DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 5, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00062293 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00062294 3 1 : This is special agent 2 The recorder is now on. My name is 3 . I'm a special agent with the 4 U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the 5 Inspector General, New York Field Office, and 6 these are my credentials. 7 : All right. 8 : This interview is with 9 Federal Bureau of Prisons employee, 10 . It is being conducted as part of an 11 official U.S. Department of Justice, Office of 12 the Inspector General investigation. Today is 13 August 5th, 2021, and the time is 6:19 p.m. 14 This interview is being conducted at the 15 Metropolitan Correctional Center, MCC, 150 Park 16 Row, New York City. Also present is DOJ/OIG . 17 Senior Special Agent, This 18 interview will be recorded by me, Special Agent 19 Could everyone please identify 20 themselves for the record, and spell your last 21 name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Special 22 Agent, 23 : My name is senior special 24 agent, , with the U.S. 25 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector EFTA00062295 4 1 General. . And these are 2 my credentials. 3 : Okay. And my name is 4 Senior Officer with the Federal Bureau 5 of Prisons. 6 7 too. 8 9 10 11 : And spell your last name, : Thank you, sir. : This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into the death of inmate, Jeffrey 12 Epstein, and the surrounding circumstances. 13 You are being asked to voluntarily provide 14 answers to our questions. Will you agree to a 15 voluntary interview with the DOJ/OIG? 16 : Yes. 17 : Please review DOJ/OIG form 18 I1I-226/2. It states, the United States 19 Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector 20 General, Warnings and Assurances to Employee 21 Requested to Provide Information on a Voluntary 22 Basis. "You are being asked to provide 23 information as part of an investigation being 24 conducted by the Office of the Inspector 25 General. This investigation is being conducted EFTA00062296 5 1 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 2 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 3 performance failure, security failure, and 4 false certifications. This is a voluntary 5 interview. Accordingly -- 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : -- you do not have to answer 8 any questions. No disciplinary action will be 9 taken against you if you choose not to answer 10 any questions. 11 : Uh-huh. 12 : Any statement you furnish may 13 be used as evidence in any future criminal 14 proceedings, or agency disciplinary 15 proceedings, or both." 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : The waiver states, "I 18 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 19 above and I am willing to make a statement and 20 answer questions. No promises or threats have 21 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 22 any kind has been used against me." Please 23 review the form. If you understand and agree, 24 sign your name, and print your name right below 25 it. EFTA00062297 6 1 : Here's a pen for you, if 2 you need one. 3 : So, do I need a union rep for 4 this? 5 : You could have one, if 6 you want, but like we mentioned, it's going to 7 be primarily to review the statement that you 8 already provided. 9 : Okay. 10 : And just to ask for some 11 clarification on some of the information that 12 you provided. 13 : Let's get this over with. 14 : Thank you for signing. This 15 is Agent I'm going to put the date as 16 August 5th, 2021. And the time is 6:22 p.m. 17 The place is MCC, New York. I'm signing at the 18 line for signature of the Office of the 19 Inspector General, Special Agent. Senior 20 Special Agent, would you sign it? 21 : This is Dennis 22 Matulewicz. I'm signing as the witness. 23 : Did you understand the form? 24 : Yes. 25 : You understand it's a EFTA00062298 7 1 voluntary interview -- 2 : Yeah. 3 : -- and you can end the 4 interview. 5 : Like -. 6 : You don't have to answer if 7 you don't want to. 8 : It's been like this every 9 time. 10 : Yes. 11 : Yeah. 12 : Before starting the 13 interview, I would like to place you under 14 oath. Can you please raise your right hand? 15 , do you swear to tell the truth and 16 nothing but the truth during this interview? 17 : Yes. 18 : Thank you. You can put your 19 hand down. , please let me know if 20 you do not understand any questions I ask, and 21 I will try and repeat it, or try to rephrase it 22 for you. 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Okay. I just wanted to show 25 the recorder is right there. EFTA00062299 8 1 2 : : Yup. What is your current home 3 address? 4 : My current home address would 5 be 6 : Where is that? 7 : In • 8 : What part? 9 • 10 • . Okay. 11 What is your date of birth? 12 • • • 13 What is your social security 14 number? 15 16 What is your current phone 17 number? 18 19 : What is your highest level of 20 education? 21 : High school with some college. 22 : What high school? 23 • 24 25 : Okay. And some college. Did EFTA00062300 9 1 2 3 4 you earn a degree? : No. I haven't finished that. I started in . And then, I did online. So, 5 and now, I'm working here. 6 : What major are you following? 7 : It was criminal justice. 8 : Were you planning - you were 9 going to finish that up, you said? 10 : I want to. 11 : Okay. Do you have any 12 military service? 13 : Yes. 14 : What branch? 15 : Army. 16 : Honorably discharged? 17 : Yes. 18 : When did you serve? 19 20 : And what grade were you when 21 you left? 22 : I was when I left. 23 : Okay. How long have you 24 served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 25 : Approximately six years now. EFTA00062301 10 1 2 date? 3 4 year. 5 6 7 What was your enter on duty : It can be a month and : Yeah. : Yeah. It was Yeah. Because I just made six years. 8 But I could get that, as -- 9 : Oh, that's easy. 10 -- a paper. 11 : It's fine. It's just a 12 know approximately when you started. 13 : Okay. And what did you prior 14 to working at the Metropolitan Correctional 15 Center? 16 : Army. Cleaning job. And car 17 dealerships. Until I landed this. 18 : Okay. And what year did you 19 start here, again? 20 21 22 23 • • : With the MCC? : Yes. : Have you been here at the MCC 24 the whole time? 25 : Yes. EFTA00062302 11 1 : Okay. What is your current 2 position with the MCC? 3 4 5 supervisor? 6 : Senior Officer. Who is your current : The Operations Lieutenant. 7 : What's the name? 8 : I think is the 9 Operations tonight. 10 : Operations Lieutenant. Do 11 you -? 12 : So, what do you mean by 13 that? It's every day, it's a different one, or 14 (Indiscernible *00:06:15)? 15 : It can very well be. So, the 16 lieutenants sometimes will work on a different 17 schedule than us. So, our schedule, like, a 18 schedule might not line up, like, tonight I'm 19 working, is working right now, but some - 20 like, yesterday, it was that was 21 working. 22 23 24 25 : Sure. : So, you know, you never know. : Okay. : Do you recall being EFTA00062303 12 1 previously interviewed by the FBI and OIG 2 regarding the Epstein investigation? 3 : Yes. 4 : I'm going to read you a 5 summary of the FBI's notes. The reason, these 6 notes belong to the FBI, but because the OIG 7 was present, we do have the notes along with 8 you, too. So, I'm going to read it -- 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : -- just tell me if there's 11 any corrections, or -- 12 13 14 : Okay. : -- anything that's missing. : Okay. 15 : I'm going to go right into 16 it. %•% informed that he has been a guard 17 with the Bureau" -. 18 : Yeah, yeah. Start from 19 the beginning. 20 : All right. So, "On September 21 25, 2019, at approximately 11:30 hours, the 22 undersigned, along with Special Agent 23 of the Office of the Inspector 24 General, Special Agent of the 25 Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Assistant EFTA00062304 13 1 United States Attorneys, for the southern 2 district of New York, , and 3 did interview Federal Bureau of 4 Prisons Correctional Guard, 5 Date of birth: , at the Southern 6 District of New York. This interview was 7 conducted in the presence of attorney. 8 informed that he has been a guard with 9 the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) for approximately 10 three years, all of which have been at the 11 Metropolitan Correctional Center." 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 : So, are you represented 14 in this matter? Are you represented in this 15 matter? 16 : Yeah. I guess so. I mean, I 17 had a lawyer -- 18 : Yeah. So, this is -- 19 : -- then. 20 : -- so, I do want to make 21 sure you understand this is a voluntary 22 interview. I know that you had an attorney 23 there. Are you good with us reviewing this 24 report, and -? 25 : Yeah. We could review it real EFTA00062305 14 1 quick, and just get this over with. 2 : Okay. 3 informed that he has 4 completed all the basic and required training 5 for being a guard in the BOP, and that he is 6 currently the senior officer in the Special 7 Housing Unit (SHU) ." 8 : Well, then I was. 9 : At that point. Okay. And 10 August 2019? 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Okay. Did you -? 13 : I wasn't the number one 14 officer that night, but -. 15 : Who was that number one 16 officer? 17 : I'm not even sure. 18 : Here's the daily 19 assignment roster from that night. 20 : Can you see it, by looking at 21 the -? We provided the MCC New York roster for 22 August 9th, 2019. 23 : Okay. He was on OT. Yeah. I 24 was the number three man. 25 : You were number three. Who EFTA00062306 15 1 was number one? Are you pointing to I. 2 3 : Yeah. 4 : Okay. 5 : Now, was - was 6 he non-custody, though? 7 : Yeah. 8 : So, being that he was 9 non-custody, would you actually be kind of the 10 OIC, being that you were, like, were you more 11 senior, or -? 12 : No. Actually, he has more 13 time in the Bureau than I do. 14 : He does? Okay. So, he 15 would be kind of responsible, at the time, 16 then? 17 : Yeah. Like, the way it's a 18 very tricky thing, the way that that works 19 here. 20 : Okay. 21 : You know, so, even if - 22 because he has more time than me, he's not - 23 because he started in custody - he has more 24 time than me, so I guess when they gave him the 25 overtime, they just, like, filled in the slot. EFTA00062307 16 1 : Okay. 2 : You know, I worked in there 3 every day, at that point in time, but what am I 4 supposed to tell the man, like, yo, you're 5 number one, what am I supposed to anybody? 6 : Sure. So, technically, 7 because he's number one, he was the OIC? 8 : Yeah. 9 : I gotcha. 10 : But, you know, that's -. 11 : Have you received MCC 12 refresher training? Annual refresher training? 13 : In SHU? 14 : In SHU, MCC training, and 15 also in SHU. 16 : Oh, like, oh, yeah, the annual 17 -- 18 19 20 21 : Yeah. : -- training or whatever? : Yeah. : Like, yeah. I just did that 22 on the computer this year. 23 24 25 : Ask him -- : Did you have -. : -- you know, you want to EFTA00062308 17 1 ask him about at the time. 2 : I'm going back. Yeah. In 3 2019, did you receive the annual MCC refresher 4 training? 5 : I believe so. I don't even 6 remember at this point, but I could look it up 7 in the computer. 8 : Everybody pretty much 9 does every year, though. Correct? 10 : Yeah. 11 : So, you (Indiscernible 12 *00:10:10) . 13 : But we're supposed to. But 14 sometimes, we'll be off. 15 : Sure. 16 : Do you recall, in 2019, if 17 you received the SHU training? 18 : Quarterly training. 19 : Quarterly training. 20 : In order to your -. You 21 were, like, assigned to the SHU. 22 : Yeah. At some point in time, 23 I probably did. What the dates are, I don't 24 remember. 25 : Okay. What about the suicide EFTA00062309 18 1 prevention training? In 2019. 2 3 of the SHU. 4 : That would have been part : Part of the SHU training. 5 : Yeah, as well as part of 6 7 : Yeah. 8 : -- the annual refresher 9 training. 10 : Yeah. I've seen that on the 11 computer before, too. Now, in 2019, I don't 12 remember. It was -- 13 : Sure. 14 : -- It was too --. 15 : Okay. We're going to go -- 16 : Maybe it was something that 17 was mentioned in the course, that -- 18 : Right. Yeah, yeah. 19 : -- it's 2021, right? 20 : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 21 : I understand. "When asked 22 about his activities for August 9th, 2019, 23 replied, `I assumed that's Epstein day.' 24 informed that, as far as he can recall, 25 he worked the 2:00 p.m. by 10:00 p.m. shift." EFTA00062310 19 1 : Yes. 2 : Can you let me know who else 3 worked with you during that shift? According to 4 when you - if you can refer to the roster. 5 : Okay. For 2:00 to 10:00, this 6 is me right here, coming in at 2:00 to 10:00. 7 And so, when I came in, some of these people 8 from the dayshift was still here. 9 : Can you - because we're 10 recording -- 11 : Oh. 12 : -- say the names that you're 13 pointing to. 14 : Okay. So, when I came in to 15 do SHU number three, you had 16 still working. And then, at 4:00, when 17 the shift change came on, this is when these 18 individuals came on, , Noel. Well, 19 Noel was already there, I believe. Because she 20 got stuck for overtime that night. But that's 21 when they came in. And then, nobody was 22 assigned to SHU four, after 4:00. 23 24 25 : So, you started 2:00 p.m.? : I started at 2:00 p.m. : And during the time that you EFTA00062311 20 1 started, - you said 2 , and was still there? 3 : Mm-hmm. 4 : And at 4:00 p.m., 5 came on? 6 left when I came in, 7 because he's 1400. His time ended. 8 : Okay. And then, at 4:00 9 p.m., came in? 10 : Yeah. He came up for 11 overtime. Noel came in for her regular shift. 12 : Okay. I'm going to continue 13 on. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : And I'm going to read that 16 line again. informed that, as far as he 17 can recall, he worked a 2:00 p.m. by 10:00 p.m. 18 shift, and did not see Epstein for the majority 19 of his shift because Epstein was with his 20 lawyers all day." 21 : Yes. 22 first recalls seeing 23 Epstein at approximately 8:00 p.m., and at that 24 time, informed BOP guard-" - 25 that's EFTA00062312 21 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : "That Epstein needed to make 3 a phone call. informed that he made the 4 -." 5 : That's backwards. 6 : Go ahead. Clarify that for 7 me. 8 : What happened was is, 9 informed me that he needed to make a phone 10 call. That's, like, because I can't make that 11 determination, and that's not an officer, 12 that's a unit manager. 13 : So, is a unit 14 manager? 15 : Yeah. 16 : Do you know his first name, 17 offhand? 18 : No. 19 : Okay. 20 21 22 23 24 25 _: ? Is that a yes? : Yes. : Okay. : That's all right. : Sorry. : No problem. EFTA00062313 22 1 : That's only because of 2 this. 3 : Yeah, yeah. 4 : You know, picking it up. 5 : So -- 6 : I knew what you meant. 7 : -- that night, were you in 8 the SHU when this happened? Did 9 approach you in the SHU? 10 : Yes. 11 : So, that night, when that 12 happened, I'm running around, as I normally do, 13 doing things in the SHU. I get the call on the 14 radio. You know, you've got to return, coming 15 into SHU, or whatever. So, when he gets 16 brought in or whatever -- 17 : Who gets brought in? 18 : -- Epstein. 19 : Okay. 20 : Epstein gets brought into the 21 SHU. Just like normal, you know, like, you 22 take them, pat search them, and everything like 23 that, before you put them in the cell. So, 24 informed me, hey, he needs to make a 25 phone call, I don't know if, like, you know, EFTA00062314 23 1 the judge or anybody tell him that, like, yeah, 2 he gets to make a phone call or whatever. So, 3 okay, no problem. You know, you're owing me at 4 this point in time or whatever. So, now, at 5 that point in time, there was a lot of stuff 6 going on. That, I do remember. There was a 7 lot of things going on. Two other inmates 8 attempted suicides, and, you know -. 9 : We'll come to I'm going 10 to go through that, too. 11 : Okay. 12 : You said, so, approximately 13 what time did Epstein get brought back? Do you 14 recall? 15 : It was 8:00 something, but it 16 was, like, very close to, like, the end of the 17 day. It was locking time. The day was done. 18 Because Epstein usually did that. He would 19 stay with his lawyers from the time in the 20 morning, to the end, when they couldn't stay no 21 more. 22 : Okay. 23 : So, he would wait all the way 24 to the very end. And he came back after the 25 legal visits were done, that's around the time EFTA00062315 24 1 he came back. That day, a specific time, I 2 can't remember. But I know it was around 8:00 3 ish, you know, 8:00, 9:00 ish. 4 : That's fine. 5 : Because the legal visits 6 usually end about 8:00. But, you know, there 7 was other things going on. You know that? 8 : Who brought him back? 9 • handed him off to me. 10 : So -- 11 : If I remember correctly. 12 -- so, he brought him back 13 from attorney visiting? 14 15 16 : Yes. : Okay. : So, he handed him off to me, 17 and told me he needed a phone call or whatever. 18 So, I had to put Epstein, you know - where'd I 19 put him? - I had to put him in the shower 20 because I couldn't put him in the room, with 21 the phone, by himself, and I'm pulling out 22 other inmates at the time, because one of them 23 had a noose tied around his neck. He was 24 probably playing it, but you can't joke like 25 that. EFTA00062316 25 1 2 : : Which inmate? Do you recall? I don't remember his name at 3 the moment. 4 : Okay. And so, you put him in 5 the shower, you said? 6 : Yeah. 7 : And what did instruct 8 you? 9 : And what - oh, just to give 10 him a social call, and that's it. 11 : So, it was a social call, he 12 mentioned? 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : Not a legal call? 15 : I believe it was a social 16 call. 17 : And do you recall, who 18 plugged the phone in? Was it you or 19 : I don't remember who plugged 20 the phone in. 21 : Okay. And do you remember 22 who he said that Epstein wanted to talk to? 23 : No. He never told me who 24 Epstein wanted to talk to. 25 : Was any of the instructions, EFTA00062317 26 1 like, did walk with you to the -? Did 2 he come into the shower area with you? 3 : No. 4 : Well, who provided him 5 the call? Did give him the phone, or 6 did you give him the phone? 7 : I think gave him the 8 phone. 9 : All right. 10 : Because I didn't hand him the 11 phone. 12 : Okay. 13 : I mean, told me what 14 he, you know, what he needed or whatever. 15 Okay. No problem. Took him over there to the 16 shower, put him in there, and then, I can't 17 remember who plugged in the phone, to give him 18 the phone call. I don't remember right now. 19 20 21 : Because did you -- : You might add -. : -- ever finish that 22 sentence? So, finish the sentence -- 23 : Yeah. 24 : -- before asking the 25 questions. EFTA00062318 27 1 : Like -. 2 : Okay. 3 : Because it was two years 4 ago. He's got to -. And doesn't it say in 5 there 6 : Yeah. It'll go. 7 : -- that -. 8 informed that he made 9 the decision to have Epstein call from G-tier 10 shower to make the call, and believes 11 : That, I did. Because I told 12 him, put him over here. Because we couldn't 13 put him next to these other inmates. That, 14 yeah. 15 : Okay. Because those are the 16 inmates that was threatening suicide? 17 18 19 20 his tier. 21 22 23 24 : Yeah. : Okay. : They were, and they were on : Okay. : So, on L-tier? : Yeah. : Was, people were 25 threatening suicide? EFTA00062319 28 1 2 3 : Yeah. : Okay. : I'm going to read that. 4 " informed that he made the decision to 5 have Epstein call from the G-tier shower to 6 make the call, and believes guards Noel and 7 were present, as well. informed 8 that dialed the number for Epstein." 9 : There we go. Yeah, because 10 this was a long time ago. 11 further informed that 12 he did not overhear the conversation, and that 13 was present for the call initially. 14 And then, left before the call ended. 15 says that during the Epstein call, another 16 inmate, Williams, was claiming to want to come 17 in from suicide, so that diverted some guards 18 from Epstein." And do you know how long 19 Epstein's call lasted? 20 : I'm not sure how long that 21 call lasted. I'm sure we could look on the 22 computer and get it. 23 : Do you know if 24 plugged that line into the legal line, or the - 25 EFTA00062320 29 1 : I don't. 2 : You don't know if it was a 3 recorded phone call? 4 5 6 Does : I don't. : Okay. And was that normal? normally do that? Allow calls on 7 the legal line, or -? 8 : Not without permission, to my 9 knowledge. 10 : Who would have to give 11 permission? 12 : Like, I've heard times that, 13 you know, a judge may call, like, this person 14 needs a legal call. And when that happens or 15 whatever, like, all right, we got to get these 16 people a legal call. And so, that does happen, 17 but I've never known him to do that on his own 18 accord. 19 : Okay. Our understanding is, 20 based on the investigation, I think Epstein 21 stated that he wanted to call his mother. So, 22 you think that would have been on the - that 23 should have been on the -? 24 : That should have been on the 25 recorded line. EFTA00062321 30 1 : That should have been. Okay. 2 And it should not have been on the legal line? 3 : No. 4 : And do you recall if 5 stayed with him for a little bit? Did he listen 6 to the conversation? Did anybody listen to the 7 conversation? 8 : I don't think so. Well, 9 that's -. 10 : Well, it says in here 11 that - so, just read the -- 12 13 14 : Yeah. : -- yeah. : Because I know was up 15 there for a while. 16 : Do you know how long 17 was there? Was he there for the 18 majority of the conversation, or just a 19 portion? 20 : Oh, maybe a portion, but I was 21 busy at the time, so I couldn't 22 23 24 whole time. 25 : Sure. : -- wasn't looking at him the : Because we have other EFTA00062322 31 1 people that were in there, that stated that 2 basically gave him a call, and left. 3 : Okay. 4 : And then, later, called 5 back and said, hey, his phone call is up, go 6 get the phone from him. 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : Does that sound right? 9 : That sounds about right or 10 whatever. I don't think I took that call. But 11 I do remember when -- 12 : Yeah. I don't think you 13 did, either. 14 : -- yeah, but I know when 15 everything was all said and done, then dealing 16 with the other inmates, you know, I can't 17 remember who took the phone out. I do remember 18 helping somebody bring Epstein back to his 19 cell, and put him in the cell, because I think 20 I was the one that put him in the cell. 21 : You put him back into his 22 cell? 23 : In his cell. 24 : Okay. You know, from the 25 shower, you brought Epstein back from G-tier EFTA00062323 32 1 over to L-tier. 2 : To his cell. 3 : Or into his cell. Okay. 4 : So, when you went to get 5 Epstein out of the cell, was the phone still in 6 there with him? 7 : I don't remember. 8 : Okay. And do you know how 9 long after he started the phone call, you 10 brought him back to the cell? 11 : With everything going on 12 : Just read it. 13 : I mean -. 14 : I think it says it in 15 there. So, you could keep on reading, and 16 then, it'll probably get to that. 17 "After all the guards dealt 18 with inmate Williams, Epstein needed to be 19 placed back in the cell. recalls no 20 other guard getting up to move Epstein, so he 21 made the move at approximately 9:30 p.m." 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 . recalls guard Noel 24 filing out the 30-minute round paperwork, while 25 he did some of the administrative computer EFTA00062324 33 1 stuff. informed that -." 2 : Before we get onto that, 3 though -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- does that sound right? 6 9:30 p.m.? Was that when 7 : Mm-hmm. 8 : so, he basically was 9 put in there - what does it sound like? 10 around 8:00, and then, about -- 11 12 13 back? 14 : Mm-hmm. : -- 9:30, you moved him : Yeah. Because I, like, he had 15 to stay in there a little longer than probably 16 we wanted, because so much stuff was going on 17 that day. 18 : Right. 19 : Do you -. Go ahead. 20 : So, being that he was in 21 there for probably an hour, maybe an hour and a 22 half, the majority of that time wasn't spent on 23 the phone. Correct? 24 : No. 25 : Can you estimate, like, EFTA00062325 34 1 around -? 2 : Because if his phone calls 3 ended after 15-minutes, if did call 4 back or whatever, and that phone call - that 5 phone is supposed to die, it's supposed to go 6 off anyway after a certain timeframe. 7 : Even on a legal line? 8 : Not on a legal line. 9 : Right. So, the 10 information we have is, it was actually a legal 11 line call. 12 : Okay. 13 : And that's what we're a 14 little confused about, why he was given a 15 personal call on a legal line. But do you know 16 anything about that? 17 : I know up there in that SHU, 18 that if - and it's very difficult, especially 19 when you're short-staffed - you know, you have 20 orderlies that walk around and, you know, try 21 to help keep the place clean. If you're short 22 staffed, and you can't be everywhere, and you 23 have an orderly cleaning the tier, they will 24 take those little things, and flip the, you 25 know? Like, so, if you have somebody that's EFTA00062326 35 1 coming up to SHU to work overtime, who doesn't 2 work up there all the time, they don't know 3 that the inmate pulled a fast one, and moved 4 the thing that says legal down to social, and 5 vice versa. 6 : Oh, well, the information 7 we have is actually, it was an intentional 8 legal line. So, not that, like, an orderly 9 actually misplaced it, but it was intentionally 10 11 : No, no, no. Not the orderly 12 putting the line in or whatever. What I'm 13 saying is the stickers on the jacks on the 14 wall. 15 : Yeah, no, our information 16 is that actually was instructed, or 17 provided, was provided approval to give a legal 18 call. 19 : Oh, okay. 20 : And do a legal line. But 21 the instructions were also, that we understand, 22 that 23 call. 24 was supposed to monitor the entire : Hmm. 25 : And that's where we're EFTA00062327 36 1 trying to get, like, all right, well, how long 2 was that call, and how long did he monitor? Do 3 you know? 4 Gotcha. 5 6 7 -. 8 : And do you know that? : That, I don't know. Because I : So, if it lasted 15 9 minutes, do you think he was there for, like, 10 five minutes? The fact that he had to go back 11 somewhere, and then call, and say, hey, his 12 call is up, get that -- 13 : Yeah. 14 phone from him. Do 15 you remember -? Just because you put in there 16 that he did stay for the call. Can you -- 17 : Yes, I'm -- 18 -- in your recollection 19 at all, can you think about, about how long he 20 was even there? 21 : Probably somewhere between 22 five to ten minutes, but, like -- 23 : Okay. 24 : I mean, like, all that time 25 passed now, and I was running around, and -- EFTA00062328 37 1 : Sure. But just, you know 2 he wasn't there for the whole entire thing? 3 : Right. 4 : Okay. Sure. 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 : And just to clarify, you 7 don't recall if gave instructions to 8 you, or if you overheard him give instructions 9 to Noel or about -- 10 : No. 11 -- monitoring the call? 12 : No. 13 : Okay. 14 : Like, because usually, on a 15 social call, you don't really have to monitor, 16 because you could just go on the computer, and 17 listen to the phone call. You know, on legal 18 calls, you know, they have attorney/client 19 privilege, so you can't listen anyway. So, any 20 time I know it may be a legal call going on, 21 and I know I can't listen in, it's because they 22 - well, this is now - but they put inmates in a 23 little visit room for their legal calls, so 24 they could do the teleconference because of 25 COVID. EFTA00062329 38 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : But I can't even - you know 3 I can't sit there and listen to him make his 4 legal call. 5 : Sure. 6 : So, I, you know -? 7 : So, either way, you 8 didn't think you had to listen, because if it 9 was a legal line, you can't listen; if it was 10 social line, it was supposed to be recorded? 11 : Right. 12 : All right. And then, do 13 you -? 14 : And if we had more time, if I 15 knew, you know -- 16 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. 17 -- what to do. 18 : Absolutely. But do you 19 remember, did he instruct you to monitor the 20 call after he left? 21 : No. 22 : No. 23 : No. 24 : Okay. Okay. 25 : Any other questions on that? EFTA00062330 39 1 : No. 2 : Because I'm going to jump 3 off. Okay. recalls guard Noel filling 4 out the 30-minute round paperwork while he did 5 some administrative computer stuff." 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Do you know if she pre-filled 8 the 30-minute round paperwork? 9 : I do not. 10 : Okay. 11 : Is this the paperwork? 12 What's this? 13 : Yeah. 14 : That's the 30-minute round 15 sheet. Yeah. 16 : So, it's on August 9th, 17 2019? 18 : Is that for the SHU? 19 : Mm-hmm. Nope. This is L- 20 tier. 21 : This would be during evening 22 watch? 23 24 25 : This is morning watch. : Mm-hmm. : Day watch. Evening watch. EFTA00062331 40 1 : Okay. And you were working 2 during evening watch, right? 3 : From 2:00 to 10:00. 4 : So, who was doing the round 5 sheets? 6 : So, this is Noel right here. 7 : Who's on the other one? 8 : This one? 9 : Yeah. 10 : I have no idea whose signature 11 this is. This is day shift. Yeah. I don't 12 know whose signature this is right here. 13 • ? Is it -. 14 : Actually, hmm 15 : Like, 16 : It actually might be. Yeah. 17 That looks like an "R." Yeah. 18 : You're not sure, but 19 maybe , though? 20 : Yeah. Maybe. 21 : Because it stops, it 22 looks like, at about 2:00 p.m., and wasn't 23 done by, like, around 2:00 p.m.? 24 : That's exactly right, because 25 that's when I came in. So, I relieved EFTA00062332 41 1 that day. So, he stopped right here. 2 : And is that why they 3 stopped there, because he left? 4 : He -- 5 : So, it looks like they 6 weren't -- 7 : -- yeah, so, I guess the 8 9 : -- filled in for the rest 10 of the 11 : -- right, because the -- 12 : -- time. 13 : -- date, when I relieved him, 14 I guess he must have been the one controlling 15 this paper. So, I relieved him. And the crew 16 here didn't continue it. I just came in. So, 17 I probably didn't know at the time or whatever. 18 But I think we probably did say later, like, 19 what the hell is this? 20 : Okay. So, it's probably 21 And then, as you noticed, the other 22 -. Do you know why the other round counts 23 wouldn't be filled - the round -? 24 : These? 25 : Yeah. EFTA00062333 42 1 2 3 filled in? 4 Yeah. : Why they wouldn't be For the day watch. The end 5 of day watch, and that would be from 6 : From 2:00 to 4:00. 7 -- 2:00 p.m. -. Yeah. 8 : Or 2:30, in this case. From 9 2:30 to 4:00. I'm going to assume that they 10 were forgetting because, like, from what I'm 11 looking at here - and this is just an 12 assumption - from what I'm looking at here, 13 from the time got into work, he was 14 the one filling out this paper. Nobody else 15 probably thought about it. 16 : Okay. So, when you 17 mentioned that Noel was filling out the 30- 18 minute round sheets, you're talking about over 19 here? 20 : Yeah. 21 : Okay. So, she was 22 filling out the -- 23 24 25 : Yeah -- : -- the day watch. : -- because she wasn't here EFTA00062334 43 1 yet. 2 : All right. 3 : She wasn't at work yet. 4 : Gotcha. So, what -. So, 5 we have information, the investigation has 6 informed us that she actually pre-populated the 7 round sheets that she filled out. Do you know 8 anything about her? When you say that she 9 filled out these things, did she fill them all 10 out in front of you? Did you see that? 11 : Huh-uh. I didn't see her do 12 that. 13 : You didn't see her pre- 14 populate it? Okay. Go ahead. 15 . informed that, before 16 he left -." 17 : I'm sorry. Sorry. I 18 should follow up. What did you see her do? 19 Since you said that you saw her filling out the 20 round sheets. 21 : Yeah. So -- 22 : What did you see? 23 -- yeah, I just saw the round 24 sheet sitting there, and she was doing it. So, 25 I'm assuming that she's just doing it for, EFTA00062335 44 1 okay, cool, we just did that round. And I'm on 2 the computer, doing the other admin work. 3 : Okay. So, you just -- 4 : Because -. 5 : -- saw her doing 6 something, but you weren't really watching over 7 her? 8 : Yeah. Because the thing is, 9 because remember when you asked me about the 10 SHU one position, and I'm SHU three? This is 11 the tricky part. may be on paper as 12 SHU one, but he's on overtime. I worked up 13 there every day. I'm the only one who has 14 access to do the stuff on the computer. 15 : Okay. 16 : So -. 17 : And what type of stuff 18 were you doing on the computer? 19 : So, the computer, you do 583s. 20 You do the - there's another SHU log-in there - 21 you do the 22 : When you say 583, that's 23 an incident report, right? 24 : Yeah. The incident reports. 25 You do the daily, like, inmates took showers, EFTA00062336 45 1 and then, the OIC thing has to have a 2 signature, but because nobody else has the 3 access to it, that portion will fall on me 4 because the paperwork still has to get done 5 anyway. 6 : Right. So, you were the 7 one on your shift that had access to the actual 8 computer systems 9 : Right. 10 : -- and the databases. 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Okay. 13 : Yeah, because they don't. So, 14 I'm, like -- 15 : Sure. 16 -- handle this paperwork. The 17 physical paperwork. I'll take care of the 18 computerized. 19 : Okay. 20 . informed that, before 21 he left, he conducted a round and spoke to 22 Epstein, and asked, `Are you good?', to which 23 Epstein gave a thumbs up response." 24 : Yes. 25 : When you say conducted a EFTA00062337 46 1 round, did you conduct a round through all the 2 tiers, or just around up to Epstein, just to 3 check on him? 4 : I specifically went to 5 Epstein. 6 : Okay. 7 : I specifically went to that 8 dude. 9 : And you checked on him? 10 : And I checked. I looked at 11 him. Yo, you good? He gave me a thumbs up or 12 whatever. All right. 13 : So, what do you mean? 14 Yeah. So, that, I think what his clarification 15 is, you did a round on Epstein. You didn't do 16 a round throughout the SHU. Correct? 17 : No. Not throughout the SHU. 18 I have specifically checked on him. 19 : Oh, gotcha. Okay. 20 said that, before he 21 left, he went back to guards Noel and 22 and -", oh, this -. Vo. said that, before 23 he left, he went back to guards Noel and 24 and `Make sure you watch him.' 25 Referring to Epstein, "He's your priority." EFTA00062338 47 1 The wording on this is wrong. Do you recall 2 stating that to and Noel? "Make sure 3 you watch him"? 4 : Yes, I did. 5 "He's your priority."? 6 : Yeah, I did. 7 : Why would you state something 8 like that? 9 : I just didn't like the way he 10 was looking. I can't determine what this man 11 was thinking, but -. And he normally, you 12 know, saying, you ask him a question, if it's a 13 yes or a no question, he would normally just 14 give you a thumbs up or whatever, and stuff, 15 like, pretty much just not want to be bothered 16 with you, for the most part. 17 : Well, it was -. Wasn't 18 it not true that he was kind of the priority 19 for the whole SHU? Was this sign up in the SHU, 20 saying that, "Mandatory rounds must be 21 conducted every 30 minutes on Epstein, as per 22 God." 23 : Yeah. That was in the SHU. 24 : So, do you remember 25 seeing that? EFTA00062339 48 1 : I do remember seeing that. 2 Where it was actually posted or whatever, I 3 don't know. 4 : I think it was on one of 5 the computers. 6 : Yeah. I do remember seeing 7 that. Yeah. 8 : So, I'm assuming that's 9 also part of the reason why you checked on 10 Epstein. Correct? 11 : Mm-hmm. 12 : Because he was the SHU 13 priority? 14 : Yeah. 15 : Yeah. And then, you were 16 just reinforcing two of the people when you 17 left, "Make sure you got him"? 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Okay. 20 : And then, I looked at the guy, 21 and then, you, you know, he just had a look on 22 his face. I'm, like, and then, that -. And 23 I'm, like, yeah. I stopped. 24 : So, you actually thought 25 something might be up? EFTA00062340 49 1 : Yeah. Because I'm looking at 2 him, he gave me the thumbs up or whatever. 3 I'm, like, he just looked different. I can't 4 explain it. But he just looked different. You 5 know, he didn't look like himself. He's an 6 entitled 7 : Yeah, yeah. 8 : -- you know, rich guy or 9 whatever. You know? Just very nonchalantly or 10 whatever, I'm, like, you don't usually do it 11 that way. 12 : Okay. So, you -- 13 : But that's my personal 14 opinion. 15 : Yeah. 16 : That's not a fact. 17 : Did you mention that at 18 all to -? 19 : I didn't tell them that part. 20 I just said, "Watch this guy." 21 : All right. So, you 22 didn't say why to watch him -- 23 : Hmm-mm. 24 • • 25 sure you watch him"? -- you just said, "Make EFTA00062341 50 1 : Yeah. I didn't give them no 2 details. I just said, "Watch this guy." 3 : Did you have a feeling 4 that he might hurt himself or anything like 5 that? 6 : I didn't know, but I just felt 7 that it was the best thing to just keep an eye 8 on this dude. 9 : Okay. 10 : Mm-hmm. 11 : Something - your spidey 12 senses went up and said - something -- 13 : Mm-hmm. 14 : -- something is amiss 15 here, or make sure you're watching him. 16 : Yeah. 17 : And your positive you 18 told them that? 19 : Yeah. 20 : Okay. And to both of 21 them? Or you just said it both at the same 22 time, or individually? 23 : I said it both at the same 24 time. 25 : All right. EFTA00062342 51 1 : So -. 2 : And that would have been 3 right around 10:00 p.m. 4 : Yeah. Right before I left, I 5 was, like, yeah, keep an eye on that dude. 6 : Okay. 7 : And right out the door. 8 9 10 they say okay? 11 : Okay. : Did they respond to you? Did : I don't even remember if they 12 did. I know they heard me because I was 13 standing right in front of them, but I don't 14 even remember if they responded or not. 15 : And then, when he gave you a 16 thumbs up, did he say anything else to you? 17 : Hmm-mm. 18 : There was no verbal 19 conversation? 20 : No. 21 : Okay. 22 : He very rarely talked unless 23 he wanted something. Yeah. 24 : Okay. And just because I'm 25 showing you these documents, can you initial EFTA00062343 52 1 and date the top of them? It's not to test 2 what's on the documents, it's more to -- 3 4 5 : To show you that -- : -- for our records, that -. : I saw it. 6 : You saw it. These are 7 documents we showed you. 8 : And you want me to sign and 9 date? 10 11 8/5/2021. 12 : And you said it was 8/5 -? Initial and date. Today is 13 '21. The same thing for the 14 other ones, too. Excuse me. This one, too? 15 : Yes, please. This, we'll 16 keep, just in case we go back and refer to it. 17 So, I'm going to read that line back, and 18 finish off the paragraph. said that, 19 before he left, he went back to guards Noel and 20 and, `Make sure you watch him," 21 referring 22 23 24 25 word. : And stated. Yeah. : Make sure you have that EFTA00062344 53 1 : "And stated," just make sure 2 I put that, "And stated, `Make sure you watch 3 him,' referring to Epstein, `He's your 4 priority.'" 5 : Mm-hmm. 6 stated that Epstein 7 seemed normal and he was just sitting there." 8 : And that's correct. 9 Right? 10 : Mm-hmm. Yeah because, like, 11 it's an opinion of mine. I can't tell you 12 : Sure. 13 : -- what I'm thinking. 14 : Absolutely. We just want 15 to make sure that the report is accurate. 16 . explained the 30- 17 minute rounds, and when asked about the 18 paperwork, stated that the exact times are 19 probably off because they are estimates." What 20 do you mean by "Estimates"? 21 : Because, at that point in 22 time, it was only three of us in there. You 23 know, so, is working overtime. So, 24 he's doing multiple things. He's doing his 25 regular job, and SHU stuff at the same time. EFTA00062345 54 1 So, and then, you got dudes over here acting 2 like they want to commit suicide. So now, as 3 you're doing rounds, and everything is going 4 on, you talk to one inmate, now this inmate has 5 a problem. You may forget sometimes to go up 6 there and just write it, you know, write it in 7 or whatever. So, sometimes they might be, 8 like, shit, fuck, I forgot. And then, they'll 9 go back or whatever. I'm not saying, but 10 that's just, you know, normal or whatever, 11 like, oh, man, I forgot. And you just go write 12 in it. That's just normal, how they do it. 13 That's why I hate these papers. I rather just 14 do it on the computer because you can't miss. 15 16 17 more, right? 18 : You have questions on that? : But there's still some : Yeah. "When told that there 19 is a video of the SHU area, stated that 20 he would be surprised to see video of the 21 rounds not being conducted." 22 : Mm-hmm. 23 : When asked about -. 24 : Because they were on their 25 feet all day. EFTA00062346 55 1 : So, you're saying that they 2 went in and they did the rounds? 3 : Yeah. I've seen it. Because 4 as I'm doing my paperwork and talking to 5 inmates and stuff like that, they were moving 6 the whole time. I, you know, like, if I 7 remember correctly, I barely saw them sit down. 8 : So, you saw them moving. Did 9 you actually see them do the rounds, or you 10 just saw them move? 11 : I saw them going in and out of 12 tiers or whatever, because -. I know 13 had a blue bin, at one point in time, 14 he was going from tier to tier, doing 15 something. And I think Noel had the key. You 16 know, but it was a lot of movement that day. 17 So, I guess that's the best way to put it. 18 : So, you saw movement, but you 19 don't You didn't actually see 20 (Indiscernible *00:34:18)? 21 : They had to go down the range, 22 but I didn't, like -. Every single time, at 23 every 30-minute mark -- 24 : Yeah. 25 : I don't know. EFTA00062347 56 1 : Okay. 2 : Just finish the thing, 3 and then -- 4 : Yeah. 5 : -- you can ask the 6 additional questions. 7 : "When asked about the round 8 sheets and the sign-off procedures, could 9 not clearly remember who did what rounds 10 exactly, or what, if any, rounds he did. Only 11 that -- 12 : Mm-hmm. 13 -- he would not have signed 14 off on the rounds had they not been conducted." 15 : That's true. 16 : And based on the round 17 sheets, you're saying that you saw Noel? 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : Is that Noel's signature on 20 - 21 : That's Noel. 22 : -- on the evening watch? 23 : Mm-hmm. 24 : Is that for all the tiers? 25 (Indiscernible *00:34:50) . EFTA00062348 57 1 2 3 4 : This is -- : That's for L-tier, right? : -- this is for L-tier. Each sheet is for a different tier. And this is J- 5 tier. So, J-tier didn't get finished. K-tier 6 didn't get finished. 7 : What do you mean, they didn't 8 get finished? 9 : There's blank spots. 10 : For what time? 11 : 11:00 and 12:00. 12 : What were they doing? 13 : 11:00 - excuse me - 11:00 and 14 through 11:30. 15 : What's your take -- 16 : So -. 17 -- on why they would be 18 empty? 19 : Maybe they didn't -. Maybe 20 they didn't do it. I don't know. I don't know 21 why it would be empty. I'm thinking too much 22 now because I'm, like, if this was finished, 23 why wasn't -? 24 : What is it? You hesitated. 25 : Yeah. EFTA00062349 58 1 2 3 4 : Explain that. : Like, I don't know. Because if you were doing the round here, how did you - ? Unless something happened at that time, at 5 night, but I wasn't at work at that time. 6 Because this is after -- 7 : Okay. 8 : -- this is after 10:00. 9 : After 10:00. 10 : So, I wasn't here for this. 11 : So, you're saying there's 12 about three tiers where it wasn't finished off, 13 right? The K-tier. 14 : Mm-hmm. 15 : That's J-tier. 16 : That's J. 17 : And -. 18 : J-tier. K-tier. H. 19 : H-tier. 20 : And G. 21 : They weren't finished off? 22 : Hmm-mm. 23 : Okay. Do you know where? 24 Where were these round sheets kept in the SHU? 25 : There's been so many changes EFTA00062350 59 1 in here. 2 : On August 9th and 10th -- 3 : Yeah. 4 : -- do you recall where these 5 forms were? 6 : I believe this was by the 7 desk. 8 : On the officer's desk? 9 : I believe so. 10 : Where are the forms supposed 11 to be kept? 12 : When initially I was trained, 13 they were on the desk. As time went on, they 14 said they wanted them on the tiers. So, a 15 definitive answer on that, the instruction on 16 that has changed so much, like, you know, one - 17 - 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : -- one day, they was, like, 20 keep them on the ranges, another day you come 21 in or whatever, leave it right here so you 22 can't miss it, so you don't lose any papers. 23 : Why do they keep it on the 24 ranges? 25 : So, on the ranges, when you do EFTA00062351 60 1 do a round or whatever, you go and do a whole 2 round, when you get to the end of the range, 3 the paper is right there on the clipboard. So, 4 you could sign it, and finish the round, and 5 come out. 6 : Just to ensure that they're 7 actually -- 8 : Right. 9 : -- doing their rounds. Okay. 10 And how many people are needed to conduct 11 rounds? 12 : Only one person is needed to 13 conduct a round. 14 : Not two people? 15 : No. Two people are needed for 16 a count. 17 : And -. 18 : Because, you know, like, in 19 the -. Unless it's one -. 20 : Was that per policy, or 21 is that per practice? 22 : Per practice. When you do a 23 round, it's one person that opens the grill, 24 and one person goes down. Is that what you 25 mean? Because, you know, a count, one person EFTA00062352 61 1 goes down, comes out, and then, the next person 2 goes down and comes out. But for a round, only 3 one person. 4 : So, we were informed by 5 per policy, at least, counts and rounds are 6 conducted exactly the same way. The only thing 7 difference is that, in a count, you count 8 inmates. Is that not correct? 9 : Not the way I was taught, but 10 that's per - I'm going to be honest - that's 11 per practice. 12 : And is that even to date, 13 that's what they do? 14 : I haven't been in the SHU 15 since -- 16 : Okay. 17 -- so, I don't know what 18 they're doing up there. 19 : Oh, you haven't been in 20 SHU since this date? 21 : I've been in there after that 22 date, but I haven't been in the SHU in months. 23 : Okay. So, when you were, 24 after that date, though, they never went over, 25 like, how to conduct a round? And so, yeah, EFTA00062353 62 1 everything that we're saying is that a round 2 and a count is exactly the same. Two people 3 are needed. The only difference is, during a 4 count, you count. 5 : Hmm. No. I don't -- 6 : You've never heard of 7 that? 8 : I don't remember - after 9 that incident - I don't remember having that 10 discussion with anyone. 11 12 only one person -- 13 14 15 : So, your understanding is : That's my -- : -- per count -- : -- that's my understanding. 16 : -- per round. Okay. 17 : Okay. Any other questions on 18 the rounds? 19 : Yeah. So, as far as, do 20 you know if these rounds that were on this 21 round sheet, were they all conducted as it's 22 filled out? 23 24 25 : That, I don't know, because -- : You're not sure? : I'm not sure. EFTA00062354 63 1 : So, what is your 2 understanding, if the one person is only 3 filling out the count, is she filling it out on 4 behalf of - so, in this case, it was Noel - is 5 she filling it out on behalf of everybody in 6 the SHU, or is she only saying that she 7 conducted the round? 8 : I'm going to assume that she 9 was filling it out for everybody that was 10 working. Like, so, if she did a round, and 11 did a round, she just filled it out, 12 in that case. I learned my lesson from that, 13 so I only signed when I did it. 14 : Yeah, yeah, yeah. For 15 that point forward, correct? 16 : Hell no. I knew that, learned 17 that before it. 18 : All right. 19 : So, you only would fill it 20 out. So, you're not, obviously, on here. But 21 is she filling it out for both you and 22 , as well? 23 : I'm going to assume, maybe. 24 : Okay. 25 : But I don't know what her EFTA00062355 64 1 thought process is with this. 2 : So, how it mentioned 3 there that, you know, the video would be 4 reviewed. That video has been reviewed, in 5 detail. 6 : Mm-hmm. 7 : Do you believe that all 8 these rounds were conducted on that date? 9 : I believe the vast majority of 10 them should have been. Now, were all of them? 11 Because I know for a fact, me personally, I 12 wasn't the one to do every -- 13 : So, you 14 : -- single round. 15 : -- so, you weren't the 16 one conducting the round, but you can't say if 17 the other people were? 18 : I can't -- 19 : You can only -. 20 : I can't say that. 21 : All right. Do you 22 believe all those rounds were conducted? 23 : I believe, I definitely 24 believe this - what is this? L and M, and I'm 25 just confused as to the rest. EFTA00062356 65 1 : Because again -- 2