Kretschmar, Dean - Vol. ROUGH

Kretschmar, Dean - Vol. ROUGH February 11, 2011 Page 1 1 ROUGH DRAFT 2 DEPOSITION Of DEAN KRETSCHMAR 3 FEBRUARY 11, 2011 4 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MRS. APRIL: 7 Q. Sir, would you say your full name. 8 A. Dean Russell Kretschmar. Last name is 9 K-r-e-t-s-c-h-m-a-r. 10 Q. Where do you live? 11 A. I live here in Fort Lauderdale. 12 Q. And what's your address; business or home, either? 13 MRS. STREETER: Can we do this off the record? 14 MRS. APRIL: Sure. 15 MRS. STREETER: Go ahead. 16 (WHEREUPON, the answer was provided 17 off-the-record) . 18 BY MRS. APRIL: 19 Q. Did you receive a subpoena to be here today, do you 20 know if you did? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And are you represented by counsel today? 23 A. Yes 24 Q. And is that Mrs. Streeter? 25 A. Yes EFTA01153185 Page 2 1 Q. Mr. Kretschmar, I heard you say before you were 2 sworn in and we went on the record that you hadn't been 3 deposed before. I'm Susan April, we met out in the hallway 4 and I represent a plaintiff in a lawsuit and that plaintiff 5 is named Jeffrey Epstein. And Lilly Sanchez who is with me 6 today is also from Fowler, White, Barnett who represents Mr. 7 Epstein, and you met Mr. King. 8 You will be asked questions by Plaintiff's lawyer 9 and if the Defendant's lawyer wants to ask questions, that's 10 certainly his prerogative. We ask you to let us know if you 11 need something restated or repeated; the court reporter can 12 read things back. If you need to stop, just say you need to 13 stop. You'd like to take a break. 14 As I think you got some tea, if you want anything 15 else or you want to pause to get something, let us know. 16 Okay? 17 A. Do I just say, Can we pause? 18 Q. Yes. You can say, Can we stop. 19 A. Do I raise my hand like we're in school. 20 Q. The only thing I would ask is that if you're in the 21 middle of an answer to a question or if there is a question 22 pending before you break to go to the restroom or anything 23 that you finish that answer so that we're not broke in 24 sequence. 25 A. Understood. EFTA01153186 Page 3 1 Q. One other thing that witnesses sometime forget, 2 lawyers too, is that because everything you say is being 3 typed and the court reporter can only type one person at a 4 time, let the lawyer who is asking you a question finish 5 their complete question, if you're able to determine the 6 question is over, before you answer; because there is a 7 tendency with some people, they think they know the answer so 8 they say it before the question is completed and that makes 9 the typed record confusing. Okay? 10 If you need anything else, let us know. Okay? 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Did you know that there was a lawsuit pending that 13 Jeffrey Epstein had filed against Scott Rothstein and Bradley 14 Edwards and someone named LM prior to being subpoenaed in 15 this case? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Are you currently a party in any lawsuit against 18 Scott Rothstein and others? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I understand you're represented by counsel and I 21 assume that you've been advised that you do not have to 22 disclose anything that was said between you and your lawyers. 23 So if I ask you a question, I'm not asking you to breach that 24 confidence. So I'm trying to ask questions that don't go 25 there, all right? If you have any difficulty with it or you EFTA01153187 Page 4 1 want it restated, please let me know. 2 WHAT'S the nature of the lawsuit that you're 3 currently in? 4 A. The nature of the lawsuit is: We were defrauded on 5 investments in two of Scott Rothstein's law firms for 6 confident settlements. 7 Q. When you say we were defrauded, who do you mean, as 8 best you can describe it? 9 A. Myself, my family, and there were others. 10 Q. And again, in your own words, how were you 11 defrauded? 12 A. We were sold on the fact that the confidential 13 settlements were real cases, they weren't typical court 14 cases. Many of these settlements were confidential in the 15 nature that they were being handled by two attorneys, you 16 know, outside of having to go to court. And based on various 17 reasons and the plaintiffs wanted a settlement for whatever 18 they were wronged on, and those settlements were timed out 19 over time and, basically, we were funding the Plaintiff 20 getting their money then versus waiting for that timed period 21 to end. 22 Q. How did you hear about this investment in the first 23 place? 24 A. Barry Bekkedam. 25 Q. And it's Bekkedam? EFTA01153188 Page 5 1 A. Yeah, Barry Bekkedam. I could give it a crack to 2 start off. 3 Q. Don't worry about spelling anyone's name. I'm 4 happy with phonetics and after we're done, you can clarify. 5 A. His firm is Ballamor Capital Management. 6 Q. And how do you know Barry Bekkedam? 7 A. He is dating, used to be a friend of mine, Diane 8 Barnett. 9 Q. So are you saying you met him sort of through 10 social circles? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. When you say Diane Barnett used to be a friend, is 13 she no longer a friend of yours? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you have a falling-out? 16 A. Yeah, you could say this whole situation has put a 17 bit of a strain on -- 18 Q. Does Diane Barnett live in Florida? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. In Fort Lauderdale? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is she also in the, is she a financial advisor or 23 investment counselor? 24 A. No, she has a real estate license. She worked for 25 the Galleria of Fine Homes I think. EFTA01153189 Page 6 1 Q. So you met Barry through Diane? 2 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . 3 Q. And where did you meet him? 4 A. We met out socially. Diane invited me out to have 5 a drink. She wanted me to meet the gentleman that she was 6 involved with. 7 Q. And is that where you got to talking about the 8 business he was in? 9 A. He wasn't, well, his business in the sense of as a 10 money manager but it wasn't the first meeting that I learned 11 about this. It was several meetings after and he also 12 pitched my stepfather. 13 Q. When you met Barry was it here in Florida? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And do you know what year that was? 16 A. End of '09. 3rd, probably 4th Quarter of '09. 17 Q. And again, I understand you probably won't remember 18 every detail so my questions are directed to as best you can 19 recall. 20 A. Sure. 21 Q. What do you recall Barry telling you about the 22 investment when you first -- when he first spoke to you about 23 it, the investment that led to you being in a lawsuit against 24 Scott Rothstein and others? 25 A. He told me his firm had done a lot of the due EFTA01153190 Page 7 1 diligence, was still in the process of finishing due 2 diligence, but he was working closely with George Levin and 3 George Levin's team in doing the background due diligence and 4 that George Levin personally had 600 million into this 5 investment. And that over the past five years there hasn't 6 been any issues, no late payments, everything has been on 7 time. 8 He disclosed that George had one discrepancy on his 9 background which was a kit car company that George owned and 10 there was something of some of the customers felt defrauded 11 and the cars came out late or something, and there was a 12 court case about it, and it all ended up being settled but 13 that was something of, you know, you could find out through 14 your own research that something negative happened. 15 And I've been in business enough that sometimes 16 things happen, customers are, you know, upset and it can be, 17 you know, twisted. So, through Barry explaining through his 18 due diligence and that his teams had done all of this 19 extensive research and looked at some of the books with 20 Levin's company with the investment. Also, meeting with 21 Scott Rothstein, understanding how the investments are 22 confidential in nature, that there was a third party verifier 23 who was Mike Szafranski, that a hedge fund out of New York 24 had requested when they made their investments years before 25 he was put in charge of being an outside verifier that the EFTA01153191 Page 8 1 funds were in there. That it gave me, you know, some 2 confidence about the investment. 3 Q. Let me back you up a little bit. Do you remember 4 when Barry first told you about this investment before he 5 started talking about due diligence, how did it come up? I 6 mean, were you having dinner, were you at someone's house, 7 where were you? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. Did he just out of know where say I have an 10 investment I want to talk to you about? 11 A. No. I mean, if somebody is a money manager, you 12 know, an investment advisor as he is, in a sense of a 13 balanced -portfolio -type advisor, meaning that he would put 14 your monies in several different low risks to, you know, if 15 you want to do some things that are a little bit more of what 16 would be termed a high risk. I was curious of things that he 17 saw in the market and he was doing middle market financing as 18 as the leverage of banks and so forth were not lending. You 19 know, there's a lot of businesses that just needed cash flow 20 and they couldn't get it from the bank. 21 So it was through conversations that he didn't just 22 bring this one up, he had others that he was, you know, 23 explaining to me. So we, you know, in a sense it was normal 24 that we talked some shop. 25 Q. When he told you about the investment, what did he EFTA01153192 Page 9 1 call the investment? I mean, we've been calling it the 2 investment. Did he say it's the Rothstein investment? 3 A. Banyon Income Fund. 4 Q. Banyon Income Fund. Is that the fund that George 5 Levin was running? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And when he first mentioned it to you, when Barry 8 first mentioned it to you, who else was present? 9 A. Diane Barnett. 10 Q. Anyone else? 11 A. No. 12 Q. So after Barry described this Banyon Income Fund to 13 you, what was the next thing you did, if anything, to invest 14 in it? 15 A. He was pitching my father and I didn't do anything. 16 I was in New York at the time working with a hedge fund, so 17 it wasn't until a little bit later that when my stepfather 18 and I talked and he had, you know, heard about it that I gave 19 it more interest. 20 Q. So you just said your father and your stepfather, 21 is that the same person? 22 A. Yeah, same person. Sorry. 23 Q. What's his name? 24 A. Doug Von Allmen. 25 Q. Do you know how Barry came to know your stepfather? EFTA01153193 Page 10 1 A. Through Diane. Diane introduced Barry to all of 2 Fort Lauderdale. 3 Q. I see. When you say you were in New York working 4 at a hedge fund, was this like your job at the time or were 5 you up there exploring investment? 6 A. It was a job. I was looking to raise capital for a 7 hedge fund, so I was learning from them about their 8 strategies and what they were all about to be able to speak 9 intelligently to people, but the market had crashed. 10 Everybody's strategies were changing every day it seemed. 11 And it was around April of 2010 I said, you know what, 12 it's -- I'm not jumping into the market of investing 13 MRS. STREETER: April 2010? 14 MRS. APRIL: Let's get that timing right. 15 A. When did I make my investment? 16 Q. Let me see if this will -- I've got something with 17 a date on it. 18 Sir, the lawsuit that I referred to that I asked if 19 you were a party in -- 20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . 21 Q. -- do you know if that was filed in November of 22 2009? I do have a copy of some pages. Do you happen to 23 know? 24 A. Off the top of my head per date, no. 25 Q. Well, I'm going to show you what is -- This doesn't EFTA01153194 Page 11 1 show you the file date. 2 MRS. SANCHEZ: That's the amended one. 3 Q. It is a 2210-page document, so I don't have it all 4 in front of me. So let me just show you this and see if it 5 refreshes your memory. 6 Have you ever been a party in a lawsuit before? 7 A. No. 8 Q. I'm going to show you what we call the caption, 9 just the first page that has all the names of the parties of 10 this suit and it goes on to a second page to see if that -- 11 And you can see it has a date stamp. And also you'll see on 12 Page 2 it shows you it's not the original. 13 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . 14 Q. The number of this case is 09-062943 (19). And I 15 don't know if there is any dispute and we have to torture the 16 witness here by asking him to figure it out. 17 MRS. APRIL: Can we all agree that it was filed in 18 2009? 19 MRS. STREETER: Yes. The record will speak for 20 itself. 21 Q. Mr. Kretschmar, you said something earlier and I 22 think you may be off in time and I think your lawyer 23 recognized it. Do you remember if your knowledge of the 24 fraud you mentioned is essentially the same time that it 25 became publicly known that Scott Rothstein's firm had had a EFTA01153195 Page 12 1 crisis and was falling apart? 2 Do you remember hearing about that just from others 3 or in the news that the Rothstein, Rosenfeld & Adler firm was 4 in trouble? 5 A. Right. 6 MR. KING: Objection to form. It's compound. 7 Q. Do you remember when you heard something about the 8 firm? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know about when that was? What time of 11 year? A season or a holiday or something like that? 12 A. Yeah, it was the end of October, like the 31st, 13 going into November. 14 Q. Of what year? 15 A. Had to be 2009. 16 Q. And do you know if you became a party in the 17 lawsuit that I just showed you the caption of? Let's call it 18 for short, the first name is Razorback Funding, LLC. I was 19 going to call it the Razorback suit, if that's okay, versus 20 Scott Rothstein and a number of others? 21 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . 22 Q. Do you know if you became a party in this suit soon 23 after you learned that the Rothstein firm had a problem? 24 A. Yes 25 Q. So I want to go back and ask you if the dates are EFTA01153196 Page 13 1 correct in your previous answer. 2 When you first met Barry -- What did you say his 3 name was, Bekk -- I'm going to call him -- 4 MRS. STREETER: Bekkedam, B-e-k-k-e-d-a-m. 5 Q. When you first met Barry was it the year before 6 that or was it just a month -- 7 A. It would be the ending of '08. 8 4. Thank you? 9 A. And when I left the hedge fund it would have been, 10 you know, March or April of '09. 11 MRS. STREETER: Just answer her questions. 12 Q. And the hedge fund that you left was called what? 13 A. WR Capital Management. 14 4. So do you know when you or your stepfather first 15 put any money into Banyon Capital, roughly? 16 A. May of 2009. 17 4. And this is after you left WR Capital Management. 18 At that time were you employed? 19 A. I don't understand. 20 4. In the Spring of 2009 were you working someplace? 21 A. No. 22 Q. You were just doing your own investments? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. So let me go back to that. The year is -- after 25 your initial investment in Banyon Capital was it your EFTA01153197 Page 14 1 personal investment or was it made through some entity? 2 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question? 3 Q. When you first invested in Banyon 4 MRS. STREETER: Income Fund. 5 MRS. APRIL: Thank you. 6 Q. -- (continuing) Income Fund, was it a personal 7 investment of Dean Kretschmar or did you invest through some 8 entity that you formed. Do you know what I mean? 9 A. Yes, I understand what you're asking. It's either 10 one or the other. 11 Q. If you're not sure, you can tell me that. 12 A. I'm not sure. It could have been my Living Trust 13 or me personally. 14 Q. After the April or May of 2009, did you make any 15 further investment into any opportunity offered by Scott 16 Rothstein or his firm? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Can you tell me what that was? 19 A. That was in Razorback. 20 Q. And when was that, if you know? 21 A. That was in July. 22 Q. And -- 23 MRS. STREETER: Counsel, are you asking when he 24 made the investment or when he first heard about it? 25 MRS. APRIL: Well, I'm going to ask him the second EFTA01153198 Page 15 1 question, but I had asked him when you made the 2 investment, actually put money into it. 3 MRS. STREETER: If you're not sure of the dates 4 A. I know when I made my first investment, it was 5 June. It was early June, first or second. 6 Q. I'm not trying to trip you up with these dates 7 I'm just trying to get a time frame generally. 8 So let me ask you this, when did you -- what is 9 Razorback? 10 A. What is Razorback? 11 Q. Yeah. Other than it's a plaintiff on the lawsuit 12 that we talked about? I mean, is it a company? 13 A. Can I speak to you outside? 14 MRS. STREETER: Yes. 15 (WHEREUPON, an off-the-record discussion was had). 16 MRS. STREETER: I just want to put on the record 17 that Mr. Kretschmar is here to answer questions about 18 what happened with regard to the Epstein litigation and 19 the other litigation, the Razorback litigation is an 20 ongoing, pending litigation. And we ask that you 21 refrain from getting into any of those specific details 22 regarding investments that are not relevant and are not 23 reasonably calculated to lead to any evidence in your 24 case in particular. If you could get to this particular 25 issue. EFTA01153199 Page 16 1 MRS. APRIL: I'll try. 2 (WHEREUPON, an off-the-record discussion was had). 3 MRS. APRIL: I have in case anybody wants to refer 4 to them, including me, some calendars. Sometimes it 5 makes it a little easier to know when things happened. 6 Q. So you invested in something called Razorback? 7 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . 8 Q. We established that, right. And was Razorback's 9 investment also into the settlements or the kind of 10 settlements you described a little bit earlier with 11 Rothstein? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you invest after the investment in Razorback 14 any other times with Scott Rothstein in one of these 15 settlement funds? 16 MR. KING: Objection. Form. Vague. 17 Q. Did you ever make any other investment offered by 18 Scott Rothstein after the Razorback? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you ever meet Scott Rothstein? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you know when you first met him? 23 A. At a Boys and Girls Club fundraiser. It was the 24 Boca Resort. It's the car fundraiser where they have all the 25 cars. I forget what it's called. EFTA01153200 Page 17 1 Q. Do you know what year it was approximately? 2 A. Probably 2008. 3 Q. Did you have any substantive conversation with him 4 at that time 5 A. Nothing. 6 Q. -- about business or anything? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Was there ever a time where you met with Mr. 9 Rothstein and talked about business? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Was there ever a time after the Boca event for the 12 Boys and Girls Club that you met Scott Rothstein? 13 A. Not before the investment. 14 Q. Okay. Let's talk about then the time of the 15 investment. Did you have any face-to-face meetings with 16 Scott Rothstein in 2009? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Can you describe as best as you can recall the 19 first -- Was there more than one of those? 20 A. Yes 21 Q. Can you describe to the best of your ability your 22 first face-to-face business meeting with Rothstein about the 23 investment? 24 A. I was there. My father was there. Barry Bekkedam 25 was there. Barry Bekkedam and Ballamor Capital, some of his EFTA01153201 Page 18 1 people were there. George Levin was there. Frank Preve was 2 there. A.J. DiScala was there. 3 Q. Where is there? 4 A. And Scott Rothstein's personal office in his 5 firm. 6 Q. Had you ever been in his firm's offices before? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Was that over here on Las Olas, an office building? 9 A. Yes 10 Q. And were there any other persons present that you 11 can remember? 12 A. (No response) . 13 Q. Let me rephrase that. Even if you can't remember 14 their names, do you think there were other persons in the 15 room? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Can you describe the office to me, in other words, 18 was it a conference room like we're in today or something 19 different? 20 A. It was a combination office and conference room. 21 It had a large sectional couch, a lot of pictures of Scott 22 with various celebrities to governors to presidents. It was 23 elaborate, very nicely built -out office. 24 Q. Was there also a conference table or -- 25 A. Yes. EFTA01153202 Page 19 1 Q. And was it about as big as the one we're at today 2 which looks like it holds about 12 chairs? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Was it pretty much filled? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What month was that, if you know? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. Let me go back to that later and build to that. 9 How did you happen to be there that day, were you invited by 10 Mr. Rothstein? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And was this morning, lunch time, afternoon, did 13 you have a meal or anything? 14 A. I don't, I don't recall 15 Q. Was this meeting in the Fall of 2009? Was a 16 football season? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did some of the individuals who were there, like 19 Barry, travel from out of state to come to the meeting? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you spend any time with Barry prior to this 22 meeting, social or business? 23 A. I don't remember. 24 Q. You said Barry and Ballamor Capital, that's his 25 firm, right? EFTA01153203 Page 20 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you remember if he was accompanied by some other 3 individuals from his group? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you know their names, any? 6 A. Larry Rovin. 7 Q. Is that Rovin? 8 A. Rovin, R-o-v-i-n. I think he's an attorney 9 there. 10 Q. Anybody else? 11 A. Yes, but I don't remember the names. 12 Q. And you don't remember if you, like, went out with 13 that group to dinner or a ball game or on a boat or anything 14 during that visit? 15 A. No, we didn't. We didn't do that. 16 Q. Did you ever go to a Jets/Dolphins game with any of 17 these folks? 18 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . Yes. 19 Q. Do you know when that was, I mean, was it in this 20 same season? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you know if during that week you had any 23 conference or meeting with Rothstein? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. So, not to confuse the issue: Do you know if you EFTA01153204 Page 21 1 had already met with Scott Rothstein and some other 2 individuals prior to that meeting? 3 MR. KING: Objection to form. Vague. 4 Q. You follow what I'm saying? I can rephrase it. 5 A. Rephrase it. 6 Q. Is it accurate to say you had at least two 7 face-to-face meetings where Scott Rothstein was present? 8 A. Before the Jets game? 9 Q. Ever? At any time? 10 A. Yes, that's accurate. 11 Q. And was one of those before the Jets game? 12 A. Yes 13 Q. And was one after the Jets game? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know if it was soon after, the day after? 16 A. Yeah, it was the day after. 17 Q. Who won the game, do you know? 18 A. I think the Dolphins. 19 Q. So, when you first went to Scott Rothstein's 20 office, what was your understanding of the reason you were 21 going there? 22 MR. KING: Is this the first time? 23 MRS. APRIL: The first time. 24 A. We were going to talk more about the confidential 25 settlements. EFTA01153205 Page 22 1 Q. And this was the first time that you heard Scott 2 Rothstein discussing the confidential settlements? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. To the best of your recollection, what did he say, 5 in substance? I don't mean word for word. 6 A. I can generalize, but I don't remember word for 7 word what was really talked about, you know, specifics. I 8 mean, it was -- 9 Q. Generalized is fine. 10 MRS. STREETER: I don't want you to guess. 11 Q. In other words, did Scott, did he tell you 12 something about the confidential settlements and the process? 13 A. Yes, but it would be more specific to a meeting. 14 The one meeting we had where Barry Bekkedam and George were 15 there, it was more of the foundation of how Barry got there, 16 how George, you know, has been investing, nothing ever 17 tripped up. How we were going to come in and help George, we 18 were going to get a 15 percent return. 19 You know, the meeting after the Jets game, there 20 was a gentleman that flew in to meet Scott who was Thane 21 Ritchey. He was a friend of A.J. DiScala's. He flew in. 22 Scott had invited us to the game, A.J. and I, and we went to 23 the football game. And the next day, it was Thane Ritchey, 24 Michael Legamaro of Morgan, Lewis, Bockius, he had flown in 25 that Tuesday morning, and A.J. DiScala. EFTA01153206 Page 23 1 Scott at this time was talking about a big case 2 that involved a defendant that had a very large sum of money 3 and had had sex with underaged girls. And he had two girls. 4 Actually, he said it was one at first, very large settlement. 5 And I think the settlement was 18 million. 6 And so that conversation went into with Thane 7 Ritchey, A.J. DiScala and myself and Morgan Lewis and Michael 8 Legamaro from Morgan, Lewis to explain to Michael who A.J. 9 and I soon after hired him to do, you know, the due 10 diligence, you know. 11 Q. Had you ever met Mr. Legamaro before that day? 12 A. No. 13 Q. But you understood him to be a lawyer for Thane 14 Ritchey? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And at that meeting -- let me make sure I 17 understand who was there. Mr. Legamaro was there, Scott 18 Rothstein was there, Thane Ritchey, A.J. DiScala and you? 19 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . Yes. 20 Q. Was there anybody else there from Scott Rothstein's 21 firm for any part of the meeting? 22 A. No. 23 Q. At that meeting was it all talk? Let me rephrase 24 that. Was there just discussion or was there an examination 25 of any documents or materials? EFTA01153207 Page 24 1 A. No. 2 Q. In the room with you -- were you in the same room 3 that you had been in -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- the other time with the larger group? 6 A. Yes 7 Q. Did Scott at that time name the individual that he 8 was referring to who had sex with underaged girls and one 9 case had been settled? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you know from the description who he had been 12 talking about? 13 A. No, I had no idea. 14 Q. And did Mr. Legamaro ask questions of Scott 15 Rothstein about the cases? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And at that meeting do you know how long it lasted? 18 and I don't mean exactly but was it an hour, was it all day, 19 do you know? 20 A. A couple hours. 21 Q. And I believe you said a few minutes ago, after 22 that you decided to hire Michael Legamaro, I'm not sure if 23 that's the word you used, retained him? 24 A. Yes, we retained him. 25 Q. Again, who is we in that? EFTA01153208 Page 25 1 A. A.J. DiScala. 2 Q. What did you retain him for? 3 A. To represent Clockwork. 4 Q. Now, again, your lawyer has asked and I'm trying to 5 respect her wishes and not go into too much about what these 6 entities are, but you mentioned Clockwork. What is Clockwork 7 because I had not heard of them before? Are they another 8 fund? 9 A. (No response) . 10 Q. Let me rephrase it, because I'm not trying to make 11 your life difficult. Was Clockwork an existing entity at the 12 time that you engaged Mr. Legamaro, whatever it is? I'm not 13 even asking you what it is, but did it exist or do you know? 14 A. I think that you would have to be, you know, it's 15 our question: Was it or wasn't it? 16 Q. All right. Do you know if you had any formal 17 paperwork, an engagement letter signed with Mr. Legamaro? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Do you know if you paid Mr. Legamaro any advanced 20 retainer fees? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And did he represent you after that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And was there ever any time after that that you, 25 again, went to Scott Rothstein's office? EFTA01153209 Page 26 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you tell me about when it was or how much time 3 elapsed before you went back? 4 A. I think it was the following week. 5 Q. Let me just go back a little, because getting dates 6 down is sometimes important. The ball game you went to the 7 Jets/Dolphins game, was that a Monday night game or Sunday 8 night? 9 A. Monday night. 10 Q. Was it October of 2009? 11 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . 12 Q. So it looks to me like there was October 5, 12, 13 19th and 26th were all Mondays. So just for frame of 14 reference, one of those, and I guess we could check 15 independently to find out when there was a ball game. One of 16 those you went the next day and that's the first time you met 17 Michael Legamaro at Scott's office, right? 18 A. Yes 19 Q. Did you actually meet him for the first time in the 20 office or did you convene somewhere else first? 21 A. No, I think I met him in the office. 22 Q. And did he bring any other attorneys or paralegals 23 assistants with him? 24 A. No. 25 Q. So then you and A.J. engage him and then you say EFTA01153210 Page 27 1 there's another meeting some days later? 2 A. Michael came back down, Michael Legamaro came back 3 down and went to Scott's office with A.J. 4 Q. And do you know the purpose of that visit? 5 A. Michael was doing due diligence on RRA, on 6 Rothstein's firm, and wanted to spend more time with Scott 7 Rothstein understanding these investments. 8 Q. Were you there at all? 9 A. No, Not that meeting. 10 Q. Did A.J. discuss with you what occurred at that 11 meeting? 12 A. In general, he discussed that Michael and Scott 13 met. They got along. Michael understands the nature of the 14 settlements. Everything was going well. Michael had a lot 15 of questions for him and was continuing to investigate and do 16 due diligence on the investments of RRA, et cetera. 17 Basically, it was going well. 18 Q. Do you know if you saw Michael Legamaro at all 19 during that trip he made down here? 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. Did you see A.J.? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know if -- did A.J. say whether Mr. Legamaro 24 in that visit to the Scott Rothstein office looked at any 25 documents and/or saw any materials? EFTA01153211 Page 28 1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. Was there any time after that that you yourself, 3 again, went with to Rothstein's office? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And do you know approximately what date or how much 6 time elapsed from this meeting you just described that you 7 didn't go to? 8 A. I think a week. 9 Q. So about a week later you go to Rothstein's office? 10 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . 11 Q. And who else is there? 12 A. A.J. DiScala, Michael Legamaro. 13 Q. Anyone else. Thane Ritchey there? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Was Thane Ritchey -- Okay. He wasn't there. 16 So just the four of you were at that meeting? 17 A. As I recall. 18 Q. And what occurred at that meeting? 19 A. Scott was trying to close this deal which was the 20 first case. He then told us that the sister of this girl was 21 also involved with this client as well as at this point he 22 told us several girls now, once the first girl went forward 23 and started working with him, he was getting calls from other 24 girls saying that I, too, was, you know, involved with this 25 client. And so -- EFTA01153212 Page 29 1 Q. When you say the client, you mean the law firm -- 2 A. I'm sorry, the defendant. And so Scott was all 3 fired up saying we've gotta get the first one. We've got a 4 total of 18, you know, girls and now we've got the first one 5 that we need to close, but now the sister, you know, he can 6 get the sister negotiated and taken care of. 7 At this point it was -- we were, I'm trying to 8 understand the whole deal. It was a large sum of money. At 9 this point we were calling it bullshit. How can one person 10 get a settlement for 18 million. 11 So Scott at this point said, Okay, you guys are 12 here. I'm going to trust you. I'm going to open the case. 13 I'm going to bring it down and I'll let you see who this 14 person is. 15 At this point Thane was also, you're talking about 16 maybe a two-week time period of, you know, Thane was talking 17 about making a $5 million investment. So Michael was already 18 in the process of doing his due diligence and things that he 19 needed to do. So Scott called for the evidence of who this 20 person was. We were in Scott's office, his personal office 21 in R.R.A. . And 10, 15 minutes later in walks our former 22 Sheriff Ken Jenne, with another gentleman, I didn't know who 23 he was, bringing in several boxes which ended to be I think 24 about 19. 25 Q. Were the boxes marked or numbered? EFTA01153213 Page 30 1 A. Huh -- 2 Q. You know times boxes say 1 of 10, 2 of 10? I mean, 3 any numbering like that? 4 A. I don't remember. 5 Q. So Mr. Jenne walks in with someone else with the 6 boxes, and what does he do? 7 A. They start bringing all the boxes and they start 8 laying them, you know, as you walk in there was a, you know, 9 almost if you walked into this room, he was putting all the 10 boxes against the wall here and they were stacked. What 11 ended up being 19 boxes. So it was a lot of information. 12 Q. Were these like banker's boxes that you put files 13 in? 14 A. Yes. Yes. 15 Q. Then what happened? Did Jenne leave? 16 A. Yeah, he left. Scott had pulled some certain 17 information from the case files and said, you know, I'm going 18 to tell you about who he is. I need the utmost confidence in 19 this as this is an open case. It's an ongoing case. This 20 person has other issues. He's just getting out of -- either 21 he was in jail or just getting out of jail. So he kind of 22 set the stage of who this person was. He already had a track 23 record. He already had issues. It was already public. You 24 could Google it. 25 And these girls that came forward would not come EFTA01153214 Page 31 1 forward before and that was the, you know, confidential 2 nature of, you know, Scott saying I've got 18 of these girls 3 lined up and here is this person. His name is Jeffrey 4 Epstein. 5 Q. And at that moment had you heard of Jeffrey 6 Epstein? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Had the others who were there in the room 9 commented, you said that A.J. DiScala was there? 10 A. Uh-huh (affirmative response) . 11 Q. Did he act like he knew who Jeffrey Epstein was? 12 A. I don't think any of us knew who he was. 13 Q. So what happened after Scott said that? 14 A. Scott had some flight records I guess from Jeffrey 15 Epstein's plane or planes, I don't know if there were 16 multiple, but there were flight records It seemed to be 17 from, you know, a company that took the logs of them. Again, 18 I don't know if it was his actual company or the flight 19 company. 20 Scott started talking about some of the issues of 21 why he was going to be able to get these large sums of money, 22 number one. This gentleman, Jeffrey Epstein, is supposed to 23 be -- Scott said he's got over a four and a half billion 24 dollar networth of what Scott could -- what was kind of known 25 publicly. There were also people on these plane rides that EFTA01153215 Page 32 1 were known figures that definitely would not want this 2 information getting out and that the nature of the settlement 3 would, they would want to -- Jeffrey Epstein would want to 4 keep this quiet and that there was already pressures on him 5 to keep it quiet. 6 Q. Would want to keep what quiet? 7 A. The fact that there were underaged girls on these 8 planes, and there were other people on these planes and they 9 were public figures. 10 Q. Did you actually see these supposed flight logs? 11 A. Yes, a few of them. 12 Q. Did you recognize any names on them? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Can you say who any of them were? 15 A. Bill Clinton. Naomi Campbell, which I think she's 16 a super model. There was a reported Sheik, I don't remember 17 who it was but, obviously, an important person, a very 18 wealthy person. 19 Q. And it's your understanding that on these plane 20 trips there were underaged girls? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you find out the names of any of the girls? 23 A. No, but I remember Scott was explaining because all 24 the other people had their names written out but the girls, 25 it was just their first name and the first letter of their EFTA01153216 Page 33 1 last name. So if it was Sara, Sara something, it was Sara C. 2 Q. I see. So, there were these boxes in the room. 3 And were these flight logs removed from the boxes that Mr. 4 Jenne and the other gentlemen brought in or did Scott have 5 those separate? 6 A. Scott had those separate. 7 Q. Did he show you anything else by way of materials? 8 A. Yes. But they were, I think they were pieces of 9 his former accusations of former, you know, arrest records 10 and news clippings and some other things. 11 Q. Did you have a look at some of those? 12 A. Very quickly. 13 Q. Did anybody else in the room with you scrutinize 14 them more closely? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who? 17 A. Michael Legamaro with Morgan, Lewis, Bockius, the 18 attorney. 19 Q. Do you know what City Mr. Legamaro bases his 20 practice in? 21 A. Chicago, Illinois. 22 Q. Did you ever visit him there? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did Mr. Legamaro comment about any of the items 25 that he looked at in your presence in front of Scott EFTA01153217 Page 34 1 Rothstein? 2 A. Oh, yeah. 3 Q. Can you tell us what he said then? 4 A. Yeah, he went through the boxes. Scott said you 5 guys can look at the boxes, just don't take any of the 6 information, don't pull it out and misplace it from the 7 files. 8 So Michael Legamaro did spend, you know, some time 9 looking through a lot of the boxes and the files and said, 10 you know, This is a real case. And he explained that as a 11 young attorney he used to be an attorney for the United 12 States and I think he termed it as a jag attorney, which I 13 don't really know what that stands for, but he used to 14 prosecute for -- I think he said -- child molestation, 15 underage, you know, things of this nature which are -- I 16 don't know the word I'm looking for. 17 Q. Abuse? 18 A. Yeah, abuse. I would just put heightened concern, 19 you know, touchy subjects. I don't know if that's the -- 20 Q. So he told you something about his past experience 21 with cases of that nature? 22 A. Yes. He gave in that description, gave us 23 confidence that he knew what he was looking at. 24 Q. Did he ask for copies of anything that he looked 25 at? EFTA01153218 Page 35 1 A. I don't think so. 2 Q. Did he make any notes such as we -- 3 A. I don't remember. 4 Q. You said he made a remark along the lines of this 5 is a real case. Did you understand he only was looking at 6 one case? 7 MR. KING: Objection. Leading. 8 A. Repeat the question. 9 Q. Did you understand, do you know if he looked at 10 more than one case file? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Do you know if Mr. Legamaro, do you know how at 13 that time he was able to confirm that this is a real case? 14 A. I'm not an attorney. I don't know. 15 Q. Did he have a laptop with him? 16 A. I don't remember. 17 Q. Do you recall him at any time whether on his own 18 computer or one made available to him where he punched up 19 some numbers to look at any of the cases online, if you 20 remember? 21 A. That's a good question. 22 MRS. STREETER: Don't guess. 23 A. I know. I don't remember. 24 Q. Do you know how much time you spent at the 25 Rothstein office that day when Michael Legamaro was looking EFTA01153219 Page 36 1 at these files? 2 A. Hour and a half, two hours max. We had Thane 3 Ritchey on the phone. 4 Q. Oh, Okay. Was he on the phone the whole time? 5 A. Not, not the whole time. 6 Q. Was there any other conversation other than what 7 you've described between Scott Rothstein and any of you at 8 that gathering? 9 A. I'm sorry. Ask again. 10 Q. Other than what you've already testified to about 11 what Scott said and what Mr. Legamaro said, do you recall any 12 other conversation that occurred at that gathering? 13 A. (No response) . 14 Q. For example, you said Mr. Ritchey was on the phone. 15 Did he ask questions? 16 MR. KING: Objection. Compound. Unless you're 17 just focusing on that last question. 18 Q. Well, did he ask any questions? Let's focus on 19 that one. 20 A. He did. I don't remember specifics. 21 Q. Is there anything else that was said by anybody at 22 that meeting that you remember today concerning the 23 settlements or Mr. Epstein that you haven't already testified 24 about. 25 A. Yes, at that meeting A.J. DiScala had disclosed EFTA01153220 Page 37 1 that his friend Ted Waite is dating the girl or a girl that 2 used to date Jeffrey Epstein, and that he knows from prior 3 conversations with Ted that Jeffrey wasn't the, you know, was 4 kind of known to be a, you know, womanizer, a cheater, this 5 kind of -- this would fall in line with his character. A.J. 6 Said he was going to call Ted and see if he could talk to 7 Ted's girlfriend. 8 Q. Did A.J. say that in front of Rothstein? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. And do you know if A.J., did A.J. ever tell you 11 that he did speak to Ted Waite or the girlfriend? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What did he tell you about that? 14 A. He spoke to Ted. Ted got really pissed off at 15 him. 16 Q. At A.J.? 17 A. Oh, yeah. 18 Q. Because? 19 A. He just felt that from what A.J. said to me, he 20 just felt A.J. was out of line and, you know, he didn't want 21 his girlfriend being questioned about, you know, this stuff 22 and to, you know, mind his own business. 23 Q. And did he, as far as you know, after that not 24 involve the girlfriend? 25 A. I don't know. EFTA01153221 Page 38 1 Q. Do you know her name? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you ever meet this Ted Waite? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Does he live in New York? 6 A. No, he lives in San Diego. 7 Q. Have you ever met the girlfriend of Ted Waite who 8 used to be Jeffrey Epstein's girlfriend? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Anything else that you recall that was said during 11 this meeting that you haven't already testified about? 12 A. Not that I can think of. 13 Q. If you remember, at the conclusion of this meeting 14 was there any decision made about you going forward with the 15 investment or requiring additional time to decide? 16 A. It was our conclusion really based off of Michael 17 Legamaro's feelings, comments and, you know, him being a 18 respect -- what I thought was a respected attorney from a 19 very respected firm. He had high confidence this is a real 20 case and, you know, it could be that there are several of 21 these cases that were real. Potential, you know, 18 22 plaintiffs. He gave us the confidence to go forward and 23 invest. 24 Q. Did Scott Rothstein offer you any estimate of how 25 much money these settlements would be worth in his opinion, EFTA01153222 Page 39 1 total? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you remember the number? 4 A. It was over 300 million. 5 Q. After that did you have any other, was there ever 6 any other time that you were in Scott Rothstein's office? 7 A. I don't think so. 8 Q. You mentioned earlier something called Clockwork, 9 and without going into any particulars about what Clockwork 10 is: Did Clockwork make an investment in these Epstein 11 so-called settlements or potential settlements, if you 12 know? 13 MRS. STREETER: Do you want to step outside for a 14 minute? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 (WHEREUPON, an off-the-record discussion was had). 17 10 24. 10 33. Break. 18 Q. Before that break, you were talking about a meeting 19 at Scott Rothstein's personal office. You said you were 20 always in the same office when you went to his firm? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did any particular person at the firm ever, like, 23 escort you into the office or greet you? 24 A. Scott's secretary. 25 Q. Did you know her name? EFTA01153223 Page 40 1 A. No, she's a Latin girl. 2 Q. Did you, again, visit Scott Rothstein's office 3 after the meeting you described with Mr. Legamaro looking at 4 documents and things in boxes? 5 A. Not that I recall. 6 Q. Let me clarify something. So am I to understand 7 that you were in Scott's office on three occasions? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. These boxes that former sheriff Jenne and another 10 individual brought in, were they available for your review on 11 more than one of those meetings? 12 A. No response. 13 Q. I know it's been awhile and there's a lot that went 14 on at that time. 15 A. Yeah, I'm just going through it in my head. I was 16 there one time after and it was -- I don't remember exact 17 dates, how many days after, but I was there one time after. 18 Q. And do you know how were with? Was Mr. Rothstein 19 there, of course? 20 A. Of course. 21 Q. Anyone else? 22 A. A.J. DiScala. 23 Q. Was Mr. Legamaro with you at that time? 24 A. I don't remember. 25 Q. Was Thane Ritchey there? EFTA01153224 Page 41 1 A. No. 2 Q. And at that other visit to the Rothstein office, 3 were the boxes in the same location in his office? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you mentioned that when they were brought in 6 they were stacked up against the wall, but was there some 7 point -- 8 A. They weren't stacked up. They were just all on the 9 ground. Stacked next to each other but not stacked up. 10 Q. So when Mr. Leg Mo row looked at things in them did 11 he actually bend down on the floor to look or did he put them 12 on the table? 13 A. I know he bent over. I don't remember if he put 14 them on the table. 15 Q. Did you, for the several items that you described 16 that you looked at briefly, do you know if you put some on 17 the table or if you, you know, scooted down on the floor to 18 look at them? 19 A. I scooted on the floor or bent over. I didn't put 20 anything on the table. I really, you know, felt personally a 21 little uncomfortable because, number one, I didn't know what 22 I was looking at. I don't know what I'm look at, you know, 23 or looking for. 24 Q. Do you know the reason you went back this time that 25 you're describing when you said you went back one other time EFTA01153225 Page 42 1 with A.J. and possibly Legamaro, was it to continue the due 2 diligence or the examination of the file? 3 A. I don't remember. 4 Q. Do you know how you came to know about any of these 5 meetings, in other words, did you get an e-mail or a 6 telephone call or some other communication? 7 A. Most of it was A.J.. A.J. was more of the one that 8 was, for lack of a better word, the ring leader. 9 Q. He was setting up the appointments? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Did he telephone you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did A.J. come down here regularly during the fall 14 of 2009? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where did he stay? 17 A. My house. 18 Q. Did you live at the same address that you live at 19 presently? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did A.J. to your recollection ever send you e-mails 22 about visits to the Rothstein firm to set them up or remind 23 you or anything like that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you ever receive any e-mails from Scott EFTA01153226 Page 43 1 Rothstein directly? 2 A. I think I was copied. 3 Q. Did you ever send any e-mails to Scott Rothstein? 4 A. A couple. 5 Q. And was it concerning the investment he was 6 offering? 7 A. I sent him a thank you e-mail for the football 8 game, Monday night game and I don't remember what else. 9 Q. Did you ever have Scott's personal cell phone 10 number? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you ever call him? 13 A. Maybe three times. 14 Q. Do you know what about? 15 A. One was on a personal matter. The other two may 16 have been for a meeting. 17 Q. When you say about a meeting, you mean a meeting 18 related to these investment opportunities? 19 A. Yeah. If A.J. couldn't get a hold of him, he would 20 have me call. 21 Q. So did Scott, to your knowledge, make these 22 appointments on his own as opposed to through his 23 secretary? 24 MRS. STREETER: If you know. 25 A. Sometimes he did. EFTA01153227 Page 44 1 Q. How did you first meet A.J. DiScala? 2 A. I was introduced to A.J. from a friend of mine 3 named Joe Gamborelli. 4 Q. And when was that? 5 A. That was in around October of 2008. 6 Q. Was that when you were in New York? 7 A. September of -- yeah, when I first got up there. 8 Joe lives in New York. 9 Q. And did you ever work with A.J. after that, I mean, 10 like -- let me rephrase that. Did you ever have any business 11 dealings with A.J. prior to the investment we've been talking 12 about? 13 A. I looked at a couple of things. I never invested 14 in the deals he did. 15 Q. And what was his occupation when you met him? 16 A. Good question. 17 Q. Or what did you -- 18 A. Investment banker. 19 Q. Okay. Sometimes the question is what did you 20 understand his occupation to be. Investment banker? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Was he with a firm? 23 A. No, he was on his own. 24 Q. Does he live in New York to your knowledge? 25 A. Yes. EFTA01153228 Page 45 1 Q. Have you been to his home? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Where does he live? 4 A. Exact address? 5 Q. Whatever you know? 6 A. I probably got it in my phone. I don't know his 7 act address off the top of my head. 8 Q. But is it an apartment building, is it yup town or 9 downtown? 10 A. It's near Tribeca. He lives in an apartment, he 11 doesn't own it. 12 Q. Going back to the documents that Michael Legamaro 13 looked at and files when you were in Scott Rothstein's 14 office, are you able to say what he specifically looked at, 15 in other words, whether they were court papers or whether 16 they were some other kind of papers? 17 A. Of what Michael Legamaro looked at? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. He looked through many of the boxes. I think there 20 were, you know, court papers. 21 MRS. STREETER: Do you know what they were? 22 A. Not specifically, no. 23 Q. When I say court papers, I'm talking about things 24 that are actually filed in court. Like, I had shown you 25 before the beginning of this complaint, the Razorback EFTA01153229 Page 46 1 complaint. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know if he looked at any papers that are 4 styled