Document text
STATE
New York
Forms to be Filled out for Eacn Irterview
FORMA
Circumstances of Interview
NAME OF WORKER Herman Spector
ADDRESS 701 Crotona Park N. New York Cit.
DATE December 14, 1938
SUBJECT HO -4 DOES SHE COIJE TO HIM?
1. Date and time of' interview
December 12, 1938
2. Place of interview 1370 Clinton Ave.
3. Name and address of informant Sam Goldstein, 1370 Clinton Ave.
4. Name and address of person, if any, who put you in
touch with informant.
FOLKLORE
NEW YORK
(See interview of 12/12/38--"0 Happy distances." --for full informations)
5. Name and address of person, if any, accompanying you
6. Description of room, house, surroundings, etc.
(Use as many additional sheets as necessary, for any of the forms, each
bearing the proper heading and the number to which the material refers.)
FORM C
Text of Ilterviow
STATE NEW YORK
NAME OF WORKER HERLIAN SPECTOR
ADDRESS 701 Crotona Park N. New York City
DATE DECELDER 14, 1938
SUBJECT HOW DOES SEE CUE TO HIM?
(cnediteC)
FOLKLORE
NEW YORK
JOE EINSTEIN WAS T;;IOT WHAT YOU WOULD CALL WACKY, but he wasn't anything
like his famous namesake either. He was just one of the kids in my old gang
around Brook Avenue, and I remember playing baseball and handball with him when
we were both around fourteen or fifteen. When we grew up, though, we travelled
different paths. He was the type of a guy who wasn't bad at heart, but he mauld
get in with these different gangs. I knew that he was connected with some little
gang around Lc Kinley Square, and then all of a sudden I heard that he sot arrested
for stealing an auto. On top of that, and this is what kills me, I heard that
he's c. -t a gun on him and when they call on him to stop, he starts putting on
speed instead and fires back at the cops.
I really couldn't understand it at the time; it's not at all like him.
It just happens, too, that there's a lot of petty crimes being committed in the
neighborhood, and the judge wants to make an example of somebody, so the kid
is sent up for five or six years, I don't know which. He came out when he was
about twenty-two; the rest of us were all grown up aid had gone out -with women
and everything, and when I saw him I was surprised again to see that he seemed to be
better educated when he came out of the can than before. He'd had time to mad,
you see, and he had a better viewpooint on things: wanted to pick up at school
and make something of himself. But in no time he gets mixed up with a gang
again and finally winds up with Dutch Schultz. Maybe the going was too tough
for a feller without a trade, maybe the cops were spotting him everywheres he
went, maybe he couldn't resist easy money anyhow, he changed back again
pretty quick.
This is during Prohibition. I owned a store on Claremont way, renting
out tuxedos, and whenever Joe is in the neighborhood he drops in to see me. I
wasn't very anxious to have him around, knowing the racket he was in, but it
seems he took a grudge against all his old pals except ma; he figured he could
trust me, I Guess, and he used to tell me all his troubles. At that time he
went around with a car collecting beer bills; a job for a real tough guy, and
Joe had to make out he was alot tougher than he really Was,
He kept flashing a roll and telling me to go around to the speaks
with him: Come on, it's all on the house, he would say. The way it worked
was like this. When he collected, sa, two hundred bucks in one place, he'd
leave about ten there. Gilmne a beer, he'd tell the owner, or just let him
ring it up like that. The Dutchman figured it was a good policy; every
businessman gives out arlittle something to keep goodwill, something like a
discount. Naturally, Joe couldn't take it all out in drinks; he needed a
little help. Besides, it gave him a chance to prove to me what a bigshot he
was, and he always liked to show off.
One day he persuaded me, against my better instincts, to make the rounds
with him. It wasn't busy that day and I had lots of time; I guess that's why
I let him take me along. So we hop into his car and we're off. Then I notice
that while he's driving, he looks out at both sides, and every once in a while
he sort of ducks. When we pass the light at Webster he does the same thing.
"What's the matter, Joe?" I ask. "Oh," he says, as if it's nothing, "the
crazy mick is out again. He'll bump anyone who belongs to the Schultz mob."
That's what they used to call Vincent boll— "the crazy nick" and this was the
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time he and the Dutchman were on the outs. "Say, let me out of herd" I yelled,
I've got things to dos" But Joe insisted everything would be alright and he
drives over to a certain place in Eastchester.
It's a regular speak there; after he collects the dough that's coming
to him he throws down a ten-spot. Give us a couple of drinks, he says and
Keep the change. So we're drinking, and it's pretty good stuff, too, and then
the storekeeper opens up with his troubles. He's sick of the feud, and he wants
Joe to set the Dutchman to patch things up. "I can't keep refusing to buy from
the mick", he tells him. "He'll bust up my joint. I got a wife and family.
I can't afford to take chances." You're taking beer from the Dutchman, Joe
tells him, and that's all you gotta know. He's treating you right, ain't
he? So don't be foolish. And he signals to me, and out we walk.
I'm shaking in my shoes all the time, understand. If one of those
Coll babies came across us, I'd have been cooked. So when we get outside
turn to Joe: "For chrisssakes, this ain't no joke/ It's alright foirou
maybe, this is your bread and butter, but it doesn't mean a cent to Ele• I've
got a mother to take care of, aad she's expecting me home tonight." And I
made him take me over to the ::orris Park trolley line, and I got into a trolley
car and went home, and believe me, I felt I had escaped from the jaws of death.
don't care how much dough this guy makes, I said to myself, from now on I stick
to my awn business°
But the story I wanted to tell you is about later on, after repeal,
yhdm Joe and I went into business together. Of course, the bottom fell out of
his racket at that time, and I wasn't doing anything either. I met Joe, and
he seemed to be on the up -and -up, so I thought it mould be a good idea to use
his experience and contacts and go into the liquor business in a small way,
and maybe work it up to something big. It sounded alright, and I still think
we could have made out if Joe had attended to business. We bought a car on
partnership, an old Hupmobile, and we figured we'd go back to Joe's old
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customers, who were selling the stuff legitimate, and we'd get an order
for a case here and a case there, and we'd make a living on commissions.
About this time Joe becare infatuated with some girl; a real nice
girl nice face, nice figure I don't know how she comes to Joe. He knew
her from before, when he was earning and spending big money in the racket,
and maybe
that's what attracted' her.
frl have more use f han for any other skirt; women were just something you
picked up for awhile, got a little pleasure out of, and forgot about. He
used to treat her lousy at first, but she stuck to him. Then one day she
decided to give him up, and his whole feeling about her changed. He became
nuts about her, and dogged her trail, but she wouldn't have anything to do with
him. Funny the way those things happen
But it was hell on the business. Instead of going out for orders
with .:e, Joe would sit hone moping or get drunk. I tried to go out to
these places without him, but of course it was no go. Everybody gave
me excuse, it was one thing and another thing, and no orders coming in.
This here love -bug of Joe's was ruining me. Every evening, about the time
he sobered up, he'd make me walk up and down Jerome Avenue with him until
midnight, while he talked about this girl of his. He started to cursc: her and
call her all sorts of nanes, but it was easy to see he couldn't et along
without her. He really wanted to marry the girl then, but she wouldn't take
any part of him. He wanted to dig up her address, he didn't knaw where she
was, but he knew her sister and he kept telling her that the girl was no good
and he didn't want to see her go wrong. Just let me talk to her, he pleads,
I'll make her see things in the right way.
It vent on like that until one day I go to the garage and I see
the car is missing. Then I find out that Joe took the car out about
two o'clock in the morning and nobody has seen him since. Then, the next
In the beginning, I understand, he didn't
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afternoon, I get a telegram; it's from him. I'm up here in Sing -Sing, he
says, hurry up and get me out. So I rush up there and get the whole story.
He finally dug up this girl, you see, and he took her for a ride in the
car and tried to convince her to go back with him. So he keeps talking
and talking to her, and she keeps saying no, nothing doing, and they keep
riding and riding. And I suppose they stopped off at roadhouses on the
way, and he got drunk. The first thing you know, he flew into a tree with
the car our car, since I owned half of it and they both got bruised up.
:k)rse than that, as far as I'm concerned, the car was smashed. This was right
near an inn, and it happened that Joe knew tee proprietor, so tney went there
to root up.
A couple of state troopers came along, and seeing the smashed car,
they go to the inn to investigate. Joe and the girl is in a room upstairs,
and the troopers go up with the owner and they ask Joe to COMO Out; they
just want to ask him routine questions about the accident. Lut this dumb bue;er
has to act tough. "I won't come outs" he yells, "you'll have to break the door
down" The troopers wore sere, but the proprietor, who knows Joe, tries to get
him to be reasonable. Yothine aping, finally they try to open the door with
a key, but Joe has a key too, and he's lccked it on his side. 2y this tiee
the cops are exasperated, and they break the door down and put Joe in the cooler.
When I get there, the girl is crying on the bed. "You're his friend,"
she pleads with me, "can't you get him out? You're a legitimate guy; go up
there f)ad tell there you'll be responsible for hie" I didn't like the idea
at all, but I worked it cut with the innkeeper, who was friendly with the cops,
and he tells them that Joe is 0. K., he jst likes to think he's a tough mug,
and now thnt he's cooled off he won't make any more trouble. And, luckil
enough, they don't find out anything about Joe's record, and we get him out.
eut do you think he acted as if we had saved him from a rap? 02 course
he appreciated what I had done, but he turned sour and bitter on the girl
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and kept calling her all kinds of names. Honest, as we stood on the
platform waiting for the train to come in, he was so abusive and kept
calling this girl such filthy names that I was ashamed to be seen with them.
He wouldn't even sit with her in the train, so I took turns sitting beside
both of them. After all, I had nothing against the girl, it wasn't my argument,
and I pitied her. By the time we got to Grand Central he was sobered up, but
he wouldn't say a word, and the girl went one may and Joe and I went another.
That was the last I saw of her.
And that was the end of the partnership, too; the end of the business, aid
the end of the car. He still owes no a hundred bucks, and if it was my money
I wouldn't care so much, but it was money I had to borrow from poor people
who really couldn't afford it, they gave it to me just to try to help me
make a go of the business. So I'm pretty washed up as far as Joe Einstein
is concerned. What is he doing now, you ask? Well, I heard conflicting
reports. One says he got stabbed in a fight, which you can believe, but
someboply else says he's in Florida, in some other racket, and making money
hand over fist. You can take your pick.