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Q
92U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURYBUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE 106
MARCH 10, 1993
2:39 P.M. - 7:04 P.M.
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Tape 106! -
DAVID JONES: -- representations of other
peoples and I have learned to keep my mouth shut and
not tell anybody how I feel, you know, about my _
spirituality or my carnality. It's a battle of my own.
Besides, it's only me and it's a battle of me. But --
JOHN: David. Let me tell you one thing.
Number one, we don't think anybody is stupid in there.
That's we don't think that at all. And, number two,
we want to see you, David Jones, we want to see all the
people in there come out safely without anybody being
harmed. And thatfs, that's the bottom line. We just
don't want to see anybody hurt. We want to see
everybody come out safely. _
DAVID JONES: That -- I believe that. I
believe that. I know how it goes. But --
JOHN: I'm glad you do because that's really
what we want and that's the absolute truth. Is Steve
or David around?
DAVID JONES: I see no one near the phone
right now but if you would like, I can go try and find
them.
JOHN: Yeah, that would be good. It was good
talking with you and feel free to call anytime you want
to.
DAVID JONES: Okay. What's -- who is this?
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2sSteve then
could find
like some
hurt.
it.
okay?JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
him,
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
other
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVIDThis
JONES:
Yes,
JONES:3
is John.
John.
sir.
Well, nice talking to you.
It was nice talking to you David.
JONES:
Okay.
JONES:
sir.
Okay,
JONES:
Take
JONES:Let me go see if I can find
Thank you. Goodbye, sir.
Somebody went to go see if they
thank you very much.
Okay.
care of that wound.
Yeah, I'm glad I didn't get it
people did. You know.
- Well who else -- let's see. David got
JONES: Yeah.
And who else was injured?
JONES: I thought Judy's hand.
Judys hand looks bad.
JONES: It's bad. Yeah. And Scott got
Scott. How is Scott doing? Is he
JONES: I don't really know. He's
an--:4
0bandaged up. I
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVIDdon't personally know.4
How many people were killed?
JONES: Uh -
It was Perry.
JONES: Pardon.
Perry. M
JONES: Perry.
Mr. Gent.
JONES: Mr. Gent?
Yeah. I think he got killed.
JONES: Oh, I don't know.
seen anyone. I've stayed right here.
. JOHN:Yeah, yeah. Well, we're
getting everybody out safely, yourself of
included. And the sooner the better, you
everybody can get medical attention. You
get that wound infected.I have not
interested in
course
know, so that
don't want to
DAVID JONES: I cannot -- you know, they're
charging people with attempted homicide and homicide
and this and that and the other and I know that's not
going to change
JOHN: I don't know that there's been any
charged against you at all. I don't know that there's
been any charges against you, sir, at this point at
all.
DAVID JONES: Unless the truth comes out
5about what happened here, sure, they may have a legal
right in their book to come out here. But what I
thought they didn't have a legal right to do whether it
was an accident or not, by appearances, just by seeing
it, all these people seeing these guys coming up here
was cold-blooded murder.
JOHN: Well, that's the story that --
DAVID JONES: They are the ones committing
homicide. We didn't start anything.
JOHN: I know, you were on your own property.
And, that's the story that you need to get out, you
need to get out to the world, exactly the facts that
you saw from your window. So, that's what you need to
come out and tell the world. -
DAVID JONES: Can't -- excuse me, somebody is
saying something.
JOHN: Yes, sir.
DAVID JONES TO UNKNOWN PARTY: You can't --
DAVID JONES TO JOHN: They are still looking
for him. He wasn't --
JOHN: He wasn't around. Well, that's the
story --
DAVID JONES: He's going to look somewhere
else. Just a second.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID JONES: Just a second.
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JOHN: David, that's -- David?
DAVID JONES: Yeah. _
JOHN: That's the story that you need to come
out and tell the world. ,
' DAVID JONES: Yeah. , -
JOHN: You really do. You know what I mean?
You're a man of the world, you said that. And I think
that you really need to come out because you, you speak
like a guy who's been around for a while.
DAVID JONES: Yeah.
JOHN: And you need to come out and tell the
people just what happened. You need to come out and
say what the events of Sunday were. Certainly you're
an eyewitness to them. You saw them. You were
standing right at the window.
DAVID JONES: Yeah.
JOHN: And we don't want this to happen
again. So --
DAVID JONES: I've been through something
once before and going through it again, all the things
I've seen since I was a child, and there is a truth
that a lot of people don't see unless they get into it.
On one side, it looks all totally wrong but if you ever
happen to get on that other side, you gonna find out a
lot of people on that other side don't belong there,
they've been abused, and many different things that's
/"
23.7
happened because of the outlook of the one side.
JOHN: Okay. Well, either - you know»
you're waiting, I take it then, for David to lead
everybody out. Is that, is that how you feel?
DAVID JONES: I'm a man of the world.
a strong carnality. A lot of things that I like to doI have
personally, you know, and I don't mean anything off the
wall. I mean normal things --
JOHN: Nothing wrong with that.
DAVID JONES: -- like you.
JOHN: There's nothing wrong with that.
DAVID JONES: Or Joe Blow, or Suzy-Q.
JOHN: Hey, there's nothing wrong with that.
DAVID JONES: But, if that Book's true and if
somebody reveals and takes that Book out of the hand of
God in the last days, as it's already been written in
the prophesies and no one can reveal that Book except
the Lamb, then that means everyone else before has been
a liar. I mean, the things that you probably already
heard, you know. It really doesn't matter day to day
because we go to work, we sleep, we make love, we do
this and we do that. We go to Wal-Mart, we go to
Kmart, we go to church. And all those work
indiscernible! the book don't really mean nothing.
But you can't know this or experience this or anything,
you know, you cannot know anything out of that Book.
~
cu--48We're all blind and deaf, It's all right there. It
says only the Lamb can open it. All I know is a man
come along and he started opening the Book and I'm
going, yeah, yeah. And I been doing that for years;
man. Yeah, sure, yeah. And I been seeing enough at a
time to, hey, there's something here that I ain't never
seen before. Ain't nobody ever showed me before.
JOHN: How long have you been in there?
About?
DAVID JONES: I don't even live here.
JOHN: No, you just - you have another
residence somewhere else, right?
DAVID JONES: That's right. Well, another.
I have a residence somewhere else. I come here and I
visit, you know. _
JOHN: Right.
DAVID JONES: You know.
JOHN: And you were there on Sunday.
DAVID JONES: I was here on Sunday. I sure
was.
JOHN: Well, don't you think that you could
go back to the same position, working and then going,
you know, going back to your work schedule, or
something like that, rather than just staying there?
DAVID JONES: I don't know.
JOHN: Sounds like that's something you'd
_
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like to do.
DAVID JONES: I don't know. Theres a lot of
things I would like to do. There's some things that I
don't understand clearly. But I have been shown. I
understand enough to know that if I don't hold on to
something higher than this body and this flesh, I ain't
got a chance, man, and that's the basic gospel.
JOHN: Well, you can always hold onto the
word regardless of wherever you are. That's not going
to change.
DAVID JONES: Well, there's a lot of
perceptions in this world and only the Lamb can reveal
the Book. You know. Here's Steve. He just walked up.
JOHN: Okay. Thank you. Thanks. ~
DAVID JONES: See'ya, John.
JOHN: _Take care.
STEVE: Hello.
JOHN: Hi, Steve.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: How's things going?
STEVE: I was trying to get a lot of these
people -- they're having a type of worship hour right
now and I was just waiting about 10 minutes to start --
JOHN: To start --
STEVE: I haven't even started filming yet.
JOHN: Oh, you're going to start the video,
r
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okay. A
STEVE: Right. H
JOHN: Right. How is Judy's finger?
. STEVE: She said it's doing a lot better
today.
JOHN: Good, good.
STEVE: She's been soaking it with epsom salt
apparently, and with using hydrogen peroxide and a few
different things. Apparently it's come down in size
quite a bit from last night even.
JOHN: Great, great. That's good news.
Hopefully we're not infected then. That's the good
thing.
STEVE: Yeah. -
JOHN: So you're going to take the video?
STEVE:_ Yeah. Yeah.
JOHN: Okay, then we'll arrange to pick it
up. How is David doing?
STEVE: He's still I peeked in the room
again about, I'd say, about 20 minutes ago, maybe 30
minutes ago. And he still laying - he's not feeling
well. I don't know what's up. The wound keeps on
draining. It continues to do that. It's just - it's
dark. He's got a little light on. He's just kind of
more or less resting, he told me. And he's going to
continue to try to do so and -- but yeah, he's not even
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able - he's not been up and around since -- I think
it's been 2 days, maybe a day and a half, at_least.
JOHN: Did he actually walk the other day? I
mean -- ~
STEVE: I think they told me, he got right up
He wanted to stand to see if he could do thateven.
even.
JOHN: He was standing on his feet then for a
while.
STEVE: Remember when I took that video where
he was leaning up against the wall.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah. I remember that. Sure.
STEVE: He had made it in there and propped
himself like that and -- it didn't look anywhere near
as bad in that picture as it actually was. I was going
to try to zero in a little better than that.
JOHN: It didn't look too bad in the picture
at all. I mean, it looked like --
STEVE: No. Originally, it appeared like it
had hit - it had gone through the front side there,
hit his pelvis bone and then went up. He was actually
afraid it was broken but as it appears now, it doesn't
seem that way. But it is, it's an open wide wound in
the back, of course, and you can see the flesh, you
know, as it was pushed through by the bullet.
JOHN: Was he bleeding from the rear wound?
__--<12
The exit wound?
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN: That's where the blood was coming
from?
STEVE: Yes: A
JOHN: Did he lose a lot more blood or was it
just oozing out?
STEVE: So far it's fluids.
JOHN: Just fluids.
STEVE: Yeah, more than -- it is blood mixed
in but notstrong. It doesn't seem to be real bad.
JOHN: Do you think he is getting weaker?
STEVE: It didn't, you know, actually, every
day it seemed like he was gaining strength, with the
exception of until about yesterday, he started getting
the headache and not feeling too well.
- JOHN: Do you think he could be getting an
infection of some kind, maybe having a relapse, you
know. »
STEVE: That's possible. That's why I think
they're going to keep a close tab on him as they have
been and check for those signs.
JOHN: It's a funny thing, you know, when
older men get injured like that, they just go down
very, very gradually. You can almost see a
deterioration, but with a younger man, he seems - it
f
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just -- younger men just seem to go down very rapidly.
So -- yg _
STEVE: Well, what amazed everybody, like
when Jim was in connection with us as was Henry in the
beginning, the amazing part was how ~- he was -- he
thought how he was going to die that first day. I was
right here, I was talking to him. He didn't think he
would make it through the night. Well, the next day he
was around, his voice was becoming a little more weak
and they warned me those are signs of infection and so
forth and they asked that I take his vital signs. The
nurses took his blood §ressure. And, it jumped from
one extreme to the other and all of a sudden it was
almost like he was almost being healed overnight.
JOHN: It doesn't sound like it now.
STEVE: No. Well, now, it doesn't seem like
-- I mean, in watching, looking at the wound and
everything, you know. But it's hard to tell.
JOHN: Did they take his vitals today?
STEVE: I don't know if they did, in fact.
Because sometimes he'll -- they'll come by to do that
and there's sometimes he doesn't want to be bothered
because of either the way he is or just wanting to rest
still or something.
JOHN: Well, I'll tell you. Do you have a
few minutes here?
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7 JOHN:
9 JOHN:
10 STEVE:
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1 STEVE: Yeah.
2 JOHN: Okay. You know, just -- let's you and
I kind of kick around an idea. You know how rapidly we
4 get things done right? And I'm being facetious of 4
5 course.
Uh-huh.
If --
8 STEVE: Yeah, two thousand years, I know.
No, no, no. That was very good.
Well, no, I think it was Gary or
11 Henry mentioned that a way back --
JOHN: ~Two thousand years. Well, it is
almost as long here to get a tape delivered out there.
So what I kind of wanted to go through with you, you
the sake of argument, that David receives the
word shortly and that, you know, that we can bring
17 things into action once he hears from the -- from God
18 what he's going to do. How do you think we can arrange
19 it physically? In other words, when we walk out of
20 there, you know, what's going -- what will you see and,
21 you know, we'll basically do it like we did it before
22 where you come out the front door and then walk down
the driveway --
25 JOHN: -- toward the road.
_ STEVE: Exactly. Just like that Tuesday. We
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were all just going to walk right on out there and that
was going to be that. You know, if you had somebody to
pick us up, vans, whatever. In fact with him, we were
just going to carry him on the stretcher because of the
condition he was in.
JOHN: Okay, let's talk about that. How do
you think that will work? Let's just go over what we
had in mind before.
STEVE: Well, I think it would still work the
way - that same way because, you know, that hasn't
changed. He still thinks that what you guys suggested
was okay. See the whole point is he's - he doesn't
disagree with you at all because he even told me it
was, I think it was 2 days ago. -
JOHN: GOQd.
STEVE: He says that what they laid out was
fine, I agreed to it. He says that has not - he told
me, that has not changed.
JOHN: Has not changed.
STEVE: He said, the only thing, his God said
to him was wait and he said he's ready to go. '
JOHN: He's ready.
STEVE: That's what he told me, yeah.
JOHN: He's ready to go, huh. Would you
do --
STEVE: He said if I'm carried out or if I
ix
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can walk out, either or, you know, I would do that.
JOHN: Good. " -
STEVE: And he says that what they suggested
seems more than reasonable, that you know, we would l
just come out as they said and I'm sure that they'll
have the vans or whatever necessary to take us, you
know, to wherever we're going and --
JOHN: Okay. Would you be one of the men
carrying David, do you think?
STEVE: I have my doubts, I don't know if I
not.
JOHN: Okay. Why is that?would or
STEVE: Well, I don't know. I doesn't really
matter as long as it's four strong guys probably that
have hold of the, of course, the stretcher.
JOHN:. Yeah. Probably though, I think that
if I remember - my recollection is right, I think they
were going to keep you on the phone inside for
coordination. -
STEVE: Exactly. I think Gary suggested that
or something. I told him that would be fine. I said I
have no problem with that.
JOHN: Okay, so, why don't we plan then, just
tentatively, when David does hopefully receive some
indication to leave that then we can do it the same
way.
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STEVE: Okay. That would be fine. I don't
mind. You know. .
I'm
did
and
youJOHN: That'd be okay?
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN: And I think probably our --
STEVE: Originally, see what I remember --
glad that you brought that up because originally I
suggest that I wouldn't mind help carrying him out
then it was Gary that said, well, we'd like to have
on the inside and then David said, well, yeah, stay
here then. So that's how that really did begin. Okay,
so.
youJOHN: Okay, unless something happens where,
know, maybe Judy needs medical attention --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- and then you want to come out,
bring her out or something like that --
STEVE: That's true.
JOHN: That could be a contingency, so --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- you know, who would you -- let's
just run over a minute for that. Let's just go over
thecontingency that you decide, because of some
reason, to leave earlier, who would you recommend to be
on the phone on the inside to coordinate the inside?
STEVE: Oh, man.
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JOHN:
pretty reliable?18
Is there anybody who's, you know,
STEVE: I would imagine it could be Wayne
Martin, you know, the attorney.
JOHN:Wayne. Wayne, okay.' So, in other
words, when we do this, Wayne, in other words, Wayne
would be on the
STEVE: Well, let
he's -- I'm not
to do it. He would probablyphone inside
me think. I don't know --
so sure that he would even really want
want to, as originally, he
wanted to just walk out and be done with it.
" JOHN:' How about Scott or Steve?
STEVE: Well, me -- I'm the only Steve, so,
let's see Scott
JOHN:That's what I mean, Scott, rather.
STEVE: Yeah, Scott. That -- he would be
able to handle that.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
out Scott would
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
a good --Scott could handle that.
Sure he could.
Okay, so let's say then when you come
handle the phone.
Uh-huh.
How's that?
That's fine. -
All right. Good. That's sounds like
a better idea maybe.
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STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: All right. How does that sound to
you?
STEVE: That sounds all right. I have no
problem with that. P
JOHN: All right. And then we could have,
let's see, a pool camera, maybe down the road.
STEVE: Sure.
A JOHN: So, like if you're looking at it
visually, you would come out your front door and you
would move.to the_left on the road -
STEVE; Umhum.
JOHN: Your left, down the road.
STEVE: Right.
- JOHN: Okay, and then be picked up there or
if you're with Judy, you would be picked up there and
then move -- then they would move you down the road and
some type -- then just beyond the perimeter there, you
would be picked up, let's say, you and Judy, and
Mayanah, and then further down the road, there would be
a pool camera from whatever network is picked as a
pool, probably CNN --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And then you would be able to speak to
the press at that point or something like that and then
move further down the road. How does something like
.-> 4Q I
that sound to you?
STEVE: That sounds all right. I20
JOHN: Okay. You feel that that would work?
STEVE: I think so.
JOHN: Can you kind of visualize it
going to the window?
STEVE: Sure, sure, I can visualize
Sure.
JOHN: Okay. Do you see --
anything wrong with it. Do you?
STEVE: No, not at all.
JOHN: All right. Have you
with David today as far as how --I don't
had anywithout
it.
see
COHCGCC
STEVE: Yeah, I went in there about three
times, peeking, well, actually peeking my head around
the door there, opening the door and looking in on him.
And, it's kind of dark in there with the exception of a
little bitty night light on, but he was kind of on his
side, I think purposely, to try to drain the wound and
he was -- he's not feeling real sick but he says he's
- he doesn't feel well. He's not -- he didn't '
describe it well, but I could tell he just wanted to
get some rest because he's fighting apparently - oh,
he has had a little pain - I don't know if it's a
little or a lot but he, you know, he's not a
complainer.
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JOHN: Where? Where is the pain?
STEVE: Apparently in that area where the
wound is.
' JOHN: The entrance or exit wound?
STEVE: That I don't know. He didn't make
that clear to me.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: But I could tell that he had some
pain and that's why I didn't want to press it and, you
know, stand around conversing with him when he didn't
feel too well.
JOHN: Right. Have you talked to David at
all about the plan that you and I spoke of since we
first came up with the plan way back when?
STEVE: The plan about exiting here?
JOHN: About exiting, yeah, coming out.
STEVE: Yeah, yeah. In fact, he is -- he
reiterated to me that that was more than fine. He said
I gave my word. We agreed to that. And he says, that's
what we'll do. That what he told me and then I said to
him, well, when, and he says, well Steve -- he went
like that -- you know, he says, as I told him, my God
said to wait, he says, you know, you can go if you
want. He says, I have no problems with that, he says,
but I have a conscious conviction that I, I mean, I
followed this voice all this way and the information
f
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1 I've shared with you has come from the same source. He
2, says, I can do nothing but wait. So he said that to me
3 and I says, I understand, I told him and I said, well
_ 4 that's what I'll be doing, I guess, the same thing. '
- 5
f ii 5And you know, everybody got to hear about it, but, he
- says, as to the exiting of the premises, we'll still go
7 on as we said. He said, I'm just waiting for that
8 word. And, he says, that's what it comes down to, he
9 told me.
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of the residence.
theJOHN: Right. When was this?
STEVE: I think it was 2 days ago.
JOHN: About two days ago.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay, so - as -- I have the photo
here and as I can see,
front
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE-
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:there is kind of a fence in
and there's some cars parked in
There's got to be one point
door is, right?
Exactly. It's white -- two white
Okay.
Toward the right of the building.
Okay, so that would be the exit point.
Exactly.
So, you would come out there then,
okay, then pass the fence and get kind of to the middle
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of the road.
STEVE: Right. "
JOHN: Okay, then make a left in the middle
in the road -- '
STEVE: And just walk and follow it right
around.
JOHN: And pretty much stay in the middle of
the road, between the two grassy sections. Okay, come
down to the end of the road.
STEVE: In fact, it depends upon the weather,
you know, like when I walked out there to get the
stretcher that day with Greg, that was me, it was very
muddy. It was wet and muddy so we kind of got off to
the side a little bit there. I'm talking about real
muddy and hopefully if it's dry or it's been windy and
sunny, it should be dried out and should be okay but it
depends upon the weather, I guess.
JOHN: What would be better then, to walk in
the middle -- on the hard surface --
STEVE: Probably off to the side a little
bit.
JOHN: Off to the side of the road.
STEVE: I mean, it would be okay to go right
down the middle if it hasn't been raining. Any time it
rains at all around here, it turns into clay and mud
right off.
§
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JOHN: Okay, so then, probably toward the
side would be a little bit -- H _
STEVE: Yeah. "
. JOHN: -- better footing. Okay. All right,
then come down to the end and then just pause there
momentarily at the end of the road and then make a left
turn. Does that seem -- that seems pretty accurate
then.
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN: All right, I think we've got kind of a
visualization of when you come out what it's going to
look like. So one second.
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN: Okay, somebody just mentioned to me,
and they're being thoughtful, which I, you know, I
apologize for not thinking about it myself, is that
when David is brought out on the stretcher, would they
-- where would they put him? Obviously gently. At the
intersection? Carry him all the way down to the
intersection? .
STEVE: That sounds about right, yeah. At
the intersection.
JOHN: Okay, so they would so four able-
bodied guys would bring him down the road to the
intersection where they would gently put him down on
the stretcher in the road and then we could have the
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ambulance be --
STEVE: Exactly, that's what they've told us,
an ambulance there ready to take him, right. '
' JOHN: All right. Now, who are we going to-
have with David besides the four strong able-bodied
men?
STEVE: What -- I'm not -- I don't really
remember --
JOHN: How about some children?
STEVE: Yeah, he did mention the children, I
do remember that being part of it. That - in fact all
the children would then leave right then with him.
JOHN: All right, so we'd have all the
children with David, then. '
STEVE: Right, and I think we mentioned about
them being picked up in another vehicle or something --
JOHN: Yes, we can put them in a separate
vehicle, maybe a couple of the children could go with
David in the hospital-type carrier.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: Okay, and any of the children who need
to be carried, let's have the women carry those tiny
little infants.
STEVE: Okay, I think we came down to two
women that would carry the infants.
JOHN: Two women. Right. And the pregnant
~
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women also, of course, obviously, are going to be
there. E '
STEVE: Yeah.
' JOHN: How soon are the pregnant woman
expecting? _
STEVE: I think one is expecting in a month
or two, from what I understand.
JOHN: That's the closest one.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay. So then, she wouldn't have any
problem walking out. V
STEVE: No, she wouldn't. No.
JOHN: She doesn't need a stretcher. Okay.
And everybody else is ambulatory. Scott?
STEVE: Scott is, at first he was having a
hard time but now he is able to walk. So he should be
able to - the bullet is still in the thigh or the leg.
JOHN: We'll then we'll have - I'm glad you
mentioned that. We'll have to make arrangements that
obviously he get medical attention right away.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And then maybe he could be put his
arms around another couple of able-bodied guys to kind
of help him.
STEVE: That would help.
JOHN: That would -- why don't we plan on
/ Q->:4
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doing that then?
STEVE: Okay. 4
JOHN: All right, so we've got that -- let's
get that squared away. That's a good way we can have
him ~- I don't -- the_poor guy, I don't want him
falling down on the way out or something.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Can you think of anything else that
we've missed?
STEVE: Not really. Let's see. I guess
that's about it. Everybody else seems able-bodied
enough to walk out and I guess they'd be okay.
JOHN: You know, I can see this as working
very, very well- This will go very well and very
smoothly and then the absolute best part is that nobody
is going to get hurt in a situation like this.
STEVE: But see this way -- I actually would
have thought that this would have been over way back
that Tuesday. I really did and it did come as a
surprise to me that --
JOHN: Me too. Me too.
STEVE: It really did.
JOHN: You know, I'll tell you, another good
thing is that, you know, just visualizing this, I can
see that pool camera and I think that this is also
going to work very well as far as being the proper way
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to do things, not only safely, but, you know, it's
going to look good in the press, CNN, the pool camera,
and I think the whole thing is just going to be smooth
without anybody falling or getting hurt anymore, you u
know, and that's the bottom part of this. No injuries.
No hurt. So, I'm trying -- you know, did you ever say,
like I'm thinking I'm missing anything and you can't
put your finger on what it is.
STEVE: Yeah. We'll be communicating so if I
come up with anything, you do, you know, we can bring
that up and look at it,
JOHN: Yeah, all right. And now, you going
to go ahead and make the video?
STEVE} Right.
JOHN: Okay. And how many people do you
think -- t *
' STEVE: I don't know. So far, it seems like
there's even a few that were on yesterday. They wanted
- they said, and just because they forgot to say a lot
of things -- a lot of them wanted to actually say
thanks to some of the guys in your department --
JOHN: Well that would be nice.
STEVE: Yeah, that actually have tried and
shown some sincerity and they wanted to thank, you
know, anybody for the attempt to try to do the best
thing and they mentioned -- asked me just a moment ago
IQ-__,<29
if they could get back on. I said, sure, I don't care.
I'm going to use 150 minute tape this time. _
' JOHN: Oh, okay. Great. '
STEVE: So whatever they want to do, I said
go ahead. You know, he, David just told me to tell
anybody can say anything they want. It doesn't matter
what it is, pro, con about us, about them, about
anything. He says, you know, feel free. He says, you
know --
JOHN: Excellent.
STEVE: So, I was just going to get ready and
start working with all these people.
JOHN: I really liked your idea about making
a tape for the negotiators. That's probably a really
good idea.
STEVE: Yeah.
_ JOHN: Something to do. You'd probably enjoy
taking a look at the tape, seeing what's attached to
these voices.
STEVE: Sure. Exactly. I wouldn't mind
seeing what you - of course, you've got a picture of
me but you always wonder what the guy looks like on the
other side of the phone. I've never, in my life, I've
never been close and I have met someone over the phone
or have gotten to know someone then the day you finally
meet them, I've never been close. What I have
5
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visualized or pictured in my mind is so far away from
what it actually is. - -
JOHN: Yeah, that's usually the way. That's
usually the way. By the way, you know, discussing when
you come out, what things are going to look like, how
do you think everybody else will feel about this plan?
Do you think it'll be okay?
STEVE: Well, so far, yeah, just as it was a
week ago. You know, they were just going to -~
everybody was more or less -- they put on some clothes,
I mean the kind of clothes that, you know, after a
while when you're in here so long, and everything, they
decided to put on some halfway decent clothes and get _
ready to just come out and what -- you know, whatever
happens. And they felt that it had been worked out to
that point in time where everything was okay.
JOHN: Good.
STEVE: And from talking to Jim and people
since, like I said, everything -- it hasn't really
changed to a degree other than the press part, you
know, that being cut off and stifled along with the
movements around the perimeter is the only thing that
has got different ones concerned. Other than that, he
made -- he said what he said and they realize that.
They really do. They all realize that. And, I think
many of them hope -- well, they do, that it will be
I
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.31
resolved soon because the truth of the matter is, you
know, those that are here even, with the waiting, it
gets to them. It really does. '
r JOHN: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure of that.
There's no question about that.
STEVE: So really it's a test for them.
David knows it's a test for them too, just, I mean he's
really not talking to anybody. He's not really
communicating with anybody.
JOHN: He's not, huh?
STEVE: No, not at all.
JOHN: Not at all.
STEVE: Just me, once in a while, I check and
see how he is. -In fact, he does more talking with you
people, like he has in the evenings. I mean, it amazes
me. I'll walk away, come back hours later and he's
still on the phone.
JOHN: You know, more and more, I think you
and I are moving in the right direction. I really feel
more positive now than I ever have. How are you
feeling?
STEVE: Well, the same. You know, I mean,
but I -- right from -- I have not wanted to say a lot
about it but I have thought right from the beginning
that this could be resolved but of course when that
question came up about when and this waiting thing --
~
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it's hard for me to express to persons like yourself,
you know, you don't want to be giving excuses: You
want to make up some kind of a story or a scenario so,
it's difficult, you know, it's -- -
JOHN: You know, maybe it's a good thing that
David's having a quiet day. Sometimes, you know, you
can reach a decision, a major decision when you have
some quiet time and maybe that's what's happening.
STEVE: That's probably true.
JOHN: Let's hope so. Let's hope so.
> STEVE: _He did -- he always - I mean, it may
be hard for you people to believe but he honestly says
to me, he likes you individuals, he definitely likes
this Harwell and this Thorne. I don't know who they
are, but he mentioned those by name. But, he has no
problems with you people at all.
_ JOHN: Well, good, let's keep up this good
line of communication we have and --
STEVE: And of course, he's got this deep
conviction, his deep belief that books like Habakkuk
and Nahum will be fulfilled and he doesn't want to see
individuals like yourself involved where you've had
opportunity to hear information, to evaluate it, to
give it a verdict, but to disregard. I mean - you
know, he always brings up the story of Noah and that
generation, everybody disregarded. They all had to
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learn how to swim. And it seems like this generation,
this nation is ripe for judgement also. We've all got
our theories and opinions. We're all so -- everyone of
us, you and me both, we're all proud of what, I don't
know because we're subject to death. But we are, we're
proud. Very innately selfish and these are the
warnings that come in the final days. Ultimately the
6,000 years has -- it does come to an end. But, you
know, this is what he'll bring out to me in relation to
you guys, that he has this deep concern about
individuals.
JOHN: Yeah; that's true.
STEVE: Even though you're part of a system
and, like I am, the Bible calls it a beast because all
of us are people but yet we're animals. We eat like
they do, we sleep, we drink, we have sex, we die like
an animal. The difference between man and an animal,
even though God calls all these nations like ours
beasts, the difference is we can catch a higher vision
of something better. And you know, move it around our
minds and weigh it out.
JOHN: Well, you're going to make sure those
nurses check on David to make sure he's okay.
STEVE: Yeah. Every - periodically, I'll do
that every few hours. I'll take a look.
JOHN: That would be a good idea. And also,
"7/'.@-»34
you know, don't let some of the things going on around
out there, so called activities out there, you know,
give you the wrong idea. i
' STEVE: Well, see, on the whole, they don't
bother me. It's when these people come to me very
excitedly, hey there's 17 guys in the dark running
around there. There's is this -- they roll -- they
just ran over and buried a motor cycle. You know,
these are taunting, provoking things and being that you
told me the FBI is in charge, well it shocks me because
I've always pictured these men very intelligent,
wearing suits, coming across well to the public. Some
of the better class --
JOHN:" Well look --
STEVE: -- of America, American society, with
a good background and chosen well and so forth. So
when you hear things like that --
JOHN: We like to think that it's still true.
Believe me.
STEVE: Well, that's what I mean. And when I
know that they're involved in these tanks and running
over, you know, vehicles and things like that, I mean,
you can't help but be concerned.
JOHN: I know what you're saying. But by the
same token, you know, they don't know you like we know
you. You know what I mean.
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STEVE: Right.
JOHN: So, they don't have the same _
relationship with them and that's really what counts.
So let's hang in there. Why don't you give me a call
when you have the video made. '
Okay. ByeSTEVE: Okay, that might be a little while.
JOHN: Yeah, sure. I can appreciate that.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Good. Talk to you later, Steve.
STEVE: Okay. I'll talk to you later then.
JOHN: Take care.
itiii
NICOLE: Hello. -
JOHN: Hi, this is John. Who's this?
NICOLE: This is Nicole.
Hi, Nicole. How are you?JOHN:
NICOLE: Okay.
JOHN: Okay, good. Is Steve or David around?
NICOLE: Can you hold the line for a minute?
JOHN: Surely.
NICOLE: We're going to get Steve right now.
JOHN: Thank you.
pause!
STEVE: Hello.
JOHN: Steve.
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STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: How you doing?
STEVE: I'm trying to get some interviews but
it's going so slow today.
JOHN: How many did you get done?
STEVE: Just hardly none.
JOHN: Hardly none.
STEVE: No one -- everybody keeps running
around saying they'll be back in a minute and I'm
sitting there waiting. I get talking to someone and I
says, well now, where are they all at? And, oh, it's
-- I'm annoyed.
JOHN: You got to get them squared away. How
is David feeling? v
STEVE: Just a minute. Let me -- right now I
am a little ways away.
STEVE to someone in background: Has anybody
peeked in on David? He is.
STEVE TO JOHN: Yeah, they looked in on him.
I guess he's sound asleep right now.
JOHN: S0 he --
STEVE: Let me ask here because there's
someone here that's been with him a little more.
JOHN: Yeah, ask --
STEVE to someone in background: How has he
been? Is he sick or --
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STEVE TO JOHN: She says he's real weak and
sore, I guess. ~ -
JOHN: Who is that there?
STEVE: David.
JOHN: I know, but who is the - was it
Julianne?
STEVE: Yeah, she looked in on him and she
said that he's real weak and sore.
JOHN: Oh, geez.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Is she near the phone?
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: Is she near the phone? Julianne near
the phone? ' '
STEVE: Julianne near the phone?
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Not -- she just walked -- in fact she
was just here. She just walked around the corner.
JOHN: Okay. All right. What kind of nurse
was she?
STEVE: Let me ask someone here if they know.
STEVE to someone in background: Does anybody
know? What kind of a nurse is Villa? Anybody know? A
what kind? Indiscernible female voice in background!
What? Yeah, ask her.
STEVE TO JOHN: They're going to ask her. I
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don't know but --
JOHN: I was wondering whether she was a
trauma nurse or -- V
' ' STEVE: Yeah, I wonder. I don't -- from what
I notice and observed, I don't think they have much _
experience with accidents and that type of thing.
Emergency type things.
JOHN: Emergency room or traumatic injuries.
STEVE: Right. Right.
JOHN: Like we said before, there's a big
difference in nursing and doctors, you know.
STEVE: Exactly. Exactly.
JOHN: Have you had a chance to talk to David
at all today? l
STEVE: Not at all.
JOHN: Not a word, huh?
STEVE: Remember when I talked to you last, I
had looked in the door a couple of times and I just
said a few things to him and he was on his side with
his back to me looking at ~ facing the wall, eyes were
closed and he just mumbled a couple of things to me and
he said he wasn't feeling well and so I says, if you
need me just holler or call or let someone know and
I'll come over there.
JOHN: Yeah. Like I said before, sometimes
older men just go down hill a little -- very slowly,
92Q I
39
but --
STEVE: Younger. . .
JOHN: Younger men just go real quickly. I
mean they just seem to lose their strength. One day'
they'll have their strength and the next day --
STEVE: You know, it's really strange because
he'll make an effort to kind of like sit up or so. He
hasn't done anything like that today. He hasn't talked
to anybody, he's been real quiet. So I told them to
continue to keep an eye on him and let me know what's
going on.
JOHN: Wellf like I said before, I sure hope
it isn't blood poisoning or anything like that.
STEVE: Yeah, right. "
JOHN: I just don't want to see a bad sign
there, you know, but this loss of energy like that
could be a bad sign. Well, we'll hope for the best.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: So, I didn't want to leave without
saying goodnight and --
STEVE: Oh, you're taking off then.
JOHN: Well, not right away. We generally
are here until about 6 o'clock. But the night shift
will be here and you can set up a delivery of the tape
with those gentlemen.
STEVE: Okay. It's going so slow right now.
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A lot of these people, you know, they're saying well,
what should I say, what should I do. I says, well,
that's up to you. You know, whatever you want. And
someone was saying, some of these guys, well, I don't
like really sitting in front of a camera; I don't know
what to say, other than we're waiting to get out of
here. You know, that's what a lot of them have said.
I mean, I can say I want to get out but I'm waiting for
that word and then we're out of here.
JOHN: Right. Did you get a chance to view
the tape that was sent_in today with the children?
STEVE: Yeah. I played it for a number of the
different ones that would have children there and I
called them and I says, do you want to come see?
There's a tape that's been sent. So they came and
viewed it and. See, it was I mean, you guys mean
well but you don't understand that on the whole they
rarely get sugar. I mean, what they get is fruit or
dried fruit or like pineapple pieces. Once in a while
they are given cookies and things but on the whole, you
know, they're not fed a lot of - it's a treat that
they get once in a while.
JOHN: Yeah. I thought, I thought of that
when I was viewing it this morning.
STEVE: But they realize, you know, I mean,
we all come from out of the world and we've looked
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2541
closely into dietary programs and plans and --
JOHN: Right. -All ice cream is largely milk,
so -- ~
STEVE: The women, of course, as of I
yesterday, like I mentioned, they were not happy about
the -- it seemed like there was a lack of discipline
and they were acting like wild uncontrollable kids and
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: It's not that they don't have fun
here. We've got big sand boxes. They're outside a lot
of times playing and so forth but it's usually
supervised and there is always something constructive
about everything. Something to be learned. »
JOHN: Yeah. Well, you know, you can
certainly call the night shift when the tape is ready
and then do a little now, do a little later. However,
you want to do that. But I wanted to say one thing and
that is, I really appreciate how much personal progress
I think we've made today. I
STEVE: Okay. Same here.
JOHN: And I would like to do the same
tomorrow.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: And I really feel good about our
relationship today. I hope you do.
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STEVE: Yeah, I do. I really do.
JOHN: Good. Good.
STEVE: You know, I've got the anxiousness
also of something, of things being resolved. I have u
the time element, of course. You know, I'm the type
that likes to get -- if you look at my past,
something's happening. Even with friends. If ever
I've had a falling out with a friend, I always, within
minutes go right back and like to get things resolved.
JOHN: Yeah, rather than one of these not-
talking-for¢1O-year-type relationships.
STEVE: Exactly. I'm the opposite of that.
So you know, with something like this, I mean, I'd like
to see it taken care of so, I mean. A lot of us are
anxious. So, you know, we're waiting and that aspect
is hard. :- ~
- JOHN: Very hard.
STEVE: You know, no one really has a great
joy in that but, by the way, so --
JOHN: Well, I'll be honest with you, it's
not that easy on this side either.
STEVE: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure.
JOHN: Well, I look forward to talking with
you tomorrow.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Have a good evening and you can just
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2.43
give them a buzz when you have the tape ready and we'll
STEVE: Okay. Well, thanks much, John.
JOHN: Take care.
STEVE: I'll talk to you tomorrow.
JOHN: Good night.
STEVE: Bye-bye.
End Tape 106!
an
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25>U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
. TAPE #107
3/10/93"~ 7204 p.m. 9:34 p.m.
2.N
Tape 107! '
MICHELLE CATLIN: Hello. May I speak to Mr.
or Mrs. Simmont Phonetic!?
, MAX: Hello. Hello.
MICHELLE CATLIN: Hello, Mr. Simmont?
MAX: Hello? l
MICHELLE CATLIN: Hello?
MAX: Hello? I can't hear you.
MICHELLE CATLIN: Hello, Mr. Simmont? This
is Michelle Catlin Phonetic! from the First National
Bank of Omaha. I'm calling, Mr. Simmont, to advise --
MAX: Miss, there's no one like that here.
believe you have the wrong number, operator.
MICHELLE CATLIN: Thank you for your time,
sir. -
*i***
STEVE: Hello.
MAX: Hello, Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
MAX: This is Max.
STEVE: Max, how are you doing?
MAX: I'm doing all right.
STEVE: Good, good.
MAX: How are you feeling today?
STEVE: Exhausted. I'm real tired. I think
I might be coming down with a sore throat here.
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MAX: You sound a little tired, but you got a
lot to do in there. __ _
STEVE: Yeah, with trying to get a lot of
these people together to get some more video, as I A
wasn't doing so well today.
tired or some one says after me, after me, and -- IThey're either sleeping or
don't know. I guess I'm worn out today.
MAX: Yeah. You do sound a bit tired.
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: Well, how do you feel about the
progress today?
STEVE: Well, I thought we'd been doing very
well, to be honest with you. I spent some good moments
with John and discussing a lot of the different things
that we were picking up on from even a week ago, and
trying to, I guess, get something going here again.
MAX: I was talking to John a few moments ago
and he feels the same way. He felt very good about
the, the day. A little discouraged from the morning,
he said you gave him a pretty, pretty tough wake up,
but things got better after that.
STEVE: Well, you know, I was sleeping, --
MAX: You're not a morning person, huh?
STEVE: -- and the first thing, all of a
sudden, it's like, bang, right head on and when I went
to bed everything was going fine with you and I and I
-
, <4
just took for granted that in the morning, we're going
to pick up on it, I had all these things that you and I
had talked about -~ 4
. MAX: Hey, I'm here, let's go.
STEVE: Yeah, well, that's what I mean, you
know, even like the camera, I had plugs in the wall,
and then there was no electricity. I thought, what in
the heck, see that, I mean, it was the whole business.
MAX: Yeah, well, like I said, we kind of,
kind of lose influence out here occasionally and, and
we have to pay the cost just like you do when something
like that happens, so --
STEVE: Yeah, well, yeah, we talked about it
then for a while, and -- '
MAX: The second video of the kids is in
there, I understand. Was that a little more acceptable
than the earlier one or --?
STEVE: Well, I guess the question that came
up was some of them wanted to know where this child
was, where that child was. I think there must have
been a handful of them that weren't in there and I
guess they wondered where they might be or what was
happening with them. You know how it goes.
MAX : Okay .
STEVE: And then, Kathy Schroeder, she came
to me and wanted to know what was the latest, because
an»
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5she never wanted her youngest one, the little one, the
three year old to be ever separated from the oldest
boy, I guess. He's always been the most responsible,
watching over him, and from what she can understand, I
guess, three are gone and, and he remains on his own,
so -- V
MAX: I think there's a problem with the
Health and Human Services there. They, I heard a
little bit about that. I believe it's a matter of him
not being a blood relative that they had to go --
STEVE: I wouldn't doubt that.
MAX: '4? towgo through some further process
before they can resolve that, but --
STEVE; Do you know if --
MAX: .-- but it's not in our hands --
STEVE: The father that took the three, I
wonder if he even wants him or, what would, what do you
know about that? I
MAX: .I sure couldn't, wouldn't even try to
speak for him on that, Steve.
STEVE: Yeah, yeah.
MAX: I'm just going --
STEVE: I know she's real concerned. She
comes to me quite frequently and I, of course, I really
don't know much about it, so --
' MAX: Well, if she has some, of she's really
O O
6
concerned, Steve, and you think it's a point that we,
that you're going to pass it along with a request for
us to make some specific efforts to check_it out, well
get the questions and then come to us and we'll see
what we can do. i
STEVE: Right.
MAX: If it becomes that big a concern in
there.
STEVE: There was a number of them that came
to me today and they wanted to either resolve -- ask
questions of you or John, and I says, right them down_ _ ._ __~._
by the phone, leave them for me. I know there's at
least three or four of them, minimum, and I'm looking
right here by the phone, I see nothing, so it's like, I
got to go try to remember who said what and, and search
them back out and-ask what they had in mind.
MAX: Well, if you got as much paper before
you as I do before me, -- i
STEVE: Oh, I'm sure I don't.
MAX: -- I understand that.
STEVE: I'm sure I don't.
MAX: Well, it sounds like you may with the
messages coming from all directions. It's hard being
the middleman.
STEVE: Yeah, I guess it is.
MAX: Let's see, some other things here,
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looking at my paper right now. Judy's hand.
STEVE: It seems to be doing a lot better.
She apparently took it on herself to start soaking it
in'epsom salt along with, I think she's been using '
hydrogen peroxide, and it's come down in size after, as
much as the last ten days, quite surprisingly in the
short time. I think she dressed it and redressed it
and soaked it about three times between last night and
this morning.
MAX: I'm glad to hear that it's improving.
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: It sure looked bad and from what you
had said it was something of -- really concern to all
of us. John was telling me that you made mention of
her wrist being sorer than her finger, and that
concerned me, like; you know, there was something
traveling up the arm. What's the --
STEVE: Oh, yeah, well, see she was reaching,
apparently, out for something that Sunday. She was in
the room when a bullet, a bullet came through the wall
and it, it hit her in the finger, traveling along the
top part of the bone and right around where the knuckle
is, where the finger joins the hand, it went in, it
went in.
MAX: We can see it.
STEVE: Yeah, you saw that then.
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MAX: You said the wrist. was that the
soreness from the actual wound or is this a, a
infection type thing creeping up the arm? Blood
poisoning or something? _
4 STEVE: Apparently, maybe it was a
miscommunication, but it was --
MAX: Okay.
STEVE: -- it's the finger, mainly, that the
problem is. The shoulder seems to be okay, it doesn't
seem like there's any problems there.
MAX: Okay, well, he mentioned the wrist
being sorer than the finger and that was what concerned
me, but you clarified that.
STEVE: Right, okay, yeah. I don't, I don't
know of anything with the wrist, actually.
MAX: And David, how is he feeling this
morning? I understand it's been some time since he's
been --
STEVE: Yeah, he's been, since you talked to
he's been in the same place, he's not movedhim last,
MAX: That's been over 24 hours.
STEVE: Exactly, exactly, and the wound's
been draining, the headache seemed to have lasted quite
some time. He had a lot of soreness and wasn't feeling
well. In fact, I think someone might be speaking to
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him, now, finally, after all this time. I could go
check just to make sure. Hang on a minute.
MAX: We'll get around to him. I just wanted
to know -- .
[gap] _ ' A
STEVE: Yeah, he says -- I just went in there
and looked and he says he's had a real -- that headache
has just not stopped, he still has a headache, he, the
ooziness slowed up, the draining, and -- are you there
Max?
MAX: Yes, I'm here.
STEVE: Okay, and he says he's, he's not
still recovered from feeling well, he's just laying
there just -- he's just not feeling well at all.
MAX: Is, is it all related to the wound -
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: -- or is it something different?
STEVE: No, it's related to the wound,
because ~-
MAX: We talked to some people that said he
would occasionally, or had occasionally had some
problems with headaches, and I just wondered if this
was something different.
STEVE: Not really. From what I understand,
the first one he's had was just last night about the
time, I think, you got on the phone, no, even earlier
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him complaining
about -- and he never, he's not a person to have
headaches in the first place. That's what was
surprising about it.
MAX: Is, are you monitoring his signs? Do
you still have a nurse looking at him?
STEVE: Right, they, they, when he spends
sleeping and doing real well sleeping, they've decided
to leave him be. But, you know, when he comes around
like that then they'll check with him and, and keep an
eye on him._ _H_ M
MAX: Well, I'd like to suggest that, you
know, someone, again, sort of keep up, monitoring. If
he's not feeling better it's still not too late for an
infection or some think like that, and if he, you know
loses too much, if his acuity and sharpness here, I
think the whole process we're involved in will suffer,I
so we want to make sure he stays as healthy -- Could
you take some steps or encourage him
blood pressure occasionally and make
a good, accurate reading? Check for
just, you know, overall condition toto, to take the
sure that you get
fever, pulse, and
make sure --
STEVE: Yeah, I try to do that, you know, as
much as possible, but, you know, of course, there are
times where he's either in a frame of mind or in pain
to the place where he just wants to be resting and not
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25_11be bothered unless he wakes up and -- So I try to tell
these, the nurses to keep an eye on, on him for-that
and to feel frequently they can take the vital signs.
MAX: This whole process is slowing down '
considerably without someone at the helm.
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: So we'd like to see him stay, stay up
and active or get some attention, get some medical
attention, you know, one way or the other.
STEVE: I'm not sure why, but, you know,
through the day I had a pretty strong signal with John
on the phone, but I don't, but the signal is extremely
weak, I mean, I can hear you, but it's not like --
MAX: VI just have a soft voice, Steve, and I
catch myself getting sincere and getting quiet
occasionally. I'll try to speak up for you.
STEVE: No, it's actually, it's actually the
signal. Oh, just a minute. Speaks to the background!
MAX: Is it on your end?
STEVE: Oh, I guess, it was presented to him
today that the guys in the back there, there was a
$14,000 investment, the Harley Davidson, and he's, he's
concerned because he was told that they ran it over and
buried it and he wants to know what, how that relates
to the negotiations or how that relates to you and I
working this out and to, finishing up this process. I
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mean, I don't know --
MAX: You lost me, Steve.
STEVE: Pardon?
I ' MAX: You lost me on that one. Could you '
rephrase that? _ I
STEVE: Okay, see, in the back, in the back
here, on the north side where that white block barn is,
you know, there, we, of course, monitor and watch, but
they've run over and buried different motorcycles,
they've moved them out of the garage into the elements.
Then they've done things like knocked them over,
they've taken, like, maybe the tank or whatever, and
run over the top of one and buried it under dirt.
MAX: _Oh. '
STEVE: And, you know, these are the kind of
things -- He's wondering what this, what the program
is.
MAX: Well, like I said, I'm twelve miles
away, Steve, I've, I'm looking at a picture here at a
map, trying to figure out where the barn is so I can
direct somebody's -- '
STEVE: Okay, he said he paid, like, 11,000,
you know, that, 11,000 went to that bike and it's worth
about 14, and he made that investment for women and
children as -- Like, even the black corvette, he got
it very cheap, and, and the reason for that, it's an
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investment where, of course, after a little time it's
turned back in and there's money for, for passing out
to what our beliefs are and, of course, supporting
those that come here with really no money and -- 4
MAX: Well, I, it's unfortunate, and like I
told you yesterday and we personally had an experience
with -- we, I don't have control over everything that
happens and --
STEVE: Right.
MAX: I don't even know who, you know, _
personally, those people up there, close to you. They,
-- and we're, because"of our lack of success here and
progress in resolving this thing, some other people are
having their say right now, and that's, that's kind of
out of our hands.
The, the best, you know, answer I can give you,
Steve, is, Dave, whoever's listening, that, that's an
issue that you can take up when you come out. The
attorney's file suit for the price of the motorcycle.
That's just the way, you know, the situation is
handled, it's, -- but as for right now, --
STEVE: Mas, even you're --
MAX: --for me telling somebody to go out
there and stop it? I can't do it.
STEVE: Max, have you ever, is this the usual
way that these agencies work? Apparently it is, huh?
an-~- <14
Total disregard of property and all that sort of thing,
huh? . » -
MAX: Oh, I'm not, it's not any standard
procedure, I don't think this is standard procedure '
from where you are either. This is a very abnormal
situation for everybody concerned, --
STEVE: Yeah.
MAX: -- and you're gonna, I think we can
expect some abnormal things happening from both sides,
and it has.
STEVE: Can you imagine --
. >. .,'-'
indiscernible! MAX:
STEVE: - if we had --
MAX:" - conversation.
STEVE: Can you imagine if we had, or went
and did something.that contrary to, of course, the
agreements we've had with you, like that? You know, we
see that -- like, these guys, watch these guys, like,
they, they're tearing up the property, of course, with
these tanks, these bulldozers, whatever they are, and
they got one stuck in the back, of course, and another
one the track came off and they're pulling that all
over the place --
MAX: Well --
STEVE: And of course, these guys have the
ability to -- it's just like their attitude here is not
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they don't want to do anybody harm or anything like
that, but on one hand we, we have that your guys, they
get itchy and nervous if they see someone going out and
dropping water off, old water or something like that;
you know, the usual thing that we've always done for
the time we've been here, but I mean, those are the
things that, and it hardly makes sense, you know, it
hardly makes any sense.
MAX: No, a lot of this doesn't make sense
to, to us out here and I'm sure a lot of it doesn't
make sense to you in there.
STEVE: No, I, you know --
MAX: But, there are things that we can
resolve -- '
STEVE: I'm talking about the one way, I'm
talking about the one-way street, you know, I mean, you
expect us to comply and to call you and so forth and,
you know, part of life, of course, is drinking water
and, and disposing of water, and I get a call
frequently from you guys about, you know, the simple
things of life that are, that are natural and that are
needful, and here, there are other things going out
there that, destroying of property, the digging up of,
you know, dirt and the taking over buildings and, and
wrecking the buildings and, I mean, it's, hmmm.
MAX: Well, I hate to see things like that
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happening, but what bothers me even more is that things
like that, and things like the signs for the media and
things like fire crackers in the middle of the night
and the moonings and all these other peripheral issues
are taking away from the idea that we need to keep
communicating. We need to make some progress --
STEVE: Well, you know, you and I have been
doing that.
MAX: -- on saving some lives and bringing
people to safety.
STEVE: What were you saying about the signs
now, or what was that now?
MAX: Oh, just the sheets that you hang out
the window, the signs, you know, that the media flags
on and, and keeps _--
STEVE: I like that. Don't, don't you, I
like that --
u MAX: It's your right, sure.
STEVE: Yeah, don't you like that?
MAX: It's, there's nothing wrong with that.
But it's just not centered to the issue.
STEVE: Oh, but it is. No, no --
MAX: No more than the Harley Davidson
motorcycle --
STEVE: Really, it is.
MAX: -- is centered to the issues.
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STEVE: You know, I want your rights always
to be guaranteed. W V -
MAX: Your rights are out here waiting on
you, Steve.
STEVE: Max, I_want your rights to always be
guaranteed for you. Whether you're an atheist, an
agnostic, a buddhist or whatever.
MAX: That has nothing --
STEVE: I really respect, I respect that
because I can't judge you. Who knows if I'm right or
wrong or whatever else. But that's what I love so much. . _, _ w_.
-- I've traveled around the world and what an awesome
country because of this constitution because people
fled the tyranny of the old world. But now that
tyranny is resurfacing, just like -~ when you read
Abraham Lincoln and Madison and Jefferson, they warned
about the very things that these agencies like you're
involved in are doing and have become. I mean, not
that -- I mean, you mean well, you've got a position
there and on the whole, if you're after drug people or
you're after people that are trying to destroy or harm
this freedom, it makes sense. I've always had respect
for that agency, like I've told you, but, obviously,
you know, you can see some-- who's watching the
watchdog, is the question, and there's definitely been
atrocities that have been taken place, freedom's that
-
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.18are eroding, and it concerns a lot of Americans that
have minds that can think and compare and in_relation
to, I heard what Bob Ricks said this morning; on that
press conference, and that really bothered me. How he
kind of, more or less, warned the press and the man
that suggested about seeing if we're still here, I
mean, here the guy is --
MAX: What part bothered you, Steve?
STEVE: This morning, when Bob Ricks
mentioned about any interference of press or anything
of that nature. And these people are concerned about
rights, their own rights. I mean, if what happened to
us, by the ATP, in the manner it happened, happened to
us so easy, and there's been no real investigation yet,
everybodys concerned. I mean, if this didn't happen
to me and I was on the outside looking in, where you
are, Ifd be extremely concerned like they are.
MAX: Do you see, in those press conferences,
when they show the photograph - that portion of the
room where the audience is seated, all of the reporters
out there, all of the microphones in front of those
people, all of the questions that are asked? They are
people asking questions. We are going to be
challenged, ATF's going to be challenged. You're going
to be challenged when you come out. But that's what
this system is about.
/
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STEVE: But it bothers me -- E
MAX: It's kind of like a religious thing.
STEVE: It bothers me -
MAX: If everybody had similar beliefs, --
STEVE: Max; but it never use, --
MAX: -- there wouldn't be any use in the
system -- ~
STEVE: Max --
MAX: -- but we have different beliefs.
STEVE: You're --
MAX; -- and the system is there to settle --
STEVE: Your agency never use to exist.
MAX: - the disputes.
STEVE: And this country got along fantastic,
and now there's so many like you, there's, of course,
the ATF, there's, there's another department off the
IR-- there's just so many policemen in this state, I
mean, it's going to be, this use to be a many states
working together, now it's more federal, too much power
at the top. It's not like it use to be. It was never
meant to be this way by the constitution. I mean, you
-- definitely there's things going on that should not
really be happening.
MAX: Well, what you're saying is all these
agencies traditionally have a great reputation, and you
believed in them as long as they were not concerned
3~_
--I4_¢-._20
with your activities.
STEVE: No, no, no. __ _
MAX: In essence, you're saying, both drug
dealers --
STEVE= As long as they're --
MAX: indiscernible!
STEVE: -- they're indirect, like, for
instance, you have the power, to think your agency can
tell the press what to do and, I never knew that was
possible in this country until right now.
MAX: All you --
STEVE: I guess I haven't been watching very
carefully.
MAX; .Al1 you have to do to change that is
come out. -
STEVE; And the way you guys can take control
and tell them where to be, when to be and what to
happen and what not to happened?
MAX: Steve.
STEVE: I mean, it's totally amazing.
MAX: Steve, they'll be just as many
microphones and just as many cameras --
STEVE: I'm talking about, no, no --
MAX: waiting on you.
STEVE: -- I'm talking about the power you
guys wield right now. I'm, I mean, hear the press,
Q-_ ._-<21
they can't do this, they can't do that. You warned
them that if they even say something over the airwaves
and -- I'm just wondering what you might have done to
this man who has such a vigilance and an eye out for
freedom, and he's concerned about the rights of the
constitution of any individual of being violated. I'm
concerned about those kinds of things and I mean that
for yourself included. For everybody in this country.
And there, I mean, I see it happening.
MAX: Steve.
STEVE: It's been happening for 10, 20, 30
years already. No question about it. So whether, you
know, when this is all said and done -- I mean, it
still keeps continues to go downhill, and what happens
with an organization like your own? It continues to do
the same kind of a thing, I mean --
The ATF, that's one organization I'm definitely am
concerned about after all this. I'm definitely
concerned. H_
MAX: Understood, understood. And I don't
think you're the only one asking questions.
STEVE: What are they existing for in the
first place? why doesn't the FBI, I mean, what are
they really needed for? The FBI has always taken care
of those kind of things as far as I was concerned.
MAX: Well, well, well. Like I said,
.?_22
therell be as many microphones, as many cameras, as
many reporters --
STEVE: Oh, boy, I hate to --
MAX: -- waiting out there for you --
STEVE: -- hear you parrot the same thing
over and
it's got --
MAX:
STEVE
doesn't it?
MAX:
They don't want
safe in there.
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
the issue.
MAX:
STEVE:
MAX:
issue.
STEVEover again, Max. But I guess that's the ways
-- as there is for us.
That's the way it's got to be,
You've got to come out to talk to them.
to come in there, it's not, it's not
That's been proven, hasn't it?
You are, --
That's an unsafe area.
That's not even, that's not even --
Whatever reason, it's an unsafe area.
- the issue. You know that's not
No, it's not. People, the same thing
I mean, we'll be, --
-- all those involved, that's the
I mean, I already know, when we're
out, it's all going to be swept under and on the
an-:4
023
atrocities go, goes on and that which -- There's no,
there's no question in my mind, there's very powerful,
sharp men, devious men that aren't normal -- that, that
just loves families and have a God and have a church
and want to do the best for their fellow men and live
on this world. There are men -- that programs, they
want to see enacted upon everybody, that don't, that
aren't patriotic to any one given country. I mean, I'm
a person that's always loved history, and when I was
young and looked on this Viet Nam war, for instance,
going on for ten years, I couldn't, it didn't make
sense to me that a country so powerful as the United
States, with the technology they had, able to force
Japan in the Second World War to quickly want to end
it, why we kept on sending manpower against manpower
against countries that had just millions and millions
-- nothing made sense. And that we wouldn't bomb past
a certain boundary line but they would, they could do
all the atrocities. _M
I mean, one can't help but to start ask-- what is
going on, who's in control? No matter who you vote
for, it seems like it progressively gets worse.
Then you come to find out there's a group called
the Council and Foreign Relations, and all these
presidential candidates have come from that group for a
number of years. Are you aware of that, Max?
Q-24
MAX: I'm not as familiar with that part of
history as you seem to be.
STEVE: You really aren't, huh?
MAX: NO.
STEVE: From about
Council on Foreign Relation,
like - I'm told, 16 or 1800
industrialists; politicians,1920 and the '20's, the
which it has, something
members of the greatest
meaning congressmen;
international bankers -- These are the men that get
together and draw up what needs to be done in this
world, and they're not so concerned about America. If
you're not, if you don't know about it, I'd do a lot of
research -- I'd talk to an admiral of the United States
MAX: I'm concerned, I'm concerned about
today. My concern_e
STEVE: No, I'm concerned about you --
MAX: - is right here and now, and the
people in there. _
STEVE: -- and this country and all you
people. I mean, what has got to be done with this
situation will be done. And I'm working with you to
get it resolved now and we're still, we're heading in
that direction just like in --
MAX: No, you, you're not working with me
right now, Steve, you've got your --
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STEVE: No, no, no. No, I am.
MAX: -- spurs up for some reason, --
STEVE: I am, in fact, -- '
' MAX:, -- and you're riding me around the room
with history. u
STEVE: -- contrary, on the contrary --
MAX: It's not the thing that needs to be
done right now.
STEVE: If you'd been listening to
conversations I had with John, that's not so. All day
long we have been working on it and as you and I were
last night.
MAX: Well, let's get back to the way we were
last night, okay? A
STEVE: I'm listening.
MAX: Okay. The main issue now, is the
safety of all those concerned and what it's going to
take to, to resolve this without anyone getting hurt.
You and John talked about a little bit of what would
happen when you came out and I had asked you if one of
our -- signing off, I signed with you, --
STEVE: Um-hum.
MAX: -- to do some research to look into the
law books that Wayne might have had there, to talk with
Wayne about it and find out what the legal process
mandates in this situation when you come out. Did you
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do that?
STEVE: No, I never had the time today,_
actually. I wanted to, but I was on the phone so
frequently with John throughout this day, and along
with that, talking to people, trying to get them ready
to get on tape and then I had problems with that. It
was one of those days where it just did not go my way.
MAX: I felt it was an important - I hoped
you would feel it was an important part of the, the
solution and would have made some, some efforts to do
that. Maybe you could give Wayne the, the assignment
of, --
STEVE: Oh, yeah, I'll talk to him --
MAX: f-- of finding that section of the code
STEVE: -- definitely.
MAX: -- that deals with --
STEVE: Most definitely.
MAX: -- the federal process. Okay. That
might be --
STEVE: That would not be a problem at all.
MAX: I think that would be something to give
Wayne to --
STEVE: I think you're right.
MAX: -- to feel he's being used
appropriately, and he could probably do a good job of,
ff.Q-_:4O C
2'7
of coming out of there with the section of the --
STEVE: I think you're right. By nature, he
is a researcher. -
. MAX: Okay. That's great. And to share
those, if you would, after you've had a chance to, to
analyze them and understand them, and I know that you
can with the, the way your mind works. Look them over
and then either synopsize or present them to David in
such a way that it might relieve any concerns he might
have.
You can be able to explain to him, then, what's
going to happen.
STEVE: All right.
MAX:. And how -- what the steps are going to
be. vOkay? -
STEVE: We'll do that.
MAX: And that would be a very constructive,
I think, thing to do.
STEVE: They're handing me a plate of food
right now.
MAX: Yeah, I hear it.
STEVE: How about if I give you a call back?
MAX: Well, how about the tape? We, we got
the issue here hanging with the tape. You were going
to send us something out?
STEVE: I hardly have any, I've got a 150
92.
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.}'..s--minute tape~and
MAX:
STEVE: -- I thought I was going to"Oh, it is? M _
thing up and I hardly have nothing even on it.
MAX:Oh, you don't have to fill it up.1
send out what you have. I don't --
STEVE: Let me call you right back,
going to --
MAX:okay, I
You know, if we get one that long, do
you realize it'll take, how long it'll take to
transcribe it and everything before we can.see --
STEVE: Okay, but I don't have anything but
150 tapes left here.
MAX:, We'll send you out whatever you want.
Send, use half of it, send it out. If you run out of
tape, we'll send you some.
STEVE: I'm going to eat and I'll call you
right back when
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVE
MAX:
STEVEI'm finished.
Work on the tape, please.
Okay;
All right. Enjoy your meal.
Okay, I'll talk to you in a bit.
Bye. .
Good-bye.
iiiii
SHERRI: Hello.28
fill this
Just
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JOHN: Hi, who's this?
SHERRI: This is Sherri.
JOHN: Sherri, this is John.
' SHERRI: I know.
JOHN: Happy Birthday.
SHERRI: Oh, you know too, huh?
JOHN: Yeah.
SHERRI: Thank you. Here's Steve, just a
minute.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Hello.
JOHN: Hey, guy, how are you?
STEVE: Hello, is this John?
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: No, kidding?
_ JOHN: You know, I'm the bearer of,
hopefully, good tidings and some not so exciting
tidings. I understand that the, the floodlights, the
spotlights, whatever you want to call them, just went
on on the, --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- on the outside of the building, the
south side of the building.
STEVE: Let me tell you about it now, cause
I was just told, --
JOHN: Yeah, go ahead.
C
92
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92an-_ _n 4;,__STEVE: I was just told the
Since we moved in here they had these30
same thing.
floodlights out
there that when a dog or anything runs - and that's
what tripped it off, was a dog -- you know that we've
-- no one's gone out, and it's over by the gymnasium --
JOHN: Huhhuh.
STEVE: -- so no one, since this all came
about, has even been over in that area, nor can they
get to the switch to even turn the thing off, unless,
of course, we work that out with yourselves, but, since
this all took place, --
JOHN: well, you don't have
do it, do you?
STEVE: Oh, yes, of course,
switch for that is in the gym.
JOHN: Yeah, but I mean you
physically go outside the building to
right?to go outside to
because the
don't have to
do it, though,
STEVE: No, you do have to physically go
outside of this building and into that one to do it.
There's not a way to get to that building other than
going outside.
JOHN: I mean, outside, outside.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: You can stay inside a building, right?
STEVE: Well, no, you have to go outside to
'3"31
go into that-building of which the switch is inside
that building. vYou understand what I'm saying?
JOHN: Well, you just walk from one building
to another, right?
STEVE: Yeah, but you go outside to do it.
JOHN: Okay. what's the problem?
STEVE: Well, that -- I don't know. Well,
before, you know, everybody gets excited if lights come
on or --
JOHN: Oh, no, you know --
STEVE: -- someone walks around --
JOHN: -- you know how it happened the other
night, these people start jumping through their shorts,
you know, the lights are on, the lights are on. It's
a, it's an offensive thing and, and --
STEVE: But what's strange --
JOHN: We can resolve it real easy, right?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: You tell me what you have to do to
turn them off and I'll explain to them what you have to
do to turn them off.
STEVE: John, but what's, what's strange
about it is, you know, they've been off and on for ever
since the Sunday in the first place. How, but I was
asking --
JOHN: What can I tell you, huh?
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STEVE: That's what I'm saying -- but last
night Max called me so excited and I says, well, what's
wrong? '
' JOHN: Hey, we also mentioned to you that
nothing positive has happened in about four days, four
and a half days and these people --
STEVE: I think it has.
JOHN: -- are getting concerned. I think it
has, Max thinks it has --
STEVE: After talking with John, talking with
yourself and Max, --
JOHN: Hey, we think it has, but you
understand that we are the communicators, right?
STEVE: Umhum. ~
JOHN: And we have people to answer to and
they look at the issue of,-hey --
STEVE: Well, what I wanted to --
JOHN: - since Heather came out four days
positive has_happened? ago, what
STEVE: Well, you know --
JOHN: So when something happens, like the
lights going on, they want the lights to go off, and if
it's --
STEVE: I believe they're off, aren't they?
JOHN: -- if it's some-- Are they off now,
you think?
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STEVE: Probably, because they only come on
when those dogs are running around there. ' '
JOHN: What can I tell you about the dogs?
We don't have a lot of control over the dogs, do we?
STEVE: Let's find somebody here to go run
out and turn them off then, I guess.
JOHN: Hey.
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN: We don't want somebody just wandering
around outside now.
STEVE:- Well, you want them turned --
JOHN: If you just go from one building to
another building. Just tell me what they're gonna do
so I can tell somebody not to be concerned.
STEVE: Well, let me see. Just a minute.
JOHN: Sure.
[gap] ~
STEVE: Okay. I was just talking to someone
that can go out there and take care of that.
JOHN: Okay, will they --
STEVE: And --
JOHN: They have to walk out of the building,
that you're in --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- across a little court yard area or
something? *
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STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And then into the gym? ~
STEVE: And he's wondering, too, the
chickens, apparently, have gone on. The same person --
JOHN: Steve, it sounds like you lost control
of the chickens? 3
STEVE: No, I know, it is a bit humorous.
But he says, can I take care of the chickens, they can
watch me at the same time, I'll go over to the gym, do
the switch there, and then go over by the chickens, get
that food and, and throw it in there with them and, --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- take care of them.
JOHN: Okay. Let me check on that --
STEVE: You want to call me right back?
JOHN: Yeah, you bet, because I'd like to let
somebody know what we're doing --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- and not to have concern, and if,
and if you want to handle the other matter, that's fine
too.
STEVE: Okay, I'm still halfway through my
meal here, so --
JOHN: Chow down, chow down.
STEVE: Okay. Talk to you in a bit.
JOHN: We'll call you back in just a few
I
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E35
minutes.
iiiii
JOHN: Hello.
STEVE: John?
JOHN: You bet. f
STEVE: Yeah, it is John. Okay, is he ready
to go out there?
JOHN: Not quite, not quite.
STEVE: Okay. Well just give me a buzz then,
I'm still waiting.
JOHN: Okay. Let me, let me ask you
something.
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN: You still eating or are you finished
eating? '
STEVE: -I'm still eating.
JOHN: Okay. It should be just a matter of
minutes, -- I
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: -- so I'll give you a call right back
as soon as they're ready, huh?
STEVE: Okay, sounds good.
JOHN: Okay?
STEVE: Sure, bye.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
* 1' Q 1' *
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STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Hey, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: All set.
STEVE: Okay. .
JOHN: Can you, can you tell me what they're
gonna do, now? What the fellow's going to do?
STEVE: Okay, he's going to go out, he's
going to go out the back door, and then --
JOHN: Is that near the tall building or
what?
STEVE: Let's see, no, the back door is
actually, where would it be? It's like, is that east?
That's east or northeast. It's where the, the building
is kind of long, it's like parallel to the swimming
pool. _ _
JOHN: Okay, okay.
STEVE: So he's going to go out that door,
he's going to walk over to the gym and in the gym,
there's a switch on the wall inside there.
JOHN: Okay, okay.
STEVE: And he's going to come back across --
JOHN: To the chicken coup?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: And feed the chickens?
STEVE: Right.
,-
92' 3"Q
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Q-_.£¢- JOHN:37
Okay. Can you tell me whether the, the
fellow that's going out going to have a t-shirt on or a
hat?
I STEVE: He's got a, he's got a jacket that's
black with, like, turquoise,.what would you say, I
stripes are they? He's, he's a black guy, also.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
then?
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVEHe's a black male?
Yeah.
with a black jacket, turquoise --
And he's got, he's got glasses on.
Okay.
Okay?
Okay. So, he's, he's going out now,
Right.
Okay, it's fine.
Okay, and I'll talk to you soon.
Now he's not carrying anything, huh?
Nothing. He's got nothing in his
hands carrying anything.
JOHN:Fine. Hey, that's super.
STEVE: Okay, and I'll call you as soon as I
finish here which will probably be about fifteen,
twenty minutes.
JOHN:Hang on. Oh, can you ask him to carry
a flashlight with him?
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STEVE: to the background! Would you carry
a flashlight with you? _
JOHN: And leave it on? "
. STEVE: to the background! You have a
flashlight then? v
He didn't like the idea of carrying a flashlight,
I guess.
JOHN: Well, it's going to be for his safety
and for ours, you know, I mean, we don't --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: It's going to make it a lot easier --
STEVE: As long as it's for his safety,
that's fine.
JOHN: That's the issue. That's the issue.
STEVE: Okay. '
JOHN: Qoes he, he got a flashlight?
STEVE:
JOHN: QOkay, talk to you --
We're in business?
STEVE: Yeah, where in business. Talk to you
in a few minutes.
JOHN: Okay. Finish your food.
STEVE: Okay. ~
JOHN: All right, bye-bye.
iiiii
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Hey, Steve.
u
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STEVE:- Hey, John, what's happening?
JOHN: Just want to make sure that your man's
in, finished --?
STEVE: That guy - I just went down there to
find out -- I told him, let me know as soon as it's all
through. Here, come to find out, the guy goes out,
does just the gym, comes back in there, looking around
for a better flashlight or something, no one tells me,
so I just went down and says, why are you so slow, what
are you doing? I, I don't know.
~' JOHN:, Hey,Ithe lights are out in the gym
though, right?
STEVE: Yeah, he, he got that aspect done, I
mean, but I -- wouldn't you know, I picked the slowest
guy that there is in the whole --
JOHN: Hey, they never said it'd be easy, did
they?
STEVE: Well, I guess not.
JOHN: Now, the way those lights are set up
now, they're not going to back on, are they?
STEVE: They shouldn't because when you flip
the switch down, apparently, --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- that should take care of it.
JOHN: Okay, okay.
STEVE: But after all this time, apparently,
fr
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no one had done that.
JOHN: Hey, maybe we can feed the chickens a
little later, huh?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Hey, that's a concern huh?
STEVE: Anyway. So, what's happening now?
JOHN: Listen. I wanted to cover a couple of
issues with you.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: I know that you and John, the other
John, --
STEVE: Yeah. What is John's last name?
Unless he doesn't, it doesn't matter, but --
JOHN: Number 2.
STEVE: Okay, John Number 2. Hey, now, that
doesn't sound too good.
JOHN: It does to me.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Huh? "I think it sounds pretty good to
me.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Or Number 2, John. Whichever way you
want to put it. E
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: In fact, he'll be talking to you in
the morning anyhow, I'm sure.
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judge will explain to those who are being charged with
something, what they are being charged with,_what their
rights are. You know, there are constitutional rights;
to a lawyer, -- every right they have because federal
judges take their time explaining these things because
they never want any question raised that they haven't
been clear in explaining these things and that people
totally understand their rights. And there may be some
people in there that, like you say, the fellow with the
flashlight that may not be too quick, huh?
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: Some people don't understand them as
quickly as others, so, --
STEVE: Well, this is true. -
JOHN: Federal judges want to make it as
clear as possible If, for say, there is somebody that
did not speak English in there, and I think most all
do, don't they?
STEVE: Right. Everybody does.
JOHN: You know, if, if there was somebody
that didn't speak English, they would certainly have a,
an interpreter present. I mean, we don't play games in
the federal system.
After that would happen, okay, or as part of the
initial appearance, the U.S. District judge or U.S.
Magistrate judge, as they're, they're addressed, will
I
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set an initial appearance date --
srsvs} Okay.
JOHN: -- and set bond. Now, the, the
crucial thing is that everybody that would appear that
judge will be met by someone from the U.S. probation
office, which is really the arm of the judicial branch
that sits down and obtains background information from
people. And it's crucial because the information they
get from the individuals is relayed to the judge as of
whether they're penniless, whether they're destitute,
you know --
-' STEVE: Huh-huh.
JOHN: They can't afford a lawyer, one, one
will be provided by the court, and they go through the
whole background of the individual so probation can
inform the judge at the initial appearance, Your Honor,
you know, this person says they've never had a traffic
ticket in their life, you know.
STEVE: Hum-hum.
JOHN: They have no prior problems, and the
judge then assesses this, looks at it and says, well,
I'm going to set bond at whatever. So, he's looking at
a person's background, their life, their education,
their, you know, -- '
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- the whole thing. And they take
C O
44
their time doing this. Believe me, the federal judges
don't jump into these things blindly, and particular
-- you know, an incident like this that's happened --
notoriety, the publicity that this has had, they can't,
they can't afford to do anything in a slipshod manner.
So, one thing I should tell you, you know, and you
can pass it on is that we were informed, not long ago,
that David's mother has hired a lawyer in Houston. Now
I wish I could give you the name of the lawyer.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: He's a, he's a pretty well known
lawyer --
STEVE: Oh, he is.
JOHN: You know, and I don't mean just well
known, well respected, competent lawyer.
STEVE; Okay.
JOHN: I'm sure that's concern to other
people in there that they're going to either have to do
the same thing where they're going to have to have
lawyers appointed to them, and I'm sure the vast
majority of, of the folks in there don't have a lot of
money, you know, to dole out for something like that,
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: But it, but it's a concern, you know.
You know, if you had a lawyer that you were interested
F
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in being contacted, I'm sure we could make arrangements
to do that. And I'm being candid with you, you know,
if -- -
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - you have one, or, in discussions
with Wayne. Maybe Wayne knows one around here that he
could offer you some good advice.
' STEVE: Maybe I won't even need one, huh?
JOHN: That's even better advice, isn't it?
STEVE: Yeah, --
JOHN: I mean, I, it really is.
STEVE:V Yeah.
JOHN: It really is. But I don't want to, to
get out on a pipedream that we're not going to appear
before the judge. -
STEVE; Um-hum.
JOHN: I, I think we got to be pretty sincere
about this that you will probably appear, the judge and
David will and many will and many won't. You know, I'm
pretty, pretty realistic about that too. Some of the
people that I, I viewed on the tapes that you sent out?
STEVE: Umhum. .
JOHN: And I'm not talking just about the,
you know, the children. g
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: The children don't enter into this
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really, but you've got an awful lot of, lot of women
and other people in there that, they have nothing to
fear. V
' STEVE: Right.
JOHN: Well, not from the judicial system.
What they do, they probably fear they're losing some
guidance, right?
STEVE: Probably.
JOHN: A very valid fear.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: That today they have David, today they
have you and if this ends tonight, if this ends
tomorrow, if this ends on Sunday and all of a sudden,
David's taken away from them, you're taken away from
them, -- 1
STEVE: Well, --'
JOHN: their leadership, their guidance is
taken away from them, --
STEVE: I would like to say that's true about
myself, but it, actually, it is not. I mean, I'm just
like they are, I'm a student --
JOHN: Well, yeah, but still, you're a
mature, educated person, and if David's not feeling
good, if David's down on his luck, they have to look at
someone for guidance, right? I don't mean religious,
spiritual, hey, this is what I'm telling you must be
f
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done, this is what has, --
STEVE: N0, --
JOHN: The day to day, --
y STEVE: I don't know that they would look to
me, in fact, I really -- _ 1
JOHN: Well, maybe they'll look at a group of
you.
STEVE: Possibly.
JOHN: You know, but they're gonna look for
someone because, you know, I didn't meet the two
elderly, --
End of tape 107!
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2%U.S- DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #108
3/10/93
9:34 P.M. - 11:04 P.M.
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is2
Tape 108!
STEVE: I gave another address of a place we
had lived in California.
' JOHN: What's that?
STEVE: Wel1,_we had lived actually -- We had
a couple of residences where we had resided while in
California, and I gave -- I mean, I knew they
weren't -- David says look, he wants to, to cooperate
all the way and --
JOHN: I believe him,
STEVE: Yeah. And, in fact -- So that's --
He heard about in the news about the white house, but
he wanted -- He says we were at the rock house, or what
we call the rock house, which is -- '
The white house in California?
~Yeah. VJOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN: Oh, okay.
STEVE: Exactly. And then there was another
place we were at on 178 East Arrow Highway. I believe
John, he took that information down.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: And I don't know what was all left
there, but there were things left there. A lot of
things, actually, in the garage.
JOHN: Hang on, hang on, hang on. I can't
write as fast as you can --
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STEVE:- I see. Okay.
JOHN: I'm trying, I'm trying. One#seven-
eight - H
1 STEVE: East Arrow Highway in Pomona.
JOHN: Like a arrow, bow and arrow?
STEVE: Just like -- Exactly.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: And he just wanted to make sure that
they were aware of that, because we - The thing - A
lot of things were left there.
JOHN: _Okay, now, that's still his residence?
STEVE: That actually is Don Bund's and
Jeanine Bund's. And in the process, we told them to go
ahead and move in there, which they did back some
months ago. And -- But a lot of things were left
there, so basically in the cellar -- There's a cellar.
I believe there's a furnace downstairs.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: There were things, and things were
left in closets, in certain spaces in there.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Also, a lot of things were left in
the garage, both, both --
JOHN: Personal things of David?
STEVE: Yes. I believe David and other
individuals that have been connected with him.
92,
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2SJOHN:.
STEVE:Okay.
So, you know, if they want to go
through and check that out, I mean --
' JOHN =Well, I think was a place where they
executed a search warrant. '
STEVE:
JOHN:
Highway.
STEVE:
were aware of it.
anything about it
JOHN:
STEVE:
other place --
JOHN:
aware of it now,
STEVE:
to come up later
JOHN:
STEVE:
in the open and -
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
lecture material,The White House was or --
I mean this place, 178 East Arrow
Oh, wait. I don't even think they
I don't think they even knew
Okay.
And we stayed there longer than any
So what you're telling me is we're
huh?
Well, yeah. Well, he didn't want it
and, you know --
Sure.~~
-- and now is the time to get it all
You bet.
So --
Well, he has personal items, such as
you know, books, papers, things like
this. Is that what you're talking about?
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STEVE: Well, a lot of things. You know, I'm
sure videotapes were left behind. -
JOHN: Okay.
' STEVE: Actually, other items, you know,
clothing maybe, like you said, papers. I can't j
remember what's all there, but he definitely wanted to
let you know so, you know, it's not something hidden or
secret and --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: And I was talking to him again today
and he was reminding me how this whole thing He said
they wanted to know why did we get into this gun
business. Well, it actually started about a year-and-
a-half ago.
JOHN: Iim sorry, why did, why did you what?
STEVE: 'Why did he get started -- getting
into like even buying guns in the first place.
JOHN: Oh, okay.
STEVE: And he reviewed that with me and I, I
do recall, because I was visiting out here and I was
kind of surprised.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: He showed me what he had bought and I
didn't know -- I says well, what's that? You know, I
was - came up from California. He says well, he says
we tried to invest in this and that, we went through
¢- _ .
06
all that and some of the things worked, you know, for
making money to help support people here that needed
food or this or that. And, and he said he had been
told by a friend about this guy by the name of Henry.
JOHN: Uh-huh. - I»
STEVE: And he says one day he happened to --
The girl I guess that was related to him mentioned it
again to him and he was shown that he had bought a gun
for I think it was 2 or $300, turned right around and
sold it for like about 7. So he says well, what --
that's quite an awesome investment and a return.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: So then the guy came out to the
property, this Henry, and about a week later I happened
to come out and he introduced the guy to me, and he
brought a few things that he owned and had and so
forth.. I don't remember what they were. I remember
there were, there were --
JOHN: So, so what you're trying to tell me
is he's buying all these guns for investment purposes?
STEVE: Yeah. So that's how it started, in
fact. Right from the beginning, that's how it started.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And this was like --
JOHN: How, how long ago was that?
STEVE: -- '91. That would have been --
.-
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JOHN: -Ninety-one?
STEVE: The end of June. I would say --
JOHN: How many of them do you think he sold?
STEVE: Oh, quite a few, quite a few.
JOHN: And he probably would have filled out
all the paper work on some of them?
STEVE: Oh, no -- There's so much
wouldn't believe how many. He called it ---- You
I guess
it's called yellow sheets or something.
JOHN:
STEVE: .Yeah, I think that's what
anyway, I
out a lot
JOHN:Yeah, I'm sure that's what they are.
it is. But
-- from what he tells me, he really filled
on everything and anything and --
So, so he has really, he has really
bought a bunch of weapons and sold a bunch.
STEVE
2 JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
place.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:So that's how it started.
Hang on, just a minute.
Sure.
The lights are on outside again, same
You're kidding?
No, no.
They came --
Wait a minute.
Okay.
Wait a minute, wait a minute. On the
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same side. I think the rocket scientists that you sent
out there hit the wrong switch or something. D '
STEVE: Oh, no. H
JOHN: But maybe we can, maybe we can
accomplish two tasks. 1
STEVE: Okay.
a
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2"5JOHN:9
I'm telling you why I want it done
right this time. I'm getting pressure from somebody to
do something else, and I don't want to do that.
' STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
do that.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
little brighter
STEVE
JOHN:
do it right.
STEVE
they want to do
JOHN:
want to talk --
STEVE
rest of it, so,
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:Okay.
You know what I'm talking about, huh?
I have no idea.
Turn the power out. I don't want to
Well, if they, you know --
I don't want to do it, though, okay?
Okay.
I just want you to, to get one a
Listen - '
-- give him a flashlight and have him
If they, you know, but, you know, if
that, that's fine, too.
I donft want, I don't want that. I
There will be no communication or the
you know --
Hey, we don't need that, huh?
All right.
Let's do it right. Can you -- Would
you ring me up --
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STEVE: At times I feel like a yo-yo on the
end of a string here. ' '
JOHN: That makes two of us, doesn't it?
STEVE = Okay.
JOHN: would you tell me when you've found
somebody who's going to go out and do it? Would you
ring me up?
STEVE: Can I, can I say something to you?
I'm quite a distance from so many people.
JOHN: That's all right, take --
STEVE: _It takes a few minutes here just to
go find someone.
JOHN: Do what you've got to do.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: But you call me back.
STEVE: I'll call you back.
JOHN: And find a bright one.
STEVE: I will do it. Just about as bright
as that flashlight they should be holding. .
JOHN: Who's, who's got the wheels turning,
okay? '
STEVE: Okay. We'll talk to you in a bit.
JOHN: All right.
STEVE: Bye.
JOHN: Bye.
**'l'i'*
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Telephone rings twice.!
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN: Hey, Steve.
STEVE: Hey, John. Yeah, it's all taken care
of. - I '
JOHN: You, you found --
STEVE: You know what? It was another -- In
fact, there were two lights. They thought it was one
and it ended up being a light on the -- I guess
apparently must be the east side of the building. And
what happened was some days ago, apparently when they
were trying to fix one thing, somebody hit the switch.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
They didn't even know it was on, STEVE:
cause you can't §
JOHN: It's probably just a movement sensor
out there that --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - trips the thing.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: So -- And I know they're out and I
just didn't know if you sent somebody else out to do
it. '
STEVE: Yeah, yeah, I did. In fact, I went
and found somebody, says recheck it, make sure where
the switches are, the location. He said it was not in
i
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isThey don't have
JOHN: Hey, it's a crucial
right?
' STEVE: John, you've got a
JOHN:
STEVE: Well, that's true.
JOHN: You do. Because if
really tear you apart. Do you think
a whiner there? I thought you had a
think you pretty well understand the13
to squawk now for a while. A
thing, though,
sense of humor.
You've_got to sometimes, don't you?
you don't, it'll
- Oh-oh, you got
whiner. Do you
system or, or you
have any questions about what will in fact --
- STEVE: The procedure you're speaking about?
JOHN: You bet, you bet.
STEVE: No. So far, what you were showing
and explaining seemed to -- it makes a lot of sense. I
mean, I have not, of course, ever had to go through
that, so --
JOHN: I know.
STEVE: -- Ilve not really taken note in the
past of others, whatever the procedure might be. So --
JOHN: I know. But as long as you
understand, and I guess the most important thing you
understand or anybody understands in there is how
serious the system is, how serious we are, and we
meaning the government is about working this out to the
letter. That --
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srsvs: Right.
JOHN: And the crucial thing is your right to
counsel.
i STEVE: Could you hang on one second?
JOHN: You bet. 1 '
STEVE: Thanks. [gap] Unidentified voices
in background not discernible. Sounds like radio or
TV.!
JOHN: Hey, Steve. Whistling.! See if he
can call back when the news is over talking to someone
else!. [gap] Steve. [gap] Whistling.! Hit the
buzzer talking to someone else!. Not on this phone.
Whistling.! Going, going -- Steven. Steven.
i**'k'l'
JOHN: Hello?
srsvsz Hello, Jenn?
JOHN: You forgot about me, didn't you?
STEVE: Well, what happened is someone was
talking to me there for a minute and apparently by the
time I got back -- I did --
JOHN: CNN must have been on.
" STEVE: CNN. No, someone was asking me a
couple questions and I finally remembered picking up
the phone. And, anyway, here we are.
JOHN: What's up.
STEVE: Okay, let's see, what were we talking
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about here?
JOHN: Well, I was trying to explain --
STEVE: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: - you know --
STEVE: Yeah,-the procedure and so forth.
JOHN: Yeah, and, and I know I, I mentioned
that you people would get medical help, but --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- I mean, it's more than medical
help. They will be hospitalized until the medical
people feel that.itswsafe for them to be taken out of
a, a hospital.
STEVE: And --
JOHN: I'm not just talking about some medic
looking at somebody.
STEVE: Right, right.
- JOHN: I mean, the -- You say that it's new
to you the federal judicial system, but it's, it's so
much different than the'state system.
STEVE: Uh-huh. '
JOHN: And I can tell you somebody else that,
that I've met many times since I've been here and he's,
he's the kind of guy that reminds you of, of your
grandfather, and that's the sheriff.
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: He, he's quite a guy.
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STEVE:' Are you talking about Harwell or --
JOHN: Yeah. Quite a guy. And he's very
concerned.
' STEVE: Good.
JOHN: And, and he's got a lot of influence
around here because he is the sheriff, and he's been
the sheriff here for years.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And I've spoken to him, as has Henry
and Max and all of us have met with him, and he's just
a pretty warm guyl And he's expressed his concerns and
you can, you can believe that he's going to be present
when you all come out of there.
STEVE: John, can I give you a call back one
more time? A couple people are driving me nuts here.
Someone lost something and they want me to help them
find out who took it --
JOHN: Go ahead.
STEVE: -- or where --
JOHN: Go ahead.
STEVE: Are you going to
JOHN: Yeah. Let me ask
STEVE: I'm going to hit
quick, too, while I have a chance.
JOHN: Okay. Let me ask
else.be there for a --
the facilities real
you to do something
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STEVE: Okay, go ahead.
JOHN: Can you see if you can pick up that
tape? Because we'd like to get it out this evening.
' STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Whether it's completed or not.
STEVE: What, what happened, if we wouldn't
have gotten into a discussion, I was actually heading
down there.
JOHN: That's all right. Whether it's
completed or not, we can get a few people on it.
_. STEVE: .I didn't even get to do anybody
today.
JOHN: Really? _
STEVE: Yeah. In fact, there was about three
people that wanted he to sit down with them.
JOHN: That's all right, that's all right.
t STEVE: When I, when I could do it, they said
they had to go do something with the food or get the
food going. And then when they wanted -- I mean, it's
just been one of those lousy days today.
JOHN: Listen, go do what you've got to do.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: And call me back in 15 minutes.
STEVE: I'll be back in 15 minutes.
JOHN: Is 15 okay?
STEVE: That's, that's fine.
I
§
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92,7/-.
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25JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:18
Okay.
Don't go away. "
No, I'm going to go do something, too
Okay, we'll talk to you in 15.
Fine. -
Okay, bye.
Thank you.
*****
Telephone rings twice.!
SHERRY
JOHN:_
SHERRY
JOHN:
SI-IERRHY
JOHN:
SHERRY
- JOHN:
you're getting a
SHERRY:Hello?
.Hey.H Who's this?
Hi, this is Sherry.
How are you, Sherry?
Just fine.
Happy birthday again.
Yeah. Quit reminding me.
Why? Do you feel, do you feel like
little older?
Well! let's just say I kind of like
to forget those days.
JOHN: Thirty-nine and holding?
SHERRY: That's right.
JOHN: Hey, I hear that.
SHERRY: Yeah.
JOHN:
it for years.I hear that. Jack Benny got away with
7an-19
SHERRY: Yeah, he sure did.
JOHN: Is Steve around?
SHERRY: Yeah, just a minute.
JOHN: Thanks. [gap]
SHERRY: John?
JOHN: Yeah, go ahead.
SHERRY: Listen, he's in the bathroom. Can
he call you back?
JOHN: I know he said that he had to do a
couple of things and I told him that I'd be back with
him in 15 minutes and just didn't want him to think
that I was putting him off or anything. Wanted to be
punctual.
SHERRY: Yeah. Okay, well --
JOHN: You tell him to call me back.
SHERRY: _Okay. -
JOHN: That'll be fine.
SHERRY: All righty. Bye-bye.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
ii-***
JOHN: Hello?
STEVE: John?
JOHN: You feel better?
STEVE: Much.
JOHN: I bet.
STEVE: Much.
Q.-_> <
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JOHN: -I bet. That's good.
STEVE: Yeah. Okay, we were talking. "I
wanted to go -- I was going to spend just a minute --
' JOHN: Go ahead.
STEVE: -- talking to Wayne, but I'll get
back to him after this conversation here about the
legalities and --
JOHN: Yeah. I know there's a big fear of
the unknown --
STEVE: Yeah.
J JOHN:_ -- and that's understandable and, and,
you know, even though I can't put myself in your shoes,
and I certainly wouldn't tell you that I'm trying to
put myself in your shoes -- 1
STEVE: Eight.
JOHN: -- there is a fear or concern by
everyone of the unknown. What in the hell is going to
happen to us?
STEVE: Righti
JOHN: And, you know, you've expressed
concern and, of course, David did before and, and we
all know it's not a matter of if somebody's coming out
of there, it's just a matter of when.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: And, of course, David being
incommunicado from us, maybe he's got his own thing to
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do. I don't know. But it may come to the point where
you make up your mind what you're going to do and --
STEVE: Oh, for sure.
JOHN: -- and that's going to be it.
STEVE: Yeah. g
JOHN: You know? And just do what your, what
your mind and what your soul tells you to do and what's
best. And it may be that people would rather come out
of there at night, under darkness, so they don't have a
lot of publicity and notoriety, or they may want to
come out tomorrow morning in the daylight and have the
publicity and notoriety. You know, that's, that's
going to be your prerogative.
STEVE: I've been actually talking to a few
individuals that are giving it a lot of thought now.
JOHN: Yeah. 4
. STEVE:. And, you know, about -- wondering
about the waiting and the rest, and, and --
_ JOHN: It's a difficult decision.
STEVE: It is, it is.
JOHN: And there's a lot of weight on your
shoulders and on their shoulders every day about
thinking about it, because, I mean, you can talk about
the weather, there's a cold front coming in and it's
going to be 20 degrees tomorrow night and all that. So
what? The weather's not the important issue here.
l
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STEVE:- Really.
JOHN: It's the safety and welfare of all of
you, and, and that's the bottom line, and that the
legal system works.
STEVE: Two of the girls, just about a half
hour ago, when I -- I think it was just a little after
10, after I broke with you for a moment there --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- came up to me and said why don't
you share with John for us that it gave us a breath of
fresh air to be able to know that there's someone who
cares on the outside. They were talking about the
response of this guy from the radio station.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: And they said contrary to what Bob
Ricks says, if anything, that has helped them regain a
little bit of strength and wanting to pursue, you know,
getting this done and coming out there and so forth.
JOHN: Yeah ~
STEVE: So what his comments were were not
something they --
JOHN:_ Do you know what he said?
STEVE: Bob Ricks?
JOHN: No, no. I know what Bob Ricks said.
-- the guy on the radio said I don't know. I'm not
listening to it.
!
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:525
sign, that there are a lot of people --
STEVE: John, it's hard to believe that I'm
in such a position in here --
' JOHN: Hey. '
STEVE: -- and somebody telling me about
attorneys.
JOHN: It is.
STEVE: I mean, wow, it's just a mind blower.
JOHN: It is, cause you've never been in
that position before, have you?
,1 STEVE: _Well, no. I mean, I've not gone and
broken the law. I don't see that I have now, but, you
know, that remains to be seen I guess.
JOHN: It does, it does, you know. I'm not
going to sit here and --
STEVE:' 'Cause I haven't --
» JOHN: - call you a criminal or call you
anything else.
STEVE: I haven't bought anything, I haven't
done any illegal things. Why?
JOHN: Hey.
STEVE: So but, anyway, that'll --
JOHN: The process will work that out, right?
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: But what you're doing, though, is
you're taking the first step because you're listening,
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you're trying to communicate, and you're trying to work
this thing out. And you know what's right, and a lot
of those people -- 4
T STEVE: Well, yeah.
JOHN: Those two little old ladies thatfcame
out here the other day --
STEVE: How are they doing?
JOHN: They're doing just fine. And, and,
you know, I haven't seen them personally, I've seen
them on TV.
STEVE: _Where are they staying or what kind
of a situation are they in now? I'm hearing
conflicting things from both the press reports and from
the conferences --
JOHN: They, they've been released. You
know, they're not --
STEVE: But I heard --
JOHN: -- in any custodial situation.
STEVE: -- or something like that.
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE: Gary Coker took then on or something
like that or --
JOHN: Well, he may have. He may have
provided them --
STEVE: But I heard that they're only
material witnesses and that there were no charges
I
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against them, but --
JOHN: That's exactly right. ~
STEVE: But, obviously, if he's their
attorney, what, what's involved here?
JOHN: He's just representing their interest,
that's all. They will be called as material witnesses,
which means they're, they're free. They're out and he
is going to probably advise them.
STEVE: Are they staying in the local city
here or are they --
I don't know.
You don't have any idea?JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN: No, I really don't.
STEVE: What happened with Bob Kendricks,
also? I hear he was taken into custody.
JOHN: He was arrested today.
STEVE: Oh, today?
JOHN: And when he was arrested, he had two
weapons. ~~
STEVE: On him?
JOHN: Yeah, when he was arrested. He had
two semiautomatic handguns on him when he was arrested.
It was without incident. There was no incident.
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN: You know, there was no struggle. It
was strictly here we are.
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STEVE:: Where was he? Was he like in the --
Was he in Waco or something? " '
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Oh, he was?
JOHN: He was at a residence in -- Well, I
won't tell you it's downtown Waco, but it's in the Waco
area. And he was arrested by the BATF personnel and
the Texas Rangers.
STEVE: S0 --
JOHN: And there was no incident, there was
no, no struggle or anything.
STEVE: Was he involved in that Mike
thing Schroeder or do you know anything about that?
JOI-EN: He was involved -- Yes.
STEVE: Oh, he was?
JOHN: That's the situation where somebody
was killed, somebody was wounded, and somebody was
taken into custody.
STEVE: I see. I see.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Yeah, because there was, you know,
information like that in the very beginning and, all of
a sudden, there was not much after that, so --
JOHN: Yeah, but I just don't know all the
facts about it.
STEVE: Yeah.
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JOHN: ,But I know what I heard on the radio
and, and I know that he is in custody and he has been
charged with, with several things. And he did in fact
have two weapons on his person when he was arrested
today. So -- _ T
STEVE: Yeah, like, see, my position, it's
like of course, you know, one's like between a hard
place and a rock. On one hand --
JOHN: It is.
STEVE: -- you look at the law of God in
fear, on the other hand you look at the law of man.
JOHN: In fear.
STEVE: Yeah. And it's like and I'm stuck in
the middle because -- v
JOHN: You know, but the, the biggest thing
you have to look at is -- '
STEVE: Well, what I was going to say --
JOHN: -- being realistic about this, this
whole thing. »~
STEVE: Well, really, John, I just wanted to
quickly say --
H JOHN: Go ahead, go ahead.
STEVE: -- though, in response to that is
that here's this law of God and this God that I do fear
by this book. I mean --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
I
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STEVE:. -- it's the one consistent answer
I've seen about my beginnings, how I got onto this
earth in the first place, the possibilities of getting
out of this earth. So I look at the source, the Bible,
and I, I see that God means what he says. I, I believe
that. So for that reason, if it wasn't for that, I
would have been out a year ago, five years ago,
yesterday.
JOHN: Hey.
STEVE: Do you understand what I'm saying?
JOHN: I really do and I really appreciate
your --
STEVE: So what I'm saying -1
JOHN: - strong religious beliefs. I really
do.
STEVE: So what I'm saying, I myself am
waiting on David, to give him that last chance to see
what he's got to say. I mean, if it wasn't that I
didn't have some kind of, like you said, a conviction
there, a fear of God, man, I mean, I'm serious, no one
wants to put themselves into any kind of jeopardy of
any sort.
JOHN: You're right.
STEVE: S0 --
JOHN: You're absolutely right. And, and
you've got, you've got to do
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STEVE:. This is basically --
JOHN: -- what's best for you. - -
STEVE: Well, this is basically the way all
the people see it, you know. Of course, they don't
like the predicament they're in - f
JOHN: NO.
STEVE: -- and they would quickly go to
resolve it, but they have a fear that this God that has
left all these testimonies and statements by the
prophets are a real thing. See, that's, that's what
the whole crux of the matter is.
JOHN: You, you know, the bottom line is,
though, that you know you're coming out of there and I
know you're coming out. '
STEVE: Well, that's true.
JOHN: And the only question is when. That's
the pure bottom line here. But - And you've got to do
what's right for Steve and you've got to do what's
right for Judy, because when you all come out of there
you're going to reunite when you come out of there.
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: And you know that and I know that.
And, and that's going to be the best for everybody
involved. And, and I'm not saying that to play any
mind games with you or anything else.
STEVE: NO, I --
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JOHN: I'm saying that because that's life.
I know that. I'm sure of that. I STEVE:
know.
JOHN: That's life.
STEVE: I believe that.
JOHN: And, and you've got children to raise
and you've got a family to take care of, and, and
there's only one way to do it and that's as a family,
huh? And, and --
STEVE: That's right.
JOHN: - and to relive this life, this
wonderful life that you've really had, together as a
family. So it's just a matter of what you want to do
and when you want to do it. And, and I know if it's
confusing for you, how difficult it is for people that
don't have the education that you have. It's really
got to be difficult for them.
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: So they're the ones that need the
guidance and they're the ones that need the leadership,
and David has been really not offering a lot of
guidance in the last more than 24 hours, 'cause we on
the outside have not talked to him in -- since about
five o'clock --
STEVE: Probably yesterday.
JOHN: - yesterday. Sure.
f
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STEVE: Yeah, that's right.
JOHN: And whether he's just in there in a
lot of pain and, and anguish and --
' STEVE: I did -~ Well, I did look in there
and there's -- Yeah, hes, he's definitely got the
pain. He definitely does.
JOHN: Yeah, but he's not making any
decisions and he's not making any movement.
STEVE: Oh, no. No.
JOHN: And from our standpoint, you know,
when we talked to you, to you the other night -~ well,
when Max talked to you last night, we talked about a
credibility issue on our part. I look at our dialogue
and Max's dialogue with you and Henry's dialogue and,
and all the guys in the daytime as being a very
positive thing, because you know and I know as long as
people are talking, things are positive, aren't they?
STEVE: Well, that's true, but --
JOHN: For us to try and plant that seed in
the minds of the people that go talk to the media every
day and the media says well, what happened today and
they said we didn't get anybody out today, and how come
and why not, is this breaking down, is that breaking
down? And you and I know it's not breaking down, don't
we?
STEVE: Well, of course, it isn't.
D
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JOHN: No. But that's not the way other
people look at it, and they get of the mind that let's
tighten this noose a little bit. And it's really not
necessary, is it?
STEVE: Well, see, even as with David said
yesterday, or it was the day before, I think he was
talking with John, if I remember right, and he said --
he again is talking in the manner of coming out.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: And he said for himself, you know --
I mean, he himself wants to see a quick end to this.
He doesn't want to be prolonging it, other than he's
still waiting for that word.
JOHN: You better go blow in his ear, huh?
STEVE: Yeah, but he wants, you know, he
himself wants to see, as he stated, that all of us
would be coming out, as he stated a week ago Tuesday,
and that still is his desire. That's --
JOHN: But he"hasn't done anything for over a
day.
STEVE: Well, yeah, in the condition --
JOHN: You know who's been doing, you know
who's been keeping this thing on an even keel for over
a day is you, not David?
STEVE: I know, but the bottom line is, you
know, in speaking with even John earlier or reiterating
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the procedure as it was laid out even a week ago, he
doesn't -- he's not moved from that, David himself
hasn't. He wants to do it that way.
' JOHN: I know.
STEVE: Do the best thing. He's preparing
his mind to, to accept that, to move on with it. He
just says just that one word. He says he's waiting
from his God for that one word and, and he's out of
here. And --
JOHN: You know and I know that David's going
to_reach the point where that word's going to strike
him, you know. You know it and I know it. It's going
to strike him in his way than it would probably strike
me in a different way. And he's becoming more
miserable in there, he's becoming more uncomfortable in
there. It's, it'snot a pleasant thing. And the word
is going to come down and the only question is when the
word comes down.
STEVE: Mmmme-
JOHN: But you also have to keep in mind that
everybody else is going through this pain and suffering
in there --
STEVE: Oh, yeah, for sure. '
JOHN: -- at the same time. Adults can, you
know -- We say that children can react to things a lot
stronger a lot of times than adults can. If you move
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36
and you go into a new neighborhood or a new environment
in a new city, they seem to, to make their friends and
fit in and, and have a less difficult time of changing
environments than adults do.
STEVE: Um-hum, '
JOHN: But in a situation like we have here,
it's not the same, is it? The children --
STEVE: No.
JOHN: - have a very difficult time of it,
you know, much more difficult than adults. Is, is --
_, STEVE;__I don't know. Do you really think
Umvstnm?
JOHN: Sure, because there's that unknown.
STEVE: It's like --
JOHN: The lights are out.
STEVE: -- they adapt very quickly and easy
to a lot of environments, as was shown on the video
that was sent back to us today. It appeared like
JOHN: I'm talking about the children inside
where you are.
1 STEVE: I see.
JOHN: Not the children on the outside. And
I know some of the things irritated you. And, believe
me, that video
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: -- wasn't made to irritate anyone. It
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was to show you --
STEVE: Well, of course not. And that's why
a lot -- -
' JOHN: But the kids are healthy.
STEVE: -- a lot of the mothers wanted to get
back on the phone today in that video. And, in fact,
they will do that tomorrow, you know, first thing. I'm
going to get up --
JOHN: Hey, they might be coming out of there
first thing, you know. _
STEVE: No, what
JOHN: You don't--
know what word's going to
tell David.
STEVE: Yeah, well, you know, what they
wanted to actually bring out, too, was they actually
appreciated what was being done and, and --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- all the attempts there. They
didn't want to be misunderstood on that. A couple got
irritated when they saw their kids jumping up and down
on the couches.
JOHN: The lack of discipline.
STEVE: Yeah. Running around wild, because,
you know, they don't want their children to grow up
doing that --
JOHN: I know, I know.
~
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STEVE: -- with others furniture and homes
and things of that nature. So, and they, they realize
there's a connection to hyperactivity and having a lot
of sugar and -- So they try to keep that down to a
minimum. I 2 -
JOHN: Well, the, the video was to show
they're healthy. And they're kids, right?
STEVE: They, they realize that. They knew
it was --
JOHN: And kids are going to be kids, aren't
they? _ V
STEVE: They, they knew it was done in the
best of intentions and --
JOHN: You bet. You bet.
STEVE: And so --
JOHN:~ But I was talking about the kids that
are inside there --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- where you are. And, and it's, hey,
the lights go out at night and they're probably -- As a
result of things that happened a week ago, they have
bad dreams, they have problems, they have other things
like that.
STEVE: And, in fact --
JOHN: It's tough, it's tough.
STEVE: And, and it doesn't seem like, in
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honesty, that they have had. I don't know, it's,
it's -- -
JOHN: Well, are you sleeping as well every
night as you did two weeks ago?
STEVE: Probably.
JOHN: You think so?
STEVE: Yeah. Because, you know, you get
so -- The reason being is one gets -- you get to the
place of exhaustion and it's -- you, you lay your head
back and, and you're gone. But, you know, on the
whole, I've always been a person that -- I'm a very
light sleeper, in the first place, so -- But, no, I
think --
JOHN: You must be waking up every 15 minutes
if you're a real light sleeper.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. I mean, that happens. But
I've been getting --
JOHN: But it's a different environment
that -- -_
STEVE: It is. Sure, it is.
JOHN: -- everybody's been going through.
STEVE: Everything's been turned upside down
here and it's not like it was, of course.
JOHN: Hey, it's not easy. It's not easy.
I've got -- Do you have a, a piece of paper and a, and
a pen or a pencil or something there?
.-- 4
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STEVE: Let me check here. Let me look. I
do have around here somewhere. " '
JOHN:
STEVE
Okay, go ahead.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
inside would be
STEVE
JOHN:
daughter-inlaw.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
Doyle and
STEVE
JOHN:
Karen, who --
STEVE
JOHN:So you can jot a little note down.
Okay, let me see what we've got here.
I've got five people that called in --
Okay.
- about some folks on the inside.
Okay. »
Okay? And, and the people on the
a Eloyd Houtman, H-O-UT-M-A-N.
Okay.
Gloria called, and that would be his
Okay.
Okay? And there's a Cleve --
Clive?
Clive?
Okay.~
Where I'm from it's a Cleve. Clive
his daughter Sherry, I guess.
Okay.
His daughter and her sister called,
Karen called?
Yeah, she sure did.
- 41
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25STEVE;
JOHN:
STEVE:
. JOHN:
there?
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
-- JOHN:
not sure.
STEVE:
JOHN: l
STEVE:
JOHN:
Canada and he is
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:41
Okay.
From out in California.
All right.
And you've got a Yvette Williams in
A what is it?
Yvette Williams.
Yvette?
Yeah.
Okay.
I may have seen her on a video, I'm
You did.
I thought I did see --
You definitely did, yeah.
Well, Herman Williams called from
her brother.
Okay.
From up in Alberta, Canada.
Okay.
And you've got a, a Sandra Harding --
Okay.
-- in there? And a Denise Johnson
called from -- who's a British citizen, also, and
they're cousins and she's in town here and called.
STEVE: All right.
~
~
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JOHN: -And then you had -- The last one would
be a Gregory Sommers, Greg Sommers. " '
STEVE: Okay. _
JOHN: A Kim Lambert called, and it's a
former girlfriend of his called.
STEVE: Oh, brother.
JOHN: Hey, I don't know if he's, he's
married or he's not married or what. A
STEVE: Yeah, he is married. That's why --
JOHN: Is he?
STEVE: _- this, this past girlfriend
calling, you know, won't be the greatest news in the
world.
JOHN:. Well, maybe you should catch him
aside, I don't know. All, all I have is, is five names
of people that have called --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- their phone numbers, where they
called from, and, and the people that they called for.
So at least it shows concern on their part.
STEVE: What kind of -- Is there any kind
of -- Have you noticed what kind of a message this Kim
Lambert left for Greg? He'll definitely be curious
about that one.
JOHN: The only thing I have is that she
called. I
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JOHN:
kind of message
want to pass it
STEVE
involved with a
JOHN:
A STEVE
JOHN:
that. I really. Okay.43
I mean, I'm sure I could find out what
it would be, but I'm not -- You may
on and you may not.
Right.- I believe that she was
paternity suit against him.
Are you kidding me?
No, I'm not.
Oh. Well, I don't know anything about
don't. I have no idea. All I've got
is names, addresses, and phone numbers of these people.
STEVE
JOHN:
called for.
STEVE
JOHN:
to let him know,
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVERight. Okay.
And, you know, and, and who they
Okay.
And if you think it's the proper
let him know. If you don't --
Definitely, yeah.
If you don't, don't tell him.
It definitely wouldn't make him
anything extremely happy.thing
JOHN: Because I know what you're going to
do. You're going to tell him John called --
STEVE: No, not at all. '
JOHN: -- and, I mean, I'm going to bear the
brunt of this thing, huh?
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STEVE; Nah. Well, you know it wouldn't be
like that. It's - You're passing on information of
people that are -- that's all. _
' JOHN: I trust your judgment. I trust your
judgment on that one. , '
STEVE: John, you're all right.
JOHN: Believe me. Well, hey, we're going to
put together a video, too.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Of, of Henry --
STEVE:_ All right.
JOHN: - and Max and, and all the guys that
have been talking to you.
STEVE: Okay, sounds good.
JOHN: May send one in to you.
STEVE: Sounds good to me.
JOHN: So you'll get to see what we look
like.
STEVE: For sure. So Jim, he's long gone,
huh? V
JOHN: It'll, it'll be easier for you to come
out and see what we look like.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. But I -- Would I even be
seeing any of you guys?
JOHN: You would.
STEVE: I would, huh?
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JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: That's good.
JOHN: If you want to. '
T STEVE: Oh, yeah, I would. I definitely
would.
JOHN: You know, hey, there's no animosity --
STEVE: You've spent some long hard time
trying to work things out and --
JOHN: Believe me, there's no animosity on
our part.
STEVE: I believe that, I honestly do.
JOHN: We, we are just trying to see that the
right thing's done and that --
STEVE: What -- "
JOHN: We're trying to keep a lot of people
going down -- . -
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- the center of the road.
STEVE: I spoke with John earlier in the
day -- _
JOHN: John II --
STEVE: -- and he was mentioning to me that
in fact the day that that happened --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- we were talking about that and he
asked me where I was, what I was doing. And I said
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well, I was at the end in the office there.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And when I heard the, the shooting
and all that, the first thing I did is went to the
phone, got hold of the phone. And he said that could
be verified that I spoke with a Byron, I guess.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I think he was from the FBI.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I don't -- What was his last name?
But he gave me the last name.
JOHN: Sage.
STEVE: Sage, that's it.
JOHN: And I'm saying Sage because there's a
Byron Sage -- I
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - here in Waco, Texas.
STEVE: Oh, really? I also - See, the first
person I spoke with was*actually a Larry Lynch, I
think, of the Sheriff's Department.
JOHN: Yes. I met, I met him.
STEVE: You have? Okay.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: But I didn't -- we didn't know what
was going on. I didn't have the foggiest -- Well, I
mean, I heard something.
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JOHN: Was there somebody with you?
STEVE: Well, Wayne Martin was. We two were
in that office. We were in --
1 JOHN: Well, you know what would have to
happen, don't you? " T
STEVE: What's that?
JOHN: Is that Larry would have to testify
and, and so would, so would Byron. And probably at a
hearing, at an initial appearance hearing or at a, at a
hearing as to yes, in fact, they did take a telephone
call and it was such-and such a time and you were, you
were on the phone. They're not going to go up and lie
about something like that.
STEVE: No, no, I believe that. No, I'm sure
they wouldn't. In fact, I'm not really concerned that
they would. W i l
JOHN: Well, it would be to your benefit,
that's for sure.
STEVE: Of course, of course.
JOHN: Hey, nobody's saying you're, you're
not a man of peace and you're not a man of, of God and
you're, you're a person of violence. Nobody is --
STEVE: No, I -- i
JOHN: - casting aspersions where they
shouldn't be cast. Some people are, are going to have
a problem here. You know it and I know it.
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STEVE:_ Um-hum.
JOHN: And, and I'm not the one to judge.
That's not my job. My job may be to, to, to testify at
some point that we talked on the phone and, and we had
some pretty good dialogue, you know, and that, that we
were not trying to alienate a situation. And, and I
think that would be the way of everybody that's been
talking to you on the phone. And talking to, to David,
sure, things get testy sometimes. People get a little
frayed sometimes, but --
STEVE: Well, that's what it amounts to, you
know.
JOHN: That's human nature, though, and it's
because of the tension involved. That's, that's what
that's all about. But, you know, you've got to do
what's best for Steve. At the same time, you've got to
do what will put your family together. And I'm not
just talking about your religious family, I'm talking
about -- 1-
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - your family.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And, and you've got to make up your
mind what's going to be the best for you and what's
best for your family, huh?
STEVE: Um-hum.
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JOHN: And if in your mind the best thing is
to say hey, John, I'm grabbing that flashlight and I'm
walking out of here in 15 minutes, that's your
decision. And if you want to say John, I'm waiting for
the word to come down, you know, I can tell you I111 go
up and pick up the loud speaker and tell David the
word's about to come down. We can go on and on as far
as that's concerned, and nobody out here is going to
turn their back on you. And we will continue talking
to you and talking to David until the decision is made,
but we know reality.~*And it's just going to be a
matter of time and, basically --
End of Tape 108.!