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http:// --> Ashland, Oregon HOME Valley & State Sports Nation & World Opinion/Editorial Classifieds Business Columnists Local Issues Obituaries Weather Archive Revels Etcetera Backpage Hot Topics Most Viewed Forum Photo Galleries Video Readers Polls O-Zone Online Games Movie Preview Special Sections Real Estate Guide Menu Guide Shakespeare Subscribe Contact Us Rate Card Place an Ad Featured Galleries: May 23, 2007 Holes in the story By Robert Plain Ashland Daily Tidings Ashlanders are not convinced. Six years have passed since the events of Sept. 11, 2001. So to have several governmental explanations, a 9-11 bipartisan commission, which released an official report, to address the unanswered questions that hang over what the U.S. government has classified as a terrorist attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon that memorable September morning. Still, Ashland residents, and a growing number of American citizens, still have unanswered questions. Ashland residents, perhaps more so than the nation as a whole, aren't satisfied with the official account, or the lack thereof, about these events. A recent Scripps Howard poll showed that more than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them. An unscientific poll conducted on the Tidings' Web site indicated that 44 percent of responders don't believe the official story, or think the U.S. government was involved in planning the attacks. "There's something really wrong with this picture," said Ken Becker, who founded an Ashland-based organization seeking the truth about what happened on Sept. 11. "The official conspiracy theory is so filled with holes. So what's the truth?" Becker, the self-appointed leader of the local 9-11 truth movement, thinks it was an inside job, planned and executed by Vice President Dick Cheney and his neo-conservative cohorts in the White House. "This isn't new, it isn't unfathomable. It isn't even unreasonable," Becker said. "But still a huge percentage of Americans still believe their government would never do them wrong." According to Becker, a significant number of their constituents think like he does. He has an e-mail list with "a couple hundred" people from Ashland on it. "I'm not telling anyone what to believe," he said. "Do your own research." Becker helped bring noted author David Ray Griffin to Southern Oregon University at 7 p.m. Thursday to present a lecture on what he, and others, believe really happened that fateful September morning. Tickets cost $10; $5 for students. The talk is entitled, "Debunking the 9/11 Debunking." See Ashland resident Ken Becker's Web site 911truthnow.org for more information. LOCAL CONNECTIONS John Fisher-Smith is an active member of the Ashland community. Fisher-Smith studied architecture in college, where he took classes in civil engineering. "I'm certain that the World Trade Center buildings were demolished by some other means than an aircraft," he said. "The nature of [construction] steel is that when it bends it gets stronger. Those buildings exhibited brittle behavior." His wife, Dot Fisher-Smith, concurred. "Just about everyone I talk with suspects something fishy happened," she said. "I know it's horrifying to think about, but it's even more horrifying not to think about it." The Fisher-Smiths believe the attacks were staged so that the White House "has an excuse to take all these actions." They listed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Patriot Act, torture and a worldwide war on the nebulous notion of terror. Nancy Spencer, a retired musician and long-time Ashland resident, is what is known as a LIHOP, in the 9-11 truth movement. LIHOP stands for "let it happen on purpose. The other acronym in the truth movement is MIHOP, which stands for "made it happen on purpose." "We need answers," she said. "I'm not willing to say the administration planned it, but why doesn't it all add up. I think it's possible we allowed it to happen to give us an excuse to invade Iraq." She said she knows many locals who think like she does. "Everybody in my book club," she said, of which there are 12 other members. "I probably know more than 30 people who don't buy the official story." Spencer said Ashland has a high percentage of people who question the official account of Sept. 11 because "Ashlanders spend more time reading than they do watching 'American Idol.'" Harriett Rex Smith, a well-known Ashland painter who questions the official account, thinks the reason Ashlanders are so likely to doubt the official account is because Ashland attracts free-thinkers. "The beauty of this place has attracted a lot of creative people," she said. "Creative people are open-minded." Smith has a master's degree from Notre Dame University, and has taught at Purdue and Indiana Universities. But some think she's taken the issue too far. "My own family thinks I'm obsessive about this," she said. "I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I believe the government itself entered into some sort of conspiracy. Other countries told us that there were going to be attacks. There must have been complicity at some level." Staff writer Robert Plain can be reached at 482-3456 x. 226 or [email protected] . Current Comments: "Ashlanders are not convinced." "Ashland residents...still have unanswered questions." Honestly, this should say SOME Ashlanders and SOME Ashland residents. By your own unscientific poll, it was not even a majority. Please correct your story to reflect the reality of Ashlanders' beliefs. Your story makes it sound unanimous. It is not. I might even fall into that 44% you mentioned as I agree that there are some questions but I'm also not convinced of the full-blown inside job theory either. Clarification, please. - Ashland, OR - May 23rd, 1:17 PM Why don't you all go to the library to do some more research. Oh, wait.... It's amazing the amount of free time some people in Ashland have to waste on conspiracy theories about conspiracies and other boondogles. Keep it up, you keep the rest of us laughing. SOUalum - brookings, or - May 23rd, 1:21 PM I agree with the above posting. Leave it to the wild and irrational imaginations of many Ashlanders to insinuate the Government's involvement in 9/11. The cloistered extremism that leads to these childish conspiracy theories is so embarrassing. I'm from ever liberal Berkeley, CA, however that brand of more informed radicalism is at least somewhat fact based. It is just so out of touch. To think for a second that the Government could cover up involvement in 9/11 is preposterous. Erik Connolly - Ashland, OR - May 23rd, 2:32 PM I still think a bunch of pissed of muslims did it. the theory of evoulution has a bunch of loopholes but that doesnt mean it noth true. EB - ashland or - May 23rd, 2:52 PM This story along with the editorial the other day is the perfect illustration of why many of us dropped our subscriptions to the Daily Tidings. The DT's current editorial stance panders to the extreme sides of the political spectrum in this town and has very little to say to those of us in the middle. Fact of the matter is that most of those 44% who answered the poll would have doubts about whether chickens have beaks if the Bush Administration advanced that observation. Truth seekers indeed. Ron - Ashland - May 23rd, 3:07 PM .....and if you believe that...JFK is still alive and finally living with Jackie in a secluded mansion on an island and strangely enough, Elvis is their neighbor. Jeanette - Ashland, Oregon - May 23rd, 3:51 PM The tidings has yet again hit a new low in, "journalism". Why is it that all this week they are focusing on this leftist campaign against America and it's most severe trgedy in recent times? I think it is time to boycott this ridiculous tabloid paper in the name sanity. Sick of Tidings - Ashland - May 23rd, 4:19 PM Some Ashland residents are idiots and also believe that the sky is falling! JD - Ashland, OR - May 23rd, 4:21 PM I hear a lot of angry sounding responses. Perhaps these ideas strike a cord deep down inside you. As Dot said, it's horrible to have to think about this, but it's also tragic to NOT THINK about it. Look inside, listen deeply. What does your gut say? Really. Ashland Resident - Ashland, OR - May 23rd, 4:26 PM Just as with other "theories" this one will go on because it can't be proven, one way or the other. It is a free country and those who wish to believe in this conspiracy are welcome to their opinions. Little seems to be said that the Bush administration was only in power for eight months at the time of 9/11. So what was the Clinton administration doing the previous eight years. Maybe they were recruiting the terrorists or providing them documents and funds. That's a conspiracy theory. Fredster - Ashland, Oregon - May 23rd, 5:08 PM A response to this drivel is the most futile act imaginable, but here goes: Ashland conspiracy nuts and the DT e-board, you are bone-heads. Usama bin-Laden funded a "planes operation" against high visibility targets in the United States. Khalid Sheik Mohammed was the operations chief who planned the attack. Radical Islam is the ideology that fueled the attack. That's not as sexy as whacky theories, but it is the simple truth. By printing this stuff, you legitimize cranks. DT=Fish wrap! News Reader - Ashland, Oregon - May 23rd, 5:28 PM Since when does the paper create the news? Aren't you supposed to report on things that happen, not make them happen? You post a poll,leading up to a headline,leading up to a guest speaker. You are creating a buzz, knowing this conspiracy theorist is coming to town, and for those of you ready to believe every theory this nut-job is pushing, consider too he is selling books. Thank you DT for showing us you know nothing of your industry (journalism),and for illustrating the need for another paper. Mike - Talent - May 23rd, 5:41 PM I want to congratulate the Tidings on this courageous and informed stand. I find it interesting that the majority of those asking for answers to the lingering questions surrounding the horrors of 9/11 are literate and reasoning, whereas many of the defenders of the government conspiracy theory resort to ranting and name calling. There can be no valid excuse for not answering the lingering questions. Where are those surveillance tapes that were confiscated at the pentagon? Patrick Walthall ( [email protected] ) - Ashland, Oregon - May 23rd, 5:56 PM thanks for being one of the only honest sources of media left, it's a shame more people don't stand behind you. I hope even the non believers will get a chance to come to our event tomorrow night with an open mind, and show some respect for your fellow Ashland residents Students For Truth - Ashland, OR - May 23rd, 5:58 PM Complete trash. Shame on you Daily Tidings. The most embrassing journalism I have ever seen. Practical - Ashland, Oregon - May 23rd, 6:08 PM Yes, 911 govt story is truth, no blemishes! Oh, and by the way, The Sky IS Falling! Chicken Little - Jefferson State - May 23rd, 6:17 PM The DT's story and editorials are no surprise. Mike Green is one of Southern Oregon's leading 9/11 conspiracy pushers and even has a book he can sell you on the subject! Talk about a conflict. Oh, and DT's local experts to back up the conspiracy? Ultra lefty Dot Fisher-Smith; her husband, who took some architecture classes 50 years ago; a retired musician (wtf?); Ken Becker, who organizes these 9/11 events. Ashland is for magical thinkers who can't compose a rational thought if they wanted to. Oregon Bluejay - Ashland - May 23rd, 7:39 PM Just to annoy those of you who think our leaders would do no harm, let's remember the anthrax "attack" on the Capitol that enabled Bush to shut down Congress shortly after 9/11 against the will of most legislators -- an attack that hasn't been prosecuted and produced dubious chemical evidence. Of course John Ashcroft (now resurrected as a civil rights hero) wouldn't have snooped into congressional files while he had exclusive control of Capitol Hill. newswatch - Ashland, OR - May 23rd, 7:47 PM Thanks Tidings� that was fun. I stopped taking your paper a few years back because I kept getting it confused with the news. Now, could you do an article on the Flat Earth Society? Thanks, Rick Vezie Ashland Rick Vezie - Ashland, Oregon - May 23rd, 8:00 PM It is one thing to suspect that perhaps those in power knew tne movements of the hijackers just before the attack and let it slide; and quite another to believe that WTC had timed explosives and in it that Cheney and others [many others] orchestrated it[sucessfully and secretly].But thw attack WAS our pretext for going in there. Just one of the bases being built there [about 13 sq. miles big]has bowling alleys,fast food restaurants and a cineplex.We`re there for the long haul... jg - Ashland OR - May 23rd, 8:26 PM To read the Tidings, you get the impression Ashland citizens think differently than the 'average" US citizen. Well, maybe about 1/2 *do* process information differently, but using the word "think" is an abuse. The Tidings more and more is writing articles promoting the "quirky" citizens rather than those who do "think," and we think that a very vocal minority is irresponsible, brash and closed to any thinking. Is it time for another newspaper that can represent at least the other 1/2 of us? Lester - Ashland OR - May 23rd, 8:56 PM To me its a 'no brainer' that the U.S. government had something to do with the attacks, or at the very least knew about it ahead of time and did nothing to stop it. Way to go Tidings for printing such a bold article, hopefully it'll help more people to wake up and realize that our government wants to keep us in fear and hatred because that gives them more power to do as they please, and at the world's expense!!! However, regardless if the truth comes ever comes to the surface or not, there won't be peace on this planet until the majority of the people living on it come to peace with themselves, myself included. God Bless us all! Mikey-Mike - Ashland, OR - May 23rd, 8:56 PM Your little experiment is shameful. For everything we as a community are currently facing: closed libraries, closed schools, unemployment, environmental concerns, a meth epidemic, homelessness, it's unfortunate you are not more constructive in your power to influence public debate. This with the timing of a speaker seen by his own colleges as a zealot. It just doesn't feel right somehow, like you are kind of failing in your mission to inform the public about important things happening. You know? Melanie - Ashland - May 23rd, 9:06 PM This is silly. As usual the simplest answer is correct. I don't think our government is smart enough to pull that off. Why don't you all get back to obsessing about irradiated food and water floridation? paulg - Ashland Oregon - May 23rd, 11:34 PM Where is the mentioning of Students for Truth, the student group that is sponsoring this event? Or what about the other sponsor-Womens International League for Peace and Freedom? Students for Truth - Ashland, OR - May 23rd, 11:36 PM If you are going to print statistics to prove your case it would be helpful if you gave the complete statistics. For example how many people responded to the online poll? and why did you combine two different responses into one? Perhaps to skew the results. Be fair if you are going to take a poll and use the responses for your story. Laura - Ashland,OR - May 24th, 12:57 AM The words fail me; so I'll type instead. The preacher comes morrow With tails of sorrow. Is it possible that this thing above is run as a news "story" rather than an editorial? Or is it a review of an upcoming tragic comedy? For those belivers, Lifos, Fifos, whatever, you can think your way out of that dark bag. I'm sorry, you just don't realize how silly you look that way. Go here for enlightenment: http://www.debunking911.com/ For those even entertaining this nonsense as an intellectual exercise, you'll quickly see numerous distortions, ommissions, and unsupported conclusions, if you do more than accept their "indisputable facts" and read even the bare minimum of an Graduates for MisInformation - Ashland, USA - May 24th, 1:14 AM Given the tone of most of the comments above mine, it is obvious that it takes courage to speak about certain topics. For every polemic, there are those for, and those against... and those who actually try to inform themselves before talking... I spent a lot of time studying the topic of 9/11, and there are two things I know for sure: there are a lot of unanswered yet very important questions, and a new independent investigation could provide some answers. We need it. Thanks ADT! Augustin - Taichung - May 24th, 2:58 AM Mr. Fisher attended some civil engineering classes? Count Rosie O'Donnel amongst your resume' of scientific factoids. Dot concurred? What a rag the Tidings has become. This is front page fodder for the mind? Who needs libraries? Wait, isn't steel created from super heated molten liquid, then pour into ingots? Get Rosie on the phone and have her speak at your forum. What a joke, tabloid trash, DT Stopthemaddness - Ashland, Oregon - May 24th, 6:14 AM I am stunned that a local paper would have the courage to tell this untold story. Just a look at the majority of comments here tells me that the editors of the paper took a huge risk with this one. Here in Tacoma, where probably 50+ percent believe the Bush administration had something to do with it, we can't do what you guys have done, which is organize an event of this quality and get favorable news coverage. I am totally in awe. For all you haters, why not go see what Griffin has to say? Tahoma Activist - Tacoma, WA - May 24th, 6:55 AM I am saddened by the Americans with closed minds that trust George Bush and his band of idiots. When we become Nazi-America it'll be too late to express your opinions. We have been ripped off & lied to by our government, had our rights removed, & young men & women die everyday in Iraq for this cause. Do you really feel in your heart that war is just & our citizens should die for this? It has been proven that they lied about Iraq, why not 9/11? Dave Orchid - Ashland - May 24th, 6:59 AM A triumph of marketing/PR by the Tidings! Polls, advance notice, day-before stories, editorials, letters to the editor, now "news" � tomorrow's story, of course, will be "Overflow Audience Hears 9/11 Truth Team" with a repeat of the "scholars'" message & and more wide-eyed comments. A great job! You've read Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consensus," absorbed Orwell, & applied the tactics of "The Age of Propaganda." Can't wait for your "coverage" of the new Michael Moore agitprop film. nofreelunch - ashland, OR - May 24th, 7:22 AM I believe 9/11 was a set-up to lead us to the Mid East Oil Pool. From the start, we have been duped by the Bushs, Cheneys, etc. They are liars, swindlers and cheats and we STILL can't seem to throw them out of office. What's wrong with this picture???? Lael Jackson ( [email protected] ) - Del Mar, CA - May 24th, 7:23 AM Do no harm [to Truth]! The absence of elementary logic in this article is highlighted even through the litany of factoids. If A implies B, but C does not overlap with A or B, then A and/or B do not imply C. That we have holes in public knowledge of 911 should be a call for those facts. This does not imply that members of our government conspired to cause 911, even if their behavior was reprehensible before and is so after 911. This article is a disservice to truth. Lester - Ashland OR - May 24th, 9:04 AM yeah, Bush knew it was coming, so he scheduled a reading at an elementary school on the day of the event so everyone could see how courageously he handled the news, and how quick he was to jump to action. the real challenge must have been hiring all the actors to be eyewitnesses, and to convince the hundreds of military and civilians to go along with the plot. How busy they must have been in the 8 months they had to orchestrate this! And not one leak!If you believe the conspiracy,you are a fool. Mike - Talent - May 24th, 9:06 AM From what I've seen, I believe certain persons in our government were the creators of 9/11, for their own financial interests. It's all about money and power, power and money. It's time we wake up and stand up! Karren - Newport Beach, CA - May 24th, 9:36 AM If Bush & Co. did this, why only once? Wouldn't it make sense to have 2, 3, many 9/11s to justify martial law, suspend civil rights, suppress dissent, justify military action against Iran, etc.? Why risk everything on one event? Why give the opposition the chance to raise questions for political gain? Why empower "scholars" and allow them to sabotage this carefully laid conspiracy? Oh, I forgot, Bush is a moron. And not only that, but he's planning to suspend the 2008 election. Duh. nofreelunch - ashland, OR - May 24th, 10:23 AM Another question: If Al Quaeda was not involved, why did they celebrate and claim credit for 9/11, knowing they would be put to the sword? Shouldn't they be loudly disclaiming responsibility? Or, is Al Quaeda run by morons, too? Or maybe it's part of the Bush conspiracy team, involved in a clever inside-out, triple-cross backflip of ever expanding webs within webs? Whoa. It's enough to make you cut class, spark another doobie, and hang at the Coop all day. nofreelunch - ashland, OR - May 24th, 10:32 AM Such attention from far and wide! Look DT, you've officially made it into the country's must trusted news source, the 9/11 conspiracy blog: (http://www.911blogger.com/node/8804). It's calling for all "followers" to log onto your webpage and offer support for your journalistic "courage". You, DT, are way out of touch and should consider your role in this community. Remember the journalist's creed?: "I believe the supreme test of good journalism is the measure of its public service." Mike - Talent - May 24th, 10:54 AM Great comments above, being skeptical of a conspiracy theory, but where is this healthy skepticism with your own gov? DT is accused of orchestrating a buzz, yet somehow the proven liar Bush isn't capable of using CIA operative Bin Laden to do the work CIA operatives do? No, CIA Bush Sr. wasn't involved with his boy Bin Laden, no Halliburton didn't get rich, no fuel prices didn't sore to help Bush and his oil men. The Nazis succeeded through complacency of the majority. The same is true in US E - Ashland, OR - May 24th, 11:00 AM My biggest question concerns the utter collapse of air defenses that day. We scramble a jet to go after Payne Stewart's ghost flight, but not one jet is capable of stopping the Pentagon plane? (There was time) What would've happened had these been MIGs? What about the AA defenses in D.C.? VP Cheney was in control of a terrorist war game action in NYC that day, also. I'd like to know why. I voted for them in 2000 and '04, but there are troubling aspects of the government's report, IMHO. Bill Meyer ( [email protected] ) - Jacksonville, Oregon - May 24th, 11:06 AM The CIA is a dirty tricks agency. They should have been disbanded after WWII. We are now creating super criminals such as Bush, just as the KGB has created their own. Whether you buy a full blown conspiracy, please just consider how 'convenient' it has all been and how Bush used the climate of fear to full advantage. At the least it's opportunism, however a president who can lie about WMD in order to kill and wound tens of thousands of Americans, can also kill us on our own soil. Wake up! E - Ashland, OR - May 24th, 11:13 AM Kudos for the Ashland Tidings for having the courage to run a story like this. The venemous response you received from many of the above posters is amazing. Isnt it interesting though, that never before in the history of human life on Earth, had fire brought down a steel framed building, yet THREE buildings fell that day, including one, Trade Center 7, that was not even hit by an airplane. Wake up, people..our government is lying to us. 9-11 was our Reichstag fire. Vic - Silverton , Oregon - May 24th, 11:58 AM Check out some of the free movie downloads at www.question911.com and then make up your own mind. Rosie O'Donnell, Charlie Sheen, David Lynch, and James Brolin are already have. mimi - ca - May 24th, 12:25 PM Hey 'Mike'- are you kidding? That's the journalist's role? A 'measure of public service'? That's the very philosophy of Goebbels and Hitler when it comes to the 5th Estate. 911 is the single most ignored event in the press. Yes, it is. They just expect the public to swallow the whole box-cutter story without question. Why do most Americans think Bush & Cheney are lying about WMD's, Al-Qaeda, Iran, etc. but telling the truth about what happened on 911? People are waking up bigtime these days. savybrain67 - Ca - May 24th, 12:39 PM The media censors 9/11 truth. Censorship is becoming America's favorite past-time. The US gov't (and their corporate friends) already detains protesters, bans books like "America Deceived" from Amazon and shuts down Imus. Free Speech forever (especially for 9/11 truth). Last link (before Google Books caves to pressure and drops the title): http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0 Wallace - NY, NY - May 24th, 12:45 PM Dear nofreelunch there has been other attacks but not IN the usa. madrid, london....3/11/ 7/11 such significant dates dontchathink as americans, we dont care about over there only over here. whoever did 3/11 & 7/11 (ha ha) thought the usa and the world would be OUTRAGED!!!! IF THE NEO-CONS ARE SMART..THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER ATTACK IN NY.....MAYBE A SMALL TOWN IN THE US OF A imabeliever - new york, new york - May 24th, 12:46 PM Ashland Tidings I didn't think it was possible, but you really have outdone low. Who the heck is this guy Fisher-Smith? So what that he studied a little architecture in college and took a class in civil engineering. Guess that is enough to discredit real engineering and metalurgical experts? Geez Ashland Tidings we don't really need your help to spread the spacey, airheaded reputation we have already. Bunk - ashland, or - May 24th, 12:55 PM Message to all "Official Fairy Tale" believing sheep: I'll believe the official version of 9/11, if you show me some evidence. 1. Show me the arab names on an official airline passenger list. Provide link. 2. Show me a video of the arabs at the airport on 9/11. No, not the video of Atta at the Maine aiport, flight 11 left from Boston. Oh, and don't tell me they didn't have video cameras, even 7/11 stores had cameras by 2001. barnstorm - ashland - May 24th, 1:04 PM ...Ashland residents, perhaps more so than the nation as a whole, aren't satisfied with the official account, or the lack thereof, about these events... HOW DARE ADT SPEAK ON MY BEHALF!!! I do not have this opinion, nor do any of my neighbors. Where do you get your information from? Is it just made up in order sell to people who believe this. It sounds like a bad science fiction novel's first chapter. OMG...PLEAZzz STOP speaking on my behalf ADT and if possible report NEWS and maybe gossip Janet Smith - Ashland - May 24th, 1:10 PM Bunk- so 'real' engineering experts don't go to college, don't study civil engineering or architecture? Just what then makes your 'real' experts such experts? You sound mighty confused, and pardon the pun, full of 'bunk'. josh - or - May 24th, 1:13 PM Well, Janet, the reason you and your charmed circle don't believe any of this is because you are being fed a steady stream of coverup, disinformation, and boldface lies by our mainstream media. But mostly, the story is ignored in favor of blind fake-patriotic fervor for Arab blood. We've been Hitlered but good. Watch those towers fall just like an old Vegas hotel! Google-911 InsideJob josh - or - May 24th, 1:21 PM What is most worrisome is there's still so many mindless drones who support the Bush Admin. Great question by Bill Meyer: Where were our "scrambled air defenses" after Tower 1 was hit? All under maintenance? Don't you think destruction of that caliber ON OUR OWN SOIL should've warranted air response of some kind? Is our Air Force really so incompetent, we honestly had no air defenses IN THE AIR before Tower 2 became a target? Choose your poison: idiots in power or the need for another Air Force EC - AZ - May 24th, 1:33 PM Why isn't Giuliani, Mayor of NYC on that day, hounded by people asking him one simple question: why he shipped away the steel in a hurry to be recycled without letting engineers look at it? And what about 6 of those "19 Arab hijackers" found alive and well in Saudi Arabia two days after 9-11. And those "dancing Israelis" arrested after being observed high-fiving and celebrating in Weehawken, across the Hudson River, as the towers collapsed? They were Mossad, and Israeli military. T. Weed ( [email protected] ) - Hoboken, NJ - May 24th, 1:43 PM It's too psychologically painful a thought for most to consider. Americans are the most brainwashed and propagandized people in the world. We are taught from an early age that the enemy is always somebody else. With that said, even a cursory look at the evidence reveals that the government was complicit in the attacks. Perhaps it's out of fear on the part of some that honest Americans searching for the truth about that day are constantly maligned and denigrated. Peter - Bellevue, WA - May 24th, 1:45 PM i buried paul. conspiracy theories are fun, but thousands and thousands of people have died because of the lies the government has uncontestably told SINCE 9/11. let's put our energy instead into stopping the iraq war now! dennis black - ashland, or - May 24th, 1:50 PM It is numbing the level of brain deadness in this country. Think about the term "conspiracy theory". A conspiracy is multiple people getting together to do harm to others. Theory is an unproven hypothesis. Your gov't have foisted a conspiracy theory on us that doesn't wash. Not to mention they crusify(Steven Jones and others) all who challenge "their" theory. Why? America has lived in a bubble to long for the sake of comfort. It was an inside job. people.Freedom isn't free.Ignorance is expensive ROBERT - san antonio texas - May 24th, 2:35 PM To Josh, who seems to have a good deal of time on his hands like many of the conspiracy-believers, only one response . . . find a real life. Bunk - Ashland, Or - May 24th, 2:41 PM http://www.st911.org/ Hundreds of tenured Professors. Civil,mechanical and electrical engineers. Aeronautic experts, philosophy and religion. Yes Hundreds make scientific observations, no theory, no agenda, just science. A hydrocarbon fire can not "disintigrate a 47 interoir column 250+ exterior column structual steel building in (57) minutes. Laws of conservation of momentum, molten steel in the sub-basements, etc. all point to controlled demoliton. Ridicule does not refute truth. truth - ashland - May 24th, 2:43 PM Bunk- that's HEAVY, dude. What a debater you are. A regular Bill Buckley! josh - or - May 24th, 3:59 PM How does a freeway melting in San Francisco jibe with this 9/11 hookum? Has a freeway made with concrete and structural steel ever melted in a hydrocarbon fire? Or did Cheney plant thermite on that job, too? Look at the history of the towers. They were built cheaply to make up for the fact that all that office space was unneeded. Cheap design, fatal flaws. Those countering 9/11 conspiracies are NOT Bush supporters, just rational thinkers. Tidings, you are a disgrace to responsible journalism. Oregon Bluejay - Ashland - May 24th, 4:27 PM I have met quite a few people who do not believe the official story but think we should keep it to ourselves. I can't shut up; I'm too nosy! Richard - Philadelphia, PA - May 24th, 4:30 PM The government did not just let the events on 9/11 happen, they worked very hard to insure it would happen. The CIA in a carefully crafted conspiracy hid the names of 2 al Qaeda terrorists, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi from the FBI for 21 months. They had been photographed at the request of the CIA, attending an al Qaeda planning meeting in Kuala Lumpur on Jan 5-8, 2000. This information was then hidden from the FBI until Aug 23, 2001. See www.eventson911.com for the details on this. Palo Alto - Palo Alto - May 24th, 5:06 PM say there Bluejay- the towers of the WTC were designed to withstand waaaaay more than a few jets hitting it. Do your homework before you shoot your mouth off. Bombs baby, bombs. Plenty of cops and firemen heard and felt them. Just like OKC. Keep your head up your butt if you want. They LOVE that. josh - or - May 24th, 5:38 PM Explain the 8 mile debris field of Flight 93. It was shot down. Dead Beamers tell no conflicting tales. Why have the contents of the 8 flight recorders been kept secret? Why did the FBI confiscate the cameras with the images of the Pentagon crash? How about WTC 7? How did 4 airplanes get hijacked without Air Force response. We paid for defense. We got 9-11. I cringed when I concluded that the USA attacked itself. Bush & Co. did it. vanbuskirk - Indianapolis IN - May 24th, 5:46 PM Well done. This is a very painful subject to deal with but all it takes is 15 minutes research to see SOLID proof of an inside job. The first time I heard this, I was angry too and wanted to punch the fellow who told me this but facts are facts. Raymond - Omaha - May 24th, 6:18 PM It is a shame you are being called such bad things, yet no one is offering anything to refute what you say. We say there was explosives residue found in the WTC rubble, they say we're conspiracy nuts. We say the Pentagon is the most videoed bldg in the world, yet they still refuse to show us a video of the plane hitting the building, and they say we are traitors who hate our government. I say wake up and start believing your lying eyes. We demand 9/11 truth now! www.wtc7.net www.911truth.org Edward - Raleigh, NC - May 24th, 7:48 PM I hate to break this to you Americans but the Bush-Blair 'Osama's Flying Circus' narrative is unravelling fast - world-wide. Do we believe that US air defence coincidentally stood down for 90 minutes while TWO amateur Cessna pilots brought down THREE Manhattan skyscrapers with awesome precision? No. And we don't believe in Santa & The Elves either. Google 'false flag terrorism' and take your country back from dual nationality neo-cons. Wake up before another '911' ushers in the draft. Merle Vidal - Auckland, NZ - May 25th, 12:33 AM To Josh - didn't see a debate here. You need two intelligent people for that. Me - having an BS in Physics and MS in EE I question ADT's journalistic integrity, when they pass off as credible comments from people so remote from the engineering investigation - completely disregarding the many credible engineering studies of what destroyed the WTC. You - I'm not sure what you are doing. Leave it to a conspiracy crack-pot to stir up trouble. Bunk - ashland, or - May 25th, 5:08 AM One final comment and question - does it really matter if some terrorists were actually behind the 9-11 disaster? I don't know how many of you conspiracy nuts have stepped foot out of this country, but I meet a lot of people that are (Oh, how to put this delicately?) "at odds" with Americans. For good reason - I might add. Why don't you conspiracy nuts look within yourself and other Americans that are still conspiring to harm others in the world? Bunk - ashland, or - May 25th, 5:24 AM More and more people are realizing what a complete lie the official account is. The twin towers and wtc 7 were very obviously demolished using explosives--anyone who gives the subject even an hour's worth of honest consideration can see that--unless of course they simply don't want to. Some people are comforted by thinking that the "bad people" are evil muslim terrorists and that they are being protected from them by their brave leaders. Others are more responsible than that. Critical Thinker - boston, ma - May 25th, 8:37 AM Oregon Bluejay: Dear Rational Thinker: Please give your rational thoughts on the mighty U.S.Air Force falling flat on its butt on 9/11. Could you also rationally explain how the collapse of 2-U.S-made highrises defied laws of physics on that same day. While you're at it, if you voted for Bush (twice) could you please explain the rationale behind THAT rational thinking. I eagerly await enlightenment via your oh-so-rationally firing synapses...Please ease me out of my obvious stupidity slowly!HELP EC - AZ - May 25th, 9:25 AM I must confess that I've completely turned around in my thinking and have joined the masses blindly embracing the official conspiracy theory of 9/11! For example, this unanswered question for the President by the 9/11 families should be forgotten: 15. Please explain why you remained at the Sarasota, Florida, Elementary School for a press conference after you had finished listening to the children read, when as a terrorist target, your presence potentially jeopardized the lives of the children? Eloy Gonzalez II ( [email protected] ) - Edinburg, TX - May 25th, 9:36 AM If 911 Truthers seem like crackpots to you, then check out these nutjobs at www.patriotsquestion911.com. If you swallow www.debunking911.com, then read this review of Debunking 911 Debunking at http://911truthstore.com/911truth/product.php?productid=11279&cat=0&page=1 Bob Simmons - New York, NY - May 25th, 10:04 AM A lot of talk about conspiracy theorists in the comments. But, wait a minute. Who are the conspiracy theorists here. Those who question the official conspiracy theory(that's exactly what it is)or those who are gullible enough to believe in it. 9/11 has been used as a pretext to start the "war on terror" and wars against Iraq and Afghanistan and possibly against Iran. 100 100's people have died as a result. Surely the events on 9/11 deserves scrutiny? Olof - sthlm, sweden - May 25th, 10:28 AM Mossad did it. Of course it needed an entire U.S. Air Force to fall asleep, so there is complicity there. Pakistan intelligence helped with the patsy element. Why the media forgot about the 60 Israeli "Art Students" arrested days after 9/11 with videos of the event is beyond me. But then again the media is controlled in corporate boardrooms or in the offices of the Council on Foreign Relations. Prove me wrong. Daniel Ashton - Talent, Oregon - May 25th, 11:48 AM Feeling uneasy??? - exercise your rights. "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it" - Declaration of Independence James - Ashland, OR - May 25th, 1:55 PM God you Americans are stupid. I knew on 9-11 that it was a controlled demolition.Read PNAC they even tell you they need a new Pearl Harbor.Wake up before it is too late. Ginger ( [email protected] ) - Goochland, Va. - May 25th, 2:08 PM It's amazing to me how so many uneducated people can use the "inside job" theory as the answer to 9-11. They repeat the little bits of speculation that they have found on other conspiracy sites and talk shows and claim that planes couldn't have been the reason the towers went down. I would be curious if they checked the other side of the story to find some engineers and other professionals that tell us they could have caused the buildings to fall. I do not like Bush, but he didn't do it. lala - ashlans,OR - May 25th, 7:53 PM Oregon Bluejay: Uh... Dear Rational Thinker: Where are you and your oh-so-rational explanations? Hello? EC - AZ - May 25th, 10:18 PM Elizabeth Hasselback explained it on TV.She said that although steel melts at 2700F and jet fuel burns at 800F, steel is weakened at 270F.This happened to me when I cooked a pizza,I preheated my oven to 400F,and drove to the 7/11 for beer.When I pulled into my apartment's driveway,the 47 story building had collapsed into its own footprint and another large building 300 yards down the street collapsed 7 hours later.All the firemen later died from radiation burns and from breathing rdioactive dust Max Fortres ( [email protected] ) - Langley, Va - May 26th, 10:57 AM An inside job of course.. and for Bush and Cheney what is a few thousand American lives to get that WAR they deem essential to get to that vast treasure of OIL within Iraq? John Walker - Tucson, AZ - May 26th, 11:06 AM see post March 24: The government did not just let the events on 9/11 happen, they worked very hard to insure it would happen. The CIA in a carefully crafted conspiracy hid the names of 2 al Qaeda terrorists, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi from the FBI for 21 months. But what is worse, when this huge conspiracy fell a part on August 22, 2001, the CIA then sabotaged the FBI investigation and search for al-Mihdhar, even when they knew of this huge attack in the US. See www.eventson911.com Palo Alto - Palo Alto, CA - May 26th, 11:47 AM To summarize: The CIA knows after April 2001 a huge attack will take place in the US that will kill thousands, yet they continue to hide the names Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi from the FBI, even when they know Hazmi is in the US, and know Mihdhar has a visa for the US. They knew by hiding these names it will make it all but impossible for the FBI to prevent this attack. When they find out Mihdhar and Hazmi are both in the US, they sabotage the FBI search for them. see www.eventson911.com Palo Alto - Palo Alto, CA - May 26th, 11:57 AM Here's a conspiracy for ya! A. Scot Bolsinger was hired as editor of the Tidings to run it into the ground so the people and advertisers of Ashland would BEG the Mail Tribune to produce a zoned edition out of Medford to replace a horrendously crappy Tidings. Master Bolsinger & Tidings Crew: Mission Accomplished! Oregon Bluejay - Ashland - May 26th, 6:57 PM OR Bluejay: What a splendid display of rational thinking!! No wonder you swallow everything you're told by the national media and the current administration. I rest my case, and I'll quit soliciting your obvious ignorance; you CAN'T enlighten me (I was afraid of that...). EC - OR - May 28th, 7:59 AM "Ashland residents, perhaps more so than the nation as a whole, aren't satisfied with the official account..." Once again, Ashland, thinking it's all that and then some... gee, the rest of us are just sitting around picking our noses while Ashland leads the charge against the nation's crime... duh... tells us, what should we think next Ashland?? "...Perhaps more than the nation as a whole," Spare me oh self-righteous residents on the hill!! The Tidings DOES have an editor, doesn't it?? Karen - Talent,OR - May 28th, 9:17 PM @KAREN - I live and work in Ashland! I,my friends and neighbors do NOT believe in the 911 conspiracy. I apologize for the ADT lack of reporting the truth and I do not know where they get the odacity to report false information and speak on behalf Ashland residents. Please note...ASHLANDERS DO-NOT BELIEVE THE 911 propaganda. PLEASE DO NOT BELIEVE THE LIES ADT SPEWS. AGAIN, I APOLOGIZE FOR THE ADT'S LACK OF PROFESSIONAL JOURNALISM. ASHLAND IS BEAUTIFUL PLACE TO LIVE AND WORK...THAT IS TRUE! Ashlander 97520 - SORRY FOR ADT's LIES - May 29th, 10:03 AM Thank you Daily Tidings for being real in a milieu that sometimes ( occasionally, rarely ) clamors for B.S. thomas lear grace - ashland - May 29th, 11:21 AM I happen to live in Ashland and I have suspected foul play since the beginning. I'd believe the same even if I lived in Crawford, TX. Geography has little to do with it. There are none so blind as those who will not see, and being an Ashlander is not a cure for willful ignorance. Follow the money - Ashland - May 29th, 11:25 AM For anyone in Ashland who would really like to know exactly happened that allowed the events on 9/11 to occur, a new book, "Prior Knowledge of 9/11", details how and why the CIA deliberately allowed theses events to take place. This book details every instance and every person at the CIA and FBI who was involved when the CIA deliberately hid from the FBI the names of two terrorists who were to take part in the attack on 9/11. See www.eventson911.com for details on how to obtain this book. Palo Alto - Los Altos, CA - May 29th, 2:34 PM Ashlanders...seems to imply all of us. Another stupid comment by the Tidings to make headlines. Pluto - Ashland - May 29th, 8:58 PM Would the scientists and experts in the room please stand up? Hmm... There seems to be a distinct lack of anyone with any expertise here! Why is it that the scientific community feels confident in stating that the official account is mostly accurate? It's because they know what they're talking about; They've studied it at length. They've already disproved these conspiracy claims, yet they keep surfacing! Are they ALL in on the conspiracy!? That's lunacy. Who are you going to trust?? thinker - Talent, OR - May 30th, 9:12 AM I say "mostly" accurate, because we will never have a complete picture of EVERYTHING that happened that day, that would be impossible. Can we explain everything about the sinking of the titanic (I thought it was "unsinkable"!), or the moon landing (looks fake to me), or any significant event in history? No. The power of "conspiracy theories" is that they're by nature hard to disprove. Any discrepancy can be sited as "proof", and that's not science. It might sound like it but it's not. thinker - talent, OR - May 30th, 9:22 AM In a WTC tower, every floor below needs to be strong enough to hold up every floor above it. That means as you go from top to bottom, the collapse needs to punch through progressively stronger resistance. Yet the collapse accelerated as opposed to slowing down. The concrete powder coming down on top is wafting into the air as dust and is applying little downward force. What is the mechanism of destruction? Who, we can disagree on, but the laws of physics must apply no matter who did this. Don - Mill Valley, Ca. - May 30th, 2:59 PM Prior post: In a WTC tower, every floor below needs to be strong enough... This applies only to the outside and core columns. These were bolted or welded to each floor with enough safety margin to hold 5 X this weight of 6,000 tons, meaning these connections could hold 30,000 tons. When the outside columns buckled out, the weight of the structure above the break fell onto the very next floor below. These structures weighted 120,000 and 180,000 tons easily exceeding the 30,000 ton support. Palo Alto - Los Altos, CA - May 30th, 4:39 PM Palo Alto - Even if the top floors took out the bottom floors, you admit the core columns were strong enough to resist. Why was there no central core visible or standing at any time during or after the collapse? The concrete shredded evenly all the way down. This doesn't make sense to me. And why the free fall speed of the collapse if top floors are bumping into bottom floors each providing 30,000 tons of resistance? Seems WTC would have come down at a steady or even slowing speed. Don - Mill Valley, Ca. - May 31st, 12:24 PM Prior Post: Seems WTC would have come down at a steady or even slowing speed... Just the opposite, the 30,000 tons support was eliminated almost instantly by the momentum of the falling structure, having no effect on the speed. What did have an effect was the momentum, mv = mv, or 180K tons*v1 = 186K tons*v2. The downward speed of the falling structure was reduced by about 3% at each floor. Gravity has an acceleration of 32 ft/sec/sec, so downward velocity in 4 seconds would equal ~128 ft/sec. Palo Alto - Los Altos, CA - May 31st, 1:33 PM Palo Alto - The big unanswered question aside from the floors themselves is what brought down the structural steel central core. 186K tons would simply bounce off of that. Secondly, much of the mass of the building was falling away from the sides of the building, so there is a question about how much material was actually coming directly down on top. Third, the cores contained things like service elevators which means even less concrete "falling" in the intense grid of the central core. Don - Mill Valley, Ca. - June 1st, 11:57 AM Prior post: "what brought down the structural steel central core". The 180,000 ton structure feel right onto the core. The twenty/thirty floors above the where the towers broke were welded onto this upper part of the core, this smashed the core below the break to smithereens. When the towers fell the intersection between the 120/180 ton structures and the rest of these buildings completely disintegrated as the buildings came down. This was clear in the all of the TV images of the collapse. Palo Alto - Los Altos, CA - June 2nd, 11:42 AM Proir Post; "much of the mass of the building was falling away from the sides of the building, so there is a question about how much material was actually coming directly down on top." As the building collasped, the air pressure must have been enormous, 12 feet reduced to 1/10 of an inch or less would equal over 100 atmospheres, this pressure would throw out dust and the outside columns, but each structure weighted over 660,000 tons, so the weight of this material was just a small fraction. Palo Alto - Los Altos, CA - June 2nd, 11:55 AM P.A. - I imagined the bombed out ruins of German cities during WWII. We tried hard to level those cities, but flyovers show that it is very difficult to flatten a building even when bombing the heck out of it. One Arab airplane bomb comes along and creates a complete, total, and highly symmetrical shredding of a super strong building and in a weird, smooth disintegration never seen before. Not once but 3X! "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence,