[Commentary · Candace Owens] Candace x Hunter Biden: The Interview

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COMMENTARY by Candace Owens — "Candace x Hunter Biden: The Interview" (published 2026-05-21).
This is third-party opinion/analysis ABOUT State of Utah v. Tyler James Robinson — NOT the court record. It is indexed for comparison against the primary transcripts/filings. Transcript is the YouTube auto-caption track (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux1kzgQxkws) — verbatim ASR.

Hunter Biden, welcome to the Candace Owen Show. >> It's wonderful to be here. >> People are just going to be like, "How on earth did this happen?" >> I know. >> I got to give them a bit of a back story. So, I um I I went to dinner with a fellow podcaster and we were just talking about interviews cuz we don't do too many interviews on the show and he >> he first asked me what was the best interview I ever did and I said without question the USS Liberty Survivor, Phil Turney. >> And then he said, "What would be your top interview that you'd want to do?" And I said, "Oh gosh, we're in such a different time now. Like, I'm just not interested in politics. Like, it would have to be something so different." And then I said, "Actually, Hunter Biden." And I said to him, "I watched your sitdown with Andrew Callahan." >> Yeah. >> And it was kind of the most refreshing interview that I had seen in politics for in a very long time because we're so used to being gaslit about various things happening. Everyone's trying to hide stuff. And we read a lot about you. I guess we didn't really hear anything from you. So, this was kind of the first time, but I heard you in your own words just totally owning your addiction issues, also going after Jake Tapper and George Clooney. And when we were kind of expecting the typical Democrat like these are great guys, these guys are amazing. Jake Tapper should, you know, win a Pelitzer. I don't know. And I I would just it wasn't what I was expecting is what I would say. So, uh and then that person just sort of made this happen. >> Yeah. So, I I want to just sort of get into the Hunter Biden story. I will say to the audience right now, I have already uh made the pledge right when I got on the phone with you that like obviously I'm not going to make you say anything bad about your father because that would just be completely demonic to be like say something terrible about your father. Everyone knows my opinions, my political perspectives. They're already out there. He is your dad. So, that is separate from my view points >> because there's no way I possibly could. >> Yeah, of course. I I totally get that. Um, but there's a lot to be said about you and a lot that I guess hasn't been said about your journey. And uh, I guess I want to start with just one question for the culture. The cocaine that was found at the White House. [laughter] >> Was it yours? >> No, not only was it not mine, no. Number one is thank you for having me here. And one of the reasons is is to be able to answer these questions. You know, the one thing I am uh after six years of this, I've been sober since June 1st of 2019, cleanly sober, verifiably so, by the way. And uh verifiably so by the the the uh the Bureau of uh of probation in which I was drug tested randomly for over the course of two years while I went through my trials and things like that. But beyond that is that uh uh to directly to your question, I wasn't even there. Not only there, but people have to understand is where that cocaine was found was, you know, the visitors entrance underneath the the o that is where visitors come in and uh and they come over from the old executive office building staff to go to the um uh go to the oval or go to the chief of staff's office or to the offices in the West Wing. And it was found in a cubby in uh right outside of the situation room. >> Mhm. >> And it's like no possibility, not even remotely beyond the fact that I wasn't even there. I mean, I spent probably, you know, over the course of 4 years, maybe um 25 days at the White House, like 25 nights, 30 if I, you know, I'm being fair. And so it's just a you know it was an easy easy you know um I was I'm an easy target uh and understandably so >> right >> I mean I've been I think probably the most famous addict uh and uh famous person um through the grace of God in recovery for seven years but or close to seven years June 1st. So >> yeah I definitely thought you were on drugs while your father was in the White House. I don't know, but I think it might have just also been the timing of the laptop coming out and then people just assuming >> that you were still on drugs. I don't know. That might have been why in our heads we thought that. I think that that it was that that they purposely conflated um you know my [clears throat] I wrote a book and which came out in April of 2021 in which I uh did something that very few people I think ever in in that are kind of like similarly situated to me do in which I was 100% frank about the fact that not only was I an addict not only was I alcoholic I don't really see the distinction between the two one they're both drugs but I was a crack addict like I was a degenerate crack addict. I mean, >> I've heard you call me a crackhead many times and the truth of the matter is I was a crackhead. [laughter] >> And and and um and and I say that not to shock people because it's really shocking. Um, uh, crack cocaine carries such a stigma to it to begin with, but I say it because I think that there are so many people I don't think I know there are so many people. I think that there's, you know, at any given time 30 million Americans that are either in active addiction or in recovery. There's not a single person that I know that hasn't been impacted by addiction at some level in some form personally or with someone that is one degree of separation from that they love. No one that I know. >> Least of all me. >> Yeah. And Yeah. And and um and part of that one of the reasons I'm here you that the stories that you tell about that in terms of um >> my family >> your family and uh and and there is where the common ground is for me. I'm I can 100% say this is that I a friend of mine uh said gave me this quote um about two years ago and it's become my mantra is that it's Mother Teresa it was attributed to Mother Teresa is if you want to change the world go home and love your family that's that is my that's that's my everything. uh now. And um and part of that is not just the family that you have um by uh blood and birth, but also the community that uh that you're inextricably uh tied to. And that community for me is the recovery community and it's people that are still sick and suffering from addiction. And so the biggest reason that I wanted to come talk to you beyond the fact and this is not me blowing smoke, I think that >> regardless of whether I agree with you that you're probably the most effective communicator um uh I've ever heard behind a microphone >> and it's really me [laughter] crazy at times. [gasps] It really really really made me mad. Yeah. Um um but is is it is it I wanted to talk to you about those things and anything else you want to talk about. Yeah, I was I'm most interested in the addiction story and it and I was saying to you before we got >> uh before we started rolling that this was sort of something that I noticed when I would cover various topics whether it was pornography, drugs on my show, uh drinking, how many men would write and say they were suffering with various things and yet they don't often speak about um like how they're quietly suffering with whether it's with addiction to pornography, addiction to drugs and I don't think there are enough conversations about it. And so when I watched that interview of you just just laying it out there, something that most people try to hide or they're shameful of, I was like, there actually just needs to be more dialogue about it. I grew up with tons of addicts in my family. I have people in my family who are still addicted. Um, and there is I think there is a natural anger that people have when they for some reason believe and I think this was part of the anger that even some that I had toward you before I I heard you speak about your addiction is that you sort of think when somebody has money and political connections that that somehow removes them um from going through these sorts of barriers in life. So, when I grew up, it's like, okay, like you have uncles, whatever that are addicted to crack, you have cousins that are doing crack, whatever it is, or or experimenting with meth and drugs and those things, and then you see someone that has a life of privilege, and for some reason in your mind, you wrongly go, "Okay, that can't happen." And it did happen. And I actually I'd like to hear like how you got addicted, like what was actually the the story, your path toward addiction. >> Yeah. So, I thank you for uh letting me talk about that or asking me about it. And I really mean it. It um one of the things that traps people I can only speak about myself, but I think that uh people that are in uh that that are addicts or that are in recovery also, you find out really fast is that you're not as terminally unique as you think you are. is that um and one of the things that uh uh that is really important about addicts talking to each other and talking about it is that realization because one of the things that traps you in your addiction is shame. >> And you know you you like me are um are Catholic and we have learned that guilt is an appropriate emotion. Guilt is a is an appropriate response to something when you've done something wrong and you're supposed to atone for it and you're supposed to seek forgiveness whether the forgiveness comes from an individual or not. You're that that is the um that's the lesson is that it is in uh only uh through seeking that forgiveness can you release yourself from that guilt. That's appropriate. Shame is not. Shame is just absolutely corrosive. Shame is you telling yourself that you're not worthy, that you're never going to be worthy, that you that the things that you've done, you can never be redeemed from. And I've done horrible things in my addiction in terms of what I did in terms of my relationships and and decisions that I made. And more than anything is just removing myself from uh being present for the people that love me. Um and um and what happened to me um and I really mean this is that the exposure, not peace meal, but the total exposure, my entire digital footprint stolen from me, a 20-year digital footprint, every text message, every picture, every all of the things that uh that you would be ashamed of became uh front page news for for four years, for 5 years um beginning in 2019. And uh and it forced me into a choice. And the choice was do I get out of bed and live or do I die? And it became that much of a dichotomy. And I uh and I chose to live. And it wasn't easy. And um and maintaining sobriety in in that kind of like a pressure cooker. >> Mhm. >> Um is often the thing that triggers you. But something broken me in a good way which was that I no longer have any fear. I I like you know sitting down with you is to me an all an opportunity for you to see me as a human being and not um you know Hunter Biden laptop. >> Yeah. and the pictures that you know uh Congressman Green uh like put up uh in Congress or the or the New York Post. You know, I think I was on the cover of the New York Post in one year more than any uh anybody in the history of the paper and none of it was good. [laughter] None of it was good. And um but what it's given me is the opportunity to own it all. is to own uh all of my story without shame or fear. Um uh realizing that I um I have a community of people out there that I want to uh I want to be of service to. I really mean that. And and um and so and part of it is by me being able to be honest about it. We were just talking before we started this is the hardest thing for any addict to do is is not only get honest with the people that they love but to get honest with themselves. >> And until they can until they can really see themselves for who they are all of it >> and and decide to love themselves then you know uh yeah the cycle is just going to continue. It's just at least in my experience that that's the truth. >> I think one of the things >> did I even answer your question? Yeah. Well, I want to talk about the first time that you got introduced to it because that's interesting. >> I know. I went into all the good stuff. >> Yeah. Actually, do start with that. Like, how did you actually get introduced? >> First off, describe for people who don't know uh the difference between cocaine and crack cuz crack is is a lot more addictive. And so, just what is the difference? >> I know. I got a lot of heat for >> No, it was fantastic. It was fantastic. I was like, well, he's actually very educated on this. And >> well, it was it's important to me to make the the distinction that that there's this idea that um that there's this kind of a secret kind of special enhancement to uh to powder cocaine that makes it into crack. And you know, you have to have, you know, uh some uh technical degree in order to be able to to to to do that. And let's start all the way at the beginning. I think that I'm genetically predisposed to be an alcoholic. I do believe that there is a genetic piece of it. I do believe that my brain works differently as an addict in terms of the way in which my synapses um uh fire once they're introduced to the dopamine hit and the serotonin um increase that occurs because of an introduction of a substance. I believe that uh that that I became u acclimated and um physiologically dependent upon that when I um started to drink in earnest um when I was in college and which you can control and you know I made it through Georgetown and uh I went to Jesuit volunteer corps for a year and and uh and it's kind of like domestic peace well you know the JBC I was JBC for >> a year after after college >> and Um, and then I went to Yale Law School, you know, was married, had um um my my oldest daughter when I was a first year law student and made it through all of that and made it through my um first years of employment drinking probably more than everybody uh than than most people do, but completely functional. And one day I woke up when I was 33 years old to my brother calling me and said, "This has got to stop." like you got to stop. And um and and what he meant was is that you know like a whole weekend was missing kind of and um and I and I said okay. And he drove me to the airport and uh he put me on a plane in New York and I flew to a place that was started by Eric Clapton called u uh Crossroads in Antigua. and I went to rehab and I came out and I and I went directly when I came out my brother picked me up from the airport, drove me to an AA meeting, walked in with me, Dupont Circle in in uh DC. I met my sponsor at that first meeting that I ever went to and and I stayed clean and sober for um for about seven years and uh and then I relapsed and uh and it was just such a mundane stupid story. I was on a plane by myself. Everything was okay. Things were looking up. It was you know uh you know normal life pressures but it was all good. And that's the um that's the real insidious thing about addiction and alcoholism. It it never goes away necessarily. There's always the answer that is being presented to you by the thing that you trust the most, which is your brain. >> And what it says is if you don't want to feel this way, whatever the way is, or if you want to feel this way even more, I have the answer for you. And I was on a plane by myself and I had a drink. And that drink in 2010, seven years almost of sobriety. Started a cycle of uh relapse and recovery and relapse and recovery in which it was really hard for me to be honest with the people that love me because I just wanted to hide it. I just wanted it to go away and I thought, okay, I'll get through this cycle and you know, I'll sleep it off uh this weekend and that that's it. I'm done. And that would last a week and then it would last 3 months and then I went back to rehab and then it became kind of then I came back and I started I mean talk about you talk about this all the time which I love that you do. It was bigma, you know what I and I had shingles and so somebody prescribed me like 52 oxy co like I mean ridiculous and I started that and and then I started drinking again and the prescription ran out and then this cycle just started to happen and um but when my brother died uh it all fell apart. B and I uh were uh and like I don't purport that our relationship was unique or that his loss was greater than my my loss of him was greater than anybody else's loss of their brother or someone that they deeply deep deep deeply loved. But when my mom and sister and my Bo and I were in a car accident in 1972, um, and we survived, it was the two of us every day. We're a year and a day apart. We talked every day. I mean, except when he was in Iraq, I literally probably talked to my brother every day. And um and uh and when I when Bo died, my marriage fell apart uh after 20 years, 22 years. Um uh by the way for reasons that uh marriage just fell apart, you know, and but I take a lot of responsibility for and uh and it just started a really really dark cycle in the past when I would uh when I would have these relapses there was there was always someone in such proximity to me that they would like you know I couldn't escape. I couldn't escape. In this instance, Bo was gone. I uh right after Bo uh died. Um I uh um ended up uh um separated from my wife like within the month and my dad for the first time in my life who was my rock uh was stuck in his own grief like deep deep grief >> and and I just went down into [clears throat] a hole and I checked myself into a rehab that year and came out stayed sober for a while and then relapsed and then went into a um an outpatient program in DC where I went like, you know, four hours every day for, you know, from 8 to 2 or or 6 hours every day. Um so, and then I relapsed and I came back and they said, "Well, you have to I admitted to them that I relapsed and and that in this instance, I also used cocaine." And they said, "Well, you have to take a a um a drug test." And I said, I'm not going to take a drug test. I'm not going to put something on, you know, it's because it's not protected by HIPPA in a rehab uh uh uh scenario, which is crazy, right? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Anyway, long story short, they said, "You can't come back in unless you take the drug test." And I said, "I'm not taking the drug test. I'm going through a divorce. It's not protected by HIPPA. It will become public. I don't want to do this to my family. I like I'm telling you I use cocaine and I drank. Is that not good enough? Come back. And they said no. For whatever reason, and I'm not blaming them. This is not their fault. I walked out and I knew Lincoln Park was a kind of open air drug market. I saw a woman that was a kind of famous in the area since I had been in college literally for 20 years that I would see in the streets around, you know, DC in that area where I worked for a long time and I said I went up to her and I said, "Can I get some crack?" >> Wow. >> And I think it was basically I said, "Can you help me commit suicide?" I mean, I I don't think I know that that now in in uh looking back it was the coward's way. And I really mean that. I was a coward. I I didn't go and just do it. I said, "Let me do it this way and really really really drag everybody down with me along the way. Let let me figure out the way not only to kill myself, but to maybe kill my dad, you know, really hurt my family. Um, uh, particularly my my three daughters who like adore me and I adore like just the the the fact And I and I smoke crack. And the the difference between crack cocaine and powdered cocaine is this. And I really truly do not want to give a road map for people to be able to um uh do this because I swear to God it'll kill you. But it's sodium bicarbonate, which is baking soda, water, heat. That's it. That's all. That is the entire difference of it. Which allows it to be ingested through a smoking And the combination of those things makes it so that it affects your physiology much faster than it would be if you just use powder cocaine through your nose or in any other form other than intervenously. And it also allows you to ingest more faster than you could possibly ever ingest by sniffing cocaine up your nose. The combination of that, the combination of combustion, ritual and uh the ritual meaning the way in which you have to you know uh I mean I can still feel my hands doing it. >> Mhm. >> Is you know becomes this ritualistic thing with the combination of combustion which is uh and you learn you I mean if you really study things about addiction is these kind of key components of um oral fixation and things like that. It just becomes the most ungodly addiction that you can possibly imagine to the point where I was smoking crack, you know. I mean, literally, you know, I was either looking for or smoking or recovering. Not even recovering. You don't recover. You just go find more for um close to a 2-year period of time. >> Wow. >> And it took me to places, you know, I wrote all about it and I got made fun of about it. And you know, people think that, you know, when I wrote my book, like, you know, cl you know, clawing through the carpet to find crack cocaine and, you know, Parmesan cheese and, you know, and I know it's a real laugh line, but anybody that's ever been an addict like that, they don't laugh about it. It's devastating. Think that you were that person. You can see yourself doing it. >> Just devastating. And so what happens in addiction so often is this is people not only they can't admit that they can't even admit it to themselves. They just block it out. They go they get 30 days clean. They come out. They go back into the same exact situation that they were in before and they think I'm just not going to do it again. I I'm just going to stay. You like I I I'm going to make it. I'm going to make it. And what will come up is that that they'll wake up in the morning and they'll remember that time in the motel with the, you know, the person, the prostitute that brought you the drugs and um that stole just stole your wallet and all your and and every all your drugs and everything and you had to you were calling through carpet to see if there was anything there and you smoke whatever white that you found on the ground. Like it's the shame >> is thinking of [clears throat] yourself like that. Regardless of who you are, regardless of where you came from, whether your dad's the president of the United States or it doesn't matter. And they don't admit that to themselves. They don't admit it to anyone around them. Don't ever say it. And you know what happens? They never lose it. And it sits like right here, like in the back of your head, and it pops up. And you just feel so disgusted with yourself that your brain immediately tells you regardless of how far away for you are from a drink or a drug. Like I know the way not to feel this way. I know exactly how to feel this way. You're going to die if you keep feeling this way. You need you need to take a drink. >> And that's always how it starts. I mean alcohol is the most dangerous drug in the world. um uh just by virtue of the amount of destruction and um and devastation that is uh that comes personally and to the people around people that are alcoholics and I don't find any difference between being an addict and an alcoholic. Um and uh but that's where it starts then that's where it started for me. That was my that's my story until I met Melissa and got clean and sober and have been so you know almost 7 years now. All right, you guys. Some moments change everything. 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So, check out Nimi Skincare today at nimiskare.com and use code candis 10 at checkout for a special discount. Again, that's neimieskinare.com. Promo code candace10 at checkout. When you're in that moment, and I guess people don't realize like you're going through this and you're you don't get to decide what your father does for a living. And I think that's probably why people separated as well, too, because like I said, there's this idea of what a politician's family is supposed to be. >> Um, and you obviously are because I genuinely understand what that those sorts of addictions do. I I don't think people realize you're not you're just not even yourself. Like you're like it's like a demon as better the best way to say it and maybe I'm taking a Catholic take on this but like it's like a full demonic possession um when you're in the throws of these drugs. And I mean this was actually a great benefit of A&E doing intervention because people could really see these moments where people will choose the drug over their family. They will choose the drug over their kids. They will choose, you know, they'll choose the drug over literally anything. And for people who and I would I actually tend to agree with you that I I've wondered myself if there's something genetic because I I'm not wired that way. I I or maybe I just haven't found the drug that would do that to me. But like I would say that like I've just never been >> um never had something was like I just need to have that again or want it again. And I've seen friends that they have something once and they're like want to do this every second. And I go that's very interesting. Like it's almost like you're you're made of something different. Totally. I'm I'm certain of that and I and the science is certain of that in many ways. I mean we all can uh I think that we all can um associate with um understand addiction at um more or less devastating um levels. So for instance, where's your phone? I mean you have a you you basically have a pecket of heroin, >> right? we all do in the pocket >> constantly giving us that doping which by the way we can get to talking about that because I think that that that we are not nearly as divided of people as we think that we are. I think that that bag of heroin in everybody's pocket um is feeding them a lot of that division, but is so we can all kind of understand the compulsion to do things that aren't um that clearly aren't benefiting us like staying up uh until 3:00 in the morning and going through your for you page on TikTok. Mhm. >> Um, every mother, father, uh, can watch their teenager um, uh, do that and go, "God, this is awful." And I'm going to take his phone away and then they turn back to their phone and they they start going through their phone like and I and I'm, you know, I'm I am not any uh, better. I So, we can kind of all understand that compulsion. It's when the compulsion becomes just so uh uh the the the blast radius continues to grow. >> Mhm. >> So the the difference between being a um uh you know addicted to your phone um and being addicted to crack cocaine I'm not saying are are the same but at least we can kind of get a little bit of an understanding of the physiology of that of the way in which the brain actually works. Um but it's >> like the micro versus the macro. Yeah. And everybody has the micro. >> But so you can you can see the the the micro impact of it. Um and but I think that one of the reasons that why people are um so like shocked by my story and and by the way and we're able to conflate. So if the New York Post every day for six years uh runs a a picture on uh you know on online. I mean I think they literally at one point did like uh 1.5 stories of me a day for an entire 18th month period. Okay. And um in each it didn't matter what the subject was. It was a picture of me naked >> with the prostitute >> with whatever and with a with crack with a crack pipe in my lips. What? Like I So I don't get mad at people when they go like was that your cocaine? Like well number one you know the White House. It's like this just doesn't make any sense. I had seven secret agents with me at any given time everywhere I went. the idea that I was in the situation room and would decide to drop Alpha. I mean that but beyond beyond that silliness is the um is I don't blame people for not realizing that I have worked my effing ass off. I mean in this environment the proudest thing that I've ever done is stay clean and sober through all of that. every piece of it, right? Both the trials, through the accusations, through the, you know, Alexander Smeirnoffs and Galofs and and you know, Constantine Kulix and and Lebarnes and Rudy's and Steve Bannons and every all of that is purely because of the love of the people around me and my willingness to own it all. I'm I'm sitting in front of you. >> Yeah. >> And and you're not taking that away from me, >> right? >> No. And by the way, that's the beauty of it. >> Yeah. >> The realization at one point is that you can try. I have no fear. No fear. And um and that doesn't and that's why I'm here more than anything is because I like I don't I I I probably you know I'm certain that we disagree on a lot of stuff but there used to be a time Candace where you and I could sit down together and disagree about tax policy >> and disagree about um you know the the Catholic Church's view on abortion or disagree with I mean whatever whatever the subject may be and still be able to go have a meal together, >> right? I talk about that often on my show. Like I I back when I was left leaning in college, my best friend was Republican conservative. Like it it wasn't so at each other's throats and hating each other and wanting to destroy one another and you know, you could kind of see the good and the bad and go, well, um, you know, this is why I have this perspective and perspectives could change and that was allowed, too. You know, I I think about what it was that just revisiting what made a lot of people, including myself, so angry about you. Um, or I guess it wasn't really about you. It was the gaslighting. It was the letter that came from people saying it was Russian propaganda. That is what is driving us crazy about the Epstein files right now. It's what's actually leading, ironically, to the collapse of the MAGA support is we don't want to be gas lit. And to be fair, it wasn't you that that's why it was so refreshing when you were like, "Yes, I had a crack edition. This is me. I did this. I was with hookers, but you weren't speaking for you. And they were there were literally a bunch of people that were coming out and saying this is not real. And that is the most infuriating thing for because everyone's average. Everyone can connect with addiction. Everyone could have this conversation. Actually, if you would come out and and probably in that environment obviously maybe that would there would have been a different result because we were at each other's throats. Exactly. But that is what made people so angry. It was like nope, he never smoked cracked. It wasn't real. Yeah, >> the laptop is Russian propaganda. Like, guys, what is this? >> Yeah. By the way, is that here's the problem is that Steve Bannon saved and Rudy Giuliani saved the quote unquote laptop, which by the way is [ __ ] that that like if we can agree on that gaslighting, I will agree on the gaslighting of this is that is that it was never a quote unquote laptop. there was a hard drive, okay, of stolen and um uh hacked material where wherever it came from, whether it came from a Delaware repair shop or whether it came like Le Parna says from Dimmitri Fertash who was trying to sell a hard drive, Hunter Biden's in um in Ukraine, you know, that they were looking for before the laptop repair shop guy was ever the twinkle in the eye. Just go back and look at the record. Okay. So, here's the thing is you're absolutely right and the the and and this is like the the freedom of being able to say this. It's like, yeah, they should have let me go out and talk. >> Yeah. >> But it was two weeks before the campaign and then and and and then the the election was over. Steve Bannon, it goes on uh and with his buddy Ga um you know the Chinese billionaire that's now in prison and you know that that is like a Chinese spy or whatever you know where he got arrested on his boat and all that crap is it I mean there is a go listen to it go listen to the recorded conversation in which they say like the laptop like we got them we like you know so we put all we we collected all the salacious pictures and we put them out there and then Rudy went out and stood on the steps of the Newcastle County courthouse with Bernie Carrick and said this contains child child exploitation like pure um uh you know I mean pure [ __ ] just [ __ ] so on both sides you have this reaction you know which I don't think was necessarily a coordinated reaction in in the sense that what do you do in two weeks and so they come up with this and they say and I don't get to go out and say Uh, you know, no, I was. But you know what I did is that come April, I write a book and I tell everybody I was addicted to crack >> and here's my story >> and here's what happened and here is the all of the rooms that no one would ever want to admit to to being in that I was in and uh and and it was like a blip on the radar because everybody was now fighting about whether there was kind of a suppressed story on Twitter and whether there was a um this gaslighting from you know and by the way I am not here to defend any of >> but then it's part of like the political machine where they're like we have two weeks to go to the election we're going to do this denial you know because we we can't afford this right now essentially and so and then we're going to table this make it past these two weeks and then by that time first and foremost your father won right so uh you know and so people are angry they feel like the election's been stolen and that there was this entire collusion to cover a laptop, which if it was on the other side, they may have done too. This is what DC is. It's politics. But that that is where the I think the anger came from. And it was just like, >> I get it. >> How dare you gas at us? And then people then start making you this focal point of >> it had anything to do with me, >> right? It was kind of bigger than you at that point. >> You know what the laptop proved? >> That you were a crackhead. [laughter] >> There you go. that you keep in the other all this other [ __ ] >> you know, bribery and all these other things >> that they investigated up and down during the Trump administration with a Trump appointed US attorney with the Trump appointed US attorney, the only US attorney in the in the country to stay on and continue to prosecute me, who then became special counsel after I got a plea deal because I paid my taxes late and I paid them with penalties and interest and I owned a gun for 11 days while they say I was addicted and and check that box. >> That's it. >> Everybody has all the information. It's not like the Department of Justice has the dig my digital footprint in every text message, every email. There's not a single one in which you find that that that would in any way supports the really serious accusations of uh enriching my father enriching himself somehow or none of it. None of it's there. So, I own whatever you want to call it. I own the laptop. Come, you know what? We can go through it together. >> If you're willing to like avert your eyes to the to the tragedy >> of addiction, I mean, just the absolute tragedy of it. >> Yeah. >> But man, oh man, we have not there is no space for that in discourse anymore. There's no space for the nuance of uh you know, well that was addiction, that wasn't corruption. You know, I did not do any business through entire four years. I I became a painter. You know why I became a painter? Because it literally saved my life. I painted my whole life. And Melissa instinctively knew that I literally needed to like occupy my hands in early recovery like 12 hours a day, like just, you know, like to be able to focus on the not the the crushing weight of the consequences of years of addiction. And so I just sat and I painted and I painted and I painted and I decided to have a show in the gallery and, you know, and offer my paintings for sale. And New York Post comes out and says, "Hunter Biden's selling his paintings for a half a million dollars. I have never sold a painting nor offered a painting for a half a million dollars in my freaking life." And by the way, everybody knows this because every painting that I sold, everybody that bought a painting had to pay about a4 million dollars to defend themselves before an impeachment uh hearing. Go read the transcripts of people under oath. But regardless is this is the laptop absolutely proved nothing but it became this this cultural touchstone. It was like it it embodied the Biden crime family. >> Mhm. And if you wanted to be able to believe that, not wanted to be able to believe that, if you believe that because you're being told that by people that you trust that have told you that your election was stolen, that your democracy was thor thwarted, that that the process was um unfair. Is that all you had to do, and I get this, is look at the pictures. It doesn't look like a good guy to me, >> right? Cuz you weren't a good guy in the pictures. No. Smoking crack in a motel room with a prostitute, right? >> Like you know what I mean? Like they they come out and like they're saying, "Oh, like this all like I admit it all. Not only admit it all, I own it all. >> I will I will own everything. The worst of it. >> All of it." And then being like I I mean now in retrospect and things have changed. I mean times have changed. I like I said I was one of the chief people that was really angry about it and it did that was the exact reason why when I reexamined it, it was the gaslighting. It's the same reason why I'm angry with Trump over the Epste thing. It's like I can't come back from media gaslighting. The Trump thing is worse because it came from his own mouth, the gaslighting. So, it wasn't like people trying to cover it up. It was like Trump being like, "What Epsteine Files? Are we still talking about the Epstein files?" And so, uh, but then things kind of changed, I think, with time also because I was very definitely say I was close with Don Jr., traveled a lot with him through the the Hunter Biden laptop scandal. we talked about it, this corruption du can't believe they denied it. All these photos coming out and then we get whatever this, you know, Trump family is now. And it's like, man, I I think it was a historian that wrote on X exactly how I feel, which is I wish I could go back to the days where I thought like Hunter Biden's art was the most corrupt deal that was done in politics. And now we're going, okay, you know, we stood behind Trump, we fought, we shared the photos of Hunter Biden to the extent that we could, and now we have their family engaged in so many um corrupt deals, the meme coins, the taking advantage of people. And you go, okay, well, what we actually have is DC is corrupt. Politics is corrupt. And I I think it is kind of a unifying point, not to excuse, you know, the gaslighting of people for two weeks, which made people super angry. Um, but I I do think it's just a different time where people are kind of going back and examining. I And I feel actually terrible realizing that you were finally clean and then it's just this humiliation ritual over and over and over again of people putting everything out there and not realizing also your kids are facing this consequence as well. Um, which people do not think about a lot of times when they publish stories. Like I even was reticent and didn't cover the Chrissy Gnome thing because the first thing that came to my mind um, >> they got kids. >> Those are kids. Like I'm like these are kids that are about to go to college like and so and why are they doing this? Because she's in politics, right? And so this becomes they don't think about the children >> and >> yeah I mean I think I now now that I have kids too I think there's just like wow they don't sign up for what I do for podcasting. Kids don't like sign up for that kind of stuff. >> Yeah. You know number one though kids are way more resilient than than you think. so much tougher. And uh and I know um they I my girls like God, they're and [clears throat] I and they love me and deeply and and I can 100% accept that love now and return it with everything that I have to offer. But you're, you know, part of what you're describing is politics immemoriam, >> you know, part of it. But something's changed in this. There is a meanness um a willingness to adopt uh very very unamerican uh tactics um uh against our opponents because it become a zero sum game. Mhm. >> It's not just that I disagree with you. It's you need to be punished. You need to be punished for what you believe. You know, there's this incredible show. I really want to meet them one day. You probably I don't know if you've listened it to. It's uh called The Necessary Conversation. Have you listened to that? >> Incredible. It's a brother and a sister who are progressives. One lives in LA and like one lives in Austin. Okay. Something like that. and she runs a bakery. His sister and a mom and dad and they are ultra mega and I think they're like in you know Missouri somewhere. Okay. And I mean like don't take their caps off. Trump literally can do no wrong. He's playing 4D chess on the Epstein thing. the you know I know he said no war in Iran but you know uh he must have a reason for it and you can't convince like literally the but they have this conversation and they have real issues with each other like the daughter gets really mad at the dad like dad you were a jerk to us when we were kids you made me but then she has this conversation with her mom who loves animals and like taught her about empathy and they would adopt all you know these animals and they would uh and you you find out like her dad taught, you know, or coached all of their little league games and she was a softball player and she if a kid couldn't like afford the uniform, a dad would quietly go out and buy the unifor and he's awful on this thing by the way like he's like he's and like in terms of the way that he speaks and he speaks to them and he's like tough and I don't get I don't give a [ __ ] and you know drop a bomb on him kind of you know >> but it's so informative is before. That's a normal family. >> Mhm. >> That's the thing. Before you and I could meet at a restaurant um in Georgetown and your husband and my wife and we could have dinner together and like like with Tucker, I knew Tucker, you know what I mean? And um and like you could have dinner together and think that what Tucker was saying was crazy. I don't agree with and I don't agree with you know half the stuff you but you know what it didn't mean it didn't mean that I thought that he should be tried for treason and executed and that's what happened to me and I mean that not figuratively I mean it literally that's what people were saying and that's what people of real importance were saying those were the words that were coming out of the the the mouth and and I'm paraphrasing of people like um like Steve Bannon and people like Rudy Giuliani, people of authority, and it changes everything is how can you even have a discussion? For instance, how could I go out and talk about uh how could I respond? Was that cocaine mine? >> Like what do you want? You want me to take a drug test? Because I'm taking a drug test almost weekly for the Department of uh of corrections and and probation. You know, I have a probation officer. You know, I'm on release until trial. you know, but what do you do? Do you Is that the statement that you make to the the New York Post? It's impossible. Becomes impossible. So, what do you do? You realize this and I don't know if you feel this way in your in your own life. Is that you know what the real problem is? It's not out there. It's not that person. If I could just get Steve Bannon to tell the truth. If I could just get Rudy Giuliani to stop lying about me. If I could just get Constantine Kulak to say that he wrote the if I like it's not there. You realize in order to survive it is all inside. Every single piece of it is about figuring out how to love yourself, not live in that shame. And in order for you to be able to be of service first or you know to Melissa like return the beautiful thing that she gave me which was a chance >> that to be of service to my dad to return the unconditional love which is not love without consequences not love without accountability. It's just knowing that no matter what, even through the consequences and being held accountable, that that person still loves me. >> All right, you guys. When I think about the future, I picture the little moments that matter most. Family dinners, bedtime stories, lazy Sundays at home. The people that we love are the center of everything that we're building. But there's one conversation that so many of us put off, and that's usually surrounding what would happen if we were not here. That's really what life insurance is about. It's about making sure your family is protected, supported, and able to move forward no matter what life brings. 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I think that was also what came across in your interview with Andrew Callahan where after I watched it, I think in it sort of edited my opinion about that relationship between your dad because I think since the laptop scandal, my in my mind it was it was I guess a bit cartoonish where it was like, well, you can do whatever you want. You know, smoke crack, you know, we were just powerful. We'll cover it, you know, we'll do like that's the like whatever. We we've have so much power. We've acquired so much power. And then when I sort of saw you really defending your dad over this George Clooney thing, I was like, "Okay, this is just a normal father son relationship, like people can't apply that for some reason when you're talking about a president uh or or somebody that has access to power, but he just loves his dad." And this is the way any normal person would defend their dad. If they said something about your father, if they said something about your son, like this is so normal that I think that's what >> was a bit like um arresting for me. I was like, "This is very normal dynamic. He doesn't care if Jake Tapper's on his side. He doesn't care if George Clooney is on his side. That's his dad that you're talking about. And he's having a natural reaction that I would have if someone was talking about my dad, my grandparents, my sister, um my cousin, even the one even when they do something wrong, by the way. Like it's like, okay, no, but like that's my family member who did something wrong. >> And and so you have no right and I will I will breathe fire on someone. And that's kind of And you're right. And now it's getting >> dirtier. The games people are playing are dirtier. And it is about wanting you to feel unsafe. And I think that is something that is so new when you have people posting your address, posting where you are, knowing that you have children. And >> yeah, I I really do. And it is over perspective. Like for me, it was me changing my mind on Israel and suddenly I'm getting the New York Post treatment and uh I'm getting all these people coming after me and I'm going, "This is my perspective. You're welcome to try to debate me on why I feel the way I feel about what is cuz I have two eyes about what's happening in Gaza." But to do these tactics where you're trying to destroy people uh is that feels very very new to me. >> Yeah. And that that let's be not let's be honest. I hate that phrase. Okay. I got it from my perspective is this. I know where that started. And that started when uh uh Donald Trump from rally stages started the where's Hunter or yell where's Hunter call and response crowds and then they printed t-shirts and then they made hats and then they made mugs. Where's Hunter? And then they showed up at my door. I didn't have any security. I didn't have anybody. I can't afford uh that in in my life particularly at that time. and they literally showed up on my door with with bullhorns and mega hats and uh on the the direct and the the way that they got there is the New York Post published on the front page on its cover an aerial view of my home with the address and then in the thing said and you can if you stand here at this uh you know on this part of the street you can see and there are floor to ceiling windows and you know and so they they showed up. Wow. >> And Melissa was what, 6 months pregnant at the time, you know, she got in the car because she was alone at the time and and and and sped off and they followed her and they ran her off the road. You know, she panicked and then, you know, she got and they did it again and they surrounded her and that's new, man. >> That is new. And and like similarly to you is it like before I sat down I heard where you live, what your the level of security that you have or didn't have and you know what your perimeter of your property is like. How the hell do I know that? And how is that even remotely safe? How? because you have people who now you're um you basically spoke your truth and they decided that you cannot exist and so therefore I don't know what's going to happen but for some reason I think it's appropriate for me to say uh tell you what what Candace's address is >> who lives there and the level of security she >> has doing that was one of the most it was so obvious what he was doing >> my dad said to me is I have to stop saying the f word [laughter] >> but it was no like seriously that to me was like it's it's a declaration of war. Like they know I homeschool my kids. They know and he's describing the security apparatus and he's doing it in this rant trying to be impassionate about the fact that I don't support Israel or I don't support whatever his whatever his motivation was. >> There was zero reason that you would be describing the perimeter of my house outside of wanting someone to get harmed. And like I first first of all like I'm not like Tucker Carlson and I save people all the time. That's why I get so worried because when Tucker gets accosted in public, he just has this like total happy warrior demeanor. I will claw someone's eyes out for my kids. Like I like I am not the property to try. We will shoot you. Like I I will shoot you and I will kill you and I will happily go to prison before you have one opportunity to even make me I'm not even going to think about whether you're going to hurt my kids. >> You sound exactly like >> and that's just that's me. That's just me. And and I've said it over and over on my podcast. I will I will smile in my mugsh shot, okay? Because I did the right thing and I have no qualms about that. So when he did that, I I was like, "Okay, this little beanie boy. Okay, little beanie boy. I see exactly what you're doing. The whole world sees what you're doing and you are doing something that you because you want my children to get harmed." And then if something happens to them, you're going to go, "Well, I don't know how that happened." As I was describing the perimeter of her home and talking about what her security is, um, which was inaccurate, >> Ken, but that's but that's what like what are we even talking about? That's exactly why they do it >> is that even if the chance is this small >> the reason that they do it is exactly that is to is to make you really afraid not for yourself for your four kids. >> Mhm. >> For your family, for the people that work around you. It's like I and by the way I'll tell you is that I have the same approach that I think Tucker has to it which is then I don't know it is which is basically like I can handle like I can diffuse the situation I can do it Melissa you will kill you. Yeah, I'll kill you and I'll ask questions later. >> And she did exactly the same. And I you know what really worries me is that is that is all of a sudden we're we're we're all talking about violence. >> Mhm. >> Like you're talking about violence. Violence is defense, but now you're talking about the violence. And then they kind of like go, "Oh, you're gaslighting us. This is [ __ ] You don't you you're fine. You really rich and you this and that. you can take care of yourself. It's like [ __ ] >> Did you see what just happened to my best friend? >> Yeah. Look, I mean, we just watched Charlie get and he had a full security apparatus. >> We still don't know what happened to Charlie Kirk. Um there's zero interest. That's another thing that just completely for me was like done with Trump whatso like I mean there's there's just no way for someone who came from the inside and watched the work that Charlie did to get these people elected. Don Jr. was like a brother to Charlie. Literally like a brother to him. Um, and to see the Trump brothers, to see Donald Trump himself, Cash Patel, who Charlie pushed for him to lead the FBI, had him on his podcast, JD Vance, like, you know, came out of nowhere, Charlie was like not sleeping to make that happen. And to see all of these people have zero interest in the obvious holes in the story, even if ultimately the holes get filled and there's a picture that makes sense, which I put that at a 0% chance. But let's just, you know, the fact that they have zero interest and they're just accepting the narrative. Like what this has done to me, and I've said this, I'm just done with politics. I'm just done with politics because I can't even begin to comprehend it. And again, that element of gaslighting that's happening here where they're pretending that the people who are noticing that none of this is making sense are the crazy ones. And everyone else who's like, "No, turn the chapter a week later, it's all solved." Uh, and this is how it went down and and none of it makes sense, but just accept this slop. It It is the most infuriating thing. And it's it's just fully removed the scales in my eyes. And I've stopped with this left versus right, Democrat versus Republic. I'm like, this is sheer evil versus good. [laughter] Like this is like sheer evil. >> By the way, for real. Exactly. >> Like >> Exactly. It It is It is good versus evil. >> Yeah. >> It the they they have torn the mask off of this. I said to you before is that I pray to God that by the end of this that you you think of me as a friend because if anything ever happened to me, I want you you and Melissa team up. [laughter] You f like oh my god. >> The bottom of it. not happening with Charlie Kirk. And the criticism of you for asking the questions for someone who was like a brother to you, it's like what the f were you talking about. That's the how dare you coming from someone who you've attacked and you've and and politically you've you know had all of your criticism which I have no problem with and we disagree on so many things. But I listen to you and I go, "Right on." Like Epstein, like you want to figure out why they don't want to let the the the release all the Epstein files, all you got to do is literally look at a picture of Trump standing on at his stage at his inauguration and look behind him. >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's like every single person. >> He's protecting his donors without question. >> I mean, it's crazy like Paulo and Poli and this and that and the other thing and all of these things. It's like, okay. And by the way, I like anyway, my point is is that yeah, is like when is it when are people going to kind of wake up to the fact and it's not left or right. This is a really really horrible group of people that are pulling strings >> that um uh that impact us all and they make us think that because you and I disagree on um you know the the graduated tax rate or some social issue is that we are sworn enemies. Mhm. >> Not [clears throat] I mean not just you know like sworn enemies that I deserve violence >> and I and I could see them and it does seem like both sides have woken up without question. My audience is now split and I still say what I believe. I haven't changed my position on abortion. I'm Catholic. I have you know there's nothing that has changed. I think they're just hearing me for the first time. And I I do think there was something about the Charlie Kirk assassination that everyone just sort of looked up you know we just sort of all looked up at the machine and was like wait a second what is this? because they expected Trump to be ride or die. They expected cash. I mean, wow, this is going to be solved in in the clearest way possible because the entire political apparatus that has the power in the Department of Justice is in the hands of Charlie Kirk's friends. Like, that was how I felt, right? This is it. No, whoever did this is never going to get away with it because these are Charlie's friends. And what did we get? >> Friends, they're the people that Charlie Kirk made. >> Charlie Kirk made these people. That's exactly right. Led a youth revolution to to get these people elected in power. He was ride or die to >> the level of disloyalty >> or fear. I don't know what it is. >> Disloyalty >> is >> disloyalty maybe guided by fear. But it's loyalty. It's disturbing. And I I I cannot I can not forgive Trump, the Trump family. Uh what they have done or what they have not done for Charlie. >> Can I keep one of these? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I'm full on. I'm like, call me a conspir. I'm like you where I'm like, oh that what is the shame tactic of the day? You're calling me a conspiracy? Great. I mean, like, you'd be a fool to believe the stuff that they're telling us today, the stories they're telling us. Um, I mean, it's it it is something that is just so disturbing. And I think that the Charlie assassination has just so crazy like cuz he was so Republican, conservative, but I think it's brought people together in a productive way. Yeah. Um >> I look what I'm I'm I'm here and you're here and the um I I really think that we're not unique, you know? I think very very kind of emblematic is that like I'm like let's put the past, you know, not behind us. Like I'll explain anything you want. I'll talk about anything that you want to talk about that you still have questions about or that anybody is. But like this isn't right. this what we're witnessing right now is not right. >> The level of corruption, the obuscation, the um I mean whether it's Butler or Charlie or no these things that that >> it's just not right. And I mean it's so glaringly not right. It's almost as if they're just saying >> f you. >> They don't they're not even trying. We like we don't even get good scops anymore. And that's what I keep saying. I'm like, it's so disrespectful >> that we're not even getting good good signups anymore. Like, we're we're supposed to believe he survived four, what are we at? Four assassination attempts. The first president that's ever survived four assassination attempts. They quietly they lie to us about things. They make a big deal and then they make it want to, you know, it's going to go away. They're going to keep pretending and telling us that this is a totally normal grieving widow. Okay, no one's buying that. Like that something's just not right here. everyone can see that this is not how you would react to your husband being shot and uh this sort of just I'm fine and I like two weeks later I fully accept a narrative. I have no interest in anything else. It's over. Let's let's close it. I forgive him. Let's move on. You're you're asking us to abandon our common sense and our humanity is what you're asking us to do. And they're that kind of seems like where we're at. Like they're insisting on this and I'm going where is this going to go? Because we're not doing the thing they want us to do. like they just constantly giving us slop all the time. I mean, even the recent White House correspondents dinner. There was so much theater to it after so much theater and now it's kind of, okay, Secret Service maybe shot each other and we're just going to kind of quietly move on. But Trump needs a ballroom. Like that. That's a normal reaction. Hey, there's a shooting duck. Hey, we better get that ballroom. >> By the way, it's going to cost a billion dollars now. And by the way, it's not from donors. And by the way, we're going to do it. Like it's just like it's just a the constant like talk about gaslighting. It's it's been this has been just this and he we're not even are we even a year into Trump's second term. We're a little over a year. >> A little over a year and a second. And I don't think there's just been I'm like, how are we going to deal with four years of just being gaslit every 5 seconds and told that MAGA, literally MAGA is not MAGA anymore. And what was actually never Trump, which was actually pro-Hillary Clinton if you think about it, that's now MAGA. It's literally people who have been against Trump the entire time who are lecturing us about this stuff like the Mark Leven and uh the Ben Shapiro and like we're MAGA and the Laura Loomers. Like you know, we're MAGA now. Okay, great. then I'm not MAGA. Like I am I've never agreed with these people. I am opposed to these people's ideas. Um I am opposed to unleashing an actual lunatic who has uh had to be Baker acted and put on psych 5150 holds by her own parents who fear her. I'm I'm opposed to that actually being unleashed upon the population. >> Melissa always she's at 5150. I had some sheep that person's going to get 5150. What are you talking about? What's 5150? and you're telling us this is NAGA now. Like this is what we do. And >> so it's been a it's a it's been a challenging time because you do have to have like the humility to admit >> that I'm quite embarrassed about it. >> The president of the United States of America has posted images of himself as a king I think half a dozen times now. >> Yeah. like when are we when when are people going to wake up and go okay like if that's what you want and by the way if that's what you want then you know what I know that there is a that there is a the vast majority of Americans but a but some that are really going to really really have a problem. >> Yeah. >> Really have a problem. God forbid. And this whole thing is is that I we we all need allies now because they do have an enormous amount of power. You know, one of the things that I always think about is is that it's so easy to silence people, but it would be particularly easy for instance to go like if if if some like the whole cocaine in the White House thing and by the way I look at the your image is that like I you can believe whatever you want to believe, but I know my truth and that's all I can do. >> And you'd preferred crack anyways? >> 100%. [laughter] Okay. And I would not only I would not have I would not have forgotten it in a cubby. >> Not if you're crawling on the >> to go into the situation room, which I've never been in before. Okay. [laughter] Exactly. I mean, Jesus Christ. Anyway, but my point is is that what if they um you know, what if I'm flying back to LA and you know or and I go through security and they find drugs in my bag? Who would believe me that I'm clean and sober? Who would possibly believe me? >> No one. >> No one. No one. And I could take drug tests and I could prove it and I could, you know, I mean, literally, I I pack my bag in front of a witness everywhere I go. So that at least I would be able to say that. Here's the crazy part is the idea that I would think that there is a government in power capable of doing that says everything anyone needs to know >> about where we are. >> Yeah. The idea that you feel unsafe in the United States of America because you disagree with the current administration on a issue that 70% of Americans agree with you on. >> Mhm. >> Like you know I think we all can agree is that we need to stop the wholesale murder of a population in Gaza. Mhm. >> I, you know, whatever you think about my father's um uh uh um policy as it relates I I always say to people, do you know one thing he didn't do? >> He didn't greenlight a um uh to turn Gaza into a Trump golf course. Um you know, with the major D being Jared Kushner with $4 billion in Saudi money, >> it's despicable. >> Despicable. >> It's just like they did the deal before. I mean, when he posted that, I'll never forget that posted the Trump like here's what Gaza could be and like I could have my name in a building and I was like, >> but literally that's what they're doing. >> This is dead children. Like you're literally saying this is all going to be fine because we're going to get up a Trump resort or something. Positively despicable. I mean, just positively despicable, tasteless, indefensible, >> and it's not. It wasn't a joke. And that is the deal. >> And that's what they're doing. Literally doing. And by the way, they're doing it out in the open. I mean, it's not as if they're hiding it in any way. >> I mean, they are making deals as they go through, you know, like I always say to people, it's like, you had such a problem with me. I didn't do any business. I'll take the paintings. >> I didn't do a single business. I, you know, every single person that bought a painting from me um during the time my dad was there in the in in office, I had two shows and probably sold a a total of 20 paintings and 13 of them to my best friend, [laughter] you know, and that's it. That's it. And you had a problem. Not you. Well, you too, but they had a problem with me as being this emblematic emblem of corruption. These guys, okay, Don Jr. got the single largest loan guarantee from the Department of Defense ever handed out of over $600 million for an energy company, a fusion energy company, of which he has zero zero experience in. They have gotten Jared Kushner who's never run a private equity fund has now a $4 billion private equity fund with 80% of the money coming from the Middle East of which he continues to raise as he is the ambassador at large on behalf of the Trump administration not as a political appointee but simply as a son-in-law of the president >> to come to a peace deal of a war in Iran that they started that has cost the economy billions and billions of dollars for before nobody wanted that. Every president before them, before him was pressured by the Israelis to get into and every single one, regardless of what you think of them, from George, from Jimmy Carter through President Reagan through both of the Bushes through Clinton through my dad said, "You're out of your minds and here's the reason why. This is what's going to happen." >> So who benefits right now? You know who benefits? The people that are making trades of billions of dollars on market manipulation that occurred and we all know and it's literally out in the open. But who's going to who's going to you know who's >> you will not get a disagreement out of me. Like I am so far off the Trump train he's posting. >> No, by the way, and I'm not even saying it's embarrassing, but it is embarrassing. It is embarrassing because we got behind him as the answer to corruption. We thought he was going to be this outsider. You know, he's going to go to DC. he's going to drain the swamp and then he became the Lochness monster, you know, and so it's like I don't know what it is about that swamp, but you get swimming in it and it's like people do this and yes, it has been for Israel. Not to say that Trump wasn't pro-Israel. Most presidents actually are pro-Israel when they go in there and if they go anti-Israel, they kind of end up dead. Um, but it's uh or they you sort of get kicked out if you want to talk about Nixon and the scandal of Watergate, which I've revisited and did think that that had a lot more to do with his shifting viewpoints, but uh that wasn't the issue. like I was pro- Israel generally speaking and not very educated about the topic. It it's this level of corruption that you're talking about. Uh when you are willing to let real Americans be harmed, their day-to-day lives be harmed. They're suffering at the gas pump. The groceries are expensive. All at the so that you could further enrich how much more money does Trump family need? I just like literally how much more money do you need like that you're going to allow this to happen? Don't don't you just want to have now the legacy of being a good president? I mean this is >> Yeah. I was saying to you about like the cryptocurrency thing. I think there's incredible promise in cryptocurrency. I believe in the you know meme token. I want to I I'll do something one day to create a community and there's there's really good reasons to do it. There's really interesting ways and I know disagree. I just happen to be kind of like a >> crypto guy >> crypto I mean just because of my I think incredible freedom in world in which we've been controlled by banks. So if you have the same problem that I have with big pharma banks and and and the Fed and these like >> like where does money come from kind of thing is that like I truly believe in in what uh Satashi uh you know kind of the manifesto of of Bitcoin. But that's just me regardless. >> My point is is that they had such an opportunity. They >> had such an opportunity. I'll give you this. I want you a little the the the conspiracy. Go look up Gal Loft and Alexander Smeirnoff. They're the two principal individuals that made the only claim that people hung their hat in in Congress and elsewhere as it relates to my dad and corruption, bribery, and stuff like that. One of them is a uh fugitive from justice wanted by Interpol in the United States government, Gal Loft, who was a former IDF uh uh officer who is believed to be uh living in uh in Israel as a fugitive, which the Israelis will not help us uh locate. And the other one is Alexander Smrnov, who is a known Israeli intelligence agent. Those are the two people who was in a prison in the United States was so serving six years and they can't find him. Bure prison can't find him in his prison in the prison. He is on furlow but no one knows where he's been furled to within the only passport that he has is an Israeli passport. There are forces that I used to take, oh this is [ __ ] Have you ever read um uh The Devil's Chess Board? >> Yes. I I I Allan Dallas looking into the CIA. I read this book Chaos that then led me to the Devil's Chess board. It's actually on our list for books to read for the book club. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It'll knock you. Chaos CIA the man stuff. That was the one that knocked me and I was like, "What the heck is our government? What is going on?" chessboard and you realize the that >> anyway >> what the CIA is capable of and you think it's all a conspiracy and I think that's what they're fearful of is that people will have awakened to that and so when they're kind of trying to throw red meat now what you see them doing the left the right it's just not landing the same anymore because we just realized that there is a chess board >> that's why I have in terms of the left like you think I'm going to defend the um uh the the DC elite of the of the left they They crushed my dad. They when when when they saw their chance, they did everything in their power to um uh to to push push him out. You know why? Because he was never part of that club. He was never part of the Epstein class. He lived in Delaware. Everybody that think you can think whatever you want about my dad is that literally my dad never bought a stock or a bond because he made a commitment in 1972 when he was 30 years old after Watergate never to own a stock or a bond. And he did. My dad was the poorest person ever to enter the presidency. And the poorest person, not poorest, I mean, he had money. He wrote and written a book and he' done well, but he had the the least amount of wealth entering the presidency in in modern years in since 1900 than anybody. And when he was in the United States Senate, he was not only the the poorest man in the Senate, not poor again, he made over $170,000 in average over the course of 45 years. But of not just the Senate, but 535 members of Congress, he was never a part of that club. And and that's what I wish like you knew. That's what I wish they knew. And I am not here in any way to defend, you know, the the, you know, the DC elites of my own party. I think that they're just as complicit in all this [ __ ] >> No, without question. Like the Nancy Pelosis. What's your um what's your opinion on Camala then? >> Did you like her? >> Look, I like you didn't definitely >> No, you know what? I did and I I don't want to say anything. I don't I didn't know the vice president that well, >> okay? you know, I mean, I and and she was always nice to me personally. And so that was my, you know, you know, uh, but I didn't have the other thing that people think that I was like living at the White House. I I literally didn't leave my home because it was really hard to to leave. I stayed, you know, in the hill that I lived on until the fires came. Um, uh, you know, that's that's where I was. I was with Bo and Melissa and um trying to make it through and not trying to make it through thriving making it through what would otherwise have seemed like a um a horrible horrible life from any outsers's perspective. So I'm not judging the question, but I don't want to [ __ ] on the the vice president because I have no reason to necessarily >> She did nothing personal to you. She was nice to you. >> Never did anything personal to me. I think that she is uh you know so >> kind of machine stuff. >> I Yeah, exactly. You know, and I don't in terms of all of that stuff I'm uh you know I think tough enough to realize that that you know that's part of like when you get to politics at that level I people kind of uh I think have this misperception of me is that for 50 years I was a crack addict and I was that picture you know. I mean, I went to Yellow Law School, you know, I served in the Clinton administration. I was a chairman of the board of the US UN World Food Program, which is the largest humanitarian organization in the world. I served on 16 boards before I ever joined the board of Burisma or anything. Um, I taught at Georgetown for I was, you know, taught at the mast's program of the school for Service for 4 years. >> I actually didn't know that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And >> that was something that surprised me, too. Not to be rude, but I I thought you were dumb. >> Yeah. because I don't know maybe because Megan McCain was on the view for too long or something and I was like here we go just like rich political kids like I mean she is just she's just so dumb and and yet she's just always here like they're just giving her stuff and so I think there's also that perception where it's their rich kids don't work aren't smart and so I was kind of expecting you to be sort of a Megan McCain and then when I watched it I was like oh wait he actually has he has brain cells which is by the way remarkable that you didn't kill them all off when you were on >> crack I told you before I think they got pickled all the uh all the vodka >> [laughter] >> That's why I was like, "This is interesting. He's not a total idiot." >> Uh, so there is there are the stereotypes of rich kids who just keep getting handed all of these awards in life. >> I say to everybody is that if there's any ever anybody in the history of America that that benefits from uh low expectations, it's me. [laughter] Is that People are like, "Oh my god." Like, you aren't you're not a complete [ __ ] You didn't you haven't pulled out your crackpipe yet, which is really crazy. But that gives you an idea, by the way, >> of the level to which I was muted because uh they didn't want it. And you know, you you have to subvert yourself to a machine to a certain degree. And like it it wasn't up to me if I wanted to go out and like rail at the machine or rail at you know, go on and and and argue with Jake Tapper, you know, who would harm your dad. >> Yeah. because it then then I become even more of the story. But you give up your voice in that way and it's incredibly emasculating and particularly when the the um the portrait that is being painted of you as a um a near dwell that never did anything in their life. Like like you want to talk about experience, go look at my goddamn resume. I have 10 times more experience in 10 times more things. And I know I am 10 times more well read than either one of the Trump boys, regardless of what you think about them. Now, you know what I can't do is that I'm not a great shot, you know, and um and I don't know anything about real estate. >> Mhm. >> And I don't know anything about making money, and that's why I'm about, you know, a few million dollars in in debt. And I and I don't I I I and I need to change that one around in some way at the age of 56. But the portrait that was painted on me has given me this incredible gift [laughter] that said I can walk into your house into your studio and I guarantee that people afterwards are going to go I still think he's but my god he's not you know what like can you believe it he didn't go do lines in the bathroom. Well, I I was that was my reaction when I watched Andrew Callin. I was like, "Wow, he's actually thought through his addiction. He's talking about the ritual it like this guy's not an idiot." And I you're right. I guess you do benefit from having exceedingly low expectations, but it was sort of like you said the first time you spoke. And of course, you did sort of have to be quiet because otherwise you would have definitely hurt your father and there there's a machine that's kind of bigger than you that you have to submit. >> The rage was there. You could tell the the that I I even went back. My dad just said, "Honey, that was that was really beautiful parts of it. you have to use it the f word that much [laughter] like coming from you which the the thing about my dad though is he uh he um at least from the different he would he never talked to us that way ever like around around my mom or you know but anyway so I'm trying to curb the [clears throat] f- word for for my mom and dad >> all right you guys summertime Time expenses in 2026 are stacking up faster than ever, leaving Americans feeling like the only option is swiping their credit cards. This keeps you trapped in a cycle of high interest debt. American Financing has a way out. This is not about shortcuts. It's a real strategic plan to reset your finances and reclaim your budget. At American Financing, they specialize in building plans tailored specifically for your goals. They look at your current debt and show you exactly how your home's equity can work smarter for you. 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Yeah, you know, I it's a uh I don't know uh for certain whether the the things that I have which I believe are memories or memory um because it would be very rare uh at that age I I I have distinct memories of my my mom carrying us around in picnic basket and um and I even have a uh a distin think memory of the car, not the accident, but of of the car. Um, but I don't know if it's because I've been, you know, steeped in stories, you know, the beautiful part like everything. There's a Have you ever read any of the um the Gnostic Gospels? you know, the um you really should because I know you're >> uh I I've listened to you talk about your Catholicism and your faith and >> and I'm like a toddler in the faith and there's so much is like so rich. >> So, it's really cool. There's there the one of the things that I uh I've always been a student of because when I went first went to Georgetown, the two closest people after I graduate priests. One was named Ted Deiaak and another one was Bill Watson. And both Father Watson and Father Dezak led me into this idea of service. Known was the I started a thing called the Jesuit International Volunteers uh with Father Watson. I mean, excuse me, Father Diaak. And then I went to the to the JBC because of Father Watson. Um which is like domestic Peace Corp, you know. And I did that for a year. And then when I opened up my own law firm, my all my clients were um Jesuit universities because I was friends with presidents of universities that were just like five or six years older than than me, you know, that were now becoming presidents of St. shows and Granton and Lyola and all these Jesuit universities, Detroit Mercy and um but anyway, the Gnostic Gospels, the Gnostic Gospels were um uh they were found uh in Naji and they they were written in the uh the period between uh Christ's death and the first two centuries and there's the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Philip and Constantine. And now I'm going to this boring hell. Oh, I'm very interested. >> Constantine um uh Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Yep. And >> but what he did when really what it was about was not a um uh not a true transformation of faith. It was a way to consolidate power. >> So he made the the Christian um uh bishops who were you know two 200 years into the the very very early church. He made the Christian bishops his lieutenants and enforcers as it related to um uh the religion so that he can control the more radical elements of it. And so that is when they came to an adoption of just for gospel. >> Mhm. >> And um there's all of these other writings that became uh that you could get exccommunicated for um that is really beautiful really beautiful um portraits of like the gospel of Mary Magdalene >> and Jesus's relationship with Mary Magdalene. But anyway, in the it's not a gospel, but it is one of the texts. I think it's called uh the acts of John, there is a thing that Christ says, and he says you, I'm paraphrasing, you must learn to suffer as I do in order be able not to suffer. And that is the greatest lesson of everything is not having gratitude for all the good things in my life for having immense gratitude for all of my life. Like I wouldn't be here, we couldn't have this honest conversation. I couldn't get to know you as a human being if every single thing didn't occur >> behind it. I would not feel this this gift of being alive on a daily basis the way that I do if I hadn't overcome committing suicide dozens of times in motel rooms in places that I can never afford to be found dead, you know. And it's that piece of life that like the only way I got it is when they just tore off all my clothes, tart and feathered me and put me in the center of town and said, "Look at him." And I and I and I survived. When you survive that, you kind of go, "What am I going to do with my life?" Well, the number one thing I want to do with my life is number one, take care of me. >> Yeah. >> I feel like I I have to say like I'm really sorry that I contributed to that. Like I just feel really shitty. Like I feel guilty because like hearing you talk about I mean basically having the worst moments of your life. Like I always speak about on my show how a lot of these kids growing up aren't going to even know what it was like before social media where you could just make a mistake and like have that be over and you got to grow up and now it's like they're digging and they're finding people's tweets from when they're 17. They're an idiot. they wrote the N word once and they like want to hang them when they're 40 and um I just I just saw you as a caricature and it was it was definitely like I said like feeling gaslit by the political machine convinced that it was just the left that partic took in this political machine and I just like really want to say like genuinely like I'm so sorry that I just didn't even consider he's a crackhead and like you know like that's actually a very relatable thing and he shouldn't be you know, like to have that is just unbelievable to consider every worst thing you ever >> I am uh like I told you before we started, I cry very easily. >> But I do I just feel like I my it's not who I want to be and I think I've I've come a long way from that in general. Um and like but I did partake in just the inhumity of just look at this guy at the worst moment of his life like with prostitutes, he's on crack, he's on drugs and we should make fun of him because it makes us feel good. um or it makes us feel like we're somehow beating the machine and that it was I think a really warped viewpoint and hearing you speak about it today I'm just like wow is so gross that I partic >> you have so much and I mean this in a good way so much power >> because I think that the your audience absolutely trust you and the reason that they trust you is because you've shown an enormous amount of courage of speaking your mind, particularly as it related to someone that you loved like a brother and everything that has transpired since then, which is a immediate rejection of power and immediate rejection of and knowing that it you were just going to get this the [ __ ] beat out of you. And for you to say that to me, I truly mean it just from a purely selfish point of view. It means the world. >> Um, and that and I and I didn't I truly didn't come here for that. I came here because you know what? >> I ask forgiveness every day um without any expectation that I will be forgiven. But I know the people that I hurt and you know and I still do and and I'm not even remotely perfect and I'm and I still screw up and you know and but God if like if we could have this conversation and genuinely authentically believe that like I think just opens the door for and a few other people without being, you know, with with all humility like maybe, you know, maybe a few other people. >> And there is a freedom in it, too. Like there's a freedom that your worst moments have just like, >> yeah, >> there's nothing else. >> What are you going to say? You know what I mean? Like >> you've got me butt naked up with with a crackpipe. So, I mean, there's I survived it and so you have it and >> it allows you to kind of return to who you are cuz it's, you know, addiction is >> Yeah. >> I wouldn't wish it. I always say like, you know, people have growing up and seeing what it's done to families and um seeing a lot of stuff when I was younger like really made me like again I'm like wow I can't even imagine. >> Imagine if you could talk about it. Imagine if you could have openly talked about it and the person that you were confronting or doing is like were able to say like like this is you know like we got to do something about this. Come on everybody, let's do something about it. I want to start an aftercare program for people for free because the biggest thing that happens is people go to detox and they go to recovery center um or rehab and they get out after 30 days and they got nowhere to go. And so one of the things that I'm trying to do is start a a free aftercare program. And there's a couple. There's one in Kentucky that is a really beautiful model. But if I could do that, you know, I'm I work with a with a um with an organization called uh Basta Universal. Um I'm the development director there and they do tenants rights and um and uh and homeless prevention. Like I I know what we all can agree on. We can all agree on that, you know, uh that people can't afford to pay their rent and need to be able to figure out a way to stay um stay in their houses before it becomes a mother with three kids are homeless. >> We know where that leads. >> But these kinds of things is what I want to use what I'm doing. What like I want like I want to do that. I also want to make a living. >> I also want to do I also want to be able to pay my debt. I also want to be able to do the things that you know I have you know you know I also still want to make art you know uh you know I I started um finally and like you know what I'm going to put all my art on my [clears throat] website and people can come look at it if they want to buy it they can buy it and like >> because I don't really believe art becomes art until you share it with somebody um I mean like until there's an observer of it I can you know I can sit in my my my studio which is my garage. [laughter] >> But I want to do all of those things and I want to be able to do it and I want to be able to talk to you. You know what I mean? I want to be able to talk to the people. I want to talk to like that family necessary conversation. >> And say to the mom like the stories your daughter tells you about the way that you that you adopted animals. It really moves me. >> The fact that you think I'm the spawn of the devil. I I we maybe have a discussion about it, you know. >> Yeah, it's a caricature and I have and I have a caricature of me that's been built up for years. So, I should have been more empathetic to it, honestly. But it's when you're in it, you kind of don't really know that you're in it, I think. >> Well, not only in it is that you're in it to win it >> when everything is put in a political lens and and life or death. And you know, if we lose this election, you know, this is over and he's, you know, now I will tell you this is that we've never had somebody that is, you know, um, you know, staying longer than they're supposed to. But regardless is that I think that that we all have a tendency to um to look at the time that we live in and say that it's worse than ever. [clears throat] >> Absolutely worse. And the fact of the matter is is if like you if you you know your history is that like this is a cycle. Um uh there will always be really bad people. We will always be disappointed um at in the end with leadership. We will always have corruption. We it doesn't mean that we need to accept it. It doesn't mean that we don't need to fight against it. Doesn't mean that sometimes really good people make the wrong choice. Um uh but what it does mean is that I have absolute hope. I really truly still believe in America even with all of the incon the the all of its uh faults. I mean even after reading the devil chess port like you know you read that and you go like and that's not about Democrats and that's not about Republicans. And if you go back and you go back to reconstruction, you go back to Andrew Johnson and you go back to like the um uh you know the fact that the United States of America has not had it was not has not been truly the United States of America until you know 1964 at best and this whole thing. But I still really believe in the the illusion. And the thing that makes me so mad is they have completely torn away that illusion. And people feel hopeless. They feel like there's no chance of changing it. Okay, they gave this guy the range to do it and he was the one who's going to blow everything up and make it better for everybody. And they're kind of like, wait a second, what happened to Charlie? Wait a second. Why are we at war again? >> Yeah. >> You know, >> I think this is actually the most important question and I I will make this my final question I want to ask you, but um I'm really interested about your faith life. >> You're Catholic. You're raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school and like is you're talking to me about the Gnostic Gospels. >> Let's you and I go see the Pope together. >> Love to do that. >> Seriously, >> I think he's a little mad at America right now. No, but you and I he's been I was tweeted the same day as the Pope, by the way, by Trump when he said bad things about me. >> For real. Let's go to the Vatican. >> I would love to. >> The coolest place in the world. I love >> I just got back from Italy. I was there uh two weeks ago. Yeah. I I did my confirmation. >> Well Oh, you did? >> I did. I was It was just the most beautiful. >> Oh, that's so cool. >> Unbelievable. It was literally the same day that Trump posted the time most vile person of the year. So I felt like there was even in that there was something divine because it was like looking at fake power and then the real power of like having you know a cardinal getting confirmed being in Italy the the deep history like what outlasts that like there was something so fickle about it like posting this photo of me when I was sick. Okay great. Um >> wait hold on. >> Talk about humiliating people for sport. >> Somebody literally sent this to me right before I came into you. They knew that I was going to talk to you and I promise you I did not plan to do this. >> No. You're so fine. It was a a prayer. If you are wise and understand God's ways, prove it by living an honor honorable life, do good works with the humility that comes from wisdom. But if you are bitterly jealous and there is selfish ambition in your heart, don't cover up the truth with boasting and lying. For jealousy and selfishness are not God's kind of wisdom. Such things are earthly, unspiritual, and demonic. For wherever there is jealousy and selfish ambition, there you will find The whole first piece of that when you were just talking is what's my faith? If you are wise and understand God's ways, prove it by living an honorable life. And the thing that I recognized is that well for Mother Teresa, I don't go to mass as much as I used to. Grew up going to mass every Sunday. I never would miss a mass. You know, I I went to Georgetown. I would Catholic. But what I realized is that my real faith is in that belief is that just do the next right thing. That's it. whether it's the golden rule and that doesn't mean you have to be weak in your empathy but always be uh compassionate. I believe in the perennial philosophy I believe that same exact message from the aunnishads to uh the the gospels of Jesus Christ are all at base in terms of the red letter words of each of them are saying the same thing. love your neighbor like you would want to be loved. And it's the hardest thing in the world to do. So hard. But that's my faith. And and I think that there are certain people that arrive at certain times that are messengers of that. And uh like for instance, I certainly don't agree with the Catholic Church on a lot of stuff. I certainly um have a uh but I tell you what, I really am so proud of Pope Francis and now Pope Leo in terms of just the notion of social justice. Um and uh and I I think that there can be a practical um application of that in terms of our our leadership. I really do. I think that that um that faith that is used as as a cudgel is really really dangerous. I think that um uh I I know a lot of people that I personally love and and very close to that are part of an evangelical church, particularly in the in the African-American community, but that are um uh horrified by the complicity of the of the of the im of a certain section of the evangelical church and what's happening in the world today. M so to me my faith is very personal rooted in in in uh it's rooted in Catholicism uh and it's rooted in uh the society of Jesus, the Jesuit church in particular, which I you know they used to always call the black pope until we finally got a Jesuit pope but you know and with the with eyes wide open too that um the church is as an institution is incredibly flawed and had And but it um but it uh it's given me an enormous sense of of uh of community and and belonging just from a cultural perspective. >> Well, what I'm going to say is I really think you should go to confession. >> Yeah, >> you should do that. >> Oh, I don't worry. I've been to confession. >> Yeah, go to confession. Get, you know, and Yeah. And and just, you know, just >> 100%. Yeah, don't worry. >> Go back to the root. go back to the root and um you know there's so much there and it's like you're not you know you're just not enough your brain's not enough I mean hearing you describe that I can do this that there is just something about for me like the the submission that just every mass and just remembering like >> the beautiful thing >> beautiful thing is this >> the beautiful thing is that I have been going to confession for 6 years. Wow. Right here. That's me. You know, I I like that freedom. You know, what used like the only person that you could say this to, you know, and I'm not saying that there is not like like my impure thoughts that I'm, you know, that's between me and God. But I am saying is that that feeling of release that the confessional is there for is the feeling that when I was finally able to see beyond all of the noise that I received by just existing >> and getting up every day and looking turning over and seeing that my wife who saved me and uh and Bowie and and my dad as a dad, not as president, but just as a dad and my mom and my sister and my aunts and uncles and everybody else. And then the wider circle, my friend George, you know, my friend Franny, my, you know, I mean, my friend Bobby, I like people that have came into my life and they never left and despite it all and there was nothing in it for them but just grief and ridicule. Pretty cool. It's everything. >> Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, Hunter Biden never thought this conversation would happen and it just stranger things have happened and I'm just this has truly been one of the most powerful discussions that we've ever had. Um, and I think it's because of your journey. You know, you've lived through a lot. You lost your mother, your sister in a tragic accident. You lost your brother to cancer. Um, maybe for a while lost your dad to politics, political machine. Lost yourself to crack cocaine. Um, and somehow >> and I gained everything. Yeah. Gained it all back. >> Yeah, I really did. I can't tell you how much it means to me that uh that you would invite me here into your home to be able to have this discussion. Um and I I I really really mean it. I I'm I'm really really honored >> and I'm and I'm grateful that you took it and that you've accepted my apology cuz I I just feel really shitty about it. But um thanks. >> Guilt is good like we said earlier. >> Thank you so much for joining us. Amazing. [music]