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WI st M.Pl H: A11 ; Kelsi; 92
D R E"92 1
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
March 3 , 1993
TAPES 31A, 32
i 1 6 2
Tape 31A!
JIM: No, you know, really I'm
up, you know, I'm an agent in Dallas and
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
' JIM: - you know, I mean, you
don't know that much about it. But you,
about it. What is it?being straight
California --
know, I just
you tell me
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I mean, well, there's
nothing for me to tell because I really - I don't know
other than what the report said, that someone came to
the door and arrested them apparently.
JIM: Oh, really?
MR. SCHNEIDER: And when I heard that,
arrested them for what? Star, don't stand on the
pillow, please.
JIM: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Stay.
JIM: Well, you know, just like Rachel told
me a few minutes ago, she said last night she saw on
the TV where the, they said 20 children left on a
school bus.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JIM: I said yeah, I saw that too. I saw the
news say that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JIM: And they filmed the bus driving away.
QM § 3
You know, they just make up stuff. I don't know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know what amazed me
though in watching that interview you asked us to watch
on TV?
* JIM: Right, um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That - who is the guy that
had the ATF jacket on?
JIM: Oh yeah, he's one of
the
MR. SCHNEIDER: What's his name again?
JIM: - he's one of the commanders there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that particular
commander said that our guys in '87 attacked the
Sheriff's Department, that the battle was between them
and the - and our --
JIM: Well, that's not right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, if --
JIM: Yeah, I know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- how, how is a person going
to do in any court of law when even ahead of time all
the world's being told statements there's - I mean,
seriously?
JIM: No, we know -- hey listen I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Here's, here's supposed to be
an, an efficient arm of the government that's for the
people, for the protection of the people and stuff.
-i ¬" 4Whenpheard and saw that I mean --
JIM: No, I understand, Steve, but that's why
we have an impartial jury.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, but impartial jury?
But I mean, you, you that is so simple to get the
facts. Even the guy --
JIM: Hey, I've already talked to the sheriff
and, you know, Sunday the sheriff came over. He was
concerned about you guys.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JIM: And I talked to the sheriff and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yourself about that incident?
JIM: I talked to the sheriff myself about
that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Umhum.
JIM: And do you know what he told me?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, what did he tell you?
JIM: I'm going to tell you what he told me.
He said, "Those folks out there at Mount Carmel have
never caused us one bit of trouble."
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's true. .
JIM: That's what he told me. And he said in
'87 or '88 this guy Roden, I don't know his first name.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Ben Roden.
JIM: Yeah, and he, he got in a conflict with
you guys, there, there was some kind of gunfire and,
iand there was a trial.5
MR. SCHNEIDER: And it was all directed by a
man by the name of Dickerson, the Sheriff Dickerson.
JIM: Well, he didn't, he didn't tell me
that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, of course he's not
going to tell you that. our guys heard that this nutty
Ben Roden had dug up a grave on the property.
JIM: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: We were at another place.
Oh, his name was George Roden, I'm sorry.
JIM: What, what did he dig up a grave for?
MR. SCHNEIDER: He -- the guy's
wanted to challenge David here to see who
this body. And he even called him up and
know, made him look like he - well, justloony and he
could raise
David, you
what he is.
He says, "Not today, George" and hung up on him.
JIM: Well, the - you know, the full facts of all
that case are on the record and, you know, you --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah, but if they're
all on record then, I mean, I'm, I'm hearing everything
but what actually happened.
JIM: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, that's the strange
thing about it. So I mean, and then even to this very
time what he said to all the press, I mean, I'm sitting
0 0 6
here - the battle was between the Sheriff's Department
and, and our few guys here, never.
JIM: Well, okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean -
JIM: No, I know that's --
MR. SCHNEIDER: it's awesome.
JIM: - I know that's not true.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That, that wasn't the only
misstatement, too. There was a couple more major ones
by him also and I'm, I'm sitting there totally
astounded by it.
JIM: Yeah, okay. Well, what else? Was
there anything else?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, anyway, it doesn't it
hardly matters to me, you know?
JIM: I'll pass the word on, I mean you
know I will --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JIM: -- that it's inaccurate. You know,
I'll pass the word on and tell them that's inaccurate.
You said this and, and that's not what happened.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But does it really matter
though, Jim, really?
JIM: Well, well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, does it really --
JIM: - I, I know how you feel, but what he
said is not going to matter. I mean, come on, he's
not, he's not --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, I mean not
ultimately.
4
JIM: No, he's not the jury, he's not the
judge, you know, he doesn't control any of that.
bit about
you know,
you know,MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I got to hear a little
what David was sharing with you.
JIM: Yeah, um-hum. I, I told him, I said,
I, I understand a.little better. I'm not --
he told me that he, he couldn't provide his
teaching in an hour and it would take much, much
longer.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's really true. I mean,
here's the testimony by so many men that came and went
In the final days it's going to be understood --
JIM: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- those that choose to
really want to know something they got to make a
commitment at some time.
just head
about thosJIM: Right, I understand.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But anyway --
JIM: But anyway, I think --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I should -- I was going to
downstairs. I'd better let you find out
e dogs rotting out there.
§ SC 8
JIM: Okay. Hey, thanks for hanging in there
with me.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, no problem.
JIM: Okay, Steve.
* MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Do you want to --
should I -- do you want to talk to someone else or --
JIM: No, David needs a break. I'm going to
talk to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll give you a break,
too. You probably are worn our for at least all that
time.
JIM: Well, maybe I'll take a short break and
check on the dogs. Will, will you guys leave somebody
near the phone if we need you?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JIM: Okay, and listen, if there's - and
David did tell me after he sent Mark out that if
there's anybody that wants to go out, he's going to
send them out. so --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, most definitely.
JIM: -- so, you know, just ask around and
if --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JIM: -- if there is anybody or anybody --
children you want --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
just go ah
smooth and
Dave?
phone and
didn't hea
debug it.
down: brin"' 9
JIM: - you know, just tell me and we'll
ead and get it going. And --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right, okay.
JIM: -- and, you know, that's, that's real
, you know, no conflicts and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: What was that you're saying,
Indiscernible voice in background.!
MR. SCHNEIDER: He says tell him to bring his
we'll keep on bugging you and using it.
JIM: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, we'll bug it.
JIM: Oh, you'll bug it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, debug it, de-bug it. I
r him.
JIM: Oh, bring a phone, debug it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, bring a phone and we'll
JIM: Wait a minute, I got to write this one
g a phone and de-bug it. Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JIM: And I'll check on the dogs.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, thanks.
JIM: Okay. See you, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, bye-bye.
Phones hung up.!
sure.
children?
OVBI .*****
Telephone ringing!
SITA: Hello?
HENRY: Hello, Rachel?
SITA: It's not Rachel.
HENRY: who is this?
SITA:
HENRY: Who is this?
SITA: Sita.
HENRY:
SITA: Henry?
HENRY: Um-hum.
SITA: Hi.
HENRY: How are you?
SITA: I'm doing fine.
HENRY: Okay.
SITA: Huh?
HENRY: You don't sound
SITA: I don't know.
HENRY: Are you anxious
Are you, are you --
SITA: I just want --
HENRY: -- a little bit
SITA: I'm just anxiousHello, Rachel?
Who is this, please?
Sita, this is Henry. How are you?
like you're real
to see your, your
down on that?
this thing to get
HENRY: Sure, well, that makes sense. That
makes a lot of sense. I know you have concerns, I know
your, your primary concerns have to be with your
children. I think that they're, you know, in foster
care and I think that should be good, you know, in good
shape, but of course you're going to miss them.
SITA: What?
HENRY: I'm saying that they're in good shape
and I know being a good parent, you have to be
concerned about them.
A SITA: I'm sorry, can you speak a little bit
- I can't hardly hear you.
HENRY: Okay. Hold on a second. I'm saying
being a good parent, you must be concerned about them.
SITA: Well, I try, try to be a good parent,
but --
HENRY: Well, I'm sure that you are, I'm sure
that you are. Kids are very important to all of us.
Family is very important. Anybody that's a good
Christian has a, has a sincere interest in seeing that,
that the welfare of their children is, is, you know, is
taken care of.
SITA: Well, what I have heard on the radio
really, I don't know if I did the right thing.
HENRY: Of course you did the right thing.
You know, as, as --
fffvw
12
SITA: I know they're safe out there, but the
way I heard on the radio the way they've been treated,
it really -- oh, God.
HENRY: Well, I think you're just in a
difficult position and as a good parent you have to do
whatever you feel is the best thing for your, for your
kids. Sometimes decisions are difficult to make but I
think you're trying to put yourself in a, in a
situation of what is the best thing for my kids and I
think that you've done that and I think that that's
good.
SITA: I thought so when I heard all the
comments where are they going and they're putting --
they're
I heard
I don't
my kids
wants their
don't.
whole thing
your kids.
and I think
to happen.
realizequestioning them --I heard so much different --
so much different kind of news on the radio and
know what to believe, if you guys going to keep
safe and not to harass them.
HENRY: Well, I don't think that anybody
kids to be harassed, I'm sure that you
And as you say, you want this, you want this
to end so that you can be reunited with
I think that that's what everybody wants
that that's, you know, that's what's going
One of the things that I want you to
though --
SITA: That's what I, I wrote on my -- hello?
13
HENRY: Yes?
SITA: Hello?
HENRY: Yes, I can hear you. I think that
that cord that you have is -- you know, if you move the
phone something happens, I'm not sure exactly what.
SITA: Yeah.
HENRY: Well, you know, the, the, the news
media speculates a lot. They guess, you know, and
surmise that things might be happening, but they don't
really know what's going on, you know, honestly they
don't. You know, they, they need to say something and
I'd say at least 50 percent of the time they're wrong.
They're just speculating, they're guessing. They're
trying to make a story sound interesting, they're
trying to sell news.
SITA: Well, that's - I used to believe the
news --
HENRY: Well --
SITA: -- and the radio, but what I've been
hearing and what I saw --
HENRY: Umhum. .
SITA: - it doesn't - it's giving me so
much negative right now.
HENRY: Well, I think that that gives you a
perspective, a true perspective on what is true and
what is not true; that is, because you're having a
O U 1
firstéhand experience in dealing with the news media.
We see it, you know, working in law enforcement and
people, you know, say why don't you tell the news media
everything that's going on, they need to know? But a
lot~of the times they speculate anyway. So you wonder,
you know, is it helpful or is it not helpful. We
believe that in a situation like this when people's
lives are at stake, you know, when people have
concerns, people like yourself, who is forced to be in
a position where you're separated from your kids, you
know, we feel that it's in your best interest and
everybody's best interest that a lot of information
doesn't get out._ You know, because you're concerned
and because you are a good parent, we would like to see
you come out, but --
SITA: Well --
HENRY: - of course that's up to you and
that's a decision that's -- that - it's a difficult
decision, it's a very troubling decision because you
have a situation of having to make a, a, a choice and
it's a difficult choice. Your loyalties are with your
children but they're also with the family that you're
with at this time.
SITA: That's one thing I, -- that's one
thing I just wrote my, my parents-inlaw's name so that
I'll know they'll be safe.
C
HENRY:
SITA:
social worker or
here - here and
HENRY:
SITA:
trailers came in
HENRY:
SITA:' |; 15
Uhhuh, uh-huh, well --
But I'm hearing they're going to the
foster home, they're going there, over
there.
Well --
And those, those -- that_- what'car
Umhum.
-- it's unbelievable. It's like just
- I can only see this in a movie.
HENRY: Okay. One of the things that, you
know, it's like you say, you know, you can't believe
everything that you hear in the media because a lot of
that information is incorrect. They're speculating.
You know, some of the information that, that the news
media has broadcast about David and about all of you is
not true. Isn't
SlTA:
HENRY:
SITA:
he said.
HENRY:
exactly what I'm
SITA:
right now.
HENRY:that so?
When they talk to David --
Umhum.
-- they can change or manipulate what
There you go, there you go, that's
talking about.
But there is no connection with them
That's right, that's right, there
0 . 16
isn't.
SITA: There's no connection.
HENRY: Exactly.
SITA: So how can -- I guess I -- Steve just
walked in. Do you want to talk to him?
HENRY: Well, I'd like to finish talking to
you if I could. I will talk to Steve, we -- you know,
but not in a hurry for, for anything. You know, I have
a concern about you. I feel that you're a sincere
person and you have a great, strong, sincere, keen
interest in your children and I'd like --
SITA: Strong? I wasn't -- I am always on
the background before, always. I didn't want to make
no trouble, I --
HENRY: I understand. I understand.
SITA: I'm alone and stuff.
HENRY: And being alone --
SITA: Not alone, but --
HENRY: In terms -- and when I say --
SITA: What's going on now.
HENRY: I mean separated from your children.
It's, it's a difficult thing, you know? Family to, to
somebody like yourself and to a lot of us is, is the
most important and the number one thing, okay? And we
want you, and we want everybody, to be reunited with
their loved ones as soon as possible. I know that,
/" 0 17thatgwid feels that, that he's in a situation where
he has to follow the course that he has chosen and to
see this thing through, you know, and everybody is
being as patient. You are, Steve, is, the children
are, you know, and there are certain needs that have to
be addressed. Everybody still has to eat and life
still has to go on and your children need you and you
need your children. That doesn't mean that you don't
need Steve, you know.
SITA: No, I don't need Steve.
HENRY: I'm sorry, you need Steve and you
need David and you need everybody because they're part
of your family. But your children have a, a direct
link to you because they're your kids and I know that
you feel that very strong, strong obligation and love
and, and because of that love, those children need to
be nurtured by you and we want that for you, okay? So
if you are -- if you feel that you can leave, we want
to help, we want to help you bridge that gap so that
you can as a matter of fact be reunited with your
children.
SITA: Just a minute, please.
HENRY: Okay.
SITA: Hello?
HENRY: Hello? Hello?
SITA: Just a - hello?
»,dQ-
HENRY: Yes? C
SITA: Hello?
HENRY: Yes?
SITA: Just a m
Something is wrong with t
MR. SCHNEIDER:
HENRY: Hello.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
HENRY: Can you
MR. SCHNEIDER:
HENRY: How are
MR. SCHNEIDER:
yourself?
HENRY: I'm doi
MR. SCHNEIDER:
HENRY: I don't
cord or something but we,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
HENRY: - some
couldn't hear me.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
now and then it happens.
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
talking with Jim he said
know, it sounded like itan you hear me?
inute. I can't hear him.
he phone.
Hello?
Henry?
hear me, Steve?
Yeah.
you?
Not to bad, how about
ng okay.
Good.
know if she was moving the
we were having some --
Problems. .
static, yeah, and then she
Yeah, that happened -- every
I'm not sure --
-- earlier when we were
it was his end but I don't
was over here this time. I18
Q O 19don't now.
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: on, shoot. Hello? '
HENRY: Hello?
, MR. SCHNEIDER: Is that your end or mine?
HENRY: I think it's your end.
MR. SCHNEIDER: What on - because I'm not
even moving here, that's why I'm looking right on
through.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: We've got the wires in a
place now where, you know, you can't - no one can
touch it so I don't quite -- that's, that's, that's
strange. Let me take a look.
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Yeah, no one's even
moving here --
HENRY: Okay. l
HR. SCHNEIDER: - near the line.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER:. Okay. .What can we do now?
Where are we at?
HENRY: Well, where we're at is this. I, I,
I talked to '
MR. SCHNEIDER: You probably spent some time
with Jim then, huh?
0 ' 20K HENRY: Uhhuh, yes --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: -- I did. And Jim's been working on
trying to see if we can get those -- get you some kind
of a waiver so you can go ahead and, and take care of
the dogs. I think we, we probably will try to do that,
you know, in -- going into tomorrow in the daylight.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
HENRY: Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: That makes sense.
HENRY: Are we ready to get some more kids
out?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Jim - in fact, the truth is
he talked almost the whole day right until I would
imagine an hour or so ago with David.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: From what I understand he
spent a lot of time on the phone with him.
HENRY: Yeah, and it's my understanding that
David was, was going to be sending -- continue sending
out some, some kids.
M. SCHNEIDER: Is that right?
HENRY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: See, I - yeah, I don't know
anything about it because most of the day I have been
helping a couple of people out here and --
'
Ié 21
NJ HENRY: Okay. One of the things I want to
caution you about --
M. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: - and I, and I wanted to talk to you
about, and that is we need to ensure that if anybody
does walk out, you know, that they're not armed, okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
HENRY: We don't want -- and see, and that's
why we want to do the -- or we want to try to see about
handling of those burial of those dogs tomorrow during
the daylight because we don't want anybody to confuse
those shovels with weapons.
M. SCHNEIDER: Uhhuh.
HENRY: You know? So --
MR. SCHNEIDER: If - you know, if you don't
mind me saying so, it seems kind of - it, it seems
funny because of, you know, like a tank with men
sitting inside it not that far away and, and here's
maybe a --
HENRY: We, we, we just don't want any --
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I - believe me --
HENRY: you know, we, we've worked so
hard, you know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, but look at this
though, Henry, look at this --
HENRY: Yes, yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: --
Sunday when that happened --
HENRY: Uhhuh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: --
fast; I was down at the end
I'm, "What on earth is going
someone.
HENRY: Sure, sure
MR. SCHNEIDER: We
immediately --
HENRY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- , 22
you know, on that day
I mean that started so
of, of this building and
on?" I'm talking to
hit the phone 911
and started Wayne
Martin the attorney and me started screaming --
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we said -- and this Lynch
got on the phone and we started saying, "What is going
on?" And he identified himself, Wayne did, we started
screaming, get involved, you
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: --
children ~-
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: --
communication?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: SOknow, call this off -
there's women and
what happened to
from that time after I
0 23
mean,/everything since then -- I, I was going to say
something about it, I can't remember what it was, oh
yeah, when the part came when --after about an hour and
a half of that kind of nonsense, then of course the
negotiations started about you people being able to
come on and get those that were wounded. Well, we were
all for that --
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and we kept on assuring
and reassuring and, and more than --
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And of course, and when the
time was when your men were standing out there -- one
of the guys just told me today there were 25 guys out
there that could have been picked off.
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But we're not into that,
never. Nobody here has ever shot. No one's been in
any war. No one's been in like Vietnam or anything
like that.
HENRY: I understand.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So I mean, the truth of the
matter is, you know, we're not out there to harm
people, yourself or anybody that's sent out here, I
mean, not, not in the least.
HENRY: Okay. I understand that.
}0 ' 24
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, I mean, but if you guys -
- if you're, if you're concerned about somebody coming
out with a shovel and, I mean --
HENRY: Well --
" MR. SCHNEIDER: -- at times 1'11 tell you
what, I mean, it seems almost absurd though.
HENRY: Well, but, but, but that's just in
the evening hours. We'll, we'll work through this
tomorrow --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: -- during the daylight.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, I'm just talking
about myself. Don't --
HENRY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- don't get, you know --
overall I guess, you know, I -- it's -- you know, after
all this time I guess one just wonders at the time
where, where all this is going to and --
HENRY: Umhum. We just, we just want to
make sure that there's no accidents, that nobody has a
question about anything.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh yeah, I understand, I
understand.
HENRY: And, and I appreciate your
cooperation on this -- I appreciate --
NR. SCHNEIDER: Oh yeah, you know I would do
I ' ", 25
any - whatever, whatever --
HENRY: -- your working with me.
M. SCHNEIDER: -- will help and make the
matters easier, whatever else, you know, I'll always
work with that.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So --
HENRY: Can you check on that, Steve, for me?
You know, maybe I can continue talking to Sita while
you check on that, see if we can get a couple more kids
out?
M. SCHNEIDER: Well, see, the whole what,
what actually was all said then with David because now
you know the guy --
HENRY: David said --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Why is he going -- now he
passes out on me.
HENRY: He passed out?
M. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, he's sleeping
again. He, he's been awake all this time. I just, I
just came down to see him and now I came, I was going
to ask him a few questions and the guy's out again.
But he was awake the entire day so maybe --
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -§ so maybe he's just taking
a -- I, I hope - I'm hoping here he's just taking a
0, 26
1 short nap.
2 HENRY: How is he in terms of his medication
3 condition? I
4 MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, it's remarkable.
5 It's like the guy he - well, I don't know what Jim
6 told you, but when I came to talk with him, he was
7 talking with Jim on the phone --
8 HENRY: Um-hum.
9 MR. SCHNEIDER: I was amazed at how he was
10 sitting up, talking, the strength in his voice and he
11 seems to be recovering.
12 HENRY: Good, good.
13 MR. SCHNEIDER: So, I mean, it's, it's quite
14 amazing. Just like the other night when you were
15 asking -- was that last night you were asking about
16 blood pressure and --
17 HENRY: Umhum.
18 MR. SCHNEIDER: - and it was 120 over --
19 HENRY: Yes.
20 MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I mean I about fell
21 over myself.
22 HENRY: That's great, that's great.
23 MR. SCHNEIDER: So it appears like he's
24 recovering and, and --
25 HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- quite rapidly, I mean --
Q 27
HENRY: Good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - and there's no question he
took some pretty good hits.
HENRY: Okay. Sure. Yes.
' MR. SCHNEIDER: But --
HENRY: Okay. Can we get a couple of more
kids? What do you think, Steve?
_ MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I -- see, the -e what
the bottom line is, it has really nothing to do with
me.
HENRY: I understand, but it was our
agreement with David that he was going to continue
this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, if that's - you know,
if that's what he says I don't see why not.
HENRY: Okay, okay. Well, you know, we, we
want to continue. See, when we, when we spoke
yesterday, when I, when I talked to you, I felt that we
had had a setback and --
M. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
HENRY: I think that, and I think that,
that David is trying to do the right thing, you know,
and that's why I think he's starting to give us some
more kids and I think that that's, that that's worth
while and I think we're - we get into a situation
where we're able to, to tell our bosses look, you know,
2a
he is sincere. He's told us, you know, that he's going
to do this and he is sincere. He's not ready for this
or not ready for that, but he is continuing to show his
good faith by doing this and that and the other. We
want'to continue in that, in that vein because we are
able to, you know, to give you things, for example, in
terms of burying the dogs or, or whatever. It's, it's,
it's good for us, you know, and it puts us in a
position if we had to do something because of an
emergency situation that occurred there, it gives us a,
a situation of being able to tell our boss look --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, this almost seems 1
like a dream to me just sitting here listening to you.
HENRY: I know it, I know it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, to think that you're
giving me an opportunity to bury dogs. It almost
sounds absurd, you know, when I think back where I was,
you know, not too long ago and what was happening.
HENRY: Yes, umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Here I'm sitting in a
building now and it just seems crazy.
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, I mean it's like
your, your gift to me or your giving me some kind of a
treat here and I --
HENRY: I know.
bury a d
it doesn
everythi
to me, I
over, ju
don't ne
whatever
thing se
Do you t
is do
is, you
coming t
don't kn
that way
when he" 29
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I have the opportunity to
ecaying dog, you know, that --
HENRY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But anyway, you know, really
't - you know, I'm, I'm going to try to do
ng I can, like I've always told you, Henry --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: and you know, if it was up
would do ~ you know, it -- I just want this
st okay, let's do this and be done with it. We
ed their single file. We don't need to do
, just here we are, you know, let's get this
ttled and done with and -- q
HENRY: And where are we with that, Steve?
hink that we're making progress in terms of is,
you see - do you get a sense that, that David
know, moving in that direction, is anything
o him that you feel is --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I really - Henry, I really
ow, I don't know. I mean, I think so, it seems
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - but --
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - truthfully, you know, like
said wait and then last night, you know, you're
0 - 0 so
talking to me with all the arguments you had and from
the perspective and so forth which I understand, I'd be
doing the same thing in your shoes.
HENRY: Um-hum.
" MR. SCHNEIDER: And in honesty, from the way
I view things here, I don't know, I really don't know.
You know, I mean, you know, I would -- I'm hoping so --
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- but when he says wait, I'm
wondering myself inside well, what does that mean, how
long and -- how long are we going to be sitting here
and so --
HENRY: Yeah, well, we agree -- you and I
agreed for sure last night that it was not going to be
2,000 years, right?
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's one thing we did agree
on.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's right. That lightens
up things for sure.
HENRY: Yeah. Well, you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Laughter!
HENRY: -- we, want to make sure that, you
know, that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Henry, you have a sense of
humor, huh?
5 5 3
HENRY: Laughter! Well, a little bit.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay .
HENRY: A little bit.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think I would too if I was
over with you on that side talking to some people over
here.
HENRY: Yeah. Well, we, we want to -- we --
I want to work with you, Steve, you know, in terms of
the children. I, I have a concern. I know that, that
David came around on that issue. He wasn't -- I know
he had a concern about some things but we worked
through that through Jim and, and that's why, you know,
we were able to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I know -- wait, what's
going on? Is someone stepping on the line?
HENRY: Not here. I don't know about there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I'm talking over here.
HENRY: Oh, okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I just looked over at someone
here. It's got to be something like that when it --
that that happens.
HENRY: It's, it's important -- you know,
it's important for us, really, I mean it really is. It
may not seem like that, but it's important for us to,
to continue this spirit of cooperation, it really is,
you know? And, and, you know --
"! 32
MR. SCHNEIDER. Well, yeah, you know, if I --
definitely, I mean, especially like to think a lot of
my life I've counseled so many people from so many
walks of life and all age groups and here I'm speaking
to someone, you know, a negotiator myself now and it
seems so strange to be listening to you when I've used
those same arguments and so forth and --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - and I'd like to just say
let's cut all the surface nonsense and here's what it
is and --
HENRY: Exactly.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But, you know, and that's the
way I am, always have been, and --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, when you give
your word, you follow it through. That's why I feel
like, you know, I'm in the - I'm, I'm tied and I'm
between a hard place and a rock.
HENRY: Um-hum, and I feel that, that I"m in
the same position and I, you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, you know, a lot of
things of course have passed through one's mind being
out here in a, in a predicament like this. But I was,
I was asking you, we were talking last night about some
individuals, what happened to them and so forth. I
O Q 3°
gave you their names and you wanted to use that as a
bargaining chip as I recall.
HENRY: I didn't want to use anything as a
bargaining chip. What, what I did is because you
expressed a concern, I went to the bosses.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: Now, I was told that because of the
step that we had had that we --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I recall.
HENRY: -- that, that, that they felt that we
had, that we had regressed in our position in terms of
the progress that we were making, that we had been put
in a position where the bosses now did not want to
cooperate. I think what has happened is David has
taken a, a real good position and I think that he's --
you know, one of the things that he did is he sent I
think one of the kids, Mark, out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he did, yeah.
HENRY: Okay? And we've been trying to tell
the bosses here, I know Jim has and I know I have --
MR. SCHNEIDER: were you around earlier then
when that was taking place or --
HENRY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You were, okay.
HENRY: Yes. And it - so long as we
continue that, then when you ask a question, then it's
U 0 34
very easy for me to, to respond to you and we -- as I
said, we want to continue having this good cooperation,
spirit of, of being able to work with one another. It
has nothing to do with, with trying to use something as
a bargaining chip or anything like that, you know, and,
and I'm glad that -- you know, and I, I have no, I have
no problems in, in furnish you any of that information.
As a matter of fact, you know, I'd, I'd look forward to
when this thing is all over to meeting you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. Well, you know, it's
mutual, it really is. I'm - you know, I'm curious to
see who I've been speaking to all this time, you know,
hours through the night, through the day --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- through the night --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- under such strange
circumstances. It might not be -- there we go again.
HENRY: Yes. Well, let me, let me ask you
this. Is, is -- are, are the people there -- you know,
when we spoke, everybody was dressed and ready to come
out yesterday. Do you sense that, that we're in that
posture again or did we --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
HENRY: Hello?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, okay.
1. as HENRY: Do you sense that we're in that same
posture or do you sense that we're, that we're going to
wait for, for a while? Geez, I don't know what the
matter with that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, there's -- I don't
understand what's happening with this phone now.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you hear that clioking?
HENRY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's like it cuts out. I'm
not sure what that's from.
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I do think so. In fact, I
know so.
HENRY: Okay, good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But, you know, it's strange
when a - when you - when it's, when it's a wait thing
and your, yourself wondering well, how long or what,
what kind of time frame? Like you said, as long ~
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - as it's not 2,000 years.
HENRY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, I mean, that's
about the way it is with anybody, but --
' as
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- yeah, the same. Nothing
has changed about that at all. In fact, I didn't hear
- I know it was a long -- or seemed like a -- somewhat
of a lengthy conversation that David had with Jim
because I walked to where he was, went away, came back
some time later a few different times and he was still
on the phone with them. So apparently it, it sounded
to me in the little bits and pieces I got at that time
like it was, it was still going.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And I guess -- but other --
you know, I didn't, I didn't hear it all, I didn't get
to talk to him. By the time I did get back to where he
was here he was sleeping and has been since.
HENRY: Okay, okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: Well, I -- you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: What -- being that you were
there, what did he say then to Jim? I mean, okay, Mark
went out there. Was -- what was after that or what was
HENRY: Well, I think after that I don't know
that he talked to, to, to David. I think he spoke to -
- well, he did speak to, to David. He spoke to Sita,
too.
I 0 37
HENRY: And I think Sita wants to come outMR. SCHNEIDER: Gkay.
but she's torn because she doesn't want to, she doesn't
want to feel that she's abandoning the extended family,
but-at the - tape ends abruptly!
Tape 32!
HENRY: God, that's awful. Hello? V
MR. SCHNEIDER: What is going on here? What
kind of a phone is this I wonder? Hello?
HENRY: Yes?
MR. SCHNEIDER: What's happening?
HENRY: I don't have any idea.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I'm talking to someone
right here. Yeah, that's - okay. Man, that is a
terrible phone.
HENRY: It is.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Here, hand it to me. That's
the thing right there, that black cord. Hang on.
HENRY: Okay.
Baby crying in background.!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Boy, this thing cuts out
easy.
HENRY: It sure does.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
HENRY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, okay. Now, where was1
6 0 3a
I? Yeah. Okay. I got to talk to just a few people
and then I came -- well, by the time I came back,
that's when I noticed he was sleeping and I started
talking with Sita a little bit and about that time you
called.
HENRY: Okay, okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, what did -- what was she
saying then?
HENRY: Well, I think she's torn and I think
she wants to come out --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, yeah.
HENRY: -- but she doesn't want to feel that
she's abandoning, abandoning the group. She would like
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, no one --
I'll, I'll tell you honestly, no one ever under any
circumstance would ever put pressure on her - don't do
it, or this.
HENRY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, I could start giving
you a list of names, people that have been with us that
are not with us --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you could go talk to them.
HENRY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's what I mean. EvenI
6 39financially speaking, there have JSEL people that have
come to us without a job or money.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: We show them these things.
They don't have a way back so we have given them money
and a place to stay like even a motel or to make sure -
HENRY: Uhhuh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- they've got a place.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Because number one, I mean
for whatever Christianity is, you should not have to
pay for a truth or for some understanding of something
HENRY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that is already free.
HENRY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So that's why, you know, with
anybody here he constantly asks me to mention to these
people does anybody want to go, who wants to go next?
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, but I have -- I haven't
done that today. I only talked to a couple of people.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It was already toward the
latter part of that conversation and --
' 40A HENRY: Okay. Can I ask you to do that? Can
you, can you give me any other kids --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I will.
HENRY: - or, you know, and, you know --
-' MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I'll try to do that. I
don't --
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't see, I've never
had a part directly with, you know, like choosing who
or any like with the children.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's usually the mothers,
between him asking them or do you want to and how about
if these two or whatever, see?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So I've not - even though
I've been observing and so forth, I've not really
talked to any of them or never have I coerced either --
any of them in any -
HENRY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, which direction,
so -+
HENRY: Sure. Can --
MR. SCHNEIDER: - so --
HENRY: can I ask you to follow through on
that, if you could, for me, Steve?
,4_*-
O 9
MR. SCHNEIDER: oh yeah, I will, byou know.
I'll do that for sure.
HENRY: Maybe what I can do is I can - if,
if we can maybe I can talk to, to Sita and, and maybe
in the mean time you can find out if, if somebody else
wants to come out. Could, could we work on that?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. It'd sure be a lot --
I, I wish we could have called or caught David when he
was awake like when Jim had him on the phone. I wish
you would have gotten him to say well, who after him or
something of that nature. Then it's easy for me, there
is no problem.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you know what I mean?
HENRY: Yes. Well, one of the things that
we - I
MR. SCHNEIDER: What, what did - I mean, you
were there probably how long were you around that
conversation when it was going on?
HENRY: Not, not all of it. I, I came, you
know, when he was --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: already involved in a conversation
with her, heard part of that conversation.
M. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
MR. HENRY: And I know she was -- you know,
42
she was breaking up because, you know, because --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
HENRY: -- she's thinking of the separation
with her kids.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
HENRY: And one of the things that we would
like is, you know, we want to make sure that she feels
comfortable and if she wants to - in addition to
talking to, to her kids she can maybe touch base with
the other women that, that have come out and anybody
else that she wants to talk to.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
HENRY: You know? Or let me ask you this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
HENRY: Is the decision-making process there
such that, that we'll have to wait for, for David? In
other words, are you in a position --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Usually, in honesty, it is.
HENRY: Okay. So, you would not be in a
position where you could make the decision?
MR. SCHNEIDER: That --.see, that's why, why
I told you like even last night being between the hard
place and the rock even with --
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- something like that.
HENRY: Okay.
O 43
MR. SCHNEIDER: Because, you know, you see,
the thing is, I can teach the Bible to some degree but
they see him opening up this book. He can answer any
question by going back to the book.
HENRY: Um~hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So they've come not to meet a
Steve, but to meet this guy David who has this ability.
And so in the process that's why like when it comes to
the children and all that going, I mean he's wanting to
encourage a lot of them --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - and he really hits them
pretty hard about going.
HENRY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And - but he doesn't - he,
he won't push them, you know, he has them look, you
know, at the situation and, you know, they're your
children, you can go, don't, you know, don't stay
because of a group, if - I mean, or any other reason
other than, you know, here's your family and so forth,
think about the situation you're in, what's best for
you and, you know, these are the things he's asked
them. _
HENRY: Okay. Well, good, maybe we can,
maybe we can, you know, even if, if he's asleep if you
can continue in that same vein and see if any of them
|, . I} 44
want to decide or make a decision.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I'll sure, I'll go
around and ask.
HENRY: Okay, okay. Well, I'll tell you this
/cam»
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: - why, don't I ask you to do that
and I'll call you back in a little bit?
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
HENRY: Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
HENRY: Okay. Well, I'll call you back in
just a little bit.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Talk to you later, Henry.
HENRY: Okay.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
HENRY: Bye-bye.
Phones hung up! Phone ringing!
* * * k *
RACHEL: Hello?
HENRY: Hi.
RACHEL: Hi.
HENRY: Who is this?
RACHEL: Rachel.
HENRY: Rachel, how are you?
RACHEL§ Fine.
- ", 45O
HENRY: Is David around, please?
RACHEL: Just a minute. Steve around? Let
me go get Steve.
Baby crying in background.!
, RACHEL: David's sleeping so I'n going to go
get Steve, okay?
HENRY: God, he's been sleeping forever.
RACHEL: Why, was he sleeping the last time
you called? .
HENRY: Sure, and that was about 6 o'clock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: Two hours.
RACHEL: Well, what can I say.
HENRY: At least two hours ago.
RACHEL: Huh?
HENRY: That was about two hours ago.
RACHEL: Well --
HENRY: Is he okay?
RACHEL: Yeah. He - his health seems to be
doing fine.
HENRY: Okay. I'd like to talk to him if I,
if I could.
RACHEL: Just a minute.
HENRY: Thank you.
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
HENRY: Hello, Dave?
0 46
MR. SCHNEIDER: Steve.
HENRY: Hey, Steve, how you doing?
MR. SCHNEIDER: How's it going?
HENRY: Good, how are you?
' MR. SCHNEIDER: All right. Is this Henry?
HENRY: Yes, it is.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Where are we at,
Henry?
HENRY: Well, you were going to check for us
to, to see who was -- which one of the kids was coming
out next.
HR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I went and asked quite
a number of them and they all were hesitant so I
suppose if thing - I did talk to not only the kids, I
went and talked to a lot of mothers and they all
implied like they wanted to wait and see what he
thought and so I said all right, if you want we'll wait
until he's awake then.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So let's see here. Okay:
Yeah, I just happened to be - I heard some crunching
or something, looked out the window and I see one of
your tanks ran over the guard shack. I thought, I
thought that was pretty cute.
HENRY: What now?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, there's like --
rI, 47
they -- we used -- they used to call it a guard Shak
out at the front gate there.
over.
HENRY: When?Well, a tank just ran it
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right - oh about I'd say oh,
20 minutes ago, a half hour or something like that.
HENRY: You're kidding.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Uh-uh. First today what they
did, I think it was about oh four hours ago, they're
out in the back there and I happened to be looking out
the window and I saw another one of them, could have
been the same one, I'm not sure, but he ran over kind
of a shed out there. And then just about 20 minutes
ago he ran over what they always called the guard shack
right at the gate.
HENRY: Let me askyou this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
HENRY: Do you have the facility to call me?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I don't - I always did have
but it's been - I've tried it recently and a lot of
times it doesn't work. I'll
HENRY: Do you, do
MR. SCHNEIDER: Is
let's see, what, what is it?
HENRY: 0545.get to about the --
you have my number?
it something like 799 ~-
MR. SCHNEIDER: 0545. I should write it
righglere on the --
HENRY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you have a pen right there
put it on --
~ Indiscernible female voice in background.!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, can you write it right
here for me so I -- that way - I will always see it.
Okay. Yeah, in fact I was wondering well, what's,
what's this all about.
HENRY: I don't have any idea. I, I - you
know, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Are these young kids that are
in these tanks that have like a itchy finger or
something?
HENRY: You know, I don't have any idea. I'm
not, I'm not close - I, I need to check on that and I
will --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Is it -- okay, 799,
what is it?
HENRY: 0545.
MR. SCHNEIDER: 45, okay.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: 0545. Good.
HENRY: And if anything happens --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
HENRY: -- I need you to call me. Now, don't
O U 4
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
HENRY: hesitate.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
' . HENRY: I'll tell you what, call me right
back and let's - and, and let's make sure that, that
you have that availability.
mm. scnuzxonn: All right.
HENRY: Okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll call you back ~ right
back.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.
HENRY: Bye.
4 Phones hung up!
HENRY: Okay. Listen, I'm -- I'll, I'll need
to check on that. I don't - I wasn't aware that
anything like this was going to occur.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I -- there's, there's
been other things like that but we just thought it was
part of the program --
HENRY: what else?
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- of intimidation or
something like that.
HENRY: What else? What else?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what, what else has
i so
been happening around here? I know those are the two
things I saw. I just happened to be looking A
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - out the window and --
' HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the others -- pardon?
Indiscernible male voice in background.!
MR. SCHNEIDER: I guess they're doing -- they
do a lot of maneuvers all over the place and I mean, I
-- the truth of the matter is personally I don't even
care, you know, it doesn't matter to me. If, if it's
my day to go it is, if it isn't well, whatever, you
know?
HENRY: Sure, sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So - but, I mean, I was
quite surprised because I - in talking to someone like
yourself, I can't imagine that would be something that
you would deploy or something like you'd be doing.
HENRY: It doesn't, it doesn't make any
sense, it doesn't make any sense to me.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, yeah, I know, and
that's true there. You know, like originally when we
started working with Jim he -- like you were talking
about promises and word and all that.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And Jim did give us his word
O Q 5
that -- one of the first agreements that was made
between David and Jim was that all the vehicles would
be retracted to the -- off the property. We, we agreed
that they could be on the edge of the property,
whatever, but off the property.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That has never been kept
because they're always -- especially right where the,
the white barn building, the block -- the cement-block
building is today they were being watched as they
rolled over the little shed beside it, they put up a
white plastic piece in front of it, then they --
always, you know, doing things like that. They're
always in it though --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- watching us watch them and
so forth. Once in a while something -- this is what I
was told anyway. i
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And I happened to look out
there and sure enough I, I could see them myself.
HENRY: I see. Okay.
M. SCHNEIDER: So --
HENRY: Let me look into this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Yeah, because, you
know, the --
92
U ' 52
HENRY: Yeah, because. --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- truth is, they've never --
you know, that, that -- even though we came with -- I
mentioned it to Jim a couple of times even after that
and he said he'd take care of it.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But I just left it go. I
thought, well, okay, if that's the way it is, well, you
know.
HENRY: Okay. Well, one of the -- of course,
one of the problems that, that we've had and I'm not --
this is in no way, you know, trying to justify anything
because, you know, if, if Jim said that -- you know,
whatever he said or whatever I say, once we say that
then that's the way it has to be.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
HENRY: But one of the problems of course
that we've had is, you know, and this is not - this is
- this has not been an ongoing situation it's just
that we've been in a position where in going to our
bosses we've been saying look, everything that David
has said up until yesterday we were able to say
everything that he said he was going to do he's done.
He's kept his word. He said he was going to send two
children out at a time and, and that's exactly what he
did. And he asked about this and he asked about that
I, 53Q
and, and whatever either whatever he said or
inquired about he was being truthful, he is being
honest, he is being sincere.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Umhum.
' HENRY: Since you know, since he didn't
come out, you know, we've, we've had a situation where
we didn't - and when I say we, I'm talking about the
bosses. The bosses have not felt that he was - you
know, that he didn't keep his word and we don't have
the good working relationship that we have. I want to
continue that and that's one of the reasons that I've
been pressing to get some other children out so that
the bosses here feel comfortable that we're moving in
the right direction. We want to establish some trust
and faith and confidence with one another and that's,
that's why we want to continue that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, one of the biggest - I
guess one of the biggest annoyances, like it's, it's
always - it's like right from the beginning since
Sunday night it's been like it's held in one's face,
it's like -- you know, it, it seems like they trying to
use some kind of an intimidation factor. But the truth
of the matter is these people aren't bothered because
we - like I said, you know, it's hard to understand
for anyone else but we believe that there is a God
seated on a throne, number one.» That God is a powerful
5 6 5
HENRY: Um-hum.God
MR. SCHNEIDER: You and I will stand before
him.
HENRY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's, he's got some things
he's going to do that's going to shake this whole world
HENRY: Absolutely.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and men are going to shit
in their pants --
HENRY: That's right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- bottom line. And that's
what it says in Hebrew in the Old Testament --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it really says that.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So I don't want to be one of
those that are on the -- and this is why it says,
"Don't fear man," Christ said in Matthew 10, "Fear
God."
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But see, the more you read
and study that book the more it becomes that way. So,
when I see man-made things here, man who is nothing but
dust, we all have to go back to the dust again.
'. ' ssp nanny: That's right. M
MR. SCHNEIDER: So I'm in a -- we're, we're
in a place here that is not pleasant, but in the
process, process of, of it all I have talked to men
thatI hope have caught a higher vision of something
better even for themselves.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And in the process of it all,
I mean we, we have communicated, we've tried our best
and in the, in the process of this certain things have
been said that would be taken care of are done. I
don't keep on bringing it up because once it's been
noted and so forth - well, you know, just like what
happened yesterday like what you say and like Jim and
going to the bosses and so forth. But I you know, I
explained as clear and plain as one could as to why
that is. It always comes down to fear in God and that
God said to him wait and that was - there is no other
answer, there is no other reason than that.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And we you and I went
through that back and forth and around and around a few
times --
HENRY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - and finally came to a
place where we, we could see - you know, that ~ I
. 56 O
mean that's where it is for us --
HENRY: Um-hum, um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- so, and now we're trying
to get back working something here and getting
something going again.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But while you were doing all
of this, those guys out there trying to get the
attention of the people here by doing other things
trying to put fear maybe into them, I don't know what
they're doing. But, you know, it's entertaining if
nothing else.
HENRY: Uh-huh. Well, we don't -- I, I, I
certainly don't want that to be construed as, as what
our purpose is in terms of, you know, either trying to
entertain you or, or intimidate you or, or anything
like that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
HENRY: We want to try to work together and
try to work --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what I thought.
You know, it didn't seem like it fit with your
personality and demeanor and so forth, the way you've
been talking with me, the communication process. It
seemed to be totally out of sync with, you know, the
whole -- since the time I've began --
6 ' 57
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- speaking with you.
HENRY: Um-hum. Let me ask you this.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
' HENRY: Did you put the number in such a
location so that if you or anybody else wants to call
they know that where that number is, prominently
displayed?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, in fact what I just did
-- when I was saying well, let's write it down right
here, I literally wrote it on the wall. So I, I just
had one of the people come over here. They wrote it on
the wall so it's right by the phone now.
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So if anybody wants to call
that number they can. I mean, the phone is always
right in a place where anybody can make calls.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: If indeed people have been
checking us out for like say eight months or whatever,
they -- or checked our phone calls or whatever else,
you'd find out that people were calling all over the
world as they always do, relatives, friends, whoever
else.
HENRY: Uh-huh, Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And so, yeah, anybody can
0 0 ss
call anytime they want, when they want.
HENRY: Okay, good. I - is there a chance I
can talk to David? I, I really would like to talk --
M. SCHNEIDER: I, I could find out.
' HENRY: -- to him, yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, sure.
HENRY: There are some questions that I need
to, to ask him specifically and there are some things
that, you know, he may want to ask of me and I want to
establish a situation. I've not talked to him at all,
you know, since yesterday.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
HENRY: Thank you.
M. SCHNEIDER: Let me find out.
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he's right here.
HENRY: Good.
MR. KORESH: Hey, it's my friend Henry?
HENRY: Yes, how are you my friend?
MR. KORESH: Oh, little snoozy but we're
making it. We're getting better.
HENRY: Well, I'm, I'm hearing good things.
I understand that, that you're doing better and better.
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah. There's - everyone's
saying it's a miracle.
HENRY: Great. These holes are both, you
'0 b 59
know, closing up and, you know, there's no - there's
not too much red around them and --
HENRY: No infection?
M. KORESH: No, none at all. And my blood
pressure and heart rate is going up.
HENRY: Good.
MR. KORESH: I'm just a little tired, that's
all.
HENRY: Okay. Well, that's to be expected,
you know, but now, are you eating?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, I had a little chicken
soup and I, I sip on this orange juice. See, it's good
when your body is hurt like that not to really eat any
hard, bulky foods.
HENRY: Um-hum, so that your body can fight.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, and let it recess so where
your hydrochloric acid doesn't agitate, you know, the
inner linings of your colon and all that kind of stuff.
HENRY: Um-hum, um-hum.
M. KORESH: Yeah, it takes a lot of blood
from your brain and stuff and your body for healing
just to digest food.
. HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: So --
HENRY: You've been, you've been urinating
okay?
", so
MR. KORESH: on, yeah.
HENRY: And have you had a bowel movement?
MR. KORESH: Not yet. But like I say, since,
since Friday -- since Saturday I didn't eat hardly
anything and Sunday I didn't eat nothing and Monday I
didn't eat nothing and, and Tuesday like I said, I
started doing a little soup.
HENRY: Okay.
M. KORESH: So
in my system so, you know
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: --
movement there, you know,
there it can't move.
HENRY: Um-hum.I really haven't put any bulk
that indiscernible! a bowel
if there ain't nothing in
Okay.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, we're really, we're really
- you know, these big boys are out here swinging all
this mud. Definitely they're all inside our, our
property line, that's for
HENRY: Well --sure .
MR. KORESH: I guess they, they don't
understand. I mean, you can't really blame them.
HENRY: Well --
MR. KORESH: They got to crunch up property
and stuff like that. They don't know, they don't know
what they destroyed when they ran over that blue
0 61
building down there do they?
HENRY: I, I - you know --
MR. KORESH: But that's all right. You know,
they -- it's not up to them to worry about personal
values of things, whether it belongs to us or somebody
else --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- whether it belongs to
somebody on the outside or, you know.
HENRY: I don't know if they're trying to
adjust their positions--
MR. KORESH: Brand new car -- oh, you mean --
that was, that was the radio -- that was the TV or the
journalist's car on the streets and they just ran over
two brand new ones. The government's got a lot of
money anyway.
HENRY: What now?
MR. KORESH: Oh, the - when, when the ATF
first came out here --
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: -- couple of journalists were
out on the road or something.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: And of course, you know, when
the firing started and all that they hit the ditch. Of
course, you know, there's no bullets in those cars or
0 52
nothing, you know. And so what happens is, is that
they just sat out there, guys just left them, abandoned
them.
HENRY: Um-hum.
' MR. KORESH: Well, then somebody came along
with a tank and just ran over them and scooted them off
to the side of the road.
HENRY: Is that right?
MR. KORESH: That's right.
HENRY: When was that?
MR. KORESH: That took place today, right
Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah in background!.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
MR. KORESH: I mean, it's, it's kind of --
brand new car, just kind of amazing.
HENRY: Wow, it is.
MR. KORESH: They like to --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Play around in background!.
MR. KORESH: -- play around in those little
go, go buggies.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
HENRY: Well, I'm, I'm sorry that --
MR. KORESH: They're, they're, they're -- you
know, those are National Guard aren't there in the
63middp of - 0
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
MR. KORESH: What series of tank is that?
MR. SCHNEIDER: A Bradley M-2 or 3 I think.
g M. KORESH: No, it's one that's got that
small millimeter gun on the front.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, what's, what's his name
told us that, you know, they had the guns removed, you
know? No, that gun, that, that thing there carries
three sets of small indiscernible! rapid~fire guns off
the ports of the sides.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And it, it's, it's made with a
real, real small barrel.
A HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: It's either the M2 or M-3
series.
HENRY: Okay.
M. KORESH: And yeah, I mean it was just
complete lie what they, what they said about it.
HENRY: Well --
MR. KORESH: It's, it's a maneuvering tank.
It's a tank that goes out into a battle. It has the
abilities to knock out other actual military tanks that
I . 64
have the big caliber rounds.
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: But, you know, I guess he
thought because it had such a little, tiny, tiny barrel
which is, you know, about an inch or - it's bigger
than 50 cal --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- that he would think that we
wouldn't had a barrel on it, but flaming torch, no
doubt about it.
HENRY: Well, I'm, I'm not really aware of
the tactical team activities and, and capabilities and
all of that. I know that they've been ordered not to
go to in there, okay?
MR. KORESH: Oh, well, they're all over. I
mean, they're right back here. They came right back by
the - h
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- gymnasium. I mean, you know,
they're, they're - yeah, I'd say it has the ability of
rapidly firing 200 rounds of 25 millimeter.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: That's what that is, 25
millimeter.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Real little dinky one.
Q ' . es
HENRY: Well, I, I think it was a real good
move on your part to send, you know, another child out,
you know, I, I think --
MR. KORESH: Well, like, like I say --
' HENRY: -- that establishes, you know, just
a, a real good working relationship with you and that's
what I want to continue with you. I think that you've
been sincere and honest and --
MR. KORESH: The children that, that - you
know, want -- they come up to me and ask me if they can
qo --
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: - I let them go.
HENRY: Okay.
M. KORESH: Otherwise, I'm waiting on my
God, my Father, he's calling the shots now. You know.
I'm the bait, you're the fish, okay? I'm, I'm on the
hook now. The hook's connected to the string and the
string is connected to the rod and God's got it in his
hand.
HENRY: Um-hum.
Q MR. KORESH: It's a deep-sea fishing
procedure, okay? Now, if you all want to jump me,
we'll find out whether God sits on the throne or not.
That's all I can say.
HENRY: Well --
C 5
I MR. KORESH: I mean, you know, I am not as
crazy as you think I am. Now, my doctrine may be kind
of strange, but Hosea says in the time when God desires
to reveal the deep things of his law, it'll be
accounted as a strange thing. You were there when I
gave Jim some of those studies today weren't you?
HENRY: No, I wasn't here when, when - well,
I came in when, when you were - late in, in the day
when he was talking actually to Sita I think.
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.
HENRY: That's when I, that's when I came.
MR. KORESH: Well, and, you know, I was - or
I fell, I fell into the deepest sleep I've fallen into
in a long time.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: I mean, for some reason it's --
just like I, I haven't had this good a rest for 10
years.
HENRY: Well, I'm glad you did then.
MR. KORESH: But like I say, you know ~- no,
I was going to, I was going to have - if I had - I
don't know how long I've slept, but I was last thing
on my mind before I went to sleep was, is, you know, I
was going to, you know, let Jim talk to each one of
these girls.
HENRY: Um-hum.
¢
' 67A MR. KORESH: You know, feel them out, you
know, let them talk on their own.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: You know, people keep wanting to
talk to me and I've already made it very plain my
position, you know. Some of the girls, you know, that
have already sent their children, you know, they're,
they're, they're contemplating. They have to make
their decision on their own.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: You know, their, their hearts
are naturally towards their children.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: And, you know, that's what I was
going to let Jim do, I was going to let him talk to
them and, you know, like he talked to Sita.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: And, you know, when I sent Sita,
Sita could - anytime she wanted, she could just get in
the van and go with them.
HENRY: Well, I think it's a real good
position for you to take and, you know, when, when we
were talking to Mark, Mark said that, you know, the
children wanted to come out and that's why, you know, I
thought that, that you were doing this, to ensure that,
that the children do feel good and safe --
b D 68
MR. KORESH: Right.
HENRY: -- and can get away from a position
where they might feel intimidated being in a, in a
situation where all of this activity is taking place.
And that's why I thought --
MR. KORESH: Well, you know, we've been,
we've been allowing the children to talk to Jim and
stuff and we're telling them that he's a nice guy and
stuff, you know? A
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And, and we're, we're not, we're
not painting a very bad picture at all for them.
HENRY: I - you know, I realize that and
that's the impression that we have from talking to the
kids.
MR. KORESH: And hopefully they're being,
they're being very, they're being very cooperative with
you. And, you know --
HENRY: And we're taking good care of them
and we want to continue that, and, and we want to
continue this spirit of cooperation that, you know,
that we've reestablished with you. We know that, that
you have to follow what, what, you know, what you feel
in your heart that you have to do in terms of waiting
for the right time, you know; the time however may be
right for them to -- for the kids to come out now and,
~ D 69Oand if, if that's the case, then we would like to
continue working with you in that spirit of
cooperation.
MR. KORESH: I have no problem with that.
HENRY: Okay. Okay. Would you like to send
us a couple kids now?
MR. KORESH: Well, let's, let's just wait a
minute.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: And, you know, I like you,
Henry. Let me get a little drink here- My mouth gets
real dried out real quick.
HENRY: Okay.
Pause!
MR. KORESH: Boy, we're lucky we got this
orange juice.
HENRY: Yes.
MR. KORESH: We only got about what, 200, 200
pints of it - quarts, half-gallons of it.
HENRY: Good.
MR. KORESH: All right. -Oh, are you tending
to that? How does it look? Oh, it's beautiful. Boy,
that was -- yeah, there was one girl here that - she
was breast-feeding her baby and --
~ HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: - and she didn't know what was
0 70
going on and the -- and the rounds started going off,
came right through the wall --
HENRY: Geez.
MR. KORESH: -- hit her, hit her in the, in
the -- in, in the finger right at the top of the bend
of the middle joint, rode up the knuckle, went, went
right into her very tip of her shoulder up here --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:, -- you know, made a little
-- one, two, three little gouges, you know?
HENRY: Oh, my God.
MR. KORESH: Just --
HENRY: Is she okay?
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah, she's, she's okay.
Just kind of --
HENRY: Does, does she need attention?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, we've, we've attended to
her.
HENRY: Oh, okay.
MR. KORESH: She's all right.
HENRY: Good.
MR. KORESH: You can talk to her if you want.
HENRY: Well, you know, I, I don't -- I'd
rather talk to you for now.
MR. KORESH: Yeah. Well, you know, if you
talk to some of these girls and stuff you can also get
0 71
from you know, you, you can listen to them, you, you
can see whether they're -- what -- you know, what their
decisions are, you know, and, and how they're, how
they're dealing with it.
" HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Wait one second. Judy? He
wants to know how you're indiscernible!.
JUDY: Holding up? Hello?
HENRY: Hi.
JUDY: Hi. How are you doing?
HENRY: This is Henry.
JUDY: Henry?
HENRY: Umhum.
JUDY: And you're with who?
HENRY: I'm with the FBI.
JUDY: The FBI. I've heard of you.
Laughter!
HENRY: Laughter! Who are you?
JUDY: I'm Judy.
HENRY: How are you, Judy?
JUDY: Good.
HENRY: How old are you?
JUDY: I'm - oh, I hate to tell my age
because I look so young, but I'm 42.
HENRY: Okay, and are you, are you in good
health?
0 Q 7
JUDY: I'm in very good health, yeah.
HENRY: Okay. You didn't get hurt?
JUDY: Well, it hurt, yeah.
HENRY: Okay.
' JUDY: But I'm still getting around pretty
good.
HENRY: Okay. Are you, are you interested in
coming out now? Would you be interested --
JUDY: Oh, I am not at all interested in
coming out now --
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY: - no.
HENRY: Okay. Do you have an infant child?
JUDY: Yeah, uh-huh.
HENRY: Okay, and is he, is he or she in good
health?
JUDY: Yeah, um-hum --
HENRY: Okay.
JUDY: - um-hum.
HENRY: Are you -- whose wife are you?
JUDY: Whose wife am I?
HENRY: Yes.
JUDY: You get pretty technical don't you?
Laughter!
HENRY: Laughter! Well, since you have an
infant child I - you know, I --
¢.
JUDY: What's your wife's name?
HENRY: My wife's name is Marcella.
JUDY: Marcella?
HENRY: Marcella.
' JUDY: And your last name?
HENRY: Garcia.
JUDY: Henry Garcia?
HENRY: Umhum.
JUDY: Oh, you don't sound Spanish.
HENRY: Laughter!
JUDY: Laughter! That's - oh, do you know
Robert Gonzalez?
HENRY: No, I don't.
JUDY: You don't?
HENRY: No, I - you know, I'm with the FBI.
1--
JUDY: Oh yeah, that's right. .You don't know
him at all?
HENRY: No, I've never seen him. I don't, I
don't have any idea who he is.
JUDY: Oh. Oh, well. Well, nice talking to
you.
HENRY: It's nice talking to you.
JUDY: All rightie, take care. Bye.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, she was telling me earlier
that people that used the tactics that you all
' f 74
O O
individuals used, --
HENRY: That --
M. KORESH: -- she doesn't, she doesn't
trust you too much.
HENRY: Well --
MR. KORESH: Especially watching all these tanks
come around here like they've been coming.
HENRY: Um-hum. '
MR. KORESH: I mean, I'm not talking about in
-- just inside the property. I'm talking about here,
you know, 20, 30 feet outside our building here, you
know, and that's kind of like they're kind of like
moving around and saying watch us knock down your
buildings and now we're fixing to knock down your main
building.
HENRY: Well --
MR. KORESH: You know, well, I mean - what
can we do?
HENRY: Well, they've been ordered not, not
to - you know, not to go in there indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH: How many times? They're doing
it. They're not listening to you.
HENRY: See, I'm not one of the bosses, you
know?
MR. KORESH: I know.
HENRY: I, I, I, I - you know --
ape ends abruptly!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO G FIREARMS
TAPE #33
MARCH 3, 1993
9:53 P-H. - 10:35 P.M.
O 9 =
DAVID: -- just going to have to, you know,
your job, you're going to have to bear with the
responsibilities when, you know, you lost a lot of
innocent lives, that's all I can say. You're going to
have to, you know, you're going to have to take a look
at some of the pictures of the little ones that ended
up perishing, because, you know, you don't have that
much jurisdiction, do you?
HENRY: We1l
DAVID: I mean, but the thing is this, you
know, on the other hand, our God who sits on the throne
is keeping better order of things than you guys are.
HENRY: Uh-huh. -
DAVID: I just wish you understood the reason
why the Bible was written is because the Prophets were
told to seal their Book till the end of time.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And how many times have all these
churches been honking their heads saying that the end
could come any day. You know, the longer, longer time
takes, the less sin seems to be sinful. You know,
today we have all these people doing all these terrible
things in the name of theirself, you know?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And it just seems to be normal
routine life. I mean halt the story is not even told.
Q 3U HENRY: well I think this whole incident is
very unfortunate and, I, you know, I sincerely wish
that it had never happened.
DAVID: Well, I wish Robert would have called
me because, you know, I think, I think, what would have
been better, now this is hypothetical-
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: --Just to make a point, maybe we
should have taken Robert as a hostage, huh? We could
have avoided a lot of bloodshed, couldn't we?
HENRY: Well, you know
DAVID: Don't you think?
HENRY: Well, I have no, it's difficult to
say--
DAVID: -then we'd be in trouble for taking
a hostage.
HENRY: -- if that had happened exactly.
Okay, you have a responsibility for the safety of the
people that are there with you, okay? DAVID:
Uh-huh.
HENRY: And I think that you are leading your
people in, in the fashion that you feel is the most
responsible way for you to do it.
DAVID: That I know is to be done, right.
HENRY: Exactly, exactly, and I think that
you're doing the right thing in terms of, of saying
Q Q 4
look, these children, that, you know, need to go out,
and then, and you're willing to, to show
DAVID: And give these people, give these
people-
' HENRY: Exactly, exactly
DAVID: --time to look at what they're
dealing with, to look at you big boys--
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: --to watch your maneuvers, look at
all your show of might-
HENRY: We1l
DAVID: No, listen, let me, let me, let me-
BENRY: Sure.
DAVID: -paint the picture, so we can watch
this exactly how this government and this world really
works. You know how this peaceful lamb-like beast
really under its breast, speaks as a dragon, you know.
HENRY: Uh huh.
DAVID: This is one of the greatest soci--
psychological formulas of man's division. I mean, it
just like, you know, I realize, you know, the three,
the three men have talked with us thus far, are very
smooth, very calm, very understanding. But, what
really amazes me is how like with Jim, when I read to
him plainly from the Prophecies about an event, a
Messiah, dealing in a situation with chariots that ran
U 5
like lightnings, that made thunders, that had flaming
torches--
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -that jostled in the streets, that
made the fir trees shake, I asked him, I said where in
the New Testament did you hear anything about Messiah
being involved with tank, with chariots with flaming
torches.
Now mindful of the fact, we know that the Prophets
in their day could only understand the things of their
world.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: I mean, you know, when it talks about
thand their horses shall be as, you know, like the
evening wolves that are more terrible than the
leopards, and faster than leopards, you know, is the
Prophet really talking about real horses or is he only
trying to point out that he sees men which he can
identify men-
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: --and he sees vehicular transport
that's way beyond his comprehension and he's trying to
explain it with the things of his natural world.
HENRY: which he can understand.
DAVID: Which are the things that he's trying
to relate. '
I I
HENRY: Uh-huh.
» DAVID: You know, and if they roar like a
lion, does that mean that they're a lion or is a lion
just the only reality that he knows in his life that is
fearful.
HENRY: Uhhuh, right.
DAVID: And so, you know, it's just like,
when Ezekiel says that God travels on this chariot, and
that there's these flames, and there's these torches,
and it sounds like the thunders of the Heaven. You
see, is he really talking about a cloud or is he
talking about some kind of vehicle with lights, and
some kind of vehicle with, you know, makes a noise of
thunder, because it's really a highly sophisticated,
you know, implement of the higher universes.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: You've seen the documentary, Chariots
of the Gods?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: It kind of develops a good scientific
question, doesn't it?
HENRY: It sure does.
DAVID: Right. well, do you actually think
that man, mankind, as you know mankind, could have been
realistically a part of a universal society? Remember,
our ancient fathers have given us record--
70 ¢
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: --that men from other worlds have
visited our world.
HENRY: Right.
J DAVID: Now this is not biblical. It's more
scientific.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: You know, so all the, all nations,
the hieroglyphics, the technologies of the past
ancients, well, I wonder, I wonder why that the concept
of good and evil is such an important part of every
social direction of man. Everyone has the question of
the right and wrong way of doing things. ,
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But, you know, isn't it strange how
that God would wait to the latter days before he passes
judgement on the world? Because a lot of the
prophecies of the bible cannot really be understood-
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: -until man's technology so advances
to a degree that he_can understand the real meanings of
the prophecies.
HENRY : Uh-huh .
DAVID: Now we know the flaming, the chariots
with flaming torches that make noise like thunder, you
know, we know what that really is, don't we?
O Q 8
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: What is it?
HENRY: Well, the same thing that you're
talking about.
i DAVID: Tanks.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: Okay. Now, how would the Prophet be
justified of such an event saying that Messiah is being
confronted with a situation and yet we know clearly
from Matthew, Hark, Luke and John, no such thing
happened.
HENRY: What do you think?
DAVID: Well, it would make the Prophet
false, wouldn't it?
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: But of course Christ says "think not
that I've come to destroy the law of the Prophets,"
that's what he told his disciples.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Some come not to destroy, but to
fulfill.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: And, until Heaven and Earth pass, not
one jot or tittle shall pass from the law or the
prophets until all be fulfilled. Heaven and Earth
shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Q I 9
Now what are the words of Christ? Well, John, he
always keeps telling the Jews that this doctrine is not
his own, but the doctrine that he received from his
father.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Revelation, what are those seven
seals, I wonder. It's probably a situation that when
Christ does come, he's going to get into a situation,
cause remember he is a political leader, isn't he?
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: would you consider Christ a political
leader?
HENRY: Leader of all, you know, political --
DAVID: Well, I mean, I'm sure that if he was
to come today in the clouds of glory, I'm sure that
your, your national leaders and all of your great
empire directors and all that would no doubt have a
united, United Council, the Pontiff and all the leaders
of all churches and of all governments would come
together and sit down and talk about some things cause
naturally his armies of the universe is far greater
than the armies of this world.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay. well that's going to happen.
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: But the thing of it is, it happens
O ' 10
after a catastrophe. Because, you know, I bet that the
gentiles of today are really no better than the Jews of
yesterday. What would you want to bet?
HENRY: I'm sure that that makes a lot of
sense.
DAVID: You know, Isaiah said that Israel
didn't believe the prophets, that's what he tells us in
Chapter 1 and that God's going to forsake his people
because they're like the Philistines. They're ,
soothsayers and they have their own imaginations, but
they don't walk in God's word.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: What Isaiah says in Chapter Two,
verse One, he says, "but in the last days, it shall
come to pass, but the mountain of the Lord's house,"
that was Mt. Zion, Ht. Zion,--
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: That's where the ancient throne of
David once sat, "shall be established in the top of all
mountains and shall be exalted of above all hills, and
all nations shall flow in to it." Excuse me here.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Now, if that's the case, then on the
last days we should be waiting for that to happen. Is
it spiritual, is it literal, well it says that he shall
sit upon the throne and rebute many nations of far off
O 0 11
and they shall beat their swords and their plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not
lift up sword against nation. Neither will they learn
more anymore. That sounds good, don't it?
' HENRY: Well, I don't know, you know, if it's
going to be good.
DAVID: well, I mean if someone big enough,
bigger than the world intervened and told all these
brothers and sisters of this old world to put their
weapons down, it's kind of like -- have you ever had a
brother before?
EENRY: Sure.
DAVID: Did you ever like
fight with your brother?
HENRY: Well, not since I
DAVID: Okay, that's what
But then dad kind of stepped around
hallway? '
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID :
HENRY: Sure did.
DAVID:get
was
I'm
theinto a fist
a kid.
talking about.
corner of the
Kind of brought peace, didn't it?
Okay. Well, that's kind of like what
has to happen because, the world, even though men may
grow to maturity, they're still really in a large way,
children.
HENRY: I think you're right.
' 12
DAVID: And, just a lot of these children
have this cover called refinement, eloquency, you know,
they're good orators. It makes man seem a little more
on the outside than what really man is on the inside.
Now I'm sure even Pope John Paul likes to every once in
awhile, I don't know, he might like to fly model
airplanes or something.
HENRY: Laughter. »
DAVID: He might like to - he might have a
choo choo train, now come on, you see what I'm saying?
HENRY: Yeah. -
DAVID: I'm sure he might have his favorite
fishing pole.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Because nobody likes to just sit all
day long and read out of the Bible or read out of
catechism.
HENRY: That's true.
DAVID: And even Solomon, that Solomon says
much studiness, much study is a weariness to the mind.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Okay, so Solomon did say though, that
in all of his wisdom as a great king, and you know,
some of the greatest wisdom in all of the world
literature wise, comes from the Bible, wouldn't you
think?
Q Q 13
HENRY: Absolutely.
DAVID: A lot of it's so deep a lot of people
don't know the meanings of it but definitely it's an
inspired book even if it's just poetic. You know, in
high school you can learn bible as lit which is not a
doctrinal thing, but just it kind of looks at the
poetry and the connection of language, the flow of
thought that the ancient writers had.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Anyway, Solomon, he makes a lot of
comments in Ecclesiastes about life and death, love,
hatred, the meanings of man, oppression and power and
weakness, and he finally says in the conclusion
beginning in chapters ll and 12 of Ecclesiastes, he
says, "now young man," he says "go ahead and go in the
way of your heart, do what is right in your own eyes."
He says, "but no, that for these things, God will
bring you into the judgement." He said "now remove
sorrow from your heart and tears from your eyes," he
says "fear God now in the days of your youth before the
evil days come when you will have no pleasure in them.
Before the time when the time will come when the sun,
moon and stars will be darkened."
Now, soon the stars will be darkened. Do you know
of any event in the Book of Revelation about the sun,
moon and stars being darkened? Do you remember that
lasgaight?
HENRY:
DAVID:
HENRY:
J ozwxn:
stars fell due to
HENRY:
DAVID:
will return after
to be a rain, the
rain according to' 14
Uhhuh.
The sixth seal?
Right.
Some of the stars were dark and the
the fig tree shaking?
Uh-huh.
It says at the time when the clouds
the rain, of course there's supposed
prophecies teach that there will be a
the time when Messiah is trying to
warn the world. indiscernible! Nahum and it says that
the clouds will come, it will have a short rain, and
all of a sudden it will stop.
HENRY:
DAVID:
this belligerent power that, you know, flaunts
might, magnifies itself against the truth, the
course it says in
amongst the heathen and wonder narvously.
work will work in
what we told you.
heathens are. You know, they don't takeOkay.
And clear up. But it talks about
its
Lord, of
the Habakkuk, it says regard ye
For I will
your day that you will not believe
Of course that's just the way
any real
warnings from God. They don't fear God.
: 0
DAVID: But anyway it says in Ecclesiastes
0 ' 15
that you know, fear God before the sun, moon and stars
are darkened, before the clouds return after the rain.
Because the next time the clouds return, oh boy. The
prophets teach something about these latter clouds.
The gathering of these clouds in thick darkness. Just
like it was two thousand years ago when Messiah was
being killed--
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: --the clouds came, the thunder in the
heavens--
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: --and darkness was over the earth-
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Yeah, well, that's going to be
repeated. But it says when He, God, shall rise up at
the voice of the bird. Now at the voice of the bird,
what bird? You know, Isaiah talks about Messiah and
Isaiah calls him a ravenous bird from the east. of
course we know in Revelation, the one who seals the one
hundred and forty four thousand are sins from the east.
Now, this is a very clear light. "As lightning
indiscernible! from the west. You know, when
lightning flashes, everybody sees it don't they.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: In Heaven there's lightnings,
thunders, and voices isn't there?
' 16
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: God likes a lot of rain showeres,
doesn't he?
HENRY: Sure does.
/ DAVID: Okay, so you know, these seven
thunders no doubt emphasize a fact that God wants men
to hear his word in thunder tones. Like in the Book of
Job, God is talking to Job and God says that wisdom
will be found at the end of the world in the secret
places of thunder. Have you ever heard of the seven
thunders yet, Henry?
HENRY: Seven?
DAVID: seven thunders. Revelation 10, verse
7.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: indiscernible! mystery of God the
seven thunders will be finished.
HENRY: Okay. _
DAVID: The seven seals.
HENRY: Okay. That's what we talked about,
yes, okay.
DAVID: Right. Now you know, a lot of people
are saying that I jump all over the Bible. The reason
why I do that is because all the prophets have talked
about this event.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
y. {I} 17
DAVID: And Isaiah talks about,
indiscernible! says, he says, "send ye the lamb."
Now we know who the lamb is, don't we?
HENRY: Right.
f DAVID: Send ye, now this is Isaiah 16, "send
ye the lamb to the rulers of the land from Sela for it
shall be in the wandering bird cast out of his nest.
Now who's a wandering bird? The lamb's a wandering
bird.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Cast out of his nest. And it goes on
and talks about this bird being amongst the heathen and
it says about the heathen, it says, "take counsel,"
which is what we're doing now we're taking counsel. It
says "execute judgement" We got to, we got to do some
judging now here. It says "bewray not him that
wander." You know what bewray means, don't you? when
you bewray someone? I
HENRY: Yeah.
DAVID: It means you scare them, right?
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: It says "scare not him that
wandereth," okay?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: It says, "let my outcast dwell with
thee." Okay? Now, who is this wandering bird cast out
0 ' 18
of its nest? well, you know, right before the armies
of Israel were to destroy Jericho, God placed in.
Jericho some spies, and these men were spies that were
sent from Israel to get inside the city and to watch
and'to see the activities of the city.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Well, the leaders there discovered
this and they started searching for them. And these
men made their way and finally came to a harlot's house
and we know harlots don't have a good reputation in
sociality, do they?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And her name was Rayhab. Now these
spies asked of Rayhab a very unique favor. They asked
Rayhab to hide them. Now Rayhab had been raised with
the Gods of the, you know, Philistines, the Gods of
that time, Hiradoc phonetic!, you know Bale
phonetic!, different Gods, Ishtar and everything, and
she pretty much concluded in her days of her youth that
this all baloney.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And she entered into a profession
that she knew what religion was. She knew that men
didn't love her. Men loved it. so she wasn't going to
be deceived by all this so called forms and regulations
of worship. She was going to do what was natural and
Q O .9
what was carnal. But when she saw the power of the God
of Israel in dealing with the Gods of Egypt, now
remember in the days of Egypt they had long forgotten
the miracles done in the days of Joseph.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
y DAVID: For the Pharaoh rose up and knew not
Joseph, so Israel, Egypt was once blessed, just like
America is. But they moved far beyond the beginning
point of where those blessings came from, so they came
up to the point where they had to be judged and so God
was going to use Egypt as an example to all other
nations. -
HENRY: Uh-huh.
~ DAVID: Okay. so now here, Rayhab, the harlot
witnesses this. Now she knows there's a living God in
Egypt. Well she says to these spies, you know, why
should I hide you? Your God is a true God.
You know, but she did, but she asked, she says, look,
if I show you this mercy, will you not have mercy upon
me and my house?
And so what happened was, is that they promised
her that not just her, but all the people of Jericho,
if they would come into her house, you know, that they
would be spared.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: so this is the way christ still shows
. 20
mercy in the face of a pending judgement. In the face
of a catastrophe, that God's going to execute judgement
upon the cities and the nations of men who know him
not.
' amnm Right.
DAVID: Okay, now so the only ordained
minister in all of Jericho, was a prostitute, and that
just kind of goes to show you, you can't judge people
because to whom mercy comes, the conversion comes.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And these are usually more zealous is
getting the free gift than others who don't need as
much mercy. Christ emphasizes this with Mary Magdalene
to whom much is forgiven
HENRY: Exactly. I
DAVID: They love much.
amour: Right.
DAVID: Okay, so when we, when we look at
Nahum and we say to ourselves, now, this is kind of a
complicated book and that's why a lot of people call
Isaiah, gap! hello?
HENRY: Yeah.
- DAVID: Hell, you know, they call Isaiah,
gap! hello?_
HENRY: Hello, what is happening?
DAVID: Someone stepping on the line. We got
O Q =1
it fixed.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: when they read through the
prophecies, there's so much there they don't
understand, they can't seem to put the pictures and the
statements together. There's a reason for that.
Because like I said before, we've got Matthew, Mark,
Luke and John, it seems to be quite plain about a
crucified Messiah who's non-violent. He overthrew some
tables in the synagogue a couple of times, you know.
He made a whip, you know, and kind of, you know,
whipped some people--
nu-may: uh-nun.
DAVID: You remember that, don't you?
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: Some people don't really realize
that, but he could raise his voice a little bit. He
called people fools. Be told, he told, go tell hare
that old fox, you know.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: But you know, on the over all, it's
true, like the lady said, when they went to Gethsemane,
Christ did tell his deciples to take two swords, didn't
he.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But that's all they had. But the
' 22u11n¢r it was is that when it came right to himself,
you know, Peter jumped the gun and chopped off the
Centurion's ear. He was a bad shot, wasn't he. He was
going for the guy's head. Well anyway, the thing of it
is,.4s that Christ did say that he could bring several
legions of angels down, right?
HENRY: Right.
_ DAVID: But Christ didn't want to do that,
did he?
HENRY: No.
DAVID: Cause he knew his own deciples really
didn't believe in him yet.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Now he did tell Pilot though, you'll
find this in the record of John. The question was, are
you a king? Now we talked about the bird, the
wandering bird, the lamb.
1-uzrmy: Uh-huh. '
DAVID: And the lamb that bird that's
supposed to bring about judgement and counsel, God says
do not scare him. God says hide him from the face of
the spoiler. Okay, now the spoiler must be someone
that's going to be going against this bird. I mean Cod
says he'll raise up a ravenous bird from the east.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Ecclesiastes says God will rise up at
O ' 23
the voice of the bird. gap! Hello?
HENRY: Yes.
DAVID: Hello?
HENRY: Yes. Can you hear me?
J navzn: Yeah.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Who's on the line now?
HENRY: No--
DAVID: --try it.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: So Ecclesiastes says God will rise up
gap! the bird.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Isaiah talks about the wandering
bird, the ravenous bird from the east, okay? Now what
is this counsel and this judgement that wefre supposed
to be thinking about in regards to this bird, this
lamb, this wandering bird? Why are we supposed to hide
him for, from the face of the spoiler. Well, what
happens is, it says in this time, from that day the
kingdom shall be established in mercy.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And he shall set up on the kingdom in
the house of David judgening sic! and hasting judge--
judgement and bringing everlasting righteousness.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
0 ' 24
DAVID: Now, it's kind of like wow, we know,
when does that happen? How does that happen? You
know, what does it mean, God rises up at the at the
voice of the bird? Well what position is God in
according to Revelation, do you remember? Is he laying
down? Is he standing up? Or, what's he doing?
HENRY: In Revelation?
DAVID: Yeah, what's he doing on the throne?
HENRY: He, he's sitting on the throne.
DAVID: Well, he sitting, he's in the sitting
position. So that's a good observation. Because when
all the prophecies talk about God arising up, that
means he stands up oft the throne, don't it?
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: Now when he stands up off the throne,
I wonder what he's going to do. Well if he rises up
gap! hello? V
HENRY: Hello?
DAVID: Steve, can you, can you fix this line
right here? It's, the cat, I think the cat over there
is -- just wait a little bit here. They never brought
us our phone yet. gap!
HENRY: What?
DAVID: Yeah, I guess that°s better. Well,
okay. we just, we had to rob a lot of phones and take
their little cords and stick them all together, you
¬u i 25
know how flimsy those little inserts are, right?
HENRY: Uh-huh, oh, okay, I see what you're
saying.
DAVID: Cause where I fell, I haven't been
ab1eto get up yet, and you know, we kind of have to
stretch a phone to me.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: So anyway, as we're looking at the
picture, we know God sits on a throne, he gives the
book to the lamb. We know he's going to come. He's
going to come and his testimony is going to be the
spirit of prophecy. He's going to try to teach and
forewarn the generation of which he comes in of the
soon coming impending events of the judgement.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: so that men might divert the
penalties for not listening to this great mercy that's
revealed in truth. The truth will set them free. It's
going to be their natural nature not to want to know
truth. Cause the carnal man doesn't believe in the
things of God. So the way that we have to really
realize there's a God, is we have to stop and ask
ourselves, now wait a minute, in the book of Nahum, are
those chariots really two wheeled carts made of wood?
Or are they really machinery that transport men that
have actually flaming torches that shake the earth and
O '9 =6
sound like thunder and causes the trees to shake.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
' DAVID: I mean was the prophet really looking
at a tank?
HENRY: He was looking with the experience
that he had at the time.
DAVID: And he was trying to describe what
was seeing.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: Do you know what, do you know whathe
they could have done in those days if they had a tank?
HENRY: slight laughter!
DAVID: Do you know if we had a take in the
days in two hundred years ago, we had one of these
Brads what we cou1d've done? There wouldn't have bee
no Indian problem, would there? But I tell
these things are all a part of the gifts of
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: When God said in the Book
that in the last days much knowledge shouldyou what,
creation.
of Daniel
be
increased, he means it. And the reason being is, is
that because of a lot
reasoning, they, they
infidel type spirit.
how can God write allof minds of men, in their own
create within themselves oh, an
it seems like it would take a lot pages wouldn't it?11
Like people will say you know, oh
my sins in a book? You know and
p 21
HENRY: Sure would.
DAVID: Well, you know, the God, God had to
in the ancient times, he had to communicate with man
according to the light that they had in the world. And
theform of communication was developed through the
hieroglyphics and finally became more short formed into
the structure of sounds, the syllables, the oratations
sic! of communication, the meaning of signs and
syllables, which became alphabets, numerologies. And,
you know, man, man, like I say has been able to
communicate, whereas in the days of Moses, God very
clearly required that the Hebrew inform men by the
structure of lettering, or reading, which Hebrew is
refined hieroglyphics, you know, and God so inspired it
by writing the, the dialogue, the Ten Commandments, and
you know, God had chosen this means of communication
for men to be able to transfer thought from one to
another.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Although we know that this means
sometimes falls short of actually, presenting the
actual mind of one man to another.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: I mean you can read some-you can
read your girlfriend's letter and really don't
understand what she said. So you'd have to ask, you'd
Q
. ' 2s
have to say, sweetheart, I got your letter, but what
did you mean?
HENRY : Uh-huh .
DAVID: when you said blah, blah, blah?
' HENRY : Right .
DAVID: Okay, well the same holds for any of
the prophetic writings.
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: Isaiah made a lot of statements but
we might, we might read his writings, and we might say
to ourselves, well, Isaiah, what did, what did you
mean?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: What did you really see? Of course,
Isaiah's dead. Jeremiah's dead. Just about all of the
prophet writers are dead, aren't they?
HENRY: Absolutely.
DAVID: Yeah, you see, so it's kind of like,
when someone translates their writings from Hebrew or
Aramaic into English, whatever, we're kind of left to
the mercies of the interpreters, aren't we?
HENRY: We sure are.
DAVID: The translators and that kind of
makes the Bible a little more weak, doesn't it?
HENRY: Nell.
DAVID: well, it does, because, like I say,
any fundamentalist will have a certain knowledge of29
scripture, but if he got into higher ranks of theology,
with the gentlemen up there that earned their
professors and doctor degrees and all that, right?
" assay: Uh-huh.
DAVID: He wouldn't be able to contend would
he? Because like for instance
wisdom in Proverbs 8 and 9, our
well wisdom in Proverbs 8 and 9
knowledge of man.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But of course
you know, he'd say not so, he'dwhen you talk about
person wouldn't say
is talking about
their Rabbi would say,
say the word, hokoma
phonetic! which means wise woman, which goes back to
the ancient concept
procreate through a woman, made
of dust as we are.
from our side whichof life. Whereas, you know, we
in the form and fashion
But our Creator brought this woman
is a mystery of how God with His
wisdom, the Mother of all Creation, His word, His
spirit, that gives life unto man, can also be taken
from man to make a compatible image for man. In other
words, they twain are one, aren't they?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: You're not complete unless you have a
man and a woman.
HENRY: Right.
' so
DAVID: One is not complete without the
other.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Okay, so it takes two heads to make
one.
nmmv: Right.
R DAVID: Okay, and that's fruitful then.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Communication, you got to love the
person you're talking to. You got to understand the
person you're talking to. You come together in this
communication. And the highest communication is is
that you all become two as one.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: Offspring. So it bears fruit. And
every good conversation should bear fruit, shouldn't
it?
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: Now, now Christ he doesn't, two
thousand years ago, he doesn't, he doesn't take women
and speak to them when and then come into their bodies,
does he?
_ HENRY: NO.
DAVID: Okay, so, so we know that out of
Adam, came this power to communicate, to reason, to
become one with oneself in the nature of God, and she
0 ' 31
was Eve, she was Eshia phonetic!.
HENRY: Uh-huh. '
DAVID: He was Esh phonetic! and she was
Eshia. But when they sinned, they were naked and there
f,
was a discommunication, wasn't there?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay, but now, when Christ came, Paul
says he was the fullness of the godhead bodily. And he
never had a woman, but on the cross, when they pierced
his side, a woman didn't come out, right?
HENRY: No.
DAVID: But blood and water came out. Now
water seems to be a symbol of the spirit. The
submersion in the spirit, pure and holy water of
cleansing. You know, just as we have a dirty body, we
wash our bodies with water, we become clean.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Well what if you have a dirty mind?
How can we wash our minds from filth? Well, we have to
have a different kind of water, don't we? '
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Christ talks about living water. He
talks about a spiritual water. He was at a well with a
woman who was a Samaritan woman, and no Jewish man ever
went down to Samaria unless they were looking for
prostitutes.
' 32
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: So Christ was in Samaria by this well
and this woman in Samaria is there and she comes up 8¢
Christ says, you know, Give me to drink, please." And
she looks at him kind of like out of the corner of her
eye, and she says, "Sir, how, how is that thou being a
Jew asketh me a Samaritan woman, you know, "for a
drink of water, for the Jews have nothing to do with
Samaritans?" And of course you know, she's questioned
this because that's just the way it was.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And the Samaritans considered, they
were considered half breeds. They were considered, you
know, mingled amongst the Gentiles indiscernible!
second temple time and the Jews just thought they were
too pure them.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And Christ says, "Woman, if you knew
the gift of God, and who it is that asketh of thee to
give me drink, you would've asked me and I would've
given you living waters." Now the woman looks at him
kind of funny because what that means to her is that
he's making a pass at her.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: She says, "Sir, how giveth me those
living waters seeing that the well is deep and thou has
O U ==
nothing to draw with?" Now what happens is, Christ
tells her to go call her husband. Go call thy husband.
So that startles her. That shocks her. She says, I
have no husband. And he says, well you indiscernible!
said you don't have a husband, but you've had five
husbands. And the man you're with now is not your
husband. Yeah, you're telling the truth. Now, that
floored her. Okay?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Now, those living
spirit of prophecy. The ability to
with the very necessities and needs
She said Sir, I perceive thouwaters was the
know that to deal
of a simple heart.
are a prophet." And
then she went into the subject_of, we know the messiah
is coming and when he cometh he will show us all
things. Then Christ tells her,
indiscernible!. Then she goes
about the Samaritan saying that
worship God in the mountains of
HENRY: Uh-huh.I've been talking with
and she tries to talk
we're supposed to
Samaria.
DAVID: And the Jews say we're supposed God
in the Temple of Jerusalem.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Then she says, 'Wwhat do you say?"
He says, "Woman, verily, verily
time is coming and even as now,I say unto you, the
when they, the true
O Q 3.
worshippers of God, will neither worship God in
Jerusalem now in the mountains of Samaria." Now,
that's very important information. He says, "for God
is a spirit, and those that worship the father, must
worship him in spirit and in truth." Now, see this
living water, it's a unique thing to cleanse our minds,
to help our minds to know where we're coming from,
where God's coming from. So in Revelations 22nd
Chapter, there is a River of the water of Life, clear
as crystal. Proceeding from the throne of God and the
throne of the lamb, right?
RENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And what is this living water? Well
John says he was in the spirit. when he literally went
to heaven or whether he had a vision, makes no
difference. The point is, we literally see God on the
throne. Must be. If we have anything to do with this
Bible, must be. New Testament, you know.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And he must give his book to the
lamb. Must be, now that doesn't mean the lamb really
is a lamb. It doesn't mean he has really seven eyes.
It doesn't mean he has really seven horns. But it does
mean that whatever that book contains, the lamb has
authority over it, that's why the horn's a symbol of it
isn't it?
'0 as
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And he also has perfect vision of it.
He knows what's in his father's book. so that when the
time comes and there's time no longer, when this
mystery of God has to be finished, this subject will
judge the greatest nation that's ever been, and a
nation that's been more blessed than any other nation
in the world.
HENRY: That's right.
DAVID: And the keynote is is that sad to
say, scripture forewarns that the heathen will not
understand.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: It even goes to explain why they
won't understand. You see Pharaoh believed he was God.
Now most people believe that whatever they think in
their mind is of God. That's what I'm being accused of
right now. There saying, well, he thinks God's talking
to him, so he's just putting a kink, you know, in our
plan or he's scared and he's trying to buy time, or you
know, this is natural for the way men think. A natural
terrorist would do that. A natural, you know, person
that's into apparently a lot trouble would do that.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: But really, like I was telling Jim,
and of the two negotiators that really have it under
"'; "! as
the belt, I have to admit that you and Jim have it
together.
HENRY: Well, thank you.
DAVID: Not all the guys there. Some of
them some of them are kind of, you know, hey you know,
it's kind of like psychology is supposed to be really a
sympathy thing. A good psychologist does more
listening than talking.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Because when a person talks out their
mind, you know, they're able to reach into their, their
emotional system, the genetics, the way the mind has
been taught, the way the brain cells have encoded
knowledge and experience. And, sometimes people have
bad knowledge and bad phases of experience, that are
encoded into their mind, and their mind actually
produces a physiological affect on their nervous
system.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: which produces an ill effect on their
physical system.
nanny: Right.
DAVID: And people become really torn down
physically. Mental sickness is a likewise a physical
sickness. They both go in hand in hand.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
6 37
DAVID: Okay, so, so a psychologist begins at
the source of all evil, and the source of sickness by
allowing the person to let the wounded heart'bleed a
bit.
" nanny: rm-mm.
DAVID: Let the sore ooze, you know, get the
poison out.
1-xmmv: Right.
DAVID: And instead of a psychologist telling
a person under such drama immediately what to do, they
realize that the person that's having this drama has
already done a lot of things which has produced an ill
effect upon his perception or his course of life.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And so the person really just needs
the time to backtrack and audibly speak without
restraint their views which has led them to the point
of their crisis.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: So you know, this is where you and
Jim have definitely done your job well.
HENRY: Well, you--
DAVID: Go ahead.
HENRY: Well you do your job pretty well too.
And I think, you know--
DAVID: -not bad for a ninth grade dropout,
huh?' as
HENRY: Well, no not bad at all. And I think
that the, you know, the message that you gave on the,
on television and on radio, a lot of people heard, and
I think when you cone out a lot of people are going to
continue listening to you. And,
about the people that are within
talking about a lot of Christian
that, whose lives you've touched
.to youI'm not just talking
the compound. I'm
people that are, that,
and who are listening
DAVID: -well I'll definitely have a long
time, I'll definitely have a long time to give it,
won't I?
HENRY: Well, um, yes,
doesn't matter where you're at.
DAVID:
the apostle spent
HENRY: -exactly.
DAVID:
that.
HENRY:
DAVID:
worry about goingyou will. But it
That's true. I mean, you know, Paul,
most of his time in prison
-giving the last messages, I realize
That's right, that's right.
At least that way, you don't have to
to work or nothing, you know, you can
just sit back and hopefully, if I'm notorious, they
won't dump me with no bubbas, huh?
HENRY: That's right.
. 0 ..
DAVID: Yeah. Of course, I don't know, you
know, there's a lot of rumors that I molest children
which makes me madder than a firecracker, but you know,
there's a lot of bubbas and they, they want to molest
you if they think you molest children.!
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But, you know, like I say, it's just
the way the world is. I
HENRY: See, I think that you've shown a lot
of compassion for the children--
DAVID: The children are the reason why I
live.
HENRY: Well, and you've shown that, and
that's been very instrumental. You immediately started
letting the children come out of the compound because
some of them are concerned and afraid and they don't
understand everything that's going on. And I think
that that's been real good. And I would-
DAVID: They're unable to make at this point
a real decision in regards to--
HENRY: Exactly, exactly-
DAVID: -you know, choosing good and evil,
so to speak.
HENRY: Right.
DAVID: And--
HENRY: --and I want us to continue with
40
that. I would like to see you continue sending out-
DAVID: we're going to, we're going to.
HENRY: Okay, good.
DAVID: You know, we're, like I say, we're at
the'point now to where, you know, my father, my God,
our God, you know, whether we, acknowledge him or not.
Our God is keeping a very strict and close eye on every
movement that's being made.
HENRY: Absolutely.
DAVID: And he's watching this nation, and
all of heaven's watching. We know that.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: We hope that.
HENRY: Hell that's true.
DAVID: And people all across this country
and even some people in other parts of the countries
are having two positions to look at me by.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID:_ The one position is, is that, well
he's a liar, he said he's going to come out
immediately, which is exactly what I said. But let me
explain something to you about me Henry.
HENRY: Go ahead.
DAVID: There's someone that's bigger than
me. Now this is really a political matter. Let me
explain.
/-920 HENRY: Okay. 0
DAVID: In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, it
was said, it was said, you know, I'll come quickly.
Every intention, every. sincerity, was in that
statement. But Paul and the apostles, wrote to their
church that Christ was - -
end of tape 33.!
4/
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
'__
~ TAPES #34 & 35
March 3, 1993
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.
Court Reporting Depositions
D.C. Area 261-1902
Balt. l Annap. 976-0967
O 9 2
Tape 34!
HENRY: These people have heard and they're
waiting and that's fine and,;and -- you know, and they
need to. And I think that not only those people, but a
lot of people that are Christians are watching and
waiting because they want to hear, they're hungry to
hear, what you have to say. And --
MR. KORESH: Well, have you ever read the
66th Chapter of Isaiah? Are you familiar with that?
HENRY: No. Tape ends abruptly!
Tape 35!
HENRY: You're going to send me some kids
out, right?
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah. _
HENRY: Okay. Who's, who's going to be
coming out?
MR. KORESH: Well, we have -- like I said,
they're all sleeping right now. We have to figure that
out when - what time is it now anyway?
HENRY: It's not late. It's only 11:00,
11:30.
M. KORESH: I see. You at 66 right now?
HENRY: I'm at 15:18, 15.
MR. KORESH: It's the last chapter.
Actually, in the original manuscript there was no such
thing as chapters.
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6 5 3 HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And it kind of puts a kink in
man's mind when he sometimes disconnects the, the words
or the subjects.
HENRY: Yeah. I'm on 66. Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, you know how big the
Catholic churches are, right?
HENRY: Um-hum. -
MR. KORESH: They're pretty expensive, aren't
they?
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: And you know a lot of other
churches like to build big churches too, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Well, the Jews like big
synagogues, didn't they?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And Christ told them that their
house was left to them desolate, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Because by rejecting Christ
there was no need for them even to have a Bible, was
there? , '
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: He was the only true
interpreter, wasn't he?
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Q 9 4A HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But anyway, God makes the
statement when he says, "Blessed is the Lord, the
heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool.
Where is the house that ye build unto me?" I mean, you
know, what can you build for me to dwell in? "Where is
the place of my rest?" Where can God come in and sit
down at? Ain't it kinda funny for man to think that
God is honored by the buildings of men?
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: I mean, where, where is God's
throne really at? In heaven, isn't it?
HENRY: It is.
MR. KORESH: "For all those things that my
hand made and all those things have been, saith the
Lord." I mean, all the universes, all the suns, all
the earths, all that inhabits the universe. Now, how
many stars do you think are out there as far as you can
see?
HENRY: More than I can count.
MR. KORESH: Huh. So, if we just got one
person from each one of those solar systems and brought
them all together, how many, how many soldiers do you
think Christ would have?
HENRY: Phew.
MR. KORESH: Quite a bit, huh?
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Q O
HENRY: Yeah.5
MR. KORESH: Okay. Okay. Now, it says here,
"But to this man will I look,'and this is what's
happening right now, God's watching. "Even to him that
is poor and of a contrite spirit and trembleth at my
word."
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, God doesn't want to
dwell in buildings, God wants to dwell in spirit and in
truth. He wants to be in your mind. He wants you to
listen to his word. "He that killeth an ox is as if he
slew a man." God wants you to stop and think when
you're eating that hamburger, think about it.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: When you take life, whether even
if it's the life of an animal, think about it.
HENRY: Umhum . '
MR. KORESH: "He that sacrificeth a lamb, as
if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an
oblation," which is a burnt offering of blood or
"as if he offered swine's blood." You know, God
eat pork, does he?
HENRY: NO.
MR. KORESH: "He that burneth incense,
he blessed an idol." A lot of people have a lot
strange ways or worshipping God, don't they?
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don't
as if
of
92
0 Q 6
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Especially the Jews. They, they
loved the sacrificial system¢fdidn't they?
HENRY: Uh-huh;
z MR. KORESH: Okay. "Yes, they have chosen
their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their
abominations. I also will choose their delusions."
What's God going to do to these people? Give them
delusions? Huh. I wonder what kind of delusions
they'll be? "I will bring their fears upon them."
wonder what these people are afraid of? "Because when
I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not
hear: but they did evil before my eyes, and chose that
in which I delighted not." Phew. "Hear the word of
the Lord, ye that tremble at his word. Your brethren
that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake,
said, "Let the Lord be glorified." Now, this seems
kind of funny. "Hear the word of the Lord ye that
tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you" I
mean, we're all brethren aren't we?
HENRY: Right.
MR. KORESH: This one group cast another
group out, right E
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: - because of God's name sake,
right?
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Q O 7
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: And yet they say, "Let the Lord
be glorified." They must bejtalking about another
lord. You know, I bet if Christ was to come in the
latter days to reveal the mysteries of the prophets I
bet you there'd be so many people that would say, you
know, "Let Jesus be glorified." You know, it's so
funny -- " "
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: - how that it's so clear that
Christ of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who had done no
sin ascended to the right hand of God and that John
writes in the future that same Christ has received a
direction from his father, seven seals, and he's
supposed to come into the world again, isn't he --
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: - bringing his reward?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: So how you - how you -- how
will you know what his reward is? Well, we know if
anybody proclaims to teach the seven seals, he's really
indirectly saying he's who? He's Christ, right?
HENRY: Exactly. l
MR. KORESH: Now, the question remains then,
all right, mister wise guy, you think you're something,
I don't know you from the man in the moon, all right,
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0 0 8
then well, show me those seals. Now, when you learn
the seals, wow, it's pretty scary, and you start
trembling at God's word because you've got one foot at
this time on heaven and-one foot in hell and you got to
get both feet one place or the other. But now, there
is a name that no one knows but he himself and his name
is the word of God and so for my name's sake, for the
name of God's sake, for the truth of God, Christ comes.
And it says here that there are those who reject those
who believe this and they say, "Let the Lord be
glorified, but he," the one they really don't know,
"Shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed."
What happens? "A voice of noise from the city, a voice
from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth
recompense to his what?"
HENRY: Enemies.
MR. KORESH: Enemies. Huh. "Before she
travailed, she brought forth." Now, how do you bring
forth before you travail? I thought the girl had to go
in pain first, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But this says no, it says,
"Before she travailed she brought forth; before her
pain came she was delivered of a man child." Huh. Who
was she? What man child? "Who has heard such a thing?
Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to
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I U 9
bring forth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at
once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth
her children." Now, what is this talking about?
"Shall I bring to the birth and not cause to bring
forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth,
and shut up the womb? saith thy God. Rejoice ye with
Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her:
rejoice for joy with her, all ye that bemoan for her:
that you may suck, and be satisfied with the breast of
her consolations; that ye may milk out and, and be
delighted with the abundance of her glory. For the
Lord -- for thus saith the Lord, "Behold, I will extend
peace to her like a river, and the glory of the
gentiles like a flowing stream; then shall ye suck and
ye shall be borne upon her sides and be dangled upon
her knees. As one who his mother comforteth, so will I
comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
And when ye shall see this, your heart shall rejoice,
and your bones shall flourish like an herb; and the
hand of the Lord shall be known towards his what?"
HENRY: Servants.
MR. KORESH: What's in the hand? The seven
seals, right? l
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: "And his indignation towards his
what?"
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0 10 i 4 HENRY: Enemies. i
MR. KORESH: Those who don't want to learn
the seven seals, right? 7?-
HENRY: Um-hum;
' MR. KORESH: "For, behold, the Lord will come
with fire, and with his chariots like the whirlwind."
These things -- go like this -- they sound like this,
they go, they go, whoo, whoo, I can't do it, can"t go
that deep. Oh man, they're awesome, wait I mean,
there's going to be 20,000 of these things, okay?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And on one melkevah - on one of
these melkevahs you could put all the inhabitants of
the world just on one, that's how big they are.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Now, for "With the chariots
like a whirlwind to render his anger with fury, and his
rebukes with flames of fire. For by fire and by his
sword will the Lord plead with all flesh; and the slain
of the Lord shall be many." Well, who's going to be
slain? - "They that sanctify themselves" See, you
can't sanctify yourself. If you try to sanctify
yourself that's blasphemy. l
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: You've got to go to a
sanctuary --
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HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: -- to be sanctified. In nature
every animal lives in its natural habitat, right?
HENRY: Um-hum;
A MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, why don't you come
on up hither? Up hither is my sanctuary. My father
sits here on a throne. See all these thousands times
ten thousands and thousands and thousands of angels?
Okay. Now, my father gave me a book and don't think
that I'm proud or arrogant because when I come back
here to show this book no one's going to bow before me,
no one's going to know where I'm coming from. They're
going to call me stupid, they're going to call me crazy
because I don't walk to the rudiments of this world.
They're going to misjudge me, misunderstand me, but
that's all right, I can take it because I love, okay?
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: Now, but come on back up here
hither though. In the first seal we see in Psalms 45
who's going to ride prosperously because the truth, we
know who's going to win, no problem, okay? And we want
to learn who's going to lose. "They that sanctify
themselves." The word sanctuary is tied in with the
word sanctification. When you adapt to your
surroundings then you're sanctified to that sanctuary
or place of dwelling, right?
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HENRY: Um-hum.
MR; KORESH: Now, in this sanctuary up hither
we are sanctified by the knowledge of seven seals,
right? 0
" '4 HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And that's the sanctification of
the God who sits on the throne.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: But, "They that sanctify
themselves and purify themselves in the garden behind
one tree in the midst," what tree do you think they're
eating of, figuratively? What's the tree that Adam and
Eve wanted to eat?
HENRY: The tree of -
MR. KORESH: Knowledge of good and evil.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: I guess everybody likes that
tree, don't they?
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: Yum, yum, yum. They don't want
to do what God says, do they?
HENRY: No.
MR. KORESH: They want to take not of the
tree of life, but they want to take of the tree of
knowing what it means to do against God's will and get
the bitter curse for it.
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' HENRY: Umhum .
MR. KORESH: Now, but these people revealed
this in the midst eating swine"s flesh, "And the
abomination, and the mouse," you don't think people eat
mice, do you?
HENRY: No.
MR. KORESH: Well, people used to.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: But another thing is this, you
know, your RDA and all that, these regulations, have
you ever been to a bread mill before in our country?
Have you ever seen the mass amount of wheat that"s put
into these granaries and everything?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: They wash it, don't they?
_ HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: Well, we used to combine wheat
when I was a young boy and I used to go down to the big
silos and we used to -- we, we had a, we had a city co-
op granary.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But things started changing, you
know, the, the Dallas and Richardson area and Garland
area stopped farming cotton and wheat like they used
to.
HENRY: Um-hum.
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MR. KORESH: But what happens -- we used to
go down there, we used to see these, these - some of
these rats were like a foot and a half long everywhere.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And some of the grain would end
up with so much rat crap in it you couldn't, you
couldn't believe it.
HENRY: Um-hum. ~
MR. KORESH: And not all that stuff gets
washed out, but it does get ground up though and it is
made into flour, you know? Now, if they bleach it
that's pretty good, of course, bleached flour is not
that good for you anyway. But these people are eating
these cal-free, talking about eating this wholewheat
bread and all that?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: They're getting a little part of
mouse, that's the waste part of a mouse. But anyway,
it says, "Shall be consumed together saith the Lord.
For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall
come that I will gather all nations and tongues; and
they shall come, and see my glory. And I will set a
sign among them." You know what the sign is, don't
you, the end sign? It's a great one.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: From the rise of the sun to the
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O Q 15
west everyone's going to know who the Messiah is
because God's going to, God's going to judge the
greatest nation in the worldin the latter days to show
the whole world that no matter how big you get, no
matter how powerful you get, no matter how intelligent
you get, watch the little guy. If you don't watch out
for him -- you know, Robert, you know, I was going to
let him stay here with me for two weeks. "
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: You know? He could have lived
right here with me. He could have, he could have
discovered everything.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
MR. KORESH: I sure wish he had waited for
that because he said he was going to.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
MR. KORESH: You know, really in all honesty
and in all judgment -
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- the problem did not begin
with us here.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: And that's why I wanted to talk
so bad to Robert, because, you know, he met some of the
guys, we knew who they were when they first moved in.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
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" MR. KORESH: You know?
HENRY: Uhhuh.
MR. KORESH: And Issent some of the boys over
there and I said, well, this is the way the system is
working and I said, remember, that these guys don't
know us, they don't know me and we're going to treat
them just like we treat everybody else.
HENRY: Okay. -
MR. KORESH: And we sat over there and all
that, we gave them them beer, cause like I say in
scripture we're supposed to thithe the weak and strong,
we did not excessively drink alcohol. We had maybe one
beer at a time, maybe two, within a period of like --
we'd regulate - yeah, I'm a boss, I, I regulate it,
one beer within an hour. I do not believe in
intoxication, but you know, God has allowed men to have
certain things to allow their nervous system to rest in
moderation.
HENRY: Uhhuh, uhhuh. When you said you
had a few beers over there, what are you talking about?
MR. KORESH: Over with, over with Robert and
them.
HENRY: Oh, okay.
MR. KORESH: Oh, they never would let the
guys come in, but they'd just sit outside, stand
outside in the cold.
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n {ah 17J HENRY: Oh, okay.
MR. KORESH: You know? But the thing of it
was is that, you know, Robertvand all those guys over
there especially the one guy that was, you know,
connected with the communications system and all that?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: You know, I mean it's, it's just
like - man, it's like people have to always deceive
and lie and, and, you know -- so anyway, we allowed
them to come over. And, and I told Robert, I when
Robert brought his AR15 over here, one-seven twist,
you know, he had, he had that trigger job done so
immaculate, you know, and he's, he's trying to act like
he doesn't know nothing about it. Well, there, well,
there's one thing that, that, that you can never fake.
You know what that is?
HENRY: What's that?
MR. KORESH: Experience. You can never act
like you don't know how to drive when you do.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: You can act like you do know how
to drive and people will say you don't. But if you try
to act like you can't ride or you try to act like you
can't ride a bicycle, you'll, you'll be able to show
everyone that you can.
HENRY: Um-hum.
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NJ MR. KORESH: So when Robert comes over here
and he brings this pistol with the pin-point scope on
it and all that and everythings feathered and
everything and the action and all that super set on
it -1-
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: you know, and wants to ask me
about it? You know, I told him, I says, Robert you
know everything about this pistol, you know?
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: When he comes over and he wants
to talk about, you know, can he, can he shoot his
pistol and all this kind of stuff, you know, I said,
fine, I says, you can come over and you can shoot at
the back part of the property. I says we shoot out
there sometimes.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
MR. KORESH: You know?
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: And, and he came over one day
and I went out there with him and, and, you know, I
showed him a cig -- I showed him a couple of new cigs
that I had --
HENRY: Um-hum.
" MR. KORESH: -- you know? And I really liked
the guy so much, you know. And I liked Jeff, you know.
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But --
HENRY: See, these, these people that you're
talking about, I don't know them, okay? I don't know
Robert, I don't know any of these guys. Those guys
worked for ATF --
MR. KORESH: Right.
HENRY: -- so I don't know them.
MR. KORESH: Right.
HENRY: Okay?
MR. KORESH: Well, I was, I was explaining,
yeah, see those were, those were the guys that
originally were sent to, you know, investigate --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- to spy out the situation, you
know?
HENRY: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: And of course when he was coming
over for studies, you know, not everybody was coming to
the studies but like, you know, his, his, his eyes, his
eyes wander too much. You know, that's, that's all
right. '
HENRY: Laughter! What do you mean
wandered? l
MR. KORESH: Huh?
HENRY: What do you mean wandered?
MR. KORESH: Oh, he was counting the people.
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HENRY: Oh, oka
MR. KORESH: Se
HENRY: Okay
MR. KORESH: YO
J
0girls sit on one side and
I, I began to explain to
there's things here that
at first. I said, but yo
Jewish synagogue you'll s
HENRY: That's
MR. KORESH: --
HENRY: -- same
MR. KORESH: --
now, there's --
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: SO
young men like I know, I,
he, he was convicted by i
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: An
happened that morning was
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Yo
morning and he brought in
FREE STATE_b-O ~»
,_
O 2»
y. I see what you're saying.
e, but I donlt mind that.
u know, and he saw that the
the guys sit on the other and
him, I said now look, Robert,
we do you might not understand
u go to any synagogue or any
ee the --
right, same thing --
men and women --
thing.
sit separately. And I says,
a reason for this.
anyway, anyway, the, the, the
92
I know that what I showed him
t.
d I actually believe that what
partially a mistake.
u know, he, he came over that
the second issue of, of, you
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know, David Koresh the demon,
HENRY: Um-hum.21
you know --
HR. KORESH: -- theihewspaper, "Waco
Tribune." W
" HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And, you know, that's the last
opportunity I had to tell him, you know, that --
because I looked him straight
explain to him or reviewed to
showed him -- I said now Robert, I
showed you these things and you've
the book.
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: I says, you
everybody, I want peace, I want toin the eye and I began to
him what -- how I'd
says, you know, I've
seen it right out of
know, I love
be understood, but I
want to be understood from this book.
HENRY: And I think
very important when you, when
compound for you to tell this
story because it is necessary
only the side that the ATF isthat it's going to be
you come out of the
story and the entire
for everybody to know not
going to present, but
also the side that you need to present. I think it's
very necessary, I think it's imperative that you do
that.
MR. KORESH: Well, that's true too, so here's
the thing. So, you know, I saw the, the worry in his
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0 ' 0 22
eyes, you know, and, and, you know, Robert, you know,
Robert was, Robert was the most experienced one over
there . I,-2"
HENRY: Umhum;
J MR. KORESH: I mean, the guy had some real
iron, iron shackles for a conscience, you know what I
mean?
HENRY: Umhum. '
MR. KORESH: But the thing of it was is that
that morning he was -- you know, like I, I knew he was
being bothered.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: You know, that was the morning
of the big bust.
HENRY: Um-hum. 4
MR. KORESH: And so, you know, like I said, I
told him, I says, Robert, I says, you realize that from
what I've shown you out of this book it's in your hands
now, you know, you have to do what you have to do and I
have to do what I have to do.
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: And boy, I was just like hoping
and praying that, you know, he would have been able to
make the right decision to say, you know, hey, let's
wait. Now, what I was doing all along, just to make a
point, is I was jogging up and down this road, this
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mile and a half strip --
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: -- andffor the longest time you
boys could have snagged me anytime you wanted.
J HENRY: Uh-huh. Did you, did you, did you
jog on a -- you know, like on a particular schedule
like in the morning or in the afternoon or whatever?
MR. KORESH: Well, yeah, sometimes in -- you
know, in the afternoon during the day.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Robert, Robert was around quite
a bit then all of a sudden, you know, they began to
feel -- realize that, you know --
HENRY: So, so, Robert saw you --
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.
HENRY: -- jogging? Okay.
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, it
was just --
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- you know, a routine, routine
thing, you know?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: And, you know, I made myself
opened. You know, and this is a point in the judgment
that's going to be brought out too, in God's judgment.
HENRY: Sure.
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V M. KORESH: You know, I mean you all got
such great observation, you know that I drive in my
black '68 Camaro - -'
HENRY: Um-hum;
MR. KORESH: - you know, it's always parked
out there.
HENRY: Umhum. _
MR. KORESH: I've gone to town, I've seen you
guys in town, you know, looking and stuff, you know,
and observing.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: I mean -- well, well, not you,
but, you know, the ATP.
HENRY: I understand, yeah.
MR. KORESH: And, you know, it's kind of
like - it's just -- you know, the, the real sad
reality is this: they wanted a big one.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: They wanted a spectacular one.
And it's just -- it's sad that there has to be that
kind of immaturity when I have done everything to be
able to put myself in a position to where logic and
simplicity, soberness and maturity can do a better
work.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: I mean, you know, anytime that,
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Q Q 25
that, that I was in -- and then they have the nerve to
say on the news I never went to town. That is baloney,
you know? ~f'
HENRY: Okay.
J MR. KORESH: I'm always going to Wal-Mart, I
mean I'm always driving in the open.
HENRY: See, and that's, and that's why it's
important for you to give your story, or your part of
the -- of well, what happened, your story, you need
to, to deliver as soon as you come out and I'm sure
that that opportunity will be afforded to you.
MR. KORESH: Well, you know, the processing
of the --
HENRY: Let me ask you something. Do you
think that Robert and -- was trying to cause you
physical harm?
MR. KORESH: Well now remember, these young
bucks have a certain --
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: - ingrafted way of thinking --
HENRY: Okay. I see what you're saying.
MR. KORESH: -- you know? And, and the thing
of it is, is that one thing about that mentality is, is
that we're on one side and you're on another.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: You know, we've heard, we've
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Q Q 2.
gathered information, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and
you know, it's just like 2,000 years ago, the Roman
centurions were sent to arrest'Christ, you know, and
they, they ended up into a crowd situation to where the
crowd was just too big and they were concerned that if
they did anything openly at that -- right at that
moment they'd have to bring in bigger troops.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: So some of the guys that were
waiting around for the crowd to disperse and take him,
you know, off the side --
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: - they got involved into
listening.
HENRY: Yeah. I see what you're saying.
That makes sense.
M. KORESH: Okay. When they started
listening they kind of like, you know --
HENRY: Umhum.
HR. KORESH: Well, like they told them, they,
they, they came back emptyhanded and they says, "Where
is he?" And, and the guard -- Roman guard says, Well,
never a man spake as this man before."
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: I mean, what he was saying was,
you know, I think these Jews are just being crazy.
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Because Jews were always making allegations anyway.
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: They were saying he was
seditious, his purpose was to overthrow Rome, he was
claiming to be a king, he was going to cause the great
uprising, the Messiah was going to come and
overthrow -- you know, they were in the time of the
fourth kingdom which they thought, you know --
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: - was the kingdom where a
Messiah would set up a kingdom, not realizing that it
was become, you know, the facet of the legs of iron,
West and, West and Eastern Rome --
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: -- and so, you know, then all of
a sudden it was just split into many kingdoms. The
feet which we now know as Europe, and in the days of
Europe while Europe is still predominant, you know,
Revelation tells us there's one more aspect there's
the beast that's lamb-like.
HENRY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: An empire that'll raise up, you
know, professing great Christianity --
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: - but it'll speak as a dragon.
HENRY: Yeah.
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MR. KORESH: In other words, won't be telling
the truth about it, you know what I mean? They didn't
tell you the truth, Henry. Ihése churches didn't tell
you the truth, did they?
X HENRY: No.
MR. KORESH: They didn't tell you what must
be after John's day as the revelation of Christ that
only Christ could reveal did they? ~
HENRY: That's right.
MR. KORESH: Okay. So --
HENRY: See, I, I think that, that you have a
very powerful message, I really do, you know, and, and
you know it yourself because --
MR. KORESH: But I have to get my --
HENRY: -- the people that, the people that
listen to you, you know, you know that you have a, a
significant impact on them, you know, and I can see it,
you know? And I thought that there was --
MR. KORESH: Well, it's the truth.
HENRY: -- and -- exactly, and that's why I
was -- I had a great urgency when I spoke to you before
because I didn't have an idea whether you were going to
live or not live and I wanted to because you had --
because of the statements that you made, because of the
word that you, that, that you delivered and because you
said that you were coming out immediately, I didn't
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want you t
because ev
you know,
I thought
you're com
the right
you sent
hoping th
okay?
going to,
now -- Ke
Kevin?
And likeI 29
o die in there.
MR. KORESH: Well, I was --
HENRY: And you knowethat, and you know that
ery time that_I talked to you I said to you,
I didn't want you to die within the compound,
it was necessary that you come out and I know
ing out.
MR. KORESH: Right. .
HENRY: Okay? So I, I think that we're on
track, okay? And I like also the fact that
one of the, one of the kids out, and I'm
at you're going to send me now a couple kids,
MR. KORESH: Well, like I said --
HENRY: I think it's, it's important --
MR. KORESH: -- this, this morning we're
we're going to send - Mark wants to go
vin wants to go.
HENRY: Okay. So you're going to send me
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
HENRY: And who else?
MR. KORESH: That's Mark's brother.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: And we're going to send Kevin.
I say, then we're going to sit back here and
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,i ="92
O U 3°
we're going to wait and you're going to let these
individuals, they're not my followers, they're the
followers of God's word. yf
HENRY: Well --
MR. KORESH: Let me explain.
HENRY: Well, I -- you know, when I, when I
say that --
-- I understand what
followers, followersMR. KORESH: Let me explain.
HENRY: -- I don't, I don't, I don't mean to
you're saying and when I say your
of the word of God, you know, that
you are delivering in the fashion that you do. You
know -- you say you're not educated, you're self-
educated. You know, and, and --
MR. KORESH: It's inspiration.
HENRY: Exactly. Okay. And they, they all
look to you because you deliver the, the word in the,
in the fashion that you do.
good
send
want
want
what did,
you said?me those kids
to be able to
to talk aboutMR. KORESH: Make plain the testimony of old.
HENRY: You know, and that would be a real
time, it would be an excellent time for you to
and I'll tell you why. Because I
go to these bosses and say look, you
sincere? Look you, you knock this,
what did you call it, that little place that
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i MR. KORESH: Oh, the -- our -- first of all,
our camper at the front they, they ran over it and they
ran over our blue shed that had someone else's
belongings in it. -
1 HENRY: Okay. That's what I want to say. I
want to say look, talk about sincerity or not
sincerity, I asked this guy to send me some kids as a,
as a sign of good faith after you did this, and he did
it.
MR. KORESH: Well --
HENRY: Is this guy sincere or is he not
sincere --
MR. KORESH: Look, it doesn't --
HENRY: -- tell me that.
HENRY: Look, look, if you guys were to come
in and try to bust us --
HENRY: Ah, we're not talking --
MR. KORESH: No, wait a minute.
HENRY: -- about that.
MR. KORESH: You come in and --
HENRY: We're not talking about that.
MR. KORESH: -- you come in and bust us, but
I am so sincere -- I
HENRY: I know that you are.
MR. KORESH: -- that I am trying to keep you
and your nation from being busted.
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HENRY: And I appreciate --
MR. KORESH: And I'm telling you, you may not
believe it -- __.__.._
I.
HENRY: And I appreciate that.
J HENRY: -- you may not care to knowthe
prophets, you may be trying to pacify me, but
nonetheless, the words that I am sharing with you --
HENRY: And I appreciate that. '
MR. KORESH: -- you are going to be
it.
HENRY: I
you're sincere. Do
these guys and, and
you're this sincerejudged by
appreciate that and I know that
this for me so that I can go to
show them that, that I believe that
that you will go that far.
MR. KORESH: Look, I'm, I'm going to do what
I have to
do.do and you're going to do what you have to
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: I'm talking to you like I talked
to Robert.
HENRY: Okay. Robert?
MR. KORESH: Like I talked to Robert
Gonzalez. Robert -- we was talking about Robert?
HENRY: Umhum.
M. KORESH: That was that ATF agent.
HENRY: Yeah, okay.
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MR. KORESH: Okay. So anyway, like I say
a little bit, in the first part of light, Kevin
coming out and - ;f'
HENRY: What time is, what time is that?
MR. KORESH: Well, what, what time does it
light around here, about seven o'clock, 6:30?
it now?
to have
out?
enough?
talkingHENRY: You don't want, you don't want to do
MR. KORESH: No, I want him to sleep.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: And I want, I want some people
some rest a little bit.
HENRY: How many people are you going to send
MR. KORESH: One child.
HENRY: One?
MR. KORESH: One.
HENRY: Now see, that --
MR. KORESH: Am I, am I not being sincere
' 1
HENRY: Oh no, yes, I think that you -
MR. KORESH: Well, come and bust us then.
HENRY: I'm not talking about that, I'm not
about that. Now, one of the concerns that I
had is that -- or one of the concerns that I have is
Sita, you know, feels she is in a quandary.
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MR. KORESH: Let me explain something to you.
Let me explain something to you.
HENRY: Okay. _
MR. KORESH: These individuals God is not
justjudging, what he's judging, the people that are
with me. Now, let me explain.
' HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: There's a truth here;
HENRY: I understand.
MR. KORESH: Some of these girls have already
given their children --
HENRY: Yes.
MR. KORESH: - and they're being tested -
HENRY: Yes.
MR. KORESH: -- and they're being tempted and
they are within themselves having to fight with their
emotions and their feelings. And just like the other
day when Sita went out with the children, I've
explained to each one of these girls that if they wish
they can take their own children.
HENRY: But, but --
MR. KORESH: Now let me explain.
HENRY: Okay. '
MR. KORESH: And if they desire to, they can
get in that van too.
HENRY: Yes, but, but when you put it in that
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fashion it makes it, it makes it seem like they are
turning their backs on you.
MR. KORESH: Well,;Iook --
HENRY: I don't want them to feel that way,
you know, the --
MR. KORESH: -- no, no, no, no, that is, that
is the fairest --
HENRY: Yes, it is fair.
MR. KORESH: -- sober --
HENRY: It is fair.
MR. KORESH: -- self-directed decision they
can make.
HENRY: Yes, but if you put --
MR. KORESH: If you're not going to give them
the time -- if it takes ten years, you know -- if
you're not going to give them the time, you know, to be
able to see it with their own minds and weigh and out
and measure --
HENRY: But they need your nod of approval.
MR. KORESH: No, no, no, they --
HENRY: They need to feel --
MR. KORESH: -- do never obey me.
HENRY: Well, I'm not talking about --
MR. KORESH: You see, I teach things on a
daily basis. These people know one thing about me:
they know that people have stolen from me, they know
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that people have lied to me, they know people have done
sins against me, and I have always left my door open t0
these people. You may teach people a thousand truths,
but they may make a thousand errors against it.
J HENRY: That's right.
MR. KORESH: My people are not perfect
people.
HENRY: I understand that.
MR. KORESH: My people are not the, the, the
great self-sufficient people of the world.
HENRY: That's right.
MR. KORESH: But they are going to be
sanctified by God's word and God's word only, not by
me. V
HENRY: Okay, but the --
MR. KORESH: Now ~-
HENRY: -- but the thing is, she is in a
quandary because she loves her children so much and she
doesn't -- but at the same time she doesn't want, you
know, to feel like she's turning back her -- you know,
that she's turning her back on you and, and the word of
God. She needs to have a little bit of reassurance
because in the end if everybody's going to come out
anyway she's only leading the way, you know, and will,
and will in essence begin to pave the way for you.
MR. KORESH: Like the two older ladies?
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HENRY: Pardon me? Yes.
MR. KORESH:
HENRY: Yes,
MR. KORESH:
through the media that
HENRY: Wait
MR. KORESH:
HENRY: Wait
MR. KORESH:
but two -- now, that is really
HENRY: Listen to me
me for a second. If they were
arrested, they should not haveLike the two older ladies?
now, the --
Of which you boastfully admitted
you arrested?
a second. Wait a second.
Now --
a second.
-- the younger girls don't mind,
for a second, listen to
arrested, if they were
been arrested and the
charges have been dropped against them, okay? I don't
know who initiated that process, I certainly had
nothing to with that, but I can guarantee you that
those,
have. You know, there
you're saying.
MR. KORESH:
go out --
HENRY: Yes?
MR. KORESH:
other, you know, olderthat those charges have been dropped. They
's - it - I agree with what
One of the reasons why they did
-- and some of those, those
women is, I said, look, you're
not a part of this, you know, you're not in the making
of this. You know, not everything that's done here is,
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is, is really known or shared amongst everybody.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: I mean1you know, there are
different levels of - A
X HENRY: Exactly.
MR. KORESH: - learning and different levels
of study.
HENRY: Exactly, as, as it should be, and,
and when you reach a certain age, you know, like we --
you and I talked about yesterday, at a certain age you
don't -- just like your body, you wouldn't be -- they
wouldn't be able to run five miles maybe or whatever,
who knows? You're right, there are certain levels of
responsibility, there are certain levels of, of, of
learning, there are different certain levels that -
-- of confidence, of trust, of, of different things,
and that's fine. But I don't know whether you believe
me or not, but I sincerely and truly tell you that
those charges have been dropped. All of these people
-- I know you say that they're not your followers,
okay?
MR. KORESH: Well, they follow my God.
HENRY: Exactly. And they look at you for
approval, guidance and they need to feel like if
they're doing something that they have not only -- they
want your permission and they want you to acknowledge
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that it's okay. You know --
MR. KORESH: I can only do what I am told.
HENRY: Okay, thatS'fine. If --
MR. KORBSH: You know, God is greater than
J
all of us --
HENRY: Sure.
MR. KORESH: - even me.
HENRY: Exactly, and --
MR. KORESH: Have you ever heard of the
scripture, "My father is greater than I"?
HENRY:
you and they want
a, a - some sort
okay for you, you
fact, proceed.Sure, sure. You know, they respect
to feel that if they're taking
of action that you concur, that it's
know, that they can as a matter of
MR. KORESH: And I told them when they're
ready to go they are ready to go, I can - they can go
when they want.
HENRY: Okay, and
that --I feel that, you know,
MR. KORESH: And that's been my program ever
since day one.
HENRY: Yeah. To
figure, you know, you are a
they're your children. You
encourage them so that theythem you are a parent
leader, they act as though
need, you know, to
feel good about taking
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O 40
whatever action they feel that they need to.
MR. KORESH: Sounds kind of strange a 33-
year-old man could have that kind authority over such
old people doesn't it? '
" HENRY: That's the way that it is. Reality
is reality. You have --
MR. KORESH: You don't think 33 has any
significance do you? ~
HENRY: Well, there you go. There you go.
There you go. And, and I think as I told you, you
know, that there are lots of things that, that, that
are happening. You have been chosen and, you know,
when you come out you will have the perfect --
MR. KORESH: Well --
HENRY: -- opportunity --
MR. KORESH: -- if I have been chosen,
Henry --
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: -- if you believe what you're
saying, then are you ready to obey me?
HENRY: I do not follow you, you know, I
follow God, okay?
MR. KORESH: Wait a minute, wait a minute.
He that believeth on God must believe on me --
HENRY: Well --
MR. KORESH: -- because God has given one
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record of his son --
HENRY: See --
MR. KORESH: -- andin the seals --
HENRY: Okay. 'Listen for a second now,
listen for a second, okay?
MR. KORESH: See now, there now you're
talking like a Pharisee aren't you?
HENRY: Well, maybe am and maybe I'm not.
MR. KORESH: God is our father.
HENRY: Maybe I am and maybe I'm not, okay?
You have, you have great knowledge about the teachings
of the Bible, I am not. As --
MR. KORESH: Well, have you ever studied it
for yourself?
" HENRY: I can't say that I have spent nearly
enough time as, you know, as I should or as you have.
That doesn't mean that I don't believe in God, I
believe in God, okay? You are -- and can quote the
Bible and that's, and that's great, and I think a lot
of people have that capability and facility based upon
a lot of study and dedication. And I think that --
MR. KORESH: Well then, why doesn't the --
HENRY: -- that's great.
MR. KORESH: Why don't these students who've
dedicated their lives to study, why don't they get on
the news and on the radio and show the world these
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seals?
HENRY: Well, I think that the -- YOU KDQWI
you know, perhaps you've beenichosen to do that and I
think that that's fine. _
' MR. KORESH: But, but no one can do --
HENRY: An interpretation --
MR. KORESH: -- that, but no one can do that
but the Lamb. .
HENRY: Well, okay, fine, but - and, and
then you need to do that.
MR. KORESH: So, what did the wicked, what
did the wicked do to the Lamb? What did they do to the
Lamb? Do you know?
HENRY: Well, you know, if you're going
to -- if, if you want me to say what I think you want
me to say, they slay the Lamb.
MR. KORESH: Why? Because they don't believe
in the doctrine or what?
HENRY: Because they can't see.
MR. KORESH: And how come they can't see?
HENRY: Because they don't know the truth.
MR. KORESH: Christ says, "Why do you not
understand my speech, why do you not hear my doctrine?
Because you are of your father the devil and the lust
of your father you will do, for he was a murderer from
the beginning and abode not in the truth."
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I O 4:
HENRY: See, but I don't think that it's --
that, that the most important thing, I think it's, I
think it's excellent that youfknow and it's remarkable
that you know the seven-seals. I don't
and this is just me being a simple, you
that I am, that, that, that if you know
what you believe in that you don't havethink, however,
know, person
for example
to be able to,
to quote from a Bible, you know, or even know the seven
seals.
Mm. KORESH: Well, you don't believe in the
Bible.
HENRY: I believe in it, and I believe --
MR. KORESH: No, you can't believe in what
you don't
that.understand. Now, let's be more logical than
HENRY: Okay. Okay. Listen to this.
MR. KORESH: You can't believe in --
HENRY: The Jesus --
MR. KORESH: -- you can't believe in
chocolate ice cream if you don't eat the stuff.
HENRY: Okay. If, if Jesus Christ said, "I
am the resurrection and the life -- --
rm. xonnsm Right .
HENRY: - " - and he who believes in me
will never die."
MR. KORESH: Right.
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EEO U
HENRY: Do you need to know any more than
that? -
MR. KORESH: Oh, yes, you need to know the
rest of it. '
HENRY: Well --
MR. KORESH: What else did he say?
HENRY: -- see, that, that, that is the
promise that he has made to Christians.
MR. KORESH: He said, "He that believeth on
me as the scripture saith, as the scripture saith,
shall not come into condemnation." You see? If you
believe not Moses and the prophets --
» HENRY: Well see --
MR. KORESH: -- although one rose from the
dead, you will not believe.
HENRY: See but - and, and when we talk
about some of these things we're talking about
interpretation and interpretation is the key, see?
And, and, and --
MR. KORESH: Well, it's simple truths.
HENRY: Exactly, and that --
MR. KORESH: when he says, "My doctrine is
not my own," where do you get his doctrine from? Do
you get it from man or do you get it from God?
HENRY: You get it from God.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, well God spoke to Isaiah
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no 0 45
Jeremiah, Ezekiel, indiscernible!, Obadiah, Malachi,
how did he know? Because Christ quoted from them
didn't he? ;@
HENRY: D0 -- E
' MR. KORESH: So that leaves the world without
excuse.
HENRY: Do you believe that only the people
that know everything about the Bible will be saved?
MR. KORESH: In the last days, at the time of
which man shall be enjoying the greatest blessings ever
given to mankind, there will emerge in a mist of dark
confusion a light, a standard: seven seals. There will
be a banner that will be flown, a Star of David, with a
serpent. Christ is a deceiver, Christ deceived the
ungodly by showing them the truth,
contrary to their own thoughts and
God will give to the world a truth
darkness so that their minds mightby coming away
their own minds.
to enlighten their
be opened to the
purpose that God is performing that they may be without
excuse. If the 45th Psalm is not the same as the first
seal, then the truth of Revelation 19 cannot apply. If
John has spoken amiss by saying that this must be
hereafter, then the purposes of judging men by truth
will be vain. Then the only purpose remaining to judge
men is the law, and I do not think that you nor any of
yours or those connected with you can stand next to the
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law of God. Ten Commandments is sufficient evidence to
prove you are worthy of the damnation God has before
stated shall come upon those uho deny Christ. You're
not denying me, you're denying the word of God. I'm
not making claim to myself; I'm trying to show you from
God's word a truth that says only the Lamb can reveal.
As far as me, you know, hey, just -- as long as you
just call me David or whatever - _
HENRY: Well, I --
MR. KORESH: - I don't expect any respect
from men --
Tape ends abruptly.!
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U O
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #36
3/4/93
O Q 2
2 Tape began in middle of sentence.!
HENRY: I would like to see that happen now.
DAVID: Well, as soon as I get the message
from the headquarters I'll be out.
HENRY: I hope the message of the
headquarters comes ~-
DAVID: Soon.
HENRY: Now.
DAVID: Well, it's not now. Okey-doke?
HENRY: It could be now though, right? I
mean if, if it comes now, you're not going to wait?
DAVID: Well, yeah, if it came now I would
not wait.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: See, I please my Father, okay, that's
all I can do.
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: You see, it's his law. He has
written a manuscript, and I do not have the power, even
in heaven, to go above his word. I am subject to the
Father. You read the Hebrews, that when the Father
gives all things to Christ, and the son is subject to
the Father?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: I cannot go beyond the commandment of
the bounds that God has given me in the fields.
HENRY: Um-
DAVID: I C
that I have jurisdict
HENRY: Um-
» DAVID : My
upon my giving of
given me to give.
HENRY: And
DAVID: If
bring my humanity up3
hum.
annot stand above my God and state
ion above his own word.
hum.
marriage of salvation is based
and upholding the doctrine he has
it's important --
I, if I step on the outsides, if I
to front above the divinity of
God's word, then, then I'm no more different than
anybody else in the world. I'm a transgressor
Adam. Just because the spirit of truth can be
within my perceptions, into my veins, does not
that my humanity is any different than anybodylike
run
mean
else's.
HENRY: There you go.
DAVID: On
hunger,
HENRY: Do
DAVID: --
you and anybody else
HENRY: DO
DAVID: No.
HENRY: No?
DAVID: NO,the contrary, I have fear, I have
I have anxiety, I have tears, I have stress, I
you have - '
all, all the human properties that
has.
you have confusion?
I do not.
I 0 4
HENRY: You never have confusion?
DAVID: I am wondering how,
refuse to see. That's one thing that
that's not in regards to the position
HENRY: No, I'm not talkingsometimes men,
I have. But
that I stand on.
about with, with
respect to that, I'm just saying, do you ever have
confusion?
DAVID: With regards to what decision or
position I make? No. Look, let me tell you what
confusion is. In the days of Noah, God destroyed the
whole world. Why? Because of confusion. The world
had gotten to the point to where they
acknowledge God. But there was pain,
the world. Men were taking liberties
realm, above the liberties of others.did not
sorrow, hurt in
of the natural
Men were
killing, stealing, flaunting their temporal power and
their temporal possessions above others. Judging one's
worth and the value of the things he possessed. The
sons of God, which referred to the lineage of Seth,
they were kept around the territories of Eden, had
finally populated in the sons of men, which refer to
the descendants of Cain, were separated for the coveted
promises of God, had populated, into the
time, sensuality and evil, arrogancy and
matured. Well, finally, it repented God
made men. In other words, God was sorrycourse of
pride, it had
that he had
that man in
D O 5
his decision making and his liberties of being free
moral agents had so inspired man to choose the course
of evil more than good. So, God, in his last stance
from mercy, gave into one man, Noah, a message, and the
message was, is that he was to prepare an ark for that
the God of creation, the God of heaven, who had created
men to be happy and wholly, to walk in a law of
perception and sensibility, that he was going to
destroy them unless they made a protest against sin by
getting into this ark. Now, many of the people that
first started building the ark, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: They stopped, and through the process
of time they went ahead and left off the work and
joined the ranks of the world. Okay, now, what
happened was is that finally the days came where the
only ones left remaining to finish the last portion of
the ark was just Noah and his immediate family.
Awesome, unbelievable, right? Well, finally the day
came when spirit of inspiration brought the animals
into the ark and the world was amazed at such
cooperation amongst the beast, --
HENRY: Yes.
DAVID: - and some were inspired and they
had an impulse that they, too, should follow.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
5 0 6I DAVID: But, again there was the pressure
from the mother, the father, the sister, the brother,
the boyfriend, the girlfriend, so as it came to pass,
as in the days of Noah, finally Noah and his family
wentinto the ark and a bright light is sent in from
heaven and shut the door of that ark. I give you, the
habitant's of the were world startled. But again, it
was explained away by scientists, by the knowledge of
the earth, by the proud, by the arrogant, and what
startled them, finally what took place was, the
startlement was subsided because day one passed, day
two passed, day three past, day four passed, and the
fears of the people went away. Just like in the days
of Jericho. The Israeli army's marched seven times
around Jericho, didn't they?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: And each day they marched, the fears
of the people inside became less and less. Now, the
point is this, on the seventh day the only thing that
God can use to communicate with that world was that the
heavens changed, the condition of the atmosphere grew
and there were lightnings, thunderings and voices.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: But the only voice that the
antediluvian world heard was the terror in witnessing
waters fall from the skies, and these waters lasted in
9 0 7
continual outpour for forty days and forty nights,
drenching the inhabitants of the world and they cried
and they screamed and they begged and they prayed to
God, but they had rejected to stand on the side of
truth. So, reluctantly, God was so hurt because so
many were lost in that one measure of judgement. So,
when the ark finally rested on Ararat, and the waters
subsided, the day came for Noah to be released from his
capsule of security --
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: and they came forth from the ark
and God commanded the family of Noah to look into the
heaven's, and that although they were terrified and
they, they were learning of a new God, they had never
seen a God like this before.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: They had never realized that God, who
was so tender and merciful in creating such a beautiful
Eden and a beautiful world, could in the same hand turn
and desolate all the world. But still, God placed a
beautiful sign in heaven. The most beautiful rainbow
and the most beautiful sky, and God made a covenant
saying with Noah and his family, I will never again
destroy the world with a flood. Never again, and when
now you look into the heavens to see a cloud pass over
the earth, you may look up and know my covenant and me
Q 0 8
with all living creatures that I will never again bring
a flood and destroy all flesh from off the earth.
Well, that was their - but hey, the evidence was
obvious.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: The world was desolated. It took a
while for the grass to grow and the trees to re-emerge.
Noah and the family had to eat carcasses, they had to
eat animals, you know, they had to survive with the
moss and things that was growing on the earth. But
none the less, man began to multiply again and the
world came back and reflourished in newness of life.
The grass grew, the trees grew, the world began to look
beautiful again, and, again, man began to consider and
wonder, they began to see clouds, they began to wonder
if God's promise was for sure.
So man devised a plan that just in case God was
not really going to hold to his word, they would
combine together, utilize all mankind, because there
was power in numbers. Remember man's way of thinking?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: And they did not want to be scattered
across the earth, they wanted to stay together, combine
together, use their minds together, and they began to,
to build a city, and in the city the most greatest
structure that's ever been known. Now, you know the
at - 9
pyramids are big, --
HENRY: Yeah.
DAVID: You know that there are certain
sepulchers of ancient times that are big, but the Tower
of Babel was something that if you could have
witnessed, ah massive, and they worked in the strength
of the early fathers, and they worked in the strength
of the early designs of God and they began to build
this tower and it was taller than any skyscraper you
have today.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Based upon totally different
principles of structural value that you even know of
today. But none the less, but God is heaven and that
sun, and that one that's brought that sun forth, passed
over the face of the earth and said behold, see what
man does? Let us go down there for and confound their
languages. For, see, for we do not confound our
languages, there will be nothing, that will be
impossible for man to do because man is made of the
image of God. So, God had to put his finger forth and
God changed their languages where they couldn't
communicate --
HENRY: Exactly.
DAVID: - and God scattered them to
different parts of the world and named for those who
1 - 10
still chose to remain and work on the ark, God's --
came up on that city and God shook the earth and
divided the land masses and put them over the four
corners of the earth and God shook that tower down, and
if you was to go to that place right now you'd see a
small, little mountainous range, and. hey,
geographically, if you really searched underneath its
foundation, it's not just a natural mountain range.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: You know, present archeology has
uncovered this. They always wondered where this great
tower was and they never realized that there was a,
appeared to be a natural course of a little range there
in it, it turns out to be the remnants of that tower.
Now, but here's the key. A God who can take the
earth and break it to pieces like a puzzle, you've got
a globe, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: You know the continents were once
joined together, weren't they?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: Don't you think that same God has the
power to destroy the nations today?
HENRY: Sure.
DAVID: Well no wonder in heaven God sits on
the throne with lightings and thunderings and voices.
Q 9
The same God who had the power to destroy in the days
of Noah, was the same God of which Christ says, as it
was in the days of Noah, it will be in the days of the
son of man. He's referring to himself, as the son of
man,_right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: They'll be eating and drinking,
marrying and giving in marriage, and we'll know not
until the flood comes and takes them all away.
Now, today, that God who sits in heaven on
the sea of glass, that God that has on his throne
lightnings, thunderings and voices, has above his
throne a rainbow. Now, God means what he says, and
those who go contrary to what God has written in his
book are in deep fire. The prophets have told us there
will not be a flood the next time. It'll be with
chariots and it'll be with fire. But let me explain,
the fire that the prophets saw, it's not like the fire
you light with a match. It's not a flamethrower fire
either, but this world is going to witness a celestial
display of armed forces that they've never dreamed of.
I'm the little guy. I need so much tender care.
I need so much, I mean, my poor, weak brain, I'm just a
temporal cult leader out here, in the middle of
nowhere, desolate Waco, Texas, I mean, you got to be
crazy to be in Waco, Texas. What's good in Waco? But
l 012
you know, I'm in big trouble with you people, and
HENRY: Well ~-
DAVID: -- I know that, but you know
something else? what really grieves me is that if this
bible is true, you are in a lot more trouble than me
and I would do anything, anything in this whole world.
I'd make any sacrifice to keep the event that you know
not about, for lack of your knowledge, to come upon you
or anybody in the world else like you.
You know, let's keep negotiating and let's keep
listening to this fool and let's keep understanding
that whereas you give us time, and I thank
very much, for my sake and for yours, that
only allowing my God to judge you, because
you know, hey, when a person loses eternal
forever.
HENRY: That's right. gyou so very,
you're not
it's a very,
life, it's
DAVID: Now, think how precious that is.
Now, it's also allowing these people that have chosen
the doctrine that I have presented, they see your arms,
they see your might, they see the definite
against their humanity.
HENRY: Uhhuh.threat
DAVID: And they also realize that for their
faith, be subjected to you, they will have
forfeited their rights of their humanity.also
92 ,G I V '3
i HENRY: Well --
DAVID: But, what I am saying is, that there
is necessity for time to be given for, especially these
women, to stop and judge in their hearts in regards to
how they perceive the giving up of their children.
HENRY: But, one of the things though, is, I
get the impression, when I speak to some of these
people, and to include Steve, that they cannot act or
make any decision without your specific instructions.
DAVID: That is not true.
HENRY: I understand, I understand what
you're saying, but it might --
DAVID: That's why I'm telling the guys
around here to watch out - that's why me and Jim have
been so careful, cause I have to, these are human
beings around here. They have their own mind and
that's why I, you know, I instruct certain of these
guys here not to fire on you all. You know, and I have
to keep telling Jim, I say now Jim, listen, you know,
these people are beings of the, of the clay, they've
got nervous systems, they have a certain way of seeing,
and just as you may have individuals that you train and
teach, right?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: They may still, under a real crisis,
make a mistake, as we saw already, right?
Q 0 14
HENRY: That's right, and I think a lot of
mistakes were made, you know, and --
DAVID: And same as these individuals here.
HENRY: That's right, because, because you
have-arms too. --
DAVID: Exactly.
HENRY: -- that caused a lot of destruction,
you know, on both sides. I don't think it should have
happened, but it happened.
DAVID: Yeah, it should never have happened.
HENRY: Exactly, exactly, and I agree with
you 100%. But I would like to see some of these People
start to come out. I really, I really think it's, it's
good for everybody.
DAVID: Well, what you think is good for you,
what God thinks is good for all of us.
HENRY: Do you think that --
DAVID: Let's, let's humble ourselves just a
moment and let's look up, and let's look in our
scriptures and let's see who is above us all. Let's
really fear God, let's really look at Psalms 45 in the
light of the first seal, and let's really be honest
with God now, because Psalms 45 is basically telling
you what God's going to do with his king.
HENRY: One of the things though, that I
think that we need to agree with, is that nobody is
going to use arms against each92
or 15
other.
DAVID: I'm not preparing to.
HENRY: Okay, well, you know, I
glad of that and I'm glad also'm glad, I'm
that --
" DAVID: But I guarantee you what, if we
didn't have them, you all sure would have come into
here and flared your around, yours around, and busted
me around and I'd never be able to say nothing. Now be
honest with me.
HENRY: Look, I, I can tell you this. I work
for the FBI, okay? I can tell
were there. I can't speak for
for Henry Garcia.
DAVID: Okay, so, so
which always is desired to be,you what I would do if I
anybody else except for,
the, so the oppression,
you know, pacified, you
know, always the, the -- we always have to understand
that the, the ones in charge, the ones given from the
bureaucratic system, the power to exercise judgement
and wisdom in discerning situations and circumstances,
that if it's abused, we have to tolerate it because
it's the best we have. Yes, we know you have all the
media and you have all the insight to cover your butts
on that. We know that. Now, a secondary --
HENRY: Okay, now, let me ask you this, --
DAVID: It may be, it may be factual also,
that such people that commit crimes --
A92 'r92 ' 16
HENRY: Look, I don't, I don't have the facts
because I was not there.
DAVID: Okay, okay.
HENRY: I don't have any idea. I know --
, DAVID: But you guys were involved ahead of
time. You were already informed about the situation a
long time ago.
HENRY: I have -- I knew nothing about
anything. I didn't even, you know, how would I know --
DAVID: Maybe not you --
HENRY: -- what was going on, you know -- I
didn't have any idea about any of this, but, but let me
say this, you - just like you said, it shouldn't have
happened, it shouldn't -- things have happened on
either side, you know, I mean, things happened from
either side, so, I'm not judging you, I'm not judging
them --
DAVID: Well let me, let me take these ATF
agents, and let me, let me get my jury together --
HENRY: I'm sure that what's going to happen
DAVID: -- and, and let me, let me try them
under my law.
HENRY: Well, you know, --
DAVID: Does that sound okay for you? Can,
can the United States of America allow that?
U 17/_ ,.
HENRY: Well, God will judge them --
DAVID: Oh, definitely, God is judging them,
no doubt about it, but --
HENRY: Okay, and the facts will be judged in
the court of law and that's why --
DAVID: Now, wait a minute, whose court of
law? We already know your court of law. We already
know in 1988, that I sat and I was given statements
from a prosecuting attorney such as this, Okay,
Mr. Howe Phonetic!, the night you went out there to
murder George Roden Phonetic!, did you ever stop to
think that what you was doing was wrong, yes or no?
Now, I do need to explain. I -- no, I just want a yes
or a no. You see, that, that is a hanged statement,
and that, you know, that should not even be allowed in
a court of law. But it was in my case.
HENRY: Were you found innocent or guilty?
DAVID: What happened to me was, is that
according to the laws and precepts of the law, when a
jury is chosen, it is required that no member of that
jury is to be associated with either the defense or the
prosecution, right?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: They're to be strangers, aren't they?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: Well, then why was it allowed that
18
one of the black individuals was a close friend of
Mr. Shabaz Phonetic!? Why was that allowed? And why
was it that the jury could not make a decision on my
case? Well, what happened was, after the decisions
weremade and the acquittal of the seven others, we
threw a little party down at our studio. We had a
little music studio down off of 17th Street, and we
invited the jury members to that party.
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Huh?
HENRY: I'm saying uhhuh.
DAVID: Okay. Well, what happened was, some
of the -- well, the man that was in charge of it, they
began to explain, they began to say, now, look, we
don't know why, but there was an individual and another
individual that, which these people did not come to the
party, okay?
HENRY: Uhhuh.
DAVID: It was the two black members. And
that no matter what we reasoned, what we said to them,
they would not admit that you were not guilty, and we
couldn't - we worked on it for hours, we, you know, we
talked to them, they said, but, but Mr. Howe, they
says, you know, - So finally, what we decided to do,
is we decided to agree that we was going to, going to
go ahead and acquit the other seven and they was going
Y 19
to come back in again and vote on you, and then we was
going to make you guilty. And so they agreed with
that. So, we went ahead, and we gave our decisions on
the seven, went back in on you and then we went ahead
and it was a hung jury again.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But they had to do this, they had to,
the people that heard the evidence on both sides, after
the second they had decided what was taken place here,
you know, originally, -- Well, you'd know, you should
know at this time about the speculations of Vic Fazell
Phonetic! and his dealings with the, you know, you
know, Waco is known for its methamphetamine, you know,
that don't you?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay, and it's drugs?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: I mean, you know, it's such a nice
place around here and everything. Well, we came back
on the property in 1988, that's what they were in the
process of doing. Now, the sherriff's department knew
about that. They knew completely about that.
Especially with individuals such as Donny Joe Harvey,
Roy Borwells phonetic!, you know, George Roden, you
know. The thing of it was is that individuals who'd
been saying that George was into the experimentation of
I-"92L
4] 9 2° J ,
a little coke here and there, you know, all hearsay
stuff, but of course, the purposes of this is that when
he started digging up the cemetery, you know, the
cemetery, the question was, what is this man doing?
Where is he coming from? Well, what did I do? I
simply went to the sherriff's department, and I
explained to, you know, the sherriff, Dickerson, who's
now, you know, he has Parkinson's Disease or something,
off the force, I explained to him the situation and I
asked that he would go out to Mt. Carmel and look into
this and deal with it. It's called corpse abuse.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: He wouldn't do nothing. Kept telling
me we had to have evidence. Well everybody could see
him out there anytime, digging in the cemetery with a,
with a John Deere 1010 tractor.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay, well, what happened was, is it
was really kind of funny. So then, I'm down in
Palestine where we had to purchase a property down
there because of all the people that originally were,
had bequeathments and second tie rights for the
property here, we had to re-locate them because George
had, had ran them all off with a semi-automatic Uzi.
When his mother, who was the director at that time,
tried to talk to the people to give her time to work
92 .1 21with gm, they, in Christian faith, you know, went
ahead and didn't enact a restraining order against him,
cause he had a restraining order against him since
1978, which, in allowing him to come back on the
property, that violated the rights to enforce the
restraining order.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: So he wasn't going to move. The
people couldn't move back, and the law was not going to
enforce it. Okay, so, we had, we had a waiting period
there. Then all of a sudden this George guy calls me
up and tells me that he's got this lady that was buried
twenty, some twenty years ago, back in '88, and, you
know, challenged me to a duel to resurrection. And I
told him, I says, "George, not today." You know,
George, like a lot of people, didn't understand where I
was coming from.
George became upset when I first came here in
1981, because this little group of people were known
for many years to be people who have ever accepted
light as it unfolds. Okay, so naturally when God's
going to do work, he's going to choose people and have
ears to hear and eyes to see, right?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: So I began to come here and these
people were considered to be one of the top bible
V.X1 Q 22
people in the whole world. I mean, that's, that's all
they've done ever since the '30s, is they've studied
the prophecies.
Well, when I came, all of a sudden the mysteries
unfolded. Well, this outraged George. George has this
idea that he's supposed to be the heir of this property
because his mother and father was the original
originator of this association.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: Well, things didn't work out so he
took the situation by force. Dickerson told us that if
we would get pictures of the casket, then he would come
out here and deal with the situation.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: I hired a guy that was allowed to
come back and forth, his name was Sam Jones, you know,
who started a connection with George, and I hired him
and I gave him a little camera, a little Instamatic.
He came and he walked into the church. He took all
these pictures from all angles. So we had the pictures
developed, went back to the sherriff's department, and
did they move on it? No. You know what his reply to
me was?
HENRY: What?
DAVID: He looked through them, he looked
kind of worried. He says, well, I don't know that
;*92
i '24
and I went to Kmart and I bought, you know, shot guns
and stuff like that and the whole plan revolved around
diversion. Diversion. We got eight guys together.
Some came up by the, by the lake. The others were out
by the dump ground out here, where some of your guys
are at right now. You know, it's in the back here.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And me and Dave and a guy named Mark,
- a van drove by, it was like 2 or 3 in the morning,
real slow, we hopped out, we crawled across the road
and crawled all the way over to the church, which is
the front and foremost building, and we, you know, we
watched and everything and, and Mark went inside to
take the pictures.
Well, what happened was is that as we was standing
there, or actually staying a good odd distance. There
used to be an old trailer out here between the, where
church building use to be, up towards the front, and to
where the old, old truck trailer is, towards the back
of the property there. You'll see it there on the
right if you're looking towards the front of the
building, in front of the property.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: And there was a trailer, a double-
wide trailer, that was where George lived. I'd say
it's about a 150 yards away from the church. '
0 25
HENRY . Okay .
DAVID: Well, so we're there and all of a
sudden this dog comes walking up. He comes walking up
on the road, he looks over and he sees me and he just
turns around, he just walks real calmly, slowly, all
the way back. when he walked back he went into the
trailer kind of like, and all of a sudden there's
barking everywhere. These dogs are from everywhere.
So George's lights went on and, and where we're looking
for him we saw him get up and look out his big window
there and he was in his t-shirt and in his underwear.
He grabbed this big spotlight and started shining
everywhere. So, Mark came out of the church and says,
you know, the casket's not there.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: The casket's been moved. So the
dog's are hollering and running so, so we commenced to
crawl all the all the way out to the, to the road
there, Double E Ranch Road, and you'll notice where the
two water towers is, between there and our entrance is
that little barn down there, a little tin shed and a
little -- block shed, where some of the agents right
now are at.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: So we crawled on our bellies all the
way down that ditch line, all the way over to that
building and ran way on out in Perry's field to circle
completely around the back of the property, all the way
to the back of the property. So we met with the other
guys and then we went all the way back out towards the
power lines and we all remet at the power lines.
Nothing happened. okay? George wasn't shot at. George
wasn't killed. Nothing happened.
Now we're all down there, and we're saying now,
look at this. He moved the casket. What's going on?
The old people are living in Palestine -- now, now
listen to this.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: They were living in Palestine,
ranging from ages of 40's, well actually 50's, up to 80
something years old, originally they possessed the 13
houses out here, but they were all moved off, and we
had to build little sheds down in Palestine, 8 X 16,
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- all plywood, 2 X 2 framing, just
as a standard housing thing. Most of these people been
in religion for years and they've outlived their kids.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: So anyway, so we're saying, we've got
to find that casket, what are we going to do?
HENRY: Um-hum.
ve 27
DAVID: Well, what took place was we came in
the morning, early in the morning. We slept outside
that night. Early in the morning we re-gathered up
around where the dairy barn is over here, where your
agents are right now. Good locations, I have to admit.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And we, we came up and I said, "This
is what we're going to do. We need to wait until, you
know, everybody leaves, if we can make sure everybody
leaves the property and look around a little bit and,
you know, stay out of sight, and see if George has
dumped this casket somewhere.
HENRY: Uh-huh. '
DAVID: So all the house but the place
looked like trash. The houses, they were had -- they
had had no paint on them for a year and a half, and you
have to paint the houses out here at least once a year
cause the way the humidity is and all that, it's just
the paint cracks off. So, like I said, we were armed,
that's true. But why we were armed, well, that was
already, that was clearly made known, even after the
so-called gun battle. The gun battle took place with
lots of rounds being fired right into the ground.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: I mean there was no, there was no
bullet holes in no houses, no bullet holes in no cars,
l 28 _ _r
no bullet holes nowhere but in one tree.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Now, you see, the people, the people
don't -- now there's bullet holes everywhere, it's
different now.
HENRY: Yes, absolutely.
DAVID: But here's the deal. The deal was,
is that, you know, we started up, and I went into the
first house on the far side of the property, man, it
was trashy. It had trash in there, it had goat crap in
there, it was like, you know, old beds, like, someone
had been in there doing some wrong things, you know,
you know how drug addicts do.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: And, you know, and the second house,
no one's there, and the third - now, we waited. This
took about, about, till about eleven, or so, o'clock,
cause we had a, a zoom scope, and, and we was, we was
doing our little ATF work then ourselves, okay? You
understand?
~ HENRY: Laughs!
DAVID: So, you know, we were being very
cautious and everything, and so, we finally came up to
some houses, and we looked in one house and, you know,
it was like, all these houses were trash and which we
got all the pictures to show that. And pornography
M ?
3 Q 2.
everywhere. I mean, Playboy, Penthouse, I don't know,
just, everything. Anyway, just a lot filthy stuff.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: And so we came to one house and we
looked, we looked in the door there and there was this
shotgun there, and we picked up a couple of weapons.
It was just like laying close to the doors, you know?
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And they were confiscated along with
our weapons too, and they were saying they were ours,
but they really weren't. So what happened was, we
finally came up to this one house, we're behind this
house and like, two guys at a time, right?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: And two guys, like, move up behind
each house 'cause our, our plan is that if anything
happens, we want to divert, we want to get out of
there.
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: So finally we're there and all of a
sudden, lo and behold, this girl comes out of this
house and she's, she's, you know, she's walking in
these real short shorts, I've never seen them before,
and you know --
HENRY: Wait hold it, what?
DAVID: Short shorts.
KLQ/, so
DAVID: Which, you know, this religion, weHENRY: Oh, okay.
don't do that.
HENRY: Um-hum.
* DAVID: Of course, it was not a religion when
George Roden was occupying the place.
HENRY: Um~hum.
DAVID: And I need to tell you also, his
mother had passed away too, while he was there.
HENRY: Um-hum. "
DAVID: And so what happened was, is she had
her halter top off and she came around and she walked
right by two of those guys and, you know, she came by
and all that and, you know, she sees us there and
everything and we had bought some K-mart, you know,
those deer hunting suits?
HENRY: Oh, yeah.
DAVID: So she comes around and she says,
what, and I says, I says, come here. You know. She
says, what are you? Are you all policemen or what?
And I says, look. I says George Roden's got a casket,
out here right? And she goes, yeah. You know, and I
says, we're here to, to find out where this casket is.
She goes, I don't know where they put it. You know?
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: So right there we knew, okay? So
then this, this other girl comes out and she's, she
sees two guys there and, you know, like, they're face
to face, and she goes, who in the hell are you?
hENRY: Um-hum.
X DAVID: You know, and this guy, he goes,
we're here to, to try to find the casket that George
Roden's been digging out. And she curses him out, steps
on out the door, gets to her little car out there, you
know, and drives up to the trailer --
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: -- where George is residing. We're
going, oh no, what's going on now, right?
HENRY: Umhum.
DAVID: So this girl, you know, she's
standing there by us, and this is even her own
testimony, you know? She says, you know, I said, I
said, look, you know, you need to be going out of here,
you know, we may have some trouble, or something like
that. And she goes, no, I'll stay here. You know.
And she goes, she said something like she had worked at
the police department before or something like that.
So we're there and all of a sudden this George comes
walking down from the trailer, walking down the road,
and he's got, you know, his t-shirt, and he's got his
pants and he's got his black cowboy hat on and he's got
this Uzi, side-strapped to his right shoulder.
Q Q 32
HENRY: Uh-huh. 92
DAVID: I mean, just as strutting and as
proud as can be, you know. So
…[truncated]