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Tape 4!
Phone ringing!
MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible!
MR. McGHEE: Jim, this is Roger McGhee. !
MR. KAVANAUGH: Just give me your -- I'll;
have him call you. What's your number? I
iMR. McGHEE: Indiscernible!
MR. KAVANAUGH; Give me the number.
MR. McGHEE: What's the number here '
indiscernible!. Thank you, 468-- V ~
MR. KAVANAUGH: Did you have one of those
guys call indiscernible! what's, what's the
indiscernible!. k
Phone ringing! 1
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MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! This is Jim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: Hello, Jim, is
this Waco? s
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: IndisCernibl%!
at the airfield. V
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Hold on just a minut%.
Get me somebody in there with a phone number that's git
indiscernible! that the indiscernible! guys can call.
Give me a phone number, give me a phone number 867-
6605.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: 867 what?2
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MR. KAVANAUGH: 6605.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: All right.
I'll call you right back.
M. KAVANAUGH: Thank you. Hey, there's 3
Air Force captain bringing in more FBI and you need Io
hook them up with the -- Mr. Gay, the, the airport >
manager indiscernible! I mean, the worst he could say
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is send them out first thing in the morning. I mean --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Can't let h
harass indiscernible!.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, that's true. ;
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Indiscernible
MR. KAVANAUGH: I am too. Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2= lndiscerniblie!
MR. KAVANAUGH: Airport manager -- I'll tell
them. I mean, I think we can do it. I mean, he's *
going to be in jeopardy but I mean, you load them up I
with, with vests and a helmet and but still, I mean -»
yeah, but they're kids. That's right. Oh, I agree, 1
yeah, and we get the ~- I mean a school bus is a ,
nonthreatening thing. I'll talk to Phil, maybe we cam
get something. Hey, we all got to bend a little ~
» indiscernible! come back i
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Yeah, but She?
released. i
MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! yeah. Yeah.:
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who is that? l
GARY: You asked me about wounded, I guess?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. How many people
}are hurt inside?
GARY: Well, right off the truth is x dont
know. I heard David saying when they were asking him,
he was talking about there was a leg wound to one
person, another person got it in the hand and I gue
it was a two-year-old girl that got killed.
MR. SCHNEIDER: A two~year-old girl was
killed? E
GARY: Yes, was shot.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, was shot.
GARY: That's terrible. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: And I'm not sure about -
think there might have been another young one, a small
one that might have, I'm not certain yet.
GARY: Did, did you know the little girl?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I didn't get to find out wh
it was because I've been on the phone almost totally
the entire time -
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GARY: Yeah, yeah. '
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MR. SCHNEIDER: -- from this morning on so I}
haven't been able -- I've talked to a lot of people
about a lot of things.
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GARY: Yeah, yeah. Well, how do you think ~
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I mean, with the situation that's gone on so far an
the, the tragedy that's, that's, that's been on both
sides? How do you think we might be able to resolve
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this so that we can, we can take care -- I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what -- you 2
,know, that's where I feel that David -- I'm here
because the man who has had the ability to harmoniz
many -- in fact all the Bible and, and made --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it very clear. So
know, it would -- I would rather, you know, let you
talk with him --
GARY: Sure, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- about that. 92
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GARY: -- I do want to talk to David later.E
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. He's on the phone i4
right now in fact, but --
GARY: Yeah, is he doing an interview now?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, I believe he is --
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - or I know his mother
called there and left a message that she wanted to be
called and, you know, he's talked to a few like that925
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and there are relatives here or there -- ~
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- they get a line on the
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GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- ou k
to alleviate the --
GARY: How does he feel by, by having an
opportunity to explain things --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know
indiscernible!.
about it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's happy to have the
Iopportunity --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- to be able CO talk with
people and we don't want to force our beliefs upon
anyone, we want everyone always to have the
indiscernible! to, to evaluate --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- thereby giving a good
verdict or judgment to what they hear.
GARY: Sure.
» M. SCHNEIDER: And if they don't that it's
there, if it's not reasonable and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and concise and so forth
well, you know, that's the freedom that God has givenGARY: -- from his side, that he feels bette6
y now, so he s trying
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every one of us.
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, you know, that's the way
it's been. But, you know, I mean we, we were always?
hoping that music would be the very vehicle that we 1
might be able to make a statement to the world in a i
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very common, decent way. But David, you'll find out he
went to a lot of churches. I went with him to so man
of them.
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Went up against the scholar
they could not controvert the doctrine.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, when you can go to ai
1Bible and not give an opinion in theory but answer L
every question with chapters and context. I saw
scholars that were 70 years old, one man could speak 60
languages, they had nothing to say in response because
they knew the man had something.
GARY: Well, you know, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just like when I tried to
controvert him for quite some time before I actually
became involved.
GARY: Well, David is obviously very
important in your life.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it's, it's, it's in»
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that if he has the truth because I want to live .
gforever. Ever since I was a very small child --
GARY: Um-hum.
looked up at the stars and wondered why is this --
where are we going, how did we get here, what's thi
vast expanse about? *
GARY: Yeah.
everything dies here, plants, people, animals, 6,000
pleasure but we're never satisfied and fulfilled and
relatives can be taken out of your life, friends,
accidents. God, what's going on?
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Who are you, God?
GARY: Yeah.
to know God. I tried it the Christian routine for the
majority of my life and in honesty, I mean, I've never
really known God but I've always wanted to know God.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! claim to know
him now, but I do see something about a book that's
very logical and clear and this man also has opened up
very deep sciences, physics, astronomy and these are1 8
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I've always like yourself
MR. SCHNEIDER: Why is this earth a cemetery
years of woe and human history. We get a little bit o
MR. SCHNEIDER: But I've never really claimed
the things that not many have gotten to hear recent
but those that have gotten to sit down and study
been totally astounded.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But --
how, how is he feeling with his injuries?
M. SCHNEIDER: He said he's sore.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, well, yeah, well,
talking all day long.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And so far, I mean,
so --
of confusion inside. You must be --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well -- '
today and indiscernible!.that David -- I guess David did a radio interview andiy
indiscernible! would have gotten to the place where
you'd have gotten to hear those things and would have
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GARY: You know, I've just been handed a note
that's, that's been completed. It -- you know, I --
that's what he said, he's sore and, you know, he's bee
everything -- he's doing okay. He was bleeding earlie
in the day but that's all been stopped and everything
GARY; Well, there must, there must be a lot9
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GARY: Boy I would think he'd more than sorei
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GARY: -- all wondering what, what's happened1
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is --
I GARY: Yeah.
very onset of the thing--
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and I mean coming from
outside.
GARY: Um-hum.
about, "Stop, we've got women and children here."
remember him yelling that, I heard it very clearl
And that'sY.
and windows and all --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It was, it was amazing.
GARY: I guess everything sort of turned
topsy-turvy after that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
we, we like -- we don't -- I don't know any of your
agents or anything like that but I, I -- you know, I
have great'respect and like he has had all his life
the lawand people involved and trying to protectlittle ways from it when all of a sudden I heard this
MR. SCHNEIDER: I heard him yelling somethin
when I saw the walls being just ripped up 1i |>
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, the truth of the matter
MR. SCHNEIDER: - what indiscernible! the
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near the front door and I had just walked a way down a
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Yeah, you know, and I mean
for
921 others freedoms and, and --
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times in history conflicts get started and unfortuna
things happen and it's --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and I'm not sa
indiscernible!.Yins
GARY: -- because people don't really
understand each other.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
there -- definitely it was confusi th
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I would have given
anything in this world if, if - like, like David sai
he had hoped that Robert would have gone back to you
and said this man is really interested in showing the
Bible and he would have loved to sit down with you
_people --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and, and answer any
questions, if you would have had a warrant for him he
n happy to go with you.
GARY: Umhum.would have bee
MR. SCHNEIDER: And if you want to know why
we have been -- like if you hear the interview he has
just done on the radio, he'll let you know the reasons
why we were even having any weapons whatsoever. Itlsll
GARY: Well, it's a shame. I think so many
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it's a biblical thing. It's not against you, it's dot
against anybody. A
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But it goes back to the Beck
A rof Luke, Chapter 22, verses 36 through 38, but it ha%
to be seen in light of the Book of Revelation and the92
writings of the prophet. D
kGARY: You know, Steve, I know we've just metI
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and just getting to know each other, but you know I
hope, I hope you think and, and will, will understan
that I don't want to see anybody in there hurt and II
to see anybody outside hurt. 3
M. SCHNEIDER: I really appreciate that, I
GARY: And, and I genuinely want to see if wel
an't resolve this. A1
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MR. SCHNEIDER: All right, good. E
GARY: And I'd like to, I'd like to see if w
, method by which we can put these h
apons down and come on out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what we would
ke to talk to you about.
GARY: well, Id be glad. I think -- 1
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>MR. SCHNEIDER: Negotiate and ~» 1
ndiscernible!.
GARY: -- I think we can do that, I think we
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vcan do that, I'm, I'm -- I don't have any doubt of
I know you're concerned about your security in thene
based on what's happened but I think --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
GARY: -- but I think we can, I think we can
Iaddress those concerns in a way that, that you find
appropriate and suitable and that we can, we can get92
this matter attended to. I mean, I'm just - there's,
there's not much sense for this to continue on and -
MR. SCHNEIDER: I agree, I agree. y
GARY: -- and have additional people hurt. E
I'd like to get back to where we were with Jim on the92
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children. I'd like to see if we can -- ~
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sMR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah, that's -- N92
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EGARY: -- get some more kids out. What do F
you think? E
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that sounds good to m
In fact -- '
GARY: Yeah. 3
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- Jim had kind of suggested 92
that, you know, his being tired and so forth that we'd
take a little --
GARY: Sure.92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- break and a rest.
i GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: A lot of them are laying down
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iand sleeping now so --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and, you know, everybody
is quite tired, you know, hyped up after all such an'
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experience and --
GARY: Yeah, yeah. -
MR. SCHNEIDER: So for that reason I was kihd
of for myself, not so much David's part, but I was kind
of happy just to take a little break. v
GARY: Yeah, well, I'll, I'll -- 1
KMR. SCHNEIDER: But of course --
GARY: -- you know, it's, it's always a nic
thing when, you know, we've got so many people out her
from so many different organizations and agencies. ,
when we start demonstrating that we're having children
come on out and that everybodys healthy and when, wheni
good shape it just creates a real good feeling on both
sides, don't you think?
MR. SCHNEIDER: It does, it does, because we,
we want them to be out, you know, and --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you can look at them and
check them over and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, see that they'reyou see that we've brought them here and they're in 92
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Eihealthy and --
of the kids and there's genuine
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah,
GARY: Yeah. So, how
another two out?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well,
even now if you would like.
GARY: Sure, I would.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR SCHNEIDERtalking with, Steve?
. : Okay.
W talking to him right no and --
GARY: Yeah.
GARY: Yeah.
honest with him.GARY: Yeah, I really would like to do tha
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm talking to Gary who has
replaced Jim. Jim is getting some rest right now
if you would like, you know, he's willing to keep on I}
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GARY: Yeah, I saw them here, the, the, the
ladies from the Child Service are taking real good dare
affection and --
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we appreciate that. 1
can we work to get 3
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we can start doing that
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! to go on. i
iworking and remove more children if you want.
Does -- is that David you're
David is -- I'm
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and he's been happy and he
likes dealing with Jim, he's been so forthright and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- frank and, and open andl
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* GARY: Well, I think now, you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: In fact, here's what Jim said
to him indiscernible!.
p GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said, "Don't deal with
anybody but me," that's what he told David. S
GARY: Well -- '92
MR. SCHNEIDER: Even when another faction, i
the Sheriff's Department, had Wayne indiscernible!
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another phone line -- 3
GARY: Yeah. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I understand many opposi
and different things than what Jim -- Jim says, "No, i
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David, let's you and I deal on this all the way ~
through." And David says, "Because of what he all
»showed -- " - 5
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GARY: Yeah. i
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MR. SCHNEIDER: -- " -- his honesty," and,
and, you know, you guys showed that you were doing what
you were saying and it was working out very well so he
wants to continue I guess the same program with Jim,
that's what he was just telling me right now.
GARY: Yeah, well, I think we can continue
the same problem but, but, but it'll be with me now
because Jim's gone, but, you know, Steve, you've,
you've talked --I
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13 MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary?
14 GARY: Yeah?
15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Here's David.
16 GARY: Okay, okay, Steve. Hi, David? 1
17 MR. KORESH: Gary? i
23 MR. KORESH: Well, I'm, I'm_ R K 17
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what he - I
GARY: -- you've talked with me for a while
3 now and, and David hasn't and I think maybe I can
4 depend on you to, to tell David that --
5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
6 GARY: -- you know, Gary is just like Jim 1
7 and, and, and he also cares for --
8 MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! just a
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10 GARY: Sure, I wish you'd do that. Excuse R
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18 GARY: Hi, David.
19 MR. KORESH: Yeah.
GARY: David, how are you feeling?
Q X MR. KORESH: A little pain, a little pain.
y 22 GARY: I'm surprised if it's just a little.
telling you a
Steve called me up. I
comfortable in talking
to be here for a while
same things that, that
can't develop the same
that ~-
MR. KORESH:
my word, that I'd deal
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:
GARY: What,92
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know, I know you were real
with Jim and, but, but I'm going
now and I want :o do the very
Jim did with you and see if we
kind of trusting relationshipg
I told I promised Jim, I gave
Kwith nobody but Jim. 1a
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That's what he made me promise
what, what he was talking aboud
in that regard though was the other phone line that was
going on and he --
MR. KORESH: That's not what he said.92
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iGARY: Well -- i
MR. KORESH: He said we're going to do this
together to the end.1
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GARY: Yeah, but, but I mean, he --
MR. KORESH: No buts, that's what he said,
you know?
GARY: And he meant that.
MR. KORESH: Now, now, what you failed to do
is that there's agents climbing ~- like I said, we got
night vision.
GARY: Yeah, I understand. I
MR. KORESH: And, and the thing of it is is
I
that there's guys coming from the
from the back of the property and
closer and closer.
GARY: No, we're, we're
away, and, and --
MR. KORESH: No, you're
keeping them away.
GARY: Yeah, Steve -- I
mentioned this before and we told
they said they weren't in that bui
MR. KORESH: Well, they
in that building, we're not stupid
GARY: No, no, no ones
David, you know, we don't want to
hurt. After what's happened todaybarn and comin
they're getting
keeping those guys
not, you are not
just got -- Steve
the tactical team,
lding.
re National--they
suggesting that.
see anybody else
~
MR. KORESH: Exactly, now why --
GARY: -~ it's been terr
and you know we're not going to assault that building, i
that's not in, that's not in anybody's interest. Andible on both sides92
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1you know nobody's going to do anything to harm you or
the kids. Now, what happened today was a tragedy and
we just don't want to make it worse. I mean, I, I know
you agree with that.
MR. KORESH: So, why are they still coming?
GARY: I'm, I'm sending another message to
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IMR. KORESH: No --
theyre lying to you.
you have over the National Guard?
GARY: Pardon?
MR. KORESH: D0 h
National Guard?
you know that.
GARY:
ago from --
were in the area. I
perimeter.
MR. KORESH: Y h
GARY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: So
GARY: Oka . W 11
going to send a message and I'm writiGARY: I didn't know -- I mean I knGARY: -- they're not there.
MR. KORESH: -- they are here, they're,
GARY: Okay. Well, they --
MR. KORESH: The National Guard is here.
didn't know they were in the
ea , they re in our property.
you need, you need to get
with those guys and tell them to pull back.
going out right as we speak to do that. S bome odys
ng it down,ew theyK
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MR. KORESH: You know, how much control dol
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you ave any control over the
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GARY: The National Guard's out there too?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, the National Guards herek
No, I, I just got here about two hourd
y e , well, and, and the word's20
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somebody's going to send a message in there to téll
them that. David, I'd, I'd really like to work with
you again on seeing if
M. KORESH:
what I'm going to do --
GARY: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
one of them out.
GARY: Well,
MR. KORESH:
negotiate and see what
to do.
GARY: Well,
MR. KORESH:
is get my babies out.
GARY: Well,
M. KORESH:
the phone --we can't get some more kids out.
Well, that's what I'm, that's
-- I'm going to get every lést
good. -
And Jim, Jim says we'll, weill
they want to do and what we Mant
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that's fine here. i
But the first thing I want to do
I, I want to help you do than.
Now, so when Jim gets back on
GARY: Jim, Jim's not going to be back
tonight, David, and --
MR. KORESH:
promised me that --
GARY: Well,
people here and Jim's,
M. KORESH:Well, he, he told me, he
you know, there's a lot of
Jim's just one guy and --
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No, but Jim is the one that I E
made the agreement with. E
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GARY: Well, Jim's agreement is good with me.
Now, David --
MR. KORESH: It is not, that's not what we
agreed on.
GARY: David, now, you've, you've told me and
Steve told me how you want to work this out with us and
you want to negotiate with us now. Now, do, do yqu
think that I'm, I'm not going to follow suit with what
Jim said? -
MR. KORESH: Me and Jim made an agreement.
GARY: Um-hum. 1
MR. KORESH: Wait a second.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary?
GARY: Yes?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah see now, David's saying
him and Jim made an agreement and, and even Jim did~
tell me that, he said that, "Steve if you'd like you;
can talk with Gary." I said, "I will, I'll *
continue -- " -- 1
GARY: Um-hum. j
M. SCHNEIDER: -- I said, "We'll give you
break." He said he was very tired. He said, "Steve,,
kwhy don't you take a break," he said, "and I trust you,
nothing's going to happen, we're not going to have any
people come on." é
GARY: Um-hum.
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MR. SCHNEIDER: He says, "If you want when
the morning comes you can take a little rest and let
your people rest and maybe be refreshed in the
morning." He says, "We can pick up on it right
there - continue bringing the children out," which we
will do.
GARY: Um-hum. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: We will continue to do sd.
GARY: Well, I think we should do it right
HOW . '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well -- well, get Jim on the
phone then. I
GARY: Jim, Jim is long since gone to bed kor
the night. 1
:MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you see that's -- what,
what do you think the condition we're in right now? ,
GARY: Well, I know, I know, and, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: - are we going to make the whole i
thing dependent upon Jim though, Steve? - i
MR. SCHNEIDER: It may be because if he said
he gave his word and that's the way it was going to bd
and that's where --
GARY: I know. ,
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- stands with David. }
GARY: I, I understand, but, but I hope David
§
24
iwill be open enough. If, if you're both genuine in
wanting to resolve the situation peacefully 4
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, I.understand the
psychology you're using.
GARY: No, I'm not using psychology. I'm
just using --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no, I -- okay,
let's --
GARY: -~ plain old common sense. I
MR. SCHNEIDER: - okay, Gary, okay, but *
L
still, you know, the bottom line is because of the 5
predicament we're in - I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the circumstances, we're
still -- you know, you get this indiscernible! of
know, we want to trust you, you've shown us some things
but -- l i
GARY: That's right. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: - let's - you know, let
have you go a little bit further here and, and
indiscernible!.
GARY: But Steve, what if I said, what if I l
said to you Steve, I don't want to talk to you, I onlyl
want to talk to David? Would -- I mean, that wouldn't
1make sense would it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: It - well, it
i
92I
x
92 indiscernible!.s
' 25
GARY: No, no, because I want to talk to
anybody in there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, you can talk to me but at
the same time it was David and Jim that got this
negotiation going --
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- so that's where it
indiscernible!.92
GARY: Well, they got, they got it going and
they made some great progress --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, sure, and I agree
GARY: -- and there's absolutely no reasoné
why we can't go further with it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, if you'd like to
up Jim and, and ask him about it --
GARY: Well, I ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: - because he gave his
already. I mean indiscernible!.
GARY: Jim, Jim gave his word but, you
Jim, Jim's not the only person out here, Steve.
you be reasonable on this? A
MR. SCHNEIDER: I am being reasonable.
going by what the man told me --
GARY: Okay.Y
»
v
1
l
wake
92
word v
1
E
know,
Can't92
1
I'm
MR. SCHNEIDER: - and he was very clear, it
, X
I,
92
»
92
»
>
k
~
V92
,-
92' 92
_ 26
was not -- ' f
GARY: If Jim, if Jim --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- he wasn't ambiguous about
what he was saying.
GARY: So I'm, I'm to understand that then
you would, you would do everything Jim would tell you?:1
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, in fact -
GARY: Well, see --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- what he left as his word,
I said, that's fine and if you wanted to get him up§
and, and restart this thing that's fine also --
GARY: You know, it almost sounds like --
x
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- but then if --
GARY: -- we're letting, we're letting the}
kids suffer because of this --
MR. SCHNEIDER: They aren't suffering rightl
now. 1
GARY: -- and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: As long as you are where K
>you're at and you give us your word --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and we give you our *92
K
xword -- '
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- everything is going to
still be okay. In fact, it'll make for a better
P
92
92
92
i
92
92
1~ 1929227
relationship.
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: By letting that little time
go by you'll, you'll see that all the more I'm going to
put more trust in someone like yourself. .
GARY: Sure. Well, we're, we're, we're not
going to do anything to cause anybody any harm. I jst
v
think it's unfortunate though that we can't keep 7
communicating and negotiating. l
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we're ~- well, that'm
O _ 92
what we're doing right now. 1
GARY: Yeah, but I mean, David's just shut K
the door on me. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, he didn't shut the door
on you.
GARY: N0?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Not at all. In fact, that's
-- we're picking up on what Jim last told us and that's
why I said but through that time I'm still willing to
talk to you --
GARY: Well .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- without even going to
sleep indiscernible!.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- been talking to you to
make sure everything's cool --
28
GARY: Yeah. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: - that what's going on here,
what we can observe and see --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and you can keep us
informed that everything is still fine.
GARY: Yeah, I understand, I understand, and
I know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's the one that said take a
little break, I know it's been a, it's been a lot om
you and it's been a lot on us and -~ 1
GARY: Yeah. _ ,
1
I MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we, we said we appreciate
that.
I
GARY: Um-hum, no, and, and, and that's,
that's correct but, you know, Jim, Jim had to leave now
and ~- »
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but do you understand
it's - you know, it's hard to keep your wits about youi
when, you know, you're going on for like say 24 hours?
GARY: Yeah, yeah, I know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, you know, we're -- I -
we're getting to a place here where, you know, I don't
want to do anything jumpy or foolish or off-the-wall or
I mean, or have, have anybody here do anything like
that.
92
i
92
3V
' 2 9
GARY: No, I certainly agree with you there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: See, that's the whole point.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, what Jim suggested
sounded very reasonable, it made a lot of sense to he.
GARY: Yeah. Well, what Jim was suggestihg_
was that Jim had been on the phone with you so long
that Jim needed to take a, take a breath and take a
break.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean like me? '
GARY: Pardon?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean like me?
GARY: Exactly, exactly, so you know what I?m
saying. And Jim had to take a, a mental break for a E
minute because what you're going through -- 3
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I haven't, I haven't E
myself.
GARY: I know, I know, and we took that >
little break for a while.
KMR. SCHNEIDER: For a few minutes, but he's
continued on through and I appreciate that he had and
said, "Look, Jim, if that's what you suggest and, and
you've given us some trust and vice versa -~ " --
GARY : Um - hum .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- " -- we've given you the
trust," he thought that was great. We made very good
92
92
I 0 0
1- =1 30
progress and he said, "Let's pick up on this andif you
would like we'll continue talking to you by phoneievery
now and then." I said, "That is fine."
GARY: Good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I says, "If you would like
we'll -- -- I says, "I'll, I'll leave it that way and
we'll build on that trust relationship." i
GARY: Okay. I, I agree with you and I, and
I don't want to -- 2
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary --
GARY: -- I don't want to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- honestly, thank you, I
vmean that. 1
GARY: But you know, before a little while 1
ago we were talking about you did say you didn't see
any reason why we couldn't go ahead and make some
arrangements for some of the kids now and keep, keep p
going like we were. .
lMR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's -- well, see *
that's -- I know, but that's because I was going to
sleave it -- or, or where David was the one began --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- this with him and, you
know, the one he talked to, right, I'm sure was Jim
and, and because so much was worked out and --
GARY: Um-hum.
3l
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the very word he gave him
and everything, you know, he's already built a
foundation with him. And not ~-
GARY= Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and not to take anything
away from you, but it began so well that way and
indiscernible!. ~
92GARY: Well, then we can just build on that
relationship. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, well, that's what I'h
saying, but his final suggestion made a lot of - iti
was very reasonable, made a lot of sense because of dhe
condition we're in and what's all taken place. You
know, as late as it gets people are going to get morek
jittery and so forth and if they have - I
GARY: Well, we don't want that to happen. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: But see, that's what I'm
talking about. And you know, I mean I can speak for
myself but there are people here, you know, that still
want to do what they want to do.
GARY: How do people feel in there now?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I you know
indiscernible! little nervous and jumpy when they see
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- any kind of movement out
92
I
[
1- .1
. I
32
there. They - you know, they want to trust A
indiscernible! all the more and a lot of them do, but
at the same time there's a lot of people that are
still, you know, because of what all took place
earlier. .
GARY: Yeah. Well, how is your morale ih
there and everything? I mean, people holding up okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Morale is very good, yeah.
GARY: iYeah?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, it's again,
based on something outside ourselves.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: We're - you know, we're K
looking at a higher power than ourselves.
GARY: Umhum. »
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's where we can get our1
strength. .
GARY: Yeah, yeah. You know, David sounded E
like he was in some, some pretty significant i
discomfort. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, especially from talking
from, you know, early this -- you know, from the
morning hours right --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- on through after all that
took place, he's not even had a, a break whatsoever,
, F
92l
I Q C
~ 33
not --
GARY: What, what sort of medical care is he
receiving? I mean, has he got --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we have nurses here --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and they've attended do
him and ~-
GARY: Is he bandaged up pretty good? i
MR. SCHNEIDER: From what I understand, yeah.
GARY: Yeah. 2
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's got a nice shirt on and
everything so he looks good to me. N
lGARY: Yeah. Is he able to walk around? ;
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, right now he's relaxingi
GARY: Yeah. Q
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's smiling at me in fact.E
GARY: He's smiling? ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. A
GARY: Would it be possible for me to talk to
1
1David some more? <
MR. SCHNEIDER: Would you want to talk with L
Gary still or would it be possible to talk some more?. 1
He's been talking so long. Is there any way we could E
get a little break and - ~
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- could I, could I call you
5 4
, 5
, 6
5 7
. s
11 I
12I right back, Gary?
2 GARY: Sure, no, that's fine.
3 MR. SCHNEIDER: Even from where I'm sittin
s arting to quite sore to be
honest with you.
GARY: Well, you know what, take a rest an
you know, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
| 9
nGARY: -- and what we'll do is -- you know
10 what I ' 'm going to do is, you and David talk and, and
m going to ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
GARY: -- stretch my legs. But -- I
l
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sounds good. 3
ld just ask you to:
think of one thing. 92GARY: -- I just -- I wou
M. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
to center everything on, on just individuals because
this is more important than just --
MR. SCHNEIDER: N0, I, I --
GARY: - one person here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - no, I agree. I wouldn't
ish as to, you know -- »
GARY: Yeah, yeah.want to be so fool
MR. SCHNEIDER: --peg anything into oneGARY: And, and I think I don't want you 1
i
II
EI 9
right here my butt's t ' '
92 d I
v
. 92
l 3 5
little hole, but -~ 1
GARY: There's, there's, there's a lot of --
well, you know, if you'll just listen to me for a
second. There's a lot of good people out here, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. I
GARY: And, and I know what's happened today
l
may cause you to doubt that sometimes, but there 1
really, really is, And there's people out here that92
want to see everybody inside there come out and not be
hurt and so this situation can be resolved and that 1
92
everybody has an opportunity to - i
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm sure that -~
92
GARY: - to say this is what happened and 1
this is our perspective on it, this is -- you know, ha?
an opportunity to air the whole situation. And, and we
can get it -- we can, we can move beyond where we are,§
and everybody wants that. And, and I'm here to help X
you in any way I can, and I want to see those little E
Echildren come out, and I want to see you come out and It
1want to see David come-out and all the women in there
and I don't want to see --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I appreciate that.
GARY: - anybody else get hurt.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, well, that's -- you know,
that's what we want to do is talk with you and start
working that out.
.
,a92
92GARY: Yeah, and I'm going t
night for you so --
MR. SCHNEIDER: And I apprec92
K
. 36
0 be here all
iate that.
GARY: -- I think I - you know, I, I would
hope that the same sort of trust -~ Ji
enough to have me talk to you and I th
tell you a lot and if he --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, thanks
to have a little -- you know, I, I do
you are going to allow for us to have
here. I mean, like my legs are cramped
GARY: Yeah.
MR. scrmsxnsm -- my butt's
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know,
talking on the phones for so long it's
GARY: Yeah, but it's the wa
useful time spent because we've gotten
other better, we've, we've stopped a 1
from developing, we've clarified some
misunderstandings, I think we've estab
faith. We've hopefully demonstrated t
sincerity and our genuine interest in
And I want you and David to think abou
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: -- after you rest.m trusts me .
ink that should
92
r
for allowinglme
i
appreciate that
92a little break92
sore and --
sitting here V
y -- it's been ,
to know each
92
ot of problems 3
1
x
Klished some good 1
K
o you our, our 1
1
everybody inside.
t those things --
C5
37
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. '
GARY: And, and believe me, we'll - we're
flexible, we'll work with you in any way we can -+
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary, I really
indiscernible!.
GARY: ~ to resolve this but, you know, be
assured, you know, we'll, we'll take care of this
movement out there. I'm sure there's a lot edgy and --
edgy people, but nobody is coming in to get you. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, thank you so mubh.
GARY: Okay? 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, Gary.
GARY: But we expect you to be responsible in
there and to take care of yourselves, take care of the
kids. But I'll be here and - _
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. k
GARY: - you'll get back with me in a little
Kbit?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, I will, Gary. I
GARY: Okay, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you much.
GARY: Good enough.
MR. KORESH: Bye-bye.
GARY: Byebye.
Gap!
GARY: Hello?E
92 1
92 92
r
9292
92
38
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, Gary?
GARY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Steve back here.
GARY: Yeah, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm losing my voice.
GARY: Yeah. You all right?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. Anyway, the buys
just reported to me that they saw men right up at the
front door even. 2
GARY: Nobody's at your front door, Steve,'
not 92
MR. SCHNEIDER: who would it be?
GARY: It must be one of your people. You %-
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hang on, hang on.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Serious -- just hang on.
GARY: Sure.
Unidentified male voice in background.!
Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER: These guys are saying they
saw men out front.
GARY: Now, I don't know if it's because of
what's happened today, they're seeing shadows or
whatever. I am told there is nobody on your property.
- MR. SCHNEIDER: You're told that, but you're
quite a distance away at the same time and there --
.-1
0 0 p
39
GARY: Well, you're ~- .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- is - there was a semi or
some humongous truck that did pull on Perry's property
clearly seen - I
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - just across the road.; All
¬of a sudden now we have men in certain areas aroundthe
perimeter. These they see moving, moving right in the
front - =
GARY: Yeah. @
MR. scnnsrnsa: -- some right up close by the
door. y
GARY: Well, the're certainly people on the
perimeter but there's nobody on your property and if 1
they were up to the front door that, that would have do
be on your property, right? I mean, do you think
someone would be foolish enough to come up to your
front door with what's gone on?
92
MR. SCHNEIDER: Are you serious after what 1
92
92happened even this morning? i
IGARY: Yeah, I'm -- that's what I'm saying,
Knobody is going to come up to the front door.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't know. I mean --
GARY: NO. ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~- I mean I would have never
thought that what happened this morning would have
92
40
happened.
GARY: I know it, I know it, and it's a
tragedy that we don't want to see repeated, but I, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, boy, I'll tell you
what --
GARY: Yeah?
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- if, if there is anybody
there, if it does go on again, only this time it
probably will not quit. 1
GARY: Yeah. After we got off the phone lest
time --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: -- I, I, I, I had a meeting with theh
the tactical people here and I, I said I was very 1
concerned that despite what they were telling me I keep
getting these reports that there's people there. And
they - b
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, no, Jim was telling mek
the same. Were you there when Jim was telling me --
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: -- that there was five guys,
couple across, couple across the street by the bushes
and trees, he said they saw about five or something
near the guard gate. W
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's what he asked -- Kevin
l 92
Q I
; 41
asked me if that our guys. I says, "We don't have
anybody out there, no one whatsoever, positively not."
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And we get sita out there --
GARY: Well, I hope there's no reporters --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- she looked out there with
92her flashlight, went right into that guard gate andi
there was not a soul there.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So myself I'm wondering
what's -- just a minute.
GARY: Um-hum.
Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'm glad with Gary
indiscernible! now he's telling me he thinks it might
have been a dog.
GARY: It might have been a dog, yeah. I
mean, I, I know everybody is jumpy in there, but I mean
with what's gone on there's just no --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what I, what I
figured, you know, and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and you guys gave your
word, you seem relaxed, you seem, you know, like you
want to resolve it and end it all, well, okay, that's
what we're going to do.
I"
92
r
92
K
,_S
1 42
GARY: Yeah. There's, there's no -- there's
really nothing for us to, to gain by trying to E a
surreptitiously -- 4
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: -- put somebody up on your front door.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Do you mind if I jhst
lay down for about a half hour here? E
GARY: Not at all. y
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks. I got a, I've gotla
little bit of a headache here. §
GARY: Yeah, that's, that's fine. I hope, F
hope you and David had a little chance to chat beforey
but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, actually just got --
you know, there's -- you know, now and then you get a E
phone call and --
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: -- and I was hoping just to
put my head down just for a few minutes and --
GARY: You're getting calls from the press
or --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, you, you get calls
from just about everything ~-
GARY: Yeah. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- or everybody today. I
mean, you know, relatives and friends and press and --
92 .
92
92
92
1
i
I
92
I92
s
v
W
1 43
GARY: It's made a lot of news. 1 R
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I'm sure of that.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Never wanted it to be like
that. .
GARY: No, I don't think anybody did. I
_ MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh no, no way in the worlh,
not at the cost for any - a human life, you know. iI,
mean, makes us all sick, everyone of us --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -~ seriously, and --
GARY: Well, I'm hoping that we can work
together to, to the best of our abilities to, to right
the wrongs that -- Y
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: - have taken place and, and we have E
to look to the future and say that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
GARY: ~- we just hope that if you don't
learn anything from mistakes and -- 5
1 MR. SCHNEIDER: Then we'll repeat the same 1
thing.
GARY: That, that it was a waste, yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: Exactly. N
GARY: But I, I think we can hopefully all
somehow learn from this. Did -- I hope - please
Q O
A 44
convey to David when you get a chance after you've had
a rest or whatever that, you know, I've met with he
tactical people and again -~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, okay.
GARY: -- addressed your concerns and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
GARY: ~ my biggest concern is that the I
press or somebody might be loose out there, but I hope
that's not the case --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. y
GARY: and it's certainly not our peopleh
MR. scrmsxnsm Okay. ',
GARY: Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary.
GARY: All right, Steve - :
IMR. SCHNEIDER: I'm just going to just put my
head down indiscernible!.
GARY: -- get, get the rest that you
need ~-
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks.
GARY: -- and, and I'll be here when you call
back.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I, I really thank you so
much.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Talk to you a little
,,_.
92.
2 45
later. ~
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
GARY: Byebye.
Gap!
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Electronic:
1
Inoises!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #3: I'm getting no
ring at all. i
Electronic noises.! -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #3: There's
92 indiscernible!.
92
92UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #4: What's that??
Electronic noises! Phone ringing!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #4: Time is
4:28 a.m. Phone ringing! Unidentified male voices
in background.!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello? Hello, is this Gary?
GARY: Yeah, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, Steve. I heard you
were trying to get a hold of us.
GARY: Yeah. Didn't you hear the phone
ringing?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Could you hear me talking or,
or anyone else?
GARY: I didn't hear.
~ I x
h 46
923MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, the crazy things
rings, we pick it up and there's nothing on it but we
can call out on the stupid thing.
GARY: Oh, is that right?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'm not -- I'm trying
to figure out what's going on here and I can't, I dbnt
know what, what the phone indiscernible!.
GARY: So, you hear, you hear it ringing and
you pick it up but -- i
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly, and the --
GARY: -- no, I'm not --
M. SCHNEIDER: -- last time I even said let
92
»it ring a few times and we did, picked it up and it's}
like there is nothing on there. You can hear kind of E
like, you know, it's live but you can't hear anything I
l
GARY: Yeah. a
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- so I've been -- we've been"
rsaying if, if you're there try the other number and --
GARY: Well, I'm, I'm sorry about that,
that -- I, I thought maybe that you were still sleeping
or whatever and I didn't want to disturb you.
M. SCHNEIDER: N0.
GARY: But we had a report a little while ago
of some activity out in the front of your place from,
from your folks and, and I was a little concerned about
1 V
O O
i 4 7
that and I wanted to - I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what kind of activity?
GARY: Well, some movement of some people out
near the front near the front door.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Nobody, no one's been going
92
out of the building, nobody whatsoever indiscernible!
because remember before when we thought the same thing
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that we thought it might
have been a dog then. Could that be possible? i
GARY: No, I don't think so. I, I think the
people on the perimeter saw some people moving aroundl
and I ~- V
L MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they wouldn't have seeh
them move outside the building. No one's been given »
permission to do such a thing --
GARY: Okay .
MR. SCHNEIDER: - nobody.
GARY: Well, I have to accept your word on
that, and I really -- I hope nobodys doing that
without your knowledge.
MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible! the dogs --
there's dogs still running around he says.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But nobody from inside this
p
92
F
9292
. 48
. »building, nobody has permission and nobody has done
that. In fact indiscernible! now.
GARY: Well, good, because we're, you know,
we're keeping our end of the bargain and, and, and
trying to make sure we keep a lid on, on any activity
that might be misinterpreted by either side as being --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Most definitely. V
GARY: -- an act of aggression because we
just don't want that. i
MR. SCHNEIDER: Believe -- I told you what 1
did, I mean that. '
GARY: Yeah. Did you get a chance to get
some, get some rest, Steve? y
MR. SCHNEIDER: I, I was just in fact layingl
my head down - 1
GARY: Um-hum. v
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- when ~- about five minutes}
X
92ago and, you know, the phone was ringing off and on andi
92
we, we were trying to get that thing straight -- i
92
|GARY 2 Yé ah . 2
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and so I finally got to 1
put my head down for about five minutes, yeah. 92
GARY: No, that's not too much, but did you
and David have a chance to talk about some of the
things we discussed?
MR. SCHNEIDER: A little bit but not too much=92 1
92
w
Q
9292
0. '
_ 49
because he seemed -~
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: - he seemed to be a little
bit, you know, like tired and -- ~
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and fading there, so -~
GARY: Yeah, yeah. Has his, has his physical
condition deteriorated any?
MR. SCHNEIDER: It doesn't seem like it.
GARY: Um-hum. He sounded pretty robust when
I talked to him before -- Y
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right, right.
GARY: which I'm, I'm kind of amazed at y
considering his wounds. I mean, that's --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: -- that's remarkable. But I'd still'
like to get back to what we were talking about beforeg
see if we can get some more kids out. That was -- I
just watched a news show and that's playing very, veryi
positively. l
MR. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
GARY: It's looked on very favorably. In
fact, I think they're, they're saying there's been
eight kids released, but in any event the news coverage§
is making that out to be a very positive sign. I thinki
it's very good. I was hoping we can work on getting
Q
,
,
92Y
. I x
g so
SONG more out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. Maybe could you
-- well, you know, I'll, I'll tell you the truth. I m,
I'm fighting indiscernible! sleep right now --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I'm fighting even, even --
, . .»you know, we have been so long without sleep it's like
it's hard to even keep your mind focused on what's
going on.
GARY: Well, I, I hear, I hear some tiredness
in your voice and -
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, my, my throat is very
raw.
GARY: And I, I know it's been an emotionall
-- you know, gut-wrenching day and all that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly. I told you I'd like
to even indiscernible! here just so I can lean my head
back -- A
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- for just a little while, '
but -- .
GARY: Well, is David available to chat with?i
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he's, he's like me at 1
the moment, you know --
GARY: Um-hum. 92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- because we've stayed right
V
92
-
92-
92
;L51
with it for all this time and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we're just kind of hoping
just maybe an hour or two we can just lay our heads _
back here and -- i
GARY: Sure. Well, I don't, I don't think
there's any problem with that, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. .
GARY: -- I just wonder if maybe we could
bring out a couple more kids while you guys are taking
your nap. I think that would be a real positive sigq,
Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! to think
about what, you know, what we need to do. I need to I
start getting over here and waking --
GARY: Well, I know --
M. SCHNEIDER: -- waking them up and --
GARY: Yeah, I know -- well, I know you
indicated earlier from what you were saying that you 5
were really interested in having some more kids out and
I -- ' E
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: -- you know, we're certainly --
MR. SCHNEIDER: And that's why I said, you
know --
GARY: Yeah.
52
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we, we want all of them
out, every last one of them. We don't want any kind of
GARY: Well, we want every, we want every --
of course, everyone is always concerned about children,
but we want everybody out --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah, well, that's the
thing, you know - 1
GARY: -- don't want to see anybody hurt. 1
Um-hum. -
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, start with them aha
make sure that they have their chance and --
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- then all of us just to
work this thing out for sure. y
GARY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we can -- I dont
know, we, we, we could, we could bring you all out if
you'd like to come out together, that's, that's
something that could be done too. h
MR. scnnsrnsn: Well, that's why, you know, i
we need to -- you know, some of these people are so --F
you know, I mean after all -- you know, we're just --
GARY: Um-hum.
_ MR. SCHNEIDER: Like Jim, I thought it was,
you know, a good suggestion just to kind of, you know,
if a person can get their wits about them we can sit
. :
down and start talking and --
GARY: Um-hum.92
? S3
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, there might be
some that want to do this or that or, you know, we
could give them the offer again and whatever,
and --
GARY: Well, why don't we --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- see if we can do
maybe a group or --
GARY: Yeah.you know
v
V
it as -
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- or break it up in parts if
it makes it easier, you know.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But right now to just talk to
everybody it's just -- it's kind of hard that's why I
we're hoping by the time the morning comes so
get on the phone with you guys again and --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- start talking to
here -- I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and maybe we can
out and how we can go about doing it.
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You might even have
suggestions or we might work with you on thatwe can 1
0
everybody
work that
SQHIE
OI we
92
54
might have some but, you know, we'll go -- I
GARY: Yeah, I think we're, we're open to,
hear, hear some of your ideas too because I mean 92
ultimately whatever, whatever we agree to it has to be
just that, it has to be an agreement between, between
us all. And, you know, I mean we're, we're open-minded
to, you know, facilitating it just about any way you
want as long as it doesn't endanger anybody, we just,
just don't see any need for that. There's been enough
blood shed today to last a lifetime and it's just
tragic --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Most definitely, most
definitely.
GARY: -- just tragic. So yeah, I'd, I'd
really like you to think about that and we can --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: You know, again, we've, we've got A
plenty of time to talk but I think I am concerned most
pointedly about the children --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right .
GARY: -- and I just think some of these
developments -- we were -- it's a shame that I guess
the early-morning hours have intervened here but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, tell me. ~
GARY: -- it was -- we, we were on a --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I wish myself that, you know,
. 92
I
9292
H S5
it would have been a few hours before.
GARY: Yeah, but we --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: -- we were on kind of I think a nice,
a nice progression of, of having these kids come out
and, and it was, you know, certainly -- n
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, Jim indiscernible! dnd
I was trying to hang in there myself. L
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said he was going to tryh
to go -- and he said -- in fact, he said he was going
to go with me the whole way and -- '
GARY: Well, it's better to have a fresh mind. . ,if you can, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, well, I figured if he
knew what he was doing, doing the same thing --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and then he suggested it
for me and I says, "Boy, I tell you guy -- I says, "
-- I'm with you on that -- " --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- " -- and you've got our
trust and I really do trust you guys, you've done well
for us." W
GARY: Yeah, I hope you trust me now too,
Steve.
9
1
l
1* 56
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I do, because, you
know -- I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~- you're, you're telling me
the truth and, and so far it looks real good, I like;
that -
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and, you know, we can keep
on working.
GARY: Yeah, you know, it was just such a i
nice progression, I mean, you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. .
GARY: -- you always get asked by the bosseé
and so forth, "How are we doing?" and we say, "Well,
you know -- " -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: -- " -- we're talking to reasonable
people that are willing to, to meet us more than
halfway and resolve our differences -- " --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. ~
GARY: - " -- and, and they have
demonstrated that by, you know, sending some kids out
which, which shows that they don't want to see anyone
else hurt," and that's positive and I'd like to keep
building on that. And it demonstrates time and again
to, to everybody involved that, you know, reasonable
L
r
92.
92V
Q O
5,57
people can, can do reasonable things.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, Jim, I guess --
GARY: No, Gary, I'm Gary.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean --
GARY: Freudianslip, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Okay. I guess I'm
just going to lay my head down here for just a littlel
bit and --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- maybe I can get my wits
here together and --
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I, I want to continue
talking with you of course -- X
GARY: Okay .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and start getting the next
two -- you know, the names --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the addresses and phone
numbers, all of that.
GARY: Sure, yeah, have that stuff ready when
we talk next --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: -- and, and we'll -- you know, we can
I
' 1 _, _
58
do it the same way we've done it before of if, if yqu'd
like --
MR. SCHNEIDER: When, when, when will Jim be
about himself do you think?
GARY: I, I, I don't know, but, but I'll be
here in the interim and, and, and we -- 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:' All right.
GARY: -- can work this out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, but, you know, he would
like to talk to Jim indiscernible!.
GARY: I know, I know he would, Steve, but
I'll tell you it would mean a real lot to me if he
could, if he could see it to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I realize but, you known
if he's up, you know, we - he would appreciate it, you
know -- H
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - he feels like he's formedi
a friend with him and --
GARY: Oh, I know, but just, just as there's
many people in David's flock there --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I understand, yeah.
GARY: -- I know he wouldn't, he wouldn't
want to limit his attention to just one person --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: -- in his flock and --
Y
I
59
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, can I get back with you
then? I'm, I'm ~-
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - boy, I'm having in there
by a thread here.
GARY: Yeah. Well, get some --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: - get some rest and -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks.
GARY: -- and you and David talk about it and
be ready with the next two when, when we call and we'll
>
MR. SCHNEIDER: We definitely will be.
GARY: - and we'll work it out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Definitely, Gary. »
GARY: Okay.
M. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary.
GARY: I'm counting on you. I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You won't be disappointed. E
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Bye-bye.
GARY: Bye-bye. _
Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible! to me just '
I
92
0
~I
I60
now?
GARY: No, it wasn't me. I'm wondering if
it's the outside press or something trying to get in?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, must be. Wow.
GARY: No, I was going to let you call me .
back like we agreed.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. Okay. Thanks.?
I'm going to try to close my eyes again. They keep
handing me the phone here.
GARY: Yeah. Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thank you, Gary.
GARY: Indiscernible! from you, okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thanks, Gary.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
GARY: Bye-bye.
Gap! *
MR. CUMINGS: This is Jim Cummings from the
indiscernible! Administration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #5: Uh-huh.
MR. CUMMINGS: Indiscernible!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #5: Who are you f
looking for?
MR. CUMINGS: Phil Lewis. .
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #5: Phil Lewis? I
MR. CUMMINGS: Yeah, the ATF agent.
Y
0 i 92
61
Gap!
GARY: Hello.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello.
GARY: Yeah, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: How you doing, buddy?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, very - I don't know.
GARY: Very, very, you don't know?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, we're getting
reports they're watching the movement of these guys of
course and it doesn't make anybody happy.
GARY: Yeah, I know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They see them digging in down
by the barn, clearly digging in, digging all night.
It's --
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- getting closer to the
trucks and all that business.
GARY: Well, you -- I mean, if they are
digging then you know that that clearly means that
they're not, they're making any attempts to, to attaok
you or anything like that. I mean, they've obviously
got to maintain perimeter, you know that. 5
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know what the
agreement was that they'd stay off the property.
GARY: Is that actually on your property? f
'62
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, it is. .
GARY: Because it was my understanding that
they would not be on the property itself. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they are. That's what
they're looking at. .
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They're on the property.
GARY: All right. That's getting me mad
because I, I mean I've talked to them several times
about indiscernible!.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's why David and I
were both totally awed by it -- I
' GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - you know, it's an
unsettling thing because we after talking to you and
Jim and everything --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~- was going fine and we
wanted to - you know, here it's coming light and weire
going to want -- I
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- like to start sending the
kids out so it wouldn't be such a problem. §
V
GARY: Sure, sure. Well, that, that won't?
92interfere with that, and, and, you know, I will, I will
talk to them immediately after we get off the -- f
1
63
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! if you could
have them get out of there it would be great and we can
go on with the negotiating.
GARY: Well, I think what, what I had heard
before is, again, I didn't realize this was on your ,
property, but I heard - they were just concerned about
being exposed out there to sniper fire and so if -- 92
MR. SCHNEIDER: But it's still part of what
we told you guys. We let -- you know, like -- I
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- earlier in the day we let
you come in and get the wounded and all the rest.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: We were for you doing thatq
GARY: Um-hum, um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And in fact, it amazed us hfow
long it actually took you, you know, we tried to help
you as best we could even in that situation. And, and
even with now here you've got these guys back here.
We'd really appreciate it so we can go on with
negotiating. -
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, it, it would sure 5
make a person comfortable if we'd stayed like what,
what we agreed to.
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
P
1
64
MR. SCHNEIDER: There's three of them, or
whatever there is out there indiscernible!. j
92GARY: Where exactly do you see these guys?
MR. SCHNEIDER: They're, they're being vieked
from the one side of the building directly over to the
-- we call it the shop.
GARY: Can you give me a -- like a compass
heading on that? .
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm not looking at 1
anything right now, but it's at the north side.
GARY: Be the north side of the building -§
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: -- and there's a little shed out
there?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: And --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Not really a little shed,
from -- it's the block -- a cement-block building I
believe.
GARY: A cementblock building.
MR. scunmnsm Right. ,
>GARY: And, and, and in that area you see 1
some guys digging in? V
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, they see them clearly.
They've been reporting right along. '
GARY: Yeah.
0
V
:65
MR. SCHNEIDER: And there's just too many.
They've been watching them. H
GARY: Okay. Well, let, let me --
I MR. SCHNEIDER: They're digging holes so, you
know --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- whatever they're up to
it's definitely no good. .
GARY: Okay. Well, again, you know, I'm ndt
trying to make light of that, but obviously it, you
know, should, should, should tell you that they're ndt
attempting to attack you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what it tells me
because I'm just talking -- what's happening? Who's
moving up to the front of the building? A car?
GARY: Nobody's -- there's a report of a
moving to the front of the building?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Cars? What do you mean
they're moving to the front of the building? Oh, he's
watching them on 2491. Okay. But still, you know, the
other thing is clear though that those guys are back.
there --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and that was not part o
the agreement. §
GARY: Yeah.
I
as
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's what we were reporting
all night long, that they did see these guys back there
and what bothers me is you guys say -- then earlier you
didn't have any information on that that they shouldn't
be there. I -
GARY: Yeah. Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can I let you work that out
and I'll call you back? V
GARY: Yeah, I'm going to look into that,
but, but before we, we get back, you know, in this -3
MR. SCHNEIDER: Let's pick up with that
negotiation, you know, start working on that
indiscernible!.
GARY: Yeah, you told me when, when you
called me back you were going to give me the names of
the kids that were going to come out next. y
MR. SCHNEIDER: What, what are the names of
the next two kids that will be coming out when we get
this worked out? _
GARY: Yeah, do you have those? '
Tape 4A, blank!
Tape 5, side A!'
GARY: Go ahead and hang up, I'll call you;
right back.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: Um-hum.
1
f
92rev
Gap! V
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
GARY: It's not ringing in there. ,
Phone ringing!
GARY: That ain't the right number.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #6: Yeah, I dont
see why he wouldn't answer. Do you want to ask him?
GARY: He indiscernible! changed his numbei,
I
he's not going to know what it is.
Phone ringing!
GARY: I'm going to try indiscernible!.
Phone ringing! Dial tone! Phone ringing!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, Gary? l
GARY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. I guess you've been Y
trying to get a hold of us?
GARY: Yes, it didn't right after we --
MR. SCHNEIDER: What, what number have you l
been ringing?
GARY: What is this? 863-5663.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Try 5252.
GARY: 863-- I
MR. SCHNEIDER: 5252. ,
GARY: --S252. That's the number right whene
you are now?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.
/
92
,}
'68
GARY: And that's the same instrument we've
been talking on?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Apparently so. ;
GARY: Okay. I - maybe that's, that's the
problem. _ .
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think that has been.
GARY: Yeah, but as far as you know your,
your phone instrument there is functioning properly?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: You don't have any mute switches on or
anything like that?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No.
GARY: Okay. When we talked I, I sat down .
and I talked with the ATF commanders. I'm not with I
ATP, right, and I talked with them. I said, listen,
I'm, I'm talking to Steve and I said we're, we're
getting a, a credibility problem here, he's seeing some
people out there. They assure me there is nobody
there. They said there is nobody in that house,
there's nobody digging any -- the building and there's§
nobody digging --
MR. SCHNEIDER: All these guys though Gary, ;
they've all told me the same thing. What am I go --
GARY: No, and, and I'm concerned because I,
I don't want to lose my good faith with you. -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know the truth is,
1
69
you know, also, they've -- they observed -- here's an
Army tank over here now, armored carrier vehicle of
some sort.
GARY: Yeah, yeah. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: There's this, there's that.
I mean, what is this going to be World War III or what?
GARY: Well, there's a lot of people out here
as you well know and, and, and you've seen the news and
you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I would -- to tell you the
truth, I was quite surprised. If anything, Iithought
GARY: Yeah .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it would become less, not
more, and, and you know -- 1
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the good faith, I mean --
GARY: Don't, don't misinterpret whatithat
stuff means. The, the way the federal government
iresponds to these things -- E
' MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I do remember reading
about that Weaver story and a number of other stpries
I
GARY: Yeah, yeah --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- in the past --
GARY: That's right.
Q I
70
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- in the past and, you know,
it definitely unsettles a person. Q A
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know a lot of the people
involved are just people doing their job and don't
understand and --
GARY: But, but you have to know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- then you wonder from
what's going on at the top.
GARY: -- in the, in the Weaver case from the
moment negotiations started there wasn't a single shot
fired and there wasn't a single person hurt after that
point in time. All the, the damage done in that case
is exactly like what happened here yesterday; it's
when, when the violence broke out in the beginming but
once we started talking up there it, it worked but in
the best way that it could which was no further»loss of
life. _
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, what agency are yqu with,
Gary? ;
GARY: I'm with the FBI.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You are?
GARY: Um-hum. y
MR. SCHNEIDER: What? Out of Dallas org --
GARY: No, I'm out of Washington, D.C. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, you, you are?
f
u
71
GARY: Yeah, I'm from the FBI Academy.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I see. H
GARY: Yeah. So, I flew out here and I'm,
I'm a little bit behind in terms of everything that's
occurred but maybe, maybe that's an advantage for me
because I can get to, to hear from you and David and,
and come out with a fresh approach and, and that's what
I want to try to do, Steve. ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: And, and like now I --
Gap!
GARY: Are you still there? Are youstill
there, Steve? Hello? Hello? '
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
Unidentified male voices in background.!
Phone ringing!
GARY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #7: Hello.
GARY: Yeah, Steve?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #7: No.
GARY: Yes, David.
WAYNE: It's Wayne.
GARY: Wayne?
WAYNE: Yes, sir. _
GARY: Go ahead.
WAYNE: We lost our telephone.
r.
92GARY:
OD.
WAYNE
GARY:
on now?
WAYNE
GARY:
WAYNE
GARY:
Wayne?
WAYNE
GARY:
now?
WAYNE
GARY:
this phone line
David?
WAYNE
up.R
Y 72
Yeah, the, the one we've been talking
Yeah.
Okay. Which number are you calling me
863--
Yeah.
~-5979.
S979. Okay,
Yes, it is
Okay, Wayne
Yes, I canand you say thisiis
A
92
92
Can you hear mefokay
92
Okay. I'm going to continue to use
then for me to talk with Steve and
Until we get the other one patphed
GARY: Okay. Do you have any idea what's
wrong with the other one?
WAYNE: No, sir, I don't.
GARY: Yeah, it gap! it, it almost appeared
> like a loose wire or something because when I was,
talking to Steve last time it all of a sudden started
to, to, to break up and then it went out like thene's
92
. 73
some kind of, some kind of instrument problem. And we
have enough other problems today, we don't need bad
telephones. Well, can I talk to Steve again, Wayne?
WAYNE: Let me try and get him.
GARY: Okay, thank you.
WAYNE: I'll keep the line open.
GARY: Sure, I won't hang up.
WAYNE: Okay.
Pause!
Unidentified voices in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #8: The AEF wants
him on the phone down here.
Unidentified voices in background.! l
Electronic noises!
WAYNE: Indiscernible! 92
GARY: Hello?
WAYNE: Steve's going to call you.
GARY: Hello?
WAYNE: Hello? Can you hear me? 1
GARY: Yes, this is Gary. Who is this?
WAYNE: This is Wayne. 1
GARY: Oh, hi, Wayne. Did, did -- werd you
able to locate Steve? ,
WAYNE: Steve, Steve has just fixed his§
telephone and gap! --
GARY: Oh.
1 v 92
92
74
WAYNE: -- give you a call.
GARY: Okay. So you want me to hang up on
this line and he'll call me up on the other one?
WAYNE: Yes, please.
GARY: Okay. Thanks a lot. If, if he's not
able to get through to me because he's still having
92difficulty, would, would you have him call me§back on,
on the line that you're on right now? i
WAYNE: Sure thing. Can you --
GARY: What's that?
WAYNE: - ask Byron to give me a call?
GARY: Yeah, I'll do that. Okay. But let's,
let's wait until I make sure I'm -- as soon as I hear
Steve on the other line then I'll, I'll get word to --
WAYNE: Okay.
GARY: - Byron to give you a call, okay?
But I don't want to tie you up with Byron if I need to
talk to Steve through, through this conduit, okay?
WAYNE: Okay, go ahead.
GARY: All right, good enough. I'm going to
disengage then so I can wait for Steve to call me,
okay?
WAYNE: Yes, sir.
GARY: All right, bye-bye.
Phone ring!
GARY: Hello?
92y75
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, Gary?
GARY: Yes, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. -
GARY: I understand from Wayne that you found
some problems with your phone?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I was talking with you
and of a sudden bang --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it just went -- n¢ -- it'S
done that all through the night.
GARY: Well, I was scared for a minute that
you'd think it was, was me hanging up on you. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, no, no, I knew it wasn't
that. I indiscernible!.
GARY: Did you replace it with another
instrument or --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, exactly.
GARY: Okay, that should resolve the problem.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm hoping.
GARY: You must have had a loose wire or
something like that. - "
MR. SCHNEIDER: I, I think that's what it is.
I think it's we're having a wire problem more than
anything. I
GARY: Yeah, yeah. V
M. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I've got two children
92
76
here. '
GARY: Gap! looking out the window I see
that we've, we've gone into what's kind of a gray day,
but it's daylight in any event --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: -- and I'm hoping we can see if we can
get Chrissie and Brian. V
MR. SCHNEIDER: David would like - is Jim
around? He'd like to at least talk to him.
GARY: Well, as soon as he gets here»Ill put
him on, but he's not here now and I, I don't kmow what
his ETA is --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
GARY: -- but I'd really like to talk to
Dave.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's, that's fine,
but, you know, he would like to talk to
indiscernible!.
GARY: I, I know that and I, I -- 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can you tell me anything
about -- can you get some information from some o the
guys when he might be returning or -- i
GARY: Yeah, when, when -- yeah, after we've
finished talking I'll see, see if I can find out what
>
92 - ~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
1
1
77
GARY: -- what his ETA back here is.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary would like to talk with
you. Do you want to talk with him? He wants to know
what you want to talk about.
GARY: Well, I'd, I'd like to talk about a
lot of things. I mean, it's just the whole process of
negotiations to see if we can talk and resolva our
differences and, you know, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: He wants to talk about a lot
of things about resolving differences, whatever else.
David is saying again Jim said just talk with mim,
<that's what he said.
GARY: You know, Steve --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I - look --
GARY: I know. i
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- Gary, I'm in a position
here, that's what he was told, you know, I -- V
GARY: I know, but I'm, I'm also depending on
you to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I realize that. é
GARY: -- to be reasonable and what Jim}--
MR. SCHNEIDER: I realize that. "
GARY: -- was talking about when we had --
again, I'm very clear on this, when -- Y I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can you -- is there any may
can you at least call him or -- g
rt
9292
; 7 8
GARY: Yeah, I will but I just want to get
one, one thing straight because I think there was
literal, literal misinterpretation. when Jim said talk
to me, what -- Jim never intended for you to3talk only
to him. What he was talking
that was going on with Wayne
two separate things going at
confusing. You know, if you
me to do this, this, this is
help you and I mean I thinkiabout was the other line
and we didn't want to have
one point in timeand
trusted Jim, Jim trusted
my job to do this92and to
t's, it's unfortunate that
everything that's gone on that we have to sit and, and,
and wait on one person.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know, see I have gome
92through this conversation on numerous times.
GARY: Yeah. If David -- I mean, like3David,
David has trust in, in the people around him and! you
know, I think he had trust in Jim and Jim has
transferred that to me and it's going to be hard or me
MR. SCHNEIDER: He was telling me that Jim
had trust in him and --
GARY: Yeah, well, I have trust --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- indiscernible! him. L
GARY: -- I have trust in David,-too, and}
you know, David didn't, David didn't have trust until
he talked to Jim.
79
MR. SCHNEIDER: And Jim told ~- here's his
exact - he says, "Nobody else," is what he said.
GARY: Well, you know, it, it could be hours
before we even locate Jim and, and do you think gap!.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said it could be hours
before they locate him. Oh, I know you guys know where
he is for sure, positively right off, I mean especially
after indiscernible!.
GARY: If he was like everybody else here he
probably went and grabbed a hotel room in town
somewhere, there's just --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right, I know, but definitely
GARY: - there's, there's hundreds and
hundreds --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know you guys would know
where he's at after indiscernible!.
GARY: Well, I, I don't know where he's at.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They would there.
92GARY: Well, maybe they would, but againy you
know, we don't want to focus this all on one person.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just one moment.
GARY: Yeah . 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, they were just letting
us know about what you guys got all out there in the
field and, you know 1
l
80
GARY: Well, it's all on the news, there's no
secret about all that stuff.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I know, I know, they just
-- you know, they're just reporting back as always.
GARY: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know from the
notoriety this has received that there's -- I mean
there's just a cast of thousands out here. Tmeres all
sorts of equipment and personnel, it's a major, it's a
major news event and it's out job to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: In that cast of thousands are
there any angels out there?
GARY: Well, I haven't seen any in the room
where I'm sitting, but I'd like to think there's some
angels over, over everybody out there in that compound.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right, right. k
GARY: And in fact, there's two littleiangels
I'd like to see come on out. *
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what we, that's
what we were talking when I -- i
GARY: Yeah. §
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- called you back here.
GARY: I mean, I'd really -- I think it would
be -- it would help get gap! started this morningl I
mean, I think a lot of good progress was made
yesterday.
M. SCHNEIDER: He says he wants to save his
Y
81
strength for Jim.
GARY: Okay. Well, Steve -~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just a moment, just a moment.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He, he said again Jim said
only with him so --
GARY: No, that's, that's not what, what Jim
meant and I think you know that, Steve. Jim +
MR. SCHNEIDER: See --
GARY: -- we, we don't work that way. We
never say -- we never make it all -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER: I didn't -- he was the one
that talked to him.
GARY : I know .
MR. SCHNEIDER: I've, I've never seen him
like this. If that's what he heard and said and*thats
what the conversation was about --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it worked so well.
GARY: Well, I know, and, and haven't,
haven't you and I had such a good discussion and 5
haven't we worked well together? _
M. SCHNEIDER: There's, there's something
he's got to say that I don't have the ability to do.
The, the reason I'm here is because of what the manys
been able to show with the Bible, the statements he?s
82
been able to produce.
GARY: Are you talking about Jim now?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I'm talking about David
here.
GARY: Yeah. Well, you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: So --
GARY: - David -- before yesterday»David
never knew Jim and never talked to Jim and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Surely.
GARY: -- yet after he talked to him he found
that he was a reasonable and worthy person.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, because of -- condition
and everything I'd like to honor -- y
GARY: Well, right. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- what he's choosingéhere.
GARY: Well, I'd, I'd, I'd like you to have
him -- give him -- have, have an opportunity to talk to
me as well. I think --
MR. scrmmnzn: Well, let me call you iback
and try to locate him at least. Maybe we can buhz him
on the phone or something --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- or at least you can tell
me something about it. ~ I
GARY: Yeah. I think --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll call you right back and,
C
r,
92
92
192
83
and -- ' ~
GARY: Yeah, please do because -- at the time
being I'm not sure that I have, have the ability to
even call in to you so I'm, I'm -- until we can rectify
that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, call -- rememer the
5252.
GARY: Yeah, I got that down. I hope -- he
said -- 863-S979, was that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That, that's Wayne.
" GARY: Well, that's the number he game me.
Which --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm --
GARY: This is --
MR. SCHNEIDER: - 5252.
GARY: Okay. You're gap!.
M. SCHNEIDER: Wayne gave you the -- which
number did Wayne give you?
GARY: I, I was reading the wrong number,
you're right. :
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: 863-5252.
MR. scrmsznsm Right.
GARY: Okay, I understand. ~ 1
MR. scxmmnsm Okay. Call me back, and if I
don't hear from you indiscernible!.
L.
C
C92
84
GARY: Okay, but I'd just like to leave --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! minutes?
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: I'd, I'd just like to leave with one
last thought. I really, really am depending on you to,
to help me to help David and -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Do this for me and
then let's get back on the phone.
GARY: Okay.
mi. SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Good-bye.
GARY: Byebye.
Pause! i
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just like you said baok to
the wire so he got tired of it, pulled it all omt and
started over and --
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- he said it looks pretty
solid now.
GARY: Okay. Well, I can hear you prety
good. h
_ MR. SCHNEIDER: Good, good.
GARY: Yeah, can you hear me okay? 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I can hear you okay.
5 2s
Iw
' as
GARY: You know, I was just - took me a
while to get to the phone, I was just getting up to, to
go to the bathroom.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, you were? Okay;
GARY: Yeah, but that's all right. 1I'm with
you now.
M. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Were you able to
contact Jim or find our where he was?
GARY: What, what - I, I went and talked to
the, the bosses at the ATF here and I said, listen,
these, these folks would like to talk to Jim and they
said Jim is back at a motel somewhere getting some rest
and they said they, they just weren't going to wake him
up now, that he'd worked all night long and they expect
him to be here later in the day and want him to be
>fresh and be able to, to help you out and, and they're
not going to wake him up. And I hope that, that we can
work together and I'm here to talk to you. Huh?'
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I was just talking with
someone Gary.
GARY: Yeah. I think that's reasonable if
you, if you look at it. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: David?
Pause! ' '
Unidentified male voice in background.!=
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's, he's told me that Jim
1
8 6
made him give him his word. '
GARY: Well, we've been, we've been through
that, Steve, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said that Jim made him
give him his word.
GARY: Well, I, I hear what you're saying.
but I mean, you know, that's, that's what the bosses
have decided. Now, we can, we can keep talking like
this all day long and it's not going to change the
situation. You know, Jim will be here later today and
we can get him back in touch with you and that, that
shouldn't be a problem. But I don't think we should
waste this precious time and, and not proceed with, you
!know, the mutually beneficial things that I hope we can
accomplish, and I think that makes sense to you! Steve.
We've, we've talked enough now through the night» I
think you know what I'm saying is, is true and honest
and I, I just don't want this opportunity to pass where
we can get -- 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Tell Jim to give us a call as
soon as he gets there then. E
GARY: Well, that could, that could be pretty
much later in the day. §
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he -- that's what he
just said. l
GARY: Well, I, I think that's an
v
87
unreasonable position, don't you?
MR. SCHNEIDER: N0, I don't.
GARY: Well, could I talk to David about it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said Jim made me give my
word. He says, I can't go back on it, I can't break
it. 92
GARY: No, Jim, Jim, Jim didn't say give your
word that you won't talk to anybody else. What Jim was
trying to say --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I, I --
GARY: -- and he did say very --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Were you there? Were you
there when he was talking?
GARY: Yes, I was, I was, and what Jim said
is he didn't -- he had wanted to talk on one line, not
both lines, he didn't say you have my solemn word you
can only talk to me and nobody else, that didn't take
place and you know that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I did hear him. vkpu know
that he told me numerous times, Gary, he actually did,
that he said that he would stay with us right through
the night. t
GARY: Well, he, he -- and he did, he stayed
until 2 o'clock in the morning, but, you know --;
i
M. SCHNEIDER: Well, so did we, you know.
GARY: Oh, I, I know you did, but, butj
C
,
92l
Q
92 88
again, you know, you're, you're inside there;and, and
you were able hopefully to get some rest.
MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible!
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Jim made a promise?not to do
anything without him. He said he's going to keep that.
GARY: What, what would happen if Jim was in
a car wreck and he was killed, that means we couldn't
solve this problem, we couldn't talk? I
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, but he's not, you know,
and indiscernible!.
GARY: Well, I know that, but, but I mean
stop to think about the logic of the whole thing,
Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I am. A
GARY: You know, do you think Jim, Jm --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I am indiscernible!.
GARY: -- would --
relationship he did with you
say, well, you know, I can't
over to any schmuck here and
MR. SCHNEIDER: NO,
matter is though he wants to
indiscernible! --
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: --Jim would develop the
and just walk awayéand
Ebe here but I'll turn this
hopefully he does dkay?
the, the truth ofithe
r
follow through
he began with the person
,-
9292Q O
89
that stated indiscernible! he stated --
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- he gave him hisiword and
he wants to follow through on that. '
GARY: Um-hum, um-hum. Well, you khow, if I
call Jim up at the hotel and Jim says -- he gives me
permission to talk to David, that'll suffice then I, I
presume?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, tell him exactly what
we're saying, that --
GARY: But --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- David wants to communicate
with him because he gave him his word on that and --
GARY: Steve, that's not going to happen, and
iI mean I hope later on we can bring Jim down here but,
you know, I, I think, I think we're letting an-
opportunity --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Why don't you call him and
talk to him?
GARY: Well, I don't have his number or I --
I can find it later on, but that's not the issue. The
boss of the ATP has, has made a -- made his decision
here and he says he's not going to be pulling Jim down.
Jim's not the only one you're going to -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, you're talking about
all these lies and so forth on both sides --
90
GARY: Yeah .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and you're talking like
that. "
GARY: And that's why we, that's why we
should get down to business.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think you're unreasonable,
Gary.
GARY: What's unreasonable with that
position, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Because of what the man
stated, and David gave his word. He, he himself said
don't deal with anyone but myself, he says I'll work
with you right on through --
GARY: It's, it's because --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and then he said -F at the
very end he says, well, you know, I'm getting tired and
so are you, why don't you break until tomorrow, we'll
pick this up when -- in the morning sometime.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So of course the morning's
come and -- -
GARY: Well, you know, this is very
frustrating, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He, he went to bed at what,
2:00? Well, here it is --
GARY: No, he, he left here at 2 o'clock and
92
lQ O
91
-~ 2:30.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, I, you know,
I continued to talk with you, I didn't go to bed or
anything.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I, I sat here. .
GARY: Neither did 1, I stayed up all night
too. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, were you up through the
day?
GARY: Yes, I was. I haven't slept for about
32 hours. V
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well then you're in the same
ball park -
GARY: Yeah, I'm, I'm very tired, bud, you
1know, I think we've let something artificial here
really destroy a great opportunity for us to, to make
some progress and I'm very disappointed in that, And
I'm here to talk to you, I'm here to help you, I'm here
to, to -- I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that -- g
GARY: - enable us to resolve this situation.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You heard what I justisaid
though -- I
GARY: I heard.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the whole thing.
p
I92
1
1 C 92
»
I92
GARY: I know, and, and I can't do anything
about that. The, the boss of the ATF has said he's nOt
going to wake up Jim and, and he's going to let him
have his rest and that's his final decision --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, well --
GARY: -- but -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER: -» I guess we'll talk to you
later then.
GARY: Okay. Well, I'll be here for you, you
know. I mean, we need to talk and I think you know
that and I think David does.
M. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes?
GARY: There's -- don't you agree with what
I'm saying?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, because I've got to agree
with him because I, I heard from a distance the
conversation. I heard him talking with
indiscernible!. I
GARY: Oh, I, I heard it here, but youlre,
you're misinterpreting the whole thing. y
MR. SCHNEIDER: I've got to go by what he
heard and what he understood clearly from the man.
GARY: Well, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I've got to go by the man --
Q
' .
9292
93
GARY: - I know, and I'm going -- I'm --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- gave him his word and he
says they had a, they had a deal and they both had --
they had an agreement and he wants to abide by that and
follow it right on through just it was from the
beginning.
GARY: Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sorry --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: - indiscernible! I mean we were
ready to, we were ready to get Chrissie and Brian out
and I think it's -- they're the ones that are going to
be the victims of this now. It's unfortunate.} We're
ready. It's a fresh, new day.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Why would be the, the,victims
of what, Gary? "
GARY: Well, because you want to get them
out. You've asked us to help you get them out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what, what are you
talking about? They'd be the victims of what?
GARY: Well, they're the one who are npt
going to get the opportunity to come out is what I
meant. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they will have the
opportunity to come out.
GARY: Yeah. Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Positively.
1 94
GARY: -- as soon as you want to do that I'll
be here to, to help you work it through, you know,
really, Steve --
2"». v___
MR. SCHNEIDER: He says we're going to
sending them all out as
a Buzz.soon as you get Jim do give us
GARY: Well, I don't know when thatfs going
to be. We're ready to do this in the way --
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's ready to do it just like
we agreed and that's --
to --
GARY: Okay.
understand, okay --
MR. SCHNEIDER
calling us all the time
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER
we're -- and we've told
GARY: Um-hum
MR. SCHNEIDERif, if you'd like you want me
I want to make sure I
You know, there's press
-- and they ask us about how
them honesty --
-- right along you guys have
bent over, you've done extremely well with us --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER
we've worked with you.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you've worked with us,
And, you know, he understood
it that way; I can't, I
» GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:95
can't --
-- take that from him, you
know, Gary, between you and I, I can't.
. GARY: I know,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
deal, I didn't.
GARY: But you know, the way, the
works with us, the system doesn't depend on
it just doesn't work that way, and I, and I
understand that
MR. SCHNEIDER:
this which is so crucial
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I -_
He's the one that worked the
way it
one person,
thhnk you
Well, in a situation like
to so many lives and --
-- and so much is at stake --
GARY: Do, do you think I'm going to do
something --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: -- that
the children?
MR. SCHNEIDER:
put words into my mouth,
GARY: NO, no,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: I know,
to conclude if you ---- indiscernible!.
would jeopardize your life or
Did I say that, Gary? ;Dont
I know I didn't -- Y
I'm not.
-- say that. y
but that's -- what, whaq am I
I MR. SCHNEIDER:
have to, that --
GARY: -- feel
MR. SCHNEIDER:96
You can conclude what you
like that I --
-- I told you exacthy -- you,
you understand what I said and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
from that. GARY:
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
between two men. Why --
word gap!.-- you know, I, I can't sway
Well, what, what --
The agreement was made --
I'm hearing you say --
-- the agreement was made
he doesn't want to break his
GARY: Well, Jim, Jim --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
been definitely going on
GARY: I know,
that Jim made Jim didn'tGot a trust thing now it's
but all, all the agreements
make. They have to be made
and approved by the authorities, that's the way it
works here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And he said that he had that,
he let us know that he had that.
GARY: Yeah, that's right. He has that and I
have it. I have the authority to make those decisions
tOO.
M. SCHNEIDER:In fact, we -- you know,
97
right - we'd been working with him for quite a long
time and he had been at that time working with all the
different agencies and we heard him talking with them
and working with them and everything has been, you
know, going very well.
GARY: Yeah. Well, I, I think you understood
the point I'm making, that, you know, when Jim;talked
to David and, and Jim would then go to the ATF*leaders
and, and, you know, I'm, I'm here helping themgat their
request. And they made a decision. They would say
yes, Dave - they would say yes, Jim, you, you tan do
that. So it was their authority upon which Jim made
those decisions. Now they've given me that authority
now and, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm confident that we can
work this out together. y
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm confident that
indiscernible! --
GARY: Yeah, we - you and I've had some nice
conversations.
»MR. SCHNEIDER: -- go along as the agreement
was made there will be no problems and everythinggwill
work out just fine, I really believe that. I, I
believe you do -- '
GARY: Well -- 92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and I, and I hope so on
our side. A
<
t
,
9298
GARY: Yeah, yeah, then I don't kndw why we
can't proceed.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we can proceed as soon
as he - just give him a little more rest and we'll get
right at it. It'll give me a chance myself, you know,
I've only had -- why don't you lay down yoursalf for an
hour or two indiscernible! ~
GARY: Well, let me ask -~
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- give me an opportunity to
be a little more fresh --
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: -- and to talk and so forth.
GARY: Let, let me ask you something, Steve,
if I may --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
GARY: -- since, since we've, we've gqt a
little time here to talk.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, I've got a
terrible splitting headache to be honest with you.
GARY: Well, I know, but - you said you
wanted Jim to come here. Now, you said you were;going
to let all the kids go if Jim came? Is that, is that
what you indicated?
MR. SCHNEIDER: We said right from the very
beginning -- ;
GARY: Yeah.
92
99
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~~ that's what was worked
out, that by twoby-two they're going to come right on
out indiscernible!.
GARY: How, how many kids do we have in
there?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, we - I donft
believe we came up with a number.
GARY: Yeah. You, you don't know how many
kids are in there?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't right off.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Like he said, there's.quite a
few.
GARY: Like what kind of ball park figure? I
have no idea.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I, I don't even know right
off, I really don't.
GARY: I mean, is it a hundred? -
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, there's not that many.
GARY: Yeah. I mean, I have no idea, yeah.
I mean --
MR. SCHNEIDER: But he will -- you know,
he'll give you that figure, he'll -- we'll go ge a
head count here sometime in between and, and make§sure
we have all that. I need to still get the names bf
some of these people. They've not all been around in
I
100
the same place and instead -- you know, I mean when I
got off the phone I was actually attempting to lay down
to try to recover a little energy --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- here, but I mean the
phone --
GARY: Well, how --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, the thing kept
on ringing and then no one's on it, but they probably
were on it but I don't -- who knows what was going on
indiscernible!. .
GARY: Yeah, apparently your, your phohe
there was having some problems. R
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I mean, the, thething
never stopped ringing, you know, and didn't want to
actually take it off the hook because, you know,iit, it
seemed like it worked once or twice --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, it was strange.
GARY: Well, we got it going now apparently,
yeah. Well, you know, maybe if, if, if you got aé
headache and you want to lay down for a while mayhe I
could talk to David. Maybe if I talked to David or a
while he -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's laying down right nbw,
you know, after all this time he has -- 5
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GARY: Yeah. j
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'd like to tell you the
truth, man, I'd just like to lay my head back here a
little bit and --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can you - I mean, if he --
how long do you think he's going to sleep?
GARY: I, I don't know. I mean ~-
MR. SCHNEIDER: If he, if he went to bed
about 2 o'clock or thereabouts, you know, it can't be I
too far away from, you know, that time, you know, eight
hours later, or even six, seven hours, huh?
GARY: You know, he -- the last time I saw
him was 2:00, 2:30 whenever it was he left here and I
don't know if he went to briefings after he left here
or what time he went to bed, I, I don't know. But this
whole issue doesn't revolve around Jim, that's what I'm
trying to tell you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll, I'll tell you what, you
know, I'm so -- the truth is I'm just, you know, can
you tell I'm tired and just so worn? I
indiscernible!.
GARY: Well, I'm, I'm tired too and I'll, and
I'll tell you what more than that, Steve, I'm just
really disappointed that we've, we've come to a, a road
block on this issue.
4
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! look it,
everything - give it a little time, you know, don't
rush it and push it indiscernible!.
GARY: Well, I'll, I'll be here and it's,
it's - it'll be that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, we've shown to youi
already, we've not done anything, you, you can keep "
your eye on us, we'll the doing the same, you know,
let's have a little trust.
GARY: Well, well, we do.
MR. SCHNEIDER: We're going to get this --
we're going to actually get this thing worked out. I
mean, we, we mean that. We're going to work it right
on through. j
GARY: And I think you've seen that on our
side.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I do, so you know --
GARY: Everything we've told you is true, we
haven't, we haven't done anything to, to, to -- i
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. So let's, let's keep
the relation going, you know, but if you, if you could
just give me a -- boy, I'd love to just, you know, lay
back maybe for an hour or two. If, if you guys -- if
you laid down yourself for just two hours or
something. .
GARY: Um-hum, okay.
l
103
1 MR. SCHNEIDER: You sound tired, I mean, I'll
2 tell you, if you can't tell I am, you know, my; my
3 mouth is dry, I'm -- my throat is hoarse --
4 GARY: Um-hum.
5. M. SCHNEIDER: -- I got.a terrible headache.
6 It's, it's just so hard to communicate, it is --
7 GARY: Um-hum.
8 1 M. SCHNEIDER: -- it's very hard. You know,
9 I mean I'm, I'm really having a real hard time, I am, I
10 can't emphasize that enough.
11 GARY: Yeah, yeah. You do sound tired.
12 MR. SCHNEIDER: I am, I'm worn out.
13 GARY: And you sound like you've been through
14 a lot of stress and I know it's a difficult situation
15 .in there for everybody. MR. SCHNEIDER:
16 Well, can you give me - maybe in the mean time why
17 don't you -- Gary, I'd, I'd really even like to have
18 you get some rest yourself.
19 GARY: Um-hum. Well, I'll, I'll be here when
20 you guys --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! don't you
~ have a cot or a bed or something you could just kind of
23 lay down there nearby or --
24é GARY: Well, no, I appreciate your concern
»25 and, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll be okay and I'll -- I
just --
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MR. SCHNEIDER: I really don't mind working
with you and talking with you now.
GARY: Well, I'm glad to hear you say that,
Steve and I've, I've kind of felt since last night --
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's not --
GARY: -- that you and I got along very well.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we have, I mean,
there's no, there's no problem there.
GARY: Sure, and I just -- I'm, I'm kind of
depending on you to explain that to David and I, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I will, but, you know, even
right now he's not -- even like me he's not with it,
you know, it's, it's just difficult and --
GARY: Yeah. Okay, well, listen let's do
this: I'll let you get a little, little rest.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I really -- I, I --
GARY: And I, I'll be here, if -- in --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: - theevent that I do lay down for a
minute when you ring if somebody else answers --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. .
GARY: -- they'll come and get me.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think it should work now if
you ring 863-5252, I really believe it will.
GARY: You want to make one more test on it
real quick?
I
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105
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, would you do that?
Just give me a call right back. '
GARY: Okay. If, if you don't hear my ring
-.-
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, just call you back.
GARY: -- in a few minutes, you call me right
back, okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I will do that.
GARY: Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: :Okay. I'll do that.
GARY: All right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Call me right away.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
GARY: Here we go.
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
Phone company call error signal.!
TELEPHONE OPERATOR: I'm sorry --
Dial tone!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #9: They've done
this again indiscernible!.
GARY: They have corrected the problem and
you should --
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Dial tone!
Unidentified male voice in background.!
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
!
.1016
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, great.
GARY: Okay. Now, that connection is
working.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That makes me feel a lot
better.
GARY: Well, me too because gap!.
MR. SCHNEIDER; Because that's been a real
problem all through the night.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It really bothered me.
GARY: Me -- bothered me too.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: Gap! Steve, listen --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gap! good, just give me a
little -- oh, man --
GARY: Okay. Give me, give me, give me a
ring when you rest up a little bit.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You make sure you get some
sleep so you -- you know, you're, you're about the same
place I'm at here.
GARY: Okay. That sounds like a fair deal.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gap! thanks Ji-- thanks
Gary.
GARY: Okay, Steve.
5 2Y
!
IQ7
MR. SCHNEIDER: I said Jim, didn't I?
GARY: No, no, you started to say Jim but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: -- you said Gary, that's fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Okay. Talk to you in!
a bit.
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Bye.
GARY: Bye-bye.
Dial tone!
GARY: Is it recording now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #10: Yes.
GARY: Time is -- we just completed the phone
call at 8:12 a.m. on --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #11: Good morning.
GARY: Good morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #11: IS Pat McGhee
there?
GARY: I'm sorry, sir, he's not at this
number. Are you trying to get the -- where is our
other number here?
Electronic noises! Dial tone! Phone
dialing! Phone ringing! -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello?
GARY: Yes, may I speak to David or Steve?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay, who's
4
this?
moment.108
GARY: This is Gary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Gary, wait one
GARY: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: David? Okay.
Go get Steve. It's Gary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. We're
getting him right now.
on hold.GARY: Okay.
Pause! Electronic noises!
GARY: What's that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #12: It'S a hold.
GARY: Oh, is that a hold?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #12: They put you
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Did you enjoy
that music? It was, it was a mistake.
itself.GARY: Where did that come from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The telephone
GARY: Oh. Who am I talking with?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:' Huh?
MR. GARY: Who is this? . -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who is this?
GARY: Yeah. I'm, I'm Gary.
f
92
._
K.
,..
92find out s
wasn't t TY
be friendly.
right now.
get Steve.UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
oon enough gap!i
109
well, you'll
GARY: Okay. Well, that's fine. I, I, I
ing to be intrusive, I was jus
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
GARY: Somebody going to get S
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
GARY: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
GARY: Great. Thank you very
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER: H8110, Gary?
GARY: Yeah, Steve?
M. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, in fact
laying down there.
from WayneGARY: Oh, Wayne, Wayne -- we
, he wanted me to call you.
MR. SCHNEIDER
GARY: Yeah,
MR. SCHNEIDER
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDEROh, really?t was trying to
Yeah, well --
teve or Dave?
They are, yeah,
They've gone to
much.
Sure.
I was just
got a message
I was told to give you a call.
No kidding?
Well, I don't know. Did you
I I
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?get ahold of Jim?f
11b
GARY: No, no, we're still in the same
situation. They want him to rest for a while, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, it sounds good, I don't
blame them.
GARY: Well, you know, I'm going to be gap!.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I have gap!.
GARY: I'm not going to tell you something
that, that's not going to happen, but did you, did you
-- you sound like you might have just gotten up.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
like 10 minutes ago --
GARY: Yeah?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I, I just laid down
- and then I heard my name
being called that I was to get to the telephone.
GARY: Oh.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
just going to pass out.So I
GARY: Yeah, well, I
didn't want to disturb you. I
hear from you but then --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: - then I got
said --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiwas just going to, I was
was, I was going to -- I
was going to wait to
the word that, that
scernible! we called --
GARY: -- call, call David or Steve.
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Ch, boy.
GARY: Maybe that's a misunderstanding from 1
our other phone.
MR. SCHNEIDER: YES --
GARY: I don't know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that could be. I think I'm
going to lay down if you don't mind.
GARY: Sure, that's fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Lay back down here a little
bit here.
GARY: Yeah, have you had -- you and David
had a chance to talk anymore about what we talked
about?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, because - no, he's been
laying down here.
GARY: How, how -- is his condition any
worse?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, it's the same.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, he, he never got
any sleep so --
GARY: Yeah, yeah. Does he have -- I think I
might have asked you that but I can't recall what you
told me. Does he have medications that he needs or --
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's okay, yeah --
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
Q I
112
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- everything's fine. Yeah,»
he's, he's all right. Thanks for asking. i
GARY: And Chrissie and, and Brian are, are,'
are still ready to come on out?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, they will be ready.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He wants -- but, you know, as
soon as you can --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- call him or talk to him
which will give me a few moments to --
GARY: Yeah. Well, we're, we're ~- you
know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- reviving here.
GARY: Yeah. We're, we're ready to, to
receive them at, you know, anytime you want --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right, okay, good.
GARY: -- like I told you before.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, once we start the
process we'll just keep on sending them out.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, there's, there's no
problem there at all.
GARY: Yeah, yeah. W
MR. SCHNEIDER: He just wants that assurance
and I, I know we can just keep right on going.
f 1
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GARY: Yeah, you know, and that, that
looks -- obviously you know the extensive media.
coverage and, and when they're seeing the kids come out
like it, it makes everybody feel that the situation --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: -- has gotten safer and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: -- that reasonable people can,can
come to reasonable solutions --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. Gary --
GARY: -- and that makes me feel good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - I'm going to go - if you
don't mind I'm going to go lay down for --
GARY: No, that's fine. Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: This time I'm
definitely -- yeah, what? Okay. Yeah, I'm going to
lay down and --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I definitely will be
talking to you just shortly.
GARY: Okay. ,
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay? ,
GARY: That sounds good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks, Gary. -
GARY: Uh-huh. g
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
1 1l
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Gary?
phonetic"114
GARY: Bye-bye. T
Pause! Electronic noises! Phne fin9$9
MR. WILKERSON: Yes, who is this?
ROBERT: This is Robert. Are you calling for
MR. WILKERSON: No, I'm calling for the C.P.
ROBERT: Who is this, please?
MR. WILKERSON: This is Bob Wilkerson
sp.!.
ROBERT: And who are you calling for, sir?
MR. WILKERSON: Anybody out there with a
supervisory rank.
GARY: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, Gary?
GARY: Yeah, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Did you get any rest?
GARY: I'm afraid not.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm afraid I didn't either.
GARY: You didn't?
MR. SCHNEIDER: NO.
GARY: Oh gosh, well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. So --
GARY: -- we're just going to have to troop
it out between the two of us here and --
then?MR. SCHNEIDER: So what's happened with Jim
I
115
GARY: Well, there's no -- been no change in
that. I'm hoping we're going to be able to locate him
soon but again, I told you I met some resistance from,
from gap! can you hold me a second?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
GARY: Sorry, I had something in my throat.;
You know, I'm still getting some resistance in terms
of, of them wanting to, to bring him right away, but
he'll be here later. I don't think there's any
question about that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. _
GARY: I'm, I'm hoping we can do that. But
I'd like to get --
' MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what kind of time do
you think we're looking at here?
GARY: I, I, I wouldn't want to pin down on *
a, on a time and then disappoint you later on, but I'm,
I'm hoping we can get him here pretty soon and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: - and we'll move forward. But in the
>
mean time I'd like to, you know, proceed where we were 1
when we left off and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Which was?
GARY: Well, we were talking again about the
two little ones and seeing what we could do to try to
arrange getting them out which I think is, is in
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keeping with what you folks wanted and we'd like to,"
we'd like to accommodate that. ' h
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hang on just a minute, Gary.
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just got another call here.
Just a minute.
GARY: Yeah, okay.
Pause!
Unidentified male voice in background.!
GARY: He still on the phone?
Unidentified voices in background.!
Electronic noises.!
GARY: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, Gary?
GARY: Yeah, Steve? V
MR. SCHNEIDER: Apparently, do you have it so
we can't call anywhere on the telephone or --
GARY: What's that?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Has our phone been -- have
you done something to the operator where we can't call
but your number? V
GARY: Yeah, I think they've, I think they've
captured the phone lines, you know, that's a -- kind df
a normal procedure they do out there on that stuff.
Have, have you just tried that and it's not working? -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. I was supposed to call
.
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someone gap! here and of course I can't get out to l
anybody but yourself.
GARY: Yeah gap! this, this just happened?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just happened, yeah.
GARY: It's, it's -- I mean, I wasn't aware
of that, but it's normally something they do in most of
these situations.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I guess I got to --
I'll have to call you back now indiscernible!.
GARY: Well, I'm here now.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
to you now. We got to -
goes on you guys -- look
all. I'll tell you what
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER:I
IWell, I'm not - I can't talk
this is bad. I mean as time
this is really not good at
I'm not happy.
I'll talk to you when I have
discussed it with some others here. Bye.
GARY: Okay.
Phones hung up!
GARY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #13: Is this I
indiscernible! airport?
GARY: Yes, it is, but this number is not ;
being used for airport business today. You may wantIto
try sap! - I
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringiqg!
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: H6110?
GARY: Yes, this Gary. May I speak to Steye?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Just a A
moment, please. -
GARY: Thank you.
Pause!
Unidentified female voice in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Gary?
GARY: Yes? ;
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: He's On the
other phone talking to someone else.
GARY: Okay. Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Gap! you
want to hold on just a minute?
GARY: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Okay.
Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #14: I put that
number on the top of the indiscernible!.
Unidentified voices in background.!
Pause! _ y
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #15: Hey, this is
Jim. I hope indiscernible!.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: COming?
He's coming.
GARY: Okay, thank you.
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Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED
wants to come out.
Pause!119
MALE SPEAKER #15: somebody
Unidentified voices in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED
what's taking so long,
you back?
GARY: I canFEMALE SPEAKER #2: I don't know
Gary. Do you want him to call
hold for a bit. Do, do you
think he'll be here shortly or --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: I don't
know. I wasn't the one that went to check to see where
he was so --
GARY: Okay.
come back to this area
to call me up?
UNIDENTIFIED
GARY: Okay,
UNIDENTIFIED
GARY: I'll,
from him, okay?
UNIDENTIFIED
right. Bye-bye.Okay. You, you expect him to
and then you'll, you'll tell him
FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Yeah.
why don't we do that then?
FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Okay.
I'll sit here and hope to hear
FEMALE SPEAKER #2= Okay. All
Unidentified voices in background.!
Tape 5, side B!
Phone rings!
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #16: Hello, Pat?
GARY: Who are you trying to reach, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #16: Pat McGhee?
GARY: He's not at this number today and
won't be. You may want to try gap!.
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Hello?
GARY: Yeah, this is Gary again. I was
waiting for a call from Steve. Did --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Just a
minute, just a minute.
GARY: Sure.
Unidentified female voice in background.!'
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Can YOU Sée
if Steve can come to the phone? Gary. Tell him it's
Gary.
Unidentified male voices in background.!
Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Pick up yqur
phone. He's still not able to come to the phone at
this time.
GARY: Okay. Does -- will he be coming to;
the phone in a little bit or -- ~
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Hopefullyv
Like I said, I just sent the message to him. I didnt
go myself. K
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GARY: Uhhuh. He's not in the area wherey
you are now? A
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: No.
GARY: Okay. Well, would you just tell hid
that Gary called and --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Okay.
GARY: -- he knows how to reach me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: All right.
1
GARY: Thanks a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Okay, bye.
GARY: Bye-bye.
Phones hung up! Phone rings.!
GARY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #17= Hello, is i
this Pat?
GARY: No. Pat gap!.
Pause! Phone ringing!
GARY: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, this is Steve
Schneider.
GARY: Yes, Steve, this is Gary again. *
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, how are you doing with
getting Jim?
GARY: Well, there's been no change in, in
that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: There hasn't?
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GARY: No.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And it's about 5:00 going on
five to 2:00?
GARY: Yeah, I've got 1:53.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: So, what, what, what's taking
place, because we wanted to get the process going again
and --
GARY: Well, like I told you, we're, we're
ready to start the process and we have been all day '
long.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Obviously, you know, I was
just on the other line, a phone call came through, I
was able to talk with them.
GARY: Uhhuh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And they asked me to call
them back and now that line's been cut.
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: I'm --
GARY: I, I thought you told me the lines I
were cut earlier?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they -- all of them 1
were. I didn't realize there was one last one. Y
GARY: How many lines do you have in that '
place?
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, with -- I don't -- l
should I -- you probably already know because none --
GARY: No, I'm --
- MR. SCHNEIDER: -- of the are working now.
GARY: -- I'm way back over here at the
airport. I don't --
M. SCHNEIDER: Gary, I'm going to tell you,
I'm, I'm -- I can understand -- we have -- look, they
asked me about you guys, I mentioned your name and I
mentioned Jim.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And I said these guys are
doing an awesome job with us, they want -- they don't
to see anymore loss of life and --
GARY: Well, that's right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and, and I told them that.
And I -- really, I said I have the highest regard for
these people as, as David does, he thinks, you know,
they have shown us a lot of, of decency and, and -- but
there's one thing if you could do for us, if you could
leave one line open for the spiritual aspect because I
really why I'm out here, why we're all here -- I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- is that they have
questions about our doctrine, I mean that's a major
thing to us. I mean, if we could gap!.
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GARY: Who was that you were just talking I
with, Steve? '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
GARY: You were referring to talking to, to
him or whatever. Who, who, who were you just talking
to about this?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean on the telephone?
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. What's that oh-oh,
here we go. What's happening? Just a minute. Whats
happening? Okay. I guess they're moving in on us,
huh?
GARY: Nobody's moving in on you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's -- Gary is telling me
nobody is. Talk to me, you people. Okay. They're,
they're checking it out.
GARY: I -- and you'll find out as before
that no one's making any efforts to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, Gary, I mean, you know,
it's obvious that --
GARY: Now, we've been, we've been through,,
we've been through this -- I
M. SCHNEIDER: -- you know I've never been,
in this situation, none of us have been like this in j
our lives, you know.
GARY: Well, I don't think anybody alive has
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been through events like, like what everyone's just
gone through here. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly. So, you know, its,
it's --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - it's something new and,
and, you know, one doesn't want to do anything rapidly
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and make mistakes and --
GARY: Well, you know, I know we, we Y
mentioned to you this several times and I want you to,
to understand we mean this. I don't know how to, to
make it more, more clear to you. Nobody's going to
come in there and try to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: David keeps -- Gary, I'm
sorry, I didn't want to cut you off --
GARY: That's okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- but David -- asking me
right now, how come Jim hasn't called he keeps on
asking?
GARY: Um-hum.
M. SCHNEIDER: I'm serious. Here's a
QUY " ~
. GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that, you know, he --
l» 92126
that's, that's what he's asking for.
GARY: Well, and, and I know David's, David's
your boss there and, and I'm -+ you know, candidly I"m
running into some problems with my bosses here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Why would that be so hard
when he actually gap!.
GARY: Let me explain it to you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: If you want to alleviate the
problem and you want to do the best, what is so hard
about getting an individual that, that was working so
well?
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, that's his -- one his
desires, to continue on in the process. It is nothing
against yourself. It's - i
GARY: No, I know, I know that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - it's just that, you know,
between the words that were shared between them, I'm
going to respect that with him.- The man already showed
me more than I ever dreamed could be possible for a E
human being to learn so I give him the respect in
saying that he would like to continue this negotiation
himself as he started it with, with Jim. '
GARY: Um-hum. "
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, it's nothing with
you. It's his desire. And what he, what he
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understands about that, all the whys, you know, that's,
that's -- he's showed me and told us both, you know,
some of the reasons but I want to be able to give that
and say well, well, let's continue to do that then.
And it's not that I'm not going to -- I'll continue no
talk to you, Gary, but with the, with the situation
with the children and, and continuing to work this omt
I'll, I'll talk to you, but he would like to talk with
Jim and, and --
GARY: I know that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- hear his voice again and,
and --
GARY: I know that. He -~ one of, one of the
things I have to contend with just like David, David
is, is, is the boss inside there. I have to contend
with some bosses here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you have, you have a
speaker phone where they can hear me right now?
» GARY: No. ,
MR. SCHNEIDER: I wish, I wish you did so
that they could hear what I'm saying, you're saying, ,
maybe they could make a judgment on that unless you
want to just keep going back to them or whoever they
are. . _
GARY: Well, I, I want to -~ if you let me
finish, what I want to explain to you is you told me
128
how David understood -- didn't understand why, why we
couldn't get Jim here. In the same token, I think, I
think you could understand that my bosses don't
understand why you can't just talk to me. They, they
-- from their point of view --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Because look, you're --
GARY: -- it's just as much --
MR. SCHNEIDER; -- on a side where you're
okay, you're not going to be in any trouble when this
is all over. We're in a precarious position dealing
with our own lives. That's -- I mean, it's a totally
different situation.
GARY: And I think you know that I wouldn't
do anything to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: If I were in your place I
would be saying the very same things to someone like
me, I would be, I, I can't disagree with you on that.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But being that we're in this
predicament and, and it's a nightmare of course --
GARY: Okay. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and we have the deepest
regret about the whole -- the loss of life with -- I
mean, we can't tell you enough. ~
GARY: Okay. Let, let me, let me do this.
I'm, I'm going to --
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: - I'm going to renew my efforts to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
GARY: -- to see if I can appeal the
situation. But when I go to my bosses, now I have to
be able to convey to them --
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
GARY: - the sense of how bringing Jim here
is going to make some, some, some positive influence --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
GARY: -- on events. h
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well, you tell them
that David he saw -- there was a -- they, they
started yesterday -- the whole negotiating process
started with Jim.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He did so well, his demeanor,
the attitude.
GARY: Well, I know, he, he did a wonderful
job. -
MR. SCHNEIDER: He really did, and, and the =
sincerity and --
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and David, he -- it's
nothing against you, but he began with the man and he
wanted to continue.
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GARY: Well, I, I understand, I understand
that, believe me. And believe me, I'm, I'm, I'm not
offended by that.
M. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: But, but again now, now, put yourself
in my shoes for a minute. Now, I've got to go to my
bosses.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I, I think you can do it, I,
I -- in fact I know you can, Gary --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- because you know that this
is still a volatile situation.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, like yourself we say
we want to do it and work out an arrangement where --A
GARY: Um-hum. -
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- not only the children are
spared but we all have a, a chance. And so, you know,
this is what we're, we're working for and I know you
are. You've, you've said many times and I believe you
when you say that there's no one out there that wants
more loss of life and, you know --
GARY: Well, there's, there's more than a
chance, there's absolutely no reason in the world why 1
WE can't --
' MR. scrmsxnsm Exactly.
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GARY: -- we can't --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I like hearing that.
GARY: .-- resolve this peacefully. And, and
I see no obstacle other than this unfortunate issue
that's developed. But, but Steve, if, if you'll listen
to me for a minute because this is very important.
Now, if I, if I go in to the bosses one more time,
okay, and I say listen, David is absolutely adamant
about talking to Jim, I have to be able to convey to
them how that, that process is, is going to
specifically -- I can't talk today -- how it's really
going to benefit the --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, here's --
GARY: -- what we're trying to do. I mean,
for example --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, let me -- here's
something that's going to benefit it.
GARY: Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER: If it's not done that way --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- well then we're at a total
loss and if you just want to --
GARY: Well, I, I know, I know you're saying
that, but can you be, can you be more specific with me?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, meaning that if, if, if
we don't follow through with that desire of his, and I
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don't think it's unreasonable, and if they don't want
to bend well then to me it's showing that they --
GARY: No, but it's not --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: -- a matter of bend. But you have to
understand all the bureaucrats out here, all the law-
enforcement officers, they don't deal in the realm of
the desire and understand, they're, they're more in the
area of some, some concrete --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I would agree with you
about the lack of understanding because --
GARY: Well, and I, and I want to try to help
them understand and I'm looking --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, like that's what
we're --
GARY: -- I'm looking to you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I believe that about the
bureaucrats too.
GARY: -- I'm, I'm looking to you to help me
to help them understand. Now, now, it's time that we,
we discussed for example how do you think we might be
able to move towards, towards resolving this situation?
If I can impart upon them that bringing Jim back is
going to start us down that path of, of, of settlement
and, and, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, David he hasn't spoken
133
to me about all the ideas but --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, but he starts
talking with Jim that he will develop --
GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that he will develop
indiscernible!.
GARY: - no, but you see, it's like we're,
we're, we're putting what came first the chicken or the
egg. If I can -- I tell you, I've talked to the bosses
and, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: This is a very strong desire
of a group that's --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- in a very precarious
situation. -
GARY: I know that, I know that. But, but if
I can demonstrate a benefit, and, and if you could be a
little more specific --
MR. SCHNEIDER: The benefit is that gap!
maybe all walk out of this place and sit down
ultimately and whatever else needs to be done for, for
the loss, loss of life.
GARY: Well, no, there's no question what
you're saying ultimately may be, of course, of course
we can do that, and, and --
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what I'm saying. But the best way we see it, the most
trustful way --
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- is to do it that way.
" GARY: Okay. Now, if, if we're able to do
this, we're ready to start with the process with the
children again?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he's speaking to me.
I'm sorry, Gary, just one second, one second.
GARY: Yeah, I'll hold on. Go ahead.
Pause!
M. SCHNEIDER: Doing this --
GARY: Huh?
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said he was doing this
with Jim to see how trustworthy and --
GARY: Um-hum.
-4 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- how the whole system would
operate, this is why. He's waiting to see -- and now
it's looking pretty bad, that's his statement.
GARY: Well, I, I wouldn't agree with that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And gap! if I were to gap!
to him what you've been telling me, that you've to go
to your bosses, you know, and how they're going to take
it, well, that's - that makes it even look and sound
worse.MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. That's -- well, that's
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GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, bottom line that's
what it sounds like.
GARY: Well, no, no. Now, we have to
understand --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, see Jim talked in a way
where he was supposed to be the man that was the one_
giving the word right all the way through, that he was
connecting with this agency, that agency, holding them
backV--
GARY: Well --
MR: SCHNEIDER: -- passing the word right on
from yesterday when it all began.
GARY: I think Jim worked very hard to
accomplish some very significant things concerning the
very tragic --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well gap! the trust that
David developed with him and let's, let's bring him
back. I'm, I'm sure that he would be a man --
GARY: But, but, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that would love to play a
part in that process indiscernible! have him.
GARY: -- he -- you're, you're -- I agree
with you, but you're, you're avoiding my, my need on
this too. I, I want to help you but I need you to help
me and what I need to show my boss is that hey, if we
I
136
bring Jim forward again, I mean this is what's
positively going to happen. I mean --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, do so.
GARY: - give you an example, okay? Just --
and, and this is something that we've been talking
about all day anyway. We talked about Chrissie and
Brian and, and that once we get them out we were going
to start the process. You said once they come out the
process begins and it won't stop until it's over. If I
was -- now, that's something you've already talked
about doing. This is not some sort of a, a new
concession or a new idea. If I were to be able to go
into my bosses and say listen, they assure me that if I
can get Jim here we can start this process and I've got
their guarantee, Steve has assured me that David says
that this is going to happen, then I think I've got a
real good chance to convince them that, that --
MR. SCHNEIDER; Well see, that's -- okay,
Gary, that's --
GARY: Don't you think that's, that's a
reasonable indiscernible!. -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's exactly what
David said last night. He -- you know what? When it
was suggested by Jim even to stop and get a little rest
--
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GARY : Um - hum .
F
137
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- David actually said to me
-- he was bothered because he wanted to continue to
indiscernible! the children out.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's the truth.
GARY: Well, I, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's honestly the truth.
GARY: -- I'm sure it is, but we're talking
about last night. Now, how_can we back on track right
now today?
MR. SCHNEIDER: By, by beginning again with
Jim --
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and continuing on and, and
if he wants to involve you and you're on the other line
or I talk to you or whatever else --
GARY: Well, I'll be involved --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, sure.
GARY: -- throughout this process.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
GARY: But, but can I go to my boss and tell
him that? Can I go to my boss and say that if we can
get Jim here that little Chrissie and Brian are going
to come out and the other kids --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Now you got it. Yeah, if we_
can get Jim there can, can he say to his bosses that
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little Chrissie and Brian gap! yeah, that's what we're
- that's -- he says that's exactly what we were doing
when we were talking with Jim. That's
indiscernible! - _
GARY: Okay. So they're, they're, they're --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we never wanted to stop.
GARY: -- ready to come out, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
GARY: -- and once they come out the
additional children will come out?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly, exactly. That's --
GARY: And we're going to try to replicate
essentially --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Here, I'm, I'm going to --
GARY: -- the process we did last night?
M. SCHNEIDER: -- hand you over to David,
okay, Gary?
GARY: Sure, that'1l be fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Here he is. Hi,
David?
M. KORESH: Hey Gary, listen --
. GARY: How are you feeling, David?
MR. KORESH: Don't worry. Look --
GARY: Yeah?
MR. KORESH: -- last night we had about four
or five different people calling all the time telling
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139
us what to do, right?
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
MR. KORESH= Yeah indiscernible!.
GARY: This was before, before Jim started?
M. KORESH: Well, during the time Jim - we
first contacted Jim, all right?
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: Now, when I established with Jim
who he was I told him, I said, look, now, you're,
you're all saying drop your weapons, come on out, I
says indiscernible! --
Unidentified female voice in background.!
MR. KORESH: -- we've got to do something
because Jim kept saying we got to develop a trust --
GARY: Right, right.
MR. KORESH: - you know?
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: So what happens is, is that it
came to the point where Jim said - he says, you know, »
"Look, don't talk to anybody else, don't negotiate with
anybody else." He said, "We're going to do this all F
the way to the end."
GARY: Right.
MR. KORESH: And so we started it. We had,
we had a little, we had a little trouble at the
beginning.
I
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GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But, you know, we finally got
our system going to get my babies out.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, I told him, I said,
now, you know, you keep your part of the deal and I'll'
keep my part of the deal, then once we get all the
babies out then we'll start talking about what we've
got to do --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- for the rest of them.
GARY: Um-hum, um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Now, last night Jim, Jim told
Steve that he was tired and he had to get some rest.
Now, he -- we -- he said, "Why don't you guys get some
rest and we'll -- " --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- " -- and we'll take care of
this in the morning?"
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: And, and it's -- I thought,
well, you know, let's -- why stop, you know? Because
the babies were sleeping anyway, we'd have to wake them
up --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- to get them ready.
1
141
GARY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: Now, okay. So okay, you know, I
agree, this is okay, you know, this is -- the ball is
on your side of the court. So now, I mean, you know,
you came on and you -- you know, you're, you're coming
in and saying trust you and all that and that's not
the, that's not the question.
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: The, the question is, am, am I
going to show that my integrity is to adhere to the
agreements that I've previously made.
GARY: Well, do you, do you think Jim would,
would leave me on the phone if he didn't think I had
the integrity and to, to talk and deal with you?
MR. KORESH: I, I think he left you on the
phone to do just that, to talk --
GARY: Yeah, to, to, to --
MR. KORESH: -- and he --
GARY: - not, not to keep you busy, but to
move forward with the groundwork that he had laid.
MR. KORESH: No, that's not what he said.
GARY: Well --
M. KORESH: That's not what our agreement
was.
GARY: -- the, the confusion I think lied in,
in the separate line that was going on with Wayne. And
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what Jim was meaning at that time was he wanted to be
sure we were staying on one line and talking to one
person.
MR. KORESH: Look, me and Jim talked --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- all day yesterday. I know
exactly what we talked about --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- and what we --
GARY: I know. You know, David, it's just
that we've, we've, we've turned this issue into a --
just, just a major stumbling block today and, and --
MR. KORESH: Because it is a point that I
want to see about you guys --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- to see whether you're just
wearing a mask or whether you're actually genuine human
beings with genuine human sympathy.
GARY: Um-hum. Well, of course we are.
MR. KORESH: See, there's, there's ministers
in this world that do a job --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- and they are, they are as
fake as a three-dollar bill.
GARY: Well, I, I understand that and --
MR. KORESH: Yeah, now you do understand
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that. Now, here's the deal. You're telling me you
don't want anymore death, but what you're showing me is
the propaganda to try to promote one's self involved in
a situation that deals with the lives of others. Now,
if you were on this side of the fence you would
understand what I'm talking about; if I was on your
side of the fence I would understand what you're
talking about because I am me. You see, that's why,
that's why that in the doctrine that I teach, I teach
it no matter how incriminating it is against me.
That's what I was trying to do for the agent next door,
I was showing him the truth about me.
GARY: What agent next door is that, Dave?
MR. KORESH: That was Robert Gonzalez and
Jeff and those guys. Now, the reason why, the reason
why, you know, we were waiting on you guys is because
like I said, we have a communication with somebody that
knows all things --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- the alpha and omega. And I
told Robert, I looked at him and looked into his eyes,
I says, "Robert, you know I've showed you the truth out
of the book, I am not going to hide anything from you.
And I says, "But now you got to make a decision, you've
got to do what you've got to do and I've got to do what
I've got to do." And I gave him every opportunity to
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know that there's a God in heaven that judges the
hearts of men and knows the minds of men. And I
thought and was hoping for sure he would choose to be
able to get with you guys and say look, the guy showed
me something out of the book, he's genuine and the
problem is we don't understand him and we need to come
and talk.
GARY: Yeah.
M. KORESH= And see, I did everything in my
power to avoid you gentlemen coming and doing what you
did. I
GARY: I have to apologize to you because I
don't know Gonz- I'm, I'm not with ATF and I, and I
wasn't involved in that process. I --
MR. KORESH: Well --
GARY: - I don't know all the background to
that.
MR. KORESH: Well, Jim's with ATP.
GARY: Right, but I'm just telling you I, I
don't, I don't want to give you the sense that I know
all of the background of this because, because I don't.
MR. KORESH: Well, I brought him into my
house and everything -- I
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- you know? I have, I have
nothing to hide as long as you let me open up the Bible
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GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- and see, if you'd listen to a
man's religion.
GARY: I think if we'd put sunshine on this
whole matter we're all going to be better off. I think
MR. KORESH: But --
MR. GARY: -- there's opportunity to have a
lot of things that, that you want to say and I, I think
we can help you do that.
MR. KORESH= Look, I know what I know and
obviously you know you don't know what I know.
GARY: I wouldn't begin to pretend to know
everything that's in your mind and in your heart,
David.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, the Bible is a big
book and the harmony of what the prophets have been
shown must be harmonized, otherwise men of this
generation cannot know that the prophets are in harmony
with themselves. Any organization that is not in
harmony with itself cannot stand. The churches because
there are so many of them is obvious proof that
somebody is wrong. If there is one God, he should be
worshiped as one God and he should have one people with
one name and one truth. And so God has in wisdom
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reserved a testament so that all men with open eyes and
open minds might see that that credential called the
servant of God must be able to plainly reveal the seven
seals in the light of the prophets. I didn't write
that. That was written long before I came into the
world and you came into the world. And so because it
is written, it is written that we might know and now
because I have been misunderstood it's not by those
who've heard me or opened the book and saw the words,
it's by those who refused to listen. So --
GARY: Um-hum, um-hum. Well, David, I know
you're -- '
MR. KORESH: How come Jim --
GARY: You know, you, you sound, you sound
like you're really hurting right now and I'm, I'm very
concerned for you.
MR. KORESH: How come Jim hasn't come in yet?
GARY: Okay. What I was trying to explain to
Steve, and, and I'm trying to help you to understand,
what my bosses -- they wanted him to have some sleep
and I told Steve, beginning more and more realized that
this is an absolutely critical item for you, but before
I can go in to my bosses and, and convince them that,
that by bringing Jim this is going to make a very
positive impact on the events.
M. KORESH: The children are going to be let
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out of here as long as Jim is communicating with me
like we agreed. -
GARY: Yeah, yeah. See, what they don't
understand, David, is, is, is why you're, you're
wrapping everything into one person, because Jim is
just a voice for, for the authorities here.
MR. KORESH: No, Jim is a person.
GARY: Of course he is.
MR. KORESH: He's not just a voice for the
authorities.
GARY: But, but he speaks for the authority
of, of the on-scene commanders here and, and that's --
now, now you're comfortable talking with Jim, I
understand that, and I understand --
MR. KORESH: Well, let me explain again,
Gary. He also has respect for the voice of the
authority that I speak in behalf of.
GARY: I have respect for that too Dave, I
have respect for that too and you know that.
MR. KORESH: So then why do you not adhere to
the original agreements? I mean, what is it? Are you
GARY: Well then, what, what original
agreement are you referring to?
MR. KORESH: Me and Jim to avoid a lot of
additional -- .
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GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- confusion and flak --l
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- we decided and agreed and
confirmed that we would deal with nobody else but --
GARY: Well, see --
MR. KORESH: -- Jim and that's why --
GARY: -- see, the on-scene commanders are .
telling me that Jim never, never made that, that
promise.
MR. KORESH: That's not --
GARY: He, he was going to talk with you and
work with you, but I think you, you put more into that
than what he said.
MR. KORESH: That's not true, Gary.
, GARY: Yeah? Well, I'll, I'll tell you what
I'd like to do. I'd like to reach out to Jim myself
and get a clarification on this. But now, for me to go
in and convince my bosses that hey, I've got to get Jim
here to talk to David, this is just an imperative so
that we can move forward and, and get back on track and
make, make, make some progress here so that we can all
resolve this situation --
MR. KORESH: Get the thing over with, yeah.
GARY: Well, we don't want to see anybody
else get hurt. For me to do that, can, can I tell them
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149?
that if, if we bring Jim here that we can start the
process again of the children getting them out?
MR. KORESH: Immediately.
GARY: Immediately, okay. I have, I have
your guarantee --
MR. KORESH: Immediately.
GARY: -- that if, if I can get Jim here --
MR. KORESH: Just like last night,
immediately.
GARY: Okay. I have, I have your word on
that then? _
MR. KORESH: You have God's word on that.
GARY: Okay. Well, I'll, I'll accept that
warmly. And okay, let me talk to them.
MR. KORESH: That's what we've been trying to
tell you all night long, Gary.
GARY: Well, I know, and it's hard for
me -- you feel so strongly about it it's hard for me to
try to explain to you the perspective from out here and
I, I think I've failed in doing that. But I want you
to understand and I hope you believe that there's no
malicious intent in that. It's just it's difficult for
the, for the bosses here to fully comprehend and
understand what's going on and, and I'm, I'm trying to
help them to understand. And I think we're making some
progress now, but you, you've given me something to
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which I can carry to them now and I can make a very
strong pitch, let's get Jim here from the hotel and
let's --
MR. KORESH: And let's --
GARY: -- and let's --
MR. KORESH: -- get these babies out of here.
GARY: Because you've, you've guaranteed me
now that we can start the process. How many kids are
there, David? I
MR. KORESH: You'll find out when you get
them all. '
GARY: Okay. _
MR. KORESH: There's a lot, okay?
GARY: Oh, there is? Do, do we need any
special -- I mean, are they all old enough to walk or
MR. KORESH: No, some of them are like
newborns.
GARY: Newborns, yeah, okay.
MR. KORESH: So --
GARY: What's gap! to do it like we did~
before, two-by-two or did you want to send more of them
out? .
MR. KORESH: Like -- just like Jim and I
agreed. ~
' GARY: Yeah. Is, is that the -- is that the
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easiest method to do it or, or is there other idea --
MR. KORESH= It establishes a greater line of
trust.
GARY: Okay, that's, that's good, good for
us. All right. Let me then go with that, David, go to
my bosses and, and discuss with them what we've talked
about. And I feel more optimistic that I've got
something concrete now rather than just, you know, we
have to talk, we have to talk. Now I've, I've got some
firm commitments.
MR. KORESH: Well, I went indiscernible!
this all last night.
~ GARY: well, it really didn't come out that
way to tell you the truth and maybe it was my
misunderstanding, but it, it - it's more clear now to
me.
MR. KORESH: All right.
GARY: And --
MR. KORESH: Once Jim gets on the phone and
he sends a van two more children are going to be there.
GARY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: See, now they, now they can know
that there's no people in the, in the, in the trailer
up at the front so we'll just decide whether he wants
us to drive them down to the water tanks or whether he
wants us to just drop them up at the front part of the
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property.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: S0 --
GARY: Okay. when, when he gets here
hopefully we can work those details out and so that we
can do it in a way that's satisfactory to everybody and
everybody feels good about it and we can make some
progress.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
GARY: Okay?
MR. KORESH: Thank you, I appreciate it.
GARY: Okay. well, well, are you going to be
there now where I can reach out to you on the phone?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, I'll always be here,
that's - I ain't going nowhere.
GARY: Okay. Are you able to walk around?
MR. KORESH: I can't move.
GARY: Really? Do you have any extra
medications that, that you need or something?
MR. KORESH: No, I m doing all right.
GARY: Okay. We'd like, we'd like to get you
out there to a hospital as soon as we can.
MR. KORESH:A No, I don't, I don't know if
that - do any good anyway.
GARY: Well, I, I think - we don't want you
to suffer an injury that's going to take your life, you
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know, I mean --
MR. KORESH: Gary --
GARY: - you suffered an injury.
MR. KORESH: -- you know, this old world --
GARY: I know, I know.
MR. KORESH: - some ATF agents have died,
right?
GARY: That's right.
MR. KORESH: I'm no better than they are.
GARY: And you're no worse and, and, and
there's a lot of bloodshed that happened today and -- I
mean yesterday and believe me, we don't want to see
anybody else die from wounds received. It doesn't --
that's not going to bring back the lives of anybody
else who --
MR. KORESH: You know, you know what? You
know what one of the greatest pains there is, is when I
look out a window and see those, those young men laying
out there --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: and to think that if it'd
been on a different situation we could have been good
friends. I
GARY: Yeah, I think you're right.
MR. KORESH: You know --
GARY: You're right.
. ' 154
MR. KORESH: - that's, that's what hurts.
GARY: Yeah, yeah. well, we have to make a
commitment to go on and, and making things better than
they were and learn from the mistakes of the past and
indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH: well, the thing is is that man
never learns the mistakes of the past.
GARY: Yeah, I don't know, I don't know.
MR. KORESH: In the book of Zefenia it talks
about the Lord
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: being in a certain nation that
would not receive instructions, you obeyed not the
voice says the just lord in the midst thereof and you
will bring indiscernible! for his judgment
indiscernible! to light every morning but the unjust
will know no shame. Talks about a person revealing the
seals, you know?
GARY: Well, let's hope that we, we've, we've
learned from our mistakes at least to the point that we
can avoid anymore bloodshed in this situation, okay?
MR. KORESH: Okay. So give me a call back
then, all right? Y
I GARY: Okay. We'll be calling you back as
soon as I have a chance to talk to the bosses.
MR. KORESH: Tell the bosses to give us some
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lines again, all right?
GARY: Okay. Well, I'll to them. Let's --
I'm working on Jim first, okay? L
MR. KORESH: Okay. Thank you.
GARY: Good enough. Bye-bye.
MR. KORESH: Bye.
Phones hung up!
end of tape!
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BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS A
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TAPE #6
2/28/93
note: tapes 4 and 5 dated March 1; tape 6 may be
misdated as Feb. 28.!
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Tape 6!
DAVID: Okay, here I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: David?
DAVID: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. Well, I've
got some good news for you. h
DAVID: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But rather thank
me saying it, I think I have somebody here that maybe
can explain it to you a little bit better. Okay?
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: David? Hey, this is Jim.
DAVID: So, what are you doing?
JIM: Hey, buddy, how you doing?
DAVID: Well, I'm, I'm wondering what, what s
going on.
JIM: Oh, shoot, I've been kind of worried
about you. I've been kind of out of touch and I
apologize. I know Gary's been helping you. Let me
tell you what happened. The commanders wanted me to
get some rest. You know, one of those agents I knew
pretty good.
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JIM: And I was kind of upset about it. And
they wanted me to get some rest, you know. And -- but,
listen, and then after that, I went by Human Services
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to see if the kids were okay. And I'm sorry it took so
long. How have you been getting on? '
DAVID: Well, you know, I'm laying here.
JIM: Still can't move?
DAVID: No.
JIM: Geez.
DAVID: But the deal, like I was telling him,
you know, I told him I made, I made an agreement with
you.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: And I'm not going to break that, I'm
not going to break that at all. So --
JIM: I know you're -- _
DAVID: And I realize you needed sleep last
night, you know. So I told him, I said well, we can
take it up in the morning.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: So --
JIM: But, you know --
DAVID: -- what we was doing, right?
JIM: Right. Buddy, you know I wouldn't give
you anybody that, you know, you couldn't trust and --
DAVID: Well, that's not what we agreed on.
I probably could trust this guy, but, you know, it's
not a matter of us trusting somebody or someone saying
trust me. The matter is, is we made a deal and we've
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been having calls from all these different directions
with people telling us what to do. H
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Wanting us to make a deal with them.
JIM: Sure, I understand.
DAVID: You know, you can't - you know,
we're not bookies, we don't do that kind of deal.
JIM: Yeah, I understand. But --
DAVID: S0 ~-
JIM: Gary -- listen, let me tell you,
David, that Gary did a real good job. He went out here
and, you know, he's got all these commanders here.
And, I mean, just bunches of them, and he really went
out on a limb and he just said look, David wants to
talk to Jim and, and David's going to work with us, but
you've got to -- he wants to talk to Jim right now.
And so, he, he really went to bat for you. He's a good
guy. It's -# I have a lot of responsibility, just like
you do. You know, a lot of things on my shoulders,
too, and just like you, and I sympathize with your
position. -
And so -- Gary told me that, you know, if I
came back, that you promised to send some kids out.
And, of course, I knew you would anyway.
DAVID: That was our original agreement
anyway.
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JIM: Right. Well, I » my reply was hey, I
already know that. I mean, you don't even have to tell
me. The guy is as good as his word and his word is
golden. And I remember -- in fact, I thought last
night that, you know, maybe Chrissy and Brian would,
you know, get out after I left. But, hey, that's okay.
We can, we can do it now. And once Gary got the I
commanders together, I've already told them to set up
the shuttle cars and, you know, get it ready.
I said David wants to do it and that's the
way we're going to do it. So, you know, they're
getting the cars ready down there and, you know, just
so we can kind of get together on it. But, listen,
I'm, I'm kind of feeling for you, you know. I know
you've got a big responsibility with all your people in
there and I'm sure it's weighing pretty heavy on you.
DAVID: Well, I'm hoping that what you read
in the Bible last night was weighing heavy on you.
Jim, I'm going to win, okay?
JIM: Yeah. We're all going to win.
DAVID: No, we're not all going to win. You
see, if we don't confess to, to God that we don't know
something, you know --
JIM: Yeah. -
DAVID: - then we're in trouble, 'cause,
see, that's the whole thing, what the seals are about.
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It's a test, a test to every man on earth that
professes godliness.
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: And, now, you heard those guys last
night on the radio. You heard these teachers and
scholars.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: You hear what their explanations are?
JIM: Oh, yeah.
DAVID: Stuttering and sputtering and they
don't know what they're talking about. Why don't they,
you know, turn it off?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Okay. Now, these guys - you're
going to put your soul in the trust of these men that
don't know what they're doing?
JIM: I'm not going to do that. I'm not
going to do that.
DAVID: Yeah. Well, the thing of it is is
that there are thousands who do. Now, you know, I,
I've got me a group of people, right?
JIM: Right.
DAVID: And I've, I've taught them the first
seal and I taught them the second seal, the third and
the fourth. I explained to them after the fourth seal
things change 'cause, see, there's only four beasts.
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In the first four seals the beast is coming. See, now,
there's a meaning to that.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: But there is a real meaning to it.
But the fifth seal is a sad thing for the world because
it's a seal that talks about -- and I beheld when the
lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar, the
souls that have been slain for the word of God and for
the testimony which they held, crying to God, saying
oh, Lord God, how long will not avenge our blood upon
those who dwell upon the earth?
JIM: Hmmm.
DAVID: You see, someone died 2,000 years ago
so that man can have a chance to learn the truth about
condemnation. Somebody died so that man could admit
they don't know what they're doing and they would
listen and learn. And so, when you read the Book of
John, all through the Book of John, Jim --
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: -- it's always being said of Christ
that Christ -- I can - myself through nothing, but
that which I receive of my father that I speak, for the
doctrine is not mine, but it's my father's. See, they
didn't understand that 2,000 years ago.
JIM: Um-hum. i
DAVID: So, heaven tried to make it a little
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easier this time so that John the Revelator wrote that
when the Gentiles are going to be judged, it's going to
be based on the same truth the Jews rejected. It's
going to be according to the father giving to his son a
book. So that you can now know the doctrine is not my
own, it's my father's, you know. I, I do not speak of
myself, but what the father has given me that I
received.
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: And so, that's why in these symbols
it's so clear that when I come in the volume of the
book that's written to me, I have to show you from the
writings of all the prophets what God has already told
them about me. Otherwise, I'm nothing.
JIM: Yeah, I understand.
DAVID: You can't believe flesh and blood,
you have to, you have to pass the test. You have to
stand up to the credentials.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now, the fifth seal, you know, in
Isaiah 26, it says we have a strong city. Salvation
will guard our plentiful walls and bulwarks. It says
open you the gates that the righteous nation which
keeps the truth may enter in, cause that will keep him
in perfect peace whose mind has stayed on me, oh God,
because he trusteth in me. It says trust in the Lord,
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1 for the Lord is everlasting strength. So bringeth down
2 them that dwell on high. Yea, the lofty city, Babylon,
3 he'll bring it down, even to the dust, for the feet o
4 the poor and the needy shall trod it underfeet.
S It says let David be showed to the wicked.
6~ Yet, will they not learn righteousness? In the land of
7 uprightness they would deal unjustly, for they would
Bi not behold the majesty of the Lord. Lord, when thy
9 hand is lifted up, they will not see. You know, the
10 father upholds his word, don't he?
11 JIM: Right. _
12 DAVID: But they shall see and then they
13 shall be ashamed for their anger against thy people.
14 It says Lord, we've been in pain. We've been in pain
15 as a woman in travail. It says we have not wrought any
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17 of the world fallen. It says but by dead men shall
18 arise with my dead body. Awake he that dwell in the
19 dust. Then --
20 JIM: David --
1 21 DAVID: I know it sounds like poetry to you,
i 221 doesn't it?
I _23 JIM: No. Listen, I just want to --
24 DAVID: You all are going to kill us.
25 JIM: No, no, no.
} DAVID: Because - now, listen, Jim --
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JIM: We wouldn't do that. We're not going
to do it.
DAVID: Jim, let me explain something. You
know, you know that I can't lay here, you know, too
many days before, you know - I mean, the infection's
already in me, okay?
JIM: But, David, we're going to resolve
this.
DAVID; No, let me explain something. You
know, that's why I kept telling Gary that, you know,
last night I shared Psalms 89 with you, didn't I?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: You see, inspiration is
for God to tell men the future. The same
created heaven and earth, by his word, is
who foretells the future and brings it to
JIM: Umhum.the ability
God who
the same God
pass.
DAVID: And so, God forewarns men by sending
prophets, and that's already been done. But the Jews
would not receive the testimony of those men. Well,
so, finally, the New Testament tells them that now
everybody is responsible. Now all the Gentiles can be
responsible for knowing and believing these truths that
the Jews rejected. So, now we've come tothe time, you
know. Seven seals is the big thing now we're talking
about.
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JIM: Right.
DAVID: I cannot consent to your laws and
your system because my laws and my system is higher.
But don't get me wrong, don't, don't think that I
liberally literally or deliberately try to break the
laws of the country or the nation because, as I said
before, this nation was blessed because it, it
vindicated the principles of the Ten Commandments.
JIM: I understand.
DAVID: But what happens is when God's truth
comes into the world, no man is excused from opening
his eyes and seeing what God of heaven requires. On
the currency of this nation's currency it says, in God
we trust. Okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now, are we talking about my God that
sits on the throne? Are we talking about giving to God
what is God's and giving to Caesar what is Caesar's?
What are we talking about here?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Are we talking about the god who, who
has seven seals which are a mystery until there's time
no longer? Well, that's what we're talking about, Jim.
JIM: Yeah, I understand. ~
DAVID: And now people, they don't, they
don't understand because they choose not to.
92w. 92
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JIM; Hey, David, hold on just a second.
What did you say? Okay. Talking to someone else.! I
hear the kids, are they okay?
DAVID: Who's crying over there? Who's
crying? Who's crying? Look, I can't -- who's crying?
Oh, it's Bobby. .
JIM: Bobby? How old --
DAVID: They're just, they're just typical --
JIM: How old's Bobby?
_ DAVID: Bobby's -- oh, it's Star?
JIM: Star?
DAVID: Star is three.
JIM: Three. They just hollered at me and
told me the car was ready.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: 'And so you might want to just, you
know, start getting the kids ready --
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: -- to, you know, get their coats and --
it's kind of cold out. I've been out and it's a little
cold and --
DAVID: Well, they've got jackets and we'll
JIM: Get their jackets, yeah.
DAVID: You want us to drive them to the
water tank, right?
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JIM: Yeah. If we could do it, it would --
DAVID: Okay. i
JIM: That'd be the best, I think. Is --
DAVID: Darryl's coming, right? Here, let me
let you talk to Sita.
JIM: Let me try to set that up, okay?
SITA: Hi, Jim.
JIM: Sita?
SITA: Yes.
JIM: How are you?
SITA= I'm doing fine. How about you?
JIM: Well, I'm doing fine. Listen, I've
got, I've got the car ready to go, but just let me
check on Darryl, okay?
SITA: Okay. All right.
JIM: I don't know if he's going to be
available, okay? But let me tell you this. I won't
send anybody that I can't vouch for, okay? I give you
my word now. I'll send somebody. It's somebody
that'll be just as good, just as trustworthy. Okay?
You can trust me, Sita, now.
SITA: Okay.
JIM: Okay. So -- and I will tell you
beforehand whether it's him or not, but I will screen
whoevers going to go.
SITA: Okay.
.
¢
92O
JIM: Do you understand?
SITA: Yeah.
JIM: Okay. Take your time, a few minutes,
get them ready, coat -- it's cold, coats on, you know,
and, and give them some hugs and stuff and -~
SITA
get some extra
JIM:
SITA
JIM:
SITA
JIM:
SITA
number.
JIM:
grandparents?
SITA
JIM:
' SITA
JIM:
SITA:
JIM:
SITA
JIM:
SITA
JIM:Is it okay, I can bring - they can
clothes for them?
Absolutely, yes, whatever you want
Okay.
Yeah.
Their name is Brian and Scott.
Okay. l
And I'll just give you the phone
Okay. The phone number of their
Just a minute. I'm
Go ahead.
Hello?
Yeah, go ahead, Sita.
Scott and Chrissy 5-
Scott and Chrissy.
-- Mabb.
Spell that for me. I
MA-B-B.
Okay.sorry.
S it MAB?
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SITA: And their phone number is 605923- t
2641. '
JIM: Okay. All right. You get, you get
them ready and, you know, after -- David said that
we're just going to, you know, go two by two.
' SITA: Yes.
JIM: So, you get those - them ready. And
then once they go out, you know, you can take a few-
minute break because we're going to, you know, in
between. But then you can start, you know, who, who
you want to send out next and, you know, get their
coats and stuff. You know what I mean?
SITA: Yeah. I
JIM: I mean, we'll have a little time, but,
you know, have somebody else kind of maybe help the
kids cause you're busy. You know what I mean. And
it'd be easier, see, in the daytime.
I SITA: Oh, wait, wait.
DAVID: Hey, Jim.
JIM: Hey, David.
DAVID: We -- when we -- we've got to send
Patron and Jenessa --
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: - because they're, they're, they're
the, they're the same brother and sister of Camaray and
Landon.
i 1
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JIM: Oh, absolutely. Okay, yeah, that's
great. n
DAVID: I'm sorry about that.
JIM: That's no problem.
DAVID: Listen, Patron's four months old.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: A car seat and --
JIM: How about if I have a lady agent?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: You haven't seen #-
DAVID: You better bring some formula.
JIM: Oh, we'll get some formula. And the
lady agent, would that help you?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Sita can hand the four-month-old to the
lady agent?
DAVID: Yeah. You know, the old bruiser guys
may not know how to deal with a four-month --
JIM: You know what I'm saying. They're kind
of rough.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Okay, I'll set that up. And how old's
Jenessa?
DAVID: Jenessa, how old is she now?
Talking to someone else.! Five-and-a-half.
JIM: Five, okay.
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DAVID: Oh, she's eight. I'm sorry.
JIM: Make sure they've got warm stuff,
David.
DAVID: Yeah, we'll dress them warm.
JIM: Okay. And then maybe you can have
somebody other than Sita, after you decide and identify
who the next two are -- I think we could do - or Brian
and Chrissy --
DAVID: You already know Sonja.
JIM: Oh, sure. '
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Yeah, she can get Brian and Chrissy
ready or something.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: We want them to have time to get their
warm coats and, and kiss their mom. But, you know, we
want to, like you said, just keep it going and --
DAVID: Right.
JIM: And, and I've jumped their bones in
the -- on the commander's office about that stuff we
had last night.
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JIM: You know, where the car wasn't ready?
DAVID: Yeah. -
JIM: Remember, we had that? I said look, I
mean, David's being straight up and you send this car
-
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I18
with no radio and then we can't call them, you know,
and they're late, you know. So, I've told them you get
all the cars there, that's what David wants, and he'll
send them out. Okay?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: All right, Buddy.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Patron, four months old, and Jenessa?
DAVID: Patron and Jenessa, yeah.
JIM: Okay. Hey, listen, this is great.
What you're doing here benefits everyone. This is
tremendous.
DAVID: Well, like I say, there's a little
secret with these children.
JIM: Yeah .
DAVID: There's a ~- you'll see, you'll see
later. Psalms 8. If you'll read Psalms 8, you'll,
you'll see.
JIM: They're, they're beautiful. And this
is great. Patron and Jenessa want to see their
brothers and sister.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: But I went over there this morning and,
and, and Human Services, where they have the children,
and I went over it with them and those are all real
gentle people. And they, they're just real nice and --
§ ' v
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DAVID: Yeah, we know, we know some Of th0Se
ladies.
JIM: And they're taking care of them. S0, I
want you to assure their mothers and stuff. I mean,
they really are safe and dry and happy.
DAVID: Well, have you contacted their --
kin?
JIM: Yeah, we were having that done and, and
Human Services was helping us. And I haven't gotten
word back on that. Listen, we're going to bring the
kids over here to me, just like yesterday. Okay?
DAVID: It'S like --
JIM: And put them on the phone?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Let me -- yeah, let me do this, David.
I want to get these cars started and I want to walk out
here to these commanders. I don't want any glitches.
Okay?
DAVID: Which glitches?
JIM: Well, you know, mistakes where they
didn't hear me.
DAVID: Oh, okay.
JIM: Well, let me see if I can get a car
there for -- wait, hold on just a second.
DAVID: Okay.
' JIM: See if they'll run a car up to the
/
92_
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92water tower and
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
voice.
JIM:
I'm sorry--92
20
notify them. Hey, how's Steve doing?
Hello?
Steve.
Jim, how you doing?
I'm great, buddy. How are you?
Not bad. I'm glad to hear your
Well, I was kind of worried about you.
STEVE: I, I - you know, I told Gary we
appreciated him, and we did and everything, but David
definitely wanted to speak with you. He started it and
everything, and we kept on trying and every way
possible, you know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We've got to get
B CHI.
STEVE: SO --
JIM:Yeah. Well, look, I'm sorry. I told
David what happened. And, you know, they told me I've
got to get some rest.
STEVE = Right .
JIM:
you know.I knew, I knew some of those agents,
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM:
hospital to seeAnd, and I wanted to stop by the
some of these other guys.
7'
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STEVE: Oh, I'm sure.
JIM: And you'll be glad to know that they're
all doing good.
STEVE: Good. Good, I'm glad.
JIM: I mean, they're all talking, you know.
STEVE: Great.
JIM: And all of the agents feel pretty,
pretty good. They're all talking and there's no -- I
can tell you there's no hate in anybody's heart out
here.
"STEVE: Right.
JIM: And they're just saying --
STEVE: That's how I felt.
JIM: We talked to them today and I said
listen, you know, those folks out there went through
the same thing and they're suffering, too, you know.
And they were all saying - one thing they're all
thrilled about was these kids getting out.
STEVE: Right. That's good.
JIM: And so, you know, I just gotta just say
I think it's great. And I'm sorry I was late.
STEVE: That's, that's okay.
JIM: But I went by Human Services --
STEVE: Yeah.
- JIM: -- and I wanted to see how the kids
were doing.
92
22
STEVE: Right .
JIM: And that's all squared up, so -e
STEVE: Good.
JIM: -- you can tell the moms that.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: What happened was, Gary went out on a
limb here. He got, he got out with these commanders,
man. He, he made a big stink, you know. '
STEVE: He did, huh?
JIM: He said man, you know, we're trying to
work this out, and he says I'm trying to work with
David and Steve and, you know, he says these guys are,
are not, you know, tricking us, they're keeping their
word and, and said, you know, I want you to get Jim
over here and all that stuff. I
STEVE: Right.
JIM: Again, he went out on a limb for you.
STEVE: I, I believe it.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: I, I told him I really had a, you
know, a great appreciation for, you know, his -- I told
him don't be offended or, or -- it's nothing against
yourself and, you know, David wanted -- he started
talking with you and he liked the rapport. And you're
an awesome listener.
JIM: well, listen, you know, it's hard for
f
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me to be here all the time, and that's why Gary, you
know, or somebody else -- you know, I didn't want to .
give you anybody to talk to that I didn't trust 1,000
percent.
STEVE: Right.
JIM: And, and I think the proof's in the
pudding when he goes out and --
STEVE: I'm sure.
JIM: -- battles those commanders. You know,
they'll probably bust him two ranks when this is over.
STEVE: David just said to me because of the
way you've been, you know, in Isaiah 55:3 it says hear
and thy soul shall live. And, I mean, that's the,
that's the main -- there's one of the main keys right
there.
JIM: Yeah. Well, how, how are you feeling?
Are you okay?
STEVE: Yes, yes.
JIM: Did you get any rest?
STEVE: By the way, yes -- but, no, I didn't.
I laid down for about a half hour. I couldn't sleep.
I, I tried to a couple times, but the phone was ringing
and --
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: One thing that, you know, he was
disappointed and I was that all lines were cut off and
we weren't able to -- the one thing I guess we wanted
-- a lot of these want him to reply and he can t
now You know, there's a number of challenges on the
radio back to him.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: And I was wondering lf what would
the -- Jim, what do you think, what would be the
possibility --
JIM: I'm sorry, wait They're hollering
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Wait a minute The car, the car
moving Okay. All right
STEVE: Not past the water tower now
don't want anything past the water tower
JIM: Okay, I'm sorry
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Tell me
STEVE: Yeah?one thing
JIM: Is he still bleeding a lot
STEVE: No, he's not No he's not
JIM: Okay. You've got -- do you -- look, I
know I asked you this yesterday
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: And you've got -- I mean, yesterday was
a bad day for all of us
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he's
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25
STEVE: Right.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
.appreciate it.
JIM:
know.
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE:
JIM:But I can arrange to send you in Some
.c1ean gauze pads and, and, and, you know --
: We've got plenty of that.
Are you sure?
: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I definitely
We could just hand it off to Sita, you
We have a lot. '
Okay.
Believe me, we do.
All right. I just, just want to make
Yeah.
-- because he's, you know, he sounded
to me today and I --
STEVE: Well, he was, you know, the
not really slept the entire day or night
talking and talking, so he's real hoarse
know, just -- I tell you what, I was so tired
hours ago, but it seems like I've rebounded atruth is
and he's
and, you
a couple
little
bit. I don't k hnow w y, you know, lacking sleep, but,
out of it.yeah, we're trying to still, you know, make the best
JIM: Hold on, Steve. Excuse me. Okay,
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yeah. Is Sita there? Well, tell David, you can just
tell him for me -- '
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -- he's got the four-month-old
Patron --
STEVE: Right.
JIM: -- and I've told him I was going to try
to get a lady agent to, to help with her, but I don't
have one.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay? So, I told the commander to come
in and get me an agent who was kind of gentle, you
know.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay? And this little baby, you
know --
STEVE: Right.
JIM: -- has got to be --
STEVE: Little baby --
JIM: -- handled with kid gloves.
STEVE: He was saying that they don't have a
female like they hope, but he wanted -- he asked for
the most gentle man there. He's smiling.
JIM: Huh?
STEVE: He says tell them to send Gary.
JIM: Yeah. Well, that's right. But,
0 v
2'7
anyway, we'll take care of that.
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
right now, Sita
JIM:
STEVE
that already orOkay.
The car is at the water tower.
It's there now?
It's there now.
Okay, the car is at the water tower
She's ready.
Okay.
And you have the agent and -- all
-- or you just want to - okay, I guess
you've got the paper all ready.
JIM:Okay.
' STEVE: Okay. And, plus, I guess she'll be
handing the addresses off.
JIM:Yeah, that'd be great. Sure.
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM:And we'll have them come over here and
let them talk to you.
STEVE: Right. Okay, good. So, you're able
to call through here, of course?
JIM: I tell you, Steve --
STEVE: Yeah?
JIM:-- it's unbelievable out here. I mean,
you've got, you've got every reporter in captivity out
here.
STEVE: I believe it.
Q
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JIM: And, you know, there's just people
everywhere and, you know, it's even hard -- you know
how many times we got cut off yesterday.
STEVE: Right.
_JIM: Remember when all that stuff --
STEVE: Well, that was the telephone. I
mean, right up until now, we tried everything. We had
a number of cords, you know, like with those stupid
little connectors in between, and somebody would step
on the thing. "
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: Then we'd have to have somebody go
find out where it was loose. And that happened right
through until -- through the middle of the night even.
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: Got to be -- and, finally, we just
says well, look, don't we have one cord that'1l do all
of this? And, finally, we did and this is why we got
something clear now.
JIM: Well, the technology.
STEVE: It seems like we're missing there a
little bit.
JIM: David said that --
STEVE: David, David's saying something.
Just a minute.
JIM: All right.
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STEVE: Yeah, he says if you could bring a
decent telephone and 150 feet of cord, that we'll pay
for it even.
JIM: Oh, no, I wouldn't ask you to do that.
I think we'd need a lot more cord than that.
STEVE: Even this one here --
JIM: Oh, oh, that's what you want?
STEVE: Yeah, yeah.
JIM: Okay. We can probably arrange it.
STEVE: Just stop by Radio Shack or anything,
you know, we'd more than be happy to pay for it.
JIM: Oh. Let me see what I can --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -- check on for that. Maybe we can do
that.
STEVE: This thing here, I mean --
JIM: That's the one -- what is it, is it
like a Princess phone or something?
STEVE: Actually, the one we've got here, it
says Bell South Products and it's, it's been used a lot
and I think it's been dropped and I think that's part
of the problem.
JIM: That's why it kept cutting off
yesterday?
STEVE: Yeah. I didn't know if it was
!
30
half the phone, and I knew the connection, too, because
I saw people stepping on the cord and then all of a
sudden it'd be gone and --
JIM: Where've you got it, in the hallway or
something?
STEVE: Yeah. Well, right now I'm in the
hallway because, you know, I'm, I'm trying to --
David's here, just off to the side over here into the
room. So --
JIM: Okay. Hold on one second.
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: I want to check on the telephone. Pass
that on to the commander, I'll talk to him about a
telephone later. Okay, I'll just -- I've got to run
that through the commanders.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Well, I'm sure -- well, we'll talk
about it, okay?
STEVE: Okay. You want to call me back then
later?
JIM: Well, yeah. Is Sita going out now?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: Okay. Why don't you -- why don't we
hold on just till she walks out the drive -- once she
hooks up with the kids, just here in a minute with the
agent, then we can -- I can stop. And then David said
__ _ _ Q
1
92 , 2 after the other.
3
4 STEVE:
5 JIM:
6
7 STEVE:
8 JIM:
9
10 Scott or Brian.
11 then we'll have
12 me, you know --
13 STEVE
14 JIM:F
K
15 them.
. 16 STEVE:
17 JIM:
18 STEVE:
19 JIM:
20 okay?
21 STEVE:
22 JIM:
,2:-x
I24, STEVE:
'25
JIM:
9292!
31
he wanted you to, you know, do this one-two, you knvw,
So, Sita said she was going to get
Sonja to get the other two kids ready.
Okay, good.
And then so after we bring - once we
hook up on the road --
Right.
- then, then you and I will break and
then you'll, you'll identify I think it's Chrissy and
And you'll bring coats and stuff and
the other children brought over here to
Okay.
- so you can, of course, speak to
Right.
Or their mom can.
Okay.
And, you know, and then we'll get back,
Right. Okay.
Things are going real good and I just
lwant it to continue that way.
Yes. Well, that's what we want, too,
so I'm sure it can.
Steve, how many cars am I going to need
, 0
32
to line up? I mean, about the children. How many have
we got left, can you tell me?
STEVE: How many cars are you going to need
to line up to get all the children out that are left
Talking to someone else.! He says he'll [gap] little
by little. He's smiling.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
delay.
STEVE
it's, it's, you
' JIM:
'STEVE
JIM:
STEVE
talk to you.
JIM:
STEVE
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID
what I'm saying?Oh, okay.
We'll have to keep doing it that way.
That's fine.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm just, I'm just trying to avoid
I know, I understand, but for us
know --
No, that's all right.
Yeah.
That's great. Those, those kids --
Okay, just a minute. He wants to
Oh, sure.
Here he is.
All right.
Jim.
David. ~
Jim, see, I'm on you guys side, see
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JIM: Right, you are.
~ DAVID: So, it's like this. There's a lot of
people here, right?
JIM: Right.
DAVID: And you all think that they believe
in me, right?
JIM: Right.
DAVID: But, like it says in the Gospel, he
that believeth in me believeth not in me, but believeth
min him that sent me.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
' DAVID: In other words, we cannot receive the
seal by accepting any man's flesh. We have to accept
the word, what's written in the book. So, the thing of
it is is like this. Every, every, you know, the slower
we make this, you understand what I'm saying?
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: The more time it gives the people
here to make a decision, you know. So, you know, you
just may see a few adults come out, too. '
JIM: Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course.
DAVID: You see what I'm saying?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Cause these people are facing
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1 34
realities that, you know, what they're learned in the
Prophecies is one thing, but now they're facing'
reality.
JIM: David, you're, you're, you're a wise -
man and --
DAVID: Well, what I'm saying is this. I'm
saying that, you know, you know, if I go, then, then I
won't be around no more.
JIM: Well, listen --
DAVID: And let me say something.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Cause, you know, I cannot save any
person that respects me as a person. There's a truth,
you know, cause we're all equal in the flesh. Flesh
and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: So, you know, once I'm out of the
way, the people are going to have nothing to look to
but what?
JIM: The seven seals?
DAVID: What they believe, you see. So
that's why I don't want no medical attention, you know.
That's why I'm laying here in a big old pool of blood.
well, it's dried up now. ~
JIM: I wish you'd take some medical care.
DAVID: Well --
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JIM: I'd like to be the one to help you get
it. ~
DAVID: I wish, I wish I'd gotten shot in the
head.
JIM: Oh, David, don't say that.
DAVID: Well, here's the deal, because, you
see, the truth of the word, that's what the real
Messiah is.
JIM: Right .
DAVID: You know, Moses is not the Messiah,
and Elijah's not, you know. Not even the body of
Christ, you know. All men, no matter what they may be
with the gift of God, they are vanity. And that's why,
you see, when you see even Christ on the cross, you see
that, that God allows men to suffer greatly sometimes,
and that's why the spirit of Christ, which is the V
spirit of all mankind, the spirit of Christ is the
spirit of truth. It's not just one man. It's from
Adam all the way to the end, all those who believe in
God and God's truth. So, so if I'm anything -- are you
there, Jim?
JIM: They're hollering at me. Wait a
minute. Where's the car? Talking to someone else.!'
Okay. The car's at the water tower. -
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Are the kids --
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DAVID: The kids are on their way, right?
JIM: The kids are on the way. It's a white
car at the water tower.
DAVID: Okay, it's.a white car. They're on
their way. Okay.
JIM: Okay, they're - the commander passed
on they're going to send a white car each time.
DAVID: Okay, it's going to be a white car.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: With a radio in it, right?
JIM; With a radio in it.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Yes.
DAVID: So, see, see, what I've always done
is I've never -- I never professed to be anything.
except what the word of God says that I show. Now,
see, that way when I'm no longer around, them people
are going to be on their own.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: See? That way they are free, without
any human hindrances to make their decisions with their
own mind and their own spirit. And that's, that's,
that's about as best as a man can do, isn't it? I
mean, truth is truth, and if we, if we don't walk in
the truth that we have, then we have to deal with our
own selves, don't we?
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JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay. So, I'll talk to you more
about this, okay?
JIM: Yeah, okay.
DAVID: Here comes the babies and --
JIM: They're coming out?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Are they wrapped up warm?
DAVID: Yeah, they're, they're wrapped up
warm. Hey, Steve, Patron's got plenty of diapers,
don't he? They, they've left, haven't they? Have they
left? Okay, they left.
JIM: They left? Okay. I
DAVID: Yeah. Okay, the next, the next two
children that I send out, I'm going to send some money
with them so you can, you know, get some stuff that you
need for them and also --
JIM: David, you don't need to do it, buddy.
DAVID: Look --
JIM: Don't -- listen, we're taking care of
these children.
DAVID: This is -- I know.
JIM: You don't have to worry about that a
bit. _ »
DAVID: These are our children, remember.
JIM: Listen, it's --
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DAVID: We ain't no cheapskates.
JIM: It's great to see things going this
way. I mean, I'm telling you, there's people out here
saying man, you know, this is, this is some guy in here
that's really doing this kind of thing. That's what,
you know, everybody's saying. And the sheriff, I
talked to him two or three times today on the phone and
he was asking about you and --
DAVID: Harwell or Thorn or --
JIM: Yeah, Thorn. Yeah.
DAVID: Oh, I like that man.
JIM: And he was telling me that, Jim, you
know, just talk to David and let's, you know, get him
to work with us some more and that you are a true man
of God and --
DAVID: Well --
JIM: -- you know, that kind of stuff. I
mean, he's a good, good guy and --
DAVID: We just know that I'm -- all we know
now is I just keep rattling my head about seven seals.
JIM: Yeah. A
DAVID: And only God's good. But, like I
say, you know, I understand that, you know, by all
means, it's a cultic situation, it's -- obviously,
there's one guy in charge, you know, and --
JIM: Well, there's people, there's people
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out here saying that, that David Koresh is a gentle man
and, and it just really -- l
DAVID: I don't push myself on anybody,
that's for sure.
JIM: They're just, I mean, you're just
giving them a sign with these children coming out. You
know, I just don't believe --
DAVID: Okay, one moment.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Have you all left yet? Oh. Where,
where'd you leave them last? Whered you leave the
keys at last? Well, you go check with Wayne. Talking
to someone else.! We're finding the keys now.
JIM: That's okay. _
DAVID: Well, here, let me -- wait a second.
Tell the guys we're coming. Oh, these stupid Levi
501's. Itell you. l '
JIM: Oh, man, I'm so --
DAVID: They're kind of, they're kind
of -- well, it's good it's kind of tight cause they
keep circulation. Okay. Sita. Sita. Sita.
' Pause!
JIM: David.
DAVID: Jim --
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: -- I'm, I'm putting my trust in you
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now. I'm sending this money with Sita. Get that phone
cord and, you know, it could be, you know, the second
or third -- 'cause we have a lot of trouble with our
lines. And if those kids need anything, you know, just
-- especially, you know, if you can get some goat's
milk for the baby, you know --
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: ~ and a little bit of honey.
JIM: Okay .
DAVID: See, we feed our kids very good food,
you know, and that formula's got too much carbohydrate
in it and it's got too much sugar, glucose. It's not
really good for the temperaments of young babies.
- JIM: I understand.
DAVID: Whose the name of the man we get our
goat milk from? Huh? Can we send some goat milk then?
Okay, we're going to send some frozen goat milk.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Okay. And okay. Well, we'll send
them some and they can thaw it out. Talking to
someone else.! And, see, goat milk's coagulates more
like human milk. Anyway, no, no health lecture right
now, okay? But we're going to send it to you.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: They -- we'll be down there in a
second.
I41
JIM: Okay. No problem, take your time. I
mean, I know you're doing it.
DAVID: Go ahead and -- okay. _
JIM: Are they, are they coming? ~
DAVID: Yeah. Looking for the key or getting
the goat milk and --
JIM: Yeah, okay, take your time. We're,
we're ready. That's no problem. Hey, you know, a lot
of things to get ready, you know. You know, you and I
have lost a lot in the last day, you know. '
DAVID: Huh?
JIM: I said we've lost a lot yesterday, you
know, some friends and people we knew.
DAVID: Yeah. A bad thing happened
yesterday.
JIM: But the great thing is we're resolving
it and we're trying to work it out, you know, and -~
DAVID: Wish we could have done it you
know, I did everything, I did everything I could with
that Robert.
JIM: I know.
DAVID: But, you know, if you ever get a
chance to talk to Robert, ask him, say, Robert, what
did the guy show you out of the book?
JIM: Yeah, okay. It's nice to see that
things are going good and we're just going to try to
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make it work, you know. I, I know Steve feels good and
he worked real hard to try to resolve it, you know, and
get some of these kids out.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Sita's just really great, I've got to
tell you.
DAVID: She's --
JIM: She's great.
DAVID: Yeah, I have a lot of people come
here and, like I say, you know, the, the, the truth,
you know, if you could have ever met these people, you
know, they're the best people in all the world.
JIM: Yeah. That thing's starting to bother
you, isn't it?
DAVID: What's that?
JIM: Your wound. It's starting -- is it
sore?
DAVID: I don't know, it's always sore, yeah.
You know, it's -- I have to have someone pick up my
legs every once in a while and move them.
JIM: David, you told me yesterday it went in
at your lower abdomen there?
DAVID: Yeah, right around close to the belly
button and went out and hit -- it looked like the
pelvic -- feels like it cracked my -- you know, that
bone that --
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JIM: Yeah, that pelvic bone?
DAVID:
your hips?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID:
JIM: Right.
DAVID: My rear, you know.
JIM: Oh, man. Where else did
- DAVID: Then I got hit over on
side. Then there's a -- I got hit right
wrist. Took a chunk out of my wrist and
I'm looking at it right now. That blood
than black.
JIM: Did you get that to stop
your wrist?43
Yeah, you know, the two bones on like
Then it came out my back.
you get hit?
the other
here in my, my
it's just --
turns blacker
bleeding on
DAVID: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it stopped bleeding.
And the wounds in the back just -- I don't know, they
just -- they ooze and then they stop and
again. It's just, you know --
JIM: Yeah. Mmmm. Are you in
position? If there is one, huh?they ooze
a comfortable
DAVID: Something like that. It's hard to
explain.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: You know, I kind of cried when I
looked out the window and saw all those ATF agents up
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on the roof.
~ JIM: I appreciate you saying that.
DAVID: Well - .
JIM: I'll pass that on to the guys. I mean
it.
DAVID: It shouldn't have happened, Jim.
JIM: I know it. I know. I'll pass that on
to them.
DAVID: What can I say, you know?
JIM: Hey, I told Steve that, you know, I
went by the hospital and that's kind of what held me
up, you know, some of that stuff, and I saw a lot of
those guys. And, you know, they're all doing good and
they're in good spirits and, you know, they're doing
fine and there's no animosity in their hearts or
anything. And I told them --
DAVID: Jim, they, they don't know me. Any
time, any time -- cause they know I didn't do it, but,
in a way, you know, it's my responsibility, you
understand. But the thing of it is is that in the
minds of men there's just two sides, their sides. And
those guys sit together and they drink coffee together
and they practice together, they put buddies together,
they may drink a beer together. You know,.there's a
bond there. And they came down here doing their job
and they didn't have a clear picture, you know, and,
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45
and they came out to do their job and, and they didn't,
you know, they didn't know how to listen to me.-
You know, I was trying to tell them to, you
know, to get back away, you know.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: There's children and women and
children. But, you know, Jim, see, I've got an
intuition. The prophets of old had visions, didn't
they?
JIM: Yeah. '
DAVID: So, you know, you know, the
boy -- your guys didn't have a chance.
JIM: David, that sounds like it's really
hurting you.
DAVID: We -- he knew that you were coming.
I told Robert, I said look, I said they're coming. I
told Robert that.
JIM: Yeah.-
DAVID: They were nowhere in sight as of yet.
And Robert sat right there looking at me, and I tried
to look him straight in the eye. You know, I thought
at least what he would do is tell the guys, you know,
hey, let's, let's slow up a bit. -
JIM: Yeah. ~
DAVID: But, no, he went over and he had to
go back and park his Blazer over there off of the
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corner and all. You know, it didn't have to happen
this way. H
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: You know, you know, the reason why
you've got arms is a show of arms, you know, to tell
the bad guys look --
JIM: Hold it. Wait a minute. All right,
just a minute. Hey, I'm sorry, David. They're asking
me did Sita leave yet.
DAVID: Has Sita left yet? Hey. Hey.
Hello. I can't holler, you know. Has Sita left yet?
Well, get another car then. Unidentified female voice
in background indiscernible.!
JIM: Can they just walk out?
DAVID: They, they -- to, to walk all the way
down to the -- u
JIM: Well, I mean, if she has a problem
getting a car or something, tell me and, you know,
maybe we can move up a little further, if that's --
DAVID: Well, I --
JIM: But I'd rather do it like this, if we
could.
DAVID: Yeah. That way for sure, you know --
let's see, is the white truck out there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE VOICE: Is the white
truck out there?
DAVID
car.
JIM: I
wherever you want
DAVID1
47
Just any, just any car. Just any
guarantee they're safe conduct to I
to drive them.
Who took the keys? Yeah. Okay, take
Misty's car. Okay, Jim.
JIM: Yeah?
DAVID: This is a different car. It's brown,
it's kind
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
DAVID:
JIM:
DAVID
JIM:
for.
DAVID:
right? They'veof shot up a bit.
A, a little brown car?
Yeah.
What kind is it, a Chevy or what?
What kind is it? A Ford Escort.
Ford Escort, okay.
S0 --
Ford Escort, brown, small?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, it's real small.
All right, we'll tell them what to look
And they've got the keys to that,
got the keys to it, right? Where's
Chanel? Where's Chanel? Is she taking care of her?
Okay. Please start them. Start them. Start them.
That's one thing, you know, about kids. You know,
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they're so eager to think and --
JIM: So innocent, aren't they?
DAVID: Yeah. They're just smiling
and I love babies, Jim.
JIM: Yeah. Well, I know you're a true man
of God to say that. You love those kids.
DAVID: Well, that's one thing they always
try to get me on is child abuse, but I don't --
JIM: How could that be?
DAVID: See, what happens is is that --
JIM: How could that be? A man that would do
this for children? How could that be possible?
DAVID: Well, Jim, you see, the way the devil
works, if he can't get, if he can't get around the
truth, he's got to resort to lies. You see? Now, for
instance, like, like Robin Bonds. You've heard of
Robin bonds?
JIM: Robin Bonds. I'm not sure I have.
DAVID: She's one of the girls that left
…[truncated]