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.4U¢S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO 8 FIREARMS
TAPE #72
3/6/93
9:42 P.H. - 10:28 P.M.
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Tape 72!
JOHN: - reveal himself to all that were
there to hear.
DAVID: N0.
JOHN: What?
DAVID: No, he didn't.
JOHN: Why, why do you say that?
DAVID: It says neither his brethren believed
on him.
JOHN: It doesn't -- I don't say that they
believed in him. I said but he was there --
DAVID: He gave many infallible proofs --
JOHN: To reveal.
DAVID: It says though he gave many
infallible proofs, yet they believed not on him. He
could become convincing.
JOHN: That, that doesn't mean he's not
giving them the opportunity to listen and the
opportunity --
DAVID: Exactly. Exactly.
JOHN: - to hear.
DAVID: Well, that's what I'm doing.
JOHN: And, and you're saying no, he didn't.
DAVID: I am saying, clearly, as the record
records, this is some homework for you, Matthew, Hark,
Luke, and John. Look and see.
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JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: You've got a good mind. Search the
scriptures.
Ringing sound.!
DAVID: So, it says here thou hast put
gladness in my heart more than a time their corn and
wine were increased. I'll both lay me down in peace
and sleep, for thou, Lord, only makes me to dwell in
safety. So, I'm waiting for this, waiting on my
father's next answer.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: You know, I'm resting quite well now,
okay? Now, let's turn here to Psalms 18 and find out
how this is going to work out. Okay? This is what I'm
trying to keep from happening to, to you. I mean, I
call you brethren, you know. These, these young ATP
agents who lost their life out of this, if you play
your cards right they'll be back shortly. Promised. I
know you can't believe that right now.
JOHN: That's like you're, you're coming out
immediately. What does shortly mean?
DAVID: Chuckling.! Okay, John.
JOHN: Huh? A matter of --
DAVID: Don't, don't --
JOHN: - semantics here?
DAVID: - don't keep poking. Let's learn
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some stuff. Now, let's hear God. This is God's word.
Don't worry about me. I'm just a fool.
the Lord.JOHN: No, you just told me the Lo-- you're
DAVID: Did I tell you the Lord or did God
say no one can reveal the seals but the lamb?
not?
Psalms 45JOHN: You told me you are the Lord, did you
DAVID: I did say that --
JOHN: Oh, yes.
DAVID: -- hoping you would see that in the
JOHN: Well, we're up to 18 right now.
DAVID: Okay. Now, I love the Lord. Why?
He's my what? Strength. The Lord is my rock, my
fortress, my deliverer, my God, my strength in whom I
will trust, my buckler and the horn of my salvation, my
high tower. People keep wondering how I knew you'all
guys were
call uponcoming. Well, I got a high tower, right?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: But not the one you think. I will
the Lord --
JOHN: Well, you have two high towers.
DAVID: Well -
JOHN: Right?
DAVID: Not the one --
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JOHN: The physical one and the one that
isn't. '
DAVID: The one who sees all things before
they happen.
JOHN: The spiritual one.
DAVID: Exactly. I will call upon the Lord
who is worthy to be praised. So shall I be saved from
mine enemies. The sorrows
floods of ungodly men made
hell can pass me about and
prevented me, prevented meof death can pass me and the
me afraid. The sorrows of
the snares of death
from what? Well, what am I
trying to do? I'm trying to teach something, aren't I.
In my distress I call upon the Lord and cried unto my
God. He heard my voice out of his temple. Do you know
what that temple is? It's a long ways off but it's
very close by. And my ears, his cry came before him
even to his ears.
JOHN: Back up a
DAVID: Go aheadlittle there.
JOHN: The temple.
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JOHN: In my distress called upon the Lord
and cried unto my God and he heard my voice -- out of
his temple?
DAVID: Uh-huh.
now --That's where he's at right
.4JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: -- sitting on the throne.
JOHN:
DAVID: Same as in Psalms 2. He that sitteth
in heaven shall laugh. I mean, he's laughing right nowAll right.
at ya'll and I'm --
JOHN: He's laughing at who?
DAVID: He's laughing at ya'll.
JOHN: Why do you say that?
DAVID: Because --
JOHN:
DAVID: Well, only if you believe his word,
for he who is of God heareth God's word. Now --
JOHN:
and believe me when I tell you I believe in, in the
Lord?
DAVID: Well, you believe in what you know of
the Lord.
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
commandments?
JOHN:We're his children too, aren't we?
Now, do you believe -- do you think
And in salvation?
But. see, you believe --
And in the resurrection?
You -- okay. You believe --
And in the Ten Commandments?
Well, what about the other
Do you believe in the Ten
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Commandments?
DAVID: Oh, yes, I do. Now, with God --
JOHN: All of them?
DAVID: Yes, I do. When God says thou shalt
not kill, he meant Israel. Of course, the Lord
commanded Israel to destroy the heathen, didn't he?
JOHN: He meant Israel?
DAVID: Didn't he?
JOHN: He, he --
DAVID: Are you telling me that Moses and
Israel did not kill the heathen?
JOHN: Well, sure.
DAVID: Okay. So, exactly, you agree then --
JOHN: Well, when he said thou shalt not
kill, he --
DAVID: ' He --
JOHN: -- means thou shalt not kill, doesn't
he?
DAVID: He - well, then why did he command
to offer the sacrifices then? You have to interpret
what God tells you when God tells you as God tells you.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: Now, God did not talk to you. He
spake to Hoses indiscernible! he spake to Israel.
Now, today --
JOHN: Well, he speaks to me. When I go to
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church, he speaks to me a little closer, doesn't he?
DAVID: I don't think so.
JOHN: What - how can you say that?
DAVID: Well, because you're just - do you
want to learn these Psalms or do you want to scoff?
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: I'm not scoffing you.
DAVID: In my distress I called upon the Lord
and cried unto my God. He heard me at - my voice out
of his temple. My cry came before me into his ears.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Then the, then the earth shook and
trembled. You ever heard of the sixth seal? The
foundations all through the hills were moved and were
shaken because he was wroth. Smoke out of his nostrils
and fire out of his mouth devoured. Coals were kindled
by it. He bowed the heavens also and came down and
darkness was under his feet. He rode upon a cherub.
See, the cherubs a masculine angel. Read Ezekiel when
you get a chance. And did fly - he did fly upon the
wings of the wind. He made darkness his secret place,
his pavilion. Round about him were dark waters and big
clouds of the skies. And the brightest as before him
as thick clouds passed, hailstones and coals of fire.
The Lord also thundered in the heavens and the highest
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gave his voice. Hailstones and coals of fire. How did
he talk to my enemies? Very physically.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Yeah, he sent out his arrows and
scattered them and he shut out lightning that
discomfited them. And the channels of the waters were
seen and the foundations of the world were discovered
it by rebuke at the blast of the breath of my nostrils.
He sent me from above. He took me. He drew me out of
many waters. He delivered me from my strong enemy and
from them which hated me, for they were too many for
me. Oh, my. There's too many, huh? They prevented me
the day of my calamity. Do you know what a calamity
is?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: What we're involved in now, isn't it?
JOHN: Yeah, it sure is.
DAVID: But the Lord was my stay. That's why
in Psalms 2 it says yet have I set my king upon my Holy
Hill of Zion. He brought me forth also onto a large
place, which is back to the sea of glass. He delivered
me because he delighted in me. The Lord rewarded me
according to my righteousness, according to the
cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me. I have
kept the ways of the Lord and have not wickedly
departed from my God, for all these judgments, all
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seven seals were before me, and has not put away his
statutes from me. I was also right before him and I
kept myself from mine inequity. You see, in one of
those judgments God requires me to give up something,
and I'll explain that later. Therefore, the Lord
recompensed me according to my righteousness, according
to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight. Now --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: -- with the merciful. Thou wilt show
thyself merciful. Are you being merciful to me, John?
JOHN: I sure am.
DAVID: God's going to be merciful with you
then.
JOHN: Don't you think I am?
DAVID: So far. As an upright man thou wilt
show thyself --
JOHN: Are you going to be merciful to me?
DAVID: well, if you play your cards right
I'm -- y
JOHN: Oh, no, no, no. Are you going to be
merciful?
DAVID: I'm being merciful now and I'll
remain to be merciful. But you --
JOHN: You know, because, basically, you're
saying when, when you're giving your opinion you're
instructing and when I say something to you you accuse
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me of scoffing, and I'm not doing that.
DAVID: No, no.
JOHN: Do you think I'm doing that?
DAVID: Do you see these words here?
JOHN: Huh? Answer me. Do you think I'm
scoffing you?
DAVID: I know that you're scoffing.
JOHN: Ho. I'm really not. I'm trying to
understand what you have to say.
DAVID: With the merciful thou wilt show
thyself merciful. Be merciful, John. That's what I'm
trying to say.
JOHN: Well, I think I am.
DAVID: with an upright man thou wilt show
thyself upright. with the pure thou wilt show thyself
pure. And with the forward, those who interrupt and
those who aren't learning, listening to learn, thou
wilt show thyself forward. For thou wilt save the
afflicted people. Wefre being afflicted right now,
John, but thou wilt bring down high looks. Arrogancy
seeks to be humbled. Why? For thou wilt light my
candle. There are seven candles where I come from and
I know clearly what light they shine. The Lord my God
will light in my darkness --
JOHN: David, do you believe some afflictions
can be brought upon people by their, their own actions,
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though?
DAVID: Oh, definitely. I mean, the actions
of Christ got nothing but affliction upon him two
thousand years ago.
JOHN: Sure. Sure.
DAVID: But his actions were justified and
preordained by God.
JOHN: How long did it take people to
understand that?
DAVID: Well, two thousand years they haven't
JOHN: Hey --
DAVID: -- understood yet, have they?
JOHN: Many haven't. Many haven't.
DAVID: Some even today don't understand.
For by thee have I run to a truth. Now, this is what's
fixing to happen. And by my God have I leaped over a
wall. For God, his way is perfect. You know those
seven seals?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: The word of the Lord is tried. You
need to learn those seals, John. He's a buckler to all
those that trust in him, and a buckler is someone that
prepares you for war. For who is God save the Lord and
who is a Rock save our God? It is God that girdeth me
with strength and maketh my way perfect. He maketh my
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feet like hind's feet. Now, here's the verse we need
to look at. He setteth me upon my high places. He
teacheth my hands to war so that a bow of steel is
broken in my arms. Thou hast given me the shield of
thy salvation and thy right hand is holding me up and
thy gentleness hath made me great. Thus the Lord has
made steps under me that my feet did not slip. I have
pursued mine enemies and overtaken them, neither did I
turn again till they were consumed. I have wounded
them that they were not able to rise. They are fallen
under my feet. Well, thou hast girded me with strength
unto the battle. Thou subdued under me those that rose
up against me. Thou hast also given me the necks of
mine enemies that I might destroy them that hate me.
They cried, but there was none to save them. Even to
the Lord, but he answered them not. Then that I beat
them small as the dust before the wind. I did cast
them out of the dirt in the street. Thou hast
delivered me from the strivings of the people. Thou
hast made me the head of the heathen. Sometimes
through violence you have to teach people a lesson,
John. You know that.
JOHN: Are, are you trying to tell me
something here, David?
DAVID: Is God telling you something through
this prophecy? Do you know who has the key of David?
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Do you know who has opened the Psalm up to you
forewarning you of the events that I am trying to keep
you from fulfilling?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: People whom I have not known shall
serve me. Not everybody knows me. But they're fixing
to know me. But I wish we could do it the first way.
As soon as they hear of me they shall obey me and --
JOHN: Why do you say you wish we could do it
the first --
DAVID: Well --
JOHN: - way?
DAVID: Let me keep explaining.
JOHN: What, what makes you think we can't?
DAVID: Well, because you'all jumped in on
top of me. Let me explain. The stranger shall submit
themselves unto L3. The stranger shall fade away and
be afraid of their close places. The Lord liveth and
blessed be my rock. pet the God of my salvation be
exalted. It is God that avengeth me and subdueth the
people unto me. Save me from mine enemies. Yea, thou
liftest me up above those that rise up against me.
Thus, deliver me from the violent man. Therefore will
I give thanks unto thee, O Lord, among the heathen and
sing praises unto thy name. Great deliverance giveth
he unto his king and showeth mercy unto his anointed,
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to David and to his seed forever more. Now, these
events of the sun and the stars being darkened of the
sixth seal, we're right now in the fifth seal. In the
times that I have - as it says in the Psalms, my times
are in my hand -- I have an allotted amount of time to
teach the people who wish to know the seals. And as we
turn from the fourth and go into the fifth seal, no
longer is the beast assist the opening of the fifth,
sixth, and seventh seal. Why?
JOHN: No longer is what? I'm sorry.
DAVID: Well, you see, when the first four
seals are opened in heaven, one of the beasts they come
and see. Now, if you understood the mystery of the
beasts, then you would understand the story of a great
king called Nebekenezer --
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: -- and how God has foretold him of
the rise and fall of empires, how that in the time of
the end these empires be brought unto a judgment.
well, we are fulfilling a prophecy. And the world who
knows it not, naturally it's going to scoff. Naturally
it's going to make decisions contrary to the will of
God. Now, how can they know what they're doing if the
words of truth are hid from them? Well, how come they
haven't been studying the scriptures? All of this time
has been given. At least the past five hundred years.
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Especially America. How come men having known that
when there's time no longer a mystery of God will be
finished. Has God declared to his servants, the
prophets? How come your church and your ministries
didn't forewarn you of these things? Let's turn to the
Book of Nahum now. This is more meaty. But it'll
explain something about your little chariots and stuff
out here. The prophets are considered mysteries to
many because when the prophets wrote of the events,
they had to describe things they saw in the future by
things that they were familiar with in their day. Do
you understand that statement, John?.
JOHN: Oh, I'm trying to find the Book of
Nahum. Hang on.
DAVID: okey-doke.
JOHN:' Probably going the wrong direction.
DAVID: Okay. You keep going to the right
towards the end of the book. It's, it's in the
prophetic writings. .You got Ezekiel, Daniel --
JOHN: Gotch ya.
DAVID: It's after Daniel.
JOHN: Okay. Gotch ya.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: Go ahead. I'm sorry. I didn't -- I
was trying to find this and you were saying something.
It's like me trying to chew gum and walk. Give me a
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break.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: Go ahead. I'm at the Book of Nahum.
And you were saying something.
DAVID: Okay. I'm trying to find it myself.
Anyway, the book starts off with God as jealous, right?
JOHN: Yes.
DAVID: God is furious. The Lord revengeth,
right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: Did you find it?
DAVID: Yeah. I've got it.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: Because I usually just I just
usually quote these books, because I - my book, my
book is not like your books either. So, anyway. This
is the vision of Nahum, burden of Nineveh. God is
jealous, the Lord revengeth. The Lord revengeth and is
furious. Now, why would God be jealous for? Remember,
every thought of God harmonizes with every thought of
God. Remember in Psalms 45 God said he thought his son
was the fairest of men? Remember that?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Maybe some may not think that. But,
anyway, God being jealous, the Lord revengeth, the Lord
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of vision is furious. The Lord will take vengeance on
his adversaries. Remember in Psalms 2 the heathen
raged and they go against God's word? And he said to
his anointed let's break his bands of son? And they
don't want those seals, do they?
JOHN: Hmm.
DAVID: He reserveth wrath for his enemies.
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, that will
not at all acquit the wicked. Okay? The Lord hath his
way in the whirlwind. Remember Psalms 18?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: And the storm and the clouds are the
dust of his feet. Remember Psalms 18? We just read
it, didn't we? He rebuketh the sea and maketh it dry
and dries up all the rivers. Bashan languisheth and
Carmel and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. The
mountains quake in him and the hills melt. The earth
is burned at his presence. Yea, the world and all they
that dwell therein. Who can stand before his
indignation? who can abide of the fierceness of his
anger? His fury is poured out like fire and the rocks
are thrown down by him. A person you don't want to get
on the wrong side of, right?
JOHN: Yep.
DAVID: But the Lord is good though, John.
Even though he's - can get angry, he is good. A
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stronghold in the day of trouble. He knoweth them that
trust in him. You know, you trust in the father, don't
you? You trust in his word, don't you? You know that
the lamb is going to come and reveal the seals, don't
you? But with an overrunning flood he will make an
utter end of the place thereof. Darkness shall pursue
his enemies. Now, what do you imagine against the
Lord? He will make an utter end. Affliction shall not
rise up a second time. Huh? Second time. Remember
two thousand years ago?
JOHN: How many times have affliction risen
up?
DAVID: Now, remember --
JOHN: You, you were saying it's only risen
one time. You --
DAVID: Wait a minute.
JOHN: Right?
DAVID: Wait a minute. This affliction
revolves around with verse 15. Behold up on the
mountain the feet of him that bringeth good tidings.
Okay? This affliction deals with God being jealous and
the Lord revenging. He knows, and the trust in him.
This has something to do with God and the seven seals,
a message for the latter days. watch and I'll show
you. Now, those whose thoughts, according to Psalms 2,
are contrary to God's thoughts, they imagine an evil
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against the Lord. He'll make an utter end. Affliction
shall not rise up again the second time. Two thousand
years ago when Christ came the first time, did they not
imagine evil against the Lord? Did they not choose to
crucify him?
JOHN: Well, we all know what happened.
DAVID: Okay. And affliction did rise up,
didn't it? But we have a promise not the second time.
For while they be thrown together as thorns -- you know
the wicked are a bunch of thorns, right? And while
they are drunken as drunkards, these people are out of
their minds. They shall be devoured as stubble fully
dried. They're going to be burned. There is one come
out of thee - and as I'm talking to you right now,
this is happening -- that imagineth evil against the
Lord, a wicked counsellor. Thus sayeth the Lord,
though they be quiet and likewise many I mean,
outside they're very quiet out here, aren't they? But
there's many of them,.isn't there? Yeah, there's a lot
of them. Yet thus shall they be cut down when he shall
pass through. Hey, my father's coming to pay a visit.
I know you don't believe that yet, but let's keep
learning and maybe you might. Though I've afflicted
thee, I will afflict thee no more. Talking about us
right here. For now will I break his yoke from off
thee and I will burst thy bonds asunder. see, y'all
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have got this yoke on me right now. You know, you --
JOHN: No, no, no.
DAVID: -- call me --
JOHN: -- no.
DAVID: -- you call me the -- '
JOHN: That's your interpretation of it.
DAVID: Well, now, exactly. Let me explain
why. Let's finish the book before we make our opinions
out. It says here, this is a conversation between
somebody and somebody. It's a situation of somebody
having a yoke on somebody else and someone says I'm
going to break thy bonds asunder and I'm going to
deliver you. And the Lord hath given a commandment --
JOHN: Wait. Why do you say we have a yoke
on you? Huh?
DAVID: Look, you're being judged by my law
right now and you're not afraid. And you're telling me
to come out and be judged by your law. And I'm trying
to tell you that I would more than love to be judged by
your law.
JOHN: But it's your law, too.
DAVID: No.
JOHN: Yes, it is.
DAVID: See, my law comes from a God above
this world. You don't understand yet, John.
JOHN: Well, sure I understand. I understand
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that we're all going to be judged by our actions.
We're going to be --
DAVID: Exactly. Right now.
JOHN: -- judged by our deeds.
DAVID: Your case -- every thought of your
nind is being judged right now.
_ JOHN: Well, that's for --
DAVID: In regards --
JOHN: - everyone.
DAVID: -- in re-- in regards to the way
you're --
JOHN: That's --
DAVID: -- dealing with this truth.
JOHN: That, that -- you're, you're trying to
say, you know, you think that I'm, I'm trying to be
facetious about it or something. I'm not.
DAVID: No, I'm not.
JOHN: I'm, I'm being serious.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: I'm trying to be. And we will all be
judged --
DAVID: At the judgment --
JOHN: -- not only by the Lord, right? will
we? Don't you believe that?
DAVID: How does Christ judge? He reveals
truth. I've come to give you my reward. Do you want
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the knowledge that I have ahead of time? You want to
escape - Unidentified voices in background not
discernible.! from making a wrong step --
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: - a wrong decision?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Okay. The Lord hath given a
commandment concerning thee that no more thy name be
sown out of the house of thy gods. I will cut off the
graven image of the molten images. I will make thy
grave for thou are vile. Up on the mountains - behold
up on the mountains the phoenix hand that bringeth good
tides that publisheth peace. O Judah, keep thy solemn
feast. Perform thy vows, for the wicked shall no more
pass through these, early cut off. He that dasheth in
pieces has come up before thy face. Okay. Here you
guys are. want to dash us to pieces, right?
JOHN: No. How many times did I tell you
not? »
DAVID: Okay. But you already started,
though.
JOHN: But you don't listen to me, do you?
DAVID: You already started. You came in
through the gate just like the prophet says. You came
JOHN: No. What I said --
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DAVID: -- in through the gate --
JOHN: -- is what happened happened and we
all regret --
DAVID: And you can --
JOHN: -- what happened. '
DAVID: -- feel. Now, watch. This will
explain exactly the very moves you made already.
JOHN: Let, let me ask you something and then
continue, okay?
DAVID: Go ahead.
JOHN: Let me just ask you something. Are
you telling me - and, and I just want you to clarify
it. That's all.
DAVID: Go ahead.
JOHN: Are you telling me that you are not
answerable to the constitution of the United States and
the laws of the lands of the United States?
DAVID: I am answerable to the laws as far as
you can see, but I'm also --
JOHN: No, no. You're not answering the
question.
DAVID: Yes, I am.
JOHN: Are you answerable only to the law of
God or are you answerable to the Constitution of the
United States?
DAVID: United States.
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JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: And to God's law.
JOHN: But you're not willing to be judged by
that law.
DAVID: Yes, I am. I told you, I'm ready to
cone.
JOHN: But you said I have this yoke around
you.
DAVID: Well, what hap--
JOHN: And I'm telling you that you can walk
out that door any time you want. However, you have
told me that you're waiting to hear the word, and I'm
not arguing with, with you about that.
DAVID: Well, I appreciate that. It shows
you're being merciful.
JOHN: Well, it shows that I believe you
telling me what you believe. I don't necessarily have
to believe it, but I believe you believe it.
DAVID: Okay. Fine. Well, here's what I
believe. He that dasheth in pieces has come up before
thy face. Keep the munition. What's munition?
JOHN: Well, you and I both know what that
is.
DAVID: It's weapons, isn't it?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: watch the way.
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JOHN: Where are you? Where are you? What
paragraph?
DAVID: We're in Chapter 2, verse 1.
JOHN: Yeah. I'm in 2.
DAVID: Okay. watch the way. What does that
mean? Hake thy loins strong. Fortify thy power
mightily, for the Lord will turn away the exodusy of
Jacob, that's exodus of Israel. In other words, God's
people in this prophecy don't look so hot, do they?
The emptiers have emptied them out and marred their
vine branches. The shield of the mighty men is made
red. The valiant men are in scarlet. The chariots
shall be with flaming torches in the day of his
preparation. Huh. The fir tree shall be terribly
shaken.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: The chariots shall rage in the
streets. They shall jostle one against another in the
broad waves. They shall seem like torches. They shall
run like the lightning. Roooor, Roooor siren sound!
-- is you heard all night long out here. Han, they're
last, you know? They get up and go, don't they?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: Now, y'all lost the first round.
JOHN: No. We all lost the first round.
DAVID: Well, not really, because --
.427
JOHN: Yes, we did.
DAVID: Let me explain.
JOHN: You don't think so?
DAVID: Let me explain. If those young men's
soul was not right with God according to the knowledge
they had?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: They've lost forever. Now, if their
soul was right, then they won. That's what I'm saying.
But now what happens is, it says, he shall recount his
worthies. In other words, they step back and they re-
enfortify sic!. Okay?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: And that's what y'all have done.
You've got a lot more --
JOHN: That's what we have done.
DAVID: Yeah. If you --
JOHN: Not you'all. You have done, we have
done. _
DAVID: No, no, no. We already, we already
know how many we got. Y'all went and got
reinforcements. They shall stumble on the --
JOHN: You're not fortified?
DAVID: Huh?
JOHN: You're not fortified?
DAVID: We're fortified.
...428
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: But, but you went --
JOHN: But is it necessary?
DAVID: Well, you see, the thing of it is
it's only necessary -- ,
JOHN: I mean, from what you're reading and
from what you're telling me --
DAVID: Let's repeat. Okay?
JOHN: And, and I'm not going to, I'm not
going to argue. Your interpretation is your
interpretation. All right?
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: But by what you were reading to me in
your interpretation --
DAVID: Do you believe --
JOHN: -- I should go tell, tell all the
ministers and all the rabbis and all the others here in
Waco that they'd better start fortifying their
churches, right? ~
DAVID: That's not who the prophecy is
addressed to.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: Remember, who only can reveal the
book?
JOHN: But the question is are you the Lord?
Are you Christ? Are you Cyrus? Are you David? Are
92
.4you the lamb? who are you?
DAVID: when the prophecy --
JOHN: Right now who are you?29
DAVID: I'm one trying to show you the seven
seals. Now, go --
JOHN: But
DAVID: --
JOHN: who
DAVID: If
the book to the lamb
JOHN: YesI
who did you tell me you were?
go learn what that means.
did you tell me you were?
God sits on the throne, if he
DAVID: You know who I am. And you know
I claim that I am.gave
who
JOHN: And you claim that you're the Lord.
DAVID: I am Christ.
JOHN: Well, you didn't say that. You said
you claimed to be the Lord.
DAVID: Christ is the same as the Lord. King
of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Prince of the kings of
the earth. Yep. what can I say? Shall I lie? No, I
will not lie. And, as I said before, my father sits on
a throne and he said to wait. And you're being judged,
John.
JOHN: Aren't we all?
DAVID: I've already been judged. I already
got the book. I have already been judged. Did you
..-e30
know that?
JOHN: What about those people in there with
you? Have they been judged?
DAVID: They accept my judgment, because in
my judgment I don't condemn any. I give - '
JOHN: You don't what?
DAVID: people the truth and the truth
will set them free.
JOHN: You don't condemn anyone?
DAVID: None. The condemnation comes when
men reject the truth. You see, God sent not his Son to
the world to condemn the world. Never has.
JOHN: Well, well, from my questioning you,
you're probably in your mind saying now, you know, I'm
rejecting the truth.
DAVID: I didn't say that, Jim. I'm saying
JOHN: JOhn.
DAVID: let's reason to- John -- I'm
saying we're reasoning together.
JOHN: I hope so.
DAVID: Exactly. I mean, you've got to,
you've got to tight with us. It, it would be crazy for
you to, to just begin starting oft this procedure and
saying, oh, yeah, man, when the guy really opens it up,
it's like he knows what he's talking about, like he's
~...,431
the Lord.
JOHN: But you're --
DAVID: Don't be a fool.
JOHN: -- you're saying that you're Christ.
Did Christ run from his accusers or, or did he have a
confrontation with his accusers and was he judged by
his accusers?
DAVID: He was judged by his accusers.
JOHN: But you're not willing to be judged by
the law --
DAVID: I did --
JOHN: -- of the land?
DAVID: -- not say that. Stop putting words
in my mouth.
JOHN: Well, you said you were going to
answer to another law.
DAVID: I am answering to one and both of the
laws. See, for your lack of knowledge of the
prophecies, for your lack of knowledge of the truth --
JOHN: Yes?
DAVID: -- you're making all these statements
based upon what you perceive.
JOHN: No. It's what you told me.
DAVID: Anyway, let's, let's look --
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID: - at this.
~..432
JOHN: You - I mean, did you tell me or
didn't you?
DAVID: I told you --
JOHN: That you didn't have to answer to the
law of the land, that you only -- -
DAVID: I said --
JOHN: - answered to a higher law.
DAVID: Okay. For instance, right now --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: - here's where we're at. I told you
I was going to come out and be judged by your law.
That's what I --
JOHN: And you said that you were coming out
immediately.
DAVID: Okay. I said I was coming out
immediately.
JOHN: Yes.
DAVID: And then I said --
JOHN: You couldn't.
DAVID: - I couldn't. Now, I also said two
thousand years ago I'm coming soon.
JOHN: Oh, you did?
DAVID: Didn't I? Read the gospels. But my
father said no. Now, fear God, don't fear me. And
when you learn to fear God and learn that his word is
the truth --
..-133
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- then you can put your trust in me.
I will show you the words of God. Don't worry about
me.
JOHN: David --
DAVID: Worry about your --
JOHN: Was Christ armed, David?
DAVID: with two swords.
JOHN: Was Christ armed?
DAVID: with two swords.
JOHN: What did he do with his two swords?
DAVID: He told his brethren --
JOHN: Did he hurt anybody with them? Did
he --
DAVID: Not, not yet.
JOHN: -- harm any one with them?
DAVID: Not yet.
JOHN: But did he?
DAVID: He destroyed -- he destroys -- he
destroyed indiscernible! --
JOHN: We do -- we know what he did to the
money changers and to the others, but did he harm
anyone with his two swords?
DAVID: Who do you think -- this -- look. Do
you want to learn this or not, John?
JOHN: Just trying to see where you're coming
~4134
from, David. I'm trying.
DAVID: Psalms 45 is the first seal. The
lamb is going to destroy his enemies. Yes or no?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: All right.
JOHN: So, according to Psalm 45, yes.
DAVID: According to Psalms 45, the first
seal, which must be hereafter. Now, let me tell you
something. I came into this world in 1959 butt naked.
JOHN: Didn't we all?
DAVID: Yes.
JOHN: We'll go out that way too.
DAVID: I came through your system and I
learned your laws and I abided by all of your laws. I
kept all of your laws. And in 1985 --
JOHN: Wait, wait a minute. You kept all of
the laws?
DAVID: All of the laws.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: In 1985, when I was in Israel, I
received additional laws. Okay? And I'm trying to
explain to you in all honesty and in all soberness,
it's time to tear God and give glory to him for the
hour of his judgment is come. This will bring the fall
of contusion. That's what I'm trying to explain to
you. He that dasheth in pieces has come up before thy
35
tace. God is speaking to somebody. God says to that
somebody keep the munition. Watch the way. Make thy
loins strong. Fortify thy power mightily. The Lord
had turned away the exodusy of Jacob. The people of
God in this prophecy are not very - they don't look
very good. As the exodusy of Is-- for the, for the
emptiers have emptied them out and marred their vine
branches. These people look in a bad situation. The
shield of the mighty men is made red in this event.
The valiant men are in scarlet. The chariots shall be
with flaming torches in the day of his preparation.
This belligerent power, the one who dashes in pieces,
Daniel will tell you who that power is. And it says it
is the chariots will have flaming torches on them. Fir
trees shall be terribly shaken. These chariots, Nahum
says, will rage in the streets. They shall jostle one
against another in broad waves. They'll seem like
torches. They'll run like the lightnings. They're
pretty fast, aren't they?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: They're tanks, John. He shall
recount his worthies. You know, they come together to
get more numbers, to get refortified?
JOHN: That's an interpretation that they're
tanks, isn't it?
DAVID: He recounts --
36
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: He shall recount, meaning he
renumbers his worthies. They shall stumble in their
walk though. By their moving forward, they get in
trouble. -
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: They shall make haste to the wall
thereof and the defense shall be prepared, and the
gates of the rivers shall be opened and the palace
shall be dissolved. Now, we're getting to the real
weird aspect. And Hazab shall be led away captive.
she shall be brought up and her maids shall lead her as
with the voice of doves. Hooo, hooo, hooo, hoh.
Tabern phonetic! upon their breasts. But Nineveh is
of old, like a pool of water, stagnant. And they shall
flee away. Stand, stand, shall they cry, but none
shall look back. Someone at that point is told to take
ye the spoil of silver. Take the spoil of gold, for
there's none end of the store and the glory out of all
the pleasant furniture. She's empty, void and waste,
the heart melted, the, the knees smite together, and
such pain is in all loins and all faces of them shall
get a blackness. Where is the dwelling of the lions --
these tough guys, huh? The feeding place of the young
lions - they thought their sons were going to rule,
huh? where is the lion? Even the old lion walked, and
37
the lion's weapon, n mac them afraid. Man, they
thought they were so ,Jwerful, didn't they? The an
did tear in pieces enough for his whelps and strangled
for his lioness and filled his holes with prey and his
dens with raven. I understand. It's just a job to
keep yourself going, right? All these guys out here
are just making a living, aren't they? Beh ld I'm
against thee, said the Lord of hosts. And I will burn
her chariots in the smoke and the sword shall devour
her young lions. And I will cut off thy prey from the
earth and the voice of thy messengers shall be no more
heard. That's what you're doing. You're giving me a
message, right? We've had --
JOHN: I think you --
DAVID: - several of them.
JOHN: I think you're trying to give me a
message, aren't you, David?
DAVID: W="1, I'm saying y'all keep
negotiating with us and stuff. But woe to the bloody
city.
JOHN: No. I'm trying to reason with you and
trying to be rationale with you.
DXVID: And I'm not being rationale with you,
correct?
8 N: You're really not, are you?
DAVID: You don't believe this prophecy, do
..-438
you?
JOHN: I --
DAVID: You don't believe --
JOHN: -- believe that --
DAVID: -- you've got --
JOHN: -- I believe that --
DAVID: -- tanks out there, did you?
JOHN: -- you believe --
DAVID: You don't believe you've got --
JOHN: -- what you're telling me.
DAVID: Why would you have tanks out there?
JOHN: To protect our people from your
weapons.
DAVID: From our weapons?
JOHN: From your weapons. Your admitted
weapons.
DAVID: Huh. Well, you know the weapon I
haven't admitted is the greater and above all the I
weapons you could ever know of?
JOHN: You've admitted that one.
DAVID: God.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, didn't you just tell me
you're the Lord?
DAVID: who is this bloody city in Chapter 3?
JOHN: Babylon.
DAVID: It's all full of lies and robbery and
as-439
the prey departeth not. If yours had to go to work in
a system like this, the noise of a whip, those rattling
wheels, prancing horses, and jumping chariots. Horses
lifted up both the bright sword and the glittering
spear, and there's no - there's a multitude of slaying
and a great number of carcasses. There's none end of
their corpses. They stumble upon their corpses,
because of the multitude of the hoard under the well-
favored harlot. who is that harlot? You know.
Babylon, the mistress of witchcrafts that sells nations
to her whoredom and families to her witchcrafts?
Behold, I'm against thee, sayeth the Lord of Hosts.
That's the father. And I will discover thy skirts upon
thy face and I will show the nations thy nakedness and
the kingdoms thy shame. I will cast abominable filth
upon thee and make thee vile. I will set thee in the
gazing stocks. Hell, Revelation 18 says, shall come to
pass that all they that look upon thee shall flee from
thee and say: Nineveh is laid waste. who bemoan her?
When shall I see comforters for thee? Art thou better
than populace No phonetic!? There's a city No --
called No, an ancient city, very populated, that was
situated among the rivers that had the waters round
about it whose rampart was the sea and her wall was
from the sea. No, it was impregnable, very strong
place. Ethiopia and Egypt were their strength and it
...¢40
was intinite._ Put and Laban were thy helpers, yet was
she carried away. She went into captivity. Her young
children also were dashed in pieces at the top of the
streets and they cast lots for their honorable men and
all their great men were bound in chains. I mean, you
know, nations can be overthrown, man. Thou also shall
be drunken. You know --
JOHN: Are you try-- are you trying to tell
me something?
DAVID: I'm trying to say that God says to
somebody that as ancient empires fell so also whoever
this empire is will also be drunken. When you're a
drunk you're not in your right mind.
JOHN: Well, we, we've seen nations
overthrown for years, haven't we?
DAVID: Exactly. Thou shall be hid. Thou
also shall seek strength because of the enemy.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Just so happens God ends up being
their enemy. All thy strongholds --
JOHN: Listen. will God have his way whether
or not you're inside that compound or outside of that
compound?
DAVID: God is going to have his way
depending --
JOHN: Will he?
~..,4O O
41
DAVID: - upon what you do.
JOHN: What who does?
DAVID: You do.
JOHN: Well, we've already told you very
clearly that, that the -- these people here have
absolutely no intention of coming in that compound.
And --
DAVID: Well, John --
JOHN: -- and --
DAVID: -- I wish --
JOHN: But the yoke is not our yoke upon you.
DAVID: Look. Your law --
JOHN: You're free to exit there any time you
want to exit there and so are all those people. You've
told me they're free to leave, haven't you?
DAVID: You know, every weapon that I have
here I bought on the yellow sheet.
JOHN: Every one.
DAVID: Every one.
JOHN: And none have been remanufactured in
any manner? Is that correct? Or you'd rather not
answer that?
DAVID: Well, it I answer that --
JOHN: And I'm not, and I'm not asking it
in --
DAVID: It don't not discernible! --
.442
JOHN: - in that vein --
DAVID: If I, if I answer that, if I say yes
JOHN: Yes?
DAVID: -- then you'll say, uhhuh. If I say
no, then you won't believe me.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: See?
JOHN: I think I have my answer, don't I?
DAVID: Yeah, because we've been hearing all
over the news, all over, what we have here.
JOHN: Well, do you believe everything you
hear on the news?
DAVID: Well, it comes from ATF. I'm
supposed to, aren't I?
JOHN: Do you bel-
DAVID: Or am I?
JOHN: Do you believe everything you hear on
the news? 92
DAVID: Is ATP having different words put to
their movements of their mouth?
JOHN: well, I don't know. I haven't been
listening to the news, to tell you the --
DAVID: Right.
JOHN: -- truth.
DAVID: Let's get back to one thing. Whoever
a...-443
this power is, all their stror 1olds shall be like f '
trees with the first ripe figs. They'll be shaken and
fall into the mouth of the eater. You know what God
says about this thing? He says behold thy people, the
indiscerni 1e! of women. God's calling somebody
sissies. Thy gage shall be laid wide open to thine
enemies. The fire shall devour thy bars. You know,
God's - is the enemy. Just like Joel 2. It says, you
know, i. Joel 2 the strongest lord executes his word?
Ah, you know in the days of
Come on, John. They had to
wept them all away, didn't
ere in verse 8 -- in verseNoah, nobody believed Noah.
have the waters come and
they? Huh? It's just like
17 it says - in - I'm --
ta: with verse 16. Thou has multiplied merchants
hove the stars in heaven. How many merchants do you
ve in this nation, huh? How many merchants are in
.e whole world?
JOHN: Well, he also said that the merchants
are going to see this fire and, and unless this fire is
going to --
DAVID: No.
JOHN: He did.
PVID: No. What I'm saying is those who
have ships.
JOHN: Well, you identified the merchants as
being who?
....444
DAVID: The great men of the earth.
JOHN: Sure. And, and those with --
DAVID: You know, that is a fact.
JOHN: And those with ships, right?
DAVID: So, see it afar off. Exactly. And
wail, because no one buys their merchandise anymore.
when they pull in the dock --
JOHN: We don't have --
DAVID: -- the dock's not there.
JOHN: -- a whole lot of vessels floating up
and down the river in --
DAVID: Oh --
JOHN: -- in Waco, Texas, do we?
DAVID: I know, but this is a national thing.
Remember. You know --
JOHN: Well, --
DAVID: -- heart of Texas. Are you saying
that --
JOHN: No. .Someone's --
DAVID: -- Waco, Texas --
JOHN: -- trying to make it a national thing,
but it is a very local thing.
DAVID: Okay. Okay. Well, God'11 have to
spread it out then. He says thou's merchandi--
JOHN: Well, then, God can come out of that
compound and spread it out, can't he?
I
DAVID:45
Yeah.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID! Yes. When he's ready, he can.
JOHN: You betcha.
DAVID: Anyway, verse 17. Thy crown are as a
locust and thy captains as the great grasshoppers.
There's a lot of - there are a lot of - you got a lot
of bosses there, don't you?
JOHN: We all do.
DAVID: which camp in the hedges in the cold
day. Ooh, it's cold out here, isn't it? Are y'all
camping in the hedges? Is that what you're doing --
JOHN: I'm camping on a --
DAVID: - camping in the hedges?
JOHN: I'm camping on a chair talking --
DAVID: You're camping in --
JOHN: -- to you, David.
DAVID: - the hedges. But when the sun
ariseth, buddy, you're going to flee away. Thy
shepherds slumber, O king of Assyria. Thy nobles shall
dwell in the dust. You know, it just is true. I guess
the word of God is true. Verse 19, there's no healing
of thy bruise, is
that are going to
exposed about you
to clap the handsthere? The wound is grieving. All
hear, when everything's going to be
and what you're doing, they're going
over thee, for upon whom if not thy
....4V 46
wickedness pass continually.
JOHN: David.
DAVID: I'm willing to listen --
JOHN: Tell me what your --
DAVID: -- to you, John.
JOHN: -- intention is? Do you want to work
with me or don't you?
DAVID: Hey. I'm willing to work with you
when you begin to realize you need to start fearing
God.
JOHN: Well, I think we both do. I'm, I'm a
God-fearing person.
DAVID: You don't even know these prophecies,
my friend.
JOHN: Do I have to?
DAVID: You'd better believe it.
JOHN: To be a God-fearing person?
DAVID: If you -- exactly. Otherwise, the
gods you {ear will avail you nothing.
JOHN: No, I, I'm --
DAVID: There is a God of indiscernible! --
JOHN: -- just may not have as much religious
teaching and, and be as learned as tar as theology as
other people, but --
DAVID: This is not --
JOHN: -- that doesn't mean I'm a -- not a
a....447
God-fearing person.
DAVID: - theology. This is straight
testimony.
JOHN: Don't be condescending, David.
DAVID: Look. You said you wanted to hear
and I've let you hear something. If it means nothing
to you, I can do nothing. Okay?
JOHN: I just wanted an explanation, didn't
I? Isn't that what I asked for?
DAVID: Did you get it? God indiscernible!
JOHN: We went a roundabout way. Now, I have
to go tell all of the priests and all of the ministers
and all of the rabbis that they'd better start arming
their fortresses, huh?
DAVID: Stop playing child.
JOHN: You, you know exactly that's your
interpretation --
DAVID: Stop --
JOHN: -- of this.
DAVID: - being foolish.
JOHN: You're the one interpreting it that
way.
DAVID: You'd better come up hither, my_
friend. You better tear God like Paul, of whom you say
you believe was an apostle. Paul says tear him that
. ....¢48
speaketh from heaven. The apostles talk about a truth.
In the latter days it's going to come and wipe out all
nations.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: Now, go ahead and laugh at Psalms 45.
Go ahead and get on the side of your bed tonight and
look at Psalms 45, and go ahead and laugh at that
prophecy. And go ahead and laugh because I showed it
to you. But the door is now shut. If you have any
other questions, I'm sorry.
JOHN: What do you mean the door is shut?
Huh?
DAVID: I already tried --
JOHN: You're not going to talk to me
anymore?
DAVID: I already tried to tell you the key
of David opens, but you don't believe Psalms 45. You
don't believe the warnings of the ancients. You don't
know about the lips of the ancients they cause to
speak. Spiritually discerned. I -- you know, what can
I say, John?
JOHN: David, the -- the truth may be here,
David. But it you remain inside there, who's going to
open the door?
DAVID: The door is already opened.
JOHN: But you just said that the door is
e.-449
shut.
DAVID: I'm talking about there are things
that you do not know. I've opened up Psalms 45 to you.
who only can open the first seal, John?
JOHN: Well, we've, we've covered that
ground, haven't we?
DAVID: Who?
JOHN: The Lord's going to open the seals,
right?
DAVID: Who just did? It's a small, minute,
little red light at first. Just a quickening of the
mind, a quickening of the intellect. Hey, Psalms 45,
the first seal. You should have heard all those
preachers and teachings on the radio the other day.
They sure sounded funny.
JOHN: Let me ask you something, David,
changing the subject. Okay? Since -- because I guess
we're pretty satisfied that my answer to why you have
all those weapons has been now put upon me, huh?
DAVID: In the Book of Nahum, as was in other
prophecies.
JOHN: I mean, you're satisfied --
DAVID: My work --
OHN: You're satisfied that you have
answered my question, ha aren't you?
DAVID: Well, not really. I'd like to answer
...-150
it in greater detail. But my means of answering you is
the means that you don't want to hear.
JOHN: Well, I mean, you can tell me that
you're doing it because of the books. Right?
DAVID: But that does not avail you with an
understanding. See, you don't understand, John. Too
many years --
JOHN: Well, I'm trying.
DAVID: Well, let's, let's back up a second
now. Psalms 45 is a prophecy about God talking about
his Son, right? God's heart indiscernible! a good
matter. He wants to talk about things he's made. Is
he a creator? Is he a maker? Touching the king?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Has God elected a king?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Is God's tongue the pen of a ready
writer? Has he got -- is God going to write it down?
Did he think his Son is fairer than children of men?
Do you think God loves you more or his Son more?
JOHN: And I'm listening to you, David.
DAVID: God says that grace is poured into
the Son: mouth.
JOHN: Where are you?
DAVID: I'm, I'm just, I'm just -- I'm not,
I'm not looking in the Bible no more. I'm just simply
..-4going over Psalms 45.
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID: Well, I'm --
End of Tape #72!
92...4U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #73
3/6/93
10:28 p.m. - 11:15 p.m.
~..-4O O
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Tape 73!
DAVID: -- until you know about his book,
that he wants to talk about things he's made touching
the king, correct?
JOHN COX: True.
DAVID: He's going to put in the book, isn't
he?
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID: His tongue will be the pen of a ready
writer. He wants you to know that he thinks his son is
fairer than the children of men. You may not think so.
Isaiah 53 says there's no beauty when we shall see,
that we shall desire Him. He's not the kind of guy you
just look at and say, oh, wow, look at Him, He's the
Christ. Says that grace is poured into his lips.
Instead of hurting anybody, I would rather teach the
truth.
JOHN COX: You can do that, too, can't you?
DAVID: Oh, yes, I would more than do
anything and you don't know what I've given up. I
should be able to do that.
JOHN COX: But you can teach - you can teach
the truth to more people than just those people that
are inside that compound, can't you? If you want to.
And it's your decision to make.
DAVID: You see, John, --
~...43
JOHN COX: Am I saying an untruth to you?
DAVID: Well, you're, you're, you're not
fully understanding what position or time we're in. I
explained to you we're in the fifth seal.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And because of your lack of
understanding of that seal as well as the second, third
and fourth, you don't understand the events as they're
now transpiring. You don't understand you don't
understand that there is a heaven and there is a God
and there are people of great authority there. You
don't understand that Moses is there and Elijah and
Enoch's there. You don't understand these things. And
you're of this world, you've never had a chance to go
beyond this world.
JOHN COX: Well, I am. I can't deny that.
DAVID: Okay. So, God has proclaimed ahead
of time something that must be done. There must be --
JOHN COX: Aren't you, aren't you of this
world?
DAVID: No, I'm not. Honestly, John, I am
not. I was born in this world.
JOHN COX: Yes. And you also told me that
you have never broken the laws of this country, didn't
you?
DAVID: Exactly, until recently.
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JOHN COX: No. Did you -- you've never
broken the laws?
DAVID: Go check my record, my past record.
JOHN COX: Oh, I'm not checking -- I'm not
chec?ing your record.
DAVID: I mean in '8 , 'n '88 --
JOHN COX: You know, it's, it's like me
telling -- it's like me telling my dad I never broke
the law and I never drank under age. Did you ever
smoke gras s?
DAVID: Once.
JOHN COX: Did you break the law?
DAVID: Yeah, I did.
JOHN cox: Okay.
DAVID: I have to admit I did. But I didn't
smoke that much.
JOHN COX: Well, you just told me you didn't
break the
lou got me
EXCUSE DOWlaw.
DAVID: Well, I guess you got mt on that one.
-n that one.
JOHN COX: Well, --
DAVID: But, of course, that was put into law
JOHN COX: Don't give me - don't give me an
DAVID: No excuse. Hey, and I didn't like
-..-4it,
ran
was
off
not
you
did5
you know what I mean. I was one of these guys that
seven miles every day, you know. And a guy that
physically in condition like me got a better high
of isometrics and physical fitness. I mean I could
understand at a very young age why all my friends,
know, were doing that kind of stuff. And when I
it, you know, we really didn't know that much about
laws, per se.
JOHN COX: Let me ask you something, David.
Would - let me - and it's away from this and I don't
want you to think that I'm, I'm trying to move you away
for
youa particular reason. But I think I understand how
responded to my question as to why you have those
weapons there, because that's going to suit your needs,
allright? That's why you have those weapons there.
DAVID: Why did your --
JOHN COX: Let, let me ask you, would you --
do you want to communicate with the media? Do you want
to communicate with them?
theDAVID: If they have questions to ask, now's
best time to ask them. So, you can make your
statements. We --
JOHN COX: No, no, no. Do you want to
communicate with the media?
ButDAVID: What -- well, that would be fine.
it would --
6
JOHN COX: You know how you communicated with
the media before?
DAVID: Yeah, through the telephone lines.
JOHN COX: No, through a -- an audio tape.
DAVID: Well, you see -- .
JOHN COX: would you like to do it again?
DAVID: That is - okay, look. The Bible
communicates to us through a bunch of words, right?
JOHN COX: I'm just asking you a question.
I'm looking for a yes or no.
DAVID: No, that's not efficient. It does
not --
JOHN COX: It's what?
DAVID: It does not serve the perfect
purpose.
JOHN COX: I'm asking you if you have a
statement that you would like to be heard by the media
and by those addressed by the media, would you or
wouldn't you? I'm going to give you the opportunity to
do it.
DAVID: John, there are people that have
questions and a statement only --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
DAVID: - develops another question. One on
one communication. It's like I'm talking with you and
I'm saying, John, is Psalms 45 the first seal? And
C-47
you're saying, well, you can see that it has ~- it
definitely has a basis in the first seal of Revelation.
But what I'm trying to say to you again is I'm saying,
John, don't you fear God? Don't you know what I've
just shown you? Don't you know who I am? And you,
turning away from the Revelation, turning away from God
JOHN COX: I tell no, I tell you that I
fear God and that I know you know who you say you are
and that, that's fine. But do I have to accept that?
DAVID: Well, it could cost you a great cost
if you don't.
JOHN COX: I believe that you believe who you
are but --
DAVID: Do you believe --
JOHN COX: -- that's not consistent with the
teachings that I have received. So, and --
DAVID: Well, wait a minute.
JOHN COX: r you're just telling me --
DAVID: And you're saying --
JOHN COX: Pardon me?
DAVID: You're saying that Psalms 45 is not
the first seal?
JOHN COX: I am, I am saying that my
teachings, as well as other people's teachings are --
V DAVID: You talking about the Catholic
-0.48
church?
JOHN COX: Oh, sure.
DAVID: Well, you know what the papacy -
JOHN COX: But I'm not going to argue with
you about your, your feelings and your interpretations
of what you're saying.
DAVID: Well, what is, what is the papacy's
interpretation of the first seal? You can't even tell
me, can you?
JOHN COX: Do you want me to go call Rome and
tell him, you know, I, I don't go along with this? I
mean you don't give a rat's ass anyhow, do you, what I
tell them, do you?
DAVID: The Vatican is a very unique place,
isn't it?
JOHN COX: It is.
DAVID: Very powerful place.
JOHN COX: But I'm not going to argue about
the Methodists, the Baptists, the Lutherans, the
Episcopalians.
DAVID: Why - they're sisters, aren't they?
JOHN COX: I think we all are.
DAVID: Not us.
JOHN COX: Why?
DAVID: We're not related.
JOHN cox: Why?
_...,a9
DAVID: Because our God is a God of truth.
And we hello?
JOHN COX: But my God is not a God of truth?
DAVID: No.
JOHN COX: We all have the same God, David.
DAVID: That's not true.
JOHN COX: Yeah, it is.
DAVID: Laughs! Contrary.
JOHN COX: Au contraire, wrong. It's all how
we interpret it .
DAVID: It's all how we believe the testament
of God.
JOHN COX: Hey, I'm not going to argue that.
But there is a God. You know, I'm not some theologian
that's going to sit here and try and grasp this. I
can't. I really can't. And you know that.
DAVID: I'm sorry.
JOHN COX: But I asked you - I asked you
whether or not you would like to make a tape and have
it given to the media. would you like to do that?
DAVID: Wait one second.
Pause!
STEVE: John?
JOHN COX: What's up, Steven?
STEVE: What's up, John?
JOHN COX: What's the matter, he couldn't
_....-410
stand it anymore?
STEVE: What do you mean?
JOHN COX: He gave --
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN COX: - up on me.
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN CCX: David gave up on me.
STEVE: Okay. Don't move it anymore cause
it -- okay. Now, what's that?
JOHN COX: David gave up on me. How come?
STEVE: I don't know.
JOHN CO : He's not walking awa" shaking his
zad, is he?
STE Well, he does nave - ab. 1 that look
on his face.
JOHN COX: Very perplexed?
STEVE: Not quite, but he is --
JOHN COX: He's not mad at me, is he?
STEVE: Oh, of course, not.
JOHN COX: 1, I --
STEVE: Probably sorry.
JOHN COX: Sorry for me?
STEVE: For sure.
JOHN COX: Well, he's not the first. He's
not the first.
STEVE: NO.
92..~nll
JOHN COX: No, I just asked him, asked him a
question, whether or not he would like to make a
statement to the media the same way that he made one
before, on a tape. And I didn't get an answer.
STEVE: Just a minute. '
STEVE TO DAVID: He said he all he did was
ask you a question if you wanted to make a statement to
the media - .
STEVE: I'm supposed to tell you you're a
snake.
JOHN COX: I'm a snake?
STEVE: But --
JOHN COX: Well, I've been called worse
things than that before.
STEVE TO DAVID: He said he's been called
worse things than that before.
STEVE: But he says he still loves you but he
says you're a snake.
JOHN COX: _Oh. What I was going to do is, is
give him the opportunity to do it, you know. If he
wants to make a statement, fine. We can make some
arrangements to do that.
STEVE TO DAVID: Indiscernible! to do it, if
you want to make a statement, fine.
STEVE: He's more - he looks kind of worn
out.
92..,412
JOHN COX: Oh, I can't believe that.
STEVE TO DAVID: He said he can't believe
that.
JOHN COX: He was enjoying every moment of
it. Hey?
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN COX: You tell
every moment of it.
STEVE TO DAVID: He
every moment of it.
JOHN COX: And he's
rub off.
STEVE: He says the
the end.»
him I know he enjoyed
says, I know you enjoyed
hoping some of it will
truth will judge us in
JOHN COX: Well, isn't that the -- that's the
truth. I can't argue that, can I? It will. Are you
interested in making a statement, Steven?
STEVE: Well, in --
context? Making a statement,
to the public, to --see, what, what's the
do you mean to the world,
JOHN COX: No, not to me, not, not to me, no.
STEVE: I didn't say to you, I said to the
world.
JOHN COX: Well, sure. I mean --
STEVE: Are you talking about by the press,
by the telephone or what are we talking about?
e....n13
JOHN COX: Basically, we're basically -- I
don't know if you're interested or you're not. If you
are, we can make arrangements for you to make a taped
statement and give it -- we'll give it to the media.
If, if you're not, just tell me you're not. That's
all.
STEVE: Okay. Just a minute.
STEVE TO DAVID: He's asking me if I'm
interested or you're interested in making a statement
to the media.
STEVE: David says give us a line.
JOHN COX: Give you a line?
STEVE: Like we had before this all came
about. we had three or four telephone - four
telephone lines to the outside.
JOHN COX: You're talking on the line.
STEVE: Yeah. But we're talking on --
JOHN COX: This is, this is the line.
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: Now, what, what I have asked is if
you would like to make a --
STEVE: A taped statement --
JOHN COX: -- a taped statement to be given
to the media. And, and, you know, the last tape
statement that was given to the media was not altered,
was not played with, you know. I'm just asking you if
92...414
you'd like to do it because --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: -- there's going --
STEVE: Because there's --
JOHN COX: I'm not, I'm not looking for 58
minutes now.
STEVE: Okay. Just a minute.
STEVE TO DAVID: He said he just wants to
know if you want to do it, if you want to make a
statement Indiscernible! to the media. Indiscernible!
He says I hope it wouldn't be a 58 minute one.
Indiscernible conversation between Steve and David!.
JOHN COX: Steven? Steven?
STEVE: John?
JOHN COX: Let, let me --
STEVE: He said he'll start working on it.
JOHN COX: But let me tell you --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN COX: -- what, what this will consist
of.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN COX: And then it may be negotiable, all
right?
STEVE: I'm listening.
JOHN COX: But I'm, I'm just throwing it up
for grabs.
.....-4prepare,
send out
same way
are sent15
STEVE: I'm listening.
JOHN COX: All right. That David will
or in his absence if you want to prepare and
a tape for the media, it will be received the
before. '
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: When the children and the women
out, we'll play the tape.
STEVE: Okay. Just a minute.
JOHN COX: Now, as I said, --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN COX: - this is negotiable.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: All right. Give me another offer
if you don't like that one.
STEVE TO DAVID: Indiscernible! he says you
can do as before. Get a tape together. When the women
and children are sent out, they will play it. This is
negotiable. ~
JOHN COX: Hey, Steven? Steve -- Steven?
STEVE: He said, he said, John, he says, I
told him he was a snake.
JOHN COX: Well, you know why - you know why
I'm saying this? And as I said, I've been called --
STEVE: Why are you saying that?
JOHN COX: I've been called worse things than
....¢u16
a snake. Haven't we all? And the reason --
STEVE: Well, see, Christ was also called a
serpent, though. So, --
JOHN COX: And the reason I'm willing to play
the tape after they're released -- '
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: -- is because we played a 58
minute tape with an entree to it and nothing happened.
And that's, that's why we're looking for some
assurances on David's part.
STEVE: Just a minute.
STEVE TO DAVID: He says, he says we're
looking for some assurances this time because the last
time we played it first.
STEVE: David is not smiling right now. He
said his God --
JOHN COX: Has he thrown anything at you?
STEVE: He is -- I mean I'll tell you what,
he's extremely serious right now. He's, he's --
JOHN COX: Well, good.
STEVE: - actually staring at me saying, he
said my God said waitf
JOHN COX: I, I hope he is being serious and
staring at you. But what I am saying is -- first of
all, I said it was a negotiable thing, didn't I? But I
said that --
~...,<17
STEVE: He said he --
JOHN COX: -- we --
STEVE: John, here's what --
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
STEVE: -- here's what he said. He said any
of these people can leave and go out from here any time
they want. But for he, himself, --
JOHN COX: Well, well, send me something to
prove that. And I want to get things moving again,
Steven. You want to get them moving. David wants to
get things moving. And we want to see some positive
signs.
STEVE: What, what do you know -- see, he's
actually sent me around the building, asking people on
a day-by-day basis, do you want to leave, do you want
to leave? That is no joke. Right from this morning
on --
JOHN COX: Steven --
STEVE: right from this morning on --
JOHN COX: He had a little girl this morning
that said that she wanted to leave, and what happens?
Somebody pumps something in her ear and says, no.
STEVE: Well, that's -- not so, no, no, not
so. I was sitting right here the whole time. Her
mother said nothing to her.
JOHN COX: Do you think I fell off a turnip
7
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truck?
STEVE: Listen, that's the --
JOHN COX: Huh?
STEVE: -- truth. I sat here -- when the
first question was asked, do you want to leave, she
said, no. The second part of the question --
JOHN COX: She said yes first.
STEVE: No, she didn't. No, she did not.
She didn't.
JOHN COX: Come on, Steve.
STEVE: No, no. The second part of the
question -- now, listen, if you were there, you would
have heard this.
JOHN COX: Well, I wasn't there.
STEVE: Well, I was. I was right here. The
second part of the question is, if we get to talk to
Gonzales, Robert Gonzales, would you go if that gave us
the oppor -- and she said, yes, to that. And I about
fell over. ~
JOHN COX: Steve, are you going to tell me
that this six year old girl knows Robert Gonzales?
STEVE: Listen, listen. I --
JOHN COX: What do you think, I fell off the
pumpkin truck?
STEVE: No, no, no, no, no, no. Now, listen
to this. This is what happened. Whether she
e...-119
understood or not, I don't know. I don't know.
JOHN COX: You've got a good idea, huh?
STEVE: Well, I would imagine she probably
didn't.
JOHN COX: Sure. '
STEVE: But at the same time, her mother made
no faces, no one coerced or encouraged either
direction. And then her mother - again, it was asked
her mother if she wanted the daughter to go.
JOHN COX: Well, who guided the child?
STEVE: Well, then the mother did.
JOHN COX: Did the child do it of her own
free will and volition?
STEVE: Well, this -- and the last thing --
JOHN COX: No.
STEVE: Listen. The last thing that was
asked was that did the girl want to go or did the
mother want her daughter to go. The mother said she
did not want her daughter to go unless Robert called
David and they had a phone conversation.
JOHN COX: Now, who planted that seed in the
mother's mind?
STEVE: David did.
JOHN COX: Well, sure. The mother didn't
know Robert Gonzales from the man in the moon.
STEVE: No, she did. She saw him. She --
~:.-a20
JOHN COX: Well, --
STEVE: - got to meet him.
JOHN COX: I know she saw him but she doesn't
know the part he played in this thing unless somebody
told her, right? So, did the girl have the opportunity
to leave? Yes. The girl said she wanted to leave --
STEVE: Here's what David --
JOHN COX: -- and someone planted a seed and
told her not to.
JOHN COX: No, no, here's how it works. The
woman and her daughter -- number one, the woman did not
want to leave but David says, look, if that gives this
man an opportunity for me to talk to him, to share some
things with him, would you be willing to encourage your
daughter to leave? She didn't want to leave her
daughter go, in the first place.
JOHN COX: How many women have allowed their
daughters to leave?
STEVE: Oh,-quite a few of them.
JOHN COX: Sure. And how many should be with
their children, raising their children, caring for
their children?
STEVE: Of course. Of course.
JOHN COX: You know it and I know it, right?
STEVE: Of course.
JOHN COX: Sure. Sita --
92.~a21
STEVE: SO --
JOHN COX: -- said she wanted to leave. She
would like to leave. But she's not leaving, is she?
STEVE: It's because of the mother. I can go
get the mother right now. You can talk to her again if
you want and I'm, -- I'll walk away.
JOHN COX: Well, how do I know -- how do I
know what you tell the mother and what David tells the
mother?
STEVE: Believe me, I have no when it --
look it, these people have come from such a distance, I
have no influence on them. Even my own decisions are
something that Indiscernible!.
JOHN COX: Why don't you let that mother walk
down that road and tell somebody down at the end --
STEVE: She can.
JOHN COX: Tell them --
STEVE: She can do that.
JOHN COX: -- down at the end of the road
that she doesn't wish to leave.
STEVE: She can do that.
- JOHN COX: You know, I asked you yesterday to
do me something real simple. Last night when we were
talking and remember I read off the list of names to
you of some of the concerned people that called about
people --
awnSTEVE: And I wrote those down.
JOHN COX: Not when I was talking to you, you
didn't, right?22
STEVE: No, no, no, no, not -- I told you
that. Don't you remember how late it was?
JOHN COX: Sure. And I understand that and I
appreciate that. But I asked you that I would like you
to do me a favor and you said, uh-huh. And,
get back. And then you and Dick talked this
presume about it, huh?
STEVE: That's right.
JOHN COX: And I said I would like
people to speak to me or to speak to Dick orand you'd
morning, I
these
to speak
to whomever, at your leisure so that I know that person
is healthy and safe in there and I can call David
Thibodeau's relative and say, yes, Belinda, David's
fine. And I can call --
STEVE: Well, there's two right here.
JOHN COX: ~ Margarita Vaega's --
STEVE: Would you like to talk with a couple
of people here?
JOHN COX: I really would. I really would.
STEVE: Okay. Well, --
JOHN COX: But I thought you were going to
make those arrangements.
STEVE: I -- well, look it, here's what I
- ,423
did. I went and talked -- I took the list down from
Dick.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: I can even read the list back to you.
I went around - I wrote down I says, well, who was
it that called? Who were they asking for?
JOHN COX: Uhhuh.
STEVE: The first three names that you gave
which he, again, reiterated to me were people that have
-- I have never heard of them. Nobody here has ever
heard of them. So, --
JOHN COX: Nobody ever heard of David
Thibodeau?
STEVE: Oh, no, of course, David -- let me
grab --
JOHN COX: That's the first name.
STEVE: Let me grab the list again, okay?
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
STEVE: Let me take a look at it here. I
can't even find - where, where did I go with the
thing? I've got it here. Okay. Let's see what we
have. Now, all these people were told, I went right to
every last one of them and asked them --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: and told them the guy, he'll be
calling. You can get on the phone. You can wait for
~--424
his call.
JOHN COX: Uhhuh.
STEVE: Here's the list that was given to me.
JOHN COX: Yeah, go ahead.
STEVE: Okay. I'm looking at it right here.
Let's see. The first three names -- he told me that a
Barbara Reed, a Lee Ann Josephson and a Bill Josephson.
JOHN COX: Uhhuh.
STEVE: And the connecting person was Lynn
Josephson. I said I have never heard -- I asked
everybody here if they've ever heard of any of those
four names. No one ever has.
JOHN COX: No Barbara Reed?
STEVE: No Barbara Reed. I don't know who
she is.
JOHN COX: What about David Thibodeau?
STEVE: Of course, Dave Thibodeau.
JOHN COX: Because Belinda Gainon called
about him. What about Jeff Little?
STEVE: Jeff Little, also. I answered -- in
fact, we went right down the list, Dick and I did, and
I answered every one that was here.
JOHN COX: And Margarita Vaega?
STEVE: Correct.
JOHN COX: Katherine's already outside.
STEVE: Exactly.
-..-125
JOHN COX: Kathy Katherine Matthewson.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN COX: Sherri Jewell.
STEVE: Right. She's here.
JOHN COX: Mary Jean Borst?
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: Gran - what is it, Graeham or
Gran Craddock?
STEVE: That's correct.
JOHN COX: Douglas Martin?
STEVE: That's correct.
JOHN COX: Sheila Martin?
STEVE: Correct.
JOHN COX: Paul Fatta?
STEVE: Correct.
JOHN COX: And K01 what is it, Kolani
Fatta?
STEVE: Correct.
JOHN COX: And all I said was, would you let
those people speak to me, say hello, say I'm doing
fine?
STEVE: And I said, yes. In fact, there's
two of them - well, there's two not in that list right
here.
JOHN COX: Well, that was 24 hours ago.
STEVE: What am I going to do when we get on
..._-426
the phone talking for hours like just now and --
JOHN COX: Yeah, but I was, I was getting --
STEVE: Wait, wait.
JOHN COX: an education, wasn't I?
STEVE: This is correct. Not only --.
JOHN LAUGHS!
STEVE: - not only that, not only that, it
was not me that brought up the subject matter of the
last few conversations in the first place. When Dick
talked to me earlier in the day --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: - I took it down.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: He said he'd get back to me in a few
hours, which - and it would have been like 4:00.
JOHN cox: Okay.
STEVE: And at that time he never brought up
anything to do with these names even though I had the
people standing right_here.
JOHN COX: Well, you could have put them on
the phone, huh?
STEVE: Well, he didn't ask for that. He
started talking about --
JOHN COX: Hey, give him a little guidance.
STEVE: No, he said he had a new proposition
that --
.....-427
JOHN COX: Give him a little guidance
sometimes, Steve.
STEVE: Hey, come on, John. He gave -- he
said he had --
JOHN COX: Would, would you, would you~let
them talk to me?
STEVE: He had a new proposition. He said --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- there was something new that he
thought we'd go for, that would be great. And that's
when he dropped on me, we'll back off the Bradleys and
everybody come out. I said, oh, great, we're, we're
out there now.
JOHN COX: Yeah, I know about that. But
would you let them -- would you let the people talk to
me?
STEVE: Yeah, they're right here.
JOHN COX: And I'm not trying to play a game
with you. I really would like --
STEVE: Here's, here's Rita. You want to
talk to Rita?
JOHN COX: Yeah.
STEVE: She'd like to talk to you.
JOHN COX: Great.
STEVE: This is John Cox. F.B.I. agent?
JOHN COX: Yes, sir.
_-428
STEVE: Okay. And then after that will be
Lisa.
JOHN cox: Okay.
STEVE: Okay, here's Rita.
RITA: Hi, John.
JOHN COX: Rita?
RITA: Yes.
JOHN COX: What, what is your last name,
Rita?
RITA: Riddle.
JOHN COX: Rita Riddle?
RITA: Uhhuh.
JOHN COX: Well, you're not one of the names
that, that I have on the list here but do you have a
relative outside that you would like us to call and
tell them that you're fine?
RITA: Sure.
JOHN COX: Okay. Who would you like us to
call? .
RITA: You can call - I mean I, I know they
know I'm fine, you know. I mean they know why
JOHN COX: Well, I'm just trying to be
reassuring to people, that's all.
RITA: Well, that's what I'm saying, you
know. They know why I'm here and --
JOHN COX: Okay.
C...29
RITA: - you know, they know I'm fine. But,
yes, if you want to do that, that's okay, too.
JOHN COX: Okay.
RITA: It's a North Carolina number. The
area code is 704.
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RITA: And the number would be 684 --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RITA: ~ 1639.
JOHN COX: Okay.
RITA: And the person that you can ask for is
my father. His name is James Riddle.
JOHN COX: James Riddle. Okay. Well, I
appreciate it. I really do.
RITA: But I would just like to tell you, you
know, you think that he's got a bunch of people here
that's not here of our own free will.
JOHN COX: No, I don't think that at all. I
think everybody's in there because of your - other
than the children maybe that don't have their own free
intellect or something, but I think you're all there
because you want to be there.
RITA: Well, --
JOHN COX: What I'm saying is that - the
question is, can anybody leave if they want to leave?
RITA: Of course. Look, the car
.--A30
Indiscernible!.
JOHN COX: Well, we've had, we've had some
people tell us that they would like to leave and they
haven't left.
RITA: You've had people in here tell you
that they wanted to leave and haven't left?
JOHN COX: We've had children tell us that
people would like to leave.
RITA: Who, who's that?
JOHN COX: Well, I'm not going to put
somebody on the spot.
RITA: Look, I'm sitting here. I know what
goes on in here.
JOHN COX: Well, I'm sure you do.
RITA: And I'm saying if there's any kids
that want to leave here, they're more than welcome to
go. Like he said, you know. He's gone around and told
everybody if they want to leave --
JOHN COX: Well, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not to
debate a child. I mean a child's going to do what a
parent tells a child to do and I'm not trying to get
into any dispute there.
RITA: There's nobody here told their kids.
The kids want to stay with their parents. The kids
that went out didn't want to leave.
JOHN COX: Let, let me ask you something,
C...31
Rita. You say the kids wanted to stay with their
parents?
RITA: Yes.
JOHN COX: All right. Do parents have an
obligation to their children?
RITA: Well, you know --
JOHN COX: Do they? Yes or no.
RITA: Do the parents have an obligation to
their children?
JOHN COX: Yes or no?
RITA: Of course, yeah. They brought them
into this world, so, yeah.
JOHN COX: Well, then what about the parents
of the children that have come out of that compound, do
they have an obligation to their well-being, their
welfare, and that they be raised properly?
RITA: Of course.
JOHN COX: Then why aren't they with them?
RITA: Because there's seven seals that's in
the Bible. If you knew if you had to listen long
enough --
JOHN COX: I've listened for days.
RITA: But, look, it takes a long time, you
know. We don't learn a scripture here and a scripture
there.
JOHN COX: You're not answering my question.
~..-4RITA: We learn --32
we learn that --
JOHN COX: Why aren't the parents with the
children?
RITA: That's exactly what I'm trying to tell
you.
JOHN COX: Is it because they don't love
their children?
RITA: Of course not.
JOHN COX: Then they should be caring for
their children, shouldn't they?
RITA: -They are caring for them. Because,
see, that's what I'm saying.
JOHN COX: They are?
RITA: Right. Yeah, they are.
JOHN COX: How, by
RITA: No. That's
you knew, if you had sit and
may you know, you said --
listened for two daysh
JOHN COX: Well, Iprayer?
what I'm telling you. If
listened long enough, you
you told me that you
am but I'm and I --
RITA: Hey, look, I've been here for two
years. It takes a long time --
JOHN COX: Well, I'm sure it does.
RITA: - to go over the whole book of the
Bible and to learn its meaning.
JOHN COX: I'm sure it does and I, I won't
C...U O
33
argue that point with you one bit. And we all have our
different interpretations, don't we?
RITA: Right.
JOHN COX: And I'm not going to argue those
either, whether a person's Baptist or Methodist or
Presbyterian or Catholic or Jewish or whatever they
are, you know. We all have free, free interpretation
there, don't we?
RITA: Yeah, but there's only one -- the
Bible says that there's only the Lamb that can reveal
the book.
JOHN COX: Well, I'm not going to try and
change your mind. I'm not going to try and change your
mind, and I wouldn't attempt to do that. I feel that's
your right and your privilege.
RITA: Well, but you're denying the world,
you know. I don't know what you're trying to cover --
JOHN COX: I'm doing what?
RITA: -- up_by not letting the press, you
know, by not letting us talk to the press. There's a
lot of people, look --
JOHN COX: Do you -- well, do you want to
talk to the press?
RITA: I have listened to people on the
radio. There were three people in particular that
stated that when they knew when the Federal government
~.¢134
pulled the media back --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
RITA: - that they knew right then that the
government had something to hide. You have stated on
your press conferences -
JOHN COX: Let me, let me tell you exactly
why we did it. You want me to tell you why we did it?
Do you want me to tell you exactly why we did it?
RITA: Go right ahead.
JOHN COX: Well, you -- I think you sound
exasperated and you're going to be condescending with
me. All I want to tell you is why we did it.
RITA: Okay. Go right ahead.
JOHN COX: We did it because the Federal
government is responsible for the safety and welfare of
the media, period. And we know the weapons that are
inside there, whether you know them or not, we know
them and David has admitted them to me, --
RITA: Laughs! So, you --
JOHN COX: -- that those weapons could harm
the media. And we're responsible for their welfare.
However, I have told David that if he would like to
speak to the media and I'll tell you, if you want to
speak to the media, all you have to do is walk down
that path and the media is down there.
RITA: That's ridiculous, you know.
1...-435
JOHN COX: No, it's common sense.
RITA: That -- no. That's totally
ridiculous.
JOHN cox: Why?
RITA: Hey, look, we have a telephone
JOHN COX: Do you?
RITA: You know --
JOHN COX: Well, go ahead and call out there
and talk to the media then.
RITA: Well, we can't because you messed our
lines up.
JOHN COX: No, I didn't mess your lines up.
RITA: Well, somebody did.
JOHN COX: Well, that could have been a
vision.
RITA: I don't think so. And, you know, you
- I, I figure it this way, you know, I'm with the
people on the radio, you know. When they said that you
had something to cover_up, you know, it's like you been
saying that we got ten people in here dead. Well, we
don't have --
JOHN COX: I won't tell you.
RITA: But, look, --
JOHN COX: I asked Steve --
RITA: it has never been straightened out.
JOHN COX: Let me tell you, I asked Steven
a.-436
last night, last night. And you ask him if I'm lying
to you. I asked him last night when we were discussing
Peter and we were trying to make some arrangements to
remove Peter. I said, Steven, if there are others in
there that are in the same condition of Peter, let me
know and we'll try to make some arrangements. And I
have not heard one word back. So, there is no
allegation --
RITA: Well, I haven't heard it changed
either about ten people being dead in here. So, you
know, I figure, hey, --
JOHN COX: That's the media saying that.
RITA: -- what you going to do --
JOHN COX: That is pure speculation on the
part of the media.
RITA: Okay. Well, where did they get it
from because like I said, we have no connection with
the media.
JOHN COX: I.have absolutely no idea. Why
don't - let somebody ask the media where they got it
from, come out and ask the media.
RITA: We don't need to come out to ask
anybody. Like I said, all we need is a telephone line.
JOHN COX: Well, you're not going to get it.
You know that.
RITA: Exactly.
~...437
JOHN COX: Well, come out and ask the media.
RITA: So that's what I'm saying, you know.
I, I'm not coming out there. I don't want to, you
know. I know they're out there.
JOHN COX: Well, that's your privilege. That
your prerogative. If you don't want to come out, you
don't have to. I don't want to be getting into an
argument with you, you know? You're, you're probably a
good person. If you want to stay in there, you stay in
there. All I'm saying is the opportunity is there for
you to come out. The opportunity's --
RITA: Hey, I'm well aware of that. Look --
JOHN COX: The opportunity is there for any
parent to come out and be with their child.
RITA: lndiscernible! I can come out anytime
I please. Look, I came here at Passover. I left and
went back home. Nobody made me stay. I came back at
Atonement.
JOHN COX: Well, that's good.
RITA: I left again. Nobody made me stay.
And just like now, nobody's forcing me to be here. I
can leave anytime I please, just like anybody else
here.
JOHN COX: Hey, I'm not going to tell you --
RITA: But, you know, look --
JOHN COX: -- I'm not going to tell you that
Q...38
you're doing anything wrong.
leave.RITA: But look --
JOHN COX: I'm not telling you that you can't
RITA: You -- V
JOHN COX: What I'm saying is that a parent -
RITA: Right. You said --
JOHN COX: - has a responsibility to take
for their child.
point.RITA: That's beside the point.
JOHN COX: Why, why is it? That is the
RITA: The point is, look, we've been sitting
here for almost 8 days now.
JOHN COX: Yeah.
RITA: And it's not going to change because,
yeah, as far as the media, the ball's in your court.
JOHN COX: It's going to change the minute
David hears the word.
RITA: But look, you know --
JOHN COX: Isn't it?
RITA: - the re -- why are we sitting here?
Why do you think we're sitting here? I mean, you
know, --
JOHN COX: Ask David.
~...-439
RITA: - there's a lot of people out here
that would like to hear David, that would like to have
questions answered, just like you did. But like I
said, you know, just because you didn't listen long
enough to get the full picture, you know, that's your
own fault.
JOHN COX: Hey, the only person that's going
to tell you why you're sitting there is David because
he said he has to hear the word. Isn't that right,
Rita?
RITA: Do what, now?
JOHN COX: The only reason you are in there
and you have not left - because David had agreed that
he and everyone in there --
RITA: Right. Originally, though, that's not
why we're here. At this point, yes.
JOHN COX: Everyone were going to leave and
David said you would not leave because he received a
word telling him to wait. That's the only reason
you're still in there.
RITA: That's right. That's right.
JOHN COX: So, don't give me some cock and
bull story about why you can't leave, that we're
preventing you from leaving. You can leave anytime you
want.
RITA: That's exactly right.
~.-440
JOHN COX: And that's your privilege. If you
don't want to leave, don't leave.
RITA: Well, that's what I'm saying, you
know.
JOHN COX: Well, that's good. The only
reason I asked to talk to you is so I could pass on to
one of your loved ones that everything's fine, not to
get into some debate with you. Do you understand that?
RITA: Yeah. Yeah, I sure do.
JOHN COX: Why don't you put Steven back on
the phone?
RITA: Okay.
LISA: Hello?
JOHN COX: Hey, who's this?
LISA: Hi, this is Lisa.
JOHN COX: Lisa?
LISA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Lisa who?
LISA: Lisa Farris.
JOHN COX: Lisa Farris?
LISA: Yeah.
JOHN COX: How do you spell your last name,
Lisa?
LISA: FA-R-RI-S.
JOHN COX: F as in Frank?
LISA: Right.
»..¢u41
JOHN COX: RR-IS?
LISA: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: Do you have someone out here that
you would like us to call and tell them that you're
doing fine? f
LISA: No, I don't have any family out there.
All my family is right here.
JOHN COX: No mother, father, sister,
brother, et cetera?
LISA: No, I was abandoned a long time ago.
JOHN COX: Okay. Well, that's the reason I
was speaking to Steven. We were discussing a lot of
other things along the way but I said there were some
people who had called, some, some relatives and friends
of people who were concerned, that's all. And I gave
them those individuals names and I said, if you get
them and put them on, I'd be happy to call a relative
and say, hey, I've spoken to your son, your daughter,
whomever. And they're.fine and they're -- they said to
say hello or whatever message they had.
LISA: Yeah. Well, I don't know how to get
in touch with them anyway even if you did want to talk
to them. I don't know where they are.
JOHN COX: Okay. Well, that's, that's the
only reason that, that I asked Steven to speak to
somebody. You doing okay?
~....,442
LISA: Uh-hum, fine.
JOHN COX: Well, that's good. I'm glad to
hear it. Is there any message you have for anyone?
LISA: Excuse me? Do I have a message for
anybody? -
JOHN COX: Yeah.
LISA: I just have a message to everybody,
you know.
JOHN COX: Sure.
LISA: And that is, you know, if they could,
get in, you know, get in contact with us, if they could
hear what we had to say, I wish, you know, I wish they
could but it's --
JOHN COX: If they could do what, now?
LISA: If they could hear what we had to say
and hear our side of the story, I wish they could.
JOHN COX: Well, let me tell you the same
thing I told Rita, okay?
LISA: Okay-
JOHN COX: You could walk down that road and
tell them anything you want to say and it's your
decision to make. It's not my decision, it's your
decision. And you've obviously decided to stay in
there.
LISA: Yeah. We walk out there, you're going
to handcuff us and put us in the, you know, --
~...¢u43
JOHN COX: Not going to handcuff -
LISA: -- solitary confinement and nobody's
ever going to be able to talk to us again.
JOHN COX: Why do you -- why do you say that?
If you have any --
LISA: Because --
JOHN COX: If you have --
LISA: - you guys shot at us, we shot back
at you and now, you know, you got us - we know how the
system works.
JOHN COX: Let me, let me tell you something.
LISA: You put people away everyday.
JOHN COX: Do you know the Federal system?
LISA: Yeah, of course, I know the Federal
system.
JOHN COX: Anybody is presumed innocent until
found guilty in a court of law. That's the Federal
system for you and for me, okay?
LISA: Uhhuh.
JOHN COX: If you have done nothing wrong,
you're not going to be arrested. We're not going to
arrest people who have done nothing wrong, who we have
no reason to --
LISA: That's not true.
JOHN COX: - to arrest. You think we
arrested the children when they came out?
92.._¢44
LISA: Of course not. They didn't, they
didn't do anything.
JOHN COX: Well, -
LISA: They're children and they can't --
JOHN COX: - you're not going to be arrested
if you didn't do anything either.
LISA: I am fighting for what I believe in,
and I'm fighting for, for my family and my friends
here. That's something.
court ofJOHN COX: But then you will be judged in a
law. But what I'm just saying is, if you want
to stay in there, that's your prerogative, you know.
LISA: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: That's, that's your business. I'm
not trying to force you to come out of there, but the
door is open. And as long as you understand that, that
you will be -- you will be cared for if you, if you've
been injured, your injuries will be treated. And
you'll be afforded legal counsel and in this country
it's the
you like
best one
with but
if therebest judicial system in the world. Whether
it, whether you don't like it, it's still the
in the world.
LISA: Okay. Well I think I should go.
JOHN COX: And it's something we have to live
I, you know, I didn't - I just wanted to see
was somebody that you wanted to talk to and
~..-I45
I'd be happy to pass on a message.
LISA: No, that's all right.
JOHN COX: And I'm glad to hear that you're
doing well.
LISA: Thanks.
JOHN COX: You're welcome.
LISA: Thanks a lot. You want -- Sherrie up?
I think she's sleeping. Sherri, you sleeping? Here,
here, talk to a friend of mine, Neal. Here, hold on.
JOHN COX: I'm sorry.
NEAL: Hello, John?
JOHN cox: Hey.
NEAL: What's up?
JOHN COX: Who's this?
NEAL: Neal.
JOHN COX: Neal?
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: What's your last name, Neal?
NEAL: Vaega,
JOHN COX: Neal --
NEAL: Yeah, you have my little kid there.
JOHN COX: I, I did what?
NEAL: You have a little kid of mine there.
JOHN COX: How do you spell your last name?
NEAL: V-A-E-GA.
JOHN COX: VAE-GA?
»...-446
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: And what's your youngster's name?
NEAL: Joanne.
JOHN COX: Okay.
NEAL: Yeah. I
JOHN COX: Well, I'll tell you one thing,
Neal NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- she's being cared for well and,
and she's probably in pretty good shape. She's - is
she seven years old, seven years old?
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: I think I remember her coming out.
NEAL: Yeah, yeah.
JOHN COX: Does she have - does she have
any, any problems or anything that we should know about
as far as taking medication or anything --
NEAL: Problems?
JOHN COX: I'm sorry?
NEAL: No, she's fairly normal.
JOHN COX: That's good. That's great because
I, I'm concerned about that as are - you know,
everybody out here wants to make sure that we take care
of them.
NEAL: Listen, John, we brought all those
kids up real good.
JOHN COX: I'm sure you did.
-....-u47
NEAL: There's nothing wrong with them.
JOHN COX: I don't think there is.
NEAL: I don't, I don't really see any reason
why they need any psychology or any psychologists.
JOHN COX: Oh, they're not.
NEAL: Okay. I just want to let you know.
JOHN COX: They're just being cared for.
They're being fed, they're being clothed, they're being
cared for, that's all.
NEAL: Yeah. I saw the photos and --
JOHN COX: And, and let me tell you, they'd
love to be with you.
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Is - do you have any, anyone out
here, Neal, that, that you would care for me to
contact, whether it's a mother, father, sister,
brother, and tell them that I spoke to you and you're
all right?
NEAL: Uh --
JOHN COX: And the reason -- and the reason I
ask that --
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- it's not a trick. I'm not
playing any games. We've had a lot of people call in
here and --
NEAL: Okay.
~..-448
JOHN COX: - who are concerned.
NEAL: My relatives are all in New Zealand.
JOHN COX: Well, I don't care.
NEAL: And, so, --
JOHN COX: We'll contact the - we've had the
British Consulate call us.
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: So, I'll be happy to contact the
New Zealand Consulate.
NEAL: Sure, by all means.
JOHN COX: You just give me a name and an
address.
NEAL: I did leave my address and number with
Joanne.
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
NEAL: And she has it.
JOHN COX: I'm sorry?
NEAL: And she has it.
JOHN COX: Joanne?
NEAL: Joanne. No, she ~-
JOHN COX: Who is Joanne?
NEAL: My little kid brought --
JOHN COX: Who is Joanne?
NEAL: Joanne?
JOHN COX: Oh, one of the other youngsters
that came out?
92..¢49
NEAL: No, that's my kid.
JOHN COX: I'm --
NEAL: The seven year old.
JOHN COX: I'm sorry, go ahead. And you gave
the address --
NEAL: And I gave the address and number on
it, on her --
JOHN COX: You gave her a little slip of
paper?
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Okay.
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Well, I can assure you that - did
it give the name of someone on there to be contacted?
NEAL: Yeah, she did. I gave it to her and
she had it on her person.
JOHN cox: Okay.
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: Now, do you understand the same
thing that I mentioned to, to Rita and to, to Lisa?
NEAL: Uhhuh.
JOHN COX: That you are free to leave and I
understand you are free to leave.
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: And that if you care to stay in
there, that's your business. No harm is going to come
~...¢I I
50
to you whether you stay you care to stay in there or
you, or you care to leave. And, and I've impressed
that upon David and I've impressed that upon Steven,
that, that I'm certainly not here to get into any
religious issues with you. And I respect your ,
religious beliefs, you, David, Steven's, Rita's,
Lisa's. That's your, that's your prerogative. But as
I explained to Lisa and as I explained to Rita, that
these children that are out here need their parents.
NEAL: Uhhuh.
JOHN COX: And they should be together and,
and that parents have a certain responsibility to their
children for their care and their upbringing and their
welfare.
NEAL: Uhhuh.
JOHN COX: And that if you want to be with
them, --
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: -7 you certainly can be. But I'm
not trying to exert any pressure upon you and tell you
that if you don't, something's going to happen. That's
not true. Your children are going to be taken care of
us out here because we love them like you love them --
NEAL: Okay.
JOHN COX: you know?
NEAL: Well, maybe you should send them back.
L.-n51
JOHN COX: Are you serious?
NEAL: Yeah. You're concerned about them
being with us and, and they're happy. Maybe you should
send them back here. I think this will be the best
place for them. I really didn't want to send them.
JOHN COX: Let me tell you something.
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: There's a reason, Neal, that those
children aren't going back in there and, and you know
what the reason is and I know what the reason is, is
that there's a lot of weapons in that place, there's a
lot of ammunition in that place.
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: And I am not going to put those
children in harm's way to allow them to get caught in
-- because of some foolish act by whomever, you know,
just one person makes some kind of a crazy mistake,
those kids can get hurt.
NEAL: John, they've lived with these arms.
They've lived with these firearms for as long as they
been around.
JOHN COX: You, you saw what happened last
Sunday, didn't you?
NEAL: Yeah, and that was the --
JOHN COX: It wasn't good, was it?
NEAL: -- fault of the B.A.T.F. It had
u..,n52
nothing to do with us.
JOHN COX: Hey, I am not here to judge whose
fault it is. That's not my job. A court of law will
judge whose fault it was. It's not my job. But what I
am telling you is those children are not going to get
put back in an environment where if anybody makes a
mistake, they can be harmed. And I hope you understand
that. And I'm not saying whether it's your mistake or
David's or Steven's or A.T.F.'s mistake, or the
F.B.I.'s mistake. But I think that I owe it, we owe it
to those kids --
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: - to insure that they don't have
to be in that environment. I don't want them harmed,
do you?
NEAL: No, but --
JOHN COX: Sure, you don't.
NEAL: that environment out there, too, is
just as bad, I mean <
JOHN COX: Well, you made, you made a
decision to send your daughter out, didn't you?
NEAL: Huh?
JOHN COX: You made a decision to send your
child out?
NEAL: This is true.
JOHN COX: So, you made that decision of your
~...-453
- NEAL: You're right.
JOHN COX: - own free will. Nobody forced
you to make it, did they?
NEAL: Well, --
JOHN COX: Huh?
NEAL: Huh?
JOHN COX: Nobody forced you to make that
decision, did they?
NEAL: That's true, John, that's true. I
sent them out.
JOHN COX: So, so, it was a - it was a
willful decision to send your child out?
NEAL: Yes.
JOHN COX: And, so, you had to have a reason
for sending your child out, didn't you?
NEAL: This is so that this could come to an
end.
JOHN COX: That's the bottom line, isn't it?
NEAL: Yes.
JOHN COX: And that's all I wish for, too,
huh?
NEAL: But if you're talking about
environment --
JOHN COX: Do you, you think that your child
is in a worse environment now than your child was in
before?
92-4154
NEAL: Oh, Waco, the killings that take place
out there is -- I don't see any difference. The same
people that attacked this place are the same people
already out there.
JOHN COX: Your child's being fed three days
- your, your child is being fed three meals a day --
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: -- in a nice warm bed in a nice
environment.
NEAL: I appreciate that.
JOHN COX: And, and because we care. And I'm
not telling you I'm not saying you don't care.
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN COX: You love your child. You tell me
how it's going to be resolved. I wish I had the
answer. You tell me you think how this is going to be
resolved.
NEAL: See, John, we live day-byday every
day and we - _
JOHN COX: Yeah, but we shouldn't have to,
Neal, should we?
NEAL: Well, you know, that's just the way
the world is.
JOHN COX: No, the world doesn't have to be
that way. I was living day-byday in another state a
week ago. But it doesn't have to be that way. And
~....¢-1SS
it's through reasoning and it's through common sense
and it's through communications that this thing is
going to be resolved peacefully and nobody's going to
be harmed. Wouldn't you like to see that happen?
NEAL: Well, let me put it this way, man
doesn't have the answer.
JOHN COX: Oh, I hope he does.
NEAL: He doesn't.
JOHN COX: I hope some sound judgement and
reasoning will prevail.
NEAL: No. We've gone generation after
generation. There's been a screw-up. There's been
snowballing. And it's going to get worse and worse.
We do not have the answer. Yes, the book that we --
JOHN COX: I'm listening.
NEAL: I'm talking about a book.
JOHN COX: I'm listening to you.
NEAL: Yeah, I'm talking about a book --
JOHN COX: Uh-huh.
NEAL: - that not too many people believe in
yet. They go every Sunday they go to church every
Sunday, they go to sabbath every Sunday. And that's
what we do. And then after that, it's back to --
JOHN COX: Who?
NEAL: - their own normal lives and they do
~...¢56
JOHN COX: Who?
NEAL: People.
JOHN COX: Just think of the ones that don't
go to church.
NEAL: Yeah, oh. They probably have a.better
chance than those who do go to church.
JOHN COX: Well, I hope not. I hope not.
NEAL: Well, --
JOHN COX: I mean I go to church and, and you
go to church, right?
NEAL: True.
JOHN COX: And even though we may not totally
believe the same thing, we do believe that there is
somebody stronger than us, don't we?
NEAL: True. And we believe that he has the
answer.
JOHN COX: Well, it may even be a she but
there is an answer, isn't there?
NEAL: Right, there is an answer.
JOHN COX: Sure. And --
NEAL: And it's in your fingertips.
JOHN COX: And you and I are going to accept
that answer some day, aren't we?
NEAL: Well, you're going to face it one way
or the other, whether we like it or not, whether we're
good or bad.
.457
JOHN COX: Well, we are. We are.
NEAL: Yes.
JOHN COX: And we all have to answer for our
actions, don't we?
NEAL: I think we are. V
JOHN COX: You know? But just - I think, as
I told David and I told Steven, you know --
NEAL: Uhhuh.
JOHN COX: - the Lord is charitable, too.
And, and so is the system. And, and I just want you to
understand that your children are going to be cared for
and that if you want to insure their safety and their,
their upbringing, all you have to do is come out and be
with them and nothing's going to happen to you. I'll
guarantee you that. But the system will prevail. You
know that and I know that. The system will prevail.
NEAL: Well, there is a system that was once
- :_
JOHN cox: NO.
NEAL: based on God.
JOHN COX: It's going to be a
and it's going to be a system next week
prevail.
NEAL: Well, I think the, the
the bureaucracy has gotten a lot bigger
be. It's not as simple as it was. Thesystem today
and it will
government and
than it should
Constitution
~.-458
has been stepped on. People --
JOHN COX: Well, it has.
NEAL: -- come on this property and do
whatever they want.
JOHN COX: I can't argue -- I can't argue
that. But people have viol - you say the Constitution
has been stepped on.
NEAL: Sure, it has.
JOHN COX: That's the law of the land, isn't
it?
NEAL: It's been violated.
JOHN COX: And you have to live by it and I
have to live by it.
NEAL: I wish you'd live by it.
JOHN COX: Huh?
NEAL: I wish people would live by it and --
JOHN COX: Don't we all?
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN COX: David was telling me that if he
hadn't been in the religious profession, he would have
loved to have been a law enforcement officer.
End of Tape #73!
~..-0U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #74
3/6/93 - 3/7/93
11:15 P.M. - 12:32 A.M.
awn2
Tape 74!
JOHN: You want to talk about the, the
Constitution being stepped on?
NEAL: Well, yeah.
JOHN: It's not easy, is it?
NEAL: No, it's not.
JOHN: It's real frustrating and -- but if
you, if you have some simple solution as to how in the
world this thing is going to be resolved, I'd love to
hear it.
NEAL: Well, the iblg has a simple solution.
JOHN: The iglg has a simple solution as --
NEAL: Sure, the --
JOHN: -- to how these events are going --
NEAL: Sure.
JOHN: -- to be resolved?
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN: What's the solution?
NEAL: Why don't you read Nahum?
Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.!
JOHN: Believe me, I have read Nahum. I have
read Revelation.
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN: I have read the Psalms.
NEAL: See, the thing of it --
~.-nJOHN:
and Steven read
they're
believe
have to
whetherNEAL:
JOHN:
reading
that he
believe
NEAL:
you bel
JOHN:
NEAL:
JOHN:
NEAL:
dorm:3
And I've listened to David read them
them.
Um-hum.
And I don't have an argument with what
, because David tells me something and I
believes that. That doesn't mean I
it or I, I don't have to believe --
Well, it's not necessarily a matter of
ieve it or not. Is it written --
The strict interpretation --
Is it written or that?
Well, sure.
You know.
But I asked him if he believes in the
Ten Commandments.
NEAL:
JOHN:
NEAL:
JOHN:And --
Do you?
Sure.
would you, would you violate any of
the commandments?
NEAL:
JOHN:
NEAL:Even God does.
Huh?
The question could be asked is God --
does God believe the Ten Commandments?
JOHN:
NEAL:I hope so.
He did a lot of killing.
a.4
Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.!
JOHN: Who did?
NEAL: God. Have you ever read the Old
Testament? - '
JOHN: Why do you say God did a lot of
killing?
NEAL: I don't think you've read the Old
Testament.
JOHN: Why --
NEAL: He even told the children of Israel go
out there and destroy the, the kingdoms.
JOHN: I asked David.
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN: David said God carried swords, right?
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN: Or Jesus carried swords.
NEAL: Sure.
JOHN: But did he use them to hur- harm
anyone? No, he didn't.
NEAL: Yeah, but why would he carry it for?
Or what was the purpose of --
JOHN: Maybe selfdefense.
NEAL: Yeah. Maybe in self-defense.
JOHN: Or maybe a veiled threat.
NEAL: Whatever the purpose was.
.4S
JOHN: But that doesn't mean that you and I
should kill, does it? Aren't we peaceful people?
NEAL: Sure we are.
JOHN: Do you want me to go tell the, the
minister down at First Baptist Church that he'd better
start putting LAW rockets and .50caliber machine guns
in the, in the church? Do you think he needs that?
No.
NEAL: No.
JOHN: That's crazy. And that's all I'm
saying. That I hope you understand that the reason I
want to talk to you is --
NEAL: Uh-huh.
JOHN: not to try and influence you one
way or the other.
NEAL: Yeah.
JOHN: That if you had a message to relay to
someone, I, I sincerely will relay that message. But
to -- and, and, believe me, your child is going to be
well-cared for, well-cared for. And, and, hopefully,
you will have the privilege of caring for your child
some day just like your child's being --
NEAL: well --
JOHN: - cared for now.
NEAL: Okay.
JOHN: But if you want to leave, you can. If
»....-1you want to stay in there, that's your privilege. I'm
not going to try and sway you.
NEAL:
Hawaii.
JOHN:
NEAL:
in Hawaii.
JOHN:
take her to her
you?
NEAL:
JOHN:
responsibility?
NEAL:
JOHN:
NEAL:
JOHN:
me, she can say
JOHN:We wanted to send her to her sister i
I'm sorry? '
I was going to send her to her sister
Then that will be done. But you can
sister in Hawaii if you want to, can't
well, I want you to do it.
Is it my obligation, my
I think so.
Why?
Huh?
Huh? If she has something to say to
it to me.
Okay?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: NOt
discernible!.
JOHN:
NEAL:
JOHN:Okay? Neal?
Yeah.
If she's got something to say to me,
tell her to say it to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Not
a...¢7
discernible!.
JOHN: All right?
NEAL: I can't hear what they're saying.
JOHN: Well, tell - put them on the phone.
NEAL: Okay. Hold on a sec. -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Not
discernible! because the media don't have anything to
worry about, because she said they had to protect the
media.
LISA: Okay. Hello, John?
JOHN: Hi.
LISA: We just want to let you know, tell you
that --
JOHN: who is this? Rita?
LISA: This is Lisa again.
JOHN: Lisa.
LISA: Yeah.
JOHN: Go ahead.
LISA: Well,.you were asking why, you know,
we wanted the media out here?
JOHN: Why, why, why we want what?
LISA: Why you didn't let the media come out
here. It's because you were afraid that we were --
JOHN: Did I --
LISA: -- going to convert them?
JOHN: I didn't ask why the media's not out
~.¢4there.
LISA:
JOHN:
LISA:
JOHN:
LISA:
because --
JOHN:
LISA:
JOHN:
LISA:
we're not out to
JOHN:
LISA:No. We asked.
I told you why they're not out there.
No, no. We asked. But you --
Okay. '
- were saying the reason why is
We have a responsibility.
You don't want them injured, right?
Absolutely.
Okay. But the thing is is, you know,
hurt anybody.
You're not what?
Yeah, see we're not out to hurt
anybody. You guys came on our property. You guys
started - you know, you brought these two trucks in
with all these people.
JOHN:
The people --
LISA:
JOHN:
LISA:
JOHN:Whoa, whoa, whoa. Listen. Listen.
You, you --
-- went -- Li
- totally destroyed our house.
Wait, wait. Listen. The people that
went on your property had not only a search warrant
issued by a U. S. District Judge, but they had an
arrest warrant issued by a U. S. District Judge, and
.49
that arrest warrant and that search warrant instructs
them, orders them, to execute those warrants. Orders
them. It doesn't ask them to do it. It doesn't say
you can if you want to. A warrant in writing orders
you to do something. That's why they were there.
LISA: Okay. That's understandable. Okay.
JOHN: Now, if --
LISA: I understand --
JOHN: -- things went wrong --
LISA: But why did you need them -- fifteen
thousand million people out here for an arrest warrant?
JOHN: Why did you need those LAW rockets and
those .50-caliber machine guns?
LISA: We don't need them.
JOHN: Then get rid of them.
LISA: We bel--
JOHN: Get rid of them. Throw them out the
windows.
LISA: What,-what is wrong, though, with each
person having --
JOHN: Don't give me a lot --
LISA: -- the right to bear arms?
JOHN: -- of nonsense about that Lisa. There
is no reason in the world somebody needs those kind of
weapons. I don't need them. I don't have them at
home. I don't have --
~.,.a10
LISA: The system you work for does.
JOHN: My church --
LISA: They got --
JOHN: -- doesn't have them.
LISA: -- you should see the tanks they've
got sitting in our front yard. They're worse than
anything.
JOHN: They do have them because they know
what some of those weapons can do, the destructive
power of some of those weapons. And those tanks aren't
going to harm anyone.
LISA: Anyway, that's besides the issue.
That's beside the point.
JOHN: But that's what you --
LISA: We understand --
JOHN: -- were saying.
LISA: No. Well, what I'm talking about is
why the media couldn't come out here. We're not out to
hurt them. Indiscernible!.
JOHN: Then come on out and talk to them.
You can go out and talk to them. Well, just walk down
the road and talk to them, if you want to. Nobody's
going to prevent you from doing that. But I, I'm not
-- I really sincerely do not want to get on the phone
and get in an argument with you.
LISA: Yeah. I don't want to get --
"4ll
JOHN: I'll answer --
LISA: -- into an argument.
JOHN: -- any question you have, believe me.
But -- and, and I'll talk to any relative in your
behalf. You know, I'm --
LISA: But not --
JOHN: -- being very sincere with you about
LISA: Okay.
JOHN: -- that.
LISA: Okay. Listen, why don't you come out
here?
JOHN: I'd be delighted to come out there. I
really would.
LISA: No, really. I'm serious. We'd, we'd
love to have you down here.
JOHN: Do you think I just fell off the
turnip truck? "
LISA TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He doesn't
think -- I don't know.
LISA TO JOHN: No.
JOHN: Hey.
LISA: No, no.
JOHN: I'm, I'm being very serious with you.
Do you --
LISA: I am, too.
..-112
JOHN: Do you think it would be in my best
interest to go hucklebucking down that road knowing
the weapons that are inside that place?
LISA: Hey --
JOHN: What assurances am I going to get that
nothing's going to happen? If David wants to meet me
down at the end of that road, I'll meet him down at the
end of the road.
LISA: Well, see, that's the thing, though,
John. I mean, if that's your reason --
JOHN: And I will not harm him.
LISA: We have our reasons. You're saying
that you won't harm us. How do --
JOHN: Well, I wo-
LISA: -- we know that? We got you got
tanks. You've got all kinds of people out there.
JOHN: Because you have to believe in the
system. That's all I can tell you.
LISA: Believe in the system?
JOHN: And if you don't want to believe in
it, that's your business and - that's your business.
Do you think we're going to harm these children that
came out, those ladies that came out?
LISA: The people -- the, the children that
you took out of their home?
JOHN: I didn't take anybody out. They were
».....4LISA
practically --
JOHN
LISA13
: You most certainly did. You e-- you
: Whoa, whoa. Wait a minute.
: -- insisted that they come out or you
weren't going to --
JOHN
to leave -- an
LISA
JOHN
LISA
or something w
JOHN
LISA
we're doing it
don't know wha
JOHN
LISA
JOHN: Those parents allowed their children
d, hey --
: Yeah, but --
: -- Neal just told me --
: -- we're afraid you might bomb us up
ith all --
: Neal just told me --
: -- the tanks you've got around here.
for their, their best interests. We
t you're going to do to us.
: You don't?
: No.
: Well, come out --
LISA: You got seven tanks out here. Of
course we're going to get these children out for their
best interests.
JOHN: Well, then let the rest of them out.
LISA: That's up to them.
JOHN: What do you mean that's up to them?
You just said that we made them come out. We didn't
.-414
make anybody come out.
LISA: Their parents let them out for their
best interests.
JOHN: Well, then why don't the rest of the
parents let their children out for their best ,
interests?
LISA: Because that's entirely up to them. I
can't forc--
JOHN: Huh?
LISA: I'm not going to tell them what to do.
JOHN: Is it common sense? Since you said
that they may be harmed.
LISA: That's true.
JOHN: Then I guess the, the women and
children and all of them should come out, huh? Whose
best interests are we looking out for?
LISA: I'm looking out for my best interests.
JOHN: Well, do you think --
LISA: Everybody else is looking after their
own best interests.
JOHN: What best interests are you looking
out tor?
LISA: Look, I don't trust your system.
That's --
JOHN: Okay.
LISA: -- basically where it stands. I don't
-...415
trust your system. I don't like it. I never have.
JOHN: Well --
LISA: And I don't --
JOHN: -- well, that's all right.
LISA: -- like what you've done to me and I
don't like what you've done to my friends and my
family.
JOHN: In what respect?
LISA: In what respect?
JOHN: Yeah. And I'm not talking about
Sunday, all right?
LISA: I --
JOHN: Sunday happened. Sunday's over with.
There's not a darn thing I can do about what happened
Sunday. I wish I could. Okay?
LISA: Okay. Well, look, everybody that --
JOHN: Tell me something else.
LISA: That anybody that knows us knows that
we have never harmed anybody or never had intentions --
JOHN: I'm not going to argue --
LISA: -- to harm anybody.
JOHN: I'm not going to argue that with you.
LISA: We've been out here for years.
JOHN: Answer one question.
LISA: Okay.
JOHN: Answer me a question.
$
an16
LISA: Okay.
JOHN: And I am not accusing you of harming
anyone. I'm not accusing David of harming anyone.
Steven -- no one.
LISA: Okay. I
JOHN: I think you're peace-loving people,
all right?
LISA: We are.
JOHN: Why do you have LAW rockets,
.50-caliber machine guns --
LISA: We don't have no LAW rockets.
JOHN: I know you do, so don't tell me that.
You just don't know what a LAW rocket is, that's all.
And why do you have .50-caliber machine guns?
LISA: We don't have those either that I know
of.
JOHN: You've got .50-caliber Barrett
phonetic! rifles.
LISA: Never seen one.
JOHN: I didn't ask you whether you'd seen
one. I'm telling you what's out there and David didn't
deny it and Steven didn't deny it, whether you've seen
it or not. And there's absolutely no reason to have
those kind of munitions.
LISA: But I don't think they have them, and
I've been everywhere in this whole house. I've never
~..-417
seen anything like that.
JOHN: Let's just say that neither David nor
Steven denied it, and I've been talking to them for a
few days. Okay?
LISA: Okay. .
JOHN: So, I'm and, and I don't have to
argue that with you. If, if you tell me you haven't
seen them, I believe you. Because maybe you haven't.
I'm not going to argue that with you. What I'm saying
is the system we have in this country is the best
system in the world. Whether you like it, whether I
like it, it's still the best one in the world.
LISA: Yeah.
JOHN: It doesn't get any better. You know,
we tell people if you don't like the system, you can go
someplace else. But we are a country of laws, aren't
we?
LISA: Umhum.
JOHN: And I raise my right, right hand one
LISA: But I don't think that's true either.
Because if we wanted to move to another country, you
wouldn't let us do that.
JOHN: You could have. You could have done
that a year ago, a week ago, whenever you wanted to.
If you don't like the system in this country, you can
go someplace else.
~.-418
LISA: well, can we go now? will you let us
go now?
JOHN: If you come out right now, the only
thing I'm telling you that will happen to you is that
no harm will come to you. If you have not violated a
law, then you will, will not be charged with any
violation of the law, will you?
LISA: Well, you know what, John?
JOHN: What?
LISA: I've got to tell you that we really
love you guys. We love you.
JOHN: Well, good. I love you too.
LISA: And --
JOHN: I'm being very truthful. I love you.
LISA: I know.
JOHN: And I hope nothing happens to you.
LISA: yeah, me too.
JOHN: Because it won't be because of any
action we've done. And, and, and I'm telling you
you're dealing with the FBI and you're dealing with the
other Federal agencies, and nothing - no harm is going
to come to you because of something we're doing. We
are working out on a perimeter and we're out there to
protect people. And that's, that's it. Nobody is
going to assault that place. You may -- somebody might
tell you something, but it's not going to happen. It
~....n19
is just not going to happen.
LISA: Okay.
JOHN: I'll sit here and I'll talk to David
for a month, if I have to talk to David for a month, to
ensure that no harm comes to anyone. And I hope you
believe that.
LISA: I, I do.
JOHN: Because I - and I don't want it to
happen to you, kid.
LISA: Okay.
JOHN: Okay?
LISA: And, listen, what religion are you
anyway -- religion --
JOHN: Why does that enter into it?
LISA: Huh?
JOHN: Why does that enter into it? I'll
tell you if it makes you feel --
LISA: Yeah. I has just wondering if you
guys believe in present truth.
JOHN: I'm Catholic.
LISA: You're Catholic?
JOHN: Yeah.
LISA: Well, do you believe in present truth?
JOHN: Another one of those damn Catholics,
huh?
LISA: Do you ever believe in present truth?
~...420
JOHN: What present truth?
LISA: Present truth that comes from time to
time to different people?
JOHN: You, you're going to have to explain
it to me.
LISA: I have to explain it to you.
JOHN: Well, I'm not being, I'm not --
LISA: No, no. I know.
JOHN: -- being silly. I'm --
LISA: Do you know who started the Catholic
church?
JOHN: The -- yeah, the pope from Jesus
Christ.
LISA: The pope from Jesus Christ?
JOHN: St. Peter was the first pope of the
Catholic church.
LISA: Okay. Well, listen, this is
JOHN: I'm not --
LISA: -- this is --
JOHN: -- lying to you. What research have
you done into the Catholic church?
LISA: A lot.
JOHN: were you raised Catholic?
LISA: No.
JOHN: You don't believe that St. Peter was
the first pope of the Catholic church?
~...-4LISA:
JOHN:
you?
LISA:
JOHN:
LISA:
still believe i
JOHN:
know. What do
LISA:
does that mean?
today, right no
JOHN:
LISA:
JOHN:
what you.mean?
LISA:
JOHN:
religious dogma
LISA:
JOHN:
the truth. Go
LISA:21
I don't really know.
Well, you asked me a question, didn't
Yeah.
I gave you an answer. '
Okay. Listen, do you - but do you
n, in present truth?
What -- I'm asking you because I don't
you mean by present truth?
Present tru-- well, this is -- what
What does it sound like? Present,
w, present, right --
But is this some religious dogma?
NO.
Do I believe in the truth. Is that
Yes. Second Peter, 1:12.
I just asked you if we're talking
and you said no.
No, it isn't. I'm just telling you --
Do I believe in the truth. Tell me
ahead.
No, no. I'm telling you present
truth. There's a lot of truths out there, but what --
JOHN: What is the question you want to ask?
I'll, I'll answer any question you've got. What do you
....422
want me to answer?
LISA: All I want to know --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
LISA: Well, I want you to look at --
JOHN: Yeah. '
LISA: Okay. Is your believing in a religion
that's been around for a lot of th-- a lot of years.
JOHN: Yeah.
LISA: Okay?
JOHN: And I'm not faulting your religion. I
am not faulting yours. Do you under -- and I hope you,
you understand that I really mean that.
LISA: Yes.
JOHN: I feel that whether a person is of
your faith or whether they're Baptist or whether
they're Presbyterian or Methodist or Jewish or whatever
they are, that's their business.
LISA: Yeah.
JOHN: That's their prerogative. And I am
not going to try and sway them one bit from their
beliefs. And I hope you understand that.
LISA: That's, that's good.
JOHN: And I don't want you to try and sway
me from mine. Because I believe in something else.
Now, if I bel-- if -- hey, if I believed in, in, in
your church, that's my business, isn't it?
~...423
LISA: Um-hum.
JOHN: So --
LISA: That's true.
JOHN: So, you know, I don't, I don't
begrudge you or, or try and demean you for your'
religious beliefs, and I think it's wrong for someone
to do that to anyone. You know? And I, and I wish you
well. I really do. I hope we meet again.
LISA: Okay. Thanks.
JOHN: You bet, kid.
LISA TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Didn't want to
talk about my own --
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Hey. who am I talking to?
STEVE: Back to Steve.
JOHN: Hey!
STEVE: What's happening?
JOHN: Gosh, you probably went and took a
break, didn't you? >
STEVE: Well, now and then and from time to
time I, I do get one.
Laughter.!
JOHN: I enjoyed talking to those people.
STEVE: Are you sure?
JOHN: Do you think I'll be able to talk to
any of the people on --
ave24
STEVE: Positively.
JOHN: That's great. That's great. Because
I enjoyed talking to them.
STEVE: I wasn't kid -- I mean, seriously --
JOHN: Let me ask you something. Let me ask
STEVE: Oh, sure.
JOHN: -- you something now.
STEVE: Sure. Go ahead.
JOHN: Are you going to let me hang up the
phone and call you back, and will you talk to me?
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN: The reason I'm saying that is I have
to make a trip.
STEVE: Gotcha.
JOHN: There are certain biological things --
STEVE: I gotcha.
JOHN: -- callings in life.
STEVE: I may not have inspiration, but I
have a little insight.
JOHN: God bless you.
STEVE: Okay. I --
JOHN: Now, if I ring you back in about 15,
20 minutes --
STEVE: I'll be here.
JOHN: will you?
.425
STEVE: I'll be here.
JOHN: Do you think you'll have one or two of
those people for me to talk to, just to say howdy?
STEVE: It's getting late. I could go try to
wake them up. I don't know if they've be very happy.
JOHN: You can be persuasive. I know you
can, if you want to.
STEVE: Well, you know that anybody can go
wake someone up. Whether they'll be happy with you is
another story. Oh, these two girls that you were
talking to, I'll ask them if they'll go to wake
somebody up or something.
JOHN: And I don't, I don't mean to be mean
to them. You know? I just want to -- if they have
somebody --
STEVE: Well, they know. I mean, they've got
to know -- they've been around long enough to know
that, you know, you've got certain designs and lack of
interest in spiritual things. See, we're different, I
guess, aren't we?
JOHN: What do you mean --
STEVE: we --
JOHN: - I have a lack of interest in
spiritual things? You --
STEVE: Well, it's, it's --
JOHN: Don't tell me that now.
92....-126
STEVE: Well, she apparently wasn't through
with talking to you. She was kind of --
JOHN: Hey.
STEVE: -- disappointed when the phone was
being handed to me --
JOHN: Hey.
STEVE: - from what I could tell. Yes?
JOHN: When I come back you tell her to get
back on the phone. I'll talk to her. Okay?
srnvs: All right.
JOHN: I'm serious.
srsvs: Okay.
JOHN: You, you're going to answer it now,
huh?
STEVE: I'll be answering it.
JOHN: I'm going to let you get some sleep
tonight, too.
STEVE: Oh, sounds good.
JOHN: But you got too much last night.
STEVE: Well, let's, let's stay to it a tone
now.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Don't get anymore than me.
JOHN: Hey, I'll call you back in 15 minutes.
STEVE: Okay. David said he still loves you,
John.
...-u27
JOHN: I love him too.
srzvs: All right. And 1'11 --
JOHN: I hope --
STEVE: -- pass it on.
JOHN: -- to see him --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: --soon. Okay.
STEVE: You'll talk to who?
JOHN: Okay?
STEVE: He'd like to see how Jim's doing also
sometime again.
JOHN: Who?
STEVE: Jim. That ATP agent that started
with us.
JOHN: I don't --
STEVE: He's probably not around anymore or
is --
JOHN: I think --
STEVE: -- he or --
JOHN: I think -- I'm trying to think -- he
had to go someplace.
STEVE: Is he going to --
JOHN: I'll find out.
STEVE: Thank you.
JOHN: I'll find out. And, and when I call
you back, I'll let you know.
~..4STEVE: All right.
JOHN: But he normally is, is around here
from like 6 in the morning to 6 in the evening.
STEVE: He is? Okay.
JOHN: But I, I got the impression this
afternoon that he had to go someplace. Whether it was
a trial or something, that he had to --
STEVE
JOHN:
I'll get --
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
CATHY
JOHN:
CATHY
JOHN:
CATHY
JOHN:
CATHY
JOHN:
CATHYUm-hum.
-- to go someplace
Okay.
-- back with you.
Talk to you in 15
Thanks.
Okay, bye.
Bye.
iiiit
Hello?
Hi. ~Who's this?
Cathy.
Cathy?
Uh-huh.
This is John. Is
No, he isn't.
He isn't?
NO.. I'll find out
Steve there?
e.-429
JOHN: I'd told him I was going to call him
back in 15 minutes. And he's not there. Is David
there?
CATHY: Who?
JOHN: David.
CATHY: No.
JOHN: Well, where are they? David's
supposed to be right next to the telephone.
CATHY: Well, I'm - they - I don't know who
David is.
JOHN: You don't know who David is, huh?
CATHY: No.
JOHN: Okay. I'm sorry to bother you.
CATHY: Um-hum.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
iiiit
LISA: Hello?
JOHN: Hello.
LISA: Hi. _Do you want to talk to Steve?
JOHN: Well, who's this?
LISA: This is Lisa again.
JOHN: No. I want to talk to you. He said
that I was too abrupt in --
Clicking sound.!
JOHN: Hello?
Dial tone.!
.430
*****
LISA: Hello?
JOHN: Lisa?
LISA: Yeah.
JOHN: What did you do to me?
LISA: No. I just got disconnected somehow.
Somebody must have stepped on the line.
JOHN: You threw the phone against the wall,
huh?
LISA: Yeah, I did.
JOHN: I didn't mean to be abrupt with you.
Go ahead, if you had someth-- Steve said there was
something else that you wanted to say.
LISA: Oh, no. That's okay. I realize, you
know, you have your beliefs and I have mine and --
JOHN: Hey --
LISA: -- what's just like -- that's --
JOHN: -- it'll all work out. Your beliefs
and my beliefs, they'll all work out, huh?
LISA: Yeah, because there's a God in heaven,
you know.
JOHN: You got it. And he loves us all,
doesn't he?
LISA: Umhum.
JOHN: That's what counts. That's the bottom
line. If, if Steve's there, go ahead and put him on
~..-awith me.
LISA: Okay.
JOHN: Thank you.
LISA: Sure.
STEVE: John.
JOHN: Feel much better.
STEVE: You do? Good. Good.
JOHN: I do. I do.
STEVE: Oh. Good. So, it's after the
pumpkin hour here.
JOHN: It is?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Are we going to turn into something?
STEVE: Well, I, I'm hoping so.
JOHN: Yeah? Well, I do --
STEVE: Aren't you worn out after this long
day? A
JOHN: No. No. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.
I mean, I, I enjoyed talking to David and -- and I
enjoyed talking to you.
STEVE: Where did you say home was for you?
JOHN: Home?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Lafayette, Louisiana.
STEVE: That's right. Louisiana.
JOHN: Down in the bay-- not Indiana now.
I...32
STEVE: No, no, no. I got it straight. I
got it straight.
JOHN: Down in the bayou.
STEVE: Yeah. David wanted to know if you
eat crawdads. - I
JOHN: You tell David that they are crawfish.
STEVE TO DAVID: He says I'm to tell you
they're crawfish.
DAVID: Not discernible!.
JOHN: And I know --
STEVE: He says he knows.
JOHN: I -- he probably uses them for bait.
Where I'm from they --
STEVE TO DAVID: He says you use them for
bait. Because he wants to know -- he says you probably
do it where he's from --
STEVE TO JOHN: They what?
JOHN: Eat them.
STEVE TO DAVID: They eat them.
JOHN: That's right.
STEVE: Okay.
DAVID: Not discernible!.
JOHN: So, are we going to get to talk to
anybody?
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: I'll talk to David again if he, if he
....a33
wants to. I'll talk to him again. You know what I
mentioned to you.
STEVE: John, you know what we're supposed to
do? He asked to --
JOHN: You're supposed to sleep probably.
Yeah.
STEVE: Well, yeah. He wanted us to read
Isaiah 65 and 6 to you because of mentioning how you
eat those crawfish.
JOHN: Never mind. Never mind. I know what
it's going to say.
STEVE: What is it going to say?
JOHN: They're going to poison me.
STEVE: Well, it's close. And no cigars.
JOHN: Hey. I don't smoke those either.
Well, you got --
STEVE: You can smoke a cigar, but don't eat
those things.
JOHN: Now, see? The cigar won't kill me,
huh?
STEVE: No, it won't.
JOHN: No. I'd have a hard time convincing
STEVE: Hey --
JOHN: -- somebody of that.
STEVE: Hey, get this.
n-pal34
JOHN: Go ahead.
STEVE: It says here for behold the Lord will
come with fire and with his chariots like a whirlwind
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- to render his anger with fury and
his rebuke with flames of fire.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: For by fire and by his sword will the
Lord plead with all flesh. And the slaying of the Lord
shall be many. They that sanctify themselves and
purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the
midst --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- eating swine's flesh and the
abomination and the mouse shall be consumed together,
sayeth the Lord.
JOHN: It didn't say crawfish.
STEVE: If you read Deuteronomy, Chapter 14,
or Leviticus 11 --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- you will see it there. Well --
JOHN: Well, will it say crawfish?
STEVE: Oh, yeah. Anything that doesn't have
tins or scales is bad for the body. See, if you eat a
pig, a pig is a, a --
~...¢nO I
JOHN: Oh, I know. I know.
STEVE: -- cesspool. It eats dead, decaying
fecal matter.
some
sort
been
They
eatsJOHN: Oh, yeah.
STEVE: It eats anything. So, God created
animals to actually keep the world clean. They
of clean. Other animals have been allowed
added to the diet for man's benefit.
JOHN: Well, you don't think crawfish were?
STEVE: Oh, definitely not. Definitely not
eat dead --
JOHN: Oysters?
STEVE: They eat - oh, another thing that
dead, decaying matter down in the ocean is
JOHN: Oysters?
STEVE: Oh, yeah. Not discernible!.
JOHN: Are you going to tell me --
STEVE: Rules that -- in fact --
JOHN: What_about well, catfish?
STEVE: And as far as -- for --
JOHN: - catfish have fins.
STEVE: Do they have scales though?
JOHN: Su-- catfish?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Yeah, they have scales.
STEVE: Are you posit--- have
~....4scales?
dead crap36
STEVE TO DAVID: Do catfish have fins and
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: N0.
STEVE: No scales.
JOHN: No scales?
STEVE: No scales.
JOHN: You mean, no catfish?
STEVE: They eat bad they eat a lot of
on the bottom of the rivers and --
JOHN: Steven?
STEVE: - places. Yeah?
JOHN: I guess oysters and beer are
definitely out, huh?
STEVE: Beer is okay. Beer is all right.
JOHN: In moderation?
STEVE: You got now, he said it the same
time you did.
time.
aren't weJOHN: Huh?
STEVE: You_and Dave said it at the same
JOHN: We're on the same wavelength then,
STEVE: I, I'm hoping so.
JOHN: well, that's the - me, too.
STEVE: I'm hoping so.
JOHN: This is going to be depressing, going
...4back --37
STEVE: He says that - he says a little wine
is good with the Eucharist.
that.
what I
to, to
people
peopleJOHN: Well, I, I, I'll go along with that.
STEVE TO DAVID: He says he'll go along with
JOHN: I'll go along with that. Listen.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: What do you, what do you think about
mentioned to you before? And I
5--
STEVE: Well, do you want to
here?didn't mean it
talk to a few
JOHN: Yeah, or that -- or David.
STEVE T0 DAVID: He'd like to talk to a few
here or you, if it's possible.
DAVID: Indiscernible!.
JOHN: Hey, I don't want him
playing second fiddle,
STEVE: Yes. He said you --
studying Habakkuk.
JOHN: I don't, I don't want
that he's playing second fiddle now.
STEVE TO DAVID: He, he saysto think he's
he said we were
him to think
he don't want
you to think he's playing second fiddle now.
DAVID: Well, well, tell him to -- if he
.-438
wants to listen, I'll read it. He can listen along.
STEVE: He says now, if you will, he'll read
it, if you want to listen along here.
JOHN: Read what?
STEVE: Habakkuk. It's very short. It's
very short.
JOHN: Some, somebody, you know, picked up
the other phone and was playing some - they said
something about Saturday Night Live or something else
on there?
STEVE: Is that right?
JOHN: Yeah. I don't know who inside there
was --
STEVE: John, you're all right. Here he is.
Okay?
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE TO DAVID: Here he is.
Clicking sound.!
JOHN: Don't disconnect --
DAVID: Hello?
JOHN: Hi.
DAVID: Hey, John. Steve says he just don't
know about you.
JOHN: He doesn't?
DAVID: Yeah. He says he likes you, but he
just don't know about you.
.4O
39
JOHN: Hey. He'll be able to find out
someday, though, huh?
DAVID: Yeah. Okey-doke. Aah.
JOHN: Are you feeling a little better?
DAVID: Are ya'll, are ya'l1 ready? ,
JOHN: You're feeling better tonight, aren't
you?
DAVID: Well, I, I feel kind of a lot better,
you know. I've, I've, you know, been able to get up a
little bit and try to -- it's just this top part of the
leg that's been --
JOHN: Did, did --
DAVID: You know where
JOHN: Does --
DAVID: You know where
you exactly where I got hit, all
JOHN: Where?
DAVID: Okay. You see
your left leg is? Okay?
JOHN: Yeah.you --
your -- let me tell
right?
where your, see where
DAVID: Do you know where the hip bone is?
JOHN: Yes, sir.
DAVID: Okay. Now, when you're going towards
your belly button?
JOHN: Yes, sir.
DAVID: Come over about four inches.
.-140
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: I got hit right there in the belly --
JOHN: Just the left side where you'd have an
acka-- appendectomy scar on the right side. Just about
the opposite, huh? '
DAVID: Right. Okay. So, you four - about
four inches from the belly to the left.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: All right.
JOHN: And it went which way?
DAVID: And it went in. It went in and hit
the hip bone.
JOHN: Uhhuh?
DAVID: The top of it. Because that thing --
you know, I'll tell you.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And then it came out my back --
DAVID TO LISA: How many inches is it from
the middle of my hip to the back again, Lisa? About
what?
LISA: Not discernible!.
DAVID: Well, like if, if I'm laying on my
back, I'm laying on it. It's just a -- it's, it's a,
it's a so-- it's a big caliber. I guess it's about --
was a .45-er. I don't know.
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: What would you
.441
say, about a .45?
smaller.JOHN: It should have been something a little
DAVID: You think 9mm?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: Probably a hypersonic then.
JOHN: Something -- I -- well, I don't know,
but that's what the round should have been, probably.
there --
bled over
ago, that
that they
couple of
different
also?DAVID: Yeah. And so, anyway, it went in
JOHN: There's no infection though, huh?
DAVID: No. NO.
JOHN: GOOd.
DAVID: I let it - you know, like I said, I
three qu-- three pints or so.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: And I learned that from a long time
any time you start covering them up and all
don't bleed clean.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: So, like I said, it - now, I bled a
blankets and - because I laid in three
places on the floor.
JOHN: But it, it hit, hit you in the wrist
DAVID: Yeah. Well, then, the shell a, a
42
round -- second --
JOHN: Or, or another round?
DAVID: Well, that was a completely different
bullet.
JOHN: Oh. Oh . '
DAVID: See, first, at first, I thought I'd
been shot twice.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But, actually, what we figured out
what it did was I got shot and -- several rounds were
fired at me, because it went, it went in the front, and
then went straight out the back. That's what happened.
JOHN: Uh-huh. Did you --
DAVID: And --
JOHN: -- get the use of that suture kit at
all?
DAVID Huh?
JOHN: Did you --
DAVID: No. -What, what they're saying is is
that it's already swollen up and it, it's already
started to heal.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: It's about a -- oh, good over a half-
an-inch in gash. If somebody was to take above your
wrist there and just make a clean cut like a little
ditch --.
..-443
JOHN: Going up your forearm?
DAVID: Going sideways, on the side of it,
the side of my thumb.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Up, up above the thumb. But my whole
thumb is totally numb.
JOHN: Really?
DAVID: So, it's just numb now.
JOHN: Not discernible!.
DAVID: Yeah. See, what happened was, what
happened was I went to, I went to see what was going
on. You know, I was just I was walking around
seeing what was going on. And when I, when I went up
one place, then that's when some - you know, I looked
out the window. Some rounds came up and that's, and
that's when they hit me there.
JOHN: You think you got your hip broken?
DAVID: I think it's either chipped or
cracked -- '
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: - at the very top of it.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: And, of course, the back hole was a
lot bigger than the front hole. It was like I went
outside not discernible! --
JOHN: You don't have any of those girls in
.-.444
there that, you know, have some medical background that
could really tell you whether you, you broke a bone
there, huh?
DAVID: Oh, we've got two --
JOHN: You think you just chipped -- '
DAVID: - we've got two RNs. We've got two
Registered Nurses here.
JOHN: You think it just may have just
chipped it a little bit?
DAVID: I don't know. It's just hard to
tell.
JOHN: well, when you tried walking?
DAVID: Well, see, the way I have to walk --
JOHN: Could you put any weight on it?
DAVID: Not only when it's straight up and
down.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: It's all, all from the - it's from
the hip belt - -
DAVID T0 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I'll be right
with you on a second.
DAVID TO JOHN: From the belt up is just big
swollen.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: You know, it's just, it's just real
big swollen.
...¢45
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: So, anyway -- so -
JOHN: Well, you sure sounded a lot better
tonight than you did, did last night.
DAVID: It's, it's hyperkinetics.
Hyperkinetics.
JOHN: It is?
DAVID: Mind power. Mind power.
JOHN: The mind over the body, huh?
DAVID: Well, yeah. Plus the mind over the
-- so, it's when you treat your body descent, you know,
you heal faster, too. Or maybe God's just healing me.
I know people are scoffing and laughing, but --
JOHN: What?
DAVID: -- let them get shot like this and
see.
JOHN: Well, I don't think anybody's laughing
about it at all?
DAVID: I mean, what - it's all on the
radio. They're going, ah, he wasn't shot or --
.:ro'rm= Well -- '
DAVID: -- or emergency Indiscernible!, oh,
yeah.
JOHN: I'll tell you what --
DAVID: we was thinking about, we was
thinking about sending y'all some pictures.
.446
JOHN: The media is -- you know, you take the
media with a grain of salt. But if you want to send
some pictures out -- I'll tell you. Do it.
DAVID: I think I might.
JOHN: Do it. I mean ~-
DAVID: They were, they were thinking about
these holes.
JOHN: Hey. Send them out.
DAVID: He appears to be on my side.
JOHN: I did -- hey. That's, that's carrying
it a little far, isn't it?
DAVID: Yeah. And it's a bullet hole this
time instead of a spear.
JOHN: I'm not going --
navxn: Okey-doke.
JOHN: I'm not going to give you any, any
sponge with --
DAVID: Vinegar.
JOHN: - bitter, bitter wine either, am I?
DAVID: No. Gall.
JOHN: You got it.
DAVID: Vinegar.
JOHN: The no. If, if -- seriously, if
you want to, if you want to send out some pictures, I'd
be happy to send them show them to some medical
people, too. You know what I, what I mentioned a
,447
little earlier?
DAVID: What was we talking about?
JOHN: God, I guess we mentioned a bunch of
things. But what I talked about, if you wanted to send
out a message. ,
DAVID: Oh, yeah. Well, like I said, it's,
it's kind of a --
JOHN: Get up go ahead.
DAVID: It was kind of a you know, I don't
want to, I don't want to - you know, what I gave in
the first message --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: -- was serious enough. I mean,
nobody can deny that Psalms 45 was the first seal. You
know, nobody in their right mind. Hey. Psalms 45.
David, a great king, was inspired of God to write in
behalf of God, and surely God could write himself. God
wrote the law with his own finger. And then God told
Moses to write the laws afterwards. But, you know,
it's kind of like this. We heard ministers the other
day, lots of them, get on the phone and --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: - well, ah, this and this and ah
some theologians in the apocrypha believe that, ah,
this, that, and that and this, and we believe, and we
feel, beh, beh, beh. And I just come straight across
-448
the table, going, now, what's this little key of David
right here? Let's start with Psalms 45, putting little
key in, open the
was Revelations.
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
you --
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
know that, don't
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:door. Look here at Psalms 45. Say it
Hey --
See?
Let me, let me tell you --
And people go like wow --
You --
-- it's right.
-- you can respond to that.
I win. You lose.
You know, you can respond to that if
The first point's mine, right, John?
Hey.
Right?
Whatever.
Did I win the first point?
Well --
Hey, seven strikes you're out. You
you?
Seven strikes you're out?
Seven strikes, you're out forever.
Nah.
Yep. God's going to whup your
.449
behind, going to burn --
JOHN: Yeah, but he --
DAVID: -- you.
JOHN: -- he won't be getting a fresh one,
I'll tell you that, to whip on. '
DAVID: I tell you.
JOHN: But if you want to, to respond to what
you saw on the news or anything else, I, I --
DAVID: Why would you want to do that for me
anyway?
JOHN: well, did you understand --
DAVID: Because you don't believe --
JOHN: Did you understand --
DAVID: -- my not discernible! --
JOHN: -- everything I said that --
DAVID: You said send some girls out and send
some kids out, and we're, we're going to come out.
JOHN: I know you are.
DAVID: You see, we're just waiting on God
because God, when we come out --
JOHN: I know you are.
DAVID: -- God's going to give you a chance
to judge us, and then God is going to show you what
he's talking about.
JOHN: Well, I hope so.
DAVID: For right now the truth, the seed is
.450
spreading. And, you know, people have an opportunity
right now to look at the situation, to see how you're
working, and they don't know nothing about us.
JOHN: No, they don't.
DAVID: When, when we come out --
JOHN: Other than what you told them on that
tape.
DAVID: Right. And when we --
JOHN: That's the only thing. And, and if --
DAVID: well, that's what -- you know, God's
word sounds pretty far indiscernible! first -- you
know, hey, don't - don't be stupid.
JOHN: But you've got a lot of people that
are just sitting out there saying, aw, what's this guy
talking about. And, and they, and they take it in kind
of a frivolous vein when they shouldn't --
DAVID: Ooh --
JOHN: -- take it in a frivolous vein.
DAVID: You know, Psalms -- you know what
Psalms 1 says? Blessed is the man that walketh not in
the counsel of the ungodly nor sits in the seat of the
scorners. Right? Or stands in the way of sinners, but
whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law
on what he meditates day and night. You know, why the
law? It says he shall be as a tree planted by the
waters and his leaf shall not fade. Everything he does
.....-451
shall prosper. The ungodly are not so, but like a
chaff which the wind blows away. Therefore, the
ungodly will not stand in the judgment nor sinners in
the congregation of the saints. The way of the ungodly
shall perish. Now, it's very ungodly not to pay
attention to scripture. It's very ungodly to mock or
to lightly esteem the fact that Psalms 45 is the first
seal. I cannot help it --
JOHN: You've seen and heard it, though,
haven't you?
DAVID: - I cannot help it that people
disregard - why -- why do you think the second seal
says what it says? Huh? Why do you think that you're
fulfilling the very thing God says you're going to
fulfill before he beats your butt? You don't even know
the second seal, do you?
JOHN: No.
DAVID: Okay. Well, I'd like to show you.
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID: Okay. we're going to, we're going to
alter our route here for a second. We're going to show
John the second seal. Let's turn to Revelation 6,
verses 3. I appreciate this, John, for my sake --
JOHN: Well, I do too.
DAVID: It's for my sake too, because I
really would like you to -- the light to turn on. I'd
....,¢52
like to see you in the kingdom, you know? so, you
know, it's -- we're all made of flesh and blood and we
all get this one life to
and then, you know, then
judgment. If we haven't
righteousness, the truthlearn about good and evil and,
we've got to stand for a
accepted Christ's v
of God, then we're going to
lose. Okay. Verse 3. Revelation 6, verse 3.
JOHN: I'm there.
DAVID: And when he had opened the second
seal, I heard the second beast say: Come and see. And
there went out another horse that was red. And power
was given to him and set thereon to take peace from the
earth, and that they should kill one another. And
there was given unto him a great sword. Again, it may
appear to be a subject of violence, just like the first
seal may appear. For, remember, if God makes any
violent threats against us, it's so that we might fear
him so that we might receive his mercy. Correct?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay. That's what you're doing out
there. You're showing me a show of arms so we might
fear you so we might come out to receive your mercy.
I, I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Now, let's
turn to the --
JOHN: Well, I don't think I'm talking mercy
though, huh? Not me or, or we. We're not talking --
I-453
DAVID: Well --
JOHN: -- mercy.
DAVID: -- at least, at least the mercy of
the judicial system.
JOHN: And, and I hope you understand and --
that what I tell you is --
DAVID: Oh, I realize that. I, I've been
hurt before. Don't
JOHN: -- is true.
DAVID: - don't not discernible!.
JOHN: You know, that --
DAVID: I'm not asking for no, no bequittal
or anything like that or amnesty. What I've done, I'm
willing - ready, ready and willing to pay for.
JOHN: Well, whatever that may be, huh?
DAVID: A lot less than one shall think --
JOHN: Well, okay.
DAVID: -- that I've done.
JOHN: You know, I, I hope it is. And, and
Q3
92
DAVID: That's why I want to talk to Robert.
You know --
JOHN: You're going to get the opportunity to
DAVID: I did everything in my power to keep
you guys from making that mistake.
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JOHN: I know. You said that you had a lot
of dialogue with Robert about it. And, and I, and I
know he's taking --
DAVID: He was the one --
JOHN: -- this thing very diffic-- it's very
difficult for him.
DAVID: Well, you tell him I still love him.
JOHN: Well, I'm sure he -- that he believes
you do. You know, I can't tell him. He's --
DAVID: He's going to, he's going to --
JOHN: -- he's not around Waco anymore, I'm
afraid, but --
DAVID: Well, you need to get him back --
clicking sound.!
DAVID: Hello? Hello, Robert? Okay. Are
you there?
JOHN: Hello?
DAVID: All right.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: Now, are we in the book of Zechariah?
JOHN: No. We're in the book of Revelation.
DAVID: Well, now, let's turn to Zechariah
and let's bust this seal.
JOHN: Okay. Be patient with me.
DAVID: I will.
JOHN: Hang on. Almost there.
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DAVID: John, I don't mind if you're a --
JOHN: We're there.
DAVID: -- Catholic. I don't mind if you're
a Catholic, John. I just hope you're a --
JOHN: Well, I hope not.
DAVID: -- a good Catholic.
JOHN: I hope not. And I hope I am.
DAVID: Now, a good Catholic believes in the
3191;, don't they?
JOHN: You bet. And the Ten Commandments.
DAVID: And the Ten Commandments. Although
the sa-- sabbath -- you changed the sabbath a little
bit, but, nevertheless, still you've got a sabbath in
there somewhere, right?
JOHN: I'll, I'll do you a favor. I'll go to
church on Saturday. How's that?
DAVID: Laughter.!
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: Well, you ought to go to church every
day too, just like we do.
JOHN: We have an --
DAVID: We keep it daily.
JOHN: -- evening mass on Saturday. How's
that?
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: Maybe we're swaying a little bit, huh?
92...456
DAVID: Well, like I say, there's a narrow
path and a broad path. So, let's see if we can't
resolve it.
JOHN: Chapter 1.
DAVID: Chapter 1. Now, it was in the eighth
month of the second year of Darius, which was one of
the kings of Middle Persia, came the word of the Lord
to Zechariah, the son of Berekiah, the son of Iddo, the
Prophet, saying: The Lord has been sore displeased
with your fathers. Okay. So, God was angry with the
Jews, right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Therefore, say though
Thus sayeth the Lord of Hosts. Turn ye
the Lord of Hosts, and I will turn into
Lord of Hosts. Kind of a barter there,
JOHN: Um-hum.unto
into
Y0",
huh?them:
me, said
sayeth the
DAVID: How do we turn to God, though? How
will they turn? Well, be not as your fathers and to
whom the former prophets have cried, saying: Thus
sayeth the Lord of Hosts, turn ye now from evil ways
and from your doings. But they did not hear nor
hearken unto me, sayeth the Lord. So, they wouldn't
listen to prophets, would they?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: No. Your fathers, where are they?
sad57
Dead. And the prophets, do they live forever? No.
JOHN: No.
DAVID: But my words and my statutes which I
commanded to my servants the prophets, did they not
take hold of your father? Isaiah the prophets foretold
a battle that overthrow the Jews if they didn't listen.
And they were. And after 70 years, all of a sudden
they came out of captivity, and now Zechariah is
prophesying. And they returned and said, like has the
Lord of Hosts ought to do unto us according to our ways
and according to our doing, so hath he dealt with us.
See, prophecy is important, isn't it?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Upon the fourandtwentieth day of
the eleventh month, which is in the month Shebat, in
the second year of Darius came the word of the Lord
unto Zechariah, the son of Berekiah, the son of Iddo,
the prophet, saying: I saw by night and, behold, a man
riding upon a red horse. Isn't that complicated? Huh?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: It's a kid's game, isn't it?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: who do you think this guy is on the
red horse?
JOHN: Speckled in white.
DAVID: And he stood among the myrtle trees
,4S8
that were under the bottom. See, in Jerusalem there's
a valley called the Kidron.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: Okay. It runs right into - between
the Mount of Olives and, and, and the Mount Mariah
phonetic!. And behind --
JOHN: I only wish I could go over there and
see it.
DAVID: Oh, any time, you know. Helal's
phonetic! a good airline.
JOHN: well, you --
DAVID: And behind him there were red horses.
Now, the Hebrew word speckled, the translators in the
English, it's pale. Okay? That there's a word
translation. Get your dictionaries out and look. In
other words, red horses, pale and white. Then said I:
O my Lord, what are these? What does this mean? You
know, what are these? What are these horses? What do
they what does it mean? The angel that talked unto
me said unto me: I will show thee what these be. And
the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and
said: These are they who the Lord has sent to walk to
and tro through the earth. Uhhuh. A little
spiritualism here. You ever see horses walking to and
fro through the earth?
JOHN: Umhum.
..-1O O
59
DAVID: You ever go around and see all these
horses? And they answered the angel of the Lord --
now, horses don't talk, do they?
JOHN: Not likely.
DAVID: These horses do though, don't they?
They answered to the angel of the Lord that stood among
the myrtle trees and said: we have walked to and fro
through the earth and, behold, all the earth sits still
and is at rest. Well, remember the Book of Nahum?
JOHN: Hmm.
DAVID: There's a group that says though that
it be likewise quiet and likewise many? See, they're
hiding. You know, they're being real quiet. It says
they camp out in the hedges, you know, and the bushes
and everything, that God's fixing to come and burn them
up. Remember?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Because they're fighting against the
Lord. They don't know that yet, but they're fighting
against the man that brought good tidings. Now, these
horses, the way they travel, because everywhere the
ip}; goes they go. Everywhere there's a scripture,
there's a revelation of Jesus Christ, which is a
mystery of God God declared aforetime to who? His
servants the prophets. Right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
»...-460
DAVID: Then the angel of the Lord answered
and said: O Lord of Hosts, how long will thy not have
mercy on Jerusalem and on the citizens of Judah,
against which thou has had indignation these three
score and ten years? For 70 years God allowed Judea to
be led into captivity into Babylon. Well, they still
have to go through Middle Persia, Greece, Rome, Europe,
and sometime during the times that Europe still stands
as a broken nation.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: Then God the Rock will set up a
kingdom. And the Lord answered the angel that talked
with me with good words and comfortable words, and so
the angel communed with me and says: Cry thou: Saying
thus the Lord of Hosts, I am jealous for Jerusalem and
for Zion with a great jealousy. And I am very sore
displeased with the heathen that are at what?
JOHN: That are at ease.
DAVID: Because they don't care about these
horses, do they? i
JOHN: No. Kind of taking a lackadaisical
attitude.
DAVID: Right. For I was but a little
displeased and they helped ford the what? Of - so,
God's being afflicted, isn't he?
JOHN: Um-hum.
..-¢61
DAVID: Therefore, thus sayeth the Lord, I am
returned to Jerusalem's mercies and my house shall be
built in it sayeth the Lord of Hosts, and a line shall
be stretched forth upon Jerusalem. Cry yet, saying --
cry yet, saying: Thus sayeth the Lord of Hosts are
you there?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: My cities through prosperity, she
have be spread abroad. And the Lord shall yet comfort
Zion and shall yet choose Jerusalem. It doesn't say
when, though, right?
JOHN: No.
DAVID: Then lifted up mine eyes and saw and,
behold, four horns. Uhuh.
JOHN: which means?
DAVID: Well, let's find out. And I said
unto the angel that talked with me: What be these?
And he answered me, these are the horns which have
scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. Well, what
were the four empires that scattered Judah, Jerusalem,
and Israel? Babylon, Middle Persia, Greece, and Rome.
Huh. And the Lord showed me four carpenters. You
know, carpenters build, right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Then said I: What come these to do?
And he spake, saying, these are the horns which have
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scattered Judah, stood nobly, then lift up his head.
But these are come to fray them. To scare them. To
cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up
their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it. Now,
wait a minute. How can it be that Babylon, Middle
Persia, Greece, and Rome can come back to Jerusalem one
day to try to scare the Jews, and at the same time
scatter the Gentiles? Well, it's, it's a situation
you'll find in other prophecies that deals with Amon
Hoab, right? The Arab nations want Jerusalem. Okay?
And unless the empires of Babylon, Middle Persia,
Greece, and Rome combine together and defend Jerusalem,
the Arab nations would overthrow it. Now, this is
something very serious. Now, here's the next part of
it. I lift up mine eyes again and looked to behold a
man with a measuring line in his hand. And said I:
Whither goest thou? And he said unto me: To measure
Jerusalem, to see what the breadth thereof and what is
the height -- length thereof. To see how big it is.
Because no doubt he wants to populate it, right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: And behold the angel that talked with
me went forth. Another angel went up to meet him and
said to them: Run, speak to this young man, saying
Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for
the multitude of men and cattle therein. Now, we can't
.4be deceived. Jerusalem now is - the one --
End of Tape #74!