Document text
THE BEST COPIES OBTAINABLE ARE
INCLUDED IN THE REPRODUCTION
OF THE FILEI PAGES INCLUDED
THAT ARE BLUR%D, LIGHT OR
OTHERWTSE DIFFICULT TO READ
ARE THE RESULT OF THE CONDITION
AND OR C OLOR OF THE ORIGINALS
PROVIDER, THESE ARE THE BEST
QOPIES AVAILABLE
Q Q -
Mg /veg 0§|'t/A41 /7Rn0s¢.ki>i's i};,;feJ
Ph Pom Puteg |!,',1
/D8 PHRi'n'!g,¢! Z;-
0+ fe
7@¬Asagj
w
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #61
3/5/93
9:25 P.M. 10:12 P.M.
I Q 2
JOHN COX: -- I worked under cover years and
years ago and I wasn't there to have somebody save my
soul. I was there to either prove someone was
violating the law or prove they weren't violating the
law, and that was the only sole purpose of being there.
STEVE: well, this --
JOHN COX: And anything that transpired while
I was there had nothing to do with my purpose of being
there. And that's the same reason Robert was there.
STEVE: I realize that. See, just like the
Centurion in the Book of Acts, came to do some
arresting but walked away not doing that, but himself
wanting to know --
JOHN COX: Sure.
STEVE: -- and have salvation.
JOHN COX: And don't you think that if Robert
-- And, and I'm certainly not here to put words in your
mouth or to put words in his or anything else, but if I
had been put in the same situation, to assess,
accurately assess whether I felt there was a possible
violation of the law or there wasn't, and I spent that
amount of time there and I went back and I did my
paperwork, obviously, in Robert's mind, he felt that
there was some probable cause because he, he was --
Obviously, he was part of the information that went
into an affidavit for a search warrant. Don't you
O U 3
believe that?
STEVE: Well, I --
JOHN COX: The information that he provided?
STEVE: Well, when it all culminates, it
would have to be like that.
JOHN COX: Sure.
STEVE: He wouldn't have made the choice he
did which --
JOHN COX: Sure.
STEVE: -- surprised me because ~-
JOHN COX: S0 his reason for being there had
absolutely no religious connotation or, or overtones.
STEVE: That is not what he said, though, and
that's He sat there for hours taking --
JOHN COX: We say a lot of things when we're
working in an undercover capacity.
STEVE: And we suspected that could be true.
JOHN COX: Sure.
STEVE: But, still, we love people so much,
you give them the opportunity.
JOHN COX: Oh, sure.
STEVE: Even if it's one out of a million,
even if it's that, whatever it might be, he's still a
person that was made, created by an authority above
himself and we loved the guy. I mean --
JOHN COX: Sure.
I U 4
STEVE: -- we spent enough time with him
where we really got to appreciate the man's character
and personality.
JOHN COX: Well, I know both you, I guess,
and David have said that you'd like to talk to him,
too.
STEVE: Yeah. Well, yeah, I really would.
But, anyway, here's David.
JOHN COX: But it may be a pretty awkward
thing, don't you think?
STEVE: Well, it wouldn't be for me over the
telephone or anything. I don't have any problems.
JOHN COX: Well --
STEVE: I don't have any problems with any
human being.
JOHN COX: - after, after what had happened,
though.
STEVE: Even after that. You could listen
in. It wouldn't matter because I hold nothing -- The
man did his job, his duty as to what he thought.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: I can't judge him. I don't know what
makes him tick or what, what he's all about.
JOHN COX: No, but --
STEVE: I would -- I could -
JOHN COX: - what I mean is he's going
O O 5
through some pretty tough times after that.
STEVE: I'm sure he is. I'm sure he is.
JOHN COX: AS
there are going through
STEVE: John,
speaking with you.
JOHN COX: GO
STEVE: Okay,you and David and the people in
some tough times. And --
Dave's ready to continue
ahead. Go ahead.
here he is. He just wanted to
change positions. If you like, I'll talk to you any
time you'd like, though
JOHN COX: You bet.
STEVE: Okay, here he is.
MR. KORESH: No, you know, that's the thing
people don't understand about us, you know, is that law
enforcement agents are people.
JOHN COX: Yeah, we sure are.
MR. KORESH: They're, they're, they're people
just like anybody else in the world. They're, they're
souls. They, they were born, they were children, they
were raised, they wanted to be, you know, if I didn't
have my job, that's what I would like to have been.
Because, you know, it's
JOHN COX: Are you sure?
MR. KORESH: I'm positive.
JOHN COX: You - Are you really sure you'd
want to do, do that?
I I 6
MR. KORESH: Well, look, what do you guys --
JOHN COX: A lot of frustrating times out
there, huh?
MR. KORESH: Well, I, I realize this, that at
least, you know, you all have a power on earth backing
you that everyone can see.
JOHN COX: Well, sometimes we do.
MR. KORESH: Right.
JOHN COX: Sometimes we do. And it's
difficult to accept it sometimes when you're out there
all on your -- you're out alone and you have to make a
decision and then somebody can sit back for years and
criticize the decision you made.
MR. KORESH: Well, I honestly, I honestly
believe that Robert -- I believe that he didn't expect
would happen. I believe that he didn't want to signal
or cause to happen what he happened that morning. If
he did --
JOHN COX: I'm sure he didn't. I'm sure he
didn't .
MR. KORESH: Cause he --
JOHN COX: No one did, did they? If you were
a policeman, how in the heck would you have handled it,
you know? You said you'd like to have been a law
enforcement officer. How would you try and resolve
this right now as a law enforcement officer?
0 0 ,
MR. KORESH: well, like I said, right now --
JOHN COX: Through communications?
MR. KORESH: What I said right now is this,
is that you know what I know, but I know what you don't
know.
JOHN COX: Well, I don't think so.
MR. KORESH: Okay, that's your, --
JOHN COX: I know what you know.
MR. KORESH: That's your -- No, that's your
opinion.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: And whereas you might say to me
that's my opinion. So now we stand off the two sides
on the side of the line saying one opinion against
another opinion. But that's what we have to see.
JOHN COX: Yeah, yeah. But the bottom line,
if you were, if you were a law enforcement officer, and
hindsight's great and, you know, we could all be Monday
morning quarterbacks --
MR. KORESH: If I was Robert, I would have
said -- I would have gone out and I would have said
look, guys, there's a lot of women and children there
this morning.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: And David just sat down with me.
I brought a newspaper and he sat down with me and he
O Q 8
started opening up the Bible again to me, personal. He
was looking me straight in the eyes and he was
reminding me of what I've shown him and he told me that
he loved me and was concerned about me and that he told
me that they were coming and that I had to do what I
had to do, he'd do what he had to do, and that, you
know, he hoped that, that I would consider everything
I've been shown in the scripture and make the proper
decision.
JOHN COX: Sure.
MR. KORESH: And, you know, and so I think we
need to hold off, I think we need to give him a call, I
think we need to see if he'll come out to us and we can
get this thing discussed and I don't think we need to
run in there like a bunch of cowboys cause that
aggression is going to cause aggression. You know,
these people believe in God and they do not believe in
being pushed over.
JOHN COX: Yet, you nor I know what would
have happened. We can speculate and we can say --
MR. KORESH: No, no, I know what would
happen.
JOHN COX: Yeah, but you're saying that in
hindsight now, see? And what you would have done at
that time is pure conjecture because you don't know
what force you would have seen, whether two people
O Q 9
would have walked up to a door, you know, whether ten
people would have walked up there for fear of being
overwhelmed. And, and that's happened. And, and what
I was, what I was addressing to you was if you had
taken that other path --
MR. KORESH: which other --
JOHN COX: -- as a law enforcement officer,
okay?
MR. KORESH: Um-hum. which is sitting in the
Sheriff's Department out here.
JOHN COX: No, no, no. If you had taken that
other path as opposed to a religious path of life, a
law enforcement path of life, and you were sitting
where I'm sitting and where the law enforcement
community is, how would you address it now, other than
communications? Because what's done is done and, and
communications may not have been handled properly.
MR. KORESH: Well, how should, how should
we --
JOHN COX: Or what -- We're trying to resolve
it now and we're trying to resolve it --
MR. KORESH: Okay. So how should we --
JOHN COX: -- through communicating.
MR. KORESH: -- the American people punish
you for your misuse and misjudgment against innocent
citizens?
I ' 1.
JOHN COX: That's what the judicial system is
all about.
MR. KORESH: How do you, how do you --
JOHN COX: Listen --
MR. KORESH: Now, wait a minute.
JOHN COX: I'm not talking about the criminal
judicial system, I'm talking about the judicial system.
MR. KORESH: Your actions have been criminal
actions.
JOHN COX: Well, that's what the judicial
system's about, whether it's civil litigation or
whether it's criminal litigation. You certainly have
the same rights and privileges as anyone else. You've
got the media.
MR. KORESH: My friend, my friend --
JOHN COX: You've got attorneys.
MR. KORESH: Look, my, my friend --
JOHN COX: Sure.
MR. KORESH: -- let me explain something to
you.
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
MR. KORESH: You know, in 1988 I went through
$68,000 worth, okay?
JOHN COX: Sure.
MR. KORESH: The, the jury wanted to stop the
case after three days. They just happened to, to do
O U 11
something that was very illegal and which I addressed
to my attorney and he, he shunned it off. You see, in
the election of a jury, it's a known standard fact that
no jury member is to be associated by friendship,
especially by relationship, to the prosecuting attorney
or the defense attorney.
JOHN COX: And that's one of the things that
attorneys are supposed to draw out, right?
MR. KORESH: Exactly.
JOHN COX: In the selection process.
MR. KORESH: Exactly. And so what happened
was is that when it was uncovered and stated very
plainly that one of the black members on our -- on the
jury was a, a club member of Chebaz, the prosecuting
attorney, this was continually pushed back and
overlooked. Now, after the, after the court case when
they, when they finally - They acquitted the first
seven and they kept having me in a hung jury. What
happened was is that we had a party.
JOHN COX: Well, they were going to retry
you.
MR. KORESH: Well, they, they weren't and
they couldn't because, as we said before, the charges
were, were fanatic.
JOHN COX: Yeah .
MR. KORESH: Anyway, here's the deal. So, so
I 9 1.
the jury -- When we finally got the jury -- All the
jury members came except three black people.
JOHN COX: That's what I heard. Last night I
think you mentioned that to Henry.
MR. KORESH: Okay. So, you know, and they
said, they said, they said, they said now Vernon, they
said here's the deal. You know, now this is over, we
heard both sides and we, we understood by the second
and third day that everything that was coming against
you boys was, was bogus. we understood that, that,
that for some reason, some way, somebody's trying to
sink you for some reason. We couldn't figure it out.
But the thing of it was is that when we finally was
allowed -- Cause we
witnessing. I mean,
was just --
JOHN COX:
itself?
MR. KORESH:
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH
JOHN COX:had, remember, two weeks of
just crazy stuff. I mean, the DA
You mean prior to the actual trial
Exactly. I mean --
Well, were you, were you --
-- the jury was --
-- satisfied in the, in the way
your attorney represented you?
MR. KORESH: well, he didn't really have to
too much cause it was the -- mainly all prosecution.
JOHN COX: And I'm not saying that in theT
I 9 .3
light that I'm criticizing your lawyer. I don't know
your lawyer from anyone.
MR. KORESH: Oh, Gary, Gary Coker did very
fine, but --
JOHN COX: But, I mean, you're satisfied with
the way he represented you? How come -- Why don't, why
don't you think he realized or was able to draw out
that somebody had a relationship there with the
prosecution? It was just a pretty veiled relationship
or hidden relationship.
MR. KORESH: Well, what it was was it was a
deal dealing with a club membership. And, anyway, and
afterwards - Anyway, let me get my point made.
JOHN COX: Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
MR. KORESH: After the trial, the jury
members that came to the party, we had a big party over
at - They stated to us that, you know, they kept
continuing as they voted, you know, guilty or not
guilty, that, you know, the weight of evidence was that
every one of us was absolutely not guilty, even from
Sheriff Dickerson phonetic sp.!. He did tell us to go
out there, he did tell us that the, the people out
there were dangerous. I mean, he knew something more
about the situation that we didn't know.
JOHN COX: But you just had one person
hanging up.
", " 14
MR. KORESH: Well, no, what happened was is
later on, about a year or two later --
_ JOHN COX: No, I mean at the time that they
were voting.
MR. KORESH: Right.
JOHN COX: At time.
MR. KORESH: No, no, three black people.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: The three black people. And
they kept saying to these black people, they kept
saying now, look, the weight of evidence. well, the
one guy says well, because they went on up there with
guns, that right there shows they were out there to
kill him, so he's guilty.
JOHN COX : Uhhuh .
MR. KORESH: Now, they was out there with
guns. Okay.
JOHN COX: That's a jury of your peers, huh?
MR. KORESH: That's the one, that's the one
thing. The woman kept saying I feels in my heart, I
feels in my heart, I've got to go by my heart.
JOHN COX: Don't be slanderous now.
MR. KORESH: No, that's what they were
telling me.
JOHN COX: Oh, I know that.
MR. KORESH: okay. I mean, let's get
I E l5
realistic. You don't go by your heart when you've got
facts to deal with. Your heart gets you in trouble.
JOHN COX: But we see, we see that happen.
We see it happen in court.
MR. KORESH: All right. Now, now, here's the
thing. The third guy, you know, he went along with the
other guys because based upon the firearms.
JOHN COX: Uhhuh.
MR. KORESH: But I met that other guy down at
the paint and body shop and he kept looking at me like
he recognized me.
JOHN COX: You mean afterwards?
MR. KORESH: Afterwards, right. About a
year-and-a-half, two years later.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: And he says is your name, is
your name Vernon Howell? And I go well, yeah, that's,
that's one of my names. And he goes man, he says, you
know, you don't know me, do you? And I says well, I
think you look familiar. He goes I was one of the, I
was one of the guys on the jury. He says, man, he says
you know, I didn't, I didn't realize that in that
case -- somehow I missed in that case that, that you
all went out there with guns because the Sheriff's
Department told you that there was dangerous people out
there and you went out there to defend yourself.
0 ' 1.
He says, you know, he says and after that
trial was done, he says man, I was real tired all the
time, I was having to work and everything, you know.
Besides that, I didn't -- you know, his regular job and
all that he couldn't go to. He says and it was like,
you know, man, he says and I just -- He says I'm really
sorry about all that. He says if I, if I could have
done it all over again, he says I would vote
differently. He says but this, this one black guy with
the other guy, he says, you know, he got all this extra
information from, from the prosecuting attorney,
Chebaz. Now, that right there -- You're not supposed
to communicate with the jury, you know. And it was
already known that they were friends at a certain club
they were a part of.
And this kind of stuff -- Like I said, eight
guys heavily armed, they say --
JOHN COX: Hey, and that's the best system we
have, huh?
MR. KORESH: well, wait a second. And they
say that our objective was to kill George Roden.
JOHN COX: Sure. Sure, I remember that.
MR. KORESH: I mean, of all the rounds and
the The objective was was to cause a diversion with
the firearms. And all the rounds they picked up, you
know, it's so obvious that no one was out there to fire
0 9 .7
at George and to hurt George. But, anyway, now that's
the situation of today.
JOHN COX: They, they, they never considered
pursuing that prosecution any more, though, did they?
MR. KORESH: Well, they couldn't because, you
see --
JOHN COX: Well, you never say couldn't.
MR. KORESH: No, they, they --
JOHN COX: Knowing the system.
MR. KORESH: No, but they, they can't.
Here's the deal. when we got the property back, I
turned in to the Sheriff's Department stacks --
JOHN COX: Uhhuh.
MR. KORESH: - of literature that we
uncovered from the property that dealt with the
manufacturing and making of methamphetamine.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR . KORESH: Okay .
JOHN COX: Showing some good faith, huh?
MR. KORESH: Well --
JOHN COX: In reality.
MR. KORESH: -- we learned later that it was
a very ignorant move.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Because it was not used in our
case. You see, the system here in Waco --
0 9 1.
JOHN COX: Excuse me. Your, your attorney
couldn't bring it out to your benefit?
MR. KORESH: No. What happened was is that
it was, it was some kind of deadlock in regards to the
collection of evidence.
JOHN COX: Oh, okay.
MR. KORESH: It was to turn in to the
Sheriff's Department. And that, you know, that was
not, that was not the, the - The position they were
trying to say what was being tried. But, of course,
what the real issue was later on is that look, our -
Waco should have been a lot bigger years ago than what
it is, but it's just a known fact that certain, certain
big and higher and ups here in Waco, you know Well,
matter of fact, one of the, one of the feds that came
out here recently that knew the District Attorney, you
know, he said point-blank Waco is registered as one of
the top methamphetamine places in the United States.
The manufacture of it out here is, is greatly
increased. Now they're saying that, that it's --
there's an uprise in cocaine, you know, and, and, plus,
another thing is --
JOHN COX: That guy hasn't been into other
major cities that's making that statement.
MR. KORESH: Do what now?
JOHN COX: I would say that he has not been
O 9 .9
in some other major cities --
MR. KORESH: No, you see, the --
JOHN COX: -- to make that statement.
MR. KORESH: The manufacturing of it out
here, there is a lot of wide open --
JOHN COX: As opposed to the use of it?
MR. KORESH: Well, yeah, exactly. Now, the
thing of it is is that the use -- a lot of the use of
it around here is that a lot of kids around here take
LSD. You know, you've got to remember that I go around
and I used to play in stuff like --
JOHN COX: You mean still?
still use it?
MR. KORESH: They still use
JOHN COX: Really? Cause,
MR. KORESH: Waco is one ofIn this area they
it.
I mean --
the most --
JOHN COX: -- in, in most, in most other
areas it's, it's certainly not the drug of choice of,
of the young kids.
MR. KORESH: Right.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: But, anyway, the keynote is
this. You did wrong.
JOHN COX: You -- Uncle Sam did wrong is what
you're saying, right?
MR. KORESH: I'm saying you did wrong in
I 9 20
allowing a smaller guy to do your job.
JOHN COX: Well, we can't really turn that
around, can we? I think --
MR. KORESH: Now, you're asking me --
JOHN COX: I think what you have to look at,
and maybe you haven't experienced it before and I don't
know, I'm just asking, really, any dealings with the
federal judicial system it's not like a state judicial
system, believe me.
MR. KORESH: Oh, we know.
JOHN COX: I mean, the, the, the courts --
The court meaning the judges - are certainly not the
same. The, the, the atmosphere within a federal
courthouse is totally different, as are, I think, the,
the thoroughness within the federal system. Federal
judicial system is much more thorough and I think
people's rights are explained much more clearly to them
and I think it's like night and day. And I've been in
both and I've been involved in both over the years, and
I think it's a different ballgame, totally different.
And, and I think there's something that,
that, you know, you should understand is --
MR. KORESH: when did, when did, when did the
agents out here loose their rights to be an agent?
JOHN COX: when did they -- I don't - I
mean, I'm not - I don't appreciate what you're, you're
0 9 .1
asking me.
MR. KORESH: I'm saying when did the agents
who got shot out here lose their rights to be an agent?
JOHN COX: I, I don't know what you mean.
I'm not trying to avoid answering you.
MR. KORESH: I know, you misunderstand what
I'm trying to say. Leave things this way.
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
MR. KORESH: when is a, a defense action --
JOHN COX: when are you overstepping your
bounds, is that what - is that --
MR. KORESH: Well, we already know they
overstepped their bounds.
JOHN COX: Well --
MR. KORESH: No doubt about it. I mean, they
were already told --
JOHN COX: That's your, that's your
interpretation of it. Someone else is going to
interpret it some other way.
MR. KORESH: Well, wait a minute. Do you
work for me or do I work for you?
JOHN COX: Neither one.
MR. KORESH: Oh, I see.
JOHN COX: I'm a taxpayer.
MR. KORESH: I see.
JOHN COX: I work for the citizenry. I work
O 9 .2
and I answer to the Constitution.
MR. KORESH: So you're answering the
citizen --
JOHN COX: And I work for you, per se.
MR. KORESH: Now, wait.
JOHN COX: As well as everybody else.
MR. KORESH: Now, wait, wait. Now, you're
working for - You're telling the citizens, the public,
what's going on, but I'm not allowed to.
JOHN COX: I'm not telling the public
anything.
MR. KORESH: I say the ATF, the FBI is
telling the public what's going on.
JOHN COX: Oh, okay, having their press
conferences and their, their dealings with the media.
That's what you're, you're getting to.
MR. KORESH: Right.
JOHN COX: Sure.
MR. KORESH: But I'm not, I'm not able to do
that.
JOHN COX: Yes, you are.
MR. KORESH: No, I'm nOt.
JOHN COX: You are.
MR. KORESH: I am not.
JOHN COX: You want me to give you the, the
way to do it? You know what the way to do it is, don't
I 9 .3
you?
MR. KORESH: I know what your way is.
JOHN COX: No, no, no.
MR. KORESH: But I also know what my way is,
too.
JOHN COX: What?
MR. KORESH: Well, that's what you're fixing
to find out.
JOHN COX: Well, you had one opportunity to
do it, didn't you?
MR. KORESH: Well, what was done at that
point --
JOHN COX: On the tape?
MR. KORESH: What was done at that point --
JOHN COX: And nobody, and nobody was using
any, you know, chicanery or trickery or anything else
there. We, we were pretty straightforward with you --
MR. KORESH: Exactly.
JOHN COX: -- and said that this is your
opportunity to do it. And did we play games about it?
No, we, we gave it to the media, and I think --
MR. KORESH: No, the games were played when
the --
JOHN COX: I think it was accepted, huh?
MR. KORESH: The games were played is when
the violation of promise were being broken in regards
I 9 2.
to the activities taking place around here on the
property, of which the media
JOHN COX: There was something broken before
that.
MR. KORESH: -- of which the - No, that was
not true. No, it was not.
JOHN COX: when you said you were coming out.
MR. KORESH: Well, I'd already said I was
coming out. They had already been violating that
trust.
JOHN COX: No.
MR. KORESH: Yes. Are you here? Are you
seeing these things?
JOHN COX: Am I right out there?
MR. KORESH: Then maybe we can work this out
because when I have to --
JOHN COX: You mean am I physically right out
where you are?
MR. KORESH: -- when I have to tell, when I
have to tell Jim he's a damned liar --
JOHN COX: But you shouldn't have said that.
MR. KORESH: Oh, but I did because it's the
truth.
JOHN COX: N0.
MR. KORESH: when he's telling me one thing,
and I'm looking and seeing another, and he's telling me
25
I'm wrong, he's telling me that my perception and
vision is wrong, then we have to draw a line.
JOHN COX: Well, I'm sure wha t Jim meant was,
and, and I'm not here to put words in Jim's mouth, he
can certainly do that for himself, is t
been miscommunications. There were mis
six days ago, weren't there, and prior
MR. KORESH: which is going t
people killed, right? Something you sa
have to happen, and you're doing everyt
happen.
JOHN COX: I am? Right now?
MR. KORESH: when I say you
JOHN COX: I understand what
MR. KORESH: when I say you,
about you, I'm talking about --
JOHN COX: Law enforcement.
MR. KORESH: - what you say
enforcement of law.
JOHN COX: Sure.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
JOHN COX: I know it's not a
MR. KORESH: Exactly. And I
you're doing your talking and I'm, I'mhat there have
communications
to that time.
0 get more
y you don't want
hing to make it
Or we are?
you're saying.
I'm not talking
is the
personal issue.
mean, you're,
doing my
talking. I'm a mediator and you're a mediator.
JOHN COX: Yeah, but the bott om line is who
26
is it up to? Who is going to have to make the
decision?
MR. KORESH: Well, God is.
JOHN COX: You are.
MR. KORESH: God iS --
JOHN COX: No, you are.
MR. KORESH: -- and you are. No,
JOHN COX: Is that so?God is.
MR. KORESH: Remember, remember, I -
JOHN COX: The bottom line is you're the one
that's going to hear God, right?
MR. KORESH: Yes, I'm the one listening to
God and you're the one listening to the law, your
system.
JOHN COX: And I'm listening to you.
MR. KORESH: That's not true. You're
listening at me and I'm listening at you.
JOHN COX: Well, I'm listening to
not ignoring you, you know. And I'm And
way - And, again, speaking not only for me
system. In my way, I'm trying to do what I
your best interest, in the best interest ofyou. I'm
in my own
but for the
think is in
the people
in there and in the best interest of the people out
here to peacefully, successfully bring this to a
resolution. And, and that's where the conflict lies,
doesn't it? You know, because you have to make up your
U ' .7
mind when you're ready to come out of there.
MR. KORESH: I'm ready right now.
JOHN COX: There's no -- Well, there's no --
MR. KORESH: I, I was ready yesterday. I was
ready the past few days.
JOHN COX: -- there's, there's no question --
See, there's no question in my mind that you're coming
out of there and you're going to lead your flock out of
there.
MR. KORESH: we've got to remember --
JOHN COX: But it's -- The only question is
when.
MR. KORESH: That's the question. Now, we
also --
JOHN COX: Isn't that the bottom line?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, the bottom line is that
you're denying and being -- Okay, look, Psalm 75, King
David was the king, wasn't he? He could kill a person
if he wanted to, couldn't he?
JOHN COX: Sure.
MR. KORESH: He was a political leader,
wasn't he?
JOHN COX: Absolutely.
MR. KORESH: He had a nation backing him.
But, of course, David kind of talks funny. He says, in
Psalm 75 he says when I shall receive the congregation
Q 2s
I shall judge them rightly.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: It says the name of the Lord is
near as wondrous words declare. He says I said to the
fool, fools, deal not foolishly, and to the wicked,
lift not up your horn on high, speak not with a stiff
neck, for promotion comes neither from east nor from
the west nor from the south, but God is the judge for
he sets up one and puts down another. In the hand of
the Lord, there's a cup and the mixture is red. And he
poured not of the same and all the wicked of the earth
will ring the dregs of this cup out and drink them.
All the horns of the wicked shall be cut off.
Now, you probably wouldn't understand that statement
unless you knew about God on the throne, about a lamb,
about a --
JOHN COX: You know what? I would really
have to sit down and, and spend some time to totally
appreciate that statement. I really would. To let it
absorb.
MR. KORESH: It's the same as Psalms 18.
JOHN COX: You know, but I'm, I'm just ~-
MR. KORESH: Talks about God --
JOHN COX: -- I'm just not as well versed as
you are, and I'd be a fool to try and say that I
wasn't. And I'm not here to try and, you know, to
O Q 2.
compete with you on that level.
MR. KORESH: But you're not trying to
understand with me on my level, either, but you --
JOHN COX: Yeah, I am.
MR. KORESH: But you're -- you want me to
understand on your level.
JOHN COX: No, I'm not. I've been, I've
been --
MR. KORESH: Well, definitely. That's why
we're negotiating.
JOHN COX: This isn't give and take.
MR. KORESH: And I agree with you.
Everything you say I agree with you. You know? And,
and according to my carnality, I would more than ever
love to be able to come out and to, and to go ahead and
go through the system, whatever the system wants me to
go through, to be able to resolve this situation. A
lot would be learned out of this.
JOHN COX: Sure it Will.
MR. KORESH: I'm so sad that people got hurt.
I'm so sad that things had to happen like this.
JOHN COX: Well, don't you think I am? And
saying I. We are?
MR. KORESH: Well, I, I think you've learned
a great lesson out of this, hopefully.
JOHN COX: I don't want to see anybody get
' ' 30
hurt. You know, I'd like to be able to say I went
through an entire career, and it's been over 31 years
so far, that no one has been hurt. But sometimes it
just doesn't work out that way, does it?
MR. KORESH: Sometimes we have to be checked
sometimes, and by getting hurt on the things we don't
properly keep in fit, you know. When you don't, when
you don't chain your bicycle chain, we don't think keep
things in check, we don't make sure things work
smoothly, then sometimes things break. We get hurt.
JOHN COX: You know, basically, when, when I
said that, you know, you're the person that's going to
make the decision, and, and there's no question in my
mind that you're coming out of there --
MR. KORESH: what's your, what's your name
again?
JOHN COX: John.
MR. KORESH: John, let me explain something.
JOHN COX: And, and that --
MR. KORESH: Do you believe --
JOHN COX: Let me just finish and then go
ahead. It's, it's that I believe you are coming out
and you are going to lead your flock out there because
you've got children out here that, that certainly want
to see their mothers and fathers again. And, and, and
I know it's going to happen. But when, when I ask you
0 9 .1
to be responsible and to lead these people, you just
keep passing the buck back to me and start preaching to
me.
MR. KORESH: Wait, wait a minute, wait a
minute, John. Wait.
JOHN COX: Go ahead, get comfortable.
MR. KORESH: Wait a minute. I had to cough.
When I cough, it's like someone --
JOHN COX: And, and understand, I'm not
saying this in an argumentative mood.
MR. KORESH: John, would you listen to me?
For Godness sake, look, I just told you when I cough --
I've got a hole in my back, all right?
JOHN COX: Go ahead. Go ahead.
MR. KORESH: I mean, for crying out loud, I
didn't want to, I didn't want to put you away, but I've
just got to catch my breath here a second. Okay, now,
preaching to you. All right, you want to call it
preaching. Okay, let me lay some things straight then.
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
MR. KORESH: I'm not preaching to you, I'm
promising you.
JOHN COX: What are you promising?
MR. KORESH: I'm promising you that a book
you don't know is going to take you by surprise, unless
you humble yourself and you stop and think to ask
0 9 .2
yourself just maybe there might be a chance this man
just might be real.
JOHN COX:
to humble myself?
the fear o
the fear o
with you.
me.
God.
don't know
Ghost.MR. KORESH
f God.
JOHN COX:
f God?
MR. KORESH
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH
the last
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESHYou mean - How humble do I have
: First of all, you need to learn
You don't think I, I appreciate
: No, you don't know what it is.
Well, that's where I beg to differ
: Well, seven seals, explain it to
I can't do that.
: Okay, you don't know the fear of
But I do because I, I --
: You know the way you know. You
I'm a god-fearing person.
: which god?
The Father, the Son and the Holy
: Now, wait a minute. The Father
sits on the throne and he's got a book with seven
seals. Prove it to me --
O 0 .3
JOHN COX: Don't start rattling to me now.
MR. KORESH: Prove it to me you
you're talking about.
JOHN COX: Why do I have --know what
MR. KORESH: What's the word of God?
JOHN COX: why do I have to prove it to you?
MR. KORESH: Oh, because I know you're not of
my spirit if you don't know. we say we know and
testify we do. And you openly state you don't. Now,
we're definitely two opposites.
JOHN COX: Do, do I have to prove my
religious beliefs to someone on a daily basis?
MR. KORESH: If you're calling me a brother,
you've got to prove it.
JOHN COX: No, I don't have to do that.
MR. KORESH: Remember, there's the sons of
God and the sons of the devil. Remember that.
JOHN COX: I just - I, I truly
we are all the children of God, no matter
religious beliefs are, as long as they're
MR. KORESH: Christ says to the
JOHN COX: - antagonistic.
MR. KORESH: Christ says to thebelieve that
what our, our
not --
people -
people in
this day your father's the devil. Now, boy, what kind
of Christ is that? .
JOHN COX: Well, it's not the way I look at1
I U .4
it.
MR. KORESH: Ahhh. Groaning with pain.!
Ohhh, I guess I'm being punished for talking so rough
to you.
JOHN COX: Hey, just calm down.
MR. KORESH: Ohhh. Oh, boy, I tell you what.
Okay, but, you know, Christ does make a distinction
between the sons of God and the sons of Satan.
JOHN COX: Sure.
MR. KORESH: So, anyway, let's hope that we
all have ears to hear, and I'm listening to you and
we're speaking --
JOHN COX: And we're going to work it out.
MR. KORESH: -- from the heart.
JOHN COX: You know that, don't you? It's
going to work out.
MR. KORESH: Yeah. So, like I say, you put
faith in my God and I'll put faith in your God and
let's see these two guys work this out.
JOHN COX: Let me, let me ask you a couple of
things. One is we've been getting a lot of inquiries
and, and I know it's been mentioned to you before from
not only the media, but from people calling in. And,
and they've been calling in not just to the FBI, but
to, to the -- to ATF and I guess to other people, too,
about trying to either relay messages to loved ones
O 9 35
that are there with you or to determine the, the status
of them. And what I'm talking about that is are they
healthy, are they --
MR. KORESH: Are they dead?
JOHN COX: Are they okay?
MR. KORESH: Like we just found one that's
dead. we've been wondering where he was
JOHN COX: Yeah .
MR. KORESH: -- and we found him and you all
won't come and pick him up like you promised. You
wanted to get him out.
JOHN COX: But --
MR. KORESH: You lied.
JOHN COX: I'm not lying to you and no one,
no one else is lying to you. It's just --
MR. KORESH: Why do you call it then?
JOHN COX: It's going to have to be worked
out safely. And, and I'll --
MR. KORESH: Let me, let me get my dictionary
out and put another word in there next to the word
"lie" 'cause what --
JOHN COX: Hang on just a minute. We're not
lying. I'd, I'd love to have that person removed from
there. And, and the people that I'm answering to I
think would like to resolve it, but what they would
like is for someone to accompany that body. And I
9 V 3.
think --
MR. KORESH: Nobody trusts you.
JOHN COX: And I think that can be worked
out.
MR. KORESH: Nobody trusts you yet.
JOHN cox; Why?
MR. KORESH: Because they know what they
believe and they believe what they know. Otherwise,
they'll come out to you. Two ladies already trusted
you because, you know, they trusted Jim.
JOHN COX: Yeah? They're no worse for the
wear. Nor are the children that trusted and came out.
They didn't just trust me, they trusted you --
MR. KORESH: The children come out --
JOHN COX: -- to come out here.
MR. KORESH: The children came out because,
first of all --
JOHN COX: You made the selection which
children would come out and they trusted you and they
trusted your --
MR. KORESH: The children --
JOHN COX: - faith in me, in us.
MR. KORESH: -- are not accountable as of yet
for knowing faith, the principle of knowing and
understanding God's will through his word.
JOHN COX: But they've listened --
O U .7
MR. KORESH: They do not have that.
JOHN COX: -- to you, haven't they? They've
listened to your sermons.
listen to
aren't my
listen to
my house?MR. KORESH: Just as your children will
you as the father in your house.
JOHN COX: Well, sure.
MR. KORESH: You have to --
JOHN COX: But what about the children that
own immediate flesh and blood? Do they all
me and respect me that, that come visit me in
N0.
MR. KORESH: Absolutely not.
JOHN COX: They may nod as they're coming
through, right?
MR. KORESH: To give you the respect due that
they should.
JOHN COX: Well, that's true, that's true.
And, and the issue that you raise about the situation
where we have somebody outside, you know, s0mebody's
out there that we'd like to remove, I'm being very
sincere with you in saying that I was told that if we
can have someone accompany that body that body will be
removed. And I can't make it any clearer, any more
distinct than that that that will happen.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Then here's the answer.
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
" I, 38
MR. KORESH: No.
JOHN cox: Why?
MR. KORESH: Because the same reasons that
you make a statement, I make a statement. You are
showing that you by the previous statement have lied,
just as you have been able to publicize to all United
States that I have lied. Jim said, after I presented
to him where I was coming from, that he believed that I
was true.
JOHN COX: Oh, is that wrong?
MR. KORESH: Well,
at? He said he was going to
the end.
JOHN COX: N0, I'm
him to believe what you said
you told him, you know, I'll
present this tape, we'll put
tape goes out over the air Iask Jim now. Where's Jim
stay with me through to
saying was it wrong for
to him was the truth, when
make this tape, we'll
the tape over the air, the
m coming_out --
MR. KORESH: You're talking about --
JOHN COX: Was it wrong for him to accept
that as being truthful?
MR. KORESH: You're talking about, you're
talking about number 75 to 100. I'm talking about
numbers 1 to 75.
JOHN COX: What, what are you talking about?
MR. KORESH: Well, I'm saying that in a
i, 39
conversation which you knew nothing about --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- you know, the first two or
three days, things were established, things were --
JOHN COX: Ground rules.
MR. KORESH: Yes. And consistently there
began to be a violation and, realistically, the way I
got this information that I offer is the way that you
wouldn't believe though I told it to you. And I --
JOHN COX: well, maybe someday you will.
MR. KORESH: I am subject to God first and to
you second.
JOHN cox: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Now, as far as everything --
JOHN COX: I'm not going to argue that with
you.
MR. KORESH: As far as everything you said, I
agree with you. I agree, I want to come out because,
you know, my soul is in the hand of God. I am not
worried about that.
JOHN COX: Sure.
MR. KORESH: If I have done wrong in your
sight, then you will be the judge. Only God can
overthrow your judgments. Only the living God can make
right what man has done wrong.
JOHN COX: Um-hum.
O U .0
MR. KORESH: You know, the innocent crying to
God and commit their soul to God. Okay. Now, when it
comes down to what I'm trying to say, you do not
believe me. You think that I'm sitting back here in my
own mind saying oh, I'm scared, I want to go out.
JOHN COX: I don't think you're scared at
all.
MR. KORESH: You know, you --
JOHN COX: I really, truly do not think
you're scared at all. You know, I think you've got a
lot of willpower, a lot of stamina, and you've got very
strong beliefs. And I don't think you're afraid. I
think that you have told me that you're waiting to hear
a voice to tell you how you're going to react.
MR. KORESH: That's what I --
JOHN COX: I accept that. I accept that
you're going to hear that voice.
MR. KORESH: You believe that the prophets of
old had visions?
JOHN COX: Do I believe that the prophets had
visions?
MR. KORESH: Right.
JOHN COX: Well, sure. Do you think I can
have a vision? Let me ask you that. Do you think I
can?
MR. KORESH: who sits on the throne?
O Q .1
JOHN COX: You're not answering my question.
MR. KORESH: Well, based upon --
JOHN COX: Can I have a vision?
MR. KORESH: Based upon --
JOHN COX: And I'm not being a smart aleck
with you. I'm asking you a candid question. Do you
think I can have a vision?
MR. KORESH: Well, I know that you can but --
JOHN COX: That's right. That's the answer
to the question.
MR. KORESH: Wait, wait, wait. I would
question by what source it came.
JOHN cox: why?
MR. KORESH: Because if you're a servant of
God, the vision would come by God. So, if you're a
servant of God --
JOHN COX: That's because I believe in
prayer, though.
MR. KORESH: Okay. So, if you're a servant
of God, show me the seven seals, my friend.
JOHN COX: I can't do that.
MR. KORESH: Then you're not a servant of
God. You don't -- You lack the credentials. I would
like to give you the credentials.
JOHN COX: And I'm not going to debate you
over that, but I can certainly have a vision, can't I?
I Q .2
MR. KORESH: Um-hum.
JOHN COX: Through prayer and through other
things I can have them.
MR. KORESH: Remember, there'
the world, too.
JOHN COX: And I'm not going
with you. It's, it's how we interpret
and I interpret that you're not afraid.
may think that I think you're afraid.
you're afraid, I think you're a man, a
god-fearing man and that when the time
you hear what you say you have to hears also God of
to argue that
things. And,
I mean, you
I don't think
man of God and a
comes and when
that I will see
you again, and it's going to be right here in Texas
outside that compound, and that we will meet and you
and Henry and Jim and Dick --
MR. KORESH:
JOHN COX:
are. About six feet.
MR. KORESH:
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH:
JOHN COX:
pounds more than you
kind of a traumatic -
truth or can I fudgeHowtall are you?
Probably not any taller than you
And
How
Huh?
How
Well,that's --
much do you weigh?
much do you weigh?
I, I probably weigh a couple
do right now. You've been through
YOUwant me to tell you the
a little on my weight? You know,
women never tell their weight, either, do they?
O U .3
MR. KORESH: Okay.
JOHN COX: Okay. That's kind of a testy
question. But, no, I think we're going to see one
another and I truly believe that. And I hope you do.
MR. KORESH: I believe it.
JOHN COX: And, and I hope you'll get --
MR. KORESH: I hope for it.
JOHN COX: And I hope that we're going to
resolve this through the judicial system.
MR. KORESH: Definitely, it's the judgment --
JOHN COX: Because you and I and every
citizen have the same rights under the Constitution.
The same rights under the Constitution. And I don't
want to have my rights violated, nor should you want
your rights to be violated. And where do we get this
resolved? Through the judicial process. And as we
both said earlier, it may not be the greatest but it's
the best we've got, huh?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, it's the best in the
world. Honest to God, it's the best in the world.
JOHN COX: Sure it is.
MR. KORESH: And I sure would like to have
this nation take the opportunity to, to take a hint
from an authority above and beyond them to, to sit down
and get on our knees and admit to God they don't know
the seals before they end up being in trouble they
can't get out of. I know we're living in awesome
right now. Awesome times.
JOHN COX: And it's, and it's
have that, that feeling that you may be
you can't get out of, but you can. You
don't mean you as an individual, you as
all can get out of difficult situationsdifficult
someplace
can. And44
times
to
that
I
a group, but we
Now, maybe we
have to pray sometimes to resolve it, you know.
There's nothing like prayer, is there? You know it and
I know it.
MR. KORESH: Well, if God wants us to hear
what he wants to say right now, the prayer line's kind
of been closed to a large degree because, like I say --
JOHN COX: Yeah, but too many people aren't
willing to do it, are they? To pray?
MR. KORESH: No, not too much
JOHN COX: There is that --
MR. KORESH: They don't know how to pray
JOHN COX: - supreme being up there.0
MR. KORESH: They don't know what they should
pray for. They don't know what's on the agenda.
JOHN COX: Well, they ought to pray to get a
little grace to do things right, huh?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, like "Our Father who Art
in Heaven", that's one of the prayers.
JOHN COX: Nothing wrong with it.
0 O .5
MR. KORESH: "Hallowed be thy name, thy
kingdom come." Let's meet his law, his will, "Thy will
be done," whatever his will is, "on earth as it is in
heaven." Well, we know the last will of God is the
revelation of Christ's seven seals, don't we? But, of
course, some people don't care
they?to know that will, do
JOHN COX: They really don't, do they?
MR. KORESH: No.
JOHN COX: No. And, and it's a shame. And,
and it's probably people like you and, and others that,
that can have some positive effect on these people, you
know, to, to try and get them to understand. And, and
we all have a different way of
the bottom line is I know that
there and you know that you're
And it's only a matter of timegoing about it, but the,
you're coming out of
coming out of there.
and then the mothers
will be with the children and the fathers will be with
the children. And --
MR. KORESH: Now, come on, not all of them.
JOHN COX: No, they won't.
MR. KORESH: Some of US -
JOHN COX: I'd be a fool to tell you that
they all will.
MR. KORESH: Exactly. So let's --
JOHN COX: And I'm, I'm --
I U .6
MR. KORESH: Let's put our prayers in and --
JOHN COX: But I'm not lying to you.
MR. KORESH: I know. I believe you.
JOHN COX: You know? But the system that we
have gives you a pretty good chance because you get to
tell your side of the story and you get to bring your
facts out and you get to bring your witnesses out. And
a jury of your peers gets to listen to that. And you
can bring in, literally, any statement, any evidence,
anything you want before the court of law. And if
you're not satisfied with the judicial -- the results
of the initial judicial proceedings, we've got an
appellate system, and it goes on and on.
Plus, you have the opportunity to speak to
the media, and I'll guarantee you that
MR. KORESH: The best in the world.
JOHN COX: - that it will work. If you come
out of there, you will be allowed to speak to the
media, and that's something you want to do, isn't it?
MR. KORESH: well, the media, like I say,
they're - they've got a story they want to publish.
JOHN COX: Oh, yeah, they all want to be the
first, too, don't they? Huh?
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.
JOHN COX: Whether it's writing a book,
putting a movie together, or, or hitting the, hitting
O U .7
the print. But --
MR. KORESH: Oh -
JOHN COX: -- I don't think I would be
overstepping my bounds to tell you that when you come
out of there you will be given the opportunity --
MR. KORESH: What's --
JOHN COX: -- to speak to the media.
MR. KORESH: Okay, yeah. One second.
What's --
JOHN COX: And that's an important thing.
MR. KORESH: Right. Steve, what was that
actor's name, Mel what?
STEVE: Mel Gibson.
MR. KORESH: Mel Gibson. I want Mel Gibson
to play my part.
JOHN COX: You've got a good sense of humor,
huh?
MR. KORESH: Well, he's, he's --
JOHN COX: He's a piece of work.
MR. KORESH: He's crazy, isn't he?
JOHN COX: You know, he is a piece of work.
The other thing I think that you have to remember, and,
and I haven't heard it mentioned in, in the several
days that I've been here, is that you are presumed
innocent until convicted in a court of law.
MR. KORESH: Laughing.! I was presumed
I I .8
guilty back --
JOHN COX: No, no, no.
MR. KORESH: Come on now.
JOHN COX: You may have been presumed guilty
by somebody. Do you think the media has presumed you
guilty?
MR. KORESH: Come on, people are dead around
here because of my presumption of being guilty of
something.
JOHN COX: No. Do you think the media has
presumed that?
MR. KORESH: Have you ever heard of a
National Gun Rights Association and the movie The ATF:
Breaking the Law in the Name of the Law"? Have you
ever seen that movie?
JOHN COX: I doubt it.
MR. KORESH: Oh, you should watch it. It's
got even --
JOHN COX: I really like to watch
documentaries and things of humor more than anything
else.
MR. KORESH: Well, no, no, this, this, this
is funny.
JOHN COX: I don't like all that shoot em up
stuff.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, but it happens. So you
O O .9
wouldn't turn your back on it. Anyway --
JOHN COX: No, I don't.
MR. KORESH: -- look, I've got to move again
and I've got to get this bowl of soup. I haven't been
able to -- Every time I take a drink of it, it makes me
cough and I get kicked in the back again.
JOHN COX: Let me, let me ask you something.
And, and maybe, and maybe you need to take a little
break, huh? How, how can, how can we resolve the issue
where these people are calling in and they're asking
questions about their loved
the names of -- And I'll be
not only of the people that
there, but the names of theones? If, if I give you
happy to give you the names
are presumed to be in
people that are asking
about them. Do you think you could give me some
answers?
MR. KORESH: Well, sure. If, if Oliver and
Elizabeth, the Gyarfas, are
yet --over here from Australia
JOHN COX: I can't tell you off the top of my
head.
MR. KORESH: Well, now --
JOHN COX: But I'll be happy to try to find
out.
MR. KORESH: -- I know they're coming. I
know they're coming. I know they'll be coming.
O I 50
JOHN COX: Somebody'll --
MR. KORESH: Tell them that - You know, they
are the --
JOHN COX: Oliver and Elizabeth. Give me the
last name, will you?
MR. KORESH: Gyarfas.
JOHN COX: How do you spell it?
MR. KORESH: It's, it's Hungarian.
JOHN COX: Sure. I'll just put it down
phonetically.
MR. KORESH: Anyway, you know, they, they
have, they have a granddaughter and there's another one
expected here shortly.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: So, you know, there's a, there's
a, there's a young lady here that'll be having a
baby --
JOHN COX: What's her name?
MR. KORESH: -- sometime. Her name is Isha.
JOHN COX: Isha? Like IS-HA?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, Isha. It's like the
biblical Isha.
JOHN COX: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Isha.
JOHN COX: And she is their what?
MR. KORESH: She's here now.
betweenJOHN COX:
hem? She's
MR. KORESH
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH
eighth month.
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH
JOHN COX:
MR. KORESH:
JOHN COX:U .1
No, no, she's what relationship
their daughter?
She's their daughter, yeah.
Okay. Okay. She's all right?
Oh, yeah, she's fine.
How, how, how far gone is she?
I think she's what, in her
Really?
Something like that.
Really?
Yeah.
And she's, she's doing okay, huh?
Yeah.
Because I'm being serious with
you, I want to let these people know. You know, I
think they've got a right to know. I mean, they're
concerned, you know, and a lot of people have gone
through an awful lot, you know, on both sides here.
And it's, and it's not comfortable for anyone. Let me
ask you something else. You mentioned early on about
the sandbox. Well, what, what's the sandbox? I jotted
down a little note and it went right on by.
them.MR. KORESH: Call, call your generals and ask
JOHN COX: Oh, we don't have generals. You
I I 5.
know that.
MR. KORESH: Well, call your bosses and
say --
JOHN COX: Well, we have those.
MR. KORESH: say bosses, sandbox, no, no.
JOHN COX: Oh. I mean, I'm, I'm asking you.
MR. KORESH: See, this, this, this is a code
word from the camp. Sandbox, no, no.
JOHN COX: I mean, are you addressing the
entire facility as the sandbox?
MR. KORESH: No, I'm addressing the sandbox,
which is the children's sandbox.
JOHN COX: Oh, really?
MR . KORESH: Yeah .
JOHN COX: I mean, I'm asking you candidly
because --
MR. KORESH: well, I'm saying, I'm saying to
you -
JOHN COX: They, they do have a sandbox out
there. That's what you're saying?
MR. KORESH: Yeah. Every ATF agent knows.
JOHN COX: Well, I don't. I wouldn't have
asked, I really wouldn't.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, just simply send a
message sandbox no, no.
JOHN COX: Okay. Okay. Don't let any kitty
litter in there, either, huh?
End of Tape #61.!
I kl 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #62
3/5/93 3/6/93
10:12 P.M. 12:15 A.M.
O I1
Tape 62!
DAVID: -- about it. She doesn't want to go
but --
JOHN: But do you have, do you have
everything that you need to, to hopefully do it
successfully?
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: You have medication and stuff like
that?
DAVID: Yeah. I mean, when it, when it
comes, when it comes down, if we're still here,
hopefully we're not, if it comes down, then a quick
call to you and a quick call to, you know --
JOHN: You've got it.
DAVID: -- a unit, you know, a doctor or
something like that if something will be requiring.
And I don't want any slow poke and I don't want any
kind of let's work a deal kind of stuff. Then I will
get mad.
JOHN: No, you know better than that, huh?
Now, let, let me ask you something else. Last night
when you were talking to Henry, you were mentioning an
Antonio Munoz who apparently was, was pretty close to
you.
DAVID: Oh, I loved that man.
JOHN: In your youth, huh?2
I
I U 3
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: Is he still with us?
DAVID: He's alive, yeah.
JOHN: Is he? Where?
DAVID: He, he lives down in Saxony, near
Saxony, Texas. The last he also, he also had
property in Plano. Now, the Munoz family, they were,
they were some, you know, devout Catholics that when I
used to, you know, when I used to go around and, you
know, evangelize, you know, just go in the streets and
stuff like that, I used to live in my car.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: You know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a
carpenter, I build homes, I'm a mechanic.
JOHN: Yeah. I heard last night you're a
pretty good finish carpenter, huh?
DAVID: Right. Used to, used to work with
Floyd Hair in Floyd's Hair Construction Company. We
used to do all kinds of Indiscernible! and stuff like
that. And, you know, used to back in, back in the
seventies and early eighties you had a lot of the
developments around Dallas, especially the Innwood
area, Duck Creek and all that. He built a lot of real
nice upper middle class homes, cause we also did
building for Beverly Harris, too, which was -- in those
days, a house could cost you, you know, 600,000,
O U 4
$700,000, and today the same home would -- well, I
don't know since --
JOHN: It depends where, where in the country
you're living, too, right? They've had their ups and
downs.
DAVID: Yeah, I know, but back in the -- when
the Permian Basin was here pumping oil --
JOHN: Things were flying high.
DAVID: Yeah. I mean, that, that home could
be, you know, a million dollar home right now. But,
but now I don't know. I think the real estate -- I
know it came down in California.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: But, you know, what we used to do --
JOHN: well, he wasn't in the construction
business himself, was he?
DAVID: Antonio Munoz?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: Yeah, he did tile setting.
JOHN: Oh, did he?
DAVID: He had a tile company.
JOHN: Uhuh.
DAVID: You know, Munoz Tile Company.
JOHN: He still does, do you think? Or is he
retired probably now?
DAVID: I imagine. He, he's probably
O I 5
retired, but he still probably works.
JOHN: How old a fellow do you think he'd be?
DAVID: Oh, he's -- right now he's least way
in his sixties.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But, you know, he, he --
JOHN: Just a good old, good old man, huh?
DAVID: Yeah, a guy that came from Mexico
years and years ago, started with nothing and ended up
with I'd say at least a million dollars worth of
assets, if not more.
JOHN: Did he really?
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: Wow.
DAVID: But he used to tell me, he used to --
he had a little, he had a little shrine in his den, you
know --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: -- and, you know, the Virgin Mary and
everything over there, and he used to say -- I used to
try to give him Bible studies. He used to
say --
JOHN: Laughing.! He was kind of set in his
ways?
DAVID: No, not really.
JOHN: Really?
I U 6
DAVID: He used to say, you know, Vernon, he
says, you know, he says you know like on the Ten
Commandments Moses go up to the mountain, you know, and
he bring down the Ten Commandments? He says all the
people, he says they break, they break the
Commandments.
JOHN: Uh-huh. You're talking like an
Italian now. Get back to the Spanish.
DAVID: All right. He goes - no, but he
didn't talk like hey, now, what you doing, you know.
That's kind of hard for me to get to, anyway. But
he's, he --
JOHN: He was serious about his --
DAVID: He -- his faith was in his works.
JOHN: You know, it's amazing when you, when
you look at somebody like that. They came here with
nothing, didn't they?
DAVID: Right.
JOHN: And he really made something out of
himself.
DAVID: Worked with their hands and saved
their money and, and made something cause they worked.
JOHN: Goes to show you you don't just have
to be academically inclined.
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: You know, and I think that's one of
C O 7
the, the fallacies that's out there today. All these
kids feel they have to go to college and they have to
do this. And not that I would knock it, but there are
so many things you can do with your hands, huh? And
your mind, without --
DAVID: If you have a chance or an avenue for
it.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah. But you've got to get
some prodding sometimes from mom and dad. And that's
why it's --
DAVID: In today's world, though, you do have
to have the education.
JOHN: Yeah, unless you're going to be
mechanically inclined. And then, of course, you need a
mechanical education.
DAVID: well, like I'm a mechanic and --
JOHN: And a, and a pretty good carpenter,
huh?
DAVID: Yeah. You know, I can build just
about anything, but the thing of it is this.
JOHN: Well, that's a talent, though, and
it's a gift.
DAVID: The way the, the way the system works
is -- well, you know I'm a musician, too, you know
that, right?
JOHN: I heard the music last night. Are you
O U 8
going to let me hear some tonight? Huh?
DAVID: I don't think - see, I've only got
just one tape here.
JOHN: Oh, you're kidding me.
DAVID: I don't, I don't think, I don't
think, I don't think you would like this kind of music.
JOHN: I heard it last night.
DAVID: You want to hear some more of it?
JOHN: The guitar?
DAVID: Hear some more of it?
JOHN: Heck, yeah. How come you don't have
any Randy Travis to play for me?
DAVID: I've got that out in my Camaro right
now. Can I crawl out there and get it?
JOHN: Well, I bet we can work something out.
DAVID: Hindsight's twenty-twenty
JOHN: I bet we could work something out.
DAVID: Do you like that, do you like that
song?
JOHN: Yeah. I enjoy country and western.
DAVID: I've got an old Ford Truck and a
chicken box of chicken wings and here I'm looking in
the -- "Digging Up Bones." But I can't think real
good. "Digging up memories better left alone.
Resurrecting memories of a love that's dead and gone."
Yeah, yeah, I love Randy Travis. Man, that guy's
O C 9
great. You know, tell --
JOHN: Who?
DAVID: One day hopefully --
JOHN: Hey, if you want to play some of that
music, I'll listen to it.
DAVID: Well, now, here's the thing, you
know. When I, when I was a child, see, I was raised
just like you were or anybody else. That's one of the
beauties of this final judgment of this world.
JOHN: You mean your dad had a belt and a
hair brush?
DAVID: No hair brush. A belt and a piece of
bailing wire.
JOHN: It works, though, doesn't it?
DAVID: You know --
JOHN: It's got a way of getting your
attention.
DAVID: You tell, you tell my stepdad, Roy
Haldeman phonetic sp.!, if you ever get a chance, I
don't care how many times he whooped me or how hard he
whooped me, you know, I still always loved him.
Because one thing about him was is that, is that he,
he, he may have beat the crap out of me, but he was, he
was right.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: when he, when he told me to do
O 9 1.
something and I failed to do it, I didn't think --
JOHN: How about the times, how about the
times he beat you when they were wrong? I bet you that
happened, too, didn't it?
DAVID: Well, see, that wasn't a beating,
that was just a thump on the head or a boot in the
butt. You know, that was -
JOHN: I got the belt before -- when it was
somebody else's fault and they used - the wrong John
got the blame.
DAVID: Yeah. You better watch your social
workers.
JOHN: That's not real comfortable.
DAVID: They'll put your parents in jail, you
know. I mean, you know --
JOHN: Hey, it's all going to work out all
right, though, huh? Listen, can, can I ask you a
favor?
DAVID: Sure.
JOHN: I really would like to, to go review
the, the list of the people that have been calling in
and the people they've been asking about and, and call
you back in a little bit.
DAVID: Okay, then call me back then.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: Okay, I'll talk to you in a little
0 0 .2
STEVE: Yeah. Just a moment. I'll go see
if, you know, if he's sleeping or whatever. Just a
moment, let me look.
JOHN: Give him a little nudge.
Pause!
STEVE: I asked him a few questions, but
there's no response. I can hear --
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE: Yeah, I just asked a question. I
said hello, David, you know, and I said --
JOHN: He didn't say hello, Steve?
STEVE: No. It's just it's kind of quiet
over there right now. I think he how long what
time was it that he quit? How long ago was it? I
didn't even look --
JOHN: I don't know, an hour-anda-half ago.
I had to go get -- he was going to get some -- I think
he said he was going to go get some soup and have some
soup and I said I'll go see if I can get these names
and things and I'll call him back, and he said fine,
give me a call back as soon as
STEVE: Okay. Yeah,
notice there's a bowl. I just
notice the bowl is there, so -
JOHN: Go see if you
the grim reaper's on the otheryou get them.
he had the soup. I
came back here and I
can -- go tell him that
end of the phone here.
9 9 .3
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: It won't be long. You know, he'll be
able to sack out.
STEVE: What time do you have there? What
time is it, about?
JOHN: Eleven thirty-eight.
STEVE: Eleven thirty-eight, okay.
JOHN: I won't take more than 10, 15 minutes
of his time.
STEVE: Okay, just hang on.
JOHN: Thanks.
Pause!
STEVE: I made a few statements, but --
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE: I just made a few statements to him.
He doesn't respond. So he must be -- I talked to him
about medium --
JOHN: About what?
STEVE: I talked to him about medium volume,
you know, I didn't yell or anything, but --
BIISWGISJOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- normally, he can hear me.
JOHN: Well, maybe you can give me some
STEVE: It's possible, it's possible.
JOHN: what I've got is some people that have
I U 11
bit.
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:Is that all right?
Fine.
Okay.
Okay, bye.
Bye bye.
**i<**
Hello?
Hey, Steve?
Yes.
John Cox.
John, how's it going?
Good. Good.
That's good.
Getting a little late.
Yeah, it is a little late.
Listen, I, I mentioned to David that
he was going to get something to eat and I was going to
try and get some - a list here that I was aware that
some people had called about folks on the inside and he
said go ahead and, and give him a call back and --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN:
them.- we can see if we can verify some of
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: Is, is he around?
called
that are
they are
tell you
inquired
them hey
himself
to talk
guess it
the spel
say phonO 9 1.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: - and they're concerned about people
apparently in there. I mean, I don't know if
in there or they're not in there, but I, I can
who called and I can tell you who they
about so that we can give them a call and tell
, they're all right, you know. And he asked
about one. That's why I thought he would want
to me, because he brought up the name of one.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: He asked if the parents of Aisha --I
's AI-S-HA - and, and neither one of us had
ling of the last name. It's, I don't know, I'd
etic GYAR-FU-S, Gyarfus, Gyarfus.
STEVE: That sounds pretty close.
JOHN: That's the best I can do.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: He asked if her parents, who he said
their name were - was Oliver and Elizabeth, were here,
and, and
Australi
understohe related that they were either from
a, New Zealand, something like that. He
od they were coming up here. I have had no
contact with them and I can't seem to find anyone that
has, but
talked tthat doesn't mean that they may not have
o the local Sheriff's Department here or
9 ' .5
somebody like that, you know. So, I, I can't give him
an answer, whether they're here or they're not here,
you know, to pass that on to her.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: If she's in there.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: Is there someone by that name in
there?
STEVE: Yes, there is.
JOHN: Okay. Well, I'll pursue that from
this end to see if I can find them, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Now, we had Melinda Gaynem phonetic
Sp.! --
STEVE: No, that name --
JOHN: - call regarding a David Thibodeau.
Now, where I'm from, that's spelled
THIB-ODEAU.
STEVE: That sounds correct.
JOHN: In some places, they have an X on it.
STEVE: No, I believe, I believe your
spelling is the way his is as I recall seeing it.
JOHN: Okay. He's in there and he's okay?
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN: Good. Just make a little note here,
okay. And we had a Lynn David Josephson call about
Q 9 1.
Barbara Reed, Leanne David Josephson and a William
Grady Josephson. And Lynn, who called, is from
Oklahoma, Wynnewood, Oklahoma.
STEVE: Really? Now, I don't know who that
would be. Let me see if somebody here knows.
JOHN: I don't have whether it's a mother,
father, sister. I don't have any of that, but --
STEVE: So their name again -
JOHN: She called from Oklahoma
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: -- concerning the welfare of a Barbara
Reed who I presume may be in her early to mid-thirties.
STEVE: Barbara Reed. Boy. That I don't --
JOHN: I'll just put a question mark there,
okay?
STEVE: Okay, cause I thought I probably
knew the majority, but just a moment.
JOHN: Okay. Are you --
Pause!
STEVE: No one responded to that at all.
JOHN: Okay. Though I imagine most of the
people are asleep, huh?
STEVE: Yeah, they are. There's a good share
of them, anyway.
JOHN: Okay. Now, that, that Lynn Josephson
that called called about a Barbara Reed, Leanne David
"' I, 17
Josephson, and William Grady Josephson.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: And, and whether Leanne is a child or
an adult, I don't know, and whether William Grady is a
child or an adult, I don't know.
STEVE: Uhhuh.
JOHN: But she called about three people, a
Barbara Reed and two Josephsons, and her name is
Josephson. So I just don't have that information.
STEVE: I've never heard that name before.
JOHN: Okay. You think you might be able to
check in the morning or something?
STEVE: Yeah, for sure.
JOHN: Okay. Now, Lonnie Little from
Kalamazoo, Michigan, called about Jeff Little.
STEVE: Okay. He's yes, he's here.
JOHN: He's there and he's okay?
STEVE: Uhhuh.
JOHN: All right. And Ursula Gehrman,
GEH-R-MA-N, from Hawaii called about a Margueritia,
Margueritia Vaga.
STEVE: Right, Margueritia.
JOHN: Vaga.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: Yeah, just a little different way of
spelling Marguerita.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:9 1.
Apparently so.
Vaga, is that correct?
That's correct.
She's there?
Right.
Okay? She's okay?
Right.
Okay. A Diana McClintock from Alabama
called about a Catherine Madison. Now, I believe
that's one of the women that's already out, right?
STEVE: You've got that. That's, that's
correct.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
Moser, I couldn'
daughter Sherry
STEVE
here, also.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
mother,Isn't that correct?
Uh-huh.
Okay. And we had either a Mr. or Mrs.
t tell you which, called about their
Jewel.
Okay. Yeah, she was here -- she is
She's okay?
Yeah.
Okay. Darren Borst called about his
Mary Jean Borst, B-O-R-ST.
STEVE: That's correct.
JOHN: Okay. She's okay?
STEVE: Yes.
0 9 .9
JOHN: Okay. Barry Craddock called about a
- Graeme Leonard Craddock.
STEVE: Let, let me ask about him, okay?
JOHN: Okay. And I've got G-R-A-E-M-E '
Leonard Craddock. And that's some - probably someone
from Australia.
STEVE: That sounds about right.
JOHN: Cause that's where this person called
from.
STEVE: Okay. Let, let me check on that.
Just a moment.
Pause!
STEVE: Boy, there's no one responding to me
at all, but I believe that he is, he is here and okay.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay. Now --
STEVE: I might have to redo just a few of
these in the morning.
JOHN: Okay. We'll, we'll go back in the
morning, but we had three people call, a Ray Jackson
and an Anthony Greenwood and a Joe and Helen Martin,
all called about Douglas Wayne Martin and Sheila
Martin.
STEVE: Okay, yes, they're here.
JOHN: They're there? And they're okay?
"' " 20
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN: Okay. Okay. And an Irma Fotta,
Fotta, called about a Paul Fotta and a Kalani Fotta.
STEVE: I'm not sure now where they are.
There's a few that I'm not, I'm not real certain.
JOHN: Okay. All right. Now, what I would
like, and if you can work it out in the morning
sometime --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: - is for those people, for me to just
say hello to them.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And I can then make a call to these
people and say hey, I have spoken to your --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- you know, mother, father, sister,
brother, daughter, yes, they are fine. And, and I
think that'll give them a lot of, a lot of hope, you
know.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And I will try to find out whether or
not Aisha's parents are here.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Was, was David all right tonight? He
didn't sound as good tonight as when I - I heard him
talking to Henry --
O U 2.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: last night and, gee, he sounded
like a house afire last night. He was just -- sounded
great.
STEVE: Well, I, I --
JOHN: He sounded like he was in some pain
tonight.
STEVE: Yeah, he was. There's no question he
was. I happened to be here a few times when - while
he was talking to you. He either had to cough or
sneeze or something.
JOHN: Yeah. He coughed one time and --
STEVE: Oh, yeah, he --
JOHN: -- he was in a lot of pain.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. I was watching him grimace
in the face.
JOHN: was - were they able to use the, the
suture, suture kit?
STEVE: I - you know, I actually wasn't
around during the time, so I'm not certain --
JOHN: Did you see his hand?
STEVE: No, I didn't see his hand, cause he
had a --
JOHN: Cause I think he said his hand or his
wrist or something like, he wanted to clean it up and,
and suture it.92
1
92
1
| 22
STEVE: That -- it's possible, cause he only
had one hand out of the blanket, holding onto the phone
when he was talking to you, I noticed.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So I would -- normally, I'd ask him.
You know, I called out his name again and he's
definitely not responding.
JOHN: Don't know, huh?
STEVE: Any time he's on the phone for, say,
an hour, maybe two, it takes a lot out of him, for
sure.
JOHN: Well, he was concerned about a couple
of other issues, too, and --
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN: -- one of the issues, you know, he
said it was a possible fear and I said that's nonsense,
it's not a fear and I, I didn't think he should be
really a person that should be fearing coming out of
there, because the federal system is a hell of a lot
different than some state or local system, the way we
do things. But --
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN: -- I assured him that if -- not if but
when he came out and, and brought the rest of you out
with him that yes, he would be allowed to speak to the
media. Now, I can't tell you he'd be allowed to speak
I 9 2.
to 250 media representatives, but what I presume, they
would have a - what they would call a pool, you know,
a media pool of half a dozen people or something like
that. But he would be allowed to do that. And that
our normal procedure, and I'm telling it to you as, as
straight as it is, our normal procedure is that he
would be provided immediate medical attention,
depending on the severity of his wounds.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And he would then be brought before a
magistrate. And if he had to be hospitalized, the
magistrate would probably come to the facility and
conduct what we call an initial appearance.
STEVE: Well
JOHN: And that is merely where the
magistrate says these are the charges, I want you to
know and I want you to understand your rights, all of
your rights, to have counsel, appoint counsel, the
whole nine yards there, because we don't mess around
with that kind of thing. We - we're, we're very
serious about the judicial proceedings in, in the, in
the federal system. And, and I want to allay any fears
that, that people have that are in there, that just
because someone is in there doesn't mean that they're
in any way part and parcel to everything that's
happened.
Q U 24
STEVE: Right. I, I'm sure of that.
JOHN: And I don't mean just the youngsters.
We know they, they had nothing to do with this, but I'm
talking about just because a person is a consenting
adult and is inside that facility doesn't necessarily
mean that they're part and parcel of everything that's
going on. So, you know, he seemed to have some, some
questions about that. And, and the other thing is that
he would probably -- the federal magistrate, which is a
federal judge, would probably instruct that he be taken
to a federal medical facility.
And, and I'm talking not just off the top of
my head, I'm talking from, you know, prior experience
in these --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - in these things, such as the one we
have at Springfield, Missouri, or something like that,
where they give a person a complete check up, you know,
because we don't need problems. You know, we don't
need problems.
STEVE: Well, the truth is, you know, after
what happened Sunday, I was surprised that he survived
that, even by his, you know, the way he was talking at
the time. And the next few days it did look like, if
anything, it, it seemed like there was a stability
there, but it seemed also that he had slipped down a92l
O O 25
little bit. But it's been in the last two days where
there's definitely been somewhat of a rebound.
JOHN: Well, he sure sounded like he was
hurting tonight, compared to last night.
STEVE: Yeah, I think that's --
JOHN: And that's strictly my own, my own gut
feeling of what I heard.
STEVE: You, you've got it right, because
even it surprised me, it really did, it surprised me
how I mean, I was looking at him, too, and it
happened a few times. I think maybe that's why he's
passed back into sleep again.
JOHN: Did his color look okay today?
STEVE: Yeah. It appeared like he was okay.
JOHN: well, he was speaking all right.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: He just seemed to be in more pain,
because last night I know he talked to Henry for over
four hours.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And he was just on a whirlwind
session. I mean, they just --
STEVE: It was that long, huh?
JOHN: Four hours and twenty minutes. How's
that sound?
STEVE: WOW .
' ' 26
JOHN: Bet you couldn't do that. I sure as
hell couldn't.
STEVE: Yeah, what he was all saying, I was
quite surprised at the way he was speaking, the subject
matter.
JOHN: Oh, yeah.
STEVE: I mean, it would --
JOHN: Very comfortable.
STEVE: I've been with him for a while off
and on as he has spoken with different scholars and
those that are maybe of different walks of life and he
changes his way he speaks to people. Sometimes he has
to talk to a scholar like he's a country bumpkin, and
other times like he's extremely and highly articulate
and educated. It depends upon, apparently, their --
the person's desire to know what he might have to
offer. I don't know. But you, you mentioned something
earlier about, you know, his fear of maybe coming out.
JOHN: It shouldn't be a fear.
STEVE: Well, I, I don't know that it is. I
mean --
JOHN: I, I told him I didn't think he
personally had a fear. It was more concern --
STEVE: Well, gee, Tuesday everybody, in all
honesty, thought that that was it, it was over. I
remember the last few minutes when that tape finished
up, people were already dressed, ready
serious.
JOHN: Well, I'm telling you
out here.
STEVE: Well, they did here,
no kidding. I mean, I, I --
JOHN: Do you know what your
would have been?
STEVE: What's that?
JOHN: Probably fighting the27
to go. I'm, I'm
they sure did
also. That is
biggest problem
media.
STEVE: But, anyway, we -- at the same time,
you know, we were ready, our people were ready to go
out the door. He was actually left alone when he
started praying and --
JOHN: Don't leave him alone next time, huh?
STEVE: Well, you know, anyway, we waited.
You know, we waited a few moments, came back and still
was -- and, finally, just said well, what's happening?
And at that time he said -- in fact, you know, I know
you've never, you know, it's -- it would be hard for
somebody in your place and position to
something like this.
JOHN: It really would. And
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: It's very difficult.believe
it really is.
STEVE: For, for, for me, also. For me,
I , 28
also, because when I first met him, after dealing with
so much when you're into religion and you listen to
people say they're gurus and they're prophets and
they're this and that.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: Well, I'd never bought any of that
sort of thing in my life. You know, there's no bona
fide that have ever come close to - not some
fanaticism or somebody that's off the wall somehow.
But when I met him, it was factual material in context
shown. So that's why you kind of -- you turn your head
a little bit and you give it a little time and you
listen a little more, you look, you check, you try to
rip the material apart. Well, that's how it began, but
like with that day that we were going to walk out --
and when I first met him, he let me know, because he
gave me such deep material.
I says where did you get it? See, I was
expecting him to say one of the major universities.
And then he told me he had dropped out of school as a
freshman in high school. I was quite surprised to hear
that.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So, in the process, I kept on at him,
well, where did you get the information? Because many
times he'll deal in sciences, but not like what I've
O O 29
heard him give like over the phone. I mean, he really
gets deep into like matter, antimatter, the speed of
light, gemstones, laser technology, all these things.
And so --
JOHN: He does?
STEVE: Yeah. Oh, like you would never
believe. I mean --
JOHN: well, I believe it now, after
listening to him for, for three or four days, I believe
it.
STEVE: You would ask yourself the question
where is he getting the information? He'll get into
the geology of the earth, how it's made, the structure
of volcanos, earthquakes, how and when and why they're
going to happen. It's one thing just to speculate
about the future or the possibilities of catastrophes
to happen, but when you get into details of how things
are made and how they're --
JOHN: I'd like to have him figure out when
the next hurricane's blowing through, huh?
STEVE: Well, yeah. Well, he did tell us
about the Gulf War before it came about.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: And -- nothing would come of it.
But, anyway, so that's what I mean, that when that day
came we thought we were on our way out. But he had
I O 30
told us for some time God hadn't really spoken to him
and --
JOHN: Well, let me, let me ask you something
about --
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN: He mentioned last night that -- when
he asked for the suture kit --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- he, he said that -- I guess it was
his wrist I think he mentioned, but he said it was
changing color and he wanted to get it scrubbed up and
cleaned up and --
STEVE: Probably --
JOHN: - really felt that the, that the
sutures would, you know, be a much more successful way
to heal this thing. Did you notice, had it really
looked like it was festering or changing color, or just
it was a lousy looking wound?
STEVE: Well, well, it, it does look kind of
bad. It's kind of an ugly wound in that it ripped
apart a lot of the flesh from the outside.
JOHN: Near his thumb or --
STEVE: It's gouged out like and it tore the
bottom part of the wrist. A lot of times you can't see
unless he turns, you know, towards you.
JOHN: Towards like the heel of his hand or
" ", 31
his thumb?
STEVE: Probably the heel, I believe.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: And --
JOHN: What about his other wounds, did you
see any of those?
STEVE: Yes, I have, and --
JOHN: Does it look like they're getting
better?
STEVE: It's hard to tell looking directly at
it, because, you know, it, it did go inside and went
all the way -- it appears like it, like he said, hit
his pelvis, came up at a diagonal and then went out the
back.
JOHN: Like out his buttocks?
STEVE: Somewhere near there, at the top of
that.
JOHN: Like between his hip and his buttocks,
huh?
STEVE: Yeah, some, somewhere in there.
JOHN: But kind of a fleshy area back there?
STEVE: It looks like it, it looks like it
went straight to like the buttocks area. Hit the
pelvis or something.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Somehow or other turned --
O U .2
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- and exited coming straight up and
then out, higher up the back.
JOHN: But that doesn't seem to be getting
any worse, huh?
STEVE: It, it doesn't. You know, it's -- in
looking at it, and I've seen it a few times but not,
not lately so much --
JOHN: Cause he didn't seem --
STEVE: The pain is still there, you can tell
it. It's a --
JOHN: Tonight it seemed much worse, unless
he didn't take any medication or any pain killers or
anything.
STEVE: N0, he hasn't spit up any -- you
know, like in the beginning, every time he would even
move or talk hardly, he, he -- it'd bleed, you know, he
would definitely be bleeding.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: And he'd be tasting it, he'd spit it
and all that, but recently he hasn't -- nothing like
that has happened. Seems like that has stopped. But
the pain every now and then, like tonight, it, it seems
like it was a little stronger again. So I don't know
why or what the problem is, but, yeah, he's -- it
seemed like he was slowly improving, you know, in theI
O 9 33
last three days.
JOHN: Well, you know, tonight he seemed to
be talking about some things that were more personal to
him and, you know, more, more, more meaningful to him,
and, and, and that was good. And it's just kind of
hard to say. Like I told him, I didn't think it was a
question that he was coming out and that he was going
to bring the flock out with him, it was a question of
when and when he receives the message, you know.
That's the bottom line, I guess, huh?
STEVE: Yeah, it is -- it's a strange thing
because, like I told you when I --
JOHN: Well, it's stranger for me.
STEVE: Well, it is.
JOHN: Where you, you spent time with him
and, and --
STEVE: Well, yeah.
JOHN: -- I appreciate that because I haven't
spent the time with him.
STEVE: Well, see, the first time I even met
him I was extremely apprehensive. I had met a guy by
the name of Mark Broe phonetic sp.! who now was behind
all that's happened in the last two years, all these
investigations, all --
JOHN: Really?
STEVE: It all stemmed -- well, yeah, you can
O Q 3.
check the records.
JOHN: He's from around here?
STEVE: Mark Broe is now living in Australia.
JOHN: Oh.
STEVE: He's originally from Hawaii. I met
Mark in '78.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: He was a young man who had left the
Catholic Church. He was studying with the Adventists.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE:_ He loved -- said he had a love for
the Bible. I watched him. He was blind in his right
eye, maybe 10 percent vision in his left. Over time,
he finally - he became an Adventist and went to their
schools, got a bachelor's degree in religion at Pacific
Union College in northern California. It's an
Adventist college.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: And when he came back, he became very
bitter with the Adventists because they did not give
him a call in their ministry after paying out the
thousands of dollars that he had.
JOHN: The insult, he paid his dues and
didn't get it, huh?
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: Yeah.
I, I, 35
STEVE: So I felt kind of for the guy and I
spent a little time with him. And then he told me that
he had a, a dream. Well, I wasn't into that sort of a
thing.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: You know, extremely skeptical of
people, had to get into their personal kind of
phenomenal that kind of phenomena. So he went off
to Loma Linda University, which is another one of their
universities in California, and writes to me and tells
me he had a vision. For six months he starts writing
and talking about his visions and dreams. They didn't
make a lot of sense to me. I'd write back and he'd ask
me to test them by the, the tenor of the scripture,
which there are many scriptures that test when people
believe they're prophets and so forth, whatever they're
called, of God.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So, anyway, I, I looked over the
material and it didn't really go anywhere. But he
returned finally in June of '86. And when he
returned -- when he had left, he really didn't know
much at all about the scriptures. I mean, he had some
of the basics down, but when he returned he literally
blew me away.
JOHN: Yeah.
", I, 36
STEVE: And I said to him Mark, where did you
get the material? And I invited a psychologist friend
of mine, who was probably about early sixties, mid-
sixties, over to meet him, as I did a lot of friends
that have been part of different groups that I'd been
in and social groups and so forth, and everyone was
astounded. No one dared take him on because it was
obvious the information he had was only the beginning
of what he was presenting.
So after I heard it all, I started pressing
him about where did you get the information? He said
to me there was a guy that he had met in California.
So, ultimately, I met the person. To make a long story
short, when I met with him, what he presented me was
Revelation 8. It talks about the seven trumpets.
Well, there's no scholar in the world that'll tell you
for a fact what it is, where it's found in the Bible,
how it connects to you and I, if it does at all, and he
started opening that up in the Bible.
And, I mean, I'll tell you the truth, after
years of my own personal studies, being in colleges,
asking the questions to the scholars, there are some
men that can speak 16 languages that I've met. I mean,
they have a real capacity, a memory and an ability.
But these men did not have the answers, nothing
consistent. So when he presented that to me in the
O 9 37
first meeting with him, I then said hey, I've got a
group of people, there are some people I have met that
would like to hear you. They'll pay your way. Why
don't you come over? And he looked at me and said I
don't go anywhere, I don't do anything without the
direction of God.
JOHN: Hey, Steve.
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN: Somebody just passed me a note --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: - and said -- and I wonder if you
could just check on it and either call me back or I can
hold on --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: - that somebody is walking in the
courtyard between the ~ I guess the buildings and,
what have you got, a swimming pool out there, big pool
out there?
STEVE: Really?
JOHN: Somebody is walking out there right
now.
STEVE: Positively?
JOHN: Absolutely.
STEVE: Hold on just one minute.
JOHN: Can I just hold on or -
STEVE: Yeah, please do.
U U 3.
JOHN:
STEVE:
unaware of it.
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
supposed to --
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
building.
JOHN:
tower and a pool
like in there?
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
Pause!
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE: I would be quite shocked if that were
true, seriously.Okay.
Please do, cause we're totally
Okay.
I'll be just a minute.
And it's our impression that's not
Hello?
Yeah, I'm here.
It's between the pool and the
Yeah. You've got what, a big water
and buildings? There's a courtyard
All right, yeah, there is.
Okay. Can you check on it?
Yeah, I will. Just hang on.
Thank you.
Okay, they're checking right now.
Yeah.
JOHN: Well, I guarantee you it's true.
STEVE:
JOHN:Oh, but
They're not making it up.
STEVE: No, it may not be somebody
JOHN: Oh.
STEVE: Because, seriously - now,
know, in the last few nights there have been
these people. Now, if it was one person, we
check, be sure --
JOHN:
now.
STEVE:
there was a few
left their dome lights on.
JOHN:
people, though, because our people --39
with us.
look, you
reports by
always say
They think the person has gone back in
Okay. but -- and the other night
that had gone into their cars, even
Well, I can tell you it's not our
STEVE: Well, who do you think it is, though?
JOHN: And it could have been just somebody
that went out there to relieve themselves, huh?
STEVE: Well, nobody -- I guarantee it was
nobody of us, because they watched the persons go into
the vehicles, even leave the dome lights on and the
door cracked and so forth. Went through it -- they
watched some movement elsewhere around the building.
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: Not ours. And that's why in the
process --
JOHN: - I wouldn't have interrupted you
unless, you know, somebody handed me the note and said
0 I 40
1 someone was out there. I wouldn't interrupt you
2 otherwise.
3 STEVE: Nobody, none of ours have been.
4 Nobody. No ones out there now and no one has been.
5 They just went and checked.
6 JOHN: Well, I didn't -- you go ahead with
7 what you were saying. I didn't mean -- I just wanted
8 to make sure that no one was wandering around.
9 STEVE: That is, that is a strange thing, for
10 sure. But when I talk --
11 JOHN: Well, you've, you've got a little bit
12 of education yourself, don't you?
13 STEVE: Well, yeah, I've got some, but,
14 anyway, you know, I talked with Jim and Henry, of
15 course, about that and they didn't deny it. They said
16 that it was possible, but --
17 JOHN: What's that?
1 18 STEVE: About certain ones being running
92 19 around at night and so forth, which is true because --
20 JOHN: You mean our people?
21 STEVE: Oh, yeah, yeah. It seems like
22 with - I don't know if it's National Guard or, I mean,
23 with the military from Collin or whatever, but --
24 JOHN: No, no, no, they don't have any
25 National Guard people up there at all.
STEVE: Okay. Then it would seem like --
O U 41
JOHN: And, and our people are not going up
close to that building. I mean, when I say up close,
maybe a couple hundred yards away or something, but
they're not going inside the courtyard of the building.
STEVE: Oh, no, I, I don't --
JOHN: I mean, that's crazy.
STEVE: It would be.
JOHN: We don't want to aggravate the
situation. We're trying to lowkey this.
STEVE: But, John, not to offend you or
anything, but you say you don't want to aggravate, but,
I mean, you know, again I don't want to be repetitious
or redundant, but, I mean, from what the agreement was
Sunday night and what's taken place, some of the
movements of the Bradleys and the kids getting out and
some of their movements, especially in the night, and
of course they've got a certain kind of sounds and
calls they, they've been making that are like birds,
owls and so forth. Are you aware of that?
JOHN: N0.
STEVE: Yeah. I don't know if --
JOHN: You've got some strange creatures out
there, huh?
STEVE: well, I don't know if it's them doing
it humanly or if they've got some kind of a call or
something, but --
I O .2
JOHN: More than trapped gas?
STEVE: Exactly. More than trapped gas. But
those are the things that have been really irritating
these people. You know, there are some that get itchy,
and we're telling them look, just, just stay together
here, just stay together.
JOHN: Let me, let me pass something else on
to you --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: - that I've got. It's, you know,
it's not necessarily good news, but I guess in another
way it may be. The -- one of our aircraft I guess
earlier yesterday found a body in the ravine.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And the body's been - we recovered
the body and took it to the coroner, etcetera, and it's
been identified as Michael Dean Schroeder.
STEVE: I had a feeling it might be him.
JOHN: Okay. Now, yesterday -
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: - Brian Schroeder was released.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: Is that going to be his dad or
something?
STEVE: That is. That's his father.
JOHN: And his mom's in there?
O U 43
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: That's Kathy?
STEVE: That's correct.
JOHN: Okay. So, you know, you and David
might want to talk to her, huh?
STEVE: Okay. John --
JOHN: It's a positive deal.
STEVE: -- is there anyone else -- what, what
happened with Don Bunge? You have him then apparently.
JOHN: Who?
STEVE: Don Bunge maybe. Is there a name
like that?
JOHN: In custody?
STEVE: Yeah. We were told --
JOHN: Deceased?
STEVE: I, I don't know. I have no idea what
he is or --
JOHN: Oh, just somebody that, that was
arrested, you mean?
STEVE: Yeah, I don't know if he was arrested
or, I mean, cause he has -- he's been here before and
we heard from different reports from the radio that he
had been with you and that he had called his daughter
in California. She is another one that actually is an
outright stated enemy that --
JOHN: Don Bunge?
O I 44
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:Exactly.
He was arrested.
Well, this is what we heard on the
radio, a 62-year-old man --
JOHN:
answer and I wasI'm trying to get you the straight
-- it may have seemed like I was
pausing here, but I needed to get somebody that, that
could tell me yes, no, not maybe.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
deceased and his
STEVE:
suppose you have
or what, or what
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
had -- actually,
him up, I guess theyYeah.
But he has been taken into custody.
what have you --
But Schroeder, he's definitely
body is --
Right. Anyhow, you don't -- I don't
a picture as to what's happened to him
did possibly happen to him?
No idea. I have no idea, other than -
From what Jim told --
-- he was, he was in a ravine and he
when they took him -- when they picked
flew over there with a helicopter
and picked him up --
STEVE:
because, I mean,
JOHN:It's funny he was left there so long,
if he was shot --
Well, I can tell you what -- to my
I I 45
knowledge what happened.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: There was an incident, you know, on
that morning where you had some ATF people got in a
fire fight, I guess, with some other people and there
were injuries on both sides. And, and apparently both
sides went in different directions, you know --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- immediately, to get out of the
area. And I guess he was just left behind.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN: ATF people went one way, he went the
other way and one of our guys picked him up in the
helicopter.
STEVE: Was, was --
JOHN: He still had a weapon in his hand.
STEVE: What was the guy's name you picked up
also from England? His name was Dell, Delmar, Del --
JOHN: Delray?
STEVE: Delray, that's it, Delray.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: was he with him or something or --
JOHN: That I don't know.
STEVE: You don't know.
JOHN: N0.
STEVE: Actually, I wondered -- or if there
O U 46
was anybody else with him or --
JOHN: From what I understand, there were
three people.
STEVE: That's what I'm told.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: That's what I've heard.
JOHN: And I can only tell you second and
thirdhand. I mean, that's the best I can have. And
then I heard one person was taken into custody, one
person was, they felt, killed. And, as it turns out,
that's going to be Michael.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And one person was, they felt, wounded
and probably went back inside. But this is something
that probably happened a couple hundred yards away from
the building.
STEVE: See, that's what I heard, that there
were three people, and I'm - I was trying to figure
out who they possibly could be. And when you say one
went back inside --
JOHN: I can't tell you who the other name
was. I was thinking of Bob or Bill or something.
STEVE: Yeah, a Bob - I had inquired about a
Bob because --
JOHN: But there were three people, I know
that.
O U 47
STEVE: I believe that.
JOHN: And one was injured, one, one --
STEVE: You didn't pick up the injured man
then?
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE: You don't have --
JOHN: No, because both people -- both groups
ran in different directions.
STEVE: Oh, I, I see. So they were probably
together then, huh?
JOHN: The three?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Yes.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN: And, and I guess when -- whether the
shooting subsided or whatever, people were going in
opposite directions. The government people were, were
going in one direction to get the hell out of the area
and, and --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - probably those three were moving in
a different direction, also.
STEVE: Well, how is Delray doing, anyway?
How is he doing?
JOHN: I don't know. I'd have to ask and get
back with you. I mean, off the top of my head I
I C .8
couldn't tell you.
STEVE: Right. Right.
JOHN: He's in custody maybe.
STEVE: Okay. And then I --
JOHN: I could have someone check right now,
which they are going to go do.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: And, hopefully, I can give you the
answer. But I wanted to let you know about Michael so
that --
STEVE: Right. Yeah, the --
JOHN: -- you can talk to Kathy. And it'd
probably be best that you and, and David talk to her,
you know.
STEVE: Yeah, we will.
JOHN: But is Brian their child?
STEVE: That is correct.
JOHN: Any of the other youngsters come out
their children that you know of?
STEVE: Yes. Let's see, right offhand,
Scott, Jake.
JOHN: Okay, Jake and Scott came out
together, huh?
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: Two brothers that came out together?
STEVE: Right.
O I .9
JOHN: One with long blonde hair?
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: And there was a girl, also. Her name
is - oh, what is it? Right off, I can see her face.
Chrissy.
JOHN: Okay. Yeah, Chrissy.
STEVE: Right. And then Brian is younger, is
the smallest one.
JOHN: Now, I don't know what type of
services or anything like that they - the family and
all -- I don't know if Michael has got family around
here or anything like that, whether they're going to
have services.
STEVE: I think his family, from what I
understand, is out of Florida.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I believe.
JOHN: I don't know if they've been
contacted. I presume they have, you know, I presume
they have but I sure would want you to -- you and David
to talk to --
STEVE: Now, what are we going to be doing
wit the body of Peter Gent who I hear that his family
is here, that they flew from Australia.
JOHN: Well --
I I so
STEVE: That's the body that was found --
JOHN: That's the one that's with you people
right now?
STEVE: Well, tell you the truth, I don't
even know where he is because Dick was telling me that
one of the guys apparently stepped outside the building
in kind of the courtyard area because they, they did
find the body. I think he went out there to identify
him or --
JOHN: At the compound?
STEVE: Yeah. And Dick said apparently they
must have opened --
JOHN: Okay. I discussed that with David
tonight.
STEVE: Oh, you did?
JOHN: And I said --
STEVE: I wasn't able to talk to him.
JOHN: You know, I said hey --
End Tape #62!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #63
3/6/93
AOM- _ AOMO
I C 2
Tape 63!
JOHN: But if, if somebody wanted to use a
stretcher, use something to, to -~
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - bring he body out --
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: - we would accept the body as long as
someone would accompany the body. In other words,
someone would come out. Now, I don't think it would be
very appropriate to have a child accompany a body and
come out, you know. I'm not being morbid about it.
STEVE: No, I understand.
JOHN: I think an adult should come out.
STEVE: I understand --
JOHN: And David said flat no.
STEVE: Right. I understand even the
psychology involved myself. If I were on your side in
your shoes, I'd at least do the same thing.
JOHN: Well, it's the right thing. But I
just wouldn't want to throw a body out and say hey, we
don't care, whatever.
STEVE: You know, but he gives the option to
these people still, do you want to go out or whatever.
See, I guess --
JOHN: Well, I think he's got to be a little
more authoritative.
O O 3
STEVE: Well, at the time --
JOHN: And, and it's a serious thing and, and
it's a religious thing, also.
STEVE: Well, it is. See, that's the point.
JOHN: when you're talking about the
deceased.
STEVE: These people are starting to, you
know, these people are also waiting because his God
said wait and that's the same God that is showing him
information.
JOHN: well, if you would encourage him that,
that his God, you know, is certainly not going to look
negative upon them for accompanying a body out there,
not only to the coroner but --
STEVE: Are you telling me these persons
could accompany the body to the coroner and then
return?
JOHN: I'm not telling you that.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And, and I'm not lying to you. I
don't want you --
STEVE: Oh, I know.
JOHN: -- to get the wrong impression.
STEVE: Of course not. And I, I would hope
that you would --
JOHN: I, I would expect someone to come out
I I 4
because I expect that person to come out, spend time
with the coroner and to be familiar with the
individual. And then to assist in contacting next of
kin, all of these type of things, you know.
STEVE: All right. Well, he --
JOHN: And, and I think that's the, the
proper thing to be done.
STEVE: The option will always be given to
any and all of these people, you know, and --
JOHN: But sometimes you've got to give them
a little nudge, huh?
STEVE: Well, this is true, and there's been
a lot of times - In fact, frequently we will do that.
The first day this even happened, afterwards, he asked
me to - and I told - Jim knew that. Twice I went
around to everybody in the entire building --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- saying do you want to leave?
They'll give you safe protection, you'll be -- and
apparently it must have been a little too early or
soon, I guess. Everybody was just too --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: The fear, the apprehension, what all
took place, it was -- I'll tell you the truth, anything
that ever happened to me in my life, this was so beyond
the shock ~~ I was down just reading a book, talking
with someone when that happened. It happened so
quickly. I mean, it, it - I couldn't hardly figure
out what was going on.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I didn't know who it was or --
JOHN: Another thing, another thing. You
might have Kathy -- when you and David talk to her in
the morning --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- she might have some ideas of some
service or something that she would, would like for,
for Michael.
STEVE: All right, I'll, I'll ask about that
JOHN: You know, because you say his, his
parents are, are from Florida you think.
STEVE: I think they're divorced, that the
father --
JOHN: I mean, she's his wife, huh?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: She should have a little, a little
input there.
STEVE: Right. I believe that the father's
out of Chicago and the mother's somewhere in, it's
possible, Orlando or somewhere like that, or on the
St. Petersburg -- over on the --
JOHN: Maybe, maybe get those answers in the
O O 6
morning, huh?
STEVE: I'll, I'll try to do that.
JOHN: And, hey, if she wants to come out and
make those arrangements --
Gent -- hi
them to know, if
and --
you know,STEVE: Well, if you would, leave Pete
s parents I think are Bruce and Lisa -- allow
you would, that --
JOHN: Does he have anybody inside?
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: Does Pete have any relatives inside?
STEVE: Yes, he does.
JOHN: Children?
STEVE: Yeah, there's a -- there's children
JOHN: Do they know?
STEVE: - a sister. Yeah, they found out,
and of course, you know, there was a great
hurt. You know how that is.
Sunday and
say?JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So, I mean, because --
JOHN: It's a delicate situation.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. He had been missing since
we didn't know what had happened to him.
JOHN: And he's got a sister in there, you
STEVE: Oh, yeah.
O O 7
JOHN: A wife or anything?
STEVE: He's not married.
JOHN: Oh, okay.
STEVE: Yeah. But he had been missing. And
there's a few - there's other ~ definitely, there's
some casualties that have to be checked out still. And
like you found the one out there, but he hadn't been,
as you all already know, he hadn't been already part of
this. He hadn't been here that day.
JOHN: Really?
STEVE: No, uhuh. So when the press was
saying that there was a gun burst about six o'clock
Sunday where three individuals involved, at first I
couldn't figure out what on earth it could be about.
The more I thought about it, I did remember that there
were some guys that were away and apparently they had
heard or been listening on the news, I don't know. So
that's why I was -- for all this time one has been
curious to know who or what or ~- so that's when Jim
told me right away about this Delray. I didn't know
who he was talking about. I hadn't heard the man's
name or that he was called by that name.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Apparently, it's his first name, a
name he didn't like which he never used. He went by a
different name totally. But --
O I 8
JOHN: Well, that was involving the three
individuals. And, and, like I said, you had two groups
involved - excuse me - in the altercation there, and
I guess when things got hot and heavy, they both went
STEVE: So you think it was earlier Sunday
then, huh? Must have been.
JOHN: Well, I think it was - the one
involving Michael was the same time that everything was
going on.
STEVE: Yeah, I wondered about that. I
wondered about that.
JOHN: But it was away. I mean, I can't say
out in the woods or something, but it was like 100, 200
yards away from the buildings there itself.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN: Wherever it happened. And then they
had their, their incident and then they, they kind of
went in two different directions, you know.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And there was a third person. One
fellow was taken into custody. Obviously, Mike was
found deceased.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And, and the impression I have is that
the third party was injured and went back inside the
O I 9
compound or went in that direction, because the other
-- the, the government representatives that were there,
the ATF guys, of course they were going in the opposite
direction. So it was pure speculation and conjecture
on their part.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: But I wish you'd, you know, you and
David be kind of strong with Kathy in the morning. And
if she wants to - I'd certainly encourage her to
participate in whatever she --
STEVE: Well, I believe Dick spoke with her
today --
JOHN: Did he? _
STEVE: -- just before that news conference
that was given in the afternoon --
JOHN: Did he?
STEVE: -- for about 10 minutes maybe. And,
of course, at that time she was not aware that's who it
was. I suspected and tried to drop a hint here or
there at the time.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: But I thought that it was a good
possibility.
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: And she didn't seem to accept that,
though. So I don't know. Yeah, I'll definitely in the
U I 10
morning talk to her, somewhere around eight or nine
o'clock.
JOHN: And if, if she wanted to -- she
doesn't have any more children in there, huh?
STEVE: No, she doesn't.
JOHN: If she wanted to accompany Peter out
in the morning, she could probably --
STEVE: well, I'll give her --
JOHN: -- accomplish two tasks, couldn't she?
STEVE: It's possible.
JOHN: She could take care of, you know, take
care of Michael and be with her children and take care
of Michael and make some arrangements.
STEVE: I'm speaking about the -- Talking to
someone else.!
JOHN: I'm sorry, what?
STEVE: Oh, just a moment, John.
Pause!
JOHN: Don't tell me you woke him up.
Pause!
STEVE: I was just listening to a couple
people over here that, that apparent --
JOHN: Hello? Yeah, go right ahead.
STEVE: Yeah, that apparently were just
talking about some information here, and I wanted to
pick up on what was going on. Yeah, so in the morning
I O 11
what I'll do is --
JOHN: David, David's still sleeping, huh?
STEVE: I think he -- he just moved a little
bit.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: That's why I wanted to see just if he
was awake or what he was doing, if he was just moving
around a little bit or what --
JOHN: You know, it's a possibility -- of
course, you two are going to have to be pretty strong
with Kathy. Yet, she could come out and be very, very
productive, instrumental thing see that things are
handled properly for two people, for not only Peter but
for her own husband, and, and then be with her
children.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And handle a real nice Christian
burial there, wherever and whenever she would like to
do that. And I'm sure she could, she could be of great
assistance to Peter's folks if they've come up here
from, from some distance.
STEVE: Well, we'll --
JOHN: Be a little more, you know, reassuring
to them since she, she's -- she knows -- she's known
Peter, she's can talk with them.
STEVE: Yeah, definitely in the morning then
. 12
I'll we'll give her that opportunity and option,
tell her what's happened and what she could do about
the other.
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE: Yeah, it's --
JOHN: Well, I, I think we could accomplish
two tasks at the same time.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And ~-
STEVE: I'll talk to her somewhere around
probably eight or nine. She asked to be woke up about
there, anyway.
JOHN: Eight or nine?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: That's a lot of sleep.
STEVE: Well, I don't know. Apparently, they
just -- someone told me they just turned in.
JOHN: Really?
STEVE: You know, there's -- some will sleep,
some stay awake and - so I never know who's doing
what.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: But, apparently, she's been up quite
late. In fact, still might be. I don't know.
Somebody thought she might have just turned in.
JOHN: Yeah.
U U .3
STEVE: But I wouldn't want to - at this
time of night she wouldn't probably sleep through the
night, so --
JOHN: When, when I mentioned to you earlier
about David really not sounding as good tonight as far
as, you know, the pain and everything --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- you don't think his wounds are
festering or anything like that, it's just --
STEVE: I, I don't know.
JOHN: -- he might be going through a phase?
STEVE: I wondered that myself. I'm not
sure, but it wouldn't seem like it because --
JOHN: But he hasn't been indicating to you
that something's getting infected or something like
that, it's just --
STEVE: No. So far, no.
JOHN: He's just going through a little more
anguish?
STEVE: I, I think that's what it could be.
I mean, definitely there's some strong pain there. But
I, I thought for sure, just like Jim and the others
suspected that, you know, that the -- a great
infection. I expected a lot of that, especially from
the first night. He himself did.
JOHN: Yeah.
O O 1.
STEVE: It, it is a bad wound. There's no
question, I mean. You know, going right through just
about --
JOHN: Well, I'll tell you, I don't
understand how in the world he, he's been able to talk
like he's been able to talk.
STEVE: I don't either. He's taken no --
JOHN: He was on a roll last night. I don't
mean tonight, I mean last night, talking to, to Henry.
STEVE: I'm sure.
JOHN: He was, he was just as verbose as you
could be and, and talking about a lot of personal
things, you know.
STEVE: Right. To tell you the truth, I
overheard some of it and I was quite surprised.
JOHN: It wasn't just, you know, I'm going to
read the scripture, this was just right off the cuff,
having quite a dialogue. I, I think they had a very
good dialogue together.
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: You know, and I, and I hope the time
that I spent with David this evening was good. I mean,
I thought it was and I, and I hope he shared the same
feelings.
STEVE: I hope so.
JOHN: You know, because this is new for me,
' . 15
and when I say new for me, the philosophy is new.
STEVE: Right, right.
JOHN: I'm not going to tell you the rest of
it is, but it is a new philosophy and, and it's a
learning experience and it's just difficult that it had
to happen this way.
STEVE: It is, but maybe -- well, I mean,
right from the beginning, even when I first heard, he
himself seemed, you know, like all the prophets have
been called stumbling blocks because usually there have
people that have given a measure of understanding,
wisdom, knowledge about the rest for the basis to lead,
to show what is needed for God's people in whatever
generation, whatever God requires. God really has
given light to those that have, on their own, by their
own pride and arrogancy, through a lot of hard work,
gained their degrees and so forth.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: You look throughout the Bible,
prophets usually were sheep herders, fig pickers, which
now we call migrant workers. There were people that
were --
JOHN: Hadn't heard fig pickers before.
STEVE: Yeah. Amos was a fig picker. In
fact --
JOHN: You don't want to say that 10 times
real fast, do you?
STEVE: No. In
pig ficker, you know, get
quite humorous. I had to
in a lecture.
JOHN: You, you
David
STEVE: Yeah.C 16
fact, I have heard people say
it turned around there. It's
laugh, too. I did this week
mentioned when you first met
JOHN: - it was out in California, though,
huh?
STEVE: This is correct. It was actually
in - I was picked up by one of the people out there in
Los Angeles, at the airport, taken to one of their
homes. And extremely apprehensive, of course, looking
around, not knowing what this was all about. And I met
him in a home and, I mean, I was shocked. He came over
by me. I sat in a chair and he sat down on the floor,
looking at me, and he started talking to me about the
scripture. And, well, I was half listening because,
you know, the first time you meet someone you're
usually looking them over and observing and --
JOHN: Well, you said you thought he was a
little strange, huh?
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: The first time you met him.
STEVE: Well, not really strange.
U I 17
JOHN: Well, the beliefs, the theory, the
principles.
STEVE: Well, no, it was actually the, the
information was extremely logical. And what was more
astounding was how clear it was coming directly from
the book that I had read so many times and never
understood, other than, you know, once in a while you
might come up with a theory or, speculatively speaking,
it could be this, maybe that.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: But he was talking with such
authority because he was bringing in so many chapters
in context without interpretation, just reading them
but showing how they connect. Well, definitely, a very
clear picture was developing between all the prophets
and what they saw. So, see, that's what really caught
my attention, even though he was dressed not anything
like a, a minister or in a three-piece suit or anything
else. In fact, on the contrary, the way he was
dressing in those days was always a stumbling block.
You wondered well, this guy doesn't seem to be a
professional by looks. I mean, you would not expect
him to be really anything by the way he was dressing,
but it was when he opened his mouth. Where on earth
someone as young as himself, where did he get the
information? I mean, he did not have enough time in
, 25O O ,8
life at that time to develop and to gain or give that
kind of information. There was just no way, especially
when once I saw him get on a pulpit and give a group of
100 people a lecture on the Bible.
His hands were greasy from working on a car.
He went for five hours, quoting chapter after chapter
after chapter, not missing a word. And the astounding
thing was not that a person could ever memorize all
that, the astounding thing was the clarity and the
picture that was drawn from it, the logical
progression.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: And this is what, you know, caught a
lot of people's attention. So they started -- he's
always said ask questions, any questions, any
questions. So people asked the questions. The answer
is given by having them turn to the pages of their own
book. Then they're told to go wrestle with the issues.
Like if somebody comes to us, like, for instance, of
course, Robert had been coming here, we've had other
guests through the years that come here, we'll give
them some pretty strong studies and then send them out,
tell them to take some time away from us.
Go to the scholars, go to the ministers, go
to the lay people, ask them these questions, let them
raise questions with yourself. Honestly, this is what
Q O 19
we've done over and over again.
JOHN: Do you encourage them to talk to
basically nondenominational scholars --
STEVE: Oh, yes, either or.
JOHN: -- or any particular ones?
STEVE: Anybody. You know, go, go to
atheistic scholars that - maybe someone that's into
anthropology of religion or someone that's really
studied and looked at it from many different angles.
Go to the rabbis, go to the ministers of different
denominations.
JOHN: You weren't just, just talking about
any selected verses with selected analyses, though, you
were going over an entire --
STEVE: Yeah. We - well, he opens up - for
instance, you know, you have a prophet like Joel who
wrote three chapters in the Old Testament.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: Doesn't take long to get through,
it's just that the question that puzzles any scholar,
any layperson is how does it connect to the other
writers of that book, which Christians always tell you
that that book is a very consistent book, even though
in reality one can show many contradictions. You know,
all scholars of higher criticism can do that. So a lot
of times - I used to play the advocate a lot and would
I I 20
rip the foundation apart of a lot of people, just
because I would want to see what really their beliefs
were and if they were founded in this book that they
said they were so strong into. So I tried to do that
to David when I met him and --
JOHN: How'd that come across?
STEVE: Well, what I'd do is I'd ask him a
question, trying to --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: -- trying to catch him.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: And he'd give me an answer. Then I'd
wait, ask him a few more questions, then I'd ask a
similar question using different wording, seeing if I
couldn't get a different answer out of him. But, no,
he went deeper yet.
JOHN: Couldn't alienate him, obviously.
STEVE: Yeah, yeah, but three, four times I'd
do that with him and it actually frustrated me, because
after dealing with priests and Lutheran, Methodist,
Baptist ministers for years, I had no problem with
them. But with him, it was -- he pulled the carpet out
from under me.
JOHN: Well, what, what faith were you
practicing just before you, you met him?
STEVE: I was a Seventh Day Adventist.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
pretty young to
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:O 2.
Uhhuh.
Yeah. And --
But he must have come across also as
He was. At that time, he was --
-- to be scholarly.
-- 26 years old.
And, you know, I, I, I can't say that
I would relate to that. I'm of a different faith, but
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVEwhat faith are you?
Well, I'm Catholic.
You are? Uh-huh.
Don't hold it against me now.
No, no, no, no.
And --
I don't judge anybody.
Well, that's good, because I try --
I mean --
-- not to also.
See, my mother was also Catholic. My
dad was a Lutheran. so I had a, a background where
they believed in God and ultimately there was influence
of my dad so I fought the Adventists Indiscernible!.
So, I, I --
JOHN: That's all right. I've got a wife
F0 0 2.
that was Baptist, but I --
STEVE: Is that right?
JOHN: -- converted her.
STEVE: Umhum. That's a pretty --
JOHN: That wasn't easy.
STEVE: -- task.
JOHN: It wasn't easy.
STEVE: No, that's rare that a Baptist
becomes Catholic.
JOHN: She's a Batholic now.
STEVE: Laughing.!
JOHN: But that's --
STEVE: First time I've heard that.
JOHN: But, you know, we look upon the
theologians, really, as, you know, more elderly and
scholarly and everything. And that's why I said it
must have come as quite a shock to the system when this
young fellow's down here expounding the virtues, as he
was, to you.
STEVE: Um-hum. Well, this is true.
JOHN: You know, when you, when you first met
David.
STEVE: This is true.
JOHN: Because, generally, we look at, look
at the, the real young ones when they're, when they're
taking that attitude as where, where are you --
U C 2.
STEVE: John, I'd, I'd give anything in this
world to be able to have him sit down with the greatest
scholars that there's ever been. I was with him in
Jerusalem --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- and I met some rabbis that were
awesome deep thinkers with such quick logic, very
articulate, able to communicate quickly, and I observed
a debate between a young Jewish guy, maybe 19, 20 years
of age, and a rabbi who was very seasoned. And the
conversation, as the logic developed, was so deep and
quick, I was able to follow with no problem. It's just
I had to jump into the conversation. I mean, these
guys were talented. They had some gifts.
JOHN: Can you imagine how many people would
like to sit down with him?
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: I mean right now.
STEVE: There are -- well, that is true.
There's always been --
JOHN: And, and I'm talking about members of
the religious community would probably like to sit down
with him right now as a result of what they've heard,
that they're probably totally illiterate as to his
philosophies and his interpretations of some of these -
- I'll bet you that an awful lot of them would like to
I O 2..
sit down and, and get into some pretty deep, lengthy
discussions with him. Of course, obviously, it's going
to happen when he comes out because a lot of these
people have the opportunity to spend some time with
him. You know, whether he's in a medical facility or
any other facility, they'll certainly have --
STEVE: You would know more about that than I
would.
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE: You would know more about that than
myself.
JOHN: well, that's, that's a matter of fact.
STEVE: You know, I mean, since Sunday, since
Sunday, I mean, what has all taken place, I, in
honesty, don't have the foggiest idea where one stands
in relation to all the events.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, the media's constantly
getting inquiries about, about this particular group.
You know, of course, you hear the, the media addressing
it --
STEVE: Well, I know they --
JOHN: - as a cult and David doesn't like to
hear that, and I certainly won't -- wouldn't use that
word in talking to you because it's got a lot of
negative connotations.
STEVE: I do realize, I do realize there'd
" 25
have to be charges, but whoever comes out there was a
lot of bad things --
JOHN: As I said, there's not charges against
everyone. And David's --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- not a fool and he's, he's a bright
person and he knows He is the leader and he is going to
be charged with something. I'd be a buffoon to tell
you it wasn't going to happen, wouldn't I?
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: And, and you've got to accept that.
STEVE: The question is, you know, it's
always -- of course, even from your own perspective,
you know, I mean, a person talks about war, what's war,
what isn't war, what is being -- is defending your own
life. Of course, you know, the, the details of how the
men approached, who they were, did they make themselves
known. I mean, there's so many things that - I mean,
I was there and, I tell you what, the account of the
people here that were scattered all over the building,
I mean a lot of these people did not know until there
was a shout that there was certain vehicles approaching
in the driveway.
This is I mean, you know, on the news of
course your agency over and over again has made it seem
like that there was a tip-off from a phone call. In
O O 2.
honesty and truth, as I, I told some of the media
Sunday when I spoke with them, that was not the case.
But David did -- that Sunday morning I was there. I
got up that morning when, when Robert was sitting there
in the foyer and sat down -- I was, I was a little on
the tired side. Robert had gone to bed about 12 or
later. He left here about twelve o'clock.
JOHN: David said this evening that he knew
they were coming.
STEVE: Well, he did, he
suspected it, as I did myself.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I mean, first of
JOHN: I mean, he didn't
they were coming. He said he knew
STEVE: I mean, the FBIreally did. He
all --
say he just presumed
they were coming.
- I, I would hope
that the FBI is more efficient I mean, I've always
had the highest respect for that agency, I have. I
mean, being brought up as a young boy that believes in
the police and as a protective agency for the people,
they themselves being family men and oriented in that
manner, I mean, I've always thought highly of the FBI
and I know they've done a lot of good work through the
years. But, at the same time, the ATF is someone I was
not familiar with cause I have never been into
drinking, you know, really, or except for this group
O O 27
does have an occasional beer once in a great while,
always in moderation if it is.
But, at the same time, we're not - of
course, you know, like even firearms, that part is
something new to me. I've never been involved, being
in a family that more - very -- strongly pacifist.
So all that took place with that was something new to
me, you know, and this agency and how they work. But I
did see once a video, not that long ago, about that
agency, about like - yeah, I think he mentioned to you
about -- something about breaking the law or something
like that, and that's just those police officers who
were given certain charges after being on the force for
20 some odd years. Are you talking to someone else?
JOHN: Uh-uh.
STEVE: No?
JOHN: Just trying to pick something up.
STEVE: Okay. But, anyway, you know, those
are the things that do make you wonder. I mean, the
way the thing came about, how it happened. I mean, I
would have expected much more professionalism than,
than was shown by the guys across the street. I
mean --
JOHN: Well, you know, Murphy's, Murphy's Law
comes into effect sometimes, too, doesn't it?
STEVE: Yeah. Well, I guess so.
O C 28
JOHN: When things can go wrong, they go
wrong.
STEVE: I mean, you tell me, why --
JOHN: But I'm not going to sit here in
judgment.
STEVE: No, but --
JOHN: Of them, nor am I going to sit in
judgment of you.
STEVE: No, but in the future, yourself, you
tell me. Five to seven guys move in and they're way
out in the middle of the country, across from some kind
of a, a cult. And I mean -- and they're --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: And these guys --
JOHN: -- I don't want to call it a cult, and
he didn't either, you know.
STEVE: Well, you know, I'm not offended
anyway because, you know, I mean, it's such a small
group of people, it's no great big orthodox church with
some multimillions of members and -- but, anyway, you
know, I mean, he went through all the details I'm sure
with you about it.
JOHN: Why do you think, why do you think
David had all those weapons in there?
STEVE: I don't know. And it didn't even
really start that long ago, in honesty. It really
iO I 29
didn't. And --
JOHN: I mean, I can understand if, if people
are into hunting, people like to skeet shoot, people --
STEVE: Well, no, I, I, I understand, also.
JOHN: People are into things like that
that's competitive in nature --
STEVE: Nothing --
JOHN: -- to have shotguns and other things.
But to have --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- the armament that he had.
STEVE: Well, nothing was ever spoken of in
the manner of aggression, by the way. Never ever has
been.
JOHN: I mean, you don't need --
STEVE: Not in --
JOHN: -- a .50-caliber machine gun to go
hunt squirrels, you know.
STEVE: Well, because of the situation we're
in right now, you know, I'm not going to -- there's a
lot of --
JOHN: Oh, I know, I know. And I'm not
trying to entrap you or, or --
STEVE: No, no, I understand.
JOHN: I was just thinking --
STEVE: I really don't --
JOHN: off the top of my head, really.
STEVE: John, I believe that, I really do.
And I'd love to be -- you wouldn't believe I'd like to
open up and say a lot of things, but until I know a
little more about --
JOHN: Well, you know, like --
STEVE: -- what are the possibilities, of
course
JOHN: Well, like I told David when we were
talking about the system, and, and like I, I explained
to you as well about what, what will happen when, when
everyone comes out, it, it may not be a perfect system
but it's the best system in the world, our judicial
system. And we all have certain rights, privileges and
freedoms under the Constitution. And by, by we, I
don't mean me and the people out here, I mean you and
the people in there as well.
And, believe me, the federal judicial system
protects those rights in a strong, strong manner. I
mean, it's not a - it's not taken in a lackadaisical
manner at all. It's, it's very serious and, and the
judges and, and the other people are very serious about
it. I don't know if you've ever spent any time inside
a federal courthouse, but it, it's a totally different
atmosphere than in a -
STEVE: Yeah, I'm sure it is.
O C 31
JOHN: -- in a state or a local --
STEVE: I've had tickets, of course, traffic
tickets and I have --
JOHN: That won't get you into a federal
facility.
STEVE: No, I'm sure.
JOHN: But -- and, and I tried to explain to
him that, you know, there is a presumption of innocence
and that's what the judicial system is all about, and,
and he has to understand that. And he gets his day in
court and he gets his day with the media and, and he
can have the best attorneys money can buy, you know.
And, and these people have an obligation to him to
bring out what he feels is the truth. And, on the
other hand, of course the government's going to bring
out its side of the story, and I'd be foolish to tell
you that they're not.
But the system is the system, and the system
works for us all. And even though at times maybe we
don't like the system -- and, and he got into quite a
lengthy dialogue with me about the problems that he had
in 19, you know, '87-88.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And that, and that's difficult and
that's, that's --
STEVE: I think that was something more
confined to a local mentality --
JOHN: Sure, sure it was.
STEVE: - or a mind-set. It would seem to
me it's almost like the movies, where you see some of
these old stereotype southern places where you --
JOHN: You're not a good old boy.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: You know?
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: And --
STEVE: There's a certain way of doing
things. And I must admit --
JOHN: when you have your local, your local
norms and your local Indiscernible! and all of these
things enter into it.
STEVE: Positively.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: And even in those days, I couldn't
help but go along with the way people might view
something because they hear about somebody digging up a
body. I mean what on earth -- you know, this George
Roden, I never have met the guy but --
JOHN: Me either.
STEVE: Not that I'd even want to or need to,
to associate oneself with such a personality, but the
other guy dug up a grave. And I suppose he told you
. 33
the whole story about -- and then he calls -- gets a
hold of David's phone number and --
JOHN: Yeah, yeah, I heard it.
STEVE: Anyway --
JOHN: I heard him telling Henry about it the
other night.
STEVE: But you tell one of these days
maybe someone can tell me why the authorities didn't
act on corpse abuse or -- they were - and it was told
to them. They should have investigated themselves, not
told these young men from Hawaii, my friends, that they
needed to go on the property, take pictures. And then
the thing is when they did, honestly, when they did,
they had pictures of a, of a casket. They were told by
this Dickerson to go back onto the property, they
needed pictures of bones. That's when that shootout
took place. That's when this man came out of his
trailer with a semiautomatic Uzi and started firing on
some of these guys that had .22's, had, had come along
to only get - maybe to shoot some rounds in the air to
distract the man.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Until they had the evidence. Of
course, it never happened that way. And when the
Sheriff's Department came onto the property, they were
happy to throw down their arms. They thought they were
O I 3.
coming to assist, because they knew that the department
knew about what they were doing, that they were there
trying to gain the evidence. But, instead, they were
slapped with handcuffs, laying in the gravel, facing
the gravel, fire ants biting them and, I mean, got
treated as PLOL terrorists and all sorts of nonsense.
JOHN: Yeah, he was, he was telling Henry.
STEVE: It was, it was a travesty of
injustice, no question about it. It was. I followed
it along myself and was, was shocked. The kind of
money it took to be able to even --
JOHN: You don't recoup that money, either,
do you?
STEVE: No, you don't. There's no way you
can.
JOHN: That's a difficult thing. It's not a
civil litigation where someone doesn't find in your
favor and so you get your money back. But, you know,
the federal system as I was saying, you've got 12
independent people who are going to sit there. And
just because people are inside that compound doesn't
mean they're going to be charged with something.
STEVE: No, I --
JOHN: As I, as I tried to explain that.
STEVE: -- don't go along with those idea.
There's a lot of people here that are -- that, in fact,
", ". 35
when it comes down to many aspects, don't know one
thing from another.
JOHN: In, in the federal system, you have to
have a unanimous Any type of decision has to be
unanimous, you know, all 12 people. Well, they're
going to hear both sides of the story, aren't they?
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And, and it's going to be a thorough
story. You know --
STEVE: Well, I think, I think --
JOHN: I asked David when I was talking to
him earlier this evening and David said he hadn't, if
he hadn't I guess chosen the way of life that he's
chosen, he probably would have been involved in law
enforcement.
STEVE: I wouldn't be surprised.
JOHN: And I said, God, I don't think you
want that headache.
STEVE: NO.
JOHN: It's not like it used to be years ago
and --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And I asked him, I said David, if you
were in law enforcement, I said you put yourself in, in
my shoes today, in our shoes today, what would you do
to resolve this situation? You've got to communicate,
I O 3.
don't you? You have to talk.
STEVE:
JOHN:Well --
Maybe there was a lack of
communication six days ago, but you have to --
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
what - today weQuite obviously.
You know, you have to communicate.
Can I ask you, John, what, what do,
heard contradictory statements by the
ATF agent that was in the news, in the press
conference. We -- I don't know if one of them told me
that -- well, anyway, right along from the beginning it
was that they had come to serve a warrant, an arrest
warrant, for or to him.
JOHN:
STEVE:Uh-huh.
And now we hear that that in fact was
not true. I don't know if that was you asked that --
JOHN:
initially and I,
a search warrant
STEVE:
JOHN:
his person.
STEVE:
JOHN:
that he had been
things --No. I, I made, I made a mistake
and I corrected it. They were serving
on the compound --
Okay, on the compound.
-- and an arrest, an arrest warrant on
I see.
Because he was talking about the fact
out jogging and walking around and
O I 37
STEVE: Oh, that's true.
JOHN: days before. But I said if you
don't have a warrant, you can walk around all you want.
If, if a federal judge, a federal magistrate has not
issued a warrant, they don't have any right to stop you
or do anything else to you. So that's why.
STEVE: Well, he's been in town even. He
took a trip - well, him and I both. I was in
California --
JOHN: But the warrant probably wasn't
outstanding.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN: You know, the warrant hadn't been
issued. So if it hasn't been issued, they certainly
can't stop you or interfere with you in any way. So I
hope that clears that up.
STEVE: well, see, that's why he figured if
he was an agent -- I mean, they would have never been
hurt. The guy's never hit anybody, he's never
threatened anyone.
JOHN: Well, I guess the thing that probably
bothered him more than anything was, was the, the
weapons that were out there.
STEVE: what, bothered who, the agent?
JOHN: Sure, sure.
STEVE: I mean, well, what weapons? Or what
I U .8
did he know for sure?
JOHN: Well, we --
STEVE: I mean --
JOHN: We all know for sure now, don't we?
STEVE: Well, yeah, but, I mean, even myself,
I was totally in the dark until all this came about.
JOHN: Yeah. I mean, we, we know and, heck,
it's been in the media, people have come forth and, you
know, everybody's got to get their story to tell,
right, and about the weapons that David's been buying
for the, the last several months or years or whatever.
STEVE: He hasn't hidden that at all. He's
been very open about it. He's in fact --
JOHN: Well, you just said what - you didn't
know about these weapons.
STEVE: No, I know, but, I mean, I'm not
talking about all, I'm talking to the degree that he's
been to gun shows and so forth.
JOHN: Believe me, if I was going to go knock
on somebody's door and execute a search warrant or an
arrest warrant and I knew they had .50-caliber machine
guns in there and Law rockets --
STEVE: But Robert honestly got --
JOHN: - that would scare me to death.
STEVE: Not at all. Robert got to see the
demeanor of the man, his spirit and attitude, his
I O 39
character.
JOHN: Yeah, but you understand the role
Robert was playing, huh?
STEVE: Oh, I do.
JOHN: I mean now, now, to look back on it,
to understand the role.
STEVE: Even then. I want to tell you, you
wanted to know how the tip-off and all that came about.
Well, I - what I think, what I do recall was kind of a
strange situation.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: It was Sunday morning. I think it
was -- well, number one, God revealed it to him, and
that's, you know, that's going to be hard for the press
and others --
JOHN: To who?
STEVE: -- to believe. To David. Cause I
was sitting there --
JOHN: He revealed what?
STEVE: Revealed to David who and what was
happening.
JOHN: Oh.
STEVE: Because I was there when David made
the statements to Robert in regards to what he had to
do, do it, or whatever.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
O C .0
STEVE: And he did give him a couple of
warnings, but not, not in, not in a bad way.
JOHN: Not in an aggressive, threatening way?
STEVE: No, no, not at all. But only for
himself.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: And, I mean, I was surprised, like
David, when if there was a warrant to be served, why
didn't you say look, David, there's questions that need
to be asked of you, we'd like you to come down and so
forth. I mean, why was -- I mean, these people here,
none of them have ever been involved in any kind of
hardcore -- any crime or any kind of crime --
JOHN: Well, what you have to remember is ATF
agents don't sign a warrant for somebody's arrest or a
search warrant. This is done by a federal judge, and
the federal judge signs the warrant. And if he signed
the warrant on Saturday or on Sunday, that's when you
execute the warrant.
STEVE: You know what I'd like to do? I
wonder if it would ever be possible for us to look at
the evidences that the --
JOHN: You bet.
STEVE: -- the world has seen.
JOHN: Absolutely.
STEVE: I'm, I'm talking about now. I'm
I I 41
talking about now. I was told that --
JOHN: Well, the only way that you're going
to see it is --
STEVE: I heard that the press filmed the
approach of the choppers and so forth and, and some of
how this began.
JOHN: I'm sure they did.
STEVE: And that it's been played a lot of
the people in the United States, the majority have seen
that.
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE: -- to see a video of that, for usYou bet.
Is it possible for us --
There's several things that --
see what was coming about or what was happening?
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
being, I'm being
about it.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
were storming up
weapons showing,
JOHN:The minute you come out.
well, you know --
what can I tell you? I mean, I'm
very practical and very realistic
Just what was --
We're not just going to --
I mean, what was their plan when
to the door, running with assault
ready to be used?
Hey, I've got to tell you, Ito
they
O I 4,
wasn't --
STEVE: I'm telling you.
JOHN: I was not in the State of Texas when
it happened.
STEVE: I was, I was right there. I heard
the, the -- I heard David -- I didn't hear them, I
never heard them say a word.
JOHN: You know, you said that he had -- the
Lord told him that they were coming. David told me
earlier this evening that it was very clear in his mind
one of the first times that he met Robert that -- who,
who Robert was and --
STEVE: Well, I agree. He told me --
JOHN: -- what Robert's identity was.
STEVE: He himself told me that. I went out
to California --
JOHN: That would have been a clue that
Robert's going to be coming some day, isn't it?
STEVE: Not -- no, not at all. Not at all.
JOHN: If they, if they find --
STEVE: Not the way the FBI works. I would
think that they'd have somebody over time and, you
know, using wisdom and sense and so forth. That's why
we didn't hide anything. He took him through the
building and out the back. They brought --
JOHN: He showed him all the weapons and
I I 4.
everything?
STEVE: I doubt that he did that.
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: But, I mean, well, you know what I
mean, who --
JOHN: I mean, that was one of the serious
issues, wasn't it?
STEVE: Well, who knows for sure why they
were coming? Honestly, I mean, I never gave it any
thought about that.
JOHN: I mean, I'm not trying to, you know,
be antagonistic.
STEVE: No, I know you're not. I know you're
not and I don't mind, you know, that you ask it that
way.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: That's fine. But, no, seriously, I
mean, who knows -- I mean, Mark Broe and some of these
people that have, that have heard his studies, have
backed and supported him and talked so highly of him --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: - and then changed and went the
other direction, they have contacted every kind of an
agency that there is in the American Government.
JOHN: Why do you think they did that?
STEVE: Because, number one --
O I 44
JOHN: Just their own animosity?
STEVE: No, I'll tell you why. No, see, I
believe there is a spirit in this world. There's a
spirit of the world and there's a spirit of God. And
just like Christ, I don't know if you believe in
possession or whatever, what it says in the Bible that
Christ cast demonic spirits out of people that were
possessed 2,000 years ago. And that those people would
walk in the light of God's truth and those spiritual
beings that had moved these people into do things that
we would call insane or border on mental disorders
would, would then return with multiple mental problems.
Basically, this is what the Bible shows.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So David warned these people. Look,
if you don't walk and continue in the truth, the spirit
of the world which you are not partaking of now will be
the major factor in your life. So Mark Broe, when he
walked away, for six months I have got letter after
letter, how he says I still believe like you do, you're
my friends. But you could see over time, that over six
months, seven, eight months, he started changing.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: And pretty soon, then came the
slander and all the rest, the rumors, the innuendos.
And I've got all the correspondence from him.
O I 45
Ultimately, he's going to about every agency there is.
I found that out right away. But we did not care.
Sure, we could have gotten an attorney and gone after
him for slander, but we thought look, if our movement
is of God, let God take care of it. If it's not, why
worry about it, let it fall to the wayside. If it
never was of God, why even invest your time? So, for
that reason, well, he continued on.
And this is where, if you look back at your
notes there as to a number of things, well, he, he drew
Sherry Jewel into a court battle with her former
husband in Michigan. I was there. I came as a
material witness, to, to give evidence as of things I
knew about Mark Broe from the time I met him in '78.
So I've know right along Mark --
JOHN: Do you, do you think that there could
have been some kind of a, a conspiracy on their part?
STEVE: Well, no question about it. Mark
would do --
JOHN: Do you?
STEVE: He would have but sell his soul to
take David out of this world and take him out of the
picture.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Because I really truly believe Mark
was convicted that the truth was shown to him. He will
I C 4.
not rest and be settled until David and this group is
broke up, cause he's afraid that this group will yet
fulfill prophecy.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: But if the group doesn't exist, well,
it soothes his conscience. Does that make sense?
JOHN: Do you think there are others out
there trying to do the same thing?
STEVE: Well, yeah, because in the beginning
people like the Gents, who were part of this
organization, also were with us for some time. In
fact, they were involved before I was, before I knew
David. This Lisa Gent had met him
JOHN: Pete Gent's people?
STEVE: Exactly. Parents.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So they had met him before me and
talked very highly. I finally met Lisa Gent and then
ultimately her husband Bruce. And after there was a
fall out, and David even said Steve, go back to
Australia, which I did in November of '90, and let them
present their beliefs or how they differ from us, and
if they have something, we'll, we'll all look it over.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So, I mean, we went through all that.
It took some money to fly over there and back.
O U .7
JOHN:
STEVE
beginning --
JOHN:
though.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
be disappointed
JOHN:
STEVESure. Sure.
You know, so
Someplace I'd
well, if you
Am I going toright from the
like to go in my life,
-- well, anyway.
be disappointed?
Probably. Well, yeah, sure, you'll
It's the world.
No, I mean Australia.
I know. But, you know, I'm being a
little, you know, everything's just -- and this, Jim,
as time goes on --
JOHN: Hey, I'd never been to Waco before and
I, I think --
STEVE: Hey, I wouldn't want to come back.
would you? I don't know --
JOHN: Well, maybe not under these
circumstances.
STEVE: After living in Hawaii and I've been
just about every state --
JOHN: How about Lafayette, Louisiana?
STEVE: I've -- well, it's funny you mention
that place.
JOHN: Have you ever been there?
STEVE: Oh, many, many times.
I I 4.
JOHN: Have you?
STEVE: I have relatives there.
JOHN: You've got to be kidding. Is their
name Beroux phonetic sp.! or Thibodeaux?
STEVE: It's neither, but are you actually
from Lafayette, Indiana, or something?
JOHN: Louisiana.
STEVE: Oh, Louisiana, Lafayette, Louisiana.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I was thinking you said Indiana.
JOHN: N0.
STEVE: There is a Lafayette --
JOHN: The only thing they know how to do in
Indiana is play basketball.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: No, Louisiana.
STEVE: Well, you've got that right.
JOHN: Louisiana. You don't have relatives
in Louisiana, huh?
STEVE: No, I don't. I don't. I was
thinking Indiana.
JOHN: Oh. A lot of money's been spent, you
know, by David and throughout this whole thing. Like
you say, the trips that he's made and the trips to the
Holy Land and --
STEVE: And virtually --
End Tape #63!