IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL

648 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO.: CACE 15-000072 BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G. CASSELL, Plaintiffs, vs. ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, Defendant. VIDEOTAPE CONTINUED DEPOSITION OF ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ VOLUME 5 Pages 648 through 781 Wednesday, January 13, 2016 9:04 a.m. - 11:59 a.m. Tripp Scott 110 Southeast 6th Street Fort Lauderdale, Florida Stenographically Reported By: Kimberly Fontalvo, RPR, CLR Realtime Systems Administrator www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602439 649 651 1 APPEARANCES: 1 INDEX 2 2 3 On behalf of Plaintiffs: 3 SEARCY. DENNEY. SCAROLA Examination Page 4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY. P.A. 4 2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard s West Palm Beach. Florida 33402-3626 5 VOLUME 5 (Pages 648 - 781) BY: JACK SCAROLA. ESQ. 6 7 6 jsx esearcyhw.com 7Certificate of Oath 778 a On behalf of Defendant: Certificate of Reporter 779 9 COLE. SCOTT & KISSANE. P.A. 8Read and Sign Letter to Witness 780 10 Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400 9150 South Dadeland Boulevard Miami. Herida 33156 9 Errata Sheet (forwarded upon execution) 781 11 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT. JR.. ESQ. 10 PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS thotnas.scou6ksklegal.com 11 12 BY: STEVEN SAFRA. ESQ. (Via phone) steven.safranieskkgalcom 12No. Page 13 -and- 1325 Transcript from Don Lemon Interview 689 14 SWEDER & ROSS. 112 14 15 Ill Oliver Street Boston. MA 02110 15 BY: KENNETH k SWEDER. ESQ. 16 16 kswederesweder-ross.com 17 17 18 -and- WILEY. REIN 18 17769 K Suet, NW 19 19 Washington. DC 20006 20 20 BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON. ESQ. RSimpson6wilepein.com 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 650 652 1APPEARANCES (Continued): 1 Thereupon. the proceedings continued at 9:04 a.m. 2 2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Are now on the video 3On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein: 3 record. This is the 13th day of January. 2016. 4 DARREN K. INDYKE. PLLC 4 The time is 9:04 am. This is the videotaped 575 Lexington Ave.. 4th Fl. 5 New York, New York 5 deposition of Alan Dershowitz in the matter of BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQ. (Via phone) 6 Bradley Edwards and Paul Cassell versus Alan 6 7 Dershowitz. 7On behalf of 8 My name is Marcy Martinez_ I am the 8 BOLES. SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP 9 videographer representing Above & Beyond 401 E. Las Olas Blvd_ Ste. 1200 10 Reprographics. Will the attorneys please 9 Fat Lauderdale. Florida 33301 BY: SIGRID STONE MCCAWLEY, ESQ. 11 announce their appearances for the record. 10 [email protected] 12 MR. EDWARDS: Sure. On behalf of the 11 13 plaintiff today Brad Edwards. Jack Scarola 12 ALSO PRESENT: 19 Brittany Henderson and Paul Cassell. 13Edward I. P012U011. Special Master 15 MR. SIMPSON: On behalf of the defendant 14 Sean D. Reyes. Utah Attorney General Office 16 and the witness. Richard Simpson. and Thomas 15Marcy Martinez. Videographer 16 17 Scott will be joining. He just walked in. 17 18 MS. McCAWLEY: On behalf of nonparty 18 19 Sigrid McCawley and my 19 20 colleague Meredith Schultz from Boles. Schiller 20 21 & Plexner. 21 22 22 MR. INDYKE: On behalf of Jeffrey Epstein. 23 23 Darren Indyke. 24 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ed Ponuoli as 25 25 the special master. 2 (Pages 649 to 652) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602440 653 655 1 MR. SIMPSON: Is there anyone else on the 1 And I knew, of course, that I had never 2 phone? 2 met -- had no contact with I knew 3 MR. MAISEL: Yeah, this is Nicholas 3 that she was lying. I read her deposition. and as 9 Maisel. 9 an experienced lawyer with 50 years of experience, 5 THE COURT REPORTER: Would you raise your 5 it was absolutely clear to me that no lay person 6 right hand. please? 6 with her lack of education could have written that 7 Do you swear or affirm that the testimony 7 deposition. 8 you are about to give will be the truth, the 8 I sought the advice of friends and others 9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 9 with experience who confirmed the view that that 10 THE WITNESS: I do. 10 affidavit clearly had to have been written by 11 MR. SCAROLA: Nick would you announce the 11 lawyers and certainly drafted by lawyers: the level 12 capacity in which you're appearing, please. 12 of detail, the structure of the sentences, all of 13 MR. MAISEL: Special research assistant 13 which led me conclusively to the belief that the 14 for Alan Dershowitz, 14 lawyers had written this affidavit. 15 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. 15 I suspected from the very beginning that 16 MR. EDWARDS: Are we ready? 16 this was part of an extortion plot in order to 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Go ahead. 17 obtain money. I later learned many. many. many 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 facts. 19 Q. Mr. Dershowitx, in January of 2015. when 19 MR. EDWARDS: I object and move to strike 20 you made the statements that Paul Cassell unit Brad 20 as nonresponsive and that the question calls 21 Edwards participated in the fabricating of the 21 for information in his possession in January of 22 allegations that were made against you, what 22 2015. I would ask for a ruling on that. 23 information or evidence did you have in your 23 A. I'm providing that. but I'm giving the 24 possession at that time to support those statements? 29 context. 25 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form as overly 25 SPECIAL MASTER P0ZZUOLI: Denied. Move 654 656 1 general. You may answer. 1 forward. 2 A. As soon as the allegations were made 2 A. Okay. I knew that there was a financial 3against me. I received a series of phone calls and 3motivation here. I also knew that Cassell and 4people approached me at various events and they 4Edwards had lied when the said they were 5warned me about the reputation of Bradley Edwards. 5representing in a pro bono basis. 6 They told me that he had, in their view. 6 I had been informed repeatedly that they 7participated in a major fraud with a man named 7were in it for the money and that they expected to 8Rothstein. that he should be in jail for the 8earn a lot of money from representing her and others 9Rothstein events. 9in this case and that they pretended to be pro bono 10 I received a phone call saying that he had 10lawyers when they were, in fact. money-grubbing. 11 11 money-hungry lawyers who had earned a very fabricated evidence when he was a plos,utor and 12 that he had knowingly failed to investigate police 12 substantial amount of money already on these cases 13 fabrication of evidence in a case. Generally was 13and were expecting to earn mom money. 19 warned about the terrible reputation that 14 Let me think of what other information I 15 Mr. Edwards had. 15had. 16 I also received phone calls telling me 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: At the time of 17that Mr. Cassell was a zealot, that he had used me 17 the question. 18 in class as a whipping — as a kind of an object of 18 A. At the time of my statements, right. 19 hate and painted me as a liberal supporter of the 19 It's just inconceivable to me that this 20 exclusionary rule and opponent of the death penalty. 20 uneducated woman could have come up with this story 21 and that he had no concern for the truth when it 21 on her own. 22 came to his zealotry on behalf of alleged victims. 22 I understood the motives of the lawyers. 23 The calls were just -- the people who told 23 and I was convinced, therefore, it was my opinion 29 me this were just -- there were so many of them that 24 based on my experience, in fact. that she could not 25 it was amazing to me. 25 have done this by herself and that she had to have 3 (Pages 653 to 656) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602441 657 659 1 worked in coordination with her lawyers. 1 no. no. no. Na Respond to the question that 2 Her lawyers were also at that point 2 was answered and go ahead because I haven't 3claiming that the story should be believed because 3 heard any objection yet. 4 of who they were. Mr. Cassell. in my view. 4 MR. EDWARDS: I'm objecting to all of this 5unethically signed his pleading with the University 5 as being nonresponsive to the question. 6 of Utah imprimatur. suggesting that he was a State 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there 7actor. suggesting that he acted an behalf of his 7 anything else that you would like to add to the 8university, something I would never do and I've 8 answer? 9stopped clients from doing. When I represent 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10people. I represent them on my own behalf. not on 10 A. When the newspapers called me. they all 11 behalf of any university. 11asked me the following question -- 12 The very fact that the Attorney General of 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Was this in 13Utah was here yesterday indicates that he may very 13 January? 14 well be a State actor and subject to the rules of 14 A. This was in January. 15State action rather than individual action. 15BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That portion I 16 Q. The question on the table Is — 17 will strike. That sentence. 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 18 A. Sony. 18 second. 19BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 A. I'm going to tell you. 20 Q. Okay. 20 MR. EDWARDS: What information that 21 A. Tm not finished. 21 Mr. Dershowitz had in January 4.2015. when he 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Is there any 22 made the statement that Paul Cassell and Brad 23 other information that you haven't touched 23 Edwards fabricated the allegations against him. 24 on — 24 MR. SIMPSON: The question was about in 25 THE WITNESS: I'm (tying to— 25 January of 2015. 658 660 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: -- as of. what. 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That's what it 2 January? 2 was. That was the original question. which is 3 MR. EDWARDS: January of 2015. 3 why he was afforded a tremendous amount of 4 THE WITNESS: Oh. yes. 4 latitude. 5 MR. SCAROLA: January 4. 5 MR. EDWARDS: Understood. 6 MR. EDWARDS: January 4.2015. 6 A. And I got continuing information all 7 A. Okay. that's the question. But. of 7through January and amended my statements as 8 course. I made a sales of statements that continued 8consistent with the information that I ga. 9beyond January 4. and they always took into account 9 The newspapers called me. They all said 10new developments and new information that I had. 10to me. why would anybody make a false allegation if 11 I was also aware that Mr. Cassell was 11he's a former Federal judge. if he's a professor. if 12 promoting himself as a former federal judge and 12 he's a distinguished trial lawyer? 13 using his status and imprimatur in a false effort to 13 Clearly the -- on the 4th of December. 14 try to add credibility to the story. 14 talking about that day. that's the day on which 15 And I did not make -- this is very 15Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC — 16 important to this. I did not make a single call to 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17 a single newspaper or single television station. to 17 Q. January. 18 my knowledge. or a single newspaper. I was 18 A. January 4. 2015. that's the date on which 19 constantly responding. 19 Mr. Cassell wrote to ABC News asking them to 20 MR. SCAROLA: That's not responsive. 20 publicize his client's story and to — and again 21 A. Excuse me. In the last deposition -- 21 making it clear to ABC who he was and what he -- and 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. no. 22 who he had been and what offices he had held. 23 A. -- there was an interruption by 23 And so it was clear to me at that point. 24 Mr. Scarola that I want to put on the record. 24 and through January it became clearer and clearer 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. no. no. no. 25 that she could not have done this on her own, that 4 (Pages 657 to 660) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602442 661 663 1 she had to have sat with her lawyers and concocted 1 MR. EDWARDS: Affidavit. 2 this story. added the kind of detail to the story 2 A. — if I hadn't seen it at that point. I 3that would make a lie seem plausible and credible. 3 don't remember the exact day when her affidavit came 4 And I think that any reasonable lawyer reading that 4 in. I referred obviously to the pleadings. That 5affidavit would have come to exactly the same 5 was the allegation, the allegation in the pleadings. 6 conclusion that I came to. 6 So if I said that you and Cassell sat and 7 SPECIAL MASTER P0ZZUOL1: Okay. 7 helped her make it up. it was based on -- at that 8 BY MR. EDWARDS: B point in time, based on you and her. primarily you 9 Q. Mr. Dershowitz, when you first made the 9 and Cassell. because she didn't submit -- it wasn't 10statement on January 4..2015 that Mr. Cassell and 10 an affidavit at that point. 11 Brad Edwards had participated in the fabrication of 11 It was your words. you. that were accusing 12 these allegations. did you have before you any 12 me of these heinous crimes without any basis. So I 13affidavit or, as you have repeatedly called it, 13 surely had a basis on January 4th of attributing it 14 deposition of 14 to you because it was your signature on the — 15 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form. It's 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hold on a 16 referring to a specific statement that has not 16 second. So I understand. the question is what 17 been identified for the witness. 17 did you have on January 4th — 18 A. Affidavit of ' What I had 18 MR. EDWARDS: -- 2015 to support that 19was the lawyers statements that were included in 19 statement. 20 the Complaint, which they then sought to publicize 20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Just answer that 21all around the world and got more than a thousand 21 question first and then you can explain. but — 22newspapers to cover the story. every television 22 A. With due respect. Your Honor. I think the 23 station in the world. every radio station virtually 23 question was, did you have the affidavit in front of 24 in the world. based on what they themselves had 24 you. 25 written. actually gives me even a greater basis. 25 662 1 because it wasn't at that point based on her 1 BY MR. EDWARD$: 2 affidavit, it was based on what the lawyers had 2 Q. Right. Okay. Did you have the affidavit 3said. 3or deposition of on that day? 4 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Can I have the 4 A. To my recollection. I did not. 1 had only 5 question read back. I'm lost as to what the 5 your characterization of the accusation which you 6 question is anymore. 6 were making against me. 7 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Ask — reread 7 Q. And in your experience as an attorney, 8 the question. 8 isn't it common knowledge that attorneys drafting 9 COURT REPORTER: 'Mr. Dershowitz. when you 9complaints or pleadings take the word of the client 10 first made the statement on January 4. 2015 10 to form the basis of that Complaint or pleading? 11 that Mr. Cassell and Brad Edwards had 11 A. No. it's not common knowledge. It's 12 participated in the fabrication of these 12 common knowledge that unethical lawyers of the kind 13 allegations. did you have before you any 13 that your reputation told me you were help the 14 affidavit or. as you have repeatedly called it. 14 clients — 15 deposition of r 15 MR. EDWARDS: I object. Move to strike as 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16 nonresponsive. 17 Q. Did you? 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That. I am going 18 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So that's the 18 to strike. Try -- try to answer the question. 19 question. Answer that question only. 19 A. But I think the generic answer is ethical 20 MR. SCAROLA: Move to strike everything 20 lawyers — let me put it this way. ethical lawyers 21 else he's said. 21 should not elaborate on what a client tells them in 22 A. On January 4th. to my memory. I did not 22 an affidavit. 23 refer to a deposition or to whatever other word you 23 In my experience. there's a continuum. 24 used -- what was the word? 24 Many. many lawyers. when they see a statement by a 25 MR. SIMPSON: Affidavit. 25 client they'll say. no. no. no. no. could you 5 (Pages 661 to 664) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602443 665 667 1 please elaborate on that. You say you had sex with 1 MR. INDYKE: Instruct Alan not to answer 2 him. Was it one time? Was it two times? Could it 2 to the extent it would disclose communications 3 have been six times? Could it have been on the 3 of who made those — 4 airplane? Could it have been -- et cetera. 4 SPECIAL MASTER PO'CLUOLI: Objection noted. 5 So I think it's a continuum of the way S You can answer it. 6 lawyers work with clients. The most ethical lawyers 6 A. What framework are you giving me in terms 7 don't change what a client says. They word for word 7 of time? 8 repeat what the client says. 8 SPECIAL MASTER PO'CLUOLI: In January. 9 The most unethical lawyers will put all of 9 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 their own thoughts. words. ideas if it strengthens 10 Q. You told me that before you made these 11 their position and strengthens their case. 11 statements. one of the things that you had in your 12 From what I had been -- from the 12 possesskm was a series of phone calls. "a bunch of 13 information I knew at that time. I put you on the 13 people called me" — 14 extreme unethical end of the continuum. 14 A. That is right. That's true. 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That wasn't the 15 Q. -- "and told me Brad Edwards participated 16 question. so I will strike the last sentence. 16 in major fraud with Rothstein." That's the first 17 We need to get focused on answering the 17 question I want answered. What are the names of 18 question. so please try to do that. 18 those people? 19 A. Okay. I will do that. 19 A. A number of them who called me were ones 20 BY MR. EDWARDS: 20 who volunteered — 21 Q. When you first made the statements that 21 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a response to the 22 Paul Cassell and Brad Edwards fabricated the 22 question. 23 allegations — 23 BY MR. EDWARDS: 24 A. Would you read me the statement that you 24 Q. What are the names? 25 say I made on January 4th so I can understand what 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Stop. stop. 666 668 1 rem saying? 1 please. please. please. 2 Q. Do you deny making the statement that Brad 2 A. I'm invoicing the privilege, if you would 3Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations 3allow me. please. A number of those who called me 4 against you? 4 called me in tandem to volunteer to be my lawyer. 5 A. I remember making a series of statements 5 I'll give you an example. 6 over time. I do not remember what I said on 6 SPECIAL MASTER PUELUOLI: No. no. hang on. 7January 4th. In order to ask me what I had at the 7 A. I can't name this person because he called 8time I made the statement. I need to know with 8 to give me legal advice. and I — he gave me that 9 precision the exact statement you are referring to 9information as pan of his legal advice. 10and the exact date. I think that's a fair request. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 11 Q. We'll get that for you. It would be 11 Q. I'm not asking if one of the lawyers who 12 easier had you made less statements, but we'll sift 12 represented you and you have an attorney-client 13through them. 13 privilege with has shared with you some information 14 A. If would be easier if you had called -- 14 that they believe to he the case. 15 MR. SIMPSON: There's no question. Object 15 I'm asking if you are using as support for 16 to the sidebar comments. 16 your statement that certain people told you and you 17 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes, let's -- 17 relied upon this -- and the particular "this" at 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 this point is that Brad Edward participated in a 19 Q. What are the names -- please list for me 19 major fraud with Scott Rothstein -- I want to know 20all of the names of the people who told you that -- 20 the names of those people that you are relying upon 21 in quotes -- Brad Edwards was -- participated in a 21 to test veracity of that statement, please. Names 22 major fraud with Rothstein. Names of people. 22 of people. 23 MR. INDYKE: Objection based upon 23 A. One of the names was of a person who I was 24 attorney-client, work product. common interest. 24 seeking legal representation from. and it was pan 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, okay. 25 of my conversation with him regarding legal 6 (Pages 665 to 668) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602444 669 1representation. 1 MR. INDYKE: Sane objection. same 2 MR. SCAROLA: That's not a name. 2 instruction. 3 MR. EDWARDS: I'm sorry. I object and I 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's — 4 ask — 4 MR. EDWARDS: Calls for a yes or no. 5 A. If I give you the name — S SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's only asked 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I do think you 6 if you aware that the case was dismissed at 7 have to give the name. 7 that time. 8 A. Okay. The name of that person would be 8 A. I don't think I was. But a case being 9David Markus. 9 dismissed does not mean the allegation isn't true. 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: 1 understand. 11 Q. Okay. 11 but -- 12 A. And he told me to check the docket -- 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 MR. SIMPSON: Just the question. 13 Q. Okay. In addition to David Markus, can 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 you please complete this list of people that you 15 Q. When did David Markus call you to tell you 15 testified called you to tell you specifically that 16that he knew or believed that Brad Edwards 16 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 17participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 17 Rothstein? 18 A. Within days. Within probably a day or 18 A. So, I spoke several times during that 19two. 19 period of time at various events. And people • - 20 Q. Did he tell you what it was that formed 20 lawyers came over to me and told me -- 21the basis for that statement that he made to you 21 Q. I'm not asking where. Who? What are the 22 that you so relied upon? 22 names? 23 A. I don't recall. 23 A. I can tell you one of them-- 24 Q. Was it more than the fact that your 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: He's trying to 25 client, Jeffrey Epstein. had filed a lawsuit making 25 be -- I would allow him to answer it. He's 670 672 1 those allegations? 1 trying to be responsive to the question. 2 A. I don't think he was aware that Jeffrey 2 Please proceed. 3 Epstein had nude an allegation of that kind. 3 A. One of them was a Conner president or 4 Q. At the time when David Markus called you 4 chairman or at least member of the Florida Bar 5 to tell you that Brad Edwards participated in a 5 committee who warned me about you. 6 major fraud with Rothstein did you already — 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 A. That's not — 7 Q. Does he have a name? 9 Q. -- have or know that Scott Rothstein had 8 A. I dont remember his name. I don't 9 testified under oath about that specific subject 9remember his name. no. Of course he has a name, but 10 matter? 10I don't remember his name. 11. A. Well. I cant imagine that mite relying 11 Another was — I mean — just hard to 12 on Scott Rothstein's credibility. 12 pinpoint names. but it was something that was 13 Q. I'm asking, did you know? 13 clearly in my mind that so many people were telling 14 MR. SIMPSON: Just answer the question. 14 me -- telling me to look into the case of Rothstein. 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 telling me that you were his protege. 16 Q. Yes or no? 16 Q. Okay. Is it true, then, that you have the 11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOU: Did you know? 17 name of one person who you can identify told you 18 A. I did not know. 18 that Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 19 BY MR. EDWARDS: 19 Rothstein? 20 Q. Did you know at that point in time that 20 A. I was also aware, of course. of the 21 the Complaint that was tiled by your client. Jeffrey 21 Complaint that had been filed against you. And that 22 Epstein. against Brad Edwards. making those exact 22 was one — I mean, I cant comment on that because n allegations, had been dismissed at the stage -- at 23 of lawyer-client privilege. 24 the point in time when David Markus was making these 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Listen to the 25 statements to you that you so relied upon? 25 question, Professor. Go ahead. 7 (Pages 669 to 672) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602445 673 675 1 BY MR. EDWARDS: 1 MR. SIMPSON: He did not testify that 2 Q. Is it now your testimony that you can only 2 he — we went through long questions and 3 provide me with one name of one human being that 3 answers in response to Mr. Edwards' questions. 4 called you and told you Brad Edwards participated in 4 He did not say he was relying on what his 5 a major fraud with Rothstein? 5 lawyers told him in this case. 6 A. 1 will try to think of others. 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I think that 7 Probably -- I may have some notes of others. I will 7 there is — let me say this: I think the 8 call around and find out whether my memory is 8 question was from Mr. Edwards whether he relied 9 correct or not. 9 on statements from his lawyers. I do think 10 MR. SIMPSON: Professor -- 10 that you have to answer that question. 11 A. But I don't want to mention names without 11 A. I would say that the statements from my 12 being sure. 12lawyers played a small role. The larger role -- 13 MR. SIMPSON: Just do you recall, as you 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 sit here, the names? 14 Q. I want to know about that small role. 15 A. And right now. I don't recall names. other 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on one 16 than a general discussion with my lawyers. And in 16 second. So now proceed. 17 the general discussion with my lawyers -- and I 17 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 don't want to get into it -- 18 Q. Sure. I would like to know whose 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Then don't do 19 statements it was that played a small role in your 20 it. 20belief that Brad Edwards fabricated cases based on 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 21 the statements that they made to you that 22 Q. Are you relying upon the statements from 22 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 23 your lawyers to support this allegation that the 23 Rothstein. What arc the name of those individuals? 24 basis of your statement that Brad Edwards 24 A. It's a complicated question here. So 25 participated in the fabrication of the allegations 25 there are three issues that I understand. One, what 674 676 1 against you was a list of people told you 1 was the basis for my belief that you had fabricated 2 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 2 along with Mr. Cassell -- 3 Rothstein: and, if so. I want to know the names of 3 Q. No, I'm asking for names of human beings. 4 those lawyers that you are using to support that 4 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. let me stop S allegation? 5 you. My understanding of your testimony was 6 SIR. SIMPSON: Well, we have asserted 6 that whatever you received — whatever 7 privilege as to communications with those who 7 information you received from your laws 8 represented you. Please dont disclose that. 8 played a small role. That's what you testified 9 MR. SCAROLA: Respectfully — pardon me — 9 to. 10 the witness is the possessor of that privilege. 10 THE WITNESS: That's right. 11 He cannot make a statement disclosing the 11 SPECIAL MASTER PUELUOLI: Correctly. 12 content of the communications that he is 12 Mr. Edwards then followed up on that question 13 relying on and then he himself assert a 13 and said. let's go into that small role. 14 privilege to refuse to provide further 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 information with regard to the statement that 15 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: So row... 16 he has made. We would request a ruling on the 16 BY MR. EI)WARI)S: 17 record as to whether there has already been a 17 Q. What arc the names of those people that 18 waiver. 18 gave you this information that played a small role 19 A. What I said, of course. was that— 19 in -- 20 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Excuse me. Hang 20 A. In what? 21 on a second. 21 Q. -- in your belief that Brad Edwards had 22 MR. SCAROLA: %Vete requesting a oiling on 22 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein which 23 the record as to whether there has been a 23 somehow furthered your belief that Brad Edwards and 24 waiver as a consequence of what has already 24 Paul Cassell fabricated the allegations against you? 25 been stated. 25 So I'm asking for names of the people. 8 (Pages 673 to 676) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602446 677 679 1 A. So my best recollection, and its now over 1 came over to me and told me -- he may have given me 2 a year. is that that was a subject of conversation 2 a card. which I conceivably may have at home. told 3with David Markus. It was also the subject of 3me that he was a former official of the Florida Bar 4conversation with — 4 and was outraged at what had happened and told rte to 5 MS. McCAWLEY: Fm sorry. I didn't hear 5please look into your background and then told me 6 that. If he's talking about conversations -- 6about your background. 7 MR. EDWARDS: lie said Davis Markus. 7 Q. Dade Markus, Is he a former student f 8 MS. McCAWLEY: Fm sorry. I couldn't 8yours? 9 hear. 9 A. Yes, yes. 10 A. Another lawyer -- other people sent me 10 Q. Did he have anything to do with the 11 newspaper clippings. 11 investigation into the -- Scott Rothstein or any of 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: No. no. no. 12 that? 13 A. Lawyer. Okay. The other lawyer who told 13 A. I don't know. 14me about that was a lawyer named David Efron. 14 Q. David Efron. did he have any inside 15 MR. SCAROLA: First of all. make sure the 15personal information into who was or who was not 16 list is complete. and then you want to know 16culpable in any aspect of the fraud with Scott 17 everyone. 17Rothstein? 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Is that It? David Markus, David Efron? 19 MR. SCAROLA: You want to know exactly 20 A. Those are the two I remember offhand. 20 what they said. 21 Plus. as I said. when I spoke -- I spoke 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 at several events in January — 22 Q. Before we go to the next statement that 23 Q. Right now -- 23apparently formed your basis for believing that 24 A. — and lawyers came -- people -- 24 Brad Edwards and Paul Cassell fabricated the 25lawyers — 25allegations against you. can you tell me exactly 678 680 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me stop you. 1 word for word as you remember it what David Markus 2 BY MR. EDWARDS: 2 and then what David Efron told you — 3Q. Let me get to the next question. 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let's start with 4 A. Yes. 4 the first one. 5 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Let me ask the 5 BY MR. EDWARDS: 6 witness, the question is limited to — 6 Q. -- what David Markus told you about the 7 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, the lawyers who played 7participation of Brad Edwards in a fraud with 8 a small role. 8 Rothstein? 9 SPECIAL MAMMA POZZUOLI: The small role 9 MR. SINIPSON: We assert privilege to the 10 around the lawyers, and I think the followup 10 extent that it's someone who he was getting 11 question was, you've mentioned a second lawyer. 11 legal advice from. 12 is there anybody else on that list? 12 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'm going to 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 allow the question. You can answer over 14 Q. Yes. 14 objection. 15 A. Two lawyers. yes. The lawyers who came is A. Atli can tell you is what the total 16 over to me at the events that I spoke at. 16 information I had at that point. I can't now, as I 17 Q. 14'hat are their names? 17 sit here, separate out what Markus said, what Efron 18 A. 1 don't know. 18 said. what the lawyers who I met at the events said. 19 Q. How do you know that they're lawyers? 19 I can give you a totality of what the conclusion was 20 A. Because it was a lawyers' event. And they 20 that was reached. Each of themcontributed 21 were trial lawyers. This was all trial lawyers at 21 something. 22 the event. Florida trial lawyers. 22 BY MR. EDWARDS: 23 Q. You don't have the names of any of them: 23 Q. Where were you when you received this 24 is that right? 24 communication from David Markus about his 25 A. I can describe one of them as somebody who 25 understanding or belief that Brad Edwards 9 (Pages 677 to 680) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602447 681 683 1 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 1 the generalities. but I don't remember the 2 A. In my apanntent. I suspect. 2 particulars of that. I would be happy to try to 3 Q. Do you remember 11th? 3refresh my recollection. 4 A. 1 remember being in my apartment when the 4 MR_ SCAROLA: Were going to take a short 9 story broke and getting call after call after call 5 break. 6 from lawyers. 6 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record. The 7 Q. Was this a telephone call with David 7 time is 9:38 a.m. 8 Markus — 8 (Recess was held from 9:38 a.m. until 9:45 am.) 9 A. Probably. 9 VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the record. 10 Q. — or an in-person meeting? 10 The time is 9:45 a.m. 11 A. It was -- well, I had both. I had both 11 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 with him. I had a telephone call and then we had a 12 Q. Did David Markus say Brad Edwards 13 meeting. 13participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 14 Q. And in this, did he describe to you what 14 MR. SCOTT: Objection. work product and 15 support he had for this statement that he was making 15 privileged. 16 to you regarding the involvement of Brad Edwards in 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll overrule 17 a major fraud with Rothstein? 17 the objection. 18 MR. SCOTT: Objection. work product on 18 MR. SCOTT: I have a question. Are we 19 this whole line of questioning. He has the 19 taking the position that he has to answer the 20 name. If we're going to go beyond this, we 20 question now and pending an appeal to the 21 need a judicial ruling from the judge and you. 21 judge? Is that what were doing? 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOL1: Well. I'm going 22 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Or -- I will 23 to allow the witness to answer it at this point 23 reserve your right -- 24 and overrule the objection without prejudice. 24 MR_ SCOTT: Because you reserved on all 25 A. What is the question again? 25 their stuff yesterday. 682 684 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Well, go back to 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I will reserve 2 the question. 2 on that. but I want him to answer the question 3 COURT REPORTER: 'And in this, did he 3 at this point I believe that at this point. 4 describe to you what support he had for this 4 given the inquiry and given the witness's 5 statement that he was making to you regarding 5 answers previously, that they've opened the 6 the involvement of Brad Edwards in a major 6 door, at least to this extent. But I will 7 fraud with Rothstein?" 7 reserve, but I want him to answer. 8 A. I'm sum he told me some information 8 A. I will. I do not recall precisely what 9involving his state of knowledge. but I can't 9David Markus or David Efron said. I do recall that 10 separate out now what different people told me. All 10they — to the best of my recollection, that they 11 I remember is the totality of the conclusion that I 11both contributed to my general sense of what your 12 reached based on what they told me. 12 reputation was. 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 13 BY MR. EDWARDS: 14 Q. What specifically did he tell you, if you 14 Q. I want to only slick with David Markus and 15 remember? 15then we'll move on to David Efron. 16 MR. SCOTT: Same objection standing. I 16 A. Okay. 17 just wanted to make sure we have a standing 17 Q. All right. Did David Markus say anything 18 objection. 18 along the lines of, close to, Brad Edwards 19 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I'll give you a 19 participated in a major fraud with Rothstein? 20 standing objection. I understand that piece. 20 MR. SCOTT: Same objection. 21 If you don't remember, you don't remember or if 21 A. My best recollection is that he said 22 you can't describe it. rather than going 22 something along those lines. He certainly said 23 through again the generalities. so try to 23 something that led me to that conclusion. 24 answer his specific question. 24 BY MR. EDWARDS: 25 A. Sure. Okay. The answer is I do remember 25 Q. Did he tell you to look into a court file 10 (Pages 681 to 684) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602448 685 687 1 or did he tell you Brad Edwards participated in a 1 assistance and to tell me how outrageous he thought 2 major fraud with Rothstein? 2 this was. And in the count of the conversation. he 3 MR. SIMPSON: We have a continuing 3mentioned to me that I should be very careful about 4 objection on this, and also object to the form 4 you. that you had this reputation. and then he told 5 of that one. 5me some things about your reputation that helped 6 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yeah, well, the 6form my general impression about who you were and 7 form I'm not going to rule on. but the form is 7what you would do. 8 awkward, at best. 8 Q. With respect to the reputation of 9 MR. SIMPSON: We just want in the record 9Brad Edwards. did he tell you anything beyond 10 we have a continuing objection. 10describing what he understood to he as facts related 11 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes. 11 to the Scott Rothstein fraud? 12 BY MR. EDWARDS: 12 A. I think he -- others also told me that -- 13 Q. I've heard two statements. One is that 13 Q. I'm only talking about David Markus. 19 David Markus said to look into a court file. And 14 A. Well. I can't separate out completely what 15 the other I understood you to say is. David Markus 15David Markus told me and what others told me. I 16 told me Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud 16 for mod the holistic impression based on what a large 17 with Rothstein. which is what gave the support for 17number of people told me. That's the best I can do. 18 the statement that I ultimately made about 18 Q. When was your first communication with 19 Brad Edwards participating in the fabrication of 19 David Markus? 20 these allegations. 20 A. Oh. probably the day of the allegation or 21 So I'm trying to understand, did David 21 maybe the day after. But very, very soon 22 Markus tell you that Brad Edwards pa paled in a 22 thereafter. 23 major fraud with Rothstein? 23 Q. Do you have journal entries indicating the 29 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: You have a 24 telephone call that you had with David Markus? 25 continuing objection. but you can answer. 25 A. I don't journals entries of that kind. no. 686 688 1 A. To the best of my recollection, it's more 1 Q. Do you have phone records that would serve 2 than a year ago now, he told me facts that led me to 2 as evidence of the telephone call between yourself 3conclude that you had participated in a major fraud. 3and David Markus? 4 He told me. for example. that what 4 A. I suspect -- he called me. I remember that 5 Brad Edwards — that what Rothstein was selling were 5 for sure. He called me. 6 ft Edwards cases made up by people who didn't 6 Q. Do you have telephone records that support 7 exist. 7 his can to you? 8 He told me --I think it was he who told 8 A. I don't know if the telephone records show 9me. but I can't be sure. that you were a protege. 9who called you. If they do. probably we do. 10 that you had offices that were very close to each 10 Q. On the days that you claim that you met 11 other, that the fraud was very similar to what was 11with David Markus, do you have journal citric. or 12 being alleged against me. That's. again. my best 12 any other diary notation that would -- that .1 mild 13 recollection of a conversation that occurred over a 13 serve as evidence of such a meeting? 14 year ago. 14 A. Ill check. I remember where we net. I 15 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 don't remember exactly when. And if I paid for it, 16 Q. Did he tell you where he gathered that 16 I may have paid for it by credit card. I'll check. 17information that you just described to us? 17Ill be happy to do that. 18 A. He did not. I think he — no, he did not 18 Q. Did you meet with David Markus before or 19 tell me precisely where he got it from, no. 19 after appearing on the Don Lemon show on January 5. 20 Q. Did he share with you his own conclusion 20 2015? 21 that Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 21 A. I think 1 met with him before. I think I 22 Rothstein? 22 met with him before. I certainly communicated with 23 A. I don't recall that. That's not the 23 him before. 24 nature of the way a conversation happens. I wasn't 24 Q. Was it before your appearance on the Don 25 cross examining him. He was calling me to offer his 25 Lemon show when David Markus provided you with 11 (Pages 685 to 688) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602449 689 691 1 information that led you to conclude that 7 now to strike. 2 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 2 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Hang on. Motion 3Rothstein? 3 to strike is granted. But here's the issue. 4 A. I never said that publicly. of course. on 4 Let him identify the document first and lay the 5Lemon or any of the other shows. So. you're asking 5 predicate down and then go back into the 6me a compound question. Was it before I came to 6 document. I don't want to tell you how to do 7that conclusion that then contributed to my belief 7 the deposition. but it makes it cleaner. 8that you had worked -- that you had created false 8 So. Brad. please have him identify the 9testimony? It did 9 document first and see what he knows about the 10 MR. EDWARDS: What number exhibit are we 10 document and then now forward. 11 up to? 11 MR. SIMPSON: I think it's the portion of 12 COURT REPORTER: Twenty-five. 12 it you're asking about. that's what wete 13 MR. EDWARDS: Twenty-five, okay. I'll go 13 trying to identify. 14 ahead and mark this transcript from the Don 14 BY MR. EDWARDS: 15 Lemon interview as 25. 15 Q. Sure. Well, the first question has 16 (Thereupon. marked as Plaintiff 16 nothing do with the document. It is. did you appear 17 Exhibit 25.) 17 on the Don Lemon show January 5.2015? 18 BY MR. EDWARDS: 18 SPECIAL MASTER POTLUOIJ: That's an easy 19 Q. I'm going to show you the interview and 19 question. 20 particularly the bracketed paragraph. 20 A. Yes, yes. 21 A. Sure. 21 BY MR. EDWARDS: 22 Q. Do you see the section that we bracketed 22 Q. Okay. In that interview -- can you 23 there? 23 identify the transcript that you're holding in your 24 A. Yeah. Yeah, let me just -- 24 hand as a transcript of that interview? 25 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: fin going to 25 A. It seems like it is. yes. 690 692 7 look over your shoulder. 1 Q. Okay. And does it seem to accurately have 2 THE WITNESS: Sure. 2transcribed, to the best of your memory, that 3 BY MR. EDWARDS: 3interview that you had with Don Lemon? 4 Q. Is that a statement that you made on 4 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form. 5 January 5, 2015? 5 A. Yes. 6 A. Let me read into the record what I said. 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7 Q. I'm asking right now is that a statement 7 Q. Can you read for us the portions that are 8 that you made? 8bracketed? 9 SPECIAL MASTER POZ7_UOLI: Which statement? 9 A. No. because they're out of context. I 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 10 refuse to do that. That's what happened yesterday. 11 Q. The statement that is bracketed. 11and you totally read it out of context. I will read 12 MR. SlhIPSON: Can fajta? The record 12 it for you in context. 13 doesn't reflect what that is. SO the answer 13 I will read the question that was asked me 14 will be misleading. You can't ask about a 14 and I will read the entire answer, but I won't read 15 statement that no one knows what it is. 15your selected excerpts which mislead everybody in 16 BY MR. EDWARDS: 16this transcript. No. I won't do that. 17 Q. You can read the statement into the 17 Q. Okay. 18 record, but right now I'm just asking is that -- is 18 A. Because that would be a lie, and I'm under 19 that an accurate transcript of your statement that 19oath. So I'll be happy to read the entire thing. 20 you're holding in your hand? 20 MR. SCOTT: Seems like a fair request. 21 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the thrm. 21 MR_ EDWARDS: If we're going to read 22 A. let me respond to that. Yesterday you 22 entire transcripts. not just the defamatory 23 read transcripts. and it turned out you left out 23 remarks. we're going to be here all clay. 24 absolutely critical exculpatory — 24 A. We have time. The truth takes time and in 25 MR. EDWARDS: Objection. nonresponsive. 25full context. 12 (Pages 689 to 692) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602450 693 695 1 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Okay. 1 A. I think he called me the day of the event. 2 MR. SIMPSON: Wait for a question. please. 2 the day the story was in the newspapers. 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: I believe its 3 Q. Would you have calendar entries or 4 fair for the question starting -- the question 4 telephone records to support the date of that call? 5 that starts right above the bracketed where 5 A. I don't know about telephone records. I 6 Mr. Lemon asks. "So why arc you being targeted! 6 don't have a calendar entry. 7 As you mentioned the lawyers. why would someone 7 Q. Did you meet with David Efron in person or 8 target you. Alan Dershowitz. with these very 8 only by telephone? 9 serious allegations?" And then from there 9 A. I did. I met with hint in person. 10 down, you don't need to read the whole thing. 10 Q. And what did — or did David Efron say 11 but I think you'll get your point across that 11 Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud with 12 way. 12 Scott Rothstein? 13 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. 13 A. Again. I can only say that he gave rte 14 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: That standpoint 14 facts and statements that led me to that conclusion. 15 would provide some level of context. 15 which I stated in the interview. namely that 16 A. "Don Lemon: So. why are you being 16 Rothstein had sold Epstein cases. and that Edwards 17 targeted? As you mentioned the lawyers. why would 17 was his partner. and that his reputation was not 18 someone target you. Alan DCTS11OWiiI. with these very 18 good in the community. 19 serious allegations?" 19 Q. Did David Efron provide you with the 20 My response: 'Well. I fit beautifully 20 support for his alleged conclusion that 21 into the profile because they want to be able to 21 Brad Edward? reputation is not good? 22 challenge the plea agreement. and I was one of the 22 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form. Do we 23 lawyers who organized the plea agreement. I got the 23 have the continuing objection. sir? 24 very good deal for Jeffrey Epstein. I plead guilty 24 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Yes. continuing 25 to getting him a good deal. That's my job. And if 25 objection. 694 696 1 they can find a lawyer who helped draft the 1 MR. SIMPSON: Thank you. 2agreement who was also a criminal having sex. wow. 2 A. I think he — I think he either brought me 3that could help them blow up the agreement. So they 3or told me about some newspaper articles, which I 4 sat down together. the three of them, these two 4 then read and formed my own conclusion. And he 5sleazy. unprofessional. disbanabk lawyers. Paul 5 also -- 6 Cassell. a former federal judge and current 6 BY MR. EDWARDS: 7professor, and another sleazy lawyer from Florida 7 Q. Which newspaper articles did David Efron 8Brad Edwards, whose partner is in jail for 50 years 8 provide you? 9to trying to sell Epstein cases fraudulently. they 9 A. I don't remember. But I -- at that point 10sat down together and they said, who would fit into 10 in time. I was not reading the local newspapers, and 11this description, a lawyer who knows Epstein who 11 apparently there was some large coverage of the 12 helped draft. ha. Dershowitz. So they and the woman 12 Rothstein matter. 13got together and contrived and made this up: 13 I didn't really know about the Rothstein 14 That is a truthful statement, and I stand 14 matter much at all. But when my accusation 15 by 15 occurred. I got lots and lots of calls from people 16 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Okay. 16 telling me about the Rothstein matter and giving me 17 BY MR. EDWARDS: 17all kinds of information about it. 18 Q. In January -- on January 5, 2015, when you 18 Q. Wtnn't it within the context of what 19made the statement that Brad Edwards and Paul 19 you're now describing the Rothstein matter that Jack 20Cassell sat down with the woman together and 28 Scarola attempted to depose you in 2011? 21 contrived and made this up, had you already spoken 21 A. I don't recall whether that was the 22 with David Efron? 22 Rothstein matter. But I wasn't following it. 23 A. Yes. 23 Q. When you communicated with Mr. Scuola 24 Q. Okay. What is the date when you spoke to 24 about whether or not you could be subject or would 25 David Efron? 25 be subject to deposition, are you saying that you 13 (Pages 693 to 696) www.phippsreporting.com (888)811-3408 EFTA00602451 697 699 1 had no idea which case — that the case in which you 1 instruction. 2 were being asked for deposition? 2 A. Yeah. I mean. obviously -- 3 A. I wasn't following that case. I was only 3 SPECIAL MASTER POZZUOLI: Short of that. 4 interested in the fact that I was being asked to be 4 A. — I'm not the talking about material. 5 deposed on. A. lawyer-client privileged information 5much of which I got from lawyer-client privileged 6 or. B. facts that weren't true: namely an allegation 6information. But I can't talk about that. 7 that I had observed young women in the presence of 7 So I will talk about another person called 8 Jeffrey Epstein. I didn't focus on the nature of 8me, I don't remember the date, who had sued you. 9 the case at all. 9because he said you had -- 10 Q. So did David Efron provide you with 10 BY MR. EDWARDS: 11 newspaper articles about the Rothstein matter or did 11 Q. Wail. We haven't left the Rothstein 12 he my Brad Edwards participated in a major fraud 12matter yet we're going to move to that -- 13 with Rothstein? 13 A. He told me about the Rothstein matter. 14 MR. SIMPSON: Object to the form and -- 14 Q. Oh, really? Okay. 15 object to the form. 15 A. Yeah. So he c