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Tape 96!U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #96
3/9/93
12:20 a.m. - 1:30 a.m.l
92¢-4O Q .
2
STEVE: We all want to have fulfillment. We
all want to have what we can out of this life. We want
to have a satisfactory life.
MAX: Well, just from, you know, the
observations and, and what we're able to obtain, again,
all taken with a grain of salt, it - pardon me, but
you jump from the frying pan into the fire. And it
seems like you've got a situation there where there's
more motivations than pure religion going on. Can you,
can you argue that I'm wrong.
STEVE: You're very hard -- Max, I can hardly
- there's not the kind of connection we had earlier in
the day. I don't know what's happened but it's --
you're very hard to hear.
MAX: Well, I'll try to speak up.
STEVE: Okay.
j MAX: See, I have a tendency to speak low,
speak low.
STEVE: Yeah, the volume is -- even when
you're speaking louder, it's not like, you know, a more
easy conversation earlier in the day where -- there's
no question - I don't know what happened with the
connection but it's just not strong.
MAX: Just, just listen real close, then, if
you would, please.
STEVE: All right.
~....¢3
MAX: I'll try to, to stay with you.
STEVE: All right.
MAX: What I was saying, basically, just
plain straight forward with it is I'm ~ as I mentioned
to Wayne the other night on the phone, I'm, I'm an
investigator. I look around for facts and I look.
around at things.
STEVE: You are with the FBI, though, right?
MAX: Yes.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: I'm a Special Agent with the FBI.
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: And I don't always see things in the
light of or the shade of religion or theological
considerations.
STEVE: I'm sure.
, MAX: And, so, you know, looking in -- from
all the, the facts and the rumors and, you know, and
whatever sources and, again, taken with a grain or salt
or whatever, it just appears to me that, you know,
there's lots of other motivations besides religion
emanating from that compound. I've never seen --
STEVE: As an example, do you want to give a
few or --
MAX: Well, the, the, the sexual activity,
the monetary - the way things are budgeted out there.
92..¢uand the m
know, fac4
STEVE; The sexual activity at the compound
onetary --
MAX: Yeah. I'm, I'm puzzled by what my, you
tual oriented mind sees as, you know, --
STEVE: Your factual oriented mind sees
sexual orgies going on here and a lust for money?
MAX: Well, I'm just telling you how it, you
know, might -- how it appears to one person who has a
background in, you know, in looking at, at surface
issues and facts, you know.
STEVE: Just a minute. One second.
Pause!
STEVE: Go ahead. I'm sorry.
MAX: Okay. It all goes back to that frying
pan into the fire. You made the comment in your story
that you looked -- '
was getti Steve talking to someone in the background!
MAX: You listening to me?
STEVE: Yeah. Someone just spoke to me here.
MAX: Yeah.
STEVE: They had, apparently, the T.V. time
ng near that 12:30 --
MAX: Yeah, that's right.
STEVE: -- or whatever it is.
MAX: That's right.
STEVE: Anyway, go ahead.
a...-1. 5
MAX: In the, in the story you were talking
about people being greedy and having other motivations
besides religion and, you know, I can just look in
there now and it appears to me and it appears to a lot
of us out here that, you know, there's a certain amount
of greed. There's a certain amount of being I
domination.
STEVE: Well, let's speak about those --
MAX: It's not always, you know --
STEVE: Max, let's speak --
MAX: - apparent as a religious goal.
STEVE: -- let's speak about those issues.
Let's speak about those issues, taking them one at a
time. What do you observe, what have you seen - I
mean, obviously, you've never met myself or David or
many of these people here, none of these people here.
So, what, what are you speaking about when you say,
let's, let's take one a time, the greed or money that
you brought up? What do you see there?
MAX: I read and I have been -- I have seen
interviews of people who say that there's one person
that controls the money in there.
STEVE: Okay. If you read -- if you're
reading about him by those that say they have known him
or been around him, if you take a look, there's a book
that's been written. It's called "The Great
I
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Controversy", and it was written by an E.G. White. And
many examples are given through the years when
reformers would rise up like Martin Luther --
MAX: Well, I thought you might have an
opinion. j
STEVE: - like Calvin and Knox - pardon?
MAX: I thought you might have an opinion on
it, being in there.
STEVE: Oh, I do have it. I'm going to get
to that opinion in just a moment.
MAX: Okay.
STEVE: But when -- anytime you have a person
that's been educated by David in this group -- like
Mark Breault, for instance, was the man that introduced
me to David. He was here for three and a half years
and he said that -- he told me he had never learned as
much in his life as he did in three hours sitting with
David, seeing him open up the Bible. This is what he
told me. So, when I met David, the same thing held
true in my experience with him and it's never been
short of that. Mark, after three and a half years,
chose to leave but he still called us friend and he
said he was going to be -- those problems would be
resolved between us. After six months of time, little
by little, it became -- he became stronger and pretty
soon he was adamant. He started telling us he was
a...-17
going to use every phase and agency of the government
to get back at us. And pretty soon he started making
up stories and we let it go. We could have got --
gained an attorney. We have one here. We could have
gone after him for a libel suit, for slander and other
such things. But if there's a God in heaven, he's in
control. And if this is not of God, it will fall to
the wayside and it will be nothing. It will have been
a waste of time. On the contrary, if God is behind it,
if there's a truth that can't be controverted, of which
we open up and share with people, it will stand strong.
And it has. So, Mark Breault -- I, I flew back to
Australia on behalf of David in November of '90. And
we asked him what his message was. This man didn't
have one. But he's continued on. He's the one that
caused myself and Sherri Jewell to take a trip to
Michigan about a year ago in defense of her daughter.
MAX: Yeah. Well, the question was, does one
person in there dominate all the money and the
Indiscernible! and all that?
STEVE: Oh, not at -- no, not at all. I've
got plenty -- everybody here -- I could just go right
through the, the list. When there's a project that
we're working in, we all put in. We contribute what
we're --
MAX: Okay. Okay.
B.8
STEVE: - really convinced what it needs.
MAX: Okay. 4
STEVE: There's not anybody here that does --
MAX: So, my understanding that one person is
in control is not correct? K
STEVE: It is not correct, positively not
correct.
MAX: Well, why don't you all come out of
there, then?
STEVE: We can.
MAX: Come on.
STEVE: The only reason why we're waiting but
it seems to go over the top of you because -- and I can
understand that. I would not judge you because you
lack understanding in what I speak of. You're ignorant
of the things. I
_ MAX: Okay.
STEVE. Okay. You can - you and I can read
about people in the Bible, what happened to them 2,
3,000 years ago. That's not our experience.
i MAX: Are you trying to say you don't want to
come out? I, I -- we're trying to get through so you
can watch T.V. So, is that what you're saying?
STEVE: No, what I'm - no, in fact, more
than that, I love the outside, I love the inside. I
love truth more than anything. I want to live forever,
~...¢n9
Max. That's the bottom line. All my life, since the
time I could comprehend, I've had a desire to know what
the truth is about all issues. ,
MAX: I am really glad.
STEVE: Especially the spiritual world
especially the possibilities of lasting, living forever
with total happiness. If there's something to that, I
want to know about it. I want to ultimately experience
that. So, wisdom to me is having your priorities
straight. And what I've put first in my life is the
pursual of that truth. And the truth has taken me to a
source called the Bible, over the Bhagavad-Gita, over
the Koran over the Buddha sutras, over those other all
socalled holy books on the philosophies of men. It's
that simple. And I have found in that book, by reading
Isaiah 40-66 and Hosea 35 and Ezekiel 20 and 34 through
36 and numerous chapters of psalms. It talks about a
young man that comes in the final days, doesn't work
miracles but he opens the Bible and nobody can
controvert him. And it also shows him to be a, a
stumbling block because like it says in Psalms 40, he
has more sins than the hairs of his head. So, 2000
years ago the Jews judged the Son of God, that we now
believe was the Son of God. They didn't believe it.
They judged him --
MAX: Steve, where you going, where you
~...-410
going? Come back, Steve. Earth to Steve. Listen --
STEVE: And now we Gentiles - you and I are
Gentiles we are now going to be judged because we're
going to judge a truth for our day and we're going to
reject it just like all the prophets talk about. .
MAX: Come back, Steve. Come back. Come
back. You're going too far. Please.
STEVE: See, you and I are in two different
veins.
MAX: Yeah, that's what I said.
STEVE: I told, told - in fact, the
spiritual world is -- _
MAX: We agreed on that a few minutes ago. I
live in a factual world, realism.
STEVE: Max, the spiritual world is not a
reality to you but it is to me.
. MAX: Okay.
STEVE: This world around you, the tangible
things, the chair you sit in, the car you drive, the
wife you look at, the children you probably have,
that's what's real to you. It is to me also but it's
not some --
MAX: Is Judy still real to you?
STEVE: Oh, yes.
MAX: Do you have to share her with him?
STEVE: Not at all.
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C-.....4ll
MAX: Is that right?
STEVE: That's correct.
MAX; Well, that's what a lot of this stuff
is saying out here.
STEVE: I know that and that's why I --
MAX: And that's not true?
STEVE: -- would like -- that's why I'd give
anything if you would have an open ear to hear what
David has to say. It --
MAX: Well, I've heard plenty of what David
has to say.
STEVE: Have you listened to the tapes that
were all -- that he had conversation with all the
others?
MAX: Conversat-- no, I haven't heard all of
them for sure. i
_ STEVE: I'm talking about like, say, he spoke
with John and he has spoke with John and there's been
Dick and Henry and Gary and Jim. I mean that's quite a
few guys, and the majority of these, he's opened up the
Bible to. In fact, I believe he opened up a number of
the seals to John Cox.
MAX: Well, there's been a lot of talk about
it. I know that.
STEVE: I, I haven't seen a scholar in the
world come forward.
~..-112
MAX: pYou said you were happier.
STEVE: Pardon?
MAX: You said you and Judy were happier than
you've ever been in there.
STEVE: Oh, most definitely because the.
closer, the greater the vision becomes of the things
that aren't seen by the tangible eye --
MAX: Are any of those babies in there Judy's
and David's?
STEVE: There's babies here that are David's.
The majority of all of these here that - or shown are
his.
MAX: Yeah. Does Judy have one by him?
STEVE: Judy has a baby.
MAX: By him?
STEVE: I think just for a stumbling block, I
-- you know what I think I'll do, is I think I'm going
to leave that one as a, as an open thing for you. You
can -- i-
MAX: I think you answered it.
STEVE: You may say that but give me an
opportunity to show you something from the Bible, and
I'll give you the answer clearly.
MAX: I --
STEVE: I think I - what I need is a little
hook with you there, Max.
~..-113
MAX: Well, --
STEVE: The sensational is always waiting
around the corner for everybody, but there's a truth I
definitely would like to have you see and to wrestle
with. I know that you're a person -- I really --,I
really have my doubts that you would ever dream we
could be in the final days of 6,000 years of human
probation, where man can prove to himself he can do no
better than those before him. In fact, he only does
worse, progressively degenerates, gets worse and worse.
There's no peace in the world, Max and --
MAX: Well, we all see degeneration a
different way, too, don't we?
STEVE: Well, this is true. But there's some
things that --
MAX: There's degeneration of the, the
family. There's degeneration of the government.
There's degeneration of this, that and everything else.
STEVE: Positively. Sure there is. One
can't, you know, we can't be ostriches, I mean, it's,
it's all around you. Of course that's true. But, you
know, that - all that we're about, we have a love for
people. We have a love for souls, a love for them to
be able to see a truth and not judge their fellow man
but judge the truth. I can't judge you, Max. I don't
know you. And even if I did, I couldn't because I've
»
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not walked in your shoes. I don't have your mind set.
I haven't experienced what you have. That's why Christ
hanging on the cross said, forgive them for they know
not what they do. That's, that's the greatest
opportunity of grace given to mankind since that 2,000
year period. So, we're all given an opportunity --
MAX: Well, --
STEVE: -- to see a truth for our day and
that's what we'll be judged by. The truth we reject
one day will destroy us. That's why you have the story
of Noah and the Ark. Those that rejected hearing Noah
had to learn how to swim but they didn't swim for long.
MAX: Well, I'm accustomed to seeing things
or to having thing -- people point out things to me
from the scriptures or in theology that I'm -- I
haven't seen but I'm not accustomed to, to seeing the
communal living like is going on out there --
STEVE: Of course you aren't.
MAX: -- with the, with the cloak of religion
and with the cloak of theology and -- on it. You know,
it's, it's too unorthodox from my perception. And
again, we have different perceptions.
STEVE: I can -- well, of course it would be.
MAX: And indiscernible! having a great
difficulty --
STEVE: No, not -- Max, we --
f
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92.._...415
MAX: - with that.
STEVET We really don't because --
MAX: And a lot of people are out here.
STEVE: - if what you're saying is true, it
is more than bizarre. I
MAX: Oh.
STEVE: I agree with you. There's no
question about that.
MAX: Was this ever -- this issue ever
confusing to you when you --
STEVE: But, remember, remember pardon?
MAX: When you looked in the window and first
saw this all happening, before you gleefully jumped in
the middle of it, wasn't it odd for you?
STEVE: Everything right from the beginning
to me was a little out of the ordinary. Granted, no
question about it. The very place that these
individuals chose to live, it was a stumbling block in
itself. And the manner and so forth.
MAX: How did they persuade you to leave with
them --
STEVE: It comes down --
MAX: - as strongly as you are, without
going into a sermon, please?
STEVE: Well, there's no way I can share with
you without doing that very thing.
.--4MAX:16
Tell me from your -- tell me from your
heart and not from, you know, a whole bunch of
scriptures.
STEVE:
MAX:
you --
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
are men like by
MAX :
STEVE
MAX :
STEVE
base my --
MAX:I -- because, well, number one, --
What was going on in your world when
-- I'm not into feelings. I'm not --
-- were magnetized to this?
Max, I'm not into feelings. There
the name of --
Oh, oh, oh, I disagree.
Forget -- well, wait.
I disagree.
We all have those but I mean I don't
I'm looking at a picture right now on
the wall that says you are into feelings.
STEVE_ Say what now?
MAX:I'm looking at a picture on the wall
that says you are into feelings.
STEVE: Explain yourself.
MAX:It's the one with you and Judy.
STEVE: Okay. Let me explain what I'm
speaking about. There are men that were called upon --
MAX: It's difficult for me to believe, after
looking at that picture, that you're now in a situation
~.-.417
you're in in there with the --
STEVE: Max, there are men in the Bible that
were called prophets and they were asked by the God
they believed in --
MAX: I'm not talking about prophets. We're
talking -- '
§TEVE: Oh, oh.
T MAX: - about men and wives here,
relationships.
STEVE: For you to understand me - for you
to - for you to -- hey, Max, for you to understand me
and the choices I've made, the situation I'm in which
you do not understand, which you do not have a clear
picture of --
MAX: No, no.
STEVE: You've heard sensational rumors.
You've heard things that are totally completely out,
out of, out of context, things that aren't true, some
things that are true. ,Those things that are true must
be seen in a context as they are which you've not had
that opportunity. Just like in the Bible, there are
two reports - if you ever look at Isaiah, Chapter 8,
there's a report called the Uriah Report. There's also
a report by God's man, a prophet, God's man, who sees
things and reports it exactly like it is.
MAX: It's really hard to talk about Judy now,
»....a18
isn't it? _
STEVE: Would you like to talk about Judy? I
could get Judy and --
MAX: Yeah, let's --
STEVE: -- you could talk directly to Judy?
MAX: No, let's just you and I talk about
Judy.
STEVE: How about me talking to you a little
bit later? They're going to come on with the program
right now. Is that correct?
MAX: Well, that's correct.
STEVE: I've got, I've got twenty-five to one
right here and I see this program's over.
MAX: Like I said, I guess it is tough.
Okay. It is getting pretty close.
STEVE: We'll pick up on this, if you'd like,
how about 9:00 in the morning?
MAX: How about after the show?
STEVE: Wow, it's already going on, what,
twenty-five to one?
MAX: Yeah, but the show's going to keep
everybody awake when Indiscernible!.
STEVE: I'll tell you what, call me when the
show is over.
MAX: All right.
STEVE: Okay.
-...'¢MAX:Hey, thanks a lot.
STEVE: Sure. Okay. Bye.
MAX: Bye.
**'k*
STEVE: Hello?
MAX:Hey, Steve, you are there?
STEVE: Yo, Max, I'm here.
MAX: Good. Well, that wasn't near as long
show as I thought it was going to be.
STEVE: Nowhere near, very interesting.
MAX:I didn't even get to see much of it.
was scurrying around doing other things.
STEVE: Preparing to talk to me, huh?
MAX: Well, that, too. Yeah. I was trying
to read the rest of this article quickly so I could
know a little --
. STEVE
newspaper maybe
MAX :
STEVE
MAX :
ti STEVE
MAX :
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE:You're -- you must be reading the
or --
That's one of them, yeah.
Okay.
It's an article mainly about you.
Sounds good.
Doesn't have --
Don't believe everything you read.
Oh, hey, that's true.
Yeah.1.9
a
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20
MAX: That's what we've been agreeing on for
a long time.
STEVE: Oh, yeah.
g MAX: But it does give something -- raised
some questions we can talk about here or - hey, you
know, it gives me a lot of insight if -- if fifty
percent of it's true, it gives me a lot of insight into
you and where you're coming from.
STEVE: Well, number one, well, of course,
you know, the newspaper or Wayne Martin, as he told I
think it was Dick last night, he was saying that his
right to read and to be informed and so forth was cut
off so, obviously, no newspapers. We did get the
Saturday paper --
MAX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: - when it first aired. And then the
following day Robert Gonzales was nice enough to bring
over a paper to us that morning and show it to us
before he left and ----
MAX: Well, I know you don't get them all.
STEVE: Oh. Well, he's --
MAX: That's why I thought you might be
interested in hearing something about this one, you
know, this article since it was about you.
STEVE: Max, David was talking to me where he
was saying, you know, what we just viewed on Current
~-.4O IQ
21
Affair, of course, they did mention and showed and
talked about the Abrams coming in and --
MAX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- about statements by David. I was
here almost every time David has spoken. I've never
heard him say the very things that they're implying he
has said. But, anyway, you know, that's -- that will
be a judgment between you, God and us, I guess.
MAX: Well, we'll not argue specific
semantics, but I think over, you know, the, the last
few days the comments have escalated occasionally to
the point when we were both now uncomfortable with what
was said. So, we haven't prepared --
STEVE: Well, you know, like --
MAX: -- as like you said you all were
preparing. <
A STEVE: There has been, you know, a great
irritation, of course, because in starting the
communication process of Jim, you know, and you've
heard this I'm sure by listening to the tapes of the
conversations with us over and over again, there seemed
to be a very clear agreement with all back Sunday
evening, whereas we said that we didn't see any, any
problems with having Bradleys on the perimeter of the
property but not within or on the property itself. And
that, and that never --
92.....a22
MAX: Yeah, I've heard that gone over many
times. I
STEVE: And, yeah, you have, but contrary to
that, it's almost gotten to the place of redundancy
that the amount of times I've been called late at
night, early in the morning, throughout the day. You
guys - your men will see somebody peeking out a
window. They'll see, I don't know what, a --
MAX: We just don't want any accidents. We
just don't --
STEVE: But, no, but, you know, it's been,
it's been a one --
MAX: -- one person out of control to cause
STEVE: It's been a one way street, though.
That's the point. See, it's been a one way street.
There's been really --
MAX: Well, we listen to all your concerns.
STEVE: You know, you, you read intimidation
by some of the words we've said, apparently, but on the
other hand, your actions have spoken louder than your
words.
MAX: Okay. Has anybody been hurt?
STEVE: On one hand, we -- on one hand --
MAX: That's our main action. Has anybody
been hurt since this whole thing?
.4O Q
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STEVE: Well, okay, wait now. Wait, Max,
wait. On one hand, you've seen our good intent right
from day one when we were barraged by bullets and men
who first killed our dogs and they shot up where the
women and the children were.
MAX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And they killed an old man, Perry
Jones, who's never hurt a flea or a fly in his life, 64
years old, no arms, no, no weapons, no anything,
standing by the front door.
Q MAX: Most regrettable day.
STEVE: He was killed immediately. Well, not
immediately. In fact, he groaned and moaned in, in
pain for a long time. But that's the way it began.
MAX: A most regrettable day and we're all
glad - -
STEVE: Most regrettable day.
,MAX: -- that nothing like that has happened
since. And those are_the actions that speak the
loudest right now --
STEVE: But the point is - wait now, but,
Max, Max.
MAX: - that tell us our communication is
what it's going to take to resolve it.
STEVE: But the point being, we showed even
our good intent that when your men -- or not your's,
~..-124
what -- the ATF --
MAX: Okay.
- STEVE: I'm the one that initiated the
communication, was Wayne Martin and myself --
MAX: Uh-huh. I
STEVE: - and initiating that communication
and speaking with Larry Lynch of the Sheriff's
Department and then, finally, the FBI, and, of course,
the ATF. We were the ones that said, well, come on and
get your wounded and get them to the hospital. We
didn't fire on anyone. They were all in the sights of
those that were here. These guys were mad but they
were, they were hurt inside for the people that were
hurt and what had taken place. They showed nothing but
goodwill and good intent all the way through. And
right away that evening, here comes Bradleys, here
comes, you know, scne pretty strong words on behalf of
the agencies. he still then didn't squawk and make a
big noise about it. But we have been constantly
ibarraged by, you know, phone calls from yourselves
about every time we go to the bathroom or look out a
window or something, we're to report to you. But you
run over our guard shacks. You move personal property.
You get into personal property, the vehicles in front,
with total disregard. I mean even though you haven't
called us, you haven't followed through on agreements -
~....4I O I
25
- think about this now. Think about this, Max. What
an insult it is to any human being, to humanity itself.
First of all, to come with the intent of murder. And
I, I truly --
MAX: Now, now -- .
STEVE: -- No, I truly, truly - no, no, I'm
telling you there were three --
MAX: Okay. I will give you the opportunity
STEVE: -- choppers.
MAX: -- to believe that way if you'll give
me the opportunity to believe another way.
STEVE: But you weren't there. I was here,
though. That's the difference, Max.
MAX: I've lived in this system too long.
I've lived - ~ '
_ STEVE:_ Max, but you -- are you familiar with
the ATF?
MAX: -- that I cannot, I cannot -- yes, I
know --
STEVE: You're with the -- you're with a
different agency.
MAX: Yes, I am, but we work for the same --
under the same general umbrella. We have the same --
STEVE: I can't believe the FB --
MAX: -- umbrella guidelines. And this is a
~....¢week ago, Steve. I'm -- I really want
concentrate on what it's going to take
safety net that we have and to make it
STEVE: Well, we've squawked26
t0, to
to continue the
even safer.
and asked right
from the beginning about having the intermediators, the
press, about having a line open to them. It goes a
long way to have something like that, viewing, filming,
as one would walk out or there would be a connection
ahead of time to see -- I mean right from the
beginning, that Sunday and into the evening, we talked
with a number of people. And it did not slow down the
negotiation process of which we were ready to get
involved in right from the beginning. In fact, we were
yelling, what is going on here? There are women and
men and children. Wayne and I were screaming on the
phone, saying, call them off. Whatever happened to
communication? Why -- if there was a problem here, why
didn't someone come to the door and talk to us. David
has told all your men_that he jogs out front. Him and
I had been up to Dallas. We had been in, in Waco doing
business as of the last couple of weeks. They could
have taken him. The Sheriff could have come and got
him. He knows these men. He's, he's trusted in them.
And then Robert, himself, we suspected him, like we've
told the story over and over again. And I'll tell you
the details why. But, still, we liked the guy. Is it
r
K
,-.-..-42'7
wrong to like someone that might be here for other
motives and suspicious of us? David tried every way
possible to open up his home and ourselves to him and
we thought we were really getting somewhere with the
man. when he left, we did suspect that he was up to no
good because he said he was going to go across the
street and have breakfast but instead he left. And
then the way his alarm went off with the car and
someone happened to be looking out the window, by the
way, and saw one of his roommates all of a sudden then
move from the water tower. See, this has never come
out before but this is what we saw. And, so, all these
things -- and the main thing, God told David and David
told Robert before he left, what you have to do, go out
and do. Seriously, I'm not making that -- I sat --
MAX: Well, that had some multiple
implications, too, multiple opportunities for
perception.
STEVE: I ~- sure it does but that's not the
only --
MAX: It says.here in
1989 --
STEVE: that's not
though.
MAX: It said here in
in Pomona, California, that allthis article that in
the only thing he said,
1989, Howell announced
the women in the world
141 belonged to him
2.28
STEVE: He announced in '89 that all the
3 women in the world belonged to him?
4 MAX:
._.,..¢
S STEVE
6 MAX:
7 __
8 STEVE
9 MAX:
10 STEVE
11 MAX:
12 STEVE
13
15
161
17 things. If you
18 this world that
19 he can show you
20= here so quick.
21 So will any one
22 MAX:
23 STEVE
24 MAX:
251 in theology --
STEVEThat's what it says here.
Where does it say that? I
The lamb who could open the seven seals
He never -- come on --
I'm asking you to comment on that.
Okay. He's never said that.
Oh.
That's why - do the same as at least
Dick did before you and Henry and Jim and all these
guys -- one thing I did like about John Cox, right or
wrong or whether he was honest about his questions, he
did give David the opportunity to open up a number of
find a man in this world, a woman in
can match and that can controvert what
from that book, man, I'll be out of
I'll more than listen ahead of time.
of these people here.
You were - you had a degree in --
Pardon?
You had a college degree, did you not,
In religion.
~..-429
MAX: -- religion?
STEVE: That's correct.
MAX: Yeah. New Bolt Ph! College?
STEVE: No, it's actually from the University
of Hawaii. _
MAX: Oh, okay. And what do you think -- you
were so inspired by David's teachings that -- well,
what was happening in your life when you first met
92
David? Can you tell me that? j
STEVE: Well, sure. At that time, I was
actually getting ready to take a call in the ministry §
92
in the Adventist Church. There was also an ,
92
evangelistic's group that also had contacted me and ,
also wanted me. They had shown me where I could live
in the State of Washington with Mt. Rainier in the
background. And they said I could be -- my expenses ,
would be a lot. I was -- I would be allowed to travel ,
all over America and the world. And I -- they were all ,
great. N»
MAX: This must be --
° STEVE: Pardon?
MAX: Must be frustrating to --
STEVE: Well, they were all great offers but
at the same time, I told them I was looking for the
truth. I was looking for an understanding of the
entire Bible, not only a part here, a part there. I
-....n30
wanted to see why things were the way they were. And I
heard about this man. So, I came -- I flew over to
California. When I met him, immediately he started
opening up chapters to me. He opened up the seven
trumpets of Revelation 8 on through.. Well, I never met
a theologian that even had an opinion let alone had the
ability to show where in the Bible that subject matter
was located. So, of course, it caught --
MAX: Did he show you that you were going to
have to give up your wife?
STEVE: No, he did not. He never has.done
that, by the way.
MAX: I don't understand that, Steve.
STEVE: Where do you get this, where that he
has showed where I had to give up my wife? I --
MAX: Well, --
STEVE: -- never have had to.
MAX: Well, the film, the video that I saw in
here told me a lot. You know, that, that explains a
lot and then just the --
STEVE: Well, remember what you saw, he
showed you a truth, for sure. But, you know, be
careful how far you take it. Don't go by the
speculation, the rumors that are given in the paper.
He'll come right out and tell you the truth, at the
same time show you why. There has to be a reasonable
M31
-- there has to be a sensible answer to all things and
there are.
MAX: And I can't make sense out of it,
Steve.
STEVE: Max, I would not be here. I would
not be here if that were not true.
MAX: Yeah, and I can't make sense of it.
And that's, that's been what's troubling --
STEVE: Well, no, not --
MAX: - me for a week now and I just --
STEVE: -- and you will not --
MAX: -- cannot make sense of this.
STEVE: You couldn't. There's no way you
could, from the little bit -- from you hearing the kind
of a report and the subject matter you have from the
sources you have, there's never -- I could not see how
you could be judged otherwise in what you're doing
unless you hear from his mouth the very convicting
information in its context. '
A MAX: I've heard it and it's, it's not that
convicting or convincing to me. It's --
STEVE: Well, --
MAX: - skipping around, interpreting a horn
as a dick one day and an eye and a stone. And I just
can't follow it. And it does not make any sense to me.
STEVE: Max, give yourself a little break,
5.,-4
92 Fthough. Give yourself a little break. He's right here32
MAX: You give me one for having some -- one
foot on the ground, Steve.
STEVE: Max, he's right here.
MAX: I, I imagine he is
STEVE: Would you like to talk with him?
MAX: No. I'd rather talk with you.
STEVE: He would - in fact, I would like --
MAX: Just continue, just continue. I'm
sorry I interrupted you. Go ahead and tell me how your
life was going when you got entangled in this.
STEVE: No, no. I was going to say, that
which you're -- okay -- that which
about is found in the Bible. It's
doctrine. And if he can't or if I
where it is and how it relates and
there, then there's -- this is all
has been a loss, a loss of time, a
great CIEVESCY .you're speaking
actually called
cannot show you
if, in fact, it is
for nothing. This
waste of time, a
MAX: Well, that's -- I can see why you
wouldn't want to give it up for just that reason,
Steve. You've got a lot invested in it- And if it's
not right --
STEVE: Well, really, do I, though, really?
I still --
M.»33
MAX: it's really -- really confusing day for
you. I
STEVE: -- have time in front of me. I
still, you know, there's still --
. MAX: There can be a recovery come out of
this. l
STEVE: This is true. There most definitely
can be, positively.
MAX: You can lead your own flock to whatever
you see is the way out of there?
STEVE: I don't, I don't choose to lead
people. I don't choose to be some kind of a leader
where I have a flock or a following. I, myself, am one
that have all my life have been looking and wondering
and weighing out evidences to see what is true and what
is false. I've always gone by the weight of evidence
in regards to any subject, any subject. And that's
what I've done in this case, also, in a spiritual
realm, in the religious realm. Going by the weight of
evidence, where does it lie because no one has all the
truth or but do they? I don't, but I've been -- I've
come to a source where truth has opened up continually
and it continually harmonizes. And there has been
nothing conflicting with that truth day by day. But
those things that you raised to me, I would like to
give you to the source of which you should really ask
K.
92
~..¢n
I
92
9234
the questions and see if there's not a logical answer
from a book that everybody claims to believe.
MAX: I have heard his --
STEVE} Max, there's only -- there's --
MAX: -- interpretation for a long time and
it, it does not encourage me to want to hear more of
it.
STEVE: You -- there's almost two billion
people that --
MAX: I'm trying -- you seem like you have
or had a real sense of direction in this world, some i
real things going for you. You had education, you had
a family started, you had the future ahead of you, you
had some solid beliefs that -- and, and and --
STEVE: Can I ask you a personal question,
Max? V
MAX: And suddenly, for some reason, there
was an earthquake in your life, Steve, and it was
turned around and --
STEVE: Max, could I ask you a personal
question?
MAX: -- and you lost so much of it and you
got misdirected somewhere along the way.
STEVE: Are, are you a spirit -- are you a
spiritual man?
MAX: It really doesn't matter tonight.
_..-.435
STEVE: No, it does.
MAX: Trying to get this situation resolved
Indiscernible!.
STEVE: I mean let's, let's, let's find a
common source. Let's find a mind set that we can,speak
on a common ground.
MAX: I think we do here. Your past is good
enough for me.
STEVE: Is your - are you, are you a
religious man?
MAX: I don't think it matters tonight.
STEVE: I'm curious.
MAX: I'm -- I don't want even to get into
it. I've avoided discussing --
STEVE: What, what were you raised as? You
must have had some kind of religious --
MAX: I've avoided the discussion of that
all along and will continue. I am so concerned with
the - h$
STEVE: Well, then, let's not talk -~ let's
not talk about mine, then.
MAX: Those subjects can be discussed any
day, any time and especially --
STEVE: Well, there's nothing -- no better
time than the present.
MAX: When there are not lives in the
f
92
,._...-n36
balance. When there are not lives in the balance, when
not guns aimed at one another.
STEVE: But that's where - that's where --
MAX: That is not the time to do your serious
- .-
v
STEVE: -- the fallibility is in your
thinking, Max.
MAX: -- religious thinking is when we have
guns pointed at one another.
STEVE: Lives are weighed in the -- Max,
that's where your thinking is fallible because lives
are in the balance moment by moment every day. People
are dying of disease, of accidents, of old age. You
don't know what's going to happen to you today or
tomorrow. I don't either. And if you haven't found
enough wisdom within yourself to see -- to make sure
that if there's an eternal world, you've made the
assurances that you will be there, what a foolishness
and the vanity this short life has been. A few moments
of breathing, a few moments of this and that. No one
is going to remember you and I unless you are a
Beethoven. And so what good does it do for the dead
Beethoven that we -- you and I do even know his name?
Do you understand what I'm saying?
MAX: A lot of us still appreciate Beethoven
today, though.
C
I
92.~....437
STEVE: They do but what good does it do
Beethoven who's molding in dust? Now, if there's no
God, if there's no eternal life -- well, he did the
best he could. He found an enjoyment. Me, I'm
gambling. I'm putting all my chips and all the --
MAX: You have, you have really gambled,
Steve, -- I
STEVE: I have.
MAX: -- and, and it was a long shot for you.
I can understand how you've --
STEVE: No, no. Like I told you, you give me
the oppor --
MAX: - got so much invested in it.
STEVE: Max, you give me the opportunity, and
I'll show you where that weight of evidence is. And
I'll --
MAX: Haven't heard any evidence --
STEVE: - let you get the greatest scholars
and theologians and you try to controvert it. And I'm
not even a match to David who showed me all these
things. If I've traveled the world and gone to places
like London, taken on scholars, and Melbourne,
Copenhagen, Jerusalem, all these places all over
America and these men shut their mouths and I tell them
that's nothing, wait 'til the man who showed me these
things come. And it happens over and over again. I
~...-438
end up being an observer again. I sit back and I just
observe, listen and watch. And it's amazing the way
their mouths are shut, the way this man can open up
God's word and it stays, it remains as it's shown. And
no ones been able to controvert it. All the prophets
saw something happen in the last days. Those days are
now. The events are unfolding. The Book of Nahum is
a, is a current event right now, with these Abram tanks
coming, the, the chariots with the flaming torches.
That's what those things are. You're about ready to
see the very prophecies fulfilled that these men saw
thousands of years in advance and could not describe it
with their lack of vocabulary.
MAX: -See, that's one of the things that
confuses me, is one time everything must be taken
literally with no symbolism and then the next time, a
chariot is a tank and a horn's a dick. And I just get
confused when there's no, you know --
STEVE: Well, let, let me give you to the
teacher that can unlock these things for you.
MAX: Okay, put him on. '
STEVE: Okay.
MAX: But I'm not going to get into religion
with him.
STEVE: You don't want to get into religion,
though?
r
92
92
/
92.a...Q 6
39
MAX: No. I want to ask him -- I want to
thank him for the videotape.
STEVE: All right.
MAX: And see how everything is doing.
STEVE: Well, he'll he would definitely
appreciate that. i
MAX: Well, okay.
Speaking to someone in background!:
STEVE:= - well he didn't say that, he just
indiscernible!
DAVID: Hello, Max?
MAX: Hello, Dave.
DAVID: How's it going?
MAX: Pretty good. How are you?
DAVID: Oh, as fair as can be expected at the
present.
MAX: I wanted to, to thank you on behalf of
all of us out here for sending out the video and to
tell you that we enjoyed watching it. We were touched
by it. There's a beautiful group of children there.
DAVID: I think so.
MAX: It increases our need to make sure that
we can resolve this thing without getting anyone hurt,
you know. And it also helped by being able to see your
face, as you speak, and some of the conviction in your
words that don't always come through on the phone and
»...-440
to - and for some of the things that you said which
were very encouraging. And you said a lot of the
things that we've been saying, you know, over the past
few days in private out here and probably you all in
private in there. It just did good to see and hear the
conviction, you know, that you do want to get this
resolved and that we're going to get this thing sorted
out soon. So, we really appreciate that. Did you
watch the T.V. show?
DAVID: Yeah, we watched the, the movie
there. You know, I could tell my brother there. He's
all - you know, like I say, he knows basically what we
teach. You know, my mother, she's like, like, like,
you know, she's always considered me to be a strange
one but, you know, God bless her soul. She did the
best she could.
MAX: Well, --
DAVII:i Huh?
MAX: Mothers always do.
DAVID: Yeah, she shows up with the old baby
snapshots there, I guess. A long time ago.
MAX: There was a picture in the Waco paper
this morning that shows her leaning across -- yeah,
it's a picnic table. She's seated at a picnic table
being interviewed by Mary Gorafolo Ph! or whoever the
lady is on "The Current Affair".
Man41
DAVID: Uh-huh.
MAX: It looks like they're out in the park
there somewhere. There's some tractors in the
background. She looks like she's too young a lady to
have a child your age.
DAVID: Because she had them when she was
young. You know how that goes in our world today.
MAX: It runs in the family, doesn't it?
DAVID: Yeah. It's -- when you're dealing
with higher perspectives of knowledge and truth and
what happens is is that you'll find the group becomes
smaller and smaller and smaller. But, of course, you
know, when --
MAX: I'm not sure I followed you through
that.
DAVID: Well, I'm saying that -
MAX: Would you restate --
DAVID: I'm saying that, you know, the grace
of God is expended upon humanity as the truth becomes
more and more indepth regarding scripture. The amount
of people that will follow it becomes less and less.
And, you know, sad to say, the scripture tells us in
the days of Noah, there were only eight souls that were
preserved from that calamity. Now, whether a person
believes that or not is up to the individual. But it's
kind of like an omen, you know, it's kind of like a, a
~...,¢42
warning to the generations to come of the forbearance
in mercy and yet still the exact judgments of God. You
know, God never saves people, you know, in a wholesale
manner.
MAX: Now, you said here that you - God will
sort it out. That's one of the statements that I wrote
down when I was reviewing your, your video there. And
I think we're probably all convinced of that, whether
-- but the puzzlement to us is, you know, if he's going
to ultimately sort it out anyway, you know, can, can he
do it with you all on the outside as well as on the
inside.
DAVID: Well, that's what I've already told
MAX: Or his will be done regardless, so,
let's end this, you know, safely, and, you know, he'll
do what he wants.
DAVID: Yeah, see, the thing - our
contention -- our sole contention --
MAX: Okay.
DAVID: -- is that, first of all, there are
seven things that scripture has placed in context for
men who are categorized as a service of God to know.
Now, Matthew definitely made a big statement, so did
Mark, Luke and John. Each one of these men definitely
inscribed their testaments in scripture and they made a
92
f
92
K
92~.-..443
statement, you know. They're trying to explain that
although Judaism rejected at large Christ, yet,
nonetheless, they say and they witnessed that this man
was resurrected from the dead and that he was taken to
heaven, accepted of God although rejected of man.,
MAX: David, I, I really don't want to get
into it.
DAVID: Okay. Well, --
MAX: I, I think I've heard it all before. I
would ready -- indulge in some conversation --
DAVID: Okay. Well, let me, let me say this
much.
MAX: -- that might be able to lead to
reduction in number of guns and safety for people and
resolving this in a realistic way.
DAVID: Well, when you're talking to David
Koresh, let me explain, again, what you're talking to,
okay? You're talking to a witness. You're talking to
a person who says that he knows something that is a
life and death matter for all mankind. And if you ask
anything to me in regards to me, myself, or my position
or my thoughts, you're gonna get a biblical witness.
You're gonna have me direct what my life is, the way I
think, my patterns. Everything revolves around a
testament. And, you know, what I have asked the FBI is
really not a radical thing. Most of the men that I've
F
K ,
~...,-144
talked to thus far, each and every one stated that
they've had a religious background and some claim to be
highly associated to, you know, the Jesuit colleges,
you know, their degrees in Jesuit or ecumenical
colleges which, you know, are religious institutions.
And, so, I've asked them that - I said, while we're
here waiting for an answer from God, they could
possibly speed up things by getting in touch with the
religious personages of their, of their beliefs, those
who should know, those who have years to study, those
who should know the Bible. And that if they could
simply show where the seals are found in the prophetic
voice, then that right there would discredit my claim
as the sole and independent, you know, one responsible
for these truths. And then there would be nobody here
with a foundation. And, you know, everyone would be
well, definitely they'd, they'd come out because, you
know, once my position being destroyed, then they have
nothing really to hope for here, anyway, in the first
place.
MAX: Those people have a lot invested in
you, David. That is very true. And --
DAVID: Well, the thing of it is --
MAX: -- and even more reason why you
shouldn't let them down.
DAVID: Well, --
~..~n0 O
45
MAX: Why you should lead them to safety.
DAVID: - what you fail to understand in
your statement is that it's not a matter of them having
anything invested in me.
MAX: Yeah, they do.
DAVID: No. This is your perception.
MAX: They gave up property, they gave up
will, they gave up self-direction, even spiritual --
DAVID: Well, if you, if you would -- now,
wait a minute, wait a minute. That is where, again,
your statement is incorrect.
MAX: They gave up their wives.
DAVID: That, again, is your statement.
You're incorrect. You've been filled with the same
kind of information that you're telling us to
disregard.
MAX: I just watched the video.
DAVID: On the media, on the media, we're
hearing that you're bringing Abrams in, you're going to
plow through the building, you are going to resolve
this by violence. You say that I've been threatening
you. And all the media is catching this stuff and this
is what you're planning to do, they say. And then
you're telling us that we need to --
MAX: Well, --
DAVID: -- not so much pay attention to it.
~..O Q
46
Where's on the other side of the table, you've got
newspapers there and you fail to understand the source
of this information is not coming from people that will
say, you know, from an argumentive point of view, that
the guy misled me from scripture. They just simply are
saying any and everything they can to deface my
character and my position in this message. Now, you
know,
MAX: It comes down to a lot, a lot of
people's words against a lot of other people's words
and you said one thing and --
DAVID: Well, actually, a small group - a
small group against a large group is what it comes down
t0.
MAX: Well, --
DAVID: The, the group making accusations is
small.
MAX: You said, and we'll sort this thing
out. Well, you know, come out and let's sort it outt
We can have the - you know, everybody have their day
in, in the court.
DAVID: And I've already agreed with you on
that but what you still fail to understand is you
discredit my association with God. Now, you know, the
priests tell you that God speaks to them, yes or no?
MAX: I'm not going to come into that
,-_
92_~l~.447
conversation with you, David.
DAVID: Okay. Well, then --
MAX: I was that way with Steve and, you
know, I'm just going to keep it that way.
DAVID: Okay. Well, then --
MAX: It's only going to lead to a longer
night and --
DAVID: Steve, here, needs to talk with you
then because when you're talking to me, you're talking
to a man. That's my main podium of discussion is the
subject of my God. '
MAX: Okay. But I could tell you that we
appreciate sending -- you sending out the tape. We
appreciated the statements in it that look like --
DAVID: Well, that's my life.
MAX: - that look like you were leading I
toward some understanding with us, that we saw some
commonality in that. And that the milk issue -- and I
just want to say that over the last 24, 36 hours --
DAVID: We appreciate that.
MAX: - or so, we have -- we've taken some
giant steps. We've come a long way.
DAVID: I really appreciate that and --
MAX: That's what I want you to know
regardless of Indiscernible!.
DAVID: -- Mr. Jack Harwell, I love, I love
/Q
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92~....<O I
48
these people. And that, that softens my heart greatly
because, like I say, I just could not understand and my
prayers towards God is why you would want to take it
out on the babies like that.
MAX: In return, the video softened hearts
out here.
DAVID: Well, I appreciate that, too.
MAX: And I think that is a common catalyst
there. Those two, two things, two moves, were a common
catalyst that moved everybodys heart and mind towards
patience, peaceful resolution. And we did that right
here on this acreage between us.
DAVID: Well, you can see the children don't
have horns, do they?
MAX: That's right.
DAVID: Whether their daddy does or doesn't,
the children don't So, you know, God save the
children and God bless the children, you know. When we
-- in good faith, you know, like I stated, in good
faith, we sent a lot of other children out to you. A
lot of parents are concerned in regards to, you know --
it was stated to us that the children would be put with
their next in kin primarily their mothers, grandmothers
and grandfathers.
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: And I know we're trying to resolve
/
92
'-
92_ I.,..4that. "49
MAX: Steps are still being taken in that
direction. There are some, some legal, you know, some
Department of Public Safety issues and backgrounds and
what have you that --
End of Tape 96!
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 O 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 O 1 2 3 4 5 1 1 l 1 1 l l l l l 2 2 2 2 2 2M /|92_ I 92
,,_..4U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #97
3/9/93
1:30 a.m. - 11:21 a.m.
._...4
T2
tape 97!
MAX: Haven't seen Jim in I guess since two
days is the last time he talked with him. He had
another major assignment to go to. And, you know, the
world still goes on out here for us. We have varying
things to do and they're going to get moved around and
in and out and -- so, he appreciates your patience in
recognizing all of us as different individuals in, in
dealing with us.
DAVID: Right.
MAX: But to restate, these last 12, 24 hours
have been, been most encouraging. And we appreciate
it. And I feel that the people in there appreciate it.
You tell us, David, just in that line and I just had
this inspired thought - I was - in closing, if you
couldn't guess - but like you a lot of times, I found
another thought. The people in there that I talked to
earlier seemed to be very concerned that we are going
to come through the door with guns blazing or that
we're going to run over that place with a tank.
DAVID: Well, they didn't get the report.
MAX: I, I don't, I don't believe you really
believe that, and I wish you could, could calm them
just for the sake of humanity that, that we are not
going to lead a charge on that place that will cause
destruction of innocent people.
~...43
»DAVID: Well, Max, can I, can I interject a
thing here?
MAX: You certainly may.
DAVID: I did everything that a mortal man-
can do to communicate with Robert Garcia -- Gonzales,
excuse me. And that morning when the ATF agents were
coming, I did everything I could do for him to be able
to say, hey, wait a minute, let's back off. Those
communications did not meet fruition as we desired but
I did stand in the doorway there when they drove up.
And I, I made, I made it very plain, you know. I
couldn't hear anything they were saying. They all
jumped out and they were all screaming at one time
which makes, you know, definitely - you've been to a
football game and you hear a roar but you don't hear
what anybody's saying, right?
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: And, and it was -- and like I say, I
was standing there and I did receive the, you know, the
first shot was fired at us. Later on heard on the
radio that one of the ATF agents admitted that his gun
went off accidentally. Of course, you know, I, I don't
-- well, they all had their weapons drawn and pointed
in, in my direction. And, you know, where we began to
say where the mistake started, you know, --
MAX: I said we could sort it out and I
.-44
believe we can. I believe we have a system capable of
it with the, with the courts, with the attorneys, with
the media. It is not -- it's almost impossible to
believe that everybody's side will not be heard. You
really know this. You've been --
DAVID: It's a very complex situation.
MAX: around the world, David. You've
been around the world, up and down and you've been
crawling and walking and running in this world and you
know the system and, and kind of how it works and the
extent - you know that the media and the world and the
courts and the attorneys, this is going to be examined
so thoroughly that they'll even know how many times
the, the crickets squeaked out there at that place
before it's all over.
David Laughs!
MAX: Huh? So, you know --
DAVID: Sounds like they've been cricking
every night in my ears. My ears are still ringing.
MAX: You know that, that the world is gonna
see every side of this and every accusation that's made
is going to be tried two or three different times
before it's all over. And that's going to create
loopholes. It's going to create newspapers, magazines,
Lord knows what, into the next decade.
DAVID: I'll make it to the 20th century,
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huh? '
MAX: Yeah, you might make it out of the 20th
century. And, so --
DAVID: Would you like to -- would you like
to talk to little Rach here?
MAX: A little what?
DAVID: Little Rachel.
MAX: Rachel?
DAVID: Yeah. She was --
MAX: Little Rachel or big Rachel?
DAVID: No, little Rachel. There, there's --
there was a lot of kids here we didn't get on the film.
It was only a 60 minute film.
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: Okay. Here she is.
MAX: You got any more tapes in case you'd
want to do it again?
DAVID: Yeah, we'll do it again if you'd
like.
MAX: GO0d .
DAVID: Okay, here she is.
MAX: Okay.
DAVID: Good talking with you, Max.
MAX: Nice talking with you, Dave.
DAVID: Thanks, thanks for being kind. I
appreciate it.
.,.-06
MAX: Thanks for -- wait a minute, wait a
minute, one more thing before you go. Let's see, I've
got notes coming at me fast and furious here. Okay.
We, basically, just wanted to, once again, thanks for
the, the cooperation. Let's continue this cooperation
period. Let's continue understanding each other and,
and don't let this interpretation of, of media or even
if it's a true media statement, alarm you until you've
had a chance to talk to us and put it in a light, okay?
Put a little perspective on it?
DAVID: Right.
MAX: Because we know we're not the only ones
moving out there. I mean, us, the people negotiating,
sitting in here. There's local authorities out there.
We still got news media slinking around. So, you know,
check in here with us before you get, you know, too far
away with, with a thought about something.
DAVID: Well tell them - and tell them I
appreciate talking to Mr. Harwell because that's,
that's like, that's like talking to a relative, you
know.
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: It's someone that I've always
respected here in Waco and, you know, and I wish, you
know, -- this, this is just a privilege maybe we don't
deserve but I do wish, you know, any, any time that
_
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92O I
7
they'd like to talk to us, you all will let him talk to
us cause, you know, -- you know, these, these men here
in Waco, these, these lovely sheriffs have, have really
been good to us. And there, there's another guy that,
that -- he's a black guy, he used to run our beat out
here. I forgot his name. Maybe Jerry or something.
He's a black lieutenant, if I'm not mistaken. And --
MAX: With the Sheriff's Office?
DAVID: Yes, sir.
MAX: Okay.
DAVID: And he, he stopped me one day when I
was down at the TP&L Lake fishing and, you know, he
was, you know, he was, he was - he's a real good guy.
I mean these -- when you get out of the country, you
know, some law enforcement agents, I mean they're just,
they're just real good down to earth people, you know.
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: And I've always appreciated that and
I've always respected that and, you know --
MAX; Well, you have a unique brand of law
enforcement in the south and in Texas, in particular.
And when you find one of those little sheriffs that
have been around for, you know, more terms than most of
us have fingers --
DAVID: Right.
MAX: -- they're going to be a colorful
......4character.
trustworthy
This fellow
days before
opportunity
adored him.8
They're going to be someone that is
and has the faith of all those around him.
was standing around down here for a few
he got on the phone with you. And I had an
to chat a little bit with him. And I just
He's quite a, quite a gentleman.
DAVID: Well, I really love that man and --
MAX: Uh-huh. I can see why you would.
DAVID: He's a, he's a good man.
MAX: And he's the type that would fair to
anybody, give anybody a fair shake.
DAVID: Yeah, I believe that.
MAX: Regardless of where they came from.
DAVID: Okay. "So, here's Rachel, then. Is
there anything else?
MAX: Yeah. You mentioned fishing out there.
What -e do you do a little fishing on your own?
DAVID: I used to do a lot of fishing.
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: Yeah. My granddad was a fisherman
and he used
and we used
Phonetic!.to take me fishing all the time as a kid
to fish Palestine and fish Ray Huvard
MAX: Uh-huh.
DAVID: We used to run Point, Point Royal
Marina off of Ray Huvard. Oh, I love fishing. I've
~..¢~Q I
9
always loved fishing.
MAX: Have you ever been to Lake Caddo in the
eastern part of the state?
DAVID: Yeah, I've been to Caddo before. It
used to be a real good bass lake.
MAX: That's my favorite part of the world.
I'm certain Carnack Ph! Texas or -- where I'd be most
any day if I was given a choice.
DAVID: Yeah. Remember those Caddo bass
boats --
MAX: Yeah, oh, yeah.
DAVID: - they made for a while? They used
to have trouble tipping over some time but they used to
-- like new skeeter boats and stuff, you know, they
started making it low profile, narrow rimmed. Caddo
came out with a little water one. Yeah, I used to -- I
used to worship fishing. It was one of the most
leisurely -- plus you can also look at nature, look at
God's nature and, and fishing, do a lot of things and
think at the same time. I used to love it.
MAX: Yeah. I used to - did they have those
gambling houses out at Caddo when you were there?
DAVID: Not -- that was back when I was kid.
I didn't know anything about gambling then.
MAX: Hey, didn't -- there was some law that
prohibited the gambling up on the shore. So, like the,
_.-4
92 IlO
the offshore river boats that go for gambling, they'd
go out on the lake and they'd build -- cut down some of
those cypress trees and build a house out there on
stilts in
there and
stuff?
was even i
place unti
in here.
ancient ch
years --the middle of the swamp --
DAVID: Huh,
MAX: -- cypress grove and row those boats out
gamble all night long.
DAVID: Oh, no.
MAX: And, and -
DAVID: Did you ever bust up some of that
MAX: No, no, no. This is, this is before I
n law enforcement. And I didn't know that
l the last six years when I got transferred
DAVID: Well, how old are you right now?
MAX: I'm one of -- another one of those
aracters like John. I'm past S0.
DAVID: Oh.
MAX: I'll leave it at that.
DAVID: Well, I just - I've done a lot in 33
MAX: I know.
DAVID: -- but not everything.
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: He says he's past 50.
/
92
a.--4ll
MAX: Yeah. Well, --
DAVID; Sounds a lot younger, doesn't he?
MAX: -- I think he admitted to that. You
know, well, he's got an old gravely voice that, you -
know, he probably sounded 50 when he was 16, with a
voice like that.
DAVID: Yeah. Yeah, it would be nice just to
be able to all go fishing.
MAX: I'd love that. Anything out there in
that lake in front of the house?
DAVID: Yeah, lots.
MAX: Yeah. Do you stock it?
DAVID: What happened was is the, the
original lake right in the front that we built --
MAX: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- originally had a, a very deep
stock tank. It was about, oh, small but deep and it
had a lot of bass stocked I believe 25 years ago, the
same as the big lake. We've caught a lot of seven and
eight pounders there. It's a matured -- it's a matured
lake.
MAX: Uh-huh.
DAVID: The structure is all settled and all
that and, and we, we drained a lot of water out of the
sma - we tried to get this big one - small - I mean
the one the closest to, is we tried to get it drained
f
92.
y
92
,-
9292 _.-1l2
one time but it still had like four or five foot of
water in it.
MAX: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And we tried to seine it but all
these -- the bass just jumped the seine, you know.
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: We was trying to see just exactly
what was in there but there's a lot of fish in there.
MAX: Well, is that what that tree line out
there in the middle is --
DAVID: Yeah, --
MAX: -- in the middle of the lake?
DAVID: -- that, that was the original tree
line that surrounded the original small tank. And, so,
now they got more area and plus, you know, you know,
they've been eating good. Probably a long time before
you catch any fish out of there because when that water
came up, you know, it gave them new oxygen and gave
them new, new bugs and everything else, you know, they
could get out of it, worms and everything else.
MAX: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But, you know, we, we're hoping to,
to really fix this place up real nice so that people
from all over the world can come and study.
MAX: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But, you know, things change, I
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guess, and -4
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: And we stand in a different light.
But, anyway, --
MAX: Okay. Before I let you go, are you
going to come out?
DAVID: Right now?
MAX: Yeah.
DAVID: Yeah, I'd like to.
MAX: Come on.
DAVID: But I can't as of yet.
MAX: Listen, listen real close.
DAVID: Go ahead.
MAX: Just listen and see if you hear anybody
telling you to come out.
DAVID: No, not yet. There's, there's a
couple more things has to be settled. I mean, you
know, it --
MAX: We'll help you settle them if we can.
DAVID: If you could -- if you could get
those priests or those scholars to lay open those seals
MAX: Well, --
DAVID: They -- I mean it's such a simple
test, Max.
MAX: - see, that's, that's the confusing
._....4
II
14
part, see, as you say, and I'm going to say one thing
and then I'm going to quit 'cause I'm not going to get
into it.
DAVID
MAX:
that nobody can
us to open them
it's - yeah, I
DAVID
MAX:
safe out here.
the way it is.Okay. -
And one of the reasons I'm confused is
open them and yet you keep challenging
or to understand them. So, you know,
can't -- my job --
Well, ask John Cox.
- my job is just to say, hey, it's
There's no reason for this to continue
Whatever you need to do in there to,
you know, listen up or do some soul searching, some
praying, consult with anybody.
DAVID: A lot of that -- a lot of that being
done.
V MAX:
for an answer.
try to get this
DAVID
MAX:
DAVID
MAX:
DAVID:
MAX:Understood. Understood. Let's look
Tet's listen for an answer and let's
thing resolved, safely.
Okay.
All right.
Okay. Here's little Rach.
All right. Good night, David.
Good night.
Rachel?
RACHEL: Hello?
.-
younger
Rachel?
before,
to?
tonight15
MAX: Hello, Rachel.
RACHEL: Hi.
MAX: How are you?
RACHEL: I'm all right.
MAX: How old are you?
RACHEL: Thirteen.
MAX: Thirteen. I was expecting someone much
than that.
RACHEL: NO.
MAX: Were you in the video today?
RACHEL: No.
MAX: You didn't get to make it in the video
RACHEL: No.
MAX: -~ either. What's your last name,
RACHEL: Sylvia.
MAX: You've talked with someone out here
haven't you?
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
MAX: On the phone? Who was it you talked
RACHEL: John.
MAX: John, okay. Well, John's not up to par
so I'm filling in for him.
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
~
»92...416
MAX: Did you have something special you
wanted to say to us or just, hi, I'm okay?
RACHEL: Well, anything you want to say?
MAX: Just want to make sure you're all
right, see if there's anything that you need and to
tell you that you can come out anytime you want. It's
safe out here.
RACHEL: I know.
RACHEL: Yeah, I don't want to come out yet.
MAX: Okay. Did you watch the, watch the
T.V. show tonight?
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
MAX: It wasn't as long as everybody thought
it was going to be.
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
MAX: I - you sounded like you weren't
really sure, like, you know, a little bit, - oh, I've
heard people your age say it before, when they really
didn't believe something an adult said. So, let me go
back and say it again. Please believe me and John and
anybody else that you can come out of there safely,
that nobody out here wants to hurt anybody in there,
least of all children.
RACHEL: Uhhuh.
MAX: And that not everybody is going to
jail. If somebody has done something against the laws
~..-4C O
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of the government, there will be a trial. The courts
and all will take care of that, not the ATF, not the
FBI.
RACHEL: Yeah, I know I can come out, you
know, but I'm just waiting for the word from God, you
know.
MAX: Okay. I just wanted to let you know
that, that what man was saying right now was it's safe
out here.
RACHEL: Okay, I know. If I wanted to come
out, you know, I would have come out a long time ago.
MAX: All right. I'm glad to hear you say
that. Is there anyone else there that wants to talk to
us?
RACHEL: Well, most everybody has gone to bed
by now, you know. There's not many people around.
_ MAX: Okay. Well, you probably should get
some sleep, too. Young ladies need their sleep just
like us old men do. So, --
RACHEL: Yeah.
MAX: -- I will say good night to you. And I
hope to talk to you again soon.
RACHEL: Okay.
MAX: Good night.
RACHEL: Good night.
****
problem. There's no rush.
that one in with all the chlldren on 1t
Steve
then.RACHEL: I don't thlnk 1ts ready yet
JOHN: Okay.A That's, that's flne, that's no
RACHEL: Okay.
JOHN: Just wanted to - we wanted to get
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:Okay.
Okay.
All right
Thanks, Rachel
Thank you Bye-bye
John?
Yeah, Steve, one second Go ahead
Okay. Did they drop 1t off°
Yes, sir, they d1d
Okay. We ll send Greg out there,
Greg will be out°
Right.
Okay. Thanks a lot
Okay. Bye
Bye-bye. *
Hello?I 25
* * * *
1'
9 2.
JOHN: Steve? '
STEVE: Yeah, John.
JOHN: John. How ya doing?
STEVE: Yeah, we're trying to get this video
playing on the T.V. right now, so far without success.
JOHN: Without success?
STEVE: Well, it's -- we're trying to get the
-- apparently, we have - well, see, the T.V. we
originally had was shot full of holes. So, -
JOHN: Right.
I
STEVE: -- right now I think we've got part
of a picture here but it's -- there's something wrong.
It's the track -- can I call you back as soon as we got
this in?
phone.
be in the
on.JOHN: Yeah. Could you do me a favor --
STEVE: I --
JOHN: -- as soon, as soon as you're done?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: 1'11, 1'11, 1'11 wait right by the
STEVE: All right. This is tracking, should
front. It usually is at the bottom. Hang
JOHN: I'll hang on.
Pause!
Indiscernible voices speaking in the'..~
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background!. '
STEVE: Hello, John?
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Yeah, we're still trying to work this
out here. Just a moment.
JOHN: Okay.
Pause!
Indiscernible voices speaking in the
background!.
STEVE: Hello, John.
JOHN: Hi.
STEVE: Yeah, we're still trying to get this
thing going here.
JOHN: Okay. Can --
STEVE: This is the first time we've had the
VCR hooked up to it. So, --
. JOHN: Oh, it's like rolling over, the
picture is rolling over?
STEVE: It's, it's going fast. It's not
playing at a normal speed. So, it's very hard to view.
JOHN: Hum. '
STEVE: And there might be something with the
tracking here but I don't see a tracking --
JOHN: Tracking is usually -- it's like the
picture is rolling over on you.
STEVE: Right, exactly.p-~
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28
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: But it -- there's three speeds or --
on some tape recorders, although most of them usually
adjust automatically.-
STEVE = Right .
JOHN: But it could -- if it's an older
recorder, it may have a manual --
STEVE: This is actually a, a new one, within
the year I believe.
JOHN: Hmm. The newer ones usually have a,
an automatic -- they sense the speed automatically.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: It's, it's not going into fast forward
accidentally, is it?
STEVE: No, it's a strange thing.
JOHN: N0.
STEVE: It's a Panasonic Omnivision it's
called. And --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- there's no play button but it says
play and then it's got a slash times two. And then
when I hit that, of course, it's going times two.
JOHN: Well, play, play times two would be
double speed.
STEVE: Exactly.,,.~
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JOHI-IN: Yeah.
STEVE: But there's no other play button on
the whole machine.
JOHN: Some - some times if you hit -- it's
a single button and it depends on which side of the
button you hit. It's like a rocker switch.
STEVE: Yeah, let's -- we'll try that.
JOHN: So, you might want to hit the opposite
end of the switch.
STEVE: Okay, I'll try that. It doesn't seem
-- yeah, that doesn't do anything either.
JOHN: That doesn't do anything. Okay.
Sometimes it's a double touch. You touch it once, it's
play. Double touch is, is double play.
STEVE: Yeah, I've tried that, too. Nothing.
JOHN: Okay. Then roll it back and give it
another roll her back to full reverse.
STEVE: Hey, is there any way we could buy
another T.V. off of you, maybe?
JOHN: Well, I don't think - I'm not going
to worry about purchasing at this, at this point in
time.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: We can work something out on that.
STEVE: Well, we're trying. This is a -- the
one they shot up was, you know, the most efficient oner""
, 92' ' 30
we had and this
JOHN:
T.V.thing here --
It sounds like it's the VCR, not the
STEVE: It does. I'm sure it's the VCR.
JOHN: Yeah; Yeah, because the -- basically,
if the, if the tube is okay, it's going, it's going to
put forth on the tube what's on the tape.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE:
here real quick
JOHN:
those --
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE :
fine controls.
about.
JOHN:
words?
STEVE
times. But theOkay.
If you follow me.
Yeah. I'm going to look in the back
ukay. Is there a front panel, one of
Yeah, that's what I'm looking at --
-- little panels that flip down?
-- but not with the, you know, real
That's what I -- I'm kind of amazed
So, it's rolling too fast, in other
Yes, it is. It's rolling at two
strange thing, there's not a play
button there. There was a remote that came with this
thing but now we can't find it. After what all took
place and we can't find anything, half the things
around here.,---a
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JOHN: Okay. Okay. when we heard this, we
ran out and got a guy that knows a little bit,
something more than I do about videotape recorders.
But let me, let me just repeat to this man, and you
correct me if I'm wrong --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: -- what is happening.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: You put the tape -- you put the tape
in and you turn the power on, obviously?
STEVE: Right. Everything --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Everything's fine on it with the
exception that it's got fuzzy lines going through it
and it's running twice the speed.
JOHN: Okay. And the button you hit on the
tape recorder says play times two?
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: And the remote control is missing?
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: Okay. Push play again, he said.
Which is what I said.
STEVE: Okay. Okay, that's what I've done.
Nothing.
JOHN: Nothing. Still -- okay, hit stop.
STEVE: Okay, we'll hit stop then.7-»-
0 9 .2
JOHN: Hit stop.
STEVE: And now the -- in fact, it's so
modern that it - the word "stop" even comes right on
the screen.
JOHN: "Stop" comes on the screen.
STEVE: And it has a nice blue --
JOHN: So, you got on screen display?
STEVE: Now, do what?
JOHN: Okay. Now, hit now, now you have
stop, right?
STEVE: Just a minute.
JOHN: And the tape has come to a halt?
STEVE: All right. Here, I'm going to give
you to Jeff while I'm taking a look at this.
JOHN: Okay.
Steve and others in background:! That's
what we did - see and this is what brings in -- this
if for the VCR right there. It pauses still. It says
indiscernible! search, rewind. Here, we'll rewind it
again.!
John to unidentified person=! Panasonic
Omnivision.
Steve and others in background:! Let's
eject it and drop it back in again. indiscernible!
John to unidentified person:! No, it's a
VCR.
1/
»92O I
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Steve and others in backgroundz! There now;
It stopped. See, there's no play on it --
indiscernible! But it's got Play/Times Two, so it's
not --It's one or the other, so how do you get it to
switch? _.
I don't know. Seems to me that if you'd press
it once or twice you'd get that feature that said
double.
Uhhuh.
Okay. We'll try it right now. There's play.
Now it doesn't say indiscernible!; now that should
work, right there. What's wrong? indiscernible!
Why don't we either get a regular videotape
and plug it in --
We tried downstairs --
-- and see if we can get it to work.
JOHN: Hello?
Steve and others in backgroundz! That's
true, yeah. Indiscernible! Either 3 or 4, it doesn't
matter, or it shouldn't. indiscernible!
Okay, there's 3, it's come on. Let's try it
now again indiscernible!
There it is. Let me, let get a regular
indiscernible! and get it to work first
indiscernible!
So -- what? You're going to do what now?,,.-Q
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34
I'm going to go get a normal video tape just
to --
All right. Go ahead.
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Hi. _*
STEVE: We're going to try a regular
videotape to see for sure if everything's working right
here.
JOHN: Okay, that's a good idea.
STEVE: It does seem to be, though, the unit
itself.
JOHN: The VCR itself?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Yeah. I don't --
STEVE: It's a strange thing because there's
not a regular play button on it. In fact, when you do
hit the play/times two, it's at times two, it's going
very fast plus there's lines running through it.
JOHN: Yeah. That would happen -- I kind of
like audio video. That would happen because what the
lines going through shows is that it's going across the
tape play head.
STEVE: But it's not, it's not your usual
lines in that I --
JOHN: N0.
STEVE: -- understand what you're saying.,_.-92
Q 9 .5
This is --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- more like you've got a - it's
almost like a snow, snowy effect.
JOHN: Uh=huh. Uh-huh. Hmm.
STEVE: Yeah, it's strange.
JOHN: Okay. Does it come with a remote?
STEVE: It does and because of what all
happened that first Sunday, you know, we can't find
half the things around here.
JOHN: Right. And, so, the remotes missing?
STEVE: Right, i- is.
JOHN: Okay. And there's not a separate play
other than the play times two?
STEVE: No, and I've looked this whole thing
over. I'm looking for the finer tunings like you were
saying. You know, usually there's a panel that you
open up and you can fine tune and, and the tracking and
so forth but I don't find any of those features on
here.
JOHN: Yeah. But, basically, what you've
tried is you've tried hitting just the play switch
alone once?
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And that would be after you turn it
off and then turn it on?',_.~
' ' 36
STEVE: Right. S ~
JOHN: And you hit the play switch and it
still goes times two?
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: Or double speed?
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: Let's see if we've got a suggestion
here.
Pause!
JOHN: Okay. What the suggestion was here
was ~ excuse me -# push the play, play switch once and
then try tracking adjustment.
STEVE: Well, there's -- I can't find a
tracking adjustment on it.
JOHN: Okay. The -- is it -- it's usually
under that little flip down panel ~-
STEVE: Uh --
JOHN: - or it could be like one of those
half wheels that extends underneath.
STEVE: I, I know what you're saying and I
don't -- that's the first thing I looked for and I
don't find either.
JOHN: Okay. What it could be is --
STEVE: It's called a Panasonic Omnivision. __
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: It's a real small unit.
0 I 3,
JOHN: Oh, it's a real small unit. '
STEVE: Okay. He's going, he's going to drop
in another tape here and --
JOHN: Okay, let's see what happens with the
other tape. _
STEVE: We'll eject this one here.
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: Okay. Here, this one's out. See
what happens. And it did, it went on play right away,
didn't it? The same -- the same thing's happening with
this.
JOHN: So, it's the machine?
STEVE: Is it the machine or is it the T.V.?
It's the T.V., he thinks.
JOHN: The T.V.? Sounds like the VCR.
STEVE= Indiscernible! solid blue. See, now
that's what it -- that prepares it for the picture.
So, I don't -- it seems like it's working but I think
it's the VCR, personally.
JOHN: 'Cause the screen is all blue when you
shut off, like?
STEVE: Yeah, you know, --
JOHN: yeah. '
STEVE: -- which that means that the VCR's ~-
signal is coming through or giving it a --
JOHN: Generally speaking, it's getting a4
CQ 0 :8
signal, yeah?
STEVE: Right, exactly.
JOHN: Now, is it possible that there's a
tracking -- instead of a wheel or instead of a knob; is
there possibly two little buttons that one says kind of
like a little plus sign and the other has a little
minus sign over it?
STEVE: Nothing. I know what you're saying
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: 1- but, no, it's nothing like that
even.
JOHN: Oh, man, that's --
STEVE: Strange.
JOHN: -- strange.
STEVE: It's called a digital auto picture,
just seeing what it is, Panasonic Omnivision VHS
Digital Auto Picture.
JOHN: Does it have a model number?
STEVE: Let me see here. It says Hi-Tech 4.
I'm looking around in here.
JOHN: Hi-Tech -- the 4 I think means four
heads.
STEVE: Yeah, I think so. It does. You're
right about that. The only thing I see is that it's
just called the Omnivision VHS Digital Auto Picture.,_.~
I 9 39
JOHN: It's about a year old, we think? '
STEVE: I would say about a year at the most.
JOHN: Digital Auto Vision, huh?
STEVE: Yeah, Digital Auto Picture.
JOHN: Auto Picture. Excuse me, yeah.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Hum. How about the - and the other,
the other tape is doing the same thing?
STEVE: Exactly, the same exact thing. It's
very snowy and it's moving too quickly.
JOHN: Snowy and quickly. Has it been used
recently, do you know?
STEVE: Okay, just a minute. Okay. Nothing
yet. No. Is he going to get a -- just a moment.
Steve and others in backgroundz! Maybe you
should go pick up another VCR -- indiscernible!
That's good. indiscernible!
STEVE: We're going to replace it with
another VCR we have here.
JOHN: Oh, good, good, good, good. VHS type?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Good, good.
STEVE: Same, same format.
JOHN: Great.
Pause!
Steve and others in background:! Okay.,..~
Q I .0
Want to just pull the other one away, maybe?
indiscernible! Yeah. Let's, let's pull the one on
the bottom away. indiscernible! Got it going?
Here. Drop the bottom here. Okay. Is this one already
on 3? And this was still left on 3, was it? This is
off. indiscernible!
STEVE: Okay, here it is.
JOHN: Okay, we've got a new VC, a new VCR?
STEVE: Yeah, we've got it right here.
JOHN: Great.
Steve and others in backgroundz! Which one
is it, Jeff? This one? Okay. You want to pull that
bottom one away then? Okay. TV/ Radio, channel, right
here -- do you have that? indiscernible! Hit play.
indiscernible!
Okay. Good. Now, is the TV back on channel
3 -- for sure? I mean, I see that it is up here, but
-- indiscernible! Not necessarily on 3 just by that,
I don't know. You said zero.
I just said set it there, put in on 3 and
then set your -- indiscernible! Is this on, even yet?
It's it's not. indiscernible! You don't have to do
that, I know. Hit the timer for now. Okay. Hit it
again, maybe, and get rid of all that. I think you're
all - indiscernible! Okay. Good. Here we go.
Let's see what happens.,~.~
9 ' .1
I think that's your channel 4.
Did you check on the back here, or the front?
Okay. The problem is here then again, now I know we're
going to have to get that back on 4 or 3. '
STEVE: John?
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: We'll be through here in another day
or two, I think.
John Laughs!
JOHN: Technical problems are never easy.
I
STEVE: Well, you know, these are to be very
simple things but I guess simple minds make it a real
mess here.
JOHN: Is it, is it all hooked up?
STEVE: Yeah, it's hooked up. Now, we're
trying to pull through the T.V. -- the T.V. itself
doesn't have the normal UHF. So, we've kind of --
yeah, the T.V. is about ten years old, apparently. So,
JOHN: So, you're going in through the
antenna ~-
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- section?
STEVE: Right. We're still trying to --
JOHN: It's gotta be on, on U, UHF, right?
STEVE: Right.»,.~
O U .2
JOHN: VHF? -
STEVE: VHF, Channel --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: - 3 or 4.
JOHN: Yeah, Channel 3 or 4, right. And, in
fact, some of those VCRs have a setting, either 3 or 4.
STEVE: Exactly. These both do, so --
JOHN: Oh, okay.
STEVE: We, we had the other one working but
-- except for the very fact that it was still times two
with a --
JOHN: Times two?
STEVE: -- snowy picture, yeah. We're
working on this one now. I think we'll get it in.
JOHN: Good. Good.
STEVE: We're trying to get that Channel 3/4
signal, but it doesn't read. So, it tell -- you can't
tell if you have it till you try -- there it is.
JOHN: You got it?
STEVE: Okay. We got it now. It's on --
JOHN: Good deal.
Steve to others in backgroundz! You know
it's poss -- okay. Sure it will. I can tell it is.
Oh, yeah, it's working. Eject it. Now, we'll stick in
the -- here we go. The other way. Okay.
STEVE: Okay. We've got it.ob-~
"} ' 43
JOHN: Good deal. It's about 12 minutes '
ballpark.
Steve to others in backgroundz! Okay, there
you go. Okay, here they are. Yeah, it is. Hit play.
Okay. Volume, hit volume, top.
JOHN: There's no, there's no volume on it.
STEVE: Oh, there isn't?
JOHN: No, there is no sound on it.
STEVE: There is.
JOHN: There is?
1'
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Oh, great, okay. I take that back.
STEVE: Okay. Okay, should I call you back?
We'll view it and call you back then or --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Okay, I'll call you right back when
we're done.
JOHN: View it and call me back. Call me
when you're done.
STEVE: Bye-bye.
iii-*
JOHN: How ya doing? One second, one second,
let me switch you over?
STEVE: All right. All right.
JOHN: How was the tape?
STEVE: He wasn't too happy because theyQ--~
92O O
44
seemed to be very misbehaved, jumping on furniture and
all the rest. It was not a sight that we really
enjoyed.
JOHN: Well, I think the intent of that was
just to show the kids-were, were present.
STEVE: I understand. I understand.
JOHN: You know, they, they, they're a little
bit dis -- different on discipline. They didn't want
to feel that we were showing the kids being disciplined
or anything like that, you know.
STEVE: Right. Well, what I'm going to do
right now, John, Dave has got a pretty bad headache
here. I mean one of those real pounders. It's
probably his whole system and everything.
JOHN: I can appreciate migraines.
STEVE: So, I'm going to go down -- I'm going
to be in another room here. I'm going to start putting
together another video. Hopefully, I will have it done
in about an hour. I'll call you back when I'm finished
with it and I'll have it -- I'll call you then to have
it taken out to the -- to the edge -- end of the road
there.
JOHN: Okay. Is, is David there? Let me
just talk to him for about two seconds.
STEVE: He can't, believe me. In fact, I was
just talking to him. He just wav - kind of waved topa»-
. ' 45
me like he couldn't. He's just doing all he can --
it's one of those real hard pounders. He's trying to
do everything he can here if he could just lay still.
JOHN: I, I appreciate that, and I know how
bad headaches can be._ I get them myself.
STEVE: Oh, man, tell me.
JOHN: Yeah, I know. We, we really need
David to work with us on this. I mean --
STEVE: I realize that. Can you give me an
hour, though?
JOHN: -- especially today.
STEVE: Let, let, let's see if it won't maybe
start subsiding in about an hour.
JOHN: You think -- did he take any
medication, aspirin or anything or --
STEVE: No, he hadn't. In fact, since this
all came about, he's not taken any -- from the time he
was shot and wounded, he's not taken any medication for
pain.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Well, you know,
what, what's your sentiments? Are we going to move
ahead today, you think?
STEVE: Well, that's -- you know, so far it's
looking good to me, you know, just if -- even if it's
inching along or whatever else.
JOHN: Yeah. Other than the discipline of,-.-
Q 0 .6
the kids, was everything -- as far as the jumping
around a little bit, undisciplined and just being
normal kids, was everything pretty good of the tape?
STEVE: Yeah. There, there was no -
complaints. ~
JOHN: Okay. Did the parents get to see it?
STEVE: Not yet. They're going to go -- for
them, they're going to go -- oh, except for the part,
you know, of course, after viewing the children, there
were parts on the video, of course, from newscasts that
were shown. And we noticed that the CNN reporter
mentioned that we had been shooting .50 cal. There is
- no .50 cal was ever shot, not one.
JOHN: I don't know how CNN --
STEVE: Not one.
JOHN: Hum. I don't know how CNN got on the
tape unless they used a reused tape, you know.
STEVE: Well, that's what they did do.
JOHN: Supplies are short. So, maybe that
got on that way.
STEVE: Well, it's just the point that, you
know, I mean we've gotten to hear, of course, a lot of
the news and what we've seen --
JOHN: Yeah, you've -- yeah, you've --
STEVE: But I mean that kind of -- there's no
truth to it. They can take and film the entire_.92
,-0 0 47
building or they can even film the ~- you know, your:
guys, the helicopters, whatever else.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: It was never used.
you know, these, these --
STEVE: It was like these guys were
so forth because we were using something that
weren't or something.
JOHN: Hmm. That's so strange, you
don't know. You don't - you know, things in
things never go perfect. That's the bottom l
STEVE: Yeah, yeah, like we were us
John Laughs!
JOHN: Okay.
just say a word to him?
JOHN: I know, I know. Tell him I,
I get migraines, too, so I can -
STEVE: He says watching that made,
worse.JOHN: Yeah, that's, that's -- like I said,
beat and
they
know. I
these
ine.
ing jolly
green giant bullets David said. You know what I mean?
JOHN: Jolly green -- hey, if David's there,
just, just swing the receiver over to him, would you?
STEVE: Hold it a minute and I'll ask.
STEVE TO DAVID: He says, can I just say,
STEVE: He said his head is splitting.
tell him
made it,,. -
O I
48
JOHN: Huh? Watch --
STEVE: That bullet and the size of the shell
that they showed --
JOHN: Oh, man.
STEVE: -- that -- implying that we were
using.
JOHN: Well, that wasn't deliberate, believe
me. That's the -- any thing - the last thing in the
world --
STEVE: No, I know that. I know it wasn't
deliberate. I know it wasn't deliberate.
JOHN: -- we wanted -- the last thing in the
world we wanted to do.
STEVE: But, see, that's, that's the
information that the ATP has allowed to go out because
it, it looks like what -- because of what happened,
they've got to save face. So, I mean these kinds of
things, this is what the people are watching. They're
looking for honesty even ahead of time. They're
waiting to see at least somewhat of an attempt for the
truth to come through.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, --
STEVE: And when you see and hear things like
that, I mean, wow, I mean --
JOHN: Okay. I, I -- look, I've got
something that I -- just handed to me and I mean it's7-. Q
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25really good stuff. So, if you could just slide - ,
slip, slip David's ear on the phone -- End of Tape 98!6 ' 49
F5"
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #99
3:52 P.M. - 5:30 P.M.
gm-s
C I
Tape 99! '
KORESH: - this pounding in the back of my
head and the front of my head.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
KORESH: Go ahead._ _
JOHN DOLAN= Got some good stuff for you.
Scott Mabb, Jacob Mabb, and Kristin Mabb were all
released today just a very short time ago, a few
minutes ago, to the custody of their father.
KORESH: Ah, great. Wait a second, wait a
'1
second.
KORESH TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: GO get Kathy.
Kathy Schroeder. Good news.
KORESH TO JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Wait one
second.
Pause.!
STEVE TO JOHN DOLAN: They went to get her.
JOHN DOLAN: Great, great. Let - put - let
me speak to Dave for avsecond, David --
KORESH: I'm back.
JOHN DOLAN: You know -- how you doing? I
think we're moving ahead. How's, how's that sound to
you? Is that good news?
KORESH: That's good - better news than
at least he won't let them be jumping around all over
the furniture.pa» s
JOHN DOLAN: You've got that - you got that3
right. Well --
KORESH: That was terrible, boy.
JOHN DOLAN: I, I knew this is something you
wanted and, and in all, in all honesty, we don't tell
those people how to, you know, contain or
discipline the children --
KORESH: You know, some of these, some of _
these people think the kids are little megagods and
they're supposed to do everything they want to do and
they never -- they grow up into a society they don't
know how to direct themselves, what direction to go,
because they've always had their way. And they get
into real society that has definite nos in life that
they don't know how to deal with.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
. KORESH: You know, job responsibilities,
routines indiscernible! -- they don't, they can't deal
with it, they never learned as children. So --
JOHN DOLAN: I know --
KORESH: Here's Kathy. I'm sure she wants to
hear that. I
- JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Just -- are you -- I've
got some more stuff on it. Hold on a minute. It's -~
actually issued as a, as a press release. Okay? The
judge released the children to their father and the
court has instructed the state agency to expedite home4
studies. And let's see. Home studies have been
initiated for 17 of the children who have relatives
present. Eighteenth child safe and comfortable. All
children remain in the group setting until the f
situation is resolved and that's exact quote, unquote.
KORESH= All right. Here, here's Kathy then.
Let, let her know.
JOHN DOLAN= Okay. Just okay. Can you
come back on the phone after Kathy?
KORESH: I told
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. _
KORESH: You don't believe I got a splitting
headache, I know --
JOHN DOLAN: I do now. I get a -- I get
migraines and that's what I'm trying --
KORESH; Okay. Well, here, here she is.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hello?
JOHN DOLAN: Kathy?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yes.
JOHN DOLAN: This is John. How are you
today?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hi, I'm fine. **
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I've got some really,
really good news for you.
0 0 5
KATHRYN SCHROEDER : Um hum .
JOHN DOLAN: Scott, Jacob, and Kristin have
all been released to the custody of their father as you
requested.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, that's half good
news, but Brian is now by himself then.
JOHN DOLAN: That's the information that I
have in the press release. Let me give you the rest,
okay? Move Tuesday to place the children with their
relatives. Okay.7 Yeah, I can read you the whole
thing. Okay.
Texas Department of Protective Service and
Regulatory Services move Tuesday to place with
relatives some of the children released from the Branch
Davidian compound near Waco according to Karen Eells,
Regional Director of Children's Protective Services.
Eells said the action came after the agency was granted
temporary managing conservatorship of 18 children on
Tuesday by State Judicial Judge Bill Logue of the 19th
Judicial District in Waco, McLendon County.
The Judge released three other children to
their dad, which are your children.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Mine --
JOHN DOLAN: Now, we've initiated home
studies of relatives to pursue placement -- as in all
similar situations, the first step is the completion ofp-~
92
92O C
6
home study. This process determines the relatives
capabilities to raise the children and will provide
them with a safe and secure home. Said the home study
process requires applicants to complete forms,
financial information, medical exam, and so on. '
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: S0 --
JOHN DOLAN: So there all with, there all
with your husband, to make a long story short. At
least Scott --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Scott, Jake, and Chrissie
are .
JOHN DOLAN: Right, right.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And, and from what you're
saying that my ex is trying to comply with all the
regulations from Child Protective Services to also
obtain custody of Brian? 4
_ JOHN DOLAN: That I don't have in the press
release. That -- they didn't state that.
KATHRYN SCHRQEDER: I mean, I mean you've got
18 children there, but you know, there's really nothing
said about Brian in particular because the three did go
with their father, but you know I didn't --
JOHN DOLAN: No, they didn't go till today.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Today was the first news we had,
so we wanted to get that in to you right away.
0 0 7
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay --
JOHN DOLAN: Now, I don't the disposition of
the -- the further disposition, but this is once again
Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services.
It's not us. ' '
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right. I, I --
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- realize you've got to
go through a long chain --
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- to find out this
information.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If, if it's at all
possible, would you find out the status of Brian?
JOHN DOLAN: I would be more than happy to.
g KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I mean, those are his
brothers. That's his sister.
JOHN DOLAN: »Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You know, that may not be
his father, but --
_ JOHN DOLAN: Wait, what's, what's your,
what's your, your husband's name?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: William Mabb. *
JOHN DOLAN: William Mabb. Okay. Let, let
me see what I can do then to find that out and I
0 0 8
will --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I, I did ask him, you
know, via the note through my children, to try to get
temporary custody at least --
A JOHN DOLAN: Of Brian too.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: - of Brian too.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If, if, if that's what
he's doing and it has to go through the court systems
and has to take time, that's fine. It's just that --
JOHN DOLAN: That's probably -- the best
guess now. This is not -- I don't want you to think
that I'm telling you something in written -- that's
written in stone, because it isn't, but that's my best
guess of what I'm seeing.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I -- if you could find
that information out for me for sure --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- because like, like
you, you see -- you've probably seen the kids
yourself --
' JOHN DOLAN: I did. I was over when the
taping, when the taping was made.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You know Brian was laying »~
on the floor the whole time. You know Brian's not
feeling too good.
0 0 9
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He just turned three
Sunday. He misses his mother deeply and it's really
affecting him a lot.
JOHN DOLAN: I'm - ,
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And if he's away from his
brothers, especially Jacob, if he's away from Jacob
it's, it's really going to physically distract him, you
know. He, he's just going to really be hurting from
it.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. As -- I was just handed a
note. One of the gentlemen who was physically over
there, I understand that he was taking some
antibiotics.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's what I heard,
because when he first left he had a high temperature
and he was throwing up Monday night --
JOHN DOLAN: Exactly right. So what they've
done is they've placed_him on antibiotics. So that
could -- and, and they say he'll be fine. It's, you
know, it's not life-threatening, but that could be one
of the reasons that they wish to care for him before
any release. And usually everybody has to be
physically well.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right. I agree with that
totally. The other thing is if William has returned topew
O I
10
his home, if he has taken the other three with him --
JOHN DOLAN: He has. They've been released
to him.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I mean, are you sure?
Are they still in Waco? I mean, they could hang 7
around.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I'll, I'll read you this.
This is an exact quote. The judge, this is the guy
Logue, the judge released the children to their father.
That's a period and then an unquote, so that's
absolutely accurate and, and the three children are
your three children.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, that's, that's
great. That's what I, you know, I knew he would be
able to do that. 4
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Did all the parents get
to see the children on, on the video? That we sent in?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Do what now?
JOHN DOLAN: ~Did all the parents get to see
their children on the video?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I think they're in the --
they're fixing to show it now. I haven't really, I
haven't really seen it myself.
JOHN DOLAN: You haven't seen it yourself?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No, I, I briefly saw a
piece of it, you know. I haven't seen the whole thing.p--~
iii1
2I O
ll
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Why don't you, why don't
you take a, take a run over there and take a look at it
and see how, you know. I think Steve was saying that
some of the kids were jumping around but, you know,
that's kids being kids, I guess, when they get together
and you know --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, not our kids. Our
kids are usually much better behaved than that.
Usually.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I understand all the
children -- the ones we saw here when we came up and
called back were extremely polite and, and really well-
behaved. I mean, super-well-behaved, so they were --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's good. That's the
way they were trained to be.
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
_ KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It's just that if this
video does show them jumping around and hollering and
screaming, we're probably going to be a little upset
with them, but --
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I can understand that, but
you got to understand a couple of things. I guess one
is that they're not exactly with their parents and they
-- they're being kids -- they're with -- I ~-
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah, I, I know.
JOHN DOLAN: -- children, so --
" i 12
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: When my kids are not with
me, they are holy terrors too.
JOHN DOLAN: We all tend to -- they all tend
to deviate from the norm, you know --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. The minute I-leave
the room, I know.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it would be
nice if you could come out and, you know, be with Brian
and that would be quite wonderful I'm sure and that
would -- if you could be with the other three too.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I, I hope that can be
worked out. I really do.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I, I know David will let
you go anytime you want to so --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, that's nOt, that's
not, that's not it at all.' It's the other end.
_ JOHN DOLAN: No, I know that. I know. I
know you -- but it would be wonderful if you could be
reunited and then it would be --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN= - very, very special and you
know be a nice thing. Be a real nice thing.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It would, it would be
good if, if, if the voice was heard, it would really be
good.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Well, I think they'repu-~
I
IO C
13
waiting for you. And that's what I think, I think
they're doing, you know, and nobody can replace mom.
It's just -- there, there is no substitute. Dad's
okay, but mom's special. You know how that goes.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah. And these three,
these four have really been through a lot. I mean,
Brian's dad, as you know, has been killed.
JOHN DOLAN: I know. I know.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: S0 --
JOHN DOLAN: I'm very sorry about that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It's, it's, you know,
really rough on them. They -- first they, they walk
away from their mother and then they, they find out
about their stepfather and -- I hope Brian doesn't
actually know, but --
JOHN DOLAN: I don't think so.
. KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And then to go into the
hands of, of, of a, of their real father, which they
really don't even knows
JOHN DOLAN: Well, here's the thing, you
know. They know you. They've been with you. They
love you. They care about you. But the bottom line
is, they really, really need you. And, you know, I
don't know how much studies you've done, but I'm always »~
interested in some of these things. You know, the
early years are really, really formula - formulative
" ", 14
years. -
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's why I'm more
worried about Brian than the other three.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, that's exactly right. So,
you know, put, put it in the back of your mind and do a
little bit of thinking about it that maybe it would be
the right thing for them. Maybe coming out is not the
right thing for you, and I can understand how you feel.
But sometimes when it comes to children, it's necessary
to put aside what you need for their needs. At
least --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, yeah, but you're
not looking at what, what is necessary for their needs
as far as God is concerned too.
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He's already stated
what's necessary for them.
H JOHN DOLAN: Well, they're, they're on,
they're on the outside and they need somebody to
continue to reinforce their beliefs that they've been
given and you know at a young age that's important.
For -- to have their beliefs reinforced by somebody, so
that's, that's important and, and only you can do that.
Only you can reinforce their beliefs.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I mean, and I, I honestly
do hope that that comes about, but it's going to have,-.~
if 15
to really take a lot of work to, you know, make that
come about the way that I will accept it.
JOHN DOLAN: And how is that?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: There's no sense in me
coming out there to be with my children and then not
get to be with my children.
JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no, no. You'll be with
your children.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's -- you should --
you don't know the system.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, I do, I do -- I know --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Has the system taken your
children away from you before?
JOHN DOLAN: No, but here's the thing.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: See, you don't know.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Let, let, let, let, let's
let the worst case scenario and then we'll look at the
best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that
you got charged with some charge and that's going to be
awful hard at this time to show that you did anything
except were present. You know? And that's, that's a
real thin basis for a charge. Okay.
So let's say they say, okay, like the elderly
lady, you're a material witness. What's going to
happen? They're going to take your fingerprints,
they're going to take your photograph, which isgm--~
. ' 16
painless, and they're going to put you out on bond.
And that can be done in a day.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: But what -- okay, that
may happ -- that may be, but what's Child Protective
Services going to do? .
JOHN DOLAN: With a material witness?
There's nothing wrong -- there's been attorneys who've
been material witnesses -- held as material
witnesses --
_ KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Have you heard about the
child that was taken from her mother because someone
reported that she was sexually abusing her child? She
went to court, she got the child back. Okay? She was
breast feeding this child.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: They called it sexu --
sex abuse, okay? She got the child back in court and
do you know that the child welfare agency still went
back to take her child away from her again?
JOHN DOLAN: Well, let me tell you one thing.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: There's a different
agency other than those that are going to fingerprint
me. That's different --
JOHN DOLAN: Kathy -- »
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- another agency_
JOHN DOLAN: Kathy, the eyes of the entireu--~
9 O
17
United States of.America, the eyes of this entire state
and all - many foreign countries are on what is
happening today. If you think that's going to happen
before the eyes of the United States of American with
400 newsmen here, newspapers from all over the world,
it's not going to happen.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: They're not here, though.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, they are.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: They're not seeing what's
going on. ,
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, they will once, once you
come out to be with the children --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah, once I give them my
word against, you know, the FBI's word?
JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no. It's up -- no, no,
no. We don't have anything to say what happened. We
weren't there, we haven't done any investigation.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No. I'm talking about
the past ten days. *" A
JOHN DOLAN: What are we going to say?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What's been going on for
the past ten days that the media has not been allowed
to see?
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, no, no. We don't have any
objection to you being with those children. Zero.
None. Absolutely none. And we will not interpose any,--92
O O
- l 8
objection to you being with those children. We're,
we're not in the sense of recommending anything to
happen here except everybody come out peacefully and
nobody be hurt on either side.
We're not going to make any recommendation to
anybody, to any court, to any judge, to any child
protective service, to anybody that those children or
Brian not be placed with anybody. That's not our
position. That's not -- we're not judge and jury in
that. Uhuh. We, we'd be off base doing that, so no
way. Uhuh. And you haven't been charged with
anything. So, please, don't, don't feel that way.
The fact that you could be united -- reunited
with Brian and the other children, give them their
religious instruction, you know, freedom of religion.
Hey, everybody has that right and responsibility and
when it comes to children, obligation too. So, please,
we will not make any recommendation to child per --
protective services. »-
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And, and I you are,
you are probably correct --
A JOHN DOLAN: No -- I mean I am correct.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- I do not, I do not
disagree with that at all. It's --
JOHN DOLAN: Well, you just think about it
and it was good talking to you. How's David doing?gn--
.
/
92.
,~I I
19
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He's, he's all right.
He's not too bad. He's still laying down and resting.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Can he - is his eyes
open that he can speak on the phone for a minute?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I think so David?
David?
KORESH: What?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Do you want to talk to
him?
KORESH: I really need to read --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, I think he's got to
-- he's got to reset himself up here. He's not -- he
said he's not trying to avoid you, but he's just got
to, he's got to reset himself up here. He's -- where
he's laying down and stuff.
JOHN DOLAN: All right. I'll wait a couple
of seconds. I know his hip is --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Steve, Steve would like
to talk to you though_if, if that's all right.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. Maybe you could put Steve
on and we could chat while -
-I KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And, and if you would
find out the information for me about Brian and, and
if, if William is still around and if he is trying to
get Brian. I don't even know.
' JOHN DOLAN: Do you want that? Let me askQ-~
I I
20
you that? Do --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yes, I do want Bill to --
JOHN DOLAN: -- you do? Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- at least get temporary
custody of Brian. If he can. f
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay?
JOHN DOLAN: Yes. It was nice talking with
you.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: I'm sorry things, you know --
such a bad turn, but hopefully we get everything --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: -- get you guys together and get
you back on track and --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, God's in charge, so
we'll see what happens.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll talk to you soon.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Thanks very much and
here's Steve.
JOHN DOLAN: Take care.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John.
JOHN DOLAN: Hey!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'm going to be
working on that video right now, so hopefully by the
time the hour's up I'm going to give you a call back
Ipr-92
O O
21
when we're about ready then. It might not even take an
hour. I've been asking everybody here -- anybody can
get on it that wants -- parents, children, anybody.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, is that right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. T
JOHN DOLAN: So, it's, it's kind of an open,
open taping session, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly. That's exactly
what it is.
JOHN DOLAN: So, well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So if anybody wants to have
their face on there, wants to talk or whatever else,
you know, I've passed it around the entire place that
they all have opportunity.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, that sounds, sounds like
it's going to be another interesting video to observe.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Is any chance I could -- you
could put the phone, I will speak quietly, which is
contrary to my normal --
' STEVE SCHNEIDER: He, he just, he's really,
in honesty, he's -- you know, the wound is draining, he
is hurting that way and he's got a terrible headache.
JOHN DOLAN: I know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He just tried to move away
from the bed. He's, he's, he's trying actually to usev~~
/
92_
r
9292.-4STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE :
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
morning?
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
imagine.
JOHN:
my chronometer.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
been made to us,18
Hello?
Good morning.
Good morning.
Steve?
Yes.
This is John. How are you this
Not too bad. How's yourself?
Good. It's a wake-up call.
I noticed.
Bet you don't know what time it is.
It's probably about 9:30, I would
That's pretty good, 9:24, according to
Uh-huh.
So, how ya doing?
Well, I guess a statement has already
of course, in the middle of the night
from what I'm told.
JOHN:
the power?Okay. You're, you're talking about
STEVE: Of course.
JOHN:
to him about thatOkay. Is David there? I want to talk
STEVE: Just a minute.
~..-aqJOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: David, John would
about the power.
DAVID: Indiscernible!19
like to talk to you
STEVE: He said to tell you he's already --
you've already told him.
JOHN: No, no, no, I, I went off at 6:00 last
night and I told you and I just got in at 6:00 a.m.
when I heard about it. So, let me tell him about it.
STEVE: But see, you're with those people
that have made the decision. So, --
JOHN: Well, let's talk about it for a
second. Let me -- put David -- please put David on.
Let me talk to him.
STEVE: Just a moment. I'm going to ask.
JOHN = Okay .
STEVE: I don't know.
JOHN: Yeah, maybe we can
resolved.
Pause!
STEVE: He says, turn the
and we'll talk. Otherwise, he will
you.
JOHN: All right. Let me
if we can get it turned back on. I
viewpoints on a couple of things.get something
electricity back on
not be talking to
talk to him and see
want to get his
92.
,_...4
,_i
STEVE: Well, that's -- no, I mean he just
made the statement, John.
JOHN:
said.
STEVE
JOHN:
that if he and
we can get some
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
then we'll talkAll right. Just, just tell him what
: Pardon?
Please tell him what I said, that,
I can talk for a couple of secs, maybe
thing done.
: Just a minute. I'll try again.
Thanks.
: One last time, he says, turn it on,
. I really don't think you'll be
talking with him again otherwise.
JOHN:
let me tell him
from that point
STEVE
asked him again
JOHN:
message, if you
STEVE
give your exact
JOHN:
that's fair eno
them myself. D
position when you can remember something that happenedAll right. Let me tell him -- just
what happened and then I want to go
: You won't be able to because I mean
and --
All right. Just, just transfer that
would.
: Transfer what, again? I'll, I'll
words.
Okay. Exact, exact words, okay,
ugh. I don't know if I can remember
id you ever -- were you ever in a
92
92.~421
10 years ago and nothing, nothing that happened two
minutes ago?
STEVE: That's true.
JOHN: Yeah, that's where I'm at.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Okay. Let me talk to him just for a
couple of minutes to tell him what happened and then I
would like to move ahead from there which would
possibly - maybe we could get it turned on.
STEVE: I -- he will get - I mean he
definitely won't do it and I know he won't.
JOHN: I just want to tell him how it
happened.
STEVE: He's not - he won't talk to you. I
know he won't. He already made a - see, once he told
me what he just did and then I asked him a second time,
it was even stronger. I know he's not going to talk to
you. He said, I'll talk to you when the electricity is
turned back on.
JOHN: Okay. What, what I'm trying to do,
Steve, is --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- and I think you can be empathetic
about this is that I'm trying to explain what happened,
when it happened, and to some degree, why it happened.
And then my objective is to get his viewpoint and
~
nI N 22
hopefully get something done like turning it on.
STEVE: Go ahead. I mean --
JOHN: Okay. Well, get -- put David on. It
will just take two seconds.
ETEVE: He's not going - I mean he just made
his statement. He just said what he was not going to
do until certain things happen.
JOHN: Okay. All right. Here's what I'm --
tell David here's what I'm going to do.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: I'm going to go in and see the
commanders. As, as soon -~ the instant we hang up, I'm
going to get up from the table, go in and see these
guys, especially these tactical people who are gonna be
in there and see if I can get it done. How's that?
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: Okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: All right. I'll talk to you in a
little bit.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
~k i * i
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
ad23
JOHN: John. How ya doing?
STEVE: Not too bad.
JOHN: Okay. Okay. Here's what they're going
to do.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: They're going to turn it on. And, you
know, between you and me, I'm sure -- so you can see
the press conference but, anyway, they're going to turn
it on. You've gotta understand and, and I think you
can after talking to me and after me listening to you.
You're a bright guy. We, the negotiators, don't always
have 100 percent of the input, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: They don't always listen to what John
says or what Jim says, you know what I mean? We're
intermediaries, true, but we're not the final decision
makers. So, we're getting, you know, we get some heat
from the, from the other guys. Additionally, you know,
the, the bosses in D.C. look at this thing on T.V. or
USA Today or every, every, every newspaper in the
country --
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN: -- and they don't see anything
happening. So, the tactical guys also have their
input. And it wasn't the negotiators who said, hey,
let's, you know, let's kill the power and, ha, ha, ha,
~...4O O
24
you know. That's not our position. Our position is
to move forward. I think we made a lot of progress
yesterday. You know, the sheriff, I -- as I told you
yesterday, I've never seen a more sincere genuine human
being in my life. And I've been around in this life a
little while. But, anyway, hopefully we can take
advantage of the good stuff that went, went on
yesterday and move forward. And, and I hope you can
appreciate that.
STEVE: Well, I sure can.
JOHN: Okay. So, let's, let's you and me and
David, let's hopefully try to make a day today of, of
some progress. How's, how's that sound between you and
me?
STEVE: Well, that's what we had in mind.
JOHN: Okay. I'm, I'm up for that. They're
going to turn the power on. I'll be honest with you,
I'll be totally candid, I don't know how long they're
going to turn it on for. But we've made a pitch for
them and I think they're, they're giving in a little
bit but I really want to move forward on today.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: How do you feel?
STEVE: It sounds good to me.
JOHN: How does David feel?
STEVE: The same.
in-a
P25
JOHN: Does he?
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN: What do you -- let me - be candid
with me. What do you think we can get done today? '
let's just say best case scenario, what, what can we
get done?
STEVE: Well, I tell you what, the way he
works is as soon as he sees substance in what you and I
are speaking about, the simple thing that took place
already, and the reaction that you were talking about
turning it back on, then he'll start opening his mouth
and he'll start communicating again but he's got
different things in mind and, you know --
JOHN: Give me, give me a glue. Like, you
know, you don't have to tell me exactly but just, just
give me a rough idea.
STEVE: Well, I was going to let him - I was
going to let him speak for himself.
JOHN: Oh, I know that. I appreciate that.
But, you know, you're like the number two guy and I've
been number two on other occasions and I'm about number
47, but I've got an insight into some people. So, just
give me an idea. I mean, you know, there's no --
nothing written in stone here.
STEVE: Well, I'll tell you what, I'll
communicate more with you as soon as we see what we're
92
,_
,
~._...426
speaking about take place.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: Sounds good to me.
STEVE: And we'll turn on the television at
10:30 to see just what's being stated.
JOHN: Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully, we'll see
a flicker of -- in the light bulbs before that.
upset,
people
to you
later.STEVE: All right.
JOHN: And if, if we don't, I'm going to be
personally, not with you but with some other
8STEVE: Okay. We will definitely be talking
soon as there's something happening.
JOHN: Okay. I'll talk to you a little bit
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Bybye. okay.
i'*i'*
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Did you get it?
STEVE: Did I - yes.
JOHN: Get the power?
STEVE: It's on now.
JOHN: Thank goodness. Okay. How about if I
talk to you and David after the press conference is on
~_-vi27
STEVE: Okay, sounds good.
JOHN: -- so you get a chance to watch it.
STEVE: We'll do that.
JOHN: Very good. Byebye.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
iiii
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Steve, John.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt the press
conference and I wouldn't do it unless it was a semi-
urgent matter. There's a black male on the back of the
property that came out of your property by the machine
shop.
STEVE: Uh-huh. I know nothing about it.
JOHN: There's two or three dogs with him.
STEVE: There are?
JOHN: Yeah. If you could kindly ask him to
step inside, it would be appreciated.
STEVE: Okay. We'll see what we can do.
JOHN: Thanks, Steve.
STEVE: Sure.
* * * *
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Steve, John.
_ u28
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Got two more males, I guess, went out
and came back in, I guess. And I'm sorry about this --
STEVE: Maybe they went out to tell -- I '
don't know - I -- has there been --
JOHN: They're back in.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Okay, good.
JOHN: Talk to you.
STEVE: Bye.
* 1' * i-
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Steve, John.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: I just got a call from the guys
outside. They're seeing a guy out on the construction
side dressed in black. That's one of the guys you said
you'd bring back in.
STEVE: There's a guy out there dressed in
black?
DAVID: No.
STEVE: No, there is not.
JOHN: Yeah, there is. Uh, hold on, let me
give you the exact location.
STEVE: Apparently what happened, someone
-..-4C
29
went out there to feed the chickens. They've been
doing that every day since we've been here, by the way.
JOHN: On the construction side, the water
tower side?
STEVE: On theconstruction side of the water
tower side? I don't believe anyones way out there,
are they? g
DAVID: No.
STEVE: No. What, what's going on with these
guys?
JOHN: I don't know. They got a guy dressed
in black and --
STEVE: He's a black --
JOHN: -- they're certain about him. He's
got, he's got that --
STEVE: He's, he's a, he's a black man but I
don't know -- they're saying he's not dressed in black.
JOHN: It's a black man?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: He's on
on the side by the water
side.
STEVE: And if
close, he's not armed or
chickens as he's usually
he has since --- so, okay. Supposedly, he's
tower and by the construction
they, if they look at him
anything. He's feeding the
-- they told me he went out as
~...4 /
JOHN: The chickens are -- aren't the
chickens on the other side?
STEVE: Yes. So, I don't know what they're
talking about. Is he on the other side of -- like
where the construction side is?
DAVID: No.
STEVE: No, not at all, positively not.
JOHN: Hold on, let me check.
STEVE:
Pause!
JOHN: Okay. See, what they're seeing there
they're seeing a guy coming out and they didn't realize
he was coming out and he got them all jittery. So, lf,
if we're going to feed the chickens, just, just give meOkay.
a call and let me know.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
STEVE:
JOHN:We'll, we'll keep on as usual.
Okav. Great
Okay.
Thank you.
Bye.
it-*
Hello?
Steve?
John.
Hello, John.
Did you guys*
get to watch the press
a.-4___T__77
31
conference?
STEVE: That's what we were doing just now.
JOHN: Good, good. Well, it's over now, as
you know. Is David there, please?
STEVE: Just a moment.
JOHN: Thank you.
Pause!
STEVE: Okay, here he is.
JOHN: Thank you.
DAVID: Good morning, John.
JOHN: Good morning, David, how are you
today?
DAVID: We're fair to middling, so to speak.
JOHN: That's good. That's good. I saw your
tape, and you look good.
DAVID: Thanks: Yeah, I started bleeding
after that one.
JOHN: Yeah, I could see a little bit of the
DAVID: One of the kids jumped on me wrong.
JOHN: Oh, geez. Great looking kids, man.
DAVID: Yeah, thanks.
JOHN: They are just --
DAVID: Now, now, now you, now you know why
I'm so obstinate, huh?
JOHN: They're beautiful. They're reallyl
~....432
terrific.
DAVID: They're my whole life.
JOHN: I know. I'm looking forward to, to
you and I taking advantage of some of the good stuff,
as they may, maybe say, the good karma that developed
yesterday and, hopefully, we can just move on a little
bit from where we've been. How do you feel about that?
DAVID: Well, like I said, you know, we're
asking you guys one thing and it's getting twisted up
from time to time.
What, what now, Steve? Oh, okay. All right.
Last night Max was talking with one of the --
some of the other kids that weren't on that video film.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And she said that she wanted she
had a little message she wanted relayed on the film
cause, see, what -- she told him that, that she would
go ahead and we'd continue another film today to where
some other kids could get on there.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: You know, I guess, I guess that way
you all get to take a look at them, see they're real
people.
JOHN: Sure, oh, yeah, that really portrays
that very well. And, in fact, we have a tape with two
segments of, of the kids that are out, and we'd like to
......4
/
92.
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33
send that in.
DAVID: Oh, yeah, the, the parents would love
that.
JOHN: Great. Great. And we'll double check
it to make sure it's not erased.
DAVID: Okay. Yeah. Where's, where's,
where's Jamie right now being kept, do you know? Is he
with Social Services or --
JOHN: I believe --
DAVID: That's the little -- that's the
little child that has the handicap.
JOHN: Yeah. He, he is separate because of
the handicap.
DAVID: Right.
JOHN: And I can double check the location.
I honestly don't know this instant but I will find out.
DAVID: Oh, we know he's in good care because
JOHN: Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I
was down there myself and the funny part of the
videotape is, I mean just for your own information, is
the brown carpeting came out pink but that's, that's
video when you don't have the light set right or
something like that.
DAVID: Oh, okay.
JOHN: But it's a, it's a very wholesome
~..4atmosphere, you know.
sent the snapshots.
they're at.
DAVID: Okay.
DAVID: Right.
DAVID: Good.
JOHN: So, what do you
is is like I say, you know, it's
misunderstand my, my podium when
religion. They don't understand
I've simply, I've simply offeredO
34
DAVID: Is Mrs. Cohen in it or anything or is
she the one taking care of these kids or just, just --
we noticed that they were in a house when you sent, '
JOHN: No, no. It's, it's, it's a housing
like thing. You walk in, you go through a kitchen and
then into kind of like an entrance way/hallway, foyer
you might call it and then this big living room and
it's Child Protective Service. And that's where
JOHN: And they're all together. They really
seem happy. They're they interact as you probably
can understand perfectly because --
JOHN: -- they've been together so long. So,
I think it's a real healthy thing.
think you and I can -
how we can -- you and I can go forward today?
DAVID: Well, I mean our, our only position
-- people seem to
it comes to my
what it is. And I've,
two avenues whereby
-.....o35
this could be resolved without God answering me. And
that is, first of all, if you could take away the
foundation from these people, the foundation they stand
on being that no one can reveal the seals but the lamb.
Do you understand that?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: That's our first position. Scripture
tells us very clearly that no one but the lamb can
reveal these seals.
JOHN: I understand that. I understand that.
DAVID: Now, that becomes --
JOHN: And, certainly, I don't know that's
possible for us to reveal except for the lamb who can
reveal the seals but --
DAVID: Okay. So, what I've been doing with,
with Dick and, and Henry and, and, you know, John Cox
and all that, all the way back -- I guess from Jim and
Gary, too, is that I've been offering them an
opportunity to, to get with their ministers and their,
and their priests and stuff who are supposed to be, you
know, ordained servants of God.
JOHN: Uh-uh.
DAVID: My God does talk with them, they
profess. And to be able to, to show this mystery of
God that is supposed to be for the servants to know.
And, of course, you know each time what's happened up
92.-1K
I
36
to the third seal is that they failed to be able to
show from theprophecies where these subjects are given
in detail. So, I have, in turn, showed them and not a
one of them has disagreed that the seals contain thei
revelation, have not been, you know, shown forth in the
prophetic voice of the prophets.
JOHN: I understand that and I'm sure that
they haven't done too well in their research so far and
probably, you know, to be quite candid, you're a heck
of a lot heads up - more heads up on that than they
are. But I'm
it.not saying that they're not working on
DAVID: Right. Well, --
JOHN: But on the same -- in the same thing,
that being set aside for a moment, I think that as far
as you and I go and you and I can move forward with
some of the little problems that we have and thatks
aside from them working on, on the research which I
know they are
the thing, me
you, you have
and Steve and
perfect chaindoing this very moment. But my side of
personally, is that you can understand --
the perfect chain of command. It's you
you get things done. We don't have the
of command here. There's an awful lot
of folks, including way back on the east coast. So, if
you and I, I think, can show some personal progress
today, I think it would go a long way in, in not only
r
92
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37
helping these guys do their research but just the whole
impetus of things moving forward.
DAVID: Oh, we understand what you're saying.
JOHN: Okay. '
DAVID: So, when are you going to send this
tape?
JOHN: Okay. I've got it sitting in front of
me. It's a, it's a, it's sitting in a Polaroid,
Polaroid brand container right here.
DAVID: Okay. Steve, --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: ~- are you ready to go ahead and tape
Audrey and Rachel, some of the kids?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Okay. We're going to go ahead and
start making this tape.
_ JOHN: Okay. Let me make a proposal to you
and I think you know what it is. You're a very, very
bright man and a very charismatic man, I may -- might
add. I was extremely impressed with your, your
personal viewpoints last night. And you're, you're a
very moving individual. I mean that's a straight fact.
Your, your ministry, to be quite candid, you know, has,
has a lot going for it in the sense of your charisma.
You're a very charismatic guy. But let me, let me say
this, let me suggest this to you. You know what I'm
,-~...¢. C
38
going to say before I say it. I'm not going to let it
be any surprise. How about if when we send in the tape
you send in the tape with somebody from in there? That
would be a great boom for us to move forward. '
DAVID: Well, what you guys fail to
understand --
JOHN: I know. I know. Just help us out, to
show that our side --
DAVID: I cannot subject another mind to you
unless that mind is willing to go.
JOHN: I understand that. I understand that
completely. I don't argue with that and I wouldn't go
against your wishes. The only thing I was thinking is
that --
DAVID: Well, why don't, why don't you talk
to every individual here and, and you relate this
desire to them. As I said before, see, their faith is
locked in.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Let me, let me explain. When an
individual or a person, free thinking individual, free
moral agent desires to acknowledge the higher
principles of God, they acknowledge the testaments of
the prophets, they acknowledge, Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John, okay? Now, we're talking about a higher
personage when we're talking about Christ, aren't we?
92 viO O
39
JOHN: Well, we --
DAVID: We're talking about a reality --
JOHN: We're talking supreme being here, you
know. '
DAVID: Okay, supreme being.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: All right. And the knowledge of that
supreme being is, is first and foremost in the hearts
of all those who desire redemption, who desire life
beyond this world, right?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay. So, so, that's the general
acceptance of all religions under his name, under
Christ, be it the Catholic all the way down to what
other organization that believes in his name. So, you
know, naturally a person in the world is gonna be
committed to serving Christ first and then the other
power secondarily, right?
JOHN: No question, no question about it.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: But by the same token, you know, maybe
- I know that there was a person by the name of the
Julie in there the other day who, who felt that perhaps
her brother was right and that she wanted to hook up
with her brother at some time. If she could make the
sacrifice and, like you said, not everybody wants to
~....477 92
40
leave --
again.DAVID: Now, John, let me explain something
You are twisting her words and this is one of
the main things she was telling me last night. You "
know, she always talks the way she talks every day.
JOHN: I see.
DAVID: You know, she used to be -- she used
to be a drug addict.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay. She always talks like a, like
a whining kind of slow, you know, she's a, she's a
Mexican girl.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And the thing of it was is that, you
know, when she came here a couple of years ago, we
assisted her and helped her out of her -- out of her
problem. She was going to town for a while to -- what
was that program, Steve? McClinan County College.
Anyway,and she, and she had to quit that because
everybody that was going to that was in drugs. And
that's one of the main things and her weaknesses that
she was
has the
she was
talk to
And sheinvolved in at that time. Now, she naturally
slow slur empathetic type of speech. And what
trying to tell you was is that she wanted to
her brother. You know, she loves her brother.
kept referring back to the fact that from what
I~.-4O Q
41
she's seen thus far, she doesn't yet quite have enough
trust in you, the system, just to hurl herself out of
here into your hands.
JOHN: I understand.
DAVID: Now, you see, but, but it seems like
a lot of connotations that are made is that you all
pick up on these and you develop this great big picture
which is really not there in the mind of the individual
that's talking to you.
JOHN: I appreciate that and that's --
DAVID: It's --
JOHN: -- that's probably what happened,
okay. -
DAVID: But you can -- but you can talk to
her and her children anytime you want.
JOHN: Okay.
e DAVID: Nobody --
JOHN: Okay. I stand corrected, then. I
stand corrected on that point. So, --
DAVID: So, nobody is being here held against
their will.
JOHN: I stand cor --
DAVID: What I would desire, though, is
that, you know, you have all the opportunity to talk to
any and all individuals you wish to talk to --
H JOHN: Okay.~777-7777.7 ? _ _ _ _
F
92
'_
92.92..-4DAVID: - because, you see, the, the42
doctrine, the seals is something that has to be shown
from the prophetic voice.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Not my opinions, not your opinions.
The subject matter is in preview of revelation.The
seven seals of Revelation, Chapter 6, are previews,
which do not give the specifics.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: Whereas the prophetic writers in
writing of these subjects which they foresaw an event
of the latter days, they give you the details.And,
so, that's why when I try to present these subjects in,
in simplicity, you know, I'll ask, I'll ask the
negotiators, those who are willing to bear with
simply show me where these symbols of the white
red horse, black horse, toe horse,
and so forth are found in the prophetic subjectthose of the
of which so far they failed to do.
JOHN: Okay. Okay. I understand whatme, to
horse,
alter
matter,
happened with Julie, and I can readily see that, you
know, after being told what she had
readily see how that happened. How about ~-
DAVID: Would you like to talk to her
JOHN: No, sir, no, sir.
who is an infant who doesn't reallysaid. And I
again?
How about someone
have, in a sense,
-....¢I
43
you know, reasoning power or -- a pre-age seven. And
then you and I can move forward on this while the
research is being done on the seals. It would be so
impetus to show, hey, this situation is moving ahead;
The negotiators really do have a point with David.
They are pushing forward on the research on the seals.
And at the same time he is saying, I'm interested in
what they're doing. How, how does that sound?
DAVID: You're asking us, John, to violate
our God-given conscience at the present time to adhere
to what your desiring us to do. Now, you see, you keep
pushing us and pushing us in an area to where we've
already told you, it's not our desire to die here.
JOHN: No, no, I appreciate that.
DAVID: It's not our desire to be mutilated
and destroyed by your massive weapons. It is our
desire in our conscience to be able to know and to
confirm or to reconfirm our position with God.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Uhhuh.
DAVID: Now, you may not realize but very few
people in this generation have their faith tested to
such an extremity as we now presently are.
JOHN: Well, you know what -- you know what
this test is doing? This test is bringing your message
before the entire United States of America, Australia,
England, New Zealand, and I can't tell you how many
~.-edother broadcast services that are out here.44
DAVID: John, the message that I teach is not
being presented.
JOHN: No, no, no.
DAVID: The, the affect which is highly
misinterpreted of our situation is being presented.
You know, David Koresh, the fanatic. David Koresh,
the, the -- what, what's, what's the statement they're
saying over there on the T.V.? Antagonist. David
Koresh, the - anyway, --
JOHN: No --
DAVID: See this is what's being presented --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- around the world right now.
JOHN: That's -- well, but you do have a lot
of people saying, what is this guy about? So, in a
sense that is -- additionally, we have demonstrators.
There's pictures on the front page of the demonstrators
that are 100 percent in your favor, saying the right to
bear arms should be maintained and things like this.
And that's all - you know --
» DAVID: You know, all these things are legal.
I mean --
JOHN: Absolutely.
DAVID: In every, in every gun show and every
deal that we've dealt with, we filled out a yellow
~...-nQ I
45
sheet.
JOHN: Unquestionably. There's, there's
absolutely no argument about this. You know, like I
told Steven, I may have mentioned it to you, let's face
it, the government has a big case, a big problem with
this case. There's an awful lot of sympathy for you,
for the deceased individuals, the ¥ and a lot of anger
at ATF in, in all parts of the country. And it's --
you know about the NRA as well as I do. It is the
strongest lobby in Washington, D.C. So, there's a lot
of emotion running high for you. I mean you've got a
lot going for you. And it would help us in dealing
with the people on the east coast if we could say, hey,
this guy has a message to get out as far as what
happened to him and he's a reasonable man and he's
helping us to deal with it. That's all I'm saying.
That's all I'm saying.
DAVID: So, you're just simply asking me to
use a chain of command, which I really don't have, in
telling an individual to send their child out?
JOHN: Well, I'm asking if there's some way
we could get somebody released today. If you have an
elderly woman who'd volunteer, not -- for the interest
of the cause or you have somebody that maybe is not as
healthy as they should, should or could be, that would
be a great benefit to my boss and --
,
92' I
46. DAVID: And you're going to -- and you're '
going to go ahead and arrest them like they've already
done?
JOHN: No, no. They've been released on '
bond, the elderly ones.
DAVID: Exactly, which means they have been
arrested and charged.
JOHN: They've been charged as material
witnesses, was just - is that - they're only there as
witnesses. They're not charged against -- as --
DAVID: They are charged. Gary Kocher, our
former attorney, was the one that had to go out and put
up the bond for them. Now, let's, let's see #- here,
again, is another way that, you know, --
JOHN: No, it's material witness. It's not
like you're going to be tried.
_ DAVID:_ Look, anytime --
JOHN: Material witnesses --
DAVID: -- someone has to pay money to get
out of custody, they are guilty of something. They are
penalized and punished for a crime that they are
suspected to be a part of.
JOHN: Well, --
DAVID: I mean be honest with me, John.
JOHN: Yes, I am honest. And I know the
system and the bond money is returned. The bond money
C
I"
92_
92. . 47
is definitely returned when they make their ~
appearances.
DAVID: Well, what does that mean that they
had to pay a bond? .
JOHN: Well, under the federal system, when
you put up the money, you put up 10 percent. They
don't -- the federal system doesn't use bail bondsman.
So, you put up 10 percent of the money. You make your
appearances and the money is returned to you. That I
know for a fact because I can speak for the federal
system. _ ~
DAVID: which means they've been arrested.
JOHN: Under material witness, they're held,
they're put out on bond, they make their appearances
and their money -- a lot of times the bonds are what we
call OR, on recognizance.
, DAVID: Okay. Look, instead of, instead of
getting around the --
JOHN: Yeah, I know.
DAVID: -- reality, let's --
JOHN: Let's talk about reality.
DAVID: -- let's go ahead and -- okay. You
want to send this tape. "
JOHN: I've got the tape, yeah.
DAVID: And you don't want to --
JOHN: I think you'll -- I think you'll like
Y
48
it.
DAVID: You don't, you don't want us to send
the tape unless --
JOHN: Well, why not? Absolutely.
DAVID: -- unless someone goes with it,
though.
JOHN: No, no, no, no, that's not --
DAVID: That's --
_ JOHN: -- no, no, no, happy to have the tape
Everybody that I saw in the room that saw the tape was
End of Tape #97!