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Court Proceeding — SHOCKING Evidence Hidden in Charlie Kirk's Killing — Preliminary Hearing
Court proceeding — State of Utah v. Tyler James Robinson (Case 251403576, 4th Judicial Dist. Ct., Utah County). Transcript is the YouTube auto-caption track of the Court TV feed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHOMNhVENdg) — verbatim ASR, not a certified court transcript.
Fast forward to about about 12:20 or so. So, a little bit after noon, the noon hour. Uh, what happened? What did you see? What did you hear? I heard an individual talking to Charlie and I happened to kind of glance over the edge of the railing about that time. Um, I could see the right side of Charlie's shoulder. So, not his whole body because I had the he was underneath the tent. So, I could only see probably the right side of his body. Um, he was answering a question. kid asked him a question and then I heard a shot fired. >> Do you know what time that was? >> Uh, yes. >> What time was that? >> 12:23. >> What did you see >> at that moment? I saw him lean to the left. So I >> When you say him, you >> Charlie. >> Charlie. So I saw him go to the left because I could no longer see the right side of his body. So he went further underneath the tent to the north side of the tent. So left. >> Okay. Um, can you describe the reaction of others that were there? >> Uh, yeah. So then, um, everybody started getting up and starting to run, uh, in more of a chaos kind of situation. >> Before you continue, can you describe a little bit? So, you mentioned Mr. Kirk was answering questions, talking to individuals. >> Yes. >> Were there others present? >> Yes. >> Um, any idea about approximately how many? >> How would you describe it in your terms? In my terms, I'd say when I was up there looking down, I'd say there's several thousand people because you had it on the grass that was jam-packed in the amphitheater sitting on the grass. You had people standing on the back up along the cement. You had people that were on the second level, the Saenson, and over by the Woodbury building. There's another level there where a lot of people were standing and watching. So, it was it was pretty packed. Several thousand people. >> You mentioned So, you mentioned you heard something. What did you hear again? >> I heard a gunshot. >> Okay. And can you describe the re you described Mr. Kirk's reaction? Was that simultaneous to hearing the the gunshot? >> Yes, it was. >> When he fell to the left? >> Yes. >> Did you see the reaction from the crowd? >> Yes. >> What was that? >> Everybody kind of got up. They all said a lot of people were screaming, standing up, and starting to run in all different directions away from the center of the tent. >> Okay. You're a police officer >> helping to secure the area, correct? >> Yes. >> What did you do? Um, at that moment I recognized it as gunfire. I uh I left my post which was right there on the south end of the hall flags. I went I proceeded to between right where the fugal and the hall flags meet. There's some outside stairs that I was starting to run down. As I was trying to get down to the bottom of the stairs, people are running up. People are laying down on the steps. I'm trying to jump over people to get to the bottom of the stairs so I can help uh stop an individual that's probably shooting. >> Um, what happened next? Um, by the time I got to the bottom of the stairs, we I was informed on the radio that we had a shooter in custody. So, I thought at that moment I was like, "Oh, that was kind of fast." Obviously, it was close range probably because we had an individual in custody. Another officer came on, said we had an individual in custody. So, I decided to since this since the threat is gone now, I can assess for anybody that's injured and start looking for any medical needs that that's needed at that moment. Um, I started canvasing the area. Um, as I canvased the area, I was looking for anybody that was injured. I saw a kid on the ground that was on the about the second or third tier of the in the grass next to a wheelchair and he was uh almost convulsing. I thought he'd maybe been shot. Uh, talked to the dad as I was running over there. He said that he was just having a seizure that he was fine. He was not injured. So then at that moment I I I observed that there was no other injuries that I could see at that moment. >> Okay. Did did was your attention drawn to anything else at that time? >> Yeah. So after we got some people kind of cleared away a little bit, I thought I needed to start preserving the scene because we had a crime scene and with some of my experience and training and to that effect of I decided now we need to contain the scene and help preserve as much evidence as we can. So I started pushing people off the grass um out of the courtyard area because I knew that's where the crime scene was. Um, soon as we started pushing those guys out, I uh my my chief, Chief Long, that was right next to me. I looked down and saw an empty pistol holder that was sitting just on top of the grass. And at that moment, things had died down just a split second. I realized that the shot I heard was more of a rifle shot and not a pistol shot. >> And um what causes you to say that? Uh just from being around firearms through all my trainings, um the difference is, you know, a handgun is more of a short bang pop sound. Uh with a rifle, you have a more of a longer violent bang or crackle sound. It's more of a violent kind of sound. It's longer. So that's why I recognized it. >> Okay. Is a is a rifle sound louder typically? Yes. >> Okay. Um, going back to when you heard this this gunshot, could you tell uh where where it came from? >> Direction? >> Yes, I knew it came to the from the east of me. >> The east of you. Okay. So, you see this this realization comes to your mind. What did you do next? >> Um, at that moment when I saw the the holster, the empty holster, I turned to my chief and I said, "That was that was a rifle shot." And he said, "I agree." And I looked up at that moment uh right in the line of sight I could see the Losi building had a direct line of sight. So I proceeded to go look at that and see what was going on up there. >> Okay. Can you just briefly describe your route to the Losi center? >> So from the courtyard you can go into the Sorenson Center and like I said there earlier there was on level one there's some elevators or there stairs. I ran up four flights of stairs. uh got to the fourth level of the Losi building and proceeded to the south of the Losi building. There's some stairs which is at uh breezeway between the computer science building and the Losi building. There's some stairs that go up to the top of that and so I went to the top of that. >> Is that the stairway that you previously described? >> Yes, on the outside of the Losi building just >> Okay. That it's an and it's a public stairway. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um did you make it to the rooftop? >> I did. Do you know about what time you got there? >> Um, I pro I got up there at 12:44. >> Okay. Um, what did you do when you got on top? >> Uh, when I got on top, I hopped over the guardrail. Um, I noticed that there was a an object which was sitting right about 10 or 15 feet in from the other side of the guardrail in the gravel. That looked out of place to me. And in relationship to where you hopped over the guardrail, what direction was that object? >> Uh to the west of the guardrail. >> Okay. And um did you recognize the object? >> I did. >> And what was it? >> It was a red and black screwdriver. >> Okay. Um did you touch that object? >> I did not. >> Okay. I am going to refer the witness on your screen, officer Bagley, to states exhibit 3.1. >> Yes, I see it. >> Do you recognize what that is? >> I do. >> And what is that? >> That's a picture of the screwdriver that I saw that day on top of the rooftop of the Losi building. >> Okay. And that's how it appeared on the roof that day? >> Yes. Is that a fair and accurate portrayal of the screwdriver you observed and found that day? >> Yes. >> On the state offers states exhibit 3.1. >> Miss Nester, your honor, we renew, excuse me, we renew our standing objection and object on the grounds that there's no foundation laid as to when the photo was taken or by whom. Thank you. >> Same response, judge. My previous arguments. And did you state that this was a fair and accurate representation as of September 10th, 2025? >> I had said that day. I'll ask it again. >> All right. >> To the officer. Officer Baggley. Um, you were you saw this screwdriver you're describing on September 10th, 2025. Is that correct? >> Yes. >> Is states exhibit 3.1 a fair and accurate uh depiction of that screwdriver that day, September 10th, 2025? >> Yes. >> All right. And I want to go through with you your timeline. Um, you mentioned that you you started at the Hall of Flags, right? And then you came down. It took you a minute to kind of navigate the stairs with the crowd and the chaos and everything. And then you were in the grassy area of the courtyard for a bit. Is that right? >> Yes. So about 30 seconds to get down the stairs and then I went right down to where the tent was. And that's where you found the holster. >> No, the holster was up higher. So I went down by the tent. So it's lower level. So as I came down towards where Charlie Kirk was shot, I went down towards the tent to assess to see what was going on down there because I I didn't know exactly what I heard the gunshot. Didn't know exactly what was going on. >> I'm sorry. I missed that you went down to the tent. So let me ask you about that. So what did you do when you got down to the tent? >> Uh when I got down to the tent, Charlie was gone. I put him in an SUV and left. Um, at that moment there were still some people running around. So, I decided to preserve the scene as much as I could with trying to escort people out and that's why I went back in and started pushing people off the grass area to conserve any ammunition or any casings or anything to that effect that would be around. I wanted to make sure people were off and there was as much evidence preserved as possible. >> So, just to be clear, by the time you got to the tent, Mr. Kirk had already been removed and taken from the scene. Is that right? Yes. >> Okay. Um, so in your professional opinion, what was what was the perimeter of the crime scene? >> What do you mean by the parameter? So >> the perimeter like how far did this crime scene stretch? Like where did you want people to move off of? >> Oh, well, at first I wanted them all off the grass because like I said is I thought we had a suspect in custody. So to me it would be a close encounter. So, I was trying to push everybody off the grass in case there were shell casings or to that effect that it got on the grass. So, after I pushed them off to that part, um, and getting up to the top where I saw that empty holster, when I saw that empty holster is when it things started slowing down for me a little bit, all the chaos and stuff is that's when I realized that it was a rifle shot, not a handgun shot. >> Okay. And that's when you saw the Low C building and it occurred. Do you should go check it out? >> Yes, it was right in my line of sight. And correct me if I'm wrong, but um you the whole time that this is going on, you had an active body camera on your I guess your collar. Is that right? >> I was right here on my chest. Yes. >> Okay. And it was on? >> Yes. >> Um and it appears to me from reviewing your body camera that there was another individual who was with you that went to the Losi building who was in civilian clothing but appeared to have a gun. Who was that? I I don't know who he was exactly. He He had a badge on and I need somebody with me to back me up as I ran up the stairs to make sure I had somebody with me. >> So, you don't know what agency he's from or where he's from? >> No. >> And he it looked like he had a pistol. >> Yes. >> Is that right? >> A handgun. Yes. >> A handgun. >> Yeah. >> Um and so the two of you go to the Losi building. >> Yes. Did when you reviewed the videotape at the police department later, did you check to see if anyone had been on the Los building after the shooting after this individual had jumped off that you've already talked about? Was there anybody else on the roof? Did you check and see in that gap of time? >> In that gap of time, no. So, once I put up the barrier, I only walked walked up to about that point. Then I went down and reviewed the video from that moment on. So, were you able to see are you able to say for one way or the other if anyone else had been on that roof in between when the person jumped off the building and when you came on the roof? Are you able to say one way or the other? >> Uh, there was people up there looking for an individual that ran that way because when I first got told the individual ran heading north that we didn't know where the shooter was. So, we started climbing up and looking clearing the building. And it wasn't until I went to the PD and actually saw him jump off of the building that I knew he was off the building. Let me rephrase that because I think I'm I either asked it badly or you misunderstood me. So, let me let me go back again. So, from the time that the individual that you spotted on the video jumped off the roof, right? The individual that you thought was in the prone position. >> Okay. >> Between that and when you got on the roof, did you ever check to see if anybody else had been on the roof in that period of time? >> Yeah. And I didn't see anybody. >> So, you did? >> I didn't notice anybody. >> Yeah. You didn't did you look on the video to see that entire Okay, that's what I'm asking. So, you did not review the video to see if there was someone between you that individual jumping off and you coming on if anybody had been on or disturbed that scene in any way. Okay. But once you put the tape up, you're then we're confident from that point on the scene was preserved, right? >> Um, by the way, where did you get that tape? Uh officers responded on the scene that he was down on the bottom and threw it up to me. So >> Okay. So you didn't have it on you? >> No. >> And you didn't leave the scene to go get it? >> No. >> Someone threw it up? >> Yes. >> Great. While you were on the roof, did you encounter any spent casings? >> As a matter of fact, no. That's why when I I saw the prone position where the where a person would be laying down as a sniper, I being around guns and snipers all the time, I was looking for a spin shell casing. I couldn't see one. I was looking over the edge, looking all over the place, making sure the gravel wasn't disturbed, and I couldn't find a shell casing at that moment. >> And that would be the reason you would be looking for that was because some types of guns when they shoot eject a casing automatically, right? Some do, >> some don't. >> Yes. >> Right. Um, and then you also didn't find any un unshot bullets? >> No. >> Okay. Are you aware of there being a bullet found on another roof? >> I'm not >> vicinity. Were you aware of another bullet being found on the scene, not on the roof of the Losi building? >> No. Do you recall me asking you whether you agreed with this statement that an inconclusive conclusion indicates that the microscopic marks in question may or may not have originated from the same or known source. >> I do remember you asking yes >> and and you agreed that that was a correct definition of what you concluded in this case. Correct. >> Correct. Yes. >> Okay. So I I wanted if I could return to not 10, I'm sorry, your case file again, the 47page document. There we go. What's the tab? six. Okay. In your case file, you have produced for us some nice comparison photos of your comparisons. Correct? >> Yes. >> Okay. is the top photo depicting one test fire on the left and another test fire from the same gun on the Right. >> Yes, it is. >> So, do you see areas of agreement and areas of disagreement in these two bullets fired from the same rifle? >> I see sufficient agreement amongst the striations that are in this land impression. >> Okay. And and tell us where they are. When you draw that conclusion using this subjective theory of identification, what show us what you're looking at? Is it touchscreen? >> Probably. >> No, it's not. No, I'm sorry. >> But we can if you direct us, we can get there with a pointer. >> Sure. So, you can see towards maybe the last third of the bullet or the land impression that Yes. Right where your cursor is below there. That's an area of agreement with that striation. It looks like it's going from the left to the right. So, that mark is appearing on the test fire on the left and the test fire on the right. Then if you look towards the top of that land impression, there's going to be some more lighter colored striations or lines that are moving from left to right. Those areas are in agreement as well. >> Where is that? Not not as far up as where he is. Correct. It's down. >> Uh yes. And I believe the PowerPoint that I provided does have some areas and circles of some of these marks if that would help as well. Um but if you move your cursor up continually up, keep going. There you go. You have a line that was right there and you have several others underneath of it that looks like it's going just straight across from left to right. And that shows an observed area of agreement. >> So that one he's got circled on the right, I see a line there. Are you saying you see a line on the left that it's identical to the one on the right? >> I'm saying I see agreement amongst those striations. Yes. >> Okay. Anything other than those two areas? Um, you can really go down the entirety almost of that line looking at those striations. So, under the top red circle, there's another area there. Yep. If you start right there and you draw your circle over, except at the top of the circle, there's a highlighted line on the left that goes all the way to the right. If you go a little bit farther down, maybe still in the top third of that circle, you can see another line going from one side to the other, another area of agreement as well. And then under the final third circle in a little darker area down there, there's still some lines again in sufficient agreement. >> Okay. And again, these are comparisons between test fires. So you know the rifle that you're test firing fired these these two bullets, right? >> Yes. And the purpose of those test fire is to ensure that the though it was smart, it was fired from the same firearm, you want to make sure that those individual characteristics are reproducing. >> All right. So, go to the photo on the This is the first of several comparisons between the test fire on the left and 6A on the right. Correct? >> Yes. >> And what is the writing on the top mean? Blue index gim. So that will be the first number there is the case number, the laboratory case number. Then next 1.11B is going to refer to the specific test fire that's on the picture. >> And then V versus 6A. So that's the evidence that's on also pictured. >> [ __ ] stands for a groove impression. So I'm looking at a groove impression in this photo. Blue index means I'm specifically looking at the groove impression that I have put a blue indexing mark on so that I know where I am during the comparison process. >> Okay. >> 30X refers to the magnification that the photo was taken at. And then INC refers to inconclusive the final conclusion. >> So I'm interested in the areas of disagreement. Are there areas of disagreement between the the known and the unknown here that you could point us to? So for this photo to me I see areas of agreement in the top >> and then on the way down from the 6A right after you see those two highlighted lines near the top it's there is a lot of damage that is observed and almost no microscopes microscopic marks of value can be observed at all. So again that lends to the lack of quality and quantity of marks even to do a comparison. It's almost like missing data points. >> Okay missing is not the same thing as dissimilar though right? It just means there's nothing there to call agreement or disagreement. >> So, do you see areas of disagreement here or no? >> On the striations that are available to me on this groove impression, I see areas of agreement and specifically talking about those two highlighted lines at the top on the right. Top photo on the next page. Do you see uh areas of disagreement in this photo? >> So, this is the same photograph that we looked at before, just at a different magnification. It's um it's zoomed in a little bit more from 30 to 40x. So, again, I'm looking at those two highlighted lines near the top. And then if you look down, you can almost see that damage a little bit better. And there's none of those striated lines that you see on the test fire which you would expect to see in a land or groove impression on the right at all. So again, no microscopic marks of value to compare whatsoever. And again the question areas of disagreement >> the possibility of an area of disagreement maybe in the middle there on the 6A is a line that does not look like it carries over but just from this snapshot I cannot say if that if I had moved the photo a little bit different or the specimens together that that area would be agreement in this photo. It does not look like it does though. >> Okay. Uh, and could you go to the next photo, please? >> Same question here. Areas of disagreement. >> The way this photo was taken is highlighting more of the lack of microscopic marks of value. If I had pulled the specimen that's on the left, the test fire over, there might be some agreement that could be observed. But the way the photograph is now, you don't see the line on the right going all the way over. But again, this is just a snapshot of one particular area. >> Doesn't show areas of agreement or disagreement. >> There is an area of agreement at the >> Okay. >> Correct. Yes. How about this one? >> This is another zoomed in of the previous photo, focusing in on that bottom area of agreement. So, we went from 30x to 40x and just highlighting one specific area and this is showing you agreement. So again, this area that is highlighted, the bottom portion that's in focus is showing an area of agreement. As you go up, the lines are a little bit blurred on the 6A bullet jacket fragment. So, it's hard to say if that area was in agreement or disagreement. That's not what my photo was focusing on. So again, this is going to show you part of the groove impression at the white index on the top. You can see some strided lines or excuse me more of the middle of the photo, the top of the groove impression from the 6A. You see some lines do not appear to be on the right side either, but this photo is also trying to show the lack of microscopic marks at all towards the bottom of that groove impression. >> Okay. But there are in these photos areas of disagreement as well as areas of agreement. Correct. in the the photo that we just looked at. It could be possible areas of disagreement. Again, it's just one area that I'm looking at. It's hard to tell when you can't look at the entirety of the land in this moment. >> Now, this you can take that down, please. Do you keep up with uh the literature relevant scientific literature relevant to your field? >> I do. Yes. And are you aware of certain criticisms that have been leveled against this AFT theory of identification? >> I have heard Yes, I've heard recommendations on how to improve the afty theory of identification. Yes. >> Well, the criticism have gone beyond that, right? >> Specifically, what are you referring to? Well, you you you know you're aware that the National Resource, you know, the National Resource Council, >> the National Academy of Science, >> National Academy of Science? >> Yes. >> Is that a pretty preeminent uh scientific organization in this country? >> Yes. Did they conclude in 2009 that quote a fundamental problem with toolmark and firearm analysis is the lack of a precisely defined process. As noted above, Afty has adopted a theory of identification, but it does not provide a specific protocol. It says that an examiner may offer an opinion that a specific tool or firearm was the source of a specific set of tool marks or a bullet striation pattern when quote sufficient agreement exists in the pattern of two sets of marks. It defines agreement as significant when it exceeds the best agreement demonstrated between tool marks known to have been produced by different tools and is consistent with the agreement demonstrated by tool marks known as known to been produced by the same tool. a meaning of exceeds the best agreement and consistent with or not specified and the examiner is expected to draw on his or her own experience. This afty document which is the best guidance available for the field of tool mark identification does not even consider let alone address questions regarding variability, reliability, repeatability or the number of correlations needed to achieve a given degree of confidence. >> I do objection. >> We're now firmly into 702 territory. I object on grounds of relevance to the probable cause hearing and beyond the scope of the PC hearing as I previously objected. >> I think it goes directly to reliability that a group a scientific group studied this exact process that she used in this case and reach that conclusion >> if you would. So again I I I'm trying to keep us on the probable cause standard. This is going a bit deep in regards to it. Uh this is citing to 2009 and so we're in 2026. And again, I'm I'm not I don't want to have to dive deep into areas trying to determine because I I feel that we are exiting the the orbit of probable cause. if if I'm having to make that analysis and and trying to see like how is this relevant, how does this apply, how does this go to probable cause. Um so if you wish to ask this question and then move on, we certainly could do that. But I >> sure the only thing I wanted to do was establish that this was the foundation criticism in 2009. And I know when we had raised this issue with respect to one of the other experts, the comeback was oh well this was in 2009 and the PCAST report was in 2016. In this particular field these criticisms have have started in 2009 but they have continued up to the present day and have gotten more striden. So I think that's the take-home here is that this is not some past criticism that has been set aside. This is a criticism that this expert is aware of and that has continued in the literature up to the present time. >> But I don't have that second portion of what you just said in front of me. So I can't I can't I can't agree with you because what I have is what's before me. I can't I can't go searching myself as a magistrate for probable cause. I have to take what you say as it is and and and if I have to start searching, I've left the universe of probable cause. >> I agree. And I was I was offering that to the court as a profer in terms of where this line of questioning is going so the court can understand the context. Okay. It isn't just an isolated criticism and I'll establish with a couple of questions that it's continued up to the present time. >> So I will overrule the objection, but I will limit you to this question. we're going to more and more and more. Doesn't I see your point. You're you're you're looking at whether this science is challenged or not. The point's been received, but anything further goes outside of probable cause. So, we have to get back on the path. >> Got it. >> Thank you, Mr. Burke. >> You're aware of that criticism, right? >> Yes, I am. >> And you're also aware of the criticism leveled in 2016. Council, I just said that we're we're focused solely on I've accepted what you've said, but I said it's limited to this question and then we're moving on because anything further is going outside of probable cause. >> I misunderstood. I'm apologize to the court. >> I apologize if I wasn't clear on that. So maybe it was my error not communicating. I've accepted that coming in. I've overruled the objection, but I said we're going to we're going to leave that where it is and then move forward. And and that's where I'm unclear when the court says move forward. No more questions about any further criticisms beyond that one >> on this on this line of question. That's correct because >> thank you Mr. B >> and I I think I've made the profer in terms of the relevancy of >> and I accept that. So thank you Mr. B. >> All right. Then the last area is um in the years that you've been doing this testing, is it true that you've only taken one proficiency test that involves bullet comparisons? >> Yes, I've only had the opportunity to take one bullet proficiency test so far. >> And is it true that that was in uh 2023? I don't remember the exact year, but that sounds correct. Yes. >> Right. And is it true that that proficiency tests involved a test where you had question bullets and then you had two sets of bullets. one that was fired from one gun, not the suspect gun, and then a second gun that that was fired from another gun. >> I don't remember the exact final ground truth answers that were there. No, I I'm sorry. I don't remember. >> I think when you and I talked about this, you said you were aware of a controversy about that particular test. Correct. >> I was aware, yes, of the results of the proficiency test. Yes. >> That the that there was a very high error rate in that um particular proficiency test. Right. >> There was a higher error rate. Yes. However, my answers were satisfactory along with the five other examiners at my specific laboratory that took it as well. >> Yeah. Your conclusion in that case was as in this case that it was inconclusive. Correct. >> Correct. Even though the uh correct answer was that the bullets did not come from the question, the two did not match. The known in the question should have been an elimination. >> The ground truth answer was yes, they were excluded. However, an inconclusive result in this comparison was extremely appropriate. The lack of quality and quantity of those individual characteristics never reached sufficient agreement, nor did it ever reach sufficient disagreement. So saying anything but inconclusive was not appropriate. >> I see. And can you have bullets fired from different weapons that can have uh individual characteristics that look pretty similar? >> There is occasions, yes, that tool marks that are made by two separate tools are similar. Yes. Could you go? Um, this is my last area. Question n uh exhibit 19 >> Your honor, I'm requesting 20 minutes for crossexamination. Uh, we're coming up on 437. >> That would be my request. Your honor, >> this my last question. I'm sorry. >> All right, Mr. Burton. Thank you, Mr. McBride. I appreciate the the heads up. >> In your opinion, does this uh the one on the left and the right show matching individual characteristics? >> because I I see it displayed. I I just want to make sure is this all >> it has not been admitted and I'm asking this question and I as a foundation for admitting it. >> Okay, that's fine. So, I just want it was on another screen. I wanted clarification. So it's not on any screens because it hasn't been admitted but clearly it can be on her screen. >> So only to the witness and council table >> page Does this compare comparison show individual characteristics indicating that it was fired from the same weapon? >> There are individual characteristics present, but without examining it in person, I don't feel comfortable making a conclusion. 27. Again, I see individual characteristics. On a very first glance, I can see maybe one striation that is in agreement, but without seeing it physically in person and having an accurate represent representation of the entirety, I can't conclude in any answer. And the last Exhibit >> Same question. >> I do see individual characteristics. I do see some areas of agreement with without looking at it further. I wouldn't make a conclusion. It's a holistic approach when you're examining items. Yes. >> Would it surprise you if I told you that all three of those were fired from different weapons? >> Again, I don't know any context to these photos other than what you showed, so I don't feel comfortable saying one way or another. >> Thank you. >> Let's jump to September 10th. Um, did he spend spend the night in the apartment the night of September 9th into September 10th? >> September 10th. >> Yeah, he did. >> Yes. Do you know when he left the apartment on September 10th? >> Um, I don't know an exact time. I just know he left early. Uh, I heard him leaving and he just said he had a like a long drive to work that day, so he was leaving early. >> Yeah. So early. Um, any guess as to what um when that was? >> Uh, I don't know. I would have thought it was 5:00 a.m. because that's when like an early work day was for him, but it was probably more like 4. >> Okay. Have him sp his gum just to make sure that >> I can do that. >> Right in front of your laptop. >> There you go. So, what time did you get up on September 10th? >> Probably like 12 to 100 p.m. >> You didn't have to work that day? >> Uh, no. >> And did you hear from Tyler? Did he call or text you before then? >> Uh, no. He sent that message in the group chat I mentioned, but he didn't message me directly at all that day. >> Okay. When did you first hear from him? On September 10th. It was at 11:00 with that like automated message. >> Okay. 11 p.m. >> Yeah. What about he asks you here remember how I was engraving bullets? Was he engraving bullets before this? >> Uh yeah, I don't remember exactly when, but uh he had said he was planning to go hunting with his family. Um, and he asked me for a if we had like a Dremel to because he said he wanted to create messages on bullets. Um, and I just told him where Dremel was and I told him to make sure he doesn't like set off a bullet on accident in the house. Um, but I didn't really think about it until then. >> How long before um September 10th was this that you he asked about the Dremel? I I don't remember cuz he'd been talking about the uh hunting camping trip for a couple months, but I I don't remember when he was specifically asking to engrave the bullets. So >> So are we talking like a year before? >> Oh, no. Not not that not that long. It would have been I'd say at most a month before this was when he was asking. Okay. All right. Um, you talked about the note that he left. Um, I want to bring this up and I should say that, um, the these text messages that we've been looking at here are, um, bates number 54. Okay. Uh, the notes have been titled 16.3 with a note and this is base number 58. Do you recognize that that on the screen there? >> Yeah. Yeah. What do you recognize it as? >> Um, that was the note under his keyboard that he was referring to in the first text of that chain. >> So, where did you find this? un on his desk underneath his like uh computer keyboard. >> And uh what I assume you read it. >> Yeah. >> And then what did you do with it after you read it? >> Um I believe I just put it back down on the desk after I took a picture of it. >> Okay. And again, the time you read it was probably around 11:00 or so on the 10th. >> Yes. >> The night of September 10th. >> Mhm. >> Right. And did you ever see that again after you placed it back on his desk? >> Uh, no, I don't think I did. >> And that was a desk in his bedroom? >> Yes. >> And that's a separate bedroom than your bedroom. >> Yep. >> I now want to go to uh what's been titled 16.2. two and do you recognize >> Um, yeah, that was the server like his friend that I was mentioning. >> Okay. And this is your phone again? >> Uh, yeah. >> And I'm assuming you recognize it because the big crack up at the top. Mhm. >> And so this is a server. Is this Discord? >> Yeah, this is Discord. >> And who who are members of this server? I don't want names. Just generally who are these people members of this? >> This is his friend group. Um they play D and D together every week. >> Okay. And I just want to scroll through this to make sure that uh get a chance to take a look at it. Go to the next page. Yes. >> So Tyler I come. Who's that? >> That's Tyler Robinson. >> These other people are just others that are that are members of the server. >> Yes. >> Jug Barnaby Marina DM. >> Mhm. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Like DM means dungeon master. So this is uh these are like most of them are names they're using in the in the >> Yeah. It looks like the last text from Tyler looks like it's um 8:00 p.m. And do you know what day this would have been 8:00 p.m. on the 10th or the 11th? Uh, I would think that would be the 11th cuz on at least I think so because I don't think on the 10th that he messaged anyone before me at like 11. So, >> and he turned himself in on the 11th, right? >> Again, we're just going to go through this so that we have a record of the messages. Is that an accurate recording of that thread? >> Uh, to my knowledge, yes. >> And that was sent looks like between September 10th and September 12th. Looks like the last day on this is September 12th screen. All right. So again, those messages covered from September 10th to the evening of September 11th. Now, September um 11th, what time did or did you see Tyler on September 11th? >> Uh yes. >> When did you first see him? On September 11th. So this is the day after the shoot. >> Yeah, I saw him when I woke up. Um like I said, he was like up and around doing a lot of stuff around the house. Um, and then I uh I think I saw him after that message where I said I'll come home and say I'm doing laundry cuz I didn't want him going to my parents house right then when he said there was probably cops outside. So I went back home and it was just him there and I said bye to him and then he drove off. So, I just went back to my parents house. So, he acted erratically. Um, was he pacing? He just sitting down, relaxing. >> No, he was he was uh walking around a lot. >> And that's within the home. >> Mhm. >> Um, and did he talk about what he had done? >> Uh, didn't go into detail. He just I just asked him in person if what he said was true the night before and he said it was. I started crying a little bit and said he wishes he hadn't done it and then kept going around and just doing stuff I think to keep himself busy or distracted or something. Okay. >> Could you talk about what he was going to do next? Uh, and then eventually said that he would talk to his parents or turn himself over. >> Okay. And uh, when you left, was that how you went you left understanding that he was going to turn himself in or go to his parents house? >> Yeah. And I didn't really want to be at our apartment while any of that was happening, regardless of what went down. Agent Hull, before we actually watch uh states exhibit 12.4, I have just a few questions. Yesterday, you testified at the very beginning of your investigation that you focused on the video that captured the shooter on the top of the Losi building. Is that correct? >> Yes. I believe you also testified that you began by working your way and and this is what I remember you saying, so correct me if I'm wrong, but you in essence testified that you began with that video and you started working your way backward and forward with the UVU surveillance video in an effort to trace the shooter steps on campus. Is that right? >> Correct. >> Okay. Would you mind explaining just in a little bit more detail what you meant by that tracking forward and backward on that video? Yeah, we had a we had a known um when the shooting occurred and and as the officer testified, there was a video of an individual on the roof at the time of the shooting. And so the philosophy that we applied was to take what we knew and then work that forward through the timeline and backwards through the timeline to try and establish um where the individual had gone from the rooftop or how the individual had come to be on the rooftop. >> And and did that, for lack of a better term, did that bear fruit? It did. you actually see from at least in part where he came from and where that shooter went. >> Yes. More so where he came from. It was very limited after the fact. >> Okay. You you testified yesterday that uh uh in reference I believed what's Mark Stakes exhibit 21 um that you believe Mr. Robinson visited campus at least four times on the 10th and the 11th. >> Correct. >> And I think you re reaffirmed that today. Did you do the did you do the same attempt that is to track Mr. Robinson through UVU surveillance video during each of those four visits? >> Yes. >> Or those other three visits, I guess. >> Yes. On each occasion, we attempted to follow the movements of of the individual throughout campus. >> And did you did you in fact see Mr. Robinson on campus in surveillance video that is not included in states exhibit 12.4? >> Uh yes, there is additional footage of him on campus. Yes. >> Okay. I'm going to have displayed on your monitor. What you're going to see is is a a paused or a still image. And I'm going to ask if you recognize uh what you see that now. Agent Hall, >> I do. Yes. >> Okay. Do do you recognize what's displayed on your monitor? >> Yes. It's footage from uh the university that was provided to us, particularly of the parking structure. >> Does it appear to be states exhibit 12.4? >> It does. Yes. >> So, I'm going to go ahead and uh I'm going to have this video run and then if you don't mind, as it's running, I'm probably going to be asking you some questions. And so, uh this video has no audio. Is that right? >> Uh no, there's no audio on the cameras. >> Okay. Um let's go ahead and start the video. It's just not up on the screen yet. >> Let's go ahead and put it on all screens. >> No, I appreciate >> it is uh so it is admitted and uh may be published to the screens and uh just want to make sure it's on your screen agent. All right. All right. Uh Mr. Sturgil, I'll you may proceed. >> Appreciate that, Judge. Thank you. Go ahead. >> Okay. What are we seeing here, Agent Hall? Uh, that's the vehicle is believed to belong to Mr. Robinson arriving in the parking garage on campus. >> At what time in the morning? Is what what time of the day? >> Uh, it's approximately 8:30 in the morning on September 10th, 2025. >> And And what leads you to believe that this particular vehicle belongs to Mr. Robinson? >> Uh, information uh that was provided um regards to driver's license and Department of Motor Vehicle records. The vehicle fits the description of a vehicle owned by Mr. Robinson, >> is is there anything unique about that vehicle that stands out to you? >> Uh the the shape of the vehicle is is very distinct, but predominantly the wheels were very distinctive on this uh version of the vehicle. >> Now, what do we see? >> Uh the driver of the vehicle exits the vehicle and then uh walks on foot to exit the parking garage. It's the individual in the the red t-shirt and the shorts and the shoes. And do you believe you recognize who that person is? >> Yes. >> Who is that? I >> believe that's Tyler Robinson. >> Right. Where does he go from there? >> Uh he heads out of the parking garage on foot uh into the campus um and actually goes to the quad area of the campus. At that time he makes contact with uh some representatives from TPUSA. by quad area. >> Sorry, the the amphitheater is is what I've previously referred it to. >> All right. So, he goes up on campus, visits the the amphitheater area, the courtyard or quad. >> Correct. >> Um and and then what do we see here now? >> He returns on foot back to the same vehicle. >> And what time is he returning back to And where is this parking structure located on campus? >> Uh it's it's just off of campus drive. Um it's a short walk from the from the amphitheater. >> What do we see now? >> That's the vehicle exiting with Mr. Now, what do we see? >> This is Mr. Robinson returning to the campus on foot from um the neighborhood to the northeast. You can see he's wearing the same clothing as in the previous video, and he's carrying a blue backpack. >> Describe the clothing. Uh, it's a maroon color t-shirt uh with uh gray or olive >> And what time did he return to campus? >> Uh, just after 10:00 a.m. >> And does he leave the parking structure eventually? >> Uh, he does. Yes. >> Okay. And during this visit, do you know where he goes after he leaves the the parking structure? >> Yes, we we're able to track his movements on campus. went to Chick-fil-A um in the Sorenson building. >> Mhm. >> And purchased some food, sat and ate the food. Then >> I'm sorry. >> Where did he purchase the food from? >> Chick-fil-A in the Sorenson Center. >> And And where is that in relation to the the amphitheater or the the courtyard? >> Uh it's it's kind of on the northeast side of the amphitheater. It would be um on the on the upper back edge of the amphitheater, furthest away from where the tent was that Mr. Ko was in. >> And from there, where does he go? >> Uh from there, he moves across campus uh out across campus drive uh into a wooded area on what would be kind of the northeast side of Campus Drive. Um then returns back onto campus. Um, we noticed at this point that he's no longer carrying the backpack that he was originally wearing. Uh, he moves through the Gunther building and the computer science building >> and then >> I'm sorry. >> And then goes where? >> Then goes across the to the the railing that gives access to the roof of the Losi building. From there >> uh from there he comes uh back down the stairs and uh walks off campus from that point. >> And and about what time was that that he left campus that that second time? Do you know? >> Uh I believe it was approximately 11:00 a.m. or just after if I recall. I could verify from my notes if you need an exact time. That'll help you remember. Refer to it. Don't read it out loud. Let me know when you've had a chance to >> Were you able to uh refresh your memory as far as the time? >> I was. Yes. >> And what what time was it? was just prior to 11:00 a.m. when he walked off campus. >> Okay. And before we go any further, the the parking structure that that he left initially, where is that parking structure in relation to the LDS Institute building? >> I'm sorry, in relation to >> Um I think it would be just to the north of the LDS Institute building if I recall. >> Do you recall whether it was adjacent to the LDS Institute? >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. All right. Um, what what do we what do we see displayed here now? Go ahead. >> Uh, this is a video of Mr. Robinson returning back to campus the same way that he did previously on foot. And why? Uh, well, let me ask you this. You believe this is Mr. Robinson returning to campus? >> I do. Yes. >> Okay. And and why do you believe it's Mr. Robinson. >> Uh, the shoes are the same and um the images that we have are from from my viewing and and seeing Mr. Robinson on the video, it's the same person. >> Uh, he's noticeably wearing different clothing. >> He is wearing different clothing and he also is walking with a gate or a limp in this video. >> With a gate or what? Now, what do we see? This is Mr. Robinson coming up the stairs of the again. He seems to be having issues walking. >> And again, were we able to track So, were we able to track Mr. Robinson uh when he leaves this parking structure? >> Yes, we were able to. >> Okay. So, when he leaves the parking structure, where where does he go? >> Uh, he he comes up around Campus Drive, as you can see on the video here, there is a there's a cut through there north of the Losi building, and that's Mr. Robinson coming up the sidewalk. Uh, he has the noticeable gate or limp in his walk. Um, and then he moves south across the front of the Losi building >> on the sidewalk. He would be the rear of the two individuals in this particular video. >> So, so right now, if we were to break this picture into quadrants, where where he where would he be? >> Uh, he'd be in the top left quadrant walking to the left of the image >> now. Now, what do we see? >> Uh, this is an image looking across the parking lot to the Losi building and Mr. Robinson is appearing on the exterior staircase which gives access to the lossy building roof and and the area where the railing was. >> And again, let's break that image into into quadrants. Where where would he be located if you broke it into quadrants? >> It's in the top right. And uh the individual can be seen moving under the notations that are on the video. >> Okay. And and what time is this? Uh >> it's just afternoon about 12:15. >> On what day? >> On December, sorry, December September 10th, 2025. >> What What just happened or what did we just see happen? >> The individual actually kind of rolls over the railing onto the roof of the Losi building. And again in the top left corner, the individual is now seen running across the rooftop of the Losi building to what would be the southwest corner of the building. >> Uh crouching down and then crawling to >> And and this is at what time? >> Um around 12:23. I think the time stamp on the video is 12:22. on the 10th >> on September 10th. Yes. 2024. So, >> we're clear. This is the roof of the Losi building. >> Correct. >> Can you still see that individual? You believe this to be Mr. Robinson? >> I'm sorry. >> You believe this to be Mr. Robinson? >> I do. Yes. >> And how long is he out there on the edge of the building? >> Um, just until the the reported shot was fired at at 1223 and 28. Individual then stands up and then moves across the building to the north. >> Is that what we're seeing happening right now? It is. Yes. They move behind the the atrium area on the rooftop at the northeast corner where the white >> Do you see Mr. Robinson now? >> I do. Yes. He's just arriving at the corner of the building What are we seeing now? >> Mr. Robinson lowering and jumping off of the roof of the Loy Loy building onto the grass area and then moving away He appears to be carrying some kind of So he's approaching >> campus drive >> and again broken into quadrants. Where is he currently? >> and the time >> uh it's 12:24 and 42 on the time stamp. >> What do we see now? >> He then crosses Campus Drive and drops down into the wooded area on the far And that is located in what part of the video? What quadrant? >> Uh it would have been just off center on >> What do we see now? >> Uh this is the intersection of Campus Drive and 800 South. Um there's a vehicle attempting to turn right onto Campus Drive. Um that's the vehicle that's driven by Mr. Robinson. Okay. And on this on the screen, where is that vehicle that you're referring to located? If you broke it into quadrants, >> uh, it's on the left side on the on the >> Now, what do we see? >> That vehicle is now pulling away and >> And And why do you believe that that vehicle is Mr. Robinson's vehicle? Uh when that vehicle was stopped, it actually made contact with an officer who was doing security detail. >> Okay. And do you know who that officer is? >> Officer Goforth. >> Okay. And do you know which department he works for? >> Uh Spanish for police. >> And did you have a conversation with Mr. Go forth regarding uh this interaction at that intersection? >> I did. Yes. >> And and what time was that interaction? I'm sorry. Did I ask you that? >> Uh it was approximately 030 uh 12:30 a.m. >> Uh on the 11th. on September 11th, 2025. >> So, you talked to officer Goforth about that contact on the corner on that or during I guess during the early morning hours of the 11th, >> correct? >> And and what did Officer Go forth tell you about that interaction? Uh it it was an interaction that I guess I guess cop intuition, but there was something about the interaction that made him make a note of for the license plate of the vehicle. And then subsequently um when information was available that that vehicle or a vehicle matching the the description of that was involved in the incident, he ran the information that he had obtained from the stop and was able to identify that it was uh registered to Mr. Robinson and he had in fact had contact with Mr. Robinson on the morning of September 11th, 2025. Was he asked how Tyler Robinson is is saved in his phone like as a contact? >> Yeah, just as Tyler >> uh without saying it obviously. Did he identify Tyler Robinson's phone number? >> Yes, he did. >> Did you check the number that Mr. Twigs gave as Tyler Robinson's phone number against law enforcement records? >> Yes, I did. >> And do they match? >> Yes, they match. is states exhibit 16.1 a fair and accurate representation of the text thread between or the relevant text thread between Mr. Twigs and Mr. Robinson? >> Yes, it is. >> As part of the investigation, was a Celebrite extraction performed on Mr. Twig's phone? >> Yes, it was. >> Did you personally review that extraction? >> Yes, I have. >> And according to that extraction, did Mr. Robinson and Mr. Twigs exchanged text messages on September 10th through 11th, 2025. >> Yes, they did. >> What time was that first text sent? According to the Celebrite extraction, >> uh the first text was September 10th at >> All right, judge. I would move to admit uh states exhibit 16.1 and I and then pursuant to court order, I would I would move to publish it to the monitors. Novak, >> we have no further objections beyond those that the court of courts is very familiar with at this point in time. >> All right. I'll note the standing objections made by defense. Those objections are overruled. This 16.1 is admitted into evidence and may be published to the gallery as well as electronically >> All right, Asian. I want to I'm not going to go through every single message, but I do want to have you read aloud certain portions of them. And I apologize to council that these are not actually given a page number. Um, I have page numbers, but I'm happy to confirm that that we're on the same page as we go. So, here we're looking at page one of states exhibit 16.1. If you could start, if you could read a little more than halfway down where it begins, Wednesday 11 p.m., will you start reading underneath that? >> Yes. Um, so this would have been uh from from Tyler. Says, "Drop what you're doing. Look under your keyboard." >> And I I apologize. Let me stop you there. How do you know that this that message would have been from Tyler Robinson? >> Uh, that's just so any of the messages in gray would be from Tyler and message in blue would be from uh from Lance. It's just way the iPhone distinguishes the messages. And also Lance, Lance in his interview also acknowledges that um who was saying what >> and up at the top who do we see that this thread is is between? >> Uh Tyler. >> All right. Sorry to interrupt you. Uh so so read that again starting from look under the keyboard. >> Uh so so uh after that then Lance responds. He says what? And then he says you're joking, right? And then Tyler says, "I tried to delete that." And if you can continue reading along. >> Okay. Uh, and Tyler says, "I'm still okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orm for a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be long until I can come home, but got to grab my rifle still. To be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age. I am sorry to involve you. And then Lance replies, "You weren't the one who did it, right?" And Tyler says, "I am. I'm sorry." Lance says, "I thought they caught the person." And then Tyler says, "No, they grabbed some crazy old dude and interrogated someone in similar clothing. I had planned to grab my rifle from the drop point shortly after, but most of that side got side of town got locked down. It's quiet almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering. >> Continue reading. >> Uh Lance says, "Why?" And Tyler says, "Why did I do it?" And Lance says, "Yeah." Tyler says, "I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I'm able to gra to grab my rifle, unseen, I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully, they have moved on. I haven't seen anything in the news about them finding it. We'll update you shortly. Or Charlie, we'll update you by midnight. And then Lance says, "All right, stay safe. How long have you been planning this?" >> Scroll down a little bit, please, Kimberly. >> And Tyler replies, "A bit over a week. I believe I can get close to it, but there is a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it." We can scroll down to page four and continue reading. Uh about halfway down. I'll I'll stop you. About halfway down. >> Uh this is while they were spot, but I don't want to chance it. While they were parked there. If they had found it, I imagine there would be more commotion. Again, I'm sorry for roping you into all of this. You shouldn't have to worry about this. And Lance replies, "Does anyone else know?" Tyler says, "Not to my knowledge." All right, I'll stop you there. Uh, let's move to page five. So, this should be page four. So, just scroll down one, please, Kimberly. um, sorry, Kimberly, scroll a bit more down if you could read I don't know about onethird of the way up. That's that starts with guess. >> Okay. Um, Tyler says, "Guess I'm guess I'm just sitting in my car watching reals for another hour hoping this guy off >> and continue." >> And Lance says, "Are you okay still?" And Tyler says, "Yes, check in spot again now. Will," >> That's right. Now we're on page six. Continue reading. >> Uh, we'll update soon. He continues, "The squad car was moved further away enough that I should be able to move in. I backed off because I thought I heard footsteps, maybe a foot patrol, but the crickets here are so loud. Going to see if the if the road closer to campus is open so I can drive past and check out. Probably still closed off though. Getting worried. Hard to know for sure, but I'm not finding my rifle. Could be in the wrong spot. Lance says, "Do you think they found it?" And Tyler says, "Don't know. They haven't published anything." if they have. And then Lance says, "Why did you leave >> Oh, sorry, Kimberly, if you could scroll down >> originally. Also, does it have a serial number? and I'll continue reading. I'll I'll stop you on this page in a little bit. >> Okay. Uh, so Tyler continues, "Uh, IDK, if I had, uh, if it had a serial number, but it wouldn't trace to me, I worry about prints. I had to leave it in a in a bush where I changed outfits. Didn't have the ability or time to bring it with." >> And stop there, please. And then if we And if you could start at the top. >> Okay. So, Lance says, "Was your change of clothes there or was that also gone or did you bring those with you originally? Anyway, you could replace the gun or would he notice?" Then Tyler says, "Only thing I left was the rifle wrapped in a towel. I'll bet that K9 sniffed it out. Uh, little snitching bastard. Replace it. Unlikely. I don't fully know what the gun was cuz it was old as and Gramps did some modifying. There was a four-digit serial serial on it. God only knows who it's registered to. Hopefully some dead guy who gave it to grandpa. And he continues, "Remember how I was engraving bullets? Messages are mostly a big meme. If I see notices uh bulgew on Fox News, I might have a stroke." and then continue. I'll I'll stop you in a moment. >> Says, "All right, I'm gonna have to leave it. That really sucks." >> Let me stop you there. And then if we And do you see the the first blue message we see on page nine? Uh, can you start there? >> Yes. Uh, so Lance says, "Do you need it for hunting?" And Tyler says, "No, my dad wanted to use it to use a high caliber for the rifle hunt. Judging from today, I say Graham's gun does just fine. IDK. I think that was a two a 2K scope." Uh, Lance says, "Geez." And then Tyler says, "OMW home, uh, 3.5 hours." Lance says, "Drive safe." And then Tyler says, "Delete this exchange." >> And I'll stop you right there. And then, sorry, we're on page nine. If we can and then the second grade message on page 15, if you could start there. >> Okay. So, this is Tyler. I'm going to turn myself in willingly. One of my neighbors here is a deputy for the sheriff. We hope to keep things sort of quiet here >> and then I'll stop you there. >> Okay. >> And we can remove the exhibit from the screen. Thank you, Kimberly. >> We mentioned a celebrate extraction of Mr. Twig's phone. Do you know what time that last uh text was sent? >> Yeah, I recall it was just before 8:00 p.m. on uh September 11th. It was I think 7:42 p.m. is my recollection. >> I'm sorry. September 11th. >> Yes. >> make more make sense or you're saying September 11th? >> So September 11th was when he turned