Court Proceeding — Vinnie Politan LIVE! Suspect in Charlie Kirk Assassination Caught

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Court Proceeding — Vinnie Politan LIVE! Suspect in Charlie Kirk Assassination Caught
Court proceeding — State of Utah v. Tyler James Robinson (Case 251403576, 4th Judicial Dist. Ct., Utah County). Transcript is the YouTube auto-caption track of the Court TV feed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0CjW-CYFww) — verbatim ASR, not a certified court transcript.

The suspect in the Charlie Kirk case has been captured. The question is now what happens? We're going to look at the the evidence. We're going to look at how this thing will play inside of a courtroom because that's where we're going. That's where we're going in this. It's no longer a manhunt. This is now a criminal prosecution. So, we'll get into what that trial may or may not look like, what the evidence looks like, what his defense could be, and what the case will be all about. Um, I'm Vinnie Palletan. Thank you so much for joining us here on the Tangent Podcast, and we're just back from Crime Con. Later on uh in this video at the end once we get past the the serious nature of all that we're dealing with here uh we'll talk about um what happened at Crime Con. But now we're going to focus on what happened to Charlie Kirk, um the young man who got captured, what investigators are saying, um what prosecutors are saying, and what our analysis is of how this thing is going to move forward through our system of justice. As I mentioned, I'm Vinnie Palletan live on Court TV Monday through Friday with two hours of live true crime. Um, great to see everyone. With me, of course, is Al W II. >> Hola, Tangenistas >> and the radio legend Jonesy. >> Greetings from Asbury Park, New Jersey. >> This is the Tangent Podcast. [Music] It's the tangent podcast. Vinnie has the blue eyes cracks the jokes. Jones stays behind his shades entertaining all the folks. It's Vinny and the tangent. True crop podcast. Load up all your comments. Hit those super chats. Let's go. Smash that like button so we can all have a blast. Vinny Allen Jonesy on the job. They're the Sugar Hill Gang of True Crime. They're telling stories of days gone by. They take crime and turn into a good old time. It's the Here we go. It's the I guess it's what I would call the soundtrack of Fridays. Uh the true crime podcast. Obviously, everyone still is reeling from this one and and for obvious reasons. I mean, I think what's different about this one, and I I'd be interested to hear what you guys have to say. Um I feel like we were all a witness to this. I almost feel like I'm in the shoes of someone who has experienced um a horrific crime, but having been there because of the nature of what we saw like we saw life leave. >> Um and I'm going to call him a young he's 31 years old leave this young man like right in front of our eyes. We were all to it >> and I think it's really hit us at another level. Um what are your thoughts? Okay, my my thought is first of all it's just it's shock, it's dismay um that ideas have led to the death of of a young man and that's what I mean you know in in the act itself the violence of the act itself is so it's it it's just shocking. But when you you look into that further, this young man died because of his ideals. Ideals that I didn't necessarily agree with, but I defend his right to have them. And I should be able to say those things. He should be able to speak his mind. He should be able to give his point of view without having to worry about a bullet going through his neck. And it bothers me to the hilt that something like this has happened. And it it just is so horrible what we have seen lately with Luigi and all this other stuff. Just senseless senseless deaths for ideas and for for what you do for a living. I mean, how freaked out is this? I mean, how bad are we getting in this society that you can't state your mind? You can't be a politician. You can't have an opinion and then be able to say to yourself, I I don't have to worry about, you know, walking down the street. I don't have to worry about this. I don't have to worry about that. I mean, we've seen we've seen uh uh politicians executed in in Minnesota. We see what happened here. We see what happened in the streets of New York, okay, with with an insurance executive. And that is what is just so troubling to me that we have we have devolved into this situation where people cannot state their mind without the risk of losing their life. >> I would uh agree with uh Al. Um you know, you hit the nail on the head there. It it also shows how quickly um it can all happen and uh you know how fragile it all is. And I I would I can only imagine that that there are a lot of people um around the world especially here in America thinking um thinking about the possibilities of uh of something like that happening to them. Um not unlike when John Lennon was assassinated. um you know a lot of rock and rollers started getting uh some serious uh security as a result. >> Yeah, >> it's troubling, you know, and and the whole the whole thing that bothers me is that there's no reason for this. There's no reason why a person can't explain, you know, their position and and that you can have an opinion different than mine. I mean, you know, the three of us work together very well. And the three of us have very very different views on a number of different things. >> Oh, for sure. >> And for sure >> we we have very very different views on things. >> You two didn't work the first time. >> Well, >> that's a good point. >> We could have made a lot of money though, Jonesy, if they bring it back. >> That's true. Um, so you know, when you take a look at it from the standpoint of that diversity of ideas is the essence of this country and the ability to be able to state your mind regardless of the fact that I agree or I disagree. Okay, he has the right to state his mind. And what has happened here is now you've put a a chilling effect on people. >> It's one step further in this case. this one step further because he spoke his mind, but he gave a platform to people to debate him and and this is a guy and yes, he's he's an activist and all of that, but he was a social media star and celebrity who had a platform that reached millions and millions of people and he invited people to disagree with him and to debate the issues on his platform. giving a platform to people who had opinions who would never have an ability to reach that many people with their ideas, right? So, while he created this for himself obviously um and and and created an incredible following, part of that was okay, this is what I believe. Here's my platform with millions of people watching these videos that I post from college campuses across America. And when you come up to the microphone, guess what? You have the same access to express your ideas. It's the exchange of ideas. It's the debate. And then um to me, he shared that microphone. And and that's what makes it doubly troubling, right? Because this was this wasn't just about him getting up there on a soapbox and preaching. This was him engaging the other side in conversation, which is the solution to all of this. Because what is the situation right now in society? And and and and I'll tell you where we saw it in our world during the Karen Reed trial. We had people who stayed within their bubble, their sound chamber. There were people that I tried to invite onto my show because I had people from either side talking about the way they saw the evidence and I had people who would not go on my show because someone who had a different opinion than them about the evidence in the case was appearing and that's the truth because I invited all these out a lot of outspoken people from both sides on the case and some would not come on the show because the other side was speaking. That's when we run into all this hate and where we dehumanize people and and and their opinions is when we don't exchange the ideas where we just kind of look at them as as less than than less than uh what's the word I'm looking for? I need to buy a vow. But less than human to to um their perspective, right? They have a perspective. It's theirs. It's different than mine, but they're so low, they're so wrong that they don't even get the ability to be here with me at the same time to debate this. And once the debate ends, that's when we run into trouble. And to me, that was the most troubling part of this because his career, his social media presence was built on public debate. And when public debate disappears, especially on university campuses, the future is bleak. And that's what he was doing. And and that's why that's that's why, you know, I feel so strongly about the freedom of speech that Al was talking about. But this was even one step further, which is the exchange of ideas, which which is what we preach in our chat room. You know, in our chat room, we don't have to agree. These are criminal cases. is there are always two sides to the case. At least two sides to the case. Make your point. Make your argument. Back it up with facts. Don't make this into, oh, you you disagree with me. You're a bad person. No. That's what happened in the Karen Reed case. It may happen in this case. It may happen in the Manion case. Um, but it it shouldn't happen. And and those are my thoughts. I'm sorry I took a lot of time there, guys. >> No, it is that. But but you know what? You're on point with this. And and this is, you know, the the essence of college is to be a dissemination of ideas and to have opposite opinions and things along those lines and and to have that chance to to have your voice heard sometimes for the first time. Um you know, with where you believe politically or where you believe um religious-wise or whatever the situation is. and and just the the the chilling effect that this has on on discourse and and on on dissemination of ideas is frightening. It's absolutely frightening. >> I mean, this is this is what like I don't know what anyone thinks they do by silencing someone who is expressing ideas. It's not going to stop the ideas hopefully, but it's so it's such a you look at the the great people that have been assassinated in this country. Martin Luther King, you know, Robert, uh Robert Kennedy, uh John F. Kennedy. Okay. Um, going down the line, >> Abraham Lincoln, >> Abraham Lincoln, William McKinley, okay, who was was, you know, doing just trying to be a great president, James Garfield, okay, just silencing them for what purpose? It there's there's nothing that's achieved through assassination. There's nothing. You know what is achieved is a loss. It's a loss for society. And as I said, I don't necessarily agree with Mr. Kirk and what he has done and what he's his positions are, but I absolutely believe that he has brought to the forefront something that is wonderful, which is what you were bringing up, discourse, conversation, didn't back down from from fighting somebody who had a different opinion. I find that to be wonderful because I have been on shows where people have turned off the volume when they didn't agree with what I had to say and you know didn't want to hear it. He did want to hear it. Okay. And he wanted to combat it. Okay. And maybe I don't agree with his the way he he came to the decision he did. Fine. But at least he was willing to listen to the other side and then talk about it and and he's been doing it since he was like 16. So I mean, you know, he really it's it's it's remarkable. >> I would think I would think that we also shouldn't lose uh sight of the fact that, you know, this is the exception, the um the alleged assassin. Uh clearly in my opinion, um there's something wrong up here. You know, it goes beyond >> Oh, we're going to get into that. words. The elevator doesn't go to the top floor. He's one short one banana short of a bunch. >> Yeah. And what we're So, we're going to get into let's let's first uh establish some of the facts that we learned um from the press conference this morning and it was really a lot of it came from uh the governor the governor of Utah who kind of took the lead. So, let's take a listen to some of what he said. I I'll probably press stop as we're going through because there's different points that I that I want to hit on this. Let's take a look. family member of Tyler Robinson reached out to a family friend who contacted the Washington County Sheriff's Office with information that Robinson had confessed to them or implied that he had committed the incident. This information was relayed to the Utah County Sheriff's Office and scene investigators at Utah Valley University. This information was also conveyed to the FBI. Investigators reviewed additional f video footage from UVU surveillance and identified Robinson arriving on UVU campus in a grade Dodge Challenger at approximately 8:29 a.m. on September 10th. I want to start before we get into the timeline of of what happened here, and that'll be some of the facts for the trial, how he ended up surrendering. To me, this was um the right thing done by the family, but unusual. You the governor came out and twice referenced the DPEN, right? We try not to say that word, but um it's the ultimate punishment, right? >> Right. It's it's the penalty of the D depen. Okay. So the family everyone knows that the mindset of prosecutors here led by the chief law enforcement officer of the state who's the governor is that this is a case where we are going to seek the ultimate punishment. And despite that, when the family and the friend of the family got wind that um Tyler Robinson may be the one responsible, he's admitting to it. He's providing information that is very inculpatory. They still contact authorities. Well, being uh you know, being in authority, I think maybe they they also realize like um in spite of the fact that what the consequences are um there is no escape. There is like no escaping justice on this. Um so he he may as well just uh turn himself in. >> But it's the family that's doing it. The family is making the call. I mean, that's that is bold. That is brave. It is the right thing to do. But it's I think it's kind of unusual. >> Sure. >> Especially in light of the fact that we already know the mindset of prosecutors here. >> We we saw >> there's no way out. >> Well, I mean, they had not found him. And you know, it was interesting because last night, if you were watching any of the news broadcasts, I mean, they were basically like, we, you know, we're we're turning to the public because we can't find this guy. Okay. So, they were in a quandry at that point. And that's with the fact that they had a a palm print, a footprint. They had some other uh evidence that they were able to, you know, try to put together and they were still saying we have no idea where this guy is. That's why we're putting all these pictures out there. And that's why they put the pictures out there is that right, >> which is how they got Luigi, if you remember. Now, with the family calling in, I'm that's reminiscent of the uni bomber, okay, whose brother had said, you know, saw this stuff and and said, "Oh my gosh, this is this is I think this is my brother, but he had negotiated a deal that they wouldn't go after him with the Den >> before he turned him in and gave them the information that they needed to find him because he was in a mountain somewhere and and so like that situation. So, you're right that this is a very rare instance where they don't have a lawyer coming in and saying, "Let's negotiate his surrender. Let's try to do this. You tell me you'll do this, we'll bring him in." And they didn't do that. They just went flat out, you know, he's he's been captured. and that, you know, that that may come back to haunt. Um, but also it it may work to their advantage. Um, showing it that he had remorse, he had all those other kind of things going on. Um, and that, you know, that the diminished capacity defense that >> Oh, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. >> That may be part of that. >> Right. Well, here here's, you know, I I I make a comparison. high-profile case. Gabby Patito, Brian Laundry, like the parents knew what he did. They did nothing to facilitate surrender. They did everything to protect their their child. Did the exact opposite. And as a matter of fact, in that case, the the victim's parents who were out at Crime Con had no idea what was going on and they were begging for information and the parents did nothing. Not only did they not like turn their son in, they did everything to protect him and they did everything to keep information from Gabby's parents, which is which was the outrage of that. So, but you know, everyone that saw that like outraged by it, but you know, some people are like, "Well, what would you do if it was your child?" Well, here's another scenario. Highest profile case in the nation. It's your child. You made the call. You did the right thing. Um what we don't know um necessarily is if there was any level of negotiation at any point that they haven't made public. We don't know that. Um the governor today didn't mention the DPEN again. Um so I don't know if something did happen. We may learn about that. But just the fact that that was so public in this uh to me was was um an interesting turn of events in the way he was captured. It was a friend and the family together. Let's continue to listen as we get now into some of the evidence in the case and the timeline of how this happened. in which he is observed on video in a plain maroon t-shirt, light colored shorts, a black hat with a white logo, and light colored shoes. When encountered in person by investigators in Washington County on September 12th, in the early morning hours, Robinson was observed in consistent clothing with those surveillance images. Interviewed a family member of Robinson who stated that Robinson had become more political in recent years. The family member referenced a recent incident in which Robinson came to dinner prior to September 10th. And in the conversation with another family member, Robinson mentioned Charlie Kirk was coming to UVU. They talked about why they didn't like him and the viewpoints that he had. The family member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate. The family member also confirmed Robinson had a gray Dodge Challenger. >> Okay, couple things here. getting into building a case. He changed his clothes. So apparently he climbed on that roof in one outfit, changed the outfit when he got on the roof to the darker clothing, did the escape, and then changed back into those clothes, and he ended up getting arrested wearing the clothing that he was originally wearing. Now, he lives three and a half, four hours away in southern Utah. So, he had to make that drive up early that morning to get up there. >> It's like 250 miles. >> Yeah. Like, so if he's there at at I don't know what they say, 8:40 in the morning, if he's there that early, he leaves like four o'clock in the morning. This is a guy on a mission. Uh but he also has a plan. These conversations about Charlie Kirk coming to Utah, um gets us into premeditation. Um, and it also gets us into a very specific target and and a reason for it as well, which all plays into the case. How? >> Yes, absolutely. That the what what I'm a little concerned about is that, you know, they're giving out some details and stuff like that. And I understand that there's things that like right now because of of the the way people are and how this is affecting people across the the nation um you know to start throwing out the political stuff at this stage I don't think is a smart move on the part of the governor of Utah. I think they should be keeping the motives basically quiet. They've got him. they've got enough evidence that they can go forward and then that comes out at the time of trial which will be down the road a ways. Right now is a time that we need to get people to start, you know, getting together, not making more political. >> I think everyone wants to know why. >> But but the point is is this that don't >> a public threat. This is a very public threat. >> It's not a public threat. It's a single person that made a that did something. >> There were 3,000 people there, >> but it it was one person. one person. They don't have any proof that there was anything more than one person. Okay. So, you have a lone 3,000 lone nut in front of this impacted >> um people everywhere. I think there's an obligation on our elected officials like a governor to to try to, you know, communicate with the public in in something that's been very traumatic for the people that were there. one of whom will be on my show tonight. Um it was very close to what happened um in Utah is going to join me on my show tonight at 8 o'clock. But it impacted everyone there. But again, I started the show off talking about how so many of us feel like we witnessed this because of this was live streamed and then the video was everywhere and we saw what happened. So I think there is some obligation to kind of give some context and and some understanding as to why this happened. >> Do do we want riots? Do we want things? >> It's not going to cause a riot. There's no riots. >> Well, you don't know right now. Look, there there were people out making statements about what they believed was the reason why this was happening and who they were blaming. Okay. >> Gets rid of the speculation. >> We don't need that. No, it didn't. It actually feeds upon it. And that's >> does not feed upon. Otherwise, you're going to have all these conspiracies that are flying all over the internet. >> It's not a conspiracy. There's a trial in this instance. I don't think we're going to have a situation where a a certain uh you know, cabaret owner is going to walk into the uh garage and and take the guy out before he testifies. >> No, but I don't think that's going to happen. >> The concern here is who did this? Why did they do it? And are they are they connected to some greater network of people? That's the safety concern for everyone. >> And you can say this, we have a belief that this this this and we do not believe that there is anything else. >> But you got to tell them why. >> I don't think it's >> you got to tell them why. Otherwise, everyone questions everything. If if if you give conclusions without a basis for it, people are like, "Okay, you can tell us that, but tell us why." And at least he's backing it up with some rudimentary facts behind this that I think will will will give an opportunity for the public to say, "Okay, we get it. We we get what happened here. We we understand." >> We need to come together and not pull apart. >> That doesn't pull apart. These are the facts. >> Oh, it certainly Look at what happened with Luigi. Look at what happened with that. Okay. You and I have seen people that are sitting there going that guy got what he deserved this that the other thing. Yeah. >> Before they captured him raising money for him before he >> How does anybody justify the cold blood killing of Kirk or the cold blood killing of of an executive who goes to work each day with a lunch pale and and goes home at night to his family. Okay. And kills him because he works for a company. Right. >> Right. This is where my problems lie. I don't like seeing that. All right. >> No, but what does it have to do with the governor telling us why this happened? >> Because now you're going to be having people going that the people on the left, okay, are the enemy. We got to take care of the people on the left. They're the ones. >> We've already had that in the last day or >> that existed already. The question is how how big of a network was this or was this what we refer to as the lone wolf? it it is a lone wolf and we know it's a lone wolf and they know it's a lone wolf because if they didn't know it was a lone wolf they wouldn't be talking. >> They say it at the at the end of the conference he's asked the question about whether or not he thinks there's anyone else. He says no there's no one else but the investigation is continuing >> not putting a a period at the end of this sentence but maybe like a dot dot dot just in case. But it seems as soon as anyone close to him knew of this they made the call. They don't know. They don't know how he got his weapon. I mean, there's still a lot of things that need to be >> a hunting rifle, >> right? But they don't know how he got it. I mean, he may have bought it himself. He may not have guessed most people in Utah in deer season have one. >> Well, I would imagine that, too. A boltaction rifle like that. You're right. You know, um, >> it's a deer hunting rifle. >> Well, he was a damn good shot, right? I mean, like, you don't learn that hunting, do you? >> No. Yes. >> Yeah, you do. That That's It's That's a hunting shot. from that >> 400 ft. >> That that that's not as far as you you know with you have a scope and everything else that's not as far as you might think. >> No, it wasn't. >> You know, because I mean initially everyone was like, "Oh my god, he must be military trained and this that the other thing." And I was like, "No, it's not far enough for that. >> 500 yards is military trained. Okay, 400 feet is not." >> Okay, that's hunting that that you're not going to get that close to a deer. I mean, you know, you can sometimes, but the most part you're taking a shot like that. >> Yeah. You got to be wearing moccasins to get that close to a deer. You got to really like tip. I can't think of the damn movie. I'm sorry. >> All right, Jones, you want to use your first timeout? You have two left. >> Let's get back to the press conference. >> Ha. They did it in half. >> Investigators identified an individual as the roommate of Robinson. Investigators interviewed that roommate who stated that his roommate, referring to Robinson, made a joke on Discord. Investigators asked if he would show them the messages on Discord. He opened it and showed several messages to investigators and allowed investigators to take photos of the screen as each message was shown by Robinson's roommate. These photos consisted of various messages, including content of messages between the phone contact named Tyler with an emoji icon and Robinson's roommate's device. The content of these messages included messages affiliated with the contact Tyler stating a need to retrieve a rifle from a drop point, leaving the rifle in a bush, messages related to a to visually watching the area where a rifle was left, and a message referring to having left the rifle wrapped in a towel. The messages also refer to engraving bullets and a mention of a scope and the rifle being unique. Messages from the contact Tyler also mentioned that he had changed outfits. Okay, so this is after I think these communications are after the fact. This is direct evidence. This is admissions. Um, we know that the weapon was found wrapped in a towel in the bushes. Um, my guess is the timestamp of this would preede them retrieving the the the weapon. Um, so all of this is extremely incriminating. Um, I don't believe based upon what they're saying right here that there will be any ability to provide a valid defense on the aspect of who did this. Okay, leaving out the men's rehea just like who did this. I don't think this is a who done it based upon the level of evidence that we have. Um, including all this video and and let let's I'm just going to cut this off for a second because I know he's getting into another section here. Um, and we'll take a look at the um the video of the escape. And in the video of the escape, you'll see something that looks like it's wrapped in a towel when he jumps off the roof. And you can see him running across here. He runs behind the part of the top of the building that's sticking up and then he'll appear on the right side of the building. There he is again running. This is afterwards. Now they zoom in on him. You can see he's sort of holding something that's wrapped. We believe that's the weapon. He scales part of this and then drops I don't know 15 feet or so. has the the item that is wrapped and begins to run away. And it and it replays one more time here. So, the bottom line here is for someone to do this, you've got to be young. He's 22 years old, so you could I mean that matches. And he again flees on foot into the neighborhood that is that is close by. And that item appears in his hand appears to have been found in that wooded area which coincides with the discord message to his roommate. So all those pieces fit together very well. >> Very well. >> Like like it's it's it's not, you know, it's not a mystery. Like these things fit perfectly together. There's nothing inconsistent that leaves you scratching your head like what? Why? No, that doesn't make sense. I mean, makes sense. >> Except why he's writing all that down, you know, >> to his roommate. >> Yeah. Right. >> Exactly. Why are you writing all that down? That's the only part I have a wife on. I mean, why would you do that? Basically, it's a confession. Okay. So now that may, you know, we'll get on to the uh the mental defense on this a little bit later, I guess. But >> yeah, we we'll get in there in a second because I have some more that I want to um put on the uh on the table here and then we'll get into um the defense and the potential penalty here. So, let's get back to it. I know there has been speculation as well as to uh the the writing on those casings, those those uh those bullet casings and uh I believe we have that as well and I So, the area north of Campus Drive Road where the suspect crossed over. You saw some of that in the video that we released last night consists of a grassy area with trees on the edge of the UVU campus. Investigators discovered a bolt-action rifle wrapped in a dark colored towel. The rifle was determined to be a Mouser model 98 300 6 caliber 306 caliber boltaction rifle. The rifle had a scope mounted on top of it. Investigators noted inscriptions that had been engraved on casings found with the rifle. Inscriptions on a fired casing read, "Notices, bulges, capital O, what's this?" Inscriptions on the three unfired casings read, "Hey, fascist exclamation point. Catch exclamation point." Up arrow symbol, right arrow, and uh symbol, and three down arrow symbols. A second unfired casing read, "O Bella Chow, Bellachchow, Bellachchow, Chow Chow." And a third unfired casing read, >> Okay, Jonesy, you're shaking your head. Go ahead. >> That last one just like, you know, struck me. Um, what what that kind of like blows my mind like why I would write something like that? >> Where did that Where does that come from? I I >> Yeah. Yeah. like an attempt at comedy. I mean, what the hell's going on in his head? >> Well, what's going on in his head, right? That that becomes >> um the potential defense. Now, I want to lay this out for everybody so they they understand. >> Before we before we lay that out, let let's um I know we're not going to do a day in history just yet, but historically, Bellicho, okay, is an Italian phrase. It means goodbye lovely, goodbye beautiful. >> It was a phrase that was adopted not during World War II, okay, but after World War II by the Italian partisans that had been the ones that stood up to the Nazis that had occupied Italy. Now initially Italy was part of the axis powers. Okay, under Mussolini and Mussolini was a fascist. There were partisans that were communists and and other groups that had bonded together to try to overturn the fascist groups and and Mousolini was deposed, but then also to get the Nazis out of Italy. So >> you think he's not sophisticated that he historically he would know that? >> Well, that's the interesting part of this is that it is a very I mean because why else would you use the phrase Bella? When I heard that that was the part that like you know kind of wow wait a minute I haven't heard that phrase used and not especially not by a 22 year old. >> Okay. Because I don't think that the that the Italians even used this. It was originally an old song that dealt with women that were working in the in patty farms that were working day in day out. >> It's a very common phrase like Bella Chow Bella. >> Yeah, but this is but Bella Chow >> Bella Chow is different. >> Bella Chow is different. It was an old song that dealt with women that were working the fields, okay? that worked under horrendous horrendous types of of uh you know low pay, long hours and and and terrible tyrants that were in charge. Then they in right after World War II, they adopted the song as a a partisan song. So there's actually two sets of lyrics in Italian for this song. One before World War II and then one after World War II. The one after World War II is the attempt to get rid of the fascists that were in Italy and the partisans that stood up to the fascists. So that from a historical standpoint, you know where that's coming from. >> Well, he wrote it for a reason, so you may very well be on to something there. >> Yeah. No, I I agree. That's why that's why Al is the the master of history. What's what's interesting and ironic this young man believes that you fight fascism by suppressing speech you don't like when that is the definition of fascist behavior. >> True. >> Is silencing speech you don't like. Like the the irony could not be richer and it could not be it could not demonstrate more vividly how misguided he is in attempting to fight fascism by silencing speech like the younger generation if he is uh if he is if anyone believes the same way he does is so ironically misguided. It it it it's it's like a um it should be a mark against our our education system that these kids either don't get it or are taught by people who don't get it. I don't understand that. Like you are against fascism so we're going to shut down the speech. I don't agree with what. Anyhow, let's get to So, to me, Al obviously diving deeper into that than I did on the notes, I thought like the L I I I jumped on what Jonesy jumped on, which is the the LM FO or whatever it was. Right. >> Right. Right. >> And and and almost the things that didn't make a lot of sense to me. So, it gets to his state of mind. But this is what is important and people have to understand. You know, in in most states when you have the insanity defense, it's someone who doesn't appreciate the wrongfulness of their conduct. So arguably, if you have someone who believes he's taking out a fascist, then they believe they're doing good. So they can't tell the difference between good and evil. They don't appreciate the wrongfulness of what they're doing because what they believe they're doing is good becomes the basis for their insanity defense. You don't appreciate the wrongfulness of of your actions. You can't distinguish between right and wrong. You believe you're saving your child when you're taking your child's life, but you believe you're saving your child from Satan and delivering them to God. Or you believe you're taking out a dangerous fascist. Right. >> Right. So in other words, >> you don't have that in Utah, >> right? But well, that the traditional defense is what we're talking about now, which is that you are not responsible for your actions due to severe mental disease or defect uh at the time of the crime. Okay. So that is where you get that um defense. But you're right, Utah's not like that. Utah goes towards Yeah. And you mentioned the word earlier, and I just want to make sure everyone knows what we're talking about. Men's rehea. Okay. State of mind. Okay, men's rehea and men's rehea is part of the criminal process. I mean that that's what you have to be able to demonstrate and Utah's approach is that it negates the the men's rhea. Okay, that if you can show that um your mental defect is so severe that you didn't have the intent to commit the act, then the prosecutor the prosecution cannot prove the crime. So, it's a it is it is different. It's significantly different and it's also an interesting way of now, you know, putting this with some of the puzzle pieces going forward. They may be trying to move that way. >> Yeah. This is the only defense and put it up on the board here. Diminished capacity focuses on the argument that the defendant lacked the required specific intent for the crime. >> Men's rehea. That's the >> menrea. For example, a person may have a diminished capacity to form the intent to kill, which could lead to a conviction for a lesser homicide offense rather than firstdegree red rum. Right? So, in Utah, it it really doesn't get you don't hear the words not guilty associated with the insanity defense. It's either guilty of a lesser crime or I think they also have guilty but mentally ill which deals with what happens to them afterwards whether they get treatment but they never get out >> like someone not guilty by reason and sanity always has a chance to be set free. >> So and and the reality is is that this is virtually impossible to win in a courtroom. Virtually impossible. Uh there's always exceptions, but I don't believe this is one case where diminished capacity is going to work at all because he knew exactly what he was doing. Everything that he did to hide his identity, to sneak up there, everything that he did afterwards in covering it up, everything he did in discussing who he was going after and what he thought of them, all those pieces fit together and completely undermine any mental defense that they would attempt. But I believe they will attempt it because it's the only thing they have if this evidence is what they are saying it is. What else do you have? I mean, you know, I they don't they don't give you the opportunity to have like even um you know, temporary insanity or anything along those lines. Um you know, it's got to be negating the men's rhea, which is a very difficult very difficult thing to do, especially in light of the fact that, you know, you see the the recipe for destruction that he put in the computer. >> Yeah. >> That he put right there. That demonstrates a lot with regards to state of mind and demonstrates that he knew what he was doing and was taking steps to try to you know protect himself from being uh you know apprehended. >> Appreh Yeah. And that's consciousness of guilt, right? So you know what you did was wrong even though that's not but you know what you did like you had the intent to do it. It was very specific. Now, let's let's get into what I believe the the case when it gets into court will actually be about. Um, I'm sure this will be raised at the guilt phase of the trial. I don't think it will be successful, but they will attempt to do it because they're laying the groundwork for the part of the case that I think will be the most significant, which would be the penalty phase, excuse me, the penalty phase, which is the punishment. Now, I am going under a presumption that the governor is going to proceed the way um he had indicated, which was they're going for the ultimate punishment. Utah is a state that has the D-p. Okay, they can put people on the row. Okay, that's what he said. So, based on that, let's look at a little bit of the law here because I don't think this is a slam dunk. >> I have to just jump off for one minute. I hope you don't mind. >> Yeah. Oh, good. We finally got rid of him, Jonesy. Holy mackerel. I just No, I'm only kidding, folks. Um, so the first thing is it not every case qualifies for the deep end. So there are different different um elements that need to be uh fulfilled. I believe this is one that they could argue very easily. The actor, which would be the defendant, knowingly created a great risk of death to a person other than the victim and the actor. This is in the middle of 3,000 people. It couldn't be more public. Um, anything could have happened. Um, someone could have moved suddenly in front of him. He could have missed. People could have trampled each other running out. None of that happened. Um, but I think a a great risk of death to someone else that was there that day is is is arguably um there's an ability to establish that. I think they will argue against it, the defense, but uh what are your thoughts here, Jones? Like how how dangerous do you see this situation, right? Does it create that risk to anyone else? >> I think it absolutely does. Um I I think in you know in in most any case where where somebody does this sort of thing uh it creates risk to others whether it be responding u responding officers or whatever the case may be. I mean even when people uh perform stunts in public or decide they're going to climb a bridge um they're creating that situation. So certainly if you take out a guy with with a gun from you know 400 ft with 3,000 people there you're you're you're doing that. >> Al, where are you on this? Because this is one of the ways to get it to the deep end for uh prosecutors. >> There there's there's first of all there's no way that they're not going to go for the deep end on this and >> but it's going to be challenged. It's not you're it's going to be a very difficult challenge. very difficult challenge because under the circumstances you basically it's shooting a bullet into a crowded uh you know amphitheater okay is a reckless dangerous act and in and of itself it is just inherently dangerous so I mean you're not going to be able to get around that I mean you know it might been different if if maybe he was at his car after the thing was over there was no one else around or that he was in a private entrance way, but at at an amphitheater, 3,000 people and and I've seen videos that have come out, you know, that showed what happened with the crowd going crazy, running and and all the other stuff. There's no way that they're not going to be able there's there's no the no attorney is going to be able to beat that aspect of it. >> Okay, there's another one. The perpetrator placed special consideration on the victim's identity. For instance, the victim is a public official or a law enforcement officer, a public servant, or the victim is a minor under the age of 14. So, not under the age of 14, not a public official. >> Oh, >> not law enforcement, >> right? >> But the perpetrator here had a very specific target for a very specific reason. And I believe that would fall under the special consideration. the the perpetrator did place special consideration on the identity of the victim. This wasn't random. This was very specific for a very specific reason and mentality. So, I think arguably they will um identify this as another uh reason why they will seek the deepen in this case. >> Yeah, there's there's no doubt about that. I mean, he's not a public official, but he is certainly a public persona. um and he is being targeted because of his views, his political views. So I think you've got I think they've satisfied that element of the uh you know the of the law in this instance. Absolutely. Now, the final one. Um, this one I'm always like to me every red rum is cruel and heinous, but the the the test is particularly so I was thinking about how would prosecutors argue this one because there's no torture involved, anything like that, right? Um, but it was cruel and heinous to the 3,000 people who were there. But I don't know if that qualifies. This one I think is a little more difficult because here you're putting on a scale. You know, you're comparing red rums to red rums and is it particularly cruel or heinous? I would argue because of the public nature of it that it is. >> I I wouldn't even go on that aspect. I would just go on the fact I would show how he bled out in there was no chance of survival on that. None. >> Now, what's did you notice this? He was He was wearing a vest. >> Yes. Yep. >> And it was a It seems like it was a ricochet off the edge of the vest. >> And that's right. >> That hits there and then goes directly to the neck. >> And he bled out. I mean, bled out in a matter of seconds. There was no way then. That's why I think it's it would be I would be able to use that is a particularly cruel or heinous manner. I mean, you know, shooting someone I believe is horrible in and of itself, but the essence of that is the bleed out, the way it happened while he was basically conscious of it. And I think that's what they'll end up doing is they'll show that he was able to know that it was just he was losing life in a split second of just just that blood coming out. And I think you could be able to get I I don't think there's any doubt in my mind that they can prove that point either. >> Okay. So now you get to the penalty phase of the case. It becomes about the defendant, right? It becomes a lot about the defendant in the penalty phase. What's interesting here is we're trying to figure out like how does this happen? This is a kid who grows up in southern Utah and goes to school. He's 22 now, so he either graduated or is a senior. I'm not sure. He did not go to that university. He lived four hours away. But I want you to take a look at this video of him. This is, I believe, when he is getting ready to begin college and receives a scholarship. And let's take a look and a listen to this. >> Congratulations. You have been selected to receive the resident presidential scholarship from Utah State University. The value of this scholarship is approximately $32,000. This scholarship is available for four Okay, >> congratulations. >> I I How do you go from this? Right. You've got obviously he's got a supportive family. He's a scholarship kid. He's going to Utah State University. He seems relatively normal here. What happens? Like what h how do you go from this to throwing the rest of your life away? Just throwing it away at a point where hey, you're you're kind of excited and you know, he looks a little reserved. Uh but you know, a little excited. I'm going to school. I earned a scholarship. My my it sounds like it's his mom. Maybe my mom's excited. We're going off to school. How do you get from point A to point B? That's what I think a lot of the penalty phase will be about for the defense in trying to explain this. And are they going to explain it through um mental illness or are they going to explain this through something happened to him in in in in those four years or or just just the immaturity of youth? Yeah. I mean, there's there's, you know, you can take a look at at what's been done in the past, and you can see that that, you know, attorneys will turn this on to the fact that this is a young man who's confused, who's this, who's that, who thought he was going to be doing something that was going to help society and it backfired. But it's it's a tough this is a tough cell. >> It's a tough cell across the board. And >> and he's going to be in Utah. >> Yes. which has as a DPEN. It's a lethal injection or the firing squad. >> The firing squad. Sure. Now, there had been some talk years ago about Utah phasing out the DPEN. Um but that's not going to happen. That's that's not going to happen. It may happen somewhere down the road at some point. Uh but nowhere in the near future uh of this case at all. Um, now here's the question I have for you both because we don't, you know, the governor didn't mention the penalty today. Other times when he spoke, he made sure to mention it before the capture. Now he's been captured. He was turned in Do you think there was any negotiation or do you think that the governor and prosecutors may pull back on seeking the ultimate punishment here? >> I'm I think they're going to seek seek the ultimate punishment. I think maybe he just pulled back because um in my opinion I feel it uh a little inappropriate that he was saying that before um anybody was captured, charged or um you know whatever the case may be. I >> I I think that the situation is that he was probably told by his attorney general, you shouldn't be bringing this stuff up at this stage of the game. Okay? because it's going to put us in a position where they're going to say that he can't get a fair trial in Utah because you've already poisoned the entire jury pool with these comments. You got to be careful. You have to be >> getting a trial in Utah. >> Well, but what I'm saying is my argument would be, wait a minute, you know what? It's like it's it's like that famous scene in the uh the trial of Charles Manson where Manson got a newspaper and hung it up in front of a jury and said Nixon says Manson guilty. Okay. And they he put that in front of the jury. The entire place went nuts. And then he was like, "How do I get a fair trial when the president of the United States says I'm already guilty?" Okay. So, it's it's you don't want to do that. and and I don't think he wants to poison, you know, the pool. And that's a smart move on his part to keep that rhetoric down and go through it and let the attorney general be the one or the state's prosecutors be the one that's going to this is what we're doing. I'm not doing what the governor wants. I'm doing what's in the best interest of the people of the state of Utah. And and what's what's what's interesting is we're going to find out in three days because um within three days they're going to file all the papers. There's a certain notice requirement and if they're going to do it, I think everything will be laid out very very quickly in this case. If they are going to allege diminish capacity, we'll hear about that very quickly as well. Everything has I think about a 60-day window in it, but I think it'll be sooner rather than later. The governor mentioned that they were already preparing some of the paperwork for this. So, um, and that was before the capture. So, that's where we are. Here's what I want to do before we run out of time. At the top, I mentioned that we're going to talk about, uh, Crime Con or not. Um, we may or may not. I'm going to take a a survey online to see if people want us to even switch to that or come back on another day to talk about Crime Con. Um, but I want to get to some of the comments. And what I'm going to say is um you know I always put you know we put I put random comments up and I I try to get to all the super chats and then some random comments as well. One thing that has been my mission on this live stream on my TV show and everything else. Sometimes I got to >> This is not this is not politics. Sometimes politics crosses into the world of law and we handle it as best we can. But I never want this live stream or my television program to turn into a political debate because that gets us nowhere, right? >> You've got all these other networks that spend 24 hours a day talking about it in their in their sound chambers or bubble rooms or whatever we call them. um and people online doing it. I always try to bring it back to the system of justice. I try to bring it back, but the system of justice is is is political. It it is influenced politically. So that there's going to be that crossover. So there may be some comments, including the first one, that is going to hit one of those buttons, but um with with no disrespect to people's opinions, um I'm not going to engage in that debate here. Okay? and me, Al Jonesy, we may all have different viewpoints of this. Like I said, I want to bring back prohibition. These two guys are against it. I don't know why, but they are. But I guess >> I found out at Crime Con say obviously you didn't see our dinner tab. >> So So let's get to some of the comments, but some of them we may not have a a long discussion about. So I'm just kind of letting you know that. I'm just just putting it out there, folks. All right. First one comes from Brooklyn. in Brooklyn Janet, our friend. Let's address the elephant in the room. GOP beholden to gun lobby. We need sensible gun laws. Stop voting for Republicans. That's a pretty political station statement. Uh Brooklyn Jen, I appreciate um the support and I appreciate you airing the way you uh feel and believe about all this. Um >> may I say one thing on that? >> Oh, here we go. Here we go. Jonesy, >> one thing. There are more guns in this country than people. Yes. >> Okay. More guns than there are people. So I that I'm not going to comment politically. I you know with regards to what was said, but I want to prove my point. There were more guns than people in the United States. >> And I'd like to say that I met Brooklyn Janet at Crime and uh she was amazing. >> She was delightful. >> Yes. And I'd like to point out that my grandfather cut Babe Ruth's hair. My uncle Heap lived in Military Park in New York. Thank you. >> On this day in history Oh, we're not doing the history thing yet. On this day in history, we're not doing >> Not yet. No. Uh, Sana, has anyone heard about the book, The Shooting of Charlie Kirk, released on Amazon on September 9th? All right. I saw a lot of posts about this. >> I I have not seen a verification of it. Does it exist? If so, who wrote it? How did they know? Um, it's very eerie if it's true, but I also know people can do deep fake things online. So, I am not sure. >> Um, if that is true, there's more to this. >> If it's not true, then it's another one of the deep fakes that we always have to be careful about, especially in the moments after something like this and we're trying to get to the truth. It's gotten to the point with AI that I can't believe cat videos anymore. >> For real. >> For real. Like you see these cats doing stuff that >> my favorite ones are the babies that talk now. Have you seen the babies that talk? >> I missed the dancing baby. Remember when the internet first came out? Like the there was a dancing baby. I hate I hated it. But uh all the all the ladies I worked with thought he was adorable. >> Yeah. But but uh yeah, now they talk. It's amazing. All right, Cindy Vance, the why will never make sense. If we could understand, then we would be just as disturbed. That's interesting. So, so I think what Cindy is saying here is that this is a case of mental illness. Mental illness will absolutely play a role in the penalty phase if they're seeking the depen. um may or may not impact guilt or innocence uh because it's so difficult in Utah. Um, but I think everyone's going to react that way that to to to take your whole life as a 22 year old and like nothing is going to get like a case of a 22-year-old, you know, you know, taking someone out in a in in a vendetta, you know, a personal vendetta where someone, you know, was threatening them or they're involved in crime and and they're trying to escape and they feel like someone may catch them like a 22-year-old can throw your whole life away that way. Not that that's excusable, but I understand that. And I understand how someone can have a criminal mind without being mentally ill and do that. >> A 22year-old has not yet learned that this too shall pass. >> Yeah. But how how does a 22-year-old like not understand like your whole life is over? It's over. Like you like to play video games, whatever whatever you like. You like to have a good meal. you like to maybe give your mom a hug, that's all gone. It's gone like that. So, I always think that there is some level of mental illness which again is different than legal insanity and can be different than diminished capacity. Thank you, Cindy. All right, I'm just scrolling through here. Get all the super chats first. >> And I'll say that anybody who uh would do something like this is bat crazy. >> Yeah. Okay. PMD jumps off the roof with gun disassembled, then reassembles it and leaves it in the woods. It makes no sense. Too many questions. Do you believe We'll take another look at the video as he's jumping off. Do you believe that the the the weapon is disassembled? Let's take a look. Um I'll get us out of the way here. One second. >> I don't know why I don't know why he wouldn't just leave it on the roof. >> Well, I think he he he planned on on going back to get it because that's what that that message was about, right? Yeah. >> Oh. All right, there he is running all the way. Can't quite tell from there. Let's see. Is he jumping off? I think we get an idea. Is it Does it look disassembled or does it look like it's together? Can you tell? >> It it >> it's hanging a little bit. So, it could be disassembled. >> Disassembled doesn't take a lot to put back together again. I mean, you know, it's a break. I think we get the best look right there before he before he jumps down. We get a look here. I gota go back a little bit more. I'll try to hit the pause just at the right moment. All right. Does that look disassembled? I think it could be it could be all it could be assembled. I really do. I think the floppy part like the top could be there. The other part could be flopping a little bit. Um >> Oh, >> but here's what's going to happen with this. >> Break it down. It's probably easier to jump with it broken broken down anyway. >> Yeah. PMD has a lot of questions and I think this is going to be one of those stories in cases that will regardless of what happens in the courtroom, we will still continue to have questions about. I think people will continue to have questions about it. um they may never be. I just hope that this whatever happens is done transparently inside a Utah courtroom which are generally transparent with the information and whatever happens inside the courtroom. Brooklyn Janet's back. Why weren't flags raised a half staff last month when Democratic representatives were uh gunned down in their homes? Uh Kirk not elected. >> Very valid point. Very valid point. Very valid point. >> Yeah. >> Did you read that one's going to be an insanity defense? Did you read his his manifesto in Minnesota? >> Yes, I did. And and that that'll definitely be an insanity defense. There's no doubt about that. >> He thought he was getting people out of the way so the governor could be the senator, >> right? >> Does the Does the insanity defense ever work? Uh with the exception of one floor with the cuckoo's nest? >> No. The insanity defense. Well, >> wait. Go back to the the early 80s. >> When did it work? >> Colin Ferguson. >> No, >> no, no, no, no, no. It it worked with Ronald Reagan, >> right? And was it Hingley? >> Yes. >> Oh, yes. And he was free. >> And by the way, Utah changed their insanity defense law in the aftermath of the Hinckley not guilty by reason of insanity verdict. You know, just quickly >> after that happened, they changed to diminish capacity. They took the not guilty by reason of sanity off the books in Utah as a direct result of what happened to President Reagan. >> The um the interesting thing with regards to insanity and temporary insanity. It it all stems back to a case that occurred in the 18 late 1800s. Okay. Uh right before the Civil War, an individual by the name of Dan Sickls who was a Tammy Hall politician in New York City had a wife who was many years younger than he was and he was extremely jealous and she was having an affair with believe it or not Francis Scott Keyy's son >> and Junior. >> That wasn't Junior. >> Frankie Jr. >> wasn't Junior, but it was Francis Scott Keyy's son. He came in, stormed in on the in the bedroom, found the two of them together, and then red rummed uh the the young man. Didn't red rum the wife, red rum the young man, and the uh the they came up with the so-called um you know, temporary insanity defense. He was acquitted of that and then ended up becoming a general during the Civil War who ended up losing his leg at the Battle of Gettysburg. >> So, that's where we get it. And uh the Edwin Stanton who became the uh secretary of war. Okay. And then secretary of state under uh Lincoln was his lawyer in New York for the insanity defense. >> Interesting. And that to me that's that's more of a passion provocation. >> Yes. Right. That was but it was it was that he was >> defense there. >> He was you know and I don't think nowadays you'd be able to use that as a defense as well. But back in those days, it was so unheard of that something like that would happen that uh Ed Stanton was able to get them acquitted, not guilty, by reason of temporary insanity. All right, beautiful messy ball who was out there at Crime Con. Being misguided, ignorant doesn't take away responsibility or equate to insanity. Correct. It doesn't mean that they didn't know that killing is wrong. Correct. And what's interesting again, beautiful messy ball, um, is that in Utah, right from wrong is not the test because it's diminished capacity, not legal insanity. There is no not guilty by reason of insanity. There's only diminished capacity which could lower it from first degree to something less. Um, so but perfect legal analysis by beautiful Messi Ball. All right, let's I mean I just want to get I want to get current because we're running out of time. I think the way this is going to work out, folks, is we'll we'll do a separate um everything that happened at Crime Con live stream because I I just think this story um too much going on here and I want to get to some more of the um uh comments and we're going to be done shortly anyway. So, um while you're looking for a comment, just a couple quick things that happened on this day. Today in 1609, Henry Hudson discovered what would then become the Hudson River. For those of you who live on the >> Isn't that ironic that he discovered a river that h that was named after him? Like he could have discovered like a different river, but he discovered the Hudson River. >> He could have discovered the East River >> or or the Atlantic Ocean. Okay. But he found the Hudson River. The sad part about it is that in 1611 um he is actually forced off his ship and uh with his son and seven other guys set a drift and they never heard from him again. Okay. And then in 1953 JFK marries Jackie Lee Bouvier uh in St. Mary's Church in Newport, Rhode Island. And in 1966, The Monkeys debuted on NBC. Oh. Oh, they knocked the Beatles off the charts. >> That's right. >> Monkeys. >> That's right. >> PMD, who is not from the US, but lives in in in Spa, Spain, teaching English, which is awesome. Many of my students say they're afraid of the US because of guns. Um, United States very safe. If you want to know where you can go, you can't go. Um, you know, send a note to me, Alan Jones. We'll tell you the neighborhoods to stay out of. >> Stay out of my neighborhood. Stay out of Jonesy's neighborhood. Al's neighborhood. You'll be very, very safe. >> No problem there. >> Very, very safe. >> No problem there. >> But no, the United States is safe. But like any other uh place, there are some neighborhoods that might not be safe. There might be uh some events that may not be safe, >> but there's some parts of Spain that are not safe. I mean, you know, there there certain >> the running of the bulls. They got bulls running through the streets. How safe is that? >> Yeah. Let me tell you something. >> That's not safe. >> That's a lot of bull. That seems that seems very dangerous. By the way, uh, Gringa, politics is its own thing. The reasons people commit red rum are their own things. There's no justifiable reason to mix them. Thank you, Gringa. Well, well stated. Well stated, April Diaz, if you plead guilty, can you still get the D-pen and have a great weekend, loves? April, we're not going to play the song this time. We're just trying to keep the tone a little um a little more appropriate and and like I think we're all still in the wake of what happened here. But thank you so much, April Diaz. Thank you for your support. Um now, this is an important question because this happened in in the Parkland school case. The the the offender pleaded guilty, just pleaded guilty to the charges with no deal and then they had a trial and the trial was depen or no depend. So yes, you can still get the dpen if you walk into court and say I did it and prosecutors can still seek it if there's no agreement to not seek it. and and and the the famous case of Leopold and Lo was the same thing where who >> Liupold and Lo, okay, the the young men that that uh red rummed a a young tried to do the perfect crime and uh had red rum young man and Clarence Darrow had represented them. >> Of course, I didn't hear about it. It was before Court TV. >> Then Dar and Darrow and um well, I was in the audience. Daryl was there and what he did was he had them plead guilty and then argued against the Dpen and it turned out that they did not give them the Dpen. >> In that case, the judge he waved a jury and the judge had to make the decision and the judge ruled against the deep end. >> Alexandra Ma with a super sticker showing support. Thank you so much, Alexandra Amato. >> You Italian? You Italian? Maybe. I don't know. Could be. What do you think? >> May I call you Alex? >> Remember clam motto? >> Clam motto. >> No. >> Oh yeah, that was that that that the uh what it called? They had that the tomato juice that they had like clam juice in the tomato juice. >> Oh yeah, clam. I thought it was a person that clamato. I know that. I thought it was I thought he was like a boxer. Clamato. He fought Rocky Mariano back in like 1942. >> Wasn't he wasn't he the drummer for Blondie? He was the uh the the guy. He was he was going out with the hatch check girl in the uh you know in in in that club down the road there. >> By the way, folks, over 3,500 folks uh 3,500 people watching, including on the Court TV YouTube channel where Terresa Bell has become a member over there. Um, if if you're not subscribed to the Court TV YouTube, subscribe right now and get your membership where you get lots of great perks, amazing community, amazing folks over there at the Court TV YouTube channel. We're also streaming on mine and of course uh on Facebook, Twitch, and X and Gen X, one of our great mods. Uh, thank you so much, reminding everyone to hit the like button. All right, we're almost out of time here, so I'm gonna get to a few more of the questions. All right, Norm, what the bleep is a Dpen? That is >> But you know something, the reason you call, Norm, >> the reason you call it the Dpen, he does the same thing with the F word. >> Right. Right. Right. Exactly. So, we're not saying the whole word. Um because YouTube does this thing where they will not will not let people see your video if you say certain words. They because they have not anointed us as news, right? They've anointed us as I don't know just any old people that are streaming their podcast. So, we try to use words to so they don't set off any alarms or red flags with the with the um uh what do I call them with the um the uh oh, I have a word for these people on social media. Like they don't understand true crime. >> So do I. >> Yeah. Yeah, I have a word for like they don't understand true crime in our community. So often times they will suppress um our videos because we're talking about things that are serious. Um but it's news and it's and it's important and it's what we do. Um but there's such uh I'm I'm trying to think of the word oh control. >> Yeah. But there there to a certain extent um and I can't even say the word because that word will cause a problem. Um, but anyway, >> can you say can you say censorship? >> Yeah, censorship. They they're sensors and they senselessly censor true crime content, which >> standards and practices. >> No, they're not. No, they they have no standards because No, no. Because you know what gets you know what gets all the play on social media? Are are people breaking wind in public with their fake machines? Like breaking wind in people's faces. >> I don't like breaking wind stuff. I like cat videos. Those videos are like, "Oh, yeah. Look, he's breaking wind on an old lady. That's funny." Haha. >> And that's what social media supports as opposed to discussions about things that actually impact people's lives. But that's that's that's the long answer. Norm was his name. Norm. >> Yes. Norm. >> Namie. Hey there, Nami. >> Hey, Nami. All right. Um, let's see. We've got another one here from Mary D. Thank you so much. Love you all. But this is for the amazing mods, says Mary D, Frankie Figs, Gen X, Jennifer Subet, and of course Ashley Buchard. >> Love the mods. >> West of Facebook. >> Love Mary D. >> Yes, Margaret Sapola. >> Sticky fun >> with a super sticker. Oh, by the way, we we have some super stickers. We have a tangent super stickers now again. So, I think what we're going to do, folks, because we're out of time, we want to give it the time. So, we're going to uh at some point go live uh on a um sort of a Crime Con recap. So, guys, you may have to work this weekend. >> All right. >> It's fine by me. >> That's fine. >> So, I'm have to grab you for an hour this weekend to do to do something here. >> All right. So, uh just let me know when because I got I got the check game on Sunday. >> Yes. >> Got the uh the Savannah >> Jones got his radio extravaganza on Sundays. Also, >> you'll also be lucky if you can hear me from my home studio because there's a concert on the beach two blocks away. That's right. >> That >> not rock and roll. Is it that rock and roll? The devil's >> I can't believe rock and roll is coming to Asbury Park. I object to it. In fact, I really do hate the concert because they're bad neighbors, baby. >> What? What? What? Who's Who's playing down there? It's like they're with the sea. Um um uh >> LCD LCD sound system. >> I like file soul >> easy top. Uh there's like 20 bands. >> Oh my god. >> Oh wow. >> What I would hate. >> They're really bad neighbors. I sit on my lawn and uh listen to it and and make fun of them as they go by. >> Can you can you rent out your parking spot and make some money off it? >> I could, but I'm on the condo board association. It wouldn't feel right. But you should raise money for the whole condo association and do >> Oh, screw them. >> And do and do do these valet valet parking. >> They got enough of my money. Oh, yes. Yes. I was going to be valet. Remember I was helping you with your suitcase and you said I was dressed like a valet. So, you know what you did when you left crime? I when you left crime con, I kept hanging around the elevator grabbing people's wheelie cases and I collected uh $72. >> Nice. $72. Mary Parado, thank you for not crossing over to politics. Love your podcast here at on Court TV. Thank you, Mary. It's It's As soon as you cross that line, there's like no going back. >> I know. I know. I noticed I was very good, Vin. >> You were good, Al. >> I was surprised that you showed comments in that regard. >> Yeah. No, I I think everyone understands it's it's it's like there there is a political part of our criminal justice system. No doubt. Um, it's political in that in many jurisdictions, judges are directly elected. So that's politics. In other jurisdictions, judges are appointed. Like in the federal system, that's politics. My father appointed by President Reagan. >> I met a guy who waited on your uh father at a Montlair restaurant. >> He got a good tip, right? >> Yes. >> Of course. >> That's why he remembers him. >> Yeah. And my father got a good table because the mater got a nice handshake on the way in. Oh, >> the only way to do it, my friends. The only way to although they wouldn't they wouldn't go that way with me in Colorado for some reason. >> Yeah, that was interesting. But going out with and again, I don't want to cross over to what we're going to talk about Crime Con, but I'll just say for the record, going out to dinner with Al and it was it and I didn't say this at the time, but it was like it was like going out with my dad. Like I miss my dad so much, but it was like going out. Not that you're old, Al, but like >> like that same presence larger than life and all of that. It was so wonderful um to share those dinners with you because it's exactly what it was like as a child or as a young adult going out to dinner with my dad. The funniest thing is we would sit down to eat at a restaurant. It doesn't matter where we were. And I'm like, you know, me and my brother, my mom, my dad, and my dad is like bouncing up off the table talking to this one. This one's coming over, paying respects. And I was like, what is going on here? What is going on here? And then, you know, as I got older, I figured it all out. And um and that that is that's Al. Like that's Al. And I guess that's one of the reasons for this for for why we are together here. I think he was like placed here for a reason. Um, so that makes, you know, >> he was placed there to teach me dinner manners >> and teach you dinner man. Which fork do I use, Al? Which fork? >> How do I take this bread piece without touching it? >> All right, gentlemen. We are out of time um for today. U but but stay tuned folks because we're going to do the big Crime Con wrap up. We've got videos, we've got pictures, we've got stories um and and we'll do that. I know we won't get the same uh large crowd that we got today, but that's fine. Um, but we'll do it at sometime hopefully this weekend. If we can get the the boys in the band together this weekend, we will try to do that. But, uh, thank you so much for watching. Um, uh, thanks for all the super chats and thank you uh to our amazing mods and thank you everyone keeping the the conversation for the most part very civil. um not diving deeply into the politics, not making it personal, and not villainizing people who think differently than you. That should be the lesson um uh from all of this. And thank you to AB watching from Scotland >> over there. >> From the And Scotland is part of the UK, right, Al? So they're all part of the UK. Yeah. Yeah. Scotland, Wales, >> Ireland, England, and Northern Ireland. >> Northern Ireland. >> And Northern Ireland, which is different than Ireland. >> Ireland. There's two different Ireland. My grandparents >> Ireland >> came over on the boat from uh Scotland. >> From Scotland. >> Yeah, I looked them up on Ellis Island. It's really cool. You can look them up and you have and they have to have like a person they're going to see here, a sponsor, and it tells you where they're going to live. They're going on Malbury Street in Newark. >> Look at that. Nice stuff. >> Um Oh, we've got one more and then we got to do our goodbyes here. We've got uh Buck's Basement. Charlie Kirk's murderer was basically a 4chan edge lord and loyal follower of Nick Fuentes whom was in an online war. It was altight versus alt-right. I I've you're speaking um a language I don't quite understand. I know 4chan is a thing. I know it's a big thing, but I don't know what that I don't understand it. Nick Fuentes, I've heard the name. um not very familiar with his online war. Alt-right versus alt-right. Um possible, not possible, I don't know. But we appreciate um you chiming in there, Bucks. And and and if and if it is something like that, um that could play into the defense if they feel like he was being, you know, subsumed into a world and had some break from uh reality. That'll clearly be part of his defense. Thanks so much. All right, Al, where can people find you? >> Okay. Well, first of all, the phone call that I took, that's why I had to sub up. So, my plans tonight to have dinner with Rob Reiner have been cancelled. Rob is not feeling well. >> Where's Meathead going? >> I He's He's not feeling well. So, >> you were having dinner with Rob Reiner and you didn't invite me. >> No, I'm sorry. I could not invite you. I apologize. >> Is Gloria gonna be there? >> Gloria's not going to be there. >> They got divorced. >> Oh, jeez. I'll be there, you know. So, uh Archie will be there and no, no one's going to be there tonight. So that's off. So I have an open night tonight. Tomorrow, Savannah Bananas playing at Yankee Stadium. >> Oh wow. >> Sunday I've got um the uh wonderful Jets playing the Buffalo Bills. And Monday I've got closing arguments with Vidy Palitan 8 to9 and uh Aivista Los Angeles. >> Al, where can folks find the radio legend? I mean Jonesy. Al, where can they find the radio legend? They can find him right below me. Right down there. See? >> Hey, what are you talking about? Um, glenjones.net. Glenn with one end. That's where you can find all of my AM's, FMs, and streams and archives. >> Just remember, it's Glenn Jones one end because his his mom was so poor she couldn't afford the second N. >> Kind of like Sheldon on the odd couple because he didn't didn't have an O. >> That's right. Sheldon didn't have an >> Sheldon with no O. >> Yeah. played by Rob Riner. >> Rob Ryder. That's right. >> Oh my god. >> On the odd couple >> with MNA Turner. MNA. Vera and learn. It was MNA Vera and um MNA. >> You know, we were so serious today >> and Wner Turner. It was the three that was the uh the family. It was MNA, Vera, and Ver Werna. >> Vera. We were so serious today that when you described him as a lone wolf, I had to stop every power within me. I had to stop from bringing up Lever and Squirrel. Uh Shirley was the lone wolf. >> Yeah, >> that's right. >> That's right. All right, folks. Um you can find me Monday through Friday on Court TV, 8:00 p.m. to 10 p.m. Eastern. Two hours of live true crime. Only guy in the business doing it night in and night out, day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year. Al will be with me on Monday. Um, tonight we're going to be talking obviously about this. We've got someone who was there and a witness to to all of this and obviously we'll break down every other development that we are learning. Um 9:00 tonight, interesting case. Cody Thomas, Cody will be on the case down in Central Florida in a case involving um allegations of cop on cop um violence. It was a love triangle. Um, but we were going to get some details on that. He'll be with Mara, famous attorney. We've got one more here. This is James Alaskan Jim. Love you boys. Oh boy. I'll bring my shoes and glasses so I have them. Haha. Let's continue. Open hearts versus us. Great show. You help me smile. Sadly us. Thank you so much, James C. Alaskan Jim. Appreciate it so much. All right, that's it. Uh, we are done for now. I have to run. But say good night, Jonesy. >> Wait, we got to do that one more time. >> Take two. >> Take two. Say good night, Jonesy. >> Good night, everyone. Good night. Thank you for all your support. We are the engine crime podcast. Somebody say tangent tent. Somebody say podcast. Podcast. This is a tangent podcast. Good night everyone. Good night. Thank you for all your support. We are the tangent true crime podcast. We'll Somebody say tangent. Tent. Somebody say podcast. Podcast. [Music]