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UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
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* Re Chicago airtel to Bureau dated 3/27/64}, captioned I
I are enclosed ior the New York Ofiice.I O ' I/II. _ I
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L Q JO
IR? KUPCIIIT SHOT, 8&TUBDAY, IABC8 38-29, 1964
IUPCIIET:
KUPCIHET2
IJLBOLH X:
IUPCIKET:
IALCOLI I
. .Tonight on our panel ee have IAIDOLI X,
the lumber 2 nan in the Black Iuelins and
the aost controversial ligure in the nation
today; VANCE PACKARD, Journalist: Senator
PAUL DOUGLAS; IILLIAI IDBIBT I180, Jr.,
Attorney and prominent Chicago civic leader;
and RICHARD III, Ioveliet. '
IALCOLI, hoe do you ieel about this civil
rights legislation? You've taken a strong
and elegant stand on aany oi the issues
today Ihen you see a nan like Senator DOUGLAS
eho is bending every eiiort aa are aany
many citizens oi this country oi both black
and shite. Yould you feel that this cause
has somewhat weakened your overall charge
against the ehite race?
loll, the talk about civil rights legislation
and bringing civil rights legislation into
existence are two different things. I eaa
in Ianbington, I think it Ian Thureday,
I listened to tho debate that eaa taking
place and for a debate to take place in
1964 in a country that'e supposed to be tor
treedon and justice and equality tor all
oi its citizens the debate in itael! doesn't
look too good tor Uncle Baa. It ahouldn't
even exist. There ehouldn't be any
preliminary battle. The freedom ahould
already be a living thing for everybody in
the country especially ehen Uncle Baa today
is referring to hiaaeli as the leader oi the
tree world. It Just doesn't exiet.
Iell so know that there is a great evil.
inaudible! You belong to an organization
oocal1ed the Black Iueliaa, the Xelaa Iaith,
that condeanIPF§£tica11y all shite people.
l wouldn't eay, you can't use the eord condean,
let's lay that an analyeia inaudible!
education that eaiste in America and that
the analysis in iteeli ia condemnation nae
instead of the ehitee ae you any referring to
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Senator DOUGLAS
IALCOLI X:,¢==..5u _II '. , Iii? ,,-
na in a language that sakes it look lite
we're condemning then, shat they should do
is remove these inJustices. But, insteadoi reoving the injustices they hide behind
labels that they attempt to put on us.
The point I want to get at is that there are
so lsny people sorting tor the civil rightslegislation sho are trying to bring someJustice into this probles and yet the
so-called Black Iuslia Iaith condemns,unless you got word because KLIJAI IUIAIIAD,the Ionorahle BLIJAB IUIAIMAD, is on record
as saying that all ehitee are devils. Yet
sany aany people like Senator PAUL DOUGLAS
who reflects his views and shoes viess
mlwtldl ll I
Iell let so say right oi! that as a shite nan
I do not tool it proper to condean Iegroea
for their ioolings, and I do not feel itproper to condemn Ir. lALCOLl X tor the say he
iesls. I want to sake that very clear. I
don't think we have any right to condeen his.
Ie only hope that some of us can desonstrate
by our actions Just hos, I'll put it that say
Iithout going into fancy language, se hope
that Ie can demonstrate by our actions that
we're sincere that's all. _-
This is a good point that he has lads because
in the Koran, which is the Bible oi Islas it
instructs the Iuslis to judge a nan by his
conscience behavior, by his intention andyou sill find that one is within one'sright ehen one judges another person by his
conscience behavior, by his intention and
then on the other hand-I don't think you can
justifiably get excited over the tendency on
the part oi Negroes in this country today tobe very such disillusioned and disappointedand euspicios of a lot oi talk when no action
iolloss that talk.
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IUPCIIIT:
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The point I want to emphasize or etill get atis the tact that there are many pillione oiwhite people I would say who are as concernedabout this problem as you are and who areprobably doing acre to reach an equitablesolution and I think that the Black Muslimstailed to recognize that and give credit where
the credit ie due. G~~.. E?341,;
Still I don't think that the burden ie on
the luelinl. . '.--...'
*§fat
I think it ie because oi the breech they arebringing about by calling all white people
devils. .&'3
Io I don't think that you should accuse Iuslinsoi bringing about a breach especially since Iwas in the Senate Thursday and listened toSenator DIRKSEI I think it nae, tron thin Stateright here who cane out very violently againstthe civil rights legislation and so now he isdoing more to bring about a breach than I am.
1': Just telling you the injustice thatexists and 1': pointing out the ones who areresponsible for this injustice. I thinkthat it's only iair that when your houee is onfire and soneone comes and tells you that it'son iire that you don't accuse his oi setting it
011 £ir.e - I
Ii you point out individuals eplendid, but touse a brush and tar everybody by saying allwhite people are devils then I think theBlack Iuslina are doing a dieeervice to the
entire community. _
Ir. KUPCIIITI
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Ir. 3, you can call ne.lr. I.
All right, 31¢
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IIIG:-92< 0'92
Ihat the Honorable ELIJAB BUHAIAD
has done is actually analyzed the problem
in such a ray to make whites an eell ae
blacks see that no matter what poeition a
black nan in this country reaches,intellectually, professionally or othereiee,
he still in hampered by the color oi hie
skin. ?or example, RALPH BUNCH, when he
vent to Atlanta, Georgia, eae aegregated
by none hotel owners. Another example,Congressman D1668 oi Detroit, Iichigan, eae
in a house that eae boobed in lieeieeippi.
I'll say thie,thatno hatter hoe high a
Iegro in this country rieee he ie still
held and checked by the color or hie akin,
collectively he ie
Just an our people
no natter what our
ability is I think
victim should makeone oi the victine.
are victims collectively
intellectual or professional
that our being a collective
Ihitee nee that collectively
their guilty. It rests upon the to solvethis problem. It doesn't rest upon me to
defend them.
At the rink oi interfering in a private tight
I think that both oi you are overeieplitying
the problem by this insistence oi dividingthe whole world, or at leaet the United Statee,into white and black. It ien't eo nuch that I
particularly ohJect to your calling American
Iegroes black eventhough very tee oi thee are
and 1 know very tee white people, it any, ae
a aatter of tact the whitest people I know are
Negroes but that's another inaudible!.
I011 both Iaye IALCOLI» In fact I018 01
the hlackest ones I knee are white. I think
that it you liaited ue aa I gueae you eere
doing this problen oi assignment oi guilt
which IALCOL8 is doing and your problen oitrying to point out that everybody isn't guilty
!t'e eort of eel!-defeating, ien't it?
Certainly Negroes didn't enslave theneelveethough there were African and Arabic elave
traders who sold then to he brought to the
United States and other places, eo that it youstart trying to trace this latter oi guilt in
terns of skin color I think you do violence
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Senator DOUGLAS
IUPCIIIT:.. ajfl .92 .-
to history, to anthropology, to psychologyand to everything olso. ii on tho other hand,and 1 don't understand IALOOLI to be sayingdifferently, it your saying that there aremany people in the United States who ethnically.Ihatever that means, are olaeoiiied as shite
who don't approve oi the discriminationand the segregation against people becauseof their color then obviously your right.Then IAIDODI is also right that the moretact that they don't approve oi it doesn't
make it go aeay.
Iobody said it does and nest oi us recognisethe serious problem we have. But the tact that
I'm trying to make lo that there are so manypeople trying to help in this cause, whereasthe Black Iuslins snoop everybody aside andsay all white aen are devils. That's the one
thing that I object to.
In defense of the Huslims I think ii the press
would stop using the adjective black, because
there are a ion white Ius1ims........
In this country? Iembors oi this ease organization?
loll I don't know about being members oi the
organization oi which IALCOLI, I guooo your
IOU--Q--one
lm a Iuslim, I: a member oi the Iation oi
Islam.
That's what I assume. There are you knee atleast as many sects oi Islaa as there are or
Christianity, perhaps more.
lay I interJect_hero?
Pardon ne, may I intorject for Just a moment.Io have to pause here tor a message and we'll
come right back to the Senator.
onsc
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Senator DOUGLAS:
IALCDLI I:,,_. 7.,._,1 .. _ ,~' -. I 1, 5"..:1o1.- . 2 >
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I can undorotand Ir. IUEAIMAD I'o toolingo
about tho whito raoo and about Qhriotianityand nay I nay worl tranhiy that I th1nk"¢ oonooionciouo Chr otiano_havopaWioar oi guilt
but I: oooowhat paallo by tho Iact that Ir.
IALOOLI I and othora hbraco Iuhaanadian and
Ioiaaioa booauao aa Ir§_IIH6 oaid tho worot
oiawo tradoro in iirioa woro tho Arab aiavo
tradoro, tho aoat brutal} oruoi pooplo yoa'"
can poaaibiy iaagino ahd thoy would buy uptho Iogrooo iron Conttli Africa and tako tho
to tho ahipping porto in ooopoundo on tho coast
than tho nations which bayo porpotuatod oiavory
and olawo trado down into nodora,tiaoo havo
boon tho Arabic Iuhaaoadan natioua, nooably
Saudi Arabia whoro I think olawory otili
Ox18tI oo it Ir. IALCOLI X ropudiatoo
Christianity I think ho! going to bo
coopoliod to ropudiato_huhannadioo.
Thoro'a a story in tho Christian Bibio ao I011
an in tho Muslin Biblo about JOSEPH who was
sold into slavory by bio oon brothoro and ho
finally ondod up in tho land oi Igypt and ho
bocano rulor ovor that land ohoro ho had boon
sold aa a aiavo, and ho turnod around and iorgavo
hio brothoro who aold bio into bondago but I
don't know whothor or not ho to ave tho onoowho purchaaod hia. Ibo ao-oa11:E Iogro
in this country: hiatory runo paralloi
with that. 1t'o truo that tho Arabs had a
hand in ooiling IIHI 0! our pooplo into -
alavory and tho irabo havo paid tor it, _
thoy loot their ciwililatioo. it tho tino
alavory was boing carriod on tho arabo had a
traaondouo oulturo in tho troaondoua civilization,
troaondouo oapiro,and tho part that thoy playod
in thin vary criminal act against our pooplo in
Atrica brought about tho downiaii oi tho Arab
Iapiro, tho broahnp oi tho Arab Iapiro. -'
Juot as tho inaudiblol in tho Iuropoan nations
had a hand in tho oolooiaatiou oi itrica aitor
it was woakonod by aiavory and thoy aro paying
tor tho part that thoy playod. Tho only country
ioit on thio oarth oho hao yot to pay tor tho
part that it playod in olavory in inorica.
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IAHOOLI ItWhat about Saudi Arabia, it still has slavery.
Saudi Arabia has aieo paid. lt'e e haotward< Vcountry wherein it used to he part or a vait "V
empire that stretched probably iron the China . yj
Seas to the ahoree oi lest Africa. 'Today i"
it has no voice or etrongth whatsoever. _¢[x_h
IMLCOUI your history and geography are hadiy
confused. Saudi Arabia never wee that ieportant. _ . - . §_.92'_-i"
It was inporant because as part of tho Iueiie 1*
world and as the center or re1igioue.....-.H .
Veil oi course it you describe the cult of the =
Iuslin world as having dwindled down to -
Saudi Arabia then ehat do you do with tho
rest oi the Iuslia states like Yahietae?
Once there was a Iuaiia empire that wee "
aonoiithic, etretohin; ire the inaudible!.
The point 1': making is in those days there
wee one vast empire stretching Iron Asia to
Africa and at that time eece was etiii the
Holy City, it was the V0611 point of Iolae,
it was the place to which all other lueline
desired to Journey and since elavery it hae
broken up into many different iactione and
divisions and they don't have tho power
that they had at that tine. In ey opinion
they have paid the price tor the part that
they had in enalaving our people. _
I hope you forgive no it I aako this ooanont.
Do you take for yourseli the divine power oi
Judgment as to when a nation or race hae
fully paid for its past eiebohawior? 1
Ho.
And punishment according to whether or not
you think it has eutiered adequately.
Ho but I think that aoet observers of world
history agree and I can cite BILLY GRAHAI aségfi the one who is the nest quoted.
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I don't know that we'd all accept BILLY
GHABJI. -.
loll you have to cite eoaeone and all oi ua
aren't going to agree upon any one personwhen we think. Hy point in that BILLY GRAHAIwho in most vocal as a Christian and as a whiteaaerican and who cones iron North Carolina, all
oi that piled into one. .
i .
Iho eent to achool in Iheaton, juat outside
of Chicago.
It is etill Iorth Carolina,11an constantlypointed at that America is standing at herhour of judgment. Not only BILLY GRAHAI but
there are instances cited by politicians,world atateaaen, who are epeaking oi thehandwriting on the wall of the tine that
we're getting into now that you have to
reap as you have sewed.
Don't yo distinguish between rhetoric
and eerioue eocial and political analysis.
Iell the serious social and political analyeia
oi the condition that the world is in today
would enable you and ee or force you and ne
to agree that there must he an explosion
whereas religious people call it Judgment,
eocialogiet call it explosion.
I: not eo eure I would agree that theremoat he an explosion because I don't really
know what you aenn by explosion. In factwhen you were citing BILLY GBAHAI I really
was thinking oi another Christian historian,
a nan by the name oi TOTHBII who enjoys a
little more scholarly reputation in that
iield than Ree. GRABAI eho believes as youeay that the Iestern Iorld in at a period
when its progress upeard or downward ielikely to be determined. He: optimistic
about it because he feels that the people
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Inch oi whnt TDYIHII aaya pointa to tho
downgoing oi Iootorn niliiaation noro oo
than ito npoardnooo. I think 101883! in
noot oi hio oritingo ia pointing toward
tho ooclino oi Iootorn civilisation aoro
oo than to going tarthor in tho ciroctionoi upward. l *
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nooon't your own doctrino which you woro
oipounding a aoaont ago about conociouo
roaponoibility tor conooiouo acto, dooon't
that yory concopt iapooo on all oi no
without rogaro to color and porhapo ovon
without rogard to nationality, to try to
rooolvo thooo prohloa you and I agroo
cortainly oriot.
Cortainly. L 1
All right now if it doll iapoao that obligation
on us than it certainly doosn't holp oolva
tho problem, at loaat on tho basin oi ny
otperienco in both fighting with poople and
nogotiating with than oinco I oarn a living
doing both, to atart oi! by trying to aaddlo
oonoboay also with guilt and trying to iorco
than to confoss to that guilt. That ll if I
rant Sonator DOUGLAS to support a noaouro
that in to got out or tho civil righto aroa
that ono of ay cliontl thinko will bo holpiul
to hi: I don't walk into bio otiico and otart
oi! hy oaying you know at tho laat aoaoion you
wotod ayainat a hill and you cauood havoc and
no on and wo'ro going to try and doioat you tho
noxt tiao around, I otart oi! by oxplaining to
hin tho norito or tho propooal that I havo and
hopo to win hio oupport, ian't that right?
Thin in what tho varioul civil right: grout
havo boon doing tor 100 yoara.
Protty ouccoootully to, havon't thoy IALCOLI?
Bow can you call it ouccooo ohon you have a
dosegrogation docioion that was handed down
by the Suprono Court 10 yoarn ago and you
have oorao aogrogation prohlono in gs i%po%12£%}0n of tho north today than o 5 7 rs
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lot worse, they Just look worse but we had thee10 years ago. As a matter oi tact l wrote anarticle in 1952 which was published, in thosedays I was a University Protease: and writingacadenic Journals, in which l pointed out thatI was satisfied that we had a legal remedy forthe segregated schools oi the South, that we'dwin the aegregated school case involving theSouth but that I neither had a legal renedytor the segregated schools oi the Iorthnor did any oi the educators or educationaladninistratore or anybody elee seen to have anysuggestions how to deal with the probles, sowe had it, we had it in a very sarhet fashion.As a natter oi tact sany oi the probleas that wehave today currently at this nosent are nroductsof the factors which were in existence in 1952 atthe time l was writing the article, the principalone being residential segregation and the second
one being the practice of assigning, becausethey don't have seniority rights, inexperienced
ll.I92 teachers to schools in poor sl
white and Negro, but more Negro
because he rooe are poorer thanneighborhoods
than white
white people8in the Iorth. So you can't say we didn'thave the problems, we had then, but we didn't
have the solution.
Ihat victory did you get? Ihat results?
Iell I can tell you one we got and perhapsthe sajor one. Ie got almost back to l868,alaost but not quite. Ie got back to the pointthat we were in the period issediately followingthe Civil Iar, when it was possible publically todiscuss, criticise and get aiiirwatiwe governmentalaction aieed at preventing racial discriainationin the United States and we loot that, when Iany we now I: not talking about people ourcolor, 1': talking about the whole countrybecause I agree with you that this is anAnerican problen not a Negro problem. Ie lostit when the Hayee-Tilden Deal was sade. low theRepublicans don't like that phrase being used,they wanted it called the Hayes-Tilden Arrangement,like the Southerners wanted it call the Iar Between
the States, but whatever you call it, theBayes-Tilden Deal or the Hayes-Tilden Arrangement,
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the fact is that the Iational Government oi
the United States, or a little group of eilliul
sen to steal a phrase, sold out the victory which
had been eon in the Civil Iar over slavery, racial
discrimination, class discrimination and so on
and we in 1954 got back to, to pick out a year,
but we got back almost 1868. .
IALCOLI aany people are concerned about you
hoe or because there is as impression around,
true or ialse, that you are making a call for
violence. Even your brother, pg1L533T 3 'eho is a Iinister in Iuhaanad's Mosque oi lelas,
has called you a JudusIscariot, a Brutus, a
Benedict Arnold. He says that it is dangerous
and criminal for Negro leaders to stress a
violent approach. Negroes must be taught
hoe to defend themselves under attack. They
must he taught hoe to use rifles and shotguns
quoting you as a nan who is exposing violence
and he also goes on in his attack to say
IALCOLH has always prided himself on being a
great user of people, especially women, and
now he seeks to prevail upon women who
untortunately were eeak and went contrary to
Islam. He goes into apretty bitter attack
on you and he says he didn't eant to air
this in public because he is your blood brother
but he felt that because oi your nee stand
in the Iuslim Mosque you have organized
he thought he had to speak out.
Iy brother was unknown you know until he
allowed himself to be used in this attack
against me, you never heard oi his.
Your right about that but what do you mean
allowed himself to be used?
That's a say for his to make the heat rise
as it to become a part
to attack me and he is
come out here to reply
if he's dumb enough to
script in his hand andof anyone's efforts
my brother and I didn't
to him. I think that
allow someone to put a
tell bin to read it
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I don't think that I: going to hooosoinvolved in any kind oi argument with his
hecauso I: involved noe in a positiveprogram that's designed to elininate thoinjustices, tho political, econosio andsocial injustices that our people areconirontod by, at least to take an activepart to try to oliainato that and shathe's doing would take too such oi sy tine.I night say this that when he says that whatI: doing will lead to violence and bloodshedand loss oi lite he tails to rosoaber that the
Honorable ELIJAB IUHAIIAD in his speoches
has said that Christianity has tailed, thegowornnont has tailed, the Department oiJustice has tailed and it's tine to take
all oi this and put it in the garbage can
and nso tho garbage can to tight back.
Ioll I think it's aore intelligent to uses riile than to nae a garbage can and when hesays that what 1's doing will load to such
loss oi llio still the Honorable ELIJAHIUHAIIAD has pointed out that it'n time for
us to riae up and doiond oursolvea and that
it 10 sillion oi no die there will still he
10 nillion of ns loit around to enjoy the
traits of lreedol, Justice and equality.
I don't think that anything I've over
advocated involves sacrificing 10 millionlives so eventually when ay little brother I
call his, says this he evidently hasn't read
too well shat the Honorable ILIJAH IUHAIIAD
has been teaching use all tho tine.
Let sot ask you something, besides yourattack on the Honorable ILIJAH IUHAIIAD's
consent about 10 slllion nay dis.
1'! not attacklnl his colnlnt.
Your not?
Io, I've never said anything at any time that
in any way attacked the Honorable BLIJABIUBAIAD. I never have and anyone who saysI have will ho aisrepreaonting no. I respect
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his aa hoing tho ono rooponolhlo for havingtaught no ovorythin¢_l hnoo ano_aahing ooéég -é£;-7-_"."--_ " _ ..» _-.. , 4ohntovor I qp,§E%?¢_wh i;g%,3:.v 2 }$¢§_%qhé_ ¢.._, _ . , . _u ' -1.,-: 92 .-fhon you agroo oith thio otatoiont that iimillion can dio and thoro will ho 10 oillloo _4;;1o!t.to onJo1 tho iruito it thoro to a ;g;-, 1T§=
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freedom ior 100 yoars ainco tho so-callodEmancipation Proclamation tho young gonoratlonio gotting to tho point noo ohoro it auto 1itaolt why should it havo to ho drattod and 5cont to dio on ioroign hattloiioldo tor whatit has novor gotton and at tho aano tiao toBupposod to bo paooivo and non-violent andturn tho othor chook to right horo at homo.Thin to not conolotoht. »'_ ' a- ea
lay I lay, I would liho for tho tioo both; _not to diocooo tho oornlity or thio ioouo $'but would liho to discuss tho practicalityit I nay oi this yrograo. I tool vory --votrong about tho morality hot I don't think -tho ohito nan to privilogod to roally raioo
this ohjoctivot
loioro you got into that Sonator I oant to~-and an objoctioa to this praiao or Anorioao -
ohitoa boing oilltog to dio.,>,. .=;y
I havon't praiaod their oillingnoao to dio.I'vo only raisod thio to shoo that to quoationtheir rights to always imply that ohon aNegro spooks in torus oi dying tor troodoothey nako it look liho it'o a oin or liko it'ocriminal, liho it'o advocating violonco, whoroal
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whites have never been reluctant to cousit
bloodshed, to hecoae involved in violence -1,.$y 1- ror anything else when it involve! their oen.jfjobjectives, their own selliah obJectivee@;;-. .
. 92 . -_ . - ' .' ; 3: __
Isn't it naive to assune that l0 aillion }Negroes died in iigbting the climate oi "
race relationships in this country being §_, _proved. I think it would he such eerse. ?it; sAlthocgh presumably 10 nillion whiten di¢.§i@,
die at the cane tine. --- ,y_j._ = g;-J§
certainly and prohahly sore. 32 h ;,.;~; w' - ..'-~ .
So that wouldn't prove the inter-racial-i.
relationships. . _
But still, shenever white people are intelligentenough to realize that although they won't changean unjust situation because it'e ineoral _ .
or illegal or unlawful their intelligencewill force them to take a step in changing it
when it involves their selfish interests and
I think that ii whiten eho are intelligent
sore made to realize that Iegroee have gottenfed up with this dillying-dallying and waveringand compromising to the point where they aceare completely disenchanted with thie aloelegalistic procedure then I think thatehitea it they have a conecience lett will
cospel then to do something to rectify these
unjust conditionl. ---; -;;s
I don't think history shoes that the peoplebecome more intelligent as a reenlt ei .. ;
blbdhldt ' _ _ '
l'n not aaying that tlq'ne going to becoee
more intelligent but I nay that theirintelligence will lake then take a barrel .
out of their house if they realiae that .
there's soae explosive aaterial in that
house that can do just as much harm to then as
it does to the barrel that's going to explode-
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Senator DOBGLLB:
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Senator DOUGLAI:
IALCOLI X:
Senator DOUGLAS; ...;;__a
low al long ae the whiten think the Iegroeeare paeaiwe end peaneiul and willing toooeroniee and wait tor a long tine, Ibelieve eany Iegroee will be in the oontryanother 100 yeare waiting to the Beaetoreto atop iilibulterin thil civil rightllezielatioa tbat'a going to_ooee up neat
KO. I '
You genereliae about abet ieerioan whitenthink and I would eay the aeae thingthat I eey when aonebooy tella ae whatzgizillion or 22 aillion ieerioan Iegroee
attorney IIIG you and I were born in ageneralized olaaeitication even though youare an attorney and anothr Iegro eight bee doctor or e proieeeor, you tall into theaene category with the Iegro in the alley
when it ooeee to dieorieination endaegregation. You and I happeed to be bornin e eituation that hae ite own build ingeneralization and you can't riee above it.
- -
Al I undretand it you iawor atriot
eegregation oi the raceet
Io not eegregation oi the raoee.
I thought you atood lirat for e Iegro area
u t§ mrill 'QIr°"eeeeeeee
That'a eeperation, not eegreiation.segregation ie that which ie torceo on
interiora by euperiore. Separation il
done voluntarily by two equallt Ionnewer call the all white neighborhoodI segregated neighborhood. It'e Juet theIogro ooenunity tbat'a called a eegregated
neighborhood.
All right then you believe in complete
aoparation oiso rec-oe.
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I believe the eaao thing that Aaoricapractices, ooparation and you can'tbring about integration anywhoro in thiocountry hecanae you don't have one place _
yon can nee al an ozaaplo. . 1 -
Thin ie procieoly what Iriao Iiniator YIRIOEBD
oi South Attica is asking tor, separation. _ ..,-. , o.
Io ite net.~ Thin nan in South Airica advocatessegregation; Ho advocates aetting up a certain
area ohore ho could put airicana and continua to
control their oconoy, their politica and their
society. Ihat we're advocating ie the aaao
thing that Ghana wantod, aoparation tron England.
The eaoe thing that Iigoria wanted, eeparationtron Eng1and.' Separation is an involvement
in which you control your oon economy, your
own politice and your own deatiny.
Ihat would you do with the Negroes that
did not want it?
Io'd leave you hero.
You may think that thato funny.
It'e not funny, I: tolling you the truth.
I! you
or themighty
either
quotedtook a roiorondua against the 20 aillion
21 million Aaorican Iogroon you'd iind
little eupport for a proposal to go
to Atrica or as I recall you were
aa having eaid you hopod RLQJAB
IUHAIIAD had Florida OI Caiiiornia in hind.
Attorney IIIO when you said that ii a roiorondua
was taken that wo wouldn't got very nany to
go. During elavory you had the houae Negroand the iiold logro. The house Negro lived Ioll
lo lived with hie ouster.
o he didn't.
toll he lived hotter than tho Iield Negro.
better iood, he ooro better clothes
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with his naster. le called his naster'shouse our house, our food, our this and our
that. If his saster was sick he'd even go
to the hoes and say what's the aatter boss arewe sich.- he identified sore closely with hiseaster than his saster identified with himself.
Ihen the house caught on fire the house Negrowould fight harder to protect his saster's
house than the nsster would hisself.
. -_ _". 1' '_ ., . ,
Then how to do account for the 800 slave1'Q'O1@Iasa-eae . " -
1's casing to that. If soaeone were to cone
to the house Iegro and say lets escape,lets leave, lets separate, he would be
insulted. Ihere cold he go and find a
better hone.
Ihat about the slavery revolts?
The field Iegro who lived out in the Sh&CK:
who were poorer, ate poorer, wore poorerclothing and had anososity in his hearttoward his naster when the saster's house
was on fire, the field Iegro wouldn't try toput it out, he'd hope a wind would cone alongand burn it, and if you cans to a field Negroand said lets escape, lets leave here, letsseparate, he wouldn't ash you where are wegoing. The field Iegro who was the sasselesent would he ready and willing to go toescape at any tine. It was the house Iegrowho didn't want to leave and you have the sanesituation today here in Aserica, house Negroesand field Iegroes. louse Negroes who thinkthey can't live without their master andfield Hegroes who are the lssters, who areready to separate and do something for themselves.
Iell IALOOLI, HATE TURIIR who was the nest
fasous of the organizers of slave revoltsand who was unsuccessful and who was hangedas the price of his lack of success, as JOHN
BHOIHwashangedfor his lack success,
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Io he was a field legro-
Oh no IALQLI he had been taught id readand ' .'*write, he was a practicing Christian and as a latter oi tact he had some small skill as as 'artisan. Bo he didn't satiety your standards jO1 the unskilled 1lbOr.re ..- Q51 Q ;, s .','. ' .--;' '.
he was disguised as a house Ie¢ro.h !uaudihle!w.light here in Aserica today you have some Q 2'=Iegroes who pretend to he house legroea - 'f_and who pretend to he satistied and who are .looked upon as Toss, but who are Just as _>;disIlt1Bi.d . I id 'h°eleeeeee I:_ I
we're not talking about dissatisfaction.I never saw, frankly, a Negro in the UnitedStates in my liie time who was wholly -satisfied with conditions under which "
either he lived or saw other Iegroee live.
I've never seen one. I've seen someapologists who loosely were calledUnie Toms but even they privately weren'tsatisfied and I think one oi the greatdOVO1Opuent8 oi the last 5 years has been, -
today particularly in the deep South, _Iegroes who were regarded as "sate" by thewhite comnunity but desonstrated that they wereas antagonistic and as concerned and diseatistiedas the younger Negroes in the community.So that these classications, these ueepinggeneralizations oi yours, I Just can't buy
without regard to race, creed or color.
A11 the pictures I've seen oi you, I've seenquite a bit, you never ssile and here we weretalking about things I saw you smile and youlook very nice. - '
I'll tell you why. Because the press pridesitseli in being able to project se as a monster.So reporters will cone along and take l0 picturesand the ones that l's sailing in are elisinatedcompletely and the ones where 1': looking like1's about to chew then up are the ones that
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got tho projection across tho country.So when somebody sees so sailing theysay no that can t be his because it -~doesn't look like ho does. * _éa
.' . - _r, ' .' -- v. . __ - _ .But yo do sails? '2 ,* "' - i
All tho tiso. "Although Negroes in thiscountry don't have too such to sailo aboutand at the saso tiso we have boon able tossilo under tho worso force ot oppresion,suppresion, exploitation, discrisinstion,segregation and hypocrisy than any peoplehave over suiiorod in the history oi thoworld. Ie can still sails and laugh and
dance until we got into a position to do
hotter. - .
l don't have any doubt that thoro aro, l'sairaid, publishers as well as editors who useyou IALCOLI as s device hopefully of drivingwedges between groups oi Negroes in theUnited States. Even though you and I mightargue and disagree about tactics, which isreally what we're talking about, wo wouldn'tdisagree and 1's sure Senator DOUGLAS wouldn'tdisagree with you and so about whoro we weretrying to got. I would include IRV KUPCIHBTis that group, I Just don't know Ir. PACKARDand Ir. Kl! woll enough l'd be glad to include
than to, but we sight disagree on tactics.But this doesn't mean that there's really a
basic disagroosent and I think that the presshas used you and undoubtedly will continue touse you in an oiiort to drive tboso wedges and I
tint your allusionin tho picture selection
business is ispartial oi it.
Let so sake one observation about that, as anewspaper nan. ILALOOL-II, whom I've known iorsany years, sakes sose very violent statements,at least they cone out that way in the press.low any picture editor would be pretty sillyto use a smiling picture with some oi the quoteswhich have been attributed to his, whether
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right or wrong about the quotes. Roint h
nuahor two, a survey not to long ago ehowed.,,.that 75$ oi the people never heard oi lillbll X.he a result oi all the recent'prees 50$ Of thepeople have heard oi hia. ton ve becoe Q?¢' 1pretty well hnovn and I see a little saile }on your iaoe now because oi the press which -you cannot obJeot too_nnoh3=g¢;;__H. _4};», __'_ - , . ____';_»_::_;-__' -. _'92_' -__;'A,.-_. ,1
Let he nu this oollent and.ee 1 said earlier,about 15$ oi the people, it waan't I who they 'said they haven't heard oi, they said they never
down, I think by Iewsveek._ §;q; _ +*-~ if- _a- , .. v .. - .- f . t _
Io Iewswosk was a little diiierent survey.This ie the one about you. Ievsveek showed _that the Black luslins were Oth and last _..--*
or were last oi all the Iegro Organinatiolas iar as popu1arity.~ -»-»4¢;: fl- '
Yes. During tho Kenyan uprising or the Africanuprising in Kenya by the Iau Inns, whites usedto go to the Airicane and ask thee had they .ever heard oi Ghana or had they ever heare "oi the Iau lane and naturally every Airinaa n.said no, I don't know what your talking about -and the sane one that said I don't know -- 'would get that Ihite Ian's head that night whenhe went to bed. Ihen you go into the Iegroooeunity aiter projecting the Iualias in theiaage that they've been projected in and aek aIegro have yon heard oi thee, the one that yon 'asked light be the minister oi the Iosqne andhe'll eay no I never heardul then. I wae "linister in Boston in 1953 oi Iosqne Inaber lland I worked with whites every day and theydidn't know I was a Inalin, had they aaked sososething about eyseli, they didn't even -asked ne about anything, about whether or notI was a Iuslie. You didn't know CASSIUS CLAY
was a Iuslie until it was announced this year.There are enny people who are Iuolins and ehoare askeduery day are they luslias, who neverheard oi then. Io're living in a society wherethe people sonetines have to be very acrobatic-
-IO-heard oi the lnsliea on this enrvey which was _;
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Let no ask you a question about that.IALOOHI you brought thie upon youroelt. xv _can you name one leader oi the_logro *4??? *Frace who ie a aeaher oi either_the I1aoh*f" -
Incline your huelin Ioeque.§;¥f"; d; ;;7; ,
. --'§£,e"- '*___-_-+.One what? , . ' _ H ' *r '1' 1 '- 1_-1;. .- - . ' _ 1 -..-.4?-» - . ~»¢ ">-Leader, prominent...--a *;;%&}>@ ;-=§{{;v ;¥§?
Give no eoee example, ehat dojyou nean hy that? I. -- . - 92, . ' '92;.:'_$_.---. . '
mm-1! mm: mud, mm nwcu, an unnn,nu-In mm, aura noon, Ion mm. n
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They're Chrietiah. <n;' "~"-_
Let he go dovn the lint oi any prominent ~Iegro. Can you nane one eho ie identifiedor intereeted in this oaune?_ lane one ~
intellectual Iegro. "
Yes. I think you'll find that thore il agrowing tendency among our people in thiecountry to forget our religious differences 5and realize that this problee that our peopleare confronted by ie too big ior religioue ,
differences or organizational dittorenceeor pereonal ditferencee to keep ua apart, eo _
that all these so-called leaders ae you 1. .
referred to then are beginning to nee they
won't he leaders, they won't have anybody _iolloeing thou it ue don't get eoee reeulte -_-
H . __
The quoetion was though can you nane one who has ever identitied or in aylpathetic with thiecauae? Iveryone has blasted or denounced you.
I Iouldn'tnane any one oi them._ - ._. . .-,' _, ._ _--.1. .l.
I0? when you any neaher oi a inaudible!'or eynpathetic to. ' " '
Yen.
I've represented and defended Iuelinn.
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Senator
IALCOLI
SenatorDOUGLAS
X:
DOUGLAS"
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I011 your a lawyer, you have every right to.
and other laeyere have both ehiteaad Ie¢re4q%j '
by the eay, both Iorth and South, eo I thiuk_:_for your purpoaee at leaet lete drae a line Y"; ';Lbotvoen the people eho are aembere, ii that'e : the right term. I aleaye have difficulty -you nee in thia proble oi the diatiaotioa '1botween eomebody eho ie a noaber et a groep1*;A
and one who ia intereeted iu_a group. _ ¢v§* . . .. ' _- -'Q _,.__.. .,[-_ ti:. '_ - , |-_J_'Io l'a talking about atrictly the haeie **qproblon, the aeparationiat theory agaiult-31:the inaudible!. . . a -f;:_j_¢ _--;;;- j
Ice that'e still another pr-ob1a|'iL' mi . inthat event Governor IALLNCB oi Alabama hae to
be listed. .- P ;- .*- ._.. <1--;_> -92 -, ' 1 -¢_ _ p Q-. -3.! - - -r. r ' . .. 8Don't go to Alabala or Iieeioeippi, come_te7*-lllinoie. '
I can provide you with some good Chicago
names to. y . M ,. - .-__r__- . 2 _-_ _ - _. .
Senator DOUGLAS eante to get a word ia.
Just on this point, on the practicality orpossibility oi separation even ii it weren't
desirable. first you eay Africa ia where ee 4prefer to go. Hoe can you tranaport 20 millionAfricans iron the United Statue to Alrica-'GARVEY lph.! advocated that after Iorld Iar I.
-1 .. . .1GARVEY ph.! had the largest maee I" "7 "jlovelont or any Hogro leader in the hietory
01 this country. . .
Tee I know but he couldn't get anybody to
Africa. " .@ =. - f- -¢._1 _. -, _ _
Because he eae iraeed up by the IederalGovernment. You tailed to realiae that theywore, according to this book here, Anti-Slaverywhich is probably the best docuaent on alavery
in this country, or one of the beet, erittenby a University oi Iichigan Professor. Onthe chapter called Slavery and Political Poeor
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IUPCIIIT
IALOOLI X!
Senator DOUGLAS
IALBDLII
8enator DOUGLAB
IALCOLI It.i -_
it eaye right here if Ir. XIV IIPCIIIT .
1111 bear ae witneee that it Q84 oi_iiret tape!.. . , -.. . . . J, ,, . .' _ . lg 7' , .-' ;.=*=--1? .~.'lr- -2* .- "'._ 'Y_-'.'- "'4"; -'.' '1_ _v _- "1': :1_'{§§_.-F- :--'~ H __.- __1§»._ ._ 2 U-_,: ;;- _'.. L .-.-..- . _ . .. _. . ._@ .____, _ 92_ .92__ .'____,_J_r *9 ,. 1 - ';'-- . -; .~.| ' . . ' . _ . ., A - ._.,.; _ _ »-_ -. A -_ - - ,-.9: _£ A.!,92- -3- - 1'-n ' ,5!-'-4"";-1 ..; . ;-.1-. - .- - 1',.-- ,3 -_ .
1 think the inane 5.;-;a;11; been 4°1.¢a==:* -
here now with all the other ieeuee eeide that the
theory oi aeparatio en} integration_that aoet 192
J
oi on are iighting ior in thie oonatr1;'3* 3:" 5*
bv 60 You think a aepcratioacoe1d poeaihle¢=# wort, ia thin a really realiatio_approach,¢;;;§1 ;~,to the problen lil»®llf"I;.~=~i- " ff _=' ' "
Beparation ien't the'ohjeotive, nor iah" - *-_lintegration the ongeotive.i The objective eii:*about 20 million black people in thin country '
ia ireedoa. Roe the integrationiate are '
using integration ae the nethod by which to A
obtain that objective and eere neing separation
an the nethod by which to obtain that objective.The integrationiete have run into eo Ian! '
obstacles on tho road oi integration until
they have lost eight oi their real original
objective and how have niataken the objective ,for the aethod. . J 1 w;i§ ; , -' +1 ~u , _'_,-. -1 . .. 4 _ t r
Iell l want to any that I think you'll rnn -_jinto greater diiiicultiee in the field of
eeparation. In the iirat place hoe can you »nove again 20 niliion Americana to iirica in a '
country which in already poeaeaaed by black j"
Airioane. -i_ .;' t -: ~ Q..-I. ¢ . 92.. . _
Iell thoae are our brothera over there.'j*- 3,
I know but they won't accept foo; It eill colt 100 billion dollare in the iirat place. M ' .
America la lending Ilbillion dollare to the
Latin Alerican conntriea in the Alliance for _Progreaa or whatever they oil it. Aaerioa ~
ia sending hundreda oi eilliona or hillione
oi dollars to Connniet countries like Polandand Hungary and neutraliet countries like India
and those people over there have made nocontribution whatsoever to thin nyaten. Bo I
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Senator DOUGLAB:
IALCOLI I:
Senator DOUGLAS:
IALCOLI X: _1-.
don't think the cont in the prohln. The
question ie would our people in atrica accept
this and would our people go. Iee our people
in Airica would accept us, they would welcome
ue with open area. _ §* ', ~Q$<!_- .~-
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I epent laet night at an Airican aitair---~
at the BI where hrothere have heea_inviting_.ae and othere to Airica for the longeet tineand I think that it'e wrong tor inerica tothink that Atricane wouldn t accept ua with _-
open area.
They'd accept you ae a wery able Iegro
but whether they'd accept 20 aillion ieeoaething elee again, give up their land andgive up their resources. Bo l thin: in tactyou'll have to aeeh eeparation in thie country.
low it you try to take over Florida or
Caliiornia, it 20 aillion Iegroee try to
take over California iron 110 million whites
or non-Negroes your Just going to have aCivil Iar or the most deadly typo and do youexpect l0 million to prevail against l70 nillion?
I don't think that when the rounding tathere of
thie country, only 13 coloniee wanted toeecede iron England, they didn't let the odda
oi the English Empire or the Britieh Inpire
that were againat then in any way deter
the from their goal or lreedon, Juetice andequality. They didn't care what the odds
'.l'.e _
They were a relatively unified group opposinganother group acroae the eeae hut here you -
would have to drive out the l7 million people
of Caliiornia or some 6 million people in
Ilorida. 92 _
It air you tailed to realize or coneider
that thie country wae inhabited by ladianewhen the white nan cane here from Europe and he
didn't let the tact that the country was alreadY
occupied deter hin tron taking it over.
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Senator DOUGLAS:
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ILLCOLI IS
Senator DOUGLAS:
IUPCIHET:L9 Q0
Yes but there's a relatively snail nunber
of Iogroes, not sore than 500,000. ;_ ;:f
Iihdhl I thught you would add that to yourlist of offenses for the white raos. I .1' -
certainly would._ ,_- _ .
It is one of the offenses. But here's ths_§ .7~
thing sir that you failed to oonidsr. -;Ihen the Iegro civil rights fighter thinksof himself as a civil rights fighter, usuallyhe thinks within the confines of the Anerical
boundaries and on the Anerican stage the negrois a minority. He's an underdog, the odd areagainst hie. But there's a new awakening '-
among Negroes wherein they look at the wholestruggle in its world oontents and on theinternational stage our people are part ofthe dark world which is the najority and the
white nan is th einority. -
You look forward then to a Iorld Iar, I race
war with those of darker skins against the
white. This is really what your lookingforeard to. low I'll jut say one thing '
nore and quit because we've kept Ir. PACKARD
here without saying a word and Ir. III has
said alaoet nothing. You ea! want to escapefrom us, many whites want to escape fre you
ht I submit that we're here in this countrytogether and we've got to learn to get along
with each other. You eay not went to getalong with u or lots of us don't want to getalong with you but we're hero, we can't escape,
we can't fly, ee can't flee. Here we are
now how can wo best get along? _
I would like BOB to address hinelf to th thingsthat you said about the number of Iegroes whowould leave this country and settle in Africa.I don't get the iepression that there's very
many, do you Ir. IIHG?
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I certainly don't I07. Al a aattor of taot
that Io'vo boon ghting 1 .andyihat I I'llan-u¢¢11n¢ tor no a nu _l.Ild 1 may *
admit by that ay idoa oi a fair lharo 3,tor no and my family and ot.ho,1f_]poriodl"lop-on without diaoriuiaatidn on aooount oi - n .oolor aro tho thing! that tlO_ Uhitld ltatol 4 *
in capable oi both natorialiyand apiritually.-_-'_..and ma 1 think by virtuolot tho Qua-tooi ay anoootora I havo a 1'!-dllt to, and I.1L
think that that poiition ll thb'hoI1tiouL0Q_» _a lumbar o! Iogrooa in thl llaitod ltatol, ' _
aoduohody1sgoingtoaIapaoaauodioo1oood,_-an uudividod piooo o! a uadovolopod oontinoat.Undo:-populatod oontihnut ._ A ' ii,-¥-:"-ii 7 1
I011 thorn: IOII quoation a1_to_ Ihotholf Africa1| undo:-pqpulattd or lot,-- Y: :6 it - ?L<_"
lllldtr-populltid and undo:--dovdloped. ' '
There: a question about that. It certainlydo0In't have as many people pot lquaro ail-o .
aa aoao othor ooutinonta it that: that you
moan by undor-populatod. - .
Attorney III} tho gouoratiol that you '-
I.P1'...tooooo0oO 11'?-92"_;;_ ".""1-.:_ ' . -
Ihich gonoratioa do I roproooatf _
tho gonoration that you call in ll I -gonoration ot patiouoo. __ . . ff-. _,._~. ,_ _. I-_92. .'._' ,_that: jut not truo. Iy generation il thogeneration that whipped tho doproaoiou .
without regard to raoo, oz-ood or oolor.
Io managed to Iurvivo. Io tought and volaprottygoodvarandvo, Godhoipul ~
Ihothor to Io:-o right or not, it thoughtto Ioro fighting it tor tho 1:-oodon oi tho .
individual! without regard to taco.
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Ihat do you sean you thought? It youcan't say right now that that's what youwere fighting tor, and ii you were iighting
for it you didn't get it.
loll that's right we didn't any sore than ourfathers got desocracy when they iought Iorld
Iar I. But all this does is convince ao as
I said to Senator DOUGLAS betore we went on
the air that war apparently isn't a verygood instrument oi political and social
advance. That's what that proves.
Senator DOUGLAS pointed out that what I wasadvocating or at least iaplying was a coingIorld Iar. ADLAI BTEVIKSOI in the low Yorkfines pointed out that what was going on in theUnited Iations is a skin gase and he said thatthis night result as what is known in the UI
as the shin gaso. Earlier when we weretalking about TOTIBBS you mentioned SPIRGLIR ph.!SPENGLEB's book that he was host iamous for
was the Decline of the lest, but he wrote
another book in the early 19300 that was
loss iasous called The Hour oi Decisionand the thesis oi that book was that in theworld struggle it would iirst he based upon
class and then it would develop into a racestruggle. Ihen you study the history or the
world all of the struggles and ailmentswere based upon class. How it is shittinginto a racial block all owor this earth and
ii the sides lino up along racial lines andyou have Asorica aligned Iith Russia andChina aligned with the people oi Africa and
Latin Asorica and A511 Ihero would the
Iegro be in this country.
In the siddle, squarely in the middle and that's
what l'n concerned about.
and this is when you'll iind that the generationthat is coling up and sees this will he Just asready and willing to escape so that he canbe in a landmsurroundod by people that looksomething like he does instead of in a landwhere people have been hostile toward him
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IALOOII thin aesuaption about the aiiirlatiwe - ~ '
baled reaction: oi people on account of color in '"on your pertectly valid ohoerwationa ahoet the';' ;negative reaotione of whitel.- Let II ll! 18 ;-"F .*~. -*3,. ._.,.I can put it thia way. 8iaply_hecauee all! ? ;fg;¬Anerican whiten Judge Iegroee and Orientala Yl;¢$f@ - ._. - -'4and Iilipinoa and no on aolely on the haeie'"td§;;;3oi akin color. that doeea't aeaa that all the rghézworlda non-whiten aftirnatiyely ehraoe I0}1I'* rhecaoae they have a dark akin color, that Jaet __ien't true. fhie haa nothing to do with your v
and Senator DOUGLAS diacuaaion about what would-happen in Atrica, thia ie an observation that "
I can deaonatrate hy reference to the reaetioneoi various people in the Iar Iaat to each other.tor eaanple l'n sure Ir. III will agree withthin that it were not tor the Korean antagoniaato the Japanese and then later to the Chineae
particularly political aany o! the eontlietethat Korea haa been the yictia of over 8 "
centuries or there abouts would never have
occured. all oi those people who were rightingand all oi those people who were naneacring_ ~' *each other and exploiting each other were Ori taleg
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The sane thing ia true down in Boutheaat Alia _ __;with the exception oi that little handtol o! '.'. Aaerican troops the Viet Ian and the Yiet Cong :6are all people who are ethnically o! the aaa _¢ Hgroup. The aere tact that people are the eaae ~ f;color doesn't lake thca agree about thinge ' "Q?and that's true in the United ltatee ae it in ="¬Liin the next world. j.:; b 1g,;.-"7"¥$3- " <-.P'~ q' Eh. I Y .
Colonial policy wae alraye divide_and conquer. -~3#_ I _. 101 couree it wan, or whitea by the hay an well to
an non-whiten. ' "- "
Certainly but it etill wan divide and conquer ;and noot oi your colonial powera were white -_ = 5powers that had oolonizod non-white countriee_ "and they had to divide and conquer hecauae "
usually they were out numbered. low onellipp-OIIOG 1|! e e e e e e a
And they used Christianity trequently aa part
oi the division.
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I'm giving you ammunition.
Certainly, I thank you brother. One or the thinga
that haa happened in this century that people
lone eight on wae the Bandung Conference. -
At Bandung one of the thinge they agreed
to do was to submerge diiterencee, they had :11
different pointe at which they were in conilict
with. One thing all of the people who attended
the Bandung Conierence had in comon wae that.
they were iron Africa or Ania or probably '
Latin America and they were oppreeed, they were
colonized, they were the underdoge. Bo they
put aaide their differencee and agreed to do
something in common to eliminate a comon
oppreeor, a comon exploiter and it wae thie
decision that wae reached at Bandung that
helped to hring about the emergence of eany
oi the African natione who had really nothing
to tight with. A
We've been sorting people on the basis or race
and religion for years and now you say
IALCOL¥.the practice is beginning to he
used by American whites on each other which
tolIIOIIIQI
The chickens are coming hone to roost.
Ihich leads no to the comment that I nade that one
d the big prohlenn oi the American leg:-o in his
fight for equality was he was really asking the
American power structure to treat him better
than the American power atructure treata
hundreds oi thousands oi whitee. -
l'n surprised IAIDOLI that you would use that
phrase the chickens are coming home to roost,
because as I recall you used it at the tine of
President KENHEDY'e assaeeination tor which you
were suspended by ELIJAH IUHAHIAD.
loll it's an expression I use and by it I mean
that what you put out now is coming back upon
you and at the time that I used it when
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Preeident IIIIEDT was aeeaeainated I wae
aaking a Ipeech at the lanhattan Center in
Iew York and the topic vee dod'e Judgment of
Ihite Americana and the point that I wee _
uaking wae that Juat.ee lone tell because oi
the eeede oi alavery and eoee oi these other
Ihpiren like the Greek Ihpire, the Pereial
lapire, the haby1oniau_lhpire and_theu r.
Biblically you had thi,8odoeitee and the,,
Igyptiane and eo forth just ae the aeedai
that they aeeed ultimately brought about
their own undoing I wee ehowing how
the aeoda that Anericl had aewed by the -
ennlavenent ct the Iegroee in thie countrygas bringing about her_uadoing today plus
Orlillllll
Iov doe: that relate to the aeeaeeiuatiou
oi President IEIIIDT. - t
I: getting to it. Ilue her involvement
in the affairs of othere all over the world
illegally and
backbone upon
the reportere
country which
whore eoeeoneianorally was beginning to cone
her and had created a climate,
laid, a uliuate oi hate in thie
brought about a eituation
would eeeaeeinate the President
oi the country. Bo that when I laid the
ohickeno had cone hoee to roost I waen't
apeaking about the death oi an individual
nan I was eaying the eale thing that the
reportere had eaid when they referred
to it aa the climate oi hate. The clinate
of hate that had been created in thin country
wae not by ee, not by hlacka but by onew
who were responsible for depriving the civil
rights dononetratore, the boycottere, the
ireedoa ridere and otherw, they were the ones
who had created this cliuato of hate I0 I
said the chickene cane hone to rooet not
leaning that I was happy over the death oi
an individual but all oi thin wae part of
the overall collective inaudible! that had
cone down upon the head oi one nan.
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Senator
IABOOUII:
X:
DOUGLASlost or the public and certainly the sanyou call the leader oi your iaithcertainly sisunderstood and disagreed
with your expression. -_ -
Io, the Honorable ILIJAI IUIAIIAD newersuspended se because oi the statesent I ssdeperse but he had told se in advance not to sakeany statesent concerning the death oi thePresident, pro or con, and I disoheyed hisand sy suspension was based upon that disobedienoow could he suspend as tor sshing a resarh "about a nan Ihos his oeu teachings condemnedas being responsible ior the situation that
exists in this country.
Oh you don't nean that. You don't scanthat ILIJKB IUHAIIAD held the hte President
IEHIIDY responsible.
lot his perse.
Well that's what you just said and I take ityou didn't nean it and that's the reason........
lot his perse, hin as a syabol. The whole 'structure, the administration, the governaentwhich had dillied-dallied when it caseto the rights oi our people is held responsiblefor the rights oi our people. lee IIKIIDIonly was the sysbol of it s11.
: Iell I sust protest. I think your undiscrisinatingin your putting guilt on individual whitesas whites aren't putting guilt on individualIegroes or condesning a whole group because
oi the sins oi soe.
Senator, in the lee York tines, the Iew YorhTises pointed out Just before the death oithe President that there was dilly-dallyingon the part oi the.....here it is. In theHes York Times on October 84th it saysIhich lay on Civil Rights? All the fighting yover the civil rights legislation in the HouseJudiciary Committee is being done by theIriends oi civil rights against one another,
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and then it goes on to explain shy and thennosn at the bottoa it condemns the adninietrationfor trying to eater does s civil rights billshich it considered stronger than one they hadQ3-
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originally intended. The point that 1's aahiag _;_is that the Iee York tines oondesned the o."-7a -administration and condeaned the President andhis brother tor backing dosn on Ihat it had i
considered in the first place a eoralissne Q,and it condoaned both the attorney General}-Iand the President again tor entering the - - -
hill down netore it had even gotten out there-
in the field. -.*.-- . - '-
But IALCOLI don't you realise the great -fstrength oi the eiiorte that have been nade
on behalf of Negroes in the United States
has been that legally the opponents oiabolishing discrimination have been defeatedevenrtine, they've been able CO auster '
no substantial deiense. The Urban League
from the social work personnel point oi
view has produced irreputable arguments.IABTIR LUTHER KING to use as a eyabol it Inay be permitted to has produced a noral anda ethical position shich is inaudible!.ow when you turn to talking oi separation
and violence don't you really iurnish ouropponents with something that they can argueabout without being able to aeet thee with the
assurance that the IAACP can do on the leal
tront the Urban League and the Bonthern
Christian Leadership Conierence and otherchurch groups and so on. Ios that's shat
bothers ne. P
. J
The lee York fines again on......
I don't care about the lee York fines.
I: asking you. -
Ihenover I seen to sake an objective analysisiron my own point oi vies over the dilly-dallyingof those politidans it's aade to iapair that
I: a criminal.
loll certainly not by ae.
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Iell sayhe not he yos but by these others.
I night disagree with you without regardingyou as a criminal. ~=§j;; ' - -
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here's what it points sit concerning theadministration thee supposed to be tor tbecivilrights hill. It speaks oi now the administrationiinds iteeli eabarrassed hecause the louse . -
Judiciary Committee lee !PPfov.d a civil rightshill the Ihite louse considers too strong ior
any realistic change oi passage. AttorneyGeneral IIIIIDT has gone before the fullcommittee to urge that lose oi the strengtheningprovisions he knocked out in the interest oiobtaining sore support from siddle oi the roadIopublicans and Democrats. Iut its concessions
to political expediency contrasts sharpelyto the administration's previously esphasison the privacy oi the moral issue in the national
struggle tor equality tor every American.The last paragraph says this, next to the
last. Retreat boiore the battle is the
worse way to block the campaign oi SouthernDesocrats to scuttle any seaningiul civil .rights legislation. There was no place iorpartisanship in the field ior a sound civil
rights hill but to seek unity through an
approach based on the lowest comsondenominator of consensus harms the bill's
enenies sore than it does its friends.In the last paragraph it says in the appealto conscience, the President in his addressto the nation a iew days beiore his civilrights message, the Iresident declared thatthis country have all its hopes and all its inaudible! will not he iully iree until
all oi its citiscns are_iree". That is the
yardstick that ought to guide the Congress
in the debate nos nearing a clisax in the
louse Judiciary Cosmitteep_ .j' -
Before we were cut oi! by that conorcial sorudely we did esphasise IAJEDLI that we wouldget a very strong civil rights hill which isnow pending and as the Senator says he hashopes that it eventually, within two months,
will come to some inaudible!.
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mt IX 1'.I¢ Q I'.wI"'eeeeeeee3 '- Q ._-I _' _ j:-, ' " .-'_' 1;, =r:'¢£i;-D-,"-: -._-E =-' ""1You eero reading old etorie inoideotally 8rue7"
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sun - and you umgui op I-Ii om etory in
reierence to President IIIIIDI eo I had to .+"
clarity it. ~ . ; ¬~ 1 ~ym,;*"i1g .»1fiz' ' _ ' '9: . ' _='- I!-.. m
You brought up an old phrase the chicken! ffare coming hone to rooett; i :_r _}v=3 ¢'
And X hacked it up.'. ¢"jH _g
You hacked avay iron it;' *?, _ ~§T_ '3
Io I hacked it up. IDBBIT IIHIIDT one accueedhy the head oi the IAACP in Iaahingtoo D. ¢., ~IITCHELL, right at the tine that thil lane thill
oae taking place and the adinietration eae _
accused or selling Iegroea out oo the civil
rights hill by trying to eater it doea.
The political tactic vorted and ve got out oi
the House a strong civil righte bill end we on
it and 1': very glad IAIJZOII to have the plugtor ay iavorite organisation the liiBP, ithelped a little. Thanks a lot.- . -K ~
I nay be coming hack to Ir. IALOOLI {hut 'you hnov you've aentioceo that in order to .
achieve your goal you lay he Iilliog to -
eacriiice l0 million people. Iov euppoee -
that you achieved your goal at last afteraacriiicing 10 million people, ehat then? c
Ihat about the 10 ailliou people vho were
aacriiiced? loo auppooing again that you
had the absolute control over theoe 10 -
uillioo poople or you could influence then eo
that enogh, no auch eo, that you could lent;
then the eay you wanted. 8o you aacriiicedyour ova people and at laat you achieved yourgoal. The question ia so what? Ihat then?
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1 never said anything about sacriiioin_§e zmillion people. l was quoting eonooae elae._.
I think that vhat you tailed to consider re 1.have pointed out as the only solution eitortemust be made tor us to solve our probieme= ;-
ourselves. At present ae I said l'e still e
lualia, my religion is still Islam, but Ie have _
become involved in political action, in eooial.
action and in economic action designed to get
all oi our people actively involved in any =
program that will eliminate the evile that _
exist in our community and that l eeel_te he'--
the target oi hoe is not the present program '
that we have but eoaething that has to do Iith
the past Ie're involved in voters regietrati . on
ee're involved in voters registration drives
across the country. I was trying to cooperate
eith lev. GULAIISOI ph.!aad Dr. POIILI. in --
Iee York in the school boycott against the -
segregated school system and since I0! IILIIIS
issued a call he said for one million sore
registered Negro voters for this year we have
said that we're going to try to roieter more
than a million right in the lee York area alone.
loll this shoes that ee're trying to involve
ourselves with the civil rights groups in e
struggle that will eliminate these evils.
But we will involve ourselves Iith then bl
issues upon which eo can agree. In areas
ehoro oe eill disagree we eon't even bring up
that other discussion. 1 . 'g=W;'_ - c_ '|_-_ -o . --' ,_-.: -
IALOOII let no ask yon a very quick queetion
because tine is running out and you oaa_;y~
ansoor this eith a yea or he. - gfiglt
l never anaeor questions yea or no. ' {i"1
,-
All right, but a short aneeer. rhoro'a'booa~a story around that you charged or some - '
people charged in your behali that there Iee
an attempt to assassinate you by people eith
vhon you were ioraerly associated.' 4I
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Tee, it in a fact that an effort eae nadeto get eoneone to remove no from the landof the living and thanks to ALLA! the oneewho eere choeen or aent out to do it inforned
IO of it.
Thanks to ALLAH or BLIJAI?
ALLAH - Ahnd, God. the onen who vere eentout to do it informed no of it and I had h .chance to give the a little knowledge thatopened their own eyes and nade it eo that itwasn't poesihle for someone to nieuee the.in that manner. Beyond that I have nothing
eore to any about in
inaudible! who stimulated and who the source
of this effort was?
I have nothing more to any about it.
It still is a very dramatic charge.
loll I believe that every nan is born to dieand whenever your involved in a etruggle forfreedom and against injustice I think you have
to realize in advance the price that your[Ding to have to pay, one way or another,and I realize that price and 1': villing totake the stand that I take whatever the price
in.
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"P9 .= sic, ITE2? rem: os~8999! mm u-is-an
616 I1-non mg! '
5-@1397: MAIECLEJ II. LITILE, dza
IS - N01
on 3-9-61:, subject qt-peered on the news and commentary prograrr,
The '.'.'0rl.d At Ten , " television station -.T§ID'1, channel 13, NYC. He was
interviewed by co:u;enta1nr JOE DURSO relative to his split from the NQI
on 3-E-61:.
. Attached hereto for each copy of this memo is a transcription oi
the interview, obtained from a tape of the program made by the IZYO.
It is noted that this interview was the subject of HY airtel
and dated 3-11-6h, copies to :90: file 3-11;, Chicago and Phoenix,
1-1c5l?eo9 WI! .-19!
, 1-100-152959 '71! L12!
,105-B999
y 61<3 ,
ALL INFORMATION CONTAINED
NC ASSIFIED _ I§I_¬.IE';N§zA¢U Q .Benez?:l/e9Z/
/3"d"r>44
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rr 105-8999 ip
DURJO:
HALCCLK I
DURJO:
_._92V -Ju-r
well MALCOLM, the first thing I am not "completely sure about is Just what is it j
that you lef;,the Muslim religious movement;-4the Muslem political arm or what? ¥
well, my religion is Islam and evenything I_know was tdught to me by the Honorable ELIJAHMUHAMMAD andeverything that I am I was madethat also by him and during the ninty days of 1
Si1G;C¬ that I have experienced during the suspension since December first, I made up mymind that the best way for me to help spread;the ELIJAH MUHAMMAD diagnosis and solution forthe problems that beset our people in thiscouh;ry is ;o stay out of the Nation of Islam
and work among the hon-Muslim so-called Negroesin zhis country. Tha; does not mean that m _religion is no; Islam and that does not mean
that I am no; still a Muslim. And it does not
mean that I am not still a believer in AIIAHI
and a follower of the Honorable ELIJAH MUHAMMAD.
how you refer ;o your suspension, maybe we bettergo back and fill i; a li;tle bit. That occurred,
as I recall, some ;ime after remarks attributed;o you abou; ;he assassination of President
KEKIEDY. Didn't it?
.9Yes. Right after the time as the assassination,
I had made a speech at Manhattan Center and thetopic of the speech was God's Judgement of WhiteAmericans and was citing different things to showwhereceyerycnlng that was happening to America in
this is was actually the fullfillment of DivineProphesy, and the assassination itself was thefullfillment of Divine Prophesy. And in sayingtha; it was chickens coming home to roost, I wassaying nothing different from what was being saidby every news announcer, who described it as the
I-W./'
"--.NY 105-8999
DUR5O:
MALCOLM X:
DUR$C:
BHLCOLH X:pl up I,
result of a clima.e of ha;e. Well, climate
of hate is
coming home to
in the eye
that I was
that sort.
Well, donchickens coming home to roos;
in the circumstances in which
No I don't
think that
;o do is b
;hose fac;
for or whethe same expression as chickens
roost. S0, it was distorted
s of the public and made to appear*q~3 "*"f} to hate or someahing of
t you think though that the term
is inappropriate
it was.~:£.
think it was inappropriate. I
one of the nhings Americans need
e able to face facts. Whecher
s deal with someone they have sentiment
her she facts deal with a stranger
aid Americans have formed the habi; of beingable so look mbjeczively as things that theyare not themselves involved in, but when it is
so;e-hii'
var" s92be5 she; is dear so them, they becomective and ;he" lose their sight sis M U ll
.1 ; C; .L.a .__O.l.
But appare cl; MUHAMMAD felt strongly enoughabout it to invoke this nincy day suspension.
Dldt he?
Actually the Honorable ELIJAH MUHAMADsuspended me for disobeying him. Not so
much for t
I made ;he
concerning
the end of
used it in
to distorthe remark. He had warned me before
remark not to make any statements
the death of the President and at
my speech, I used this ;erm and I
such a way that the press was able
it and project it to mean other
than i; did. So he suspended me. But the
suspension
getting on
mmyfmm.was actually my disobedience ina topic that he had told me to ssay
9.
NY 105-8999
DURSO:
MALCOLM X:
DURSO:
MALCOLI I:
DURSO:
MALCOL1 H:By theuay, why did you disobey him?
Well, I imagine it had
I couldn; really answer
of those things. Today
meant because of all of
of events that were set
become such that I JustJust. Actually,
it. It was one
I believe it was
the chain reaction
in motion have .
believe that thatan
it itself was part of Divine Prophesy.
livale bit After that, after MUHAMMAD
suspended you as I understand what you saidWell, now let's bring the narrative up a
D o
tonight y
that youru have it increasingly at leastpresence in the movement might be
a source ofjéhbarrassment or friction or
disloca;ion of some kind?
That could be because originally thesuspension was to last for ninty days and
recently I was informed that the suspension
would be indefinite, and I wasn't given any
concrete explanation as to why, so I feel that
I am a very ou;spoken person, I believe inspeaking what is on my mind, especially if I
know its zrue. And since I am given to making
statements that could be embarrassing to other
I feel that its probably best for me to stay
out and work among the non-Muslim so-calledNegroes and try and make them aware of the
condibions as they actually exist. And also
make them aware of the fact that the only real
analysis or diagnosis is Mr NUHAMMAD's
diagnosis and also his solution.
Well then yesterday actually what you did
since the suspension was already indefinite,
was to suspend yourself indefinitely as I see?
This is correct.
3 _ . iv!. It L
5:
NY
DURSO:
MALCOLI I
DURSC:
MALCOLH I
DURSO:
MALCGLU I
DURSO:
MALCOLI I
DURSO:
HALCOLU I105-3999
n
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But the suspension was not religiouscertainly, it was, what would you say,
organizational, political?
Organizational. More organizational because=-44¢
you don't be suspended from a religion.
Your
Now,
veryreligion is your personal conviction
who initiated your action yesterdaybluntly, was it you or MUHAMMAD?S
My action yesterday? .
Yes
The action that I initiated was iniciated
of,-' me yes.
ins question raised is did
pressure on you to leave?he put more
No. He did inform me that
would be indefinite, and I
during the past ninty dayswas just waisiing away. It is hard to makethe rooster stop crowing once the sun is
risenthe suspension
could see that
being silent I
well I don't think anybody would accuseyou of jus. waisting away exactly Mr. MALCOLM.MAX LERNER said today thab you disdaineda duel wikh MUHAMMAD for the leadership of
the movement.
No. LERIER is not in a pOSi3iOn ;o analyzeany action that is taken by any Muslim. Iread LERNER'5 column. He fit very well shetiule of his column. He can remove the questionmark. LERHER is not in a position to say that
I disiained any kind of conjeczure with Mr.MUHAMMAD. I am a follower of Mr. MUHAMMAD.
H
NY 105-B999
DURSO:
MALCOLH X.
DURSC:
MALCOLH X:
DUFLJO:_. . J., 92 _ /'7? 5
He is the one who taught me what I know.what would I look like en;erin3 into somekind of debate or dispuoe with him. He isthe one who made me what I am and my loveand respect for Mr. MUHAMMAD is higher todaythan ii was 12 years ago when I first became
one of his followers.
Incidentally, since you did mention MAXLERNERs column and zhe zitle of in, I have
a copy of it here. I: is called "whiteDevils?"and of course ihe context in whichthat headline was wri,;en has so be underscood.Of course he is referring back :1 a quotation
shat was applied :0 your viewpoint on the
white race.
Well I got the impression that he wasasking is it so and you take Mr. LERNER'sanalysis of our relig;ous objectives andin my opinion it is a very diabolical
analysis.
well, now coming back to what you say youapparently still profess greac respect forMUHAMMAD, Nevertheless, you seem to think
tha; ssayihg within the organizationpolitically would be a source of embarrassmen;
to him and perhaps a divisiveness in the
organizasion.
More, not more, not so much embarrassment
as divisiveness.
Well, don't you think that breaking away andsetting up your own organization is about as
divisive as you can get.
F
NY 105-8999
MALCOLM X:
DURSO:
MALCOLM X:
DURSO:|_ . ; I,34 /"
NO. I don't think so because is is my
intention to work among the, there are
22 million so-called Negroes in chiscountry. Ho one knows ne exact numberof Muslims, but I am in a good position to
know that there is a strong sympazhyamong the non-Muslim so-called Negroelement in the philosophy that is taughtby the Honorable ELIJAH MUHAMMAD and it ismy incention, as a Kuslim in the Nazionof Islam, the restrictions placed upon memade 1; somewhat impossible for me to work
at a broad enougnt level to reach thevarieuy of people who are having a growinginteres; in what Hr. KUHAHHAD is teaching.
In my preseno posicion, de;ached from theorganization itself, is is possible for meto do wha;ever I think is necessary no reachand awaken and enlighien akd unite our peopleand load then in zhe direzzion of Jhe Honorable
ELIJA1 HUHAEHAD.
You nave ;ot tries tale ou; on MUHAMMAD yen
have you. ;his viewpoint of yours you areaczually leading people by a circuitous rou;e
back to him?
The Honorable ELIJAE KUHAF i has alwayscaugha us thac everyoge oi one black people
in this counsry weuls accept zhe religionof Islam at a given Lime or as a certain time
and any eiforc aha; is pus for;n by anyone
in this coun;ry :0 awaken and enlighten Negroeswill always point omen in one direction of Mr.
MUHAHMAD.
Well, sow 1e;s go: sow; -o ene brass tacks
of the case, Mr. MALCCLK, and exactly what
it is shat you are seeking to co? Nowprecisely what are you achieving to do?
b
HY 10$-5999
MALCOLM X:
DURSO:
MALCOLM X:_-. -»---Q1.1-
,l "_f§_s- K, _»_.- .-~. *1 '
1;- .us._*,.;__' .;:"-92 "'.
.a:;¥
= j#a-
well, probably it, you have to understanqiic
when I say that I believe that Mr. ?§j_
MUHAHMADs analysis of the problem in thief,country is correct and most of your civil. .
rights leaders also say this. They say ;5
that they go for his analysis but not his
solution. well, five years ago most of your
civil rights leaderssaid that they condemned
his analysis. Now they have gotten nerveenough to admit that they believe in his -
analysis. A year from now they'll have "
nerve enought to believe, to admit that they
also go for his solution. I know that they
see Mr. MUHAMMAD's analysis and solution asthe only real approach to the problem and it
is my intention to drive this point home.
Nell, lets be more specific than that. In
driving this point home I presume you willno. change any of your viewpoints.and of -
course so much comment and controversy for
exa4p1e.:ne idea of a separatest Negro move-
men; ;ha; has labeled you as rather an archce;re3a;ionist in the sense of advocating a
state for Negroes and one for whiten andpresunably the two states being side by side
wi;nin the same national quarters. It that
one idea?
well look a; Harlem. Harlem is a black city
within a white city. The only difference is
;hat the community of Harlem is controlled by
oucsiders. The econom of Harlem is controlled
by ouasiders. The politics of Harlem is~
controlled by outsiders. The social activity
in Harlem, the civic activity is controlled by
outsiders. Now, my religion is Islam, but m
political philosophy is Black Nationalism.
in economic philosophy is Black Nationalism.BU social philosophy is Black Nationalism, and
- r
f1.»/7
NY 105-5999
DURSO3
NALCOLI XL . U. -_-,%/ ,'
to me I believe that this is what the
Honorable ELIJAH MUHAMMAD beaches. So
that many Negroes who consider themselvesChristians and reluctant to acceptChristianity, rather Islam as their
religion, they are prone toward the
economic philosophy of the Black
Nationalist and the political philosophy
of ;he Black Nationalist, the socialphilosophy of the Black Nationalist. So
oQl we are going to approach the wholeproblem 0: a broad enough basis so thatevery Hegrq in Harlem will be able toideh;iJ;jTri>; something in some kind of
unified effor; toward gebzihg a solution
to the problem.
But doesn't that pu; you on the side of thewhite sogregatixnists in the South and against
the national civil rights leaders?
Wait a :ihu;e. Don't. Excuse me for
pointing my finger at you, bu- don't eversay ice whi-e segregationists in the South.
ew York Ci;y has a harder time gettingihte§P&IlOh in i;ss£hool system than they do
in Jackson, Mississippi, and the mistakes
that white Northcrners make is alwayspointing toward the South. Don't go down
South. Deal with New York City and this
docsn'; mean that we're segregationists.
white New Yorkers are segregationists. But
they try and camouflage their segregationwith token integration. Muslims are realists.we say that since the white man here in thiscity knows that he cannot s;omach integration
and the Negro is fed up with segregation, the
best solu.ion is separation and separation
difers from segregation in that segregationis Somelhin; that is forced upon inferiors bysuperior: and Hr MUHAMMAD teaches us thatseparazioh is done voluntarily by two equals.
Y I
NY 105-8999
DURSO:
MALCOLM K:
DURSO:
PHISOLE X:
DURSO:
MALCOLM K:
DURSO:>. H loo
' f ,
That puts you in the camp with segregationists
where ever they may be and against the
national civil rights leaders, Negro and white
well, it is not to say against the national
civil rights leaders. Most of the national
civil rights leaders are becoming disenchanted
with ;heir own efforts and their own achieve-
mentS and I think that theythemselves are
ready to make a reappraisal of their strategy
and zheir objectives.
well, I don't know because some of the most
recent things they've said indicate the
opposite. For example, WITNEY YOUNG of the
Urban League has referred to you inelegantly
and you will pardon the expression as a con
guy exploiting the misery of the masses.
JACKIE ROBINSON
Lets get to YOUNG first. WITNEY YOUNG has
just been offered one dthose crumbs by the
Administration in Washington, D.C. A big
job, and usually when you find those Negroes
in front of whose nose these fine Jobs have
been dangled, they always willing to say the
type of things that WITNEY YOUNG is saying
today.
well, JACKIE ROBINSON has called you a threat
to integration.
JACKIE ROBINSON has Just become part of
Governor ROCKEFELLER's political machine
and it is his Job to make Negroes think
that NELSON ROCKEFELLER is the Saviour who
will lead us to the promised land of integration
JAMS FARMER, as we said earlier, has called
you a talented demagogue and I don't want you
;o comment on the talent so much as the
demagogue.
*7
NY lO§-5999
MALCOLM X:
DURSO:
MALCOLM I.
DURSO:
MALCOLK I
DURSO:L O 1!. -7 '£ H
Not having gone as far in school as
Brother JAMES FARMER, you'd have to
break down the word demagogue for me.
I think you know what he meant though.
Ho. I think that I would not say that JIM
FARMER is justified in referring to me orany black person whose nationalistic in histhinking as a denagogue. Mr. FAHMER himself
will probably be in the Nationalist campbefore 196% is over. In fact, the failureof ahe civil rights movement in 1963 if the
civil rights leaders were honest, why they
would have come over into the Nationalist
camp a long time ago.
Well, you're predicting that JAMES FARNER ofCORE will be in the Nationalist camp. I don
know exaczly what you mean by the Nationalis
camp by zhe end of 196%.
Sir, I ;hink that most
of the racial struggle
that 19§+ will be far
than 1903 ever dreamtobjective observers
in this country agree
more explosive raciall
of being. There is no
gimmick ;his year like the March on washingt
to serve as a vent to the frustrations ofNegroes and because these gimmicks will have
had served their purpose or will have run
themselves out there will be nothing to cont
the Negroes in 1964 if they really begin toexplode ;hrough dissatisfaction and disillus
meat and I think at the end of the year FARI
and some of
; p -admi ublicly tha; their way is just banhr
,he HOSJ controversial of your viewpoints
a.£ that is you use the word explosive here.
You've also used the term active is self-
ee2e»se and the idea appears to be that you
don't go along with non-violence any more as
,0iE
those will then begin to see and
up
I thin: sha; brings us, MALCOLM, to some of|._J
v
14.
On
ain
ion-
R
U-
NY 105-8999
MALCOLM x= V Q - UQ %,,/
the way of achieving this. Now, may be
you better put onthe record right now Just
how you would go about the physical side
of achieving these things.
If the United States Government is on record
as being for desegregation and when these
Negro civil rights leaders become involved
in demonstrations against segregation, what
they areactually doing is trying to break
down laws or practices which the Supreme
Court has labeled as criminal. Now, if the
integrationists are against segregationists,
who arezziminals, then
the side of the integrationistthe law should be on
demonstrators
but in every instance where Negroes are
trying to integrate or
find that the one who
itself. It is the pol
dogs on them. So when
coming up now is begin
and the hypocrisy of 1
struggle and they are
what ever is necessary
the land be enforced 0
admit that it is not t
this is not violence.
where Negroes are begi
the Government itself
us Jrom the violence 0
suprenists, white rasc
the; it is time for Ne
is zecessary to defenddesegregate, you'll
is opposing them is the law
iceman who slicks police
the young Negro that's
hing to see the deceit
he entire civil rights
ready and willing to do
to see that the law of
r let the law enforcers
he law of the land, and
This is a situation
zning to see where, if
cannot step in and protect
f the whites, white
ists, white bigots,
gross to do what ever
ourselves and to protect
ourselves even if it means taking rifles and
shotguns and
rascists and
Negroes, and this is s
said and if nobody els
of the reasons that I
own is that I feel itdriving away from our door those
those bigots who are brutalizing
omething that has to be
e will say it, then one
am how ou; here on my
should be said and I am
going ;o say it and ii saying it in the capacity
that I an now in it won't embarrass anybody or
put anybody on the spot. But its time for
Negroes to defend themselves.
U
NY 105-8999
DURSO :
HALCOLH X:
DURSC:
HALCOLI K:
DURSO:
MALCCLK X.s . U -ask;
Well shah
the spotcertainly would put
and you are apparent
form alliances but you cannot
any of the
the United
statement.
Well, if they don't, if the major
she United Szazes do; leaders in
to shoz: "-e Negro "she: he has
" -he or c"
pro es: _;sc11, *
iz. .11}-C.- U;.1
following.
What do
abou; re;a1ia;ioa?major civil rights
States going along
Do you really?
_ -P-. ,LIpeople on
ly trying to
imagine
leaders in
t
the
=1
_._I
-ed stale; will be lsade
you neat pro;ecu? Are you
No recaliezion. Pro.ec;. And thi
I say "
Staces recognize ;
Any Jigs 3016058 i
church '" ics wi
Ne;roe: ;o re;alia
Shel? egurch.
eo.. o- go -;Io:-:11
ou; who bombed tne
li.-le black girls
Io L ves;iga;e it
who are ;uil;y and
New ii its crimiza
they zeed to stickV
.L-
IOwith that
civil rights
do somezhing
right to
ights leaders
rs without a
calking
s is why
L4: legal. The laws of the United
he righ; of self-defense.
s 50in; no boab a Negro
*:e right of those -.¢.:_... u I.
;e against
the U
... _.11"_-.._
r~'-
v-.-Y
, inc
Lhe-.13
exec
1 ;o
1.19 1;iteo:he bombers of
S aces Government
ugham, Alabama, and find
3 its t
elves,
ute theirne
fi
T1 O11
say sonebhi
n Sing
When you say Negroes ough to
reyerring so HALCOLI H I presume a
who should do ;his
No no: necessarily
Neéro in ;his coun
dilly dallying of
to the prosecsion
and do it and if i"" no
-Lalb
do i
LCOLK X, busureh and murdered those
for Negroes
the ones
the spot.
mg like that,
t, you're
s the Negro
any so-called
Lry who is fee up over the
the Government when it comes
of Negroes should get together
L canes me to do it, well yes
NY
DURSO:
PEISOLX I
DURSO:
- MALCO 1:: :»:=
DUR3C- =105-99991=
i _ . LI -/",5
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well that kind of talk of course must ;;__answer the next question before I even - >-
pose it, that the present pace of ,integration in this country, which you're _-
not in favor of in the first place, has
been, to say the least, too slow. Are
you in favor of integration?
I am sorry for cutting you off. But don'tever say that the brunt of the burden is onme. The white people in New York City cannot
be for integration because they cannotintegrate. See the mistake that the whitesmake, especially the white liberals, they -
throw that at me as if I am against .integration. LU'contention is that Americais against integration. But they're hypocrites.They pose as being for integration while theypractice segregation, and the problem willnever get solved until some Negro is freeexough to sit down and analyze this and spellis ou; in the face of the white man. Make him
as L; i; and once this fact is seen as afac; then perhaps some honest efforts can be
made ;owards solving the problem.
Hell. lets put the burden on you in this one
sense. You are a segregationist.
No. A separationist.
And again I want to come back to that,exactly how physically would you do this.
would we have, not Harlem, Im not talking
about Harlem in the midst of New York. You
would actually have eventually a geographicalentity of Negroes and one of whites side by
side.
1!
NY 105-8999
MALCOLI-I >1;
DURSO:
MALCOLI X: V. J.
There is already
one of whites.
S;uyvesaHs is an
areas of Queens
bel.s. The wniface .ha¢ as a fact. And I thinkwould be hohes; enough ;o Lell the
are not for integration, thenco;;inue ;o be disillusioned.up ,0 ;his fac; and start being somethingaimself i stead of continuing to dream oftheywo;'
face
for
1- I
0
CO. .r..uni
-or hissomethi
school,
calibre
some.hi
neignbo
civil rJ. -CL
-U,
or in your
on
..-.
a
O4//"1'
gal gv Mia! D
a geographical en;i:y,andHarlem is an example, Bedfordexample; Queens. You have
that are black, solid black
1es have moved out. So lets
if whites
Negro that
the Negro
He'll
when he can si; down in youris your res;aurant,in your hotelschool. He'll start doing something
-4 schools. He'll start doing"o eleva-e the condiaion of his ownhe calibre of his own schools, thef his ow; teachers. He'll start doingI:
B9 Q00
NY 105-8999
DURSO:
MALCOLM X:
DURSO:.1.-.'..n.. '._
There is one other question I would liketo ask you, MALCOLM, and that is this wayyou have or talking and apparently of ratherenjoying your public image as something ofan outlaw, dont you think, realisticallyspeaking as a politician, that this so-calledouslaw image of yours, this go it alonemaverick -hing is less likely to help you
ens; to hurt you? -
bur}I am not interested in help or hurst'as anindividual. I am interested in the freedom,justice, and equality for 22 million blackpeople in this councry who have not been ableto get it the polise way, and who have notbeen able to get it by trying to depict orproject a polite image. Its time for theKegro to get angry and go after what is his by
right by what ever method necessary.
Thank you MALCOLM X. We've bee" talking tonightand its been no secret during the last half hourwith MALCOLM X, who yesterday made headlines bybreaking with the Black Muslim movement ofELIJAH MUHAMMAD and who is going it alone in
this Black Nationalist movement.
J
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c using the
£3».'*u-- " -
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ADIIIIBTRATIVI _
set forth in the enclosed LB usefurnished on 4/3/64, who advised as follows:
told
was not in favor of this because
ere had been
hought
ose at ere
I£II92LlTTLB of
of the things that
t they have had verygood at New Ha Ind on Tuesdlynights write the Iessenger Ind tell himthis. of a
number
desired to start an
until later this month
at which time they willit Ilse few in Bridgeport that had caused t e ro
followers of IA
New York City!
brought the sione
cone to Chiclgo
on April 4, 1964, furnished the followingfurther regarding ELIJAH lUHAIIAD's comments ebout
IAl£OlI,L1TTLl:
suns ammo to1 hat helearned from one source and a e rom n that "he" possibly IALCOLI! is doing some of the most deceitful, distrust-
ful and underha poss
get the
some of them to sign something. IUHAHIAD statedhe is just finding out how sneaky and unfaithful he has been evenwhile eating off the table. IUHAIIAD stated "he" is Just e no good
|.R
51"-
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- CG 100-35635
hypocrite and will no ast lo as A has had his eye onhis for a long tine. shouldhave no mercy on his and I rep e , " o, none at all".
HM
IIUHAIIIAD continued: ilfhe is so corrupt and has beenworking towards his own end all the time and Just won't last long.ALLAH has been seeing him for what he is for a long time. Heis Just thankful that AILAH had him put him down. Even onSavior's Day the spirit was the best it has been in years Just E
~ s a couple of tapes from Bostonthat he ssenger and that on the tape thebrother te hypocrites and weakbrothers. said he went out to
_ investigatbecause the snake was not up there spitting out his venon as milk?E§
aval; that he was
out there and to i and a how he works with theseand works his way up to the believers and shows how they
approach the people and what they say.,4!
Chicago continues to follow pertinent developmentsregarding possible activities oi IALCOLI LITTLE within the'iramework oi various mosques in the N01. Pertinent developmentswill be furnished the Bureau in communication suitable for
dissemination.
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FIB No.
.-
Chicago, Illinois
P92L. 9 , 1964
CORP NTILL
HQTION OF ISLAI
INTERNAL SICURITY - I01
The Ration of Islam and Fruit of Islam have notbeen designated pursuant to Izecutive Order 10450 and are
haracterized in later pages.c
A c nfi informant in early April, 1964,adv ia lea rned that there was diseensiouin the a on o up in Bridgeport, Connecticut, andthat this dissension was caused by some of the membership of
this group who were following lalcolm Little.
A second confidential informnt advised in
September, 1963, Raymond Sharrieff was theSupreme Captain of the Fruit of Islam and as
such was considered to be one of the Rational
Leaders of the Nation of Islam.
The larch 13, 1964, edition of the "ew York
Times", a daily newspaper published in Res York, Iew York,contained an article on Page 20 which reflected that IalcolmX, the former head df the Nation of Islam Iosque in New YorkCity, had broken with the Nation of Islam and with llijah '
Iuhammad on larch 8, 1964, and that on larch 12, 1964, IalcolmI had announced he would form his own mosque in New York City
and it would be a meeting place for hie muslin followers aswell as the base of a pol 11y oriented Black nationalist
<1 ' #20
IITIOI OI IBLLI
On larch 16, 1964,Business Section, Clerk oi Cour ,Rev York, advised that on larch 16, 1964, incorporation paper:were tiled for the Iuslin Ioaqne, Ino.; that Illcoll Littlenae one oi the trueteee oi this corporation, and that theprincipal place of worship Ila to he in the Borough ofIanhattan, Her York County, lei York. .
COHF pgzlhh
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FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATIONFOIPA DELETED PAGE INFORMATION SHEET
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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
FEDERAL BUREAU OI INVESTIGATION
1- II Rlpb.P|aaae Rich
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Chicago, Illinois
a.Im|,|. 1 , 1964
s
' Title mrrxou or isuu
92"__2.
1;-.' E Character nrnmur. saccnrn - not
92
r Reference is made to neaorandun dated
' and captioned as above.
Il All Sources except any listed below! whose_' identities are concealed in referenced communication have "" furnished reliable information in the past.
3
*92 This document contains neither recommendations nor/ 1 si ns of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. It is thecone u od ral Bureau of Investigation and is loanedproperty of the Fe eto your agency; it and its contents are not to be distributed
§§%% outside your agency.
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/F-34-,-"' F-H-vnE.=---.-.-E-.~'.v'w'15 Snore ' V-.1-.l=.i<> '=uu¢.==;:..1ut=.m.=es.t- hat-51.-K5.1-w alien l.lllliAMliiAD ~
The teeemgee el A-Ital] -
i S Ll 3 2 U
And we sent no llelsrngl
but that he should be obeyed
_ by Allah's Oummutl."'
_ Holy Qur-an it
The so-celled American Negroes
have never bed ll Divine Newca-
gcr sent to them before The Hon.
Elijzth Muhammad. Th e re tore,
thcrc will be much opposition to
him from his people who want to
lead and not be followers of oth-
ers. Especially the. middle creel.
the black Christiin Preachers. the
college and university st-identlwho feel eo proud 0! their worldly;
fl.»-1. T ?o__.,e_:
5-.3-_;:. 1, .. -.
I .-:
-W. - 1" t- . R d J '-. e-E 792 1|-'. _ .
~51 - - .' . -=-,2-¢=".. V .
. 92
1!,.-.
I _ .- '92_-t._-; The other Divine teaching. the .ildeneenger eeys. il 3-hi WM hil ides us into the Hereafter Irs Iiiisst Ea iitvtd ' I
This ts the time the B119 ma1-;'31}QT;,rTen' refer, to es the "HZ? I
urrection oi the deed" -nenuelly l
deed or llerll l>°°P1¢7 "'h°"92God wishes to rneke Wile I36 I1
over the nations by H" l"" "°'
end His infinite wisdom. After Ill-
unhg to whet The Hon. Elli
Muhammad was ti"-I'M 57 Muh-
there ls nothing left for another
meesenger to teach ue of sell, God
end the devil. Hessctfl mu
M'ulummed's message to ill f"92'|
mu the Bible um Holy QM-"ti
tor the tut Messenger: motel!
5, u-, bi-1|-lg uo fece to tece with
the knowledge of God end the
devils: that we ml! ""k °"1
choice es to whom we she-ll serve-
s e one who IFWT" "5 "_
E ljnh ltuhemi-ned's teechjn Init ger oi hell tlre. The Holy Q11"
..en warns ue egelnst trnP"U 3 5
in 51111;; lleseengerl, mouth 9"
Bible end Holy Q01-I-N 11°14 9'9
,._ -3 92...f7 ; e _. --
mt nturnutztztn
education and postlons. They think
their: worldly learning and high
position with the enemies of God
will protect them against follow-
ing the Divine Messenger of God.
Wait and see. I
' The 50-Cill Negroes ehould
not be this type at pccrple since
they have the Bible, which ie lull
of prophecies concerning the lateone sinlese. But the Holy Q-"'*n.teaches us tl-let Alleh is sufcientl
u Q judge for His A1305!-16!. U14
cannot he the 1-14¢" °! Dwu
Messengers. Obeylng them ls whet,
Allah wet-ns us to ilk
lalcolrn dleobeycd the AP°'*-1°
of Allah. Melcolm I!!! told bar *1
Meescngee or Allah to kw? tum
until he told him w meek 18111
'11-.5; jnlcolm did not do. S0 I-fl-GP
e nlnety~de¥ P¢I'i°5- 3" "° ""3upaid to Malcolm: You did -not tee?
quigt. Q now I will Welt until 7° !l.92'lQ Bible verlllei nus. {We 111"- rteuel Clipping In Speee Below} _
ALL ml
HEREhl
one
l +.5} _ .. . {J iii. .-* -;.. 2 i-the it-1|-on e _- $_'92,_;3
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H
- 92
92
FW e e e ; |
tlnel-cote peqe. eene el
eevepepee, city ene etete-I
GRMATION coumutn
s ulc ssmeo
BY
6056Sq THE rm: nusenm
__ GHICA GO , ILLINOIS
Date:
amt... '55-'1-51'
hmm ELIJAH MUHATWIAD
EmwBALHLIi. LEAVELL,
Tulle:6,
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1 1. ; c__;:9. hf
92?' * _
1'1 92| .I
92 I
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Cy tli='i'iuaei-lee of Allah. and 1-its 1;
Messenger. E l i 1 s h, Muhammad!. O
Malcolm: aetion tell us that.Ailah'_
and I-Iis Messenger i-I too slow inf
bringing judgment upon the ene-mies of the so-called Negroeu, '.
Malcolm has ordered the so-;
called Ne;-'roes to arm themselveswith shotguns and rifles and shoot-
whcn attacked though the Mee-
senger teaches us that Allahu.-arncd him ngnlnst taking up Lite
enemies arms egin.-at the cnemlel!.Allall'lprdcrI to Messenger Elijah JMuhammad it the same es those"igiven to the Prophets o!,old:.M'oaes had only 1 rod; Noah hLd|
nothing but the word; Lot hadnothing but the Word. end Messem
ger Elijah Muhammad had noth-
ing but the were oi Allah egeirtst
the an-ns of the police. In Detroit.
Michigan, April, 1934, and in Chi-
cago. Illinois. A-pi-ii 2. 1935. Allah
slew the lfollee Captain in the po-
liee court while trying one of
Messenger Muhammad's tellowere.There was .-t display of iiresrrne
h the police against the unarmedi{0'itp of Muslim men and women. 1llah showed who should e-R lied. .iiesisilngtr F-ll.1ah Muh-am
put-I his trust in Allah; Malcolmis going to trust himself. I om
sorry or the poor toot: who reru.-lei
to trust the God oi The Hon. Eli-92
jah Muhammad, and follow Mal-M
eolm to: eel!-victory. Malcolm_eays that -he is going to set up 1:
[Mosque tor t-iimsel! uld rolloweraiI am sure that Malcolm has not
believed The Hon. Elijah Muham-mad to be the Messenger of Allah
in he am. he would be afraid tor .
his future.This Mosque is mentioned in Qle
Holy Qur-an 9:10!-. "They build
the Mosque to cause disunity andto sew dissension uneng the Mus-
llims and to dord shelter to the;OWN um-oz '11-is mm
THIS WORLD ll A1 I-IANDL
WRITE 1'0:
HUHAHLITI XOSQUI No 8
6335 South Greenwood Ave.
China. Illinois eon!lit that he hilt {QT Iii! Ml; HURB1 AND Jon 031°
_ OUR
I
_E_Ia1-IAH I.TA@ LD,' _MESSENGER OF AI;-A-H ':----- J ----.>92|
J . U.
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Filo-Serial Chem. 9" " 9' " -
In-s an-. 6-I 1-rm » .._.-. .. .-
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s-new _ __ i':"""°"i""" _ V :? !"
T 1 All 4'-/F/F AW W_l___ f-»&.,,..x-Zi I, W - {
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aecmmoe °="----
T. Wi:_ i 7 _ ,, ,__ Irwin -.-
§___._____ » L__..__.ALLlNF0RMATlO§|YC@!i92_1AlI§|lEi! dddd U
HEREIN su: ASSIFIEDU __ tmd°_°ATQA&1&%L ~WM
* ugknion j - /
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FD-36 Berna-I8-SUI
' -k Pm
9 -----0 92- 1 Date: -- -
Transmit the iollowinq in __ W e _ join uzicoddp 1 _ _ _ _
*"° -A-1-n'!§ B 9 e w-IDML l 'jWlK i f ?:l'orit!r or [emu ' J:
- -92 ____________________________________________ _ __ 1_ _____ __ _ __ ___
A T0 : Director, FBI _~ 92C A'1'I'Ell'I'I0lI: Civil Rights Section, H
General Investigative Division
SAC, Philadelphia 57-991! P! I _ __ 92
:~- . ' -IA.-J _
; BUURCTS lATIDhL CIVIL RIQEP3 COIWEY-P10 , :_ -- !/; - Yx ' m, PAID H J-IL 7, ' ____'_7 | -II " ' -__ _,________ q-JCIROII:
Banytels 3/13 and 14/614, Philadelphia airtel dated3/17/61$ and Bureau airtel dated 3/21%/64. 1
1 Enclosed herewith for the Bureau are eight copies orp a letterhead memorandum LEM!, with two copies being forwarded % to New Iork and one copy each to Albany, Baltimore, Chicago, iy
and Washington Field. 92 The purpose of this L-HM is to replace the LB]! dated H92 3/1T/61-I, which lacked a characterisaat-ion of IAIJJOLIE I.
92 Copies or this LI-DI are also being furnished to OSI, ,92 OHI, and IIITC, Philadelphia, with a request tha the L!!! of ¢92 3/17/61+ be destroyed. z324;/7/t - geau ¬?!cs.i%! %:ll! '9 Z- c.- . "H - Balzligore Enc.lE 2314! ° om we
- Chicago Enc.-1! RH!M é- Ievark Enc.-1! Ru
T» - 195-89991 -1/aahingtcm Field Eno.-1! RI smcm _1 - Philadelphia 57-991! Q
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UNITED snrrns nnmnrmsur or wsncn
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lhlqbmnnlitl"""* April 3, 19614
Titll: NATIONAL CIVIL RIGHTS
GONVENTIOR, CHESTER, PL.,
MARCH 14, 1951
Reference: Letterhead memorendum deted endoeptioned ea above; et Philadel-
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DEFENSE QROUP WITHOUT CLAY_..._!..
mil-Ia.E12!._ By ART SEARS JR. . _-The Negro ls lustified in doing whatever is necessary toprotect himself , declared ex-Black Muslim leader MalcolmX. "That means WHATEVER is necessary. Malcolm aa-
serted in an exclusive interview with Jrr.His explanation came following the announcement. thathe planned to head a new black nationalistic organizationdesigned to uplift Negroes and to aid them in their questfor equality, despite the tact that he still feels that themain Negro problem cannot be solved" because it is moral
and mental. Malcolm said the new organization would probably hecalled "The Muslim Mosque. Inc." or "'l'he Mosque O1Islam. Inc.," and will be religiously-based and foster blacknationalism politically. While similar in many respects tothe Black Muslims. the new organization will have certainunique aspects including plans to work with establishedcivil rights groups where we can agree on any commonobjectives. In a question-answer torrn. Malcolm had the 'explanations about his newly-conceived organization:Q--How large will your organization be?A-We're after 22 million so-called Negroes.Q--What sort of structure will it have, such as sto emf
headquarters?A-That will be spelled out at a later date. I don't thinkthat the organizational structure will ever be revealed to
the public. -
Q-Will you solicit funds?A-All of that is in the future. Denitely. however. anyreligious organization solicits funds and we will seek thebacking of the entire community because our objectiveswill be designed Ior the betterment oi the entire com-
munity..1 i
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ALL mroar ATl0"i c inHEREIN sh L1lSSl%|E|£JNEDQ-How long will it take to establish your basic working D
orgaui':ot:'on?A--Well, I was involved in the establishment and orBY M@é/
gaqization of almost every Mosque the Honorable F-lijal-L." ' lviunammad has above No. 10, I believe. So. I have some
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idea of what lt takes to get a group of people together ;and_to get them properly organized. I think that ll. will be doneovernight because our people in this country are just that
ready.
O-Despite your pronouncements. don't you feel that mem-
bers 0] the Muslims will lollow you?A-My hope is that they remain under the spiritualguidance and the organizational leaderslilp of the Honor-able Elijah Muhammad. I have no intention whatsoever ofinuencing any kind oz split or rivalry between us and the
followers of the Honorable Eliiah Muhaminad. My inten-
tions are to work among the non-Muslim Negroes.Q-Will this bring about o name change or will you con-
tinue to use Malcolm X?A-I'll be Malcolm X. I like that. I believe in what Mr.
Muhammad teaches, that ls that "K" represents the un-
known and that Negroes in this country don't know whothey are. I still don't. know who I am, so I'll use "X."
Q--What is your relationship with Cassius Clay?A-He and I are brothers. We're probably very goodi 2' '5 ' - _ -_
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'_ --Says Negroes liust llrll ll Needed Tu Pruleci Selfpersonal riends. I admire him and I respect him, not onlyfor his physical ability as heavyweight champion of theworld but lor his untapped intellectual and spiritual po-
tential.Q-Will he be with you in the new organization?A-No. My advice to Brother Cassius would be not tnbecome involved in any kind oi dispute or misunderstand-ing that will in any way be detrimental to hil positiveimage as heavyweight champion oi the world.Q--How far do you visualize your organization going inactive self-defense of Negroes against the white man?: A-The very fact that you say against the white manshows that you realize that he is the opponent. I think thatwhite people in this country should be made to realize thatif something isn't done to bring an immediate halt to theoppression and brutality that is being inicted uponNegroes, than the Negro should be considered justified indoing whatever is necessary to proteethirnsell. That rneanlWHATEVER is necessary to protect himself. He shouldn'tinitiate any aggressive action, but he is within his right:--sell-defense is defendable in any court oi law.Q-You were quoted as saying that you visualize this neworganization as helping Negroes and civil rights group:wherever requested. You added. however, that the "mainNegro problem cannot be solved." Please explain.A-It's moral and mental. The vices that our people areaddicted to have actually destroyed the moral fiber oi theNegro community which has had the chain reaction effectoi lowering the morals so that the Negro now doesn't evenhave the incentive to go to school to become technicallyequipped to even function in a highly developed society,so, you have to start right at the basis of what is destroyingthe Negroes morals and incentive. And that is the viceswhich run rampant in the Negro community. Drug addic-tion, alcoholism that lead to the breaking up of the homeand destruction or the family unit. All or this has to beattacked. And the religion oi Islam, as taught by the__"Honorable Elijah Muhammad, gets right to the root or that.
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to that agency ies! for review and direct response to you.
Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency ies!. You will be
advised by the FBI as to the releasability of this information following our consultation
with the other agency ies!.
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t . 1 D
3/30/en
AIRTEL
T0: DIRECTOR, FBI 00-11111765!
FROM: SAC , HEW YORK 00-152759!
SUBJECT: MUSLIM HOSQUE, INCORPORATED
IS-MISCELLANEOUS
0:NY!
Re HY cclccype dated 3/29/61¢.
Enclosed herewith tor the Bureau are rive !copies or a um concerning the Mm open rally held inNYC on 3/29/61¢, at which mnccm mmz cpoke.
n The confidential source is
,an 5331*1 It is noted that a review ct the 3/30/611, editionof "The New York Times" revealed no article on or mention
of the HMI open rally on 3/29/611.
moawmou coumusu1' ¢+LER%92u92 uu LASS92F92EDnarziizig. -B*8-¥1¢i1£i 7 V
3-Bureau Encls. 5!<1»New York 05-8999! mmom Lmm! £12!
T-New York19/ tgmvb 1'_<2@_-< ;4//ED.
SEE!
/,1 1 1-Supervi sor #1412 _ _rFBI - NEW vnm-'
@' . I J.
New York, New York
March 30, 196
Muslin Mosque, lnorporstedInternal Security - Miscellaneous
A confidential source, who has furnished reliableinformation in the past, advised on March 29, 1964, thaton that date the Muslim Mosque, Incorporated MI!, heldan open rally fro 8:00 p.m. to 10:20 p.n., in theAudugon Ballroom, Broadway and 167th Street, New York,
New ork.
G1 llarch 12, 19614, Malcolm X Little publiclyannounced the formation or Ruslin Hosque,Incorporated, the philosophy of which will be
black nationalism
According to this source the featured speakerwas Malcolm X Little, founder and leader of the MMI,who spoke on the subject "Ballots or Bullets". In hisspeech Malcolm I urged all Negroes to register to vote,and suggested that those negroes who do not register shouldbe "run out or town". He gave no voting instructions at thistime. Malcolm X also characterized as tools thoseNegro American soldiers fighting and dying for white
American in Viet Nam.
Also in his speech Malcolm X stressed thl ultimategoal or the UNI which is the return or all Negroes toAfrica. He also announced that he plans to make a trip toAfrica in the future, but no date was given.
Bureau 00-1H-1176?!1.;-New York £105-6999 mmom LITTLE! 12!1-New York 1oo-152759! as doc 1-n * cc "1 1= rmther £1 Th' _.1. "1. 1: " 5. _ ._.'_ '¢"'*:0n".."~'. 2- - .- ~ 1:o:92="v.92sions
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colm I was the spe¢ker.
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Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency ies!. You will be
advised by the FBI as to the releasability of this information following our consultation
with the other agency/ ies!.
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Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency/ ies!. You will be
advised by the I-BI as to the releasability of this information following our consultation
with the other agenc!/ ies!.
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Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency ies!. You will be
advised by the FBI as to the releasability of this information following our consultation
with the other agency ies!.
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to that agencyes! for review and direct response to you.
with the other agency ies!.Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency ies!. You will be
advised by the FBI as to the releasability of this information following our consultation
Page s! withheld for the following reason s!:___ __: f ______ _____ ___
E] For your information: ._ i _ _ *_ _ _7__ _ it _ __ ___y__ _ __. ___
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. . _ J-s""- .~-.~.'1° = esc, nzw tom 05-B999! --"._ "= 3-16 1=fl;*;;-§""----.»-l .'_.'.'. .-" . 1-, _.:_"°" »m2> *~%-he ~
SUBJECT mwom-1 1:. LITTLE, ekeIs - mi i
On 3-12-6h, subject held e press conference in the TeeetrySuite or the Perk Sheraton Hotel, tn Ave. & 55th st., H6,beginning at 11:00 am. 1 i-L8|
51¢
GEcaptionedDuring the course of the conference, mimeograph copiesof several items were made available to the press, end were
obtained. These items were:.r
1! Statement to press by LITTLE on 3-8-6h. " ~ I2! Text of telegram to ELIJAH nuruu-nun from BITTLE on 3-11-61;.3! Text of statement to press made at the opening of theabove press conference on 3-12-6h.Copies of item 1 and 2 shove, ere being placed in the 1A »~rile or subject. Copies of items 1, 2 and 3 above are being yplaced in the IA file oi uusun uosqnn, 1nc., mt loo-152759.
1- 100-152759 Muslim Mosque, Inc.! M12! £13105-6999 i
ILL rwromwmow cowL1 HEREW '5; _:--: 3 AINEDF DATE L.92.S|f|ED.._B| .
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Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency ies!. You will be
advised by the FBI as to the releasability of this information
with the other agency ies!.
Page s! withheld for the following reason s!:___ _ _following our consultation
For your information: Lit _ _ ______ g_,
The following number is to be used for reference regarding these pages:
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available for release to you.
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" 0 Q " Q 1 ha... 112-1: g0:6znA?.i¢119Exgc'>:1a::st101gntIwpa£ttixzzt the schedule; up-on mllinof the mplin i-bsqwa,moozzxarated £626-II was held ti-1:: Andaman 31111013,::;;n:::3w.:e.;; and tn abmet, thw Ya:-£2, New York, true:8:10 p.m. to 10:00 pan. an 1p2"...1 5, 1964. ma min
qaeakaer was Malcolm I. .
' On I~".:::-clx 12, 19511, Hnlcralm I Littlepublicly u-:rnu.nced the fomct-ism cl
i:.:.aJ.*..n :72.-aqua, maorpombed, theplxilosophy of which 92z.i.1J. be blast
nzstionslima.
This source uh-ined thatthe mi-Jcct of ilnan Riglrts rad C1
of a-;>pm::.umte1-3 500 personsI-zaluojuz I-Z Luger! all He:;92>¢n to mxi:gglitiem, ccoznnic and nocial irrlezm.-uicmeeme of his e;>cechwa.B"h1ac!»:n.:¢1ona]iB=z-citcr";.t,~:.--".. time 1%-KI aim of carolcte separation mias the 0:111; solution $0 ii-lib Lbjlb pnoblen in the Uhitd$=a*.;¢:.. in also accused the Covcrrncxlb ed genocide anntuac.'-o:.:, citirzg the 1;m.&11!'lE, or licgzoon dam t§u1oaL'}1{em-1 11:; cxidczzco or this. I1-naolm X alashe need or Hcgrocs to control their om pol: icnl mrnmcs,aruéigged ti:-an to accocminh this by 2-eg1::ta:'L1;; and
vo . 9 -
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A thin! cnmiam-¢i.a1 aoume in has£"..::'11.£.c£1c>c1 ml1.a.Lle 1.-m;_mz1°=1 an thepast, adviaed on m.."c.1 u, 1959, thai;Jim I=2?.11-OF ma ox-;;e.n.£.zar of the Ba-rlen
C? Cl-5 Of H81?-h; 13$!:
rim Pcbma:-y 29, 1%; c.-ditgion 01 tholieu York licmld '1"I2.b.n1c_," a daily nrrurgmperpuizlll-I05 in lbw Yczt, In-I York, cont-,air:ad
arm article on paw 9, dataJ.1ne6 Ramon,
1b:-tn ca-wanna:
am» a.r'tic.1c reflected that Hrs. 91115.0Ii!-B of Hen Yo:'l:c11:;?, ma mntannadto lo to £0 years in .'S1=;>c:r.92._or court, ibmzuo,Ibrth carouna, 1o11rm.L'?°the eomrlctinnof1nz~m1dtm~ceoth:r.*a rtmof u. vtxlta coup10,u.£'b0t' an into:-ran<3.1z:;ur1:.111c-0 in 13.11. 9-.a:b0'a evidencei.'1r3..c:n1'-ed em was the I-imgleacbt of the
m Banach 18, 1965, a :E'mn'th confidential1:011.-co, who has Iuminlnd z1e1.i.a1:.1B nzozmatiun.m.mc pant, advised that Bra. wane ma
I-zailory was mm an banal. '
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__,__-lalcolm A i
Ignores
" Brotherl. By JAMES BOOKER
'- Accused by his own,brother and leaders of the
Black Muslims of being a
traitor and a "Judas,"
Malcolm X this week
shrugged oti the charges.
asserting that the accusa-
tions are elvidence that
somewhere on the insidelot the g r o u p they're,worried." 92
lt Many Muslim! are comingwith us. both in-New York andother cities. and overtures arebeinl. made to me to establish mosques in other cities," Mal-colm told the Amsterdam News.5 Malcolm: brother. who elk:-1ledly introduced him into the"lleclt Muslim Movement. dc-l{nounced his brother as tollow-lin: a dangerous course whichlparallels those set by Br921l1I8.lJudas, Benedict Arnold. and om-lerr who betrlyed the relationship.between them and their leaderl."__ The brother. P' ter 'l mosques in-;ihree Michigan citicg ziccussd
"rcsc:ii.m:i:t" in set-
tin-, up the iicw group. and hinted]
that he mi;.:: be sufIc'.'i.".; from
a mental illness.
As Phiihcrt was blasting his
brother, the !lu.slims ncwspa-lper, in two special articles ihisl
_u.-eek bitterly attacked Malcolm
lo! Splitting because he 9292':mted=
to replace El:ia2-92 Muhammad as
leader oi Lllu Black .921-.;=lims.
| Mcanuiiile I-lalcoim, 92'-1:0 hast
launched on a spc;.l:i~.'.g tour oi
several cities, p:t.. . to laancli;
a massive rc::s;;'a-..o:i drive in.H:1:'lcm i92'it!'.;:92. the next few9292c-.'. ".t- ~ . . c92'e:!' black
iace behind c92"..;-" door 15 :cgis-
tcred."; Addressing; .. :|{'0 than 1.000persons at a r..l'.3.' 13:1 Sunday
at the Aildabon Ballroom. Mal-:colm s:.lL1 that Tu has already
lrecc;92't.l :..<su;.'i;i.t-s oi coopera-ition from student tramps through-iout ilic co-_-r".::'_92' U 'n-I_i in the
rcgis:1'ati.i:92 drive. Any Negro 92'.'l1n c:n."sn'1. have
the sense of re.=po'!.=i'.> '.i'.>' to getregistered should no !.lf|92'td out
town." Malcolm .o1d the cheer-
irl: c:'c,9292'd,linlcolm .'il=o indicated that on"
;- 1!;.-is "E his visit to the U.S.
n:.i.~ l.-.5. in-:.l".. he is planning
9292shoi_ild be no filibuster when the
ucd. he declared " '_"'_
| _ I,in n.i-.--f..r-nun-a.»_i......o e -1' ir 1 -. -a -Am - {Lu-nt§,-I --napalm--vhn 1-Vd'92~692-L..-.¢l-tn. _,,_,q_,,,-15 ,_,-|;h_A~._'a_ éi.-,_ ___ _ : ; r ag'_;:~;_::W hv
..._ _-.___.__.-b_-
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CLIPPIBTG FROM THE
NY_ _ _
EDIT ION
1w_ 71 . a-
PAGE
FORWARDED BY NY DIVISION
NOT FORWARDED BY HY DIVISION___l/
'ALL lNFURW92Tl0N CONTNNEDHERE92N92 U B SSlFlED'11 ni-__.~.:i:za ";:'.'. the unccmtrollablct-laments in i.'.c country 1'02 8. ew Ptlarch on Wasliinginn if thcl 3, ?{Senate i'i.ii:u.=tcrs on the civillri'.'.'.1:_< bill after my 1. TherelS of .92c{'iocs are in- ? ?._ V
St-IRlALIZE.ll
is.--l9'54 FBI - NEW YORK" '
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AIRIE REISIBRE
to: oznncroa, rat 00-aa11as!
rnou= sac, uxu voax zoo-152159!
SUBIWI: IIJSLIH EDSQUE, Im-
I5 ' HISCEIJANEGIS
O0: NY!
Enclosed horcwich £0: tho Buraau an 5 ¢0plIl 0! I
LHH relative to the appearance of H921£0LH K LEITLB before thoB7o¢;k1yn Methodist niniatora Association Ln Brooklyn, NY, on
lo 2 6-lo.
[BUREAU 00-hhl765! Eac1. 5! Ru!¢;;= NY 105-sees MALCOLM x LETTLE! b12!
uv 100-152159 n12!
t2§=.m #412! mronmgruogl CONTAINED. su'cLss|nEo ouAT£1Za5Ai Bvzzéfr/45112//£2
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. ..-7;'=5i.- ,-- < L- O .
,' °t <; .1'. ..1 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OP JUSTICE
.-92 1,; ~.,1.I3 rnnnan. nunmu or mvwrxcrrxoxc
-. .-,.f,;_";f_""""" "" new York, aw lot-k100-8bl765 Aprll a, 1965
Rn: ll-loll! lblquo, mcorpratolInternal Security - I-lllcolloaolll-ll
tho April 3, 1961», edition oi "Ibo Hal York limo",a dolly newspaper publlohod lo new York, In York, cootalnodanarliclltllpagt 23 cqacorntniatolkbylnlslmlon April 2, 1961», baton A0 nlal-ltorl of tho ltoolilyo lhthodlotnlnlataro Auoclatlon at tho John inlloy lbchodiit church,260 Quincy strut, Brooklyn, not York.
On an-ch 12, 1961», lhlooln XLittle publicly gn:l092l92G.d tho {orationoi 1-mlln uoaquo, Inc., tho philosophy oiwhich will on black natlonallll.
In hi-0 talk botorc thii lntogtatql group at thllrregular monthly broakhlt motlng, lhlooll I lndicatod ho wouldfollow the method ot ovmgolzlnt Bllly Gnhll by prcbing tblgospel oi black natlocnllsn to uogrooa wtcbout asking thanto join his organization, but rattan: urging than to join anyumzmg civil right! organization. llo stated that tho Myo£ the Negro tux.-olog tho other chock lo wot, and alibi:"WhI.'B ths govlrnnlt will not Protect tho iqvo, choy amt howilling to protect thosllolvoh ' ' '
This document contains mitts: ncmunondtlonlno: conclusions oi tho I'll. It lo the proportyoi the Fllondl loanodtoyourcgmcyg ltcodlta contcntl on not to bo dist;-i.but0d outaldoyour agonoy. '61¢ ,_ c
ALL 92NF3RMAT920N commuao A , "i-"R'r'.l.'¢' '3 i92..1r92"*92r'92ED A-//-""'B;JLzlQ' Q22! ..'|;§i,5abj3%/.aZ1<»£é ~*'
r-19% - /4>'-"/
1, . QJO
Ito: motto tboquo, IncorporatedInto:-not Sacuttty - Mtooolmnooul
Malcolm X tucthoc otatod that ho bod no conildontoin tho "logality or morality oi tho vhito Ion", but ho didhowo coniidoco in tho white man's "lntolligonoo to do lothlng
about tho Negro oituatio in America."
Bo also otatod that ho plonnod to call a oontoronoooi oil civil tights groups in Auguot, and hoped at that tinoto "organizo a political party or on orn to got rooultl in
196%."
- 3 -
ro-aso 14-1-an l ._r *l'*"
[Hlunl Clipping In §pa¢o U013!!i
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Tells Clorics He'll Preach
as Billy Graham Does
By wmus arm-'1'-"ix
l Malcolm X, the insurgent
llllriek Muslim leader, said yes-
lterdrty that he would preachlthe gospel oi Black National-
ism in the some mariner that
the eV:iri,:-list Billy Graham
|spre:1ds the gospel 0! Christ. E
I Malcolm spoke before 40-
members. of the Brooklyn
!Methodi;.t Ministers Association
!at the John Wesley Methodist
Church, 260 Quincy Street. I| I am taking my e1ir- irem
methods used by Billy i:.- em
to preach the eosrel or C;.l.~'.,"
the Negro toe: the mi. .1-:1:--d
lgroiip. I will prcru.-._ the
igospel of T'l!::tk Nnlli.ri-"tli.~!'i'i
IE0 Negroes wiI.r-uL I151-'..: _f t!- ill
;o join my oz-.:.92.niz;itii..i_ but
father urging t..cin to go 0u.|llltid join ri:.;.- existing ci92'i.ltights or_:rir.i...i'..on." LAsked hy a white ministo,
whether lie tliought th0r:.- vi-er.
any rjnod white people, Malcolm
X rt_ lied: "I do not soy there
am nu ;~inr-ere white people.
but rritiier Liiat I haven't met
any."
'.-lust Protect Themselves
He told the ministers that
the day when the Negro turned
the other cheek was over.
"Where the government will
not protect the Negro, they
must be willing to protect
lUlCri|$CIVC5," he said.
1 Mziicolm appeared before the
elergymen at their regular
monthly hrezilcfztst meeting. The
ministers as;-ociation-is headedlby the Rev. .l.:mos Z92IcGr:i92v.
The Birirk Muslim told the
ministers ii..it 1.0 was calling
A eonleri .. i- .11" ::i<l August of
Unit civil r. -ht; ___:-.wu]is. He hopes
l.-it that time to "organize a
politii-:'.l :i_i-i_92- or an rirniy to
gut rcsiiits iii 1£=i.l,"'2te saldl
pl ll.EiLs$L:.: ll PLl.llS -
- t I have. no tonfldenrn in u
legality or mor.-iiity or the
white man." Male->l.'n it-one on,
|"but I do h.-we cor.-'ittt.:ee in his
llrilr-liigenee to do ioinetliing
about the Negroes sit uatlon in
1 Meanwhile leaders of the
lfor Integrated Se1.00l:;, headed
thy the Rev. Dr. Milton A. Ga-
llami.-ion, will meet tonight in
::in eifort to erase disscrision in
ltheir ranks. .'
l Otfieirils from the National
Association for the Advance-'
mt-nt of Colored. People end the
Congress of Racial Equality-
have agreed to attend.
. Itetmlon Expected .
l The national officers or the:lN.A..A.C.P. and CORE support-I
Ted the rst boyeott of the,
tsrhool system c".!li-:1 by Dr?:G:il.i:'nison but rleciiizt-.l to sup-i
it oi-t the second. _
l Dr. Galamison e>;{»-'~r-is to-1'
,.l;'ht' t' 1' l ..-is. thd,'|:wo n1ii'$ §§i"$l:.§.--:i@=§i uni[oer his umm-l1.i C.-"ll rightsgroup 9292'IU'l0Ut rtlt-"viz": the or-I
gIlI'l]lZi'L;.gOl1LfpprQ.iCIll. f|!l1lGSOphYlor ea rs l .I Mrs. Thelma Johnson, coordl-l
-nator of the Harlem Pa:-ents|Committee and executive see-ijretary of dthe Citywide Com-|lmittee, sai :l Speaking for both oi the!l
groups, I assure you that we!will not realign or :1;er our!
committee or its leadership in
anyway."
1 Mrs. Johnson said the com-i
mlttee would CC-1'll.ll.!l0 to wel-
come the support of i92£u.lcoln'i X.
l "We will not reject the as-
sistance and support of anyone,
as long as they remain nonvio-
zlent," she said. .
l The special unity me<-ting: will
be held at s Poi. i.-i the Com-
munity Church ol l92'ew York,40'Ea.st35£h Street "' "America. -
splintered Citywide Camniittee.C T
l [lnalcutl ween 11"" °'|92lwlpI|!ll¢ CH1 an .u'."
;_3_ ital-1 YORK ':'m:-:s
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Author:
Editor:
ruin: MALCOLM LITTLE
l UNDER INVEST] GATIUN
t Cl-iarcclnlt
l or
Clunolllcolion:
. sukmliq o"|CG.%é 7
* [cw -¥i97-?§
'AL_L |NFO_RMATl0?l commute ;;§1?ff§fu_
l5l:RElii S 'NiJLASSlFlED
DATE .9
92 . d. I!.
515
9°4/2/Bl
IIITIL
10: nus:-non, rm 00-441-ma!
IIOI3 8&3, CHICJOO 00-41040!
IUBJICTI IUBLII IOUQUI, IIC.
I8-1: IICIAL IATTRBS
no: III YORK
Be Chicago te1 dated 3/29/64, eottina torth reeultaof a preee conterence ae contained in the "Chicago tribune"at that dateg, which wae held by umoui X on 3/28/M, ta
h1c.°e
la tel etated that IMLIOLII X aeeerted he wae nia-quoted in the preea when he urged liegrooa to buy ritlea at thetime oi oi-nation of the Black Rational Group and claimed helaid that ICIJQOOI ehould have ritlee to defend theneelvee in
0 the thoee
tion confide ially to an
and
IAUZOIJ I wae not epnciiically aahed at the conferencewhether or not he recommended Io:-nation or "rie ciuhe orwhether he recoeeonda llegroee carrying ries in dearonetrationa.Be eaid that eel!-deieneo ie not violence and that he believed
I _ '1rilgylnon violence , which neant that ae long ee violence wee
2- :-"--::,:"> £1 105-8999! tnuucoun z! fr"/
I - C icago - zoo-sass! mt! 0
CE-8 :lIl
" ,.. 'ALLlNFORMAT!021CONTAMED>7 HERElNl u ~.'..Assmeo-' E DATE 3Yi/5 152' ?
92%______..,_...-7
J. 1
n92 1
00 100-41040
not being need against the lop-o, then the Iegro lhould
not nee violence, but it the vhitea nee violence apihetthe Iegroee, then the leg:-oee are entitled to nee violence
in return. =
IAICOLI aleo atated that it vae too early to tnov
hoe nuoh of e Iolloving he haa and that he napecte to
obtain anpport et neebera of varioua leg:-o groupe andindividnale including nenhere oi the Black Iaelina. le
added he atill conaidered hineel! to be a Hallie; hovever,did not elaborate in that roped. He atated that ea or
the tine of the preaa cuterence, he had no tollovin: in
Chicago.
It ie noted that the reeulte of the abovo Iontionod
prone conference have previously been I92l92I1t1.Od to the
Bureau in Ion mitable dieaenination.
"'1 --- - f e* 1 < T _ . _ . _ -
ro-asou-1.52: 92.
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Bo;/co"i"E'el's k
Plan to Bar t
llflalcolin l l
By wonnv 141.1-zm
Of the World-Trlrlrnm SM
Negro civil rights leaders plotting the school boy-,colts plan to reject the support of Malcolm X, it was
learned today.The leader of the Black Nationalists will be PEPU1cliated reportedly because grass roots members in thatcivil rights drive believe he is hurting their case_ itIt was also unrlerstoodl * W in * tthat the Rev Mmnn A viewed as a threat to the pres-. ' . tige and power of existing elvilt-alarmson, controversial 5[!_9at'- - 5head ol' the Citywide Commit-Hams groups however A _ _'unity meeline was called Ior'tee lor Integrated Schools, V-as the press ='pm_pom_ at re!grouping and presenting altunitecl mm. ,lAs part ol this new iron [
Mr. Galamison reportedly ha .
lbeen persuaded to relinquis-llready to step down as sole di~
rector oi the campaign.
Meeting "lnmorro92v
These developments are
scheduled to lake place tomor-
row night at a special meeting:0! rlnhts lead:-rs at the Com-Sinai? :_}g°cn}:°;:£r H1 ha9292- Itlnily Church ol New York, F ° "_ *-1 40 E_ 35"] 3; it Persuaded to Re-UniteIn recent weeks there hast It was understood that mem-ilhbeen widespread concern overbers ol CORE. NAACP, Har-92_ Mr. Galarnisorfs unexpected al- lem Parents Committee and.92_ lance with ltlalcolm X and %the Parents Workshop lot."92 ep. Adam Clayton PowelI.lEIquality Mr. Galamison's ownR his trio emerged 11-om the last igroupi prevailed upon the out-1. _liChDOl boycott as a potential spoken minister to re-unitewgr, -_ , _ with them for the sake oi in-
'lhe new trlumvirate ls teeratlon.l Several rights groups didP tnot join in the second schooltD ~b0_92'e0tl because they reportndlyl' lobjccted to Mr. Galai-nisons ap--lparent refusal - up to that
time to share the leadership
I'[|l'tS.l Mr. Galrtmisnn could not bereached for comment. E
i it was understood the rightsleairlcrs will assume a "hands!_ lo! ' policy towards Bayard.
Rustin. director ot the March
ton Wash_ineton. and Powell.,
mg #I"rah_p Harlem Congress-Il. = - It tll
t
l_ 4_ _ gt _ _, _
lllrmlcato puql, name 0|
nowlpupir, cily and Itulnt
t
t_L_ new YORK woacn
TELEGRAH AND THE so
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Dene:
Edition:*~"'=~"= woomr KLEIN
t*=="'="= Bremen D. rem
"" "=RACIAL SITUATIONS
l
l Churqtlolt
OI
C1uosllicu92l0n:BU
_5ul3mHHnq Olllfll i M _
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Malcolm X-*, .
Says Freedom i
Price ls Blood *
- Br MEL JUFFII 4 l
In-tee cl freedom hi
blood and ll blood frightens:
yea, .tben. freedom Jrigbteml
I0!-"
_- While neatly-dressed "body-
|nands"eteod at attention ear
his apeakefs platform, Black
Nationalist leader Malcolm I
delivered this message to a_
eheering crowd oi 500 last-night
in Harlem: Audubon Ballroom, .
Bmadwll and W. 166th st. 3Malcolm. who has ureed NC'é
Irma to arm "in sei1-deiense."i-
ient a Step further. urgingBlark Nationalists to stud! the!
example oi terrorist groups tnatl
specialised in assassination.
bombings and armed robbery.
When Israel was gelling it!
Independence. Malcolm lee-ix
lured hie audience in the hall- --
llcd ballroom. it had a mod-1'
crate group called Haganahat was Iettln; nothing. H
It was the lrnua and Stern|Gan: terrorist that brought]a ut everything. Conservativ 'and $eratu don! get 110-:
FM 3/29
/the mid-1048. the51: -4:: and Irguniete rm"-
a reign of terror llllmi Q19
British and Arabs in an ex-
tremist off-shoot of Israel:
iigzbt for independence. The
ohiet difference in their tactics
ya; the Islun custom of warn-ing victims before aettint 0!!
bomha.
Malcolm leveled his verbal
guns at a numbe or targets. He
termed whites blue-eyed hym-
I:lltes" and Police Comrnr. Munpny "a devil." I
BLASTS RIGHTS GROUPS, f
He bitterly denounced Eliiaii
ul:a.mmed's Nation of I8-|
," ant castigated Nerro civil;
ht: zrounc. which seek inte-i
nation as opposed to his bro-i
gram for "separation."Malcolm adviser his listeners]
-who Irequently chanted.|
That: rilhti that he
couldn't be completely candid
with them because ot the pres-
ence ol newspaper reporters.
whom he characterized asi
"wolves."
The ousted Black Muslim
confided:
'l'here'I a whole let more I
mean that I don! lay."
He concluded his 2%-hourl
epeeeh by saying:
- Let's keep Jeane out of here.
Let: keep Abraham out. But
maybe Moses is all right. He at
least laid: An eye for
Ind-rtlth for a tooth. _
ail-- P:.i=,;<-_..-::;e¢=L=.-.<..~r.'.;...~;>.-.=.e-.»:.;.@-.===: - -- -' :5-. " 0.-1'' . L -e i 1.!~ <9 ~
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iMalcolm X, the iniiltant BlackNationalm leader who is org-
ing Negroes to Iorm ritie clubs
tor their own defense, last night
toid a cheering Harlem raiiy
that the Ballot Ls an powerlui
as the bullet."
Sptlking betore an Easter
night gathering or nearly 1,000persons at the Audubon Bali-
room, 166th St. and Broadway.
the Ion-ner top propagandist tor
the Black Mtsiirna promised a
aaiive voter Yegilitiilion drive
monk the c1ty'a Negro_popu1a-
on.
Mal-coirn aaid he had already
received aaatu-ancoa of coopera-
1throughout the country to help map out" Harlem and lee 1-I'll! 92~
"every black {ace behind every
door" is registered to Vote.
Predicting the meet intensive
voter registration drive In HI!-
iem'd history, Malcolm deciarettthat any Negro who desn't have.the "pence oi responsibility toget registered should be movedmtitoitowll. -. . '
Though ernohaslng oliizicalaction rather than violence,
there was no softening of theptone or his remarks about thewhite mane-how he called at
ut his most bitter shaits we '
served for the white iiber ,
who. he said. had been kee
log us barking up the wrong
direction."
Malcolm said that the white
liberal. up to now, had" con~
trolled the civil rights struggle"
ahd had induced the Negro clvtl
rights leader-a to "settle lot"
crumbs." Hie audience interject.
ed, That: right, and stamped
their feet app:-ovlngly u M11.
,umn_uummmn W¢.pqF
tor "310-yea:-a bl .slave labor contributed to the econ_omy'o@
_» Wt gt QUNT NNEDM W ""'P:T:?...>s92¥92£0who. ne point an "outright devii."1t
92 9292
92- - 92. " i
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tion from 'atudent ¢roupa,!T.
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1
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eouapepae, city and atete.!
HEW YORK POST
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',.,, '_._ §,.__ _ _pv B_URLEiGii HINE5, m._.@__ 7"; 1 spokesman tor the Chicago based Black" ed as "ioolislliess" the widely circulated non;_- a plot within the Muslim sect to murder l~ialcoi:_;._-I___:f _,:-ffto his split with the group. 55 . '- _-.~.-;.._ -_|__,.';=-,E__§:.,,..r;s:_-res. Malcolm X had said: "ii truth wasn't st:-cries-athood, i would have been murdered in i-'ehruary._'; !i-- -"1-idthat he was saved because his former iolluwers inf.fi'_e~{} gr:-Mosque No. I "had heard me represent and deh_EnT- .";.L_I_I:1-_ . _" Alr-
*' i hammad tor too ion: tor them in swallow lies." " ""° -" " * ""
*"*tary of the Muslims, said
.§'
Q .
I 1- .<1,"
-
...
_, 1'
rr-. --.---. J1,we -
FJohn Ali, national secre.- '1
that such tail was "foob-
lsliness" andwas the"think-
oi little minds."-
"Great minds rise above
S h ioolishness," said Mr.
. "We don't go around
tllkinl about killing people
because we do not advocate
force in any way. And we -
don't have anything to do
with anyone who deviates
irom this heiici." "
Mr. Ali said his leader,
Eliiah Muhammad, was in
Phoenix, Ariz., and appa-
reniiy hadn't heard oi Mal-
colm's latest pronounce-
ments. -' ,, .-
Malcolm named a Captain
Joseiib and anassistant min-
ister Henry It in relation to
t he called a plot to92
o st him from the Muslims. .
'_'l never left the Muslim -
ovemeni on mi own," he -
said. "Those who envied my
increasing successes con-
spired together to iorce me.| . ,Tm, H. H -.. ,- -2 ..,. _.,:- 92-. '1-'-"-1'?" -'-"~'
Malcolm saidY rk Muslimshndl "om-
p ining heavily ag i 3..
-tam Joseph for 3':-92"s. in
said he made a "qul:»i" :'o-
quest to
November
.mova1 as
tains can
Z irom theChicago in cu}:
Captain. _ _ Cap-only be r-rmove
Chicago oiiice.!
"I was told to wait until Mi.
uhammad came to New
ork inDecember, !_- ten
ecemher 3 it was I who
as suspended, silenc and
evenimlly removed.1'~-- - _-
Mr. All said that captain
Joseph and assistant Min-
ister Henry X are still with
- the New York Mosque," as
are ail the other New Yorkmembers. ' ' ' t_-'*.
Mr. Ali, who just return-'
ed iroman east coast visit-92' '_-a
[or Joesph: re- fn '
.__'L
_ 1: .
Y
j £.;g__um ail is Weiililtil; ii
i
out. Alter announcing to 7- '
' the Muslims at Mosque NO. '
'I_that 1 would be back in
90 days ii isuhmiiiedgraco-
fully to my suspension, Cap-
tain Joseph teamed with the _
assistant minister l-ie_nrv_,X,.,
to make _i_t impossible ior me11 New York uosques.'"5:~_~---' ' . '1-'.. 1_- ._ _92_;.-E--. -- _' I
.4 .
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I .|"5. -- -- ~;'""= Lf-~;~_- *=+'-:1:--[._A_.~r.=M'dlco|m Tells Attempt;. -- - _ -"H!-_ -_, - - _ ' 7 I _ _ .4-r .;__ .. - "_; .' - ' - - *'.-_ - -._»<..-w=~f. rg--._-: 1- - 4' -T. .. ' -, . 1 _ -1;I ~ ~ -- . ' - a "Qn II-1fe;,H|t-Q BrQther»ee@emu an-=»1m.' _¢¢-mm ' napalm; is the HBlack llualim!.:evea1lanaaentIIi-onhialiferefaaell 93*; W _totalkbyt|=leph0newithhia92nuther whoBt_weei
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be made mm :aam¢-Puni-
'*whomheaepa1-atedaeveralweehago. |'Bii!1UhnI'.n.nnedv._.:_--, I_tila£al:t,"heaa3d,"thataneffqrtwaamadeto _ _,__. ____,_.__-Zlmnnundanget someone 10 remove ma
._lrumlhel|ndu!the1iving. Prai|-1nltlIeIaLamieGo:!,.M-
Iaicalladatnllthalwhn
was armedotthealaar' '1 idly, I haélaehanee
_gI1elema1ittleknnIleI1l9quiet! their emu and
'vealtheIaull.be-aaaadlgide -
pence: yespuaaibk
: 'IIl'l I Q-
lre B10119] II
injlllct, I
aulin h
O-
HID
. brother, I Ia!-girl ml.-|aI|all dander,and hpnall of I1.-Irmade ifimposaible for anmrib nimae themj ' _
' Ialeall, la deellnlal b
i believe uniLam-llld. He Ill la at ll!
anything ta nla neaqa and
-en overall-" ,:
Malcolm denied he authoredplans for a "Black Natinnalilt
Army." as several newspapersquoted him, and saidjhat theonly name 1 know oi our 0r--piaa is the llualim
lloaqae, Incorporated."Ilaleohn mnny angered a
lei whle reporter: during the
eauiermee when be elded
unk questions la veganlini the
"practh.a1uy" or Neg-ra orga-
nizations advocating ael!-de-lease. Nan-vinleaea la nut-
dated," he laid, "Yum while:
lave maie violence aea-lme ..
Tia 8 a uid entry."Particularly, Maison stated
that he has aligned himself
with Rev. Hilton L Galamiaon,
leader at the geeuad New York
CU aehml bnycou; sseGray, Harlem neat strike ad-
er, nu! others-' ha he ' k n Dvmi l e
with 1-.he- lusnna. Ial lm
aid that he remains a tam:-'full Muslim, adhering to the
teachings ui the Honogable Eli-III
he aaei the plu-
|: km. gomlllf Illlmenmaul W . [wit Wmy "God'l Judzmll Ohm tunAmericl,"- 1* M F t. .,_Center after it ?"f"-'5 ' hsassination. He and thli _-w 5 suSP' d°§l by H :_n::;cause 1*. 5"°b""d .5: mg leader. Pl'°!}im_tm¢ugljm {lm menuqnn:dfs name in I?921b1"=- , _{'71:-'1. _- ..>,II.0I'lIER~.
.-.74
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CHICAGO DIFINDIR
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
wu:1cLY IDITION
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Malcolni X'
ported 1
in K0.-.'
plans 10
lion or-'l_there. I
new an recent in
plea for Negroes to arm them-Neelveewumettemptlostirupl
an ollensive. He was here for a
television aw. .
Claims He: Mlsqnoled .
. I wee miequoled." he said."What I said was that in urea.where gm [092''nl_1'l¢l1ihd<I851-ptprov e prvlillll. '88?"- '
Yshould protect themselves."The consmtlon providesthat a Negro my on e. rifle.and I believe he lhmld in
placee like Birmingum.Malcolm X aid he is opposed
to nonvioimee. What I advocate is nor.-non92i_iolence. he laid. "lhin is
: vi lent oounln, but the term
llerent Lone when it's used B!Backs Negro p
Righis Fighi .
Malcolm X, leader ol the div
sident group of the Black Mus
lim sect. nld Saturday he will
support other Negro leaders in
their quest of civil rights, allhoq
"l am not an advocate el eiv
rights.
What I want is separation,ll; integration," mid Malcolm92 Negioes." 'violxilre seem! to have 1 6'1?-l. --- . '
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