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U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #164
3/25/93
a=ao 2.14. - 9:51 1>.n.
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Tape 164!
JOHN: -- and it's going to happen pretty
soon.
MR. MALCOLM: And it's going to happen.
JOHN: And you all will be out of there.
MR. MALCOLM: I know.
JOHN: Okay?
MR. MALCOLM: indiscernible!
JOHN: You all will be out of there and
there's not, there's not going to be --
MR. MALCOLM: How long ~- Could you give me a
time period, the maximum time you're going to allow?
Two weeks, two months, one week?
JOHN: Do you, do you like to listen to
somebody?
MR. MALCOLM: Yes.
JOHN: I, I can't talk to you and try to
listen to you at the same time.
MR. MALCOLM: Okay. Finish what you re
saying, but I had another question. I wonder how long
you're going to let -- how long -- Can you give me
that? '
JOHN: NO.
MR. MALCOLM: Why not?
JOHN: I don't have it.
MR. MALCOLM: Two weeks? A month? Or within
Q '» 192,/ .->
a month?3
JOHN: Are you kidding me? Do you think I'm
going to be here talking to you a month from now?
week fromMR. MALCOLM: Oh, a week then.
JOHN: I don't intend to be talking to you a
now.
MALCOLM: Oh, by the weekend. I'll beMR.
told exactly.
trying toMR. COX: See, you're trying to, you're
get a specific response from me --
MR. MALCOLM:. So are you --
MR. COX: -- as to --
M. MALCOLM: -- response from me, too.
MR. COX: The only thing I'm trying to get
from you is if you want to come out, we're here to
welcome you with open arms.
out, I'veMR. MALCOLM: Okay.
MR. COX: If you're not interested in coming
got nothing else to discuss with you.
MR. MALCOLM: I guess you'll just have to
take me out in a body bag.
body bag.
of a sickMR. COX: DO what?
MR. MALCOLM: You'll have to take me out in
MR. COX: Hey, if you, if you have that kind
mindset, that's your prerogative.
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MR. MALCOLM: Yeah, but the government --
MR. COX: We have, we have been very patient.
We've been sitting out here for 25 days. We have said
we are not going to do anything precipitous. We have
not done anything precipitous. We will not do anything
precipitous --
. MR. MALCOLM: Well --
MR. COX: -- but this will be resolved
shortly.
MR. MALCOLM: Within a week?
MR. COX: I didn't tell you within a week.
MR. MALCOLM: No -- Okay.
MR. COX: But I, I am telling you that if you
want to come out, you come out. If you want to stay in
there, you stay in there. That's your business.
MR. mu..co1.m= Okay.
MR. COX: But it will be resolved.
MR. MALCOLM: All right. God will be --
MR. COX: And it'll be resolved without
anybody being injured.
MR. MALCOLM: Okay --
MR. COX: Okay? Do you understand that?
mm. nm..com= Yes. _
MR. COX: All right. Bye.
MR. MALCOLM: --
MR. COX: Bye. It's been nice talking to
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you.
MR. MALCOLM: Same here.
JAMIE: Yeah, John.
MR. COX: Hey.
JAMIE: This is Jamie.
MR. COX: Jamie.
JAMIE: Did you get my message through or
what happened with that? '
MR. COX: I don't know. I passed your, your
message on. I talked to you, what, two nights ago?
JAMIE: Yeah;
MR. COX: And I passed it on to have somebody
make the contact.
JAMIE: Uh-huh.
M. COX: The message is that I have right
here, right here in front of me --
JAMIE: .Uh-huh.
MR. COX: -- I don't think I've got a
response to what I sent out. I Xeroxed a bunch of
responses that came back --
JAMIE: Yeah.
MR. COX: -- but I don't recall seeing yours.
I can look through some other things -- Pardon me. I
can have some other folks look, look through some
messages that may have come in today.
JAMIE: Sure.
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1 MR. COX:' But what I did is request that
2 someone make the contact that you asked me to do.
3 JAMIE: Oh, okay.
4 MR. COX: You know, so if there was a, a
5 reply -- I
6 JAMIE: Uh-huh.
7 MR. COX: ~- I'm not privy to it.
8 JAMIE: Well, if - replies, it's just, you
9 know -- I
10 MR. COX: Hey, if there was, I --
11 JAMIE: -- let, let somebody here know when
12 you talk to Steve or somebody.
13 MR. COX: If there was, I would, believe me.
14 JAMIE: Okay. No problem.
15 MR. COX: But let me ask you something.
16 JAMIE: Sure.
17 MR. COX: Do you intend to be one of those 10
18 people that are coming out tomorrow morning? If you
19 do, if you've got any questions, be happy to answer
20 them. 4
21 JAMIE: Yeah.
22 MR. COX: But we expect 10 people coming out
23 of there tomorrow morning and I'd love to, love to have
24 you be one of them.
25 ' JQMIE: Umhum.
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MR. COX: And if you have any questions about 92
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it, I'll be happy to answer them.
JAMIE: Yeah. Well, I'm not really --
MR. COX: You sound rather insecure.
JAMIE: What do you mean?
MR. COX: Like I'm stroking you or something
like that. I'm just being -- I'm being honest with
you.
JAMIE: No, well, that's the first thing I've
heard of it. I mean, I haven't been around here, so I
don't know what's going on.
MR. COX: Well, we have said that we expect
to see 10 people out of there tomorrow morning and we
expect to see 10 people out of there tomorrow morning.
JAMIE: Well, if that's what you expect, then
I guess --
MR. COX: And we'd, we'd like to have you in
that number.
JAMIE: Yeah. Well, I'm not looking forward
to going out and getting harangued by the, by the
system, you know. Especially when you haven't done
anything --
MR. COX: What do you mean, harangued by the
system?
JAMIE: Xeah, well, you know, all the
inconsistencies within the FBI's part and, you know,
people talking and statements being made that ain't
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true.
M. COX: Hey, hey, listen --
§AMIE: I mean, I'm not --
MR. COX: -- to me, listen to me. Somebody's
either telling you something or, or somebody's blowing
smoke in your ear about something. If you want, if you
want to come out and make a statement, that's your
prerogative. 1
JAMIE: No, I don't want to make a statement.
MR. COX: If you want to sit in there and,
and play this deaf, dumb and blind, that's your
prerogative also.
JAMIE: Yeah.
MR. COX: As long as you know you're staying
in there of your own free will and you have no desire
to leave, that's your business, okay?
JAMIE: Yeah, definitely.
MR. COX: It's your business. I know that
you're going to be leaving shortly.
JAMIE: Um-hum.
MR. COX: Because I know you will.
JAMIE: Yeah, sure.
MR. COX: I mean, we're not playing this game
games witof, of talking about other issues. We're not playing
h people. We're basically saying 10 people
ouwill be t of there tomorrow morning.
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something
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JAMIE: Yeah.
M. COX: Or something will happen.
JAMIE: Okay.
MR. COX: We're not threatening you.
JAMIE: That sounds like a threat to me.
MR. COX: No, it's not a threat. It's
will happen.
JAMIE: Well, I'm sure there will --
will happen.
MR. COX: And nobody's, nobody's going to get
JAMIE: Uh-hum.
MR. COX: But if you want to live in that
squalor that you're living in instead of coming out
and, and facing something like a man, that's your
business.
man, like
if you've
fear. If
somethingJAMIE: Yeah.
MR. COX: You want to face the system like a
you were raised and you were brought up, hey,
done nothing wrong you've got nothing to
you've done something, if you've done
wrong, you've got to pay the piper, right?
JAMIE: Right.
MR. COX: Hey, that's life.
JAMIE: That's the judicial system.
M. COX: That's life, you know.
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JAMIE: Yeah.
MR. COX: And that pertains to everybody.
JAMIE: Uh-huh.
MR. COX: Everybody. So, you know, your --
you've got your conscience. You're your own man, you_
know, you make your decision.
JAMIE: Yeah.
MR. COX: Don't let somebody else make a
decision for you.
JAMIE: Yeah.
MR. COX: Don't let me make a decision for
you, don't let David, don't let anybody in there make a
decision for you. You're your own man.
JAMIE: Right.
MR. cox: Okay? I
JAMIE: Yeah.
MR. COX: And I don't want to sit out here,
and I will not sit out here to beg you to do something.
JAMIE: Well, I understand your part and, you
know, you've got to do, you've got to do, and you've
got to, you know, say what you've got to say and --
MR. COX: Hey. I
' JAMIE: I'm not going to, I'm not going to
bombard you --
MR. COX: I'll tell you --
JAMIE: I'm not going to bombard you with my,
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1 you know, speeches or whatever, you know. I've got to
2 do what I've got to do and you've got to do what you've
3 got to do.
4 um. cox: That's it. That's it.
5 JAMIE: So, I mean, we'll leave it at that.
6 But, you know, I would, you know, I would appreciate a
7 response if something does come through. Okay, John?
8 MR. COX: You've got it.
9 JAMIE: All right.
10 MR. COX: You've got it.
11 MR. LITTLE:_ John?
12 MR. COX: Yes.
13 MR. LITTLE: Hi. This is Jeff Little. DoK 14 you -- I think a few days ago you had a message for me?
15 MR. COX: I do. Somebody keeps --
16 MR. LITTLE: I think I talked to you once
17 before, huh? a
18 MR. COX: Hang on. Hang on. I'll find it.
19 Be patient with me.
20 MR. LITTLE: No problem.
21 MR. COX: I've got to go through a list, and
22 I know where it is on the list. I've just got to find
23 the right page. _Okay. Now, Lonnie Little --
24 MR. LITTLE: Uh-huh. Is this the second time
25 he called?
0 _' MR. COX: No. I just have a list of people
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that called and I thought I told you he called before.
MR.
somebody --
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.
MR.LITTLE: Yeah, I think you did, but then
COX: Kalamazoo, Michigan.
LITTLE: Yeah.
COX: Somebody may have been repetitive.
LITTLE: Could be.
COX: That's the message I had, was that,
that Lonnie had called, and somebody may have just not
scratched off
MR.
Or no?
MR.that, that you'd been advised.
LITTLE: ~Did anybody ever call him back?
COX: I presume they called him back and
told him you were healthy.
MR.
MR.
know, I can't
MR.
Thanks.
M.
MR.
MR.
All I have is
MR.
MR.
MR.LITTLE: Okay.
COX: You know? I, I can't tell you, you
promise that they did.
LITTLE: All right. Okay, no problem.
COX: Hey, hang on just a second.
LITTLE: Yeah?
COX: _Give me -- I've got Lonnie Little.
Kalamazoo, Michigan.
LITTLE: Om-hum.
COX: Have you got an address for him?
LITTLE: No, it's not - I don't think
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it's even in Kalamazoo. He's --
MR. COX: Well, I've got a phone number, 616-
665-9090.
MR. LITTLE: Right.
MR. COX: That should be a good number, huh?
MR. LITTLE: Yeah, it is.
MR. COX: Okay, 616-665-9090. Now, he's
going to be your brother? -
MR. LITTLE: No, that's my dad.
MR. COX: Your dad.
MR. LITTLE: Yeah. ~
MR. COX: Okay. Do you have an address for
Lonnie at all? '
MR. LITTLE: Well, no, I don't remember it.
It's been a long time. I ain't been home in ages and
he's moved. I
MR. COX: What about your mom? O
MR. LITTLE: Lives with her -- I mean him.
MR. COX: Have you got any brothers or
sisters or anything that you'd want us to contact?
MR. LITTLE: No.
'MR. COX: Okay. Well, listen, it's a simple
solution. You know it, I know it.
MR. LITTLE: Right.
MR. COX: You want to talk to people --
um. LITTLE: Right.
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MR. COX: -- truck on
MR. LITTLE: Okay.
MR. COX: As I told S14
down the road, huh?
teven, we expect 10
people out of there tomorrow morning and I'd like to
see you in that number.
MR.
MR.
MR. LITTLE: Okay, ho
MR. JONES: Hello?
MR. COX: Hello.LITTLE: Okay. Thanks, John.
COX: You're welcome.
ld on a second.
MR. JONES: This is David Jones.
MR. COX: David Jones
MR.
MR. COX: How's, how
MR. JONES: Oh, it's
MR. COX: Huh? Okay?
M. JONES: Yeah.
MR. COX: Can you sit
MR. JONES: Yes.
MR. COX: GOC those t
out here, huh?
MR. JONES: Yes, sir. 92? This is John.
JONES: Hello, John.
s the buns healing up?
okay.
down now?
hree youngsters of yours
MR. COX: Kevin and Mark and I guess Heather
was the last of the, the, the children to come out,
huh?
MR. JONES: Something like that.
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MR. COX: Yeah, I think she was. Think she
was. What can I do for you? Hmmm?
MR. JONES: No verbal response.!
MR. COX: David?
MR. JONES: Yes.
MR. COX: You there? You going to be one of
those 10 people coming out tomorrow morning? You want
to be reunited with your children?
MR. JONES: Reunited with my children?
MR. COX: Yeah. You sound like I just woke
you up or something. H '
MR. JONES: No.
MR. COX: Huh?
MR. JONES: It's just I've been through a lot
of situations lifetime. in my
COX: Yeah. And this hasn't been a very
has it?MR.
pleasant one,
MR. JONES: That's right.
MR. COX: No, it hasn't been pleasant for
anyone, has it?
MR. JONES: That: right.
MR. COX: No. Do you want to come out and be
reunited with those kids? We can make the
arrangements. As I told -- I've told Steven and I've
told David, I've told everybody that I've talked to, as
has everybody else out here that's talked to people in92
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there, all you've got to do is walk out the front door,
come down the road, somebody'll meet you. I don't care
if you want to do it at 2 in the morning, but we expect
10 people out of there tomorrow morning and I'd love to
have you in the number. L
And if you want to be reunited with your
children, we can make those arrangements. The first
thing I'm going to do with you, I would, I would feel
it's safe to say, and maybe you'd be reunited someplace
else, is we're going to get you to a hospital. That's
the first thing, first place you're going. And I'll be
very frank with you. We treat you the same way we
would treat Vicky when she came out, when she and
what's her name, Annette, came out --
MR. JONES: Yeah.
MR. COX: -- that evening. Isn't Annette one
of the nurses?
M. JONES: I don't know.
MR. COX: Well, when they came out, Vicky had '
some medical problems. We had a doctor meet them in
one of the Bradley vehicles. We have one that's set up
like a, like an.ambulance.
MR. JONES: Yeah.
MR. COX: Met them, she was taken to the
hospital, and she's probably still in the hospital
because she had a, a pre-existing heart problem and she
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was dehydrated and she had some other problems. So
because of the problem that you have, you'd be rendered
the same service. You'd be taken for some medical
treatment first. And whether you'd be reunited with
your youngsters over at the hospital or you'd be
reunited with them at, you know, at a later time, but I
will assure you that you'll get to see them. Okay?
MR. JONES: Yeah.
M. COX: Are there any assurances that I can
give you or anything I can tell you to reassure you or
any questions you might have? Anything else?
MR. JONES: If I want to go, I'll go. If I
want to stay, I'll stay. And any promise anybody makes
me doesn't mean nothing to me, you know.
MR. COX: Any what?
MR. JONES: Any promise that anybody's going
to make me isn't going to change what I want to do, you
know? I
MR. COX: Well, what did you want to talk to
me about then?
MR. JONES: David or Steve was saying
something about you wanted 10 people to talk to or
something, so I just --
MR. COX: I don't want to have 10 people to
talk to. I just -- I told him that we expect 10 people
to be out of there tomorrow morning.
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MR. JONES: Oh, okay.
MR. COX: Hey.
MR. JONES: All right.
MR. COX: Enjoyed talking to you, though.
MR. JONES: Yes, sir.
MR. COX: Hope things are healing up.
MR. JONES: Yeah.
MR. COX: And I hope to see you tomorrow.
MR. JONES: Yeah.
MR. COX: Think about it.
MR. JONES: Yeah.
MR. COX: Nobody's lying to you, nobody's
stroking you. Got no reason to do it, believe me, my
friend. I'd be just as happy if this is all over with
and everybody goes home.
MR. JONES: Yeah.
MR. COX: I think you would, too, huh?
MR. JONES: Yeah. Again --
MR. COX: Wish it'd be, wish it'd be over
with, too, don't you?
M. JONES: I'd go through it, I'd go through
it again. . J
MR. COX: Well, it'll all work out. Give it,
give it a lot of thought, give it a lot of thought.
But we expect 10 people out of there in the morning.
Like to have you in that number.
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MR. JONES: Yeah.
MR. cox: Okay?
MR. JONES: Yeah.
M. COX: Anybody else there? l
MR. JONES: I see, see a few people around in
the dark, yeah.
MR. COX: I'll talk to -- Well, I'll talk to
them in a little bit. '
MR. JONES: In a little bit?
MR. COX: Is Steve there?
MR. JONES: ,I can hear his voice. I can't
see him.
MR. COX: Well, raise your voice a little bit
and say Steve.
MR. JONES: Steve. Phone.
lsapl
M. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
MR. COX: Hey.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, how, how'd it go?
Anything or -e '
MR. COX: Well, I don't know. I don't know.
I think that the last young fellow there was -- he's
just kind of wandering, I guess.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean the last guy you
just talked to?
MR. COX: Dave, yeah.
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MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Well, what do you
think -- .
I MR. COX: Just talks like he's very confused.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So you think I should talk to
him, huh?
MR. COX: Yeah. He seems very confused.
Probably wouldn't hurt.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
MR. COX: Listen --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
MR. COX: -- let me call back there in about
15. 20 minutes, huh?
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right, sure.
MR. COX: Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
MR. COX: You take care.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Bye.
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TONY: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER: John?
TONY: This is Tony. -
MR. SCHNEIDER: _Tony. How you doing, Tony?
TONY: Good. How you doing, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Not tOO bad.
TONY: Good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Not bad. The reason I was
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calling back is that John said he was going to call me
in about 15, 20, and it's more than a half hour later,
so'I thought I'd call to see what, what's happening.
TONY: He's over in a meeting now.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, he is?
TONY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Nell, I was telling
Dick earlier in the day and John, I mean, I have
averaged about two hours of sleep a night and, boy, I
tell you, when I talked to Dick today, I laid down just
before I got on the phone with him and I was about
ready to pass out for quite a while. And I heard the
phone ring. It took me a while to get here. So --
TONY: So how's it going?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I don't know. I'm -- I
was telling them I'm just so worn out. I'm just
mentally, physically, almost like broke down. I'm
totally worn out.
TONY: Well, you know, as we know -- you
know, as you know, what we're trying to do is just get
this resolved and, you know, Steve, it's real important
that, you know, looking at, at it the way we see it
here, I think it's very, very important that you talk
to these people who, who are ready to come out and get
them to come out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
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TONY: You know, you talked to a number, you
know, you recruited a number of those people to go in
and, you know, in reality, there's a certain amount of
responsibility there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's why I've stayed
here as long as I have.
TONY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Otherwise, for myself, I'd
have come out, but the responsibility is that, you
know, I'm the one that talked to them originally.
TONY: You know, I think we're at the point
now, Steve; that we want you to talk to them and get
them to come out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, that's --
TONY: And if you, if you don't --¢If they're
unresponsive to you, then so be it. That's the way it
is. There's only so much you can do, and if it gets to
that point, Steve, I think that maybe you're going to
have to look at yourself and say what can I do? If, if
maybe myself coming out will help show these people
that it's not that bad out there, that things are going
as we told them --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I've been doing that.
TONY: -- then perhaps it's --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I've considered that.
TONY: Well, you know, I think it's a real
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possibility, a real good prospect, because if you come
out here and we can show you exactly what it is and you
can call back in there and tell them yes, it is true
what they are saying, because it's going to be true,
it's going to be true for all of them, and if that's
the case and you can show it, you can be very Q
instrumental in getting this thing resolved.
MR. SCHNEIDER: See, the problem I'm working
with still is, you know, like with Judy and then her
connection and the way she's viewing this whole thing
with Mayanah and --
TONY: I, I understand.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's been a real problem.
TONY: What I would like you to do, of
course, is get Judy and Mayanah and come out. What
happens if you go to Judy and she says absolutely not?
What's your next step?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, see, that's what's been
happening. That's why I'm having difficulty right now.
And the reason being is she's not trusting that --
She's seeing that the child's going to be taken away
and --
TONY: That's --
m. scimsznsa: mm?
TONY: That's not a realistic probability,
Steve. The realistic, more realistic, probability is
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that when she comes out, things are going to be worked
out here. Obviously, we have to take it one step at a
time. I can't say --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, maybe --
TONY: You know, I can't come to you and say
yes, you come out and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: -- everything's -- you just walk out
of here and you can walk about your way. No, that's
not going to be true.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, maybe, you know, like
tomorrow when she's awake, maybe I could have her talk
to one of you again and try to help her understand as
best as possible.
TONY: Well, I think it's important that you
talk to her. We need -- I'll tell you what we need you
to do. We need you to have David -- you and David get
together and identify 10 people to come out tomorrow.
M. SCHNEIDER: Well, hopefully, hopefully --
TONY: That's extremely important.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I think hopefully
tomorrow he's going to be okay because he's apparently
passed out all this time.
TONY: Well, you have to look at that, too,
Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
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1 TONY: You know, you've been doing a lot of
2 work here and he's up there, you know, he's up there
3 sleeping or taking it easy. I'm sure you're as tired
4 as he is, but you've been doing everything here.
S You've been doing -- the one that's doing the talking,
6 trying to get everybody out. And what I'm questioning
7 is who's really trying to get this resolved? You know,
8 *1 don't think that David's as interested in getting
9 this resolved as you are. I think you are wanting to
10 get this done.
11 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he's got a different
12 view, of course. .
13 TONY: Well, God very well might have, and --
14 MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, God doesn't talk to
15 me. He says he talks to him, so, you know, I mean, and
16 the only proof for me is that he's showed the Bible.
17 But, on the other hand, you know, it was even going --
18 David himself wanted to get a number of individuals
19 out. I can't -- I'm losing track of time, but it
20 was --
21h TONY: Well, the point is he has not gotten
22 them out, though.
23 A M. SCHNEIDER: Livingston came out. What
24 day was it? Tuesday, wasn't it? Tuesday morning?
25 TONY: Yeah, something like that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:' Yeah. And we had talked
f
t
{
-
.4 . N ,_!
- 26
sometime with Yvette and his mother, and he was talking
about a number of other individuals. Then, all of a
sudden, he got mad because of this whole thing with
Livingston.
TONY: Well, that was Livingston's problem,
that was not ours. We asked him if he would like to
come in.
M. SCHNEIDER: That's weird. That's so
weird.
TONY: He refused to do it cause -- Well, it
might be weird, but that was the way he was when he
came out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It made it hard for me
because --
TONY: Nell --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I was actually going to
play on his calling back.
TONY: Well, okay, look at, look at this,
Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: Obviously, we can't rely on that
because he's not going to cooperate. What's the next
best step? How about you coming out?
MR. SCHNEIDER: What did he, what did he want
to do when you guys were talking to him?
TONY: He didn't want to do anything. He
O O
K; E!*~ ~ 27
didn't want to do anything. We can't control about
what Livingston did, okay?
- MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I know. I just --
TONY: He is -- Steve, you have to
understand, we told you before that we are not going
to, we are not going to make anybody do anything out
here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, of course --
TONY: And we're going to stand by that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'd expect that. I never
have asked you guys to ever force anybody to call.
TONY: Good. And we wouldn't do that. You
know, John told you here earlier that -- exactly what
would happen. John told you that. John's going to
stand by his word. I'm going to stand by my word.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I've never --
TONY: If --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, I've never -- In the
first place, you don't need to tell me that because I
wouldn't --.This is America. I, I myself have the
greatest respect for anybody's choices to do with
anything when it comes to what they feel they need to
do for life or death or whatever, you know, they need
to do. I don't -- I respect you for your decisions in
regards to whatever and --
TONY: And we're going to stand by that.
K
r
I
n
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1 >92._
- 28
What I'm saying is here we need to get something going
as far as getting 10 people out. We need some, some
good faith from your side in there, and all we're
asking at this point, we need at least a minimum of 10
people, we need the names of 10 people who are going to
come out tomorrow. And we want that done so that we
can get them out tomorrow. We want them to clean up
tonight, wash your hair, be ready to come out.
So tomorrow, when we get back into this
tomorrow morning, we have a number of people that are
going to come out. Not tomorrow we call and say well,
we're not sure. We need definitely some names, we need
who's going to come out, and we want to get this going.
Okay? If -- We need your help on this. I want you to
work on this. There are people in there that would
come out, I am absolutely certain, if you sit and talk
to them.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that was what I was
trying to tell John. My credibility was extremely
damaged with that.
TONY: Look, look, Steve, you -- I remember
you saying one time that you were tired of this and
that you want to come out. You said if I could I would
come out. There is no, nothing in the world stopping
you from coming out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, there is.
O O
L; >. 29
TONY: There's not.
MR. SCHNEIDER: There's Judy and Mayanah and
there's --
TONY: There's not. It's your choice, Steve.
It is your choice whether you want to come out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but how are you going
to leave someone behind like --
TONY: Because you know how you're going to
leave them behind?
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- clearly.
TONY: You're not leaving behind. By you
coming out and you bringing some people with you and
showing them out here yourself -- H
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
TONY: Just a minute, let me finish. --
you're taking the lead on this and you're saying I will
go out and find out, I will see what it is out there.
I will be the, the goat that's going out there, to come
out and find out exactly what's going on out there and
I will let you know. when you come out here, I will
absolutely guarantee you that when you call back to
tell them about how you're being treated, about how the
process is going, those people who are reluctant will
come out.
You have to lead by example and you know
that. That's important. You have to lead. Ind you --
Q,
V! .30
I think you can lead these people out of there. You
can walk out of there with them, you can bring some out
with you if they're ready to go with you now, and, and
I think it's very important that you show by your
leadership yourself. I know you want to come out of
there. You have said so. You are tired of this going
on and you're the one that can make this happen.- I
think it's really important, Steve, that you take a
leadership role to this effect. I don't think Dave's
going to do this. David's not going to do that. He is
upstairs sleeping and unconcerned, so to speak, at this
point, where you're not.
And I honestly think that you can do this.
And I want you to do this. Everybody out here is, is
hoping that you're going to take this leadership role
and bring these people out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, if I came out, if I
came out, Tony, it would be -- I know for a fact it'd
be only me on my own, seriously. I know this for a
fact because --
TONY: That's fine. Steven.
MR.-SCHEIDER: VI went and talked to these
people already.
TONY: Steven.
MR . SQINEIDER: Yes?
TONY: You said you wanted to end this thing
I
92
L.k_: . j >
- 31
and get them to come out. You -- It would be nice that
if you could, if you could get Mayanah and Judy by the
hand and say let's go, we are --
MR. SCHNEIDER: --
TONY: Let me finish. I'm saying it would be
nice if that could happen. And you walked out of there
and several people followed you. If it didn't work
that way, the next best way that you can get these
people out of there, which I think you know is the
right solution, is for you to walk out of there and say
I will be the one that will find out what's going on
there and I will let you know. And when you come out,
I absolutely guarantee you're going to have access to
anything you want out here to help get this resolved.
You have our guarantee on this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So with Judy, what do you
think it is about -- what do you think, on average,
from your experience, what do you think might happen?
TONY: With what?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Myself with Judy, I mean,
being -- using her as a material witness. How long
would she be held? I mean, how long would it be before
she gets Mayanah? You know, any ideas?
TONY: She, she wouldn't -- As far as the --
I'm sure, like in anybody else's case, you're going to
go through the procedures, which are, you know, they
Q I
4; _.>. '4 32
would come out, they would go to the Bradley. We would
take them in, make certain that everybody's okay. If
they need medical treatment, we would take them and get
them the medical treatment. We would then take them
down to the facility, just to process them through,
which is normal procedure. They would have -- In i
Judy's case -- she would definitely go to the hospital
first of all. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: What about Mayanah?
TONY: Definitely, because of her --
MR. SCHNEIDE§: She'd probably take Mayanah
with her when she -- '
TONY: Absolutely. She would be allowed to
take Mayanah with her to the hospital and she would be
able to keep her there while she's getting treated.
And then she'll go through the -- When that's all taken
care of, when she's allowed to leave the hospital,
because they may keep her there for a little bit. I
don't know if infection's set in or not, but that's
very important.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. _
TONY: You know, as long as it's been,
there's a real possibility of infection. Bo, of
course, she might have to spend more time in the
hospital there. If, in fact, she has to spend some
time in the hospital, the magistrate himself would come
O - O _
_; i_.>
. 33
up to the hospital.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Really? Gee.
TONY: They're not going to wait for all
this, and they can get at least the process going --
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. y
TONY: -- and have the process going to get
her through, through it and set a bond, so that she
doesn't have to go to the hospital and then go through
a long period of time thereafter and then hope for a
bond to get set. Once they set up a bond on her, you
know, she can make that bond or get out. That's,
that's entirely up to the system. I can't, I can't
tell you at that point because I don't know. We have
to wait till that time comes. But we are going to do
everything that's in our possibility to see that that
happens, because our concern is for everybody's well
being right now.
And we want this -- everything to take the,
the proper perspective. We want everything to go down
as it's supposed to happen, okay? We're not going to
treat anybody any different. We're going to give them
the medical assistance that they need, we're going to
take and get them proper legal counseling that they
need and take them through the legal process. And
we're going to be there for that. But it's important
that we get this going because we can't continue going
ck on!.4 _ _
34
1 on like this. The longer it goes, the longer it goes,
2 the, the harder it takes. I mean, this thing could
3 have been done with a week, two weeks ago, and some of
4 them could have been through the system and already out
5 on bond. Okay?
6 We want and the state wants to keep the
7 children with the natural parents. That's really
8 important. I think that's something that, that Judy
9 should be aware of. And when they're talking about the
10 parents per se, especially the mother. The mother is
11 probably most influential on the child and we want to
12 keep it -- They don't want to break up the child from
13 the mother. The state doesn't want to do that, the
14 federal government doesn't want to do that.
15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, of course, that's a
16 major concern because Judy and I have raised -- Judy
17 especially has spent so much time --
18 TONY: Absolutely.
19 MR. SCHNEIDER: The way she can communicate
20 is -- I mean, it's awesome, her level of
21 intelligence --
22 TONY: Sure.
23 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and her ability to
24 communicate, and she has spent a lot of time with her
25 in teaching her. And it's, you know, it's her life,
for sure.
.,_. _ . -- _
k1
2
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L14
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r'
92.
Q_. . ._.__-_.._.__.-2..-___._-._<-__._. ¢_. .___ -.__ ..- _
92_' q!
important
of course
all the i35
TONY: Right. And I think, you know, that's
to you. It's very important to you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it is. But, you know,
, I'm -- but I'm looking at, you know, I mean,
ssues, I'm looking at other people involved in
this. And, of course --
COLIIBS .
people ar
in thereTONY: Steve, I will tell you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: - that's immediate, of
That's immediate.
TONY: I will tell you more than that. Those
e looking for some leadership. Those people
are looking for something. I am certain that
those people in there are not happy with what's
happening
outwardly
it was no
up to som
looking fhere. You know, they may not say it
, but it -- deep inside they probably wished
t -- this was not happening.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that I'm sure of.
TONY: Absolutely.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure, that's --
TONY: And they, they need, they are looking
ebody for some leadership here. They are
or that
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, David.
TONY: Pardon me?
MR. SCHEIDER: David. It's David.
TONY: The leadership -- David's not doing
oQ-_ _ ._._ _ . . --i-~--Q ab.!-._._ _.
1.: 9,,
36
' 1 anything to resolve this, Steve.
k 2 A MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, the whole thing,
3 though -- But, see, what I'm trying to tell you, Tony,
4 is they came here not for me, but because they met him,
5 they heard what he had to say. And that's why I asked
6 a number of them just lately what about this, what
7 about that.
8 TONY: Okay. Let me back -- take a step back
9 here.
10 MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. All right.
11 TONY: What about the people that you
12 recruited to bring in there? Okay?
_ 13 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's the ones I've
L 14 been - I told John I was trying to talk with.
15 TONY: Sure.
16 MR. SCHNEIDER: And that's why --
17 TONY: Well --
18 MR. SCHEIDER: -- I thought maybe --
19 TONY: But, but what I'm saying is they
20 look -- they may look to David for guidance, but in, in
21 reality, too, are they not looking towards you for some
22 guidance, because -- A
23 MR. SCHNEIDER: Not at all, no. No.
24 TONY: Well, I -- Well, I don't, I don't buy
25 that because I think you're important in this, Steven.
f MR. SCHNEIDER: It's -- well, it: not a
. I
92_f _!
. 37
normal situation, Tony. It really isn't. It's one of
these things where there's a man that is so out of my
league when it comes to his ability to articulate
what's in that book, lay together a picture. I mean, I
went with him to Jerusalem where he --
TONY: Well, that's fine. You know, I can't
go into those issues.
MR. SCHNEIDER: oh, no, 1 just wanted to say
meaning -- Okay, just to give you an example -- I'm not
going to get into the religious aspect.
TONY: Okay, good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I just wanted to say this,
though. When I went with him to Israel, to Jerusalem,
he took on some rabbis. I'm not_talking about the
religious aspect, but in -- The topic was logic and the
way he blew them away, I mean, I was sitting there
being entertained. So --
TONY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- meaning this now. So when
he came back here, of course, and these people have
gotten to hear him and they've seen what he's done,
they walk -- they look at their Bibles. Is it still
there? See, that's what I'm dealing with, too, Tony.
That's what I'm trying to say.
TONY: Yes, but we were aware of the fact --
we're aware of the fact of what -- that he can discuss
. ...._._. .... _...-_.i__~.-.._..._... ._._ -
Q 0-!
' 38
what's in the book. There's no question in our mind
that he is very knowledgeable about what's in the book.
What we are concerned about is how is he going to
continue to do this under these conditions? He has no
access -- You have maybe how many people left in there?
You said we have 30 some out, you've got twice as many
in there. You say you've got maybe 60 or three times?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I said about -- No, no, I
said about three times.
TONY: Three times. Let's say 90 other
people or so, okay? '= -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Probably about --
TONY: So he's in there --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think there might even be
120, maybe 30. .
TONY: Okay. So what he's doing basically is
getting his message to 120, 130 people. If he is
concerned about the -- what he's talking about, he is
not going to get the message to anybody else cause he
has no contact with anybody else. But coming out he
has that contact because he has been offered the
opportunity to go on CBN. That's been given to him.
He has the opportunity to have media contact. The
people who have come out already have already had
contact with the media. Okay?
They are getting their story out. And
u
- Q . _ _ ___.___.. .___-_~_... ._.._._ . .-..
'<-- '
- 3 9
l anybody else come out has -- will have that
2 opportunity. You will have that opportunity. David
3 will have that opportunity.
4 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, see, the only thing I'm
S really interested in, Tony, is, you know, is, of
6 course, justice and, and it works out --
7 TONY: Justice will prevail, Steven.
a MR. SCHNEIDER: won, you know, I mean,
9 through the legal process --
10 TONY: Yes.
11 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that one is definitely
12 being able -- be able to be heard in regards to what
13 all happened.
14 TONY: Steven, the only way, the only way two
15 sides of any story can be brought out is if both sides
16 talk. Okay? Right now one side has spoken.
1'7 MR. scmnzxnsa: Tony --
18 TONY: You have, you have that opportunity
19 and you will be given that opportunity to present your
20 side of the story.
21 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll tell you what I wish.
22 I'll, I'll tell you what I wish. I wish you would have
23 been here with me that Sunday when it happened. Then
24 I'd be very -- '
25 TONY: No, I'm not going to go -- I
understand, but I'm not going to go back into the past.
KOk = >Y ~ 40
I can't do that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know.
I TONY: What I, what I want to concentrate on,
Steve, is what is happening tomorrow --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, yes.
TONY: -- and in the future.
' M. SCHNEIDER: Tony, but you don't
understand one of the biggest fears --
TONY: I do. 4
MR. SCHNEIDER: One of the biggest fears is
that spokesperson always getting on there, having the
ability to say what he does and with no repercussions
from anybody.
TONY: Then come out and you can have that
opportunity.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm not going to -- They're
going to incarcerate me, not him, Tony. Come on.
TONY: Steve, I --
MR. SCHEIDER: How did --
TONY: -- I can't go into -- I know what
you're saying, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Don't you understand, though,
Tony? Don't you understand?
TONY: Let's, let's get --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Help me out with that. What
would you -- I mean, seriously.
0- Q92_" __
_ - 41
TONY: No, I'm not going to go into that
issue because that is a dead issue right now. There
is, there is nothing that I can discuss on that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You as a human -- No, but you
as a human -- Then put somebody on the phone that might
have some understanding.
TONY: Well, it's -- No one's going to
discuss that issue. We're not going to discuss that
issue. We, we can't. What we need to discuss from
this, this, Steve, from this point on is where we're
going from here. Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: See, it's like --
TONY: It's not that we're not trying to be
understanding.
M. SCHNEIDER: No, I know, but it's
something like a Catch-22 because, you know, the very
ones -- If it wasn't for them being out there, let's
say --
TONY: I can't -- You're right, but I can't
go back into that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: There'd be no problem
people -- I mean there would be none. One of the
biggest things --
TONY: What, what is your reluctancy right
now, Steve, of coming out? What is your reluctancy?
Not, not for anybody else in there --
Q92- '0,, 0;,!
42
1 M. SCHNEIDER: Well, I'll tell you the
2 truth.
3 TONY: -- strictly your reluctancy.
4 MR. SCHNEIDER: There's, there's two of them.
5 Number one, I am -- I came here myself because I was _
6, convicted by what David shown and
7 to gainsay what he has. And I've
8 world-wide. Number two, the next
9 happened that Sunday, and I'm not
10 because --
11 TONY: Okay.
12
13
14
15
16
17
'»
18 along those lines. Okay?
19
20
21
22 TONY: NO. I '
23
24
25I've never been able
gone to scholars
thing is what
getting into it
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Just the point being
for me I'm reluctant because I don't trust those guys
because what I'm hearing them saying on the --
TONY: You are not going to be dealing with
those guys. You're going to be dealing with the Texas
Rangers, with the FBI, with the federal government,
MR. SCHEIDER: But John and Byron told me
that the ATP will be in on the investigation of the
buildings, they're involved with the transportation.
MR. SCHNEIDER: With asking questions.
They're going to be involved all the way through.
TONY: They will not. They will not.
Steven, do you know how the judicial process --
"! : ".L J
43
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'll help because if
you -- .
. TONY: Steven, if I was involved in
something, in some type of activity, and I am a
participant in it, okay? Right, wrong, or indifferent,
if I was a participant, I could not be involved in the
investigation. Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I like -- That makes
sense to me, Tony. I want to guarantee that that'll be
true if I come out -- "
TONY: You have that guarantee. V
um. SCHNEIDER: -- with this ATP, that
they're not going to be.
TONY: They are not going to be involved in
that investigation. We've, we've stressed that time
and time.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You're the first one -- I can
honestly say you're the first one that's ever told me
that.
TONY: They are not being -- You've been told
that before.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no, no. Because I --
TONY: John explained that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, he hasn't.
TONY: Steven, I was here and John explained
that, that they would not.
. ._ .._ __ Q ._,. _ .--.._._._i-...._--_... _._ ._..-. _-__
>
. 4 4
MR. SCHNEIDER: One of the guys said that the
ATE would be involved, and it even came out in either
the press release. I'm positive it did, seriously. We
took notes. Seriously, Tony.
TONY: And what did he say?
M. SCHNEIDER: It was spoken of that they
would be involved in that investigation, along with the
Texas Rangers.
TONY: No. Steven, the judicial process
doesn't work that way. _
M. SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm glad to hear that.
TONY: Well, I'm telling you that.
MR. scnnnxnsa: All right.
TONY: Now, does that ease your mind there?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it helps a lot.
TONY: Well, good. Now, now we can get on to
coming out, because now you are convinced. I hope
you're convinced.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, not totally, but I
might --
TONY: Steve -- '
MR. SCHEIDER: -- want to push you as far as
to get a written'statement that I can have in my hand.
TONY: Well, we gave a written statement the
other day, Steven, and that, that was discarded.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That was in regards to the
1
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ATP, though, not in --
TONY: Pardon me?
MR. SCHNEIDER: My, my greatest, my greatest
concern has been their involvement in any aspect of
this judicial system, unless it comes to giving their
story, that's fine, in a courtroom. But when it comes
to the investigation, it bothers me that the men are
out there making -- I mean, they called the people that
were here as eyewitnesses liars and that they were
fabricating stories and so forth.
TONY: Okay.~ Well, Steven --
~ MR. SCHNEIDER: And who's to say --
TONY: -- all I can tell you, all I can tell
you right now, forgetting everything, what you've heard
before, if there was confusion to it, I can tell you
right now from this point on that the Texas Rangers is
the main investigative agency --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know they're the main.
TONY: -- that's going to be --
MR. SCHEIDER: I heard that.
TONY: That's what I'm saying. What I'm
saying, that they are the investigating agency.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but that's the point.
when I asked -- it was John or one of these guys --
they said main, also.
TONY: Well, when they said main is because
G O
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_ 46
they've requested assistance from us, for, for example,
from laboratories, things along this line. _
V MR. SCHNEIDER: That's fine. I don't mind
that.
TONY: That, that's what I'm saying. What
I'm saying main, they are the primary investigative
agency. That's, that's terms that we use to show what
agency is heading up the investigation.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I just don't like the idea
that the ATP would even have a slim --
TONY: They're not going to. They are out of
it. I don't know how I can say it anymore, Steve. The
ATP cannot --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's the first time
I've heard that.
TONY: -- be involved in the investigation
because of the fact that they were involved in the
operation. They can't be involved in the
investigation.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That makes sense to me. That
makes sense.
TONY: Okay. And that's the way it's going
to be. John explained -- Steven, I was here when John
explained that. Maybe -- Forgetting that, maybe you
just didn't understand that. I'm explaining that to
you now.
m
I
1
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C._ .._.._.____.-_..__--~ --~------Q-> '-
6 O
Li } _!
4'7
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it seemed a little
ambiguous because -- .
I TONY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- he did say, like you did
say yourself, that a main, like a --
TONY: Okay. Well, let's say -- That's our
terminology, okay? when we say --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know, I know that.
TONY: It is a primary agency.
MR. SCHEIDER: I understand.
TONY: What they're doing, the Texas Rangers
are heading up the investigation.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I understand that. And --
TONY: Okay. Then they're getting assistance
from us.
MR. SCHEIDER: I told them it didn't, didn't
bother me that the FBI would be involved.
TONY: And, and we will be. We're going to
be. We're going to be to some degree, but we are not
going to head the investigation up. The main
investigators will be the Texas Rangers. when I say
the main, they're just heading it up. That's just
terminology meanings. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. I know, I
understand.
TONY: Okay.
>_- - __ .. .- __...._ -_..._..___ _._.__ '
O I
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- 48
1 MR. SCHNEIDER: No problem.
2 TONY: Well, just so we understand where
3 we're coming, ATE is not involved in the investigation.
4 I assure you of that. Okay?
5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
6 TONY: Okay. Now, now that I've gotten you
7 through the reluctance of coming out, will you come out
8 now? !-
9 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I've still got to --
10 I've got to spend some time with Judy. I want to talk
11 to her for sure. It's a main thing, you know, I mean,
12 we --
f 13 TONY: Okay.
L 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we came here together.
15 It's been 22 years now, so it's been a long time. I
16 want to make sure that --
17 TONY: I want you, I want you to get back
18 with Judy, Mayanah, and I want you to get seven other
19 people that you can convince to come out. We need to
20 have at least a minimum of 10 people to come out
21 tomorrow.
22 MR. SCHNEIDER: ~I don't know how I'm going
23 to -- I'll tell you --
24 TONY: Listen, listen. If --
25 MR. SCHNEIDER: Tony, I don't know -- I don't
K have that ability anymore.
5
n
£
4
L, U!
' 49
TONY: If --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't. I never did, in the
first place.
TONY: If you can't get 10 people, I want
you, Judy and Mayanah to come out. _
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's the first thing
I'll do is talk to her in the morning --
TONY: That's what I want you to do.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- sometime.
TONY: And --
M. SCHNEIDER: It'll be after --
TONY: No, no, no, no, no. No, no, Steve.
You've got to get to Judy tonight and get prepared.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Tony, because of her face,
she's, she's not been feeling good all day long.
TONY: I understand. That doesn't -- We, we
will get her to -- If, if she's not been feeling good
all, all day today, you keep her up for one more night
and explain this. You bring her out tomorrow. She
will be going to a hospital tomorrow for treatment. We
will take care of her. We will take care of her for
Y° - '.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think she's been pretty
adamant up until this point in time.
TONY: I understand that. I understand that.
And what I would like you to do is go see her tonight
_ . _. .~.. ._@--___.-_.___¢._-___.._.. .
K I i
_ so
and talk to her tonight and get her to come out with
you. And you, you can explain to her just what I told
you. You can explain to her that her child will be
with her. You can explain the judicial process. You
can explain to her who's conducting the investigation
and everything's going up front. And you can convince
her that, that you and her and Mayanah coming out, and
that you can call back in to the people inside and tell
them everything's up front out here.
This is the way to go. Let us get this and
let's get our word out and let's get the story out to
the public, cause this -- that's going to be the only
way it can happen from here on. We need that to i
happen. It is important and it's just something you're
going to have to do. You need to lead those people
out, Steve. You've got to lead them out.
MR. SCNEIDER: Tony, they would never come
out with me, I guarantee it.
TONY: They may not walk out with you
tomorrow, Steven, they may not do that because -- But I
am firmly convinced from the time just listening to you
that -- Since I've been here, I am absolutely firmly
convinced that you have that power within yourself to
bring those people out. And if I'm saying bring them
out, if they don't walk out with you tomorrow, then you
have sufficient that you can sufficiently justify to
- ..._ . ...i_Q-.._.__.__..._______-_ .-__ ..._-__ ___.._|
kg
51
1 them once you get out that they will be able to follow
2 you out, maybe tomorrow night or the next day or.
3 whatever.
4 MR. SCHNEIDER: But, see --
5 TONY: But they will come out because you can
6 tell them exactly what the process is.
7 MR. SCHNEIDER: Tony, honestly, that's what
8 Livingston Pagan was all about.
9 TONY: But he did not. He -- I can't, I
10 can't discuss him because he refused to do it.
11 MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, but what I'm
12 saying -- No, but what I'm saying is what's made it
13 harder for me, I was really counting on him because of
14 his ability to communicate.
15 TONY: Eine. Fine. But he didn't do it. I
16 can't control that. I'm not going to force him,
17 Steven. I'm not going to go to him and say --
18 MR. SCHNEIDER: I know, I know that.
19 TONY: I'm not going to go to him and say
20 Steve was --
21 MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, I was blown away by
22 that because that was my ace and my one opportunity to
23 really go and, and say well, look, he's over there. I
24 want to tell -- Can I say something about -- I was
25 hoping he would actually be able to speak in behalf
of -- Instead of having someone like Kevin and Brad
. .
_ _..____ _.. -__. ._-.¢._-_.__.-__ ___..__.__
U ._ I
t; "1' I 52
talking to all these different talk shows --
TONY: well, that's, that's -- -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Like Brad doesn't even
understand his messages, and he understands it for
himself -- ,
TONY: Well, then come out and explain it to
him, Steve. Come out here and explain it to him.
M. SCHNEIDER: Nell, that's what Livingston
went to do.
TONY: Well, it's a moot point, Steven.
It's -- What the point is, the only way you're going to
be convinced is for you to hear it from their mouths
themselves and for you to explain it to them yourself,
okay? It's very important that you do this.
MR. SCHEIDER: Well, there's a few things --
TONY: Because I'm convinced you can have
this thing resolved, Steve. You can do this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Don't give me credit I
don't -- I mean, seriously, it doesn't --
TONY: Okay, let me ask you this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm serious.
TONY:* Well, what I'm getting at is you
mentioned on a number of occasions that you are tired
of this going on and you would just rather walk out of
there. You said you were willing to walk out of there,
okay?
O I
92_?- "'_!
. 53
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm just --
TONY: I want you -- If you, if you, if you
have that conviction of walking out of there, if you
have that conviction, then do it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, my --
TONY: Or, or you really don't mean what
you're saying.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No. Here's what it is. My
concern is once I get -- I'm in a jail cell that I'll
be able to do absolutely nothing --
TONY: You're wrong.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- for these people at all.
TONY: You're wrong. You know what I think
your fear is?
MR. SCHNEIDER: What's that?
TONY: I think your fear is that, that if you
leave that David fears other people will follow you.
And I think that's your fear.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Not at all, not at -- I
know -- that's not it.
TONY: Are you telling me that, are you
telling me that, that you can't leave on your own?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know I can. I can do
anything.
TONY: Then why don't you? You know, I, I
firmly believe -- I want to believe the fact, I want to
5- - -- __ » ~.--..-_.._-~-._-.._ -.__-ea.-...-.;..__92-__.._....__..- _
..92 !
54
' 1 believe the fact that you can walk out of there and get
' 2 these people. And if you don't get -- -
3 I um. SCHNEIDER: Tony --
4 TONY: If what I just got through saying is
S inaccurate, then you can help David by bringing these_
6 people out.
7 MR. SCHNEIDER: This is the point. The
8 religious conviction is so deep, how do you go against
9 that?
10 TONY: Then you don't really care -- What I'm
11 saying is you don't really believe the fact that you're
12 getting out of there. That you're saying, you're
13 saying I wish this is over, I just want to walk out off'
L 14 here.
15 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it's true. Look, you
16 and I are both spiritual beings and fleshly. And, I
17 mean, of course, we've got to feed our face and all the
18 rest, but you yourself are a spiritual person and you
19 can perceive things --
20 TONY: Okay.
21 MR. SCHNEIDER: -- okay that way. Okay, so
22 for me, I'm in the same kind of a dilemma in that
23 there's these -- the strong convictions. I see things
24 there, Tony, that's the point. On one hand, yeah, I'm
25 tired. The body's tired.
f TONY: The body's tired.
N
II
._ _ _ _______. ... - . .___ .-....___.
-_ _!
- 55
' 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: Of course it is.
2 TONY: And how many other people are tired in
3 there that, that are looking for direction, Steve?
4 Those people are looking for direction.
5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, not from me they
6 aren't.
7 TONY: I believe they ere, because they're
8 not getting it from David.
9 MR. SCHNEIDER: I was trying to tell you,
10 he's so beyond me that what they've heard, they want --
11 they go -- ~
12 TONY: Steve, I think you're just giving me
13 excuses. I mean, we've been hearing this for, for 25
' 14. days, Steve.
92 .
15 MR. SCHNEIDER: No. Livingston himself has a
16 master's degree. He was a minister over in England.
17 TONY: I'm not going to discuss Livingston
18 because he's --
19 MR. SCHNEIDER: NO, but -- No, but I'm
20 just --
21 TONY: It doesn't --
22 MR. SCHNEIDER: shook, here's how it works.
23 Now, seriously, Tony, seriously, even with his ability
24 and his master's degree, his being a minister, all
25 that, it didn't matter to them whet he did or didn't
~ do. When it came right down to it, because they came
- _ ss
here to hear David because of his ability to open that
book.
' TONY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Tony, so don't give me -- I
don't deserve it. ~
TONY: Well, okay, if you, if you don't want
me to give you the credit, I won't give you the credit.
But what I want you to do --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't have that influence.
TONY: Fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't have it. a
TONY: Fine. But what I think you do have is
the ability to take those people out of there in the
sense that if David is looking for some type of word
from the outside here that everything is okay, and if
that's true, cause it appears you're unconvinced that
everything's okay out here, if somebody needs to find
that out, the first one he would believe would be you.
And if you were to come out here and see the system and
how it's going and you can honestly call in and tell
him exactly the process of what's happening, that will
hopefully be enough influence right there to get these
people to come out so that we can get this resolved and
that we can get the investigation finished up and we
can let the legal process take its -- the role it's
going so that the people then can have access to the
92._, _!
57
press, the talk shows can go on on CBN. Everything can
be done.
' MR. SCHNEIDER: Tony, personally, I don't
even care about the CBN --
TONY: Okay. All right, then let's drop that
issue. That's fine. Q
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and the press.
TONY: That was just something -- Well, the
reason I bring that up is because this was, this was
something that was brought up before.
MR. SCHNEIDER: To tell you the truth, after
hearing this guy Craig Smith, I'd never in this world
have anything to do --
TONY : Okay .
MR. SCHEIDER: -- with him or his --
TONY: Well, then let's, let's just drop that
issue. That's a nonissue, there's no problem.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
TONY: We don't have to discuss that. But
you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I heard --
TONY: -- have that ability to bring these
people out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- even had the audacity to
call --
TONY: Okay. You know, you know what I want
'! _3 . !' se
you to do now? You know what I want you to do?
MR. SCHNEIDER: What's that?
TONY: Think very carefully what I told you
about the process out here. I want you to go talk to
Judy now. I want you to go and talk to her and then I
want you to -- Weill get back to you later or you call
back to me, one or the other, and line her up and
convince her, Steve. I
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll talk to you in the
morning, but I'm so -- I can't even --
TONY: I want to talk to you tonight, Steve.
It's -- H
MR. SCHNEIDER: In fact, I'm --
TONY: No. Steve, one more night's not going
to matter.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I, I purposely stayed up to
show courtesy and decency, to show that I'm trying to
work with you guys.
TONY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, I was going to --
TONY: I understand.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I was going to go to bed
about two, three hours ago, after talking to Dick.
TONY: Well, I think, I think --
MR. SCHNEIDER: And then John, he got on the
phone. Then he said well, Steve, let me call you back.
Q... .. . Q - - _._i ___. __. . . .--..__.._..- -
r
$»
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- 59
TONY: Something as important as this, Steve,
right now, something as important as right now --
End of Tape #164.!
T995I
!
/K
9- ',
U. s. DEPARTMENT or "ms TREASURY
auamu or ALCOHOL, TOBACCO a rmmnms
i
TAPE #165
3/25/93
9:51 P.M. - 10:38 P.M.
Tape 165!
TONY:/' 92 T
>_-'!
I want to get back with you tonight
and I want to find out exactly --
STEVE: All right. David's going to let you
1talk to someone else cause I'm going to be asleep.
TONY: Okay, what I want you to do --
STEVE: I know I am.
TONY:Okay. What I want you to do is get
three people. Let me give you a couple names here,
okay?
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY :
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY :
STEVE
TONY:Okay. go ahead.
Okay, Lisa Ferris.
She was here earlier.
Okay.
I wanted John to talk to her then.
Right.
I don't know where --
Well --
She could have turned in already.
-- we've got a female negotiator here
to talk to her, okay?
STEVE: Oh, shoot. Then, well, maybe I can -
- let's see what happens then.
TONY:Okay. Have -- get Lisa Ferris.
STEVE: All right.
TONY: Let me give you another name.92
9.» ',
STEVE : Okay .
TONY: Sherry Doyle and Julie Martinez.
Okay?
STEVE: I'm trying to see if -- you know,
what? There's hardly anybody around right now. I'm
the only one sitting here.
TONY: Well, Steve, go find them. Go find
them. It's very important; Steve, that we get this on
It really is. Hey, and, hey, do it_for me. Do it for
John.
STEVE: Who's the female negotiator?
TONY: Yeah.
STEVE: Who is she?
TONY: She's Linda.
STEVE: Okay.
TONY: Is the name. ,
STEVE: Okay, just hang on. 92
TONY: Okay?
STEVE: There's someone right here. Let me
ask them if she's seen --
TONY: Okay, just a minute. Steve. Steve.
Voices in background not discernible.!
~
STEVE: What about Lisa Ferris, is she
around?
Female voice in background not discernible.
STEVE: Really? Oh, shoot. They all, they
O I
tr Y.> 4
all turned in already.
TONY: Well, can you go get them up? p
STEVE: Well, that's why I told John, I said,
call right back, and I says they're going to
be right -- no, it was Dick. I says --
TONY: Okay.
STEVE: And then he said -- then he said John
was going to be there, so I got them to hang around
here.
TONY: Okay. Well, you know, that's
something that happened and it's still early, it's only
9 -- it's almost 10. Still early.
STEVE: I know, but, you know, a lot of
people have been staying up. They've been --
TONY: I know. Why don't you --
STEVE: Oh, man.
TONY: -- do me a favor? Go wake them up and
tell them to come, come to the phone, okay?
STEVE: I, I -- if these people can -- I'm so
shot myself, for me to go walk around hanging at some
door, knocking --
TONY: Steve, it's important that we talk to
them.
STEVE: Why, why couldn't have we don't this
earlier, Tony?
TONY: Because we've been trying -- we've
O/_ U
_ !
s
been busy here. We've been trying to get this -~
STEVE: I know. I gave the names like two,
three hours ago already.
TONY: Okay. Well, go see if they'll come to
the phone.
STEVE: For that reason.
TONY: Because I'm sure they would like to
talk to her. Go see. -
STEVE: They, they probably would. I wish
that they -- I told -- that's why I
and John earlier. I says why don'tactually asked Dick
you put on -- I
says it would not hurt. If anything, it would probably
benefit.
TONY: Okay, I'll tell you what. You know, I
can't - if they went back, I can't
that. We've been doing this for 25
hour now, okay?do anything about
days. We need an
STEVE: I know, but, Tony, that's why I've
been telling them, like when, when ~- what was her
name? Jennifer called me yesterday
TONY: Okay.
STEVE: What came -- listen, well, let me
just say what came to my mind after
thought maybe that would be the way
because I was telling John and Dick
anymore with these people. So theyhearing her, I
to go with --
I'm not effective
would have possibly
0, 0!
' e
a better chance.
TONY: Okay. N
' STEVE: They can talk about the system.
Maybe they can look at it --
TONY: Well, that's, that's what we want to
do. I'll tell you what we're going to do.
STEVE: All right.
TONY: I'm going to give you 15 minutes and
we're going to call you back, okay?
STEVE: Oh, Tony.
TONY: What time is it? It's --
STEVE: I don't know.
TONY: It's just about --
STEVE: I'm so shot. I just --
TONY: It's about 5 to 10. I will call you
back about 10 after 10.
STEVE: Man. »
TONY: I know, but it's important we get this
going. y
STEVE: Well, just a minute. Let me try to
get somebody else.
TONY: All right, that's --
STEVE: Just hold on a minute.
TONY: And, Steve --
STEVE: Yes.
TONY: -- I need you to go talk to Judy now.
Q O
92_. ,> .,
I need you to do that.
STEVE: She's not -- she's already so tired.
she didn't feel good.
TONY: Then get her up. It's important. Go
talk to her.
STEVE TO OTHERS: Is there anybody that might
-- they've got a female negotiator and she's willing to
talk with a couple women. If you want to talk to her -
- is there anybody else here that might get -- because
I am shot, absolutely shot. Huh? I don't know. Do
you want to? Well, who else -- who's up right now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER IN BACKGROUND:
Indiscernible!.
STEVE TO OTHERS: Oh, mercy. Okay, do me a
favor, because he's going to want to call back in maybe
10, 15 minutes. I'm just so -- My voice is gone and
I've got a headache and I'm shot. Maybe if you could
just answer the phone when he calls back -- Tony?
TONY: Yeah.
STEVE: Yeah, she's - I've got somebody here
that's going to go try to find them --
TONY: Okay.
STEVE: -- and bring them to the phone. But
1, 1 -- - '
TONY: That's fine.
STEVE: Oh, I tell you, I've got one of those
.1
kind of -- it's not a migraine, but it's a pounder and
everytime you move, you know what I mean. _
. TONY :Well, in fact, I've got one, too, that
you're, that you're talking here. My head, it's
probably not as bad as yours, but it's still -3 my
head's pounding a little bit, too.
STEVE: I'm having a hard time even thinking
straight right now. '
TONY :Yeah. Well, what I want you to do,
Steve, I want you to go talk to Judy now, 'cause I'm
going to call you back later and I want to talk to you.
STEVE:
to be sleeping.
TONY:
Steven.
STEVE:
my head and --
TONY:
STEVE:
before I just --
TONY:I'm going to be -- I know I'm going
I'm going to try to put a --
Then we'll have to wake you up,
I'm going to try to put a wash rag on
Steve.
-- I'm going to try to just pass out
man, this is, this is getting bad.
Then I'll tell you what. You go, you
go talk to her for an hour, you get an hour's sleep,
and I'm going to call you back.
STEVE: Well, I'm going to -- I'm going to
have a don't disturb sign on my door.
TONY: Steven, we can't do that. We've got
0 0 J
_ 9
to get this going.
STEVE: I am -- Tony, I am --
TONY: I know.
STEVE: -- totally shot.
TONY: And, Steven, and so are we. And
that's why --
STEVE: Well, no, no. Come on, Tony.
TONY: Eut you know what, Steve?
STEVE: I've talked to you guys morning,
noon, and night.
TONY: And you know what, Steven? '
STEVE: I don't get any shift breaks.
TONY: If you go talk to her tonight and you
can tell her we're going to do this in the morning --
STEVE: Tony.
TONY: -- and we do this, you're going to get
all the sleep you want tomorrow.
STEVE: Who are you going to talk to when I'm
gone from here? Who are you guys going to talk to
then? No one even here wants to --
TONY: I'm going to talk to David. But you
know what, Steven? what's going to happen is you're
going to come out here and you're going to be able to
call back in there and tell them exactly what we're
saying is true. And through you being out here, you're
going to be able to see --
I
L
K.
§>~
E_ 10
STEVE: What are you talking about? You're
saying that I'm going to be able to call from there day
by day or something?
TONY: Yes, we'll make arrangements for you
to call in as you want so that you can tell them this_
is the right way, we're going to get it resolved. We
want you to do that. We -- you said you wanted to help
bring this to a conclusion. This is one good way to do
it, and I firmly believe that and I believe you can do
that. And through that, you're going to lead those
people out of there, Steven. You're going to bring
this -- H
STEVE: You're almost making me sound like
some kind of a modern day --
TONY: No, I'm not ~- well, I'm not trying --
that - maybe I just didn't get the interpretation.
I'm not trying to do that.
STEVE: No, I know. I know.
TONY: I'm just trying to say that, that this
is the way to do it and I think you can be very
instrumental in doing this, because it's going nowhere
the way it's gone. Okay? We've gone -- gotten
absolutely nowhere, but I think that you can honestly
do something here. That's why I want you to go talk to
Judy now and talk her -- and I'm going to call you back
in a couple hours here, so I want you to go talk to her
Q I !
and convince her.
STEVE: Hopefully, I'll be in la la land and
being able to finally catch up on some z's.
TONY: Then -- well, when
tomorrow, when you come out tomorrow, we're going to
take her to the hospital, take care
take you and we'll let you get some
going to just dump you out here and
working here.
STEVE: The first thing I
going to happen to me, I'll get out
those Bradleys and --
TONY: NO.
STEVE: -- be laying face
TONY: No. They're going
STEVE: They'll search me
TONY:
I'm not going to
won't.
STEVE:
TONY: No.
who wants to be face first STEVE: But I'm --
know what I
We'll do itin the mud. You mean?
TONY:
STEVE: Well, that
find one.ll
YOU COMB out
of her. We'll
sleep. We're not
say okay, start
can imagine what's
there by one of Y
first in the mud.
-- well --
and --
They will search you. There's no --
sit here and lie and tell you they
No, I know. I don't care about that.
in a dry spot over there.
sounds good, if you can
Q .
92.,7
TONY: Yeah. We'll
and put you in that.
STEVE: -- look too
TONY: No, there is
going to search you. I'm not
I'm going to be up front with-. !
1 2
find a dry spot out there
good out there to me.
-- they're obviously
going to say they're not.
you.
STEVE: Well, the next thing I've got to do,
I've got to get a good night's sleep so I can think
about what is going on here.
TONY : Fine .
STEVE: -- because, I mean, I am shot.
TONY: Okay. You go talk to Judy. I'll call
you back. We'll get an answer from you tonight on
this.
STEVE: I'll, I'll -- here's what I'm going
to do.
TONY: And then we'll let you go to sleep.
STEVE: I'm going to talk to you in the
morning, cause I can't even --
TONY: No, I can't do that. I need to have
an answer tonight.
STEVE: I can't do it, Tony, because my head
is pounding. I don't even want to talk to her. I
can't even - right now, it's
than five minutes ago.getting so much worse
TONY: You can -- you need to go do that, you
- ~92
92;-' .,!
- 13
need to do that now. And we're going to call you back
in a couple hours. We're going to need an answer,
Steven. will you just do that?
STEVE: I was asking some of these --
TONY: Come up with an answer?
STEVE: Let me put you on with some of these
people, and when my headache's gone and I've had a good
night's rest -- 4
TONY: Hey, all I'm going, I'm going to
want --
STEVE: -- I'll talk to you.
TONY: Steven, all I'm going to want an
answer from you is yes or no. That's what I'm going to
need from you. Okay?
STEVE: 1'11 call -- i
TONY: That's important.
STEVE: I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll
tell you what I'll do. I'll pass it on to someone
else. I'll try to make the attempt, but once I go, I
mean, I don't want to be getting up and walking around.
I'm, I'm telling you, I am hurting. I really am.
TONY: Then you go -- I'll tell you what.
You go talk to her now and before you lay down and,
and --
STEVE: I'll be --
TONY: -- you come back to me and talk to me
92_* __>
14
again.
STEVE: I'll send a message with someone.
TONY: No, no, I want to, I want to talk to
you. I need it from you.
STEVE: Right now, I'm sitting back with my
head back. I'm trying to right now even -- _
TONY: I know.
STEVE: -- do what I can from having it
pound.
TONY: I know. I understand that, and it's,
it's very tiring. But we're at such an important point
right here.
STEVE: Okay.
TONY: It's something we need to do.
STEVE: By the way, Tony --
TONY: Ves?
STEVE: -- right now we have -- Julie
Martinez is here. We have --
TONY : Good .
STEVE: So she can talk to you. Is the other
person here or do you want, do you want to --
TONY: Julie -- get started with Julie here,
and if they can get Lisa or Sherry, then when Julie's
done then we can go from there. Okay?
s'rsvs= Okay.
TONY: Okay. But then when they're done
92
:Q -
there -- if you
can come back when they're
That way you can go to bed
talk to her. We'll, we'll
that.
STEVE
too?
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE:
TONY:
here, okay?
STEVE
TONY:
be getting back
STEVE
with --
TONY:
Steven. I want 92 0,._
'_!
1s
can get the answer from Judy, then you
done and I can talk to you.
right after that. So go
want either a yes or no on
You have the other negotiator there,
Yeah. '
You do? Okay.
Yeah, sure.
Well, let me pass the phone on.
Okay. And I'll pass it over to ours
Okay. We'll talk to you a little --
Okay. You go get an answer and I'll
to you here shortly.
I'll pass the answer on
No, no. I want to talk to you,
to talk to you before you go to bed,
Steve. All right?
STEVE: I'm going to probably pass out here.
TONY: Steve. Steve.
STEVE: Here's Julie.
TONY:
BOOB-Okay, I'll, I'll talk to you pretty
O
92 .- '
JULIE:
LINDA:
JULIE :
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
you already up?
JULIE :
know, the kids to
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
asked the guys toO
T . I! 16
hello? Hello?
Yes.
Hello?
Yes, this is Linda Barry.
Hi.
Hi. How are you?
Okay.
Did they.have to wake you up or were
No, I was up. I was putting, you
bed. >
Oh, you have kids?
Yeah.
How many?
Five.
You have five children?
Uh-huh.
Okay, that's why I wanted to -- I
let me talk to some of the females
because I, I believe that we would be able to talk as
woman to woman, mother to mother.
JULIE :
LINDA:
JULIE :
LINDA:
them?Uh-huh.
How are your children doing?
Oh, theyfre fine.
They -- You don't see any change in
92
know, we,
you know,JULIE492
. J
_ 17
No.
LINDA: Not at all? What about schooling?
JULIE: Oh, I -- well, I teach them. You
you know, we have books here and I've been,
they've been reading and, and they, they
really enjoy reading the Bible a lot. So --
LINDA: Well, Julie, what I really wanted to
talk to you about is getting your kids out of that
situation. As a mother, I know you know that it's
important that we get them out of that situation. It's
got to be very stressful for them. -
don't want to go.JULIE: Oh, well, they don't, you know, they
LINDA
old are they?
ages?
and --JULIE
LINDA
JULIE
LINDA
JULIE
LINDA
JULIE
LINDA:
JULIEWell, you're their mother and -- how
From I3 to 3.
Okay. what are their names?
Audrey, Abby --
Could you give me the names and the
Audrey is 13.
Okay. _
And Abby is 11. She'll be 12 in May.
Okay.
And Joseph, he's 8 or 9. Okay,
i
LINDA:
remember.
I JULIE :
LINDA :
JULIE:,_!
_ 18
Okay. It is kind of hard to
Yeah.
when you have five.
Well, I have, I have six. My husband
has one of them in California.
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:Oh, okay.
And then it's Isaiah. He's five.
Okay.
And Crystal, she's three.
Okay, Well, that's why I'm here. I
want to talk to you about getting you out of there
tomorrow and getting your five kids out of there.
JULIE :
my mom. She went
back.
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:Well, I want to know what happened to
out, you know, and she never called
Your mom? What's your mother's name?
Ophelia Santorio.
Ophelia Santorio. Let me write one
of the guys a note and see if they can't find out
exactly. I know two women were let out on bond today
and I believe it might have been her, but let me get a
confirmation on that.
JULIE: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear what you
said. The loud speaker came on and I kind of -- it --
I didn't hear what you said.
92-'? _ ! - 19
LINDA: Okay. Let me speak a little slower.
A little louder maybe.
' JULIE: Okay.
LINDA: Can you hear me now?
JULIE: Yes.
LINDA: Okay. There were two women who were
let out on bond today and they went to a halfway house.
JULIE: Uh~huh. '
LINDA: I'm not exactly sure about the names.
I'm going to have one of the guys here confirm if one
of those was your mother. Okay? ~
JULIE: Well, I think on the radio it said
that Rita Little and, and -- that -- but they let them
out, but my mom never called and I, you know --
LINDA: Well, I'm having a guy - I'm having
somebody check that for you. Okay?
JULIE: Okay.
LINDA: But what I want to talk to you about
is getting you and your kids out of there, because I
don't know how much information you've been given over
the last few weeks and I just wanted to make sure that
you, you know, that, you know, nobody's going to hurt
you. You're going to be taken care of. Your kids are
going to be taken care of. We just want you out of
that situation with those five kids. And as a mother,
I mean, I can't imagine that you would want your kids
O O.!J
. 20
in that situation for this long. I can hear in your
voice that you're a little bit concerned. V
I JULIE: Well, I'm more concerned as to what
happened to my mother.
LINDA: Well, I'm finding that out. I'm
going to -- I'm finding that out now. And as soon as
they find that out, they will let me know and I'll tell
you that. t
JULIE: Uh-huh.
LINDA: But what about your children?
JULIE: Well, they're fine, you know.
They're, they're okay.
LINDA: Okay. You know, one of the
ways -- while they're checking that, one of the ways
that you can find out about your mother is to come out.
JULIE: Ahhh. I mean, I don't know what they
did to my mother and I don't know what they'll do to
me. I know they'll take my children away and, you
know, I just - I mean, I don't really trust them, with
all the things they do and they say, you know. I
just ~- I, I can't trust them. You know, they say that
they, that they -- .
LINDA:_ I can promise you that nothing is
going to happen to your kids. They're not going to be
taken away from you.
JULIE: Look, see, before I came here, I was,
»
0, ow,
. 21
you know, I got involved with the wrong people.
LINDA: I can understand that.
JULIE: And, and, you know, I, I, I ended,
you know, -- my, my ex was, you know, got involved in
drugs and then I started, you know, -- he started
getting me into it, introducing me into it and
everything. And I did not like, you know, like what
was happening. -
LINDA: You know, I can understand how your
life was involved then. D
JULIE: Yeah. So, you know, my mother went
and she got me -- and she brought me over here and
these people have helped me. You know, they helped me
straighten, you know, get out of, you know --
LINDA: I understand that.
JULIE: -- the drug problem.
LINDA: I understand that, Julie.
JULIE: And they, they've helped me. You
know, they're like --
LINDA: But the situation there can't get any
better. We want you to come out with your five kids.
Is the father of your children there?
JULIE: NO. ' i
LINDA: Okay. who is the father?
JULIE: well, the -- one of them --
LINDA: Audrey?
. H - 9292 -* ,_!
JULIE: To Audrey?
Uh-huh.
JULIE: He lives in California.LINDA:
LINDA: Okay. What's his name?
JULIE: His name is Daniel.
LINDA: Daniel --
JULIE: Martinez.
LINDA: -- Martinez? Okay.
JULIE: Uh-huh.
LINDA: And Abby?
JULIE: That is the same. The first four
were his.
LINDA: Okay. Is that Joseph and --
JULIE: NO.
LINDA: -- Isaac?
JULIE: That's Audrey, Abby, Daniel, and
Joseph.
LINDA: Daniel?
JULIE: Daniel is with him.22
LINDA: Oh, I see. Okay. How old is Daniel?
JULIE: He's 10, I think. Yeah.
LINDA: So he's_in California with his
father?
JULIE: Yeah, hels in California.
LINDA: Okay. And what about the last two,
Isaiah and Crystal?
0. 0,92-
JULIE
LINDA
JULIE
LINDA:
JULIE
92 LINDA:
JULIE
LINDA:
JULIE
LINDA
JULIE
LINDA:
JULIE
LINDA " 23
They belong to Thomas.
Thomas?
Thomas Barrios. He lives in El Paso.
What was the last name?
Barrios.
Could you spell that?
B-A-R-R-I-0-S.
Do you have a address for him?
Not really, no.
Or any way he could be contacted?
No, no. ~
You haven't had any contact with him?
No, I haven't.
What about the children? Doesn't --
does he contact them?
JULIE: No. He's just a junkie.
LINDA: Okay. And he lives in El Paso?
JULIE: Yeah.
LINDA: Well, I think it's important that you
think about coming out tomorrow with your kids.
JULIE: I, you know, there's no way -- see --
LINDA: There: no way?
JULIE: I mean, the kids, I can't -- I mean,
I wouldn't -- I don't want the kids to end up with
their father.
LINDA: You don't want the kids -- what we
{
C-4.: -92 '
t -9 , __!
- 24
found out is they're trying to keep the children with
their parents, which would be you. You've had custody
of them all this time, right?
JULIE: Yes. And, and there's no -- you
know, they can't go with their father. Their father's
no good.
LINDA : Okay.
JULIE: You know, that's why I've been, you
know, trying to protect them. I changed my ways, you
know, I tried to straighten up my life, you know, and,
and now -- , A
LINDA: But I've heard no one say that anyone
there hasn't been a good mother to their children. But
I think the situation, as it is now, it's not going to
get better, it can only get worse. And I would think -
- as a mother, I would think you'd want to get your
kids out of that situation. I mean, what are your
other reasons that you -- you already mentioned that
one but your five kids, what are some of the other
reasons? What can I say that could reassure you that
no one's going to hurt you, they're going to be taken
care of? -
JULIE: This is our home.
LINA: I beg your pardon?
JULIE: This is our home. You know, why do
they want to take us out of our home?
7.
LINDA:0- 0,
92-' 25
Well, it's important that you leave
there. That, that can't be your home now. We have to
get you out of that situation.
JULIE: Why did they do this to us?
LINDA:
the events of theI can't talk to you about, you know,
past. The only thing we can talk
about is getting those kids and yourself out of that
situation tomorrow. .
JULIE:
want to leave. '
LINDA:
JULIE:
behind.
LINDA:
you can --
JULIE:
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
that you would be
make the decision
best for them.
JULIE:
daughters are old
LINDA:Oh, boy. Well, my daughters don't
Well, you're their mother._
And I can't, I can't leave them
Well, you're their mother. Surely,
I always gave them the freedom --
-- convince them.
-- of choice.
You're their mother. I would think
the one who's responsible, that would
for your children, what you feel is
I always gave my daughters -- my
enough to have a choice.
In this kind of situation, they
cannot have a choice. Everyone is coming out and you
ii - D !
26I
have to be a strong mother and say the best thing for
you to do is to come out with me. Just prepare them.
Sit down with them tonight and discuss the reasons that
you're going to be leaving. Set an example for them as
a strong parent. Prepare them, you know, in whatever
way you feel that they need to be prepared to come tow
the outside world. And, you know, set a time that
they're going to get up in the morning, set the routine
for their morning.
JULIE: I've talked to them.
LINDA: Well, I need you to talk to them
again tonight. As a matter of fact, now. To talk to
them before you put them to bed.
JULIE: I can try, you know. I don't know.
LINDA: But you're their mother. You said
the oldest one is 13?
JULIE: Yeah. She's grown up, you know, she
-- I always gave them a freedom of choice.
LINDA: Well, you know, I'm a mother, too,
and to me 13 is not an adult.
JULIE: Well, no, she's not an adult.
LINDA: Okay. And 13 is not --
JULIE: But she has a choice.
LINDA: -- an age where a child can make a
decision that's this big about their future. That's 92
something that the mother has to do. You said you made
Q . I92 _,' g !" 27
a decision once to change your life around.
JULIE: Yes, my life.
LINDA: Right . I
JULIE: For them.
LINDA: Well, you've got to think about them
now, their future. That's what's important right now,
your five children. I mean, what about them? They
probably miss their grandmother.
JULIE: Well, they want --
LINDA: Were they close with their
grandmother? .
JULIE: Yeah. Well, you know --
LINDA: Well, I'm sure they want to see their
grandmother. I'm sure they're wondering --
JULIE= We are, we're wondering what
happened. Why, why she didn't call.
LINDA: As far as I know, she's going to be
held as a material witness and she's fine.
JULIE: She's going to be held as a material
witness?
LINDA: Material witness. And she is fine.
JULIE: Why is, why is the other people been
released and why aren't they releasing her?
LINDA: I really can't say what the judge's
decision has been. I'm not, you know, I haven't been
in court and I really can't say about that. The only
7
92
92
C
C' 2s
thing I can say is that your mother is being held as a
material witness. She's fine. If you come out, you'll
have the opportunity to talk to her. Your kids will
have an opportunity to see her. Is there anything else
that I could probably say to you, Julie, to reassure
you that we are really interested in your children and,
and their safety and, more importantly, their future?
What, what other, other problems do you have?
JULIE: What other problems do I have?
LINDA: Yeah, that would keep you from
talking to your children tonight before you put them to
bed about preparing them, to get them ready to leave
tomorrow?
JULIE: Well, we were ready to go out, but --
LINDA: You were ready when?
JULIE: We were ready, but then, you know,
they come over here and they start destroying
everything here and terrorizing --
LINDA: Well, the thing about it is --
JULIE: Well, you know, how could you -- I
mean, I can't trust you guys. You know, you say one
thing and you do another.
LINDA: Well, you can trust me. And I can
assure you that nothing bad is going to happen to your
kids. I can't change what happened in the past.
There's nothing I can do about that. There's nothing
.0 92
--
you can do about
and the future.
that it's got to
outside and play.
the food is, but
JULIE:
LINDA : '!
_ 29
that. We're talking about tomorrow
I mean, I've got -- I have to imagine
be miserable that your kids can't go
I don't know what the situation with
Oh, you know --
-- don't you want your kids to be out
in the real world? I can't -- I just can't imagine,
you know, how you're existing there. And your mother
will probably be
JULIE:
LINDA:
JULIE:
come and mess up
LINDA:sooner or later, out on bond.
You know what the kids say?
No, what?
They, they ask why did these people
our life? We were so happy here.
Well, you know what, Julie? I can't
really talk to you about what happened in the past.
And as the mother of those kids, I think it's your
responsibility to sit them down tonight before you put
them to bed, prepare them in whatever way you feel is
necessary for tomorrow, for them to come out, for you
to come out. I can assure you --
JULIE :
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
ones thatI'll talk to my daughters.
I can assure you --
I mean, but like I say, you know --
But what about the youngest ones, the
you would make the ultimate decision?
"6'? !' so
JULIE: I can't, I can't let them out on
their own. _
U LINDA: But would you come out with
those -- the smaller --
W JULIE: I can't leave my, my daughters here.
LINDA: So you're going to allow the 13-year-
old to make a decision that --
JULIE: Hey, you know, I'm not going to force
her to do anything she doesn't want to do.
LINDA: I -- you know, as a mother, I can't
understand how you could say that. -
JULIE: I always gave her free choice.
LINDA: In a situation like this, she's a
child. She's not an adult. It's up to you as an
adult. I mean, let me just say, me, as a mother, you
know, I would say darling, tonight -- tomorrow we're
going to be doing this. I need you to prepare V
yourself. This is why I want you to leave, this is why
we are leaving.
JULIE: Yeah, I could say that, but for her
to agree with me is something else. This is their
home. You're asking them to leave their home.
LINDA: But it can't be their home anymore.
You know, this has been going on for a long time and at
some point the situation is going to change, and it's
not going to be a place that you're going to be able to
t
92
I
92
5'.
c0 p 0K" ! 31
live any longer. We're trying to get you to come
tomorrow -- _
JULIE: You're saying that, that we won't be
able to live here any longer and, you know --
LINDA: Right, you won't be - at some point
in time --
JULIE: -- we could come back.
LINDA: At some point in time very soon you
will not be able to live there. I'm trying to get you
to do this tomorrow, to set an example with your
children. Stop acting, you know, like your children
can tell you what to do. Be strong and make the
preparations that are necessary and come out tomorrow.
Now, you know, what can happen in the future, whether
you can return there, you know, I don't know, but it's
a possibility. But as of the time right now, for
tomorrow, we want you to leave, to walk out with your
children tomorrow. I can assure you that you all are
going to be taken care of, you're going to be treated
humanely.
Nobody's going to hurt you. No one's going
to hurt your kids. no one is going to take your kids
away from you. But I can't tell you what's going to
happen in the future. You may be able to return there,
but as of now you can't -- that can't be your home.
You know, after everything is settled, people will be
Qt, I!92.- ._
- 32
able to return there, but right at the present time,
that's not a possibility. Julie?
' JULIE: Yeah.
LINDA: Are you still there?
JULIE: Yeah, I'm here.
LINDA: I hope, I hope you're thinking,
especially about your kids. I mean --
a1n..1s= I love my kids.
LINDA: I know you do. I know, I know that
feeling. You know, you know, I wish you could really
be around this place and see how these guys feel. They
haven't even met your kids, but most of them have kids.
This whole situation is like it is because of those
kids.
JULIE: I see them everyday --
LINDA: These guys are -- -
JULIE: -- going around here --
LINDA: They're like everything --
JULIE: -- mocking us through the loud
speaker and, you know, flipping us off and mooning us
and, and, you know --
LINDA: Because we want you to come out.
JULIE: They do that because they want us to
come out?
LINDA: we want you to come out and end this
situation for the kids sake.
0. 0,xi; __.
_ 33
JULIE: They flip us off and moon us and, and
all that because they want us to come out?
LINDA: Well, you know, I wouldn't even
concern myself with that. What you need to be
concerned with is your five children and yourself. You
know, you need to set an example with your daughters
and your sons. This is -- it would be the same as if
they wanted to go on drugs or take drugs.
JULIE: Yeah, well --
LINDA: You wouldn't want them to do that.
You would be very strong against that. So tomorrow --
tonight you must be -- you should be very strong in
telling them what you're going to do tomorrow.
JULIE: Well, it's like this is where they
were safe from all that.
LINDA: No, you're not.
JULIE: There's no drugs here.
LINDA: This is -- you know what, Julie? If
at anytime in your life you've ever been strong for
your kids, if you've ever been a real mother to your
kids, this is the time to do it. This is the time for
you to be strong. This is the time for you to stand up
for your children. This is it. This is it. I mean, I
can't think of many mothers who face something like
this. This is where your strength is going to show.
This is it. Do you see what I'm saying?
o 5 o92 ~ -v! 34
JULIE: Yeah.
LINDA: I know I have never been tested like
this. But for my children, hey, I would prepare them
tonight. I can assure you -- I assure you that nothing
bad is going to happen to your children.
JULIE: No, just end up in a foster home I
somewhere and they get abused and slapped around.
LINDA: Let me assure you that
everybody --
JULIE: Giving them junk food and, and pork
and all that. -
LINDA: Is that a -- that should not be a
concern 'cause that's not true. They always want to
keep the children with their parents.
JULIE: Hey, that's what they've been saying
on the radio, that, you know, they're going to be put
in foster homes. They weren't even being sent, you
know, they weren't even going to allow them to be sent
to their relatives.
- LINDA: They are being sent to their
relatives. If you -- you know, the kids that came out,
if there's nobody out there, if their parents didn't
come out with them, we canit -- what do we do with
them? We have to give them to a relative. And the way
the relative is determined, it's determined by the
judge. He has an independent study done of the home
. 92 '
kw!» >
_ ~' as
that they would go to and he makes the decision of
which relative he believes is capable of taking care of
that child.
They don't just give these kids to any
relative that shows up. It has to be someone who is
responsible, who has the love for that child, and also
has the financial capabilities of taking care of the
child.
JULIE: I, I need time to think about it.
LINDA: Julie, let me, let me tell you
something. You know this as well as I do. -This has
been going on almost for a month. It's not going to
get better. Do you think so?
JULIE
LINDA
JULIE
» LINDA
only going --
JULIE
LINDA
with you, okay?
JULIE
LINDA:If God does something, yeah.
It's not going to get better.
Do you believe in God?
It's not going to get better. It's
Do you believe in God up in heaven?
I'm not going to discuss religion
Well +-
The only thing we want to
discuss -- that I want to discuss with you is your
safety and the we11being of your children, out of that
place. This is a real test for you. I know that, I
r
92
0. o , v ..
36
understand that.
JULIE: Yeah, in many ways. .
LINDA: You know, what you can do is to talk
to your kids about coming out tomorrow and prepare them
for that. As a mother, you need to be strong and tell
them that we are going to leave here tomorrow, and you
need to prepare them to leave. And I want you to let
Steve know that you're ready to come out.
JULIE: Well --
LINDA: He, he's, he's been looking around
for people who want to come out with him tomorrow. And
before you go talk to your children, find him and let
him know that you want to be, along with your five
children, one of the people who comes out tomorrow.
This -- I know this is a test for you, but you have to
be strong for your kids. What about your other son,
Daniel? You also -- I mean, you have -- you're the
mother of six children.
JULIE: His father don't - yeah, I have
visitation rights and nobody has ever been able to help
me get to see him.
I LINDA: Do you have a brother by the name of
Joe?
JULIE: Yeah.
LINDA: would he be able to help care for
your children for a while?
r
K
I
k. K ,1
JULIE :
LINDA:
JULIE :
would let him.
LINDA:
said that he'd be
for a while.
JULIE :
LINDA:
JULIE :
LINDA:
bit?
JULIE :
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
JULIE :
LINDA:
JULIE:'!_ - 37
I hope, I hope they'll let him.
Okay. Okay. You know, we'll try and
If I do end up going out, I hope they
I've just been told that he's already
willing to take care of your children
Um-hum.
They have a message in here from him.
Yeah. _
Does that reassure you just a little
Yeah. well --
Okay.
-- I've been thinking about that.
Okay.
And --
Now's the time, Julie.
-- I, you know, I just have my doubts
that you guys will let him take care of them, you know,
with what I heard
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:on the, on the radio about --
Is, is he a responsible relative?
Oh! YES. '
Okay. Then the judge would make that
decision, but if he's the most responsible relative
~
O. 3,92'__.' _ __.
_ 38
that you have, you know, we would urge him to do that.
JULIE: He's the only one I have.
LINDA: Okay. Then, you know, if that's what
your decision is, if you would want your brother Joe to
take care of the kids, you know, we would urge the
judge. I mean, we would say, you know, this is what
she wants, this is what she feels is the best -- is in
the best interest for her children.
JULIE: I don't think they really care what I
want or what I, you know --
LINDA: You don't think I really care what
you want?
JULIE: I don't think they -- no.
LINDA: That's the reason that we're here
talking to you. That's the reason that I'm talking to
you. I mean, I asked to talk to some of the mothers
who had children because I thought you might feel a
little bit more comfortable talking to me rather than
talking to some of the men. You know, I wanted to make
sure that the things that you feel and the things that
are important to you, that you get to say that to
92
another female. And I may.be able to understand a 92
little bit better than some of these guys, which may 92
not be necessarily true, but --
JULIE: Well, they're saying that, you know,
that, that David is being -- is, is using the kids as a
,
K
i
c
Y"r # "&.!
_ ' 39
shield and that, you know, like that Craig guy, you
know, Craig Smith, you know, saying that --
' LINDA: I don't know --
JULIE: -- this guy comes in and, and, and is
going to shoot you, you know, cause your kid is a
shield. _ _
LINDA: Julie - -
JULIE: That is so --
LINDA: - Craig doesn't work --
JULIE: -- ridiculous.
LINDA: He doesn't work for us, so"I can't
really, you know, say anything about what he says.
Those are his views and those are his opinions. What
we have to be concerned -- what I'm concerned with, and
I know what you are most concerned with, is your
children. And I wanted to talk to you because I wanted
to make sure you got the truth and that it wasn't
filtered to you through somebody else that, you know,
we had a chance to talk, one on one.
JULIE: I really -- the only reason why I
came to the phone was because I wanted to know how my
mother is.
LINDA: Okay. The things that we've talked
about, you know, I've already assured you that your
mother's fine. If you come out, you'll be able
to --
_ . _ !I 40
JULIE: And she never called.
LINDA: -- you'll have a chance to talk to
your mother. You'll have a chance to see your mother.
You can't do that in there.
JULIE: Yeah. Well, that's what you could
say right now. What, what --
LINDA:
JULIE
LINDA:
JULIE
LINDA
JULIE
LINDA
JULIE
LINDAWhat's the problem --
-- guarantee do I have?
What guarantee do you have?
Yeah.
You want me personally? '
What guarantee do I have that --
My name is Linda Barry.
Huh?
You have my personal guarantee that
nothing bad is going to happen to you or your kids.
JULIE: I don't know.
LINDA: Is that the guarantee that you want?
What guarantee --
JULIE: Yeah, because, I mean, then you
guys -- you know what happens is you say well, my
comanders say, you know, and, and, and it's like, you
know --
LINDA: What guarantees do you need from us?
JULIE: I don't know. I guess -- about that
LINDA: The reason I'm talking to you is
9!
_ ~ 41
because I'm interested in you and your children.
JULIE: That's why I need some more time to
think about it. I don't -- I'm not -- I don't know.
I'm trying to think what --
LINDA: You know, the reason that I'm here is
because, Julie, we're running out of time. That's the
problem. What, what do I need to do? Do I need to
give you a little bit of time to convince you that I'm
coming from the heart with you on this?
JULIE: Well, no. Well --
LINDA: Well, you know, you need to prepare
tonight.
JULIE: Well, like, like I said, you know, we
were going to -- we were all going to come out.
LINDA: Okay. But today, today -- I don't
know what happened in the past. We're talking about
today. Okay, you need to make that decision now and
prepare yourself to come out tomorrow. You know, what
you need to do is go and talk to your children before
you put them to bed and let them know exactly --
JULIE: They're already in bed.
LINDA: Well, you know, it's important enough
that you wake them up. It's important enough that you
wake them up and prepare them for coming out tomorrow.
It's very important. I mean, I can't think of any more
important decision that you have to make as a mother.
O - O. 1
7.1 !
_ ' 42
You need to wake them up, you need to wash their hair,
prepare them by telling them exactly what to expect
tomorrow. And you need to prepare them. Are you, you
know, what are you feeling, a little bit confused? You
sound a little bit confused and kind of weak and kind
of done, tired. A
JULIE: Well, you know, I think we're all a
little tired, but -- '
LINDA: It's not going to get better. I can
really guarantee and assure you that. Have you seen
Steve around there? '§ause you need to tell him that
you're going to prepare your kids and yourself to come
out tomorrow. That's the other thing.
JULIE: Well, I can't really -- I can't tell
him that cause I still need to go talk to, you know,
my daughter and see what she says.
LINDA: Okay. Well, why don't you do that
first? Go and talk to your daughter. Get them up,
talk to them, tell them that tomorrow --
JULIE: No, I need to talk to my daughter
because, see, I don't have my, you know, I don't -- I
don't have my husband, you know, to talk to or
anything. So she is the one I talk to and we make
decisions together and --
LINDA: You know your brother wants you out.
JULIE: Yeah.
O
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K
pvt
92
C.0 0 1,
_ 43
LINDA: Your brother Joe is really wanting
you out of there and he wants his nieces and nephews
out of there.
JULIE : Well --
LINDA: That's, you know, that's a real
positive thing, that you have someone in your family 4
that loves you enough that they, they're concerned
about you, your welfare. And not only yours, but your
kids. I mean, there's got to be a lot of love between
you and your brother.
JULIE: Well, you know, all I'm going out --
I'd be going out there is to go to jail. I mean, so
really, what is the difference?
LINDA: You know, we can get that resolved.
That's, that's tomorrow. But I'm sure the judge would
work with you so that Joe can get your kids.
JULIE: Yeah, and I go to jail. Well, I
mean, no --
LINDA: I really don't know what's going to
happen. You would go before a judge and he would make
that decision.
JULIE: Yeah, well --
LINDA: You know, I -- at this point, I
really just don't know. And, you know, it's only a
temporary thing. You know, your most important thing
right now is your children. Isn't that the most
0., 0""- "! 44'
important thing?
JULIE: Yeah, they are. _
LINDA: Aren't your kids the most important
thing right now?
JULIE: To me they always are.
LINDA: Right .
JULIE: I don't know. I, I need time to
think about it. .
LINDA: And you should do this -- this is
something you need to do for your children, Julie.
JULIE: What? _
LINDA: This is something that you need to do
for the future of your children.
JULIE: The future. I don't know if
there's --
LINDA: 'You know, you're not going to be
allowed ~- nobody's going to be allowed to stay there.
JULIE: Yeah.
LINDA: You need to come out tomorrow, bring
your children out tomorrow so you can get on with your
life.
JULIE : What life?
LINDA: You're stuck. Exactly. Exactly.
You have no -- exactly.
JULIE: They'll throw me in prison, in jail
and throw away the key.
Q» . O, _ 1 I 4s
LINDA: You know, I just -- I don't know
about that. I can't really say. '
V JULIE: Yeah. Well --
LINDA: You want to go talk to your children
and get back to me?
JULIE: Yeah. I need, I need to think about
it.
LINDA: Okay. Why don't I call you in about
half an hour?
JULIE: Oh, halt an hour?
LINDA: Um-hum.
JULIE : No.
LINDA: Fifteen minutes, or how long do you
think it'll take?
JULIE: I don't know. ,
LINDA: Okay. Well, you want to call me
back?
JULIE: I don't know. Did you want to talk
to somebody else?
LINDA: Yes, I do. Either Lisa Ferris or
Sherry Doyle.
JULIE: Lisa Ferris?
LINDA: Uh-huh.
JULIE: All right.
LINDA: Is she there?
JULIE: Yeah. I think she's around here.
"k.§
LINDA
JULIE
LINDA
JULIE
LINDA
children.
JULIE
LINDA
me back.
JULIE'1
46
Okay. ~
Okay, let me go get her for you.
Are you going to call me back?
Well, I've got to, I've got to --
I know you have to talk to your
Yeah.
After you talk to your children, call
I'm not going to force them to do
anything they don't want to do. _
LINDA: Julie, you have to be their mother.
You have to be the adult. You are the adult in the
family. Your children are going to follow your
example. You have to set the example.
JULIE: -See, you know, I, I made this, you
know, this thing that I was going to -- that my -- that
I wasn't going to -- I wanted to be more of a friend to
my daughter than a --
LINDA: Welf, this is the best thing a friend
could do for another friend.
JULIE
LINDA:
JULIE
LINDA:
JULIEYeah. Well, yeah.
This is the best.
Yeah, not force her.
Julie, your daughter's 13.
Yeah.
~xn
..,? !
LINDA:
JULIE:
' LINDA:_ 47
You're her mother.
She's my -- She -- p
She can't be all wise and all
knowing. She can't have had as much experience in, in
life as you have. You have to accept that
responsibility, to make this decision. This is the
most important decision you're probably going to make
in a long time. And you need to be the one, you need
to take the responsibility.
JULIE: And it'll probably be the -- my --
the last decision that this government would ever let
me make.
LINDA:
children.
JULIE:
LINDA:Julie, you have to think about your
Yeah. Okay, let me go talk to --
Okay, go talk to her and I want you
to call me back, okay?
JULIE:
LINDA:
JULIE:
LINDA:
Sherry.
JULIE:
LINDA:
End of Tape #155Okay. when I get Lisa --
Are you going to call me back?
Yeah.
Okay. And if you could get Lisa or
Okay.
Okay, thanks.
!
WE /
92 O
1
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO Q FIREARMS
TAPE #166
3/25/93 - 3/26/93
10:38 P.M. - 6:00 A.M.
O I
K -1 2
Voices in background not discernible.!
t i 1 Q G
LISA: Hello?
MS. BARRY: This is Linda Barry.
LISA: I-Ii.
MS. BARRY: Hi, how are you?
LISA: Fine. How are you?
MS. BARRY: Good. Did they have to wake you
up or --
LISA: Yeah, yeah, that's all right.
MS. BARRY: ,Okay. I just wanted to talk to
you to make sure that, you know, you're getting all the
information that I have. Do you have any children
there?
LISA: No, uh-uh.
MS. BARRY: Are you there by yourself?
LISA: Uh-huh.
MS. BARRY: Okay. I want you to come out
tomorrow. That's the message that I have for you, and
I just wanted to know if you have any questions or
concerns that you want to ask me.
LISA: Okay. The only -- the only main
concern that I have is that you understand that the,
the hostileness that you guys have shown us is what's
made us just totally, you know, basically not want to
have anything to do with you guys. You know, I mean --
n
ox, 0!
_ 3
MS. BARRY: Well, you know, the situation
that, that exists is not going to be allowed to exist
much longer.
LISA: Right.
MS. BARRY: And so --
LISA: The promises is we could have our
house to stand, and yet, you -- today you guys run over
a motorcycle. You know? I mean, totally ran over our
motorcycles. .
7 MS. BARRY: Right.
LISA: And 7-
MS. BARRY: We want you to come out and
that's why they're doing that.
LISA: I mean --
MS. BARRY: They want -- because you can't
stay there. You have to come out, and at some later
time --
LISA: The big bad wolf's going to huff and
puff and blow the house down or something?
MS. BARRY: I'm sorry?
LISA: It's like the big bad wolf blowing our
house down. _
MS. BARRY: Well, Lisa --
LISA: Trying to get the, you know --
MS. BARRY: Lisa, you can't stay there. You
know at some point you're going to have to come out of
0. 0!
. A 4
there, and we want you out tomorrow. No, nobody's
ygoing to hurt you. You're going to be well taken care
of. If you have any medical concerns that you have,
that's going to be taken care of. But you and I both
know that that situation cannot go on. In the future,
maybe you'll be able to return there. I don't know.
But right now we want you to come out tomorrow. We
want you to find Steven tonight and let him know that
you're one of the people that wants to come out
tomorrow with him. And then prepare yourself in
whatever way, wash your hair, do whatever preparations
you need to do to come out tomorrow.
LISA: Well, I don't think Steve's coming out
tomorrow and I know for a fact that I'm not going to
come out tomorrow.
MS. BARkY: He's looking for someone to come
out -- .
LISA: I can't --
MS. BARRY: /-- tomorrow. He wants to know
the people that are going to come out with him. And I
want you to be one of those people. That's why I
wanted to talk to some of_the females, because I
thought we would be to -- you would be able to voice
whatever concerns you have --
LISA: Yes.
MS. BARRY: -- to me better than you would
5
92,' _!
- s
some of the guys that are here.
LISA: He was one of the ones that asked me
when he was talking to Dick, and I told Dick hey, I
want to tell you some of the reasons why I'm not coming
out. And he said basically he didn't want to talk to_
me, which was fine, you know. But --
MS. BARRY: If Steve will come out
tomorrow -- '
LISA: -- this Keith, whatever his name,
Keith Smith, you know, the guy's really --
MS. BARRY: ,I don't know.
LISA: -- put us down from, you know --
MS. BARRY: Well, don't, don't concern yourself with
it.
LISA: But that's the thing.
MS. BARRY: That's just his opinion.
' LISA: All these promises that you guys
promised us and the guy's, you know -- well he'll,
he'll talk --
MS. BARRY: What --
LISA: -- cause he's made a promise
t0 --
MS. BARRY: What promises?
LISA: -- go past you?
MS. BARRY: What promises?
LISA: He promised that, that, you know, that
I
_. - _.-_..._.__.._..___._-_._-_.__.. .
O I
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6
we could get what we had to say out and, and it would
be over on the Christian radio --
MS. BARRY: If I'm not, if I'm not mistaken,
that he did get that message out. It was on the air.
LISA: Okay, he --
MS. BARRY: Uninterrupted for 56 minutes.
LISA: -Okay, he did.
MS. BARRY: Okay.
LISA: And then the promise --
MS. BARRY: The promise that he made that he
did not keep -- ~
LISA: Yeah.
MS. BARRY: Okay, he did not keep
to come out. Am I not right?
LISA: Okay. No, but I'm talking
MS. BARRY: No, no, no. Am I not
LISA: No.
MS. BARRY: Did he not -- did you
keep your promise?his promise
cu-
right?
all not
LISA: Because you guys didn't promise some
of the promises that you guys had promised.
MS. BARRY: Wait, wait, wait. You're going
back a couple of days here.
LISA: Right. Maybe a week or so
MS. BARRY: The promise was that if the
message went out on the radio, uninterrupted, to a
Iv I_ !
_ 7
national audience, that you all would come out
following the playing of that message. That did not
happen.
LISA: Okay, because --
MS. BARRY: That's a broken promise. _ 92
' LISA: Because a lot of things that you guys
promised --
MS. BARRY: No, no, no, no, no. No, no.
What I'm saying, at that moment that didn't happen.
You're trying to confuse something that's happened
later with that particular moment. I'm talking about
after that was done, he promised that you all would
come out. Am I not right?
LISA: Okay, well, that --
MS. BARRY: No, wait. First of all, let's
get that point down, okay, so there's no confusion
between you and I. Is that not what he promised?
LISA: Well --
MS. BARRY: No, no, no.
LISA: -- not to my recollection.
MS. BARRY: That's not to your recollection?
LISA: No, it isn't. Because I know that you
guys have made a lot of statements.
us. nanny: Okay, well, what, what, what is A
your recollection of what David promised when he read
that message over, over the radio?
0
GI ll , .1
.. 92 8I ' LISA: That's not -- I, I -- that's not the
2 point. The point is -- A
3 _ MS. BARRY: But, no, but it is the point --
4 LISA: The point is --5 MS. BARRY: -- because the point you're
6 trying to make with me is that --
7 LISA: -- these guys totally have
8 been -- '
9 MS. BARRY: -- we've broken promises.10 LISA: -- they're making us all these rude11 statements about us. Da, da, da, he's going on --12 MS. BARRY: Lisa --
13 LISA: -- come up and he's going to say well
14 --
15 MS. BARRY: -- you've got it up. You're the16 one that says that we're breaking our promise, and I am
l7
18 LISA: Okay, fine.
19 MS. BARRY: I am not going to let you sithere and put the FBI down and tell lies about the FBI,going to defend my organization.
20
21 because they simply are not true. And you, you know22 that as a fact. It's not true.
23 LISA: Well, like 1 said, that's my24 recollection that I, I recall.
25 MS. BARRY: Well, let's go back and see if we
can't --
1 92
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QA_...__- D A e , _...- !
92_, _ .
9
LISA: That's -- but that's not the point.
The point I'm trying to make --
MS. BARRY: Yeah -- but, no, but it is the
point because --
LISA: -- you guys stepped on our toes by l
saying all these rude statements. Well, I'll let them
talk because I already -.
MS. BARRY: Lisa.
LISA: -- promised them that I would.
MS. BARRY: Lisa, you know what? .
LISA: Look, we don't care. We don't want to
MS. BARRY: That is exactly the point,
because everything is getting blurred here and the
truth, you're not -- you don't - obviously don't have
the truth. The truth is that David said -- l
_ LISA: No, the thing is that you guys don't
have the truth. You don't even know what the truth is.
MS. BARRY: Okay, so, you know, he's not a
man of his word. That's what the world sees. Because
he said once that statement was read that you all would
come out. It was played. You all did not come out.
He did not keep his promise. Now, we can go from that
into the future. You know what I just said is true.
David lost his credibility right there. Now, what,
what promises --
.
L4 - ~ -... _._.-_...__._.. . ........¢___ ._.. - .
0. 0,
' 10
L 1 LISA: You guys lost your credibility before
2 you even guys came in. The ATP, you know, blew it --
3 MS. BARRY: No, you're not -- I can't -- I'm
4 not talking -- we're not going to discuss the ATP.
S This is the FBI. I'm Linda Barry, I'm with the FBI,
6 not ATF. Okay?
7 ' LISA: Uh-huh.
8 MS. BARRY: A different day, different
9 ballgame, new beginning. We're talking about today and
10 tomorrow morning. You coming out, preparing yourself
11 tonight and coming out tomorrow. That's what we want
12 to discuss right now.
13 LISA: Okay, well.
Y 14 MS. BARRY: Because, you know, that's,
15 that's, that's what's up. That's the agenda right now.
16 LISA: Um-hum. Are you one of the woman
17 negotiators or something?
18 MS. BARRY: Yes.
19 LISA: Okay.
20' MS. BARRY: If Steve would come out tomorrow
21 would you?
22 MS. FERRIS TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where's
23 Steve at, you guys?
24 UNIDENTIFIED PERSONS: Indiscernible!
I
25 MS. BARRY: He's looking for people that want
D: to come out tomorrow.
Os. I92 * 1
- ll
LISA: Yeah, I know. He already talked to
me.
MS. BARRY: I beg your pardon?
LISA: He already talked to me. Like I said,
he - I was here when, when he was talking to Dick and
MS. BARRY: Well, you know, I wanted to talk
to as many of the women there as I could, because I
thought we would -- ~
LISA: Okay. Well, do you want to talk to
somebody else? ,, 4
MS. BARRY: Well, I'm not finished talking
with you yet, because I want to, you know, get down and
make one final point with you. The point is that
everybody's going to be coming out of there in the very
near future. Okay? Lisa? Hello? Hello?
LISA: Hello.
MS. BARRY: Is this Lisa?
LISA: Yeah. '
MS. BARRY: Okay. Did you leave the phone
for a few minutes?
LISA: NO, uhuh. 92
MS. BARRY: Okay. Did you hear what I said?
LISA: Um-hum.
Ms. BARRY: Okay. Do you have any reaction
to that? ,
0,]. I !
_ 12
LISA: Well, I mean --
MS. BARRY: Or what is your reaction to that?
LISA: I basically told you guys my reaction.
MS. BARRY: You -- but you didn't tell -- I'm
not one of the guys, I'm -- 4
LISA: Well, you know, everybody's listening,
so --
MS. BARRY: I'm sorry?
LISA: Everybody's -- it's recorded, so
everybody's listening.
MS. BARRY: Rut I'm asking you now, not what
somebody else said or -- last year, last week, but now.
What's your reaction to that?
LISA: Well, I mean, I can't understand why
you guys are coming from. I know your job and I know
what you have to do.
MS. BARRY: Okay. We have to have 10 people
out of there tomorrow and I want you to be one of those
people.
msn: well --
MS. BARRY: Well?
LISA: I'm glad you want me to be one of
those people, but I don't know if, you know --
MS. BARRY: You don't know if what?
LISA: I don't know if I'm going to be able
to oblige to your request --
0. U,
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MS. BARRY: What assurances do you need? You
know, let's get down to the bottom line. What
assurances do you need from me --
LISA: well, you know, I mean --
MS. BARRY: -- to come out tomorrow and whyv
are you reluctant?
LISA: Because, you know, you guys are coming
into my -- broke into the house, you know, you've got
these tanks. You've got these big things swinging in.
my face, like --
MS. BARRY: Lisa.
LISA: -- trying to intimidate me.
MS. BARRY: Lisa.
LISA: What do you want to do? Kill me? You
want to shoot me? I mean --
MS. BARRY: Lisa, this is the FBI.
LISA: -- maybe you don't even want me to
come out.
XMS. BARRY: This is a complete different
ballgame we're playing today, okay? I had, I had
nothing to do with what happened in the past or
yesterday. This is the FBI, okay?
LISA: See, you guys fail to realize --
MS. BARRY: Not -- it's not you guys. This
is the FBI. ' '
LISA: Yeah, and that's what --
Ow O, y!
_ 14
MS. BARRY: Do you understand the difference?
LISA: Yeah.
MS. BARRY: Okay, there is a difference.
LISA: Yeah, but it's all basically
one --
MS. BARRY: No, it's not.
LISA: -- one --
MS. BARRY: It's not basically one anything.
LISA: Okay. Well, what about one world .
government? Inter-police, and all these things.
MS. BARRY: You know, that's not really
important. Let's get back --
LISA: Isn't that all one thing? You guys
are all in one organization.
MS. BARRY: Well, that's not really
important. Let's get back to what needs to happen
tomorrow. Okay? And I'm asking you woman to woman
what assurances do you need from me and what, what are
some of the reasons that you're --
LISA: I don't need any assurance from you.
I got assurance from God. He's the only one that
matters in this situation.
MS. BARRY: No, I'm here trying to help you.
LISA: I mean, God, I've got all the help I
need from God.
MS. BARRY: I'm here trying to help you,
. 592.. ._!
~ 15
1 Lisa. I'm trying to make you understand the situation
2 as it exists. You need to make an adult decision.
3 These are the kind of decisions that adults make. You
4 need to make that decision within the next few hours
5 and prepare yourself to come out tomorrow.
6 LISA: Well --
7 MS. BARRY: You know, this is something that
'8 you need to do for yourself. Somebody -- you know, you
9 don't need to listen to anybody telling you anything.
10 LISA: I'm not listening to anybody. I
ll already made my decision. Q
12 MS. BARRY: What about the people, what about
13 the people out here? Your family, your relatives that
14 love you? They're worried. What about them?
15 LISA: The only family that cares about me is
16 God. That's it.
17 MS. BARRY: Well, he's out here, too.
18 LISA: No, he's right here with me.
19 MS. BARRY: He's not -- but I'm telling you
20 that within the next, you know, very short period of
21 time, you know, everybody's going to have to come out
22 of there, and I'd like for you to make that decision,
23 as an adult, for yourself, tomorrow. So that you can
24 put this behind you and get on with your life. There's
25 ino life there now. When's the last time you were out
in the sunshine? i
Q.
I
§
f
.7
92
f
92
C.1 ; .! -
- 16
LISA: You don't know my God or what God's
doing. You don't even know what the scriptures teach,
basically.
MS. BARRY: Lisa, I'm really not going to
discuss anything about the scriptures or the Bible _
because that's not what we're trying to work on right
now. What we're trying to do is to have you make an
adult decision for yourself, for your life, your
future, for you to prepare yourself to come out
tomorrow. That's all. It's real simple.
LISA: Umhum, I believe that. '
MS. BARRY: Okay. Do you think it's real
simple? It's as simple as that. Nobody --
LISA: It's simple if that's what you want to
do, yeah.
MS. BARRY: If that's what I want to do?
LISA: Yeah. If the person's thinking about
Umt--
MS. BARRY: That's what I want you to do. I
want you to make an adult decision to come out.
LISA: Okay. Well, let me think about it,
okay? '
MS. BARRY: would you call me back?
LISA: Well, no, cause I'm going to -- no.
I'll just talk to Steve about it. Steve's -- if I mean
-- if Steve decides, that, that, you know --
@
s
K
C
' K
K _ !
- 17
MS. BARRY: Okay, you'll talk to Steve?
LISA: Yeah. a
MS. BARRY: Okay. Then I'll have a chance to
talk to him. I hope you make the right decision for
your future, I really do, Lisa, because I really care
about you
Greg.LISA: Okay.
MS. BARRY: Okay?
LISA: Yeah. I'll talk to you later.
MS. BARRY: All right. All right.
LISA: Bye. N
MS. BARRY: Bye. Hold on a second.
1 Q i i i
Telephone ringing.!
GREG: Hello?
TONY: Who's this? Hello?
GREG: Who's this?
TONY: Yeah, this is Tony.
GREG: Hey, Tony, how you doing? This is
TONY: Hi, Greg. How you doing?
GREG: I'm trying.
TONY: Good. Hey, can you get David?
GREG: No, not at the minute.
TONY: Why not?
GREG: He's not available.
._-__.-_.___ _ _. . .- .___ .. -
~.'
. 18
TONY: What's he doing?
GREG: I don't know. I don't keep track of
him.
TONY: Oh. Can't go get him, huh?
GREG: No. You want to talk to Judy?
TONY: Well, I'd like to talk to David.
GREG: Well, he: not available.
TONY: Okay, I'll talk to Judy.
GREG: Okay, hold on.
[sap]
GREG: You there?
TONY: Yeah, I'm still here.
GREG: Hold on.
leap]
TONY: Hel1O?
JUDY: Hello.
TONY: Hello, Judy?
JUDY: Hi.
TONY: Hi. How you doing tonight?
JUDY: Pine. I hope you don't mind going on
a helicopter ride. It: the only station we can get in
right nou. A
TONY: Oh, is that right?
JUDY: Yeah.
TONY: That's the only one, huh?
JUDY: Yeah.
I
X
i92 _!
. 19
TONY: Did Steven talk to you tonight?
JUDY: Well, I talked to him, yeah.
TONY: Yeah. What do you think?
JUDY: Well, I didn't talk about -- I didn't
talk to him about anything in specific.
TONY: Oh. Well, Steven said he was going to
talk to you about tomorrow.
JUDY: Oh.
TONY: At least that's what he told me he was
going to go do.
JUDY: Yeah. Well, he knows I'm not going
nowhere.
TONY: You're not, huh?
JUDY: No. I believe David opens the Seven
Seals and I'm waiting on him right now. Waiting on
him, waiting on his God.
TONY: What did Steve say to you?
JUDY: My God. Huh?
TONY: What did you and Steve talk about?
JUDY: Well, like I said, I haven't, I
haven't talked about him anything in specific. I just
woke up. _
TONY: Oh, you did? Well, but you did talk
to him?
JUDY: I haven't talked to him since I woke 25
h up. I just woke up right now.
0, 0!
- 20
TONY: You haven't talked to him tonight?
JUDY: I think someone came to my room about
10 or a little later, and I just woke up right now.
They said somebody wanted to talk to me, but I was
sleeping
TONY: You were sleeping, huh?
JUDY: Uh-huh.
TONY: Yeah. Well, David was supposed to
come and talk to you tonight. At least that's what he
told me he was. I assumed he was going to keep his
word.
JUDY: Well, I told him I was sleeping.
TONY: You told him you were sleeping?
JUDY: Yeah.
TONY: How could you tell him you were
sleeping if you were sleeping?
sleepingJUDY: I woke up and I said well, I'm
TONY: Oh. I
JUDY: I'd talk to him later.
TONY: And what did he say?
JUDY: All right.
TONY: Where is he at?
JUDY: I don't know. I just woke up. 92
TONY: Oh, you just woke up, huh?
JUDY: Yeah.
_ . . . . .-¬_._._;___-_-.___._._...._...__.-.-__._-_ .
92!
TONY:
he there?
JUDY:
anywhere.
TONY :
How's your hand?
JUDY :
TONY :
better? -
JUDY:
TONY :
JUDY :
TONY :
JUDY :
TONY :
don't want it to
JUDY :
TONY:
JUDY :
some ice cream.
TONY :
you? '1 know tha
I'm asking is he
JUDY :
TONY :.,!
' 21
Well, I wanted him to talk to you. Is
It doesn't matter. I'm not going
I know, but I wanted to talk to him.A
It's all right.
Is it? Is it hurting or is it getting
Actually, it hurts more now because,
you know, like when it heals the skin tightens.
Yeah, that usually happens, too.
But it's all right.
Is it infected at all?
No. '
No? Okay. Well, that's good. We
get worse.
No, it's not getting worse.
Okay. Listen, is Steve there?
no. He went to town for -- to get
I mean, is he right standing there by
t, I know he's there at the complex.
there available?
He's not right here, no.
He's not there, huh?
C0. 0!
- 22Q
1 JUDY: Uh-uh.
2 TONY: Can you get David?
3 JUDY: I don't know what they're doing right
4 now. I can go check.
5 TONY: Could you check for me? I would
6 appreciate it.
7 JUDY: You want to talk to him about what?
8 TONY: I just want to talk to him.
9 JUDY: Okay. Hold on, let me see if I can
10 find him.
ll TONY: Okay., Thank you.
12 JUDY: Um-hum.
f 13 [gap]
L 14 sum: David's outside and I talked to
15 Steven. He said David's got a splitting headache, that
16 I shouldn't wake him up.
17 TONY: Well, we need to talk to him.
18 JUDY: Yeah. I think Steve said you_were
19 supposed to talk to him in the morning.
20* TONY: Well, no, I told -- first of all, I
21 told Steven I wanted to talk to him tonight and I told
22 him I would be calling back for him.
23 JUDY:, You wanted to talk to Steve tonight?
24 TONY: Yes, I David -- I told him I wanted to
25 talk to David tonight, but I also wanted to talk to
: Steve tonight, too.
_-_.- . ~._-___. . .. _.
k.
JUDY: Well,
you were going to talk
TONY: Well,
that. That's not what
and tell him I'd like t
JUDY: Yeah,
TONY: Okay.
leap]
JUDY: When d
TONY:
JUDY: Tonigh
TONY: Oh, I
JUDY: Five?
TONY: Yeah.
JUDY: And yo
TONY: Probab
morning, so --
JUDY: Oh, re
TONY: Why?
JUDY: Well,
have fresh guys come on
them, you know.
TONY: Oh, I
JUDY: And so
too. I didn't know the
people in the morning.when dJ
23
how come he thinks you want --
to him in the morning? 4
I, I have no idea why he thinks
I told him. would you go back
o talk to him?
I'll tell him.
id you come on?
id I come on?
t, yeah.
ve been here since about five.
u're staying there till when?
ly till six, seven in the
ally?
because, I mean, you guys always
, but there, there's only two of
know that. .
Steve has a splitting headache,
t. And he wants to talk to
And if he's up all night, he's
Q-
i
c0_ 0,
not going to -24
TONY: Yeah, but I have a question I need to
ask Steven.
JUDY: Well, tell me what it is. I'll ask
him.
_ TONY: Well, I need to ask him, because I
talked to him earlier this evening and when I talked to
him I told him certain things I wanted him to do, and
he said he was going to do that. And I said we'll be
getting back to you tonight and he said okay.
JUDY: Yeah.~ The thing is, like I said, he
has a splitting headache. He's planning on talking to
people tomorrow and --
TONY= Does, does he have any answers for us?
Will you ask him that?
JUDY: If he has, if he has any
TONY: Yeah. Would you just go
he have any answers for us right now?
JUDY: Yeah. Okay. And then I
TONY: And it appears that, youanswers?
ask him does
know, that
David has been avoiding any contact with us.
JUDY: I thought you told me you just talked
to him?
TONY: I didn't talk to David, I talked to
Steven.
JUDY: Oh, YOU ~
. . ' '92.-
. 25
TONY: No, I have not talked to David. I've
been trying to talk to David and nothing -- .
JUDY: Our phone, our phone conversation is
taped and if you'll listen to it, you'll see that you
told me you talked to David. V
TONY: Perhaps. Maybe I did. If I did, I
didn't mean that. What I'm saying is --
JUDY: Okay. I thought you meant --
TONY: No. I've been trying to get hold of
David and I can't. But what I did do, I did talk to
Steven and -- earlier this evening and I told Steven
that I'd be getting back to him. Maybe I did say
David. If I did, I was mistaken.
JUDY: Yeah.
TONY: I have been trying to get David and he
obviously is avoiding contact with me. But what I --
JUDY:- I don't know about that.
TONY: Well, that's what it appears to me
anyway. But what I do -- I need to talk to David,
obviously, but I did talk to Steve tonight and I told
him that I would be getting back with him tonight. And
would you go ask Steven to tell me --
JUDY: Yeah.
TONY: -- tell me if he has any answers for
me tonight. I need the answers tonight.
JUDY: Okay. All right, hold on.
~
on 0!92§
26
l9aP]
JUDY: Yeah, I can't --
TONY: What did you do, go to sleep?
JUDY: No. I was trying to get Steve up.
He's snoring and --
TONY: He's snoring, huh?
JUDY: Yeah. I can't get him --
TONY: Can't get him up, huh?
JUDY: NO.
TONY: Okay. Well, I'm going to be calling
him first thing in the morning. '
JUDY: Yeah. That'd be better.
TONY: And let me ask you a question, two
questions I need answered.
JUDY: Um-hum.
TONY: Is David basically just trying to
avoid me? Is he in hiding or does he have a no -- do
not disturb sign on his door?
JUDY: That's funny. I don't think he's
trying to avoid you. I can't speak for him. He
doesn't have a do not disturb sign on his door, no.
TONY: But no one will get him up, though,
huh?
JUDY: Huh?
TONY: But no one will get him up?
JUDY: Well, the first time when I went and
0, 0 ,
- 27
talked to Steve he told me he had a -- that David had a
headache and, and that he had tried to get him up
already and he told him he didn't feel good. So --
TONY: Well, I know. Well, I understand that
he might not feel good, but I need to talk to him.
JUDY: Yeah. Maybe tomorrow.
TONY: Well, you're, you're not going to go
ask for him or go ask him?'
JUDY: I already did.
TONY: Oh, you did?
JUDY: His light's off and I'm not ~-
TONY: So, basically, we're not going to get
him tonight is what you're saying?
JUDY: I wouldn't -- I can't say that. I
don't know. You know, you can try.
TONY: Well, that's what I've been trying to
do. _
JUDY: Uh-huh. I don't know, you know, I'm
not a prophet.
TONY: well, I understand that. But, like I
say, I needed to talk to David and I needed to talk to
Steve. . _
JUDY: Yeah. I'll just give him the message
when I see him.
TONY: I need one, one question answered from
you.
I _
I !
28
» JUDY: Um-hum.
TONY: I want you to think this over real
carefully.
JUDY: Yeah.
TONY: Okay? Before you answer me.
JUDY: Okay.
TONY: Are you telling me that you're not
going to come out in the morning? Now, just think on
that real carefully.
JUDY: That was pretty obvious, wasn't it?
TONY: Yeah. But I want you to think of that
very carefully before you give me a direct answer now.
JUDY: Yeah, I already gave you a direct
answer.
TONY: WhiCh is?
JUDY: Okay, if God says I'm coming out, I'm
coming out. If he doesn't, I'm not.
TONY: Are you going to come out in the
morning?
JUDY: Pardon me?
TONY: Are you going to come_out in the
morning?
JUDY: You don't understand that, huh?
TONY: No, I understand it.
JUDY: Okay. So I can't say if I am or I'm
not because if God says I am, I am. And so I'm not
Q
c
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29
going to say --
IRBWGI -
you is --TONY: Well, see, that's, that's not a direct
JUDY: Okay. Well --
TONY: That's what I was trying to get from
that's why I said to answer -- to think about
it very carefully before you answer it.
question.
to David,
that says
dream.
you don'tJUDY: To me, that's a direct answer --
TONY: Well --
JUDY: -- because I believe in God.
TONY: But that's not a direct answer to the
That's maybe, maybe not.
JUDY: Yeah.
TONY: Does God speak to you?
JUDY: No, not directly.
TONY: So how will you know then?
JUDY: How will I know? Because if God talks
then maybe we'll all go out.
TONY: Well, do you think David is God?
JUDY: I said if God talks to him.
TONY: Hell --
JUDY: I know he opens the Seven Seals, so
an awful lot right there, more than you could
TONY: Okay. Well, so what you're saying is
have an answer, is what you're telling me.
L
K
.
10' 0 aQ __!
_ so
JUDY: I've been here for seven years and
I've learned a lot.
TONY: so what you're saying is you don't
have an answer for me.
JUDY: Pardon me?
TONY: So what you're saying is you do not
have an answer for me.
JUDY: I gave you an answer.
TONY: Well, that's not an answer to the.
question, it's an evasion of the question.
JUDY: Yeah. -
TONY: Is Steve asleep or, or awake with a
headache?
JUDY: Well, he was awake the first time I
went and talked to him, then I went back and he was
snoring.
TONY: So he didn't just -- he just didn't
want to come to the phone then?
JUDY: In his sleep? I didn't --
TONY: No. He was awake, you said, when you
first went to him.
JUDY: The first time, and -- well, he told
me he had a headache and that -- he said he already
told you that he was going to talk to you in the
morning.
TONY: No. Steve told me he was going to
.'_92 .!' ~ 31
talk to me this evening, because when I first earlier
' JUDY: - to him.
TONY: -- when I talked to him earlier, I
told him I needed some questions answered and he said
he would get the answers, and I said I will call you
back tonight. I said I will get the answers, I'll let
you get a couple hours of rest and then I'll call you
back, and I lived up to my word on that. I gave him a
couple hours of rest.
JUDY: Well, he told me that the last time he
talked to you he, he wasn't even thinking straight.
TONY: Oh, he wasn't thinking straight. He
told you that?
JUDY:
words, he just
sitting there,
TONY:
JUDY:
TONY:
it, one now? If
JUDY:
TONY:
JUDY:Not really.
said he was so
you know.
What time is
I guess when
So if I callHe didn't say those
tired he was just like
he getting up?
you call.
at -- let's see, what is
I call at three, he'll be up?
Three o'clock?
well you said when I call.
Laughs! well call in 10 minutes, you
know. I mesh Ybu said you were going to call him in
the morning. Three - I mean it's morning right now,
1
{
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- 32
but, I mean, I'm talking about the dawning of the
morning, you know?
' TONY: Okay, you won't wake David up, right?
JUDY: Not right now, because Steve already
told me earlier that he had a headache. So, I mean, V
the guy is, you know, has bullet wounds, so I'm not
going to go wake him up.
TONY: Well - ' I
JUDY: I mean, you haven't really told me
what you want to talk to him about.
TONY: No. I know -- I think we all know
what we want to talk about. We want to talk about
resolving this, and that's what I want to talk to him
about. '
JUDY: You already know -- I'll let you talk
to Steve now.
TONY: Pardon me?
JUDY: I mean, you, you've already been told
a lot.
TONY: I know. And it's not done anything.
Nothing has happened.
JUDY: Oh, yeah, lots has happened.
TONY: Hell, not to my satisfaction.
JUDY: Oh, I wanted to know, too, about
Livingston Fagin.
TONY: What about him?
92-wo_. 0,
33
JUDY: I wanted to know anything about him.
Where is he? How is he?
TONY: He's, he's --
JUDY: He hasn't
TONY: Well, and
and I -- excuse me, I told
we told Livingston to call
going to be a pawn for thecalled us.
that's -- I told David that
Steven. I told Steven that
in and he said he's not
government. And that's what
he said and he refused to do it, and we're not going to
-- right now he -- once --
JUDY: He refused to call in?
TDNY: He refused to call in. He refused to
call in. And as soon as he was, was brought in here,
he was given an attorney and he was asked to call in
prior to be given an attorney. He said he will not do
that, he's not a pawn for a government. He was given
an attorney. Once he's given an attorney, we cannot
approach him without his attorney's consent.
JUDY:' Oh.
TONY: That's by law and we're going to
respect -- you know, that's under the Constitution.
we're not going to abide by that.
JUDY: Well, what happened to him? I, I
heard that he got roughed up.
"TONY: He did not get roughed up, I assure
you. He did not get roughed up.
i
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-34
JUDY: What happened to him then?
TONY: Nothing. He was taken into custody.
That was it. When he came out, he was
everybody would be searched.
JUDY: But he didn't get mud
anything?
TONY: Well, he might've gotsearched, like
on him or
some mud on him,
on his pants, because it's muddy out there, and on the
shoes. I mean, you can't do that. We
carry him out.weren't going to
JUDY: Oh, I respect that, yeah. ~
TONY: No, he, he got some mud on his shoes
and on his pants, but that's the extent of it. I mean,
you can't help that. Our guys had mud
their shoes and --
JUDY: Oh, yeah.
TONY: So, I mean, you know,on -- all over
that's not
roughing anybody up, just to get mud on it.
JUDY: No.
TONY: And, but that was his
wanted, we wanted him to call in there
obviously we want to do one thing, and
this resolved. And if it felt that we
call in there it would do that, fine.
to do it. We can't -- we're not goingchoice. And we
because
that's to get
could.have him
Re did not want
to force anybody
to do it. We're not going to, you know, if somebody
Q-_
{
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Q92» :92.>-
. 35
says I'm not going to do it, then, you know, that's
their option. And now he has an attorney and we're
going to abide by that. We're going to respect that
because he has an attorney. We're going to abide by
that, as we would anybody's. I _
JUDY: Oh, I also wanted to know about the
Wendell kids. Where are they now?
TONY: Pardon me?
JUDY: The Wendell kids.
TONY: The Wendell kids?
JUDY: Um-hum.
TONY: I couldn't answer that right now.
They're -- you know, I, I have no idea. I'd have to go
through each and every one of these. I just, you know
JUDY: It was horrible when they were at the
house.
TONY: Well, you know, why do you ask that?
JUDY: I'm just curious. They're my friends.
TONY: Oh. Well, they're fine, I'll assure
you of that. I mean, everybody's going to be fine out
here, and I think you know that, Judy.
JUDY: Are they still there or -- what,
what's that?
I TONY: Pardon? No, they're not here. Why
don't you come out and we'll let you visit with them?
. ' !
" 3 6
JUDY: Why is the phone doing that right now?
TONY: It's the phone? The phone's not doing
that. Pardon? _
JUDY: That: your entertainment system --
TONY: I guess, yeah. But, Judy, you know --
JUDY: Who's in charge of that, YOU?
TONY: Pardon me?
JUDY: Who's in charge of that?
TONY: I have no idea. Not me.
JUDY: Okay. Yeah, I wanted to know where
they were, if they were still at the house or --
TONY: They're, they're fine. I have no idea
where they're at right at this moment, I really don't.
JUDY: But you know they're fine. Oh, that's
a joke.
TONY: You know they're going to be fine.
You know that as well as I do, Judy.
JUDY: Well, how do I, how do I know that?
TONY: No one's going to, no one's going to
be mistreated out here.
JUDY: They may have been released and been
in a car wreck. I mean, you know, they could be there.
I don't know where they are.
TONY: well, if, if they were in a car wreck
and somebody was injured and we would be notified of
that. But on a routine -- if everything's fine, we're
C
1
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O
I
92' /, _' !
3 7
not going to be --
JUDY: Hold on just a minute. I've got to
get something.
[sap]
JUDY: Talk in the morning then, all right?,
TONY: Who, who said that?
JUDY: This is Judy.
TONY: Oh, I know that, but, I mean, did
somebody tell you to say that?
JUDY: No, I mean, I'm just telling you that
from before. I had to go get something myself right
now. 4
TONY: You have to go. So you're not going
to come out, though?
JUDY: Hey, I said, you know, I mean --
TONY: I know what you said.
JUDY: David's waiting on God and who knows?
God may say let's go tomorrow, you know. I don't know.
If he does, I'm out of here.
TONY: Well, then why don't you pray during
the night to get an answer?
JUDY: I pray every day.
TONY: Okay, why don't you pray for an answer
tonight? we need an answer in the morning.
JUDY: All right, you've got it. I'll pray
right now.
r
I
L
j
92-
'~
92..- .._:.____.._..___-_._. .__-.._., _
I ~ QI ~ 92,
v v
TONY: Okay.
JUDY: Okay.
TONY : All tight .
JUDY: All right . GOOdnight . H
End of Tape #165.! l V