APPEARANCES:

1 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: 2 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 12, 2019 FENTON TRANSCRIPTION Phone: 3 4 1 MR. : Today is Monday, August 1 Basis. Do you have any questions about this 2 3 12. The followin will be a voiiiiiii interview of in 2 3 form? : MR. No. 4 furtherance o OIG investigation to be 4 MR. : Would you like time to 5 determined, for the purpose of transcription, S review it with an attorney, or would you like 6 7 will now identify all present in the interview. I'll ask everyone to say and spell their last 6 7 an attorniiiiiii? MR. : For now, I don't need an 8 name, as well as identify their working title 8 attorney. 9 and employer. 9 MR. : Okay. Are you currently 10 I am S ecial Agent , 10 under the influence of any substances, or is 11 Office of the Inspector General. 11 there any reason to prevent you from fully 12 : MR. Special Agent , - 12 understanding my questions and answering 13 with the FBI. 13 truthfull toda ? 14 MR. . , 14 MR. : No. 15 Federal Bureau of Prisons. Selling of the 15 MR. : I'll now swear you to the 16 name is first name is , last name is 16 statements you're about to make. Please raise 17 17 your hand and re'eat after me. 18 18 I 19 IR. : Thank you. Warden 19 MR. : I, . 20 -- 20 MR. : Hereby solemnly swear or 21 MR. : Um-hum. 21 affirm. 22 MR. : -- you have reviewed and 22 MR. : Hereby solemnly swear or 23 signed Department of Justice OIG Form 226-2 23 affirm. 24 which is Warnings and Assurances of Employees 24 MR. : That the statements that 25 Request to Provide Information on a Voluntary 25 I'm about to make. EFTA00091769 S 6 1 2 3 4 S 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : That the statements I'm about to make. MR. : Shall be the truth and the whole truth. MR. whole truth. MR. : Thank you, sir. MR. Um-hum. MR. : =Would you mind telling us a little bit about your career with BOP? When you started, how you became a Warden? MR. Mi Uh -- MR. : How you moved up the ranks. • Shall be the truth and the : Great. How ong have you 1 been the Warden? 2 MR. . I've been here since May of 3 2018. 4 MR. : Okay, great. Just, your S role, you've done a lot of internal 6 investigations with the prison and you've 7 worked with the Department of Justice for -- 8 MR. n Um-hum. 9 MR. : -- moving forward, just as 10 a note for the record, you're aware that 11 failure to be honest with us today would be 12 considered a criminal offense; correct? 13 MR. Mi Yes. 14 MR. : Okay, great. Let's talk a 15 little bit about some overall policies at the 16 prison to start with. 17 MR. Mi Okay. 18 MR. : So, actually let me back 19 up. We're here today to talk about, 20 specificall Jeffrey Epstein. 21 MR. • Um-hum. 22 MR. : The inmate. 23 MR. Um-hum. 24 MR. : Would you mind just 25 telling us a little bit about when, your 7 1 understanding of when he arrived and that type 2 of, when he arrived, how he was placed, where 3 he was placed and the reasons behind that? 4 MR. IIIIIII: I don't remember the S specific date he arrived, but we didn't, what 6 happened was, we weren't told that he was going 7 to be comin to the institution. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : When he initially came, he 10 was dropped off on the weekend, and we didn't 11 find out until Monday, myself, that he had been 12 placed at the institution. And from then on, 13 we, you know, went through the whole process of 14 the screening, his medical stuff. Just normal 15 procedures that we follow and (Indiscernible 16 *00:04:04). 17 MR. : Okay. Now when you say 18 "he was dropped off over the weekend", when 19 somebody arrives at the facility, what's the 20 normal -- 21 MR. : I mean typically if 22 somebody's that high profile -- 23 MR. : Um-hum. 24 MR. : -- we should've been 25 notified and said hey, he's coming in. We 8 1 weren't. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : You know, I mean, we saw it 4 on the news, but it didn't say. They just said S they had him in custody, but we didn't get any 6 formal, I didn't get any formal notice that he 7 had been brought into the institution. 8 So, he was dropped off, and you know, the 9 Lieutenant on shift processed him in and 10 brought him into the institution. We didn't 11 find out or realize it until Monday. 12 MR. : So, it was Monday that you 13 first were officially made aware of it? 14 MR. : That I was made aware. You 15 know, we found out, and I don't remember if it 16 was from looking at the news reports, we put it 17 together that he had been brought into the 18 institution. We went through our Monday 19 morning meeting that we went through. So, 20 that's when -- 21 MR. : When he first arrived, was 22 he placed in general population? Do you know 23 where he iiiiiiiced? 24 MR. : I don't recall where he was 25 placed when he came in. EFTA00091770 9 1 MR. : At some point, he was 2 placed in S ecial Housing Unit? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Known as the SHU. S MR. : Right. 6 MR. : how did he end up there? 7 MR. : Well, he was a new 8 commitment. He was high profile. So, we 9 placed him in the Special Housing Unit so we 10 can further evaluate, you know, his status. Is 11 he ready for general population? And we do 12 that with all inmates, but -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- and then to see, okay, 15 any separation issues. Any threats to him, 16 before we put him out there in general 17 population. 18 MR. : Was he ever in general 19 population? 20 MR. : I don't recall. I don't, 21 I'm not sure if it might've been the first day 22 when he came in. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : But I'm not sure, so I mean, 25 I would have to look at the 37 to confirm. 10 1 MR. : But as far as you know, 2 that Monday, the first business day after the 3 weekend he was initially dropped off. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : From that point forward, 6 was he ever in eneral population? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Okay. What are the 9 policies in terms of, or is there policy that 10 dictates when somebody goes into general 11 population from the SHU after the first 12 arrival? 13 MR. : Well, what we do is we 14 evaluate the individual to see if they're ready 15 for general population, if they can hang, you 16 know -- 17 MR. : Um-hum. 18 MR. -- if they can populate. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : And it's a number of 21 factors. It depends. I mean, if I have a gang 22 member coming in, I'm taking into consideration 23 separation issues on it. If it's, you know, 24 somebody that might've been fraud or bank 25 fraud, then we determine if it's any issues of 11 1 them going into the general population. So, 2 it's a case-by-case basis on how we determine 3 it. 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Okay. What are the policies in terms of when you're notified if someone enters Special Housing Unit or is discharged from Special Housing Unit? MR. : Well what it is is, it's routed the individual, it's called a Release Form. So, several people sign it. They review it. I believe psychology, CMC, the Captain, and it goes to the Associate Warden and then they sign what we call is a Kick-Out. Meaning everybody's reviewed it and said, okay, this person isiiiiiiiii ate for general population. MR. : Okay. For Mr. Epstein, after that, he was never put in general population . correct? MR. No. MR. : Was the determination to keep him in Special Housing? What was the communication that goes on there? MR. : Well we, now initially when he came in, it's the goal to determine, okay, can they go to general population. 12 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, between evaluating him, 3 at the same time, we're looking at saying, 4 okay, can he o to general population. S MR. : Um-hum. 6 MR. : So, it's a dual role that 7 we're goin to -- 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : But I had gotten word, and I 10 don't recall the date, where from my Regional 11 Director which stated he's not to go to general 12 population until further notice. 13 MR. : The Regional Director, 14 where is that in the chain of command for BOP? 15 MR. : We have five regional 16 offices. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Each region has a Regional 19 Director. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : This is the Northeast 22 Region. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Where we have 21 2S institutions. So, he supervises and is in EFTA00091771 13 14 1 charge of the 21 institutions. 2 MR. : Okay. So, is he -- 3 MR. (Indiscernible *00:08:37). 4 MR. -- your direct supervisor? 5 MR. He's my director supervisor. 6 MR. : Oka . Who is that? 7 MR. phonetic sp.). 8 MR. 7 9 MR. Yeah. 10 MR. : And Mr. told you, 11 do you recall if it was verbally or an email? 12 Phone call? 13 MR. : We had talked about it, too, 14 but I would have to check if there was an email 15 to go with it. But we did talk and said, hey, 16 we're going to hold off on putting him out in 17 general 18 MR. : Okay. Do you recall when 19 you officially were, you and Mr. , spoke 20 about this? 21 MR. : I don't want to give you the 22 wrong date. But it was within that, you know, 23 maybe a ciiiiiiiiiks after he arrived. 24 MR. : Okay. So, it was a few 25 weeks after he arrived --1 2 3 4 S 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. Right. MR. IIIIIIIII: Okay. After Mr. told you to keep him, or it was agreed upon -- : Um-hum. -- to keep him in Special MR. MR. Housing Unit. MR. MR. Right. : Who did you notify that he was to stay in the Special Housing Unit? How does that communication -- MR. : So, what it does is I get my exec staff to ether -- MR. : Um-hum. MR. : -- which is my Associate Wardens, the Captain, my exec, and we have our meetings, and I tell them he's not, you know, I lay out the specific instructions. He's not to eneral population. And -- : Were there, sorry. Co ahead. No. : And that's basically how we go out to MR. MR. MR. MR. start. MR. Er Yeah. MR. : Okay. 15 1 MR. : Were there any other 2 specific directions or instructions given to 3 the staff re him? 4 MR. : Well, so at the time of him 5 staying in there, we had to find him initially 6 a roommate. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, and it's hard especially 9 in Special Housing Unit when you've got gang 10 members in there that are not appropriate to be 11 housed with. So, we came up with, I came up 12 with Tartaglione, who was in there. White 13 male, probably be able to cope with him. And 14 that's typically how we, you know, that's part 15 of the evaluation process. 16 MR. : Is it standard for inmates 17 in Special Housing Unit to have cellmates? 18 MR. : We typically would like for 19 them to have it. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : But certain situations 22 dictate that they can. If an inmate's a total 23 separation from a group, and we get word from 24 US Attorney's office or the arresting agents 25 that, hey, he's to be totally separated, then 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 they would be housed by themselves. They could have an incident in the institution, you know, for example our gang members, somebody has an issue, and for example, the Bloods, then we have to say hey, let's separate him from there. You know? MR. : Was there any directions specifically that Mr. Epstein was to have a cellmate at all times? MR. : From psychology when -- MR. : Okay. MR. : -- said hey, that he's required, he needs to have a cellmate at all times. MR. : Okay. And that occurred later on? When he first arrived, there was no specific directions regarding that; correct? MR. MR. MR. MR. : No, it wasn't. : Okay. : Wait, let me. : Sure. MR. : You mean when he in were we talkin about him having MR. : Initially. MR. : I don't recall any talks first came a cellmate? EFTA00091772 17 18 1 about him. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Initially, and trying to 4 figure out when he first came in, how he was 5 housed. I don't recall how he was housed when 6 he first came in but -- 7 MR. : Okay. The MCC is no 8 stranger to hi h profile -- 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. -- inmates. Generally 11 speaking, how do you normally, or generally 12 handle these type of high profile inmates? Any 13 other special considerations or concerns. How 14 does this work? 15 MR. : Again, you come in. We 16 evaluate him to determine, okay, if they can go 17 out to general population or not. We've had, 18 you know, we've had a bunch that come in that 19 were able to go out. We had (phonetic 20 sp.), you know, the phone thillon't know if 21 you recall, the one that sent the bombs to the 22 ex-presidents. 23 MR. : Indiscernible *00:12:41). 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Him. So, when he first came 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in, you know, he was high profile. So, we brought him in to determine -- FEt1ALE VOICE: Excuse me. MR. : Yeah. FEt1ALE VOICE: Can you guys step out here for just a moment? MR. : We, pausing the interview at 10:SS a.m. (tape paused). We're resuming the interview with Warden MR. MR. MR. : Yeah. MR. : (Indiscernible *00:00:14). The time is now 10:56. Joining the interview room is Assisting United States Attiiiiiiirom the Southern District of New York, MS. MR. Can you spell your name for transcription purposes? MS. : Sure. , I apologize. . Thanks. MR. : Thank you. Before we were 19 1 just going over some of the overall high- 2 profile inmates and the general -- 3 MR. Um-hum. 4 MR. : -- evaluation of them. 5 Going back to, you said earlier that a few 6 weeks had occurred. You and the Regional 7 Director discussed keeping Epstein in the 8 Special Housin Unit. 9 MR. : Um-hum. 10 MR. : How often was the Regional 11 Director bein briefed on Epstein? 12 MR. : I guess the situation 13 dictated it. If something happened, then we'd 14 notify him, or he needed some questions for 15 him, he would call me. But I don't want to, I 16 don't recall the specific amount of times. But 17 we were in contact. 18 MS. : Um-hum. 19 MR. Frequent contact. 20 MR. : Okay. How often were you, 21 are you notified differently of high-profile 22 inmates or how often were you being aware or 23 notified iiiiiiiein's housing situation? 24 MR. : Well, I mean, he was in the 25 Special Housing Unit. So, I knew where he was. 1 2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 MR. Okay. MR. W I So, it wasn't like I had to : be updated as to where he was. I knew where he was. MR. Okay. MR. W I I mean, I knew that he went : on his attorney visits, spent the whole day there. Would be the first one in, last one out. So, I mean, that's what I knew. And then I kind of (Indiscernible *00:02:06) with the attorneys. I had some outside attorneys complain about, you know, they were taking up the attorney room. So, I knew that was, you know, those issues were coming up with the attorney room. MR. : Okay. Going back to general policies at the -- MR. MR. actually when MR. : Um-hum. • -- within the BOP, stein arrive -- : Um-hum. MR. : I think we already covered this, but just to, were any special arrangements or considerations given to him? MR. : As far as -- EFTA00091773 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 21 MR. : Obviously you said earlier he was put in the SHU on Monday. MR. n Right. MR. : After, was it, at that point, was there any issues that you're aware of regarding him? Anything that you needed to be aware of other than just who he was? MR. : No. lust who he was and the basic scriiiiii iiiThe intake screening. MR. : Okay. At the time he first arrived, did you have any, was there any notification of any mental health concerns? MR. : No, not that I know of. MR. : Okay. How -- MR. : Are you talking about the weekend he came in, or -- MR. MR. MR. : Yeah. (Indiscernible *00:03:19). : First arrival. MR. : That weekend, I don't know. But I know afterwards, he was medically assessed and they were, you know, our health service department assessed him and he, I think he might have told him that he had certain medications. 22 1 MR. : Okay. When -- 2 MR. • -- that he was taking. 3 MR. : When inmates come into the 4 MCC, are they all screened for mental health 5 issues or medical issues? 6 MR. : Well, yes. They come in, 7 you're screened for your medical. The unit 8 team screens you and psychology screens you. 9 But -- 10 MR. : What timeframe does that 11 occur? 12 MR. : Typically like with him, he 13 came in on the weekend. So, it depends if 14 there was a psychologist. Maybe the next day 15 someone would go screen him, the on-call 16 psychologist. But, you know, or Monday if 17 someone came in. But typically the on-call 18 psychologist is there through the weekend and 19 will screen them. 20 MR. : Who is notified of the 21 results of those screenings? 22 MR. n of? 23 MR. : Of the medical screen and 24 psychological screenings, who gets notified of 25 that? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. find something in MR. MR. example? I mean MR. people need to be issues. How does disseminated? MR. medical issues, privacy issues. MR. MR. to be divul MR. MR. MR. 23 As far as what? If they there? : Yes. Like what would be an : Any medical concerns that aware of. Any psychological that information get : Because when we talk about some of that falls under : Um-hum. So, you know, it's not going to -- : Okay. -- just like that. : Sure. MR. . But as far as psychological, if it was something that psychologists did an interview and said, hey, there's a mental health issue or something, then she would, you know, she would let her Associate Warden know. She would let me know that, hey, there's some issues. 24 1 MR. : Okay. And when he first 2 arrived, were you made aware of any medical or 3 mental issues regarding him? 4 MR. : Mental health, I don't 5 recall any mental health. But I was told that 6 he was on certain medications or whatever. But 7 it was general. It wasn't -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- anything major. 10 MR. : Okay. And just, and 11 that's a general policy for all inmates that 12 arrive? 13 MR. • The screening, yeah. 14 MR. : lust the medical 15 screening. The all get that? 16 MR. • Right. 17 MR. : Is there any, as a result 18 of those screenings, is there any, does it have 19 any bearing on where they're placed, whether 20 it's special housing or general population? 21 MR. : I mean typically if you do, 22 like I said, if you do an intake screening and 23 the individual comes in and they have no 24 issues, no separation issues, and, you know, 25 then they can populate like anyone else. But EFTA00091774 25 1 if there are issues with them going out in 2 general population; i.e., safety issues, then 3 you would be laced in the Special Housing. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Until we could further 6 evaluate if ou could go to general population. 7 MR. : If someone during the 8 mental health screening, the mental health, the 9 psychologist deemed them to be suicidal -- 10 MR. In Okay. 11 MR. : -- what are the suicidal 12 watch policies as it relates to that? 13 MR. : So, if the psychologist was 14 to say, hey, they're suicidal, then they would 15 be placed on suicide watch. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. MI Now if the psychologist is 18 not there and someone exhibits suicidal 19 ideations or statements or thoughts, then 20 they're placed on suicide watch. 21 MR. : Can you explain to me what 22 suicide watch is, where it is in the MCC -- 23 MR. : It's on the second floor of 24 the institution, on the same floor of the 25 hospital. 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 MR. Okay. MR. W I And it's a cell, and if you : go on suicide watch, you're placed in a smock. MR. : Okay. MR. : That covers you and then you're watched for 24 hours. MR. : Now the smock, is that made of paper, or -- It's cloth. : Cloth? : It's like, you ever see where they have those heavy bomb MR. MR. MR. those movies vests? MR. MR. don't want to like that. MR. MR. MR. MR. that. So -- MR. monitored for MR. Uh • It's something, I mean, I you know, say, but it's something : Okay. • And it just hangs. : Sure. Hangs on them just like : And you said they're 24 hours. How are they, is it -- • There's a companion sitting 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there. An inmate. MR. MR. MR. MR. and observe. MR. : Okay. Is the companion another inmate or a staff? MR. : No, it's a trained inmate companion. Now, we have four cells. If those cells get full, then we have to move them up to the Special Housing Unit and then put a staff watch on them. MR. : Okay. What policies are in place for suicide watch as it relates to staff response, notification, how people get notified, if they're moving from suicide watch to off suicide watch. How does that work? MR. psycholog MR. : Okay. MR. : Psychology evaluates and they'll say, okay, we've evaluated him and, you know, wherever we're going, typically you always usually go from the Special Housing Unit : In the cell? • No. Outside the cell. : Okay. It's a cell where you sit 27 : That works through 28 1 to suicide. So, they'd say, okay you know 2 what, theiiiiiiiily to go back up. 3 MR. : Okay. What role, how does 4 the program, is the psychologist the program 5 coordinator? 6 MR. • The chief psychologist runs 7 the department. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. • And then she has various 10 psychologists that work under her. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : And then evaluate because we 13 have a different mission as far as we have a 14 forensic mission. So, we get a lot of forensic 15 studies in the institution. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And then we have a regular 18 psychologist also that handles the inmate 19 population but they work together and they 20 handle evS iiin. 21 MR. : Okay. Who's ultimately 22 responsible for placing somebody on suicide 23 watch or off suicide watch? 24 MR. : Well placing it, a staff 25 member comes and says hey, this guy is EFTA00091775 1 2 29 suicidal. You can place him on suicide watch. MR. : Okay. Anybody in the 1 2 30 MR. Yeah. They send out a form every day stating like who's on suicide watch, 3 institution can do that? 3 who's on s the observation. So -- 4 MR. : Yeah. If I come upon an 4 MR. : Okay. S inmate that's saying, "Hey, I'm going to kill S MR. : -- we're aware of who it is 6 myself." Okay, we get him on suicide watch. 6 and then they'll send out a form if there's no 7 Psychology comes and, you know, evaluates them 7 one on there. 8 and then comes u' with a plan. 8 MR. : You said earlier that 9 MR. : Within the psychology 9 while on suicide watch, there was an observer. 10 department -- 10 MR. Right. 11 • MR. Um-hum. 11 MR. : How does an inmate become 12 MR. : -- or the medical 12 an observer? 13 department there in mental health, who there 13 MR. It's an inmate companion. 14 15 ultimateli iiiiiii that decision? MR. : I believe, and don't quote 14 15 MR. MR. : A companion, I'm sorry. So, it's a trained program. 16 me on this. I believe the psychologists. 16 So, they have to go through training. They 17 MR. : Okay. 17 have to take courses, and then they become 18 MR. : You know, they're trained 18 eligible to become a companion. 19 professionals. So, they can make a decision 19 MR. : Who authorizes the use of 20 and they consult with the Chief in, you know, 20 an inmate comianion? 21 determining okay what's the plan of action to 21 MR. • The psychology department 22 move forward. 22 runs that. So -- 23 MR. : And are you, when 23 MR. : Do you have any input as 24 someone's placed in suicide watch, are you 24 the Warden in selecting or training or 25 notified of that? 25 implementing the inmate companion program? 31 32 1 MR. • No. 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Does every institution 2 MR. Clinical Director is a 3 4 have an inmate companion program? . MR. Yes. 3 4 separate 'Ili MR. : Okay. I apologize for 5 MS. : Who's the Chief S that. 6 Psychologist? 6 MR. • That's fine. 7 MR. . (phonetic 7 MR. : Thank you for clarifying. 8 sp.). 8 MR. • Okay. 9 MR. : And Ms. is the one 9 MR. : Who in the medical staff, 10 who is ultimately responsible for determining 10 just for my clarification, who in the medical 11 if someone is on suicide watch and removing 11 staff is ultimately responsible for removing 12 them; correct? 12 somebody from suicide watch? 13 MR. Well in conjunction with our 13 MR. : The psychology department 14 staff. 14 determines to remove somebody from -- 15 MR. : Okay. 15 MR. : So, who in the psychology 16 MR. . Because you could be, a 16 department? 17 psychologist is assigned to the individual when 17 MR. : Again, it depends on who's 18 they're working a plan with them. And if they 18 evaluatin• the inmate. 19 come to the determination that hey, you know 19 MR. : Okay. So -- 20 what, they no longer need to be on suicide 20 MR. : And so we have one, two, 21 22 watch. MR. : Okay. But as the clinical 21 22 three, realiiiii have, (Indiscernible *00:12:26) i uh, four. We have four 23 director, she's ultimately responsible. 23 psychologists on staff. 24 MR. : She's not the clinical. 24 MR. : You have four 2S She's the Chief Psychologist. 2S psychologists on staff. And any one of those EFTA00091776 33 1 four can remove somebody? 2 MR. • Can remove somebody. 3 MR. : Do those four have, who's 4 those four su ervisors? 5 MR. • Dr. 6 MR. : Dr. 7 MR. Yeah. 8 MR. : What authority does she 9 have to overrule them? 10 MR. : And I'm not a psychologist - 11 12 MR. Sure. 13 MR. Mi -- to know what procedures : 14 they use -- 15 MR. Um-hum. 16 MR. El -- or what conversation they : 17 have to determine if she's going to overrule 18 them. I mean, she's the supervisor, and it's 19 just like with any, you know, profession you 20 have. 21 MR. Right. 22 MR. El If I come up with some : 23 reasoning -- 24 MR. Um-hum. 25 MR. .! In saying hey, I don't agree : 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 with your decision, then we debate it and then we ultimatel come to a decision. MR. : Okay. MR. As to yay or nay. MR. : Okay. MR. : So, it's kind of the same thing. MR. : While on suicide watch, you said there's a 24-hour companion. What does staff do for the inmates while they're on suicide watch? MR. : Well we have a camera, well they're trained to, there's a phone there. So, let's say something happened where an inmate's trying to do harm to himself. They pick up the phone and they call for assistance, because it goes directly to control center, and we respond accordingly to it. But we also in our control center, while the individual is on suicide watch, there's a camera there. MR. MR. MR. : Okay. : To view -- : What specific training does staff get as it relates to the suicide 35 1 watch? 2 MR. : Once a year during our 3 annual training, we have suicide prevention 4 training. S MR. : Okay. 6 MR. During our annual training. 7 MR. : And that's required for 8 all -- 9 MR. Mi All employees. 10 MR. : What does that training 11 cover? 12 MR. : Suicide signs, prevention, 13 coping, just anything pertaining to suicide, 14 sir. Signs to look for. 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : Um -- 17 MR. : Is there any specific 18 staff that are more trained, or specifically 19 trained for this area of the prison? 20 MR. : Our Special Housing Unit 21 staff get quarterly suicide prevention 22 training. 23 MR. : Okay. Is that part of 24 something the MCC does independent, or is that 25 policy dictated? How does that --36 1 MR. : That's our policy dictates 2 that they et training. 3 MR. : Okay. That's BOP policy; 4 correct? 5 MR. Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. 7 said that any staff member 8 somebody on suicide watch? 9 MR. Mi Yes. 10 MR. : Is there any paperwork or 11 documentation for that that they have to fill 12 out? 13 MR. : No. Basically they'll tell 14 that, you know, that hey we need to place him 15 on watch, and we'll place him on watch, and 16 then we'll contact psychology. 17 : Okay. 18 To come in and talk to them. 19 : Okay. There's no referral 20 that saysi_rI_placed inmate" -- 21 MR. IIIIIII: No. Psychology will handle 22 it -- 23 MR. Okay. 24 MR. : -- here and there, in their 25 notes and their documentation that they were MR. MR. MR. When someone, you at the BOP can place EFTA00091777 37 1 placed on it, when they were placed on it. 2 MR. : So, the psychology 3 department is responsible for documenting when 4 people come in in treatment. 5 MR. 6 we call a dail 7 MR. 8 MR. 9 would annotate 10 watch also. 11 MR. : Okay. Is there any 12 specific forms or reports that get filled out 13 when some, removed from suicide watch? 14 MR. : I believe psychology would 15 do those forms and saying in their reports why 16 they were removed and if they're ready to be 17 released. 19 MR. .! I don't get the special 18 MR. : Do you get those forms? 20 medical ones. I just, with the notification 21 that, you know, with the one that email that 22 goes out -- 23 MR. Um-hum. 24 MR. El -- that the individual was : 25 released from suicide watch. : We, you know, we have what log in the -- : Um-hum. : -- institution. So, the log somebody was placed on suicide 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 MR. : Do you get notified, you just said you get notified in the email that somebody's removed or -- MR. : It's an email that the psychology department puts out stating who's on suicide watch who's been removed. MR. IIIIIIIII: Is that a daily list? Like they send it once a day, or when someone new comes on and off? How does that -- MR. MR. MR. It's a daily one. And -- : Okay. And it states who's on watch, who's, you know, who's got released, and MR. : Who does that get disseminated to? MR. It's a group. It's a group email that gets sent to all department heads, Captain, Lieutenants, everybody in the need to know. MR. : This is the supervisors within the institution? The Lieutenants, the Captain. MR. Mi (Indiscernible *00:17:07). MR. : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 MR. : And, don't quote me on that, but I need to look at the chain -- MR. : Okay. MR. -- to see who's actually on it. But -- MR. : But it's not an institution -wide email? MR. : It is kind of sent out institution wide because you have the different departments on it. So, you can say it's institution wide. MR. : Not every person in the institution ets that email, though? MR. No. I don't -- MR. : Okay. Just not an MCC all type of -- MR. No, it's not an all staff. MR. : Okay. MR. Yeah. MR. : What is the expectation of the department heads and the supervisors and the Lieutenants and Captains once they get this email? What are they supposed to do with that? MR. : I mean, it's just a notification that the individual's being 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 removed from suicide watch. So, it depends on where they're going. So, if they're going back to Special Housing Unit, so it's notification that hey, this person's been taken off. We have noboiiiii iiiich right now. MR. : Okay. Are they supposed to disseminate that? What are they supposed to do with that information? Are they supposed to tell anybiiiiiiire they -- MR. : Well, I mean when that individual is released -- : Um-hum. Wherever they're going for, to be notified by psychology that directly -- : Okay. -- to you. : Okay. So, it was just an MR. MR. they're going they're comin MR. MR. MR. MR. accountabilit MR. : Okay. MR. -- thing just to know that hey, thisiiiiiiiiis getting off of watch. MR. : So, psychology will notify whatever unit they're going back to? EFTA00091778 41 1 MR. Well, it depends where 2 you're going back to. Typically I always go to 3 Special Housin Unit down. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And typically when you do, 6 let's say an individual has tried to commit 7 suicide. It's an infraction. So, they usually 8 have an incident report that goes beyond that. 9 So, you have to come up to the Special Housing 10 Unit anyway before so that that infraction can 11 be resolved. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. El So, there are a number of 14 aspects of, you know, how. Did you go straight 15 back or go back there. 16 MR. : And this email that 17 psychology sends out with the list of who's in 18 and who's out of suicide watch -- 19 MR. n Who's on watch, yeah? 20 MR. : -- is that once a day or 21 twice a day? Is that morning and evening 22 thing? 23 MR. : It depends. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : When you come in in the 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 42 morning, they could say, you know, this is who's on watch, and then you get another one stating who's been released off of watch. MR. : Okay. Is there any policy or standard operation procedure on how (Indiscernible *00:19:21) that email gets sent out? MR. MR. MR. : How what? : How frequent that email -- No. MR. : Okay. But it should be at least once a MR. IIIIIII: That's when they send it out. I don't -- MR. : Okay. When somebody is removed from S ecial Housing -- MR. Um-hum. MR. -- and placed in suicide watch on the second floor -- MR. In Um-hum. MR. : -- is anything done to their cell in Special Housing? Is there any precautions or anything that go into that? MR. : So, typically let's say you do leave, and it depends on how much space we 1 2 3 4 7 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 43 have. We reall don't have that much space. MR. . Okay. MR. . So, usually that cell, depending on if when they were removed from the cell, if they had a cellmate. So, what happens is that individual's property is removed, and we could possibly put somebody else in that cell. MR. : Okay. MR. Um -- MR. : And again, the suicide watch versus psychological, the psyche eval that, you said that happened right away when someone first comes in the prison; correct? MR. Well I -- MR. : A psyche eval? MR. : I didn't say what you said before that. You said -- MR. A psychological eval. MR. 1111111: Okay. MR. : I want to clarify, earlier : you said that people, inmates get that when they first come into the prison; correct? MR. : Yeah. Psychologically when they initially have to come and actually 44 1 perform -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- an initial intake 4 screening. 5 MR. : Is there a level below 6 suicide watch? 7 MR. Well we also have what we 8 call a ps the observation. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. And I think the best way to 11 describe that would be it's a step-down from 12 suicide watch. For example, we might have a 13 mental health inmate that is just mentally, you 14 know, out there. So, we'll put them on psyche 15 observation. They haven't said they're going 16 to hurt themselves, but they have the potential 17 to do it. 18 Somebody might be on narcotics and acting 19 erratic and you don't know what they're on. 20 So, they might end up doing it. But it's a 21 different type of observation because it's not 22 as stringent as suicide watch. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Can you explain what that 25 means? What are the requirements when an EFTA00091779 45 1 inmate is on psyche eval, or psyche 1 2 observation? 2 3 MR. : If they're on psyche 3 4 observation, we are not necessarily putting 4 S them in a smock. You know? You can still have S 6 your regular clothing. We're just observing 6 7 your behavior and that. So, that's the 8 difference. I 8 9 MS. : And does the psychologist 9 10 stop by eiiiiiiiy? 10 11 MR. : They're treated the same way 11 12 as somebody that's on suicide watch. They're 12 13 evaluated, come up with a plan. They're ready 13 14 to be released. Keep them on, more along those 14 15 lines. 15 16 MS. : Well is someone on psyche 16 17 evaluation, do they have an inmate companion 17 18 watching them? 18 19 MR. : Psyche obs also has an 19 20 inmate companion. So, anybody in that area has 20 21 an inmateliiiiiiiii them. 21 22 MR. : As the Warden, do you have 22 23 any input on the determinate if someone's in 23 24 psychological observation, in suicide watch or 24 25 observation status? Do you have any input on 25 46 that? MR. : I don't overrule medical decisions. I'm not a doctor. MR. : Um-hum. MR. If they come to me and say this is warranted whether it's medical care or not, I don't -- MR. : Okay. MS. : But you're briefed on it? MR. I'm briefed on it. Yes. MS. : Is that orally? MR. : Orally they'll come and say, well we'll discuss an inmate saying, hey, he has mental issues. I feel that they need to be placed here or there. And I'm going with your evaluation. I'm not going to, and I have good psychologists. So, I trust their judgment. MS. : Can an inmate be taken off of suicide watch by Dr. or her staff without consulting you? MR. : They can. The doctor decides who's coming off of watch. So, they can make the determination and, you know, they send up to the Associate Warden, the Captain, and it will come to release and if they're 47 1 going off it. So, it doesn't -- 2 MS. But do they -- 3 MR. W I -- have to necessarily, it's 4 not my S MS. : Do they typically consult 6 you when that happens? 7 MR. : Depending on, you know, if 8 it's the case, you know? Who it is, you might 9 be, like I said, a high profile individual they 10 would say, "Hey, we're taking him off of watch. 11 We're doing this." So, we'll be following the 12 plan closiiiiiiiii- 13 MR. : When it comes to Epstein, 14 Jeffrey E stein -- 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : -- he was in the mental 17 health program. Can you just tell us your 18 understanding of his involvement with the 19 psychologist at MCC? 20 MR. : Um, let me back-track. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. : It's not a mental health 23 program. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. .! Um --48 1 MR. Sorry. 2 MR. Mr Being, I guess, : 3 psycholog 4 MR. Sure. 5 MR. -- they're following him. 6 He was on their case. 7 MR. Okay. 8 MR. And you want 9 knew about it 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Again, he was under their 12 care. They were evaluating him, and, you know, 13 going through their protocol to determine why 14 he was on watch. If he was on suicide watch, 15 can he come off of suicide watch? Was he 16 suicidal? Thins that. 17 MR. : At any time, were you 18 aware or notified of him being suicidal or 19 having an suicidal ideations or attempts? 20 MR. : Well we had an incident 21 where he was in the cell with Tartaglione -- 22 MR. Okay. 23 MR. MI -- that it might've been a : 24 suicide attempt and it might not have been a 25 suicide attempt. So, we followed the protocols reviewed by to know what I EFTA00091780 49 1 and put him on watch. There was also an 2 internal investigation where he was interviewed 3 and his cellmate was interviewed, and he 4 basically denied Indiscernible *00:25:35). MR. : When you say "he denied", 6 Tartaglione -- 7 MR. : He said -- 8 MR. : -- or Epstein? 9 MR. : No, Epstein stated that, 10 "Hey, I didn't try to kill myself." And then 11 Tartaglione said that he was sitting in the 12 cell. He thought he was having a heart attack. 13 So, I forget the words psychology used to 14 determine what their conclusion was as far as 15 the actual act. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Did you review the 18 incident iiiiiiifor the suicide attempt? 19 MR. : I reviewed the investigative 20 report that the Lieutenant interviewed both of 21 them, took their statements, and all that 22 because the review process goes from, the 23 Lieutenant initiates it. It goes to the 24 Captain, Associate Warden, and myself. And 25 then I, uh, sign off on it. si 1 in there pending investigations. Cellphone 2 introduction. Drug introduction. So, that 3 goes through the investigative process, and 4 then we have, you know, we also have our SAMs S (phonetic sp.) inmates that are housed in 6 there. 7 So, we basically discuss and talk about 8 every inmate. 9 MS. : And who attends these 10 meetings? 11 MR. : Myself, all the Associate 12 Wardens, the Unit Managers, psychology, the 13 Captain, the SHU Lieutenant, the Investigative 14 Lieutenant. So, we just have everyone there 15 that's involved in the -- 16 MS. : And what's your 17 understanding of whether the SHU Lieutenant or 18 the Captain brief out the duty Officers in the 19 SHU about the outcome of that SHU meeting every 20 week. 21 MR. : I don't understand what you 22 mean. 23 MS. : So, do you have an 24 understanding of whether, because the duty 25 Officers are not present in the SHU meeting; 50 1 MS. : Did you speak with Dr. 2 after she had consulted with Mr. Epstein 3 when he was laced on suicide watch? 4 MR. : Um, yes. We have SHU 5 meetings, and we have it once a week, and 6 Epstein was brought up, and she talked about 7 Mr. Epstein. 8 MS. 9 MR. 10 MS. 11 the SHU thin 12 MR. 13 MS. 14 MR. 15 MS. 16 meetings? 17 MR. It's a list where we go 18 around and we talk about every inmate. We have 19 inmates that are in there for infractions, 20 criminal issues, from your office, a high- 21 profile guy might come in. So, we just talk 22 about, okay, what's the status. If we call in 23 a disciplinary citation, that means they've 24 been sanctioned and they're doing time, and 25 then we look at the release date. We have some After the suicide attempt? Yes. : What day of the week is pically? It's Thursdays. : All right and -- Right. -- what happens at the SHU 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 52 correct? MR. No. MS. : Do you have an understanding of how, for instance, if you tell the Lieutenant, I want this done in the SHU, will the Lieutenant then tell his duty Officers after the meeting? MR. : Well, the duty officer is supposed to make rounds throughout the institution when they're on duty to observe and report if anything is not right. And then if we have incidents, they make notifications, you know, to the region. MS. MR. fight. MS. MR. : Or maybe like you said, a suicide attempt. So, they have to contact the Regional Duty Officer. That's their notification. They make the Regional Duty Officer, and then it moves up the chain that way, and then I have to make my notifications, which I make my notifications to the Regional Director. : To the region? To, like let's say we have a : Um-hum. EFTA00091781 53 1 MS. : Okay. And my question is, 2 does any information, do you have an 3 understanding of whether any information that's 4 conveyed in these SHU meetings gets briefed S down to the line Officers who are responsible 6 for patrollin the SHU? 7 MR. • Right. 8 MS. : It does? 9 MR. • Yeah. The SHU Lieutenant is 10 there, and he's in the meeting, he or she is in 11 the meeting, and they're talking to their staff 12 on what needs to be done or the status, you 13 know. We're going in and we determine if 14 somebody can be released, then that will be 15 conveyed back that hey, an individual can be 16 released. 17 MS. : So, you were saying that 18 after the July 23rd suicide attempt, there was a 19 Thursday SHU meeting? 20 21 MR. Mi Right. MS. : In which Dr. 22 discussed at least her initial observations of 23 Mr. Epstein? 24 MR. : Well, she would initially 25 discuss it there, but she would also initially, 55 1 Monday. I have to check, did I take a extra 2 day or not? I'm not sure, but the 29th, I 3 should've s_i_hallve been back. 4 MS. IIIIIIIII: So, that Thursday meeting S which looks like would've been August 1st, you 6 were present at? 7 MR. Yes. 8 MS. : And what was discussed 9 during the SHU meeting? 10 MR. : The SHU meeting, we'll 11 discuss every inmate. Every inmate on the 12 list, what's their status? Updates and all 13 that stuff. 14 MS. : Okay. And specifically 15 with respect to Epstein, what was discussed? 16 MR. : I don't recall specifically. 17 I know we would've talked about him. We 18 would've probably talked about, you know, his 19 psychological status and I got to remember on 20 the first, he was probably back in the Special 21 Housing Unit. So, we were probably, you know, 22 talking about his housing conditions, what's he 23 doing, and usually the conversation was during 24 the day he was down at the attorney visits, you 25 know? 54 1 whoever, you know, if the Warden is there, 2 initiate it to the AW. So, that would be 3 something immediate that she would say, hey, 4 he's on watch and this happened. S MS. : And what happened at that 6 first SHU meeting after the suicide attempt? 7 MR. : The week of July 22nd to the 8 26th, I was on leave. 9 MS. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, I was, you know, I was 11 getting called. So, I don't know the 12 specifics, but I was aware of, you know, I got 13 called that hey, there was an attempt and the 14 protocols were followed. 15 MS. : Okay. 16 MR. : Notifications were made. 17 MS. : Okay. So, the following 18 week which I think is the week of the 29th. 19 MR. The 29th or the 30th, yeah. 20 MS. : You were back in the 21 office? 22 MR. : That Monday. So, if you 23 have a calendar. I can look at it. 24 MS. : I think it's the 29th -- 25 MR. So, yeah. So, the 29th is a 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 And then there were certain exams that we had to do that we wanted to get done on him. And then we discussed that. MR. El Physicals and then, you MS. Uh, what kind of exams? : know, and I don't know if that was before or after his sleep apnea machine that he was, you know, re uestin . MS. : Um-hum. MR. : Because typically, you know, you have to go through the fitting and the process, but, you know, we allowed that one to come in. We checked it, security wise, and said it was fine to come in, and we got it. So, I think we might have been discussing that, more along those lines. But we discuss every inmate in there. I don't specifically remember it. I know we would've talked about what the issues were pertainin to him. MS. MR. MS. MR. MS. : Um, let's go back to -- : Um-hum. • -- the suicide attempt. Okay. : You said that you were on EFTA00091782 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 leave that week, but you were notified by your Associate Warden? MR. : Associate Warden, yes. MS. : Okay. Were you receiving daily updates? MR. : Not, I mean, they called me during the day the first time that it happened. Hey, this is what happened. He's on watch. And then the next day, you know, he was still on watch. So, there was really no, I didn't need that much updates because we knew he was on watch. MS. : Okay. MR. Um -- MS. : And you notified your Regional Director? MR. : I notified my Regional Director. And then while I was on leave, my Regional Director was also in contact with my acting AW. MS. MR. MS. : Did the -- Acting Warden, I'm sorry. : Did the Regional Director convey any directions to your AW during that time? 58 1 MR. : I believe just the basics, 2 you know. Keep him updated what's going on 3 because at the time he was under psychology's 4 care. S MS. . Um-hum. 6 MR. : So, once they're in that, 7 there's really not that much input to go on 8 because thgy:ELlig watch. 9 MS. And then Epstein was 10 downgraded from suicide watch to psyche 11 observation. 12 MR. : Psyche observation. 13 MS. : While he was still on the 14 second floor? 15 MR. Yes. 16 MS. 17 change? 18 MR. : Yes, that he was on psyche 19 obs. 20 MS. Okay. And did you discuss 21 that with Dr. at all? 22 MR. : Yeah. We talked about it. 23 Again, it was, you know, him going back up to 24 the Special Housing Unit. Although he wasn't 25 suicidal, it was just a matter of, okay, who : Were you notified of that 59 1 are we goin to house him with? 2 MS. : Um-hum. 3 MR. : You know, coming to that 4 decision and then that would give her more time S to work with him if she needed. 6 MS. : inaL Did you have a 7 discussion with Dr. 'I'll' about whether she 8 felt he was still suicidal? 9 MR. : Again, if the psychologist 10 tells me that he's ready and he goes, I don't 11 question medical judgment. I trust her 12 judgement. If she says he's not suicidal and 13 he's ready to go back, then we trust her 14 judgment. 15 MS. : And she did -- 16 MR. : Because she -- 17 MS. -- tell you that? 18 MR. : She said he was ready to go 19 back. He hasn't suicidal and that he was ready 20 to go back. 21 MS. Did you review any of her 22 reports or the sychologist's reports -- 23 MR. I don't -- 24 MS. -- during the time he was 25 on the second floor? 60 1 MR. 2 medical files. 3 MS. : And he came 4 SHU on the 30th is that right? S Uh, yes. 6 : Okay. 7 : Um-hum. 8 : And what discussions did 9 you have, let's start with Dr. , about 10 the conditions of his confinement in the SHU? 11 MR. : She just said to get him in, 12 you know, we're going to put him, get him a 13 cellmate because typically every inma