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OLIVER GYARFAS, SR., gg Q1;
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THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, gg Q1;
£}aintiffs' First Request For Production
and Inspection of Documents
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Responsive Documents from
San Antonio file 89B-SA-38851
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excised copyQ-A mg
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QELEIQON COQES
Information which is properly classified pursuant to
Executive Order, the disclosure of which could reasonably
be expected to cause damage to the national security or the
conduct of the Government's international relations.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to reveal the
identity of an informant.
Information obtained from a foreign government or
international organization where there is an agreement or
understanding that the information received will be treated
confidentially.
Information protected under the Grand Jury Secrecy provision-
Rule 6 e! of the federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to identify a
source of information, where confidentiality is expressed or
implied.
Administrative file numbers.
The Law Enforcement Privilege - The disclosure of this
information could cause harm to, impede, impair, or hinder an
investigation and/or an investigative interest of the FBI.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to compromise
the effectiveness of an investigative method or technique.
Information, the disclosure of which would divulge opinions,
recommendations, and advice generated in the decision-making
process or the government.
Information, the disclosure of which is prohibited by federal
statute with citation to the appropriate statute!.
Information protected under the attorney-client privilege.
Information or material protected under the attorney work
product privilege.
Information which is not relevant to the matters at issue in
the litigation.
Information originating with another government agency which
must be referred to that agency for review. The use of this
code does not waive any applicable codes which may be applied
by the originating agency.
Other, as specified.
Information, the disclosure of which would be an unwarranted
invasion of the personal privacy of an individual not party
to the litigation.
TAP1?/7
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #178
3/2e/93
1:08 A.M. - 6:00 A.M.
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Tape 178!
STEVE: I don't know what the word means,
John.
JOHN: Under federal law -- in the federal
law a conspiracy -- it's, it's Title XVIII, Section 371
is conspiracy and that means two or more people
conspire to whatever, okay? I mean, one person can't
commit a conspiracy, so this is two or more people
conspiring to - so obviously they presented some
information through the United States Attorney to a
Federal Grand Jury and an indictment was returned that
the Federal Grand Jury believed there was enough
evidence to believe that ~-
STEVE: Where did the evidence come from?
Or --
1 JOHN: I don't know. I don't know.
pg STEVE: If you did know --
JOHN: I've been talking on the phone with
people.
STEVE: If you did know, if you did know,
would you be allowed to even say it?
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE: If you did know, would you be allowed
to even say?
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: There is -- is that open information
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to the public at this point?
JOHN: No, no.
STEVE: It's not.
JOHN: Well, you, you understand how a Grand
Jury works?
STEVE: I --
JOHN: Whether it's a State Grand Jury or
Federal Grand Jury, it's a group of individuals from a
community and it's usually a Federal Grand Jury is
anywhere from 19 to 27 people and a prosecutor, whether
it be, you know, a federal prosecutor or local
prosecutor. In this case, a federal prosecutor
presents facts to these people and these people then
determine whether there are enough facts to return a
true bill of indictment. In other words, can we charge
that there is probable cause to believe that she did,
in tact, violate the law.
STEVE: So she was brought before a -- was
she brought before a Grand Jury already?
JOHN: No. The facts were presented to a
Grand Jury by the prosecutor, whatever facts he had.
And an indictment is returned by the Grand Jury, saying
they have reason to believe that Kathy did, in fact, do
whatever --
STEVE: She hasn't gone up before a Grand
Jury yet, though?
O . O
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
of a Grand Jury,
Jury --
STEVE:
JOHN:
before it, those4
N0.
And she's --
And a Grand Jury itself, the minutes
you know, the meeting of a Grand
Right.
-- the, the people and whoever appear
are secret proceedings and the minutes
of a Grand Jury are then made available to a defense
attorney prior to a time that a trial begins. So, even
though it's secret up to that point, prior to any
trial, once a person has a defense attorney and an
indictment is returned, the minutes of that Grand Jury,
you know, the typed minutes, the recording --
STEVE:
~ JOHN :
available to theYeah.
-- of the Grand Jury, those are made
defense attorney, so there's no
surprises. I mean, he, he has a right to that. The
defendant has a right to that. So, at that point it
becomes open --
STEVE: You're starting -- it's not your
fault, but you're starting to lose me because I'm
getting extremely tired. I mean, I've been on the
phone for literally hours.
JOHN: But just think of all those new, fresh
voices you get to speak to.
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STEVE: I'm - my lips are dry. I'm worn
out. I'm -- oh, boy ~-
JOHN= Let me ask you something.
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN: You, you mentioned earlier this
evening to somebody, and I don't know who it was, that
-- about Perry Jones and Peter Gent and Winston Blake?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: What's the story on Jaydean and Peter
Hipsman? Same thing?
STEVE: On Peter Hipsman and --
JOHN: Jaydean.
STEVE: ~- Jaydean Wendell?
JOHN: Yeah. Same thing? I'm not asking you
to tell me how, what, where, when, why. I'm just
asking you the same thing?
;; . STEVE: Well, at this time, you know, maybe
someone else can answer, because I really -- when it
comes to information, details --
JOHN: I don't want to know any details.
STEVE: Okay. Let's --
JOHN: I don't what to know any details.
STEVE: - to you right now.
JOHN: I'm sorry.
STEVE: I, I really --
JOHN: I'm just looking for a yes or a no.
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STEVE: Well, for right now let's leave it
be.
JOHN: Maybe?
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: Maybe?
STEVE: Well, there's other names, too, by
the way, you know.
JOHN: Are there really?
STEVE: Oh, yes. For sure.
JOHN: Well, I know that we, we talked before
and, and we talked about a tiny one maybe, huh?
STEVE: Well, you know -- there's a lot of --
JOHN: But, but you said you didn't want to
discuss that because it involved someone else and I
told you I appreciate that.
" STEVE: Well, see, it's like this. It's
I
becapse of certain relatives --
JOHN: Sure.
_ STEVE: -- it's people there's certain
people that want certain things respected. It's --
JOHN: Yeah, but there are certain relatives
out here that would like to know, too, probably.
STEVE: It's the reaction to --
JOHN: What do you think?
STEVE: I know, but at the same time, we were
greatly insulted in the beginning days of the
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negotiations if you want to call them that when what
happened with Pete Gent and that --
JOHN: What can I tell you. That, that's
past history isn't it?
STEVE: No, no. But still that's why when it
comes to what's all taking place now are questions.
You know, there's a number of names I could even give
you now, but I wouldn't say what the condition of the
person was.
JOHN: Why?
STEVE: So even now -- well, until those
people that are directly involved as relatives or
friends, they've made their decision.
JOHN: Well, you mean, if I asked to speak to
Jaydean, you wouldn't let me speak to her? If I asked
to asked to speak to --
;} STEVE: No, if you wanted to --
JOHN: - speak to Peter --
STEVE: N0 .
JOHN: - you wouldn't let me speak to him.
STEVE: Not so. In fact, if they're asked or
if they want to, it's fine. There's a lot of people
you haven't asked to speak to and --
JOHN: I know, I know.
STEVE: And those that you have, there's some
that are shy and have turned it down and I said, oh,
{ 1.
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it's no big deal, you know.
JOHN: Normally when I ask to speak to -- or
anyone asks to speak to one, it's because a relative
has inquired --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- and we want to pass a message on or
something. And there are an awful --
STEVE: I'll tell you what I will do, you
know, because I'm so tired, though, but I will -- oh
boy. I'm losing my voice. Tomorrow morning --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- when I've had a little rest --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- let me call back in because
there's a lot of things that I'm going to be talking to
you or"to John or somebody about and that -- we've
I
talked about three or four major issues. We can throw
that in also if you'd like. I mean, I'll, I'll work it
out and talk to these people --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- to see if I can't even give you
minute details about --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- some of these things.
JOHN: Listen. Listen to me.
STEVE: Yeah.
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JOHN: I want you to give it a lot of thought
about after you do the, the video in the morning --
STEVE: All right. _
JOHN: -- to -- just coming out -- if you
want to bring someone else out with you, that's fine.
I'm not being -- I don't mean somebody else to wander
off. Just, you know, you came out before with Wayne.
If there was somebody that would make you more
comfortable --
STEVE: No, it doesn't -- I don't, in fact,
you know --
JOHN: Well, that's your decision to make.
STEVE: I'm -- if I talk to someone, I don't
need to have anybody with me. I really don't.
JOHN: Well, whether you were more
comfortable last time with Wayne --
I
3 STEVE: Well, no, the reason why Wayne came
was because I don't really know Jack Harwell and I --
from what I understand --
JOHN: Really?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: He's a class guy.
STEVE: Well, yeah. See, Wayne knew him
apparently.
JOHN: Oh, really?
STEVE: Yeah, and I, I didn't, so that's why
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I mentioned to Wayne, well, Jack has requested first
David to be out there. Because of his, his condition
he can't, so I guess my name's come up.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: But --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: I'll ask him. If you want --
JOHN: Hey, if you're more comfortable,
that's fine. If you're not, that's fine. Nobody's
pressuring you to do anything you don't want to do. I
just think that there are some things that could be
personalized that you can talk that way.
STEVE: Well, I don't know what --
JOHN: The other thing is, we need to talk to
David.
" STEVE: -- it doesn't --
I
,} JOHN: I mean, David has been --
STEVE: If you would have heard what I said
earlier, you know, instead of going over the same
issues, I'm really wearing out. I know I could do
better with you and for you tomorrow if I if I'm a
little bit on the ball.
JOHN: What have you been doing all day?
STEVE: Oh, as usual, talking till I'm blue
in the face.
JOHN: Hey, you know how, you know how
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important it is to talk to David. I was told that
there was one, one question they wanted to ask him and
he wouldn't talk to them all day. I mean, just one
question.
night --STEVE
JOHN:
singing to me.
Wednesday
he?
number of
was.
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he didn'tSTEVE
night
JOHN:
STEVE
times
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:Oh, he's not -- remember, what
The last time I talked to him he was
No, you talked to him on Tuesday or
with, with the --
Yeah, he knew I was upset too, didn't
Well, yeah, you put the phone down a
Well, you -- he knew I was upset and I
I was, I was shocked. I didn't --
He had just insulted me.
STEVE: What? I heard what he was saying and
really say anything.
JOHN:When he was playing the guitar and
kidding and talking --
STEVE: No, Im talking about that Lewis,
when he came in the door that night. That Tuesday or
Wednesday night, you were up and he talked with you
then.
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JOHN: He -- well, you know he had insulted
me the night before. Playing that guitar and singing
and carrying on like that. That's uncalled for. You
know that, right?
STEVE: well, it wasn't meant to be an
insult --
JOHN: Well, maybe it wasn't. Maybe I took
it wrong, but that's the way it was.
STEVE: Well, anyway, that's --
JOHN: And now, now whether or not, you know,
he didn't want to talk to anybody, whether he's back in
there pouting or sulking or whatever it might be for
the last four days, that seems kind of ridiculous.
SIEVE: No, he's not doing that. I think he
was -- he seems to be kind of like tired and worn out a
lot. He really is.
0'
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coming out in the morning. I've got somebody here --
STEVE: Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be
coming out in the morning --
JOHN: You know what I'm talking about.
Coming out and meeting and talking and exchanging the
video.
STEVE: Well - -
JOHN: Now, if you want to come out, that's
fine too. I'd be happy to meet you down the road.
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STEVE: Number one, remember that worship
hour goes until 9:00 and then I've got to get all these
kids and everybody together after that.
JOHN: You don't want me to call you before I
leave here around 6:00? Give you a wake-up call?
STEVE: Oh, you must be kidding me.
JOHN: Well, I'll be here.
STEVE: Please, no. I mean, with all these
children around and all over the place --
JOHN: Just put the phone right under your
ear and I'll, I'll get you up nice and early. Be
fresh.
STEVE: I'm getting old.
JOHN: Get steak and eggs for breakfast.
STEVE: Listen to this --
" JOHN: Feel good.
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know it just stopped when I said listen --
JOHN: What am I listening to. There's
nothing there?
STEVE: Now, how am I going to get a good
night's rest to talk to anybody with --
JOHN: Hang on just a second.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Hold on.
RICK: Hi, Steve.
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
RICK:
you?
STEVE
up to number 16
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Yeah.
This is Rick.
This is who?
Rick.
Rick?
You haven't talked to a Rick yet, have
No, I have -- good lord, we must be
I think, if I'm not losing track.
No. John wanted me to talk to you.
He just -- I've been here since the beginning of this
thing and he needed to go hit the head --
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE
" RICK:
of interesting.
STEVE
RICK:
guess.
STEVE
RICK:
STEVE:
RICK:
STEVESeriously? You have been?
Yeah, pretty much.
You poor guy.
Actually not, you know, it's been kind
It's been an experience, huh?
well, pretty much for everybody I
You sound younger.
Well, I don't know. What's younger?
Well, how old are you?
37. -
Okay. No, I just -- I mean, a lot of
these guys, of course, are late 40s, early 50s it
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sounds like. _
RICK: Well, you know how those FBI guys are.
I mean they're --
STEVE: No, I don't. This is my first
experience with it, other than the Efrem Zimbalist, Jr.
program.
RICK: I'm really kind of looking forward to
meeting you, though, when you do come out.
STEVE: Okay. It might -- maybe I might --
RICK: I've been listening to you for --
STEVE: -- meet you tomorrow?
RICK: Well, I don't know whether I'll be
down there tomorrow. I mean, when you --
STEVE: Oh, when I, when I finally exit this
whatever it's going to be by the time they're done with
it. ~
ug RICK: Yeah, when we get this thing over and
get on to bigger and better things, you know?
STEVE: Yeah. Well, I mean, for you anyway.
For me it'll be some camp who knows what here. Huh?
RICK: Well, not -- you know, not really.
I've, I've been around a while and I've had some
relatives that have had a few problems here and there
and gone through the things and it's --
STEVE: I didn't even know I had any
problems, but I mean all of a sudden I definitely have
l
something going on here
world, but --
RICK: Yeah.,5
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that isn't the best in the
Well, sometimes you get into
things that you really didn't have any control over and
somebody else kind of led you into it, you know.
STEVE: Well, I don't even know that I was
led into anything. I mean, I was - I came here for
Bible studies and it turned out to be something other
than that, of course.
RICK: Sure. I understand.
STEVE: So what can I do for you, Rick?
RICK: Well, I wanted to ask you, do you
think there might be a possibility that you would like
to talk to your attorney on the phone? Maybe we could
try to work something out.
.. STEVE: I -- yeah, I'm glad you asked me,
0because what I'd like to do is when I'm somewhat rested
and I can give it some real thought, you know, I might
-- it's a good possibility. I mean, at this point of
time, you know, I haven't really thought seriously, I
guess, about talking to
lot of avenues had been
about. I mean, I, I've
thoughts frequently, as
tell you if you've beenhim because it seemed like a
closed since this all came
expressed my opinions and
a lot of these negotiators will
listening in.
About my thoughts about what's happened to
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this country, about freedom, about rights being, of
course, stamped on and I, I tell you one thing. I, you
know, you've already picked up that I'm a religious
person, if you want to call it that. Not this -- well,
I -- I guess I wouldn't even say I'm a religious
person. I'm a person that has some certain beliefs
based on the Bible. I guess I wouldn't even call
myself religious. But I'm, I'm strongly convicted in
what I've read and studied and what I've seen and I
think there's going to be a final judgment that's
contrary to what you and I and all of us think.
RICK: Well, I kind of understand what you're
saying and that way, but if you'll tell me right now
that you would like to talk to your attorney --
STEVE: Okay.
" RICK: -- for sure, then I -- with a
commdtment like that from you then maybe, maybe we can
work it out and, and make those arrangements for you.
What do you think.
I STEVE: Well, I don't know. What kind of
thing are you thinking about? Are you talking about
over the telephone? Are you talking about --
RICK: Well, if that's what we can arrange,
yeah. If you, you'll just tell me that's the way you
want to do it and give me a commitment there, then,
then I can go from that --
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STEVE: Let me, let me have a good night's
rest and give it some thought and tomorrow, you know,
that amongst a few other issues that I'm speaking with
John5, as he terms himself. I guess John O'Neil, he
called himself?
RICK: Yeah. Yeah, that's correct.
STEVE: John O'Neil, okay, and --
RICK: He's a dynamic kind of guy, isn't he?
STEVE: Well, a lot of you guys are. You
wouldn't be in the position you are. I mean, dealing
with people, weird cases like this. Like yourself, I
mean, through my life I've dealt with thousands of
people from all walks of life and I'm interested in
humanity myself and also advancing, you know, people
doing better and helping them, of course, and I never
thought~I'd be on this side of the picture, but here I
Fam .
RICK: Well, like I said, you know, if you'll
think about, think about it with your attorney. Of
course, we'd, we'd try to -- if we were going to
arrange something, we'd definitely -- I'm sure the
attorney would want us to arrange it where it was just
you and he talking --
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: -- and not anybody listening in on it,
so --
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STEVE: Well --
RICK: I kind of know how attorneys are, you
know. I deal with them fairly frequently.
STEVE: Well, it wouldn't matter to me if
anybody was listening or not because the truth is the
truth and -- '
RICK: Well, but I know that that's kind of a
private thing and we wouldn't want your attorney to
feel restricted by someone listening in.
STEVE: Well, I, I tell you the honest truth.
I don't I guess America's changed so much -- well, I
haven't been apparently up to date as to the things
going on. I mean I've never been certain how it works
with bugs and things of that nature, so I know you guys
can gain information from many different types of
sources and avenues and, and apparently it can be used
in spurts and from what I'm understanding now --
' RICK: Well, you know, I know
STEVE: Like Kathy. I, I, I would guess from
what -- just from common sense, it would seem like
Kathy Schroeder has a conspiracy charge against her
because of information being gained that way I would --
it would seem. I don't know.
RICK: Well, let me tell you something. I,
I, I'm on a local level and I'll be honest with you,
I've seen some stuff on the local level that I've not
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been real excited with, but I can tell you right now
that I've never seen anything on the federal level in
the court system --
STEVE: Hey, somebody must have dragged some
kind of a factory in here or something, because they're
pounding on something out here. I don't know what. I
was listening to some seagulls here a moment ago.
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: I thought I was back in Hawaii.
RICK: Well, that -- as I was saying, I've
never seen anything on the federal judicial level where
I wasn't proud of the way the system worked, you know.
STEVE: That's good to hear.
RICK: It's really good, you know, like I
said. I'm, I'm on a local level and I've seen some
things.that I've been disenchanted with, but not, not
fromgwhat I've seen on the federal level at all.
' STEVE: Okay.
RICK: And I, I can pretty much promise you
that, that as far as the way the federal judicial
system is going to work for you all in the honesty and,
and, and being above board about things, that you're
going to be real pleased with it when you do come out.
I don't have any doubt about that. And I -- it's been
really an education, an education here --
~ STEVE: Well --
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RICK: - for me and I know it has for you --
STEVE= Well, what's in an education?
RICK: - and from what I've seen I can
pretty much tell you that, that I feel real comfortable
about-the fairness in which everyone's going to be
treated.
STEVE: I -- if I was sitting in your shoes,
Rick, I would feel very comfortable also. I really --
RICK: I can understand that. I can
understand that.
STEVE: But as to what I've seen with Kathy
-- if what happened there -- Kathy Schroeder as what it
appears has -- I can imagine. I mean, they think that
I'm some kind of a highly influential person here
because I can talk just normally and it would seem like
that's going to go a long ways to getting me into more
trouble.
I never really thought of myself as ever
being even close to trouble, other than a lot of people
in the religious world get angry when they can't
controvert what they -- what you have, what you're
opening up to them, but that's about as close as I've
been to getting myself in danger.
Other than coming to this building a little
more than a month ago and all of a sudden bullets
flying all over the walls and --
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RICK: Well, can I, can I level with you just
a minute?
STEVE: Sure.
RICK: You know, I've been, been here pretty
much like I said from the beginning --
STEVE: Oh, okay.
RICK: -- and I've listened to a lot of the
different people in there so I've kind of got a feel
for their emotions and how they're feeling and they're,
they're fears and that sort of stuff and, and to be
honest with you, I understand fully well how they're,
they're really concerned about the deal with Kathy, but
you know, as with anything else, it sounds a lot worse
than it is and right now, really all it is is an
allegation and it's just like a lot of other things.
_ Once it goes to court, the facts are
presented and everything comes out, then, then the
4
truth will be, will be brought to light and things will
be decided from there. And, and I know that it's easy,
again --
STEVE: Well, hopefully that's going to work.
RICK: Yeah, I know you know -- it's like you
said, it's easy for me to say that from out here, but,
but help me in ensuring my feelings that way, help me
by doing that with the people in there. Explain to
them that this thing is not as big as it seems like and
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that that's what the, the United States is all about
and if we didn't have one of the best judicial systems
in the world, we wouldn't be as strong a country as we
are. It's a fair system. I, I've seen it work from
the standpoint -- like I said, I got some relatives
that had some problems and I've seen it work from their
standpoint.
STEVE: I hope they never had any problems
with the ATF.
RICK: I don't know to be honest with you.
STEVE: These -- wow. I'll tell you what
though. I was telling these guys that I really went
against the very things I've been trying to accomplish
when they heard today's press conference with the
spokesperson making some of the statements he did.
These people were so extremely, highly insulted when no
onepyere has ever been into such a thing as drugs and
1
it was said that we're manufacturing them, we're making
money off them.
I -- man, it's amazing. I mean, if that's
what they can do, bring up a million other things that
have never happened. I mean -- whoa, man, we're in a
lot of trouble for sure. I mean, to think that even
something like that got as far as it did, that it even
made it to the airwaves. Something that was -- been
totally contrived.
QX O}' 24
I mean this Troy guy -- it bothers me that a
person like that is even in that capacity. It really
does.
RICK: Yeah, well --
STEVE: I think he would be -- the American.
people would be safer if the man was pushing a broom
somewhere in a back room.
RICK: Well, let me explain something to you.
You know, I've investigated -- I'm a police officer in
Austin to be honest with you and I --
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: -- I've investigated some, some, some
cases there where, where to be honest with you, you
really can't find out the truth until you get in there
and are able to see the evidence and really find out
exactly what took place.
_j STEVE: Well, why, why is a guy like that --
he ihows -- if you --
RICK: I can't --
STEVE: -- if the FBI, if the FBI is even as
half as good as I hope they would be --
RICK: I can't answer why anyone does
anything, but I can tell you this.
STEVE: Well, I can tell you why. So far it
seems like they're trying to find excuses and reasons
to get around the law so they can prosecute and do more
O O
25
to make it official. '
RICK: But that's what, that's what happens
until the facts are uncovered and the truth comes out.
A lot of people start speculating and making statements
and pointing the finger and all that other stuff. It's
been both ways. It's been both sides of the fence.
And until we get the situation resolved and we get in
there and really study the true evidence and the true
facts and find the complete picture.
STEVE: Yeah. I've got to sit in jail until
all this takes place.
RICK: Well, that but that, you know,
these - you, you know anything about the Texas
Rangers. These guys --
STEVE: Why don't you come and have a game of
chess with me for a couple of weeks.
Q RICK: Oh, you wouldn't want to do that. I'm
good at chess.
STEVE: You are, huh?
RICK: But I'll tell you what. If you'll
come out, I'll give you a chance to beat me, all right?
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: All right. And we'll see just, just
whether I'm any good or not. So, so you think maybe
you can promise me that?
STEVE: Promise you what?
26
RICK: Promise me you'll come out --
STEVE: I'll do that --
RICK: -- sometime soon, promise me you'll
come out and at least give me the opportunity to see if
I'm good enough to beat you in chess.
STEVE: - ambiguous enough for me to agree
tolthat.
RICK: I think, I think that you're coming
out and I'm really kind of looking forward to it, you
know. I, I think -
STEVE: well, yeah, I am, but you know, I
just, there's a few things I'd sure like to get settled
still. I'm still trying to work with these people to
get them trusting the system again, which is not an
easy task with guys like David Troy shooting his mouth
off --~
STEVE: -
that in these press
-- I mean he hasn't
guy has, but I mean
He says some thingsi RICK: Sure.
in the manner he is and I wish
conferences that, I mean, if Ricks
gotten so outrageous as this other
I, I can tell by the frustration.
to try to get a reaction. I don't
even mind that so much, but this other guy -- Lord.
RICK: Well, you know, I've gone through,
through a lot of situations in my life where people
have made some accusations about me and talked about it
0
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that they weren't true and the only way I was able to
straighten that out was to come out, you know, deal
with it directly by coming out and, and, and talking to
the same people that they did and telling my side of
the story and it works for me. -
You know, whenever I talk to people I'm a
very convincing person. When I talk to people about
something I truly believe in, then, then they
understand that I'm sincere and, and they, they go with
it from there and don't really listen to what everybody
else has said.
STEVE: Well, look, I guess what I'm going to
do, -- I tell you the truth, I'm really shocked and
what I'll do is be talking -- I'll call in tomorrow and
I'll be talking to a number -- whosever up and around
and try.to start working a few things out again, see
whatgcan happen.
' RICK: Well, you know, I, I think --
STEVE: I must be like getting near two
o'clock, huh?
RICK: Oh, I don't know. I think it's
probably not quite that late.
STEVE: I've been up ~- if I stay up a few
more hours, I'll have been up 24 hours here.
RICK: Yeah. It's amazing what you can do,
isn't it? The human body? Some of the things that you
P
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28
can --
STEVE: Well, yeah. It's real amazing, Rick.
I, I - to tell you the truth, I am wearing out.
RICK: Yeah. I've, I've gone through some of
these things for, for hours and hours and hours where I
just talked straight all the way through, but maybe,
maybe, you know, someday when David comes out, maybe he
and I can talk for 15 hours at a time like you said
that he's done before. You never know.
STEVE: Do what? I'm sorry. I had a -- see,
you're competing against -- listen to this.
RICK: Yeah.
Pounding in background.!
STEVE: So, you know, I won't be the sharpest
person tomorrow morning when I -- whoever I'm talking
with. .
RICK: Oh, 1 think you'll probably be able to
handle yourself all right. Well, promise me this. You
know, first thing -- what time do you think you're
going to get up in the morning?
STEVE: Hopefully, not any sooner than about
nine o'clock.
RICK: About nine o'clock, but shortly
thereafter you'll be --
STEVE: Because there's usually kids up and
making all sorts of racket as early as six, but I'm
92 1
29
hoping I can sleep through it.
RICK: And shortly thereafter, though, you
will be calling and, and making arrangements. So say
about 9:30 you'll be calling in and making arrangements
to --
STEVE: Yeah, I will be. I will be.
RICK: -- to get some of these things worked
out?
STEVE: Sure.
RICK: Okay. Okay. You know, there again,
there may be somebody calling into you earlier than
that and everything, but they're just trying to --
STEVE: Well, if they call any earlier I'm
going to leave a message somewhere near the phone to
just not bother me, so --
h RICK: Yeah. Well, there might be, you
know --
I STEVE: So if anybody calls, they can talk to
whoever answers the phone, but --
RICK: Yeah. Well, that might, that might.
that might --
STEVE: -- I won't be available.
RICK: -- be good too, but just as soon as
you can get on there -- it's like you said. You wanted
David Thibodeau to get on the phone and, and get those
tapes --
STEVE:' !
30
Yeah, why don't -- I'll tell you
what. He would be interested in doing that right away
so --
RICK: Yeah, just as soon as you can get him
up and get him on the telephone. I mean, he can
call --
STEVE: Well, anybody is -- whoever answers
the phone, you know, just say it's for him --
RICK:
STEVE:
message from his
RICK:Okay.
-- and he's -- as he -- there's a
mother, whatever.
So if we called him bright and early
in the morning, we could probably talk to him then,
right? =
STEVE:
v.
time! you know.
whatitime?
Pause
STEVE:
around till.
RICK:
STEVE:
RICK:
David's --
STEVE:
RICK:Just by -- yeah. I don't know what
There's certain -- everybody sleep --
!
I guess they said 9:30 the guy's not
Said David's not?
Yeah.
Oh, I know, I know -- if, if
See, the problem is we --
If David's a drummer, I know he gets
g 14
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31
up earlier than that. He probably doesn't even go to
sleep until around noon --
STEVE: Yeah, you're right --
RICK: -- in the, in the day
STEVE: -- is right.
RICK: I know how the drummers are.
STEVE: What kind of music are you into,
Rick?
RICK: Do you think David's awake right now?
STEVE: I know -- I wouldn't even bother the
guy. I mean, I'm ready to turn in, not to go have any
conversations with really anybody.
RICK: Yeah? I was.real1y -- you know, this,
this is kind of a landmark for me, you know. I didn't
even think they were going to let me get on the
,.
Phone --
14 STEVE: Have I been on the phone since --
RICK: -- and it would be amazing if you
could let me talk to David, because then I could say
that, you know, that I actually talked to David because
I probably won't get another chance on this --
STEVE: They say I've been on the phone for
two and a half to three hours here.
RICK: Tell me about it. I've been here for
-- since forever, you know. I set up with you guys and
listened to all this and everything else sometimes.
r 13
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STEVE: Are you being educated?
RICK: I really am, yeah. This has been, you
know, it's been very much of an education for me from
both sides of the fence.
STEVE: Interesting.
RICK: But like I said, you know, I, I keep
having people ask me if I've actually talked to David
and, you know, so far the only thing I can tell them is
no. It would really be kind of a point in history for
me to be able to say, yeah, that I talked to the guy
and, and learned a lot, you know.
STEVE: I'm almost apt to believe you.
RICK: I'm telling you the truth. I really
-- you can talk to my 75-year-old father. He asked me
that the other day, you know.
».
, STEVE: Oh really?
4 RICK: Yeah. You know, he's really --
regardless of the circumstance, I mean, you know that
this is a part of history, you know, and you're part of
history and, and --
STEVE: Oh, isn't it a shame?
RICK: -- it, it means so much to --
STEVE: I mean, it's nothing like the
Revolutionary War or anything like that.
RICK: It means so much to, to people like my
dad, who's always been a real honorable man and tried
L 14
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33
to find something in his children that he could be
proud of. It's, it's really great for him to know
that, that his -- that one of his sons, anyway, is at
least trying to do things right, you know, so it'd
really be great if I could talk to David. It really
would.
STEVE: Well, I tell you what, I'll --
tomorrow I'll tell him about you and --
RICK: I'll tell you what.
STEVE: -- work something out.
RICK: Do, do me one favor, all right?
STEVE: What's that?
RICK: And then I'll let you go to
you'll go knock on David's door and tell him
Shirley phonetic sp.! would like to talk to
1.
explain to him what I've just told you a few
ago;-
STEVE: You will?sleep. If
that Rick
him and
minutes
RICK: -- and see if you get any response out
of him.
STEVE: I can't believe that --
RICK: If you don't do that -- I mean, if you
do that and he don't want to talk to me, that's fine.
Okay? But if he does want to talk to me, that'd be
great. Because then I, I could tell my dad --
STEVE: You guys -- what kind of schooling do
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you guys all go through that you have the same exact
persistence and you get on a tangent and it's like
there's no turning you from -- you know, you play on a
person's courtesy.
RICK: I'll tell you what.
STEVE: Listen.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: You play on a person's courtesy and
the -- my upbringing and so forth. I don't want to be
rude to you --
RICK: No, that's all right. I understand.
STEVE: I'm trying to have a good rapport
with all you people, but you know, the human body even,
I mean. And, and one's own integrity and so forth.
You know, there's a place you just should stop and not
1.
go any further, because I, I don't want to do something
likeithat to yourself --
RICK: No, I understand, but --
STEVE: If the roles were reversed, you know,
I'd try to have a little compassion and so forth. You
realize, you know, I'm in a place that is not the most
desirable, of course, and the prospects of my future,
at least for the near future are not looking that
great.
RICK: Well, I guess it was kind of self --
STEVE: I'm very unhappy about a lot of
i
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35
things that I see going on around me and it's not --
RICK: Well, it may be a little
of me. I, I understand that.bit selfish
STEVE: No, no, no. I mean, but you know, I
give you the room and that -- I'll tell you what, you
know. Once I've had some rest and so forth, if you're
around tomorrow, tomorrow evening --
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- I'll do all I can to
influence or to get a hold of him and ask
can't speak with him - serious. Are you
around tomorrow or tomorrow evening?
RICK: I hope so.
STEVE: Okay. Well, I'll - if
possible, I'll ask for you but it doesn't
no matter who I ask for it doesn't reallytry to
him if you
going to be
it's
seem like --
matter
becdse it seems like they stick on who they want --
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: -- as part of their program.
RICK: Yeah. Well, I don't, you know, I
don't know. This -- I, I notice that you
to a lot of people tonight. I think --got to talk
STEVE: I sure did, didn't I? I must be up
to -- you must -- I don't know. I think you're up to
16 or so. It's been a lot of people.
RICK: Well, I remember the other night you
i
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36
picked on poor John Cox and had him talking to about 13
or 14 people, I think, somewhere around there.
STEVE: Did I pick on John Cox and do that?
RICK: He's, he's, he's the nicest guy in the
world. That's what he told me to tell you and --
STEVE: You know, there's all these guys, you
know. I'm always wanting to give them an opportunity
to work with these people because they think that I've
got all this awesome influence and so forth and I've
tried to con -- obviously I've not been able to
convince them. I can't convince these people on this
side. I, I'm starting to think I'm definitely in the
twilight zone here.
RICK: Yeah?
STEVE: I don't know how I -- I'm hearing
thistbecause the results here are not what they think
they§should be. I would have thought long ago they
would have seen that I'm just like the rest here. I've
come to hear something and I've weighed out the
information and -- but I don't have influence on them.
I really don't.
RICK: Well, you're not completely just like
the rest in that with your personality and your
education and your abilities -- a lot of those people
in there depend on you and they, they've put you up on
I C
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STEVE: well, that's the --
RICK: -- as a result of your abilities,
they've put you up on a pedestal, whether you wanted to
be there or not.
STEVE: They don't.
RICK: You know?
STEVE: They've got too much insight. They
see through it all. They see through humanity and what
we're all about and, you know --
RICK: Yeah, but they like you, you know?
And that's a matter of fact.
STEVE: Well, I mean, they like each other
though, I mean.
RICK: Sure.
STEVE: They have respect one for another.
1.
RICK: But they have confidence in your
abiity to work for them and I, and I think it's good
that you reward that confidence by, by showing them
that you are capable of, of making things better for
them.
STEVE: Well, to tell you the truth, Rick,
I'd like to make things a lot better for yourself.
RICK: Yeah, I understand that.
STEVE: With your area of understanding and
you've pursued law and so forth -- law enforcement and
keeping society free from crime and that's great.
I
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38
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: But I've pursued an area that offers
you greater things and I think that you find that
there's a weight of evidence and, and some things that
you can look at that are very factual.
RICK: Well, I fully understand that and, and
I, I totally agree. It's just that, you know, we each
have to pursue those things in our own way and, and
just as you have --
STEVE: Oh, it's not that, not that we have
to. -
RICK: Well, I --
STEVE: I mean a person is free to make any
kind of choices they want.
RICK: No, I understand and it's your choice
CO -f
? STEVE: You know, whatever, whatever religion
is, it's usually a -- it's a social thing, isn't it?
It's a thing that deals with --
RICK: No, I think it's from more of a
private thing actually, to be honest with you.
STEVE: Well, that's, that's not --
RICK: But that's my personal, that's my
personal opinion.
STEVE: Yeah. I was going to say. That's
definitely not Biblical what you're saying, because
0: O
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39
when the prophets came, they came to speak to a lot of
people and came with a lot of warnings.
RICK: Sure, but I, I understand. I don't
want to get into that --
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: -- with you so much, but --
STEVE: No, I know you don't.
RICK: -- just, just to understand that, you
know, it's -- to me, you know, yeah you're right. But
it's still a private thing regardless of whether I do
it in a public setting or whatever.
STEVE: How, how private --
RICK: It's something that I have to --
myself. 1
STEVE: How private -- you know what religion
reallyhis? Let me give you an example. Like you and I
I
are&-- I've given this to one of the guys. Say you and
I were in Switzerland in a chalet. Somebody runs out
of the Alps and says, Rick and Steve, you need to get
out of that place --
RICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- because you're going to be buried
alive by an avalanche.
RICK: Um-hum. '
STEVE: That's basically what religion is.
RICK: Well --
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STEVE: Somebody comes out, having our well-
being in mind, they tell us to get away --
RICK: Well, but you know how I look at that?
STEVE: -- there's a pending catastrophe.
And I would say, I'd say thanks. Let's go.
RICK: Yeah. And I'd say, see that as God
having sent me a messenger to, to help me to continue
with the things that he's given me to do. And then I
would get out of there as quick as I could.
STEVE: Exactly.
RICK: And that's what I think you should do,
too.
STEVE: Very logical. Very good.
RICK: I feel like that that's why I, I do
what I do is because --
1.
STEVE: Well, what if I know some information
thatiseems to follow a very clear, concise path by
history, by the things that are developing right now.
You wouldn't want to take a look to see just maybe,
just possibly.
RICK: Well, I might very well, but the
problem is that it's impossible for, for anyone to
really seriously understand things in this type of an
environment. You have to get out and really sit down
with someone. You know, David can't, David can't do
things --
i
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STEVE: You guys are --
RICK: -- over the telephone that he can do
in person.
STEVE: You guys are so entertaining. Great.
RICK: Well, I don't mean to be, you know.
I'm sincere in what I say.
STEVE: Well, if you were listening from my
perspective.
RICK: You know, how, how much can you
accomplish over a telephone? Really, honestly. Not a
whole lot.
STEVE: How much can you accomplish face-to
-- what's the difference?
RICK: Face-to-face? Oh, it's very -- you
know, body language --
STEVE: I've been -- for years, I've been --
I
3 RICK: -- personality, you know, it's much
more personable. I mean, you think about --
STEVE: Well, if you want to meet with me
tomorrow out front here, I mean, I'm, I'm definitely
willing.
RICK: You, you, you tell me this, Steve.
If, if you and Judy had courted each other over the
telephone and never met, would it have worked?
STEVE: It's possible that it would have.
RICK: Probably not, though.
42
STEVE: But anyway --
RICK: Probably.
STEVE: Rick, if you want to meet with me
tomorrow, I'll definitely give it a lot of
consideration.
RICK: Well, I appreciate that. I'm, I'm in
the hands of, of the folks that I'm with here.
STEVE: And hopefully I'll even be lively
then.
RICK: I think you probably --
STEVE: Right now I really think I'm sleep
talking because I'm hardly remembering what I said a
minute ago. _
RICK: Well, is there anybody else you want
to talk to out here?
g h STEVE: Is there someone there I haven't
spoen with yet? Maybe I can go for some new number
here. No, I, I need to turn in, Rick.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: And especially if these guys are
serious about talking with me in the morning and, and
getting something going.
RICK: Okay. Well, let me make sure I'm
clear just so I can tell everybody that, that we're
clear on this.
STEVE: Do what now?
Q I
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43
RICK: Let me make sure I'm clear before we
get off on what's going to happen in the morning.
We're going to get a hold, we're -- are you wanting us
to call in and talk to David Thibodeau or are you going
to have him call us in the morning?
STEVE: You can call in to do that.
RICK: Okay. So we'll call into him first
thing in the morning.
STEVE: And then I'll call -- for myself,
I'll call you people back somewhere between 9:00 and
9:30 then or somewhere around there --
RICK: About 9:30 you think?
STEVE: Probably so.
RICK: Okay. And then at that point in time
we'll work on getting the video out and then making
arrangements on you coming out to talk with us. Is
that; --
' STEVE: Yeah. I'll be working on the video.
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: Trying to get all the children
together and see what one can do.
RICK: I really appreciate -- you know, I saw
a lot of the kids when they first came out here. It
meant a lot to me to be able to see their faces
firsthand and that they just weren't being prompted by
the video. You know what I mean? And, and I think
r" ! i
44
it'd be great just to be able to see the children
outside, not, not in a controlled environment like
that. You know, and I, I don't -- you know, these
people aren't stupid out here. They're not going to
play little tricks and stuff.
STEVE: who all gets to, who all gets to see
the video?
RICK: Huh? I'm sorry?
STEVE: I mean, would relatives or anything
like that get to see this video of the children if
they're related --
RICK: I don't know -- they're certainly --
those things are certainly possible. I don't know.
There's a lot of things that are possible. I don't
know what all they've done.
z.
y. STEVE: The reason, the reason I was saying
thag is because my sister's always after me to do a
picture and so forth, so --
RICK: Yeah. Well, you know, maybe something
out there -- I ~
STEVE: You can add that she's never seen her
niece.
RICK: Let me tell you something that I've
learned about your sister in a very short period of
time. She, she loves you dearly and she would give --
STEVE: Oh, my family is that way.
y - .. _ -.. ,._. _._ _
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45
,A 1 RICK: Right.
2 STEVE: I mean, that's the way we were
923 brought up. A very close-knit, tight family.
4 RICK: And I hope you're not going to
S disappoint them either. I really do.
6 STEVE: Well, I hope a lot of things, to be
7 honest with you.
B RICK: I understand.
9 * STEVE: Yeah.
10 RICK: I really do understand. So --
11 STEVE: Rick, well it's been nice talking
12 with you and maybe we can pick up on it tomorrow and
13 .see what happens.
14 RICK: Okay, Steve. So you're probably going
15 to be calling about --
4.
16 STEVE: Yeah.i
11 '3 RICK: -- 9:30?
18 STEVE: Yeah. Just pass that on and if they
19 want to call even earlier for Thibodeau, maybe they
20 might get him. I don't know. But, you know, between
21 8:00 and 9:00 everybody's pretty busy. It's a time
22 Ithat they take a break and --
23 1 RICK: Okay.
24 STEVE: -- so it --
25 RICK: Well, try, try to do what you can to,
- to alleviate as many of the fears. I understand that
92 .
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- you know, I really do. I really understand some of
the people's emotions and concerns in there. I've very
sincere with you when I say that because I've listened
to a lot of this. '
STEVE: Okay.
RICK: And, and I've got a feeling for some
of the people, not all the people, but some of them.
STEVE: Right.
RICK: And I, I feel like that, that they all
listen to you from that standpoint of, of not
overreacting to a lot of these things. You know, this
-- a lot of things just are done that way and not to be
overly concerned. I think probably when everything is
said and done and all the facts come out, you'll be
surprised how well things go.
h .
i STEVE: Well, right, right off, I thought I
would be doing very well. x really did. 1 didn't
think that I'd even have any charges, but the more
everyone thinks about it and sees what happens, I start
wondering now.
RICK: Well, it's like you said. If you
didn't do anything, then you don't have anything to
worry about. And that's the that goes for everyone
else in there and like I said, I've seen a lot of
juries and you know how juries are in, in central Texas
if you study the system at all. There's a lot of
O O
*92 g >' 47
people that are, that are very much deep religious
beliefs and, and concerns for people who share those
same beliefs and, and, and juries are, are pretty,
pretty easily influenced by appearances such as
yours --
STEVE: I think -- hey, I think you better
call some of your agents up here. We're -- I think
we're being attacked by indians. Do you hear that?
RICK: Sounds like a herd of coyotes out
there or something.
STEVE: You hear that?
RICK: Yeah.
STEVE: I thought the Indians were all in
reservations and not --
RICK: Well, don't feel bad. I heard a bunch
of coyotes around us last night, so --
I
.1; s'rsvs= Okay.
RICK: -- don't feel like you're in --
STEVE: -- Rick, you're from Texas, huh?
RICK: Yes. I was born in Texas.
STEVE: Oh, really.
RICK: Been around Austin for about -- over
20 years.
STEVE:' Well, I definitely like Austin about
a thousand times better than Waco.
RICK: Well, you know what? I, I think you,
_ 13E
92 ' l
92_ .
you may have the opportunity
in Austin if you --..._._ M .4. . __ ...-..- _-..i... .._._._...--_»-a_.__..... - » . »
r
48
to come visit me someday
STEVE: Well, it sounds good.
RICK: -- if you'll consider coming out and
getting this thing over and done with. Truthfully, the
sooner things are cleared up
investigation can, can begin
thing's going to be over and
will be wrapped up and a lot
lives back to normal.here and the real
with the Rangers, this
done with and, and things
of people can get their
STEVE: Well, let's, let's see what we can
do, then, tomorrow. Maybe we can get this thing moving
quickly again.
RICK: I'd appreciate that, Steve. I really
would. I
3 STEVE: Okay.
.;;
~ RICK: Okay?
STEVE: Pick up on
RICK: All right.it tomorrow.
STEVE: Okay. Talk to you later, Rick.
RICK: Okay.
STEVE: Bye-bye.
End of Tape #178.!
X '
1
O O
I
_~
_ _,-a-
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #179
3/28/93
s=oo A.M. - 12=os P.M.
4l
Tape 179!}
Telephone ringing -- 7 rings.!
JOHN: Hello.
JOHN-4: Hello.
JOHN: Yes, good morning.
JOHN-4: Who am
JOHN: Yes, who
JOHN-4: You're
JOHN: John-4.
now.
JOHN-4: Yeah.I talking to?
am I talking to?
talking to John-4.
John-4! We've got2
four Johns
JOHN: Well, you're talking to John-1 here.
JOHN-4: Okay.
JOHN: Go ahead
JOHN-4: John, is, is, is David Thibodeau
around?
I
4? JOHN: David Thibodeau?
JOHN-4: Yeah.
JOHN: Around? You'd like to speak to him?
JOHN-4: Yeah. I have a, I have a taped
message for him.
JOHN: You have a tape message for him.
JOHN-4: Yeah.
JOHN: Well, look, we are approaching the
worship hour, so is it possible for you to call back
please after that, which would be - let's say about --
1
92
3
3
hey, actually, here, you're lucky. He's right here.
JOHN-4: Okay.
JOHN: All right?
JOHN-4: All right. Fine. Thank you.
JOHN: All right. I'll pass him on, but can
you hopefully bear in mind after you finish speaking
with him that as usual from day to day, worship hour is
from 8:00 to 9:00 and again in the afternoon 2:00 to
3:00.
JOHN-4: Okay.
JOHN: You know, personally, myself, it would
increase my trust in, in you guys if this little daily
observance could be remembered. I mean, the, the way
it's -- what can we say, ignored and abused each day
really doesn't increase my trust in you guys
personally.
i JOHN-4: Well, we get, we get --
I JOHN: It just shows that you guys are very
forgetful. You can forget your word very quickly. You
know, it would help me --
JOHN-4: Well --
JOHN: -- and I'm sure many others if we
could see this sense of commitment on your part to
allow us to keep our worship hour each day between
those hours. Thank you, John-4. I'm going to put you
over to David Thibodeau.
!
. E
DAVID THIBODEAU:' Hello.
JOHN-4: Hey, Dave.
DAVID THIBODEAU: How you doing?
JOHN-4: How you doing. This is John-4.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Good morning, John-4.
JOHN-4: How you doing.
DAVID THIBODEAU: John-4!
JOHN-4: Yeah, I know. It's real. We got
this many Johns.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah. It's crazy, isn't
it?
JOHN4: I got a taped message here for you.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN4: Okay?
DAVID THIBODEAU: I heard something about it
¢- JOHN4: You, you want me to just put it on?
DAVID TI-IIBODEAU: Yeah, sure. How long is
it?
JOHN-4: Okay. Without introduction?
JOHN-4 TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Do you know
how long it is?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Not really, no.
JOHN-4: We don't know.
DAVID THIBODEAU= Oh, go for it.
JOHN-4: Okay. All right. You ready? I'm
just going to put it on.
0: 0
kg J 5
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, great.
The following is from the taped message.!
Hi, Dave. This is Mom. I'm still here in
Waco and I will not leave until you are out of Mount
Carmel alive and safe. I went to the movies the other
night with Jennifer. She's awfully nice. And I want
you to know that Mandy and your friends from the band
send their best wishes to you. I want to share
something with you now from the heart, Dave.
You need to know that your past concerns
about my inability to control my emotions will require
a vast reevaluation from you now. Every moment here in
Waco is haunted with sadness and fear, but I will not
be broken, nor will I leave, but rather I will remain
right here in safe and bonded love, undaunted by
anyone, federal agencies or Davidians alike, by the
i
solid belief that you will survive this trial.
I don't understand why this has carried on so
long and I know that you understand why I don't
understand. But you know that I'm here and you know
that the pain and waiting -- of waiting and worrying
about your life is unbearable. Your spiritual beliefs
are not being challenged, but your ability at this
moment to act and speak like a human being are in
question.
I can't begin to understand the depth of your
i
i
;
L0, 0
t 92 6
belief and your conviction. I could respect it if I
honestly thought that you were helping the people
around you, rather than hurting them. Not long ago you
shared with me your vision to take your music out into
the world and to be able to do something to help heal
the pain and suffering that we're all having to
experience in our lives. And I want you to know, Dave,
that I don't believe for a moment that you have lost
touch with that very honorable vision.
I, of course, look at this entire situation
from a very deep place of guilt on my own part. This
situation has broken my heart, Dave. If a child ever
decided to lash out at a parent or person for the sin
of human imperfection you have proved yourself to be a
master. Punishment is really humiliating for all of
us, but I ask you to please come and talk with me and I
i
hopegto God that my punishment from you, and it's only
from you, Dave, is not to have to live on wondering why
you lost touch with your own mission in life.
And I believe, as I always have, that your
mission of music is essential and I believe that you
will have every opportunity to put that vision into
realization. So come talk to me. Just talk to me. I
love you. ,
Dave, I want you to try to answer a question
for me. And this question has just hit me like, like
I.
V 1o
7
a, like a boulder. Why is it that so many people are
so anxious in anticipating the end of the world? Why
is there this lust? Every century, every generation,
every decade, for the world to explode and end in this
apocalyptic prophecy? when it is so much more
passionate and enthralling to be part of the effort to
make the world live, to make it healthier, so that we
can go on and on and carry on the generations and live.
Dave, I don't understand. I want you to
answer this question for me. I need to know at this
moment in time that you, Davey, that you can answer
that question for me. Please try. I'm waiting to hear
from you. Take care, my dear. Love, Mom.
LEnd of taped message.!
JOHN-4: .Hey, Dave?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, how-you doing.
s; JOHN-4: How you doing. Commercial-free.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, I see that.
JOHN-4: We have no hand in that, okay?
DAVID THIBODEAU: No, that's Cool.
JOHN-4: Whatever she says, she says.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, I understand that. You
know, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm proud of her. I think
she's doing a wonderful job out there. It's -- you,
you heard the tape, I take it.
JOHN-4: No, this is the first time I ever
i O Q
! 8
heard it.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, yeah, you know --
JOHN-4: I listened when you listened.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I was wondering. If I were
to do the same, you know, through the phone, could you
get her a tape?
JOHN-4: Sure.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, that'd be - Oh, that'd
be so wonderful. Because you see - the one thing I do
worry about is, of course, my parents very much. But
like what she said, you know, like I'm punishing her.
And that really breaks my heart, but there's really
nothing I can do about that, because you're aware of
the seals.{ I, I don't know how long you've been
talking to STEVE or Dave.
" JOHN-4: Not long.
I
_§ DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay.
JOHN-4: I'm a fairly new guy.
DAVID THIBODEAU: That's - okay. Well, the
only thing that, that I would say to you and I have to
go because it is my worship hour here, is that in
Revelation 4 and 5, if you're not familiar with that
yet, it, it clearly states that the Book is sealed with
seven seals and it says no man can open the seals or
even look thereon.
JOHN-4: Um-hum.
Q
8,
92. !92 ' 9
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. And we've had 2,000
years of this Book being around and mankind has not
figured out where the seals are, the depthness of the
Book, the mysteries of the Book, and that's why the
Book has been here for 2,000 years, to be able to
harmonize the Old Testament and the New Testament, the
prophets with the, the apostles and what they had to
say because it's the same Spirit that wrote the Book
through both - I
JOHN-4: Umhum.
DAVID THIBODBAU: through both the
prophets and the apostles. And, you know, I'm not --
how do I say this? I'm just here to say, the Book is
now harmonized. It -- there is a crystal clear vision
between the prophets and the apostles. The seven seals
are being revealed and, you know, that, that's our
4'
challenge to the world, you know? All you churches
making all this money off people. Show us where the
seals are, because that's what the challenge in the
very book itself says.
Where are the seven seals, you know? where
are they found in the prophets? Can you show them?
And no one has been able to show them. Except this
young man here that I'm here learning with. And it's
incredible. It's really is. And I hope you gets the
opportunity to listen to some of this stuff. I know
'92 ' 10
your job is to get us out and all that, but so far, you
know, you sound like you got an ear and, you know,
that's really cool and I'm just hoping when you listen,
you listen, you know?
JOHN-4: Umhum.
DAVID THIBODEAU: And try to take in all the
information. See for yourself and if you disagree,
fine, but you know, you're going to see everything
black and white and a lot of the guys in the past it
seems like, you know, they got a job to do and they're
doing their job and they've automatically turned
themselves off from reading the gggglg, the lime, all
these magazines that we're just some weird, crazy cult
and it's just not true. Most of the people in here are
very intelligent. They come from all walks of life,
you know --
ig JOHN4: Yeah. I've got a feel for that.
DAVID THIBODEAU: And it's, it just, it just
floors me, you know? I mean, I can see what the press
is doing to us and I can even understand it in a way.
You know, they're out there for a story, but in
journalism there's also a truth that has to be
established and the truth is not being established, you
know, and --
JOHN-4: Yeah. We, we mentioned that - the
other day we were talking to STEVE about, you know,
92
I
92
92i 1K - ! 11
your side isn't being represented. It's like a debate
with no answer. We can, we can work on getting you to
communicate with your mother. And I understand what
you mean. You need to talk with her.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I'd love to talk with her
direct --
JOHN-4: It's --
DAVID THIBODEAU: - if that's at all
possible.
JOHN4: Yeah. You want to talk to her
direct?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yes, I'd love to.
JOHN-4: Okay. Well, let me, let me work on
that and see what I can set up in that regard.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. If not, I'll make a
|.
tape.I
4 JOHN-4: You know, I've got restrictions here
too.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yes, I realize that. You
have people over you.
JOHN-4: Yeah. Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. I'll work on a tape
and if you can work on something direct that would be
incredible.
JOHN-4: Okay. Have you got the ability to
tape in there?
Q ' ,
A 12
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN-4: Okay. And you've got tapes and all
that?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN-4: Okay. Let me, let me ask you
something regarding tapes. Last night I understand
that they were going to make a video with the children.
Are you aware of that?
DAVID TI-IIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JOHN-4: Let's -- can we work on that today
to get that out to us?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah. I'll bring it up to
STEVE. I'm sure they will right away.
qorm-4; Okay.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Because we did get the
stuff and all that, you know, the battery and --
I
Q JOHN-4: Is, is --
DAVID THIBODEAU: The only problem with
yesterday, see, it was our Sabbath so we don't really
do anything and then at night it's too hard, so we had
to wait till today. I know that for a fact.
JOHN-4: What time are we, are we going to be
talking to David today?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Boy, I really couldn't tell
you. I'm sure as soon as our worship is over I'll have
STEVE get in touch with you and I'm sure it won't be
O O
-. !13
too long. You know? Probably this morning, but I
can't say for sure because, you know, I don't, I don't
know if he's sleeping, I don't know if he was up all
night or not, so --
JOHN-4: It's, it's important that, you know,
we get a hold of management, so to speak.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I realize that.
JOHN-4: Work toward a resolution. That's,
that's what we're all about here.
DAVID THIBODEAU= Well, as soon as I see him
I'll let him know that, you know, the concern is John-4
wants to talk to him and all.
JOHN-4: Yeah.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay, then. I have to go.
JOHN-4: Okay. I appreciate you working on
those two, two items and how about giving me a call
I
backgwhen you get through with worship? That way, you
know, we won't be infringing on, on any of your time.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. Great. Thanks a
lot, John --
JOHN-4: You, you got our number there,
right?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JOHN~4: Okay.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I think so. I'll see you,
John, thanks.
92' ' 14s 92
JOHN-4: All right.
Connection broken.!
'k t 1k i i
Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing -- 13 rings.!
Very loud music in the background.!
STEVE: Hello.
JOHN-4: Hello.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-4: This is, this is John-4. who am I
talking to?
STEVE: This is - well, this is in John5,
but this is STEVE.
yesterday?
i
~#
talked toqonn-4: Oh, hi, srsvs.
STEVE: John-4, did I talk with you
JOHN-4: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE: That's right. That's right. I
a John-5, too, I believe so --
JOHN-4: Yeah, we got a S now.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN-4: Yeah. And, and we really have that
many Johns. Is, is David Thibodeau around?
STEVE: Just a moment. Let -- well, he's
actually playing the drums right now.
JOHN-4: Okay. I need to talk to him about
IF
., A !92_ A 15
that, that recording for his mother.
STEVE: Okay. What I'll do, as soon as he's,
as soon as he's done I'll have him call you or I'll
call you right away and stick him on immediately then.
JOHN-4: Okay.
STEVE: I think what he's trying to do is get
some exercise and so he's starting to beat on the drums
here and -- how's it going today, John?
JOHN-4: Okay. How you doing?
STEVE: Not too bad. Actually it's not too
bad at all.
JOHN-4: Where is John - where is David
right now?
STEVE: David? Probably in his room.
JOHN-4: Okay. I need to talk to him today.
~ STEVE: Okay. I, in fact, wanted to talk
witg him myself. I was just waiting for a few minutes
here to get a few other things done. I was talking to
a couple of people and, and I thought I'd check in with
him again in another maybe half hour and see what he's
-- what's happening. I think he's going to be okay
today, hopefully.
JOHN-4: Did, did -- I understand that you '
got the video done with the children?
STEVE: No, not yet. In fact, I was waiting
to talk with him to see -- I, I wanted to get as many
15
around as possible. The light is real poor today --
JOHN-4: Yeah, it is. Kind of overcast.
STEVE: -- so I got to find a real good room
and I think some of the mothers want to probably --
there, there's - you know, some of them are feeding
the kids kind of late today, I guess.
JOHN-4: Yeah. When you, when you get that
done, we'll work out a way to get it out, okay.
STEVE: Okay. I'll, I'll be calling you back
then.
JOHN-4: Yeah. And, and --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN-4: -- get Dave Thibodeau and, and we'll
get that set up. Okay?
STEVE: Right. Okay.
' JOHN-4: All right. Thank you.
I
g STEVE: Talk to you in a bit. Bye.
JOHN-4: Right. Bye-bye.
Connection broken.!
1' Q i i i
Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing -- 4 rings.!
DAVID THIBODEAU: Hello.
JIM: Mr. Steven Schneider, please.
DAVID THIBODEAU: He's busy right now. This
is Dave Thibodeau. .
K...
JIM: David. How
DAVID THIBODEAU:
Is this John-4? "
JIM: No, this is
DAVID THIBODEAU:
JIM: How are you
DAVID THIBODEAU:
JIM:;.
'4.
!
are you doing?
Pretty good. How
not. This is Jim.
Jim. Hi, Jim.
doing?
Pretty good.17
are you?
One of the things that we'd like to
address with you at this time, instead of sending a
video -- or say an audio tape --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JIM: -- to your Mom, what we'd like for you
to do, if possible, which would, you know, make it a
lot easier on her is go ahead and send her a video tape
of yourself. That way she'd actually be able to see
your physical condition and other than just hearing the
I
words, that she could, you know --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, that would be great!
That's a great idea.
JIM: So, why don't you get STEVE on the line
and we can get some things going here?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. Can I have him call
you back? They are in the middle of some things kind
of important right now.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Him and D.K.
0
Q
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§A ! 18
JIM: About one - about what time?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, they're talking to a
bunch of people right now and it's pretty important.
I'd say within an hour or two at the most.
JIM: Within an hour or two.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah.
JIM: One hour.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, two at the most.
JIM: Two at the most. We'll try to be
expecting the call around 11:10.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. I'll - as soon as
they're done I'll have them call you, okay? Sir?
JIM: Is anybody really talking about call,
you know, coming out of the compound at this time?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, STEVE's been asking us
if we want to go and --
I
§ JIM: Great! You know, we're ready to help
you and that's one reason that I'm on the phone right
now with you.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I'm sure you are. The
reason most of us want to stay is because, you know,
like Dave's still confirming things. He's still giving
studies and, you know, I don't care if you all think
we're nuts, the guy's got the words of life. I mean,
he's got - he can open the entire Book and make it so
plain.
~ } 19
JIM: That's fine.
DAVID THIBODEAU: And as long as he's on the
-- I'm not going to miss that chance, because the
education I've gotten from him for free is more than
anything I've ever thought of learning in high school
or, I believe, even college.
JIM: David, one thing that you really have
to realize right now, that even if you do come outside
and David comes out with you, that he can still preach
and you'll still be able to learn from the man. Do you
understand that?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Uh-huh.
JIM: You know, it's, it's there.
DAVID TI-IIBODEAU: That's great.
JIM: You know, coming out really won't
change'the situation that you have on the inside right
I
now as far as your being able to study with David,
being able to learn from him --
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, you know, that's --
we got an idea what we're going to be through as soon
as we come out. There's, you know, no question.
JIM: Well, that's fine. You know, that's,
that -- we can work through that. That's, you know,
that's, that's just part of the bureaucracy.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Well, to be honest with
you, Jim, the reason most of us are upset is because we
92* ! 20
were in here, you know, a month ago. We were getting
ready to have a Bible study, of all things, and in
America where there's a Constitution, 150 armed people
start coming in shooting at us. I mean, hey, what is
going on here, you know? That, that, that -- it's
uncalled for, you know, and the -- you can say what you
want. We've got illegal weapons, you can say what --
you know, you can say what you want, but the, the truth
is, you know --
JIM: David, let me explain something to you
right now. _
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- proven.
JIM: Here, let me, let me explain something
to you right now.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay.
" JIM: I'm not with the ATP. I'm not with the
FBI§ I'm in from Austin to help negotiate the
situation.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, really?
JIM: I've been here since February the 28th,
observing the situation.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Um-hum.
JIM: This is the first time that I've had
any real participation in any negotiations. You know,
and, and what it is -- it's, it's time to really -- to
resolve this thing peacefully and the only way to do
Q O
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that and to accomplish that is to come out of the
compound. And as I said before, you will still have
your access to David's teachings. Do you understand
what I'm saying?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yes, I understand what
you're saying. You know --
JIM: You know, and, and when you're, you
know, you're having this access to David's teachings,
it's not going to change your beliefs any - you know,
at all. We're not here to change your beliefs.
DAVID THIBODEAU: I, I, I realize that.
JIM: You do?
DAVID THIBODEAU: Yeah, I do.
JIM: Then, you know, I can't really see what
the hang-up is at this time.
'- DAVID THIBODEAU: The hang-up is that it --
to tell you the truth, most of us are quite -- oh, how
can I put it into words - pretty fearful seeing as how
the way this negotiation process has been handled in
the past month. You see, I can recall just a couple of
weeks ago when, you know, seven people decided they
wanted to go out and they left?
That's great! You know, they're going out,
they're leaving, people -- more people are getting
ready and then all of a sudden all this extra pressure
is put on us real quick and then the tanks start coming
I |
xv i 22
over and doing things and we can't figure this out,
because this is the day after seven people walk out and
more people were planning.
JIM: That's why I'm on the phone right now,
David. I
DAVID THIBODEAU: I mean people were outside
checking -- and the people were outside checking this
out --
JIM: David.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- you know, and all these
things were happening all of a sudden and pressure
being put on us and all of a sudden, you know,
everyone's like, hey, man, these guys are playing some
weird game. And everyone just checked out and said I'm
not going out there.
~ JIM: Okay, Dave, like I said. I'm in here,
I'mfbew, I'm starting to participate now. What we're
going to do is work through that and get, get by the --
all that, so let's try this situation again. You know,
come out, you know, and, and about at least ten people
can come out. You know, that will give us some sign or
give the commander some sign that you're making the
good faith effort to get this thing resolved, and
that's what I'm in here to do. And I'm really here to
kind of ensure that this stuff does take place.-
DAVID THIBODEAU: So who do you work for,
-! 23
Jim?
JIM: I'm from Austin.
DAVID THIBODEAU: But what, what - you know,
what - where do you -- what are you in?
JIM: I'm, I'm with the Austin Police
Department.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay .
JIM: Okay? And I'm a negotiator and like I
said, I'm an outside observer and this is my first time
to participate. Like I said, there are some concerns
that, you know, that things have slowed down and, you
know, it's just one step at a time and that first Btep~
is to get at least ten people out the door.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay, Jim. I'll tell you
what I'm going to do. Okay? I'm going to do the video
thing like you said for now.
I
fi JIM: Great .
DAVID THIBODEAU: And as soon as Dave or
STEVE is done with what they're doing, I'll have them
get back to you and you can --
JIM: And I'm really, you know, I'm really
anxious to get this thing resolved. I really am.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Oh, we all are.
JIM: You know? And, and I'm sure that David
is also.
DAVID THIBODEAU: -- believe me, we all are.
92 > 24
We all are. I mean, you know, I'm not lying to you
there. We're all anxious to get this resolved.
JIM: Okay. Well, what I'd really like to do
is, is, is to talk to David and get the situation
worked out so that we can start getting this flow
started again and let's get this thing worked out and
let's get it rolling.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Okay. So I'll have him get
back to you as soon as, as soon as possible. Okay,
Jim?
JIM: Great.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Thank you.
JIM: One hour.
DAVID THIBODEAU: Bye.
JIM: Bye.
Connection broken.!
I
- ' t 1- i R I
?
Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing - 9 rings.!
STEVE: Hello.
JIM: Is this Steven Schneider?
STEVE: Who am I speaking with?
JIM: Jim.
STEVE: Jim. You're new, Jim.
JIM: Yes, I am.
STEVE: Wow. There's machine gun fire going
[ ..
1SO I
~ 5 25
on outside here.
JIM: Machine gun fire.
STEVE: Yeah. Can't you hear that?
JIM: Not really.
STEVE: It, it's either that or Martians.
I'm not sure which yet. I haven't figured it out.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Jim, what's up? You must be about
number 17, I think.
JIM: Well, I'm -- I am, I must be, but like
I told David, I'm an outside observer and --
STEVE: You are?
JIM: -- that's right. That's right. I'm
not with either ATP or the FBI.
STEVE: You -- well, really, who are you
with? "
Q JIM: I'm with the Austin Police Department.
I'm a negotiator in from Austin.
STEVE: Really? Okay. Well, that's new.
JIM: One of the reasons that I'm here,
Steven, is to help resolve some of the issues as an
independent observer in the situation.
STEVE: All right.
JIM: And one of the things that, that --
have you listened to the news conference?
STEVE: No. Do you know I, I actually missed
O O
i! 26
about -- I had a friend of mine take down the last 10
minutes in notes, but I didn't realize what the time
was so I missed the first 20 minutes, but I definitely
wanted to hear what was said.
JIM: Okay. Okay. How's the situation with
this video of the children going at this time?
STEVE: Well, what I'm trying to do is get
them all ready. Still I'm having troubles with this
camera, but I'm still trying to get the thing working
with the battery pack that they sent in and I think I
can get it working, but I still am having little
problems with it. I don't know what it is, but I'm
getting most of the children together now to try to
find a place where there's enough light. It's kind of
a dark day and, you know, I was hoping for a lot more
light than what there is.
I
,3 JIM: Was David present at the time that the
news conference was being broadcast?
STEVE: No, he was -- he didn't get to hear
any of it.
JIM: He didn't hear any of it?
STEVE: No.
JIM: In other words, the information that
he'd be getting from that broadcast would be second-
hand?
STEVE: Right.
' 13|i
92 I I .92.__
JIM: Oh.
STEVE: Do you have any, any information
could share, because actually - you know, there's
usually someone that's listening but today I don't
what happened. I wasn't - looked at my watch and
says, has somebody got this down, because I looked27
YOU
know
I
t0
see. There was like ten minutes to 11:00 and I went
looking around, you know, and so I grabbed my radio,
handed it to a friend of mine, said take some notes,
because I still had to try to get this camera working
and going here.
JIM: Steven, what I've -- from what I
understand of this situation, it was the same drill as,
as the days previous to this. One of the things that
we'd like to discuss with you is our lack of contact
with David.
5; s'rsvs= All right.
JIM: And one of the things that we've
observed as outside observers is that there may be
pressure bring -- brought to bear on the commanders
here because evidently some of the upper folks are
somewhat concerned that because of David's lack of8 O!'l928
participation in these negotiations, that there may be
the same situation developing as it was down in Guyana
with Mr. Jim Jones. There seems to be some parallels
being drawn by some folks and there is a great deal of
Q, O
& 92- ! 28
pressure being brought down on these commanders to
resolve the situation.
STEVE: What, what are you saying when you're
talking about a comparison to Jim Jones?
JIM: Evidently they're referring to the
suicide situation. And one way that we could resolve
this is actually being able to speak with David on the
telephone to help, you know, get rid of some of these
-- hold on just a minute -- some of the concerns that
some of the folks are having about this.
STEVE: Well, this is -- honestly, Jim, this
is news to me about any concern about suicide or
anything like that because --
JIM: Well, it's, it's --
STEVE: -- it's nothing that's ever been --
~ JIM: Steven, that's one reason that I'm on
theéphone right now. Like I said, I'm here --
I STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: -- as an outside observer and --
STEVE: I see. D
JIM: -- and I -- we can see that there is --
STEVE: Now, Jim, these are people that --
JIM: -- being some parallels drawn.
STEVE: These are people that have a super
love for life, have a respect for life, humanity -- in
fact, I did get to talk with David this morning and he
i
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92..J -J 29
was saying -- he was talking about the very thing of
only we had an understanding with people. If they
could only see what we've always pursued, and that's
dissemination of information for their own welfare,
their own good, based upon something that everybody
says they believe in -~ God. But ultimately there's
going to be a test like in the days of Elijah where
there's information given out, it's either true or
false. If it's false, all that anyone's lost is a
little bit of their time.
JIM: Steven.
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: One of -- you
there is some genuine concern
commanders that the situation
are feeling that David may be
i
pressure.know, as I said before,
being expressed to these
may develop. Some people
cracking under some
STEVE: Oh, not in the least.
JIM: Psychologically. And that --
STEVE: Not, not even in the least.
JIM: -- we need to or there needs to be some
sort of action taken to avoid the situation.
STEVE: What, what do you mean? Make
yourself plain on that.
JIM: Let's, let's try to resolve this thing.
Let's -- they're wanting people to be released.
4'
92
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STEVE: Well, I realize that, Jim, but you
see we believe in God first. I mean that seems to be
the whole wrench in the system and we see very clearly
what has become of this government. We've seen what
has become of the judicial system. I hear the
statements made by David Troy like I did yesterday. I
would have liked to have heard what he said today. I'm
sure he spewed out more lies. If the man could read
Psalms 36 and 52 he might see something about himself
there.
JIM: Well, like I said, some of the dynamics
of this situation are somewhat similar to the - that
situation that took place in Guyana.
STEVE: It bothers -- it -- bothers me when a
man of his position and having the access that he has
can say such things without even -- if - unless the
i
man has here when it happened and was an eyewitness and
observed, I don't see how the man has a right to really
say anything. I was the one that had to duck and
almost lost my life and I, and I had no weapons. I've
never been into them. I'm talking in a room to someone
and, I mean, I -- it wasn't a happy thing at all. They
asked me last night if certain individuals were, were
dead finally. You know, we've been hesitant to say a
few things for reasons they should be able to figure
out. But they killed a number of innocent people
92.
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laying on their beds. Seriously. When, when I heard
this -- l
JIM: How many innocent people are you
talking about, Steven?
STEVE: Well, they, they gave a list to me
and I didn't really respond, because if -- it doesn't
seem like it's time yet. I need to get the okay from
those people that are related or those that, you know,
I'm trying to respect their wishes.
JIM: I'm not really looking for any names
right now, but a number would help me resolve some --
STEVE: Well, we'll -- Jim, we'll give you
that. I need to talk to a few people here yet today,
which I haven't had opportunity to do yet and I, I did
tell a person last night, I believe his name was Rick,
that I would try to get back to them and give them some
I
moreiinformation.
JIM: That's fine, but when would this be?
STEVE: A little bit later. I still haven't
had opportunity still. I wanted to talk with a couple
of these people here that actually were to some degree
aware of what was happening, which I wasn't so --
JIM: Steven, one thing that I would really
like to do to help dispel some of the fears that the
command staff's having in reference to this situation
is I, I really do need to speak with David and, you
I
92..
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rd 32
know, and converse with him over this situation.
STEVE: Are you going to be at the normal .
number that I dial?
JIM: Yes, I will be.
STEVE: How long will you be there, because
I'm -- I will try to do that.
JIM: Probably till about 6:00, 6:30.
STEVE: Okay. Well, I'll do all I can.
JIM: If you can get back with me in
approximately an hour so that we can get this going.
STEVE: I will try to. I really will.
JIM: Do that .
STEVE: Is there anything else you'd like to
bring up or -- did you get to hear the press conference
then?
'~ JIM: Not really.
0
_; STEVE: Okay. '
JIM: What this video that you're going to
do, do you think you can have that prepared in that --
within this next hour?
STEVE: Well, I'm trying to - that's what
I'm trying to do right now is get it all together and I
was having difficulty with the camera. I still don't
have it totally taken care of. I'm trying to get this
pack working. I don't know if it's the pack or it's
the camera or what. Someone dropped it and I'm a
V
L
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K¢_¢I I 92 ! 33
little concerned, so I still think I can get it going,
but so far I haven't been able to.
JIM: Steven, I saw the format that you used
in the last video tape that you sent out of your house
there.
swam: Right .
JIM: What I'd like to see is probably the
same format used, as far as being able to put this
thing together with David and the children. You seem
to be a rather good cameraman. You're able to keep
everything together.
STEVE: Well, I'm less than an amateur,
but --
JIM: Hey, you've done well, but the same
format would, would be most appropriate. That way I
could dispel their fears --
I
M} STEVE: Well, see, what I did before and
where I did it before is not able -- I'm not able now
because of the lack of electricity.
JIM: Uh-huh.
STEVE: So I have to try to find a spot
somewhere where there's enough light coming through one
of the windows.
JIM: I understand that.
STEVE: Yeah, and that's where the difficulty
lies.
L
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.92 y ,~# ~' 34
JIM: What do you have? A twolux camera?
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM: What lux camera do you have?
STEVE: Well, it's a, it's a Canon A-1. It's
a high 8 is what it is.
JIM: Is it a low-light camera? Is it a one-
lux camera? What do you have there, Steven?
STEVE: I am not certain about, you know,
what -- when it comes to light or the sensitivity of
it.
JIM: All right. Well, I'll tell you what.
You put that together, you get your information
together on the video, and like I said, the same format
would be appreciated so that we could observe the thing
here and I could also get that information back to the
commanders on that and I really do need to speak with
i
David and to dispel anything, you know, any fears that
may be developing. The commanders would like us to
talk at a face-toface meeting and -- so if you can
call me back in an hour and let's get things put
together.
STEVE: Are you talking about yourself and
me?
JIM: You bet. Well, either one of the
negotiators here, you, and David and one of the reasons
that we would like you and David out there is so that
L
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k9 ..l:I
9292" 35
you and some of the negotiators on this team can work
out some of the problems that we're having here and
help resolve some of these issues that you have in this
faceto-face meeting. You know, your -- you were
wanting a forum for, you know, setting down with these
negotiators and talking face-to-face and fine, let's
arrange this. Let's get this thing going.
STEVE: I was wanting? Those were -- the
things I've wanted are -- have been told to me that
they were impossible. That they weren't a
consideration. Those things --
JIM: As, as I said, I'm here as an outside
observer and I need to know that --
STEVE: Those are suggested by the other
side, by the way, the things that you're saying that I
wantedw
J; JIM: Well, that, that's fine, but see I need
to -- it's, it's one reason that I'm here to speak with
you and to speak with David. I would like to know what
both sides --
STEVE: Are you sure you're not an FBI agent?
JIM: No, I'm not.
STEVE: You aren't. Okay.
JIM: No, I'm not. I don't work for the
Federal Government.
STEVE: All right.
92
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JIM: The situation -- the face-to-face
situation or meeting would be set up in the same manner
as it had been before between you and Mr. Sage.
STEVE: That wouldn't be acceptable.
JIM: It would be or would not be?
STEVE: It wouldn't be.
JIM: Would not be.
STEVE: No.
JIM: Why is that?
STEVE: Like I said, if I would do something
like that, I would meet a person halfway, there would
be -- Bradleys would be backed off quite a distance
this time, and we'd both be right out in the open.
JIM: I'll tell you what. What we'll try to
do is get the chief negotiator into this situation and
into the meeting with you and David and that way you
caniéet down and discuss these issues and get this
situation resolved peacefully.
STEVE: Well, see, I haven't even gotten to
speak to David about such a thing in the first place.
I don't see physically how he could ever -- that could
even happen on the --
JIM: That's fine, Steven. So why don't you
go speak to David now and address this issue with him
and call me back in one hour so that we can get this
meeting arranged and set up and ready to go? We can
P
t.
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92 _ I92" 37
work out the logistics of the whole thing.
STEVE: I'll talk to him about it.
JIM: Why -- you do that. You talk to him
about it.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: All right. Give me a call back in one
hour.
STEVE: I might be a little longer.
JIM: Right.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
Connection broken.!
Q t i i i
Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing -- 4 rings.!
STEVE: Hello.
~ GEORGE: Yeah. STEVE?
¬
_3 STEVE: Yeah.
i GEORGE: '¢h:. is George.
STEVE: Georgei? How are you doing, George?
GEORGE: I'm doing well. How are you doing,
STEVE?
STEVE: Okay. And who are you with, George.
GEORGE: I'm with the FBI. I'm one of the,
one of the negotiating team.
STEVE: Okay. I'm still trying to get some
things done here so I was kind of surprised that the
Q-
SQ
0
92
5Q O
~ as
phone rang already. What, what can I do now?
GEORGE: Okay. Well, the reason I'm calling
is I need to pass something on to you.
STEVE: All right.
GEORGE: As you know, no one has come out of
there since Wednesday.
STEVE: Okay.
GEORGE: Now, people out here are concerned
and I'm going to pass the same kind of demand upon you
that, that you need to go back to the people there and
if we don't get at least 10 people out by 12:50, then
the, then the people out here are going to take some
action. You understand that, Steve?
STEVE: Yeah. I'm listening to you.
GEORGE: Now, that's not necessarily our idea
from negotiator's point of view.
I
3 STEVE: Uh-huh.
GEORGE: And that's, that's another thing you
need to, to think about.
STEVE: All right.
GEORGE: See, you need to, to look at this
from, from the point of view of a person outside here
overall responsible for the safety of everybody.
STEVE: Um-hum.
GEORGE: And we need to be moving along. The
problem is that we're not making any progress. Can,
92
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92f.
. ___, _! 39
can you appreciate that?
STEVE: Well, if you have listened to any of
the tapes that have been taped and the conversations
I've had -- now, like last night I was on the phone for
probably about three hours without even getting off. I
talked to, I believe it was Rick and Tony and Linda. I
can't remember who all. John-5 or -4. I'm starting to
lose track of even all the new names. But we spent a
lot of times trying to figure out some ways to getting
this thing all going again and this morning I've
already started talking to a number of people and
trying to see what we can get working here.
GEORGE: But, but you have to agree that,
that we're not making any progress.
STEVE: Oh, I definitely agree and then, of
course, you've probably heard the reasons why I see
what's happened.
A GEORGE: But, but --
STEVE: But people did listen to me; I had
some influence and it's tot -- almost totally eroded.
GEORGE: But, but we need to start over again
then. Okay?
STEVE: That's --
GEORGE: That's, that's -- the point is --
STEVE: Well, see -- yeah, exactly. That's
why --
'-
92
r
l
L0'
~ ~" 40
GEORGE: This -- we are now talking in time,
okay?
STEVE: No, no, that's --
GEORGE: We can start from this point
forward, then, then we need to, to come to an
agreement --
STEVE: Well, that's why I wrote down these
items that we have spoke about. The.tape, about seven
-- a dialogue with some theologians, meeting with the
attorney, meeting with a negotiator. There was a
number of different items.
GEORGE: But, but we haven't made any
progress in any of those things.
STEVE: Well, that's what we're looking at
right now. In fact, I'm trying to get a chance or an
opportunity not only to get this camera and the film
doneg but also to talk with David about what he's got
in mind, what he needs to do. These other people, I
talk to them all the time. All the time.
GEORGE: Well, what's the feeling then.
STEVE: Well, that's why, you know, if
there's some new negotiators or anybody else or -- in
fact, any of your team that would like to talk with any
or all these people, I mean, they would do that, but
what they're telling me is the things that you guys
don't want to hear in the first place, so it's like
O I =- -J 41
beating, like you people say, on a dead horse. I'm
talking about the living sin incident, I'm talking
about when David had sent out the seven and then things
-- the commanders did what they did. That was the
greatest insult. All of a sudden, he's not been that
responsive since.
GEORGE: Yeah, but, but, Steve. We got to
start now, okay? That's -- look at it from that
perspective.
STEVE: Well, no. I, I am, you know, and
the, the thing that's hard a lot of time is when I'm
talking to people, you know, of course you've got these
weird sounds going on here morning, noon --
GEORGE: That's right.
STEVE: -- and night and --
GEORGE: That's right.
pg STEVE: Well, as long as you do that you're
actually getting these people to bury themselves in the
whole all the more. When you get guys like David Troy
on mouthing out his lies, all the more they don't want
to come out, so it makes my job -- I'm telling you,
instead of making it easy for me to communicate and
make things plain and simple and offer something like
you people are offering as negotiators, there's
virtually no effect with --
GEORGE: Well, well, you want to change then
L
L
KO, Q E
-I -4" 42
to, to try to, to make an arrangement for a face-to-
face with you and David?
STEVE: Well, that -- you know, as I told all
these guys, that's fine, but what - I, I always have
been willing to do about anything I can do and what I'm
hoping for right now, I'm just waiting for a few
moments here. He's actually up and talking to some
people, so I was hoping to get in there myself and
spend some time with him.
csoncm Okay. Well --
STEVE: I, I don't think he -- I think he's
probably feeling okay today from what it seems like, so
-- which I kind of expected was going to happen,
because he's been kind of like every time he gets up or
attempts to do that, he gets sick for a few days and
then he.gets headaches and, and so far today he seems
to he okay, so I'm hoping that, you know, it was even
suggested that he come out and meet with someone, but I
don't know if he could ever make it that far away.
GEORGE: You mean, you mean from a physical
point of view?
STEVE: Yeah, even a physical point of view,
you know, I mean in my mind it's - I'm always thinking
of just about any and all avenues myself.
GEORGE: Can, can -- could you help him out?
I mean, physically help him out?
Q
5
§
Q
g0, or
I- ~ 43
STEVE: Well, I mean, I've actually thought
about something like that, but I -- it's, you know,
it's quite a - because of what they've done to the --
it's like deep furrows, it really is. I mean I don't
-- even myself, I'm able to walk and --
GEORGE: Well, let's -- well, let's think
about this for a minute, okay?
STEVE: All right.
GEORGE: If, if -- assuming that, that you
and David agree to come out, to do a face-to-face,
then, then let's talk about the, the physical problems
of, of moving from, from the building to wherever you
feel -- you're going to feel comfortable. How, how can
we -- -
STEVE: Well, see, what I need to do, George,
is actually I want -- I do want to talk to him and, in
facté I was just getting ready to do that when the
1
phone rang. "
GEORGE: But you may have to come up with,
with a plan or, or something -- a suggestion for him
to --
STEVE: Well, see, but it wouldn't matter
because, you know, he's his own person like all these
individuals are and I don't want to be wasting your
time if in the first place he wouldn't be going out
there. If he chooses to, then I'm going to ask him,
K
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92.0, 0 J
44
well, how, how far can you walk, what are you able to
do, because I'm not sure. Only he would know that and,
you know, it'll help me to know just what his
capabilities are now, because of his physical
condition. So what I really would like to do now
myself is get in there and talk with him and run by a
number of issues that have been raised since last
night.
GEORGE: Okay. All right. But, but remember
this, remember this 10 or more people. I need to pass
that on to you and that's, that's -- you could probably
plan on, on things --
STEVE: You know what's hard, what's hard is
I spend so much -- honest, George, if you, if you note
how much time I spend on the phone and then I'm asked
to do all these things and get some things done, all of
a sudden I -- here I'm trying to get this crazy camera
15
working, which was dropped on the floor, and I was
talking to a couple of people at the same time, doing
two or three things at the same time. Then, you know,
the phone keeps ringing so I've got to put everything
down. I come back here and now an ultimatum is given
for a specific time period, minutes away. Not an hour.
GEORGE: Steve, I, I -- you're not in an easy
position, but you're --
STEVE: Never have been, have I?
P
92
Q
L
92GEORGE:
the link. You're
responsibility.
STEVE:.4
I
,- 45
-- you're the, you're the, you're
the link. You've got a lot of
It's called pressure to the place of
having headaches from it.
GEORGE: Sure. Sure. I understand, but, but
there's no, there's no other way -- it's the only game
here. It's the only game in town. You've got to keep,
you got to keep doing it.
STEVE:Well, I have been. I haven't shirked
from it. The only thing is, I've asked these guys,
like when they've
last night, three
you know, finally
get at least four
the most I've had,.
5 GEORGE:
J}got me up till, you know talking like
hours, two in the morning whatever,
one needs to get some rest -- I did
hours of sleep last night. That's
in quite a while.
Well, David needs to take some of
the responsibility'from you then.
STEVE: Well, he does -- I'll tell you the
truth. He wants to. He wants to. I was talking to
him, he's very aggravated about his physical condition.
He's annoyed by it, because he's not used to -- all his
life, basically, he's been in pretty good condition,
and he's not a happy camper right now because of the
wound and, and his body the way it's responding to it.
He's not a -- like I told these guys, he's never --
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he's not a person that's had headaches. He's never
really had, you know, the -- a lot of little problems
like a lot of people might have, so for him it's a new
experience.
GEORGE: Well, how about have him come into~
the phone then. That's -- that shouldn't be a problem.
STEVE: Well, that's what I was going --
End of Tape #179!
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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #180
2/2a/93
12=os P.M. - z=19 P.M.
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Tape 180!
GEORGE: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Actually, I -- what I would
like to do even at the very moment that I'm talking
with you.
GEORGE: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, I'll try to call you
back here as soon as I can get to him, talk to him, and
see what can be worked out here and --
GEORGE: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and the conditions out
there though, you know, if I mean you, you saw how it
was ripped and tore up. It's, it's, it's a rough thing
to even walk through. I mean, for me even, I mean,
you'd have to have some boots on up to your knees and
-- so,Ibut I'll -- we'll try to work that out and see
iwhatgcan be done. I
GEORGE: 'Good. I just need to reiterate
about the, the 12:50 and, and the safety rules again.
They've asked me to do that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't quite understand
why --I mean, you know, they, they say on one hand I'm
an intelligent person. On the other hand, they feel
they've got to say -- it --
GEORGE: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- it seems redundant
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after a while.
GEORGE: Put yourself in the position of
somebody out here responsible.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, they should actually do
the reverse, because, I mean, we've not made aggressive
moves, but as you know, they have done nothing but
that. So, you know, it's a foolish thing to even bring
up really unless, you know, they really have some plans
that they want to do something. Well, who am I to stop
them in the first place. Isn't that true, George?
GEORGE: Well, you, you can do something to
stop them --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, have I not been
trying? Have I not done everything I can short of
physical brute force, which is not in my capability nor
1.is it the -- _
'? GEORGE: No, no, no -- that's -- I'm talking
about resolving, I'm talking about resolving --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's what I'm talking
about also. I mean that's the only thing I can do.
GEORGE: That, that, that's what, that's what
has to happen here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So they want to reiterate,
don't stand in windows pointing guns --
GEORGE: Right .
.STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- at the men.
»_ V pp! 4
GEORGE: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Don't walk out with guns.
GEORGE: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Don't walk out toward a
Bradley or toward the men, and if so doing if they
start verbally communicating with you, you're to do
what they say --
GEORGE: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- as I recall.
GEORGE: Right. And, and, and if you -- and
if people do decide to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: To paraphrase.
GEORGE: The other thing you remember, if
people do decide to come out, you need to let us know
that ahead of time so we can make sure that they're --
safe. ~
§ srsva SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what I did
even the other day when the, the individual walked out
to empty the water and --
GEORGE: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the mishap there took
place. -
GEORGE: Okay. Well, you understand that
then.
STEVE SCHEIDER: Okay.
GEORGE: All right.
92, !
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll talk to you later
GEORGE: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
GEORGE: Bye.
Connection broken.!
Remainder of recording of Tape 180 distorted and
unclear and could not be transcribed.!
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U.S. DEPARTMNT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #181
3/28/93
PQMQ - POMO
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92_, _>
Tape 181!
GEORGE:
STEVE:
GEORGE:
STEVE:
GEORGE:
Pause!
DAVID:
GEORGE:
DKVID:Hello?
Hello, George?
Yeah. Steve
Okay. David s right here
Okay. Good
Hello.
David?
Um-hum.
GEORGE: How are you?
DAVID: Very, very tired.
GEORGE: You're not the only one.
DAVID: What can we do for you, George?
GEORGE: Well, I got a couple things that we
1.
can we can start out with. Do you -- have you heard
of; guy named DeGuerin, a lawyer?
DAVID: io. No, I haven't. DeGuerin, I
don't, I don't know anybody by that name.
GEORGE: He is a pretty prominent guy in this
area and, and out of, actually out of the Houston area.
And our understanding is that he is very interested in
talking to you privately in regards to legal
representation. That's - that would be a kind of a
telephone call that we would be willing to, to arrange
for you and he to talk so that you can get a kind of a
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feel for, for where your legal options, possibilities
are. So I'd like you to think about that. How does
that --
DAVID: Well --
GEORGE: -- how does that strike you off, off
the bat?
DAVID: Well, it's --
GEORGE: Obviously he'd have to be somebody
that, that you would trust and, and understand that
that's a private conversation between you and he.
DAVID: Who is -- let's see here. My mother
had, mother had hired an attorney if I'm not mistaken.
What, what was his name, do you know?
GEORGE: That's, that's the same guy.
DAVID: Oh, it is. I
GEORGE: Yes.
DAVID: Okay. Okay, well, I mean you know --
GEORGE: I'm not from this, this part, but
they tell me he's a very prominent attorney in this, in
this part of the country.
DAVID: Yeah. I'm, I'm willing -- I'll talk
to anybody, you know. It's --
GEORGE: Okay, well, we can, we can try to
arrange that. What's the, what's the best time to do
that? Do you feel better at any particular time of the
day or to be up for something like that? ,
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DAVID: Well, we just did this tape. And I
don't know. For some reason it's kind of like to, you
know, if I have to -- talking seems to be, I don't
know, an energetic thing or something right now for
some reason.
GEORGE: Taking some energy from you you
mean?
DAVID: Yeah, no. It's just like I've got --
I don't know, just no go. I mean I, I mean I'm very,
I'm coherent. I can -- I hear all the noise.
Laughing.! And you know, no, no one here doesn't.
GEORGE: Hard not to.
DAVID: I don't know. I just kind of like I
need some iron or something. I don't know.
GEORGE: You need some what?
" DAVID: Some iron or something I guess. I
I
dont know.
GEORGE: You mean as a --
DAVID: The --
GEORGE: -- a vitamin iron you mean?
DAVID: Yeah, I guess. I don't -- you know,
I lost over 3, over 3, maybe 3-1/2 pints of blood. And
so we have been trying to -- oh, boy, there's a new
one. Video arcadia sic!. What was I talking about?
Let's see.
GEORGE: You were talking about some iron.
' 13192 >
DAVID: Yeah. Yeah, we was talking about
some iron and we was trying to build it up with, you5
know, the vegetables and stuff. Because most all the
vegetables rotted. Electricity went out, you know.
That stuff has rotted.
GEORGE: Is that, is that wound getting
worst?
DAVID: Well, the front the, the scab fell
off of the back. I don't know if the back got kind of
tender or something. It's, it's -- I don't know.
It's -- I guess it's just kind of hoochie sic! or
something, you know. We've been putting peroxide and
stuff on it. It's -- I don't know. Just feel, just
feel like, you know, I want to go to sleep.
GEORGE: Well, except that's not going to
make anything better.
0'
3 DAVID: I'm sorry.
understand what you were --
GEORGE: I, I don't
trying to resolve the way you
some help for, or whatever is
think about this rather than,What? I didn't
think -- I think kind
feel and, and getting
the better way to, to
than kind of drifting
into sleep. It's not -- things aren't going to get
better if you do that, David.
DAVID: Oh, I know it.of
off
GEORGE: We got to, we got to, you know, put
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out a little energy now and you may feel, feel better
later on if in terms of resolving something.
DAVID: Like I said, I've been trying to keep
away from the people here.
GEORGE: Why?
DAVID: So they can have a chance to look
back over the last few years and see if what I've been
teaching them is true. A
GEORGE: Well --
DAVID: You know, I know where I'm coming
from. I know where I've come from. I know what my
foundation is. And you know, we've tried to offer in
every respect two different ways to show our, our
genuineness. You know, we, we sent, we sent people
out. You know, and every time the things seem to be
1.commpnicative in a proper and fair manner, all of a
sudden, you know, these generals or whatever have been
doing all these haranguements sic!. And it just
doesn't, just doesn't make the people feel that
trustworthy in regards to the position that you all are
coming from.
And so they have two options. They, they
trust in God. And they would love to trust in God and
the nation God's blessed, but it just seems like the
nation is losing its credibility.
GEORGE: Yeah, but what --
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DAVID: And --
GEORGE= -- what's the alternative? I mean
this is the only country we have. It's the only system
we have.
DAVID: well, in the light of, in the light
of the seals which, you know, John Cox and people don't
want to hear about. So I guess I should be quiet about
that.
GEORGE: That's probably, that's probably
best at this point. Because it's, it's, you know,
you're going to go over stuff that's been gone over
before and hasn't, hasn't led to anything positive.
And if -- what we need to do now about is think about
positive things. And, and no one, no one is here --
your beliefs and the beliefs of those people in there
are not going to change once you come out. That's,
thaé's going to remain constant.
DAVID: hell --
GEORGE: All you're, all you're doing now is,
is facing up to what, what the legal system requires.
And that's why --
DAVID: Well --
GEORGE: -- that's why probably talking to
the lawyer is the next logical step toward, toward
resolving that part of the problem. You got -- you
know, we're not, we're not interested in -- it's not
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that we're not interested. But we don't have the --
we're not in the jurisdiction of the, of the religious
beliefs. We're in the jurisdiction of dealing in the
real world.
DAVID: Like I told them, I said my religious
beliefs is a political matter. And it is a real world.
And that's --
GEORGE: Well, well, how do you/address that
then? You got to, you got to get in the only system
you're in. There is --
- DAVID: Well --
GEORGE: -- no other way to do that.
DAVID: That's, that's again like I say your
statements are many and broad and diversified. But my
statement stays consistent. I've been told to wait.
And I'm waiting. And don't think that there's not a
day3that doesn't pass by that I wouldn't like to crawl
out of this bed, and sometimes a good night's sleep in
general seems pretty tempting, you know.
I've been a good citizen in this nation for
33 years. You can check my record. You can check the
record of just about everybody that's come out of here.
And this stuff about methamphetamines. You
all guys, you all really are sick. Absolutely sick.
You know, all my life I have been against drugs, pot,
dope. It's just vulgar. Of any insult that you all
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could have insulted me with that -- if, if you could
have said anything that could have gotten my gills you
could have -- that associating me to unreal carnal
drugs, stimulants.
I tell you what. I, I may drink a Coca-Cola
every once in a while or maybe a Dr. Pepper and that's
about, that, that is the farthest I get to any kind of
pick-me-up. I don't even drink coffee. You know.
Maybe smoke a cigarette, you know.
GEORGE: Well, here again --
DAVID: And that's - and you know. If
there's any, any complaint I have about anything else
said that, that thing about methamphetamines that's,
that's sick.
GEORGE: Well, maybe, maybe your complaints
is valid. And that -- maybe that's the kind of
thing --
DAVID: AIt's sick.
GEORGE: -- you need to talk to the lawyer
about. And if it's not a -- if it's not serious as a
consideration then let's drop it and go forward. If it
was, if it was a mistake to make that accusation it was
a mistake.
DAVID: And then, and then they, they said
the helicopters caught this -- oh, my God. I mean the,
the lies -- why, why brothers do you all have to, to
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tell people in the world things like that?
I mean you know, the, the first is bad
enough, you know. Just to tell them we're a cult and
that we're not stable in our minds that's, that's good
enough. People will believe you just by saying that.
But talking about child abuse and talking about drugs.
I mean get, get real. You can't, you can't have the
kind of children that I have and be doing drugs.
You can't, you can't have the kind of
people -- our girls, our women don't even expose their,
their - they wear long shirts over their, their pants.
We, we don't exploit ourselves. We, we don't, we don't
make up. We don't wear tons of jewelry.
You know, people, people know us in this
town. And, and you know, you look in people's eyes.
Look in their eyes. You know, take a blood test from,
from Kevin or Brad or them. See what kind of drugs
they've got. '-
Now it's true, you know. Kevin is a brother
that I mean -- excuse me. Brad's a brother that, you
know, used to be an alcoholic. I, I pulled a lot of
these people out of bars and out of the wild life, you
know?
GEORGE: Well, maybe that's where some of
that information comes from then. I, I don't know
personally. And I don't, I don't think it's worthwhile
"l xl
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for us to kind of go over that. That's -- if it's, if
it's not a serious real problem then, then I don't
think you ought to treat it that way. You need to talk
to the lawyer, get a handle on, on what your real
problems are, and then get a handle on how you're going
to resolve them.
DAVID:
listen to him. I
anyway.
GEORGE:
DAVID:
GEORGE:
DAVID:
talking with?
GEORGE:
DAVID:I
donét you? Means
GEORGE:
DAVID:Tell him to give us a call. I'll
got a couple of questions for him
Okay.
Regards to my mother.
Okay. I don't know how, how --
And who's this anyway? Who am I
My, my first name is George.
George. You know what George means,
farmer.
Farmer and -- yeah.
Yeah, right. Yeah, we used to have a
friend named George. Yeah. Still --
GEORGE:
DAVID:
GEORGE:What about.
-- a lovely guy.
David, what about talking to
somebody not on the phone? I
DAVID: Talking to some -- I'm sorry. What
did you say? I --
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GEORGE: What about --
DAVID: -- I was listening between you and a
bird out here crying out the window.
GEORGE: What's your feeling about, about
doing a -- talking to somebody face-to-face not through
the, through the telephone line so you could get a
chance to --
DAVID: Tell them to come on in.
GEORGE: Well, we, we don't --
DAVID: We got, we got --
GEORGE: -- we're not -- we can't come in.
It would have to be in some, some kind of a --
DAVID: Well, you guys can trust --
GEORGE: -- neutral spot outside.
DAVID: You know, have we, have we fired any
missiles at you yet? I mean your tanks are right by
the;%oors, you know. Have we put any bombs on you?
Have we hit you with any machine guns or nothing yet?
No.
You know, people come here knocking on that
door at nighttime, hollering in the daytime. You know,
who is, you know. You know, yeah, we thought, we
thought they were secret agents. I mean you know, but
hey, I --
GEORGE: Well, David, that --
DAVID: -- I've allowed agents to come in
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here before anyway, you know.
GEORGE: A negotiator is not, not going to go
inside. So, so if, if --
DAVID: Well, why? I mean we've come out
there. We've talked to you all before. To be honest
with you, I, you know, the first, first few days or, I
don't know, how long have we been here, Steve? '
Steve's voice in background not discernible.! Four
weeks?
GEORGE: Yeah.
DAVID: Seems like 5 days.
GEORGE: Think it, I think it's 4 weeks
today.
DAVID: Oh, man. Time flies when you're
having fun. I don't know. It's just --
GEORGE: It's no, it's no fun.
*3 DAVID: when I was talking to John Cox for a
few days there, you know, I, I felt good. I was, you
know, good -- you know, I limp. I mean I, I can't put
much weight on my left side where I was hit. But you
know. Then all of a sudden I just, I don't know. I
just - I guess, I guess the old body's catching up to
me or something and telling me to, you know, lay off a
bit. Let it -- I don't know what it's doing.
GEORGE: What, what have you been doing? You
been taking it easy?
92__,- Us 14
DAVID: Oh, I guess. I mean in my dreams I'm
doing a lot of running. In my dreams I'm doing a lot
of activity. But I dream about birds and about
helicopters and about noises --
GEORGE: Somehow I can, I can understand
that.
DAVID: And I wake up and you know what?
It's real. u
GEORGE: Yeah.
DAVID: Laughing.! It's real. Now we just
did a video and I set up and I tried to, you know, my
little babies, I tried to give a good rapport to, you
know, you know, talk, talk happy, you know, and stuff
to them, you know. Tell them to smile and the, the
battery or something the, the battery inside of it
started going haywire.
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correct that, that problem. Are you -- did they -- did
you get on the video?
DAVID: No, I think my feet may be in it.
GEORGE: There's a, there's a thought here
that, that maybe that if you can get the, the video
camera to pick up your wound, then maybe we can get a
doctor to give us some analysis about the condition.
DAVID: You all have any say antibiotic or --
GEORGE: There's, there's medical help out
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here.
DAVID: Well, like I said it, you know, soon
as, soon as my Father tells me to get up and go I'm,
I'm out. You know. I don't plan on dying here.- I
don't -- 33 is too young to die, my friend.
GEORGE: I agree.
DAVID: You know, I'm just a kid. Steve,
he's 43 and he's just a kid too. Now Raymond, he's 73
and he's jumping around -- anyway. Whatever happened
to all the old ladies and stuff?
GEORGE: You mean the people that came out?
Most of them are in, are in what they call halfway
houses. They're, they're kind of loosely supervised.
DAVID: You know, those, those ladies aren't
involved in anything. They're --
" GEORGE: Here again that's --
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3 DAVID: They've been --
GEORGE: The best person to probably talk to
that about probably give you, you know, the straight
scoop on that is, is that lawyer if you want to talk to
him.
DAVID: Yeah. Hey, could you, could you put
some Joe Satriani phonetic sp.! on the tape or
something sometime?
GEORGE: Laughing.! I'll, I'll put, I'll
mark that down in the request list.
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DAVID: Hey, God bless you, George.
GEORGE: What I -- another idea that I've
been asked to, to explore with you is this idea of a
forum with, with some religious theologians. Have,
have -- has that been raised before?
DAVID: Oh, you know, George, let me be
honest with you. Please bear with me just a second.
Straight across the table. I mean I love every one of
you guys that talk to me, all right? I know you don't
understand where I'm coming from. I know it's hard to
understand. -
But in 1985 when I came back from Israel, I
came back, I started going to colleges. Started going
to colleges and going to theology departments. And I
started, started addressing the issues in regards to,
you know, the final book of the Bible, the Revelation,
Rejelation of Jesus Christ. The one that God gave to
him. And I talked to theologians -- remember Dr. --
you ever heard of Dr. Walter Martin out in Southern
California, San Diego?
GEORGE: Can't say that I have.
DAVID: He was, he was one of the top in the
nation, you know. He's with Frances Schaefer phonetic
sp.! and a lot of people. You know they, these are the
top conservatives of, you know, Baptist, Church of
Christ, you know, the National Alliance of Churches,
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you know. Bible indiscernible!.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: And he's, he's like Dr. Dobbs
phonetic sp.! and a lot of guys. His, his expertise
is cults and, you know, Satan groups. And you know,
he, he gets people out of cults and all that kind of
stuff. He's
locked hornssupposed to be pretty sharp. And we y
with him and some of his, you know, some
of his students, top students.
And it's kind of like a baseball game, you
know? Old Babe Ruth was hard to beat in his day,
wasn't he? You know?
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: And it's just like every person
whether it be a rabbi or doctorate of degree or doctor
of divinity or theologian. What I teach is really,
Geoége, so simple that they just'can't deny the nose on
their face. I mean you know.
And -- but the thing that's, the thing that's
intimidating
is true that
mysteries of
be finished,about what I teach, George, is that if it
the seven seals of Revelation are
God and for when there's time no longer to
if it's true that Christ makes the
statement in the last chapter that he says behold, I
come. My reward is with me. God gave him a book.
And if it's true that this mystery is
92 M!18
finished, to be finished as God declared to the
prophets, then you know, why they just get so upset
when I just go one after the other through the
prophetic writings and just clearly lay out this
message that God has ordained for men in the latter
days to receive to bring all these religions into
unity. I mean there's only --
GEORGE: Who, who are you talking about
getting upset?
DAVID: Oh, the, the leaders
The reason why they get upset, George,of the churches.
is because if
I'm teaching these seven seals very thoroughly, that
means that I am Christ as the prophecy
And like I've told them over
I said, I say brothers, the problem we
me showing you the seals. The problem
being shown the seals the keys of your
belong to me. I mean you tell
built this church for Christ.teaches.
and over again,
have here is not
is, is by you
institutions
the world that you've
You tell the world that
you're taking these tides and offerings for Christ.
And right now the way it is is that you can't afford to
give up your position. Because once you give these
institutions over to me, I'm supposed to deliver the
goods, right? I'm supposed to teach them for right
seven seals.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
g 1.
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I'm going to turn these places into
parks. Because the example of 2,000 years ago was
meant for every g eneration thereafter. And there's
just been too much money and too much hierarchy and too
much position and too much authority given into the
hands of men who don't really even know what they're
talking about.
GEORGE:
though that, that
do with this, and
DAVID:
GEORGE:
these people.
DAVID:
it does. Let me,David, the thing you got to remember
your problem with us has nothing to
you can continue to go on --
Well --
-- teaching and, and talking to
George, really it, it, George, really
let me tell you how this started,
okay? ~You see, in 1960, the United States of America
forithe first tim e elected a Roman Catholic president.
Now don't get me wrong. I respect Kennedy very highly.
But it goes back
1929.
GEORGE:
I cut you off on
DAVID:
GEORGE:
DAVID:
GEORGE:further than that. It goes back to
David, are you going to get upset if
this?
No, that's all right. I'm --
Because --
-- I'm accustomed to that.
Because I think that's what's been
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going on for the last 4 weeks, and we haven't gotten
anywhere with --
DAVID: Hey, wait a minute. Yes, we have.
We've gotten a long ways. We really have.
GEORGE: Where have we gotten?
DAVID: Remember, I'm the one that initiated
the children coming out. '
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: Remember that --
GEORGE: But --
DAVID: -- where we last, where we last left
off --
GEORGE: But we're at an impasse now, right?
,DAVID: Well, wait a minute. Where we last
left off was I was talking with John Cox.
" GEORGE: Um-hum.
I
"g DAVID: And I told him and I showed him that
in Matthew 24 regarding to the coming of the Son of man
whereas of the carcass is the eagles be gathered
together. I showed him from the book where that is in
the prophecies.
And people are mocking me saying that we're
waiting on the fifth seal which is the souls under the
altar that were slain for the word of God and for the
testimony which they held. And John Cox kept saying,
you know, we don't want that to happen. You know, we
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don't want, we don't want anybody else killed.
And I said that's exactly what I want, John.
I said the prophecies are not written in.the Bible for
wicked men to fulfill them. The prophecies are written
in the Scriptures so men can avoid putting themselves
in a position to do what God says the wicked will be
doing. I mean that's why like in Psalms 2 when I, when
I showed John Cox -- oh, boy. This one gets to me
good. You hear that, George?
GEORGE: Yeah, I hear it.
DAVID: Rah, rah mimicking noises!.
GEORGE: Well, that's, that's the stuff that
it - that's the stuff that we got to deal with though
is the -- 1
DAVID: Yeah - -
" GEORGE: -- the real world part of the --
I
j DAVID: when I come out, you all probably
going to put me in jail and put me in a jail that's
going to have a speaker. And you're all going to still
keep playing this stuff, aren't you?
GEORGE: You, you know better than that.
DAVID: I wonder.
GEORGE: You know better than that.
DAVID: I have never really seen the United
States of America ever act like this. You know, we're
American citizens. We got good records. You know, the
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ATP saying that we fired on them. I mean I know, let's
deal with it on the outside in the judicial system.
GEORGE: That's the only, that's the only
system we can deal with, Dave.
DAVID: And until, and until, and until you
get your hands on us, we're in prison here. And we got
to be punished. Do you all do this in the federal
prisons to the prisoners every day?
GEORGE: No.
DAVID: Rah, rah, rah mimicking noises!.
GEORGE: Pretty nasty.
DAVID: The other, the other night this thing
was on and I was dreaming. And I was dreaming that I
was sitting in church. And the preacher was up there.
and he was asking for money. And he had this big old
horn in his hand. And he said I'm going to keep doing
1 0
this until this plate is filled to the tOp. And he
kept going rah, rah mimicking noises!. And I was
trying to rebuke him. But I, I -- no one could hear
what I was saying.
That was a frustrating dream, George. And I
then I woke up, and of course it was here outside the,
the front of the building here so.
GEORGE: Well, David, you know what, you know
what we're trying to just move things along peacefully.
And that's, that's the reason for that.
92 -F 4 ! 23
DAVID: Well --
GEORGE: And, and you're smart enough to know
that.
DAVID: I'm wondering anymore whether I'm
smart or not.
GEORGE: Oh, come on.
DAVID: Sighing.! Oh, man. Well, George,
when's that battery coming? ,
GEORGE: Okay, the battery, the battery has
been authorized. I don't know exactly. I'd probably
need to call back to tell you exactly how we're going
to get that in and when to get it in.
DAVID: Well, when is the lawyer going to
give us a call?
GEORGE: Okay, David, would --
~ DAVID: Could you at least turn this monkey
macgine off while, when the lawyer calls? Can that be
arranged?
GEORGE: Yeah, I think that, that we can work
on. If, if I -- for instance if I, we can turn the
noise down while we're talking or turn it off while
we're talking, would, would you get some people out for
us? It's kind of a --
DAVID: George, where it stands right now is
if anybody wants to leave they're more than -- even
these two guys that came in. Steve has been giving
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it _> 2,
them -- do you know what they did? These guys came
here to save our souls. You know how fanatics are,
right?
GEORGE: I'm learning.
DAVID: They, they figured that we're that
bad and everything that, that they, we needed somebody
that really was spirit filled. And so they risked
their lives to come up here and save our souls. And
now they realize that we're, we're nothing like what
people said we were. And they're learning these seals.
And these guys are just -- well, you should talk --
have you talked to them yet?
GEORGE: They think they talked to them last
night. But David the -- you know that they're waiting
for, for you to say it's okay.
~ DAVID: I've told them it's okay.
i GEORGE: Well, it's, it's going to be more
than you saying it's okay. It's you telling them to
leave. That, that --
DAVID: Look. I can't do that.
GEORGE: -- that has to be done for their
own, for their own good.
DAVID: Hey, we were, we were sending them
out.
GEORGE: You've got to take the
responsibility and the leadership to say this is in
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92 -5 ~-! 25
your own good. You need to go. Because that's the
only way we're --
DAVID: Look, George, you do not understand.
My position is not what you think it is. Okay? Look
at the gospels. Did Christ ever tell his disciples
what to do?
GEORGE: David, they turned the noise off for
us so we could talk without that noise.
DAVID: Oh, yeah. I still hear it in my ears
though. It's, it's programed --
GEORGE: But do me a favor then, okay?
DAVID: Talk to these people, George. Let
them speak --
GEORGE: No, do me a favor. If we talk,
let's talk about, about resolving this not, not go back
over what, what we've gone over.
IQ DAVID: Sighing.! Wait a second. Let me
move my -- I'm shaking. Wait. Sighing.! Okay, I'm
back.
GEORGE: Peel better?
DAVID: Groaning.! Man, I have never in
my -- have you ever, have you ever, ever been -- you
ever had -- I think when I was -- years ago when I was
about maybe 13 I think I got the flu one time. And I
remember that I used to sit in my bed and have a
blanket around me. And I used to feel just these waves
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92~v - » -! 26
of I don't know, weakness or something go up and down
my back.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: You ever felt that way before?
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: I mean just really like, you know,
every time you move it kind of feels warm. A "
GEORGE: Well, you may have an infection or
fever.
DAVID: And -- I don't think I got a fever.
I don't -- it's cool in here anyway. But it's, it's, I
don't know, it's half pleasant and half, half --
forgotten words here. Annoying.
GEORGE: Uncomfortable.
DAVID: You know. I think, I think George -
John Cox told me I, I shouldn't have jumped up too, so
.
quidk in the beginning. Because every time I did I
started bleeding again. You know, that's -- ever been
shot with a bullet before, George?
GEORGE: I got hit with a ricochet once.
DAVID: Really? Vietnam?
GEORGE: No. Talking to somebody on the
phone just like this in a bank.
DAVID: Really?
GEORGE: Yeah.
DAVID: Did it go in you?
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92 ! 27
GEORGE: Just scraped the skin}
DAVID: Oh, yeah. I got, I got hit in the
left wrist, and my whole thumb from my fingernail back
is like numb. And the skin, the skin has turned to
leather. You know, like your elbow?
GEORGE: Um-hum. Um-hum.
DAVID: You know how, how dead it is, you
know, your elbow, and dry? It's just, I don't know, I
think maybe a nerve or something or was severed and
it's like no circulation is going through that.
GEORGE: That's not good.
DAVID: It's, it's not. You know, I can move
my thumb. It's just the top section of it down towards
the little knuckle back to where it connects to the
wrist is just as, is just as, feels like it's not a
part of me. But the, but the actual wound it's, it
I
developed a scab about I don't know, 3/8 of an inch
high. And I've been keeping that clean and all that.
It doesn't, it doesn't look too bad.
GEORGE: Well, it may, it may be important to
get a doctor to look at that soon so you don't have any
permanent kind of damage there.
DAVID: When is Passover coming up? What --
Steve, when is Passover coming up? Steve's voice in
background not discernible.! You ever kept the
Passover, George? You ever heard of it?
O O
~ vs > 28
csonsr-:= Yes. April s.
DAVID: April 6. Let's see. When was new
moon indiscernible!. Fifteenth day of the
indiscernible!. Yeah. Is my star still coming,
George?
GEORGE: Your star?
DAVID: Yeah. I was, I was telling the
negotiators that I was waiting for my star. I told
them in the beginning.
GEORGE: They're telling me yes. I'm, I'm
not -- I don't -- oh, okay. Telling me it's a comet.
DAVID: It's not a comet. Actually what it
is is it's actually angels. But the, the
indiscernible! the nebulas -- well, there's a, that
guitar. The prophets talk about Messiah and stringed
instruments, you know. That's one of the things you
I
shdpld ask the scholars about all they can tell you
about the stringed instruments of Messiah. And because
like I say if I go into it, I know you'll tell me
you're --
GEORGE: Cut you off.
DAVID: -- not interested. Yeah.
GEORGE: It's not, it's not that I'm not
interested. It's not, it's not doing anything to
resolve anything.
DAVID: Well, really -- look, if, if I'm, if
92~ ~! 29
I'm right what I --
GEORGE: But that's, but that's really got
nothing to do with, with what our situation is. The --
' DAVID: Well, I --
GEORGE: - the world, the world is going to
go on -- '
DAVID: Well, wait a minute. If I'm right,
this is what's going to happen. Okay? Listen, George.
If I'm right, then my Father and the chelebum phonetic
sp.! and the meklavas phonetic sp.! going to all of a
sudden -- there's going to be a big storm. I mean a
storm is going to develop out of nowhere. All the
prophets talk about it. Read in Jonah, Zephaniah,
Hosea, Obadiah, Malachi, Habakkuk. Read them. And all
those who have blasphemed without having compassion,
and all those in this nation who've made statements
contrary to me although not even knowing me or what I0
teach are going to, are going to be in bad trouble.
GEORGE: Well, the people are responsible for
what they say regardless.
DAVID: And this nation is going to be
overthrown so that all other nations in the world can
realize that capitalization that revolves around
Christmas, Easter, Halloween, these are all pagan
festivities, you know. And we really don't appreciate
you playing Christmas carols to us. But you know,
i
i
C ,
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92 'f r! 30
we'll take anything that you want to dish out. Because
it's just going to come right back on you if I'm right.
Now if I'm wrong, you know, I'm in your, I'm
in your hands of mercy. Because when I come out, you
know, I got to take what I got to take. But if I'm
right, everything you're doing to me is going to be
done to you sevenfold over.
And you know, I love you guys. You know, I
want to talk about these seals, because nobody can know
where I'm coming from unless they hear me out.
GEORGE: You can do that.
DAVID: I'd, I'd love to talk to these
scholars. And maybe they might - after talking with
me, maybe they might turn to you guys and say hey, you
better listen to this guy. He, he just might be that
thief in the night that the New Testament talks about.
Yougknow. There's something about Christ that nobody
knows until there's time no longer.
Oh, boy. Ask the doctors why a person shakes
when he's not cold.
GEORGE: Okay.
DAVID: I mean that's something I'd like
when, I'd like to - of course, you know if you, if --
GEORGE: You, you want to shoot some video of
that just so they get an idea of what you're --
DAVID: Yeah, I will.
K ' ~ ~-! 31
{
92» 2GEORGE: -- skin color and things like that.
DAVID: Yeah, we'll, we'll let them. Yeah,
we'll do that. Because like I say I, you know, I
don't - I know I'm not going to --
GEORGE: Get --
DAVID: -- I know I'm not going to die. But
I don't, I don't --
GEORGE: Get your, get your finger up as, as
clear so they can take a look at it and, and the
wounds.
DAVID: Yeah, I '11 let them tape. I mean I
healed up real fast. I mean you know.
' GEORGE: Well -
DAVID: The nur ses that were here -- of
course, you know you got one of the nurses there with
you. And you know, my blood pressure was really low.
Then it went up normal.
GEORGE: How, h
with wounds? Are they --
DAVID: How's,ow about other people in there
how's Scott doing?
GEORGE: -- having problems?
DAVID: Steve?
days have I been in hereWhere has he been? How many
anyway now?
STEVE: I don't know. It's been quite a
while.
DXVID: I mean what is today anyway?
92 "i '! 3 2
Steve's voice in background not discernible.!
Tuesday? Was the last I talked to John? And it's
Sunday?
GEORGE: Um-hum. It was Wednesday.
DAVID: It was Wednesday? Oh, boy. Yeah.
GEORGE: David, you know the problem is that
things just stop when you don't come to the phone. We
can't get anything resolved. You got to, you got to
hang in there and keep talking. It's the only way this
thing is going to work.
DAVID: Well, I -- every time I talk all I do
is talk about my work, my seals.
GEORGE: Well, you talk a little bit about
maybe, maybe people coming out. And that's what we got
to shift the conversation from.
~ DAVID: Well, I mean they just, they just
told me that, that -- what, what did they knock out,
Steve? Steve's voice in background not discernible.!
Yeah.
STEVE: They turned the boat over. They --
GEORGE: Yeah.
DAVID: Which boat did they turn over?
GEORGE: Yeah, we've been told that.
Steve's voice in background not discernible.!
DKVID: Huh? Oh, boy. Oh, another thing is
that, that bulldozer --
92- ! 33
STEVE: I told them.
DAVID: -- that they - oh, you told them?
Okay. Steve's voice in background not discernible.!
That's a rented one --
GEORGE: Laughing.!
DAVID: That's -- that thing is eighty some
thousand dollars. Itfs brand spanking new. And those
guys are probably jumping up and down to, to -- I mean
that's, that's not ours.
GEORGE: Okay.
DAVID: You know, it was for a month. But
it's not no more.
GEORGE: Okay. I understand.
DAVID: I might need to send them another
payment. But anyway. So what's this -- Steve, take a
note would you for me, please?
5 STEVE: Yeah.
J}
~ DAVID: what's this lawyer's name now,
George?
GEORGE: DeGuerin.
STEVE: DeGuerin.
DAVID: DeGuerin. Who, who --
GEORGE: Steve, Steve knows him I think. I
think they --
DAVID: Who is he? You heard of him before,
Steve? Steve's voice in background not discernible.!
2
i
Q
92-
'~ -
Q
-Q O
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Oh, but have you ever like, have you ever heard of him?
Is he like -- Steve's voice in background not
discernible.! They say he's famous. They say I'm
famous too now. I don't feel famous. What's this,
what's_this story about me being infamous? I'm not
infamous.
GEORGE: what's the story?
DAVID: I'm a country boy out here trying
t0 --
GEORGE: I'm not -- we're not into the story
part of this. We're just trying to get a job done.
We're just trying to get you out safely.
DAVID: One of the, one of the agents want to
talk to -- who's Rick? Steve's voice in background
not discernible.! Is Rick there? George?
h GEORGE: I don't -- Rick.
;f DAVID: Rick, Rick who's the --
¢ STEVE: He's an agent. He's a negotiator who
was on the phone with me last night.
DAVID: Last night.
STEVE: Yeah.
GEORGE: They got a different group on, on
here at night. You talking about, about Bob Ricks or,
or Rick was a guy on the phone?
DAVID: Bob Ricks?
STEVE: NO.
92 _: _! 35
DAVID: I've heard of Bob Ricks. I can't
remember -- Steve's voice in background not
discernible.! Austin. Rick from Austin.
GEORGE: Okay. I think he was on last night.
DAVID: Whatever, whatever happened to old
Jim? I liked old Jim. ATP -- the first one that ever
talked with us. I
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He's hack.
GEORGE: Jim, Jim I understand is back. He,
he was out of town for a while and he's back.
DAVID: How is he doing?
GEORGE: Far as I know he's doing okay.
They've, they've moved some people out and some people
back in, and it's hard to keep track of people.
DAVID: You tell John Cox I don't care how .
hard he is. I still like the guy.
; GEORGE: He'll be back tonight.
DAVID: Tell him, tell him he needs to break
away from eating those crawdad heads.
GEORGE: Well, why don't you call him
tonight? You can talk to him. He'll be here tonight.
DAVID: Oh.
GEORGE: Keep him up.
DAVID: I think he's kind of mad at me.
He -- you know, they were playing all this weird stuff.
And so one night I got on the phone with my guitar and
D I
92 -! 36i_ 1 kind of wacked out a few notes towards him. And he
2, don't like to take in what he likes to dish out.
3 GEORGE: Um-hum.
4 92 DAVID: I look at all those guys and their
5. families and, you know, I've always, I've always,
6 always tried to make friends out of everybody I've ever
7 known. There's not a person here in Waco that doesn't
8 like me. 'I've never pushed religion on anybody. You
9 know. some, some people, some people have like known me
10 a couple, three years and -- oh, baby, thank you. Boy
111 is he looking good. Huh? Judy's voice in background
12 not discernible.! Oh, that's a liberty coin. Want to
say hello to George? Say hello.13
{L 14 ssonss: Hello.
1s MAYANAH: Hi.
16 H GEORGE: Hello.
17 1 DAVID: Hi, George.
18 V J MAYANAH: Hi, George.
19 GEORGE: Hi, how are you?
20 DAVID: Hello.
21 MAYANAH: Hello.
22 GEORGE: What's your name?
23 DAVID: Oh, boy. I got to tell you.
24 GEORGE: Who was that, David?
" 25 DAVID: This is little Mayanah. Little --I92 .
F
92.you'll see her.
/-
" ~! 37
JUDY: David, have you seen my hand? Here,
here, here.
DAVID: That's where the bullets went
through?
JUDY: Yeah, and I didn't even feel it.
DAVID: Oh --
JUDY: I wasn't wearing a indiscernible!.
Bullets went through the skin.
DAVID: Yeah. Yeah, they said they didn't
have no machine guns. Goodness. These walls. There's
let me count, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,
13, 14, 15, 16. Let's see 16, 16 rounds in a group of
about a foot and a half right on this wall here.
A VGEORGE: Well, I don't know, I don't know
what to tell you about that. I think -- I'm not sure
it's helpful to keep, to keep talking about things
thaé, that have gone on. I think we need to try to
work --
DAVID: George, let me ask you an honest
question man to man. It's on tape.
GEORGE: Okay.
DAVID: We -- me stepping out --
GEORGE: Okay.
DAVID: -- on the front door with my right
hand out, my left hand holding the door open, my one
foot down on the porch. It's on tape.
Q A I.. , . _! 38
GEORGE: What's, what's your question, David?
DAVID: Well, no, it's a statement. You
know, the thing of it is is that you know, why would I
be coming out for if I'm, if I'm going to, if I'm
supposed to be blowing these guys up?
GEORGE: I don't, I don't know. I, I --
DAVID: Now, in, in the let, let me
explain now. This is not religious. This is civil.
GEORGE: Okay. Okay.
DAVID: When on the left those ATF agents
were coming around to the left side of the gates, and
they were coming around to the right of me there
because of the front gate, the truck was right there,
and the two cameramen were straight across the,
straight across, perfect view with the door there over
in their cars over there. Why do you think that all of
a sugden I fell back inside the door for? I mean you
know, that gun went pow, and that door in my left hand
kicked. And I can, I can show you the bullet hole
coming in, 9 millimeter.
Now the ATP said that it went off by
accident. But of course, whether accident or not,when
it went o£f,then everybody else started firing too.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
DAVID: From the ATP agents.
GEORGE: Um-hum.
4 -! as
DAVID: They started firing too.
GEORGE: But David, it's really --
DAVID: And Perry was standing right there
not -- the doors are metal. Perry was standing there
next to the window, and he got hit twice. Now he died.
You know. Now I don't care what you call law or what
you call federal. It was unnecessary.
You know. You may have gotten reports that
we had machine guns. You may have gotten reports that
we had bombs or we had missiles. But I'm talking to
you man to man. And listen to me.
GEORGE: I'm listening.
DAVID: Every day I jog at the front of this
gate down the road either to the two water tanks on a
cold day or all the way down to the end of the road on
the dirt road on a warmer day. Robert Gonzales, all
aloég we knew they were agents. Any day all they had
to do is get on the telephone, and by the time I made
it to the end of the, to the road down there, any day
you boys could have picked me up anytime. When I went
out here in my car to Wal-Mart. You know. Any day.
GEORGE: But David.
DAVID: But no, David.
GEORGE: Okay.
DAVID: But instead.
GEORGE: No. But David, what do we do about
Q O
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it now though?
DAVID: Well, what we do about it now is I
wait on God. I pray. Because you boys are murderers.
You boys are killers. My country has dealt with me and
people I love in a way that's not right.
GEORGE: So what do we do about it?
DAVID: Well, what you've done about it is
you've disrespected sic! my personage -- 3
GEORGE: Well --
DAVID: -- civilly, and you've disrespected
my religion.
GEORGE: Well, David, what I'm doing about it
is --
DAVID: And you've, and you've come and
you've said come out. And you've said now. And you've
torn up my boat, my motorcycle, the children's
motércycles, the --
End of Tape #181!