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Dr. Frank Shallenberger: Melatonin and Ozone Therapies (Dr. Casey Peavler)
YouTube video by Dr. Frank Shallenberger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWb_ML4dEqY). Transcript is the auto-caption track — verbatim ASR, not a certified transcript.
So, I have a wonderful guest today, Dr. Frank Shalenburgger, who I just heard on a podcast recently called the father of ozone, who I really wanted to have a discussion with today to talk about integrative oncology. And I just thought it'd be best to have him introduce himself and tell me who he is and how he ended up getting interested in integrative oncology through his journey. >> Well, okay, uh, Casey, thanks for having me first of all. appreciate it. Appreciate it getting the word out. Um, so looking forward to this conversation. >> And, uh, just for the audience, uh, let me just say, um, I graduated from the University of Maryland. I'll make this short, but I graduated from the University of Maryland way back in 73. I've been practicing medicine ever since. I became a renegade and turned to uh looking at alternative sorts of things in 1981 due to a couple of experiences I had and ever since then that's been my endeavor. My endeavor has been to uh you know you utilize the conventional pharmaceutical approach as kind of a last resort and kind of try to get to the bottom of things and what's going on and uh and and you know use drugs only if I can't find something else that works a little bit better. Uh and um I got into cancer maybe 20 years ago. Uh and uh we can talk a little bit about that that adventure. Um and right now I do treat a lot of cancer patients. Um I do it almost kind of as an act of love because it's very difficult. uh uh a lot of the times uh and for listeners out there if if you know somebody that just was diagnosed from cancer or something, you know, see somebody like me before you at least at the same time you're seeing an oncologist and make sure you get another penny because there's so many things that we can do for cancer um that uh the oncologists, you know, they don't get into either that or they don't know about it or whatever. So hopefully we'll get into some of those things today. But that's kind of my background. Uh have a full full uh clinic that we do all kinds of stuff, not just cancer, but do all kinds of stuff up in Northern Nevada. So that's that's it for me. >> That's awesome. And it's funny because I I got you be you came on my radar uh through a couple of uh interesting uh coincidences. So I was studying the metabolic theory of cancer. I was looking at melatonin. I was reading the same papers from Russell Reer probably that you were reading. I was watching videos that Russell Reer was doing online. Uh cuz I I I really enjoy listening to him talk and and then all of a sudden you popped up because you in 201 I think 18 or 19 did a talk at the Rearen Clinic where I went to school I went to medical school in Kansas believe it or not and I know Dr. Ron and so I watched your talk and I was blown away by that and I was especially intrigued. I mean, I think that the if you look, the literature's there for melatonin, but I think what I was especially intrigued by was your clinical experience using uh melatonin as an adjunctive therapy for cancer. So, maybe maybe we could just dive into that, like how you got interested in in using melatonin therapeutically. >> Uh well, it's kind of similar to uh you know what you've done. Uh I was um surfing the net as I do. I have a newsletter and I I write that every month and I surf the net for see what's new in the literature and so forth and so on and uh I come across this paper I was looking for something else actually but I came across this paper by writer and um the paper the paper says you know melatonin prevents cancer uh of all kinds basically that was the gist of it so I said what you know melatonin is for sleeping what are you talking Mhm. >> Uh that's what my knowledge was. And to tell you the truth, for probably 99% of doctors, that's what their knowledge is. >> I agree fully. >> Melatonin is for sleep. They don't appreciate that it does about 20 other things. Mhm. >> But anyhow, writer had these experiments uh where he would take animals that were genetically programmed to get certain cancers and he would give them uh very stiff, very high doses. Now, actually, when we get into dosing, we're going to learn that they weren't high doses at all, >> right? >> But compared to what what what we've what we've always been taught, they were high doses. He was giving these animals uh these high doses of melatonin and they never got the cancer. And so wow. Okay. So uh what what's cool about writer is uh I called him up and he got on the phone with me for about two hours. >> That's awesome. >> And so he was really cool guy. I ultimately uh had him come out and speak to our academy of ozone therapy doctors and he was just awesome. He was I think at the time he was like 83 84 and uh he stood up there and gave us an hour and a half lecture pretty much impromptu brain working really sharp and just just blew all our minds and uh so that's kind of how I got into it and I sort of have tiptoed into it to the extent that um I usually do. I usually don't jump into anything he head first >> but uh I tiptoe into it and started taking you know pretty pretty stiff doses and in his case um 180 milligrams a night of melatonin and you know uh what I learned from him uh was that uh although the brain actually makes melatonin in very tiny amounts uh uh to help induce the effect of darkness on sleep. I don't think that a lot of doctors appreciate that melatonin is not a sleep inducer. You can take melatonin in the middle of the day and in fact our bodies make it 24 hours a day. >> Uh it doesn't induce sleep. Darkness induces sleep. That's the way we and all animals really are are are are subject to this circadian rhythm where where uh during the daytime the sunlight coming in through their eyes impacts their brain and creates all these changes and then uh when it when the sun goes down uh and darkness ensues all of that changes it changes the way our brain orchestrates and does things and Uh, and melatonin sensitizes the brain to this dark light not light light dark cycle. And when you stop and think about that and I don't think people really appreciate this, the light and dark cycle is just something we're absolutely dependent on. It to a large extent runs everything from our reproductive system to our immune system to our digestive system to uh all kinds of things in the body that light dark cycle. And uh when you stop and think about that, you think, "Oh my goodness, what happens to uh people who work graveyard shifts and they don't get their the light and dark cycles all screwed up?" are people who stay up but four hours after it's turned dark >> and uh and and try and sleep during when it's light and where you know in our modern society we completely ignore this this cycle at least most of us do >> and it causes all kinds of repercussions >> uh and uh like for for the audience uh uh for example night shift workers specifically it's been published on nurses that work the graveyard shift much more prone to get breast cancer than nurses who work the day shift >> and males get prostate cancer. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's associated with this light dark cycle. So melatonin just it it sensitizes us to the darkness effect that puts us to sleep. Uh so you can take it all day long. So at first though I started taking it just at nighttime because I really wasn't aware of this effect. >> And it worked great. I didn't have any problem with it. And uh and of course I slept like a baby. I'm pushing 80 now. And I you know that that's about the age where you you can start to uh experience some fragmented sleep. We hear that's pretty common. And I don't see that anymore. I sleep as good as I ever did. Um but uh sooner or later I started learning more and more about the anti-cancer effect, the direct anti-cancer effect of melatonin. I then learned that our our uh every cell almost every cell in the body makes melatonin. It's not just the brain. and that the uh the the intestines can make massive amounts up to 400 milligrams of melatonin in a 24-hour period. And so at that point, I I said, "Oh my goodness." Okay. So, we can use this with our cancer patients. So, what we're doing these days is giving him melatonin around the clock. >> Yeah. Now, it's interesting that you say that. Uh I didn't know that the volume that was made by the intestines. I know that they talk about uh you know in integrative functional medicine they talk about the second brain being the the uh the gut and how there's more serotonin made in the gut than in the brain and it would make sense that there'd be more melatonin because serotonin is the direct precursor to to melatonin so I didn't know that I you know I I think that u this kind of >> you know took an interesting turn because I wasn't particularly talking about circadian rhythms but circadian rhythms are extremely important um and matter of fact they they believe that more than 50% of all genes have a circadian basis. All the hormones are circadian based. And it's not just uh the lack of dark at night, which no one that truly experiences these days with phones, computers, LEDs, you name it, right? But it's also the lack of sunlight cue, right? It's that certain color temperatures during the day, morning, afternoon, evening, and and those spectrums that help set the circadian rhythm in the in the central oscillator and the and the supercasmatic nucleus. And I think it's extremely fascinating and I think that I personally believe that that is a huge reason for modern disease. My my mentor Dr. Cruz, he believes that all disease is circadian rhythm, you know, dysfunction. Um, I think that's >> I think it's possible. Well, I think it's I don't like being I don't like being uh I guess I'm I'm too much of an internist to not want to have a differential diagnosis, you know, but but uh I think that I think it's a huge driver for sure. And um you know, melatonin is is uh a critical piece of that. There's no question it's setting the clock. So does vitamin D, believe it or not, for the day. I I wasn't aware of that. Were you were you aware of the paper that was published with reader and um uh I god I can't think of the guy's name the light engineer they where they found that uh infrared light would stimulate the intramitochondrial melatonin during the day and that creates a huge spike like you were mentioning when you're exposed to red and infrared light during the day which I think kind of muddies the water a little bit because you know like you're saying the the melatonin uh is what is at the onset of sleep and that spike has been clearly important. Russell Reer mentioned that if you blunt that spike the cancer cells grow 24/7 and if you have it there they stop. Um, but I just I think it I think it the the dogma around just the pineal gland making melatonin has been completely debunked as you mentioned the gut all all mitochondria containing cells make make melatonin unless it's a cancer cell that that is turned off believe it or not but um yeah I think that's that's awesome and but I guess was it talking to him in that two-hour talk or in that conversation you had or was it reading more literature or was it the talk he came and gave to you? How did you understand the dosing timing and scheduling and where did you guys come up with that I guess? >> Yeah, you know, um I just got started at that time. What was it about 12 years ago, maybe 10 years ago or something like that? >> Uh I just got started, but uh uh it's it's always been an evolving thing for me. >> I got you. >> I learn more and more. And um I've gotten to the point now where what's very typical for me now, in fact almost always any cancer case I get, I have them get a bottle of water, like a quart bottle of water, and I have them throw in maybe two, three grams of sodium ascorbate, the buffered form of vitamin C in there. And I have them throw in uh a teaspoon, which of melatonin, which would be roughly a thousand milligrams. Uh uh and that's a lot. It's a lot of melatonin. Oh, it's a lot. >> And I have them sip that all day long. And then take a big old dose at night time. >> Gotcha. >> And uh I all I can all I can say is my cancer patients are doing pretty darn good. >> That's awesome. >> We do other things, of course. But >> Oh, yeah. Of course. Of course. But but >> what have you noticed? What have you noticed when you added melatonin to those regimens? I mean, do you see like a night and day, no pun intended, like difference in the outcomes that you were seeing? >> I think so. I can't, you know, I I haven't really done studies and done that. I get that, but my overall impression is that yeah, they're they're breezing through the other stuff that we do because I I also work with oncologists. >> Uhhuh. >> And they're they're getting high dose chemo. I personally give lowd dose chemo. >> I heard. >> So I'm in the middle of all of this stuff and you know my patients just breeze through stuff and lots of times they come back and they'll tell me, "Hey, the oncologist told me that I'm doing really well, much better than he expected and I have to think it's got something to do with some of these other ancillary things, particularly the melatonin that we're using." One thing I I want to uh just just put out there in the ether um is something that I'm a little concerned about is the use of oral antioxidants. And I know melatonin is an antioxidant, but melatonin has a special vitamin D also has a has an opposite effect within cancer, but vitamin C orally, I get nervous because at least the way that I approach things based off of metabolic theory of cancer is that you're kind of trying to inhibit uh the cancer's ability to to handle redux, homeostasis, and balance. And obviously the IV vitamin C would be a big part of that by upsetting that apple cart, right? I I I do get a little nervous about giving people uh you know oral vitamin C, but you're saying you haven't seen uh in your clinical practice like negative effects of that. >> Vitamin C is a whole another thing now because you know you have uh regular vitamin C which is an antioxidant. >> But when you take in vitamin C it gets oxidized >> and it turns into dihydrocorbate which is the oxidized version. The ox the dihydrocorbate goes through the glute 4 receptors. Vitamin C doesn't. It's got its own special receptor. The reduced vitamin C has its own special receptors. Cancers don't tend to have those receptors, but they have plenty of glute receptors as you know they upregulate all their glute receptors. So I my impression with this is and I I appreciate what you're saying because there actually is some data to support what you're talking about. Uh, but what I'm thinking is going on is now with my patients, by the way, we oxidize them. >> I'm giving them ozone therapy and we're oxidizing them and andor having them exercise, whatever. And so what I think is going on is the vitamin C is going into the into the bloodstream, getting absorbed, going into the bloodstream, getting oxidized to DHA, which which is gets approximately 10 times greater absorbed into a cancer cell than it does into a regular cell. >> Makes sense. >> And so you're going to get some intracellular oxidizing effect from vitamin C. >> Interesting. and kills cancer cells on the outside as you know through the fentin >> correct >> but on the inside of the cell I don't think a lot of us appreciate that vitamin C on the inside of the cell in the form of DHA correct >> has other effects that are also antagonistic to cancer cells >> to glutathione specifically correct like it'll deplete glutathione is my understanding >> but I guess I guess my understanding and I and I'm completely fine being wrong um I guess it's just out of caution that I that I that I think this way is just that I thought that in order to have those effects it had to be like a concentration dependent like it has to be that like super bolus basically of intravenous vitamin C to have that effect and the low dose was kind of like always an antioxidant that maybe I'm maybe I'm I'm mistaken in my thinking there. Yeah, I I think that there's I think it's going to get oxidized and and you're right, if you're like shooting a giant amount, especially if you do it like I do right after an ozone therapy. So, I just loaded them up with an oxidant >> that I'm putting that in there. I know a lot of it's going to get oxidized, >> but um I don't know that I can prove this. But, I mean, there is data. If you if you look look at the data, you will see that if you take a blood sample of somebody, you're going to find any any Venus sample, you're going to find oxidized vitamin C in there. >> Interesting. >> So, it's it it fluctuates that that redux is altering and changing all the time. It's never just all reduced vitamin C ever. >> Got it. Yeah. I think it's hard to wrap my head around, but it's got >> and you got and you got to figure that these cancer patients particularly are going to be highly oxidized. >> Yeah. That brings up an interesting question what you just mentioned there. It's something that I asked Dr. Ron actually when I had him on. I actually asked Dr. Diagastino as well who's kind of a hyperaric expert. I said I think it makes a ton of sense to stack oxidative therapies such as Hbot and or vitamin C. But I asked both of them the question, do you believe that it would be more beneficial to do like ozone or HBO or something to do with that first or IV vitamin C first? Have you played with that uh you know the the the I don't want to say ratio but the the order of things and seen a better response? >> Yeah. So uh so I use ozone all the time. That's I don't use Hbot, so I I can't really comment on that, but I can tell you that if I treat you with vitamin C first and then I pull blood out of your body because the way we I don't Do you use vitamin C? >> I I I recommend it to my patients, but I go to like local centers in the area. I don't have a clinic, you know. >> Okay. So, you're not doing ozone therapy? >> No, sir. >> Okay. Yeah. So, so the deal with ozone therapy is the way you do it is you pull blood out of the body into a bottle or a bag and then you shoot the ozone gas into that blood and now you're oxidizing the hell out of the blood >> and and you want that oxidizing effect. That's the whole idea, right? >> It's going to be a stimulating to the NRF2 system and a lot of other systems. And then you run that oxidized blood back into the patient. But if I were to pre-treat the patient with a especially a high dose of antioxidants, now when the blood's in the bottle, uh, and I shoot the ozone in there, a lot of that ozone is going to not do what I want it to do to immune cells. It's going to be taken up by some of the ascorbic acid that's in there. >> Got it? >> And now it's going to effectively, >> but it's going to diminish the ozone effect that we know. That's been studied. Okay. >> So, so as a rule when you're doing ozone and probably other oxidizing therapies, too, like probably HBOT. >> Yeah. >> You're going to do it, you're going to put in that C afterwards because that therapy of that ozone is going to create all these peroxides. That's basically just loading the body up with peroxides. >> And now you're going to put vitamin C in there. >> And you know what I'm doing now, by the way? >> What's that? is when I put the I give them ozone therapy. I follow it up with vitamin C, reduce vitamin C, but before I before I administer the reduced vitamin C, I shoot ozone gas into the vitamin C bag. >> Interesting. >> I'm oxidizing the hell out of the >> You want DHA basically. >> It's a bag of DHA. >> Yeah. >> You can't go buy DHA. >> No, you cannot. I can make it. >> That's fascinating. You know that's I was thinking about the same thing you know because I was thinking you know uh you know for example like it's it's well published within the like u radiation oncology literature that like if there's a certain amount of P2 in a tumor radiation therapy is ineffective and if it's above a certain threshold it's more effective basically oxygen is required for reactive oxygen reactive nitrogen species you know to be formed. So therefore, it would make sense that you would give a super bolus of oxygen or in this case ozone for your case and and and pre-treat that before you give an oxidant so that you can allow the fentin reaction or whatever you're trying to you know maximize to make more sense. So interesting. Thank you for sharing that. That's the first information I got. doing I've been doing that for about a year now >> and again it's one of those it's very subjective but I do think I'm getting a lot better results by oxidizing that CO do you uh I guess you know in addition to oxidative therapies um uh I know you guys do a lot there but do you I mean and I've heard when when I when I heard you do that talk at Rearen um you you didn't go much into to it, but you at least gave me the hint that you believe that cancer is a mitochondrial metabolic disease, that a ketogenic diet is a good idea. Do you do you put people on those modalities while you're going through therapies or no? >> Yes. Uh so, uh are you familiar with Thomas Seafred's freeze papers? >> Yes. Yes, I am. So in one of his papers uh uh and I think the the the the title is something similar to cancer is a mitochondrial disease. >> He quotes a a couple of experiments in which and now they they did this on worms. >> Mhm. But nonetheless, and basically they they um get a cell that is uh uh cancerous and from the same animal get a cell that's non-cancerous and somehow exchange the mitochondria. >> Right. Well, it's the nucleus and the entire cytool is my understanding. >> It's just Yes. Just the just the mitochondria. >> Okay. Just mitochondria. >> Just just the mitochondria. Somehow they have a way of >> you know doing that >> pulling them out. Yeah. and the cancer cell becomes non-cancerous and the non-cancer cell becomes cancerous. That's pretty conclusive. And then if you look at all the other, you know, what what back to Warberg, you know, even you know, >> the the the cancer cells don't they have mitochondria, but they don't like to use them >> and so they do very well in a in a poor oxygen environment. >> Yep. Yeah, they do. >> Yeah. So it the whole thing makes total sense to me that this is a mitochondrial disease. >> Agreed. >> It's not it's not it's not it's only you know the mitochondria and the nucleus talk to each other. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. They exchange information. So when the nucleus needs more energy it sends a message to the mitochondria. Give me some more energy. Right. >> And vice versa. it when it's not sending that message uh then then the mitochondria might send a message to the nucleus saying you know we need some more protein over here >> right >> so they talk to each other >> so I know the nucleus is involved in this >> yeah I think >> primarily is the mitochondria is the thing that we screw up >> all of us with our >> badass lifestyles we're screwing up those mitochondria >> that's right I think that that was something that I was a little shocked at uh is that you My undergraduate degree is in biochemistry and you know I learned you know you know in that kind of like setting it's mostly about metabolism and things like that but you know we all learned throughout school medical school included that mitochondria are effectively a power plant right they're they make energy but there is so many more diverse effects that that they do you know and cross talk with the nucleus like you said is just unbelievable um they're I've heard people say they're like our sixth sense because basically like whatever is happening on in the environment will change the genome epigenetically, you know, through cross talk. I think it's unbelievable. >> Yeah. You the number of mitochondria in a cell can dramatically change in 60 minutes. >> Mhm. >> They're they're constantly moving, constantly adapting, changing in size, dividing, making more, making less. It's a very fascinating whole concept what's going on with these mitochondria. And when you look at our lifestyles, >> everything about the crappy lifestyles that are out there affect mitochondrial behavior. It's all published stuff. >> I agreed fully. And every pathology, whether it be diabetes to Alzheimer's to Parkinson's to everything, every disease is associated with it. >> Um, yeah, I agree fully. I think Seaf's definitely on to something. I don't think he has everything right, but I think he's definitely on to something. >> Well, he's got a huge part of the picture. >> Oh, yeah. Huge. Now, you were kind of asking, do I get into the ketone thing? And uh the answer is not always, you know, not always. I'm not so convinced that the ketone thing is huge. It's huge for animal studies. It's just awesome for animal studies, but for humans, doesn't work so well. So, what's the difference between us and animals? And how come it works so well for animals, but not so for us? It's got to have something to do with things other than ketones. Yeah, I it's interesting because you know you would believe um by listening to see Freed talk and um you know maybe just having the general theory in your brain about you know Warberg effect and enhanced glucose utilization that a ketogenic diet is only about a low glucose diet, right? And and just having less substrate for the for the cancer cells. But they believe it's it's kind of like multiffactorial, you know, it's like a lack of a lack of glucose, a lack of insulin signaling. Insulin's huge at, you know, growth signaling. And then the ketones themselves are epigenetic modifiers and they can have anti-cancer effects. So I I mean I think it makes a lot of sense. Let's put it that way. Um it it is a difficult diet to follow. Um it is uh not a fun diet to be on and and the targets that Seafruit has has published on you know the the glucose keen index etc. uh targets of of of less than two or one is extremely difficult uh for most people to achieve. Um but I do think it's I do think it's a probably a not an all or nothing. You know I think it's probably like if your glucose is 450 you're going to do the worst. you know, if your glucose is 350, you'll do better, but still bad, you know, and if you're 95, you're better than 350, but you're still not as good as if it was like 70 and in strong ketosis. I think it's probably a dose response. That's kind of my thought to it. >> You know what's interesting, uh, is that uh, chemo works better in rapidly dividing cells. >> Oh, yeah. So, in a sense, the oncologists are actually doing the right thing when they tell their patients while they're getting chemo to eat donuts. >> I never thought about that to be honest. >> Isn't that weird? >> I never thought about that. >> Yeah. So, so I'm much more inclined if if they're getting the chemo to say, "Okay, high carbohydrate diet." Now, not the crappy carbs, of course, but but high carbohydrate diet. And then when they're off that when they're off their chemo, now we're gonna switch up. >> That's fascinating. I would say I would say I would I would consider that controversial, but but I think it's interesting though, nonetheless, regardless. >> Um, have you seen any significant side effects from using highdose melatonin at this point? >> Nothing significant. Uh, there every now and then I'll find somebody where it does actually make them sleepy. And uh find people that um will will take melatonin at night and they'll have disturbing dreams. The writer talks about this too, by the way. They'll have disturbing dreams and or they'll wake up in the morning feeling kind of a drug deal. >> Uh I'm not sure what all that's about, but it's got has to do has to have something to do with the way they metabolize melatonin. >> I've also heard some people who take highdose melatonin and feel that kind of groggginess. It kind of like if you stick with it, it will kind of like diminish or go away. Have you noticed that also? >> Yeah. And also if you take it as a suppository, >> Dr. John Laurance had you on. He does that, doesn't he? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So the first pass effect is somehow m maybe play there. Interesting. Um, what about what about I mean do you typically have people fix their circadian rhythm and or you know get the natural melatonin kind of like going first as a intervention or is just like straight to supplemental melatonin or you do kind of both at the same time or how do you feel about that? Yeah. So, all my patients, you know, they get a bunch of instructions on various things, of course, and one of them is I want you sunbathing. Uh, and uh, and then I want you exercising >> and uh, and I learned I learned the exercising part way back when out of the University of Philadelphia. This is like 20 years ago. They had a group of women with stage four cancer. Some of them didn't want to do the chemo. We were just going to go on the hospice. So they said, "Okay, let's have an experiment and they reported on this and uh all they did is the women that were going on the hospice, they had them exercise. They had a controlled exercise schedule. At the end of one year, the death rate was the same as the women getting the chemo versus the women that were on hospice and just exercising." >> I didn't hear that on Channel 7, did you? >> No. No. >> They didn't report that one today? >> No. No. They probably hit that one. >> It makes sense though. I think exercise, you know, just like most interventions we give, eat melatonin. >> They got to go they got to go to sleep early, too. >> You know, I tell them tell them, look, you got to get sun, you got to get exercise. And you when the light when it gets dark, you're going to sleep. >> Mhm. >> And when it gets light, you're getting your sorry butt out of bed. Let's let's do it this way. >> I like that. >> I think it's incred. >> I like that. What about uh people who are concerned about um you know shutting down indogenous production of melatonin by giving supplemental melatonin. What do you I've heard you talk about this. >> There's no negative feedback inhibition. >> Isn't that interesting? Every I think every other hormone except for maybe I think DHEA, >> you know, I don't know if it's a hormone. >> That's what you mentioned. I heard you >> might have hormone effects, >> right? >> But it's not like a hormone like you and I think of it as like other hormones >> like feedback loops. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I think that I think that that that's something that when I heard I think you talk about that and Russell Reer talk about that, it made me much more open to using it clinically because I was concerned about that. You know, I was like, am I going to am I going to shut down their indogenous production or something like that? But it seems like that's not the case. >> Yeah. So, I you can take melatonin all day long and then go on vacation and forget your melatonin and you'll still sleep as well and you won't feel any different. >> Interesting. That's awesome. Um, you also have said, I've heard you say this, that people who are on highdose melatonin also seem to tolerate the standard of care better, too. Have you seen examples of that? >> Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because it has that, like you pointed out, strong antioxidant effect. And so, yeah. >> Got it. >> And especially that little mix where I put the C in there along with the melatonin. I think there's some synergism in that. >> I believe that. Um, and this is an area where I have little to no experience and I'm kind of interested in the story of how you got to this point. Are you family or internal or what is your back? What is your residency in? >> Oh boy, I'm all over the place, but actually I started off in orthopedics. So, I come from orthopedic background >> u and and emergency medicine background. >> Gotcha. Gotcha. >> And I just kind of evolved from there. If if you had to label me, I'd say I'm probably my practice more like an internist and I'm looking more like an internist here. >> Got it. Got it. Well, how did you get that how did you get trained andor interested or h know how to use insulin potentiated chemotherapy? >> Yeah, it uh I kind of got lucky. So, we can start with that. And uh way back when I fell in with a fellow named Stephen Heir. I don't know if you ever knew Stephen. He was out of Chicago. Uh but he was one of the guys that picked up on this principle that was developed by um uh uh Donatada uh back in the 50s, a Mexican physician about, you know, lowering the blood sugar with insulin and um and picked up on that and he said, "Wow, you're going to lower the blood sugar and well, what's going to happen to cancer cells when you lower the blood sugar?" Well, they're going to be having some really difficult time making energy. And uh the cancer cells, of course, they make their own insulin. So, they're going to upregulate their insulin production to try and get more um more sugar in. What what if we at that point when they're low and we're bringing them out of that low blood sugar? Um we we give them sugar and at the same time simultaneously put in chemo agents. Would there might there be a Trojan horse sort of effect? And um and then so he started experimenting with that and then when you stop and you think about it when you give insulin the insulin is going to promote cancer cell growth. It it takes it takes the cancer cells at any one given time approximately 30% of your cancer cells are in an active phase of growth and 70% are in an inactive phase of growth. they won't take up the chemo when they're in their in they're in their resting phase. >> Insulin takes them out of the resting phase. >> So, so what he's doing is you with this insulin thing, you're kind of getting uh two two effects. One is you you get a bit of this Trojan horse effect. The other is you upregulate the uh or take cancer cells out of their resting phase and make more of them susceptible to the chemo that you're giving. >> Fascinating. So, just so I can understand, you give insulin first, lower the blood sugar. >> What is the target? I mean, I'm not trying I'm not trying to practice this by all means, but just like what is the target blood sugar that you're aiming for? >> Yeah. You know, everybody's different and so people can't always tolerate there. There's going to be differences. We're normally going to get them at least down below 50ish >> some of our people get down to 26. Uh and uh we we basically want to get them down to the and we judge we don't go so much on the on the blood sugar per se, although we're obviously checking it, >> but we I want to see their vision get disturbed. I want to see them slurring their words. I want to see them, you know, being dizzy and getting the effects of hypoglycemia. And we'll basically get them down to that level and we'll leave them there as long as we can. They might they might be in there like 15, 20 minutes. You don't want to leave them down too long because it gets very tiring for them. But >> but we'll leave them down there. And we figure that the poor cancer cells that their membrane potentials got to be like nothing at that point. >> And so at that point, you got to think maybe there's something else going on too. When their membrane potential gets so disturbed because they can't maintain it, what is going on with the absorption of other things we're not even giving them? What are the immune cells doing to cancer cells? Are they able to maintain that shield? >> They able to maintain that that that shield the cancer cells often can maintain to uh uh to avoid the immune system. >> So we keep them down there as long as we possibly can. Then we just diffuse a whole bunch of glucose and along with it the chemo agents. >> Interesting. So, you know, f first off, you could probably mitigate a lot of the side effects just by putting someone in ketosis or even giving them like supplemental ketones or MCT oil because what they found I didn't I don't I mean I I heard Dr. Dagasino tell me about this, but basically like they've done studies where if someone's in maximal ketosis, they can give insulin, put them down to like 18, and they don't even feel hypoglycemic. So maybe you could at least from a morbidity perspective and like tolerability like putting them put them in some degree of ketosis or MCT oil or something like that before could be helpful to to have a backup system for just how they feel. But so basically when you >> let me just let me just say yeah you're exactly right. So that's what we do. >> Okay. >> They come in after a 16-hour fast. >> Got it. Got it. Okay. >> And about two hours before they come in we give them a big old dose of MCT oil. >> Perfect. that makes them totally but they still feel that way. You're saying >> and I was thinking, you know, if I could get uh maybe you know this, but if I if I knew where I could get and knew how to use exogenous ketones, that might be pretty cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. That So, I I will tell you, I did a about a two-hour con or talk with Diego, who's an expert in this area, and he's like he knows every kind of cap of ketone possible. And what he what I wasn't aware of is the ketone esters are actually kind of dangerous. They can like make these aldahhide alcohol like metabolites and actually can cause damage to your liver. But they actually are much higher at getting your ketones up faster and and higher concentration. So he recommends the salts and there's a whole bunch of companies who make salts. But shameless plug for him is he uh I think he's like a part interest in in a company called Audacious Nutrition. And he's like the only company in the market that makes these ketone s or salts that are these u uh recemic mixtures of both the D and the L beta hydroxybutyrate. And there are some very interesting characteristics of the uh I think it's the D um the D uh isomer of beta hydroxybutyrate which has like per like much more anti-cancer effects. It's not usually used as energy. Um so you may want to look into audacious nutrition. two. He has a bunch of them now, like different like whatever their flavors, but there's two main ones. There's one with caffeine and there's one without. I have seen people who've been on the caffeine version who have no problem at all that doesn't affect their glucose or their ketones. Some people it does affect their glucose and ketones. I kind of like steer people towards generally the non-caffeinated ones, but it's basically a a magnesium, calcium, like sodium, potassium, uh ionic interaction between the between the uh the ketone itself and the salt molecule. So, it kind of gives you electrolytes too, you know, because something that happens on a ketogenic diet is you kind of like can screw with your electrolytes a little bit. Um, so the ketone salts from Audacious Nutrition, I think, are the best. There there are. Okay. All right. They're >> not a cheap thrill, but they're they're they're probably the best. Mhm. >> So you have that makes sense. So but people are still feeling that hypoglycemic though, right? Like even at that even at 50 you're saying they're >> I take them. They better be getting symptomatic. >> They have to get Do you do like a continuous insulin infusion like to make sure it's titrated or is it like a small dose of like like aspart or like what is it? >> No, I'm not doing that. Uh I know of one uh oncologist that was doing that. He passed away so he might have been the only guy that was doing that. >> Interesting. the the the theory has always been give a bullus. >> Okay. >> And uh and not do a continuous infusion. But it kind of makes sense. That's why that guy was doing it that way. And he felt it was a good way. >> Got it. And then so basically when the insulin, you know, has this effect. It does two things. Number one, it takes the inactive cancer cells into an active phase. And then on top of that, of course, it's starved for nutrients. So it upregulates what it can in terms of glute receptors. You give glucose next and then you give my reading on your website I I don't know much about this but like you're saying about a tenth of the dose of chemotherapy normally. >> Yeah. >> Got it. >> Fascinating. That's really interesting. Um there's somebody in Atlanta who does it. I think in my local environment there may be one person in Florida doing it. >> Not a lot of us. >> Yeah. Not a lot of people doing it. >> A handful of us in the US. >> Got it. That's fascinating man. And then uh you know I guess you know everybody and I'm sure you agree with this is their own kind of N equals one in terms of what kind of treatment they get right >> but if you were to pin down Seaff Freed in his group he'd say you know ketogenic diet you know glucose and glutamine inhibitors and maybe some Hbot that's like the general gist of it. Do you have a general gist of how to approach this problem? No, just kind of I'm not I'm not aware. I I don't think that other than just having a clean diet, which so many people don't have, but just to have a clean diet, >> I don't typically care, you know, about they're going to get sugar anyway. The dang cancer is going to make sugar anyhow. Uh you so it in in a sense where are they going to get the sugar? They they they could be getting it by breaking down your muscles. They aren't. >> Yeah, they could get they'll get it from breaking down your fat, which probably isn't too big bad a deal, but but I I'm I'm not of aware because I do these other things. That may be why Seaffrey feels he's got to do, but it clearly Seaf Freed points out works great in animals, not so good in humans. That's been my experience. Yeah, there's there's there's definitely translational science, you know, that needs to go from the bench to the bedside that still I think there's a lot to be learned there. There's no question. >> Yeah, >> no question. >> But I guess my I guess my my my question just to like maybe be a better question is I mean is there like certain uh interventions that like kind of everybody will get? I mean, we talked about, you know, you talked about uh melatonin and the vitamin C drink. You know, you you talked about giving them ozone and and IV vitamin C, but is there other uh things that you've noticed as being like kind of game changers that are are not as well known? >> Yeah, I think the ozone is an absolute game changer. Total. >> And the sauna, you're talking about the sauna or the removing of the blood and adding it or like >> you know, we do use an infrared sauna, but I don't use the ozone sauna so much. >> Okay. Okay. We have one, but I I look look at it as more of an an immune stimulant than anything else because it got the dendritic cells in the skin and such. But >> but but I we give them a lot of introvenous ozone. >> Introvenous. So that's the really that's the kicker. The >> introven. Yeah. And that that's one thing that I do that I think is different from what is normally done. Uh and then the other thing is like I mentioned to you, we we give them a lot of uh dihydrocorbate rather than just a scorbate. >> Got it. By not only pre-treating the patient with ozone and having a more oxidized bloodstream when you inject the vitamin C, but also the idea of giving ozone to the bag of vitamin C to have it be more in its oxidized state before infusion. basically. >> Yeah. You got to figure somebody's coming in to see you with uh typically I don't get the people when they're just newly diagnosed unfortunately, but so most of the people I get uh they're they're chemo failures or or whatever. >> Uh and and they come in and they're, you know, they're they're not in good shape at all. They're they're in bad shape. Um their vitamin C levels are are undetectable. I I test everybody's vitamin C level in their urine and there's there's no vitamin C there. Uh and um so when I go to give them introvenous vitamin C in many ways I'm just filling up deficiencies. I don't want to do that. I want to have excess so that we get that fentin effect. So what I like to do is have them drink vitamin C all day long >> even maybe two weeks before I even do anything. >> Interesting. Then I'm giving them the vi the introvenous vitamin C and it it's works way better. That 100 grams of vitamin C works a whole lot better with their when they're preloading than it does if they don't preload. >> That's fascinating. And and I would imagine that are you using like a gram per kilogram dosing or or of vitamin C or is it like a have you figured out that if you use this dose for most people this is the best or something like that like >> yeah you know uh hunting hockey you know they they get really good that they have their own lab set up and they're going to do blood vitamin C's and such like that right >> that's kind of difficult for us to do so I don't really do that but Typically speaking, 100 grams is what most people are going to get. >> Interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. I I mean, a lot of the studies um it seems like are using 75 grams uh for for a lot of the outcome studies that I've seen, which doesn't seem to be based off of a gram per kilogram. I know Ron has talked about like 0.5 to 1.5 grams per kilogram, somewhere in there, is in that oxidative range, but you're saying the upper end of that for most people is better basically. >> Yeah, I think so. I don't see any downside to it. Do you do you do it I mean is your scheduling uh to that where you like do it daily or two to three days per week or once per week or how how often do you think someone should get IV vitamin C? >> Twice a week. That's what I do. >> Twice per week. Got it. Got it. Awesome. Any do you have any experience with uh I don't know photomic therapy, methylene blue, other things like that? Have you looked into that at all? >> Interesting. Uh um yes. Uh um I I'm mostly doing that for infectious diseases >> because it's it's a flatout knockout punch for infectious diseases. >> And uh so I'll tell you what we do and and I don't know that anybody else is doing this, but this work seems to work pretty good. We'll we'll take a bag of methylene blue. Basically, I'll put anywhere from 20 to 50 milligrams of methylene blue into a 250 cc bag. We run 3/4 of it into the patient. Then we put the bag on the floor and uh and we draw out um 200 cc's of blood into that bag. Uh so now their their blood is already methylated uh it's got methylene blue in their bloodstream. >> Uh and now now the blood that's coming into the bag is getting exposed to more methylene blue. >> But as it as the blood's coming out of the patient, it runs through a bank of uh red and ultraviolet lights. And so we're exposing and that activates the methylene blue. >> Yes, it does. >> Light activates methylene blue and um and so when when the blood's going out, it's it's the blood's getting act the methylene blue and the blood's getting activated. Then we hang the bag up, shoot in a bunch of of ozone into the bag and run it right back into the patient again through the lights. And that particular combo is well tolerated, super well tolerated. And it's a flatout knockout punch. Uh one or two of those on uh on one or two consecutive days. Knock on any dang virus that you want to talk about. >> Awesome. >> I'm right now I'm treating a lady with uh Hodkins Hodkins uh disease lymphoma and uh and we're using that treatment on her um uh simply because I'm pretty sure it was activated by EBV. And if I knock out the EBV, I'm pretty sure we're going to do I'm doing other things with but normally I haven't done that with my cancer patients. >> Interesting. See, I I think that methylene blue is very fascinating just because of its mitochondrial affinity. It seems to have a strong affinity to the mitochondria. Yeah. >> And um it acts as kind of an electron donor and acceptor and it's photoactivated by red light in particular. And red light, you know, red and infrared light are kind of the the the light that is the deepest penetrating to the body. So I think it's the most likely to be able to be utilized for photoynamic therapy for for cancer uh with tissue penetration, right? Because if it's just if you're using UV, you know, what it's believed at least is that it's only going to penetrate maybe like a millimeter or something like that into your system. So if you have a >> if you have if you hypothetically had a tumor, you know, in your kidney or in your paritinium or something like that, it would be like impossible unless you had a probe right next to the tumor shining UV for that to work. So I've always when when thinking about photomic therapy I've thought about uh what photosensitive molecules would you know basically be photoactivated with red and infrared light and methylene blue is one of those I think strong candidates and I just wanted to know what you thought about that. Um it seems like it's got a lot of anti-cancer effect specifically I've seen studies where it just decimates breast cancer. Again these are in these are these are cell cultures. These are not these are not invivo uh tumors, you know. So, it's it's it's I think what is hard is that everybody wants to use methylene blue because it's very infad right now, >> you know. And and there's all kinds of companies that make it by mouth. And I'm I'm I'm afraid the same way I'm afraid with giving vitamin C by mouth. I'm afraid of giving, you know, any pretty dose orally of methylene blue because you probably need to be introvenous like two milligrams per kilogram, maybe maybe as high as that to get the concentrations that were in those studies for the photomic therapy. So, I'm like, if I'm giving you a low dose, am I hurting you, you know, especially by mouth, you know? So, that's that's kind of I just wonder what you thought about that. >> Yeah, I'm I'm not I'm not all that knowledgeable about methane blue. I'm just playing with it a little bit. >> I got it. >> I I'm I'm conservative that way. I got you. Do you I guess in your experience, do you think that you've like noticed patterns or I don't know constellations of lifestyle factors that really seem to be the major causes of cancer? >> Stress, emotional stress, physical stress, nutritional stress, not getting enough sleep. Oh yeah. Uh and you're probably aware of the published studies where they they look like what's the common how many people are complaining of prolonged stress before the the cancer is diagnosed. It's like 80% of people. >> It's unbelievable. If I didn't I I I always kind of tell this story that I' and and I haven't been in as I mean anywhere near as long as you and so I'm sure you have many many more stories than me but but I I I think if I had a nickel for every time I heard someone say that like I got divorced, I got I got my business got I lost my business, I went bankrupt, you know, my son died, uh my dog died, I got ran over by a car, like something traumatic happens like within like a couple of years generally of diagnosis. I mean, I'd probably be a millionaire even with my little experience that I have doing this. It's just unbelievable. There's a there's definitely a correlation there. Huh. >> And how many times do you hear of somebody who comes down with cancer that has a relatively stress-free life? >> It'll happen. >> They believe it's stress free, but when you actually ask the questions and you're like, "Oh, well, actually." >> Yeah. Yeah. But but it happens, but it's not that common. >> Yeah. Yeah, I get that. And then I guess if unless you have any more like pearls for me, maybe I'd ask you like of all the interventions that you've used in your clinical practice dating back to the time you graduated medical school and residency, what would you think is the single most uh effective intervention for cancer specifically? Oh boy. Um, your your clinical cancer. Okay. Um, other than surgery, you know, if you could like remove it surgically, I like that obviously, but let's say let's say it's spread and you can't do that. >> Uh, I would have to say that chemo >> chemotherapy. >> Yeah, I think chemotherapy is has got a bad rep be simply because the way it's administered. >> Got it. >> Not because it's not valuable. So you're saying if it's done >> that changed my world as soon as I threw chemo in there. I got a different world. >> Interesting. And it was specifically the insulin potentiated chemotherapy. Is that where it changed your world? >> I didn't even know I got into this uh uh without doing that. Uh, so I've my patients were u getting chemo from their anc oncologist and I could tell you some stories but um and then they'd see me and I'd say well you need to you need to do ozone, you need to do melatonin, you need to do vitamin C IV drips and they go back and they tell their oncologist and the encologist says, "Oh, you can't do that. That'll make everything bad, right?" >> And so they come back to me and said, "Well, guy says I can't do that." I said, "You know, you can do that. It's okay. So, I'll talk him into doing that and uh after a while they'll they'll the oncologist will come back and and tell him, you know what, you've done so well. I have one case of a guy who went to VA and and and we were doing that. He was getting treated for squamous cell and uh he says, "No, no, you can't you can't do any of these things." And so I I told the guy, he says, "What am I going to tell the encologist?" I said, "Just tell them you're not doing them. Just lie." and because it's okay. So here I am a doctor telling a patient to lie to another doctor. But anyhow I could justify it. So he goes anyway the story is at the VA guy he's he calls the patient he says you've done so well this is a squamous cell and you know when you get the radiation there and such it's going to you ruin your teeth and your saliva and you're you won't be able to swallow easily and so forth and so on. He says you haven't had any side effects. your teeth are all perfectly good. You got saliva. You've never had a problem swallowing. I want you to go and talk to all my patients and tell them what a wonderful job we do. And so the guy says, "Yeah, I'll be happy to do that, but you got to know I was seeing Shalonburgger the whole time and getting vitamin C and all this kind of stuff." And and the of course the response is, "Well, maybe you better not talk to him." >> Well, you know, this Sorry, I I just have to ask you. >> It's just the way it's administered. If these guys could get out of the box, they could do the exact same thing they're doing and get better results. >> Why why why is there such uh a lack of curiosity and open-mindedness in our profession, Frank? Like why is it that no one is open-minded? >> Yeah, I think uh that's a big question, right? Um yeah, it's it's got to do with number one, group practices. So if you're in a group with two or three or 20 other doctors, all those doctors better be doing the same damn thing because if one screws up a patient, they all get sued. >> Hello. So yeah, you got to have group mentality. Uh the other thing that that causes group mentality is going to be hospital privileges. And then finally, you got your regulatory boards and liability. And you add all that together, nobody wants to step out of the box. They all want to stay in their little box because there's safety in there >> and they're and they're going to actually have a job. >> Yeah. >> So, you will you're saying mostly fear? >> I get that. I talk I talk to oncologists. I get that. They tell me, "Look, I like what you're doing, but we can't do that." >> Yeah. >> It's too bad. >> So, you're saying that behind the curtain because I I I don't I don't personally know a lot of medical oncologists. I mean, I consult them all the time. I'm a hospitalist. That's my job. So, like I consult them. They go and do their consult for what I need them to do, but I'm not talking to them directly. I'm not like buddy buddy with them because I I I work a kind of a weird shift and and most of them are gone for the day. So, my point is is that I don't really get to know what they're really thinking, but I can tell you that most of them will have nothing to do with talking about anything except for the standard of care. And if you bring in an article, whatever from PubMed patients, you know, they'll just throw it in the garbage, you know. And I thought it was just kind of arrogance and and kind of like a god mentality. But you think it's all driven by fear. Is that what it is? >> Yeah. You know, I find the same thing with hepatologists, nephrologists, you know, these guys, they there's they're in groups. Almost all of them are in groups. And yeah, they just, you know, that's not any place they want to go. >> Yeah. Well, it it certainly does a disservice to the patients and the diseases that they have. There's no >> Oh, yeah. It's horrible. It's like it's like, you know, too bad. But they don't even want to re you can't recommend it because in their viewpoint if they recommend oh yeah you know what uh I can't give you vitamin C but go see this guy he can give you vitamin C uh or ozone or whatever it is uh they're they're also incur a liability for their whole group by even just recommending it. >> Wow that's sad. >> Yeah. Yeah. If if something goes wrong if something doesn't work obviously it was the vitamin C and the ozone. >> Mhm. Got it. Well, I appreciate that insight. Um, >> I appreciate that insight. Well, Dr. Shaonburgger, it was a pleasure meeting you. It was a pleasure picking your brain. Um, I really appreciate your time. >> Yeah, you're a great guy to talk to. I really enjoyed this, too. So, >> all right. >> Very good. And you gave me a couple of tidbits. I'm going to go ahead and check out this Audacious Nutrition. Oh, yeah. A little bit more about this. Yeah, >> please do. All right. We'll see. Well, nice to meet you and hopefully I get to talk to you again. >> Okay. Anytime, man. Great talking with