4 DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 2 3 4 DIGITALLY RECORDED 5 SWORN STATEMENT 6 OF 7 8 9 OIG CASE #: 10 2019-010614 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 19 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 20 AUGUST 12, 2019 21 22 23 24 25 FENTON TRANSCRIPTION 28720 Roadside Drive, Suite 250 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 991-8002 EFTA00125466 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 APPEARANCES: 2 3 OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL 4 BY: 5 BY: 6 7 8 WITNESS: 9 10 11 12 OTHER APPEARANCES: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EFTA00125467 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 3 1 MR. : Today is Monday, August 2 12. The following will be a voluntary 3 interview of BOP Warden in 4 furtherance of OIG investigation to be 5 determined, for the purpose of transcription, 6 will now identify all present in the interview. 7 I'll ask everyone to say and spell their last 8 name, as well as identify their working title 9 and employer. 10 I am Special Agent 11 , Office of the Inspector General. 12 MR. III: Special Agent Antonio III, III- 13 I, with the FBI. 14 MR. -: Warden, 15 Federal Bureau of Prisons. Spelling of the 16 name is first name is last name is 17 18 19 MR. : Thank you. Warden 20 21 MR. : Um-hum. 22 MR. : -- you have reviewed and 23 signed Department of Justice OIG Form 226-2 24 which is Warnings and Assurances of Employees 25 Request to Provide Information on a Voluntary EFTA00125468 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 4 1 Basis. Do you have any questions about this 2 form? 3 MR. : No. 4 MR. : Would you like time to 5 review it with an attorney, or would you like 6 an attorney here? 7 MR. : For now, I don't need an 8 attorney. 9 MR. : Okay. Are you currently 10 under the influence of any substances, or is 11 there any reason to prevent you from fully 12 understanding my questions and answering 13 truthfully today? 14 MR. : No. 15 MR. : I'll now swear you to the 16 statements you're about to make. Please raise 17 your hand and repeat after me. 18 19 MR. : I, 20 MR. : Hereby solemnly swear or 21 affirm. 22 MR. : Hereby solemnly swear or 23 affirm. 24 MR. : That the statements that 25 I'm about to make. EFTA00125469 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : That the statements I'm 2 about to make. 3 MR. : Shall be the truth and the 4 whole truth. 5 MR. : Shall be the truth and the 6 whole truth. 7 MR. : Thank you, sir. 8 MR. : Um-hum. 9 MR. : Warden would you mind 10 telling us a little bit about your career with 11 BOP? When you started, how you became a 12 Warden? 13 MR. : Uh -- 14 MR. : How you moved up the 15 ranks. 16 MR. : I started out as a 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. : Great. How long have you EFTA00125470 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 6 1 been the Warden? 2 MR. : I've been here since May of 3 2018. 4 MR. : Okay, great. Just, your 5 role, you've done a lot of internal 6 investigations with the prison and you've 7 worked with the Department of Justice for 8 MR. : Um-hum. 9 MR. : -- moving forward, just as 10 a note for the record, you're aware that 11 failure to be honest with us today would be 12 considered a criminal offense; correct? 13 MR. : Yes. 14 MR. : Okay, great. Let's talk a 15 little bit about some overall policies at the 16 prison to start with. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : So, actually let me back 19 up. We're here today to talk about, 20 specifically Jeffrey Epstein. 21 MR. : Um-hum. 22 MR. : The inmate. 23 MR. : Um-hum. 24 MR. : Would you mind just 25 telling us a little bit about when, your EFTA00125471 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 7 1 understanding of when he arrived and that type 2 of, when he arrived, how he was placed, where 3 he was placed, and the reasons behind that? 4 MR. : I don't remember the 5 specific date he arrived, but we didn't, what 6 happened was, we weren't told that he was going 7 to be coming to the institution. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : When he initially came, he 10 was dropped off on the weekend, and we didn't 11 find out until Monday, myself, that he had been 12 placed at the institution. And from then on, 13 we, you know, went through the whole process of 14 the screening, his medical stuff. Just normal 15 procedures that we follow and (Indiscernible 16 *00:04:04) . 17 MR. : Okay. Now when you say 18 "he was dropped off over the weekend", when 19 somebody arrives at the facility, what's the 20 normal -- 21 MR. : I mean typically if 22 somebody's that high profile -- 23 MR. : Um-hum. 24 MR. : -- we should've been 25 notified and said hey, he's coming in. We EFTA00125472 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 weren't. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : You know, I mean, we saw it 4 on the news, but it didn't say. They just said 5 they had him in custody, but we didn't get any 6 formal, I didn't get any formal notice that he 7 had been brought into the institution. 8 So, he was dropped off, and you know, the 9 Lieutenant on shift processed him in and 10 brought him into the institution. We didn't 11 find out or realize it until Monday. 12 MR. : So, it was Monday that you 13 first were officially made aware of it? 14 MR. : That I was made aware. You 15 know, we found out, and I don't remember if it 16 was from looking at the news reports, we put it 17 together that he had been brought into the 18 institution. We went through our Monday 19 morning meeting that we went through. So, 20 that's when -- 21 MR. : When he first arrived, was 22 he placed in general population? Do you know 23 where he was placed? 24 MR. : I don't recall where he was 25 placed when he came in. EFTA00125473 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : At some point, he was 2 placed in Special Housing Unit? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Known as the SHU. 5 MR. : Right. 6 MR. : how did he end up there? 7 MR. : Well, he was a new 8 commitment. He was high profile. So, we 9 placed him in the Special Housing Unit so we 10 can further evaluate, you know, his status. Is 11 he ready for general population? And we do 12 that with all inmates, but -- 13 MR. : Okay. 14 MR. : -- and then to see, okay, 15 any separation issues. Any threats to him, 16 before we put him out there in general 17 population. 18 MR. : Was he ever in genera] 19 population? 20 MR. : I don't recall. I don't, 21 I'm not sure if it might've been the first day 22 when he came in. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : But I'm not sure, so I mean, 25 I would have to look at the 37 to confirm. EFTA00125474 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 10 1 MR. : But as far as you know, 2 that Monday, the first business day after the 3 weekend he was initially dropped off. 4 MR. : Right. 5 MR. : From that point forward, 6 was he ever in general population? 7 MR. : No. 8 MR. : Okay. What are the 9 policies in terms of, or is there policy that 10 dictates when somebody goes into general 11 population from the SHU after the first 12 arrival? 13 MR. : Well, what we do is we 14 evaluate the individual to see if they're ready 15 for general population, if they can hang, you 16 know -- 17 MR. : Um-hum. 18 MR. : -- if they can populate. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : And it's a number of 21 factors. It depends. I mean, if I have a gang 22 member coming in, I'm taking into consideration 23 separation issues on it. If it's, you know, 24 somebody that might've been fraud or bank 25 fraud, then we determine if it's any issues of EFTA00125475 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 11 1 them going into the general population. So, 2 it's a case-by-case basis on how we determine 3 it. 4 MR. : Okay. What are the 5 policies in terms of when you're notified if 6 someone enters Special Housing Unit or is 7 discharged from Special Housing Unit? 8 MR. : Well what it is is, it's 9 routed the individual, it's called a Release 10 Form. So, several people sign it. They review 11 it. I believe psychology, CMC, the Captain, 12 and it goes to the Associate Warden and then 13 they sign what we call is a Kick-Out. Meaning 14 everybody's reviewed it and said, okay, this 15 person is appropriate for general population. 16 MR. : Okay. For Mr. Epstein, 17 after that, he was never put in general 18 population; correct? 19 MR. : No. 20 MR. : Was the determination to 21 keep him in Special Housing? What was the 22 communication that goes on there? 23 MR. : Well we, now initially when 24 he came in, it's the goal to determine, okay, 25 can they go to general population. EFTA00125476 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 12 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, between evaluating him, 3 at the same time, we're looking at saying, 4 okay, can he go to general population. 5 MR. : Um-hum. 6 MR. : So, it's a dual role that 7 we're going to -- 8 MR. : Sure. 9 MR. : But I had gotten word, and I 10 don't recall the date, where from my Regional 11 Director which stated he's not to go to general 12 population until further notice. 13 MR. : The Regional Director, 14 where is that in the chain of command for BOP? 15 MR. : We have five regional 16 offices. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : Each region has a Regional 19 Director. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : This is the Northeast 22 Region. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : Where we have 21 25 institutions. So, he supervises and is in EFTA00125477 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 charge of the 21 institutions. 2 MR. : Okay. So, is he 3 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:08:37). 4 MR. : -- your direct supervisor? 5 MR. : He's my director supervisor. 6 MR. : Okay. Who is that? 7 MR. -: (phonetic sp.). 8 MR. 9 MR. : Yeah. 10 MR. : And Mr. told you, 11 do you recall if it was verbally or an email? 12 Phone call? 13 MR. : We had talked about it, too, 14 but I would have to check if there was an email 15 to go with it. But we did talk and said, hey, 16 we're going to hold off on putting him out in 17 general population. 18 MR. : Okay. Do you recall when 19 you officially were, you and Mr. , spoke 20 about this? 21 MR. : I don't want to give you the 22 wrong date. But it was within that, you know, 23 maybe a couple weeks after he arrived. 24 MR. : Okay. So, it was a few 25 weeks after he arrived -- EFTA00125478 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Right. 2 MR. : Okay. After Mr. 3 told you to keep him, or it was agreed upon 4 MR. : Um-hum. 5 MR. : -- to keep him in Special 6 Housing Unit. 7 MR. : Right. 8 MR. : Who did you notify that he 9 was to stay in the Special Housing Unit? How 10 does that communication -- 11 MR. : So, what it does is I get my 12 exec staff together -- 13 MR. : Um-hum. 14 MR. : -- which is my Associate 15 Wardens, the Captain, my exec, and we have our 16 meetings, and I tell them he's not, you know, 17 lay out the specific instructions. He's not to 18 go out to general population. And -- 19 MR. : Were there, sorry. 20 MR. : Go ahead. 21 MR. : No. 22 MR. : And that's basically how we 23 start. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Yeah. EFTA00125479 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Were there any other 2 specific directions or instructions given to 3 the staff regarding him? 4 MR. : Well, so at the time of him 5 staying in there, we had to find him initially 6 a roommate. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : So, and it's hard especially 9 in Special Housing Unit when you've got gang 10 members in there that are not appropriate to be 11 housed with. So, we came up with, I came up 12 with , who was in there. White 13 male, probably be able to cope with him. And 14 that's typically how we, you know, that's part 15 of the evaluation process. 16 MR. : Is it standard for inmates 17 in Special Housing Unit to have cellmates? 18 MR. : We typically would like for 19 them to have it. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : But certain situations 22 dictate that they can. If an inmate's a total 23 separation from a group, and we get word from 24 US Attorney's office or the arresting agents 25 that, hey, he's to be totally separated, then EFTA00125480 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 16 1 they would be housed by themselves. They could 2 have an incident in the institution, you know, 3 for example our gang members, somebody has an 4 issue, and for example, the Bloods, then we 5 have to say hey, let's separate him from there. 6 You know? 7 MR. : Was there any directions 8 specifically that Mr. Epstein was to have a 9 cellmate at all times? 10 MR. : From psychology when 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : -- said hey, that he's 13 required, he needs to have a cellmate at all 14 times. 15 MR. : Okay. And that occurred 16 later on? When he first arrived, there was no 17 specific directions regarding that; correct? 18 MR. : No, it wasn't. 19 MR. : Okay. 20 MR. : Wait, let me. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. : You mean when he first came 23 in were we talking about him having a cellmate? 24 MR. : Initially. 25 MR. : I don't recall any talks EFTA00125481 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 about him. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : Initially, and trying to 4 figure out when he first came in, how he was 5 housed. I don't recall how he was housed when 6 he first came in, but -- 7 MR. : Okay. The MCC is no 8 stranger to high profile 9 MR. : Right. 10 MR. : -- inmates. Generally 11 speaking, how do you normally, or generally 12 handle these type of high profile inmates? Any 13 other special considerations or concerns. How 14 does this work? 15 MR. : Again, you come in. We 16 evaluate him to determine, okay, if they can go 17 out to general population or not. We've had, 18 you know, we've had a bunch that come in that 19 were able to go out. We had (phonetic 20 sp.), you know, the phone that, I don't know if 21 you recall, the one that 22 23 MR. III: (Indiscernible *00:12:41) . 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Him. So, when he first came EFTA00125482 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 in, you know, he was high profile. So, we 2 brought him in to determine 3 FEMALE VOICE: Excuse me. 4 MR. : Yeah. 5 FEMALE VOICE: Can you guys step out here 6 for just a moment? 7 MR. : We, pausing the interview 8 at 10:55 a.m. (tape paused) . 9 We're resuming the interview with Warden 10 11 MR. -: 12 MR. 13 MR. : Yeah. 14 MR. (Indiscernible *00:00:14) 15 The time is now 10:56. Joining the interview 16 room is Assisting United States Attorney from 17 the Southern District of New York, 18 19 MS. 20 MR. , I apologize. 21 Can you spell your name for transcription 22 purposes? 23 MS. : Sure. 24 Thanks. 25 MR. : Thank you. Before we were EFTA00125483 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 just going over some of the overall high- 2 profile inmates and the general -- 3 MR. : Um-hum. 4 MR. : -- evaluation of them. 5 Going back to, you said earlier that a few 6 weeks had occurred. You and the Regional 7 Director discussed keeping Epstein in the 8 Special Housing Unit. 9 MR. : Um-hum. 10 MR. : How often was the Regional 11 Director being briefed on Epstein? 12 MR. : I guess the situation 13 dictated it. If something happened, then we'd 14 notify him, or he needed some questions for 15 him, he would call me. But I don't want to, 16 don't recall the specific amount of times. - 17 we were in contact. 18 MS. : Um-hum. 19 MR. : Frequent contact. 20 MR. : Okay. How often were you, 21 are you notified differently of high-profile 22 inmates or how often were you being aware or 23 notified of Epstein's housing situation? 24 MR. : Well, I mean, he was in the 25 Special Housing Unit. So, I knew where he was. EFTA00125484 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 20 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : So, it wasn't like I had to 3 be updated as to where he was. I knew where he 4 was. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : I mean, I knew that he went 7 on his attorney visits, spent the whole day 8 there. Would be the first one in, last one 9 out. So, I mean, that's what I knew. And then 10 I kind of (Indiscernible *00:02:06) with the 11 attorneys. I had some outside attorneys 12 complain about, you know, they were taking up 13 the attorney room. So, I knew that was, you 14 know, those issues were coming up with the 15 attorney room. 16 MR. : Okay. Going back to 17 general policies at the -- 18 MR. : Um-hum. 19 MR. : -- within the BOP, 20 actually when Epstein arrive -- 21 MR. : Um-hum. 22 MR. : I think we already 23 covered this, but just to, were any special 24 arrangements or considerations given to him? 25 MR. : As far as -- EFTA00125485 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 21 1 MR. : Obviously you said earlier 2 he was put in the SHU on Monday. 3 MR. : Right. 4 MR. : After, was it, at that 5 point, was there any issues that you're aware 6 of regarding him? Anything that you needed to 7 be aware of other than just who he was? 8 MR. : No. Just who he was and the 9 basic screening. The intake screening. 10 MR. : Okay. At the time he 11 first arrived, did you have any, was there any 12 notification of any mental health concerns? 13 MR. : No, not that I know of. 14 MR. : Okay. How 15 MR. : Are you talking about the 16 weekend he came in, or 17 MR. : Yeah. 18 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:03:19) . 19 MR. : First arrival. 20 MR. : That weekend, I don't know. 21 But I know afterwards, he was medically 22 assessed and they were, you know, our health 23 service department assessed him and he, I think 24 he might have told him that he had certain 25 medications. EFTA00125486 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. When -- 2 MR. : -- that he was taking. 3 MR. : When inmates come into the 4 MCC, are they all screened for mental health 5 issues or medical issues? 6 MR. : Well, yes. They come in, 7 you're screened for your medical. The unit 8 team screens you and psychology screens you. 9 But -- 10 MR. : What timeframe does that 11 occur? 12 MR. : Typically like with him, he 13 came in on the weekend. So, it depends if 14 there was a psychologist. Maybe the next day 15 someone would go screen him, the on-call 16 psychologist. But, you know, or Monday if 17 someone came in. But typically the on-call 18 psychologist is there through the weekend and 19 will screen them. 20 MR. : Who is notified of the 21 results of those screenings? 22 MR. : of? 23 MR. : Of the medical screen and 24 psychological screenings, who gets notified of 25 that? EFTA00125487 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 23 1 MR. : As far as what? If they 2 find something in there? 3 MR. : Yes. 4 MR. : Like what would be an 5 example? I mean 6 MR. : Any medical concerns that 7 people need to be aware of. Any psychological 8 issues. How does that information get 9 disseminated? 10 MR. : Because when we talk about 11 medical issues, some of that falls under 12 privacy issues. 13 MR. : Um-hum. 14 MR. : So, you know, it's not going 15 to be divulged as to -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- just like that. 18 MR. : Sure. 19 MR. : But as far as psychological, 20 if it was something that psychologists did an 21 interview and said, hey, there's a mental 22 health issue or something, then she would, you 23 know, she would let her Associate Warden know. 24 She would let me know that, hey, there's some 25 issues. EFTA00125488 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 24 1 MR. : Okay. And when he first 2 arrived, were you made aware of any medical or 3 mental issues regarding him? 4 MR. : Mental health, I don't 5 recall any mental health. But I was told that 6 he was on certain medications or whatever. But 7 it was general. It wasn't 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : -- anything major. 10 MR. : Okay. And just, and 11 that's a general policy for all inmates that 12 arrive? 13 MR. : The screening, yeah. 14 MR. : Just the medical 15 screening. They all get that? 16 MR. : Right. 17 MR. : Is there any, as a result 18 of those screenings, is there any, does it have 19 any bearing on where they're placed, whether 20 it's special housing or general population? 21 MR. : I mean typically if you do, 22 like I said, if you do an intake screening and 23 the individual comes in and they have no 24 issues, no separation issues, and, you know, 25 then they can populate like anyone else. But EFTA00125489 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 if there are issues with them going out in 2 general population; i.e., safety issues, then 3 you would be placed in the Special Housing. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : Until we could further 6 evaluate if you could go to general population. 7 MR. : If someone during the 8 mental health screening, the mental health, the 9 psychologist deemed them to be suicidal -- 10 MR. : Okay. 11 MR. : -- what are the suicidal 12 watch policies as it relates to that? 13 MR. : So, if the psychologist was 14 to say, hey, they're suicidal, then they would 15 be placed on suicide watch. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : Now if the psychologist is 18 not there and someone exhibits suicidal 19 ideations or statements or thoughts, then 20 they're placed on suicide watch. 21 MR. : Can you explain to me what 22 suicide watch is, where it is in the MCC -- 23 MR. : It's on the second floor of 24 the institution, on the same floor of the 25 hospital. EFTA00125490 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 26 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : And it's a cell, and if you 3 go on suicide watch, you're placed in a smock. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : That covers you and then 6 you're watched for 24 hours. 7 MR. : Now the smock, is that 8 made of paper, or -- 9 MR. : It's cloth. 10 MR. : Cloth? 11 MR. : It's like, you ever see 12 those movies where they have those heavy bomb 13 vests? 14 MR. : Uh -- 15 MR. : It's something, I mean, I 16 don't want to you know, say, but it's something 17 like that. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : And it just hangs. 20 MR. : Sure. 21 MR. : Hangs on them just like 22 that. So -- 23 MR. : And you said they're 24 monitored for 24 hours. How are they, is it -- 25 MR. : There's a companion sitting EFTA00125491 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 there. An inmate. 2 MR. : In the cell? 3 MR. : No. Outside the cell. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : It's a cell where you sit 6 and observe. 7 MR. : Okay. Is the companion 8 another inmate or a staff? 9 MR. : No, it's a trained inmate 10 companion. Now, we have four cells. If those 11 cells get full, then we have to move them up to 12 the Special Housing Unit and then put a staff 13 watch on them. 14 MR. : Okay. What policies are 15 in place for suicide watch as it relates to 16 staff response, notification, how people get 17 notified, if they're moving from suicide watch 18 to off suicide watch. How does that work? 19 MR. : That works through 20 psychology. 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : Psychology evaluates and 23 they'll say, okay, we've evaluated him and, you 24 know, wherever we're going, typically you 25 always usually go from the Special Housing Unit EFTA00125492 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 28 1 to suicide. So, they'd say, okay you know 2 what, they're ready to go back up. 3 MR. : Okay. What role, how does 4 the program, is the psychologist the program 5 coordinator? 6 MR. : The chief psychologist runs 7 the department. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : And then she has various 10 psychologists that work under her. 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : And then evaluate because we 13 have a different mission as far as we have a 14 forensic mission. So, we get a lot of forensic 15 studies in the institution. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : And then we have a regular 18 psychologist also that handles the inmate 19 population but they work together and they 20 handle everything. 21 MR. : Okay. Who's ultimately 22 responsible for placing somebody on suicide 23 watch or off suicide watch? 24 MR. : Well placing it, a staff 25 member comes and says hey, this guy is EFTA00125493 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 29 1 suicidal. You can place him on suicide watch. 2 MR. : Okay. Anybody in the 3 institution can do that? 4 MR. : Yeah. If I come upon an 5 inmate that's saying, "Hey, I'm going to kill 6 myself." Okay, we get him on suicide watch. 7 Psychology comes and, you know, evaluates them 8 and then comes up with a plan. 9 MR. : Within the psychology 10 department -- 11 MR. : Um-hum. 12 MR. : -- or the medical 13 department there in mental health, who there 14 ultimately makes that decision? 15 MR. : I believe, and don't quote 16 me on this. I believe the psychologists. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : You know, they're trained 19 professionals. So, they can make a decision 20 and they consult with the Chief in, you know, 21 determining okay what's the plan of action to 22 move forward. 23 MR. : And are you, when 24 someone's placed in suicide watch, are you 25 notified of that? EFTA00125494 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 30 1 MR. : Yeah. They send out a form 2 every day stating like who's on suicide watch, 3 who's on psyche observation. So -- 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : -- we're aware of who it is 6 and then they'll send out a form if there's no 7 one on there. 8 MR. : You said earlier that 9 while on suicide watch, there was an observer. 10 MR. : Right. 11 MR. : How does an inmate become 12 an observer? 13 MR. : It's an inmate companion. 14 MR. : A companion, I'm sorry. 15 MR. : So, it's a trained program. 16 So, they have to go through training. They 17 have to take courses, and then they become 18 eligible to become a companion. 19 MR. : Who authorizes the use of 20 an inmate companion? 21 MR. : The psychology department 22 runs that. So -- 23 MR. : Do you have any input as 24 the Warden in selecting or training or 25 implementing the inmate companion program? EFTA00125495 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : No. 2 MR. : Does every institution 3 have an inmate companion program? 4 MR. : Yes. 5 MS. : Who's the Chief 6 Psychologist? 7 MR. -: (phonetic 8 sp.). 9 MR. : And Ms. is the one 10 who is ultimately responsible for determining 11 if someone is on suicide watch and removing 12 them; correct? 13 MR. : Well in conjunction with our 14 staff. 15 MR. : Okay. 16 MR. : Because you could be, a 17 psychologist is assigned to the individual when 18 they're working a plan with them. And if they 19 come to the determination that hey, you know 20 what, they no longer need to be on suicide 21 watch. 22 MR. : Okay. But as the clinical 23 director, she's ultimately responsible. 24 MR. : She's not the clinical. 25 She's the Chief Psychologist. EFTA00125496 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 MR. : Okay. 2 MR. : Clinical Director is a 3 separate position. 4 MR. : Okay. I apologize for 5 that. 6 MR. : That's fine. 7 MR. : Thank you for clarifying. 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MR. : Who in the medical staff, 10 just for my clarification, who in the medical 11 staff is ultimately responsible for removing 12 somebody from suicide watch? 13 MR. : The psychology department 14 determines to remove somebody from -- 15 MR. : So, who in the psychology 16 department? 17 MR. : Again, it depends on who's 18 evaluating the inmate. 19 MR. : Okay. So -- 20 MR. : And so we have one, two, 21 three, really we have, (Indiscernible 22 *00:12:26) , uh, four. We have four 23 psychologists on staff. 24 MR. : You have four 25 psychologists on staff. And any one of those EFTA00125497 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 four can remove somebody? 2 MR. : Can remove somebody. 3 MR. : Do those four have, who's 4 those four supervisors? 5 MR. : Dr. 6 MR. : Dr. 7 MR. : Yeah. 8 MR. : What authority does she 9 have to overrule them? 10 MR. : And I'm not a psychologist 11 12 MR. : Sure. 13 MR. : -- to know what procedures 14 they use -- 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : -- or what conversation they 17 have to determine if she's going to overrule 18 them. I mean, she's the supervisor, and it's 19 just like with any, you know, profession you 20 have. 21 MR. : Right. 22 MR. : If I come up with some 23 reasoning -- 24 MR. : Um-hum. 25 MR. : In saying hey, I don't agree EFTA00125498 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 34 1 with your decision, then we debate it and then 2 we ultimately come to a decision. 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : As to yay or nay. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : So, it's kind of the same 7 thing. 8 MR. : While on suicide watch, 9 you said there's a 24-hour companion. What 10 does staff do for the inmates while they're on 11 suicide watch? 12 MR. : Well we have a camera, well 13 they're trained to, there's a phone there. So, 14 let's say something happened where an inmate's 15 trying to do harm to himself. They pick up the 16 phone and they call for assistance, because it 17 goes directly to control center, and we respond 18 accordingly to it. 19 But we also in our control center, while 20 the individual is on suicide watch, there's a 21 camera there. 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : To view 24 MR. : What specific training 25 does staff get as it relates to the suicide EFTA00125499 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 watch? 2 MR. : Once a year during our 3 annual training, we have suicide prevention 4 training. 5 MR. : Okay. 6 MR. : During our annual training. 7 MR. : And that's required for 8 all -- 9 MR. : All employees. 10 MR. : What does that training 11 cover? 12 MR. : Suicide signs, prevention, 13 coping, just anything pertaining to suicide, 14 sir. Signs to look for. 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : Um -- 17 MR. : Is there any specific 18 staff that are more trained, or specifically 19 trained for this area of the prison? 20 MR. : Our Special Housing Unit 21 staff get quarterly suicide prevention 22 training. 23 MR. : Okay. Is that part of 24 something the MCC does independent, or is that 25 policy dictated? How does that -- EFTA00125500 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 36 1 MR. : That's our policy dictates 2 that they get quarterly training. 3 MR. : Okay. That's BOP policy; 4 correct? 5 MR. : Yes. 6 MR. : Okay. When someone, you 7 said that any staff member at the BOP can place 8 somebody on suicide watch? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MR. : Is there any paperwork or 11 documentation for that that they have to fill 12 out? 13 MR. : No. Basically they'll tell 14 that, you know, that hey we need to place him 15 on watch, and we'll place him on watch, and 16 then we'll contact psychology. 17 MR. : Okay. 18 MR. : To come in and talk to them. 19 MR. : Okay. There's no referral 20 that says, "I placed inmate" -- 21 MR. : No. Psychology will handle 22 it -- 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MR. : -- here and there, in their 25 notes and their documentation that they were EFTA00125501 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 placed on it, when they were placed on it. 2 MR. : So, the psychology 3 department is responsible for documenting when 4 people come in in treatment. 5 MR. : We, you know, we have what 6 we call a daily log in the 7 MR. : Um-hum. 8 MR. : -- institution. So, the log 9 would annotate somebody was placed on suicide 10 watch also. 11 MR. : Okay. Is there any 12 specific forms or reports that get filled out 13 when somebody is removed from suicide watch? 14 MR. : I believe psychology would 15 do those forms and saying in their reports why 16 they were removed and if they're ready to be 17 released. 18 MR. : Do you get those forms? 19 MR. : I don't get the special 20 medical ones. I just, with the notification 21 that, you know, with the one that email that 22 goes out -- 23 MR. : Um-hum. 24 MR. : -- that the individual was 25 released from suicide watch. EFTA00125502 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 38 1 MR. : Do you get notified, you 2 just said you get notified in the email that 3 somebody's removed or -- 4 MR. : It's an email that the 5 psychology department puts out stating who's on 6 suicide watch, who's been removed. 7 MR. : Is that a daily list? 8 Like they send it once a day, or when someone 9 new comes on and off? How does that 10 MR. : It's a daily one. And -- 11 MR. : Okay. 12 MR. : And it states who's on 13 watch, who's, you know, who's got released, and 14 15 MR. : Who does that get 16 disseminated to? 17 MR. : It's a group. It's a group 18 email that gets sent to all department heads, 19 Captain, Lieutenants, everybody in the need to 20 know. 21 MR. : This is the supervisors 22 within the institution? The Lieutenants, the 23 Captain. 24 MR. : (Indiscernible *00:17:07). 25 MR. : Okay. EFTA00125503 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 39 1 MR. : And, don't quote me on that, 2 but I need to look at the chain -- 3 MR. : Okay. 4 MR. : -- to see who's actually on 5 it. But -- 6 MR. : But it's not an 7 institution -wide email? 8 MR. : It is kind of sent out 9 institution wide because you have the different 10 departments on it. So, you can say it's 11 institution wide. 12 MR. : Not every person in the 13 institution gets that email, though? 14 MR. : No. I don't -- 15 MR. : Okay. Just not an MCC all 16 type of -- 17 MR. : No, it's not an all staff. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : Yeah. 20 MR. : What is the expectation of 21 the department heads and the supervisors and 22 the Lieutenants and Captains once they get this 23 email? What are they supposed to do with that? 24 MR. : I mean, it's just a 25 notification that the individual's being EFTA00125504 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 40 1 removed from suicide watch. So, it depends on 2 where they're going. So, if they're going back 3 to Special Housing Unit, so it's notification 4 that hey, this person's been taken off. We 5 have nobody on watch right now. 6 MR. : Okay. Are they supposed 7 to disseminate that? What are they supposed to 8 do with that information? Are they supposed to 9 tell anybody where they -- 10 MR. : Well, I mean when that 11 individual is released -- 12 MR. : Um-hum. 13 MR. : Wherever they're going for, 14 they're going to be notified by psychology that 15 they're coming directly -- 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MR. : -- to you. 18 MR. : Okay. 19 MR. : So, it was just an 20 accountability -- 21 MR. : Okay. 22 MR. : -- thing just to know that 23 hey, this person is getting off of watch. 24 MR. : So, psychology will notify 25 whatever unit they're going back to? EFTA00125505 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 41 1 MR. : Well, it depends where 2 you're going back to. Typically I always go to 3 Special Housing Unit down. 4 MR. : Okay. 5 MR. : And typically when you do, 6 let's say an individual has tried to commit 7 suicide. It's an infraction. So, they usually 8 have an incident report that goes beyond that. 9 So, you have to come up to the Special Housing 10 Unit anyway before so that that infraction can 11 be resolved. 12 MR. : Okay. 13 MR. : So, there are a number of 14 aspects of, you know, how. Did you go straight 15 back or if you don't go back there. 16 MR. : And this email that 17 psychology sends out with the list of who's in 18 and who's out of suicide watch -- 19 MR. : Who's on watch, yeah? 20 MR. : -- is that once a day or 21 twice a day? Is that morning and evening 22 thing? 23 MR. : It depends. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : When you come in in the EFTA00125506 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 morning, they could say, you know, this is 2 who's on watch, and then you get another one 3 stating who's been released off of watch. 4 MR. : Okay. Is there any policy 5 or standard operation procedure on how 6 (Indiscernible *00:19:21) that email gets sent 7 out? 8 MR. : How what? 9 MR. : How frequent that email -- 10 MR. : No. 11 MR. : Okay. But it should be at 12 least once a day? 13 MR. : That's when they send it 14 out. I don't -- 15 MR. : Okay. When somebody is 16 removed from Special Housing -- 17 MR. : Um-hum. 18 MR. -- and placed in suicide 19 watch on the second floor -- 20 MR. : Um-hum. 21 MR. -- is anything done to 22 their cell in Special Housing? Is there any 23 precautions or anything that go into that? 24 MR. : So, typically let's say you 25 do leave, and it depends on how much space we EFTA00125507 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 43 1 have. We really don't have that much space. 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : So, usually that cell, 4 depending on if when they were removed from the 5 cell, if they had a cellmate. So, what happens 6 is that individual's property is removed, and 7 we could possibly put somebody else in that 8 cell. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : Um -- 11 MR. : And again, the suicide 12 watch versus psychological, the psyche eval 13 that, you said that happened right away when 14 someone first comes in the prison; correct? 15 MR. : Well I -- 16 MR. : A psyche eval? 17 MR. : I didn't say what you 18 said before that. You said -- 19 MR. : A psychological eval. 20 MR. : Okay. 21 MR. : I want to clarify, earlier 22 you said that people, inmates get that when 23 they first come into the prison; correct? 24 MR. : Yeah. Psychologically when 25 they initially have to come and actually EFTA00125508 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 perform -- 2 MR. : Okay. 3 MR. : -- an initial intake 4 screening. 5 MR. : Is there a level below 6 suicide watch? 7 MR. : Well we also have what we 8 call a psyche observation. 9 MR. : Okay. 10 MR. : And I think the best way to 11 describe that would be it's a step-down from 12 suicide watch. For example, we might have a 13 mental health inmate that is just mentally, you 14 know, out there. So, we'll put them on psyche 15 observation. They haven't said they're going 16 to hurt themselves, but they have the potential 17 to do it. 18 Somebody might be on narcotics and acting 19 erratic and you don't know what they're on. 20 So, they might end up doing it. But it's a 21 different type of observation because it's not 22 as stringent as suicide watch. 23 MR. : Okay. 24 MS. : Can you explain what that 25 means? What are the requirements when an EFTA00125509 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 inmate is on psyche eval, or psyche 2 observation? 3 MR. : If they're on psyche 4 observation, we are not necessarily putting 5 them in a smock. You know? You can still have 6 your regular clothing. We're just observing 7 your behavior and that. So, that's the 8 difference. 9 MS. : And does the psychologist 10 stop by every day? 11 MR. : They're treated the same way 12 as somebody that's on suicide watch. They're 13 evaluated, come up with a plan. They're ready 14 to be released. Keep them on, more along those 15 lines. 16 MS. : Well is someone on psyche 17 evaluation, do they have an inmate companion 18 watching them? 19 MR. : Psyche obs also has an 20 inmate companion. So, anybody in that area has 21 an inmate watching them. 22 MR. : As the Warden, do you have 23 any input on the determinate if someone's in 24 psychological observation, in suicide watch or 25 observation status? Do you have any input on EFTA00125510 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 that? 2 MR. : I don't overrule medical 3 decisions. I'm not a doctor. 4 MR. : Um-hum. 5 MR. : If they come to me and say 6 this is warranted whether it's medical care or 7 not, I don't -- 8 MR. : Okay. 9 MS. : But you're briefed on it? 10 MR. : I'm briefed on it. Yes. 11 MS. : Is that orally? 12 MR. : Orally they'll come and say, 13 well we'll discuss an inmate saying, hey, he 14 has mental issues. I feel that they need to be 15 placed here or there. And I'm going with your 16 evaluation. I'm not going to, and I have good 17 psychologists. So, I trust their judgment. 18 MS. : Can an inmate be taken off 19 of suicide watch by Dr. or her staff 20 without consulting you? 21 MR. : They can. The doctor 22 decides who's coming off of watch. So, they 23 can make the determination and, you know, they 24 send up to the Associate Warden, the Captain, 25 and it will come to release and if they're EFTA00125511 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 going off it. So, it doesn't -- 2 MS. : But do they -- 3 MR. : -- have to necessarily, it's 4 not my approval. 5 MS. : Do they typically consult 6 you when that happens? 7 MR. : Depending on, you know, if 8 it's the case, you know? Who it is, you might 9 be, like I said, a high profile individual they 10 would say, "Hey, we're taking him off of watch. 11 We're doing this." So, we'll be following the 12 plan closely, so -- 13 MR. : When it comes to Epstein, 14 Jeffrey Epstein -- 15 MR. : Um-hum. 16 MR. : -- he was in the mental 17 health program. Can you just tell us your 18 understanding of his involvement with the 19 psychologist at MCC? 20 MR. : Um, let me back-track. 21 MR. : Sure. 22 MR. : It's not a mental health 23 program. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MR. : Um -- EFTA00125512 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 48 1 MR. : Sorry. 2 MR. : Being, I guess, reviewed by 3 psychology -- 4 MR. : Sure. 5 MR. : -- they're following him. 6 He was on their case. 7 MR. : Okay. 8 MR. : And you want to know what I 9 knew about it? 10 MR. : Yes. 11 MR. : Again, he was under their 12 care. They were evaluating him, and, you know, 13 going through their protocol to determine why 14 he was on watch. If he was on suicide watch, 15 can he come off of suicide watch? Was he 16 suicidal? Things like that. 17 MR. : At any time, were you 18 aware or notified of him being suicidal or 19 having any suicidal ideations or attempts? 20 MR. : Well we had an incident 21 where he was in the cell with 22 MR. : Okay. 23 MR. : -- that it might've been a 24 suicide attempt and it might not have been a 25 suicide attempt. So, we followed the protocols EFTA00125513 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 and put him on watch. There was also an 2 internal investigation where he was interviewed 3 and his cellmate was interviewed, and he 4 basically denied (Indiscernible *00:25:35) . 5 MR. : When you say "he denied", 6 7 MR. : He said -- 8 MR. : -- or Epstein? 9 MR. : No, Epstein stated that, 10 "Hey, I didn't try to kill myself." And then 11 said that he was sitting in the 12 cell. He thought he was having a heart attack. 13 So, I forget the words psychology used to 14 determine what their conclusion was as far as 15 the actual act. 16 MR. : Okay. 17 MS. : Did you review the 18 incident report for the suicide attempt? 19 MR. : I reviewed the investigative 20 report that the Lieutenant interviewed both of 21 them, took their statements, and all that 22 because the review process goes from, the 23 Lieutenant initiates it. It goes to the 24 Captain, Associate Warden, and myself. And 25 then I, uh, sign off on it. EFTA00125514 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 50 1 MS. : Did you speak with Dr. 2 after she had consulted with Mr. Epstein 3 when he was placed on suicide watch? 4 MR. : Um, yes. We have SHU 5 meetings, and we have it once a week, and 6 Epstein was brought up, and she talked about 7 Mr. Epstein. 8 MS. : After the suicide attempt? 9 MR. : Yes. 10 MS. : What day of the week is 11 the SHU thing typically? 12 MR. : It's Thursdays. 13 MS. : All right and 14 MR. : Right. 15 MS. : -- what happens at the SHU 16 meetings? 17 MR. : It's a list where we go 18 around and we talk about every inmate. We have 19 inmates that are in there for infractions, 20 criminal issues, from your office, a high- 21 profile guy might come in. So, we just talk 22 about, okay, what's the status. If we call in 23 a disciplinary citation, that means they've 24 been sanctioned and they're doing time, and 25 then we look at the release date. We have some EFTA00125515 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 51 1 in there pending investigations. Cellphone 2 introduction. Drug introduction. So, that 3 goes through the investigative process, and 4 then we have, you know, we also have our SAMS 5 (phonetic sp.) inmates that are housed in 6 there. 7 So, we basically discuss and talk about 8 every inmate. 9 MS. : And who attends these 10 meetings? 11 MR. : Myself, all the Associate 12 Wardens, the Unit Managers, psychology, the 13 Captain, the SHU Lieutenant, the Investigative 14 Lieutenant. So, we just have everyone there 15 that's involved in the -- 16 MS. : And what's your 17 understanding of whether the SHU Lieutenant or 18 the Captain brief out the duty Officers in the 19 SHU about the outcome of that SHU meeting every 20 week. 21 MR. : I don't understand what you 22 mean. 23 MS. : So, do you have an 24 understanding of whether, because the duty 25 Officers are not present in the SHU meeting; EFTA00125516 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 correct? 2 MR. : No. 3 MS. : Do you have an 4 understanding of how, for instance, if you tell 5 the Lieutenant, I want this done in the SHU, 6 will the Lieutenant then tell his duty Officers 7 after the meeting? 8 MR. : Well, the duty officer is 9 supposed to make rounds throughout the 10 institution when they're on duty to observe and 11 report if anything is not right. And then if 12 we have incidents, they make notifications, you 13 know, to the region. 14 MS. : To the region? 15 MR. : To, like let's say we have a 16 fight. 17 MS. : Um-hum. 18 MR. : Or maybe like you said, a 19 suicide attempt. So, they have to contact the 20 Regional Duty Officer. That's their 21 notification. They make the Regional Duty 22 Officer, and then it moves up the chain that 23 way, and then I have to make my notifications, 24 which I make my notifications to the Regional 25 Director. EFTA00125517 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 53 1 MS. : Okay. And my question is, 2 does any information, do you have an 3 understanding of whether any information that's 4 conveyed in these SHU meetings gets briefed 5 down to the line Officers who are responsible 6 for patrolling the SHU? 7 MR. : Right. 8 MS. : It does? 9 MR. : Yeah. The SHU Lieutenant is 10 there, and he's in the meeting, he or she is in 11 the meeting, and they're talking to their staff 12 on what needs to be done or the status, you 13 know. We're going in and we determine if 14 somebody can be released, then that will be 15 conveyed back that hey, an individual can be 16 released. 17 MS. : So, you were saying that 18 after the July 23rd suicide attempt, there was a 19 Thursday SHU meeting? 20 MR. : Right. 21 MS. : In which Dr. 22 discussed at least her initial observations of 23 Mr. Epstein? 24 MR. : Well, she would initially 25 discuss it there, but she would also initially, EFTA00125518 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 1 whoever, you know, if the Warden is there, 2 initiate it to the AW. So, that would be 3 something immediate that she would say, hey, 4 he's on watch and this happened. 5 MS. : And what happened at that 6 first SHU meeting after the suicide attempt? 7 MR. : The week of July 22'd to the 8 26th, I was on leave. 9 MS. : Okay. 10 MR. : So, I was, you know, I was 11 getting called. So, I don't know the 12 specifics, but I was aware of, you know, I got 13 called that hey, there was an attempt and the 14 protocols were followed. 15 MS. : Okay. 16 MR. : Notifications were made. 17 MS. : Okay. So, the following 18 week which I think is the week of the 29". 19 MR. : The 29k" or the 30th, yeah. 20 MS. : You were back in the 21 office? 22 MR. : That Monday. So, if you 23 have a calendar, I can look at it. 24 MS. : I think it's the 29th 25 MR. : So, yeah. So, the 29th is a EFTA00125519 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 55 1 Monday. I have to check, did I take a extra 2 day or not? I'm not sure, but the 29th, I 3 should've, I would've been back. 4 MS. : So, that Thursday meeting 5 which looks like would've been August 13', you 6 were present at? 7 MR. : Yes. 8 MS. : And what was discussed 9 during the SHU meeting? 10 MR. : The SHU meeting, we'll 11 discuss every inmate. Every inmate on the 12 list, what's their status? Updates and all 13 that stuff. 14 MS. : Okay. And specifically 15 with respect to Epstein, what was discussed? 16 MR. : I don't recall specifically. 17 I know we would've talked about him. We 18 would've probably talked about, you know, his 19 psychological status and I got to remember on 20 the first, he was probably back in the Special 21 Housing Unit. So, we were probably, you know, 22 talking about his housing conditions, what's he 23 doing, and usually the conversation was during 24 the day he was down at the attorney visits, you 25 know? EFTA00125520 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 56 1 And then there were certain exams that we 2 had to do that we wanted to get done on him. 3 And then we discussed that. 4 MS. : Uh, what kind of exams? 5 MR. : Physicals and then, you 6 know, and I don't know if that was before or 7 after his sleep apnea machine that he was, you 8 know, requesting. 9 MS. : Um-hum. 10 MR. : Because typically, you know, 11 you have to go through the fitting and the 12 process, but, you know, we allowed that one to 13 come in. We checked it, security wise, and 14 said it was fine to come in, and we got it. 15 So, I think we might have been discussing that, 16 more along those lines. 17 But we discuss every inmate in there. I 18 don't specifically remember it. I know we 19 would've talked about what the issues were 20 pertaining to him. 21 MS. : Um, let's go back to 22 MR. : Um-hum. 23 MS. : -- the suicide attempt. 24 MR. : Okay. 25 MS. : You said that you were on EFTA00125521 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 57 1 leave that week, but you were notified by your 2 Associate Warden? 3 MR. : Associate Warden, yes. 4 MS. : Okay. Were you receiving 5 daily updates? 6 MR. : Not, I mean, they called me 7 during the day the first time that it happened. 8 Hey, this is what happened. He's on watch. 9 And then the next day, you know, he was still 10 on watch. So, there was really no, I didn't 11 need that much updates because we knew he was 12 on watch. 13 MS. : Okay. 14 MR. : Um -- 15 MS. : And you notified your 16 Regional Director? 17 MR. : I notified my Regional 18 Director. And then while I was on leave, my 19 Regional Director was also in contact with my 20 acting AW. 21 MS. : Did the -- 22 MR. : Acting Warden, I'm sorry. 23 MS. : Did the Regional Director 24 convey any directions to your AW during that 25 time? EFTA00125522 LIMITED OFFICIAL USE 58 1 MR. : I believe just the basics, 2 you know. Keep him updated what's going on 3 because at the time he was under psychology's 4 care. 5 MS. : Um-hum. 6 MR. : So, once they're in that, 7 there's really not that much input to go on 8 because they're on watch. 9 MS. : And then Epstein was 10 downgraded from suicide watch to psyche