Document text
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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #119
3/12/93
7:47 p.m. 8:44 p.m.1-7,
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Tape 119!
JUDY: -- because I know there's many you could --
DR. HAIGMAN: well, the problem with that is that
it doesn't help, that's what I was trying to tell
Scott, all it does is delay. Antibiotics only delay
the infection because the, the problem with those
wounds, with a bullet wound, is that the bullet crushes
tissue. So that tissue then is dead and acts as food
for the bacteria.
JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN: And that's what causes the
infection. And as long as there's that dead tissue,
that food for the bacteria --
JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN: -- then the infection will keep
going --
JUDY: Oh, I can see that.
DR. HAIGMAN: -- and that, that's what's -- sounds
like what, sort of what
JUDY: Yeah, cause
some dead tissue in it,
it doesn't heal, and --
DR. HAIGMAN: That
digesting that.
JUDY: So you need
DR. HAIGMAN: Wellit looked like in the video.
even the cut on my hand has
and it starts to heal and then
s cause the bacteria are, are
something to get that out.
yeah, you need to -- what, whatr-'
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has to happen is - I mean first of all -- the other
thing is I'm, I'm sure from the way your finger is, is
deformed, actually --
JUDY: Yes.
. DR. HAIGMAN: - is that you broke the, the bone
on the bottom of your finger.
JUDY: Yeah, cause see what happened at first the
finger fell right down, you know, I couldn't hold it up
and then after tape bandaging it, I can hold it up now
and move it, so people didn't think I broke it, but I
really think it was broke.
DR. HAIGMAN:
'cause --
JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN:
saying what I saw
finger is sort of
JUDY: Yeah,
DR. HAIGMAN:
lays.
JUDY: Right
DR. HAIGMAN:And I'm, I'm pretty sure it's broken
-- if you look at your hand, I'm
on the video is that your index
over the top of your middle finger.
it is.
And that's not the way it normally
It's doing that cause the bone at
the base of your finger is broken.
JUDY: Right
DR. HAIGMAN: That, plus the infection is a real
danger because if the infection gets into the bone,¢_.-_
-
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then the bone dissolves -- cause the infection, you
know, just destroys the, the bone there, so that means
it doesn't even - there's nothing, no bone left for it
to heal. The other thing I was worried about is that
from what I saw it looked like it was pretty tender.
JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN:
JUDY: It's more tender now.
DR. HAIGMAN: Yeah, oh even more now
JUDY: Yeah.You know you had your --
DR. HAIGMAN: Well you had, I see you had your
daughter Mayanah on your, on your lap there --
V JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN: -- and when she, when you, you know,
touched her and she tried to -- was moving around, it
looked like it was pretty tender.
JUDY: Right.
DR. HAIGMAN: And if that tenderness, again, is a
sign of the infection. That was, that --
I had with the other bullet wounds.
say you've got a broken bone there. What
happen is -- the break itself needs to be
see where it's broken and how it needs to
then the dead tissue needs to be removed,same COIICEIII
Again, what, you
needs to
x-rayed to
be fixed and
you-know, cut
away the finger or the hand gets put_to sleep and
then they cut away the tissue so there's nothing left_-__
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for the bacteria to eat;
JUDY: Um-hum.
DR. HAIGMAN: And that*s what gets rid of the
infection. -
JUDY: Um-hum.
DR. HAIGMAN: It's been a long time it's been
almost two weeks so the infection is well-established
and going on now. So the real concern is if we don't
do that is a, is particularly with infection setting
in, the infection gets in the bone, you, first of all
you'd end up never being able to use that, that finger,
and ultimately that hand. If the infection gets into
the bone and gets, keeps going, we end up just having
to cut away more and more dead tissue.
JUDY: Um-hum.
DR. HAIGMAN: The a -- but most, I mean, there
were two weeks, we're pretty much at the end of the, of
the ability of our time to take care of it, but at this
point two weeks is the time where if you still, fairly,
I mean very quickly, if you got that debris - got the
dead tissue out of there, there'd still be a good
chance of giving you a function in that hand. That was
your now -- looked like your right hand?
JUDY: Yeah. ' '
DR. HAIGMAN: Are you right-handed2-
JUDY: Um-hum. '
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DR. HAIGMAN: Oh, well that's --
JUDY: I'm getting to be left-handed now.
DR. HAIGMAN: Well, if-you don't get that taken
care of, unfortunately you may have to be left-handed.
JUDY: Um-hum. There is some kind of - I don't
know what you call it, chemical or drug that dries up
that dead tissue though, where you don't have to cut it
out.
DR. HAIGMAN: Well see, only if it's on the
surface. The stuff -- remember the bullet went through
your finger.
JUDY: No, it didn't. It didn't go through it.
DR. HAIGMAN: well, there's a - on the film there
was an entrance wound, there were two little breaks in
the skin and then an exit wound up beyond the knuckle.
That's what it looks like on the, on the video.
JUDY: You think it went through like that?
DR. HAIGMAN:
JUDY: Naa.
DR. HAIGMAN:
JUDY: Really?
DR. HAIGMAN:
a couple places.
JUDY: Geez.
DR. HAIGMAN:
the bullet crushedwell, you know --
-- below the skin surface --
-- and it broke the skin surface in
You might be right. ~ -
And all that, all that, you know,
all that tissue as it went through
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there --
JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN: - in fact it crushed it and smashed
it so much, that's why it burst the skin. Those open
wounds you have on the side of your finger are not from
where the bullet went in, but, opened, opened the
wound.
JUDY: Huh?
DR. HAIGMAN: It_opened it, it burst open the
tissue and that's the dead tissue that --
JUDY: Oh.
DR. HAIGMAN: - that's got to be taken out.
JUDY: Wow.
DR. HAIGMAN: That's the, the real concern there.
JUDY: Wow.
DR. HAIGMAN: Now also I understand that you had
-- you said on the video that you got a shoulder wound
also?
JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN: Where is that?
JUDY: It's in my right shoulder.
DR. HAIGMAN: In your right shoulder, now, is it
in the bone or is it up higher?
JUDY: No, it just came through the muscle, that's
really not bothering me at all. ~
DR. HAIGMAN: It doesn't hurt you?r_;-
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JUDY: Uhuh. - A
DR. HAIGMAN: Good, okay. Is it - are the wounds
clean? -
JUDY: Those wounds? Yeah, fairly clean.
DR. HAIGMAN: So they're a lot different from the
ones on your hand.
JUDY: Yeah, I'm not worried about them too much.
DR. HAIGMAN: Okay. So then they're, you've got
those aren't getting infected.
JUDY: Umum.
DR. HAIGMAN: Okay. So it's the hand I need to
worry about.
JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN: All right. well see, what needs to
get done is it needs to get x-rayed. '
JUDY: Well I know, but can you come in here cause
I can't go out there. I don't want to go out there.
DR. HAIGMAN: Well, it wouldn't help,
unfortunately, even if I could, see the stuff that I
need to do, x-ray, and then do some minor surgery to
remove the dead tissue, I can't do that in there since
I don't have the tools and the equipment. We need, at
the minimum, we need an emergency department. It'd be,
it's unlikely you'd have to be in the hospital for very
long, just to get that taken care of. _
JUDY: Yeah, but I want to stay here with.....-
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everybody else.
DR. HAIGMAN: Well, I mean, you got to make a
choice. You're going to - you're going to have some
loss of function and some damage to your hand if this
goes on any longer.
JUDY: I don't really care about that.
DR. HAIGMAN: Well, it's your right hand.
JUDY: What, what can I do to keep the poison from
going everywhere else?
DR. HAIGMAN: Without I mean that's - if you
remember, you know, that they - the old westerns in
the old days, thats what people died er.
JUDY: Oh.
DR. HAIGMAN: You know, they talk about blood
poisoning and --
JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN: - that's, that's what - it can
happen. Now, nowadays that doesn't happen because we
you know, we can prevent that.
JUDY: Right. well, what about some antibiotics?
DR. HAIGMAN: Again, see, just like I was telling
Scott, I don't know if you were there to hear that but
JUDY: N0.
DR. HAIGMAN: -- all the antibiotics do is they
delay that a little bit and they select out a more.9
I5-'-1'
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vicious, a more difficult-to-treat bacteria. Because
the - as long as the dead tissue is there, bacteria
that are resistant to the antibiotic will, will --
JUDY: Indiscernible!
DR. HAIGMAN: will, right, will select out. So
no matter what antibiotic you take now, you're just
finding a bacteria that's resistant to that --
JUDY: Right.
DR. HAIGMAN: and then ultimately you have a
harder to treat infection. You got to get rid of the
dead tissue that's, that's the food for the bacteria.
And I understand - '
JUDY: Okay, okay so let's -- I'm staying here,
okay? That's case closed.
DR. HAIGMAN: Okay.
JUDY: Unless you can come in, unless you can give
me some kind of stuff to dissolve that dead tissue,
well I don't know, I guess I'll just die here.
DR. HAIGMAN: well, all right, it's your decision.
You have to make that decision. I just want to be
available to offer you any advice that I can, you know,
as a doctor, as a professional.
JUDY: All right, so can you give me something
like that? - - - ~
' DR. HAIGMAN: No, there isn't anything that works
that way, see, cause it's deep inside. You're the
or 0 ll
soak's that you're doing are, are a good idea, but they
obviously haven't worked. You have infection in there.
JUDY: Right. '
DR. HAIGMAN: -So, if there was ~ _
JUDY: So if I just put the soaks in the --
DR. HAIGMAN: I don't think the soaks are helping,
in fact they may be hurting at this point because when
you soak it for a while, you know, the surface of the
wound gets all wet and gooey. And that --
JUDY: Right.
DR. HAIGMAN: - may actually create more food for
the bacteria. U
JUDY: Right.
DR. HAIGMAN: So, I probably wouldn't, wouldn't do
much more of that and just change the dressings often.
JUDY: And put what on it? _
DR. HAIGMAN: Nothing. Just put a little moist,
the - something that's a little moist right against
the wound, or even better, just put it dry against the
wound, when you take it off it will peel away some of
that mold, some of the infection that's growing on it.
But this is -- that's just a temporary thing and it's
your decision, but I just, I don't you to make that
decision without knowing the full story.
JUDY: Yeah. .
DR. HAIGMAN: And 1'11 be glad -4 I'm always
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standing by, and actually, myself and there are a
couple of other doctors and medical people who are
always standing by, if, you know, if you have a
question or a problem that we can help you with we'll,
you know, we're always there. And ultimately, you
know, if you want to we can take you and get that taken
care of at the emergency department here.
JUDY: But there's no way they're going to make
arrangements to come in here and do anything, huh?
DR. HAIGMAN: It just wouldn't be possible. See
even, see even if they'd, they'd let us and I doubt
that they'd let us do that, there's no way to bring the
equipment in, say, you know, the size of an x-ray
machine by itself. Much less you need a, you know,
sort of like a minioperating room, and that's not
something we can carry in. Even if, say even if they'd
let that. n
JUDY: well, what would you do if it was you and
you didn't want to go out?
DR. HAIGMAN: Oh boy. I don't know. I mean, _
that's what used to happen in the old days. Not, not a
good picture. Not a good set of choices.
JUDY: Well, you know there must be something, I
mean, they, somewhere along the line there was a Thomas
Edison type that figured out what to do,.
DR. HAIGMAN: Right. And that's why, that's whyla}.-
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people don't die of that or lose their hands like that
anymore. See we've, we've figured that out and we know
how to treat it. It's just ~- but you need the
equipment and the, you know, the technology that, that
it takes to do that.
JUDY: Yeah. See once I come out they wouldn't
let me back in, would they?
DR. HAIGMAN: No I don't think they would.
JUDY: Why not?
DR. HAIGMAN: well, they, basically they don't
want anybody to be hurt.
JUDY: Yeah we don't either, we don't want to be
here -- hurt either. Man!
DR. HAIGMAN: well it's, you know, it's your
decision, it's your hand. You asked me what I would do
if it were mine, now, you know, I'd, I'd get it taken
care of. I'd get -- want to get it - it's my right
hand, it's the hand that I use all the time, I wouldn't
want to even lose part function of it much less lose
the whole hand, and you know, if, if it keeps going,
lose even more.
JUDY: Yeah.
DR. HAIGMAN: But, it, it's something that you've
got to weigh the, the choices.' ' "
JUDY: All right. Okay, thank you -
DR. HAIGMAN: All right, well if you, say if youS;-~
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want to -- if you have more questions or if things are
changing, I'd be glad to, to tell you more or --
STEVE: Hello? '
DR. HAIGMAN: ~- talk to you. Okay. e_
STEVE: Is this Doctor Haigman?
DR. HAIGMAN: Yeah, hi, John Haigman.
STEVE: Hi. Right.
DR HAIGMAN: Who's this?
STEVE: This is Steve.
DR HAIGMAN: Okay, Steve.
STEVE: Right. So, was any, any -~ get to work
anything out with her, or --
DR HAIGMAN: well, she and Scott seemed to be
approaching the same problem. Scott's just a little
bit further behind Judy, but they both have in their
hands, they have a situation that's going to develop
into an infection, and in Judy's case already is a
fairly serious infection.
STEVE: It appears to be because it's more than
double the size of a normal finger.
DR HAIGMAN: Yeah, that's - she's, she's
definitely got, she's got that white growth on the
outside of it, that's the bacteria, the infection's
growing in it. ' ' '
STEVE: Could these nurses take some kind of a
sharp knife and, and open it up? would they have ,
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enough knowledge to search -- oh, the bone is broke?
DR HAIGMAN: well, that wou no, no, none at
all, that would be horrible, that would be barbaric. I
mean, that'd be Civil war type stuff.
STEVE: Right, it would be. D
DR HAIGMAN: There's, there's - that's not a good
choice, cause then again all they do is create more
dead tissue, more things for the bacteria to grow on
and dramatically increase the likelihood of the
bacteria getting into the bloodstream.
STEVE: What normally would you be doing? I mean,
do you first give antibiotics or -- '
DR HAIGMAN: Well, no, what we mainly do first is
we xray so that we know where the bone pieces are and
then we do a mi -- a surgical procedure to actually
take out all of the dead tissue which you only do if -
you can deaden it up and make it, say basically
anesthesia --
STEVE: Right, right.
DR HAIGMAN: -- and you then remove -- you wire
the bone together and remove all the dead, dead tissue.
STEVE: Right.
DR HAIGMAN: And that, you know, usually if you do
that promptly, antibiotics aren't even necess -- see,-
antibiotics aren't the answer. They're, they're only
to treat the bacteria that are left over. It's the--»
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dead tissue that's the problem.
STEVE: I see .
DR HAIGMAN: And that - I know Judy was pretty
adamant that she, she doesn't want to come out and get
that done which is really worries me cause, you
know, that's a bad infection in her hand.
STEVE: She's, she's -- I'll tell you, she's so
adamant, she's just asking me now, what about cutting
off the finger.
DR HAIGMAN: Well, that's, that's just barbaric, I
mean --
STEVE: I know it is, and she agrees with you.
DR HAIGMAN: I don't have any experience in doing
something like that. .
STEVE: She's aware, she's aware she said that
there was a man by the name of Ron Engleman phonetic!
and others that had suggested bringing surgeons here
and of course the FBI apparently does not want that so
she said at this time she has not made up her mind or
made a decision to leave here.
DR HAIGMAN: Yeah, I've never heard of that, and
see I've been, you know, the medical guy, actually my
team have been here pretty much the whole time and --
STEVE: No, it is the truth, we have requested "
from time to time that someone come here -- see, we
have never, the people here are not people that attack
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people, that want to see someone harmed the day that
that happened, and of course, you know, I'm not going
to get into all what took place, but people were shot
and killed and wounded with inside, not even knowing
what was going on onthe outside -
DR HAIGMAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: - and, a lot of, a lot of innocent
bystanders and people that didn't even know what was
going on, and right from the beginning, we were hoping
I mean, these people were -- after that happened
they were afraid. I'm telling you, that's why a lot of
them have not moved out yet. '
' DR HAIGMAN: well, that's, that's --
STEVEI And they're waiting to see, you know, the
process, we're trying to leave a few out here and there
and there's some that are choosing to, I'm trying to
encourage them.
DR HAIGMAN: Well, Steve --
STEVE: Yeah.
DR HAIGMAN : -
talking to the wrong
STEVE: I know,
the request has beenthose are - I mean -- you're
person.
I know I am, but I mean though,
for medical help. There really
has been. And she apparently has made up her mind at_
this time she doesn't, she doesn't choose to come out
until she sees more, but as time goes on, of course,-:_.-_
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it's worse, it's worse for her.
DR HAIGMAN: If we could help, you know, if I
could, or if my team here could help you in there we
would. But there's just, I mean, the eguipment and the
things we need to do are not things that you could do
in somebody's house, which is --
STEVE: Well, even if you could do, even the least
amount that you could do would be better than nothing.
DR HAIGMAN: I'll, I'll talk to my team here --
STEVE: I would --
DR HAIGMAN: -- and see if anybody has any ideas.
STEVE: I would appreciate that because we're
going to keep on working like I have been with people
like John Cox and many others and, and people are
deciding to come, but, you know, the majority are still
- it's going to take a little time yet.
DR HAIGMAN: Well, if the guys who are at risk for
infection -- the risk of, you know, it's - the clock
is ticking for them and that's what --
STEVE: I, I believe --
DR HAIGMAN: - worries me.
STEVE: - I believe that. That's why I'm hoping
that -- and until then maybe you or someone like your
team could come and -- I guarantee if anything - I "
mean, I would go out with you, I mean, whatever, but I
guarantee you there'd never be anything that ever yQ..-
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happened to any -- '
DR HAIGMAN: We'd just have to figure out ~ I
can't think of anything that could possibly be done in
that environment. That's just a problem. It's not a
question of, of, choosing not to do something, it's
just ~-
STEVE: Right.
DR HAIGMAN: - there's nothing you can do in that
in there.
STEVE: Even if you went by -- without taking an
xray, if you went by sight or by opening it up and
trying to do whatever needed to be done with the bones
by sight or by however you would clean it up would be
better than the way it is now, of course.
DR HAIGMAN: I don't know about that, I say, it's
pretty barbaric to talk about doing that. But it's --
STEVE: But you'd be able to at least, use local
anesthetic or whatever else you do and --
DR HAIGMAN: But you see we don't have an xray
and we won't know where -- what we're doing.
STEVE: Probably with the years you have, though,
in experience -- the whole thing is, you know, like you
said, it's, it's going to get bad, it's going to get
worse, and it's ~- right now she not willing to, you-
know, leave, until she sees a lot more as to what's
going on and the procedures, so. 'r-J.-
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DR HAIGMAN: well, Steve, the problem -é
you're asking me to do bad medicine. And you
that, that's not -- I mean, it's a bad choice
no medicine and bad medicine --
STEVE: Well then --
DR HAIGMAN: I don't want to be the part
one who goes in and, and does --20
I mean,
know,
between
the
STEVE: Okay, but ultimately, it would didn't
you imply, or didn't I understand that it could be
fatal even if it continues like it is?
DR HAIGMAN: If that infection gets into
stream, absolutely. Athe blood
STEVE: Exactly. And if you saw the fingers, the
size of it already, I mean, it's bad. There is no
question, it's bad. '
DR HAIGMAN: But what I -- I mean, I think I'd be,
I'd be contributing to making that happen. That if I
give bad medicine, bad treatment in there and then she
stays in there because of that and then gets more
infected and dies, that's my fault.
STEVE: Not at all because --
DR HAIGMAN: Because if she --
STEVE: - she made the choice not to leave where
you kept on, even with witnesses and, and --
DR HAIGMAN: But then I'm helping her, I'm helping
her have the peace of mind to go ahead and do something
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that may ultimately -- ~
STEVE: But you already made it clear --
DR HAIGMAN: -- even kill her.
STEVE: -- to her, see, that's the whole point.
And she made the choice even with all the advice and
the risk involved and she would even sign something
relieving any kind of liability.
DR HAIGMAN: I just, I, I don't think that that's,
I mean, I think we're making it worse.
STEVE: Dr. Haigman, is there any way that you
said you -- could you talk to your team -- and is there
DR HAIGMAN: Of course, I'll be talking to them
and if we come up with any ideas --
STEVE: Okay, if there's any way - feel free to
call here or if you'd like me to call you back at a
given time --
DR HAIGMAN: Well they'll, say, if, if we have any
ideas we'll let - when you talk to the folks here --
STEVE: Okay.
DR HAIGMAN: -- you know, and when you talk to
John here, we will --
STEVE: All right.
DR HAIGMAN: -- he'll, he always has contact with
us. If you want to talk to talk to us again or if
somebody else there is also either hurt or sick or just
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has questions, John can always get us. You know, any
time of the day, we're, we're standing by.
STEVE: Is there anything she can do right now?
There's a nurse right here - would it help talking to
her or anything she could do to alleviate the pain or
at least bring down the swell - anything at all?
DR HAIGMAN: well, I mean, the thing that you
could do right now to really help her would be to come
out and get it taken care of. Short of that, there's
not a whole lot to do more than sit and wait and A
unfortunately see what happens.
STEVE: Okay.
DR HAIGMAN: And it sounds like even the soaking
has actually hurt.
STEVE: Hmmm.
DR HAIGMAN: SO -
STEVE: wow.
DR HAIGMAN: I know, it's ultimately,
unfortunately their decision, I just want them to know
what they're buying into and --
STEVE: Right.
DR HAIGMAN: - and I just cannot think of
anything that --
STEVE: I mean the awesome part of it, I mean I --
this is not your aspect or part of this program I know,
but the awesome part is here she was, minding her own&'p-
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business, innocent, not part of anything, going to go
to a Bible study --
DR HAIGMAN: That's not something - see I, I --
STEVE: You know what I'm saying? _
DR HAIGMAN: - I just want to --
STEVE: Now here the person has to come out and go
through who knows what, not being promised to come back
to her home -- hasn't done, I mean --
DR HAIGMAN: Yeah, I'm not the --
STEVE: -- you understand what I'm saying?
DR HAIGMAN: I -- but I'm not the one --
STEVE: Here's a, here's a human being in humanity
pleading for help to, you know, surgeons and doctors
who give oaths to help and so forth - well, you know?
DR HAIGMAN: I'd be glad to help you but I can't
help you with --
STEVE: Okay.
DR HAIGMAN: - that part of it. See that's --
STEVE: Thanks, John, anyways --
DR HAIGMAN: Okay.
STEVE: - so if you want to put on John Cox,
fine.
DR HAIGMAN: Okay.
STEVE: Okay.
DR HAIGMAN: Bye.
JOHN COX: Hey.15;»-
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STEVE: Hey. '
JOHN COX: He a -- let me pass a couple of --
STEVE: well, I guess --
JOHN COX: -- things by you.
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN COX: Max talked with Oliver.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: After he came out and he said to tell
you and David and Ayeesha that he was okay. He's
being, he's being interviewed by several people and
he's into the judicial process like Judy and we're
going to call his father and let him know about --
' STEVE: Okay, he, he --
JOHN COX: -- his condition,
STEVE: -- when he went out he gave the desire to
be able to call through here himself - what happened?
JOHN COX: That hasn't been --
STEVE: Is he going to be able to call me and at
least say a word and then I'll just -- or to his
sister, that'd be, you know --
JOHN COX: Nobody said anything like that to me.
STEVE: Is that right?
JOHN COX: N0.
STEVE: But I was talking with John originally, he
said that that would be part of it -- that as soon as
he came out that he'd be able to call back and say
~ Q 25
hello to me or to her and then that that's how it --
he had -- I mean, of course, you know, the process that
John and I were working out through the day I was tell
- it helps a lot because these people are seeing the
treatment, they -- V
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: - it's, it's going great.
JOHN COX: Okay, let me -
STEVE: And that's helped, that's helping me on my
part, of course.
JOHN COX: Sure. Hey, and we just had a problem
earlier in the day -- '
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: - that nobody was aware of. Let me --
STEVE: By the way E
JOHN COX: Let me you a couple of --
JOHN COX: David is, he's, he's still - It
peeked around the corner - he's now, he's falling
asleep again but he said -- were you able to take care
of that with John about the chickens? He says I want
them covered, I don't want them to die and - and I
said I'll mention it to him again -- I says I already
did and I think he was working on that, so. Did you
find out? Or -- ' " -
JOHN COX: Let me, let me mention two things to
you. '
O. C 26
STEVE: All right.-
JOHN COX: The decision on the chickens is going
to be yours, if you understand what I'm saying to you.
STEVE: Okay._
JOHN COX: Do you? _
STEVE: I gotcha.
JOHN COX: I mean, that's as clearly as I can say
that now, okay?
STEVE: Okay, I gotcha. Sounds good.
JOHN COX: Okay.
STEVE: Okay what, now what did you --
JOHN COX: And, and that's about the only way I
can put that one out okay?
STEVE: Okay, I gotcha. _
JOHN COX: And, what we want to do --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: -- is get the videos in to you - N
STEVE: Right.
JOHN COX: -- our command people are really
getting, getting upset. They had the impression four
people or more were coming out today --
STEVE: Oh John, don't, don't tell me now -- look
it - if you want --
JOHN COX: -- and they - let me, let me tell you
what -- A
STEVE: -- no, no John, you, no, no, no --
O O
~ 27
JOHN COX: - they're saying.
STEVE: -- I don't really give it -- now look it,
I'm getting a little mad. I'm ser -- I really am.
JOHN cox: Yeah. _
STEVE: It's been a long day, if you knew on my
side what I'm going through, the trying to talk, and
all day long, it, it wears on the mind and wears on the
person, it really does. The position I'm in with all
these people trying to work it out, getting them out.
They should be happy that -- when I said what I said,
these people are -- if they got a problem, you tell
them I'll put the phone right down now, we can leave
more time go by until - tell them to relax, David said
three days ago, give these people time and he's right.
It, it'll work out, and I'm working with them. Tell
them to relax. John, through the day --
JOHN COX: Hey --
STEVE: -- we were doing damn well.
JOHN COX: I know, I know what you're doing.
STEVE: And there's been no prob -- I don't know
what is, I don't know what is, now what is all this --
how come that every time we start getting somewhere and
I, I made no promises or commitment to time, John
understood that. And it's been working out --
JOHN COX: Well, you didn't even let me explain --
STEVE: wait, wait --¢-'--
Q Q 28
JOHN COX: -- what I was going to say to you.
STEVE: -- well you know, I get kind of tired
about hearing about these damn commanders or what, tell
them to be human and to relax because it's working,
just tell them to relax. .
JOHN COX: Well, one of the reasons was, you know,
we went through five days or more and --
STEVE: Well, it --
JOHN COX: -- although we had a dialogue going --
STEVE: Indiscernible! you know what I mean?
JOHN COX: -- we had a dialogue going right? We
had conversations but nothing was happening.
STEVE: Yeah, days went by but David also had said
the last time he was on the phone with yourself, Max,
John, one of you - '
JOHN COX: Uhhuh.
STEVE: -- he had said give these people some days
beca -- he knows these people, give them some time.
You know, they're thinking this whole thing through,
they're - it, it was quite a traumatic experience.
JOHN COX: well, we been through fourteen days.
STEVE: Yeah but you're on the outside in your
warm place and you, you're going on with your life --
JOHN COX: Hey, I am -- . ~ -
STEVE: -- remember that John. _
JOHN COX: -- I am. But, you know --
O, I 29
STEVE: And tell them to remember that.
JOHN COX: -- we, we --
STEVE: -- they're going to be sitting on their
butts from now on, eating their steak and watching tv,
living their life.
JOHN COX: All of our people that are out there
aren't in their warm places --
STEVE: Yeah but, but at the same time -- it's
going to be different for these inside here.
JOHN COX: And, and
told me and not, not you
and the others that it's
STEVE: And it is.
that press conference --
JOHN COX: It, it'sbasically, you know, as you've
as much as David has told me
their decision to make, right?
That's why he was annoyed at
your decision to make it's
David's decision to make, it's not our decision --
STEVE: John, John --
JOHN COX: - we're
arms.standing out here with open
STEVE: John, that's why this morning when that
press conference was given --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- and your - and what's his name, Dick,
made some -- he, he was talking about how David was '
releasing people -- it had nothing to do with David. I
had talked with these people for the last two days,
0 0 30
they showed that they wanted to go, the only thing they
want to do is talk to him and see if he had any Bible
scriptures for them, that was the only -- ' N
JOHN COX: Well you know, maybe it was a matter of
semantics that he said --
STEVE: well, yes, but still but, he --
JOHN COX: -- he meant David had no objections to
their leaving.
STEVE: Yeah, but it bothers me and bothers him
because they all have free will, they will do what they
want and we will back that freedom of choice.
JOHN COX: Hey, that's fine, that's fine.
STEVE: But I mean, you know, it's the way all
this comes across --
JOHN COX: what I, what I -- rather than getting
all upset about this --
STEVE: -- and what else --
JOHN COX: All I'm trying to tell you is --
STEVE: You're not making me get upset.
JOHN COX: - you know, you're answering to
somebody, I'm answering to somebody.
STEVE: well, that's I'm saying, and what you
started to tell me after all the work and the last
especially two, three days, it's almost disgusting to'
hear. I feel like just going to bed and waking up in
the morning and starting over. It's --
¢
O O 31
JOHN COX: What, hey, let me --
STEVE: - these guys indiscernible!.
JOHN COX: -- let me explain something real
simple. If you want to see
see the notes from the kids
going to work getting those
STEVE: well, it's notthe tapes and you want to
that are out there, we're
out there.
okay.
JOHN COX: If, if, if --
STEVE: It's not that big of a deal even if I, I
- you know what? I, my, personally could care less if
I ever saw any of it, in honesty. I really --
JOHN COX: well, you don't to tell those, you
don't want to tell those mothers and, and --
STEVE: Boy, it's not that --
JOHN COX: - that they don't want to hear from
their kids, huh?
STEVE: Indiscernible! it wouldn't matter to me.
David is the one that --
JOHN COX: Is that, is this the same guy I been
talking to for the last several days?
STEVE: You got it, you got it. These mothers are
okay. You know, they, they sent their children out
there --
JOHN COX: well, well let me explain --
STEVE: Indiscernible!
JOHN COX: You don't let me, you don't let me
finish what I want to say to you.
STEVE: Go ahead. I'm tired. You know you guys
JOHN COX: You're getting all pumped up here.
STEVE: You guys do shifts. I don't. I don't.
JOHN COX: Hey. Listen, the last couple of nights
you had the opportunity to get plenty of sleep though,
huh?
STEVE: No, I didn't because like last night I
fell asleep for a few minutes and right away I was up
again until -- right, like twenty minutes later til
like three in the morning.
JOHN COX: How come?
STEVE: well people come and start bothering you
-- somebody needs this or that, or there's a problem
here or whatever. D
JOHN COX: well, well why don't you do the same
thing David does? Say don't bother me until - you
know?
STEVE: Cause, because maybe a --
JOHN cox: Huh?
STEVE: - well see, he's hurting. I don't have
any excuses.
JOHN COX: Well tell him you're having migraines;
STEVE: Indiscernible! Pardon? .
JOHN COX: Tell him you're having migraines._
'!, I, 33
STEVE: Okay now what, what's -- where we at?
JOHN COX: You, you need --
STEVE: Now what's the --
JOHN COX:' -- you need to relax. Okay? Basically
this is where we are. The people I answer to are
looking for -- I just had somebody -- that -- we want
to deliver this stuff inside and they basically said if
you want to see the tapes, if you want to do some of
these things, if you want to have somebody come out,
it's got to be done by ten o'clock this evening.
STEVE: There's no problem with that. In fact, if
you wanted to do it now, I mean, that -- there's nev --
I don't understand why there's even a -- a time limit
put on because we were more than willing to do --
JOHN COX: I don't understand -- '
STEVE: -- wait -- four or five hours ago, by
saying that, they're not good nego - I mean that was
already a given with John earlier. So I mean that's --
JOHN COX: Okay, are, are -- do you have Greg or
somebody --
STEVE: Yeah. Oh that's --
JOHN COX: - that can come out and get the tapes.
STEVE: John, I'm, I was asking about --
JOHN COX: And you want, you want to --
STEVE: You know what? Personally I don't, I
don't even care about chickens and all that kind ofs.-,-'
O 9. 3.
thing --
JOHN COX: I know, I know, I know.
STEVE: -- but when David told - I mean you know,
it's the only thing he really said to me today, he says
mention to them I want to get those chickens covered
and let them have a little bit of feed.
JOHN COX: Well you --
STEVE: And for the first time --
JOHN COX: -- you heard what my response was on
that huh?
STEVE: -- and I -- yeah I got that. So but
that's where it all started. I don't know -- okay now
what time do you have there anyway, I don't even know
what time it is here. .
JOHN COX: what's the matter - I got 8:14.
STEVE: Okay, then -- t
JOHN COX: well I got 8:14 on one clock and 8:17
on another, but whatever you want to do.
STEVE: Yeah, yeah, okay, but -- so do they have
it all together that the two magazines, the tapes, all
that?
JOHN COX: what we have together are the tapes and
the notes from the kids.
STEVE: Not the two magazines yet."
' JOHN COX: Those aren't up, those aren't up there,
those are not up forward yet. '
I I 35
STEVE: Well that's - I told you I would wait
until you have it all together to make it easier for
yourselves where I can -- so we can send someone out
just pick the whole thing up at one time.
JOHN COX: well,we can -- you can - have him come
out and pick those up and then we'll set the other ones
up there and you know, we can work it out.
STEVE: Well why -- I'll tell you what --
JOHN COX: And you can handle that other, you
know, what you got in mind.
STEVE: Right, right. A -- okay.
JOHN COX: And, and you can be showing that --
STEVE: I guess there's no problems then.
JOHN COX: -- you can let people see that, you
know, see the tapes. '
STEVE: You know what? If, if those commanders
have problems when you and I are doing okay, don't,
don't even tell me about them. Because I -- I guess I
was self-deluded today and lately thinking we were
doing very well and because of talking to these people
and I know what they've got planned, I know they've
made a choice and they're going to do it, so don't even
tell me what these guys are so anxious that they
thought they would come out today or whatever --
they're coming, that's what I told John.v
JOHN COX: Yeah. -
U U 3.
STEVE: He had no problem with that. They've made
up their mind and so forth and then, then because of
this phone problem for the five hours, probably another
one would have been out. But they're -- they want --
again, we're kind of anxious to see how Ollie was --
JOHN COX: Okay.
STEVE: And, you know, his calling back and so
forth. You know, I mean, you can understand that.
JOHN COX: Okay. I understand that. And I'm not
trying to rock a boat, you know that, right? .
STEVE: Oh, by the way, they, they're -- the FBI
are usually telling everybody I'm forty-eight, that's
five years before my time yet.
JOHN COX: Oh yeah? .
STEVE: I mean, it doesn't really -- I'm humored
by all the things I hear and watch but I'm always
amazed at how, what little bit of facts that ever N
really come across as, as the facts are, I mean, that's
such a minor thing, but --
JOHN COX: You mean you weren't born in 1944?
STEVE: No, '49, I'm actually --
JOHN COX: Oh, hey.
STEVE: -- forty-three years of age.
JOHN COX: Hey. Laughs!
STEVE: I, I was waiting for them to say I was
about sixtynine here next. '
I 9 3.
JOHN COX: Uhoh, uh-oh.
STEVE: But I thought it could be quite
interesting.
JOHN COX: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE: Why did the -- Scott here standing by me,
he's wondering if they contacted his dad yet.
JOHN COX: I don't know if they have yet.
STEVE TO SCOTT: He doesn't know, Scott.
JOHN COX: No, I don't. I've been asked to do
about a half a dozen different things here --
STEVE: Okay. well, tell me then now --
JOHN COX: What we -- '
STEVE: -- how long will it take to get these
magazines and everything together and then dropped off
at one time? l
JOHN COX: Okay. The tapes are there now, you
know, and it's --
STEVE: You want to call me back?
JOHN COX: going to take us another hour or so
to get the magazines and things up there.
STEVE: That kind of time? Even though they're
right here in Waco?
JOHN COX: Laughs! Do, do - we will deliver
them as soon as we can get them up there.
STEVE: Okay. _
JOHN COX: You know, it's the system, right?___
0
9. 9 3.
STEVE: Oh I know.
JOHN COX: Clears throat! Excuse me. But --
STEVE: IS this '
JOHN COX: - why, why don't you be ready to send
Greg out to get the tapes and stuff and we'll take this
one at a time, huh?
STEVE: Well, it doesn't --
JOHN COX: Then maybe you can handle something
else at the same --
STEVE: Indiscernible! likes the exercise.
JOHN COX: Hey -- maybe you can handle something
else same time.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay? .
STEVE: Okay, so we'll take care of that. You
want to call me back when the other's getting ready to
be done or -- I
JOHN COX: I do, but I don't know if I can ring
you back.
STEVE: Well, try me right now because I stuck the
other phone back on and I'm hoping --
JOHN COX: Okay. I'm going, I'm going to hang up,
I'm going to try and call you back --
STEVE: Right now. '
JOHN COX: -- and if you don't hear from me --
STEVE: I'll call you -- 'a"-
9.- 9 3.
JOHN COX: right away call me right back.
STEVE: I'm going to.
JOHN COX: Okay.
STEVE: Bye. -
JOHN cox: Bye.
Phone disconnects. Phone ringing. Background
voices "..b1ue and green?' Phone ringing.!
JOHN COX TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Hey, hey
whistles! I know he is. He's off, he's open.
JOHN COX TO STEVE: Hey. You there?
STEVE: How's it doing? Hey.
JOHN COX: Mar The ringer's not working.
STEVE: Ah, you - definitely - he's working on
it right now, so - are they how long will it be
before they're there dropping it off? I'll have Greg
go get it.
JOHN COX: Hold on. Let me find out.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN COX: I'm getting as frustrated as you are.
STEVE: No, I'm not -- I'm actually not
frustrated. It - it's --
JOHN COX: Oh, yes you are -
STEVE: No, no -- that, that kind of thing's no
problem. The only thing I I'm trying to keep David
happy with these chickens cause if they.die then he's
wondering what, what the big deal was --J.-
0 O .0
JOHN COX: Hey - nothing's happening, hold on
just a minute.
STEVE: I know, I know, I gotcha.
JOHN COX: Let me, let me just --
STEVE: All right. W
JOHN COX: ask somebody a question.
Gap! '
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: There's the thing
for the ringer right there. Huh?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Indiscernible! the radio
indiscernible!
STEVE TO JUDY: Judy, are they going to do
anything for you at all?
JUDY: No. Not unless I come out there. I'm not
going out there, I told them indiscernible!.
STEVE TO JUDY: It's probably a, a chipped bone or
a broken bone and there's dead flesh in there which is
going to cause infection, it's going to continue
indiscernible! - do you know at all - do you know
about all that sort of thing?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: indiscernible!
STEVE: I was hoping maybe - we should have had
- stuck him on the phone with you maybe, huh?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We should have
indiscernible!
JOHN COX: Hey --
O 0 .1
STEVE: Yeah. '
JOHN COX: Steve. The, the tape is being driven
up there I guess in one of those Bradley vehicles and
it's got one of those, what do you call them? Little _w
Cal-Lum Phonetic! Glo-Sticks attached to it --
STEVE: Oh, okay
JOHN COX: -- either a green or a blue.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: so it'll be sitting out there and
they'll see, it's like a little fluorescent light
stick.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: You know what I'm talking about?
STEVE: So -- they're doing they're driving in
that direction now? l
JOHN COX: Yeah, so they ought to be able to see
the lights of the vehicle coming up.
STEVE: So he'll walk down with a flashlight
shining to the road again.
JOHN COX: Okay it's got a green, one of those
little green glowing sticks attached to it.
STEVE: And usually what the procedure's been --
they -- then they back off --
JOHN cox: Yep.
STEVE: -- to give them --
JOHN cox: Yep.
O Q ,2
STEVE: Okay. Fine;
JOHN COX: Yep.
STEVE: Okay I, I'll be talking to you in"a little
bit here. .
JOHN COX: Tell him, tell him just take the
flashlight and go down there.
STEVE: He's working on the phone so I'm going to
call you -
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: -- in a little bit and then I'll have you
call me back again.
JOHN COX: Let me know when you get them, huh?
STEVE: Okay, will do.
JOHN COX: Okay? Thanks. 4
STEVE: Okay, bye.
JOHN cox: Bye.
Disconnects! Reconnects!
JOHN COX: Hello?
STEVE: Hello John?
JOHN COX: Hey, how are you?
STEVE: Did - I don't think the Bradley's even
moved in this direction yet, has it?
JOHN COX: You're kidding.
STEVE: Unless it did, it '- '
JOHN COX: It was supposed to be moving that way
before we concluded our last conversation.6-Q
U Q
~ 43
STEVE: Maybe they already dropped it off and left
already, is that possible?
JOHN COX:< I got somebody making a phone oall _
right now. ' -
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: Okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: All right you're going to probably
kill two birds with one stone, per se?
STEVE: Yeah .
JOHN COX: Okay. That's about as clear as I can
make that.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN COX: Listen, don't - just try we know
what you're going through, believe me, my friend.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: We understand it totally and we're,
we're not - pause! - it's en route. It's en route.
STEVE: Okay. Okay.
JOHN COX: Okay. But a we appreciate what
you're doing, believe me.
STEVE: I'm just, you know --
JOHN COX: So -- and I know you gotta blow off
steam and -- ' 1 l
STEVE: well no, no, sometimes you're so tired,
you know -- W
Q I 4.
JOHN COX: I know.
STEVE: -- you're struggling to just kind of --
I'm standing, it's -- - i
JOHN COX: Hey, you've had a lot of things put on
your shoulders, haven't you? O
STEVE: I'll say this, it, it's so cold here, then
with all these people and trying to get them going and
all the rest --
JOHN COX: Hey you've had a lot of pressure put on
you.
STEVE: Well I'm -- I've been trying to encourage
them and the rest and you know they start having second
thoughts, and --
JOHN COX: Well, you've done well. You've done
well. You know, as I told you the other night -- we
don't a, we don't have a problem with you.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: You're really -- you're trying hard and
we appreciate it, all of us do, but the system is slow
you're --
STEVE: Not at all, I, I, like I said, if I was in
their, in their shoes and on that side I'd be anxious
too, and I mean I am myself on this side, but you know,
it's hard here too because someone makes up their mind
they're going to and then there's something happens or
they become slow or they get apprehensive and I've gotsf?
O I, 45
to go back and start talking to them again and --
JOHN COX: Do, do you see, do you personally see
the vehicle when it comes up or somebody just tells
you? - _
STEVE: No, because I'm back in a room where the
phone is --
JOHN COX: Okay.
STEVE: -- so they've always got to come and tell
men
JOHN COX: So that, that's over by David someplace
and it's not near any --
STEVE: Well, it's not even near him. Cause he's
not too far from me -- it usu -- it's quite a distance
from me, actually - probably, oh, man I don't even
know -- quite a ways. I
JOHN COX: I thought you said like he was fifty
feet away or something like that.
STEVE: Well he's, from me, he would be about, oh
let's see, what is he about here, fifteen feet I guess.
JOHN COX: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: He's okay tonight?
STEVE: Yeah, I don't -- well yeah, he was, cause
I went in there but he got a little bit annoyed. There
was a few people that wanted to see him and talk to him
and apparently he's still, you know, he's tired and>-<}-
I O 46
trying to heal and 4- so he was - he's still staying
he's not gotten out of bed or moved around where he
did try to get up about three or four days ago, sat up
and tried to even stand but apparently he starts '
bleeding when he does that so he decided not to do
that. So --
JOHN COX: Well, you think he probably got up too
soon to begin with, huh?
STEVE: I think so, I think that's what it is.
JOHN COX: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: And because of that now he's just he's
getting,
side for
tailbone
anythingyou know, he's got, from being in bed on one
so long he's actually taken his skin off his
area even a little bit._ I mean, don't say
JOHN COX: He probably ought to -
STEVE: don't go having that on a press
conference or something.
JOHN COX: Laughs!
STEVE: Laughs! You know what I mean?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: Well he probably should, you know, roll
from cheek to cheek or whatever. , - ~
~ STEVE: But you know, he's - that's what he's
been trying to do, but because of the wound he's got to
u
op 0 ,7
be careful what side and'how he moves, I guess and --
JOHN COX: Yeah, it's the same thing as what, what
bedsores or something like that?
STEVE: Exactly, exactly. _
JOHN COX: As far as we - you got somebody
looking for that thing?
- STEVE: Yeah, Greg. I told him -- he's, he's at
the window and he's actually been looking out it's
dark out there, he sees nothing out there, no movement.
No lights from a vehicle unless they already came and
dropped it off. He doesn't know, that's what he's
wondering 'cause by the time I told him and he went to
the door he doesn't really see anything he said.
JOHN COX: Yeah. well as long as he knows just
leave the flashlight on when he walks out there and
leave it on when he walks back.
STEVE: Right, which he would do, yeah.
JOHN COX: It, it ought to be working all right.
And, and we're -- what we're going to try and do is,
you know, put another package together with, with the
Eime magazine --
STEVE: Right, right.
JOHN COX: - and, and the Newsweek, and --
STEVE: Okay. .'
JOHN COX: Do you think the ringer's working at
this end at all or not at all?
"l: V I 4s
STEVE: I should actually have you call me back
one more time.
JOHN COX: You want me to give you a - '
STEVE: Yeah, give me a call right back now --
JOHN COX: Let, let me check on the other thing
and give you a call right back.
- STEVE: Okay, sounds good.
JOHN COX: Okay, thanks. Bye.
Disconnects! Reconnects!
JOHN COX: Hey.
STEVE: John, you tried to call then, huh?
JOHN cox: No, 1 didn't.
STEVE: Oh you didn't?
JOHN COX: No. I was going.to call you right back
when I got an answer from the people I
STEVE: Oh, that's right, that's right. Okay.
JOHN COX: Let me try. Let me try right now. t
STEVE: I'm real curious about this phone. Okay
thanks.
JOHN COX: Let me try.
Disconnects! Reconnects!
STEVE: Very good, it's working.
JOHN COX: Hey, it's working?
STEVE: Yeah, we got a cat here that just went -
flying out of here it's works so well. ,
JOHN COX: Laughs!6;»-
U 9 :9
STEVE: Laughs! '
JOHN COX: Hope you don't have an electrocuted
cat.
STEVE: Yeah, well that cat heard that - in fact __
it was just a loud ring the cat jumped about a foot or
two here.
E JOHN COX: Listen --
STEVE: Okay so you're working on the other thing
JOHN COX: They said that it would be there in
less than five minutes.
STEVE: Okay, so we just have to watch for --
JOHN COX: You know --
STEVE: -- at the door, maybe then.
JOHN COX: Yeah. N
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Okay
indiscernible!
JOHN COX: And, and let me, let me work on the
other thing for you too. '
STEVE: Okay, sounds good.
JOHN COX: Listen.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Do you think there's any chance of
either Rita or Brad or Kevin coming out tonight or do
you think it's a positive thing more positive
they're coming out in the morning. '
I so
STEVE: Morning. Positively. Cause I, I went
and talked with them --
JOHN cox: Okay. '
STEVE: - even when John was on there and already
they were saying they want to come, they had their
clothes together, they washed their hair, everything,
you know what I mean? They're ready to come and --
JOHN COX: But you don't think it's going to
happen tonight.
STEVE: No. I think because, you know, the kind
of a mess communication with the phone line -
JOHN cox; Uhhuh. '
STEVE: - like that five hour period, kind of --
he says well I want to go in the day
they want to go out in the daylight.
JOHN COX: They're just - they
come out at night?
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN COX: They're reluctant to
STEVE: Yeah I think they, they
able to see what they're doing and I
easier about it in the daytime there
JOHN cox: Okay.I- they all said
re reluctant to
come out at night?
just want to be
think they'd feel
STEVE: - the whole process maybe ~- I think what
the information you gave me and John about the
procedure and all the rest of the things would rather._..-
O O 51
be in the day I guess;
JOHN cox: Okay.
STEVE: And it's not a problem,
JOHN cox: All_right.
STEVE: - I went and talked toeither, because --
them just, you
know, a few hours ago, and, and no one's changed their
mind or anything.
JOHN COX: Okay.
STEVE: Okay, just -- it's there now they tell me.
JOHN COX: Okay. Let me, let me, let me ask you.
Are you going to have them call us at nine o'clo --
yeah, we were just told that it's there.
STEVE: Yeah, we will, we'll be
JOHN COX: They will call us at
STEVE: Right, or just a little
JOHN cox: All right.
STEVE: - because that, that's
worship hour and --
JOHN COX: All right.
STEVE: -- yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay.
STEVE: That's a real good time
JOHN COX: Let me know --
STEVE: Okay.calling.
nine o'clock?
bit after --
usually our
JOHN COX: -- when you get it back inside, huh?
STEVE: All right I'll give you a call. '5;
O I 52
JOHN COX: Okay? Cause there are two videos
there.
STEVE: Okay, I'll give you an inventory of what's
there. V
JOHN COX: Okay. Or if you want to just call me
back in half hour, whatever.
- STEVE: Okay. Half hour it is.
JOHN COX: What time is it now? Call me back at
quarter past eight -- quarter past nine, how's that?
STEVE: Quarter after nine?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: Sounds good. Ayeesha just asked if her
brother called -- if her what or what's happening.
JOHN COX: No. As a matter.of fact as far as I
know he's downtown. He's with probation office.
STEVE: Okay. Is there anyway that --
JOHN COX: That's the information I have.
STEVE: -- could he give her call or anything, or
JOHN COX: We're going to try and work something
STEVE: Okay. Even if it's to say hi, I'm fine,
that's all --
JOHN COX: I can't make you a promise. All I can
say is I can try. .
STEVE: Okay, sounds good.
~ I 53
JOHN COX: And, and I'll talk to you at 9:15.
STEVE: If not maybe tomorrow, huh?
JOHN COX: Okay. And is your, is your guy on his
way? -
STEVE: He's right here standing --
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Go ahead.
JOHN COX: Tell him to go with the flashlight.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Go ahead with the
flashlight.
STEvE:. Okay. Okay, John, I'll call you in a.half
hour.
JOHN COX: Thank you.
STEVE: Okay, bye.
JOHN COX: Bye.
Disconnects!
End Tape 119!-;--
. ¥ .
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #120
March 12, 1993
8:50 P.M. 10:46 P.M.
Tape 120!
RACHEL
JOHN:
' RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
Find him.
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:O 2
Hello?
Hi. who's this?
Rachel.
Rachel. This is John.
Hello.
How are you?
Fine.
Is Steve around?
Somewhere. Have to get him I guess.
You're it, huh? Answering the phone?
well --
Or you just happened to be passing by?
Yeah. Okay, let's see.
I - what I'm, what I'm calling for is
to see if the, if they picked up the tapes. If
everything was picked up all right. And I told them I
was going to call them back around 9:15 to make sure
that the -
RACHEL: Oh, okay.
JOHN: - everything was picked up.
RACHEL: Must not be, because I think he
would be - usually he's by the phone when he gets
something. But let's see.
JOHN:Okay. J
_.I
JOHN:
that.
RACHELRACHEL: what time is it? Seventeen after?
Seventeen, nineteen, something like
Do you want to call back in 10
minutes, or do you want me to find him now?
J01-mi
RACHEL
up here then.
JOHN:I can call you back in 10 minutes.
Okay. Because maybe he'll be back
Okay. If you, if you see him just
tell him I'll call him back at -
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
here by me now.
JOHN:9:30?
-- 9:30.
Okay.
Sure.
All right.
Thank you.
Okay.
Bye.
Bye.
* * "k
Hello?
John.
Hey.
Yeah, we got the - I got it right
Okay.
_-s. . l g 4
STEVE: Someone said - Greg just heard one
of the Bradleys outside. Do they have something else
now already or, or maybe they're just making a --
' JOHN: Not that I'm, not that I'm aware of.
Uh-uh.
STEVE: Oh, okay.
JOHN: No, because we have some stuff going
up there. We've got the --
STEVE: I see. Okay.
JOHN: - the magazines going up there.
STEVE: Right. Right.
JOHN: But no. They're not up there yet.
Uh-uh. So you got the, you got the package all right?
STEVE: Right. Right.
JOHN: Have you been able to look at the
tapes yet?
STEVE: Not yet. I was just going to go do
that.
JOHN: This could be the big event.
STEVE: Okay. Should I -- do you want to
give me a call when the other is ready or --
JOHN: Let me, let me ask you.
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN: There's something that, that I've been
asked to discuss with David. And I don't want to get
into a long, you know - l
O O
1 STEVE: why not?
2 JOHN: - who struck John.
3 STEVE: A long what?
4 ' JOHN: A long --
5 sways: Study.5
6 JOHN: well, I don't need one of those
7 either, you know.
8 STEVE: Laughing.!
9 JOHN: I've been, I've been pretty I've
10 been as studious as anyone out here, huh?
11 STEVE: You've been what?
12 JOHN: I've been as studious
13 here.
14 STEVE: Oh, okay.
15 JOHN: And, and I've learned
16 learned a lot. But there is something
17 asked to pass on to him if you, if you
18 STEVE: Okay.as anyone out
a lot. And I've
that I've been
19 JOHN: - think we can get hooked up for a
20 couple minutes.
21 STEVE: Just let me find out. Can I call you
22 back?
23 JOHN: You bet.
24 STEVE: Okay.
25 JOHN: You bet.
***
"70 0 6
SCOTT: Hello?~
JOHN: Hey.
SCOTT: Yes.
' JOHN: Who's this?
SCOTT: who's this?
JOHN: Is this David?
SCOTT: No, this is Scott.
JOHN: Oh, Scott. This is John. I haven't
talked to you before in quite a while I guess, huh?
SCOTT: You're the first John?
JOHN: This is John-1. You bet. You bet.
SCOTT: Oh, okay. Yeah, long time.
JOHN: Yeah. How you doing?
SCOTT: I'm doing fine.
JOHN: You talked to the doctor tonight, huh?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Well, that's good. We want to be sure
that you did and you understand everything and --
SCOTT: Uh-huh.
JOHN: - no problem there. what's up?
SCOTT: Oliver's sister is right here. And
he's wondering if he's been able to call yet.
JOHN: Not that I'm aware of. I don't know.
But she's, she's close by?
_ SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: should we be able to find him?
1
1
2 JOHN:SCOTT: Yeah.
Okay.
3 SCOTT: She's right here in
4 ' JOHN: Because I don't know
5 or what his status is. And I'll have
6 SCOTT
7 JOHN:
8 SCOTT
9 now.
10 JOHN:
11
12 JOHN:
13 SCOTT
14 JOHN:
15 SCOTT
16 JOHN:
17
18
19
20
21 know.
22
23 JOHN:
24
25 JOHN:
_.-_-,SCOTT:Oh, I see.
- I'll have to find
Oh, okay. She just
And, and - well --fact.
if he's downtown
to - "
out.
asked me just
About her brother so --
Yeah. Let me make a
Okay, thanks.note, okay?
That's Aisha phonetic sp.!?
Yeah.
Okay. Okay. I'm going to try and
SCOTT: Okay.
Is Steve around?
Oh, are they?
SCOTT: Yeah.find out where he is and see what arrangements can be
made, what his status, if he's downtown, if he's
anywhere around where we are or what it is. And, and
I'll certainly let her know or Steve know or let you
SCOTT: They're watching the video you --
-9.1JOHN: They wouldn't let you watch it, huh?
SCOTT: Oh, well, I wasn't there. I'll
probably get to see it later.
JOHN: You didn't get invited to see the
first viewing, huh?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Well, he and --
SCOTT: First screening.
JOHN: - he and David and some other ones
are, are screening it?
SCOTT: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay. Because I told him I wanted to
talk to David and, and he - they may have wanted to
watch that before they came back on.
SCOTT: I guess they're getting to see what
you look like before they get to talk to you again.
JOHN: The big time, huh? t
SCOTT: Laughing.! Yeah.
JOHN: Okay. Well, let me check. See what
time it is. It's 9:39. _I'll call him back about ~-
SCOTT: 10:30 or something?
JOHN: Well, I'll call him back just before
10.
SCOTT: Okay.
- JOHN: Okay?
SCOTT: All right.
..¢_-1,4
JOHN:
SCOTT
JOHN:
SCOTT
' JOHN:
SCOTT
JOHN:
SCOTT
JOHN:
SCOTT
then?
JOHN:
SCOTT
JOHN:All rig
Okay.
Bye-bye
Hello?
Hello?
Yeah.
Scott?
Yeah.
John.
Okay,
Yeah.
Okay.
Thanks.ht. Thanks, pal.
Thanks.
**>92'
Okay --
you want to talk to Steve,
Hold on.
Unidentified male voices in
background not discernible.! Willard Scott. Talk to
Willard Scott and see how the weather -- O
[9aP]
SCOTT: He asked if he can call you right
back. He's kind of busy right now.
JOHN: Has he finished watching the video?
SCOTT: Yeah. They're
think he wanted to see something
JOHN: Well, I need to
something now. He won't be longfinished watching. I
else.
talk to him about
I hope.
SCOTT: No. Maybe 10 or 15 minutes maybe.
.4;-J' Q 0 10
JOHN:
as he can, huh?
SCOTT
JOHN:
SCOTT
JOHN:
SCOTT
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVEOkay. Tell him to call me as quickly
Okay.
Okay?
Yeah.
Bye.
Okay, bye.
***
Hello?
Hello, John?
Hey.
Yeah. So --
What do you think?
well, I viewed the video.
Uhhuh. Both of them.
And, and as usual never in my life
have I ever been close to picturing a person correctly
before I've met them.
JOHN: Uhhuh. You got to redraw those -
STEVE: Indiscernible.!
JOHN:-4 the, the artwork is going to have
to be redone now, huh?
STEVE: Yeah. Extremely.
JOHN:
to do?well, you know what I didn't ask you
STEVE: What's that?
_'.!-i . ll
JOHN: You could have, you could have sent us
out that artwork about the same time that you were
picking up the videos. I didn't even think about that.
- STEVE: You mean what Cliff drew of you guys?
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah. We could, we could see
just how, how well he was doing. Probably not too
close, huh?
STEVE: Oh, not even. I think maybe he wants
to maybe he'll do another job --
JOHN: Try, try again.
STEVE: Yeah. Probably so.
JOHN: Well, how did you like the videos?
STEVE: I, I liked them. Actually one, the
one with you guys I, I appreciated that more. It's
like, you know, who you're dealing with. who you're
talking to and --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: - it helps.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: And --
JOHN: Kathy's came out?
STEVE: -- with Kathy I don't know. It's,
you know, it's --
JOHN: I didn't see hers.
STEVE: You didn't, huh?
JOHN: I just heard about it.
"T"0
STEVE: She really - she actually didn't
really say anything the whole time.
JOHN:
STEVE
child and ~-
JOHN:
STEVE
looks good. It
JOHN:
STEVE
exactly. So --
JOHN:
other stuff was
STEVEYeah.
She was more or less talking to the
Yeah.
But you, you can tell, you know.
IS __
Hey, she's happy.
- she seems to be doing well and
She's happy. But they - and the
in the package too?
well, there's two videos and the
letters apparently to children --
JOHN:
STEVE
Yeah.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
_ JOHN:
today?Yeah, yeah.
-- or something of that nature?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I'm --
And they've passed those out --
I'm glad you got them all right.
well, thanks much.
And is, is David going to talk toIt
[H8
..-.v
l" I, 13
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
him?
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
wmdym
JOHN:
[989]
STEVEI guess not.
Oh, how come?
I don't know. Let, let me ask him.
what did I put too much pressure on
I dont know.
Huh?
I don't know. Hang on a second,
Okay.
TO DAVID: John asked if you want to
talk to him. Could I ask him that? Laughing.! I
know it. He wants to know if you'll talk to him
indiscernible!
[9aP]
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
him to give himOkay. I'll tell him. Okay.
John?
what's the matter? Huh?
Laughing.! He says if you'll allow
a Bible study that takes a lot of
energy out of him.
JOHN:
out of him?what the Bible study will take energy
STEVE: Well, I tell you what, you know --
JOHN: when he started off last night, and I
thought the poor guy had, you know, one foot in theI
grave and one on
STEVE:
JOHN:
then --
STEVE:
' JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
was, he was --
STEVE:
JOHN:
something.
STEVE:
loves doing more
him.
» JOHN:. 14
a banana peel.
I believe it.
He really sounded terrible. And
I believe it.
-- about an hour later --
was, was he on that long with you?
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Oh, I didn't realize --
I mean he was totally revived. He
Well, that's the thing --
- like he was spring wound or
I believe it. That's the thing he
than anything else in the world for
Well, I love to talk to him. But I
really, you know, we want to talk about the issues. we
want to talk about --
STEVE:
with him but --
JOHN:
STEVE:well, you probably can do that also
And --
-- of course he likes sharing things
with you. He, he likes you a lot you know.
JOHN: well, I'm sure. He doesn't like me
0 0 15
enough to come bouncing on out and shake my hand
though, does he?
STEVE: well, he likes you enough to invite
you in and sit you down right by his bed there.
Laughing.!
o JOHNi I bet you my accommodations --
STEVE: Indiscernible.!
JOHN: -- would be a lot better than his
though, wouldn't they?
STEVE: well, oh, there's no question about
that.
JOHN: You know, and I'd like to have him
nice and comfortable when I'm talking to him.
STEVE: Uh-huh .
JOHN: Not under a tough environment. But I
just had something that I, I wanted to, to discuss with
him. Probably take a couple of minutes. A
' STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And, and I could take a short, short
meeting. But there's something I really wanted to
discuss with him. And it wouldn't take more than 2
minutes of my time.
STEVE: All right. What's happening just
before I get off, before I try to hand --
JOHN: Okay, the --
STEVE: -- hand the phone to him and --
.-_-.~ , , 16
JOHN: The magazines --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- are in route.
' STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And I can call you when they're up
there;
STEVE: Sounds good.
JOHN: And, and from what I understand the
way the, the way it goes when they're up there is they
go up to a forward position and then, and then
apparently one of the Bradleys is brought back, picks
them up and goes forward. So it probably takes a
Bradley, you know, 10 minutes to go back or whatever.
STEVE: I see. Okay.
JOHN: And get them.
sways: Okay.
JOHN: So that's why there may be some delay
in, in some of that stuff but --
STEVE: Right. Right.
JOHN: -- the, the two original magazines
were sent up that way when I talked to you last.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: But if he wants to give me a little
short one.
STEVE: Okay. Just hang on a minute.
JOHN: I can handle that.
. a 0 17
STEVE: I'm going to pass you off right now.
JOHN: Okay.
[gap]
STEVE TO DAVID: He said -- David, where are
you at now? Okay, you're busy. He says he
' 92
indiscernible!.
[9aP]
STEVE: John?
JOHN: Yes, sir.
STEVE: He said yeah, he wants to talk to
you. But he says talk to him a little bit yet until I
can get situated in a, in a way where I can talk a
little bit.
JOHN: Okay. Okay.
STEVE: Because I guess it's the way he has,
you know, he's been laying and apparently and --
JOHN: Did --
STEVE: - I don't know.
JOHN: Judy had a pretty good chat with the
doctor too, huh?
STEVE: Yeah, she wasn't too happy. Because
it doesn't look like there's anything that can be done
for her
JOHN: well, not in there there isn't.
- STEVE: Well -
JOHN: And, and I think he explained that to
'0 0 l8
her. -
STEVE: Yeah. At the same time, you know --
JOHN: Because she's obviously got a broken
bone.
STEVE: -- she, she believes that, you know,
they, the doctors are working hand in hand with you to
bring her out to do that one way or the other even if
it weren't so. But that's --
JOHN: Hey. The doctor's got no liability
problem, right?
STEVE: No, I'm aware of that but --
JOHN: He can't be giving somebody some --
STEVE: -- but John, you and I know she could
sign anything to release them from any kind of
liability and --
JOHN: Yeah, but we can't.
STEVE: Sure you could.
- JOHN: To let him go up in there?
STEVE: You know, she's actually - well,
they would -- you know for, for a fact that no one
would ever get hurt on our, on our side, our behalf or
threatened or anything else.
JOHN: well, I hear what you're saying --
STEVE: You know, I can't, you know, I --
_ JOHN: -- and I believe what you're telling
me, you know. But I don't believe everybody up there.
.--0 0 '9
STEVE: - I've talked, I've, I've talked,
I've talked to her -- oh, yeah. I've talked to her at
length about the problem and about leaving and
everything.
JOHN: Yeah. '
STEVE: At this point of time, she just wants
to --
JOHN: Hey, I'm sure you have. I'm sure you
have. And let me tell you --
STEVE: Yeah, you know for sure, right?
JOHN: -- I talked to Kathy last night for --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- quite a while.
STEVE: Oh, you did. Okay.
JOHN: when you went beddy bye on me there.
I thought you were coming back and boom --
STEVE: Well, I was planning --
JOHN: -- you crashed, huh?
STEVE: I sat down and just kind of leaned
back a little bit and indiscernible! --
JOHN: And, and the next thing you knew the
sun was up.
STEVE: Pretty - well, no. I wasn't that
lucky.
JOHN: But I had a long chat with her.
STEVE: Indiscernible! woke me up.
._»'I* V 20JOHN: I had a Along chat Qth her last night.
And, and she said that you've been busy, you know.
You've been going around. You've been doing a lot of
things. And, and I know you have. And you've been
talking to a lot of people, and you've been giving a
lot of encouragement. And she said you've made a
couple of rounds telling people that, you know,
reinforcing if they want to go they can go and it's
their prerogative.
STEVE: I have. To the place where, you
know, I do wonder if some of these people are almost
wondering if I'm not trying to kick them out of here.
Laughing.!
JOHN: Well, you know you're not.
STEVE: But --
JOHN: And I know you're not.
STEVE: No, I know. I just want to make sure
that, that in the long run they don't look back and say
well, why didn't you say this or that? And because
I've laid out, you know, the options and tried to pass
on what, what you guys have said. And, and in
sincerity --
JOHN: Do you know if, if in addition to Rita
and Brad and Kevin anybody else has expressed any kind
of interest?
STEVE: I was mainly like talking to them
?si
Cohen also.today more than anybody.» And I was working with Pablo21
JOHN: Yeah. Now you're aware that there,
there were a couple of Israeli reporters --
STEVE: I knew --
JOHN! I saw a brief portion of the news
conference, because normally
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: But I saw aI'm sleeping through that.
brief portion where at
least there was one or two Israeli reporters that asked
if he was there and a couple
our boss that was talking to
and he'd check. And then we
talked to Pablo and for them
STEVE: He, he wasof days ago. And I guess
them said he wasn't sure
informed him that we had
to --
wondering, John. He
wanted -- he's the one that asked me if he couldn't do
a video with me. And I said sure. And he knows a lot
of government, governmental people in the, in Israel.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Along with
there --
JOHN: Okay.he's got a lot of friends
STEVE: -- and a lot of connections. So he's
wondering if he did a video would it get to the
consulate or to the embassy?
JOHN: I'm sure itBecause I think --
would.
._-_-Q1
STEVE:
getting back or,
between here and
going to want is
way. I, I don't
' JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
Israel?
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
~ STEVE:I, 22
-- he's concerned about working on
or wanting to know how it will be
there. And, and I think what he's
somebody from there involved along the
know yet.
Yeah.
He's asking me about that.
Yeah.
So I says well, I tell you what --
Is he a citizen of the U.S. or of
He's an Israeli for sure.
Is he?
He's an Israeli citizen.
Okay.
Yeah.
Because --
In fact, his name, Cohen, is the
priestly name. It's the most Jewish name I guess in
Judaism. And that's --
JOHN:
STEVE:
even.
JOHN:Yeah.
-- the priestly name of that religion
I'm trying to think of who the heck I
was talking to from Australia whose daughter is in
there with them.
_,0* 0 23
STEVE: Gyarfas? Oliver Gyarfas maybe.
JOHN: No. Uh-huh.
STEVE: From Australia --
JOHN: He's got a daughter that left.
Daughter Sharon maybe? Who left - I'm just trying to
look at my list of people who have called in. And --
STEVE: I don't know of a daughter Sharon
that's left.
JOHN: Okay. I talked to Clive.
STEVE: Okay. Sherry.
JOHN: And there was Karen who had left.
STEVE: Karen. Okay.
JOHN: Yeah. And, and he was concerned about
a couple of issues that pertain to, you know, if he
comes out.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And we went through whole legal --
' STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- legal bit that you and I discussed.
And, and then he said, you know, the concern about hey,
where am I going to live? who's going to take care of
me? And I, and I talked to several things. But what I
didn't mention to him at the time because we, we were
involved in other things is if he, if he's, he's an
Australian citizen or New Zealand citizen?
STEVE: No, he's an American, Clive is.
._-_-,0' 0 24
JOHN: He's American.
STEVE: Yes, but --
JOHN: But I thought he had an accent.
STEVE: He does. He's from, he's from
Australia though.
' JOHN: okay.
STEVE: Years ago.
JOHN: Because I was going to say we could,
we could contact the Australian Consulate --
STEVE: He was naturalized I believe in
the --
JOHN: okay.
STEVE: -- '60s already.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Because if that's the case -- see we
have had inquiries from the, from the Australian
Consulate as to the identities of, of their citizens
who may be in there and the, the British Embassy in
Washington, D.C. has made --
STEVE: I'm sure.
JOHN: -- inquiries as to who their citizens
are. Because --
STEVE: I'd be happy to do a tape of nothing
but, you know, this group or that group pertaining to
that country if it would help.
.___,0' 0 25
JOHN: Hey, if you want to do that, that's
fine. And, and we'll get it to them and --
STEVE: Okay. '
' EOHN: It can't hurt.
STEVE: Right. It be, it be -- '
JOHN: It can't hurt. It can only help.
STEVE: -- what I'm thinking - exactly.
Maybe someone from there can talk to them, and maybe
they'll encourage them to come out as a group or a
body. I mean per country. I don't know. I'm not a --
JOHN: All right. You got - do you have
enough tapes in there?
STEVE: Yeah, I do. Most of those I have
left are like 150 minute tapes. But you know, I've got
about 9 or 10 of those I believe.
Joan: Yeah.
STEVE: So I mean there's --
- JOHN: You don't want to lead them out as a
body, do you?
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: Huh?
STEVE: -- I mean I have talked to them all.
But you know, so far at this point of time they're,
they're still apprehensive. They're kind of watching
what's happening and --
JOHN: No, I'm saying you don't want to lead
___- IC Q 26
them out as a body, do you?
STEVE: Oh, I, oh, I heard you clearly. I
heard you clearly.
_ JOHN: Laughing.!
STEVE: I mean you know --
JOHN{ You flew right by that one, didn't
you?
STEVE: Hey, listen. No, not at all.
JOHN: Huh?
STEVE: What would happen, I'd be the only
guy out there. I'd turn around and look behind me. No
one would be there for me.
JOHN: well, that's all right. That's all
right. I welcome you with open arms.
STEVE: well, that would be fine. But then
I'd more than likely would happen the rest of the would
end up staying here. h
' JOHN: Nah. Hey. It's only a matter of
time --
STEVE: I can indiscernible! --
JOHN: -- and it's not going to be too much
longer.
STEVE: It seems a lot better, you know,
having the opportunity to work with them and encourage,
talk and listen to them and --
JOHN: Hey.
-1--1I 9 27
STEVE: I know with a lit le time --
JOHN: You're doing a great job.
STEVE: I see what's happening with, you
know, giving them a little time here and they're -- and
as time goes on and it's cold here. And they're
wondering and --
JOHN: Hey, you don't know how much we
appreciate what you're doing them.
STEVE: Oh, I'm sure --
JOHN: We really do. Because you know, we
think you're a pretty level-headed guy and, and you're
academically a bright guy, and you got a lot of common
sense. And that doesn't mean I have to agree with your
religious beliefs but that's --
STEVE: Truly.
JOHN: -- that's not the issue as far as, you
know, the humanitarian end of this thing is concerned.
And, and you're, you're doing what you think is best.
And you're doing a lot of good encouragement in there.
And, and we appreciate it.
Have you had the chance to talk to at all
Floyd Haupman phonetic sp.! or Sandra Harding or --
STEVE: Mr. Haupman --
JOHN: - Yvette Williams or --
STEVE: You know, I actually forgot. But
usually he's around in the daytime. He goes --
_-_.~U: 2s
JOHN: You going to tell me you were busy?
STEVE: Oh, anyway. Usually what happens by
the time you get on --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- he goes to bed pretty early,
because he is about, I think he's like 61 years old.
JOHN: Oh, is that right?
STEVE: Yeah. So the last few times that I
sent someone down or I went down myself to get him --
JOHN: well, you can let him talk to John
during the daytime.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: That's fine.
STEVE: well, that's true. But I, I must
admit I totally forgot about it.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I did .
JOHN: And Yvette and Sandra Harding? Yvette
Williams, Sandra Harding?
STEVE: Let's see now. I don't -- Sandra --
you know what? I don't even know the person.
JOHN: She probably is a British citizen.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Because we had a Denise Johnson call.
STEVE: Denise Johnson.
JOHN: who is a British citizen, and she's
-.-v" 0 29
here in town.
STEVE: Oh, really?
JOHN: And she said that Sandra is her
cousin."
STEVE: Okay. I'll try to --
JOHN: So I presume she's a, you know, a
Brit.
STEVE: Right. Okay. I'll try to find her
then. e
JOHN: And then we had Herman Williams call,
not locally. He's up in Alberta. And his sister is
Yvette Williams.
STEVE: I see. Okay.
JOHN: And I think I saw her on a tape and
may have talked to her before.
STEVE: Yeah, you did see her on a tape. She
was on one -- '
~ JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- of the, the last one I sent out in
fact.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE: Yeah. Her husband is, has a Master
of Divinity degree in theology and --
JOHN: Is that right?
STEVE: Uhhuh .
JOHN: Is he in there with her?
47. 30
STEVE: Yes, he is.
JOHN: Well, shoot. That's good anyhow.
STEVE: In fact I think - pardon?
' JOHN: I mean it's great that they're
together.
STEVE: Yeah, I was actually trying to get
him on the tape even. But so far --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: - he's reclined or declined at this
time I meant to say and --
JOHN: Where's my buddy?
STEVE: Just a moment. Let me, let me try
again.
JOHN: He's, he's reluctant. I can see that.
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: He's, he's kind of reluctant.
STEVE: well, just a minute. Let's see if
he's ready now. Hang on.
JOHN: Laughing.!
[9aP]
STEVE TO DAVID: Are you ready for him?
Where's my buddy? Unidentified voices in background
not discernible.!
[QBP]
_ DAVID: Hello, John?
JOHN: Hey. How you feeling? A little
0 0 3'
better. -
DAVID: Wonderful. I'm wonderful.
JOHN: Well, I know talking to me is just
going to make you feel better.
DAVID: Yeah. '
JOHN£ It did last night, didn't it?
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: God, I couldn't believe. You --
DAVID: Every time I get a chance to chisel
at you, I'm always happy.
JOHN: Laughing.! Well, you saw the two
videos too, huh?
DAVID: Yeah. I was I, I looked at it. I
figured you was that kind of guy, you know?
JOHN: You did?
DAVID: Kind of a nice, well set, you know,
confident, been around kind of person.
~ JOHN: Just a young guy.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: Young guy. Listen. What I wanted to
mention to you, and I was asked to mention it to you,
and I forgot last night. And I didn't, I didn't want
to be in a position to say that I, I didn't discuss it
with you tonight was in our earlier conversations, you
know, you mentioned to me, David did and, and Lord, I
guess half the people I talked to in there have
"'3'!.: 32
mentioned it to me that had ATF notified you in advance
you'd, you'd have welcomed them with open arms at the
front door, right? All they had to do was knock at the
door. '
I DAVID: Oh, that's, that's been --
f JOHN:92 And that's basically --
DAVID: -- the policy all along that --
JOHN: Sure. And what I have mentioned to
you before and I just want to reiterate it to you is
that's what we're doing, you know. since we started
talking to you, the door's opened. And we're welcoming
you with open arms. And we want to make it perfectly,
perfectly clear that we have no intention of coming up
there and, you know, banging down doors. We're just
going to sit back and wait. And we know that it's --
DAVID: Oh, I believe, we --
JOHN: -- not a question of if you're coming
out of there. It's a question of when you're coming
out.
DAVID: we believe this, John.
JOHN: I hope you do. I --
DAVID: Now, now John, now John, remember --
JOHN: I, I hope you really believe that.
You're not just telling me that.
DAVID: Let's, let's -- wait a minute, John.
Now let's just stand back --
".-'l l 33
JOHN: Uhhuh.-
DAVID: -- a little bit. Let's, let's go
back a little bit.
' JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: If I, if I wanted to, you know, if I
had been under any violations as soon as the ATF boys
moved in a month ahead of time next door.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: we could have removed everything out
of here. we could have hightailed it to any part of
this country.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Overseas. That's not my position.
It never has been. It never will be.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Our position is very, is really a
very plain and easy to understand position. '
' JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: whether it be with a religious person
or whether it be with a person that's, you know,
agnostic, all that is required is the ability to listen
and reason. All I've ever done --
JOHN: Well, I think that's what you and I
and Steven and others have been doing since we've been
talking to you, haven't we?
DAVID: Well, yeah. But, but the blockade
02 0 34
from your point --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- from your side is that it started
off too bizarre for anyone to listen with their walls
down. Everyone's been listening from behind the door.
And the media and --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- and it's just like we're hearing,
we're hearing people on the radio claiming to be
associated with us like this Sue girl.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: And there has never, ever been such a
person in our ranks by the name of Sue.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: The only Sue that we've ever known
was Steve Schneider's sister, Sue Schneider. And it's
just like, you know, of course, you know, it's ill,
it's ill favor for, for it to be publicized that my
biological mother has received some $75,000 for rights,
royalty rights for a movie. I --
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: You know, I -- my mother all of my
life has been very materialistic. But you know, that's
kind of a cheap sell-out. But if that's what makes her
haPPY "
JOHN: Hey. You, you and I could both have
0 0 35
our opinions on that, couldn't we?
DAVID: Yeah, but, you know --
JOHN: You know?
DAVID: -- but the thing of it is is that my
opinion counts.
JOHN: Sure, sure.
DAVID: Because of the position we're in --
JOHN: No, I'm - I think you and I probably
both have the same opinion when it comes to that, what
you saw and what you've heard. I --
DAVID: SO --
JOHN: -- I don't argue that with you at all.
DAVID: So, you know --
JOHN: Somebody's looking at something for
money, aren't they?
DAVID: Sad thing. It's the root of all
evil. u
' JOHN: And --
DAVID: And if anybody wants to check my
records and stuff, they can check all the way back to
1978.
JOHN: well, you know, I just wanted to, to
rehash with you what, what we've said from the very
beginning. What happened happened. There's no turning
that around. There's nothing I could do about it.
Believe me, I wish I could, pal. But I can't, can I?
-_-vl. . 35DAVID: we understand thgfrom your position
there --
JOHN: And we do. we completely understand
that. And we've had a good dialogue and hopefully
built somewhat of a rapport between you and all of us
and, and Steve and --
DAVID: well, that's why --
JOHN: --.and et cetera. And I just wanted
to reiterate again that hey, the door is opened. The
medical treatment's opened. And we, we continue to
knock at the door with you. You know, we've knocked on
it for 2 weeks and we'll continue. We, we're not --
DAVID: Without the battering rams, huh?
JOHN: You've got it exactly. And, and
that's what we told you all along, didn't we?
DAVID: Well, that's what we've been telling
you guys all along.
. JOHN: That we, that we would talk and that
we would communicate.
DAVID: John, John --
JOHN: And we're not going to change.
DAVID: -- John, listen to me. A sad thing
happened here last Sunday, 2 weeks ago.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: Understand we were the ones who
called. We were the ones who called for a cease fire.
47 . 37
JOHN: Um-hum.-
DAVID: Understand we were the ones - and
the ATF said that no one was allowed to enter into this
building} That's false.
JOHN: Um-hum. '
Q DAVID: You know, there was, there was a
gentleman that was wounded in the upper, in the upper
level. He was allowed -- they were allowed to enter to
take him out. -
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: You know, we understand that there's
two definite positions of view here. And that's the
ones who were involved here and the ones who were
involved on the outside.
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: You can't, you can't blame the ATF
agents. You know, their buddies to remorse the fact
that some of their men were shot up. You can't, you
can't, you know, deny the fact that there's remorse on
this side that some of our people were shot up.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: You know. But it's kind of like
this. When there's two kids on the playground getting
into a fight, somebody of authority has to step in
between them and sort it out. And that's where we
appreciate your position. l
I I 38
JOHN: Um~hum.-
DAVID: You know. And I've, I've always
taught my people that the, that the prime truth of
religion is education. True education allows the
person to stand on their own two feet, to think and
decide for themselves and move in the direction they
fell and believe they should move. People, people
have, have missed this point.
And you'll find that, that any accusations
made against me is a part of a small, small group that
claims they know me. And they're all associated with
this person, Marc Breault.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: And like I say, we won't get into all
that. Because I know you're, you know, you're, you're
tired of hearing all that. And so am I.
JOHN: Sure. Sure.
- DAVID: But I am very well happy and pleased
that like I told the negotiators there, give us some
time, not for my sake but for the sake of my students
who are now for the first time in their life having to
exercise their right and freedom of decision making and
being responsible for those decisions. And people are
watching, people are saying and people --
_ JOHN: That's true. Because they haven't had
to make a lot of decisions for some time, and it's a
...__0 0 39
difficult thing for them, isn't it?
DAVID: well, no. That's, that's incorrect
too. Again that statement is a statement based upon
the shadowing of your understanding of our true
position.
JOHN: well, they've had a lot of leadership
though.
DAVID: They have -- let me tell you about
human nature. Anyone who comes through the ranks of
our school system.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: Anyone who has come into the point of
life to where they are computer programmers, they're
professional people, they're people who have lived in
the world 20, 30, 40 years, are not easily and quickly
adapted to the thought of the theocracy.
JOHN: But they're all looking for something,
aren't they?
DAVID: No. Most of the people that have
been recruited into the ranks of this source of
information were not looking for anything.
JOHN: Well, I listened to the video where a
couple of women said that they were looking for
something and they found it.
DAVID: well, what happened was they claim --
JOHN: Maybe that was their way of phrasing
?Q' I, l, 40
it but -- -
DAVID: Let me explain again. It's also true
that a lot of individuals have associated themselves to
churches;
JOHN: Um-hum. .
u ' DAVID: And religions. And they had for
quite some time concluded that they were receiving the
run of the mill, rehashed old potatoes of religion.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: But not knowing any other sources of
information, they retained these professions and
retained these faiths for quite some time. when the
subject of the seven seals was introduced, the majority
of all very skeptically entered, entered into these
studies with a clear picture that their ministry, being
offered the responsibility and the privilege to impart
to them the information of the seals, they could not
come up to par with the challenge. They could not do
it.
So therefore the grounds of reason stated
that well, they should give me a hearing of which they
did and of which they were not disappointed. The
subject matter was made quite clear and quite
conclusive, although the material was foreign to their
previous understanding of the Scripture.
JOHN: Um-hum. .
._-_,0 0 4'
DAVID: Although it was the Scripture. What
I'm saying is a lot of people pack a Bible and don't
know what they've got in their hands. Now you know
that, John.
JOHN: Umhum.
' DAVID: I mean that's a fact of the matter.
And just like a lot of doctors out there are practicing
and they really, they really don't know what they're
doing, right? We have a name for them, don't we? We
call them quacks. Right? Okay.
It's just like anything. When you go to a
tennis court, you have two opponents. The people in
the bleachers are watching the game. And they get to
see by the amount of scores marked who is the better of
the two opponents, right?
And that's the way the seven seals are set up
in, in Scripture. You know, all we have ever asked is
for any and all, no matter what nationality, what
profession of faith, to simply show unto us their
knowledge of the prophetic voice from Moses to Malachi.
You know, all, all that reading. They're scholars
who've gone through that a million times. For them to
show us from that source of information what God had
declared to the prophets what this mystery of Jesus
Christ is in the light of the last book of the new
covenant, the seven seals.
47,. l.r 42
JOHN: Um-hum..
DAVID: Now it would be a miracle, John, if
in this world of great knowledge, of computers and
categorization, it would be a miracle for mankind not
to know this basic, simple source of knowledge. And
you know what? "They don't. But I do. Now that's
supposed to mean something for every open mind. It's
supposed to mean a lot of things. Because it is a
judgment for the gentiles..
Just as the gospel closed up to the Jews
2,000 years ago, so likewise in the same source of
information there's only one miracle. And that's the
miracle that man in all of his knowledge will have hid
from him the source of truth which has been there all
along. Like a diamond, like a diamond sitting
underneath your nose. You don't know where it's at.
It's right there in front of you. You never know where
it's at-until somebody shows it to you.
JOHN: You know, I've never, never argued
that with you. Nor has, you know, Max or, or Henry or,
or John-2 or Jim or any of them, you know.
DAVID: well, it's just a foreign thing to
you.
JOHN: And we respect, we respect your
religious beliefs. And I think you believe that I'm
telling you the truth when I tell you that. I respect
__q. 43every man's religious bel.ief. And tQaat's not what it's
all about now. What it's about now is you've told me
that you're ready to come out of there now, although
you're waiting for the word. And I, I accept that.
And I haven't told you that I haven't accepted it, have
'1? ' '
DAVID: Nope. Only, only --
JOHN: No.. And I'm not going to.
DAVID: -- only by expression.
JOHN: I'm -- and you know, I'm not going to
tell you that. Because as difficult as it may be for
me personally in my own religious beliefs to accept it,
I believe you do, and the people in there do and that's
fine. That's fine. And I know when you're ready to
come out, when you receive the word and you're ready to
lead those people out of there, it's going to happen.
DAVID: Why do I accept it?
- JOHN: Because it's your belief.
DAVID: No. why is it my belief?
JOHN: Why is it?
DAVID: Yeah. Why is it my belief?
JOHN: Because of, of your readings and the
fact that you told me that longer than 33 years ago
when you were here before, right, you were taught that
by the Father, weren't you? Isn't that what you said?
DAVID: 1959 is when these events took place.
;
You kg: --
JOHN:
telling me that
DAVID
JOHN:
you believe it,
DAVID , 44
And I believe what you're, what you're
well --
-- that you totally accept this and
and I'm not going to try and refute it.
You really can't believe such a
statement as that and still be considered a moral human
being. I mean,
JOHN:you know -é
Why?
DAVID: - it kind of stretches the, it kind
of stretches the normality of humanity. But what you
can believe, what is given for you to believe, is the
basic down to earth reality that when the seals are
opened, the source of information in the prophetic
writings are to make clear what the seals contain in
the Book of Revelation. And that's just a, that's
just -4
JOHN:Well, I hope they're opened out here
so a lot of people will be able to totally understand
what you're trying to say and that you just don't keep
this between you and 100 other people on the inside
there.
DAVID: Oh, I have -- there's a lot more --
- JOHN:
don't you?And I think you believe that too,
._-,' U v 4 5
DAVID: There's, there's thousands and
thousands that this has been shared with.
JOHN: Yeah, but you got a lot of people out
here from what you've seen in the news and what you've
heard on the radio that are basically spreading false
beliefs too, aren't they? And saying that they were
with you in there --
DAVID: But that doesn't hurt anything
though, John.
JOHN: I'm sorry, what?
DAVID: It doesn't hurt anything.
JOHN: well, it upsets you. You just said
hey --
DAVID: No, no, no, I --
JOHN: -- this girl Sue was never in here
and - _
DAVID: I am just making plain, I'm just
making a clarification on things that maybe you might
be able to just test this girl. You might be able to
say now wait a minute. You know, this girl claims to
know so much. She claims to have been one of the wives
of mine. I mean whoa. I'm just telling you false, not
true.
JOHN: And, and you basically said you don't
know here from anyone.
DAVID: well, definitely she's categorized
,.__..0 0 :6
with Peter Pan and Santa Claus. That's for sure.
JOHN: You know, and you and I don't have a
beef there, do we?
DAVID: No, we don't.
JOHN: Not at all. Are you feeling better
today? Or are you feeling worse?
DAVID: well, to be honest, like I say it's,
it's kind of a mixture between weakness and --
JOHN: You got a bedsore problem too, huh?
DAVID: Pain and like I say I try to exercise
my legs, my left leg primarily. It could be a
indiscernible! from the time my back was broken.
JOHN: well, Steve said that you're probably
having a little bedsore problem too, huh?
DAVID: well, yeah. A little sciatic nerve
trouble there.
JOHN: You, you haven't been able to get up
at all and, and move around a little bit today?
DAVID: A little bit. No, not, not up, not
straight up. But ~-
JOHN: Because what do you think, you got up
too soon?
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: Huh?
. DAVID: Yeah. I'm, I'm a driver.
JOHN: Well.
q 0 4'
DAVID: Yeah, in the beginning I, like I
said, you know, everybody was worked up. And, and I'm
one of these kind of guys that used to come in after
the 600 yard and pull all my power at the last few
yards, you know.
' ' JOHN:' You don't believe in moderation, huh?
DAVID: well, now let me explain to you
again. Am I not being moderate?
JOHN: I mean physical moderation.
DAVID: Well, have I not been physically
moderate?
JOHN: Well, I don't know. You may have
tried to push it too hard too soon, huh?
DAVID: Well, yeah. It was on me to come out
and we were --
JOHN: And that's why you were getting up.
You know we want, we want what's best for you. We want
what's best for everyone and that's to --
DAVID: Oh, things, things are
indiscernible! John
JOHN: -- to resolve it, resolve this thing
in a nice, peaceful manner. And that's why we've been
knocking on the door for 2 weeks saying we're out here.
The medical assistant's out here. Everything. I wish
you could have talked to the doctor tonight and, and
maybe that would have given you a little more, you
4-.3, .O I '8
know, consolation as to what's going on with your
wounds too because --
DAVID: well, I'm, I'm familiar with my
wounds. And I'm familiar --
JOHN: You think so?
DAVID: -- with what's taking place
biologically with me.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: It's, it's a process that the body
goes through, because it has to readjust. I mean you
know, anything, any form of material that goes through
the body like it went through mine is going to cause
after reactions, you know.
JOHN: Well, we're not just talking, you
know, traumatic reactions. we're talking infection.
DAVID: Oh, sure.
JOHN: And, and that can go --
' DAVID: No infection --
JOHN: -- from bad to worse.
DAVID: It's no infection. I allowed the
wound to bleed thoroughly.
JOHN: Well, it sounds like Judy's got an
infection, though --
DAVID: I haven't seen her --
- JOHN: -- and a broken bone in, in her
finger.
4?,I! |, 49
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: And the doctor talked to her tonight
and, and I think because we, we let him see the video
so that he knew exactly what he was talking about.
DAVID: Right. -
' ' JOHN:' And I, I think they had a pretty good
chat. And she's, she's satisfied that, you know, a few
more days won't make a lot of difference. _And I hope
she's right. I really hope she's right. Because --
DAVID: Like I say --
JOHN: - I don't want to see any, any
problems there either.
DAVID: John, just remember don't try to
converse with me when it comes to someone else's
decisions.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: Okay, John? Let me - .
- JOHN: -- all I'm telling you is that the
doctor --
DAVID: -- let me, let me explain. Now
listen, hold it, wait a minute.
JOHN: - the doctor talked to her.
DAVID: Okay. Now but I also know what
you're saying on the opposite side of what you're
saying. Now remember they're individuals in here.
JOHN: And they're going --
oi 0 so
DAVID: But I have --
JOHN: -- to make their own decisions, right?
DAVID: Exactly. Now what I've stated
earlier, whether you believe it or not, has worked.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: I did not coax these people. I did
not rehearse these people. These people must under God
make decisions on their own. And that's the way it's
going to be. You know, you're, you're dealing with me.
I've gotten myself away from the group.
JOHN: why do you think Kathy and, and Oliver
wanted to come out or decided -- I won't say wanted to
come out. Why do you think they decided to come out?
DAVID: What did Kathy tell you?
JOHN: I didn't talk to Kathy. I haven't --
DAVID: well, what has she, what has she --
JOHN: - I haven't talked to her --
' DAVID: -- what did she say on the video?
JOHN: I wish I could tell you, but I haven't
seen the video either. All I know is a video was made
and, and was sent in. But I didn't see the video.
DAVID: You see, the individuals --
JOHN: She must have told you something
before she left, or Oliver must have told you something
before_he left.
DAVID: well, I explained -- like I said, I
0' Q 5'
explained to everybody here, and it's been going around
by Steve or whoever that we've discussed with that this
is a position to where my faith which is my
communications, what I'm required to do is something I
do alone. The people who believe in the word of God
are to do just that.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: They're to know what they believe and
believe what they know. The world is not some
fiendish, demonic devil that's out to get everybody
that is in opposition to its belief. The world doesn't
really know what it believes. The world doesn't really
have a thorough view of what has been believed by the
prophetic voice. They are ignorant. The gospel is
based upon the forgiveness based upon man's ignorance.
Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.
So those who are blessed with the knowledge
of the truth are only perfected by the truth when the
trials of their faith confront that truth. And there
is no reason to be scared of, of a system, of a world
that's ignorant.
It's like 2,000 years ago. Delivering of the
body of Christ over to the judiciary system. In those
days, people did not have to answer to such a large,
broad spectrum of individuals. It was more of a
hierarchy thing. So the pharisees, you know, beat the
52
I templg They beat Christ.
Pilate would have let him go, because he
wasn't involved in spiritual things to do with Judaism.
He saw the injustice of those who had been shown up by
Christ's teaching, by his manifestations, and he knew
it was an animosity thing. He knew that it was a
jealousy thing. And he would have let Christ go, but
the Jews had a political vote. And so they clearly
told Pilate to let him go. He was no friend of
Caesar's and, of course, he would not be, you know,
allowed back into office again.
And besides, that was the whole Judean
territory there. So you know, that's kind of like
trying to get the black vote and telling the blacks
that, you know, hey, you're not going to do nothing for
them anymore.
JOHN: That's a long way from where we are
today, though, isn't it?
DAVID: well, today's system as we say God in
the latter days has allowed nations to mount up and to
have political power through communication, through
modernization above and beyond any empire ever known
since the beginning of time. You know, today it's
capable and possible, and the workings of it is to have
an inner world connection between communication and
power and authority.
0' 0 53
It could, itcould work in a good way. The
nation of America could be able to relieve people in
desert territories. They could be able to relieve
people in, in highly human territories. You know,
it's, it could be a good system. But it, it begins
with individuals and their hearts. And if they be
ignorant of God and God's purposes, it could become a
very bad system.
JOHN: Well, you got to believe that one of
the best systems is the one we have here. We're not in
Somalia. we're not in
the other countries of
fortunate what we have
DAVID: LikeCroatia. We're not in a lot of
the world. And we're pretty
here, don't we?
I said before, like I told you,
God has blessed this nation.
JOHN: Um-hum
DAVID: And for this nation to receive
continual blessings --
JOHN: Well, I hope he's blessed you and me
and Steven and all of us and will continue to the way
we've been conducting this dialogue for the past 2
weeks. Because I think we've accomplished something,
don't you?
DAVID: well, it's in the makings.
- JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: It'S in the makings.
_.._0 u 54
ago?JOHN: well, you don't think --
DAVID: We, we --
JOHN: -- we've come a long way since 2 weeks
DAVID: well, again remember, remember, John,
that you're just beginning to --
End of tape 120.!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #121
3/12/93 - 3/13/93
10:46 P.M. 08:36 A.M.
I I 2
Tape 121! -
DAVID: -- just beginning to, to realize that
what I --
JOHN: Come a long way though, huh?
DAVID: -- that what I've stated to you, you
know, is meeting its fruition. That's all you're
beginning to realize. You know, it's not been by your
negotiations or anybody else's negotiations. It's been
simply by us appeasing you and you appeasing us and the
time developing so where people in here can sit and
think and make their decisions.
JOHN: But there's been a lot of listening
going on, hasn't there? Listening by us. Listening by
you. "
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: And the bottom line is it's
communication. And willing to talk and willing to
listen. And, and that's what's going to make it work.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: It is.
DAVID: well, like we said before --
JOHN: Hey, I'm a peace loving man. You're a
peace loving man. _
DAVID: SO am I. SO am I.
JOHN: I know. I know.
DAVID: But like the Psalm says, when I amG-kw
I C 3
for peace, they are for-war. -
JOHN: I know that.
DAVID: I mean you know. I wish you all had
come and dealt with this instead of the ATF because --
JOHN: Hey, we can't turn things around, can
we?
DAVID: I know we can't.
JOHN: Listen. I want you to get some rest.
And I want you to take care of yourself. And you got
to start moving around a little bit and not be getting
those bedsores too, huh?
DAVID: I've gotten more rest in the last
week than I have in the last 8 years.
JOHN: Not physical rest maybe.
DAVID: No, I mean -- well, I mean it's hard
to rest. I have to --
JOHN: Sure it is. Sure it is.
DAVID: - be -- but I'm saying that please
keep in mind --
JOHN: People knocking on the door at every
hour asking you what to do here and what to do there.
DAVID: Oh, no. It's -- the door's been
shut. Steve's been very --
- JOHN: well, they're knocking on Steve's door
then, huh?
DAVID: Yeah. He's - Steve's handled things
I O 4
really good. -
JOHN: He has. He has. He's been a prince
to deal with. And he's, he's a good right hand for you
to have there too._ He really is. He's -- __
DAVID: Well, he's, he's proved himself since
the beginning.
JOHN: He's been a commendable asset to
you --
DAVID: He was a --
JOHN: -- and he, and he has to us.
DAVID: He was like you guys in the
beginning. Oh, he was a real hardhead.
_ JOHN: Hey.
DAVID: He thought he knew it all.
JOHN: There's a lot of those around here,
aren't there?
DAVID: The world's full of them, John.
JOHN: But we appreciate what you're doing
and what he's doing. we really do. And listen. I
want you to get some rest tonight. And, and we gave
him a good opportunity to get some rest last night.
Because we shut things down early. But he said that he
had people knocking on his door all night, you know,
one question, another question. -
And, and one thing that I guess concerned him
was somebody said they saw some movement up someplace
O I I 5
and, and it woke them up. And he called us. And we
found out what it was. There were some dogs running
around wherever the area that Airstream trailer is.
Because we are not playing any games like that. We're
not doing. I'm telling you not, we're not doing --
DAVID: I didn't believe, I didn't believe
that you would do something like that.
JOHN: We won't. We won't. We won't. You
know? Did you --
DAVID: Because you all know, you all know by
now we just don't lay down and die for anybody.
JOHN: But what would it, what fruitful
purpose would something like that serve?
DAVID: Well -- . '
JOHN: would it be productive? No. Not at
all.
DAVID: Depends on what your product was
trying to derive, you know?
JOHN: Yeah, but you know what we're trying
to do, don't you?
DAVID: I hope so.
JOHN: Listen. I appreciate you talking to
me tonight. I really do. You don't know how much I
do. '
DAVID: I like you, John. _. ~
JOHN: And can I talk to Steve again and, andn-'2
discuss a couple of things about tomorrow morning with
him?
DAVID
though.
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
Steven then.
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
[989]
STEVE
JOHN:
tonight. And I6
Sure. You never got your Bible study
Yeah, I sure did. I just got one --
You pulled one on me, didn't you?
In a half hour I got one. No.
All right. Well, here's, here's
Thank you. Thank you for talking --
Okay.
-- to me tonight.
I'll let you get away this time.
Okay. .
Okay. Bye.
Bye.
Steve?
John.
Hey. We got a short Bible study in
told him how much I appreciated,
appreciated what you're doing. And I really do.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: I don't know if you want to go try and
find anybody to talk to me this evening or you want to
get some rest or whatever you want to do. But I'm
I I 1
here. If you want to talk to me --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- give me a call. I'm, I'm - I will
probably be able to give you a call back when I'm sure
those magazines are up there. If you want to look at
them this evening, I'll give you a call.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Or at least I'll let you know.
STEVE: What kind of time do you think that's
going to be? Otherwise indiscernible!.
JOHN: I don't know. You going to try and
hit the hay now?
_ STEVE: Yeah, well, I could wait a little bit
longer if you thought -- '
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: - there was a possibility if it
wouldn't be just too much longer yet.
JOHN: Hey. why don't you hit the hay. And
somebody will answer the phone, huh?
STEVE: It's right by me. No one else is
really that close.
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: Let's see here. It's already 5:11.
JOHN: You want to sack out? '
STEVE: I could hang around for another hour
if you think those are going to be -._.-
go ahead.
But - or
it?
it then?I 8
JOHN: Well, if that's what you care to do,
You know, watch some TV, do something.
say a good prayer pal, you know?
STEVE: Okay. p
JOHN: That will never hurt any of us, will
STEVE: Yeah. Well, do you think you can get
Or what do you think?
JOHN: I'm going to try.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: I'm going to try.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: If there's a problem, I'll call you as
quickly as I can so you can, you can get as much rest
as you can. Okay? David's voice in background not
discernible.!
What now?STEVE: Just a minute. He was talking to me.
DAVID: If they have humane things that they
can do for them?
someplaceSTEVE: Like what?
DAVID: Tell him, tell him our ducks need --
STEVE: He's mentioning --
JOHN: What?
DAVID: If they could call up HEB or
like that? Will they deal with HEB?
I I 9
STEVE: Okay. - -
DAVID: Tell them to go down there and pick
up the, the donut, you know, the indiscernible! they
need to feed our ducks. Go down there and they're
really - ~
STEVE: We've got a lot of ducks. Apparently
today when --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: - Greg was coming back, the ducks
followed him when they spotted him, because they're
used to having him or somebody feed them.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
V STEVE: And we had something going with HEB
and some of these kind of supermarkets where they gave
us oh, things for like livestock, ducks, chickens --
JOHN: Uh-huh .
STEVE: -- all that sort of thing.
JOHN: You need some, you need some feed? Is
that what you're saying?
STEVE: well, just, well -- what are you
saying? You need some feed or what?
DAVID: Indiscernible! feed a little bread
and stuff --
STEVE: Old bread or anything that is - see,
the supermarkets used to -- ~
JOHN: Okay.._.>-
D 10
STEVE: -- used to give us old bread and
things like that. And then we'd --
JOHN: You don't have anything around there
huh?
DAVID
STEVE
DAVID:
STEVE
friends.Be kind to
He says be
They might
- he says
Remember that old --your web-footed friends.
kind to --
be someone's mother.
be kind to your web-footed
They might be someone's mother. Laughing.!
JOHN: I think I've heard that before.
STEVE: -- remember the old song? You never
heard that?
JOHN: I've heard that: How many web-footed
friends do you think I have down in the Bayou?
STEVE: Yeah, I can imagine.
JOHN: Plenty of them.
STEVE: That's right. He's from the Bayou.
JOHN: Huh? How easy you forget. David's
and Steve's voices in the background not discernible.!
Listen, we're still on for --
DAVID: That's great. I love it down there.
STEVE: Yeah, he likes it down there. He
said that's great. He likes it down there.
JOHN: Great is right. And I expect to get
back there soon1-}
I ll
David's v
Rita and B
right.
soon as I
stuff for
magazinesSTEVE: You do. He said --
JOHN: The --
STEVE: -- he expects to get back there soon.
oice in background not discernible.! _;
JOHN: we're, we're still on ;
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: -- we're -- hey, we're still on for
rad and Kevin, huh?
STEVE: we're working - that's exactly
JOHN: Okay. Listen, let me call you back as
hear something, huh?
STEVE: Okay. Real good.
JOHN: And, and I'm not forgetting about the
the ducks.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: So I'll wait to hear about the
and --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Okay, great.
JOHN: Thank you.
STEVE: Talk to you in a bit.
JOHN: Byebye.
***
JOHN: Hello.
.92
what?STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
give you a call
minutes.
the phone
for it.
you back.STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
right
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:LI 12
Hellof John?
Yeah.
So what's happening?
I don't know. What's happening?
Are the generals getting antsy or
why? What's going on?
No electricity.
when did it go off?
Just about 1 minute ago.
I don't know. I can check and, and
All right.
Okay?
Yeah.
Let me call you back in a couple
I'll have to be - if I don't answer
away, I'll be reaching around feeling
Laughing.!
Okay?
Okay. Let me, let me check and call
Okay, bye.
All right.
I I 13
.**k
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Hey, Steve.
STEVE: Yeah, John.i-._'-»
JOHN: Well, I think you read it pretty
clearly.
STEVE: Oh, yeah?
JOHN: Yeah. A couple of us went in and
talked. And you know, they're the boss. They're the
bosses. And we tell them look, let's talk. Let's you
know, do what we've been doing. And we've been, we've
been making some mileage. So I guess they're going to
let you go to sleep early, huh?
STEVE: Okay. _
JOHN: Hey. What can I tell you, my friend?
STEVE: And who are these bosses? What are
their names?
JOHN: Well, they're just the command people.
STEVE: who are we dealing with?
JOHN: Huh?
STEVE: who are we dealing with?
JOHN: People that have been around longer
than I have I guess.
STEVE: Just a minute.
[9aP] :
STEVE: He's saying well, I guess that means
U D 1.
they're the bosses. Indiscernible! really nice sleep
tonight. Indiscernible! what we're going to do
tomorrow. David's voice in background not
discernible.! -
STEVE: John?
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: What do they want?
JOHN: Well, I think they were -- the vibes
that we're getting is they were disappointed that more
people didn't come out. It's been taking a long time.
Nothing happened for 5 or 6 days. And, and you and I
have kicked it around. We know what's going on. And
they -- a lack of activity I guess. You know, tangible
activity. And that seems to be F-
STEVE: Should I tell them --
JOHN: - what they're looking for.
STEVE: Should I tell you my thoughts
personally on it?
JOHN: Sure. Sure.
STEVE: You know, the first thing wants to
do, a person wants to do is react to the other extreme,
you know, right away. Especially after the hard
attempts, the working with these individuals all these
days and ~ ' '
JOHN: Sure. .
STEVE: - and picking this wheel andG-'-
¬ 15
momentum up. And it's like, it's like getting axed in
the back or something.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: It's like what we ought to do now is
maybe start working to the other degree, I guess
that's our --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- payoff for trying to encourage
people to walk out in the first place. Is that it? Is
that what they're trying to tell us?
JOHN: Hey. what can I tell you? We've,
we've been communicating. We'll continue to
communicate.
STEVE: By their psychologies? Maybe what
they want is what the ATF apparently came here to do in
the first place?
JOHN: What?
STEVE: You've heard from us right from the
beginning how we were going to get together, have our
daily, our worship service.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Men, women and children, even though
we had suspected something could happen, we really
never dreamed it was possible in this country would- -
happen that simply --
JOHN: Uh-huh. Yeah.
"! !" 16
STEVE: -- hideously. when I saw the
witnesses and the accounts of those people that saw
those choppers come over and go --
JOHN: Um-hum. _
STEVE: -- for David's room and riddle it
full of bullets --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- I didn't have any second thoughts
about what they had come to do or when there was nobody
coming to the door and had - when he poked his head
out the door, looked right at them, looked right at
them. And there was four witnesses right there. Perry
Jones died.
JOHN: Um-hum. .
STEVE: He died. He stood there right next
to him and he never got, had a chance. He got hit in
the hand first. He started walking down the corridor.
A bullet went right through three walls and nailed him
and down he went. And that was it for him.
JOHN: Well, we know a lot of people died
that day, didn't they?
STEVE: But who chose to do it? who came
with that intention in the first place?
JOHN: Hey, Steve --
STEVE: And these, and these --
JOHN: -- neither you nor I can change what
9 O 17
happened on the 28th, can we?
STEVE: No, but -no, and I'm going to keep
on getting back to -- no, you and I can't. But God
sure can and -- .
JOHN: well, that's true.
STEVE: - and I believe he's going to be
doing some sorting -- none of these, these arrogant,
proud men, of course, they don't buy it. They don't
believe it. I'll tell you one thing. I do. I'm,
I'm -- actually I fear God. I'm terrified of what God
can do. I really - I'm not kidding you. I'm serious.
JOHN: Well, anybody that's not is a fool,
aren't they?
STEVE: So just a minute.
JOHN: You know?
STEVE: Just a minute.
[9aP]
STEVE: Dave, as far as they're concerned
when indiscernible! come out the lights come on. That
was the reason. Why did they do it? That's the
reason. Should we give up talking? I, I can tell
right now indiscernible! on the wall. We don't need
to talk to them anymore.
[9aP]
STEVE: John?
JOHN: Yeah. Uh-huh.>-'>
' ' ' 1 s
STEVE: You know what actually appears to me
with these commanders?
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: I don't really think they want to
communicate, you know that? I'm, I'm thinking about
maybe pulling the cords from the wall and not even
bothering anymore.
JOHN: Well, what -- that's not going to
accomplish anything, is it?
STEVE: That -- no, no. I'll be honest with
you. I'll pull the cords from the wall, and then
we'll, we'll see what happens from there.
JOHN: If that's what you want to do, that's
your decision. I think --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: - I think it's not the right
decision.
STEVE: I'm going to put the phone down, and
we'll just see what happens.
JOHN: Hey --
STEVE: You can do what, you can, you can do
whatever you need to do. You've cut the electricity.
You I mean after all this attempt, all the trying, the
words I heard out of the other John's mouth. - -
- JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: How it began this, the last 2 or 3
9 9 1.
days, how we worked and tried and worked. And this is
the kind of payoff. I am -- I'm not even joking you.
I don't know if David came across clear to you.
JOHN: Do, do - I don't think you're joking.
STEVE: I don't know if he came across clear
to you. But these people fear God first.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: That is the big deal. That's the
thing.
JOHN: Have I --
STEVE: They're not, they're not --
JOHN: -- have I ever argued that?
~ STEVE: I guess --
JOHN: No, I don't. .
STEVE: - I'll tell you something. Is
really at this moment, I better get off the phone.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: Because I'm, I'm not in a good frame
of mind. And I don't want to be --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- saying a lot of things, so I'm not
so sure I'll be talking to you in the morning either.
Because I'm going to --
JOHN: Hey, just --
STEVE: -- I'm going to pull the --
JOHN: - take a step back, huh?
", "! 20
STEVE: I'm going to -- unidentified male
voice in background not discernible! - okay. Just a
minute. David's going to talk with you.
You can tell him I'm going to pull the plug,
and I'll talk to you after a few days. l
DAVID: John?
JOHN: Yes.
DAVID: You know what this means, don't you?
JOHN: What?
DAVID: what, what -- well, what do you, what
do you think it means?
JOHN: I can tell you what it means. That
all I can tell you what, what I've been told it means
is some people are just frustrated over a lack of
activity, a lack of people coming out of there. And
you know that we've been communicating, and I don't
mean you and me have been communicating. But a lot of
people have been communicating on both sides, and
we're, we understand that these things take time.
And people out here are looking for tangible
things. Things they can put their hands on. And I'm
sure they expected that three or four people were going
to come out today, and nothing has happened in the last
5 or 6 days, and no one has come out. And, and that's
their attitude. And what else can I tell you? I'm
trying to be as candid with you as I can.>_',-
0 9 ..
[9aP]
DAVID: So like I was telling you before,
when the ATF first came out, they came out for blood,
didn't they? ' _
JOHN: I can't tell you that.
DAVID: That's what they wanted.
JOHN: I wasn't here, was I?
DAVID: Well, we were.
JOHN: I know. But you and I and all the
others for the last 2 weeks have been trying to sit
down and reason and talk and communicate. And we'll
continue to do that, you know.
DAVID: what do you think this is going to
mean to the guys that were going to come out?
JOHN: Well, you know, I - the only thing I
could tell you is, is I'm not a mind reader. And, and
I don't claim to be. But we're still knocking on your
door, pal. We are still knocking on the door and, and
as I said people look for more tangible signs. And you
could look -- '
DAVID: You mean, you mean the --
JOHN: - you could look at the media. You
know, you watch the press conferences I guess and, and
hear what's going on in the media. And they say what's
happening? what's happening? what's happening? And
they get the same story for the last 5 or 6 days from,
d 0 22
from the, the people that are talking to the media.
You know, from the law enforcement people talking to
the media.
Now we've been communicating. And
communication is good. And communication is great.
And, and that's what it's all about.
DAVID: And now they, and now they want to
bring that all to a stop.
JOHN: No, they want to see some tangible
results. You know, I imagine --
DAVID: Hey, hey, hey.
JOHN: What?
_ DAVID: Tangible results was did you get
Oliver today? Did he come out to you?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: That's not tangible.
JOHN: Sure it is. And, and so is Kathy,
isn't it?
DAVID: And so, and so now you want to push,
right? This is what's going on. The generals out here
want to push. '
JOHN: Basically what they were looking at is
what happened for 5 days? What happened for 6 days?
DAVID: And so they really don't care about,
the people in here, do they?
JOHN: Sure they do.>_'-»
I O 23
DAVID: N0 they -- '
JOHN: Sure they do.
DAVID: -- do not, John.
JOHN: We all do. _
DAVID: They care about what they want to do.
JOHN: Coughing.! Excuse me. Well, what --
hey. It may have made a big difference if, if Brad and
Kevin came out today.
DAVID: we are not going to work off of
merits of good little rewards. We're not going to work
that way. Our merits are based upon as I said before
the people here have decisions to make.
- JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: And there are those who are making
those decisions.
JOHN: Hey, they'll make the decisions when
they --
DAVID: And --
JOHN: - want to make them. I know that.
DAVID: And the thing of it is is what we're
now seeing is we're seeing that really when it comes
down to it those decisions have been made. And I
believe -- Steve, what is the reason why the other two
guys didn't go out today? Steve's voice in background
not discernible.! Oliver was supposed to have called
back, right? Steve's voice in background noti-
I I, 24
discernible.! - -
JOHN: well, I don't know that he was
supposed to. I think John said that he was going to
try and see if he could make those arrangements. Now
Oliver to the best of my knowledge is, is over at the
Sheriff's office tonight. Because he came out too late
to go before the magistrate for an initial appearance
and go before probation for an initial appearance. So
we're --
DAVID: well, did you tell that to Steve?
JOHN: I'm sorry.
DAVID: Did you explain that to Steve?
_ JOHN: Well, I didn't explain all the nuts
and bolts to him. But he came out pretty late. And we
sure don't control the way federal judges operate, you
know. They have their schedules. They have their
agendas.
And, and so what we're going to try and do
I'm sure is make some, make some arrangements for
somebody to do some communicating in the morning. But
communication works. You know it works. I know it
works.
DAVID: well, we're definitely being
communicated with, aren't we? Click, off goes the ' ~
lights. ,
JOHN: Hey. Somebody expected to see
O O 25
something happen. It didn't happen.
DAVID: And we're expecting to see --
JOHN: It's not going to stop us from
communicating with you _
DAVID: -- we are expecting to see
something --
JOHN: - and it's not going to stop us from
communicating with the people --
DAVID: We are --
JOHN: -- that made that decision.
DAVID: we are expecting to see something
happen too. And what we've seen we don't like.
. JOHN: What? You tell me what you don't like
that you've seen in the last 4 or 5 days.
DAVID: We do not like our lights being
turned on and off. It's not rational. It doesn't, it
doesn't mean anything but fighting. That's all it
means.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: It's very aggressive.
JOHN: In the last 2 weeks since we've been
talking, we've been communicating, haven't we? And
it's been positive, hasn't it?
DAVID: Until tonight.
JOHN: No. It's been positive.
DAVID: No, this is not positive what's
~~' ' 26
taking place right now. '
JOHN: Well, well, people --
DAVID: It is not positive at all.
JOHN: Hey, these people could have said the
same thing 5 days ago, couldn't they? Or 6 days ago
when Heather came out, and nothing happened for 6 days.
They --
DAVID: I told you --
JOHN: -- they could have done something the
next day and they didn't.
DAVID: -- to give the people --
JOHN: And they waited for a sign from you.
And they waited for this sign for 6 nights. And they
expected four people to come out of there today.
DAVID: Hey.
JOHN: And two came out.
DAVID: Yes, two --
JOHN: All I can tell you is that Henry and,
and Max and myself and all the people you've been
talking to are going to continue to talk to you, and
we're going to continue to talk to the people to turn
the power off.
DAVID: To turn it on.
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID: Well, get on the phone-with them.
And keep talking --
Q Q 21
JOHN: Hey. . -
DAVID: - and explain it about our good
rapport, one to another. And tell them that they're
making matters a lot worse.
JOHN: You know we will, don't you?
DAVID: I hope so.
JOHN: Okay? We'll be in touch.
DAVID: Because like I say, you know, these
pushy guys, these, these Clint Eastwoods or whatever
they are, whoever they think they are, you know,
they're saying one thing. They're doing another. You
know, people are watching and seeing just exactly how
they will be dealt with. Now this is a stab in the
back. And you have to admit, John, it's a stab in the
back. You know, it's like all right --
JOHN: We'll keep communicating with them.
And we'll keep communicating with you. And we're going
to try and, try and do something productive.
DAVID: Well, talk with them. And we'll sit
here and, you know, we'll use our power source until we
see electricity come back on.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: Thanks, John.
JOHN: I'll be back in touch with you.
DAVID: Okay, bye.
***
U C 2.
Phone ringing.!
JOHN: Find that damn thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Pick it up.
JOHN: Stumble around. Stumble around.
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Steve.
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN: This is John. Listen, I just wanted
to say something to you before I'm fixing to leave out
of here, and you can go back to sleep for a while. But
I just kind of regret what happened last night, and I
wanted you to understand that. That we didn't want it
to happen. And we tried to see that it didn't happen.
But we were basically told two people a week will take
a year. It's not acceptable. And we were, we were
talking up a rope if you understand what I mean.
So just talk to John today. Communicate with
him and, and hopefully things will turn out for the
better, and I'll be back early evening and --
STEVE: well, you know --
JOHN: I just hope you understand what I'm
saying to you that --
STEVE: Yeah, well, I understand.
JOHN: - I'm very sincere about it that --
STEVE: Before you left I must admit I was
really shocked. Because all that I've tried to do, all
the work --
JOHN: I know.
STEVE: -- it's like
It really was -- _
JOHN: Listen, we --
much we appreciate what you're
STEVE: when -- it's
all over now.
JOHN: Well --
STEVE:
back with all - I really have{I} 29
it was totally undone.
I can't tell you how
doing.
like, it's like starting
Honestly, I'm going to have to go
heard that, you know,
that, that the ones that were planning on leaving at 9
or 9:30 whenever it was --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE:
And I don't know. I --
JOHN: Well, listen.-- I guess they're not going now.
, huh? Try and work
with John today, and things will work out. You know
they'll work out. I know they'll work out. You know,
as long as we keep talking, you know, good minds will
work. Okay?
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: Okay. Get back, get back and get some
sleep and -- ~
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- just relaxQ-
U Q 3.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
morning?
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
- DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
did we interrupt
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
hour.
and so forth.See you later. '
Okay.
Goodbye.
. * * * __
Hello?
Steve?
Yes.
This is Dick. How are you this
No. All right, I guess.
Well good, good. Did --
Yourself, Dick?
Pardon?
How have you been.
Just fine. Just fine. Have you --
anything?
What time do we have?
Oh, about 8:15, 8:16.
Yeah. Right now it's the worship
And everybody usually meditates, reads, studies
DICK: Hey, did I, I woke you up, maybe?
STEVE: I was just laying back here --
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE:
DICK:-- here just contemplating.
Yeah. What, you know, what's going
O I .1
on? Is everybody up or just everybody kind of getting
up now this time?
STEVE: It's -- no, it's, it's as usual, you
know. There's always someone up through the day and
night. And it's activities as usual. -
DICK: Uh-huh. How's David? Have you seen
him this morning?
STEVE: I haven't seen him since I walked out
of the room when the electricity went off.
DICK: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. So that was
last night?
STEVE: Yeah, it was about -- it was 11:15.
I stayed there waiting for the return. John Cox told
us he was going to call us back and it never happened.
So finally I just turned in.
DICK: Yeah. Uhhuh. Okay. I was just
wondering, you know, where, where can we go today? Can
we continue our rapport, our relationship here --
STEVE: I - it --
DICK: -- and just keep moving along?
STEVE: In honesty, it doesn't look too good.
DICK: Uh~huh. Well --
STEVE: I mean even David when I was sitting
there for 3 days I worked hard, I really did, morning,
noon and night. I'd turn in, I'd turn in --
DICK: Well, yeah. '-»-
O O 32
STEVE: -- I'd turn in so tired and worn out
from talking to people and talking and talking. And
finally it was getting to the place where it looked
like even today I knew for sure there was going to be
three for positive. In fact, they were talking about
going yesterday. But then that problem with the
telephone.
At the last minute they says I'll just - one
says I'll just wait until the morning. And, and I
talked to him a little bit further. And I could tell
I, I would leave him be, and he would definitely come
out anyway.
. DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: And then - and I talked to John
about that. It seemed to be fine. There didn't seem
to be any major problems. Anyway, you know, in the
first place I was surprised anybody would be going, any
adults. So I thought that was a real plus. And it
looked like it was really, there was getting to be some
momentum. And then --
DICK: Exactly. Exactly.
STEVE: And when I got off the phone with
him, I thought everything was fine. John got on the
phone, Cox, and all of a sudden he started talking -
about the commanders. And, and I what is -- and all of
a total different spirit, total different attitude. It
. ' 3 3
was, it was quite shocking to say, to tell you the
truth.
And I told him I was tired. I said instead
of you telling me those kind of things, why don't you
just take it. And you don't, don't tell me just act
like things are going fine, and I'll just continue on
and, but then I finally got the phone over to David.
Then afterwards, I'm in there myself talking with John.
And that's about 11:15 the electricity went off.
DICK: Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, I, I was
kind of here yesterday involved in, in - I thought we
had some really dynamic momentum rolling. And I know
you were really, you know, really putting forth some
great effort trying to get things moving along.
And I know John two, everybody refers to him
as John two, is really working. And you guys have a
great rapport established. And you know, we all are
kind of working together.
And we were kind of upset over the, the
technical glitch with the phones yesterday. And now
that we have that worked out we thought well, we can
kind of keep this momentum going. And I came in this
morning and, and find out that the, you know, the power
is turned off. And with , ,
STEVE: See, see it's not that, Dick, it's
not that we can't manage anything. That doesn't evens;-
' ' ' 34
matter to us. These people, I mean you could stick
them in a blizzard, and it wouldn't really matter to
them. But it's just after the attempt of working and
just the rapport like you mentioned. And then all of a
sudden something like that. Especially when John was
in the process of calling back in regards to so
insignificant as the magazines.
And it's, it's the attitude. To David it's
some kind of a childish game. He ended up saying to
him I said to him - we were waiting for the return
call of John Cox about -- I finally walked out of his,
his room about 12:15 which was about an hour after John
said he would call us. And I just said I'm turning in.
I said anything you want me to say to these guys when
they call? I said as far as I'm concerned, I'll just,
I'd pull the plug, and I'm just going to get some rest.
I'm not going to worry about it until I'm good and
rested I told him.
He said no, don't play any kind of a game
like they do. If they call, tell them that we're,
we're counseling amongst ourselves. And I'm
communicating with God, and God's going to give us an
answer. And we're going to go from there.
DICK: Yeah. Well, well, Steve, I, I just,.
you know, we were all disappointed yesterday. I mean
when I say we, I know you all were. And, and certainly
O O 35
we were when, when things didn't go according to all
the way we were working toward with the phone. And
then I -- we, you know, we came in this morning, and we
kind of, you know, like getting hit in the head with or
running into a wall. _
I just want you to understand now that, you
know, the electricity was, that was not.our idea.
We've been working too hard too long. And we're all
disappointed.
And I think probably the commanders just had
to consider the overall big picture as it were. I'm
sure the tactical side of, of this operation is, is
telling, you know, they're telling the commanders well,
you know, I've got guys out there in the rain. It's
cold and, and maybe they were listening to them.
But we were certainly trying to communicate
with our commanders the, the relationship we had in,
in, you know, in working together and trying to resolve
this peacefully. Nobody's been hurt. I think we've
been - the negotiators, I think we've been right up
front with you. And you know, we've got this trust.
And we'd, we'd really like to continue, you know, in
the direction we were going yesterday.
Kathy, you know, was very pleased. She, you
know, we treated her very well. She --
STEVE: That's, that's -- ---
I ", 36
DICK: -- she talked to you. I know she, she
talked to you and explained --
STEVE: That was making it even easier for
H18 -- .
DICK: Right, right.
STEVE: -- to be honest with you. But now
all of a sudden these guys, they're not even talking to
me.
DICK: Yeah. Well, can I - when I ask you
can you kind of keep things rolling here, Steve? We
were -- we're very upset here. And, and certainly you
mentioned, you know, pulling the plug as it were on
the, the phone. I mean that -- you know that won't
help us, Steve. b
STEVE: That's, that's --
DICK: It won't help you.
STEVE: That, that was a statement of
frustration with these commanders that you're
referring --
DICK: Well, I can understand that.
STEVE: That's what I was telling John.
DICK: I can understand.
STEVE: I said John, look. After all of
that, what greater insult is there?
' DICK: No. _
STEVE: I mean really, what; I mean what
.0 O 3,
part -- I mean what am I to be doing? What am I to be
doing? What can I do anymore?
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: These people aren't going to listen
to me or talk to me. Now they, they're back to saying
they don't - they said see, I told you. You can't
trust these people. You got to remember, Dick. You've
got to remember how --
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
It's Dick.
. STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVEDick. Dick, Steve.
Huh?
I'm kind of a Johnny come lately here.
Oh. Dick.
You talked to Dick several days ago.
I'm sorry. You said Dick.
Dick, yeah. Like a deck on a ship.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Dick.
Yes, sir. All right.
I mean they remind me how that Sunday
how we were minding our own business. People were
getting ready for worship to, to read the Bible. I
mean that's what they remind me. Women literally.
There's so many witnesses that saw there's two
things that were seen and reported to me. I was in an
_Q Q 38
area where I saw nothing. All I did was hear sounds.
n1cx= Right. I
STEVE: But I was told by women that they,
they looked out the window and saw these cattle trucks.
They'll tell the court one day, they'll tell God. God
will even show the whole picture again how men with
pointing guns came rushing the door. David opened the
door, peeked his head out.
DICK: Right.
STEVE: And just said let's talk about it.
Back off a little bit. we've got women and children in
here. Someone fired a gun, and then rapid fire started
immediately. He backed away. I don't know how come
the guy is living. There were about three guys who
were kind of behind him. One of them was Perry Jones,
an older man, 64 years old. He was hit in the arm. He
starts --
DICK: Oh.
STEVE: - he starts walking and he starts
crying. He starts walking away, and then he's nailed
in the stomach.
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Guy falls to the floor. That's how
that thing began. At the same time, others saw three,
choppers coming over the other side of the building and
peppering David's room. So they must have known where92
92
92
1
C O 39
the, where he lived or stayed. I mean they riddled the
IOOITI .
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: You tell me and they were coming
with a search warrant? Dick, come on. A person would
have to be insanely ignorant, naive to ever buy such a
thing.
DICK: Yeah, well --
STEVE: This is the United States of I
mean this is why I've been talking the way I've been.
What does one deduce from all of this?
DICK: Yeah. Well, you know, Steve, I had
heard that --
STEVE: And then, you know, here all of
this - now these so-called - I don't know what these
commanders are about, what kind of people they are or
not, if they're even human or what. But I mean keeping
all that in mind, trying to get these people out of
here. I'm trying to talk to them, work with them and
all the rest.
It's
and will. But
no one will go
DICK
listening herebeen suggested I walk out. So oh, I can
if I do nothing will take I guarantee
out.
Well, you know, Steve, I've been
to John the last couple of days. And
you two, you know, just have got a fantastic rapport
I O .0
going. And I know this is an unfortunate situation.
But you know, I had heard a rumor or heard that an ATF
agent had kind of indicated that he, I don't know,
maybe in excitement.or rush of everything he had fired
accidentally or perhaps there, you know --
STEVE: Well, the press -- we heard over the
press a number of times that two of them admitted that
one of them either accidentally or something shot of a
gun. And then all the rest started shooting.
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: And I -- now I don't know if that --
I mean who knows where it came from? But that makes
sense to me. Because the truth is I was at the
the hallway where David was at the front door.
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE:end of
And the first thing I heard is I
never heard any voices on the outside. I didn't even
know anyone was around. But I heard David yell
something to -- get, stand back or something to
nature. Wait. we've got women and children in
Let's talk or, or let's communicate. Something
effect.out
that
here.
to that
And about that time, that's when I heard a
pop and then many, you know, like making machine gun-
noise!, many, a lot of gunfire going off from the -- I
could hear it was from the outside. Because you know,-_->~
0 ' 41
if it being - although I've never heard gunfire inside
of a building. All of a sudden, you know, I heard all
this noise. And I -- it was terrifying.
DICK: Yeah, I'm sure it was. No doubt.
STEVE: And I, I was in a, I was in a room
where there was a telephone. And I'm trying to reach
for -- I mean all of a sudden bullets are going over my
head. Windows are being shot out. I mean --
DICK: I mean I'd be scared. I'd be
terrified.
STEVE: - next thing I'm trying to, I'm
trying to lay - I'm laying on the floor. I'm laying
on the floor trying to reach over by the phone, both
Wayne and I, and trying to get a.hold of anybody. We
didn't even -- I did not know for who it was even out
there. Didn't have the foggiest.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: we had suspected that there was some
type of agents across the street. The guy that was
coming over, I mean you could tell he's late thirties.
You could tell by the way he carried himself that he
was definitely a professional of some sort. But that
like we reported over and over again, that didn't
matter. He was a human being. He showed an interest
in the Bible. And we were happy - ,
DICK: Robert, Robert.u.-'-wv
I O .2
STEVE: Yeah, Robert Gonzales. We were happy
for that. But the day he left, people they keep on
saying they're, they're trying to check out on leaks.
They're never going to find a leak. Nobody called us.
DICK: Yeah. Well, you --
STEVE: I mean people don't buy that this
David has inspiration. I sat there with Gonzales and
David. And David told him a couple of things that
surprised me that morning.
lookingAnd then finally, Perry Jones happened to be
out the one window. And when Gonzales went out
the door, his alarm went off for the first time like
four, four times. It was kind of a -- anyway, he
noticed
looking
vehicle
down bythat, Perry Jones. Then he happened to be
out the window and noticed there was another
that belonged to these guys across the street
those water tanks.
DICK: Umhum.
STEVE: And as soon as that alarm went off,
he saw the vehicle head out. So that told him that
well, what's -- what is this? And then plus, Gonzales
had said I'm going back for breakfast. And I just - I
happened to wave to the guy and say well, we'll catch
you a little later then.
he wentAnd, and as I, I watched him,
over to his house and then left right away. He
didn't, he didn't go for breakfast.
C O .3
DICK: Yeah. Well, I've been, you know, I've
been reading or hearing on the, the media that this,
this thing's gone all the way to Washington for a
Congressional inquiry with ATF and Treasury Departmentand - ~
STEVE: I haven't heard anything from the
news. If that's been happening I'm as shocked and that
the news hasn't picked up on it or said something.
DICK: Well, it's ongoing. And also I my
understanding is that the, the Texas Rangers, you know,
not, not the feds, not us necessarily are, are handling
the, the shooting incident in terms of people that
were, you know, killed --
STEVE: I'd like to talk to one sometime.
DICK: -- from both ends.
STEVE: What's the possibility of me talking
to a Texas Ranger?
DICK: I'd, I'd have to check. Our guy --
our guys, our commanders, our bosses not only here but
also, you know, clear up to Washington are kind of, you
know, between us, Steve, they're, they're just --
they're calling the, you know, they're calling the
commands out. They're telling us, you know, that goes
back to the unfortunate power outage. -
But what I'd like to get, what I'd like us to
do is maybe we can keep going. I understand you did a
lb I 44
tremendous job the last couple of days with John. If
we can just keep this thing going. I know I'll try --
STEVE: I'm not - look.
DICK: - to do the best I can. And I would
be - and I know you will too. And I, I think all the
negotiators here I understand sent a tape in. I don't
know if you had a chance to look at that.
STEVE: You know what, all of that helped.
It really did. It really helped.
DICK: Certainly. Certainly.
STEVE: And right up until 11:15 when that
happened, I tell you what. I thought -- I told even
Johnny or John Dolan I think his name is that --
DICK: Right. .
STEVE: -- I mean when we got off the phone
things are going so well, I had great hopes about
talking to more people, working this thing out today.
I mean because I wasn't really trying to push these
people but was trying to keep on talking about the
positive things they were picking up on it.
DICK: Right. Well, let, let us both keep
our hopes -
STEVE: And, and, wait, wait, wait. Now
just - and I reminded them that time was a helpful '
element. As, as they - ~
DICK: Exactly.
' ' 45
STEVE: - saw that a little time went by
and, and things are okay and so forth, I could play on
that. I could use that to your benefit, to my benefit.
So by the time I'm on the phone with John Cox, he had a
different attitude. He, he started talking about the
commanders and they weren't -- and that shocked the
heck out of me.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: It really literally shocked me. And
then all of a sudden to have the electricity go off at
11:15. What an insult. I mean whatever else that was
being worked out what was going to be done, I mean it
was like here, have this and we'll take that. And I
mean it was amazing to me. ,
Now these people -- I mean when I went to bed
I just put out a feeler to one of them. And they don't
want to even talk or -- now it's like all over. And
where am I to begin now? That's the question this
morning.
I was just I laid back here just thinking
a little bit, trying to figure out just how I'm going
to start this whole program going. They're -- I know
they're not going to even give me the time of day
today. It's going to take more time to develop what I
already had. _
DICK: Right. I hope you understand that,db}
you know, John Cox last
you know, we're both --
frustrations, you know,
made by the commanders.
STEVE: Well,
DICK: -- you
face with a --
STEVE: WhereU .6
night and as well as myself,
he was relaying the
of the, that decision that was
And I came in here --
where are the --
could hit me with a, in the
are the - where --
DICK: -- cold washcloth this morning when I
walked in.
STEVE: Whereare the commanders? Are they
in Washington, D.C. or are they here?
. DICK: Some of them are, yes. Yes. They're,
they're like, you know, commanders here telling us kind
of directing us. And not only us but the tactical side
of the house.
STEVE: Are these older men?
DICK: Yes. Yes. And --
STEVE: So they've been in the Bureau for a
lot of years.
DICK: Forever. Forever. For you know, 20,
25, 30 years. And then we've got - you know, this is
going all the way back to Washington to our
headquarters. The President, you know, Clinton is even
aware of this. So you talk about frustration. You
know, you could -- when the negotiators, we walked in
. 47
this morning, and they said hey, the commanders cut the
power --
STEVE: It's funny but I met, I met him this
summer when he was at Waco. I happened to be there.
DICK: Director Sessions? Q
STEVE: No, Clinton.
DICK: Clinton. Oh, yeah. I, I have not met
the man. I've just, you know --
STEVE: Now Sessions I'm impressed with.
I'll be honest with you. I've been impressed with what
I've heard about the man. I've always -- Reagan was
someone I, I liked as a President. I thought he was,
he did a very good job. So he I believe as I recall
appointed Sessions. And I myself have had what I've
heard about the man to me I've heard a lot of good
things.
DICK: well, he's kind of a hometown fellow
here, isn't he? He's from -- I know he frequents
coming here and visiting friends --
STEVE: I wasn't aware of that.
DICK: -- at Baylor. I think he went to
Baylor Law School here.
STEVE: See, I've spent a lot more time in
California than I have here so --
DICK: I see.
STEVE: Yeah, I'm not really --_ .
DICK: Well, that's -- I spent some time in
L.A. a long time ago.
STEVE: Uh-huh .
DICK: And it was quite interesting in L.A.
Too much of a rat race for me though, Steve. I --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: Yeah, I --
STEVE: I can believe it.
DICK: Want a smaller town, you know, little
slower pace.
STEVE: Right.
DICK: Slower pace. But you know, just to
touch back on the commanders. Steve, they don't
understand what's going on in this room. The, the
dynamics of --
STEVE: If you guys --
DICK: -- of sitting here day after day --
STEVE: well, now look I --
DICK: -- talking to you --
STEVE: -- wait, wait, wait, Dick. It's
hard --
DICK: Yes, sir.
STEVE: -- for me to buy that when you're the
age you are with the experience you have. You're a '
negotiator as the other men that I've spoken with. If
you have a problem communicating what's been happening-_-
I |, 49
to them, which I really don't buy that you do. I mean
you know, I wasn't born yesterday. I might talk on the
phone real friendly and easy and the rest. But at the
same time, I know what your personalities are like. I
am -- i
DICK: Well, is that good or bad, Steve?
Laughing.!
STEVE: -- look, look. I'm listen. I'm
43 years old myself. I've been in the world, in this
world a little while. Not long. But because I've
dealt with thousands of people of all walks of life,
and I'm always sitting down with people in regards to
eternal things, opening up the Bible, trying to find an
avenue to their mind where I can show them something
that they might evaluate the information offered to
them and give it a judgment. But I, you know, after
observation and through the years watching how people
work, I mean it's pretty hard to buy that anybody would
be so naive as to hear some of the things I'm told.
DICK: Well, you know, they - the commanders
hear what we, you know, what we tell them.
STEVE: Well, I, I would believe those --
DICK: They --
STEVE: Listen. I would believe those -
commanders are right there. You have a speaker phone
there. You record all the information. So they>.-v
Q U 50
have - all of you have opportunity to hear and recheck
the conversations. And if any of you are psychologists
or whatever or analysts, you can sit there and peck it
apart and wonder what next to do or to try. So --
DICK: I'm just sitting here talking to you,
Steve.
STEVE: I mean --
DICK: I'm not a psychologist. And --
STEVE: Well --
DICK: - I'm not an analyst.
STEVE: well, whatever. But you can, you --
DICK: I'm just one of the humps.
. STEVE: Maybe that's true with yourself. But
you can hand off the, the conversation. They can
listen and see what kind of progress we're making.
What kind of minds you're dealing with in here. We've
honestly tried to be very straight and forthright from
the beginning.
DICK: I understand that. I, I understand.
STEVE: Here's a people practicing religious
freedom and whatever else in America. If there was a
problem, just like we said from the beginning, an agent
or two should have come to the door, served
End of tape #121!. '
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #122
3/l3/93
0836 A.M. 0921 A.M.
I I 2
Tape 122!
STEVE: -- bullets are fired and all the
rest. There are some people, not everybody, but there
are some people that feel they've got to defend
themselves. I've always been the type that thought,
well, whatever comes comes and you just do whatever,
you do the best you can.
I've never, to the background! Pardon? What's
that?
DICK: You talking to somebody?
STEVE: That was Judy just talking.
DICK: Oh.
STEVE: She says, why didn't Robert Gonzalez
just bring a friend in? I mean, we already --
DICK: I don't know, Steve.
STEVE: -- accepted the guy, we, we liked the
guy, we knew he was an agent, he could have served us
any time. Everybody would have gone out. But, I mean,
when it happened as it did, and then we -- when we
watched, now listen to this, when we hear and watch
this man, Dan, whatever his name is, from the ATF on
the television, that, it's so obvious, he, the man
wants blood. He could give a crap about, about the
justice, on both sides. He doesn't talk about his men
ever being brought to justice or that there was any
wrong doing. It looks like the guy's got a vengeance
O I 3
to find some leak in the press and go for their throats
and jugular also.
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Dick, they came here with murder or
for murder, whatever their reasons were, they did.
when you see the room that David was in, how it shot up
from a chopper, and how the front door was peppered
with bullets, there's, --
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: -- it is a miracle that David Koresh
is not laying on the floor dead himself. It is a
miracle.
DICK: Yeah, Steve --
STEVE: And I know this, no one is gonna buy
this until one day there, the great judgement thrown,
everybody stands as an individual themselves, whether
they believe in God or not. I just happen to be one of
those idiots that believes that there's a God. But,
and that's not far away. John Cox and David Koresh
were speaking about this star, they call it the hotlick
star.
DICK: Yeah, I saw an article on that.
STEVE: David says this is his God working.
All through the Bible it talks about a guy comes in the
final days, he has no power to do miracle --. The only
miracle he can do is open up an old archaic book that
O O 4
people have had for centuries and make it come to life
and show how it harmonizes, not by interpretation,
opinion theory or feeling, but when the questions are
asked, he will show chapters and context until all the
pieces of the puzzles are laid out and you see a very
clear picture, and he, he gives a challenge. Go ahead
and controvert this, ask questions, come back, tear it
apart. There's been no one, and I've been with him,
scholars all over the world have sat down, they can't
do it. So if you people have been, like John Cox, have
been listening carefully to what the man has been
saying in the evening when you think that he's rambling
about the Bible because in your mind they, you've made
up, because you have seen these slanderous things, this
is a little weird cult out in the middle of nowhere, --
DICK: No, I --
STEVE: No, no, listen, let me finish.
DICK: Okay, okay, sure.
STEVE: I know that's, I know that's a great
stumbling block to people. It is meant to be because
an honest searcher for truth, if they just listen for
just a moment, they'll judge a few things that are
being opened up, and all the Bible harmonizes about
some guy that comes in the final days, and it's clear
how he comes, as the Book of Revelations says,
according to what the prophets say. well, what do they
I O 5
say? Those men died believing they had seen a vision
or had seen something relating to the future, and many
of them died in a very bad way, being tormented,
persecuted, and they left their testimony, and a lot of
it deals with history and that history has been
fulfilled, especially in relation to Babylon, the Medes
and Persians, Greece and Rome. It was foretold of
those four empires, and then out of the ruins of the
Roman empire would come a new power. Well, what was
that? Well, the Roman papacy, the Roman Catholic
Church wielding it's power over, which was through the
time of the Dark Ages.
But, I mean, the Bible gets into details about
these things, and for, for a person that is into logic
and sense, they'll take the time and thereby, looking
at the information, evaluating and giving a verdict,
but that's why we're here and in the process of us
doing that, there's some things that these Prophets
talk about that might be and that's the stumbling
block. I knew it would come to this one day. I mean,
not to the point of gunfire and all that, but the part
where people would definitely be threatening ones
lives. Just like this John Pagano Phonetic! said over
the radio waves.
DICK: I'm not, I'm not familiar with him,
Steve.
O O 6
STEVE: well, he's been on the radio lately.
He came out here, we auditioned him to be a bass player
in our band, and he, he's been telling, being as honest
as he can about his reflections as to being here. I
heard he called in a third time. I believe now he's
trying to get some glory out of this because, you know,
it's something that's a newsworthy event.
DICK: Pagano, or ~?
STEVE: John Pagano, I think it is.
DICK: John Pagano. I, I --
STEVE: He lives out in Oregon. I don't even
know what city.
DICK: Oh, oh.
STEVE: But anyway, I can tell the guy's now
seeking to gain from this, as, you know, a lot of
others are, but, that's neither here or there, but now
my job, what am I going to do, I don't know. I guess
in a little bit here I'm going, it's freezing cold in
here by the way.
DICK: I, I could imagine. I -
STEVE: And that don't matter. People,
they're use to this kind of thing. They'll put up with
it. when it comes to no lights, that's no problem
either. What they want is truly justice. They're not
convinced they're gonna get it, and that's what I was
working on with John over the last few days, and it
I O 7
seemed like something was happening, it helped a lot --
DICK: It was.
STEVE: It seemed like Kathy, being on the
other side, her calling back, it, the one, one thing
that was not too helpful is when Oliver arrived and he
did not call back. That was a big deal with the two
guys that were ready to go out.
DICK: Yeah, --
STEVE: And it wasn't anybody's fault, maybe
it was mine, but I should have tried to call back
sooner.
Yesterday afternoon when I didn't hear from-John,
he said he was going to call in minutes, and I waited
for him, and then I went and started doing some filming
of Pablo Cohen, and I waited a little longer and I
thought, well what's, finally I, I thought, well, how
come he hasn't called? So I got on the phone and he
said that, that they actually tried to call 25 times --
DICK: I, yeah, I was here. We were kind of
frantic there because we thought, maybe, you know, you
know, something, you know, you all might have done
something with the phone on that end, and then finally
we resolved it - I was here when John was calling and
calling and calling, and we had the milk, you know,
apparently it was sitting, I understand it was sitting
out there for a couple of hours.
O O 8
STEVE: I'll tell you what tipped me off to
that was I didn't even know that until someone said
they looked out the window and saw, I guess, coolers
out there.
DICK: Greg, maybe?
STEVE: Yeah, I think it was, and I thought,
that, that's when I thought, well, that's strange
because I didn't know that that would happen until I
would be talking to John, so that's when I went to call
him back.
DICK: Yeah, we thought that might be why,
you know, we couldn't get you on the phone and we
thought, well, maybe we could set the milk out there
and they would see it and that would be like a signal
to call in and say, hey, what's going on, and, so
we're, we're glad you saw that and we finally made
contact, and, I tell you, you know, we'd like to really
keep things going, Steve.
STEVE: well, see, your actions don't show
that, that's the whole thing. That's what David was
trying to tell John Cox last night. He's, in the Bible
it says, it talks about how a lamb-like beast speaks as
a dragon. But in this case it's more like a, a lamb
speaking but the actions are like a dragon.
So, this is what's being perceived by the people
here, and they're the ones that have to make a decision
O O 9
about themselves walking out into that sort of a
situation and, and as of today, the two guys that were,
that, what time do you have there by the way?
DICK: It's about 8:45, 8:45, Steve.
STEVE: See, they were gonna be, they were
gonna be coming out in about 9, 9:30 tonight --
DICK: Right, that's what I understood.
STEVE: Brad Branch and Kevin Whitecliff.
DICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: And a little bit later, I believe,
Rita, herself, is talking about leaving, maybe by noon.
That's what she was telling us.s
DICK: Rita, huhhuh.
STEVE: And she was one that originally
wasn't, that, I didn't even tell, see, now, they wanted
names from me. They were - when I started telling
John that I had been talking to people and people start
showing an interest, he says, well, what are their
names and I thought, well, that doesn't hurt me telling
their names, --
DICK: Right.
STEVE: But I was still at a place where I
wasn't totally, positively sure. And then to think
that you people have the audacity to call me back and
act like, well, we had committed a number of people to
come, that is bullcrap. It never was true.
Q Q 10
DICK: I see.
STEVE: I was still working my best to try
to, to give these guys confidence. And then to hear
that kind of thing on the press and to hear how the
negotiators had brought out twenty-some people already,
I mean, what on earth! It was David, originally, that
suggested and wanted the children to go out ahead. It
had nothing to do with negotiation whatsoever.
But, I mean, you know, all those things are an
insult to, to the truth and it doesn't help, but we've
even tried to work around that. we know people are
glory seekers and people want to take things onto
themselves, and, so, you know, let it be, but, I mean,
when it comes to, like, what's happened, like, last
night, after working the last two or three days between
the statements and all the rest of it, well, you know,
I, this is a new day, I'm just gonna have to ultimately
just get up here and see what's going on and what to
do, but right now, to tell you the truth, I've been
laying back here thinking about it, trying to figure
out what, what the next move should be.
David definitely is not happy about it period.
Not happy about it. so, if they come and ask him what
they, what he thinks about it, --
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: That, it's gonna definitely go
l l ll
counter to what I could do anyway. I'm telling you
that right now. I've had a lot of measure of leeway
myself, people have been coming to me, asking, talking
in the last two or three days, so I've had opportunity
like I have not had. Also, because things have been
going good. David said, and it was true. He knows how
these people are. He says, he said to one of the, I
think it could have been Henry, one of the guys that,
give them, give them some time. You will see, on their
own, if you give them a little time, by their, by them
contemplating, thinking about it, you know, that'll
make a difference. In other words, he's not gonna say,
you got to get out of here or you, seriously. So, I
mean, it started working. It gave me opportunity, he
wasn't feeling well, to be talking to all those people
and it started to, the wheels were turning.
Now, if there was people, those commanders would
have had any brains at all or any sense, they'd have
seen it all of a sudden and, a momentum was beginning
DICK: I know, I know what you mean.
STEVE: It's a mind blower to me. Listen, to
let, Dick, let me say, that's what scares me. If
you've got people in that organization that, after all
this time, to see what was starting to happen, they
didn't have, I mean, and they're over you. What on
O O 12
earth, I mean, that causes these people here all the
more apprehension as to what's going on out there.
DICK: Exactly. well, you could imagine our
frustration walking in here this morning --
STEVE: I hope you are taping this --
DICK: It's, it's --
STEVE: I hope you're taping this this
morning, because I'd like them to hear this. You play
it back to them.
DICK: Steve, it's like, I don't know if
watch football games, you know, and, the winning team,
it's like they come up with the Gatorade and pour it on
the coach, that's they way we, you know, we felt this
morning when we walked in here. You could have poured
ice, cold water on us, you know. It was really, it
was, you know, really disappointing. I don't know what
to tell you. I, we, maybe we can still try and work
this thing out, and --
STEVE: well, you know, irregardless now with
they turning the electricity off, on, or whether they
offer this or do that, it's, it's been a huge, huge,
huge setback, it has, because a lot of these people are
trying to give those commanders credit as being
responsible adults, not game players, not anything like
that and that, this is why David said to me, I was so
frustrated last night when I, hear I'm talking, I was
Q I 13
actually talking to him about what to do next, what
could be said to these people when the lights went out.
I mean, --
DICK: Well , --
STEVE: honestly, that's, and, all of a
sudden, I was hoping that it was just some malfunction
or something in the wall, one of the switches or
something like that. I was hoping, it can't be, it
can't be. And, especially, so early after we just
talked to John Cox, and I, and then to find out that's
what it was and then John never even, he said he was
gonna call me back, he never did, I mean, it just went
from bad to worse. It went from bad to worse.
Finally, I said to David, there was silence between us
for one hour, he did not talk. Then I finally said to
him, I'm turning in, I'm not gonna worry about it. I
said, now, what do you want me to do? Should I just, I
says, as far as I'm concerned, I'm just gonna pull the
plug and when I'm good and rested and I've got my wits
about me, I'll plug it back in, if they want to call
I'll talk to them. He says, no, don't even pull the
plug, don't, don't play that kind of a game. Don't be
childish. I said that was only a frustrated thought.
And from there I just went to bed.
DICK: All right, well, you know, we, we're
certainly frustrated. we would like to continue
Q O 14
working together. I think, Steve, I think in your
heart of hearts that, that you realize that all of the
negotiators that you have talked to are sincere in
trying to peacefully resolve this. I think too much
negative has happened, I don't really, it's
unfortunate, I don't really like to dwell on that but
I, I think, you know, we have to, we have to walk
through this thing together.
You know that our efforts were very sincere
yesterday when Kathy came out, she was, she was very
pleased, I think, there was, you know, we were, I'd
like to think that we were professionals and gentlemen.
STEVE: Dick, I want, I want to save you, I
want to save the time we, you and I can reiterate and
go through the entire thing over and over and over
again, but ultimately you've got people in here that
have to look at things from their vantage point. It's,
no matter what you say and I say, it's like starting
all over again trying to gain some confidence, and it
just put a huge distrust, the words that you and I can
say about what happened yesterday is all fine and good,
but there's no reason to them why what happened,
happened as it did when we were told by both sides that
things were going so well and we're hearing this
rapport thing over and over again, but it comes to
actions. That's what they're judging by, obviously.
C O 15
DICK: Certainly, certainly.
STEVE: So, now, here we are, back a square
one again, as, and in it, it's worse because after all
this time, I was hoping, okay, we've finally got the
breakthrough, it's going to get bigger and bigger.
DICK: Right. Sure, we were elated
yesterday, you know, when Kathy came out and we didn't,
STEVE: Let me tell you, --
DICK: -- oh, this is a big, giant step for
STEVE: Let me tell you, even for myself
within the first few days, you know, all of us
contemplated, especially myself about coming out
because as far as I
had no problem with
wrong in here, even
room by a telephone
rat-a-tat-tat. Thewas concerned, number one, I knew I
the law, there's nothing I've done
that very day, I mean, I'm in a
and all of a sudden I hear this
first thing I do is hit, both Wayne
and I were, had a been talking together, the first
thing we do is hit 991, or 911, and start talking with
a Larry Lynch, --
DICK: Yeah, I met Larry. Tremen- very nice
person.
STEVE: Well, I mean, I've never met him, but
all I know is that right from the beginning, Wayne and
O Q 16
I did nothing but trying to find out who it was on the
outside of the door shooting at us, women and children,
everybody, I mean, people were getting wounded, hurt
and killed, I didn't know about what was happening on
the outside. I didn't know what was happening at the
other end of the building or through our building, but
all of a sudden I could hear popping and shooting all
over the place and the first thing we were doing was
screaming, get em off, I remember Wayne even speaking
very high voiced because of the excitement of what was
happening, kept on telling them to back off, let us
communicate, tell them to stop. And it did not. It did
not stop.
But anyway, that should all be on tape, we've
talked for the longest time, trying to get this thing
resolved, and it was myself and Wayne that tried to
immediately after getting it stopped, allowed these men
to get the wounded off. we didn't want anybody to die,
I didn't even know anybody had up to that point in
time. We wanted these people to get out so they could
live and the wounded to be tended, and it, and what
we're showing right off, later that day, instead of
something more open and helpful was the Bradley's,
something more intimidating yet.
DICK: It was a safety factor, Steve, for --
STEVE: For somebody, listen, for somebody,
0 In "
not for us.
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: I mean, somebody had already come to
kill us. Somebody had already come to attack us.
DICK: Now, --
STEVE: And you're having a problem with
that, but you weren't here, Dick, you weren't here. I
was here.
DICK: Well, I --
STEVE: I heard, I heard the shots, I heard
what was -- and these were, there were a lot of people
that got to look out those windows and saw firsthand
what happened, the men approached the door, they saw
it. No matter what happens to them, at times, these
people get the idea, now, I don't know, this is what
I've been trying to talk to them about. They get the
idea that those on the outside want to do us all so
there's no evidence, period, as to what happened, that
they may want to burn the building down, they want to
destroy the evidence, because the evidence, from the
door, will clearly show how many bullets and what A
happened, especially if there's, the press got video of
this, but the thing is, they get the idea because the,
your agencies backed the press off three miles away. I
mean, they're gonna have a hard time seeing what's
going to be going on here. They're leery of these,
O 90 '8
these agencies right now.
DICK: Yeah, I --
STEVE: They're leery. Then you get this
guy, Dan, on tv, who always, a lot of these questions
that are asking him, he's very ambiguous about, he
shows a spirit that he wants blood, the guy wants
somebody. He even wants the press, those that he
thinks might have been tipped off or tipped somebody
off here, which is baloney.
But at the same time, you can tell the guy, he's
not talking about any reprimanding of his own agency --
DICK: well, I think he's fully aware of that
STEVE: I don't care if he is. I want to
hear it and see it on the press like everybody else.
The press has been totally stifled from their freedoms
to, to be a watchdog over this agency that's been
created, and what are they being able to do? They
can't even report or film or anything else. They can't
talk to us to see if we're alive or if you people are
telling the truth. You people have become an arm of
big brother, that's basically the truth, and that, I
mean, I've always had respect for the FBI. I've never
known anything about the ATF and what I have heard has
not been good, and now what I've seen by their actions,
I mean, of course, even I'm leery of them, but at the
~ 19
same time I've still been hoping through all of this
through working with you guys that something can be
resolved that, with a little time, that we'd get things
generated, and they were being generated.
DICK: Exactly, they were.
STEVE: Okay, so, now, the only thing I can
tell you is in a little bit here is I'm gonna put the
phone down with you, I'll get up, I'm gonna go try to
talk to some people to see what's gonna happen --
DICK: Okay, great.
STEVE: but it's not going to be anything
easy. Nothing at all.
DICK: I understand your sit-, I understand.
STEVE: Somebody already came up to me early
this morning and told me they had talked to, I think it
was, Kevin, and he has no, no thought about even
leaving here now. -
DICK: Right.
STEVE: And I'm thinking to myself, thanks a
lot. Thanks a lot you people.
DICK: Steve, you know, we're, we're, you
know, we're not all jerks. I don't think any of the
negotiators, I think they're sincerely trying to keep
the peace, keep everybody on an even, you know, an even
keel, and, and maybe trying to --
STEVE: Sessions is too big of a man to even
O
be involved in this --
DICK: He
there's a, you know, you hear all
STEVE: I
DICK: -- but he is --
STEVE: --
like, all the way up
whoever else, it, it
respecter of persons. Years ago,
Hawaii as a young man, early 20s,
stars. I was invited to parties,
whole routine, I noticed quickly,
than that in life, everybody eats,
everybody has sex --
DICK: Right, we're all
STEVE: -- everybody --is, well, Steve, I, you know,20
these rumors, --
really don't know him --
you know, when it comes to people
to Clinton or to Sessions or
doesn't, to me, see, I'm no
when I lived in
I met a lot of movie
I went through that
early, much earlier
everybody defecates,
human beings.
and everybody dies.
DICK: we're all human beings.
STEVE: So--
DICK: we have a lot in COHUTIOII .
STEVE: - very early in life, I've noticed
that, you know, it came down to connections, it came
down to environment background, who and, a lot of
things like that, so, nothing like that. I like
people. I just overall like people.
DICK: Right. I can tell, you know, just,
I've been listening to you and John a I know that
Q Q 21
you're, you're a people person.
STEVE: But --
DICK: There's no doubt in my mind.
STEVE: The whole thing is, I mean, I don't
know who these commanders are or who has the final say,
but somebody is lacking, someone is lacking in
understanding and, and dealing with people. Especially
in a situation like this, if they could put themselves
in the shoes of human beings and this building and this
place, they should realize the great apprehension and
the concern, what might be happening to these
individuals, especially when, in the first place, they
weren't doing nothing illegal when they were attacked.
So, keeping that all in mind and always keeping it in
mind, in that kind of a mind frame, one should be
dealing accordingly with that sort of a situation.
And I, if you check on the backgrounds, I heard on
the press that you have over 100 names of the
individuals in here, if you check them out, you're
gonna find the majority of these people to be educated,
they're level headed thinkers, there's not a so-called,
well, you may think so, it's your judgement, but, I do
not -- I
DICK: I, I --
STEVE: -- see the stereotype cult mentality.
These are people that every day have to wrestle with
I Q
the reality that, is this true or fal
has made, listen to me now.
DICK: I'm listening.22
se because David
STEVE: David has made it hard out here so
that you realize the only reason you
because you are learning or gaining a
that you've not gained elsewhere. Yowould be here is
truth from a book
u can pay as much
money you want to any university. You can go there and
you're not going to get the answers y
You're not going to get the consisten
So, these people that have come
Little, who is a computer, a mainfram
programmer, he, I mean, the guy is am
had with Yamaha and so forth, I mean,
individuals, many teachers here, nurs
that are, that are educated and every
them, like myself, every day is a new
to myself, am I gonna stay here today
throw my hands in disgust and say I'm
kind of crap, I'm going back to Hawai
to live for Steve and nobody else --
DICK: It's warmer there, S
warmer. '
STEVE: well, listen to me.
what I've got to wrestle with.
DICK: Certainly.ou get here.
cy and so forth.
here, like Jeff
e computer
azing. The job he
there's many
es here, people
day just like
day where I say
or am I gonna
tired of this
i to live my life,
teve. It's
Everyday that's
' ~ 23
STEVE: Everyday. Judy's wrestled with that,
I've wrestled with it. Every day is a new day, it's
like, do I stay with this thing because the elements,
there's no, like, of course, there's outdoor toilets
here. There --
DICK: Oh, I wasn't aware of that.
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: Oh.
STEVE: And David has allowed that purposely
because, otherwise we would have had people come here
from all over the world, living here for just, for
because it's, it's free.
DICK: Just to be there. Sure, sure.
STEVE: And, and because there's no charges
or anything, so for that reason, he threw out a
stumbling block. Let's, he says, I want to keep the, I
want to keep outdoor toilets, I want to do this, I want
to keep the building kind of rough in shape and not
really finished and that way people that come here,
they're coming for one reason, because they're coming
to know something. He says, let it be a stumbling
block, so that way we can find out if they're, these
people are coming, they, they have real honesty, they,
they're coming and hanging on and holding on for the
truth, for the truth's sake and no other reason, not
because of personalities, not because of something that
0 ~ 24
is free, because all over the world, those things are
being offered through the Salvation Army and many other
organizations.
So that was the reason for that and it's shown
even in the Bible in the final days what kind of a
stumbling block the final truth are for the mankind
would be. Man and his pride and arrogancy and because
of our advancement in technology, not realizing it came
by the inspiration of God as Daniel the Prophets says,
in Chapter 12, verse 4 and S. But we see these things
as the outcome of God's spirit, his guidance through
6,000 years of human, human history, but we believe,
like David is saying, like, just like dealing with that
star, that guitar nebula, the hotlick --
DICK: Right.
STEVE: -- star and its quick movement.
David told John Cox, that star is moving very slowly,
DICK: Oh.
STEVE: - and he, and in the Bible, in the
Bible, he can show you in the Book of Job and elsewhere
what is going to happen with the constellations and
what astronomy, what physics is about, it's a mind
blower. I mean, if he can sit down with engineers and
show them how the pyramids got there, how they actually
did lay block up blocks so tight, and how sand, being a
U ~ 25
foundation, those things are not sinking and explain
and show clearly through physics why the three of them
of there, it's, it's a mind blower. It is.
So, he gets into information like that, but he
told me the other night he was gonna develop something
like that for John Cox when he was talking to him about
the star. But because of John's lack of sincerity and
interest in what he was saying, he told me after the
conver-- this is what he told me --
DICK: David, David told you?
STEVE: Yes. After the conversation, the
phone went down, he said that God has never allowed him
to, he says, cast pearls, cast no pearls before swine.
Now, that's all of us. Anybody that, that travels on
through or things like that and don't pick up, don't
show an honest interest, as he really, John really
didn't. David loves John, he likes John --
DICK: Does that mean we're all swine over
here?
STEVE: No, no, no, don't, now, wait,
everybody. I am, everybody is.
DICK: Oh, okay.
STEVE: I mean, if a person, if a person is
offered a tidbit of truth, but they've already got
mental barriers and they've created a wall because they
see us as a cult and so forth, then they're not going
O Q 26
to be listening 100%. I can, I know that ahead of
time. You and I know both know that. But once in a
while, maybe if the man starts developing something and
there's a logic or a tenor of understanding there,
maybe that will picked up on. That's what David was
trying to develop. But, John, he still likes, don't
get me wrong, but David probably will no longer attempt
to start communicating in that manner again.
DICK: with John,
STEVE: Yeah, where, where he's going show
him some real awesome things like with physics. He
never did develop it, by the way, cause I was sitting
there listening to a degree, and I saw that David was
going to attempt to open up some things that would have
been a mind blower to John, if he knows anything about
astronomy or physics, but it never developed because I
could tell that the listener on the other end was not
really listening whole heartedly, so when David got off
the phone he showed the manner that he couldn't, David
can't do anything only according to how a person reacts
to him. This is the way the spirit of God's always
worked with him. He says, now of course, you may not
believe that, it may sound like some hokey, weird thing
to you and I can't blame you for that, but that's
exactly the way I, what I've observed for 6-1/2 years.
I've seen him sit in a room of 40, 50 people and if
O VI 21
that room is interested, it's awesome what opens up.
It's awesome what opens up. Otherwise, he could be in
a room with five people that have no interest and
really not much comes out at all. But that's the way
the spirit has worked with him, whatever spirit it is.
But now, it was with David, that I was sitting
there last night, talking to John Cox, John talked to
David also, and that's about the time, I mean, we just
got off the phone with him. John was going to be
calling me back.
DICK: was he suppose to call you this
morning, or --?
STEVE: well, no. Here's what happened.
Even before the electricity, it was, I think it was
about eleven o'clock, and I just got off with John, and
he told me he was going to call me back, so I sat there
in David's room, David was very quiet, so I'm sitting
there, all of a sudden, oh, and, no, no, David started,
he started reading a passage of the Bible to me, and
about that time the lights went out. It was quarter
after eleven, the lights went out, and all of a sudden,
well, what's this? what's this all about? So that's
what happened, and about that time I, I tried to feel
for the phone in the dark, I dialed out the number and,
okay, what's going on, John, and he says, well, what
are you talking about? He didn't even know?
0 lb 28
DICK: we were totally shocked.
STEVE: Supposedly he didn't, I mean, I don't
know that for a fact, of course. But anyway, then, of
course, we find out, yeah, well, they did turn off the
electricity. to the background! Pardon?
DICK: Oh, you talking to somebody else,
Steve?
STEVE: Yes, someone just was talking to me
here.
DICK: Oh, okay, okay, yeah. Well, you know,
like I said, you could have, you know, dumped cold
water on us this morning when we walked in and we would
like to continue going forward.
STEVE: I don't know, is there, is there
going to be a press conference this morning?
DICK: I understand. I think there probably
is at the usual time, that's about 10:30, as I
understand it.
STEVE: I'll be interested to hear what they
have to say today. It's going to bear on a lot of
what's going to be taking place from here, believe me.
DICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: Number one, we're not going to be
watching any tv, so if it's not on a radio station,
well, then, we don't know what it is. If we don't know
it is, it doesn't really matter, you guys are
O 0II¬$I92D'~w-0.-. ~ 29
definitely cutting the lines of communication, which
you already have done through the electricity, so --
DICK: Do you understand that's, --
STEVE: - no, no, no, it's, wait --
DICK: -- it's a commander's, Steve.
STEVE: Hold, hold, just one minute. I got
to talk to someone here.
DICK: Oh, okay. Okay.
[gap]
STEVE: Okay, I'm back.
DICK: Yeah, Steve, it was a, was that
positive? You were talking to somebody else, was that
David?
STEVE: No, it was an older woman that's
here.
DICK: Oh, I see. I see.
STEVE: She had a question or two for me.
DICK: Yeah, yeah, well, I --
STEVE: She was wondering what's going, I
mean, every now and then, throughout the day you get
people asking what's happening and going on.
DICK: Certainly, certainly. Let me, can I
ask a big favor of you? Could you, can you kind of
tell, I can tell in your voice from the last couple of
days and sitting here with John-2, I guess they call,
you all call him John-2, --
I Q 3°
STEVE: John Dolan?
DICK: Yes, John Dolan, that, that you
certainly were, just from the tone of your voice, very
positive and upbeat about the progress that you and
John had made and hopefully, can I rely on you to maybe
continue in that vein, in that, in that path, maybe we
get back with you later on?
STEVE: Listen, I don't want ~-
DICK: Can we try that, Steve?
STEVE: I don't want to be lying to you or
playing any kind of a game with you, but when I turned
in with David, now, all of a sudden, it is serious.
I'm telling you the truth. It's, right now it's like
it's not been before. David, the look on his face,
when that took place last night, finally I, I sat there
one hour, in the dark, in silence with him. He had a,
he lit up a candle and I, every now and then I just
looked over at him. He never spoke, never said a word.
So finally, an hour went by and John Cox never called
back, so I said to David, well, I'm gonna turn in and
I'm gonna pull the plug, unless you have an objection
to that.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: He says, don't pull the plug. I
says, well, if he calls, would you, for myself, I
really don't have anything to say right now. I says, I
0 ~ 31
got to go cool off, I've got to contemplate on what
needs to be done to try to get this going cause I
said, I knew these guys wouldn't be going out today. I
knew they'd change their mind and sure enough, I only
talked to one, but I can, I haven't talked to the other
yet, but I really doubt that he'll be going either, and
I said to David, well, what would you, what do you want
them to hear? And he says, you tell them, we are all
counseling together --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- and also I'm going to, I'm going
to get counsel from God, --
DICK: All right.
STEVE: -- and because they don't want to
communicate with us, they've cut the, they've cut the
cord of communication, we'll communicate with God.
That's what he said. So that's what I'm passing on.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: And he never, he never smiled, never
blinked. He had a stern face. It did not look good to
me so I turned in thinking, well, I'll just wait till
the morning and see what happens. So, now, what am I
to do today? I don't know yet.
DICK: Could you, could you communicate to
David that we would like to continue?
STEVE: I'm not going to even, I'm going to
0 ~ 32
give him a lot of time. I'm going to let him request
to see me today.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Right now it's so quiet in there.
I'm not going to bother him. I'm just going to, it's
so cold in here --
DICK: I can imagine. I know.
STEVE: That's why I decided to stay in a
little bit long --
DICK: It's probably very uncomfortable.
STEVE: I decided to stay in a little bit
longer today.
DICK: Sure. well, Steve, you know that we,
especially you and John, hopefully myself today, --
STEVE: what happened to John anyway?
DICK: He, he's kind of out of pocket for a
while. I think he'll be getting back some time later,
you know, so they said, well, hey Dick, you get on the
phone and --
STEVE: That's, we never --
DICK: So, I'm kind of in, I'm kind of in the
hot seat here.
STEVE: We never talked to you before, huh?
DICK: No, no. This is the first time.
That's why, the tape, apparently that they sent in, I,
Q
because I hadn't
tape, that video.
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
since?
DICK: Yeah,
to, scheduled toRight~ 33
talked to you all, I wasn't on that
That video, but --
So Jim, the ATF agent, is taken off
he had to go. He was scheduled
move and he, I think he was under a
move back to Washington, so he's going back there
probably to face some heat, you know, from this
congressional inquiry that's, that's gearing up.
STEVE: You say probably, I have my doubts.
DICK: Oh, I, I don't doubt. Maybe I should
have said he will be involved in that. There's no
doubt in my mind. But, yeah, he left, what's today,
yeah, last weekend, last Saturday or Sunday, it was.
He's a fine person. I, I talked to him briefly, and --
STEVE: Well, I don't know about, I mean, I
don't really know any of you, but, of course, you know,
David, because the man
and myself, that first
was so adamant to want
course, Gary, who's indid make some headway with David
day, Sunday, that's why David
to stay with the man, but, of
your office there, got on the
phone right away with us saying that he could pick up
and do okay, but because of confusion, what was
happening at the time, because of the commitments made
O Q 34
by Jim, this is why David had wanted to continue with
him, but it was, like I said, Gary, from what I
remember, in those early days, there was nothing wrong
with what he was attempting to do. I saw that he was l
trying to lay out something very open and to work with
us and I was aware of that then. So, in honesty, I
have had no problem talking to him either, really
haven't had.
DICK: Good.
STEVE: So, I, of course, got to see on the
video what he had to say and, and see him there, and, I
mean, it doesn't make any difference to me. If someone
wants to try to work, so forth, I mean, that's what
I've been trying to do from day one, even though, like
your representative with the press, Bob Ricks, --
DICK: Bob Ricks.
STEVE: -- talked about me being uneven
tempered, which, of course, would come across the way,
I wanted to be perceived
DICK: Certainly.
STEVE: -- in that way, because on, on one
side, we were getting calls about having somebody
looking out the window and here guys are in armored
Bradley's being, I mean, here, you know, I mean, that
whole business about here we have guns pointed at us,
people are digging up our property, running over the
O ~ as
motorcycles, running over the buildings, I mean, that's
okay for you people to do that, and we dare not squawk
about it. Those were the things that caused a person
to be unevened tempered, and Bob Ricks didn't tell that
to the press. This is why these people have not wanted
to make moves. This is what I'm against, going against
and up against, and that's why they wanted the press
involved because you guys don't tell the truth in the
total picture. You don't paint the picture as it is.
So Bob Ricks, and this new man Swenson, Dick
Swenson, they can say a lot of things. They can give
connotations that, that aren't there. They can state
things in a way that is not truthful at all, and every
day when we watch those press conferences, this is
what's happened, and this other man, Dan, he can
ambiguous and, and all the rest, and these things don't
help, Dick.
DICK: I know, --
STEVE: These things do not help. This is
why, from the first day or two, when this whole thing
came about, the, this event, we had access to the
press. People were all ready to come out. They were
ready to come out by Tuesday because of that very
reason. We have been able to talk to the press, some
things have been known from this side so then they were
starting to feel like it was okay to move. We were, we
Q ~ as
were positively coming out that Tuesday until his God
said wait and because his people believed in his
inspiration that's why they decided to do that on their
own, even though daily he had me go around, asking
people, do you want to leave, daily.
So now, like you say, we're back to square one
here and it's gonna, I don't know where it's gonna
take, I mean, --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: - I can start dialoging with people
again.
DICK: Well, well --
STEVE: And I don't think it's going to
really matter because now they're gonna want to wait, I
mean, they're gonna watch, with the electricity,
they're gonna see what you people think you can offer
them for a way of trust, because that had been broken.
I mean, any time you start shaking, see, it's like
this, it's like you're shaking hands on the right side
and things are going well, both parties are smiling,
but the guy takes his left hand and slaps the guy in
the side of the head or something. I mean, that's what
happened yes, or last night at 11:15. These people,
right away apparently there's not, you know, a lot of
them were awake still, and they came to me saying, did
you know the electricity's cut off? I says, yeah, I'm
Q Q 37
sitting in the dark also, like yourselves.
So all of a sudden, they're coming with their
concerns about even going anywhere now. So what is it
going to take? I don't know. I really don
…[truncated]