Document text
I Q 2
Tape 124!
something like
are in control
they know that.
and it's going
our freedoms.STEVE: -- do anything or make, make turn
that into a big deal. And those that
of this country, that's what they
And they're moving in that direction
to -- we're going to continue to lose
So, no, I didn't expect that a surgeon
or a doctor would come here. I don't care what doctors
- what kind of an oath they take, you guys are in
control anyhow.
don't want
requested to come in,DICK: WG--
STEVE: SO,well --
if you don't want one -- if you
to allow a surgeon to come in that has even
like on Ron Englewood's sic!
behalf, and he himself is willing to come in -- and
that would
whole body
you people
work? Whyhave gone a, a long, long, long way for this
to come on out. But, of course, why should
take a chance to find out if that would
don't we just go on for days and weeks and
so forth, until you bring your tanks in, till you
firebomb, till whatever else you need to do?
halfway? How can, how can I as a negotiator
as, as kind of a negotiator or intermediary,
meet this halfway? we don't want anybody toDICK: Steve, how, how can we meet you'all
and you
how can we
get hurt.
We don't want Judy's --
I Q 3
STEVE: Let me, let me --
DICK: -- finger to --
STEVE: "' just halfway --
DICK: -- you know, get inf--
STEVE: Judy --
DICK: -- so bad.
STEVE: You mentioned Judy. And, about her
finger, it would go a long ways in her behalf to have
trust in people like yourselves if -- when her request
and Ron Englewood, whose willingness, along with the
surgeons he found to come in to take care of her
finger, that, I think, would make a huge difference in
her views of you people, because, after all, she's the
one that got shot in the finger through the hand and in
the shoulder, reaching out for a baby bottle, or
whatever she was -- I, I think she said a baby bottle.
So, I mean, and she was not -- she didn't have a gu--
she wasn't firing at anybody. She looked out of a
window and -- first of all, and then -- and it was --
and hearing the co- some commotion, and, and she got
it. I mean, why were these guys firing at her in the
first place? I would -- I'll tell you the truth. I
was outraged when I --
DICK: Well --
STEVE: -- saw her finger and saw what had
happened.
Q Q 4
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: I was extremely mad.
DICK: I was - Steve, I wasn't there, you
know.
STEVE: But I - why --
DICK: I can't answer those --
STEVE: - why should she come --
DICK: - some of those questions.
STEVE: -- out and go through some kind of a
process until you people to her, in her own mind, to
her satisfaction, have proven themselves? She doesn't
think you have. She doesn't see a good intent, from
her perspective --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: - right now.
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: She sees a good intent on the part of
a, a Ron Engelmand and --
DICK: Well --
STEVE: - the surgeons that were willing to
come here, and there, and thereby, if you would have
allowed that, she would have seen that you were working
with people that had love for humanity and for the
welfare of humanity. But at this point, she doesn't
see it. And I, and I can't, the truth is, talk her out
of her position right now.
Q Q 5
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: I, I could come out on my own. She
-- I'll tell you the truth, she - if I came out right
now, she would stay here.
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: She told me that. She would --
DICK: Okay. ~
STEVE: - stay here.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: So and I asked a few other people,
well, if I go out - and I'll tell you this. I asked a
few other people: if I go out right now, what are you
going to do? They said they would stay here. So, no,
I don't have the kind of influence you people are
giving me credit for. Right now they are still, they
are still more ill-at-ease than I am in regards to your
agency --
DICK: Yeah. well --
STEVE: -- in regards to the system. And
they are getting this because of the actions -- they
all knew what Jim had said from Sunday night and --
about the perimeter, about no one being on the
property. And you, the FBI, who are in control, right
away continued to do more and more and more, contrary
to what was given by Jim the very first night. That
keeps coming up by the people to me over and over every
day.
DICK:
something?
STEVE:
close to what --
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:Steve, Steve, can I interject
Now, you are you listening really
I'm listening.
-- I'm telling you?
But can I interject something?
But did you hear me, Dick?
Okay. Go ahead.
Did you hear me?
Yes. Go ahead.
Okay. Now, if you want to react to
that, because that still is a major issue to a the
majority of those people that are in here.
DICK:
STEVE:
around, and it'sCertainly.
That's what I've been trying to get
not easy when the facts are staring
them in the face. Not only did you guys bring in all
the Bradleys, the -- ruin our private property I
don't know what you're going to do or how you're going
to replace a, a, a motorcycle that has special art work
done to it. I mean, here they went and ran one over.
They buried one. They ran over shacks. I mean -- and,
and you people did not communicate to me that ahead of
time or the reasons for it. You just did it. Whereas
Q. Q 1
we look out the window and you people are screaming
loud and clear over the, the telephone about someone
looking out a window wearing a balaclava. I was glad
you introduced me to a new word in the vocabulary. I
never heard of it before. But at the same time you
screamed loud, loud, loud. I mean, if anybody makes a
movement around here - but it's not been a two-way
street and I have said that from the beginning. So,
it's they my job, what I've desired to do, as much
as you say you do, and that's bringing people out, it's
made my job ten times harder, every day much harder.
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Because you don't do things that are
-- I mean, like one day, of course, they finally
brought in -- four or five days after the request for
milk they finally bring it in. Then they shut the
electricity off that, that night. So, right away here
the milk is already starting to s~- what in the worl--
what's going on?
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: It -- you know, tr-- I'm trying in
their behalf also to sit down sensibly, talk these
issues out, to make sense of it for myself. And it's
not easy. You guys don't -- you - it's like y- on
one hand you're, you're saying you're trying to help me
out, you're trying to help them out. On the other,
I Q 8
you're doing everything to show that you're not
sincere. Your actions don't show that. Last night I
thought -- yesterday and last night -- now, you said I
was going to get these magazines. Here it is now into
the - well, well into the next day. So, where do we
go from here? You tell me. I, I mean, I've been
listening. I've been listening. But try to make it so
it's believable.
DICK: Well --
STEVE: Try to make it believable to me.
DICK: Can, can you hang on just a second?
STEVE: Sure can.
DICK: Someone's kind of waving at me over --
hold, hold on. Please. Please hold on.
Pause.!
DICK: Hello, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: Steve. Yeah. Now, someone kind of
waved to me there and --
STEVE: All right.
DICK: What about, you know, setting aside
these, these issues that, you know, that, that keep
coming up and how about let me, let me throw this
out. You know, take some time and think about it.
Talk to David if you want. How about sending some
people out, say four or the three that were - that,
you know --
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVEDick, you've got your --
- that --
Well, wait
NO, I10,it, it --
I had --
now.
no.
Listen, Steve.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
NOW --
NOW --
-- listen to you.
__ li__
say anymore, let's, let's
about sending some people
DICK: Steve, I
STEVE: Wait --
DICK: And I --
STEVE: I can't
an impo--
DICK:I can't --
It's notno, no. wait. Before you
pick on -- you just said how
out, four or whatever.
listened to you.
now, listen -- wait, wait.
would you listen to me?
because you're talking about
impossible.
STEVE: -- coerce -- I can't force them --
DICK: Go ahead. Go ahead.
STEVE: -- against their will. How do you
send somebody out that's not willing to go out, now?
Dick, you're, you're talking - you're not talking
sensibly to me. Come, come back -- let's, let's use
I Q 1°
the phrase Max uses all the time: come back to Earth,
Dick. Come back to Earth. Dick? Dick?
DICK: Hello.
STEVE: Now, this is what --
DICK: Hello, Steve.
STEVE: - Max says to me. Now, let's -- let
me do that to you. Now, these people have a freedom of
choice. I respect it. I couldn't re- coerce them
into anything or with -- through salesmanship try to
talk them out of a position they've taken. You don't
understand by what happened last night, speaking one
way and showing something else. You damaged my
credibility with yourselves and them. I, I'm not
joking you when I'm telling you that.
DICK: How do you think we felt when we
walked in here this morning and occurred --
STEVE: I it does not - well, the then
you're not in control and you guys ought - don't waste
your time, Dick. Go home and put the commanders on the
phone then. There's no sense in having you in between
them and us.
DICK: Well, our, our credibility - you
know, you damaged our credibility when you'all didn't
come out. What is it? I don't - I've lost track of
times, Steve. A week or so ago.
STEVE: No, no, no. No, no.
O Q 11
DICK: The first Tuesday.
STEVE
break your word
Sunday.
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
broadcast --
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
start sending children out. It had nothing to do with
you, your organization or Jim. David chose to do that
himself.
DICK:You, you people were the first to
Let's be real now. Right from
N0.
No, no. Let's go right back --
David said he --
-- to Sunday night --
-- would come out --
That was, that was David.
-- at the end of that hour-long
It was David Koresh --
- and he did not.
-- that chose --
Everybody was coming out.
It was David Koresh that chose to
I was right here --
Fine.
STEVE: -- next to him.
DICK: That's very good.
STEVE: Okay. So, he starts doing that right
from Sunday night. Certain promises were made to us.
They have never ever been kept, but you've encroached
O Q '2
upon us more and more and more. You've tried to
intimidate. You've played all sorts of mind games by
the, the, the games you've been playing. But it
doesn't affect the people and their state of mind,
their mind-set from where they're coming from. It
doesn't bother them. What bothers them is if they are
to make a choice to come out, you've got to show them
something that they can trust in, that you have some
consistency in the things you're doing and saying, and
that's where you fall short. when you're talking to
me, John has for the past three days, it doesn't
finally matter anymore when John is so sweet, so
decent, so humanitarian, but on the other hand someone
else comes in to play, changes the program, changes the
rules, acts contradictorily to what has taken place.
DICK: Well --
STEVE: So, now here we --
DICK: We've --
STEVE: -- are again.
DICK: -- we've delivered.
STEVE: I'm in a worse place - since this
all started, I'm in the worse place than ever before.
I really am.
DICK: Well, then, how about coming on out of
there then? You know, we've given milk. We've, we've
tried to convince people. we've sent the --
STEVE: Dick --Q 13
DICK: -- suture kit in.
STEVE: -- man, I
what school -- I don't know
you grew up in or what kind
training, you definitely --tell you what, I don't know
what kind of an environment
of a school you got your
you and, you and I are not
hitting on the same wavelength --
DICK: Uh-uh.
STEVE: -- right now. The very reason why
they're not coming out is the very reason you're going
to bring up to me. They should come out. You - well,
you and me are so far apart
DICK: Uhuh.
STEVE: -- right now.
DICK: I know. I'm listening to you, Steve,
but you won't listen to me. It's, it's --
STEVE: Oh, I will -- I'm listening to you,
but you aren't being realistic. You've got to start to
prove to these people again you -- I'm serious. What
John had done the last three days in a row these people
liked. It made a huge difference. Now here comes a
new guy, Dick, the ninth person. What the --
DICK: Nine? Nine already.
STEVE: Yeah, it is nine already.
DICK: I lost track here.
STEVE: At least nine, maybe ten even. I
O Q 14
don't know. I'll, I'll jot them all down. It's prob-
you're probably -- yeah, you're nine and, and Third
John would be ten.
DICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: But after all these guys, that even
makes it look worse. I mean, you guys get a break.
You can go eat. You can go back home after putting in
your week's --
DICK: Yes .
STEVE: - work or your --
DICK: That's true.
STEVE: -- couple days. I mean --
DICK: Certainly.
STEVE: But, anyway - no, I will sit and --
I'll listen here 10, 20, 50 minutes if you want, but be
realistic. If you're going to be going around in a
merry-go-around repeating yourself, becoming redundant,
what can I do? Come on. Give me something to go back
to these people to gain some respect and some, some
trust in you. Right now, whether it's you or not, if
it's the commanders, then they're going to believe that
no matter what you say, Dick, doesn't mean a whole lot.
It doesn't mean a hill of beans. Are you hearing --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: - me say that?
DICK: Yeah. Yes.
0 0 15
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: Okay. Steve --
STEVE: So, if the commanders are the --
actually the ones in control and no matter what you say
it doesn't matter, they'll do their own thing, well,
then, what's the sense of me having a phone line open
to you in the first place?
DICK: Okay. All right. wait a minute now,
Steve. I'm, I'm concerned about Judy's finger. Okay?
And I, I know you've, you've kind of relayed Judy's
attitude toward us or, you know, seeking medical help.
What - consider this. What if Judy came out to the
tank or --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Bradley.
DICK: - Bradley and had a doctor, medical
doctor, treat -- take a look at her finger and, and
just kind of, you know, indepe-- just see it firsthand
and treat it if necessary, whatever, and, and she can
go back in?
STEVE: well, do you know what?
DICK: what about that?
STEVE: If you actually - if she did that
and you were honest and you followed through with what
you're saying and she came back in, that would give me
so much space and room to start gaining - I'm -- it,
it would help a lot.
I Q 16
DICK: Okay. Now, it's going to cost you.
We want some people come out. In other words, how
about some children? I, I'm sure they're cold, Steve.
STEVE: Well, of course they are.
DICK: You know, I -- I haven't been in there
and I, and I don't know, but I, I walked in this
building this morning and it was cold. How about three
children? We'll treat Judy's finger and I've got to
sell this to, to --
STEVE: Well
DICK: - the guys that I answer to and
they've got to go up the, the ladder, so to speak.
STEVE: Dick, let me - about the children --
DICK: Yes, sir?
STEVE: The children, that's what - that's
one thing that's not in my hands at all. Dealing with
these other adult individuals is, not dealing with the
children. The children, for the most part, the
majority are David's own children. So, you're talking
about three children coming out. Then you'd ha- I'd
have to go to him, talk to him about it. I really
don't see that that's right now something that he would
choose to do, especially because he was so highly
insul- I'm telling you, he stopped talking last night,
even to -- I haven't talked to him yet. Every -- when
we were sitting there, I had just been in communication
with John Cox, and that electricity went off, we17
re --
what's this now? And since then I've not communi-- and
to -- for me to
him further myself going to him saying they want
of your children
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
to leave. That
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
with you.
DICK:
finger. Okay?even have the -- I wouldn't even insult
three
What - well, well --
You -- Dick --
This is going to be for Judy.
I want -- okay. I'm going, I'm going
won't matter. That --
Steve.
-- won't matter.
It's for --
Seriously.
it's, it's for Judy.
Nope. That would - I'm being honest
we, we want to help her with her
I, I saw the, you know, the tape --
STEVE: Now, if you're talking about, if
you're talking about adults, I can go talk --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: - to them.
DICK: Okay. Fine. That's, that's okay.
Okay? And let me run this by you. Medical treatment
for Judy's finger. She's free, free to go back in.
I: ll 18
Okay? After she's -- gets this medical -- I guess it's
an evaluation and whatever emergency first aid. And,
and, and three adults.
STEVE: well, let me tell you how --
DICK: And I -- _
STEVE: I, I, I'm almost sure that --
DICK: Go ahead.
STEVE: Okay. I would -- I'm going to go
talk to David, if he will talk to me. I don't even
know if he will. But here's what he would say. I'm
sure of it. I'm not, not -- I'm 99 percent sure he
will say this. To regain some confidence in this, let
Judy go out there, get her finger fixed, come back in,
and these three people then after that will come out.
That's what he's going to say, because it is you people
that are the ones that stopped the process. It's you
people that are the ones that broke the trust
relationship.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: So, it's you that got to make the
first move and start showing the opposite again. I
know he's going to say that.
DICK: Okay. Well, let me ~-
STEVE: One of the last things he said to me
was in that regard. Not of course about Judy or
anything else, but in - speaking about the principles.
l* IN 19
DICK: Okay. How, how about we, we
compromise. Okay? How about we meet halfway. How
about one adult out. We treat Judy's finger. She
comes out, goes back in, and two adults.
STEVE: Are you saying one comes out with her
and then gets --
DICK: NO --
STEVE: -- in the vehicle --
DICK: Well, we can do that. Or just - or,
you know, one adult comes out and -- freely walks out.
Judy has her finger treated. We're concerned. I'm,
I'm serious, Steve.
STEVE: Now, remember, I've --
DICK: We're very concerned --
STEVE: -- I've got a --
DICK: -- about her finger.
STEVE: You remember, I've got to pass this
all to the three individuals who will --
DICK: Okay. Well, I've got --
STEVE: -- who are willing --
DICK: - I've got to talk to --
STEVE: -- to come out on their own. I mean,
it -- they weren't coming out because they were ne-- we
were negotiating anything. They were coming out
willingly --
DICK: I, I understand. I understand.
I Q 2°
STEVE: They weren't - there was no
bargaining, nothing. They just came out because they
had -- gaining confidence in you people. I kept
talking to them. They were gaining confidence. That's
the reason. But now, I mean, I'll have to run this by
David. I'll have to run this by those thr-- first of
all, those three, because they -- it won't matter to
him what their choice is. They've got a choice --
DICK: Certainly.
STEVE: to make on their own.
DICK: But --
STEVE: But he might -- he will want to know
what's going on around here for sure.
DICK: But I also know how influential you
are. And, and here's, here's the deal. One come out.
If she wants - if he or she wants to come out with
Judy, fine. Judy gets her finger treated. Judy goes
back in and two other adults. I have to get -- I've
got to talk to the coordinator that kind of runs
roughshod over our - the negotiators, and he's got to
go - you know, it's incredible, but the, the
bureaucracy, we've got to go up the line. Okay?
STEVE: Um-hum .
DICK: They wo it can-- okay. Can - you
can run that by David and perhaps talk to --
STEVE: I will.
Q- Q 21
DICK: -- some of the adults.
STEVE: Give me - give me --
DICK: Sta--
STEVE: -- at least one hour, though.
DICK: One hour?
STEVE: Because I, I --
DICK: Okay. >
STEVE: - don't know if he's awake yet,
because he goes in and out all the time.
DICK: Okay. How, how is he doing? I mean,
you know, physically?
STEVE: I don't - I haven't, I haven't seen
him since 12:15 last night --
DICK: Oh, okay.
STEVE: when I walked, when I walked out
of his room. He didn't -~ see, he wasn't - like I
told you, he wasn't speaking. He, he was very stern in
his countenance. And he do -- he - I mean, he - for
- he said this. Like I told you, he said we are now
going to be counselling with God or we're going to
communicate with God. we're going to get all these
people together, because you people have, have stopped
communicating with us by your actions. That's what he
said.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: That's the only thing he said I could
. 22
pass on in his behalf to yourselves.
DICK: Okay, Steve. Well, how -- you know,
let's, let's talk again in about an hour, okay? About
2:30 or so. I think it's let me see. It's 1:30.
to answer
glitch.STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
UNIDENTIFIEDIt is. Okay.
About 2:30?
Okay.. About 2:30 then
Okay.
I'll talk to you then.
All right. Thank you.
Sure.
Bye-bye.
Bye.
*****
MALE SPEAKER 1:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER 2:
UNIDENTIFIED
UNIDENTIFIEDMALE SPEAKER 3
MALE SPEAKER 4:
STEVE: Hello?
DICK: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.Hang up?
He's not going
: Hang up?
NO, I10, HO, DO
DICK: Dick. How are you doing?
STEVE: Dick. Okay.
DICK: Hi. Well, we've got another telephone
O
I Q 23
STEVE: Oh. No, I was just a little - a few
steps away from the phone here.
DICK: Oh. Okay. Hey, I wanted to ask you,
Steve, if you -- this communication we got from an
attorney here on behalf of your sister, do you -- have
you given that any more thought or --
STEVE: No, I really haven't. I was more
concerned about the communication breakdown between us
and yours-- and ourselves. You know --
DICK: Yeah. Well, well, do you have any
message for your sister or would you want us to --
STEVE: I really don't. I really don't.
DICK: Okay. All right. Okay. Did you have
a chance --
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: Go ahead.
STEVE: Yeah. I peeked in there to see if
David was around --
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- and he, he being there, he said --
actually, he had a few things to say.
DICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: He said to him it was the highest
insult. On one hand, he said we had this rapport going
for three days, and then, of course, the electric go --
cut off. And that told him a lot about you, your!
i
n
I- D 2.,
organization, about what you people are about, about
humanitarianism, all the rest. And he also reminded me
that -- to remind you that we're also Judeo-Christians.
It's our sabbath today and so you couldn't have picked
a better time. He also -- you know, of course, you
brought up his children and how cold it is here for
them and that's --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- true. He realized - and that's
exactly it, and that's
on.why he's wondering what's going
DICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: You know, a lot of us have thought
about things like the Red Cross and how in time of war
or any other crisis, no matter what extreme of society
you have or, or that a
adverse conditions, it
you people, of course,
source of help when it
might be. It's got to
I see that. It's thatpeople might be involved in some
seems to always be help. But
have cut us off from any kind or
comes to medicine, whatever it
be your way or no way. It's --
way with the press even, no
matter -- or what other part of the government or
society in this country there is, it seems like you
people are totally in control. So, you know, I mean,
you guys are smooth with, with us on one side, you
know, you -- the way you talk to us and so forth, and
0» Q 25
we look out the windows and see a lot of, like I told
you earlier, a lot of negative actions. And, of
course, there's always - it's - we can never do
something good enough or fast enough for you, even
though do-- David has reiterated to you that you can't
force the conscience of people. You know, if you give
them time, as you saw happen, as you saw happen I
really thought it would have turned out to be like a
little break in a dam where ultimately it would have
taken place. That's really what was in my mind
yesterday. And, I mean, I went and talked to a few, a
few people meanwhile, and they're not reacting well to
me at all. I knew that. I --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: actually, I knew it.
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: And I really I mentioned about
Judy's finger and the, the - and the other three, but
the - before I could do anything -- I didn't even go
to Judy because she would, of course, be more than
happy to do something like that. But I went and talked
to the three and they were not interested.
DICK: Not interested, huh?
STEVE: NO. So -- and, and it didn't matter
if I talked to David about it, because he's not going
to go against what their choice is. That's the whole
O Q 26
- so, I didn't even bother, you know, with that issue.
So, here I am now. I knew it was going to come to
this.
DICK: So, here we are again, huh?
STEVE: Yeah. I, I'm telling --
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: To tell you the truth, I'm
shocked. Even -- you know, totally shocked.
DICK: Well, you know, to --
STEVE: Keep in mind about the Red
Keep in mind about other conditions of other
human life and how humanity has come to helptotally
Cross.
fazes of
and to do
and so forth. Remember this, Dick. I wish you would
have never been involved with this. I wish you would
have been at your office, some other place, or involved
with other illegalities of other criminals or doing ~-
or something of that nature. But maybe it was meant to
be. Maybe it's providence. But you came close to
having an opportunity to reach a people that
answers when it comes to why
like it has for 6,000 years,
these things, whether you're
we're here to tell you God'shave
this Earth has gone on
what the answers are for
interested or not. But
not happy with any of us,
but especially you people. You don't seem to have ears
to hear. We were here in this building that day
studying that book, looking to see what God's will was,
I, .l 27
because we're not so stupid. We do have some faith,
that we believe that there is a, a mightier authority,
a greater mind than ourselves that we got here by. I
mean, I see in stereo. I hear in stereo. A scientist
can't even show you how life comes from a dead sea, how
a monstrous tree like a Sequoia can come from a little
seed. I mean, these are - these, of course, are
mysteries that they'd like to look into. And we have
someone here that can explain those very mysteries.
But one would never know that unless they had some time
and ears to hear. But people are too interested in
this life, the life of the flesh, the life that'll pass
away. You and I are subject to death, Dick, aren't we?
DICK: Certainly. It's --
STEVE: Your, your --
DICK: -- you know --
STEVE: - your family, yourself -- and
that's why we're here in the first place. Now, we're
looking at how, how humanitarian you people really are.
what you do to us and what you allow to happen to a
people who love freedom, who love to worship God by the
dictates of their conscience, we're, we're watching to
see how you treat us, and, and we believe that God is
watching you. And I told you about this lOO years. I
can show you in the giplg where the prophets talk about
those people in the last days to beware, don't get92
caught up on
weigh it out
ultimate and
ten times -the wrong side, listen to
clearly. Because what is
final generation is going
tenfold to those involved28
the issues,
done in this
to be manifested
I don't want
to see some -- you go through 100 years where it's
going to be so cold, people are going to be hungry,
those that are the, the strongest survive. I, I don't
want to see you part of it. You're ignorant of it.
You know nothing about it. You probably don't believe
in the book for good reasons, because religion has been
a farce through many generations. And if we, if we see
with our eyes what it's really been, people judge
correctly. They don't want to be part of such a, a
thing. But like myself, I've kept my ears and eyes
open for many years when it comes to what I'm doing on
this Earth, where I'm going, and I read - I finally
came across a source that had consistent logical
answers. And I literally tried to disprove the guy. I
tried to rip him apart and show where he was wrong. I
could not do it. So, in all honesty, I said if there's
a God out there, help me to have some discernment to --
and, and some honesty with myself, with you, that if,
if such a being exists I make the right decision. But
it's a decision that's been made every day since I've
joined or been part of this organization, as with these
other individuals. It's not easy, the stumbling blockY
I ll 29
being here's a place that, like I told you earlier, is
so dumpy -- and it's meant to be that way. But now,
because we've lived in such conditions, it doesn't
bother us that you turn off the electricity. It
doesn't bother us that we don't have this, don't have
that. we're actually used to it.
DICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: But we are bothered about is, from
your perspective and perception, what we're bothered
about is how you've gone out of your way to do what
you've done. I mean -- and then being - also, the
whole program you've got there, being so totally
inconsistent. On one hand you're patting me on the
back and shaking my hand. On the other hand, you're
stabbing me in the side. I mean, this is exactly
what's taking place, especially from last night.
DICK: Steve, though, you know, I, I'm not
here to stab you in the side. I did not stab you in
the side. I will not stab you in --
STEVE: No, your organiza-
DICK: -- the side.
STEVE: I -- you're part of an organization
that you have chose to be part of, so some
responsibility is laid on you. Some is, because --
DICK: Right. I --
STEVE: - you chose to be in thatY
30
organization.
DICK: Yeah. I, I, I'm sitting here
listening to you, Steve, and I -- you know, I can't
help but feel you're trying to put a, a guilt trip on
me.
STEVE: NO, no. I --
DICK: But I'm concerned --
STEVE: No, it was you --
DICK: - with the medical needs --
STEVE: - you -- between you and I and God,
you, you take the responsibility that is yours.
DICK: Steve, it's cold. I'm sure it's cold
and uncomfortable out there. I - we've got some
people that are injured. You know, I'm just sitting
here trying to, to get some help for these people, you
know, to address your medical needs and s- the -- you
know, their safety. I'm as concerned about them and
their well-being as you are. I know it's cold out
there. I know it's uncomfortable. Those children must
-- you know, it must really be uncomfortable for the
children, the kids out there. You know, fortunately,
thank God, you're not injured. You're able to, to
maintain this, you know, this communication line.
What, what, what about the others? If, if Judy, you
know, does not care for medical treatment, what about
-- was it -- I understand Scott, Scott --
0 Q 31
STEVE: Dick, listen --
DICK: -- Senobi or Davey Jones?
STEVE: -- to your -- listen to what you just
said? What an insult it is for me to even sit and
listen to that statement. That is a total fabricated
lie, what you just stated.
DICK: What is?
STEVE: It's not that, that Judy is not
interested in medical attention. She is --
DICK: Well --
STEVE: -- but, but not - let's make it very
plain -- but not on your terms, Dick.
DICK: Well, then --
STEVE: You un-- you understand? Now, let's
not -- when you talk to me, remember --
DICK: Okay. well, let's put it that way.
STEVE: You on one hand --
DICK: She does not want --
STEVE: Listen. On one hand --
DICK: -- medical --
STEVE: -- you say I'm intelligent. On the
other hand, you keep on insulting me by making
statements --
DICK: Well --
STEVE: -- that are --
DICK: -- let me rephrase --
O. Q .2
STEVE: -- incomplete or not true.
DICK: Let me rephrase it then. Perhaps she
does not want med- want or seek medical treatment on
our terms. Is - okay.
STEVE: This is - okay. This is correct.
DICK: Okay. Okay.
STEVE: She chooses to be --
DICK: well, there's nothing I can do.
STEVE: -- here right now because she's an
innocent person. She's never done anything in her life
illegal but maybe get a speeding ticket.
DICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: And you came in and your -- the men
of the other agency shot her, and you should have the,
the decency to show her some trust now by taking care
of that wound of which that agency inflicted upon her,
for no reason under this Constitution or the laws of
this state even that they had a right to do such a
thing.
DICK: Steve, we, we don't need to yell at
each other.
STEVE: Am I getting loud? I'm sorry for
that.
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: I didn't mean to, but I think - it
annoys me --
' _
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK: Sure.~ as
Well, you know, we're --
-- it annoys me when I --
I know we can -- we --
It annoys me when I see her condition
STEVE: You don't have - you're in a warm
place. You don't have the conditions --
DICK: I know all this.
STEVE: You're on that saying come out and so
forth. She's done -- I mean, it's awesome to me. It's
totally amazing.
DICK: well, I'll, I'll -- what about Scott
or -- is it Scott?
STEVE: Scott is sitting right here looking
at me right now.
DICK: Does he need
STEVE: What do
leg. The bullet's in the
DICK: Well, we
STEVE: It wentsome medical treatment?
you -- he was shot in the
leg still, in his, his --
can --
into his hand and wrist area
all the way through to the --
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: -- elbow, from what I understand.
DICK: well, we can get some medical
treatment for him. what, what about him coming out?
34
STEVE: well, we'll send him out then.
DICK: The same, the same thing as
STEVE: Let Ron Engelmand bring his two
surgeons back here again. He --
DICK: Who?
STEVE: -- brought them -- from what I
understand, he brought them down to the blockade, and,
of course, you did not allow them to come in. Can we
DICK: I'm not familiar --
STEVE: would you, would you --
DICK: -- I'm not familiar with the --
STEVE: Well, I am. would you allow the Red
Cross to come in and take care of some of the -- look
at how humanitarian we were to you, to the ATF, and to
their people --
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: -- when we allowed them to
- no, no. We allowed them to come into the
pick up the wounded, carry them off, and all
needed to do, even coming within part of thecome out
complex,
that they
building.
We allowed that. we gave them assurance of their
safety, that they would be able to come in and take
them. And we, we made sure of that. We kept our word.
We meant what we said. And, on the other hand, look at
the way we've been treated by yourself, meaning your
agency.
I'm certain that
OVEIDICK:
STEVE: I hope this --
DICK: ATF --
STEVE: - is reported.
DICK: - is very --
STEVE:
again.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE:Q 35
Well, I I'm glad you -- I'm, I'm,
I want you to listen to this over and
I don't want to have to keep on
repeating myself. You get tired of hearing me. I get
tired of saying the same things. I hate to keep on
getting back to what the issues really are. I don't
wantto get off on tangents, Dick.
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Let, let's get - let's stay right on
line what with what the issues are. You and I have
been
been
seentalking about this word trust
beat to death. And on - and
anything to produce a word ofuntil the word's
we have not really
what the very
meaning and definition means. So, I don't know. If
you've got - I don't know what you might want to talk
to me about right now today, but I, I'm sitting in a
pretty bad position right now with these people, with,
with all of them. And I really don't know what to say
O Q 36
anymore. I'm about run out of words. I'll tell you
the truth.
DICK: Uh-huh. Well, could you maybe run it
by Scott or is it --
STEVE:
and he's --
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
treatment.
DICK:
STEVE:
on, on your very
DICK:
STEVE:He's standing right here listening
Does he want --
shaking his head --
-- medical treatment? No?
well, of course he wants medical
Well --
But he's willing to forego it if it's
narrow terms.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, if he can see -- if you can
show him trust, that you're -- you really are concerned
about him, where you come in via surgeon, take care of
him, and a, and a wholesome person gets to take a day
or two or some time to take a
to show that you
that move. More
think we were in
all resolved. I
could be talking
that could maybelook at it real carefully
had trust in him, maybe he will make
than likely, I think he would. I
the progress to, to really get that
was hoping that ultimately today I
to you about a surgeon or a doctor
take care of a couple people. That
",* .l, 37
would have added to the momentum of, of these people
coming out. But, on the contrary, on the coldest day
of the year your commanders, yourselves involved,
turned off the electricity right in the process of even
communication.
DICK: I -- you know, I -- Steve, make it
clear, I didn't turn it off. I was -- I, I told you
before --
STEVE: No, but - no --
DICK: -- we're -- I know we're repeating
things.
STEVE: when I say -- let's always remember
the generic "you" of which you're part of the
organization.
DICK: Okay. But --
STEVE: If they're not listening --
DICK: - but I was as shocked as, as --
STEVE: If they're not listening to you and
to the other Johns and so forth, it's, it's futile,
isn't it? It's a --
DICK: Well, I -
STEVE: -- foolish, foolish communication
that we're involved in.
DICK: Yeah. Well, I think probably in the
back of their minds -- I say "their" -- the people
running this show, the commanders --
0 Q 38
STEVE: Well -- are they really called -- is
that a word that is, is --
DICK: No. I -- we just say bosses. we
just --
STEVE
DICK:
commanders, but
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVEBosses. Okay.
It's just a -- they're -- they are
But - yeah, but I, I'm glad you --
They're not like me, the --
- didn't -- commanders --
-- commanders, okay?
-- because it reminds me like on
these pseudomovies, you hear about commandos.
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:NO.
You know.
No. No, no.
It - because that's --
That's just --
-- the kind of picture that comes up
It's just a generic --
-- in the mind.
- term. Just a generic term. Okay.
But I think probably what they're thinking of is,
again, we go back, and not to rehash, you know, things
that we've gone over time and time again is that --
O- Q 39
STEVE: But at times --
DICK: -- that everybody said they were
coming out or -- the word we received was everybody
coming out, and, and they haven't come on out. And,
and I think, from our point of view, our -- I say
"ours," the, the commanders point of view, milk has
gone in, the children that have been --
STEVE: Did you say milk has gone in?
DICK: Yes, sir.
STEVE: Yeah, five days --
DICK: Listen.
STEVE: -- after the request.
DICK: Well, I -- well --
STEVE: Then you turned the electricity off
so the milk could curdle into cheese. Go ahead.
DICK: Care has been received for the
children that were, that were released. Okay? We sent
in what we thought were very nice videos and
photographs of the children. we sent the suture kit
in, I think for David's --
STEVE: By the way --
DICK: -- one of his injuries.
STEVE: -- another issue, before I forget,
and, and it's a very --
DICK: And --
STEVE: wait, wait. Let me --
Q ~ 40
DICK: Wait. Now, wait, wait, wait.
STEVE: Dick, let me --
DICK: It's my - I thought it was my turn,
Steve.
STEVE: Can I just add this one? Because
otherwise --
DICK: It's my turn.
STEVE: Oh, you don't -- if you don't want to
hear it, we're going to -- we've got a stalemate. Let
me bring it out. One last thing, okay? I'm not going
to -- I'm going to let you continue, just also we
didn't hear from Ollie, Dick. And it's a big deal to
his sister. It's a big deal to David. Okay. Go ahead
now, just so I didn't forget that issue, because it's a
major one. Now, go ahead.
DICK: Okay. You know how late it was in the
day? And the system, you know, was probably shut down
by the, by the time --
STEVE: You know I acknowledged that and gave
DICK: Oh, okay.
STEVE: - and gave room for that? But I
thought we were still on that --
DICK: Oh, let's - maybe we could address
that here in a minute. We've offered medical help.
we've sent in notes from -- messages from family. I, I
O Q .1
just read you a, a letter, you know, from your sister,
very concerned about
legal representationyour wellbeing and about your
STEVE: Now, you're saying this -- these
attorneys can come to this place where I'm at and start
working with me?
DICK: No,
STEVE: Or
DICK: You
STEVE: --
DICK: You
STEVE: --
telephone?Steve.
are you saying --
have to --
by --
have to --
by telephone? Are you saying by
DICK: Could you -- you would have to come
out. And once you appeared, then you would have legal
representation.
STEVE: I have -- has Ollie been interrogated
with or without an attorney present?
DICK: I, I, I think if -- he may have an
attorney. If he asked for an attorney he had one. I,
I don't know that offhand.
STEVE: Well, I -- of course these people
definitely would want to know that.
DICK: Yeah. I'd have to -- I'd -- Steve,
I'd have to check.
STEVE: And it sounded like, the information
..¢
O Q ,2
I received last night, it sounded like he was taken off
and interrogated without anyone.
DICK: I don't -- if he --
STEVE: I --
DICK: Well, I can assure you --
STEVE: -- I'm not certain.
DICK: Yeah. '
STEVE: But that, that bothered me.
DICK: I, I wasn't there.
STEVE: You, you can find --
DICK: So --
STEVE: - that information. Because, you
know, they need to know that and --
DICK: If he has an attorney. Okay.
STEVE: Present from the time he came out
here that was with him to tell him his rights, to
assist him, to --
DICK: You know, if he, if he didn't have any
money or, or -- you know, he would be appointed a, a, a
defender, public defender from the -- that's part of
the system.
STEVE: This -- in, in this kind of a manner,
even knowing what -- why -- where he's coming from or
not or involvement, is he also read his Miranda rights
right off?
DICK: Yeah-- I, I'm sure he wa-- I say I'm
U Q 43
sure he was. I was not present --
STEVE: -- were --
DICK: -- but I, I think that is one of the,
the basic, you know, precepts. People aren't -- go, go
into custody and they are advised of their Miranda
warnings. And, certainly, if they want, seek
representation from the legal side, they are provided
- let me see here. Somebody just handed me something
here, Steve. Kathy -- yeah, they mentioned the tape
that Kathy did. She pretty well explained that
procedure, if you recall. Do you still have that tape
there or --
STEVE: The one with the
DICK: would you want to
STEVE: The one with the
sitting at a table?
DICK: She talked to you
to you on the phone as well.
STEVE: Um-hum.
DICK: Right?review it?
little boy in it
on the - she talked
STEVE: I don't recall her mentioning the
very questions I just asked about the interrogation of
Ollie or reading the Miranda rights, having to --
DICK: Ollie, I think --
STEVE: --
DICK: Ollie was not out yet or did not come
O Q 4.
out --
STEVE
That's what I'm
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
and get back --
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
on the --
STEVE
DICK:
are we --
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
fromBut I need to know those things.
saying.
well --
You know.
Okay. Let me check on that for you
Yes.
-- with you?
Please do.
Okay. Okay. Well, where are we now
You tell me. I --
-- on med- on medical help? Sta--
with medical help?
- at a stalemate on that?
Positively. Because there is no --
-- I've talked to Scott. I talked to Judy. I
talked to David. And, let's see, who else was injured?
I talked to Dave Jones. And none of them will
negotiate their being wounded for anything or any
reason at this point of time. They all let me know
that they're waiting, just like --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- originally from that Tuesday,
0 Q ,5
they're waiting. And Judy told me very clearly. I
couldn't talk her out of it, like I told you. But if
her finger did turn into gangrene or infection, it got
into the blood stream, she's willing to go that way.
She's put God first in her life. I've known her all
these years.
DICK: Uhhuh;
STEVE: That's what she chooses. I can't do
anything else. You know, I can't - I, I can't.
DICK: Well, maybe, you know --
STEVE: I could, I could cry to her. I could
tug on her. It doesn't -- she's going to do what she
feels she has to do. She told me she fears God first.
She said she doesn't have the fear of man as she does
of God. She fears God. And she knows that there's a
will; he's manifested his will. It's very clearly laid
out in a book called the giblg. She wants to follow it
through. She's looking for greater and better things
that last forever. That's where she stands. She,
she's very un-- upset and disgruntled about you people,
about the way the system's been to her after paying
taxes all these years, about her supporting freedom,
the Constitution. And her day when she's been
innocent, and God knows the whole story, she's not been
given the help that she's needed. Only under very
extreme conditions of where she's to come into the
O. Q .6
hands of another agency that seems to be back in the
other one of which caused her the problem. That's
where she stands. That's basically --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- what she told me.
DICK: All right. Okay.
STEVE: S0, she's --
DICK: Okay, Steve.
STEVE: ~ she's still waiting to see if you
people are humanitarian enough - if you don't send in
a, a doctor, that if you wouldn't let -- allow the Red
Cross, if you wouldn't allow Ron Engelmand with his two
surgeons to come in and take care of her wound. She
said it may help her to think these issues over more
clearly, but right now she's pretty well set on the one
issue.
DICK: Okay. All right. Steve, let me check
concerning Ollie and, you know, what - exactly where
he is in the system, and I can get back with you later.
Okay?
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: Okay, Steve. Well, thank you.
STEVE: Talk to you later. Bye.
DICK: Byebye.
*****
End of Tape #124!
. A .1
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF.ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #125
March 13, 1993
3:52 p.m. - 9:54 p.m.
O Q 2
Tape 125!
STEVE: Hello?
DICK: Hello, Steve?
STEVE: Xes.
DICK: Yeah, yeah, Dick. How you doing?
STEVE: All right. How, I, I did find out
that Ollie has an attorney as does Kathy and at this
point, you know, their legal needs are being well
represented and both are being treated as material
witnesses. Of course, we already knew that, and
they're going to have a bond hearing.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: At this point or at least as far as I
know or have been able to find out there are no other
criminal charges pending. So that's kind of where that
is.
STEVE: Okay. Was he interrogated without an
attorney?
DICK: He was interviewed. He was
Mirandized, you know, advised of his rights as, you
know, set forth a standard form and he was interviewed.
And then --
STEVE: who was he interviewed by?
DICK: By the Texas Rangers. Now, that
was -- you know, I think I'd already left, you know,
but I know he was interviewed by the Rangers and I, I
was gone by then.
STEVE: Okay. You had, you had said
something to me earlier about the part of the Texas
9. Q 3
Rangers I believe didn't you?
DICK: Right.
STEVE: What was that again? I can't really
-- I don't recall. ~ _
DICK: Right. Well, I think we had talked
about the crime scene and, and the property or land --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: -- being returned back and they would
have to conduct a crime scene and, you know --
STEVE: what are the Texas Rangers really
like, I mean, in relation to a Sheriff's Department or
relation to federal agencies?
DICK: Well, they're the state -- they
represent the State of Texas and they are their --
STEVE: Are they like --
DICK: -- criminal investigators. '
STEVE: Are they more like other states would
have your state police maybe or --
DICK: Yes. They're, they're the
investigative branch of the state police --
STEVE: I see.
DICK: -- Texas Department of Public Safety,
right. Right.
STEVE: I went and peeked in to see David. "
DICK: Uh-huh. _ ,
STEVE: And the only thing he said -- he only
gave me one word. He said electricity.
DICK: I see.
STEVE: That's, that's all he said to me.K-'1-
0 o., 4
DICK: Okay. All right. Well, I, I wanted
to, you know, mention again our offer of medical
treatment and I know, you know, it's, it's not
acceptable to you at this time so but I, I did want to
mention that and throw that back out.
STEVE: Well, remember when you say, when you
say you you're talking about the individuals because
it'stheir choice --
DICK: Yes .
STEVE: -- not mine.
DICK: Certainly, certainly, certainly.
STEVE: So in other words you took the issues
that you and I discussed and about like Ron Engleman
with his offer and about the Red Cross and so forth,
you took that to them and it's no issue?
DICK: That's correct.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: Right.
STEVE: I'll past that on to them.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: And let's see, so -- and Ollie, we
never got to hear his voice so I'll pass that on also
even
John
me.
he's
partthough that was part of what John -- second John,
Dolan and I had spoke about which was assured to
So I'll pass that on also. _ ,
DICK: Yeah, my understanding is, Steve, that
in court now or having a bond hearing as we speak.
STEVE: Okay. well, just so - remember that
of it was that he was to call back here.
Q D _ 5
DICK: Okay. I yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not
aware of that or I don't remember that.
STEVE: Yeah, right. Well, it's for Kathy
which she did do and that's what helped a lot with
Ollie going yesterday. D
DICK: Oh, I oh.
STEVE: So see, the next three were going to
go out very rapidly also. I mean, the thing that
really shocked David and myself last night was we
thought -- and it was like this thing was starting to
roll and --
DICK: Well, Kathy - you know, I think we
pretty held up our bargain as far as Kathy was
concerned. That was my understanding, that it was for,
you know, the call back and, and --
STEVE: And that was true for Ollie.
DICK: -- for Kathy. Well, I don't know.
STEVE: Because these other two, these other
two guys they kept -- they -- right now even as I went
and talked with them, as I went in to speak with the,
they asked - that was the first thing they asked me,
they asked me over and over again, did I hear from
Oliver, has he called yet? That was the main thing on
their mind - .
DICK: Oh, well --
STEVE: - the main thing. -And of course I
had to tell them no, he hasn't but of course he might
be going through some kind of a process so I didn't cut
it off that the wouldn't or that you wouldn't have him5-L
or at 6
still do so. So I said, well, I don't know yet because
I, I didn't want to make it worse than what it really
is. And to me it's worse than what I've made them or
told them. .
DICK: Okay. Well, I, I --
STEVE: It's just the fact that you guys did
what you did with the electricity like last night and
so forth after one way you were talking so decent to us
and I thought things were going so well. I mean, of
course now I don't really think that David will be
talking to you people anymore at all.
DICK: Okay. Well, I just wanted to relay
that, you know, our medical offer is still good.
STEVE: That means -- that -- but, you know,
because of -- that's why I wanted you to hear me so
clearly when I talked to you before: what you're saying
to me, what I'm to pass on to these individuals that
were wounded. You're actually insulting them. You're
saying nothing to them.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Of course it would be good, we could
walk out here and go to wherever and it would be good,
of course doctors are always going to want to heal and
help the sick, of course Dick you're saying nothing to
me. And if we would have known this maybe, maybe we
should have taken a different attitude to the wounded
that were on our property back to weeks ago Sunday.
DICK: Okay. Well, you know, if --
STEVE: I mean, is that - I mean, you,
you're showing me such a - an inhumanitarian concept
here like I'd never seen in this country, seriously.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: It helps me to understand more about
your agency, it really does.
DICK: Okay. Well, Steve, if, if, if --
STEVE: Okay, Dick -- you call me when you
feel like it and we'll --
DICK: Well --
STEVE: - we'll talk some more words.
DICK: If anybody has any questions, you
know, we're here 24 hours a day, just, you know, give
us a call let us know.
STEVE: Hey, I really doubt that they, I
really doubt that they do.
DICK: If they want to come out let us know.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: Okay. Bye.
STEVE: See you.
Phones hung up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Indiscernible!
DICK: Much better. Spoken to other agent!
STEVE: Okay. Is this Dick?
DICK: Yes.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: How you doing?
STEVE: The same.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: What's -- I just -- the phone rang:_'--
1 about three, four times. I picked it up. It seemed. - 8
2 like someone was on but it didn't seem like there was
3 much of a connection. I don't know. Did you call?
4 DICK: No; no, it wasn't us at all, no.
5 STEVE: Oh, it wasn't?
6 DICK: No, sir, no, it was not us.
7 STEVE: Well, that is strange.
8 DICK: Yeah.
9 STEVE: Somebody called. Someone got through
10 on this line and I don't know what. It was kind of
11 weird. I thought that was you calling.
12 DICK: No, uh-uh, no.
13 STEVE: Okay. I thought I'd give you a call
14 back thinking that you called so I guess --
15 DICK: Okay. How, how is everybody, okay?
16 STEVE: The same.
17 DICK: All right.
18 STEVE: Everything has remained about the
19 same.
20 DICK: Okay. All right. Well, it, it wasn't
21 us, Steve.
22 STEVE: Okay.
23 DICK: Okay.
24 STEVE: Bye.
25 ' DICK: Bye-bye.
Phones hung up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Indiscernible!
MIKE: It's Mike.
STEVE: Mike?>4»
0 QT 9
MIKE: Yes.
STEVE: Mike. You're a new person.
MIKE: I'm a new person. I've been here
listening here with you.
STEVE: You have been?
MIKE: I have, Steve. How are you doing?
STEVE: Did someone call here about a half
hour ago? Someone just came and got me and said the
phone rang about I guess about six times or something.
MIKE: No, no, we did not.
STEVE: What, what - see now, you would know
more than I would what kind of line we have these days.
I was under, under the impression that it went directly
to you or something to that or --
MIKE: Yes, that's correct, Steve, yeah. We,
we haven't changed the line.
STEVE: Well, that is -- see, twice today now
-- this afternoon there was three rings, I picked it up
and then after I was on I said hello, hello, someone
put it down. So I called back. It was Jack that told
me you had not called and then just about a half hour
ago it rang about six times.
MIKE: Hmm.
STEVE: And someone else went to pick it up.
here. when they picked it up there was no one on the
line. k
MIKE: No, that was not us. We haven't
changed a thing in all these days.
STEVE: Strange.
O ~ U» lo
I'd check
calling heMIKE: Yeah.
STEVE: Okay. Well, that's what -- I thought
back to see what was -- if someone was
re or what it was.
MIKE: No, we have not.
now it's v
evening an
David and
sleep. He
I told him
was - the
last night
got off thSTEVE: Okay.
MIKE: How you doing?
STEVE: Well, it's very -- where I'm at right
ery dark.
MIKE: Okay.
STEVE: But how am I doing? It's a cool
d physically I guess we're doing fine.
MIKE: All right. Good to hear it.
STEVE: Yeah. Other than I was talking with
he was asking me - he came around out of
was asking me what, what's been happening.
more or less from this morning -- well, he
last time I was really talking with him was
about oh, I think it was just when John Cox
e phone with him.
MIKE: Right.
which he d
11:15 when
back, he nSTEVE: He said he was going to call him back
idn't do. we called him instead at about
lights went out.
MIKE: Right, sure, sure. _
STEVE: And he said he was going to call us
ever did. And then this morning of course I
was woke up by a third John and then Dick talked to me.
MIKE: No, that was John 1 this morning,
I Q 11
Steve.
STEVE: It was?
MIKE: Sure. Early, at 6 o'clock?
STEVE: Oh, really?
MIKE: That was the return call that John
wanted to make to you, John 1.
STEVE: Oh, I was told that it was John - I
think he told me it was John 3.
MIKE: No, no, that was John 1.
STEVE: It was pretty I guess so maybe I
wasn't totally with it then. I don't know.
MIKE: Yeah. No, that was John 1 and that's,
that's the call that I think you misassumed he was, you
know, going to call you back and didn't and that's the,
the call he did make.
STEVE: Are you, are you talking about like
this morning like about oh --
MIKE: 6 o'clock.
STEVE: 6 o'clock?
MIKE: Yeah.
STEVE: Boy, I don't even recall.
MIKE: Yeah. You were pretty sleepy when you
picked it up.
STEVE: Must have been.
MIKE: Yeah.
STEVE: Must have been. I was under the
impression the person said they were John -- a third
John or something.
MIKE: N0.
Q
STEVE
MIKE:
STEVE
MIKE:
STEVE
MIKE:
know, that we've
also --
STEVE
MIKE:U 1.
I'm almost sure.
No.
were you there?
Yes, I was.
I see.
Yeah. We want you to know, too, you
received wrong number calls in here
I see.
-- on the same phone system and it's
not something you should worry about.
STEVE: Okay.
MIKE: You know, if we, we call, you know,
we'll let it ring until something picks it up.
STEVE: Okay. when I was last talking, I
think it was with John, he was going to get back to me
about information when Dick got on the phone and it
seems like we went around and around for a while and
always getting back to like John Dolan --
MIKE: Okay.
STEVE: -- we had such an awesome relation
for about two, three days there. I must honestly say
again and admit that I thought this was going to be
quickly resolved. It was just starting to open up. I
had opportunity with these people like I've not had --
MIKE:Yeah. D '
STEVE: -- really ever.
MIKE: So did we, so did we, Steve.
STEVE: Well, I know, what the strange thing_ .
U Q 13
to me was what Dick was telling me
is that in essence you people, theand sharing with me
negotiators had
really no input with what took place. And in fact, he
said -- we were talking about those that were coming
out. In fact, the thing that really disappointed me
more than anything was this morning, they were already
planning on being out between 9:00 and 10 o'clock.
MIKE: Right. That's how we left it this
morning when, you know, we went off, were certain that
they were also.
STEVE: So then when the
at 11:15 and then what did -- I --
even remember what John said to me
me at 6 o'clock basically what was
even recall the conversation.electricity went off
in truth I don't
this -- if he called
he saying? I don't
MIKE: we basically wanted to, to reassure
you that we did try to have an input into that decision
but the decision was not ours to make.
' STEVE: I see.
MIKE: And we wanted to reinforce that, that
we gave it, gave it our best.
the, into the people that make theWe do have inputs into
decisions and we
relay to them your concerns as well as our concerns
on a, on a major decision.
STEVE: Umhum.
MIKE:
we did not have, have the final say
STEVE:And the one last night was not our
It is so funny that after what was
all gained yesterday and the good attitude between --6-;
O Q» 1.
it, it was a shock, it was like having the rug pulled
out from under me, it really was. I really had the
confidence and the momentum really believing that, you
know, it was really -- the way the people were reacting
to me, the way we were sitting down talking and
it --
MIKE: Right.all of
STEVE: -- I really thought this was going to
be really something that would be really picking up
quickly.
MIKE: Right, and so we, we were.
STEVE: And that's what I, that's why
my thoughts to Dick about how these men must be
and insight and wisdom because, I mean, if they
have been monitoring the conversations from the
couple days and how it was starting to pick up,
even said I, I thought it was going to
snowball --
MIKE: Um-hum.
STEVE: - really did.related
lacking
would
last
and I
MIKE: Right, we talked about that and we
know you're, you're trying very hard to, to continue
the --
STEVE: Like even right now --
~ MIKE: - the negotiations just by
communicating with us. »
STEVE:, I don't even know what - my next
step, I told Dick, I really didn't even know what to
do, I don't know how to even begin with these people
O Q,
now. It's like I'm at a loss. I went and talked to_ . 15
them in the last couple hours. I talked to Brad
Branch, I talked with Kevin, and they're not even
communicating with me.
MIKE: Hmm.
STEVE: They're not even communicating with
me. And I says, are, are you still contemplating it,
are you thinking about it? They said look, if Ollie
didn't call back they said we were going to go right
out when we heard from Ollie that's why for sure we
were - we thought he'd be calling by the morning
sometime, we were planning on moving out and that's
what they told me. And I -- and then they asked me
again, they heard you called or that Dick called a few
times and they said did Ollie, was he on the line? So,
you know, they, they still ask me the question, they
still ask me the question.
MIKE: Sure, well --
STEVE: So, of course, I says, well, they
tell me that he's okay but no, he wasn't on the line.
And so from there they says well, we'll talk to you
later if, if something better develops. And I said,
well, that's about the place it was left at least.
MIKE: Right, but was their decision based '
entirely on whether or not Ollie was going to call
them? p '
STEVE: Well, I didn't realize that; see,
Mike, at first. You know, I -- you know, they don't
always - you know, some people are not communicators,
U Q 16
they don't really ~ like, like for instance, Kevin's
not a real talker.
MIKE: Right.
STEVE: And I tried to get out of him just
what he'd thought about it. He didn't say much other
than he had made up his mind that he would be coming
out. But then last night when that happened and then
also with that, with Ollie not calling apparently that
was a bigger thing to him than I thought. I didn't, I
didn't -- in fact, the truth is I even forgot about it,
I really did. But as soon as I went, I went to where
they were that's the first thing they asked me and then
I forgot about it the second time I think I talked to
Dick.
MIKE: Umhum.
STEVE: But then of course I finally said to
him -- I brought it up to him at some time at one of
those conversations. And I thought - and in fact even
I, I said I was not in a hurry, just at some point of
time it would make it a lot easier for me working with
these people if they would have heard -- if somebody
would have heard his voice, me or anybody, his sister,
it wouldn't really matter, but that
would - you know, it'd go a long way with, you know,.
strengthening the confidence in a lot of these people
and -- -
MIKE: Right.
STEVE: that's what I was -- actually, you
know, working with John the last couple of days it
D _ ' . 17
didn't seem like that was even a problem whatsoever.
MIKE: Hmm.
STEVE: So that's what surprised me about,
you know, the electricity last night and then of course
him not calling back. The magazines never showed up,
such a small thing, it's no big deal, it's just the
whole -- the, the principle of the matter.
MIKE: Yeah.
STEVE: So it was, it was things like that
that people are looking at and wondering. And so to
tell you the truth, they all thought -- because I kept
on passing through the last two or three days, the
great conversations we were happening - having and I
just kept on trying to talk as positive with a smile as
I could and --
MIKE: No, we realize you're doing that and
we appreciate that and we just --
STEVE: SO --
MIKE: -- to, to work harder to get it, to
get it --
STEVE: What, what do we -- how - what, what
-- any suggestions for me?
MIKE: Well, we need to keep working at it
and we're -- you know, we're literally looking out here
for a sign that, you know, David and everyone is
serious about encouraging people to leave that -- we
talked about credibility on both ends and, and we need
that credibility.
p STEVE: Exactly.
"l, .'h 13
MIKE2 But --
STEVE: But of course, you know, like I was
trying to share with Dick, it's such a different thing
being on, on this side especially with people that have
never been in trouble before with such apprehension. I
mean, if I were over on that side I mean I would be
trying every avenue myself, I would try to -- I mean,
just basically what you guys probably are doing. I
mean --
MIKE: Sure we are, sure we are.
STEVE: So but at the same time I never would
have dreamed I would be in a position where I'm trying
to talk someone for their life or trying to gain
confidence from someone to, to be involved in a
situation so off-the-wall, so weird and bizarre. So,
but you know, I mean --
MIKE: Yeah.
STEVE: - I haven't, I haven't quit or
anything, but it's exasperating and it's --
MIKE: We know that, we know that you're
working hard.
STEVE: -- it's really rough.
MIKE: Yes. No, I understand that.
STEVE: I mean, the best phrase I could ever
say or use though is having the carpet pulled out from
under one. I mean, I, I could think of no better
phrase. '
MIKE: Yeah, well, yeah, but you again have
to understand the decision to -- -
O D.
STEVE: I'm, I'm surprised that as many guyst . 1 9
as yourself and Gary, Dick, Henry, all of you guys with
-- after talking to us that you wouldn't have had
stronger input with whoever is in charge or the so-
called commanders or bosses. I mean, it, it amazes me
especially with - I would have thought the, the great
development that really started especially yesterday,
well, the night before, but right yesterday, I knew for
sure today would be at least three. I was already
talking to a few more. I was talking to Pablo but he
said - at first he says let me do a film, and I
couldn't even do that film with him today, he asked me,
because there was no electricity.
MIKE: Um-hum. what, a video?
STEVE: Yeah, exactly.
MIKE: Yeah.
STEVE: So that cut that off, it cut off any
opportunity to send out anything like that, and so I
mean we're - I don't know. It's like one really
doesn't really have the tools that I had in the, in the
days past. So no ability to show a video. You sent --
in fact, the people here never got to see Kathy because
it came in late last night. David got to see it and
then the electricity went off -- '
MIKE: Umhum. _
STEVE: -- so it was totally for naught.
MIKE: So only a small number of people saw
the videos?
STEVE: Only David, myself and one other_.-
0 O: 2.
person happened to be right there.
MIKE: Umhum.
STEVE: And he was just handing it to me to
give to someone else to go and let the rest of the
mothers and the people see it; they never got to. So I
mean, I mean, everything what happened from that time
after was like whatever tools I had been - what I was
using and working with to talk to these people it was
like taken from me.
MIKE: Right. Yeah. Well, there, there just
appears to be different personalities, different
concepts here and, and we're only one part of the
overall picture here.
STEVE: Um-hum.
MIKE: But --
STEVE: Well, if you have any ideas or
explanations or what you mean by that or what -- how
they think or what they want to do or what, what I can
be working with or how, I mean I've got ears to hear.
MIKE: Okay. Well, we're again looking for a
sign. we've had significant progress over the last few
days until, you know, what happened last night.
STEVE: I'll tell you the truth, David - I,
I -- no kidding, hey, he was blown away when he had --
we -- he was -- he actually - I never saw him be so
upbeat since this all began as last night.
MIKE: .That's good.
STEVE: And he thought --
MIKE: Happy to hear that.
iC Q_ 21
STEVE: In fact, he was happy for these
people that they were -- they had made their choice,
they were going to follow through and all of a sudden
11:15 he was just saying a few words to me, I just
happened to be sitting over by his bed where he was.
He was just telling me a few things, we were waiting
for John to call back, he said he'd be calling back,
when all of a sudden bingo, and all of a sudden no
lights, no anything, I couldn't see him. And then we
sat in the dark for an hour waiting for John's return
call which never came. And I says, well, I don't know
about you but I'm turning in and from there, well, you
know the rest what has happened. So --
MIKE: Okay. Well, John -- my understanding
wpa John was going to call back if there was something
positive that happened --
STEVE: I see.
MIKE: - after the power was off and we, you
know, may have misinterpreted that situation, but --
STEVE: So Mike, have you been around for the
last two weeks yourself then or --
MIKE: I've been here about a week.
STEVE: About a week?
MIKE: Right.
STEVE: I see, okay. ,
MIKE: But again, we're, we're looking, you
know, for a positive sign and my understanding based
on, on the discussions with Dick this afternoon that
perhaps the one that we should both be considering is,
I Q! 22
is the medical treatment for, for Judy and, and/or
Scott.
STEVE: See, well, the hardest thing with
that, I mean just I.-- you know, that's where I mean I
don't -- I mean, you know, you can suggest things to
people. Judy's got a --
MIKE: Right. That's what we do here --
STEVE: Yeah. Judy's got --
MIKE: - to our bosses.
STEVE: - a very
to what she thinks is right
the years me being spending
when it came down to issuesstrong will when it comes
and wrong and even through
all these years with her
to do with life and death
or eternal things, I mean, she's been very, very
adamant about what she believes in. Even when I first
met David six and a half years ago and we were
listening to him I kind of listened more than she did
originally, then she started -~ and then we started
talking back and forth about it raising a lot of
questions. And in the process I always told her look,
if you believe it or you see it go with it, don't wait
for me, you're dealing with - if you and I believe
there's a God, we're dealing with eternal issues. So
we agreed that if she saw it she would go with it, if¢I
saw it I'd go with it otherwise we'd part company or
try -- somehow try to work it out from there. But from
that time and from the time I met her years ago she's
always been one that if she saw something as being
right she would hang onto it. And so where she's at
u " 23
now, she's been watch
to like Kathy and to
MIKE: Yeah
STEVE: Par
MIKE: It'S
STEVE: Tha
MIKE: Sure
STEVE: --
yesterday.
MIKE: Sure
STEVE: She
in the day how it was
and my conversation,ing and observing what's happening
Oliver and --
, it's been all positive.
don? _
been all positive.
t's what she told me --
when I was talking to her
, she asked me two or three times
going and I told her about John
they all had smiles around here.
I mean, it was so different from what it had been. It
was so different. An
end of the day when D
once or twice went in
looked pretty good --
MIKE: Good
STEVE: --
good. And then John
wasn't feeling the gr
then he says sure. S
video on of a number
had a smile because,
another -- it's like
picturing a person's
like. So, but I ~-
MIKE: Butd that's why I say when toward the
avid was finally coming around I
and talked with him and, and he
and the, the attitude was real
said, well, can I talk to him. He
eatest still but, you know, and
o, from there we turned -- put the
of the guys over there and he even
you know, you never know what
you don't come close in your mind
voice to what they really look
you could with a video, right?
0 Q, _ 24
STEVE: Oh, yeah, but, it -- you know, it was
all -- it seemed like such a good day, it seemed like
such a good day.
MIKE: Well, it was, it was, but have you
considered the previous issue of, of the medical
treatment and, and possibly those people who had made
the decision to come out to reconsider as part of the
package in, in getting Scott and --
STEVE: Yeah --
MIKE: -- Judy treated?
STEVE: -- well, even before I talked to
David I went to talk with them and the -- let me tell
you this: I talked to Brad -- I didn't talk to Rita too
much -- but I talked to Brad and to, to Kevin and they
didn't seem to show that much of an interest even
though I told them what was offered. I told them what
was offered about Judy going out there, having a doctor
look at her finger and, and doing the best he could to
fix it or to take care of it --
MIKE: Sure.
STEVE: - for them to come out. And they --
that's when they, they really didn't want to talk much
about it they said. Well, they said because of last
night, because of what, what, what's happened since '
that time we want some time to think about it and
that's when he said to me my main thing; I says, what's
that; he says, well, my main thing is you are no one
has heard from Oliver. And I says, well, I did talk to
Dick and because of the late processing last night the
Q Q 25
time he got there they kind of let me know that, that
it would probably be today. And it, it sounded like
through Doug besides John that that would not be really
a problem. But because so much time went on and it
seemed to degenerate today then all of a sudden their
attitude even changed all the more.
MIKE: Hmm.
STEVE: So that's what -- I mean, but I did
spend time with them three times minimum today, three
times, for quite a bit of time, a good time period.
And Judy, she just -- she was sick today. For the
first time she, she told me this morning she was very
sick.
MIKE: How so? What happened or how does she
feel?
STEVE: Well, I think probably because of
the, the finger, maybe infection, I don't know.
MIKE: Did she say anything in particular
about --
STEVE: Did she what?
MIKE: Any, any specifics of how she was
feeling poorly?
STEVE: She said that her eyes were kind of
aching and feeling heavy along with she had a little .
bit of nausea.
MIKE: Okay. -
STEVE: And so I, I went and asked one of the
nurses to take a look at her, but of course they don't
have the ability to really know -- .>..'-
O Q» ,6
MIKE: Sure. '
STEVE: -4 what to do about the finger.
MIKE: There's all the more reason that, you
know, she should be -- get the treatment that she
needs, Steve, you know.
STEVE: But, you know, and I told her that.
I mean, you know, I can tell her many times. She's the
one that's got the finger and the problem.
MIKE: Right.
STEVE: But she says that she, she -all that
she was basing her decisions on were watching Oliver,
watching this, this progression and the momentum from
yesterday. And she said she's, she's pretty strong
about waiting to see how it develops before she makes
her decision.
MIKE: But it's -- you know, it's a, it's a
no, no-loss situation for her to winwin if she'll come
out, get the treatment and if she makes the decision
she'll be able to return --
STEVE: She --
MIKE: -- back into the camp.
STEVE: She -- I think she's a little bit
like me in the way that she doesn't -- she feels like
until a lot more people go out and she can - she's a"
lot like me, she's very helpful, does -<-she does a lot
for people, is always helping and, and I think she
wants to see a lot more people be able to get their,
their thing together and maybe make a move. But it's
like she don't want to be, you know, one of the first
U Q 27
ones to just run out on everybody when there's people
still so apprehensive and afraid that it
they're frozen and can't move. So she's
-- she spends a lot_of time talking with
people here as well -- l
MIKE: Well, that's good. You
need --
STEVE: - and very upbeat, so
MIKE: Good. We need her helps almost like
been actually
a lot of
know, we
and we need
your, your help to, to get this -- get, get it moving
again really from your end to break this impasse.
STEVE: Well, I don't know what to do now
though, Mike, that's the whole thing. I mean, the, the
electricity was -- it was more not because we can't
handle it, it's not a big deal. I mean, we've got
flashlights, lanterns --
MIKE: Umhum.
STEVE: -- diesel, you know, all that kind of
thing. And it was just the whole -- the idea of doing
it especially after the, the time spent in the day over
the last few days. So, I mean, it was -- to David it
was extremely insulted because, I mean, he - I guess
it, it was a shock, it was a surprise to him just like
it was to me. And apparently it was to John too, he .
seemed pretty surprised by it.
MIKE: Right. Well, we all truthfully were
and as I said, we, we --
STEVE: I said -- I called him up and I says
what's happening; he says what do you mean; I says the5;-
lI" II, 2s
electricity, the lights.
MIKE: Right, oh, I was here, I was right
next to him listening.
STEVE: Qh, you were huh?
MIKE: Sure, I've, I've been right at the
same table about --
STEVE: Yeah .
MIKE: -- two feet away and, and we were --
STEVE: That's sort of like this afternoon
Dick was asking me what's happening and I says, well, I
had talked to David once again and he only said one
word to me and that was the --
MIKE: Electricity.
STEVE: Yeah.
MIKE: Right.
STEVE: Exactly.
MIKE: Right.
STEVE: And he was -- he seemed even annoyed
with me because I, I went to talk with him, it was like
he didn't hardly want to give me the time of day.
MIKE : Hmm .
STEVE: So I don't know.
MIKE: Well, will you think about our offer,
you know, for treatment? And, you know, we're -- -
STEVE: well, I -- _
MIKE: -- not obligating anybody.
STEVE: See, if it was me - you know, if it
was me and the offer was given to me it would be so
simple. I could talk to you directly --
0 Q 29
MIKE: Right. -
STEVE: -- about myself and, you know, it'd
be my move. But for me - it's, it's like who can help
me out here to try to get these people to gain trust
and to get them moving in that direction?
MIKE: Right.
STEVE: Who's here to help me? What, what --
MIKE: Well, we're here to help you, I'm here
to help you, Steve.
STEVE: Yeah, but no, you aren't.
MIKE: we need your help too though.
STEVE: The electricity, also not having
Ollie speak through the, the phone. And where's the
"Newsweek" magazines? Even something as small as that.
It, it just showed that there was such a momentum
beginning to take place, I, I, I swear it. I mean,
I'm, I'm sure that John and those -- the guys that were
involved especially yesterday and the day before, they
must have noted it. I mean, if they would have been
here they would have seen it clearly.
MIKE: Right. No, we're aware.
STEVE: I mean, if you go back and review the
conversations of yesterday and the day before, I mean
you should be able to detect it. -
MIKE: Right. No, I agree. U
STEVE: And then I just kept right on talking
to people, more people, and I mean I Rita was a new
name that originally wasn't given but I talked to her
and it seemed like there was -- like she was making the
O O: U 3,,
move and, and I really - on the whole, you know, you
don't like to give names out ahead of time because I'm
not -- you know, one isn't saying well, they're coming
right out tonight and it was -- I was trying to let
John know I'm talking to them and the signs are there
and they're, they're verbally coming across to me that
they're showing an interest for that now. And so
that's why like for this morning still they let me know
clearly last night when I last saw them that they would
be out before noon, they told me clearly, and the first
one wanted to leave, if not all of them together, right
around after 9:00, between 9:00 and 10:00.
.MIKE: Right.
STEVE: Because, you know, the worship time
we have --
MIKE: That's --
STEVE: - is that onehour period
MIKE: Sure. No, we anticipated them and we
were ready to welcome them out of, out of the camp.
STEVE: Well, I -- right at this moment I
don't know what to --
MIKE: Very surprised when they didn't come.
STEVE: -- you know, I don't know
because, you know, the "Newsweek" magazines
showed, Ollie never called, the electricity
off. I -- really, I don't know what to say
don't.
MIKE: Yeah, well --
STEVE: I don't know what kind ofwhat to say
never -
was shut
yet, I
a positive
.. A r 31
sign you want to give me to work with with these
people, if it's encouraging Judy to leave here to get
her finger taken care of or whatever, I mean it looks
like you've given me something like -- that I can't
work because I've tried and it seems like that's a
dead-end street right now.
MIKE: Well, how about with Scott? Is Scott
as adamant about it as Judy?
STEVE: Well, Scott, see, he's, he's not --
he doesn't have, he doesn't have the kind of physical
problems. You know, I mean, he's, he's got a bullet in
his thigh, it's near the surface of the skin.
MIKE: Right, but his wrist is not in the
best shape in, in the longer --
STEVE: It, it's not - but he -- it's, it's
been checked and looked at and it doesn't seem like it
has any infection or there doesn't seem to be really
any problem with it. It doesn't seem to be broke
anyway.
MIKE: Well, that's not the indicator we get
from the doctor that --
STEVE: Oh, is that right?
MIKE: Yes .
STEVE: Well then maybe you know more about-
it than I because I haven't - ,
MIKE: Yeah.
STEVE: -- you know, I haven't - I asked him
from time to time but it didn't -- he never told me the
conversation of last night. >_'>-
Q 32
MIKE: Oh, okay. Well no, the, the doctor
is, is very certain that some of the bones in the wrist
have been broken --
STEVE: Really?
MIKE: -- aha the, aha the --E
STEVE: Because all he has is -- you know,
he's got --
MIKE: Yes.
STEVE: -- only gauze wrapped around it -
slightly.
MIKE: Right.
STEVE: It's not like he's got it in a cast
or like he's got it set or anything, so --
MIKE: And, and the chance for infection
internally in that same wrist are, you know, are very
good --
STEVE: I see.
MIKE: -- if, if it's not treated and
literally sooner the better for the treatment.
STEVE: In fact, he's standing right here by
me. He's got a -- he just turned a flashlight on his
wrist looking at it. Scott, so the doctor said that
you probably have --
SCOTT: A broken arm.
- STEVE: A broken arm?
SCOTT: At last one bone, bone is broken.
STEVE:_ Does it feel like that from what you,
what you described and what he told you or --
SCOTT: Well, if I turn it a certain way it hurts.
O DI
Feels like there's something wrong with it., . 3 3
STEVE: Hmm .
SCOTT: The wound itself doesn't hurt.
STEVE: The wound itself doesn't hurt he
said.
MIKE: Right, but the doctor also explained
why it would not and if he's taking any antibiotics
which, which he said --
STEVE: Mike, what I could --
MIKE: -- that he is --
STEVE: -- maybe what -- I should maybe just
pass the phone to you, that way you can try. You know,
I mean I've talked with him of course through the day.
It'd probably be better for you to go one-on-one maybe
with him.
MIKE: Sure, sure. Be happy to.
STEVE: Okay, and if -- I'll be nearby so if
he's off the phone if you wanted to continue talking
just have him call me back then.
MIKE: Okay. Good, Steve.
STEVE: Here, here he is.
SCOTT: He wants to talk to me?
STEVE: Well, he -- you know, he's got maybe
an offer for you or something indiscernible!. '
SCOTT: It's hard to see without lights.
Hello?
MIKE: Scott? How --
SCOTT: Yeah. who is this now?
MIKE: This is Mike.X
1
1
92
I QT .4
SCOTT: Oh, Mike?
MIKE: Yes.
SCOTT: Mike No. 1, right?
MIKE: Mike No. 1.
SCOTT: Laughter!
MIKE: I'm the guy. How you doing?
MIKE: I'm going okay so far. I'm freezing
my, my hands numb but other than that I'm fine.
MIKE: Your hand is numb from the cold or
otherwise?
SCOTT: Yeah, from the cold.
MIKE: Okay. Well, you know, apparently
Steve was not aware of what the doctor and, and you
discussed. I was here with, with the doctor last
night -~
SCOTT: Uhhuh.
MIKE: - and -~
SCOTT: Oh, you were there too?
MIKE: Sure. I've been here for, for several
days, just have been on the phone.
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: But, you know, it's my understanding
that listening to how you described your hand and the
doctor's response and, and his statements to us after.
that phone call is that, that you in all probability
has a broken bone in, in the wrist and that the change
of infection is --
SCOTT: Oh, yeah --
MIKE: - is there.
"l ' ".l" as
SCOTT: -- I wouldn't be surprised.
Laughter!
MIKE: Yeah, and the longer you, you go
untreated with that the harder it's going to get to,
to --
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: you know, full function with it.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: And, you know, you really need to make
a decision, you know, now to, to really help yourself
and, and receive that medical treatment.
SCOTT: Yeah.
_ MIKE: And, you know, the doctor is, is
available and he'll, he'll treat it.
SCOTT: Umhum .
MIKE: Now, the decision, you know, is
literally yours but you talked to the doctor --
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: -- and he was more than willing to, to
help you --
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: as we all are.
SCOTT: Yeah, I have no problems with that.
But like what, you know, what Steve was saying is, is-I
agree with what he said about, you know,.how everything
was going pretty good and then all of'a sudden it was
like a complete shock when the electricity went off.
MIKE: Right.
SCOTT: And --
I Q 36
MIKE: But, you know, what - you know, we're
not certain what that has to do with whether or not,
you know, your decision to get, get treatment and we're
really thinking that your decision now to come out and
receive some treatment would be a very positive action
on the part of, of you and others in there to, to
reestablish the relationship that we had.
SCOTT: Yeah, I understand that.
MIKE: You'd be helping yourself, you'd be
helping the other, others in there.
SCOTT: Uh-huh. Well, I'll certainly think
about -- I've been thinking about it, you know?
MIKE: Yeah, we know you have and --
SCOTT: Laughter!
MIKE: - we know you're, you're concerned
about the wrist and you should be and, and we - you
know, we were hopeful that you'd accept the offer of
treatment last night.
SCOTT: Yeah. Well, one thing is for sure:
I'd never been shot before so, you know --
MIKE: Right.
SCOTT: - that's one thing that's been on my
mind a lot.
MIKE: No, I can understand that. You know,
do you want that treated?
SCOTT: Huh? "
MIKE: Do you want that treated, Scott?
SCOTT: Sure.
MIKE: Okay}3'»
Q Q .7
SCOTT:
know?I'd like to have it treated, you
MIKE: why not, you know, come out? We could
arrange the mechanics in a number of minutes literally
to have it done.
SCOTT:
MIKE:
others in there,
SCOTT:
MIKE:
the one, the one
the negotiations
. SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:You know, that's --
Yeah, I understand that.
It would benefit you, it would benefit
it would benefit this whole situation.
Yeah.
It would, it would probably be the,
factor right now that could get, get
back on track.
Uhhuh.
And if --
I also, I also believe that God is
taking care of me so far, you know, as far as - it's
like I was telling the other guy, I think Jim was it
that was talking
MIKE:
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:to me the other John?
John.
Yeah.
Last night?
Well, you know, the, the FBI
spokesman mentioned David's wound healing miraculously
or whatever, you
MIKE:
SCOTT:know? -
Umhum. .
And I can look at my hand and the way
the bullet went through and went through my leg, and
I'm able to walk on my leg and everything with no pain.
And my hand's not all swollen and purple or nothing and1-L
"| ll? _ as
I'm going, well, you know, that's nothing short of
miraculous in itself.
MIKE: Umhum.
SCOTT: But I do agree, you know,
medical attention. _it needs
MIKE: It, it certainly does. You know, if
the doctor didn't convince you he certainly convinced
us at the, at the end of the conversation yesterday.
And what he left, left the message for us to pass to
you is the sooner the better and that the long~range
effects, you know, that you won't, won't be
literally until it's too late for it and we
to, you know, see those things whether it's
infection or the, the use -- loss of use of
and that wrist.
SCOTT: Umhum. Right. So, likeaware of
don't want
the
that hand
did - were
you able to -- was John able to find out anything my
dad? Because I asked him to, you know, give him a call
and, you know, let him know about my kids and stuff and
he said he'd --
MIKE: Yeah.
SCOTT: - get back to me?
MIKE: Hang on a second. They just told me
that, that they did. I'm just going to put you on hold
for a second.
SCOTT: Okay.
MIKE:
SCOTT: All right. Thanks a lot.
Pause!,They did find something out 0
I Q» 39
MIKE: Yeah, Scott?
SCOTT: Yeah?
MIKE: Yes, I understand that one of the
Johns here today did talk to your father, that there
was some difficulty with the language, had problems
understanding him, but we did relay to him that, that
you were in there, that you had been shot, that with
the exception of the wounds that you're doing all
right.
SCOTT: Uhhuh.
MIKE: And he sends, sends his love and he's
concerned about you and the would and, and really hopes
that, you know, you'll receive treatment for that
wound --
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: -- so that it doesn't --
SCOTT: I know he's not --
MIKE: -- become a hardship for you.
SCOTT: -- I know he's not a very happy
camper right now laughter! but --
MIKE: Yeah, yeah.
SCOTT: -- you know? I told him that, you
know, whatever happened -- because see, he always
thought that this was kind of strange anyway --
MIKE: Hmm.
SCOTT: -- what we believe in.
MIKE: Yeah.
SCOTT: And --
MIKE: well, again all different
I: lI" 40
personalities that we're talking about.
SCOTT: Laughter! yeah.
MIKE: Again, we, we want to be certain out
here and I want to be certain in talking to you that
you realize with - you, you have a broken bone in
there and that if it isn't, you know, treated rapidly
or quickly it'll, it'll heal incorrectly.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: Remember what the doctor discussed,
the, the layers of bones in that wrist?
SCOTT: Yeah, they'll fuse together.
MIKE: They'll fuse together and you'll have,
you know, limited or no movement with that wrist
eventually.
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: As it heals -- it's going to heal but
our, our concern or the doctor's concern and your
concern should be that it's going to heal
incorrectly --
SCOTT: Uhhuh.
MIKE: - and that you're not, not going to
have the same use, the normal use of it.
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: But, you know, it's as simple as that
aside from the potential of infection. __
SCOTT: It's kind of like what I'm also
worried about is if I come out there I probably won't
have much use for my wrist even if I could use it
because I'm going to be in, you know laughter! pretty
O ' .* 41
much trouble, huh? Laughter!
MIKE: what - I, I don't know that.
SCOTT: Sure.
MIKE: What are your concerns there?
SCOTT: Huh? _
MIKE: what are your concerns there, Scott?
SCOTT: Well, you know, about just being
thrown in jail without a trial or whatever.
MIKE: No, that's not going to happen.
SCOTT: Laughter!
MIKE: That's not, that's not going to
happen. We tried to explain to, to everybody, Steve
and others, what the system is going to be and I'd be
happy to explain to you. That -- you know, that's not
a given, that's not a given.
SCOTT: Yeah, I'd like to - for you to go
over that if you would.
MIKE: Sure, sure. But, you know, you, you
sound like, you know, you want to come out, you know,
both to get treatment and, and then, you know, on a
permanent basis.
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: But the process basically, you'll be
held as Ollie is and as, as -- 4
SCOTT: Kathy.
MIKE: - Kathy is --
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
MIKE: - as material witnesses.
SCOTT: Okay. Can you explain what a5;-
0 0, 42
material witness is?
MIKE: Sure. That's just until the, the, the
investigation of this whole situation is completed you
are held as a potential witness to what took place on
the 28th on that Sunday.
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
MIKE: You know, that's, that's, that's
definitely saying you're not being charged as what we
call a principal or a subject.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: You may have information for the
authorities, for us, on what took place and we want to
give everybody that opportunity to tell us --
SCOTT: Uhhuh.
MIKE: - truthfully what took place in
there. And that's -- all these people are considered
material witnesses and you will be held as a material
witness.
SCOTT: Okay. You said - you mentioned
held. Like, where?
MIKE: Yeah. Okay. What, what happens,
you'll come out and the actual facility is the County
Jail here in Waco --
SCOTT: Uhhuh.
MIKE: -- is my understanding.- But when,
when you come out of, of the camp, you know, you'll,
you'll physically be taken under the control by the
people that we have out there. The first thing you'll
receive is the necessary medical attention.
. A . 43
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
MIKE: Before anything else happens they will
treat you on the scene.
SCOTT: Uh-huh, right.
MIKE: If need be, you can go right to the
hospital from there. I'm sure they'll treat you with
the emergency situation on the scene. If the doctor
determines that you'll be hospitalized you'll go to the
hospital first and you won't even enter the legal
system, the judicial system, until your, your medical
or your physical needs have been taken care of.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: That's our first concern --
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: - is your physical wellbeing.
SCOTT: Uh-huh .
MIKE: Once that process - the medical part
is, is, is complete and the doctors say that you're,
you're available and --
SCOTT: Umhum.
MIKE: -- the legal process starts. And the
first thing there is you'll have legal representation,
you'll have an attorney, a lawyer, and if you can't
afford one one will be appointed for you, there's a .
system for that. '
SCOTT: Um-hum. ~
MIKE: There are lawyers here that are
willing to help. You know, there'll be a lawyer
provided to you prior to ever going to court or at the5-4-
0 0. 44
same time that you go to court.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: And you'll see a judge -- you'll be in
the federal system, we're all federal officers here.
You'll go to federal court, see a federal judge. He'll
literally explain to you why you're being held and that
as, as a material witness to the offense that happened
on, on February 28th.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: And he'll explain that, he'll explain
the, the process, he'll give you your rights. He's
very, very thorough in the federal system. I don't
know, have you been in any court system at all over the
years?
SCOTT: Only for traffic violations.
MIKE: Yeah, okay. Well, the, the federal
system is a, is a long way from traffic court and the
local system. Very professional, the judges are very
professional and very thorough. But they -- he will
literally walk you through it, give you your rights as
a citizen prior to ever being questioned by a, a law-
enforcement officer. He'll explain that you're
going - initially going to be charged with being a
material witness.
' SCOTT: UhhUh. _
MIKE: He'll, he'll decide on the, on the, on
the, the question of bond. He'll either set some kind
of bond or, or determine what the situation with bond
should be. If he sets a bond and, and you can make it
l ' l., 45
or someone puts up the bond for you you'll be released,
you'll be free until a subsequent court appearance.
SCOTT: Uhhuh.
MIKE: Somewhere, you know, in that process,
you know, you'll be processed through the - through a
jail and, and be fingerprinted and, and photographed.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: So, that's - you know, and they'll go
from there. As the, as the investigation progresses --
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: and your involvement, you know, it
will be determined and, and literally once you have
that attorney that's the guy that's going to be, you
know, looking out for your best interests.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: You know, right now, you know, we're
looking out for your best interests. we hope that, you
know, once you -- when you do come out, you know, that
attorney, that lawyer will, will be the guy that will
represent you -
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: -- and, you know, watch out for you.
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
MIKE: But, you know, if, if it's decided .
that you're held it will be my understanding in a
local, local jail here. »
SCOTT: Um-hum.
MIKE: So, I don't know, if that's, that's
all you want covered or more? Do you have any5-"
questions on, on that?
SCOTT: Well, that's pretty comprehensive. I
mean, I probably wouldn't understand if you went any
further. .
MIKE: Yeah. Are there other assurances of
what you need right now? You know, we're, we're
prepared out at the scene and, and we're prepared here
to make those arrangements for you to, to come out of
this as quickly as, as you make the decision to come
out.
SCOTT: Right. I understand.
MIKE: You know, we don't see any real need
to_wait until first thing in the morning --
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
MIKE: -- when we have the people out there
waiting. we've got the medical people either on scene
there or minutes awaY
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: And, you know, once, once you, you
know, decide to come out the hospital is there, the
doctor is available.
SCOTT: Uh
MIKE: But
that when this whole
when everybody comes
-- will come out and-huh. I appreciate that.
-- and, you know, rest assured too
situation ends, you know, when, -
out, and everybody will eventually
go through this same process.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: And, and after the investigators are
completed at the camp --
O» Q1 47
SCOTT: Um-hum.
MIKE: -- they're going to search it what
they'd, what they'd call a crime scene search.
SCOTT: Right .
MIKE: Then individuals that make the
decision are going to be free to go back in and resume
their lives, you know? So if that's a concern --
what's going to happen --
SCOTT: Oh, you mean we'd be allowed to
return here if -- afterwards if --
MIKE: Certainly.
End of Tape #125!
- '-/ _
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #126
March 13, 1993hi
Tape 126!
MIKE:ex, 2
- trying to change your, your views,
your lifestyle there, forbid you from returning to that
camp and, and re
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:
I get my picture
MIKE:
. SCOTT:
anything.
MIKE:
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:
something would
MIKE:sume normal --
Okay. Another question --
- normal living.
Okay.
Sure.
Say -- you said I'm fingerprinted and
taken, right?
Um-hum.
And say I'm not charged with
Right.
will this be like on the record?
Well --
Say if I applied for a job or
that show up or something?
It may well show up as, as an initial
arrest but the important thing there is the disposition
is that all charges were dismissed, you know, if, if
the investigation determines --
SCOTT:
MIKE:Right.
-- that the -- that no further charges
would be forthcoming --
SCOTT: Uhhuh.
O QT
MIKE: - they'll all be dismissed., 3
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: Sure. There are, there are other ways
to have that purged from your record, but that's for
you and your attorney to discuss.
SCOTT: Like community service or something?
MIKE: Sure, sure, whatever.
SCOTT: Laughter! Yeah.
MIKE: Yeah, there are a lot of options
there. There are a lot of options.
SCOTT: Well see, I was just kind of curious
about that.
MIKE: Sure.
SCOTT: Because I'm, I'm a landscape
contractor, I got a landscape contractor's license in
California.
MIKE: Oh, okay.
SCOTT: And -
MIKE: You could return to that.
SCOTT: Yeah, I can.
MIKE: Be a heck of a business to be in in
this day and age.
SCOTT: Yeah. It was going, going pretty
good but, you know --
MIKE: Yeah, I'll bet.
SCOTT: My clients are -- is what I'm little
0 Q 4
concerned about.
MIKE: Yeah. Yeah, well, I would be too but
I wouldn't worry about that.
SCOTT: Yeah. I mean, that's kind of like in
the distance. l
MIKE: Yeah .
SCOTT: But --
MIKE: Okay. Well, what do you think? Are
you ready to come out and get that hand taken care of
and get this whole situation behind you?
SCOTT: I'd like to think about it some more,
you know. I want to come out but I still want to think
about it a little more and make up my mind and --
MIKE: Okay.
SCOTT: If that's all right with you.
MIKE: Sure. No, that's fine. will you
promise me when do make your decision that you'll call
us --
SCOTT: Sure, I'll do that.
MIKE: -- as, as soon as it's made and --
yeah.
SCOTT: I'll do that.
MIKE: Okay. what kind of time are we
talking about do you think here, Scott? -
' SCOTT: I really can't say, you know. I mean
I -- it's been on my mind and it's, it's a real>-'»
personal thing because --
MIKE: Oh, I know.
SCOTT: - these are -- this is my family
over here, you know. y
MIKE: Right.
SCOTT: I consider them my family and my
friends and --
MIKE: Right.
SCOTT: - and I have known David for seven
years and --
MIKE: Well, they'll always be your family
and your friends and, you know, what you're
accomplishing by, you know, coming out and again
getting medical treatment and going through the system
is just a temporary separation from them.
SCOTT: Right, right.
MIKE: Yeah .
SCOTT: I understand that.
MIKE: It's not like you're deserting them a
family, as friends.
SCOTT: Right. You know what I'm saying,
right?
MIKE: Yes .
SCOTT: I mean, it's not like something that
I, I take lightly --
MIKE: Yeah.
0 oi.
SCOTT: -- leaving them, you know?
MIKE: Yeah.
SCOTT: S0 --
MIKE: Okay. Well, you know, would, would it
also be more reassuring to you, would you like someone
else to, to accompany you out of the camp? would that
make it easier or someone to, to meet you out here?
SCOTT: I'm -- let's see, you know, my, my
two daughters? I was really wondering about them, how
they're doing. Because the videos --
MIKE: Okay.
SCOTT: -- that we have received my two
daughters are not really seen very much --
MIKE: Yeah, yeah.
SCOTT: - if at all.
MIKE: Okay.
SCOTT: Do you know which ones they are?
MIKE: Yes, yeah.
SCOTT: Angelique and Crystal.
MIKE: What's the first one?
SCOTT: Angelique is the older one and
Crystal is the other --
MIKE: And Crystal.
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: Yeah.
SCOTT: And the pictures that we got the_-
C Q 7
second time, you know -- '
MIKE: Did you not get pictures and notes or
whatever from one or both?
SCOTT: NO.
MIKE: Oh, okay.
SCOTT: There were just, there were just
three kids that wrote notes.
MIKE: Oh, okay. It was my impression when
I, I saw them just briefly I thought just about
everybody wrote or had somebody write for them.
SCOTT: No. Just three kids wrote notes and
one wrote -- two of them wrote two notes --
MIKE: Yeah.
SCOTT: -- one of them wrote one note.
MIKE: Okay.
SCOTT: And the photographs we got the second
time were just of a few of them.
MIKE: Sure. Okay. Yeah.
SCOTT: You know, so I'm kind of like well,
where are the rest of them, you know?
MIKE: Yeah. No, they're all, they're all,
you know, together and they're being cared for.
Obviously I --
SCOTT: I think they were just taken to the-
parks -- not all of them were taken at that park --
MIKE: Okay. Okay. Well, would you like to
Q Q L 8
be reunited with both of them as, as Kathy was with
Brian?
SCOTT: Sure, yeah.
MIKE: Yeah, okay. We can we'll work on
arranging that. ~
SCOTT: Okay.
MIKE: That's not that difficult a thing
once, once you're out.
SCOTT: You know, because that was one thing
that was really worrying in my mind that, you know -
MIKE: Yeah.
SCOTT: -- like they were telling me yeah,
you know, you get to see them and stuff - I'm going
yeah, right, you know, like, like I'd be lucky if I got
to talk to them on the phone, you know?
MIKE: Yeah. That's not the case. You know,
we, we will work on that. That may take a little
time --
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: - so, you know, as, as, as soon as,
you know, you're -- you give us an indicator that
you're ready to come out we will start working on that.
You know, we can be working on that kind of reunion
between you and your daughters while you're going
through a medical examination --
SCOTT: Right.¢_.--
92
92
92
92
92
92
O I Q
MIKE: -- and through the other process.
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: Yeah.
SCOTT: But I'd appreciate that if --
MIKE: I'm sure that they would, they would
like to give their, their dad a big hug, you know?
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: Yeah.
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: No, I'm --
SCOTT: Because I, I was real close to them
so --
MIKE: Well, I'm sure you are, yeah, I'm su
you are, and they're close to you.
SCOTT: Yeah. They're real good kids.
MIKE: Yeah, oh, yeah. All the kids were
good what I saw of them, yeah.
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: Yeah, and you've, you've got to
realize that, you know, they have a need for you, you
know, you are their --
SCOTT: The one thing that really --
MIKE: -- you're their father.
SCOTT: Yeah. The one thing that really
upset me --
MIKE: What's that?9
I
re
Q Q_ 10
SCOTT: -- was the kid -- you know, the
psychologist -- you know, the so-called "experts"?
Because the kids were kind of like well behaved --
MIKE: Uh-huh.
SCOTT: -- and like controlled themselves to,
to a certain degree that, you know, that they thought
they were abused or something?
» MIKE: Well, I wouldn't worry about all that.
You know, they were, they were under a strange setting
there and, and --
SCOTT: Kind of funny, you know?
MIKE: -- they'd been away, yeah. No, I
wouldn't -- we're trying to, you know, keep them all
together until they can be reunited with, with
everybody that they should be when, when, when --
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: -- you all come out.
SCOTT: Another thing I was wondering is,
okay, they were saying that they would do a background
check on any relatives that wanted to take custody of
the kids. And how would that work with an out-of-state
parent? Like my family is from Hawaii.
MIKE: Well, it wouldn't make, make any
difference at all. They'll, they'll go -- you know, -
they don't have to be from here or from Texas or, or
the continental United States.
SCOTT: Right. -
MIKE: The, the Social Service people that,
that handle it
SCOTT: There's a, there's a way they could __
do that that _
MIKE: Pardon me?
SCOTT: There's a way they could do it
without actually going --
MIKE: Sure, sure.
SCOTT: -- over there?
MIKE: Oh, sure, I mean they're only a
telephone call away.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: They're only a telephone call, you
know? There are people from Australia and Britain, you
know, and, and everything else, Scott.
SCOTT: Right. Okay.
MIKE: That's no problem to get on the --
SCOTT: I see.
MIKE: - the telephone, yeah.
SCOTT: Uh-huh. Want to talk to Steve some
more?
MIKE: Yeah.
SCOTT: I'm getting, I'm getting kind of -
cold.
MIKE: Sure, sure. Okay. Okay. But you
C Q 12
give that - this whole situation some thought.
SCOTT: Yeah, and your name was what? Mike?
MIKE: Mike, Mike, right. And, you know,
this phone system is literally
there's someone here to answer
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:
MIKE:
you let us know,
able to set this
SCOTT:Okay. So we
You know, I'mavailable 24 hours a day
it.
can call you then?
here -- pardon me?
We can call out?
Sure, you can
Okay.
Sure you can. And as, and as soon as
you know, the, the quicker we'll be
thing up for you.
Right.
MIKE: Literally, anybody in there can call
out and, and we're here to, to help everybody and we
just want to see this - see it resolved.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: And, you know, you, you coming out
and, and getting the treatment you need is a first step
for everybody else too, so --
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: - you're helping yourself and, and
others.
SCOTT: I got a big favor to ask you.
MIKE: What's that? I'll help you if I oan,
O Q 13
and I, I think I can.
SCOTT: Well, yeah, I mean, you know, do what
you can, but --
MIKE: Sure.
SCOTT: - do you think you can do something
about the electricity?
MIKE: About the power? Well, we --
SCOTT: I know, I know it's a big deal, you
know?
MIKE: Yeah, yeah.
SCOTT: But it - you know, it would show
some, it, it would show some good faith on your part.
MIKE: It would, and we realize that and it
would reestablish some credibility. It's basically
like the credibility -- probably the best thing we
could do right now to, to get that power back on is to
have you come out.
SCOTT: Right.
MIKE: That would be --
SCOTT: It's like a twoway street, right?
MIKE: It's a two-way street -- good faith
from your side, reestablish the credibility. And, you
know, even if you couldn't benefit from that power back
on, everybody else in there -- .
SCOTT: Yeah.
MIKE: -- you know, could.
SCOTT:
MIKE:
your friends and
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:
to Steve then.
MIKE:
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:
now. Hello?
MIKE:
SCOTT:
back?
MIKE:
SCOTT:
MIKE:Q 14
Right. '
So you'd be helping, helping others,
the family in there.
Okay.
Okay?
All right. I'll let you get talking
Good, Scott. Good talking to you.
Okay --
I'll hear from you soon.
Okay. See you later.
Bye.
I'll get - I'll to get him right
Hello?
You want me to just have him call you
Sure, if he wants to, to --
I got to go find him.
Sure, that's okay. If he wants
something else - I don't have anything specific for
him that we haven't talked about --
SCOTT:
MIKE:
SCOTT:
MIKE:Oh, okay.
- so if he wants --
If he has anything else --
- wants to talk --. .
Q Q 15
anything or has
moment.
about theSCOTT: -- I'll have him call you.
MIKE: Sure.
SCOTT: Okay.
MIKE: Okay, Scott. __
SCOTT: Okay. Take it easy. I
MIKE: Anybody that wants - you know, needs
a question have them call.
SCOTT: Okay.
MIKE: Okay, Scott.
SCOTT: All right. Thanks.
MIKE: Bye.
SCOTT: Bye.
*****
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello?
JOHN-3: Hello, is Steven there, please?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Wait one
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JOHN-3: Steven?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN3: This is John-3.
MR. SCHNEIDER: JOhn3?
JOHN3: I talked to you shortly yesterday.
note from your sister, Susan.
9 I .6
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, yes.
JOHN-3: The reason for my call, Oliver and
Kathy had requested to talk to you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN3: And I don't -- do you still want to
talk to them?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
JOHN-3: Okay. We're going to arrange that
here in just a second.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
Pause! Dial tone persisting throughout
following exchange!
JOHN3: Can, can you hear?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I can hear it sounds like a
dial tone ~-
JOHN3: Okay dial tone ceases! hold on one
second here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN3: We're trying to arrange this here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN3: Go ahead.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
OLIVER: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER: IS this Oliver?
' OLIVER: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oliver, how are you doing?
I, " 17
OLIVER: Oh, Steve, I'm great, doing just
fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, good. Good to hear it.
OLIVER: Yeah, they're -- you know, they're
treating me real nice, you know? No ones been unfair
to me or anything, you know, everything's going real
well. I'm in good spirits. I just - you know, I just
got out of bed not so long ago.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, really? Well, that
sounds good.
OLIVER: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Anything you want to tell me,
or your sister --
OLIVER: Yeah, they've, they've provided an
attorney for me.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They have? Okay.
OLIVER: They're going to appoint me a new
one on Monday.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
OLIVER: Yeah, of course the Australian
consulate came to see me.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Good.
OLIVER: You know, he wanted me to - you
know, he asked me if I wanted my parents to know
anything, he wanted to send some message on --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I see.
0 ' 0 1 8
OLIVER: - and stuff like that. I, I
believe - they've, they've told me that I've got press
access which I didn't know up until today, but I do
have access to the.press. I can ring anyone I like.
And I - _
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, if, if you can we'd
like to be listening by radio to who you might connect
with or the possibilities of hearing you or what you
might want to say.
OLIVER: Okay. I'm just jotting these down.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Oliver?
OLIVER: Yeah?
MR. SCHNEIDER: would you like to talk with
your sister?
OLIVER: There's one more thing I'd like to,
I'd like to say before I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
OLIVER: -- before I talk to Aeysha.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
OLIVER: I just - you know, I do have faith
in the system and I hope everything does work out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
OLIVER: And I believe this will be worked
out just fine, you know what I mean?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. -
OLIVER: Okay. Yes, I would like to speak to-t
' .19
her.
here she
what happ
down in t
materialMR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Just a minute. Here,
is.
AISHA:
OLIVER
AISHA:
OLIVER
AISHA:
OLIVER
AISHA:
OLIVER
AISHA:
OLIVER
AISHA:
ened to
OLIVERHello? _
Hi.
Hi. How you doing?
I'm all right.
Yeah?
Yeah. what are you doing?
The usual.
Uh-huh. How's Startle?
Good.
Is she, is she sleeping or what?
No, she's just in bed. So, what,
you?
Oh, I they're, they're holding me
he count ail ri ht now.
AISHA:
OLIVER
AISHA:
OLIVER
AISHA:
OLIVER
witness
AISHA:
OLIVERY 3 9
You're in jail?
Yeah.
Really?
Yeah.
What for?
They're, they're holding me as a
Oh.
-- which is my - I, I may know
20
something and they may want to keep me to - just in
case -- they want
term situation --
because I, I left
AISHA:
OLIVER:to find out, you know - in the long-
do you have dad's phone number,
my wallet on the bed?
on, you didn't take it?
No, I left it. You know, I wanted
to take it. It had my ID and everything.
AISHA:
there?
OLIVER:
I guess.
AISHA:
okay?
OLIVER:
9° "-
AISHA:
OLIVER:
AISHA:
OLIVER:
AISHA:
to David?
OLIVER:
AISHA:
Pause!Oh, Ollie, how come you left that
Oh, I don't know. I wasn't thinking
Yeah, I have, I have to go get it,
Yeah, go get it. Aisha's going to
Okay. Just wait.
Okay.
Hold on. Ollie?
Hmm?
While I go get it do you want to talk
Sure.
Sure.
MR. KORESH: Ollie?
OLIVER: Hi.
Q Q 21
MR. KORESH: Did you get that steak dinner
yet?
OLIVER: Not quite.
MR. KORESH: Laughter! what are they
feeding you? -
OLIVER: Just prison food, I guess. It's --
MR. KORESH: Prison food?
OLIVER: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: That may not be that bad.
OLIVER: It's all right. No, I've got no
complaints.
MR. KORESH: They've been treating you good?
OLIVER: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: That's good.
OLIVER: Yeah .
MR. KORESH: So anyway, so they're not half
as bad are they?
OLIVER: No, they're, they're all right.
MR. KORESH: Huh?
OLIVER: They're pretty good to me, yeah.
MR. KORESH: Heard anything about the
weather?
OLIVER: No, everything is fine.
MR. KORESH: That's good. Yeah, you kind of
discouraged a lot of people here when they didn't let
you call back like they said.-
B_Q 22
OLIVER: Yeah, well --
MR. KORESH: Well, they just broke - after,
after you left they just broke negotiations with us.
They shut our electricity off, you know, didn't give us
the "Newsweeks."
OLIVER: Really?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, they haven't, they haven't
been calling us or nothing.
OLIVER: Hmm. I'll have to talk to them
about that.
MR. KORESH: Well, it's just, you know, I
guess they got their reasons.
OLIVER: We'll work something out.
MR. KORESH: You know, Kevin and them were
going to come out, you know, we was working it out and
then all of a sudden they just -- John Cox was the last
guy I was talking to, it was going real good then all
of a sudden they just turned our electricity off and we
called them and we said what's going on. And, you
know, they just - ever since then they just been real
stifled, haven't been calling us in the morning or
nothing.
OLIVER: Hmm.
MR. KORESH: So we didn't know what - we .
didn't know if they beat you up or whatever they did-to
you, you know? So anyway - so --
Q . . _ 23
OLIVER: No, they've, they've been very, very
polite, the -- especially the, the Sheriff's Department
down there and --
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.
OLIVER: -- they've been real good to me.
You know, they've -- you know, you know, given me
everything I needed and, you know --
MR. KORESH: well, tell, tell, tell those
guys, weinberger and all those guys I still love them
down there.
OLIVER: To who?
MR. KORESH: Sheriff Weinberger.
OLIVER:_ what's his name, Sheriff Lamberger?
MR. KORESH: Weinberger.
OLIVER: Weinberger?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
OLIVER: Weinberger.
MR. KORESH: And Harwell --
OLIVER: Oh, Weinberger, right.
MR. KORESH: -- and all those guys down
there. And tell them, you know, it's strange thing
when these big boys come in down here in our little
town.
OLIVER: Yeah. -
MR. KORESH: But anyway, well, good to hear
from you. Here, here's, here's Fish.
§C . Q 2.
magazines
far as I
Street iOLIVER: okay
MR. KORESH:
OLIVER: Catc
MR. KORESH:Okay.
h you later.
Talk to you later. __
OLIVER: Yeah --
MR. KORESH:
OLIVER: All
MR. KORESH:
Pause!
OLIVER: Hell
AISHA: All r
OLIVER: Okay
AISHA: Wait
know, it's 011
OLIVER: Yeah
AISHA: Okay,
OLIVER: 758.
AISHA: 8975.
OLIVER: 8975
AISHA: Do yo
OLIVER: Yeah
ndiscernible!.
AISHA: Yeah.
OLIVER: 3156
AISHA: Okay?Tell them to send those
right. I'll tell them that.
Thanks.
0?
ight. I got the phone number.
a minute. Pause! Okay. As
-613 --
, I know that part.
758 --
u have the address?
, I've got the address, 7 Rudman
3156. That's the Post Code..
OLIVER: Okay. Yeah, it's -- everyone is_ _ 25
treating me real nicely, you know?
AISHA: Of course, Ollie.
OLIVER: .It's great.
AISHA: Just like the prophesies say so.
OLIVER: Yeah, well, I guess. You know I
love you and I hope for the best and I hope, hope this
can be resolved in a good way and that everything will
come out nicely.
AISHA: I heard that Gary Coker got Catherine
and Margaret were they for the reason for - that
you're being held?
OLIVER: Let me ask them. Is - do you know
Catherine and Margaret, the two elderly ladies that
came out? Are they being held the same way I am or
have they been released? All -- have they been has
their bond been paid? Are they released? Are
they --
AISHA: Well, we know they have been
released.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They're out,
they're out.
OLIVER: Yeah, they're out. They've -- you
know, they've, they've been set a bond and -- "
AISHA: Are they going to do that for you?
OLIVER: I don't know yet. 'There's - we
. j 26
will have to see. I guess they might. I don't
know -- see - I don't know. She's asking me, my
sister, if they're going to put a bond for me but --
AISHA: Um-hum.
OLIVER: We'll, we'll have to discuss that
later, me and my lawyer and, you know, find out what's
going on with that.
AISHA: With your lawyer, okay.
OLIVER: Yeah. I've, I've got a temporary
lawyer right now but I'll, I'll be getting a new one on
Monday and so send my love to, you know, everyone and
tell them I'm all right and I love them and, you
know -- you still there?
AISHA: Yeah, yeah, I'm listening.
OLIVER: Okay. Tell, tell Kevin and --
AISHA: So you're --
OLIVER: Huh?
AISHA: -- you're staying in a
that's where you are, in a cell?
OLIVER: Yeah, I'm in a cell.
television, you know, I've got a shower,
got a toilet, you know, bed. Don't know
say. I guess there's not much really to
AISHA: Okay. Well --cell in a --
I've got a
you know, I've
what else to
say.
OLIVER: Just listen out on the radio and see
what happens. -
O . C 27
AISHA: All right.
OLIVER: So you didn't get the magazines,
huh?
AISHA: No, we didn't get the magazines.
OLIVER: All right. I'll tell them about
that. That's unusual. And you were, and you were cut
off --
AISHA: They cut off all negotiations with
us, Ollie.
OLIVER: They've cut off all negotiations?
AISHA: Yeah, and the electricity.
OLIVER: And the electricity. All right.
well, I'll ask them about that and see what we can do.
AISHA: That's why the rest, that's why the
rest of the guys here aren't coming out.
OLIVER: She's, she's right here -- she's
going to --
AISHA: Huh?
OLIVER: Okay. Well, I got to go now and
Kathy wants to speak to you guys now --
AISHA: Kathy wants to talk --
OLIVER: - later on - Kathy wants to speak
to you --
AISHA: Oh, later on?
OLIVER: -- later on, yeah. _
AISHA: When? Right now or later on?-;-
C , C 28
OLIVER: Later on. Well --
AISHA: Later on?
OLIVER: -- the same line or you going to
redial?
AISHA: Huh? She's going to what?
OLIVER: So you're going to take over for me
now? Okay. Well - what was your name again?
DICK: Dick.
OLIVER: Dick's going to take over now and --
1>1c1<= Hello? I
OLIVER: -- good-bye.
DICK: Hello?
AISHA: Good-bye, Ollie.
OLIVER: Hello?
DICK: Hello. Keep, keep the line open if
you would, please, so that Kathy can --
OLIVER: Yeah. I'm just going to hand it
over to Dick.
DICK: I guess we have to call back but
we'll, we'll keep the, the line open here.
OLIVER: All right. Okay. Bye.
AISHA: Bye, Ollie.
OLIVER: Yeah. I love you.
AISHA: Okay. I love you, too.
- OLIVER: Here's Dick.
AISHA: Oh, okay.
Dick?
here.
here.
Kathy
back then?Q Q 2.
setDICK: Hello? Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: H8110?
DICK: This is Dick.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, Dick indiscernible! or
JOHN-3: Yeah, hello, John here - John3
MR. SCHNEIDER
JOHN-3: Okay
up and we'll,
MR. SCHNEIDER
JOHN-3: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER
talking with I think itOh, John. Okay. John, Steve
Steve,
we'll be
Oh, so
Okay.
was see,listen, we'll get
back with you.
you want to call me
John, so, yeah, I was
who was it last night
last? Oh, it was Mike and he told me no I said I
had talked to a John-3 and he says no, you were talking
to John Cox. I says, no, I believe it was - he told
it was John-3.
JOHN-3: Steve, he was confused.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN-3: I talked to you yesterday.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I thought so. Okay. You ~
know, it was what, 6:00 in the morning or somewhere
around there?
call then.
background
Kathy --
you'll jus
ahead.JOHN-3: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Talk to you when youQ 30
JOHN3: _All right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
*****
Pause! Indiscernible voices in
~!
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN-3: Steven?
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN-3: This is
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN3: Good.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN3: I believe we've got that call from
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN3: set to go here in a minute if
t hold on.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN3: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
KATHY: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello?
Yes.
John-3 again.
John-3, how you doing?
Good.
All right.
Okay, I will.
I think she's there. G
Okay. Hello?
Kathy?
0 92 31
KATHY: Hi, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: How is it going?
KATHY: Okay. How's it going there?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we had -- apparently
Sabbath was kind of a breakdown with them.
KATHY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Started out with the
electricity being turned off. we thought everything
was going great. Three, three people at least were
going to go out yesterday and, and --
KATHY: But not --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- they, they got cold feet
when they didn't hear from Ollie, the electricity went
off, no "Newsweek" magazines.
KATHY: Kind of scared them, huh?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, it did. I, I
tried --
KATHY: No "Newsweek"?
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I tried to talk to them a
little bit further and they just didn't want to make a
move, they didn't hear from Ollie, they were --
KATHY: I thought you had "Newsweek" and
"Time."
MR. SCHNEIDER: N0.
KATHY: Oh, no.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Never received it. We were4
listening to the radio and we were - David and I andg _ 32
the rest were quite unhappy with you because they
stated you said you are our spokesperson.
KATHY: I never said that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And also you called us
Koreshians which isn't so and - Branch Davidian
Seventh Day Adventists which is not so. So I mean, I
don't know, Kathy, just be - you know, those things
we've never -- David has never called us that or said
we were that. Pardon? Yeah, he said -- David even
passed on you didn't need to salt your foot.
KATHY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, other -- but otherwise,
they're treating you okay and things are fine?
KATHY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You've got an attorney?
KATHY: Yes. The court appointed me an
attorney real quick, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Are you still, are you
still with Brian?
KATHY: No, Brian - I saw Brian -- when I
did I come out? Friday. I saw Brian Friday.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, and not since, huh?
KATHY: N0.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what's the thing on
that? '
Q C 33
KATHY: Well, I have -- they -- I have to
wait until they go through the system.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And have they given you any
idea about time or --
KATHY: No. It just depends on, you know
how the court proceedings go.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. So, no idea what
time, huh?
KATHY: NO.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, right now you're a
material witness. What kind of -- I mean, where ar
you located? Are you in a, in a jail or --
KATHY: I, I was - I went through the FB
command post, whatever, which is where I was when I saw
Brian and --I
e
I
MR. SCHNEIDER: That was the first thing you
did?
KATHY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
KATHY: And I was not put through any
interrogation or anything, you know, everybody was
nice.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Great.
KATHY: Then I was moved here and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, where is here?
KATHY: County, County Sheriff's Office.real
O Q»- _ 34
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, you're at the County
Jail?
KATHY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you have a cell or
something?
KATHY: Yes. I have access to whoever. I
have a phone and I have an attorney.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You have a telephone? You
can call anybody?
KATHY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And you have access to the
press?
KATHY: If I want.
MR. SCHNEIDER: If you want, huh?
KATHY: I, I have a, I have a phone in my
room.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
KATHY: I have a detention hearing scheduled
Tuesday and I'm - if all goes well I could be released
then.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I see.
KATHY: But I don't want to push anything,
you know?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. '
' KATHY: So I'm just going by their rules and,
you know, doing the best I can to facilitate the best
F .Q» C as
resolution of the whole situation. You know, that's
why, you know, I want to talk to you, let you know that
okay, yeah, I am going through a system.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
KATHY: But I, I've been treated fairly. You
know, the system has -- is doing what they can for me
and I'm doing what I can to help the people that are
still in there to solve the situation. I mean, there's
no way that everybody is going to be able to speak
until they come out. So that's why I'm on the phone
with you, to help you help the others to see that
that's, that's the only possibility. They're not
going --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, they, they've
stated that --
KATHY: they're not going to let you have
any access to the press.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
numerous times and --
KATHY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
has taken place thus far
KATHY: Right.
facts. There's no --
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know that.
-- they've stated that to me
-- it's been obvious by what
That's, that's the simple
-- about us not having access
to the press until we come out. V
' 36
KATHY: That's -- there's no way around it.
But I do have access --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I, I know, I know, I know
they have total control.
KATHY: Yes, they have total control of you.
I have access to the press though.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know they have -- that they
made that statement even on the press this morning how
they are - that they have total, complete control of
everything.
KATHY: Yeah .
MR. SCHNEIDER: They're, they're more
powerful than the press, they're more powerful than any
other aspect of society.
KATHY: They are. But now I'm out of that
situation and I do have access to the press. Whether I
use that is, is, is dependent on your lives in there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. Well, hang on a
minute. Pause! Yeah, anything else, Kathy or --
KATHY: You know that Margaret and Catherine
were released on bond? You know that?
MR. SCHNEIDER: They -- okay, if they're
material witnesses did they explain to you why they
would have to be on bond or bail in the first place? I
don't quite understand.
KATHY: Because as a material witness don't
IO O 3'
they have to come back when there is a court trial and
testify? That's why the bond is placed on them, so
that they can secure their testimony.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I
reason.
KATHY: Yeah.see, so that's the only
MR. SCHNEIDER: And so far it appears that's
the way it's going to be for yourself?
KATHY: That's what I'm hoping.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And then you don't know much
about Ollie then do you?
KATHY: I don't, I don't know anything about
Ollie.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. Okay. So --
KATHY: I mean, I've seen him a couple times,
but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, you have seen him a few
times?
KATHY: Yeah, but
case.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I
County Jail?
KATHY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I
KATHY: The otherI, I don't know about his
see. Are you both in the
see. Okay.
statement I wanted to make
was that when I get the opportunity and, you know, if1
O C 38
I, if I win the detention hearing or whatever, I'm
going to file a wrongful death lawsuit against the ATF
for killing Mike.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
KATHY: And I'm going to need you al1's help.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
KATHY: So in order for -- you know, this is
my, my help to the -- to the FBI, in order for you to
help me --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I would have to be out.
KATHY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm
KATHY: Okay. That's the
MR. SCHNEIDER: The truth
that I want to be on that side withworking on it.
bottom line there.
is, you can pass on
the rest too.
KATHY: Okay. The last thing I wanted to
mention was that, you know, we've been in this for
what, 14 days now?
MR. SCHNEIDER: This is actually --
days today.
KATHY: Day 14? I don't think timeyeah, 14
is really
on our side. You have a lot of supplies --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You, you don't, you
you don't think time is on our side? what do
KATHY: You have a lot ofdon't,
you mean?
supplies in there,
but the resources that are being used out here are
Q C 3
monumental and the FBI has made it clear that for that
reason and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: SO --
KATHY: - and for the lives and for the
injuries and for the need for medical, medical
attention of those inside that they are extremely
anxious for this situation to come to an end.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They're extremely anxious
for - well, we've been anxious for this thing to have
never started and also to come to an end. You stated
that we have a lot -- even though we have a lot of
supplies here they've got great what, what was meant
by they have great resources out there?
KATHY: They're using, they're using a lot of
resources out here to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: what do you mean they're
using a lot of resources? Like -- can you make
yourself more plain?
KATHY: Well, you can, you can see, you can
see what's on our property, right?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, you talking about the
tanks and Bradleys?
KATHY: I'm talking about everything that,
that's being used. I mean, even, even to keep me here
costs, you know, time, space, everything.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Is this what they explained
. Q 4°
to you then or --
KATHY: Well, that's common sense, too, but,
but what they did explain to me was that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: why, why would you be telling
me that when since day one it's obvious to me by just
looking out the window I can see things happening? I
mean, is there a reason? Have they encouraged you to
say that? Have you - do, do you have an, an opinion
about it or what?
KATHY: Well, that statement I know you know,
but the - what they have encouraged is that they are
anxious to bring this situation to an end based on
those facts.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, so they, so they let you
know that they are anxious --
KATHY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - to bring this to a quick
close?
KATHY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And that they do have
resources to do so?
KATHY: Sure they do.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
KATHY: And, and, you know, based on the
lives that are in there we want it to come to a
peaceful end, that's, that's, that's their, their --
0 41
MR. SCHNEIDER: well, you know the -~
KATHY: - biggest desire.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Kathy, we - I really thought
in all truth and honesty, I really thought that what we
had going with this John-2, John Dolan, about three
days or Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, it was looking so
well and three more were coming out. I was actually
starting to talk to a number of guys that were speaking
about going out and it all came to an abrupt stop
Friday night.
KATHY: Because of the electricity going off?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that was the first
thing that -- it was the most freaky thing to this
point of time that's happened. It was like pulling the
carpet out from under us. All of a sudden these guys
that wanted to go out didn't want to even talk to me.
what now?
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! In background!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, John Cox was -- yeah,
John Cox was talking to David, everything was going
fine. In fact, he was going to call us right back.
KATHY: I, I read that in the paper that --
MR . SCHNEIDER: Yeah .
KATHY: - David talked to him.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, did have they been
bringing out how they all of a sudden right in the
Q Q 42
process of, of super -- David had already let them know
that he was aware that these three guys were coming
out, they were going to be out in the morning like say
9, 10, 11 o'clock. And all of a sudden --
KATHY: I think --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- all of a sudden the
electricity came off. Did they, did they show in the
press that it went off at 11:15 and that's when
negotiations broke down, no "Newsweek," no Ollie's
return call? I mean now all of a sudden the people
they became scared again. You know, now I've got to go
back and start trying -- but I don't have any tools to
work with. The electricity never came back on, they
never warned --
KATHY: I told, I told them that that was
going to put everybody in a state of shock but I don't
know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: It did --
KATHY: -- 1 don't --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- more -- worse than I -- I
mean, after almost these 14 days now it's made it near
impossible to even to even - for me to communicate
with them.
KATHY: I don't know why that came about. I
did, I did read that some -- that they are unsure as to
why myself and Oliver came out. I did not state that I
Q Ci 43
was a key player, I did not state that at all, I don't
know where that came from.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know -- we heard that
too and I was wondering --
KATHY: I stated --
MR. SCHNEIDER: - what that was all about.
KATHY: I stated that the people inside are
going to look and see what happens to me --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
KATHY: -- to help their decision as for them
to come out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And that did make a --
KATHY: That was my statement.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And it was a big difference.
KATHY: That was my statement.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Ollie was feeling much better
about it, he went out, and these others were just going
to follow right after him. In fact, they were thinking
about it that night and they said, well, let's just
wait until the morning hours when the sunlight comes up
and, and we're going to be going out then ourselves.
And then bingo, all of a sudden the electricity went
off and John Cox said he'd call us back, he never did.
So that was -- and they all started --
KATHY: Indiscernible!
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- acting real strange. Then
all, all of
person Dick
turning the
"Newsweek,"C 44
a sudden I talked to a John-3 and a new
and got absolutely nowhere, nothing about
electricity back on, nothing about the
nothing about Ollie talking to us. I mean,
the whole thing just totally fell apart and now they
show no interest in even calling here. And then we
listened to the press conference, the whole truth was
not told. I mean, all these --
KATHY: The only way that you can be
told --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- on this side, on this side
you wonder just what's going on with them now.
KATHY: I -- it's, it's not going to happen,
Steve. The only way the truth can be told is for us to
tell it; you know they're not going to tell it. We
have got to tell it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Now, that's for sure.
KATHY: we're going to tell it in the courts
and we're going to tell it to the media, but we can't
tell it
any way
The FBIfrom in there. Because I don't, I don't know
around that. we cannot tell it from in there.
refuses to let that happen and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I know that. You - and
I,I--
told me
statements.you, you and - they've told me that, you've
a number of times. I'm aware of their
KATHY: And, and Steve, I ha
but the, the, the indiscernible!.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
me. Kathy? Kathy?
KATHY: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
let you know that we were on the line
aren't concealing anything, okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, all righ
aware of that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
clear up something that might involve
issue?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
been our words. I don't believe Kathy
was a spokesperson -- exactly what she
that she said that people would be loo
inside at how she was treated and --
KATHY: I called myself a gu
the words I used.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
same words, right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.45
ve to apologize,
Steve? Excuse
Steve?
I just wanted to
here just so we
t. I, I wasn't
Okay, and can I
the spokesperson
That may have
said that she
just said --
king on the
inea pig, that's
That's the exact
aw iii
- UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKEE: Okay? SO I'll
let you go on.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
KATHY: what was I saying?46
MR. SCHNEIDER: You were talking about the
press or something or -- or --
KATHY: Right, right. I have immediate
access to the press right now. Whether or not I want
to say anything that might harm the lives in there - I
may, I may not say anything to the press until
anybody's out based --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That sounds good.
KATHY: -- based on the fact that I don't
want to do anything that's going to hurt anybody
inside.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
KATHY: So, everything -- look, everybody is
going to have to go through the system, Steve, it's
that simple, okay? But --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you know that I'm at a
place where I'm, I'm actually anxious for that? It's
just that there's --
KATHY: I, I am too. I'm --
MR. SCHNEIDER: - it's just
people here that aren't like I am, you
see it so clear, they're apprehensive,that there are
know, that don't
they're scared
O Q 47
especially because of Friday night all the more. I
mean, that's what bothers me more than anything else.
I thought we were making like super headway. I even
got to talk to David a few times that night and he had
a smile on his face, he had a happy, good conversation
with John Cox and then all of a sudden bingo.
Yesterday was a total - so totally different, so
totally different. I was hoping to talk to this John
Dolan again which they call John-2 again, but, you
know, obviously I have not had that opportunity.
KATHY: I, I, I don't know why the
negotiations you feel have broke down. I really feel
that -- you know, you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: well, just because they were
so decent, so friendly. People were coming out, it was
snowballing, I told them clearly it was and then bingo,
they cut off - without even warning cut off the
electricity, Ollie never called back.
KATHY: I don't know why Ollie didn't call
back. I mean I stayed there --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I -- well, anyway, I gave
them credit --
KATHY: -- I stayed there all day.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - I gave them credit where
he could maybe call back the next day but - which was
yesterday, never happened.
Q CY *8
KATHY: I stayed there all day
indiscernible! call -- back.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They had a colder attitude.
Maybe it was Dick, maybe - I don't know, but it was
just colder. It seemed like the negotiators had little
or no control whatsoever, that there were those above
them that didn't have the same insight as themselves.
KATHY: Well, that's, that's true. I mean,
there is higher-ups in every, in every situation. I
mean also, Steve, you got to also remember when we come
out and we make our statements to the media, right now
the situation has been going on so long the media is
leaving and I know you know that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Of course.
KATHY: I mean, I'm sure that the thing will
pick back up --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, for myself, Kathy --
KATHY: - if everybody were to come out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - understand for David and
myself and a lot of people here I really don't care
about the media. I had a life to live two weeks ago
and I wasn't in this because I wanted some kind of
adverse media coverage --
KATHY: No, but don't we want the truth told?
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- or some kind of infamy or
notoriety because that's what it is.
O It 4'
KATHY: But we want the truth to be told.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, if that's what God
would have, but one does not need to lean on the arm of
the world or to do crazy or weird things to be able to
speak to -- through the airwaves. So I don't, I don't
see that as anything extremely advantageous. The day
that anybody comes out -- or, or let me speak for
myself: the day that I come out, I mean I would like to
be able to have someone there to monitor --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Spoken in
background! Steve, there's a tank right on our
property by the little lake sitting at the lake.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Like right now there
is a tank right on our property right - it's so close
to the building, it's right next to the little lake
setting up lights on us. So, you know, that goes real
far for these negotiations and people coming out too.
So what, what can I say?
KATHY: I just, I just hope, Steve, that you
realize that coming out peacefully is the only answer
to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Coming out peacefully is the
only answer, Kathy?
KATHY: -- to ending this situation with,
without God doing something.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Kathy, you don't think I
O O 5°
realize that?
KATHY: Laughter! I know, I just need to --
that's why I'm here on the phone.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. I mean, these are
things that are considered constantly, these are things
that I'm thinking even for myself all the time that I
want, but I, I feel I've got a responsibility with
others here that, you know, not to leave them sit but
encourage and, and communicate with the, try to help
them, help them see it clearly and that's what I've
been doing.--
KATHY: Well, you understand --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's why I was so
disappointed because of what happened Friday night
because I mean --
KATHY: You understand --
MR. SCHNEIDER: - after all the talking, my
voice was hoarse and sore, thought I'd really gotten
somewhere and then all of a sudden it's, it's like I
just -- it was like I had no tools, nothing to work
with, I've lost my credibility to some degree with
these people.
KATHY
myself if I can
understand that
contact with mySteve, for -- on a personal note
remember what I was fixing to say,
as long as I am out here I have no
-- you know, I'm on my own, right?from
you
Q U 5
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
KATHY: Okay. I have no contact with
daytoday events with my belief, right?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
KATHY: I don't know what God's going to do,
I don't know what's going to happen.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, just hang on to what
you remember or what you believe or what you choose to
believe, it's up to you. I mean, you've got freedom of
choice, of course, and we all know what the issues are.
There's a book called Naham, a book called Habakkuk, a
book called Revelation.
KATHY: And I've been reading them all.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Good.
KATHY: Especially the Psalms and I've even
been --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Naham, Naham is a reality
right now. It's no longer a prophecy, it's history in
the making.
KATHY: I know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So I mean, you know, these
people they still believe in the Bible, the only reason
why they ever came here is because they already believe
there was some credibility to that source of
information and that's why they have chosen to stay
even though the adversity here and -- but of course
0 . 52they've given a lot of thought as thow this should be
resolved each as an individual. And a lot of them were
starting to look at, you know, what was happening with
yourself and Ollie until that incident. And they're --
now a lot of them are, are stepping back a little bit
and still watching and looking. So I'm just hoping
that something can be resolved or --
KATHY: Well, all right, maybe --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I want I'd like to
actually pick up where I was with John. If you would
get off the phone you could tell them I'd like to pick
up back with John Dolan again and see what could be
worked out from where him and I were at the time that
we broke off speaking to one another.
KATHY: Okay. Let me just tell you, too,
that you are watching what happens to me and Ollie and
I'm hoping that a positive note will be sent to you by
what happens to me Tuesday. And I'm hoping that maybe
then I can call you back and if we can get --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I hope so. Please --
KATHY: -- if we can get the --
MR. SCHNEIDER: - I hope they will allow
that because that will -- that would be another plus --
KATHY: Yeah. I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that would be another help
for sure.