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OLIVER GYARFAS, SR., Q1; §_l_._
V.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, pl al.
B}aintiffs First Request For Production
" and Inspection of Documents
3
Responsive Documents from
San Antonio file 89B-SA-38851
SQQQ 60% :29 D03 ns
excised copy
E El
4/
QBLEQION COQES
Information which is properly classified pursuant to
Executive Order, the disclosure of which could reasonably
be expected to cause damage to the national security or the
conduct of the Government's international relations.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to reveal the
identity of an informant.
Information obtained from a foreign government or
international organization where there is an agreement or
understanding that the information received will be treated
confidentially.
Information protected under the Grand Jury Secrecy provision-
Rule 6 e! of the federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to identify a
source of information, where confidentiality is expressed or
implied.
Administrative file numbers.
The Law Enforcement Privilege The disclosure of this
information could cause harm to, impede, impair, or hinder an
investigation and/or an investigative interest of the FBI.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to compromise
the effectiveness of an investigative method or technique.
Information; the disclosure of which would divulge opinions,
recommendations, and advice generated in the decisionemaking
process of the government.
Information, the disclosure of which is prohibited by federal
statute with citation to the appropriate statute!.
Information protected under the attorney-client privilege.
Information or material protected under the attorney work
product privilege.
Information which is not relevant to the matters at issue in
the litigation.
Information originating with another government agency which
must be referred to that agency for review. The use of this
code does not waive any applicable codes which may be applied
by the originating agency.
Other, as specified.
Information, the disclosure of which would be an unwarranted
invasion of the personal privacy of an individual not party
to the litigation.
.
L
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
92
TAPE #234
4/l¬/93
0200 0245
__. J
/
Tape#234! L 2
STEVE: -- was that while here there was
numerous times where the phone would ring where he was
right in the phone room where the phone was, and he saw
and heard about the death threats right while he was
there. Seriously.
DICK: Again, I'm not going to question that.
But I'll tell you, part of the newspaper articles that
I saw today where there was something that DeGuerin had
mentioned about
he's fearful of
in prison.
STEVE
even said --
DICK:
was read in the
STEVE
i
DICK:
STEVE-
' DICK:David's reluctance to come out, because
what might happen to a child molester
I -- that's nonsense. He's never
Well, it was -- I'm telling you what
- said in the paper.
He's never said anything like that.
Well, all I'm telling you --
You know what I, I think --
-- now hold it. He said something
about Bubba to me himself. -
STEVE: Well, no, that was me. That's a word
that I used.
DICK: Well, it was a used -- word David used
also.
STEVE: Well, that's news then, Dick.
' - 3
Because I don't, I don't know that.
DICK: You ask him about it. Because I, I
remember very distinctly him mentioning that.
STEVE: Okay, I -- it's not that I disagree.
I mean I don't know. I'm -- I was -- I'm saying I
never heard that before.
DICK: Well --
STEVE: But I mean I have talked to you about
that or one of you, I don't remember who. Because when
you were talking about coming out. And that even
doesn't change my decision about coming, that's --
DICK: It may not change yours, but it has an
impact on what David does. And there's no question --
STEVE: I don't believe it. No.
DICK: Well --
- STEVE: Knowing him I don't believe that.
Because I've been traveling with him already.
DICK: Steve, I've been doing this job --
STEVE: He's gone into --
DICK: -- for 22 years, okay?
STEVE: But Dick, he's gone into an arena
many times where it's nothing but you're taking your
life into your own hands. Seriously. Or putting in,
in someone e1se's.
DICK: You know, let me ask you a question.
You know --
._ Q.
4
STEVE: Sure.
DICK: -- you've got all this faith in David
Koresh, okay, and this belief in what he has to say.
But yet here's a man who -- here's a man that involves
himself sexually with children. Now you tell me.
STEVE: That's not true.
DICK: A 12-year-old or, or --
STEVE: It is not true.
DICK: -- okay, a 14- or 15-year-old if we
can all I think deal with that. Because we've all
dealt with that number in the past, okay? How, how can
you - I don't understand how you can accept what he
has to say as it relates to religion but yet on the
other hand you live the way you do in there and give
all your assets, your worldly assets to include your
wife --
.: STEVE: I have not given my worldly assets.
DICK: Well, many others have in there.
Maybe you haven't.
STEVE: No they, they really haven't.
DICK: Oh.
STEVE: Do you want us to give our bank
accounts of all the individuals here? They wouldn't
even mind doing that. My bank accounts, my credit
rating, my -- seriously.
DICK: Well, how about, how about the wives
O ~ O
S
of some, several of the people in there then.
STEVE: What about the wives of the guys
here?
DICK: Well, are they not -- do they not make
them available for David --
STEVE: Not, not so.
DICK: -- and David's desires?
STEVE: Not so.
DICK: Not so. Not at all.
STEVE: So that's what I'm telling you. All
of this came - what about animal sacrifices? Children
sacrifices? What about abuse to children, about
beating children? All of this came from a guy by the
name of Mark Broe phonetic sp.!, and we totally ignore
it for the first 2 years. I discussed in the early
days when Mark was doing this about - with David, I
wanéed to personally go after him for slander. I
wanted to get a libel suit against him. I talked to
Wayne about it and David says no. Leave it be. God
has not directed, so let Mark do what Mark needs or
wants to do.
DICK: If I remember David making a comment,
he said what woman wouldn't want to be with the Lamb of
God or be the wife of the Lamb of God? If I remember I
think those were pretty much his exact words.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. He's mouthed that over and
O ' O
6
over again.
DICK: And, and such things as I love all my
wives, whoever they are. I mean things of that nature.
srsvs: Right.
DICK: Now that really tells me that this man
is deeply religious and all the things that he does
are, you know, that that, those kinds of things are
acceptable to you, Steve?
STEVE: Dick, what you need to understand is
maybe it's a stumbling block of words to find out how
honest people are to begin with.
DICK: Oh, okay.
STEVE: Well, no, wait now. Wait now. I
mean let's take a look at the facts of the Bible those
that did do the, the very writings. Like you can go
back to Moses. Moses was a murderer before anything
elsé and he --
' DICK: Steve --
STEVE: wait, wait, wait, wait.
DICK: Let's, let's deal with the here and
present, okay?
STEVE: That's what we are dealing with.
DICK: No, let's deal with the present.
STEVE: No, no, no. You're talking about
David. So Isaiah is a prophet and --
DICK: Well, relate it to what's going on
~ ~.. . I
7
now.
STEVE: -- and almost 2 bil-- I am.
That's -- I am going to. But just let me give you a
couple examples, not to get off in an extreme, detailed
thing.
But, but to say that Isaiah ran around nude
and barefoot for 3 years as it says in Isaiah 20.
You've got -- you can look all the way through the
Bible, Micah did the same thing in chapter 1. You can
take a look at Hosea. He's told by God to marry not
one but two prostitutes. Who's going to ever accept
him as a prophet? So this is weird behavior.
Extremely weird behavior.
Let, let me start giving you example after
example about even Christ and his not being too cool.
If you look in John chapter, I believe it is -- I
shoéld know it right off. 1 think it's chapter 2.
You'll find out about Christ casting out the money
changers. Goes right into a church or let's say a
religious building and starts doing something with
violence. Read about it. With violence.
' I mean when you stop to take some time to
really look at the Bible and even in the, the language
employed by God to the prophets, you'll find words like
shit used frequently. But you know, in the old archaic
English it's dung. But what is dung? But all the way
O O~ f 8
through the Bible you've got in Ezekiel, chapter 23 it
talks about women in the final days having a love for
men that have dicks the size of horses. Do you know
that's in the Bible, Dick?
DICK: No, I didn't know that.
STEVE: It is. I mean I'll give you
references. You go back and read that.
DICK: But I'm not going to quarrel with
that. I'm not going to quarrel with that. You say
that it's true --
STEVE: But why, why is the Bible so -- okay,
now look. So the, the whole thing of what I'm really
saying is here God's always done things contrary to
what man thinks that God should be or how God should
work. And it's always to find out who has a love for
truth to begin with.
Q Second Thessalonians talks about everybody is
going to be damned or perish if they didn't have a love
for truth. So God will send strong delusion that
they'll believe a lie instead of the truth. And that,
that they all might be damned that did not love the
truth. That's exactly what it says there. Or
paraphrasing.
DICK: Well, you know, let me tell you
something. David --
STEVE: Sure.
9
DICK: -- Koresh has - David Koresh is a
manipulative person that is, is very strong in his
religious beliefs. And he has surrounded himself with
a number of people that have not or, or for years have
looked for something other than what they found, and
they found something in him that they've looked for.
Some people that are not strong willed, most of them, a
lot of them.
STEVE: You don't know me then.
DICK: Well, I'm not saying you. I'm saying
a lot of those folks.
STEVE: I've been a debater all my life. I
mean I love to debate. When I even met him, I'm a type
of person that you lay out what you have, but then you
give me opportunity to jump all over you. And that's
the way I am --
é DICK: Okay, I'll lay out --
STEVE: -- to this day --
DICK: Let me lay out something for you.
STEVE: I'm very --
DICK: You can jump all over this.
STEVE: These people are the same way. Very
independent. Very self-centered. Very -- seriously.
DICK: You want a challenge. You know you've
mentioned a challenge. I'll give you a challenge.
STEVE: Okay, what's that?
O Q
10
DICK; Get yourself out here, go in court and
support and, and defend yourself in court against the
charges.
STEVE: That's coming.
DICK: You can do that.
STEVE: Dick, that's coming. But I --
DICK: When, when does this
indiscernible! --
STEVE: You fail to understand I fear -- I
honestly can tell you. It's no joke. It's not a lie.
It's not an exaggeration. I fear the God that David
has exposed through the writings of the prophets and
all the writers, the apostles, all of that. I see a
very plain, clear picture. But you or no one else that
I've ever talked to since this happened has allowed me
to develop the picture that I see. And I think that
you_§ould understand me better that I'm not -- it's not
an exaggeration. It's not an excuse. It's not a lie.
You can tell that when I come stand out there
unarmed, and there's a Bradley there, and Byron Sage is
inside the Bradley. I don't even see his face. Or
like distraction grenades are thrown at me. I didn't
give a damn if they were hand grenades. I really
didn't. It doesn't -- when you believe in something,
seriously, I do, Dick. I do. That is the reason I
haven't walked out. Not because I don't trust or
C Q
11
believe in the system.
DICK: No, let me, let me offer something.
STEVE: That's secondary, that's, that's
irrelevant to me.
DICK: I've done this job for 22 years,
and --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: -- I've heard every excuse for not
confronting the truth that can be offered, okay?
And --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: - I'm hearing one from you, and I'm
hearing one from David. Now I, I know you have strong
religious convictions, okay? But you couple that with
this reluctance to come out and this fear of, of going
before the court, and that's what puts you where you1.
areif
Q STEVE: I don't have a fear of going before
the court.
DICK: Yes, you do. Yes, you do.
STEVE: I do not.
DICK: You --
STEVE: Dick, I don't.
DICK: -- absolutely do.
STEVE: Okay, say what you will. You will
find out that's not true at all. You will find that
O D
12
out.
What I do fear is the God of the Bible.
That's what I fear. And if it wasn't for that, if it
wasn't for that whole, what I understand, what I see
clearly. I mean no question there is some fear and
apprehension like I've told you with the court system.
But nowhere near in measurement to what I see -- wait,
wait, no --
DICK: Well, I can, I can understand that. I
can understand that.
STEVE: Okay, that's what I'm saying.
DICK: Most of us fear --
STEVE: The one -- Dick, the one overpowers
the other. Obviously.
DICK: Fine. But you've got to deal with
this. .You've got to deal with reality first, okay?
; STEVE: Well, to me this is reality. That's
what I'm trying to explain to you.
DICK: You've got to deal with the present,
okay? The present is that you have to come out and,
and get this issue resolved.
STEVE: But, but you, you -- I don't have to
come out.
DICK: Oh, you don't. Well, now that's --
STEVE: That's the point.
DICK: -- now we're getting down to the
o~ 0»
13
bottom line. You don't have to come out. That's,
that's what you're saying.
STEVE:
know. Let's say
coming out.
DICK:
STEVE:
I believe we are
and --
DICK:
STEVE:
choose --
DICK:
God also?
ETEVE:
h DICK:
as his God?
é
STEVE:
that's where theNo, let's, let's be real here. You
-- now he says, his God says we're
Um-hum.
And I believe that too. I really do.
coming out. I believe that well
Why do you keep --
-- carnally -- wait. Carnally I
-- saying his God? Isn't that your
Yes.
Well, why do you keep referring to it
Because to let you know clearly
information that I have, right from
the beginning what's been shown to me from that Bible
has been so beyond anything that a scholar has shown.
And I've asked him where have you got this information,
David? Where did you get this from? Did you get it
from Oxford, Harvard? What school of learning did you
go to? What institute? Well, well, he didn't. Well,
that's interesting. So where did you get it?
as 0»I 14
I believe there is two powers in this world.
I believe there is the forces of Satan with his fallen
evil angels, and I believe on the other end there's God
by the Holy Spirit and the good angels. Spiritual
beings that inter-react with you and myself. I believe
this.
So I believe that he's either inspired by one
side or the other. There's no in between. Either he's
totally deluded, he's a pawn of Satan, and Satan has
done a lot of harm through and by this man, or he is of
God. There's no in between for me, Dick.
DICK: It's either or there, right?
STEVE: Pardon?
DICK: It's either or.
STEVE: Yeah. That's, that's clear. So for
me because I've listened and taken him back to the test
of Scripture again and again and again and ad
infinitum. I mean I am -- that's why I am here. I see
the information clearly. I don't see another source in
this world, religious or non-religious, that has shown
me how I got here, where I'm going, why all the
troubles in the world, why death, why, why some
innocent children die of AIDS or this disease, that
disease, hit by a car. Why the unfairness of the world
of man to man and, and some have all the amenabilities
and creature comforts that there are and others don't.
Q. Q.
15
Why? I don't know. But the best answers for me, Dick,
have come from that book. And especially the way he
has shown it. And I've asked him where did you get it.
Well, from his God.
See, I don't know God, Dick. I can tell you
right now I don't know Jesus Christ of 2,000 years ago.
I don't know God who sits on a throne. I do know
there's a book here that says something about that God.
I don't know him personally. I don't know if he's ever
heard my prayers.
DICK: well, how is God going to react or
judge you and others in connection with this event of
the 28th?
STEVE: How is he going to judge us for that?
DICK: Yeah.
" STEVE: I could start right now giving you
'.
chapter after chapter of the Bible that God --
DICK: I'm not going to --
STEVE: I'm talking about defending ones
life --
DICK: Well, you can defend -- okay. But
how, how is God going to look at this event in the
death of not only the agents but the people inside?
How, how is God going to look at that event?
STEVE: Well, number one, God wants you to
understand his will. And his will -- there are people
C Q.
16
that are dying every day that are being shot, that are
being run over by automobiles, that are dying of
disease. God hates it all. He would like everybody in
this world to take note of a way to get out of this --
DICK: No, what do you mean he hates it all.
I've always understood that that was God's will if, if
somebody died in that fashion. Isn't that God's will?
STEVE: Well, definitely God is in control of
even the devil himself. So all that is happening is,
is most certainly allowed by God. And what is the
purpose and reason for that? That's what we've been
wanting to show to you. Not to tell you, giving an
opinion or a theory.
DICK: Well, do you have any confidence in
man's law at all?
STEVE: I still do to a very small degree.
Butflike I was telling I believe it was Rick today I've
alréady seen by my own experience in life many judges
who, it's like their decision depends upon what they
had to eat that breakfast or that morning. I, I have
seen many that are actually jokers that are sitting in
that seat. I'm serious.
I've - not for myself. I had a friend that
had a ticket. I went in with him. He went to take --
before it came up to his time I saw the judge handling
other cases, certain judges in California. And the way
om Q»
17
he responded, I mean I
time and time again.
Man, they --
All of us are fallible.
that have gotten away,
that have been friedwas not impressed. I've seen it
just like myself I'm fallible.
So there are many criminals
and there's many innocent people
And so I mean what would happen to me? I
don't know. But I mean I -- that's all in God's hands
also. But first of
this point of time,
do that. But if he
that's exactly whatall, if God says don't leave at
then I can't do that. I will not
said that we are coming out, and
the statement is and, and from the
beginning but it's been a time element, well that -- I
myself am waiting. I really am.
And I realize that it would have been easier
for mehif I'd have come on out, come out the first day,
Dick. But it's because I fear God that I haven't. I
J
mean --
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: -- ultimately I have to face it,
don't I? Don't, I? But I --
DICK: Well, certainly you do. But you know
what, Steve? Listen.
STEVE: Yes. I agree. Dick, I agree.
DICK: Let, let me tell you something.
STEVE: Go ahead.
92
1 s
DICK: You know, you're talking to law
enforcement officers here that have --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: - been here for, have been on this
job for many, many, many years, okay?
STEVE : Okay .
DICK: Again, I will give you that you're a
strong, religious person, okay. You have these
convictions, and so does David. However, my belief is
that this reluctance to come out, this whole thing is
driven primarily by your fear of facing the court
system and having to answer to the events of the 28th
of February. Okay, that's my personal belief.
STEVE: It won't work, Dick. You can say
what you want and I'm going -- number one, that's,
that's not a truth. And number two, your saying that
to me does not change anything.
A} I am telling you for a fact whatever I am or
not or whatever I have been from birth, one thing is
for sure that it's not because I am afraid of the
system. Oh, I'm apprehensive. And I suspect the
worst. I really do. I hope for the best, but I expect
the worst.
DICK: Didn't your lawyers - I don't know
what your lawyers told you --
STEVE: Oh, I think they think they can win
0*
19
it and get me out scott free. Seriously, I think they,
they believe that. They've more or -- they've just
about come out and said so. So I, I believe that
that's how they see it.
But at the same time, I've told them that
even though I think that they're probably right because
especially in my case being where I was, what happened
and my knowledge at that time and so forth. I don't, I
don't know what I'd get out of it. But I can't imagine
unless the system is so corrupt and, and the agency of
the ATP and some of these other agencies are so
powerful that they want to make an example of us which
could be possible.
I mean whatever, I mean if I if there is a
God, if he can't take care of me, or if he does want me
in that situation, if the, if the worst thing ever
hapgFned where I being innocent of, of February 28th,
got some kind of a death sentence at the very worst
even for some reason or another that I could never
understand, well then so be it. Because there -- if
there is a God that's what he would have willed. If
there's not one, well I would have died anyway in this,
this crazy world.
DICK: Well, again --
STEVE: So as far as I'm concerned --
DICK: -- that same challenge to you. I
0- 1»
20
offer you the challenge and everybody else that's
talked to you has offered that same challenge to you
repeatedly over these many days. That is to come out
and tell your story, go to court and get resolved.
STEVE: I'm planning on doing that, Dick.
DICK: I know you're planning on doing it.
I'm planning on doing a lot of things too. But I want
to deal with the present not down the line -- _
STEVE: But I -- that's where you and I
differ. Because all through the Bible -- all the Bible
is prophecy. It deals in the future.
My life is based upon not something that
happened 2,000 years ago. That's history, Dick. I'm
talking about the future. It's called prophecy. The
spirit, the testimony of Jesus it says in the Bible is
the spirit of prophecy. What is hope until, unless,
when something has not happened?
é Like in Romans 8 it talks about what true
hope is. You can't hope for something that's already
taken place. So my hope is based on what all the
prophets say is taking --
DICK: Steve, on this, on this earth at this
point in time you have to deal with this issue. You
cannot deny that it happened.
STEVE: I know I do. Dick, I know it. And I
haven't --
o~ or
21
DICK: You can't deny that it's happened.
STEVE: -- I haven't denied that it -- I know
there are four agents dead and that there are six dead
on our side and four wounded and that there were a
number of wounded on that side. I -- and it's
extremely regrettable. And I know that it's got to be
taken care of.
And I, and I know that it's not a fair
system, because that's why you've still got ATF agents
out running around, and they can cuss us out still like
they did the day they showed up here. A lot of these
people in this building heard the language, the foul
language come out of their mouths. And it was clear
that they meant to do harm and business when they came
here. And, and I know that for a fact.
5 Whether it ever comes out or it's believed or
noté I -- to me, I know that God knows. And I know
what I heard. And I know that some of these inno--
all these innocent, like especially even the children
and so forth, they got to see and hear. And, and it --
believe me, I don't want to even get into that whole
thing.
But the whole thing is it does - I know that
it's not a fair system. I'm hoping to get some
fairness, and I plan on meeting the system. But
irregardless, number one, before February 28th, I'm
O* O»
here for a reason, and that reason is totally based on22
God's word.
DICK: Yeah, but nobody's quarreling with
that.
STEVE: No, but at the same time the one that
showed it to me I didn't have the ability on my own,
Dick, to learn and understand the Bible. I really
didn't. I have spent -- my, my family has spent on my
behalf from a small child on between myself and them I
have spent at least with them $60,000 for my education.
So that's a lot of money that has gone into education.
And what I learned from him in just a matter of days
surpassed what I learned all those years from men in,
in different schooling situations --
DICK: Steve, if you, if you believe all
that, then you know what? I really I -- you know,
yougre not a -- you know, you're a bright guy. Put
some money into education. You obviously have some,
some good thoughts. And if you can believe that this
man is what you say that he is, then friend, you know
you better re-examine some of these things. Because
this man is a manipulative, he's a con-man.
STEVE: How -- well, how so? Give me some
examples.
DICK: How so? Ah, man. You know --
STEVE: I mean what do you have --
" ~ ""
DICK: How so.23
STEVE: -- for facts? No, let's -- facts.
Now you're a person that deals with facts.
DICK: He's tried to manipulate this
thing since the outset of this thing.
STEVE: How do you see that?
DICK:
occasion, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: First of all, we were to play
minute tape -- 48-minute tape, I'm sorry.
STEVE: Fifty-six or fifty-eight --whole
Well, how do I see it? On the first
this 45-
DICK: Fifty-seven, fifty-eight is what it
actually ended up to be.
STEVE: Right.
- DICK: And then people
then; - -
STEVE: Right.
DICK: -- that is done. We took him
word.
STEVE: So did I.
DICK: And so did you. We did as he
and as he agreed. He didn't, he didn't follow
his agreement. Okay?
STEVE: Can I, can I respond to that
real quick? And it's, it's in your --were coming out. But
at his
asked
up on
just
" , 24
DICK: I know. You're waiting for his God.
STEVE: -- favor. No, no. No, no. It's in
your favor. It really -- I'll be -- I'm going to tell
you the way I think and work. Even then it unsettled
me also, Dick.
But -- and the only thing that I grabbed onto
at that time when it comes to well, how do I perceive
it, what I grabbed onto is how I remember and have seen
him work in the past. I mean with that same God in
other situations when the word has been wait, and it
has always come out better than I've ever dreamed.
Seriously, even though it might be a day later or it
may be a couple hours later. That's the only -- that's
what I had to base my --
Eut I was as a human you must understand I
was annoyed when he said one thing and even for myself.
What's going on here? I don't want to be embarrassed.
I'm}used to, you know, when you give your word to
someone I'm used to following through on that myself.
And so has he --
DICK: But he, he apparently is not.
STEVE: No, no. But he has been. That's
what I'm saying. So --
DICK: Oh, this is the first time that that's
ever happened? Is that what you're saying to me?
STEVE: Yes, it is. In a, in a situation --
Q ~ Q
25
DICK: What do you suppose caused that?
STEVE: Pardon?
DICK: What do you suppose caused this
reluctance?
STEVE: I don't know. Because I -- you got
to remember I was there when he was praying when the
stretcher was brought in. I'm telling you, everybody
here was convinced for a fact, they were dressed, ready
to go out. I was. I was to be the last one walking
out. He was the, you know, he was to go out remember,
first --
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- or something like that. I mean I
was ready. I was one of the guys that walked up and
got the stretcher or the -- yeah, the stretcher and
brought it back even. I was ready to go out.
Eveéybody here was. And then he started praying. He
wanted to be clear. He started to pray and went on and
on. And it was extremely agonizing. I mean it's -
something like you read what happened to Christ of
2,000 years ago and --
DICK: Well, now hold it. Listen. You know,
that's not -- let's don't talk about what happened to
Christ in the same breath with David Koresh, okay? You
know, that's - he didn't come out for his own reasons,
okay? Now you can put it down to prayer. You can put
0~ 0»
26
it down to God speaking to David, whatever it is you
want to put it down to.
However, the fact of the matter is he gave us
his word, and he reneged on that word as a flatout
lie. And there's no other way to characterize it. It
is a flat-out lie. In fact, David told me as much when
I asked him that very same question while I was talking
to him on the first --
STEVE: When you say he told you as much,
what do you mean? What did he tell you?
DICK: That, that he, that he flat-out did
not keep his word. He broke his word. He broke his
promise.
STEVE: He, he said that to you?
DICK: Absolutely.
~ STEVE: I've never heard him say anything
like; that.
DICK: Well, I'll be happy to play it for
you. I would be happy to play it for you.
STEVE: Please do. Please do.
DICK: He did. He admitted that he did not
keep his word.
STEVE: I've never heard that before.
DICK: Well --
STEVE: I wish you would play it for me.
DICK: You're not - are you, are you calling
27
me a liar? I don't think you are. You're just not
sure that you heard it.
STEVE: No, no. You said you, you just said
you would play
DICK:
play it or not
he admitted to
did not follow
occasion. All
Thisit for me.
Well, I, I have it. Whether I will
I don't know. But I'm telling you that
me in the conversations that he in fact
up on his word. That is only one
right?
man is a master manipulator. He does
things in there because he feels that he can control
what happens in this situation to, to his benefit. You
think we don't
dealing with --understand that? I mean you're not
STEVE: I believe you --
, DICK: -- rookies here.
I"
;. STEVE: No, no. I know that. And I believe
J
you believe that, Dick. I believe that. And I think
that from your
seem from yourvantage point that's the way it does
vantage point.
DICK: Yeah, it certainly does seem from my
vantage point.
STEVE: But that's what I mean. If you were
a listener you
then you could
be able to.would, you'd get to hear something. And
evaluate and judge it. But you'll never
O~ O»
28
DICK: I have listened to it, and I have
talked to him specifically -- _
STEVE: You really haven't, Dick. Come on.
You really haven't. V
DICK: Steve, listen. You know what? You
can say that I haven't listened. But we have listened,
more than myself, many of us have listened for days on
end to this man.
STEVE: Well, okay. One thing that I'm
interested in is that conversation between himself and
Clint. Listen to that. Listen to the, the dialogue
back and forth. And give me a reaction to it.
Seriously. I'd, I'd really be interested. Tell me
where the manipulative parts or points are about the
conversation or what you detected --
,. DICK: No, I'm not talking about that
partcular -- I didn't listen to it, okay?
Y STEVE: No, no. But, but that's what
David -- every time he talks to any one of you people
that's what he wants to do. How, how do you see he --
do you see he is using the Bible there even to -- I
mean why do you think he spends so much time talking
with you about those issues? Can you sincerity in what
he's doing? Do you -- how do you see that like that
whole conversation?
DICK: I just told you how I saw it. Not
C Q»
. 29
that conversation. I'm talking about other
conversations we've had.
STEVE: But I wish you would listen to it so
you'd give --
DICK: Okay, let me talk --
STEVE: -- it might help me to get --
DICK: -- let's talk about other
conversations.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: I see him as a manipulator. He
manipulates people the way he's manipulated people
inside there.
STEVE: Well, what do you think he's gaining
by it? I mean if you look at this, look at this lousy
building --
H DICK: I'll tell you what he's gaining. He's
keeqing himself out of jail.
STEVE: Look at this --
DICK: Clearly.
STEVE: -- no, no. I'm talking before that
even. I'm not -- he -- where's the brandnew
automobiles? Where's all the -- where's the wardrobe?
Where's the beautiful building?
DICK: It's called one -- it's called --
STEVE: Paul Fatta phonetic sp.! --
DICK: -- power. Power.
0: 0»
30
STEVE: Paul Fatta offered him --
DICK: P-O-W-E-R.
STEVE: Paul Fatta offered him in Hawaii his
business which grossed $6 million a year.
DICK: Fine.
STEVE: And he turned him down.
DICK: Hey, a lot of people offered a lot of
things --
STEVE: Why do - okay. What, what do you --
DICK: -- to Jim Jones too, didn't they?
STEVE: -- think he -- what -- where are his
motives? What do you think he's after? What does he
want?
DICK: Power. The ability to --
STEVE: Power?
DICK: -- the ability to --
1
over the last 6, 7 years that wanted to be part ofSTEVE: When he has sent people out of here
this, and he sent them out?
DICK: Well, maybe they were backsliders just
like Oliver and some of those fellows that you sent out
of there were. Okay? Maybe they didn't --
STEVE: Right from day one I mean this, this
whole -- if he wants power, what a strange way to --
he's got the ability to be a more charismatic preacher
than Jimmy Swaggert or Falwell or any of these guys.
.
31
If Swaggert can bring in $250 million a year by
preaching the Lord Jesus and all that they do. I mean
this guy here, he could leave out all these stumbling
blocks that are found in the Bible and just hit on the
nice little appealing things and, and I could see that
about the power thing. I'm here to tell you, Dick,
it's not true.
DICK:
STEVE:
seriously you --
DICK:
STEVE:
the both of you
DICK:
STEVE:
and, and
s
jail.DICK:
STEVE:
night. Ask him
of a test.What --
I wish you could sit -- I wish
His agenda is one of --
-- could sit down in a room with just
I'll be happy to.
-- and, and ask him anything
I'll spend time over with him
-- analyze, analyze morning,
all you want. Put him throughyou want
in the
noon and
any kind
DICK: I'll be happy to. Send -- we'll go
over to jail, and I'll sit outside. He sit inside.
We'll go over this thing, you know, just as, as long as
you, you know, the two of you want to frankly. I'll be
happy to do that. The point of the matter is here you
O < O
32
got to come out of there and get it done before we can
move on.
And you know, we can talk about these
religious convictions from here until doomsday. It
isn't going to, it isn't going to get the problem
resolved. You've got to come out --
STEVE: It is in the mind --
DICK: -- and get it resolved.
STEVE: -- of God, Dick. That's the whole
thing.
DICK: Listen --
STEVE: God's got a will, and that's the will
that I've understood. And it's laid out very clearly
in the Bible. And that's what I'm following. And
more -- I
DICK: Steve, I'm sitting here looking --
Q STEVE: Listen.
DICK: -- at your picture and you know what?
You can -- you know what would we call this if you
weren't --
STEVE: Wait. Can I ask you where you ever
got the picture in the first place?
DICK: Oh, I've got, I've got a good picture
here of you and Judy and --
STEVE: No, where did it come from? I'm
curious.
o:
33
DICK: You know what? I don't know where it
came from. I frankly do not know. But we, we've got a
picture here with Judy leaning on your, on your left
shoulder, and you've got your tie on and your short
hair --
STEVE: Yeah, I know. You went through that
with me before.
DICK: You look, you look -- and I'm trying
to make some sense out of what you're saying. And I'm
listening to a guy that's obviously got some
intelligence, some belief in God, a decent education --
STEVE: Who knows. Maybe I don't. _
DICK: -- and you're sucked in by this guy?
I mean my God. That doesn't -- I don't understand
that.
STEVE: I understand what you're raising as
queskions. I really do. Because I've gone through the
same thing with so many other people that were caught
up in the Moonies, the Hare Krishnas, the Children of
God, the this, the that. And don't you think that all
through my life in comparing religion and philosophies
that red flags in everybody's brain go up.
When I first met him I -- listen to what I
had to say to Rick today. I think it's Rick 2. And
really got into details about like how and why and what
I did go through. Because I did. It's like when I
O O >
34
first started listening and so forth it's like well,
what is this?
DICK: You know, if you were truthfully with
me, if you were truthful right here and now, you would
flat tell me that you wish you'd never, ever heard of
David Koresh.
STEVE: Oh, I have carnally --
DICK: Carnally. Listen, don't say carnally.
STEVE: No, no. But I'm a spiritual being
also. I really believe that, Dick. I mean there's --
DICK: You got involved with this guy that's
going to --
STEVE: If you believe in the Bible -- Dick,
if you --_
DICK: -- and have ruined a great deal of
your life. _
P.
k STEVE: No, listen. All of Christians
believe that, that we're both a flesh, a carnal being
and a spiritual being.
DICK: I understand.
STEVE: Okay, that's the vein I'm talking
about. But no, I would agree --
DICK: Well, your carnal self is the one
that's going to have to go to court to answer to these
charges.
STEVE: Truly. Truly.
on or
35
DICK: Not your spiritual self, okay? And
that is what we're talking about here. We're talking
about your carnal self if that's the way you want to
put it.
STEVE: I understand. And I, and I agree.
DICK: And you, you -- if you were truthful
with me, you'd say boy, I wish Judy and I had never
heard of that guy.
STEVE: Oh, I've -- many times -- when day by
day as every day is a new day for making decisions as
to where one's at, where they're going.
DICK: Be truthful with me. Don't you wish
you'd never, ever heard of this man?
STEVE: There are times even --
DICK: There are times every day.
STEVE: -- there are times -- oh, yeah. No
question about that.
§ DICK: Every day.
STEVE: No question. Because once I'd been,
seen and I'm still convicted, it's like I can't walk
away.
DICK: Well, you could. All you have to do
is open the door and walk out of there. But the fact
the matter remains --
STEVE: But I fear the unknown power --
DICK: You fear. Exactly.
i
WSTEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
okay?
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
God and give him
judgment --
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
about.
STEVE:. s
36
-- that I've found in the Bible.
You fear. That's exactly. Fear --
I fear God.
-- and fear is something we all have,
Revelation 14 says --
We all fear God.
-- the first angel's message is fear
glory. For the hour of his
Fine.
-- has come.
But that's not the fear we're talking
God sat in judgment which all of his
word was going to come to pass was laid out by the
proéhets. And I fear what's coming upon this world.
You know, if it says in Isaiah that God can have you
live for 100 years and you can't die. But in a, in a
terrible condition of this world where there's no
intercession of the Holy Spirit or good angels, men are
going to do to men what they want, and there's going to
be nothing one can do about it. That's what I fear,
Dick.
DICK:
about this.Well, there is something you can do
C" O}
37
STEVE: There, there is going to be -- those
things that are right around the corner. That is a
reality as I see it. You see the reality of going into
the system, getting involved in the system and I do
too. I know that that's something that is very real --
DICK: You're putting it off at a day at a
time.
STEVE: Pardon?
DICK: You're, you're putting it off a day at
a time.
STEVE: You'll get to see what I'm all about
one day. You're going to see that that's --
DICK: Well, I'm not going to be here for
that, for that period of time. Because frankly --
STEVE: Oh, you will be. Everybody is going
to get to stand one day. All those that have died,
they're going to come up --
§ DICK: Well, I'm talking about here.
STEVE: I'm talking about the resurrections
and how everybody stands in the judgment.
DICK: Steve, nobody's --
STEVE: Whether bad or good -- .
DICK: -- nobody's going to, nobody's going
to quarrel with that. But you're talking about your
coming out --
STEVE: Well, but that's what, that's what I
I" Q:
as
face every day though, Dick. That's the, that's the
first cause. That's the first principle.
DICK: Have you got, have you got chapter 1
edited yet? l
STEVE: Chapter 1.
DICK: The first Seal.
STEVE: Does he have?
DICK: Has he --
STEVE: I don't even know because --
DICK: No, see -- you know, I'll bet you 5
bucks, and you'll have to come out to, to get this
resolved --
STEVE: David just came down. He just, he
just came --
DICK: I'll be he hasn't written 10 words.
H STEVE: He, he says I bet he hasn't written
10 words. He just came into the picture just now.
2 DICK: Great. I'm happy for him. Listen.
STEVE: On the first Seal.
- DICK: Yeah, he's on the first Seal now?
David's voice in background not discernible.! I
thought you guys had gotten, you know, through the
fifth Seal or some such thing.
STEVE: No. No, not at all.
DICK: No, where are you now --
STEVE: That was never stated.
-
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
where are you?
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
questions about
DICK:
STEVE39
-- the first Seal?
No, here's what happened.
I mean listen. You know, truthfully
Clint, Clint is the one --
Pardon me?
Clint was the one that asked
No --
-- where in regards are we in
relation to time with the Seals? Like what, what Seal
are we in.
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
,' DICK:
,2
writings. What
writing?
STEVE
first.
DICK:
STEVE
not discernible
DICK:
STEVENo, I understand that.
Okay, okay.
We've talked about that. But I was --
Right.
-- talking about the manuscript, the
Seal are you currently reviewing and
I believe he's still working on the
He's working on the first Seal.
Yes. David's voice in background
!
How long --
Oh, he says no. He said he's on the
40
second.
DICK: He's on the second Seal.
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: Has the first Seal been edited yet? I
mean is this --
STEVE: No, it hasn't.
DICK: -- a rough draft?
STEVE: Not that I'm aware of. Because I,
I'm the one that is probably going to be doing that.
And that's not been done.
DICK: Well, can you give me any kind of time
frame at all?
STEVE: Well, from, from my part? From my
part it will take no time at all.
DICK: No, I'm not talking about your part.
I'm talking about David's part.
V STEVE: I -- he can't give you -- I really --
can you give him a time frame as to when the Seven
Seals will be finally in manuscript form? David's
voice in background not discernible.! Considering the
Bradleys running into the building and all the --
DICK: They may never get done, right?
STEVE: Listen. With all those - no, it, it
slows the process. No, he's doing it, Dick. But you
know the noises and all that, you know, of course, it's
harder to concentrate. It's harder to get the very
I O>
41
language down on paper. It, it makes --
DICK: Steve, Steve, listen. Do you think
you're talking to some kind of a dummy? I mean let me
ask -- answer me truthfully.
STEVE: Dick, Dick thinks I'm, Dick thinks
I'm treating him as a dummy and as he, he -- really,
let me put it in words. You think I'm insulting you,
right? I mean he's implying I'm insulting him.
DICK: You, you are insulting me. You
absolutely are insulting me when you offer up that kind
of rhetoric. You are insulting me, okay? I take that
as an insult. .
STEVE: I don't know. He's wondering why
can't we reach you, Dick, I mean from our realm? Why?
I mean I wish you could have listened to the
conversation with Clint. Seriously. And give me your
honest evaluation, opinion. That's what we're all
about. That's totally why we're here. Whether you
believe in God or not Dick --
DICK: Now, hold it. Let's don't get in -- I
told you I believe in God, okay.
STEVE: Well, no, no, no. But do you -- I
can tell you for a fact between Dave and myself, every
individual here, we want to see you live forever. I
don't want any harm to you, to me. I want to see you
have quality life that never ends. There's no reason
I O»
42
why it should.
DICK: Well, I'm, I'm --
STEVE: That's what I'm into number one.
DICK: -- truthfully I'm, I'm happy, I'm glad
that you think that way. Because I appreciate that.
But, but let's, you know, we've got other issues that
we have to handle, Steve.
STEVE: Can I -- do you, do you want to talk
with David or --
DICK: Put him on. I'll be happy to talk to
him.
STEVE: -- David, you want to talk with him?
He'd be happy to talk with you. But try to give him at
least a little time to, to answer and develop something
there, Dick. At - try to understand why I'm here.
~ DICK: I understand why you're there. I've
F
heard you tell me over and over again why you're there.
My question to you is when are you coming out of there?
STEVE: I know. And I, I can't give you a
definitive answer just yet.
DICK: Laughing.! I know. You have never
given us a definitive answer.
STEVE: Well, no. Because I, I don't want to
be lying to you. I don't want to be, you know, pulling
you on. I've never made -- I've never come right out
and said this or that, because I feel that if I do I've
Q l I
43
got to do it indiscernible! --
DICK: That's because you can't make a
decision on your own. You, you're not in a position --
STEVE: No, I can make a -- no, I make a --
listen. Dick, am I not making a decision every day
just by being here when the easier thing for me to do
is to come out. That is the easier thing. I mean
listen to what I had to say to Rick today. Please do
that. And you'll understand a little bit more about me
and why I'm still here.
DICK: Well, I understand enough about you to
understand why you're there.
STEVE: I don't think you really do. I don't
think you do.
DICK: Steve, I understand fully why you're
there.h I mean I really do.
ViA3 STEVE: Well, here, here's David. Hang on.
Here he is. Steve's voice in background not
discernible.! t
DAVID: Hello, Dick.
DICK: David, how are you?
DAVID: How you doing?
DICK: Been a while since I've talked to you.
DAVID: Did you get a good vacation?
DICK: Well, no, in fact it wasn't a
vacation. I got some things handled that needed to be
O: O!
4 4
handled in my personal life. And my understanding was
that after the, the Easter season there that you folks
would be considering coming out. And so I came back
to, to be here when that happened. But unfortunately,
I got here a little early I guess.
DAVID: Chuckling.!
DICK: It appears at least, doesn't it?
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
DICK: Huh?
DAVID: Yeah.
DICK: How you working -- you doing well on
your manuscript? Are you, you moving along on that?
DAVID: Yeah. The, the first one's been
completed, and as Steve was trying to tell you, you
know, that so many of us seem to, to be totally
detached from the facts of the, of the Scripture. I
mean the extreme persecutions that were received by
Christ 2,000 years ago. I mean everybody thought he
was a nut. Everybody.
And no matter what he did - they thought the
miracles were of the devil. You know, he doeth the
works by the power of Beelzebul -- I mean they were,
they were directed then. I mean they were in a
situation where they had to make decisions right then
and there. And most of them didn't have time to. Most
of them had their lives to attend to. They were
Q C 1
wrapped up. They had to pay taxes
Unidentified voices in background
Here.
DICK: What do I hear in
DAVID: Yeah, they're --
Unidentified voices in background45
to Rome.
not discernible.!
the background?
wait a second.
not discernible.!
Sledgehammer's brother. The, the generals are
serenading us I believe.
DICK: Laughing.! The generals are
serenading you, huh?
DAVID: Yeah, they're doing their own
personal announcements now of all their strange and
unique sounds .
DICK: Really?
DAVID: Yeah --
W DICK: I can hear part of them, but I can't
hear them clearly.
:
DAVID: He just got through saying well,
hello all you people out there, he
anyway some -- they're trying to make some kind
radio station or something or -- and he goes we
you might have a lot of sleep in there, so this
Sledgehammers brother, you know.
DICK: Laughing.!says this is
of
thought
is
DAVID: You know, there's a sledgehammer --
DICK: Well, I'm glad that you can maintain
I I>k
46
your sense of humor in there.
DAVID: Well, what are you going to do, cry?
Laughing.!
DICK: Well, you're right. There's not much
you can do about it.
DAVID: I mean when you got the truth, you've
got something that is always consistent. It's, it's
foundation. It's, it's as solid as a rock and
you've --
DICK: David, let me tell you something. You
know what? You missed your calling. You would have
been one hell of a salesman, you know that? I mean you
really would have been a great salesman. You -- I know
it's, it's a carnal interest. But you could have been
a wealthy man, you know that? Because you have got a
gift of what some people might call bullshit. But I'm
notggoing to say that. I'm going to say you have a
gift of gab that is probably as good as anybody I've
ever heard. And that, you know, and I've been doing
this job for a long time.
DAVID: Um-hum.
DICK: You are very good at what you do.
However, you know, my belief is that what you do is, is
a very deliberate thing and is a very manipulative.
You know, it really is. I mean let's face it. You're
good at what you do, aren't you? I mean will you admit
I C»
to that?47
DAVID: Well, being -- if you'll go and check
my records all through my school days, being a child
basically with forms of dyslexia, learning
disabilities, not knowing how to read --
DICK: You compensated --
DAVID: -- failing, failing in 9th grade,
quitting school in 9th grade --
. DICK: Because of what? Lack of motivation
though? I mean is that probably --
DAVID: No, no. What it was is that I, I had
a stuttering problem. I had a speech problem.
DICK: But you overcame all of that. _
DAVID: Well, in
upside down. And when the
was thoroughly given to me
to deal with my peers also1985 everything just turned
knowledge and information
then the ability and talent
was given to me.
In other words, I never lost the ability to
talk to the common man, but at the same time I had to
confront theologians and men of great learning and
great education. So seeing that they themselves had
professionally learned to evade answers when
questioned, I had to also meet them to bring them back
around to the questions. Because you know, basically
what's a negotiator? You know, he's a professional
well, you tell me.
O Y I
4 8
DICK: Well, we're here to try to work with
you obviously. And --
DAVID: Yes.
DICK: -- we talk back and forth and try to
influence one another to, to act in an appropriate
manner. I mean --
DAVID: Right.
DICK: -- that's basically what we're doing,
trying to iron out this, this impasse. And you're
trying to use your, your ways and your powers and your
skills in the same fashion that we're trying to, to use
our skills in order to influence you to come out of
there on a timely basis. And it --
DAVID: Right.
DICK: -- and you have elected not to come
out and -- '
; DAVID: Well, that's not the case. See what
you're, what you're stating, Dick, is that I have no
connection whatsoever to God.
DICK: No, I'm not saying that.
DAVID: Now wait. That's exactly what you're
saying, because if I'm revealing the Seven Seals either
I'm giving my opinions on it or it's by the direct
spirit that revealed the seals to the prophets from
Moses to Malachi. Now remember, the Bible is a very
peculiar and strange book. And there are men who have
O »
49
made multi-billions on it.
DICK: And they continue to do so today.
DAVID: And that's going to stop. That's
going to come to an end.
DICK: Well, I mean you've used it to your
advantage in some respects --
DAVID: Never have. Never have.
DICK: You haven't.
DAVID: On the contrary, you'll find there
are many, many people that I have turned away, and I
never have used any form of means or money and
promotion of this message. The individuals who receive
the knowledge of the Seven Seals are peoples who become
partakers of the work. When it says in Revelation 22,
Christ says I come. My reward is with me to give to
every man, it means just that.
g God the Father gives to Christ a Seal. A
book. There's knowledge in that book. Christ comes to
give it to men. That's how the 144,000 are sealed.
DICK: Yeah, but David why, why do people
disagree with your interpretation of the Seals?
DAVID: No one ever has.
DICK: They haven't?
DAVID: No.
DICK: Well, they have, they've indicated
that to me personally.
DAVID: Who?SO
DICK: Well, I'm not going to tell you who at
this point --
DAVID: Well --
DICK: -- in time but --
DAVID: -- there's no way --
DICK: -- I'm going to tell you that I have
been in touch with religious leaders, religious people
of note who tell me that your interpretation of the
Seven Seals is certainly different than anybody else's
interpretation of the Seven Seals.
DAVID: Well, that's true. But Dick, the
main key point is, is that when someone is directed to
Psalms 45 and then shown the first Seal, it's so
obvious, no one's ever contradicted me. No one has
ever tried to state that Psalms 45 is_not the first
'.
Seal.
DICK: David, but would you accept anybody
else's interpretation? I, I don't think so. I --
DAVID: Well --
DICK: -- I would doubt that.
DAVID: Well, now here's the thing. In my
experience with most theologians and most scholars, we
always try to make the bridge on what we do agree on.
That's the Christian thing anyway.
They agree that God sits on a throne. And
. .1
51
they agree that God has a book in his right hand. And
they agree that it's sealed. They also agree that it's
a revelation of Christ that God gives to him. They
always agree on that, because that's the obvious. Some
may not have looked at it that way before, but when
it's presented in that light sure enough Revelation 4
and S clearly reveals that.
So the question remains then is, is this an
event which must be hereafter? And of course that's
also -- no one disagrees on it.
DICK: Nobody will disagree with that.
DAVID: Okay. Now what happens next is in
Revelation 10 the next point we bring to their
attention is that when the mighty angel comes down with
this little book opened, and the seven thunders are
uttered, then we realize that according to Scripture
when;there's time no longer this mystery of God is to
be finished. But the context states is to be finished
as God has declared to his servants, the prophets. So
this is where we get our foundation to --
DICK: I understand. And no theologian's
going to argue with that particular point. However,
what, what the argument is I think is that at some
point in time that's all going to come to, to pass.
DAVID: Exactly.
DICK: But how do we deal, David, how do we
Q, i ! 52
deal with the present?
DAVID: Well, the present since 1985 has been
after the theologians and scholars and ministers and
teachers do agree upon these points, then what happens
is I bring them to 22 where it says, I come, my reward
is with me.
And I ask them the question what is this
reward that Christ brings with him? And of course, the
most general answer is well, heaven, power, glory,
eternal life, you know. And I go well, that's true.
But did not the Father give him a book that no other
person in heaven or earth was worthy to receive? And
they go huh.
I go this is exactly what Isaiah says.
Isaiah says in chapter 40 the Lord will come with a
strong hand. His reward will be with him and his work
befqre him. He'll gather his flock like a shepherd. I
also state when Christ comes will he not gather his
flock like a shepherd? Will he not gather all those
that belong to him together into one?
Well, then I ask them the question about how
are the 144,000 sealed. Well, Revelation 7 says
they're sealed by the angel from the east with the seal
of the living God. Then the question goes back to
well, who is the living God? The one on the throne?
Yes. The one had the book in his hand that was sealed?
<9 I
5 3
Yes. The one who gives it to Christ? Yes. Okay. So
with all these points of reasoning, then we lay a
foundation to be able to say well, where in the
prophecies is the first Seal found?
It's kind of like, you know, when you're
watching TV there will be a preview of a movie that's
fixing to come up, you know? And they'll just show you
a few action-packed scenes, right?
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: Before the main movie comes. Well,
so also is the Seals.
End of Tape #234!
F
* 92
I
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #235
4/16/93
0245 - 0330
Q. O»
2
Tape #235!
DAVID: -- miniatures of the more exposed
version what's contained in the prophetic writings.
Now this is something that scholars go well, well, show
me. Good. That's where I come in. That's where my
work is.
So for instance, in the first seal the man on
the white horse with the crown and a bow we first go to
Psalms 45 which brings to view this very prophecy and
gives you the details. Then it talks about the
marriage of the Lamb. Christ and the marriage
divine --
DICK: Well, tell me, David, how does this
event fit into this thing. Let's talk about the carnal
self, not the spiritual self. Let's talk about the
present.
Q DAVID: The reality.
DICK: The reality.
DAVID: Okay.
DICK: What is going on today here.
DAVID: Okay.
DICK: And how that's going to be resolved.
Is it not true that you're somewhat at least at this
point in your life answerable to man's law --
DAVID: Oh, definitely.
DICK: -- as well as God's law.
O O
3
DAVID: Definitely.
DICK: Doesn't that have to be an issue
that's dealt with --
DAVID: Well, it is. See I am definitely in
the world. No doubt about it.
DICK: Okay, then --
DAVID: Okay. Let me explain how this all
got started now, see. The, the situation we're now
dealing with is something that began actually back in
1985 or the first part of '86. When I came back from
Israel and started teaching these things, what happened
was is that most of all the people that I began to show
it to, they rejoiced. I mean it was like wow.
I mean there had always been interpretations
of the seals. Every theological department in the
world has somewhat an interpretation or theory on the
seals. But because scholars will always clearly state
that they do not readily agree on all points pertaining
to the seals, they still consider it as a mystery. And
they'll tell you well, this is still a mystery. We're
not really sure pertaining to the actual meaning of the
seals.
DICK: Okay, but in the real world, in 1985
and in that time frame, you had to deal with issues
like George Roden phonetic sp.! and those kinds of
things. '
' 4 O O
DAVID: Not in, not, not in '85 in
particular.
DICK: Well, but I mean that's when, when,
you know, when you came back and when there was some,
you know, George thought that he was going to be head
of the Davidians and you thought that, you know, that
you were in a position to do that --
DAVID: Well --
DICK: - and this whole thing started that
actually culminated in --
DAVID: That's not what it started on. See
Dick, that's not how it started.
DICK: Well, I mean there was that concern.
when you, when you first came up here and hooked up
with Lois Roden, okay, and after the death of, you
know, the original founder, I mean this whole thing had
to flow from those events, did it not?
§ DAVID: No, it's totally separate.
DICK: Well --
DAVID: See the opening of the seals is,
is -- okay, let me explain again. In the 15th century,
there was a Roman Catholic named Martin Luther. Now
Martin Luther began to study, and he found something in
Scripture that was different than what the papacy was
teaching. So he began to study more thoroughly, and by
1530 he had several documents proving that from
Cd Q
5
Scripture the papacy was not established thoroughly on
the rise of the apostles.
DICK: Okay, so what's the analogy with you?
DAVID: So he began to protest.
DICK: Tell me the analogy, the analogy here
is that --
DAVID: Well, I'm building up to it now.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: Dick, see I'm building up. And so he
began to reform the Catholic church. Of course, they
called him a heretic and they prescribed him and --
DICK: As you began to reform the Davidians.
DAVID: Well, now let me, let me build up.
And then when the Lutheran Protestant movement began,
people heard his points, and they agreed with him. And
then there was basically a war that started. Well,
then came from the Lutherans came the Presbyterian.
Then from the Presbyterian came the Methodist. From
the Methodist came the Baptist and the, you know. And
the, and the uncovering of truth because of the
widespread availability of Scripture as printing began
to start and men began to hunger and thirst for the
knowledge of Scripture themselves, when they wanted to
search themselves so that they would not be under the
theories of men pertaining to God. Then what happened
was it began to progress. And it's been progressing
O O 6
ever since.
Well, in the 1800s a phenomenal message came
by a man named William Miller who was the first founder
to teach the second coming of Christ. Before the
1800s, no one really taught the second coming of
Christ. _They taught when you died you went to heaven
or hell or purgatory, and that was it. Well, he missed
understood prophecy, but he got the portion of Christ
coming correct. And so by 1844 when Christ didn't
come, they were disappointed. And so those who
continued to study found out the sabbath was Saturday,
and they have continually progressed.
In 1929, there was a man named Victor Hattas
phonetic sp.! who saw in Scriptures prophecies about
the last days, about a kingdom being set up, the
restoration of Israel. People told him he was crazy.4.
They'said Israel will never become a nation again. He
;
says on the contrary, the Bible says opposite. which
it did. In 1948, it became a nation. It became its
own nation.
Well, in the '60s, Benjamin Roden which was
Lois Rodens husband.
DICK: Um-hum. -
DAVID: He saw in Scripture that the feast
days were a part of the sabbath just like the seventh
day sabbath. Of course, he was trying to convince the
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7
Adventists, and they kept saying no. And it seems like
every step that people make forward in truth is always
met by opposition. Just like with Christ trying to
reform the Jews. It's just one of those hard things
that somebody has to take the initiative to stand out
and honk a horn.
Well, the people in 1977, Sister Roden, she
said she had a vision about an angel who came to her
window, and the angel was female. Then she had these
dreams, and she started teaching that God's image is
male and female based on the story of creation. God
said let's make men in our image. And God made male
and female. So she began to explain about being born
again and the nature of Christ and, and femininity is
also a part of the godhead and, and this kind of stuff.
Kind of like ERA, equals right for religious women.
Okay.
é Well, in '81, I came on the scene, and I came
to observe and to listen. Because on all the place of
the United States of America there's very few groups
who make their religion to study and to learn and to
search. Okay.
So I worked here in '81, '82, '83, and in '84
what happened is I started presenting a subject called
the serpent's root based on Isaiah 14. Well, George
Roden when he saw people coming to listen and he saw
It O»
8
his father also listening, he started a great big
shebang. Making up stuff, accusing things. Because
he, he did this before with his father.
DICK: which culminated in the shooting and
exchange and the digging up and --
DAVID: Absolutely, absolutely not. So what
happened was is that finally I left. And I went back
to Dallas. Okay? And so see what I used to do, I used
to go and work and, and gather money and stuff. And
then I'd, I'd start, you know, teaching again.
So what happened was is that as I was gone,
George kicked the old people off the property with his
semi-automatic Uzi. t
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: But of course, George had always had
mental.problems anyway. This is something that he had
been;actually a court order was put against him back in
1978. Yeah, '78. So he already had a restraining
order on him. Well, when he did this he was supposed
to go to jail.
But his mother asked the people if they would
give her time to work with him so he wouldn't have to
go to jail. Well, of course, the Christians being that
they were, they did so. But in turn, it violated the
restraining order. So once it was known that they had
permitted George to come back on the property, no one
O I »
9
could get him off. So he would go in and, and do mean
things and stuff and just kick the older people off.
Well, I came back into the picture, and we
got a house off of Fourth Street on Herring Street,
Herring and Fourth Street in Waco and put, well, matter
of fact it was like thirty something people in one
large house. Now that made us look stupid. Okay.
Then what comes, what comes to pass is that I
finally got some property in Palestine, and we started
moving the people down to Palestine. And all along,
we're trying to work in a way to get George taken back
off the property. Even his mother was trying to, to
get that done.
Well, it finally happened that George began
to start digging up corpses out of the cemetery.
DICK: Right --
; DAVID: At the front of the property here.
DICK: I'm familiar with that.
DAVID: Okay.
DICK: And that whole process. But so
that -- I understand that, David.
DAVID: So I went to the Sheriff's
Department.
DICK: I understand.
DAVID: Talked to Sheriff Dickerson.
DICK: And you wanted to get a photo and talk
O O
10
to the prosecutor --
DAVID: And no, he told me to get pictures,
because he couldn't go out there just on hearsay.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Of which I hired someone who got the
pictures. We bought the pictures back to him, me and
David Jones. And he looked at the pictures. He looked
kind of concerned and worried. And he says well,
there's no bones here. Now I -- what do you mean no
bones? You can clearly see that it was a casket, one
that had been dug up. It was in the church.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Well, so he says I got to have
pictures of bones. I said well, I'll go out there and
get pictures of it myself then. And as we were walking
out, Dickerson says now boys, be careful. There's some
dangerous customers out there. And he looked real
serious like he knew something.
And things had not been working out since the
beginning anyway with the Sheriff's Department, because
they're supposed to check into that stuff. Especially
corpse abuse. I
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Well, so then that's when we went
down here, and we started thinking about well, what did
he mean by this? So that's when we got the plan for
9 on
ll
diversion. And we went down to Cogdal's phonetic sp.!
down here and, and you know, we bought some, some guns
and stuff. You know, I didn't even own a gun until
then. ~I've been raised with firearms but, but you
know, for several years I never even had one. You
know.
DICK: I like the way you say that diversion.
I like that --
DAVID: That's exactly what it was. You
can't have eight men firing that many rounds into the
ground when everything did happen and George Roden not
being dead. I mean it's just, it was just absolutely
obvious. - '
So in the three groups of people that we
bound together, two were down at the tank, two were
back and the junkyard, and me and two other brothers,
we're the ones who climbed up to the church from the
front of the property, went in to take the pictures.
And what happened? The casket had been moved. George
had been tipped off.
Well, the dogs started barking so we got out.
Not a single shot was fired. No, no confrontation.
George was standing there in his trailer house in his
underwear looking out the window with a spotlight. we,
we crawled down the ditch from the front of the
property all the way down there to that barn. Close to
0» 0»
l2
where the water towers are.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay. So, so no problem. Well, we
stayed out all night that night, and we finally
rendezvoused together and, and we was out there until,
until noon the next day. we sent one guy back, Mark
Wendel back to, to check and, and to call to tell them,
you know, the Sheriff's Department, we were still out
there.
Well, what happened was as we was down by
the, the barn back down here where the guys are at
right now. The, the indiscernible! black barn.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID; We were talking, and we decided well
look, what we can do we're just going to start checking
the houses. The place looked like, like a cyclone hit
it. ~The, the place was dumpy. The houses had been
2
kind of torn up real bad. It was junk everywhere. And
you know, most all the people that were here that we
could see had left. And so we went from house to house
one by one.
And then what happened was finally there was
someone in the house. And there was like some -- the
people that were living here were all into drugs. So
we didn't even know that then. We didn't know that
they were making methamphetamine out here. We all
._. / |
13
discovered that later. All the information we turned
in to the Sheriff's Department. It never came up in
the trial. But they took all of it. All the
documentation, all the needles, all the pornography. A
lot of the pornography we, we burned up afterwards.
But come to find out when George finally came
and confronted, you know, two of the people, he
confronted Stan Silva which had grown up with George in
the earlier days and Floyd Haupman phonetic sp.!. And
he's the one that, that as again he fired
shot too. He didn't know there was eight
just thought there was one or two of us.
And so what happened was he was
there right out in the middle of the road.
shoot at him? No. Did he drop dead? No.
mean how many -- they picked up probably, I
mayb? three or four hundred cartridges, you
Shotgun shells, .22 shells, 223 shells, youthe first
of us. He
standing
Did anybody
But, but I
don't know,
know.
know. And,
and hey, George wasn't hit once. That was not a part
of the plan. But it -- when he heard the firing, he
sure ran like a, like a cowardy sic! backwards.
DICK: Chuckling.!
DAVID: You know. I mean you know --
DICK: Well, hey, I tell you what. A lot of
people run when they're shooting at you --
DAVID: Well, I don't blame them.
Q I I
DICK: I don't either.14
DAVID: I don't blame them.
DICK: I don't either. David --
DAVID: And they're burning their britches
too.
DICK: Well, I understand that. But let, let
me ask you something, David, while we're here. I just
returned here, okay --
DAVID: Uh-huh.
DICK: -- a couple days ago. It's my first
opportunity to get back on the phone with you. But
there's been some talk of this, of the seven seals and
your, and your reducing them to some, some form of
written word.
DAVID: Right.
~ DICK: And what, what are we looking at,
David, in terms of time here? I mean let's be truthful
now. Let's, let's be truthful with one another. What,
what kind of time element we talking about?
DAVID: Well, the first, the, the first seal
in, in -- okay, okay, truthful. Let's, let's be
truthful now. That's a word that you want to use.
Let's really, let's really lay that word out like we
would peanut butter on bread.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: Okay. The first seal incorporates
I C >
15
the Mosaic writings, Deuteronomy 32 and the Psalms
pertaining to Isaiah. Isaiah is the major prophet.
Micah, Hosea, Obadiah and Zephaniah are the minor
prophets. They were, they were contemporary with
Isaiah.
DICK: Okay. Have
you reduced that to writing?
DAVID: Yes, yes.
DICK: How long is that --
DAVID: -- a form,
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: It's, it'syou written that -- have
/
I've put it into --
digestible form.
- like I say it's the
first chapter. Each of the seals is going to be
additional chapter.
DICK: Okay, how -- this first chapter, how
long is it, David? It's finished now.
F DAVID: How many --
2
DICK: Is that correct?
DAVID: -~ how many pages?
DICK:
thing?
DAVID: It's probably - the
probably about, I don't know, anywhere
pages.
DICK: Okay. And that needs
Steven I understand. Is that, is thatYeah. I mean how long we, is this
first chapter is
from 25 to 28
to be edited by
correct?
I , §. 16
DAVID: Well, I've, I've got three or four
different people here that can --
DICK: Okay. '
DAVID: -- that can take care of it pretty
good. I am not a --
DICK: And how long have you been working on
that?
DAVID: Is this the third -- this is the
fourth day.
DICK: Fourth day on, on the one. But my
talking to you on the phone is probably holding up this
process. How many hours a day do you spend on that?
DAVID: Oh, it's been, it's been basically
night and day. I mean I got to sleep sometimes.
DICK: Right.
DAVID: Well, I had, I had a lot of
motivation here a while back, because I had so much
noise at night.
DICK: Now are you telling me, David, I want
to get this clear in my own mind. Are you telling me
here and now that as soon as you reduce the seven seals
to a written form that you're coming out of there? I
don't mean --
DAVID: Then I have no reason --
DICK: -- two days later or --
DAVID: -- I have no reason not to --
17
DICK: I know what you're saying. But answer
my question if you would, please. Definitely. I mean
I want to get an answer to this. Are you coming out as
soon as you're done, or are --
DAVID: I'm coming out.
DICK: -- you saying I'm coming out
afterwards at some point in time.
DAVID: After I get the thing -- see, Dick,
you don't seem to understand. We are going to fulfill
our commitment to God. Now if you would allow me to
show you what has been pre-written by the prophets, you
would know what I'm doing.
DICK: Well, I'm asking you --
DAVID: You see.
DICK: -- a simple question though --
H DAVID: And I'm giving you the simple answer.
Yes,'yes, yes. I never intended to die in here.
.
DICK: I know that, David.
DAVID: Never intended --
DICK: But, but --
DAVID: -- to be held up in here. Although
it's also foretold in Scripture too. Now remember back
in 1985 like I was telling you.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: There's nothing -- now look at it
from a real secular point of view. Okay?
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18
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: Let's pretend you're a priest. Or
let's - no, let's -- better yet, my worst enemies.
Let's pretend you're a Seventh Day Adventist minister.
Have you ever met with a Seventh Day Adventist before?
DICK: N
DAVID:o.
Okay. Well, they believe that they
are the cream of the crop, mister. You know, and they
keep the seventh day sabbath, the day of the Lord, thy
God, and if you're a Sunday keeper, they say you have
the mark of the beast. You're worshipping the papal
Rome. And they really, you know, that's their key.
They're going to heaven because they keep the day of
the Jews.
DICK: But that appealed to you at one point
in time.
' DAVID: Huh?
3
DICK: That did appeal to you at one point in
time.
DAVID: No, well, see the truth of it is the
seventh day sabbath is the sabbath. But the point of
it is, is that Armstrong keeps that day. The Seventh
Day Baptists kept
ever did. I mean
of years, Seventh
But theit before the Seventh Day Adventists
you know. They go back for hundreds
Day Baptists.
point I'm making is, is that I've
/
19
always mingled amongst those groups who claim to have a
higher perception of God's will according to Scripture.
Doctrine. Do you understand?
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now here I come, Mr. Nobody, no
credentials. You know, a dropout in school or whatever
it may appear to be. And I sit before these gentlemen,
and I bring up the subject of the most concerned
interest.
For instance, New Testament believers believe
that Christ took up the position of the levitical
priesthood. Christ is now the high priest in heaven.
Christ is the one who is to mediate the New Testament.
In other words, the Father is to give to Christ the New
Testament is, is to reveal it to his servants on earth.
That's what Hebrews is all about.
Q DICK: Can I interrupt one more time?
DAVID: Sure.
DICK: Okay. You know, you're very skillful
at doing this. You have --
DAVID: Well, it's my subject.
DICK: -- once again evaded my question.
DAVID: N0, I didn't.
DICK: Yes, you have.
DAVID: What I was -- no, I didn't. What I
was stating was back to the literality sic! of what
Q? O;
20
this means, how this position that I'm in now came
about. What I was stating was is I'm sitting before a
minister whose -- well, like for instance, Loma Linda
University, we're talking about fifty and sixty
thousand dollars collected in one sabbath. Now that's,
that's some lettuce, man. You know what I mean?
DICK: I understand what you're saying.
DAVID: Okay. Now here I come, and I sit in
front of them, and I bring them a challenge. I
challenge their credentials to teach the gospel. And I
start showing them the seven seals, and they begin to
see that I know what I'm talking about. And I'm
pointing right there in their Bible out of their
Scriptures and showing them word for word, comparison
to comparison, and it's developing a picture.
- Well, then they begin to look at me, and they
begin to say what does this mean? Well, if I was
Christ, right?
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Who does their church belong to?
Huh?
DICK: Okay. I understand what you're
saying.
DAVID: Okay. Now who should they be giving
that tide money to?
DICK: I understand.
Q Q;
21
DAVID: Uh-huh. So see, it is a definite
threat on their economic and political system as a
church.
DICK: Well, can't you write those seven
seals from jail, David?
DAVID: Well, you see so far you've got to
realize there's more involved then just write them in
jail. First of all --
DICK: I mean you got --
DAVID: -- I'm -- look, you're not --
DICK: -- this is in your mind.
DAVID: -- I'm not going to have that
privilege. I'm not going to have that privilege in
jail. A
DICK: why? V
~ DAVID: You know it and I know it.
Q DICK: No, I don't know that.
DAVID: Because it is a lying, damnated sic!
system and you know that.
DICK: So what are you suggesting, that
you're not going to have the opportunity to do that?
DAVID: I'm saying that when I get through
writing these, and they're given to my attorney.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: And my attorney hands them over --
what's the two theologians name?
. I
A 22
STEVE: Phillip Arnold --
DAVID: Phillip Arnold --
STEVE: -- Tabor
DAVID:
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: -- which phonetic sp.!.
-- and Jim Tabor --
have shown that they have a
sincere interest in these things.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: You see. Then I can spend all my
time in jail, and people can go ahead and ask me all
the stupid questions they want. Because they're not
going to ask me about the seals. They're going to say
do you molest young ladies? Have you eaten babies? Do
you sacrifice people? Do you make automatic weapons?
Do you have bombs? That's what they're going to be
interested in, sensationalism.
f DICK: Okay, so that's your -- that's why you
2
need to get it done before you leave there then.
DAVID: That's why I am --
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: -- going
see, you know as well as I
world, they want something
They don't want to have to
there and let me sit thereto complete it. Because you
do that people in this
dramatic and sensational.
sit -- no one's going to sit
in front of a camera and
read Psalms 40 to them to prove the first seal. Dick,
I O
23
it's a real world. And that's why I'm sympathetic with
your position. I realize you're frustrated. And I
agree with you.
DICK: I'm not frustrated. I went home and
I'm, I'm, in fact, I'm no longer frustrated. I never
was frustrated.
DAVID: Did you take a shower for me?
DICK: Well, yeah. I took a couple of them
for you.
DAVID: Thank you. I appreciate it.
DICK: Well, you know, that's, that's one of
the things that's available. But listen, let's go back
to my original question. My understanding is that
you're going to write these seals. And originally it
was going to take you a couple days. But now, you
know,,given all these other things that you haven't --
,; DAVID: I never said a couple of days.
D DICK: Okay.
DAVID: No one ever said a couple of days.
DICK: Okay. Well, whatever the time frame
is, we're looking at 4 for this one, for the first, for
the first seal.
DAVID: First seal.
DICK: Okay. And then say it took you --
what do you expect for the others? I mean totally
we're talking about a good deal of time, are we not?
BEE! -
eternity
going to
two or t
You know
fact.
you're g
to fine
best pro
every gu
understa
;
about th
are goin
crime so
all the24
DAVID: It's not that long. You don't
DICK: No, I know it's not in terms of
. But let's talk about --
DAVID: No, in terms of literality. It's
take, it's going to take probably a year or
hree just to get this court case settled out.
, the - be more, be more realistic in this
DICK: I don't disagree with that.
DAVID: You're going to have - you're,
oing to go through this place, and you're going
comb it. You know, you're going to bring the
fessionals in. You're going to have to look at
n hole.
DICK: Well, you've got one_of the best -- my
nding is Dick DeGuerin is a terrific attorney.
DAVID: Well, I realize that. I'm talking
e, the Sheriff's Department, the, the ones that
g to be in charge of the, what they call the
ene. You know.
DICK: Texas Rangers, right.
DAVID: Texas Rangers.
DICK: Right.
DAVID: And they're going to have to collect
information, and they're going to probably, you
O~ I»
25
know, do all kinds of, of taking samples and
fingerprints and, and all that kind of stuff, you know.
And it's going to take them some time.
They're going to go through all these files.
we've got files and files in here of, of receipts and
papers and documents. And there's -- and I've, I've
got just thousands of tapes. I'm sure they're going to
want to listen to every last one of them, you know.
And just who knows. You're not dealing with just four
or five people here.
DICK: I understand that.
DAVID; You know, you're dealing with, you
know, goodness, a large number of --
DICK: Well, see you're saying --
DAVID; -- a hundred and sixty some, a
hundred and seventy some people.
i DICK: So you're saying that in comparison --
' DAVID: So I'm going to sit in jail a long
time. You going to let me get out on bond? I doubt
it.
DICK: Well, again, you know, we don't set
bonds. And you know that. I'm sure your attorney told
you that.
DAVID: Well, he told -- well, I'm not
supposed to say what he told me. But the thing of it
is, is that it's just very highly unlikely. I'm such a
O~ O»
26
hot item right now, although my life in this world is
basically ruined, you know, that, that, you know, I'm
going to, I'm going to be sitting there a long time.
DICK: Have you ever heard the saying a
legend in your own mind?
DAVID: I don't want to be a legend. Look,
if I wanted to be a legend, I'm one of the hottest
guitar players LA ever saw.
DICK: Well, you play -- you don't play any
classical guitar, do you?
DAVID: Yes, I play classical guitar.
DICK: Yeah, what --
DAVID: I can do Aldo Miola phonetic sp.!
stuff all day long.
DICK: What's a good, what's a good classical
guitar to buy? _ »
IE DAVID: Well, it --
DICK: Brand name.
DAVID: A brand name?
DICK: Um-hum. How about an Alvarez. Is
that a good, is that a good classical -
DAVID: Well, Alvarez is --
DICK: Or Yamaha?
DAVID: -- is well laughing!. Your Guild
phonetic sp.! guitars are really nice today. Your
Yamahas.
O ~ O I
27
DICK: I'm, I'm looking on the low -- I'm
looking at the low end though. I'm not looking at a,
at a concert.
DAVID: No, well, this -- I'm talking about
low end. See what happened was several years ago Japan
bought the top woods and stuff.
DICK: Ayari phonetic sp.!. is that a good
one?
DAVID: Huh?
DICK: One that is customized by --
DAVID: Aki phonetic sp.!.
DICK: Pardon me?
DAVID: You mean Aki?
DICK: No, no. I know what Aki --
DAVID: Well, see --
~ DICK: But there's supposed to be a guy by
the meme of Ayari that, that does some custom, he and
his family, a Japanese that does some custom guitar --
DAVID: I'm not familiar with that.
mcx: Okay --
DAVID: But normally Martins, your older
Martins were, were some of the better classical
guitars. But Alvarez is a very good guitar.
DICK: Is it?
DAVID: It's -- when it first came out back
in the, in the '70s when he went into the electric
I O *l 28
guitar markets, you know, a lot of people liked them.
Of course, you know, people got them confused with the
Ivanez phonetic sp.! Japanese guitars.
DICK: Yeah, now again, I'm just talking
about -- I'm not talking about I'm, I'm, the acoustic.
I'm talking about just a classic acoustical guitar,
right?
DAVID: Yeah.
DICK: Yeah. .
DAVID: Well, you know, Greco and stuff. A
lot of the earlier - even Honer phonetic sp.! made,
made an excellent guitar for a while there. You know,
those are, those are cheap, cheap guitars. You know,
$99, $150 .
DICK: Yeah. What do you got to go to about
$450, $500, $600 before you get a decent one?
é DAVID: Well, not so much in regards to the
acoustic type, you know, catgut or nylon string
guitars. D
DICK: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Because your resonation is totally
different than what it would be with a steel string
guitar.
DICK: Yeah.
DAVID: And that's what you want. You want,
you want low ambience when you have actual classical
O C>
29
guitar. And so, you know, but see I build guitars
myself too. And --
DICK: Will you send me out an autographed
copy? Huh?
DAVID: Come on, Dick.
DICK: Listen. I don't want to get into
this. But I just wanted your opinion on that.
Now listen. Let's get back to the point at
hand. This, you know, the writing of the seals. Okay,
you've got to do that from in there, and it's going to
take you X amount of time. But just tell me this,
David. Are you saying that when you finish that
manuscript --
DAVID:V Then I'm not bound any longer to
make --
~ DICK: No, but see that doesn't answer the
queétion.
DAVID: -- amendments to resist you. Then
I'll be out. Yes. Definitely.
DICK: I know you'll be out. But that could,
couldn't -- excuse me. I've got a cold. That could
mean a lot of things, David. That could mean in, in
July --
DAVID: I'll be in custody in the jailhouse.
You can come down there and feed me bananas --
DICK: No, I know, I know at some point in
0- Q»
30
time that's true. But I'm, I'm getting from you, I'm
asking you that when that is finished are you then
telling me that you are coming out the next day or 2
hours after you send that out or what?
DAVID: Well, I'll probably when I, when I
bring it out -- see my attorney is going to get the,
get to the copy.
DICK: Right.
DAVID: Okay. And as soon as he hands it
over to the scholars, the theologians.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Right? That's when he's going to
come back, and that's when I'm going to go out with
him. Because he said point blank that, you know, one
of the guarantees of me arriving down there is that
he's going to go with me.
g DICK: Okay. I understand that.
DAVID: And so -- and I, and I believe him on
that. I mean I, I actually I have a lot of faith in
Dick DeGuerin and respect that, you know, he's not only
just a professional from a professional's point of
view, he's also a decent person. You know, he has -- a
lot of attorneys like I say are all business and no
reason.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: They forget how to communicate with
C~ O»
31
human beings.
DICK: Okay, let me, let me pose the question
here, David. The response when we, back on the 2nd of
March was that God told you to wait. I mean how do you
know that God is not going to tell you to wait, or how
do we know that God is not going to wait --
DAVID: Because --
DICK: -- after that manuscript leaves.
DAVID: -- because the waiting period has
something to do with the judiciary system in regards to
how God's going to deal with the situation here.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: You see, you don't understand. I've
prayed day and night to hold something back. Remember,
in Revelation during the sixth seal when the sixth seal
is opened, the sun, moon and stars is darkened, right?
Q DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay. In Matthew 24, Christ was
telling the disciples that where the carcase is the
eagles be gathered. And after that of it, right after
that of it of the carcase and the eagles.
DICK: Well, what does it mean --
DAVID: The sun, moon and stars --
DICK: -- in today's day. In today's day.
DAVID: The carcase is a dead body.
DICK: Okay.
C I =
_ 32
DAVID: You see, the events of Matthew 24
entails the same fulfillment of prophecy amongst the
gentiles that took place 2,000 years ago.
DICK: Yeah,
please. Put it in, in
today's date. What --
as you get these seven
form that --
DAVID: Then
responsibility --but put it -- David, David,
language here and now today,
you're suggesting that as soon
seals written down in manuscript
it will be your
DICK: -- it's been resolved.
DAVID: -- your responsibility to get the
book and read it. It's not going to be, it's not going
to be something that has to be paid for. It's your
responsibility to look into it and see it.
, DICK: That's fine.
,f DAVID: And this way you can call me mud and
2
dirt and everything you want to --
DICK: Well, nobody's going to do that.
Nobody's going to do that.
DAVID: Well, now wait a minute.
DICK: I'm not here to do that.
DAVID: NOW, now Dick, let's get back to the
earth again now. That's all people see about me. Is
they see what they see through their carnal eyes
through what they consider to be obvious. And you're
Q.
33
right. From their point of view, all they've heard is
one side of the story. I
DICK: Well, that's exactly right. And of
course --
DAVID: Now and so when, when it comes down
to it, people know me more about what they don't know
about me than what they do.
DICK: Well, then you're going to be able to
correct all that.
DAVID: Well, I'm going to have the
opportunity as a prisoner. As someone that is pictured
as a prisoner which that in itself is deflective to
ones nature to be able to defend myself only in a
court of law where an attorney speaks in my behalf.
Now you know how that goes too, Dick.
H DICK: Certainly.
V; DAVID; In other words, I'm not going to be
able to, be able to talk to the, to the people like I
talk to you. Yes or no. Answer the question. Yes or
no. I went through that in '88.
DICK: No, that's true. That's --
DAVID: The night you went out there --
DICK: -- that's 100 percent true.
DAVID: -- to murder George Roden. Now, now
Vernon, the night you went out there to murder George
Roden, did you have any thoughts of remorse in your
0 V i
34
heart? Yes or no.
DICK: And your -- well, and your answer
obviously they wanted it framed in a yes or no answer.
But that's what
DAVID
DICK:
another form of
before. I mean
DAVID
DICK:
You know that.
DAVID
wrong.
DICK:your attorney --
And my attorney kept saying I object.
Well, but then he gets up and ask you
the question to counter what was said
But it was --
-- that's the way it's done, Dave.
It was -- yeah, but you know it's
well, you know, you can say that. But
that's the way it's done. You know, we've got to deal
with reality here. So, so you're telling me that --
yougknow what, I'm probably keeping you from doing your
writing then. I, I probably should let you go and get
back to that. Because I know we're all, we're all
eagerly awaiting that date. And, and you know we are
and you are too
DAVID: And see with the written form what,
what happens, okay, first of all, the beauty and the
power of this message is that I have always stood
before my opponents and my students face to face. And
that way no matter what presentation or point they try
Oi I.
35
to bring to counteract what I've stated, I've always
been able to listen and say well, okay then. And then
I go over to another prophecy. And another and
another. And this is what either makes somebody
respect me, because they cannot gang say what's being
taught, or hate me because they know I'm right.
DICK: Well, David, David, if you want
respect, you've got to come out of there and get, get
on with things. You know? That's what you have to do
to get respect from us. All right. If you want the
respect of those of us that are here talking with you,
then you come out. You're, you know, you're, you're
convinced --
yDAVID: You're not going to respect me one
way or the other, Dick.
~ DICK: You're -- well, if you can put these
things down in some intelligible form in a timely
fashion, I'll tell you, I'll be the first one to read
it. Okay? I'll guarantee you that. But what I hear
is this continually looking for more time and pressing
for time in order to --
DAVID: Look.
DICK: -- the inevitable is, is going to come
as you have suggested.' t
DAVID: You've been, you've -- your generals
here have been banging against our walls. You know, we
Q I
36
don't have any time. Do you understand, Dick? Every
breath that we take day by day makes us stop and wonder
about our position with God.
Now me it's different. I don't tell people
that God talks to me. That's not_my point of argument.
But when it comes to opening the book, the Bible, and
letting the Bible speak on its own, I have never lost.
Never.
DICK: Well --
DAVID: And the reason being is in 1985, when
those Russian cosmonauts said they saw seven angels
flying towards the earth, that's what they said. They
had no message to back it. That's just from their
political, scientific observation. And I don't think
they'd be up there --
DICK: Well, I've never heard that before¢.
butj--
..}
DAVID: Well, you need to research it.
DICK: -- I'll take your word for it.
DAVID: You need to research it.
DICK: I'll take your word for it.
DAVID: Because it went into some magazines.
It went around the world.
DICK: Really?
. DAVID: And -- yes, it did. And the thing of
it is, is that I don't think that the Russian
1|, I
37
government would appreciate their cosmonauts wasting
important communicative time on telling them a joke.
DICK: N0.
DAVID: But on the contrary --
DICK: They certainly --
DAVID: On the contrary. When I talk about
the seven angels, I begin to open up the messages that
I received from God. And as I said before, my God goes
a little more
religion goes
You
the spirit of
the earth wasdeeper than what most traditional
into.
see, when the creation story says that
God move on the face of the waters. And
without form and void and darkest on the
face of the deep. Well, clearly something was here
already. But it had been destroyed. And when God says
for man to reproduce and replenish the earth, clearly
God tells man to put back something that was already
here before.
And we know that God destroyed the world
again in the days of Noah. And we know that in every
generation there are a few of mankind just as a harvest
there are a few whose intelligence and whose desire to
look into the heavens becomes so dramatic and so strong
they begin to ask the question of who is there? What
is there? Why is it there?
DICK: Well, didn't -- wasn't there a
38
prediction by Roden or maybe it was his predecessor
that the world was coming to an end in what was it,
1975? And that's how a lot of Davidians gathered in
this area. was that not true in --
DAVID: 1955 Florence Hadiff phonetic sp.!
made a prophecy of the resurrection --
DICK: Okay, Florence. That was Florence.
Okay.
DAVID: Of Victor Hadiff. But that was not a
prophecy of the end of the world.
DICK: Well, I thought it was. I thought
they moved out here to Texas. That's not true?
DAVID: No. NO --
DICK: What I read in the magazine was not
true.
~ DAVID: -- what happened was, no, what
hapéened was is that that was when they said Brother
Hadiff would be resurrected. And Benjamin Roden was on
the scene to tell them that was not so.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: Now what happens is, is that it's the
actual, it's the Catholic church and the Lutherans and
Presbyterian and Methodist and Baptist and Church of
Christ and all the other denominations who tell you
that Christ is coming soon which is the end of the
world. They preach that every Sunday.
DICK:
DAVID
ready.
DICK:
DAVID
DICK:
DAVID
DICK:
DAVID
DICK:39
Um-hum. That's right. Be ready --
And they're always telling you to be
Be ready. Well --
They're wrong every Sunday.
Okay.
You got it, Dick?
I've got it. Listen. Can I --
So don't pay. Don't pay.
I, I can go on paper here and said
that David Koresh told me that as soon as he finishes
this manuscript, the seven seals of which you've
finished the first chapter dealing the first seal --
DAVID: The seal, right.
DICK:
available ---- that you're going to make that
pg DAVID: I'll be splitting out of this place.
I'm so sick of MREs, Dick, that --
DICK:
have this right
that's finished.
DAVID:
DICK:
DAVID
DICK:Well, I just want to make sure that I
that you're coming out as soon as
That's what was said by me --
Well, I know.
- by the attorney that --
I know.
DAVID: -- that I'm saying --
" "' 3
40
DICK: Okay. ~
DAVID: -- it's clarified. Lock, stock and
barrel it.
DICK: I mean I've heard you say that you're
coming out after. But that is not specific. You know,
that's a game that we all can play.
DAVID: It's -- look. I know, Dick.
DICK: But I'm asking you for your word.
Yourecsaying --
DAVID: You're writing the script.
DICK: - that your coming out as soon as
that's done. And you gave up the manuscript to
DeGuerin who's going to make copies available for
Arnold and the other, the other fellow.
DAVID: Right.
~ DICK: The other Biblical scholar. And then
youéare coming out --
DAVID: I'm out of here.
DICK: -- with that manuscript.
DAVID: And he's, he's going to come, and the
way the procession is to be, I'm to go out first with
him. And then I think you're last, right, Steve.
STEVE : Um- hum .
DAVID: With his attorney.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: And the other people, the other
I 4 1
people in between.
DICK: And you know what? I'm keeping you
from getting back to work. So I'm -- you know what I'm
going to do? I'm going to let you go so that you can
get back to work. Because David, frankly I'm eagerly
awaiting this manuscript and --
DAVID: Well, I'll tell you what. It's going
to blow your socks off.
DICK: Well, I'm, I'm perfectly willing to,
to read it. And I'm looking forward to it as a
number --
DAVID: You'll either hate me or love me
then.
DICK: Well, I want to read it. And then
1'11, 1'11, you make a decision then. And we'll see
how it goes. In the meantime, you know, let's, let's
get;that thing written. Let's get --
J} DAVID: And you know what the nicest thing
about it is, Dick?
DICK: What's that?
DAVID: You can't interrupt yourself reading.
DICK: I can't. Laughing.!
DAVID: You can't argue with yourself.
DICK: Really?
DAVID: Yeah. You see, when the people try
to talk with me, they argue with me.
O» C1
42
DICK: well, you know --
DAVID: Indiscernib1e.!
DICK: -- what? You're a difficult guy to
talk to sometimes. Because you want to -- you don't
want to talk about issues that we want to talk about.
You want to talk about other issues.
DAVID: I talk about one thing. And that is
I don't want you to have to live 100 years in a world,
a prison house of people that are far meaner, far
bigger. You know, I don't want you to have to live
with Bubbas.
DICK: Well, I appreciate that.
DAVID: That are bigger than you.
DICK: Well, you know, and can I, can I say
that I think that's one of your big concerns is Mr.
Bubba.H
i DAVID: I'm not worried about Bubba.
DICK: You've mentioned it on several
occasions.
DAVID: Laughing.!
DICK: Have you not? Well, why, why does it
come to mind then if you're not at all concerned about
it?
DAVID: It's a, it's a part of concern in
respect to where I always present to people how do you
feel about doing to others what you would not want them
I I .
43
to do unto you?
Now you see, here, here you came into my
world, you know. I came out to you. You tried to stop
my world. And the thing of it was is that you did it
strictly on a hearsay.
DICK: No, no. No, let's, let's separate
ourself a little bit. You're, you're talking about the
collective government is what you're saying.
DAVID: We're talking about, we're talking
about the ATF.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: Okay.
DICK: Not the FBI but the ATP.
DAVID: No, the ATF. Of which you have --
DICK: Okay.
~ DAVID: -- you have raised the right hand of
the§FBI ever since day one. And so, you know,
basically you and the ATP are in brotherhood together
in the position that now you're calling us to come out
to your justice. Well, even though --
DICK: It's not our justice. It's a
constitutional guarantee --
DAVID: Well, now wait a minute. Our
constitutional rights according to the Bible have also
been infringed right and left.
DICK: Okay, then deal with those issues.
O» O~
44
DAVID: And that's exactly what we're coming
out to do.
DICK: Okay. Good.
DAVID: But, but in all reality is, is that
we also understand clearly that once being brought into
the limelight is going to be like jailhouse Hollywood.
DICK: Well, you're going to --
DAVID: You know.
DICK: -- benefit from that. Your -- I --
DAVID: Actually, you know --
DICK: You haven't considered that at all I .
bet, have you? The, the --
DAVID: There's no benefit in having your
family taken away from you, Dick. Now come off of it.
DICK: Nobody said that. Nobody
all. And I certainly wouldn't suggest that
of it. I'm giving up everything.
DICK: But there is some benefit
to be derived by a lot of people from this
not talking about you, David.
DAVID: Spiritually in that they
knowledge to save their soul.
DICK: Well, spiritually perhaps
I'm talking about materially also. '
DAVID: Who?said that at
; DAVID: Hey, well, that's, that's the reality
that's going
thing. I'm
receive a
yes. But
0.
45
DICK: Well, I'm talking about their, you
know, the books that are going to be written and, and
those kinds of things.
DAVID: Who's going to benefit from that? My
children.
DICK: Your children are going to benefit
from that.
DAVID: That's if, if you don't get me on
some kind of racketeering like you was bragging about
the other day. i
DICK: Well, what I'm saying, no, now I --
DAVID: Let's get him on racketeering.
We'll, we'll indiscernible! that.
DICK: No. _Now listen, I didn't say anything
like that --
~ DAVID: You didn't. But the, but the, the
preés, the press conferences did.
DICK: Well, I don't know, because I didn't
hear that. But, but at least let's -- Dave, let's
get -- I guess again I'm tying you up here. Let's get
this thing moving. And I'm going to let you go back to
your -
DAVID: All right.
DICK: - to your, to your writing. _
DAVID: But haven't I spoken logical to you
tonight, Dick?
0:
46
DICK: Well, yeah, at times. But let me tell
you something.
DAVID: In other words, every time I talk
about God, you say that's crazy talk.
DICK: No, I have never once.
DAVID: I'm going to hold you to that now.
DICK: Now never once did I ever say it was
crazy.
DAVID: If you ever have to sit before me, if
you ever have to stand before me, and I'm on a throne
pointing a finger at you, I'm going to bring that back
to your attention.
DICK: Well, you know, please give it some
due consideration if you're sitting over there. Now
would, would you quarrel with me if I, if I said I
might doubt that? Or, or would you be disgusted with
me i? I said that?
DAVID: We'll just have to see, won't we?
DICK: Well, I'm just saying. Now if I
offered that as an opinion, you would respect that,
wouldn't you?
DAVID: Well, sure, I have to respect that.
Because like I say, you know, 2,000 years a lightning
bolt has never hit anybody for an opinion, has it?
DICK: No, it hasn't. And I'm glad you
appreciate that. Because I --
0. '2
47
DAVID: Be sure and read Jeremiah 30 though.
DICK: Jeremiah 30.
DAVID: Yeah. It says the fierce anger of
the Lord shall not return until he's performed the
intents of his heart. In the latter days you shall
consider it perfectly.
DICK: All right. I'll consider that.
Listen, get that done if you will. And let's, let's
continue to march --
DAVID: I'm back on it.
DICK: -- let's continue to march here. And
I hope you're making some, some good progress here.
Because we're all eagerly awaiting --
DAVID: What was you telling Steve, I hadn't
written 10 words?
. DICK: No, that's what I said. I bet you
haveP't written 10 words.
DAVID: Laughing.! Okay.
DICK: Why don't you -- you want to send out
a copy of what you've written now?
DAVID: Sure. Let me put it on my --
DICK: Laughing.!
DAVID: -- where's our copy machine at,
Steve? Could you turn the lights back on real quick?
DICK: Well, that's -- I'm going to note this
date. What date is this anyhow? This is the --
O O *
48
DAVID: This is the 16th.
DICK: This is the 16th at what time is it in
the morning here?
DAVID: What time is it?
DICK: And I'm going to say you have one
chapter written in your epistle there.
DAVID: 3:30 or 4.
DICK: Yeah. You've
and again we're going to await
I'm going to, I'm going to let
you get on that. Truthfully I
that. Because there are a lot
be interested in what --got one chapter written.
the rest of them. And
you go. And you get,
am waiting to, to read
of us that are going to
DAVID: Well, I hope you do.
DICK:
then we'll make
we gee and what we hear.
DAVID: Okie doke.
DICK:
DAVID: Hey, that's,
ever exercise. we can possibly
DICK:-- what you have to say there. And
some decisions based on, on what, what
Is that fair enough?
that's the last fairness
All right. Well, you, you tell Steven
that he better get on with his editing job or whoever
is doing that. And, and --
DAVID: You want to talk to Steve here now?
DICK: Yeah, put him on for a minute.
0 » 0 ,
49
DAVID: Okay. See you later, Dick. Bye.
DICK: Bye.
STEVE: Hello, Dick.
DICK: Get in there with, and get that
editing done, will you?
STEVE: Well, I've been trying. Honestly.
DICK: All right. Well, I don't want to hold
you up any longer to keep, to keep you going here. But
use some of those skills that, and manipulate some of
those of words that David's got there on the paper, you
know. And take a look at --
STEVE: Well, what did you think, Dick? I
mean what you heard or what -,
DICK: Well, you know, I've always been
interested in talking to both you guys, you know. I'd
love to be able to talk to you not under these
I
conditions.
STEVE: I mean is he as bad as the picture
that's developed? Do you really, you think he is
manipulating all of us though, huh?
DICK: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
STEVE: Okay. Well --
DICK: Absolutely. Very strong-willed man.
Very, very -- and obviously he's got very strong
convictions and he, he sells those convictions very
well. And then -- and that's not a derogatory remark
Q Q»
S0
at all.
STEVE: Yeah, I know. I, I believe that. I
believe that.
DICK: He, he does very well what he does.
And that's not to say I believe him.
STEVE: Right.
DICK: And you know, obviously given the
numbers you have out there are a lot of other folks
that probably don't believe him either. There may well
be a lot more that will believe him when he's done with
this. I don't know. But the fact of the matter is,
Steve, just in summary we've got to resolve that, you
know --
STEVE: Yeah, I know.
DICK: -- the events. And, and we, we can't
do anything else until --
Q srsvs: I know.
DICK: -- that's done. And that's what we've
got to do. That's what I'm here to do. And, and
that's what you're going to have to do at, at some
point in time. A
STEVE : Right . y
DICK: And you know, to delay it isn't going
to --
STEVE: Well --
O
DICK: -- accomplish anything.
Q ~ O
51
STEVE: Well, you can know I'm not trying to
go out of my way to delay it. I am not --
DICK: Well, I hear what you're saying.
STEVE: -- amused. I'm not.
DICK: I hear what you're saying. Listen.
STEVE: Because I, I believe -- listen. I
really do agree with like Jack Zimmerman and so forth
that it would be to my advantage to come out sooner.
It would have been to my advantage even, even now
versus say a week from now. And I totally agree with
the guy. And that's why on one side I was telling you
I am anxious to do it and get it done. On the other
hand I still -- well, you got to hear him. And I'm
still convinced he has something there. I do.
DICK: Well --
.. STEVE: But so you -- but you know, at the
sameitime I'm hoping that this is it and that it will
be done.
DICK: Well, I don't know what he's told you.
But I, my guess is that he's convinced that, that he
can represent you very successfully in court.
STEVE: Yeah, he does. He believes he can.
DICK: And you know, that's the kind of
attorney you need and you want. Again, I have not
heard what he said, and I have not been here while some
of these things have gone on.
Q~ Q
52
STEVE: Right. Um-hum.
DICK: But you know, your attorney is the guy
that ultimately you're going to have to listen to.
STEVE: Um-hum.
DICK: And you're going to have to make
judgments based on the information he provides to you.
And my guess is that he probably told you a lot of the
same things that we did in terms of constitutional
guarantees and those kinds of things.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
DICK: So you know, we have, we've tried to
be, to be truthful with you. And, and for whatever
reason you've rejected a lot of what we've had to say.
And, and I would guess that your attorney --
STEVE: Like, like what do you mean? Like
what? J
; DICK: well, I mean obviously we weren't a
lot of influence on you in terms of, of these
proceedings that are going to follow at least
STEVE: Well, no, you -- on the contrary,
that's not really true. What you've said I have not
really disagreed. I, I have believed, and I never had
a problem with really what you are saying, what your
intents are and what you believe is going to happen.
I, I believe you believe. And I think to some degree
Umvstnm.
0» at
53
I, I -- like what I said about judges. I'm
not so sure personally, you know, how right on the
money they always are. But that's neither here nor
there. I mean one still has to do like going through
the system like you have to do it. But at the same
time, you know, it's always been this time element with
me believing in what I see presented from that Bible by
David. So you know, there's never been any other thing
there but that. That time --
End of Tape #235!
3
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #236
4/16/93
03:30 A.M. - 11:06 P.M.
0 as
Tape 236!2
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- say that, but I, I found
it maybe a little upbeat that I see something there
now. You know, it's, it's that he's got some kind of
an answer. He's now working on it. And when it
started that day, I mean, I didn't even get to spend
any time with him that day because he had those papers
scattered around. He actually, Dick, he actually
didn't even want to talk with DeGuerin. He said he was
so dizzy. And it took him awhile to come to the phone.
So, I see - like whether you believe that or not, I
can't help that.
DICK: No. I accept what you say, Steve, and
I -- and, and I hope that that's true and I believe
Umtivstnm.
. STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is. But, you know,
again, though -- but I, I'm like you are in that I even
- I don't know myself how long it's going to take. I
see what he's doing with that first seal.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said he's ready on the
second, but I haven't even seen the first one. Myself
I haven't even -- so, I'm being totally, you know,
frank with you.
DICK: Well, why don't you do some research
on it and get over there and try to assist him as best
0 I O
you can?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I did, before, you
know, before I talked to you about it. That's -- I
think it was like 10:00 tonight. I'm losing track of
time. But I think it was around 10. I again
suggested, as Rick did to me earlier in the day, as I
had thought from the beginning, you know, why not just
speak it into a cassette recorder and then give it to
me. I'll just sit down, or one of these secretaries
that can type so fast, and take it from there. But --
DICK: It would be a lot faster and a lot
easier.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know it. But he says no
He says he's got to develop it as it comes to him and
he'll write it down. So --
H DICK: Well, for me, it's a lot easier to
devélop things over a tape recorder --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, it is for me also.
DICK: -- than it is to write, but --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is for me too.
DICK: Well, Steve, I, I hope that you get
moving on this thing and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I thought --
DICK: I think that your --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I probably should
turn in so I can get at it --
0 O"
4
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - in a couple hours and --
DICK: Get that handled and, you know, get
that thing prepared and you, you assist him as best you
can and let's get this thing going.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I am. You know,
that's why I'm -- I'm there all -- constantly I'm going
back to the, to the room where he's at there and, and
trying to get anything he's got. And I'm anxious to
see it anyway. I'd like to see --
DICK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- it in written form. So.
DICK: Fair enough. Well, listen, we'll --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- we'll be talking to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
F
} DICK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You, you know, it really --
I really appreciate talking to you again after all this
time and --
DICK: Well, I'm, I'm back here to get
this --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you're hoping for
the best for me and, believe me, I want the best for
you and you know what I mean by that. So --
DICK: I understand. And, and it'll --
O
STEVE
DICK:
out, but you've
STEVE
ADICK:
STEVE
DICK:SCHNEIDER: Okay.
- all be, it'll all be straightened
got to take the --
SCHNEIDER: Right.
-- first step and
SCHNEIDER: I understand.
-- and the first step is going to be
the, the hard one. After that --
STEVE
DICK:
works out
system as
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
H STEVE
i
DICK:
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
Henry?
HENRY:
STEVESCHNEIDER: Right.
-- I think you'll find out that it
and that you won't be disappointed in, in the
it works.
SCHNEIDER: Well, I hope so.
All right, Steve.
SCHNEIDER: Thanks, Dick.
You take it easy.
SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
Bye now.
iiiii
Steve?
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
Henry.
SCHNEIDER: Henry. How are you doing,
Just fine. How are you?
SCHNEIDER: A little tired.
HENRY
STEVE
working.
HENRY:
STEVE
They didn't run
HENRY
STEVE
you heard about
course.
HENRY
STEVE6
The phone's working then?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, the phone's are still
Did you just get up?
SCHNEIDER: They, they didn't -- yeah.
the lines over or anything yet.
Yeah. I hope not.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, other than running --
them running into the building, of
What now?
SCHNEIDER: Are you going to, are you
going to announce that in the press conference, how one
of the Bradleys
child.just about injured a person and, and a
- HENRY: Who, who, who, who got injured?
s'rz:vz SCHNEIDER: There was someone who had a
bed right by the wall where the Bradley came running
into and moved the outside wall by I don't know how --
I haven't looked at it again. I looked at it last
night. But they caved the wall at least to some
degree.
HENRY: Um-hum. And what time was this?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think that was -- what
time was it? It might have been about three-something.
HENRY: 3:00 in the morning?
.- "92_ ~
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: And, and who got injured?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't want to say just
yet, but --
HENRY: Tell me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Maybe they can stand out o
the porch and you can take a look at them.
HENRY: Did you say two people were injured?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: There was a child -- there
-- first, there was an adult actually laying down. I
don't know if you have heat sensors, thermal sensors,
or whatever, so I don't know if they're accurate or
whatever, but they ran into a place where there were
individuals that were laying down sleeping.
HENRY: How, how old are these people that
got hurt?
4'J STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, do you, do you want to
tell them in the press conference or do you want us to
put out a banner or do you want us, do you want us --
HENRY: I, I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: to fly --
HENRY: - I would like some more specif-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, let me say, Henry.
Do you want --
HENRY: I would like some more specifics so
that --
Y 192
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
to --
HENRY: -- I can
STEVE SCHNEIDER:8
Do you want, do you want us
address this, Steve.
-- surprise you like you're
surprising us? Or what, what kind of a game do you
want to play right now?
HENRY: I'm not t
STEVE SCHNEIDER
HENRY: -- game
some information from you I
know
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
HENRY:
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
HENRY: -- in the
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
guy; --
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
phones, that you --
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
talking.
HENRY:
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
laying with hisrying to play any --
Do you --
I'm trying to, to solicit
Steve, so that we can, you
It was Grah--
-- deal with it in the --
-- it was Graham --
proper fashion.
It was Graham Craddock, the
-- that's always fixing the
-- and I can keep on
Okay. And who else?
That's the guy who was
head against that wall.
O O
HENRY: Okay. And who else?9
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then there was the
chi-- and Cyrus himself.
HENRY: Okay. And, and tell me the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He say - do you know that
-- and -- that he -- Cyrus, he was --
HENRY: In order for me to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Listen. Cyrus was going to
actually -- he had two pictures he wanted to go out to
you yesterday with that cassette.
HENRY: In order for me to address this, I
have to be very specific with the bosses. Give me as
much specific information so that I can deal with this.
Please. ,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that all he's said so
far is"that he is very sore. Appar-- I don't know how
-- he had his head against the wall and his shoulders
and so forth. I mean, you know, that's where his head
was laying in the bed that he was in. And Cyrus, I
don't know where at the time he was, but I don't -- I,
I think he's more shaken than -- you know, more being
afraid and all that than anything.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I don't, I don't
believe that he was hurt bad.
HENRY: Okay. And it -- and Graham, the same
I O
10
thing? How, how much --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think he's --
HENRY: -- of an injury?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- bruised. I think, you
know --
HENRY: Bruised.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- he's bruised and he's
quite sore. I don't, I don't know how, you know -- in
fact, he went to lay back down again because he said he
wasn't feeling too well. So, I haven't --
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I have left him be until
I was going to wake him up minutes ago just to see how,
how he is now.
HENRY: Okay. I want to follow up on this,
Steve,.because we're not --
é STEVE SCHNEIDER: When that happened I was
sitting --
HENRY: -- and this -- and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I want to tell you
something though, Henry. When that happened, you know,
I, I would have thought maybe something major was going
to take place all around. I mean, not, not just -- you
know, I just mean by everybody that was inside and all
of it. You know, doing that kind of thing might end
this thing like real quick.
HENRY: Well --11
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm hoping not myself, you
know, but if that's the way it's to be -- you know, I
accept anything.
HENRY: Well, you know -- well, part of the
problem here is the length of time that this thing has
gone on.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's -- you know,
from day one I told you, Henry, you guys can bring in
the Abrams and right -- run right on through the
building.
HENRY: Well, I understand
STEVE SCHNEIDER
HENRY: -- that
STEVE SCHNEIDER:we don't
that that
we don'tSeriously. You can do that.
can --
even object.
HENRY: Steve, I'm - you know, I'm not, I'm
not discussing any of that and, and -- in terms of who
2
wants to do what. What I am saying is this is a
problem, you know, for us in terms of we're over here
trying to be spokespeople on your behalf --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, I want to -- you
know, I'm trying to be real kind and, and nice and
courteous to you right now, but, you know, when you
call all the time about seeing someone out on the roof
and all that, you know, that means diddly when you're
doing those -- the kind of things like you're doing.
O I
12
You know, I'm -- do you want us to put a banner out
before this all ends, I mean, really ends just so the
public can see one last statement maybe? I mean, you
know, it's up to you, like you said. I --
HENRY: Well, I, I'm not, I'm not --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- want to make some --
HENRY: I'm not really sure --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- kind of a statement --
yes, I know. You, you try to detect or read whatever
into it you want.
HENRY: Is this a threat or, or, or something
that you're going to do something? You're not --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You read it how you'd --
HENRY: -- thinking of doing --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- like, Henry.
, HENRY: I'd like to read it the way that you
meaéuit.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to leave it --
let's leave it as a riddle for you, if that's the way
it is.
92 HENRY: You, you know, it's very difficult
for us, as the people that are in touch with you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Here's, here -- let me just
say it this way. I'm, I'm making -- I'm talking to you
in behalf of, let's say, Craddock.
HENRY: Okay.
0 Il 13
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And when you're doing those
kind of things, you know, everything that we've talked
about -- so far, I have tried to do this in a civilized
way until the day -- that I've told you from the
beginning that we all -- the majority, except for some
that have gone out, have waited upon David as we had
before you -- before -- not you, before the ATF came to
murder us. And since that day, we have stilled
continued to do the same thing believing, as in the
past, and he's always come through, always has. When
he has said wait, wait, wait with other things, always
it's come through.
HENRY: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's never been that long.
This has been pretty close to about some of the times
like in the past that he ha-- we have waited or he has,.
waited on answers. And we have seen like the beginning
of éhose answers. But if at the same time you want to
hurry the process up, I'm afraid it's going to have the
opposite effect.
HENRY: Well, I -- you know, I, I agree with
you in that, in that we are not trying, from this, from
this side, to do anything. If that happened, I am not
aware of what it is that took place. I will, you
know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I --
IQ I
14
HENRY: -- talk to the commanders --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I would --
HENRY: -- to try to find out what --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let me tell you this, let
me tell you this, though. I'm not -- you know, and
that time of night, when something like that happens,
I'm not in control of anybody. I mean, they're able
and willing and -- they, they may just up and start
something and I will know nothing about it till already
it's in, in the process. There's nothing I could have
done. Seriously. I myself had already laid down, just
started to go to sleep, when that took place.
HENRY: Okay. I just, I just got a note
here. Apparently, this was not an intentional
situation. Now, you know, why it happened, I don't
know. HIt should not have happened. That's the only
thing I can tell you. This was not an intentional
thing. In other words, there was no instructions, you
know, for any of the tactical people to do anything.
And this is not a situation to try to hurry anybody up
or to, or to incite or to cause any problems.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'll try to pass that
around here. But at the same time, you know, as I came
over to the phone here, a number of these guys said,
you know, you weren't here to tell us, so we're, we're
leaving it upon ourselves. Something like that happens
~
I
15
again, we'll just have to use our judgment. I'm going
-- I'm -- what do you do -- I mean, seriously, what do
you do in a situation like that usually? I mean, I'm
just --
HENRY: I understand what you're saying.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- surprised.
HENRY: I understand what you're saying. You
know, I'm hoping that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I'm just one person
here --
HENRY: But the longest --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- trying to do it your
way, which I know you want it done yesterday, and I
told you I don't blame you. I can see it myself. But,
again, I --
HENRY: You're --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It still comes down to we
believe in a God that you people don't understand.
HENRY: Well, I, I, I, I don't think that
that's what it is. A -- if you're saying if you
believe in a God that we don't understand, we believe
in the -- in a God, and I don't think that there's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. Look at --
HENRY: -- more than one God.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: N0 -- oh, Henry, just
take --
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRYO
16
Now, you may belie--
SCHNEIDER: Henry --
-- believing in David --
SCHNEIDER: Henry --
-- and -- V
SCHNEIDER: -- no, no, no.
And --
SCHNEIDER: No. No. Look --
-- one of the things --
SCHNEIDER: -- two things.
-- that has happened here, Steve --
let, let me just say this. Let me just say this. One
of the things that has, that has happened here is you
have used a lot of, a lot of good judgment and
restraint and that -- you know, and we appreciate that.
We have tried to do the same thing on this end from,
from the --
§
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I think SO.
HENRY: -- from the point of the negotiators.
The fact that this thing has gone a long time, you
know, we're no-- it's not a situation of blaming
anybody or anything. It's a matter of fact. You know,
as a result of, of David's indecision initially not to
come out -- first he said he was going to come out, and
then for whatever reason he decided to wait, that's
fine. Okay. But -- and everybody has tried to use the
O O
l7
best, you know, judgment possible in terms of trying to
defuse any potential situations. You know, you, you've
told me about some of the things that, that have
happened with people, you know, giving fingers and, and
doing stuff like that, none of which is professional
and we don't condone that. '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe that.
HENRY: Okay? Now, we would like very much
to see a very peaceful resolution to this thing.
Honestly, we would. Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, if you could have
told -- if you could have -- like the reaction of
Zimmerman. I was surprised to read that paper to
DeGuerin on the phone the other day.
HENRY: What, what, what, what are you
talking about?
; STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, I'm talking about
the paper whereas he said now, finally got -- finally,
he knows what he's doing or what he's waiting for,
meaning that he's to write these manuscripts out and
send them out.
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And that's the first thing
I had heard about it. So, at least for me, I see -- I
mean, I've been waiting here also upon his God,
wondering what it is I'm waiting for. None of us have
I or
l8
really known.
HENRY: I see.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But it's been like that in
the past also. But it's always been like right around
the corner from where you get -- like the waiting gets
tiring. You can hardly --
HENRY: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- take it. It's like
right around the corner. There's always in the past --
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- from him been some
awesome Bible studies or very clear answers.
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, that's why I'm saying,
for the waiting thing, for us it's not something new or
unusual. I do understand that in this very odd,
bizérre situation it would be to you. But like I'm
saying, if you ever -- if you have a concordance there,
sometime just look up the word "wait" throughout the
Bible. It's quite -- especially in a place called
Zephaniah, and then Chapter 3, verses 5 on, and you'll
see something very plain and clear that you can
associate to this period of time. Also, how has God
always worked? Second Peter, Chapter 1, verses 19
through 21. He chooses men and women, inspires them by
his spirit. They're able to write under divinity and
O O
19
they'll be able -- they're able to reveal. So, I --
associate that together when you're thinking about us
and why we're waiting here. But just take a
concordance. Look up the word "wait" and --
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you'll be amazed at --
all the prophecies talk -- wait, wait, wait. So, it's,
it's not unusual to us. It's something we've looked at
and we've been preparing for for a long time.
HENRY: Um-hum. Steve, let me ask you
something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
HENRY: Is there any chance that anybody else
would want to come out? The reason that I'm asking you
that is because now we're in a waiting posture for him
to write the -- this manuscript. If -- it would really
help, I'm telling you, it would really help if we could
get some people to come out. You know, we would say,
look, this is a, this is a show of, of good faith on
their part. They're sincere in what they're saying.
Everybody in there may not know exactly what they're
waiting for, but they're waiting for David, whom they
believe in, to give them a final word. It's been well
over two weeks and we've had -- we've seen nothing from
that end. Is there any chance that, that you could
make a, you know, a --
I O
STEVE
HENRY :
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I can ask
HENRY: -- in trying to see
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- people
HENRY: -- there's some way
we can make something happen that it,
from our perspective, it would really
but -- _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you
can't -- there - the other day, like20
SCHNEIDER: Well, I could ask --
-- and take a renewed interest --
a number of --
if
that we can, that
it -- you know,
help, you know,
know, like I, I
yesterday,
someone did something that I did not like at all. I --
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- said if that -- anything
like that happened again that that -- any individual
would definitely be going out. And like even today, I
P,can;-- I haven't for a few days asked
like I used to frequently --
HENRY: Sure.
STEVE
HENRY: Sure.
STEVE _
They, they know that.
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVEanyone, but --
SCHNEIDER: -- daily ask people --
SCHNEIDER: -- if they want to go out.
SCHNEIDER: Like those three
individuals that ended up deciding because -- that once
3.
21
those letters came out -- they never said no, but what
they said is they want to wait a little longer now.
So, I never ended up pushing it. In fact, one of them
told me to back off, so I decided just to leave him be.
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But they had - one or two
of them had -- I had detected something and I heard
three people talking, and from that, that's what I had
to do, it's that maybe they wanted to go out and so I
was going to encourage it. But since then I really
haven't asked anybody if they want to go out, but I
sure can do that again and again.
HENRY: Okay. Now, do me one more favor,
Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
. HENRY: Tell me exactly where in the -- in
whai portion of the building or where it was that, that
the Bradley hit.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let's see. As you're
looking to the front of the building where the
entrances, where we go in and out at --
HENRY: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: From there, to your left as
you're looking at the building, it would be -- let's
see, how many feet down? I'm a poor judge of distance,
but I would guess --
. . i
22
HENRY: Do you know where the cars are
parked?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes. It --
HENRY: Is it beyond that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- probably, probably --
HENRY: Beyond that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I haven't -- I didn't look
outside in relation to where the cars are, but it seems
like it's -- must be somewhere where the last car, the
black one on the left is, somewhere straight on from
there.
HENRY: Okay. And he -- the Bradley just
came straight or was it making a turn or does anybody
know? y
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I can't -- it, it seems
like it came straight into the building.
HENRY: And went right in?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, it came in
enough to -- at least -- I should really go take a look
at it, but --
HENRY: Yeah. Go take a look at it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hang on a minute.
HENRY: Okay.
Pause.!
HENRY: G0 ahead.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's -- I would say
0 92
23
it was probably about 80 to 100 feet from the entrance
to the left, and I just looked and it was knocked in at
least a foot.
HENRY: How, how mu-- how much of the wall?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It appears it was probably
about as wide as the Bradley is. I don't know.
HENRY: And it, and it pushed it right in?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: About a - did, did it actually break
the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's hard to te-- you know,
because it's got -- there is whatever it's called,
plyboard or whatever else, of --
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- course, that's broke.
- HENRY: Hmm.
swsvs scnmaznam And it seems like some of
the wood was moved.
HENRY: Okay. Okay. Well, I will -- I, I
appreciate the information. Believe me, we will, we
will take this to the commanders and the commanders
will, you know, will deal with it, because this is not
something that we're -- that we want. Believe me,
Steve. I'm --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: -- I'm being as sincere with you as I
O I O I
24
can be. We don't want, we don't want this to happen.
we don't want things like that to, to occur. It was
not intentional. It should not have happened.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I believe you.
Okay. I'll leave - it's, it's the daily now, so -~
HENRY: Oh, okay.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: -- 1'11 get off the phone
for now and be in contact.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay?
HENRY: I appreciate your, you know, your
offer on this and I am going to hold you to this.
Please make a sincere effort to see if we can get some
people out. It really will make a big difference.
Believe me.
h STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, as always, when you
request I've always --
§ HENRY: I know you have.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - done that because, you
know, I --
HENRY: I know you have.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- for myself, of course,
you know, I've got to make my decision. But for them,
I'll always encourage or ask.
HENRY:| Okay, And I appreciate your calling
in.
O I
25
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
HENRY: I'll talk to you later.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
HENRY: Byebye.
iiiii
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.]
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
HENRY: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
HENRY: Henry.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Henry.
HENRY: How are we doing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm doing fine. How is
yourself?
i
E HENRY: Okay. We're trying to do some things
at our end, you know, to kind of facilitate some -- you
know, a couple of situations. We addressed the issues
that we spoke about this morning.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
HENRY: And let me ask you a few questions,
because it'll help our, our situation, you know, from
this end.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: Is, is David - is it your perception
that David has finished the first seal?26
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I -- you know, he was --
well, you know, what happened last night, as you
probably already are aware, first he spent three, three
hours on the phone with Clint. And then that incident
happened. I went to bed, I think -- I believe it was
like about midnight, somewhere around there. I'm
trying to remember. And I said to you this morning I
thought the incident happened at 3, but I was mistaken.
It was 1:30. I remembered --
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- after I told you. And
then we came down and talked with Dick for some time.
I got -- I think that it was like 3:30. I, I don't
remember exactly the time. I know I didn't go to bed
till after 4. But after the incident happened, they
camé and got me, so I had to go down and, of course,
look at it and see how Graham was and --
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I've rechecked since
then. I, I -- the child, you know, Cyrus, I, I, I
found out, you know, he wasn't hurt other than his
feelings and --
HENRY: GOOd.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- all that kind of
business. So. ' '
iO»
27
HENRY: Good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But he -- what's his name
-- Graham's got a head-- a pretty good headache. He's
got a few bruises, but that's about it. It hit right
where his bed and head was. His head is like inches
from the wall itself. So, it, it moved him for at
least a foot.
HENRY: So, he got conked on the head.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I -- it's nothing
major. So --
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, the funny part is
-- I found out later. I went back after I talked to
you and I went and talked to him and others and, and I
guess he, he slept right through it until his name,
name was called.
HENRY: Laughter.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I mean, I couldn't help
but laugh about that myself. I mean, some people --
HENRY: Did you call him a hard-head?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I think so. So, I
guess he's -- more than anything, I think -- I can't
even say the guy was surprised, other than the person
that was calling him.
O Oi
28
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But --
HENRY: Do you think that David is working on
the first seal or the second seal?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I haven't -- you know,
that's what I was -- that's right. You asked me that.
And what happened was then -- so, I turned in. It was
sometime after 4. I don't know when he turned in. I,
I went to bed and he was still up. So, I don't know if
he started working on it then -- or I haven't seen him
yet. This is the latest, you know, where the day's
gone by where I've not seen him. So -- and I, I just
went up there about, oh, I5 minutes ago, listened by
the door. It was very, very quiet. So, I don't think
that he's awake right now.
~ HENRY: Okay.
g srsvs SCHNEIDER: But, you know, last night,
between the one conversation, the other one with Dick,
the incident, you know, it took a lot of time where he
would have been working, I know, for sure.
HENRY: Okay. Well, let's do this then.
srsvs SCHNEIDER:_ Okay.
HENRY: Do me a -- do me some favors. Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Let's hear them.
HENRY: Okay. First of all, find out where
he is. Is he working on the first -- is he still on
|, 29
the first seal? Is he working on the second seal?
Okay. And, secondly, do you -- see what your
perception is or, or, or ask him: does he believe that
each seal, the second, the third, fourth, fifth, sixth,
and seventh, are they going to take about the same
amount of time and is he going to -- you know, are they
going to be as long -- that is to say --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't think so, Henry,
because --
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you know, what I already
know myself with the seals, like, say, one, two, three,
four, five, they're all different. And I think -- like
the fourth seal, as you'll learn, is a very deep seal.
It's, it's one of the deepest of the first four, in
fact, is the deepest. The first one, I -- it would
seem like he's got his done. He hasn't handed it to
me.é I don't know why yet.
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I think he said there
was like somewhere around -- I, I don't know if he
counted real carefully, but he said it's between 28 and
30 pages or something like that, he told me, and --
HENRY: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I know I saw the papers
all over the place and --
In O» t
30
HENRY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I asked him when he
wanted to give them to me. He says, well, just, just
not, just not yet. Apparently, he wants to make sure
that it's, it's real clear, I mean, his thoughts are
down, and --
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said he was already
work-- he's already working on the second one.
HENRY: He did say that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he did.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know if he, he
means he's, he's just begun it or what, but he said he
started working on the second. I heard him say that.
. HENRY: Okay.
; STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I, I've been waiting to
get in there this morning. And now, of course, here it
is five after two and I still haven't seen him. So,
I'm waiting to hear -- or see if he's going to give it
to me or whatever else.
HENRY: Okay. Additionally -- well, you said
that the fourth seal is probably the deepest one, so
that's probably going to be the longest one.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that -- I wonder
myself what he's going to do with that. In the past
O~ O:
31
when he's given studies on that -- I mean, I know
basically where he goes, what he does. And -- but
something like that is very -- going to be very
difficult. I would have difficulty in putting that
together. But, of course, if it's originally, like
everything else that he's given us, he's -- he does --
honestly, he gets very deep. If you ever got into --
if you had some -- a good background in the Bible and
you sat down with him, he -- he'll go beyond things
that you've ever dreamed possible. But that -- in
saying that, I guess how I'm reacting to that is that
I'm not sure what he's going to do to elaborate on
paper.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, because you can
always express in words and respond to people's
reaotions, questions. So, that's why I'm not, I'm not
certain either just how he would go about that.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But he's never seemed to
have difficulties if he's directed to do something.
You know, I mean, it happens. Like that -- for
instance, those letters came out actually pretty
quickly.
HENRY: Yes, they did.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I went upstairs. I came
O" I T»
32
back. And here he, here he hands me the things. What?
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was, I was quite
surprised. .
HENRY: Okay. One of the things that we, you
know, would like, you know, from our end to try to
facilitate, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not promising you
anything on this, Steve. It's just, you know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: -- something that we'd like to, to
try to work on, okay, from our end. It's, you know,
it's the ribbon for the typewriter --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: -- for that manual typewriter that
you got.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Right.
j HENRY: Okay. What kind of a typewriter is
J
it?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It belongs to Wayne Martin,
and I haven't actually even seen it.
HENRY: Do me a favor.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But -- okay.
HENRY: Go over there and look at it, get me
the, get me the make --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: You know. Get me everything about
0 0
33
the typewriter that you can get for me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Henry, what, what's
happened is - remember I told you we had one that
operates on batteries? I think it's six C -- D-sized
batteries. Graham worked on it all yesterday, last
night, and he says it's not working properly. So,
that, it would seem like, would go the fastest. So, I
think Judy would prefer -- or whoever else would be
doing the typing -- would probably prefer to use that
one.
HENRY: But if, but if it's not working --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's true. That's
true .
HENRY: What, what about the, what about the,
the other one, the manual one?
, STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. That I can go -- I
donit know anything about it. I mean, I don't know
what brand -- I just know that when I was asking --
when he first, you know, came up with this thing about
that he's going to publish these things, well, the
first thing that came into my mind is what do we have
around here still --
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- for typewriters,
because --
HENRY: Yeah.
0 0
34
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- of course, we're heavy
into computers here. And the computers we have, we've
always used those, you know --
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- with WordPerfect --
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and all that.
HENRY: Yeah. N
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But now -- that's why I, I
started looking around, and I found out that we have, I
believe, about four typewriters. I think -- I was told
two manuals, but --
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the only one I know for
a fact is that there is one here. I don't know about
the second. I have it - but I think Wayne knows where1.
the/one is.
4
I HENRY: Okay. Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: S0.
HENRY: -- do some research.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: And, and when you have the answers to
that, call me back.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: And, and if you can, if it's
possible, let me know where he is with, with that first
seal.
STEVE
because --0* or
35
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'll try to do that,
HENRY: And --
STEVE
myself.SCHNEIDER: -- of course, I'm curious
HENRY: Yeah. And then, and then, you know,
give me all the information on the ribbon and let me
work on that from this end. But, but get all of that
ready for me so
STEVE
HENRY:
completely.
STEVE
to you. R
HENRY:
f STEVE2 HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY:
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
She'll give you,that --
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
-- I can work on it, you know,
SCHNEIDER: Sure. Okay. I'll get back
You give me a call.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
Thanks.
SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
Bye.
iiiii
Hello?
SCHNEIDER: Hello. Henry?
Um-hum.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Judy's right here.
oh, something about the typewriters.
36
I guess it's down to two of them that she would be
using.
here realHENRY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We checked them all over
quick. And, and here she is.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Hello?
HENRY: Hi, Judy.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Hi. Who's this?
HENRY: Henry.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Henry. How are you doing?
HENRY: Just fine. How are you?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Good.
HENRY: How's the finger?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Good. What I have is a
Sharp-word processor. The number is PA --
O
3HENRY: Hold on. Hold on. PA --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Dash W14lO.
HENRY: W14l0?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah. That's the name of
the machine.
PA-W14l0.HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: It's a Sharp word processor,
HENRY: Now, is that a, a manual?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: A manual? No. It's
Q: I»
37
electric. But we've got it hooked up to batteries.
HENRY: Okay. And what do you need with
that?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: I need -- I just -- I had a
Smith Corona before and I just traded it for this one.
So, I need a couple of ribbon cassettes.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: And it's ZX dash --
HENRY: Hold on. Hold on. V --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: No, ZX.
HENRY: Okay. z --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Zebra.
HENRY: -- x --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Dash 3CS2.
HENRY: 3CX --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: S.
g HENRY: s.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Sam. 2. Yeah.
HENRY: 2?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah. A couple of those
ribbon cassettes --
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: -- and I'd like two
printwheels, an Orator and a Script.
HENRY: Two printwheels?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Printwheels, yeah. So, I
O O *
38
could be able to change the font. Orator, which is
large, and the Script, which is -- you know what script
is.
HENRY: Um-hum. Let me make sure. Let's
see. We need two ribbon cassettes. That's a, a ZX --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
HENRY: -- 3C --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
HENRY: S2.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: And then I don't know what
the number of the printwheels are for, for that
machine, but they'll know at whatever store you go to.
HENRY: Okay. The, the ribbons should
correspond to the Sharp --
; JUDY SCHNEIDER: Machine, yeah.
HENRY: -- machine. Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah, everything. They
might change the numbers, but they'll know the machine.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: And, then, the lift-off
correction tape, I'd need --
HENRY: What now?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Lift-off correction tape.
HENRY: Okay.
39
JUDY SCHNEIDER: For the -- I think it says
PA-3100 series.
HENRY: 3--
JUDY SCHNEIDER: 3100.
HENRY: 3100.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Series?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: And it's, I think -- I have
an old box of ZX --
HENRY: ZX.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: - dash 4LF.
HENRY: 4LS SiC!.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: 4LF, yeah. For --
- HENRY: Now, what is this last thing?
k JUDY SCHNEIDER: That's the number for the
correction tape.
HENRY: Oh, okay. Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Okay. So, that takes care
of that machine. Then there's another one. It's a
Casio-- it's called a Casiowriter.
HENRY: Okay. Let me ask you this. Which
one are you going to use? Do you --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: I'm going to use the Sharp.
HENRY: -- prefer one or the other?
I~ Ci
JUDY SCHNEIDER: I'm going to use the Sharp
but we are -- that ones, you know, hooked up to
batteries. So, if our batteries get messed up or
something --
HENRY: Okay. And the second one is a
manual?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: It's a,
operated typewriter.it's a battery-
HENRY: The second one?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: It'S a battery-operated
typewriter and I, I may need somebody to help me out,
you know.
HENRY: Oh, I see what you're saying. Have
somebody else type --
J JUDY SCHNEIDER:
HENRY: - at
JUDY SCHNEIDER:
HENRY: -- else
JUDY SCHNEIDER:
It's not a word processorYeah.
be typing something --
Yeah.
Okay.
And it's just a typewriter
So.
HENRY: A typewriter.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: And the number is CW-16.
. "' !
41
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: And I need -- oh, boy, those
ribbon cartridges are real small. Maybe about four
ribbon cartridges.
HENRY: Four ribbon cartridges.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: And some correction ribbon.
HENRY: And correction ribbon.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Uhhuh. And 12 D batteries.
HENRY: Twelve D --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: - batteries?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
HENRY: How much does it take?
- JUDY SCHNEIDER: How many does it take?
g HENRY: Um-hum.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Four.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Okay. And, then, here's
another request. Since we don't have electricity and I
was trying to type last night in the dark, and a candle
is not real good on my eyes. If you could get a, a
battery-operated lamp? I know they have them at Wal-
Mart. They're like six dollars or something with a
battery. They're these little tiny plastic lamps and
42
you put a big square battery in them. I don't know
what size the battery is called. Otherwise, if you
can't handle that, get me a six-inch by two-inch
candle.
HENRY: Okay. Six-inch by two-inch candle.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Or a battery --
HENRY: Or a --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: -- operated lamp.
HENRY: Or a battery-operated lamp.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: They're camping lanterns
that they -- they're, they're not a lantern. They're
just -- they look like a little lamp.
HENRY: Okay. Okay.
' JUDY SCHNEIDER: I meant to get one before,
but;--
HENRY: Okay. Now, you know, I want you to
understand and I want -- you know, as I, as I told to
-- as I said to Steve --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
HENRY: -- you know, this is something that
we're -- you know, the negotiators are initiating.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Oh, okay.
HENRY: You know, we're going to try to sell
this to the bosses --
O I >
43
JUDY SCHNEIDER: I see.
HENRY: -- but, you know, you know --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Oh, whatever.
HENRY: -- we'll, we'll, we'll do the best
that we can.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I just realized after
he asked me that that I, I thought I had a bunch of
ribbons for the machine that I have, but I don't,
because it's from my old machine and I just traded it,
you know. It --
HENRY: Um-hum.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: -- sold it, the, the other
one.
HENRY: Okay. Okay. Now, tell me this. Do
you have a manual typewriter?
~ JUDY SCHNEIDER: I wouldn't be using a manual
typeyriter.
HENRY: No. Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: I'd rather handwrite it.
And --
HENRY: Okay. Okay. I just wanted --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: -- to check, just to make --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: -- sure if you --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: We have one, but --
I I ~
44
HENRY: -- if you wound up with some kind of
a problem, you know.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: I don't want to mess with
it.
HENRY: Okay. Now, do you know how far David
is with the, with the seals?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Well, I, I don't know how
much there is to go. You know?
HENRY: N0, no. .
JUDY SCHNEIDER: I don't know where he's on
the seals.
HENRY: I mean on the first one, on the first
one.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Do I - I just know what he
-- you know, what I've been doing already. So, I don't
know --
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: -- how far he is. I haven't
talked --
HENRY: And, and --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: -- to him yet today.
HENRY: And have you, have you been typing?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Okay. How far are you?
JUDY SCHNEIDER:' How -- well, that's what I'm
telling you. I don't know how far I'm into anything,
0 oi
45
you know.
HENRY: No. But I'm saying, you know, have
you typed half a page, three pages, ten pages?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: I've got some things on
disk, yeah.
HENRY: Okay. But would you say you have ten
pages, five pages?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Let's see. One, two, three
-- I've got a couple -- maybe a couple pages.
HENRY: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Well, let me
see what I can do from this in. Okay?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: And what I'm doing too is
I'm trying to get some of the scriptures that I know
he's going to be using, even though he hasn't told me,
I'm trying to get them on disk so I can just pull them
up. .
lg HENRY: Oh, okay. I see what you're saying.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: And then I'll insert what
his manuscript --
HENRY: Okay. So, you're typing some of that
ahead?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I'm just going ahead
on my own right now for -- till --
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: -- till he gives the word.
HENRY: Okay.
46
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Okay?
HENRY: Okay. Is --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Good idea, huh?
HENRY: Is, is Steve there?
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Is Steve here right now?
HENRY: Hmm. .
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Well, it's worship hour
right now. Do you --
HENRY: Oh, I thought it was --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: 3:00.
HENRY: Oh, yeah. Okay. Three.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Okay. Okay. Now, how, how --
JUDY SCHNEIDER: indiscernible!
_ HENRY: -- is your hand? Are you still able
to type even though --
; Unidentified voice in background not
disoernible.!
JUDY SCHNEIDER: I, I need to get off the
phone right now. I want to go study.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER BACKGROUND!: Don't
talk right indiscernible!.
HENRY: Fine.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: It's worship time right now
HENRY: Fine.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Okay?
47
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY SCHNEIDER: Appreciate it. Thanks.
HENRY: Um-hum. Bye.
tiiii
[Telephone ringing.]
RICK-1: Is it ringing now?
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: 10:56.
PHIL HENRY: Indiscernib1e.!
RICK-1: Yeah. who is this?
PHIL HENRY: This is Phil Henry, Philip
Henry. I guess you're requesting for Steve or David?
RICK-1: Yeah. Is Steve there?
PHIL HENRY: Yeah. Well, he, he gave me a
note about over an hour ago and he, he told me he
turned in. And he says if anyone rang that he'd ask
for you to ring first thing in the morning, like
quanter to nine. That's the time he gave.
RICK-1: Okay. What did the note say again?
PHIL HENRY: He said to ring -- if, if, if
you guys could ring in the morning at quarter till
nine, he'll be available then. He's gone to bed. He
went over to bed about over an hour ago
RICK-l: Uh-huh. .
PHIL HENRY: And with it being sabbath, but I
understand there's things we may need to talk tomorrow.
RICK-1: Okay. Well, maybe you can --
O~ O>
48
PHIL HENRY: No, the -- really, there isn't
anything I can give you. Who, who's speaking, anyway,
by the way?
RICK-1: Rick.
PHIL HENRY: Rick?
RICK-1: Yeah.
PHIL HENRY: Okay.
RICK-1: I think Steve has referred to me as
Rick-1. I'm not sure.
PHIL HENRY: Okay. Yeah. Well, there's
RICK1: I
wanted to talk to me. He's been --
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: --
days now, from what I understand.
A PHIL
speak to him in the morning?
2a --
think he had something about he
asking to talk to me for several
HENRY: I see. Would you be able to
RICK-1: Well, I'm going to be leaving at
midnight tonight, as a matter of fact, so --
PHIL HENRY: I see. Well, nothing I can
about that. But I hope the questions you have can
be passed on to the next negotiator.
RICK-1: Yeah. Well, one of the reasons
I called, I just heard on the news that, that they
reporting that the manuscript that David's working
had been finished.do
, can
why
were
on
0» 0»
PHIL
know anything49
HENRY: See, well -- actually, I don't
about that right now. I know that
they've been working on it a lot --
RICK
PHIL-1: Yeah.
HENRY: -- but I don't know exactly
where they're at right now. I don't think we've put
anything outside the windows but -- which, which could
indicate to the press that it's been finished.
RICK
PHIL
being said. I
RICK
you there?
PHIL
RICK
there?
PHIL
now.
RICK
PHIL
sabbath night.
RICK
PHIL
keep our minds
RICK
PHIL-1: Yeah.
HENRY: But as far as I know, it's not
think we'd be the first to know.
-1: Who, who else is in the room with
HENRY: Pardon?
-1: Who else is in the room with you
HENRY: There's no, no one around right
-1: Nobody is?
HENRY: with indiscernible! being
So --
-1: Um-hum.
HENRY: -- today we were just trying to
on the word and --
-1: Um-hum.
HENRY: -- that's it.
" ~ 1
50
RICK-1: So, so, you want us to - he wanted
us to call back in the morning, about what time?
PHIL HENRY: Yeah, that's right. Quarter to
nine.
RICK-1: A quarter to nine in the morning?
PHIL HENRY: Yeah. l
RICK1: Okay.
PHIL HENRY: All right.
RICK-1: Did you want to maybe knock on his
door just to tell him who's on the phone. Just since
I'm going to be leaving at midnight, I won't be able to
talk to him in the morning. I didn't know whether he
had something in particular that he wanted to discuss
or what. Just, you know, if he doesn't want to talk,
that's fine, but you might at least let him know that I
was calling and would be leaving.
Q PHIL HENRY: Yeah. Well, you see, he told
me, actually twice, see, because I, I'm in this general
area here. 4
RICK-1: Uh-huh.
' PHIL HENRY: And - and I if I could --
you know, see, he's been up all day. He's been trying
to get a lot of things out. He's been running up and
down the place and I know he's, he's really tired.
So --
RICK-1: How about Judy? Is she there?
I H» O >
51
PHIL HENRY: Judy? If anything, I guess
she'd be here working on -- if she's not sleeping,
she'd probably be working on the, on the seals.
RICK-1: Yeah. So, she's working, working on
it with David still?
PHIL HENRY: Pardon?
RICK-1: She's working on it with David
still? Is that --
PHIL HENRY: I'm not sure right now. But,
actually, see, I've just been told just to -- just this
basic message, you know. If you could ring well, I
guess see if you could pass the message on to the next
negotiator, about those, those questions you're - that
are on your mind.
RICK-1: Are you one of Zilla's sons?
~92 PHIL HENRY: Zealous sic!? I, I believe I
shoéld follow, you know, according to what I see. You
know.
RICK-1: Um-hum.
PHIL HENRY: SO --
Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.!
RICK-1: You don't, you don't have the, the
ability to speak for yourself? Is that what you're
saying?
PHIL HENRY: No. when I say -- that I
S2
believe in myself I should form my conscience, whatever
I perceive, according to the truth.
RICK-1: Uh-huh.
PHIL HENRY: I believe that's what I should
follow and that's what I do. I mean --
RICK-1: So --
PHIL HENRY: -- the mystics in the past or
anything like that -- Unidentified voice in background
not discernible! -- but --
RICK-1: No, I wasn't clear on what that had
to do with the question that I had as to whether --
PHIL HENRY: Well, you said am I one of the
zealots? Yeah.
RICK1: You kind of confused me there a
little bitt
H PHIL HENRY: Yeah. Well, you know, I'd like
-- actually, with -- you're, you're Rick-1, right?
I nrcx-1= Right.
PHIL HENRY: Right. Tonight I've been asked
not to go into a lot of debate, but I would like to
talk to you on another occasion.
RICK-1: Uh-huh.
PHIL HENRY: And are you, are you -- we've
got -- will you be on the phone tomorrow evening?
RICK-1: No. I'm going -- see, I'm with the
Austin Police Department, so I've got to go back
0 0*
53
tonight.
PHIL HENRY: Yeah. And -- well, the question
was am I a zealite sic!, zealot?
RICK-1: No, no, no. No. Zilla's son.
Zilla Henry. Is that your mother?
PHIL HENRY: Oh, sorry. Yeah. I thought you
said zealot.
son hereRICK-1: No, no, no. Just --
PHIL HENRY: Sorry. Yeah, yeah. I'm Zilla's
RICK-1: Yes. I guess, I guess you were one
of the ones in the video that we saw?
PHIL HENRY: That's right. I didn't say much
in the video.
,.RICK-1: Okay.
PHIL HENRY: If I'd -- I just said hello at
the beginning and --
2
RICK-1: Yeah.
PHIL HENRY: -- I was at the back with my
brother Steven and -- yeah. I'm surprised you guys --
well, of course, you guys are very in tune with those
that have gone out.
RICK-1: Well, no. I mean, we've talked to
Zilla off and on, I guess, a couple of times over
the --
PHIL HENRY: I see.
/-92 ..
'6
54
RICK-1: -- over the past and --
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: That's why the, the name
mind.
PHIL HENRY: Okay.
RICK-1: And then I think at some
time in the past somebody else -- relatives
were inquiring about you.
PHIL HENRY: Yeah. Yeah.
RICK-1: Because I think you were
where -- from United Kingdom?came CO
point in
outside
here from
PHIL HENRY: That's right. Manchester.
RICK-1: Yeah.
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: So --
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
J RICK-1: And I was kind of
that.
PHIL HENRY: .Yeah. Anyway
RICK-1: What's your, what
all this?
PHIL HENRY: Well, I am --
believe everything that's been shown
I can understand on the outside it's
to probably compromise or to, to seeIcurious about
s your opinion of
I -- it's hard to
so far and -- see,
very difficult to,
where David's
coming from, and I -- you know, we've been here for
. _
like three or four years off
England, and we've heard him
And I think it's time before
but we were very hesitant to s
55
and on, going back from
over a number of years.
we drew our conclusions,
until we'd seen the words.
You know, you hear a lot of rumors and stuff.
RICK-1: Um-hum.
PHIL HENRY: SO, I
lot of people out there, youcan understand there are a
know, thinking this guy is
crazy. But our hope is that, you know, God will do
something
RICK-1: Um-hum.so that people will be able to see.
PHIL HENRY: You know, clearly, there's a,
there's a
different religions, so many
things --
It's not a small thing here.lot of confusion around with so many
churches. But these
you know, I believe, it's beyond myself.
It must grow. But all I
can3say really is wait and see, you know, and --
RICK-1: Yeah.
PHIL HENRY: -- don't make any, any -- come
to any conclusions till you've seen the evidence.
Right now he's writing the seals --
RICK-1: Yeah.
PHIL HENRY: -- and -- and --
RICK-1: Well, I think probably where, where
our confusion is from is, you know, from the, the
standpoint of Christianity --
§* Q1i 56
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: -- it's always been taught that,
that Christ was very honest, aboveboard, was always
willing to share.
PHIL HENRY: Um-hum.
RICK-1: In it's, in it's entirety, his
belief was anyone that was interested in listening.
And, and not so much just giving his point of view, but
to really explain and answer their questions outright.
PHIL HENRY: Um-hum.
RICK-1: And --
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: -- it seems like there's been so
much deceit and evasion in this, I guess. It -- and
thi-- it just kind of confuses from that standpoint --
,. PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
2 RICK-1: - you know.
PHIL HENRY: Yeah. Well, you know, as I say,
you know, I've been here for like four year-- four or
five years, going back and forth, and I've seen him
work. But, as I say, I can only give my experience.
You fellows in there outside, that's what you see right
now. So --
RICK-1: Yeah.
PHIL HENRY: -- you know, maybe that's all
you need to know for right now. Okay?
O Ow
57
RICK-1: No, I understand. You know, it's --
PHIL HENRY: So, you know, I wouldn't -- I'm
not really worried right now of the --
RICK-1: There's just been throughout this
whole thing a lot of prevarication and, and it's
been --
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: -- been rather confusing --
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: -- to us, you know --
PHIL HENRY: Right.
RICK-1: -- in that standpoint.
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
,RICK-1: And I understand y'all, you know,
y'all have been concerned about things that you see as
being contradictory from our standpoint. But I think
pretty much from the negotiators that everyone's spoken
to, we've been pretty straightforward all the way
through. And that's why it has kind of confused us.
We don't -- of course, we don't hold ourself out to be
godly either, so that's -- even if we hadn't been --
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: -- a little less than truthful,
then --
PHIL HENRY: Um-hum.
RICK-1: -- I think probably from that
0 ~I Q I se
standpoint, it --
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: -- it would be a little different
category there of, of --
PHIL HENRY: Yeah.
RICK-1: -- of understanding.
PHIL HENRY: Um-hum.
RICK-1: Why, why did it take David so long
to begin writing his manuscript? Hadn't this been
something that he's been doing since --
PHIL HENRY: I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
RICK-1: -- '85, I guess, or -- when he came
back from Israel?
, PHIL HENRY: When he first, well, started
writing? V
h RICK-1: Right. Well, I mean, it's -- the --
his;knowledge of the, of --
é PHIL HENRY: Yeah, he begun --
RICK-1: -- the seven seals.
PHIL HENRY: -- he begun it in 1985.
RICK-1: It seems this is some--
PHIL HENRY: Well --
RICK-l: -- some-- that type of information
with someone of that knowledge, it -- they would have
already way in advance written down their thoughts and
beliefs and, and the interpretations of something that
'
9292 .
59
important. You know, it seemed to me that that's
extremely important, from, from what David has
expressed his stand-- you know, his views and his
standpoint on, on Revelations is --
PHIL HENRY: Um-hum.
RICK-1: - the way it relates to the rest of
the Bible and everything.
PHIL HENRY: Yeah. Well, as it appears to
myself and to those of us here, is that the way he's
done things and the w--
[End of tape 236.]
I
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