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NEW YORK BULKY EXHIBIT FILES
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4» r di== o="ition qr» 1"" DFJFTIF?-D yr co::c1:=:s1 ;c 0'+f__GASEZEstimated date o .p Q _ ~;_
Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibit _,, VETAITW _
List of contents:
H f Llr ham Brvthma 1. 9 photcegnd one negative c- : a . .- J; _r2. Physical surveillance Ion re Abraham Brothman on 1-23-50. ?I -¢i$.:' I 5,__- J1 : 2' 3» TI'BCiT"-E50 1.. Q . '1 ! 1 I r ~.n;¢u.-£ _ -1- - 92-
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Date received 5_nc_5Q
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Title of case!
Submitted by Special Agent;;: »_ ;J¢B,oUUwoHX _ __ _ _ __
Source from which obta.ined_ _ _i _ WSEE ST2_??_',£._9_2_,~?37 _ _ ______________ __
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Estimated date ofdisposition on BE !_*=?r.*1z:nJ.: r~o;;or-130.0: or-" c..».s1~1 o.
Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibit__ii3;gk1gf:T__A;:;:_4_:_
List of contents:
4. 4 photographs of Harry Gold. _ 5.zr, " ȣ15*W;tzb*-=1 '
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Title of case!
Submitted by Special Agent__ _ _ _ J-R _1§U_P3=_TY_ _Z _ _ _ __ _ __ _
Source from which obtained__ _ S'?£_SF:§IAL*%6i i i 6 i _ _
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Estimated ate of disposition _ TC BE___'[,13fJ TED AT GO§!CTI.; SI0T3 OF GI-5§ _ __
Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibit _o _'-_':'3T1L_,-lE__ _ __:__ _ __
List of contents:
- 5. 2. prints cf photographs of Gerhagjd 73OI92'a1 770118"-6. 2 prints of photo,-raphs of R013 =-ollan.
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Submitted by Special Agent _ _ _J_-FL Y-mF?I"1§oi __ __ _ __ *__ ,1
Source from which ob1.ainedi__i __ E_r"7~:LLu-'__i1;iO _ ___ : _
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Ultimate disposition to be mode of exhibit? __"_'"- I11-"'1, __ __ __ _ _-92
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List of contents: -
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'7. Photogx-aphic copy of a five page 17_,Vp¬'»92Tit.Len document, to-ether with a
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Date roceiveé 6-1?-59
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Title of case! _
__ -1_-,T,i-,_l_Foll_T'1"-E,-o1'_ _ _ _,_,:;__ o_ o o . _ __ Submitted by Special Agent
Source from which obtainéd_ 5?3_53¬§5¥ 141 ___ _,:: _ _
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Purpose for which acquired_ Z W151351;ggJTON, _ ____ A___ _i"o4_1
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Estimated date of diSp03i1i0D__f1p wt f[nT"?§_g1 QQQLLEIQ OF_CA§E _L
- Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibit_W__ _ H§IgI§:T;__;__fi?_;
List of contents:
$p3_ rone photo and one neggtivc of Miriam Hoskovitz taken 1943-/9. ~sqg'phm,@ of I-.b:.=.ham Brot-hman taken 191.5. "/
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Submitted by Special Agent_Z I:jQHQlf_m_ 41 4* i _ i
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Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibit_
List of contents:
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10. I.nLerviem log re. Miriam Efoskov-'it.z dzited' G, , -A /..~o--lie $11-/,~-6 ' ~-f-'-1-TP
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, BULEY EXHIBIT
ABRA.§_§§§IFEAH W i
J_,T- };E?5"5.°_--1P :_ _ __ _ _
Title of case!
Submitted by Special Ag9nt___J4_DDLLlKI *L:t __- '
_ ro»141 <:! -1-as!
Date received 7l1§0
Source from which obtained_ _ FER ZZQLFL RE _ _ _1i;
~_ Address;f;Z o_:i _;, _ _cZ__
1 Purpose for which acquired_ ZQJLERQE _m___
Location of bulky exhibit_> _17CAElFTF,TlTR ?IL3_W
Estimated date of disposition o 1; _ T3 95 §P§5E
-Ultimate disposiiion to be mode of exhibit "*TEl§
List of contents:
ll. Ono typewritben 5leLemenL executed By
with Gold: as ociLion with Brotbr~n.
One typewritton Etatement EXuCULE by Hurry 3515
principolly with Lhe possible violation? of perj
perjury on the p'.~.:ri. 05' Pr-otl?m?.~n.H:~.I':'y G07 fl
' 12.
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which den]: solely
wLich is concerned
ury an subornation of
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J BULKY EXHIBIT
1
» 1 Date received 1Z2§f§O
AFT-AHI-.". R Tf%"5d-1 _ _, _
IEIj5"£@?:;R___ lQU:25Q6E "13
Title of case!
Submitted by Special Ager1t_JOHI U. OOLIJTTS-.
¬# T9FD-141
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. 1- .
Source from Whl§h obta1ned_ SA AG 1111!-'"-U92S J- _1I_3fI§.!J92E _____ _ T_r_ _
Address ___Room 1801 -
Purpose for which acquiredU.S. Court House
1"92'¤eT-1'-?f~'="If"~' o
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Location of bulky exhibit. __;___ 1!" _Cj»_5I?_-= ET '.-.I".l,_."1 TI, _ __ *,___
Estimated date of disposition _ 'I92_'_'_EiiiIf".*'.-_Tlc-.i:3_I_3;_@jI' '.'1" _7C-l3._.5_I_Q§L¥_Q}* CASE
Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibit:W___7_T53l§l" _ __
List of contents:~#w
13. Hinutes of Grand Jury.
I506 cnwit; before Gram?
14. Hinutes Er Grand Jury.
P-ioscnwitz before C1-and
I
3: 15. Ffinutes of Ca-and Jury.Testimony of Abraham
Jury. so uy 7/14/so.
Testimony of Abraham
Jury. ~51: 2:1 7/1-7/5:1.
Thstimonv of Abraham"oscov.'iL2. before Grand Jury. SD-N1 '7/1?!/"tilt; - 1 ;h:fr ¢;-f ~»<1L@1M;;j:é.[»Z?¢»L74£4/92a1Q g[0 -;;>U92 JI?//F Y
7 *7 '7 -'7 V 7 7* '7"-~ -' -___- 1--it -_; ;~T--~7_7; 1 _ V ____ 7Brothnian u iiiriam '
drothrnan & liiriam
Broth:-.an '8; Hiriar:
§16:$35?!§§7-
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JUL-."1l_1950,__
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BULHY EXHIBIT
Data raceivad 115/50
£>_Pf==l'TlQ_l_F3if"§'"EF" H55 o_
_____OO-950133--15 _ Espioixgge-fFi_
Title of case!
ITSubmitted Dy Special Agent Hm-'t».'=" Y5, ,I£,FZ _ _ _ _ _
Bource from which obtained__§gH1j31_A55't,_¢Q_5*;L Thgmnf Ib3,;n_ i_
Address 7 it Fl-_~3_-7 Com-1; House _ H__ c;'r;r;~j1_:~i_I'£.=.L!
Purpose for which acquired 4]§YEST;§§TI0N 7* iii? _
Location of bulky exhibit :}N_§ oo:§YYHTH FILE _ h?,"!?T 1 _,
Estimated date of disposition :0 BIZ IEICIIED I-.T g9=;ggt1s1qr or cos:-:* _
- Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibitl_ é?_ H3T¥D§ _ _ _ _
List of contents:
l6.- Hinutes of Brothman testimony before Grand Jury on 7-22-47-
17. Hinutes oi Harry Gold's tes-timorry before Grand Jury On '7-31--6'7.
9:
@4:.95_l_.é6;/Bpm . r.'FW YORK
i JUL $1 195_0_____
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BULHY EXH1 BI '1' _
Date received Q[21 150
_ H ABn..U-1]-.T§ BT!C'H"§T-U3TT T _, _ fé __
'£1SPIC=-ZIJE-R - 109-95068-1Bf ii if Title of @556} * f
Submitted by Special Agent _ .1. H. oougrrso, __,_1__W]__i,_ _ i_ W *_ W
Source from which obtained _5$315?Ti§lf2§? _ <+i__:4_
Address _ _ ______ _ 1 _ ,___ _+___
Purpose for which acquired _ i lEE§§QlQ5TiG¬ _ Z_1_
Location of bulky e>:hibit___i___' I-*4 CA -'-'~7T 3711? F3-3 it _ _
Estimated date of disposition; _ __'Il'w_1."Z U3!! AT !T.'1l.j§;i_.1If.j!_!_ OF .5.SL_ _ ___, C
' Ultimate disposition to ho made of exhibit _ B3TAfH _ A ~
List of contents:
/I/' 19- *'I92ro photostatic coeies anon-oar-marinas Pmcesie for Buna-5" by
An and lion I
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' "' 19. Room-L on the Rubber Program 191.0-1945.
A-. ti '7926L,4. Eel?
92 h ./dd _-j?£§é5_f "1/15/0!
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BJLKY EXHIBIT
Date recelved 5/ " '
i _ :5?-_L IOQ-Q3358 ___
T1t1e of case}
Submltte by Specaal Agentié
BIAL Il_ _ ___; Source from which obta1ned W_ ___
Address__ W é_ ___ 41 4____ __
Purpose for whlch acqu1re :: ;;r _: _ _
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Locatzon of bulky exhibit
w-~ --rq.. .+92
Estimated date of d1spos1t10n__
Ult1mate d1spos1t1on to he made of exh1b1t_ _ _
L1st of contents_--q_n-nu-4-:-|_-nun-an-|---i
0. r'hc»Lc*tat~.': 50,110 0' ..2'1i ntt.-3* ir92~;u:.1rr~ = r, ~- . 9 d,__1'LQQ
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BULHY EXHIEZT
Date
§BRAI-IA!! B?£!I_:£--EAILN _
_ 100-95065-12
Title of case!
Submitted by Special Agent__ _T m3_y_ KLHR,__
Q! -1-4s! .FD-14!
received 5-] [:50
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Source from which.obtained __ _W,JiB,lHH&;
Address_ m__ _;; N _ u __ u
acquired__ EYlDEHQEc1 c_ _ ' _ Purpose for which
Location of bulky exhibit - IR CABINET WITH FILE ii 4iu;_ _
Estimated date of dispositinn_ 41u_ ___?D PE D§g;P5P'&T-p9§§lE§g£Eil¥1l35E
R3IAlH41c_ _ Wu c4_ 5 . Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibit
' f ntents:
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BULKY EXHIBET
Date received 4-3?-53
W &§§HAM BBOTHHAN
. ,_1.0_O-55068-1B
Title of case!
Submitted by Special Agent_ 4: <1 §FT_¥- K§!§§ ___ 4_ _ _ _ 5° _ c c ,,
Source from which obtained QQHE QQLL115_::_W_ __ __ é __ __Z_
Addressj; _ W 7 7 T__ :_ _;_i; ;T _ 7 _ _;
Purpose for which acquircd_J i__F_§vIn53c3 i
Location of bulky exhibit 1 I5 C3§1"EL$IIH FILB_ _ 4_ _ _
Estimated date of disposition_ 7 To BB DBCIDQD Q! Q°"@¥V$£9E,°F*@&5B_*
Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibit Hpqgly __ <_4_ :_ 4_
List of contents:
23- Original notes of interview with subject on 5-22-50
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BULKY EXHIBIT _
Date received___§3;_-$_Q______
A?RAHLU BEDIEUAN
100-95069-15A my Title of case! i
submitted by Special *s@*-
Source from which obtained___,lEsllEIHG_£s;SA$PGL 1_ =
Address 13; ,_; so * *"*
Location or bulky e;;nibi1,._ _1n;;ig§1rri:T;g1__tu~. Fm; :1; s
Estimated date of disposition _TP B3 FEFCIEED AT OONCLT151-:0" OF CASE _ _
. . . » . - - RETAINUltimate disposition to be made OJ eihibit W i i;_ __ -
List of contents:
. Copy of indictment of Abraham B1-othman and 1-iirian Hoscowitz.
25. Original and one copy of bench warrant for Miriam Hoscorritz.
26. Urigingl and om cop; of bench warrant for Abraham Brc-thmam
*~1oMT * *-N~%$-" -
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BULKY EXHIBIT
S Date received 333-59
='~- ~§M; - 1='3;=:r5-2.u w ___ _ _
:10D:,S:5QéS-AB , ,_ _ _
Title of case!
Submitted by Special Agent_ _ J.N. _ 7 ____ _ i _ __
Source from which obtained_____§§§_§531AL_g34 _ _:__;_ _ _
Address _ ; __ _ i ;__ _ _ _ _ ____ __
Purpose for which acquired Iwyr5I1GQTIQH_ 7 L __
Location of bulky exhibit IjABlE S _ ___
Estimated date of disposition TO BE II; l1I£pJJ'__gQ;qQL;;;_;I0N_DF__GA5B
Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibitié H@T1IN_ ;___T_:W
List of contents:
27. Typewritten copy of the agreement betwggn the Industrial process
Engineers and Bx-othman and Moskof-"itz showing the exact duties of
Ab:-eham Brothman.
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BULKY EXHIBIT
Date received g:¢_5Q
Q11 Hg-HQ!; E g;"r"Fg: ;
103-GqQ§5:1E
Title of case!
Submitted by Special Agent __ _ AUSA FDY H. COHN_
Source from which obtainedéi JDHE;C,;QQ11I__ t:_i_i_fif2;__ 4_
Address
cquiT9d___ __J1UEEJ1AI1Q_ ,4? i__iZ; __, i __ _ Purpose for which
Location of bulky exhibit IN C!.BII.."3T 1311- 5 E119
Estimated date of disposition TU BB DECIBEDjhT:QQQL5TQ QE $553
' Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibiti RETAIN _i___
List of contents:
p28- Harsh¢1's return to writ of habegs corpus obtained by W*11iam L
- "isiné d=1""==¢ attorney and affidavit. of m.:s:. my rz. com-1 in Supportof retu§n.
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- FD-141 £2 Q ':-1»4s!- 5
BULK! EXH I BIT
Date received '7/39'/-=9 *'
.-'1I*3§?.-'1I~iii I I330? §:'.f?92?92
100-F-TSQBB-13Z U Title of case! _ F
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bPurpose for which acquired 1FIi53':IG;T1O:] ~__ ~
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E t ted date of disPcs"'tion To HF DECEEEU AT COHCESSI 3"} G CASE IS IEDP. -- _,:__,_ I c K, W W 4
. . . _ . . '-:.=:T=mr' Ultimate disposition to be made of eihibit; _ _ _
List of contents:
qr 39. Arrest 1.0; of Miriam Losirm-rit;.1$0, _ Aresst 1.03 of !.br.=.?1:=cr. Prothrmm.- ,9292- 92['/L14/H/1-i£-11."-1-j /{*7 /95 ? _ _-.
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BULKY EXHIBIT _
Date received ?£?9{B0
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Title of case! -
Submitted by Special Agent:____ _ §@U5 "- QQB1133¥W _ _W__ _
Source from which obtained_ _;_ i ;§Q59 V-iE@L11*5;_ ~ j<4:T 7
Address
Purpose for which acquired W 4_: 1Y?ESIIQ§T1QI _74: _ _ j _
Location of bulky exhibit j _?__1,*! Mo1?:L'.{:;:' --1'I':1 55,1: j T: f
u Estimated date of disposition; %IE_EE DLCI?§i, _§§:g?n§;9K G~ cl
' Ultimate disposition to be made of exhibit _ ?3¤3:
List of contents:
31. ;H0ceipts for property of Abraham rcthwan.
_$ 32. Receipts for proyorty of Piriam Yozcnwitz.' , 1,-,,~,,,§ ,W .,£ 111- 9434/-/$ '° il-
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Date received 3/5/53
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10?-F5065-1B
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gt THERMAL DIFFUSION - A PROSPECTUS
|.
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I I. Bscgground 9
A. Definition -- Given a mixture of two gases in motion
92 between s hot and a cold wall, there will be set up a
considerable difference in the relative concentrationsr
W of the two gases at the top and the bottom of the ep-
paratus. If the mixture at either or both ends of the
i equipment is regularly taken off then there results
" whet is known as the "thermal diffusion - siphoning"
effect. The rste of circulation of the gas mixture
' must be such that it is well below the critical value
9 -for the Reynold's Humber, i.o., so that no turbulence8 will result -- otherwise a considerable amount of re-
: mixing may occur.-_ _
1
i - Thermal diffusion in the case of liquids is
known as the Soret effect and occurs whether or not
the liquid is in motion, I
B. Historical -- The phenomenon of thermal diffusion
iwas first discovered theoretically by Enskog of Sweden
in 1911 and independentlf by Chapmen in Englandin 1917
the Later in the same year Chapman and Dootson gave
first experimental proof of thermal diffusion. It was
; Chapman who first suggested 919! the use of thermalI diffusion in the separation of isotopes but this ides_.____ev._n-..._e..-Q.-_a_-._..-.a o-_'.__.__'...._,.;,._H_..__,_.92.,:_inie.,::__:,_-7?? _ ___+ _ ___r____ ___V______ ____ W 1___.__ _ _i __ ____ V_ Vii
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- 4 g ~ was ridiculed by Mulliken who concluded that it could
' not compete with other methods. As a result, except
' for such theoretical work as was done be Chapman up
until 1932, the utilization of thermal diffusion as
completely neglected by physicists till 1938 when it
1 .
was revived again by Clusius and Dickel in Germany
and then in America by Brewer and Bramley and a'number
1 of other investigators. _ _ - "
The so-called Soret effect for liquids was really
Iiret observed by Ludwig in Germany in 1856; it was
reported in France by Soret twenty-five years later.
- II. Theory _
i ' ' '
Furry, Jones, and Onsagsr Reference I! believe that
; neither its existence nor its sign can be derived from
i elementary considerations. Its presence can be understood
I only be a detailed consideration of_the equations of
i - transport in a gas. However, Frankel Physical Review
- 57:66l! and Gillespie Ibid. 6l:388! have proposed
reasonable simple explanations; these considerations
?v can be used to give a correct estimate of the value of
L the thermal diffusion constant.
in; Brewer and Bramley Physical Review 57:359! give as
it{nu ,
a general description of the three actions that Sive rise
to thermal diffusion:
a. Difference in mass thermal or initial diffusion!.
~ 1 _'_ I J -"No simple theory can give an account or thermal diffusion;»
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~ b, Mass action of gas similar to convection current.
2 Slight concentration due to Langmuir film.i Ce
1 d. The radii of the two molecules.
Hot all mixtures can be separated as the coefficient
b _ .
of thermal diffusion vanishes when the mode of interaction
the radii, and the masses of the two sets of molecules are
all equal. 7
h- All theoretical efforts to explain the Soret effect1»
-1.
5|
5 in liquids have been
J III, _2:§crip*ti0E of Apparatuscompletely unsuccesful. H
Essentially all that is needed are two concentric .I
F" cylinders, the inner one heated and the outer one cooled,g mounted in a vertical position, with reservoirs at the
*j top and bottom communicating with the annular space be- >Y
' tween the cylinders where convection and diffusion take
*"' place. In most cases the lighter molecules will concen-
V -trate toward the top of the apparatus,
Glusius and Dickel ran a heated wire up the axis of
a long vertical hollow tube into which was put the gas
- mixture to be separated; using a 50% Helium and 50%Bromine
mixture, the two gases were separated in a matter of min-
utes in a tube only three feet long,
In addition to Reference I, thermal diffusion equip-
I
.
I1 ment is described by Taylor and Gockler Reference 2! and
I Nier and Bardeen Reference 5!. Apparatus for thermal
er?» - - * *co$mmevxaa~esli~=*"v@*a~e »;gar;;ir%$§%*j _1Q-92V I 3
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diffusion in liquids is detailed by Gillespie and Breck
Reference $1 and by Carr Physical Review 613726 and
J. Chemical Physics 12=s4e!;' ~
one very significant feature of the apparatus for
thermal diffusion in gases is that an annular spacing of
0.7 cm. seems to work best of all. -'- - _
The inner tube is usually heated by Nichrome wire
but any other means such as steam or Dowtherm can probably
be used much more effectively on an industrial scale.
IV» FEE? 25 TP9I@Fl 9i?§? i9B -
It is proposed to utilise thermal diffusion to in- _
crease the concentration of O3 in air from the normal 21%
up to 60 or 80%. ,This enriched oxygen can then be used
for any oxidation process such as the manufacture of
sulfuric acid from sulfur and the manufacture of nitric
acid from ammonia. The saving in size of equipment, power
and overall efficiency would be incalculable. i' *
1 .~
other proposed fields of investigation would be:
a, Recovery of CO2 from stack gases: if the ordinary
14% by volume C02 concentration could be raised
to say 40 or 60%, then this process can be made
I681! 0 V _ _
b. Separation of azeotropic liquid mixtures, part-
icularly such as ethanol-water and the bothersome
methanol-other solvents azeotrope.
;1£;;;;;;;3:;;E;m ;:@ti:i:§:E§?@3;5:i:;£:ii*e;?:hii5;;ézgfi%&§é§!?¥;???HEeggeeeeesggpw=.::2=-- J, -"Q
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c. separation of liquid mixtures with close boiling 1
points such as the xylols.
d. Concentration of the end products of the butanol-
acetone-ethanol fermentation. These occur in 1 r
total or only 2 to 5 grams of solvent per_l0O cc. _or beer and the cost of distillation is necea- é tII _ _. If
sarily high. ' '
.»92
e. Separation of traces or imurities from liguidl, if?
Q such as thiophene in benzene. ~ q y l
- 1. .3;_. This list is only a mm: as to what can actually be ' "1 1, 7
._ I E .
" done by the application of thermal diffusion. - '~?
_§
Gonclus ions - ' :1 ;
While nothing as yet has appeared in the literature
¬ regarding the application of thermal diffusion to_an in- . £2 Q 5
i dustrial process, still, in order to be on the safe side
' ..L__it must be assumed that such work is being investigated. ' *
It is certain, however, that the person to submit "H
'- ,1
92
2first p
pilot plant proofs or definite applications to industry
s , .1 -.;,;-i=Iwill be-in a key position in a new and potentially vast F?
I 1- ; 5
Z .1-- Note. Appended are photoatatic copies or References I, 2, *%
3, and 4 given in the body or the report. t - Q 3
£7
92 92' 92
// /ff?. -_-s / J /
.5- - L3, make the following voluntary statement to
_ .1613 E. BREEJFIAR and T. 5C_>'lT ILILLER, JP.., who have identified
ti-xer:e=.lves to me as Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of levee-
tigetion. 5.0 threats or prornises have been made to me ind I knot:
that any statement I make can be used against me in a Court of Lew.
I have been advised of my right oi counsel and I know that 1- do not
have to make any statement at all.
Some time in the mid% or late August of the year 1941, :13-'
-vy/1--¢ "-I51--r-~l-4,..'§ovi=-.t superior, .:>i92I.', who has since been identifieddee %=r;=:;.'E.'_ FLJV,
told or-. that he I'O.ild have an important assignment relating to ob-
taining information from a "Goverru:1e.':t official." He did not elaborate
on this except that a week or so after his first a:1nou::ce:::ent in the
midéle oi August, he told me of an arrangement for meeting this 113:1.
About a week later he told me that the proposed meeting ms off. I
eve that the reason that he gave was that there was a Jewish holiday,
the Jay of Atonement, coming up, and that the man in question or his
ilmediete family were religious. He also, at this time, gave me in-
structions for a later meeting. Tnis meeting, I believe, Wes to be L1
the downtown part of New York, somewhere in the neighborhood of Day
or Chm-ch Street. 4- appewed for this meeting/bot it did not taize place.
T.."1ere is some little doubt in my mind whether or not this or a follow-
ing Ire-eting, which also did not ce, actually occurred in the
order that I have given the::1, alt in any case to summarize:
/0045095-/19:;
.'. - t
|
I .;
There were three proposed meetings; one which Sill, himself,
called off, and two others, one of which may have been called off by . .
SAL andfcgae of which 4- definitely went and the man in question did
not show up. How, up to this time, he had not been described to me
by name. Q:-';;:as merely the statement that he was an important "»overn--
m"nt official, an eng:i_neer. I believe that the third meeting was near
a Cni1ds Restaurant, somewhere in the Broadway District. About the
third reek in September, Sic. gave me a set oi instructions for mating
this nan. This meeting was to take place between 6th and 7th Avenues,
sozr-where about 26th or 27th Street. The man in .;1185tiOr1 was to be
in a car, the license number of which had an PE!" in it as I recall, and
I have since been told by the Investigating Agents, or rather I have
beer. shown a memorandum card on which is written, in my handwriting, the
license number 2559088. Also on the memorandum card was the fact that
I was to as}: about this man's wife, EAOLII, and to ask abort his baby
daughter, and I was to bring gret.t-ings from "PFEIEEI." I was told, at
this time, that the man's nsn1=- was ABP.sliL.1£ I1P.OTH.fLi. This meeting took
place as planned on e ikonday night, very late in september. 1 definitely
recall. that the occasion of this meting was also the night oi the JOE
LOTJIS - LOU I-OVA heavyweight fight. BROT:-E.'.!~£! was late for this meeting
o-¢..a
by shout 10 or 15 minutes, and finally came along the street in the
,middle tmnties, between 6th and 7th ;itre¬175 in his car. I spotted the
license number. It was very dark and as is usual in the Fur and Jrament
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district, there was no one there at all. I opened the door and slipped
into the car beside him. He seemed a little startled for .1 mot;
possibly he thought that this was aaneone hostile to him. I then
gave him the greeting; and identified nwseli as FRJQHC K13S5I..'-?.. Just
about this time, the fight cam on, and we sat in the car and heard it
on BP.3'l?I}.iAI."a car radio throughout the two or three rounds that the
fight lasted. Re then drove around for a little whi} , possibly 1.5
or 23 minutes, during; which time I tried to appear as genial as possible.
B.~T3'lH1..A§1 asked a few questions about Htliili and he also inquired about
".xot~n:." BRO"1¥l'.AN one re that H21?-re was the person who had proceeded
me and was the person to Whom he had given information. He also told
me that JOHII had proceeded EEIEIS. Our later conversation took place
in a Bickford Restaurant, that same night, and was an ex0eed:Lng;ly lengthy
one. This Bickford Restaurant, by the way, is located on, 1 believe, '
the west side of either 6th or 7th Avenues, above 34th 5trset, but below
42nd Street.
At this tine, BRCITPIHAT. told me that he had not gotten along too
well with and 1- gathered from his conversation thatthe f11in0ipal
difficulty was the fact that h7~ -LE2; was not technically trained. also
told me that he worked for the Hendrick Eanufacturing Company of Carbon-
dale, Pemisylvania, and low York City. He also told me that he had gotten
along very well with JGHR e conversation may have lasted as long as "
three hairs. I believe that it broke up sometime around one o'clock, --
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because I believe that 4- have 1 recollection of jest maiing a l25
or s 1:35 train back to Philadelphia. BROTHL'!C., also, upon the occasion
of this first meeting with him, said that heawas glad that I was av i
chemist because he believed that it would make possible the occasion
of him again funneling information through me to the Soviet Union.
Tnis information, I understood, was to cover the various processes
on which BROTELZAII was doing design work for the Hendrick hanuiaoturing
Company.
I have stated the phrase, "on which B5iC'2HL1A!i was doing design
work" becsuse,fron: his conversation, I gatheredthat he was in cozzplste
charge of all design work at the Hendrick Company. The rest of the
conversation, and as I have said, this was a quite lengthy one, con-
¢
corned B.»=:OIHk.;-I Qhimself. There was a good deal of backgrmmd material,
including the fact that he had won a scholarship, a Harkness scholarship,
to Columbia University, at I believe, the age of 14. It also included
the story that one of his uncles, on, I believe, his mother's side, was
supposed to have gotten him a scholarship for the City College of New
York, but had refused to use angr influence to do so. Then BB? re-
lated with great pride and satisfaction the fact that in a competitive
exsminationlhe had; wound up first, and had obtained the coveted Hark-
ness scholarship, which not only included tuition to Columbia College,
but also included maintenance, books, and possibly some additional fzmds
Zher'e was some talk about PHOT'n§iAI."s daughter, who was t.h-on not
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much more than an infant. This child I aiscovsred to be .'-JLSA. Eris .
I beliew, covers the extent of the matters discussed during my first
tzaeting with é.':'.E B_qO'IT-I1.-RE.
As I have stated before, I told BRO2HlEi1I*I that I % a chemist
and told him that my name was FRATJK ESSISE, but I did not tall him
where I lived except to indicate that it was not in New fork City. 1'-e
made arrangements, or rather; I set the arrangement for a second meeting.
This was to take place in Child's Restaurant on Columbus Circle, the
west side of Columbus Circle, that is. It was to be approzdunately 8:90
p.n:., and was to take place, I believe, on Thursday or Friday oi the
week following our first meeting. This second meeting took place, but
B.=1O";H1.ZAl{ was about an hour and a half late. During this time, I made
several calls to his office at the Hendrick Company. I knew that they
were in the downtown part of New York City, somewhere around Church Street
I neglected to state that on the occasion of the first meeting,
B33'IYHl£AN gave me the phone number of the Hendrick Company, which 1 be-
lieve, was Barclay 9 - something.
I made two, possibly three calls to BRO'lHL'.A!3 at the office, on
each of which occasion, he said that he was leaving immediately and
would be up to Child's within 20 nrlnutes. Finally, he did arrive, as
I have stated, about an hour ahzi a half late. I was a little bit
irritated by this time because I did not like the attention which the .
waiter and waitresses in L'Ini1ds were paying to me. Daring this period '
1 .
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I consumed several drinks and had a very light snack. '-'-hen E5101!-i.'A1i V
did arrive, he did
earning the reasonnot apologize, but l did not make any in;;uiz'y con-"
. ~
why he was late. I had been told by to go very
easy with this mam and not to antagonize him, as others in the past had
gotten into quite violent arguments with him on the subject oi his
tardiness.
I had reported the results of my September meeting with AE
to S,-J.-Z, and I had been instructed that on the occasion oi the second
meeting, that 1 was to give 11=.omr;.:e 8 list, I believe, of
various subjects in which the Soviets were interested. I can not re-
call any of the details of this list, but in addition to this there was
the matter of cleaning up a good deal of the material which he had
previously given to PEIIBH, but in a very fragmentary form. I told
BROTHKAII about this matter, but he did not seem too receptive; he hardly
even nodded agreement. The principal subject matter of the second
conversation had to do with his difi'i-cult-§'°in working for Hendrick, and
also paradoxically, again how glad he was to knot me so that he could
again begin giving information. - He did promise that on the occasion
of the third meeting that be would have information for me. that this
information was to be, 1 cannot non recall. This, I believe covers the
subject matter of my second meeting with ABE BRO'1H1Lk92I. "
There is one thing that I have on my mind relative to the first I .
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conversation with BRO'I"r.AIE 1:1 53pDer.'.be1", and that was the fact that It
told BROIH1.ZA?-I that the power of the Comm Ln-:@' now sweeping, at that
time, throagh Russia was not to be underestimated; that here was probably
the greatest offensive force that the world ever had seen. I mention
this point because I wanted to point up to ABE; the necessity for ob-
taining information for the Soviet Union, particularly information of
military value. AB»? agreed with me as far as the striking power of
the }eI::nim L1-my went, and said that he was glad to see that here was
someone who did not brag as did the Daily Tiorkar oi tin victories of
the Soviet forcesprhezi act-sally they were being driven back on all fronts
#In commotion with this statement, there also occurs to m the fact
which I have previously not mentioned, ind that is that BR-3*'1Y~L;A; often
used to ask me for the true story or "inside dope" on what was really
happening on the Russian - -" ront. He evidently believed, and
I let him go on thinkim; so, that I had sources higher up of inside
information. To continue for a moment on this subject of inside infor-
mation, I had been told by SALT that under all ci.rcu.:15tanca.s I was to
be in charge of any activity with s=1o'x'.~nw:, and that 1 was to pretend
-bag 6l--.a-4.u.-lIh-
to know no mkatt-er what question BI-.OTHl£A192 asked me or whatever subject
B?.T/ITIILAI-I brought up. This was the reason that I permitted O'IEi.£A1I to
think that - had known both JOEL; and rELFI~§, when he Iirst asked Ire
about then: on the occasion of our first meeting.
0311- third treating took giace about a week or ten dys after ' .
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the second meeting, and occurred near Dey and Church Streets, haw
York City. I believe that I was waiting in front of a closed cafeteria
on De? Street, on the southeast corner, but a little further along on
%;' Street. I had great diiiicu1ty in making this meeting since it
was set for about 7:30, but l did get there from Philadelphia on tine.
13.-"-.O'lE-1.1.2. did not show up, and did not show up for fully two hours. Y- hen
he did come down, it was close to 10:00 o'clock, and he did not have
any information with him. When I asked him about this, he said that
he had been tied up in the office and there were still peoplgggbhe
could not bring it dorm tc me, but he proxzzised definitely that he would
have this information on the occasion of our next meeting. I ca-mot
recall the occasion of our fourth meeting, that dis, the exact pllce.
I do not believe that it was the same corner where I had met him the
third time because I had waited there so long that it was against all
my principles, and the thing; that I had been taught by 33;; and the pre-
ceding Soviet agents as a mama of procedure, but I met him scmevrhere
in that anaa. It is possible that it was a little to the west on Bey
Street, that is, the first street over from Church Street. He did have
material for me that time, but this turned out to be a sirgle blueprint;
I 1::-;r have since identified this blueprint. It concerned a piece of
mixing eruipmnt. Either that evening or a few days subsequent, I
turned this material over to SAL, and on the occasion of 115* next meet-
ing with SALL, received a verbal dressing down because of the fact that
the material was fragmentary in nature, and was totally v-clueless, with-
out a description of the process to which it pertained.
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On the occasion of, I would say somewhere between the fifth
and the seventh meetings with B?..IIP.;;.'.!I, I again received n.a.teria1. which
I believe I have since identified as a thousand gallon water cooled
resin kettle, manufactured for the iiynvar Company oi It-'i1x:i:1gton,
Delaware. On this occasion, I tool: the precaution of first inspect-
ing the material and determined that as it stood, it was couple tely
valueless, and as a matter of fact, there was the possibility that even
had a full description of the process be given pertaining to this ger-
ticular resin, it would not have been material which could not have been
obtained from any textbook on chemical engineering. 'Iherc-fore, I did
not turn this material over, but kept it in my home. I did tell Ski,
however, of the nature of the information that BFt0'.['I£L£.I.' had tried to
give me, and Ski continued to hammer away at are that I nmst get him
to conform to our regular miles of proceizre. -
It should be noted in this connection that the previous person,
ALFRED SLACK, with whom I had dealt from the fall of 194-0 on, and whom
I was even now seeing, was of an entirely different nature as far as
punctuality, value of the material which he gave me, and the complete-
ness of the information supplied. As a result, I was more or less at a
complete loss for ways of how to handle BROI'HL'.AI». Also, in this period,
which is early December, there was one,end possibly two meetings_during
which BF=0"1'I-{M}; did not show up at 111, and during which calls to the i
office elicited information that he was either out of town or was
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would have to come to an end. He Ias extremely irritated by this and
told xze that while he realized that I was being prompted to do this by
the ioviets, that they were a bunch of fools, and they did not realize
how nnch valuable infomxation he had already given them, and they also
did not realize to what extent he was being pressed to complete work
at the Hendricl-: Company. I-Le was extremely vehement about this and I
was somewhat taken aback. I1 connection with this valuable infomztim
c2. J -<-*7 he mentioned that he had previously handed over, I believe to JDTZI, -ler 3-L
e turbine type of engine for aircraft, and also information on one of
the earliest jeep models which had beer designed by him for the Hendrick
Company, and by the Hendrick Company in turn, for the U.-S. Government.
At L-ac end of this time, or this tirade, he cooled down somewhat and
finally said, "E?el1,_if it is information on complete pmceases thatu
e="='é wanted, 1 have Something that I an certain you people will mot.
Right now in the office there is the complete design oi a powder plant
built by the Hendrick Company for the Atlas fowder Company." I believe
he gave the location as being in the South, possibly Chatanocga. I
may be mistaken as to the nam of the powder company and the name of
the town, but it is Stmething similar to atlas. It was a name which
I had recognized because oi familiarity with the chemical: r§§§-Q and
the location was definitely somewhere in the South. I told SM? about
U115 E~T»».l 1'13 I38 greatly overjoyed. I had made a definite arrangement _
vfith B.-ILTEQLI-.21 to meet on the night of, I believe, Honday or '1uesd.ay, j
possibly lionday, the 22nd of December, 1941. Tnis meeting was to take
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place at 50th Street and Ieadngton Avenue, on the northwest comer,
right where the subway exit is. This is diagonally across the street
from
is a
Park
Laneone of the kvdtheatres and is near two restaurants. The one
Biclzforci mstaurant and the next one is s cafeteria called the
Lar~.e which also has a bar as part of the setup. Iéext to the Park
is a ';ra:1slux Theatre.
ihe mating with BROTHL-Ah was to take place at, I believe,
10:03 o'clock. I waited until at least 10:25 mcause I had made split-
second arrangements for meeting SA: at another place. Tnis place was to
be the Iashington Square Express Stop of the Eth Avenue or Independent
subway system, and was to be on the platform, on the expnass platfom
of the system. It was s wet, cold, ni@t, and as I have stated
- I waited until the last minlte. Then, not trusting connections, and
with no sign of B3.0'IPILU£¬, I took a cab. However, the cab driver got
lostdown in the Greenwich Village ares and when we finally did get to
the Washington Square stop, it was well beyond the time when I was
supposed to met 55.1%. I raced downstairs to the platform Just in-time
to see an express pulling out for the uptown district. Tnere I got a
glimpse of a man whom I an sure was SALI, and I believe that he turned
his head and recognized me. I waited in great indecision until the
next express came along and than decided to take it. I got off at the
MthStreet stop, and there, surely enough, was SAM. By this ti-s,
,1-p4.£/1'
I was trembling both from emotional and ph§-'SiO&l exhaustion. I ts-id
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and he said, "3Jothi_ng; d .-." and I said, "Io." I was going to
launch into an excuse when he said, Hover mind," but in a var;-r 1<:Lndt' ;
r.m~ne:'. lie then "lent upstairs where he asked me to wait on the comer
of 14th Street, possibly it was 16th, where he left Ire. I knew what he
had left for, because he had made arrangements to have a second person
and possihly even a third waiting to take the material away from him
as quickly as possible. I believe also that my understanding with
BI-lZ1';H1L;-.';I was to have the material returned; that it was to be copied
and returned that same night. had told me that it was very
hllky and we had anticipated that possibly it would take three or
four hours actually to copy it. I had understood from B:".OIE£.'.A!. that
this was the complete design of the plant; every last detail, including
that of the building itseli. SAL! returned shortly and he took so to
the Ferris T=heal Bar which is located downstairs in the cellar oi what
was at that tim known as the Iknry Hudson Hotel. This is on 57th Ptreet
and Yinth Avenue, and this was the first occasion that I recall our
going there, though we did so, SA}; and I, on many subsequent occasions.
Tie had several drinksgrhich I needed badly!;-and a sandwich because I had
left Ivor}: late and had gotten nothing to eat on the way. SEC, in general,
was very conciliatory and I was relieved that 1 had msnag-led to at least
get in touch with him so that no more than one person was Kept waiting.
Ky next meeting with BQOI'I~£A3I took place after Cnristznas, and
at this time, I do not recall that excuse, if any, he gave me for n'ot- A
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giving ms the information on the Atlas Powder Company or for not Z '
keeping his meeting. I believe that it may have been that he '-was out
in the middle west, in Akron, Ohio, and at this time he told me that
he was in possession of complete information on the mamifacture of
Buns-S, a synthetic rubber. lie also told no that not only was he in
possession of complete information, but that he had the complete design
material, and he told me that he would have this materiel ready for
nn on the first oi January l91.2. Tmen I told did. about this, he was
highly elated because, I believe that one of the things on the list
which I had given BROTHLLAIZ verbally, on the occasion oi, I believe,
our second meeting, was Buns-S. SAL and I made arrangerents to met
on the ai cernoon,early in the afternoon, of e! Year's day, 191.2. I
came to Iley and O.-mt-ch Streets on the morning of New Year's day, and
again I waited, possibly an hour and a half, or two hours, for ABE,
and when he finally did come down from the Bend:-icl-:'s offices, he had
nothirg with him, but he did tell RB that he had been up working all
night on BunaS, and that some errors in the calculations which other
people in the offices had made, had come to his attention, and as 8
result, because he wanted the information to be very complete and
correct, he was unable to have the information for ms. I remember this
occasion very clearly and distinctly, because it was a cold morning
and I waited outside the Exchange Bar, which unfortunately was closed,
on 1-en Year's morning. '
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than BRO"T&{.'.At: finally did cone down, he drove ma to the __
area around the Penn Station. Again I recall this incident distinctly
because he and I went up the hast River Drive. at this tdzs, also, he
pr0:i5ed that within s short time, that is, a matter of a weak or so,
he would have this information for me; that is, the complete design
and process for making Buns-S synthetic rubber. Iuring the period from
the first of January until late in March 1942, ms clearest recollection
is that of one long series of castings with ABE, most of which actually
did not take place since either I was told that he was not at the office
and was told that he was at hose or I was told that he was out of town
or some other excuse was given. On several occasions, I did see him,
but again he had some excuse why he didn't have the material or uh
it was not ready; it always seemed to be practically complete, but never
quite ready. I recall distinctly that in late February of 1942, in
the course of only one week, I went four times to New York City, and
on only one occasion did I see ABE, and this was the occasion of my
fourth trip.
This was during that week, on a Friday evening. On each of
these occasions, because I was supposed to have the complete Buns-5
story, I met with SA! and I believe»also that on each occasion SKI had
one, and possibly two confederstes waiting so that he could turn the
information over to them. Finally, on this Friday-in February, when
I again showsd up empty-handed, I told SAX in great desperation that -
BROTHELX had promised to have the material for me on Saturday, the
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,fo'lJ.oIrL1g day. I believe that I ax; wrong, it was to be Sunday. I
told this to sea and told him in a very convincing tanner because I,
wseli, was convinced of the fact that this was certainly the time .
that I was going to have the Bans-F information. it this, SALT b=_=.--
came greatly enraged and while I do not mcall the exact words of
the conversation, I believe that what I am now going to say is prac-
tically verbatim:
He said, Look hero you fool, this soo=.m<i"e1 will not have the
information on :3u.nda}'. He won't have it next S-92.:.nd.ay or the Sunday
after that. I bet you that it will be a month or two maths before
you will get it; then I doubt that it will be complete. He doasrt
have it complete now; he does:-Ht have hall of it complete; maybe it
isn't even started on yet." _
ner: I still protested that I would like to come on Sunday
even though I would not meet him, then 11: said, That's jist the point.
Do you think I like to keep you coming up here over sir.g],e night in
the week, 'pIC'ti.G8ll§' looking like a ghost. Why, you loo!-: worse than
n ghost, you look like a sic}; ghost. Icm look like the devil."
Then he became so enraged, actually not at me but at I3.=I3IH3.£!-.!;,
that he was almost beside himself and actually stopped talking frown the
force of his anger. After he cooled down, he said, "Look, we are going
to have a couple of double 5cotcheS, and you are going to have something
- -to eat. Le will sit there and we will talk of music and in will talk _
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$032331 . You will oi opera, and we will not talk of that e
go home and rest up. inst in the world does your mother think of you?
Do you malise the danger in such a procedure? What do the people you
work with think of you?"
Some oi the meetings which were to have taken place with 311.11
actually did not take place until the early hours of the morning. Some
of them we place still in the evening, but on many occasions, sag
was xmahle to return until the early hours because of a previouc ocmt»
mont or arrangement with a cortfederate, and as a result, I was actually
extremely weary and exhausted; not only mentally, but physically.
The next event that occurred was that I told B?OTH;;A!§ that I
was extremely weary and that these meettqgs which had not taken place,
had taken a great deal out oi me, and would it not be possible for him
to arrange it so that I could help him for a weekend or an extended
period in which we could finish off this matter of the Buna-S. BR013-
IIAN agreed. to this and during, I believe, the first week in liarch, In
made an arrangement to go up somewhere into the country in i-Few York
5tata- e were to drive up more and HP.O'lH1~'-.A!92i was to take all of the
necessary data with him and Io were to put the Buna-S report in its
final form. Hi-<O:HL£Ah' said that it was so near complete, that actually
we would not have to take much time to work, that we could relax a bit.
We could play some handball or something of that nature. lfy principal
oonoem was the Bone-S, not the idea of p1&§"i."1{; he-_'92dha1.l.
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_ HHOI?f.3:¬ did meet nelageinx about an hour late. I recall t-10
place vary clearly. I was waiting on the comer of the Horn and Bard--
art's Cafeteria on 8th Avenue, ani 33rd Street, on the northwest corner.
I believe we were to go from there to either the Lincoln Txmnel or the
Hudson 'Iu:mel; 1 believe the Lincoln Tunnel, actua1.lY- BR0I'rY11#=!i did
show up finally, as I have said, one hour late, and told mo agair. that
a previous engagement had made it impossible for him to keep the weekend
agreement. Frankly, by this I'LL:-Ia, I was somewhat relieved and was glad
to get heme. 1-hen I did tell $351.5 about this, he said, "Look, the next
time that you meet him, tell him to set a time, we don't cam what time,
but in the near future, within two weeks, during which he must absolutely
finish the Bima-S." '§v'ow,"he said, "do not threaten him; just set this
tine. If he does not complete itjwithin the time that we have specified,
we will drop him; that is all."
I did make an arrangement with EiO'1}E£!.!; and one that was finally
successful. It will be recalled that at this time, I had cm up for
the draft. léy actual physical examination took place or: April 20, 1942.
On instructions from SAX, I did not tell 6§?:'that 1 was being drafted,
but said instead, that I was going to be tra:".sfe:'red by my fim to Cal-
ii'ar':1ia, and I told him that I was very anxious to finish up the B:ma5
and that HEOTIQEAIE said that it was practically complete, I made arrange-
zients-pith BR3T~IiiAN whereby during, I believe, the last wee}: in 1-Larch, .-
1 came to New York, and we spent up entire night from about em
xi . I '.._' vJ,. .' -- W"? n
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ex:--Zr o'clock up until 6:.JO or 6:39 of the following morning. &.'n:Ls
f_ X4" .'l'_.r'.'..r1f the middle of the week, possibly on a 'Ihursdn;,* of the Lest
_' -not-21: in 1-arch, daring which titre Bf.l"IHl£.*.Z and I completed the 31.2.1:-=-F
report. This was completed in two rooms which I had rerstod, or engaged,
' 2. be Potel Sew Yorker. I cannot recall whatmme I used; it may very
well haw-= been F316;? ICFESLLIRR. There is some possibility that 1 used
the mm-e BAR.-{Y COLD, and also some possibility that I may have used
the name I-1-ZRTIIS, either.as e first or second name. 1- rather think, hol-
I
1. ever, that it was the name P'RA'.E HRSSLKR that I used. I an also not
too certair. whether it was one or two rooms. in any event, we stayed
up all night. My part in the completion of the report was r:uI2.nal; I
was merely another pair of hémds while BR3'I'H151i§ did a great deal of
armotating and typing. BR.O'ZHf.'.--...' brought a portable typewriter and a
whole suitcase full of data. The report was not quite complete at
6:33, but we were exhausted, and we went to bed, and about 9:30 or 10:00
o'clock, B.'ROTEC.£F.££ went into cork at the Hendrick Company. This was a
rainy day; 1 nscall very well going out for something to eat and getting
drenched. Ii-13TI{..3.fJ; returned about 6:00 or 6:30 in the evening and we
completed the assembling of the h-1a_-S report. Also with this report,
which included possibly 20-1! typewritten pages, possibly more, were a
great ma-so of blueprints. These blueprints covered not only the out- .
" line or the flow sheet oi the process, but many details of COZ15'CI.lCt.iOI1
of the various urits, especially the very important one of the oiiclymerim
92where the Burma-5 latex or the i.ty'nene-Butaditerm folymeryblt is likely
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.1; 1.. L1 ts we,-re :.ot conplem as far as the ii:.r.L rlztails r:;r.t,
b-.41 I do lzror that included in tnis were many of the units completely
designed and ale: the design of the actual plant or bui1rli:1,3 housing
1.11: equipment. l oelieve that the plant was aoteally designed for
tne B. F. Goodrich Company, though there in com possibility that it
was designed for the United states: Rubber Company, in Eaugatuck, Cor.-
rccticut. I would also like to state her! very definitely that f he
1}.;¢:~._.:1<>n ;'§i.VF!!'1 in the written Section in the 2.30 or 333 0;-"peW:'ibter.
pages was as complete as it was possible to be. This ixsformation I
turned over to S1." at a'o::".1t 7:03 or 7:15 that evening. The occasion
of the transfer was on dixth l-venue and 23rd Street. It was in front
of a Horn and Fa:-dart's, a very large one, which is to the best of rrgr
mezzrory, on 23rd Street, very hear 6th Avenue, though it r.-:21." be 14th
street, mar 6th Avenue. This is a vary large Horn and iiardm-t's ;~.es-
taurant, and is, 1 believe, principally an automat. I wish to emphasize
here that both the blueprints given to ms by IM§lHi.£Ai! and I would say
that these wane possibly some 15 in number, and the report, itself, some
203 or 300 typevrritt-en pages, were very closely tmwritten and
were not double spaced, were incl-oded in the materiel which I turned
over to SA}! on this rainy evening in very late -tiaroh oi 1942, lwould
like to add here that during the period from the first of Jan1m'}' 1942,
u:.t'L1 late Larch, B.'1Z92Ih1.I£..i did, at various times, give mg j_n,{0rzn;1j_on
relttinf to Buna-S. This consisted of quite an amount of material both
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1;. 2;-_'..l. and in content. It included a ow sheet for the ztlnufactre
of b'::,r.-S with the name Dewey end Almy Company of 5-e.mbrid;*=, LL-sso:..c1"..;-.etts
Ihis is dated, I believe, in early 1912'... lhero was also 8 mooverj
r;'.1te:. for the two principal materials needed in making Buns-L, that is,
Butadirene and Styrene; a layout of the equipmem, that is, the outline
oi just where the particular mits were to be located in L1: acts;-.'L
plant. Toe:-e was also a considerable mass of written material, includ-
ing 21¢ 30 or 40 page outline oi the Buns-S Polymerization process. 51$
material woo in BP.C!'2H1.*.AL.'s ct; distinctive and rather small h::.Jr.'.":*L.ting.
Ivonr: of this material was ever turned over to 81.1., nor did I evor maize
my effort to do so, because of SA1"s insistence or. a couplets process
or nothing at all. I did not re.-L~.1se this material when BP.I3'l'E.;.".'Z pave
it to ms because I did not wish to offend him, and also because one of
the reasons that he may have =ivan it to me was for later use we
finally wrote the report. I believe there was also during this time,
an ssjreement among us that before the final report was suhoitteci, that
we would go over it together. Possibly, this agreement did not exist
initially when 1 was extremely optimistic about obtaining the whole
story, but it did exist during liaroh. All of the abov-:1 material that
I have mentioned both blueyrints and the written material, have boon
f0.1r1d in my hone, and I have since identified this material to agents
;.TIiI..E.It and 1~1RF.!5Ii.-RI of the I- ode:-al Bureau of Investigation.
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K.Jomtime alter this, am; subseqaent to the 202%. cl -~p:'i.L,
l?.".2, I was told by SAL to 1531:". certain to £:ongr:1t'.1_late encl praise
BE£.31'.~L'.;;. because of the information he had turned over, and to tell
hir. that it ma been received in the Soviet Union, anfihacl bee: hailed
as a remarkable, extremely valuable piece of work, and that the word was
that it was so complete, the info:-zation, that is, that tee -Joviote lam
ilnecliately beginning, to set up a plant for the manufacture oi Ba.-1a-5.
I believe that I may have had one core meeting v:i"..'n SI-.,-'1Eh...-'.I., or
at least a telephone conversation with him, subsequent to the setter of
completirggéwna-Syiaw Larch. This occurred proba.bl3"vc:j,' ea.r1§' 1- .
April, and at this time, I -told him that I was deIir.itely going to
the west Coast and that I would say goodby. I also told him that some-
one would take my place. Actl:;1l}', the eozeone that I had in r_ir»:1 was
a mar. by the name o£_ '1':-IQLEAS L. EIACK. This matter I discussed 11"-.th BLACK
on e tr;-.511 from Philadelphia to New Yorlz. At this tine, 1- was certain
that 1 would go into the service. I was in excellent shape physically
ari :7 i'a::.i_ly doctor who was forraerly on the examining staff of phy-
sicians at one of the draft boards had assured me that even hypxartension
was not sufficiently great to bar my being taken in. It will he recalled
t'n:-t at this time, the bottom of the barrel was literally heirs; scraped.
It was upon this occasion, the train trip to iicw York, e.1.- also the
oooe.:i.on of cw lost meeting with SLR before going up for ;>h3'e5.cal
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W1-»?#' mwowe.»:=".,;|.:.;.-;.Lc:; for the draft, that 1 discussed this matter v.':'_'h?. ?-..z:._.
I tclz. zmcz: 1.11.-11; -I ma not yer. motioned mé matter to or to Q
S.o92"iEt coztact. M. this tin", I do not thin}; that I realiz:-"-d th.aa Sh!
also lzwwr BLACK, but I at least had in mad racowncn-ding to Ti-1' out
BI.-f.'I'.I' be nppotxted to follow m with BTt'.TH}.'J£i. I bold BLACK that HYPE-
Ht was an extremely able ani capable man.' In fact, act xzlly, ho was
very brilliant, but that the matter of personality or personalities
ant/arml a great deal into dealing with him. I told him tho; he sr-mild
rm. maize the mistake that I had made of becoming too frienjr with
BE3TT.l'.-J~I. I not only identified to BLACK, bat 3 gaw him his
complete name, whore he worked, -the telephone number, he lived,
tine bclephcno nuzber there, mo a good deal of additional data concern-
ing his child ELSL, and his wife. I do not recall I1 .£!'U}ffZ tic second
child, A?-IITA, had yet been born at this tima. I told B11161; that he IU*~..1:i
haw to take Yhc initiative and act in a very stern, but fair manor,
but above all, to keep BRfJTi{;.'i;I ic line to try to insist, that I3F.3TII1J.I2
mt h'_:: at. a specified place awd time, not near tho Hendrick Cc::_'m~'1y in
the dcmtow. district, but as a matter of disciplinc to make it a good
rii5oE:'1t:a away and also, should B?¢*&"I'I!1'A; be late, not. to wait. for him,
but to call hilt on a subsequent occasion and literal1y"1"i{> him up."BLACK agreed to this and said that er 1+. could be worm-1% n{¬ &{f1':4::tm*
that ho could handle BZTH1.'.A.E quite well. I said goodby to 5.511 and than
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_/*vent ur for my draft exnrrsinatin, where to my surprise, I was definitely
ans. 1'-Lrzslly classified 4-? due to my hypertension. I ha-:1 had 2:. alter-
:1:-.te meetinft with QAL in case I should not be called for the d:'c.:Zt, or
more lixccly, in case there should be a brief time, say a ask or seven
clays postponement of any actual induction. At this time, t _._- me
ts again. resum contact viih BT"£ 2;'3S and emphasized that we most con-
tinue to get more information on Buna-S. Ibis seemed to be all that spa:
was interested in. I thersupor called ssccexlr and told him that I
we no longer going to be transformed to California, but would see him
again, and on the occasion of this subsequent mating, which again, I
bclieva, was in the downtowrl part of Hen Yo:-1;, around Qiurch Stmst,
Efiieki told EB that he was having; great difficulty at the Hcr1d.*ick
Company. The next two or three scheduled meetings Irith B3iT1'1':I..;t" did
not take place. This brings us well into May, or possibly early June.
On all of these occasions, when I called the office, not only was he. W", ,,..4 ciu~.l .
not there, but W.-.1i~1R also; and on one occasion, I was given another
number to call. On one other occaion, 1 called his wife, LAOLII, and
she said that I-.5; was .10.-king late and when 1 said that he was not in -
the office, she said that he was in his'cther office; This other office
I subscfiuently discovered to be that of IEFIRY SOLE???-FE, and is in the
3.:"a3'bar Puiliing, Blew York City. I finally did meet BRO'lEElF.YI at a place
that he requested which was in the 3:-and Central Station in one of the
may small drug stores or luncheonettes. He told me that he was con-
sidering leaving the Hendrick Company because of the bad my in which
t'n-2;; hzd used him.
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Lhis story was that Hendrick had given s raise to e92*sI1'c.':"
the organization as a result of obtaining the Buns-S contract, but that
he and had conspicuously been left out. He said that the reason
for this was that he had insisted on giving the Eubber Comdssim
in --ashington, on the occasion of sf-1%" conference in April, corxzplete
process in: emotion on the Hendrick Buns-S process. I should like to
state that according to BROTH};;.'l, the original process data on Buns--S,
came from, most likely, the Standard Oil Goupilrly of hen: Jersey, or the
United States Rubber Company. The story that 1'57-1¬J'.1"r£P-Ii gave ms on 3
subsequent meeting conflicted some-what with the first story; that is,
of his desire to leave Hendrick because of the Buna--E5 information which
he had insisted be made available to all of the firms participating
in the rubber research plan. fhis concerned p1"inCip£1].l§' the fact that
he had not been granted a raise, that is, both he and $75532. Ho than
told ms of this mam, HENRY GOL..'Y2H¬E-., who he-d, about a year previous,
had some work ciooe for him by H2J'I'I.£!£¬! that is, in EIt£3~I1;.'-.'I's capacity
of design engineer for the Hendrick Company, and who had become greatly
ztmpress-rd at BELOTI£'.£.31'e ability and who had now made BR'>TEiLi£Z an offer
to go into partnership with him.
BP.3'21.'.at>! also stated that he had insisted that if he were to
go along, that ARTIE WEBER go with him, and GI!L1=»"1'ZZ!~l'f"1 had agreed to T2118.
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Emere followed at least two other matings which did not tsks
plco dd:-ing; this tine. I had reported to the fact that
we: considering leav-.i.r.g the Hendrick Company, and Sid grew vex? anxious
about this whole business. He kept impressing or: me the iect that under
no circumstances was I to perm-it Bi:O2'1DJ;§ to leave Hendrick, that I
unis-I; }- _ !-L .7 -a _ 4 ' . -I ta.oe-p won. '15 there, as we were extremely mnoos to out:-.i: all
possible further developments on Buna-S, and that this was to be B11013-
1Z!.'f'e task. I told B?.3THl1A'I about this and he just laughed and
that the Buns-S was complete; that what sort of-inforznatioti was
- hubto be handed over? He had designed the plant and the plarfrust
QM?off like clock work ancigthat it was done, that he was now going;sand
thare
ticked
on to
much greater things. He also told be a third corflictirig story. This
was to the effect that he had already agreed to leave, or told Hendrick
that ho was leaving them and going with ootwxuns, and that Hendrick had
than offered to give him a substantial raise beyond that which anyone
else had reoeived_,and $535.! as well, and that it had merely bten dropped
on his desk by one of the officials of the company and that B?.3'£H;;;.!Z had,
in front of that man, pidkad it up, crumpled it into a roll and dropped
it into a waste basket. He later told me that Hendrick had closed the
files to him, and did not at this time mention any-th_i_ng about the pro-
posed offer of the raise. It was n;t to much the actual incidents
th: zszelves, as the manner in which they were told that makes ma state
92.
that they were conflicting stories. In any event, I recall clearly in
hm-1, possibly late June, meeting; with BFt3TH1.5k¬ near the Hendrlcl: Company
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92t:"3' 1;. in the ew:n"I.::,"_; about 10130 o'clock, anzi ta§i:ir1C '1 1°32 -~'='J-if
up s.:..; down Sixth Avenge, startim with Us reet. luring thin
tJ.rw=, FP.OIH!lAZI explained to me of his gr-and hopes for future and
ms very enthusiastic about the various plants ho was going to build
|...:--ass woo 5¢*""*" '
while he worked for the Chexmrgy -esign Corporation, he cild, however,
ofjer to consider the possibility oi still working for ihni-*ic1: oni
told no that he was going to make an arrangement with Hendrick whereby
he 'v'~'IJJ.ld be a consultant for than on s part time basis. It is Q belie
that no such arrangement was over concluded and that in fact, iZo:,<i.'*.*.ck
had barred the office to him. Tnis, to a certain extent, satisfied
me. but when I told SA}; about it, he was wild, and finally said, "..==ll,
]sts see what happens." He said, "loll him while he is at Chssurggr,
to try and concentrate on gettinf; Bima-S contracts, if he can." .-.ppe.m
the one thing, that SAIL thought about was the Buns-S.
About this time, H-°.O1':£._.L." started to tall me,a:'1d the tixm was
actually about the time that he was leaving Chemo:-gfy, of the design of
certain pieces oi mixing equigxnont. fnis had some about as a resultIn.
|, ¢;.92=nvz
f A/nu-1
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of sons statements that H.=l3I'Z~IL1AI*. had nude in his Buns-S report, regard-
iw mixing and whiotz had aroused the interest of sons 83'!-'_i.I1C!I"3 in the
loviot Union, so much so that a request had come from them, osling for;i
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further information, and this request in turnnss ralaysd to :2: by SAM. _
Unis is not a matter or a conclusion that I have pieced tog*t1'm~, but
is tins result of a clear bit of memory or recollection on my part as to
-.27 _
in-'1-_-@_ ._...-.__.. .-s; aotlal incident that occurred during this period of Lay or Jwze
19.!,.2, and during a conversation with SAL. I might add here that Z1151
had told me that on the very day or the very night, rather, that I
had turned over the informtio: on Buna-S, this rainy e92"-"-'1if1¬ in 1'-¥'Z¢h,
that that VB!"j evening the material had been sent on its way to the
Joviet Union.
1 would like to note hem that the Buna-S in.forn:;.tion supplied
_ .95 74-H-by BR._-WI concerned a continuous process as opposed to a 5..-eaeo
process. This meant that smaller il.m092mt8 of material were handled at
any one particular moment, but that in spite of the decreased size of
the equipment the actual output 24 hours was tremendously in-
creased, and there was also a terrific saving in the materials of con-
striction of the equipment and in the manpower required to operate the
plant.
I would like to add one point here, that while I§l~'{Z!'£E£L!QZ had
succeeded. in convincing me that he would still be doing work for Hendrick,
inn I told SAL about this, insisted that it was just a dodge on
BROTf{'£.?"e part. 1"-t this time, as I have stated before, cane the re-
quest from SAL5 for information on the r.ixing equipment. Again there
resulted e long period oi matings, in which no information was turned
over or the information was extremely fragmentary, or meetings which did
not occur at all in which I showed up but BRO'IfEfL.Al{ did not, and &r1"enge
mate -.1-ith SA! for the transfer of the information should I get it. I
met JAE. but did not have the infometion, of course, and finally, in
the late fall oi 191.2, I would say about October, and poSSibly --ovember
of 19$, . .1:-
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_ B-as A: . .ii.-1 a.:.x...i.ily o large notebook with rings some two to t::ot f.r.ch=."s
in d..La.r.§'bEI' and which contained a very complete exposition of P'.i.".';L.L'T'e
war}: or. nzixing. This included, again, about 330 tymvrritten pages,
son: 50 to l-DO nomographs to be used in the various calculatione in-
volved in designing mixing equipment, and a great mes of 1-ep:'i'1t'#oi
articles which BF.C~'I'r5L.-'-.3. had written on mixing. These were mostly :.g';;.
Ic draw-Hill Publioatione, such asfghemical and kietalurgical Enjineering
cs.-Z-Brocess §ngincerL'1g and"foo:1 Et;;;-_neeri.n'g: These three are separate
journals. There was also a large mass oi material consisting oi adver-
tising brochures of a technical nature, but which contained much valuable
data. It all presented a very complete story on the subject of mixing,
oossibly the most mdnmental unit operation in chemical engineering,
since all chemical engineering processes involve at Bone etage or other
the bringing together of two materials in as intimate a contact as
possible so that as complete a reactionnn;na¬r"ta{ce5 place and without the
production oif any undesirable b'_{'-pI'Od1.1CtS-
I would like to state here that it was in general, S!-Z.I'sJa1d
not only SA1.1'e, but the policy of allzof the doviete that I have known,
never to accept an individual: v.-or}: on its own merits. .'.'net chef were
inierested in, and this will be repeated again and again, was industrial
and technical information of mach a nature that it was already in use _
in a pleat or was designed for use in a plant which was being enacted, ._
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at: may often emphasized to ms, -'7-5.1- and the others, that they would
::'r.1c:. rather be satisfied with something which was slightly out 0:. date
but wrhich worked, and was non worlzinglas opposed to sor:nt".'_z:;_' which
contained many arlvances or improvsm-r~.ts, but which was st-E 1:: the
tlmoretical or experimental state. The reason for the acceptance of
BED'I'Hl'f-'1 s material on mixing was that it obviously bore the stamp
of having; been completed for the use of various industries and chaaic.
plants in tho United States.
Again, I would like to emphasize or rather to bring up this
point that all that BRUTI-'.L'A3¬ ever submitted to me was always mat-=-rial
which he would have had to complete for his, at that time, legitirzzta
employer. It was then} because of the fact that the info:-nation was
intended for use in the United itates and had been accepted by many
authorities as being valuable, that SA}; was so interested in the mix-
ing dates and there was always the fact that a direct request had come 6_
from the Soviet Union for this material. 1 turned this matz=rial:gv:r'"WJ
to SAL, in I recall, the Ferris Wheel Bar. I recall this incident very
clearly. It was a rather cold evening in the late fall or possibly
early winter, but I believe that it was late fall as it was not yet
December. The latest that it ras was December, and I recall having .
u92*""" phi -'this buliqy p&Ck&gBv:92:OI!B five inches in thiclmess, by*l8 inches in
F5091-lenrth, and!-about 14 inches in width, containing this mizcing equipment
anl I recall having set it on a seat next to ma. he mm not
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j.. ,oea... Q»-..;.. oer; we never sat at tie bar, but at one of the 5.1.11 t:.':.l;;.,
and I had laid it on one of the empty chairs at our table, and had
-ut a newspaper on top of it in an unsuccessful effort in a gmertinl
cowcaalnent. took the material with him, when I left, and
the newspaper on the outside, he carried it under his arm and the mater-
iel next to his body. Tnis was on the same d-ay that 3- received the
maierlal from I¥13'l"rE.i.kI.'. Efnen 1 received the material from B5.;£'d..'Al,
it 1r:.c_ all its this large looseleaf notebook, and I subsequently pox-
:~.-haseci some wrapping paper at a stationery store. This stztioaery store
was and ca.-.1. still be, on 42nd Street, on the south side, just east oi
Lexington Avenue, and between Iexington and Third wenue. It is pos-
sible that the two proprietors of this little store may recall my face.
In cormection with the fragments of information r-l:.t.~_.-:5 to
the mixing equipnent which B.-£311-II.'.f.1£ gave me between July and October or
November, when the completed report was handed in, I would like to
state that I kept all, or possibly almost all, of this material in
my ham, and that this has since been found in my home and has been
identified by me to Agents ILILLEIZ and HRE!$?ZA!I of the Federal Baroau
of Investigation. This material consists oi handwritten sections in
11:5 handwriting relating to the theory of mixing. There are some 40
or 50 pr.-gap total; handwritten sections in 1%5;'3'Ii{§-3.2I's haxudvrriting ra-
latin-; tq'the theory of mixing, these are some possibly 25 or 33 pages; '
4
and a wiriety of typewritten material also relating to mixirig equipment.
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'_.o~.'-e were also some elementer;-' I1-.etcnes, principally dram by .¬f."$."1~I..;!ZI,oF1I*f RE-W"-T,» 7
:..-.5. 5:. toe bod,-,-f' the theory mlating to u=.ixing. ilone oi this 1::.teria.1
was aver turned over to SL1. because Oflthe previously explained ricot-
imoe or 1:3 pert to ever again f_"§.92?B SF-II a fragnzent frcxr. BE{=."3.2F.'.'.
_ Agaixi, I would like to mention hers that SAL told me that the
material was just in time to be carried to the soviet Union. The snot
:;;3.';.'13 of transportation, I do .1ot know; whether it was by boot or portly
bf plane! or just who was to carry it, but I do know this, that on
occasions, when BRO'IHLL££i had promised ir-Iormtion beginning with the
time that l met him in late 1941, and up until the time that 1 fine-.1.ly
su'tz:1itted the mixing equipment data, I was advised at variou_*; tines, By -"""=
that if the work could be completed by a certain data and hour, th:-.t it
1r:>uJ_d be possible for it to "make the next boat."
_.Aii told me on the occasion! oi a subsequent neetirlg tint the
information on mixing equipment was very good indeed, that he had per-
sonly inspected a good deal of it, though not all, since that wcnld
have talen too long. I believe that possibly hero I have confir-z:;.tion
of the fact that SA}: was, by training, a mechanical engineer. Ha may
also have told me that the information had been wall received in the
.-o-»'i.et Union, but certainly he did motion, on the occasion of the next
event which concerned a meeting between SAL, B?»o'I?LLAi¬ and myself, and
which took place in either late November or early December of 1942,
though there is some possibility that it may have been early January e
oi 1943, that it had been well received. This meeting was a pro-arranged
onobnd took p7ace in the Lincoln Hotel on 8th Avenue, above éid 1-treat
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Ylkin ~-E19 iork City. i engaged a suite oi rooms, actually only t..o, ior
t:.i: occasion. I cannot recall the news tahich I used but 3- believe
afmir that it was FnA*iK 1'-ESSLIZFL. I do not believe that with E-ii. there
I would have used my om name, mere is again the possibility that
I may have used the name EARTEJ. but again, I dor1 b believe that I
did so because SA!" knew that I was meeting SLACK under the name of '
1J&1'fIZ'I. lbs purpose of this meeting had been carefully discussed with
before I suggested it to I-3hl.'»'TI*12.'J-J5, and I88 essentially to be in
the nature of a pep talk for B.=1U1P.1.4.§ given by SAE. 1 was to represent
SJ; as I visiting Soviet dignitary and possibly there may have been some
hint that he Iran a military visitor, or certainly at least a techrical
man. Toe whole idea of the meeting was to cutter 111:5 K132}? 'AlI .50 that
he would work on processes in which we were interested, and right even
obtain work with a firm or firms in say, the field of synthetic rubber,
or possibly some other field in which he might have worked where the
irlormttion would have been oi interest to the Soviet Union.» '£'£"LTl"rI}.I.4'-.E~I
ro:.:3ily agreed to this meeting and it tool: place as I have descnibed,
most likely in late riovember or possibly early December, with a still
i1:rtner possibility of early January oi 191.3.
I had previcusly told BFZDTHIJAFJ that great interest had been
shown in the Soviet Union on aecourt of the two manioent pieces of
wort: that he had done in connection with Buns-S and with the n:i:cLng
e_;uip.»-mt, and that as a result, a Soviet dignitaufy had been sent here _
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vith the special purpose oi meeting BR3'Z'F.'J. arid cmvertifj lth
m-an v-no had done such fine work. I stated that this mar. was here in
cozm ction with some other ostensiblemd legitimate reasons and that
hr mas a very high official indeed, but that the main porous of his
5&5 to see momma: and %erlm him. To this, mascot
readily agreed. Tne meeting too}: place as planned with one exception.
I tried first to engage a room in the Hotel I;e1r Yorker and wee u:muccese-
fol 2.:-_ 1'ina'.Ll;»' managed to get one at the l.inco2:1._ I than net C.-Q at
the I-ew Yorker and told him that I had engaged rooms at the Lincoln
and he than told me to get in touch with B?£OTHL-12%. I did so and called
I3TZ'.I.-£.1!..' at his office and told him to meet me in the lobby of the
Lincoln Hotel. BR3TH:_'AZZ did so; I would say the hour was about 8:30,
and m went up to the rooms. I do not knew SA!-J's exact wiiezweelzcrits at
that particular time. He may even have been in the lobtgr of the Lincolxl
because I recall that at a lamr tine, he told of hating seen B.'1£!;"1I..'.!-.2;
and me going upstairs. In any event,h2 cam up within about 15 or 20
nztnutes. That was somewhere close to 9:03 o'clock, and I ed.*nj.tted him.
I introduced him to BROi'HImE as GEORGE. I do not believe that I used
the name SALE. Tnem is also the possibility that I may have used the
name 5:5. 533.1015, but then again l believe that SIJOZI was the mm under
vrfzich I introduced SAL to AL SIACIZ on another twee-fold metiwg.
'1.AL' W"-15 e>:tr-enely genial and expansive during this meeting. lie .
v.=f.;-is generally of that character but he Quwid himself this time. He
celled up and had some wine and scxze sandwiches sent up. Tie then proceeded
-34-?
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t:- toll: until one, possibly two o'clock in the morning. Ii rather fancy
th: lattr.-r hour. A good deal oi the suoject- matter of Liv corwersetion
concemed praise by SAL. of the excellent work which B'D .2*I.l.'..'; had
It also concerned a good deal oi conversation on the stfnjcct of mathe-
matics and the apolication oi r..athe:.atics to practical _oronl¢=.:.=.': in
e.~.§.'i'1ecx'ir.;;. By this, I melt. the application of certain fields of
mathematics which are not commonly used. SAL very gently and ext:-e.mely
orr:.tic£.ly hinted to BH3'J£ZF{T, or put over the thought, that BRZ"l"H!.£!QI
shzmlc. try to get work in fields L-. which the Soviets were interested,
particularly fields relating to military endeavor, or military equip-
ment, and also the inevitable Euna-S. I believe, however, thal- here
may have come the first hi:1t',and this is purely one that i am evolving
in retrospect-!o£' the interest; oi the Soviets in Atomic energy, and that
concerned the length oi time spent in discussing, mathematics and the
application oi" mathematics to vzcious fields, imd also there may have
been scmo conversation relating; to E£~I-3-1'H'eA5;'s acquaintance with Dr.
HAPJLD UPEY at Columbia University. I believe that hem EEiC'I}L.£II Stated
to Sil-'. that he was a former pupil oi Dr. U£E.E'e. I would lim to state
hone that I am not confusing this incident with Dr. BER.-IARD KOJI1.I!i, and
that 1-.-111.18 I an evolving this 1.-1 retrospect, I am quite cez'tain that it
did occor. I am emphasizing this because that at this time, had no
idea that anything was going on in regard to Atomic Energy in the United
Statea. It is possible that SAL-Z did, as early a date as this, have some
definite information. Also thcrr occurred hens a promise by SAL of
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»c.l;e:il.;1g B1C2IE-L.A;; all of the aid possible in regard to tho physical
task oi setting; information on paper. This includezi stencfrajsbic
s=-rwélcoc, and this matter I will take up shortly. One slip OCC'.L.'!LC'§
-.; the meeting, md I do not think it was due to the wine, because
I nci , occasionally, seen Sic; consume far more alcoholic hovers;-as
tE::'_'". tn:"- two glasses of wine that he had, and that occurred when SAL
one" referred to mo. as HJ~.RP.i', not RATIII. He quickly cover-ozl up, how-
ever, but I do recall this slip.
Ls I have stated, we put in some five hours together. A good
deal cf the talk was on matters cazpletely unrelated to tn: subject of
espiozaege and concerned. a great deal of conversation b;' 55.1.1, conccming
the true state of the Soviet forces in combat with the Germans; a great
deal of irrelevant dete".ils concerning life in the ooviet Union, and
inevitably, since LEAK was a skilled convarsationalist and k-new enough
not to monopolize any -such occasion, a tremendous amount of talk by
B.'if I.YE.f.'.I on his accomplishments in the past. Hera, IE!BIi£{'_ Q¬i to skill-
fully, I thought, interject how much more ED'li._1J¬ could do in the future
w EEfol1w instructions. This was extremely expertly done
and I don't think it would have boon detected by anyone except one who
_ ,1 G A/_g;;n¢. u/.15/+7|.w=M-T1"?had ha: ouch a long and relationship with R'l7"ZP£L'..923
mrardinj the obtaining of in:"orr:¢ tion for the Soviet Union.
Khan we left, I recalloll the incident very clearly, azarri we all
rant downstairs to the lobby. SA]; took a cab and headed uptown and
iin:.1l3 BROTH1-,1£Q; took a cab. He was so elated, that he was going back
to the Chemurgy offices to work for the rest of the night.
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I believe that l stayed over in the rooc until the morning
si-aw it was too late to get a train, and then I finally got a train
at 6:32! or 7:00 o'clock the following morning for Philadelphia.
The next event that transpired was the matter of the Aerosol
Bomb or Aerosol Dispenser for insecticides. In CO"L'lQC6iOI'. with this,
ahich occurred early in 19.13, I would like to state that on the occasion
of subsequent meetings, BRQTFHJJJZ kept asking me for the Soviet ston-
ographer, and I, in turn, inept asking SLLL. As far as B -.3'lI-Zl.'.1.IL lmew,
however, SAL-., or GEORGE as he lmew him, had returned to the -»oviet
Union. SAL wanted to know what I:3'£'J'1";-I1.-MC wanted to work on and I told
him that it was in connection with a dispenser for insecticides known as
the Aerosol Bomb. This was a gadget!simple in design, but capable of
producing a vary fine, almost colloidal fog of s carrier and an insect-
icide which had the property of remaining suspended in the atmosphere
in s closed room or tent for some 16 to 18 hours. Such was axtranely
useful for the troops overseas in the Pacific areas.
Tfnen I told SM; about this, however, he was totally urxirztsrested,
possibly because of the fact that while the Soviet Troops were, it is
true, fighting under extremely unsanitary conditions, still they were
usually engaged in either temperate or extremely cold climates. Also,
5.1.1. was interested in things of a more direct military nature. He said
to simply let it go and let EB.O'l'r£|.1A!¬ prepare tne material as best as rm
could himself, and also said that I was not to help him. ever, to s
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I--'.in t."£: pe'-son oi Lisa JEIIIL IZICKA, who at that_.I;.,; '.."L..L. B?.3'1'I~P..;..'I, I had to obtain s-tomographic h
. . I I ' H
v believe Hackensaclz, New Jame,
not very far from evrsriz, lieu:
RTZICEZE. through my friend T31
I hi.-Ci considered using one oi, or in that area.
Jr~:~se3'. l obtained
HL!.CEZ, and this wasslp, mi iii so
tine, lived in, 1
Ia. any event, it was
the Service: of liss
s last desporstion move
the girls at the §"e:1nsYlva:;.'92.a ;3~.r_js.r Company
but had Then decided that this would m too expensive a maneuver, taking
H3513,girl; up to flew iorl: en: ramming Tois also was too d;_.".-_"c:-o.;s
in that might begin to wonder e little too much about my activities.
Bl.=.C3' finally recomnenzled Kiss RUZICKA who was possibly, at that time,
engaged in working part time, possibly one day 5. week, for, I believe,
the I-cw Jersey .-State Labor Board or the -itate Board of I}ns:r._3loymnt
Compensation. She was a very young girl, shout 16 or l7, and 61-f'é1"=3ZBlY
inexperienced as a atenogrspher. hot only {was she incapable oi coping
with the technical terms involved, this I had rather expected, but she
could also not take even the simplest sentence in direct dictation
without making several errors. The result was that she would type up
the material which BRO'lT-BUG! wozild dictate and in which I would put
handwritten w: rds, and so on, which I thought would be too difficult
for her, and would than submit it to me and I would than correct it as
well as I could. It was so hopelessly jumbled that it always required
a second session of dictating and going over and finally she would
succeed in getting the story straight. After possibly two OI three 1
5 .211 attempts, she would than mail this material to my home in - 'hil-
aieljoizia .
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The m:.-eti:.;;s or the sessions "..'"Lth and Llis" 3"1.'ZICi1A
and znyself took place in the Chexzmrgy offices in the Grayhsr Emilding,
7'/+151-law York. more were possibly four such meetings. '1-aeee , I believe,
7:91: t11= ma.ximun".; there may have only been three. There $2550 one
or two occasions in which BZ.3£Hl.§AZ. did not show up at all and JTIJIIJII
and 1 merely sat in the Grand Central Station and waited for unreason-
ably long periods of time, until I decided to send her hozns. l would
lino to state that she was completely un:Ca:r.iliar with lie-r: iori: City,
and very nmch confused. She was very young, as 4- have said, and be-
cause BLACK had told me to be very sure that zhe got home safely, I
always made it a point to ride with her to Newark and to give her an
extra dollar so that she could have cab fare home. _I paid for the
trswportstion between Iie-war}: and Iiew York, and i also paid her, I
believe, the sum oi 310 for each meeting, even for those in which no
meeting with BRO'1'.~I}.'J».N occurred. The whole affair was so obviously ri-
diculous that BRSTH}LAIi and I gave it up by cannon consent. E: Qving
it up, the whole thing, I mean continuing to use the services of Lisa
F-.J'Z.1CKA. I did a considerable amount oi work subsequent to this, how-
ever, usually on F-und.ay mornings, with monnsse in the Chenmrgy offices
in which I took down handwritten notes from what ERO'Ii£.'.A!I said concern-
ing the aerosol process. There has since turned up in my home a con-
siderahle amount of such material as well as some of the typewritten
date as conplewd by J -IZ2.'1'F. IIUIIICYJL. The materiel, aside from that
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t:'_rr».-21 by kiss RIZZICIIA, consists of notes by both myself and 13.7.;
The EL-1"Z'.EIL'oL material is in his writing; and contains, 1:: adiitio: to
the w:';Lt"2.on data, the 69$-13": of several othar aerosol dipensors such as
thc 1.csti.".;;ho92:.$1=.- ax.-:1 the Perszsylvarzis PI:.;,-moor nodal aerosol d.s;:-;:~.s
Those sketches were made by BPJTHIL.-'.Tf and I have idsntifiod thr-1: as such
to ¢.;'snt5 L'ILLTEi and BRELJIZAEI oi the Federal Bureau of ln*;'<=s.$.'_'ation.
' In addition to the dispenser, there have been found, in my home,
¢ r1~1d .§-;a'%§'é'r =1¢v1ss dosigied by ssomoct for refillfuug of the asrosol
dispensers in the field. '..nis was 5:: the for: oi several hlueprrirots.
3-Jone of this material Y3-Z2 evsr turned over to SAL or any other agent
of the soviet Union. I accepw this material from BRf>IHL£!-.I.' because I
am not wish to antagonize hm, as 1 surely would ha:re dons, had I turned
down this work.o
The next happening that occurred was that of the nagztssiusr. powder
This concerns the production of an extremely fine magpnesimz powder such
as is used in flares and in tracer lmllots. The idea had its genesis
with H2!;FX GOLT-1'21 _. who thought that mamesium powder coulci be pro-
duced by tho follovring; process; that is, spraying the molten zr.a;'no.siu.':
into a chamber containing an inert gas such as nitrogen or helium. The
spraying was to occur through extremely fine orifices or nozzles, and the
2".-&f?1sSi92m. would form extremely fine globules or particles it this tort
atx-.c:pher's, and would fall to tho bottom: of the chamber contcintng the
inert atmosphere from which it coJ.ld than be continuously removed and _
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;-":T-:.**-".1. SJCY! 1 process was a great improvement over the traditional
metnoi oi producing powders from ingots whereby a series of, seyleight
or 12 attrition I-1lChi:!55!aIB set up and the particles are S.1cce555N-YE?
reduced Smaller and smaller in size umtil the desired .['L'1e?'ieSs is
attained. There is then involved the :11-oblem of sieving out the large
particles and returning them to the machines for further grinding. Also,
the matter of grinding magnesium is not too happy an affair because of
the danger of fire from the very smell particles produced.
It was BR-3'lIL'.A!£'s job to design this process, I telieve, it
was intended for use in Australia but there may have also been the
understanding that GOISWEINE was going to try to sell this to the United
.3tc-.tas Government. Here again, EROTEQLAN employed his non familiar dil-
story tactics. This matter cane about, that is, the magnesium powder,
as a result of a process volunteered to me without any prom-'15 on my
part by ABE BROTH1.1A?I. That is, a process which was valuable in a mil-
itary sense. I believe that it may have also come about as a result of
something that I may have told BROTZB-Um? relating to the fact that as
interesting as the aerosol bomb was, it was still not too important mil-
itarily speaking, to the 5-ovist Union. In spite of BE£O'Iz{l-.'J.I."s delaying
actions and promises which kept recurring, of having the é:<?-iinforrstion
in one complete story ready on any one of a number of occasions, this
never occurred. There have, however, been fozmd in us" home some five
-41-
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or 21;: handwritoen pages in my r.r'I_1;ing, concerning the r.'..n;"1esiun. pordcr
process. Tnir is just the beginning of the process, the prcli-n.5.:.a1';~;
O:..lC.ll&'Li 'I'1S. Tnere ia also in my handwriting a diagram and some no-
tations in h;.LTr3.h~»I-"5 handwriting. There has also been .{O.1n¬i some frag-
n.e;1ta:";' single sheets in B-»eI'IL'.I.';'s handwriting concerning calculetions
on the raagnesiurr. powder process.
I would like to state now that while SAX was not much interested
in the aerosol dispenser, yet he did, in the beginning, evidence some
d.9_'*re= of concern or enthusiast concerning the magnosizm p31?-I83 _nroces:s.
Homevar, as weeks passed into months, and no complete process was avail-
able, finally on one occasion, I brought up the matter of both, the
powder and the aerosol dispenser, to SALI, and finally JAE. be-
came very angry about this because, while I had previously given SA]!
to understani that both the aerosol, and the magnesimn powder, in par-
ticuJ..:r, were the subject of interest on the part of other people be-
side GOEZYME and BROTHl'.1J3, that at this time I made it clear to Sid;
that both the aerosol and the magne sium powder were entirely the products
of BE.O'£'r!1;MZ's work, upon which he reacted in the following fashion:
He threw up his hands and made s vulgar remark ani said that if
it was all BRi"l}.IA'."s work, he wanted nothing to do with it. _
Lone of this material, accordingly, that is, either the aerosol
dispenser or the magnesium powder, was ever turned over to Sad; or any .
0thar_Soviat agent. r -
-43-92--i
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The occasion of SI.L's discussion Ie'.=th B51IJI?Z:;i.';'e work was in
Qctoher of l9£,3. There was one occasion in the early fall of 19-£3 when
I 1?er.t to A-en York and obtained z. room at the Connodore Hotel nee: both
the Jraybar Building and the Grand Central Station. BRGIZi!-.'-' 1:89 to
spend the day with me, working on the magnesium powder and comoleting
the whole business. lie did not show up until pretty late in the after-
noon anzl finally, even then, spent the whole time tellin; ma about the
trouble he had had in the Chasm-gy office. This was as s result of
n disagreement between ARTE 92'.'~-E111: an E:.iIL BARISH/both of who: worked
for Shemrgy. YFIEFL was one of the partners with GOLl.";..'".'F- and f.'EiTJTHI=LAEI
in Chemrgy. Absolutely nothing: was done on this day.
_' Begirrning sometime in the fall of 19132, and continuing through
..
1943, and into 1941., I received fro; EiC>'1':U.£#ci a considerable amount of
material, mostly blueprints, concerning a plant which was being: put up
by H JIRY G-3La_1'Y..£N£2 and Chexnurgy for the Rufsrt Chemical Gompmy of Se;n-sour,
Connecticut. Tnislrelated to a plant for the production of nicml
catalyst, both in pellet font. and '»*?eh1:1e impreggr-shed."
G{>L'-'.'Y!!NE, I believe, was also a partial owner of the Frufert
Company in conjunction with a man called JEROh§~.. These blueprints have
since been discovered in my hzzne and I have identified them as such to
agents L'II.LER and BR=ffI!IA!¬ of the Federal B.lI68L1 of Investigation. Llarzy
of the blueprints are those of the Graver Tank Company of Chicago, Illinois
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This last mentioned firm, 1 believe, .~:as doing the actual fcbricetilon
of the e:192:.ipmer.t for the Seymour plant. and the 3:.e:r.u5'
Co;.f~::j' wre doing the design work. II this connection, it shozllcl be
mentioned, that 1- did a good deal of so:-1: 0:". my, possibly three
occasions, for E1O'I'I~D.L!£I in respect to working out cheziczl detain,particularly as related to the recovery of the nickel. catalyst once it
had been used. It shodld be mentioned here that this nickel cat:._3.'stE 55 E. hymn» ¢s».~*"'" W RR? .5is -iced in connection nth various p:-zrtlculnriy as con-
corned with the production of fats such as Erisco and $27 fro; such
,_-materials as cottonseed oil. For this work, I was paid by Bl-.--l.L'...;,
certainly on at least one occasion, I believe, to the exwnt of l5O.
This was money which I needed badly for my expenses with gejard-to work
that Z was then doing with LL SLACK.
1-hile the Rufert Comp:-11;." had a laboratory in 5ey".:c'_1":', Connect-
icut, still BROTl{!.!AI¬ was always quarreling with the chief chetist there
and told me that it could never get him to run the experimen it he
wmted, and that the design work would be impossible to complete unless
I furnished AFB with this additional information. This work, I would
like add, was done in the ettmir-gs in the laboratories of the Perm-
sylvania Sugar Company. On one occasion, I worked throogh .2.-1 entire
nijht until the following moming. None of the infer.-nation on the
nickel catalyst was ever turned over to 511.2: or any oth-er_-$ot".92.et agent.
I an certain that I mentioned it to SAE and I an also certain that this
topic cane up during the meeting; mtween SAE, E and rgaelf, at
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ta.-c issue and had not condemned the process as being materiei. in which
the .~oriet, Union was not interest-oi. - To me, hwewr, stat."-6 vary
pic-ir~.l;' that they slread3' had p:'Oc."SSeS for producing fats used. in
cc?-Iiicg, arzi that his time
such matters. Here again,
aired most of EZI'£1!!.£A.' wasand mics were far too v:.1.1".r.ble
he rcitersted, SA! did, that wh
for him to obtain a job with a
trial concern whereby he could give us wall authenticatedto spcnzl on
at was de-
lsrge i*.:ius-
and accepted
infomation on subjects in which the Soviets were interested. Such
firms were mentioned as the Goodrich Rubber 3ompa.n;,', the Goodyear Com-
pany, and the United Jtates §"..1bbe!' Company.E;-;> lzlncoln Hotel, and that on this occasion, SAL had rsrcl;-' sidest4'-,;;:-2;
During my association with BEGH-R.i.=£1, he also threw several legit-
imate jabs my way for which I obtained money, which was very necessary to
qr continuing my activities. me such was a proposal on the conversion
of a plant owned by the B-'.}'Interst:.te Corporation of Paterson, Ilew Jersey.
Susan 5055717078Tnis firm made a malt syrup used as a pand the people wanted
to convert this plant to a distillery. I made such a sunny and was
paid the sum of $500.
To go ahead a little bit! ir" 1945., I was introduced by H1- .'J'I£.l..AII
to a mu called .53!-3!; LILIJJER, who was woridng for a man called HARRY
Ci?i."~3T31J7. of the Belle Beads 111% in Virginia. This man, was
interested in a process which I had developed independently for pro-
éucieg s high test yeast from citrus molasses. This yeast was to be
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Ihigh in factors oi vitamin B complex. lv-othing ever cam: oi this, though
oat 1 did submit samples of the yeast and a proposal to '..I_LL.";T.f., ...:.:i was
paid for the one meeting that l had ur; th in new Tor}: City.
In early L:-eptember of 1944, after a period of several months,
d-..I'i.'1_'_-' which l had not seen E13T£I1.IAI.', possibly since Juno of thot year,
I met H:'t."IH}.1$.I-I on 32nd street, mar 4th Avenue, on the southeast corner,
inside of a bar and restaurant. I had previocsly made several calls
to Choz:r.n~g'y and had simply been told by one of the girl: that B.=.31Hl.ll.EZ
was not there; either that or there was no one there in the evening
when my calls were made. Finally, I called NAOIII. BRO'IH'..Z;cI's wife, and
she told re that he iras probably in the 32nd Street office.
I would like to into:-pose here that so:-zetime early in 1944,
B.-ETJTIE-LA}. had taken me to this place on 32nd Street. Tna exact address
is 11L East 32nd Street, and the office was on one 01' the higher floors,
and-7 _about the llth or 12th. Tnsre waszo ofxice there at al , but there
was a crude or sketchy sort of laboratory. In this laboratory them
was working one chemist, a Negro by the name of GIBBS. GIBBS was, I
believe, a graduate of Fordhan University, -en York, and he was working
on the production of DDT, and also on the production of Chloral, one
of the two materials needed for the synthesis of DDT. ily vi or
was extmuely brief, and I have no memory beyond that of being intro-
6'12 ed to GIBBS-
I -ro-old like to stats here that at all times I used the name
-as-."'
3.... .;. II, ...IJ.;-. except or: the occe-icn when I did work: for 3-'3 I:~.t:-.~st; -*.-
Cc:*;>orr.ticn of Peterson, I-iew Jersey, and when I made the estixrate for
Dr. i"IL-_.r.'ER; than I used the muse HARRY GDLD.
1 would like to state at this time that I gave B."..1EI-.-'.i; to
understand. that my real ham was F':°.;-2.11 ESSLER, but I give his the
name of §L!.P..Y GQLIJ to be used as a letter drop or as a mans of getting
in corxzmuication with me. Very likeljr, had 1 not done so, I v='c":.ld have
lost complete contact with B?.3TH..AII and would have been very 31.1; to do
so, but once having giver: him this name, he could always send a__tc=le-
gran: to that address, and those I couJ.d not ignore. I believe that the
address used was that oi 6823 Kindred Street, the present address of my
father and brother. This would me-an that I gave him the name I>{..HI".'f GGLD
smd the address subsequent to Ju:1-e of 194-4. At his tin-2, o."_1;.' Q moth: r,
father and I were living at that address. My brother was oversees until
February of 1946.
O45-v-#" '_lo continueuuy meeting: with }3RI!T}{}LA'£ in -:-eptembar of 1914, this
was in the evening around 9:93 or 10:30 o'clock, I called him from the
bar and he asked me to wait there until he came down. After a half of
an hour. he did arrive and we had a sandwich and than want for a long
walk. This walk was down Fourth Avenue and to the i-a:1a:".aker Store in
lower xlanhattan and possibly below that, and than back again, and then_
a. other cor.-plate circuit down to the Janamalzer Store and back again.
Them mg; have even been three complete circuits. fie spoke for at least
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Et.»r*r:a nozlrs, 3.!.C1 mot of the taljcing was dOnr=e by 5F.1:'1I;...~;§ .;.d I 1isten;."l.
The sutject matter concerned the dirty deal which he had gotten from
H-".'?I G3L'."YT-.'¥92'E, ARTIE WEBER, and a Er. HPILIG or the Regal Chemical
Company of Brooklyn, flex York. Apparently, that had .1a;;1e:u-ed was this:
BR-3T'r{lL92' had designed the aerosol bomb for HFEILIG and had done this
for himself and for ';s.'E}BE2?i and not for GOLWLEIIE. ifnen 33L.-Y.iIi's§ found
out about it, ho asked AEE to turn i-*1 over into Chenm.:gy, his and 1.-B':;£'s
share, of whatever profits would result. B5132!-lilhl-. refused t: do so and
told GDLTIYIEIFL that ho had never received any money for the design of the
ftufert Plant, ani had said that this was a 2-gs:',;.;»o%.ss,f¬Y?;3r-L=n he had
asked 3OI,'wE'm'E about, compensation for it, GqL'*.§YE:.E. had said, that as
a partner in Rufort, he, GI!I;.'£YIIi;B, had determined that Chersdrgy would
do the wori-1 for free, because G3L;."£;.!E was also a oneth:Lrd, and possibly
a forty percent, stockholder in Shemurgy. When GOL?-'!'Z~IEfE again, either
on a subsequent occasion or at the same tim, asked BRGT1i3..A¬ to sign
over his and W313-.R's share of the aerosol process, B.=iOE1;A:.' again re-
fused and G1'JL"Jl'2IIIE than said, and this must have been on a subsequent
occasion, '5-ell, it doesn't really matter be-cause ARTE TiE.3E-"-It has al-
ready signed over his share to me, and furthermore, ARTE 23"-IBCZP. and I,
xnenting as majority stockholders in the C-hemurgy Design Corporation, f
92 Ddvotod to oust from the three-zgan Board oi Directors.
than produced for }¥1OI5i}.AIi an signed statement by ?.T-IS-IE1 to th. t
o
cfie ct . ' .
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90688123 of OOT!V8I"SHt-1011 with H- ILIG during which maze also
asked him to sign a papa! atatinq that for a certain minimum compen-
sation, P3-ILIG was free of any further obligations to B51"-"l":~'....+..., that
H-ILIS had procluoe-d the piper from BBB-h.P. stating that all of the design
work on the aerosol process was s-'Ei§J3i's own and was not B. :fJT}.'.;;.Z;'a; and
that the process, in effect, belonged to i'|'?.H1R and he in tum, was
assigning it to Ii-..ILIG. BROIHs.LhI= told me that at this time: there occurred
in the Chemurgy office, just subsequent to this, an event during which
I-'ZB 1 asked B?nST:iL'.RI-' to help him with some design calcllations; that
is, the matters relating to some work that 1£~1B':lR was doing for the
llellex Division L: the Kellogg Company of Jersey City, a large process
equipmnt firm. P>?.i!'IH.J£-I then said that he angriJ.y- turned on a.-*.d
asked him why he hadn't first brought up the matter of signing over his
rights to both Chenurgy and EFIILI3 without even mentioning it to ABE.
I believe that there comes in here, particularly in regard to
PFILIG, the matter oi the fact that one of the reasons that SROI'I-P-.ZA92'
told me why AHTIE signed over his rights was that HEILIG had agreed '
to"go to bat;'as it were, with hzzmva mm Draft Board in m~=>hh1yh,
to prevent him from being taken into the service, and that this was
also the reason for ARII:~3's seeking work with the ellox Division, since
this carried a very high emhptioh pz-1'@1~1h;,'. B2o'1'm;=;: said that he
accused of both selling him out to GQLZTEJCS and to E and
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o; at variety of other misdeeds, and thntlfinally got so a..*"1§3';,
Fr at-i-""2;-wte-.1 to physically mat up V6323, ant had 0.11; beer". :1i:s*;'.icd
ir_.r. coin; so by other people in the Chemurgy office. '32 upshot of
tho whole matter was that BR.3iE"£.J-IT was fired from both C§'l3I:.1I{f' a*:l
the Regal Company, and along with BRCJTEEII-_-I there were throw: out of
wo:-1; CSC¢J~. R33, IRIS MQLLALJ, EL?-.L B=2..I'S:i, and JUZEL !£OEiZ.1£l2 Z.
KOFICFIIEY was an architect employed ;.>81"t time b_r Ghszurgy, and
:1 friend of ABE.'s. VAG3 was a mechanical engineer, and an extremely
able 2L-caftsnzan. PM-IISH u-es a chemical engineer arm 3.JL'_.' ms esscntiall
c mst;1e;:.tic'l:..". and a physicist, but was so:-}:in;; mostly a... c ch'....;Lca.l
engineer. _AB. said that several days after the event occasrrod, and
this was 0;: the 15th of August 1944, that these four people and B3311}!-
LH2 met in the laboratory which had been used on 32nd Street, cm had
finally agreed that the best thing that they could do under the cir-
cumstances wcs to form a firm oi their ow.-1. This was to be 2. fin:
which specialized in oaveloping chemical processes and design-
ing the equipment for these processes. No laboratory facilities were
availaole since the space at 32nd Street was converted intoa desigr;
office. Ihis was 0:11; one 512.311 room and a partition was put in with
u desk for use of the members. Zhe rest of the space,92'rhich had been
1:-.bor:.tory tables, was used for 6.:-awirzg. AB? told me that while some
of the others had contributed nominal sums such as $233 toward the for-
mation of the company, still they were practically penniless, and that
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'..'L;- principal fonds had come frcx; personal cor.-tracts which £3.-. had
ty R M.
for doinr work for the Graver Tank Company 8!'id.AfOI" the E1 i¬1_"Qj1'3I 92» '
0 FOS- r:.r:= oo:.oa'-:3". ihe work -as the Bridgeport Brass, I be'J.i*=v-'=, had to do
url-.th the aerosol dispenser. I do not mow the nature of the work for
the Graver Company. ABEL stateo that he res to receive somoteiing like
:Y1.5,'J3S from the raver led: Company.
received some of this money, I do not
that I cane away with was that a good
come, and this vroulribe used e-tirely
up the organization to be know: as A.
;.t either this, or at a later
that the reason for-having chosen this name for the firm was that they{J33 from Bridgeport Brass, possibly $23,033, arc. soriathk-43 liiz
7101:, wh.eth.er he had &lI6F':.'§'_-I
know, but the general impression
deal of the money still. -.=-':.:: to
for the furtherance of setting
M
BRO'1}'Q.U'-J1 PLEOCIAE
date, BROlHL.Ah explained to me
R5had 811 agreed that naonnoa: was the only one of the group vio is well
known in the chemical process field, especially throu;;h hie 1.1.11-lioations
for the 3-c Grew-Hill Company, and that as such, this name was more likely
to at-tract attantivzl and business than a more descriptive one but one
which did not contain the name K-DTI-§.iA!-.1.
I would like to explain that the ingredients of the material
dismneed through the aerosol borrb were Even 12, Sesaxae Gil, t°5"r=-thrum,
and DDT. The from was the crrrier and was e liquid in the aerosol bomb
mil protiuced. a fine mist when e:-rpvlled through the nozzle. n 'osam
Oi}. was a carrier for the P}"1- rhIU.E1 extract; which laetg, gt-rovided the
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to.» ; ;:*~:1'1on of lrnoci-tin-j claw": the irzsecw. Tho DEFT, wt.-11:: it 6.5.21 not
' 1 . ' _ Lg}?! U4nove mo high FJ203rI"'dD'I'!1 of :;;:~ot.~.ru:a, still had a far grL'.L92u¬'I|l¬+J~§'..c1'
ans; was effective on surfaces for as long as two years after tn-'.-;' nod
boot. sprayed. "
It was as a result of B?.."IT~£.'A?I's work on the aerosol t':;'.t he
became interested in DDT, and it was on D31 that ton» licgro c:zar:i.=st,
was working in kpril of 191.4.
The first ti:z;=~ that l ever not IIAOLI BEii!'I'E2;!.?I rras or an
occasion when 1 waited for AB-s at La Guaroia Field when h==~ was duo to
rstum from a trip to Lnshigton in conrection with the Buns.-S. ihis
was somtiua in February of 194.2. The only event that occ':.rr-mi was
thnt we took a cab to BI~lUlH}:A'I's apsrtuent, and I continu-=.d fro:-. there
to the Ponnsylvsnia Station. Us did have one brief convfarsstion in
the man's lounge during which BIi'J'.?Z~D.'.¢'~.E; gave me some fragr1:*nta:'y infor-
mtion on 8-Ana-S. It was also on this occasion that on-=. of the tines
when I was supposed to have rnceived a complete. of data had been
plasma for.
I would like to add he-re that on several occasions oftar leav-
ini very late at night, leaving the Chsmurgr offices thr~.t is, I drovo
BF;O1H1..A.I over to Long Island City rihefe ho lived mar Ilkilllnn .1.w-nus,
and then took the some cab back to Penn Station. t this 154$, it
would have been impossible for BE to get a cab driver to tsko him
ovcr to Long Island City without the promise of a return farc-
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P.-ejarziing the subject of re:mneratior., BPJJ-'E'§~£1'.i.I raver rec-"ves!
En! mo:-re;-' as payment for work that he did for the boviet U:.ior., but
these events did occur. U./1 at least two occasions in regcral to i:..or-
. m:tio* that B.~'l3CHZ_f..' said tH:.t he was obtaining for zze 1*'3; ff... ;"._7_".,': the
Bzma-C, I paid him sums of $50, possibly one payment was i5G and tkm
other -1'25. Ihis was in connection with blueprinting erzezxss-as. BR3'l§i-
LAY. told me that he had to order ad.:1itior.al blueprints and could not
do so at Hendrick w_ .ho'.1t ax-o 15'-iI1;'_§ suspicion, so he 1".':t_".c1 or-tier than
*~ and would pay for them himself, and this was repaid to him.
In the summer of 1942, I gmrchased for BROfE§'.!£'i 1 ioigtlander
camera '.-:hich was of the out film type or film pack type. 'I"ni.= was a
second hzmd camera and I believe that I had purchased it at Kline and
Tvoodzczsm in Philadelphia. There is some possibility that I may have
obtained it from AL SLACK. B¥*.3II~1'.'J.i. told me that he wanted t'.1is camera
in order to be able to take pictures oi his child or chilriren.
camera cost me about $1.0.
On aaveral subsequent occasions, I aupolied B3.'!ZEE.i1;. '-'ri1:h £i.lm
pack which was very rare as ii was all film during this time. I may
have obtained this film from AI. SLACK about Christmas of l942.:L£61c=.1r-
chased a scarab bracelet costing about $8 or 1'9, and an umbrella cost-
ing about .15 or 136 for a girl in the Chamurgy offices. -.1is girl was
:1 stenographer who had done a good deal of typing for B3132?-QLFQ-I in con-
nhction with work that he was turning over to ms. Particularly, do I
believe, that she had typed 2 good deal of material on mixing. I may
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mi» sole girl, a....l -'- do not l:.o.". who she is, but B?.3'_"Z£l»'.IT 1.013 1:." that
he needed a gift for her and so L mde these purchases. E believe 1
IE9TI£'i£¬ turned over one oi than to the girl. :5
In December 1945, I purchased a six inch slide role. Tnis was
a Ileuffel and Esser slide rule in a leather carrying case, and is of l
the vest pocket type. This cost about £15 or $6. Tnere were two reasons
92
for these gifts, and the gifts actually included only the cane-rs and i
the slide rule. One was that I hadn't been able to see him for e::92-ended
periods and felt somewhat guilty; the second reason was that I. had been i
unable to make any progress whatever; and this particularly relates to
the slide rule! in obtaining legitimate backing from the Soviet Union
for A533 in his enterprise.
I would like to elaborate further on thls matter oi" legitimate- |I
<
baclcing. Starting in early 1942, md continuing through B.=13I}.'J£;'s 7
associations with Chemurgy, an-:1 into the period when he formd .2.
gr?BREJTT-1l, £I.'.S_iOCIA'IES, ERQTE-ELEJI, on many occasions, I would say at least
six, openly and directly asked we ii I could dztain legitimate backing ;
from the Soviet Union so that he could openly set up an enterprise and
do work on chemical processes for the Soviets. when I first mentioned
this to SALZ, he laughed hilariously and said that he had never heard
of such d----iool nonsense in his life.
First, I would like to explain that by legitimate backing,
B.'{0'lE{11A§I meant sums ra- ging frcxn $25,000 to $50,000. Also, he envisioned
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sr.>ts:..":; up at complete organization, inclooir.g a chemical oevelogtoont
lobcrctrory, r pilot plant setup for carrying out processes or .2
.-;-::_:..11 scale, and finally, design offices. SAIL, as I saii, lE.;;.j_'l;*.;l
hi_1a:io_:sl3' and said that such was completely out of the o_ue.~=ti.o~1,
and that E§iIT1~1.1.£A22must be mad. He again reiterated his st.':ta::r:nt to
the affect that the inst that ERJIEHQLZ could do, wcmld be ho
or.t.';i- a job with a large initlstrisl fizz: in the United tttet; that
it was information from such ..i:'m5 that the Soviets wanted; that he
was not interested in L12 slightest in vinat }.B".'JTHLL¢l; might dreaz. up;
and that the Soviets were intomstsd only in processes v:h:LcY:1 c£...hor
had been or were going to be actually recognized and operated success-
fully in the United States. I could not take back such s blunt answer
as this to B¬1.3TrI1.'J£¬/, so I tried to soften it some way by a m-ioty of
excuses including the general one that it was not feasible now, and
another one that such funds were not available right not and a variety
oi other dodges, bet as I have said, BT1O'II£}.:A>I repeated his request on
at least six occasions. These beoam more frequent, especially through
the year 191.5, so much so that on this one occasion in :'EOP.If.b*I of 19-£5,
when I did see B."iOTHIiAN andgsvs him the slide rule, ti-mt h= asked are in
desperation for backing. This was after a lapse of quit» s fez: mor.ths,
.TH~1 __ vs:oossiblr four ar1-:1 was a air L'.t>O*1"'¢-he occasion that Ri!'Z.Z'.' vs: so .. "
. 5 , t Y. .. j u 4 ' '
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-' -;?i»'.E"er... mu. my next Soviet contact nos JSELI, whom l have since ido.-."c.i1'ie:i
as l£Ti.'.9LI A. YMZDVLEV. On one occasion in 191.4, and this was very
late it 191.4, possibly I1=:oe:r.be1", and after BROTI-IL£A?; had ljfain asked
me about obtaining funds for him: through the Soviets, I did mention
this matter to JOHA. I did not get very far, however, and -1 think,
as a matter of fact, that I dczt believe that 1 got 811$" further than
BI1DTIIl'i-Cl rs mm. JGHEI grew Ve1'§~' angry end said that under no cen-
ditions was 1 aver to meet with B.1O'iHLihN or ever to get in touch with
him again, that 1 had been instructed by SAM, and I will elaborate on
this last, and that BR-JIl.-'J.IZ was never to be mentioned again. I stat/ed
that l never got very farlbeoause I never got as far as this p1'0poB-
ition or as far as telling JQH-i that 1 had seen BROTHLUJJ recently»
Tiith regard to seeing antenna-5, I would now like to state that
1:: December of 1943, and possibly January or 1944, I was told by SA};
that there was an extremely ixmortant miosion coming up for and
that before he could tell an about the mission, he wanted to know Ircmld
I underta-.}:e it. I unhesitatingly agreed. SAL-I then told me that the
mission res far more important than anything that I ever done before,
and concerned matters of not only inmediate necessity but of world-
ehaizing importance. He did not elaborate upon it at -this meeting, but
did on a subsequent oocasion, but he did tell me on this first time that
he brought up the matter of the important mission, that I was to drop
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. -1- ~aany association win-1 B?l0THL»1A.¬ and was nevar to ever see
I do not believe that B.CET~1.'i.!' ever gsvw me my mttrial
to the material I obtained in 19134 0." the Ruiert Cnerzical
my aasoiation witn ¢'1BP..-um}; BE<..,I:i..:'u. 0.1 behalf
above statement consisting of 5? pages and
statements contained therein are true to the
belifo
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I, II_.'iE' 231.11 _, b.e:-eb;* maize the 1' oIL.:r."l:-.3 1.'::lm:'.t:.r;' ::.:.£e:;-." .1
Lo II 533.1 , JI.., anf. E_ICZL.I.I! E. 1ZI.ZI.'lLi.', who have !..l:'.Q: .--
selves to me er; ;3pOCi&l ;.ge:e-.5 of the Federal Z3~.:rez:u oi Invezrbifatiexz.
130 tL.1~e:..t.: er ;:'r:::_i.::e:; have been made me, en-_i 1 realize t.h:_';.. I do net ..z;'rr.
be make a:':';' et:u:::v1"1b, and any statement I dc 2:.-'.1:e 3:3 be used e;-,ai.n:t me
in a C-curt of Ix. I realize that I hevc e r.-_g;:1» to c:>'.meeL
The avenue I an go@ to describe occurred d.1.zri:=.;; the 17:70
year p::r':Lei G"J§JlO}C{:. 21,- ~a.'~_~<; fin; oi 2.. e?.er:_:-;: inzl hseeeiew:
of New fer-1:.
The a.£e.ir aet*.mJ;,* beg. one or tn:::> d_ye pI'iOI to !.le:.ar:Lr_1
Day 191:7. I hei been r:er1::L1g in the IIJ:.:31u.r:t L:.bo:-etery oi the rim
ad time TE4-'..C1lO i we paint where furteer war}; required my going in
to the mfin-are Cl$ emm Che time xree about 3:00 in ..}.e 1=_ tcz*-
noon. I left the la-Izeratery on the my be !.1anha*.c.en got off the cub-
Yre? at 1.0% Pl.e2.e, no t.u;.1. I c-oulrl stop in to the Design Oificee of
,1. ::2o:t':.:'.:: and Lssoeiates, TiI.iC-1. is loeetecl at 2;-25' we .f.vcnue, Len;
Island Cit. The bdlding . 1 the Z-1?-.OT.Z.'lI-.2-I Design Offices ere
located in e..1_'Le~ <1 the Chathszn-3ncz1j.?'.. When I had merged from the eu.>ea;v,
end just as I was c::'o:.~ein;; the street to the cntrzznce of the 1:>*:.ilcbZ.n;_,-,
this is on the side oi the street nearest the 0.2:.-:.:;r, one of the ZI1&112.L'_1Z
e:'p1.o;,'ees, an elee Lrical engmeer whose nzuae M SOL FHZIZZZL was leaving _
the 'b'4i..1.c?i'.';. In the rplciilc oi the street he e.cee::tcx3 ::.c. and said, but _
not wocezcitezlly, "Did §,1':1.l I.:n::r:: ilxet sore 3092'e:'n:E'.:1t men ere upstairs "
place oi the pllrese, '
1;: III-'2" Ii. meg, be p:>s:J.b
100-4500? - /1,,/2.
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"3-o*.'c-;*:=:1'::*.*t. men," thazt E!.1I.SfJL. used -the -m:~J_': "Internal Bcavcrrac non,"
I can not cm:-.c'L1y rah ' ; in any case, I wax; not very much c1ic"i.urb:>d,
and want direct-hr up to the oi_ices with tho purpose oi ccnsul"c.i.n;3 wiih
A3; to soc r.;;a Ll*:.-2* thcrc 1:15 c.n3"' ..l-"'....:~.;; i'urthr,-r 92:h.:t I hzd projected
53:2 Cto1.oo1:1t;>in<.11oc£1c:::Los.lz=:&i1=_-:*e-. '
e 1"oJ_m'92 fin;-; cozwcnzation @053: pL..c" 0
'.12;-.11 apgwroaclwzl mo in the o:."_ico when I mrivad. Chile some 0:1 the L:
corxvcrsatisn it: sat. fortla in quotes, it 1.: z:~.1s:t.::.:92.t3..=.-"J.,-* ~r:1".:.t 11".?!-Zl".'..IT
bold mo upon this occasion.L
Yihon I arrived in the office, B?:OTI1'111-.2; was in a state oi
g;:'o:.t e::ci1.c:1c:1t, he :I:z:zed:.z:' telgr wont to moot mo,
.»¢?~' -"- - . _ .. , .¢;r<= co:-::m*1's; 1.-. ;?$;%é~.U$¢ 2.2- _
I2'.?"";,e3, orTr-i--Lrgw£1
mo d1:si¬I~:;;"" T.'no o:1o need-el lo Eio o :'W>cmg* um-:*a*6f
mm... ..n =n..;;~» ggmr
-d.-Aa~*-x; * §_- ;i:1"__r-* oz" H dz
Ehc first Ling BROTEILZAII said vre.s_, "E110 I-BI were here~thc.y
1:1-war eve:-5-Lhjqg-'-thq' know all about us--thczgr know you were a. co.1rie::92-
they have a ph0b03'C.1?1h of you and me together in a. msbwmz! 34:01:,
we donw have much tine. 1001:, I1."-.I.-'25, you've got to get this straight.
You havo got to toll the sane story I to1.d'2a~: we mot. Look, do you
3m:rn' £3212 3:5" J0:'ST'I'" I told B.'102E£I.'!l! that '1" did not lznorr JOIEI, and asked"
Z£'1OIL'lLlI that he r.-12.0 1:1}:c. B?.0'l';{IL'-.13 than said, "I.oo1:, 11.-'3?! , you have
got to gc-'. 1, is rlc.':cI.".'_1I»tioz1"¬:1.:.'".-.fr_§1f.!" mo"2z=.:;-1:: chm described to no q.
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"ragg _
$5? '-
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F ~-avg}_Tl.._ ...Z-__Tl:'1.. 1 ._.:.. .;- 3.... - 2:. n.-:1-1 5.11:. b",
. .-92 .. -,--'- "-- r"--1..._..@:.¢. p.sO..»0__?.-._;1. ..92.a_-1..:... .=.~:..u. mi» 0. Jag...I 4.1.
'~~---r'~ ""7>r " tn '1--iv-a.-__--...92-> C-. van. -..4.... v I-@410-4,,
1.; -l...I._. .'.. uuawincd J L121
1.-a me as ea 92-Lam->3 : 1:-'5 ai" £'c11.o~." witl; rc~d.....-' ';11 i.c.'_r and c 1~<,~c.:.<I.;Ln; bar" *
line. B?."..""-" t-'1'? r".-P that J93.-'3":'. nmc rm
;_i1»:::- -:ic::c1-;"_~:. ' 3ZTT to 1"" 1' 1"ZE1*.1".' "r.'zIf'LC.-1' tr "tar:
8:16 I slid 'L. :*.t I 3216., 2.11-.1? than s'_:Ld,E " "T".:.iT!:',
"Leak, yam:.1..LY.-cc "3015 L71 .'*
-1-P-_uI "*"ot tluzt?"
have {mt to make
up same sort of r:.{..-srjr right zzwa_v as to hmr m-'.":. ti-.i.s r1c.1--rc:1£:;bc-:r-
you've gait t-2 e"; J-32."-_' imro-'.1.>.cc:l yau to mc. 1093:,
J03; was an mzreprexzeur, and amt you and 1 wax-L.-sci
T31 got the pI1o'-'.0;;~:_.'>L: of n';.'sc>lf' anrl him l*£:0'IEI*£i1'.lf
kncm, t.he;,"v1=. got. tJ;c:.1-»:'. lo
- .'~b:1'b the ni.rl."lc of1
also Bdii to me, Z1090 fellow: out HICPQ are ;'_£EL'l{§
- ». be on tins-.>£r W1-' out thorn now. I prwied '-..hr:nI Q1871; that
togcth-:r for him,
cm c-vr;.lu:o:7_n_f pL:a1i.c:.I1. processes." I that asizad B5.21§£;'I haw the
than Said, I Clan"!-
e:.1--p11ota5"raj>1n: of. ova;-yam."
£1.10 canvcrsation, EQKHLFJT
to me, "I=c~"::r-"ac has r.:.."2.c;I-ii, nut be ti-1&1 bitciz §I_.".'£l.I." 13E..OZLI;f.iI
to soc you-dicncy
I would not 't.¢_..L:- Y
1-rlt". you, so d--nit. let on t:.n%. ma-'~.'e talked abcrat this, 1'cu*vo got to
covar no up rad tall t.hc::'. the same story that I told you."
' ."?.*ICf'.?.-'3-Z wan begm urging that I lczve ::.*-.odi.:te];.' far the
,
AI-19
about this mz-.1 .rr_,""t1c £2.11 import of
le ofilco ms '61-L Elisa ILDSTIQJITZ had lnft
E116. Gffilt 01' -'fj.:-1|: II I'IT1El'.'£I, Liza KTLLS an aitcmijr
92 _{ on_= _-.- I. J -
Q. _92 -_ -_ 1 A _ I_ _ . . . . I _One of the last t.2.in,_-gs that 11.-*L =IEZi!lT te-
in
cazgslcryZLt.aoraooz3', d.'.P.t;:>ugZ; I wished to stay and have i1.u't».1e2* convex-satian
it had j'u.'£ ham wdizcd 1:5 1::-:2.
ld me b.-roar: I ].s1."t
F£.0I?ZL'lI's car for
b" the Amber" J L1 i
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;
9 9
'.I2"e£.i.u_ GOI'pQ!&i.-i030
I Left the office and retume:1 by eubzrw to the 1.zb0Id'DO1'J'u
On the ride bad: to .3:i:'.:...":; I thought oi r. 21.211 92:;1:::!: I had imam at tiic
Per.r::.';,'1vz:;~.i.c*. Sugar Ca::!::,u". T1110 r:.::1':: name -r.-.1: G.'£:£1'. IIULDLZQS, az-xi be
boa: about a year or no older than I, and had been the son oi 6.11. EIO33I.3;..'.,
one 0.3 the mm $11.0 tum a it int-erect, '
w.c'3.c.J.. em; oc;>oc::La3.l;'
:r.:oc'=.1ti'»'e, in the Pc':n..";lvr_".ia Sugar 1.1.2:. :r:»a3:.:::s, #210 at one
time was in coagulate control of the Pams,ylv-"zrda mgar Coznpaxzg; bad been
a brother of 6.1. IIIBDLZSS. I ha Inovm C..E .TI II; 231.33?» ver_','_well, and
I chose him as 1.11: pa:-son 1;-113:: I r:ou3.c2 use to cczplalr. to the I- .';.*. as to
the £ictiti.o.As mezmer in wrlxich I ha-E met JEIEI GOLIISH. I 1.11:6 ho
state that I had never beard this name before until E.0'£':£.LAI{ told me the
name a fa mnents pz~evious to this tine.
I particularly chose CIGETIZE HO3IJ1.EL'-5 because of the fact
that he had died about for years previous-
I ret*.~.rned to the 1.aborato:y and tried to busy wolf abozzt
2;: duties there, In about an he-.:r, and this wold make it about 14:30,
ta-ro non enter-cxl tho J.z.barator;'. They looked around anéuevera t21o'.1{;h both
mm 1o:>1:J.n.;; d.;_rect1;r at me in the smell space where we worked, they asked,
Is there a Ifr. !l.E" ..l' G315! here?" I replied th;t I was I3.5I"..E' GSID. Eh:-3:
oaid tint thug haul just
olzcti with 1.3.; Q13I.l2;.1I, a.-1:1 desired to
converse with me .i'u.r't'm:r about some matters that he'd mentioned. mesa
mm identified themselves to no as Agate &LIJ..1I3II and O'2.".11I.II oi the »
Federal Bureau d Investigation. e went outside and sat in 0'Bf.I£?tI'B
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zcar .101" a Lr'...c..' " r.';..._|.c"' until the pc.."e:::u<:l oi Linc. lziznratory hr.-rl gone
h"*rtc=. -She:-i1_-' 0:"i'ot"r tie a_jm..:* had :.".:'r..vo'l, III§_T_'l£ 132211? .".-.'. I c:*.*.,c::*::¬
1.1;: 1r.:»:>rc.i/.22? 2.11:1 talc. me tint LIBS had gone hon: viii- 1: cpI!.itt:'.:1; hoax.-
ackc. lI.I:L':I c.-3.2.2 t.k.-c-_:-c, but» was on the paint of lsz:vin;_-_J1:Z1en the
agents arrived.
1.110;; everyone had gone hcaao the ag-ants zmzi I
the 1z.bor:.»a':';' .241 had z. v<::';,' 10:1; canvcr.-:::;i:n, l'.::::..i1;; frctz c.bc=::b
tmtil about 9:01: O'clock that ni,;ho¢ In the co'.u:'sc ai the conversation
I told t.1*.':.: the io'1lc>=?;.n; atom. mat in Octcbzc or liovc:-Jacr of 191.1,
I has. aitctliozi EL I. "la'l:.Z.pl1i.£. Scciicn I.§c:i..Lr.; oi the ;..':.£:*ica.n ChE:ic:..1
Society. This meeting m held in the hzstitute, as they
oust-o.'.1.':-rily ware» I *s:".:i.d tha"c- I had prev-§.ous1;' agreed to meet CAP.'£E
IEDILDLZLIS at r:.:c'ti.m~ I acid tlmat 111:2: I ha-xi czztered the mectirzg
hall C!..'."."f. had gcw;- .Zo:'=Iar~:1 to 5;:-cct 1::-' -_ M. said that he had a
friend hcr:-c $7110 was a:::ious to meat ms. Cff;'i.'I. had igtroducocl mi: to -_.:-_is
friend, 6:15 1.'::.<.. :3:-.t.:~cduc@ 121:3 as JLDOB GOLLIS O2" '
Icannotro-
ccJ.l ncnr 1-rh Z1211 had told me chang our ea:r1ie::~ tall: in the
offidc tint ':.l92.c s.:'e:1t.-=: 11...."- rc.fc:":'ed to the mzm as J:.C3'.3,o': whether the
a-;',cnt.~.:4had rc:.{c"rod to him as JACOB. I do 1'-wall, and very clistirlctly,
the fact thrt. I =::~.:-1 shzwrn a nxznbcr of p.":ot-o_jr.;;vn:, possibly five or :i.':,
one of :1l-icI: x.-as c.I".'.t of thc e.-:::_l1 xaix-..enc:1 112:; v r. receding ha:."2.r'.Line$-
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To co:'r'.Lr_:_: with the story Lh;_§: I v:-.:.:: t01L1; the FBI, I
..- . "L; 4... ..I.;;. :_Ib<.:." ml.-.. C;.:.;d.c;.I:. I-.:>c:;Le:.;' nu.-..ir;__ 11.5 over, and um. L1..=.:-1
p:":lncip:..l1;<; 121.5 c.:.mi:'T.,:.~£. of :. by 30:30 pra;£1zc.1t visiting chczrziet,
"" -'r- ~r- = 1 '2 ru I---. .. _ : ,_,._,., *. ,'I -92t.~._.. 1.... the 210::-._._ p--o-c...:.. cz, 1.11 b.1::_._n._;__ i.,c;"_~c 1, , -5;;
u::'.1::I.3;' 1.-r_:; cl; : in C:z:':.i"Ltcc, cm-. "-é-;l_-s m't:.'I:;; was r.:::'*.....92.1§"
11¢
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3:...-c~.:1 up by {Lac oi z. cha~:i.at,*.1:.W___""~~ one of prcxrdnmc-c in
'" iiclzl!, i.I"..:;i., wc GQLLIZ um-.1 I 1:4; lcfi. C.I.I.;II. ....'..L3 am}
#1 I ,
bad gone into c~.¢:~.w.-.1 1"1~;L1:.:1cl1'£1ia to a r92;:-..:.::~:::t. 5:. the nc:.;;Z.bc.".~hos£
oi Ero;.c'. anal Locust £1-r-sets. I ha; told the: ii-.;:L tE.;_: 1'-e:."92.zu..'*-a:*.. . was
Us. I clso halal than that I 'l'rc:.zt there with GQLLIS upon h_-1.; in-
vitatian. I co.-*:-i.uu:::E vitiu ngr "male up :_-{.91-;'," I {1;_j;_1,<'_1';_'p";~p- 1,1-,9 ¢;,~_-_;-ac
oi E. txro or thrre 111.2 camcrsation, t.".z.t C-Cu.-..I.." " hm acgslmn- ed to me that
he vrcs a Iiacimzmical llrzfinser and a prcmotcr, and that he Imcr: a. 1-cry c::cc1-
lcnt Cl'1¬!1ic:l L.
:»:r in New Tori: City. I haci tllat "blzis Chem$.c..:J.
lhgincw 1.1:: clc:if:zi._:; processes far 661$, an-.1 that GOLLI5 needed a
Chcr'..:1.st to c':~.c>cl: 0;: '51.: rcliabilii:-3' of the c';1:z:lc.:l :Ln;"o:-.:92.:.tio:~. t':'-.at v.*r...'2
bcin; givca. I ::...i-'3. i.I:.:*t, C~3LI.I.-3 had become vc.r_3' er-zpazzsiwa and had cxplained
Lu me that r.*;~;3.=l bc paid well for this 'r:<::~i: 1:£1at I was to do, and that
he had pa_'I.nta.. a. var; pals:-,:..*-0 01 the .iuI:*.::"e, I @159 said -L151,1-
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J ,a 4.1.1.1,9:-1*": fmec um: me to got. in bench with 11>-.o'r_-"::.1: in the no-:.r £ur;u.re, and
to me.-o l._... " ;.n:L 'u:;.'_; 1,."orl:L:.; ~.rl.Ll. Ll;2.:: Che._.e "* Ll T:z.;'in:e:'. _ .=o toli
!.;;e.nae 525:1-;;1I mi O'II.;....'T ; t.':1z.Je GOE..W:'; had never given me his azlir-5; ir:
Ker Yo:-1:; z-:.:. :. .:_~'-£3202, tr-.:.t chr:.1-.5 his e:>nvc;"s:tia!1 he not etraels me
, ras being a 11.2.: m:..o bed the teehn:.er_1 neees.'::_':'y for 1'.r:e?.-:5 u. a
!.!ee.»%1..e:.1 zgineer. I bold the Agents that dur;n;; the co'.n*-ee oi the
eonv::e::c.ior. I been ezaewim". tzlrezz in, bx; t-4.21. on calmer rdlectien
e little Later, the ~.":'..w1.e 6102-5 began to have aomemmt of. a false
air. The nc*::t- cvtnt-e that tool: ple,Ge_, <ceorcL.n,_, et.o:5'!_,wer*e ch
I had er_.J..e:'; 'I:O'2IEi-.1; in lien Earl: City, and after one or two un::.1e.':e:.':.£.;3.
:;ttc::.-pee, had gone to nee 11;: there. I meted :.'n::t Dmzn the very be;;im.in,_,
_. by II.f!lIE.'.-'e.II'c ta-ernendous kzxowlecige and abi1._it;r, and that
Dre: the vex" £.*_1-ct we had baecne close friends. T. stated that. I men . a
d'.u':E:'.;; the period from iIovc::i_>e:' or Deember 121,3. ser:et:L:92.e in late
warm or early s~.::r*.er of 19.22, szme sir: or seven trips to see .EC.3I'.Zlf,
.111 to lie:-' Yer}? em. on seve':"r.l of these trips 1 ma worker} at rr.o::::'_*:-3Ii
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5.-<;i.:_ *..i.:.t he was just passing t.?1z'o':gh and could not soc
:2 ..L"L c-.-::.L:.;. Z ::.:_to'l th:t tzc.-c r:c:'c p-o::.".'.L'J;; some three :.;b::::;'_.:;.'.
c...._.' "-'". can; r_s:::.z 2. m_..."~"i.l; ::a::_"t. ens} ah; t on c._.c" L. occasion .i3I,T.....*" hm 1 . a
b;.c:1 very ova:-iv»: 1?_.c:1 I asked vrhcm I could soc 13:15, I than st.-;t.e:j 1,1-..:t,
5
FeI::ru<':z1'or cc.r]y5:&!.Zr.1-cho£l9h2, Ihadnevccr
. -1»-#@ .hccrr. from or soar. G31 IS. I £ur't.hcr siaioe 1n 22; stataacnt to the
Lgczzts c.11:.t IT.-ZI'II'.l'II 2.1.1 I not discusscxl G32. 13 vc-.:';,-' nmch, but. that
0.4:" one or two occasions who-n we had, we had c;-no to the agreczmertt that
he 1-::.:. just a i'ly-'o_,*-:".i:,.:*t prcnotor nitlz no s»".1'r:.:.~'..n' -* 1.1.~1"~ mm to heel." -
up e:1tc:-_:1:.";I.s:::, all t.;1..- "t .~l".3'1."ZLI.'.II and I hm both 2.3:-cod that we
do.1btc;<l that we over hear Eran him. again. km the occasion of making
this stat-crnczt to !.;-ant-s SITAIEIDII and G'BZ.l'Ef, Z told then, upon tho.:.r
q.1estio:xing, that I ' know but what these two or three blueprints
that II1O'11l1.EI gave no wright still be in cw homo in Philad clphia.
The c:'::.irc prococ-.in; story w2.ic1; I -bold 1.;;m*.s 512222022 and
0'II.IHI of the FBI is can-plctely false, and is a pIodu.dc- only oi my
;imagi.nz-xion. Tue o;11;; it-C13 trail; in it is that concerning
the blueprinte 1"-."l*.ic."1 I slid actually pie}: up from B.".0F.'*iU-.11 early in our
rclationahip, but these blueprints were not picked up at the behest of
C~3LI.'LS, who: I never -1212.1, but on i..'1:tr.1cti::»: iro:. another person.
Zine '.L11L0I'v'.2.c'w 121$.-4 Lgcn"-..S 5115511311 5.111 Q'I1.I*.lI was concluded
about 9:03 Oc1ODl: t.1:.b evening. About 9:33, 1'.IO.'3IIOZ;I'.ZZ and IIlOI'E:'1.T!Jf came
out to the ].ebo:-aoory in II.0E.'.-.I."s car. It mag? be possible that ti.ey
ma celled before lcavirg :-e-{L soc 1-nether the agents had {;:nc.
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my cast, when the? an-ive:1,t.he three of u:.= wmt to eat in a mcteuz-ant
£..I...:n;; .muc:1; .~'.0.;.lc*»'.;'n'.l in the Page Par}; ac-ct:I.:»n 0:1 Quecls. rc.c I»t.-.1*;.;."L1
is c:.3_1.oc1 ":.;::::;"s of Ch5:mtc:r.'n." he had dimer in the rcstznxx-.-mt, but. ,
before that anti vlile we were still in the Jaboratozg, I3?.3"f.I1.ZT h:.<I. wmtod
to 1210?: haw I had cs::r"3.ed ofi my convex-seticm with the agents. Ju.-at as I
"ms $01.23 to r0"_"~J.5', IE33TIi.'II'ZZ intermgntezl and asrred LE that I had been
c::;.r<::2.::'..;;' z1:>:1c1;.:3.':::, aim time egcnts en'bcr0c.. I told I101 23.11 that I bc"_i.cr»'~:x3.
that the vrfilelc ::...;Zr_._r had gone vex; ml
!.$'n opening rcn»:=.z~k to me a.¬t.er getting into the :~e.s'bau.z-ant
was, "IULIJI, 3.-"nu don't blwae me for hav.Lng 11:-ou._s;.'".*t. your name into '.j%c1o
you? I tho".1j1t z:;1.nce they wouJ.cl everx-'.uz=.'Ll;' uncover you because of our lazy;
close assaciatw, that. it would be better for no to br'.Lng you in xxgzeli
and at the very be;inn1n.;'." The 10:1; close association to t¢1*..i.ch BI?.0TfL.T!J¬
had referred .=.:pecii'ie:.l]5r meant the manner in r.-izich I had been 1-.0z'1:i.'1g for
ABE at A. zr.:~'n:;:1: i.sscr-iatcs since 1.15;; 0: IL9l»6. There was mt very
Inch 00nvc.."sz.t-ion during: our meal in the Chinese rc:.=ta:.u'::1t., and we retannd
to the lr.borai;oI'5' gbout 10:30. I still had a crnnzziciczc-able annuzat of 92';or:'k
to do that evc-ning. Rfhcn UC>SiIO'.'.'I'£Z went out on an errand, possibly to
Obtain some coffee, I related to I3ROTEE.'.-ll in dci-til the story that I had
bold. !.3c::1i,s -::;';::::: and o=:;1::1:. I recall um. K".o1*.=:.;-1: said, "ioolz,
:'.:.:::;, 1 got 1-.0 12:01: .-.11 about you. 1:11.11; can *.11¢.~;- gm: out that I dazvt
imdw?" I then told II1Q'I!L-.II that in reality I had never bccm nr.:¢':i0¬1,'
and Im"¢.hcr, that cry bmtlaor was still alive mi had not been iillod. in
the Pzzcific, me um I um vrith my family in Ii1ilade]._':h1.a. I bad - '
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pz-:.'...:=.2:.3;' L-Old E;-3Z'IZ.'!.II that I 1.115 mzzriozl on; that :1; brother kM..»"'" bee":
l'_i.I'J. t 5. tT:c I roc:._...."" ti-.-:1, . -;'lI ':.:"_-o r:.._";' r..."-":'.'.':..."'*_': ;.
for r';' h.:'rL.::; tuli 1.51:. ills 01:00.15, bot he :.;_i.;I 1.1.. L Z4: uicl not
those point: ';;.1._,_"" Lv. scriozlzi. She: greater portion oi the cor:
at the abow; ti c consisted oi my tol]_:.n' ~ 5.';".EIl'.II the s¢...n.."' => story I had"
bold the a;_-¢.1.: abogt 12:; :Cictiti.o'.:.s meeting with JACOB G01; IS. Le did
not have my time to go over E';.3'ZE';L'_JI'o story to the c.;cr:.,:: shoot the _
mzznricr in :'JdI}'I'I[Z»'.If met mo. At this time .¢-.331. and I realized that
thcre 92::_:: c. 6.1.3::-::pz:..'1:;' in the stories we h:.:l I-r.-1z.'£..e~'.1 to the !'?.I Igcznts.
1 111:1 told um LE4.-ta I 11-_<: or.7.;;;.::.:..'L2;: met *:::::'.:::.;: 13b1, on :.-":3
told the I~.3c'::".t: that he hex. not no in 191:0. Eo to belittle the
i1;"-ortmmco ofltiais discrc-;1anc:y, at tmt time LII! told mo that I
coold a1:..-:3": uso the czzncuse that 1:, Innry 92'.:.:; .-.s:u.ILt3r. K.0I'1L_1-'13 mzprcs-Hod
concern to no I night have had other dc__1.n,- 5 "rs in my oscocintion
the Soviets with xr iclz ho mt: not familiar.
I 92:'o.;lcl lice to 0:::plm'..n here that 11;: mom corztccting
IP.O1E1'.L'-.22 from Sop:-<::.,~c:' l7l;l to so:1eL.ino in 191.1. , was for the purpose of
owning from 1131: infomacion in which the Soviet Union night
be interacted. Inc tr-ac part of my story to the F32 Agents, that .1.s,mr *
coming»; blueprints mm ,=m~.1;; =_.=::o:s::..v:,1.-__ 1:13; in connection
with 1:11, activities 0;; bol-.;.3.{ oi the Soviet U:92..?.o11,
A Contirnlilig, I3.'~".02ZE-2.3.15 occznod worried that he wo;l<i become
involved xri-L11 the F131 because of his L:-men association with mo, and for
that reason wanted to k:1~o=:: wm. other activity 11:1 engaged in other than .w,£,z.1
i~¢1¢=:s-:.~'=I=..,!. I told I33 at t2.:Ls time i.h:.t no one I;nc'<..' oi oi xx, otherW5»
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"92~.a:t,i'r:2.tiu.c, and G4.-_";§CI.'LO& as L3; um. tic. s.'no".=...92.u" " nut nzznulor; any other
ac'.i*.'.;.:.:'.m of mine in irsnt of anyone, p::.rt.:a:.-_1:.z'1;' '2.I.J;£_.' 1ZZ!.';L'J.TI';'Z--
Z".-*0. tlzr; rst time t.-."..'::. I 13.1%. T IT 1'1" '
the aim:
1 ~.;e:f. 1.; 's":J1'l2 -:0: E-'_;. 1:. lb; of 151;;-, he .122. L.-zrzt 2;; was ruzacm , as
I o:'.Lgir:;.-*_1;- i1...1~»:>.A.:..' "cal myself to 11% unw:,.-- the of F?...II;. ._
Zia s_....o""" hm: ti: t I 1:.:'z~:l the oi Ii.-£31 ¬-l ..D, mt he did not Lzncrw
';"rl1at;1cr ei1J;.c.r zrvr 0; -Qncse amen 1-:a.s ngf t.:'.:.-: name.
31. .i.:':;_._.."." 17.1."-.2. 'L'L£> c*.::.':.':.....'"'"1.;L::- LL 11:12 "_1_.w'- :-::..or;', I '.,s1...."
LIL L. . c-. I;'.'£,i.1c canccrnml azbout the c~.z:_*-31:.".z:t.i:-:1 for 12;;-' wing
, _..._1....-,. -._ - ._ _ , _... .... .. _ _ . ..,...:¢.':. nan. 0.. -.__... .._.-,.1...-_. 1; 1:; no...--é..n;;:. *.._u: .»_.~. .= s.. _,;_;=.:':1-ca. to ¢..»...
that L4. TH; 92::u c£.:*L»;L; to gci ix. 'b:>*..1.c:.~. 1."3.i,'u 11.121 '.[I.T..;-, a.1_l 1.21; Z
.-- - - _ -1- q -- pr--ff ~r- - - _£.':.IIIJ 2...I3_I. <:J;' .%C."'rI.' :> nze as 1:-.-..I.. 1...- ...L... Lt c...-.5 t..:.c I
1'52. that it 1:1: pnsriblc t.h".c. I could use the id-2:. of xx Em of Dr.
.- ..,-._.,- . W .GJS'.7.;J§ T. :u..i92..-._, 1:5. s.qocn"a.or atrenmqvlvmm &:.zga.r O:z":.pa:1.;y', as the reasan
I x.-as c1cr.1;».'~-.3 aziih 3'.OZ'T~I'J.3I urzdcr an z~:.,...-1::1ar.'1 mm." ". The £=.-:.r 'r.'o;._u1 be
based on tho 1: ct 1', as a ch:-___-~*.-:L of t;-.+:= Pc:~.n:_*1ve:.ia ~ ~"
@119?-T3:
waulcl have been criticised for chin; i11c1c~:pc=.~u1c:zt 1].-er}: .=n chezzical processes.
outside of 1-;' '..t!*:l: ' lvania Sujar. I£i?TE£.L'.ZI téxozg." .1222 an
explanation 92-:o;;3_: V - ' " and cztmlze incisecl, A1. tE.i:, *.::=_*nc E3'I?..'.LI3
suggested 1'l".a.t as an azcpmzation ic:- our m.':~:ociz.t-ion, thatI
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31:21:; co .vc:*:::.tLo:~. T. .'.. ' I'.f.;'.'.Z he n:21tio.':o£1 sovo.~*:.'3..
n.::1o:: to no, one oi ~r:;;:i.oh I recall was PJRRY ¬.» .-.TW1..."-"'.;.L'..» .."'....=., and asked no
£2 I~'Z'JI Iqjents, E>'Ilf.IT_'I1§
ii I hm; cvcr u:.c1 org" of those names, a'_cb. ' -3 *
ax; O'I._L.iI ho; :.1.."c"1tianc:l t1.ooc ncncs to BT.CJZIZ.'.'.II. I told I3 that I hm
now; us-:.t.l c..1, of '».£..-;,c. macs, I-'Z..2.cl. was '.,r.;92:.¢
Eithcr tE.:~t n._;Z.§ or possib " about
3:O3 o'clock L1 the zrnming, as EILUIiIl'._»'lI was dropping; no off at. the '
Pczmsylvanis StctLo.*1 on Tth !.vcn=.1c, in front of the main entrance he said
vcn-3' bit*bc2'l3', '"..hat sort oi c dmnnod fool is it who takes a person so
closely tied in "with all this -air and obt:.in.': for that person a job
in Pf*.i111c1c]__-111121?" The person to "morn I'I.OI'I.L.'.II was rcfcrring was TIIUZI.-'.S_
L. BLACK, a ."i0.-1 oi since February of B33, and EZOEEILZII was
3-,; _3.... 1 :1."0 .1
0
I-
ems nmscli um" aiucthcr the ma-ntian was confinad
c:::::92-r::~::~r;*92;;*,-::_
-n- ....'| - 4.3.. J. Y!-1'..- - 2.... ._ ban.-. were -..:_.u.:z__'
- ¢----- , 1' 7......» . .11.:'9-NJ .5;-.-,, »--... uu-~:L 92...... I13 0.3.-uu
6.96.3 ".BlLS;..¢.- L. 1...}-RG11.
:.'1:::» aslzcxl ms: at this tzi;-:1: if 'IFT1'IL*.£- EL!-SK bar; eves: uscaf.
the nznn cu? F.'JI".1 :';'.3_.1'..2E"..;_'.S'.-".Z.'."., or the other scvcrzzl name: he previmmb-'
naked ms ii 1 11126. u~:c:..,mrl 92':.ic'.1 bcm nerrbiunul be hi?» by .¬~.3Q'n..'.';,/
&1.'._l'.I3'.¬ and 'f.I.I;I.L. '.":~on L. '.3ZZ'I;f;I'c CC1II92'*CIf?f~t.-L-?1:1.'.,h¬> <;:.92: :1: the <l:.."_".i'..t:.
k:pro:<.:$.cr. tlxtt he wt;-.:: of the cpinior. that 1121311 the no-cnlilad master
mind of the grcrxp 1:10 ware ocf.:.:Ln'i::;; .,cc:.-.":.;Lc;3.. irion.-1;:.io:1 for the Govictzz,
audn as the i:1ior.:..;'...L:m All. had been urnishi-E; no £1-on 92r:1'Li.1 191.1
I recall. that, the argwmrmt over ':ZL!.CII be":-ween I-£3 an ::z'sclf.' almost -c*.1lr;i.na'bod
m a fist £151: 11.5.01: I- L8 prcvrntcz. by we §nt-e."V=.=::tio:1 of mans: msrttrttrz,
who was in the witlz us.
I went. to Fhilmialphia that real: end, an:-1 rotuzned to liar
York Sunday nigzht, a-:5 than drove nith the EI.E>'3I1;'lI3 to Pee-.l:s1:£.1l, He.-'.'
York, vmarc 1:c the niggizt in !J3I.."s su-an-cr haze near there.
1.hiI|.e at t;-..s home told me that he had been in
touch with C31 {IL 3121312, but states} that he h:.:Z given EIJLEL-.1I very
1it.t.le facts ca:-102., the assaciation of ETIDEIUIJI and mrseli. ILBE toldZ
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f'<:"-'"r*..'.1 Z"rj' reel: :16, tvrs FBI !.rjc*::f,:: had made r. se:.rch of rqr hams, but
1 ..;;1- 1.11 1...c n.:.".'.:. c oi cu 11:1 2. c;>.".;lc'L:. ::.:.r.:"..l.*r,', :.n'.'. h:..'. as:.~.:._.-.L
par" ........." "1-1;' c;::»...'-';..:2:.-:.°. ...>o~" 2;... the b1ucp:'ini.c 0; 1.2;. £;:*.'1»...-"92~i..';i::l C1315-:;' '-
-1J~a-J
~92- _,~ __.,.L.- .. ' I - ,. Q""'l!'9"92!' . r""' $"'v" - L 1 9 I" h '34m b».-92.. Y-v»5v-Z-ab u- . ____..¢92-u.» L.-ha--92 1-. Era» 0'.-n~---v-1-u -L U:/L »--v- I hm
arszzrcsl ....-:.:"c ;._"':..."'.r *.--.1 ihcr-c were arc-..n.~ '1 t.1c:;' h._.."" e.:cc;r*..c;.
5; ward. _ E-:c"'_.-'.:-:1 2:31;;-c;La'.1.'_-.3 :11-5.- .:i.c:.1 cf the fact that I ha-:l'g;c:::c -_,.h.. -
0- - -. __ ____v ~ F 1, ,_ _"_ ,- ._-.|.',, .r.92_ n,_ +1.0.1:; 0*-'..: L-A-.1 .:::...:... I-.._, , -..-.1; sac-ms... p...t._cu...:1; c..w:.:'nc_ 1.;-.... :...c. ¢...c..
t2.:.t E1 par;-:2: 1 in <J.:lw; an 1::_: to c10c"C.::>:' i1cri":J_*1r.ti_~z; cv'5.dc:1co v:hic::
I may have 111:1 in my harnc, and 1'-izich pa-.rtirr21nr1;* rclzaal to sq; activities
for the S092'i:': L Ur.;o:. o".;t:i»ie of uhose Etoncernc. v.i':.h II '.3Z1.'J_Z:.I§.
I 1<'a".l:I like to arl that the wool: 3. Dav, I
92'»'a.s 2.52.1.-*1 92-ir::i.t,a.l by !.;¬.."1i-5 SI§.~'.I.-.'lZC I anrl 0'1;- .II".II at the BILOTZI IIZI Labs:-at-oz-ice.
0:1 this occasion their a.:1».-ad i'u:-thcr qmstions rc1.:.tdn; to Q story conccmirlg
C,'.I.'Lif. H3331. 532- 3-2.13, an-l 0.15:.» 'I:.b.c:;; rcturnaxi to me my Coast Gu.L=.rd
Pass 'v:L.ic1. hai on it 1:? phoLo_;'a;>h, take:-. l9l.2- _
.'E:>o..t tbs-2: or {car v:::J.:s a.£t-:2: 1.31 h;.:1 baa: questicncs. by
T231 Lqjents ELZILBZI and O".TI_ ll, he received. 1-gt wztmrm, dI'..I'cC;i."13 r.i.:
to to:t.:'.£y b:.'."orc c. Czrarxi Jazz in licrr Yo:-I~: Cit. f.'.:.cn I i':Tr:*t. sat:
_,v...4.oL""11I.01Z~IIIf;I after he got sznzzorzs, and arhiché the offices of A.
73.-'.">.'f;IL;I am 3.2;:-c:Lr_'..:~s, he uacxl a v:.-1-gr accmlng; t nc -..sm"_rci me in in-
.'lo1':.;.15 mc oi 1412- fact ":;.1;.c. he hm receives. tn; £1121 .a.m"'. Hr. let e1'c17,":m0 in
the of.I':Lcc: s..-c<=r 1 he was beim made the",=_*o+:t".ior IQ activities, It I3, .
c.ir:1e ABE t.'r.ni.c:'. to 1:ns*.:' whether I had told hi: c-vcr;,'t1'.:'_~r.3. E-3' his I bask
it to mam ::'..c:.*;.crr I had told LT. all oi nu naxzlzjromzl or arm activities
_m_i
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92
92
':...i.c';; 1.;::.-4 j;1"r:.:'L.5.;;¢.';;;; agcnts Qlaxb uzacovu" 2:; a la:-or date. I told
?-P" J'.J' " .'4__,.. ..,..,. -~.-._..¢
.2.-o:'L1;' .*.l'i..<2~ .».T.. had rcaoivol L'.;Lc :::.::r:1o:1s , bu.~ 'oc.£'orr. Le
t-.:r;.;I..i'io.;1 bc.Zo;~c tic mi. Jxzry, ho u-out to so as. aLt.ome;' in Rev: Eork
C113 -nrhosc n:'..;;:0 I can not :-ec::J.l, accept I 1.1 -..i.nJ: his rst nzae is £031,
mdbizlozrbnancismzlrinhasaaa. Idorecoilnai.-a1.l:'.FO.J..£lZ
1'..'lZ3lT 92::.: c. ::=.=*:_';.=:.:' 0.1 92.::i::. finn.
|I1'1t:a £31 cane back to the office after talking with this
aptornogr! ho told me mo-L this 12>-3'2: the c-z;:.c- cbozjv which he
hml givm to tho III. i.g;ca"..s *.-:'_-.c::1 he r.r..~: i':1:.':L qm-:;s-i:>na=i by ..hr:n..
Fo3_'Lovri.n3 this, Int before £33 tootifiecl, ho o.o1;o-.1 ms: several t:;::.o$ii'
1 hod mm him Q-.1;-_w...=¢~¢3, and cspociz-335' would ho "get c.au;_;'no short
xizilo t.osti.iy'J.n;_:?"
I?_m:~. noooipt of .210 ::.:r.o:1.': LI: first roactizn had boar:
that be vxralri toll the Gran-:1 Juzzr the 1...-"uo story oi his vorl: for rim
So'r£.oo Union, m; 1:0-.1l<1 1.-21:0 ; Hwt the ac-.11, the
_21;3or:za'L.ion 1::-:5 nova: utilized by the 30'».-'icL Jr1io:1_,c;Ln.co %.nc;,' Later
a good deal oi it was design mar}: rzhich they could. tinenselves have dono-pzzr-claasod plants covcr:-in; the i.n;£'oxma;tion o:1*3=..':"1.-2-S, s3':1i.hotic :'¢b'.>cr, and
1"..
I1
I do not recall the czzci. circ=.mso:ncc: but I do lcnrr that !L..:..T.-ll 123322 1'1:
cnzl GI'.Z-11' III. IJLTILZI, s..m1 Ibocr I, succeeded in cLs"' L*.1.:'..J" 1.; .5.-.1? from
such 2. fooloardy procedure, tc"..J.i.n.'; him that sock an ac1"::i.:;:;J.on was eazactly
what the Fozloral authorities were loo}5.ng for.
wk!-FL
I recall that I was U33, during the evening; of the day he
t.cs¬..m'*"iocl balk»-o the Zrmc. J9211;}' at eitlxcr the office oi A. it;-_':»1l2'i.Z2 and
-35-G
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I :1, evorg-t1.i:.;_' vill be 0.12." A113 than hcnood no the ouzmons.
I than vrcrrt.go mos" tho story togodocr, as long as you tell the some story that
L .7 _ _ .
to the Illsnhurst I11-:>oz~at.o:'y oi A. B?.'f
E.E'.!I and
.11 Isuociatcs anti worizocl 121* 5:03 or 6:03 .!=.1I. tho following z:~.:.=1"0.i11;;.
I had oI"'.|.gi.n-:l1;.' xrmtei to go visit 11;; fmzily 5.-= n=111=.<1¢3;»:;1=. .:m'aed.i.ate];v'
after soeirg the masons, tut LEI, told mc t.h'1t he had made an appointment
for no to -92:':"§$Tthe _».mc*" - attorney ho had seen, amp; whom I have previousk
described above, the fo-l1GTi!13 momizg. I did not soc this attorney the
following Iaorr::L'1;, but did see him the £o1J..o:mg evening, and told him
the some story that I bod. told Agents SE5.¢le'£IC!II and 0'BE1IIZ1R.
st - i.'§ " WM"L:.tc:r dzat evc:o...-'13; no at out 11:03 or 12:00 P.3.i., in
'5 office, I szs: A33. I told ABE th::.t I wmted to tall: 'n'ith him
_ . E
but 1.I.."-1*t:l:cd vr.i.oh a numbn-
. . 3'1 -4 and Associate" "mo were in the ofliceabout 1.1:: tcstmony
01' the c::,_:11o"e:: oiv .""r_.-. _ ..
at that tine, and then 8113;;-ested to mo that I go with him to drive 1513131.!
LEI"-1I3T.'Il2. haze, Co got in the car and started out, 1'i.ich cine I
kept £53; that we had :::xn?:zi@ vozjv izrportant to talk about,
but JE kept hru:11:Ln.; it ofi and went into o great disscrt:-.Lion on political
4_o,..._p-t4.-Ltheory and the declining state oi capitalism. After 1r.al:in,;=; stogs, such as
to eat wct<::':2elon an other time-1::L1J._ing incidents, we iinz=.11y arrived
at ;.BE'o garage in SI-SKI:-"1'Iid,G at about h:0D Adi. on the dqr I was to appmr
before the Grand J1r:'y. !..£tcr wasting some more time talking with the
garage attcn;L:zt~1U;otbc3:_n w_.L1:_'.n;; eroand in the nei,<;}-.borl1ood oi !J5".C's
Su:t'Q-'s:1.c1c, "¢~.'£¢m, Hm? York, and cczrirers-ed, 1 kept reminding him
~17-
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I
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about the fut ; that. I we to testify that Grcnzl Jury, but
:3 not ¢=;,:.. to: cc::sc:':1c:Z abzmt tlis. 1;: t=1.=.: no ii z were to I
be cc:1ir-o:to_. -..-;t1; was car.I'1:2.<:tin_'; stttancznt or date in :5 tcst:'.ma:z,r,
I was to use the areas."-0 that it had all h.ZT.f1f!E'G'1'l'l acne years ago and I
ma a £2-".11t3' !:1c11."1";'. Ihzrirzg um; mill: I again repeated to 113: the story
I had givun the Agents about tho manner in vizzich I oz-ig:'.r1:;._Z'.;' not
I513, 1:'._"2.cl1 1:1: tho story I p3.a:"m.oc'. to tc.I_1 the :-tad Jury that day. 1.22..
bold no not to act Sriflztcmod bofo.»"~e the {mm} Jury, Int to be d;L5:1i;'"icd
anal cab. Ho tom mo not to appear to be beg;-1:1; for clcznczzzcy or mercy
or for on their part, and even, ii nocossary, to a cert-tin
extent to be clcfiarzt. In gccacrcl/the tenor oi this advice was that I
was to tell the false story of how I had not G0.Z;I£S
IZOGDLESS and than through GQLLIS had met ABS. Tnis AK was very istcxrb
11;'><'-I1-
. I thcn told I3 that on occasions in the past I hoe. tr-.I:c<n
trips by railroad and plane, and possibly the F31 could locabc records
oi those trips. Jltluoagjh I did not coma out and say that these trips
were in comoction 1.21.1-it 1:3 Soviet espionage activiigr, it was certainly
tmder-stood by both of us that these trips um-e cazraectod with such. ABE
ns::.u~c::i no that it be very £11.21. aw record of such trips
wdd be foztl h V101: of the ]_m~gc Inmbcr oi people who we;-e travel
1;? both plane a::.;E railroad at that tins. '
At this time J.I?-3'5 t.'"1.f'e, IL-.O1.E[, w spcnding the summer at
Ali's stnzncr hone in Peeksiill, Hen? York, and at 23's requctct I was living
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92
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' 927J .5.. :...::: .4: '* . W t . _ _ ..»...de at L2-43:!, l;2nd Street, memo.
V 1:, got to bod and a_"'1.;.:~ Kan hours oi sloop
I got up zhzl dressed, aml mo roach to leave £31.: a.pr_:'t.:¢;~:1t to go to
t':z. L.;";* before the {bi Ju:'_;', :25. IE was ci;.L1I in bod. .-'.3."l' tehod
no good 112:1: and again said, "Look, H!.l".EI, you <1-o-:~.'t hold it against me
for herving bzvzjxt your name into ti-.is,do you?"
mo oiihor event that occur:-ac. oxr vrollz along S.l:IL':J.-
man Avozauo orrly on the naming of July 31. !.L'.; at that time told me
that the Agents of the FBI had been to question J1.'lé_.£ YOIKIEIZI, and had
elicited from him tho information that prior to of 19246, tk='=%. KOELCLIIEZK
had. not no and I hod been introduced to J'JL;S by 1.333 as 1 T.!JII1 I'.?.J.'JI.Z2.,
and Goa: had identified me to these Agcmts as L'lIZI I
remnsxotm1?}1HB mad domanrled to know why he had not seen JTJIES
after gfiirot c;u.e.:-tioning by the so -hot JJI.£..5 would not use the
n1.-:10 iT...1III as 1: name by 'c.1icIh he 1:0. 1.EJ"=_. said he hod been
so 1ms;.' at the-;. tine, pertic.1ler]y with the vs-.1-Lou.': c;I£:=_'£.rs at A. ?§.C'l'1I--
ILZII and I.-seocietw, that the ma-tor had jurt "slipped his mind." Tie did
not riiocmms this matter any ;"urtl1c:r, except that I said t."::.t it was 1131-
fortunate that {hm happened, but we agreed that I would tell the
story, were I quoctionol, tu.'.:.t I had used the nan: FI..'iHZ KT..CI..'.L
~- *
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er ' sue tee: levryc.-=, 'IJ..1, zinc. gave an outline oi met I Led testiiied to.|¥@. ' _ ; '
"$P-_' » I than went to L!;-'2 rsffice anal he and I had lmeh together at
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I hecl given eelcre the Grand. Jury, and i92>.r'*t1.e*: _, that I thought that I
hm? zmceaedeé. in putting acres; ta the Barr; Jur; met I was
a I.-lurxclercr, an-i in 2. very" v-."':-M": fashion, that I or mgr not have been
- _ :L::j:la'.cz:te:l .:1-._'_i- tee G:-enzl Jury was pre':i:.; into, ti :-.1, is 5e';:1_ct '
I; espinnegc.W _ L .
e-2.:--'~~_¥"*.3?7}7"Fe.-¢~.;_92-:_;,»--.. J
and 0'E'.>'E. firth questiormi
W, work at A. BIQEILRE; and Associates for about 2. coutple of months} mereI vr:~'11d like to state here that 29.20".-t the time Lgzznts ""e.t..¢.."Z.I.."21I
LEI; and m;,'sc1.i, I receive-c.1 no pay for 1:51"
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in the I-3R31'1=-FL-,-' o:.";';-.ces, 'a:.:J.le B?.3"fii- &:.r1;_
cu: ;'-;:.nu.r-z" 1c;*.' ?1r':~.'1._*.;_' 0: 1'e:"1'
week in June l;*I,,3, am nu:-e
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Z 92'.':nl.r'. 3_3.'~:c to add cmt mre m.;:;'b. .'.;'te:" 15; hhd" shown
ma. "nae s.1-.1201: rurfaecti-Ag nu to a,pe.:.1- befor: -£~.;~=e 12-ma Jury on the
31:1 oi July 1.3'.';.".,, ha: :";.E :2: a t,_v_;~,:.-..z*5...c,c*:1 copj "=5 his testimzzy as
ha L4." clc:'..:..'.l. .L-.. L; }......" 2..u*".frcr. I n-aver i-..J :2;-z:.'.; c£,;1- cs bra mare than
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m he hm 1:31. c-.11. ?.::".;' ........:1""" '5 p'.L:j"»o:'_1;-', b:1.i.a':'l.:1; that ii. i:a.;1r.1 be
best. 20': t;.=c 11:11 to lam: abut them: c=.-2L.r.i3.s-
!.ltE"1o..,3, - Prior to .=.L;5' 0:? 191:6, 1.35, 1;;-:1 lcnovzz me umier the
n_.' of. II;J" 327 1;, , . - - gi?e':1 5.21 the 11.2.:-.-:: oi" 1i.';;.i 3'13, 6123 ,
iimndrod St..r:~r:*., Fni1.@r1eL::r.ia, Pen:*..=r._r1w."..ni.a, a:-a pcrsm to than IE
could direct a ietber '6-9-:14: or canmwicate mtg; ms. :1 "
Ag"-ants 732221111 and I-£212.13.-; have mdlnitcd a letter dated in I
ions at
A111-I-it of 195:5, ¢'i.rc>.ctr.-:2 abave :.i"rr-.::.s ::n:'. s:.g;~.c::. by .»£."_'i'.'_-I .
equsstcd that. I do sore orl: an the &.'nt.he._...s-* ~ oi ...-Ji.::.
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I would like to add that in reference to the
statement on page 20 relative to ABE's admonition that I remain Iith
him in case we were re-questioned by the FBI, that my real reason for
staying with A. BRQTHMAE and Associates was not this fear of further
questioning, but out of loyalty to a foundering fine.
I have read the above statement consisting of this and
21 typewritten pages and have signed each page, because all of the
knowledge contained therein is true to the best of my knowledge and
bliafe
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