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9 of course
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121 Tape 15X!
2 JOHN DOLAN: Oh. Well, hey --
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STEVE: I mean I'll tell you the truth --
JOHN DOLAN: Strong love.3
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5 STEVE: I love he
6 really love her.
7r to death myself. I mean I
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: And -- but you know, Judy's the one
that bore her and so anyway --
JOHN DOLAN: You know she'd be safe, you know
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ith me. You know that and --
STEVE: Oh, yeah. But of course if she would
3 go anywhere she'd be going --
JOHN DOLAN: with her mom.
STEVE: -- I would want her to go to one of
the relativ es like Judy's mom or something so --
JOHN DOLAN: Who's, who's -- okay. Have we
spoken to Judy's mom?
STEVE: I don't know to be honest with you.
I don't know. I think --
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE: -- I think so. Because I think th ere
was a message left or something like that from what I
recall.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. We, we could get that
done. Steve, we could get that done. You know that.2
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STEVE: I do know that. But you --
JOHN DOLAN: We could get that done.
STEVE: -- know it still comes down to I can
go mention it to Ju dy. She can get on the phone with
you again. She wasn't happy because she was hoping
that there would have been something shown to her about
her finger being taken care of and --
JOHN DOLAN: Let me speak, let me speak to
Judy.
STEVE:_ Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: All right.
STEVE: Who's -- anybody -- just a minute.
There's nobody even nearby me --
V JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: right now. I'm going to have to
call out. I don't want --
JOHN DOLAN: All right.
STEVE: -- leave the phone. Just a minute.
Anybody here? Who's here? See if Judy -- is she, is
she free to come to the phone? check to see if she's
free to come to the phone. I know she was havin
finger looked at, but if she can if she's finished ask
her if she wouldn't come to the phone.g her
Okay, they're looking for her right now.
Hello?
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Yeah.
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2 now.
3 JOHN DOLAN: Oh, good. Good. How's her
41 finger doing?Y
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125 STEVE: Well, right now she just had it or
aken care of. But it's gone down.
JOHN DOLAN: Good.
But she says she's got a l
ink the pain 1S becoming stronger now.
JOHN DOLAN: Bad.
STEVE: It's probably because the, you know,
the finger's like twisted. It's, it's not it's
idefinitely broke, and it's probably - well, I don't
V know. It's, it'sprobably setting in a way it
y shouldn't or --
JOHN DOLAN: Should not. Probably setting in
1 a way it should not.
STEVE: It's crooked, you know. It's --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. It's going to be crooked.
STEVE: it's definitely crooked so --
JOHN DOLAN: So she's got to get that --
hopefully there won't be any infection in it. But you
know, you know, you and I both know that the heat is
there is probably not that great, you know, so ~-
F STEVE: The heat. Oh, yeah. The lack of it
you mean.
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JOHN DOLAN2 Lack Of heat.
STEVE: Okay. '
JOHN DOLAN: Some of the windows are out.
4 It's just not a good place for any children.
STEVE: In honesty?
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
7 STEVE: That thing, you know, that's on e
pthing that does not bother these people.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. Okay.
STEVE: Just so you know. I mean --
, JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: - it would be nice. The only thing
th ta would show, you know, like the electricity. They
don't care being without it. Because you've got to
remember, they chose to like me originally in '87 to go
V over to Palestine, Texas where all they had was
lanterns, outdo or toilets, things of that nature.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: No running water. So that way you
find out if people are really honest in searching for
truth. Or are they coming to a place to live free a dn
live off of someone else. So see, that's what that was
all about. So number one, these people want eternal
life. That's what it --
JOHN DOLAN: I, I appreciate that.
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IJOHN DOLAN: Well, if, you know, if som eone
comes out, we can always have Judy's finger looked at
3 attended to in the ambulance Bradley, and Judy can
4return to you. You know, that's, that's no problem at
all.
6 STEVE: Okay.
7 JOHN DOLAN: Okay? So we can do that. And,
8 land if we just -- I think that may go a long way in
9 Egetting some momentum, plus it would serve, serve --
10 STEVE: I'll tell you the truth ahead of time
11 from what she told me --
12 I JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
13, STEVE: -- just a few days ago. She does not
14 trust anybody now. she doesn't. She's, she gets, gets
15 ithe feeling that if she'd go to the Bradley you might
16* pull something like take her away.
17 JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no, no, no.
STEVE: But you know, but if that would 18
19 happen I mean --
20 JOHN DOLAN: No. Didn't you --
21 STEVE: -- just let me say this. Because
22 this i ' s what David has that if that would happen, it
23 would all be over with. There would no more --
24 JOHN DOLAN: Oh.
25 STEVE: -- I mean it would be all over with.
JOHN D0 ' LAN. Don't, don't you think we knowI
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2 STEVE: I think -- I'm hoping you do.
nt to, I want to make sure tha t I can keep
on working that every as 4 V pect from every angle is
5 understood so we don't -- I don't want to pull anything
6 on you people. I really don't. And I expect the same.
7 So when you give --
81. JOHN DOLAN: How, how about this --
9 STEVE: -- me your word I want to keep on
10 seeing it followed through.
11 JOHN DOLAN: I do tOO.
12 STEVE: You know, it bothered a lot of people
13 though, and of course it's your, the nature of your
14 {agency of course to do bugging. And --
15 JOHN DOLAN: All right, how about this? How
16 about ° this. Let's just get off th at -- just we can go
back to that. But how 17 about this while we're talking
18 about Mayanah. Mayanah and Judy come out. Judy gets
19 fixed up. Judy returns and then we, we take care of
20*iMayanah.
21 STEVE: It would never happen.
22 JOHN DOLAN: To grandmother.
STEVE: I'll let Jud 2:1 y answer for herself
24 but --
as A JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: -- I ' tjus know Judy. And I know how
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she is. But --
JOHN DOLAN: And then you and I talk.
come to the room yet. So she doesn't hear me talking.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: And when she does, I'll tell you what
I'm going to do. I'm going to exit this room.
JOHN DOLAN: Because she's --
STEVE: So she can talk to you by herself
with nobody here.
JOHN DOLAN: You don't think she would, she
would want to go for that.
STEVE: I just, you know, 22 years I've been
with her. It's a lot --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- of time. In fact actually it's
been --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- closer to 23. But after all that
time, I do know her. I know what she's about, you
know. The love she has for Mayanah. I mean she would
not want to let her go. Not unless it was so totally
impairment that, you know, the child had no kind of
chance whatsoever and --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE: SO --STEVE: -- I'm not going to say -- she hasn't
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JOHN DOLAN: Mayanah would go to Judy's mom.
You know that.
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN DOLAN: And you know, that's, that's
guaranteed. You know, I mean if we couldn't do that
then we can't do anything --
STEVE: She actually -- I'll tell you the
truth. She was ready to come out that Tuesday. Not
maybe. It was -- everybody was. They was already set.
It was in everybody's minds. It was over. It was
done. They were coming out. We knew nothing else but
that it was decided upon. Everybody chose to do that.
They were coming out. All of it. It was done. It was
already settled.
So we were just as surprised when the
turnabout of the situation as it was. But at the same
time, it's, it's not something that's unusual because
it's happened before.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: But I mean there's still, you know,
these people still they weight out the issues day by
day. But you know, there's still always this thing to
overcome, how they were attacked in the innocency --
y JOHN DOLAN: I know.
I STEVE: -- and in the privacy of their home
and all that.
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JOHN DOLAN: How do you -- just, just Steve,
you know, you know Judy better than anybody else in
this world.
STEVE: I do.
JOHN DOLAN: How would she feel about Mayanah
being placed with, with Judy's mom? What's Judy's
mom's name by the way? I hate to keep calling her
Judy's mom.
STEVE: Well, I'll let Judy tell you, okay?
Because I don't know --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. Or just a first name.
STEVE: - I don't know what she wants to say
about her or how or, you know --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh.
STEVE: -- she's close to her mother, so you
know. I'll let you talk to her about it.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: You can ask her anything you want.
JOHN DOLAN: All right. And I, I, you know,
in all, in all honesty I'd like to see her, see her
finger taken care of.
srzvs: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: Because you know, does it
the finger?
STEVE: It seems like it's gone down to ahave -- besides the pain are we seeing anything more in
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small degree so I --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. This --
STEVE: - I hope that's a good sign.
JOHN DOLAN: - this would be good for
everybody. This would be good for Judy and, and
Hayanah and everybody. And there would be bosses here.
It would be really kind of a momentum that we lost, you
know what I mean? I don't know how you feel. Tell me
how you feel.
STEVE: Well, I don't know really. Because I
mean the damage was so great from last Friday that
that's -- I, I just don't know that. I haven't -- it
seems like I haven't been able to get a handle on
anything for sure.
JOHN DOLAN: I know.
STEVE: You know, people are looking out the
window when I went out there and talked with Byron and
so forth. But at the same time, everybody reported to
me that two young men behind Byron and Jack Harwell and
the way they acted and so forth, the way that was --
JOHN DOLAN: They're a different, they're a
different type of person than you and I are. Let's
face it.
STEVE: Well, the FBI agents also. Do they
spend their days in that capacity, 365 days out of a
year? Or are they guys that also wear suits and go
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1 through other --
, 2 JOHN DOLAN: They have suits, and they have
: 3 families and they have children also. '
4 STEVE: Yeah, but I mean the way they were
I 5 acting there and so forth. I mean, you know, they --
' 6 JOHN DOLAN: Well --
7 STEVE: - they could see that. They watched
8 it from a distance.
9 JOHN DOLAN: I'm sure they did. And I'm
10h sure, I'm sure they felt the tension in the situation
11 too --
12 STEVE: Well, yeah, and the fact, the way --
13 I'll tell you the truth. when I got out there, I
14 expected to see Jack as he was. That didn't surprise
15 me. And Byron.
16 JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
17 STEVE: I don't know what Byron was wearing
18 around his --
19 A JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
. 20 STEVE: -- his middle and waist. But it
' 21 was --
22 JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
23 STEVE: -- it was sure I mean beside looked
24* like a bulletproof jacket maybe or a double one --
25 JOHN DOLAN: I'm sure it was.
STEVE: -- or I don't know even what he all
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had on. But --
JOHN DOLAN: I'm sure --13
STEVE: -- if you'd have looked at Wayne and
I, we had nothing just like we told you. We didn't
have any flack jackets, bulletproof jackets, nothing.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. I know. You certainly --
STEVE: And, and when these guys are jumping
around, moving their guns toward us and, and the stare
and so forth. I mean it was the whole --
JOHN DOLAN: I know.
STEVE: -- you know, here they're out there
they say and with, with a good intent. And we're
looking at them. But how can you help but not look at
the guys behind so fidgety that they're about ready to
shoot Jack Harwell in the back by accident.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Well, on the vest, you
know, I, I think Byron's just following
But look, you and I can show the others
example of what we do here today in the
getting Mayanah out, Mayanah cared for,
grandmother --regulations.
by, by the
example of
Mayanah to her
STEVE: Now, now don't get your hopes up.
JOHN DOLAN: NO '-
STEVE: Because you haven't talked to Judy
yet. And --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, I'm just --
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J 1 STEVE: -- I'm telling you ahead of time
2 knowing Judy --
3 JOHN DOLAN: Knowing Judy, huh?
4 STEVE: You, you take, you can take any hits,
5 or you can try anything on her. You can say anything. I
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' 7 talked to her about going out, anything. So you have a
8 complete open opportunity with her.
' 9 JOHN nomm: Open field, huh? Okay.
10 STEVE: Positively. Positively.
11 JOHN DOLAN: All right.
12 STEVE: I can even help you out by saying
13 this is the nicest guy I've talked to yet. I like the
' 14 guy.
15 JOHN DOLAN: I -- and --
92 16 STEVE: And you know, spent some time with
17 him and --
T 18 JOHN DOLAN: I appreciate that, Steve.
I 19 STEVE: -- you can do what you want.
20 92 JOHN DOLAN: And I wouldn't be on this end if
21 the feeling weren't mutual. And, and the nice part of
22 it is we're both trying to do the same thing. That's,
23 that's really the best part of it.
24 STEVE: Just for the future if it means
, 25 anything from a guy that's on the inside my, the
: highest recommendations would go to your department in
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your behalf.
JOHN DOLAN: Thank you, Steve.
STEVE: If anybody was to do any negotiations
in the future in anything closely like this, I would
tell them to let you be involved as much as possible.
JOHN DOLAN:. Okay. Look if there's - ,
STEVE: I hope they hear that because it's
the truth. Whatever happens to me coming in, out or
when I do if it's very soon which is always possible,
whatever else, I mean that is a statement I'd like to
make and -- i
JOHN DOLAN: Well, when that happens, Steve,
I'll tell you one thing. I'm, I'm going to -- I'll
want to meet you then too. And you know, regardless of
what we do before. But I will also meet you then.
STEVE: Okay. I'll --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. And --
STEVE: -- but today if you want - 3:10, the
reason I said 3 10 minutes after 3 is because we're
done with the daily --
JOHN DOLAN: The daily, yeah.
STEVE: - at 3 o'clock.
JOHN DOLAN: Look, and if there's any way
that, you know, someone will come out to stay with us,
you know, whether it be an adult or a child, you know,
when you and I would meet that would be just so
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important to get this matter resolved.
STEVE: Meaning what you -- are you saying
you'd like me to maybe like bring who out or what --
how are you -- what are you --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, anybody. Anybody. You
know, you're on the inside. You name it.
STEVE: I mean would you feel more
comfortable if I had somebody with me? Is that what
you're saying?
JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no. I mean somebody
who's going to stay permanently. Like Mayanah or --
STEVE: Oh, that would stay with you.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE: Oh, wow.
JOHN DOLAN: I mean voluntarily.
STEVE: Here we go again.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, here we go again.
STEVE: Oh, no.
JOHN DOLAN: Just --
STEVE: I was trying to pick up on what Byron
was saying yesterday about meeting face to face and
trying to do that, continue with that, drop off the
information but not by him but by yourself.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, I see what you're saying.
Okay.
STEVE: And then maybe tomorrow, maybe
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tomorrow. I mean you guys, I know you want this done
so quickly. But that's what I'm trying to tell Byron
even. Don't -- like David says --
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum. V
STEVE: -- when you give these people time,
that's why it came to the place --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum. .
STEVE: -- with you finally working in the --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE: -- manner it did that Friday.
JOHN DOLAN: I know.
STEVE: Seriously.
JOHN DOLAN: I know, seriously. I, I was
there. You know. '
STEVE: I tell you what. I wonder how this
thing would have worked out if you'd have just
continued on the phone right through the evening.
These, these guys that were behind the scenes didn't
get involved. You -- I swear you would have seen those
so, such, so many people out by Sunday. It was, it was
going to happen.
Then all of a sudden, David did get involved
in that the electricity was cut off and all those other
things, the ewsweek, the promises weren't kept. That
was a big deal to him. He had a smile. I tell you, I
don't care -- even though I brought those bugs to where
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he was, I did purposely. You - if you listen back we
talked about this thing is bugged.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: We knew it. So we purposely sat it
down. We didn't care if you listened.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: So that's why we wanted to give you
an opportunity to hear how it goes. And of course, you
know, we exaggerated a lot of things purposely. And
we, we had a little humor about it. But I mean overall
the truth of the matter he was in good spirits about
it.
And there were certain things that needed to
be done because of the attitude of certain people here
in regards to such a serious thing as to what took
place. I mean this is, this is an extremely serious
thing as you and I agree. And no one --
JOHN DOLAN: N0.
STEVE: - disagrees. But it was their, some
people's reaction to that in the next few days it's
things as a body you wouldn't understand. But it's
things we don't do. We don't just go out and, you
know, just go get drunk or abuse things like that. We
want to be alert and to think about what has happened
so they can make right decisions. And you know --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
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STEVE: -- not influenced by alcohol or
anything. So see, these things came into play. So
that's why we, he told them seriously, you know, that
they may have to go out whether they wanted to or not.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: Whether they wanted to or not.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, yeah. Well --
STEVE: So that's what he was trying to say
to Byron yesterday that, you know, we had -- or I think
it was Byron he was talking to.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum. Well, getting back to
Rita. What's, what's her status with David? She's on,
not under expulsion so to speak or --
STEVE: Just a minute. Someone just came in.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, who's there? 4
STEVE: They're asking me a question. Just
hang on.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure, go ahead.
Steve speaking in background indiscernible.!
STEVE: Oh, by the way.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: Okay, it appears like - a couple
people reported to me that it appears like your men on
the outside have dumped something in the lake.
JOHN DOLAN: Dumped something in the lake.
STEVE: They don't know if it's liquid, if
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it's poison or whatever else.
JOHN DOLAN: I don't think it's poison. I've
got no idea. I can check and find what they're doing
in the lake.
STEVE: But if it's that, you know, they've
ruined this property for good. If --
JOHN DOLAN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- anybody were to come back to it --
JOHN DOLAN: I don't --
STEVE: - the most valuable thing about this
property for miles around is it has it's own small,
little lakes on it.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, Steve, I don't, I don't
really see how that would be possible to be honest --
STEVE: I --
JOHN DOLAN: -- with you. I'll check on it.
STEVE: If you -- yeah, check and let me
know --
JOHN DOLAN: Just give me a little - do you
know the facts of how, what got dumped or where it was
or what?
STEVE: Someone just came and said that to
me. I'd have to get up and go ask who saw, who's been
watching. I'm sure a number of people have.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: So of course it could be verified. I
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them. You'll get to
around when you come
JOHN DOLAN
STEVE: If
can walk around with
actuall
negotiate with
they've done.
sa
those dogs thatSTEVE: Exactly. It's the o
here. So you can take a look f
y. Or go look over at that dump truck. Take a
in the front. Look over at t21
know that for sure your people would know, because
they're in contact with them.
. JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE: No one does anything here without
. their, without their knowing.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Okay. Was it --
STEVE: It came from about --
JOHN DOLAN: -- on the other side like over
Y STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Kind of over there.
nly place we have
see that today. You can look
out here.
Okay. So basically
you want to even, if you want you
me or I'll point -- David would
y like me to point out what they're doing around
or yourself so when we
you in the future you can see what
Take a look over by the side he's going to
look
hose five carcasses of
were shot that Sunday. Take a look
over at the lakes. Look how th 'ey ve ripped up the, the
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grass and the -- I mean everything.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: Take a good look at it.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll definitely look at --
STEVE: And if you want tell Ricks let them
report on that tomorrow. Tell them how they've been
agitating and provoking these people instead -- on one
hand, they're smiling and want something cordial and
nice going. On the other hand -- the two don't work
together.
JOHN DOLAN: I see what you're saying.
STEVE: I mean look at psychology. Look at
the past dealing with people. If it's worked with
others, it's not working with these people. I can't
imagine why it would work with anybody else.
JOHN DOLAN: I see what you're saying. You
know, I --
STEVE: I mean if he wants to do one thing,
let him do it wholeheartedly. Let him rip up the
building, us included, or don't do it that way. Try
the other way. But give it a, give it a try like they
did Friday if we'd have continued. Well, anyway, we're
not going to beat it to death. But it's --
JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no. We --
STEVE: -- but it's the truth. And it, and
it was working. So they should have considered that.
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You know, they would have been wise, Dec would have
been wise to have impressed upon them let's quickly
flip on the electricity as a measure of our, of our
good will to these people. Maybe we can quickly pick
up on what we just lost. And it looks like we're
losing it with them.
Dec should have picked up on that so hard and
quick Saturday. Three conversations I had with him
that day. I actually thought it was going to be
totally over with you and us. I really did.
JOHN DOLAN: NO, I --
STEVE: When, when you finally got off the
phone and they put John-3 on and Mike, two new guys
that were coming on more hard with a different
attitude. It was like what now is the sense in even
talking? What is the sense --
JOHN DOLAN: Well, my, my feeling was that it
was, you know, you and I had great rapport. You know
what I mean? I really thought we, we --
STEVE: Well, I kept on asking for you.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Uh-huh.
STEVE: I mentioned that so --
JOHN DOLAN: I know.
STEVE: They wanted to try something new
apparently. But I mean what can I do?
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, let, let me understand
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JOHN DOLAN: And which sI, re going to, what you want to, we want to
2 try to accomplish, and let me run that by the team
3 leader which is you met Byron. And then he's going to
run it up, up to, to you know, everybody.
S Okay, basically you want to get what we have
6 which would be the copy of the search warrant, the
cover page on the search warrant.
STEVE: Um-hum.
9 hows a violation and
92 101 the address and all that. And you want that and what
11 else? And the, the --
12 STEVE: Well , you know, the tape that you
13 people mentioned.
14 JOHN DOLAN: The tape of the --
15, STEV
16E: I mean today Ricks acted --
JOHN DOLAN: - of Dr. Arnold.
17 STEVE: --
18today Ricks acted like it was no
big deal. He acted like nothi ng could be proved. It's
19 interpretive Ricks has no understanding of the
20 Bible, of spiritual things. Look at. Let -- here's
21 how it works. It says in Revelation that no one --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay -- 22
23 STEVE: Okay, let me just say it.
24 JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Okay.
25 STEVE: Because this is what it comes down
to. And then you can rea ct. But no one can look
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thereon. No one can open the seals but one. Th is guy
says let me serve you. Let me show you in your Bible
lwhere the seals are located.; 92 2
He is telling you there's
no other human being on this earth that can show you.
And you're the judge.
Number one, let's get to the fifth seal.
' 7 Have a scholar at least give his opinion or theory then
92 I3 8 or his feelings about it. Where are these things
3 9 it located in the Bible? Then 1'11 look in my Bible to
10 see if there's something there, if there's some kind of
1 11 a connection. Do you understand how it works?
121 JOHN DOLAN: Umhum. Yeah, I started to
13 say --
14STEVE: That's simple enough.
15 JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
16M STEVE: We're not dealing in interpretation
I 17 and so forth. It either connect
E 18 the Bible says or it doesn't. But it's one - I -- all
' 19 iday long I can theorize. So cans like a puzzle like
Ricks. So can
20 theologians. Well , I think this and I think that and I
21 feel this and my opinion -- sure
22 day long.
23*, we can do that all
But you start tying the Scripture together so
24 it's so plain and clear in its own context. I've not
25 seen scholars do that.I can give you the names of
some of the best in the world. And I know and love
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1 these guys. I've spent a lot of time with them. I've
2studied with them. These men don't have the ability
3 David has.
it has something to do with God says
in the book how he chooses who he wants in his time.
.And it's usually contrary to what people expect as in
y the days of Christ 2,000 years ago. The pharisees did
not have inspiration. These were learned men with
doctor degrees who were proud and arrogant as men a
today. And they didn't know God e1'8
ven though they
thought they knew the book. They had it memorized, but
they didn't understand its context. So that's what
we're talking about. So this guy Arnold or this guy
Taber, James Taber from --
JOHN DOLAN: University of North Carolina.
STEVE: Yeah. Exactly.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: You know, you get a dialogue going.
Let these people if you want them out, they're not
going to come out by running over vehicles outside or
being coerced or, or like what'shis-name said to me,
Byron yesterday, don't take this as a threat, but then
he gave a threat. You know what I mean?
JOHN DOLAN: Laughing.!
STEVE: Don't take this as a threat but, you
know, we're, they're planning on doing this and that to H
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JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE: -- well, let them do it.
JOHN DOLAN: If Byron said that he's not,
it out of a threat. He did --
STEVE: I know he didn't. As --
JOHN DOLAN: -- it out of , out of concern,
you know?
STEVE: -- as a person I know that. And I --
JOHN DOLAN: You know that.
STEVE: -- I have -- I, I want Byron to know
that I like him. I respect him. He's probably done a
good job through the years. He's done it to the best
of his ability. I hold nothing against Byron.
JOHN DOLAN: He's --
STEVE: You know, he's not probably a
negotiator. But yet he does have a very good ability
to speak and express himself and the opinions and that
what needs to be done from his perspective and from the
Bureau's perspective. so that came across loud and
clear. I understood it. I saw it. I realize how
important it is to h
tim too. How all of you want toget
his done, so he tried it his wa y. But these people,
it's a unique situation dealing with that book called
the Bible. And --
JOHN DOLAN: I know.
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STEVE: - and as Ricks said, which is true.
He said something that was very true today as he has
before. These people are concerned for their eternal
damnation or their eternal life. That's true. That's
where, that's where it is involved in. That's the
Ifocal point in fact.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, let me just understand so
I can run it by. Because I've got to bring it up to
the - well, to Byron, to the bosses. So it's kind of
a two or three step process. And if they, they call
Washington, then it's a four step. But in any case
that basically it would just be to drop off the items
that we have for you, the tape --
STEVE: Do you have a Eeogle? I heard that
he was on Eeople magazine. If you can get one of
those, that's fine too. I'm sure you must have one.
JOHN DOLAN: Zeogle, yeah.
STEVE: People, Newsweek, Ijme --
JOHN DOLAN: That's correct.
STEVE: - drop those off. We've been
really - you know, you know what's happened with
those - those magazines actually mean nothing.
Originally when it was me that raised it, someone heard
it on the news. And they thought well, I wonder what
they're saying about us. You know, it's a curiositY
thing. David could care less.
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then he is involved in the principle.
2 Ricks acted like he - what w has is statement? Let's
3. see. Where is it h °ere. Where is it here?
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I'm sure we could get
5 something, something --
6 STEVE: Let me take a look here.
JOHN DOLAN: -- going if we can get something
of a substantiye exchange. But at least you know --
STEVB: David believes so he, you can
consider him to be some kind of'a nut or whatever. But
he believes that he will be heard irregardless of the
press or the world.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: And he will show you the chapters in
the Bible that show how it's going to come about.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: Contrary to what this world thinks.
You know, man thinks they're in control of this world.
We're so selfdeceived when we're subject to death.
Any one of us could die any day. We're expendable.
JOHN DOLAN2 IS that, is that the truth.
STEVE: That is -- isn't that --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: - the truth?
JOHN DOLAN: That's the truth, you know.
Hey
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1. STEVE: Okay.
2 JOHN DOLAN: -- just wait --
STEVE: But, but David more than anything
realizes more than anybody there is a plan. But anyway
let's -- okay, I won't get off on that --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Let me, let me check, run
this up through Byron, run it up through the, the team
leader.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: who is Byron --
STEVE: Those answers he obtained, if he's
got them written out or on tape in regards to what
Wayne Martin and I raised, those questions with him, if
iyou could bring that or -- .
JOHN DOLAN: Let me, let me just see where we
are. Okay, basically what, what, where we are right
now is, is as follows is that basically you and I would
meet approximately halfway between Double E and halfway
between the compound.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I would give to you the,
the things that Byron had for you the other day.
srsv:= Right.
JOHN DOLAN: Then after a conversation and so
on, you go back to your residence, and I go back to the
vehicle. And --
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1 STEVE: Right.
2 JOHN DOLAN: - but nobody would come out.
1 3 STEVE: Right.
- 4 JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Let me just run it by
5 them. And I just wanted to make sure that we had it
6 clear. Is it --
7 STEVE: Okay. Do you want me to call you
' 8 back or stay on the phone.
9 JOHN DOLAN: No, I, I going to have to --
- l0 I'll have to run this through them and if -- I'll give
1 ll you a buzz. Because I don't know how long I'll be in
N 12. there.
13 STEVE: Okay. I'm at the, I'm at the phone
14 where I pick it up and it just rings you automatically
15if you ever, if you know which one that is.
16 JOHN DOLAN: All right. Okay. That's
17 Wayne's, Wayne's office phone.
18 STEVE: Yes.
19 JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Very good. >Let me, let
20. me give it to the team leader. Let me have them run it
21 up and see what the bosses say.
22 STEVE: Okay, and if you have -- now look.
23 ,Here's how -- this will work in your behalf for these
24 people. If you have any other information dealing with
25 the le gal process written out on tape, suggestions. If
y you can bring more or you can give more answers --
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JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- in talking to me I can tape that.
Then I can take it back. These people can study it,
listen to it. Think about it. That's what makes a
difference. Don't push them. They might even make a
decision overnight. But don't say come on out tonight
and, or, or come out and then we'll give it -- it's not
going to work. You might as well just run us over.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: That's as plain as I can tell you
right now. But if you give them something to look at,
it was the, the commanders that changed the perspective
of things from Friday. Start doing some good things
like were, what were being done there, or finish the
promises that were given Friday and Friday night in
regards to the Newsweek and that just as the principle
of the thing.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum. I see what you're
saying. I see what you --
s'rzv1~:= Okay .
JOHN DOLAN: -- I just wanted to make sure
that I, that we --
STEVE: I need tools to work with. They were
taken from me. I don't have anything anymore.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, Steve. I see where you're
at.
I 3 ~
a4 JOHN DOLAN: I'll talk to you later.
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1 STEVE: Oka I'll
92 2y, wait right here by the
phone. So I'm going to be sitting right here. I'm no
going to move.
STEVE. Okay, bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, thanks. Bye.
iii
Phone ringing.!
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It works.
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN DOLAN: Hey, Steve?
STEVE: Hey, John. I can h dl ar y hear you.
JOHN DOLAN: I can hardly - let me make an
adjustment here, yeah.
STEVE: There you go. There you go.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. This electronic stuff.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Basically Byron ran it
up, and then they ran it up, and they ran it e
I'm surprised it got back so fast. And
ast. Okay, basically
what they would l°k i e to see is a substantive exchange.
when I'm talking substantive exchange, they would like
to see an adult or some children be exchanged for the
meeting. Okay. So that's where the bosses are at.
STEVE: Okay. I thought that the meeting
itself was one of those goodwill things again where wet
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2 JOHN DQLAN: Well '-
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5 JOHN DOLAN: I -- okay, but --
6 STEVE: Let me just --
7 JOHN DOLAN: - that's what they've -- okay.
Let me tell you what else they, they said. I said - I
told --
STEVE: Okay. Do you want me to react to
that, or do you want to say more first?
JOHN DOLAN: I want to say more first.
STEVE: Okay, go ahead.
JOHN DOLAN: I told them that. I said hey
look. It's really important that we have this
relationship. I want to, I want to continue this.
It's something that we need that Steve and I hav
established that, that, you know, and what I used the
terms that money can't buy.B
So they said well, you know, that's the
point. They said, they said well, what does he want?
we went through the things, and they said okay. Let's
at least take a half step. And the half step that they
want to take is they want to drop off the legal
documents, run those out there, the letters, the search
warrant and all that stuff.
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STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Is that okay?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: So we're making -- call it a
Whatever you want to call it. But I think
y it's at least a half step.
STEVE: Are we talking about also those
.magazines, or are they not being given?
JOHN DOLAN: They wouldn't want t
those right now.o go for
STEVE: Tell me -- now see you've got a lot
of people -- so is there information in there that
might be detrimental if we look at it, we have a
view of how the world is seeing? I hear there wasnother
pictures that were taken of the place originally.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, there are -- yes. I, I
read it --
STEVE: There's no question. There's got to
be reasons like that. Because I can't -- it wouldn't
make any sense to anybody why --
JOHN DOLAN: All right. Do you want me to
tell, do you want me to tell you?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: The word is derogatory.
STEVE: Really. Okay.
1 honest. You k
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now, I never --
STEVE: It's derogatory against us?
JOHN DOLAN: David.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. That's -- well, one
expects this. That doesn't hurt anybody or change
anybody's opinion. Honest -- I mean seriously.
JOHN DOLAN: I know. I know.
STEVE: When I've gone around the world even
myself challenging scholars and ministers and so forth,
I'll say to them let me ask you some questions.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: If they can't answer the questions, I
say will you give me the time to show you something?
You will have lost nothing but a little time. so I'm
not offended by anything anybody says That. s between
them.
JOHN DOLAN: All right, let me --
STEVE: Words don't hurtpeople.
JOHN DOLAN: All right. I'll, I'll carrY
hat message back. But in the meantime, let's get
ose legal documents out to you.
STEVE: I'm telling you it will -- it would
much further if they -- because they were promised
two Johns, yourself and Cox.
JOHN DOLAN: I'm fully aware of that. And
m, I'm not, you know --
37
STEVE: Laughing.!
JOHN DOLAN: -- I'm not changing that. And,
and what I said I know.
never lie toSTEVE: It, it -- all right. So you know --
JOHN DOLAN: Know what I said. I know. Hey,
what I said. And --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: -- I'm not, you know, I'm not --
STEVE: Okay. Yeah. I, I won't bring it up
JOHN DOLAN: I will never -- Steve, I will
you. And that's the bottom line on that.
You can rest assured --
out there as a kind of
step --STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: -- of that. But let's get this
a call it a gesture or a half-
STEVE: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: -- or whatever you want to call
STEVE: So they're not bothered about you and
Imeeting halfway out in the -- I don't want the
Bradleys like before.
LAN: I understand wh ta you're saying.
ou're concerned about the --JOHN DO
Y
STEVE: And I guarantee my life to yours.
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JOHN DOLAN: Vice versa. That's not the --
STEVE: You're safe. You're okay. Believe
me.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, you know, you know I know
that. And I --
STEVE: And I think we've more than shown
that from day one. I mean in -- I mean they, they
can't forget we're the ones, Wayne and I and everybody
here that wanted those wounded off to be able to be
taken care of.
JOHN DOLAN: I know that.
STEVE: Don't forget it.
JOHN DOLAN: I'm not. I'm not. I, I know
about it and I was --
STEVE: That's what blew me away the other
day when Wayne and I walked out there though. I mean
the way they were acting. We're not out to hurt or
take someone's life.
JOHN DOLAN: I'm sure of that.
STEVE: I mean it's still a person. I mean
everybody's got a probation until they're dead. You
can't do anything for anybody when they're dead.
JOHN DOLAN: You got that right.
STEVE: So I mean even like Byron, I don't
care if it's the, the bosses over you, I don't have
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1 anything against them personally.
JOHN DOLAN: I know that. And I, and I k now
that. And I know our relationship. And that's not a
problem.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: So let me, let me do this. What
I'm going to do is I'm going to go in, tell them thBY
81 can go ahead dan do that. And I, I really hope this
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18
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22gesture will, you know et , g a good response from David
and --
STEVE: Judy had beenhere. She waited for
r so or a half hour --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I'm --about oh, 20 minutes o
STEVE: - and then she just left here about
10 minutes ago.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, I'm sorry I missed her.
STEVE: Well, that's okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Tell her, tell her I hope she's,
her finger if feeling better --
STEVE: Well, she, she had come down to talk
to you of course and all.
JOHN DOLAN: I know I k. now. Okay. Let's,
23 let
24.
251
Bs get this done as a little half step.
STEVE: You want to call me ri
JOHN DOLAN: No, I'll just tell them to go
head and do it.ght back then?
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STEVE: Okay.
2 JOHN
3yDOLAN: So that you can watch for the
delivery, the usual thing and take care of it. when
4 you read those documents however you want to give us a
5 buzz back or, or we'll give you a buzz back.
STEVE: Oh, so what you're going to do is
7 just drop the stuff off?
B JOHN DOLAN: The - yeah. Um-hum. The legal
STEVE: Okay.
1 JOHN DOLAN: As a good, as a goodwill gesture
so to speak. Okay?
STEVE: Okay, so you're not going to meet
with me then.
JOHN DOLAN: No. No. We'll set that up for
another time when we get something substantiv e going.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: I will - I want to do that.
yBut basically the bosses say hey, we really need
ubstantive at least --
STEVE: Well, tell me what, what they want to
d .rop off again. It didn't sound like it was much
because I was hoping --
aorm nomm wen, what --
STEVE: - the more they give, the more the se
people have to base a decision on.
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1: JOHN DOLAN: I know. What they're going
3 STEVE: And, and their goodwill.
I JOHN DOLAN: Sure. What they're going to
right now is a little bit of stuff that, that
6 I know David wanted to see was the search warrant.
TEVE: Okay, the warrant. What else?
8 JOHN DOLAN: Search warrants and the legal
9 letters.
10 STEVE: What kind of 1egal letters? Do you
111 mean like --
12 JOHN DOLAN: Attorneys. Attorney
13representing you and David and so on.
14 I STEVE: You mean that --
15 JOHN DOLAN: Firearms, Firearms Act
16 information about the Firearms Act, what's the
17 provisions of the Firearms Act and so on.
1s 3 srsvs: Okay.
19 JOHN DOLAN: Okay?
20! STEVE: Now remember, any information you
21 have in regards to the involvement of the ATP as of
22 even right now on through this thing, I want to know
23 about that. I really do.
24 JOHN DOLAN: Well, what --
25 STEVE: I mea n I forgot to tell you also, we
were all bothered by what the man again had to say
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1 today, this ATE agent.
2 JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Okay. Let me -- my
3 understanding is what's in the package is, is some
.information regarding the Firearms Act. Okay? What
the Firearms Act is. In other words, what is referred
to in legal terms as the statute.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Secondly, the search war rant
information on the, on the cover sh eet of the search
warrant and the law, the letters from attorneys who
represent your, will represent you and will represent
David --
STEVE: Well, you know, they read that to me
yesterday. So you can throw that --
JOHN DOLAN: well, you --
V STEVE: -- in. It don't matter.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. we'll throw it -- it's
good for o y ur records. You know, you know you know
where to --
STEVE: It doesn't matter to me --
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE: -- in honesty. But you know, if you
want to throw that in, it's okay. I'd rather --
JOHN DOLAN: You know, it's -- 1'11 be
honest.
STEVE: - I'd rather see those magazines --
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I 1 1 JOHN DOLAN: I appreciate that.
' 2 STEVE: -- because of what was stated Friday
1 3 and since so --
4 JOHN DOLAN: I appreciate that. But it's
S something you need to have, you know what I mean?
6STEVE: Okay. All right.
JOHN DOLAN: YOU
8 you to have it. I want you to have it.
' 9
92 STEVE: There was something -- what about
10: that 12-minute tape from Dr. Arnold?
11 JOHN DOLAN: We'll work that out at another
12. time. But, but that's --7need to have. And I want
I 13 STEVE: Really?
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E 14 A JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. That's what the t 1
ly o d me
15 they wanted to deliver.
16 STEVE: You guys, they're really --
17JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
18 STEVE: -- it doesn't -- I'm telling you.
1 19 Keep the thing then. It does not --
' 20 JOHNDOLAN: No, no, no.
STEVE: No, no21 *
, no. You tell --
22 JOHN DOLAN:No, no. Look, Steve --
STEVE: -- no, listen. No, wait, wait,
g 24. wait --~ 23
1 2sJOHN DOLAN: -- it's a 1'ittle, it's a half
step.
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1 STEVE: --
2 wait now. I'm going
3 even need to talk. Now
4 I like you.
6 STEVE: But I
7 ya fact here now.
8 JOHN DOLAN:
I STEVE: You
information, leave it
I'm - look, they can
i as plain as I can put
more vehicles and the
to do it today.
have been from Friday.
yat. Don't worry about
want
that we tho h
I'll
people have. I m '
a relationship that has
from Friday. 'Or do show some goodw 1
ug t we had. If, if we loo
tell you exactly wh t
ean I m telling you those44
no, no, no. No, no, no. No. Now
to put down the phone. We won't
you listen to me careful, John.
5 JOHN DOLAN: I like you too.
m telling you something that is
Go ahead.
tell them to bring that
all off. We will look at it or
do what they want to do. That's
it. If they want to run over
building with us in it, tell them
1 1 again like should
Show information we can look
the derogatory magazines. We
to see a principle here that was put into effect
k at it that,
a they think. It's not oin9 9
to make any difference. It comes down t
comes down to their seein tho God. It
g e kind of goodwill you
guys damaged
really been hard to recover
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7*~ JOHN Djust --
2 STEVE:92
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If they wanted to flip th ta
3 electri '
4 JOHN DOLAN:
9°t,
V 5 gI've got s 'omething here ~-
8 directly that
9
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8 1this?
JOHN
person. We'll
JOHN
STEVE
out we a dcity back on when John
g zines. Now that
that's pretty blunt.
STEVE:em when God has
sorted this whole thin
JOHN DOLAN:
STEVE: when
, n I ~- they,Cox and I --
All right, this - I've
Y-
OLAN: - from the command
came in with th
STEVE: All right.
DOLAN: Okay. They said send
send in all the ma a '
Tell them I'll see th
g out, okay?
DOLAN: Wait a minute. Wait --
: Tell them that.
Wait --
God has sorted this whole thing
myself, we'll stand in the
judgment. I'll tak 'e what's coming to me. They are
going to h ave todo the same thing. All that th 'ey ve
done in their liv '
that. I want to
truth.
JOHN DOes just like me. I'm willing to do
do it. I want -- I'm telling you the
LAN: I know.ers. This is
is. Okay, you ready for
us out a
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1 STEVE: I'm not going to play -~ these people
2 aren't here to la ap y nymore games. Nobody's coming out
l they see something. They told me that. I went
4~ around this buildin . Ig can ask them to single file
5 line up b th
6y is telephone. I'll walk away. Wayne will
be away. David's never nearby the phone when someone's
on it. Never has been --
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: - unless it's brought to his room
and someone comes to his room. You tell Ricks that,
and tell him to get his facts straight. I don't know
Iwhere he gets that kind of nonsense from. He made all
sorts of crap and nonsense that he gave out to the
press. That doesn't, that - those are the kind of
hthings that damage any kind of a relations
are trying to establish.hip you and I
So when we hear this man over on the airwaves
like that and the statements he's making and his
statements making David look all the more like a mad
cult leader on the -- these people, they already, they
get to hear the logic coming from the book. And if
they think they're brainwashed, these people would even
sit down - send some psychologists out. They'll spend
hours with you.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: Give them any kind of a test you want
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9 Th ' '
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1 to. Try them out.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: These are people that have to makea
4 decision every day of their life. And they have long
5before you people came on us.
6 Let me say this. The ATP
months for this. David toldprepared for 9
me to tell you people he's
e people here have sinc '
at s quite a statement. And he can give that out on
the airwaves if you want.
JOHN DOLAN: That's pretty - that's '85?
I STEVE: Since 1985.
JOHN DOLAN: Steve, there's on e other thing
somebodys --
STEVE: Yeah, go ahead.
JOHN DOLAN: -- I didn't even know this was
in there. But I think this is important. And what it
is is a response from the United States Attorney's
Office concerning the property. So I think that's
something that probably the people inthere would like
to know.
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: It's going to be in writing? It's
going to be dropped --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, it's going to --
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STEVE: - off also?
JOHN DOLAN: Yes, sir.
STEVE: Great. So you know --
JOHN DOLAN: So I think you need that --
STEVE: -- tell those commanders send all the
information including the tape from Arnold, the
*gwsweek. We'll look at all the information. And I'll
istart --
92 JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay.
STEVE: -- and I'll meet you tomorrow out
front. They can have 20, 50, 100 snipers out there if
they want. It doesn't matter to me. I'll meet with
you. We'll talk about these things, and I'm going to
be as frank and forthright as possible.
JOHN DOLAN: That's, that's what --
STEVE: And I'll even bring tapes out from
people as to what they think of the information or what
they think of you and, and if they want to come out.
If you want to, bring a list of questions that you
would like to have them answer. Or if you would like
to know some things, I'll hand out even -- anything you
want to do, I'm willing to do.
JOHN DOLAN: I know that, Steve --
STEVE: But first let's really get on the
ball together right here with them giving --
JOHN DOLAN: That's what I'm saying.
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STEVE: That's what I'm saying too. But
don't tell them to hold back with that information.
That only compounds the thing and, and more time will
go on. And they're going to have to do then finally
what they don't want, what they're telling everybody
they don't want to do. So let's --
JOHN DOLAN: You mean on the delivery --
STEVE: -- let's start doing it the way that
will work. And that's really showing openness. Let's
really disseminate some information back and forth.
They're in a capacity and a position where they can do
that. We can't. They've got access to libraries, to
individuals empowered, to things we do not have. So
people need to know things here. Let them know these
things. It will show your goodwill all the way
through.
JOHN DOLAN: I --
STEVE: If those commanders can understand
that --
JOHN DOLAN: All right, let me --
STEVE: I've got a feeling we could really
start doing something here.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, and I, I understand that.
I'll bring that message back. In the meantime, let
them drop off the legal documents. It's stuff that you
need to know about --
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the firearms law.
STEVE: Tell them not to bug us so we don't
have to go rip the whole --
JOHN DOLAN: It's, it's just going to --
STEVE: I wanted to actually give all those
things back, you know. I, I mean I don't know who owns
it, if you guys just purchase it through the taxpayers
money or if it's the thousand we sent with the
children. I mean we sent enough money to pay for
everything that - and you guys, like let me say this
too.
JOHN DOLAN: Don't --
STEVE: Bob Ricks keeps on saying how much
you guys have given to us. A lot of what you've given
to us we never asked for. You know, the videos, the
pictures, all that kind of stuff. We don't really care
about that. we believe these children are going to
live forever. If you read, you yourself, if you're a
parent and you read Isaiah 49, you do God's w
accept the truth, walk
children will live forever. That's a promise bill. You
in the light of truth, your
y God.
You read those last verses of Chapter 49 of Isaiah.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay .
STEVE: And you'll see - so that's how these
people believe. So remember that when you're trying to
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play on their passions and on their feelings as parents
with their children and all that. It works everywhere
in the world. But I'm here to tell you that these
people want their children to live forever.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, how about if I do this?
How about this? How about if we just get the legal
ldocuments which are up there out there. And then we'll
talk more about the other stuff. At least --
STEVE: What - say what now? Do what?
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. We'll have the Bradley
deliver the information from the U.S. Attorney, the
information on the Firearms Act, the information on the
search warrant, and the information on the s
teizure of
he property and have that up there. Okay?
STEVE: You already got to hear what I - I'm
not going to even, I'm not going to - right now, it's
me talking on the phone. If you want to talk to
someone else, I'm going to tell you what my decision
is.
JOHN DOLAN: Go ahead. Go ahead.
STEVE: Me as a person.
JOHE DOLAN: Yeah, go ahead.
STEVE: I want them to drop off all the
things that were stated up until this point of time,
the ewsweek, the Iime. If they got a geople magazine,
I'd like to see that. This is for me. And when it
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1 comes to that tape, I want to see the tape. I want to
2 see all these other things you just stated. Drop that
end up Greg to pick it up. He'll bring
it back. We'll start looking at it.y*all off. 1'11 s
5 I'll tell you how it usually works. David
usually likes to have the first opportunity to look at
these things. Or me or someone else, and then it's
passed everybody.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: But you know, of course because thQY
ll believe that he can open up the Scri
there's some_respect. Let's, let's be real about it.ptures, you know,
y JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Okay. Okay.
STEVE: So you tell them to do that --
JOHN DOLAN: I'll, I'll "-
STEVE: and you call me. And if, if
they're not going to do it, no one is going to go up to
get those documents can sit there out in the rain or
the weather. It doesn't matter.
JOHN DQLAN: I'll, I'll pass them along right
away.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: Call me back -- oh, Judy wants to
talk to you right now.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
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2 JUDY: Hello?
3 I JOHN DOLAN: Hi, Judy.
4 JUDY: Hi, how you doing?
S JOHN DOLAN: How are you?
6 JUDY: Good.
7JOHN DOLAN: That's more important. How's
your finger?
9 0JUDY. It's good.
JOHN DOLAN: Tell me about it.
JUDY: Yeah, it's getting better. The
.swelling's gone down and it's healing up and --
JOHN DOLAN: Great, great, great.
JUDY: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: We were very concerned for a
while.
JUDY: Thanks.
JOHN DOLAN: Very concerned. I saw it on the
video and it looked pretty --
JUDY: Yeah. It was pretty scary, huh?
JOHN DOLAN: Pretty scary.
JUDY: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I tell you, I was
concerned. when we looked at it and the doctor looked
at it, the doctor said there's some really bone --
JUDY: They told me I was going to die.
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JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Laughing.!
JUDY: Laughing.! I was sad, because I
everybody else went here.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, you know, if they say, if
a problem and they do, and you
6 do, they'd rather lerr on the side of, of the problem.
.Because --
JUDY: Yeah, I know.
JOHN DOLAN: -- you can understand what
happens as far as not --
JUDY: I wish I had some antibiotic cream or
something to put on it or --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, well I think, you know,
probably what, what would be a good idea too is maybe
getting some treatment of that finger. You know what I
mean?
JUDY: Yeah. Well, when, you know, when
everybody comes out I'll definitely probably have to
get it re-broke.
JOHN DOLAN: I would like to - well, yeah.
I'd like to get you --
JUDY: sounds funny.
JOHN DOLAN: -- I'd like to get you to
medical, some medical treatment. But how do you feel
about that?
JUDY: Well, I'm waiting on God right now. I
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2 JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum. Well --
JUDY: Because -- yeah, that's what I
It's my religion, you know?
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
JUDY: Freedom of religion.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
JUDY: Remember that country that believes in
that? Laughing.!
JOHN DOLAN: Hey, that's, that's number 0
That's not going to change whether --ne.
JUDY: Okay.
92 JOHN DOLAN: -- you know th t , a s not going to
change whether any day of the week or whether you and I
talk or you and I, Steve talk.
JUDY: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: There's nothing going to chan
that, you know?Q2
JUDY: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: There's nothin
change that. That's tg ever going to
he one of the --
JUDY: Free country, right?
JOHN DOLAN: You bet you.
JUDY: Free for you guys to come and run over
our stuff.
JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no. We - it's not us.
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,That's --
JUDY: who's doing that?
JOHN DOLAN: -- I don't do that. I don't --
JUDY: who's doing that?
JOHN DOLAN: - I'm not out there, you know?
JUDY: No, I mean who's running over our
ystuff? I thought that was you guys.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, they -- well, they're not
tank drivers, you know what I mean? They're not too
skilled in, in tank driving, you know --
JUDY: No, they, they are skilled. They're,
they're going over all our things on purpose.
JOHN DOLAN: Steve, Steve mentioned that
there was some. But there were --
JUDY: But he doesn't care. I mean I don't
really care. It's just, you know, I'm just saying --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. How -- let me - how's
Mayanah doing?
JUDY: She's good.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. She's good.
JUDY: Oh, I guess -- never mind. I
shouldn't say anything about it.
JOHN DOLAN: No. No, she's good. That's
good. I'm glad she's good.
JUDY: Yeah, she's fine.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, that's wonderful.
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JOHN DOLAN: That's -- you, you - how do you
feel about her coming out and being taken care of by
her grandmother? '
JUDY: Bow do I feel about that?
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
JUDY: which grandmother?
JOHN DOLAN: Your mother.
JUDY: Why, did she call you?
JOHN DOLAN: No -- oh, I'm sure she called.
I don't know of any particular message. But I'm sure
she's called in.
JUDY: Oh, really? Well, I didn't hear that
she called.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. I don't have a
specific message, but I'll check through the file. As
you can imagine, it's getting a little bit thick here.
JUDY: Yeah, why don't you look and see. I
would be --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. How do you feel about
though? I mean how would you feel about that?
JUDY: Well, if that's what had to be, that
would be great.
JOHN DOLAN: All right? You think we could
work that out?
JUDY: Well, I mean when the time is right,
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yeah. But I mean she's staying with me until --
JOBN DOLAN: What's the time is right?
JUDY: I mean I don't know. I, I want to
wait, wait on God. I want her with me.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, until, until -- you mean
until David changes, until David receives the word?
JUDY: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: And changes his mind?
JUDY: Uh-huh.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. All right. Do you have
your mom's number handy?
JUDY: No, I don't. I, I was wanting to hear
from you if you had heard from her.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, I'll check the file and
see if we have anything, an incoming message.
JUDY: You checking right now?
JOHN DOLAN: NO, it's - they held that in
another section down there.
JUDY: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Hey, it was very, very
nice talking to you. I would -- anything you,
anything, you know, you'd like to say or anything about
Mayanah or, you know, your finger or anything we can do
for you.
JUDY: Well, you know, we're just --
JOHN DOLAN: How about a message to -- how
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9 JUDY:
0 JOHN DOLAN: Oka
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l about a message that we can give to your mom in return
2 if we hear from her?
JUDY: Just tell her I love her and --
4 JOHN DOLAN: Wait a minute. I love you. I'm
going to --
6 JUDY: Yes. '
JOHN DOLAN: - this is going to be a direct
sly.
Laughing.!
y. Go ahead. I love you.
JUDY: Don'tworry. God's in control.
JOHN DOLAN: Hold on. I'm writing it down.
Keep going.
JUDY: That's good enough.
JOHN DOLAN: That will do it?
JUDY: Yeah. Just tell her to -- well, you
already got that don't worry, God's in control.
JOHN DOLAN: I got it.
JUDY: Love her and love everybody. All the
family.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Do you want her to
contact anybody?
JUDY: Huh?
JOHN DOLAN: Do you wan t her to contact
anybody else?
JUDY: Anybody she wants to.
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8 hard. We've been w
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1 U JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. I mean anybody
2 specific --
3 JUDY: No.
JOHN DOLAN: -- that she can call?
JUDY: Uh-uh.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Okay, let's, let's stay
Steve's you know, Steve's been working in touch.
orking hard to get this resolved so
erybody can come out and get this resolved. And
I've been telling --
JUDY: Uhehuh.
JOHN DOLAN: - Steve
everybody in thethat, you know, not
just - that's an absolute fact.re is going to be charged. There's
JUDY: Oh, I don't think anybody's really
worried about that.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. Well, it's just
something I wanted, wanted to pass by you, you know.
JUDY: Nobody I know anyway.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Well, it was nice talking
to you. Tell Steve that they're going
documents will be there soon.to make a run,
and the
JUDY: They're going to send the magazines
up?
JOHN DOLAN: I just the commander passed
me a note through the team leader. It says the
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Ydocuments will be there soon so --
I JUDY: The documents.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
JUDY: He knows what that -- I'll let you
htalk to him, okay?
JOHN DOLAN: Well, that's okay. I got to run
and see the boss. Now he's got something else he's
got, got me doing so -- '
j JUDY: Oh.
JOHN DOLAN: ~- I'll talk to you later on.
JUDY: So should he expect the magazines and
all that or what?
JOHN DOLAN: The message, the message, you --
JUDY: Yeah, hold on. Steve wants to talk to
you a second. I know you got to run but here he is.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: John?
JOHN DOLAN: Yes, sir.
STEVE: So now what am I -- have they come
around, or am I not going to bother or what? You tell
me ahead of time.
JOHN DOLAN: I don't know the answer to that.
Let me --
STEVE: Well, you, you tell me on the --
okay, you call me back --
JOHN DOLAN: I -- okay. I told them what you
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1 wanted. And, and the boss said we'll decide. we.
2 We'll.
3 1 STEVE:Oh, they will? Okay.
4JOHN DOLAN: We'll - no, we'll decide. In
5 other words not me.
6 STEVE: Okay, either it's going to be one way
2 or none. You tell them that. And nobodys even going
ey can go set anything they'd like
9 out there.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll ~-
STEVE: I'll - you pass on to them --
JOHN DOLAN: I'll pass it on.
STEVE: -- David is mad. And ifthey want to
make him madder, go ahead. But they've already,
they've damaged that dump truck. Tell them to do some
more.They vent - and did you find out ~ you tell me
those lakes.
Y JOHN noun: I'm going to --now what they poured in
STEVE: what did they pump in those lakes?
Ask them right now. I'm waiting for you.
JOHN DOLAN: I, I can't answer that as we're
on the phone, because it's going to take a 1ittle bit
me for communication. But aof ti s far --
STEVE: Okay, call me - I'm - I tell you
what. Call me back in 10 minutes. Go talk to them
about either they're going to drop off all those things
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63
that I've mentioned or they're not. And then also find
out about the, the, if they've poisoned those lakes.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll talk to you later.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, thanks Steve.
STEVE: I'll wait for about 10 minutes, and
otherwise I'm out of here.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Bye-bye.
End of tape 15X.!
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1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREAS URY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE f16X
03/18/93
1:10 P.M. 2:12 P.M.
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2 JOHN-3: Hello?
3 STEVE: John.
, 4 JOHN-3: Yes.
5 STEVE: I thought you were going to call me
6 back.
7 JOHN-3: who do you mean?
92
, 8 STEVE: Is this John Dolan?
' 9 JOHN-3: No, it isn't.
_ 10 STEVE: Oh, okay. I was talking to John. He
92 11 said he was going to call me back in 10 minutes. who
12, am I speaking with?
13, JOHN-3: This is John.
14 STEVE: John 3.
15 4 JO!-IN-3: Right.
, 16 STEVE: What's happening with John Dolan?
I
17 JOHN-3: He's out checking on that stuff,
1 18 Steve.
19 STEVE:
Z 20 or were they, wasDo you know anything about the lake
it liquid they were pouring in the
21 lake? was it wire? What are they doing out there?
22 JOHN-3: Steve, they checked on that and --
23 STEVE: And what they have?
; 24 JQHN-3: -- they don't know anything about
25 it. They said nobody has been near there. So if you
could check on that end --
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STEVE: Do you want us --
JOHN-3: -- to confirm it.
STEVE: -- some pictures and send in the fil
or what?
JOHN-3: What's that?
STEVE: Of the Bradleys and, and how, where
they're situated by the lake. People have seen that
something -- of course, they're always working behind
lit as they say for safety as they're doing whatever
kind of work they're doing.
But people have seen something come flying
out from where they were. And it appeared like it was
being pumped out. some said like three gushes of
something. Somebody else thought it might be wire.
But the majority said it appeared like it was some kind
of liquid.
JOHN-3: Some liquid?
STEVE: Yeah, that's what they reported.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Who, who saw it there?
STEVE: About four individuals at different
locations around the complex.
JOHN-3: Well, you know, we inquired on that,
Steve, and they said that they hadn't been over there
so it's --
STEVE: John, what do you think about them
running into purposely like the dump truck and trying3
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Ito roll it over and all that kind of thing? What do
2 you think? '
JOHN3£ Steve, I'll tell you, those guys out
there aren't, aren't accomplished tankers. And I think
that --
STEVE: I, I remember seeing the two guys
lthat were behind Jack Harwell and Byron the other day.
I remember their faces and, and what, what they wanted
me to see, their, their reaction to us. And I can
picture those kind of guys accidentally running -- and
by the way, it was done more than once. It really was.
So whether accomplished or not, I learned how
to operate a bulldozer in a day personally. And if
these -- and that's when I was about 18, 19. And these
guys are how old? And of course, they're chosen and,
and picked from the top of their class and all the
rest. It's hard for me to imagine that they can't
handle one of those things.
JOHN-3: Yeah. I -- well, I, I just don't
know the particulars on it, Steve. And like I say,
they checked on it, and they said that they weren't,
weren't out there. They weren't dumping anything in
the, in the lake is the word I got.
STEVE: Well, tell me - see, I'm going to be
walking away from the phone here. Is John going to get
back to me? Tell me when so I can get back to the
v
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1 phone. Tell him to call me on the other phone if he
2 calls me, not on this number.
3 JOHN-3: You mean the one -- I don't
4~ understand what you're saying, Steve.
5 STEVE: Well, you know, we've got a couple
6 phones here. And I'm going to be at the other portion
7 of the building. The phone I just picked up is the
8 phone where of course it rings naturally just by
9 picking it up. It's where Wayne is a lot of times.
10 JOHN-3: Yeah, but why was he going to call
11 you? I, I don't understand.
12 STEVE: He was going to call me back in 10
13 minutes to tell me if we, if you were going to drop off
14. all those items or not. That's all.
15 JOHN-32 Yeah --
16 STEVE: If you weren't going to do it, I'm
17 inot going to worry about it. I'll go do something
18 else.
19 JOHN-3: Yeah. What was there is, is my
20 understanding is the legal documents that you had
21 requested the other day that Byron was going to run
22 around and get for you.
23 STEVE: One, one aspect of what we requested!
24 yes.
25 JOHN-3: That's what they said that they
would drop off. Because you had requested them --
é .
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6
ve requested many things, John. So
2 you, you're telling me the one --
3 JOHN-3: Well ', we re giving you this.
STEVE: -- the one-tenth of what I requested
»they, they said they'd drop off. Is that right?
JOHN-3: No, I don't think it's one-tenth,
Steve. Because you requested and Wayne did requested
those legal documents. And you said that they were
important --
STEVE: Yeah, amongst other things is right.
JOHN-3: Right?
STEVE: That's -- amongst many things that
would help people make decisions.
JOHN-3: Well, we've got them now. And
they're out there. And you know, you said that you
gwanted them --
STEVE: What do you mean, what do you mean
they're out there?
JOHN3: They're going to be delivered.
STEVE: So are you telling me then they're
not going to deliver the other things?
JOHN-3: I'm telling you that the legal
documents are going to be out there. .
STEVE: Boy, I tell you what. It's like,
it's like pulling teeth with someone like yourself,
John.
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, JOHN-3: Steve --
V STEVE: I'm, I'm asking you a very straight,
plain question. And you're saying they're, the
documents are going to be there. So you're trying to
tell me in, in another way that nothing else will be
then. Is that what you're saying to me?
T _JOHN-3: I'm telling you that the legal
documents are going to be out there, Steve.
STEVE: And what about the Newsweeks, the,
the tape -- -
JOHN-3: No, they're not going to be in
there.
STEVE: Okay, well then let me tell you you
can save some time. You can drop it off at the gate,
the tree, anywhere you like, and that's where they're
going to remain.
JOHN3: Didn't Wayne and David want them
though?
STEVE: They wanted all that I listed to John
Dolan of which you heard over, at the conversation on
the speaker phone on tape. so back, listen to the
tape. Otherwise, that is going to sit out there.
Give something holistically that these people
can look at if you want to reach them. Try many
angles. Try the spiritual aspect. Try all of it. But
why -- I mean keep on doing this. Prolong it then. Or
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I 1 like I told John what David said and these people
' 2 concur. Can I make it plain? You can come in and run
3 them over, blow them up, do what you want with them.
4 Honestly.
E 5 JOHN-3: Nobody wants to do that.
' 6 i STEVE: They believe they're going to stand
I 7 in judgment before a great authority. Just like the
' 8. judges of this world that is nothing compared to the
1 9 one that has kept a record of you and me since birth.
10 Now that's what they believe.
ll So you guys, if you don't want to try to help
l2 these people to understand and because they sat here
I 13 in innocence that Sunday, John. You come out of your
14 home, and you go into prison, and you go through the
15 system. You show me how it works first. You give them
_ 16 an example of that. We'll watch. But these people sat
17"here totally innocent studying their Bibles. They had, ,
18come from all over. Now you want to hurl them into a
19 system and you come
20 won out. Come out and do it. Why
hen you went against their rights as Amer
21 citizens.ican
So you know, keep that in mind. It's not an
23 easy thing for me to deal with when I'm talking to them
_ 24 day by day. That's the realism of it all. So help me
' 25 to show them some substance and show22
them something
they can look at to read and so forth, to look at, at
I
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1 the picture from different angles. Do you understand
' 2 what I'm asking?
92 3 Give me some tools to work with, just like I
' 4 had a week ago Wednesday, Thursday, Friday when Dolan
and I were doing so well. And it would have turned out
so much better. And now you keep on saying you don't
want to hear about it, but you've done a lot of damage
8 to that relationship. Then when you came on the phone,
; 9 you and Mike, with adifferent kind of an attitude.
I 10 When I was on the phone all day long that
' 11 Saturday with Dec, I was really hoping you guys would
12 still show goodwill, turn the electricity back on, and
13 let's pick up. No, it didn't happen. So from there
14~ it's deteriorated. You may have to be where you guys
15 have to do what you got to do anyway.
16 JOHN-3: Steve --
17 STEVE: But I m telling you the only way I
, 18 can see after these people have come to me all day and
19 *yesterday. I've gone to them individually. I've
20 talked to them. Do you want to talk to John Cox? Do
21 you want to talk to these guys? Do you want to share?
22 Do you want to go out?
23 And then I hear Ricks on the radio today
24 making all those statements about how David cont
25 That guy's been in bed larols.
ying with the door closed,
doesn't even wa nt to be bothered by anyone. The phone
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And I told
off those items that
negotiations started
then. Let's keep on
are real. Un
time yet.
measure.
long as you want.something, see something. Let's see t
you've, you let me speak. Now I'll let you10
is not even near him. It's got a long cord. Once in a
great while I'll try to get him to talk to somebody in
mhis sickness. He's bleeding bad because he came down
to where I was yesterday.
Ricks - I even told these people that like
Byron that that happened to him. Oh, no, but he used
the excuse he had to go to the bathroom and never came
back. Well, number one, when Byron didn't listen to
what he was saying but rattled on for hours about
everybody coming out, let's be real. He knew it wasn't
going to happen in the first place. Let's be real.
him that yesterday. I said drop
were promised last Friday when the
souring. Keep your word from
going from then. Let them look at
hat you really
less you want this to go a long, a long
JOHN-3: Steve, can I --
STEVE: Or end it today by doing some extreme
JOHN-3: Can I talk for a second, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah. Now you can. I am glad
speak as
JOHN-3: Okay. Steve, I think we had a
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jerk or the biggest jerk yet,
STEVE: I do.
JOHN-3: Okay.
mean this is John 3. You and
Cox the way we had that going
Friday. There seemed to be a
spirit in the air.
And it's not to take
yourself as a person. I don't
spent much time with you. But
a stronger push and as - when
pushing all the harder without11
misunderstanding between the two of us. And I, I don't
know what gave you that impression. I haven't lied to
you. I haven't promised you anything that I haven't
igiven you personally I'm talking. Okay? And you know,
I'm here because I want to help. You know, if I were a
you know, I wouldn't be
here. I'd be home. Do you understand that?
STEVE: NO, I See --
JOHN3: So I just want to clear that up.
STEVE: Okay, I have nothing against you.
But maybe they had a new way of approaching us or
something. But it seemed like you and John 3 ~ or I
I believe it was Mike
came on a little bit differently than John Dolan and
Wednesday, Thursday,
little bit different
anything away from
know you. Iive not
of course, there's been
people on your side are
backing up to give the
things that they have already promised 't' ' '1 s, it s near
an impossibility for me to do anything at all. I don't
I 61
12
understand why they can't see that. I really don't
i understand why they, they're lacking insight.
JOHN3: Steve, have I pushed you?
, STEVE: Someone's -- right now they're
talking on the loudspeaker. I only can hear -- let me
put the phone down so I can hear what's being - is
that Byron again? Just a minute.
JOHN3: I'm not sure. It probably is. I
vwould imagine it is.
STEVE: Yeah, I guess - apparently -- is
that a tape from Byron from yesterday?
JOHN3: I think it is, yes, you know --
STEVE: So they're going to play that
morning, noon and night now?
JOHN-3: I'm not sure. I have no idea.
STEVE: Yeah, you know. Tell me the - are
they going to - what do you think? Have they -- what
are they going to do? Tell me ahead of time so I can
see you're telling me the truth.
JOHN-3: Steve, I am the go-fer here, all
right? I'm the middle man. You're the middle man
there. I don't make the decisions. You know that. I
just wanted to assure you --
STEVE: Who does? Can you -- hey. Can you
give me some names of who's making some decisions?
JOHN~3: We --
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STEVE: And why wouldn't you? Tell me.
who's making some -- give me some names of people
making decisions.
V JOHN3: Well, I'll tell you --
STEVE: well, you and I know that's -- okay,
iI've got a name Sessions. He's the director of course.
Then I've got all these levels that are bypassed. Then
we pick up at your level and somewhat maybe below that.
Why are certain ones - why can't their names be given?
Is it because they don't want to associate their name
with bringing tanks against American citizens, against
pregnant women, against babies and children? Is that
why? They don't want to have their name associated
with that? Is that it? Tell me.
JOHN-3: You've heard Bob Ricks and --
STEVE: I've heard Bob Ricks. Does he want
to get on the phone with me?
JOHN3: N0.
STEVE: Why not?
JOHN-3: Because I've been assigned to, to
sit down and talk to you. That's --
STEVE: Assigned by who?
JOHN-3: By --
STEVE: Who's in control here?
JOHN3: By the bosses here.
STEVE: What; what bosses?
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JOHN-3: There's several of them Ste, ve.
2 Just --
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decisions?
you know. It's what 'STEVE: Give -- from where? Where are theY
from? Are they from Washington, D.C.? Are they from
d. .I istricts or what? Tell me --
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: -- something about the bosses.
JOHN-3: What would be different talking to
them than, than to me?
STEVE: Well, I don't know. Tell me
something about them. Because they have the control.
And a lot of times what you people are saying and, and
working out with me have no substance It's. why am I
talking to you for, John? why don't I talk withI
directly with the men that they're making the
JOHN-3: Steve, that's, that's my, my job,
I ve been told to do.
STEVE: This is like abroken record. It's
1
h
Iike we're lacking communication and understanding
ere. Give me a -- that's your 'job. That's not a
egood
ason.
JOHN-3: Right now -
STEVE: You want me to give an analo tQY °
that and you -- of
whcourse you know what I'm asking and
at I'm 'saying. Why, why should I insult you to even
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253
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8. In
1 give you an illustrat15
ion or an analogy.
2 JOHN-3: Steve I
that I wouldn't b
help you.
person on the face of
help this situation ri
JOHN3: And
ltalked to here are the
STEVE: Tell
I can -- I'm trying to
Wmyself. Because right
Because you e l
You've done that. You
lie.
I'll go right
can tell me h
that you the othe
You were upset thate here unless I wanted to be here
STEVE: doubt
p op e have not - if Rick
l you guys have done so much f
down a list of things he t
JOHN-3: Steve, I ca
r day and Wayne had requested
answers. You were upset that the w
the hearings were closed. All, just wanted to assure you
and
l STEVE: I don't doubt that. I don't --
JOHN~3: Okay?
that you're the most sincere
the earth. But how does that
ght now?
all of the people that you've
same.
me something about the bosses so
look at it from another angle
now I feel like I'm stuck.
s says suppress,
or us. You've done this.
ve done - we're saying that's a
down a list with you. And you
w at you think about 'it. I ll go right
s ated today, and you tell me
the truth about these issues.
n tell you one thing,
some
arrants were sealed.
of
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NOVh
BS0, '
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that information. You were concerned about the seizure
of the property. All of those
STEVE: Juthings. And --
st about the --
JOHN-3: -- what I'm telling you is that
those items are out there. And now you say you don't
want them. So --
STEVE: No, because --
JOHN-3: Every time --
STEVE: -- no, because you keep on wanting to
forget Friday when certain things were promised. You
have not comearound. You have liedabout that. You
ave broken the promises.And you want to forget that.
But I'm not 'going to allow that Th '. ey re not going to
allow you to do that.
You can talk all day long about one, couple
questions t 'hat we raised. You are the people that
ked us to come out there and meet with you D '. on t
act like that 's some big deal that we wanted. We're
trying to work this out with you. And whenyou asked
us to do that d
fi, an we came out unarmed, there were guys
dgeting right behind us looking at us, you know,
ing around with their guns in total, complete
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that Ollie does.17
airwaves that have been taking place. He leaves so
much off when he, when he speaks to the press. Now why
is that I wonder? It's such a one-sided thing. Let
them know that I'm trying to initiate something here
also. All day long I'm asking drop off all this
information. Let the, let the people know this. So
that the people inside can look this over. Okay, what
are you saying to your, to your comrade?
JOHN-3: I'm saying that you can come outI
Steve. You can come out. You know that Kathy had
access to the media, has access to the media. You kn
And if that is your concern --OW
STEVE: It is notmy concern. If I wanted
imedia --
9
a
to disseminatebig deal. If I believeJOHN-3: well, what is your concern?
STEVE: - if I wanted media 5 weeks ago 2I
years ago d ' ', on t you think that I would have tried to
ain financial means to get on the press or on the
irwaves myself, by time and so forth? That's not the
in the Bible, God's got a way
information that's so beyond my human
ways.
it
de
YOAnd in fact throughout the history of man
Is always been contrary to man's planning and
vising. I mean that's, it's the most common thing
u can see in through the threads ofScripture when
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246
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1 you read it. And
2
3work.
But I'm
4 that don't really
5 of that book, and
5. Every wo d
Noah where onl
STEVE: I
about --
JOHN~3:
STEVE: ~that he has said as sta
But the day is come upon the
and it's a stumbling bl
getting back to thi 's, let s drop off those things that
were 'promised from Friday. We taI already know
more concerned
believe in the
how he's going
r . But I know you don't be
I know there's a lot of
JOHN-3: Steve --
really am.
Steve, who promis
wait18
how God's going to
about your soul, men
same God I do, the God
to fulfill every word
ted in Acts 3, Matthew chapter
lieve that.
world like in the days of
y eight people were saved.
cults out there and,
ock for you to even listen to a
person like myself. But I'm concerned
soul, as an individual.for you as a
But getting -- I know,
lked 2 nights ago
ed those to you?
, wait. Now let me fini h.S
Let me finish. 'About Dr. Arnold And '. I ve been told
ov
let us hear it. Let
STEVE: Okaer and over again you've
JOHN-3: We have it. Wus hear it.got a 12-minute tape. So
e have it.
y, so drop it off. Drop it --
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t
1well, I'm sorry. Let me --
the connection's always not s
always so well onQ:
19
STEVE: - off with those documents, and drop
off the, the magazines. And let's see your goodwill,
good faith. Otherwise I have nothing to work with.
I'm going to tell you that.
And when it comes to that warrant, David is
not concerned. He's concerned when you're running over
dump trucks and damaging more property. It is making
him mad to the place where he might, you might get a
verbal threat. And then you can do what you got to do
anyway. Do you understand? So you know, do it the one
way, or don't do it at all, or do what you've got to
do, John. That's the best way I can say it.
JOHN3: Steve, number one, yelling and
screaming at me isn't going to get us anywhere.
STEVE: I'm not yelling and screaming.
I'm --
JOHN-3: It, it sounds it.
STEVE: - trying to make it as plain and --
okay. Let me try to be a
little softer. I didn't -
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: -- see, let me tell you first of all
o good. I can't hear you
this phone. And a lot of times the,
he signal gets weak. so let me try to tone down a
ittle. It's nothing against you or anybody. But I'm -
0,, 0
20
trying to make it plain and simple.
And you, you and I keep on running around off
on tangents. You -- you're seeing something, and
you're going to say it over and over again. But I see
what you're saying and it's not acceptable. And the
only thing I can say is we're at a loss then. I can
sit on the phone morning, noon and night, but we're
going nowhere.
JOHN-3: Steve, if we weren't showing good
faith, if we weren't trying to help, we --
STEVE: Could, could you tell them to turn
that thing off for a minute so I can hear you? That,
that recording is competing with you. And it's, it's
really annoying.
JOHN-3: what the, what the --
STEVE: The, the loudspeaker out here. I
mean it's about as loud as you are to show the poor
connection we got here.
JOHN3: What do you mean, the one outside?
STEVE: Yeah, I can't -- I'm having a hard
time hearing you, because that thing is going on here.
JOHN-3: Okay. All right. I'll, I'll see if
I can get somebody to do that. But just --
STEVE: I hope they got a radio control where
they can just stop it for a moment. You can turn it
back on, but right now it's hard to hear.
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that?
from?0, '
21
JOHN-3: Steve ', you know, we re going to send
somebody to check on that, all right?
STEVE: All right.
JOHN-3:
that, you know, if
weren't working in
documents that you
STEVE:
JOHN~3
right now.
STEVE:
JOHN3
STEVE:
commanders?
JOHN-3:
bosses here than
STEVE:
JOHN-32
Indians --
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
indians, okay?
STEVE:But I just wanted to let you know
we weren't trying to help and if we
good faith, you wouldn't have those
asked for the other day, okay?
It's not enough though. Come on --
where's Dolan at b th ?y e way. where is he?
: He's up checking with the commanders
How many do you have? Can I ask you
What's that? There's --
How many commander, how many
I'll tell you, Steve, there are more
Than there are --
- than you can shake a stick at.
-- than there are indians, huh?
- more chiefs than there are
Can I ask you, John, where are you
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JOHN-3: I'm from Boston.
STEVE: You are?
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: So you had to come all the way from
Boston?
_ JOHN-3: Yeah, they asked me to come down
here.
STEVE: I hope it's a little warmer here for
you if, if that's anything.
JOHN-3: It, it sure is. It sure is.
STEVE: So you're from Boston, John. Wow. I
was there on my honeymoon years ago.
JOHN-3: Did you see anyplace there or travel
down there?
STEVE: I like the place. I love New
England.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: Super place. I like the history and
all that. I like the people. I like -- I really did
like the area.
JOHN-3: Steve, I just wanted to clear up
that, you know, I'm not a jerk and, you know --
STEVE: I know you're not. I really don't --
okay, in honesty --
JOHN-3: The biggest jerk yet, you know?
STEVE: It was just because of what had
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1 ihappened over that weekend that by the time I talked to 92 , _
2 more new people and nothing had changed back to the
. 3 days prior that, you know, it was a extremely
4 frustrating thing.
. 5 I don't think you're a jerk, John. I really
' 6 don't. I know you're trying your best to get this
1 7 thing taken care of. And I know you don't understand.
8 You're trying to understand these people that are
9 hooked on theBible and that believe in an eternal and
1 10 after life and -- just a minute.
Z 11 me. Just a minute.
ISomeones talking to
Someone just cane in. One second.
12 [9aP]
, 13 STEVE: Oh, someone just said that by
14 llistening to this tape on the outside of the building, 15 you ought to read Isaiah 36 and7 where I believe iti 16 was sennacherib, the armies of Assyria that surrounded92g 17 Jerusalem, and he kept on taunting and, and coaxing,
1 18 and they did the same thing in those days.
' 19JOHN-3: I'm not --
20 STEVE: But that, but that - see, these
92 21 people always look to the Bible, because th
l1 22 prophecy being fulfilled before their eyes like the
23 book of Nahum about the tanks. I mean since when in
- 24 t ' 'he history of America has, have Americans had the
25 Government use tanks oey see
n its own citizens. Can you tell
me an incident? I don't know of an incident unless you
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do. Do you?
JOHN3: No, Steve, what, what - they're
playing Isaiah over the speakers out there?
STEVE: No, no. The people that reminds them
of it. Two chapters out of the Bible, Isaiah 36 and
37 --
JOHN3: Oh.
STEVE: - what's happening out there. You
y read that, and you'll see the similarities.
JOHN-3: I thought you were saying that they
were playing Isaiah over the --
STEVE: No, that would be wonderful if they
lwould. It would help a lot.
JOHN-3: Steve, you know, like I said, this
has got to be a give and take thing. You know that and
I, I do too. Don't -- you know, we've been here for
how many days? And we gave you the documents you asked
for.
STEVE: No, you -e not yet you haven't.
JOHN3: Huh?
STEVE: Not - we didn't -- did we really --
okay, we asked for them. But in a package. We asked
for a number of things together.
JQHN-3: Could you tell me who promised you
that you would get gggwggk and lime? Do you know who
it is?
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Dolan and John
for you?
will take about
he, and he told
So we
back, or he was
waiting as your
were, you couldQ ,
25
STEVE: Yes, I -- yes. Two people. John
COX - .
JOHN3: Did he say that he would get them
Did he promise --
STEVE: They said -
JOHN3: -- that he would try to --
STEVE: Yes. In fact, they said that they
first checked this area. They weren't to be found. So
they did obtain new, brand new they said, new copies
in, in mint condition from Dallas. They brought them
down. John Dolan or John Cox told me it would take an
hour from where your command post is out here
basically. And he said he would do it even that night.
I says okay, I'll sit up a little longer then. If it
an hour, go ahead, get he said and
me he would.
waited. we were going to call him
going to call us back. While we were
bugs were, you know, where David and I
hear us talking. And as we were
talking all of a sudden 11:15 the electricity went off.
I went to look out to see, check the fuses to see and
the, and so forth if everythin was kg o ay. It was. And
I thought well, now, what's this all about?
It didn't - and so immediately David agreed
with me let's call John and see what's going -- he
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acted surprised. I don't know if it was just a ploy or
what. But he acted surprised that that had happened
himself. And then he said he'd call us back about it.
He never did. '
Next thing I know I'm talking to you in the
morning, about 6 in the morning I believe it was. Then
I'm talking to Dec. Got nowhere with him. Round and
round in circles we went. I tried to lay out man,
everybody's unhappy now. Those people that would have
been out between 9 and 12 in the morning, forget it.
And then Sunday would have been 2D, 30 people. And you
didn't know, understand why. I didn't say anything
about the numbers then. But it would have been a nice
surprise to you people I'm sure.
Maybe it wasn't to happen that way. I guess
these, these so-called bosses wanted to do it another
way. Well, now we're working on their way. And it
doesn't seem to be doing so well.
JOHN-3: What - was there any agreement made
and if somebody came out you would get the magazines?
STEVE: No. It was all because people were
definitely coming out the next morning. So they -- it
was already two had come out Friday. So it was already
such a good spirit. You go back and listen to those
tapes between Dolan and I. I'm telling you the truth.
It was real good. I just expected that the magazines
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iwere no big deal and the - no one ever really wanted
them. Somebody heard that something on the news that
there was --
JOHN-3: That's what I don't understand,
Steve, is --
STEVE: That it was on the front -- no, it
was, it's the principle. But once you guys started
making a deal since those days about the magazines,
then it makes a person wonder what's in them that you
wouldn't want us to have them. Then all of a sudden
the issue is well, what is inside? what kind of
information? You guys are making such a big deal out
of it. You'll give us things we don't ask for. But
something so minor as a stupid Zing and ewsweek
magazine, it becomes one of the greatest issues
involved in this event.
JOHN3: But, but the whole issue isn't about
magazines, is it? I mean is that the way you read it?
STEVE: It seems to be from your, it seems to
be from your part.
JOHN-3: No, it isn't from my part. But it
is for you --
STEVE: Well, then drop the magazines off
also, and drop off the tape with Professor Arnold,
Dr. Arnold.
JOHN3: Well, I'll tell you, Steve, I've
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looked at those magazines and --
STEVE: Yeah, what do you think?
JOHN-3: Huh?
STEVE: What did you think?
JOHN3: Well, I thought that it portrayed
David as a lunatic --
STEVE: Egomaniac.
JOHN-3: -- a crazy man.
STEVE: A lunatic. Yeah.
JOHN-3: A child abuser.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: And you know --
STEVE: That doesn't hurt him. We -- that
already was known years ago that that would come out
that way. Read the Bible.
himself
things.
American
It's notJOHN-3: Takes other men's wives to
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN-3: -- you know. You know, all of those
This is the -- and I've got to clarify this.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-3: This is the impression to the
public that is, is given by the press. Okay?
STEVE: I understand that.
JOHN-3: - the FBI. It's not --
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STEVE: No, I understand that.
JOHN-3: - the ATP.
STEVE: I believe that.
JOHN3: It is the press.
that one of the agencies, I don't know if it
ATP or whoever, but passed out even piaza to
when they moved them back another mile and a
whatever it was. So you know, I mean we get
JOHN3: But --
bit of news, they all get the same thing.
it out.29
STEVE: I would never, you know, would never
associate what the press does to what you people are
doing even though in the past few weeks, of course,
you've controlled the press, and they have succumbed to
you. And we even heard that you passed out pizza or
was the
the press
half or
to hear --
STEVE: - information about - I mean the
press, let's be real, you and I. You and I know
they're nothing anymore, that the AP, the one gets a
It's not
like years ago where you had little town newspapers,
and they all had their own opinions and spoke out, and
those days are over and gone. But I don't care.
That's neither here nor there. You know, God will sort
But where we're at right now, I'm still
asking you people to pick up where we left off Friday.
Give all that together. Let me take it inside. The
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people can look at it and so forth. I guarantee the
magazines are not going to have a negative -- we've
expected, anticipated this for years.
JOHN-3: You know, here, Steve, you know, I
just wanted to mention to you that, you know, it
describes adultery which is, you know, what --
STEVE: That's okay.
JOHN-3: - David is doing. And I don't
know, do you prescribe that, or do you subscribe to
that?
STEVE: I, I do not prescribe adultery in no
way --
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: - shape or the Ten --
JOHN-3: How about --
STEVE: - Commandments are - let me say
something.
JOHN-3: How about child molestation?
STEVE: Positively not.
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: It most
JOHN-3: Okay.
public perceives is going
STEVE: I don't
one, there's a man by theIsn't the Bible against that?
definitely is against that.
That is what the American
on with David, okay?
doubt that. Because number
name of Mark Breault that was
part of this, that he's the one that got this whole
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thing going about 2, 3 years ago. I've been in
communication with him up until about oh, a year ago.
And he was telling me some of the things he was doing.
It was being reported back to me. He's worked hard to
try to get every agency of the American Government
involvement, making up lies, rumors, slander, all the
rest. I don't mind. I really don't. God will deal
with him as he'll deal with me. And it's, it's coming
down very soon.
JOHN3: But all of it is portrayed as him
having multiple wives, sex with 12yearolds. And you
know, that's --
STEVE: Some of this is true by the way. But
not, not the latter what you just said. But --
JOHN-3: Beating children.
STEVE: when, when it says, when it says
multiple, what did he tell you on the - he, he did a
tape for you people and gave it to you, did he not?
JOHN3: Yeah. I think they've got it here.
But --
STEVE: Well, sure they do, so --
JOHN-3: -- how about beating children? The
thing is that's in there --
STEVE: That is totally untrue.
JOHN-3: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Never, ever has, not even once. The
~
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first thing that ever impressed me about the man, one
of the first things was when I met him in San
Bernardino, California back in '86. when I met him and
came over there, there's a little boy was whining
around. He says Cyrus, stop that. He said it real
firm but kindly. The boy continued. He says Cyrus,
bring your spoon. Come here.
And he didn't make a big deal in front of
everybody to embarrass the child. He took him around
the corner, and he explained to him why
spank him. And he spanked him with the
own hand, on the child's fleshy part of
on his butt. Not hard. Just enough tohe was going to
spoon, not his
his buttocks,
show as
displeasure as the book of Proverbs says. Then they
hugged each other and kissed each other on the cheek.
The child was happy. I was amazed at the behavior of
the child. And I watched that.
He told every parent that's what they need to
do. That's what the Bible says. And all these unruly
children, children being raised nowadays with the way
they are and wanting this, wanting that, their
selfishness. All of the breakdown and so forth comes
from parents just allowing the free total run of
children that have no minds to make decisions because
they don't understand. The Bible is against that.
God's against that. David does not beat children.
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Robyn Eunds beat her own little boy once so
his bottom was bleeding. All a number of women and men
saw it. They warned her about it. She now blames
David for that. That's where that has started.
All his adversaries, those that have chosen
now to become enemies are the ones that put out those
kind of reports. It can be printed. Let it be
printed. I wouldn't want to be those people. when
this is all said and done, they'll get it worse than
anyone that's ever lived for 6,000 years. Because
truth is a big deal. Lies are a big deal. So if
I'm --
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: -- telling lies, he's telling lies,
believe me he will answer.
~JOHN-3: Steve, here's what, here's what is
understood out here that he's having sex with 12-year-
old children, that your child, Mayanah, was fathered by
David. Or, or --
STEVE: Okay, who's saying these kind of
things? Tell me --
JOHN-3: The press. Everybody.
STEVE: -- where is it coming from?
JOHN-3: That's, that's the perception.
STEVE: What do you mean everybody? who
knows David?
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JOHN-3: Is it, is it true?
STEVE: It's not true.
JOHN-3: That, that Judy Schneider Koresh --
STEVE: I tell you what. why don't you send
in the ewsweek and the Iimg, let us take a look at it.
And I'll give you more answers than you might even be
ready for. How's that?
JOHN-3: I'll tell you --
STEVE: Or let's, let's -- I'd rather even
put David right -- I want you to ask David that. I
really -- I want you --
JOHN-3: Do you see the inconsistency in the
message?
STEVE: -- and you tape it. Listen, you tape
it. And you can play it to the, on the, on the press
conference.
JOHN-3: Do you believe --
STEVE: You ask him anything you want.
JOHN-3: All right. Do you believe David
should have sex with 12-year-old girls?
STEVE: I don't think that David should have
sex with anybody unless they're both consenting or of,
of an age where they understood --
JOHN-3: Adults or a --
STEVE: Exactly. Positively.
JOHN-3: -- a 12-year-old consenting?
n19.
35
V STEVE: That's what I'm -- who's ever said
such a thing?
JOHN-3: That's, that's --
STEVE: His adversaries have said that we and
he have done -- that's nothing compared to some -- why
haven't you even got into things are even worse than
that.
JOHN-3: But that is what --
STEVE: This, this has been coming for years.
JOHN-3: That's what's happening in there.
STEVE: That is nonsense.
JOHN-3: You know? And the press like I say
there was something about a beating of a child, a 10-
month-old child or an B-month-old child.
STEVE: Never. I'm telling you, John, it's
not happened. I'm telling you that.
JOHN-3: Isn't it true that David's sex --
STEVE: What -- can I ask you something?
What child? What -- did you say 10 months?
JOHN-3: A 10-month-old child being beaten --
STEVE: What child is 10 month -- what's the
name. So let me go observe and look and check out and
ask the mother or whatever else.
JOHN-3: Judy Brunds or is it Bunds or Robyn,
Robyn Bunds?
STEVE: Robyn Bunds?
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STEVE: That's the one I just -- snacks the
name I just gave you.
JOHN-3: Yeah.
STEVE: She's the one that beat on her child.
And it was not 10 months. It was over a year old. But
she did. And it was at, when she was at the white
house in La Verne, California. I was around in those
days. I remember how everybody was very -- they
couldn't believe that she lost it and that she did such
a thing. No one ever has a right to do such a thing
like that. It, it doesn't -- how can it help the
child? People --
JOHN-3: What about sex with 12-year-olds? I
keep getting back to that, because you and I know
that's not right, Steve.
STEVE: It isn't right.
JOHN-3: You know?
STEVE: And it's not happened.
JOHN-3: Well, with a 14-year-old?
STEVE: Fourteen-year-old. What can I say?
It's true.
JOHN-3: Yeah. Okay. And you know --
STEVE: What can I say?
JOHN-3: Those -- a 14-year-old is not a
consenting adult. You know that.
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STEVE:
A JOHN-3:
an adult yet.
STEVE: I wasn't
Rachel --
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
know it.
STEVE:
happened.
JOHN-3:
child?
STEVE:
JOHN-3:
year-old daughter --
STEVE: -- listen
Listen to me.
JOHN-3: -- would
sex with her?
STEVE: From your
way we understand things to
JOHN-3:
STEVE:
JOHN-3;-- Jones.Q ,
37
The person was. The person was.
Oh, don't give me that. They're not
even here. This was with
It's rape.
It's child rape. You know it and I
The parents consented before it even
Oh, the parents can consent for a
This is what I have heard anyway.
This is what I've been told. But what, but what has --
Steve, if you had, if you had a 14-
to me. Listen to me.
you consent to David having
perspective and mine the
be, of course not.
Well, you know --
Now listen to me, John. Listen.
Do you agree with that?
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STEVE: Now listen to me.
JOHN-3: All right. Go ahead.
STEVE: Now first of all I want David to
answer for himself. Because I don't know. You're
asking me questions that, okay, what I'm sure of
because of what I've heard is that David took Rachel
Jones as his wife some years ago even before I met him.
This is what I was told. And I heard that from him.
That's between her and him, the parents, the, the, in
fact the State of Texas. All of that together.
So what do I think about that? Well, let me
take a look at the Bible and see if there isn't some --
JOHN-3: What kind of man would have sex with
a 12- or a 14-year-old child? Can you tell me that,
Steven, honestly?
STEVE: Yes, I, I --
JOHN-3: You know, the Messiah?
STEVE: Listen. You're not going to allow me
to answer. I
JOHN-3: Well, go ahead. Go -- tell me.
STEVE: Okay. The answer comes from the
Bible. It comes from what God said he wants --
JOHN-3: What --
STEVE: -- in the last days.
JOHN-3: What the -- '
STEVE: Did you know I can -- let's you and I
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go back to the book of Genesis and see what the 12
patriarchs did.
JOHN-3: Steve.
STEVE: No, no, no. See, you're not going to
allow me to answer. So you want me to answer --
JOHN-3: I'm going to let you answer right
now.
STEVE: -- yes or no and in your mind. But
you're going to -- have you had --
JOHN-3: Go ahead.
STEVE: -- have you had more than one
girlfriend that you've had sex with? Have you ever had
sex with more than woman in your --
JOHN-3: Not a 14-year-old girl. I'll tell
you that much.
STEVE: Let me ask you -- okay. So you have
had sex with more than one woman.
JOHN-3: Not a 14-year-old girl, and I've
never raped a child. And that's what's going on in
there.
STEVE: Listen. You won't even answer. You
think that you're going to hit me with straight on
questions, and I give you yes, no. But look at you.
You're twisting -- but God --
JOHN3: What --
$TEVE= - did you -- no, you listen to me,
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John. Do you know that in the Bible, and I'll show
you. If you've had sex with a woman, she is your wife.
If you've laid with her I will show you clearly --
JOHN-3: Have you had sex with your wife?
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN-3: Have you had sex with your wife?
STEVE: I most certainly have. And you know
that she's David's --
JOHN-3: -- has too. So who does she belong
to?
STEVE: -- no, now listen to me. Listen to
me. She's the only one in the world that I ever have
had with. Isn't that awesome?
JOHN-3: Okay, so if the Bible says --
STEVE: But if you, but you have had --
you've got a number of wives. I don't know how many.
You just acknowledged to me you've had sex with more
than one woman. The Bible before the eyes of the
living God you're married to those multiple women then.
I will show you that in the Bible. Before God, that's
what the book says. Unless you don't want to see it.
If you want to close your eyes to it. It's your
choice.
You can say the book is perverted. Maybe it
is. But I choose to believe that that book has more
consistent answers --
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JOHN-3: Steve.
STEVE: - and that's the source that I'm
turning to.
JOHN-3: I've got to be honest with you. I'm
not arguing with you. I'm just telling you that this
is --
STEVE: No, no. But let's --
JOHN3: -- what is perceived. You know what
I mean?
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN-3: This is what is perceived out here
from the press.
STEVE: Fine. Fine. I'm going to tell you
something. I believe in this world there's a spirit of
Satan, a spirit of the world and a spirit of God. And
one is into truth. The other is into lies.
And so what you have is in the Bible. God
shows how it works through history and how it will work
in the future. Now we can buy it or we can leave it.
You can take all the information and believe it or
throw it out. I'm, I'm either into this thing or I'm
not. If part of this is false, I'm off back to Hawaii
to live like I was before and not to have anything to
do with religion again.
JOHN3: You can come out of there. Because
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STEVE: I don't, I don't choose to at this
moment.
. JOHN-3: What about the commandment I shall
not commit adultery? Is that one of them that's been
excluded?
STEVE: Well, you - have you committed
adultery?
JOHN-3: Huh?
STEVE: You have definitely committed
adultery, haven't you?
' JOHN-3: Yeah, and I'll pay for that. But
I'm telling --
STEVE: Yes, you will.
JOHN-3: you this.
STEVE: So will this man if that's what he's
done.
JOHN3: Yeah. You know --
STEVE: Are you -- if he says that whatever
he's doing he can show you from the Bible, are you
willing to first listen and then make your condemnation
or your condemning statements?
JOHN-3: Okay
STEVE: Then, then he will accept that. And
he'll walk right out with you today. That's why I
would like to - if you've got something you would like
to ask him, I would like to have you ask him directly,
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1 and he will answer it.
x
2 JOHN-3: But this is --
3 STEVE: He's already given that one videotape
4 out to you. He's definitely making some kind of a
5 statement, isn't he?
6 JOHN3: The 12-year-olds is what really
7 concerns me and all the American public.
8 STEVE: What 12-year-olds? Now he will
9 acknowledge what the truth is. So listen to me, John.
l
10 Ask --
11 JOHN-3: Fourteen years old?
12 STEVE: - listen. John, listen to me. Ask
13 him about the 14-year-old. Ask him about Rachel. Let
14 him tell you directly. And see, see how could you dare
15 twist the scriptures if it's not there? How could you
, 16 take any Scriptures and show something like that to me
Z 17 and my mind is so perverted? Why don't you say
18 something like that to him? Then sit back with your
- 19 mouth closed. Open up your ears. Give him
20 opportunity.
2 21 If he can't - I mean there is no question
22 about what you're saying. But if you can, listen
23 carefully. Why would God of the Bible, John, have
. 24 ilsaiah in chapter 20 walk around nude and barefoot for
E 25 3 years? That's against the moral code of, of Moses,
I of Israel. But yet, God had this prophet do that. No
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wonder the man was rejected by Israel 2,700 years ago,
John.
And what about other men in the Bible that
were chosen by God? One was told in fact -- let's see,
it was Hosea that was told to marry two prostitutes.
That's against the laws of Moses. It's against the Ten
Commandments. Now how is it that God told him not only
to marry two women by two prostitutes? Read the story
in the book of Hosea.
Now so what -- who is this God that has been
behind or through and with the Bible all these years?
Who is he? How does he work and why? What's he up to?
What's he trying to say to mankind? Let's ask those
questions. Good, logical questions along with the ones
you're asking. Talking about perversion. Talking
about all the rest of it. Let's bring the issues out.
JOHN-3: That's the --
STEVE: But are, but are you willing to hear?
JOHN-3: That's the only side that people are
seeing out here. And what, what is the thing is he is
using the Bible as an excuse to have sex with 14-year-
olds and, and do all this other stuff, and he claims
that, you know, the Bible let him do it.
STEVE: From your, from your perspective it
may --
JOHN-3: Not just mine.
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1 STEVE: Listen. No, but --
2 JOHN3: Not just mine.
3 STEVE: - or from their. No, but I'm
4 talking to you. I'm not talking to them now.
5 JOHN3: Right. A
6 STEVE: But from your perspective, maybe so.
7 And if so, I'm totally with you in that certain things
8 probably should be prosecuted. But on the other hand,
9 if there's something that can be logically, clearly
10 drawn --
11 JOHN-3: How could you serve him --
12 STEVE: from the Bible -~
13 JOHN-3: How could you serve him if you think
14 that if it's true he should be prosecuted?
92 15STEVE: You would have to - John, you would
17
l 1816 have to close your mouth for a little bit of time and
plisten to something shown from the book in context.
And you with your good mind, your faculties, your
14 19 ability to discern, you would be able to see if he was
1 20 twisting what the writings of that book is clearly on
; 21 its own merit. Is that not true?
22 You should have enough insight into humanity.
1 23 Right now you're making a judgment. But you're making
1 24
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1it based upon not having given the man opportunity to
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truths mixed with rumor and slander and error.
JOHN-3: Listen. I think David won't some
out because he knows he'll be shown as a fraud. But
you remember --
STEVB: Not at, not at all. Not at all. You
weren't here that Tuesday when he said he would come
out. I guarantee he was - I was here. I saw him. No
maybe about it, he was coming out.
But I do believe there is a power that talks
to him. As weird and strange as it is. And that is
weird. It's bizarre. I've never in my life believed
in any such thing as a modern-day prophet, a guru. I
mean I've dealt a lot with people that are Hindus and
Buddhists and those into Shinto and all the rest.
Who are you talking to? Can -- what do they
got to say? They giving you other things to say or to
bring up?
JOHN-3: No, no. Somebody just walked in.
They're --
STEVE: Oh, come on. They are.
JOHN-3: -- trying to find out - well, you
can believe me or not, Steve, like I say.
STEVE: Okay, well, tell me what's going on
then. Because you're --
JOHN-3: Okay.
STEVE: - half hardly listening to me.
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JOHN-3: No, I am listening to every word
you're saying.
STEVE: It's just that someone else is
talking to me just now has just walked in. Just a
minute.
[QED]
STEVE: Could you turn that, that box off
during, the speakers off during our worship hour? It's
now --
JOHN-3: I'll, I'll do, I'll see --
STEVE: -- it's 5 minutes after 2, from 2 to
3 we would definitely appreciate that. You will
absolutely get nowhere with these people if you don't.
If you show such disrespect, there's no sense in even
talking to me.
JOHN-3: Steve, I just want to ask you one
thing. would a good God believe in, in people having
sex with a 14-year-old?
STEVE: Do you want to get in that -- are you
asking because you --
JOHN-3: I just, I --
STEVE: -- listen to me now.
JOHN-3: I just want to ask you personally.
STEVE: Are you asking me a question that
you're really willing to hear an answer?
JOHN-3: I want to hear what you have to say.
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STEVE: And I want to give you an answer. I
want to give you an answer that may save your life. In
fact, you know that I believe it will.
JOHN-3: Go ahead.
STEVE: And the answer is going to be I'm
going to - I want to turn the phone over to David who
will give you the answer for his actions. And I want
you to be able to ask him all the things that you
raised to me.
JOHN3: Fine.
STEVE: Because there
When it comes right down to it,
really done. And if you've got
can nail him down on that. Sayis -- you know what?
only he knows what he's
some information, you
we have this. We have
that. We want to know. And then listen. Then listen.
I really believe he will tell you, John. I really
believe that. And if he doesn't, I'll get back on the
phone with you, and we'll talk about it.
JOHN3: Steve, I just want to leave this
that, you know, you know, I'm here to help, okay? But
these are some issues, those magazines are a big thing.
Frankly, they don't serve you well if, if David's
trying to get his message out.
STEVE: That's okay. You don't - see,
you've got this cult, this mentality about cults and so
forth, what they are, their mind set and so forth.
Q O 49
You've talked to psychologists, theologians that are
supposed to be versed in these kind of things. They
don't know what they're talking about. The
philosophies of men are always so full of holes and
fallible as you should already know.
Let's, let's be real here. I mean we already
know. I mean things like this have been coming for
years. If it wasn't one thing, it was another. It's
always been this way. You've got Martin Luther
stepping out aside from the Roman papacy. And right
away he's - they want to take his life. Read history.
And right away they're slandering the man every which
way possible. It's the way the spirit of Satan has
always been.
Now I know you see this as some rambling on
about someone, how cults always do this. Maybe so.
Maybe there's a --
JOHN-3: Steve, you know you're not going to
convert me, right? You, you know --
STEVE: I'm not trying to convert you.
JOHN-3: You know, but --
STEVE: I'm trying to help you understand how
I think and how these people think here.
JOHN-3: All right. Now --
STEVE: And if it sounds like we're
brainwashed and like we're stuck on something, maybe we
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are. But in this world what are you brain -- what do
you fill your mind full of? Things that pertain to
catching a vision of something better or something that
you, you think that you have some hope in this earth
where it's a cemetery, everything dies here? Do you
see a way out of this mess yourself? If you've got a
better way, a better plan, a better idea --
JOHN-3: I'll tell you what, Steve. I'll
interrupt you right there. I'll settle with the God
that I believe in when I die. But I will not hide
behind a bunch of innocent children, you know? I'll
not hide behind a bunch of innocent little children.
STEVE: If you want to know about these
children, read Psalms chapter 8.
JOHN-3: Because that's what he's --
STEVE: Did you hear what I said?
JOHN-3: -- that's also the perception, okay?
STEVE: I don't really care what the --
JOHN3: That David is using the --
STEVE: This world is ripe for judgment just
like in the days of Noah. You have no ears to hear,
John. You really don't. You have a God. What is your
God based upon, John? Is it based on the Bible? Is it
based on your feelings? What is it based on, your
experience in life? Can you tell me something about
your God? Maybe I'll go over to your God.
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JOHN-3: I'll tell you what, Steve. I keep
that personal. I don't try to force other people to
believe in it.
STEVE: Well, then your God is -- whatever
your God is he may, must not be too strong. If you
keep it personal, he must not be worthwhile sharing
about, or maybe he's not able to do anything. But if
he's -- if your God is good, if you've got something
there, I don't know why you wouldn't want to share it
with me. Maybe it would cause me to come out of here.
JOHN-3: Steve, my God doesn't promote having
sex with 14-year-old girls, I can tell you that.
STEVE: Does he promote having sex with
multiple women but not claiming that they're your
wives?
JOHN-3: I told you --
STEVE: Because that's the way God looks at
it in the Bible.
JOHN-3: -- I haven't done that. And I will
settle for my sins, whatever they may be, with the God
I believe in. And I respect your faith. But you know,
not with having sex with 14-year-old girls.
STEVE: I haven't had.
JOHN-3: David has.
STEVE: Ask him.
JOHN-3: He's already admitted it.
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STEVE: Okay, ask him why. Ask him if there
might be a reason from the Bible for that.
JOHN-3: How does he - you know, this is --
STEVE: Well, well, if you want to know give
him -- John, come on. Give him opportunity. Maybe
you'll learn something on the way maybe some nut works
or something like that. And in the future you would
know how to handle him better. Give him opportunity to
show you or explain to you why and how, the reasons for
it.
Wouldn't it be awesome if there was some kind
of a logical reason? It's hard to believe that there
could be, isn't it? But maybe if you waited to hear
for just a little bit of time, those people that are
there listening right now, who knows what they might
pick up on and might be able to utilize in the future.
JOHN3: It's -- Steve, it - no matter what
he tells me, the perception of him from the press, all
over the country, is that he's a child molester and
he's hiding behind a bunch of children. Now I wanted
to ask you one thing. 4
STEVE: Sure.
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questions about Judy. Because I'm going to answer for
myself. If you've got any questions for her, you can
ask her.
And when it -- if it comes to anything aside
from you not wanting to hear or ask David first of all
about the 14-year-old, some of those questions I'm
going to wait for him to give you a foundation and a
platform. If you don't want that, I'm not going to get
into your personal life any further. Because it's
obvious you didn't want to talk to me about it. And
the reverse is going to be true and on my side in my
case. So we're not going to talk about your multiple
wives. And I, I don't really want to talk any further
about my one and only wife.
JOHN-3: Whose wife is she? Is she your wife
or is she David's wife?
STEVE: Did you hear what I just said? If
you want me to start asking you questions about your
multiple affairs and so forth, we'll talk about that.
If you want to talk about my one wife, my one, the one
person I've had intimate relations with, we will do
that.
JOHN-3: Do you agree and do you like --
STEVE: Did you hear what I said? '
JOHN-3: -- him having sex with David? Huh?
STEVE: You're going to -- it's going to fall
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on deaf ears. I'm going to tell you ahead of time. If
you're - '
JOHN3: What about Judy having sex with him?
STEVE: -- going to try to insult me about
Judy, it's not going to happen. I'm not --
End of tape 16X.!
U Q
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
Tape 19x
March 19, 1993
12:17 p.m. - 12:25 p.m.
Q Q[3 :
2
Tape 19x!
STEVE; Hello, John.
JOHN: Hey.
STEVE: Yeah. The reason I was calling is David
just had a request. He said, you know, they're playing
a tape of Kathy Schroeder right now. Every has
actually heard it. He said, if you have anything else,
or new, but anyway everybody has heard this one already
and he says we're still working it out. We haven't let
up. You know, we're still at it.
JOHN: Get some new tapes, huh?
STEVE: Yeah, you guys, feel free but he says if
you've got anything else there.
JOHN: You know, it was the boss's idea so we'll
try to look around for some stuff.
STEVE: Okay. But, they've all heard Kathy and,
you know, they appreciate that, you know, she's gone
through and she's out where she is and so forth. So --
JOHN: Okay. We'll try to dig up some tape --
STEVE: It's up to you. He just said, put out the
request.
JOHN: Okay. That's good. We've got it. Tell
him we've got it.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: You know how the boss is. Good. Good.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
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