Waco FBI Transcripts Tapes 206 - 207 Part 61

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #206
4/10/93
7:23 P.M.  9:07 P.M.

 Tape 206
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- people. I'd really do
that. I'd come out just for you. But, the whole thing
is I can't -- what it comes down to is --
DEK: But you don't like me enough to do
that, right?
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
letter?
DEK:
STEVESCHNEIDER:
To let your
SCHNEIDER:
Yes.
SCHNEIDER:Dek, you know that --
-- letter, that first
That is what my life
revolves around these days. There's a God that I
honestly do fear, that he's going to bring about
-- what did you think about that last part about
DEK: Ah --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It said I've got the
I've got a letter, a copy of it. It says you're
rejecting a man but -- no, excuse me. Wrong side-- do
Waco?
DOC
Here it is. It says here, learn from David my seals
or, as you have said, bear the consequences. I
forewarn you. The, the Lake Waco area of old Mount
Carmel will be terribly shaken. Talking about an
earthquake. I heard that yesterday there was a minor
one in Austin.
DEK: Oh, well, I checked it --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is that true or not?
DEK: Steve, no, it's not true.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DEK: It wasn't in Austin. And --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Where was it?
DEX: In -- somebody said San Antonio, and I
checked there, and it was about 100 and some miles
south of San Antonio.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, it was. Okay. I don
know. I mean, I --
DEK: And it wasn't even felt in San Antonio
in -- or Austin. And, you know, Lake Waco, of course,
the Army Corps of Engineers, you know, built that and
they were aware of the substructure, I believe, the
geological substructure when they built that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They were? Okay. I don't
know much -- "
DEK: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- about it, personally.
DEX; But, I mean, that's not to say it won
happen. But I'm not going to worry about it, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, but - I mean, if a gu
can tell you ahead and he says the waters --
DEK: If I get con--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- of the lake will be --
DEK= -- if it -- if I'm standing down there3
t
t
Y

4
fishing below the spillway and the dam gives way and
washed me away --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but what about the
rest?
DEK: -- and I drown, so what?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What about those that
are --
DEK: Life's going to go on.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. This guy doesn't --
Dave has never, never been the type that gives
anything, unless it's clear and so and it happens.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I could give you a number
of instances when I first met him - because anyone
that claims to have divine inspiration - I mean,
there's a lot of tests in the giblg to check him out,
and I've never met a human being that even has made the
first test. So, when I ran into him, I thought I was
going to nail him to the wall like I had all the other
so-called professed prophets or gurus or Christs or
whatever else they might think they are. But when a
person can consistently go back and show clearly what
the information is, which he's done -
DEX: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, anyway, I mean, that's
why right now I'm still waiting myself. I have -- I

I
5
believe it's being formulated and shown as to what's
going on and -- I mean, it could happen any day. I'm
talking about coming out. It could be - I mean, who
even said it's got to be, you know, after the Passover?
We never said that. I never even said that --
DEK:I think your attorneys probably got
that from you guys.
STEVE
DEK:
know, that's --
STEVE
see, but we --
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:SCHNEIDER: No, Dek. But they did--
I wasn't privy to it, but I -- you
SCHNEIDER: They asked us about it, you
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: -- never, we never have --
I know. But never --
SCHNEIDER: -- relayed it --
I tell you one --
SCHNEIDER: - the time element.
-- thing. In the long number of days
that I've been here, we have never gotten a commitment
from you guys --
STEVE
DEX:SCHNEIDER: That's true.
-- as to when you all are coming out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is true, because --
DEX:
STEVEAnd --
SCHNEIDER: Like even I told you --

6
remember, Dek, I told you, I told you the truth, that
they did a-- honestly ask David a little - almost 10
days ago when they were both there on that Thursday, a
week ago from this last Thursday, I do remember them
sitting there and they asked about a commitment of
time. And that's when David says - they says could
you ask your God for us? And he says I will. And he
was not kidding. He was serious. And he did, and he
called me in. He said he asked a couple times-and the
answer was: wait. Or, like the - huh?
DEK: Yeah. Yeah. I've heard all that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I, I know, I know.
But, see, it's been like that long before this incident
ever happened February 28th. I've been with the guy
now for six-anda-half years.
DEX: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, anyway, I just wanted
to check in with you. I was going to call to see if
you got the letter.
DEK: Well, the phone seems -- or it sounds
- you sound louder than ever before, really. You have
a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I do? Good.
DEK: -- very good connection.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know if that's good
or bad.

DEK:
that was -- you
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DEK:
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
put that line --
against the wall. So, it's7
There's no static or whatever it is
know, it was like breaking off --
Well, what we did --
-- the other day when we thought --
-- was we actually -- we
like tacked it as much as possible
real straight, solid, and,
you know, it's not moving or anything like that. And
looked it over about two or three more times. And,
hopefully, there won't be any more problems.
DEK: Good. Good
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I must -- it was kind of
a strange thing to get up and pick up the phone that's
deader than a doornail.
DEX: Yeah. I --
talking and it went dead --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DEK: -- early on
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DEK:
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
it was working and -- hello
DEK: Yeah. Then
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DEX: Well, we're
STEVE SCHNEIDER:well, you know, we were
Right. Yeah.
yesterday afternoon --
I remember. Remember --
-- Right, right.
-- you were saying how good
hello?
it was dead. Right.
Yeah. Right.
here, Steve. You know --
Right.

DER:
evening.
STEVE
DEK:
as well as I --
STEVE
over that sharp
it?
DEK:8
You know, you can still come out this
Give me a call and --
SCHNEIDER: Well, I thank you for that.
-- we'll work it on out. And you know
SCHNEIDER: I don't want to be tripping
-- what is it? What kind of fence is
Oh, the -- it's -- I don't know if they
call it concertina wire or --
STEVE
DEX:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:SCHNEIDER: Well, that's --
-- razor wire.
SCHNEIDER: -- that's what it must be.
Yeah. It's --
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
-- pretty sharp. well, there's a
pathway. You can come out. Apparently, from what has
been des-- how it's been described to me, is you can
walk on out to,
STEVE
follow --
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
call you first.to the road.
SCHNEIDER: Right. And turn left and
But call first.
SCHNEIDER: -- the yellow brick road.
Be sure and call me first.
SCHNEIDER: Oh, I'd want to definitely

9
DER: Right. And then just walk on out in --
hand in a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't want any
distractions made so -- be --
doing
thing
think
their
time.
SO, IDEK: -- two by two, hand in hand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Huh?
DEK: Come out two by two, hand in hand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Here I thought we were
real well. Here I'm talking to you. The next
I know, they all called me and told me, Steve, I
you're supposed to go out there. They're revving
motors. They've been sitting there for a long
And, and I couldn't --
DEK: Yes --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- get back on the phone.
go out there, and kaboom, kaboom and --
DEK: Yesterday? Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I'm still looking at
him, you mean - you know, I mean, if they were ~-
DEK: Is your hearing all right or is it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. My hearing
didn't bother me even then at all.
DEK: Oh. Well, that's fortunate.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is. It's really

10
strange. But, I don't know, it did not bother me. I
was more disappointed in what was happening there.
DEK: Yeah. Is that Judy singing or is that
noise?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's Judy singing. She's
singing about her finger. Her -- we've got --
DEK: Your - -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- we've got an alley cat
that --
DEK: That's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- got in here and --
DEK: That's the noise, right, Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that's, that's -- if
you want to call it that.
DEK: Well, I can hear it in the -- I hear
something in the background and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Some people think that's
sacred music.
DEK: Oh, I don't know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's, that's - if you've
ever been to Jerusalem, you hear that even at --
DEK: No, I haven't.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- 3 in the morning.
DEK: Oh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We've got Pablo --
DEK: That's Musl-- is that Muslim or --

ll
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's Muslim.
DEK: Is it? Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's -- yeah, it's
Muslim. Anyway, we've got Pablo Cohen here. He's from
Jerusalem. And he feels like he's at home now.
DEK: Well, that -- didn't they send a
package in for him?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. They -- oh, and,
yeah, he wants to thank you for that too.
DEK: Oh. Tell him he's welcome.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's from Mama, back
there in --
DEK: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Jerusalem.
DEX: Yeah, from the, the old country.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: The old country. And, boy,
it is --
DEK: That's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Old, too. It's
definitely a third-world country.
DEK: Yeah. Steve, could you do me a favor
and check on that -- whatever that target -- or
whatever it was that was in the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Is it still there?
DEK: -- window for me? I don't know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm just -- let me -- hang

12
on. I'm, I'm going to ask someone to do that just now.
Just hang on.
DEK: Okay.
STEVE TO UNKNOWN PERSON: Would you go do me
a favor? Go run up the stairs somewhere and it's --
they think there someone who's got a target or a face,
you know, like at target practice, kind of a target, in
the window. Would you check around?  Indiscernible!
got what there. Find out if you can there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, they're looking now.
DEK: Oh, okay. Thanks. I appreciate it.
Just to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I mean, we're not --
you know, I hope you know I had a -- we don't -- you
know, honestly, I -- you know, when I, when I --
DEK: Caused some concern with those guys in
black out there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- get those kind of calls,
I -- it's actually -- it's almost like embarrassing,
because nobody here -- you know - in fact, I think
Byron told me that somebody once flipped the finger
from here. I mean, that would make it --
DEK= Yeah. He mentioned that to me this
afternoon when I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
DEK: -- I was coming in and, and I asked him

O I
13
how the day went. And he said that -- something to the
effect that you had indic-~ he had indicated to you
that someone had flipped him off --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. He - what he said
was -- I brought it up because yesterday, before he
went out there with the distraction grenade thing, what
had happened was a guy dressed in black that was in the
Bradley closest to the building laying the wire, there
was a couple of young girls looking out. There was a
couple people looking out and he flipped them a finger,
and they all came and reported it to me. Well, I was
extremely disappointed, because I think -- well, I
don't remember if it was you -- I had told someone
about how happy I was that this guy Tom, who is one of
your agents, you know, what -~ how courteous and decent
he is.
DEK: Is he the phone man or was he one of
the guys in --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I have no idea.
DEK: -- black or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He was dressed in black.
And then the guy that actually threw the distraction
grenade at me was dressed in green -- I think he was in
camouflage fatigues.
DEK: Um-hum. Well, you know, Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But they were both, they

14
were both in the same Bradley.
DEK: Well, there - you know, there are
hundreds of people -- guys coming in and out of here
and they are different personalities and temperaments
and so on --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I understand.
DEX: -- I'm sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I understand.
DEX: Are, are you going to -- you don't plan
on using any more smoke bombs, or whatever they are,
for --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. No, in fact --
DEK: -- for anything?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that was for that day.
That's it.
DEK: Okay. Just for --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know.
DEK: -- that holy day?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DEK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That was it.
DEX: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And that's why I even
mentioned it ahead of time to them.
DEK: Okay. Good. Good. .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, I forgot, I can't

O Q
15
even remember what was all said about it, but --
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE
yeah.
DEK:
STEVE
no pizza yet, but --SCHNEIDER: -- you know, I mean --
How's the food holding up?
SCHNEIDER: The food's okay. There's
DEK: No pi-- well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Byron says he's going to
take me out for that. I think I got --
DEK: It's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- a couple offers there
HOW .
DEK: -- it's available, you know. We had
pizza the other night up here, and we saved two pieces
and you never came out --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, have a --
DEK: -- and it got
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I
you and I can just impress on
coming out that they can send
Wisconsin, from
DEK: Oh. Oh.
STEVE
DEK:
STEVEcold.
tell you what, maybe if
the Government when I'm
one down from Madison,
SCHNEIDER: -- Pies On  phonetic!.
Thick pie pizza or deep-dish --
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but it --

DEX:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
Italian.
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
of cheese
STEVE16
-- pizza?
SCHNEIDER: Ha, ha.
Italian? No Italian?
SCHNEIDER: No, no, it's definitely
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: It's the best in the world.
with Wisconsin cheese on it, no doubt?
SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. You know that.
Sure. Sure. Yeah, they've got a lot
up there.
SCHNEIDER: Well, they're looking right
now for the target. So far I ~- they're - I'm having
a guy here standing nearby and they haven't found
anything yet.
DEK:
other night and
STEVE
believe --
DEK:Okay. Yeah. That -- we had pizza the
someone just --
SCHNEIDER: Well, you wouldn't
- someone waved to me and, and said to
tempt you. We had a steak this afternoon for lunch.
STEVE
care of you guys
DEK:
STEVESCHNEIDER: Well, they're taking good
Steak and potato and salad.
SCHNEIDER: I don't suppose there's any
chance right now  I do have a - I've, I've gone to

17
college. I've got my degrees. I don't suppose there
is any chance from coming right from here and joining
the FBI, is there? Ha, ha, ha.
DEK: We've got
we'll have an application
STEVE SCHNEIDER
DEK: - at the
STEVE SCHNEIDER
DEK: -- end of
STEVE
Dek.
DEK: I'll tell
STEVE
DEK: -- you'veSCHNEIDER:
SCHNEIDER:an application. We'll have,
out here --
Maybe I could be a --
end, at the --
-- negotiator.
the road out there.
Maybe I could help you out,
you, you've got --
I don't know.
got the gift of gab, there's
no doubt about that. Because --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, if nothing else, to
put someone to sleep.
DEK: I've been listening to you for --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Or irritate a person, I
know.
DEK: -- for many days and many nights, for
quite awhile now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know.
DEX:  Indiscernible! --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I feel s-- I do feel for
you. I really do.

18
DEK: Well, you should have one of these
small churches around here, out in California or
Hawaii, and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They have a what?
DEK: I said you should have one of these
small churches out in Hawaii or California of your
OWT1 '-
chaplains.
truth, I,STEVE SCHNEIDER; Do they have any in jail?
DEX: Oh. Well, I'm sure they've got
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I -- tell you the
I don't know what's going to happen.
DEK: Or a radio program.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I'm coming, I'm
coming out to go through the system. I have hopes, but
who know.
preachers.
know they
that. I,
left. In
away fromWhoever knows.
DER: One of these, you know, radio
You could have done that very well. And I
ve got ministries in, you know, in these --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well --
DEK: I hate to see  Indiscernible! --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:  my answers go way beyond
I don't believe there's that kind of time
honesty, I really don't. But --
DEK: Oh, Steve, come on. You got to get
that doomsday --

19
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What --
DEK: ~- stuff.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. I mean, you
don't know what I know. I mean, it -- I can understand
from your perspective. I'd be saying the same exact
thing. But until you've walked in my shoes, until you
have had opportunity to see the same things, you have
nothing to judge by --
DER: No, but you can't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - other than by what your
religious ex~-
DEK= -- judge me because what I've
experienced --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Other than what your
religious experience is and what you've observed in
your life, which I would agree with you. The way
religion is nowadays, I'll be honest with you, if this
isn't it for me, I'm not in anything. I'm not going to
worry about absolutely anything. I'll just do the best
I can and get what I can out of this crazy world, and
that's it. But as far as religion, I've studied them
all. There's always new groups coming up here and
there. There was a church years ago out in California
called the Church of the Volleyball.
DEK: Church of the Volleyball?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure. You know, tax

20
exemption. "
DEK: Yeah. Well, you've heard of --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But --
DEK: -- Robert Shuller. He's got a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure I've heard of Robert
Shuller.
DEK: -- in Garden Grove. He's got a prison
ministry, I believe.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: A prison ministry?
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is he going to help me out?
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I wonder if he could help
me with the seven seals right now.
DEK: Well, I don't know. Let's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I kind of -- I --
DEK: -- let's not get into the seven seals.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; No, no. But I've got my
doubts, don't you? I wonder if he can show me where
the second, third, and fourth ones are located in his
EQLJ.-.2?
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, it's not a hard
thing to do, mind you. I mean, that's an easy task. I
can show you. It's been shown to me. But can anybody
else in the world? That's the test. In the final

21
days. You and I are here finally. 6,000 years.
That's long enough to do it man's way, don't you think?
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Dek, don't you want to go
on to better things other than having to sleep and have
stomach aches and not knowing what's going to happen to
your -- do you have children?
DEK: Certainly. Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what I mean.
Who knows what's going to happen to them? They'll get
AIDS. Maybe they'll get involved in this or that car
accident. Maybe they will turn into homosexuals. I
mean, wow. who knows anything for sure anymore?
DEK: Who knows. Yeah, you, you, you do the
best you can as --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: An uncertain place, this
world. One thing is ~-
DEK: You do the best you can as a parent
and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, sure you do the best
you can. But if there's a truth being offered to you
and it may -- and it's sensible, look at it. Weigh it
over.
DEX: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: This isn't going to - you
-- I can't imagine you think this is going to go on

22
forever. Man's destroying his own environment.
DEX: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Population explosion. Even
with man's planned genocide and all the rest --
DEK: Well, I think man's -- I think we're
becoming more and more, you know, aware of the fragile
environment. I think a lot of steps are being taken in
the corre- in the right direction.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think it's past. I think
it's beyond man's correction.
DEK: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think we've de-
DEK: - 100 years from now we'll -~ they'll
be, they'll be still, you know, cranking out petroleum
and so on and so forth and 
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's true. I
believe they will be cranking it out, and the Earth is
going to become more and more polluted. But ~- well,
anyway, I've got -- I see a plan that
going to work. It's a way out of all
it comes to it's final end.
DEX: Yeah. Your -- do you
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Don't you
day it will, though?
DEK: Certainly the world's
I'm not worried about it.I believe is
of this, before
think --
believe that some
going to end, but

23
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, no, but what if, what
if you found out facts? What if you and I were in a
chalet in Switzerland and somebody comes up and says
you're going to be buried by an avalanche. Wouldn't
you want to know about it and get
DEK: Maybe, maybe not
know
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wel lout of the chalet?
. Who knows? You
, then you're --
DEK: -- I, I wouldn't worry about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- telling me life isn't
that great big of a deal to you
DEX: Certainly it is
sit here worrying about when it
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wel
when it's going to end, and it,
of evidence, don't you think it
and a verdict?
DEK: I -- Steve
doomsday philosophy and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
heard it, because --
DEX: I've --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:1
¢
1It is to me.
But I don't, I don't
s going to end.
, if it's told to you
it's based by a weight
takes and demands time
, I just don't accept your
Well, you haven't really
-- we've jumped around and
talked about it. But if you ever gave yourself an
honest opportunity, you might be surprised. I'm still
waiting -- oh, by the way, he's back.

you got?24
DEK: Oh, okay. Thanks.
STEVE TO UNKNOWN PERSON: Okay. What have
UNKNOWN PERSON TO STEVE:  Indiscernible!
want to know exactly where the  indiscernible!.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said they're - he --
they, they know - need to know - they checked all
over and there's no such thing. The only thing is,
there is some underwear hanging in the window.
where it iDEK: Oh-oh. Underwear, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Could it be that?
DEK: Where - do you - can you tell me
S?
STEVE TO UNKNOWN PERSON: Where is it?
UNKNOWN PERSON TO STEVE: On the --
 indiscernible! over the door, the door --
floor?
and he thi
possible?STEVE TO UNKNOWN PERSON: Is it on the second
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's on the second floor
nks it's over the front door. Could that be
DEK: Second floor, front door?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Over the front door.
DEK: Okay. I'll -- what I'm going to have
to do, Steve, is find out exactly where --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, do so, because, you

know, it could make --
DEK: - from this end --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- it a
Because I know kids will color like
coloring book and send -- even long
know, they do things like that, and
window and all that kind of thing.25
lot easier.
pictures from a
before this. You
paste them in the
DEK: Well, someone just handed me a note and
said it's up in the tower.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In the tower?
DEX: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: On the  what, on the top
floor, the top windows?
DEX; Yes.
STEVE TO UNKNOWN PERSON:
floor.Its in the top
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is it still there?
DEK: As far as I know.
STEVE TO UNKNOWN PERSON:
way up in the, in the tower.Go check it. It's
DEX: It's like a female target, you know.
STEVE TO UNKNOWN PERSON: A female target he
says it looks like.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. He's, he's going up
to take a look himself.
DEK: Okay. Somebody's getting a lot of

N
26
exercise, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, they like it.
DEK: Is that David running around?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
DEK: Is that David running around -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, no.
DEX: -- getting the exercise or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He, he --
DEX: - how's he doing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- he's trying to get some.
He's doing a lot better, by the way.
DEX: Is he limping or sta--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he's still limping,
but he's, he's definitely becoming much healthier.
He's not weak like he was a week ago. He --
DEK: He'll, he'll be able to walk out then,
right? 
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, positively. I'm sure
he will.
DEX: Right. Right. 
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm sure he will. He's -~
it's healing real good. And what else can I tell you
about it? Oh, he started taking -- they found some
iron. Somebody had a couple bottles. And I can't
remember the kind, the kind it is, but it's been
working like, you know, like you wouldn't believe.

27
DEK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It has. He's been taking
it every day, morning, noon, and night. And he's like
recovered a lot of strength and energy. But, boy, he
could hardly -- I mean, a week ago, it, it was like
talking to a total zombie.
DEK: Yeah. That'll probably boost his red
blood cell count some and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Apparently so.
DEK: -- probably give him constipation, on
the other hand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. He -- I think he
don't mind after ha-- being so listless and no energy,
can't move, and couldn't hardly keep his eyeballs open.
DEK: Yeah. How, how's Judy's finger?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not good at all. The bone
fragments are starting to come through the skin itself.
DEX: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And she's actually been
pulling them out through the skin. I've never heard of
such a thing, but --
DEK: Well, see, that all had -- probably
needed to be surgically cleaned out and reconstructed.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm sure. I'm sure it
would. And, in fact, even -- it's even giving her pain
right now.

DEX:
STEVE
well, she fears
DEX:
you.
STEVE
DEK:
finger.
STEVE
appreciate you.
DEK:
finger.
STEVE28
Get her out of there, Steve.
SCHNEIDER: I can't force her. She --
God more than she does her finger.
Ah, well, I'm not going to argue with
SCHNEIDER: I mean, I really do like --
Maybe she fears David more than her
SCHNEIDER: ~ you guys, and I, I
Huh?
Maybe she fears David more than her
SCHNEIDER: Not at all. I - if you
only knew. I mean, I know from your perspective you
wonder about this, you wonder about that. It's not
like all the different scenarios that have been laid
out to the press. It's not like that at all. The
guy's very down-toearth. You can say what you want.
You can challenge him. You can tell him to take a
hike. Seriously. I mean, you know, just -- it all
comes down to -- you know, you're free to walk out this
door any time you want. If you want to stay here and
listen you can, or share. If you think you have
something, he'll sit and listen. But, you know, a
person -- we're
openminded.in - we're very open, extremely

29
DEK: well, you know, Steve, Judy's finger
deteriorating like that is -- it's, it's certainly
unrealistic to let that go on. It's, it's not healthy.
You know, just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, she definitely
doesn't like it.
DEK: But she doesn't want to resol- get it
- get her finger healed or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: She doesn't want to be
separated from Mayanah, for sure not.
DEK: She can bring Mayanah --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And --
DEK: -- out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know she can bring
her out. But like Kathy Schroeder, has she got little
Brian with her all the time? Where is Brian? And -- I
mean, she's definitely in jail. Where's Brian --
DEK: Yeah, I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Brian?
DEK: I can say I honestly don't know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: See, that's the whole
thing.
DEK: I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Judy is more -- I mean, as
attached as Judy is -- you know, Judy's older, like I
am, and it was - it's been latent years. We tried to

30
have a child for the last number of years, and finally.
So, I mean, she's extremely attached.
DEK: Well, let's see. Well, how olds
Mayanah? Two years or three?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, she's two.
DEK: TWO.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DEK: Yeah, well, see, I think Judy had even
given John Cox some messages for her parents who had
sent in messages to us and there was a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, she's concerned about
her --
DEK: - exchange there of messages, and Judy
indicated that, that, you know, they would --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Doesn't --
DEK: -- take care of Mayanah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, she doesn't -- her
mother is so lax when it comes to being consistent with
 in fact, her mother's not into discipline. Her
mother's into feeding children chocolate candies,
letting them watch TV, anything. We're not -- see,
we're not into that kind of thing. We're just not.
They have hyperactive children that are not guided and
directed and, and learning and - the - they play a
lot here, by the way. There's not a lot of pressure
put on them. They have a lot of room to breathe, to

31
create and so forth. But at the same time, they're not
free to run loose and jump on furniture. They're told
very firmly, never yelled at.
DEK: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And they're always warned
that they could get a spanking, and it's never with
one's hand. It's never violent, contrary to one or two
people that have spoken against -
DER: Yeah, we've heard other things too, as
you well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, no, but you'll find --
DEK: -- can imagine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, honestly, if you
talk to the social workers, I really believe -- I mean,
they gave a honest and good report. It was very -- and
it -- that's the way it's been. The first thing that
ever impressed me about the group, I can honestly tell
you that, is David's way of handling children, and
those others that belonged in and were with the group
at that time when I came to check him out. And it's
never changed. The only time I've ever known of a
child that had their butt beat good was by Robyn Bunds,
who's out in California, and she did that herself. And
everybody got on her and said what is the matter with
you? I mean, they really -- I remember the incident.
I, I came in after that. But I can even remember the

32
very time. It stands out in everybody's mind, because
it was, it was a bad thing.
DEX: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, anyway, I -- you know,
not to get off -- I'm still -- oh, here he is. He's
back.
DEK: What's the deal on the target?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's back here now.
UNKNOWN PERSON TO STEVE:  Indiscernible!
he's got short hair.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. The target was a
young man sitting in front of the window eating his
meal, and he's not a female.
DEK: Oh. Is he still there?
STEVE TO UNKNOWN PERSON: Is he still there?
UNKNOWN PERSON TO STEVE: He was when I went
up.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He was up there when he
still went up there, I guess. Could that be it?
DEK: I don't know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't see how that could
be it, if you said it was a picture. That's weird.
DEK: A young man eating l-- eating?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he was eating. I
just finished myself about, oh, I don't know, 20
minutes, half-hour ago.

33
DEK: All right. Well, I'm going to have to
check with our --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, if you -- I mean, if
you saw him, you, you can --
DEK: -- people out there among the Bradleys
and all. .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DEK: That --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let me know and, you know
-- I mean, I dont know how it could be that, you know,
it could be in one way a picture or a target and on the
other hand, you know, so -- but, as you describe it,
not -- it, it seemed like toward the end you were
saying a female or something.
DEK: well, that -- you know, maybe those
guys were hoping it was a female standing in the
window.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Maybe so.
DEK: You know, they've been out there a long
time, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's true. And maybe it
was a odd day today. I don't know.
DEK: Right. But, anyway, you say it was a
young man or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DEK: -- your - you get a report it was a

34
young man --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Positively.
DEK: -- eating? So, it's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Positively.
DEK: -- not going to be up there after we
hang up and I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
DEK: In other words, he's not going to be
there later?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I doubt it. You know, I
mean, if you guys watch, you always notice someone
looks out the window. It's been that way since even
before February 28th.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And we've always - even
before you asked us, honestly, we've never pointed any
guns or any arms ever out the window. We don't do that
kind of thing, Dek. Number one, we like people. I
mean, no one wants to see one's life lost. How can you
reach a person's mind if they're not here?
DEK: Yeah. Steve, don't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, as long as a
person's living, they can make decisions. There's no
one that we hate in this whole world. I'm telling you.
You're going to find that to be true. I've gotten
aggravated because of maybe a lack of sleep and so

35
forth, but the, the bottom line is I'll apologize.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And even to John, you can
send my apologies to him because --
DEK: Oh, he, he indicated it was a little
self-serving, that reaming out that you gave him last
night, that maybe that was satisfying your
frustration --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's got --
DEK: -- or something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. He's got --
there's a point to that. He -- there's no question
about it. He was on the other end there and I was
definitely annoyed because, I mean, after -- I was
extremely disappointed and I was trying to tell him
what took place, and apparently he didn't want to hear
about it. I don't know.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, anyway, there was the
whole thing about flipping the finger, then the
distraction grenades. It was, it was all that
business.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then the threat that
came right on top of it. I mean, those three things
together -- and, I mean, it was a long day. When you

O O
36
get all these people on you morning, noon, and night
and so forth, it's, it's nice to take a breather once
in awhile.
DEK: Well, come on out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'd get a long one,
wouldn't I?
DEK: You -- well, I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I'm coming -- look'it,
1 -_
DEK: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know that  you'll
know for --
DEK: Steve, I don't know what - you know, I
don't know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It never -- you know, me
coming out --
DEK: On the legal end, I don't know what
type of, you know, legal -- you know, what's the word
I'm looking for? What you're going to face.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know that.
DEX: You know, that's all up to the
attorneys.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly. That --
DEK: That's up to your attorney, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. That doesn't bother
me.

37
DEK: The United States Attorney's Office --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's not impeding my
coming out, because of the system or what could, could
happen.
DEK: Oh, I think there's a certain amount of
fear there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not real-- I'll be honest
with you. Not, not fear so much as -- well, just -- I
mean, I know I've got ex-- I mean, it's extensive.
DEK: It's fear of the unknown.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure -- well, no. I mean,
I - it's got -- it -- what's going to be is going to
be anyway. But one thing I've got to make sure is, I
mean, I've spent six-and-a-half years of my life here.
I mean, that's a lot of time. And in the process, I've
seen things I've not been able to controvert, so that's
where my first and main interest is. That's the
priority. And I believe that it's -- you know, the
answer is coming and, and that it's going to be here.
I, I already know -- signs of it are, are already --
like we're saying and talking about here have taken
place. So, and I know David himself - it's, it's not
a game. Contrary to what you people think, it's not
some kind of a game. He talks about coming out himself
all the time.
DEK: Yeah, I don't look at it as a game, you

know.
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE38
SCHNEIDER: I know you don't.
I'm, I'm --
SCHNEIDER: I know you don't. But, I
mean, it's perceived and given out over the airwaves as
we're, we're up to some kind of who-know's-what and --
no, that's why we don't honestly want to give a time,
because his God
fact, you know,
been, Dek, that
out, we, all of
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DER:
STEVEtold him to wait. So, that's -- and in
one of the greatest puzzles to me has
March 2nd, when he said he was coming
us here, thought we were.
Well, we thought you were too --
SCHNEIDER: I know. And I --
-- and we're still waiting. That's --
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know.
-- the only problem.
SCHNEIDER; I know.
We're still waiting.
SCHNEIDER: And I'm telling you, you
know, it was even a surprise to him and myself. It
was. It was -- I was ready -- I, I kept on coming back
to him about four, five, six times --
DEK:
STEVE
was watching --Um-hum.
SCHNEIDER: -- that very day, because I
I had a watch on. I was looking at the
time and, and he was off by himself there or laying on

39
the -- on - in fact, he never got on the stretcher.
He was laying next to it. we wanted to move him over
to that, and he starts praying and -- so, we left, came
back in 10 minutes, he's still praying. Left, came
back, and so --
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
question.
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
Not even in the
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:Steve?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
Let me ask, let me ask you a personal
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
Are you afraid to leave David?
SCHNEIDER: No, I'm not. Not at all.
least.
You're not afraid to leave David?
SCHNEIDER: No.
Okay. Here's the deal. I'll check and
see if that target is still wherever they say it is.
STEVE
DEX:SCHNEIDER: Okay.
And you go get Judy and Mayanah, and
I'll order a pizza. You want Dominos or what? And
I'll --
STEVE
DEK:
road out there.SCHNEIDER: Oh --
-- I'll meet you out at the end of the
What time tonight?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Dek, unreal.
DEK: No, I'm serious.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: Haven't you heard of --
DEK: I would --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you're serious.
DEX: I would drop the phone and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you're serious.
DEK: -- run out there, you
you out there.know, to greet
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll be out there soon
enough. I'll be out --
DEX: Well, give me a time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- my carcass will be out
there.
DEK: Can you gi-- this month?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I sure hope so.
DEK: This week or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I hope
DEK: Okay. All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm serious. I went --this week.
anxious for things to wind down myself. I really am.
But the whole thing is -- again, you know, and I'm
going to have to give you -- what I'm
is have to write a letter and send it
look at it, and then you can react to
DEK: well, wait -- hold on
asking me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All rightgoing to do yet
out so you can
it.
Somebody'sI'm

41
DEK: - about Judy's finger --
srsvz SCHNEIDER: All right.
DEK: - here. Hold on just a minute, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DEK: Steve, that, that's Judy's right hand,
right finger?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right index finger.
DEK: Yeah, becau- I, I was trying to
remember the video.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
DEK: So, she's obviously left-handed?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uh - she's right-handed.
DEK: She's writing with her right hand?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes, she is. She -- her
finger - she's kind of made her own splint.
DEK: Oh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, the finger is like
pointing straight forward and she's grabbing the pencil
with the middle finger --
DEK: Oh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and the thumb.
DEK: Well, I just -- someone said -- asked
about her finger, how is she writing, and I, and I
thought  indiscernible! --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: She -- in fact, she -- in
fact, she was going to say -- she was hoping that you

42
wouldn't distract  sic! too much on her penmanship
because of her, her ailment.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of course, you know, the
impediment there.
DEX: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: N0, it is, it is bad. It's
fat and it's definitely twisted and there's, there's a
problem -- it - no question, like crushed her bone in
the, in the finger --
DEK: See, that can be --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- is definitely
fragmented.
DEK: -- taken care of if it's done soon
enough before too much of the bone material de--
degenerates.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Ye-- well, you know, she's
concerned about it, of course, but at the same time --
again, you know, what can you say? What can you say?
DEK: Well, I'll tell you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: More concerned about God.
DEK: -- just come on out and I'll, I'll --
why don't I check and see on that target, Steve, and
then --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, do so.
DEX: -- if it's still there or --

43
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, and, also, what
happens when she comes out, what then? Does she go
right to a doctor and --
DEK: That's -- she would receive --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - get the finger taken
care of?
DEK: -- medical care right, right away.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, they would fix it
totally before anything else?
DEK: She would receive medical care, that's
correct.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, it would be fixed,
right? I mean, she wouldn't be stuck in j-- that they
would look at it and stick her in jail and let it go
bad?
DEK: No. Steve, they won't accept people
in, in jail -- or book them in if they're in -- you
know, physically injured or anything like that. That's
true, like if --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DEX: ~- a police officer arrests somebody
that's been in a fight or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
DEK: -- injured in some way, they don't book
them into jail.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.

DEX:44
They have to take them to a -- for
medical care first, then they're, they're booked --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are they checking on that
picture, whatever it is, target?
DEK:No. Hang on. Let me yell --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
DEK: -- at somebody here --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DEK:-- and maybe -- hang on, Steve. I'll
yell and ask them to --
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
that.
STEVE
few minutes, if
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:SCHNEIDER: Right.
-- go make a call.
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
Hold on. Steve?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
Let me, let me get back with you on
SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll sit here for a
it doesn't take you too long.
Okay. Can I call you back?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, please do.
Okay.
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
And, listen --
SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
-- why don't you get Mayanah and Judy

45
and come on out and, you know, I'll have -- we'll get
her finger taken care of.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I like that.
DEK: I promise you that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I really -- just --
you're all right.
DEK: I can promise you that. I -- you know,
that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't doubt you.
DEK: - that's a lot of suffering and ~-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I don't doubt you.
DEK: -- it's not going to get any better.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I realize. I really do.
But, you know, in the first, in the first place, I
can't force her. I can put her on the phone with you
and you can talk to her.
DEX: You can take her by the other hand and
lead her on out, which is a, a kind of force, but, you
know, you can talk her into it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: She just - she commented
-- you know, being that she wrote both letters, she
commented on both and was amazed at the first one, but
she has an understanding of the prophecies, which, you
know, you can't glean totally from just a couple-page
letter. So, I can understand where maybe you might have
seen it as - I - and tell you the truth, it was never

46
-- I mean, sure, there's probably a threat in there in
that God's going to do what God
I mean, that includes me. That
And the only way you avoid that
circumstances ahead of time andsays he's going to do.
includes everybody.
is by knowing the
what you're to do about
it. But, anyway, I won't take you back into that
again.
DEK:
STEVE
back.
DEK:
about coming on
STEVE
DEX:Okay. Let me --
SCHNEIDER: I'll wait -- give me a call
Okay, Steve. And, and talk to Judy
out.
SCHNEIDER: I'll talk to her.
Let me c-- let me check with the guys
about the target and all and I'll try and get back with
you in about 30
STEVE
near here then.
DEK:
minutes?
STEVE
DEK:
srsva
DEX:
STEVE
DEX:minutes or so.
SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll be somewhere
Can you call me if - say, in 30
SCHNEIDER: You want me to call you?
Yeah. Is that --
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
-- okay?
SCHNEIDER: Sure, I'll give you a call.
Okay. Thanks, Steve.

4 7
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure. Okay. Bye.
DEX: All right. Bye.
¢¢***
DEK: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Dek?
DEX: Dek .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I was -- actually,
you know, I looked at my watch and I was just going to
call you, and then I forgot to ask some of the people
if they wanted to go out. So, I asked - there's about
five of them here. I was just talking to them.
DEK: Are they lined up and ready, Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They're not.
DEK: How about you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, not yet.
DEX: Come on. Come on. It's just one big
giant step. That's all it takes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, it's actually not such
a giant step. It's a --
DEK: Takes about six ounces of courage and
just a few steps down the road.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's not the courage.
That's there. It's just not - I have the, the fear of
going against God and his plan that I -- if I didn't
know anything about it, it would be no problem. It
would be no problem at all.

48
DEK: Hey, Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'd be so -- I'd come
flying out of this place. I mean, this -- I don't
consider this to be any kind of a home. I don't have
any, you know, real stakes in this place.
DEK: Yeah, you know, it's not --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Fire ants --
DEK: It's not going to get any better in
there. You know the conditions are probably slowly
deteriorating.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, they're always -- I'll
tell you the truth. It's been like it's always been.
It's not bad. It really isn't.
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
the -- being in
DEK:
by the Bradleys
STEVE
DEK:
hope you're notOh, it's worse than --
SCHNEIDER:
 it was.
SCHNEIDER:
the place.
Yeah. Hey,
and all say
SCHNEIDER:But that's not --
It's -- the problem isn't
That's not it at all.
our, our people out there
that, you know --
Oh, yeah. What did they --
I want to believe you, but, Steve, I
stroking me around or whatever. They
say that that target or whatever is still in the
window.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. By now you would

49
have found out for sure where it is, right?
DEX:
highest part of
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
there?
STEVE
-- actually, it
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
now?
DEK:
probably 10, 15
was still there
STEVE
DEX:
drawing orI
uIt's up in the top -- you know, the
your building.
SCHNEIDER: Okay. Now --
That's --
SCHNEIDER: Looking from the front?
Is that two levels or three levels up
SCHNEIDER: I -- that's three - it's
s four.
Well, it's up in the top.
SCHNEIDER: At the very top floor?
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: And it's in the window?
Yes.
SCHNEIDER: And it's still there right
Our -- well, as of when we hung up,
minutes after we hung up, they said it
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
And it looks or appears to be kind of a
a silhouette, you know, a target --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Really? Well, that --
DEK: -- the shape of a person.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to run up there,

S0
I'm going to run up there right now, and let me call
you r-- as soon as I get back, I'm going to call you
back.
DEX: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DEK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
the road, right?
DEK: Let me see
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
the windows.
DEX: All right.I'm going to look myself.
Thank --
It's facing, it's facing
Well, I'll look in all of
That would be good. Just
don't, you know, don't stick your head out or any-- but
you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
stick it out, but I'm --
DEX: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
curtain.
DEK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
me. Let them know that.
DEK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DEX: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:No, no. I'm not going to
-- I'll look inside the
They'll, they'll get to see
That I'll be looking.
Okay. I'll call you back.

51
DEK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good~bye.
DEX: Thank you.
**¢¢*
DEK: Hello?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello. Dek?
DEK: Yes, sir. Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Nothing there. Absolutely
-- I mean, I looked at -- there's four windows on the
top, and the first one I looked to was the one that
faces the road. There's a square piece of like plastic
in the window that has been there ever since February
28th with broken glass --
DEK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:  but there's nothing - I
even looked on the back side of the curtain. There's
nothing there. No one's even sitting in the window.
Someone was sitting on the side, but there's no way you
could even see the person because they're sitting there
with a flashlight. They're trying to read from the
light that's being shined on the building. They've got
a giblg.
DEK: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I said is there - has
anything changed in the last two or three hours? Has
there been - and they says positively not. And I

- 52
looked at all four windows. There's nothing there,
unless it's some kind of a reflection somehow off that,
that square piece of plastic in the middle of the
window.
DEX: Square? Okay. That's on the one
facing the road?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, the one facing the
road.
DEK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's -- I would say it
looks like about a foot and a half, maybe a foot, foot
and a half by about a foot and a half, and it's about
-- somewhere in about the middle. It's a piece of
plastic. And there's cracks in the window. I don't
know if that would do it, if that would like show some
kind of a, a pattern or shadow. I don't know.
DEK: Okay. All right. What, what color is
that plastic? Is it white or dark or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's, it's -- what would
you -- translucent, it would be. It's not --
DEK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- totally transparent.
It's translucent.
DEK: All right. Okay. Well, let me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And the other window is --
there's nothing in there. You know, there's curtains,

53
of course. and I don't -- and I can't see how that
could ever be. So, if anything, if ~- I was thinking
maybe it could be that square. I don't know.
DEK: Okay. So, that's the, that's the
window facing out toward the road?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that faces the road.
DEK: All right. That's a square, one and a
half by one and a half?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. A total, almost --
DER: A piece of plastic, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - complete square. Yeah,
and that there is cracks through the glass --
DEK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and I notice that it
does show a pattern. So, I, I couldn't tell unless,
you know, you were on the outside looking or something.
But, you know, the way the lights are, it's possible, I
suppose. I don't know.
DEK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But there's nothing - I
asked them -- see, we don't even have anything around
here like, like you describe. We don't have *
DEK: No commercial targets?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. No. In fact, what
they used to do is stick tin cans. There's a pile of
dirt, if you ever got to speak with Robert Gonzalez,

54
they had a pile of dirt in the back and they had some
like real bright orange paper they had and tin cans and
things like that.
DEX: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But we've never -- I've
never even seen such a thing as -- I, I've seen them,
of course, in TV programs and things, but --
DEK: Yeah, that's the way it was described
to me -- -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's what I -- when
you --
DEK: -- earlier.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Well, you said to me
that's what pic- that's what came into my mind.
DEX: All right. Well, I appreciate your
running around checking on that, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's all right. I
mean, I don't -- why would  I don't quite understand
why they're concerned about that in the first place. I
mean --
DEK: Well, it just kind of makes them
uneasy, you know. They're --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are they spooked? They're
not superstitious or anything, are they?
DEK: Not superstitious, but I think, you
know, they're just overly cautious and, you know,

55
they've been out there for a long, long time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I suppose they might
think we're a bunch of crazies or something. I don't
know.
DEK: Did you have a chance to talk to Judy?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. In fact --
DEK: She --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I didn't get to talk to
her. I went to -- back to her room there and I tapped
at the door and I looked in, and she was sleeping. So
was the baby. So, I just left them be.
DEK: Yeah. Well. Does that mean you're
telling me you're not coming out tonight with Judy and,
and Mayanah?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's probably ~- that's
what it means.
DEX: Oh. I'm disappointed, disappointed. I
was going to order a pizza.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you just save that
order yet.
DEK: All right. I'll save it. Hey, it's --
offer's good. Offer's good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. So, you're, you're
on till what, the late, wee hours again or --
DEX: Oh, around midnight.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, really?

John-4?S6
DEK: Yeah. Around midnight.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DEK: And John De- did -- have you -- that's
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John-4? Yeah. JOhn
O'Neil. Isn't John-4 John O'Neil?
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
mixed up here.
little bit and -DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEX:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVEI've, I've -- no, John O'Neil is 5.
SCHNEIDER : Oh, okay.
I think John Denton is 4.
SCHNEIDER
I was --
That was,
SCHNEIDER
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER
There's -
SCHNEIDER
So, he'll
SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'm getting them
that was --
: I had those two --
: -- turned around.
- yeah, we've shifted around a
: Okay.
be on around midnight.
: So, it was John O'Neil that
I was a little hard on yesterday, then?
DEK: He was a little upset, yeah. He
thought you came down a little hard on him.
really?STEVE SCHNEIDER; He was -- was he upset
DEK: Yeah.

S7
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I know he put the
phone down on me.
DEK: Yeah. I don't know -- I was, I was
kind of standing by and I know the, the phone was -- I
don't know who hung up, whether it was mutual, mutual
respect --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. I, I --
DEK: -- or you both hung up or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I wasn't, I wasn't done
talking yet.
DEK: Oh. You wanted to go on some more,
huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I did. I really did.
If he would have been here with me standing on the
porch, he would have probably added a few words to the
DEK: Oh-Oh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- guys on the Bradleys.
DEX: Oh-oh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I mean -- you know, I
really -- I, I guess it was kind of a backfire on me in
that I was talking and thinking well of some of these
agents, then all of a sudden it's like I had the carpet
pulled out from under me.
DEK: Well, I -- yeah, just, you know, kind
of let us know or --

58
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, like - well, you
will -- that circumstance --
DEK: We kind of got to prepare for it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I thought you guys were
letting me know. Because in the past that happened a
couple of times, where I was actually called out front
because you guys -- there was a broken line, you
couldn't talk to us any other way. And I come out
unarmed. I don't have no arms on me or anything. It's
very clear. I don't go out running around, jumping
around. reacting crazy or anything else. So, I let
them see my arms, my hands, and I pointed to the wire,
and I was just going to walk back in, trying to see if
they had something for me or whatever else.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And that's, of course, the
miscommunication. Like even today, when I was talking
back and forth like with Byron about when --
DEK: Is that right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- when to go back out with
the letter and all that business. I mean, that whole
thing there, he, he said it was okay, but I kept on
saying now, make sure, you know, because, I mean, the
way the three Bradleys were sitting again, or the three
-- there was some kind of an engineer tank or something
in the middle. They had, they had been there for some

59
time. And then he said it was okay to go out there.
But I says well, why don't one of them turn or -- make
it very clear, because, you know, after what happened,
there again --
DEX: Yeah, you -- you know, we've got to
kind of pass the word along from, from one group of
people, as far as we're concerned, you know, like from
you to me or out to, to those people, and, and
sometimes the word doesn't get around in time. So,
yeah, if you're going to come out, you know, be sure
and let, let us know. Give us a call.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I've always talked to
you guys about that. And, you know, the reason I got
mad too, because I already was insulted, what happened
earlier when I was talking to John, and then he starts,
of course, threatening besides that. I mean, who needs
all that in a day in the first place?
DEK: Well, you know, people are frustrated
and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. I was myself.
DEX: Well, I'm frustrated. I'd like for
youall to come out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No one threw a distraction
grenade at, at John. I mean, no ones telling him to
go take a hike and all the rest.
DER: Well --

60
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So. Flipping him the
finger either.
DEK: Any chance that you all are coming out
tomorrow if it's not tonight?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It - you know, it's -- I
am -- it's always a possibility, and that is --
DEK:
STEVE
That is no joke
DEK:
that Tuesday --
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
know, I -- it'sHa --
SCHNEIDER: -- that -- no, seriously.
Steve, I've been hearing that since
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but I
-- after the --
SCHNEIDER: -- you have
-- I really - I see it
shame that it inconveniences -- I mean,
inconvenience anybody. I've come here,know --
been. But, you
that it's a
I don't want to
just to answer
for me, myself, and I, and my wife has answered for
herself. We've come here to learn something, to see
something. We're in agreement with it. And, you know,
I -- it's a shame that the ATP came and did what they
did to us and --
DEK: Well, you know, it's -- yeah, we --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And now that, now that all
of a sudden we're being thrown into some uncomfortable
position and we - I've not shirked from even entering

61that position, but it deals with, first, I came here to
learn and to do the will of the God that I know
something about.
DEK: Well, everything was unfortunate, but
still you've got --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and why, why -- let's
throw the ATF's out of whack and, and --
DEK: You guys are still going to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you know what I mean?
They're the ones that came to murder us. It wasn't the
reverse.
DEK: Oh, I don't think they want to
murder --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. They're using -- you
know --
DEK: -- anybody, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- even, you know, even
your own man Swine, whatever his name -- I think his
name is Swine.
 Laughter in background.!
DEK: There's a, there's a --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Huh?
DEX: It's not, it's not Swine. It's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, someone told me that --
oh, I didn't know --
DEK: It's --

STEVE
DEX:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEX:
STEVE62
SCHNEIDER: I --
Well, it's with a S C H, like Schwein.
SCHNEIDER: Oh, Schwein. Okay.
Yeah, there you go. A German --
SCHNEIDER: Well, I never --
~ strong German name.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Okay. I didn't know
that. I just heard, you know --
DEX:
STEVE
DEX:
STEVEIt's like Schneider --
SCHNEIDER: Right. Right.
- with a
SCHNEIDER: Well, I mean, you know, I
mean, I never gave it any thought about -- I just heard
that's what his
DER:name was.
Yeah. It's - may have been pro--
mispronounced, you know. So --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, anyway -- but what I
heard him say, talking about murder and all the rest of
it, and so did this David Troy. Like what's he talking
about? Who murdered who? Perry never had any - these
people weren't even armed.
DEK:
- you know.
STEVESteve, I know we've been over that. I
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but still, you know,
they haven't been arrested for killing Perry Jones and
Jadine Wendell, have they? Huh? Have they?

 O
DEK: No, and I don't want to real-- you63
know, but --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I -~ no, no. You don'twant to talk about it.
DEK: Well, I know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They don't have to go sitin a gray cell. But, no, I -- but I have to.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let's talk them out oftheir homes to go sit in a gray cell and, and to facesome charges and pay an attorney $500,000.
DEK: Well, I -~ yeah. You know, my concern,Steve, is --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You, you guys --DEK: -- that you all safely --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, where is the --DEK: -- come out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- justice in having to payout that kind of money? Where's the justice of --DEK: I understand. I'm -- I don't know allthe dealings for -- even just what I've gleaned fromthe news, that there is some sort of book or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah.
DEX: ~- movie contract that --STEVE SCHNEIDER: I haven't seen the -- any book yet.

0 .
something
reported iv
64
DEK: Well, that -- apparently, there's
going on there. At least, that's been
n the, in the media about a movie and book
contract or something and cover or whatever. I don't
know what
That's non
deal?
so anxious
mean, I'm
unfortunat
things in
into such
know?
about this
get it resyou'a1l worked out with the attorneys.
e of my business.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Dek, isn't this a miserable
DEK: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And you want -- and you're
-- I mean, you want me to get into -- I
going to. But, I mean, isn't it, isn't it
e --
DEK: Well, there are a lot of unfortunate
life.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So why am I being hurled
a thing when I've not done anything, huh?
DEK: Steve, I can't answer for you. You
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What does your God tell you
? Does he have anything to say --
DEK: Unfortunately --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - to you about injustice?
DEK: -- things happen in lite and we have to
olved.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, if you promise to

0 O
sit --65
DEK: You're in there. We're out here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Lookit, if you promise to
sit in the cell right next to me where we can play some
checkers and chess and, and you can share some of your
pizza when they bring it to you --
DEK: I'll bring you the pizza out to the --
into the road. I told you that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How frequently do I get it?
DEK: Well, at least one time. I'll meet you
out there at the road with it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Dek, isn't it something
else, though?
DEK:
STEVE
DEX:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
going to have -
STEVE
and live a lifeThis is a very unusual --
SCHNEIDER: What have I done --
~- situation.
SCHNEIDER: -- to deserve all this?
I don't --
SCHNEIDER: Man, I'm already up --
You're going to have to ask, you're
SCHNEIDER: I've already chose to come
here that's not the greatest in the
world in this building. And then, to top it off, the
world comes in on me and wants to take my life?
DEK: That's - well --

Q
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then
DEK:
STEVE
DEX:
STEVE
DEX:
to -- _66
throw me into --
I don't think anybody --
SCHNEIDER: -- some kind of a --
-- wants to take your life, Steve.
SCHNEIDER: Well, hey --
That's something you're going to have
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If you, if you would have,
if you would have been here, I, I don't think you would
have been unconvinced of that.
DEK: But, you know, the here and now, that's
something you might want to pray about and, you know,
ask for strength or whatever and, and to come on out
and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DEK: -- I hate
the music and get on with your life.Can you --
to say face the music, face
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Get on with my life in
jail, me, myself, and I.
DEK: Steve, you've got an
know, all kinds of legal --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: HOW do I
how am I --
DEX: -- dealings can take
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- goingattorney. You
-- you know, how,
place --
to ever get my
nice -- my motorcycle back? I really -- I mean, I

67
looked hard - it took me months to find that bike.
a Harley.DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
Honda Magna.
one of --DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVEIs that a Harley?
SCHNEIDER: No. It was a --
I can't - somehow, I can't see you on
SCHNEIDER: No, it's not. It was a
Oh.
SCHNEIDER: It was an '84.
An '84?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah. And how --
What size engine?
SCHNEIDER: - where you going to find
Is that a --
SCHNEIDER: - those? I -- it only had
3,000 miles on it.
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEX:
STEVEOh. That's like --
SCHNEIDER: They, they ~-
-- brand new.
SCHNEIDER: -- planted it in the soil.
I don't know, you know, what --
SCHNEIDER: They went out of their way,
of course. They enjoyed themselves at my expense. I
don't -- where am I going to get one of those again?
DEX: Have you talked to Zimmerman about

68
that? I mean, that's something you want to talk about.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Dek, you think they could
care about --
DEK: Attor-- yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is something that'll
make -- this whole case will make them very prominent.
They're getting all sorts of --
DEK: Oh, you're --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- free advertisement, of
course. Can you imagine what it would cost to get
recognition on all the networks and the, the press and
all the rest?
DEK: But, you know, that's something you
might seriously discuss with your attorney, about the
motorcycle.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I --
DEK: Was that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:  Indiscernible! --
DEK: was that a --
[End of tape 206]

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #207
4/10/93
9:08 P.M. - 11:29 P.M.

2
 Tape 207! I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Took about three days.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then --
DEK: That sounds like fun.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It was. But --
DEK: Think about that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:  that's over with.
DEK: Think of the freedom you had doing that
tri- taking --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DEK: - that trip, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm looking around here at all
the other things that we did, like the boat, the boat
on the lake and all that sort of thing. But -
DEK: Steve, come on out and start over.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You got some money for me to
start over with?
DEX: I don't have much. You know, that's -- your
attorney will work that out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Yeah, he is. He's got me
so I'll be paying him at least the rest of the
remainder of whatever time I've got. And I'll never
get him paid off. There's no way in the world.
DEK: Then get on the, get on the TV talks
circuits, you know?

3
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You mean there's people that
want to hear --
DEK: Certainly.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: --
SUITE
DEK: Certainly.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
would they?
DEK: You know, talk
this. I hope that's whatpeople talking -- well, you
don't want to hear me, so why
to your attorney about all
you've been discussing, as
well as other legal matters.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm talking about all
sorts of things. But the
they really don't want to
yourself. They like this
think it's going to go on
great now.thing I talk about the most,
hear about that, like
world, this life, and they
indefinitely, and that's just
DEK: No, I think most of us are aware that we
don't go on indefinitely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, no. You are aware, but
you don't really take it -- you've never taken it
really serious. I don't know, I guess the human mind
wants to forget about it and put it out in another
realm and not have to think about it.
DEK: That could be. That could be. What about
-- you don't observe anything on Easter?

STEVE4
SCHNEIDER: well, actually, no. It's
Sunday, which is the 18th. If you look in the Bible,
it does --
wave sheaf
DEX:
STEVEthe 18th is a very important day. It's the
offering. So, no --
Wait a minute. Sunday the 18th is a what?
SCHNEIDER: The 18 days, I should have said,
not the 18th, I didn't mean. I mean 18 days after the
DEK:
STEVE
COWOIIOW .
DEX:
STEVEEighteenth day?
SCHNEIDER: - new moon, yeah, which is
The 18th day is tomorrow. It's a Sunday.
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: And that's when they wave the
first ripened grain before God, the first of the first
fruits, as to, to show a good harvest and, and God's
blessings and so forth.
DEX:
STEVEUh-huh:
SCHNEIDER: And Easter, what we call Easter,
which really -- you know, it's a pagan word that comes
from Ashtar. Where -- it's paganism, Easter bunnies,
fertility rites --
DEK:Well, to me Easter represents the day Christ
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, it --
DEK:
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the Catholic church years ago"t I088.

5
intermingled the traditions and paganism of man with
some of the concepts of the Bible of Christ. That's
what happened.
DEX: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And Christ himself kept what He
himself -- and it's written in the book of the four
gospels, Acts, Corinthians. It's called Passover.
DEK: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Christ became the Passover. But
I won't get into it. I just -- I'm just saying, you
know, now you call it Easter, but that's what the
Catholic church started calling it.
DEK: Well, what I -- the reason I brought that up
is I -- what, what about the possibility of coming out
tomorrow?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is possible.
DEK: Well, I - okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, but, you know --
DEX: Yeah, it's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - actually, it's still -- I'm
waiting. I'm waiting like David is on his God and --
DEK: Don't wait on David. Get --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm not waiting on David.
DEK: Get Judy and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm waiting on his God, I said.
DEX: Get Judy, get Mayanah, and come on out. You

6
can't wait on David and, and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That - to me that letter is
pretty -- see, that letter is - it says friends. I'm
a friend too. You're, you're also a friend. We all
are.
DEX: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, Bob Ricks, the whole
DEK: -- come on out and we can get Judy -- get
treatment for her hand, her -- for her tomorrow.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I really hope that Bob Ricks
reads it in the right way in the -- that he reads that
last paragraph about Waco. I -- let him read that,
because it's not meant - it's not D A M N. That was
-- that passed my eyeball.
DEX: That was a, that was a typo written by --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It was.
DEK: -- Judy, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it was. It's funny. It's
strange, because I read it over myself once, but I read
it pretty quickly and I never noticed it.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Byron brought - I think it was
Byron that brought it up.
DEK: It's -- I guess I read it last night. It
had -- yeah. The damn dam.

it's
It's
Steve
it is serious and I'm concerned for you. I want to seeSTEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEX:
STEVE
meantSCHNEIDER: Yeah.
So.
SCHNEIDER: So, I mean --
Under water dam.
SCHNEIDER: -- that it's meant, you know,
as -- it's from God. It's from the Father.
from the rock on the throne.
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but it is serious. You know,Well, I'm not going to argue that point,
SCHNEIDER: No, of course you're not. But
I want to argue --
SCHNEIDER: No, but it is --
-- when you're coming out.
you make it out of this thing. I do.
COO .DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVEWell --
SCHNEIDER: You want to see me make --
Well --
SCHNEIDER: -- it through this --
-- I want to see you make it out of there
SCHNEIDER: I know you do.
I really do. I want to see --
SCHNEIDER: So the feelings are mutual.

B
DEK: I sincerely want to see Judy get treatment
for her finger.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe that.
DEK: And I -- you know, I hate to think that this
thing is getting worse and deteriorating and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm hoping --
DEK: -- beyond the point of --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you know, that this --
DEK: -- repair.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- this is coming to an end
myself, and I think it is. I think it is.
DEK: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But after six years, almost
seven years, where he's never written anything and
finally something was shown to him very clearly - he's
not a writer. You will find that out if you ever get
to meet him or whatever. You can ~- you're going to
find out he can't write. So, that - especially that
first letter was shown to him almost word for word, or
pretty close to it.
DEK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, I mean, Judy just took down
exactly what he said. You know, she wrote it while he
was talking from his own -- he'd scribble down a few
notes, and then he just gave it as he saw it.
DEK: Well, we got it, we got the second letter

9
this evening. So it's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I know you don't take it
serious, which is a shame.
DEK: -- squared away with him. Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm just hoping God has mercy on
you and --
DEK: Well, I want to be honest with you. I don't
-- you know, I really don't take that first letter very
seriously --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you don't.
DEX: -- that the dam is going to break and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, listen, at least let the
people know so at least that there's no --
DEK: That doesn't mean it's not possible.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- there's no responsibility on
your shoulders. And if it's from a kook, they can make
that judgment and pass it off then.
DEK: Okay. All right.
s'r£:vE scrmsmsa: But if it's not -- no, there's
no devices we're setting or anything of the -- no way
in the world, nothing of --
DEK: That was our concern --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that nature.
DEX: -- you know, just kind of the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I wish that would have been
brought up to me right away yesterday.

DEK:
that maybe10
-- the general tone, yeah, the general tone,
some of us read or interpreted, that, that
maybe, well, maybe that they planted some explosive
device --
STEVE
DEK:
STEVESCHNEIDER: No, those are actually --
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Let's say it this way. Let's
say it -- that's more of a concise summary of basically
the prophecies. That's really what those few pages
are. I mean, if you go back and you read Isaiah or any
of these prophets, you'll find out -- it's being
actually brought down very concisely to about that many
statements. And, no -- I mean, those -- everything
there is clearly found in the Bible. It is.
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
brimstone,
et cetera.
STEVE
love, thatYeah, I looked up some of those references
SCHNEIDER: Well, that's good.
-- and it was all kind of hellfire and
mayhem and murder, and, you know, et cetera,
So.
SCHNEIDER: But, I mean, God is a God of
the aspect of the love and mercy is that he
tells you ahead of si-- time --
DEK:That's why we have the New Testament, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- so you're on the right side
of the fence. We --

ll
DEX: That's why we have the New Testament, Jesus,
you know, God of love and all?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's correct. But the last of
the New Testament is the book of Revelation, which
reveals Christ to somebody. It's called the Revelation
of Jesus Christ.
DEX: I see.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, if you already know him by
the gospels, why do you need one last book called the
revealing of this person? Then it says in verse 3 of
Chapter 1, you're blessed if you keep the things that
are written there. And how can you keep something you
don't understand?
DEK: So, I need to read Revelations, then?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Definitely. Mo -- read verse 3.
It says you're blessed if you read it even.
DEK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It says that. But, remember,
the key is Chapter 10, verse 7, that, that mystery and
that book is found in the writings of the prophets.
You'll find the same similar language employed in the
Old Testament as in the book of Revelation. Many of
the prophets, you can go look back, you'll find that
they did not understand what they were writing. Daniel
didn't, if you look at Chapter 8, 9, 11. He's fainting
half the times. So, a lot of these prophets, they saw

O ' O
l2
what was going to take place in the final days and
they'd fall on their face because of the angel that
brought the message to them was such a bright being,
out of this world, you know what I mean?
DEK: Yeah. Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Extraterrestrial.
DEK: Steve, you keep this up, I won't have to go
to any religious services tomorrow --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you won't.
DEX: - Easter Sunday.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm trying to help you so you
don't have to.
DEK: I won't have to go, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You can have your Easter meal
with me here.
DEK: I'll -- well, it'll be pizza then. If
you're coming out I'll be out there. You just give me
the time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Too bad one of you -- too bad
your guys wouldn't let you come in here to show how
harmless we really are. You could sit down and talk
with me. And after an hour or two, or whatever time
you wanted, you could leave.
DEK: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If you want, you can do that,
and I guarantee your safety in and out. I'll walk

O O
13
right out with you or whatever else. But if you --
front, but I never saw his face the second time.
leas
leas
out
and
the
you
out
ther
of d
woul
realDEK: Well, Byron met with you kind of --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DEK: -- face to face, didn't he?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he did out there in the
At
t he did try to ta-- I could hear his voice, at
t.
DEX: Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe we can work that
sometime. But I'd like to have you and Judy and,
Mayanah come on out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what about the rest?
DEK: The rest? That's -- well, let's get you --
three of you for starters. And I, I think that if
come out, we've been through this before, you come
and some others are going to follow. I think that
e may be some people in there that are maybe kind
own and out as far as the way things have gone and
d probably certainly follow you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, they're looking --
DEX: ~- out of there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They really are looking with a
intense interest at, of course, these letters.
They, they've been viewing that. You know what's been
happening here, people have been warned here that, from
thebeginning, that they've ever come to hear David,

Q I
14
that if they don't go back to the Bible and check him
out and look at the Bible for themselves, it's totally
worthless. He's told everybody that from the day that
he met - or they met with him. And no one's ever
really done it. Everybody reads once in a great while.
But this has given people an opportunity they've never
really had. People are really looking at the
scriptures, really trying to give -- you know, they're
coming up with
about this andquestions for him. Yeah, then what
what about that, and, and this is what's
been happening. So, you know, you've got this new guy
Louis here who has come with a -- really, the guy is --
he came with his pentecostal feelings and all --
DEK: Alaniz?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, Alaniz.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And he's - and
subdued and quiet in that he's heard a
gone back and looked it over to see if
Book, and he's coming up to me now and
him be, actually, because, you know, I
or force. None of us ever do. And ifnow he's very
lot and he's
it's in the
-- and I leave
don't ever push
the guy - he
can go at his speed. But he's always interested to
hear more of what David has to say and -- because of
what he says, and he's always opening up the Bible
directly. So, the guy has showed a lot of interest and

O I
15
he's always constantly checking and rechecking.
DEK: Well, when would he be coming out? with
everybody?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know. You know, it's ~-
yeah, possibly, or maybe even before. I don't know.
Because, you know, anything is possible, like with that
-- with Jesse Amen there.
DEK: Yeah. That was a little strange situation
there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he was -- he definitely
was into his -- whatever he was into. And even though
he never had seen the Bible opened up in his life like
that, he didn't want to give up his 12-year experience,
which has been, well, to say the least, very unique.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, you know, that's his choice
and we said -- you know, I told him I respect whatever,
you know -- you got to make your own choices and --
anytime you want to leave or if you don't feel you're
in harmony with us or you've had enough, you know, just
let me know and we'll make the phone call and help you
get out or whatever.
DEK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, that's - and he finally
came to the point -- he says, well, he believed his
time was up and he wanted to go, and so we said fine.

DEK:16
Okay. Steve, does this -- the 18th day,
which is tomorrow, does that play any significance in,
in you all coming out?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I - well, I can't say that.
David -- you know, like when the attorneys asked him,
he himself -- now, the -- I, I wish you could believe
me. There is no game involved in all this. I mean,
it's not something like we're playing a game with you
people as
need to get
-- it makes
but in your
for your --being FBI, and you've got a job to do. You
us out, of course. We realize that. And I
me -- I, I'm annoyed, not with you people,
behalf -- that I, I would like to see that
from your understanding. But like I told
you before this incident happened, we're looking at
something
even when
kidding.
seriously
know, you
looked --that we believe very strongly on. And David,
he talked with the attorneys, he was not
When they looked at him and then very
said to him will you -- that, that -- you
could see a bit of frustration, because it
you know, let's talk real, you and I. And
you -- your, your agents that are listening to this,
you know, the other guys there, they know that, you
know, it'd make these guys really look good if we came
out because of them and so forth and --
have had it. But that's not the point.
though, David -- they asked him very --if they could
The point is,
well, come on,

17
it'd be in your best interests and blah, blah, blah.
And David says that he agreed. He really did agree.
He says but look, you guys
since '85 something was --
experience you would never
best to explain to you.
DEX:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
know, this
said --
DEK:
STEVE
ask my GodNo -- well, don
SCHNEIDER: NO,
-- over some of
SCHNEIDER: I'm
is what he told
Oh.I
Iyou've got to remember
I was taken through an
understand if I tried my
t explain it. We've been --
no. I'm not going to.
that before.
not going to. But, you
him, and then that's when he
SCHNEIDER: -- that's when he said, let me
again. He says, I, honestly, I mean I will.
And so they asked for the answer. And he says, again
he says, I hate to tell you, but it was - he says, I
got the same answer. It was wait. And he -- every day
he's -- you know, he -- I don't even have to ask him.
I'll go -- I'll be sitting down with him and he'll
start -- well, he -- like the same way he's talked with
John Cox. He's talked about his past. He was very
open to show his many different facets and sides.
Well, when I sit down with him, of course, he, he, he,
he doesn't hide or bear any-- he'll tell you his entire
life details whether you -- I'm -- he's not hiding

18
anything. So, in, in talking with him day by day, he's
toldme what his interests are. He says he himself, he
-- that he has actually talked about coming out in the
last
he's
him,
COTUG
know,
were
knowfew days even. But he --
DEK: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- keeps on saying -- it's --
waiting on his God and, and it's, it's pressure
obviously.
DEK: Well, encourage it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Obviously.
DEK: -- because, you know, we'd like everybody to
out, not -- you know, I'm --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He knows that. And we --
DEK: -- I'm going to repeat that --
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
I, I
in your shoes, I don't know what else I would do
DEX:SCHNEIDER:
-- as often
SCHNEIDER:
We want you
SCHNEIDER:
We want you
SCHNEIDER:-- we all know that.
as you'all repeat scripture.
Well, that's okay. I --
t0 --
You've got to.
to come out.
It's your job and, and, you
-~ that's the -- what else can you do? If
Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: The only thing is, 1 know, I
it's so hard for you in your frame of mind and so

I I O
19
forth. You don't have my experience. I've been in
yours.
DEK: But you don't have my experience either.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In the sense of a human being I
do. On the carnal side I do, with the same kind of
aspirations and wanting respect, also wanting to have a
family and, and good things and -- I mean, we're all
the same. Everybody wants happiness and joy and so
forth. I mean, who, who's really different in that
respect?
DEK: Okay. Come on out. You're a young man.
Start your life over. Start - you know, you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER; Well, I don't disagree --
DEK: -- can start it over.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- with you, Dek. It's just
that, you know, I'm, I'm one of the very few,
apparently, in the world that has seen something. I'm
strongly convicted, and I don't dare go against the
conviction. And I'm going to hopefully -- start
writing something out that I can show you what God says
about things of that nature.
DEK: Well, there's a book possibility right
there, Steve. You could -- you know, you work that out
with your attorney and, you know, you can, you can
take, take up your life from there and keep going.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, how many guys are hanging

20
around there with you tonight? Not many? They're --
DEK: No. There's two -- about two. We kind of
scaled back.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You have, huh?
DEK: Some are - you know, have gone to be with
family tomorrow and they'll be back later.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. That's true.
DEX: So.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't doubt it. How's John
Dolan doing?
DEK: Dolans fine. He called me -- I talked to
John -- we go way back --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You do, huh?
DEK: -- about 20 years. Yeah. Up in Chicago --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No kidding?
DEK: -- days. We were work-- in fact, we worked
together --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Chicago, huh?
DEK; Yeah. In Chicago.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's - originally, you
know, I'm from Madison, Wisconsin.
DEK: Yeah. That's a real liberal town --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is. It is.
DEK: -- up there, you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is. You've got that right.
DEX: Yeah. Yeah.

21
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You remember the late '60s, of
course --
DEK: Oh, yeah. With --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the campus problems --
DEK: -- with the bombing? Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. For sure. All that.
DEK: I think John-S worked on that case up there
at the time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Did he really?
DEK: Yeah. He was in Milwaukee -- or he --
maybe, maybe he was there temporarily --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DEK: -- working on that case.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I, and I was for you guys --
for him -- catching them, to myself, I mean, I
definitely was not for what was happening in those
days.
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Amazing. Now, here I'm on this
side talking to you people. I mean, it doesn't make a
lot of sense.
DEK: Well, we can get it res--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But --
DEK: It -- oh, it doesn't make sense to me
either, but we can get it resolved, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, Madison, Wisconsin?

22
DEK: Yup.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: S0 --
DEK: Yeah, John --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, anyway, so Dolan, where's,
where -- he -- now he's not living in that area,
though, is he?
DER: No, he's out in California.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's right. He did tell me
that.
DEK: Yeah, he was --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's right. He told me
southern California.
DEK: He's -- yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He was familiar with a lot of
the area that I was talking about, and we talked about
Grizwall's  phonetic!. I don't know if you're familiar
with southern California.
DEX: I've heard of it, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's a very -- it's a
fairly famous German restaurant and --
DEK: Well, John-5 spent a number of years in --
around the Los Angeles area.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah.
DEK: And I was out there for two years back in
the -- oh, '69 --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is he -- oh, really?

23
DEK: -- '70, '71.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Is he away for the
weekend, then, himself, John-5?
DEK: No. He's, he's gone. I don't know if he's
going to be back later this evening --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, pass on my apologies to
him.
DEK: -- before midnight or what.
_ STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, even as a human -- from
a human being to a human being.
DEK: Okay. I'll mention that to him. He -- I
don't know if he'll -- he's usually on this shift with
me and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He is, huh?
DEK: -- he may be back in here before midnight.
Should I have him give you a call or whatever if he
gets in?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know. I might -- I,
I've been --
DEK: Oh, you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- actually staying up kind of
late lately. Last night I actually stayed up till
about three in the morning.
DEK: Well, I was here that night John Cox kept
you up. You were -- you sounded groggy. We thought
maybe you'd been --

STEVE
groggy.
DEK:
over there
STEVE
DEX:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE24
SCHNEIDER: Oh, I was. I was extremely
-- sipping some Coors Lights or something
SCHNEIDER: I don't --
But you were really out of it.
SCHNEIDER: -- I don't like warm beer.
Oh.
SCHNEIDER: I'll have one once in a great
while. I mean, none of us here norm--
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
-- after a
DEK:
STEVEFrom - you're from Mil-- Wisconsin --
SCHNEIDER: Oh, I used to have my --
-- and you don't drink beer?
SCHNEIDER: share when I was --
That's --
SCHNEIDER: younger, of course.
Oh.
SCHNEIDER: But, you know, you mellow out of
few years pass by.
Yeah. Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Plus I was in a religion where
they actually did -- there was no drinking whatsoever.
DEK:
STEVEOh.
SCHNEIDER: And, well, I was removed from
that religion, so I rechecked the Bible, and, of
course, it does allow for it.

25
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I guess I was straightened
out in that respect.
DEK: Well, goes that for -- you know, a glass a
beer, a bottle of beer, goes pretty good with a pizza.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. Okay. Well, save a
couple of those for us.
DEK:  Laughs! All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:  Laughs!
DEK: All right. Hey, let me get off the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DEK: - line here for awhile and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. I know, you're,
you're probably just about ready to fall off there.
DEK: No, no. No, I'm okay. I, I jogged today
and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Did you really?
DEK: -- ran and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good to hear it.
DEK: -- went and had a -- like I said, we had a
steak. And, so, feeling pre -- feeling pretty good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you better jog then -- you
better --
DEK: Oh, yeah. Got to lose it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DEK: Right.

26
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's right. Okay, Dek. Hey,
take care. I'll, I'll be talking to -- when are you on
next?
DEK: Well, I'll be here till midnight.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, you will be? I mean,
though, but are you around tomorrow night? Are you
gone --
DEK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- because it's tomorrow?
DEX: Yeah, I'll be here. No, I'll be here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DEK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know if I'll be talking
until tomorrow or if --
DEK: Oh, is this the sign--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- if -- who's going to be on in
the morning? I mean --
DEK: -- is this a sign-off or what?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't -- unless you want
to call. Otherwise, I'm going to be --
DEK: I may call just to pester you and see if
you're -- you've lined anybody up or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is --
DEK= -- if you put --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- who's going to be on at
quarter to nine tomorrow?

DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE27
Sage, Byron Sage. Byron is.
SCHNEIDER: Is he really?
Yeah. And --
SCHNEIDER: So, he's actually getting
involved in the negotiations here now at times or what?
DEK:
Rick?
STEVE
he the guy
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
once.
DEX:
STEVE
DEK:
day.
STEVEYeah. Yeah. Rick -- have you talked to
SCHNEIDER: I did once, and I haven't -- is
that's from Austin, if I remember right?
No. No. He's from the east coast.
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
Kind of a quiet fellow.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I think I did talk to Rick
So, Ri-- I think Rick --
SCHNEIDER: A Rick. I mean --
-- and Byron will be on tomorrow during the
SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well, I'll give them a
call as usual. I mean, this morning, of course, the
phone wasn't working.
DEX:
STEVE
DEK:Okay.
SCHNEIDER: And --
Well, maybe if John-5 gets back before
midnight, I'll have him give you a call and wake you up
OI --

28
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's fine. Okay. Then
what I'll do then is I'll
until about midnight then.in-- I'll try to stay up then
I mean --
DEK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: --
it gets dark here there'syou've got to remember, once
not a whole lot to do.
DEK: Okay. You're not stumbling to the phone,
though, and you have --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, at times I am. Well, it's
sometimes,
DEK:
STEVE
lights you
rooms that
DEK:
STEVE
sides here
so I could
DEK:
STEVE
DEX:
STEVE
spots hereIyou know, be--
Do you have a flashlight or --
SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, with these
ve got on the outside here, there's certain
are bright and others are not so bright.
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: In fact, I wish on one of these
they'd even get the lights a little brighter
do some better reading.
Oh, what's -- where is that?
SCHNEIDER: No. Some of these --
You want us to put some more lights up?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, well, there's a couple
that if they were a little brighter I could
do a little more reading than what I'm doing.
DEK: Where?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, how about --

29
DEK: In the front?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's, it'B all right. There's a
couple of spots that are bright enough it's almost like
daylight here.
DEK: Oh. Oh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I mean, that's why I hope
they don't get too excited if I move a curtain or
something.
DEK:I mean, I
Yeah, well
safety, don't be --
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVE
those kind
DEK:
STEVE
DEK:
STEVESCHNEIDER:
-- stickin
SCHNEIDER:
-- firearm
SCHNEIDER:
-- stickin
SCHNEIDER:
of things
All right.
SCHNEIDER:
You know,
SCHNEIDER:
the first place --
DEK:
STEVEOkay.
SCHNEIDER:
like you all. 'm trying to --
, just -- you know, the rules of
Oh, yeah. You know, Dek --
g any broom handles or --
You know, you -- honestly --
s out the window or --
Dek -- no, honestly --
g your head out.
-- no one's going to be doing
Just so --
-- doing those things at all.
pass that along to everybody.
They know that. They, they, in
-- you don't know it, but they

30
DEK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm serious. And the guys out
there, they -- I'll, I'll tell you the truth, a lot of
them get a big -- it's, it's a great -- very big uplift
when some of these guys respond with a wave.
Seriously. I mean, the more you see that kind of
thing, you really are -- you don't have a lot to worry
about.
DEK: Well, that's what I've been telling you.
Trust me. Just come on out with Judy and Mayanah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We're working on it.
DEK: I mean, Steve, we need to get --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm, I'm --
DEK: -- Judy's finger fixed.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- trying - to get this God
that a -- like a rock seated on a throne to move.
DEK: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He doesn't say a lot.
DEK: Maybe you're not talking loud enough.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Maybe you're right about that.
DEK: Maybe you're not praying hard enough.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll tell you, better blow the
old dust off the trumpet and see if that doesn't work.
DEK: Start praying a little harder, maybe a
little louder.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I guess so.

31
DEK: All right, Steve. I'll --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll be talking to you later.
DEK: Talk to you later.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
DEK: And thanks for checking --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DEK: -- on the, the target --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's okay.
DEK: -- up there in the window.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's okay. Talk to you later
DEK: All right. Bye.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
¢¢***
[Telephone ringing.]
JOHN ONEIL: What this means is we're going to
ring it.
[Telephone continues to ring.]
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
JOHN ONEIL: Hello, Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN ONEIL: John O'Neil, or John-5, as they say
in the trade these days.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John-5.
JOHN ONEIL: How are you doing, old man?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. How are you -- how's it
there yourself?

32
JOHN O'NEIL: Oh, well. You know, business is
going on and all that sort of thing.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN O'NEIL: Did I get you up?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. I was actually sitting down
talking to a couple people.
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh. How's everything going in
there tonight?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I was asking them if they
wanted to go out --
JOHN O'NEIL:  Laughs!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was -- seriously, I was.
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was talking to about three
guys here.
JOHN ONEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, I don't know, they're
showing signs that maybe they do.
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay. Now, this is your people or
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's not
JOHN O'NEIL: Who, who do you -- who are you
looking at?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, so far, you know, I don't
want to say yet because I don't want to make a

33
commitment, but, you know, that's why when the phone
was --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- ringing it took me a little
while. I said just excuse me, I'll be right back. And
so --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm just waiting to see what
their reaction is. But they're, they're starting to
show signs. And I'm saying, look, if you have any
questions --
JOHN O'NEIL: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- or anything like that, you
know, nows the time. I mean, if -- you know --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah, I can understand what you're
saying on that. I can imagine you've got a pretty
diverse group in there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, there is. I mean, you
people have talked --
JOHN O'NEIL: How about all these foreigners? You
know, are -- like -- are they used to life like this or
is this something different?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh -- hey, it's real different,
because, you know, those that are from England, of
course, if you've been there, it's --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah, I was there just in February,

34
as a matter of fact.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Really?
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see, I mean, you know what
it's like there. So, there's a dampness and so forth.
And believe it or not, they are really not -- not too
crazy about the heat here and --
JOHN ONEIL: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and the way it is --
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, you've got that guy from
Israel too, don't you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. He -- it's, it's not too
extreme to him. It's - in fact, it's pretty close to
Israel, the --
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the climate here.
JOHN O'NEIL: Then you have some other people who
-- where else? From -- let me see. You've got some
guys from Australia too, don't you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Not too many from
Australia, but there are a few.
JOHN ONEIL: How are they holding up?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They're holding up real good.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. Because not only -- the
Australians that I knew, they're -- I know, to be
locked in someplace like that over an extended period

35
of time, it gets to be pretty rough.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, believe it  you know,
the whole thing is -- the thing that makes a difference
is they're catch -- I mean, they are a divergent group.
They're from --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- different characters,
personalities, from all over, different perspective on
life. But the only thing we have in common is being
convicted by the Book. It's the only thing.
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How the -- you know, the
incredible thing is how many people can stay together
in such close quarters and not be at each other's
throats.
JOHN ONEIL: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, all my life - I've been
to colleges and in dorm situations --
JOHN ONEIL: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and have been in just loads
of different types of --
JOHN O'NEIL: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - social groupings, and there's
always problems. But there -- it's funny, but it --
there's not here. I think it's the seriousness of
looking at the issues.

36
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah. That's an amazing situation,
because I would think -- what, about 42, 43 days you
fellows have been in there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, exactly.
JOHN O'NEIL= And normally over a span of time
like that, in a confined area it starts gnawing on
everybody.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. It does.
JOHN O'NEIL: And, then, this is not an --
atypical situation, owing to the fact of what's right
outside the door and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you've got that right.
JOHN O'NEIL: And I'm amazed you folks have hold
on as long as you have in there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, again, you know -- I know
there's no way for me to begin to explain to you, but
it is because of the conviction, believing in --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- all the prophecies. And I
know that seems strange and off the wall, but, you
know, it --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- it's hard -- it takes time to
develop.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. I guess, though, you folks --
do you have --

3'7
STEVE SCHNEIDER:  Laughs.!
JOHN O'NEIL:  Laughs.! It does take time, guy.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know. I
JOHN O'NEIL: Oh, well. Hey, does David ever
refer to himself -- or are you familiar with the term
the seventh messiah?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Seventh -- no. I never have
heard of such a thing.
JOHN O'NEIL: No. Okay. I was just curious about
that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Seventh messiah. Is that
something to do -- isn't there a rock and roll album --
JOHN O'NEIL: There probably is or something. You
don't lose your touch. I, I always enjoy that. No,
there was -- I was reading your letter and I went
through it, and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, it's not exactly mine,
John.
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, no -- you being --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I --
JOHN O'NEIL: -- the group.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know, I know,
generically.
JOHN O'NEIL: Right. And, consequently, I kind of
got the drift of what it was all about. And I was just
curious. There was, there was one particular point

38
there that one of the fellows that is pretty heavy into
this thing was mentioning something about the seventh
messiah and whether or not that meant anything to you
guys in there, but apparently it doesn't.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. No, not at all.
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know what's unique? Most
people -- I don't know how familiar you are with
Christianity or if you're a participant or whatever
else, what's unique in, in the Book, a lot of people
have never understood. I mean, there's deep mysteries
in this book. If it's true. If it's not, you know,
it's quite a legend --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- quite a fairy tale. But --
and, you know, I still hit people -- and I would go out
and give studies and so forth. I usually agitate
people's thinking by trying to get them to ask
questions and look at the deeper things and --
JOHN ONEIL; Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and I've always said if you
don't see something there, by all means, never go with
something that isn't sure and that you've stepped back
and looked at it again and again, and constantly kick
it like you do a new car. And --
JOHN ONEIL: Um-hum.

39
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and it's always been the
attitude. And --
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: With even all that, some of the
mysteries that I have seen and that have been shown
that have really bothered Christians is who is this guy
Melchizedek, back in the days of Genesis. It's spoken
about in the book -- the writings of Paul --
JOHN ONEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- in Hebrews. It's a guy that
had no beginning, no ending, no father, no mother,
without lineage.
JOHN ONEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what are we talking about
here?
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah. Speaking of those type of --
I've got another name to bounce off --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, you're talking about mes
-- the seventh messiah. You know, the -- this is a
mystery of which -- well, and, and the person had no
father and no mother. Now, you're --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- talking about God, are we
not? With a name Melchizedek?
JOHN ONEIL: No, actually not. This is one of
the fellows that was supposed to lead -- there's a type

. "
40
of -- for -- like a type of leader, more or less.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, you're talking about a
seventh messiah yet?
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah, about a seventh messiah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN O'NEIL= Melchizedek was sort of a type of
mes ~ Christ or messiah -- or Christ, I should say.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see, really what it is,
let's make it as simple as possible, if you ever read
John, Chapter 3, Nicodemus was one of the learned men
of the law of the Sand -- of the - back then he was a
Pharisee.
JOHN ONEIL: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He came to Christ that night.
He didn't want to be embarrassed, of course.
JOHN O'NEIL: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And he came and had these
questions, and Christ got right into the deep things.
And he says in verse 3 that no man has ever ascended
into heaven except for he who has come from heaven,
even the son of man who is in heaven, present --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- tense. But at the same time,
he was standing there on Earth looking at him directly.
Now, what do you mean no man's ever gone to heaven
except for those that have --

41
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- come from heaven? And, of
course, it mentions in the Bible that Enoch and Elijah
were taken up without tasting of death.
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, how it is? Is Christ saying
that they came from heaven to begin --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- with? So, I mean, there are
statements there that theologians, laypeople,
ministers, they wrestle and struggle with, but are no
longer a mystery to us.
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, speaking of these type of
people, does the name Cyrus Teed mean anything to you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Cyrus - what, what is it?
JOHN O'NEIL: Teed, T E E D.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I've never heard of it.
JOHN O'NEIL: He's out of Fort Myers, Florida.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN O'NEIL: Now, we're kind of -- I think David
might be familiar with him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I have my doubts.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah, because he had the Koresh deal
going about 100 years ago.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He has a Koresh deal?
JOHN O'NEIL: Absolutely. His -- the whole thing

42
was going in that direction. He founded -- he changed
his name to Koresh and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Koresh or Cyrus?
JOHN O'NEIL: Cyrus Kor-- his name started out as
Cyrus Teed. Then he changed his name to Koresh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: When was this?
JOHN O'NEIL: Let me see, he was born in 1839. He
had this whole -- yes, he had a band and he was --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: 1839?
JOHN ONEIL: Band. Yes, that's true.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Holy mackerel.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. This -- I thought you might
run this by David, because a, a lot of the things that
this fellow said last century --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Cyrus Teed.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. That's T E E D. And he --
this whole kit and caboodle moved down to Fort Myers,
Florida.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: 1839. Okay.
JOHN ONEIL: Right. And this - and he passed
away circa 1900.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN O'NEIL: And at that particular time, he had
a little following down there and he -- similar 
situation that you folks have got going for yourselves.
They separated the guys and the gals. And over a

43
period of time, procreation was out, and consequently
they just sort of fizzled. That was the end of the la
-- he had two members, two female members that passed
away circa -- again, circa 1920, donated the entire
holdings in Fort Myers, which was on the ocean, to the
State of -- where is it? To the State of Florida.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hmm.
JOHN O'NEIL: Now, we have a feeling --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:  Indiscernible! --
JOHN O'NEIL: -- that David's going to be a little
bit more than conversant in this, like --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
JOHN O'NEIL: I think David's probably going to be
up on this guy.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I really -- to be honest with
you, I bet you any money in this world he knows nothing
about them.
JOHN ONEIL: Well, are you talking for David now
or are you just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I'm talking because I've
spent a lot of time directly with him.
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: As weird, the rumors you've
heard, all the writings --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. We're going to have to get a
book and send it in there.

44
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I don't mind. I don't
mind. You know, I always weigh and test and ask
anybody --
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- anything. No problem. In
fact, I'll open-mindedly look at any book and --
JOHN ONEIL: All right. Here --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- what proceeded.
JOHN O'NEIL: Steve, why don't I give you this -
okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN O'NEIL: It's the Koreshanity, and I'll spell
it for you correct.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN O'NEIL: Do you have pencil and paper?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'm -~ I hardly have the
light, but I'm going to do the --
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- best I can here.
JOHN ONEIL: It's capital K O R E S H A N I T Y,
and it's a new age for religion and it's for the
Koreshan Foundation. And it's basically -- looks like
if we use the term rip-off --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How long has it been around?
JOHN O'NEIL: Oh, let's see. Let me get a date
out of this book. All right. Teed was born in 19--

1839 and the book was published in 1971.45
And there is
this Koreshan Foundation and it's -- let me see, is it
printed out of Florida, Miami, Florida? Yeah, it's a
whole rundown of this whole operation. And it seems
how this guy started out as Cyrus R. Teed, changed his
name to Koresh, got this whole thing going down in --
let me see, I believe -- finally wound up
where he -- let me see, where did he come
But it's a lot of doctrines, a lot of the
that sound very similar to what David was
STEVE SCHNEIDER; Do you really know
was putting out? I mean, have you ever listened to himin Florida
out of here?
things that,
putting out.
what David
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, no. I'm just talking --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- directly or --
JOHN O'NEIL: This book here. And, no, as far as
this business -- like the letters that you're talking
about that came in -- that you guys dropped off today?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN O'NEIL: Now, now, giving the Cliff Notes
version, what you're dealing with is: Don't pick on
David. Don't do anything with David. You'd better
leave David alone because David's got the EHSWBIS .
Period. In essence, is that what the message was?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NO, it isn't. Well, in a -- I
guess maybe into some degree you could say yes to that

46
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Because if -- but, but that
whole thing is have you ever given him opportunity and
heard him through, hit him with any kind of question
you would like? Now, it's one thing to be a, a
Schuller or a Billy Graham or a Jim Bakker, whoever
else that had -- that goes through evangelical
feelings, orientated, all this kind of thing that you
and I --
JOHN ONEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- have seen over and over again
on --
JOHN ONEIL: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- TV. On the other hand,
asking a question, seeing the answer come directly from
the very pages you're looking at --
JOHN O'NEIL: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the context --
JOHN ONEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I, I've been with the man
when he's taken on rabbis, scholars around the world --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah, I have no doubt that this guy
knows the Book backwards and forwards. But the
interesting thing is --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've never seen anybody even
come close.

47
JOHN O'NEIL= Okay. This guy Cyrus Teed, same
situation, could quote the Bible backward and forward.
The structure of his organization, this is Cyrus Teed,
very similar to one David has, and they both had a
band. And they both used the band as a, as a vehicle.
Now, this is uncanny that we came across this and I'm
just curious --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You're telling me. I'm -- I
must admit you are right.
JOHN O'NEIL: And we're looking at this and we're
wondering if David, wa -- letting his fingers walk
through the library some day, came across this
particular book and decided hey, this is a interesting
gig and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good question.
JOHN O'NEIL: So, I think you might want to run
that one by him. Is David listening now?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, he's not. He's actually
talking with some people right now.
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay. You might -- yeah, bounce
that by him. I think he -- I'd be curious what he has
to say, and if he wants to talk to me, or John-4's
coming on a little bit later on --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay .
JOHN O'NEIL: - and John-4 is -- and he's up to
speed too. He shares my kind of sense of humor that

48
you and I get -- I kind of enjoy talking to you from
time to time, except when you start screaming and
yelling at me and hurt my feelings when I have to
deliver one of my more clever lines.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN O'NEIL:  Laughs!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. No, well, you --
JOHN O'NEIL: No harm, though, fellow --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - you --
JOHN O'NEIL: -- on that, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you got my apology then, huh?
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, well, you know, those things
happen. That - you know, those things -- we --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, it wasn't -- you, you
already knew just from, of course, your insight with
humanity that you --
JOHN O'NEIL: Oh, there you go with that tone in
your voice again. Oh, goodness.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It was not the
it?
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, the moon was
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh --
JOHN O'NEIL: -- obviously, your
down.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Ha, ha.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. But I thinkbest of days, was
not yet --
biorhythms were

49
STEVE SCHNEIDER:  lndiscernible! was in the wrong
position, was it?
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. Yeah. A little of that kind
of business.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN O'NEIL: By the way, this book on Teed --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN O'NEIL: -- it just goes right on through.
And I'm, I'm not going to even say that, you know, I,
I'm intimately involved with everything that David puts
out. But looking at this book and having my -- you
know, just running on through it -- and, I mean, a few
guys here that are in the very position --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Do you have a copy of it?
JOHN O'NEIL: In my hot little hands as I'm
staring at it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. And --
JOHN O'NEIL: Unfortunately, the Waco Public
Library might get a little bit upset --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I got you --
JOHN O'N'EIIL: - if --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, there's no -- it's not a
current -- right now it's not republished, anything or
JOHN O'NEIL: Now, hey, you never can tell. Maybe
they'd get a hunk of the action here.

SO
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll be  I tell you what. If
it comes in here, I'll make sure everybody gets to read
it and look at it.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. It is rather - no, it -- the
whole idea -- if I were any member of the Teed family,
I think David would be in trouble for copy ~
infringement, the way he's running this operation. And
it's, you know, it's -- I kind of --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Ha, ha. John, I like your
technique. You're all right.
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, you're okay too.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.  Indiscernible! -
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, you'all come on out, you know,
and -- hey, tomorrow, by the way, we're going to be
sitting down and having a nice dinner at the Ramada
Inn. It's a buffet, all you can eat and all that sort
of thing.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is there no one there that
believes that there's -- that possibly the world might
be winding down at -- we're not doing things --
JOHN O'NEIL: Hell, no. We're just a bunch of
cockeyed optimists in here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Geez.
JOHN O'NEIL: No.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:  Indiscernib1e.!
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah --

51
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You've got some humor in the
background there, it sounds like --
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, you know, this whole
situation, we're not a bunch of long faces. And I'm
hoping -- that's why we're kind of concerned about your
guys in there, that there's some of these guys that
want to come out or if -- you know, to maintain morale
and good order, as we used to say in the Marine Corps.
STEVESCHNEIDER: Yeah, but anybody that shows a
sign -- honestly, if they even act like they're
thinking about it, I've been like a buzzard here and --
JOHN O'NEIL: Do you remember the old --
STEVESCHNEIDER: -- drop right on them.
JOHN O'NEIL: You remember the old story, Steve?
A few bad apples will start -- the whole organization
will start
there that
little bit
STEVE
if they're
no means don't hang around and stay
everybody's going out anyways. So,
if, if yougoing to pot. So, if you've got some guys
are not buying the program or just getting a
of a problem --
SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. You know, if they,
even having questions, I tell them, then by
here, because
you know, I mean,
have questions --
JOHN ONEIL: Maybe sooner than you think --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- get on out. Pardon?
JOHN O'NEIL: Maybe sooner than you think.

52
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, it's, it's true.
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, even himself, you know,
I'm constantly talking with David and he's not -- there
is no way -- he's not adamant about staying here for--
at all, period.
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's talking -- I was sharing
that earlier with Dek, that he actually, in the last
three or four days, he's talking about time and going
out --
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - before --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. I, I've been handed --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I --
JOHN O'NEIL: -- a few things here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know.
JOHN O'NEIL: Some signs of my own.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And who knows, maybe he won't be
out until he's a skeleton or something, or I don't
know.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah, well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But the tru-- I mean, I, I know
him as a person and I've, I've been around him for some
time and watched him, observed him, and he definitely

S3
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay. Remember, -- he might be
taking his whole script from Teed's book and the way
it's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's a possibility. I --
JOHN ONEIL: And --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I've never heard of the book,
so I can't say no, can I?
JOHN O'NEIL: No, no -- are you serious about
this, Steve? You've never heard of this guy Teed and
this --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, honestly. I never have.
Never have.
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah. This is - it's - the whole
structure, the band, the way he handles people, the way
he divides them up. And as far as he has various
philosophies -- but I want to start -- I -- I can't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You're serious about this.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yes. Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And all these points are in this
book and --
JOHN ONEIL: Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and you're talking about
going back to 1839?
JOHN ONEIL: Well, he was born in 1839.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And he died in 1900 or somewhere

S4
JOHN ONEIL: Approximately. A little bit around
-- give -- or, you know, give or take five years.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN ONEIL: I've -- in -- no, it was back in the
back of the book about his auto stuff. But that's
where it is. Hey, you know, this is what it's all
about. And it sounds like a blueprint for how to run a
-- now, excuse my expression, but a slick operation
where everything goes to the guy that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. I mean, I'm not offended.
You know, always --
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- speak the truth. If you
think that there's shenanigans, that this is all a
bunch of malarkey, I mean, I, I'm never --
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- offended by -- you know, in,
in honesty --
JOHN ONEIL: Steve, the thought has crossed my
mind.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I've -- no, no -- don't
laugh too hard at the guys in the background -- but I
mean --
JOHN ONEIL: No.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- obviously, you'd have to be a
blind man not to realize that from your perspective

I
S5
it's not been all hokey from Day One.
JOHN ONEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But you've not also been here to
hear all that I've heard.
JOHN ONEIL: Well, sure. Well, you know, the guy
-- all right, might have polished up -- the guy is a
great showman, there's no two ways about it. He's a
great dynamic leader, very chra-- charismatic. He
can --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: who are we talking about?
JOHN O'NEIL: About - we're talking about David
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh.
JOHN ONEIL: -- in this type of situation. Now,
he's -- knows how to really motivate people and knows
how to really handle things like this. Hey, I have no
problem with it. But the thought is that maybe, maybe
through -- and now he, he's got pretty heavy into some
sort of a delusion here that has been fostered by this
book that Teed put out way back when. And, and I'd be
kind of curious if, you know, if he'd give me a
straight answer --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How did you ever come by or find
out or hear -- I mean, I've been into comparative
religion. I keep an open mind.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah.

Q Q
56
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm always studying, looking,
researching, comparing --
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and I have for years. And,
of course, there's no end of groups and subgroups and
cults and sects and --
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- denominations and everything
in between. But I've -- I can honestly say I've never
heard of such a guy.
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah. I -- you know, he's not up
there with Pope John or anything like that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's strange.
JOHN ONEIL: And, of course, w--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Ha, ha.
JOHN ONEIL: Good --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's --
JOHN ONEIL: -- good line.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the biggest cult in the
world, isn't it?
JOHN ONEIL: Oh, I tell you, if you'd just come
on out, because we can have a lot of fun, the whole
group of us here that have the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN ONEIL: -- same sense of humor as you do and
I do and everybody else. But, anyhow, with this

Q O
57
particular situation, is -- the reason we probably
haven't heard of it, because the sect died out around
1920, and it was never really great numbers of people.
We're talking about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I can understand. Just like the
Shakers and others and --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah, or like the gig there, with
David just going around, you know, procreating, shall
we say, and you guys being cut out and, you know --
this doesnt exactly add to a population explosion.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Most certainly -- if that's the
truth, it most certainly would not.
JOHN O'NEIL: So, that's what happened. The whole
thing just fizzled when Teed passed away and there was
nobody -- and the last of his daughters apparently
really sold on the program -- main true -- remained
true to him, and when they passed away that was the
ball game.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh .
JOHN O'NEIL: So, it's -- now, it's just kind of
curious about that. And, you know, is he around at all
now, that we can sort of lay this one on him?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David?
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, right now he's talking
with some people that -- I don't know what he -- I can

58
actually check and -- if I - you know, if he's around
or --
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; -- is able, I can --
JOHN O'NEIL: Tell you what you do --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- definitely get back to you.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. Either to myself or John-4.
And we're very curious about this stuff, because we've
-- we discussed it. we've read the books on it and
we're -- I wouldn't say we read it -- good God, talk
about heavy --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You --
JOHN O'NEIL: -- reading --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you want to get on to the
phone -- if you want to get on the phone with him,
though, I, I -- you know exactly where it's going.
He'll start hitting you with Bible again.
JOHN ONEIL: Oh, Christ. Yeah. We --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know that.
JOHN O'NEIL: -- don't mind the Bible routine,
but, you know, if we can -- if you can talk -- if I can
get the Cliff Notes version of it, that's fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I --
JOHN O'NEIL: You know, are you into --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I don't have  indiscernible!

59
JOHN O'NEIL: -- Cliff Notes or anything?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- be so fort -- of course. You
know, I mean 
JOHN ONEIL: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - after being almost a
professional student here --
JOHN ONEIL: Absolutely. You know, just give me
this -- like I - with your letters. I boiled it down
- or -- to about maybe two sentences, and that's
basically what you guys had in mind. Granted that it
doesn't get into the juicy parts, but basically it is
hey, leave the Lamb of God alone. He's out here. He
knows what's going on. And so forth and so on.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, what would it take,
though -- say, in the wildest stretch of your
imagination there was a possibility -- I mean, you
yourself know that there's almost -- in fact, pretty
close to, what, a billion and a half people in this
world claiming to be a Christian, and Christianity is
based on one source, the Bible. It's, it's the only
book from 2,000 years ago that say anything really
about this man, Jesus Christ, Yashewa, the Messiah.
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And here you've got this book
loaded with testimonies that are absolutely insane.
JOHN O NEIL: Yeah .

I]
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If you haven't read
lately, sometime take a --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- little time and
Chapter 20, 21, 2, 3 --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah, but these are all
references --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hey, either the guy
pizza late or night or had some pretty bad
JOHN O'NEIL:  Laughs.! Yeah, that's
say --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. Didn't you
JOHN O'NEIL: -- you never can tell.
Especially down in Texas.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean --
JOHN ONEIL: There's a good pizza --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well - well, you k
you and I, hey, if, if I can't -- I'm goin
look'it, at the very minimum or maximum, 1
here, I'm going by --
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I'm going by a w
evidence here.
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I've never -- I
there's no way in the world that you're go60
Isaiah
look at
vague
was eating
dreams.
-- like I
Yeah.
now, between
9by~-
et's say
eight of
mean,
ing to have

Q 0
61
total 100 percent proof about hardly anything here. I
mean --
JOHN O'NEIL: What --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you, you know --
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, okay. I'm not worrying about
the good book and all this sort of thing. I'm just con
-- this business about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I am. I am. I --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I think it's, it's terrible.
If that book's by -- is a farce and you've got people
making money off the book and people are sitting there
on their rear ends once a week for a couple hours and
dropping in a lot of coinage --
JOHN O'NEIL: Okay, okay, I'm off --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- in the plates and --
JOHN ONEIL: -- in the wrong direction here. I'm
-- Steve, oh, you mean about the Bible being -- are we
talking about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yes, I mean --
JOHN 0'NEIL: -- the book or Koresh book there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you know, I, I, I have -- I
don't know about you, but I have my questions
constantly whether there's even a God.
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah. Well.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know about yourself,

62
but, I mean, I'm, I'm a person that takes one day at a
time and a lot of things will come into your mind. You
look at it again and again --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and again. So --
JOHN O'NEIL: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the people that are here,
that's the way they are. No one's ever been adamant
here about anything. No one says for sure I'm going to
do this and that tomorrow. Who knows what tomorrow
will bring or --
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- how you'll look at an issue.
JOHN O'NEIL: You see, I have more dwelling on the
realistic, or by my interpretation of realistic --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly .
JOHN O'NEIL: -- the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm glad you qualified that.
JOHN ONEIL: -- the social plane here. And
knowing people as I do, and having existed lo these
many, many years, in the Marine Corps, then through the
Bureau and so forth, and the idea of having people
cooped up -- what have you got, 60, 70 people, whatever
it is?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are, are we talking chickens
here or what?

63
JOHN O'NEIL: It could very well be.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN O'NEIL: Because, you know, I never can tell
when you're being penned up in there too, with that
triple concertina that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I tell you what, someone
in the, in the middle of the night and also at times of
the - different times of the day when I'm hearing that
rooster out there through the speaker and whatnot,
I'll, I'll --
JOHN O'NEIL: God, have -- what a, what a way to
live your life.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I, I tell you, I do -- I
did kind of like the -~ listening to the Muslim
chanting --
JOHN ONEIL: Chants? Oh, hey, you know, they got
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It reminded me of being back in
Jerusalem.
JOHN ONEIL: We've got to touch the bases and all
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Three in the morning they do it
there. I mean, that's a nightly thing.
JOHN O'NEIL= Do-- being - speaking of Jerusalem
and all --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.

64
JOHN O'NEIL: -- were you with David back in '85
when this all --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. No, I was not. I didn't
meet him until -- it was end of July of '86 --
JOHN O'NEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; -- first part of August.
JOHN O'NEIL: Because David and I started talking
about that and I found that rather fascinating. And,
you know, he lipped and zipped right off into another
phase and I had some questions to ask him about that.
'STEVE SCHNEIDER: About Jerusalem? The --
JOHN ONEIL: You know, there --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- about the experience --
JOHN O'NEIL: About the whole deal. About, you
know -- I think it was - the way -- the piece of time
that he tried to lock on to was when the Russian
cosmonauts were zipping around up there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
JOHN O'NEIL: And --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That -- well, actually, it did
get in - I do have press rel - or some different
articles that were taken from the paper at that time,
different newspapers that picked it up.
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: what was strange is at the time,
of course, Russia being -- or the Soviet Union, being

65
atheistic --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: -- why would they have calling
back from their -- their space station about seeing
such a thing? And, you know --
JOHN O'NEIL: Probably closet Christians.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I -- ha. Who knows, huh? I
myself don't put much into that sort of thing in the
first place.
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, he mentioned it. But
for me, if -- I can't see it in this book, which I have
seen --
JOHN O'NEIL: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- a lot from. Well, then, I
really don't really give two hoots about.
JOHN ONEIL: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, what seven -- or how
many ever cosmonauts there were, so why --
JOHN O'NEIL: Well, it could have tied into the
seven seals and all this other stuff that he'd pounce
on pretty regularly.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I, I realize -- I
overheard it.
JOHN ONEIL: So -- yeah, so, you know, I thought,
I thought it was kind of interesting and I just wanted

0 :0
66
to chat with him a little bit about that. And --
because -- we -- he always tries to get in there and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are you sure it's not because
you need to sort of look better at press time tomorrow?
JOHN O'NEIL: Good Christ -- who, me?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:  Laughs!
JOHN O'NEIL: How many times have you seen me on
press?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I'm talking about you, but
you need --
JOHN O'NEIL: Oh, God.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you've got to do your job.
JOHN O'NEIL: I don't know who's going -- who's
going to -- who's it -- who's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I just -- you know, I'm always
looking at motives. Humanity is humanity.
JOHN O'NEIL: Not - not on me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm not going to be able to fool
you too much about who I am and what I am.
JOHN O'NEIL: Well --
[End of tape 207]