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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #82
-March 7, 1993
4:03 P.M. - 5:50 P.M.
Tape 82!
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DICK: - you have not lost any rights, you
will not lose any rights. All you have to do is
exercise those rights. And to do that is a simple
natter: come out and make your voice known. That's,
that's it, simply; it's simply that. Y
WAYNE: My voice is already known. Everyone
knows that you have a practicing attorney, under siege
DICK: Well, let's practice then, Wayne.
WAYNE: - under siege cutoff from the
courts. Everyone knows that. How do you, how do you
think that looks for you?
DICK: Come out and practice. That's all we
ask, Wayne, nothing more.
WAYNE: That's funny, that's funny.
DICK: Nothing more. You come out and you
use the education and the experience that you have to
represent those people along with others to represent
those people inside and to ensure that the information
that you want to furnish the outside world is furnished
to them so that the inquiry can go forward so that this
will never happen again; so if there are agents
involved in wrongdoing that, that they're handled
appropriately and the matter will go forward. As long
as you're staying in there we can't go forward with
that part of this whole incident. All of us want to do
an-
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re not here because we enjoy being here.
WAYNE: You enjoy what you're doing.
FBI and yo
to me, ple
you. You
videotape.
long have
going on h
know was t
FBI did no
at that tiDICK: I don't enjoy what I'm doing --
WAYNE: There are a bunch of perverts in the
u knew it. M
DICK: Well --
WAYNE: You enjoy what you do.
DICK: - explain that to me. Explain that
ase.
WAYNE: Well, I don't have to explain that to
know_J, Edgar Hoover's record. You know the
You know the books written about him: How
you been with the FBI?
DICK: A good long while.
WAYNE: Who recruited you?
DICK: What does that have to do with what's
ere today?
WAYNE: I'm asking you a question. Don't you
he director when you joined the FBI?
DICK: Well, you know, the director of the
t recruit me personally. You know that.
WAYNE: No, but --
DICK: Are you asking me who the director was
me?
WAYNE: Somebody that worked for him did.
DICK: J. Edgar Hoover was the director at
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that time, yes.
WAYNE: Yeah, see, I knew it. I just knew
it.
' DICK: You just knew that?
WAYNE: Oh, yeah, I knew that.
DICK: Well, you know --
WAYNE: Because your agency hasn't changed.
DICK: - the answer is right there. The
answer is right there.
WAYNE: Your agency has not changed in all of
these years. I _ Y,
DICK: It hasn't?
WAYNE: It has not.
DICK: Well, there have been many people that
have suggested that it has.
WAYNE: Well, then why is William B. Sessions
being kicked out?
DICK: William B. Sessions is not being
kicked out. When, when did you get that pearl of
wisdom?
WAYNE: The whole nation knows that the
bureaucracy within the FBI cannot get along with its
director, William B. Sessions.
DICK: Well, that's not at all true.
WAYNE: That is true.
DICK: You read in the newspaper certain
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accounts presented by certain people. You think that
is, is the answer, what you read in the newspaper?
It's absolutely not the answer. All --
' WAYNE: I'd like to read my newspaper, you
know, I paid for
Who's getting my
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
WAYNE:
office telephone
DICK:it. Who's getting
mail?
Now, Wayne, let me
Who's taking care
There's no ~-
Who's got my,
all rigged up?
Not, not the F
what you're going to suggest?
WAYNE:
DICK:
you know that is
WAYNE;
attorney.
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
because you know
WAYNE:
your name on the
means, Dick.
DICK:I'll
BImy newspaper?
ask you something.
of my clients?
my, my, my law
Is that, is that
You said you're in charge.
No, I - Wayne, you're an attorney and
100 percent inaccurate, 100 percent.
Law of agency, Dick. I'm an
Okay»-
I know about the law of agency.
That makes me, that makes me in charge
about the law of agencies?
That means you get to be - you get
lawsuit. That's, that's what it
Come on ahead. Come on ahead. I'm
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willing, I'm willing --
WAYNE! Fine.
DICK: - I'm
can get this resolved.
WAYNE: -- you
link with the outside --
DICK: It will
WAYNE: - and
lawsuit, okay?
DICK: David -
you my business card and
lawsuit.
WAYNE: Where
card?
DICK: As soon
to hand it to you.
_ WAYNE: That's
DICK: I'll be
I'll leave it at a placeThen you open -- ' '
willing to accept that if we
open, open up a communication
be opened.
we'll put your name on the
- I mean, Wayne, I will leave
you can name me in this
can I pick up your business
as you come out I'll be there
funny.
there to hand it to you, or
of your choosing.
WAYNE: I, I guess you'll put it on my body
as a body count won't yo
DICK: Wayne,
it's
WAYNE: It's n
DICK: You're
that is absolutely untruu?
that is unreasonable, it's,
nonsense and you know it.
ot nonsense.
an attorney. You know that
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WAYNE: I know your government has been
corrupt ever since it killed its leader back in what
was it, '63, and failed to investigate and find out who
did it, who was responsible for it.
DICK: If you have those answers, Wayne,
please make them available to us at your earliest
convenience.
WAYNE: When is the investigation going to
start?
DICK: As soon as you folks come out of there
so we can get it -- we're already starting the
investigation. The congressional inquiry has already
been set in motion, all right? Obviously, to, to
complete it
WAYNE: Really? Whose committee? Who's the
chairman? '
DICK: I - you know what, I haven't read a
newspaper since I've been in, in this city, not one
newspaper - '
WAYNE: Well --
DICK: - not one.
WAYNE: somebody's reading my newspaper.
DICK: Well, I'll tell you if it'll make you
happy we'll ensure that your, your newspaper is
delivered to you as long as you like.
WAYNE: As long as I like?
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agreement concerning, concerning --
agreementsDICK:8
Listen, David, once again we made an
WAYNE: I'm not going to discuss David's
DICK:- the third seal. T
WAYNE: I'm not going to discuss David's
agreements with you.
though -
make an agreement
done then?
public.
for three
okay?
make --DICK: All right. I'm suggesting to you
WAYNE: I don't think you're competent to
DICK:
WAYNE
DICK:
WAYNE
DICK:
days?
WAYNE:
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
WAYNE:Really?
Really.
Okay. How, how would you suggest it's
:' I think it should be done in the
Absolutely. What have we been saying
I'lI agree with you --
So put, put, put David's --
- 100 percent.
-- agreement out there in the public,
100 percent. David can come out and
And let David discuss it.
an
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DICK: Absolutely. We've asked him to do
that, put David - " '
WAYNE: With the public.
DICK: What have we been asking him to do fo
three days? -
WAYNE: You've been lying.
DICK: Do you get any kind of feedback in
there?
WAYNE: You've been lying to the public.-
You've been saying that you used no military weapons
here. Three choppers with machine guns blazing at us?
DICK: Wayne, that is completely untrue.
WAYNE: That's completely untrue, huh?
DICK: There were helicopters. Not one
helicopter had a machine gun in use.
WAYNE: There was a chopper that was tearing
apart rooms in this building not identifying any
targets. .
DICK: David'- Wayne, if you have that
information come out and share it with us, okay?
WAYNE: It was David Koresh's room.
DICK: If you have people in there that know
that to be true then obviously we want to have that
information. ATF '
WAYNE: Well, if, if our people can come
out --9
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DICK: Listen, Wayne --
WAYNE: -- and talk to the --
DICK: - listen.
WAYNE: - public then how come Catherine
Madison hasn't been allowed to talk to the public?
When is she going to get her press conference? What
about her rights?
DICK: Wayne, let's talk about here and now.
WAYNE: No, let's talk about that for a
second.
_. DICK:. Refresh my memory. Catherine Madison?
WAYNE: You need refreshing? What did you do
to her?
DICK: Who is Catherine Madison?
WAYNE: Is she still alive?
DICK: You talking about the Catherine
Madison that was inside there?
WAYNE: Aren't you talking about us coming
out there? "'
DICK: Absolutely.
WAYNE: Okay. So, we have --
DICK: She is a material witness.
WAYNE: - we have.
DICK: She is a material witness. She's not
been charged. She is a material witness.
WAYNE: Look. I'm not going to believe you
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DICK:
WAYNE:asn't been charged.
Did you hear --
Don't waste my time.11
DICK: -- did you hear the press, did you
hear the press,
WAYNE:
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK;
information --
WAYNE:
nzcxi
make a statement
come up with som
WAYNE:
shall be. You,
about what is.the, the press --
Let me talk to the press.
You will.
No, let me talk --
You will have every --
-- to them now.
,Wayne, when I offer you
Give me back my rights.
-- you reject it, okay? Every
as to what is, then you refute
ething else.
No, you make statements about
you haven't made any statementstime I
it and
what
to me
DICK: What is is that we offered you, that
you meaning collectively, the, the bunch of you, the
folks out there in the compound, a lot of different
options.
WAYNE:
DICK:No, you haven't.
You have made --
WAYNE: You've made a lot of ultimatums --
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DICK: You have made --
WAYNE: -- a lot of threats " '
DICK: David has made some agreements --
' WAYNE: -- a lot of demands. You sit your
tanks on our cemetery.- You know, that's a, that's a
criminal offense in the State of Texas?
DICK: Then, then charge us.
WAYNE: When is the sheriff going to --
DICK: VCharge us.
WAYNE: - do something about that?
__ _DICK:_ When_are you going to come out of
there? Let's get it done. You put -- if you think
that we -- what we have done is illegal then you file
the, the suits.
WAYNE: I think you're a bunch of perverts,
really. " '
DICK: Well, you're - once again you're
entitled to your opinion. I certainly wouldn't
question your opinion:' You have the right to offer
that. I obviously disagree with it but you have the
right to offer --
WAYNE: Well, you're asking us to surrender
to an agency of the government that had a pervert for
its leader at the time that you were recruited. Now,
come on, Dick, really.
DICK: You think I'm going to sit there --
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here and engage you in debate about a man that has been
dead since 1973? "
WAYNE: He hired you.
DICK: What is your point there? What is
your point? - '
WAYNE: You met his standards, right? So I'm
supposed to trust you?
DICK: Wayne, you're an attorney. You can
advise those folks inside about the procedures that
need to be followed, that must be followed, and that
will be followed. ,1
WAYNE: I've advised them how you have broken
the constitution over and over again.
DICW: Okay. Again, if that's what you
believe - A
WAYNE:' Every moment that you deny them
access to the media you are violating their Bill of
Rights.
DICK: Wayne, I'm not going to sit here and
debate you.
WAYNE: Now, I cannot advise those people to
trust you --
DICK: Well - A
WAYNE: - to have confidence in you.
DICK: -- those people apparently are relying
on you and if you're giving them that type of
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information then you're doing them a disservice.
You're doing them a disservice. They had legitimate,
honest questions which they posed to me. I asked them
to talk with you in addition to accepting the
information from me and that you should be able to
provide them that sort of information. Now, if you
have chosen not to or if you've chosen to give them
erroneous information then that is your responsibility,
it is not mine. If they rely on you for the truth and
you give them lies or inaccuracies or untruths, then
that is unfortunate because those people need to rely
on you.
WAYNE: You came out here, you violated the
Fourth Amendment on search and seizure.
DICK: Really?
WAYNE: Really. You're denying them their
First Amendment access to, to --
DICK: You're aware that they had a search
warrant, are you not, and an arrest warrant? Are you
aware of that?
WAYNE: You don't serve a warrant by piling
out of vehicles with your guns blazing.
DICK: Well, if that's what was done then
make that known to the appropriate people and
appropriate courts and appropriate judges and the
appropriate jury.
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WAYNE: No, you listen for a second. If
that's what was done, you charge those people, you
investigate those people and you dismiss the charges -
~ DICK: Absolutely. _
V
WAYNE: if they if they're not founded.
DICK: Well, hold it. You mean, you mean to
tell me that you think that we should file charges
because you say that this was done? If that's the
case, come out and talk to us about it. Go before the
appropriate personnel, before the appropriate
magistrate- Give your testimony and then if the
magistrate finds probable cause he will obviously go
ahead and, and charge the ATF. File your appropriate
affidavits and complaints.
WAYNE: Give Catherine Madison access to the
media.
DICK:: Catherine Madison is in protective
custody.
WAYNE: She's already out. Have you
forgotten that?
DICK: That's true, and she's not been
charged.
WAYNE: How come she hasn't had access to the
media?
DICK: I don't know that she hasn't had
access to the media. I don't know what --
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WAYNE: Why don't you ask her?
DICK: Because we're trying to deal with this
issue here. This is --
WAYNE: Because? What, what kind of answer
is that? - '
DICK:i No, listen, you're, you're trying to
dodge the question. You just asked me about --
WAYNE: No, I'm asking the question again.
DICK: No, listen.
WAYNE: Why don't you ask her?
DICK: -I'mtgoing to answer the ATF question
first.
WAYNE: Don't tell me no.
DICK: You said that --
WAYNE: _Tell me yes. Ask her. You got the
phones, you got all of these people working for you,
ask her.
DICK: Wayne, did you ask me a question? I'd
like to respond to the question. You asked me why have
the ATF agents that were involved in the incident on
Sunday not been charged.
WAYNE: I just asked you why Catherine
Madison hasn't been given a press conference.
DICK: Now, hold it, let me answer the first
question first and then I'll go to the second question.
WAYNE: No, you will answer the --
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DICK: That's the way things are normally
done.
WAYNE: - you will answer the question on
Catherine Madison first.
DICK: Listen. I have nothing further to say
to you, Wayne. If you cannot, if you cannot talk with
me and allow me to answer those questions for you then
you and I have nothing more to say to one another.
WAYNE: Who do you want to talk to then?
DICK: I want to talk to David once again so
we can iron out-this,agreement that we had prior to my
dealing with the third seal.
WAYNE: He doesn't want to talk to you. You
want to talk to Steve?
DICK: No. I need to talk to David. David
is the one that 44
WAYNE: He doesn't want to talk to you.
DICK: - David is the one that had agreed to
release those children upon completion of this, this
study and this finding of the third seal. We have done
that once again.
WAYNE: Have you called the, have you called
the faculty of Baylor yet? I was standing here when he
talked to you.
DICK: All right.
WAYNE: Said, you know, call some experts.
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DICK: There are a number
we're in the process of doing and most of which or some1
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of things that
of which obviously I'm not at liberty to tell you. We
will do what we feel is necessary to do, but
want to do is get back to the agreement thatwhat I
we had,
that is David and I, had prior my spending several
hours attempting to research the third seal.
went into the third seal, we talked
length, both of us reading passages
he trying to help me understand the
_- WAYNE:. Okay. Well then,
accountable for the third seal, youHe and I
about it at some
from the Bible and
third seal.
you're, you're
know that? You're
accountable for keeping the truth about the seven seals
from reaching the public right now.
DICK: Wayne, I'll tell --
WAYNE: Do you know that -- what that means?
It means --
DICK: I'll tell you what. You know what?
WAYNE: -- it means, it means that God is
going to hold you responsible.
' DICK:
accept that from
attorney. Let's deal with the area
expertise in andThat's what David tells me and I will
David. However, Wayne, you're an
that you have some
if you have that expertise please use
it to the advantage of those folks inside, all right?
You apparently are the only attorney in there, they've
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asked you for advice and you have the responsibility to
give them the advice that they asked of you.
WAYNE: That's not my problem that I'm the
only attorney that they can talk to. That's your
problem. You're the one that cut them off from all the
attorneys out there.
DICK: Listen, let me --
WAYNE: Don't, don't drop that on me. That's
not my problem. _
DICK: Listen, let's you and I get one thing
straight, okay?. .,_
WAYNE: That's not my problem.
DICK: Let's get one thing straight.
WAYNE: Hey, I'm not working for you.
DICK: The media --
WAYNE: I'm not working for you, Dick.
DICK: The media is available. Are you
finished?
WAYNE: Are you going to change your
attitude?
DICK: Wayne --
E WAYNE: You need to drop that.
DICK: - perhaps --
WAYNE: I'm not the one cutting these people
off from legal advice, you are.
DICK: We're not cutting anyone off from
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legal advice. -The lawyers will be standing in line to
represent you folks.
WAYNE: No, you said right now I'm the only
one. _
DICK: Inside; Are you not the only attorney
inside there with the folks there?
WAYNE: Let's not --
DICK: If, if I'm wrong about that --
WAYNE: -- let's not tease each other. We
got telephones. Patch one in.
1 DICK: -Put Steve on the line
please?
WAYNE: Put Jerry Spence on.
DICK: I'm not putting Jerry
the one that's talking to you now. If
to talk to me, put Steve on.
WAYNE: Put William Kunstler
DICK: I just told you
WAYNE: Oh, you're not going
DICK: - I'm not putting --will you,
Spence on. I'm
you don't choose
on.
to do it?
William Kunstler
will be one of those standing at the head of the line.
WAYNE: Standing where?
DICK: Waiting to represent you folks.
WAYNE: At the mortuary, right?
DICK: Wayne, you know, perhaps you'd better
put somebody else on, okay? Why don't you put Steve
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on, please?
WAYNE: He wants to talk to you, Steve.
STEVE: Hello, Dick? 4
DICK: Yeah, Steve, how are you this
afternoon? Listen, I want to let you know thatf
apparently the repairmen need to do some - need to
access some water pumping -- the pumping station up
there at the T intersection. I just wanted to let you
know that they'll be up there and, and conducting some
business up there.
4 ~5TEVE: All-right.
DICK: Please, make sure that there's nothing
that's done that, that, that's of concern to those
folks. They're just doing their job out there, all
right? ,
STEVE: Well, you know, we haven't done
anything up to this time.
DICK: No, I understand that.
STEVE: Okayl
DICK: I just, I just want to refresh --
STEVE: All right
DICK: -- you know, the rules of safety. I
just want to make sure they're clear in both of our
minds. Listen, I'm going to leave you here shortly,
but let me, let me go over one thing with you if you
will.
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STEVE: All right. I'm listening.
DICK: No, I, I took David at his word. I
did quite a little research in, in --
' STEVE: Okay.
DICK: -- on the third seal, all right? A
significant amount, and I did it - took David at his
word that, that he would, would release those children
once we talked about the third seal. And I didn't tell
him that I had all the answers because if, if I did I
certainly wouldn't be here, would I? I didn't have the
answers, I.don't have the answers, I don't, I don't say
that I do. I'm not arrogant to suggest that I do have
the answers, I'm not disrespectful. What I did do was
attempt to develop some information so that he and I
could talk together and that I could understand
something more than I, I formerly understood about the
third seal. We did that. And then once again, David
elected to suggest that well, I didn't tell him in the
manner that he found acceptable. That, that shows me
that the man is not a man of his word, he's not the man
of conviction, he's not a man of truth. Through these
past days he tells me he's the man of truth. That's
not truthful to do that, you know? I went through
this --
STEVE: Dick, I'm amazed at do you have
Jesuit training or something?
I
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DICK: Absolutely not.
STEVE: Do you know what a Jesuit is? It's a
man that spends a lot of years in, in rationalizing,
reasoning, understanding the psychologies of man and
how to debate and deal with them. You get off on - I
was sitting here when he gave you the challenge, Dick,
in honesty I sat here. He wanted you to go whatever
source it took, whether the Papacy, whether a minister,
whether - any kind of a scholar and bring back showing
where that seal is located. It was a challenge for
your own benefit, for-your ultimate eternal benefit.
If you can show where that seal is, he is wrong in
everything. People --
DICK: No, listen -
STEVE: Listen.
DICK:' Dkay. Go ahead.
, STEVE: Listen, honestly, if you could do
that, if you can do it, people will walk out of here so
quickly seeing that he is not the only one that's --
DICK: I understand that's what he's saying.
STEVE: That is --
3 DICK: However, my --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: - understanding was that I was to
tell him and discuss what the third seal --
STEVE: That --
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DICK: -- is; not where it is --
STEVE: -- I - Dick --
DICK: -- but what it is.
STEVE: -- I, I didn't hear that, honestly.
I heard -- ' f
DICK: Well, my understanding was to -- that
we were to discuss what it was --
STEVE: _Do you have a tape that you could --
DICK: - not where --
STEVE: -- play back, play back of that
conversation? "~ ~
DICK: - not where it is.
STEVE: If you play back the conversation of
what you two agreed to -- I heard what he had to say;
obviously I could not hear what you were saying. But I
did hear what he was saying and, and the challenge was
clear because I saw that in your attempt to do so if
you could find someone, I mean, it is the step of all
steps, people would be out of here. It would show me
also that the man is no different than any other
scholar that has an ability to study that book whether
-- no matter what denomination or no religion. If
someone can show where that seal is located in the rest
of the writings of that book, well then there's no need
to be here at all; his challenge is bogus, it's been
foolishness and it's not been a great experience.
-- 41
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DICK: I'll tell you what. Let's do it this
way. You get together with him, you sit down and write
out that that self same answer. You get together with
David, you put that down on paper in that fashion, you
send it out with some children; we will then do the
research and we will get together at that point. All
right. I want specifically from David that agreement
on paper, all right? I can't accept this any longer
word of mouth, I must have it on paper. You put it on
paper or on tape which you have inside there and you
send it to me, all right? You're telling the, the
people that - you're telling us that he's a man of his
word; we will determine that. You put it down, send it
out with the kids and we'll --
STEVE: Dick --
DICK: -- and we'll get that resolved.
STEVE: - Dick, aren't you a little bit
concerned about this government and, and the direction
that it's - '
DICK: Steve, don't bag the question. I just
asked you to do that.
STEVE: No, no, but I, I listened to attorney
Martin talk to you. I - you know, the first thing
that has bothered me more than anything else?
DICK: What's that?
STEVE: Well, just the very issues he brought
-.» <
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up to you about our constitutional rights, about the
First and Fourth Amendments. I heard him very clearly
DICK: Really?
STEVE: talk to you about it. And there
is no question that there is total disregard for those
rights.
DICK: All right. Listen, I told you
yesterday --
STEVE: You --
DICK: " I put in 22 years as an FBI agent
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: -f I'm perfectly aware of Fourth
Amendment responsibilities, all right? The agents that
were there were there to serve a lawful search warrant
issued by a magistrate -
STEVE: But you --
DICK: a federal magistrate.
STEVE: - you forget. I mean, you might
have been -- your agency, your experience might have
been positive through the years where you've done
things right. And I've never heard, like I told you
before negative things about. I was an eyewitness also
as to what took place. It was the most shocking,
appalling thing that I've ever seen. And to think that
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such a, a power had that ability or was allowed to do
such a thing, what does it tell the human psyche? What
does it tell any individual? I mean, why even make a
move until we see some response as to an investigation
going on and these men that did such a thing? '
DICK: Steve, David challenged me, all right?
Apparently he has it in his own mind that I fell short
of the challenge. I am challenging David and you to
write down the thing that we just talked about which
will set the limits of this, of this agreement.
1' STEVE: Okay. I am going to --
DICK: That is the agreement, to show you the
seals.
STEVE: &- what I will do all that you've
asked, that which you have requested. I'm going to
talk to him about it.
i DICK: You write that down and you send that
out with some children; we will work on it and we will
get it done, if that's"what it takes. You put it down.
Is that too much to ask? No, it's certainly not. You
put it down and we'll deal with that issue. I'm going
to let you go. You get to David. You tell him we'll
take it in one form or another.
STEVE: How long will you be
around Dick, how long will you be around yet today?
DICK: I'll be here for a while yet.
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STEVE: You will? Okay.
DICK: You get to him, you sit down, you
write this up or you put it on tape. I'm asking you
tor one or the, or the other, all right? You send it
out with the children 4- some children. We will then
agree. I will get back to you then or a representative
of, of, of the team here, we'll get back to you. We
will get it straight and we will do this. David says
if we do that he will come out. We will take the man
at his word. I want it on paper. I want it on paper
or on tape. ~~ -="
STEVE: Well, of course, you know, I'm going
to have to ask him about the statements you said he
made --
DICK: Well --
STEVD:- -- about his coming out in regards to
- he, he said about himself, the group, tell me?
Because I didn't hear.
DICK: All right. You, you get with him --
STEVE: All right.
DICK: - and you ask him what it is that he
said, okay? You tell him that Dick has issued the
challenge to him and I expect him to accept that
challenge, I expect him to sit down and do that,
because that's what he tells me that he will do and
that's, that's his counterproposal to these things that
D 4
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we have offered; he has come to us with this suggestion
and we're willing to work on it. I will get back to
you; you get to David and, and you tell me what your
response to that is. _
STEVE: How much time is it that you want?
DICK: Well, it doesn't -- shouldn't take but
a few minutes.
STEVE: _Well, just tell me so I can plan on
being back at the phone here.
DICK: Okay. It's 4:30. I'll be back to you
at~5 o'clock. ~"" ~"
STEVE: Sounds good.
DICK: Very well.
STEVE: Talk to you then.
DICK: Goodbye.
STEVE: Bye.
i**~k*
STEVE: Hello?
DICK: Steve? Dick.
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: Did you get ahold of David?
STEVE: He's right here.
DICK: All right. Let me speak with him,
please.
STEVE: Okay. Just a moment.
Pause!
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STEVE: Me first? Okay. He said talk to me
first. He's trying to finish his meal right now. He's
just eating here, finishing up here.
DICK: All right. Did you.propose to him
what I suggested? ' '
STEVE: Yes, I did.
DICK: What was his response?
STEVE: He hasn't given me one.
DICK: All right. Well, perhaps he wants to
give it directly to me.
" STEVE: Apparently so.
DICK: Good. I'll, I'll wait here until he
finishes his meal and, and we'll get it down on, on
paper or tape and --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: ; we'll move on.
STEVE: Shall I I'll tell you what. As
soon as he's done, or as soon as he's done eating his
meal there I'll call you back then.
DICK: All right. Call me right back.
STEVE: Okay, and David's telling me right
now he wants to send some pictures out to you.
DICK: That's fine. We'll, we'll be happy
to.
STEVE: That's fine.
DICK: We'll be happy to. You can send them
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out with the ki-ds.
STEVE: Did you want to still talkito some of
the women or the babies?
DICK: Certainly, we'll be happy to.
STEVE: He said certainly, he'll be happy to.
DICK: I'll talk with them until David
finishes his meal.
STEVE: _All right.
DICK: It's my understanding he's going to
send you some pictures with some kids? _
" STEVE: Apparently so. I - I don't know
about the kids. Ask him or them. I mean, I don't know
that. Okay. Do you want to talk to him? Do you want
to talk to him? I've got someone just smiling at me.
They act like they don't want to, but here they are.
Go ahead. He's --
DICK: Tell them I don't bite, I don't bite.
STEVE: I, I - go ahead.
DICK: Hello?
JULIE: Hello?
DICK: Who's this?
JULIE: Julie.
DICK: Julie, how are you?
JULIE: Okay.
DICK: Listen, I know you have some questions
and some concerns and you may be somewhat reluctant to,
i0 0
32
to ask me. Please don't, don't hesitate. I'll be able
to answer questions for you. Do you have children in
there?
JULIE: Yes.
DICK: How many children do you have?
JULIE: Five.
DICK: Five children? What are their names,
Julie, and what is your last name?
JULIE: Well, I'm Mexican.
DICK: Pardon me?
JULIE: I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm Mexican.
DICK: All right. Well, what's your last
name?
JULIE: Huh?
DICK: What's your last name?
JULIE: Martinez.
DICK: Martinez?
JULIE: Um-hum.
DICK: All right, and what are the names of
your children and how old are they?
JULIE: Just a minute.
Pause!
JULIE: We'll send some pictures out with
their ages.
DICK: Okay. You going to send the kids out
with some pictures? Is that --
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JULIE: N0.
-- is that Audry, Abbey and Joseph? DICK:
JULIE: Yeah.
DICK: That's three of them? Who are the
:
other two?
JULIE: It's Crystal.
DICK: Crista? And who old is Crista?
JULIE: Crystal.
DICK: Crystal, I'm sorry. Crystal is how
old?
~ JULIE:~ Well, they said, you know, we're
going to be sending out some pictures.
DICK: Okay. with the kids, with, with
Audry, Abbey and Joseph and Crystal? You're sending
them out with the pictures?
JULIE: No. We'll send a picture of them.
DICK: Oh, okay. And what, what, what's the
name of your other child?
JULIE: Isaiah.
DICK: I'm sorry? Josea?
JULIE: Isaiah.
DICK: Isaiah. Okay How old is Crystal?
JULIE: Well, they're going to put their age
on the picture.
DICK: Okay. So you have pictures of the
children that you're sending out?
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25JULIE: Yeah.I
34
DICK: All right, and you're sending out
pictures of other children as well?
JULIE: I suppose so.
DICK: Okay. "Do you want to come out with
your children?
JULIE: Well, not at the time, no.
DICK: Well, David has given me his assurance
that you're, that you're able to leave just by telling
him that. So please, if, if you feel more comfortable
leaving with your children I'm sure David will
understand that and, and he'll welcome and allow you to
do that.
JULIE: Well, if I go out all you guys are
going to do is put me in prison.
DICK: No, that's not true at all. That's
not true at all. Not, not everybody is going to be
charged. Not everybody was involved in the shooting,
and in addition to that, you may
defense defense anyway because I
there are convinced that the ATF
and if --
JULIE: Yeah, well, my
the room right above the door --
DICK: Sure.well
know
came
IOOlI92have a self-
the fellows in
up there shooting
was - my room is
JULIE: -- and my you know, I'm surprised,
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you know, we're still alive.
DICK: How old is Crystal?
JULIE: Three.
DICK: Okay, and Isaiah?
JULIE: Well *-
DICK: Young, younger than Crystal?
JULIE: N0.
DICK: Little older than Crystal?
JULIE: Yeah.
DICK: Okay. Well, listen, you know, I, I
know what that you -- you know, you have to report
what you saw. Okay. I wasn't there, others were not
there in the same room with you. If you are in a room
with bullets coming through the walls and that sort of
thing then you have to let the authorities know.
JULIE: 'I just barely had time to, to get my
children and duck to the floor, you know -
DICK: Okay.
JULIE: - drop down to the floor.
DICK: Well, then you need to report that,
you need to report that to ensure that it never happens
again. And a way for you to do that and, and at the
same time to provide the care and love that your
children need is to come on out with them.
JULIE: Well --
DICK: Do you have some questions for me? I
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know you're concerned about going to jail, but I'm
telling you that not everybody is going to go to jail.
Look how many people are in there. You think that all
of you are going to jail? See, that's just not
~
accurate. '
JULIE: Yeah, but I mean, you know --
DICK: I know this is a scary thing for you
because you've not been through anything like this.
None of us have. None of us have been through this.
But I know there are some questions that you probably
want to ask that, that I can, that I can clear up for
you. I hope David or, or Wayne didn't tell you that
you were all going to jail because that's just
absolutely --
JULIE: .No, they didn't.
DICK} Okay. Well, that's not true and, and
that's just not accurate. What we're going --
JULIE: David -- you know, David tells us
that if we want to go -- he told me that I -- if, if I
wanted --
DICK: Okay.
JULIE: - to go I could go.
DICK: Well then, if you want to go ahead.
You know, if you don't want to I'm not -- obviously I
can't force you to leave and if, if you --
JULIE: I just don't -- you know, I'm not --
K
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DICK: Do you want to send the kids out then
and you stay and send the kids out?
JULIE: I don't know what you guys are doing
to our kids.
DICK: Okay." Well, let me explain that to
you. I can answer that for you. All the kids are
together and they're being cared for awaiting the
return of their parents.
JULIE: But I'm hearing a lot of things on
the radio.
~ ~DICK:. Yeah, but what you're hearing what
are you hearing that you're concerned about?
JULIE: The what?
DICK: what, what are you hearing that you're
worried about? 1
JULIE: Well, that, you know, how the kids
are all - that they're, you know, messed up in their
mind and that, you know, just because they're well
behaved that they're, they're not normal and, you know,
are they being treated --
DICK: Well, I hope that's not accurate.
JULIE: - are they being treated like, you
know, there's something wrong with them?
DICK: Absolutely not.
JULIE: No?
DICK: You know, no one that I am aware of
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will ever mistreat a child. You know, some --
JULIE: Well, they did here. They came and
shot at us when we -- they knew that we had a lot of
children here. L
DICK: Well, that's -- if that's what you
believe happened then that's what you need to tell the
courts, you need to tell the newspapers, you need to
tell the TV people, you need to tell everyone that.
You as a parent must tell people that. It's very
important that you do so it won't happen to somebody
else or somebody-else's children. Please do that. We,
we welcome that. ATF will tell their side of the story
so it's absolutely essential that you tell your side.
But if nobody comes out then that can't be done. So
how are people going to come up with answers if they
don't know what happened?
JULIE: I don't know.
DICK: Well, you need to start thinking about
it. " '1
JULIE: Well --
DICK: That's, that's what you have to do.
You have the responsibility as a parent to care for
your children and provide the children with love and
affection and care and you can't do it while they're in
there under these conditions.
JULIE: I don't know what to do. I don't --
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DICK: Well, I can tell you what to do.
JULIE: I want to talk to my brother.
DICK: Well, you'll be able to talk to your
brother. Give me your brother's name. ,
JULIE: His name is Joe Santoyo.
DICK: Joe?
JULIE: Yeah.
DICK: Santoyo?
JULIE: Santoyo, SA-NT0YO.
DICK: All right. What's his telephone
number? '
JULIE: Just a minute. He lives in, in Mesa,
Arizona.
DICK: All right.
JULIE:
02! --And it's Area Code 02! --
DICK:
JULIE: -- 464--
o1cx= -- 464--
JULIE: -- 4325.
DICK: - 4325. All right. I can tell by
talking to you that you would feel very much more
comfortable if you send your children out. Tell David
you'd like to send the children out with the pictures
that he's going to send --
JULIE: I, I --
DICK: Listen, send them out. I know you
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want to send your children out. I can hear it in your
voice and I understand that. You're concerned about
your children as good mothers are. I know you want to
leave. I know you want to send your kids out. Please
send your children out. David will let you send --
come out. David has repeated that you're all free to
go and that if you stay it's your choice, so please let
it be that if you, if you choose to stay. But your
children are not old enough to make those decisions.
Send them out.
JULIE:~ They don't want to go.
DICK: Well, listen, come on, please --
JULIE: They, they said they don't want, you
know -- -
DICK: That ~-
JULIE: - that, that they want to be with
me.
DICK: Well, you come out with them. You
come out with them. There's no reason you can't --
JULIE: If, if, if I go out I mean, you know,
being here is the only way that we could be together.
If I go out you guys are going to separate us.
DICK: Listen. I've sent photographs in,
I've sent tapes in.
JULIE: But you won't let, you won't let me
be with my children if I go out.
P
~ 24O O 92
41
DICK: Well --
JULIE: They'll put my in jail and they'll
take them away.
DICK: The two ladies that left did not --
they're, they're - protective custody for a short
while but you'll be reunited with your children. It's
your - you know, it's your responsibility to make
decisions for those kids until they're old enough to do
that. They are certainly not old enough to do that
now, are they? Do you think your children are old
enough to make those kinds of decisions now? They're
not. You know that. I know - I can tell you're a
caring parent just talking to you. I, I know it's,
it's, it's rough,.but David has assured us that you're
free to go and you're certainly free to send your
children out. Please, as a parent send your child out
- send your children out. They'll be well cared for.
We have your brother Joe's name. We'll be in touch
with Joe. We'll provide all the care and custody for
the children.
JULIE: I want to talk to my brother.
DICK: Well, you can talk to your brother as
soon as you come out, but right now send the children
out. I will call your brother and explain that while
you would like to come out you'll send the children out
immediately and that you want to ensure that he knows
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that the kids are here and that you're going to be
reunited with the kids as soon as possible but in the
meantime to please ensure that he knows that the kids
are being cared for properly and - V1
JULIE: I just - I don't know. I know every
time I had a problem or decision to make I always talk
to my brother.
DICK: -Well, you'll, you'll be able to talk
to your brother.
JULIE: Well, I need to talk to him now.
u DICK: I will talk to your brother for you
until, you know, such time as you come out. But send
the kids out._ I'll talk to your brother and I'll make
sure that he watches over the kids until you get out.
I'll explain to him that you've asked me to ensure that
he watches out for your kids on a temporary basis until
such time as you can get together with the kids again.
Tell David that you'd like to send your children out
with these pictures. David will allow you that. David
has given me his word as a gentleman and as, as an
honorable man that, that you're free to go and that
you're free to send the children out if you -- should
you decide to stay behind. Make the right decision.
Make the right decision.
JULIE: Well, that's why I need to talk to my
brother.
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DICKQ I will talk to your brother, You --
JULIE: No, but I need to talk to him.
, DICK: You can talk to him as soon as you
come out. A "
JULIE: No, but that's why I need to talk to
him before I do.
DICK: It's your choice, all right? You can
stay or you can go. You can allow your children to go.
The children as David suggested are innocent, they have
no part of this thing. You as a parent have the
ability to say §§t your coats on and on and go out the
door. Now, if you don't do that then it's your
responsibility, not mine, not anybody else's but yours.
You have the decision, you have the responsibility,
you're a parent, you've given birth to those children
and you must make those decisions, the right decisions,
for those kids until they're old enough to make their
own. You have to do it. I know that you want to do
that because you're a loving parent. Tell David that
you want to send the children out and that you can send
those children out with whatever photos David wants to
send out. I know you want to do that. Don't be
afraid. You tell David that you've made a decision and
that you want to send the children out. You go do --
tell him that right now while I'm talking to you on the
phone. You leave and I'll, I'll keep the phone open.
Q-92
You go
You go
I make
Let's,
it and44
tell David you want to send the children_out.
do that right now, please. '
JULIE: I need to talk to the children before
any decision. I
DICK: Okay. You - well, let's do it now.
let's, let's do it now. I know you want to do
you've made the decision.
JULIE:' I haven't.
DICK: I know you've made the decision. It's
in - I know, I can tell by talking to you you want to
do the
thing.right thing, you need to do the right thing.
JULIE: Well, we all want to do the right
DICK: You can't live with yourself if you
don't do the right thing.- You need to do the right
thing and you know what that thing is that right
thing is. I know you've, you've considered this,
you'veprayed about this and you know it's the right
thing to do. Please. You go tell David that you want
to send your kids out and you give the kids a message
for your, for your brother which I will assure you that
will be delivered to your brother.
JULIE: Well, the kids aren't being taken to
the places where they were supposed to go.
DICK: Listen, we were asked by the folks
there to keep the kids together as long as we can and
if L O I i
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we've done that, we will continue to do that.
JULIE: No, when they first went out they
were supposed to go with --
DICK: What do you mean first? These kids
have been out for several days, they've been out for
several days. They're being well cared for. They're
clean, they're well fed and they're playing together
with one another, with their friends and that'1l
continue to happen. You have to make sure that your
kids are part of that. You've got to take the
responsibility to do that. I know you want to, don't
you? Don't you want to make sure that your kids are
safely cared for? Do you want to do that? I know you
do. I know you do. You tell David that you want your
children to leavei all right? You go do that right
now. You're relieving yourself of pressure. You -
the kids come out and I know you - the weight of the
world is going to be off your shoulders because you
know your kids will be safe and well cared for, and
we'll call your brother. I'll assure you that your
brother will, will watch to make sure those kids are
cared for properly temporarily until you come out and
that you're reunited with the kids. Now, you go tell
David right now. I'll hold the phone. You go tell
David that you want to send the kids out with the
pictures. Will you do that for me?
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JULIH: Um-hum. I _
DICK: Give the phone to the next person. I
will talk to them while you go tell David that you want
to come out, okay? ' v
JULIE: Okay.
DICK: All right.
Pause!
Indiscernible voices in the background.!
KATHY: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
KATHY: Can I talk to him?
STEVE: Sure.
KATHY: HellO, Dick?
DICK: Yes.
KATHY:_ Hi, it's Cathy.
DICK: Cathy, how are you this afternoon?
KATHY: Pretty good.
DICK: Good._ What can I, what can I do for
you?
KATHY: Couple things I just wanted to check
on. Whether or not you've notified Mike's family.
DICK: I gave, I gave that request to, to
others. Of course, I'm here speaking with you folks so
I'm not able to do everything myself.
KATHY: Right.
DICK: But yes, I passed that on and --
--
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KATHY: Can you find out for me if it, if
it's been done?
DICK: It will be done. There are a number
of --
KATHY: Well," I --
DICK: -- there are --
KATHY: -- I'd like to
done. .know when it has been
DICK: All right. Well, I'll get -- try to
get you that information just as soon as I'm able to.
KATHY:' And could you also pass on a message
to my children?
third birthday.
DICK: I know you miss
KATHY:
DICK: No question.Sure I do, and
KATHY: And I love him
DICK: Well, let's get
KATHY: I'd love that,
DICK: All you have toToday happens to be my youngest son's
him, don't you?
he misses me.
and he loves me.
you back together.
you know --
do is open a door.
Open the door and walk up the road. It'll be -- the
first step's the hardest but it's a very short walk.
KATHY: And, and I'm sure you, you really are
honest and you think that way, but you just don't
understand all the complications
obviously.of this government
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DICK: But you do, Cathy? Let's share those
concerns then. What is your concern about you
leaving --
KATHY: David has already told you that.
DICK: Okay, but don't I don't want to
talk about what David has said. You ask me questions
that you want answers for and I'll provide them to you.
KATHY: I didn't, I, I didn't ask you any
questions. I'm just telling you --
DICK: No, but I say if you have concerns ask
me and I'll, I'll, I'll try to explain them to you to
your satisfaction.
KATHY: I don't have any questions. My, my,
my point that I just made was you said all I have to do
is walk out the gate and you think it's that simple.
Maybe you do. Maybe you really think that's all there
is to it. Maybe you're just saying that because you're
that's your job.
WellM§a negotiator and
DICK:
KATHY: I'm saying it's --
DICK: -- that's not the case.
KATHY: - not that simple. I know that it's
not that simple and you should know.
DICK: David told me that it was that simple.
He said all you have to do is indicate an interest in
leaving and you can go. I mean it's that simple.
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KATHY: Oh, I'm sure I could, I'm sure
could.
DICK: David's indicated that.
KATHY: I could walk out that gate any
that I wanted to. ~
DICK: Has David made it difficult for
make decisions?
KATHY: I am 30 years old. I can make
decisions.
DICK: All right.
KATHY:. Okay?
DICK: Let's make it then.
KATHY:
do.
DICK: All right.
KATHY: He tells me what the Bible has
for 6,000 years,
DICK: Umhum.
KATHY:49
I
moment
you to
my own
I David does not tell me what to
taught
okay? It's been in print for ages.
And all he is doing is making it
public. Just give him the chance to make it public and
the whole world will know. That's all.
DICK: Cathy, I want to tell you one more
time that that is his choice. It's, it's available,
that forum is available anytime that he wishes to make
use of it. It will be here, it is here and, and it's
up to him to do it. But sometimes it's difficult to
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2550
take that first step, to do that first thing and that's
what he has to, that's what he has to do. H _
KATHY: And sometimes it's difficult for you
to get us six gallons of milk too.
DICK: The milk is available, has been -
available all day and --
KATHY: Well, where is it?
DICK: It's, it's right up here with -- in
close proximity.~ We can make that available. I told
David that this morning.
KATHY: Is it at our front gate?
DICK:~ No, it isn't at your front gate. It
will be there as soon as you head the kids up the, up
the, the walkway the milk will be there. .
KATHY: If we give you the kids what do we
need the milk for?
DICK: Well, you have more than several
children there do you not?
KATHY: If one of our babies --
DICK: I said four children.
KATHY: -- gets sick and dies because of your
negligence --
DICK: Hold it, hold - Cathy, Cathy, am I
their parent? Am I their parent?
KATHY: Hey, we requested it, you said you'd
bring it.
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DICK: And I, and I continue to say that.
KATHY: You have already promised you would
bring it and you have not done so.
DICK: I will. I told you it's available.
KATHY: Why wasn't it here yesterday?
DICK: It's available today.
KATHY: Well, put it at our front gate.
DICK: Certainly, I'll be happy to. Send the
four kids walking up the road and it'll be there.
KATHY: Why? Why? You have the kids. We
have already given you 21 kids. We didn't get any milk
then.
DICK: David tells me that the children are
innocent. We will all agree to that. The children are
not old enough to make their own decisions.
KATHY: The milk was supposed to be arrived
when Mark left. 1
DICK: Cathy --
KATHY: Since Mark left --
DICK: -- the milk --
KATHY: - Kevin has left and also Heather.
So you want more of our kids just for six gallons of
milk?
DICK: I told David, I told Steve and I, I'm
telling you now that the milk is available.
KATHY: When we give more kids. We're goingJ
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to give more kids and you're still not going to give
the milk. " '
DICK: Really? Well, then --
KATHY: Really.
DICK: I'll tell you, I'll we'll have
the milk put out there. You walk with the children up
there and you can go up and pick up the milk and you
don't have to leave until the milk is there.
KATHY:i Okay. So you --
DICK: Okay?
_ _ 4KATHY;_ -put the milk there
DICK: Okay.
KATHY: - I'll go up and get the milk --
DICK: With the children.
KATHY: - I'll take, I'll take one child
with me and I'll bring that child back here.
End of TAPE #82!
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25U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #83
3/7/93
5:50 P.M. - 6:27 P.M.
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KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- if I dOn't need it
anymore. " '
DICK SWENSEN: No, that's not what I'm
telling you.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If you get the kids, what
do we need the milk for? You get my point? You don't
make any sense, Dick.
DICK SWENSEN: I've asked, I've asked for
four children. I know there are considerably more than
that there.
KATHRYN SCNROEDER: Well, what about the 21
we've already given you? Doesn't that count for
anything?
DICK SWENSEN: What about the remaining 19?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What about the ones we've
already given you? The ones that are out there don't
even want to be out there.
DICK SWENSEN: Really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Really?
DICK SWENSEN: Oh. Why is it that they left?
Why is it that their parents sent them out?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Because their parents
felt that at the time that was needed to be done.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And --
DICK SWENSEN: What's changed their mind?
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KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- you agreed -- nobody's
changed their mind. It's just that -- come on. You
talked to Melissa.
' DICK SWENSEN: Um-hum.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: She'll go. But she
doesn't want to. My children didn't want to leave.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, send Melissa out then.
Pause.!
DICK SWENSEN: The milk's available, Kathy.
You have to make that decision amongst yourself, okay?
V, KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, Dick, you don't
make any sense. _
DICK SWENSEN: Well, then, maybe, maybe --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Why do you say
DICK SWENSEN: - you're wasting your time
talking to me, Kathy, if I don't make sense.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Why do you say, why do
you say the milk's available, we have to make that
decision? Why do you keep saying that?
DICK SWENSEN: Because you're in the position
to make that decision. I am not.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I have made the decision.
DICK SWENSEN: I'm not.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Give us the milk. We've
already given you 21 kids.
DICK SWENSEN: I can only provide it to you,
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I can only provide it to you --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If we send out four more
kids. That doesn't make any sense.
DICK SWENSEN: Listen. I'll, I'll get the
milk to you for two kids.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You get the milk to me
for the two kids that went out Friday.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, perhaps we're wasting
one another's time. All right? Put somebody else on.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I mean, all you want, al
you want to do is bargain?
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy!
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Are you going to bargain
with human lives?
DICK SWEKSEN: Kathy! I've told you what
we'll do and, andlif that's not agreeable to you,
perhaps we're wasting one another's time. All right?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Look --
DICK SWENSEN1 Why don't you put somebody
else on, please? "
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Look, Dick. There are
babies here that need the milk. Are you that inhumane
that you can't just send us the milk for not sending
out kids, or sending out David, or sending out women.
DICK SWENSEN: Our concern, our concern is
for those children first and foremost and the rest of4
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you also. All.right? The children --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: So, your concern is that
these babies get fed the milk they need?
' DICK SWENSEN: Kathy.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It doesn't sound like
you're concerned, Dick.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, you don't want to
listen to me. Okay?
KATHRYN SCHROEDERt And you don't --
DICK DWENSEN: So why don't you put somebody
else on, because obviously you're not listening to what
I have to say.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick --
oxck SWENSEN: 1~11 be happy to talk with
you H
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Say it again, then.
DICK SWENSEN: - if you want to use reason.
Okay?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'll listen to it again.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay. The agreement that I
tried to get David to commit to was to send the kids
once we drop the milk up there. All right? Send the
kids and an adult to pick the milk up and send the
children out. That's the agreement. I went into my
boss and he said we will do it under these conditions.
We have attempted to, to work with you folks and we
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will continue to do so, but we have to, we have to
share in this responsibility. You have to take some
responsibility, we have to take some responsibility.
There's a give and a take, concessions have to be made
by both sides and we're willing to do this. Send the
children out, the milk will be there.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You are willing to do
this --
DICK SWENSEN: What part of that don't you
understand, Kathy?
_. IKATHRXN SCKROEDER: Okay. Your word willing
to. That's the part that I don't understand. You're
willing to do a lot of stuff, but you have not done
what you are willing to do.
DICK SWENSEN: Simply walk out the door and
the milk will be there.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Oh, come on, Dick. If we
wanted to walk out this door, don't you think we would
have done that days ago?
DICK SWENSEN: I'm suggesting to you that you
can verify that the milk is there. we will have the
milk dropped off. Do you want me to tell them to drop
the milk off now, that you're sending the kids out?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Tell them to drop the
milk off right now --
DICK SWENSEN: No. You're, you're only
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hearing --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: and I will go out
there, myself, Kathy, and I will get it.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, you're only hearing
half of what I said. The other half is --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm --
DICK SWENSEN: The other half is, it's
necessary to get the children out.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You told me that.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay then. If, if you don't
agree to that then you and I don't have anything else
to say to one another right now.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And my, my statement to
you that you're inhumane is, is, is unimportant?
DICK SWENSEN: If that's your opinion, you're
welcome to that ohinion.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If, if I don't -- Dick,
what I'm saying is you're saying that we don't have
anything to say to each other because I do not agree
with your stipulations. That's -- it's like who's
controlling whose mind here? Dave is not controlling
my mind. You're trying to control my mind.
DICK SWENSEN: I'm not trying to control
anything.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You are --
DICK SWENSEN: You said you want the milk.
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I'm willing to.give you the milk.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. Give me the milk
then.
DICK SWENSEN: You send the children and
that's agreeable. It's a done deal. It's already
there. We'll do it. We'll do it. I'm happy to do it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No you won't do it --
DICK SWENSEN: I told you that early this
morning.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You won't. Even if I
sent all the kids out you wouldn't.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, why don't you try --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You failed --
DICK SWENSEN: Why don't you try me?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- so many times.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay. Listen, Kathy, you're
really -- I know you're upset and that's fine. Why
don't you give it some consideration and if you want to
talk, reason, then we -- you and I will talk together,
but really it's, it's, it's no reason for us to go on
now, because --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Because I won't --
DICK SWENSEN: -- you won't accept --
KATHRYN scnaoznnn: Because I won't accept
your conditions. But you won't accept ours either.
DICK SWENSBN: Well, we have to meet and, and
15.
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I'm willing to bring the milk out.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER2 Okay. We --
DICK SWENSEN: What are you willing to do to
get the milk? That's the question. _What are you
willing to do? " 1 Y
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm willing to, myself,
walk out that gate and be shot by your Bradleys if I
have to and I'll go get that milk.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, you're not going to be
shot by any Bradleys. We discussed
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I, I know that.
DICK SWENSEN: the rules of safety the
other day. Okay? '
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I KHOW that.
DICK SWENSEN: At length and you understand
them, do you not?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yes, I know that.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay. You understand the
rules of safety. It's very clear to you and to the
others in there what the rules of safety are. So let's
deal with the issue of the milk. The milk will be
placed there. You send out the kids, you pick up the
milk, you return to the compound --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What did you give us when
I sent out Scott and Chrissie?
DICK SWENSEN: Listen. would you like a list
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of the things that we've tried to, tried to comply
with? '
. KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Not tried. I mean done.
What have you done. What did you do for me --
DICK SWENSEN: would you like to listen to
the things we've done? For you individually?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, I asked you a
question. Can you please just answer it?
DICK SWENSEN: What have I done for you?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What have you done for
me, for Scott and Chrissie?
DICK SWENSEN: We have provided care for
those children and will continue --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: NO. What --
DICK SWENSEN: -- to do that on a daily
basis.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- have you done for the
people that are still in here in exchange --
DICK SWENSENE We've offered you --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- for Scott and
Chrissie?
DICK SWENSEN: We've offered you the choice.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: To come out.
DICK SWENSEN: It's your choice. The choice
to come out --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's not an offer,
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Dick. That's M _
DICK SWENSEN: Then you stay in. That's up
to you. That's up to you. y
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
DICK SWENSEN:v That's your choice.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: So what you're saying is
all the children that we sent out earlier, we don't get
anything for that.
DICK SWENSEN: You have gotten any number of
things and we've offered to give you a number of other
-.. . _____.'_ _;_..
things. The first thing that we gave you - David's
early condition was that if you allowed him to
communicate -- if we allowed him to communicate
nationally, on television, that he and all the rest of
you would come out. That's a, that's the early effort
that we made. David did not respond to that. We are
offering you all safe passage out of there, humane
treatment, and treatment --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Humane treatment. No
milk for the babies. That's what you call humane
treatment?
DICK SWENSEN: You can have people there to
meet you coming out so that you are can be assured
that you will not be mistreated if that's a, if that's
a consideration. It's, it's, it's not going to happen
that you're going to be mistreated, but if you think
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that you are, we'll get people of your choice --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, do you have any
children?
DICK SWENSEN: Pardon me? .
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Do you have any children?
DICK SWENSEN: Yes, I do have children.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Do you have any babies?
DICK SWENSEN: No longer.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: How old is your youngest?
DICK SWENSEN: My youngest is 14 years old.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Do you know anyone that
has any children that are babies?
DICK SWENSEN: Yes. I know people that have
babies. I know a_lot of people that have babies.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: would you please pass the
message on to them that if they don't have the
to give our babies milk, then they're --
DICK SWENSEN: No.decency
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: - going to get the milk
taken away from their babies.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's up to God
DICK SWENSEN: The baby getting milk
responsibility of you and the other parents in
If you decide that you don't want them to have
milk, then that is a decision that you make asis the
there.
the
adults
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and as parents.
, KATHKYN SCHROEDER: We no, Dick, that's
the decision you made. We asked for the milk, you tell
the public that you're giving us all our demands.
You're wrong. I
DICK SWENSEN: We didn't say we were giving
you all your demands. We said we were trying to meet
you halfway.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You have told, you have
told the public that you are caring for us and taking
care of what we've asked for. We have asked for just
six gallons of milk. We have not --
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- asked you for
anything --
DICK SWENSEN: I think I've told you what our
conditions are. Okay? If you don't choose to accept
them, that is your --
KATHRYN SCHQDEDER: Then you are inhumane.
DICK SWENSEN: - that's your responsibility.
You can, you can call me whatever you want. That won't
change the fact --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: So you don't care about
the babies.
DICK SWENSEN: -- that you're making the
decisions. Kathy, you're making the decision.
.-- 44--v
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KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You don't care.
DICK
the babies.SWENSEN: Well, certainly I care about
' KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No you don't.
DICK
there's no use
there?SWENSEN; Kathy, there's no long :-
in you and I going on like this, is
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Then why are we on this
phone to begin
reporters that
us six gallons
DICKwith. Why aren't we talking to the
will tell the world that you won't give
of milk.
-. ._r'
SWENSEN: Put Julie Martinez on, please.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You don't want that
inhumanity known to the world, do you?
DICK
please. WSWENSEN: Kathy, put Julie back on,
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Julie's gone.
DICKSWENSEN: Well, put her back on.
KATHRYN SCHRQEDER: You upset her already.
DICKSWENSEN: Oh really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yes.
DICKSWENSEN: Well, that's, that's - I
don't believe is accurate at all.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Oh. You won't let her
talk to her family and you don't think she's not upset?
DICKSWENSEN: Do you have something more to
-<_:4O O
15
say, Kathy?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'd like to talk C0
somebody besides you. How's that? '
' DICK SWENSEN: well, I'm here now. John will
be on later this evening if you care to talk with him
later. I'll, I'll ask him to, to set some time aside
for you. Will that, will that is that good? Put
David on, please.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: David doesn't want to
talk to you.
DICK SWENSEN: Well ask David if he's going
to accept my challenge.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He said Psalms 139 is for
you. ~
DICK SWENSEN: I've offered a challenge to
David W _
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: 137.
' DICK SWENSEN: -- the same way he's offered
to me earlier today. I'm offering that challenge to
him and apparently he's, he's not up to it. Is that,
is that what I'm hearing? He's not up to it?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What, what challenge?
DICK SWENSEN: The challenge was for David to
put into writing or on tape -+
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It's not that simple.
We've tried to deal with tapes in the past;
.V'u
4-_ ..»<.-3- 1
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16
DICK SWENSEN: Well, listen. Let me, let me
explain to you. Perhaps you weren't aware of what went
on earlier today. David suggested earlier to me that
he agreed to send children out of the compound - in
fact David brought it up. I didn't offer this,
David --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER2 Right.
DICK SWENSEN: Nor did I suggest it. David
suggested that if we could tell him and discuss the
third seal, that he would release the children. I
spent approximately two, two and a half hours probably
discussing the third seal at length and then David
says, you know, Dick? You didn't do that right. You
failed my test. And as a consequence the kids aren't
leaving. '
So I.suggested to David that that was not my
understanding of this agreement, so I'm issuing him the
same challenge. I apparently failed his challenge.
I'm offering him a challenge, that is, to put onto tape
or write in, in an appropriate form, what he wanted to
discuss concerning the seals.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. If he reveals the
third seal to you, what is the rest of your bargain?
DICK SWENSEN: It's David's bargain. I, I
complied with his bargain.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No - what was the other
.-_- 4
017
half?
DICK SWENSEN: My suggestion is, my challenge
is for him to write up a document - '
K KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And you will do what?
DICK swaussmg Or, or -- listen to me. Or on
tape, put down what he requests from us with reference
to the explanation of those seals. And what he will do
if we're able to tell him what the seals are. Now, I
tried to discuss with him with --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He's already given you
that. , _a W
DICK SWENSEN: Well, that's the third seal.
But he wanted me to go to get some scholars, some
Biblical scholars or some other people that have some
knowledge of the seals and other issues of a similar
nature - ~ ~
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And did you do that?
DICK SWENSEN: Well, I'm willing to do that
if David will put down what he wants done. Because I'm
not going to talk to him again without some sort of a
written agreement, some sort of contract, because he
just doesn't seem to want to comply with his agreement.
So if he puts it down --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Just because you didn't
know the third seal you think he doesn't want to comply
with his agreement?
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DICK SWENSEN: - David and myself.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, was -- i
DICK SWENSEN: Put David on, please.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Was the third seal in
Hosea? Did you see that?
DICK SWENSEN: That's what David tells me and
I saw that after he explained that, but that --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You saw that.
DICK SWENSEN: -- that wasn't the agreement.
The agreement was that we discuss it. And I told David
that I'm not knowledgeable about the seals. I, I was
willing to learn. I was willing to do some research.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
DICK SWENSEN: which was done.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: When you researched it,
did you tell hin the third seal was in Hosea?
DICK SWENSEN: That wasn't what he asked me
to tell him. He told me -- he asked me what the third
seal was and to discuss it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And you didn't - you
were unable to tell him.
DICK SWENSEN: Not, not where it was, but
what it was.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Did you tell him what the
third seal was? _
DICK SWENSEN: Yes. We discussed it at
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length. We discussed the seal at length.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And, and you knew what
the third seal was?
DICK SWENSEN: I had an explanation and he
may not have agreed with it, but I did research it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You had an explanation.
Was it the right one, Dick?
DICK SWENSEN: According to some of the
reference we did, yes. But David disagreed with that,
okay?
.. _ .KATHRXN SCHROEDER: Now, Dick, compare.
Compare the references that you've got. Compare the --
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Just wait a minute,
please. Compare the research that you did and what you
found out and what David showed you on the third seal.
which one was right? Which one was Biblical?
DICK SWENSEN: David's explanation was that
his was and I'm not going to refute that, because I'm
not a Bible scholar.
1 KATHRYN SCHROEDER: David's explanation was
Biblical, straight from the Bible --
DICK SWENSEN: Fine. I'm not disagreeing.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
DICK SWENSEN: I'm not disagreeing at all.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He didn"t renege on his
92
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deal.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, listen. You and I
aren't going to come to any agreement here. Put David
on, please. y
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: David is tired.
DICK SWENSEN: David is tired. That's
David's age old answer when, when I issue him a
challenge he's too tired?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hey, Dick, you don't want
to talk to me. Maybe he doesn't want to talk to you.
~- DICK SWENSEN: That's fine. I'm - issued --
I took up his challenge, he doesn't want to take up my
challenge.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: All right. All right.
I'm make you, I'll make you a deal. I'll make you a
deal. You get usa different negotiator. Okay?
DICK SWENSEN: You'll have one very soon.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And you -- not your night
shift. I don't mean -- you don't come back tomorrow.
Okay? You get us a negotiator that's unbiased, that's
willing to --
DICK SWENSEN: Unbiased, huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Unbiased. That's what I
said.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, perhaps I can ask for
someone out there that's willing to, to, to agree and
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to deal and to make some concessions, some, some
movement off this dime and we'll move forward. So may
I ask for someone that might be able to do that?
i KATHRYN scnnonvzn: We have already done
that. We have done that --
DICK SWENSEN: Really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: - from this end. We are
trying to talk to you, Dick.
DICK SWENSEN: Really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm not stupid.
. DICK SWENSEN: Am I? Are you implying that
I'm stupid?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, just a little.
DICK SWENSEN: Oh. Well, thank you. I
appreciate that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, you didn't agree
that David didn't renege on his deal and I don't see
where you can say he did.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, if you want to talk in
circles --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You didn't have the third
seal and he did. That was his deal.
DICK SWENSEN: Oh, really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You show him the right
third seal and he would send some kids out, you didn't.
DICK SWENSEN: Really? Okay.
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KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You say -- so he didn't
renege.
DICK SWENSEN: All right. Kathy, listen.
Tell David that I will go beyond that. We will forget
that and I'm -- and I will tell him that perhaps I
didn't do as -- what he wanted to do.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: We'll forget that. But
you don't agree that he didn't renege, and that's where
you don't -- we don't want you anymore. If you cannot
agree that you did not have the right answer --
~- DICK SWENSEN: Well, there's been some
misunderstanding. My understanding was something
different than David's apparently, so we can, we can
forget that then. You know, I'll concede that perhaps
I misunderstood what he said._
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, Dick, I'm not --
DICK SWENSEN: Okay? But let's go on to my
challenge to him --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, before you issue
your challenge, David wants to tell you the rules of
the game just one more time.
DICK SWENSEN: That's exactly what I want to
do with him.
DAVID KORESH: Hello, Dick.
DICK SWENSEN: You're back.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, I'm back.
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DICK SWENSEN: Good.
DAVID KORESH: Now, here's the rules of the
game one more time.
' DICK swsusnu: Let's put them on paper. or
on tape. And then we'll have the rules down where we
can both understand them, we can both see them, and
we'll deal with them then. i
DAVID KORESH: All right. Well, when would
you like to pick this up?
DICK SWENSEN: Send - get it down - send it
out with the kids. ,
DAVID KORESH: Oh, for --
Tape 83 ends.!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO S: FIREARMS
TAPE #84
3/7/93
6:27 P.M. - 7:15 P.M.
~
.-
» <2
Tape 84!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello.
JOHN: Hey, Steven.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John.
JOHN: How are you?
smnvn SCHNEIDER: Not too bad. How's
yourself?
JOHN: _Good, good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, good, good --
JOHN: Got a little rest, got a little chow.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was just talking with
David and he was - he's telling me Dick more or less
just struck out with us.
JOHN: Aw, I'm sorry to hear that. How come?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David says he needs to go
back to school. S
JOHN: I guess we all do sometimes, huh?
There's always room for education isn't there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He says so. What he's
telling me right now, he says so far Jim is the best
one.
JOHN: Well, I'm afraid Jim is that makes
me feel bad. I'm disappointed. I thought I was the
best one.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he's just getting to
know you.
Q-- .:<b
JOHN: Well, good. Let, let me, let me tell
you the primary reason I'm calling, Steven..
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: We got a, a call in here, or a note
passed to us actually, by whomever we have up around
the front, up around where you are that somebody was
sticking a long-barrel rifle out the third floor
window, or longbarrel weapon, whatever, third floor
window of the main building there on the construction
end? On the --
' 'STEVE SCHNEIDER: On the left end would it
be?
JOHN: Yeah. I guess if you're standing in
front, looking at the flag --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN:
floor, sticking
STEVE
JOHN:
problems, huh?
STEVE
humored by this
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE~ it would be at the left end, third
a long-barrel weapon out the window.
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
And we don't, we don't want any
SCHNEIDER:
, Dave.
I probably
SCHNEIDER:
Oh.
SCHNEIDER:This - you're going to be
will.
No, no. I'm telling David
He's, he's given me a joke
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here, John is. He said that they don't want any
problems, but someone's spicking a long -- sticking a
longbarreled rifle or something out - facing the
front, it's on the left-hand side, on the third level
out the window.
JOHN: But not facing the front. Facing the
side.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Facing the, facing the --
JOHN: The construction side.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Facing the side, the
construction side. Yeah, John is telling me that with
a chagrin on his face because he's got all these tanks,
with all these muzzles and all these cannons_pointed at
us, and he's worried about --
JOHN: No, I'm just talking about the rules
of safety that we all agreed to.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Now, he's talking about the
rules of safety that we all agreed to and these things
are on our property. They've got -- which you have --
which you agreed to, but which you haven't done, John.
JOHN: What?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right from the time we
talked to Jim -- I
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sunday, late afternoon --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- right into the evening,
between David, myself, and him. Over and over again he
promised, he gave his word, three Bradleys, three --
JOHN: Um-hum. ~
srzvn SCHNEIDER: -- would come up to the
perimeter of the property, not on the property. We had
an agreement that has never been kept by you people.
Dick calls me every now and then and he says that
somebody's got a -- I don't even remember the word,
what it was, but a girl was looking out the window --
'JO1-IN: " Uh-huh. I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- on what they call the
tower, and he said that someone had a camouflage jacket
or something on with something over the face. I can't
even remember -- the strangest word I'd ever heard.
JOHN: Balaclava.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly. And he's all
excited and so forth --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I'm sitting here
and thinking to myself, is this insanity or what?
Seriously -- here they've gone to --
JOHN: well, I, I -- you know I'm not all
excited, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, here they've gone
to --
Z71-.-- »_-<
Q6
JOHN: I'm just trying to tell you we don't
need anybody to get jumpy, huh? _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Here we have all these guns
pointed at us. They're on the property, contrary to
what the word that was given -- what?
JOHN: Go ahead.
Pause.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, like when I went
up there one time to take a look to see what it was
looking like.
" 'JOHN:" Uhhuh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is a couple days ago.
I happened to look out, just look out the window at the
Bradley sitting down there by the garage --
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And when I opened up the
curtain, of course, they pointed a 25 millimeter gun
directly at me. Directly at my person. Right in line
with me.
JOHN: Yeah, but nobody fire -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then yesterday we told
you about how we got -- somebody bared their ass to us.
JOHN: I told -- you told me that and I
talked to somebody about that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and the finger --
JOHN: Yup.
!Q.-_ .,4
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: They point guns at us.
They, they ran over our cemetery, which is an illegal
thing. It's a violation of the State codes, the laws
of Texas.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And when our attorney
mentioned that to Dick, Dick said, what are you going
to do about it. _That was his --
JOHN: No, I'm sure he didn't say that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. That's what -- no,
he did. Honestly. 'You go back and listen to the tape,
the conversation, that's what he said. What are you
going to do about it?
JOHN: ¥ou're kidding?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I'm not kidding.
- JOHN§ No. You -- well, he must have been a
little feisty at the time or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NO, John.
JOHN: -- something, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John. And let's, let's
talk reality now. Let's talk down to earth. You --
we, we are both sitting down here right now. We had an
agreement --
I JOHN: David's sitting down?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he's right here.
JOHN: He's got to be feeling better.
?-» -_»<8
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He is.
JOHN: Good. y
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Anyway, we had an
agreement. Those Bradleys come and go on the property,
they removed personal property. That means the
motorcycles out into the open elements. They were in
the garage - that's right, that's right. We don't
have any rights, so I don't -- I really don't know why
we're talking --
JOHN: Don't have any what?
" "STEVE SCHNEIDER: Rights.
JOHN: Sure you do. You have Constitutional
rights.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. The attorney --
no, that has not been shown. We -- the attorney got on
the telephone and talked about the first Bill of Rights
- Bill of Rights, the First Amendment and the Fourth.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Totally without regard by
you people. This country, which is founded on such
awesome principles, like something like this should
never happen. A total disregard --
JOHN: It never should have happened to begin
with.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of course not. Of course
not.
92
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JOHN: But it did.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So why isn't there an
investigation? Why haven't your -- these men of the
ATE been arrested and an investigation started on.them
for the murder, attempted murder, and in fact they did
commit it.
JOHN: Hey, I guarantee you there's a very
extensive investigation being conducted --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's not good enough.
You --
" 'JOHN:" as to the, the whole - the entire
- the incident in its entirety. You know, it's not
just your side or my side or anybody's side._
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Obviously --
JOHN: It's of the entire incident.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, John, this country has
become so corrupt.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If someone's in Government,
someone is wearing a badge. It is not the same thing
as your honest citizen. Your everyday person
personality. It is not the same thing.
JOHN: What, what do you mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What do I mean?
JOHN: Yeah. I mean, I wear, I wear a badge.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: these guys that -- I've
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got so many eye witnesses here, what happened. They
all have -- they saw it from a different angle,
different perspective, men, women, and children.
JOHN: Well, you know, there's going to be --
STEVE scunnrbmn: And, and they probably --
JOHN: -- two sides to the story and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, man, there --
JOHN: There are.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. And I'm glad
that the press got to film this thing.
'JOHN:" And, and it'll be adjudicated in a
court of law by a jury of whomever's peers.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We would feel a lot better
if we had a non-biased press involved and us a line to
them. I told you that over and over again.
JOHN: You know what I, you know what I said
about dealing with the press?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - take the $5 --
JOHN: Right? If anybody wants to talk to
the press they can, or David can prepare it -- a tape
similar to the one that he did before, you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We asked like -- remember
how Sunday, right into Monday we had open lines to the
press?
JOHN: Sure I do.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And it worked. We had no
.-_- 44-4I
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11
problem with you. That's when David chose to start
sending children out. He wanted to see what the
reaction would be by yourselves. And he continued to
do so. The first red flag that popped up with all of
us --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- was when you cut our
phone lines.
' JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Once doing that, then the
suspi¢1an star£éa and it's only grown worse.
JOHN: What suspicion?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: The suspicion that --
That we don't want to let the media JOHNS
know what's going on?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of course.
JOHN: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We wanted --
JOHN: Let me ask you. Have you watched the,
the, the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Press conferences? i
JOHN: Yeah. which I haven't, but I -- all
I've done is told what takes place.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes. That's what has made
all these people all the madder because of that which
was stated in behalf by your agency --
nu- .:<
v12
JOHN: You don't think it's the truth.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It is positively not the
truth. '
' JOHN: Then why don't you tell David to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We may --
- JOHN: -- prepare a tape that we'll give to
the media that he can correct --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Let, let say --
JOHN: -- anything that he thinks is not, not
valid.
STEVE SCHNEIDER speaking to Koresh!: - why_ ___ ._ W.
don't David -- correct anything that has not been so on
there that says his point and they'll give it to the
media to be played. i
JOHN: I mentioned that to you and David last
night. - -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, David says --
JOHN: That'd we'd be happy to do it last
night.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David says, how many
children do you want for that?
JOHN: We wanted at least five kids.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Whoa! He says we wanted at
least five kids.
JOHN: Remember when we started off last
night. okay? You had this, you had this dialogue
..-- -V4.'
Q13
going before I arrived that was - you wanted, they
wanted all the kids out and all the women out and we'd
let you put a tape together and the whole nine yards.
And I said, hey, this is negotiable, right? We can
talk about this
STEVE
kids, by the wa
JOHN:
STEVE
kids.
_N _JOHN:
STEVE
names?
JOHN:
children.
STEVE
mentionedYthing."
SCHNEIDER: David says we got five
I'm sorry?
SCHNEIDER: David says we've got five
You do?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah. You want their
Well, I know you have more than five
SCHNEIDER: Well, I know, but you
five though --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and he says and we
got five.
JOHN: But it -- does that seem like a
reasonable thing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you want their names?
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. The first one is
Jim. The second one is Gary.
nu-V --:4
0JOHN:
STEVE
Jim, Gary, Henr
' JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
five from now?
JOHN:
STEVE
bVt " - _ -
JOHN:
A STEVE
talking like th
JOHN:
STEVE
around so much
JOHN:14
Jim who?
SCHNEIDER: I never got his last name.
Y __ .
Oh, what a piece of change you are.
SCHNEIDER: Well, come on --
Huh?
SCHNEIDER: But where did you get the
We were talking --
I suppose I'm number five, huh?
SCHNEIDER: Well, I would imagine,
._ ___.
Gary's one of them, right though?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Well, we're not
at -
And Henry's one of them.
SCHNEIDER: I mean, we're jumping
Look at that. I'm not, I'm not
calling you people names in there and I'm not being
facetious with you in there. And I --
STEVE
you're not, youSCHNEIDER: I, I know that. No, no,
re not. And I that's what I
especially appreciate, I really do.
JOHN: And I'm trying to be as calm as can be
and I will be calm. I'm not going to raise my voice,
I'm not going to get upset with you.
@-
- <1
2
3
4
5
6
7
a
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
2115
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Why did you listen, did you
listen to a tape between the convers -- the"- -
conversation of Dick and myself or something?
' JOHN: No. I sat down and talked to Dick --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He called up --
JOHN: What'd you do to the guy? You got him
all frustrated.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. He shocked the
heck out of me. The, the absolute insult of it all.
JOHN: But what did you say to him?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He told me -- okay, he
calls up, we look at this press conference. He asked
us to take a look at it, we do. Finally the phone
rings. I pick up the phone, how you doing, Dick.
Where are we at now? And he's so excited. I said,
calm down, what's up? He could hardly get it out, what
he got out he was talking about somebody up in a
camouflage something or other.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then this ends up being
some kind of a mask or something. Here it is a girl
Q
-
016
me when you keep on violating running all over the
property, pointing guns anytime you want at us.' You
run over guard shacks. You move things around our per
?- what on -- tell me, John. What are you - if you
were sitting here with me, what would you think of that
kind of thing?
JOHN: You, you know what?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You're concerned about --
JOHN: If I were sitting there with you, I'd
want to get away from that kind of thing and get out of
there. _ _ _ w,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: To think you know -- you
guys see a broom sticking out the window or a broom
handle and right away you're all - I mean, can you
believe it? I don't even believe in the first
place, I do not believe that's true. I really don't.
I don't even I don't think they're seeing things.
JOHN: I, I just don't need, I just don't
need any problems, Steven. And you, you don't need any
problems -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's --
JOHN: -- I don't need any problems, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. John, that's true.
That's why we -- why the major problems with Dick
today?
JOHN: That's why I want to talk to you, huh?
@n> ->4
?*"17
Not problems. We're not hurting anybody. We're not
threatening to hurt anybody. " '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think --
JOHN: We got a lot of movement out there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wait just a minute, John.
The guy that -- apparently what they were seeing was --
the guy that they saw was actually a guy from Africa
and he was taking a leak.
JOHN: That's a real sense of humor, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, anyway, you had --
JOHN:_ That's kind of crude, Steve, isn't it?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, listen, you had a
little humor yesterday, so I thought I'd break --
JOHN: What?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, remember, we were
breaking the ice'a little bit --
JOHN: Well, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- yesterday, so --
JOHN: That's, that's kind of got racial,
ethnic overtones to it, though, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's -- it came
from a black man.
JOHN: Oh, okay. Okay. As long as it didn't
come from David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just a minute. He says --
David does say this, I mean, in all seriousness, his
.?".:.__.r
92
18
father is going to take care of all you and that is no
joke. " '
JOHN: Well, I guess he'll take care of all
as us, mm?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But he wants - but lookit,
he wants to give you a Bible study real quick. Is that
okay, John?
JOHN: A real quick -- David does not know
what a real quick Bible study is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He says you do not know
what a real quick Biple study is.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Well, I'm going to show
him the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He says he's going to show
you. H
JOHN: Are you going to agree to that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yes.
JOHN: It's kind of hard, it's kind of hard.
I guess I'll get back to you, Steven, around midnight,
huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Laughter.! John, I do
like you.
JOHN: Let, let me ask you something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, go ahead.
JOHN: Before we get into this lengthy
dialogue here.
¢- _ _
._¢
vSTEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
' JOHN:
night --
STEVE
JOHN:
talked to David
STEVE
JOHN:
then. I hope.
STEVEI
19
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
One-sided dialogue, I might add.
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
Remember when we left off last
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
And, and I talked to you and then I
SCHNEIDER: Right.
-- because you were probably asleep by
SCHNEIDER: I was, man, I, I was. Man,
I couldn't get over how long that went.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
called in --
STEVE
JOHN:
concerned.
STEVE
JOHN:
with David, youI hope. '
SCHNEIDER: You lost me along the --
~We, we talked about the people who had
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
And about the people of whom they were
SCHNEIDER: Um-hum. Right.
Now, I realize by the time I got done
know, talking to David at 2:30 this
morning, that was not the appropriate time to wake
these people up
STEVEand have them come in.
SCHNEIDER: Correct.
P.an - -
0|
I
v
JOHN:
hello to them a
STEVE
¥- I don't know
a few. In fact
JOHN:
STEVE
lot more than a
JOHN:
STEVE
more. W g
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
Jeff Little and
STEVE
way -
JOHN: And Miss Jewell and Borst and
and --
* STEVE SCHNEIDER: They're all around
went to every last one of them, said that they
call you or --20
But both you agreed to let me say
nd David agreed. " -
SCHNEIDER: You know that Dick has been
if he told you, but he talked to quite
I -- n
Well, he said he talked to a couple.
SCHNEIDER: Well, actually there was a
couple.
And there were a couple of --
SCHNEIDER: There were at least five or
But, remember, we went over a list.
SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
You know, David Thibodeau and, and
Miss Vega and --
SCHNEIDER: And I went around - by the
Craddock
here. I
could
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - when you called they
could talk to you.
JOHN: Well, they're not going to be able to
1» -»:<?
21
talk to me right now, because I'm going to be
enlightened here. "
STEVE
' JOHN:
STEVESCHNEIDER: Okay.
You know that and I know that.
SCHNEIDER: ~Okay. I will make sure
that they will be
JOHN: But please let me talk to them when,
when I'm done talking to David.
STEVE
that.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:SCHNEIDER: I will do that. I will do
Okay?
SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll do that.
I appreciate it.
SCHNEIDER: Here's Dave -- here he is.
Thank you.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
KORESH: Hello, John.
How do you feel? Better?
KORESH: I had a good laugh just then.
Well, that's not necessarily good for
you though, is it? '
DAVIDKORESH: Well, it, it was like someone
kicking me in the back, but it was well worth it.
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:Huh?
KORESH: It's like --
When you were talking about the five
Q-: <92
22
children?
DAVID xomasx-1: Laughter.! ~ -
JOHN: Huh? See? That's Satan soeaking
there, isn't it? D
DAVID KORESH; NO, John.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID KORESH: No. Be careful. Don't
blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Don't dare do that, son.
- JOHN: Lord. Hey, at least I didn't call
somebody Pop, did I?
DAVID KORESH: Hey! When you -- the Pope
means pop, my man.
JOHN: No, that's poppa.
DAVID KORESH: No, poppa is still the same as
pop, silly. Get your, get your --
JOHN: »Slang.
DAVID KORESH: -- get your diction down --
proper.
JOHN: Slang.
DAVID KORESH: Now, do you want to learn this
or not?
JOHN: Well, you know you're, you're dealing
with what we would call a téte de pioche, a thick-head
in French.
DAVID KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: How's your French, but go - let's go.
-: <..¢-
OI
23
DAVID KORESH: Let's go. Okay. All right.
Now, like, like Gaychay phonetic sp.! said, you know,
I, I told him, I said, look. You show me these seals
and then that way I'll know that my god's lied to me,
that everybody knows them, or somebody else knows them,
and then I can't trust to my god no more so I'll just
come on out to you. That's the arrangements I made
with him. So --
JOHN: Oh, hey, before we get wound up here,
and while you're calming down from the bit of levity, I
know Dick.had talked to Kathy, okay?
DAVID KORESH: Uh-huh.
JOHN: Before, and I don't know if you were
there. I presume you were. About the youngsters and
milk and this whole thing. And I just want you to
understand that we are more than happy to bring the
milk up if there, there's going to be an exchange of
two youngsters. And, and that's --
DAVID KORESH: Now, let's don't play that
game. Hey, let me tell you something, before I hang up
on you, all right?
JOHN: Don't do that.
DAVID KORESH: No, no. Listen.
JOHN: What?
DAVID KORESH: You're dealing with my
children now.
Q-_:-92
r
JOHN:
children. All
DAVID
wait a minute.
children now.
JOHN:
DAVID
down to.
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
children.
DAVID
_ JOHN:
welfare.
DAVID
standing face t
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
welfare.
DAVID
JOHN:
is.
DAVID
JOHN:24
Well, I - all the children are your
those people are your children.-
KORESH: -- you just wait a minute, you
You're dealing with my biological
Why do you say that?
KORESH: Because that's what we've come
Well, I'm concerned about --
KORESH: Don't say --
-- the care and welfare of your
KORESH: -- don't say well to me.
Why not? I'm concerned about their
KORESH: -- because if me and you were
o face, you wouldn't say well to me.
Why not?
KORESH: Because.
I've got children. I care about their
KORESH: That's beside the point.
You know, you know what the agreement
KORESH: I know what my agreement is.
What?
-. -:4I
25
DAVID KORESH: I've told you. I sent you out
Mark and I told you to send us some milk. You said
you'd get onto it. Jim told me he'd get onto it, that
they was getting it. I says all right. I says I'll go
ahead and I went ahead and sent out @- A
JOHN: Those were the agreements?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. I went ahead and
sent out Kevin because the milk was on the way.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: And then Kevin -- they came
back, you_know kevin -- there was no milk given and so
then the next thing of it was that well, you know, he
said he was having some difficulty and then we got on
the phone. So then all of a sudden we ended up sending
out Heather. Q
JOHN: ~Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: Now, there's three kids, and
no milk. So, you know, let's talk about, let's talk
about --
JOHN: Well, I don't remember - I was here
when Ke - when Heather came out and I don't even
remember any dialogue about milk when she came out.
DAVID KORESH: well, you have a bad memory,
what can I say?
JOHN: No, I don't.
DAVID KORESH: Come on. Let's stop this
0game.
JOHN: It didn't come up.
DAVID KORESH: Let's stop
right?F
26
right now, all
JOHN: Well, I just wanted to tell you what I
was asked to tell you.
DAVID KORESH: It's just that I'm taking it
personal,
angry and
JOHN: Now, we don't want
DAVID KORESH: NO, let me
fail to understand the mentality of
You misjudge. You don't understandokay? Now, in Psalms 2 it says -- to get
like I say, you guys are starting to push me.
to do that.
say something. You
the people here.
that whereas we are
sober in the degree and we love souls and want you guys
to possibly break out of your chains of darkness by
learning some truth here. On the other hand, you
interpret to the media that my statements to you is
religious babbling.
JOHN:
mentioned at all to the media.Oh, I don't think those words were
DAVID KORESH: Well, would you like to'quote
-- unguote what the words were?
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: Rambling.
JOHN: Pardon?
DAVID KORESH: Rambling.
Q
'/J >
27
JOHN: Maybe a rambling dialogue sometimes?
could that have been it? " '
DAVID KORESH: This is what I said. Rambling
'is the same as babbling.
JOHN: No, it's not.
DAVID KORESH: Going all over the place.
JOHN: What else don't you like that was said
to the media? And you know there's a simple solution
to that too. You put a tape together and we work it
out.
DAVID KORESH: Send out some kids and send
out some kids and put the tape together and send out
some kids.
JOHN: You know, I, I understood that in the
statement to the media it was pointed out to the media
that as far as we were concerned, anybody was free to
leave there and that you were waiting to get the word,
right?
DAVID KORESH: Oh, that's what I've said all
along --
JOHN: And as we talked last night --
DAVID KORESH: but you don't honor that
statement.
JOHN: What do you mean?
DAVID KORESH: You continue to harangue and
harass. You continue to try to --
~
@-: <28
JOHN: No.
DAVID KORESH: Well, actually it's very
silly -- t
JOHN: Would you rather that we didn't even
talk? r
DAVID KORESH: - the way that you gentlemen
are actually working or talking because first of all,
you know, me and Steven sit in here and talk with the
people about -- well, actually we drew pictures of you
all anyway.-
JOHN: Uh-oh.
DAVID KORESH: We've got, we've got a big
picture here, a big picture of -~ see, there's Jim and
Gary and Henry and Dick and John here. And --
JOHN: Because I'm curious to see some of
them. "A
DAVID KORESH: Oh, yeah. Well, you'll see
some of them.
JOHN: You don't have any horns on the heads
of any of them, do you?
DAVID KORESH: No, no, no. They're very
,pleasant kind of men, very wellmannered. Cookie sheet
kind of people.
JOHN: They're put up on a dartboard or
something?
DAVID KORESH: No, it's just up here on the
Q--_-<29
wall.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID KORESH: You know. And, you know, they
got Dick where he's a real nice guy, you know, and they
got, you know -- the shortest one of all here is Henry,
so --
JOHN: Uh-huh. He's going to feel kind of
depressed over that. You know that, don't you?
DAVID KORESH: Well, what can I say? But
he's a nice looking guy.
_JOHN;_ He is. He's kind of a, a mature
looking fella.
DAVID KORESH: Right. The picture looks --
JOHN: Very suave and debonair.
DAVID xonnsn: Yeah. The picture looks that
way too.
JOHN: I'd love - tell me what Gary looks
like. That's the one that's got my, my interest up.
DAVID KORESH: Let's see. Gary, Gary looks
more -- how, how would you say the look is, Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- kind of tall --
DAVID KORESH: Kind of tall.
JOHN: Tall?
DAVID KORESH: More, more of a, more of a
boyish kind of look.
JOHN: Yeah. If, if you kind of - I'm
1|- ._,.i
waiting to hear
DAVIDthis, now, come on.
KORESH: Kind of more of an aggressive-
type personality. How much hair does John has he
any lost hair?
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
on that picture
DAVID
hairline up a l
JOHN:
DAVID
hair.
JOHN:
DAVID
them. So your,
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
cruel now, aren
DAVID
JOHN:John?
KORESH: Yeah.
Lost hair?
KORESH: Yeah.
Not a chance.
KORESH: Okay.
You, you better paint some hair back
then, huh?
KORESH: You need, need to put the
ittle bit further, Steven. I
I've got more hair than all of them.
KORESH: He, he says he's got long
Not long, more.
KORESH: He's got more hair than all of »
your nose is not that big, is it?
Oh, that's cold.
KORESH: It's what?
That's cold. You're being kind of
't you?
KORESH: No, no. I'm just asking.
No.
Q
__
au~- --- 4.L--54-.
092
i
31
DAVID KORESH: Okay. All right. Anyway,
basically by the voice personalities and stuff, the
pictures are being drawn.
JOHN: Uhfoh. A
DAVID KORESH: So anyway. Okay, well you
don't want to learn these seals so I'll sign - I'll
hand you back over to Steve here then, okay?
JOHN: Oh, talk to me.
DAVID NORESH: Well ~-
JOHN: I just don't want to leave you upset,
you know.. I want to talk to you. I want to
communicate with you.
DAVID KORESH: Communicate with me then, talk
to me.
JOHN: Vou know what I want. I want to
successfully resolve this thing. You told me last
night that you were ready to come out. All you were
doing is waiting for the word from your father, right?
DAVID KORESH: That's right.
JOHN: Did you do some serious praying today?
DAVID KORESH: I pray every day. I
JOHN: Well, I know that. But there's prayer
and there's prayer, huh? There's pretty deep prayer.
DAVID KORESH: Well, anyway, tomorrow's
supposed to be good weather, isn't it?
JOHN: It's beautiful today.
-: <..¢- _.
vC O
32
DAVID KORESH: You guys want to, you guys
want to have a football game tomorrow? " '
JOHN: You bet, but it's got to be out past
the end of that road -
DAVID KORESH: No, right here in the front.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah.
JOHN You're having a pipe dream.JOHN: Right there in the front?
DAVID KORESH: A pipe dream? What's that?
w Kind of a narro vision type thing or what?
JOHN:_ Well, I didn't want to get into the
word vision.
DAVID KORESH2 Okay.
I figured you'd bring that up soon JOHN:
enough. D
DAVID KORESH: Well, anyway --
JOHN: But, no.
DAVID KORESH: If you all want to play
tomorrow, you all can probably play if you want to,
huh?
JOHN: Hey, as they say. Safety and justice
for all, right down at the end of the road. Huh? It's
as easy as that. But are we going to have a little,
little Bible study tonight?
DAVID KORESH: Would you like one?
JOHN: Well, I don't mind. I don't mind.
{ Q
Q-_ ..:4I
33
But what I'd really like to do is ensure that we don't
have anybody sticking anything out of any windows up
there. I mean it's one thing for us to observe
something in the daylight hours. It's really
difficult -- '
DAVID KORESH:
something, John.
JOHN:A
DAVID KORESH:
does --
-. .JOHN:. Yes.
DAVID KORESH:
JOHN:
DAVID KORESH:
If somebody does, okay?
do. I i
JOHN: Well, I
said --
DAVID KORESH:
JOHN: -- it's
DAVID KORESH:Well, let me tell you
-- at nighttime.
Let me tell you. If somebody
Okay?
Don't do it.
No, but let me say something.
Then you do what you have to
did. I called you up and I
All right?
being kind of ridiculous.
Okay. But you stop making
your threats, okay? We called a cease fire, all right?
So we have a cease fire now. But don't tell us how to
run our operation anymore. Do you understand?
JOHN: What kind of an operation are we
running?
I
DAVID
operation we're
JOHN:
some rational c
DAVID
the operation -
JOHN:
DAVID
points a barrel
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
where the chees
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
from you. You
DAVID
promise.
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID34
KORESH: We're talking about the
running - '
I thought we were trying to get into
onversation here.
KORESH: and you're talking about
okay. Let me say something.
Go ahead.
KORESH: Next time one of your tanks
vat one of our windows --
Umhum.
_KOR§SH: Okay?
Umhum.
KORESH: Then we'll, then we'll see
e goes, okay? 4
What, what goes?
KORESH: Where the cheese goes.
What's that mean?
KORESH: Well, find out.
Well, I don't want to get any threats
re not getting any threats from me.
KORESH: That's not a threat, it's a
Huh?
KORESH: It's a promise.
Promise to do what?
KORESH: Like I said, find out.
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DAVID35
Yeah. Do you --
KORESH: when somebody -- let me tell
you something, John.
JOHN:
DAVIDDo you --
KORESH: When someone sticks a 25
millimeter cannon at somebody because they're looking
out the window,
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
Bradleys.. .~
DAVID
T, shit!
JOHN:
DAVIDnow that's a threat.
It's my understanding --
KORESH: That is a threat.
that there are no barrels on the
_._. .
KORESH: You are full of shit! S-H-I-
How can you say that?
KORESH: Now, go look in the dictionary
and look that word up. It's unabridged, okay?
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
on the Bradleys
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:Hey, we were told --
KORESH: You are full of --
- that the barrels had been removed
KORESH: You are full of shit.
Don't say that.
KORESH: I just did and I mean it.
There are barrels on the Bradleys?
KORESH: Yeah. God.
Well, the reason I say that is I'm not
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out there.
DAVID36
KORESH: Oh, GOd.
JOHN: I'm a long ways off.
DAVID
JOHN:KORESH: Oh.
Do you, do you really think we're
going to start firing indiscriminately up at that
place?
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
you a story -cw
JOHN:
DAVID
story you ain't
JOHN:
DAVIDKORESH: I sure hope so.
Why? Don't you care for the children?
KORESH: Because I'll give, I'll give
.,-
Don't you care for yourself?
KORESH: I'll give, I'll give you a
never seen. l
Go ahead.
KORESH: Oh, I'm sitting up. Wait a
minute. Let's turn in our Bibles to Isaiah 28.
JOHN:
DAVIDDo what?
KORESH: Turn in the Bible to Isaiah
28. I'm still not going to give up on you, John.
JOHN:
David, either.
DAVID
like you do.I'm not going to give up on you,
I just want you to calm down.
KORESH: I don't get paid to calm down
JOHN: Yeah, you do. You getting big bucks
to calm down.
I
{-> <
0DAVID KORESH:
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH:
JOHN:
DAVID KORESH:
JOHN:
up there.
DAVID KORESH:
JOHN: And the
this is in a good, calm
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Am I?
Is that what you think?
The, the biggest of the bucks. _
Is that what you think?
Because, you know, you have your flock
Ah, yeah.
only way that you can handle
demeanor.
I tell you. If you only knew
the way it's going to end. V
JOHN: Do you?
DAVID KORESH:
JOHN: Well, I
got the word yet?
DAVID KORESH:
you guys are acting.
JOHN: No, no,
DAVID KORESH:
your own neck.
JOHN: We --
DAVID KORESH:
about it. Don't -- just
to say. You'll, you'll
JOHN: Well --Yes, I do.
thought you said you hadn't
I can pretty much see the way
no. We're out here --
I see you, I see you hanging
That's all right. Don't worry
don't worry about what I have
find out later.
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DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, you got Isaiah 28?
The 28th chapter of Isaiah? " '
JOHN: Hang on. I'm up to 26.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. That's two more.
JOHN: Hey, before we get cranking on 28 and,
and I don't want to change your train of thought here,
but I mentioned to Steven, before he left, that I
probably wouldn't be talking to him for a while.
DAVID KORESH: All right.
JOHN: And one of the last things I discussed
with you last night_and something that I discussed with
him were the names of the people who had called in and
the people who they had called about. And that it
would and that I'd like to say hello to them. And
you said that was fine.
DAVID KORESH: Well, now, John, all day today
- yes it is. And all day today we was trying to talk
with Dick and I told you, I told you individuals that
you can talk to every one of these girls that have had
my children and the other children that are remaining
here. You have --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID KORESH: - you have that privilege.
JOHN: What about those people that, that I
mentioned that you said I could talk to them.
DAVID KORESH: Well, you still can.
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But I, I don't want them -- you know,
we got off the phone 2:30 this morning. That's
certainly not the time to talk to them, right?
DAVID
JOHN:
evening.
DAVIDKORESH: Right.
Hopefully I can talk to them this
KORESH: Oh, you want me to cut this
study short. Okay, we'll try. Let's go.
JOHN!
DAVIDWell, we can have more than one study.
KORESH: Okay. Well, let's get through
this one and then welll get over into the other, okay?
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
Now, you noticeGo ahead.
KORESH: You there?
Sure.
KORESH: What's verse 1 say?
Woe --
KORESH: To the crown of what?
Pride.
KORESH: To the drunkards of Ephraim.
if you knew the stories of the Bible
you would come to an understanding that Solomon, when
he was a king, he had apostatized phonetic sp.! from
God and he began to worship the other gods of the other
nations. He had many wives, many strange wives from
different and many countries. And what happened was
that he bankrupted his nation.
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So, when Rehoboam, his son, was to take the
throne, they asked Rehoboam if they would - if-he
would cut down some of the taxations against the people
and Rehoboam said that his little finger would be
thicker than his dad's leg. In other words, he was
going to increase the taxes and not deduct from them.
So God rose up this man, Jeroboam, who took the
northern kingdom of Israel, the ten tribes, and they
separated from the two tribes of the southern kingdom,
which remained to be Judah and Benjamin.
So in the ~- of the northern kingdoms,
Ephraim, one of the tribes of the northern kingdoms,
took the throne or took the kingship and for several
years throughout Bible record you'll find that Ephraim
is referred to as the ten tribes. Now, this prophecy
starts off with woe to the crown of pride, the
drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading
flower. The kind of flowers which are where? Which
are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are
overcome with wine. These guys are drunkards. Now,
when you're drunk you're not in your right mind, are
you?
Especially when you have a drink of wine.
You get too much wine, it makes you feel real good,
don't it? Things don't bother you. You're happy. But
when you come down from it, it'll kick you, okay? Now
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this kingdom, evidently, these drunkards, the
Ephraimites who probably -- they're presently looking
real good like a flower. God says they're going to
fade, right? And God explains to them how this will be
done.
Behold, verse
strong one. Okay? The
and a what? _
JOHN: Mighty
DAVID KORESH:
and a destroying storm,
overflowing, shall cast2, the Lord hath a mighty and
Lord has a what now? A mighty
and strong one.
And which as a tempest of hail
as a flood of mighty waters
down to the earth with the
hand. So this guy, evidently God says he's a pretty
bad customer, isn't he?
JOHN: Got you
DAVID KonnsmRight? You see that point?
His warfare is like a tempest
of hail and destroying storm. Okay. He's going to
cast down to the earth with the hand. Okay? What's he
going to cast down? The crown of pride. The drunkards
of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet. So these guys
are in a bad situation,
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH:aren't they?
And the glorious beauty, which
is on the head of the fat valley shall be a fading
flower and as the hasty
he that looketh upon itfruit before the summer, which
seeth, while it is yet in his
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hand he eateth it up. I mean, some people they want
92
their glory and they want it now, don't they? You
know, you see an apple develop on a tree. They can't
wait till it gets ripe, they got to have it now, right?
Okay. '
In that day, when these drunkards are cast
down, when these people are taken care of, whoever they
are, shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory,
and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his
people. In other words, a remnant. Right? So one
group's going to be-punished severely by the strong and
mighty one that God has and the remnants, whom -- those
whom God reserves, God will be their crown of glory,
right?
God will also be for a spirit of judgment to
him that sits in judgment, for strength to them that
turn the battle to the gate. Okay? We got to find out
what battle this is and what gate they're going to be
turning to, right? It says, but they also have erred
through wine, and through strong drink are out of the
way; the priest and the prophet have erred through
strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are
out of the way through strong drink. They err in what?
JOHN: Vision.
DAVID KORESH: They stumble in what?
JOHN: Judgment.
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DAVID KORESH: So they really don't know what
they're doing, do they? They don't understand the
visions, do they? They don't understand true judgment,
do they? Well, for all tables are full of vomit and
filthiness, so there is no place clean. So the
prophecy talks about these people that think they know
what they're doing and they don't. God says they _
don't.
God says he's got a strong and mighty one
who's going to set them straight, right? Okay. Well,
then, whom shall hewteach knowledge then. Whom shall
he make to understand doctrine then? What kind of
people? Babies? No. Them that are weaned from the
milk and drawn from the breast. For precept must be
upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line,
line upon line; here a little, and there a little.
That's what I've been doing for you individuals.
I've been showing you in the revelation the
seven seals. I've been trying to take you all over the
testament of the prophets.
Hello baby. Hey, go sit down, go sit down.
Daddy's talking.
I been trying to show you all over the
written scripture the same records and the same
pictures. For with stammering lips and another tongue
will he speak to this people. To whom he said, this is
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the rest wherein you may cause the weary to rest, and
this is the refreshing, yet they would not hear;
Okay. Now, a careful student of scripture
would find in every passage pertaining to the seals --
go over there, son. Go sit down. Daddy's giving a
study. Okay?
Scripture talks about prophecies that are
important for the latter days. That's what the seals
are. It's a message that God had declared to his
servants the prophets, the message about Christ.
Something Christ must.do in the latter days to fulfill
the testament of the prophets. But the prophecy says
here, the God of the strong and mighty one. The
question is, could this person be Christ?
We don't know. We have to find out. But the
word of the Lordwas unto to them precept upon precept,
precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little, that they might go and
fall backwards, be broken and snared and taken. So,
2,000 years ago did the Pharisees and Sanhedrin, did
they think they understood scripture? Did they?
JOHN: NO.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, they thought they knew it
like everything, didn't they? Uh-huh. But who did
they argue with all the time? who was the person they
would not agree with?
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JOHN: The Lord.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. And it was always
over the interpretation, wasn't it?
JOHN: Umhum. _
DAVID KORESHr Okay. But who was right,
though? The Lord. So, wherefore hear the word of the
Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is
in Jerusalem. God's addressing them pretty hard, isn't
he? Because ye have said, we have made a covenant with
death, and with hell are we at agreement. When the
overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not
come unto us.
Now, remember this person in verse 2? The
Lord hath a mighty and a strong one? It's going to be
like a tempest of hail, isn't it. Like a destroying
storm, right? 'Like a hurricane. As a flood of mighty
waters overflowing he's going to cast down to the earth
with the hand, right? What's in his hand, do you know?
Could it be the word of God?
JOHN: The Bible.
DAVID KORESH: Could it be the BOOk?
JOHN: We know it's the Book.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, in the first seal,
Christ is revealed as a man on a white horse, right?
Psalms 45, God says he's the mightiest, right?
JOHN: And thunder.
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DAVID KORESH: Okay. That's the first
thunder. Okay? M '
JOHN: And the Book.
DAVID KORESH: Now, in the second seal
Zechariah tells us he saw the Lord ride on a red horse,
correct?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: And the subject was is that
there were other horses and the attitude of the world
is that the earth is at ease, right? There's little of
no interest in these horses, are there?
JOHN: Other than - well, in the horses, no.
But he was given a great sword, right?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Of course, that
sword is revealed when we find out that the four horns,
which have killed or destroyed Judah and Israel, were
the horns which overthrew Judah and Israel, which is
Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Through the
ministration of Christ and the spirit of prophecy,
God's allowed men to kill one another, to try to
overthrow kingdoms. That's why the, the Babylonians
were overthrown by the MedoPersians by the sword, the
Medo-Persians were overthrown by the Greeks by the
sword, the Greeks were overthrown by the Romans by the
sword and it's been so ever since, hasn't it?
JOHN: True.
jr.Q--_-<47
DAVID KORESH: And the Lord allows that,
doesn't he? He doesn't do it Himself directly, but he
allows it to happen, doesn't he. Okay. So it's God's
word that permits these things to be. Now, we know
that in the third seal, like I showed Dick today.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: You know, that in the Book of
Hosea, the third seal is a man on a black horse, has a
pair of balances in his hand. We know that Hosea says
that the Lord is a merchant man and the balances of
deceit are in-his hand. He loveth to oppress. We know
the prophecy of Hosea revolves around a time when
Israel for many years will be without a king, without a
sacrifice, without a temple, without teraphim, but the
day will come when Israel will seek the Lord their God
and David their king and will take the Lord in his
goodness in the latter days. That's what Hosea tells
us.
Hosea states that God will reveal the more
excellent things of His law, the great things, which
are the seals. That's a part of His law too, the
prophets, you know, in the part of God's word, too, you
know. But they'll be counted as a strange thing.
Hosea tells us that God chooses to speak by the
prophets, to warn by the prophets, because the Lord is
a merchant man and the balances of deceit are in His
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hand. He loveth to oppress. Well, he oppresses the
wicked because only he can reveal these prophets. Only
he can confirm the covenant spoken of by the prophets
since the foundation of the world. _
And that's why in the latter days, under the
third seal, he's called an oppressor by the prophet
Hosea, that he has the pair of balances in his hand.
So the prophets begin to tell us details of which I
know you don't want to go into, in regards to this
mystery of God through Christ, the word of God made
flesh, and the covenant that God would offer men in the
latter days before he brings this world to an end.
This is the mystery of God when this time no longer
will be finished and God had already said it to the
prophets. God's got a copy in heaven and God says only
the Lamb can put it in its right order.
Now, the fourth seal. We know he's the pale
horse rider, don't we?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: This ain't Clint Eastwood,
now. Okay?
JOHN: Pestilence, huh?
DAVID KORESH: All right. Now, this horse,
the name that sits upon it is death, right?
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID KORESH: And hell follows him, right?
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JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, we know that the
crown of pride God does not like rulers and leaders
to be proud, does he? Because in so being they're "
drunkards, because they're responsible for the safety
and -- of their people of which they govern. We know
that God has a strong and mighty one that's going to
overthrow these guys. We know that they err in vision.
We know these guys, they do not understand the visions.
They do not understand and so the question
is, well who will he teach knowledge then and who will
he make to understand doctrine. Those who are mature.
Not the milk suckers, but those who are mature. But
they think the word is to them. They think they
understand it in line upon line, precept upon precept.
So God says in verse 14, well, hear the word of the
Lord ye scornful men that rule this people in
Jerusalem.
They think they've made a covenant with
death, don't they? And with hell they are in
agreement, right? They think when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us.
Who brings that overflowing scourge? Christ does,
correct? Right?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, when a person says
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they accept Christ as their Savior, they're accepting
that they believe in
believe the truth of
they must understand
him. They must also'Christ all the way, so they must
Christ on the white horse. And
that truth if they really accept
accept the truth that Christ is on
the red horse and whatever lesson that may contain.
They must also believe that Christ is on the black
horse and whatever lesson that may contain. And on the
pale horse, his name is death and hell follows.
Okay. So these people think they're in
agreement with this one who, when he passes through, he
will not come nigh unto them, right? For we have made
lies our refuge and under falsehood have we hid
ourselves. Therefore, thus saith the Lord God, behold
I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone. How many eyes
does this stone have? Do you remember?
JOHN: You bet.
DAVID KORESH: Seven, right?
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID KORESH: A tried stone. A precious
corner stone. A sure foundation. He that believeth on
this rock shall not make haste, you know?
first of all, at theWhy? Well,
time of the end, when these seals
are to be opened, you know, I'm not trying to push you
into making an irrational decision, because I know
what's aiming at you.
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Just as you hopefully in the courtesy of your
humanity, although your eyes are not opened to the
invisible things, your eyes are open to what appears to
be. You have human judgment, judgment of this world.
And you're hoping that we don't make any hasty moves,
so that you don't have to pin judgment upon us. But
God states that in the knowledge of these seals, this
rock of which this church is to be built upon, right?
Not the Pope, but the rock referring to the rock with
seven eyes, you see --
_, _JOHN:. See, that's where there's a difference
in interpretation, right?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly, but our
interpretation is true and yours is false. If the
papacy was built upon the rock --
JOHN: Who was St. Peter.
DAVID KORESH: No, it wasn't. Christ states
very clearly to Peter - he just called him Satan,
didn't he? He said get thee behind me, Satan. Who
says thou that I am. And Peter says, well, though art
the Lord, the Son of God. And Dhrist says, flesh and
blood has not revealed this to me, but my father in
heaven. And upon this rock will I build my church. He
calls him Cephas, little stone. Peter says later on
we're all little stones, but there's one big rock. My
Father, he says, has revealed it to you and on this
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rock will I build my church and the gates of hell shall
not prevail against it.
Satan used Peter in the next verse. Christ
says, I must go to Jerusalem and Peter says, not so
Lord. And Christ turned around and said, get thee
behind me, Satan, for you savorest the things that be
of man and not the things that be of God. As long as
we have God the rock as the one who gives us directions
and reveals things to us, we're in harmony with God.
When we turn from the rock and submit ourselves to
human, earthly, sensual, emotional little dictates of
our own mind, then we're following the spirit of Satan.
As long as Peter was looking to God and
looking to the rock, yes, he was a part of that rock,
the great rock in heaven. But when he turned to follow
his own feelings and tell the Lord not so, then he was
of the spirit of Satan. It's something we've all got
to watch. Now, this rock that we lay in Zion, we know
it has a stone, we know it has seven eyes. Yes? It's
a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure
foundation. He that believeth shall not make haste.
Judgment also will I lay to the line and
righteousness to the plummet, and the hail, which comes
from the strong and mighty one, shall sweep away the
refuge of lies and the waters shall overflow the hiding
place. So your covenant with death shall be
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disannulled, your agreement with hell shall not stand.
When the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then
ye shall be trodden down by it. Now what's going to
happen? 4
Well, whatever happens we know in verse 19,
from the time that it goeth forth shall it take you,
for morning --
End of Tape 84!
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Tapr 85!
DAVID KORESH: at verse 19 if you've got
one. ,9"
Oh, I know. _ JOHN:
DAVID KORESH: And it says the Hebrew - and
it says when he shall make you to understand doctrine.
Okay? 92
JOHN: Go ahead. '
DAVID KORESH: Okay. And those who have
transgressed, those whose mouths have spoken contempt
against the truth, those who have not taken heed to the
direction that the Spirit has tried to lead them are
going to find a situation to where they can't sleep
anymore, verse 20. For the bed is shorter than that a
man can stretch himself on it and the covering narrower
than that he can wrap himself in it. For the Lord
shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, like he did
anciently with the Philistines. He shall be wroth in
the valley of Gibeon that he may do his work, his
strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange
act. And it is strange, you know?
JOHN: It's just hard to interpret by many,
right? I
DAVID KORESH: No, they'll in - they'll
interpret the act.
JOHN: Oh, it was hard to interpret by many.
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DAVID KORESH: Well, you see, these
prophecies are not to be interpreted by anybody but the
Lamb. Now, therefore, be ye,not mockers, lest your
bands be made strong, lest you tie you up -- yourself
up in your own conceit, for I have heard from the Lord,
the God of hosts, a consumption. Do you know what a
consumption is? It's a fire. When something's
consumed. Even determined upon the whole earth. Now,
you may not believe in hell. You may not believe in
paying for your sins --
JOHN:_ Well, the fire is one interpretation
also, right?
DAVID KORESH: Well, if you knew what all the
other prophets thought -- '
JOHN: Do you consume food?
DAVID KORESH: Look.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID KORESH: Look, take it in context.
Okay? All the prophets we've heard so far deals with
the Lord coming, flaming chariot, consuming his
enemies.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: Now, this consumption, it's
from the Lord of hosts, is not something to do with
eating. And it's -- from the whole earth. So give ye
ear and hear my voice and harken to my speech. Now,
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4does the plowman plow all day to sow? Does he?
JOHN: I'm sorry. ~ "
DAVID KORESH: Verse'24. Doth the plowman
plow all day to sow? Does the guy get up there in his
field and work all day long break - does, does he plow
so he can sow some seed? Doesn't he?
JOHN: Sure. He opens and breaks the clods
on this ground. -
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Yeah, definitely, to
put seed in there, don't he?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID KORESH: And when he hath made plain
the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches,
and scatter the cumminand cast the principal wheat,
the appointed barley and the rye in their place.
Doesn't he? Now, remember Christ said the Kingdom of
Heaven is like a seed sower? That's Christ talking.
This is where he got this parable from.
For his God doth instruct him to discretion
and doth teach him. For the fitches are not threshed
with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel
turned about upon the cummin, but the fitches are
beaten out with a rod staff, and the cummin with a
rod. Bread corn is bruised, because he will never be
threshing it. You don't go out and thresh bread corn,
do you? Neither break it with the wheel of his cart,
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nor bruise it with his horsemen. This also cometh
forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in
counsel and excellent in working.
' Now, what did he mean by that? We just got
through looking at a prophecy about a warning to
Ephraim. We find_out there are scornful people that
rule God's people in Jerusalem and God makes them to
know for sure that in Zion there is a rock, a
foundation for those who think that they have a
connection with the Messiah. Well, the keynote is is
that this death and this hell, how does it relate to
the fourth seal? Is this death and hell a person? Is
this death and hell a person? What is Christ revealed
as, according to the fourth seal? 4
JOHN: Pale - a rider on a pale horse.
DAVID KORESH: And his name is what?
JOHN: Death. '
DAVID KORESH: Now, do you know what the name
Koresh means?
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: It means death. You see, the
name of God is Yahweh, but the way it's actually
pronounced since the first punctuation of time from the
ancient writers, is when it says in the Tenach, thou
shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, it
means thou shall not take his name. His name is
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Yahweh. And the way it's pronounced is like this.
Breathing in and out.! Every time you breathe you're
saying the name of God. Thatks why in Judaism and
stuff they never, they never pronounce it according to
the word form Yahweh. You fix it --
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. So everyone who
breathes is taking God's name and if we live without
knowing his testimony or his word, we're living in
vanity. And we're taking his name in vain. Some
people say, well, when I say goddam, that's taking the
Lord's name in vain. Well, now, wait a minute. Let's
break this down. Does God condemn - damn means to
condemn. Well, no one has the right to tell God to
condemn anybody, do they? Do they?
JOHN: No.
DAVID KORESH: No. But God or Got phonetic
sp.!, the German word Got, you know, is another word
from another country, you know. There's no such word
in the Hebrew, God. There's the word, the Adonai,
which means Lord, but the actual proper names of, of
the sovereignty of heaven is Yahweh, El Shaddai, and
then what? That's it. Off of the manuscript. Yahweh
and El Shaddai. But, according to the prophecies God
proclaims to Deuteronomy that he will publish his name
somewhere.
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So when it talks about Koresh, it's a
surname. A surname from God. Now, you get the'
concordances and the dictionaries out and you'll find
out that they'll tell you it's from an unused root word
that they don't know what the meaning is. No scholar,
no teacher, no concordance in this whole world can tell
you what the name Koresh means. They don't know. It's
kind of weird, isn't it?
JOHN: No, but you've told me it means death.
DAVID KORESH: Wait a second.
§OHN:_Right?
DAVID KORESH: Revelation says Christ has a
name that no one knows but he, himself. And his name
is the word of God. Okay. Now, if it's true that the
proper name of God is Yahweh, which is Breathing in
and out!. When you breathe you go Yahweh, Yahweh,
Yahweh, Yahweh. Okay? What do you do when you die?
What's the sound your body makes when you die?
JOHN: It doesn't make any sound when you
die.
DAVID KORESH: Yes it does.
JOHN: No it doesn't.
DAVID KORESH: Yes it does. You don't know
what you're talking about.
JOHN: Your last dying breath? Is that what
you want?
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DAVID KORESH: Yeah. What does your body do?
JOHN: Rattle. " '
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. It goes rasping
breath!, just like that." And unless you're blown to
pieces, everybody does it. And there's a meaning to
that in Psalms 119 called the Alpha and Omega, life and
death is the whole title of God. Havech Koresh is the
name of my father. And my name is David Koresh. I
know it sounds funny to you, but anyway.
The keynote is, there's a death that's
beloved as the death of all the prophets, is the death
of all those who've lived this life. The righteous
perish Isaiah 57 says. The merc are taken away.
None considering the righteous is taken away from the
evil to come. They shall rest in their beds, each one
walking in his uprightness.
There is a sleep and there is a death, which
is not eternal. But to the wicked there is a death
which is eternal. Now, this rock comes up a lot of
different places throughout Isaiah, doesn't it?
Through all the prophets. Have you noticed that?-
Okay. Let's go back over here to Chapter 50. Let's
take a look at just a couple of titles and I'll put you
on with these girls, okay?
JOHN: You bet.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Let's see here. Let's
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start -- let's actually start with Chapters 44 of
Isaiah. Hello.
JOHN: Somebody must'be walking on your cable
over there. ' v
KORESHr Yeah. Yeah. Our Israeli' DAVID
friend just walked on it.
JOHN: Pablo.
DAVID KORESH: Pavla. Okay. It says right
here are you there yet?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID.KORE$H: Okay. Verse 24 ~-
JOHN: 44.
DAVID
JOHN:KORESH: No, Chapter 44, verses 24.
Okay.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Okay. Thus saith the
Lord, they redeemer, he that formed thee from the womb.
I am the Lord that maketh all things, that stretcheth
forth the heavens alone and spreadeth abroad the earth
by myself. That frustrateth the tokens of the liars
and maketh diviners mad, that turneth wise men
backwards and maketh their knowledge foolish. That
confirmeth the word of his servant and performeth the
counsel of his messengers, that saith to Jerusalem,
thou shalt be built unto the cities of Judah ye shall
be built, shall be laid, shall be built. Okay?
JOHN: Umhum.
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DAVID KORESH: And I'll raise up decayed
places and saith to the deep be dry and I'll dry up thy
rivers. That saith of Cyrusnahe is my shepherd to
perform all my pleasure.- Now, Cyrus is the translated
word of the word Koresh. Do you understand that?
Okay. Now, it says here, perform all my pleasure, even
saying to Jersusalem thou shalt be built, and to the
temple, thy foundation shall be laid. ~
Now, thus saith the Lord who is anointed.
The word anointed in Hebrew is Mashiach, which means
Messiah. To Koresh, whose right hand I have holden.
Why? To subdue nations before him and I will loose the
loins of kings, like I was fixing to do, was going to
make kings crap their britches, you know. To open
before him the two leaved gates, the gates shall not be
shut. .. .
I'll go before thee, make the crooked places
straight. I'll break in pieces the gates of brass, cut
asunder the bars of iron. I'll give the treasures of
darkness, the hidden riches of secret places, that thou
mayest know that I, the Lord, which called thee by thy
name, am the God of Israel. Why? Why is this going to
happen?
For Jacob my servant's sake, and for Israel
mine, I have even called thee by thy name, I have
surnamed thee. What's a surname? It's a last name,
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isn't it?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID KORESH: Though thou has not what?
Known me. I am the Lord and there is none else. There
is no God beside me, I girded thee, though thou hast
not known me. Why? That they may know. Who may know?
From the rising of the sun and from the west, that
there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is
none else. Wait a minute. What, what direction does
the angel from the east come in Revelation. From the
east, right? AH, K
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: And he's got the seal of the
living God, right? Sure he does. I form the light and
create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the
Lord do all these things. Well, what's fixing to
happen? Well, drop down, ye heavens, from above, and
let the skies pour down righteousness. That's what
that angel brings in Revelation 10 -- clothed in a
cloud. There's nothing more righteous than the seven
thunders, my friend.
Let the earth open and let them bring forth
salvation, let righteousness spring up together, I the
Lord created it. Woe on him that striveth with his
maker. Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of
the earth. You know, man can argue with man. Right?
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But not with God. Right? Shall the clay say to him
that fashioneth it, what makest thou? Or thy work, he
hath no hands? .§'
' Woe to him that say unto his father, what
begettest thou, or to the woman. Remember the woman in
Revelation 12? What has thou brought forth? See,
those who argue against God are going to be in big
trouble. Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel,
and his Maker, ask of me things to come concerning my
sons, concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
__ I have_made,the earth and created man upon
it. Even my hands have stretched out the heavens and
all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up
that's Koresh, right? In righteousness. And I will
direct how many. All his what?
JOHN!" Ways.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, over here in 46,
verses 9 --
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: We're just going to do this
real quick. Remember the former things of old, for I
am God and there is none else. I am God, there is none
like me. Declaring the end from when? From the
beginning. How did God create the world? By his word.
How is God going to - the world, by his word. In
seven days he created the world, right? And in seven
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seals he's going to destroy it. Uhhuh1 .
And from ancient times the things that are
not yet done saying, my counsei shall stand and I will
do all my pleasure. Calling a ravenous bird from the
east. Ecclesiastes 12, it says God will rise up at the
voice of the bird. That bird's a man, you know. The
man that executes my counsel from a far country, yea, I
have spoken it. I will also bring it to pass. I have
purposed it, I will also do it. Hearken unto me, ye
stouthearted that are far from righteousness. I bring
near my righteousness. It shall not be far off and my
salvation shall not tarry and I will place salvation in
Zion for Israel my glory.
Then, Of course, 47 is the virgin daughter Of
Babylon's going to come to the ground, right? Okay.
Now, it says right here. Let's go over here in
Chapters 48. Okay? Verses 9.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: For my name's sake will I
defer mine anger and for my praise will I refrain for
thee that I cut thee not off. Behold I refined thee,
but not with silver. I have chosen thee in the furnace
of affliction. For mine own sake, even for my own sake
will I do it. For how should my name be polluted? And
I'll give not give my glory to another. So it says
right here. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my
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called. I am he, I am the first, I am the last. Mine
hand also laid the foundation of the earth and my right
hand spanned the heavens. When I called on them, they
stand up together. - '
So all you, assemble yourselves together and
hear. Which among them hath declared these things?
Who only can declare these things? Well, it says
the -- -
JOHN: The Lord.
DAVID KORESH: -- Lord, the Lord if - no.
It says the Lord hath loved him, because Christ is the
Lord too, you know.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESI-I: He will do his pleasure on
Babylon and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. I, even
I, have spoken, yea, I have called him. I have brought
him and he shall make his way prosperous. So, we know
someone's going to overthrow Babylon, right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, we get over here
and we find out how this begins to work. Okay? In
Chapters 50 God has some questions about those who are
going to be lost. And it says right here in Chapter
50, verses 2, how come or wherefore when I came was
there no man? when I called there was none to answer?
Is my hand shortened at all that it cannot redeem?
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What's in God's hand?
JOHN: The Book. ~ -
DAVID KORESH: Alliright. Have I no power to
deliver?Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea. Okay?
Now, what happens we find in this hand there's a
revelation of who.Christ, right? So he says in verse
4, the Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned
that I should know
that is weary. He
wakeneth my ear to
The Lordhow to speak a word in season to him
wakeneth morning by morning, he
hear as the learned.
God hath opened mine ear and I was
not rebellious, neither turned away back. I gave my
back to the smiters and my cheeks to them that plucked
off the hair. -I hid not my face from shame and
spitting. For the Lord God will help me, therefore
shall I not be_confounded. Therefore have I set my
face like a flint and I know that I shall not be
ashamed. He is near that justifieth me. Who will
contend with me? Let us stand together. Who is mine
adversary? Let him come near to me.
Behold, the Lord God will help me. Who is he
that shall condemn me? Low, they all shall wax old as
a garment, and the moth shall eat them up. But who is
among you that fears the Lord, that obeyeth the voice
of his servant. That walketh in darkness and hath no
light? Let him trust in the name of the Lord and stay
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upon his God. And what's the name of the God? What's
the name of the Lord? What's God's last name? -What
was the surname? Koresh, right? You know the 144,000
know that the only name in scripture that is the '
surname of God is Koresh, right? l
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: Now, I would think I would
treat that name with more respect than what's been done
here lately. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire that
compass yourselves about with sparks. You guys that
are causing friction, walk in the light of your fire.
Go ahead and make your move. And the sparks ye have
kindled, go ahead. Do what you think you've got to do,
my friend. > '
But this ye have of my hand. You don't know
the book. Ye shall lie down in sorrow. So hearken to
me, ye that follow after righteousness. Ye that seek
the Lord, look unto the rock when ye are hewn. God's
doing all the making around here. You know what I
mean? You know the rock with seven eyes? And look to
the hole of the pit from which you are digged. Look at
this world we're coming out of. We're getting out of
here, friend. You can stay back here and die if you
want to, but we're not going to.
Have faith. Look to Abraham, your father,
and to Sarah that bare you. Didn't Abraham and Sarah
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leave Babylon when God told them to? Didn't they?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: For,I-called him alone and
blessed and increased him. For the Lord shall comfort
Zion. It's a promise. He will comfort all her waste
places. He will make her wilderness like Eden, her
desert like the garden of the Lord. Joy and gladness
shall be found therein. Thanksgiving and the voice of
melody. You think this nation's going to be great too
much longer? No, my friend, it's not.
JOHN: I know it is. Keep going.
DAVID KORESH: No. You don't know nothing.
Hearken unto me, my people. Give ear unto me, O my
nation, God says, for a law shall proceed from me and I
will make my judgment to rest for a light of the
people. What was~the law that the father sent? What
are those seven seals? The law of his word. Isn't it?
when you look to the rock you see he's got his law
right there in his right hand. It's a revelation of
Christ, the word of God made flesh.
Anyway, we find out over here a very sad
thing, in Chapters 52. In Chapter S2, in verse 6, God
promises therefore my people shall know my name.
Therefore, they shall know in that day that I am he
that doth speak. Behold, it is I. How beautiful on
the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good
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tidings, that publisheth peace and bringeth good
tidings of good, that publisheth salvation. "That saith
unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!,e-
' Now, the watchmen, those who know about this,
shall lift up the voice, wonlt they? With the voice of
the Lamb together shall they sing, for they shall see
how? Eye to eye, right? How many eyes does a Lamb
have? ~
JOHN: The magic figure, right?
DAVID KORESH: Seven, right? How many seals
are there?_ Seven. When he shall bring again Zion.
We're almost there. Break forth in joy, sing together,
ye waste places of Jerusalem, for the Lord hath
comforted his people, he redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord
has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the
nations and all the ends of the earth shall see the
salvation of our God.
Now, depart ye, depart ye, go out from
thence. Touch no unclean thing. Go ye out of the
midst of her. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the
Lord. Now, who are these girls here that are bearing
the vessels of the Lord? Do you know who they are?
JOHN: Uhuh.
DAVID KORESH: Some of they're right here
with me. You don't know about the babies and all that,
do you? But ye should not go out with haste, nor by
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flight, for the Lord God will go before you and the God
of Israel will be your rereward. Who's following them?
God, the Father. Behold, mynservant shall deal
prudently. He shall be.exa1ted and extolled and be
very high. Do you know why? Many are going to be
astonished at thee, his visage was so marred more than
any man, and his form more than the sons of men.
So shall he sprinkle many nations; And the
kings shall shut their mouths at him. Do you know why?
For that which had not been told them shall they see,
and that which they have not heard shall they consider.
But who's believed our report and to whom is the arm of
the Lord revealed. Anyway, the arm will grow up before
God as a tender plant and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form nor comeliness. when we shall see him
there is no beauty we should desire him, you know.
Besides, he's a guy that's despised and
rejected of men. Did you know that? A man of sorrows
and acquainted with grief. And because of that people
just kind of hide their faces from him, don't they?
Now, he was despised, and so therefore they don't
esteem him not, right? He's not your number one, grade
A brand of person, is he?
But surely he's bearing their griefs and he's
carrying their sorrows, yet they think he's being
stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he's
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being wounded for his transgressions, he's bruised for
their iniquities, and while he's being chastised,
they're having peace. .5
' And anyway, as we can work this deal out,
maybe with his stripes they'll be healed. Because
they, like sheep, have all gone astray and they've
turned everyone to his own way and the Lord has laid on
him the iniquity of them all. Yes, he's oppressed,
he's afflicted, yet he's not opening his mouth. He's
brought as a lamb to the slaughter and as a sheep
before her shearers is dumb, he opens not his mouth.
He's not telling really what's fixing to happen to him.
He's taken from prison and from judgment.
Who shall declare his generation? He's cut off out of
the land of the living. Why? Because of the
transgression of the people he was stricken. And he'll
make his grave with the wicked and with the rich in his
death, because he had done no violence, neither was any
deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him, he had
put him to grief and thou shalt make his soul an
offering for sin. He shall see his seed. You know
what his seed is? His babies. You know who's had his
babies? Those who were bearing the vessels of the
Lord. He shall prolong his days and the pleasure of
the Lord shall prosper in his hand. That's where the
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whole subject is found. He shall see the travail of
his soul and shall be satisfied by his knowledge shall
my righteous servant justifyqmany, for he shall bear
their iniquities. .-
Therefore,.will I divide him a
great and he shall divide the spoil with
because he hath poured out his soul unto
numbered with the transgressors, he bareportion of the
the strong,
death, he was
the sin of
many and made intercession for the transgressors. What
about those who don't have babies? That's all right.
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear,
break forth in singing thou that didst not travail with
child, for more are the children of the desolate than
children of the married wife. Enlarge the place of thy
tent and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy
habitation. Spare not, lengthen thy cords, strengthen
thy stakes. Thou shalt break forth on the right hand
and the left and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles
and make the desolate cities to be inherited -
inhabited.
Fear not, for thou shalt not be put to shame,
neither be thou confounded. Thou shalt not be put to
shame. For thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth.
Is this a young girl here? Thou shalt not rue the
reproach of thy widowhood anymore. What widow? How
come she's a widow? Did her husband get killed? You
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know he got killed. For thy Maker is thine husband,
the Lord of hosts is his name, the Redeemer of the
whole earth -- Redeemer of the-Holy One of Israel, the
God of the whole earth shall he be called. The Lord
hath called thee as a woman grieve - anyway. You can
read Psalms 113 when you want to read all this.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: so anyway, through~55, through
56, all the way through - you, you know. You need to
really, really, really get into this. Because there's
so much here that you just don't know. Like in 59,
verse 1. It ekplains why people like yourself have a
high probability of being lost. Okay? The argument is
is that look, behold the Lord's hand is not shortened,
that it cannot save.
You know there's a God, you know that he's
got a book with seven seals, you know you're supposed
to know these seals. You know that I'm here trying to
teach you these seals. And you can go ahead and roll
your eyes and do as you wish. Keep your
interpretations as you wish, but you know, it's not the
problem with God. Behold, the Lord's hand is not
shortened that it cannot save, neither is his ear heavy
that it cannot hear. But your iniguities have
separated between you and your God, and your sins have
hid his face from you that he will not hear.
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For your hands are defiled with blood and
your fingers with iniquity.
lies. You in verse 3 now?Your lips have spoken
59-verse 3?
JOHN: Um-hum.~ Go ahead.
V
DAVID KORESH: Your lips have spoken lies and
your tongue has muttered perverseness. None calls for
justice nor any pleads for truth. They trust in
vanity, though. They speak lies, they conceive
mischief, and bring forth iniquity. They hatch
cocatrice' eggs and weave the spider web. He that eats
of their eggs dieth, that which is crushed breaketh out
into a viper.
God doesn't look too highly on this class
here, does he? And their webs, the way they try to use
to hook other people, shall not become garments,
neither shall they cover themselves with their own
works. For their works are
act of violence is in their
to evil and they make haste
Their thoughts are thoughtsworks of iniquity and the
hands. Oh, their feet run
to shed innocent blood.
of iniquity and waste and
destruction are in their paths.
The way of peace they know not. They don't
know the seven seals, do they? There's no judgment in
their goings. They have made them crooked paths,
whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice
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overtake us. We wait for light, but behold obscurity;
for brightness, but we walk in darkness. Maybe that's
why you guys can't understandathese things.
We grope for the wall like the blind and we
grope as if we had no eyes. We stumble at noon day as
in the night, we are in desolate places as dead men.
We roar all like bears and mourn like doves -- sore
like doves. We look for judgment, but there is none,
for our salvation is far from us. For our
transgressions are multiplied before thee. Our sins
testify against us, for our transgressions are with us,
and as far as our iniquities, we know them.
Now, what was the sin that they get punished
for? In transgressing and lying against who? The
Lord. Departing away from their God. Instead they
wanted to speak obpression, right? They wanted to
revolt, didn't they? They wanted to conceive and utter
from the heart words of falsehood, right. So therefore
the judgment's turned back away from them and justice
stands afar off, for truth, the seven seals, falls in
the streets, don't it? And equity cannot enter.
Yea, truth faileth and he that departeth from
evil - those who want to do the seals make themselves
a prey. Now, the Lord sees it and it displeases him
that there's no judgment. He saw there's no man and
wonders if there's no intercessor. Not a one of you
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guys yet have, have, have shown us anything yet, have
you? Therefore, someone's going to have to show you
something. .§*
His arm brought salvation to him and his
righteousness sustained him. For he put on '
righteousness as a breastplate and a helmet of
salvation upon his head. He put on the garments of
vengeance. That's what you guys are askingfor, isn't
it? For clothing and was clad with zeal as a cloak
according to your deeds. According I'm going to repay,
fury to mine adversaries, recompense to mine enemies,
to these independents, these islands repay recompense.
And everyone that sees what's fixing to happen to you
guys, everyone shall fear the name of the Lord from the
west and his glory from the rising of the sun.
Now, when the enemy, those of you guys, come
in like a flood, which is what you've done, the Spirit
of the Lord will lift up a standard against you. The
Redeemer shall come to Zion and unto them that turn
from transgression in Jacob. As for me, this is my
covenant with them saith the Lord. My spirit that's
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I got a lot of babies here, you know. And they're
going to live. Nor out of the mouth of thy seed's
seed. A granted, God's goingrto be not just a grandpa,
he's going to be a great-grandpa, isn't he? Huh.» Did
you know that Christ had a father? Did you know Christ
is a father now? You didn't know that, did you?
There's a lot of things you probably don't know. A
bunch of things I can promise you you don't know.
And one day I'm going to be a grandfather
too. You know, God can do what he wants to do. He's
let you in, hasn't he? saith the Lord from henceforth
and forever. So we're going to have to rise and shine
here before long, because the light's going to come and
the glory of the Lord is going to rise up me. You know
why? Because in verse 2, let me tell you what's fixing
to happen to this old world. Darkness is going to
cover the earth. The sun and the stars are going to be
darkened. Did you know that?
And those who don't know about these things,
gross darkness is going to cover the people. But the
Lord's going to rise upon somebody. And the glory of
the Lord's going to be seen upon somebody. I'm going
to end up shining out of this deal. And I wish you all
guys could shine with me, you know? But anyway,
there's a lot of things here you just don't know.
Okay. These girls are ready to talk to you.
0-»
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JOHN: Hey, David.
DAVID KORESH: Sir?
_JOHN: Are you a patient person?
DAVID KORESH: "Yeah, I'm fairly patient. I
mean, I've been patient ever since 1985.
JOHN: Well, you're going to see patience,
because the only thing that we're going to do is sit
and wait. You know that, don't you? '
DAVID KORESH: Look.
JOHN: You understand that?
ZDAVID KORESH: When my father tells me to
come out, we'll see what you do.
JOHN: Do you understand that? And I, and I
just - I really want you to understand that. That no
matter what feelings you might have and what you see
and what movement and whatever, the only thing we're
going to do is sit and wait. Because I know you're
coming out and you know you're coming out and it's when
you're told to come out, you're going to come out.
You're going to bring your flock out with you, aren't
you?
DAVID KORESH: Oh, I want to.-
JOHN: Well, I know you do.
DAVID KORESH: I, I want, I want you guys to
have a fair chance to judge me and to try me.
JOHN: Not, not you guys. Your peers.
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isn't it?DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
saying. But it
DAVID
JOHN:
-DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:28
KORESH: Yeah, those who are my peers.
That's right. That's our system,
___..- .
KORESH: 'That's yoursystem as of now.
-
No, our system. -
KORESH: That's your system as of now.
I hear you. I hear what you're
's the best system we have, isn't it?
KORESH: In the world today, yes it is.
You bet.
~KORESH: But it's not good.
Hey.
KORESH: But it's the best.
The bottom line is, were the laws of
God and man broken?
ARYVEY, a
I'm sure.DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
young
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVIDKORESH: No, just the laws of man.
Uh;-uh.
KORESH: Uh-huh.
No, no, no, no, no.
KORESH: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
lady wants to talk to you here.
Good.
KORESH: Her -- she's --
I'll talk to you a little later, huh?
KORESH: Okey-doke. Yeah. I'm going
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to get a little something else here to drink and, and
we'll get back with you. .
JOHN: Did you get up walking around today?
DAVID KORESH: -Yeah. I walked around a-
little bit today.
JOHN: Did you?
DAVID KORESH: I was going to get some
pictures out to you, but evidently you all don't want
that, so I said well, you know --
JOHN: I thought you told me last night you
were going to get me some pictures.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah. I was.
JOHN: Well, why didn't you? V
DAVID KORESH: Well, because you tell me, all
right, give me some pictures and bring us four kids
out. -
JOHN: No, you just --
DAVID KORESH: That's what - exactly that's
what Dick --
JOHN: You can send a picture out with one
child. That's fine.
DAVID KORESH: Laughter.!
JOHN: You know that.
DAVID KORESH: I was going to send you the
pictures because I thought you wanted them.
JOHN: Well, I do.
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a pictureA 30
DAVID KORESH: I was going to send you the
of the babies -- .
JOHN: I know what;you were going to send me
of. ~ T
DAVID KORESH: The babies and the mothers and
my bullet wounds.
going to
here?
the gate
out?
to you.
come outJOHN: Well, why don't you?
DAVID KORESH: Well, there ain't no girl
come with them though.
JOHN: Why not? These --
DAVID KORESH: Because they don't want to.
JOHN:i -- these pictures going to fly out
DAVID KORESH: Well, they'll bring them up to
and drop them off in the gate.
JOHN: Well, why not just let somebody come
DAVID KORESH: Or maybe Sita can bring them
JOHN: That's fine.
DAVID KORESH: But I guarantee you --
JOHN: Melissa?
DAVID KORESH: No, no. "She don't want to
yet .
JOHN: How come?
DAVID KORESH: Because you're full of shit.
q
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01
JOHN: No, how can you say that?
DAVID KORESH: Because, because it's true.
JOHN: No, you saidethat to me a little while
ago so I had somebody check
barrels and what the barrels are is gone, but there are
tubes in a barrel mount and
there and a mount for a barrel and that's all that's on
those things. There, thereas to what you called,
it's a vision device on
are no barrels on them.
It's a vision device and a mount, no barrel. So I --
what I'm trying to tell you
raise any adversarial level
DAVID KORESH: ~-
JOHN: Trust me.
DAVID KQRESH: --
Will you talk to her now?is we are not trying to
here. Trust me.
this young lady wants --
to talk with you, okay?
_ JOHN: I'll talk to you, I'll talk to you
later, too.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Here she is.
RACHEL
JOHN: Hi. Who's
RACHEL
JOHN:
huh?
RACHEL
JOHN:
of days ago?SYLVIA: Hello.
this?
SYLVIA: I'm Rachel.
Rachel? I've talked to you before,
SYLVIA: Excuse me?
I've talked to you before? A couple
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25RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
Hello. Rachel.
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
you'd like to as
RACHEL
JOHN:
Huh?
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
Massachusetts?I
r
SYLVIA: No.
You sure?
SYLVIA: Umahum.
What's your_last name, Rachel? Hm?
SYLVIA: Oh, hello.
Rachel.
SYLVIA: Yeah.
What's your last name?
SYLVIA: Sylvia.
Rachel Sylvia.
SYLVIA: Umhum.
My name's John, Rachel.
SYLVIA: Oh, hi, John.
Do you have somebody out here that
like for us to give a message to?
SYLVIA: No.
No mother, father, sister, brother?
SYLVIA: No.
You sure?
SYLVIA: Yeah, I'm sure.
Where are you from, Rachel?
SYLVIA: Massachusetts.
Massachusetts? Where in
@-: <
_ 24RACHEL
JOHN:
1 RACHEL
JOHN:I
!
SYLVIA: I don't remember.
Huh?
SYLVIA: I don't remember.
How long ago did you leave -
Massachusetts? Are you from the eastern part of the
state? The western part of the state?
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
there? Years?
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHELSYLVIA: I don't know.
Up around Boston?
SYLVIA: I don't know.
Well, how long ago did you leave
SYLVIA: Yeah.
How old are you?
SYLVIA: I'm 13.
13?
SYLVIA: Um-hum.
Is your mother and dad inside there?
SYLVIA: My mom is.
Uh-huh.
SYLVIA: Umhum.
Your dad's not?
SYLVIA: Uhuh.
What's your mom's name?
SYLVIA: Why?
Well, I'd just like to know.
SYLVIA: Lorraine.
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JOHN: Lorraine.
RACHEL SYLVIA: Yeah. .
JOHN: Okay. Now,,do you, do you know, do
you understand that David said that everyone in there,
you, your mom, and everyone else is free to leave if
they would like to leave. Do you understand that?
RACHEL SYLVIA: Could you please repeat that?
JOHN: _Do you understand that David said --
he said to me, he said to other people, that everyone
in there, you, your mother, and everyone, all the
women, all the men, all the children --
RACHEL SYLVIA: Umhum.
JOHN: are free to leave if they want to
leave. V
RACHEL SYLVIA: Oh, yeah. Everyone has their
own choice, but nobody wants to leave.
JOHN: Well, I, I just want you to understand
that. And you, and you don't care to leave. That's
your business. I understand that also.
RACHEL SYLVIA: Yeah. There's nowhere better
to go anyway.
JOHN: There's nowhere better to go? What
makes you say that? Do you have -- you've got nice,
fresh running water in there and good sanitary
conditions and a lot of food.
RACHEL SYLVIA: There's plenty of water here.
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JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
that you want in
RACHEL
JOHN:35
And heat?
SYLVIA: Yeah.
You do? ,6
SYLVIA:~ I'm very hot right now.
/
Not because of the temperature?
SYLVIA: Excuse me?
You have all the, all the comforts
there, huh? -
SYLVIA: Umhum.
Well, I want you to understand that
not only did David say that you're free to leave, but
that as far as the people on the outside here are
concerned, not only myself and the people that
represent law enforcement, but the media and, and all
of the others really expect this to
and peacefully and everyone to come
said that you all are coming out as
the word.
RACHEL
JOHN:
inside. Is that
RACHEL
- JOHN:be resolved nice
out. And David has
soon as he hears
SYLVIA: Um-hum.
You know? But you choose to stay
correct?
SYLVIA: Um-hum.
Now, you said your mom, Lorraine, is
in there with you?
RACHEL
JOHN:SYLVIA: Um-hum.
Any other brothers and sisters in
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RACHEL SYLVIA: Does it really matter? I
11183.11 "'-_J_...~
I.
JOHN: Well, I'd just like to know. Does it
offend you that I ask you that?
RACHEL
JOHN:SYLVIA: Not really, I mean, you know.
Well, do you have any other brothers
and sisters in there with you?
RACHEL
brothers left --
JOHN:"
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHELSYLVIA: Well, yeah, one
I mean, my brother left.
Whioh brother is that?
SYLVIA: Joshua.
Joshua.
SYLVIA: Yeah.
I met him.
SYLVIA: He's only about
don't know how old he is seven.
JOHN:
RACHELYeah.
SYLVIA: Yeah .of my
seven, I
JOHN: Uh-huh. Well, I want you to know that
Joshua's being welltaken care of.
RACHEL SYLVIA: Umhum.
JOHN: He's being wellclothed, well-fed, and
he's being welltaken care of. And I hope that you
will come out soon and be able to spend some time with
Joshua. He's a nice young fella.
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RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
you know, and --
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:37
SYLVIA: Um-hum.
Wouldn't you like to be with him?
SYLVIA: Well; when it's time.
What do you mean, when it's time?
SYLVIA : Well, I'm going to come out,
when --
I know you are.
SYLVIA: Huh?
I know you are going to come out,
because David said that he wants to come out and it's
just a matter of time.
RACHEL
JOHN:SYLVIA: Yeah. when God says.
Um-hum. I'm sure. But you, you would
like to come out, huh? when it's time?
RACHEL
JOHN:SYLVIA: when it's time. Not yet.
No. Now is there anything that, that
you're lacking in there? Food? Drink? Blankets?
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:
RACHEL
JOHN:SYLVIA: I have plenty of blankets.
Heat? You do?
SYLVIA: Yeah.
Clothing? Clean clothing?
SYLVIA: Um-hum.
Because that's the things that we have
provided to Joshua.
RACHEL
JOHN:SYLVIA: Um-hum.
You know. Fresh food, milk, clothing,
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blankets, sanitary conditions. And he has all of those
things and there's no reason that you don't have the
same things. _§*
RACHEL SYLVIA:" Yeah, I'm, I'm fine. Yeah,
I'm fine.
JOHN: You are fine?
RACHEL SYLVIR: Yeah, I'm fine right now.
JOHN: .Well, just remember that you and your
mom are free to leave at any time. Do you have any
other brothers and sisters in there? Let me ask you
something} Rachel. Did you see the video that we sent
in?
RACHEL SYLVIA: Yeah. There's nothing on it.
JOHN: Well, there was something on it when
we sent it in. I'll tell you that. There was
something on it when we sent it in. And Joshua was on
it, too. So that you could have seen him and you could
see that we are taking care of him and he's being well-
fed and he's being well-clothed. Because we looked at
the video before it went in and it was nice and clear
and there was no problem with it, so whether there's a
problem with the equipment in there or there's a
problem with the manner in which it was played, I can't
tell you. But it was clear when it left here.
RACHEL SYLVIA: Um-hum. when are you going
to move that dead body that's out there, laying on the
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JOHN: Well, you know, that's - I'm, I'm
glad you asked that, because,we discussed that with
David last night and we discussed it with Steven last
night and we said whenever they would like to pick up
that body and bring it out to the front gate and bring
an adult out with that body to accompany the body to
talk to the medical examiner and to ensure that the
body is cared for and properly given a Christian
burial, that we would be happy to accept that body.
And any other bodies~that may be inside the compound,
under the same conditions. So,
to decide when he wants to have
out to us. y
RACHEL SYLVIA: Well,
somebody have to come. I mean,
JOHN: Hm?it's really up to David
someone bring the body
why - well, why does
you know -
RACHEL SYLVIA: - can't you just take the
body? '
JOHN: NO. It's not our responsibility to do
that. And we're not just going to have somebody walk
up to that compound. That wouldn't be a prudent thing
to do, would it? It wouldn't be a safe thing to do
either. But we told them and, and David understands
that we'll be happy to take the body as a humanitarian
gesture and that all we want is somebody to accompany
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the body to be able to discuss the matter with the, the
County Coroner's office, the State Coroner and to
ensure that it's given a goodiChristian burial. And
that's, that's the bottom line.
RACHEL SYLVIA: Um-hum.
JOHN: Do you have any other women or
children that would like to talk to us there?
RACHEL SYLVIA: I don't -- repeat that,
please?
JOHN: I said, do you have any other women or
children that would like to talk to us there?
RACHEL SYLVIA: Oh, hold on one moment,
please.
JOHN: okay.
RACHEL SYLVIA: He wants to know if there's
any other women and children that want to talk to him.
Pause.!
RACHEL SYLVIA: Okay. Right here.
JOHN: Okay."
Pause.!
AYESHA: Hello.
JOHN: Hi.
AYESHA: Hi.
JOHN: Who's this?
AYESHA: My name is this is Ayesha.
JOHN: Ayesha. How do you spell your name,
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Ayesha? A
AYESHA: How do I spell my name?
JOHN: Yeah. ';*
AYESHA: Do you want to try it?
JOHN: Go ahead.
AYESHA: It doesn't really matter, does it?
JOHN: Well, yeah. I'd like to know how you
spell your name. Sounds like an unusual name to me.
A-ISH-A? How do you spell your name?
AYESHA: That's pretty close, yeah.
A JOHN:. Well, get me a little closer.
Pause.!
JOHN: My name's John. I know how to spell
that. J-0-H-N. How do you spell Ayesha?
AYESHA: ,It's Arabic, so there's so many ways
you can spell it, it doesn't matter.
JOHN: Just give me one.
AYESHA: Okay. Here's one. A-Y --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
AYESHA: It's the same.
JOHN: Hello.
AYESHA: AYE-SH-A.
JOHN: Uh-huh. And your last name?
AYESHA: It's just one of the ways to spell
it, you know.
JOHN: Well, what other way is there?
C
<-
Gyarfas.
really, re
name? H42
AYESHA: Oh, there's a lot of ways.
JOHN: And your last --
AYESHA: My last name is Hungarian. It's
JOHN: It's what?
AYESHA: Gyarfas.
JOHN: How do you spell that?
AYESHA: Well, it's Hungarian, so"I don't
ally know. If I --
JOHN: You don't know how to spell your last
AYESHA: GY
JOHN: G-Y?
AYESHA: Yeah. G-Y-A-R --
Tape 85 ends.!