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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #53
March 5, 1993
11:44 A.M. 12:30P.M.
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MR. KORESH: -- Christ, right? The boss is
back, right?
DICK: The boss is back.
MR. KORESH: Okay, and likewise the Lutherans
and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and Christ can
say to those who were given talents, you know, well,
you've - I've given you five talents, you've increased
them to ten, I've given you four -- I increased them to
eight, you know, and sad to say there might be those
religious institutions that had one talent and you just
buried it in the ground, didn't, didn't produce any
increase for their Lord, right? But then, you know,
that would be so idealistic, you know - you know,
Christ is going to come, you'll see glorious things
bigger than anybody else, nobody can fight against him,
no opposition, you know, no quibble of mine, just
straight across the table. But it, it seems to appear
very clearly, as a matter of fact very factually, that
the revelation of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John develops
a few mysteries such as Christ talking with his
disciples about his second coming. In Matthew 24 he
begins to make it very plain, you know, about his
second coming. Though he refers to the prophet Daniel,
he says, "When you shall see the abomination and
desolation," spoken of by the prophet Daniel he tells
about his followers leaving Jerusalem. Okay, and then
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he says, "In wars and rumors of wars they shall kill
you for my name's sake." He says, "Because iniquity
will abound indiscernible! but you endure the same
shall be saved." Says, "There will be great
tribulation," and the -- and that tribulation, you
know, people don't understand the dark ages what kind
of tribulation there was. He says, "In the tribulation
afterwards when they shall say to you he's in the
desert he says go not forth; when they shall say he's
in the, in the secret chambers," in other words, you
know, no one knows where he's at and - he's in heaven,
he's, you know, you know, right? He's up there in the
secret chambers. "Believe it not. For as lightening
shines out of the East even the West will also shall be
the coming of the son of man." Now, does this mean
like lightning that shines in the East even to the West
like, you know, big lightening bolt he's going to come
or does it mean that it'll be as clear? I mean, just -
- when you see literal lightening in nature shine it's
clear, isn't it? It's obvious, it's right there in
front of you, right?
DICK: Well, it should be, David. I, I would
agree.
MR. KORESH: Okay, but then the next
statement that Christ makes according to what these men
say is, he says, "Wheresoever the carcass is " --
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no, after he makes the statement of it'll be like
lightening that shines in the East even in the West,
and he says, "For wheresoever the carcass is there will
be eagles be gathered together." So, you know, a
statement like that puts the, the mind of man into a,
into a query saying well, what does that mean? You
know, because the statement is not made to be very
obvious, is it?
DICK: Well, it's difficult for a lot of
people to understand those kinds of statements, David,
and it's --
MR. KORESH: But we know Christ would know
what it means.
DICK: Absolutely.
MR. KORESH: And we would know that many
would come in his name and he said -- said, "I am
Christ indiscernible!" Now, now, Matthew said Christ
was Christ, Mark said Christ was Christ, Luke said
Christ was Christ and John says Christ was Christ. And
there comes a later comer in the scripture when you
begin to see the book of Acts how it on the day of
Pentecost those who had received him were given power,
a definite sign of their acceptance in their purpose to
carry the good news not with just words of wisdom but
with power. They were given the cloven tongues of fire
which definitely had some kind of meaning to it. They,
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they were cloven -- two tongues of fire. And they
began to explain about -- Peter says, you know, that
this Christ same Christ in the heavens shall come again
and he shall remain in the heavens until the
restitution of all things spoken of by the holy
prophets. Now, of course if a person is ignorant of
the holy prophets and what they have stated, then again
Peter will be making a statement in which the sun would
be shadowy. But anyway, as we progress through the
Acts we see the Acts talks about certain individuals
who were very zealous and persecuting the things they
did not understand like Saul or Tarsius phonetic sp.!
and we find that Saul finally got an awakening on the
way to Damascus to persecute more Christians when
scripture says Christ himself personally appeared in a
great light and blinded this man and smote this man to
the ground and says to this man, "Saul, Saul, why
persecutest thou me? It's hard to kick against the
pricks." Now, a lot of people wouldn't understand
again why Christ would, would state it's hard for Paul
to kick against the pricks. I mean, there's, there's a
lot of lingo and statements made by Christ and the
apostles which are not of the obvious, more or less in
the mysterious. But of course, if a person understood
in the day of Moses, Moses, you know, trying to be a
deliverer in his own strength indiscernible! Egypt
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have killed an Egyptian, right? And being brought
before the judiciary he, he made a run for it and
landed up in the land of Goshen over near Midian and
there he finally found employment with the priest of
Midian and ended up marrying one of his daughters and a
good 40 years later deprogramed him from his pride and
arrogancy, his kingship type, you know, the way he was
raised in the house of Pharaoh, and basically taught
this man how to just simply live simple and love simple
and, and love to take care of sheep and take the burden
of a shepherd. And when the man finally had just about
become deprogramed from all of his high deals of being
somebody high and mighty, then all of a sudden he
beheld down to Ararat up the mountain indiscernible!
and he saw there a burning bush. Now, of course, you
know, if a person understood, you know, the Hebrew, I
mean there is kind of a translation problem sometimes,
they would understand that this bush was a thorn bush.
And Moses went down to see this great sight because the
thorn bush was all on fire but it wasn't being
consumed. And then of course the thorn bush turned out
to be God, right? You know, and, and we find out this
thorn bush later on was really Christ before he became
flesh. So again, you know, Moses having been
deprogramed from his indiscernible! was ready to take
on the work that God was going to do through him, okay?
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So then Moses had to confront the greatest nation of
the day and very humbly present has plea in behalf of
God and when the nation was stubborn and wouldn't
listen finally God had to retaliate because they
started retaliating on Israel and God finally subjected
and destroyed that nation so that all nations might be
prepared to realize that God was back in the saddle
again and he was coming into town.
DICK: He was coming into town, huh?
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah, you know, God's a
cowboy. He's, he's got some horses don't he in the
book of Revelation? You know, God's definitely a
cowboy. Now, what we're talking about again is that in
the days of the new covenant where Christ is being
crucified, being handed over to the Roman judiciary, we
see a little bit the way corruption sometimes becomes
obvious in political systems and that well, Pilot,
Pilot in his position knew. I mean, Pilot wasn't one
of these crazy religious fanatics. You know - one
time a person said years ago and I remember this that a
fanatic is a person who's lost sight of their goal and
try twice as hard to accomplish it. You know, and it
always struck me, and I said, you know, though it's a
statement of man it's very inspired.
DICK: Is that always a negative though,
David?
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MR. KORESH: What, a fanatic?
DICK: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Well, like I say, fanaticism is
something where men are running in the dark as fast as
they can to get to where they don't know where they're
going.
DICK: Well,
that's --
MR. KORESH: It could be a dangerous thing.
DICK: It certain can, but I, I would guess
that on the other hand it can be -- it could also be a
good thing couldn't it?
MR. KORESH: Well, I don't think so. I think
that being zealous --
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- is a good thing, is putting
your full strength into something knowing what you're
to accomplish and being zealous is being a good thing,
but fanatic --
DICK: Well, can I offer perhaps a personal
observation? You know, in, in certain respects I
consider myself a fanatic. That is, I'm -- I, I want
to ensure that while I'm with this lawenforcement
organization that the constitution is first and
foremost in, in terms of what I do with my day-to-day
activities and I deal with people that the constitution
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is the measure of what, what I should do. And I, I'm
very fanatical about that to some degree, that that is,
is what I'm about, you know? I want to ensure that
when I'm doing the job that I protect the rights of the
citizens that I deal with and that's, that's of prime
importance. I know this morning Steve was -- indicated
to me well, you know, once you folks leave what is
going to happen? I said, one thing that we're going to
tell you that's going to happen is that the
constitution is going to be strictly adhered to. That
is, that no one is going to circumvent any of your
constitutional rights, we will not allow that to
happen. I know you had expressed several concerns
that, that I personally sitting here with, with Jim for
the last couple of days have, have shared your concerns
with to include the safety of your -- of the children.
And I, I think you saw this morning on the press
conference that the kids there was some suggestion
in the media that the kids had been sent out to, to
foster homes. Totally, totally inaccurate. And we
have prepared for you a, a videotape that will, will
show you, you know, in color -- living color that that
is not the case at all.
MR. KORESH: Well --
DICK: These kids are being, being treated
well and we will not allow anything to happen to those
children. We treat, we treat them like our own.10
MR. KORESH: Well, the statement was is that
it was a planning in the social workers to locate them
to foster homes.
DICK: Well --
MR. KORESH: See, that was the actual
statement. In other words now, I, I know these
ladies down here, you know, I know Mrs. Koon and
DICK: You have some differences with them I
understand.
MR. KORESH: Well no, wait a minute. My --
like, like my, my position is is that when we had them
evaluate
to where I could become very picky in that well,
of all I don't believe that a fat lady that sits
butt all day long and over eats is really a very
mother. Now, if she has a problem to where, you
you know, she -- thyroid or something like that,us, you know, I mean and it comes to the point
first
on her
good
know,
you
know, she cannot help but to gain that weight then a, a
fat mama is a fat mama. But, you know, what I'm
is
DICK: Laughter!saying
M. KORESH: -- what I'm saying is a woman
that is fat and working all day in, in an institution
that is always putting feminine tendencies above
reason, you know, is not really --
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DICK: David, I couldn't agree --
M. KORESH: -- is not really a social work.
Now, they --
DICK: I couldn't agree with you more,
couldn't agree with you more.
M. KORESH: Now --
DICK: We want to ensure that that does not
happen. We -- you know, all of us I think hear of
instances where, you know, where kids are, are sent to
foster homes with little regard about anything more
than this is a place to put the children. We're not
going to let that happen. This is not going to happen.
MR. KORESH: What's going on?
DICK: I'm sorry. You listening to somebody
in the background?
MR. KORESH: Well, it's just, just some
little commotion took place and --
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- I've got, I've got to hold
these people down as --
DICK: Well --
MR. KORESH: -- much as can -- I can.
DICK: Well, I know yesterday when you were
talking to Jim I took it upon myself to, to ensure that
some of these things got done because I can hear the
concern in your voice, as a father I hear that concern
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in your voice. And, and not only in your voice but the
other parents out there are equally concerned.
HR. KORESH: Well, what I was - what was
breaking Jim down was is that like I say, you know, I
commended Jim for, for his expertise, you know, but the
thing of it is is that, you know, as you all are saying
one thing to me I, I had to get a little strong with
Jim yesterday. And I had to point blank say, you know,
now Jim, you are a liar. Now, here's the deal. The
original, the original program was is that Jim had
confirmed and promised that the these little, these
little tanks and stuff were going to stay on the
perimeter of the property. Now, as they -- as, as they
all have been saying one thing we have been observing
and watching something totally opposite, of course
which you all keep saying it's not so which
idealistically shows us the fallibility of your ability
to, to perceive and know what's going on out here.
Now --
DICK: Could I tell --
M. KORESH: -- I kept saying --
DICK: - could I tell you something in
confidence, David?
MR. KORESH: Go ahead.
DICK: In confidence? You know, we here are
trying to do the very best we can and there are a
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number of different agencies that we're dealing with.
MR. KORESH: I understand that.
DICK: And you and I both know, let me
continue just a second. We all know that sometimes
tactical people, you know, they, they like to drive
their - they like to put on their, their gear, they
like to jump out of helicopters and they like to do
those kinds of things, they like to drive around those
little tanks and they're - you know, they're young,
they're not a little older and mature that I as you
and I are perhaps. A certain amount of that - it's
like kids your kids going outside over there and
doing some things perhaps that you don't necessarily
agree on but you say hey, these are young kids, they've
got to live their life like you and I did. Some of
these folks driving those tanks, you know, this may be
the only opportunity they ever have to drive one of
those Bradleys and boy, I want to get that Bradley up
and down the road and, you know, they, they get, they
get impatient, they get, they get excited: hey here's
my chance, let me push this vehicle, let's, let's see
what this baby will do. It's like - if I can draw an
analogy like, you know, those Camaros that you have out
there. I used to have a Camaro years ago and loved it,
little Mustang, same way. Hey, this is just another
vehicle for them to drive to shift a few gears and, and
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probably they don't have a lot of expertise.
MR. KORESH: What's your name, Mike?
DICK: Dick.
MR. KORESH: Dick, okay.
DICK: Yeah, Dick.
MR. KORESH: Dick, let me interrupt you real
quick.
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: These, these, these young men
I'm sure feel very confident in their little vehicles,
you know? The, the tactical force, the ATF, says they,
they prepared eight months for this.
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Well, we prepared ever since
1985, okay? Now, what I was trying to tell Jim in all
earnestness and in all passion is that when this little
tank keeps coming around back here it's going to get
blown to pieces. Now, that's what I was trying to tell
him honestly. You see, that thing that Bradley, we
know the specs and everything on that little tank with
the 25 mm gun and everything and along with, along with
Henry - I kept trying to explain to Henry that when
such a vehicle, you know, comes in - onto our
perimeter and crushes over a building that had stored
someone else's belongings not associated to this
organization and then goes and tears the camper shell
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out at the front of the property, runs over these
buildings and then has the audacity to run right beside
our gymnasium right here and, and stand approximately
45 -- well, not even that much, 75 -- let's say 75
feet, you know, behind us, whoever those kids are they
are subject to be fired upon. And in being fired upon,
they're not going to be hit with no 50 caliber. You
know, we --
DICK: Well, that's why we tried --
MR. KORESH: -- understand that if it be, if
it be indiscernible! load or whether it be armor-
piercing, that there's only four or five fatal points
on that armored vehicle. But, but what they are going
to be hit with is not a 50 caliber. Now, if, if --
DICK: David, you've got our assurances that
nothing is going to happen --
MR. KORESH: Well now, let me explain to you.
That was in my good favor, you see, because I explained
to Jim because I love, I love you individuals and you
do not understand what you're dealing with and I
understand that. You see, you do not understand the
importance of where my communication comes from, you
know? You do not understand how I labored for the past
month and a half with the ATF agents across the street.
Very few people understand where I'm coming from and
this is why I will spend the time on the phone with you
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or anybody else that's willing to reason together with
me. Because see, I'm being, I'm being blockaded from
the public which that's all right too because what was
done the other day is sufficient for every honest
person in this nation to be able to say now, okay,
everything aside what did that guy teach the other day?
Let's see, he teached something about Jesus not being
believed on in his day, huh? And he teached something
about a revelation of Jesus Christ God gave him, let's
see, God on a white horse and something about a mystery
of God when there's time no longer, about seven
thunders that the prophets know about. And that guy
went back to what, Psalms 45 after showing us about the
Key of David, something about the Key of David that
unlocks something to do with David. Yeah, David did
write the Psalms. Now, what does that Psalm 45 say?
Huh. Oh, well, that - yeah, that's right, that is the
same as the first seal, oh, and that is the same as
Revelation 19, the marriage of the Lamb, blessed are
those that are called to the marriage supper of the
Lamb. Well, I don't see - that, that sounds right
that's right there in the Bible, that's in harmony.
Well, individuals right now as we speak that are, you
know, looking into these things and becoming honest; it
doesn't make no difference what they think about me as
a person because it's a indiscernible! and a snare,
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you see?
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: When Jeremiah the prophet of old
who tried to warn Israel about the pending doom of
Judea through Babylonian armies they laughed at him and
they mocked at him but finally Babylon did overthrow
Judea.
DICK: Well, David, there, there - you know,
we're certainly not laughing or mocking anybody here.
I'm -
MR. KORESH: Well, I understand.
DICK: I'm very willing to listen to you and
I'm trying to work with you to try to get some of these
things done. I understand that you asked Henry last
night for a suture kit. And we have, we have that and
we should have available very, very shortly.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, I appreciate that.
DICK: In addition to that we, in addition to
that we've got photos and, and tape for you on the
kids.
MR. KORESH: Well, we was asking, asking for
the milk if at al possible.
DICK: And, and we're going -- you know, let
me -- you know, I tried to explain this a little bit to
Steve. Can you, can you give a couple minutes of your
time to listen to this?
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M. KORESH: Sure, sure.
DICK: I'm here to help you in any fashion I
can and, you know, if it were just you and I, I'd have
that I'd be -- you know, as I told Steve I'd be
riding down the lane now with milk. But I have to --
you know, I have to send that up and decisions
sometimes in other areas are made by other people. You
and I can work together, I have absolutely no question
in my mind about that, and I - and you've got my word
that I'm dealing with this issues and -- with that
issue and, and I have dealt with the other issues.
I've, I've gone out on my own yesterday based on what,
you know, your request to Jim was and I, and I went up.
I said, listen, let's get this done for this for,
for these folks out here and in turn they, they
considered these things and, and they said let's get
this suture kit in and the photos, obviously all of us
are concerned about the kids, we have the photos for
you and we're going to get that in to you and, and it's
not going to be much longer before, before those are
available. But you know what, my experience in dealing
with some of the, some of the bosses is such that --
again, this is in confidence just the two of us here,
we need to go to them and say listen, boss, I mean, you
know, they've been in the Bureau longer than I have and
they expect certain things of me. And sometimes they
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don't understand as well as, as I do what it is to deal
with, with folks like this because it's been a long
time since they've been out there, you know, they, they
desire to do other things, I've always had aspirations
of dealing with people all the time. And they
always - they want something. I said, hey, David,
make me look good, make me look good to these people or
help me out, I can do
done them for you and
How do you want to do
out there?
MR. KORESH:
We'll send a girl out
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
DICK: Well,
me out with - make me
MR. KORESH:
made Jim look real goo-- pick up out at the same p
Yeah, right out at the fron
there to pick it up.
Can you do something for m
What is it?
can you, can you, can you h
look good up front up there
Well, here's another thing.
d but as he continued to lie
me and lie to me, remember, what you do not see is
dangerous to you than
DICK: Well
MR. KORESH:
what I'm saying becaus
communication you've a
three times.what you do see.
Now, what - now, let me --
e see, with your mode of
lready changed the subject othese things for you and I have
we'll, we'll have that shortly.
oint
t.
e?
elp
?
I
to
more
hear
n me
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DICK: Well, I apologize for that --
MR. KORESH: But I know -
DICK: but I, I know these things are
important to you and I want to address them.
MR. KORESH: - I know what you're trying to
accomplish and I, and I -- as I told Jim, you see, you
have your board of directors and I understand very
thoroughly and clearly who your board of directors are.
DICK: Well, sometimes I don't understand
that --
MR. KORESH: But --
DICK: -- but we have to deal with it the
best we can.
MR. KORESH: -- I have my board of direction
and that's what I was trying to explain last night to
men. But the key is this: my board of directors are
not so clearly seen or observed. And, and I was
explaining to Jim, I was explaining to him that, you
know, Jim, this nation that says "In God We Trust," God
is an unseen thing except a thing witnessed by the
prophets. Christ is an unseen thing. All we can see
is what men have said based in a book. And that's the
truth isn't it? Isn't it, Dick? Isn't that the truth?
DICK: It is the truth. I, I
MR. KORESH: It is the truth. And so --
DICK: It is the truth. But you've --
MR. KORESH: - people say -21
DICK: - got a gift to be able to get that,
that truth out to people.
MR. KORESH: Well --
DICK: I don't think anybody would argue
that.
MR. KORESH: -- let's, let's don't --
a lot of people already out there, Billy Graham
hello?
DICK: I'm here.
MR. KORESH: And a lot of people that
there, they've been hammering this truth a longwe got
and --
are out
time
about good old Jesus, you know, loving Jesus. But the
thing of it is is that we remember what our original
conversation was is this Jesus, Pilot
him go but it was a bureaucracy thing
Jews said that if you let him go, you
Caesar's, we're not going to vote forwould have let
and the, and the
know, friend of
you next term.
And when it came right down to it, Pilot still within
himself says, you know, I washed my hands of this just
person -- " - you know --
DICK: David, let - Dave, I'm sorry,again,
I apologize, but let me interrupt you for a minute. I
just got some information that those buggies are -- the
Bradleys are moving around out there, I just want to
make sure that you don't feel uncomfortable about it.
And please, you know, you, you, you suggest --22
MR. KORESH: I've already, I've already told
Jim that I've already seen how that he's lied and that,
you know, I am, I am willing to tolerate it to a
degree.
DICK: I understand that.
MR. KORESH: And I just wanted him to
wanted him to know --say --
DICK: That you had something there that,
that -- you know, at your disposal that none of
would like.
M. KORESH: Well, like I'm saying --
DICK: I understand that.
M. KORESH: -- he says he don't want
hurt and he thinks that's onesided.
DICK: No, it isn't, absolutely not.
MR. KORESH: And, and the thing of it
that I told him --
DICK: What do we have to gain either
to, to hurt one another?
HR. KORESH: Well, the thing of it is
that --
DICK: What good will that do?US
anybody
is is
of us
is
M. KORESH: -- if you understood prayer --
MR. DICK: Are you telling me, David,
you have a rocket or something out there?that
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M. KORESH: I'm saying that we have
capabilities of taking care of your Bradleys, okay?
Now, what I'm saying is this: I'm saying that if you
understood where I am coming from, if I could have this
respect like I, like I was trying to gain last night,
that then you would understand better where I'm coming
from and we could resolve this a lot easier. You see,
when -- on the radio --
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- I gave my message --
DICK: I understand.
MR. KORESH: -- in a very -- that I was, I
was --
DICK: And I listened to it.
MR. KORESH: -- I was told by you --
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- not by you particularly but
by the system to make it as short as possible.
DICK: Okay. And you said you did.
MR. KORESH: And I said that just to make the
very basic point, the very basic point, what happened
is is that I made it and it, it came out, you know, 60
minutes or 58 minutes to be exact --
DICK: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: -- you know? And so, you know,
they -- he, he, he acted like, well he didn't know if
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he could get it all on and, and it - you know, it was
going to be a real hard thing. And then of course what
happened was, after the tape was, was presented and
everything the, the message came to me to wait. Okay
indiscernible! I changed my clothes and everything, I
got all the blood stuff off and everything and that was
a very painful operation, people were getting ready.
Because, you know, basically once the light is given
and in its clear tones then, then our work is finished.
I mean --
DICK: So, you're, you're telling me that you
were ready, you were ready to go?
MR. KORESH: Oh, we were ready to come out.
DICK: You were, David? You're telling me
truthfully that you were going to go out or were you
going to send the kids out?
MR. KORESH: Truthfully, no, the whole
organization.
DICK: was ready?
MR. KORESH: You see --
DICK: Why did you change your mind then,
Dave? I, I'm trying to understand that.
MR. KORESH: Now, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait.
DICK: Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go
ahead.
25
M. KORESH: Now, let's, let's back up here.
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: See, you're proving to me that
you're not listening really --
DICK: I am.
MR. KORESH: -- to, to listen. You're
listening to pacify and that's what Jim's doing. Jim
was, Jim was saying, "Now, here's our deal, Dave."
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: He says that, that, that "Our
Bradleys and stuff will stay at the perimeter of the
property," you know, -- and, you know, "Don't let the
guys get itchy," and, you know, "What we'll do is is
that we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll get these guys back and
we'll negotiate this." And I already told him in the
beginning that I was going to start sending children
out.
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay? Which, you know, I've,
I've upheld my word. I - at first I was sending two
at a time because there was this rumor going around we
only had 14 kids or 15 and oh, no, it's totally
different. But anyway, the point was is that all the
while that he was saying these things, you know, the
fog came and stuff, you know, and, you know, the --
it's reported that we have night sights and stuff like
O O
26
that, you know.
DICK: Well, clear those things up. I mean,
those are inaccuracies that we all have to deal with.
You, you cannot believe, David, some of the things that
are being brought to our attention. I mean, it's just,
it's just beyond belief. And, you know, that's what
you and I need to do is communicate to one another.
and please, we're all different personalities. Don't,
don't hold me to something that somebody else said; I,
I will hold myself to things that I tell you, and
you've got to deal with me as an individual.
MR. KORESH: Well, you know, you can buy, you
can buy a top-grade infrared for, for as low as, as, as
ninehundred bucks, eighthundred bucks, and as high as
seventeenhundred bucks.
DICK: Yeah, I don't know much about those
kinds of things. You know, I'm a law-enforcement
officer, obviously I have the basic understanding, but
I'm not into, into, you know, rockets -
MR. KORESH: Okay.
DICK: -- and night scopes and those I'm
not a tactical person. What I want to do is, is help
people. Is that a bad reason to be a law-enforcement
officer?
MR. KORESH: ,Okay. Now, if you want to help
somebody, the way I have always learned, the way I have
27
learned to be able to help people is that if I confront
a talker --
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- that I want to help, then I
listen to learn --
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- what they're saying.
DICK: Do you think, David, you could learn
anything from me?
MR. KORESH: Well, the thing of it is, I'm
learning that you have been hired in your position
because you are a good pacifist and that you have to
say many things that you hope will disarm contention
and confusion and bring about a working trustful
relationship with those that you speak with.
DICK: Is that wrong?
MR. KORESH: Well, that is not wrong
especially when you're dealing with a person that could
be a terrorist or a maniac or a killer or somebody of
that degree.
DICK: Okay.
M. KORESH: But let's say that you were
working let's just hypothetically say that you were
working for -- hello?
DICK: I'm still here, Dave.
MR. KORESH: Okay. You were working for the,
the papacy in the days of Martin Luther.
DICK: Okay.28
MR. KORESH: And let's say that I was Martin
Luther.
DICK: But you know what --
M. KORESH: And you -- let's say that you
were using every degree possible because they didn't,
they didn't have people like you in their, their days,
to cause -- to try to get me to recant without me first
presenting to you in full where I was coming from.
Now, now, Luther had this very problem.
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: And this was why, you know, in
his pleadings in the councils and all this, this is
what caused a lot of lawyers and doctors of degree of
that time to sit back originally first of all to scoff
him but as they begin to, to listen they begin to see a
clear-cut reasoning in what he was saying which made
them conscientiously begin to question their own
steadfastness and what they had held as truth prior.
DICK: David, why are you such a
what you do? Because you have the ability
you're a very strong personality, you have
have a, a gift for talking with people andsuccess at
to get --
your -- you
to
getting -- to get your message out. And people
understand that and people appreciate that and admire
29
that. I admire that. I admire the work that you're
able to do.
MR. KORESH: Not bad for a ninthgrade
dropout, huh?
DICK: I, I don't believe that. I don't
believe you dropped out in the ninth grade.
MR. KORESH: Well, research the records.
Check up for Vernon Howell and see the special schools
that he went to.
DICK: Well, let's, let's face it, you know,
life --
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! scholastical
ability. Now --
DICK: Absolutely.
MR. KORESH: - and remember, in Matthew,
Mark, Luke and John remember what kind of men Christ
chose to entrust with the most illuminous, the most
instructive and poetic form of language ever known to
man, the Scriptures. Remember, from these writers,
their depth, their knowledge, their foresight, their
perceptions are so keened that they began to relate
subjects that not even most scholarly minds of today
can perceive the actual meanings. And --
DICK: David, would you agree that, that
maybe someone has something of importance to tell to
you? I mean, would you accept that premise that maybe
30
I have something that I can give to you, something that
might be of, of value to not only to you but to the
rest of your folks there? Is that an acceptable
premise?
MR. KORESH: Well, sure. I mean, like I say,
if I --
DICK: I'm still here, I'm still here.
MR. KORESH: I hear you talking and stuff.
DICK: Is that that must the phone on your
end, right?
MR. KORESH: Right, it's, it's people walking
over the lines, yeah.
DICK: Okay. All right. Well, you know, I'm
trying to work with you, Dave, and, and we've gotten
some, some of these things done, some of your concern,
what you shared obviously I went out, I, I did it and
it's done. We got the suture kit for you, photos for
the, for the folks, the parents in there; you're
concerned about the kids, I'm concerned about the kids.
We - I certainly share a number of, of different
thoughts and emotions not the least of which -- the
first of which is, is a love for children. Can we
agree to that? We do agree to that.
MR. KORESH: Well, to a degree we agree on
that.
DICK: Okay, and so I want to ensure that you
31
know that the information that you've been hearing
about the split-up of these kids it is in error, it's
just wrong. Now --
MR. KORESH: Well, we, we agree to that too,
but what we were saying with Jim was is that the
children were sent out --
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- with specific instruction and
names and numbers --
DICK: To get up with those folks.
MR. KORESH: - of, of those individuals that
have first rights by, you know, heirship and
inheritance to these children.
DICK: We're -- and we're, and we're
trying --
M. KORESH: You know, grandmothers and
grandfathers.
DICK: But listen, if I entrusted my child to
you with -- and had to depend on you to get it done
wouldn't you research that first? And that's exactly
what we're doing. We're trying to ensure that these
kids are not handed off to somebody without getting the
appropriate care. That's, that's first and foremost in
our mind. And --
MR. KORESH: Well, you got to remember --
DICK: -- we're going to, we're going to
32
handle all these kids in the same fashion. You know,
Steve mentioned, you know, programs and policies.
Well, these are children, they're not programs, they're
not policies --
MR. KORESH: Yes, they are programs --
DICK: -- they're, they're, they're children.
M. KORESH: -- and they are policies as long
as they're in your system of programs and policies.
For instance, there is no crime in this nation for a
young girl living in the slums of New York to have a
baby. Now, they don't just take that baby up and give
it to someone who has financial status which is within
their region, a status capable of providing so
much x amount of middle-class liberty to that child.
What happens is is that those who have the babies have
the mother's right to the children and if they even
have to be on welfare or housing projects that's what's
provided for them. Now, what we're dealing with is
we're dealing with grandparents --
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- that have been judged by the
parent to be worthy and capable of taking care of these
children.
DICK: And you're obviously the best judge of
that.
MR. KORESH: Or we're having - now, now,
33
that's not the case with some of the people here. Some
of the people have stated that they want their
brothers, you know, which like I say, the, the age
category from here --
DICK: Sure.
MR. KORESH: -- to have the children in their
later twenties or thirties which they have brothers or
sisters that may be older, you know, that are in family
situations. But, but anyway, regardless of that, the
point being made is that this is what we requested and
this is what Jim stated would be done.
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But of course again now, if this
is just --
DICK: Dave, it will be done.
MR. KORESH: -- a bartering statement just
for the purpose to acquire the children, then we find
that that security is nothing but a lie and that
everything thereafter is nothing but more lies added to
it to cover up and try to pacify the fact that Jim and
such people as yourself really have no authority to do
anything but talk the yap, you know --
DICK: David, I, I feel --
MR. KORESH: -- to try to pacify.
DICK: -- I'm insulted by that comment.
That, that --
34
MR. KORESH: Well, you, you need --
DICK: -- supposes that I don't --
M. KORESH: - you need, you need to be
insulted and you need to do something about it because
therefore you should choose your words more thoroughly
and more honestly.
DICK: I have something about it - David, I
have done something about it.
MR. KORESH: Okay .
DICK: I have done it, it's done and it will
be to you shortly. We have gone -- we have obtained
photographs, we obtained a, a videotape for you and
your folks out there. That's not something we said we
would do, that's something that's been done.
MR. KORESH: So, we're not, we're not even
going to suggest or -- the purpose of putting these
children into foster homes? Now --
DICK: I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood your
question. The kids are not in foster homes.
M. KORESH: No, no, no, I realize that.
DICK: Okay.
M. KORESH: We've realize that all along.
DICK: But you want -- okay, I'm sorry,
please once again explain
MR. KORESH: So, what I was trying to verify
was is that the social workers downtown which I
92
35
originally stated to you that I, I know these ladies --
DICK: The fat lady that sits on her butt,
okay.
MR. KORESH: Well, that was, that was a
derogatory statement --
DICK: I know it was, I know it was.
M. KORESH: -- in regards to, you know,
sweet in the face and soft of the mouth --
DICK: Surely.
M. KORESH: -- but talking about how to
raise kids and --
DICK: Probably doesn't know anything about
it, right?
M. KORESH: And, and probably when it comes
right own it anything you look at too long becomes too
scientific to actually act upon.
DICK: Sure.
HR. KORESH: And the study of a child is like
the study of stars. I mean, you know, it's just
innumerable. But --
DICK: David, why would you think that I have
any less care for those children --
MR. KORESH: Now, I didn't state that.
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: What I said was --
DICK: All right.
36
MR. KORESH: -- is that you -- well, I'll
make this statement.
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: You do not have anywhere near
the care for our children that we do.
DICK: Absolutely.
MR. KORESH: Okay. That's just --
DICK: I, I -- absolute.
MR. KORESH: -- a biological human --
DICK: Nor you for my children.
MR. KORESH: Exactly.
DICK: Right. It's a biological fact.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now --
DICK: But, we do, we do hold in common a
concern for children, all children.
MR. KORESH: Okay. So the point is, you
know, as we've jumped all around changing the pictures,
changing the, the scenes that we've been trying to look
at --
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- you know, the point was is
that Jim stated that these children would be handed
over to the appropriate second to kin that we requested
which has not been done. Now, so then what takes place
is that --
DICK: When? Did he, did he give you a time?
37
I, I, I didn't hear that. Did he give you a time
element there?
MR. KORESH: Well, it was, it was, it was an
element in regards to as soon as possible because these
very relatives are gathering all over from all over the
United States, from Hawaii and even from, from probably
over in Europe, England and Australia.
DICK: David, we have no disagreement on
that. Those kids need to go. You think these kids are
going to be made wards of the state from here on out?
Obviously they're going to be returned to the parents
when they come out --
MR. KORESH: And we do not --
DICK: -- or, or designated --
MR. KORESH: -- we do not want, we do not
want these parents to have to go through any kind of
what you consider to be a legal system --
DICK: Understand that also.
MR. KORESH: -- to be able to, to prove and
to evaluate whether they are capable of taking --
DICK: Nor do I --
MR. KORESH: -- care of these children --
DICK: -- nor do we.
MR. KORESH: .-- because these parents having
the same homes and facilities of which the parents of
these children came from. In other words, you know,
my, my room is38
still there at my mother's house --
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- and my
there just as well as I did. As
mother makes more money now thanchildren can live
a matter of fact, my
my --
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- mom and dad did
was growing up.back when I
DICK: Okay. Although both of us I think
would agree that money is not, is, is not --
MR. KORESH: The whole thing, it's, it's,
it's --
DICK: Absolutely.
MR. KORESH: -- a good 50 percent.
DICK: It, it means a lot in terms of,
of --
MR. KORESH: It's indiscernible!.
DICK: -- providing -- yeah, providing those
things that we all need to, to live --
M. KORESH: Right.
DICK: -- and live we1l._ But that's going to
be done. Are you suggesting that, that we, we have --
we should have
these kids are
the concern --
Obviously it'sdone it by now? We want to ensure that
handled appropriately and that they get
the care and concern that they want.
better that they're with their parents,
39
meaning you and the other parents in there. Short of
your coming out and getting together with them we have
to get them to the folks they're dealing with the best.
These kids have told us and, are telling the other --
they, they're together. What does that provide? It
provides them with the support that they've had while
living out there. I mean, do you suppose it would be
better for them to be separated from their other kids
at this point or --
MR. KORESH: Well, what, what the basic
statements are in regards to ATF and, and even your own
personal news briefs is that the children are going
through a series or are to be going through a series of
deprogramming --
DICK: Oh, David, David, please.
MR. KORESH: -- and that there are
statements that are being --
DICK: Not true.
MR. KORESH: Well, there are statements.
DICK: I don't care what statements are being
made.
MR. KORESH: Well, let me --
DICK: You have my personal guarantee --
MR. KORESH: -- let me --
DICK: - that's not -- is not true.
MR. KORESH: - let me explain.
6 6
40
DICK: Okay.
M. KORESH: This is from the bureau, the
social workers, okay? This is not -- see, your
organization, the FBI, is not in position to deal with
childcare custody.
DICK: Absolutely.
MR. KORESH: Okay. That is a separate bureau
altogether with a separate expertise.
vxcx: Right.
M. KORESH: Now, the reports from that
expertise is that the children are extremely abnormal
in the respect that after a dramatic experience they're
very pliable, they're very decent, they're very
obedient and it's just not normal. Well now, there may
be a reason why our children are so well-behaved in
regards to the way of their, their upbringing.
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: You will observe that our
children are not beaten, they do not have, you know,
marks of cruelty and bruises over them, they're not
beaten into subjection. But there is a statement in
scripture regarding to a man Abraham in which God says,
you know, shall we hide anything from Abraham seeing
that he's the heir of all things and he will direct his
children after him? There's a terrible statement in
the carnal world, a statement that is used by a lot of
Q Q
41
fathers to their sons saying, "Don't do as I do, do as
I say." Now, that, that's hypocritical. Okay. Well,
children, as I say, that see a unity of mind and a
maturity of purpose they will not only see but they
will be influenced and learn how this principle works.
First of all, all of our children see that any
association we have with one another or with anybody
else that comes we're very hospitable, very pliable --
DICK: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: - very agreeable, and then in
the projection of truth these children have seen it in
studies, they have seen it in illustrations and they
have been able to understand and discern to a large
degree what direction we as a people are going.
Another thing is is that in scripture in the testament
of the Bible of which men say in this country they
believe, there are children spoken of in prophecy that
are the direct product of a truth or a doctrine which
comes from heaven. Now, not all the children that you
have there have been with us for very long.
DICK: Umhum. Varying degrees.
MR. KORESH: Some of those children, you
know, are just fresh baked out of the good old system,
you know? But the thing of it is is that they,
children, learn faster from children than they do from
adults --
42
DICK: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- because there is an
association which drops down the wall or petition.
Naturally, a child is intimidated by the size and
velocity and structure of an adult. This is something
you have to kind of remember when you were a kid
looking up at your dad and how tall he was.
DICK: I'm a parent.
MR. KORESH: Okay, and now, you know, you
probably look at your dad and, and he's a short guy.
But he had a certain fear and realm of fear just as
being an image of a father. And of course mama was the
one we ran to. She was bigger than us too but her
image was altogether different. So you know how the
moms say, "Wait until I tell your father."
DICK: Once or twice.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Well hey, good, that's a
good -- I like the way you stated that.
DICK: I think my wife may have said that
once or twice to my kids.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, but, but the question is,
did it take more than once or twice?
DICK: Well, not in my case --
HR. KORESH: Did --
DICK: but in my kids case I believe
it
43
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, what I'm saying is
there was a time in this country where fathers did have
the rights and liberties to illustrate what they meant
when they said no and that no was violated against,
right?
DICK: And I still think that that's done.
It's done in my house.
M. KORESH: Okay. Well, be careful now
because I came under extreme fire. You know, when
people ask me, "Do you with your children - " - you'd
better be very candid when you begin to explain to them
because if you say to them that you spank your children
all of a sudden right then and there you are demonic
and unworthy of that child.
DICK: I, I know that and, and I'm completely
aware of that and I disagree probably as, as strongly
as you do with that, David.
MR. KORESH: I had a father that made me fly
like a kite when I got mine. And I had a father that
because I was a, a student like with dyslexia, learning
-- a learning disability, you know, I mean I didn't
know my alphabet until the third grade.
DICK: Well, you sure overcame that if that
was a problem.
MR. KORESH: And he -- well, this all, this
all took place in 1985.
44
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: I used to, I used to stutter
quite a bit. I had a speech problem and stuff.
DICK: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But in 1985 that was all taken
care of for me. But here's the thing. My dad, I'm
telling you, he, he used to grab me by the arm and he,
he, he spanked me with bailing wire, he spanked me with
sticks, he spanked me with what --
End Tape 53.!
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO E FIREARMS
TAPE #54
March 5, 1993
12:31 p.m. - 2:46 pan.
2
Tape I54!
H. KORESH: -- dad dealt with me.
DICK: Sure.
MR. KORBSB: And somehow I, I seemed to
procrastinate the period of time. You know, it's kind
of like, you know, my daddy used to say when he would
go off to work in the morning, he'd say, "Now, I want
you to clean up this front yard and I want to get home
this afternoon and I want it cleaner than the Safeway
chickens."
DICK: Laughter! Did you do it?
HR. RORESH: And I'd say - he goes, "You
hear me?" And I'd say, "Yes, sir." says, "okay now, I
mean it, I want it cleaner than a Safeway chicken or
there will be some ass whopping."
DICK: Uh-huh.
MR. XORESH: That's the way he used to talk.
Okay. So okay, I had plenty of time, you know, after
breakfast because, you know, we had Icky Twerp cartoons
on and, and as time progressed, you know, we could play
and stuff. And, and then all of a sudden 12 o'clock,
lunch time and more cartoons on. And then all of a
sudden, you know, somehow after 12 o'clock - it took
all day to get from, you know, 7:00 in the morning to
12:00 and somehow, somehow after 12 o'clock it just
seemed like 12:00, 4:30, 5:00, bang, you know, just,
just time would always
hear the truck driving
yard wasn't cleaned.
DICK: Uh-oh
I -- that's --
HR. KORESH:
DICK: Time.
HR. KORESH:
see?
DICK: Yeah.
HR. KORESH:
he gave me a job to do3
get away from me. And I would
up into the driveway and the
You thought, uh-oh. Yeah,
But I just had a problem with --
I always procrastinated, you
But I finally learned that when
whether it was cleaning the
trash or cleaning the chicken, the chicken pen or
whatever it was out inthe back that I'd better after
breakfast get off my little rear end and go out and
start doing it. Now, it took a while but I learned
it's better to do it now and then enjoy a peaceful
afternoon of fun time until supper time until bedtime
than it is to, to -- you know, I learned.
DICK: I, I learned the same thing in the
same fashion.
HR. KORESH: The Bible says spare the rod and
you will spoil the child.
DICK: I believe that to a degree. It, it --
but, you know, it has to be done, you know, with, with
some compassion and it has to be done only --
O O
I 4
MR. KORBSH: Definitely.
DICK: -- when, when it needs to be done.
Would, would you agree?
HR. RORESH: Only a sober adult that knows
what he's doing himself and has mastered the art
himself can administer --
DICK: Sure.
HR. KORESH: - punishment and justice.
DICK: Exactly. It's a, it's a, it's a big
responsibility for us as parents to do that. And, and,
you know, I guess that brings us back to, you know, why
we're so concerned that these kids are placed with the
appropriate people. And we share those concerns.
we're, we're not at odds about that at all.
DICK: Well, the social workers always will
ask, you know, a couple in regards to discipline and if
they say they were, they were using the means of
paddling or spanking then the social workers will not
give that child to those parents. I mean, that's just
a fact.
HR. KORESH: Well, David, you and I both
agree that the, the optimum thing here is obviously for
you to care tor your own children and for the folks
inside to care for their own children.
HR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
DICK: And, and that's a decision that only
5
you can make. You know, that's up to you, Dave.
Nothing I can say or do will change that
responsibility. That's, that's your responsibility and
not only - it's, it's your right to care for those
kids.
HR. KORBSH: Well, like I said, our decision
has been lade. Now, here's what I was trying to
explain to you betore we went around and around and
went around --
DICK: Jake's barn, right?
HR. KORESH: -- went around the, went around
the world and went to different countries and, and
talked about the different things we saw. What I was
saying was is that the scripture states that there was
this man that was very zealous. His name was Saul but
he got kind of knocked in the head, and he was asked by
the supernatural being. Now, we're talking about
supernatural now. We're talking about - not let's,
let's don't - let's say that, let's say that heaven or
what I'm talking about is similar to the United States
in comparison to the Congo. Now, a greater, greater
distance, but I'm saying that let's say that me and you
jump in our car and we drive back 200 years ago. Okay?
DICK: Okay. Okay.
HR. KORESH: Now, it we came into Dodge City,
you know, wouldn't they be surprised? I mean, wouldn't
6
they just simply tall all over their selves, huh, if we
drove a nice brand new car in there?
DICK: Wouldn't that be something? Have you
ever thought about that?
i HR. KORESH: Well, the thing of it is is that
it you was a had guy you'd have every bar goon and bar,
bar, bar saloon girl there is wouldn't you?
DICK: Well, I'll tell you what, I'd make,
I'd make Matt Dillon look like a piker.
M. KORESH: Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what,
they would think you was, you was from outer space.
DICK: They certainly would, they certainly
would. You know --
HR. KORBSH: Or if you was in General
Custer's day and you came driving up on one of these
Bradleys?
DICK: with a Bradley and a, and an M-16, the
one, the one-eyed man would be king out there, wouldn't
he?
MR. KORESH: I tell you, and those Indians
that would be their, their last stand forever. I mean,
you know, get, get -- let them, let them go around you.
You know, those three, those three ports on each side,
you know --
DICK: Laughter!
HR. KORESH: -- they'd, they'd -- you'd
7
really -- they, they don't know what hit them.
DICK: No, that's, that's true.
HR. KQRESH: I mean, you wouldn't have to use
a 25 mm on them, but, but the thing of it is this:
that's hindsight. I
DICK: Okay. _
HR. XORESH: That's hindsight.
DICK: It is, and, and you know, that's,
that's dealing with the past events. And, you know, in
some degree I guess over the last couple of days we've
talked about some past events. But we want to do is,
is talk about the here, now and the present.
rm. xonssn: Okay.
DICK: Hey listen, the stuff's ready out
there. We, we've got, we've got your stuff out there.
I think they got that suture kit in there and the
photos and, and this tape that we want to get in to
you. Can you, can you send somebody out there? Hold
on, let me, let me see, but I think what - yeah, we're
going to drop it the same place as the phone was and
it's all ready. Is it dropped? Okay. We're ready.
Can you send somebody out? '
MR. KORBSH: Sure, we'll send somebody.
DICK: Okay. Hold on for a second. Let me
clarify. Go ahead. Let me, let me just go away from
you just a second. Hold on.
B
HR. KORESH: Hey, Kathy? Kathy? Kathy?
DICK: Okay. You got any objections to us
dropping that for you?
HR. KORESH: No.
DICK: Okay. He's got --
HR. KORBSH: Is, is, is Greg close by?
DICK: The same as the phone.
HR. KORBSH: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED HALE SPEAKER IN BACKGROUND:
Tell him not to send anybody out.
DICK: Don't send anybody out now. Wait,
wait until I tell you it's been dropped and then
somebody out, but I'll give you the word.
H. KORESH: Okay.
DICK: Fair enough?
HR. KORESH: Okay.
DICK: Good, good. The suture kit, hopefully
David that'll be good for you to, you know, kind of
clean up your wound a little bit. I guess that's
what's in the thing. You, you clean up wounds with
that, right, or stitch up wound? I'm not a doctor
here.
HR. KORESH: Right, stitch up._
DICK: Okay.
HR. KORESH: Kathy, could -- tell -- we'll
send -- did Greg go out last time to get that -- he --
O O
* 9
okay, yeah, so they should know him. All right.
DICK: Okay.
HR. XORESR: So send, so send Greg out
then --
DICK: Okay.
HR. KORESH: -- and the milk's not in it is
it?
DICK: No. Listen --
HR. KORESH: No, the milk hasn't come yet so
you just have to -- don't have no - you don't have no
bread, milk at all anymore?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Indiscernible!
don't have anything.
HR. KORESH: Have you tried to take any of
the indiscernible! or something like that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I tried
everything but nothing's working. I tried everything.
DICK: David, don't, don't you have any milk
products at all?
MR. KORESH: Well, we, we gave, we gave, we
gave the last milk to, to the last -- you know, the
baby went out.
DICK: Okay.
HR. KORESH: And the girls like I said that
have the, have the newborns and the babies, you know,
they're breast-feeding and then all of a sudden they,
10
they start telling me that they're not producing milk
anymore. And I guess it's from the --
DICK: David, listen. Let's handle that.
Send the kids out and let, let us take care of those
kids.
H. KORESH: No, let's don't do that. Let's
don't ask that question at this point here, okay?
DICK: You are -- are you ready to send
out --
MR. KORESH: I, I explained --
DICK: -- the other child now to -- or
whomever you're going to send out to pick up that
stuff? -
HR. KORESH: We're going to send out Greg.
DICK: Greg? what, what's he, a young man?
HR. KORESH: Yeah, well, he's, he's a, he's
a, he's an adult. He's the one that picked up the --
DICK: Oh, okay, Greg that we talked with on
the phone. Okay. I'm sorry.
rm. xoansx-1: Right.
DICK: I thought you were talking about one
of the kids.
MR. KORESH: No, not yet.
DICK: Okay. Don't send him out yet. Just
wait, you know, let's hold here and talk to one another
and then --
11
M. KORESH: Don't, don't send Greg out yet.
DICK: No, just hold him here and then we'll,
we'll give you the word. We'll give you the word.
HR. KORESH: You know, the, the -- originally
the initiation -- that was my initiation to send the
kids out. That wasn't something you all were asking.
DICK: Listen, I, I can appreciate that 100
percent.
HR. KORESH: And Jim kept saying, well, you
know, let's, let's, let's -- and I said now Jim, wait a
minute, you know, we're going to, we're going to get
this resolved but unless, unless, unless you know where
I'm coming from? - '
DICK: Well, you know Dave, tell you what --
HR. KORESH: Have you, have you been sitting
there listening to me talk to, to --
DICK: No, I, I --
HR. KORESH: -- Henry?
DICK: Well, it's -- parts of it, and what
I've been trying to do is get some things done that --
to try to facilitate what you want done. While Jim was
talking to you, I know you were concerned about these
issues so I started things and works and, and we've,
we've gotten to it and that's, that's what I've tried
to do for you. And Jim, Jim --
MR. KORESH: Do you want that, do you want
O O
12
that guy to come in and check on your wounds and all
that? Let me, let me talk to Steve real quick because
he's got some information he wants to relate to you.
DICK: Okay.
HR. KORESH: Just take a second.
DICK: Fair enough. Now, just hold Greg
though until I tell you, okay?
HR. KORESH: Okay.
DICK: Fair enough.
HR. KORESH: All right.
DICK: Talk to you in a minute.
HR. KORESH: Okay. Okay, Steve?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
HR. KORESH: Need to talk to him about that
newscast we just heard.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HR. XORESH: They want us to move the
satellite back around or something. What --
HR. SCHNEIDER: The ATF feds or the FBI?
HR. KORESH: Oh, this is from that other
organization.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Is anybody on the phone right
now? '
HR. KORESH: Yes.
HR. SCHEIDER: Who? Dick?
HR. KORESH: Yes. well, let me ask you
O O
' 13
indiscernible! contact indiscernible!.
Indiscernihle voices in background.!
HR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, Dick? <
DICK: Yeah.
H. SCHNEIDER: Steve here.
DICK: Hey, Steve.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, we're just trying to
get a tew things resolved here I guess --
DICK: Okay.
H. SCHNEIDER: -- so --
DICK: Okay. What, what are you resolving?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Dick is funny, says what,
what were you resolving. Nell, one, I needed to brush
my teeth.
DICK: Laughter!
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, I'm only kidding, I'm
only kidding.
DICK: No, I mean listen, is there something
I can help you with to resolve?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, right, right now, let's
see, there was -- I'm, I'm not even sure. There was a
few things that we needed to get done here I guess
and --
DICK: Okay. _
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- sanitation and all the
rest.
I -- you
this phon
or someth
was there
been gone
about, yo u
suture thi
pictures
about the
the kids
appreciat14
DICK: All tight. p
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, if there was any help,
know, I would definitely let you know. Hello?
DICK: Yeah, I'm here.
d a click.
DICK Well --HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I hear
HR. SCHNEIDER: There's indiscernible! on
e
DICK: Somebody probably stomped on the cord
ing.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly. Okay. Let's see,
anything -- where were we at now because I've
for a little while here?
DICK: Well, I'm, I'm trying to talk to David
know, getting someone out to pick up this
ng that we're looking -- and, and the
HR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I see, okay.
DICK: -- for the kids and --
HR. SCHNEIDER: I see, okay.
DICK: -- that's why I asked you this morning
VHS capability. We got a tape for you with
on it which I'm sure all the parents will
3 --
am. scrmsmrzn: Right.
DICK: -- taking a look at. And, you know,
15
we were dealing with the issues of the press
conference.
H. SCHNEIDER: David said, David said he's
trying to set a scriptural foundation for you that you
might be, be able to build on, that he might be able to
show you things very clearly after that point. But it
doesn't seem like the inner man is too responsive.
DICK: He's got some down time, huh?
HR. SCHNEIDER: He's afraid that you're
another Jim.
DICK: Another Jim?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: Listen, don't paint me with that
brush, please.
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no, no, no, no.
DICK: Please. ,
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, okay.
DICK: I mean, that's not fair to me is it,
huh?
ma. scrmmonn: No, no, I didn't, no, I
didn't, I didn't say that in a, in a nasty or bad way
or anything. I --
DICK: No listen, I want to tell you
something about Jim.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: Jim worked his tail off for you guys.
16
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, don't -- okay, Y°°'re
missing the whole point.
DICK: Okay, okay.
H. SCHNEIDER: Hy, my comment must have went
over your head.
DICK: It, it probably did. I was
probably --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Have you ever been a person
that has looked at religion or tried religions or
looked at the Bible or Buddhism, Hinduism, whatever?
DICK: Hell, not to the degree you have, I
want to be truthful with you.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, no, but the whole thing
is though, I mean what's in every man there's a, a
yearning to know what we're doing, where we're going,
how we got here, all that sort of thing.
DICK: Sure.
HR. SCHNEIDER: And I - and we're a group of
people here that --
DICK: We're all introspective to some degree
aren't we? '
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. But I mean, what he's,
you know, trying to reach with you is there's a lot of
men that wrote in a book where almost two billion
people called Christians or call themselves Christians
say they believe in this book called the Bible.
~ 17
DICK: Uh-huh.
HR. SCHNEIDER: And all these men left their
testimony about final - the final days of Earth's
history. And it's very clear to a lot of people that
there's something to it but they're not sure what; they
don't have the ability to pull the pieces of the puzzle
together for this big clear picture that is formulated
now for people to look at, evaluate and judge. So I
mean what he was sharing with you as I walked up was
something he wanted to help give you somewhat of a
foundation.
DICK: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And in giving you information
you can go anywhere in the world, take that
information, see if it can be controverted, from the
Pope to the this scholar, that scholar, with a DD, a
Ph.D, whatever.
DICK: Um-hum.
HR. SCHNEIDER: And it's not going to happen
because I've traveled with him, found the same. But --
DICK: Well, you, you suggested to me it was
difficult for you to understand and I suppose to a 1
degree you're, you're still learning, are you not?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I'll always be learning.
Whatever, whatever religion is true religion is
education.
18
DICK: Sure, a continuing education.
HR. SCHNEIDER: That's really what it is.
Yeah, it's constantly advancing and understanding and,
and becoming more - pardon?
HR. KORESH: In background! Things that
apply.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Things that apply is right,
the application, the usage --
DICK: Um-hum.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- of knowledge for the
betterment of one's self --
DICK: Sure.
M. SCHNEIDER: -- more -- greater
fulfillment and advancement.
DICK: Well, we can learn from each other
there's absolutely no question about that.
rm. scrmmomz: Okay.
DICK: I, I think there are some things that
I can pass on to you that you probably would find
helpful.
HR. SCHNEIDER: We're going to be staying in
contact with you frequently here if there's anything
else, otherwise I'll be getting off the phone.
DICK: well, let's hold for a minute until we
get this --
. HR. SCHEIDER: Okay.
19
DICK: -- this resolved on the dropping of
the photo for you and everything.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, all right, sure, sure.
DICK: And this -- and apparently --
HR. SCHNEIDER: What, what was the latest
thing on that, Dick? I didn't --
DICK: well, the latest thing like everything
else, there -- you know, all, all things come to he who
waits --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- and --
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, but I mean what were
there details -- you're in the process now -- what --
DICK: No, it's not in the process. I know
you're probably of hearing in this process and you know
what? I'm tired of telling you that too, but they are
going to be there momentarily.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I see, okay.
DICK: We're getting them into, into position
but we, we don't want you to send anybody out until,
until they're dropped.
rm. scrmmomz: All right. So --
DICK: And you and I can continue to talk to
one another and they tell me that it's going to be done
shortly. Now, by whose definition, you know?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
O O
I 20
DICK: I, I know, I know that --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
DICK: -- it seems that as though it takes a
good deal of time and I, I wonder myself why things
take the time that they do.
H. SCHNEIDER: Umhum.
DICK: But you know what? We're all
concerned about one another's safety and that's, that's
what runs this, this thing and we just want to ensure
that you folks know that we don't want any harm to come
to, to anyone. And, you know, I was kind of a little
concerned this morning about David talking about these
Bradleys and blowing up Bradleys or something. Well,
I'm again, I'm not a, a weapons specialist but to me
I'm kind of concerned.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I -- what, what
did - I'm sorry. I wasn't here at - what kind of
comments?
DICK: Well, he said, well, he said, "Hey, if
these Bradleys come in I've got something that'll take
care of Bradleys and we're researched this and we know
what that might take."
HR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, really? Okay. I wasn't
here for that. _
DICK: Well, now I'm a little concerned about
things. I don't know what that means. I
21
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, probably what it means
is this. I mean, I didn't hear the conversation but I,
I was here from Sunday on when, when the negotiations
began like I told you earlier with Jim when he gave his
word as did Gary and a number of others since then that
only would these three vehicles come to the perimeter
at the very closest, none would ever be on the
property. So that was an agreement made right from the
beginning, that no personnel of any of the agencies or
the militia, the military, would be on the property.
But that has been violated constantly and as time has
gone more and more by even running over guard shacks,
other kinds of shacks, property they know not what's
inside, there could be valuables, they don't know. I
mean, such disregard in the first place.
DICK: Well, I, I --
HR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, but, but last --
DICK: -- share your concern.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- but the night before --
was it last night? Yeah, last night 50 feet away from
the one part of the building on the back side, 50 away,
and then they get up --
DICK: Steve, can I ask you a question?
> NR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. .
DICK: Let me ask you a question.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yes.
22
DICK: I find that extremely difficult to
believe, okay?
HR. SCHNEIDER: But now I -- we all viewed it
though.
DICK: You, you heard --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yes -- '
DICK: -- did you hear something or did you
see something?
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, we saw, we saw.
We --
DICN: You saw?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, we looked right at the
Bradley --
DICK: 50 feet from the building?
HR. SCHNEIDER: It came from the white garage
as we call it in the back or the north side of the
property, came over toward what we call the gymnasium,
the big open building. "
DICK: Okay. 50 feet from the building. Is
that what you're telling me?
MR. SCHNEIDER: 50 feet, that's what I was
told.
DICK: Okay. Now, that's a question. That's
what you were told.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Nell, it, it doesn't matter
it was S0 or -- okay, at the extreme it would be 100
' 23
feet. .
DICK: Okay.
H. SCHEIDER: At the extreme.
DICK: All right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It doesn't matter to me if it
was 150.
DICK: Too close is what you're telling me.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it's on the property.
DICK: Okay.
H. SCHNEIDER: It's contrary to the word
given.
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: And one of these -- they get
out, they're fiddling around, fooling around, they're
getting into things. They have been into vehicles in
the -- like toward the -- in the wee hours of the
morning. What is going -- and then what are they --
what's so cute about they drive on the property on the
dirt road up where the guard shack was --
DICK: Um-hum.
H. SCHNEIDER: -- and then they some and sit
in on the property where they said they'd be on the
outside. There's no one on the road so there should be
no problem of them sitting in the middle of the road.
DICK: Well, you know what my explanation to
David was?
O O
24
HR. SCHNEIDER: Then they ran over that
shack. What was that all about? Why --
DICK: well, if there's --
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- why didn't you guy -- why
didn't Jim tell me ahead of time do you mind if we run
that over for -- so we can have a --
DICK: Hey, hey, do you think Jim knew that?
We have told you -- Steve, every time we're aware of
movement we've told you about it.
NR. SCHNEIDER: Well, who's controlling these
guys? Are they on their own --
DICK: Well, I was telling --
NR. SCHNEIDER: -- are they their own nation?
DICK: Laughter!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! against
someone else here or --
DICK: Give, give me, give me a moment so --
HR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
DICK: Give me a moment. You know, sometimes
people are -- have a different interest. The guys that
gravitate toward, you know, riding in tanks and jumping
out of airplanes and stuff like that are a --
HR. SCHNEIDER: I agree, I agree with you.
DICK: -- little different mindset than you
and I, right?
ma. SCHNEIDER: I agree.
' 25
DICK: You know, so when they get a chance to
use a Bradley -- probably half of them have never been
in a Bradley before -- and I never have and I hope I
never do
In fact
kids in
play or
it works,
got to be
I881!
was not
earlier
told meHR. SCHNEIDER: I, I thought the same thing.
DICK: Yeah.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- it reminded me of a lot of
there --
DICK: Absolutely.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- having an opportunity to
DICK: Hey, let's drive this baby and see how
you know?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, sure, but somebody's
above these guys --
DICK: Well --
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- in control of all this.
DICK: -- we, we, we, are, we are, okay? I
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. What I mentioned there
to go through the details again as I did
with you, but it was in response to what you
and what part -- -
n1cx= Okay. '; §
H. SCHNEIDER: -- of that conversation was.
26
DICK: Okay. All right.
HR. SCHNEIDER: So, I mean if intimidation or
any factors of -- we understand to some degree each
other's -- the mind set involved here.
DICK: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So -- just a minute. Okay.
what you say is you -- are you listening?
DICK: Yeah.
HR. SCHNEIDER: What you say is you want us
alive, but what you're actually doing -- the actions
you're showing, I mean, those vehicles and what they're
doing do not show what is coming out of the, out of the
mouths of some of you guys. '
DICK: Well, listen --
HR. SCHNEIDER: That's what he said.
DICK: -- listen. Since Sunday morning there
has not been anyone hurt at all has there?
HR. SCHNEIDER: What -- and what, what do you
think about our part of allowing your men right from
the beginning to come in and take those bodies, take
the wounded? We didn't even want to see them dead or
wounded in the first place, but what did you think that
-- about that on our part --
DICK: Well -- '
H. SCHNEIDER: -- come on in and get those?
Do you know that when you guys entered that front --
27
that door -- well, not you, it was the ATP of
course -- that immediately I -- I didn't even know what
was going on. I heard the gunshot, Wayne Martin and
myself, the attorney, we're on the phone calling 911,
we're screaming to this -- we said, "Who do we have?"
he said his name was Larry; "Larry who?", Larry Lynch.
We're screaming, there's women and children here,
people are dying, they're getting wounded: what is
going on? Call them off, call them off, let's
communicate: that's what we were screaming.
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: And, and, and, and I want to
tell you something --
DICK: Okay. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and the FBI, I hope we can
meet --
DICK: Hold, Steve --
H. SCHNEIDER: Wait now --
DICK: -- Steve, just --
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- I hope you can look --
huh?
DICK: - Steve, give me a break on my ears.
Let's talk, you know, you're getting kind of excited.
Let's -- you know, I know, let's try to,-to talk to one
another a little, little more quiet, my ear hurts.
HR. SCHNEIDER: He said his ear hurts. I am
28
-- I do have a strong voice.
DICK: Yeah, please. I mean, I, I have a, I
have a --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- tendency to do that too, so --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Excuse me for that, excuse
me.
DICK: Yeah, let's just -- let me say the
stuff has been dropped out there, okay? But there's
apparently a fellow outside your place there getting
water or something?
HR. SCHNEIDER: When? Where?
DICK: Right now, or, or seconds ago --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, if that's so I know
nothing about it.
DICK: well, please make sure that the folks
know that --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, okay, let's do it both
ways.
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: If you want to -- if you see
a guy getting water and you pick him off -- well, you
know, just --
DICK: No, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, listen to me.
DICK: Okay.
29
HR. SCHNEIDER: The same with your guys --
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: - which have been violating
this thing since Sunday night.
DICK: That's what I'm trying to tell you.
I've always told when they were going to move.
H. SCHNEIDER: And I - yes, but it has not
quit on your side, period, not one --
DICK: Is Greg there?
HR. SCHNEIDER: and not once have you
people told us that you were going to do those kind of
things. That's what I'm trying to say.
DICK: Well, we've -»
HR. SCHNEIDER: Even though we've been --
DICK: -- tried to call you -- every time we
know there's going to be movement we have tried to call
you.
H. SCHNEIDER: That has not happened that
way. And then also that message that has come across
on the TV is that these -- we called -- when they call
us we answer right away.
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: That's what has been told.
And when you call us it's been said that you don't
always get us. Well, anytime this phone rings we pick
it up to answer and always have to talk to you people.
O 0
30
DICK: Steve, the simple answer to that is if
that's true, we didn't say that, and secondly --
H. SCHNEIDER: It was said and --
DICK: I mean I'm talking about me --
H. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- the guy that's talking to you --
HR. SCHNEIDER: It was the ATF.
DICK: -- or Jim. What we have --
H. SCHNEIDER: It was the man
indiscernible!
DICK: -- what, what we have is, is equipment
-- if we call you and you don't answer maybe the
equipment is not ringing through. I mean, that,
that's, that's a minor thing there.
HR. SCHNEIDER: All right. Just, just a
second --
DICK: It means absolutely nothing.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- Dick, I'm talking -- I
guess there's a request here. Just a second.
DICK: Okay. Is Greg ready to go out and
pick -- '
H. SCHNEIDER: Dick, is the milk out there?
They dropped something off now or --
HR. DICK: Well, they dropped off the, the
kit, the suture kit and --
HR. SCHNEIDER: The -- suture kit.
31
DICK: - and some photographs and --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Photographs.
DICK: -- videotape.
HR. SCHNEIDER: The videotape.
DICK: Yeah.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: Yeah. And that should be out there.
You, you ready to send to Greg out?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, Greg is ready to go
now.
DICK: Okay. Hold on for a second and let --
rm. scmu-2102212: All right.
Indiscernible voices in background.!
DICK: Hold on for a second, okay? I got to
get this last confirmation. You know, this is like
dealing with my wife.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Dick?
DICK: Yeah?
HR. SCHNEIDER: See, what bothers me is look
at how quick you can radio and say it's okay for him to
come out to even the Bradley that dropped it off and
how come there's not that control about the other two,
three that are around --
DICK: Well, it's not quick. We've been --
I've been telling you --
M. SCHNEIDER: No, no, it was. Look at how
32
quick you, you were able to, okay, he can now come out
and, and, you know, they just dropped it off. You guys
have some efficiency with the technology and, you know,
through communications indiscernible!.
DICK: You know, you know, you know when I
gave them these photos? I gave them these photos a
long time ago. Nothing is done quickly, unfortunately
and when you're dealing with these numbers of people it
can't be. I mean, that's a fact of life. Let's, let's
face it.
M. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, --
DICK: You're used to that.
HR. SCHNEIDER: - basically, the, the tenor
of what I'm saying you can pick up on being that we're
somewhat disappointed and, and unsatisfied because of
the movement of these men. I think last night might
have been the first time they calmed down a little, I
didn't really get too many reports.
DICK: Um-hum, well, good, and we, we keep --
H. SCHNEIDER: And I hope that's because of
your -- "
DICK: well, we're --
H. SCHNEIDER: -- your involvement and maybe
Henry, I don't know.
DICK: Exactly, we're trying to get this
thing -- we're trying to get this thing -- we're trying
33
to communicate those kinds of things to the others that
are part and parcel of this, of this thing, okay?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, Dick, he's going to be
heading out then now if that's okay.
DICK: Okay. Hold on for just a second
here --
HR. SCHNEIDER: All right, all right.
DICK: -- let me, let me, let me see.
Indiscernible voices in background.!
DICK: You were pleased with that conference
that press conference this morning though?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I liked the, the man
that spoke on the behalf of your --
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: - agency.
DICK: Yeah.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I thought, you know, he was
very mildmannered.
DICK: Sure.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, I liked everything
about him, trying to be frank, honest --
DICR: Good.
NR. SCHNEIDER: -- and --
DICK: Well, you've got to be.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I really - you know, I've
never had a problem with the department - the Federal
34
Bureau of -- all my life, I was growing up as a kid
indiscernible!
DICK: You ever dealt with FBI agents?
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, I haven't.
DICK: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: But I've had people that i've
known that have had good experiences with them. I've
always held certain agencies like that in a very high
esteem. I grew up as a little boy looking at
policemen, firemen in the same light as something one
would want to be or at least you'd think to be when
you're young and I've always had the highest regard for
agencies like this. That one I never knew anything
about because I was never involved in alcohol,
tobacco --
DICK: Okay. Well --
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- or firearms was that
department. '
DICK: Let's discuss that a bit. First of
all, send, send Greg out, okay --
rm. SCHNEIDER: All right. .
DICK: -- or whomever. Send them out to tell
-- make the pick-up. '
HR. SCHNEIDER: He's, he's ready to go.
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: He's got the clearance?
35
DICK: He's got to go on out and take the
gear.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Go ahead.
DICK: Let us know when he's gone just so I
can pass it on.
HR. SCHNEIDER: The tape and suture -- a kit
of sutures and forth. Okay. He's heading out.
_ DICK: Okay. He's heading out the door now?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, not yet. He's, he's
just heading down. He's --
DICK: He's heading down. He's --
HR. SCHNEIDER: He'll be at the door in about
30 seconds.
DICK: Okay. Okay. Well, listen, I - you
know, that, that was a positive note that you passed on
to me, I appreciate that. You know, I've been with --
HR. SCHNEIDER: What was the man's name again that
was a spokes person for your department there?
DICK: Ricks.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Rick, that's right.
DICK: Yeah. You know, I've been with the
FBI for, for a good many years and I've, I've always
felt --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Very professional.
36
DICK: -- felt that I could get along with
people well and, and our organization deals with people
I think very fairly and compassionately.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, so far I would agree
with that. I don't know of any incidences that I've
ever heard from anybody that has had anything bad to
say. I've known a lot of situations that have come
where you, you men did very well. I mean, you used a
lot of wisdom and sense in certain situations.
DICK: Sure.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I, I've never heard anything
really bad to be honest with you.
DICK: Well, we take pride in that. That's
what we're here to do. We're here to, to certainly
enforce the, the violations of, of law, but, but we're
here to do things within the parameters of the
constitution.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I like to hear that.
That's great.
DICK: And that's, that's - I've been in the
Bureau 20-some years now, 22 years, and I've always,
I've always done that and, and the agents I deal with
act in the same fashion. And I don't think that you'll
have anybody inside there that would quarrel with, with
that at all.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
37
DICK: we, we're going to continue to do that
and that's why we're dealing with you here. That's why
we were asked to go ahead and, and deal with you
because we --
HR. SCHNEIDER: You know that I
thought that -- there was a few questions
asked by the press. I would have --
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: - thought that
have been able to even answer better than
agent. The guy seems to be very mute andwould have
actually
Rick would
the other ATF
-- I -- well,
I suppose if I was in his shoes after what took place I
guess I would be too and no one wants to incriminate
themselves.
DICK: Well, that's why -- you know, that's
why you guys are going to have to get the
Now listen, I --word out.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I would like even ahead of
time to -- I'd like to get some of the --
that were seen as to what happened.
DICK: That's what we're askingthe accounts
you to do.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, before walking out,
that's what I'm talking about. I'd like to see a
little reaction to the -- what -- the accounts of --
DICK: But, but you know what?
H. SCHNEIDER: -- some of the --
38
DICK: You have to tell them. ;
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- I want to tell you ~
something. There were some of these women and young
kids that were actually at the, the wall, the front
area --
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- when all those bullets
started riddling through the sides missing little
babies. I -- you ought to -- I ought to take pictures
and send the pictures out.
DICK: Steve, that's exactly what we're
asking you to tell the world.
HR. SCHNEIDER: You -- you'd be amazed.
DICK: Okay? No, that's what I'm asking you
to do, tell the world. The press wants to hear that,
the court wants to hear it, the U.S. Congress --
HR. SCHNEIDER: If they do then put a line --
why don't you -- why did you cut our lines off then if
the press wants to hear? Let us dialogue with them.
DICK: Well, we've got to resolve the --
this, this incident first.
HR. SCHNEIDER: No -- you -- actually you're
doing it your way of course, you, you say you have to.
Yeah, in your --
DICK: No, no, I said we --
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- from your eyes you need
39
to --
DICK: -- have to. We have to, Steve. That
is -- that means -- you still there?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: Okay. That means you folks there and
us we have to get this resolved. You will have every
chance, every chance to tell exactly what you want to
tell. And you know what? You're going to tell it to
so many people and have so much opportunity you're
going to be -- there are going to be people standing in
line to represent you. _
HR. SCHNEIDER: I guess, you know, my
reaction to that is kind of ho-hum, of course, because
there's no better --
DICK: But why? Why?
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- because there's no better
time than the present especially with --
DICK: Yeah, but listen, listen --
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- something as --
DICK: -- you told me moments ago that your
dealings with the FBI have been --
M. SCHNEIDER: Well, I've -- I told you also
I've never dealt with them, but my -- .
DICK: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- observations, what I know
about them, what I've seen have been --
40
DICK: what you've seen --
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- held very high.
DICK: and others, and others that you
know that have dealt with the FBI.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
DICK: I am telling you and they are telling
you that you will get every opportunity to express
those concerns. Congressional oversight is being done
on this incident. This is not -- this has never
happened in law-enforcement history. It's going to be,
it's going to be picked apart. It's going to be
examined. It's going to be critiqued. It's going to
be argued. All those things will be done. And you're
going to be part of that operation. You're going to be
listened to. You're going to get the opportunity.
But, you know, what has to he done is you have to come
out to be able to do that. How, how else would you do
it? How else would you do that?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Very easy. The communication
line is going to be open right now where there can be a
dialogue, there can be a given a response a lot of
things can he opened up, many of the issues right from
here betore one even does that. I've seen too many
times in the past through others that have been
arrested and so torth that they're taken away never to
be heard from again until they're in a court of law and
41
they never really do because of their circumstances or
the environment have an opportunity to really open up
as to what really took place.
DICK: Is Greg, is Greg back, Steve?
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, he isn't.
DICK: Okay. Well, let me know when he comes
back in, will you?
H. SCHNEIDER: I will, I will.
DICK: Okay. Now listen, a case in point was
those two ladies the other day.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: You heard that they'd been charged
with this and that. We went --
HR. SCHNEIDER: By the way, who was behind
making such a quick move to do such a thing as that in
the first place?
DICK: Well, you know, it's not us, I'll
guarantee you. And again, I told you I'd never lie to
you and I'm telling you I don't know but we got it
taken care of didn't we? We went to them and said,
listen, these are elderly ladies, you think they're in
there shooting out the doors? ,Absolutely not. And
what we did, we went to the appropriate people and said
this is, this is not right, this is just not
acceptable. And they took care of it.
M. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Isn't it funny how in
42
different countries or societies or situations
something can either be murder, it can be war, it can
be killing? Isn't it something? Like -- a country,
someone's in their home and someone else is trying to
blow apart their house. What do they do? Depends upon
what country at what time apparently you live doesn't
it? Like I'll tell you the truth, what I've seen and
noticed from a lot of people for a long time, where
were the FBI and the agencies when the L.A. riots were
taking place? Where was the protection for those
people? If they didn't have some of their own firearms
and so forth what would have they done? See, even at
this very - what about the billions of dollars that
are being moved around because of drugs and so forth?
where are all the agencies there getting all these big
guys constantly?
DICK: You know what? You know what? I'll,
I'll address that issue with you very clearly. I used
to work narcotics years ago.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Uhhuh.
DICK: You know, resources are unbelievably
short in this country to deal with an issue like that.
You think that I do not have the same opposition to
those kinds of activities that you do? 5
HR. SCHNEIDER: I'm sure you do.
DICK: 100 percent. I've got children in the
43
school system, we all do. That is not acceptable to us
in any fashion.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, can I, can I
give you an example of the way I've seen it through the
years?
DICK: Sure, sure.
H. SCHNEIDER: Like for instance I'm living
in Hawaii where one Saturday night there was a church
group of us playing a game of volley ball.
DICK: Uh-huh.
HR. SCHNEIDER: And we came back to the cars.
One of the cars
stolen and some
of the car. we
hour and a halfhad been broken in, hundreds of dollars
different items had been also taken out
contacted the police. They came an
later. Never heard from them again. I
had a car stolen back in the seventies. Called the
department up, also never heard from them again. But
one day I'm driving down the street with my wife and a
female police officer came off of a, a ramp and hit is
broadside. I saw her coming. I tried to get away,
swerved in the oncoming lane to give her room --
DICK: 0
HR. SCHNEIDER: - but she still got me. And
within minutes, within minutes there's like six squad
cars there at her help. And what is going on?
DICK:Well --
44
HR. SCHNEIDER: Do you know what I'm saying?
DICK: Absolutely, I know exactly.
HR. SCHNEIDER: You always find police
officers if you're two, two miles an hour over the law
going down the road but when I've ever called them
because of theft or because of other problems,
seriously, I don't know what's happened.
DICK: Okay. Well, let me ask you --
HR. SCHNEIDER: I really don't know what's
happened.
DICK: -- you mean you've only gotten one
ticket in your life?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, no, of course not.
DICK: Okay. Well, how many times? I mean,
this is obviously a very minor point. But --
HR. SCHNEIDER: But, you know, you understand
what I'm saying.
DICK: -- many of the times that you've
done broken the law - I mean, let me say this. We
all speed. But how many times we've been picked up for
speeding because there's nobody there? We - we, and
I'm going to say loosely law enforcement in general, we
have only so much ability to address all these problems
and please don't hold us to - A
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, I don't. I'm just
saying overall what the problem is, it starts at a very
45
small level of course is what I'm saying.
DICK: But, but I understand that. The rest
of the law-enforcement people understand that. You
know --
HR. SCHNEIDER: I'm sure they do because --
DICK: -- sure we do. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- they're involved in the
same process --
DICK: Exactly.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- the same society and, you
know, I mean it, it goes for everyone of course.
DICK: It's, it's, it's something -- you
know, we would love to address all crime. Let's face
it --
MR. SCHNEIDER: True, true.
DICK: -- we can't do it.
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, I agree.
DICK: Absolutely cannot do it. So what we
have to do is prioritize certain things and deal with
it as best we can with the resources available to us,
you know?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
DICK: And what I might want to address and
what my bosses might want to address are two different
things. In much the same way you probably have some
difference of opinion with, with, with David don't you?
46
HR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, by the way, Dick, I
wanted to let you know they're back with, with the
supplies --
n1cx= Okay. Good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- inside the building.
DICK: Is that, is that, is that what you're
looking for?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Whoops, someone just stepped
on the cord.
DICK: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Now, what were you
saying? I didn't hear that.
DICK: Well, I'm just saying that's, that's
what you're looking for?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Apparently so. I --
DICK: Okay. Take a look at those pictures.
I think you'll be happy with them. I, I hope --
u. scumnrnna: Okay.
DICK: -- what it does is make the, the
parents feel good in there. Okay? I
N. SCHNEIDER: I'm sure it will.
DICK: It will.
H. SCHNEIDER: We'll hook it up to the --
DICK: Okay. Well, why don't you go ahead
and take a look at that and --
um. scnnnxnzn: All right.
. Q
I 47
DICK: -- I'll get back to you in a short
time and tell David that I -- you know, I appreciate
talking to him, I'd like to talk to him again --
HR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
DICK: -- when we get back and listen, it's
been good talking to you. K
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. He's worn out from
that conversation already. He's already sleeping.
DICK: well, I hope that's not true because I
think we can work together all three of us.
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no, what I mean is --
DICK: Oh, you mean physically --
H. SCHNEIDER: -- you know --
DICK: -- he just --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: -- he has a difficult --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly. Exactly.
DICK: Okay. Well, hey, let him -- you got
the --
HR. SCHNEIDER: We'll let him rest for a
little while. I'll come --
DICK: Well, that or, or --
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- back and peek in on him
and indiscernible!.
DICK: Okay. Or get, get the cord over to
him, phone over to him there. But listen --
0 O
48
H. SCHNEIDER: Oh, it is. The phone is
right by him.
DICK: Okay. You take -- make sure he gets
some treatment there --
H. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- that he needs with that, with that
kit there. And take a look at those -- I think that
you'll be happy with what, what, what I've got done for
you and, and I hope so --
102. scxmmonm Okay.
DICK: -- because that was not an easy thing
to do. You know, I -- we pushed for that.
HR. SCHNEIDER: What? Medical supplies?
DICK: well, the, the medical supplies. But
I'm talking more, more about the, the, the kids. We
felt that that was absolutely necessary to, to get that
stuff to the parents. And frankly, I went out on a
limb for you.
HR. SCHNEIDER: well, obviously from your
point of view you guys are working on a psychologically
emotional perspective also between the children and the
parents so it's not only --
DICK: What we're working on --
H. SCHNEIDER: -- it's not only that
you're --
DICK: -- is human understanding --
O O
I 49
HR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
DICK: -- and concern.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, let's --
bottom line is you would like us to come out and
so -- and I agree with you. If I was in your, your
chair sitting there also, I understand, I understand
from every perspective and I feel --
DICK: Well, let's look at it from the human
perspective rather than -- l
H. SCHNEIDER: well, that's - we are --
DICK: -- you want to do this, we want to do
that.
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no, no, you're right,
that's what we are doing. We are doing that.
DICK: Okay. Well, let's, let's continue to,
to talk --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- like that and we'll get it done.
HR. SCHNEIDER: We will, Dick, we will.
DICK: won't we?
HR. SCHNEIDER: we sure will.
DICK: Darn right. an right.
H. SCHNEIDER: Appreciate - in calling --
DICK: We'll be back to you.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Real good. Thanks,
Dick.
50
DICK: Bye now.
M. SCHNEIDER: Good-bye.
u 1 a a ¢
SHERRIE: Hello?
DICK: Hi. This is Dick. Who's this?
SHERRIE: This is Sherrie. ;
DICK: Sherrie, how are you?
BHERRIE: Fine. ;
DICK: Good. Did you get those pictures of
your kids
SHERRIE: Yes.
DICK: Good. What did you think of them?
SHERRIE: Great.
DICK: Good. They lessen your concern a
little bit?
SHERRIE: A little, but the, the tape seems
to be blank.
DICK: Oh, come on don't tell me that. The
tape is blank? I
SHERRIE: Yeah, yeah.
DICK: Oh, come on.
SHERRIE: Just a minute. Let me get the guys
that were working with it. Just a minute.
DICK: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED HALE SPEAKER ll IN BACKGROUND!:
It's three minutes and so many second long. Got all
51
the kids on there. Wasn't blank this morning.
DICK: I assume we ran it before we sent it
out. we all saw it.
UNIDENTIFIED HALE SPEAKER I1: We all saw it.
DICK: I mean, they were transferred over
though. V
UNIDENTIFIED HALE SPEAKER #1: :That was a
copy that the tech guys gave me. They said, "Here's a
copy." That's right.
UNIDENTIFIED HALE SPEAKER I2: Did they
rewind it to the stops?
UNIDENTIFIED HALE SPEAKER ll: That's
possible. They said, "Here, here's a copy of that tape
and here's the other tape. I have the, the - "
DICK: Rewind it all the way back - I assume
that they tested the copy they gave. Yeah.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
DICK: Yeah.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, Dick. A
DICK: Hey, Steve. You're going to tell me
that that thing is blank, that tape?
N. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it is.
DICK: Did you run it back to the stops, all
the way back?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, all the way back.
DICK: And you played it and --
52
HR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
DICK: -- and, and you see nothing on there?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Nothing's on it. We tried a
couple of VCRs. We took a couple of videos we had that
were, you know, purchased, regular VHS videos. They
worked but this didn't. _ I
nzcx: wen, that's, *that's hard for me to V
believe.
H. SCHNEIDER: I, I -- strange, it is. In
fact --
DICK: I'm telling you, sometimes it's
exasperating to try to work things out because --
HR. SCHNEIDER: I know, I know. In fact, we
thought maybe it might be at the very end of the tape.
It looked like kind of a long tape, maybe a twohour
tape so --
DICK: No, no, it, it should have been at the
beginning of the thing.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
DICK: But, but that, that is --
H. SCHNEIDER: I know weird things --
DICK: I'm going to talk with some, with some
people to see what --
H. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, weird things do happen
because I once did a nice video and I went back, looked
it over and then rewound it once. And then I handed it
53
to a guy. He told me there was nothing on it. I said,
what? I said, I just went and checked the whole thing
through. This was like six months ago. And the same
thing had happened to me so --
DICR: No, that, that shouldn't happen this
time and I'll apologize for that --
HR. SCHNEIDER: That's okay. V
DICK: -- and work on it. How --
HR. SCHNEIDER: That's all right.
DICK: -- how about the pictures now?
HR. SCHNEIDER: The pictures --
DICK: The pictures --
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- yeah, they're -- obviously
they're here and they're the --
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- mothers and the different
ones are looking at them and --
DICK: Good.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- and I think they're happy
with what they see.
DICK: Good. Well, I'll tell you what. Let
ne -- you know, once you and I haye spent some time
together --
HR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
DICK: -- why don't you let me talk to those
folks. I want to make them know that we're real
O I
54
concerned about their kids and I'll do whatever I can
to make them teel a little better about that? How
about David's stuff?
M. SCHNEIDER: Well, in fact, right now he's
sleeping.
DICK: Okay, but he did get some of the --
get the stuff that he needed there? ;
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. They pulled it in. I
don't think -- I think some of the nurses they pulled
it out of the box, looked it over. I think it's like
you say it's something they can use and --
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: But they, they are not --
they, they want to let him finish sleeping and then as
soon as he wakes up --
DICK: They'll fix him up?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: So, thank you for that also.
DICK: Nell -- '
HR. SCHNEIDER: I really appreciate it.
DICK: -- all right. We're, we're trying to
work with you, we're trying to work with you.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I know you are, I know you
are.
DICK: well, good. The kids, kids are --
y 55
they're doing well, they really are.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I, I believe that. I, I
could tell and even by the - they had a - I believe
it was some of the social workers there on TV? I just
got to catch the last part of that and I - from what I
heard they, they stated a few fairly decent things.
DICK: Okay. Well, I knew that they were
going to attempt to do that. I didn't realize it was
I »
going to be on TV already.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
DICK: But I know -- you know, I don't want
to be redundant, okay?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
DICK: But I do know that everybody is
concerned about the welfare of those kids.
rm. scrmnruzn: Right.
DICK: I suppose to a degree, you know, that
welfare can be reached by different means and, and
there may be some honest and, and legitimate
differences of opinion there. '
rm. SCHNEIDER: Right.
DICK: But I know we're all concerned about
the kids and getting those kids to their loved ones.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
DICK: And it may not be done today or
tomorrow, but it'll be done as quickly as we can sort
56
this out.
M. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: And you got to - you have to bear
with us.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I -- you, you are sure about
that yourself then? It doesn't seem like there would
be a problem ultimately for them to get indiscernible!
DICK: Oh, yeah, ultimately. Listen -- our,
our ultimate goal and hope that is that they're going
to be reunited with, with their actual parents.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
DICK: And, and, and, you know --
H. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- we've, we've I think indicated that
and, and it will happen.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
DICK: It's a question of, you know --
HR. SCHNEIDER: But you would know more about
that from, you know, the lawful point of_view than I
would -- -
DICK: Yeah. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- never being involved in
such --
DICK: Well, let's face it. The, the parents
are -- everybody wants their -- unless there's some
absolute reason that somebody's an unfit parent --
57
HR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah.
DICK: - and I certainly don't get any
indication of that from --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly, right.
DICK: - from anybody that we've dealt with
here.
HR. SCHNEIDER: This is true.
DICK: Yeah.
H. SCHNEIDER: I'm sure of that.
DICK: Well, good, good.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: Good.
an. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: Well, when are you going to me
something? Are you going to do something for me now?
HR. SCHNEIDER: What do you have in mind?
DICK: Huh?
HR. SCHNEIDER: What do you have in mind?
DICK: Come on out.
4 rm. SCHNEIDER: Come on out?
DICK: Listen, I, I just, I just want you to
reel good about with, with the kids, okay?
rm. scx-mzzxnnm 1 know, 1 know.
DICK: Okay. A i
HR. SCHNEIDER: To tell you - well, it's --
I've never -- I mean, this is -- obviously this is a
58
very strange predicament to be in and I wish it would
have never happened. Like none of us here ever dreamed
of such a thing. But at the same time we're still
waiting to see what he might have to say. We want to
give him that opportunity -- the very reason we're in
here in the first place.
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: 80 --
DICK: Well, and Steve, we can work this out,
you know?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I'm sure we can. I'm
sure we can.
DICK: You know, you might have to take it on
yourself to - if, if that's your belief and, and maybe
you and Dave can work this thing out between you.
H. SCHNEIDER: Well, I've been talking with
him and communicating with him as - you know, as
frequently as I can because --
DICK: Um-hum.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- of his health problem,
but --
DICK: Sure. Well, he's going to need some
help from you obviously. He can't do it all himself.
You know, that's, that's why for instance, you know,
Henry: been here and --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
59
DICK: -- and Jim has been here and, and I've
been here because, you know, we can't -- it can't be
done by, by yourself.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Umhum.
DICK: David can't do it by himself. He
needs some, some, some assistance and some support from
you. And, you know, I'm hoping that we can work these
things out between us.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we definitely want to
do that, want to try. So, you know, we'll keep on
communicating, keeping the lines open and --
DICK: You know, one, one thing I, I'd like
you bear in mind here --
nm. scrmmnm: Okay.
DICK: -- okay, I've gone to bat for you on a
couple of these different things and I think they've
worked out
I need you to go to bat for me between
you know? I need you to go to bat for
be able to tell me boss that listen, I
and in return they, they were grateful
for me.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I realize --the
me.
got
and
youand you've indicated as such and, you know,
two of us,
I want to
this done
- something
know, I
realize that the part you play from your position and,
you know, your office that that's normally what you
would do. And I - in fact, like I told you if I was
in your shoes I'd be doing the best I could --
DICK: Um-hum.60
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- to alleviate anything, to
break down the barriers to get it taken care of,
everyone to come out. and normally I'm with you
that. But the situation is, you know, right now
would like to do anything I can for you. Ifyou
request I'll tell you I'll try to. But it still
down to the people are here not really to listenon
I
have a
comes
to me
so much, but they're here because they heard this man
open up the Bible, see, and that's where the conviction
lies.
DICK: Well, I know that.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, just so you basically
understand that's -- it's pretty hard to go against an
individual's convictions of things that --
DICK: Oh, and I don't --
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: -- and I'm not asking you to go
HR. SCHNEIDER: No, I know you didn't say
it --
DICK: No, no.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- I know you didn't.
didn't imply it --
DICK: No.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- not to say that youYou
even
O 0
61
did.
DICK: No, but you know, it's been my --
M. SCHNEIDER: But see, that's what I'm
saying. See, that's where the difficulty lies for --
DICK: Oh, I know that. But it's also been
my experience that when people -- they'll listen to
reason and reason is all we're asking for here.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you're going to find
these are the most reasonable -- if you wanted to speak
with anyone here you can get any kind of a discussion
you would like with them --
DICK: Um-hum.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- asking questions, making
points and --
DICK: Sure. You know what? That's, that's
a good idea because, you know, I, I indicated earlier I
think I wanted to talk to each and every one of these
folks to make sure that they feel comfortable with what
we've been able to do with their kids.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Sure -- in fact, you know, I
told them --
DICK: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: -- even the last few days,
David did, anyone that would like to talk with anyone
on the phone feel free to do so.
DICK: Okay. Well, let's do that. Why, why
62
don't you let me talk to the gal I was speaking with
earlier. She was going to see if that tape worked.
Listen, if that tape doesn't work --
NR. SCHNEIDER: who was -- I, I didn't know
who it was because I was in another part of the
building.
DICK: Sherrie.
H. SCHNEIDER: Sherrie?
DICK: Yeah, the mother of one of the kids.
And you know what we're going to do? You guys go ahead
and fiddle with that tape some more so you're quite
convinced and we'll send you down another one and this
time we'll make sure that we'll get one that works.
HR. SCHNEIDER: I, I would imagine you must
have a copy. That was maybe a copy of another one
you --
DICK: Yeah.
NR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. That's good. That's
strange.
DICK: Yeah, yeah. And you know who, who
we're particularly concerned about too is Sita because
I know she was very concerned about her kids and had
lent some Bibles out and the kids dolls.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
DICK: So I certainly would like to speak to
her. And -- '
63
HR. SCHNEIDER: You know, I'm in a place
right now -- usually this time of day there's --
everybody is around.
DICK: Um-hum. 5 ;
H. SCHNEIDER: They're like on top of you --
DICK: Okay.
H. SCHNEIDER: -- it's hard to hear. But
right now no one's even around where I'm sitting.
DICK: Okay. Well, I'll tell you what.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
DICK: Why don't you, why don't you go round
those folks up and I'll call you back in 15 minutes?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. We can do that.
DICK: How's that? Can we do that?
HR. SCHNEIDER: Let me see now. I'm trying
to take a look to see where some of these people might
he. If you would you could pass the word that there's
an FBI agent by the name of Dick. He's a negotiator.
He's very open. He wants to give people an opportunity
to talk with him or it they'd like to ask him
questions, he'd like to give them some offers. Just --
you know, he wants to be friendly with them and see
what he can do in their behalf. So, you know, if
there's any of the people around, you know --
Indiscernible voices in background.!
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, yeah, right. Or even
64
now. If there: anybody now he's more than willing and
would like to talk to anybody.
Indiecernible female voice in background.!
HR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, okay. They told me --
see, I didn't even realize the time but they said it
was worship hour.
DICK: Okay.
H. SCHNEIDER: From between 2:00 and 3:00 we
just kind of sit down --
DICK: 2:00 and 3:00? E
H. SCHNEIDER: -- read the -- yeah, right at
3:00 or thereafter. I'll call you or you can call me
and I'll Btart trying to get something going.
DICK: Okay. Let's shoot for about, you
know, 3:10 or so.
u. scansrozn: Okay. 1'11 --
End of Tape I54.!
92
E
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE I55
3/5/93
2:46 P.H. 4:04 P.H.
tape I55 started
DICK: -- Okay.
STEVE:
DICK: l
STEVE: -- that's
DICK:
call around 3:15 then?
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK: All right,2
in middle of sentence!
So between two and three --
Well, you give me a call --
quiet hour.
Okay, and you're going to give me a
Yeah, I will do that. -
Fair enough.
Talk to you then, Jim.
yeah, bye.
iiiii
SITA: Hello.
DICK:
SITA: Yes.
DICK:
you doing? '
SITA:
DICK: GOOd. Did
the pictures we sent in for
SITA: Yes. They
DICK: Good. I'm
them? Do you feel a littleHow are you? This is Dick.Hi, who's this? Sita?
HOW GIG
I'm doing fine, thanks.
you get a chance to look at
you?
were beautiful.
glad you're happy with
more comfortable now?
SITA: Yes, a little bit.
DICK: Good. What do you mean a little bit?
I hear -- it sounds like a small child in the
background that I hear.
SITA: Yeah.
DICK: Well the tape -- apparently the tape
never was, there was nothing on that tape. Did you --
are you still there?
[QQPJ
1 Q Q 1 0
STEVE: Hello.
DICK: Hello.
STEVE: Hello, Dick?
DICK: Yeah, can you hear me?
STEVE: Crazy phone, yeah, -- you see it's
got -- it's a phone that has two lines into it and
there's a --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Once in a while if one is being
touched or pushed that happens.
DICK: Okay, all right. Yeah, I spoke --
STEVE: I've got, I've got a few people here
that want to speak with you, so. j
DICK: Okay. Listen, while I'm talking to
them, I just want to let you know there is another
press conference --
STEVE: At what time?
DICK: Coming up at 3:30, so you just might
want to be alert to that.
4
STEVE: Okay. So I'll let them know that
you'll talk with them about -- I
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE: -- ten minutes and --
DICK: Yeah, send them --
STEVE: - then, like yourself, we will be
viewing that press conference.
DICK: Okay, and I'll get back to you as soon
as that's over.
STEVE: Okay, thanks Dick.
DICK: Fair enough.
STEVE: Here's Kathy Schroeder.
DICK: Okay.
KATHY: Hello, Dick.
DICK: Hi Kathy, how are you?
KATHY: Pretty good.
DICK: Good. You get a chance to take a look
at the photo?
KATHY: Yes, I did.
DICK: And your children are in there?
KATHY: Yes.
DICK: Okay. Which children are yours,
Kathy?
KATHY: Scott, Jacob, Kristen and Brian.
DICK: Scott, Jacob, Kristen and Brian.
KATHY: And I'm, and the other night I talked
5
to Scott and Krissy, and then when I talked to Jake, I
didn't get much of a chance to talk to him.
DICK: Okay.
KATHY: And at the time I didn't even know if
he was with Scott and Krissy.
DICK: Okay, well, the kids are all together.
I think you - I hope you feel more comfortable about
that. -
KATHY: And I wanted to check on Brian
because he did have a fever Sunday, and he was throwing
up Honday night before he left and I wanted to check on
his health right now.
DICK: Okay. Well, I'll make note of that
and in other words one child I know that was taken
to the doctor that may have had pneumonia.
KATHY: But you don't know who it was?
DICK: No, that, that is, that is him.
That's he and he was given antibiotics.
KATHY: Okay.
DICK: Yeah. His fever is down, gone, and
those antibiotics I think took care of it. Of course,
they usually do pretty quickly if it doesn't get too
far along. So, yeah.
KATHY: He was real bad Sunday and Monday.
DICK: I know he was very concerned about you
not being there, and obviously you've got the four kids
there.6
You want to get to them as soon as you can.
KATHY: He was, he is very young, 80, I ea"
DICK: Sure he is.
KATHY: He'll be three Sunday and he just --
DICK: Those kids grow up quickly too, 59't
they?
KATHY: -- hasn't been away from me very
often so it's hard on
DICK: Sure
KATHY: But
DICK: As a
those kinds of things
KATHY: Yeahhim.
it is. It's hard on you too.
father, you know, I understand
DICK: Well, he'll be fine, but do you know
what? You know how we can get -- you need to -- care
yourself. Now, were you one of those people that had
specific instructions
wanted to stay?
KATHY: Yesto give the kids about where they
DICK: Okay, and the kids had that. And I
told the, Steve and David, the kids are all together
now, and --
KATHY: I know they're going to be going to
the Child Protective Agency, but I --
DICK: Well let's hope you -- let's hope that
7
that doesn't happen, okay?
KATHY: Yeah --
DICK: I'm certainly not going to tell you
it's not going to happen at some point in time.
KATHY: But if it were to happen, I just, I
just, I just know it's going to be a real hassle for
the kids to have to go through a lot of, you know,
different homes and different places if they're not
placed immediately with their father.
DICK: well, I know that and you know that
and, and we're going to try to deal with those issues
as best we can.
KATHY: I mean, I would have them here with
me if it were up to me.
DICK: Well, I'm sure the kids want to be
with you too.
KATHY: But for their own safety is why
they're out there. '
DICK: Well -- '
KATHY: Because there's no telling what these
people are going to do to us. 4
DICK: Well, now, what people are you talking
about?
KATHY: Oh, I know what's out there.
DICK: Well, but I mean, when you say, "these
people" you are including me because I'm one of these
8
people out here and I'm telling you --
KATHY: But you may not have the, the same
mind frame as some of the others that are out there
just doing their jobs.
DICK: well, no, I can answer that for you
and, you know, I've tried to communicate this as --
have the other fellows that haye talked to some of the
folks out there and that isn't going to be done. Look,
how far along are we? It was Sunday? This is Friday.
No one has been hurt. No one is going to be hurt and
we're going to reunite you, reunite you and your kids
and all the other folks in there with their kids.
KATHY: Well then why are they still here?
You know? I don't understand it. We don't want to
some out there.
DICK: Uh-huh.
KATHY: We have no -- no law says we have to
come out there, so --
DICK: Well, listen. Obviously there's,
there's a problem here that's got to be straightened
out. You know, we can't walk away, that or just deny
that it didn't happen, right?
KATHY: I'm sure there's, there's, you know,
lot's of stuff that you have to do, but, myself, you
know, I have a home here --
DICK: Sure.
9
KATHY: -- and I do not want to leave my
home.
- DICK: I can understand that but we, all you
folks are going to have to be interviewed just as all
the participants from the ATF are going to have to be
interviewed, and the way to do that is just be
interviewed, get your interview done and get back with
your life, get back to your life. That's the answer to
that.
I'm not going to be - I hope you're not naive to
believe that we're just going to walk away from there.
KATHY: And I hope you're not under the --
thinking that we don't know, I mean, as close as the
people have come to our building itself, that, you
know, we don't think they're just going to stand there
and wait forever.
DICK: Well, listen. I'm going to tell you
that nobody is going to make any moves out there at
all. Okay. We went over, I don't know if they
instructed you folks, but yesterday we went over the
safety rules and - We're you made aware of those
rules? Those safety rules? we call them safety rules.
They for both of our mutual protections. Are you aware
of those?
KATHY: I, I'm not sure exactly what you're
talking about.
10
DICK: Okay, well, yesterday we discussed
some of the things that we're concerned about for
safety issues. which is, as long as no one inside
there makes any offensive moves at any of the folks
that are outside there, in return we're not going to do
anything either. I think we have to look at the
positive side of this. Since Sunday --
KATHY: What do you mean by anything though?
I mean --
DICK: In other words, we don't want anybody
carrying around weapons. We don't want anybody
standing at the windows sighting through scopes and
those kinds of things.
KATHY: But, what I'm saying is, we haven't
made any of the those types of --
DICK: No, and I appreciate that.
KATHY: But we have things on our property
making all kinds of moves which, you know, offensive
moves can be made and not even known about by the -- by
anyone else.
DICK: Okay, but again we discussed these
rules yesterday for safety, and there -- it's not going
to happen, I mean, nobody's going to be hurt. There's
not going to be any further injury and we're all
concerned about that. It's just not going to happen.
KATHY: If it doesn't happen, praise the
11
Lord, but that, I mean, I can't, I can't say what your
men out there feel, what, you know --
DICK: Well, but, I'll tell you how they're
feel, how they feel, and that is, you know, obviously
with the passage of time, people get a little impatient
and, like I was telling the fellows today, some,
sometimes, you know, somebody runs up and down the road
in a vehicle, it doesn't impact on you or us. It's,
it's not, it just isn't going to, you know, in terms of
our discussion, it isn't going to mean a thing. Nobody
is going to come in there, nobody is going to do
anything to harm you or any of the other folks in
there, your kids --
KATHY: what do you mean by in there?
DICK: I'm talking about in the compound
there.
KATHY: You mean in the building?
DICK: In all the buildings. Yes. We're,
we're not going to do that.
KATHY: But they are in some buildings and
they are on the property.
DICK: Well, now, I don't know what you're
referring to. what are you referring to? In what
buildings? You're suggesting that we have people
inside the building? The property?
KATHY: Not in the main building that we are
12
in, but there are, you do have people on our proPeItY,
yes.
DICK: Where are you talking about? You're
talking about in those, in those vehicles out there?
KATHY: Yes.
DICK: Oh, yes, we do have, certainly.
KATHY: And I'm sure they have been out of
their vehicles and in other places on our property.
DICK: I have been assured that that is not
the case. Now, have you person --
KATHY: I'm assuring you that it is.
DICK: Have you personally seen or heard
somebody?
KATHY: All right, let me tell you, let me
tell you exactly.
DICK: Okay.
KATHY: We have a white barn, dairy barn.
DICK: Okay, a white dairy barn.
KATHY: Down at the back of the property.
6
DICK: Okay. ' f
KATHY: And there is at least one, if not
more, tanks stationed at that barn.
DICK: Okay, that might be. I mean, I don't,
I'm not going to argue with you.
KATHY: Three days, three days ago the light
was on in the barn. Yesterday it was turned off. It
O O
13
has been off. That means that someone had to go in the
barn. Is that not true?
DICK: If someone went in and turned it off,
yes, and I certainly wouldn't argue that point with
you.
KATHY: That's the only way, there's the only
way of turning it off.
DICK: Okay.
KATHY: so someone has definitely gone out of
the vehicle and gone inside.
DICK: Again, I don't want to argue that
point because - _
KATHY: Okay, well that's why I'm saying --
DICK: -- it's, it's kind of a minor point,
but I'm saying that there are other ways for lights to
go out that we all know about.
KATHY: And it's not, that's not the only
thing I've seen. That's just one.
DICK: Okay. well in addition to that,
sometimes things are done that we believe to be prudent
for the safety of, of our people as well as, as you
folks, okay?
KATHY: Let me get back to the, your safety
rules. , 5
nxcx: Okay. y
KATHY: You said, if we make no offensive
14
moves then you make no offensive moves, and I'm telling
you we've not made any offensive moves --
compound
is true.
building
point, a
indicate
it on to
child orDICK: And we're not either.
KATHY: But you have.
DICK: Listen. We haven't come in the
at all, have we?
KATHY: You haven't come into the building --
DICK: Yes, we're on the property, yes. That
KATHY: If you were to try to come into the
we wouldn't let you. We don't --
DICK: we're not going to so that's not a
debatable point. We're not coming in.
KATHY: Okay, not openly you won't.
DICK: We're not, you know, I tried to
this to others but maybe they haven't passed
you. We are not going to harm any woman, any
any man in that compound. Okay?
KATHY: I myself, I don't know what
everybody's minds are. Everybody has an individual
mind.
DICK: Um-hum. "
KATHY: And I, myself, do not trust humanity
enough to say, Okay, I believe you, and, you know, I'm
safe. That's why my kids are out there.:
DICK: Okay.
l5
KATHY: I sent my kids out there not because
I don't love them --
DICK: And the children are safe. ?
KATHY: I love them very much, and I want
them here with me, not me out there - f
DICK: Okay, well I can understand that.
KATHY: But, because I don't trust humanity,
that's why they're out there.
DICK: Okay. Well they, they've been well
taken care of. They will continue to be well taken
care of.
KATHY: And I very, I very much appreciate
that. I did see the photos.
DICK: Okay.
KATHY: I don't know what happened with the
video, but -- -
DICK: Well, the video, from what I
understand in talking to, to Steve and a couple others,
that video doesn't work properly - '
KATHY: Yeah.
DICK: - and we are, we're taking steps
necessary to correct that.
KATHY: Okay. I really appreciate what
you've done.
DICK: Okay, well --
KATHY: And I thank you for taking care of
4
Brian's illness.16
DICK: Okay, but listen, you give this some
consideration. we want to reunite you and the kids,
and we're not going to do anything to keep that from
happening. It's your mind that needs to make that
decision. You have the ability to make that decision.
It's within your power to do that and you're going to
have to decide yourself how soon you want to get
together with the kids. I can't make that decision for
you. There's no one that can make that decision for
you except for yourself. And the kids will be here and
they will be well cared for and they miss you. They
want to see you and I know you feel the same way.
KATHY: Well, like you say. You're giving me
an ultimatum. I mean, the only way I can see kids
again, you know.
DICK: Well, that's not true. I didn't give
you an ultimatum. What, what are you saying? What
ultimatum?
KATHY: You said it's up to me
whether I want to see my kids again.
DICK: Well, as long as you're
a difficult, you know, how are you going
kids? You have, you have to come out to
kids. That's not an ultimatum, I'm just
what, what the fact is.to decide
in
to
bethere, it's
see your
with the
telling you
I I
17
KATHY: That's, that's what I'm saying.
DICK: And it may be a temporary thing. You
know, we're not suggesting --
KATHY: It may, it may not be either, okay,
I'm not naive. It may also be just, any way, I don't
want to get into that. I
DICK: Well. I'll be happy to answer your
question. You're not --
KATHY: I don't have a question.
DICK: Okay.
KATHY: I just, I want to thank you for
taking care of Brian and getting him to the doctor
because --
DICK: Well you kick this around in your own
mind in there and think about it and I'll be happy to
talk to you once again, but you folks discuss this
amongst yourself and hopefully you'll come to the
realization that we're here to just ensure that no one
is hurt and that we will get this resolved, you will be
back with your kids and you'll be reunited as a family.
How -- what can I do to convince you that that's
accurate? I mean, you don't seem to want to believe
what I'm telling you?
KATHY: It would be real simple, just --
DICK: Okay.
KATHY: But it's not going to happen that
18
way.
DICK: Well, what, what simple answer do you
have for us? I mean, I'm happy to listen to it.
KATHY: I mean, the original reason that
people came here --
DICK: Um-hum.
KATHY: -- was --
DICK: You know, that, that event of Sunday
has unfortunately happened and we have to go on from
here to try to rectify that, ensure that it doesn't
happen again, to ensure that no one else is hurt, to
ensure that you're, that ultimately you're reunited
with your family. It will happen, okay?
KATHY: On my, on my property, --
DICK: On your property.
KATHY: -- on my home.
DICK: I'm, we're talking about a temporary,
a temporary situation for a good number of people
there.
KATHY: That's what you are saying right now
to me on the phone.
DICK: Okay. Well talk to your lawyer.
He'll tell you the same thing. Don't you have a lawyer
in there? Isn't Wayne, isn't Wayne in a position to
advise you to some degree about the possibilities that
might exist after you leave there? I mean certainly he
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' 19
must be providing some information to you about legal
issues.
KATHY: Well --
DICK: And I'm sure he's not telling you that
all of you are going to be sent to jail.
KATHY: No, he wouldn't say that, but --
DICK: But you believe it? Is that what you
believe? Is that your -- the problem that you're
having?
KATHY: I have had experience and seen what
has happened to people in the past in similar
circumstances.
DICK: What: your experience that you're
referring to? i
KATHY: I am referring to what --
DICK: I'm not trying to be argumentative.
KATHY: Well, basically it's what -- it's
hard to explain. What everyone around the country now
is now seeing is that the people that we have in
authority, in government in this country, are not
honest. They're not coming through with their
promises, they're not protecting, they're --
DICK: Kathy, that's certainly not all people
KATHY: No. A g
DICK: -- in all government positions --
20
KATHY: No, --
DICK: -- just as --
KATHY: But it's enough to make a difference
in my life. . V
DICK: Well.
KATHY: See? So, I mean, you may be totally
honest. You may have every desire in your heart to do
what you say.
DICK: Umhum.
KATHY: But I cannot, you know, take your
word and say that that's what they're going to do and,
I mean, whoever else is in authority, if I were to come
out as you say.
DICK: Well, I'm talking about the whole
group of you. I'm not talking about you as an
individual necessarily, but I'm talking about -- All
of you will have to make up your mind individually or
collectively and, and you're going to have to deal with
some of these issues. To try to deny these issues, and
try to just go on without confronting the issues, it's
just, you know, it's just a delaying tactic, and it has
to happen.
KATHY: Well, we are all individuals here --
DICK: Sure.
KATHY: -- and I am dealing with it in my own
mind, so --. Z
21
DICK: Well, then you're going to have to
make, you know, ask yourself those questions, and if
you can answer them -- I know that, as a parent, you're
concerned about your children and I appreciate that and
the children are concerned about you and I hope that
you get together with your children. I really do.
KATHY: Just, just do me a favor and pass on
the message that I'm -- take, tell them to take care of
Brian.
DICK: All right.
KATHY: And I love them.
DICK: All right. We'll be in touch, then,
Kathy. I hope that, I hope that this is - this works
out for you. I know that it will. Unfortunately you
just, in your own mind, just don't think that will
work, but I'm telling you, it's going to work fine.
It's going to work out for you. And it's, it's not
going to be easy for you but it will work out for you.
KATHY: Is there any possibility that you can
set up a way that I can talk to the children?
DICK: Well, that will be nearly impossible
and, you know, we're trying to do what we can for you
and that: why we got the pictures for you and the
video, and I apologize --
KATHY: Well, if you can work it out.
DICK: We're going to do what we can for you.
22
KATHY: Okay, 'cause --
DICK: who else, who else is --
KATHY: when I talked to Jake earlier, I
didn't get to say much of anything to him, so --.
DICK: Okay. Well, the kids will be fine,
but they need you. who else is there that I might
speak to?
KATHY: Okay, here's Sita.
DICK: Thank you.
SITA: Hello.
DICK: Sita?
SITA: Sorry, the phone --
DICK: Yeah, we got, we got cut off a little
bit earlier. What did you think of the photo's?
SITA: They're beautiful.
DICK: Good. Good. The kids seem to be
doing well.
SITA: I hope so, because --
DICK: They're together with the other kids,
and they all seem to be adjusting to one another well,
and of course all of them miss you and the other
parents out there.
SITA: Did you guys call where, what I
requested? Whose parents to go with?
DICK: No. That has not been done. It's
being worked on, and I indicated to Steve earlier, and
23
I'll indicate it to you and perhaps you can pass it on
to others that I might not get an opportunity to talk
to, but, it's, the kids are together and there's,
efforts are being made to place them, or will be in the
future. We hope that you'll be out of there and the
kids will be with you, but we're just not in a position
to take the kids out at this point and they have to be,
you know, their health has to be assured and there are,
you know, some formalities that have to be handled and
this is not something that can be done overnight. It's
much, you know, if I can draw an analogy here, it's
like giving birth to a child. It's not done over
night. We can't resolve these issues overnight. The
child welfare agencies cannot do it either overnight,
but you have a number of people working on it and
trying to do the best they can to ensure that the kids
are taken care of properly, that their health is good,
they're receiving good care, the food and they're
getting rest and they're playing with one another and
they're being cared for properly, and --
SITA: well --
DICK: We're not parents, I mean, we're not
their parents, but we're doing the best we can.
SITA: when I talked to Jim, --
DICR: Okay.
SITA: He said he'd make sure what we wrote
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24
in the letter, Tasheem Phonetic! wrote that they go to
their grandparents.
DICK: Uh-huh.
SITA: He gave the phone numbers.
nxcx: Okay.
SITA: The name, and addresses, and --
DICK: Well, see, that will be done, but
again, it can't be done overnight. The, the child care
services are aware of that. You know, the letters that
went with the kids remained with the kids and those
things are being worked on, but it's like, you know,
we've been here since Sunday, and you know how, you
know how long it's taken to try to work some of these
problems out, and, you know, this can't be done
overnight. People, people that work in these areas,
why you may quarrel with some of their own, their
procedures, they have the best interest of the kid at
heart. Now, you may not agree with what, what that
might be --
SITA: I agree what you're saying, but it
wouldn't have happened if you guys didn't come in just
attacking us. i
DICK: Well, listen, that is horribly
unfortunate. It's also horribly unfortunate that law
enforcement officers were injured. We're all trying to
get past that and we're, that's, that's something that
25
happened and now we are going to have to go forward and
try to resolve that. You're going to have the
opportunity, as soon as you come out, you and the
others, to testify to what happened here, to, to give a
message --
SITA: Testify?
DICK: well, I'm talking about to give, give
information to, to newspapers, to television stations,
to Congress --.
SITA: Then can you guys open, open news
casts for us to talk to them?
DICK: Certainly. when you, when you come
out of there you're going to have the opportunity to do
that. Sure. The press is very interested in hearing
your side of the incident. Absolutely. They're going
to be very interested in hearing that.
I was telling some of the folks I talked to
earlier that, this morning in the Waco paper, there was
an article concerning Congressional inquiry into this
whole matter. It's being scrutinized. This has never
happened in law enforcement before. 6
SITA: Hell, it's never happened to me
before.
DICK: No, and, and it will never happen
again. But that's, that's what you need to tell people
about. You have to make your knowledge known, I mean,
26
there are only bits and pieces of what happened that
will only be known to you, okay? If you, if you were
inside there and you saw certain -- made certain
observations, there are going to be people that are,
are interested in talking with you, and you'll be able
to give your side of the story, and we'll make that
available to anyone that has an interest in it;
congress, the press, the courts, the directors of the
ATF, the directors of the FBI, all those folks have an
ongoing interest in this.
We all have a, you know, we all have concerns
about what happened the other day. I've been in law
enforcement for a long, long time, as have many of the
other fellows that are involved here and we all want to
know what happened too. You know, we just don't
arbitrarily watch something like this happen without
responding in our, in our own fashion.
You know, the best thing, and we've talked about
it to some degree, is that you get your, you know, you
get your case in front of the public. You know, you
guys, all you guys inside can tell the public what
happened from your perspective. would you disagree
with that?
SITA: But you guys have the power --
DICK: We don't, Sita, Sita, I don't have
any power, okay? Public opinion is, is the court where
27
this thing will be resolved. Public opinion is what
counts. I don't have anymore power than you do. I go
to work, I go home with my family the same way as you
do. I don't have any power.
SITA: That's one thing, you're lucky.
DICK: Well, you can do the same thing, Sita.
You have to make that decision yourself. I can't make
it for you.
SITA: No, when they came in, they made the
decision when they start firing.
DICK: Sita, that's your belief and please,
tell that to the world. It doesn't do you any good to
stay inside that complex and tell those things to me.
You have to tell it to the people that are in a
position with, quote, power, that you talk about. I
don't have that power.
SITA: Then why don't you let me, open just
one line for me to call who I want to talk to.
DICK: Sita you have a line of communication,
and that's me, okay?
SITA: Yes. You're the only line of
communication for me --
DICK: David has, David had, David had the
ability and the opportunity to present an hours worth
of, of his concerns, which we made available for him.
SITA: Wait a minute. I beg your pardon?
' 28
DICK: I'm saying back, you know, days ago,
David had the opportunity and we were able to get
something on television for him, I mean, I'm sorry, on
the radio, tor him. And he was able to make some
comments and that same, that same opportunity will be
made available to you, worldwide. You know, people
from London and the press, if you see any of the
television accounts, there are news reporters from all
over the world here, and there are people in there from
all over the world and those people can take that word
out to their respective countries, the press in their
countries, the court - This is something that is
going to be examined over and over again. But you have
to make it known. I mean, ATF is going to present
their side. You've got to present yours. You've got
to do that.
SITA: I'm not a good English orator like you
9 YB-
DICK: Sita, it doesn't matter. That doesn't
matter.
SITA: I'm a simple person who just living
her life, that's been, like, taken away.
DICK: Sita, nothing has been taken away.
Nothing has been taken away. You will have every
opportunity to make any thoughts that you have
regarding this incident known.~ But you have your, the
O p I
29
responsibility and you have to take that responsibility
to make that, those thoughts known. And there are just
all kinds of people that will listen. FBI agents will
be interviewing you when you come out of there. They
will be, your comments will be passed on. Newspaper
people will be interested in interviewing you.
Congressional people will be interested in interviewing
people.
SITA: I don't care about them.
DICK: Well if you don't care about it --
SITA: I, it's just --
DICK: So, you're saying you're angry, but
you don't care enough to make your thoughts known to
others? Is that what you're telling me?
SITA: No, I'm not angry. It's something --
DICK: Sita, the most powerful thing that you
can have is the court of public opinion. Okay? That's
the power that you folks in there have. You all feel
that what happened was ATF's fault. Is that accurate?
SITA: As far as I know - I, for me, when I
opened the curtains they get out of their, their
vehicles and start shooting.
DICK: Okay, then people need to know that.
If, if that was done --
SITA: Then you tell the newscaster what I
said.
I O
30
DICK: I want you to tell them. You think
the newspaper people are interested in interviewing an
FBI agent about what happened out here? I wasn't
there. They have to have the accounts from people that
were there. My account means nothing. I wasn't there.
I wasn't a witness, so why would anybody want to talk
to me?
SITA: Because you're tied in, you're help,
let's say, you're helping trying to get this thing over
with.
DICK: Absolutely. We would like to get this
over with safely so that no one else is hurt.
SITA: safely.
DICK: Absolutely.
SITA: Then you tell them what I'm telling
you.
DICK: Sita, people don't want to hear it in
that fashion. That's second-hand information. It
means little. The best information comes from people
that were there.
SITA: Well that's all they going -- for now.
DICK: well, again -- 5
SITA: Why can't you talk to the news? What
we've been, I've been saying and some others that I --
DICK: Sita, there is no interest in what I
have to say. I'm an FBI agent that has a job to do and
O O
i _ 31
no one's interested in what I have to say. They're
interested in what Sita has to say. They're interested
in what David has to say. They're interested in what
Rachel has to say. They're interested in what Kathy
has to say, Steven has to say, David has to say, not
what Dick has to say. What Dick has to say has
absolutely no bearing on this incident that took place
Sunday. It's your responsibility. It's your right and
you have to do what's right, and what's right is for
you to come out and you go to those people and you say
listen, this is what happened, I don't care what others
say, this is what happened. You and all of your
associates, your friends, your family in there, you all
have to do that. You owe it to yourselves, you owe it
to the children, you owe it to any other citizens in
this country that might be placed in a similar
position. I
SITA: Well you said I owe it.'
DICK: You, as an individual. You owe it to
your children and you owe it to yourself. It's the
right thing to do. It's the only thing to do. Please,
think about that, will you? Your kids miss you, they
need you and they want to be reunited with you.
SITA: I miss all of them too.
DICK: Okay. who else is there that I might
talk to?
32
SITA: Just a minute. Excuse me, do you have
Peter Gent Phonetic!?
DICK: I'm sorry?
SITA: In custody?
DICK: Peter Gent? -
SITA: Yeah. I ? X
DICK: I don't know a Peter Gent.
SITA: To background! He said he doesn't
know him.
Background voice! -- he doesn't need to
know him, --
DICK: You're talking --
SITA: Just a minute. He just woke up.
DICK: who David? That's David you're
talking to?
SITA: Yeah. To background! You want to
talk to him? Okay, just a minute.
V DICK: Okay, David's going to get on the
line?
SITA: Nice talking to you, and thank you.
DAVID: Hello.
DICK: David?
DAVID: Yes.
DICK: Get a little rest?
DAVID: I'm trying.
DICK: Did you get that medical, those
Y
O O
' 33
medical supplies we sent into you?
DAVID: I'm not sure yet, I just, I just, --
DICK: Oh, they're there. My understanding
is they're there and they just were waiting for you to
wake up to, to try to give you some, some relief there
or to assist you. I
DAVID: Okay. I just want you to know, I
need to know, I've got to know at this point whether
you all have, in your custody, a Peter Gent.
DICK: Why is that of a
DAVID: Well because we
earlier that we can't, we haven't
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: So we've, we've
the place here, you know, lookingparticular interest?
haven't, I was told
accounted for him.
been looking all over
out the windows and
stuff, and he's somebody we haven't accounted for.
Now --
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: In some of your reports, you were
talking about these three guys earlier and we, we think
we know who the three guys are. I don't know why they
would be coming here, but that would be Mike Schroeder
DICK: Hike Schroeder, okay.
DAVID: Possibly Bob Xendrik and a person
that I knew by the name Bro, which is a black man. So,
34
we know that you all talked about three of those
persons. We know that no, no three persons went out of
here acting like Rambo, you know, and got --
DICK: They did go out of there? Oh, you
said they didn't, okay. ' .
DAVID: Oh, no, no, no, I'm saying we know
they didn't.
DICK: Okay. Now, is that Delroy Nash?
DAVID: Delroy, anybody know Delroy Nash?
That's his name? Delroy?
DICK: Yeah, that's Bro. That may be Bro.
DAVID: Oh, hey, Neil, --
DICK: Can you confirm that?
DAVID: What is, what is Bro's name, real
name? Nash? I never knew that. That's him then,
Delroy. '
DICK: Okay, Delroy is in custody.
DAVID: I know him, I knew him by the name of
Bro.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: That's the name that, that, I think,
'cause he never did talk very plain and, you know, he
talked kind of -- He was from England but he talked
real, he didn't talk much, but he would talk real, if I
couldn't understand some times, I'd tell him, I just
said, all right, I'm going to call you Bro.
35
DICK: Yeah, it's difficult to understand
Englishmen at times. That, my understanding is that is
accurate, that is Delroy Nash and he is in custody.
DAVID: Okay. Well then so those, we've
accounted for those. A
DICK: Okay. .
l DAVID: There's Don Bonds, we've accounted
for him.
DICK: Don Bonds?
DAVID: Don Bonds.
DICK: Okay, how do you account for him, I
mean, what is his status?
DAVID: Well we, we already heard that there
was a 62 year old man picked up in town and we know
that could be, that's Don Bonds.
DICK: Okay, now, I'm not aware of that at
all. That might be, that might be accurate, but I,
it: not known to me.
DAVID: Oh, I see. Okay. Well, I'm, I'm
pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that's him, Don Bonds.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: Because we know you got him. So
let's say, it's Bob Kendrik --
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: 'Cause, you know, these three,
actually two guys, Bro was just, Bro was just, you
I
92
36
know, he was traveling around the United States and he,
he had just been out to California or something, when
he came back, you know, you know, I told him, I said,
well, you know, until he could make arrangements doing
things, you know, he could probably stay down at the
shop for a while or something like that, but --
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: But I know those three guys were
together. '
DICK: Okay, well, maybe that's the three
that --
DAVID: But there's, but there's, but Peter
Gent, no one has been able to account for him since, I
know this, but since Sunday.
DICK: Peter Gent, does, has he been living
at the compound?
DAVID: Right. -
DICK: Okay, and you haven't, no one's seen
him since Sunday?
DAVID: Right, well, see, there's a lot of
people I haven't seen yet, but --
nxcx: Okay.
DAVID: But, you know, they're, you know,
I've been asking, you know, everybody knows, everybody
knows more than I do when it comes to, you know, the
personages, and, and they were telling me that, you
know, they thought that he was possibly, you know,37
watching a certain area and come to find out, when I,
when I, when I requested that, you know, let's really
get a, get a head count and a check and find out, you
know, where everybody's at.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: He's not been uncovered.
DICK: Okay, now, I was --
DAVID: And so, what I, what I, we've been
trying to look from different degrees around from the
windows and stuff like that.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: And --
DICK: Well, Don, my understanding is Don
was, in fact, stopped on Sunday and released.
oavm: Right.
DICK: So that's, that accounts for him.
DAVID: Okay.
DICK: You know, I'm glad you mentioned that,
you know, the windows and stuff, I think you indicated
earlier that, please, make sure that your folks there
are very careful, that they don't, you know, that
they're not poking weapons out of windows.
DAVID: Oh, we under, we understand that.
DICK: Okay, I just, I just want to reiterate
that with you. I just want to --
38
DAVID: But, it's just like I was telling Jim
the other night and whereas people are using their, you
know, sniper scopes on us, you know, at the same time,
you know, this has to be a fair deal in every degree-
If someone, if someone has the, you know, the legal
right, instinctive right to be zeroing down on an
object, you know, with the, with the high power rifle
and a scope, that same right is also administered to
us. I mean, this is, this is not -- Our rights were
violated. You, our government has stepped in and
beyond, taking a religious peoples accusations, which
is just like what happened, you know, not just like,
but 2000 years ago the sanhedrim and Pharisees could
not get around the doctrines so they, they made up a
lot of things, okay?
DICK: Okay, so in this instance you're
saying --
DAVID: What I'm saying, what I'm saying is,
is that when the United States of America steps on the
door front of a people, see, what I should have done
right now, and I realize it now, I tried to, well,
hindsight, like I said is always 20-20.
DICK: Um-hum. 4
DAVID: I should have, I should have went
ahead and I should have taken Robert Gonzalez and I
should have, I should have, this morning I should have
39
said, now, you're going to sit right here Robert, and
you're not going to leave this place, you know, until
you tell me point blank -- See, we didn't get a phone
call this morning. That was, there was not a phone
call. When, when --
DICK: You mean Sunday morning.
DAVID: Sunday morning.
DICK: All right.
DAVID: when they, when they, when they said
there was a phone call, they wanted to ask me
something.
DICK: Okay. Who was it that called?
DAVID: Nobody called.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: That's the whole deal.
DICK: Well, who wanted to ask you something
then?
DAVID: Well, Perry and Dave and another
individual wanted to ask me something regards to the
morning worship. And so I wasn't going -- instead of,
instead of, instead of coming in and saying, you know,
interrupting a conversation I was having with Robert,
they, you know, they needed to know because there was
some things we had to get ready, so they said, well,
you know, there's, there's a call, can you come to the
call? Okay, well, yeah, I went to the call and, yeah,
40
well, Steve was still talking to him, and that's where
Robert, that's where Robert tried to tell you
individuals we were tipped off by a call. But listen
to this, I was already explaining to Robert at that
point that, you know, we, we have always known who they
were the very first day that they moved in. I mean,
we, we went across the street, we sent some guys over
there to, you know, to talk with them, to, to, you
know, to get to know them and stuff like that, because,
like I've always said, I've always, I've invited the
sheriff's department to come in here. Anytime they
wanted to come fishing and stuff, come visiting --.
what's that, what's that lieutenant, Barber, no, --
STEVE: Abner, Larry --
DAVID: Larry Abner.
STEVE: There was another Spanish name.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: Johnny
Leondo phonetic!.
DAVID: Yeah, Johnny Leondo. E
DICK: Okay, now -- 5 ;
DAVID: Two, two very tine individuals in the
sheriff's department that we talked with the last time,
and I have all -- look, I understand a lot of things
that I may do in religion may not be in the sight of a
lot of people, a hundred percent acceptable in this
society.
92
41
DICK: But you're a gentleman --
DAVID: But there's one thing, there's one
thing that, that I have always been and that is I've
always been honest and open to anybody who will sit
down and look at me in the light of what I perceive in
the book called the Bible.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: You see, now, this is where we were
working with Robert at. I had already given him
several Bible studies in which I'm sure, in all
consciousness, he will, because like, he was deeply
convicted over what I was showing him.
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Deeply convicted. I had already,
this would have been -- I already told him that he
could stay here and take one of the rooms
for two weeks.
DICK: Umhum.
DAVID: And I said, now Robert,
something you have to understand. A lot
that observe me, you know, and are trying
me, are always trying to figure out wherewith the guys
there's
of people
to look at
I'm coming
tron. But I promise that everything about me and every
question you may have in regards to me, you will find
out and you will know. That's one thing I have never
done with my students, is that it you sit down and give
I Iin . 42
yourself the time, you will find out everything there
is to know about me. Okay? And when he came over with
the AR-15's, when he said that, you know, he had some
AR-15's?
DICK: Um-hum.
DAVID: Oh, wait a minute, oh,fokay.
DICK: What's the matter? You feeling --
DAVID: No --
DICK: Pain?
DAVID: when I had, I had to stretch and it's
just a sharp pain.
DICK: You know what you need to do? You
need to get yourself walking a little bit and stretch
yourself out or you're going to have, your muscles are
going to atrophy.
DAVID: well, I, I, yeah.
DICK: You know what I mean? 1
DAVID: I need to get myself walking, Steve.
DICK: Well, if you're that bad off, then use
that stuff we sent into you. Get yourself some medical
care.
DAVID: Here's, here's the deal now. So,
when, when Robert was told that he couldn't shoot his
pistol across the street, 'cause he was, you know,
shooting his pistol --
DICK: Un-hum.
43
DAVID: The next door neighbor confront him
and says, no, we don't need to do that. I went ahead
and I told Hark, which is our next door neighbor to go
ahead and tell him to come over here. We have a mound
in the back, you know, where we shoot at sometimes --
DICK: Um-hum. . f
DAVID: -- and, like a little target range.
DICK: Okay. ' -
DAVID: For a small caliber handgun, and I
said he's more than welcome to come over here, and so,
he took up the invitation and he came over and he
brought this Eagle series, you know, .38, actually .45,
you know, .38 upper on a basically a .45 lower, you
know, revolver, around the Colt model, Colt .45 series,
but, you know, a special one. It had a special fly on
it, it was all, been tapered, it had a special
compensator and everything. Anyway, you know, the
guys, the guys telling me, with his 8 point scope and
all that, that he doesn't really know that much about
guns, and, and the very first thing he does is he
brings over this weapon that's, you know, no novice
has, and no novice knows to put those pieces together
like that, and I checked the slide ratio and I checked
the, the trigger pull and everything, and the gun's
maxed out, and, you know, --
DICK: Meaning it's been modified?
I
44
DAVID: Yeah. What I'm saying is, is that as
far as, you know, we already knew, I already knew that
he was in law enforcement. See, I mean, okay, for
instance, the first day they come over, okay?
DICK: Um-hum. 5 }
DAVID: The first day they come over, here's
all of these guys and their excuse for moving into this
little bitty house is that they're students, college
students. Now, come on. Every little one of them was
at least in their mids to later 30s, okay?
DICK: A little old for college.
DAVID: Well, the mystery of it is is that
another stupid thing was that I already, I had already
been, well, this sounds funny. See, when a prophet has
a vision, what happens is, is that God communicates to
the prophet and shows the prophet pictures and images
which allows the prophet to perceive and on some degree
what the next steps or what's happening in regards to
the will of God. okay? Like when Christ talks about
the armies gathered around Jerusalem and things like
that, you know, this is the vision area, this is where
heaven uses means and ways of communicating unto
mankind in regards to the events that they foresee.
DICK: So you, you've foreseen, you foresaw
that that was a police officer?
DAVID: Well, I've been, I've been teaching
about this ever since 1985, regards to, to this would
eventually happen one day. Okay, but the thing of it
is is that --
end of tape I55.!
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