Document text
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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #157
3/24/93
06:40 22:06
2
Tape 157!
JENNIFER: Whoever gets on the phone, if they
have a kid, get me their kid.
[Telephone ringing for long interval.]
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JENNIFER: Hi. Good morning. Who is this?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is Steve. Who is
this?
JENNIFER: Steve, hi. My, my name is
Jennifer. I've been wanting to talk to you for awhile.
Your sister Sue has been calling in to me just about
every day.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And who are you, Jennifer?
JENNIFER: I'm a negotiator for the FBI.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see.
" JENNIFER: I'm out of Dallas and I drove down
Y
and §'ve been here, and Sue's been calling in to me
every day. I feel like I know you already, I've talked
to Sue so much.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Jennifer --
JENNIFER: Yeah?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Today is a, is a sabbath of
ours. It's a very important time of day and --
JENNIFER: Today is. I didn't -- I thought
your sabbath --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
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JENNIFER: -- was Friday --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is. But, see, that's
apparently what people don't understand. If they did
look at the giblg, they would find out there are --
what -- it's called Rosh Kadesh, which are 12 new
moons. There's 12 out of the year. And --
JENNIFER: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - those are considered to
be sabbaths.
JENNIFER: Wasn't that yesterday? Wasn't the
new moon yesterday?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It started yesterday. When
it starts, it goes right on through till when the sun
goes down today.
JENNIFER: So, it was sundown --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: --
j JENNIFER: -- yesterday to sundown today?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
JENNIFER: Is that what you've been doing all
morning?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JENNIFER: Are, are you'all --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, see, David is
extremely himself irate because of, we had mentioned a
number of times, about them playing the tapes during
certain periods of time.
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JENNIFER; Sure. Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And -- meaning like the
daily.
JENNIFER: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And they've --
JENNIFER: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- started doing that
recently. So, because of that, the communication isn't
going to be there anymore.
JENNIFER: Well, wait a second. We, we have
stopped doing it during the daily -- we've, we've
respected your daily -- I believe that was --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, they -- you - they
haven't. you know, they really haven't. And for that
reason, until they come around, there will be no
communication. And the word is from David that they
I
will have to do what they have to do. We're just going
to have to trust in our God. If he does nothing, well,
it ends however it ends.
JENNIFER: Oh -- ah --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But that -- I'm just - I
wanted to pass on the statement and that's what I was
just --
JENNIFER: Is, is David --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- told.
JENNIFER: -- there?
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's nowhere nearby where
I'm at at the moment, because the phone, since we've
gone had so many lines
JENNIFER: Yeah
STEVE SCHNEIDER
JENNIFER: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER
close to him.
JENNIFER: Okay
more phone cord to you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER
what we will do, if I getrun over --
-- and disconnected --
- this one's not that
Do you need us to send in
No. At this time, I guess
-- I'm going to be talking to
him. And if he has something to say, I'll call back.
Otherwise :-
JENNIFER: Yeah, I'd love to talk to him,
because, you know, we, we've talked about your sabbath
O1.
quiée often and, and we've really tried to respect
that. I know we did that last Saturday and, and,
honestly, we really didn't know today was your sabbath.
We knew about the new moon and we knew that was
important to you, but I didn't realize it was actually
a sabbath. And we did try to respect your daily this
morning. we didn't call you between 8 and 10 because
we knew that was your daily.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If I remember right, I
think the tape was playing, though, during that period
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of time.
JENNIFER: This morning --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JENNIFER: - it was playing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes, it was. It was.
JENNIFER: Oh, I -- I'm completely unaware
that a, a tape was playing.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JENNIFER: I'll have to check --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact --
JENNIFER: -- on that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - they've played some
until -- I mean, through the night, through the
morning. It, it hasn't mattered what time it is. The
position that the people are starting to take here
is -- '" -
I
_3 JENNIFER: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the more that's done,
the less they're going want to communicate and the
least they're thinking about coming out or having
anything to do with those that seem to be breaking
their word, disrespecting their beliefs, their belief
system. I mean, if they can't show something in the
situation that's taking place now, how much less when
they get out?
JENNIFER: Well, I know we've been - you've
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been talking to the people. I can tell your voice has
been hoarse sometimes ~
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah.
JENNIFER: because you've been speaking to
them so much. You've really pickened up the slack for
David, because I know he's been so sick. So, when you
have been talking to him in the past day or so, and
especially on your sabbath, ha have they mentioned
any anybody mentioned the possibility of leaving?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Has anybody here mentioned
the --
JENNIFER: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- possibility of leaving?
JENNIFER: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No one has lately.
~ JENNIFER: No one has. When was the last
timé you talked to someone who was interested?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yesterday.
JENNIFER: Yesterday. And, and you feel that
maybe they'll be ready today after they've talked to
him?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I - I'm pretty sure
they won't be because of Byron's attitude, what he had
shown. Listening to these tapes over and over again,
morning, noon, and night --
JENNIFER: Um-hum.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- it's at times -- it's
definitely disintegrating any kind of communication
we've had with you people. And it's --
JENNIFER: Well, you have to realize it's not
us. You --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, look.
JENNIFER: - it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to --
JENNIFER: -- we're not --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- be putting the - look,
it -- it is the -~ our time right now where I don't
want to be discussing these issues. I'll be talking
with David. If he himself wants to communicate or pass
on a message, I will do that.
JENNIFER: Okay. That - -
I STEVE SCHNEIDER: But other than that --
3 JENNIFER: -- would be fine.,_ .
.,;
' STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I '- but I WO92.1ld
appreciate talking to you further here --
JENNIFER: Good. I would, I would like to
talk to you some more, because I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JENNIFER: -- I've heard so much about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
JENNIFER: -- you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hearing another voice is
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definitely going to be a breath of fresh air.
JENNIFER: When, when can we talk again?
What's the best time?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I don't know. Let me
talk and communicate with him, and I'll go from there,
but otherwise it may not be till the sun goes down.
JENNIFER: Okay. While you -- while you're
talking to David, ask him this. This is a real
important question.
srsvs scrmaznsn; All right.
JENNIFER: Find out
to pick up communications and
again.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I
JENNIFER: Now, let
the mechanics of things. You
f
peole that have been in yourwhat it is that we can do
getithings doing -- going
ll do that.
me, let me also explain
know about the, the
yard and the tapes and
things like that. Those are things I don't have
control over. So, let's talkabout something I do have
control over, find out something that, that I can do
for him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, but, listen, Jennifer,
I mean, I, I appreciate what you're saying and doing,
but I don't really -- okay. You don't have control
over it. We're going to have to, in this building,
show these people once and for all, this is what's
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going to be done, that if you tell us one thing and
they go contrary and you don't have any control --
JENNIFER: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - then there will be no
communication because it does not matter.
JENNIFER: Well, I can tell you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If they're not hearing us
and they keep on enforcing their will upon a people
that put God first, they don't understand it, so it -
something's got to be manifested.
JENNIFER: I can tell you what I do have
control over. I have talked to the sheriff personally,
every day as a matter of fact. He's come to visit, to
find out how things are going, and he's absolutely
assured me of everything running extremely smoothly
once -~
g STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I don't --
' . JENNIFER: -- it leaves here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- believe he has much
authority with especially as powerful agency like the
one that you are part of which controls the media,
controls everything --
JENNIFER: Oh, you have to realize that the
sheriff has absolute control in this county and that's
where everybody is - ~
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'll tell --
ll
JENNIFER: -- going --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you who has --
JENNIFER: -- to his place.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- absolute control is God,
and so for --
JENNIFER: Oh, well, you're right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- just being allowed --
JENNIFER: You're right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And hopefully I'll learn
something out of this. But --
JENNIFER: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- anyway --
JENNIFER: Why don't I do this, Steve? I'll
let you go back and talk to David for awhile and, and
see what he has to say and, and see if he would like to
talk to me. I would really like to talk to him. And,
andthen I'll just - I'll give you awhile to talk to
him and then I'll give you a call back.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let me call you, because we
-- the phone probably won't be answered from here on
out until, like I told you, the sun goes down. If he
wants to talk to you or if he has something to say,
he'll have me initiate the phone call.
JENNIFER: Okay. What I might do is I might
try to call you, and, and I'd appreciate it if you
would pick up the phone because it is --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I can't tell --
JENNIFER: -- just because --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you -- if it happens --
I, I'm almost assured that it probably won't. Because
this is a very important time and it's also a reaction.
I mean, see, we don't, we don't get into the, the areas
of business and the areas that we're speaking of now on
this time. It's a time we devote our minds to God and
understanding his will and what he's choosing to do in
regards to the events of mankind.
JENNIFER: Yeah. And that's, that's a --
extremely important on a sabbath day. What I'd like
you to do is, when you, when you take a break or, or
when a rest period for you, give me a call back and
just let me know how things are going.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll try to do that.
I
;} JENNIFER: All right. And we don't have to
talk a lot of business, but, but I just, I just want to
talk to you and see how things are going --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JENNIFER: -- make sure everyone's all right
in there. Is, is everyone okay --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JENNIFER: - medically? 1
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Everyone's okay.
JENNIFER: Okay._ Great. Just, just give me
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a call in a few hours just to let me know how things
are going. I just want to make sure I keep in touch
with you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I can't say that I will,
but I will be talking to you possibly at the end of the
sabbath --
JENNIFER: Try --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- or, or unless I talk
with him and there's a reason why we should be
communicating further during this period of time until
the sun goes down.
JENNIFER: There's always a reason, and it's
because I just want to talk to you and, and, and make
sure everythings still going --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's fine. But, you
know, respect that this is a very serious time for us.
Thi§'is the --
JENNIFER: And we did.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - sabbath hours. So --
JENNIFER: We respected that last --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - that's the reason why we
don't choose to spend it in conversation of this
manner.
JENNIFER: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I'll talk to you later.
JENNIFER: All right. Well, I'm --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JENNIFER: All, all --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
JENNIFER: -- right, Steve. Bye-bye.
1-*i**
JENNIFER: Steve? Hello? Steve? Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Let it g0.
'ki'***
[Telephone ringing for long interval.!
[The following conversation takes place while
phone is ringing.]
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: This is -- there is a
guy outside who he is David - David is --
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: 6:30, 6:33.
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: And, and a hard line --
told him not to go outside, not to --
'0
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: -- that you -- we need
to tell people you're not supposed to be outside. We
agreed to that. And you take that kind of action --
okay?[Telephone continues to ring.]
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JOHN COX: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just hang on one minute.
JOHN cox; All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let me call you right back,
15
JOHN COX: Hey, we need something resolved.
Somebodys standing outside your front door.
*'l~k*'k
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JOHN COX: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN COX: Hey, don't hang up on me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, no, no. I just had
- I was in fact, just had to -- I was almost
dropping something here, so I had to just call you
right back here.
JOHN COX: Well --
»STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was going to call --
JOHN COX: We --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - you right back.
,, JOHN COX: -- we just got a call that
some?ody had come out one of your side doors, was
standing banging on your front door, didn't have a
shirt on. We're trying to find out what's going on,
because you guys had agreed to give us a call when
somebody's out walking around out there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I was way at the
other end of the building. I just found out myself. I
knew nothing. I'm telling you --
JOHN COX: You know, if you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- nothing --
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JOHN COX: ~- threw somebody out of there or
something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
JOHN COX: You didn't throw somebody out, did
you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. No, no, no. Nothing
like that.
JOHN COX: Who was it that was -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I thought it was somebody
from your, your side -~
' JOHN COX: No, no, no, no. Hey, you know
better than that. Who, who was it that was wandering
around out there?
,STEVE SCHNEIDER: I have never seen him
before in my life.
" JOHN COX: Can you find out for me who it
I
was?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what I'm
trying to find out right now.
JOHN COX: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And let, let --
JOHN COX: Because, you know, we don't need
any kind of problems, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, no. In fact, that's
why I was wondering what was going on. We were all
wondering the same thing.
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JOHN COX: Well, what - can you find out and
give me a call back?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I will.
JOHN COX: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
JOHN COX: Appreciate it.
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[Telephone dialed, then ringing.]
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JOHN COX: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'm still trying to
find out who he is.
JOHN COX: We-- what ~
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I have no idea --
JOHN COX: Tell me what's going on out there,
you know? _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All <>£ a sudden ~- I was at
one, I was at one end of the building, and all of a
sudden - I
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I heard everybody saying
hey, there's a man out frontr There's a man out front,
and he's coming -- he's at, he's at the porch.
JOHN COX: Well, apparently he came out the
end of the building down around the chicken coops or
whatever and went wandering around, took his shirt off,
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standing around your front door and banging on the
door, and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's when people
started wondering if it -- I
JOHN COX: We just can't have this happening.
You know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Would -- you're telling me.
I mean, I've never seen the man in my life.
JOHN COX: I want -- some things have -- you
know, we just got to change some things and, and have
some open --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I don't think John bel--
JOHN COX: -- lines of communication.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I, I don't think John
believes me.
" JOHN cox: What?
I
~§ STEVE SCHNEIDER: That -- did you send this
guy in, John?
JOHN COX: Don't be playing games with me
now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Huh?
JOHN COX: We don't do things like that. You
know better than that. He's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, John, I --
JOHN COX: -- somebody from inside there.
And --
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STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: John thinks
he's from the inside here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John?
JOHN COX: Send him out then.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Listen --
JOHN COX: Send him out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm talking to him right
now. I don't know if we should or not.
JOHN COX: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is it going to be safe?
JOHN COX: - send him down the road?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I don't - I'm not --
huh?
JOHN COX: Just send him down the road. Just
send him right down the road.
~ STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said he, he said he came
all ghe way from three states over. He came to hear
the Eiglg. He came to check us out. He says he's a
JOHN COX: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Christian.
JOHN COX: Either, either tell us who he is
or send him down the road.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm trying to find that
out, John, right now.
JOHN COX: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm trying to find that
-~
out .20
JOHN COX: Is he talking to David now?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes, he is. David just
came around. He just tried to get up here and he just
showed up
minute.by the guy.
JOHN COX: Well, let me talk to David for a
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just a minute.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Is David
nearby still?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible!.
Strangest
happening.
I
§_
have this
out thereSTEVE SCHNEIDER: Strangest thing, I swear.
thing I've ever --
JOHN COX: All right. We can't have this
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What do you mean we can't
happen, John?
JOHN COX: We cannot --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What do you mean we ~-
JOHN COX: - have people wandering around
You know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are, are you --
JOHN COX: Some--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - going to --
JOHN COX: ~ somebodys going to get hurt.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: David says are you going to
condemn us if it rains today?
JOHN COX: We're talking substantive matters.
We're --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John, I'm going to --
JOHN COX: -- talking safety.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I'm going to put the --
you listen to me before I put the phone down.
JOHN COX: Hey --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to tell you the
truth. Now, listen to me. I've never seen the man.
Nobody in this building ever seen him before in their
life.
JOHN COX: Well, then ju-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Nobody here.
JOHN COX: -- just find out who he is and
sendihim down the road.
' smsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay. But --
JOHN COX: Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - believe me, tr- don't
call me a liar, because I'm telling you the truth.
JOHN COX: Well, just find out who he is and
send him --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I am --
JOHN COX: -- down the road.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John, that's what I'm
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trying to do --
JOHN cox = Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- now. I'm trying to find
out what he -- how he got here, what he --
JOHN COX: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - needs, what he wants.
JOHN COX: Go find David and put him on with
me. would you, please?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And plus, plus -- listen.
The reason we haven't been answering the phone, we told
you that --
JOHN COX: I know it's your sabbath.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- it's the sabbath day.
Okay. 1
JOHN COX: And we respected that.
~ STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. IP11 be talking to
, .
you;§n a bit. '
JOHN COX: Thank you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
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UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: Somebody is -- if you
don't know who he is, we've got to find out what's
going on.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JOHN COX: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
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JOHN COX: We've got a couple of helicopters
up close to where you are --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN COX: -- because they're looking for the
guy that was wandering around out there. Make sure
nobody goes up to one of those windows and sticks some
long rifle or something out one of those windows --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John, believe - okay --
JOHN COX: -- because they hear some
helicopter flying around.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No one has ever stuck
anything out a window. Even --
JOHN COX: Well, I just want --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- even from day one.
JOHN COX: -- I just want to assure you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Listen, can I say something
I
to ou?
JOHN COX: -- that they're up there and don't
do anything --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Listen to me --
JOHN COX: -- crazy.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- John. Okay. Listen to
me once, just for a minute. You know, you, you h-
your men have been exposed off and on in the last
three, four, or five days. If we were a mean, a bad
people, people intent on, on murder or whatever,
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killing people, I mean, there would have been ample
opportunity. We're not into that, John.
JOHN COX: Well, I hear what you're saying.
I just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: SO ~-
JOHN COX: -- wanted to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but --
JOHN COX: -- let you know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - we're not --
JOHN COX: -- that helicopters are up there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. But when people
are in the windows -- '
JOHN COX: which may come as a surprise to
you or --y
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I --
' JOHN COX: -- a shock and, and --
I
3 STEVE SCHNEIDER: John. No, that's not
surprising. We're - in fact, when people - what are
windows for? They're for looking out. So, people look
out the windows around here all the time, morning,
noon, and night, like we always have. No one --
JOHN COX: We don't have --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- no one --
JOHN COX: -- any problem with anybody --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN COX: -- looking out a window.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: No ones ever as much as
even stuck a broom handle out the window or --
JOHN COX: Well, that's good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - a door.
JOHN COX: That's good. Did you find out who
the guy is?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm - that's what I'm --
were still trying to do right now.
JOHN COX: He won't tell you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he's saying he came
here, that he was impressed by God to come here, that
he wanted to know what we were all about.
JOHN COX: What's his name?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He - in fact --
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: What is his
name now?
'0'
v UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible!.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said he would have to
speak to you himself.
JOHN COX: Well, put him on the phone.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Okay. DO you
want to talk to him? His name is John. This is John
Cox on the phone. He's an FBI agent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Mr. COX?
JOHN COX: Yes? Who am I talking to?
26
UNKNOWN MALE: Sir, if you would like for
this all to end, allow God to --
JOHN COX: Whom am I --
UNKNOWN MALE: -- handle it --
JOHN COX: - talking to?
UNKNOWN MALE: - allow God to handle it,
because --
JOHN COX: I don't even want to talk to you
if you don't want to give me your name.
UNKNOWN MALE: You have a good day, then,
sir.
iiiii
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JOHN COX: Steven.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I know --
~ JOHN COX: It sounds like you got a fruitcake
on yéur hands there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, it's possible. It's
probable --
JOHN COX: And -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - but --
JOHN COX: Let me talk to David for a minute,
will you?
STEVE TO DAVID KORESH: David, he wants to
talk to you.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: That's,
0 O
27
that S the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said it's still new moon
yet.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: D0 you
want to try to get this -- .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Meaning it's --
JOHN COX: Well, whens the sabbath over?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: When the sun has gone --
JOHN COX: Do you know what time?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- down. When it's dark.
What time does the --
JOHN COX: Look. Let, let me, let me -- I'm
not going to interfere with your sabbath, all right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Umhum.
JOHN COX: And we've respected that. What I
want you to do is, is, as soon as the sun sets, have
David call me because it sounds like you've got a real
fruitcake out there, that we don't need this kind of
problem. And --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I must admit, it was --
JOHN COX: -- and send this damn fool down
the road. -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I must admit, I've never in
my life seen anything quite like it. And everybody --
JOHN cox= Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I could hear voices
/
92
/
92O C
28
around in the building saying who's that on the
outside -- l
JOHN COX: If you've got to have a couple of
people take him down the road, he's just going to throw
a wrench in everything we've been working on for 25
days. So, do me a favor. You assess him, okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's what -- yeah --
JOHN COX: You can do that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We're trying to do that
right --
JOHN COX: You and David assess him and get
him out of there, and have David give me a call. Or if
you're getting ready to get him out of there --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, we'll, we'll give you a
call shortly here.
M JOHN COX: When does the sun set?
2 STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think it's pretty close.
I'm not ~
JOHN COX: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- sure, but it seems to be
very close.
JOHN COX; We, we told you we'd respect the
sabbath. We think he rode a horse in there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Seriously?
JOHN COX: That's what we think. Hey, you've
got a screwball in here trying to cause problems. We
0 O
29
don't need that. You dont need it; we don't need it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, let me call you back.
JOHN cox: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let me see what I can find
out here.
JOHN cox: Okay. And --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN COX: - have David call me back.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN cox; All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
iiiii
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JOHN COX: Hey, Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Just --
'.
3 STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's -- in fact, he said
he's coming right over to the phone here.
JOHN COX: Who is?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David.
JOHN COX: Oh, okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But he's talking to this
guy right now, trying to --
JOHN COX: Sounds like a real fruitcake.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I must admit I've met
a lot of different types in my life, but --
30
JOHN COX: Not the kind you bring home to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I asked --
JOHN COX: -- dinner every night?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I asked him how he got
here. He hasn't made that clear.
JOHN COX: Well, we know how he got there.
On a horse.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: POsiti-- I mean --
JOHN COX: Is that a sign?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Positively, huh?
JOHN COX: -Yeah. Is that a sign? The best
thing that I can recommend to you is to put him out the
front door, we'll pick him up in a Bradley and we'll
get him out of there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; Well, David's still talking
with him. You know, if the man - anybody that'd risk
their life or whatever else --
JOHN COX: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- or how - whatever --
JOHN COX: Hey --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the guy's thinking,
wherever he's from --
JOHN COX: We, we want this guy out before he
starts causing problems.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, so far --
JOHN COX: You, you know where I'm coming --
O O
31
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- we have a --
JOHN COX: -- from. _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of course, he's contained
and, you know, right, right in an area where there's
not a problem. Yes, David's trying to --
JOHN COX: Yeah, but what I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- figure out what he
needs --
JOHN COX: He is not one of your people.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: N0.
JOHN COX: And in the middle of the night he
wants to start wandering around out there --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I realize --
JOHN COX: -- we've got problems. And --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I realize that.
~ JOHN COX: -- and we would just rather deal
i
with him outside here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: People actually at first
thought that he came out of the building, huh?
JOHN COX: What -- yeah. He was first
spotted down on the side of the building, you know,
where the, where the water tower is, wandering around
there, and then they saw him come around the corner and
go in the building.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: Not
C C
32
discernible!.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He, he's saying I'm
talking to the, to the man now, and he says that if you
allow him to speak he'll speak with you, but he wants
time to be able to say some things to you. And
otherwise -
JOHN COX: We w-- I have nothing to discuss
with him. I just want him out the door --
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: Not
discernible!.
JOHN COX: -- and we'll talk to him when he
comes out.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Yeah, he just
wants you out the door.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: He can Come
back here and talk to you. '
I
~} UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: Not
discernible!.
JOHN COX: Sounds like a nut.
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND; All his
decisions in which he has, he has not even seen him. I
am here that God has sent and no man shall --
JOHN COX: You --
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: -- turn me away.
JOHN COX: You hear what he's saying, right?
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: His law
O I
33
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'm listening,
yeah.
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: - and law is --
any one --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Straight up?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said God told him to
come and he's here. Oh, man. Well, what, what --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We have a funny connection
here.
JOHN cox: Hey.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
JOHN COX: I think God sent you a strange
messenger there, and the best thing you can do is send
him out to us --
~ STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just --
§ JOHN COX: -- and we'll handle him so he's
1
not wandering around stirring up the pot.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUNDI Not
discernible! pick him up in a Bradley, not wandering
around there --
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: Not
discernible!.
- UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: Tell him that he
can -- I'd rather be in the hand of people who he
considers as not discernible! people in the world that
C O
34
would kill people for no reason and call themselves
justice for doing so.
JOHN COX: Hey, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Did you hear?
JOHN COX: You, you've got a case on your
hands there.
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: Not
discernible! government can kill people --
JOHN COX: Do you know that?
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: -- for no
reason?
JOHN COX: Steve?
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: Fire your arms
at somebody who wants to just talk in peace.
JOHN COX: Steve?
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: Are you a --
O
#? STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes?
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: - government of
love or are you --
JOHN COX: Why don't you t-
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: -- a government
of --
JOHN COX: - why don't you --
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: I have nothing
to do with --
JOHN COX: - get somebody and take him out
Q C
35
that door.
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: I'm not
discernible! find no --
JOHN COX: He is going to do nothing ~-
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: - because not
discernible! --
JOHN COX: - but cause problems.
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: your pledges,
I don't know what --
JOHN COX: Can you ~-
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: - you will do
to me.
JOHN COX: Do you agree?
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: stay here
while -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm listening right now.
P.
5 UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: not
discernible!.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICES IN BACKGROUND: Not
discernible.!
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Don't do that.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible!.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Seriously,
don't, don't worry.
O O
36
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE: Not
discernible!.
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: That, that's the
reason I don't want --
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: Not
discernible!.
UNKNOWN MALE IN BACKGROUND: Not
discernible! that I'm not at all not discernible!, you
be not discernible! both sides we love these guys too.
STEVE TO UNKNOWN MALE: Yeah.
UNKNOWN MALE TO STEVE: And you don't
understand it.
JOHN COX: Why don't they have two guys take
him out that --
DAVID KORESH: Hello, John?
h JOHN COX; David. It sounds like you got a
rea§ fruitcake on your hands.
H DAVID KORESH: Well, I've - you can't judge
a man until you hear him. I mean, that's what our
policy's been all along. And I'm not the only one that
talks. I have to let others talk too. And --
JOHN COX: Well, a screamer and a hollerer
that could cause some problems for everybody that's
concerned. Right? He's not --
DAVID KORESH: Well --
JOHN COX: - he's not one of your --
92
/37
DAVID KORESH: John --
JOHN COX: - children, is he?
DAVID KORESH: Well, we've never met him
before, but the thing of it is he, he came here, he
risked his life, he said he wanted to hear our side of
the story. And, you know, Christ did some screaming in
his day and all the prophets used to scream, and we
can't really judge a man - he's -- you know, he -- the
guy risked his life. I mean --
JOHN COX: Why did you say he risked his
life? Nobodys just going to indiscriminately harm
somebody out there.
DAVID KORESH: Well, now --
JOHN COX: We'd just, we'd just rather have
him out of there so he doesn't go wandering around
after the sun sets.
I
3p DAVID KORESH: No. We're will- we'll --
JOHN COX: And that can happen.
DAVID KORESH: - we've we'll ad-- we're
explaining to him - the guy, the guy is, is, is
intelligent. He's cool here. We're explaining to him
the safety, you know ~-
JOHN COX: Well --
DAVID KORESH: -- procedures. And ~-
JOHN COX: I hope --
DAVID KORESH: he just wants to he
O I
wants to hear the seals. He wants to know,
why we've come under fire.
JOHN COX: who is he? What's his38
you know,
name?
DAVID KORESH: He, he doesn't ha-- he hasn't
given a name yet.
JOHN COX: I mean, if I was you I would want
to know who this guy is. Would, wouldn't you?
DAVID KORESH: Well --
JOHN COX: Ask him what his name is?
DAVID KORESH: He's -- I have received people
from all over. You know. The guy --
JOHN COX: Hey --
DAVID KORESH: - the guy's cool here and, I
mean, he, he has a, he has a prophetic voice to him,
but we have to deal with that --
JOHN cox= Yeah, but -
# DAVID KORESH: -- John.
JOHN COX: - he could be some ringer that
somebody sent in there too. You -- we have
on the media saying, you know, round up and
and let's try and put an end to this thing.
the right-wing groups, the left-wing groups
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, I understand
JOHN COX: We --had groups
go there
You know,
all that.
DAVID KORESH: We're Cool with this.
JOHN COX: don't need --
39
DAVID KORESH: - with this --
JOHN COX: -- some ringer coming in there and
then walking out and telling some other people hey,
let's go in and really cause some problem. We don't
need that. You don't need that.
DAVID KORESH: But we're not, we're not --
we're -- like I said, I --
JOHN cox: Okay?
DAVID KORESH: -- mean, we're not into that
either, J--
JOHN COX: You bet.
DAVID KORESH: John, you've talked with us
all these days. I've tried to show you things from the
book, and when you haven't wanted to know it --
JOHN COX: Hey, I, I'm just trying --
1.I DAVID KORESH: You know, we've tolerated --
"3 JOHN COX: to preclude a --
DAVID KORESH: - we, we've --
JOHN COX: -- problem here.
DAVID KORESH: - tolerated - I know. We've
tol~-
JOHN COX: You know?
DAVID KORESH: I know. We've tolerated you
and you've tolerated us.
JOHN COX: That's right.
DAVID KORESH: You know. And, so, I --
40
JOHN COX: Find out who this boot-- boon--
well, whoever he is - find out who he is, will you?
Do me a favor? _
DAVID KORESH: Okay.
JOHN COX: And give me a call back?
DAVID KORESH: Okay. We're to, we're to talk
to him -- with him. We're going to get --
JOHN COX: Okay.
DAVID KORESH: -- a lot going here now.
JOHN COX: Do that, will you?
DAVID KORESH: All right, JOhn.
JOHN COX: Thank you.
DAVID KORESH: Bye.
= w 1 1 * *
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: He may be a new
1. -
spokesman for the Branch Davidians. _
4 [Telephone ringing for long interval.]
[Telephone redialed, then ringing for long
interval.]
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: They're toying with us.
[Telephone redialed, then ringing for long
interval.! I
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: Yesterday morning he
wouldn't answer the phone and this morning.
End of tape 157!
92
//92>[W5g
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25UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #158
March 24 - 25, 1993
10:06 p.m. 8:45 a.m.
Tape 158!
Phone dialing! Busy signal!
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
GRAHAM: Hello?
JOHN: Graham?
GRAHAM: Yeah?
JOHN: This is John.
GRAHAM: Just hang on a minute. Steve's
coming, I think.
JOHN: Good.
GRAHAM: Yeah. This one, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JOHN: Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: What's -- you
happened with the other phone?
" JOHN: What other phone?
II;} MR. SCHNEIDER: We've been -~
phone we've been using is deader than a
JOHN: This is the only phone
talking to you on.
MR. SCHNEIDER: What on earth
here, Graham?know what's
well, the main
door nail.
I've been
is going on
JOHN: Hey, I've called in there --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That one, that one was pulled
out? How?
JOHN: Steve?
F3
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes?
JOHN: Listen. I called in at 8:08, 8:14,
8:41, 9 -- it rings -- and 10:02 and it just rings and
rings and rings and I don't get an answer.
MR. SCHNEIDER: What on -- just a minute.
Let me find out what's going -- I know there's cords
everywhere around here.
JOHN: Well, listen.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes?
JOHN: We're on the phone now so that's,
that's working.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'm on a different
phone. That's what doesn't make sense because when I
was talking to you just an hour ago or whenever it
was "
, JOHN: Well, we --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it was a total different
A
phone here.
JOHN: We haven't done anything different at
this end, believe me. I've just been --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I believe you --
JOHN: -- sitting right here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - I believe you, I just
don't know -- we're looking --
JOHN: What, what's going on with this bird?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he's right now talking
4
to him trying to find out information from him.
He's -- the guy's at least relaxed now. He seems to be
real --
JOHN: Well, what's his name?
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- stressed out and --
JOHN: Who is he?
MR. SCHNEIDER: He still hasn't given his
name but it sounds like he's from the southern part of
the state --
JOHN: He won't --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that much.
JOHN: -- he won't tell, he won't tell David
what his name is?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, now -- well, he's kind
of relaxed now. You know, he's sitting there, David's
offering him a little food. He says relax now and, and
I
thefQuy's --
JOHN: Look, look. Let me, let me tell you
the bottom line.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: We want him out of there because we
don't need a problem and the problem could be that
unless you've got this fellow hog-tied he's free to
roam around all he wants --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, believe me, we're --
JOHN: -- he can walk out a door when
5
somebody goes to, to bed, he can wander around there.
There are weapons in there. We don't need any -- you
don't need a problem, we don't need a problem.
MR. SCHNEIDER: We have -- you know, we have
a number of people watching him, you know,
constantly --
JOHN: I, I hope.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- so he's not going to be,
he's not going to be loose or anything here.
JOHN: He did not sound like the most sane,
rational individual.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I must admit as yourself that
when he was on the outside and -- he was -- someone --
see, what all happened, we heard someone banging at the
door and we couldn't figure out what was -- and then
someone"came and got me and I says well, what's going
Q
on, and they says, well, there's somebody outside the
door. And finally I looked out and I says, well, who
are you and, and we didn't know if it was from you
QUYS "
JOHN: Well, well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- if you were pulling
something on us. We weren't sure what was happening.
JOHN: The, the bottom line is we want you
and David to convince this guy -- he may be the nicest
guy in the world, fine fellow, well -- we want him out
O O
6
of there because --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's why David - you
know, but David, you know, having the kind of heart he
does for humanity has got the guy at least relaxed
now --
JOHN: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- he's trying to --
JOHN: Well, that's good. Relax him.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, he's calmed down now and
he's --
JOHN: But, but the bottom line is --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! communicate
with the guy. I
JOHN: -- we want him out, you know? The
bottom line is we want him out of there. We don't need
a problem inside --
4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Believe me --
> JOHN: - we don't need a problem tomorrow.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- believe me, John, I don't
want anybody running around that's half gone that -- I
can't even sleep, even the two hours I've been
averaging here is --
JOHN: That's right. That - well, you, you
had to average a little more since yesterday and today,
you know?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah, I, I did pretty
good last night.
JOHN: Because nobody bothered --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think I got about five --
JOHN: -- you last night.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- five or six hours I had.
JOHN: Hey, nobody bothered you last night
and said let David do his --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's true. That's true.
JOHN: -- his praying and his counseling and
nobody bothered you on the Sabbath. So --
MR. SCHNEIDER: What happened now? Is
Jennifer going to be back on tomorrow then? She said
she had a --
JOHN: Oh, I don't know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- few things she wanted to
share with me. I told her well, just not on the
Sabbéth indiscernible!. l
A JOHN: I, I have, I have absolutely no idea.
She probably got off around 6 o'clock so that I don't
know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: But the issue that we have to cover
this evening, okay, the only issue that we have to
cover this evening is that guy's got to come out of
there and we have to find out who the hell he is.
Okay?
r
92-__ '5...
8
MR. SCHNEIDER; Well, that's what we're
trying to do too --
JOHN: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - is trying to get now where
he's at least speaking reasonably sanely so --
JOHN: You work at it.
MR. SCHNEIDER; He seems to be okay now. I
mean, he --
JOHN: Do I have to talk to David --
MR. SCHNEIDER: - more normal --
JOHN: -- about it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- he seems very normal
and --
JOHN: Let me ask you: do I have to talk to
David about it or can you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I mean it's not necessary
indiscernible! of course.
JOHN: Can you talk to David and get, get our
concern to him?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Of course.
JOHN: Whether you got to whisper in his ear,
whatever you got to do, tell him we need that guy out
of there before he is a total embarrassment as far as
the potential threat that can be caused in there. I
don't want anybody to get hurt inside that place and I
don't want him to stir something up that will just put
O D
9
us in turmoil. You know it and I know it, right?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hmm.
JOHN: We've gone too far to let somebody
that's unbalanced cause a problem who just wanders in.
I mean, that's the bizarre part.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I must admit it was a pretty
unique experience. I mean, I, I -- it's hard for me to
be believe even to be honest with you.
JOHN: Well, well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, --
JOHN: -~ do what I ask you, will you?
MR. SCHNEIDER: But --
_JOHN: You know, be firm about it, that this
guy - you don't know who he is and we sure don't know
who he is and --
" MR. SCHNEIDER: John, I tell you, I don't
know}
JOHN: -- and he didn't sound very good, good
on there and he might be a threat to David too.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I must admit my eyes
were big and round too about the time I was talking to
you there and he was indiscernible!.
JOHN: Hey, David doesn't need any problems
either and, and who knows where this guy's coming from?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he seems to be okay. I
guess he's been a little bit too'enthusiastic about his
O I
l0
understanding of God.
JOHN: That's probably a kind way of putting
it isn't it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, well, he seems to be
much more normal now than he was appearing when he was
the door, so --
JOHN: Well, well, listen, talk to David,
talk to David and give me a commitment, all right --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hey, you know what
indiscernible!
JOHN: -- that you're going to get this guy
out of there, otherwise --
MR. SCHNEIDER: John, there people actually
here thought it was one of you guys pulling something
on us. I had to convince about ten people here hey,
no, this guy, I don't know how it happened, but --
u§ JOHN: Well, you know better now don't you?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, remember when you
were asking me if it was one of our guys jumping out of
the window and coming around to the - I couldn't
figure out what you were talking about.
JOHN: Well, now you do.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: You, you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Laughter!
JOHN: - you're listening to him aren't you?
O O
ll
MR. SCHNEIDER: Jumping out the window
indiscernible!.
JOHN: Listen, give, give me a commitment --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: - Steven, that you will talk --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
JOHN: -- you'll talk to David and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, I will be, yes, I will
be.
JOHN: -- I'm going to call you back in a
half hour. Let me know you're making some progress,
otherwise I got to talk to David --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
JOHN: - to get that guy out of there. we
don't want to play around with him, okay? And when
I do me a favor.
I
j MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, yeah.
JOHN: I'm going to hang up. You call me
right back and make sure that thing works.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Now, is this one of
those that is --
JOHN: Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- to just -- all you do is
pick it up and it's to ring through indiscernible!
JOHN: I guess so.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, let's try it. Okay.
12
JOHN: Okay. If, if, if not --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll talk to you in just
in a minute.
JOHN: - I'll call you back.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, good.
JOHN: All right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
JOHN: Bye.
Phones hung up!
'k~k~k~k*
JOHN: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, John?
JOHN: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's working.
JOHN: Okay.
. MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't know what -- now, I'm
telling you, this is a weird thing because when, when
you called before I was on a total different phone. I,
I was sure the one line -- remember you guys gave us
two lines recently, right, I mean one and the next day
we got another. Is that true?
JOHN: Yeah, I guess so.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it is.
JOHN: I guess so.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So --
JOHN: Yeah, I know there are two phones in
O O
13
there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we -- what we did was
switch the phone to this last line --
JOHN: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - and it's been working
until all of a sudden you say you've been trying to
like call even in the past hour, I don't know what's
going on.
JOHN: Yeah. I called from 8:08 to 10:02.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And then I heard the
loudspeaker. I heard that.
JOHN: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I came out, I grabbed the
phone and it was deader than a door nail, the very one
I've been using. So I --
JOHN: Well --
I
;} MR. SCHNEIDER: - I don't understand what --
l JOHN: -- what phone are you on now?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it's one that you guys
gave us and I, I think it's the first line --
JOHN: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that you put through.
JOHN: Well, whatever phone you're on it's
clear and when you pick it up --
M. SCHNEIDER: Okay, good.
JOHN: All you did is pick it up?
O O
14
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, this time I, I dialed.
This time I dialed.
JOHN: What did you dial?
MR. SCHNEIDER: 799-0545.
JOHN: Okay, okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So it works, so
JOHN: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. So, a half hour.
JOHN: Well, that's all you have to do call
us then.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: That number works.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Give me a buzz in a half an
hour.
JOHN: Listen, there are so damn many phones
in there I don't know which one's working and which one
I
isn.
I MR. SCHNEIDER: I tell you, I know it. 1, I
- it's true.
JOHN: Well, are you, are you fairly close to
David?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Very close, very close.
JOHN: Okay. How's he feeling?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you know, I mean I was
quite surprised because when I was here talking to
you --
C I
15
JOHN: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and then this guy here,
I'm trying to figure out what on earth to do with him,
he heard all the commotion. He comes limping down
through the hallway. 4
JOHN: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I looked up and there he was.
I mean, the guy can't walk worth anything. I'm
concerned that he'll probably start bleeding again. So
he, he kind of leaned over and looked at the guy, asked
him a few questions and finally --
JOHN: Well, did you guys bring the, bring
the guy up to where David's staying?
NR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no, we left him right
in the -- you know where the front door is?
1- JOHN: Yeah. I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just -- I'm talking just feet
from there. Just put a chair down and told him to stay
there.
JOHN: I wouldn't let him wander around in
there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, no, positively not.
JOHN: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Positively not.
JOHN: Listen. I will call you back. I got
10:44. I'll call you back 11:15.
O O
16
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: Let me talk to David too when I call
back.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Sounds good.
JOHN: Because I want to get this bird out of
there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll talk to you then.
JOHN: Okay? Find out who he is too.
< MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. We're working on
it.
JOHN: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
Phones hung up!
iiiii
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
~ MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, John?
é JOHN: Hey, Steve.1
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm going to take you over to
David here. Just hang on.
JOHN: GOod.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Try to get this cord out.
Boy, I'm watching it because I don't want anything
to -- see, okay. Okay. Here we go.
JOHN: Just don't break the line.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I'm looking. Here it is.
MR. KORESH: Well, if he's one of yours, I'll
17
tell you what, he's, he's the best one we've ever seen
so far.
JOHN: Hey, you've, you've seen some good
ones. l
MR. KORESH: Laughter!
JOHN: You've seen -- who is he?
MR. KORESH: Well, he hasn't given his name
yet, but he's --
JOHN: with the powers of persuasion that you
have you don't have, have his name, address and phone
number?
MR. KORESH: I wouldn't be able to write him
as it is anyway, so I really haven't -- and I can't
call him. ,
JOHN: Well, well, what are you doing with
him right now?
I
J; MR. KORESH: Oh, he's sitting right here next
to me having a bite to eat and he's indiscernible!
JOHN: Well, let, let ask you something. Let
me ask you something.
MR. KORESH: Go ahead.
JOHN: I want you to send him out and I want
you to tell me that you're sending him out right now.
MR. KORESH: I'm not going to send him out
right now.
JOHN: Why?
Ii
?
g.
C
Z$1-.
I?
§1
2
__.._;§ $1. 6.. 1,.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25-L»
7 1
8
9Q Q ."92
MR . KORESH :K.
Why should I?
JOHN: Why not?18
QR, §ORESH: Well, why don't you, why don't
you talk to him?
JOHN- He refused --
JOHN: - he
HR. KQRESH:
JOHN: H8 --
MR. KDRESH:
JOHN: No .
HR. KORESH:
1 ~ 2 .1» - -
then can I?
JOHN: Why?refused to talk to me.
He wants to know the seals.
I don't buy that one bit.
You don't?
Well, I just can't talk with
. ,5.
I'm just trying to get a
comitment from you. We want him out of there. We
don't want this bird wandering around.§m,_,? ,. .. .. . ,. .
5 .
" t~-4: ~- .-';::'... 5-21.. » i " = x - ' is-Y-= -~ 1, - = ~ ' ~ ~ - - - ';.=_ ,=~---_ _ _-=~--> ,..' :1 .-. = -_ _... . ~ - . -. - ' ~ >
you
MR. KORESH: Why do you use this bird? Now,
why do you call him a bird?
JOHN: We don't want this gentleman --
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! he might want
be one of the dirty birds of Isaiah 34, you need to
learn_g§§tf%§%%gh#§gggalhgyabout the dirty birds.
YOUJOHN: well, explain to him Psalm 75.CO
MR. KORESH: Well, no, I've explained that to
JOHN: We, we don't want him --
x
?
92_O O
19
MR. KORESH: You're, you're the one that
needs --
JOHN: We don't want him aggravating the
situation. Listen to me. I don't want him walking
outside that door wandering around. You got weapons in
there, you got a little different potential problems.
We don't need it, you don't need it. I want a
commitment from you that you are going to send him out
to us.
MR. KORESH: Look, we hold full
responsibility of this guy.
JOHN: Well, then I guess I'll talk to you
later.
MR. KORESH: Wait a minute.
JOHN: Okay?
~ MR. KORESH: Hey, listen --
ri JOHN: I'll, I'll talk to you later.
1
V Phone hung up!
it-iii
JOHN: Hello?
LEWIS: Hello. How you doing today, sir?
JOHN: Who's this?
LEWIS: You doing all right? This is the
gentleman of which you've been wanting to speak to but
you never actually allowed me to speak.
JOHN: Well, who are you?
d
92
O
LEWIS
JOHN:
LEWIS
JOHN:
LEWIS
JOHN:
LEWIS
JOHN:
LEWIS
Anthony Alaniz.
JOHN:
LEWIS20
Laughter!
You know my name. Who are you?
No, I do not know your name, sir.
My name is John Cox. Who are you?
My name is Lewis, sir.
Lewis who?
Lewis.
You don't have a last name?
Yes, sir, I do. My name is Lewis
Lewis Anthony Alaniz?
Yes, sir, would you like for me to
smell - spell that for you?
JOHN: Sure.
LEWIS: A-L-AN-I-Z is the last name.
JOHN:
IAnd where are you from?
J; LEWIS: I'm from Louisiana, sir.
JOHN: Oh, really? What part of Louisiana?
LEWIS: I'm from the Lake Charles area, and
you can have all the information. Would you like to
have my parents address and my mother's address here
in the Houston area?
JOHN: Sure.
LEWIS: Sure. My daddy's address is in
Louisiana, actually it's a P.O. Box --
JOHN: Okay.
92..
1
92
LEWIS: -- but it's P.O. Box 61, West Lake,21
Louisiana 70669. My address in Houston, I'd appreciate
it if you'd tell my mama that I am absolutely okay,
that these people here --
JOHN: What's your mother's name?
LEWIS: -- are actually doing a good thing
for me, you know? Because they're actually showing me
something in which I've been trying to study out of the
Bible but yet no church would actually show me.
JOHN: What's your mother's name, Lewis?
LEWIS: Well, her name is Anita Young.
JOHN: Okay.
LEWIS: Yeah. You can probably catch her at
home right now if you tried.
JOHN: Hang on just a second.
. LEWIS: Would you like for me to give her
yourgtelephone number?
' JOHN: Sure. Would I like you to give me --
LEWIS: Her telephone number.
JOHN: That's right.
LEWIS: Good. Would you like that?
JOHN: Sure.
LEWIS: Okay. Tell her it's S90-2173, and I
hope you do not --
JOHN: 2173?
LEWIS: Yeah indiscernible!.
1
9222
JOHN: And what's the Area Code?
LEWIS; 713. I said it was Houston.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
LEWIS: Do me a favor, do not lie to her.
JOHN: What would you like me to lie to her
about?
LEWIS: No, I would not like you to lie at
all. I would like for you to tell her that --
JOHN: Why would you presume that I would do
that?
LEWIS; Well, I'm listening to your aerial
broadcasts out here.
JOHN: You are?
LEWIS: Yes, and it's kind of interesting.
JOHN: That's not the FBI.
' LEWIS: Well, I don't know who it is, but yet
I know it's not accurate.
JOHN: Well then don't, don't make
accusations if you don't know who it is.
LEWIS: Okay. Well, I can understand that
indiscernible! sir. -
JOHN: That's coming off of a radio
station --
LEWIS: lndiscernible!
JOHN: -- that's a radio broadcast that's
being retransmitted and it's not the FBI.
C O
23
LEWIS: Okay.
JOHN: So don't be making false accusations.
LEWIS: All right. I will respect that and
say that I was wrong about that.
JOHN: Because if we call your mother we're
certainly not going to make false accusations.
LEWIS: Very good. Tell her that I'm all
right.
JOHN: Is David there?
LEWIS: Yes, he's here.
JOHN: I'd like to talk to him.
LEWIS: Yes. One moment, please.
Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Crazy bastard
spoken in background!.
" UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: _Ch¬Ck on that
6 .
9uY*?
LEWIS: Oh, do me a favor. Hello, sir?
JOHN: Yes?
LEWIS: Can you do me a favor?
JOHN: I may be able to.
LEWIS: Okay. There's no Central Assembly of
God, and could you get ahold of my pastor and tell him
that everything is real nice and happy over here, that
I'm at -- well, the church is at Audy and Westfield
phonetic spellings! --
24
JOHN: No, we're --
LEWIS: -- Lauder phonetic spelling!.
JOHN: -- we're not a messenger for other
people. We'll contact your mother --
LEWIS: Uhhuh.
JOHN: -- and tell her that you're where you
are and that you're safe.
LEWIS: Thank you. I appreciate that. Here
you go, Dave.
Pause!
MR. KORESH: Well --
JOHN: David?
MR. KORESH: - it's unique, isn't it?
JOHN: Well, that's a strange way of, of
putting it, that it's unique. It sounds a little
I.
different than unique to me.I
4? MR. KORESH: Well, I mean I can't --
JOHN: Call it, call it what you will.
MR. KORESH: Are you still mad at me?
JOHN: I'm not real happy about what happened
the other day and, and --
MR. KORESH: I can't help what happened.
JOHN: You can't? I thought you took a, a
very lackadaisical, humorous -- you know, we've got
along well for, for 25 days and, and I thought we had a
pretty good rapport and I thought we were talking about
_
,-.
92 .25
some real serious issues. And I listened to you for 25
days and I thought I was being pretty polite doing
that. We get something going and for 38 hours now no
one has left that location.
MR. KORESH: Well --
JOHN: This guy comes -- we gave you a lot of
quiet, peaceful time and we respected --
MR. KORESH: John --
JOHN: -- your Sabbath.
MR. KORESH: -- John, what are you --
JOHN: Listen to me. We respected your --
MR. KORESH: John --
JOHN: -- Sabbath. I asked you a simple --
MR. KORESH: John --
JOHN: -- question as to when you're going to
¢.let this guy come out of there and you won't give me an
answér.
MR. KORESH: John, you respected God's
Sabbath, Rosh Kadesh phonetic!, no - yesterday
morning - .
JOHN: No, we did you a favor. You said this
was a special, special day for you.
MR. KORESH: All the Shabbats are special,
the New Moon --
JOHN: This is not Saturday, this is not
Sunday --
1
3
.-C C
26
MR. KORESH: -- no, no,no, no --
JOHN: -- this was a special day and we
respected it. On Saturdays we respected it and --
MR. KORESH: Every --
JOHN: -- and I told you we respect people's
religious beliefs didn't I?
M. KORESH: Read the Scriptures. Every
Shabbat of the Scriptures is a Shabbat, not only just
the weekly but there's the daily Sabbath, the weekly,
the monthly and the yearly.
JOHN: I don't have a problem with that. I
don't have a problem with that.
MR. KORESH: But, but all last night, all
last night we had to be harangued by all this
repetitive --
JOHN: You said it didn't bother you one bit
and~§ou sort of liked the music.
MR. KORESH: I did not say that last night.
JOHN: Yeah, you did.
MR. KORESH: That was the night for worship.
JOHN: We didn't even talk to you last night,
but you told us before that that didn't bother you. So
obviously it didn't bother you.
MR. KORESH: John, come on.
JOHN: All I'm looking for is a straight
answer from you.
L
92
p
92.
~~27
MR. KORESH= Are you treating us like Christ
would have treated us?
JOHN: No, there's been a New Moon and all I
want to know is when that -- when Lewis is coming out
of there -- y
MR. KORESH: Well --
JOHN: -- because when I get off the phone
with you --
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible!
JOHN: -- I had to go answer to somebody --
MR. KORESH: Okay. As soon as Lewis --
JOHN: -- and they're looking for one answer:
when he's coming out of there.
MR. KORESH: It's his decision and we're not
-- we just met the guy, I mean, you know?
JOHN: We want you to tell us that you are
sending him out the door.
h MR. KORESH: I'm not going to do that. He
can go when he's ready to go.
JOHN: Well then I'll have to talk to you
later, friend, because I've got to go answer to someone
and that's the issue right now. So I will talk to you
later.
M. KORESH: Let me, let me ask you --
Phone hung up!
End Tape 158!
rm46*
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #159
3/25/93
8:45 A.M- - 10220 A.M.
O O
2
Tape 159!
STEVE: Hello?
DICK: Steve.
STEVE: Whoa, is this a bad connection. Can
you try me back? Q
DICK: Yeah, I'll call you back.
STEVE: Okay.
iii
STEVE: Wow, it's still -- I wonder what's --
just a minute. I wonder what's going on here. Can you
hear that crackling?
DICK: I hear some crackling. However it --
STEVE: It's so bad I can't even hear you.
Let me see what's going on there. I don't know, I
don't geez. Who am I speaking to this morning?
h DICK: This is Dick. How are you this
mornéng?kl STEVE: Dick?
DICK: Dick. Day 26 here Steve.
STEVE: I, I can't hear. I - here, just a
minute. Let me call you back and see if it makes a
difference, or let me have someone look at this phone
or phone line. Just a minute.
iii
DICK: Hello?
STEVE: Hello
f
92
f.
92C O
3
DICK: Steve.
STEVE: Dick?
DICK: Yeah, I can't hear you well now.
STEVE: Oh, no.
DICK: I don't hear the scratching, but the
volume is terribly low. What did you do to the phone?
STEVE: Oh, I've got the other phone right
now.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: It was actually -- remember you --
they sent in one line one day and a line the next day.
They complained about the first line. And then
yesterday apparently you people weren't getting
through, and I was waiting. And when I finally
picked -- well, it's strange because once I used the
phone.,_And then time went by, and it was dead as a
doorpail. Then I picked up the other one, it was
working. It's the weirdest --
DICK: well, I can't tell you -- I'm not a
technician. All I can tell you is that I don't hear it
well now.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: But let's continue, stay on here for a
minute until we can try to resolve it from this end.
Do you -- what did you do, put a new instrument on
there?
STEVE: No, it's actually the same one.
That's what's - I don't understand what's happening.
DICK: Okay, now let's --
STEVE: I've got, I've got someone looking
right now at the line to see if it's not in the line.
Because it was clear the last time we used it.
DICK: All right. Well, what did, what did
you do to, to get the scratching from --
STEVE: Well, no, I -- what, what --
DICK: Okay, now I've got you good.
STEVE: Oh, you do?
DICK: We've got you very well now.
STEVE: Okay, good.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Well, no, what he did is he gave me
the other phone while he was looking at the other one.
So wé still - there was two lines that you sent in,
the one one day and the following one. We were trying
to go back and forth. Whatever works we, you know, we
keep -- '
DICK: I -- yeah, I understand.
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: It's, it's working well now.
STEVE: Oh, okay.
DICK: It's working very well now. Listen,
we want to get Louis out first thing this morning.
Q O
5
That, that man does not belong in there, Steve. He's
not part of this whole thing.
STEVE: Well, we were trying to -- last night
we were trying to communicate. And apparently John Cox
must have hung the phone up two or three different
times. Because you know, I even -- David says well,
call him back. And I let it ring 40, 50 times.
DICK: Okay. Well --
STEVE: And --
DICK: -- is he ready to go now then?
STEVE: Pardon?
DICK: He's ready to go now then? We'll
receive --
STEVE: He's, he's sitting there right now
talking to David. He's getting a Bible study.
~ DICK: Well --
£ STEVE: He asked him about what the seven
seals were, so he's been showing him in the Bible where
they're located and what they mean. And he's answering
any of his questions.
DICK: Steven, let's get that man out of
there, okay? I'm telling you, we need to have him out
of there this morning. He's not
got family out here now that are
him. It's, it's time for him to
STEVE: Who, who is hepart of this. He's
making inquiry about
leave.
exactly? Or where is
6
he from --
DICK: Well --
STEVE: I heard him say a little bit. But I
didn't really get the whole picture.
DICK: That's all I know is what was
communicated to us and --
STEVE: Were, were you able to contact his
relative or mother?
DICK: I, I believe his mother was contacted,
a gal by the name of Nina Young.
STEVE: Oh, I see.
DICK: And she's very concerned about him.
She said that, you know, he's absolutely no part of
this. And she wants him out of here --
SEVE: Uh-huh.
DICK: -- out of there now.
I
, STEVE: Well, I mean it's true he's no part
of it from, you know --
DICK: Well, let's -- you know, we've been
dealing with one another off and on for several,
several days. And this is not part of the thing,
Steve. I mean what you're --
STEVE: What happened, what happened with
Jennifer? She said she --
' DICK: Jennifer is gone.
STEVE: She iS?
DICK: And John --
STEVE: She had a couple of things she said
she wanted to share with me.
DICK: Well,
John Dolan went out of
to work with you. And
cooperate with him andshe's gone as is John Dolan.
his way to try to resolve this,
unfortunately, you didn't
now he's gone. I mean the guy
is going to have repair his own career --
STEVE: Listen to you, Dick. I didn't
cooperate with him. When we were doing so well, and
then all of a sudden he said he'd be on the next day.
He never showed.
~ DICK:
STEVE:
after we started out.
" DICK:
I
_} STEVE:You know why that is, Steve?
A number of times he didn't show
The reason for that --
You got to -- no, no. I'm not going
to take any of this kind of thing, Dick. I'm going to
go back again to that Friday, him and I had worked very
well 3 days. Things were generating so fantastic.
These people were watching, listening. They thought it
was great. John Cox got on that night when Dolan got
off, and the electricity was cut, and that's when all
that crap started happening. And since then too he got
on again, and things started picking up with John
COX - '
O C
8
DICK: Well, I know that. He was doing, he's
doing his best for you.
STEVE: So what are you talking -- I mean I
was working with him. Anytime he gave me something I
was able to take it to these people, talk with them,
sit down with them. They had a different attitude.
But every time like that last time with John Cox was on
the phone, and then the next day the phones were cut.
They destroyed --
DICK: I understand. Steve, I understand
your concern --
STEVE: But, but Dick, I'm telling --
DICK: -- about that. We talked about that.
STEVE: I know. But how can you ever
overcome that kind of thing when you're inside here?
h DICK: Well, we can. We can overcome it.
And we will overcome it. Because that's what I'm here
.,} "
to do with you today. Show us something. Give us --
STEVE: But I don't understand why you made a
statement like that about Dolan --
DICK: well, because I'll tell you --
STEVE: Well, here's a guy if anything -- did
I not cooperate? I mean how, what more could I do?
DICK: Listen. I'm talking about numbers,
Steve. I'm telling you what, what the front office
said about numbers. We appreciate the fact that we
Q Q
were moving forward. But unfortunately, we weren't
moving as quickly as they --
STEVE: If they would have only waited for
the next day to see them now. I mean I -- every time
it started to generate --
DICK: Let's get it going now, Steve. Let's
get it going now.
STEVE: But then we always do this. Each,
every time it's the same thing.
DICK: Steve, today's a new day.
STEVE: You're not --
DICK: It's the 26th day. Let's, let's move
this --
STEVE: Every, every day they say it's a new
day. But then right away it - you know how much time
it takes to gain -- okay, let's, okay, let's begin
I
today. Where is Livingston Pagan? He was supposed to
call in --
DICK: Okay, let me address that question.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: Okay? Yesterday, I was attempting to
reach Livingston Fagan. I went to the jail.
Livingston Pagan is now represented by a fellow by the
name of Bradley Gates. He's a court appointed
attorney. I spoke with Mr. Gates yesterday and
represented that we had to -- we would like to speak
once again with Mr. Fagan, that we10
would like to have
him available to perhaps do a tape or perhaps to
connect him in some fashion with the folks out there.
Mr. Fagan is no -- he just doesn't want to do that
right now. He is not ready to do that. The attorney
was ready, but of course, Pagan was not ready.
STEVE: Ready to do the tape but not the
call. Because he told --
DICK: Well, either. I mean --
STEVE: -- us he insisted upon making a call
back here when he got to --
DICK: I understand that
STEVE: -- that first day. But you, you guys
are up to, Dick, I don't know what
thing for sure. It was Byron that
would be calling me back that same
there. It never
4
I mean if that was going to followhappened. So all
early afternoon, and his mother --
DICK: Um-hum.But I know one
told me that he
day when he arrived
these people now --
right after him,
STEVE: -- I'd already talked to those two.
And I told Byron I was -- and he said that's not good
enough. I says good enough. Let me -- first of all
I -- there's two following. Let me go talk to more.
And that's when he, he just insisted that 50 to 100
people come walking out. I said I can scream at them.
ll
They're not going to come out because I'm telling them
to.
DICK: Steve, let me - let's get back to
Livingston for a minute. When we spoke on, or to him
on the phone that morning, that is we, I was with Byron
when he spoke to, to him, he seemed to be very
articulate, seemed to be doing very well and seemed to
want to come out and to make the appropriate call back
when he got out. His attitude became very belligerent.
He was not at all happy with getting mud on his shoes.
Now in this instance let's face it. We've got bigger
problems to solve here --
STEVE: But that's --
DICK: -- than mud on our shoes.
STEVE: Dick, but that's the only thing I've
heard. ,I mean that's the only issue?
,- .Q; DICK: No. That was what started the issue
apparently, and it went downhill from there with him.
He --
STEVE: I ask that you get someone that
actually sat down and was dialoging sic! with him
would have at least given me some notes exactly how it
transpired.
DICK: Steven, listen. Steve, you have to
rely on us to do some of these things. Okay, we're not
here to serve as a waitress or a waiter. We're notI
12
here to do those kinds of things.
STEVE: I'm not - no, but I'm trying to talk
about making a connection to the guy so I can go back
to his -- Dick, you're missing the point.
DICK: No, I'm not missing the point, Steve.
STEVE: I'm not asking you to serve. I'm
asking you to do what you said you would do. when I
talked to Byron, he said he would call back. What's
his name, Livingston told me he insisted on making a
phone call back here.
DICK: I understand what you're saying.
However *-
STEVE: So when it never happened that's
why do you think these people are being like they are
now? They don't - they're trusting you people less
and less every day.
I
Q DICK: Steve, again, let me explain this to
you, okay? Yesterday, I called down to the jail
through Larry Lynch who is the fellow down there that
is directing some of these activities and trying to --
we're trying to coordinate with him to get these calls
made. And I have been down there as you well know with
several of those peoples and made those calls myself
with them. Okay?
In this instance yesterday, I went down to
the jail in an attempt to locate Livingston. I was
YD
13
told that he had a court appearance yesterday. I knew
that if he had a court appearance there would be an
attorney appointed for him.
All right, I then determined that the
attorney is a fellow by the name of Bradley Gates. I
called Mr. Gates and left a message with him. Mr.
Gates got back to him - back to me, and I suggested
that I would like the opportunity to talk to, to
Livingston. He told me that he had been appointed by
the court but at that point had not had a chance to
speak with him.
I then requested that after he spoke with
Livingston I asked him to give me a call. I - he did
that. I spoke with him. He
no interest at least at thatindicated Livingston had
time in talking with us.
I explained to him that it was important to get this
resoived, because it might have some impact on the
folks inside. He assured me
information on to Livingston
not, not ready to speak with
more we can do. Okay, we're
STEVE: You say tothat he had passed that
but that Livingston was
us. And I don't know what
bound by law to --
speak with you. But the
thing is he never -- he was to have the opportunity to
speak back with us.
DICK: Oh, I understand. But that has to be
facilitated through us because we're the only people --
0 5
14
STEVE: Well, I hope you've made that
extremely clear to him.
DICK: I couldn't have made it anymore clear.
I couldn't have made it anymore clear. And nor could
the fellows that spent the --
. STEVE: Something is so funny, Dick. What is
going on? What is going on? Because if you saw him
when he left, like you said he was articulate on the
phone.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: Well, that's the way he is. He's a,
has a very deep mind. He's, he is a communicator. Has
no problem. And when he left he insisted that, that he
would be able to call back so that way his wife and
mother would be assured that - when that didn't
happen, it looked really bad, really bad. So --
I
3 DICK: Okay, let me, let me offer a
suggestion.
STEVE: All right. Please do.
DICK: A thought that I have had. Hold on if
you will for just one moment, please.
STEVE: Yeah, sure.
[989]
DICK: I got a question. Are you folks all
ready to come out this morning before the press
conference?
O O
15
STEVE: Are we? You mean the, all the people
in this building?
DICK: Yes. You and, and the rest of the
others in there.
STEVE: No one is.
DICK: Mr. Ricks had that question passed on
to us. Because he, he's going to be making a
conference connection this morning. He just wanted to
be updated on the information. You're not prepared to
come out, are you, this morning?
STEVE: No. Because see it all came back
to -- everything was actually moving along as to what
happened with Livingston Pagan.
DICK: Okay. Let me get back to Livingston.
STEVE: That was the biggest news of course
problem,
wg DICK: Okay, let me get back to Livingston.
i STEVE: All right.
DICK: Now right now his attorney controls
the contacts. We're bound by law to make contact
through his attorney. So we are attempting to do that.
We have attempted, and obviously he put us off. Now --
STEVE: Well, can you say can you - if you
want, use my name and say Steve Schneider before he
left had a connection with him. He said he was going
to call back. Say they're waiting still. Steve is
waiting to talk to him. All I
you know, what is,
your, your wife and so forth?
everythingfs okay or what's --
like you are?O
16
need to know is what,
what's up? Do you want to talk to
Do you want to - if
why are you acting like,
DICK: Well, we, we have no idea. But let's
move beyond that.
one thought that IMy guess at least let me offer
had.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: I'm hoping, Steve, that he wasn't sent
out with an agenda, and
appear that he had been
thereby --
STEVE: Dick.
so. No. In fact,
him when he walked
i
back; And he said
any comments? Andthat agenda was to make it
mistreated by officials
Dick, before the living God not
the only thing -- I was right with
over to David, when David was on his
do you have any Scriptures for me,
David told him to read a couple
things. And that was it. He was only in there I'm
talking about a couple minutes.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: And then he came, he came to the
location then I, over by the phone. And he stood
waiting by the phone. Because I was still in
communication with Byron. So then I asked Byron a
number of things about his children and all that.
17
DICK: Umhum.
STEVE: Fagan was right here. Nothing,
nobody ever - no one said anything to --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: So that's why more than anybody else
I was shocked when I heard when Byron called back and
told me what had happened. Because I've never seen
Fagan like that ever. Not even close.
DICK: Well, I can only tell you that that's
the way it happened. And you can believe me, or you
can choose to disbelieve me. That's your option. But
I am telling you that that's the way it happened.
And --
STEVE: But Dick, we don't honestly -- we
don't do things like that telling people to go - I
mean I'p telling --
j DICK: Okay. I'll believe you because you
tell?me that.
STEVE: -- our, our concern -- I would never
want to do anything to jeopardize your ability to hear
what we're about, whether you believe or not, whether
you want to or not that's fine. But, but we're out -
DICK: Steve, I believe you --
STEVE: -- we're out for eternal souls and
people making it and not, not the opposite. Not to
deceive and lie.
/C O
18
DICK: Okay. Okay, I, I believe you. And
you believe me, please. Because we did make several
efforts to get that done. But you've got to understand
now that he has attorney representing him. Many
instances --
STEVE: I do understand.
DICK: - those attorneys do not want any
further contact with law enforcement authorities.
And --
STEVE: Not even if it's for you people to
patch us through or to talk to him for his, to see how
he is or to get his family moving?
DICK: You know, I'm just telling you --
STEVE: You know, Dick, you know what?
There's so many people that were watching that whole
thing that were already showing signs that they would
comegout. That - I don't know even what to do
anymore. I'm so frustrated now --
DICK: Steve, Steve, I've heard that so many
times. we've got to get beyond that. Okay?
STEVE: But it's - but, come on, it's true
though. What if you were here on the inside with
me, and you saw these people, you talked to them.
That's why I don't mind if you go ahead and talk to any
on the phone. Ask them any kind of question.
DICK: I understand what you're saying.
19
STEVE: They're telling me like they -- you
know what? They've asked me from the moment he left --
it's driving me nuts. How's Livingston? Have you
heard from Livingston? I mean all morning, noon and
night., I'd say look, would you just lay off. I'll let
you know if he calls. You know they're, they're just
getting to me.
V DICK: Well, what, what would you suggest
that we could tell you to make you feel at ease about
Livingston? We don't even -- we're not even in touch
with Livingston any longer. He is in the federal court
process. He's down --
STEVE: But see --
DICK: -- at the local jail down here. He's
being treated very properly, very professionally. He's
got the,attorney that he has been provided free of
charge to him by the court to represent his, his
rights. The attorney then has the power or to at least
advise Mr., Mr. Livingston -- or, or to advise
Livingston. And then Livingston has to make his own
choice.
And his choice -- I talked to him personally,
to the attorney. And his choice is that at this point
in time, and that's the way they phrased it, at this
point in time, they do not care to speak with you
folks.
C O
20
Again, I suggested that it was our
understanding it was necessary or desirable for him to
make a call inside, and if we could not do that, we
would be very willing to tape it. He is not prepared
at this time to do either.
STEVE: I remember what --
DICK: And let's go on from there.
STEVE: Well, I do remember what Byron did
say the day he went out about that he did not want to
make a tape. Although that was never part of the
agreement made with Byron indiscernible!.
DICK: Yeah, well, Steve, we have no we
had no other ability to get that call in there. That's
why we were forward. That's why we were talking to you
from a forward position.
'- STEVE: Well, then why did Byron tell me that
thatgwould be possible? He did. When he - when, when
Livingston went out he told me that very thing that
that he never said that there was a problem with a
line or that he could not do that.
DICK: Byron didn't know that. What we're
trying to do, Steve, is work with you. In each
instance, I was over there for instance when, when
Sheila Martin spoke with you and with her husband. I
was there. I set that telephone call up. And I also
dealt with Kathy and two, the other two, Brad and
21
Kevin.
I was there on each occasion. We put them
through. We did not orchestrate what was said. They
said what they wanted to say. We had absolutely no
part in that. So why in this instance would we want to
work it any differently?
You know we've, we've shown you I think that
you can trust us in terms of dealing with these folks.
Each and every instance they have said that they have
been treated properly. They've been treated
professionally. And they're being well cared for. I
mean are we going to go on for each person that has to
do this? We're not in a position to do that.
$TEVE: No. In fact, we've never requested
that, have we?
I. DICK: No. But I'm suggesting that we're
not ;-
' STEVE: I mean by far a large majority have
not called in. We haven't requested it. The only one
though was just to get this ball rolling again was
Livingston.
In fact, the truth of the matter is he was
showing signs that he wanted to go out, because
Livingston got to hear I think it was Kevin or
something speak as he did about different things about
the Bible. And he was so far off. Didn't, didn't
22
express himself or didn't give it as it really is.
So Livingston says I want to go out. And he
says I, I don't want to be in here anymore. I want to
go out. And I said, great, fine. You know, and then I
says well, what about -- being that I was talking to~
Byron, I says what about your mother and Yvette? And
he talked to them. They said they wanted to wait and
see what happened first. That's how that whole thing
took place.
I was kind of glad that he was going out
there so that if any questions were asked of him he
could express very clearly what's going on or, or how
best we can get this thing moving even faster.
DICK: Steve, we can't force him to talk to
us or to you.
h STEVE: No, I know. But that's why but
Dick¢fthat's why I was so shocked when I was told about
whatiaad -- it --
DICK: Well, I was shocked too, frankly.
Because we, we believed that, that we would be able to
patch him through to you in that fashion. That's why
we were going to make a tape when we found out we
couldn't patch him through directly to you. And he had
no interest in doing that. We can't force the man to
do that. -
STEVE: I don't know what to do right now.
. /
Because now his wife, you know, I, I went to
her. And she, she just says I don't want to
unless, unless you tell me that you've heard
or how he is. And I said well, I says well,
even talked to them about him in the last day23
talk to
talk
from him
I haven't
And Jennifer yesterday called. She had some
information. She said she had been talking to my
sister almost daily, got to know her. And I told her
well, I wanted to talk to her about it but that it was
the Sabbath, it was a new moon. So I said after the
sun goes down call me back. I asked her if she'd be
around the next day which is today. She said she would
be.
DICK: Well, I have an inquiry here on Judy's
behalf from her mother, Shirley.
'- STEVE: All right.
I
U3 DICK: Has that been communicated to you?
STEVE: I - I'm not sure.
DICK: Putkammer phonetic sp.!? Is that how
you pronounce that?
STEVE: Putkammer.
DICK: Putkammer. All right. I do have
that, and I'll be able to pass that on to her. But
first, let's get this Louis issue resolved, okay?
STEVE: Well, tell me real quickly about what
did Jennifer have. She said she wanted to talk
O O
24
about - so you say she's gone for good?
DICK: Jennifer is gone, yes.
STEVE: But not for good?
DICK: Well, she's gone temporarily --
STEVE: Well, you know, she's --
DICK: -- at least, you know --
STEVE: Well, she said - yeah, I mean why
would this new voice come on for a matter of minutes
and make a few statements? Now she's gone. Is she
coming back? Does she want --
DICK: Well, see, she was only here
yesterday. And, but you guys didn't want to speak to
her throughout the day. And we understand why, and
we're not quarrelling with that. But she was here for
a limited time. And we -- if she had, she had heard
several conversations she thought maybe, maybe she
would like to be able to talk with you and see if she
E
might have some success in dealing with you.
STEVE: I told her she -- it was a breath of
fresh air talking with her. So I said I would be more
than pleased to pick up the conversation after the
Sabbath hour.
DICK: Well, unfortunately she was here for a
limited time. She's got other duties that she had to
go ahead and, and get those resolved.
STEVE: So tell me, is she coming back?
25
DICK: No. Not to my knowledge, no. Now
listen if you will, please. I'll go through this
Putkammer thing. But let's get, let's get some of this
other things resolved.
Now some of the things we're doing here in
addition to trying to speak with you folks is to try to
coordinate some of these efforts to reach out for
people and trying to coordinate some of these contacts
with families. And some of those you have. Others
will be coming in. But we've got to resolve this issue
first. That is Mr. Alanies phonetic sp.!. I guess
you guys were kind of surprised when he came walking up
to the front door, weren't you?
SIEVE: Well, of course. And in fact, you
know, the funniest part about that whole thing was I
heard a~lot of commotion. And someone said they
thought it was one of you people coming to the door.
And everybody I mean was getting quite excited. So by
the time I got down here, here's some guy out there.
And I'm not sure who he is from Adam. And John Cox
calls at that time, starts reprimanding me because
somebody had jumped out a window, run around the
building. And he says you guys shouldn't be doing that
kind of stuff. I said John, what are you talking
about? Then --
DICK: Well --
C Q
' 26
STEVE: -- he started talking about, you
know, like faces in the windows and all that. And I'm
saying John, slow down. Calm down. And, and then he
started accusing and so forth. And, and that's when I
was, that's when I was --
DICK: Well, that caught him by surprise
obviously. And we, we just --
STEVE: You guys. I mean I've never in my
life. I mean who is excited around here? And I told
John. Now this is true. Your men have opened up
themselves a number of times around this property where
if a person wanted to they could have assaulted them.
But listen, Dick. Never from even that first day did
we ever chose to hurt anybody.
DICK: And --
_ STEVE: Never anybody.
f DICK: Have you seen us trying to hurt
J
anybody out there?
STEVE: Well, yeah. Your aggressive actions.
Your destruction of property. Your, your constantly,
your intimidation, your threats.
DICK: Steve, let's --
STEVE: Your threats about --
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: -- being in windows and people
wearing balaclavas, whatever that --
O C
27
DICK: Steve. Let's --
STEVE: And wait, wait, wait. Dick, Dick.
But no, but --
DICK: -- can you and I agree that that's
past history?
STEVE: More, more - no, but it's things you
still do, and John raised it yesterday again. That's
the point, Dick. You don't hear us calling and all the
time, even though you're destroying our property and
saying we can come back. What are we going to come
back to? I mean it's just - actually it comes down to
be a total joke.
DICK: Well, let, let me discuss Louis
Anthony Alanies. What did he tell you about why he
came?
. STEVE: Well, it was a kind of a strange
thiné. Because I was peeking out talking to him. I
says well, who are you? Where are you from? And what
are you doing here? And he says God told him to come
here. I says from where?
DICK: Well, you tell him that God told him
to get up and leave at the same time. Okay, he's
there. He's spent some time with you. And you tell
him that God has ensured you - has assured you that he
needs to leave. And let's get him out of there, okay?
Now you folks being in there is one thing.
O O
28
But now you've got somebody else in there that doesn't
belong in there. And --
STEVE: Well, what do you mean they don't --
in fact, this is -- this place, Mt. Carmel as you call
it, we just call it home. This place has been open to
the world since day one for anybody to come and hear
what the seven seals are about.
DICK: Well --
STEVE: That's what it's been for right from
before we were -- all the atrocities were committed
against us.
DICK: Well, to my understanding --
STEVE: Now you want to tell, you want to
tell me in the free land of America what he can and
can't do --
DICK: No, but I'm telling you --
; STEVE: -- and what I can do and, and
religious freedom. You got to remember this country
was founded number one because people tried to get away
from Europe where all the, the persecution was.
DICK: I understand what you're saying.
STEVE: And now here it's, right here it's
risen up in this country like Abraham Lincoln and all
the awesome founders --
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: -- had spoken and warned about.
I 29
DICK: Steve, my understanding is that this,
this fellow may have some problems mentally. Okay?
His mom is terribly concerned about him.
STEVE: Well, what did she say about him when
it comes to mental problems?
DICK: Well, I didn't speak directly, I
didn't speak directly with her.
STEVE: He doesn't seem to have. He's
very - in fact the truth, yesterday, you know, as you
are probably --
DICK: Well, Steve, let me ask you a
question. If you --
STEVE: Sure.
DICK: -- walked into this situation,
wouldn't you have some concern about somebody's mental
capability?
g STEVE: Well, of course. I, I did right off
when I was looking at him. But at the same time being
that I've studied comparative religion and have dealt
with thousands of people from all walks of life daily,
when I saw him and he, and when we finally allowed him
to come in, just sit down, get some water, get a little
cleaned up, we started he started calming down.
You could tell he was a Pentecostal type.
And you know yourself if you know anything about
religion, they're extremely emotional. They're into
30
feelings. They're into thinking that the Holy Spirit
directs everybody and, and works supernaturally with
people.
See, I'm not into all that sort of thing. I
mean as weird of a thing as you'll find me
acknowledging is that David claims that he hears
audible voices, right? I've never bought that in my
life I've told you before. And the only reason
listened to David is because of his performance
sciences and so forth from that book called the
And if he wasn't consistent, I would be back in
right now.
But now when this young man that cameI've
showing
Bible.
Hawaii
into
the door sat down, when he finally calmed down he was
as normal as anybody. Other than of course he's got a
little influence from these Pentecostal religions. But
othe¬'than that, he's, he's been calm ever since
1
He -4 in fact he's talked a little bit about his past
or from some Assembly of God church in northern
from what we understand now.Houston
DICK: Well, let's send him out and get this,
this issue resolved.
STEVE: Well, he is going to.
DICK: We can work on that very quickly.
STEVE: He is going to. He asked David if he
could ask a few more questions. So David - even
31
though he's not feeling well. You know, I mean David,
he'll give you all his time, all his time if you want
to know about the Book. I mean he'll do it for you.
He'll do it for anybody in this whole world that's
breathing.
DICK: Well, one of the conditions the other
day that we suggested to you that you were concerned
about was that David will be allowed to continue to
preach. We sent that in. We told you that there was
no question about that.
STEVE: David doesn't believe it though. I
mean I accept -- don't you remember how I talked with
Byron about it? I was trying --
DICK: Umhum.
sTEVE: -- to work it out with him. I went
to David who didn't know anything about what I was
doing. And I thought there would have been a better
J
response. But apparently because of what happened with
the telephone lines, the destruction of automobiles,
because he thought he had such a good relation going
with John
sudden he
believing
help withCox, and then all that happened, all of a
started showing signs that he was not
anything that was going on then.
He never did show that he ever wanted your
the news media except for that one time he
did the 58 minute tape. But since that time, he's
32
never asked nor has he relied upon the FBI or the news
media itself getting out some kind of a message for
him. He believes that God's already got a way that was
already foreordained before the foundation of the earth
how it would finally come about. He showed it to me
years ago. So I - even myself, I've never been
concerned about that aspect.
DICK: Well --
STEVE: I just hope you know that, and you
can pass it on to Bob Ricks or whoever else thinks that
he's a glory hound and all. He -- if - look at. Now
honestly, Dick. Can I -- let me just say this.
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: He is one of the most awesome
guitarists in the world. He's in the caliber of Steve
I., Joe~Satriani phonetic sp.!. If you ever got to
hearghim play and his ability, he would have made it.
He's -- we've got connections in Hollywood. We, we
know people all over. They've always wanted him to
play. He does not have to pay to play like everybody
else does because of his talent. his ability to create
and write is phenomenal.
DICK: well, I don't, I don't disagree with
that. I'm sure there's a lot of talent in there.
STEVE: Well, no, but see what - but no,
Dick. But what I'm saying is this. If he wanted to
O 5
33
make it or make a name for himself and take his message
out, that was the way it is and still will be.
Seriously.
DICK: Fine.
STEVE: So, so we've never had an interest
about relying on this what's his name, Craig Smith? I
think that guy is a devotee of or a disciple of
yourselves, of the FBI personally. There's something
wrong with this guy. I don't know, I don't know really
what the problem if he's --
DICK: Well, you know, that's, that's not
what you told us way back on the --
STEVE: -- I've never known this Craig Smith.
I've never talked about him. All I know is the Bible
says that --
. DICK: So now the FBI is --
i; STEVE: Wait now. wait now.
4
DICK: -- the FBI is controlling the
Christian Broadcasting System now? Is that what you're
suggesting?
STEVE: Hold it. Don't put words into my
mouth, Dick. In chapter 7 of Matthew it says judge not
that ye be not judged. And all I heard - you guys are
playing this tape from him over and over again. That's
all the man does is judge us. He has never even talked
to David or myself. All he can do is get the
.
34
information that you've disseminated to him. Your
hero.
DICK: No, well, now let's, let's -- let me
back up a bit, okay?
STEVE: I mean with this guy, all that
garbage that's coming out of his mouth. The audacity
of a man to ever --
DICK: Okay. He has a wide following.
STEVE: -- another without walking in his
shoes or, or talking to him
DICK: Steve, he has a wide following across
the country. He is the very same --
- STEVE: I, I bet he does have a following.
He's a guru I would imagine
DICK: Listen. Listen, please. He is the
same person that allowed that tape to be played over,
acro§s the country early on
put that tape together. It
do with the FBI.
STEVE: You and I
And myself, I see that when
this, an event, Dick, he --in this thing. Now David
had absolutely nothing to
always - I'm into motives.
an incident happens like
anybody that has any sense
at all would see that will bring him ratings, that it
will -- if anything at all the attention will gain a
wider acception sic! or --
DICK: Do you think perhaps --
35
STEVE: - or awareness of his almost obscure
program. I'd never heard of
or his, or his program.the man before in my life
DICK: Well, how is it obscure if he can, if
he has access to all the Christian Broadcasting --
STEVE: I don't buy that he does. I, I don't
buy it. You, you people have told me that. And we've
had, we've had information come back to us that that
message went basically nowhere except for the US Texas
Today or that station up in Dallas.
DICK: You know what, Steve? I just -- you
know, it's difficult to deal
that every time something is
a negative. That's just not
STEVE: Well, when
like the electricity, TV andwith someone like yourself
positive you turn it into
right.
you cut us off from all --
all, every other kind of
communication, what are we to deduce from that, Dick?
4
when you're so powerful as an agency you take
preeminence over every other aspect of American life
including the press that they can't come near, they
can't report. You buy them pizza in the first few
days. You move them, you move them --
DICK: We buy them pizza.
STEVE: That's correct. And you moved them
back a mile and a half, a couple miles further back
using the excuse for their protection. It becomes a
36
party. These people to me are bought and paid for,
have been long ago. Have been long ago.
DICK: Steve, this is when the basic issues
that we talked about ad nauseam here. You can talk
with the press.
STEVE: I really don't want to. Because in
the first place, all they're into is sensational,
sensationalism in the first place.
DICK: Now, now you know what? One day
you want something. The next day you want something
different.
STEVE: Give me an example. What do you mean
I what have you ever heard me say that I wanted,
Dick?
DICK: It was my understanding, it was my --
h STEVE: What have you ever heard me say I've
wantgd?VD DICK: Steve. Steve. Okay, let's talk to
one another here, not yell at one another.
STEVE: No, I'm not. I'm not yell-
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- oh, excuse me. I'll apologize if
I was loud.
DICK: One of the conditions, one of the
conditions that you folks wanted was access to press.
was that not important to you, and is that not
/w
important to you?
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:37
It still is. Because --
Okay.
-- whatever happens, of course, we
want filming and that so nothing happens, nothing takes
place, there's safety all the way through. We've
always asked for
of Weaver. It'sa negotiator. It happened in the case
happened in all, many, many cases long
before this. But we're not really getting anywhere.
So we want a --
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
that issue?
STEVE:
on it.
3 DICK:4
' STEVE:
DICK:
here. The press
would love to beOkay. Did you -- do you remember --
-- neutral party.
Do you remember what we told you about
Yeah. Let's, let's continue to work
No. Do you remember what we told you?
I -- why don't you repeat?
Okay. We told you that the press is
is ready. In fact, the press would,
able to film you folks immediately if
not sooner. As soon as you leave that compound that
will be done.
STEVE:
enough.
DICK:Not good enough. Dick, not good
Okay. That's not good enough. I'm
Q O
38
telling you what the situation is, okay?
STEVE: And I'm telling you that you're going
to face God very shortly and so am I. Both of us are.
But the thing is you don't believe it and I do. That's
the difference.
DICK: Well, let's go on to one of the other
issues here that we can develop a little bit, okay?
The property. The property we understand it means a
great deal to you folks. And, and nobody, nobody
would, would question that. We have told you
repeatedly that you will have the ability to return to
the property as soon as --
STEVE: Do you know how many people believe
that, Dick, here? Do you -- just ask me. Not even one
person in this building believes that in the least.
DICK: Steve, how, how do we convince you,.
that this is true? We've told you. I've --
1
STEVE: Because number one, all these --
DICK: - told you. John's told you.
Byron's told you.
STEVE: All these people that are still
incarcerated like Kathy Schroeder.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Why is she not on the outside? The
woman never did anything. These people have not -- how 4
come I tell you, it gets back to the same issues
39
that you and I go round and round about.
You've got this maniac organization, the ATF,
on the loose. They're terrorists. They should be
dealt with as such. They should be investigated.
They're the ones that
bedroom up full, from
about. And you allow
America. They can became here riddling David Koresh's
helicopters which they have lied
that to be disseminated across
on the, on the outside doing
that. But you want to incarcerate me and everybody in
here, and you're trying to tell me that we're going to
have freedom to speak
I've seen in the past what have happened to
people that have been termed as criminals. Everybody
is guilty until proven innocent. That's what you've
shown over and over again.
. STEVE
,
on. erica at largeh DICK: Steve, that's not true.
i : Give me examples -- but it is. Come
Am is --
DICK: Steve. Steve, listen. Let's --
STEVE: -- is saying that.
DICK: -- let's restrict ourself to this
issue here. We need to, we need to address this issue
here, okay? We are telling you that you will have the
ability to return to that property. That property will
not be taken. It cannot be taken by law.
All right. Let's move on to the next issue
C O
40
which --
STEVE: Wait, wait, wait. You sent --
remember how Byron sent me a statement? And if you saw
how ambiguous the statement is, you could tell by what
the statement was. It was - it said in regards to
firearms. But do you know how many other ways there
are to take property through the government, the
ways -- holy - I mean remember now, I've got some
understanding of some of the laws and how it works.
Wayne Martin is also here. So we can come up with so
many ways what the government could do to take this
property.
And I mean there's no question about it. I
know what they've done in the past to friends of mine
or acquaintances that someone used their car and maybe
stuck drugs in it or something. They lost their car
for good. Never got it back.
é DICK: Steve, we're not talking about drugs
here. I will tell you --
STEVE: No, I know that. But I'm giving you
an example of what the government, the things they do.
You and I are aware of that.
DICK: Steve, I know that. I know that the
government can take property if it has something to do
with drugs. That's under the forfeiture clause, okay?
But we're not dealing with drugs here.
~O O
41
STEVE: I'm using drugs as an example. There
are --
DICK: Okay. -
STEVE: -- hundreds of things that can be
used --
DICK: But, but no, we have to, we -- listen.
STEVE: -- by the government for reasons to
confiscate --
DICK: We have to address, we have to address
this issue. Your property, not somebody else's
property. This property. That property.
STEVE: What's left of it you mean? What
are, what are you going to destroy next?
DICK: Why would we want to destroy that
property?
~ STEVE: You tell -- I've been waiting to find
thatjéut myself.
" DICK: You know, you're, you're absolutely in
control of whatever happens to that property out there,
Steve.
STEVE: Laughing.! I'm -- hey, I'm
absolutely in control of what happens to this property
out here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Who said that?
STEVE: This is Dick on the phone telling me
that.
O O
42
DICK: Well, that's exactly the truth. How
would you question that?
STEVE: You said we are. I am.
DICK: Well, I'm talking about you folks out
there are in.control of that property. It belongs to
you. What happens to that property is your
responsibility. What we want to do and what we will do
when, when the time is right is we will process the
crime scene there. You know that. We know that.
STEVE: That wouldn't be so bad. The
biggest - "
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- issue that I've raised with you,
Dick, is not that you would be here even or that the
Texas Rangers. But I'm adamant about this part that
the ATFhis playing. The ones that came to this place,
and what I've heard on the press conference the
4
outright lies by Conroy. I mean awesome, totally
awesome. And to think that that agency would be
involved in any aspect of this from here on out blows
my mind that that would even be allowed in America.
Whatever happened to justice?
You want me to come out into that system.
And I told you I'm even willing to do it. I don't know
why. I must be insane. Because I totally don't trust
you people because of what you're allowing with that
43
agency after what they've done.
Why haven't you arrested people? It's
against the law to come in -- they didn't serve
anything. They didn't have a paper in their hand.
They didn't do those kind of things that they said they
did. I - you, you won't believe the witnesses here.
But are they going to have a chance to witness -- they
don't think so. Because you've allowed this agency to
be on the loose.
Dick, what do you expect of us? Come on. If
you were inside here as an American knowing something
about your rights guaranteed by the Constitution, you
would be not apt to go stick your head out into the
mouth of a dragon. And this is exactly what's going on
here.
~ DICK: Steve, listen. Steve.
Ié STEVE: I wish you could, I wish you could
tell me some information that they were being detained
or that they were being moved away from the situation,
that you, the FBI, were in control. I don't, I don't
like to hear what I'm hearing about the ATF and the
part they're still playing even when it comes to
transporting the people from this building.
DICK: Well, Steve, let's face it. There are
some things that we will, we will deal with when the
time is right --
C I
A 4 4
STEVE: No, no, no.
DICK: -- and that will be done.
STEVE: You start dealing with it now so we
can come out. I mean that's one of the biggest reasons
I have not been able to hurdle talking to the people
getting them to come out, Dick.
DICK: Okay. Steve, why don't you and your
family come out, and then you handle these issues?
Okay? Why don't we do that?
STEVE: How am I going to handle them when
I'll be, when I'll be shackled hands and feet and
thrown -- the key will be thrown away. Who's going to
hear me?
DICK: Steve, what would you like us to do?
Let you walk down the road and walk to town and then
maybe check in to one of the local motels? Is that the
way you want to handle it?
STEVE: Yeah, that's, that's what --
DICK: Well, it isn't going to be done that
way.
STEVE: -- before you guys came - the way
before it came, before it came to the place where you
came to take my life, I was free to do that then. I've
never done anything illegal nor have I broke any laws
in America. No laws, no statutes, no anything.
DICK: Then you will have, you will have the
~ x 4 s
ability to do just exactly that.
STEVE: So why do you have to rob some of the
time of my life by shackling me and all the rest of it
as you're going to do and mishandle, mistreat and
you're -- I really believe you're going to create some,
some things that I've done unlawful that are untrue. I
mean if this ATP, this powerful agency is out there
still involved already doing what they did, how they .
came to this door and riddled the front door and the
walls and everything.
You still don't know about the wounded and
the dead by the way. And what they did right -- Perry
Jones was 64 years old, standing there right beyond a
little past David when David poked his head out the
door. And they started right away shooting right off.
He should have been dead. Wait until you get to see
the front door clearly.
DICK: Steve, I want to see the front door.
But until you folks come out, we can't get that done.
STEVE: Yeah, but we don't trust you. You've
got this ATF still running loose and free. And they're
doing what they want to do. And it's obvious by John
Conroy's own statement they're after blood. Come on,
Dick. Are they not?
Listen to the man's statements. They're
after even any kind of a press -- they think somebody
O O
46
tipped us off. And we keep on saying that's nonsense.
David is inspired. He said, made a couple
statements. I wish Gonzalez would tell you exactly
what David said the day, the minutes he left before
that all came about. Question the man. Ask him what
were some of the warnings that David gave to him. What
you got to do, do quickly. And -- but he warned him
with a couple other statements first.
DICK: Steve, you and I have talked about
this at some length. I understand your concerns. I
appreciate those concerns. And I am telling you and
others have told you that you will have every
opportunity to get those issues resolved to your
satisfaction.
STEVE: Well, I tell you what. You come --
wherever I go, why don't you stay with me? If I have
to go --
DICK: I'll be happy to.
STEVE: -- to a cell, you stay in the cell 24
hours with me. You go through it with me then.
Because I'm someone that has not committed any crimes.
You apparently haven't either. So why don't you and I
both go to jail? I've done nothing. I, I came from
California out here just about 3 weeks before that,
that incident.
DICK: Okay.
swzvzi And I'm out here to look at the Bible47
and, and to work on some music programs that we were
getting ready for. And I was going back to California.
Here I'm in there talking to Wayne Martin when all the
gunshot and fire is taking place at the front entrance
of this door. Now I've got to give up my whole life
and all that I, I have done and everything.
DICK: You don't have to give up anything --
STEVE: And for doing what?
DICK: Steve, if you'd have come out there
24, 25 days ago, this may well have been resolved.
Okay? .
STEVE: May -- no, it would not have been.
Because the agency that came to take lives they --
Dick, Dick. Listen to this now. Seriously. How would
you view it, how would you term it, how would you
descéibe when three choppers are seen by so many people
in this complex, and they're firing at portions of the
building from up at that kind of height? That took
place. It was witnessed. It was seen. Dick, honest.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: Before the -- honest. Honest
indiscernible!.
DICK: Who, who has seen? The person that
saw it is the one that needs to report that. You can't
if you didn't see it. I wasn't here.
48
STEVE: No, I didn't see it. Because --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: - I was in a portion of -- I didn't
see it. The truth is I didn't see anything.
DICK: Then the attorneys that represent
these folks need to get together with them and, and
offer some, some testimony to the appropriate people.
STEVE: The, the only thing I saw is David
and three, four people running away from the door down
the hall.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: And Perry Jones was screaming. He
was, he was crying and --
DICK: well, that's worthwhile information.
STEVE: -- he had gotten shot -- first he got
shot in.the leg, and then they shot him in the stomach
area§- And of course he died then. He was in such pain
1
and agony until the moment he died. I mean --
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: -- he didn't do no one did
anything.
DICK: I understand what you're saying. And
we've talked about this before.
STEVE: But, but you understand. But here is
this ATF spokesperson saying that didn't happen. And
he's on the loose on the outside to do as he pleased,
O O
49
run his, run around free.
DICK: Steve.
STEVE: All those agents are running
around --
DICK: Steve.
STEVE: -- free. I forgot to tell you their,
what they all said. When they were on this property
you should have heard you - the foul, terrible _
language they were using. I never in I haven't
heard anything like that in years. And this is some
kind of a professional group on behalf of the United
States Government? What is going on?
DICK: Steve.
STEVE: Yes.
DICK: How is the world going to understand
that ifhyou don't tell them that?
Q STEVE: Well, why don't you incarcerate a few
of those people that were involved or someone that gave
the, the authority, that gave the command for them to
do it. Somebody did totally wrong, and nothing is
being done about them. I've told you that from day
one. Why don't you think I would have been out here
even the first day on my own? I would have been.
DICK: Steve, I hope you're not using this as
an excuse to stay in there.
STEVE: I'll tell you the honest truth. I
50
have told you from the beginning I don't trust that
agency, and I'm wondering about you guys half the time,
because I would have thought you'd have brought more
power to bear on them. Or that you --
DICK: Steve.
STEVE: -- would have been squawking about
them.
DICK: The Rangers, the Rangers are going to
take care of that crime scene investigation there.
STEVE: Yes, but I was also told by Byron and
others that ATF is also going to be involved right from
the beginning, right on through. I just found out. I
didn't know that, but I, I just found out that they're
even part of the transportation of the people leaving
this building, Dick. I heard that they're, they're
picking up and taking - are they involved too like
with;Livingston when it comes to questioning? Are they
in on that also? Tell me the truth.
DICK: No, they, they have not been involved
up at the jail in any of that sort of stuff.
STEVE: Well, I didn't say up at the jail
now. I'm talking -- don't, you know, let's -- I'm
asking have the ATF, have they had opportunity when a
person leaves this building to the time they're in
jail, anytime in between to talk to any of these
people?
I O
51
DICK: The - they - they're not involved in
the taking of any statements. I tell you the way it
starts, okay --
STEVE: Well, I - are they involved at all
I'm asking? _Don't, don't keep on --
DICK: They process --
STEVE: defining it so you don't have to
consider it a lie.
DICK: -- okay. Listen. The fingerprints
are taken by ATP, okay?
STEVE: Why?
DICK: In a - why, because --
STEVE: Why not the Sheriff or your
department? You're into - I mean FBI is into it long
before the ATP even existed.
M DICK: I understand.
é STEVE: And you're better at it --
' DICK: They've got a, they've got a very
limited part of this. And that is to take photographs
and --
STEVE: Why do they have any part though,
Dick? I thought the FBI came in to, to handle the
whole thing now. Why --
DICK: Steve, their involvement --
STEVE: ~- why are they part?
DICK: Steve, let me - please, let me let
O O
52
you understand the FBI's involvement. The FBI's
involvement is limited here at this time to trying to
rectify this whole problem. Okay? We're trying to do
our best to ensure that your constitutional rights are,
are assured to you which they will be. We're trying
to --
swsvni I like the sounds of that.
DICK: Well, we are doing everything possible
to ensure that that's happening. The Texas Rangers
have the overall responsibility for whatever criminal
acts may have been done by either ATF or by anyone
inside.
STEVE: That's fine with us also.
DICK: And that's fair. Is that not fair?
STEVE: But not - only if the ATF is out of
the picture when the, when the Texas Rangers are doing
theig job. I don't mind if them or any or they are
here doing that. That's more - that's great. But ATP
should not be involved at all being that they're the
ones that ~-
DICK: Well, Steve --
STEVE: perpetrated the, the whole thing
in the first place.
DICK: While we're there, let's, let's
reflect on this for a minute. Why were they there in
the first instance?
53
STEVE: Good question. Good question.
DICK: They were there to serve and execute
an arrest and search warrant.
STEVE: They never said anything. Not by a
bullhorn. Not by a knock at the door. Not by any
reason. Not by any reason.
Even before they got -- just about the time
they got to the porch is when David opened the door and
poked his head out. And, and people -- women were
looking out the window at this whole thing when they --
those two so-called cattle trucks came flying into the
driveway, pulled up to a stop, and they're all hunting
and grunting, and no one could hear anything exactly
what was being said. And, and such a fast was moved --
move was made on that door with guns pointed. And all
of a sudden bang, bang, bang, bang, bang like that.
f David just before they shot the first shot I
can still hear his voice, because I was at the end of
the hall. I heard his voice loud and clear. Stay
back. There's women and children here. Let's talk.
And all of a sudden it started. It started.
DICK: Well, then you've got to take your
chances with coming out and expressing that sort --
STEVE: I -- how do you when that, when that
agency is on the loose. They did what --
DICK: Steve, they're not --
STEVE: - they wanted then and they still54
are.
DICK: on the loose. Please. They're not
on the loose. Let's talk sensibly with one another.
They are not on the loose. That is not a term --
End of tape 159.!
O O
4/W P /é
' U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #160
3/25/93
10:20 a.m. - 12:00 p.m.
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2
Tape 160!
STEVE: -- if they're a part of this whole
thing, this court procedure, why are they -- why are
you allowing them to have freedom of speech and not me
when, when they came --
DICK: Okay, now you've asked me about --
listen.
STEVE: -- when they, when they came to take
my life. Here a man is standing there giving lies to,
to the world, and I can't say a word in, in response to
that.
DICK: Steve, the Constitution --
STEVE: You want me to get locked up in jail
before I can speak while this man is out here in total
control, this Conroy and all these people.
DICK: The Constitution gives you both - the
Constitution allows ATF to talk the same way it does --
STEVE: The Constitution has no allowance
for, for groups and organizations like ATF in the first
place. It goes against the Second Amendment. First,
Second, Third, Fourth, there's been so many amendments
violated through this whole thing.
DICK: Steve, listen, please. Let's talk
together sensibly and --
STEVE: I am.
DICK: discuss this in a reasonable
3
fashion. All right? ATP has very limited part of this
investigation, okay? '
STEVE: They --
DICK:' Live with it, okay? Because you'll
live with it. And that's - let's get beyond that.
The FBI is handling this part of it. The Rangers is
handling the large part of the, the investigation to
follow, okay?
STEVE: I'm having a hard time getting beyond
that, Dick. E
DICK: Let's deal with that. Let's deal with
it. That's not open for debate. That is the way it's
going to be done. That is what we're going to do. And
now let's get on to the substantive issues.
STEVE: What, what part does ATP have to do
with Interpol?
DICK: with Interpol?
STEVE: Do they have anything to do with
Interpol?
DICK: Steve, why - ATP -- what does
Interpol have to do with Mt. Carmel, Texas today --
STEVE: I don't know. It was something that
was brought up not by me.
DICK: Well, that question has nothing to do
with anything. What do you mean what do they have to
do with Interpol?
4
STEVE: Apparently, somebody in the press
asked a couple questions about that. And I'm just
curious about information. .
DICK: well, what was the answer that you
heard?
STEVE: I didn't hear it.
DICK: Well, the answer is that has nothing
to do with this case. Nothing to do with this at all.
There are certain givens here --
STEVE: Is ATF though, is ATF, are they
involved at all with the International Police? Are
they? I
DICK: No. Interpol isn't even a police
agency.
STEVE: I was told that the FBI was by one of
your agents. I was told --
DICK: It's not a police agency. Interpol is
simply a means to collect and gather intelligence data.
Purely that. It's not a police organization. I don't
know where you folks are getting some of this
information that you have. It's wrong.
Okay, let's get back to the issue at hand,
okay. We are going to move on this thing --
STEVE: They did --
DICK: -- and get it resolved. And, and you
and I are going to get it done.
92
5
STEVE: we just noticed now, it just came to
our attention. I didn't even - I haven't really
looked out. But I guess you ran over all the kids
motorcycles, even the little kids.
DICK: What are you talking about?
STEVE: I'm talking about what that was done
2 days ago.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: They just happened to notice now
finally that you even ran over these little motorbikes
that the kids had.
DICK: Well, listen. The government will
take care of that property damage.
STEVE: David's saying -- listen. David's
saying you better hope that he doesn't teach the seven
seals - or what?
DAVID: They're going to suffer.
STEVE: Or you're going to suffer.
DICK: All right. I, I understand what
you're saying. All right. I'm willing to take that
chance. All right? I'm here to get this done.
STEVE: He said, he said those are the little
children that you love so much.
DICK: All right. And I do. And we do.
STEVE: It doesn't seem that way.
DICK: Listen.
6
STEVE: See, this is the part that I'm having
a hard time with, Dick --
DICK: Steve.
STEVE: -- because of actions --
DICK: Steve, you're an articulate guy, okay?
You --
STEVE: Not -- a little bit.
DICK: Okay. And, and Wayne is a lawyer.
You guys file as many civil suits as you like. Get
into court. I
STEVE: David says he thinks that's called a
punk. He says there's no call for that kind of thing.
DICK: What's, what's called a punk?
STEVE: Being a punk to do that to, to like
little children. That's like a bully.
DICK: Well, you know, I guess there have
been some suggestions that David has used those folks
to his own advantage in there. so who --
STEVE: Who said -- okay, do you want --
would you like to talk with Dick? He's saying that
you're using them to your ad-- wait, if you knew, if
you knew the Bible, Dick. If you knew the Bible and
the part that these little children have to play, you
would never speak that way. But being that you're
ignorant of that, I can understand that.
DICK: Well, let's, let's --
7
STEVE: Just, just wait a minute. Wait a
minute. No, no, no. Just -- '
DICK: -- name calling isn't going to do us
any good, is it?
STEVE: -- no, no. Wait, wait. Dick, just
like this guy Craig Smith, the words that came out of
that man's mouth will judge himself in the judgment.
That man, he is -- he's done more harm than any of you
people ever have. The things that have come out of his
mouth he'll wish he never had said. He shouldn't have
judged before he had a chance to talk and hear directly
and hear what people have to say themselves.
DICK: Well, aren't we all to withhold our
judgment until you folks come out?
STEVE: That is -- all of us. You, me --
DICK: All of us are waiting for you. Is
that what it is?
STEVE: - we don't have any right to judge
each other in the first place, do we?
DICK: No. Then, then don't judge him, okay?
STEVE: I'm - hey, I'm just hearing what the
man is saying and all the accusations and the lies that
he's stating.
DICK: He's, he's expressing -- did you hear
those folks calling in?
STEVE: And, and he's saying about - pardon?
8
DICK: Steve, did you hear those folks
calling in on his line? '
STEVE: Yeah. David is saying how we treated
you people, I mean the ATF, how we allowed them, in
fact encouraged them, to come out and get their dead
and their wounded. And then --
Q DICK: We understand that.
,STEVE: - and then the way they treat -- and
then the way you guys treated us when we had wounded
and people ready to die and gangrene. What a
difference of attitude between us and you people.
DICK: Listen, we have offered you all the
medical attention you could possibly ever need.
STEVE: Yeah, and to have us incarcerated in
jail so then you can fry the very people that you want
to heal.
DICK: No, listen. All of us in this country
have the right to express an opinion. The call-ins to
that show --
STEVE: That's what it used to be until there
was a ATF.
DICK: Steve, Steve. Let me finish. Let me
finish, please.
STEVE: But I don't believe it. I've heard
it before, Dick.
DICK: Okay.
9
STEVE: You and I, we keep in going around
and around.
DICK: when people call in on the phone, is
that directed by us? No.
STEVE: It's easy for someone to say that
when you're in your position. when you're in
authoritative position, the FBI who controls the press,
controls us, controls my old freedoms of expression --
DICK: Is this the grand conspiracy you want
to tell me about?
STEVE: Pardon?
DICK: The grand, the grand conspiracy you
want to talk to me now about. The theory of the grand
conspiracy.
STEVE: what grand conspiracy?
DICK: Well, I mean that's what you're
suggesting.
STEVE: I am -- he's saying I'm suggesting
some grand conspiracy.
DICK: Steve, we need to --
STEVE: Oh, it is true. You're right. It's
true. No, you are right. You know that you're part of
it.
DICK: Okay. Well, let's --
STEVE: Grand conspiracy. And of course --
DICK: Let's --
10
STEVE: -- you guys have the ability to, of
course --
DICK: Steve, I thought you had --
STEVE: -- give everybody --
DICK: -- more sense than that. I, I
really --
STEVE: Now, now, look, look.
DICK: -- thought I was talking about an
educated, sensible man.
STEVE: You want, you want me to -- okay,
listen to me then, Dick. Do you want me to start
giving you the names of professors of universities that
have researched this out? ~
DICK: Listen. Hey. Listen, let's -- 4
STEVE: Listen to me. Listen to me now.
DICK: The news briefing. Listen, I want to
let you know, though, the news briefing is on here
momentarily. And I want you to be able to listen to
that --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: - so that we can talk about those
kinds of issues that concern you.
STEVE: But I really don't care about this
so-called grand conspiracy --
DICK: Let's get something going.
STEVE: - in the first place. I'm concerned
ll
about --
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: - the, what's been shown to me right
here with this ATF.
DICK: Let's talk about it. Let's move on
it. And we'll, we'll get it resolved. But listen.
Why don't you look at the press briefing.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: And then we'll get back to it. And
please --
STEVE: Talk to you right afterwards.
DICK: Let's make sure that we get your
gentleman on the road, okay?
STEVE: I'll talk to you right after it.
DICK: We'll get back to you.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
DICK: Bye.
iii
STEVE: Hello?
DICK: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
DICK: Dick again.
STEVE: Hey, Dick. How is it going?
DICK: Well, I'm here. You're there. Let's
get on with this thing.
STEVE: Hi, Dick. Okay. What day is it
f92
92today anyway?
DICK:
your life day.
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE12
It's time to get on with the rest of
I'm serious. What day is it today?
Well, I'm not sure what day it is.
Is it Wednesday? Is it Thursday?
I, I believe it's Thursday.
Thursday. Okay.
It is by my watch at any rate.
My watch is saying Wednesday. That's
why I thought I was off here.
DICK:Well, you're, you're a day behind.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: You're a day behind. Listen. You
know, we've gone over this thing again this morning,
some of these concerns we've talked about at some
length --
STEVE: Right.
DICK: - before. But let's get on with,
let's get on with the substantive issues here.
STEVE: Did you hear the press conference?
DICK: Yeah, I did.
STEVE: What did you think? Man, what you
and I were talking about the very moment we got off the
phone, what that ATF spokesperson, I mean mind blower.
Total mind blower. And the way he put into perspec
O O
13
look at how he has the freedom to say anything he
wants. He's calling those people liars. Awesome.
DICK: We can sum this up in --
STEVE: Awesome.
DICK: -- a few short words. Let me tell
you. Come on out. Talk to the press.
STEVE: Am I going to have, am I going to --
okay then promise --
DICK: Seven words.
STEVE: I will. I will, Dick. Promise me I
can stand at a podium like him. I will not be
incarcerated. I will not be charged. And I will do
that. You, you promise me that unless you want to do
the same with him. If you do it to the both of us, I
see some fairness in that. But if you want to do that
to just me, and you want to curtail my speech, my
expression, it's not going to happen.
DICK: Steve, listen. I've told you and
we've told you many times that you will have exactly
what you wish, the freedom to do that. The ability to
do that. And it's guaranteed by the Constitution under
the First Amendment to the Constitution.
STEVE: Are you telling me -- are you going
to guarantee then that I'm not going to be handcuffed
and shackled and, and charged with something?
DICK: No, in fact I'm not going to guarantee
14
you that. In fact, I will guarantee you just the
opposite. Initially, you will be when you're '
transported to the jail, and you will be processed like
the others, and you will have that ability to do those
things. Now I told you I'm not going to lie to you.
STEVE: I haven't seen that happen - what
you've promised, I haven't seen it happen with anyone
else.
I DICK: You haven't. Have you heard any your,
your folks on the local radio channels? They have --
STEVE: I haven't.
DICK: - access to the TV.
STEVE: The only one I heard was a couple
mornings ago someone called in to some radio station in
Dallas. I did hear that.
DICK: They have had access. In fact,
yesterday when I was out on the street I heard Oliver
on Ron -- is it Engleman phonetic sp.!? Is that how
you pronounce that?
STEVE: I guess so. I don't know.
DICK: Yeah. And there have been national TV
interviews with some of these folks. It's there. You
know, it's there. It's available for you. And you,
you know --
STEVE: Who's had national interviews on TV?
DICK: Some of the folks have.
92
W
92
/-
92Q O
15
STEVE: Well, that's news to me.
DICK: It was either Brad or Kevin.
Yesterday. My now my understanding was there was
supposed to be something on one of the local shows
today also. But I'm not sure which exactly one it was.
Because frankly, you know, since I've been here I
haven't read a newspaper or seen a television show.
But that will be given to you. You will have
that ability to do that. And that's guaranteed. It's
guaranteed by the Constitution.
STEVE: Well, you know, I'm already concerned
about one promise that was given to us by a number of
negotiators.
DICK: Okay, and what's that?
STEVE: And that's that we were able to take
our Bibles in there and keep them. And now we hear for
a fact that a number of them have I don't know how
many have been taken away. I don't care for -- I mean
that is ba~- I mean when the people here heard that,
that was - I
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- I'll tell you what. That was bad.
That is real bad.
DICK: Listen, Steve. Everybody over there
has a Bible. In some instances, they may not have the
same Bible. One Bible had a bullet hole in it.
C O
16
STEVE: No, no, no. But Dick, Dick, Dick.
DICK: That's called evidence. I
STEVE: That's what we agreed on when the
people before they came --
DICK: Steve.
STEVE: Dick. Come on. You're breaking
promises. Don't you understand? V
DICK: Steve, we're not breaking promises.
All those folks have a Bible.
STEVE: No, they said can they have -- no,
they, can they bring and have their own Bibles that
they're coming out with. That was --
DICK: Many of them --
STEVE: -- and it was stated yes, they can
keep and -- why do you think they put them in plastic
bags? So they wouldn't get muddy and dirty and wet as
they were coming out with their Bibles for.
DICK: Steve, a good number of them do
have --
STEVE: That's why we agreed with that.
DICK: A good number of them do have their
Bibles. Other instances there was a bullet in one
Bible. That's why it was taken away temporarily. It's
evidence, Steve. And it's evidence that will work for
you as well as against you.
STEVE: Okay. That can be understandable.
O I
17
DICK: Okay, great. We agree on that issue.
The Bible is there for them -- you know what you're
trying to do, Steve? Or it sounds to me. Now you, you
correct me if I'm wrong here perhaps. Okay? You make
these kinds of issues, you bring these up, and you use
them as a means to, to ball up the whole, the whole
effort here.
STEVE: Dick --
DICK: Steve, let's move on.
STEVE: Not, not - no, no, no, no.
DICK: Move on.
STEVE: You're saying correct me if you're
wrong. I'm going to correct you. You are incorrect.
You're wrong.
DICK: Okay. You correct me, and I will
correct you when I see you've been wrong. Go ahead
please.
STEVE: That is not - look, Dick. In
honesty, it is not true. Look. If you saw my Bible,
I've had that thing for so long. I've used it. I'm
familiar with its pages. Every Bible - there's
different Bible publishers. You become fairly
familiar --
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: Wait now, what you're saying --
DICK: - I know, I know that. I do know
18
that.
STEVE: - in your mind with where certain
passages are. And if you give me some new Bible, it
will take me forever to remember where this is or
where --
DICK: Okay. So you're telling me you're not
coming out because you can't have your own Bible.
Okay.
STEVE: No, I'm not. No. Now don't put
words into my mouth.
T DICK: Well, then let's discuss --
STEVE: I'm saying it makes, it makes it
harder for me to deal with people here when they see
that that is a big issue. Not to you, but when they
come out they want their own Bibles. so if they are in
a place of solitude or whatever it might be, it will
give them some kind of strength and less complaints as
to maybe what else might be going on. Do you
understand?
DICK: I hear what you're saying.
STEVE: Just that it's as simple as that.
I'm not making it a big issue.
DICK: Steve. /
STEVE: I'm not saying that's an issue that's
going to keep people from coming out even --
DICK: Well, then let's talk about those
19
issues that will, will ensure that they will come out.
Let's talk about those.
STEVE: But those are -- these are all part
of it. Let's talk about the whole package of things
that we've asked that you people have agreed with.
DICK: Okay. Then would you, would you wish
us to hang up the phone and not talk at all? Is that
what you're saying?
STEVE: Man, are you a --
DICK: On, on an issue like that?
STEVE: -- are you a poor listener and an
understander sic! of what I'm saying. If that's what
you're perceiving me to say, then we might as well. I
don't --
DICK: No, let's move on. Let's move on.
STEVE: Look at, if you want, if you want --
hey, look at. John Cox hung up like a child last night
on David. I --
DICK: Well, you haven't heard me hang up.
STEVE: -- I was shocked.
DICK: I'm asking you how can we move on,
Steve, to get this corrected? That's what I'm asking
you. I'm --
STEVE: That is not what you -- you were
making statements. You were putting words into my
mouth and you were making me say --
O O
2_o
DICK: I'm asking you.
STEVE: - and putting connotations on the
statements I was making that were not there.
DICK: Okay, then ask -- answer this direct
question from me to you. How do we go about getting
this issue resolved? I'm asking you.
STEVE: By getting the -- that's okay, you
brought -- we're bringing up these issues so they can
have a clear understanding of why it appears to them
that you people went back on your given word to them.
Because I'm telling you something that seems like it's
so small to you about having their own Bible which
they're - I
DICK: No, I don't think that's small at all.
I _-
STEVE: Okay, good. I'm glad you agreed with
that. Because it isn't a small thing.
DICK: It isn't. I understand that.
STEVE: But in getting, in getting answers
back to me, I can alleviate those kind of concerns that
they have. - I
DICK: Okay. Let me give you the '
explanation.
STEVE: How many people have - okay. Give
me a --
DICK: Steve, Steve. Please. All right. I
don't know exactly how many people
Bible or have another -- I do know
that each person has a Bible. Now_ 21
may have their own
for an absolute fact
I know that some
have the Bibles they came out with. I know that some
do not. And, and the reason that those that do not
have them, that the Bibles were taken from them because
it was believed that they might have evidentiary value.
That's the straight truth.
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:Okay.
There's no conspiracy there. Period.
Can I, can I ask you then, by now
they should be able to discern whether there's
something there,
the owners then.
DICK:and they should return the Bibles to
Steve, are you now going to direct
what we and law enforcement need to do? I mean if
that's what you're there to do -
STEVE:
DICK:
it.
STEVE:
awesome.
DICK:
STEVE:
you you continue
you have alreadyNo.
-- then come on out, we'll talk about
Dick, are you awesome. Dick, you're
Come on out, we'll talk about it.
Here I'm saying -- no, I'm saying to
to keep your word and be good on what
promised and stated, Dick. Can -- do
92IO I
22
you understand what I just said?
DICK: I understand 100 percent.
STEVE: Okay. That's what I said. Now
that's why I need to ask you if you understand.
DICK: Okay -- -
STEVE: Because when you reply to me in the
manner you do, obviously you have not heard or
understood what I said.
DICK: I hear well and I understand.
STEVE: Because these people -- that's why
when these people went out, David and I both asked you
negotiators if these people could come out with their
own Bibles and keep them with them. And it was
guaranteed yes they would and could. Now you come
around and tell me the contrary. Now wait a minute.
So again you're breaching what you had promised.
DICK: Steve, what did you do before you
became a spokesman in there? Did you used to sell used
cars or, or what? Knives perhaps? Listen. You know,
you can keep harping on these kinds of issues, and it
isn't going to do one iota of good. I'm telling --
listen to my explanation, please.
STEVE: Dick, why can't you just keep your
word?
DICK: Let me give you one more time the
explanation that I just gave to you. Okay? Hear, hear
O O
23
what I say, please. I'm telling you that each and
every person that leaves the compound will have a
Bible. Okay? In some instances, they have not been
allowed to keep the, the Bible they left with, because
it has been determined that they may be possible
evidentiary in nature.
STEVE: Give me an example, Dick, at least.
DICK: I just did. with a bullet in the
Bible.
STEVE: No, no. I'm --
DICK: Okay?
STEVE: -- that -- no. That's, that's clear.
DICK: Okay, that's clear to you.
STEVE; But why would you take someone's
Bib- I mean give me an example of those -- because
there was only one Bible that I, I -- you know what? I
never even knew that about Ophelia's Bible until the
day she walked out the door. I'd never even seen it.
She hadn't said anything about it to, to me. Maybe to
others --
DICK: Okay, then perhaps you don't know what
else - perhaps some of the other things that you're
not aware --
STEVE: No, that's why, that's why in honesty
I'm asking you, Dick. That's -- I want to know.
DICK: Because a determination was made that
I
K
9224
they --
STEVE: No, give me an example of what they
found in there like, like what? _
DICK: Steve, I wasn't there. I wasn't
there, so how would I know?
STEVE: Well, find out for me. You're a
negotiator and you can tell them that we want --
because there's people hounding me morning, noon and
white -- night why were their Bibles taken from them?
Do you understand? I mean for me -- look at, I'm
voicing their questions or concerns. Do you believe
me?
DICK: I, I understand what you're saying.
STEVE: And they're saying they want their
own -- like some of these people that were thinking
about going out, like say for instance Yvette.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: And the mother, they got their own
personal Bibles. So when the report comes back that
that happened, that these Bibles were taken from them,
all of a sudden now that makes them all the less apt to
come out. That's not --
DICK: So what you're saying --
STEVE: -- that's not my decision, Dick.
DICK: So this whole process is now going to
be held up because of somebody --
25
STEVE: That's -- no, no. Now listen.
DICK: - having had a Bible taken from them?
STEVE: No, no, no. Let's, let's add them
up, Dick. Let's add them up. There's that. There's
the thing of Livingston that was promised he would call
back that day. He would see the children and call
back. That was promised. There's also the, the
cutting off of the phone cords. There was the
destruction of more property. Let's keep all --
there's the, the playing of the weird music through
the, the daily and through other religious times.
It's been very inconsistent with that kind of
thing. So all those things contribute together.
That's only a few of the many. If you want me to go
on, I'll keep on adding to the list.
DICK: I think I may have heard those before.
STEVE: Okay, keep that in mind then. When
these things come about again and again, they're less
apt to trust you, because what are they to base the
trust upon?
DICK: Okay. Let -- now you've offered that
to me. Let me offer --
sways: All right.
DICK: -- a couple things to you.
STEVE: I'm listening.
DICK: Okay. We have done many, many things
26
in order to move this along right from the first day.
Now let's start -- A
~ STEVE: Now if you want to go back to the
first day then let me also go -- Dick, I thought --
DICK: Steve, listen.
STEVE: -- we weren't going to go back there.
Let's --
DICK: Listen. Listen.
STEVE: -- let's pick up on now.
DICK: Listen.
STEVE: Pick up on now.
DICK: Well, let's pick up -- absolutely.
That's exactly where I wanted to go. Starting today.
STEVE: well, I know you do. That's why
let's do it then.
DICK: This is day 26. Let's go from here.
Forget what you have just said. I will forget what I
was about to say. Let's move on. How do we do it?
Let's, let's start with sending Louis down the road,
okay? We're ready to receive him.
STEVE: What about Livingston Pagan? I need
to -- in fact, why was it promised -- we need to --
there's -- I'm going to tell you something. We still*
need to hear from him, sir. If you need to tell his
attorney, you can say that Steve Schneider --
DICK: Steve, you don't have any ability to
27
tell that attorney what Steve Schneider wants to hear.
STEVE: No, at least let him --
DICK: He doesn't care what you have to say.
STEVE: - no, listen. At least let him
know. Of course he's, they got rights.
DICK: Did you hear me in the previous
conversation?
STEVE: But you can say come - can't you
come back and tell me well, he doesn't want to at
least --
DICK: What did - did you hear me? Did you
hear me? I just told you that on, during our last
conversation. I personally talked to Bradley Gates.
He is the gentleman that represents Livingston Fagan.
STEVE: Wayne Martin. Just a minute. Just a
minute. Wayne. Wayne? Wayne Martin. Dick's on the
phone, and I want him to tell you -- he says that
Brad's got attor-- not Brad, but that Livingston's got
an attorney and that according to his attorney they're
not letting him talk. I said to him the day he left,
we had an agreement it was --
DICK: That's not what I said at all.
STEVE: -- that he would call me when he got
there and that I, they -- whatever they did to him, he
never called nor the following day. And now they're
saying it's his attorney. I don't buy it. I don't buy
it. Do you want28
to talk to him about legalities or
about what they breach their promises over and over
again. He wants
what is it based
asked -- we said
Bibles. We have
them as evidenceus to send out people. And I'm saying
upon? He's taken Bibles away which we
and asked if they could keep their own
now taken them away, because they use
against these people.
Wayne Martin's right here. I want to have
him talk to you --
DICK: Good. I'll be happy, I'll be happy to
speak to Mr. Martin.
STEVE:
WAYNE:
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
spoken with you.About Livingston mainly.
Hello, Dick.
Wayne, how are you?
Okay, and you?
It's been a couple days since I've
I was down there with Sheila when she
spoke with you last.
WAYNE: Yeah, I've noticed, I've noticed that
you're treating her as if she's going to receive the
same treatment as Brad and Kevin.
DICK: Well, you know you, you're a real
intuitive kind of guy in there, aren't you?
WAYNE:
DICK:Oh, yes.
Let me explain to you. Okay, I want
to - Steve obviously misrepresented what I told to
O I
29
him. Let me, let me give it to you, okay? In terms of
Livingston Pagan, all right? Can we talk about that?
Are you --
WAYNE: Yes, we can.
DICK: - ready to listen? Okay. Livingston
left the compound. Our expectation was to try to put
him through to you folks. However, given our
communications set up at that particular time that
was -- we were unable to do that. We were up the
forward position up there, we spoke with you from
there. We did not have the capability. I myself
suggested let us make a tape, and let's make that
available to you folks so that you can listen to that.
Well, apparently Livingston Fagan had what we
call in the street an attitude. And you're familiar
with an attitude, are you not? He - it started with
apparently the mud on his boots. And he wanted someone
to clean the mud from his trousers.
WAYNE: Yeah, but Dick --
DICK: Well, that's a little unreasonable.
I've got mud on my feet. And I didn't ask Mr.
Livingston Pagan to take mud from my shoes. Okay.
WAYNE: But Dick, there's nothing in the
Constitution about attitudes.
DICK: Absolutely. But it, it --
WAYNE: If you say it's unreasonable --
30
DICK: -- does have some impact on what, on
the, our ability to speak with him. Let me just --
WAYNE: No, you're saying, you're --
DICK: -- let me finish now.
WAYNE: No, hold on.
DICK: Let me finish.
WAYNE: Before you go to the next point,
let's, let's just talk about what you've already
brought up. Attitude.
DICK: Okay.
WAYNE: Okay. Now on attitude, you're saying
that because he had an unreasonable attitude in your
opinion that it gave you the right to break your word
that had been worked out prior to his release.
DICK: Now did you hear me say that?
WAYNE: No. That's the conclusion.
DICK: I don't remember saying that. Okay,
well, that's an error. Okay, that's in error. Let me,
let me go on.
WAYNE: But the, the agreement was that he
could make a phone call.
DICK: Absolutely. But we did not at the
time have the ability to make that phone call in to
you. So --
WAYNE: Okay.
DICK: - we said would you mind making a
' 31
tape? He said in fact, I think he threw in a word,
I think he said I'm not making any damn tape is the way
he, the way he phrased it if I, if I remember
correctly.
WAYNE: Still constitutional.
DICK: Absolutely. We have no problem with
that. However, he refused to make the tape. In fact,
he even refused to offer his name. And that's fine.
That's constitutional. Okay?
WAYNE: Right. Right.
DICK: So yesterday I thought well, given the
day, maybe it's time to go back in. I explained or I
called the sheriff's office and determined that he was
down at the, at the county jail. I went down there,
and when I arrived I found out that he had received a
hearing, and a fellow by the name of Brad Gates had
been appointed to represent him. I then called --
obviously, I, I have no ability to go to, to Livingston
Pagan as a represented defendant, okay?
WAYNE: Yes.
- DICK: I called his attorney, Mr. Brad Gates,
who told me that while he had been appointed he had not
had an opportunity to speak with Livingston Pagan. I
said will you please do this for me? Will you go to
Mr. Livingston Fagan. will you tell him that we would
like the opportunity to speak with him, that we felt it
O O
32
might have some positive impact on resolving this issue
out at the compound or the camp and that the folks
inside would like to hear from him. I said will you
please go to him, and then get back to me. He, he
agreed to do that. He said I haven't, I haven't talked
to him at this point. But I will do that.
He then returned my call in the afternoon in
my absence. But he did pass the information on to
another agent of the FBI indicating that Mr. Fagan at
this point did not have any desire to speak with us nor
did he have a desire to make a tape for us. Okay?
WAYNE: Dick, I can hardly hear you because
of the loudspeakers outside.
DICK: Really?
WAYNE: Yeah. Is there any way --
DICK: Well, ask me a question.
WAYNE: - we can turn up the volume on this
telephone?
DICK: Turn up the volume on the telephone?
WAYNE: Yeah.
DICK: Okay, can you hear me now? Can you
hear me better?
WAYNE: Well --
DICK: I can hear you fine, Wayne. Do you
have questions for me regarding --
WAYNE: No. Please continue about what Brad
Q I
Gates told you.33
DICK: Okay. That's sum and substance. He
said that his client did not have a desire to talk with
me now. And obviously that's a constitutional right
that he has.
WAYNE: That's right.
DICK: And we're not going to try to breach
that. So that's where we are. The door is open for
him to give us a call. They have my name and I, you
know, I'm willing to talk with them at any time as are
other agents here.
WAYNE: Okay, I understand that's where we
are.
DICK: Okay.
WAYNE: And -- but how we got
was that you made an agreement, and you
couldn't keep it.
DICK: Now what agreement are
about now?
WAYNE: You made an agreement
negotiators did, whoever it was --
DICK: Okay.to this point
knew that you
we talking
with Steve, the
WAYNE: -- that we would be able to talk to
Livingston Pagan, not with a tape. Not
tape but by means of a telephone call.
DICK: Okay.by means of a
34
WAYNE: And you knew you, that you didn't
have the ability, or you're not willing to, to get that
ability. And I think the government can do anything.
And you broke the agreement.
DICK: We did not break any agreement. The
reason we went forward, Byron and I, the other day was
because we had the problem with the telephone. We went
forward then. And it was our understanding that we had
the ability to connect Mr. Pagan with the compound. We
did not have that ability at that time because of the
phone system. All right? At the time he came --
WAYNE: Well, why was the agreement made
then?
DICK: Because it was our, it was our belief
that we did have that ability then. All right?
WAYNE: So you're saying you made a mistake.
DICK: If you want to call it a mistake I'll,
I'll certainly agree to that. My understanding was --
again, Wayne, if I can't do it with a hammer or a
screwdriver I can't do it. But my understanding was
that we did have that ability. However that, that was
brought to my attention that we did not have it. So I
said well let's, let's make a tape then and, and make
sure that these folks are able to hear and understand
this.
WAYNE: Well, how could Mr. Fagan then make
Q I
35
an informed decision as to whether he should make a
tape without having any legal counsel, no access to me,
no access to a counsel on the outside?
DICK: Well, he does have. And you know,
voluntariness sic! is obviously a term that's known to
you. We asked him. We didn't try to force him.
WAYNE: But he had no counsel. He had no
legal --
DICK: So in other words, your expectation
was that he was going to be given an attorney and then
allowed, be allowed to make a telephone call? Is that
what you're saying?
WAYNE: I'm saying that our people are not
going to make decisions if they do not have legal
counsel.
DICK: We, we certainly wouldn't quarrel with
that at all. It was his choice. Apparently he felt
that he needed to make a telephone call when he came
out. Did he need an attorney to make a telephone call?
Is that what you're telling me?
WAYNE: NO.
DICK: Well, what are you telling me?
WAYNE: I'm telling you that, that you took
away his ability to make the telephone call. Then you
ask him to make a decision without having any access to
me or any other lawyer.
36
DICK: Wayne, did you, did you learn that
somewhere, I mean that kind of thought process? 'You're
a Harvard graduate I understand. Your thought process
is a little --
WAYNE: Let's not get personal, Dick. I
haven't said --
DICK: Well, what I'm suggesting --
WAYNE: -- anything about your thought
process.
DICK: What I'm telling you is that you know
full well that we cannot guarantee or cannot force him
to make a telephone call. We have given him the
opportunity. And obviously the first, the first
moments we were not able to hook him up with you
because of the phone problem.
WAYNE: But that was the time when you asked
him to make a decision about making a tape.
DICK: Exactly.
WAYNE: So that's the time we're talking
about. Not --
DICK: Well, that's what we suggested to him
that we cannot hook you up directly right now. We will
give you the opportunity to make a tape if you like.
And at that point, he'd already complained about the
mud on his boots, the mud on his trousers, and was 100
percent uncooperative. He wouldn't even give us his
Q O
37
name. so how do you expect him to make a tape if he
won't even give us his name. He didn't want to make a
tape.
WAYNE: I didn't expect him to make a tape.
You did.
DICK: well, what I'm, what I'm suggesting is
he had no, no desire to make a tape at that point in
time. Yesterday when I went to him or went through his
attorney he also voiced, which is his right obviously,
that he did not, did not wish to make a tape. And
that's where we are.
WAYNE: We, we don't even need to talk about
that decision. I mean he has his own attorney.
DICK: He certainly does. And he's got the
ability to make telephone calls at will now also.
Except he doesn't have the ability to go into the
compound, because we control those lines. But he does
have the ability to call any other attorney he so
desires or any news media or anyone else as long as
they will accept a collect telephone call. He has that
ability. -
I WAYNE: well, Steve wants to know why, why
we're unable to, to have a telephone from the forward
position so that our people can talk to us.
DICK: From the forward position.
WAYNE: That's, that's how you described it.
» as
DICX: In other words, once they leave that
location and before they get to the county jail, you
want to hear from them?
WAYNE: Yes, sir. That's what we've been --
DICK: Well, it was my understanding that you
wanted to ensure that they were properly treated when
they got to there. So what function would that serve?
I mean aren't your -- isn't one of your concerns that
they're well treated when they get from, from the
compound to the county jail?
WAYNE: Yes, it is.
DICK: Isn't that what we're talking about?
WAYNE: Right.
DICK: Okay. Then that's where we need to
make the call from just as we did with Sheila.
WAYNE: well, why wasn't Fagan allowed to
call from the county jail?
DICK: Because we had no ability to patch
that call into you, Wayne. That's what I've been
telling you. We didn't have the technical capability.
WAYNE: Okay. Then that's, then that's the
link we're asking you to make.
DICK: Okay.
WAYNE: Okay?
DICK: What's your point? I just told you
that we tried to do that yesterday. And he wasn't
39
willing at the time. Now obviously maybe his attorney
has, has cautioned him about doing some of those
things. But that's his choice, not ours.
WAYNE: No, no, no, no, no. We're saying
that, that if you had the capability set up so that --
DICK: Um-hum.
WAYNE: -- our people can talk
county jail and assure us that
DICK: Okay. We did
course. And with others, Brad
WAYNE: Without your
other things --they were
that with
demandingto us from the
well treated.
Sheila, of
and Kevin.
that they do
DICK: Now, now hold it. Let's, let's handle
that issue by issue. We have not
did, do anything.
WAYNE: You asked for a
DICK: Well, we offered
make a tape in lieu of being able
phone, because we didn't have thedemanded that they
tape.
him the chance to
to talk to you on the
technical ability to
do that. We didn't, we didn't demand that he do
anything.
WAYNE: You do have the technical ability.
DICK: We do now. We didn't then. And I --
that's what I did yesterday.
WAYNE: Oh, that's how you broke your
agreement yesterday.
° 40
DICK: You know, Wayne, let's go over it one
more time. See, I don't want to lose my patience,
okay? And I don't want you to either. Let's go over
it one more time. '
WAYNE: Well, let's not go over it one more
time.
DICK: Well, I'm responding to your question.
I went to, yesterday to the jail, and it was my hope
that I would be able to speak with Livingston Fagan. I
got right there --
WAYNE: Dick, I'm not going to go through
that again.
DICK: Well, obviously you didn't understand
it. So I want to clear it up for you.
WAYNE: No, obviously you just told me that
you do have the capability of --
DICK: We do now. And he, he exercised his
own right not to yesterday. It's as simple as that.
WAYNE: Well, if you have it now you could
have had it yesterday.
DICK: I did have it yesterday. That's what
I just told you. I went to the jail yesterday.
WAYNE: No, I'm saying when --
DICK: Yesterday.
WAYNE: -- Pagan was taken to the county
jail, you could have set up that capability right then
and there. That's
DICK: We --41
WAYNE: - what I'm talking about.
DICK: Well, that's incorrect. I just told
you technically at that time, because one of the tracks
took out the phone line, we didn't have that
capability. That's why I was out there, and that's why
Byron was out there talking to you through the
loudspeaker system.
WAYNE: I don't need that explanation. I saw
all of that.
DICK: Okay.
WAYNE: What I'm talking about is why didn't
you just tell Livingston to wait and then set up the
capability and tell him we're going to arrange for you
to make the phone call.
DICK: Because Livingston was not in the
frame of mind to do so. He told us that. And that's
why I went back to him yesterday hoping that he would
be in a better frame of mind that we could hook you up.
But he didn't chose to do that. I had to go through
his attorney to do that. And his attorney assured me
he would bring that to, to Livingston's
He went there, called me back
relayed the information through another
I was not then there. And he suggestedattention.
and again
agent, because
to me
i42
Livingston Fagan at this point in time did not want to
make a call in to you folks. Okay, that's what he told
me.
That's - his name is Brad Gates. Do you
know Mr. Gates? I don't know him personally, but I
know he's a local attorney here.
WAYNE: Yes, I know him.
DICK: Okay. And do you respect him?
WAYNE: Iim not going to give you something
that you can quote back to Mr. Gates --
DICK: Okay, well don't even answer. I mean
I'm not - I'm just asking you if, if you have - you
know him at any rate. I did ask the question. He did
give me the answer. The answer was that Mr. Livingston
Pagan did not wish to do that at this time.
WAYNE: Well, I think that's possible that he
might have said that.
DICK: It is. It is. It's completely true.
Are there other questions I can ask you about this --
or answer for you about this process? Of course we,
you know, we had your children down there. And you
know that. And your wife was, was satisfied with the
treatment that she had been given.
WAYNE: Has she seen all three of them?
DICK: My guess - remember I, I spoke the
other night that your other child was an hour's
43
distance, apparently had gone on an outing that day.
Has she seen them now? My guess is no. But I don't
know that for sure. Because obviously she's being held
as a material witness temporarily until we get this
situation resolved.
WAYNE: What situation?
DICK: What situation. iwhat have we been
talking about for 26 days? You folks in there and us
out here.
WAYNE: But that has nothing at all to do
with her. The agreement for her was that she come out
and give up.
DICK: Okay.
WAYNE: And then she would be allowed to see
her three children.
DICK: Okay. And I explained to her and to
you, and she was quite satisfied with that explanation
because it was truth. And she understood that the
child was off on an outing with, with the folks that
the child is staying with. we can check on, we can --
WAYNE: Well, I'm also a parent of that
child. And it -- K
DICK: Right.
WAYNE: - is not satisfactory with me. I
want her to see that third child. And I consider it a
broken agreement unless she does get to see it.
' 4 4
DICK: Wayne, listen. As soon as you folks
come out of there, you will have every ability to
ensure that that is done. Okay? But you and I know
that there's no reason to say things like this, because
it isn't going to help the matter. It's not going to
move the matter forward. And we can't accommodate all
those wishes until you folks are able to move on with
what we're doing.
WAYNE: It's an easy thing, Dick.
DICK: Why don't you put David on the line?
Let me speak directly with David, and we'll see if we
can move this thing along.
WAYNE: David doesn't want to talk to you.
DICK: Well, did you ask David that?
WAYNE: No, I did not.
DICK: Well, would you please do it as a
favor to me? Will you ask David if he would like to
speak to Dick, please?
WAYNE: Well, I'm afraid I'm not going to ask
him.
DICK: Really. Well, put Steve back on the
line for me if you will then please.
WAYNE: Would you like to speak to Steve?
DICK: Thank you.
WAYNE: Okay. Steve's not around.
DICK: Well, I'll tell you what. Put Louis
45
on for me, will you? Put Louis Anthony Aladays
phonetic sp.! on there. I'd like to speak to him,
because his parents are terribly concerned or his
mother is terribly concerned about him. And I want to,
I want to speak directly with him, please.
[989]
WAYNE: I'm giving it some thought. I'll
tell you what. Why don't we talk to Louis. And if he
decides he wants to talk to you, he can call you back.
DICK: That's fair enough.
WAYNE: Okay.
DICK: Wayne.
WAYNE: What?
DICK: How are we going to move on here?
You're a lawyer in there. You've got to do some
thinking for these folks in there. At least pass on to
them the knowledge that you have regarding this whole
issue.
Okay, you have probably a greater
understanding than anyone of the legal issues in there.
And, and you can certainly advise these folks that we
can work together and get this thing resolved. The
legal issues apparently are of, of some deep concern to
them as they should be. And you can explain-those
thing to them. I
And I hope you're doing, you know, the right
46
thing by those folks and not letting your, you know,
some, these issues cloud your ability to pass on the
actual, the actual law that you're aware of as it
relates to these issues.
WAYNE: Well, how do you expect a lawyer to
function with the kind of noise that's been bombarding
the building? Choppers flying at high speeds very
close to our building. I'm not getting any rest. How
do you expect me to function as a lawyer?
DICK: Come out and resolve it from this side
with a lot of other lawyers.
WAYNE: That's a different issue.
DICK: okay. But Wayne, who's controlling
this whole, this whole thing that's being done? We're
only here temporarily to resolve the issue, and then
I'm going home. Okay?
You come out. You resolve the issue. You
offer the facts that you have to the appropriate court
in the appropriate manner. You and the others in
there. The FBI will be happy to move our equipment.
We'll be happy to move our men. And we'll be happy to
go on with, to go on with, with our lives and our
business just as you'll be able to do.
You're the responsible party in this matter,
okay? You're out there. You need to come out of there
with the rest of the folks, and we'll get on with the,
with the business at hand. We --47
WAYNE: I'd like to discuss that proposal
with my lawyer.
DICK: Okay.
WAYNE: So please allow the lawyers that have
written letters to you saying they want to talk to
their clients inside this building to have immediate --
DICK: You have access --
WAYNE: -- telephone --
DICK: -- to them immediately upon leaving
that building. Immediately.
WAYNE: Well.
DICK: Okay?
WAYNE: That's where the, the legal
discussions have been stalemated for a
me.long time with
DICK: Well, the courts ruled, Wayne, that
the lawyers should not be given access
there in the compound. As soon as you
compound, you will have access to them
the Constitution.
WAYNE: Has anybody appealedto you folks out
leave the
as guaranteed by
that ruling?
DICK: Wayne, you know, you're -- it's
difficult to speak with you when you offer those kinds
of roadblocks, okay? You know and I know that you're
going to be coming out of there at some point in time.
48
WAYNE: No, we do not know that, Dick.
DICK: You don't know that?
WAYNE: No, we do not know that.
DICK: Well, you do know that.
WAYNE: See, you do not know my God.
DICK: Wayne.
WAYNE: It, it shows that indiscernible! --
DICK: Wayne, I have my own God. And please
don't --
WAYNE: - that you do not know my God.
DICK: -- please don't, don't get into that
issue. I have my own God. You listen to God in the
fashion in which you do. I will listen to God in the
fashion I do which is also a right that we both have,
all right?
WAYNE: Okay. _
DICK: Don't try to influence my judgment in
that area, nor will I try to influence yours, okay?
I've not tried to do that. All right? Let's talk
about the issues that we have to deal with here and
there in order to get this thing moved along. s,
that's what we need to do.
WAYNE: What you're saying is, is the l
isn't going to help me.
DICK: You know, I'm not saying that all.
WAYNE: And you're saying that I have
0, 4
other choice but to leave my home.
DICK: Temporarily,
telling you. You do not have
choice you have is as to what
We will ensure that all these
by the Constitution are adhered to as soon as you
leave the compound. That is where we begin
WAYNE: Okay. Now Dick --
DICK: We move into the system.that's exactly what
time that will be.
guarantees given to49
I'm
a choice. The only
Okay?
you
folks
WAYNE: -- you know, you know well, I'm
not sure that you do. Are you a lawyer?
DICK: No, I'm not a lawyer, Wayne
WAYNE: Okay. Well, what I'm, what I'm
trying to say I'm not, I'm not trying to
discriminate. I'm not, I'm not saying that
sophisticated
to say is --
[QEP]
DICK: I'm listening.lawyers are
or anything like that. What I'm trying
WAYNE: That noise out there distracted me to
the point where I lost my thought.
DICK: Okay. Well, I'll give you
recompose yourself.
WAYNE: I appreciate that. Let's
A DICK: You were, you were talking
lawyers and that sort of thing and how somea minute to
see.
about
lawyers
aren't terribly sophisticated and some are. Do
know this fellow by the name of DeGuerin? Dick
Decuerin? Are you familiar with him?
WAYNE: Yeah, I, I read all about his
of Mr. Deeds phonetic sp.!.
DICK: Okay. well, he's one of those
that is willing to represent you and apparently50
you
trial
folks
has
been retained by David's mother to, to represent David.
WAYNE: I've talked to some people about Mr.
DeGuerin. But the problem I have with Mr. DeGuerin is
he hasn't gone into the federal courts and filed any
lawsuits on our behalf. He hasn't appealed any
these rulings by the federal judge.
DICK: Well, he has made some --
WAYNE: I don't, I don't see how he's
his fee. I really don't.of
earning
DICK: Well, I'm not sure he's charging
anybody anything now. My guess is that this --
WAYNE: It doesn't --
DICK: -- thing will move forward when you
folks leave --
WAYNE: -- it doesn't matter if he's charged
anyone. Does he have a contract that charges anyone?
DICK:_ Wayne, let's talk about the
substantive issue. Now you, you mentioned minutes ago
was I a lawyer. You must have had some thought in mind
O O
51
about why you asked me that.
WAYNE: I did. '
DICK: Okay. It will come to you I'm sure.
WAYNE: Yes, I'm, I'm sure it will.
DICK: Wayne, can I talk very frankly with
you? Very frankly?
WAYNE: I'm listening.
DICK: Okay, You know that when you folks
come out of there you'll be treated very well. You
know that you'll have access to the press. You know
that you'll have an attorney appointed for you if you
cannot afford one. You know that no statements will be
taken from you unless you voluntarily give them. You
know that ultimately we have to do a crime scene search
out there. You know a lot of the things that will
follow. You and I both know that. And to, to accept
any other course of action you know is just begging the
question. You and I both know that will be done. That
has to be done.
You're an attorney. You've represented many
clients I understand in court. You know what the court
procedures are. And you can pass them on to those
folks out there.
WAYNE: I don't want to do a disservice to
the people I have by giving them misinformation. It's
not the way I normally practice as, as an inmate in a
52
concentration camp. You know, I've got less legal
rights than prisoners of war?
DICK: Wayne, listen. You know and I know
and everyone else knows out here that you have
guaranteed rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
You've exercised those rights in the past. You will
continue to exercise those rights in the future. No
one is going to take those from you. You know that. I
know that. You have to ensure that the rest of the
folks in there know that also. Help them out.
WAYNE: Well, then answer me another
question. Why is the FBI operating in secrecy?
DICK:
what you mean by
do that.
WAYNE:
told our side of
to --
DICK:
of the story? I
WAYNE:
No.
DICK:
WAYNE:
story. Now alsoYou know, I even hesitate to ask you
that. But I'm going to go ahead and
Well, I mean the, the media is not
the story. The media is not allowed
Do you want me to tell them your side
don't know what it is.
No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no.
Okay.
No. We want to tell our side of the
the media is kept so far away from,
from where we are that they would not be able to1
53
observe whether we're, we're just murdered as we come
out this door at all. .
DICK: Wayne, please, please don't even
suggest that because --
WAYNE: I'm suggesting that because it can
happen. It's possible, and you know it could happen.
And, and we want observers who are not part of the
government.
DICK: Okay. We'll guarantee that. That,
that can be done.
WAYNE: But we, we want observers that we can
pick and choose.
DICK: Well, you know what? We asked you for
those kinds of names back in probably day 2. And I
don't know if we ever got an answer to that. So why
don't you get a list of those people together for me.
WAYNE: Well, didn't we just ask for --
DICK: And we'll move on.
WAYNE: - Ron Engleman?
DICK: You want Ron Engleman to be here as
part of the press contingent? Is that what you're
saying? Because I'm sure we can handle that.
WAYNE: I think the banner says we want to,
we want to meet with Ron Engleman.
DICK: As soon as, as soon as you come out
that will be allowed.
v_A_
' WAYNE: Sighing!54
DICK: Wayne, I'm not giving you too much
credit now for, for understanding what I'm telling you.
I mean, I mean it seems to me like you're trying to
pass on some of this stuff.
End of tape 160.!