JOHN: I'm not sure of that, but I just, just
if you could take a few seconds when, when you get it
just give me a buzz back and let me know that it's okay
and everything's okay and that's it.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, when it's well,
92....44 2
when it's up there --
JOHN: It's on its way.
M. KORESH: When it's up there just, you
know, we'll pick it up and then --
JOHN: Okay. Just give me a jingle back.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, we're, we're also
going to go ahead and send that tape and stuff to you
all guys too.
JOHN: That's fine.
MR. KORESH: Okay?
JOHN: Yeah. Just one second.
JOHN: Could, could you do me one favor?
MR . KORESH: Sure .
JOHN: And this has nothing - I'm not asking
for any children or anything like that. This is
strictly from a safety point. On the side by the
construction, on the far side, the north side by the
construction, there appears to be -- the north side --
there appears to be something sticking out of the
window. The guys are just concerned that it might be a
weapon. We don't want anybody hurt.
MR. KORESH: Well, they were, they were --
you know, they keep mentioning that but there's nothing
-- okay, let me say on the, on the side where the well
tower is, right?
JOHN: On the side --
C
I
92~....443
MR. KORESH: On the building - is it on the
second or third level?
JOHN: From what I can tell it would be the
uppermost level, the level under the roof. And I --
MR. KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: - can't see this personally, I'll,
I'll be honest with you, I can't. I'm in a room
without windows, totally without windows. But --
MR. KORESH: All right.
JOHN: -- it's just a question of safety and
the deliverers were concerned about the safety issue
so -- .
MR. KORESH: Okay. Where's Steve at, Rach?
It's the same place where they said before?
JOHN: Before, yeah, that's exactly correct.
MR. KORESH: Is it -- is there a flag pole or
something like -- I mean what does it exactly look
like?
JOHN: What they're telling me is it appears
to be some kind of a weapon like the barrel of a weapon
is the appearance that it's giving. And I --
MR. KORESH: Hey --
JOHN: -- honestly don't know.
MR. KORESH= -- Neal? Here talk to this guy
here real quick --
JOHN: Okay.
~...444
MR. KORESH: -- okay?
JOHN: Yeah, sure.
MR. KORESH: And tell him the specifics.
JOHN:
NEAL
JOHN
NEAL
JOHN
NEAL
JOHNOkey-dokey.
Hello, John?
Hi.
Yeah.
Neal, how you doing?
All right.
Okay. The people outside are relaying
to us -- and you got to understand this comes through a
few people, okay?
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN: But on the side overlooking the
construction which I believe would be the north side of
the building on the upper-most level --
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN: - the window closest to the front of
the building there appears to be something, possibly
the barrel of a weapon, out -- coming out of the
window.
NEAL: Huh.
JOHN: So the -- like in a porthole by the
window. Okay, so they just -- if you could check
whether it's a broom stick or a barrel, whatever it is,
if you could get it just brought back in so the guys
L<....4O Q
45
coming up would feel safe we, we surely would
appreciate it.
NEAL: Okay, sure.
JOHN: Okay?
NEAL: We'll do that, yeah.
JOHN: All right. Do you want to give me a
buzz back when that's done and then we'll get the milk
right up there?
NEAL: Excuse me?
JOHN: Give me a buzz back when that's done
or checked and we'll send the delivery up?
NEAL: Okay.
JOHN: Now, we can also make final
arrangements as to the people coming out and how, how
you want us to pick up the tapes and how we're going to
pick up the tapes and stuff.
NEAL: Okay. I'll hand that over to David
right now.
JOHN: Okay. Very good.
~ NEAL: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Are you there?
JOHN: Hi.
MR. KORESH: Okay. He's checking on that
right now.
JOHN: Okay, very good. How do you -- did
you plan on bringing the tape out at the same time that
-...-a46
the people went out to pick up the milk?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, we could. They could just
drop it there.
JOHN: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: We'll just, we'll just leave it
in plain open sight there.
JOHN: Plain, plain open sight would be fine.
MR. KORESH: Right.
JOHN: And then they'll, they'll leave and
when they come back in and say that they're in then we
can go back and get the tape. How does that work?
MR. KORESH: Okay. That'll be fine.
JOHN: Okay. How many - who -- do -- one
gentleman or two gentlemen plan on going out?
MR. KORESH: For the milk?
JOHN: Probably going to need two gentlemen.
M. KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: Okay.
M. KORESH:"'All right. If it's, if it's, if
it's just a regular cooler with just --
JOHN: A regular cooler.
MR. KORESH: -- three gallons a girl can go
out too so, you know, if you want --
JOHN: Sure, a girl, sure, a girl would be
able to. It's --
MR. KORESH: All right.
a.-447
JOHN=s -- what, a pint is a pound so whatever
that, that works out --
MR. KORESH: Hey, we appreciate you all
finally coming around with this. We, we just could not
understand why you all were, you know, punching at the
kids, you know, for something like this.
JOHN: Do you want me to tell you something?
MR. KORESH: Go ahead.
JOHN: Neither can I, neither can I, okay?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
JOHN: And -- neither can I.
MR. KORESH: I gave you $1,000, you know? We
was trying to relieve, you know, your costs for the
other children there and --
JOHN: Yeah, that had nothing to do with it.
It's - you know who it is and I know who it is and
it's not us. I'll just leave it at that.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: Believe me, it's not us, it's not us.
But thank, thank goodness we're on the track. I really
do want to help you and I, I think this is maybe
something to get us on the right track.
M. KORESH: Yeah.
JOHN: So, let's, let's--- L
MR. KORESH: Yeah, well, anytime any of the
Sheriff's Department guys, you know, Larry -- or any of
K
/
92a.-.448
those guys want.to, want to talk to me I'd be more than
happy to talk with them.
JOHN: Okey-dokey.
MR. KORESH: I mean, you know, it's --
JOHN: Yeah. »
MR. KORESH: -- I've always liked those guys
and --
JOHN: Hey, that, that, that Sheriff, man, I
tell you, if sincerity were a well that guy is about
10,000 feet deep.
MR. KORESH: I, I wish they had offered me
the search warrant. They would have never -- this
would have never happened. I mean, I've always been
available and those guys know it.
JOHN: Hey --
MR. KORESH: You know, it's --
JOHN: There were a lot of mistakes made, you
know, nobody kidding anybody, there's a lot of mistakes
made in this thing, you'know what I mean?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
JOHN: And the government's got a big problem
over it, let's face it.
MR. KORESH: Yeah. Steve says there's
nothing out there, there's nothing -- anything it looks
like -- is it a flag pole or something?
MR. SCHNEIDER: In background! No, there's a
~.....449
hanger keeping a, a window open.
MR. KORESH: Oh, oh, there's, there's a
hanger keeping a window open.
JOHN: There's a hanger keeping a window --
MR. KORESH: Clothes hanger, yeah. -
JOHN: Okay. What they're telling me, like I
said, this is strictly hearsay --
MR. KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: -- is that it's a porthole next to
that window on the north side and it's the upper-most
story and it's the window closest --
MR. KORESH: A porthole?
JOHN: Yeah, like a hole --
M. KORESH: It's got like a vent over it,
right? .
JOHN: Like -- kind of like a hole in the
outside -- what's the, what's the outside? Not stucco
but what -- wood or whatever -- anyway, there's a hole
cut in the outside structure and there's, there's
something sticking out of that porthole is what I'm
getting.
MR. KORESH: All right. You know, they're
talking about, they're talking about the vent for the,
for the, for the, for the, for the paint booth, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: In background! Well
indiscernible! down on the first -- way down on the
92..-150
very ground indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH: Well, they don't know -- that's,
that's, that's on -- yeah, but it's, it's high so they
think it's the second level, yeah.
JOHN: They're, they're telling me, David,
that it's the uppermost level, the level just down
under the roof.
MR. KORESH: The very uppermost level.
JOHN: The uppermost level, yeah.
MR. KORESH: Is there -- is there a hole
knocked in up there anywhere, Steve, or what?
MR. SCHNEIDER: In background! There's a
hole in the wall.
JOHN: There's a hole in the wall, yeah.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, how big is the hole?
MR. SCHNEIDER: In background! Whatever
they shot at the wall there'd be a hole there.
MR. KORESH: I mean, he says like a pretty
good - about like two or three inches, huh?
JOHN: Honestly don't know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: In background! Couple like
that they taped over with indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH: There's -- well, be sure and
check to see what they're talking about --
MR. SCHNEIDER: In background! Tell him if
you want I'll go step out in the front, look back and
<...-151
try indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH: Steve says, Steve says he'll,
he'll walk around the front and he'll, and he'll try
to --
JOHN: No, no, no, he can do it from the
inside. I don't want him to come out.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, he said there's nothing
from the inside. I mean, no one's doing that. They've
been told to -- just to observe and not to put any, you
know, weapons or anything out the windows or anything
or point the weapons at anybody. They've been told
that over and over again.
JOHN: I'm sure that --
V MR. KORESH: That's, that's the side, that's
the side we've been on.
JOHN: Right, right. Okay. Let's see if we
can get this going. We all want to get this going for
you, believe me, I do personally.
MR. KORESH: ~And this is, this is, this is
the side of the building that's looking towards the
garage, right? The little white garage where our
motorcycles were at?
JOHN: I'm trying to figure -- okay, if you
were looking at the front of your building it would be
to the right. It would be right end if you were
looking - outside your building and looking to the
a.-.452
front door it would be the left end.
MR. KORESH: Oh, Steve, he's talking about
this side over here.
lndiscernible voices in background.!
MR. KORESH: No, no, no, I know, but asT--
look, here's the deal.
JOHN: Facing the pit. Facing the fit.
MR. KORESH: Okay, facing the -- okay, look,
if you were standing, if you were standing at our
entrance ~-
JOHN: Right, correct.
MR. KORESH: -- then the pit is on our left
side.
JOHN: Correct.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, that's the side he's
been checking.
JOHN: That's correct.
MR. KORESH: And there's, and there's
nothing.
JOHN: There's nothing, huh? Okay, that --
MR. KORESH: Absolutely nothing.
JOHN: Don't ask me how we're getting the
hangup over this. I don't know the answer to it.
MR. KORESH: Okay. So, is this, is this, is
this an observation from one of the Bradleys or what?
JOHN: This is an observation from somebody
I 14S3
1 out there. 'I don't know exactly how, how -- who's
2 making it, it's coming in to us. But they're saying
3 that there's a -- let me tell you exactly what they're
M 4 saying. They're saying a hole very much like a
5 iporthole alongside that front -- alongside that window
6 on the left side --
7 MR. KORESH: Right.
8 y JOHN: -- my left, your right. Okay. There
9 is something which may be or is a barrel protruding
10 from that hole or porthole next to that window.
11* MR. KORESH: Aimed at his direction?
12 JOHN: I don't know where it's aimed.
13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: In background!
It's aimed north.
15 JOHN: It's aimed - I'm repeating -- aimed
16 northeast.
17* MR. KORESH: Northeast?
18 JOHN: Yeah.
19 I MR. KORESH: ~The only porthole in that side
20 of the building is not on the upper structure, it's on
21 -- it's towards the lower one. It's next to -- it's
22 below a window actually is what it is and it's, it's a
23 vent is what it is. It's a vent for --
24 JOHN: Oh, I can -- okay, I've got a picture.
25 I can see that vent. That's kind of like below a spot
light, the vent is below a spot light.
~..-454
MR. KORESH: Right.
JOHN: Yeah, I can see that. This, this is a
hole -- I'm looking at the hole. It's - if you were
on - in -- on the inside of that floor it would be oh,
about a foot up from sill level. '
MR. KORESH: I see.
JOHN: Where the sill level -- where the sill
is.
MR. KORESH: But Steve, there's nothing up
there, right?
JOHN: There's nothing sticking up?
MR. KORESH: Oh man, I wish we could find out
-- okay, here's Steve right here. Talk to him real
quick.
JOHN: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, John?
JOHN: Hi, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I, I -~ in fact I was willing
to take a step outside -- I
JOHN: No.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- look up at the building to
see myself what on earth it could be.
JOHN: Got me, you got me, and we're trying
to, we're trying to straighten it out right now and you
might hear some -- I may just break conversation with
you for a second --
~....4 V r7T
55
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: - but this is because I'm getting a
relay in here. But as I was saying to David, what it
appears like to me is like there's a hole - it doesn't
appear like -- exactly like a porthole in the sense
that it's not a perfect round. It's, it's some kind of
a hole. It would be about, and this is just a guess,
about maybe a foot or 18 inches up from sill level.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, is, is there anything
protruding out of the hole? I understood from what you
were asking --
JOHN: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - originally there's
something protruding out of the hole.
JOHN: That's, that's what -- the information
I'm receiving. Now, whether we're -- you and I and
everybody else can determine if that's accurate. So,
you know, that's where we're at. Well, the first thing
I looked for was any kind of a hole and then at the
same time I looked for a protrusion of anything out
or --
JOHN: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - and there was nothing ~-
JOHN: Yeah, that's the same thing --
MR. SCHNEIDER: - nothing at all.
JOHN: -- that's the same thing you and I
<...-456
talked about this morning.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: Yeah. iSo that's - we'll -- don't
worry, we'll get it worked out in a few minutes here so
it's - ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: So is it a report from one
guy or a couple guys in a Bradley, they're both capable
of seeing some -- I mean, I'm curious to be honest with
you. I'd like to know myself just what you're talking
about.
JOHN: I'd like to well, at, at this point
I'd like to talk to the guys myself, to be honest with
you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: What, what did you think of
Dick's report about the balaclava or whatever it was?
JOHN: Well, I, I used to wear one so I knew
what he was talking about right away, but I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean but - I mean he was
almost like frantic because there someone looking out a
window with camouflage clothing and that on the face.
JOHN: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I didn't quite understand
what the thing was.
JOHN: Hold on, we may have some, some
movement here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
I
92.92..ȢO O
57
JOHN:_ Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: John --
JOHN: Okay. We're, we're moving.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: We're moving.
MR. SCHNEIDER: What do you mean you're
moving?
JOHN: Okay. We're going to bring the milk
up.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: So, somehow that got resolved.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They're going to bring the
milk now.
JOHN: They're going to bring the milk up and
you guys are going to bring out the, bring out the
tape?
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: Okay. Wait until we pull away before
anybody comes out. a»
l MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: Okay, and then I'll tell you when to
come out and we'll stay on the line.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just hang, hang on a second.
JOHN: Why don't we, why don't we stay, stay
on the line and coordinate this?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Someone's ask - someone's
92...458
asking me a question.
JOHN: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just a minute.
Indiscernible female voice in background.!
MR. SCHNEIDER: What? f
Indiscernible female voice in background.!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Because I was
looking out with the binoculars and you can always
indiscernible! the one binocular to do that. That's
probably what it is.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Could it be part of a
binocular that was looking through that hole, John? Do
you think that's what -- because someone said they were
looking out a hole and over in that area.
JOHN: Somebody just put -- nodded their head
up and down like very vigorously. I think we both hit
it on the head, that's what it was.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, is that right? SO it
could have been that then.
JOHN: Okay. Okay. That's what we're
seeing.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's what they were seeing.
JOHN: Two people, maybe?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Two people, maybe?
JOHN: Oh, okay, no, no, two people coming
l-....4 » V ._
59
out. I - I misinterpreted something.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, two people coming out,
okay.
JOHN: Yeah, well, hold on now, we'll, we'll
get that coordinated. You and I will get it. Y
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. John, I'm curious
though what the thing was about why Dick almost had a
heart attack because a girl looked out the window and
she has a dark face. She's from the Far East. But
anyway, she looked out the window and apparently he got
all excited because she had a camouflage jacket on.
JOHN: Got me. You got me.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Did you ever find out what
that was all about? I mean, to tell you the truth, I
mean, I was kind of humored by it, he seemed to be
extremely excited.
JOHN: I, I, I don't know.
Tape 92 ends.!
92....4U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURYl
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #93
3/8/93
3=3s P.M. - 1o=41 P.M.
92 ~_...-42
Tape 93! '
STEVE: Like I was telling Dick, like I was
telling Dick yesterday, you know, because of being at a
few gun shows here and there, he ran into a guy that
gave him a pretty good deal on, you know, these are 100
percent cotton, so he got a bunch of them. And some of
the people every now and then, hey, can I have one?
Can I have one? So that's how that got going, that's
how the person even had one on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Well, okay.
Yeah, well, the kind I used was a no-max thing that --
STEVE; But no ones even got a ski mask
here, let alone anything else. There's some ski hats
that they wear in the colder weather, but --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. Hey, this
is like any other thing, where something goes around
the room, you know.
STEVE: Well, yeah, yeah, I know how it goes.
I know how it goes. _N
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The word isn't
always - doesn't always filter exactly the same as it
comes out, you know.
STEVE: No ones ever experienced anything
like this, in the first place, before. This is a new
oddity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah, yeah.
-...¢n3
Well, hey, that's why we're here, you know.
STEVE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Get this done.
STEVE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okey-doke. 'I
think we're getting close, hopefully.
Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.!
Okay. Okay, the note I got is that they are
having mechanical probs, problems, with the
transportation. Hopefully, only a minute.
STEVE: Okay, well --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: So let's, let's
hang loose here for a minute.
STEVE: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We'll get this
done.
STEVE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIEDIMALE SPEAKER: And, like I
said - Okay. They're going to give us a buzz back
when they're ready.
STEVE: All right. You want to call me back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'll just give
you a buzz back.
STEVE: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Very good.
~...4STEVE: I'll talk to you in a few minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Thank you.
STEVE: Goodbye.
iiiti
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah. _
JOHN: John.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Yeah, they're on their way now.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: They're actually rolling and they
should be there very, very shortly.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Now, are - You, you wait inside till
they leave, right?
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And then your people that come out to
get the note will leave. What, what do you have, a
tape? Is that correct? A tape of the kids?
STEVE: In fact, that's what I'm in the
process of doing right now.
JOHN: Okay. They'll just leave it in the
same spot where the milk was. You guys will take in
the milk, we'll come back, pick up the - whatever it
is, the tape.
~....nSTEVE: All right, just a minute. We might
even -- Let me ask him what he already has here --
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
someone else.!
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVEOkay, sure.
-- to send along. Just a moment.
Sure. -
Indiscernible conversation with
Just a minute. So how did you --
Sure.
We -~ Let's see, right now I haven't
even begun with the tape. I've got the camera out. I
was just going to go around --
JOHN: Okay, don't, don't worry about it.
Just get the milk. We can work that out later.
STEVE
JOHN:
you see it come
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:All right.
But just, just hang in there and when
hold off --
Right.
-- and let it leave --
Back off a little bit.
Let it leave. They'll leave.
Yeah.5
Go out and get the milk and then we'll
work out the tape, whatever it is.
STEVE: Okay. So I'll take -- I'm going to
start taking pictures, and when I'm done here I'll giv 8
~...46
you a call back.
JOHN: That's great.
STEVE: Okay?
JOHN: Talk to you later.
STEVE: Okay, bye.
* * * * *
STEVE: Hello, John?
JOHN: Yes.
STEVE: Steve here.
JOHN: Hi, Steve. One second, please. Let
me switch phones here. All right.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Hello?
STEVE: Hello? Have you got it?
JOHN: One sec.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: How you doing?
STEVE: Not too bad.
JOHN: Good,
O STEVE: Just finished the filming and we're
ready to have someone take it out. How do you want the
procedure to go?
JOHN: Okay, let me check on that.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: It's a videotape of --
STEVE: Of, of the Koresh family.
a...-4JOHN: Okay, great. And how did it go? Andhow's -- I i
STEVE: It went very well. I just took --
David took a quick look at parts of it and it turned
out okay. .
JOHN: Oh, okay, very good, very good. Well
I'm anxious to see it myself.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Let me see if we can arrange how to
get it picked up. Who did you have in mind to drop it
off?
STEVE: We'll just pick one of these guys
here just to walk it down to the guard gate, or where
it used to be.
JOHN: Fine .
STEVE: And sit it somewhere there.
JOHN: The usual drop-off type location?
STEVE: Yeah. Yeah.
JOHN: That's fine, that's absolutely fine.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Why don't I just give you a buzz back
as soon as we get arrangements made?
swsvs: All right.
JOHN: And that sounds great.
STEVE: Sounds good. I'll wait for you.
JOHN: I'll call you back.
~.~4STEVE: Okay. Goodbye.
JOHN: Thank you.
'1' -k 1- 1' *
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Steve.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: John. How you doing?
STEVE: Okay. Not too bad.
JOHN: Great. Okay, how about just dropping
it off at the usual drop-off spot --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- and we'll have it picked up and
your guy just return and --
STEVE: Okay. Give me a call -- Well, I'll
tell you, I'm going to go let them know that. Give me
a call when you've, when you have it down there then.
A JOHN: You can, you can set it out any time
you'd like to.
STEVE: Okayi.
JOHN: Just -- How about right --
STEVE: Oh, by the way --
JOHN: One sec.
. STEVE: Okay, go ahead.
JOHN: Okay, just leave it -- It's just the
tape itself?
STEVE: It's a small tape now.
~...n9
JOHN:_ One of those little tapes?
STEVE: Yeah, millimeter eight.
JOHN: Eight?
STEVE: Eight millimeter size.
JOHN: Eight millimeter tapes.
STEVE: Right, right.
JOHN: And no container, just --
STEVE: It's in a container. I stuck in a,
in a little plastic case that it normally comes in.
JOHN: Oh, the normal cassette carrying type.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: Yeah, that's great. Keep it out of
the dirt.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Great.
STEVE: Okay,_so you give me a call when you
receive it.
JOHN: Oh, yeah, I'll give you, I'll give you
a call when I receive it. Are you going to send your
man out now?
STEVE: Yeah. Are you ready?
JOHN: Okay. Yes, go ahead.
STEVE: Okay, it'll be Greg. -He'll be
bringing it out.
JOHN: Greg, great.
STEVE: Okay, we'll send him out.
._...¢JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
KATHY:
JOHN:
KATHY
JOHN:
KATHY
JOHN:Send him out.
Talk to you in a little while
Talk to you in a little while.
Okay, bye.
Bye-bye.
*~ki*'k
Hello?
Hi, this is John. Rachel?
No, this is Kathy.
Hi, Kathy.
Hi, John.
Could you get a hold of Steve,10
if it
isn't too late, and ask to hold off sending the man
out, please?
KATHY: Okay, hold on a second, okay?
JOHN: Thank you.
KATHY TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Tell Steve to
hold off on sending the man out. Quick. Get a hold of
Steve and tell him to hold off sending the man out.
Tell him to come up here.
Pause!
Voices in background not discernible.!
JOHN: Okay, all right. Hello, Kathy?
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Hi, Steve. We had a little breakdown
in communication.
~....4Q I
ll
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: I was just trying to delay his
movement outward, but I understand he's already gone,
right? 4
STEVE: No, I just caught him at the door.
JOHN: Oh, you caught him at the door?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Oh, okay. Great, great. Here's what
happened. To be perfectly candid, I had a little
breakdown in communication of everybody getting the
word so quickly, so '
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: That's exactly what happened.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: Hopefully, we're just working on that,
should be just a very short time when everybodys --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: - understanding. I'm interested in
seeing the video. Did you take it?
STEVE: Yes, I did.
JOHN: Great, okay. And that's all on
David's family?
STEVE: Right. He -- In fact, he is in the
entirety of it. It's about probably 54 or 55 minutes.
JOHN: Okay, we're getting it. The man did
not leave. Is that, is that my understanding?
.412
STEVE: Yes. He's at the door, waiting.
JOHN:He's at the door waiting to go?
STEVE: Right.
JOHN:Okay. Let's see if we get that --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Somebody walked
up to the front
ground.
JOHN:of the bus and placed something on the
Okay. What, what they're telling me,
and it's probably, you know, where you have the same
communication things, is that somebody came out to the
front of the bus --
STEVE
JOHN:
Could that have
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
If that's true,
find out.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:Uh-huh.
- and placed something on the ground.
been the tape?
The front of the bus?
Yeah.
You mean our grey-silver bus there?
I would not be aware of it. I could
Yeah.
Is that, is that what it appears?
I think we're just having a
communication breakdown, but --
STEVE: Okay. I could, I could quickly send
someone over there to ask.
JOHN: Yeah, if you could see the status of
,_....¢13
the man with the tape, the tape man.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: See if he
still has the tape. Oh, he does have it?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Indiscernible.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Oh, he was as far
as the bus?
STEVE TO JOHN: Okay. And they called him
back in, so he came back in with the tape.
JOHN: Oh.
STEVE: I guess he still has it.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: I see what happened. When we said,
when we said hold him up, he was already moving --
STEVE: Right, and he made it as far as the
bus, they tell me. And then they called him back
because they heard that -
JOHN: They heard me calling.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: That's fully explainable, fully
understandable.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Okay, I think we've got it now.
STEVE: Right, oka
JOHN: Okay. I'll
STEVE: He said --see if they're all ready.
David just told me to tell
.-nl4
you he just heard on the news that he threatened the
FBI to have another war.
JOHN: Oh, he did? I'm not aware of that.
STEVE: I wasn't -- He wasn't aware of it,
either. Neither was I.
JOHN: Does, does he have the physical
possession of the tape or is it on the ground?
STEVE: He's got it right now in his hand.
JOHN: He physically has it, okay.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: He's ready to go again. Okay, let's
see if we get them to --
STEVE: John, do you know anything about
that, what the news just said? Well, probably don't,
huh?
JOHN: No. That's my -- He threatened to
return to war, huh? '
STEVE: Yeah, something like that. I mean,
anyway --
JOHN: I don't think so. pause! You and I
are both kind of on hold in the sense that --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And I know you want to send your man
out, so, anyway --
STEVE: I realize you've got to go through a
lot more red tape than I do.
~...nl5
JOHN: You've got, you've got a shorter chain
of command there, you know.
STEVE: A much shorter.
JOHN: That's why we can do it quicker. You
guys can do it quicker. I really hope things got off
to a good, good start today, based on --
STEVE: It seems like it. It seems like
we're starting to move along.
JOHN: It feels good, I can tell you that.
It feels a lot better, so we'll, we'll just keep our
fingers crossed that --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- it's starting to move. But
everybody --
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: I know it kind of takes time for, for
things to just settle down.
STEVE: This is true.
JOHN: I think we got anxious to get the tape
and we may have jumped the -- jumped the starter, you
know.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And I apologize or -
STEVE: That's okay.
JOHN: You know, it just gets rerouted. But
I like your, your system, it's one to one.
~...a16
STEVE: You've got it. No mass, awesome,
sophisticated communication system.
JOHN: It's two cans and a string.
STEVE: You've got it, two cans and a string,
that's it. '
JOHN: I'll be around, I'll be around for a
little while once we get this tape thing handled.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: And then I'll probably --
STEVE: Are you being replaced by John Cox
later or --
JOHN: Yeah, John Cox. And I'll, I'll be
back in the morning. So, hopefully, we'll look forward
to getting together tomorrow morning.
STEVE: All right. Hopefully, it'll be about
9 and not much sooner.
JOHN: Oh, okay, about 9? About 9 tomorrow?
MR. KORESH: The little guys, they get
monotonous --
STEVE: David's saying some of these other
guys get monotonous sounding.
JOHN: Oh, okay. They get monotonous
sounding?
STEVE: Yeah. You know, it's the same
rhetoric, basically, going 'round and around.
JOHN: Yeah.
~.-.4l7
STEVE: We've always tried to communicate
that we understand the first statements they make.
After that, I mean, what are you going to do? You can
say something just so many ways and after a while it"
becomes very redundant.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah. I can - Part of that is,
you know, part of that is the nature of, of the
problem. ,
STEVE: It's true. I understand the
anxiousness of these men to maybe want to get back to
their lives and whatever, but, of course, you know,
it's, it's - if they can put theirselves in our shoes
for a little bit, ours have been turned upside down.
JOHN: Yeah. The night -- By the way, just
for your information, the night man is, is a gentleman
by the name of Max Howard and he'll be coming on this
_evening. And then I'll, I'll be gone, try to get some
sleep.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN: And then I'll be back tomorrow.
STEVE: So the man that comes on is Max?
JOHN: Yeah, Max.
STEVE: I, I --
JOHN: Instead of all these Johns.
STEVE: I think I've heard his name before.
JOHN: Okay. He's been around.
MO
18
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN:He's definitely been around.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN:I think we may be getting close. I
think Max has been on. I think he had spoken to David
earlier and that's probably where you got his name,
SO --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN:-- he's probably one of those guys
that had a conversation with him.
STEVE: Right. It's probably so.
Unidentified voices in background not
discernible.!
JOHN:Okay, they want to wait a few minutes,
I think is, is the way it looks like.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN:
when --
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:So let me just give you a buzz back
All right.
Okay?
I'll sort of stay by the phone here.
Okay. I appreciate it.
Sure.
Talk to you in a little bit.
Okay, bye.
Byebye.
._,-4O O
19
+ * * * 1
JOHN: Hello?
STEVE: Hello, John?
MAX: No, John has gone right now. This is
Max --
STEVE: Oh, yeah. Max, did you receive the
tape we did?
MAX: I believe that it's in the hands of
the, the people on the perimeter, you know, that picked
it up.
STEVE: Okay, but it did arrive there then?
MAX: It -- To my knowledge, it's not in this
building just right now --
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: - but I'm sure that it is on the way.
STEVE: The destination, is it the building
you're in there or no or --
MAX: Well, it's coming back here, but it
also has to be duped off, a copy.
STEVE: I'm sure.
MAX: something that we can use to play it
with.
STEVE: Surely. Okay.
MAX: So what I was going to do is give you a
call when we physically --
STEVE: All right.
-.....420
MAX: had it here and was able to look at
it.
STEVE: Okay. So if you, if you either want
to tell me when you have it or after you view it, it's
all fine.
MAX: Okay. Is everything else going okay in
there?
STEVE: Yeah, everything's here --
everythings going all right.
MAX: That's good. '
STEVE: So I'll just wait to hear from
then.you
MAX: All right. We, we will let you know
when we get it copied, have a chance to view it, and
then we will get back with you and have some comments
on it.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: How about the milk, was the milk
STEVE: The milk, was that okay then?
they're shaking their head yes.
MAX: Very good.
STEVE: They appreciate ic, they said,
much.
MAX: As long as it waited around here
we wanted to make sure it was good.okay?
Yes,
very
now,
STEVE: Okay. Well, we thank you for that.
~..-04Q O
21
MAX: Well, we appreciate your sending out
the video.
STEVE: Okay. And we'll wait to hear from
you then.
MAX: We'll talk to you in a few minutes.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: Bye-bye.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Oh, just --
What's that? Yeah, they -- Apparently, they must have
an eight millimeter. They're dubbing it onto probably
VHS or something.
STEVE: Okay, I'll talk to you later, Max.
MAX: Okay.
STEVE: Bye.
MAX: Bye.
i ~k '1' l *
_ STEVE: We've heard something about the
"Current Affair" program, that they were going to, I
guess, have David's mother on it, or did have? Are you
familiar? '
MAX: I've heard of the program. It's a
national program, is it not?
STEVE: I believe so. I'm just wondering
if -- We were told it was on tonight, but I, I don't
know what channel, what time, because, on the whole, we
don't usually bother with television.
M.
r
9222
MAX: Um-hum.
STEVE: Do you know anything about it or can
you get that information? I guess his mother's making
an appeal to him or something. '
MAX: I -- Seems like I saw something in the
paper about that. I passed a --
STEVE: Uh-huh.
MAX: -- a newspaper stand and saw something
about her, David's mother, but I did not read the
article. I didn't even buy the paper, I was so sleepy
STEVE: Is there anybody there that's
informed as to that or --
MAX: We can -- Somebody here is bound to
have a paper and we can get that information. We'll
make some calls to the TV people.
STEVE: All right.
MAX: Check that right out. I'm sure we can
get an answer on that real quick.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: And --
STEVE: It may have already even aired, I
don't know, or might be in the process. I wasn't
certain, so I'll just -- Can you give me a buzz back
then or --
MAX: Well, yes, let me do that.
STEVE: Okay, I'll just wait to --
92--vicertainly
somewhere,
we've got
I can.
myself. B
so --
whenever wMAX:I'll find out what I can. And
if it's passed, we'll --
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: Somebody may have kept a copy of it '
I don't know. We'll check and see what
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: -- and I'll get back to you as soon as23
STEVE: Otherwise, I'd just call the channels
ut, of course, you know, we can't call out,
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
6 SE8
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVEYeah.
Okay, I'll wait to hear from you
We'll find out and get --
Okay.
- back to you as soon as we do or
the tape, whichever is first.
Okay, thank you. Bye-bye.
All right, thank you. Bye-bye.
,* * * * *
Hello?
Steve?
Yes.
This is Max.
How's it going, Max?
92rv.--viQ
MAX:24
Doing fine.
STEVE: I suppose the shows been on and off
already, huh?
MAX:No, no, it -- In some parts of the '
county it has already aired, according to what the
local affiliatetells us. However, there are still two
opportunities, the best we can understand it.
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
station KDKF.
STEVE
that?
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
from here.
MAX:
Waco affiliate,
STEVE
MAX:Okay.
One of those will be at 9:30 p.m.
Tonight?
Tonight.
Uh-huh.
That's Fox Network carried by Dallas
Do you know the channel number on
Channel 33.
Channel 33?
Yeah.
I don't think we could receive that
All right. And then we have the local
Channel 25.
Channel 25 will have it at 9:30?
No, this is the next one, we're moving
on to the next possibility.
~._.4Q O
STEVE: Okay.25
MAX: Waco, Channel 25, 12:30 a.m., and
that'l1 be Tuesday morning, the next --
STEVE: Oh, tonight at 12 30.
MAX: Well, in the morning at 12:30.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: S0 --
STEVE: Got it.
MAX: Now, that's the way I understand it
now, reading these TV translations.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: And then from what the, the network
tell us -- I mean the local affiliate tell us, this is
what we have at this point.
STEVE: I see.
MAX: So you have two possibilities.
STEVE: Okay. Well, I appreciate that, Max.
David wants to say -- again he wants to thank you for
the milk.
MAX: All right. Well, he's certainly
welcome and I, I hope it does some good in there.
STEVE: Yeah, it seems to be doing that, all
right.
MAX: All right. And we appreciate your
sending out the, the video.
STEVE: Okay.
~.._.4MAX:. 26
Just a little update on that --
STEVE: All right.
MAX:
being duped.-- it is here in this building and
STEVE; Okay. So you haven't gotten to see
it yet then?
MAX:I haven't, no. There are some people
watching it as it's being transferred over from one
type of tape to
the building.
STEVE
MAX:
it first.
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
is?
STEVE
MAX:
STEVEanother, but that's in another part of
I see.
Some of the bosses are going to look at
Okay.
But I will get the results of it soon.
All right. And then get back to me.
Yerh. Hold on just a minute.
All right.
Do you have any idea how long this tape
I - It was about --
Is it all in one part, you know?
Yes, it's just one -- I just started
filming. It's continuous, right up through the --
Toward the end,
so it broke offsomeone stepped on the, the power cord,
for about maybe 10 seconds. But it's
a.-A27
about a 55-minute tape.
MAX: Fifty-five minutes.
STEVE: It's a 60, the tapes a 60, but we've
got about 55 minutes on it.
MAX: All right. Well, you know, there's
none such a thing, to my knowledge, as a high speed
video duper, so --
STEVE: To my knowledge, you're right.
MAX: It might be a while before I get to see
it.
STEVE: Okay. That's fine.
MAX: But somebody will have a, you know,
basic analysis of it soon.
STEVE: Right.
MAX: And we're in the process of doing that.
At, at the -- The longest break in it then may be 10
seconds or so?
O STEVE: Uh-huh.
MAX: All right. That's okay.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: S0 --
STEVE: Yeah, in fact, if at all. You can
tell. He just continued on talking and I had to
quickly plug the thing back in.
MAX: Okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
V-4O I
28
MAX: Does it have sound on it, also?
STEVE: Yes, both sound and --
MAX: An explanation as to what we're seeing?
STEVE: Exactly. "
MAX: That's great.
STEVE: Yeah. So I'll just wait for your
reaction and then we'll go from there.
MAX: Okay, very good.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: Thank you again.
STEVE: Sure. I'll be talking to you very
shortly.
MAX: Don't hesitate, don't hesitate to call
if there's something else.
STEVE: Okay. Very good, Max. Bye-bye.
MAX: Byebye.
iii-11-*
MAX: Hello?
STEVE: Hello, Max?
MAX: Yes.
STEVE: Yeah, I'm calling back because one of
the women here told me they were listening to the radio
- And now whether this is true or not, maybe you can
check it out, but they said that they just heard on the
radio that the FBI was saying that we have people like
in the tower and different places, making obscene
I ~Ȣi29
gestures, taunting those on the outside. There is no
truth to that whatsoever. None whatsoever. We don't
do those kind of things, number one. They went on to
say that, that David has done a lot of threatening.
David himself would have to talk to you about
whatever, you know, what has been stated to anybody.
You have it all recorded, anyway, to what he's ever
said.
MAX: I've heard most of it and tempers have
flared a little bit and maybe some things have been
said --
STEVE: That has happened, of course.
MAX: - that if we had to do over again we
wouldn't say, but I don't --
STEVE: Exactly.
MAX: -- believe it's gotten to the point
that that has been a problem.
STEVE: But I don't -- Yeah, where the
information is coming that the press is getting -
They're saying the FBI has said that we are giving
obscene gestures --
MAX: Well --
STEVE: -- we're taunting, we're doing things
of that nature.
MAX: I, I'm not aware of those --
STEVE: Okay.
~:...430
MAX: - broadcasts, so I can't say. I would
say --
STEVE: Right.
MAX: -- certainly I hope it's not in our -
character to, to spread false information like that.
STEVE: Well, I couldn't imagine. Yeah, I
couldn't imagine that that'd be so.
MAX: And it has not been reported from our
observers out there --
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: in here to us that there have been
any obscene gestures.
STEVE: They wanted to make sure you were
aware of it, anyway --
MAX: Okay.
STEVE: -- that what's being stated about,
you know, that these statements coming from your agency
there.
MAX: Well, please, as we do, place in
perspective what is seen on the media and heard on the
media.
STEVE: We, we have been doing that.
MAX: And you just can't ever place a lot of
faith in that --
STEVE: Right. '
MAX: - from either side --
92...¢1STEVE:
MAX:
STEVE:
MAX:
STEVE:
I mean, I will t
like that, I'll
MAX:
believe that.
STEVE:31
Well, this is true.
- until --
This is true.
-- it's totally been --
Just so you know yourself directly.
ell you. If someone does something
be the first to tell you it's so.
Um-hum. Well, I appreciate that, and I
Okay.
MAX: And, as I say, we here in this area,
from our intelli
reports of what
STEVE:
MAX:
would venture fr
floating around
STEVE:
then and I'll ju
the tape then.
MAX:
STEVE:
MAX:
STEVE:
MAX:
be over regulargence have not received any, any
you're saying -~
Okay.
-- the news media is reporting. So I
om that that it's another stray rumor
out there.
Okay. Okay, let's leave it there
st wait to hear from you in response to
Steve, just a second.
Okay.
I was given another note here.
Okay.
Channel 25 is a noncable, so it should
broadcast.
~...-4
telecast.
you much,
real weak
I talked with you I could hardly hear you
closer.STEVE: All right
MAX: 12:30 a.m.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: And David's mother Wlll be on that
STEVE: Okay, we'll, we'll turn --
MAX: From what the local statlon tells s
STEVE: We'll tune that 1n Well I thank
Max, for that.
MAX:
STEVE:
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE: Max, I can hardly hear you I s aAll right.
And I'll be talklng to you shortly
All right.
Okay. Bye-bye
Bye-bye.
* '1'
Hello?
Steve?
Yeah.
This is Max.
connection.
MAX: Oh. Well --
STEVE: I was going to tell you the last tlme
MAX: Well, let me get just a llttle bltii
~....433
STEVE: All right.
MAX:
STEVE: A little bit, but it's not the strong
signal as we've
MAX:Is that a little bit better?
had right along.
Mmmm, okay. Well, let's go with this.
If I need to talk a little louder, we'll --
STEVE: Okay.
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
how anybody can- I will.
You're a little better there now.
Okay.
Did you get to view it?
Sure did.
Okay.
That was quite a tape. I don't know
view that and not get the impression
that David really cares about that family and they are
a close-knit group.
STEVE: Um-hum.
MAX:There's a lot of love there.
STEVE: Yeah. I - Like you said, he knows
it's strange and different, but -- And there's no
question it's a Stumbling block, but if anybody
believes in that book called a Bible -- He never went
on to say how like Isaiah and a lot of -- If you're a
Christian, everybody says well, I believe in Isaiah.
You ask them why and they'll say well, because he's in
a...34
the Bible. And you turn them to Chapter 20 and it
shows how God required the man to run around naked for
three years. ~
day as a
And then
things.Well, no wonder no one accepted him in his
prophet. I wouldn't have in this generation.
you find out that Micah was -- had to do a few
And, I mean, one prophet after another. So, I
mean, the question is what's in that book? Why does
the last
remember
dreadful
of Mosesbook of the Old Testament, Malachi, say
ye the law of Moses before the great and
day of the Lord come? Well, what was the law
about? Well, Exodus 20 and 21 lays out
something that Christians fall over when they see it.
I must admit I did. I had to wrestle with it hard and
long.
MAX: Well, you're right, it is subject to a
lot of interpretation. And I hope, you know, as we
were talking a Iittle bit earlier about the - putting
the news report and the media in proper perspective,
that, you know, a lot of people viewing that are going
to have to stop and study it and try to, to use - be a
little bit flexible in their perspective in order to
understand, you know, where he's coming from and all
the relationships there that we might have seen in the
tape.
STEVE: Right.
as-nI
. I
35
MAX: So it is going to -- And while it is
very touching -- And we all agreed out here that, you
know, that this kind of redoubled our efforts to, to
see a peaceful conclusion to this thing. '
STEVE: Umhum. Well, I'm hoping, you know,
like to get him back -- get him on the phone with you
and you can work and see what happens, you know.
MAX: Well, I was very encouraged by so many
of the things that, that I heard him say.
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: And it means so much to be able to look
at somebody when they're saying something and see the
sincerity that --
STEVE: Well, he knows a lot of you guys,
like yourself and Harwell, are putting forth an effort
and, from your understanding, especially in a - I know
it's hard. It seems like you can do more at times, but
it's - To me the greatest, I guess the hang up right
now for any movement -- I mean, really, and it's
difficult, there's no question. And that's with him
and his experience with his God, when the God says to
him, you know, wait. And we're all sitting here
wondering what's going on, how long, and - And even
today I had some pretty -- I had a lot of questions for
him, okay, what's going on, what now, and how come, and
it came back to he says well, the same one that showed
~.....¢_ 7 ____7_ I
- 36
me the information that I gave to you.
And he says, you know, you can leave any time
you want. He says, but the same one that showed the
information that you think is there in the Bible that
you haven't been able to controvert or any of the
people that you've connected with, and said is the same
one that now tells me to wait. I mean, I've -- You
know, it's, it's a unique thing in this generation and
in the world that someone can go so deeply into
sciences. Well, he's not done that with the press or
anybody, but he gets into astronomy, physics, matter,
antimatter, breaks down molecules, gets into the
constellations, gets into sciences I've never heard
before, and I, I'm a person that's been schooled and
have pursued knowledge and information most of my life.
And when the guy gets into gemstones and, and
their laminations, passing laser and the power that
comes through the laser beam through these gems and why
and how, it's a mind blower. It's -- it is literally a
mind blower. Or when he gets into how the pyramids got
there and why they sit on sand, such a soft foundation,
when each block is made - It's so heavy and so much
tonnage and, of course, they fit so perfectly well.
Well, what were they there for in the first place?
Why'd they make them?
And we had a couple engineers around once and
~._-Q A I
37
he opened that up and, I tell you what, I'd never heard
anything like it in my life. But the sense, the logic
to it, and it's the same source of information that
tells him to wait, same source of information that when
I tried to rip him apart from every angle when I first
met him, as I'd done with almost every denomination, I
was not able to do it. In fact, it actually frustrated
me and annoyed me when I couldn't nail him to the wall.
And, on the other hand, when I'd hit him with so many
questions, what about this, what about that, he'd go
back and show me an answer, not give me an opinion or
theory.
Like you were saying, many interpretations,
but let's see a human being, let's see anybody with
asking a question go back in such a volume of chapters
and relate them and harmonize them. But, see, this is
the reason why I'm here. If it wasn't for that, I
would be long ago back in Hawaii, living my life, going
to the beach once or twice a week with my exercise
program and probably teaching. I mean, that's where
I'd be. I really loved Hawaii, I loved the people
there.
MAX: That sounds good to me right now.
STEVE: Well, it, it does. The truth of the
matter is every day I've got to go through that kind of
a battle, you know, the kernel, the fleshly versus the
~_._438
spiritual. Every day you get the urge to go back and,
and live that life. But it comes to an end. I mean,
for all of us. I mean, you might live -- be able to
live out your X number of years, I might myself, but
death comes to every man, every living creature on this
earth. This is a cemetery here. Why? What's going on
here? How do we get here? Is it evolution? Is it
creationism? How'd we get here? Where we going?
We're so complex. We
So is there an author
there saying have you
agree with me that it
Man's cried
the prophets say whenhear in stereo, we see in stereo.
of life? Is there someone out
human beings had enough, do you
doesn't work down there?
for peace for 6,000 years and all
man cries for peace in the final
days, sudden destruction comes. So are these
guys -- were they drunk? Were they eating pizza late
at night and had bad dreams and wrote them down, or is
there some reality to the words they speak? So, see,
these are the issues I've been wrestling with in the
past, especially six, seven years since meeting him.
And, you know, of course, you know, the lifestyle out
here, as you would hear, is not the most -- one of the
most delectable or desirable one would ever want.
MAX: Well, just like anything else is
subject to different interpretations. Everybody has
their own heaven and hell, you know. It's the same way
C.....439
with the assignments, the places that, that people are
asked to work during their life.
STEVE: This is true.
MAX: There are -- You know, many people
would dread being in downtown New York and many others
would dread being in downtown Waco.
STEVE: But, Max, is there a --
MAX: And many would feel the opposite, so --
STEVE: Right, but is there --
MAX: -- I think we're up to different styles
here.
STEVE: True.
MAX: But there's something that's got to
hold us all together. There's something that's got to
give us a -- towards - to march towards.
STEVE: Well, this is true, but some have --
In this world there's -- In my lifetime even I met very
few human beings that really care where they came from
or where they're going or the possibilities of an
eternal life. In other words, very few have a love for
-truth, whether it's in the spiritual realm, whether
it's political, whether it's health, anatomy of the
body, what makes you tick. I've been one of those kind
of people that -- I'm interested in how come disease
happens, where does cancer come from, what you eat you
are, I've heard.
»..-AQ I
40
And I have found through a lot of studying
that when one eats a very wholesome diet and so forth,
you're free of a lot of the diseases that others get,
and that's logical to me. You can't just put anything
you want in the carburetor of an automobile and expect
it to perform. Well, the human body's the same. Well,
in the political sphere all my life I've wondered well,
why is it the way it is and how come no matter who gets
into office it basically progressively degenerates, it
seems, the society.
You look at the spiritual realm, there's a
lot of people making money off of a book called the
Bible, but yet they can't answer the most stringent or
the most simple questions in relation to all these
prophets, or even the apostles.
MAX: On the questions, that reminds me --
And pardon me for interrupting.
STEVE: Oh, no, no problem.
MAX: But it's getting a little bit late
and --
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: -- I know that you all want to watch
some TV later.
STEVE: Right.
MAX: And we have had a request in here, I
believe it was Dick --
,_....¢STEVE: Okay.
MAX:-- yesterday morning -- Time gets away
from us, you know.
STEVE: Oh, with me, also. I mean, I, I'm
losing total track.
MAX:It's like being in orbit somewhere.
STEVE: Right.
MAX:Anyway, Julie Martinez --
STEVE: Martinez.
MAX: Martinez.
STEVE: Right.
MAX:-- had asked us to see if we could
contact her brother Joe --
available
for her.STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
there
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVEOkay.
-- from New Mexico.
Were you able to do it?
We did have someone spoke with him.
Okay.
It was not me, but if she is still
Sure.
-- we do have a message back from him
Okay.
We'd certainly like to speak with her
Okay, hang on a minute. Let me go
92...¢I
42
try to find-her. Just a moment.
Unidentified voices in background not
discernible.!
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
tape, were they
STEVE
There was
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVEnow. '
MAX:
JULIE
MAX:
JULIE
MAX:
JULIE
MAX:Still checking all over for her.
Okay, thank you.
Yeah.
I think two of her children were on the
not?
Let me think. Yeah, they were.
a Joseph, I believe, and a Isaiah.
Yeah.
And, in fact, a third one, Crystal.
Yeah.
Yeah, three of those were hers.
One of those he called Taco?
Right.
Yeah.
A nickname, yeah. Here's Julie right
Okay, thank you.
Hello?
Hello, Julie?
Yes.
My name is Max. How are you tonight?
I'm fine.
I hope I didn't wake you up.
L.-443
JULIE: NO.
MAX: We got to talking and time got away
from us a little bit. And we were also reviewing a
videotape out here in which a couple of your beautiful
children were shown to us.
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: You should be very proud of them.
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: You had asked Dick to, to see if we
could not contact your brother Joe in Arizona.
JULIE: Yeah. .
MAX: I wasn't one of those that spoke with
him, but we did have someone go out. I'm sure -- I
know it was one of the female FBI agents that talked
with him.
JULIE: Yeah?
MAX: And in doing so, he asked if he
couldn't send a message back to you and we said that
that would be okay with us. So he made a tape.
JULIE: Oh, he did? '
MAX: Yes. And I have it here, and while the
connection may not be the best in the world, if you are
comfortable and in a position such as you can hear it,
it's about a minute-and-ahalf long, we'll play it for
you.
JULIE: Okay, thank you.
~....-4Q I
44
MAX: Okay, hold on. It'll take just a
second. The other voice you hear on here will be that
of the female agent, I think at the beginning and at
the very end. I
JULIE: Okay.
MAX: Just hold on and listen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AGENT: Okay,
whenever you're ready you go ahead.
JOE: Hi, Julie. This is Joe, your
brother. Julie, I've been trying for a long time
now to get a hold of you. I'm really worried for
you and your kids and everybody down there. I
want -- I know that you want your kids to be out
of there and I'm here to tell you that I will be
there for them and I'll take care of them for you.
But it's best that you come out with them, Julie.
With these threats that Vernon, you know,
threatening war against federal agents out there,
that is suicide.
And if you stay there, I'm afraid
something's going to happen to you. You're going
to get hurt. You are no good to those kids dead
and they need you. I can't raise five kids,
Julie. Don't put me in that situation. I can't
do it. But I will take care of them for you as
long as -~ Come out with them. You're going to
._...445
have probably have some legal problems at
first, but once they find out you had nothing to
do with the shooting, cause I know you didn't, I
know that you haven't done anything wrong, I know
you, they'll let you go.
You can come back here to Arizona.
I'll, I'll, I'll help you, Julie, you know I will.
I love those kids. I don't want anything to
happen to them, but they need you, too. They need
you. You need to come out with them. Your civil
rights are not going to be violated. Everything
will be -- Everything will turn out just fine,
Julie. Just come out and I'll help you. We'll
take care of things. The worst thing you can do
is stay there and get shot, okay? Please, Julie,
everybody's worried about you. Everybody.
I've been getting calls from - even
from Mexico, people worried about you. I can't
sleep at night, Julie. Let's end this now, okay?
Peacefully and -- start your life over here in
Arizona with me. Nobody's there to attack your
religion. You can practice whatever religion you
want, you can worship your God any way that you
want. Nobody is attacking that. The only reason
those federal agents went out there is because of
all the weapons that are in there, not because
,446
they're attacking your religion. So, please,
let's just end this. Please. That's all.
D UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE AGENT: Okay.
Mr. Santaro, thank you so much.
MAX: Julie?
JULIE: Yeah?
MAX: That was the end of the tape. Did you
hear it okay?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: That was your brother, you agree?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Okay. What do you think about what he
said? Did he sound serious?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Did he sound like he cared for you?
JULIE: Uh-huh.
MAX: Do you want to come out and do as he
asked?
JULIE: I don't know.
MAX: Well, I remember you mentioning the
other day that you needed Joe's permission to make the
decision and I think you have it now. Would you like
to come out? It's very easy and I will guarantee your
safety.
JULIE: If I go out, you guys will put me in
prison.
92...447
MAX: Did you hear what Joe said?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: And that's very true. You might have
some legal problems at first. There will be some legal
questions that have to be answered. I don't know what
you did in there. I can't answer that question. But
if you did not do anything to harm anyone, then you
have nothing to fear from the legal system. It is a
fair system.
JULIE: I already told them that my room was -
right above the door and all I had was trying to get
my children drop onto --
MAX: Then you have nothing to worry about.
JULIE: -- the floor.
MAX: Then you have nothing to worry about.
If you can just get yourself and your children out of
there and what you say is true, you have nothing to
worry about. But the longer you stay in there, the
greater the chances are that something will happen in
which you might become involved and might make the
safety issue more critical and might put you in a
position of possibly having more legal problems because
of what might happen. Apparently, there hasn't been
enough happen to this point for you to be -- for you to
have any major legal difficulties.
JULIE: The old ladies that went out are
»...-1having difficulty.'48
MAX: Did you hear the end of that? That
those charges have been dropped?
JULIE: Yeah, but there's a lot of lies on"
the radio, too, about us.
MAX: You're right, there are. And if you
can come out and tell somebody your side of it --
therell
There'll
probably
what you
heard byJULIE: Nobody will want to hear me.
MAX: Yes, they will. I will guarantee you
be lots of microphones stuck in your face.
be lots of people wanting to know your side,
more than you want to address at one time. So
have to say will be very
lots of people. And you
legal assistance. You will be --
system, it requires that you haveimportant, will be
will be able to get
You know this legal
a lawyer and before
you make any statements, and you will be represented.
us, and we saw it again on theDavid, Steve, and everybody in there has told
that everyone in there is free to
they wish. And you have Joe's
you havetape that he sent out,
come out whenever
permission to do it and
my guarantee that you will be safe. And you
have the guarantee of our government that your legal
concerns will be addressed fairly. How many more
guarantees do you need to come out and guarantee the
safety and unity of your family? It's very simple,
.___.4Julie.
End of Tape 93.!
~....-4U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #94
3/8/93
10:47 P.M. 11:34 P.M.
. 92 ..¢n2
Tape 94! D
MAX: -- now. You need to bring the children
with you. As Joe was saying on the tape, he doesn't
want the responsibility. I mean, he will do it.
JULIE: But'some of them don't want to go and
I can't --
MAX: I'm sorry, I didn't understand.
JULIE: My daughters don't want to go.
MAX: Your daughters don't want to go?
JULIE: NO.
MAX: _How old are they?
JULIE: Thirteen and --
MAX: Julie, do they really know the world as
1
well as you do? Do they really know dangers as well as
you do? I think at that age you, as a mother, know
what is best for them. »When you were 13 years of age,
and even a few years older, I think you can look back
now and see you didn't have all the answers and you
didn't read all the people about you properly.
JULIE: The what?
MAX: I think at that age you and I didn't
have all the answers and couldn't read all the people,
couldn't understand all the problems around us
properly, and we had to have adults help us make
decisions. And those adults that helped you make
decisions were your parents and your family. And
»...-a3
they're there to help you now on the outside and you
have to bring your children with you and do the right
thing for them, even though they may be influenced a
little bit to stay there.
It's -- We know it's not the right thing in
the long run. Your brother said he loved you and he
cared for you and he just pleaded for you to come out.
You said you placed a lot of faith in what he told you.
And you'll have the support of the family in Arizona
and Mexico. Remember, he said you were getting calls
from Mexico. People down there are concerned, people
willing to pitch in and do what was necessary to see
you through this. And if you're thinking those -- that
your only family is in there --
JULIE: My mother's here, too.
MAX: Sure. In there?
JULIE: Yeah.
. MAX: You bring her out, too.
JULIE: She don't want to.
MAX: I'm sure they are concerned about her.
Well, your mother may be old enough to decide for
herself, but right now you need to make a decision that
is best for you and your five children. And you've had
Joe to help you. You said that was the thing that you
needed. Now you know how Joe stands. Julie, come out
with your children, where you know it's going to be
M...I C
4
safe. You don't know what -- how safe it's going to be
in there.
I was moved by the emotion and the, the pain
and the concern I heard in Joe's voice, and I know '
that, that you being his brother -- or his sister --
were certainly moved by it. I don't know what more you
need to hear, Julie. Come out. Bring the children to
safety now. You're the one that's ultimately going to
be responsible for yourself and for those children.
Why wait until the situation may get worse? Come out
now while you still can walk directly into full safety.
JULIE: How can I believe anything you say?
Everything that's on the radio is lies, too.
MAX: I didn't say everything was. I said
some As Steve and I were talking earlier, you have
to put those things in perspective and you have to use
good common sense and look around and, and hear
different points of view and then make your own
evaluation about it.
JULIE: You know, all they're doing is
getting ready to, you know, getting the public ready to
come and, and, and do away with us. They're telling us
that - saying that we're provoking you.
MAX: Do you trust your brother?
JULIE: I'm telling you what I heard on the
radio, what I'm hearing on the radio all day.
=..-Q5
MAX; Im_reminding you of what I heard and
you heard on the tape. Your brother said that he
trusted us and you to do the right thing. He said
that, that we would not violate your civil rights and
we would --
JULIE: Yeah, he could say that. But he
doesn't know what's going on.
MAX: Are you sure you know all of what's
going on, Julie?
JULIE: Well, I know what's going on here and
I all I can do is just hear the radio what's going on
out there. And what they're saying is a bunch of lies.
MAX: That's a very small part of the whole
world that you have in there. I don't know that, you
know, you can really say that you know all of what's
going on. I see a lot of what's going on out here,
too, and I see potential problems and I see weapons,
and I'm sure you do in there, too. All these things
are not good. They are not a good surrounding for you
or your children.
JULIE: Well, you know, why did they come
and, and do this to us, in the first place?
MAX: Well --
JULIE: We weren't bothering anybody.
MAX: Did you see the tape that David sent
out? He said that we would have to resolve this thing
._._46
and work it out and then see who was at fault, that
there would be some investigation to determine who was
at fault. And that will be done. That's part of the
system. '
JULIE: Nobody could beat the, the
government.
MAX: Wait. With all the media that's
watching -- The world is watching this via satellite,
you know. How could the government, the ATF, the FBI,
anybody now with all this spotlight shining on us do
anything improper to you or anyone else?
JULIE: They're going to do it.
MAX: No, nothing improper, nothing illegal.
JULIE: Yeah, they're going to come and get
rid of us all.
MAX: Get rid of you? Why would we want to
do that? Why would we want to harm you?
JULIE: Because that's what they, that's what
they came over here in the first place. You know, they
came shooting at us and climbing all in our windows and
everything. You know, this is our home. I mean, what
would you do if, if you'd have a bunch of men with guns
climbing all over your house and climbing in the
windows and, and, you know, shooting at you?
MAX: Okay.
JULIE: What would you do?
»_....¢7
MAX: I understand your fear, I understand
it. There was some lack of communication. There were
some things done that shouldn't have been done. That
was - That's over a week ago. What has happened in'
the last week? What has happened since then? You've
seen nothing. You've looked around and you've seen
nothing but, but quiet. And nobody has been hurt,
nobody has been threatened. Nothing has happened since
then, since the cease fire was called. And that's what
we're in this for and that's what we're doing.
JULIE: They're saying, they're saying that
we'll be treated fairly. Fairly in whose eyes? I
mean, if we go out --
MAX: In the eyes of the world, in the eyes
of the media.
JULIE: If we go out, we're going to, we're
going to have to go to jail. What about the ATF? You
know, they're the ones that came shooting at us and
they're free. So is that what you call free and, you
know, fairly? We're going to have to go out and go to
jail, not - and they'll be free.
MAX: We don't know, nobody knows that you're
going to have to go to jail. We went through that a
little earlier and you said you didn't do anything.
And if you did not do anything, then there will not be
any charges filed against you. That's not the way it
,....4works, especially not with the world watching, with the
media watching.I I
8
JULIE: Well, the media is not watching.
They won't let them.
MAX: Look, everybody
concerned. Everybody knows the
that are in there and they will
and the results of what happens
media. And there is no --
JULIE: Only what the
MAX: No, no, no. No Icares. Everybody's
names of the people
be covered by the media
will be covered by the
FBI wants them to see.
no, no. We're talking
about the courts, the justice system.
JULIE: .There's no justice.
MAX: That is now even televised in many
places. I don't have any say over what happens to you
after you walk out of there.
JULIE: Exactly. So why do, you know, you
have no say, so, I mean, how -- why should I go out by
what you say? And then I go out and they're going to
do whatever they want with me. They're going to put me
in prison and throw away the key.
MAX: That won't happen. I'm saying that I,
as part of the FBI, will not have any ruling on your
legal situation once you've come out. That will be
handled by a court of law, a judge, not the FBI, not
the ATP. Now, we could go on and on about the legal
._.-4O O
9
system all night long. You asked us to play -- to, to
contact your brother. You said you needed --
JULIE: I wanted to talk to him.
MAX: -- your brother to help you make a
decision. We did what we could do. We reached out and
we got his opinion, we got his very words for you and
we brought them to you. And he said Julie, for the
sake of your children, for your own sake and for the
caring of your family, here and in Mexico, come out,
come out and raise your family. And now you're not
listening to that recommendation. What more can I do,
Julie? What more can any of us do? You said that you
wanted to leave yesterday and now it sounds like to me
JULIE: I didn't say that.
MAX: Yes --
JULIE: See, that's why I know that they're
lying on the radio 'cause I didn't say that. I told --
MAX: I heard most of your conversation with
Dick yesterday. And I know that was --
JULIE: Well, I didn't say I wanted to leave.
I said that if I would go out they would throw me in
prison.
MAX: Julie, I got you the response that you
wanted, the clue that you wanted from yesterday, and
that is Joe. Now, I wonder if I'm talking to you or if
d.-4O O
l0
I'm talking to someone in the background. If you want
to come out of there, you can. If someone is keeping
you from doing it, if someone is arguing with me
through you, then let's end this. It's not doing
either one of us any good. But if you want to come out
of there, you've had all the assurances that you've
asked for and more. It is your responsibility to you
and your children and your relatives to do that, to
come on out. Will you do it? Is someone giving you
things to say to me? Or is everything you said came *
from your heart?
JULIE: No verbal response.!
MAX: Julie, are you there?
JULIE: Yeah. l
MAX: Are you speaking for yourself or is
someone speaking for you?
JULIE: I'm speaking for myself.
MAX: If I didn't hear the whispers, that
would be much easier to believe.
Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.!
MAX: Julie?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: I'm talking to you and I expect that
you should respond to me. When I'm talking to Julie,
I'm saying Julie, do what your brother, do what the
=--.4O O
ll
rest of your family knows is best for you and your
children. And, Julie, do what you know is best, and
that is come out. Come out where I and the FBI and the
courts and the media and the whole world can hear your
side of what has happened and see that justice is done
for you. You will not be ignored, for sure. Come out
to safety. What more can I do, Julie? Tell me and
I'll do it.
I saw that film, I saw your children.
They're beautiful and I would not want to see them
neglected or any way and I would not want to, to see
them harmed in any way.
JULIE: Well, they're over there treating the
other children that went out like if there's some, you
know ~-
MAX: You saw the -- -
_ JULIE: -- they're weird or something, like
there's something wrong with them. They're not normal.
MAX: No, those children are together and I
-- If you've seen the tape --
JULIE: Yeah, but they say that they're
not -- That's what they're saying on the radio, that,
you know, there's something wrong with them because,
you know, they're so well-behaved.
MAX: You know the biggest thing that's wrong
right now? They don't have their parents.
~...412
JULIE: Yeah, you guys took them from their
home.
MAX: David is the one that has split that
home. You have an opportunity to come out with all of
your children, be together with them in a safe
atmosphere.
JULIE: David has been good to them.
MAX: I'm not going to, to argue that. It
seemed like from what I saw that he has been good to
them._
JULIE: He has, and the kids love him.
MAX: What response do you want me to give
your brother now? We'll talk to Joe again and what
shall I tell him? What's your answer?
JULIE: I love him.
MAX: Uh-huh, and what else? That you are
not going to do as he wishes or the family wishes?
JULIE: My mother is here.
MAX: I understand your mother is there.
Anything else I should tell Joe? Come on, what were
you going to say? Please finish. Please finish what
you were going to say.
JULIE: I don't know.
MAX: We'll relay back to him any message
that you want. What assurances do you need?
JULIE: No verbal response.!
~--vi13
MAX: What assurances do you need? You seem
concerned about your safety.
JULIE: Well, see, when I was out there, I
mean, you know, before I came over here, I didn't come
over here because I wanted religion or anything. I
was, you know, I was all, you know, strung out and
everything and this is where they helped me.
MAX: We want to help you, too. And, and we
can only help you if you tell us how. Please tell us
what we can do to help. We don't think that the best
future for you and your children is in there,
especially with what's going on right now. Neither
does Joe. So, please tell us how we can help you and
how Joe can help you right now.
JULIE: I guess now the only one that could
help is God.
p MAX: Well, I believe lots of people have
been asking for his guidance and assistance in this and
that will continue. And maybe if we all listen closely
enough we'll hear our own individual answer that will
help us resolve this. But for now, what can we do and
what can you do?
JULIE: I don't know.
MAX: Do you believe that it's - there's
some danger in leaving there, that, that you have a
security in there that you would not have out here?
.
~_
I
92mi14
JULIE: Yes.
MAX: Well, I can guarantee that's not true.
And I think you heard that in Joe's voice, too, his
concern.
JULIE: I don't trust the government.
MAX: Do you trust Joe? Would Joe lead you
astray? Would Joe give you bad advice?
JULIE: Yeah, but Joe won't have nothing to
do with it, no say so in it. Once I go and fall in you
guys hands, that's it.
MAX: No, it's not a matter of falling in
anybody's hands, it's a matter to walking to the safety
of the free world. ,
JULIE: Free world?
MAX: And the justice system and the media.
JULIE: This is no free world.
MAX: It's going to be broadcast -
JULIE: Look at what they did to us.
MAX: -- to the world if you're willing to
tell it. Come out and tell your story.
JULIE: You won't let me. This is no free
world. They won't let me tell me my story.
MAX: I told you, as soon as you walk out, I
will guarantee that there will be microphones thrust in
your face and people wanting to pay you money to put
your story on TV and newspaper articles and everything
.__.-4~ 15
else. You'll have plenty of opportunities to tell your
story. And you'll have an attorney that will represent
you and make sure that you --
JULIE: Yeah, and I leave and then what, what
happens to my friends here? They all get killed. I go
out there to tell my story and what about my friends?
I love them. .
MAX: They should all come out, also.
JULIE: Yeah, what for? So they could put us
all in jail and throw away the key?
MAX: That's not going to happen, Julie, you
know that. That is not going to happen.
JULIE: Well, you could say that, but what,
you know, or the judge and all. I mean, this is the
government we're, we're, we're -- we'd be fighting
against. We have no chance.
g MAX: It's our government, it's yours as much
as mine, and we all are guaranteed equal treatment by a
-- You will have every opportunity, every one, to tell
your story. You will have other people that will help
you tell your story. And there is no reason that I can
think of, Julie, that you shouldn't listen to Joe's
advice and come out of there.
JULIE: I could see where my brother would be
so worried and concerned.
MAX: Why is that?
~.....¢16
JULIE: Well, because he loves me.
MAX: Well, I'm glad that you said that. Do
you, do you love him?
JULIE: Yes.
MAX: And you love your children, I know.
JULIE: Of course.
MAX: Of course. Do you think that he's not
concerned about your safety?
JULIE: I wouldn't be here if I didn't love
them.
MAX: Okay, I know. I know that
was just trying to make a point
love in that family, and I know
JULIE: I'd be strung
didn't love them, but because Ithat there
there is.
out on the
love them,you did. I
is a lot of
And --
streets if I
I'm here.
And then have the government come and do this. I mean,
what could, you know, what could I expect out there?
Nobodys going to want to listen to me, somebody
that's, you know, been on the street.
MAX: Have you ever been involved in the
court system or the justice system, Julie, in this
country?
JULIE: I've had problems with the police
harassing me.
MAX: Have you ever been through a trial or
watched a trial or saw how that system works?
.4- 7
l7
JULIE: Yes.
MAX: Tell me about it.
JULIE: Well, it wasn't nothing major. I
mean, it was, it was --
MAX: How did it turn out?
JULIE: Well, I got off because it was my
first offense.
MAX: You got off because it was your first
offense. Now, doesn't that tell you --
JULIE: And it was --
MAX: -- a little something about the justice
system?
JULIE: It was a, it was nothing really.
MAX: Okay. Then doesn't tell you that if
you haven't done anything in this justice system that
it's going to turn out all right?
T JULIE: No. I can't --
MAX: I don't know what better, you know,
impression than you can have than to have been through
the system and it treated you fairly.
JULIE: I got beat up by some cop, too. I
mean, how -- what could I expect?
MAX: Well, that's not the justice system --
JULIE: And my old man used to get beat up by
the cops all the time, too.
MAX: That's not the justice system we're
e.-418
talking about, the United States, the federal system.
That is much more structured and much more advanced
than any of the state systems, okay?
JULIE: Yeah, and they could pay off anybody
they need to pay offhand get their own way.
MAX: Julie, I think you're parroting some of
the things that you've heard. I don't believe that you
really believe that.
JULIE: The FBI is going to be, you know,
getting out of this one smelling like roses.
MAX: Well, if -- only if people come out of
there and not get hurt. If somebody in there gets
hurt, then nobodys going to be smelling like roses.
And so that's why we're working and working and doing
everything that we can for this past what, going on
eight, nine days now, to make sure that nobody else
gets hurt.
JULIE; No, we don't want no one to get hurt.
MAX: We don't want anyone to get hurt,
either. Let me -- Tell you what, let me play this tape
for you again and you listen, you listen closely to
what is said. And if you can, you know, really believe
that there is a lack of sincerity in this and that this
man really loves you and is really concerned about you
and your children, and would you listen to me?
JULIE: What?
~....a
Fl9
MAX: I don't know who else you're trying to
carry on a conversation with, but I'd appreciate it if
you'd listen to me, okay?
JULIE: My mom is right here.
MAX: Well, let her listen to the tape, too.
Would you do that?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Okay, both of you listen to it
together.
JULIE: Well, that's kind of - that would be
impossible. I mean, I'd have to let her --
MAX: I'll -- Well, let your mother listen to
it alone then. You've heard it once, let's play it
once for your mother. You want to put her on the phone
with me first?
JULIE: Just a minute.
MAX: What's her name, Julie.
JULIE: Just a minute.
[gap]
OPHELIA: Hello? Hello?
MAX: Hello. Hello, my name is Max. Who's
this? Hello?
OPHELIA: I can hardly hear you.
MAX: Could you have ~- Could I have your
name, please? My name is Max.
OPHELIA: Yeah, this is Ophelia.
N.-4
He wanted
all theseMAX: Sophelia?
OPHELIA: Ophelia.
MAX: Ophelia. Are you Julie's mother?
OPHELIA: Yes, I am.
MAX: Would~you listen to a tape from Joe?
me to play this tape for you. Listen to it
OPHELIA: From my son? My son?
MAX: Yes.
OPHELIA: Yes.
MAX: Listen closely.
OPHELIA: Okay.
The tape was played again.!
MAX: Ophelia?
OPHELIA: Yes?
MAX: Does that sound like your son Joe?
OPHELIA: Yes.
MAX: Do you believe what he said?
OPHELIA: Yeah, I believe it.
MAX: Do you want to come out?
OPHELIA: N0.
MAX: Why?
OPHELIA: Because my son doesn't understand
things, you know.
MAX: What things --
OPHELIA: Well --
MAX: -- doesn't he understand?
M...21
OPHELIA: He doesn't understand what we're
going through, really. But, but I know -- And I, I
believe my place is here.
MAX: Do you --
OPHELIA: There's no other place for me to
go.
MAX: Do you understand all the things that
are going on right now?
OPHELIA: Yes, I do.
MAX: Can you tell me what is going on right
now that he needs to understand?
OPHELIA: That who needs to understand?
MAX: That Joe and all of us need to
understand.
OPHELIA: Yes.
MAX: Tell me.
OPHELIA: I can't tell you.
MAX: Tell me, please.
OPHELIA: Okay. I don't know why you guys
don't understand and don't -- they don't -- you don't,
you don't understand that God is directed by God.
Can't you understand that? Did you -- Did he study the
Bible with you guys?
MAX: We've had a lot of Bible studies.
OPHELIA: Yes, I --
MAX: But that doesn't explain to me why
5- Q O
22
you're in there and refusing to come out.
OPHELIA: Don't you understand it's God who
is directing David? I believe it, that's why I don't
want to go with -- away.
MAX: What do you think's going to happen in
the next few days?
OPHELIA: I don't care.
MAX: What do you believe is going to happen?
OPHELIA: What? You guys are going to kill
us.
MAX: No, no, that's not true. That is not
true. Now, what else do you believe is going to
happen?
OPHELIA: That's all.
MAX: That is not going to happen. The world
is watching.
OPHELIA: I know it.
MAX: Through TV cameras, through satellites
OPHELIA: I know it. y
MAX: -- to every way in the world. The
world is watching.
OPHELIA: I know it, but you guys are
fighting against God.
MAX: The world --
OPHELIA: And there's no way that you'll be
M...23
the winner. i u
MAX: Well, there's no way you're going to be
a winner if you stay in there and not come out to a
safe area.
OPHELIA: This is my safe area, my safe area.
I consider this my safe area.
MAX: How long have you been in there,
Ophelia?
OPHELIA: Where?
MAX: In Mount Carmel?
OPHELIA: Oh, I've been here about -- more
than five years, about six years.
MAX: I see. And how long has your daughter
been in there?
OPHELIA: Well, she's been here about maybe
two years, three years. Three years, Julie, you've
been here, huh? Almost three years.
MAX: Okay. Do you, do you believe what Joe
said? Do you believe that he knows that your safety is
best out here --
OPHELIA: Yes, but he doesn't know what he's
talking about. He doesn't know anything about this.
He never has studied. He doesn't know the seals.
MAX: Okay.
OPHELIA: You guys do, don't you?
MAX: Oh, I think ~-
~--4
24
OPHELIA: So you're not innocent.
MAX: I think we know -
OPHELIA: No, you're not innocent. You're
guilty. l
MAX: Not innocent?
OPHELIA: Since, since the moment that you
started studying the seven seals you are guilty.
MAX: Well, I heard the other night that
learning the seals was going to save everybody and --
OPHELIA: I beg your pardon?
MAX: I thought I heard someone say the other
night that learning the seals would save everybody, and
you're telling me because we're into the seals we're
guilty? You see, I don't understand. It's not always
the same, the way I hear it.
OPHELIA: No, it's you that you turn things
around.
MAX: Well --
OPHELIA: Other way around.
MAX: Well --
OPHELIA: You really like to lie, don't you?
MAX: No, I don't lie at all.
OPHELIA: Yes, I notice that, 'cause I've
been here listening to the conferences you have had
with Steve and David.
MAX: Um-hum.
_-anG O
, 25
OPHELIA: And I know what's going, what's A
going on.
MAX: Well, you know what's going on in
there, I'm sure, a lot better than we do, but we have
tried the best way that we can to give you and Julie
and the children, her children, every opportunity and
chance in the world to come out of there as requested
by your caring family, and the rest of us out here who
want to see this situation resolved as soon as possible
and as safely as possible. And I don't know what more
we can say, you know.
If you, you know, won't come out on anybodys
advice, then why don't you let me talk back to, to
Julie for a minute?
OPHELIA: Sure.
[sap]
MAX: Hello? Hello?
OPHELIA: Max?
MAX: Yes.
OPHELIA: This is, this is Ophelia again.
MAX: Okay. I
OPHELIA: I wanted to tell you --
MAX: Okay.
OPHELIA: -- do you believe that Moses and
Noah were directed by God?
MAX: Most of what?I
92
92
viOPHELIA:
MAX: Oh, I don't want to get into that with
you, Opehlia.
OPHELIA:
MAX: IS
OPHELIA:
directed by --
MAX: __
OPHELIA:
MAX: IS
me?
OPHELIA:Moses and Noah.
Okay.
someone, is someone
The same way David
telling you what to
Yeah, is --
someone telling you
No way.is being
say to me?
what to say to
MAX:' They just might as well get on the
phone --
OPHELIA: No. I, I wanted --
MAX: -- with me if that's the way it is.
OPHELIA: I wanted to tell you when I was
talking to you, out then you, you interrupt and, and
I forgot.
MAX: Okay.
OPHELIA: But then when I was handing the
phone to Julie, I remember and I, I didn't, I didn't
want to go away without telling you this.
MAX: All right.
OPHELIA:
MAX: Tell me quickly. Tell me quickly andDo you believe --
~..-427
then --
OPHELIA: Okay, do you believe that Noah and
Moses were directed by God?
MAX: Oh, I suppose so.
OPHELIA: Okay, the same way David is, okay?
The same way.
MAX: I don't know about that.
OPHELIA: Well, you --
MAX: I don't know that --
OPHELIA: Well, you shall wait and see.
MAX: -- Moses, I don't know that Moses took
up machine guns against people.
OPHELIA: Well, this is we're living in
different times, you know. A
MAX: Yes, we are.
OPHELIA: Yes.
MAX: Let me talk to Julie, please.
OPHELIA: They, they, they used to use spears
and swords in that time.
MAX: Um-hum.
OPHELIA: But we don't live in that time of
Moses, you know.
MAX: That's right.
OPHELIA: Okay. I wanted to tell you that,
so that's all. You want to talk to Julie now?
MAX: Yeah, I do.
..-428
JULIE: Hello? Hello?
MAX: Hi, Julie.
JULIE: Yeah?
MAX: It's Max again.
JULIE: Yeah?
MAX: Did you hear, overhear while your
mother was listening to the tape? Did you hear it
again?
JULIE: No.
MAX: Well, do you want me to play it again
for you?
JULIE: I wanted to ask you something. What
happened to my grandmother?
MAX: Your grandmother?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Who is your grandmother?
JULIE: It's Concepcion Acona phonetic sp.!
MAX: I'm writing this down.
JULIE: Huh?
MAX: I don't know who she is. Tell me who
and where she is.
JULIE: Well, she's, you know, she lives in
town.
MAX: In Waco?
JULIE: Yeah. And I want to know what
happened to her, what, what, you know, I want my, you
Adknow, I want --29
MAX: Well, come out and maybe we can find
her together.
JULIE: I want to tell her -- That's one of
the messages I wanted-to get to my brother, is to look
after her.
MAX: She was living in there with you and
she's in town now? I don't understand. Please explain
it to me, Julie
JULIE; Well, she was living here for, you
know, some time before, but, you know, she hasn't been
staying here since. But she lives in town and I don't
know if -- I heard, you know --
MAX: When did she move out of the compound
and into town?
u JULIE
exactly.
MAX:
JULIE
MAX:
JULIE
it or not.
MAX:
information, we
know --
JULIEI don't know. I can't remember
Do you know her address?
No.
Phone
No.
Well,
would
Oh,number?
I, I, I don't know if
if we had a little bit
sure look into it, but
you guys will probablymy mom has
of
I don't
BIJCESC
......430
her, too.
MAX: I don't believe we'll do that, Julie,
and I don't believe you believe that, either. I'll
just forget that you said that, because it's not true.
You seem a little bit confused. Is there something I
can do to clarify things for you? Do you have a
question or questions? ~
JULIE: I just don't -- I'm just, you know, I
just don't know what you guys will do next, you know.
MAX: I'm telling you we won't do anything
next. We're not going to do anything that might hurt
you or anyone else in there.
JULIE: No, you guys will just run your tanks
through the building and, and, you know, hurt us all
and --
MAX: We're going to keep talking with you
until you come out to safety.
JULIE: Well, that's not what they said on
the radio today..
MAX: What do you hear on the radio?
JULIE: That, that they were going to get
this, get this over with this week.
MAX: No, I don't believe that anyone has
said that.
JULIE: Yes, they did. They said that on the
radio.
~..-4' 31
MAX: Well, we're all hoping that it will be
over this week, but I don't think anyone is going to
push the issue to make it end this week, unless it's
David. We are not.
JULIE: You know, all those tanks going
around here like, you know, and scaring the kids.
MAX: Well, you've been shooting at people
from in there, too, so --
JULIE: They shot at us.
MAX: We have to be prepared. We have to be
prepared.
JULIE: They shot at us. We haven't shot at
anybody. Nobody here has --
MAX: Let's not get into that. That happened
over a week ago. Has there been any shooting in the
last week?
JULIE: No, there hasn't.
MAX: NO. A
JULIE: You just said there was.
MAX: No, because we are all concerned about
safety
JULIE: Yes.
MAX: -- and we're all keeping our heads and
we're all trying to resolve this issue through
communications and conversation. Have the tanks hurt
anybody yet?
._.-432
JULIE: Yet. l
MAX: NO.
JULIE: No.
MAX: NO.
JULIE: Yet;
' MAX: Well, there's nothing to be afraid of.
JULIE: Then they say on the radio that they
don't have the guns or anything. They do. Why, why
are they hiding that?
MAX: What -- Guns on what?
JULIE: On the tanks.
MAX: On the tanks? Those are mounts where
guns are supposed to be and, as I am told, they are
vision devices. But there are no guns out on the front
of those. And they're not even tanks, they're armored
personnel carriers or something. I'm not a military
person, but I've looked at them and they're far from
being a tank. They're, they're something to protect
the occupants. They are not an offensive weapon. Now,
look, how do you, how do you think this thing is going
to end, Julie?
JULIE: I don't know.
MAX: How do you prefer that it end? What is
your wish? If you could make a wish list, what would
be number one at the top of the list now? Number one.
What is the best thing that could happen for you,
_.~¢
C
0
/-
92O
33
Julie? Right now. Don't wait for an answer from
somebody else. Give me what Julie wants.
JULIE: I don't -- Nobody here knows what
you're asking me.
MAX:What is your wish right now? How would
you want this to be resolved? Huh? How? What would
you want to happen?
JULIE: For God to come and deliver us all
from our enemies
MAX:
JULIE
MAX:
children in her
road?
JULIE
MAX:
and care.
JULIE
MAX:
simple.
JULIE
MAX:Okay, and how's that going to happen?
I don't know.
Could it mean Julie getting her five
arms and walking down to the end of the
Into the enemy's hand?
No, into the arms of justice and peace
Yeah, justice.
People that Joe trusts. It's that
Well, we're waiting on God.
Look, if I had Joe standing down there
at the end of the driveway right now, with his arms
open and pleading to you, would you walk to him?
JULIE: No verbal response.!
MAX:I think that was a question, Julie.
-. ..-nDon't, don't let somebody else answer it for you
want Julie to answer, please, please.
JULIE: I don't know.
MAX: Why? Why not? Couldn't that be
way of delivering you?
JULIE: No verbal response.!
MAX: Couldn't that be the deliverance
want? I know that he wants to be with you.
JULIE: Well, he's always wanted me to
over there with him.
MAX: Sure, and he's always wanted you
what was best.34
I
God's
you
go
to do
JULIE: Even when I was out on the street, he
wanted me to go, go over there with him.
MAX: Is he a religious person?
JULIE: My brother?
MAX: Yeqo
JULIE: Yeah, in his own way.
MAX: Okay. Aren't we all in our own way?
Is his way wrong?
JULIE: Well, because he doesn't know what's
right.
MAX: Well, everybody, as we said, agreed
earlier, has their own way, but it doesn't mean that
you have to distrust everybody that doesn't think
exactly like you. And you've said that you trust Joe
t
~....4
I-
92_I
35
and that he's a religious person and he cares about
you, and he said he wanted to help you raise your
family. Would you, would you, would you believe that
it's God's way if he was down there at the end of the
driveway beckoning to_you? Could you come to him?
Could you answer God's deliverance that way? Would
that be so impossible, to see -~
JULIE
be falling into
MAX:
JULIE
MAX:
JULIE
MAX:
JULIE
Joe.
J MAX:
hands?No, 'cause I won't be delivered, I'll
the enemy's hands.
Joe is your enemy?
NO.
How can that be?
No, not Joe.
Would Joe, would --
The government won't let me be with
Would Joe lead you into the enemy's
JULIE: You guys will be using him to get me.
MAX:No, you heard Joe. I didn't hear
anything that was pressure --
JULIE: Yeah, well, that's what he wants.
Yeah, of course, I can see where he would want me to go
out.
MAX:You don't trust Joe?
JULIE: Yes, I - Yes.
92..-u36
MAX:' That sounds like the message that's
going to have to go back to Joe, is we played the tape,
we gave him the best message and he said -- you said
that you would not come out to him. Who's convinced'
you that Joe's now your enemy?
JULIE: Joe is not -- See, you're changing my
words. I did not say that Joe was my enemy.
MAX: Well, who's convinced you that Joe will
lead you to the enemy then?
JULIE: No, you -- I'm not saying that Joe
would lead me to the enemy, I'm saying that you guys
would use him to get me out there into your hands.
MAX: If Joe --
JULIE: To put me into jail.
MAX: If Joe really loves and cares for you
End of Tape #94.!
._.-1U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #95
°923
3/8/93 - 3/9/>41
11:34 p.m. - 12:20 a.m.
Tape 95!
canMAX: -- either you want
and you want to go to Joe and you
someone is not letting you. Will
JULIE: I can't.
MAX: What can we do to
are not the enemy and that Joe is2
to come out of there
believe Joe but
you come out, Julie?
convince you that we
not leading you into
the hands of the enemy or some evil force?
JULIE: I'll come out when everybody else
comes out.
MAX: I think maybe a situation where
everybody is just looking for -- around at everybody
else and waiting for a leader or waiting for somebody
to make the decision.
JULIE: We're waiting for God to, to tell us
when to come out. Don't you believe in God?
MAX: Well, couldn't that, couldn't that
first person be the sign and couldn't they walk out,
and the others --
JULIE: Yeah, two old ladies went out and how
were they treated?
MAX: Well, they're being treated just fine
now.
JULIE: Now.
MAX: Well, how --
JULIE: Yeah, because, because of the, you
know, because of David.
,_.~43
MAX: Well, David is the one that's --
JULIE: Otherwise, they wouldn't have dropped
the charges. They probably just saying that, too. How
do I know. They're saying that they dropped the
charges. They probably just saying that
us to come out.to try to get
MAX: Are you saying that you will not
believe anything or anybody in this world except David?
Not even Joe, you believe David over Joe? You believe
David over anything that you might hear anywhere else.
JULIE: I'm just telling you what I've heard,
you know, and what I've seen.
MAX: And I'm just - want to restate to you
what you have heard in the last hour and that is on the
tape. And that you know who cares for you and you know
who wants you to come out. And I'm asking you to
consider that plea, both for you and your children.
Joe may be the answer, may be the person
chosen to deliver you. If I could place
at the end of the driveway in safety but
it was him or, you know, wherever aroundthat God has
him down there
that you knew
there that,
that you would that it's him and he would be safe --
JULIE: You would bring my brother here.
MAX: Hum?
JULIE: You would bring my brother here.
MAX: If you would come to him, I would as
a.-an4
soon as I could. I certainly would.
JULIE: Well, I think one of the, the guys
here, his mother wanted to come and, and you guys
wouldn't let him -~ wouldn't let her.
MAX: I'm sorry, repeat that. I didn't
understand.
JULIE: Dave Thibodeaus mother wanted to
come over here and you guys wouldn't let her.
MAX: Well, you may be talking about just
coming over there and walking out across the pasture to
that building. That would not be safe for anyone and
we could not allow that to happen. But we could allow
people to approach with us in those safe vehicles that
you call tanks but safe vehicles to a distance where
you could -- y
JULIE: We wouldn't hurt anybody.
. MAX: to a distance to where you could see
them and then you would know that you could come out
safely to them.
JULIE: Oh, so, you're using them --
MAX: But we're not going to --
JULIE: -- as bait.
MAX: No. You said that you wanted them
there and I said I could bring him here and then you
turn him into bait. You asked for him to be here. I
said, yes. I will. And you can call him whatever you
M.-1S
want to when he gets here but I'll bring him. Do you
trust him?
JULIE: You have a way, a way of
words around.twisting
MAX: No, I have a way of listening and
hearing what's been said. You have the way of
listening to people around you who say things
differently on different occasions. I can hear them
talking long before I can hear you answering. So, I
know where you're getting your answers from. I know
where mine are coming from.
JULIE: I just need some time.
MAX: I don't think Joe -- that Joe has ever
- well, that's what you were saying yesterday morning.
You said you needed time and you needed a message from
Joe.
JULIE: No, I said I had to talk to him.
MAX: Well, you heard --
JULIE: I didn't get to talk to him. I got
to hear him.
MAX: 'Sure. And I will give him
of our conversation.
JULIE: Well, what are you going
that I don't trust him, that, that he's my
all that?
MAX: What would you like for methe results
to tell him,
enemy and
to tell him?
L...-1JULIE: That i
my words around.
MAX: N0, I'll
tell him.
JULIE: I just
him --
MAX: Okay.
JULIE: -- and
out for grandmother.
MAX: Look out
lady that lives in Waco?
JULIE: That's
MAX: Okay. I
look after grandmother.6
s what you -- you're twisting
tell him what you want me to
wanted to tell him that I love
that I would like him to look
for grandmother. That's the
-- yeah, my grandma.
f you would come out, you can
JULIE: You guys wouldn't let me.
MAX: I believe you'd have ever opportunity
in the world.
JULIE: Yeah, and then they also said on the
radio that, that, you know, this -- the trial for this
case wouldn't -- it wouldn't be until like a year. So,
that means I would have
it even goes to trial.
MAX: No, no,
true.
JULIE: Well,
MAX: That isto be in jail for a year before
that is not true. That is not
then --
not --
Q.--47
JULIE: -- what is true than what they say on
the radio? You know, who's - I mean who's lying, you
guys, the, the radio, you know? Then how could I trust
anybody. '
MAX: I believe that you may have heard that
the trial will be a year from now and that's, that's
probably right. But haven't you heard of making bond?
I mean even for the worst people make bond. And I
don't even believe you've done anything to be jailed
for. So, you probably won't go to jail anyway and if
you did for some short period of time, you'd
immediately be available for bond. Your attorney would
demand it, you'd get it, and you'd be out taking care
of grandma. You're probably not going to jail, and
they know you've got five kids to take care of. This
is a good system now.
JULIE: They don't care.
MAX: Oh, yes, yes, everyone cares. Nobody
can take care of your children better than you can.
The judges know that, the world knows that. And if you
haven't done anything, you will not be placed in jail.
It worked once before. You said you didn't do
anything.
JULIE: It wasn't theft.
MAX: You didn't do anything the first time
and you weren't charged. You didn't serve any time.
_...48
JULIE: Yeah, I had to put out a lot of money
that I didn't have.
_ MAX: Well, those things sometimes happen. I
lost money on deals, too. But what is it compared to a
life of fear and a life of danger and a situation where
surroundings are not healthy and there's a potential
for great problems? You've seen that.
JULIE: You mean you guys coming and wiping
us out?
MAX: No. Who's twisting who now?
JULIE: Oh, well, that's what's being heard
on the radio.
MAX: I think if you listen to the radio,
you'll hear that everybody is stating that we're going
to wait this out. We're going to negotiate and there
is not going to be any violence.
_ JULIE: Then why are they saying that this
week they're going to be putting those tanks through
the building?
MAX: I don't think anybody's said any tanks
were going through the building. If they did, they are
not telling the truth.
JULIE: They're not telling the truth?
- ~ MAX: No. Because nobody's going to run
tanks through buildings that contain people.
JULIE: Why did they take the media away from
~.-4here? The9
y don't want nobody to get any, you know --
MAX: We don't want them hurt.
JULIE: -- to see anything.
MAX: We don't want them hurt.
JULIE: Well, we weren't going to hurt them.
MAX: For a long time - there were several
bullets flying around out there for a long time and
there's st
always theill lots of ammunition out there and there's
chance of an accident.
JULIE: Well, we won't hurt anybody. Unless
you guys hurt them, then, you know, --
MAX: The media is here.
JULIE: -- then they will get hurt.
MAX: The media is here. They're just not
within shooting range of the compound. And it's not
only the media that we have to be concerned about.
It's people, ordinary citizens out there driving up and
down the road and --
witnessesJULIE: You guys just don't want any
to see what you guys did to us.
MAX: Julie, that is not true.
wait and r
safety ifJULIE: I mean it's been done before.
MAX: Julie, it is not true. We are going to
esolve this safely. We will guarantee your
you come out.
JULIE: I guess by the end -- I guess by the
~....¢10end of this-week we will know if you're telling the
truth or not.
MAX: Well, we're going to know some day and
you're going to know some day. We're going to sit and
wait and we hope that somebody will lead the way.
JULIE: Well, then if you believe in God,
you'll give us time to wait on his word.
MAX: Haven't we been giving you time?
JULIE: Yeah. Well, just don't push us.
MAX: Nobodys pushing. We're just making
sure that --
_ JULIE: Okay. So, what they're saying on the
radio is not true?
MAX: You're starting to twist something here
but I'm not sure what you're twisting. What part of
the media -- ~
JULIE: They won't come - they won't run
those tanks into our building, will they?
MAX: No, they won't.
JULIE: Okay.
MAX: No one has been hurt since the initial
misunderstanding in this and that's the way it's going
to stay. We're making sure that everyone in there
knows that they have an opportunity to remove
themselves from those surroundings and come into the
rest of the world, the safe world out here, a world
M
ll
where there*s --
JULIE: But that world is not safe.
MAX: A world where -- a world --
JULIE: Haven't you heard of all the things
that are happening, all the violence?
MAX: A world where the media and the
listening public can hear what you have to say, can
hear what David has to say, Steve, any and everybody
else is going to have their day to be heard. And
nobody's going to come storming in any place and wiping
anybody out. And if we can have our wishes, nobody is
going to be hurt at all, any time, any place.
David said on the tape tonight that this --
that this is being resolved, that things are going to
work out and that we're going to see -- find who's at
fault in this thing. And that's exactly what's going
to happen.
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: And nobody's going to get hurt. I want
to make sure that you, your mother and all five of your
children know because I'm going - I'm going to have to
get back to Joe and, and say something, but I want to
make sure that you know that I played the tape for you
and that I gave you the best understanding of that tape
that I could and that we talked about it. And that you
know that you can come out of there with your five
~..-anQ O
12
children and with your mother at any time you want ~-
JULIE: Indiscernible.!
MAX: Listen to me. Don't, don't be talking
to somebody else while I'm talking with you. "
JULIE: I was just telling my mom to go get
one of my daughters.
MAX: Okay. I want you to know above all
that you can come out of there at any time you want to
safety and that no one will harm you and that you will
get a chance to tell your story. Okay? I believe --
Joe believes that, I repeated that. I understand that
there's going to be a television program that everyone
in there is going to watch at about 12:30.
' JULIE: 12:30?
MAX: I think so. Everybody's going to be in
there watching the TV, and it's going to be something
about -- David's mother is going to be on TV, and it's
probably something that you will all want to see.
JULIE: Uh-huh.
MAX: I believe it's 12:30 a.m., up until a
little after 1:00 or so, Channel 25, I believe.
JULIE: Channel 25?
MAX: I believe so. So, you know, I wanted
to make sure that everybody -- do you all watch much TV
while you're in there?
JULIE: Well, yeah, we, we see some of, you
~.4l3
know, some but we have better things to do. l
MAX: Uh-huh. Well, most of us do a lot of
the time. But I think this one might be one to watch.
Now, again, you know, we have to put all of it in '
perspective. We can't believe everything that's --
that, that may be said, but it might give you, you
know, something else to think about. Now --
JULIE: They killed all our dogs, too.
MAX: -- what do you want me to tell Joe, you
love him? And anything else I can tell Joe?
JULIE: That I want him to look after
grandma. I
MAX: Want him to look after grandma in Waco,
that's right.
JULIE: To look for her.
MAX: To look for her. Well, I'll do that.
Now that I know her name --I wish you could come up
with an address and a phone number or something that
would help us to find her and we would certainly check
into it and see how she was. And we'd let Joe know.
We'd get the two of them together.
JULIE: Sheila?
MAX: That TV show is called "A Current
Affair."
JULIE: "A Current Affair"? I've, I've heard
of it.
_..-1
r
92Q I
MAX: You've heard of it?14
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's the one
everybodys supposed to watch tonight. J
JULIE: The what?
MAX: That is the show that everyone is
supposed to watch tonight.
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Will you watch it?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Okay.
JULIE: I'm right here in front of the TV.
They just turned it on.
MAX: Well, tell the rest of them in there to
watch it, too.
JULIE: You want everybody here to watch it?
MAX: Well, probably so, yeah, everybody that
wants to, just want to make everybody aware that it
will be on.
JULIE: Yeah. I'm sure everybody will.
MAX: You sound pretty tired. l
JULIE: Well, it's, you know, it's ~-
MAX: Are you tired, Julie? Do you get much
rest in there?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Are you?
~....4
V
Q I
15
JULIE: Yeah. '
MAX: Okay. Are all your children healthy?
I saw, you know, a couple of them on TV. Do they have
any problems, any illnesses? '
JULIE: No, they're all fine.
MAX: Okay.
JULIE: They're all fine. They're -- you
know, they're - they, they don't want to leave, you
know. They, they don't want, you know -- I mean they
almost killed my children.
_MAX: It was a terrible situation.
JULIE: My daughter, my older daughter, you
know, they, - she went to the window and they just
started shooting at her window because she was at the
window. And then, you know, my other daughter, a
bullet went like six inches from her head. And my, my
son, you know, the bullet went through the floor. It
went, you know, the bullet went through the floor and
it - I mean -- I don't know. I, I think it had to be
God that, that kept that bullet from going through the
carpet because other bullets did go through the carpet.
MAX: That was -- must have been a terrible
thing to live through. I know it was most unfortunate
and I think -~
JULIE: You know, and what about them? The
one - is anything going to happen to them? They're
5.4I I
l6
going to be free to go out and keep on doing it to
other people. And while we, we have to sit in jail
till the trial to find out -- see what happens. Is
that what you call fair?
MAX: I think the closest thing to jail
you'll get, Julie, is where you are right now, that if
you come out, there would not be any jail for you. You
said you've done nothing. You have five children to
take care of. The world recognizes that and will not
put you in jail. But you're far from being free where
you are if you don't have the right to make up your own
mind, if you don't have the right to do as you please.
Then you're in a worse place than jail right now.
JULIE: Well, my daughters are here.
MAX: That's nice.
AUDREY: Hello?
MAX: Hi, who's this?
AUDREY: Audrey.
MAX: Audrey. How old are you, Audrey?
AUDREY: 13 .
MAX: 13. You didn't get on TV then, did you?
AUDREY: No .
MAX: It was your little sisters that got on
TV. I saw a couple of your brothers or sisters there.
AUDREY: Yeah.
MAX: How come they didn't get you on TV, on
t
I...17
the videotape?
AUDREY: I didn't really want to get on
there.
MAX: Oh, are you bashful?
AUDREY: Uh-huh. U
MAX: I used to be bashful. I know how you
feel. Are you doing okay?
AUDREY: Yeah.
MAX: Do you feel okay?
AUDREY: Uh-huh.
MAX: All right. You have enough to eat and
drink?
AUDREY: Yeah.
MAX: Are you scared, are you frightened by
anything in there?
AUDREY: Yeah.
MAX: What?
AUDREY: Well, everything that's been going
on, it's just, you know.
MAX: Where do you -- do you sleep in the
same place with a lot of your friends?
AUDREY: Not really. I sleep with my mother.
MAX: Okay. How about your sisters?
AUDREY: They sleep in the same room with me.
MAX: Okay. So, you're all together?
AUDREY: Uh-huh.
~..-418
MAX: Okay. That's good. Families should be
together. Do you ever think about wanting to come out
and be with the other children out here?
AUDREY: No.
MAX: You'd rather stay in there where you
are?
AUDREY: Yes.
MAX: Okay. I just want you to know that if
you ever want to come out, I'm telling you and I'm
guaranteeing you that you can do that and that you'll
be safe and that you'll be taken care of. Do you
remember your Uncle Joe in Arizona?
AUDREY: Yes.
MAX: Did you know that we had talked with
him and that he had made a tape for your mother to
listen to?
AUDREY: I thought that you might, yeah.
MAX: Did you hear it?
AUDREY: No, it didn't.
MAX: Well, I heard it and it sounds like Joe
wants you to come out or would like for you to come
out. And he asked your mother to bring you all out and
that he would help her take care of you all out here
with your grandmother or with him. Would you like
that?
AUDREY: No, I'd rather stay here.
~.-419
MAX: ?Why do you want to stay in there?
AUDREY: Because I do.
MAX: What's so great about being in there?
AUDREY: My family's here.
MAX: Okay. Don't you have some familyiout
here also?
also?AUDREY: Huh?
MAX: Don't you have some family out here
AUDREY: Yes, I do.
MAX: Do you ever get to see them?
AUDREY: No, not really. '
MAX: Wouldn't you like to see the rest of
your family, too, and live where they live or be able
to come and go and see them when you wished?
AUDREY: Well, I've seen them before, you
know, I mean, just family.
MAX: I see. You have an uncle and a
grandmother and who else is out here?
do thatAUDREY: Cousins.
MAX: Around Waco?
AUDREY: No, not really near, no.
MAX: Okay. Is there anything that we could
ould make you want to come out?
AUDREY: No, I don't think so.
MAX: Oh, okay. Well, it was nice talking
~...92420
with you and I hope you get to be on the next TV show
that they do.
AUDREY: Okay.
MAX: Would you try? Would you get on the
next video so I can see what you look like?
AUDREY: If I can.
MAX: Okay. May I talk with your mother
again, with Julie?
AUDREY: Uh-huh.
MAX: Thank you. Byebye.
AUDREY: Bye.
JULIE: Hello?
MAX: Julie?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: It sounds like you're getting a little
bit tired on me here. Would you like to go rest or
watch the TV show or whatever?
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Okay. I'm going to let you do that.
Just want to tell you one more time that you may come
out of there, bring your children --
JULIE: I need time to think about it.
MAX: If you - yeah, I want you to think
about it and if you need it, I'll have Joe at the end
of that driveway down there, standing, beckoning to you
and all your children to come on out, if that's what
Q...21
you need. And would you be sure and I'm going to call
him back and I'm going to tell him and I'm a fair
person and I do what I say. I'm going to make sure
that someone calls him back, --
JULIE: Yeah, I want -- I just want somebody
to look after grandma. She's, you know, she's in her
80s and --
MAX: Oh, Julie, you and your mother are the
best ones in the world to look out for your grandma.
Why --
JULIE: And --
MAX: -- put that responsibility on somebody
else? You're the ones that care. I hear it in your
voice. Why don't you come do it?
JULIE: Well, cause I have to wait on the
Lord.
MAX: Yeah. ,
. JULIE: I have to --
MAX: He works in mysterious ways.
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: Maybe he needs a leader out of there
this time. Maybe he would speak that way.
JULIE: Or maybe if, if God says so, then
that's what I'll do but not until God does.
MAX: Are you going to hear him or is David
going to tell you when he hears him?
~.-u22
JULIE: Well, I don't know. God works in
mysterious ways.
MAX: Yeah. Well, it could be Joe standing
at the end of the driveway. I
JULIE: It could be. Well, 1 don't know.
So, I just have to wait and see.
MAX: All right. Would you let me be the
first to know when he speaks to you, Julie, 'cause I
want to see you come out of there? I want to be
standing somewhere where I can see you real soon when
you come out of there.
JULIE: Well, if God doesn't, you know, I'm
waiting on the Lord and whatever says and, you know,
that's what shall be --
MAX: Well, I've, I've heard lots of things
blamed on the Lord and the Lord given credit for a lot
of things in my life but it's ultimately going to be
your decision. You may look forward to it and say it's
going to be him. You may look back on it and say it
was. But you're going to have to make the move when it
comes.
JULIE: Yeah.
MAX: So, you listen closely for it. You
search your mind --
JULIE: I have.
MAX: -- your soul and listen closely.
~...423
JULIE: I am.
MAX: And make sure you're not ignoring the
calling that's been there all along and you can't hear
it because someone else maybe putting mufflers on your
ears. As I said, I'm going to call Joe and be very
sure that he knows we played the tape, you listened to
the tape. You said you loved him and he you want him
to go take care of grandma.
JULIE: Uh-huh.
MAX: But you're not coming out.
JULIE: Not I need time to think about it.
MAX: Well, should you rather tell him that
you need time to think about it or that you're not
coming out?
JULIE: That I need time to think about it.
MAX: All right. I'll tell him that. Be
sure that you and everybody in there watch the show
tonight. W
JULIE: Yeah. Yeah, I'm right here in front
of the TV. We're waiting for it to come on.
MAX: Okay. Who else is around there? Let
me talk to somebody else. You're getting tired of me,
I can tell.
JULIE: Let me see. Just a minute.
MAX: Just pick a body and bring him to the
phone. I'll talk to anybody.
92....4. 24
[gap]
STEVE: Hello, Max?
MAX: Hello, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: Well, I just told her to pick a body and
bring him to the phone. And she picked you.
STEVE: Oh, I see.
MAX: That's all right.
STEVE: Yeah, she's looking down the hallway
here and no ones around here right now. Apparently,
they all must have turned in.
MAX: Yeah. Well, it's about that time.
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: But you're going to have a, a group up
for the, the show tonight, though, aren't you, the TV
show? ~
STEVE: Just a minute. One second.
[gap] HM
STEVE: Yeah. All the reports, of course,
you know, we've been hearing all over the radio
stations. Everybody's been telling me about it anyway,
that tanks are going to be coming and crushing the
place down. That's, you know, all day long the same
reports.
MAX: Laughs.! Well, you know how those
people get a little bit carried away.
~...-1
25
STEVE ': Uh huh .
MAX: You know, they can see the Starship
Enterprise fly over or
STEVE: I would imagine.
MAX: -- the green - Good Year Blimp or
something and they would tie it to this situation.
STEVE: That's about it.
MAX: Now, no, no mistake about it and don't,
don't let me get in a bit of crossways with you here,
I'm not denying that there have been some, you know,
additional material out there because of some of the
statements that were made in the last few days about
blowing things up and this, that and the other. You
all are adept in preparing as you've said for some time
and we have to be in a preparing position quite often,
too. So, based on what's been said, we've had to
prepare for any situation that, you know, might have
been alleged or insinuated. So, you know, there we go.
We have some, some heavy stuff but, you know, what's
really happened in the last week? Nobody's been hurt,
nobody's been even threatened in any way.
STEVE: Uh-huh.
MAX: So, it's all a defensive protection.
STEVE: Oh, yeah, I am, you know, obviously,
I'm not concerned about it.
MAX: We've had a real good, what, 24 hours
~...-126
now from what I can tell.
STEVE: Uhhuh .
MAX: The milk issue, the tape coming out,
things have just really smoothed out here. You know,
you were on this media thing a little earlier and
talking about the Indiscernible!
STEVE: Uhhum.
MAX: Hold on just a second.
STEVE: All right.
MAX: Oh, when you made - showed some
concerns earlier about the comments made by our people
on radio or TV that said you all had been obscene or
threatening or what was the phrase they used --
taunting.
STEVE: Right.
MAX: I've -- I watched the last news
conference that our bosses held and from that, I saw
that they did make some reference to some of the words
that were used the other night. And I don't know
whether they called them obscenities or profanities,
but they did make some mention of there being an
escalation in that type of terminology and that's --
STEVE: Really? You see, I didn't -- for the
first time I didn't see the press conferences --
MAX: Oh, okay. '
STEVE: -- like today, for instance.
=..-11
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
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18
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25O Q *
27
MAX: That's probably what, you know, was
picked up and repeated and, and you came back as a
concern to you. That was said. There was some mention
might of - increase in profanities or obscenities or
STEVE: Well, the only thing that we reported
in relation to anything like that was -- and, in fact,
we recognized that it was more than likely had nothing
to do with the F -- the agents here of the FBI because
I, I couldn't imagine that they'd be involved in that.
And that's when a - one of our persons were looking
out the window and --
MAX: Oh, yeah.
STEVE: - coming down the road bared their
butt. ,
MAX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Another one flipped a finger at them.
That was the only thing.
MAX: Well, now, wait a minute. Wait a
minute. I don't know how you could really get upset
about that when you've got it painted on one of your
guitars.
STEVE: Oh, and -- well, yeah, well, that's
true. But you've got to understand, that's to do what
MAX: It can't be too serious of a thing then
92.~428
if you wave your guitar around all over the world -
STEVE: No, well - it's never been shown --
by the way, Max, it's never been shown to the public or
anywhere. And the reason he put it on there is mainly
because the argument -- the challenge isn't so much
with the world that doesn't understand or make any
claims about the Bible or God. There's a lot of people
in this world that are worldly wise. They sit back and
they watch all these people professing God and
professing Jesus Christ and they look at the works of
these people and, and they see it as being a joke, as
not a -- a non-reality.
MAX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: So, like myself, I don't claim to
know God. I don't claim to know Christ because my
actions have not shown that all my life even though
I've tried this, I've tried that, I've compared
religion and - but the reason -- if you look at the
guitar again very close, God is saying through all the
prophets in the last days, he's -- God a person, a
spokesperson in his behalf and it's called a ravenous
bird. One of the greatest prophecies is found in the
writings of Solomon in the Book of Ecclesiastes, a man
who was to be the wisest man that ever lived, summed up
all his life's experiences and his testimony in saying,
well, it's found in Chapter 12. And it goes on to say
~....~i
' ' ~
29
that the creator will rise up at the voice of the bird.
What bird?_ All theologians should be asking that
question.
MAX: I don't think that's the bird they had
in mind. D
STEVE: Well, no, but if I can - we could
take you through chapters of Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah.
And like Isaiah 56, you'll find out God is hot about
people that claim to know him in the final days and do
not know his warning message to the world, how you are
to be prepared, how you're going to miss the
catastrophes, the judgments that will be poured upon
this world. See, that's the thing. So, like in
Malachi Chapter 2, it says God is so mad with ministers
I
and priests, he's going to spread the shit of animals
on their faces in the final days. Now, the Hebrew
literally says the word that I gave. People are
shocked to see that God uses language like that but he
does because in these final days it's something that's
very sharp to the point that people understand.
MAX: Okay. Well, there's no problem with
there being reported then an increase in profanity if
that's the way he planned it.
STEVE: Well, see, well, that's about it.
MAX: Okay.
STEVE: But, see, like with that guitar, for
~.....-130
instance, when people claim and when they're making
money off of a book that they really don't know and
understand -- and that's been proven by our traveling
the world - allowing them to open up the pages by
asking questions they cannot answer. So, here you have
the, all these men just moving the masses by feelings,
not by facts, not by the sure word that God said is so
true and all true in every generation. So, this is why
we had our artist draw a picture such as that. David
said, this is what we need. Then it gets the reaction
of people saying, well, what about this, what are you
really saying? Well, glad you asked the question. You
want to see something opened up from your Bible? You
go wrestle with the issues. We'll show you something,
how the pieces of the puzzle fit. You go back and
wrestle with the issues. lf there's a God, you ask for
a spirit of discernment to see what the truth is and
what is not. See, this is really what is meant by
that. But it's a serious thing when men claim to know
God, making money off the masses, moving the masses.
But like it says in Isaiah 56, they slumber, they're
greedy dogs. They never get enough. They, they don't
bark, they don't warn the people as to what God's
impending judgments and that which is coming upon the
world is.
MAX: Steve?
C»....431
STEVE: Yeah, go ahead.
MAX: I'm used to hearing David preach but I
don't, I don't know that I've ever heard you get this
involved before.
STEVE: Oh, I do frequently.
MAX: Before you get -- huh?
STEVE: Yeah, recently I haven't but, you
know, the man that showed me these things is right
here.
MAX: Uh~huh.
STEVE: So, I always learn something new when
he speaks. So, I do a lot of listening.
MAX: Okay. Sue Johnson --
STEVE: Uh-huh.
MAX: called, from Cambridge, Wisconsin.
STEVE: And when did she call?
MAX: Last night.
STEVE: Uh-huh. I
MAX: Called in down here.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: Again, I didn't personally get a chance
to talk with her but she asked that we play you a
message from her. Are you in a situation there that
you can listen to it?
STEVE: Sure.
MAX: Okay. I'll - we'll play it for you.
a.-.432
Hold on. I'dont know the volume and how much static
will be involved but just bear with me. Hold on.
STEVE: All right.
MAX: I'll be back - I'll be back after --
I'll be back after it's over with.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX:
Max
Steve!:Okay.
plays message from Sue Johnson to
SUE JOHNSON: Hi, Steve, this is Sue. And
you know we've told you how much we love you and you
know we care about you. Steve, this is a very
dangerous situation. And, Steve, you know how bad we'd
feel if you were hurt or anything happens to you or
Judy or Minah. And, Steve, it's not too late. Please,
Steve, if there's any way that you can peacefully
settle this situation, please do it. Please don't let
anything bad happen. You know that if anything
happens, we will not be able to handle this. We would
not be able to
and, Steve, we
have some kind
matter how far
you know we'lllive with anything bad happening to you
want you and Judy to come out and still
of a decent life together. Steve, no
things have gone or what you've done,
stick by you. And, Steve, you know, you
remember all the fun times we've had together and we
could have a lot more fun times together and it's not
<...-433
too late for us to still have some fun times. Please
think about this. Think about Judy and Minah and lay
down those weapons so that you can come out and live
and we can have Christmass together and have our
family back together again. Steve, we care too much
about you. Please, Steve, think about -- don't forget
all of us and, and Judy and Minah. Steve, I love you a
lot and the whole family loves you a lot and I am
hoping and praying, Steve, that we're going to see you
soon. Please know that we're here for you and we will
help you every way possible. We love you, Steve.
Good-bye.
MAX: Okay, Steve, I'm back.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: Sounds like a very caring lady there.
STEVE: There was actually more than one on
there, it sounded like. It sounded like a couple of
sisters.
MAX: Oh.
STEVE: Unless I'm going deaf, anyway.
MAX: Do you have more than one sister?
STEVE: Oh, yeah.
MAX: Okay.
STEVE: They're all extremely sentimental,
emotional and so forth.
MAX: Uh-huh. You're not?
Yd34
STEVE; Oh, I suppose to some degree
everybody is, has, has a soft spot.
MAX: I was reading, again, another one of
these media stories but it's an article about you the
other day. And it was mentioned that, you know,:about
you and Judy.
STEVE: Uh-huh.
MAX: And I guess at the time, right before
or during the time you were coming into, you know, the
situation you're in now. It mentions Hawaii here. I
remember, remember you talking about that.
STEVE: Uh-huh. _
MAX: What was happening when you -- let's
see, it says, read you just a section of it here.
STEVE: All right.
MAX: Says "Howell came along at a critical
moment in Schneider's life and he and his wife, Judy,
now 41, lived in a Honolulu apartment. Schneider
taught comparative religion at the University of Hawaii
part-time. That Schneider really wanted to be a
minister." With the pastorate opening -- when a
pastorate opening went to the nephew of the president
of the local Seventh Day Adventist Conference, you
became embittered.
STEVE: What? Who, who is this from?
MAX: "Steve was a good talker and he loved
~....¢35
people but he became frustrated. Vernon came along at
the right time and offered Steve something he couldn't
refuse."
STEVE
family or who?
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
sources.
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVEIs that from Marc Breault or maybe my
>
Doesn't always, you know, how these --
I meant to --
-- they don't always state their
Yeah.
It's just sort of rambling --
Yeah, I'm entertained by it.
-- melange here.
No, the truth of the matter is my
mother was a Catholic. My dad was a Lutheran. They
became Seventh Day Adventist. And --
_ MAX: It says that Schneider's wife, Judy,
was one of Howell's targets. Schneider initially
balked at, at Howell's new --
STEVE: Oh, that's good to be Marc.
MAX:-- light.
STEVE: That's definitely Marc. That's from
Marc.
MAX:Judy's Indiscernible! --
STEVE: Max?
MAX:-- became the object of Howell's wrath
a...36
and the Bible studies. He would condemn her in the
studies for wanting to be with Steve. She knew that he
was right. She should do it. Otherwise, she would be
a whore because she belonged to Vernon. She and Steve
had gotten married just because they wanted to be
married.
said they
Steve and
ride just
security,
shows you
were?They didn't have the Lord's permission. He
were committing adultery. After the studies,
Judy would get on the motorbike and go for a
to be able to touch one another, just for the
to feel one another.
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: They've got a picture in here that
with Judy. She's a very attractive lady.
STEVE: This is true. She is.
MAX: Miss her?
STEVE: Pardon?
MAX: Do you miss her?
STEVE: Well, she's right here.
MAX: Well, do you miss the way that you
STEVE: It's never changed. If anything,
it's gotten better. See, there's a lot of stories and
rumors that you'll always get, always.
MAX: Well, that's true.
STEVE: Like, for instance, Marc Breault, he
was the one that originally introduced me to David.
~...-4' 3 7
The story that you just heard, that you just read
there, there's partial truths to what you were reading.
MAX: Yeah. l
STEVE: But it started out incorrect in that,
no, I had many opportunities. When it came to the
Seventh Day Adventist Church, I knew three of the
general vice presidents. There was only one man higher
in all of that denomination of 6,000,000 coherents.
MAX: Yeah. Well, it's a lengthy article.
It's probably a page and a half.
STEVE: And when it talks about - I've never
ever been embittered with that church or any church.
Whoever wrote that is so far from the truth. The truth
of the matter is when I considered being a minister
back in the early 70s, after going to school for some
years, I saw the inconsistencies and the hypocrisy. I
saw young men who wanted to be the head of
congregations with having degrees and be acknowledged
and -- it's a very easy job. I decided after reading
how the Aspostles went through what they did, that was
not for me. So, I backed away from it for awhile. And
I decided to go back and try it again because I did not
see the old-fashioned way of people really getting
together and prayer meetings. I did not see people in
that church body being concerned, especially the, the
ministers, for people's souls, for their physical needs
kuQ
38
and wants. So, for that reason, I had to take a good
look at the very motives why I was even considering
doing such a thing. So, ultimately, I thought I'd go
back into that church, meaning into the ministry, and
make an example. I knew I wouldn't last long because
I'm a person that speaks my mind. If I see something
MAX: Steve, may I, may I interrupt you and
STEVE: Sure, you can.
MAX: -- make a, make a parable here or
whatever -- H
STEVE: Sure, you could, if you'd like.
MAX: You, you mentioned looking around you
and seeing people striving for personal gain and, and
satisfy --
STEVE: In the name of religion or the name
of God, yeah. I
MAX: Okay. "Can you look around today and
see anybody --
End of Tape #95!