Waco FBI Transcripts Tapes 175 - 177 Part 52

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #175
3/27/93
10:47 P.M.  11:34 P.M.

 Tape 115!
STEVE: I don't know. I have no idea.
LINDA: Who's taking care of, doing for him?
STEVE: Well, it's been one of the nurses
that we have. One --
LINDA: One of the nurses?
STEVE: Yeah. And, but the truth is, I don
know that, I don't think it's her expertise.
LINDA
STEVE
LINDA
STEVEI mean, is she an RN?
Yeah, she's an R--
A registered nurse?
Yeah, she's an RN, but still, you
know, there's some that are familiar with emergency
situations, bullet wounds from being in certain types
of hospitals. This one, her, she, her area's been
more, I think, working with bedside patients and so
forth.
LINDA
STEVE
LINDA
STEVE
LINDA:
STEVEWho's a registered nurse?
Zilla, it's Zilla Henry.
Zilla Henry?
Yeah, you have her name already.
Okay.
We gave a, we had a video done and
that was the family of Henrys. There was about, I
think there's six of them altogether, five, six,
something like that.2
t

LINDA
STEVE
days anyway.
LINDA
one's spoken to
' STEVE
LINDA
STEVE
legally changedE 3
Have you talked to her recently?
Not about his wound. Not for a few
Okay. I'm, I just understand that no
Vernon since Tuesday.
He goes by -- if you don't mind -
That's been four nights.
He goes by the name David Koresh. He
it and even though his mother gave him
the name Vernon, he goes, his legal name is David
Koresh.
LINDA: Okay. Well, I understand no one's
spoken to him since Tuesday night. I mean is he, you
know, is he --
STEVE
LINDA
us.
STEVE
LINDA
to him.
STEVE
Henry, yeah, it
dead.
LINDA:
for four nights
STEVEIs he, is he dead?
It seems like he's trying to avoid
No, one of the guys --
We have a message that we need to get
One of the guys today, I guess it was
was Henry that was asking me if he was
Right. I mean nobodys talked to him
That almost reminded me of like back

4
in, what was it, '69, '70 when everybody believed Paul
McCartney was dead because of the album cover and this
and that.
LINDA: So that's a no?
STEVE: Yeah, you know he's living. He's,
he's alive. He's laying -- I talked to him about -- oh
LINDA: But that he, you can see from my
point of view it looks like he's trying to avoid us or
he's, he's not taking responsibility or --
STEVE: Maybe he --
LINDA: He's not beating?
STEVE: No, he hasn't said anything about
that, but, you know, I, I'm not always -- I'm going to
try to be honest with you.
LINDA: Okay.
STEVE: You say, is he trying to avoid you.
I don't, I don't really know. I don't think so. I
really don't. I mean, he hasn't said anything to give
me a, any kind of a, an idea that he is. But he, he --
I asked him, when I talked to him for just a few
moments earlier, I mentioned that, I think it was --
all right, it was Henry that wanted to speak with him
and he says, Steve, not right now. He says between the
headache, between the way I'm feeling, he says talk to
me tomorrow. That's what he said to me, he says talk

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to me tomorrow. I think he's hoping that, like he did,
you know, a few nights ago, to kind of recover, to feel
well enough to sit up and, and maybe to feel better. I
don't, I don't know. But it seems like it's been kind
of like a roller coaster experience. He's up, he's
down.
LINDA: But hasn't that been the message
we've gotten for the last four days?
STEVE: Pardon? 
LINDA: I'd be real concerned. We've gotten
that same message, that he's not feeling well, he has a
headache, he went to sleep, he went to bed.
STEVE: Yeah, I know, well, that's true. It
actually kind of started about the time Byron talked to
him, when he - what he did, I wasn't at a phone,
that's quite a distance --
LINDA: But it seems like he's avoiding us.
You can understand where we're coming from.
STEVE: Yeah, but he's not. Yeah, but he's
not. You know, he's not, because he's always loved it
as -- such a new person like yourself, he loves to get
on the phone. You should know that already by the
different recordings you have of when he's talked to
different agents. He likes to get on the phone, he
likes to dialogue about the Book, the thing he believes
in and share with you or listen or whatever. I mean,

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he really does. _
LINDA: Well, it just seems like he would be
improved, you know, from that time to this time to at
least talk to us.
STEVE: Well, he was -- he thought - I think
that's what -- well, he thought so, too. There's no
question he thought so, because that day he came down
to talk with Byron and he kept on saying he had to use
the facilities, then he -- when he walked away finally,
he pointed at the wound, he pulled up his sh-- and, in
fact, he didn't even need to pull up his shirt but it
was bleeding. And I, I thought whoa, I mean, it wasn't
looking good then at all. So he made his way back to
the bed, and he stayed there for some time, even though
he's, he did talk in a few days to John Cox and since
that time then, he talked to John Cox again Wednes--
what is, tonight's Saturday, he talked to him Wednesday
night.
LINDA: That's right.
STEVE: And when, he went and laid back down
again and he's not felt too good since.
LINDA: Well, I, I got a message from John
that he, the last time we talked to him --
STEVE: Uh-huh.
LINDA: The last time John talked to him --
STEVE : Yeah .92
92
92
92
92

LINDA:
nights ago.
STEVE:
LINDA:
STEVE:
Wednesday
LINDA:
STEVE :
that Johnif I'm,7
-~ was Tuesday night. That's four
Could be, because ~-
And we do have a message for him.
I thought this Louis came in on
I'm almost positive it was Wednesday.
Louis?
Louis who came in, that's the night
talked to him, was the night that Louis --
what is his name, Alanese  phonetic sp.!?
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:No, that was Tuesday.
Was it Tuesday?
Tuesday, yes.
I'm losing track of time, Linda.
Yeah, I'm ~ so that's been four, you
know, four whole days since -~
STEVE: The sun goes up and down, those
bright lights on the outside, I mean, I never know what
time it is anymore, living in a building.
LINDA: And I think today they gave you the
message that we do have a message to give to him. Have
you talked to him about that?
STEVE:
LINDA:
STEVE:
fact, andTo David. To David.
Right.
I, I tried. I did tell him that, in
he said to me, not right now. And he said he

wanted to sleep, soAI said, no problem.8
LINDA: Well, it just seems a little funny to
us, you, you -- you know, he can't accept one message.
He, he won't come to the phone, he won't talk to
anybody.
STEVE: But --
LINDA: It just doesn't look good.
STEVE: It's not really funny. He, he's
always been like that. I mean, when I first met the
guy, he had more to say about religion than any person
I've ever met in my life. I mean, some substantial
thing -- substantive things. And when I heard what he
had to say, I said I'd like to take you, fly you at my
expense to meet some friends and acquaintances of mine.
And he said to me -- now get this. Now, this was weird
to me. He said to me, Steve, I never do anything, I
don't go anywhere without God directing me or telling
me. And I looked at him like, "Huh? Say what?" And I
mean, I'm not used to that kind of thing. I'm not into
that kind of phenomena. And after that I got to know
him better. I mean, it's always been like that with
him. He doesn't make a move without being directed.
And, and that sounds weird, I know, because there's a
lot of people that say a lot of things like that, and
I, I don't buy it unless people have -- like with him,
he was, had the ability to show something from the Book

.-
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and people say well, that's your interpretation. Ab,
he doesn't, he'll say you read the chapter. What do
you see? Now read this chapter, what do you see.
Well, you quickly develop a picture, and you see how it
connects. He's always done that, so see, I mean,
that's his way. That's his way. He'll say that
God'll tell him to trust or to wait. The word "wait"
is a frequent word, by the way. It's not like it's
unique to this situation.
LINDA: But to us it just looks like he's not
being a leader at all, that --
STEVE: No, but --
LINDA: -- instead of telling you what to do
or --
STEVE: You could even talk to his
adversaries --
LINDA: He's sleeping.
STEVE: You could talk to his enemies like
Marc Breault, and he would even tell you that when he,
he was with them for 3-1/2 years, and in that time, how
many times he would wait on an answer from God, and God
would just say wait. Seriously. Even --
LINDA: In the meantime, what about the
children that are there?
STEVE: They're okay, Linda, honestly.
LINDA: I can't believe that those children
Q

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are living in that kind of condition that they're okay.
They haven't been able to come out in the sunshine.
STEVE: Well, they seem to be doing okay.
LINDA: They seem to be doing okay?
STEVE: Well, yeah. I'm going to film them
tomorrow morning, and you can check them out. I'll
film them for a good while, as long as the battery
lasts if I can. I'll film them for quite a while.
LINDA: Are you going to send that to us
tomorrow?
STEVE: Sure, as soon as I'm done.
LINDA: When are you going to talk to David
and, and tell him we have a message for him?
STEVE: It's hard to say, because you know,
he, he's ~- I never know when I can get to him because
it depends upon if he's sleeping, if he's tired, if
he's meditating. He is, he's been a person that a lot
of times --
LINDA: He's just not available.
STEVE: Well, yeah, he's -- a lot of, through
the years he's spent a lot of time on his own in a room
in the quiet. He really has. He's, it's the way he
is. But when he comes out he'll talk to any and
everybody, he'll go anywhere in the world. His life
has been threatened for years and years, it's not
anything new. It --

LINDA: It just seems like, I'm sorry, ifll
he's a leader, that he would be available to you. I
mean --
STEVE: These, these are odd circumstances
though, Linda. I mean, the wound and all. It really
is. Very odd circumstances. And if his God told him
to wait. Like even with myself, I've tried to talk him
out of certain things in the past. And --
LINDA: Would you be afraid to just go to his
room now and ask him to come to the phone?
STEVE: Well, yeah, what would you -- you
know, even if you had a good friend, they weren't
feeling good, and they said hey, Linda, I'm gonna turn
in now, I'm not feeling good, do you think they'd want
LINDA: Quite frankly, under a situation like
this, it's important enough. It's important enough.
. STEVE: But to hear him, he's gonna say he
can't --
LINDA: He's been sleeping all day.
STEVE: But he really hasn't been. Cause I
went in there --
LINDA: Well, he hasn't come to the phone to
talk to us if he hasn't been sleeping.
STEVE: No, I know that. But he hasn't felt
well. He says he can't, in the condition that he's in

.> 
right now, he had a hard time talking with me. Have1'2
you ever had a bad headache or you've not felt well and
you just say, kind of leave me be?
LINDA: Not that I couldn't get a five-second
message.
STEVE: Well, I guess that's his choice.
LINDA: He couldn't be that ill.
STEVE: I don't know what to say, Linda,
because what are you gonna do? It's his choice.
LINDA: Well, but, but I'm saying. He's
avoiding us.
STEVE: I don't believe --
LINDA: Be honest and say that instead of
saying he's not feeling well.
STEVE: I don't believe he is. I really
don't believe -- If he is --
LINDA: Because if he was not really feeling
well, you would do something about --
STEVE: I don't think so.
LINDA: -- getting him better. I mean, just
go, I mean, you know, be honest and say, he, he doesn't
want to come to the phone.
STEVE: I don't think that's it, because I
talked to him about tomorrow.
LINDA: well, I'll have to say that he's not
much of a leader.

STEVE:
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:
come to the phone,
days while you've13
Well, you can say that.
Okay, I say that.
All right.
That's my opinion. That he can't
he's been sleeping for the last four
been on the phone with us, you've
been trying to, you know, talk to us.
STEVE :
LINDA:
STEVE:Um-hum.
And, you know, he's got --
All right. Linda, how long have you
been with the FBI?
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:
point right now.
STEVE:
not really, but --
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:
to David, that we
out --
STEVE:
LINDA:A number of years.
Not too long, huh?
Right, but that's really not the
No, no, I know, I know it. No, it's
You know.
No, it's not, it's no big deal.
Right.
I just was asking.
What's important, that we get to talk
get you out, the rest of the people
Are you -- so you're --
 and the two men that came in the

last few days out
STEVE :
from this state?
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:
really.
STEVE:
curious.
LINDA:
STEVE :
LINDA:
STEVE:
LINDA:
STEVE:14
You are from Texas, Linda? You are
Beg your pardon?
Are you from Dallas -~
Yeah.
-- or from this -- you are.
I'm from Texas, yes.
Oh, yeah.
But that's not important is it,
I don't know, I mean, I, I just was
Okay.
I just wondered. No problem.
So are you gonna go and --
Well, what I'm gonna do --
-- knock on David, knock on the door?
No, I'm going to bed, cause I'm
totally worn out myself, and I definitely am interested
in talking with whoever's going to be on the line
tomorrow. I'll get back with and talk to you for sure.
Just a minute, someone's here to talk to me. Just one
minute.
LINDA: Hang up? Okay. Somebody's there -~
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STEVE: Hello, Dick?
JOHN~S: No, this is John O'Neil.
STEVE: John O'Neil.
JOHN- 5: Right. I
STEVE: I was just talking with Linda.
Somehow or other it must have clicked the line off. Is
she still there?
JOHN-5: No, is this Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-5: No, she moved on. She had something
else she had to do right now.
STEVE: What?
JOHN-S: These are indeed hard times, you
know how that happens.
STEVE: Are you serious?
JOHN-S: Um-hum. Now, Steve.
STEVE: John, John O'Neil. Now, which one
are you?
JOHN-5: Which one am I? I'm, I'm the only
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER IN BACKGROUND:
You're John-5, John.
JOHN-5: I'm John-5, excuse me.
STEVE: Not really.
JOHN-5: Apparently I am.
STEVE: Okay, John-5. Wow.

JOHN-S:' l6
Right. This gets to be a little,
gets to be a little confusing at times, I'm sure.
STEVE: Yeah, really it does. Whoa. How do
you do, John-5? What a deal.
JOHN-5:
out there?
STEVE:Oh, just fine. How about yourself
I'm tired. I'm worn out, as usual
because no one takes my place here to talk with you
people, so.
JOHN-5:
little tough back
STEVE:Oh, yeah, I can imagine things get a
there, but --
So what happened to Linda? I was
just talking to her about something --
JOHN-5:
STEVE:You know --
-- and I accidentally, someone was
asking me a question and I was just going to ask her
something and --
JOHN-5: Oh, she's a -- something came up and
you know how it is with the ladies.
STEVE:
guys decided that
it wasn't working
JOHN-S:
Anyhow --
STEVE:
JOHN-5:Oh, you know that's nonsense. You
she shouldn't be on the phone or that
out.
Absolutely not. Nothing like that.
Yeah --
Steve, who were we going to put on

4-
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the phone? You had somebody standing up there you were
thinking about --
STEVE: John O'Neil, huh?
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: So you're number 5.
JOHN-5: That's what they say. Let's see. I
understand -- I just sort of wandered in here and I
gather that --
STEVE: You just wandered in there?
JOHN-5: No, just a few minutes ago, and I
gather you're going to be coming out tomorrow morning
to speak face-to-face when the video comes out?
STEVE: Well, this is news to me.
JOHN-5: Um-hum. Well, are you going to be
-- you're taking the video right now as we're speaking,
is that correct?
STEVE: No, no, I'm -- there's no light here.
You can't, how am I gonna do that at night? I don't
have any --
JOHN-5: Isn't that batt-- doesn't it have a
battery pack on it?
STEVE: You sent
and these cameras usually,
tomorrow it'll probably be
maximum, they say an hour,
minutes to a half hour.me one little battery pack,
in fact, if I use it
good for, I'd imagine at the
but it's usually about 4592
1
1
92

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JOHN-S: I see. Okay.
STEVE: So, and then if I did, I don't have
any flashes or any -- T
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- light units. If I did it'd, of
course, zap the batteries even more.
JOHN-S: Okay. How are you gonna set this up
tomorrow? Who are you gonna be taking pictures of?
STEVE: I'm gonna try to take a picture of
probably all the children here; if not, a good majority
of them.
JOHN-5: Um-hum. How many children are we
talking about?
STEVE: I - you know, I really don't know
right off, but I think, I think it's somewhere around,
let me - oh, what is the number. I think it's
somewhere around 20 or somewhere around there, give or
take. I'm not sure.
JOHN-5: Umhum. And these kids that are out
there now, what, are you gonna have them in various
rooms, you gonna have them as a group photo, or how are
you gonna do it?
STEVE: Probably as a group, probably have
them come into a room and just video them there.
JOHN-5: Umhum. And as far as these kids
are concerned, what have you got set up out there as

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far as sanitary facilities?
STEVE: Oh, since all this came about ~-
JOHN-S: Yeah.
STEVE: The usual. You know, the old potty
buckets.
JOHN-5: Um-hum, that's kind of a grim
situation. _
STEVE: It sure is. Mankind's been doing
that for 5,000-some hundred years, and you're right, it
is.
JOHN-5: Unfortunately we don't want to
revert back to that.
STEVE: No, we really don't. I mean, if you
want to turn the electricity back on.
JOHN-S: Absolutely, that sounds like it
could be a good deal, and I'll tell you what we'll do.
I'll cut you a deal. What happens then, I can talk to
our folks to turn that back on as you guys come on out.
How does that sound?
STEVE: Well, who's the electricity gonna be
for then, John-5? "
JOHN-5: So as you come out, so you can see
where you're going.
STEVE: I see, even though if it's daytime,
huh?
JOHN-5: Well, you never can tell. I thought

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you might want to come out tonight.
STEVE: Wow. I don't suppose you'd want to
come in and just sit down and talk with us --
JOHN-5: Oh, I'd love to do that.
Unfortunately, the, my bosses won't let us do that.
STEVE: One of these days hopefully I can
meet or talk to one of your bosses.
JOHN-S: We can probably set that up.
STEVE: When, tomorrow?
JOHN~5: We can do it right now if you want
tO .
STEVE: Oh, sure, I wouldn't mind talking to
one of your bosses.
JOHN-S: No, when you come on out. Come out
here, we can go face to face, we'll have these guys sit
down.
STEVE: Because it seems like, you know, I
heard from the beginning it seems like there's been a
lot of confusion as to what's all going on.
JOHN-5: I -- from where you're sitting I can
see why you'd say that, but from where we're sitting
it's not quite that bad.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-S: So that kind of worked it out. Now,
we're getting kind of concerned about Vernon there.
STEVE: David?

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JOHN-5: No, Vernon, from what we understand.
Isn't that his name?
STEVE: His legal -- he actually paid
money --
JOHN-5: Wow.
STEVE: -- went through an attorney, had his
name legally changed back in, I think it was like
February of 1990.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: So his name is David Koresh.
JOHN-5: I see. Well, you know --
STEVE: But you already knew. I mean, I'm
not telling you anything new, of course.
JOHN-5: Well, just -- nobody's wanted to
pick up information.
STEVE: I mean, I'm not offended either, I
mean, if, if you want to --
JOHN-S: No. There's no offense intended.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-5: Now, why -- let me see. I'm kind of
curious. It seems that, wasn't he in court back in
1988?
STEVE: Yes, he was. I believe it was March
or April or somewhere in that period of time. Probably
April, first part of April.
JOHN-S: Yeah, well, at that particular time,

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why didn't he go public with the idea that he was the
prophet or the Messiah, when he was in court?
STEVE: He never, he never claimed to be a
prophet or a messiah, never has. The only thing he's
ever done was, he said, like, I'll just really quickly
say it --
JOHN-S: Okay.
STEVE: -- as it says in Revelation S, it
shows basically only the Lamb can open and loose the
seven seals of this Book that's in the right hand of
the Father's hand.
JOHN-5: Yeah, we got -- I understand that
we're not gonna -- 
STEVE: Okay, what he says, all he says to
that is, let me serve you, let me show you in your
Bible where the seven seals are located.
JOHNS: Umhum.
STEVE: Let me show you what they are and
where they're located.
JOHN-5: Okay. What we - I gather the rules
of engagement here, we're not going to be talking too
much about the religious aspects of this. Is David the
Lamb?
STEVE: See, you, you're actually putting
yourself at a disadvantage when this group is nothing
but a religious, political group.

JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: So by not23
talking about religion I
don't know how we're gonna ever come out of this place,
because the people that are
got involved in the way youhere long before you people
are, were interested in the
book called the Bible and what it has to say as God's
word. So, you know, that's
saying what, now, is Vernon
JOHN5: Actually
Vernon the Lamb?
STEVE: Is he the
JOHN~5: Yes.the difficulty. You were
what, or David Vernon?
my question was, is David/
Lamb?
STEVE: Well, if his performance is one where
he's actually able to show the seven seals and all the
information dealing with that, that's left to the
hearer.
JOHN-5: Okay, that's in the eye of the
beholder, in other words.
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN-5:
STEVE:
JOHN-5: Okay.
STEVE:
not.
JOHN-5:Okay. Is Vernon Jesus?
Positively not.
Never claimed to be, he definitely is
Okay. It appears that he told
John-1 five times he was Jesus in addition to being the

24
Lamb.
STEVE: Not -- oh, no, not so.
92
JOHN-S: This is what --
STEVE: I know for sure, cause he -- if he
got --
JOHN-5: Not you. This is what he said.
STEVE: I, well, I've never heard that in my
life. I --
JOHN-5: Well, were you around when he make
-- when he discusses this stuff to, with us?
STEVE: Most of the time I have been, like
say the last two, three fairly major long conversations
that John Cox and David had, I was there. It's gonna
be hard to hear now because they've got the sounds
going on right now.
JOHN-5: Yeah, I hear the background noise.
STEVE: Yeah. So if you want, if you could,
just talk a little bit louder.
JOHN-5: Okay. So if things go along this
way -- hang on, I got a little question here for you.
STEVE: Sure. .
JOHN-5: When the kids were coming out here,
they were saying something to the effect that they
didn't have warm water, warm food or indoor plumbing,
and they found it very much to their liking.
STEVE: The children that -- the children --

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JOHNS: Yeah, yeah, when they came on back
out here this way.
STEVE: Do you mean the ones that came out
originally. W
JOHN-5: Right. When they came out here,
they were very happy to get back into having warm food,
warm water for baths, and --
STEVE: Oh, I'm sure.
JOHN-S: -- plumbing and all that.
STEVE: I don't, I don't blame them.
JOHN-5: Okay. So the rest of these kids
that you have in there --
STEVE: Don't have that, is right.
JOHN-5: Right.
STEVE: That's correct.
JOHN-5: And I gather you folks never had
that in there.
STEVE: That's correct.
JOHN-5: And is --
STEVE: Except for the warm -- no, we had
the, you know, we heat water. I
JOHN-S: Oh, Steve.
STEVE: They take baths in warm water and so
forth. That's nothing, you know, I mean that's common.
JOHN-5: Um-hum. Okay, Steve, so we're sort
of rolling along.

26
STEVE: Well, let's say this. We've more
than always as a group, as a body, as individuals, have
had --
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STETE: -- more than enough money to have the
most beautiful architectural structure that Waco has
ever seen.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: But at the same time, the churches of
the world all have their stained glass, carpeting, and
the pews --
JOHN-5: Um~hum.
STEVE: -- and plushness. See, the idea
behind it, if people really want truth they'll come
irregardless of the conditions. And we don't want to
draw people that are coming here for handouts and
comfort and convenience. I mean, the world has already
got, all the other churches have that. So it actually
separates those that are whole-hearty looking for
truth, and those that are coming for other reasons. So
that's really the, the, the reason why it was actually
set up and left that way.
JOHN-51 So you folks sort of enjoy living in
squalor.
STEVE: Not at all. Don't enjoy it at all.
In fact, I don't like it period. In fact, it's a daily

O C
' 27
battle where one actually has to take it day by day,
because there are times, humanly speaking, one feels
like throwing their hands in the air and going back to,
like Hawaii.
JOHN-5: Umhum.
STEVE: And the beautiful home I had --
JOHN-5: What island were you on over there,
John?
STEVE: Oahu. My name's Steve, but it was
Oahu.
JOHN5: Steve. I'm getting - well, you
have all these John's running around.
STEVE: Are you sure your name is John?
JOHN-5: Yeah, right.
STEVE: Okay. Yeah, I lived on the island of
Oahu, but spent quite a bit of time on Kauai, which my,
was my favorite island.
JOHN-5: Yeah.
STEVE: My wife and I were going to build a
home on about 20 acres there. But, of course, my
world, my life was turned upside down when I ran into
him -~
JOHN-S: Um~hum. _
STEVE: -- who was able to ~- I was not able
to controvert what he had, and that was the first time
in my life I was not able to nail a, a theologian or

C C
' 28
anyone from any denomination to the wall ~-
JOHN~5: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- with the Bible. And in fact, he
did that to me basically. He kept on answering
everything with very clear concise answers.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: So that's how I got involved.
JOHN-5: I see.
STEVE: And I do have a conviction. I mean,
the main reason why I haven't come out is, honestly,
because I believe strongly in God, the God of the
Bible, and I won't get into it but, you know, that's
it. I mean --
JOHN-5: Yeah.
STEVE: -- I really can't say --
JOHN-5: Well, I can understand what you're
saying.
STEVE: If it wasn't for that, I'd have been
out before -- if I would have seen myself cattle trucks
driving down the road, man, I'd have been crawling on
my hands and knees out of this place quickly.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: If it wasn't for the conviction of
the Bible. But I didn't even know what was going on.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: I knew that Gonzales had been here, I

29
saw him. And when he left I saw him head over to his
house and then take off instead of eating his breakfast
like he said. And I did wonder, I must admit, I
wondered what was going on.
JOHN-5: Yeah, well, I don't really want to
talk about that kind of stuff.
STEVE: Okay, no problem.
JOHN-S: You know, the situation here that
we're -- getting back to the children.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-S: In essence, what we're talking
about, the conditions you got the kids in, would be
considered child abuse in certain areas.
STEVE: Well, then let them prosecute us and
hang us by the neck till dead and then they can be free
of, you know, individuals like us.
JOHN5: Well, what kind of childhood did you
have, Steve, that --
STEVE: Well, you got to remember. You know,
when you look at America and the American frontier and
how this country started for the last 250, 3, 400
years.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: If that's child abuse, I've never
seen -- In this America where children are allowed to
be so hyperactive and then the parents are not

consistent in their, in
and in their correction
thing that impressed me
him was when he had his
Cyrus.30
their training of the children
of the children -- The first
about David when I first met
16-year-old -- 16-month boy
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: And the little boy was acting up and
David says, "No, son," just like that. Not loud, not
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- never raising a voice to him. And
he started making a fuss and so forth, and David says,
"Son, come here."
JOHN-5: Um~hum.
STEVE: "Bring your spoon." So he took him
around the corner, didn't make a big scene out of it,
and he talked to him and then he, he took the spoon
five times, not hard, on his seat, went 1, 2, 3, 4, S.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: And the son he turned around, hugged
his dad, they kissed each other on the cheek.
JOHN-5: Umhum.
STEVE: I mean, I've never seen children
behave consistent, well -- and this, all this other
nonsense with the press, I'm telling you for a fact,
it's not true. It's --

.-¢.
31
JOHN-S: It certainly sounds like he has a
way with children. I got a little problem, Steve. I'm
trying to work this out in mind if you can help me out.
STEVE: Well  Indiscernible! if you, if you
have problems I hope I can help you.
JOHN-5: That's what I'm trying and hope you
can do here too.
STEVE: Why, do you have children that are
misbehaving, that are hyperactive or what?
JOHN-5: Well, something along this line.
STEVE: Okay. Read the Book of Proverbs.
JOHN-5: Can I, can I squeeze it in here
before -- l
STEVE: You sure, you sure can.
JOHN-5: -- you run over me with this
business here?
STEVE : Okay - - _
JOHN-5: Have you ever known any prophet who
has taken wives and children away from husbands and
parents and had copulation with them?
STEVE: I've, I've heard of things like that
before when I studied comparative religion and so
forth.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: There's many religions in the world
that are extremely bizarre like Tantric Buddhism,

9 Q
Lamaism, as some
JOHN-S:
in this culture,
your mind as the
STEVE:
be for you, I mea
JOHNS:
of curious to see
STEVE:
place, ask your question again, because I, I don't know
that I caught all
to make sure that
JOHN-5:
STEVE:
JOHN-S:
STEVE:
I'm, I'm --
JOHN5:
STEVE:
mean, that's what
so --
Q JOHN-5:
STEVE:
of your -- wait j 32
call it.
Yeah. But in this day and age and
how would you rationalize that in
correct way to do things?
Well, see, whatever my answer would
n, of course --
I'm waiting to hear now, I'd be kind
what you have to say.
But, but in the -- in the first
of it and I don't want to ma-- I want
I heard exactly what you were saying.
Okay. In essence, I've never re--
Just a minute.
All right. You --
Listen to this for a minute, cause
Okay, go ahead.
Listen to this one.  Pause.! I
I'm -- you're competing against that,
No, my he--
-- if I'm missing some of your, part
ust a minute. Is that --
 Indiscernible, speaking to someone in background.!
JOHN-5: Yeah.i
1

O O
33
STEVE:  Indiscernible!
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: IS he
talking to --
STEVE: Scott.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah.
STEVE: Go over to the other window.
 Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.!
STEVE: Okay, yeah, I got a guy here that's
talking to a dog ear. If that isn't bizarre I don't
know what is. Go ahead, John.
JOHN-5: Okay, here's what the situa-- I
have got, I've been hearing these various stories and
what I've got trouble understanding is how can a fellow
understand --
STEVE: Have multiple wives?
JOHN-S: No, no, no, no.
STEVE: It's illegal. A
JOHN-S: Shh, shh. Please, let me finish,
okay, I'm in --
STEVE: Okay, oh, I'm sorry.
JOHN-5: Okay. How can a man give up his
wife and his children, have his wife cop-- being
screwed, basically, by this prophet, and then having
his children screwed by this prophet.
STEVE: Well, it's not happened. It's all

92
I
 34
something that has come from people that --
STEVE: Well --
JOHN-5: -- now avowed enemies of this group,
that followed -- like Marc Breault. He's the one that
introduced me to David. He himself finally obtained a
master's degree in theology. Loma Linda University.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: He --
JOHN-5: Ah, Loma Linda, know it well.
STEVE: He went.
JOHN-S: What about Judy though, didn't Judy
-- wasn't that your wife and didn't that happen to you?
STEVE: Not at all. In fact --
JOHN-5: Did she --
STEVE: -- all these -- that's not, you ought
to hear some of the other rumors and bizarre things
that Marc Breault came up with.
JOHN-5: Okay, tell me about it, I'm
interested in hearing.
STEVE: Well, I've heard things like right
from the beginning that I've run around in a brown robe
in places like London. That, oh, I --
JOHNS: It might be very fashionable over
there, you never know.
STEVE: Well, yeah, you're probably right,
especially on Carnaby, huh?

' 35
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: But, no, there's been, there's no end
of those kind of things. I'll tell you how it worked
right from the beginning. when I first met David I was
in Hawaii, and I belonged to the Seventh Day Adventist
Church.
JOHN-S: Um-hum.
STEVE: There was like, there's probably
6,000, 7,000 members, whatever. And all of a sudden my
name went, went around that island so fast, I didn't
even know who the guy was. I was just listening to
him, asking him a few questions --
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: Listen to this. Listen.  Pause.!
You hear that, John?
JOHN-S: That soun-- I'm not quite sure. It,
some sort of noise --
A STEVE: They, they've got a baby crying over
the speakers right now.
JOHN-5: Oh.
STEVE: An infant.
JOHN-5: You know --
STEVE: Child abuse, John, child abuse.
JOHN-5: Uh-huh. Well, what about this
situation with Judy, let's get --
STEVE: You don't, do you always have a baby

C O
 36
there that you're beating on or something?
JOHN-S: Yeah, the Bureau baby. Right.
STEVE; Okay, okay, go ahead.
JOHN-S: Anyhow, Steve, we understand that --
how do you explain that Judy had a wife by David?
STEVE: A wife? Judy --
JOHN-5: Had a child by David.
STEVE: Judy had a wife --
JOHN-5: We'll get this straight yet.
STEVE:  Laughs.! You see, you're just
listening to --
JOHN-5: Uh-huh.
STEVE: You're reading too many of these
Inquirer and Star magazines.
JOHN-S: Oh, I wish I had the time, but is
there any truth to this?
STEVE: Yeah. John, there's no truth to any
of that, whatever --
JOHN-5: There's no truth that David --
STEVE: No, what you need to do --
JOHN-5: -- and Judy had a child? Your wife
Judy had a child?
STEVE: I'll tell you --
JOHN-5: By David?
STEVE: All these rumors, let's take them one
at a time. In fact, I will tell you what is true

37
though. It is true that he did marry a 14-year-old
girl, Rachel Ha-- Rachel Jones, that is true.
JOHN-5: All right.
STEVE: And it is true that he does have more
than one wife, just like he's stated.
JOHN-5: Is your wife Judy one of his wives?
STEVE: Judy has been my wife always.
JOHN-S: All right.
STEVE: His wives, he, in fact, will show
you, I believe he, didn't he show you a picture of them
and the video that was taken? I'm, I know he did.
We'd sent it in to you.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: Don't you remember the video? Did
you ever get to see the video?
JOHN-S: No, I didn't see that particular
video.
STEVE: Oh, okay, no wonder you're asking me
these questions.
JOHN-5: Right. Well, did Judy have a child
with David that --
STEVE: I'll tell you what. You know what
I'd like to do?
JOHN-5: Did he or didn't she?
STEVE: I'm going to -- no, listen to me,
John.

u
JOHN-5: Yes or no, Steve
STEVE
questions first
JOHN-
STEVE
time, you know,- , -
9292.
: I'm going to ask
5: No, no, no, I'm
: No, I mean, I, I
go with people. Iyou a number of
- but --
do this all the
mean, you know,
this, this whole thing like even with the press.
JOHN-5: Okay.
STEVE: When I come walking out of here, the
sensationalism of the press, the fir-- you know what
they're going to be asking.
JOHN-5: No.
STEVE: Like yourself. You know, the
more --
JOHN-5: Well, I don't think they're going to
be asking that, cause I don't think they'll have a
chance to talk to you about it.
STEVE:  lndiscernible! the nonsense, the
bizarre and so forth. Everything I'm going to talk to
you about is gonna deal in the logic. It's gonna make
sense. I'm gonna get -- everything deals with the
Bible, by the way. Do you, do you believe in this book
called the Bible or not? I mean, it's no big deal
either way if you do or not to me, because, you know
JOHN-5: Um-hum.

O
Q 39
STEVE: -- I would still respect you. I
don't have any other, no reason why not to.
JOHN-5: Hey, I unders--
STEVE: Do you believe, do you believe in the
Bible?
JOHN-5: Excuse me? Well, I don't really get
into that one way or the other. Okay?
STEVE: Well, I was serious. You, you asked
me some pretty --
JOHN-5: Look, I'm serious too, but let's get
back to this other situation.
STEVE: You asked me, you asked me some
pretty bizarre questions that are actually, some of --
JOHN5: Well, they're not -- here's what
happened --
STEVE: -- they're very offending, you know
that.
JOHN-5: You -- I can understand that and,
and I must --
STEVE: I mean, to be honest with you --
JOHN-5: We've been hearing these stories and
I just want to get to the, the basic truth of it.
STEVE: -- has your wife gone to bed with --
are you married?
JOHN-5: Yes.
STEVE: Has your wife been to bed with any

Q Q
40
other man besides yourself?
JOHN-S: Oh, I don't know, not recently, I
hope.
STEVE: Mine, you know, I, mine never has.
You know, I have never been to bed with any other woman
other than Judy --
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- do you know, that's the truth,
that's a fact.
JOHN-5: Well --
STEVE: That's the truth.
JOHN-5: I understand Judy introduced herself
STEVE: Have you, have you been to bed with
any other woman besides your wife? 
JOHN-5: Steve, Judy introduced herself on
the video as Judy Shiner -- Schneider --
STEVE: No, no, no.
JOHN-5: Koresh.
STEVE: Yeah, she did that purposely for
people like yourselves.
JOHN-5: Okay, why?
. STEVE: Well, my name is Steven Schneider-
Koresh too, by the way. Did you know that?
JOHN-5: Um-hum. Are you still, are you
still going to bed with Judy?

~_ .|'92»_
' 4 1
STEVE: Well, listen, listen, this is hard,
listen to this.  Pause.! Yeah, I'll tell you the
truth, it's very hard to hear you. Very hard to hear
you.
JOHN-S: Yeah, I can imagine, that's, that's
-- the noise is really loud back there. You got some
real heavy background noise.
STEVE: Yeah, it must be some FBI agent
laying out there snoring or something, I don't know.
JOHN-5: There's a lot of that going around.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN~5: Did --
STEVE: I'd really --
JOHNS: Steve, did you legally change your
name to Koresh?
STEVE: No, none of us have, only David has.
JOHN-5: Okay.
A STEVE: Only David has.
JOHN-5: I see. And David's still ~- is
David sleeping through all this?
I STEVE: I, I would imagine he is not.
, JOHN-5: In a case like that, why don't we
get him on the phone for just a fast 30 seconds.
STEVE: I asked him earlier when he was
actually awake.
JOHN-5: Yeah?

0 0
42
STEVE: And he said he, he did not feel well.
He says he was not in a frame of mind to talk to
anybody. That's what he actually said.
JOHN-5: Yeah.
STEVE: And he said, tell them I hopefully
will be speaking with them tomorrow.
JOHN-5: Yeah.
STEVE: That's what he told me, and I says,
okay, will do it.
JOHN-5: Yeah, cause we have a rather
important message for him that we want to bring on up.
STEVE: I realize that, but you got to
remember you guys have -- the -- not you, but the rest
have done this since day one, insisted, but, you know
yourself, if you're in a place under these kind of
circumstances, you're going to do what you want to do.
And right now, and being that the guy is wounded, he's
not feeling well, I mean there's times you just don't
want to talk. I mean, I've already been sick.
JOHN-5: Yeah. Well --
STEVE: There are times, you know, I mean
it's aggravating to have someone come and bother you
and so forth.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: I mean, I'm a very irritable person
in the morning.

Q Q.
43
JOHN-S: Yeah, these are very unusual
circumstances, though, Steve.
STEVE: Tell me, hey, tell me. I came out
here from California --
JOHN5: So consequently he --
STEVE: -- a month ago to study the Bible for
-- I was going to go back to California and boom, boom,
boom, boom, boom, and I'm laying, ducking on the flo--
they, you should have seen the bullets go over the top
of my -- I didn't even know why they were shooting
where I was. There wasn't a soul around there doing
any shooting.
JOHN-5: Yeah. I don't really want to get
involved in it. We're not going to be talking about
that situation, as you know.
STEVE: Well, the ATP agent is nationally,
that's for sure.
JOHN-S: Well, we don't talk about it
ourselves.
STEVE:  lndiscernible! for me to shut his
mouth.
JOHN-S: Well, unfortunately, you and I, we
can't discuss it.
STEVE: Well, that's -- to tell you the
truth, that's one guy I'm not crazy about at all.
JOHN-5: I can understand it.

O O
44
STEVE: To think a guy in America like that
would do something like that --
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- not even himself seeing and
knowing all the facts. What kind of a human being is
he?
JOHN-5: Steve, what's gonna happen here, I'm
more concerned with talking with David or Vernon. And
what's happening with that, by him not showing any sort
of leadership on this situation and jeopardizing
everybody even more out there.
STEVE: I believe he's --
JOHN-5: We're trying to resolve this thing
peacefully. _
STEVE: John, I believe he will though, I
really do believe he will.
JOHN-5: He's gonna come down and talk to us
tomorrow?
STEVE: I'm hoping, I'm, I'm seriously --
JOHN-5: Or how about tonight?
STEVE: I think he's getting better, but I
think he's always trying to push it too quick. But I,
I looked at the wound, I saw it today, and it's the
best I've seen it, even though he had a headache and so
forth.
JOHN5: Um-hum.

45
STEVE: But I, I think that's just -- I, I
got a feeling it may only be some signs of healing
still, I really do. I don't think, I think he's okay.
The, the color of his skin doesn't look bad, he's --
JOHN-5: Do you know what kind of medicine
you're putting on that?
STEVE: I, I don't know what she's actually
doing with it. I know they have some. I don't
remember what you people also sent in that bag other
than the bugs, but --
JOHN-5: Well. What, what bag?
STEVE: This, there was a ba- they called it
a suture bag, of course.
JOHN-5: Okay, suture bag.
STEVE: It had  Indiscernible! and all sorts
of different things.
JOHN-5: And this is when the nurse took that
stuff and managed to patch him up.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-5: Yeah. Okay. I think what we're
concerned about is, he spoke to us about four days ago.
And then we thought, okay, we might be able to speak
with him again, and then lo and behold, he just dropped
out of sight. Now, we're wondering what his situation
is in there. Now, you seem to think that he's
constantly sleeping or meditating?

4 . 92 I
46
STEVE: I don't think he is sleeping. You
know, I mean, I, I -- especially with this kind of
noise going on. He's a very light sleeper from what I
understand, unless he's been awake for like -- that day
that he was --
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: Remember a week ago and he sent out
like seven people in less than twenty-four hours?
JOHN-S: Yeah.
STEVE: He had talked and talked for well
over 24 hours. He really did.
JOHN-S: Terrific.
STEVE: And finally he just passed out. I
mean, he literally passed out --
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- because of being awake so long.
And then being in this weakened state. And he told me
before he went out, he says, well, I'll talk to you
when I wake up again about who else we can be sending
out, or you talk to me.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: And that's when all these other
things took place, with the cutting the cords and then
the sounds and, you know, all these other things that
the commanders decided to do. And that's what actually
broke this whole thing. It really did.

0 0
4 7
JOHN-5: Okay.
STEVE: And then he tried, and myself with
Livingston Pagan tried to regenerate it again.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: And that more destruction outside,
more of the same thing, so ever since then I've had a
hard time even with him, let alone talking to these
people. And then I get people like Dick and Henry and
JOHN-5: The rest of the gang, huh?
STEVE: -- John-3 and everybody else
expecting to do what we've been doing right up to this
time, but I keep on telling them the -- they tell me
the commanders want more and I'm telling them they're
wrecking everything that we're doing and it's getting
ten times worse. And, and the more they threaten these
people the more they'll lay down right on the floor and
they can run the tanks over them. I mean, that's, that
becomes the attitude.
JOHN-5: Um-hum. Well, you know, you've got
your hands full. You got a --
STEVE: I'll - tell me.
JOHN-5: - obviously -~
STEVE: Tell me.
JOHN-5: Yeah, I can see David not being able
to help you out too much, and you're basically trying

O   9
48
to run the show --
STEVE: Well, but, but know your, know your
commanders.
JOHN-5: Say again?
STEVE: Know your commanders. They're not
helping me out either, are they.
JOHN-5: Yeah. Well, in a situation like
that we're trying to get the thing done out here. And
what's happening here, we're - safety is every, on
everybody's mind. You sound like you're working in the
right direction, trying to get this thing resolved
peacefully and so forth.
STEVE: Well, I sure thought so but I don't
know anymore.
JOHN5: And if you - but now you've got our
friend David not -- apparently incommunicado. And
you're -- he's not talking to anybody, he's completely
either sleeping or meditating or something like that,
so this whole responsibility for this operation is
falling on your shoulders. Now, what are you going to
do about it?
STEVE: I really -- probably, number one, I'm
trying to figure out how I can get out to where those
speakers are and stick some rags in there.
JOHN-5: That's the, that's the first date.
STEVE: Huh? -

49
JOHN-5: It -- let me -- that's the first
step. yeah.
STEVE: Yeah, you, just so I could talk to
you. You know, one thing that is, I think that's
really caused him to
he has said something about it. Since you guys started
doing that with the noises and so forth, it's like it's
irritated him to thebe the way he is. In fact, I know
place where, keep it up and he
just, he won't bother talking with you anymore.
JOHN-S: Yeah.
STEVE: I did hear him say something to that
effect in the beginning when this all started. He felt
very insulted that, when he had worked with John Cox
and seven people went out in that period of time --
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: --
this started and has
then, I don't really
of any communicationand it was going to increase, when
never really let up, I mean since
believe that you've had too much
with him. And I believe that's
the major, one of the major reasons. I think that he's
taken that as an extreme insult.
JOHN-5: What -- now, run this by. How does
he feel insulted?
STEVE: Because --
JOHN-S: I
you're saying.want to be sure I understand what

'6 O
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STEVE: Well, because number one, you know,
like even when he was trying to actually talk with
people about going out, you guys had this, these weird
noises going even then. He was trying to compete with
it.
JOHN-5: I don't think that's really much of
a problem.
STEVE: Well, it sure -- well, wait, you
ought to come here and listen to it more.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: You -- I'm serious, you can't hardly
keep a person's attention long enough. You really
can't.
JOHN-5: Um-hum. Okay. In a situation like
this, you have David, as I mentioned before, flat on
his back having various problems.
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN-5: And then basically you're running
this show. You're trying to keep everybody happy.
STEVE: I'm not running the show. I just,
I'm the person that goes around here trying to talk -~
I mean, a lot of these people are not like me, they're
in, they're into what they can see for themselves.
Well me, I'm concerned for everybody. I mean, that's
just my nature.
JOHN5: Um-hum.

figure ou
thing don
times it51
STEVE: Cause I'm around here trying to
t what we can do for these people and get this
e and alleviated, taken care of. And a lot of
s gotten to the place where they're not giving
me the time of day anymore, John.
really arJOHN~5: Yeah.
STEVE: I mean seriously, they're not. They
en't. I mean it's come to a place where I've
gotten almost so frustrated, what's the sense in, what,
what, wha t's the next move to make? I don't know. I
don't know what to do anymore.
JOHN~S: You know, it's -- you know, things
are only going to get worse out there. This whole
situation
the only way we're going to have to
situation
end of it
work to a
trick is,
come on o
work?
not say tis not going to go away. You know and I know
resolve this
is you folks come on out. That's, that's the
right there. And now you are gonna have to
point where this is gonna happen. Now the
how. Now, we've given you a few ideas to
ut --
STEVE: Well, you know what I think would
JOHN~5: Go ahead.
STEVE: I think would work -- well, I better
hat.
JOHN-5: Go ahead. It's your dime.

Q O
52
STEVE: I was just going to say, throw a
match to the building, people will have to come out.
JOHN-S: No, we're not going to do something
like that. You know that.
I STEVE: Well, to tell you the truth, I don't
think anybody would.
JOHN-5: No. On this type of a situation,
the way we're -- the way we're looking at it right now
and what we're hoping for is that you'd come to some
sort of comm-- use your common sense and start thinking
right, along with David. There's just too many
people's lives at stake at this thing in there.
STEVE: well, I realize that, John, that's
why -- 92
JOHN-5: And you're a respon-- you sound,
Steve, you sound like you're a responsible person. In
a situation like this, hey there's, that's the answer.
STEVE: I tell you what, it definitely is an
unusual situation for sure.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: Oh. Sometime when you have a chance,
read Isaiah 33 about people living in fire and walking
through it and coming out and surviving.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: Seriously. Who can -- it says, who
can dwell in everlasting burning. That's the question.

 or
53
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: I know, you're, you're talking to an
associate there. What are, what suggestion do they
have?
JOHN-5: I don't know. What do your other
people do out there during the day, all your, you know,
all the other guys and gals you got out there?
STEVE: Basically, most of the time, well,
for logistics purposes --
JOHN5: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- so you know what's go-- happening
around here, most of them are reading the Bible as
they're alert. I
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: You know, everybody stays alert, of
course, cause no one ever knows what you guys are
going to be doing.
JOHN-5: No. We're trying to resolve this
thing.
STEVE:  Indiscernible! Well, no, cause you
guys are always calling up and, you know --
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- between intimidation and threats,
and I'm trying to work -~ I'm trying to gain a respect
and a trust for you guys --
JOHN-5: Um-hum.

I
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54
STEVE: --  Indiscernible! because it's, it's
happened at times.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: Then like what happened just the
other day with Henry when we told, it was told this guy
could go out -- was that just ye-- that was yesterday,
wasn't it?
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: Losing track of time, when he went to
dump some water and it was okay, then all of a sudden
the Bradley comes flying up on him and freaks him out
and --
JOHN-5: Um-hum. Well, you never can tell
STEVE: And all of a sudden Henry te1l-- he
goes to talk with the commanders again and then they
come back in with a threat for me and telling me, don't
do this and that or else or this and --
92 JOHN-5: Well, you --
STEVE: And I said Henry, what in the heck,
you're the one that said it was a go-ahead. I mean,
who would have even brought it up if it wouldn't have,
hadn't have been agreed upon.
JOHN-S: Yeah. These things have to be
coordinated, you know. Did you tell anybody that this
fellow was going to come out and dump this stuff?

§ I
SS
STEVE: Yes, most definitely did, twice.
JOHN-5: All right.
STEVE: And then, then they - a person by
the name of Blackie got on the phone and, and said the
same thing.
JOHN5: Um-hum.
STEVE: The third time. That's when it was
okayed.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: And then all of a sudden these
threats all came. See, that's what makes it hard for
me to communicate with these people, then they don't
trust coming out and dealing with those kind of people
that go back on their word.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: They don't, they don't understand
who's in control and it doesn't seem like anybody
really is. You, you understand?
JOHN-S: Oh, I understand, I'm --
STEVE: Okay, so that's very diffi--
JOHN-S: We have a very definite chain of
command running around out here.
STEVE: Well see, that's what makes it hard,
though. That's why at times I wonder what good does it
do in dealing with negotiators when they're never in
control anyhow.

O I
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JOHN-5: This is your best vehicle for
working these things out.
STEVE: Are you su-
JOHN-S: One --
STBVE: John, are you sure?
JOHN-S: Absolutely. It's been done time and
time again. We've been in on these things time and
time again. See, the utmost you have to keep in your
mind is, you want everybody out of here safely. You
want to resolve this thing without --
STEVE: I believe you, I really do, I believe
that.
JOHN5: And on a situation like this, it's
working with us like you're hoping to do -- See, we
ask you various questions, and we lay out various
scenarios for you, but it just doesn't seem to happen.
And it gets frustrating for you and it gets frustrating
for us.
STEVE: Do you want to talk --
JOHN-S: Now, we have all the time in the
world and you're back in there and this is not the,
this is not the way you want it, I'm sure.
STEVE: By the way, you don't want to talk
about adultery or fornication anymore, do you?
JOHN-5: Not right now.
STEVE: Okay. Next time you want to bring it

. S7
up, though, let me ask you a few questions.
JOHN-S: Oh, I'll -- Okay, we'll mo--
STEVE: And then, then we'll ask a few of
some of the other -- let, let's ask - I tell you what
we really ought to do is investigate Jerry Falwell.
See how many mistresses he has.
JOHN-5: Well, that's, that's an entirely
different situation, that's not what we're here for
today.
STEVE: What about, how about Jimmy Swaggart
and  Indiscernible!
JOHN-5: You know, all that kind of stuff
would be very interesting when this thing is over.
STEVE: Yeah, when God brings it all in, like
it says in Ecclesiastes 12, every thought and action
will be coming up in the judgement.
JOHN-5: Um-hum.
STEVE: Everybody's  Indiscernible!
JOHN-5: Well, that may or may not be
happening. But the situation is, we got to resolve
what's right here -~
STEVE:  Indiscernible!
JOHN-S: -- and what's right now.
STEVE: Well -- Y
JOHN-S: I want to -- let me see.
STEVE: Yeah.

58
JOHN-5: Your other men, basically, when
they're around here, they just sort of sit around and
meditate all day? And the other --
STEVE: Yeah, they read the Bible, they talk,
they discuss the Bible, they -- they look out the
window and --
O JOHN-
STEVE
JOHN-
weapons?
STEVE
JOHN-
STEVE
 Laughs.!
JOHN-
STEVE
JOHN-5
5
5
S
5Yeah.
-- they walk around and --
Okay, do, do they walk around with
Do the walk around with weapons?
Yeah.
We don't even have any here.
You don't have any weapons in there?
No, it's all been a contrived lie.
 Laughs.! Steve, Steve, Steve,
you're breaking my heart with stories like that.
STEVE:  Laughs.! I thought I would go -- I
thought --
JOHN-S: You an old California QUY, I can't
believe that.
STEVE: I thought I'd try to counter Dave
Tr-- David Troy there.
JOHN-5: Oh.
STEVE: He's just so extreme, why don't we

 1'
S9
take the other opposite part here. Now  Indiscernible!
JOHN-5: Uh-huh. You got somebody telling
you what --
STEVE: Huh? -
JOHN-5: Have you got somebody coaching you
or telling you what to say there? I
STEVE: I'm here all by myself.
JOHN-5: There's nobody else listening in on
any of the --
STEVE: No, I'm, I'm sitting in a chair right
by the front door right now. I'll even let you know
where I'm at. If you want, you can come running over
JOHN-5: Okay.
STEVE: -- visiting me here.
JOHN5= All right. Go ahead, it sounds good
to me. Where are you?
STEVE: No, I'm, I'm actually right near the
front part of the building here, I'm sitting in a
little chair here and I'm sitting near the --
JOHN-S: What kind of chair is it? You got a
nice big comfortable chair?
STEVE: No, it actually is -- I don't know
what kind of a chair it is. It's a stuffed chair of
some sort.
JOHN-5: Um-hum, yeah.

O O
 60
STEVE: It's not the most luxurious thing,
it's nothing like Jerry Falwell would be ever sitting
in.
JOHN-5: Yeah, is that up there --
STEVE:  Indiscernible!
JOHN-5: -- right by the front door you're
at?
STEVE: Pretty close. Just so you know,
understand proximity of what you've seen from the
building --
JOHN-5: No, I've never been out there, to
tell you the truth.
STEVE: Oh, you haven't?
JOHN-5: No.
STEVE: You don't have a diagram in front of
you there?
JOHN-5: No, nothing at all. I --
STEVE: Boy, you guys are not as efficient as
I thought you would have been.
JOHN-S: Well, you know, some, other people
do the worry about those things. I just worry about
talking to you.
STEVE: ATF. It's those --
JOHN-5: Excuse me?
STEVE: The ATP, I would imagine.
JOHN-5: No, I'm not, don't know anything

O O
61
about that, their operation. I only stick with ~-
STEVE:  Indiscernible! the ATF.
JOHN-5: -- the FBI.
STEVE: Oh, okay, the -- I thought maybe the
ABC or something.
JOHN-S: No, I don't know, not quite the ABC.
STEVE:  Indiscernible!
JOHN-5: So anyhow, you're sitting there and
there's nobody else around you?
STEVE: There's a, there are, they're about,
oh, 20 feet from me there's someone over by a window.
JOHN-5: Uh-huh. And, in other words, you
have people looking out all the time and then --
STEVE: Oh, yeah.
JOHN-5: This is a peaceful organization
you're part of.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, but when you
guy -- when you have people on the outside there doing
what they're doing morning, noon, and night and running
around digging up hole, new holes and sand bags and
running over more private property and private --
JOHN-5: Well, that's to protect you and to
protect them at the same time.
STEVE: Oh, John.
JOHN5: No, seriously, they don't want to
get hurt.

62
STEVE: -- you guys themselves --
JOHN-S: Nor do you want to get --
STEVE: -- to get hurt.
JOHN-5: Nor do you want anybody out there
hurt.
STEVE: No, it's just your way of trying to
impress people to come out before everything's finally
ran over one of these days.
JOHN-5: No, no. We're hoping that's not
gonna happen.
STEVE: I just hope you run over this old
carcass so I can get a new one.
JOHN-5: Your old carca- young guys like
you, good grief. You know, you got the oldest living
agents running here talking to you.
STEVE: I, I would imagine.l
JOHN-S: Um-hum.
STEVE: When do you guys usually retire?
JOHN-5: We don't.
STEVE: Yeah, you just, you grow old --
JDHN-5: Mr. Hoover didn't want us to do it.
STEVE: Oh, yeah?
JOHN-5: Now --
STEVE: Did he ever, did he ever make any
investments in the Hoover vacuum cleaner company?
JOHN-5: NO. -

0
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y
1
;
92C O
63
STEVE: No, no relation, huh?
JOHN-S: No, we cleaned up there otherwise.
Getting back to the situation you've got there.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-5: Then what do the gals do? Do they,
do they cook for you guys or how is that handled?
STEVE: Oh, boy. Let's see. The last time I
blew my nose --
JOHN-5: Yeah.
STEVE: I --
JOHN-5: Oh, come on, Steve.
STEVE: There's no sense in talking anymore
about those sort of things. We'll leave that be.
JOHN-5: Okay. Could I just --
STEVE: Unless you want to tell me about your
operation, what's all going on in -- I mean, you guys
don't even tell me some of the things I think I need to
know to come out, to understand what I, I'm going to go
through.
JOHN-5: You know, in essence --
STEVE: I mean there's a lot of ambiguous
things and that usually you tell me you don't know,
which is highly unlikely that you wouldn't know some of
the more major questions I ask.
JOHN-5: No, what happens, normally, there's
two sets, you know, the guys that are doing, or setting

64
up and running the, the perimeter. We have -- I have
very little dealings with them. Remember, I have
absolutely no dealings with them. So whatever they're
doing out there, that's entirely different than what I
-- I have no idea what they're doing. But the
important thing is here, is
your crowd out, and without
problems. And --
STEVE: Well, you
you, you people should have
us, if you go back, whetherto get you out of here, get
any sort of particular
know, these guys, you know,
been able to detect from
you were around back in the
beginning, these guys really worked --
JOHN-5: Which guys are we talking about?
STEVE: The ones that are in the building
here.
JOHN-5: Okay.
STEVE: That, when that day happened, I mean,
they wanted to see the wounded get to a hospital._ They
wanted to see them taken care of.
JOHN-S: Um-hum.
STEVE: If you would have only known the
sentimenty, the reaction, the added -- these are people
that love life, that have always wanted people to have
an opportunity --
 End Tape #175.!

Q Q
E

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #176
3/27/93
11:34 p.m. - 12:221 a.m.1

 Tape 176!
STEVE: If you said to me, Steve, I don't
want to hear about those kind of things. That's my
choice. I'd say I respect that. I'll never --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I won't mention it again. I won't
mention it again.
JOHN: I think that's absolutely correct,
Steve, until where it starts imposing upon other
people. Then we got a problem.
STEVE: Well, that's what I'm saying. That
what I'm saying. And I, I don't will to impose my
thoughts and ideas or beliefs upon yourself especially
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- if you ask me. I've got my own
concepts. I'm not interested at all. I'm going to
leave it be then. If that's the way you would --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- want it, I'd -- that's where it
stops.
JOHN: Yeah. See, myself and the other
fellows have talked with you, they're people from the
Bureau, we told you exactly what's going to happen to
you --
STEVE: Uh-huh.

3
JOHN: -- and what's going to happen to
everybody else when they come out. There's not going
to be anything that's going to be considered as ~
undignified or anything along that line. It's going to
be done very well and very nicely and nobody's going to
be rolling around in the mud or anything else like
that. And, so, we start talking about -- now, you
folks are making mention of the fact that you are
afraid to come out. There's going to be problems or
something like that.
STEVE: Well, no, it's just that being
incarcerated for a long period of time even though I
bel -- I mean I know, look at - before the living God,
before whatever, I know I'm innocent.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I have done nothing.
JOHN: Okay. That's --
STEVE: When I came - I know, but -- I know
it's -- I believe that there's going to be a lot
happening to me. If what's happened to Kathy Schroeder y
has -- just because freedom of speech is not freedom of
speech. I, I know where I was. And I mean by the
very witness --
JOHN: Okay. I don't want to talk about any
of that stuff, where you were or what you did.
STEVE: Okay. 

Q I
4
JOHN: I don't want to get involved in that.
STEVE: But, anyway, I was --
JOHN: What I do want to reenforce with you ~
that you have an outstanding lawyer that's going to
represent you. And you've been around long enough to
know how -- the magic that lawyers can work especially
if they're good like the one you have. You might --
God -- and, you know, what they -- you might be able to
beat the situation, possibly. I don't know what's
going to happen.
STEVE: Well, I -- you know what? If this
land is the land of the free and if this is -- this
system is what it should have always been, I have no
concerns in the world about beating it.
JOHN: Uh-huh, okay.
STEVE: Because I've never had a gun. I've
never fired one.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: In fact, when that day came, I was
the one screaming for what's going on and, and help,
with Wayne Martin back in a room. H
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: And I was actually so angry as to
think that someone was trying to take my life and they
didn't even know who I was, where I was, wasn't doing
anything. There was no -- bullets flying through the

'0 O
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wall, never seen where they were coming from. I mean I
-- you may not want to hear it --
JOHN: I can definitely understand what
you're saying.
STEVE: You may not want to hear it but
that's what I went through and my life was definitely
just about over then.
JOHN: Yeah. I had two tours in Vietnam. I
know what it means to get shot at.
STEVE: I'll tell you -- I'll tell you --
I'll tell you the truth, I had, I had, I had shaky
knees.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And to think that I now got to go to
jail because someone was trying to take my life, that
does anger the living crap out of me. I'll, I'll be
honest with you, John, when --
JOHN: I can understand that.
STEVE: -- I hear that guy by the name of
Troy get up there, I'd like to personally kick his butt
around the lot.
JOHN: Well, but I have no control over that,
whatever he says. Now, you're talking about getting --
STEVE: Let him, let him, let him be -- sit
in a room sometime minding his own business, not doing
anything wrong or illegal and get shot at.

6
JOHN: Uh-huh. I know what it is to be in
that particular situation, as I mentioned.
STEVE: Yeah, at least this other -- I
thought this Conroy was a blood thirsty guy but
listening
discuss.to this new guy, unbelievable.
JOHN: Well, that's, that's not for us to
STEVE: Not for us to talk about the Gestapo
in America, is it?
JOHN: Oh, come on, now you know there's
nothing quite like that.
STEVE: Oh, come -- John, come on, those
 Indiscernible!.
JOHN: No, hey, you're  Indiscernible! I work
for the FBI.
seriouslySTEVE: Just between yourself -- though,
-- and this business about the drugs. God,
was that a mind blower.
that have
ever beenJOHN: Well, you have some folks in there
been dealing with --
STEVE: No, John, nobody --
JOHN: None, none of those guys in there have
dealing?
STEVE: Never in a million years.
JOHN: Never ever, huh?
STEVE: Never ever.

0 C
 '7
JOHN: Are you, are you sure about that?
STEVE: Listen -- yeah, I'm positive. You
can check on every name in this building. You can go
back to -- you can -- I don't care what means you use.
I don't care if it's in -- do anything you want to do.
No one here has ev -- we would kick them out. We've
never been into drugs. Nobody associated with this
group has. Not marijuana, not - we don't even take
aspirins if you'd like to know.
JOHN: You know how glad I am to hear that?
No --
STEVE: Did you hear what I said? I says, we
don't even take aspirin.
JOHN: I know. I heard that. And --
STEVE: And this creep that came on there and
acts like we're making money off it and that --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- I --
JOHN: Well, why don't you come out now and
STEVE:  Indiscernible! the devil.
JOHN: You've got nothing --
STEVE: -- the devil.
JOHN: You've got no problems then. You
know, you can come --
STEVE:  lndiscernible! --

' 8
JOHN: Steve?
STEVE: - to get on the air waves. And what
else is this guy going to make up? It's one thing that
these tabloids and all that make up all this kind of
crap but a guy like that, --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- representing an American agency so
high up in such a position, it's awesome.
JOHN: No, Julie said she took some
narcotics.
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: Julie said she took drugs.
STEVE: Do you know when she came to us, was
about a year ago and --
JOHN: Uh-uh.
STEVE: -- we got her off of whatever she had
gotten into.
JOHN: To your credit, to your credit.
STEVE: Well, of course.
JOHN: Now, look, guy, --
STEVE:  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: -- you know, you're doing all this
sort of thing, come on out. You got no thing to hang
it up.
STEVE: Most of us come from a Seventh Day
Adventist background. Do you know anything about

Q Q
9
Seventh Day Adventist?
JOHN: Where up there in -- where was it, --
STEVE: We don't drink or smoke. We're -- on
the whole, we're vegetarians even, John.
JOHN: Was it Armstrong? So, that was up on
STEVE: We're not talking about narcotics for
crying out loud.
JOHN: Uh-huh .
STEVE: When we took this property back over
when this nut George Roden was here, he had a guy on
this property by the name of -- they tell me Harvey
Wells and a Donnie Harvey or something.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
JOHN: But, apparently, that the FBI had
finally obtained or picked up and I guess he was on
your "Most Wanted" list. That guy, we found -- some of
the guys when we got onto the property found syringes
hid. They immediately called up the Sheriff's
Department. They came out and we never heard another
thing about it. We thought they would say something
about it.
JOHN: Right .
STEVE: Nothing was ever made about it. we
wondered -- Vic Sosell and some of these guys, we heard
from the town people later that they were all involved

 £1/
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10
in it.
JOHN: Hum.
STEVE: And no wonder they went after our
guys to try to lock them up when we're the ones that
went to the Sheriff's Department to say this guy had
dug up a body and --
JOHN: Uh-uh.
STEVE: -- that he should get it for corpse
abuse and --
JOHN: A little necrophilic, huh.
STEVE: That's when we -- that's when we
first started wondering about the justice system. when
none of these guys --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- a lot of them were my friends from
Hawaii -- never in trouble, not even a traffic ticket
and they came over here --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- to try to help some old ladies get
back on their property --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- and end up having to spend 50, 60,
70,000 to go to court. Who's got -- I don't have that
kind of money, John.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Are you going to pay for my lawyer?

ll
_ JOHN: All right, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah .
JOHN: In a situation like this, how do you
feel now that Vernon has got you into this mess? How
do you feel about Vernon and this whole thing?
STEVE: What do you mean how do I feel since
he's gotten me into this mess?
JOHN: This whole thing. He's got the --
he's got you fellows into this situation now where
we're out here and your --
STEVE: Because he's sharing the Bible and
I'm looking at a Bible and, and wanting to learn and to
know what the way out of this situation is. I'm
talking about this world called a cemetery.
JOHN: Okay, but --
STEVE: For anybody that has eyes to see.
JOHN: So, you're not, you're not -- you
don't feel that Vernon got you into the middle of this
thing?
STEVE: No, I don't. I don't see how. What
do you mean, because he offered to show me something
from a book and I came out here to learn? And while
I'm here all of a sudden guns break out and because --
JOHN: Yeah. Why did he have the guns?
STEVE: Huh?
JOHN: Why did he have all this -- what else

Q 0
12
did he have in there besides guns?
STEVE: Because from what he tells me -- now.
I wasn't always around cause I was in California --
but he told me that a guy by the name of Henry McMann
_JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- approached him or through his
daugh -- I think it was a step-daughter or something
like that. I think that's --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- how it began because of music --
said that he was into gun shows or something. And at
first he wasn't interested but then after he heard that
you could make some money on it, well, of course, you
know -- and we don't charge people out here, John.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Well, you don't charge them
but why do you take all of -- why is it when somebody
comes to join your operation, they have to give up all
their money, all --
STEVE: They don't.
JOHN: They don't?
STEVE: I'll give you all of our accounts.
People here, they're not afraid to let you look at
their accounts. I mean all of us have pretty good bank
accounts. I don't know -- where you getting that crap
from? l

them all13
JOHN: Okay. But don't, but don't they give
your -- don't these people give you or the org
-- or David all the money --
STEVE: Never.
JOHN: -- all their money?
STEVE: Never. If there have been people
that have done that, they've worked it out to -- for
some kind of a project together or something like that
but on the whole, --
HQVEI .JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- no one's ever given me any money,
JOHN: But don't you share in the mon --
STEVE: I supported -- see, what we do is no
one has to do anything. We're not into -- it's like
this, if
tractor,
much can
you want
want to,we have -- on this land here, if they need a
everybody will get together and, well, how
you put in, how much can you put in, what do
to put in? Don't put in anything if you don't
you know.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: It's always been like that.
JOHN: All right. Who, who gets the money
then to buy the tractor?
STEVE: Whoever, whoever can do the best
negotiating, usually, whoever's around to go try to

make a deal and, and try to get
you can get a fairly reasonable
JOHN:
STEVE:
thinks they can,
-- a lot --
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVEUh-huh.
That's how it
they can do it
Uh-huh.14
the price down where
buy.
works. Whoever is --
or wants to do it, it's
A lot of people have done it.
Have you ever contributed?
Oh, yeah, like --
How much have you contributed?
You mean money wise?
Yeah.
I don't really have a figure on it
because since I joined this, you know, I've been --
JOHN: Ballpark it.
STEVE: _Well, I have -- I've never even
really -- honestly, I've never sat down and weighed it
out because my interest has been a spiritual interest.
Money has not been a major thing to me. Really, it
hasn't.
JOHN: I see.
STEVE: Like, like when it comes to say --
I've been involved in buying a lot of music equipment
JOHN: Uh-huh.

15
STEVE: -- but we'll get together and, well,
what do we need now to help the music progress?
JOHN: Well, how'd you support yourself then
if you didn't really --
STEVE: If you saw how minuscule we live out
here and I mean how --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- I mean I'm talking about bare,
bare, bare essentials.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I mean you wouldn't want it - I mean
it'd be no wonder at all.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: It's like almost -- it's, it's like
camping indoors as you should have already deduced.
JOHN: That's pretty grim, yeah.
STEVE: Well, is that grim? I don't know.
Some people like living in a log cabin and like living
in the woods. And I'm one of those kind of people that
actually -- I always chose to have a nice little cabin
in, in the hills of Idaho or Hawaii.
JOHN: I thought you didn't like -- well,
then why are you living in there then? I --
STEVE: Because of a book called the Bible,
because I've seen it opened up and I believe it's true,
John.

16
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: I'm sorry. I mean I hate to keep on
getting back to the same thing but it wouldn't take me
long to show you why and you'd say, yea or nay.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Now, I don't want to bore you but --
JOHN: No, no, no, no, not -- Steve, You're
anything but boring. There's one thing about you, I
enjoy listening to you -- listening to what you're
saying. I
STEVE; Well, are you putting - are you
putting a case against me or something?
JOHN: NO.
STEVE: It doesn't matter. I mean whatever
comes to me,  lndiscernible!.
JOHN: Steve, what I'm interested in right
now is getting you and your, and your people out so
there's no problem, nobody gets hurt, nothing is hurt.
How do you feel about all the people you've recruited?
Are they -- and - that are stuck there, how do you
feel about that? '
STEVE: Well, you know, all of them have had,
you know, -- they're very intelligent people. They've
got good minds. They -- right from the beginning have
asked of me -- like when I went to places like London
or wherever else --

3 O
' 17
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I mean there's different places even
in America. When I've sat down to give studies -- if
people -- I always say to them, you know, ask hard
questions. Demand clear concise answers.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: If they're not there, --
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: -- you know, forget it, walk away.
Or even if you do hear and you look at it, take time
off to go sit down and look over it and look over it
again. We've always done this, John, honestly. Even
our adversaries, whoever they might be, I'd be shocked
if they didn't tell the truth on that and at least
bring that point up.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And I mean what Bob Ricks said today
about how we, we -- he goes after the -- I, I forget
all the words he used but made it sound like, you know,
we're, we're your basic Jim Jones cult trying to get
all the mame, the lame, the lamebrain and all the rest.
Not so.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Not so. I mean we're, we're sitting
down with some information that are for people to
really ask good hard questions. It's either there or

18
it's not there.
JOHN: Correct.
STEVE: Either that Bible is full of -- it's
written by a bunch of guys that had pizza late at night
and had bad dreams and, you know, it's another twilight
zone book or -- I mean that's the way it is for me.
Either I'm in it or I'm not, John. If, if the book
isn't true, I'm back to Hawaii and nothing to do with
any religion.
JOHN: I got a question, Steve. I'm just
kinda --
STEVE: Go ahead.
JOHN: -- toying in my own mind. I've seen
some of the folks that have come on out and --
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN: -~ and they sounded very regimented,
perhaps programmed, almost as you would classify them
in the general psychology books in school as inadequate
personalities, very weak people.
STEVE: Some of those that have come out?
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: There are some that have come to us,
that -- I just started laughing because I was just
thinking the way some of these people do communicate
and even from the time I've met them, --
JOHN: Uh-huh.

19
STEVE: -- they are some that are bar types
like -- well, you know, I won't say but there's some
that have been in the world long and had a hard life.
JOHN: Little world weary.
STEVE: Yeah, exac -- I don't know but they
see it. You know, they're still intelligent people.
They might not be able to --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: - articulate what they mean but
they've seen something. They understand what they've
heard and seen.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And
questions.they have had - ask good
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: But when
would ask them what's
give you basic answers butit comes to - like if you
this or what's that, they can
a lot of these people, they
sit and listen and they don't go back to the Bible like
where they're always told to do and learn it for
themselves.
JQHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: So,
question. They can't
it's there, like I do
weary also of readingthen right away someone asks us a
turn and say, well, it's here,
that. But even myself, I get
and studying the book, the Bible.

92i/ 92~/
20
And there are times I'll leave it alone myself. After
a while you forget where this answer is or that answer
but I mean I'm no great master of the book by any means
but --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: ~ I have a grasp to some degree.
JOHN: Oh, I'm sure you do. And just on the
interpretation, I think, that's where it all
up.
STEVE: Well, it's -- see, I  is
interpretation? Let's find out. You ask me
question, I'll tell you - at least I'll try
where the answers -- you read it to me.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: You tell me what you think
JOHN: Got a question.
STEVE: Go ahead.gets hung
it
a
to show
it means.
JOHN: A little break in the action here.
what do you plan to do with these two guys that came in
the last three days?
STEVE: Well, if they're planning on leaving
here, they can be going out anytime they want. If they
want to stay another day or so and ask a few more
questions, --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: - you know, I, I don't mind.

23
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- lastly -~ just, I think it was
last night, by whoever it was.
JOHN: Did these guys have excess -- access
to where you keep your weapons or explosives or
anything like that?
STEVE: I don't even know that we have any.
JOHN: Weapons?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: You don't have any weap -- okay.
Steve, you're, you're wonderful at times.
STEVE: I know it.
JOHN: Oh, God, you enjoyed the hell out of
this. Good grief.
STEVE: No, I mean, come on, don't -- you
know, don't ask -- like you say, don't ask questions
like that.
JOHN: Put you in a bad --
STEVE: In the first place, I don't want to
have anything to do with that and I've --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- chosen to be a part -- I've, I've
stayed here for a reason.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Because there are people that --
look, look at my past. My past has been at - look at

24
my family, my dad, we have never even owned any guns in
my family.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I've, I've been a peace lover all my
life. I love life, even animals.
JOHN: well, you know,  Indiscernible!.
STEVE: The only kind of shooting I've ever
done is with a, a Cannon A-1 still camera, --
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: -- a 35 millimeter camera. That's
the kind --
JOHN: That's great.
STEVE: - of shooting I've done. And I like
nature. I've always had a great deep appreciation of
it and -- of all forms of life. So, when you ask me
questions like that, that has nothing to do with me.
I'm here because people are here that I know that were
shot at and got involved in this thing and now they're
afraid to get out. They don't --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- understand what's going on. And I
feel responsibility and at times, yeah, for myself, I'd
like to just walk out and say, okay, here I am.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: But at the same time, I, I'd feel
like a bad coward, that I've turned my back on other

v 2 5
individuals. I don't see that it was right. I, I
couldn't live with myself, John.
JOHN: Steve, you wouldn't turn your back on
anybody. You would come on out, you'd bring them out,
and they would be thankful. You know why they'd be
thankful? Because they would be safe. And this is
what it's all about. safety, isn't it?
STEVE: Well, I sure hope so. I~hope you're
right. I sure --
JOHN: Right. So, now, you have the -- you
have the intestinal fortitude, you have the courage to
walk out if you want to. You do. Look, --
STEVE: Yes, but I don't -- I see myself in a
better role trying to still talk to these people and
somehow, I don't know why, but I still think there's
gotta be an avenue or a way that I'm going to be able
to -- I don't know, I'm waiting myself. I'm thinking
about it all the time. How am I going to be able to
convince but -- and I thought I was doing pretty good
last weekend. I really did. That's why I had such
great -- I was actually angry when that happened with
these commanders because I thought it was snowballing.
I really did. And when that came about, it almost --
it was so frustrating you just want to lay down and
just close your eyes and sleep.
JOHN: Yeah, we're trying to keep a lid on

26
this thing and I think you're trying to do the same
thing.
STEVE: I am but, you know, how do you --
these people here, I keep on saying one thing, and then
right away it's countered by certain actions that
happen around here and --
JOHN: Like what? I'm trying to figure out
what --
STEVE: Well, you know, I mean like always --
I mean the destruction thing now is becoming common but
when it first started happening, more and more
especially over the last week -- every time we were
making some moves to send people out, the telephone
lines, that, these nutty sounds that are being played
outside right now. That happened when we had just
moved seven people out when they started putting the
weird sounds on, John.
JOHN: Well, what had happened on that? Did
-- were you - they, they came out of their own
volition, didn't they?
STEVE: Oh, they always do but, you know, --
JOHN: So, but you're sending them out. Now,
I'm kind of getting the impression that if you --
something like you're saying, here is, that you're
basically controlling who comes in and comes out.
STEVE: No, no. What happened with -- like

O O
27
say some of those that went out. Remember when -- if
you were listening to the tapes or the conversation
with John Cox and David, --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- when, when this whole thing
happened that Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, there were
people here. See, we -- we're not into drinking and so
forth.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And even though there's some of that
on the property, -- some brought it in and so forth, it
was put away -~ when that happened, people got afraid
and so forth and there's some that have inclinations
because like you said, not everybody's the same. But
some grabbed some of these bottles and started drinking
it. And we --
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: - don't do that.
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: And for that reason, David and I said
and I agreed with him, that if these people here, if
they're going to put their faith in a bottle or
whatever and so forth, -
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- well, that -- let them go out
there and do it and take care of what -- and see if

I O
 2 8
they have any faith in God and belief in God's word.
So, we, we suggested - _
JOHN: They're the ones you sent out, right?
STEVE: Well, you know, we suggested very
highly. We think it be for your, for your - well, it
was even suggested to me. I talked about it with every
one of these people.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: But, you know, that's not the only
reason. I mean the other rea - but that has been a, a
reason for a number of these people but for others to
- some saw --
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: - that it'd be better for them to
get out there anyway. It's -~ you know, they'd, they'd
rather make the move. So, I encouraged those. Anytime
someone says --
JOHN: Steve, you are doing the right thing.
That's -- now you're thinking along the right
direction.
STEVE: Well, look,  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: You're working with us and you're
getting this thing moving.
STEVE: Yeah, but in the beginning it was
easier because someone would come up with something and
I, I -- of course, you know, I would note it. And if

they even show a29
sign they want to go out, I, I'm going
to encourage them to do it.
JOHN:So, the peo -- the only people allowed
to stay are the people that do what you want, is that
correct?
STEVE :
are staying right now are
really concerned. I mean
thing with Livingston was
you know, it happened, ofNo, not at all. The, the ones that
the -- they're, they're
-- I'm telling you, that
a bad deal, it was. I mean,
course, but that's the thing
that they keep on throwing up to me now. When I --
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:Uh-huh.
-- when I was talking to --
Yeah. I don't know anything about
this thing -- Livingston. I don't want to --
STEVE: I won't, I won't get into it either
but I'm just saying --
JOHN:
STEVE:
hard because --
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
because I reallyOkay.
-- it was -~ you know, for me it was
Yeah. I'm just --
-- I had talked to  Indiscernible! --
Yeah.
-- which is his wife and --
Well, let's not really get into it
don't know that much --

-
3 0
STEVE: I know but I was going to still try
to get -- see if they wanted to go out but now they're,
they're not giving me the time of day.
JOHN: No.
STEVE: That's what I'm saying.
JOHN: Really, I'm still concerned about your
two guys that are in there. You know, these are two
unknowns that you got wandering through.
STEVE: Those guys that do watch the very
things you asked of me. They -- no such thing would
ever be allowed. I mean these people -- now, remember,
JOHN: Well, these are the two guys that just
came in right now?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN:' You gotta watch those guys.
STEVE: Well, that's happening.
JOHN: There's going to be problems for you
STEVE: Believe me, that's happening.
JOHN: -> and, more importantly, problems for
us.
STEVE: Someone's awake that is constantly
watching them, by the way.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: And when it comes to -- again, when

I
 |
 31
it comes to guns and all that kind of thing, --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- we like your guys on the outside.
And even though they make the kind of threats they do
and it gets annoying at times because no one that's
ever pointed a gun or even held a gun in a window, --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- that -- that's made people made.
I mean that's never happened even and --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- one of these -- well, like one day
Byron came up and I stepped right out. I'm not armed.
I stepped out on the porch.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I would have walked over to him. I
didn't see him but --
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: -- I talked with him and then later
on a guy by the name of Tom, he said, Steve? And I
said, yes. And I said, whom am I speaking with? He
said, Tom. Well, the guy sounded very polite and
pleasant.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: So, I mean.
JOHN: No, they -- we try to --
STEVE: Well, I'm --

O O
32
JOHN: We're trying to do the right thing
here.
STEVE: Well, John, I, I say, I appreciate
that and I, I like people. I can't -- you know, I
would like to have walked right around, grabbed the
man's hand and shaken it and say, --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- hey, I like you. It's too bad
what's happened. It looks like I gotta go through
something now but I guess those are the breaks or
whatever. But, you know, I mean, still, I'm still
trying to have a good outlook about it. It -- at times
it's not easy but it is a freaky situation that, that
we got here. "
JOHN: Uh~huh. Okay. Steve, what are we
going to do now? Now, we, we've talked about this.
We've --
STEVE: What time is it anyway? Man, I'll
tell you the truth, I'm getting a pretty good headache
here.
JOHN: It's about - am I giving you a
headache? Now, that's a hell of a thing to say.
STEVE: Well, no, I got up -- I got up pretty
early this morning.
JOHN: You're hurting my feelings. Come on,
Steve.

33
STEVE: No, I've -- it's the hours that I'm
keeping.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I average anyway between two and
about four hours at the most.
off the phone? You gonna
more when
little
You --
talked
people
things
enough
anyway,JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
I getWhat are you going to do if you get
walk around and --
No, No.
-- check with everybody or what?
Oh, not at all. I'm going to bed.
Well, how is --
Otherwise I won't - I know I can do
up in the morning, I'm -- I have had a
sleep. If I'm bright, I'm alert, I'm awake.
I talked
with Dick
JOHN:with you. I talked with Linda. I
Uh-huh.
STEVE: And Henry. I mean that's a lot of
today. And in the process, you know, some
were suggested and  Indiscernible! --
JOHN: You can't say we haven't given you
options on this.
STEVE: I'm losing my voice right now but,
WE -
JOHN: You're doing a hell of a job, Steve.
STEVE: Well, that's about -- you know,

O O
34
talking with an attorney, maybe meeting with one of you
guys and the attorney and so forth. It was also
mentioned about -- what else was it -
JOHN: What do you consider the most
important, Steve?
STEVE: Do I, what?
JOHN: What do you consider the most --
STEVE: No, someone was just -- yeah, listen
to this. Here comes the rooster. It must be -- see,
now hear him on the phone?
JOHN: I hear the rooster.
STEVE: It's already 5:00, 6:00 in the
morning, apparently.
JOHN: What do you consider the most
important suggestion that we made today?
STEVE: Let's see. There was actually two of
them. For me, it was mentioned about meeting with the
attorney that my sister hired. '
N JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And the other thing - something else
that I was quite interested in. Oh, the theologian
thing. Yeah, talking with someone from Baylor or -- it
doesn't matter what university. Someone that has a
good sharp mind that, that is well versed.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Okay.
STEVE: And I mean if they really had

' 3 5
something, anything at all, I would take that and say,
hey, look, listen to this. I mean that would - you
want to see these people come out?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Whether you believe me or not,
whether you believe --
JOHN: No, I believe you.
STEVE: No, I'm going --
JOHN: I'm trying to work with you. And the
big thing here is trust and believing in one another.
STEVE: These people came from all over the
United States to hear about what this guy's got. So,
-- I mean there's got to be scholars out there that can
at least attempt to look at this or look at that.
JOHN: Okay. You've got something
interesting there, sort of caught my attention.
STEVE: What's that?
JOHN: This business about sitting down and
talking with some scholars, you're talking about that?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Now, what would you like to do on
that?
STEVE: I don't know. If you -- what I'd
like to do is -- David, even himself, had an interest
to that. I'd do it myself or him or whatever but, you
know, it, it's he that has put out the challenge about

1
36
the seals.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And what I like about it, if these
guys can do it, well, then they're collecting money off
of human beings that they shouldn't be doing in the
first place or if he's a fraud and a phony, well, they
should have what ~ their many years of expertise,
education, degrees, should be able to at least show or
raise questions about his ability or inability.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I mean I would imag -- they should be
able to do that. Man, I've taken classes from some
doctors that were pretty --
JOI-IN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- sharp.
JOHN: Right. I'm sure you have.
STEVE: And these guys have come up with some
pretty interesting responses to certain chapters of the
Bible. And I, I don't see why that shouldn't be
happening right now.
JOHN: Uh-huh. All right. Where would you
like to do something like this?
STEVE: Where?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Well, I don't know. What - my --
I've not really given it a lot of thought, to be honest

37
with you. I mean I thou -- I don't know what would
even be possible because --
JOHN: You know, --
STEVE: Well, let me just say you guys have
limited us so much that it's almost like I'd even be
almost afraid to mention anything.
JOHN: Well, you're talking -- we're talking
about it now and I'm -- I personally think you gotta --
you might be on to something 'cause obviously you're
well based in the Bible and all this other business.
And sitting around and talking with some biblical
scholars might be a way to do it. What --
STEVE: Really, it would be awesome. I'm
telling you, if you want -- I'm telling you of
everything, any possibility, I am telling you a fact
that if anybody and -- I -- see, now, David has talked
to a lot of people but there are one heck of a lot of
scholars out there he's never even touched, heard of.
There are guys that -- I mean I have met -- when I went
to school years ago, there was, there was a Dr. -- oh,
what's the man's name? So long ago already --
_ JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- but he -- it's like a living -- he
was a living legend because he's so, he's so heavy into
archeology, religion. He is Jewish by birth. He
became a Presbyterian.

38
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: What's the guy's name? He's, he's,
he's a contributing editor to this archeological -~ I
think a review. It's some -- I believe it's a
quarterly, if I remember right.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: David Noel Freedman I believe his
name is.
JOHN: Okay. Do you think both you and David
would want to sit down and -- across the table from
some of these --
STEVE: Oh, I'd love to. I'd love to.
JOHN: What about David, would he like to do
some --
STEVE: Oh, definitely. Most definitely.
JOHN: Okay. In a section like -- situation
like that, if we could set something up. What would
you think if you guys came on out, sat down and
discussed all this? Perhaps we could even get, what,
T.V. cameras on it or something like that, CNN.
STEVE: Are you talking about giving up and
doing it?
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Come walking out of the building,
then sit down and do it?
JOHN: Absolutely, that's it.

3 9
STEVE: But what if, what if these guys can't
answer, he can show the seals and so forth, then --
JOHN: I'm not -- yeah, this is the God game
and I'm not heavy into that. So, --
STBVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- that's just something you have to
talk with your biblical scholars.
STEVE: Right .
JOHN: So, this is something that you brought
up -
STEVE:  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: Wait a minute. Steve, you brought
this up and it's --
STEVE: No, I know, but why -- I was thinking
more on the lines of a dialogue over the phone that
could be either recorded or ~- 
JOHN: Nah, that won't work. It hasn't --
STEVE: Why wouldn't it?
JOHN: -~ got any sex appeal. Doesn't have
-- you want something where CNN can get the television
cameras out there.
STEVE: I don't, I don't even really - David
doesn't even care about the press and all that that
way.
JOHN: He doesn't care about the press but he
cares about reaching people. There are a lot of people

O O
40
out there that want to get your message.
STEVE: But what, what -- but, John, what you
don't understand, if the Bible is true and -- the way
we see it, and it's clear, there's a plan that's so
contrary to human planning and devising in the final
days, it's out of the common order of things. It is.
JOHN: Well, you know, that's, that's one
thing that's, that's out there.
STEVE: I mean this is why -- this is why ~-
JOHN: Let's talk about the possibility of -~
STEVE: Wait, wait. But this is why Bob
Ricks and others have had it wrong. David does not
need any kind of infamy or notoriety. He doesn't need
that. That's why --
JOHN: You're abso -- you're absolutely
right, he doesn't need it but there are a lot of people
out here that do. And they need him. And whether he's
willing to recognize it or come to grips with that
reality, there are a lot of folks out there that need
him. They need his message and they need your message.
STEVE: well, you --
JOHN: And they're not going to be able to
get it -~
STEVE: I know you don't buy that.
JOHN: -- by such a dingy telephone call.
STEVE: You can't wait to see this kook

41
locked up in the, in the  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: Hardly. Hardly. You're light years
away from being anything like that. You've got your
act together. You're making sense as far as when you
talk.
STEVE: I know you -- I know you guys want to
resolve this thing, get us - go through the pr0¢esS,
put us away and some of us, whatever, but I know that.
JOHN: No. Look, Steve, --
STEVE: Until you get on with your life,
John,  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: -- I'm trying to do what's best for
you and it's best for us. Don't you want to get --
don't you want to get this thing behind you?
STEVE: Yeah, I'd like to get it before me.
JOHN: All right. It's before -- this is the
opportunity for you. But I think I would, I would talk
this over with David --
STEVE: Yeah,  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: -- about the idea of the situation you
brought up, the biblical encounter on television. And
come on out and we can guarantee CNN will cover this
type of think.
STEVE: I know.
JOHN: Think about that one.
STEVE: We'll, we'll definitely talk about

42
it.
JOHN: Absolutely. There's some potential
there. '
STEVE:  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: And I like your idea on that. That,
that is outstanding.
STEVE: What idea is that, John? The words
that you put in my mouth or words that you came up with
or --
JOHN: No, no, no, this is something that you
were about to tell me.
STEVE: What's that now? You tell me. I'm
interested in sitting on a phone and dialogue with some
scholars on the phone and that would not be hard to
have a conference call with - recorded.
JOHN: N0.
STEVE: I don't like the idea of coming out.
I don't think -- I don't, I don't know. He may do it.
And if he does, I probably will then, too. I -- I'll
pass it by him. But don't take it like that so it's
going to happen because I'm listening.
JOHN: No. I, I just want you to keep your
mind open to all these potentials.
STEVE: Oh, that I will do, positively.
JOHN: We're giving you these various
opportunities. Remember, you're basically men of God,

43
COIIECC?
STEVE: I would hope so.
JOHN: All right. As a result, we're giving
you the opportunity to take your message to a wider
plateau, to a level far more than you could ever have
reached doing what you're doing now.
that
one of us.
there who
then.
It's
this
comeSTEVE: But that, but that -- don't -- leave
out of it because that doesn't matter to either
Honestly, John.
JOHN: It doesn't matter to you but it --
STEVE: No, no.
JOHN: -- matters to a lot of people out
want to hear what this is all about.
STEVE: Okay. That's between you and them
If they want to -- it, it doesn't matter to us.
for these -- remember now, the reason I'm doing
is for these people inside. If you want them to
out, if there's a --
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: -- scholar that can show something,
anything, just - I mean, come on, there's people that
spend their life with that book, sincere men that have
got more than two, three doctor degrees. I mean that's
no -- that's an awesome ability.
JOHN: I can understand that.
STEVE: And, you know, you, you know -- must

. /
I "O
44
know yourself there's got to be men out there that have
it basically memorized also that can -- let's talk
about the Jesuits that spend years --
JOHN: Ah, the Jessees, yes, I know them
well.
STEVE: Yeah, they spend years of education.
There should be --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- some -- they're into debating,
rationalization, they're into really -- there's got to
be some of those guys. I mean a lot of them are at
very high levels.
JOHN: These guys are probably already do
that. By the way, speaking --
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN: -- of your people that you got in
there, now, we need, we need a --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- positive sign from these guys. We
haven't heard anything from anybody else in there. The
-- occasionally, you'll bring somebody out but how
about everybody else? what can you do for us to make
sure that everybody else is okay in there?
STEVE: Well, I don't know. What do ya got?
What do you want us --
JOHN: How about sending them all on out?

45
That would be the obviou -~ the obvious thing would be
send them all out.
STEVE: They won't -- I can tell them, okay,
you guys, I want you to get out to where -- this is it,
today you've got to get -- they're not going to do it,
John. They're not going to ~- if I were a bigger guy
JOHN: Can you tell me why?
STEVE: Hey, if I was six five and knew bla-
had a tenth degree black belt, then I think I might be
able to get some people out of here.
JOHN: I think that you're, you're very
gifted. You have a tendency to be able to communicate
very well. Consequently, you can communicate to them
the best thing in their interest is to come out.
STEVE: Oh, I -- definitely talk to them
about it frequently.
JOHN: You know, it's not going to get any
better in there. The food is not going to be as great.
Everything you're -- sanitary conditions are going --
STEVE: This is true. You've got a point
there. Definitely is going to go from bad to worse, no
question.
JOHN: Uh-huh and I just hope that just --
oh, well. I've got another thing I want to talk with
you about. If you talk to your attorney and he tells

you to come out, would you do it on your own even if
David doesn't want you to come
STEVE: I don't know.out?
Maybe -- it depends
upon what he can tell me about this kind of a
situation. I'd be more apt to believe or hear what
he's got to say, especially if he's gone through
similar things like it or even something close to it.
I definitely hope I get ahold of someone that really
knows the Constitution, that's really into the laws of
the land.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Yeah. I think you can
probably get -- the fellow that's --
STEVE: Maybe I better - Vic Sosell got out
of this thing. Maybe I better get ahold of him, huh?
JOHN: Well, that's your choice.
STEVE: I'm only kidding.
JOHN: I got --
STEVE: I definitely wouldn't want a guy
that's done even -- remotely associated to drugs.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Yeah.
STEVE: Which reminds me again, just, just
let Bob Ricks know for tomorrow's press conference that
I was extremely unhappy that a guy got on there like
this guy did and -- I mean that, that was bad. And I,
I -- you and I without lying and honesty, --
JOHN: Uh-huh.

D O
4'7
STEVE: -- I know why it came about, so the
National Guard could be used. They can -
JOHN: The National Guard isn't used.
STEVE: Well, no, I mean Ann Richards -- I
heard the story. Apparently, for her to sign off or to
allow the National Guard to any degree even to be used,
drugs would have to be involved from what I understand.
_ JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And I -- and obvious, even though
this group is oriented from Seventh Day Adventism all
the way through, drugs have never, ever, ever been a
part of this group, never have been. And because you
say that this one girl here that came to us that had a
problem when she got here, -~
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I mean and this whole group then is
because we ~ unbelievable, unbelievable.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I don't even know -- when I heard
about this methamphetamine, I don't even know what one
looks like. I don't even know what it is.
JOHN: Right, I can understand that.
STEVE: I mean good grief.
JOHN: I don't ~- yeah, I don't really want
to discuss this. This --
STEVE: But is -- what a terrible insult,

48
though, come on.
JOHN: Well, a lot of people get hurt on
these type of things.
STEVE: Isn't it the truth? That's why
people here don't see that -~
when
John.
they
Out,
Troy
U188!!JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: - they're going to get a fair shake
that - even more crimes are being manufactured,
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Tell, tell your commanders, whoever
might be, that if they don't want anybody to come
tell some -- tell them just to get a guy like this
on there saying more things like that.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: My job will be totally worth -- I
whatever I've done so far, I'm going to tell you
for a fact I'll never be able to do anything else.
Today the reaction was so bad in here. It was so bad.
JOHN: Yeah. How is everybody hanging in
there?
lessSTEVE: Not, not -- they're, they're having
and less trust in you people.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I'll tell you the honest truth, they
really are.

49
JOHN: Well, that's because -
STEVE: That, that press conference, it was a
bad thing. It was a bad thing.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Are you getting most of your
T.V. still in there or is this -- are you hearing this
on radio or what?
STEVE: Well, we have -- actually, we have -~
we can and have both. So, --
JOHN: Okay. Hey, by the way, can you come
out tomorrow morning and meet with us to discuss some
issues? Remember you did that with Byron, the same
type of a situation.
STEVE: You all are going to grab me and pull
me into a Bradley  Indiscernible! are you?
JOHN: No, nothing like that. No, no,
nothing like that.
STEVE: Will you give me your word and all
that?
JOHN: I've given you - as an officer and a
gentleman.
STEVE: If that ever happened, of course,
these people had -- I mean they'd be all over. I hope
you know that.
JOHN: Absolutely, I'm aware of that.
STEVE: Okay. It's a - yeah, it's more than
possible then.

O I
SO
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: It depends upon who I would be
talking to and this time, whoever it is, I'm going to
be in the -- we're going to walk away from the Bradley
to where we're both in the open, both of us standing
right out in the open where the Bradleys are a ways
away. ,
JOHN: Okay. What we'll do, tomorrow morning
we get you on the phone and then we'll work out the
details of that.
STEVE: And if it's one of you negotiators, I
would appreciate it all the more, yourself. There's a
lot of you guys I like.
JOHN: Yeah. I can't make any commitments on
this right now but this ~-
STEVE: I would, I would -- listen, honestly,
I would guarantee -- I mean nothing would happen to you
guys, nothing would.
JOHN: Uh-hum, that's a comfort.
STEVE: You, you might, you might have to
take all the -- you might want to take all the
precautions and all this and that but I mean if I'm
standing out there, I'm -- I literally, I'll be out
there with unarmed. I always go out that way. That's
the way I am anyhow.
JOHN : Uh-huh .

51
STEVE: So, I mean I -- definitely I'm not
bothered to go out there and meet with you and spend
time.
JOHN: You know, sit down and chat and we'll
solve a few problems. Well, what -- we can't make any
commitments about --
STEVE: I would, I would -- I will --
JOHN: Steve, Steve --
STEVE: Well, let me just say this --
JOHN: We can't make any commitments about
this --
STEVE: Okay, that's fine. That's great.
JOHN: -- but we just want to let -- give us
the possibility to see what's going to happen on this.
STEVE: Well, just so you know -- I'll tell
you what kind of fortitude I do have, though. If
anybody ever pulled a gun on me when I was out there,
though, if that happened, I'd turn around and let you
shoot me in the back.
JOHN: Oh, cripe, don't be dramatic, Steve.
Come on.
STEVE: Well, I'm not. Well, I'm just
saying, I just --
JOHN: Good God.
STEVE: -- you know,  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: We're too old for all this.

52
STEVE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, now,
wait, let's, let's talk about the dramatics of the last
time Wayne Martin and I walked out there, John. When
-- and we told there, there would be no weapons and the
where -- Byron stood and where Jack Harwell stood and
that's -4
JOHN: Uhhuh.W
STEVE: -- the two
and jumpy, the, the way they
jackets or whatever you want
proof -- I mean right around
groin and I mean, seriously,guys that were so fidgety
had their total flack
- not jackets but bullet
the neck down passed the
JOHN: well, they were a - they were a
little concerned, I guess.
STEVE: To let -- yeah, look at
how far we were out there where we stood,
like
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- we promised, like we
JOHN: Okay. What we'd like to
then, I -- again, we're just
stages of this, was have youboth of us,
nothing on us
said.
do tomorrow,
sort of in the beginning
shoot your video first,
bring your video out, give us the video and then we'd
like to sit down and chat a little bit.
STEVE: Where would we sit out and chat ~-
JOHN: Stand or whatever they do out there.

4
53
STEVE: If, if they got a couple of chairs
and a table, I don't mind.
JOHN: Nah, I, I don't -- we'll, we'll work
that out tomorrow. .
STEVE: All right. But I mean I'm -- it's
not a sure thing. It depends upon who it's going to be
and this time, it's not going to be so much like la --
I'll, I'll be honest with you, I didn't really
it the last time. The weather conditions then,
obviously, were not the best.care for
JOHN: No, we have no condition -- not
control over the weather.
STEVE: No, no, I know but because Byron --
JOHN: That's life.
STEVE: -- wanted so badly to do it,
decided to show my good faith, good will, and
intentions and I mean --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- it was definitely no fun,
JOHN: No. Situations like that can
little strained.
STEVE:. I wanted to meet --
JOHN: Well, we're try to make it as
as possible tomorrow.
STEVE: I wanted to meet John Dolan.
I -- I had a --I
though.
be a
painless
I mean

 
 
 
 54
JOHN: Oh, John Dolan, yeah.
STEVE: I had a great appreciation for the
man --
JOHN: Unfortunately, Mr. Dolan has returned
STEVE: I know -- he had -- he's what?
JOHN: He has ret -- gone back to from where
he came.
STEVE: Yeah, I know and even while, while he
was still around, for some reason between yourselves
collectively or the commanders, they didn't want him to
continue on the phone with me. I don't understand why
not unless it was his own choice, whatever. But I mean
I was quite surprised. He said he'd be around longer
and he never came back to the phone as he said he
would.
JOHN: No, there's some things that come up
that he has no control of.
STEVE: I don't -- I would be curious one day
to see how you people work, in that Linda's on the
phone for just a moment and then all of a sudden I, I
accidentally clicked it off myself and on you come.
Dick never comes. I don't know what's going on over
there but only you guys would know. Maybe it's a new,
a new approach, fresh minds.
JOHN: Oh, I don't know about that. We just1

it
v
@-
uI
S5
have a way of handling things.
STEVE
right now I can
JOHN:
full of pep and
STEVE
JOHN:
very well. Now
some real solidI'm  Indiscernible! I'm so worn out
hardly speak.
Well, you sound like you're, you're
vinegar there.
Oh, John, --
You've been, you've been doing very,
this is the time you've have to make
decisions.
STEVE: Hey, hey, I was just going to go turn
in. Listen to this.
 Sounds like seagulls in background!.
JOHN:
noise.Hey, that's a great noise, great
STEVE: I mean now how do I get a good
night's sleep?
and talk to you
some -- I don't
JOHN:And now you guys want me to come out
tomorrow with some squawking bird or
know what it is --
I'l1 tell you what, we will guarantee
you we won't have a squawking bird tomorrow.
STEVE: Well, maybe I will.
JOHN: Yeah. You know -- well, I'm sure
you're going to do fine tomorrow. You got to --
STEVE: I tell you what, why don't you bring
me a good pair of earphones or something or ear plugs.
JOHN:Yeah, we'll have to see what happens

92 9256
on that one but, no, you're ~- there are some things
that you have to think about. We've given you a lot to
think about in the last few -- a lot since this thing
began.
STEVE: You know, I'm sitting up here all
night and talking. I'm, I'm showing you -- I mean
everybody else chooses to go to bed.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I'm sitting up here talking till I'm
hoarse and then I'm talking to these people all day.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Well, you have sort of a gift
for that type of thing.
STEVE: Oh,  Indiscernible! --
JOHN: It makes things happen. You do have a
definite way, very convincing, very nice manner. And
you have very definite leadership possibilities and
capabilities.
STEVE: Well, it, it would do me good in, in
a cell for 20 years, wouldn't it?
JOHN: Well, I don't know about things like
that. H
STEVE: I'm not -- I'm a writer so I can
write a letter once every two months, I suppose, to
somebody out there. r
JOHN: Well, you know, these are things
you're going to have to discuss with your lawyer. And

O 5
57
the main thing is safety for everybody involved and 
this is what I'm hoping that you have ~-
STEVE: I mean what --
JOHN: -- foremost in your mind.
STEVE: John, what's, what's worse, being
safe in jail with Bubba --
JOHN: Bubba, please.
STEVE: Or being in here and just spending
the last few days here with these squawking birds on
the outside all night. I don't know.
JOHN: You know, you're very eloquent and you
make a good case. Now, the situation, when you get
ahold of your attorneys, you never know what's going to
happen.
STEVE: How am I -- how would we ever get a
fair shake with a jury when everybody in this country
has heard about, you know, Newsweek, Time, newspapers,
press, the bizarrity of it all. I mean what a -- what
92
jury would ever be found that would be unpartial to
something like that or impartial?
JOHN: Well, there -- those things have been
known to happen?
STEVE: Do we find anybody in Timbuktu or --
JOHN: Well, in one way or another, it's
probably going to be over fairly soon and I think we're
going to find it -- well, look at -- let's take -- look

58
at the more celebrated cases around the country?
STEVE: Maybe we can get -- maybe we can get
some ATP agents sitting on the jury, huh?
JOHN: Oh, come on, now, Steve. No, but just
think about it. Think --
STEVE:  lndiscernible!
JOHN: Steve, think of some of the more
celebrated cases around the country.
STEVE: I don't know to many because I've
never been into
thing, if, if I listen to what's
it's definitely an open and shut
murderers here and we definitely
JOHN: Well, --
STEVE: -- want to see
dead and --the law like that but I'll tell you one
his name, David Troy,
case. Man, we're all
everybody in the world
JOHN: This is why you've got those high
priced lawyers ready to come running in.
' STEVE: Yeah. Who's going to pay for them?
My sister isn't --
JOHN: Well, there's pro bono, though.
STEVE: -- extremely rich either. So,
know, what a burden, a debt that
unbelievable. What a nightmare,you
is. Man, it's
huh.
JOHN: Well, it's a very unpleasant
situation.

Q C
S 5 9
STEVE: Hey, -- yeah, John, --
JOHN: That's for sure.
STEVE: -- you ought to see my motorcycle out
there. They --
JOHN: What kind of a motorcycle do you have?
STEVE: What kind did I have?
JOHN: Oh, it's reduced to that now?
STEVE: They planted it. I believe it was
yesterday. I, I think I last saw a handlebar sticking
out of the ground.
JOHN: Oh, no, no.
STEVE: It was actually --
JOHN: some guys just can't catch a break.
STEVE: It was actually a pretty nice clean
bike. I only used it once in a while to get up in the
mountains of California.
JOHN: whereabouts in California?
STEVE: Over by Mount Baldie, in that area,
just north --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- Of --
JOHN: Wrightatown, up around that way?
STEVE: Yeah, Mt. Clair, --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- right in there, Claremont.
JOHN: Yeah. Let's see, you lived in La

Verne for a while?
STEVE :
what I understand since they even raided that place and
found two women there. I hope they didn't -- weren't
too afraid of them.
JOHN: No, I'm not sure what that's all
about.
STEVE:
JOHN:
out there, especially around Loma Linda.
STEVE:
all. I don't know about -- I don't really like that
area, Loma Linda
wasn't bad.
JOHN:
University -- what university --
STEVE :
many around --
_ JOHN:
STEVE :
and --
JOHN:
STEVE:
of them.
JOHN :
one with the arm60
Yeah, in infamous La Verne now from
But, anyway, --
Yeah, that -- it's kind of a nice area
It really is. I mean it's not bad at
or St. Bernardino but where I was
Yeah. That where the, the --
A lot of universities. There's so
Roger -- not --
Yeah, exactly, Roger Moden, Claremont
Who's the one the --
-- South Poli. I know there's loads
Yeah, I know, but I'm thinking of the
-- who is it? The Ambassador College,

61
that was it.
STEVE: Yeah, I'm -- yeah, I've heard of it,
Ambassador College. Is that, is that a religious
school?
JOHN: Yes, it is.
STEVE: Oh, yeah, it's -- I know who you
mean. It's Armstrong --
JOHN: That's correct.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: A little tiff there but --
STEVE: I've never seen it. I just am aware
of it just because of comparative religious studies.
JOHN: Right. Yeah, that sort of went on
there.
STEVE: And, of course, because they're close
to being like the Seventh Day Adventist. So, --
JOHN: Uh-huh. No, they're --
STEVE: So, you know a little bit about that
sort of thing, then?
JOHN: Yeah, I know a little something about
that area. I had some time out there. '
STEVE: Where did you say you were from?
JOHN: Initially, well, I had 20 years in St.
Anna.
STEVE: Oh, really.
JOHN: Uh-huh.

62
STEVE: Yeah. In fact, I was out there not
too long ago.
JOHN: Oh, really? Where --
STEVE: Yeah, it was about a month and a half
ago, I think. Yeah, about a month and a half ago, just
before all this happened.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Why didn't I stay out there?
JOHN: Well, you know, crazy California. You
need something nice and sane like Waco.
STEVE: I, I really -- I should have -- I
really should have stayed out there in crazy
California.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Hey, tomorrow when --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- you come on out with the video, are
you going to take some people out with you?
STEVE: Who?
JOHN: Oh, I don't know.
STEVE: I don't know who.
JOHN: Why don't you pick some. Just to show
-- not only do you have the video but you have them
with you at the, you know.
STEVE: John, I can go right up to somebody
and say, hey, I pick you. I want you to come out
today. You've got to go out.

I, I
with
good
 EndJOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: You have to. I'll, I'll try it but
really don't think --
JOHN: Well, just come on out and mosey out
you and hang out and show that they're in pretty
shape and everything is going --
of Tape #176!

TF9' Q
/77

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #177
3/28/93
12:12 a.m. - 1:08 A.M.1

O   C
2
 tape 177!
STEVE: Regardless of what I do, I'll even
give you their names. You can talk to them. And
you'll see that they've come up with their own dec --
they don't care what I -- you know, ought to tell you
something.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: There's been some -- there's been
times where I've gotten mad at people in this group
like. I mean any time you're in close proximity to
anybody for a long period of time --
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: - you know, everybody is individuals
and they have their own ideas about things. Well, I've
- there's been times where I felt like throwing my
hands up in the air and just walking away. And you
think they'd follow me out? No way. I'm -- I already
know. I'm telling you people.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Well, you just can't tell him
or try to convince them this is their best interest --
STEVE: I've, I've done that.
JOHN: -- for the entire group as a whole?
STEVE: Yeah, I can say -- I can say that but
they wouldn't -- who would -- look, now, John, who
would put up with this, this place out here, right?
JOHN: Uh-huh.

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STEVE: There you go again, you're talking to
somebody else but come back to me for a second.
JOHN:
to the phone.I'm here, I'm here, my ears are glued
STEVE: I, I mean I -- it's -- you've 903 --
JOHN: What I want you to do is make a
decision for yourself to come out. You can do that.
STEVE: well, sure I can but don't you
remember I told you I also have convictions.
the right
important
at a time
the right
that. I reallyJOHN:
STEVE
thing
thing
JOHN:
STEVE
thing
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVEUhhuh.
? I've got to make sure that I'm doing
eternally because that's the most
to me.
One thing at a time, Steve, one thing
I've got to make sure that I'm doing
even for myself. I really do. I, I --
Uh-huh.
-- I realize you don't understand
do.
No, I understand it, you know.
You've never walked in my shoes, you
know. You don't have my experience. You haven't seen
the world from my perspective.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: But I really don't think that you'd

4
see it as being so out of the ordinary, if you ever had
the opportunity to sit down with me, I really don't.
JOHN: Okay. But you've got to think about
this a little bit harder, guy, because --
STEVE: Oh, I -- believe me -- hey --
JOHN: -- you know, -- no, you're not a
stupid man. You realize what's out there, you realize
what's inside.
STEVE:  Indiscernible! -- John, -- I, I --
JOHN: Don't get cold feet.
STEVE: No, look it, I'm thinking about it
morning, noon and -- how can I help but not, man?
Don't you think I've -- that I don't have butterflies
and --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- not wondering about this,
wondering about -- of course I do.
JOHN: Steve --
STEVE:  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: -- grab unto this thought, okay?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Just like you -- one way or another
you're eventually going to be coming out.
STEVE: Truly. I agree with you, I do.
JOHN: And -- so, consequently, let's do,
let's do it the easiest way possible for all concerned,

especially for you and your people in there. This5
ain't going to go away.
JOHN: I know it's not. No one here has ever
said that it would. In fact, they've all planned on
coming out. They just -- they want to make sure about
one thing and that's the spiritual aspect. This whole
thing that -- the reason why they came here, John. I
mean I wished there wasn't -- if it wasn't for that
issue, people -- what on earth 
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- is going on out here.
JOHN: Don't you feel any responsibility for
these people?
STEVE: You -- listen to this.
JOHN: I am. I hear the noise in the
background. But don't you -- you recruited these
people, they're in there with you now, don't you feel
some moral responsibility to these people?
STEVE: You hear all that?
JOHN: And how. But don't you feel a moral
responsibility to these people? You recruited them,
you got them in there now.
STEVE: Yeah, well, of course.
JOHN: And that -- you know, this isn't going
STEVE: And that's why -- don't you think

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I've --
JOHN: -- to go away. That they're going to
be coming out one way or another. Why don't you make
it, make it easier for them?
STEVE: John, don't you think I've actually
gone to them more than anybody and talked to them over
and over again?
JOHN: I don't know, have you?
STEVE: Yes, I have. That's why I've had --
actually had these certain individuals talking to
different one of the negotiators, negotiators
frequently.
JOHN: How do you --
STEVE: I'm just -- I'm so dry.
JOHN: -- think this thing is going to end?
STEVE: How is it going to end?
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: with all of us locked up and half of
us being taken to the gallows.
JOHN: Is that how you think it's going to
end up?
STEVE: Well, the way I consider -- what I
see with the ATF and the whole justice system, what the
-- Kathy Schroeder and what's happened to her already,
I don't -- I think that -- in honesty, I think the ATP
wants to make an example of us. .I think they want to

p
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use us to bring about gun control in this country.
That's what I totally, honestly believe.
JOHN: Well, well, let's, let's not --
STEVE: I think that they're -- I think, I
think, I think --
JOHN: -- talk about what ATF believes or
wants. Let's talk about you, guy.
STEVE: I honestly believe there are powerful
merchants in this country that have certain designs on
the people and we are like a bunch of stupid sheep, the
masses. We suck down all the TV into our minds without
really thinking the issue -- _
JOHN: You're talking, you're talking about a
nation of sheep here now?
STEVE: Yes, I am talking about a nation of
sheep. You can just tell by callers that call in on
talk shows the ignorance, I mean the total ignorance of
the masses. Look at how they're so easily moved by
advertisements given by different merchants and so
forth.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I mean, I mean, come on, I mean I'm a
history student. All my life I've wanted to know why
this, why that. And I honestly came across some
individuals like an admiral of the Navy. I could give
you his name.

Q O
JOHN: Well, that's okay.
STEVE: I --
JOHN: WhatI'm concerned about now -- you
know, you're talking about all these people that are
sitting on the fence
rather than get these
STEVE: Did
JOHN: They
just have the kids be-- one way or the other» What --
you know that --
have their situa-- why don't you
sent out? Bring the --
STEVE: Hey, did you know that --
JOHN: -- kids out. Bring the kids out with
you tomorrow.
STEVE: Can I ask you a question? Do you
know what a republic is versus a democracy? Are you
familiar with those terms?
JOHN: Yes.
STEVE: Well, I'm glad you are because this
country at one time, when I was young, was especially
called a republic. Now we hear democracy is --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- closer to socialism.
JOHN: Uh-huh. That's an entirely different
situation that I don't want to get into.
STEVE: Very clearly, very clearly to me a
republic guarantees the rights of even minorities
whereas, you know, a democracy, majority rules. I,

. 9
myself, I -- when you're talking about me coming out
and all that -- v
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- I'm not, I'm not extremely happy
about the prospect of what I see is going to be
happening. You ask me, well, what do I see is going to
happen to these people, to myself?
JO!-IN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And I'm not joking when I say I
believe the ATP -- or they can't wait to get their
hands on us and make an example of us, no matter
whether they're right or wrong. That is -- it has
nothing to do with anything.
JOHN: You know, some people are going to be
thinking the reason you don't send the kids out is
because Vernon is afr-- would have nobody else to hide
behind.
STEVE: Oh, no, not in the least. Not in the
least.
JOHN: Yeah, this is one of those things --
hey, this --
STEVE: John? 
JOHN: -- is a thought that's been circling
around. And I think, hey --
STEVE: With liars like David Troy, do you
think that makes any difference to me, what some people

1
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think, when you've got a guy out there saying -- like
the methamphetamines -- when he's saying that we
ambushed these vehicles as they drove up.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I can't wait till this world comes to
an end and the  Indiscernible! regiment.
JOHN: Oh, no, no, no, no. Let's, let's --
okay. You sound very upset about this. Why?
STEVE: I am upset. You know I'm upset about
it.
JOHN: You know --
STEVE: It makes me mad when men like him --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: - outright -- I'd like the man --
there's not enough words in the language for me to even
use adjectives about a man like him. Adjectives.
JOHN: Well, this, this business about having
the children in there and having Vernon hide behind
them, you know, this is something that we've been
hearing --
STEVE: Let him deal with that. Those are
mostly his children. That's him in his own deal.
JOHN: Uhhuh. -
STEVE: As far as I'm concerned, what this
other -- what this man is saying and I mean that kind
of thing does make -- that actually -- like I told you,

;//-.
11
if you want to be -- have these people stuck in here
for a long time, tell Bob Ricks and, and men like him
to go up there and make statements like -- tell him to
continue doing that. Seriously.
JOHN: Now, the situation here is that --
STEVE: They're going to brew in here for a
lot longer when a guy like David Troy -- it would be
better if David Troy went back to where he came from
and got into something else.
-- coming
SUYS "JOHN: Now, this thing would be almost over
-- there's going to be almost over if you
STEVE: And he's the head of the intelligence
of the ATP I hear?
JOHN: I have no knowledge of what's going on
with the ATP, Steve. But it's -- one of these things
-- you've
deal here
type of a
bring thegot to understand that this are -- your whole
is just about over.
STEVE: Yeah, and that's fine.
JOHN: And you got to -- what we want on this
situation is for you to come on out tomorrow,
kids out, okay, and the videotape, sit down,
talk, fine. Or sit -- or just stand and talk. Using
the term sit down --
STEVE: Well, don't, don't -- let's not make
any promises because --

'/ 
. 12
JOHN: I'm not making any promises one way or
the other.
STEVE:  Indiscernible! don't get --
JOHN: This is in the exploratory phase right
now.
A STEVE: That's great. I like to hear that
because I want to -- it'll be worked out very -- in
detail.
JOHN: Right. Cause -- but think about it,
guy, this -- now, this is your chance to look good.
This is your chance to do the right thing.
STEVE: Well, I'm not worried about that.
JOHN: And this is a chance for the --
STEVE: I don't really care if I look at --
JOHN: What about the press? Wait till they
see that you're doing this kind of --
STEVE: I really don't care about that.
JOHN: It's dynamite.
STEVE: I'm into let's, let's deal honestly
with the facts and try to work and do what we can for
those of these people in here that are -- that have
been my friends.
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: They've shown me a lot of fortitude
and --
JOHN: Uh-huh.

P
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STEVE: -- and a lot of concern and, and I
mean they, they've shown that I'm really a genuine
friend of theirs. And I mean, you know, that means a
lot to me as it does to them.
JOHN: Absolutely. I can easily understand
that.
STEVE: So, for that reason, I mean I'm not
going to be rushing into anything but at the same time,
I'm --
JOHN: You've been out there what, 20 some
odd days?
STEVE: No, I've actually been involved in
this for six and a half years. So, you're talk -- you
guy -- for you it's 20 some days. For me --
JOHN: Yeah, but before I took this hyped up
situation, yeah.
STEVE: -- it's six and a half years. But
who's fault is that? That's a group called ATP.
JOHN: Don't know anything about that.
STEVE: You're lucky. I wish I didn't
either. "
JOHN: You know, Steve, what kind of a
positive sign have you shown us in the last couple of
days that you're working with us, you're trying to
resolve this thing in the best way. I'm kind of--
STEVE: Well, here's the sign I've been

Q 0
14
looking for.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: I've been waiting for the American
government to lock up a couple of those guys that were
involved in such an operation. I really have been.
JOHN: What, what, what op --
STEVE: The ATFs coming in and doing what
they did without even handing -- knocking at the door
without giving a search warrant.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Four witnesses stood at that door.
JOHN: Okay. Look, I don't want to talk
anything about that. I understand what your problems
are. We talked about this before with other people.
We're not going to be talking about what the ATF did or
a few other things. We're just going to leave that
alone.
What I'm concerned about is getting you out
of there, getting the kids out of there, getting this
whole thing resolved safely without any injuries to
anybody.
STEVE: Well, let's, let's move the ATP
 Indiscernible!.
JOHN: Well, what about showing us another
sign now?
STEVE: Pardon?

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JOHN: David's been sleeping and he's not
trying to help anybody out. He's been resol-- he's
just sort of doing whatever he's doing. It's falling
on your shoulders. Now, what are you going to be able
to do for these people in there and for yourself?
STEVE: Probably lay down and -- hopefully,
I'll turn into a Rip Van Winkle and get about 20 years
of sleep.
JOHN: Nah, your -- you got the gift of
eternal youth. You'll be going forever. g
STEVE: Oh, God, you ought to -- man, I've
aged so badly in the last month.
JOHN: Okay. You got -- what are you going
do as a positive sign, this thing tomorrow with the --
STEVE: Well, let's, let's start out by
letting me, you know -- daily is from 8:00 to 9:00.
So, right after 9:00 -- 11:00, could someone then --
JOHN: Dailies, what do you mean by dailies?
STEVE: That's our worship. If you look in
the Bible, the Judah -- Judaism and into Christianity
in the early centuries kept what's called a daily.
It's actually like a communion --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- where you spend an hour in
meditation or reading the Bible and that's twice a day.
JOHN: Okay. So, when's the other time? I

2
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92
Q
Qdon't want to disturb you when you're doing this thing.16
STEVE: It's from 8:00 to 9:00 and from about
2:00 to 3:00.
JOHN: Okay. So, then, the best time that
you feel -- do you have anything else planned or when
would be the best time to get ahold of you on this?
STEVE: Well, sometime after 9:00.
JOHN: How about around 7:00 a.m., would
that --
STEVE: Oh, that's terrible, especially what
time it already is. And I, I was up earlier than that
this morning and I went to bed late last night.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Okay. When do you plan to
shoot the video?
STEVE: Probably when I get up.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And I'm hoping to stay in bed as long
as I can --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- but there's a lot of racket around
here in the morning --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- especially these days.
JOHN: How about after breakfast or something
along that line? We give you a fast call to see how
things are going, at about 7:30?

9 9
STEVE: How, how about I call out? If you17
don't hear from me by 9:30, 10:00, you can call.
JOHN: Oh, hey, yeah, this -- to get this
thing all organized and orchestrated, to make sure that
everything is right --
STEVE: I don't even know. I, I wonder if I'm
not even -- you know, because I'm so tired, I mean --
remember now, it's so late.
JOHN: Oh, Steve, you're a dynamo.
STEVE: But, listen, it has a lot to do with
who the personality is going to be.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And, remember, I'm insisting that
this time whoever it's going to be, I meet with one
person out in the middle with no one else nearby. If
that doesn't sound good, let's not even continue on
with it.
JOHN: Okay. I'll just pass that up, you
know. This is something another group makes a decision
over.
STEVE: And if you guys - look, if you want
to film it or have somebody back at the fence or at a
Bradley near the fence or whatever a distance away, I
don't mind.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: You can film it, you can record it.

K
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18
I -- you can do whatever.
J01-IN: Yeah.
STEVE: It doesn't matter to me.
JOHN: Just remember this, keep this in the
front of your mind; no tricks, we're not going to do
anything silly, okay. And I hope you don't plan to do
anything like that either.
STEVE: -Well, I -- when I give you my word, I
JOHN: Yeah, same here.
STEVE: -- mean what I'm saying.
JOHN: That's absolutely correct. It's
going to be -- it's going to be a good situation.
STEVE: Okay. Now, if it's someone like
yourself, it will, it will be ten times better.
JOHN: I'm sorry, I -- go ahead. I, I had to
wipe something out of my eye for a second. It's hell
when you wear glasses. But go ahead, what --
STEVE: Yeah. I said if it was someone like
yourself, I'd be more apt to do it.
JOHN: Okay. Yeah, there probably might be
something along that line. Now, are you familiar with
your rules for safety that we got? Did they talk to
you about this before?
STEVE: John, do you know how many times
they've called me up even in a matter of minutes and

»92,-
_ 1 9
called me back and asked me the same -- and if --
JOHN:Okay. You know, we got to -- you
know, we've got to cover everybody's rear end on this.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE : Indiscernible! I mean I'm amazed.
Okay.
You know, I, I tried all these --
keep one's composure and so forth and --
JOHN:You're doing very -- I got a good --
you're dynamite as far as that's concerned. You're
very good at it.
STEVE :
you nowhere there
JOHN:
absolutely true,
STEVE:
JOHN:
to chew on this,
when we set thatwell, flattery, you know, will get
Well, I don't know. I think it's
though, in this case. By the --
Yes.
-- way, just  Indiscernible! you have
tomorrow there will be -- tomorrow
up, the person that you'll be talking
to will be transported probably in a Bradley for
safetys sake.
STEVE :
JOHN:Uh-huh.
Okay. So, that's basically what they
do. That's -- as far as the rest of it's concerned,
they'll get back to you tomorrow. We'll, we'll hammer
this whole thing out.
STEVE: Now, remember, I may not -- I might

20
change my mind --
JOHN: Oh, you're as solid as a rock, Steve.
STEVE: Now, listen to me -- now, listen to
me, I may change my mind, depending upon who the person
will be.
JOHN: Uh-huh. A
STEVE: It's going to almost have to be
someone that I've spoken with on the phone, that has
had a fairly good rapport.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I mean I don't want any high-
pressured sales people.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Some of you guys, if you're into
karate or whatever else --
JOHN: Oh, Jesus, we're --
STEVE: I'm not.
JOHN: Good. You're going to roll around --
STEVE: I'll tell you what --
JOHN: Roll around in the mud? Come on,
Steve.
STEVE: Listen to me, I do get a little bit
leery, I do. I can't help it.
u JOHN: We've been watching too many movies, I
think.
STEVE: I think you're right about that.

_ 21
JOHN: Good grief. This is --
STEVE: One too many.
JOHN: This is all gentlemen stuff.
STEVE: Now, if we had the FBI program and
Efram Zimbalist, Jr. --
JOHN: NO.
STEVE: -- I'd feel very safe.
JOHN: Absolutely. You'll -- Inspector
Erskine I believe it was.
STEVE: Now, did that program do you guys
justice or not?
JOHN: You know, unfortunately, it was the
same plot every week, you know, went out, got the
problem -- went out and solved it all within 45
minutes.
STEVE: Yeah, I know, I know. It's, it's
great. It actually is pretty great.
JOHN: Yeah. That worked out fairly well but
it did a nice number for us.
STEVE: Yeah, it seemed like it.
JOHN: You know, this situation tomorrow, I'm
getting a little excited about it. I think we can
probably get --
STEVE: Well, I don't know --
JOHN: -- take a big leap forward. And this
will be a positive sign.

H-»
_ 22
STEVE: You know, Wayne Martin usually likes
to give me his input into these kind of things when it
comes to the legal aspect of it.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And usually his advice is not to be
caught up into such a thing. He doesn't see why it
should be done --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- when all communications can happen
just as easily over the telephone.
JOHN: Remember, though, your attorney is
Zimmerman now. Stick with Wood Hayes  Phonetic!.
Don't --
STEVE: Well, even if I were to stick with
Zimmerman, I have no communication with the man, do I?
JOHN: Well, you will when you come on out.
STEVE: Well, I'm talking about right now. I
mean some kind of legal advice is definitely helpful.
JOHN: On this situation, as you pointed out,
you don't have anything particularly to worry about.
Your -- at least from what you've been telling me.
STEVE: Now, it all depends upon how we go
about it right down -- .
JOHN: Oh, yeah.
STEVE: -- to the last. You know, if someone
comes walking down about the time I'm walking up and we

9 Q
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both stand in the middle of the road and the Bradleys
-- there's none between me or ready to come --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- flying up from any angle or
direction.
JOHN: Now, I don't -- absolutely not.
That's absolutely not.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Now, you, you mosey on out and it
would be nice to see some of the children, too. And
would David be able to make it?
STEVE: Uh --
JOHN: A cameo appearance or something like
that.
STEVE: Would he be able to make it, what
out, out the road?
JOHN: Well, I think you can bring him out or
whatever he's --
STEVE: I suppose if I laid him in a
wheelbarrow or something and rolled him out.
JOHN: Well, whatever you think is best.
STEVE: I mean I don't even have one of those
anymore. They're all out there run over and squashed.
JOHN: Squished.
STEVE: Yeah, they're debris now, as they
call it. It's always interesting for me to hear what

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Bob Ricks has to say because so much is left out from
what happens around here --
. JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- day by day.
JOHN: Hey, is -- would David be able to get
out or could he leave?
STEVE: Well, would I allow him to leave? Is
that what  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: No, no, no, no. What I'm trying to
say, physically is he capable of picking -- being
picked or transported out of there?
STEVE: I -- gee, I don't know. Really, I
don't. I mean it's quite an effort for him to get up
and move --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- and then he, he has problems. I
don't know.
JOHN: You know, there, there are some
thoughts about, hey, you know, this guy might be a lot
-- need a little bit more assistance than, well, your
RN is able to provide.
STEVE: Yeah, probably so.
JOHN: And this, you know --
STEVE: Well, he believes in God and if God
doesn't --
JOHN: Yeah.

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25
STEVE: - want to keep him alive, well,
then, it --
JOHN: Yeah. You know, that's like the
people that eat snakes and all that sort of thing.
STEVE: Not, not quite that bad.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I mean seriously, you know, if you
looked at the wound and everything, you know, it seems
like it's -- it is progressing okay.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: It, it, it would have probably done
better having it cleaned up and all that right away -
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: - but --
JOHN: You know, this whole thing is just
about over and I guess he should be really ready to
move on out and make it to the next level.
STEVE: Well, every -- a lot of people here
-- honestly, a lot of people think so here, too. They
really do.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: But at the same time, of course, you
know, you want numbers yesterday. And I've had a hard
time because of our breakdown in the -- this past week.
JOHN: Which breakdown are we talking about?
STEVE: Oh, we're talking about when we sent

~
i  C"
~ 26
out the seven and then got all --
JOHN: Oh, okay.
STEVE: -- these weird sounds and then
Livingston and that. _ v
JOHN: Okay, that's all in the past. We kind
of forget about that. We just sort of concentrate what
you and I and the rest of the guys here are putting
together now.
As a matter of fact, I think --
STEVE: Hey, run, run that by me - reiterate
what we have here now. We are talking about the
attorney for myself.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: We're also talking about some
theologians.
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: We're talking about meeting with
yourself out in the middle of nowhere out here.
JOHN: Meeting with somebody but I'm, I'm --
I don't think it'll be me.
STEVE: I'll tell you what, you know, you
ought to see what this place looks like here now from
these Bradleys and tanks running all over the place.
JOHN: I can only imagine.
STEVE: Nothing but furrows around here.
JOHN: Yeah.

C O
- 27
STEVE: Mud and dirt furrows.
JOHN: Jesus. You guys have any crops
growing out there?
STEVE: Only cars.
JOHN: Only ca -- you're growing cars.
They're a little bit rough this season, aren't they?
STEVE: Cars, motorcycles, bicycles, they're
all over, just sticking out of the ground here and
there.
JOHN: I see. Terrific. Sounds like
something --
STEVE: Hey, I did tell, I think it was Dick,
a little earlier, you know, your guys were trying to
roll a brand new bulldozer over into a, a construction
site we have and it's not even ours. It belongs --
JOHN: It's not you --
STEVE: -- to Waco Rental.
JOHN: How fun.
STEVE: Three thousand dollars a month the
darn thing is and we never got to use it.
JOHN: Well, did you guys rent it and --
STEVE: Yeah. Now, it's -- now the rent's
due. We never got to use it, and they're rolling the
thing -- trying to roll it upside down and destroy a
$85,000 -- 4
JOHN: At least.

28
STEVE: -- piece of machinery that the place
will not be able to replace anytime soon.
JOHN: Is that, is that still  did they
toss it or what?
STEVE: They tried to. They actually went up
with it with a bladed tank.
JOHN: When did they do all this stuff,
today?
STEVE: Huh?
JOHN: Did they do all this stuff today?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: They went up to it with a bladed
and kept on dri-- I'm sure they did some damage to
it ---
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- but I -- why don't they just
tell you what, we'll -- I'll give them faith, I'll
my word, they can get in it, start it up and drive
out of here. So, I mean at least --
JOHN: Yeah. ~
STEVE: -- the guy can rent it out to
somebody else. _'
JOHN: I'm sure they got the keys for it
somewhere.
STEVE: Huh?tank
-- I
give
it

i
I
92
,-
f
92. 29
JOHN: There's -- there is -- got the keys
for the ignition on that type of thing or is it just
through a switch?
STEVE: I think it's probably just a switch.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I'm pretty sure it is.
JOHN: You know, this whole thing, Steve,
might be over in hours. You ever think of that?
And --
STEVE: I don't know.
JOHN: Again, we, we got to figure the end's
in sight here.
STEVE: well,  Indiscernible! working towards
it. I mean I've never, I've never been negative.
There's been a couple of times, I must admit, like
yesterday --
JOHN: Yeah. '
STEVE: -- I just lose my cool. And I did
apologize to old Henry, poor Henry.
J01-IN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: But I was a little bit mad by -- I
thought I was betrayed.
JOHN: No. Nobody's trying to screw over
anybody. Everybody's trying to do the right thing on
this.
STEVE: Well, no, but it, it did turn out to

30
be kind of a bad situation there. I mean a guy -- you
know, here's a person out there trying to do something
that was cleared. I mean it
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- it was just an annoyance.
JOHN: Yeah, I can
know, this thing has - this
came on the job recently and
end is really in sight. And
we're talking hours. So, weunderstand that. You
whole operation, I just
from what I gather, the
we're not talking days,
kind of figure that you
guys are going to do the right thing and just sort of,
you know, come our way or whatever else is going to
happen. And we're just hoping --
STEVE: Oh, boy, I
optimistic like yourself.wished I were so
JOHN: You know, talking with you I kind of
got the idea that you have a
STEVE: Well, I don't know. I mean I want itfeel on it --
to be but I mean, you know, you, you've heard me, I
mean, when it comes to - there's a lot of things that
bother the heck out of me.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Geez, I don't know.
JOHN: You know, you know, here you -- your
-- where you are now, it - the next level even when
you -- you probably will be taken into, into custody.

' 1 '
- 3 1
STEVE: Yeah, I know,  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: And it's gonna be a lot better there
than it is where you got it right now.
STEVE: I hope you guys don't stick me in
some place with Bubba, though.
JOHN: No, I don't, I don't think there's
going to be too much danger of that. You're going to
be segregated without any problems. They're not going
STEVE: Okay. Well, what kind of a prison
would they stick me in?
JOHN: I'm assuming it will probably be a
federal lockup right off the bat and federal's --
STEVE: And then what, do you get stuck in
with all these hardened criminals that are murderers
and homosexuals --
JOHN: I don't think none of federal deals --
STEVE: -- and all that kind of thing?
JOHN: No, I don't think you're going to get
too much of that. What you're going to probably --
STEVE: How about one of these white collar
places like where Jim Bakker went, where they've got a
golf course and --
JOHN: Or Maxwell Air Force Base or one of --
STEVE: Seriously, do they have such places
like that -- ~

JOHN: Oh, sure.
STEVE: -- for guys like me that -- I got
a -_
JOHN: Well, you're not going to get that
ori-- right off the bat.
STEVE: Why not?
JOHN: Well, because that's after your
sentence you get something like that. You get --
STEVE: I see. Oh, yeah, well, that's okay
I wonder if I can, can then something be worked out
where I can be in such a place? l
JOHN: Well, that's --
STEVE:  Indiscernible!.
JOHN: -- something you're going to have to
work out with your lawyer and --
STEVE: Spend the rest of my days planting
daisies and --
JOHN: Attending golf courses and all that
sort of thing.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Hey, you have a guy in there David
Thiboreau?
STEVE: Thibodeau. _
JOHN: Thibodeau. Him, too, I guess. Is he
around now?
STEVE: I don't -- I think -- no, he's not.

» 3 3
JOHN: Okay. What we've got, we have a tape
here that was just brought in that's from his mother
and we're supposed to play it for him.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Can roust -- can you roust him up or
anything?
STEVE: Can we do it tomorrow because he's
definitely in bed sleeping now?
JOHN: Okay. Tell you what, why don't you go
or, if you could, I'd appreciate this, Steve, is no big
thing but it's something that I would like. If you go
and wake him up and have him come on over and --
STEVE: The guy's not -- I mean can you
imagine that we call -- like, say, I know you and I
tell your wife about 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, hey,
would you wake him up? I just want to talk to him. I
JOHN: No, no. It's -- no, Steve, lock on to
this one.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: It's his mother and it's his mother's
tape. She made a tape especially for him.
STEVE: Oh, he won't -- he'd be mad -- I'll
tell you, can I be honest with you? He'd be mad at me
if I went -- he loves his sleep. If I go and bother
the guy, he's going to be ornery with me and be --

0 O
' 34
JOHN: Well, his mother's yelling and
screaming, you know. She thinks that --
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: -- you guys are doing terrible things
to him. So, she wants to get ahold of him.
STEVE: What? The guy's a drummer and
he's --
JOHN: Right, he's in the band. I saw the
thing on 60 Minutes or whatever it was or --
STEVE: 60 Minutes?
JOHN: Was it 60 Minutes or 48 Hours or some
STEVE: 48 Hours. Oh, did it actually have a
tape of him?
JOHN: Yeah. There he was wailing away and
his mother was there, too.
STEVE: Oh, really?
JOHN: Yeah, it was big to-do.
STEVE: On 48 Hours, he was on this program?
JOHN: One of those news magazines. I'm not
sure which one. 
STEVE: I see. Okay. I rarely watch TV so
I'm not even familiar with those things.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Anyhow, if -- I know it's an
imposition but I'd kind of appreciate it. And being
one --

» 35
STEVE: John, as much as I like you, I'm --
JOHN: We're going to crack our knuckles to
Home On The Range. Yeah, I know.
STEVE: Let's, let's just work on tomorrow
morning and -- '
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- see what can be accomplished. And
I will really be trying, I'm going to give it some
thought.
JOHN: Okay. Go ahead.
STEVE: I mean, you know, remember now my
biggest thing that I'm interested in, even for these
people, is the, the dialogue or some theologian or
theologian --
JOHN: Right, you came up with that. I like
that.
STEVE: And if, if there is some way to meet
this attorney and maybe with one of you guys or out --
whatever you -- if you got some suggestion. I mean
I --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- I wouldn't mind hearing sometimes.
I mean --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- I really wouldn't.
JOHN: Okay.

' 36
STEVE: And you eventually and also walking
out there tomorrow and meeting with someone like
yourself. I --
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: -- hoped that I have already talked
with them and --
JOHN: Yeah. That would work out well. And
then if you could bring some people out, perhaps some
of the children, just to show us that these kids are
okay and all this other thing. It's -- see, we got to
just show some positive move that you're absolutely --
you know, work -- working together.
STEVE: I, I'm never sure what you guys -- I,
I don't know why but I just get funny feelings about
what you guys could be up to.
I JOHN: No. Like I said, there's noth-- on
these type of thing, Steve, you're going to have to
trust me on this. There's nothing -- no hanky-pank, no
nonsense.
STEVE: Well, number one, you know, you're
asking for a huge -- I mean children, I mean -- number
one, they're not even mine except for a little
 Indiscernible! and I mean --
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: -- Judy would, would never allow it.
She -- if you just talk to her mother sometime, she --

O I
37
JOHN: Well, have her come on out, too. She
can take the kids on out and show that -- see, we have
tO --
STEVE: The only one should be taken out
would be our own so --
JOHN: Okay. Here's what we're talking
about. We're talking about public sentiment is that ~
you've got a group of kids in there that are being
abused and so forth and so on. You --
STEVE: Oh, --
JOHN: -- all right. Let me finish, please.
STEVE: Boy, when you -- _
JOHN: Then when you come on out and then you
show all these kids and all this other thing, hey, you
know, that's going to --
STEVE: John --
JOHN: -- go a long way for making your case
and everything just a piece of cake.
STEVE: John, when you got -- when you got
angels like David Troy out there, I can understand why
the public would think such things.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And has Bob Rick making -- Ricks
making some of the statements he is and he -- I mean
have them come in. I, I'll tell you what, have Bob
Ricks come in here, I'll show him around and he can

 38
talk to the children himself.
JOHN: Uh-huh. I --
STEVE: I mean what better -- I mean,
honestly, I mean David would treat him so decently.
what --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- would he like to drink or eat,
we'll have it -- we'll have it right here for him.
Can't promise him any T-bone steak but --
JOHN: Okay. Tomorrow -- getting back to our
friend Tibeau or whatever his name --
STEVE: Thibo -- Thibodeau.
JOHN: Thibodeau.
STEVE: French, French Arab.
JOHN: Okay. Can we -- how about the first
thing he gives a call and --
STEVE: Oh, yeah, we'll -- I'll, I'll stick
him right on right away.
JOHN: Yeah, so we can get this thing out of
the way so we can --
STEVE: Okay. I'll, I'll do that.
JOHN: Okay. So, we got that one. And you
-- you'll shoot the videotape of the --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- everybody in there?
STEVE:  Indiscernible! children, yeah.

O O
39
JOHN: Then come moseying on out.
STEVE: I'll try to get every child here.
JOHN: Okay. That sounds fair. So --
STEVE: Including myself.
JOHN: And then get a couple of adults tossed
in there to say hello. That's -- that works out well.
STEVE: Oh, that's right, we have no electric
-- I just happened to think, the room I was going to
use which normally has some lamps in it --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I'm going to have to find a place
where I know there's some light coming through, I
guess.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, why don't you take them
all outside and use the lights out there?
STEVE: Okay. You, you mean these guys in
the Bradley won't get all upset and --
JOHN: Oh, good grief, no.
STEVE: Hey, John, they -- I'm -- you can't
-- a person looks out the window, these guys get all
excited, seriously.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Well --
STEVE: I'll tell you, if you ever held on to
a broom handle, they'd think you had a -- I don't know
what they use in aircraft but they'd think it was one
of those things.

O O
~ 4 0
JOHN: Okay. Smart thing, though, when --
again, you'll be working -- you'll be working through
this tomorrow but when you do mosey out and you take
the wife or the women or whatever and some children out
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: -- nobody has any weapons, just, just
to play safe.
STEVE: Now don't go having this all stuck on
this press conference tomorrow by saying we will renege
and all this and that because nothing's even said yet.
JOHN: No. You're right.
STEVE: I'm talking about -- I'm listening to
you about it.
JOHN: Right. That's what we're working on
right now, and I think you're doing a good job of it
and I think you're being very intelligent about it. I
kinda like that idea.
STEVE: Flattery will get you everywhere.
JOHN: Oh, I hope so. My goodness.
" STEVE: Well, no, it's not going to. Just,
you know, that's the rule --
JOHN: No, that's a flash. 
STEVE: -- that's the rule about everything.
Listen, those sea gulls out there. *
JOHN: Hey, that's great, just like in San

Q O
4 l
Francisco, huh?
STEVE: I don't know what they are, crows or
what, but --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Well, I guess -- -
JOHN: Well, you're doing everything. So, we
got everything pretty well --
STEVE: So, you're going to be turning in in
the morning some time, huh?
JOHN: will I be turning in?
STEVE : Yeah . I
JOHN: Basically. I'll be here all night for
you. And so will a whole pile of other people.
STEVE: Well, you save some prayers for me
and I'd appreciate it.
JOHN: Well, we all - you'll have enough
prayers and other things.
STEVE:  Indiscernible! afraid of yourself
then.
JOHN: Yeah, a little bit of that.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: So, look, guy, you got -- I think
we've -- hopefully, things are going along pretty well
here but, remember, this thing is  we think it's
going to be over a little bit sooner than a lot of
folks think. -

i
i
»

9242
STEVE: Well, that's good. I'm glad you're
optimistic.
JOHN: Because
people like yourself.especially with working with
STEVE: If that comes -- you know what, maybe
if that comes through again like it does at times,
maybe we can start getting this thing going again is
right. T
JOHN: Uh-huh.
looking at. See, cause
happening and we're kind
want you to do the right
lot easier for everybody.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: I thinkYeah, well, that's what I'm
we kind of know what's
of comfortable with it but we
thing, too, to make things a
well, I'm trying.
you might, might seriously be
giving it a shot, although we've been waltzing around
here for a number of days and without a lot of positive
feedback. Now, you've been talking to us pretty well.
We like that. But, unfortunately, doesn't seem to be
anything positive coming from it and that's what we're
getting kind of concerned about.
STEVE: Well, I know but -- well, I know and
I agree with that. I mean in all honesty I haven't
been able to really affect anybody in any way.
JOHN: Steve, you're -- the way you can chat
and the way you brought in recruits and the way you've

43
worked for this organization --
STEVE: Oh, but that's different. Come on, I
mean that's different. If even you gave me an
opportunity -- there's one thing that I'm able to do.
Everybody's got an area.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
_ STEVE: And because some -- look, whatever
kind of a sales -- I mean religious people are a lot of
times sales people. I mean there's --
JOHN: Uh~huh.
STEVE: -- people even have asked me, Steve,
what do you do? And I say, sell God.
JOHN: Uh-huh, okay.
STEVE: And I mean it's true. I mean if they
have the time, well, look, what do you think about
this, what do you think about that? I mean that's
different. I -- I'm convicted, I see something, I, I'd
buy out, it's something I believe in. So, you know,
when you offer it to someone the conviction's there but
JOHN: Okay. What you have to do on this is
just change your product.
STEVE: Well, I know but --
JOHN: You go from the God game into
something -- to self-survival.
STEVE: Well, that's what I've tried to do.

' 44
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: But these people still see the
product that I originally showed to them and, and so
trying to counter that is not -- that's what I'm
telling you. D
JOHN: Uh-huh. '
STEVE: It's not easy.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Especially when he's gone beyond --
it's like I sold them a toothbrush and he comes along
and sells the house that goes with what a toothbrush
hangs.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Well, the trick is he's out
of the picture now, isn't he? You haven't heard from
him in four days. He's up there --
STEVE: No, I've talked with him every --
JOHN: -- sleeping and --
STEVE: John, I've talked to him everyday.
JOHN: Oh, you have?
STEVE: Oh, yeah, everyday.
JOHN: Well, has he talked to the rest of the
folks there?
STEVE: A few of them, yeah, he has.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: A few. But on the whole, it depends
upon, you know, somebody -- overall, they've kind of

O O
 4592
left him alone because he's not felt too good.
JOHN: Yeah. And then, you know, it's
starting to affect his leadership. And this is where
we think you can do with your excellent selling
potential, resolve this thing easily for us before
anything unpleasant happens. .
STEVE: Do they actually stamp you guys out
in some kind of a cookie cutter factory or --
JOHN: Why is that?
STEVE: I mean --
JOHN: I'm going to love your sense of humor.
Go ahead.
STEVE: Well, no, I mean it's just that, you
know, makes the same thing over and over again. I
mean, John, I'm going to do all I can but, honestly,
you know, -- I, I would actually try to line up and
encourage everybody to line up here where you could
even talk to them. You'll see that these guys, these
people, are very independent. They really are.
They've got great hopes about the Bible and its
fulfillment. They really do. That, that takes
precedence over anything. And for me to say, hey, it's
not there, you need to leave right now. Then they're
going to keep on pointing back to what I originally
showed them before this crazy thing all happened.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Now, look, what I'm -- just

46
so you're aware --
STEVE: You know, I mean you're aware though,
too, that, that things like this -- when a crisis
comes, a lot of times will solidify people and their
beliefs even stronger. They'll like dig down and hang
in there all the more. To some degree, that's what's
happened here.
JOHN: Like London in the blitz, huh?
STEVE: That's about it.
JOHN: Yeah. Okay. We want to let you know
that there may be some vehicles moving around tonight
and, and tomorrow. So, --
STEVE: What shenanigans are they going to be
up to tonight?
JOHN: I don't know. Just want to let you
know.
STEVE: Well, you --
JOHN: But let's hope that David gets over
his problem soon and goes out and starts doing the
right things and dragging people out.
STEVE: Well, just remember now that some of
these guys are, you know, -- they keep on telling us
not to do certain things and -- t
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- and these people keep on
encroaching and encroaching and encroaching.

1
I
k
Q
QJOHN:~ 47
Yeah.
STEVE: They're guys that are getting itchy
fingers. I mean you know what they're going to want to
do?
JOHN: Don't -- please don't tell me that --
they want to take -- they're not going to start
shooting?
STEVE: They're going to want -- they're
going to want to shoot some rubber bands or throw water
balloons out of
JOHN:
lot better. Oh,
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
something along
STEVE
well, okay.
JOHN:here.
That sounds like it -- that sounds a
man, --
N0, I mean but, seriously, --
They're going to be --
 Indiscernible!.
-- bulldozing tomorrow probably.
They're going to do what?
Probably have some bulldozers out or
that line.
Well, why don't -- they're coming --
It's no big thing. Don't worry about
it. It's just something that they're doing out there.
STEVE: Yeah, I know. They're making more
trenches and --
JOHN: Geez, how'd you like to fill that

Q I
48
stuff in? Oh, Christ.
STEVE: How would I like to do what?
JOHN: How would you like to go out and start
filling that -- all those holes and making that hole --
yeah.
STEVE: I don't -- to tell you the truth, the
way this property's been so messed up, I would -- you
know what I was going to do the other day? I was
actually going to mention to John or somebody, one of
the other guys, hey, --
JOHN: The other John? It's okay.
STEVE: I was going to go out there in a
swimming suit and go take a dip in the lake.
JOHN: Yeah, why -- you guys got a pool back
there or something?
STEVE: Huh?
JOHN: You got a pool back there, a swimming
pool?
STEVE: Well, yeah, it's not -- it's about a
third full of rain water and such. It's all dirty. I
mean, you know, --
JOHN: Are you growing your own mosquitoes or
what?
STEVE: Yeah. That's what it's going to be
used for probably shortly here.
JOHN: Yeah.

D O
49
STEVE: But, yeah, anyway.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah, that should work out
fairly well for you then tomorrow, I guess.
STEVE: Oh, it sounds like I'm going to have
a nice lovely day.
JOHN: That's no problem. We get out in --
get out in the fresh air, walk around, breathe some
fresh air, meet some people, talk, resolve a few
problems. You know, it's the kind of thing that we all
hope that happened earlier.
STEVE: Well. I need to tell you right now
it's a 50/50 chance. I'm, I'm saying maybe to it all.
So --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- it still comes down to who we're
talking about and what you guys have in mind and --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I don't know why but I always get
this, this funny feeling like you guys want to come up
and snatch me or something.
JOHN: No, no, no. First off, that's not
going to happen. I told you it's not going to happen.
You can rely on that. Absolutely. And the -- you'll
see these people -- like tomorrow, they -- what they're
going to be doing tomorrow probably before this all
takes -- probably move some vehicles around with their

O O
' 5 0
bulldozers again and they're going to knock down some
walls. But don't get --
STEVE: Knock down some walls?
JOHN: Well, I guess. I don't know. That's
-- it's only a matter of time'as I said bef -- they're
trying to resolve this situation.
STEVE: What walls are we -- what walls are
we talking about?
thereJOHN: I don't know. I've never been out
STEVE: Well, tell them to be careful because
there's some people in here that might just go lay down
and  Indiscernible!.
case.
don't
Well,
them,
goingJOHN: Oh, I hope that's not going to be the
STEVE: See, I'm not too used -- see, I, I
know about all these people here.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Yeah, I can understand that.
you've got, you got pretty good control over
I would think, or at least you can speak to them.
STEVE: Tell them to always watch out --
JOHN: Speak with them, let them know what's
on.
STEVE: And tell them to always watch out for
the children, too, because I mean they don't know where
they're at in the building and so forth.

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JOHN: Hey, guess what?
STEVE: Cause the kids, they play all over
the place. They really do.
JOHN: An old friend of yours just stopped
in.
STEVE: Who's that?
JOHN: John Cox.
STEVE: Oh, how's he doing?
JOHN: I don't know. Let him tell it to you
himself.
STEVE: Well, you -- ask him what is he doing
up so late.
JOHN: I don't know. He probably wants to
talk to you.
STEVE: Oh, no.
JOHN: Hang on.
JOHN COX: Hey.
STEVE: Hello.
JOHN COX: What've you been doing?
STEVE: Hey, John, what --
JOHN COX: Huh?
STEVE: -- are you doing up so late now?
JOHN COX: Oh --
STEVE: I thought you were getting the night
off or a couple days off --
aoim cox: No, 1 haven't had a night off in

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27 days.
STEVE: 27 years, huh?
JOHN COX: At least 27 days.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: It sounds like you're at the
beach.
STEVE: Well, I am.
JOHN COX: Huh?
STEVE: I, I actually am. I'm calling you
from Hawaii right now.
JOHN COX: Oh. Well, you didn't believe
me --
STEVE: I'm the one -- I'm the one that
initiated the call. I, I -- these guys comes here in
so much, you know, there's about seven guys that have
gotten in here now.
JOHN COX: Well, we want to give everybody a
fair chance to talk to you and, you know, spread the
word around a little bit.
STEVE: That's great. That's great. I guess
we're not getting the word out so they're coming here
for it. I don't know.
JOHN COX: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you didn't
believe me the other night when I said I was talking to
you from right, right there on the road.
STEVE: Well, I know. I mean you did bring

' 53
that up and I was quite surprised.
JOHN COX: You seemed kind of, kind of
shocked -- I was right outside the front door about --
on the other side of the lake.
STEVE: Geez, I mean --
JOHN COX: I was trying to get you to, to
wake -- you got a bunch of birds on the lake out there?
STEVE: Yeah, I was talking to -- you know
how many people I've talked to today? There's been
Linda.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: There's been Dick. There's been
John-5, John -- let's see, was it four even?
JOHN COX: Did you get John2 al-- I mean
John-3?
STEVE: I talked to Henry today. I talked to
JOHN COX: Did you?
STEVE: Oh, man, absolutely, I was on the
phone all --
JOHN COX: -- Hey, you know if we get Tony
now --
STEVE: Oh, Tony, that's right. I talked to
Tony.
JOHN COX: Don't forget. He'd be, he'd be
hurt. He mentioned -- you mentioned Dick. That's

good. But don't, don't
upset.
STEVE: Okay.54
forget Tony. The guy would be
JOHN COX: Hey, are we moving along? Huh?
STEVE: Anyway --
JOHN COX: What I'd do, lose you?
STEVE: Somebody was --
JOHN COX: Somebody prodding you?
STEVE: Someone is lau-- someone is laughing
out there.
JOHN COX: Huh?
STEVE: Here goes somebody's laugh. The
dogs, they're getting excited about your person
laughing over the loudspeaker here.
JOHN COX: Well, gotta get excited92about
something. They were running around the --
STEVE: Sounds like we're at a circus here.
JOHN COX: The, the other night when that --
when that fellow was --
the front door there, I
were running around out
STEVE: I was
all of a sudden someonethe last one was running up to
understand some of the dogs
front too.
in bed sleeping actually and
says, Steve, Steve, there's
somebody at the door. I says, what?
JOHN COX: You got, you got to sleep early,
huh?

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STEVE: Huh? .
JOHN COX: Hey, tell me something.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Can you hear me?
STEVE: Yeah, I'm listening.
JOHN COX: What's, what's the story with
those two guys? They're not going to -- they're not
going to cause a problem?
STEVE: No. If -- you know, ask John-5 about
them and --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: -- I had quite a lengthy discussion
about --
JOHN COX: Yeah .
STEVE: He wanted to know a lot about -- a
lot of things about the inside here, the logistics, so
you --
JOHN COX: I'm not asking you that. I'm just
asking you --
STEVE: No, no, but he did, just so, you
know, when the day comes you can burn us out or run us
over or whatever.
JOHN COX: Well, time's getting short but I
just --
STEVE: Yeah, I know.
JOHN COX: I don't want those two birds to --

9   9
56
STEVE: And I'm, and I'm just here.
JOHN COX: -- if that's true.
STEVE: Let's have a beer.
JOHN COX: As a matter of fact --
STEVE: Anyway --
JOHN COX: -- a steak and a baked potato,
too, huh? .
STEVE: Well, you could have that for me.
JOHN cox: Well, I did. ,
STEVE: I need, I need to go on a fast, I
think.
JOHN COX: You know I was thinking of you
when I had it, don't you?
STEVE: Well, I hope so.
JOHN COX: Well, sure.
STEVE: Well, good.
JOHN COX: Sure.
STEVE: Good.
JOHN COX: I know you like those MREs better
anyhow.
STEVE: Well, that's right, I do.
' JOHN COX: Huh? Getting kind of accustomed
to them.
STEVE: Yeah, I sure am.
JOHN COX: Just -- I hope there's some
tabasco sauce in there so you can --

5. 6
' 57
STEVE: Plenty.
JOHN COX: That's good. Add a little spice
to them. Listen, we -- the big concern was that those,
that those two guys are just bounced out of the -- out
of the blue. I mean one guy tells, what, somebody that
he came in on the air or something like that, flew in
on a breeze. And that tells you a little bit about his
mind-set, doesn't it?
STEVE: No, I sat -- I actually spent a lot
of -- quite a bit of time with him and -- since last
night and with the other one the last day or so. And,
they're, they're talking about --
JOHN COX: Somebody keeping an eye on them?
STEVE: Oh, always, always. They're in a
place where they're constantly observed and watched.
So, it's not a problem. They're, they're here, they
said, genuinely. And I, I -- they're, they're okay.
JOHN COX: Well, they, they probably are.
STEVE: One's --
JOHN COX: That doesn't mean they're the most
rational people in the world.
STEVE: No, no, they're okay. They're,
they're all right. You know, one has got a pentecostal
background --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- with the feelings, emotional type.

n
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JOHN cox: Uh-huh. '
STEVE: The other guy, he's had his unique
experiences, too, but when it comes right down to it,
they've asked some pretty good questions.
JOHN COX: He looked like a strange duck
standing out in front of that door.
STEVE: I'm sure. Why, did you get to see
that?
JOHN COX: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: You actually did?
JOHN COX: Yeah. I was just up there
looking.
STEVE: No kidding.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: Well, what kind of a --
JOHN COX: I told you I wasn't too far away.
STEVE: ,Well, unless you have some devices
here where you're, you're being transmitted.
JOHN COX: Just, just, just a pair of
binoculars, that's all.
STEVE: Really?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: Yeah, he's a -- definitely, he looks
like he's a leprechaun.
JOHN COX: Look, looked like a, what, a fuzzy
beard and long hair something?

i O O
59
STEVE: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
JOHN COX: I mean he looked like something
that ought to have colors on riding a motorcycle.
STEVE: Yeah, he's apparently been around
types like that --
JOHN COX: Has he?
STEVE: - through the years.
JOHN COX: Good. Yeah.
STEVE: He's all right.
JOHN COX: Well, just as long as he doesn't
get his hands on things that he shouldn't get his hands
on.
STEVE: But none -- neither one are like
that.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: You know, they both have -- they're
peace-loving typesr
JOHN cox: Really?
STEVE: They're not into violence. They're
not into any of that sort of thing.
JOHN COX: Well, ~-
STEVE: Just like myself.
JOHN COX: Well, I, I believe you're a
peaceful person.
STEVE: Well, of course. Like I was telling
John, the only thing I've ever shot in my life is

' O O
60
1 nature with a 35 millimeter camera.
 2 JOHN COX: Well, you probably shot the bird
3 at somebody at one time or another. I know that.
4 STEVE: Not --
5 A JOHN COX: Maybe.
6 STEVE: Maybe when I was younger, in my .
7 teens.
8 JOHN COX: Yeah.
9 STEVE: But that's been a long time ago.
10 JOHN COX: Well, I understand that maybe a
11 chance of coming out and having a little dissertation
12 tomorrow with somebody, huh?
13 STEVE: We're definitely discussing it. But
14 I told him --
15 JOHN COX: Well, that's a good idea.
16 STEVE: -- though, you know, let's, let's
17 think about it and --
18 JOHN COX: Well, you know that nobody's
19 playing any games with you. I mean when you finish the
20 video maybe you can come out and talk to somebody and,
21 and it's, to me, always easier to talk face to face to
22 somebody than it is over a telephone.
23 STEVE: Well, you know, --
_ 24 JOHN COX: It's more personalized.
_ 25 STEVE: -- I really don't see what's to be --
I mean what was gained by it the last time, there --
0-
92

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/
 to 0
61
JOHN COX: Really?
STEVE: -- was really no difference between
talking on the phone about the issues or talking out
there and being rained and soaked over and --
JOHN COX: Well, maybe it won't be raining.
STEVE: -- and be watching the two guys, was
totally --
JOHN COX: Those, those guys are not there
for your concern. They really aren't.
STEVE: Well,  Indiscernible!.
JOHN COX: You have to understand the concern
of the people out here.
STEVE: I really -- I didn't like the
situation, I'll be honest with you, I really didn't.
JOHN COX: Did anybody get hurt?
STEVE: I'd rather stand out there --
JOHN COX: No.
STEVE: -- on my own facing Byron and a
Bradley.
JOHN COX: Well, that's about the size of
what it was. I mean you had, you had a couple of guys
standing around the side of it but they didn't say
anything, they didn't -- they just stood perfectly
9:111, didn't they? '
STEVE: They whispered and laughed. They
whispered and laughed amongst themselves.

62
JOHN COX: Well, listen, it didn't interfere
with the dialogue of the conversation. And you know
you can have a much better conversa -- speaking of
conversations, I just -- something just dawned on me --
STEVE: What?
JOHN COX: -- that I talked to your sister
this evening.
STEVE: You did, huh?
JOHN COX: Yeah, I did.
STEVE: Well, what did she have - what did
she have to say?
JOHN COX: From Teenbridge, Wisconsin.
STEVE: That's true.
JOHN COX: Yeah, I talked to her on the phone
earlier this evening. As a matter of fact, I was kind
of surprised. The phone rang down here and it was your
sister. V
STEVE: Hum.
JOHN COX: And I think I had talked to her
once before.
STEVE: What'd she have to say?
JOHN COX: Well, you know, she was just
talking about the concern and the whole thing. And I
told her that many of us had spoken to you and that you
were healthy and that you sounded fine. As a matter of
fact, I said - I told her that her voice sounded just

63
like yours.
STEVE: Yeah, it's --
JOHN COX: Your voices are just --
STEVE: -- great similarities.
JOHN COX: Bronson Beer country, huh?
STEVE: That's it. You've got that right.
JOHN COX: But it's, it's very, very Similar-
I don't know if you're about the same age or anything
like that but you're --
STEVE: We're a year apart.
JOHN COX: Are you really?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Yeah. Well, you must be fairly
close then. But it was just -- you know, it wasn't one
of these conversations other than a friendly
conversation. She wasn't trying, trying to put
pressure or anything like that. She just called 'cause
she was concerned. And we had talked to her before and
said if, if you want to call back, give us a call.
We'll be happy to talk to you. And it gave, gave us
quite a surprise. I was sitting at the table doing
something else and the phone rang.
STEVE: Hum.
JOHN COX: And it was her. Probably -- I
don't know, 8:00, something like that.
STEVE: Yeah, that's  Indiscernible!.

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JOHN COX: 8:30. And she said -- I asked
her, I said, where's Cambridge? And she said up near
Madison.
STEVE: Yeah, it is.
JOHN COX: So, I -- cause it wasn't familiar
to me. I had no idea where it was. Yeah.
STEVE:  Indiscernible!.
JOHN COX: But it was nice to talk to her.
It would be nice if you could talk to her, too. But I,
I under --
STEVE: Well, I, I don't know if that will
ever happen again but --
JOHN COX: Well, I'm sure it's going to
happen pretty soon, real soon, I would think.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN COX: It's kind of the vibes I'm
getting.
STEVE: I was asking John about some of these
kind of white tower kind of institutions where like Jim
Bakker is being housed.
JOHN COX: Like Eggland Hir Force Base or
Maxwell Air Force Base or something?
STEVE: I don't know -- yeah, I don't know
anything about it but I just was thinking about
finishing up my last few days there.
JOHN COX: What -- why -- well, hey, it all

,< &#39;1.&#39;l_ O __ .»_&#39;§ &#39;I y .
65
depends upon the system. I mean the system has to
determine whether you&#39;re going to be charged with
something or whether you&#39;re not going to be charged
with something. I, I --
STEVE: Well, I --
JOHN COX: -- told you -- hey, I told you
before and I will -- I wouldn&#39;t lie to you, I wouldn&#39;t
kid you, that you know what to expect when you come
out .
STEVE: When I was -- I was telling John-5
there, when I --
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: -- heard what happened to Kathy