Document text
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U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #229
4/15/93
6:24 P.M. 7:33 P.M..
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Tape 229!
JOHN: -- communication.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: You recall our lines were down.
Everybody --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: And so I don't think it was anybody's
particular problem or fault. It was just an
unfortunate collection of circumstances that occurred.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: And, as a result, you came face to
face with flashbacks, which was a very unpleasant
situation.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, really that, I don't
know why but it didn't seem to -- It was more the idea
that they would do it than the actual thing itself
'cause --
JOHN: Did it part your hair?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NOt at all.
JOHN: Oh, it didn't?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll be honest with you.
It didn't really bother me, but there was a little kid
by the window that had ear problems for about two days
JOHN: Wow, that's, that's -- I'm surprised
it didn't bother you. That's unfortunate with the kid
too.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, seriously, I'm not,
I'm not joking. It really didn't. I stood there for
the second one even and still stayed there a little
bit. And I said what's going on?
JOHN: See, as I recall, you're something of
a road mamager for rock and roll bands, so your
hearing's probably shot anyway,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I tried to --
Actually, like you're saying, I'm extremely concerned
about my hearing and that kind of music, and I'm
usually trying to cup my ear or stay as far from it,
even when I'm anywhere involved.
JOHN: Yeah, that can be a thing -- Hey, have
you had your meal yet? -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: My MRE?
JOHN: Whatever. - a tossed salad or Caesar
salad here with or without anchovies tonight?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:@ Yeah. Well, hey, I'd like
to take you to a restaurant over there on the other
side of Arturis, and you won't believe the kind of food
they've got.
JOHN: Where is it, by the way? What
restaurant are you talking about? '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm talking about the other
one on the other side of the Galaxy.
JOHN: Galaxy? I thought you were with --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: - or the Milky Way.
JOHN: Oh, oh, oh. We're talking about
something really serious here now. -- the hypothetical
or way out there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John, come on. You've got
to know that there's life out there somewhere.
JOHN: Oh, probably. I'm sure there is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: Unfortunately, we're dealing, we're
dealing on the reality level here about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, dear.
JOHN: Let me see, there's a place called
Galaxy, Texas, which is a little bit north of Dallas,
is that what you had in mind?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I had a feeling that you
hadn't picked up on it, so I'd thought I'd just go a
little bit further with it.
JOHN: Uh-huh. No, when you were outside
the -- what did you - what was your restaurant of
choice?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: When I was -- I love
Italian food and Mexican food, even though I lived in
Hawaii where there's no end of Oriental variety.
JOHN: Yeah, but as far as food is concerned
here in, what is this? Waco?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, Waco. I never - I
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really didn't eat a lot around Waco. I mean, more so
California. when I came here, I usually came here just
to study, to spend some time, then I'd go back out to
California.
JOHN: _Yeah. 'Cause David was pretty well
known outside the gate there and -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he was.
JOHN: - and he sort of bounced around a
little bit.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If you go around talking to
like, oh, I could give you a whole list of businesses.
He'd stay there for hours talking to the clerks and the
people. It doesn't matter where he goes, you know,
it's always been that way.
JOHN: Um-hum. That sounds like a page out
of, what was it, Jesse Amen's book.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, no, really?
JOHN: Yeah. I can imagine Jesse wandering
into my restaurant and standing in front of my cashier
and doing the Bible business.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Amen, brother.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's the only thing I
remember him saying is amen, brother. He wasn't even
supposed to --
JOHN: Remember, if this doesn't come out1
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soon, he's going back in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
JOHN: If this -- if you don't come out soon,
he's going back in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If we don't come out he's
going back in where?
JOHN: To you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Say what?
JOHN: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are you trying to keep us
here?
JOHN: No, but that's it. That's what I have
hanging over your head.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know. I mean, I --
he's a human being, you know, I mean, I don't know --
JOHN: Okay, if you say so.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- what circumstances the
poor guy's been through and --
JOHN: Yeah, he's one of 60 --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I imagine you people
all look at me in the same light, so --
JOHN: No, no, no, no, you're rational at
times.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: At times. Oh.
JOHN: -- you reliability coefficient, we're
concerned about that at times.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll qualify that or those
listening to you are going to wonder what's happening
with you.
JOHN: No. I'm using one of my favorite
terms, you reliability coefficient, we're concerned
about that sometimes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: By the way, I think, you know, we
could return to Jesse Amen. He's something of a galaxy
traveler himself.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he is. From what he
tells me, I think he is.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: .I believe he is.
JOHN: Way on up there. But life goes on.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I had -- I knew of some --
I should call them acquaintances, but in Hawaii there
was a friend of my wife's that worked in the same
place, and this guy had spent over $100,000 in
scientology and he --
JOHN: Oh, yes, yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- swore up and down he'd
been on Mars and he had traveled --
JOHN: Ohhh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He had traveled there
and --
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JOHN: Yeah, down in -- they get a big hang
up -- '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, the guy, you know, he
was an extremely intelligent guy, he really was, and
nothing wrong with his communication, nothing wrong -
with him period, other than he was into this
scientology. I mean, he could carry on a conversation
about anything with you. He was okay.
JOHN: Veah, there's an open switch on those
guys, I feel.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I really don't doubt his
experience, I just don't believe that it --
JOHN: Don't doubt his --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- labeled his experience.
I mean, I believe that there's a spiritual world, that
there are spiritual beings that inter-react with us.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:, I mean, I don't know what
you think about psychic and supernatural phenomena,
ouija boards, about -- I mean, sometimes get into
typoosum phonetic sp.!, something of Hinduism where
it's actually -- it takes place in Malaysia once a
year.
JOHN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They put hooks on the back
and pull carts. I mean, I've literally seen them run
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rods through the cheeks.
JOHN: Well, this is something I talked to
David about, and I think I made mention of Eric Von
Donegan phonetic sp.!.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. Sure. Oh, yeah,
he's -- that's -- In fact, that's quite a -- I, I
personally have seen that a few times, and David'll get
heavy into that with you, about the realities of some
of the things -- the different artifacts and so forth
that were left. '
JOHN: Um-hum. You know, there's potential
there. Again, it's like the, the Bible, it can be
interpreted numerous ways.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, really it can't,
though. I mean --
JOHN: You mean about the lions or the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. John, people can
attempt to do so, but those men that wrote down, as
weird as it is what they wrote down, they saw
something, tried to use the language of their day to
describe something in the future.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And they definitely
harmonize when given the opportunity. I mean, no one
that I've ever met has been able to really do a good
job. There was a man by the name of Dr. Waterhouse,
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Douglas Waterhouse, up in Michigan and he'd --
JOHN: He must have a son who's a Marine
Corps artist, cause Col. Waterhouse is a very
famous --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think I have heard the --
Yeah, Col. Waterhouse, I think I've heard of him.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Waterhouse is a big name in
Hawaii. They started one of the major banks there.
JOHN: Yeah. They're also an accounting
crowd, too, Price Waterhouse.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You've got it. That's
true, they're one of the -- if not the biggest, one of
them. But this guy, I was quite impressed with him.
He had done a lot of work in imagery, symbolism of the
Bible, Revelation, Ezekiel, Zechariah. In fact, I had
taken about seven classes with, then I, I'd done a lot
of research with him. And in the process, I'd always
hope that he would meet David. I wanted to see what
kind of a fireworks that would be.
JOHN: Um-hum. Hey, I've got a commercial
now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: okay.
JOHN: Have you had an opportunity to touch
base with David about setting this thing up with Clint?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He, he will definitely do
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it. I already know he will.
JOHN: Okay. So he'll pass through there and
he's got the word, then at about 7:00 he --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He hasn't, but I, I will --
I'1l be on my way in just a few minutes. So he will be
there for sure at 7 then?
JOHN: Yeah, we'll drag him - I think he
should be finished by that time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Maybe what I should
do then is run up there, make sure he knows.
JOHN: Yeah. And --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You want me to give you a
call right back?
JOHN: Well, either way, however You want to
do it. Or just give us a call back at 7 would be fine,
with David picking up.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. If you don't mind, I
think what I'm going to do is try to have Graham here,
work it out where maybe he can get a second --
JOHN: Graham? Who's this? Is this Graham
Craddock or somebody?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's it, that's it. Very
good, very good.
JOHN: I5 he --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's, like I said, a
"Gilligan's Island" professor.
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JOHN: Okay. Yeah. Another thing we - that
might be considered, you know, I don't know what
Graham's background is, but we've got really good
communication going now. We don't want Graham Craddock
or anybody else screwing things up.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, he's the one that
actually finally got it like this. And he's got it now
so stationary -- -
JOHN: Our techies are going to take a lot of
heat over that one. They were the ones -- They're
taking bows for it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, anyway, he's got it
now so it's very stationary and firmly attached to the
wall.
JOHN: well, I'm just worried about the fact
that he starts messing around with the phone that --
It's bad enough we have to worry about the Bradleys
coming in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If you saw what the guy's
all been fixing while he's - it's a mind - I mean, I
-- that's why I've called him what I did, you know, the
professor.
JOHN: Okay. The bottom line is don't screw
up the line.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, no, no, no. No, no. I
believe seriously he's good. He knows what he -- And,,
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you know, from the beginning --
JOHN: You don't want us to face the techies,
screaming and yelling at us, do you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Say what now, John?
JOHN: You don't want us to face the
technies, screaming and yelling at us?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I thought maybe he was
already around there, sitting there and saying no,
don't touch it.
JOHN: Right. Or else it's going to explode.
Okay, old man, why don't you do it that way? Touch
base with David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I will.
JOHN: Then about 7:00 why don't you give me
a call back? Then we'll hook everybody up and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sounds good.
JOHN: -- away we'll go. Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:, Okay.
JOHN: Okay. Bon Appetit.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello, John?
JOHN: Yeah, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, the -- I was calling
back because I just talked to David and he says yeah,1
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that'd be fine.
JOHN: Okay. i
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said I'll be down there
in about 15 minutes or whenever he'll be around. And
then he says, Steve, but still, I'd like to get that
tape out to those guys so they can at least see,
generally speaking, a reaction to his first four, five,
six questions.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Any, any way we could drop
it off and you could pick it up here or --
JOHN: That's the problem. The commanders
are starting to get a little sticky on, you know,
running in and out of there, 'cause it gets to be a big
todo.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is it really?
JOHN: Yeah, unfortunately. Tell you what
we'll do. We'll pass it on up there, but don't be too
optimistic about it, because we'll see what happens.
When David and you get on the phone at 7, hopefully, we
might have an answer for you on that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. So you, you don't
think you can do any moves earlier to do anything then?
JOHN: No, not, not in 15 - what have we
got, about 15 minutes here?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's funny about that. I
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JOHN: Nothing is every easy.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I thought it was. I
thought all this time --
JOHN: If things were easy, you'd be out here
by now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, hey, I'm on my way
here pretty quick.
JOHN: You better hurry up 'cause, you
know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, I mean, at least
I see him, you know, doing something finally and we're
all extremely optimistic .
I JOHN: Um-hum. See, what the command is
concerned about, they're afraid that going up there is
dangerous 'cause they never know when one of your folks
up there might take a shot at them or something like
that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Good Lord. I mean, here we
are trying to save your souls and yourselves so you can
have good times forever more and --
JOHN: Um-hum. Well, you know, there, there
are some things in the past that kind of -- remembering
those things that occurred. So that's why they're very
concerned about it. We've kind of lulled ourselves
into security, and boom --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, look at --
JOHN: -- you might get hit.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but look it, I've
always come out here - I mean, when I've gone out to _
drop something off, it's always very plainly. I don't
have a lot of clothes on purposely, so they can see me.
I don't have anything on me.
JOHN: But, remember, you took some stuff in
that time that wasn't supposed to and they were a
little concerned about that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, that's not true. No
one ever - We never had an agreement, did we? And
that was never brought up about anything like that,
never was. And, and since then, I have agreed. And --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you, you know, you've
asked and I've said okay, no problem.
JOHN: Umhum. ~
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But that was with John Cox
and --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- we went to drop - Oh,
by the way, you've got me back on that.
JOHN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: 'Cause I sent you out my
battery pack which was a six-hour battery pack, and
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I've not seen it since, nor the original onehour pack
I have.
JOHN: Well, they couldn't get a good price
on it. The other thing that command is concerned
about, people keep popping out on the roof and going in
and out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's not been happening
lately, has it?
JOHN: well, sure. Just a few minutes ago
didn't your - or whatever got a flashback?
s'r1=:v1-: SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. That "was, that
was in the court, and that, you know, that was
something that - That is not going to be happening. I
mean, that - I --
JOHN: well, anyhow, that's what they're
concerned about. That's what they tell us.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I know. And, John, I
go along with that. You know, we don't need to go
through it again, but, you know, with Dave Jones, that
has stopped, also.
JOHN: Yeah, just a pile of things like that
that occurred that they're worried about. That's why
we can't go up and back as much as you and I would like
to. And it just -- it's a given. Until things are
worked out a little bit better and you guys come out,
things are going to be a problem.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Remember, the only two
places anyone's ever been out, in the first place, has
been in the two places, you know, like - You know
yourself like when we put the banner out, it's there
very clear and, of course, they nail it down, right?
You've seen --
JOHN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. And other than that,
we, you know, we basically state a pattern so you can
get used to and know.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I was mad under both
circumstances.
JOHN: Oh, and I - if I were in your
situation, I can understand --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I found out about Jones and
I found out about this other guy doing that, I -- In
fact, I just talked to David. He didn't know about it,
either.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And he said if the guy --
anybody does something like that again you get to have
them irregardless. '" y
JOHN: Yeah. Here, here's -- You're losing
control of your guys in there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Did you hear -- Let's not
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beat a dead horse now. Now, let's --
JOHN: Things are in the past.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- be civilized with each
other. Okay. Okay.
JOHN: But you know what we're saying here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of course I do.
JOHN: And this is why we can't run in and
run out as much as we'd like to. And --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well, it's up to
you. We thought that's something that you maybe wanted
or --
JOHN: It's not a bad idea.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I thought maybe it would
give Clint a little bit more of a background to hit him
with something even more solid and, and like to do his
homework and say okay, what about this or that?
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: .It's -- I think would have
been real productive.
JOHN: Yeah. what's going to happen, we're
just going to have Clint and David discuss this stuff
and have that worked out. So we can just forget about
the, the tape I guess it is or something like that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David's going to be
extremely disappointed.
JOHN: These are, these are indeed hard
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Let me give you a cryingtimes.
towel here and I'll play a violin symphony.
JOHN: I think you and I are on the same page
on that one.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I know where you're
coming from very clearly.
JOHN: Yeah. I guess it's been three fun-
filled weeks I've been here and there has been some
high spots.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Marriotts or Disneyland?
JOHN: No, no. I'm not out there anymore.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, okay.
JOHN: I'm back on the East Coast.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. when are you heading
out? "
JOHN: Oh, I'll probably have to leave fairly
soon. I thought you guys were going to be coming out
here in the next day or two --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, who knows? who
knows? I mean, he's definitely working on these
things, so, I mean, I don't know. I myself have all
the seals.
JOHN: Umhum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I only have a very cursory
knowledge of the seventh, and it's, it's something I've
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been waiting -- Actually, it is the one that we've been
waiting for. H
JOHN: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And after going through all
six and then, all of a sudden, February the 28th
happens. You get almost to the end and bingo. So
that: why, you know --
JOHN: Okay. I understand how that works.
Tell you what do. I still have to do a few more odd
and end things. Have David call us back at around
7:00.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: And I'll put he and Clint together and
they can solve all the world's problems or something
like that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay, will do it.
JOHN: Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Talk to then.
JOHN: Right, old man.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Goodbye.
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CLINT: HellO?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello. Clint maybe?
CLINT: Speaking.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is Steve.
CLINT: Hello, Steve. How are you?
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, David's right behind
me. I just went to get him. He said just a minute.
He says talk to him just for a minute until I get to
the phone.
CLINT: Okay, we're on the phone, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is this I think this is
the first time I've spoken with you, huh?
CLINT: No, it's not.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's not?
CLINT: No, you've, you've heard my voice.
srzvr SCHNEIDER: on, really? But I never
talked to you, have I?
CLINT: Yes, you have.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Man, how long ago was this?
CLINT: Oh, probably a couple of weeks,
Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wow. I don't remember.
Anyway, so, yeah, the questions were passed on to me
this morning and I passed them on to him. He actually
answered with a tape that he was hoping would have
gotten out to you which you could have looked at and
then even asked deeper, stronger questions.
CLINT: Well, Steve, is, is David there now?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's coming. In fact, he
said get him on the phone, he says, and I'll be right
there. So he'll be here in just a minute or so.
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CLINT: Okay. _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, so I did speak with you
two weeks ago or so?
CLINT: Um-hum. I'm the one that introduced
you on the telephone, you and David both to your
attorneys.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Okay, okay, I do
remember now. Okay. I guess I was thinking more
about, you know, in that time what I was trying to work
out with them and so forth. So, okay.
CLINT: That's understandable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. And so where are
you from, Clint?
CLINT: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Here he is, Clint, here he
is. No more small talk.
CLINT: I appreciate that.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay, just a minute.
HR. KORESH: Hello, Clint.
CLINT: Hello, David.
MR. KORESH: Oh, boy. Good to get a break
here for a second.
CLINT: I'm sure you need it.
MR. KORESH: I made a tape for you but,
evidently, they, they said that there were problems
with the commanders or something.
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CLINT: That's my understanding, also.
HR. KORBSH: Okay, what can I - Wait a
minute. Steve, will you go back up there in my room
and look on those papers, on the top, and his is right
next to the pillow, those, those questions? Have you
ever tried to, to write a book on your, your side?
CLINT: On my side?
HR. KORESH: Yeah.
CLINT: No, I can't recall - on my side,
David, no.
MR. KORESH: It's not easy. Well, Clint, one
of your questions you were asking was, was in regards
to the opening of the seals.
CLINT: Yeah. Let me, let me tell you where
my questions are coming from, David.
MR. KORESH: All right.
CLINT: lnd kind of give you an overview on
that, okay? Ju.c a second. [gap] One moment. One
second. I'll be right with you. [gap]
HR. KORESH: I'm here.
CLINT: Yeah. To make a long story short, my
keys are locked in my car and I've got AAA here opening
the car.
HR. KORESH: I've done that before, too, so
don't worry about it, Clint.
CLINT: Nell, I try not to do that, but when
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one's driving a rental car, that happens. Let me, let
me give you, just so that you and I can, can, you know,
get on the same set of scriptures together, okay?
HR. KORESB: All right.
CLINT: What, what brings me here is not
to -- What brings me talking to you is not to convince
you to do anything, okay, number one. You, you're
coming out of there whenever the Lord leads you to do
it, and I believe that. And I'm not here to try to
influence you one way or the other. As an FBI agent, I
would like to see this resolved and I'd like to see it
done safely and securely for you, for all of your
followers, and everyone out here.
But I've also got an interest in your as a
Christian and I've got an interest in what you've said
and where you're going with it, and I guess my interest
is perked as a fellow Christian just so that I can
better understand you. And, you know, I'm, I'm not
here to duel with you, okay? I'm not here to cross
Bible swords and I'm, I'm here to better understand
your position. And it's more of a personal thing,
almost, than a professional thing. And that's the only
thing that brings me to your doorstep right now, is to
have a better understanding of you and some of your
beliefs.
- MR. KORESH: Well, there's no greater
~.-I92
26
profession than the study of heart to heart, which is
the whole purpose of Christ coming in the first place,
isn't it? I mean, even with Pilate, you know, it was a
heart to heart, wasn't it?
CLINT: Well, okay. You know, I'm, you know,
I've been an instructor, I've taught Sunday School
classes, adult and children, and been involved in, you
know, my own personal church for a lot of years.
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
CLINT: And I guess I'm the first to say that
I, like so many other Christians, have always been --
When one looks at the various books of the Bible to
study and someone says Revelations and there's an oh, I
don't think I'll do it today, maybe tomorrow I'll look
at --
HR. KORESH: It's a hard book.
CLINT: Let me look at Psalms, Proverbs,
because that's nice and comforting, and I can turn to
my children and share Psalms and Proverbs and they can,
they can pick it up very quickly.
MR} KORESH: Simple moral lesson, that's
true.
CLINT: Yeah. And I'm sure you do the same
thing with your children. And they're, they're just --
they're things that anyone can understand. And I think
Revelations is something -- is a book that people need
~_,-45 _ F
27
to understand but shy away from. And I think we, as
Christians, have historically done that. And I'm
interested in what you've done with it and I've got
number of questions. You know, I passed some on to
through -- A
HR. KORESH: Yeah, I have them right here
my hand now.
CLINT: - a fellow that I spoke to last
night And I just would like to get a little bit of
understanding of where - what you believe in those
areas, what your teachings are, and how you feel
influenced in each of those areas.
MR. KORESH: Okay, Clint. Well, first Ofa
you
in
an
all, the points you've made are very noble. You know,
Christ, that's the only thing any man can look to now.
The law was given by Moses.
CLINT: I understand.
MR. XORESH: But grace and truth came by
Jesus Christ.
CLINT: Um-hum.
HR. KORESH: And we see that the whole format
of the, the burden of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is
to put through, through the writings of men this
inspiration of how man can live so selflessly in this
world and how did he get that power and what did he do
with that power? You know, the doing of good, bringing
a .-4
-92¢I - !
Q
man to God through the works
testimony? well, basically,
first students, we deal with
denominations and we have to6 =8
of a man and his
when we start off our
a lot of different
first glorify Christ.
You know, people point to the cross, you
know, and they say well, this man died for our sins.
Well, did he die for our sins or did he die because of
our sins? And what were our sins? You know, Isaiah
53, we hid our faces from him. He was stricken,
smitten of God and we esteemed him so, right? But he
was wounded for our transgressions. You know, the
first commandment of God to Israel from Sinai is hear,
oh, Israel the Lord thy God is one God. You know,
listening is a talent that we as beings have. But did
they listen to Noah? Did they listen to Moses? Did
they hear the prophets? Did they understand what they
were listening to?
Well, the theological world 2,000 years ago
in Judaism was about as theological as anybody can get.
The Pharisees, the Sanhedrim were prolific teachers,
but what they were teaching was based upon what they
perceived by what they were taught. And we know that
inspiration comes not by the will of men, but when God
speaks to a man I don't think God forgets what he says,
like men might forget.
CLINT: Let me ask you this, David, and as we
s--1_ 92
Q
go on, let, let me interject, too, just for my own
edification. when you speak - Now, I'm a teacher and
I teach, also, and there is areas that I teach in that
I've taught many times, that I'm very comfortable
teaching in. It's almost like I've taught it and I
know it and I understand it. I don't need notes, you
know, I don't need slides, I don't need anything else.
I can do these things right off the top of my head.
MR. KORESH: It's a part of you.
CLINT: And I can start either at, you know,
a base level, 101, or I can go up to 202 or whatever
it's going to be. And --
HR. KORESH: Uhhuh.
CLINT: -- one doesn't have to have an
academic background to understand, one has to have a
thirst and a hunger for knowledge.
HR. KORESH: Umhum.
CLINT: And I guess I think that makes the
difference between the good student and someone who's
very simply occupying a seat.
HR. KQRESH: Well, the Christian, the true
disciple, definitely wants to hear the words of Christ,
no doubt about it. I mean, a true disciple's going to
read Matthew, he's going to read Mark, Luke and John.
CLINT: Now, when you teach, David, when you
teach, do you feel that your teaching is anointed? Do
Qu1 ~
. so
you feel that, in essence? Do you get a chance to, do
you get a chance to pray before you teach and then --
MR. KORESH: Well, first of all --
CLINT: -- go into the field that you're
teaching, that everything you say is, is anointed at
the time?
MR. KORESH: Well, here's the thing. Christ
states in the Book of John, my doctrine is not mine,
right? But that which I received of my father. All
through the book of John he consistently repeats how
that if any man will do the will of God he shall know
the doctrine, whether I speak of myself or whether it's
of God. He says, you know, you think that in the
scripture you have life and there they which testify of
me. Christ pointed to the scripture as a written
document foretelling his coming. Okay. Now, when
Christ began to teach the people of his day, did he
pray everytime he began to teach? No.
A lot of my students will ask me, they'll say
excuse me, you didn't have a prayer before you began to
teach.
CLINT: Okay. Now, see, that's -- I, I think
that's one of the questions, though. I mean, you know,
as an --
M. KORESH: Basic Christianity, praying for
the Holy Spirit.
miQ
Q Q .1
CLINT: As an FBI agent, though, there's a
lot of things that I'm called upon to do that I don't
have time to stop and drop to my knees or fold my
hands. I can pray with my eyes open while I'm going
from point A to point B.
HR. KORESH: Always.
CLINT: And, and cover yourself in prayer
before you ever do something.
M. KORESH: Amen. That's the way we're
supposed to walk in the spirit. That's what Christ
told Nicodemus, be more to the spirit like the wind.
You don't know where it comes from but you can see the
effect of it. Just your kind -- Qkay, for instance,
let's say you busted a, a bunch of people in a raid,
all right? There's going to be a person there that's
going to notice the difference of you and how you deal
with them, although in judgment, than they would a
person that doesn't have Christ. That's just a
Christian factor.
CLINT: Well, you know, I like to think in
our conversations that by me hearing your voice and by
you hearing mine there's at least a perception of
belief or honesty that's going to come with it.
HR. KORESH: Well, you asked me a question,
I'm going to honestly give you the honest answers, but
I'm going to direct you to scriptures, though. You
C.1 1
jl_ I 32
see, there's nothing more in the tune of prayer than
praying in the spirit. And if we pray in the spirit,
we have to pray in the mind of God. In other words,
faith is things that are hoped for.
CLINT: The substance of things hoped for.
HR. KORESH: Exactly. Evidence of things not
seen. Abraham did not just say one day I just think
I'll go out into this land out here and God will
probably give it to me one day. No, God directly spake
with Abraham and God directly gave him a promise which
his life was to be made manifest as an avenue of faith.
He was to believe in what God had freely given to him.
So when we say we believe in Christ, we're saying that
we believe by the testament of Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John that this man's witness is above and beyond all
men's witnesses, even the witness of Moses. Why?
Well, because the religious leaders who were
trying to teach God in the days of Christ could in no
ways manifest the spirit of God that Christ could make
manifest. Okay. On the cross, Jesus added an eleventh
commandment. Now, this is what I tell people. They go
what do you mean? I go wait a minute. Christ was the
working of God's nature, the law, in the flesh.
Although he was a doer of the law, he was a keeper of
the law. Be, as the living oracle, did not condemn
anybody, did he?
92..-I0 . as
CLINT: Do you feel bound by "the law"
anymore? _
MR. KORESH: No, I never have. You see, the
question may arise, like in Matthew 23 --
CLINT: No, and understand I'm not just
speaking of the law of the federal court or something
like that. I'm speaking --
HR. KORESH: N0.
CLINT: - in Christian terms of the law.
HR. KORESH: No.
CLINT: Okay.
MR. KORESH: No. See, understand that the
law is something which the New Testament places in the
hearts of men. For instance, Paul says -- For
instance, like in Colossians, the Jews have been
keeping the Sabbath, the new moon, the feast days as a
law, not even understanding what they really were
shadows of. They were prophetic of some event. And we
would have to say that the Sabbath day that Adam and
Eve kept was in no wise the same Sabbath day that Moses
kept in the wilderness. Do you understand?
CLINT: Yeah. Well, I mean, you, you don't
attribute the Sabbath simply to a Sunday, do you?
HR. KORESH: No. What happens is is that --
CLINT: 'Cause I don't, and I would like to
have that commonality.
~.-anI .
Q O =4
HR. KORESH: Oh, well, sure. But the facts
are is that if the Paul the Apostle, before he was Paul
-- he was a murderer, he was a killer of Christians.
CLINT: I understand that.
HR. KORESH: And he had that right by the
civil and, and, and the religious state. It was given
to him. Okay. So on the way to Damascus he saw a
great light. In the light, Christ, says Saul, Saul,
why persecutest thou me - the pricks. Well, now, why
would Christ call himself a prick for? Well, the same
person that spake to Moses in the burning bush, it was
a thornbush, was the same person that was to give Moses
the law, divine nature of God, which is the same person
that was speaking to Saul to convert Saul. »
You see, when we accept Christ we're
accepting forgiveness based upon our ignorance.
Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.
And so we have to leave a broad area between our
knowledge and the knowledge of God so that we might
have grace. And then he says into thy hand I commit my
spirit.
CLINT: My spirit, okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay. so now, when we come to
the final revelation of Jesus Christ, which is that _
which John the Revelator receives on the Isle of
Patmos, remember, the Christian Church is already
~--.¢5
U ' as
established. The Apostolic Church from the Day of
Pentecost has been given the anointing of the Holy
Spirit. And that all relations, Ephesians,
Philippians, Paul keeps striving to bring to the people
the knowledge of the necessity of unity, speak the same
things, our foundation is apostles and prophets, there
should be no schism in the body. And all Christianity
is aware of this, but they don't have the power to
bring it about.
Well, what happens is John the Revelator,
like the other Apostles, receives a message from the
angel of Christ and he gives specific information to
the churches in Asia, Ephesus, you know, Smyrna,
Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea. Now, these
people were alive and well and their works were being
done in their day. But yet, the spirit of Christ
conversed through John, the Apostle, to tell them what
was pleasing to God and what was not. I mean, they had
to have some correction, didn't they?
Well, this is a revelation of Christ just as
important as what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John say, or
Romans or Corinthians or Ephesians. Well, the
difference is, in Chapter 4, and this is where we come
up to maturity in the Christian faith, in Chapter 4
John is informed by the angel to come up hither,
referring to heaven, and I will show you that which
~44O Q :6
must be hereafter. Now, this is where we usually take
off and leave the unwilling behind, because the
subjects brought to view within Chapter 4, 5, and 6
will be subjects that no one has been able to actually
harmoniously bring together in the light of the
challenge they present. Here's a revelation of Jesus
Christ, God on a throne, a judicial system, a jury of
24 elders. The same living creatures that Isaiah saw
in vision in Chapter 6 of Isaiah are brought to view in
this chapter, Chapter 4 of Revelation.
And they say God is holy, holy, holy. We see
in the Verse ll that this God is the creator of all
things. This is the one and only true God spoken of by
the Christian Church, and this is the God that Christ
speaks of. Now, if it's true that in the Apostle
John's writings that Christ consistently referred to
his doctrine not being his own but his father's, then
we have to understand that a revelation to the
gentiles, there is to be another revelation of Jesus
Christ which God gives to him.
So there's no excuse in the latter days. The
God in Chapter 5, Verse 1, the father, your father and
my father, has a book in his right hand and it's sealed
with seven seals. And here's why so many people turn
away from this book. Because the mighty angel, that
which must be after John's day, will question in that
MiA1
O O =1
judiciary system to all those who are holy in heaven
who is worthy to open this book and to loose the seven
seals thereof?
CLINT: Let me, let me ask you a question
here. How do you feel about John - Number one, do you
believe that John wrote Revelations, that he was
inspired to write it?
HR. KORESH: Well -- Z
CLINT: when he was on the island?
MR. KORESH: If he wasn't, then I'm in a lot
of trouble.
CLINT: Yeah, I think --
M. KORESH: But what happened is --
CLINT: Is that what you feel? Do you
believe that, though?
HR. KORESH: Yeah. Well, I know it as a
fact. And here's another reason. In Corinthians --
CLINT: Well, okay. Just - I guess I've got
some questions of interest that I'd like to resolve, or
at least not resolve through you but --
MR. KORESH: Sure.
CLINT: to hear your viewpoint on it.
Now, there are those who say that, you know, that they
make -- say that John when he wrote this that so much
of it was contained in visions that he received. And
I've also heard or read in various writings that
-..-AI
Q . as
throughout your life you've had various dream things
where you've been given visions, too. Do you, do you
find an analogy between the visions or dreams that John
had and your own?
HR. KORESH: Well, remember that what John
states is what John states and is there for any man to
read. John clearly states to the church that while on
the Isle of Patmos he heard a voice behind him, as a
sound of a trumpet, and from that point John is told to
write the things which thou has seen, the things which
are, and the things which shall be hereafter.
CLINT: Okay. Now, John was writing to the
seven churches. Do you feel a responsibility to write
and to whom do you feel the responsibility to write?
MR. KORBSH: Well, it's not a matter of
comparising myself with John. The point of it is is
that John has already stated what John has stated, and
John states that after he wrote to the churches of Asia
their independent counsel given to him by the angel of
Christ, which is known as the Holy Spirit, we see that
John is told by the same angel to be shown a vision up
hither, and the events of that vision then tell of_a
judgment which questions who is worthy to open this
book in the right hand of God. Now, that is something
the seven churches are to be informed of. But --
CLINT: Okay, but where does David come into
92...4I
i
I O :9
this, yourself? y
MR. XORESH: Well, what happens is --
CLINT: No, I, I mean -- I guess I'm talking
personally.
MR. XORESH: In Chapter 22.
CLINT: No, I'm, I'm talking you and I
personally, where were you first introduced into
Revelation and your knowledge and your study and
where -- at what point did you feel you had -- did you
believe you had additional insight? In essence, do you
feel your knowledge? Do you feel that --
MR. KORESH: Well, it's not a feeling.
CLINT: -- your work in there is, is
inspired, is given to you, or what, what brought you to
Revelation, to deal with that more than any other
chapter?
HR. XORESH: Well, that's not, that's not --
CLINT: That, that leads you back, that leads
you back to the rest of the scriptures?
MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, see, here's the
thing. Remember, it's a revelation of who? Jesus
Christ.
CLINT: Understood.
MR. XORESH: Who gave it to him? God. For
what reason? To show to his servants.
CLINT: All right, now, where, where --
,_-a.» 92
. 40
V MR. KORESH: In --
CLINT: -- do you feel, where do you feel,
David -- And I'm asking this in all sincerity. Where
do you feel you stand in the concept of a trinity?
Where do you feel -- What role -- I mean, do you feel
yourself to be -- Are you a prophet? Are you the
Christ? Where -- who is David?
MR. KORESH: Well, remember Matthew 24?
Remember the counsel that your Lord gave the disciples
about the temple? In Matthew 23, the religious leaders
were rejecting Christ and his teachings, weren't they?
CLINT: In Matthew 23?
MR. KORESH: Right. Ye hypocrites, you
scribes and Pharisees, you know, all of that nice
little talk there. .He called them vipers and
everything.
CLINT: Where are you at in 23?
MR. KPRESH: I don't have my Bible with me.
I'm just --
CLINT: Oh, okay. I, I do, so I was just
going to follow with you, but that's all right.
M. KORESH: Okay. Well, in Matthew 23
Christ spake in the temple and he begins to, to upbraid
the, the hypocrisy. He says -- Like, for instance, in
Verse l there he says, you know, the Pharisees, they
sit -- the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat,
=46
'92
I
O O .1
right?
CLINT: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: They think they're equal to
Hoses, don't they? He says whatever they bid you to do
that do, but do not as they do for they say and do not.
CLINT: Do not
HR. KORESH: And then they bind heavy burdens
upon men grievous to be
will not lift them with
know, he begins to tell
They proselyte, go overborne, which they themselves
one of their fingers. You
them all through there.
land and sea to convert one,
and when they convert him they make him - son to hell,
son of hell more than they themselves are. See, these
men were teaching their
knowledge.
CLINT: Okay.opinions of their scriptural
Then we get down to 8, though,
where we read but be not ye called rabbi, for one is
your master --
nn. KORESH: Right.
CLINT: -- Christ and all ye are brothers.
HR. KORESH: A brethren. And those who exalt
themselves shall be abased.
CLINT: Okay.Now --
' ma. KORESH: Okay.
CLINT: - David, stay with me and, and work
through, work through this with me.
~41t
I Q 42
HR. KORESH: Okay. y
CLINT: Is David the Christ?
MR. KORESH: Well, the root and offspring of
David. I, Jesus, have sent mine angel. That's what's
stated in Revelation 22, right? To show unto you these
things in the churches. I am the root, which means I
came before, and the offspring of David, the bright
morning star. That's why in the message to
Philadelphia he says to the Philadelphian Church these
things sayeth he which is holy, he which is true, he
that have the key of David, he that opens and no man
can shut.
CLINT: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Shut and no man can open. Now,
you know in Psalms --
CLINT: Is, is your basic premise, is your
basic premise then if you have the key you must be him?
MR. KORESH: No. What happens is this. No
one but he has the key. .
CLINT: And, and do you have the key?
HR. KORESH: Well, that remains to be seen.
See, in Matthew 23 Christ tells them O, Jerusalem,
Jerusalem, thou which are known as the prophets that
are sent into thee. How often I would have gathered
you together as a hen gathers chicks and you would
not -- See, the problem is with Israel. Israel won't
xi* u
Q I -
listen to the prophets, you know. -- you would not.
Behold, your house has
a temple if the peopleleft you desolate. What good is
of the temple reject the one
whereby the temple is to be built for? What good is
the earthly building when the spirit of God is not
there? If they reject Christ, who are they rejecting?
The word of God made flesh.
CLINT: And I look in Matthew 23:34 where it
said I send unto you prophets and wise men and scribes.
MR. KORESH: Scribes and you'll stone them
and kill them and persecute them from city to city, but
upon you may come all the blood shed upon the earth
from righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah to the
son of Barachiah who they slew between the porch and
the alter.
CLINT: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
Zechariah's message in
says you shall not see
say blessed is he that
CLINT: Yes.
MR. KORESH:Definitely. They didn't accept
his day, either. Okay. So it
me henceforth until you shall
cometh in the name of the Lord.
Now, if they don't listen to a
person who claims to come in the name of the Lord, they
won't know.
CLINT: You, you know what we run into a lot
of times, David, and what I question as an FBI agent
-. .4U
4"..
I " 44
many times is that over the, you know, 25 years or so
I've encountered a lot of people who have_either
claimed that they functioned under some type of divine
guidance --
MR. KORESH: Divine inspiration, yeah.
CLINT: - inspiration, whatever it might be.
And I guess the question I always ask is some day when
you and I and everybody else stands before the Lord and
I can - part of me says he's going to look at us and
say, you know, I kept sending my prophets, my
messengers to you and everytime I did that you didn't
hear what they had to say and you had something else
for them, someplace else for them to go and their word
wasn't heard. In essence, have we seen many messengers
that have come and their message has gone unanswered,
or very few messengers?
MR. KORESH: Well, let me, let me state this.
We need to listen to Matthew the best we can, right?
He wrote of Christ, didn't he?
CLINT: Yes, he did.
MR. KORESH: We need to listen to Mark, Luke
and John first. You know, we need to listen to what _
Acts states 'cause we know on the Day of Pentecost
those that believed him to they gave ye power to become
sons of God. The Pentecost was something to be
undenied, correct? And we see the conversion of the
w._~OI _
Q ' 45
Apostle Paul and the mighty works he did in the name of
Christ, claiming none power to himself but only unto
God. And then we see Romans, how Paul says I am not
ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it's the power of
God.
I mean, the gospel of Christ is not the
reasoning of men, it's the power of God unto salvation.
Everyone that believes. Christ is more than just a
preacher. Christ is more than just a teacher. Christ
is something that is more. So we read all the New -
We need to hear them first, because how do we know
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson or Oral Roberts or David
Koresh or Steve Schneider can really tell us anymore
than what's already been told?
So we finally are going to all eventually
come to the Book of Revelation, aren't we? And in that
book we're going to find that what must be hereafter is
going to be a revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave
to him, and it's going to be according to seven seals
that you and every other man in this world can see
pertains to a red horse, black horse, red, pale, and so
forth.
CLINT: And, and I've also got a
responsibility to be able to discern false prophets.
MR. KORESH: Exactly.
CLINT: Be that an Oral Roberts or be that
~.-4~
anyone else who might -- Jimmy Swaggert or whatever one
may believe or may not believe.
mentioned Pat Robertson. I, you
find a ground that is not common
enjoy his teachings.
H. XORESH: on, I do,
CLINT: You know.
um. xonssa: Don't get
men --!
46
You know, you
know, I don't want to
with you and I, but I
too.
me wrong. These
CLINT: You've got to understand, you know,
I'm, I'm a very basic King James type of Christian.
MR. KORESH: Fundamentalist. And that's
good.
CLINT: But there are so many different
versions of the Bible that one can use, but --
HR. KORESH: Translations.
CLINT: -- but I like -- I'm very comfortable
in King James. ~
MR. KORESH: The Bible of the Reformation --
CLINT: And I haven't gotten away from that.
MR. KORESH: The Bible of the Reformation is
one of the most -- When you go to Israel and study with
the greatest rabbis and you read
CLINT: Yeah.their translations --
HR. KORESH: - it's almost word for word
King James. That should tell you something.
v.-.11 ' y
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CLINT: Well, you know what I have to, what I
have to work with is you've spoken to many people here
and, number one, I just don't want to be one more
person. I want you to hear my voice and I want you to
understand that I'm concerned, truly concerned with you
and everyone in there. But I have similar concerns for
everyone out here and all of mankind that I believe you
do. And yet, I speak to other FBI agents you've spoken
to, David, and I try very hard to understand you.
I've had an opportunity to read some of your
writings, none of which I have here in front of me, but
I have. And I've been told by some of the other agents
you've spoken to that they feel at times you've
identified yourself as the Christ or the lamb of God.
Now, I am not saying that's not true. I'm saying --
HR. KORESH: We don't know.
CLINT: I'm saying I, I need a point to begin
and to move on from that point as to who you are.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Christ has the key of
David, that's what he says, right? He can open, and
once he opens no man can shut. Do you understand?
CLINT: David, I understand that.
MR. KORESH: Okay. So let's turn to Psalms
11 real quick and let's see what King David of old
stated while under inspiration. Okay. I've got me a
Bible now, okay?
7 3
P. Q .8
CLINT: Okay. y
HR. KORESH: And I'll go -- I won't quote,
I'll just read, I'll just read it right out of the King
James.
CLINT: Okay, wait a minute. I'm going over
to Psalms.
MR. KORESH: This is Psalms.
CLINT: Okay, I know. I'm in Psalms. You've
got to understand, my Bible's pretty worn, so --
MR. KORESH: Well, that's good.
CLINT: Yes. I
MR. KORESH: I like that. It's bad when
someone comes that's been a Christian for 20, 30 years
and they've got a nice crisp one and the pages won't
open up.
CLINT: It's, it's hard to read in mine
because I've writtan in so much.
MR. KORESH: That's even better.
CLINT: I'm in Psalms 11, David.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Okay, Psalms ll over
here. I've got one of these kind that has that real
thin paper.
CLINT: As does mine.
M. KORESH: Okay. Now, David was inspired,
which Chronicles tell you, Kings, and in Psalms 11
David states in the Lord put I my trust. Now, the
92..~a0
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question is was he serving the right Lord? I mean, we,
we believe he was because Christ came as his offspring,
right?
CLINT: Well, when he says in the Lord then
he's referring -- do you believe he's referring to God?
MR. XORESH: He's referring --
End of Tape #229.!
viiK I
Q Q 1
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #230
4/15/93
7:33 P.M. - 8:17 P.M.
--ad¬ ¥
I 5 2
Tape 230
MR. KORESH: - Asians and David sees things
of heavenly nature. Okay. "In the Lord, put all my
trust. How say he to my soul flees a bird to your
mountain." Of course, the mountain that David resided
on was Mount Zion. Correct?
CLINT: That's correct.
MR. KORESH: Then David says "For lo, the
wicked bend their bow. They have fitted their arrow
upon the string that they may privately shoot at the
upright at heart." Okay. Well, if the foundations be
destroyed, what can the righteous do? What are these
foundations that David's talking about? The Lord is in
his holy temple. Is that true? The Lord's throne is
in heaven. Is that true? In Revelation 4 and 5,
David's offspring, Christ, is in heaven. He takes the
book from the right hand of the father, and it was that
Christ who gave David his kingdom, who anointed David.
CLINT: Now, David, you just, you just went
to Revelations 4 and 5. Now, I'm in Revelations 4 now.
MR. KORESH: Uh-huh.
CLINT: And where are you?
MR. KORESH: Well, I was just referring to
it. Let's, let's finish Psalms 11.
CLINT: Well, okay. When you give me a
reference, though, I'm going to go to the reference,
s.-plI ;
because --r
C 3
MR. KORESH: Okay.
CLINT: -- I like to stay with you.
MR. KORESH: All right. Well, then we'll go
to the reference after we
I'm showing you this is a
know that David knew what
CLINT: I know,finish the Psalm. This --
foundation so that we can
he was talking about.
and I, I've just, over the
years, you know, have really tried to stay with one
whose teaching and instructing. And when they make
reference to something, I, I really want my eyes to see
the word.
MR. KORESH: Okay. So in Verse 4 of Psalms
11, "The Lord is in his holy temple. The Lord's throne
is in heaven. His eyes behold, his eyelids try the
children of men. The Lord tryeth the righteous, but
the wicked in him that loveth violence his soul hated.
Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and
brimstone and the horrible tempest. This shall be the
portion of their cup, for the righteous Lord loveth
righteousness and his countenance doth behold the
upright." Okay.
So in the Book of Revelation, where all the
books of the Bible meet and end there, every prophetic
utterance meets and ends in the Book of Revelation,
we're going to see. In Revelation, Chapter 4, John is
». .~Q4 92e>, .
D Q 4
told by his accompanying angel to come up hither and
envision. John beholds a door was open in heaven.
This is Chapter 4, Verse 1.
CLINT: Chapter 4, Verse 1.
MR. KORESH: "And the first voice which I
heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me,"
It's loud and clear, right? "which says come up hither
and I will show thee things which must be hereafter."
Must be. Every Christian hope is in this.
CLINT: It must be?
MR. KORESH: Must be.
CLINT: Therefore, it will be?
MR. KORESH: It will be. It is. And
immediately I, John, "was in the spirit and behold a
throne was in heaven." What must be? A throne in
heaven. And one sitting on a throne. Must be. "And
he that was set upon the throne was to look upon as a
jasper and a -- stone." Now, I'm sure you know in your
studies of the Psalms and Prophets God is referred to
as the rock, correct?
CLINT: That's correct, David.
M. KORESH: "And there was a rainbow round
about the throne, in fact like unto to an emerald." So
there's no reason to be confused here.
CLINT: Okay. Now, what, what do you say the
significance of the colors show, when we go from a --
~-Q' '1,
I Q 5
from jasper which -- to an emerald, from a yellow to a
green? What, what significance is there in --
MR. KCRESH: Well, actually, in the Aramaic
manuscript, which is the actual language of the
disciples, Christ, and in the time when the original
copies were written, the emphasis is implied upon the
substance of how these things work according to Ezekiel
4. Now, you see, we're dealing with mankind who's made
of the dust of the earth, on earth, correct?
CLINT: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: But when we deal with the
redeemed body or the celestial body, we're dealing with
brilliancies of creation that man, without
understanding the formulas of creation, such as the 12
foundations of the City of God, how the stones are,
like, for instance, in Ezekiel 28 Lucifer had these 9
stones as his covering, such as in -- For instance, a
better illustration is is that the high priest on his
chest wore these 12 stones. It has something to do
with the substance of creation, what man
physiologically is made out of.
So what I do before I get into those deeper
things with my students, as I go into the more simpler
things of the obvious, such as these brilliant,
beautiful stones show God as a rock. It doesn't say he
was a jasper or -- stone, but the prophet was implying
~--Ukg 2
I I 6
that as the brilliancies of these polished which were
used in their day for jewelry or ornament is God is as
brilliant, or more so, than these. But he's solid,
he's hard.
And the thing of it is it says he saw this
rainbow round about the throne that was like a jasper
and a -- stone. You see?
CLINT: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: A rainbow that was like an
emerald. Okay. So, so the keynote is that well, okay,
so God is grand doer, God is powerful. This is no
slouchy God, this God here does not have a defaulted
dress code. This is the highest of the high. You
can't get any higher judge than this. Okay? And this
rainbow round about the throne is like unto to an
emerald. Now, we know that a rainbow is created by the
refraction of light, but, really, the lesson is simple.
In the beginning of time, God made everything by his
word. We know that by faith. Okay?
CLINT: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And then the time came when God
spake to his servant Noah and God said I will bring an
end to all things that I have made.
CLINT: Understood.
MR. KORESH: I'll bring a flood. And the
world at large says no, you won't. And he did. An
92. ~11vs
92 .3
1" 7
impossible thing to place in the reversal of creation.
The laws of creation were broken far beyond what man
could comprehend the laws to stand upon. And so then
God says to Noah after the flood I will never bring
again a flood and destroy all flesh upon the earth.
And man, as he progressed, began to wonder and question
and says yes, he will, cause the obvious was that God
could.
CLINT: But then how, how did he tell us that
the world would be destroyed the next time?
MR. KORESH: Well, the keynote is, is this,
before we get into that point. The point is is that
then they began to build a tower. Their modem of
salvation, their plan to escape impending doom, what
they thought to be a judgment of God, was totally based
upon their own confusion, and that's what was called
the Tower of Babel
CLINT: Right. ._
MR. KORESH: So the rainbow is a memorial of
God's word. And if we turn away from God's word and
God's will, we're going to conjure up ideals and
thoughts about God
and we're going to
Babylon. So here,
in, right, Brother
throne and there'sthat are not according to the truth,
be a part of a system known as
this is the one God that we believe
Clint? And this God sits on a
a rainbow, a memorial of his
sariII ;
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everlasting covenant, his word. Okay? Now --
CLINT: Now, as, as we go, I'd like to be
able to answer you, too, you know. My whole purpose
here was to understand. And I see you in a very
comfortable teaching position, and I think that's,
that's where you're most comfortable. And yet, I'd
like to have the chance to interact as we go back and
forth, also.
MR. KORESH: Sure. Go ahead.
CLINT: Okay? No, that's okay. It's just I,
I sense that you're asking a question, but you're
not -- If, if you're making a statement, I want to
understand that and go on. But if you're asking a
question and I'm thinking of my reaction to it, you're
into the next sentence before I can give the reaction
back.
MR. KORESH: Okay. So the point, the point
that I made was is that this God definitely has a
memorial round about his throne, doesn't he?
CLINT: Yes, he does.
M. KORESH: He is the God who brought the
world to an end once and he can do it again, can't he?
CLINT: He's got the 24 elders sitting around
him --
MR. KORESH: Exactly. Now, we have a
judiciary here. "And upon the seats are found 4 and 20
s--Q.* !
0 9
elders sitting clothed in white raiment, and they had
on their heads crowns of gold, too." So these people
are highly esteemed in this judiciary system. "And out
of the throne sees lightnings, thunderings and voices."
So we know this is the God who brought the flood. "And
there were seven lamps of fire burning before the
throne, which are the seven spirits of God. Before the
throne, there was a sea of glass, likened to crystal.
And in the midst of the throne and round about the
throne were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
The first beast is like a lion, second beast like a
calf, the third beast has the face of man, and the
fourth beast was like a flying eagle."
You know, this is one of the subjects that
Isaiah 6 brings to view in Isaiah's prophecy. "And the
four beasts had each of them six wings about him and
they were full of eyes within and they rest not day and
night, saying holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty,
which was, is, and is to come."
CLINT: Okay, there we're talking about the
future, the past. We're talking about the --
MR. KORESH: The God who's in charge of all
time, past, present, and future. "And when those
beasts give glory, honor, and thanks to him that sat on
the throne who lives forever and ever, the 4 and 20
elders fall down before him that sat on the throne and
an-1. 92§ 5 >
10worshiphim that liveth forever and ever and cast their
crowns before the throne, saying thou art worthy oh,
Lord, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou
has created all things. And for thy pleasure they all
were created."
So the subject is obvious in the simple
matter in that this is definitely a revelation of what
must be hereafter is an awesome event of God residing
on his throne and the prestige of being a participant
of this, to be able to even realize in a small glimmer
of the authority of this God. Then the subject begins
to clarify when it says "And I saw in the right hand of
him that sit on the throne a book written within and on
the back side sealed with seven seals.
Now, why does God sit on a throne? Why is
there a jury there? Well, the reason being is there's
a question to be asked. "And I saw a strong angel
proclaiming with a loud voice."
CLINT: Do you believe that to be the Angel
Gabriel?
MR. KORESH: Well, if I was to give you an
opinion on it, you know, our opinions are very, very
small.
CLINT: Well, I mean, do you feel -- If you
said it would be an opinion or do you know if --
MR. KORESH: Well, I know it as a --
y
O 0 11
CLINT: -- as a fact?
MR. KORBSH: I know it as a fact.
CLINT: Okay.
MR. KORESH: But the thing of it is is that,
see, if I was to make a statement that I knew who that
angel was, then I might as well go ahead and make a
statement that I know who that God is. Do you see what
I'm saying? And who those 24 elders are.
CLINT: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And who those living creatures
are.
CLINT: Well, I guess what, what - The
question to me, David, that begs the answer is if you
know the answer, why not give it? 1
MR. KORESH: Well, because it wouldn't
benefit you because even if I said yes or no, you'd say
well, how does David think he knows? I mean, you know,
it doesn't make any difference at this point.
CLINT: Well, okay.
MR. KORESH: When I start opening --
CLINT: Getting past that, just know that it
does make a difference. Okay? It does make a
difference. Whatever we talk about makes a difference.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Well, then scripture here
doesn't tell you who the angel is at this point,
correct?
s.-g,= y
Q Q 1.
CLINT: That's correct. -
MR. KORESH: So, therefore, scripture has not
taken a burden to really emphasize too much about the
angel. Okay. But as we progress on, we're going to
get more emphasis on the lamb and the subjects of God,
the Father, that we're giving to the lamb. Within
these subjects, if I'm able to open them up to you,
then you'll understand more about the elders, the
seraphim, God on the throne, and this angel who asks
this question. We know he's a mighty angel, he's a
strong angel, and he states not on earth but in heaven
the question as to all those who are in heaven.
CLINT: Okay, David, let me ask you this.
How can one differentiate, how can one take a very
learned Biblical scholar, how can one take, as I
respect Pat Robertson, how can one take a learned
person like that and have him explain and if we say
open the seven seals -- To me, you know, to me, David,
opening the seven seals is analogous to opening my mind
so I understand --
M. KORESH: Exactly.
CLINT: -- the content of that. And if one
-- If you -- But if others have that same key, they
have the academic -- the ability, they have the
spiritual ability, they, they have been covered in such
that they can open my mind to those seals, then how
s -ii
Q 0 13
does one discern the various prophets?
MR. KORESH: Well, what takes place is you'll
find that as we progress, scripture says no man in
heaven nor on earth, neither under the earth, was able
to open, neither to look thereon. If that is true,
then only when Revelation 22 is fulfilled, which states
Christ says I come, my reward is with me to give unto
every man.
CLINT: Wait a minute. You're in Revelations
22?
MR. KORESH: Revelation 22.
CLINT: Verse?
MR. KORESH: This is over here -- Still in
Verse 16.
CLINT: Okay. You were in seven, I think,
but, okay. You want to go to 16 and then back to 7?
MR. KORESH: Right. Let's go to 16.
"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify to you these
things in the churches. I am the root and offspring of
David, the bright morning star." Okay?
CLINT: Now, we can also look back in, in --
2:28 --
MR. KORESH: Okay.
CLINT: -- and we have "Again I will give him
the morning star." So, so we have that twice.
MR. KORESH: Okay. The promise to the
s-Q4ql" I, 14
churches of Asia. Now, we see here in Verses 7 of
Chapter 22 the subject dealing with the river, the
water of life that comes from the City of God, right?
CLINT: Wait, wait. You're in Verse 7 of
what? Of 22?
MR. KORESH: Twenty-two.
CLINT: Behold I come quickly. Blessed is
he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this
book."
MR. KORESH: And you can't keep what you
don't understand, correct?
CLINT: That's correct.
MR. KORESH: Okay. "And I John saw these
things and heard them, and when I had heard and seen, I
feel down to worship before the feet of the angel which
showed me these things." And this angel is the angel
that Christ sent, right?
CLINT: Okay. Aha do you think that Christ
-- Is your interpretation, is your reading of this that
there is only one who can open the minds and allow one
to retain the knowledge of the seals? Or do you think
there may be multiples who can do it at various levels?
MR. KORESH: No, there is, there is only one
lamb --
CLINT: Yeah, but --
MR. KORESH: - in heaven.
~..¢n' _ !
Q I 15
CLINT: That's -- Okay. And I, I agree with
that, but then you can have multiple individuals that
can give you prayerful, inspired, covered insight. And
for those of us who, who are seeking that type of, that
type of knowledge, there seems to be multiple people
who are willing and who are learned and have the
ability to share that. And where I think our challenge
comes -- And even in this situation we're involved in
right now, David, the challenge comes is discerning who
is this person and does he believe what he says or --
MR. KORESH: Well, let's look at Verse 18.
CLINT: Okay, let me say just, just in all
honesty, if, if you're not who the scriptures say this
person is, if you're not that person, if you're not the
lamb, then what -- then who are you? If you're not a
lamb, you may be a prophet. And if you're not a p
prophet, you may he a con man.
MR. TJRESH= If I'm trying to show you the
seven seals, right?
CLINT: But why --
M. KORESH= Then I'm trying to teach you --
CLINT: But the question is why do you choose
to show on the seven seals? Do you do it because you
feel - because you are inspired --
MR. KORBSH: That way you'll know who I am.
You see, if people don't listen, like in, in Proverbs
Q.-Q92
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30, where, where Solomon says -- Well, look at, Solomon
states very clearly who's ascended to heaven? Who's
descended? You know, who's bound the wind in his fists
and held the waters in his garment? What is his name?
What is his son's name, if you can tell?
CLINT: Okay.
MR. KORESH: And he says the word of the Lord
is pure.
CLINT: Okay, David, I, I'm here to listen
and to share with you, but I start to pick up that
you're talking down to me, and I won't do that to you.
MR. KORESH: No, no, no, no. No, Clint.
CLINT: And, and I ask you not to do that to
me.
MR. KORESH: Clint, I'm not talking down to
you, but what we're, what we're, what we're, what we're
trying to do here, what's happening, Clint, is that
with a lot of people who think they know the
scriptures --
CLINT: Yes, there are.
MR. KORESH: -- every time I --
CLINT: In fact, in fact, there are a lot of
people that do know the scriptures.
CLINT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. The
seven seals are something reserved. Peter says in
First Peter that there's a salvation that's reserved in
Q-1a
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Q 17
heaven for you, right? For the last time. And he _
states wait for the graces to come to you at the
revelation of Jesus Christ. The seven seals are a
subject that deals with the sin of the 144,000, and
it's going to be the same confrontation that it was
2,000 years ago. All the Pharisees, all the Sanhadrian
claimed to be inspired. They claimed to have spiritual
insights. They taught portions and pieces of what they
considered to be prophetic truth, but when Christ came
he made a testament far beyond their reach.
Now, that's why Revelation has one of the
most greatest warnings of any other book of the Bible.
See in Verse 18 of Chapter 22, it says right there --
CLINT: Wait a minute, 18 in 22. "For I
testify unto every man that heareth the words of the
prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these
things God shall add unto him the plagues that are
written in this book."
MR. KORESH: Serious.
CLINT: Of course it is.
"MR. KORESH: "Any if any man shall take away
from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall
take away his part out of the book of life and out of
the holy city and from the things which are written in
this book." We cannot add our opinions to this book,
and it is almost a foolish statement for someone to say
mi:' _.
0 18
they know the meaning of this book unless they are 100
percent sure with God that they know the meaning.
CLINT: Do you think there are others, David,
that understand the meanings of this book?
MR. KORESH: Absolutely not. I've traveled
all around the world and one of the things that's got
me into the most trouble is is that I began to open the
seals, they see these things. You see, we've got to
start where it starts. It says "He that testifieth
these things says surely I come quickly." I come
quickly. And what does he bring? His reward. Isaiah
40 - Isaiah said the Lord will come with a strong
hand, his reward is with him, his work before him.
what is his work? Gathers his flock like a shepherd.
I mean, in the latter part of Isaiah, the
Lord proclaimed to the end of the world, saying through
thy salvation cometh, his reward is with him. I mean,
we see that Christ receives reward that no man, zero,
not, can reveal. John couldn't reveal it. He could
only reveal the skeleton of the structure that would be
in scripture, for men to take heed to the final
warning. In the days of the Apostles -- Look there in
Corinthians, look there in Philippians and all the
different writings, there were all kinds of people who
rose up saying that they were inspired of God, they had
spiritual insights.
1--IQBut the acid test is the opening of the
seals, bringing to men a knowledge that God had
declared to his servants the prophets, harmonizing the
prophetic teachings to the perspective seal and trumpet
as found in Revelations Chapters 6 and Chapters 8 and
so forth.
CLINT: And I guess from that, David, that I
find there are teachers and there are preachers and
there are scholars of the book that in, in an academic
way can open those seals --
MR. KORESH: Okay.
CLINT: -- as far as the understanding of the
seals. You know, I, you know, to me, you know, I've,
I've heard that it's been said that you have said, in
fact, that we are somewhere between the fifth seal or
the sixth seal.
MR. KORESH: I didn't say that.
CLINT: Okay. Tell me -- Okay. That, that
would help me. Have you opened the fifth seal? Do you
feel that the fifth seal has been opened, if you don't
want to ascribe it to yourself?
MR. KORESH: Well, now, wait a minute, Clint,
here's the next statement, okay? Now, remember that
the seals are first opened in heaven --
N CLINT: Um-hum. . ,
MR. KORESH: -- as subjects presented before
~~-Q:; I
20
the judiciary throne. The lamb on the sea of glass
opens all seven seals. when the seventh seal is
opened, a truth is revealed about the angel at the
alter, and then begins a revelation of the trumpets.
When the seventh trumpet sounds in Revelation 11, the
subject is the kingdoms of this world and of his
Christ. This world had become the kingdoms of our Lord
and of his Christ. And then begins to open up a '
mystery about the sanctuary in heaven where a woman
comes out and she is the one that brought forth the
manchild who was to rule all nations with a rod of
iron.
And the dragon makes war against the woman
and the dragon was cast down, because the manchild is
taken up to God to his throne.
CLINT: All right. You know, David, you're
in Chapter 11. Now, in Chapter ll, Verse 3, where it
talks about the two witnesses --
MR. KORESH: Um-hum.
CLINT: -- there are some who say those two
witnesses may have been Moses and Elijah. Now, I've
encountered a number of years ago a couple, a husband
and wife, who in a place called Jasper, Arkansas,
indicated that they were, they were -- I don't know if
you've ever heard of them. They were Kate and Keith
Higler phonetic sp.!. Did you ever hear of them?
~-viK i v
/ 92.l ,.,_ 2 1
i MR. KORESH: NO. I
CLINT: Okay. They had spent, they had spent
a number of years -- In fact, they had said they had
traveled and they had prophesied for the 1,203 score
days.
MR. KORESH: Clothed in sack cloth?
CLINT: Yes. Yes. And they felt that they
had been inspired to do this, that they were the two
witnesses spoken of in this and had, in their own way,
confronted society at that time. And they -- If you,
you know, I've seen a video tape of them and if you
listen to them and if you hear what they have to say,
they sound, in their own way, in their own knowledge
and interpretations of the scriptures, very lucid. And
these same people in this particular case brought about
their own death at the hands_of the authorities,
guaranteeing their followers that, as in Revelations
Chapter ll, Verse 9, that in three-anda-half days what
would happen to them.
MR. KORESH: What happened?
CLINT: Well, I mean, what, what does the
scripture say would happen and what do you think would
have happened?
MR. KORESH: No, we know they didn't
resurrect, did they?
CLINT: No, they didn't, David, but they
~.-A92
Q O 2.
believed -- they -- I honestly, totally believe they
believed what they said.
MR. KORESH: Exactly.
CLINT: They believed what they said. And if
one would hear them and if one would hear their
teachings and what they had gone through in their life
to this point and the analogies between their life and
the scriptures, one could say that's, that's
understandable, they, they -- that they would believe
that. But it wasn't true.
MR. KORESH: No, it wasn't.
CLINT: Three-and-a-half days later they were
still in the ground.
MR. KORESH: Um-hum. And still so.
CLINT: And still -- Well, one was cremated,
but -- I don't know where her ashes are, but the other
is still in the ground.
MR. KORESH: And it's sad, isn't it?
CLINT: Well, it's, it's sad in a number of
different ways. It's -- I, I guess as a Christian I
like to think that people have the insight and that
there are those out there who really feel their lives_
are divinely inspired, as I do mine and as I believe
you, you know, yours is, too. But it's the -- What's
the purpose of that inspiration and what are our lives
to accomplish? And that, you know, is it, you know, to
92-Cf . 1
/"92 ,D 0 23
me it's a greater knowledge of the scriptures, it's
growing more Christ-like. That's -- It's -- In an
earthly example, it's setting an example for my wife
and for my children.
You know, I, I can, you know, I can name off
for you the various things that I believe to be true
and that I'm responsible for in my life and I'm
supposed to accomplish as a Christian. But, you know,
those are on a level as a man, you know, there's so
much I can do and I understand that. I can accomplish
X in my life. If I lead people to Christ, that's my
responsibility. If I'm a missionary to share the word,
that's my responsibility.
But is it to believe that I'm one of, you
know, I'm one of the two witnesses? In this case, no,
that, that's -- I haven't had that laid on me, to say
that or to believe that or to function in that way.
MR. LQRESH: Right. Well, the persons --
they probably totally renounced the fact that before
Chapter 11 is brought to view, which is a part of the
sixth trumpet which interjects Chapter 10, the little
book being opened, the seven thunders being uttered was
a mystery of God that he declared to his servants the
prophets. Now, clearly, in Zechariah these two
witnesses are brought to view, revolving around the
subject of a rock with seven eyes and a candlestick
92--A5
'" /10» 24
saying this is the word of the Lord -- saying not by
might nor by power, by my spirit the seven eyes of
Zechariah had somewhat to say about the same revelation
of Revelation 4 and S.
So if whatever Zechariah had to say is true,
about the rock with seven eyes, God saying that he
would write engraving thereof, then it must be true
that God will sit on a throne and he does have a book
and he did write it and it would be given to the lamb
who has seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God.
If the way Christ sees is the way we're supposed to
see, then we have to understand thoroughly the seven
seals. Otherwise, the events of Chapter 11 will be
misinterpreted, just like Chapters 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5,
4, 3, 2, 1.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave
to him is nothing other than that. There is one final
revelation of Christ, the latter reign, which is to
come in the end of the world and the subject will be a
revelation of Christ according to the prophets by the
hand of the lamb himself. Thatfs why in Matthew 24
when Christ forewarns of false prophets, many shall
come in my name saying I am Christ, shall deceive many,
he tells them that if they shall say --
CLINT: Now, wait, let me, let me skip over
here. You're in Matthew --
sup5 f 92
*5 Ow 25
MR. KORESH: Twenty-four. _
CLINT: -- 24.
MR. KORESH: Let me turn over there real
quick, too.
CLINT: Okay. And what verse are you at,
David? '
MR. KORESH: Let me get it over here. Okey
doke. He's just gone out of the temple in Verse 1,
right?
CLINT: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: He'd already proclaimed that the
house was desolate in Chapters 23, because, you know,
they don't listen to the prophets, right?
CLINT: Okay. Well, I mean, if you go back
to 39, "Behold your house is left unto you desolate."
Is that what --
MR. KORESH: Okay. All right. Now, in
Chapter 24, Jesus went out and departed from the
temple. His disciples came to him to show him the
buildings of the temple. Isn't this a beautiful
temple, Lord? He said to them "See not all these
things? verily I say unto you, there shall not be left
here one stone upon another." H
CLINT: Okay. Has that happened yet, though?
M. KORESH: Oh, definitely. Definitely.
The temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
92....,p92 l
1 U 26
CLINT: No, no. I mean, do you see an
analogy between another temple that need be destroyed?
Do we have --
MR. KORESH: Well, instead of getting into
the theological deciphering of what Christ is saying,
let's just simply pretend that we're sitting right
there with him while he's telling the disciples this on
the Mount of Olive. Okay? In other words, he's
telling - he just walked out of the temple. He's
upset. He just got through, you know, scolding the
religious teachers, right? And now the disciples want
to, you know, point how that this temple there in, in
Jerusalem that Rome had helped build, how beautiful it
is. And he's telling them, you know, this temple is
going to be desolate. Okay?
And it says in Verse 3, "And as he set upon
the Mount of Olives the disciples came him privately,
saying tell us, what shall these things be? What shall
be the sign of they coming?" I mean, who do they think
was going to destroy it? He'd already said earlier in
his ministry he'd destroy this temple and in three days
rise it up.
CLINT: Yeah.
M. KORESH: They didn't understand yet, did
they?
CLINT: No, they didn't.
-~'!592~ /
2.,
MR. KORESH: And the end of the world.
Well --
CLINT: And when we get into four where he
cautions us to take heed --
MR. KORESH: Take heed.
CLINT: -- that's not just a caution, that's
a responsibility. y
MR. KORESH: Yes, to the disciples that no
man deceive you. Why? For many shall come in my name
saying I am Christ and shall deceive many. And you
shall hear wars and rumors of wars. See that you be
not troubled." I mean, that's what a true Christian
is, right?
CLINT: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: So all these things must come to
pass, but the end is not yet for nation shall rise
against nation, kingdom against kingdom. There shall
be famines and pestilences and earthquakes in different
places.
CLINT: Okay. Is, is that end drawing near?
MR. KORESH: He says but not your heart be
troubled.
CLINT: No, no. I know. And, and my heart's
not troubled.
MR . KORESH: Right.
CLINT: You know, I mean, that's,
92-I1 . I
/' .- 2e
that's -- the end drawing near is not a trouble to me.
MR. KORESH: Yeah. You see. when Rome began
to fall and became Europe, I mean there was nothing but
wars and rumors of wars. But, but he says all these
things are the beginning of sorrows. Verse 9, "Then
shall they deliver you up to the afflicted and shall
kill you. You shall be hated of all nations for my
namesake." Christians are to be hated. "Then shall
many be offended and shall betray one another."'
I mean, if you've got to die for it, I mean,
that puts a different light on it. And shall hate one
another." A
CLINT: Well, you know, that, that depends
what value you put on life and do you feel that you've
accomplished everything that your -- that you've been
put on this earth to accomplish.
MR. KORESH= Well, that's what we question
about Christ. Christ may not have accomplished
everything he set out to do.
CLINT: Yeah, but did he accomplish
everything his father set out for him to do? That's
the --
MR. KORESH: No.
CLINT: That's the issue.
MR. KORESH: Well, no. There's a reason why,
and the Hebrews goes to this. But here's the thing.
-.--an1
i'3
He's going to finish it from heaven, though. And
here's the thing. "And many false prophets shall rise
and shall deceive many. And because -- shall abound,"
everyone breaking the law, "the love of many shall wax
cold. But the Christians have to realize that he that
shall endure the end, the same shall be saved." You've
got to keep that old heart
CLINT: I agree,going, right, Clint?
David.
MR. KORESH: "And this gospel of the kingdom
shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto
all nations, and then shall the end come. When ye
therefore shall see the abomination of desolation
spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, standing in the holy
place."
CLINT: Okay. Now, let's -- When you - When
you speak of preaching to all nations, how do you
interpret or how do you --
to attach to it, whatever,
with it, that's fine. But
all nations and the period
preached to and the lengthAnd whatever word you want
iwhatever verb we want to put
the, the need to preach to
of time that they need to be
of the message that needs to
be heard, how, how do you define that?
MR. KORESH: Well, later on, remember after
Christ's resurrection, he reiterates over these
subjects. Then they understood a lot of things they
didn't understand in his ministry before. But he tells
n»-'4. 1
30
them "Who so readeth, let him understand." Now, that
was a note put in by a translator. But still, in other
words, what did Daniel say about Christ? What did
Daniel say about the fourth empire, Rome? What did
Daniel say about the abomination of desolation? Well,
Thessalonians talks somewhat about it, in First and
Second Thessalonians. V
But Christ goes on to say a part of this
gospel, which we know will continue on through Romans,
Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, you
know, even the Book of Revelation, all of that is the
gospel, such as in Revelation 14, the everlasting
gospel. But here's the point that I want to bring us
up to, and then we'll come back to this. "Then let
them which be in Judea flee into the mountains."
Remember in John Christ was talking with the
woman at the well?
CLINT: Where, where are you at now, David?
MR. KORESH: We're here in Verses 16 of
Matthew 24.
CLINT: Okay.
MR. KORESH: What I was saying was in just
remembrance, remember when Christ was talking to the
woman at the well?
CLINT: Sure I do.
MR. KORESH: He says the time is coming to
mu! 1
1 » 31
deny us, when they that worship the father will worship
neither in Jerusalem nor in the mountain of Samaria,
but in spirit and in truth. Remember, we have a
Jerusalem, don't we? We come up hither, right? Like
Galatians says, Jerusalem which is above, which is
free. Okay. Christ states - "Him which be on this
house top come not down to take anything of his house.
Neither let him which is in the field return back to
take clothes. And wonder them with child and those
that give suck in those days, but pray that your flight
be neither in the winter nor on the sabbath day." You
know, Christ still commands the sabbath.
It says here, "For then shall be great
tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the
world to this time known or ever shall be."
CLINT: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: "And except those days shall be
shortened. The"e should no flesh be saved. But for
the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened."
CLINT: we're talking about those that will
endure?
MR. KORESH= Well, yes. The question is now
who are the elect? Now, "If any man shall say unto
you, then if any many shall say to you lo, here's
Christ or there, believe it not." No one can say this
is Christ, that's Christ. I mean John the Baptist said
-. » V 32
behold the lamb of God, but who accepted it?
CLINT: Well, we also have him saying, you
know, I am he.
MR. KORESH: I have what?
CLINT: I am he. You know, the, the Lord»
took responsibility for who he is.
MR. KORESH: Exactly. And that was the point
that finally got him crucified.
CLINT: But he was willing to step forward.
MR. KORESH: Exactly. Especially after he
had to run from city to city and from town to town
because people were trying to kill him. And finally,
he came to the front, he says you both know who I am
and whence I've come from. So he'd done so many
miracles and said yet they believe not.
CLINT: Do you feel, David, that people -- I,
I understand what took place on the 28th of February.
Do you feel, notwithstanding that situation, that
people are trying to kill you?
MR. KORESH: Well, see, that's not the real
point that we're trying to aim for here. What we're
trying to aim for is the importance of the opening of
the seals. '
CLINT: No. And, and I'm with you there, but
I need to understand, David, the person so that I can
appreciate what you're saying concerning the seals.
~41{ 3
. /Ȣ V,1 33
MR. KORESH: Well, you can't understand the
person until you allow me to start showing you the
seals. Then you'll understand the person you're
dealing with. And the person right here in Matthew 24,
which is the only person to really be interest in at
this point right now, is that he forewarns us there
shall arise false Christ and false prophets and shall
show great signs and wonders, and so much that if it
were possible they shall deceive the very elect. But
how come it's not?
"Behold, I have told you before, wherefor
they shall say unto you he's in the desert, go not
forth. Behold, he's in the secret chambers," In other
words, he's hid, no one knows where he's at, "believe
it not."
CLINT: Have you had those, David, who have
been tempted to reveal the seals to you?
MR. KORESH: Oh, sure. I mean, you know, the
subject of the, the white horse is the Christian
dispensation, the red horse is the time of martyrdom,
the black horse is the dark ages, the pale horse is the
reformation, -- the alters the resurrection, -- stars
are going to end the world or the white horse being the
Papacy. Yeah, just about all the doctors and
theologians of the world have an interpretation of the
seven seals.
~~u .
be M
CLINT: Well, if we were to have, if we were
to have the various theologians, ones that you've
studied with, and yourself, how does one discern
between the truth and that provided by a teacher?
MR. KORESH: It's night and day. The truth
is the spirit of all the prophets and it perfectly
harmonizes all of their testimonies together. The
theory is just a man saying well, why does a symbol and
- and the crown is a symbol of, and the bull is a --
Uhhuh. No. You see, the seven seals are previews of
more in-depth realities spoken of by the prophets from
the foundation of the world. And the only last miracle
to be given to this world is that in a time when such
great scholarlyism and such great knowledge of the
scriptures supposedly increased, somebody comes along
and says well, why don't you show me the seven seals
according to what the prophets said?
And everyone kind of looks at him funny. And
that's what the testimony of Jesus Christ is, is the
spirit of prophecy. And if anybody knows the
prophecies, what they taught and what they said and how
they're going to be brought out, Christ would know.
CLINT: David, do you feel one needs to have
an overall view of Revelations before you can
understand the seven seals?
MR. KORESH: No. One has to acknowledge that
QM4
//5 .-I 35
God sits on the throne. That has to be the main
subject, and that Christ is their lord and savior. And
then when they realize very clearly that only the lamb
can reveal these things, then when I begin to open up
these things, they look at me kind of funny.
CLINT: Well, when you open these, are you
able to, and in your sharing will you give a -- will
you provide a overall historical view or an idealistic
view or a futurist type view of Revelations?
MR. KORESH: It will be, it will be word for
word from the prophets, what they were shown by Christ
pertaining to Christ, the word of God, and the right
hand of God the Father. It's all one truth. One
spirit, one mind, one doctrine, one faith, one Christ,
one Father, one God, and they are they which shall
receive redemption. "For the lightning cometh out of
the east, Verse 27, "and shine into the west, so shall
also the coming of the Son of man be.
Now, that's clear. when you come up hither,
there's lightning, thunderings, and voices. And as
plainly as God can say, God doesn't say anything. God
gives his book to Christ who is the mediator of the New
Testament, the New Testament revolving around the seven
seals.
CLINT: And, David, how long have you been
sharing the seven seals?
5-'11'
2 _ /* as
MR. KORESH: Ever since 1985 is when I got
back from Israel and that's when I began to open up and
thoroughly bring to men the reality of what these seals
are.
CLINT: Are, are you tired, David?
MR. KORESH: NO.
CLINT: No? Okay. I mean, you're, you're --
I hear your voice, sometimes it goes into what to me is
-- it's --
MR. KORESH: No, it's just a little chilly.
Don't, don't --
CLINT: It either sounds condescending or
it's like why is he making me answer these. And if
these are questions you don't want to answer --
MR. KORESH: No, no.
CLINT: - that's fine with me. Okay?
MR. KORESH: You're being too cautious,
Clint.
CLINT: No, I'm just -- I'm discerning your
voice, David. I want you to hear my voice.
MR. KORESH: Well, I hear your voice, but
you're probably sitting in a nice warm room there.
CLINT: No. As a matter of fact, it's cold
here, but that's because the air conditioning is on.
I'm in a hot building.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
s -I
Q <.¢~ 1'
CLINT: But what I want you to understand,
that -- I, I want you to hear my voice and know that
there's no deception in my voice.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
CLINT: And there's --
MR. KORESH: Well, Clint --
CLINT: -- no dishonesty in my voice.
MR. KORESH: Here's, here's one thing.
You'll notice that when Christ teaches in Matthew,
Mark, Luke, and John, you notice how in the scripture
nobody ever interrupts him until he stops talking?
'Cause this is one thing about Judaism that's unlike
the rest of the world. In Judaism, just like in the
Proverbs it states, you know, that we are to hear a
person and they're to make a statement. And after
they've got through speaking they'll stop, and then
we're supposed to comment on what they've said.
Now, you can't do that today, 'cause in
today's language everything is so debative. I'll begin
to present a statement and someone will interrupt me
every other words., This is the way most theologians
do. It's a debate, it's not a well, what does this
guy really teach?
CLINT: Well, it becomes whether - Then it
almost becomes a speech, though. You know, I mean, we
have to defer to the President because he's going to
v--Q!: ~
- /= _Q Q 3a
make a speech and he'll say I'll take questions --
MR. KORESH: Afterwards. I
CLINT: Okay. When this is all said and
done. And yet, there are many times when something is
said that if you can ask a question -- You know, like
when I, when I share, David, and when I teach, be it
either an adult Sunday school class or any other course
that I teach, right up front I'll tell the students if
you have anything as we're going on ask me then because
there are others here, I'm sure, with the same question
and with the same need. And if I can help you, if I
can interpret that or if I can give clarification, from
that point on people are going to do much better.
You know, a few years ago I was in Korea
teaching school and I was about a day-and-a-half into
it and this Korean National, member of the Korean
military, raises his hand and he says is this the bomb
disposal class? well, I'm not teaching anything close
to that. And I said no. And he said well, I just --
In broken Korean, he said, you know, it didn't sound
right but I didn't know when to ask the question. So
this poor fellow sat there a day-and-a-half, and it had
nothing whatsoever to do with bomb disposal, before he
ever asked the question.
So I guess that's why I revert back to - And
if, if your way of sharing is different than that, you
92-M>
know, I,_I can understand that and try to work with
that. It's simply not the way that Iim used to
learning and sharing --
MR. KORBSH: Exactly.
CLINT: -- in that particular context.
MR. KORESH: The same way it was when the
Sanhedrian 2,000 years ago that dealt with political
knowledge of sociological format. You know, it was the
tradition that required men to, to listen, you see.
But today that's not the tradition of our modern world.
And so, for instance, Christ is talking to his
disciples and he hasn't broken his conversation and he
tells them about the warning of not being deceived, but
then he explains that his covenant will be so clear, as
light in the east shines to the world, that's the way
his convent will be.
Just like in Revelation, the angel who
ascends from the east who brings the seal of the living
God, that's going to be so clear, what the seal of the
living God is. God's living. He sits on a throne. He
gives the book to his son. His son is going to come.
And it says he's going to seal the 144,000 with the
Father's name on their forehead. But then in Verse 28
Christ states "For wheresoever the carcass is, there
will the eagles be gathered together."
Now, whatever this may be, Christ knows what
v.-miik I
1! as 40
it is. He knows what the carcass is. He knows who the
eagles are. But the verse that we're going to bring
into point right now is Verse 29 of Matthew 24, because
that verse is clearly identified as the sixth seal of
Revelation, Chapter 6, Verse 12. It says "Immediately
after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be
darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the
stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the
heavens shall be shaken."
CLINT: Okay, that takes us back --
End of Tape #230.!
~44' 92.
y
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #231
4/15/93
8:17 P.M. - 9:04 P.M.
~.-4!
O G 2
Tape 231!
DAVID: »- could the fifth eeel be something
to do with a carcass? If there are souls under the
altar -- .
CLINT: Um-hum.
DAVID: -- in the fifth seal crying how long
and they're told to remain a season. Right? Then
could not the carcass of Matthew 28, 24:28 be something
to do with the fifth seal? And if so, then what about
the lightning is coming pertaining to the fourth,
third, second and first seals?
CLINT: Okay, but what happens, David, then
when we move from the fifth to the sixth seal? What's
the responsibility of the fellow servants?
DAVID: I'm sorry, of the what?
CLINT: when we move from the fifth to the
sixth seal, what's the responsibility, what has to take
place according to Scripture with the fellow servants?
DAVID; Fellow servants?
CLINT: Yes.
DAVID: Well, they're the ones who are
written in the book just like --
CLINT: Them, them, they're brethren. You
know, if one reads the Scriptures, we're told that it's
necessary that the fellow servants also and their
brethren that they should be killed as they were should
~._nbe, as they were should be fulfilled.I
I
I 3
DAVID: Right. So what does the prophet
Isaiah say about that or Habakkuk or Zephaniah or
Nahum? You see, remember what I am trying to establish
with you is the importance first of all to acknowledge
that what must be after John's day. Now John knew
Christ in a way different than what you know Christ.
Do you agree? He knew him both in the flesh and in the
spirit. Do you agree?
CLINT:
DAVID
CLINT
DAVID
CLINT
DAVIDOkay.
You see what I'm saying?
Yeah, I do.
Okay.
Yeah.
So in other words, if he knew Christ
both in the flesh and if he really did in the spirit
ascend to heaven in the spirit and saw these awesome
visions, he states that wheh Christ comes again it will
be like lightning from the east that shines to the
west. And he also states that there will have to be an
unfolding of the seven seals pertaining to what the
prophets say about them. And the prophets are already
in the book.
So Christ here is just again complying with
this rule of faith. Before the sun, moon and stars is
darkened, there are to be the gathering of the eagles
.,~,
to the carcass. Now that carcass does not have to be a|
*92
dead person. It can be a live person. I mean, you
know, what do the prophets teach? If Isaiah 40 is
correct -- let's turn to Isaiah 40.
CLINT: Okay, just a moment.
DAVID: Because you know, Isaiah was told to
seal his book amongst the disciples.
CLINT: Just, just a second. Mine is not
tabbed, so I have to work through. Work through my
dog-eared pages
DAVID
so laughing! -
CLINT
DAVID
CLINT
DAVID
Clint?
CLINT
DAVID
CLINT
DAVID
CLINT
chapter 1.
DAVID: You'll probably get there before me
- Isaiah 40.
: Isaiah 40, 41
: Are you there
: I'm at 33 --
: Can you speak
: David, I'm at
: Okay. That's
: Okay.
: NOW --
: I'm at
: Okay.
comfort to the people. Right?yet?
up a little bit louder,
37 and rising --
where I'm at.
-- okay. I'm at Isaiah 40,
Now notice the message of
CLINT: Comfort ye, comfort ye my people,4
92 .-Q1= 1
O O 5
saith your Lord. '
DAVID: Right. Okay, see there in verses 10,
behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand.
Right?
CLINT: Um-hum.
DAVID: His arm shall rule for him: behold,
his reward is with him, and his work before him. Okay,
so, so in similarity we see that Christ promises in the
last chapter of Revelation I come, my reward is with
me. n
Now what is stronger than the word of God
that made heaven and earth? If Christ comes to bring a
revelation of the will of God, a revelation of his last
work, okay? His work before him. If Christ comes to
seal the 144,000 with the seal of the living God, will
it not have to be according to those seven seals?
Verse 11. He shall feed his flock like a
shepherd. What's he going-to feed them with? The
truth. He shall gather the lambs with his arm, and
carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those
that are with young.
Well, the prophet begins to see in vision a
magnitude of what this means when he says who has
measured the water in the hollow of his hand. I mean
how deep is this truth going to be? Meted out heaven
with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth
~. -nl3
O I 6
in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and
the hills in a balance?
CLINT:
DAVID:
CLINT:
DAVID:
CLINT:
talking the fifth
DAVID:And are we talking --
Who --
-- the fifth angel here then?
Hello?
Are, are we into the fifth angel? We
angel at the same time?
Well, remember now, what we're
talking about here in Isaiah is the foundation that's
based upon how will the coming of Christ be. You know,
how will this coming be? What are some of the things
that we're supposed to be looking forward to?
In Matthew 24, we talked about the carcass.
we know when Christ came 2,000 years ago he was a
carcass, wasn't he? Wasn't the day spring put into the
clay for the seal just like Job had talked about?
Wasn't the word of God made flesh? He was a human
being just like anybody else, you know. But we find in
this prophecy here that in verses 30 of Matthew -- of,
of Isaiah 40 --
CLINT:
verse --
DAVID:Wait. Wait, wait. Isaiah 40,
Verse 30. It says even the youths
shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall
utterly fall: But they that wait upon the Lord shall
--IJ !
O D I 7
renew their strength; they will mount up with wings as
eagles; they shall run, and not weary, be weary; and
they shall walk, and not faint. I mean who are these
eagles as Matthew 24?
CLINT: And does this take place after the
sixth seal is opened?
DAVID: Absolutely not.
CLINT: When does it take place?
DAVID: What I'm saying is I'm saying when
Christ promises to come with his reward, Isaiah says he
will come to open up the seven seals. And those who
have been waiting will renew their strength. They will
see something from God that they've never seen before.
CLINT: Well, David, if, if I were to ask one
of your flock in there -- are you comfortable with that
term? Or what term would you like me to use?
DAVID: Well, the flock or -- '
CLINT: Okay.
DAVID: -- you know, that's, that's a
pastoral term anyway.
CLINT: All right. If, if I were to ask one
of your flock based upon the teachings that David has
provided you, where do you feel we are in time? If one
has a time line, and you know, to me we're dealing with
two different time lines. We're dealing with man's
time line and understanding of it. We're dealing with
q.-~i 92
O O 8
God's time line. Many times it, you know, two totally
different. But if I were to ask one of your flock
where do you feel we are on the time line of the seals,
now with having had the opportunity to share this for
years with your flock, would they be able to tell me
where we're at?
DAVID: Sure, they know where they're at.
But they'll also tell you point blank, they'll say hey,
this is so awesome. You let David talk to you.
CLINT: Well --
DAVID: David's right here they'll say.
CLINT: Now see, that's, that's the -- I
don't, I don't want to use the term problem, David.
But I guess I would hope that your flock through the
teachings that they're giving them that, that the seals
having been opened to their mind would based upon that
knowledge be able to say what they know to be truth.
DAVID
CLINT
DAVID
SEQ -'
CLINT
DAVID:T.
Well, what they would tell --
ABopposed to --
well, that's true, Clint, but
as opposed to deferring that.
you see, let me explain something,
Clint. The, the truth of God cannot come according to
man's opinion. You cannot limit God or Christ and put
him into a little flame box that the Catholic Church
s_-1L - i»
teaches.
CLINT: No, no. We're @-
DAVID: Or the Lutherans or Presbyterians.
CLINT: -- we're not -- okay. We're not
talking Catholicism and, and I'm not a member of any
denomination or religion.
DAVID: Exactly. And even then in itself --
CLINT: Okay. So that's, that's not my
challenge.
DAVID: In, in itself one man who is of
the -- okay, for instance, like in Chapter 41, here's
what God says about the subject. He says keep silence
before me, oh islands. Islands are independent. Let
the people renew their strength, let them come near,
let them speak, let us come near together to judgment.
Here's the question. Who raised up the
righteous man from the east, called him to his foot,
gave the nations before him, made him rule over kings.
Now the angel from the east in Revelation is
going to seal the 144,000. And we know the Lamb is
going to stand on Mt. Zion with the 144,000. These ar
obvious. These are things that are obvious.
Most people that I deal with in the
theological world already have somewhat, they feel, an
understanding --
CLINT: Yeah.9
8
-..-A' '92
-92
O O 1°
I DAVID: -- of Scripture like in Isaiah 28.
But God says for foundation he will place a stone. And
God is the rock. If we are to say that we know the
prophecies in perfect harmony and how they will be
fulfilled in the latter days, we have to begin with
seal number one and thoroughly show and exhaust the
testament of the prophets on that seal.
CLINT: Do you feel, David, do you believe,
would you like to see your flock have the ability to go
out to all nations and share what they've learned from
you? I
DAVID: Well, they're going to. But see this
is where again people trying to limit in their minds
what the subject is, not being aware of what it is, can
only judge us by their narrow perception of what they
think the gospel is supposed to do.
CLINT: Now you told me earlier, David, and I
haven't -- I didn't write it down. But how long that
you've been studying or when you first felt the
seals --
DAVID: I didn't study this.
CLINT: No, when were the seals first
revealed to you?
DAVID: In 1985 the seals, everything
pertaining to the seals which is the Bible was opened
up and thoroughly locked in for its presentation.
mi, _
Q Q 11
That's what makes me different from the rabbis in
Israel who say oh, David, you need to learn Hebrew, you
know?
CLINT: Well, you know, what, you know, let
me, let me ask a question, David, okay? And to allow
me to continue to move on and continue to hear the
insight that you're sharing with me. If in 1985 the
seals were revealed to you, and yet you tell the other
people here that from 1985 to 1993 this is the first
time, this is the first time you feel, you have felt
led this week and next week to commit your knowledge,
your understanding to paper. .
You know, one, my question, if you've had
this, if the knowledge has not increased but the
knowledge has been steady because it's been all
knowledge, why have we waited until this point to
commit to paper --
DAVID: It's not been just knowledge. I've
been doing exactly what I have supposed to have been
doing since day one. You understand that when I first
began to teach I met a lot of opposition. Why?
Because this is --
CLINT: Where, where did you meet the
opposition, David? Within, within the branch?
DAVID: No, no, no, no. No, no.
CLINT: Okay. Where, where was that
wad. _ !
Q Q 12
opposition -~
DAVID: No. The first opposition came when
we began to teach the subjects, and people see what I
teach.
CLINT: Well, why would people be opposed to
the teachings of Revelations? l
DAVID: Well, let me ask you a question? How
come it takes such a long time before you and I can get
into the first seal? Because everything I say you want
it to be reiterated as an opinion. Well, what do you
feel about this, David? What do you think about this,
David? What's your ideal on this, David? And actually
what I'm trying to say is that my opinion and my
feeling and my ideal is worthless on the contrary.
CLINT: Okay, but David --
DAVID: Revelation states --
CLINT: -- you know, you have to, you have to
know a person before you take in what they say. You
know, one thing may be to see an individual -
DAVID: But you can't judge a man
scripturally unless you hear his doctrine.
CLINT: No. _
DAVID: And you can't hear it unless you
hear. This is the, what I've been trying to say. In
other words, if you was to look at Moses, he was a
murderer. You look at Christ going into the temple,
5- !
0 0 13
Christ is overthrowing money changers. People thought
he was the, the biggest dog that walked the face of the
earth. The ones who crucified him didn't think he had
anything to do with God. On the contrary.
So we always now accept things that are in
the past. I mean it's very clearly revealed, Matthew,
Mark, Luke and John. Christ was right and they were
wrong.
But what about the generation we're to be
judged? What if Christ was to come today? What do we
expect him to wear sandals? Would he have a robe?
would he have long hair, a beard? It might be
different. And we won't know unless we know the seven
seals what God has foreordained is to be. For
instance --
CLINT: Yeah, but also, you know, I have to
be cautious. And I've always cautioned my children and
my family you have to be very careful what you take in
your mind that's offered by a man. And you have to
understand, you have to have a feeling, you have to
have discernment as to who this person is before you
allow them to penetrate the folds of your mind and to
plant seed there that shouldn't be there in the first
place.
DAVID: Well, remember that if there's any
seed to be planted, Christ is the seed sower. And
,4-0U
- I
1!. 1" 14
remember that looking at the first seal in Revelation,
after I expand on that, you've still got the book
yourself.
I have never taken any student that have not
first come and heard and that I'm, I sent them out.
And they have to go, and they have to talk to teachers,
rabbis, priests, scholars. You see, they have to see
clearly that the key that opens up the mystery that
once it's opened no man can shut it. Otherwise, they
just don't have a mind of their own.
CLINT: Well, David, why, why at this point,
okay, and bear with me. Because I, I keep discerning
in your voice it's, if you would only let me go through
this. But, but there are questions, you know, I --
DAVID: No laughing!.
CLINT: -- I go back. I look at someone.
You know who Margaret Mead is? You ever heard --
Margaret Mead for years and years was a very famous
anthropologist.
DAVID: Uh-huh.
CLINT: And she in South America one time or
in the South Pacific I should say was on a small island
called Tiwi. And she encountered this native group
there. And it was such a unique setting that you
would, you would bring the village or, you know,
similar to a flock of people, you would bring them
-.-ydI
92.3
i 15
together, and they would all sit in a circle. And then
each person in the group would have the opportunity to
stand up and to present their point of view on a topic.
And then this person would say what they had to say and
then would sit down.
And you
interruptions and
unique about this
I got a question,
would let the oneknow, you talked about the
things. And I thought that was so
people group that instead of me, me,
I got a question, the entire group
person talk and would sit there and
simply contemplate what had been said. And then the
next person would have a chance to talk. And they
would work their way around the group where each
individual in a very docile setting would have the
opportunity to do something like that. And it's just,
it's something that our society really doesn't, really
doesn't afford today because it's so busy.
DAVID: You're right. I mean it's a
tradition that we've lost. I agree with you. And
that's why a lot of times in my, in my presentations I
do. I'm asked to come places and to expound, and
before you know it, I just sit there and listen to
them. And after about 30 minutes, 45 minutes, they
finally realize I'm not saying nothing.
CLINT: You know, with, in -- and I guess the
point I'm getting to then with there's a lot of
s.-4' >
O O 16
background on this seals. I mean one just can't say
okay let's, let's go through Revelations and you got
the seals and you're out of here. You know, it's come
quick, we'll do our 45-minute study on Revelations and
YOU ' I8 QOIIZO .
DAVID:
CLINT:
DAVID:
CLINT
DAVID
teacher it --
CLINT
DAVID
CLINTIt can be.
You can carry it from here.
It can be.
It can --
If it's in the hands of the right
Well --
-- can be very clear.
-- then I guess when with, with
choosing this point in time to commit your knowledge,
your insight into Revelations to paper and why you
haven't seized that opportunity before --
DAVID: Well, that's because of a direction
like I was telling negotiators. I have a commander.
Remember.
CLINT: Well, we all do. I mean you don't --
I mean you're, you're not saying something that, you
know. I have, I have a commander that's far greater
than anybody I work for here.
DAVID: Well, well, I'm saying that my father
is different so far from the majority of everyone
,4. r
Q O 1'»
else's father in heaven. I mean I know what I receive
from my father. And I know from all the prophets
exactly what they have received. And I know because I
can show clearly. And no one's ever gainsaid my
doctrine. Not once.
They said that I'm a child molester. They've
said that I sacrifice babies. They said that we
sacrifice animals. They say that we commit suicide.
They said everything they can say. We deal with
illegal automatic weapons. We've got bombs. We do
this. We do that. All of my opponents have always
used these means to try to stop me or knock me out or
get me into the false light of the system. »
CLINT: well, life, life is a trip through
definition, David. Life is a trip through definition
where one man's child molest -- I mean what age was
Mary when she was impregnated? What age was she?
DAVID: What does Scripture say?-
CLINT: That's, that's why I ask you.
DAVID: Well, see, there again --
CLINT: You know.
DAVID: -- if I was --
CLINT= I mean if, if you look at the age
that Mary was and then one could say well, she was
what, 13. She was 13 at the time or somewhere between
12 and 14. And I'd have to look it up again. But if
92--an. !
0 0 18
you say well, that's the case. Or maybe she was older
than that. You know, I, I'm going to have to look back
again. But --
DAVID:, Well, I can --
CLINT: -- if in fact that was the age that
women were considered ripe at the time because what,
how old did one live in Biblical times, 35, 33 --
DAVID: Well, no. They, they lived over to
be 80's and 90's and 100's.
CLINT: Well --
DAVID: You've got a lot of scholars that
give their opinions. And a lot of people take it as
gospel truth. And it really isn't. You know, there's
a lot of things that a lot of theologians -- okay,
look, there's more books about the Bible than there are
people with knowledge of the Bible.
CLINT: Sure.
DAVID: So it's just like when you get into
the mysticism of Judaism they say that, that, you know,
Isaac's wife was 3 years old. Now that's baloney. You
ask them to prove it. They can't. It came from a
rabbi. This great rabbi.
Well, what we're trying to say is that I'm
going to deal with every person that comes to me based
upon straight across, eye to eye, ear to ear, word for
word. If the first seal pertains to what John saw, a
---1¬
A 19
man on a white horse, if he has a crown and a bow and
he goes forth conquering of the conquer, when a person
says well, I think that that means this or that I'm
going to listen to them. And I'm going to say to them
well, would you like to hear what I believe. If they
want to listen, then I'll say well, what I believe is
that only the Lamb can reveal this.
CLINT: All right. Then, then would you say,
David, would you say I believe, or would you say this
is what it means?
DAVID: I would say I believe. Because when
I've shown them from the prophets what they say,
they're going to say to me how did you, how did you
figure this out? How did you learn that? And I'm
going to say I learned it from high school. They're
going to say they taught you this in high school? Then
I go well, real high school. Higher than what you
could ever perceive right now.
But the keynote is that when the mystery of
God is to be finished, it is to be finished as God has
declared. God declared it. It was told to the
prophets beforehand. And the mystery is, is that God
has sealed it. Man will not have any power in his own
mind or in his own wisdom to be able to unlock it or
reveal it until the time. And this is why the last
miracle is to be done.
mi* '1
>l ", 20
The alleged cannot be deceived. Because when
miracles were done 2,000 years ago, they would not
believe. So today, when the truth is going to be
totally contrary, then Thessalonians says that God will
send the wicked strong delusions that they shall
believe a lion be damned because they loved not the
truth. Now we want to know the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth. And please help us, God.
The revelation of Christ that pertains to the
first seal, what is it? The revelation of Christ that
pertains to the second seal, what is it? You know, we
write a lot of songs here. We have a lot of music.
There's one song called Seven Thunders. And it says,
you know, see the angel who stands on earth and sea.
Mighty angel, and he's calling to you and me. Seven
thunders. Hear the sounds. The sound of life. And it
goes I want to know, I want to know, seven thunders.
You know, it's the sound of life.
And so where that foundation is Psalms 11
says if that foundation be destroyed, if that sea of
glass, if we can't walk on the waters in safe like
Peter walked on the waters on earth, if we can't come
up hither and stand before God in our minds and in our
hearts and look at the Lamb the way God says the Lamb
is. If we can't see in honesty that the first seal, a
revelation of Christ about the man on the white horse
~40' 1
N I. 21
is something we need to know, then we've lost the
foundation of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Romans,
Acts, Corinthians, Ephesians, we have failed somewhere.
And we'll not come to full Christian maturity.
CLINT: Let, let me ask you a question,
David. Do you, do you believe in the Scriptures where
we're told that, and, and I'll, I'll find it if we need
to, but where the apostles had to establish their
authority and validity and, and the means by which they
established that?
DAVID: Surely. They establish it by the
power. Paul says in Romans, you know, like Paul says
also in Galatians, I came not to you the words of
wisdom after man. I came to you in power.
CLINT: Or did they establish it by having
seen Christ also?
DAVID: Well, the thing of it is, Paul had
not really actually seen Christ and believed in him in
the flesh. But he believed of him in the spirit. And
funny how it is how out of all the apostles the most
prolific and zealous writer of them all is Paul the
apostle given he's a gentile.
CLINT: Well, how, how did Paul see Christ?
So he saw him in a vision.
DAVID: Well, definitely. And Peter says
when he talks to the church in II Peter, he says we
mi2
Q O 22
have not followed -- he's talking to the church. He
says we have not followed cunningly devised fables,
when we, the apostles, made known unto you the power of
his coming, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
We were on the Mount, the Mount of
Transfiguration. We heard a voice in most excellent
glory saying this is my beloved son who am well
pleased. But then Peter says we have also a more sure
word of prophecy.
CLINT: Hey, have you, have you discussed
with your flock, David, how you establish your
authority? And has the authority been established in a
way similar to that of the apostles?
DAVID: Well, remember, my authority is
different than the apostles.
CLINT: How would you define your authority,
David?
DAVID: Well, again, the apostles receive
their power from Christ through the sacrifice and the
giving of the gifts from Christ. Right? True?
CLINT: Go ahead. Yes, it is.
DAVID: And through that power, the eternal
spirit of prophecy, they relayed it to the church on
earth with works and in testimony of the future events
pertaining to Christ. So when John the Revelator says
what must be hereafter is that God must sit on the
xaf!
0 0 23
throne, and God must give the book to the Lamb. And
the Lamb says he will come with this reward that he
received, then the question remains what church on
earth clearly can reveal the seven seals? That church
will be the church spoken of by the prophets.
CLINT
church that can
DAVID
CLINT
DAVIDWell, I, I don't know that there is a
reveal that, David.
Well --
Christ indiscernible! --
-- there's a people here that know
beyond shadows of doubt.
CLINT
. DAVID
to tell you.
CLINTWell, is there a -- well if --
You see, that's what they're trying
No, David, are you saying that your
flock believes or your, your flock believes they have
the identity of
DAVID
CLINT
DAVID
CLINT
DAVID
They're telling
CLINT
talking to them.
you know, it's the old I want to come to the source andthat person. Is that what --
Exactly.', '
-- is that what you're saying?
That's what they're telling you.
No, no --
That's what they're telling you.
you that they have been --
-- I'm talking to you. No, I'm not
I'm talking to you. That's, that's,
-..-4'-92._.
F
' 24
to the authority. And that's, that's why I wanted to
speak to you.
DAVID: But my authority in the flesh is not
respected and nor should it be. I'm a man like you.
If you was to see me in Wal-Mart, you wouldn't say hey,
look at that guy over there. Hey, I bet you that guy
can teach me the seven -- I bet you he's the Lamb. You
wouldn't say that. And that would be foolish.
CLINT: But I think if --
DAVID: If one of --
CLINT: -- I, I think if, if you knew me, if
you knew me, you'd know me by my works.
DAVID: Well, the thing of it is today you
can't interpret men by their works. Men today don't
have time to talk to one another. Men today always
judge according to the appearance of things just like
Christ warned not to do. Judge righteous judgment.
And if men don't know the righteous judgment
of God, then they fail to understand what Paul states
in Romans. Paul says who art thou that judgest
another? You do the same things. He says do you think
you'll escape the righteous judgment of God? The
righteous revelation of Jesus
Now in the judgment
is asked. And that is who is
And the hope of the ChristianChrist?
of God only one question
ready to open this book?
church is not in judging
~._4I$
O 25
one another by their works. Of course, there are
certain works that are forbidden by God. But
nonetheless, the hope of the church is that there will
come a grace to them at the end of time which will be
the revelation of Jesus Christ. '
And so those who know to fight for the unity
and the brotherhood not judging one another but looking
to Christ and the promises which are given, they're the
ones to whom it belongs. That when Christ does come in
the last days, they will receive the knowledge of the
seven seals.
CLINT:
DAVID:
CLINT
DAVID
CLINTDo you feel we're in the last days?
I know we are in the last days.
On a --
It's not a feeling. I don't --
Okay, David. On a, on a continuum,
can you function on a continuum and say where we're at
on that continuum as the last days?
DAVID: Well, you see you, you don't -- okay,
let me ask you this question. What is the first seal
to you? What is your knowledge of the first seal?
CLINT: Well, I've got to go back again. And
I always go back to the Scriptures again. And I've
began from that and --
DAVID: Okay.
CLINT: -- and as you say --
v. -mi92
9
9 0 26
DAVID: If you'll show me that, then I'll
show you what I see. You see? And then, and then
you'll see where we're at in regards to the seals. But
like I said in the tape to you that I was hoping that,
that you would receive, none of you all are in the
seals. The seals
CLINT:
written in there.
DAVID:
CLINT:
there.
DAVID:
CLINT:
DAVID:
CLINT:
book.
DAVID:
CLINT:
DAVID:are the Lamb's book of life.
Well, I mean I believe my name is
Well, you don't know because --
I believe my name is written in
-- you don't know --
I -- no, I, I do know. I, I --
Wait a minute.
- I know my name is written in the
Clint, you don't know --
I absolutely know that. Yeah.
-- Clint, Clint, the first seal is a
man on a white horse. Now where is your name there?
The second seal is a man on a red horse. Where's your
name there? There's two sets of books.
CLINT: No, I don't know that the man on the
horse has anything to do with my name written in the
Lamb's book of life. I don't --
DAVID: Yeah, but you see --
92 -$4
92
i
92CLINT
DAVID-
the seven seals
CLINT
DAVID
chapter 6.
CLINT
DAVID
CLINT
and 5.
DAVID
CLINT
DAVID}
0 27
-- really think so, David.
-- the Lamb's book of life contains
Where, where does it say that so I --
Well, right there in Revelation,
Well --
Revelation 4 and 5.
Let me get to that. Revelations 4
Okay.
Okay.
Now you see what I want so you can
better understand where I'm coming from is I want to
first I want you to show me what you have learned and
what you have received about the first seal. And that
way I can show you what I have resealed sic!. And
then we'll compare the two.f
CLINT: Well, what I'm saying is if I believe
my name is written in the, in the book and you say it's
HOB --
DAVID= What I'm saying is --
CLINT: -- and because of Scriptures I want
to see in 4 and 5 where, where I'm missing that.
DAVID: Okay. Laughing.! John -- I mean
not John, Clint, you see the book that contains the
mud. 2a
names of all those --
CLINT: You've been talking, you've been
talking to too many Johns, David. That's your --
DAVID: I mean we -- there's so many Johns
everywhere we just laughing! --
CLINT: You know, after this I'm going to
rename my son. Because there's just -- his name is
John. There's been too many Johns.
DAVID: Well, you know, John is a nice name.
Okay. Now what we see is a revelation of Jesus Christ
in Chapter 5, verse 1. It's in the right hand of God.
Okay?
CLINT: Um-hum.
DAVID: And we see that it's sealed. In
other words, it's a mystery. No one in heaven knows
what's in it. No one's been capable to even look
thereon. You see?
So when I used to go to certain ministerial
classes and stuff, you know, I would ask a question.
Because a lot of ministers preach this is where our
name is written in the Lamb's book of life, and I go
wait a minute. The book says here it's sealed. How do
you know? Well, we know. Well, no, wait a minute.
This book contains just what the Scripture
says it contains in chapter 6, verse 1. Christ opens
the first seal just like on a letter. You open the
.4hr
I I 29
seal. You open it up. And the subject pertains to
behold a white horse. Verses 2. iAnd he that sat on
him had a bow. A crown was given to him, and he went
forth conquering and to conquer. Well, that's a
revelation of Christ. Something that we're supposed to
know in the latter days.
And so you ask a Christian well, is your name
there? I mean, you know, how is it? Well, so then
they begin to say well, this is the Christian -- okay,
it sounds good.
CLINT: Well, I'm reading that, David. But I
mean it's not to take away obviously from what you're
saying. But to me, it's an interpretation. But I
don't share that interpretation. Because I believe my
name is written in that book. And I don't see where it
says it's not. And this is not, you know, again I'm
not, I don't want to duel with you. But I'm not
willing to give that up.
DAVID: Okay, well, let me, let me make it
this way. Let me state it this way then. Okay? We
see over here in chapters 21 -- okay.
CLINT: In -- you in Revelation?
DAVID: Yeah, chapter 21. We see point blank
this is where God makes his only statement in
Revelation. This is God the father, 21 verse 1. And I
saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven
/
~....4= s
0 0 30
and first earth were passed away and there was no moresea. I
CLINT: Yes. I
DAVID: I, John, saw the holy city, new
Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared
as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven
saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and
he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their
eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow,
nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for
the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold,
I make all things new. And he said unto me, write, for
these words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha
and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto
him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of
life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, the
abominable, murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers,
and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in
Q--~14§
31
the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which
is the second death. t
Now we see here in chapters 20 the event.
John said I saw an angel come down from heaven. This
is verse 1. Having the key of the bottomless pit and a
great chain in his hand.
He laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand
years.
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and
shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should
deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years
were fulfilled and after that he must be loosed a
little season.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and
for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, nor in their hands; and they
lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again
until the thousand years were finished. This is the
first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the
first resurrection, on such the second death hath no
92-Q1A 2
0 0 32
power, but they shall be priests unto God and of
Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired,
Satan shall be loosed out of the prison.
And shall go out and deceive the nations
which are upon the four corners of the earth, Gog and
Magog, to gather them together to battle, the number of
whom is the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the
beloved city and fire came down from God out of heaven,
and devoured them.
And the devil that deceived them was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast
and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day
and night for ever and ever.
And I saw --
CLINT: We, we néed to jump forward to 12
then, right?
DAVID: Well, we're, we're getting up there.
CLINT: Okay.
DAVID: And I saw a great white throne, and
him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and
heaven fled away and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand
before God and the books were opened and another book
1
I
was opened, which is the book of life and the dead were!
33
judged out of those things which were written in the
books.
CLINT: According to their works.
DAVID: According to their works. Okay.
CLINT: Okay, now there --
DAVID: Now the --
CLINT: -- there we have men being judged not
only having a -- I mean that, that gives, that gives a
very clear responsibility for works, because you're
going to be judged according to your works.
DAVID: Exactly. And it's got to be
according to the books and the book. You see, the
books, Daniel will tell you, and the other prophets
will tell you, contain
ever named the name of
CLINT: Jee,
that book without that
be burned right on thethe names of all those who have
Christ.
my, my name can be written on
book being opened. My name can
pages of that book without the
book ever having been opened.
DAVID: Well, it says here, verse 15, and who
so was not found written in the book of life was cast
into the lake of fire.
CLINT: Absolutely. And if my belief is for
those who believe that and have the works for which
they will be judged that our names will be written on
L --1Q 34
that book.
DAVID: Okay. So what happens is, is when
the Lamb who is to be the mediator in the judgment
receives the book of God, right --
CLINT: Yeah. But, but my name is already
written on that book.
DAVID: Okay.
CLINT: Okay. That's, that's -- okay. when
you say I believe, I don't believe, I know, David. I
know that. You know, that's not a belief. That's not
a thought. That's not a hope. That's not a prayer. I
know it.
DAVID: Okay. So when the Lamb comes to
reveal the seven seals, then you are going to want to
know the seven seals, right? I mean I'm here to offer
you an understanding ~-
CLINT: Okay. But, but David, were not the
seven seals opened prior to the judgment?
DAVID: In heaven before anybody on earth
ever has a chance to know them, Christ alone received
them. Because he is the judge. The father judges no
man but is given all judgment unto the son that man
should honor the son as they honor the father.
Now when the last days become a part of the
experience of those who dwell on the earth, the Lamb is
to come and judge the gentiles just as the Jews were to
~<¢uI! I
as
be judged. The only difference is 2,000 years ago the
people, the majority, did not have available to them
the Scriptures. But in the time of the end when much
knowledge is to be increased as Daniel chapter 11 and
12 tells us, we are to be directed to that knowledge.
CLINT: Where --
DAVID: The Bible --
CLINT: -- where does it tell us, David, in
the Bible that one will come to write and to pass to
men an understanding of the seals? Where does it -- I
mean you and I both know, and you and I have both read
where it says in Revelations that you can't take away
and you can't add to.
DAVID: Exactly.
CLINT: So how does that then give
justification to one coming and producing a manuscript
with a greater interpretation or overview of the seals?
DAVID: Well, remember, what John has written
is a witness to. It's not an interpretation of. John
bears witness to what he was shown by the spirit. And
the witness is the final testament that I come. My
reward is with me. .
~ Now the reward that Christ receives from his
father is the book with seven seals. Who therefore
only can properly reveal what the seven seals are?
Well, you know the 144,000 will be sealed with this
~.-4¥
Q Q 36
seal. They will
seals. And they
east.receive the knowledge of the seven
do so by the angel who sends from the
Matthew 24, Christ clearly taught that his
coming will be so clear, it's so clear when he comes,
he comes according to Psalms 40. In the volume of the
book it's written of me. Let's turn to Psalms 40 with
the key of David, and let's see exactly how it states
in Scripture --
CLINT:
from the sealing
DAVID:Well, how, how do you differentiate
of God's people to opening of seals?
Well, when a seal is opened, the
truth of God's word is revealed. And those who receive
that truth receive a knowledge of the work that God is
accomplishing.
CLINT: But, but don't, you know, I mean I
have the truth of his word right here in these old --
DAVID:
CLINT:
looking at right
DAVID:
Scriptures daily
And they testify
Even if you wereWell, you have --
-- in these dog-eared pages that I'm
here without, without adding to it.
So did the Pharisees. You search the
thinking that in them you have life.
of somebody else who is your life.
to receive the whole knowledge of the
law, you of yourself cannot fulfill the law. But
Christ can fulfill the law for you.
~..-an1
Q, ' 37I V And that way you can be saved by grace. And
you don't have to stand in the judgment next to the
law. You stand in the judgment by the righteousness of
Christ.
And so there's one last righteousness of
Christ to be revealed. And that is he only can reveal
the seven seals. And it will gather all the true
Christians and all the true saints together into one
body the way the apostles teach it's supposed to be.
There's not supposed to be this church and that church
and this diversity and that diversity. There's not
supposed to be all this arguing here and there.
So I'm not going to come in a position of
saying well, I think Matthew says, think Mark says this
and Luke. No. You see the subject of the seals is one
within itself. God, the book. Clearly everybody can
see the seals. And so everybody has a right to show me
what they think about the seals.
CLINT: Well, you know, they, they have a
right, David, but they don't have a responsibility.
DAVID: No, but I do. That's why I live.
That's why I'm here. That's why my actions seem to be
so adverse to what a lot of people think my actions
should be. I mean, you know --
CLINT: Yeah, are we going back to authority
again? You know, what, who has the authority?
~-4 = >
Q r 0 :8
DAVID: We're going back to the chain of
command. Who has -- l
CLINT: Who has the authority.
DAVID: -- the divine credentials to make
such testaments. Especially when I warn every man, I
testify to every man that hears the words of this
prophecy you cannot add your opinions, and you cannot
take away the testament that's there.
CLINT: Let me -- David, let me ask you this.
Would you say your flock -- what is -- what opinion if
one would say what is the opinion of your flock of the
authorities that are outside of your complex? What do
they represent? Do -- is there, is there an opinion or
is there a teaching provided that this represents
Babylon? _
DAVID: Well, Babylon is anything that's
contrary to God's word.
CLINT: Well, okay. Why --
DAVID: Would you not agree?
CLINT: Why would you think that the
authorities, why would you, you know, why would you
find the, you know, as, as a Christian and as an FBI
agent, I don't find myself and my responsibility
contrary to God's word.
DAVID: Well, if you were an apostle, then
you would not be working for the FBI. You'd be out
~..@. 92 §
T
ministering like Paul the apostle.
CLINT: Well, I, I can do both though. I can
minister --
DAVID: Well, not really.
CLINT: -- within the context of my
responsibility and still carry out my what I'm supposed
to do as an FBI agent.
DAVID: Well, now, Clint --
CLINT: No, you got to understand, David,
that I've spent years, you know, as an FBI agent always
saying if I'm supposed to do something else, if I'm
supposed to give this up and go on a mission field, I
want to do it, you know, I would sell a house.
give up a car. I would, you know, those thingsI'd
mean
nothing and very quickly move out into that field if
was told to do that. But I'm in a field. I'm in a
mission field right now.
DAVID: Right. Well, I agree with you as
a -_
CLINT: But, but that doesn't require
to -- and, and if it did I would. But I've not
I've not been told give up. Go away. Turn all
things, and go out and do something else. I've
told stay where you are, and minister where you
And, and you've got --me
been,
these
been
are.
DAVID: Well, then that's what you have to39
I
¢..-1pa», 40
do.
CLINT: And you've got so many people out
here outside of your complex. You know what, what
bothers me, David, is I think sometimes there's,
there's a we against us type of mentality here where
the branch, where your flock is the we, and everybody
outside of your flock may be them. And that's not
correct. That's the diversity that you talk about that
shouldn't take place. And I don't think it is taking
place -- '
DAVID: Now I --
CLINT: -- but I think actions have caused
certain measures to be done.
DAVID: Exactly. Like on the 28th day I was
outside the door, and I got shot at. My action was I
jumped back inside the door.
CLINT: All right, now --
DAVID: Another elderly gentleman --
CLINT: -- if --
DAVID: -- next to me was shot dead.
CLINT: If, if I was in -- okay --
DAVID: Now that was a mistake. We
forgave --
CLINT: If I was in your position, David, if
I was in your position, I would as a Christian, as a
believer, I would want to bring the situation, number
»-IxxI Q 41
one, to the world's attention so they could hear
through me what took place and nunber two --
DAVID: They're going to.
CLINT: -- take it into man's court and
resolve it into man's court then.
DAVID: Clint, you're being very clever. But
nonetheless --
CLINT: What's -- no, David. See now that --
okay. That bothers me --
DAVID: Well --
CLINT: -- when you hear honesty and you
attribute it to cleverness.
DAVID: You're calling it honesty. But
you're moving right back --
Bnd of tape 231.!
1.-~41<5 -
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO 8 FIREARMS
TAPE #232
4/15/93
9:04 P.M. - 9:51 P.M.
<11 . !
3 0 2
Tape 23
CLINT: Well, so am I, David. You know, I,
I --
DAVID: So are we going back to the
negotiation part --
CLINT: No, I --
DAVID: -- or we going back to the fear of
God? '
CLINT: - let's say - I'm saying -- I'm,
I'm sitting in my house on a Sunday afternoon knowing
this situation has gone on, and to get a call to come
here with no reason for that to take place, unless some
divine intervention in saying here to come here that
you can do some good based upon your beliefs and your
background, and to have you attribute that to a rank
and file negotiator, I would start to show that same
discernment in my voice that you've shown to me so far.
DAVID: Well, I haven't shown you discernment
in the voice in respect that it's kind of chilly in
here. And everything that I do according what the
sounds you hear - you're not hearing what I'm saying.
First of all, we're Christians. Yes or no? Then let's
have respect to God. Let's come up hither. Now up
hither there's no FBI agents except you, okay? And me,
I'm a mechanic. I'm a carpenter. All right?
CLINT: So, well, you know, let's, let's not
5-ad. .1
":~
-
O 3
get caught up in titles, okay? Let's --
DAVID: No, no, no. Well, that's, that's
what I, I like -- I'm a carpenter.
CLINT: -- let's not say, let's not say what
one does for a living.
DAVID: I build houses. I like to build
houses. I'm a mechanic. I'm a guitar player.
According to the flesh.
CLINT: Well --
DAVID: I mean that's just the things we do
in the world.
CLINT: -- okay, and, and I've built cabinets
too. And I've built furniture before. So --
DAVID: Praise the Lord, so?
CLINT: -- you know, we can say, you know, I
mean we, we look at the first, you know, as far as I'm
concerned the most important carpenter, and what better
lifestyle or employment could I model my life after?
DAVID: Exactly. So now we come up hither,
and we see God on the throne. And the father hands the
book to the Lamb. Okay? Now that's what we are
interested in.
CLINT: You know, you know, I, I have
understood from the beginning, David. I've understood
that your mission and the responsibility of you and
your flock you feel differs from what the authorities
xi. x
wi " 0
outside of your complex have, and yet I draw a very
strong analogy between the mission of both, because
there are many Christians out here who want to resolve
this positively and who want to see the Lord's hand on
this situation and bring it --
DAVID: But you also know that there are many
who are not Christians out there. And because --
CLINT: Well, I mean let's talk about the
world, okay? There are many out there who are not.
Christians. I mean, you know, if, if you want to take
a head count and say okay, how many FBI agents are
Christian? Raise your hands. Does that do any good?
What does that accomplish? But they're here. And they
care. And they want to see this resolved non-
violently.
But, but, you know, we, we have two different
plateaus. And I understand that. And you're saying
we're working with a spiritual clock, and we have t
spiritual direction. And you, the authorities out
there, are working on man's clock, and don't ask us to
get on - don't ask us to punch in on your clock.
And yet, to bring it to the courts of the
world and to have that understanding, requires that.
And that's, that's where I've always been at a loss
when each time I felt so positive when you said it's
going to be resolved, because I really saw the Lord's
92-~-QC, J }
is 05
intervention and saying good, let's bring it out, God,
and let's get it on, okay? Let's get it on, and let's
get it resolved in a positive nature, non-violently, in
the courts and in the eyes of man with the protection
and the shroud of the Lord over it when it takes place.
And for me as a Christian to see the reluctance on one
part I say he has to wait for the Lord's guidance, and
the other part I say is this given, is this situation
giving honor and glory to the Lord? And each of your
flock has to stand before the Lord and account for this
time period and account for whether you've given honor
or whether you've taken it away from the
DAVID: Yes.
CLINT: And I want to see that
want to see my accountability, I want to
accountability of the authorities, and I
the accountability and responsibility of
stand that same test that I'm willing to
DAVID: And that's going to beLord.
take place. I
see the
want to see
the Branch
stand.
done. You
see, the means that the negotiators are using now are
the means that we were announcing from the beginning.
And I know that I'm not going to get into it, but when
I bring up the realities that we have experienced since
the first day of the assault --
CLINT: But we're into reality right now --
DAVID: Wait a minute.
M92
4/
7 !
' 5
CLINT: - and today. We're into -- i
DAVID: Wait, wait a minute. Wait a minute.
CLINT: - a Christian reality and a worldly
reality.
DAVID: wait a minute.
CLINT: We're in - this, this is as true --
DAVID: Your voice is rising now.
CLINT: and as strong. And this is as
cutting, David, as any doubleedged sword right now.
There are two realities that we're dealing with, and
they both need to be dealt with positively. And you
and I and everybody else who has any level of
responsibility and authority in these situations have
to stand before the Lord and say Lord, have we brought
shame upon you by our actions?
DAVID: I know I have brought honor. God's
word is the most honorable thing in heaven. Even if it
takes like 2,000 years ago the son of God to be
crucified. we don't want that to happen today, do we?
No, we don't.
You see, this great nation stands on not just
the Constitution, but it stands on bylaws. Stands on
documents. Remember, what I'm trying to share with you
is the knowledge of the seals declared by the prophets.
Now we would not say the prophets had an opinion, would
we?
a.--an .5
CLINT: No. But, but it --
DAVID: An opinion is a weak excuse for
someone to say well, I don't really know, but my
opinion. I'm not giving you an opinion.
CLINT: And, and there, there are some things
that one can only have an opinion on. And there are
some things that one can, can ascribe divine knowledge.
And there's no way to judge that other than to say I
take you at your word. But --
DAVID: No, there's the word of the prophets.
CLINT: - but, I've, I've also been given
the gift of discernment. And I have to use that gift
because it's a responsibility.
DAVID: Well, can we turn to Psalms 40 and
ask ourself who this person is that's speaking here in
Psalms 40? Let's see if this person is correct in his
speaking.
CLINT: Wait a minute.
DAVID: Are you there yet?
CLINT: No, wait a minute. stand by a
second.
[939]
CLINT: You say 14 or 40?
DAVID: Forty.
CLINT: Forty. Okay. Where at in 40?
DAVID: Well, the Psalm. We don't want to
~--0. _ !
Q 8
take it to pieces. I mean, you know, that's where most
people get their opinions is by pieces of verses here
and there.
CLINT: I, I waited patiently for the Lord;
and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
DAVID: Now is this David talking, or is it
somebody else? He brought me up also out of a horrible
pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock.
CLINT: Which is the word. which is prophecy
that we have to stand on.
DAVID: And established my goings. Well, was
Christ taken out of a pit, the worst pit that's ever
been? The crucifixion. The tomb. was God set - did
Christ set himself upon a rock? Is God the rock? Is
God his father?
CLINT: Yeah, but is this talking about
Christ, or is this talking about David's life
experiences her;2 =
DAVID: Let's find out. That's the question
we're trying to resolve. If Christ was taken up to
heaven and put upon a rock, did the father give him a
book and established his goings? He had put a new song
in my mouth. In Revelation, does it not say they sing
a new song --
CLINT: Sing a new song.
DAVID: -- before the throne?
.0,._ 3
.0- 0 9
CLINT: Sure. We sing that every Sunday,
David. '
DAvID: Well, even praise unto our God: Many
shall see it. What will they see? Will they see the
seven seals? And fear, and shall trust in the Lord.
Blessed is that man that maketh the Lord his
trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn
aside to lies.
Now it's true God sits on a throne. It's
true Christ was the one that was slain and resurrected.
It's true that Christ is to reveal seven seals.
Anything contrary to that is a lie.
H Many, O Lord my God, are thy wonderful works
which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-
ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee:
if I would declare and speak of them, they are more
than can be numbered. Who only can reveal what Christ
has to reveal in the seven seals? -
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire;
mine ears has thou opened: burnt offering and sin
offering thou hast not required. Well then what does
God want then?
Well, then said I, lo, I come: in the volume
of the book it is written of me. This takes place
after he's taken to heaven. This takes place after
he's established on the rock. This takes place
ea-n92 '92_92' . .
0 10
sometime after, hereafter.
CLINT: And see what my responsibility is as
a Christian, David, let, let me take you back to 40,
verse 4 again where we talk about, nor such as turn
aside to lies.
DAVID: Exactly.
CLINT: And, and to me lies are false
teachings.
DAVID: Exactly.
CLINT: Okay? And I have to be able to
determine false teachings. And when -- and as, as a
man, we have certain capabilities. And these are,
these are very small. But part of what we do is, is
measure the word of a man and measure who he is, so I
can hear his words. And that's where and whether you
want to hear this, David, or whether you believe in it,
you know, I look to strike that balance that I have to
between Christianity and responsibility.
DAVID: Well, sure.
CLINT: Okay? And I'm striking that balance
saying that as a Christian I have the gift of
discernment. And I have an ability --
DAVID: So you know #-
CLINT: to discern --
DAVID: -- you know how to judge a man who
teaches the seven seals before he even teaches them,
~44:' . 92_
9292.~ H,92__,<§_;" Q 11right? w
CLINT: No, I need to know the man. And what
I'm saying is that the world needs to know the man
before they can hear the seals. Okay?
DAVID: Well, that's not so. Because youi
see, you cannot judge Christ before you know his
doctrine. Because his doctrine is not his. It's the
father's. '
Now when it says here I, verse 9, have
preached righteousness in the great congregation.
Before Christ comes to earth, he reveals these seals in
heaven. And then he comes to earth to seal people with
the knowledge of this truth.
CLINT: No, but, but Christ also met people
where they were, David.
DAVID: Exactlyu
CLINT: He, he met them exactly where they --
he didn't care if they were a taxpayer or a tax
collector or a whore or whatever it was, he met them
where they were and dealt with them at that level. And
he shared with them on a level that they would know him
and they would then understand him.
DAVID: Christ never conformed to the wishes
of the people of his day. They tried to make him a
king and he would not. That's why they hated him.
They tried to get him to do miracles when they wanted
Q.-Q5, !
J 12
and he ld not. He made himself of no reputation.
That's the reason why the majority of the people
rejected him.
Now if you really want to see what's going on
right now, then let's turn to Psalms 89, and I'll show
you a prophecy in fulfillment. I'm sure you'll like
this one. It's Psalms 89.
CLINT: Do you say that tongue-incheek, or
do you say that honestly?
DAVID: I - look. Sighing.!
CLINT: I, you know, I -- there - I, I
don't, I don't want to, you know, I'm here because I
care about you. And I'm here for --
DAVID: Are you here to learn the seals?
CLINT; And I'm here because I care about
your flock. And I'm here because I think this is what
the Lord wants me to do.
DAVID: Okay, well, here is something the
Lord wants us to do and that's here. Christ is the
root and offspring of David. Now David has a wonderful
covenant that he reveals in Psalms 89. And he talks
about his son Christ here. He talks about his
righteousness that one day God will come through his
seed. And one day God will establish his kingdom in
heaven. And let's find out what happens.
Says I will sing of the mercies of the Lord
92~¢92v
, 9292 V
if O
forever: with my mouth will I make known my13
faithfulness to all generations. Christ said, Mercy
shall be built up forever: thy faithfulness thou shalt
establish in the very heavens. And what's more
faithful than God and his rainbow, right?
I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have
sworn unto David my servant. Thy seed will I establish
forever, and build up thy throne to all generations.
The heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord:
thy faithfulness also in the congregation of saints.
And it's true. The heavens have received Christ. The
heavens have bowed down to Christ, the son of David.
CLINT: And the wonders are set forth in the
book that I have right in front of me.
DAVID: Exactly. For who in the heaven can
be compared to the Lord? Who among the sons of the
mighty can be likened to the Lord? Not Adam. Not
Noah. Not Moses. Not Elijah. Not Enoch. Not any of
the prophets. Nor even, even the angels.
God is greatly to be feared in the
of the saints, and to be had in reverence of
that are about him. O Lord of hosts, that's
who sits on the throne, who is a strong Lordassembly
all them
the father
like unto
thee? Or to thy faithfulness round about thee? What's
round about him? A rainbow.
Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the
-.--an}
92/rs 14waves gereof arise, thou stillest them. Thou has
broken Rahab in pieces, one that is slain. Now how is
Rahab the harlot broken? By faith. She knew she
couldn't fight against God, so she helped the servants,
didn't she? She was saved by faith. That's the way
God likes to do it.
Thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy
strong arm. The heavens are thine, the earth also is
thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou
hast founded them. The north and the south thou hast
created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy
name.
Thou hast a might arm: strong is thy hand,
and high is thy right hand. What's in God's right had?
What does he hold above all the heaven? His word.
What's his word about? His son. That's why it's
called justice and judgment are the habitation of thy
throne. Well, mercy and truth shall go --
CLINT: And we're talking about those two
things being resolved in this situation. we're talking
about justice taking place. We're talking about
justice, and see maybe you and I, maybe we're, this is
you, you and I, and maybe this is where we differ. But
I believe that book. I believe that book is held in
his hand. And I believe that justice and judgment will
take place in the situation for everyone that was
~._-an»' ~ v
.M;>_ U; 15involvrin the situation.
DAVID: I believe so too. But let's --
CLINT: But, but I, but I don't see a
reluctance spoken about here to face that judgment.
DAVID: Well, let's finish the Psalm. Okay?
Mercy and truth shall go before thy face. Who's going
to come and reveal this? The Lamb.
Blessed is the people that know the joyful
sound. It's called the song of the Lamb. They shall
walk, 0 Lord, in the light of thy countenance. You
know the father is watching you right now, right? He's
watching me. He's watching everybody.
In thy name shall they rejoice all the day:
and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. For
thou are the glory of their strength: and in thy
favour our horn shall be exalted. For the Lord is our
defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
Thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and
said, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have
exalted one chosen out of the people. I have found
David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
with whom my hand shall be established: and mine arm
also shall strengthen him.
The enemy shall not exact upon him, which is
taxes, nor the son of wickedness afflict him. I will
beat down his foes before his face, and plague them
Q--44 ~ z
92 0 16
that hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall
be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
I will set his hand also in the sea, and his
right hand in the rivers. He shall cry unto me, Thou
art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the
kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him
forevermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
What is his covenant? Seven seals.
His seed also will I make to endure for ever,
and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children
forsake my law, walk not in my judgments --
CLINT: When, when we're talking about the
covenant, could that also be the New Testament?
DAVID: It is. The New Testament is the
seven seals.
CLINT: No, they -- there's -- okay. Now
there is much rare to the New Testament than the seven
seals indiscernible! --
DAVID: Uhuh. The new -- the seven seals is
the last part of the New Testament. That is the
finality of the New Testament.
CLINT: But, but what, what men need is the
gospel which is part of the New Testament.
DAVID: In Revelation 14, the everlasting
gospel is the messages that tell you to fear God that
»..-4K
ii 4 17his jugant has come. Which that jlgment reveals the
seven seals. You're right. T
So but if they break my statutes, and keep
not my commandments; then will I visit their
transgressions with the rod, and their iniquity with
stripes. But nevertheless, my lovingkindness will I '
not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness
to fail.
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the
thing that is gone out of my mouth. Once have I sworn
by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His
seed, which we know is Christ, shall endure forever,
and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be
established for ever as the moon, and as the faithful
witness in the heaven.
Sure. Come on up hither. See? There is
Christ. See the witness? See the seven seals? But
what happens to Christ? But thou has cast off and
abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
Why?
Thou hast made void the covenant of thy
servant: thou hast profaned his crown by what?
Casting it to the ground. Thou hast broken down all
his hedges. Look around on this place outside here.
Thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin. Look at
this. Terrible what happens to Christ. All that pass
92
s.-IQE .
1
0 18
by thzway --
CLINT: Well, David, you can go through and
you can draw analogies and we can say - A
DAVID: No, no, no. Let's let the
prophecy -- _
CLINT: -- we can say it's terrible that you
brought these things on.
DAVID: I didn't bring these things on. You
never found nothing illegal here.
CLINT: No, no, no, David. Now wait a
minute.
DAVID: Now let's wait a minute. You --
let's finish the Psalm --
CLINT: David, I'm not talking - okay,
we're, we're talking, you know, if you want to start
talking again -- no, no. You're the_first one that
jumps and said that took us out of the Scriptures and
said look outside again. And I'm saying look outside.
Have you, had you been willing to come --
DAVID: Did you tear up our hedges?
CLINT: David, had you been willing to step
forward and resolve this, no hedges would have been
torn up.
DAVID: Ever since day one --
CLINT: No hedges would have been torn up.
DAVID: You know why?
~.-1¬ » 92
»® ,. 19AK CLINT: Had you come out and say here I am.
I am here to resolve this situation. I'm here to --
DAVID: You are not informed.
CLINT: -- stand before God and man. And I
will resolve this --
DAVID: Clint --
CLINT: -- because the Lord will have his
judgment on this.
DAVID: You're not informed.
CLINT: Oh, David. I mean that's, that --
DAVID: You need to go back over the tapes.
CLINT: No. From, from day one your
willingness to come forward and in the Scriptures that
we've already looked at say I'm willing to come forward
and stand before the Lord and stand before man and be
judged if I sin or if I didn't.
DAVID: Clint --
CLINT: And I haven't seen you do that,
David.
DAVID: My book is going to teach everything
here that I'm not able to teach you. Because every
time I try to go through these Psalms you always
interrupt. Because you have an ideal, and when you see
something start to come to light, you fight against it.
CLINT: No, no.
DAVID: It says in verse 41 --
92.-.492 .
_ }3 . 20
" CLINT. See --
DAVID: - all that pass by the way spoil
him: he is a reproach to his neighbors. It says thou
hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou has
made his, his enemies to rejoice. They think it's
funny.
CLINT: No.
DAVID: Thou has turned the edge of his
sword --
CLINT: No, David.
DAVID: -- hast not made him to stand in the
battle. What battle?
CLINT: Let me tell you that I, I don't think
anything --
DAVID: What battle?
CLINT: -- is funny. But I've got a real
responsibility to discern and identify whether one is a
true prophet or a false prophet. And I'm troubled.
DAVID: Okay.
CLINT: And I'm very troubled --
DAVID: Let's --
CLINT: -- with this.
DAVID: Let's finish --
CLINT: My, my heart --
DAVID: -- the word --
CLINT: -- and my spirit is troubled with,
s-1x
~92 -~ Q/A =1
with what I hear.
DAVID: Let's finish the word of God. It
says in verse 44, thou has; made his glory to cease.
You know one day you can be at the top of the universe,
and the next day you can be right back down here again.
And you know what? Those who don't want to know the
seven seals, they're not going to want to know you. I
don't care who you think you are.
Thou hast cast his throne down to the ground.
Sure, you love the Lord, Clint, right?
CLINT: Absolutely, David.
DAVID: But I'm telling you you don't know
him.
CLINT: Yes, I do. I, I do --
DAVID: The days of his youth hast thou
shortened: thou hast covered him with shame.
CLINT: No, now see you're, you're going
right past that again. And to say I don't know the
Lord --
DAVID: Who is this person in this Psalm?
CLINT: -- that's not correct. That's not
correct, David.
DAVID: who is this person in this Psalm?
CLINT: And to sell -- to tell someone they
don't know the Lord and to take away that personal
relationship --
0.-i.- " x
/' _92_i 22
V DAVID: Look --
CLINT: - from someone is wrong, David.
DAVID: That's exactly what happened --
CLINT: I really believe that's wrong.
DAVID: 2,000 years ago, Clint. Let's be
honest.
CLINT: And you're attempting to take away a
personal relationship --
DAVID: Hey.
CLINT: - I have and that's incorrect.
DAVID: Clint, let's be honest. The
Pharisees said to Christ, we be not sons born of
fornication. We be the sons of God. Christ tried to
tell them opposite. It says thou hast covered him with
shame. Thou hast cast his -
CLINT: And, and this is the shame that I'm
worried about that this situation is bringing shame
upon the Lord and, and it's --
DAVID: It's bringing shame upon me. You're
correct.
CLINT: No, no. It's bringing shame upon the
Lord, David. l
DAVID: Hey, who do you think I am?
CLINT: Who do you think you are?
DAVID: I know who I am. Do you want to know
the seven seals or not?
¢.~¢. 4
23
CLINT: No, David. who do you -- you know,
if, if you feel you're the Christ then say it. But if
not, then I have a personal relationship with the Lord,
and I don't feel that relationship is with you.
DAVID: Well, you shouldn't go by your
feelings. Can we turn to Psalms 2 real quick and look
at something? This is a problem that we're actually
dealing with today.
CLINT: If, if we get to Psalm 2 that's,
that's a very messianic Psalm. It deals strictly with
Christ. And I don't have the evidence I'm talking to
Christ.
DAVID: Well, okay. That's fine. But we
know that Psalms 2 is about the heathen raging and the
people imagine a vain thing, right? Let's just
strictly look at it in the light of Christ. Not me,
just Christ. Your Christ, okay? i
The kings of the earth set themselves, and
the rulers now they're take counsel together, don't
they?
CLINT: Well, you know, if, if you want to
tell me who you are, I'll hear it, David. But you
can't say to me who am I and expect me to answer you
are the Christ. Because I have not seen evidence of
that.
DAVID: Okay. Well, let's just look at
-"a. - =,
a 5 j _., 24
Psalms 2 and look at the evidence of Psalms 2 of who
Christ is. Forget about me. Don't let me be your
stumbling block.
CLINT: No, you're the one that brought it
up, David. You brought it up. And I responded to it.
And now you're saying to forget about it.
DAVID: I'm the one who told you that the
father gave the book to the Lamb. And I'm here to show
you the seven seals. Now you're not ready to receive
that so --
CLINT: And, and who is the Lamb?
DAVID: -- let's just, let's just receive
what we can receive.
CLINT: And who is the Lamb, David?
DAVID: The Lamb is Christ, the son of God.
Clearly. Scripture teaches it clearly. But there's,
there's so much Scripture here we need to look at some
of it first. ~
CLINT: No, you know, it's just that by
implication, David, you're saying if you can open the
seals --
DAVID: Then I am Christ, the son of God.
CLINT: - then men should proclaim you're
Christ, the son of God.
DAVID: Exactly. But I will never say that I
am Christ, the son of God, because that's not
~.--atx
25
necessary. Let God's word show you who I am. Let me
show you -- ' »
CLINT: No, see, see, that's, that's where I
have a problem. Because it can be only the Lamb. And
I can't say that that's you, and you won't say that
it's you. Therefore, I, I can't continue on that
theme. I really can't.
DAVID: Well, let's just look at Psalms 2
then. Can we please do that? Is that all right?
CLINT: No, it's --
DAVID: Please?
CLINT: No, I've - I, I really feel this is
wrong, David. I, I feel this is spiritually wrong.
DAVID: Why is it wrong? Forget about me.
Let's just learn a prophecy about Christ in Psalms 2.
There's nothing wrong with that. It says the kings of
the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel
together, against the Lord, and against his anointed.
We know the anointed one is Christ, Jesus Christ, the
son of God.
But they're saying let us break their bands
asunder and cast their cords from us. What do they not
want? They don't want to know the seven seals.
CLINT: No, but see this takes me back to
Revelation, chapter 5, moving on --
DAVID: Chapter 4, exactly.
92~qI92 -92 .
5
92. .92V!! 9» 2s
CLINT: -- moving on in chaoter 5 again
and -- l
DAVID: So he that sits in the heavens,
that's the father, shall laugh. The Lord is laughing
at those who will not listen to the man teaching the
seven seals --
CLINT: No. No, no. I -- it says he who is
worthy, David. And --
DAVID: Exactly. And you --
CLINT: -- I don't --
DAVID: -- won't know until he comes to show
you the seven seals. Now it says right here in verse 7
I will declare the decree: the Lord said unto me, Thou
art my Son; this day have I, have I begotten thee.
Yes. I, I am he. And the Lord did say to me I have
begotten thee. Because in 1959 is when I was begotten
again. Now that may be too hard for you to
understand -- =
CLINT: No, begotten again and, and I can go
and sure with you when I was born again, David. And I
could say I would hope you would understand that.
DAVID: Well, the thing of it is you being
born again, you're born under the grace of Christ which
is for all men. Not even just Christians. Buddhist,
Islamic, all faiths who don't know what they're doing
can only do what they know. And that's why you can't
Quad.9 92
~U92 ~ 27
judge anybody else, because Christ mediates in heaven
for the safety of all souls. C
If you were a pygmy, and you was taught that
you're supposed to worship a rock, and if you do what
you see to do, and it's all you know, then you're in
Christ. That's the way it is where I come from.
But when the world has to come to its final
judgment, there's one question to be herald amongst all
nations. Who is worthy? And every scholar and every
theologian and everyone who claims the name of Christ
who's under his mercy remember are to come honestly,
and they're to say well, my opinion is this. My
opinion is that.
And then I'm supposed to say well, those are
good opinions. You've done really well. But here's
the thing. The seven seals are none but what they
claim to be. And so in Psalms 45, God's the one
talking, and the king is Christ. And he's going to get
married in Revelation 19. I want to invite you to a
party, to the marriage of the Lamb. I want to unite
your mind with the minds of the prophets which is the
mind of Christ which is the mind of God to bring about
a perfect harmonious deliverance.
CLINT: See, see that, that union takes
place, that union takes place within me on a daily
basis. And to say that until you reveal the seven
s--1 92
seals to me that that union is not correct I, I really
don't believe that. I - i
DAVID: Well, now, it's not complete.
CLINT: He, he is, he is in me, David. And
you can't take that --
DAVID: Who put him there?
CLINT: -- away from me.
DAVID: who put him there?
CLINT: I put him there.
DAVID: Now wait a minute, when you was a
child, who first told you about Christ? That's what
I'm asking.
CLINT: What are you getting at, David?
DAVID: I'm saying that someone told you
about Christ. Someone showed you Christ. Either your
mother or your father or your neighbor or someone came
to you in meekness and in the spirit of Christ and
related to you - ,
CLINT: Yeah, but there's a difference in
someone telling me and then from me to accept and take
it into me.
DAVID: Exactly.
CLINT: Two, two different situations. I
mean someone can tell me about World War II, or someone
can tell me about Buddhism or Catholicism or something
else, but it's, but it's my choice and to take it in.
.414?
92z;<i' v =9
DAVID: Right. And so I'm asking you and
begging you if you'd please look with me in the
Scripture and receive what I have to share with you.
CLINT: Well, you know, you know, it, it,
until --
DAVID: I'm just knocking at the door, you
know.
CLINT: -- until I'm convinced, until in my
heart, until in the discernment that's been given me
I'm convinced you're the Lamb, I can't, David. I
honestly can't do that.
DAVID: But you can't be convinced unless you
first listen to this fool and what you, and what you
appear to think that I am and, and see if I can't show
you these seals.
CLINT: No, it's, it's not what I --
DAVID: Because God's not a liar. I can't
deceive you. Either it's going --
CLINT: I've --
DAVID: - to be the seals or it's not.
CLINT: I've not come with a predisposition
that you are or that you're not. I'm, I'm measuring
you on your words and on the discernment that's given
to me. And based upon that so far, I'm not comfortable
and, with who others may say you are within your flock
~.-1* '~.
9
I became to look the way I am or in Psalms 61. It says
all my members were written in thy book, which in
continuance were fashioned, when as yet there --
CLINT: How, how do you identify with, with
Isaiah 53? _
DAVID: Well, very clearly you can see in
Isaiah 53 a continuation of Isaiah 52. In Isaiah 52,
we deal with the one who brings glad tidings.
Therefore my people shall know my name. What name?
The name of God. They shall know in that day I am the
Lord that speak.
CLINT: Yeah, see now I --
DAVID: Then --
CLINT: -- I can't ascribe that name to you,
David.
DAVID: Well, wait a minute. You don't know
that name yet. In Revelation 19, his name is the word
of God. ,
CLINT: Yeah, see I - no, see that's the
difference. I know the word of God, but I don't
ascribe the name to you from what --
DAVID: Well, then in Isaiah --
CLINT: - from what I've heard and what I've
seen. I honestly don't.
DAVID: Wait a minute. But you haven't heard
or seen hardly anything yet, because you keep
Q441
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interrupting me.
Let's take a look at Proverbs 30 real quick.
Now Proverbs 30 is a, is a very wonderful truth that we
should all look at. Here we see Solomon taking on
different names. And it's a prophecy. The words of
Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man
spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and to Ucal.
CLINT: Wait, wait. You're, you're in
Proverbs 2?
DAVID: Chapter 30.
CLINT: Okay.
DAVID: I'm sorry. Chapter 30. Now verse 2.
CLINT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
DAVID: Surely I am more brutish than any
man, and have not the understanding of a man. I
neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the
holy. Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?
Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath
bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established
all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what
is his son's name?
CLINT: Every word of God is pure: he is a
shield unto them that put their trust in him.
DAVID: Add thou not unto his words --
CLINT: Add thou not unto his words, least he
reprove thee --
s-mi3Q! 3.
h DAVID: And thou be found ar.
CLINT: and thou be found a liar.
DAVID: So also in Psalms 40 it says blessed
are those that make the Lord their trust, respecteth
not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. I come
in the volume of the book that's written of me.
cum: I No --
DAVID: If you don't let me show the seven
seals --
CLINT: I, I have to tell you, David, that I
came with an open mind, and I wanted to have the
opportunity to talk to you because I wanted the Lord to
work through me, and I wanted him to just, to work
through me in the discernment that he's granted me so I
could hear and I can understand. And I don't find the
fruit in you that allows me to, to believe. And I
haven't heard you say that would allow me to identify
you as the Lamb on my own.
DAVID: Well, we know one thing. And that
is, the truth is the Lamb, isn't it?
CLINT: Well, the truth sets me free, David.
DAVID: If we continue in his doctrine, we
will know the seven seals which is the truth. And the
truth will set us free.' But if when there's time no
longer we do not allow a brother, a brother that we may
not understand, we may not accept, to open up to us the
m.-1 92
0 O 34
seals, we might just find ourselves fighting against
Christ. i
CLINT: You know --
DAVID: There's a possibility you know.
CLINT: How many years did Christ spend on
earth, David?
DAVID: Thirty-three years.
CLINT: And how many times did he talk about
the seven seals?
DAVID: All through by trying to establish
that his doctrine was not his own, it was the preface.
That's why the gospel wasn't finished then. That's why
he committed his spirit into the hand of God. So that
the followers of Christ would see that really Christ
was the fulfillment of prophecy. And that finally in
the latter days the gentiles, who are called to this
blessed hope, they would have a chance to have the
prophecies so -nat when he came again he would open up
to them the understanding of the Scriptures. Just like
in the last part of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It
says and he opened to them the Scriptures.A
CLINT: I don't -- David, I guess where I'm
at, and I don't want to take away from your word to
your flock. But to me as a Christian in my ability to
listen and discern, I don't hear it, David. I'm sorry.
No, and I'm not even sorry. It's just where I, it's
sand~ 9
0 ' as
just where I feel the Lord moving through me with what
you're sharing and with what's taken place and with
where you are in space and time right now, I'm just not
there, David. And I just don't, I, I don't see the
Lord in this matter.
DAVID: Well, remember there's seven seals.
You know, in, in Romans 6 --
CLINT: The Lord -- when Christ walked the
earth, he didn't beat the people over the head with the
seven seals.
DAVID: Oh, wait a minute. Remember, that is
God's word. Don't say that God beats the people with
the truth. He doesn't. But the truth is a hammer to
the wicked though. That's why Jeremiah says what is
the wheat into the chaff? Is not my word like a
hammer? Does it not break in pieces? I mean listen to
the prophets.
CLINT: David, I do. I do. I --
DAVID: And the thing --
CLINT: -- I spent more years on earth than
you have listening to the prophets --
DAVID: Well, that's true.
CLINT: -- in all honesty. I really have.
And you know, I, I wanted the opportunity to share with
you. I wanted the opportunity for you to experience a
brother Christian who happens to be an FBI agent who
92..-A» 2
U 36
would do anything that the Lord would have him do to
resolve this and give glory to Christ. And I don't see
a willingness, David, on your part to do that.
DAVID: I -- look, did I not tell you I was
writing out the seven seals? Did I not tell you I'd be
out as soon as I finished my work?
CLINT: David, you've said --
DAVID: That way --
CLINT: -- you've said time and again you
were going to do things. You know, I never saw, I
never read anywhere in the Scriptures ever where the
Lord promised he would do something and then took it
back again.
DAVID: How about I'll come quickly? Is
2,000 years quickly? Answer me that. Can you
honestly - many, many skeptics of the world say Christ
said he'd be back quickly. What does he think quickly
is? 5
CLINT: Well, you know, if, if we want to
look back in the Greek and talk about what the tense in
Greek meant, you know, that's the, you know, you said
you didn't --
DAVID: Fine.
CLINT: -- you said you didn't want to get
into these type of dissertations, and now you're doing
it again.
~i
a 37
DAVID: well, what does quickly mean in the
Greek? l
CLINT: Yeah, well, what's, what's your
interpretation, David? I mean --
DAVID: Well, it means exactly that. It
means a short time.
h CLINT: Well, and what, and what are we told
about a day is to how many years and how many
indiscernible! is to a day --
DAVID: Well, each day for a year according
to Daniel and Numbers 25 and 29. But the thing of it
is that according to Peter a day unto God is 1,000
years.
CLINT: Exactly.
DAVID: So he it's been 2,000 years. So
he didn't come quickly.
CLINT: So we're talking about, so we're
talking about 2 days. That's pretty quick. That's
pretty quick.
DAVID: I.didn't say 2 days. Did you, did
you think I said 2 days?
CLINT: No, if we're saying a day is to 1,000
years and we're talking about 2,000 years, we're
talking about potentially 2 days.
DAVID: well, true.
CLINT: Right?
-. -45 .
I
38
DAVID: Right. So the thing of it is but to
the carnal mind would that be considered a true
statement by Christ? But I can tell you why it's, it's
taken so long.
CLINT: I don't, I don't consider, David,
that you've done true statements that you've made true
statements that, that would bring glory unto God.
DAVID: Well, I'm hoping that everything that
I've said is taped. Because like, you know, if you
take a look at Hebrews 15:4 I believe it is
whatever things were written aforetime were
our learning. That we through the patience
of the Scriptures might have hope.
You know, now the God of patience
consolation grant you to be likeminded one
another according to the Christ Jesus. Nowsays
written for
and comfort
and
towards
if we're to
have the same mind like Christ, then if Christ receives
the seven seals in heaven, we should receive these
things too, shouldn't we?
CLINT: David, I, I guess where I'm at is
that if you believe, if you know that your
responsibility is to complete your manuscript and then
come out, I think you should do that.
DAVID: Well, I've got to.
CLINT: I think you should --
DAVID: Because see on the other hand from
~-.4.__ 3
0 39
your point of view, I agree with you too. You know,
I'm in America. You'll see in my past records - now
that 1988 deal if you really look at it you'll find
out, you know, we, we did nothing wrong. I mean you
might say whoa, what, guns. But see, we were
instructed also. That's something that's very intimate
with the Sheriff's Department. But we came out of it,
and we plan to come on out of this one too.
And as far as those who have lost their
lives, we regret that. But we know that God is
merciful.
Now I'm not going to sit here and say that
what the authorities did to us was anything, because I
know that, that there's a great offense to that. But
remember, you know, we lost loved ones too. And now it
comes down to the real meaning of love. God is going
to judge us all whether righteous or wicked.
CLINT: Oh, yes he will, David.
DAVID: And the thing of it is we know God is
merciful. But God is also a God of judgment and
vengeance. And for those who have not shown mercy, God
will not show mercy. And we want to, to tell all men
that God is a God of mercy.
And as long as this shadow is over my head,
when I come out you know as well as I do there's not
going to be any time for me to sit down and say well,
Sudfl: » P
I I, 40
let's turn to Psalms 2. Let's turn to Psalms 40. It's
just not going to be.
CLINT: Well, David, the same time that you
have to complete your manuscript would be afforded you
if you came out 15 minutes from now. The exact same
time. You would have better conditions to write, to
dictate, to pass on, to duplicate much better, much
better conditions than what you have right now.
They - it --
DAVID: That is not true.
CLINT: on, it is.
DAVID: It is not.
CLINT: It is. Well, see now that's saying
I'm lying to you, David. And I don't, I don't and I
never would lie to you. And --
DAVID: Well, that's what you say. But you
also got on the phone and told me you wanted to know
what my beliefs were. And every time I've tried to
take you to a Scripture, you've slightly moved it off
and slightly brought in this and brought in that.
Really you have your beliefs. And you're --
CLINT: No -
DAVID: - and you're settled in your
beliefs. And you're confirming your beliefs. And your
belief is your belief. Now you're free. You're on the
outside.
~41R
0 Q 41
CLINT: You've never given me a straight
answer, David, as to - '
DAVID: Look. If the seven seals are true,
yes, I'm the Lamb of God. Yes, I'm Christ. If the
seven seals are true. But you don't know if they are
according to my testament, because you haven't heard it
yet.
CLINT: Well, I'll --
DAVID: You see, I'm giving you the benefit
of the doubt. Look --
CLINT: I'll look forward -
V DAVID: on the other hand all I am is a
good friend of yours.
CLINT: -- I'll look forward to reading, I'll
look forward to reading your manuscript, David.
DAVID: well, praise the Lord. Otherwise, I
don't expect from anybody any respect that I don't
expect you to give anybody else. That's the way I've
always been.
CLINT: No, I, I would never treat you any
way other than I would treat myself or expect --
DAVID: which is Christianity.
CLINT: to be treated, David.
DAVID: If you find a bum in the street,
that's Christ too. You see, every man of God is a son
of God. Some sons of God don't know that. Some sons
~..¢ !
42
of God don't know what we know. You're appointed a
minister by God to impart to others what you yourself
have received.
CLINT: which I do on a daily basis in an
honest --
DAVID: which is what your responsibility is
to do.
CLINT: - forthright way.
DAVID: But now it comes time that we have to
come into the unity of the faith. And the final faith
to be revealed from faith to faith is the seven seals.
And I have never cut down anybody's interpretation of
the seven seals. But I've always asked the question,
well can you show me from the prophets where these
seals are found?
CLINT: David, through my discernment --
well, I think you should spend your time and finish
your manuscrip-, and if you're led that that should be
shared, I think that's what you should do.
DAVID: I've got to. And it's not because
you say so, it's because I'm bound. See, I don't get
to do what I want to do.
CLINT: But what you need to understand is
that if in fact your reluctance to stand before God on
the outside of your complex and man and resolve this --
DAVID: I'm not.
sq' 43
CLINT: -- is, is only has to do with the
transcription of the seven seals, then that's time
that's not needed to get the message out. And how many
souls will be lost in the next week or 2 weeks or 3
weeks if you feel the seals is going to impact upon
them that the faster you got out the faster you could
share that. And I see that as a responsibility of
yours that you're not taking on, David. And you're
responsible for that.
DAVID: Well, I appreciate that. And I can
understand the way you're seeing it. But again like I
say, this truth is not of man. It's of God. And
remember, when you come up hither, that's a big
statement and a big step to take. Because that's
heaven. And I don't think I've ever met anybody in
this world that's gone there yet or come back.
CLINT: Well, I look forward to it.
DAVID: Well, and I'd like to show you some
things about it. Because maybe I have. That's
something to consider.
CLINT: Well, see maybes and possible and
if --
DAVID: Well, if I told you had you wouldn't
believe me anyway. You'd say oh, David, come on.
Laughing.! I mean it's just like 2,000 years ago.
Christ says I tell you the truth, and you won't believe
v--n ¥
D 44
me. Then they, then they - after all that he did
they, they brought him before the Pharisees, well, tell
us now. Are thou the Christ or no? He says if I tell
you, you will not believe me.
A It's just, you know, we've got such a greater
foundation of many prophets. Christ spoke through
Moses. Christ spoke through Joshua. Christ spoke
through the Judges. Christ spoke through Isaiah and
the prophets.
CLINT: I just, I just want you to be
careful, David, that, that you don't bring discredit
and dishonor on Christianity.
DAVID: Well, now I think Christianity
nominally speaking has brought much dishonor, discredit
upon itself. You know - I
CLINT: And each new person that --
DAVID: -- Christianity has a pretty dark
history. L
CLINT: Each new person that stands up and
makes a claim and brings more upon it.
DAVID: Exactly. Now remember as far as
those two witnesses are concerned, Zechariah tells you
point blank what he was shown. And I would not show
you any otherwise. The two anointed ones sits down by
the Lord of the whole earth. We know 2,000 years ago
that Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses and
Q...-an-. 4.5
Elijah appeared to him, correct? correct.
CLINT: That's correct.
DAVID: And we know that Christ is the one
who bridges the Old Testament law of Moses and the New
Testament grace which was revealed through Elijah.
Elijah, he rebuked strongly. And God brought a famine
for 3-1/2 years. But it was strictly to bring his
children around to realize the importance of listening
to him.
CLINT: But just -- the --
End of tape 232.!
~--:9i
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO 8 FIREARMS
TAPE #233
4/15/93 ' 4/16/93
Pu : _ AOMO
Q4~ .
!O O 2
Tape 233!
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: -- message you have to
share is so important that mankind needs to hear it.
The reluctance to complete it in the most -- in the
fastest means possible and those that'll be lost
because of that message not --
DAVID KORESH: You don't have to worry --
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: -- being shared.
DAVID KORESH: - about them. They're znot
going to be lost based upon what they don't know.
Every man is going to be judged by what he does now.
Now, everybody knows that there's this crazy guy here
in Waco that's supposed to be teaching the seven seals.
They're going to say to themselves: what is that?
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: David --
DAVID KORESH: And they're going all over the
place --
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: You have to respond, you
have to respond to what you think your level of
responsibility is and you have to do that. And --
DAVID KORESH: Well, it's not been easy with
you. Because, like I say, I tried to show you some
things, and every time we start looking into it -- you
just cannot be me and, so, that's where you say that
you discern in your spirit that I'm just trying to
deceive you.
~..-4' 2
I I
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: What, what I want,
David, is for you then to complete your manuscript if
that's the way you feel led and to share that and to
bring your flock out, further share that message --
DAVID KORESH: Well, that's the glory of our
generation --
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: -- as quickly as
possible.
DAVID KORESH: -- isn't it?
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: And --
DAVID KORESH: To not only stand before God
and honesty and singleness of heart, but to be able to
stand before men and to let men judge likewise.
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: And I'll see you when
you come out, David.
DAVID KORESH: would you like us to send the
tape to you so you can study it more thoroughly?
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: The decision is made
that we're not picking anything up like that.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, okay.
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: And that's not my
decision.
DAVID KORESH: Okey-doke.
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: Okay?
DAVID KORESH: Okey-doke. Well, I'd better
get back to my work then.
.41D O 4
it, David~
!
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: We'll look forward to
DAVID
then. Bye-bye.
long time
here then
bit.
af-- so I
Oh, yeah.DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
or --
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:KORESH: And I'll talk to you later
*¢***
Hello?
SCHNEIDER: Good morning.
Steve? "
SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
Dick.
SCHNEIDER: Dick?
How are you doing?
SCHNEIDER: Not too bad. It's been a
Oh, yeah. Been awhile.
SCHNEIDER: Where have you been?
Oh, here and there.
SCHNEIDER:* So, you haven't been around
No, I've been here for, for a little
SCHNEIDER: So, you're back in then?
Well, you said you were coming out
thought I'd be here for you to come out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I said I was coming out?
I meant, I meant that.
v.--vI. 2
U O 5
DICK: Just when, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.' There's always been
that time element.
DICK: Yeah. Well.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: God's watching to see what
everybody's doing and, you know, we've been trying to
communicate as best as we can, but, of course, words
fall on deaf ears.
DICK: Well, I'm not sure what you mean by
that. What words are you talking about and whose deaf
ears?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, they a lot
of times - a lot of the phone calls lately have been
in the nature where they're, of course, wanting us to
get into the system, which we will be doing. But I
keep on reminding them of the court that I fear more
than any, and that's more for yourselves, you know. We
all will stand in that court.
DICK: Well, you, you know, I know what
you're saying, Steve, but, of course --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know you do.
DICK: we're, we're ready I mean, we
can deal with that issue ourselves.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, it's an --
DICK: You know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: The reason I was going to
-.~-vi%- ' 1
il O 6
give you a ring right now is because one of the
Bradleys ran into the building where the children were
right in their room there, and I think - I don't know
if one -- if it hit right by the crib or what, but
there was a number of them started crying.
DICK: When's that? Now just recently, you
mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: Just moments ago?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Did, didn't they tell you
ahead of time they were going to do that or --
DICK: Well, I'm not aware of it, but -- you
know, it, it's certainly possible. I'm not doubting
your word. We -- what happened, now? What side of the
building are we talking about?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:= Well, I, I think you
probably know --
DICK: No. I'm, I'm
STEVE SCHNEIDER: YOU okay.
DICK: quite truthful with you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's right in the front.
DICK: Okay. Right in front of the building
just moments --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
~--viI _K
Q I 1
DICK: - ago?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They just came and told me
that the children were crying. Apparently, there was
one that was right there in the room there. So.
DICK: Well, I - we, we can check on that
and, and I'm --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: okay.
DICK: -- not sure why. But, on the other
hand, I, I certainly am not doubting you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. I'm, I'm sure you
wouldn't doubt me.
DICK: You know, the - you, you mentioned
earlier that you guys -- you know, you talked about
coming out. And, of course, that's, that's the
question everybody's asked: when? We all know you're
coming out. You have to come out sooner or later.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
DICK: Obviously. We, we
I think that's been the, the issue,
have tried to discuss with you over
days, as far as that's at least,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.all know that. And
that the people
the last couple of
that's --
DICK: -- been my understanding.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
...4I.' _ I
0 O 8
DICK: And, of course, there's all this talk
about when David's finished writing the - you know,
his interpretation of the seven seals, that that might
be meaningful. And, of course, someone suggested --
well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Did you get -- Dick, did
you get to hear anything about the conversation you had
with Clint? I mean either comments or the tape itself
or anything?
DICK: No. I, I know that he and Clint spoke
wi-- f
…[truncated]