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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #67
March 6, 1993
10:15 a.m. - 3:59 p.m.
0 I 2
Tape 57!
DICK: at 10:30.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: And I want you to make sure - you and
Dave watch that to make sure that and if you've got
points that you dispute, please give them to me and,
again, we'll pass them on.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: And I'll try to clarify them.
STEVE: You know, it has been asked by the
press about, you know, communication to us.
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I would like at least let it be known
that it's not our choice that we're cut off or that we
don't at least have one line to at least one news
agency, where they can at least monitor us, see if
we're okay, or whatever else.
DICK: You know what, when we were when we
were apart from one another, I, I had a thought here.
One of your big concerns is that you don't believe that
anybody will listen or that you will have the
opportunity to present your case. I know you're
concerned about that. So, what I've asked is to make
that known to the press --
STEVE: All right.
DICK: -- that you're concerned that you
0 0 3
won't get the opportunity --
STEVE: I appreciate that.
DICK: - and, and that --
STEVE: I'm sure that helps.
DICK:
them that,Sure. That will put that right to
hey, you said that you're concerned, and I
want to go to them and tell them of your concern,
directly to them, so that they will know and you will
know that we're not trying to cover up or hide any of
the - any of these comments that you eventually would
like to make. So, how's that? I mean that, that --
that's Indiscernible! isn't it?
STEVE: It's, it's a small, small, small part
DICK: But it's, it's a step.
STEVE: -- of it in the right direction.
DICK: Sure, it's a step and you guys ~~ it
will show you that, in fact, we're not opposed to that
at all. In fact, we demand that you do that. I mean
we, as citizens
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
again.secondarily, I mean ~-
Indiscernible!
- we demand that you do that.
That's good to hear.
Because I don't want that to happen
STEVE: Okay. I'll, I'll call you as the
0 0 4
soon as the I'm going to start preparing that we can
watch this on T.V.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: That gives us about 10 minutes to get
the thing going here.
DICK: All right. And then you guys - you
working on some of the folks that you, you ~
STEVE: Yes .
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Most definitely.
DICK: And then tell David, if you would,
that I've done this for him and I'd like to get an
opportunity to talk to him when I get back, too.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: So, between us, between all three of
us, perhaps we can, we can get some of these issues
past, you know, past center line here.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: And, and we'll work, we'll work
together on it and we'll get it done.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: All right. We'll be back ~- we'll be
back in touch after, after the press conference then.
STEVE: Okay. Thank you.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: Bye.
0 I 5
DICK: Byebye.
RACHEL: Hello.
DICK: Hello. Dick. Whos this?
RACHEL: Rachel.
DICK: Rachel, how are you today?
RACHEL: Fine. Just a minute, I'll get
Steve.
DICK: How about David?
No response!
Pause!
STEVE: Hello.
DICK: Steve?
STEVE: Hello, Dick.
DICK: Yes.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: I thought you were going to try to get
Dave up here so we could go over some of these issues
you guys were concerned about.
STEVE: Well, I was going to try is right but
he's totally out right now. I didn't realize. I just
found out. In the middle of the night, I guess, he was
trying to see just how excuse me, someone's got the
- just a moment here.
DICK: Did you get a chance to see that press
conference?
STEVE: Yeah. Apparently, that last night he
lwas trying to see how well his limbs and everything
were working and it took a lot out of him.
DICK: You mean tired?
STEVE: Oh, yeah, real tired. I didn't
realize. I thought I heard him moan or groan. So --
DICK: Well, I need a -- I need a chance to
talk to him here in a few minutes. So, why don't you
go ahead and send somebody in there, if you will, and
ask him to --
STEVE: I'll try to but
DICK: -- come out.
STEVE: -- I'm telling you, you know, when
the guy, you know, it's not as easy as you make it
sound because if the -- you know,
injured like he was --
DICK: Oh, I understandif the guy has been
STEVE: You know, I mean if he was in the
hospital, quite obviously the guy
all the time, which he is all the
he doesn't have quite the --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- attention as
DICK: Sure, sure.
STEVE: But, no, I will
mean --
DICK: Can you get thatwould be in and out
more so here because
in the hospital.
do. I'm serious. I
phone maybe over to
0 I 7
him rather than trying to get him up?
STEVE: Well, that's what I'm saying. In
fact, I've got -- right now I have pulled the phone
over by him. He's out totally right now. I'm looking
right at him. And I mean if he's awake or if I can get
him awake --
DICK: Well, we'll give it a couple of
minutes and why don't you go ahead and shake him up.
But did you see that did you see the press
conference?
STEVE: YeS, I did.
DICK: What --
STEVE: He, he didn't, though, because he was
even out -- in fact, I told them to wake him up so he
could see it. Apparently, he wouldn't wake up.
DICK: Well, I wish he had seen it. I think
he'd have been - I think he'd have been happy with I
don't think they're trying to --
STEVE: I don't think he would be.
DICK: Really?
STEVE: No, I really don't because there was
a number of things that were brought out. I listened
very carefully myself.
DICK: Okay. with what, what - do you have
some ~-
STEVE: Well, number one, you know, it was
0 Q 8
implied by I believe his name is Bob Ricks?
DICK: Right.
STEVE: It was implied that, that you people
are under the impression that these people are not free
to go and well, you can make that assumption. I've
told you over and over again --
DICK: No, those were questions asked of us.
STEVE: Right, but I'm talking about the
response to those questions.
DICK: Uh-huh .
STEVE: And it was not made clear - these
people are they can leave anytime they want, from
day one. They still can. But like I told you, they
choose to see -- they believe in his God. That's the
point Indiscernible!.
DICK: No, I know. I passed that on that --
STEVE: All right.
DICK: that you've all said that but
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: ~ I guess we continue to get calls
from like some of these people - remember John talked
with you last night about, these people are making
inquiry about --
STEVE: That, that's fine, whatever
DICK: People Indiscernible!?
STEVE: Yeah, that's fine.
Q Q 9
DICK: Okay. What was the other issue that
you were concerned --
STEVE: Okay. Let me look down here and see.
Okay. Now, the latest thing was that the man, I think
his name was Dan Hartnet --
DICK: Right --
STEVE: -- said that --
DICK: -- the ATF representative.
STEVE: -- they did have a felony charge, a
felony charge warrant for D.K. Okay, that's -- and
then it went on -- they asked about -- I can hardly see
or I have very little light here. Just a moment. Let
me -- do you have a flashlight there? I'm sitting in a
spot here. It's kind of dark. See, I don't want to
turn the lights on here because he's sleeping. So,
I'll just --
DICK: True. Do you know what we - while
you're going through your notes there, I just want to
make - bring you up a comment here. You know, we
talked about a list of, of people that you guys might
be interested in having to talk with but aren't you and
David going to have to get together to -- on that?
STEVE: No. He's already said that anybody
that wants can come to the phone and talk. I just now
even went to a lot of people, just right now, --
DICK: Uh-huh .
. 9 1.
STEVE: ~ and said to them, there's a man on
the phone and his name is Dick. He's an F.B.I. agent.
he's a negotiator. He's a very decent guy. If you'd
like to talk to him about anything, about leaving,
about your children, about relatives, about speaking
with someone on the outside, about any of your needs or
wants --
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I talked to at least 20 people in one
place at one time. Then I walked down and talked to a
few more here and there. And they all said to me, you
talk, you know what we want. And I says, well, what do
you want? That's what I asked them, what do you want?
And they says, well, make it known that before a lot of
us were afraid to make a step forward. They can say
what they want but we don't have that line to the
outside world. We want somebody without - the press
to be nearby, to see, to be able to video, to be in
part of this negotiation process.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: That's what, that's what they told
me.
DICK: Remember ~-
STEVE: And then they said to me, well, you
speak for us. And I says, --
DICK: Okay.
0 ll
STEVE: ~- I will.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: I will.
DICK: All right. Well, you know, we'll go
with that but I guess I was making reference to more
is, is, is the, the people that you had suggested you
might want to later to talk with, that you were going
to give me names of those people, remember? I, I'm not
talking about the people inside to talk with me but
those people that you might want --
STEVE: Right.
DICK: -- to give us --
STEVE: Right.
DICK: ~- as a possible --
STEVE: I, I did ask them. This is what
their - I'll give you some of those names, if you'd
like. This is what they mentioned to me. They
mentioned Larry King, Paul Harvey. I never heard of
this man, a David Gold, a Rush Limbo I think the name
was.
DICK: Rush Limbaugh?
STEVE: Limbaugh, is that it?
DICK: Yeah. I think there's a fellow by the
name of that.
STEVE: Apparently, he's in a lot of
controversial issues or something, I don't know. Paul
l. ' 12
Harvey, many people are --
DICK: Yeah, I know Paul Harvey.
STEVE: Exactly. Oprah Winfrey, I guess.
DICK: Well, I'm sure -- I'll guarantee you
that when this thing -- when you come out, there will
be a lot of invitations to go on Oprah Winfrey's show.
STEVE: Well, you and I -- you and I are --
well, I'm not -- we're not interested in that kind of
thing.
DICK: No, I know, but to get the word out
I'm saying.
STEVE: Yeah, right. Well, okay, but right
now what the thing is, these people are afraid to make
the move without him --
DICK: Okay. Sure.
STEVE: -- and an involvement there.
DICK: And, remember, I told you moments ago
when I spoke to you then --
STEVE: Right, you, you did.
DICK: -- your concern about not being able
to get to the press. And we're going to -- we're going
to make sure the press is aware of that so that if
you're concerned --
STEVE: I was hoping that that would have
happened during that conference even.
DICK: well, you know that came up. This --
' 9 .3
obviously, they're gone from here --
STEVE: I see okay.
DICK: -~ when they get this conference
together.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: So, that, that should come up on the
next one.
STEVE: Is there going to be another one
today?
DICK: No, not today.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: But that will be -- we've asked that
that be included in the next one because I ~-
STEVE: I see.
DICK: - I -- that's a good point. And I
know you're concerned about that and I will I'm in
total agreement, as is everyone else here, that your,
your story needs to get out. I know you're concerned
that you don't think we will allow it, too. So, this
maybe will, will give you that sign that it will get
STEVE: Right.
DICK: You will get that opportunity. So,
that's good. We'll work with that.
STEVE: You know, of course, you know, when I
listen to a conference like that, you observe, you
know, all these different things that are taking place
I
9 0 1.
and what's being said. It really bothers me that it's
us that are being spoken of of having felony charges
and all the rest. what
DICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: The insanity of the whole thing. I
mean when you really sit down and look at it from
beginning to end, the insanity of it all --
DICK: Right. Did you hear Mr. Hartnet say
that the ATF ~
STEVE: Yeah, I mean but --
DICK: - has to be responsible for what they
did?
STEVE: Well, yes, I did, but many times in
the past these different bureaucracies have slapped the
hands of individuals. You never hear of them going up
on charges of murder and so forth. I mean the total
disregard of human life here was - it was awesome. I
mean I've talked to a lot of people. I got to see the
firsthand witnesses, the approach of the vehicles. You
weren't there, I don't believe, were you?
DICK: Absolutely not.
STEVE: Okay. But they were. They saw what
was happening and --
DICK: No
STEVE: - when they fell to the floor, there
were bullets that went - I'm talking about missing
. 9 .5
them by an - you will be able to come into this
premises ultimately and look it over yourself, where
the different people resided, in what rooms and so
forth. You're going to be -- it's a miracle that there
aren't at least 20 more people dead here. I'm telling
you the truth.
DICK: I know you are.
STEVE: So, when it --
DICK: I know you are, Steve.
STEVE: -- comes down to federal charges
being filed, felony charges against people here, I mean
what are we talk -- we're talking about defense. There
was an offense that was committed and there was a
defense here taking place.
DICK: I know that's your position and that's
what you need to make known to people.
STEVE: None of these people - you know that
99% of these people have never even held a gun before
that day or touched one or seen one, hardly seen one?
DICK: I have no doubts that that's true.
STEVE: So, I mean it's just - it bothers me
to hear that, you know, there's going to be felony
charges on one side, plural. But on the other hand,
I'd like to hear the same kind of language employed on
the other, also.
DICK: Well, if that's what this, what this
' 9 .6
inquiry determines, then there will be but they have to
be -- the evidence has to be looked at first, Steve.
STEVE: But, obviously, Dick, you and I know
that through the years -- it's -- when has that ever
taken place with federal agents, especially federal
agents, someone at that level, let alone like police
officers and so forth? It's a rare, rare, rarity. I
can't even think of an instance where it's happened.
incident
I__
resolved
been --DICK: Well, how about the Rodney King
for instance?
STEVE: Well, I don't know, it's ongoing and
DICK: Well, it is, but it has to be
STEVE: Yes, but I haven't been I haven't
DICK: They've been charged, haven't they?
STEVE: - Indiscernible! with that.
DICK: I know, but they've been charged.
STEVE: I guess. I haven't been following it
so I don't know what's -- you can fill me in and let me
know what's happening.
DICK: Well, they have been charged. And,
and you know that because there was an earlier trial.
So, they - you know they were charged.
STEVE: well, you know, the greatest thing
Q Q 17
that would help get this process going and people come
out -- these women, especially, that I was talking to
just before you called me back to the phone here --
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I was saying, well, what do you want?
They says, Dick will talk to you. You let him -- if
you want to go, tell him that. I mean Dave was not
even around when you're talking to these people.
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: He don't, he don't care who talks to
or says -- he's laying down sleeping right now.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: It's quiet around him. It's -- he's
in a dark spot here. He's trying to get some rest.
And he, he, he told me, while I was talking to you, he
interrupted my speech with you earlier --
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- and said to me, let anybody talk
to him. Let the women talk to him. He went like that
to me. So, I mean - and they --
DICK: Well, --
STEVE: -- and then when I said, I said,
look, he's going to be calling me back. Instead of me
getting on the phone with Dick, why don't some of you
take your turns. You can talk to him. He wants -- he
does want -- I told them --
9 9 18
DICK: Did you tell them about the personal
messages I had for some of them?
t STEVE: Yeah, yeah, I did. I said there's a
lot of relatives, there's parents involved that want to
see if you're okay, and who's here. I said, the
F.B.I., themselves, want to know names and numbers '
here, obviously.
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: S0, you know, and even David doesn't
seem like he's holding back with that. It seems like
he was willing to even get into that more.
DICK: No, I appreciate that and you have,
you have let these folks come forward. And I know that
they're all interested in hearing about the concerns
that have been expressed by relatives and friends, and
I've got a list of people here.
STEVE: Right.
DICK: Is Barbara Reed or Leane and David
Joseph in --
STEVE: Let me start writing some of those
names down --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- because, you know, I'm not --
honesty, that's the first time I've ever heard that
name. Okay. The first name, again, was?
DICK: Barbara Reed, REE-D.
9 9 1.
STEVE: Okay. Now my pen quit. Let me see
- okay, here it goes. Barbara Reed.
DICK: Right.
STEVE: Here it quits again. Let me try a
different pen. Could someone get -- well, here, I've
got another pad. Just one minute. See if I can't find
something else to write with.
DICK: You know, while you're listening and
trying to find a pen there --
STEVE: Yeah .
DICK: -- a case came to mind. There was a
federal jury down the Southern District of Florida that
STEVE: Uhhuh.
DICK: - that dismissed cases against a
fellow down there who's a pilot for a family down
there. And they, they just - they ruled that the ATF
had entrapped the man and the jury acquitted him on, on
three charges in, in just a couple of days.
STEVE: Is that right?
DICK: Oh, yeah. It's called the Scott case.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: The ATF entrapped him and, and
remember the Delorean trial years ago, remember that,
John Delorean?
STEVE: Yeah.
9 9 .0
DICK: Involved in a big drug thing.
STEVE: Yes, I do.
DICK: And he got, he got an acquittal by a
jury of his peers.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: And that's the way the system works.
You go into court --
STEVE: I know it does happen.
DICK: Sure, it does.
STEVE: That man was very powerful with a lot
of connections at the same time.
DICK: Well, here's a fellow one of the
guys told me about a case that he was involved in -- a
guy up in Coleville, Washington, which is a very, very
small town, was another ATF case. And, apparently,
there was some, some SWAT team, ATF SWAT team used.
And, and the charges were dismissed.
STEVE: Well, I'm sure --
DICK: So, I mean it happens. It happens.
STEVE: ~ it happens.
DICK: You know, it, it does happen because
sometimes people are a little over zealous in doing
their job. I mean -- in some of these other cases
STEVE: I know - I would believe that you
would be a person that would try to be quite informed
day by day on a day by especially because of the,
the job that you have. Have
on BAPF, Breaking the Law or
like that. I can't remember
someone once said to me they21
you ever viewed that video
Above the Law or something
exactly the wording but
had -- someone had passed
the tape to them and they says, I want you to see this.
And I said, I told him I didn't really have
it didn't concern me because
all the rest. But he says, Steve, it's the
So, I sat down to watch and I was astoundedthe time,
I was not into guns and
principle.
to see what
was taking place, you know, and especially even against
police officers by the ATF. And that's not to say that
all these guys are aware of what's taking place but
there's definitely - they're taking privileges that
are not or to me that are very unlawful, that are
unconstitutional, that should not be.
DICK: Steve, it, it sounds a little trite
but I'm going to tell you, none of us are perfect. We
in the F.B.I., the ATF, the police departments, we're
not perfect and we certainly do make errors and have
made and unfortunately will probably continue to make
errors. But we don't -- we want to make sure -- all of
us that are involved in this particular incident want
to make sure that nothing like this happens again.
STEVE: Right.
DICK: And, and, certainly, I'm, I'm going to
concede that we make errors. I guess if we were
N 22
perfect, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing, will
we? I mean, you know ~-
STEVE: Dick, what were some of those names
then? I'll get you back to that then. I've got a pen
here.
DICK:
again?
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:Okay. You got the pen ready to go
Yeah.
Okay. And let me just give you one -
Barbara --
~- one more point that I want --
Okay.
~- to make before we --
All right.
- go to that list. You were
concerned earlier in the conversation that the film
taken during this Sunday incident would be altered to
some degree. We also are going to make sure that
people know you're concerned about that. And so that,
you know, it's known that, that continues to concern
you.
STEVE: Can I ask you, what do you know about
that
that
that
areafilm cause, obviously, we have not seen it? Was
done by a number of news crews from that distance
they were allowed to be at or were they inside an
where the ATF would have not chosen to have them?
O I 23
DICK: My belief and, again, I would have to
confirm this
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: but it's my understanding that a
news crew - there was one news crew that, that did not
go with ATF but followed ATF based on this -- perhaps
on this article that appeared in the paper. They may
have been --
STEVE: Right.
DICK: -- may have been watching ATF offices
or something in preparation for what they felt might
have been some attempt to serve a warrant and, and --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: - did, in fact, film it. And that --
we have taken that film. They've been kind enough to
give us a copy of that film. While they keep the film,
mind you, we didn't confiscate it, they gave us,
meaning law enforcement, a copy of it. And it was
shown nationwide. I didn't see the whole thing cause
I only caught excerpts of --
STEVE: well, could we see it?
DICK: Sure, you'll be able to see it,
absolutely.
STEVE: No, no, no, I'm talking about what,
what's the problem -- you tell me what the problem
would be with now to view it.
1
!9 9 2.
DICK: To do now?
STEVE: Yes.
DICK: To --
STEVE: So we can see just exactly what's
going on from outside inside. Maybe that would be one
of the things that help some of these people here make
a decision about walking out.
DICK: That's, hey, you know, that's a
thought.
" STEVE: Cause I'm telling you, they do have
fears.
DICK: That's a thought.
STEVE: You, you, guy got to keep on
reminding you it's not so easy to tell this group,
well, hey, it's okay because they do not think so
because they're ~- ever since we were cut off from the
press, that's when the greatest fears start taking
place with these people. Every time I go around saying
that there's a man, Dick, on the telephone, he's
willing to talk with you, they're telling me that they
don't trust you because of not having nearby or someone
either recording or someone that's unbiased like say
news media or they want to get - that it would make
all the difference. So, there are those people that
this is what they're telling me anyway.
DICK: Okay. Well, ~-
' 9 .5
kinds of -
there, youSTEVE: So, keep it in mind with whatever
DICK: I Will.
STEVE: - thing you've got in mind --
DICK: I will.
STEVE: - for negotiation.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Uh --
DICK: well, let's go. You got your pencil
r pen?
STEVE: Yeah, I do, I do.
DICK: Okay. There's a Leane Josephson and
William Josephson.
again. Jo
think it wSTEVE: Joseph let's see, my pen quit
sephson. Okay. And a which?
DICK: A William or a Bill Josephson.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: A Jeff Little.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: Margarita or it's spelled M-ARG-A-
STEVE: Oh, yeah, we went - last night I
as, was that John and I that --
DICK: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: Jeff Little is someone that is here?
DICK: Right.R
9 9 .6
STEVE: And his family, again, his father
called or something or is there with --
DICK: Yeah, exactly. Lonnie Little ~-
STEVE: Lonnie Little, okay, I'll write that
down.
DICK: - called.
STEVE: Lonnie Little. Okay.
DICK: Well, you think -~ you don't you
want to take this list down or do you want to talk
directly to them? Well, what do you want to do?
STEVE: well, I'll, I'll ask them. I --
DICK: Okay. All right.
STEVE: -- I'll say to them, do you want to
talk to these people, what do you want to do?
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: I'll go around. So, --
DICK: The next one is a Catherine --
STEVE: But you mentioned a Barbara Rush or
something?
DICK: No Barbara Rush. Barbara Reed, RE-E-
D. Barbara Reed was one of the names I gave.
STEVE: Oh, Barbara Reed. Who is she with or
asking for?
DICK: Apparently, she's one of the folks
that's thought to be inside there with you.
STEVE: A Barbara Reed?
0 0 2,
DICK: That's what -- that's what we --
STEVE: We've never heard of the person.
DICK: Okay. well, you get inquiry from
these folks. Maybe that's the child of the Josephsons
or some such thing. I-~
STEVE: who are Josephsons? who are they
connected to or who are they --
DICK: A Lynn Josephson
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: -- has made inquiry about, about three
people, Reed and Leane and William Josephson.
STEVE: we know none of those three. And the
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: - person inquiring was, again, who?
DICK: Lynn Josephson.
STEVE: Lynn, yeah -- no one to do with us.
Must be some other thing totally.
DICK: Okay. Now, you mentioned to me before
you really hadn't had contact with everybody. Are you,
are you quite sure that this is accurate?
STEVE: Oh, yeah, no question about it.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: I'll go to make sure, of course.
I'll ask a lot of people --
DICK: Okay.
0 0 28
STEVE: - anybody here ever hear of a Lynn
Josephson or a Barbara Reed, a Leane Josephson, a Bill
Josephson? Yeah, no one -- they're all shaking their
head. They've never heard of such persons.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Okay. And then the next person you
mentioned
DICK:
with you, yeah.
STEVE:
DICK:
correct?
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
understand.
STEVE
last night.
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVEwas Lonnie Little in relation to Jeff Little?
Jeff Little is supposed to be inside
Right.
And you said he's okay, is that
Yes, that's -- this is correct.
Okay.
who else?
And Margarita Vega. She's all right I
Right. I had mentioned that also
Okay. Sherry Jewel.
Okay. And she is also.
She's okay?
Yeah.
Okay. A --
Who was asking for Margarita? I
believe it was her daughter, Gessiler or something.
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
pronounced?
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
Borst.
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:Ursula.
Ursula, that's what it was.
Ursula. Gerdman, I think it's
That's correct.
Okay. Sherry Jewel?
Okay. And it was Mosers --
Moser.
- the mother, yeah.
Right. She, she's fine, right?
Yes.
Okay. A Mary Jean Borst.
Mary Jean Borst. Okay.
And that inquiry comes from Darrin
From Dan?
From Darrin.
Oh, Darrin, okay.
Yeah. The next one --
It must be a son.
It is. The next one is the and
understand she might be okay, is that correct?
STEVE: Yeah, she is.
DICK: Okay. A fellow - geez, I'm not
familiar with this name, GR-A-EM I think it's
Graem Cradock.I
" "' 30
STEVE: Oh, Graem Cradock.
DICK: Graem, okay, that's what that is.
STEVE: Yeah. Yeah.
DICK: Okay. I guess that's what this says
Graem Cradock, fine?
AustraliaSTEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:Yes.
Okay. A Douglas --
Is that from his mother, maybe?
Yes.
Okay.
No, I'm sorry, Barry Cradock.
Okay, Barry.
Yeah. From - these folks are from
Right, they are.
Okay. A Douglas Martin.
Okay, Douglas Martin.
Okay. From Anthony Greenwood. Is
Douglas all right?
also?STEVE: Yes, he is.
DICK: How about Sheila? She's all right,
STEVE: Yes.
DICK: Both of them are there --
STEVE: Right.
DICK: and they're both fine. Okay. How
0 0 31
about Paul Fanta, Fatta, F-ATTA?
STEVE: He seems to be okay, also.
DICK: And --
STEVE: Who's, who's been asking for Paul?
DICK:
DICK:Irma.
Okay. Paul is - it's Irma. See, I
better write some of these -- must be a grandparent.
DICK:
indication here
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
some --
STEVE
DICK:Yeah, I don't know. There's no, no
Okay. Indiscernible!
And --
Anyway, I got it down. Don't worry.
Kalani Fatta.
Okay.
Both these folks are okay? There was
Yes.
Apparently, you mentioned last night
you weren't sure about that. That's one of the names,
I think, that David asked me about yesterday.
STEVE: Right.
DICK:
both fine?So, Paul Fatta and Kalani are, are
STEVE: Yes, from what I'm hearing anyway.
This is what I've been told.
DICK: Okay. But you -- okay.
from the B
don't know
check on h
are --
that --
that --9 32
STEVE: Okay. And who else do you have?
DICK: All right. Then we have some inquiry
ritish Consulate.
STEVE: Okay, British - okay.
DICK: Making inquiry on a Winston Blake.
STEVE: Winston Blake.
DICK: Is he okay?
STEVE: I believe he is Indiscernible!.
DICK: Well, now don't tell me that if you
STEVE: No, no, I'm -- that's why --
DICK: Because --
STEVE: I say, I'm going to let me
im, okay?
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: Because, you know, these, these folks
STEVE: Right.
DICK: People are concerned about them and --
STEVE: Right.
DICK: -- and we just don't want to tell them
STEVE: Okay. Do you have a name for Winston
DICK: No, I don't have --
", |, 33
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: I don't have --
STEVE: These are just ones that are being
raised, huh, as names or something?
DICK: Right.
STEVE: Okay. who else?
DICK: A Beverly Elliott.
STEVE: Beverly Elliott, okay. Okay.
DICK: Okay. Susan Benta, B-EN-TA.
STEVE: Okay. Yes.
DICK: Are you telling me she's - these,
these other two folks, Beverly and Susan, are both
fine?
STEVE: Yes, they are.
DICK: Okay. Cliff Sellers.
Someone playing with telephone buttons!
STEVE: Oh, someone just hit --
DICK: Okay. It's all right. I'm still
here.
STEVE: Okay. Okay.
DICK: Cliff Sellers.
STEVE: Yes, fine.
DICK: Okay. Marjorie Powell.
STEVE: Fine.
DICK: Okay. Now, again, when you're saying
fine, they're all there and doing well?
9 9 3.
STEVE: That's right.
DICK: Okay. Yvette Fagan, F-A-GA-N.
STEVE: Fine.
DICK: Okay. Livingston Fagan.
STEVE: Fine.
DICK: Mike Malcolm.
STEVE: Let's see, Mike Malcolm, Mike
Malcolm. I don't know any Mike Malcolm. Could it be
Livingston Malcolm? It must be cause --
DICK: Yeah, I suppose that it's possible.
There's a Livingston Fagan.
STEVE: Right.
DICK: You mean you've got a Livingston
Malcolm, also?
STEVE: That's correct. That's correct.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: If he's got a nickname, Mike, or
something, then --
DICK: Well, that's possible. That's
certainly possible. A Natalie, last name is NO~RBR
EGA.
STEVE: You have her.
DICK: Okay. Bernadette Mombelly, Mombelly,
is that how it's pronounced?
STEVE: Yeah, she's here.
DICK: Okay. Okay. Ramos, Ramos, last name8
" ", 35
is AVRRM.
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
ETT-E.
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:What's the first name?
Renos or Ramos.
Or Renos, okay, yes.
Okay?
Uh-huh.
All righty. An Alrick Benette, B-EN-
Benette. What's the first name?
Alrick, ALRI-C-K, Alrick.
Alrick.
Might - they might call him George.
Oh, I see. Yes.
Middle name is apparently George.
Okay.
All righty.
All right.
A Derrick Lovelock.
Yes.
Okay. And a Sonja Murray?
Yes.
Okay. Let me see if I have any other
names here. Those are folks that people made inquiry
on. I think I had some other names here but it may
have been included on this list here.
STEVE: Okay.
' 9 3.
DICK: Okay. All right. Well, I'm sure --
you know, we'll pass this on to these folks and I'm
sure they'll appreciate your confirming that they're,
that they're fine.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: Now, how about some of these folks,
they want me to pass directly on to them the concerns
of these other people, the people that have called in?
STEVE: Like?
DICK: Well, I'm just saying, if you have
some of these folks here that --
STEVE: Here's what I'll do.
DICK: - whose names I just gave you.
STEVE: Can you give me about an hour or two
and --
DICK: Well, we'll give you some time.
STEVE: Well, here's what I'm going to do.
Well, of course you are. But anyway, we're - I'll go
around with especially this list and even with others
who, who have not been inquired about.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: I'll ask them if they want to make
known to their parents, to other relatives, to friends,
anything through or by yourself. This list here, I'm
going to even pass it on to them and --
DICK: Okay.
9 9 3.
STEVE: -- ask them if they want to talk to
you to let them know their condition or whatever else.
DICK: Okay. You know, while your --
STEVE: So far I haven't really talked to a
lot of those that are from Britain as much as like I
told you just --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: - a little while ago, I was talking
to a group of people and, and a few others which they
said they wanted me to be their spokes person, trying
to get a line open for someone else other than the very
agency that would be arresting them. So, that's what
you and I are were talking about, which didn't seem
unreasonable to yourself, having an in betweener go
between --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- and you and I will continue to
work on that.
DICK: All right. Let me see. I have one
other thought concerning those folks - there are,
obviously, a lot of other people in there we've not
talked to.
STEVE: Uh-huh.
DICK: If you could get me a list of their
names and a list of, of the person that they want us to
pass on some -- a message to, we will certainly
"' " as
entertain that.
STEVE: Right.
DICK: We would -- you give us a telephone
number, a name, an address and --
STEVE: You know, I'll - you would, of
course, know that I'd want to do that except for the
very reason of logistics. I mean the whole problem
being that, you know, we don't want you to know exactly
who is here totally, do we?
DICK: Well, that may well be and that's --
if that's your choice, that's fine. I just wanted --
STEVE: Yeah, but, but you would know that,
of course.
DICK: Well, I understand that might be a
concern of yours but I thought maybe because all of
those people are in there voluntarily, they might want
to just let people know that they're fine, that they're
okay.
STEVE: That's why we're still trying to, you
know, we're trying to go to the nth degree to try to
work something out. when I tell you that if these
people want to go, believe me, they'll be out there
with assistance.
DICK: Sure. Oh, I understand what you're
saying. I just thought if they don't want to go. You
cannot believe the deluge of telephone calls that we've
9 U 3.
STEVE: Oh, I can believe, for sure.
DICK: - received here from people
wondering, one, are their, are their loved ones in
there? And, two, are they okay if they're in there.
So, what we're trying to do is just --
STEVE: I'm --
DICK: get a message to those folks.
STEVE: -- I'm shocked that there haven't
been more phone calls and more requests, in fact, than
what you've given me here.
DICK: Oh, there are. We're just trying to
get them to you when we can but, unfortunately, some of
those folks that are in there are unknown, and we're
going to have to work backwards from your end there
with the name and telephone numbers for those people
that we can contact.
STEVE: I can imagine for sure.
DICK: And we'll be happy to do that for you
and for them.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: So, you know, you get together a list
of those folks for me and then, and then a list of, you
know, people that you might have some interest in in
talking to later.
STEVE: Right. well, I'll be doing that in
O I 40
the next few hours then.
DICK: Well, yeah, you know what you could
do, Steve?
STEVE: What's that?
DICK: Have - assign that -- delegate to
someone and have them - several people go out.
STEVE: Well, that's what I would -- that's
what I would be doing, of course.
DICK: Okay. Good. Good.
STEVE: when I say that, I'm just saying now
get the process started.
DICK: Yeah, don't do it yourself, send out
somebody to get it done for you.
And David's still, still down?
STEVE: He's still out. I'm looking - in
fact, I'm looking at him now.
DICK: You know, one thing that concerns me,
if he's sleeping so much, that might be an indication
that his health is not as good as it might be.
STEVE: Well, I don't know cause aren't
usually the best thing for sickness for someone's
that sick no matter what the problem is, I think the
body recovers the fastest when it does get the rest.
DICK: Well, that's true to a degree but too
much rest might mean that there's something wrong.
STEVE: Well, well, you know yourself,
0 0 ,1
though, Dick, that he's healed I think he -- didn't
he talk for six hours the other night? who was it, was
it was it your no, it wasn't you. I think it was
with Henry, for about six hours I think it was.
DICK: Yeah, I think he did. I think he did.
STEVE: And then, in fact, even John told me
last night even how he - of course, he had been
listening and, and to some of the subject matter of
what was being spoken about and his reaction to that.
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: So, I mean the truth is I mean he
expends a lot of energy in the condition he is to talk
on the phone for that length of time, pouring out that
much of his soul into what he's trying to say and reach
out to people like yourselves. So, then, the next
thing you know, he's back sleeping again. So, that,
you know, this is the way it's been.
DICK: Sure, I understand that. The only
thing is my ~- I guess our concern is is that a
sickness is one thing, a wound is another.
STEVE: Right.
DICK: There's a chance for infection and
peritonitis and gangrene and those kinds of things.
So, you know, sleeping, while it, it's a recuperative
thing that we all want to do when we're sick, it's a
little different when you have a gunshot wound.
O O 4,
STEVE: Yeah, I know, but we're keeping an
eye on him.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: He seems to be doing okay so far.
Every now and then, of course,
he makes a movement or even if
he'll get a lot of pain in, of
Yeah, someone's just
here. Let me see what it says
DICK: Okay.he'll be talking or if
he does make a movement,
course, that area.
showing me'a message
here.
STEVE: Indiscernible! regards to news
briefings mentioned. Our needs are being made since
there's still children in there. Okay. They --
the women
milk, you know,
agent, --
DICK: Hartnet?
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
you know, a lot
DICK:just came with a note saying, where's
I mean - what's his name again,
- Bob Ricks?one of
the
the
No, that was Mr. Hartnet, I believe.
Anyway, they made the statement that,
of this is being met, which is not so.
well, I think --
STEVE: Bob -- okay, let me go through this
list here. You asked --
DICK: Okay. Okay, go ahead. In fact, I'll
jot them down while you're doing it.
9 U .3
STEVE: Okay. Let me take a look here. One
of the statements that were made was D.K. or David
hasn't said anything about any - or anymore about the
bodies that are inside.
Well, you know, we've been harping since I
believe it was yesterday on the one that is -- that we
do have very clearly. We know who he is. And we've
been trying to do something about that but it came
across contrary to that. And, of course, you guys hid
the fact that we do, in fact, want to get that body
out. Okay?
DICK: Okay. What's the next item?
STEVE: Let me take a look here. And this
statement is given again in regards to that body. They
could give no predictions if and when the body will be
removed.
Well, that's ~ he didn't go on to say it was
because it was your choice. I wish you would have told
them that.
DICK: You know what? I felt a little
uncomfortable with that answer, too. I wish you -- I
wish you would have added because we're primarily
concerned right now with the living and we want to get
aid to the living and we'll deal with, with, with the
dead when we, when we can.
STEVE: Right.
O O 4,
DICK: I wish you had gone on to say that
because, obviously, all are emphasis here is --
STEVE: I like honesty, you know. I mean
this is the thing that will get a lot of these people,
if you would want them to come walking out, those are
the things they're looking for. They're really are.
You know, I can't move anybody here. They're not going
to listen -- when it comes right down to it, they came
here because they heard David opened the book. So,
that, you know, that's the bottom line. But for them
to make a choice contrary to that, they might, but it
would have to be based upon a trust relationship that's
been developed by what they're hearing and seeing. And
this is what they're telling me. This is why they keep
on asking me to be a spokes person for them and not to
let them down. They want to have some kind of an
outside line, of course, to the press and so forth.
They want that kind of assurance.
Anyway, another statement was made after that
again about bodies and the decomposition question. And
the agent would like to get all out of the compound.
Well, you know, why not the one that we already have
even.
What other questions do you have here you put
before me? Someone just handed me a statement that
they well, anyway, a couple of these women, they
iO O 45
just dropped that note to me about the milk, that it --
this has been now like what two days, I believe, at
least. So, I mean before - I mean it's - you've got
to remember, like I told you and I think I said it to
John Cox, that if need be, they'll forego milk.
They'll give the baby water, whatever else.
DICK: No, I know you said that.
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: I know you said that and --
STEVE: Okay. I mean I'm just telling you as
it is with their mind, the way they're thinking and the
way they're looking at it.
DICK: Yeah, I understand that and I told --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: and I told you, and please pass on
to them --
STEVE: All right.
DICK: - I'd be happy to drive down the lane
with those - with that milk --
STEVE: I believe that.
DICK: - and the response I'm getting in
answer to that question is that, we're, we're prepared
to, to provide all the necessary and desirable aid to
those children. And it's up to the parents to insure
that that happens and - by coming out and bringing the
kids out with them.
STEVE: Okay. So,
milk, then, and -- I'll tell
we'll be talking in a couple
DICK: All right.
make it that long because --
STEVE: Well, it'S
while cause these --
DICK: I know.
STEVE:
DICK: Well, we'll
and you and I --
questions for me.
STEVE:
DICK: Concerning,U .6
we'll just forget the
you what, well, you can --
of hours then.
Well, let's, let's don't
going to take me a little
-- people are all over the place.
have some of those folks
I know, I know you have some more
I'll try to get those questions down.
you know, the procedures
when you come out. I know those things are of an issue
with you and with others --
STEVE: Well, sure they are.
DICK: -- in there, and I'm prepared to
answer those questions for you and --
STEVE: All right.
DAVID: - to make you feel
about that process and that proceduremore comfortable
because I know it
scares people. I've been doing this job for a long
time and it's very concerning to people because they're
not sure, it's the unknown, it's the fear of the
unknown. You're comfortable there. You're fearful
that when you come out, what is going to be done. I
can answer those questions for you. I'm prepared to do
that. And we will do that. And I think you'll feel
very comfortable with the - with what we're trying to
do to make sure that you're handled both under lawfully
and comfortably and, and in a way that, that you'll
feel safe.
STEVE: Uh-huh .
DICK: And, and we're doing that. And that's
all we want, is your safety and the safety of everyone
here. The kids especially, all of us want to insure
the kids safety first and foremost but things have
been done here to insure that when you come out, that
you're, that you're going to be handled very, very
quickly, very compassionately, and so that you can get
your folks back to your families as soon as possible.
And, certainly, I'm not going to lie to you,
there are going to be some charges with, with some
folks but the majority of the folks are going to be --
are going to be interviewed and, and they're going to
get an opportunity to, to tell us what happened. And
then they're going to be reunited with, with family
members, with the kids and that sort of thing.
So, please pass that on to the folks in
there.
STEVE: All right.
I O .8
DICK: And then, and then I know they're
going to have questions. You gather those questions
and we'll go through that procedure, how it's done, why
it's done and the accommodation we're making to you
folks in there to insure that you're not, you're not
concerned and your concerns are needless as -- in terms
of what's going to be done because it will be done in,
in an appropriate fashion right here with a magistrate
right here. You're not going to have to go, you know,
any distance, and you'll be bused over here and --
together.
STEVE: Uhhuh.
DICK: And we'll deal with those issues. All
right?
STEVE: All right.
DICK: All right. I'll get back to you,
then, not too distant future. Get, get some of those
questions and you and I can discuss those questions
while somebody else is getting the names of those other
folks and the people that they might want to contact.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: Talk to you in a little bit.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: Good bye.
DICK: Bye.
Q I ,9
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
well.
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE.
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE:*'k**
Hello.
Hello, is this Dick?
It is, Steve, but I can't hear you
Yeah.
Let me, let me call you back.
All right.
Well, here we go.
Okay. Here we go.
Here we go.
Yeah, we're having our afternoon or
our evening worship right now. I wanted to let you
know. But at the same time, we were going to play a
cassette tape, we can't find it. And I believe it was
left in David's car in the front. So, we're going to
send somebody out to get that cassette tape which is
probably on the dashboard of his car.
DICK:
We can't do that.No, no, we can't, we can't do that.
STEVE: Well, you, you let your men know
because we're going to do it. You can do what you want
to do but --
DICK: Well, listen, I have a very - what I
think that you and David will consider a very important
question that --
U O .0
STEVE: All right.
DICK: you're going to have to entertain.
STEVE: I mean because, you know, this is the
same kind of a - I just want to say in regards to that
reaction, it's a reaction to what's happening on the
premises still.
DICK: Uhhuh.
STEVE: So, if you make your movements wrong,
you don't talk to us, the same will be so. You want to
take one of our people out, well, it will begin again.
DICK: Well, we're not going to do that. We
have a - we have a --
STEVE: Okay. Well, that's --
DICK: - proposal to, to, to talk with you
about.
STEVE: Okay. I'll - I'm open for that but
DICK: Let's --
STEVE: - but let me say he wants to get the
cassette tape out of his car. It's part of our worship
service.
DICK: Hold on. Let me, let me -- give me a
minute, okay?
STEVE: All right.
DICK: What time - let me get back to you in
just a minute. Okay?
Q O 51
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: You, you hold on --
STEVE: No problem. We'll be unarmed, of
course.
DICK: Well, listen, don't send anybody out
until I talk to people about it, okay?
STEVE: All right.
DICK: I'll get back to you in just a couple
of minutes.
STEVE: Okay. I'll be back. Okay, thanks,
Dick.
DICK: Byebye.
* 9: * *
STEVE: Hello.
DICK: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
DICK: Dick.
STEVE: Okay. Hi, Dick.
DICK: Yeah. Listen, I just didn't want you
to send somebody out there until people knew what was
happening because, you know, people get after these
periods of time, sometimes there's some, some fatigue
and that sort of thing. So, we don't want to do
anything without talking to one another.
Now, where, where is this tape now?
STEVE: Where is the which? The tape -- it's
O I 5,
in the black Camero which is sitting right in the front
of the building, just a little off I think it's just
left of the front door.
DICK: All right, right out front with the
vehicles in front?
STEVE: Exactly, very clear in the open and
everything.
DICK: All right. That you know, that's
fine but, again, the reason I was concerned about you
doing it before I cleared is cause I just wanted to
make sure that your fellow comes out safely and that
our people knows he's coming out and that sort of
thing.
STEVE: well, you know, like I said, you
know, I mean it almost seems funny at times because,
number one, they're all in armored tanks and so forth
and so --
DICK: Let's - you know, we don't, we don't
need to quarrel about that. We know that. I just want
to make sure that he isn't --
STEVE: I know.
DICK: And no weapons.
STEVE: You know, it has bothered me, though,
that you expect that from me and then on the other
hand, these guys are digging on our property, moving
around, things that they shouldn't be touching.
DICK:
to discuss.
STEVE:
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
service from --
STEVE:
DAVID:
STEVE:
in it and --
DICK:
STEVE:Well, that's one of the things we want
All right.
I want to discuss directly with David.
All right.
Now, you're talking about a prayer
Yes.
from what period?
Right - well, right now we're still
Okay.
-- let me see. Let me look down at
my watch here. So, it will probably be another 45
minutes.
DICK:
STEVE:
DICK:
quarter to four.
to David because
STEVE:
few minutes after
DICK:
STEVE:Let's make it it's 3:19 now. Let's
Okay.
- let's make it at a quarter to - a
I'll call you back. I need to talk
I have --
Well, let's make it at 4:00 or just a
Let's make it 4:00.
All right.
DICK: High - 4:00 straight up, and I need
O Q 54
to talk to David because I have, I have some -- what I
think he'll find to be very important and interesting
development.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: All right.
STEVE: Very good. I'll talk to you then.
DICK: All right. Very well.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
DICK: Bye.
End of Tape #67!
I I 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #68
3/6/93
3:59 p.m. - 4:58 p.m.
Q Q 2
1 Tape ea!
2 STEVE: Hello.
3 DICK: Steve?
4 STEVE: Yes.
5 DICK: DiCk.
6 STEVE: Okay.
7 DICK: Is David there?
8 STEVE: Just a moment.
9 DICK: Okay.
1O STEVE: Yes, here he is. Just hang on.
11 DICK: Good. Thank you.
12 DAVID: Hello, Dick.
13 DICK: Good afternoon, David. How are you
14 doing?
15 DAVID: Oh, we're doing all right. Is this
16 Dick?
l7 DICK: It iS.
18 DAVID: Okay.
19 DICK: You feeling a little better? I
20 understand you were feeling --
21 DAVID: Oh, yes.
22 DICK: -- a little tired this morning.
23 DAVID: Yeah, we -- we're, we're, we're
24 recovering.
25 DICK: Did you ever send anybody out to get
that tape?
C O 3
DAVID: Did we send anybody out to get the
tape yet, Steve? No, not yet.
DICK: Are you still considering it?
DAVID: He said that he was waiting on you.
You said you were going to call back or something.
DICK: Oh, he misunderstood. I said, go
ahead and send a fellow out to get the tape and I would
call back to talk to you about what I think is an
interesting proposal here. And that you could go ahead
and send your man out for the tape.
DAVID: All right.
DICK: So, I, I'm - you know, we
misunderstood one another there.
DAVID: So, what are we trying to develop
now?
DICK: Okay. Well, are you going to send
your fellow out to pick up the tape?
DAVID: Yes.
DICK: I want to go ahead and relay that if
you're going to do that.
DAVID: Go ahead, go ahead and send the guy
out to get the tape.
DICK: Okay. Listen, --
DAVID: Well, let me -- it's probably on the
dash or right there near the console.
DICK: Okay.
O O 4
DAVID: Right, it's the demo tape.
Unidentified people talking in the
background!.
DAVID: well, it's amazing none of those
tanks blew up, you know it? Yeah.
DICK: Okay. Are you going to start him out,
David?
DAVID: Are they starting off yet? Go ahead.
Pause!
DAVID: It just, it just takes one person for
the tape. It's just one tape.
DICK: Yeah. Just ask them to go ahead and,
you know, send one out to pick it up.
DAVID: What, they want to get that gas tank?
where's it at? No, where at? Oh, just right there at
the door?
Unidentified persons talking in the
background.!
DAVID: Well, he, he can just grab that when
he comes in. Anyway, he wants, he wants to grab a
propane tank on the, on the way back. It's just right
there at the door.
DICK: That's okay.
DAVID: Says it's all right. It's amazing
those tanks didn't get, didn't get hit.
DICK: well, I guess so. I guess so.
O O 5
DAVID: I've never seen one of them blow but
I hear they're pretty potent.
DICK:
DAVID:
tanks and, and they're what - they're like what, ten
gallons, five gallons --
DICK:
barbecue, is, is
DAVID:
DICK:
out?
DAVID:
DICK:
DAVID:
he comes around,
can drag it in.
DICK:
attention.
DAVID:
They've, they've
from, from Deuteronomy 32, the Song of Moses, all the
way through the prophetic writings. They -- they're,
they're awesome young men and awesome young women.
DICK:
DAVID:
know, I can't see whereYeah. 1
92
They just filled up some propane
Yeah, I think the normal one, with the
10 pounds, 20 pounds.
They're right there by the door.
So, you're going to send your fellow
Yeah, he's coming out now.
Okay.
No. One guy to get the tape and when
just grab the ear of the tank and he
Yeah. Unless they want to get shot.
I think that probably got their
Oh, you know, these guys don't care.
learned every prophecy all the way
Oh, is he, is he on his way out now?
Yeah, as far as I know. I'm -- you
they're at right where I'm at
I Q 6
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: -- but they should be coming out.
DICK: All right.
DAVID: I sure wish you guys knew, knew the
reasons for the Bible.
DICK: Well, you know, Dave, over the last
few, you know, few days that we've had an occasion to
talk here and especially yesterday and today, I've been
hearing a lot of sincere concern in your mind. And, of
course, I've got those same concerns, and I want to
work with you, and I think I've shown you we're trying
to work with you. And for the last couple of hours
when I haven't been here and I know we haven't had a
lot of conversation today --
DAVID: Well, I've been sleeping off and on.
DICK: Sure. And I spoke --
DAVID: I've been trying to walk now.
DICK: Well, that's good.
DAVID: And -
DICK: Get up and do a little walking and try
to get some of the muscle tone back.
DAVID: well, I get up and then my head goes
real light. They say it's just a loss of blood.
DICK: Yeah.
DAVID: So, we're trying to get some iron and
O I ,
some spinach and stuff but --
DICK: Sure. Well, you know, again, I've
been hearing this concern and we've, we've reached a
point now where we're not making a lot of headway and
things haven't been working out really well for, for
the last half of yesterday and part of today. So, what
I've done and, again, why we've not been out there
speaking with you today is because I've gone up to the
bosses and I've taken upon myself to, to take this up
to them and suggest to them that, listen, I'm trying to
deal with David. He's trying to deal with me. And it
looks like our position is that he doesn't fully trust
me and I haven't been able to fully trust him. And
we've got to do something to show good faith on both
sides. And we've kicked this back and forth at some --
for some time. And I've really gone out on a limb to
represent you guys out there in an effort to get this
done. And a couple of things we've done -- we
mentioned that - Steve yesterday was indicating that
they're concerned or you're concerned that you haven't
been able to get the word out. So, I -- what I've done
is gone to the bosses and said, listen, please, in one
of these next press conferences, if you can, mention
that the folks inside are concerned that they're not
going to be able to get their word out for fear that
the government, the F.B.I is going to try to suppress
O I 8
1 the thoughts of those inside. So, they -- they're
2 aware that, that you're concerned about that.
3 they've, you know, responded very favorably.And
That
4 isn't going to be the case. So, I've asked them to
5 make reference to that so that the media knows that at
6 some point in time there's going to be a full
7 accounting from you folks as to your perspective in
8 there.
9 In addition to that, I know you're,
10 very concerned about the Bradleys, and I know
11 DAVID: No, we're not worried about
12 -- that's why we haven't done nothing to them
13 know --you're
that --
the Brad
yet. You
1
14 DICK: No, I'm talking about the property
15 line.
16 DAVID: Yeah. Well, the thing of it is is
17 like I say, we've allowed, we've allowed you all to
l8 infringe upon your statements and but, honestly, one
19 thing -- our main problem is, and I understand it very
20 clearly, is that it's naturally, it's naturally the
21 skeptics point of view to believe that a person doesn't
22 -- a God doesn't talk to man but --
23 DICK: But, Dave, let me, let me finish my
24 thought here because, you know, again, --
25 DAVID: Okay.
DICK: -- I've, I've really put out S ome92
_ _ __7__i_77__i_.
U Q 9
1 effort to get this done for you and the commanders here
2 have, have really listened at length to this, and we've
3 tried to
4 for you.work together here to come up with a proposal
And we think that you're going to be happy
5 with it and it will get us off of this impasse. And,
6 of course, to get this, this incident resolved, it's,
7 it's going to - it's going to require that the two of
8 us work together. So, what I'd like you to do here,
9 I'd like
10 folks inyou to commit to the release of, of all the
there and we will agree to withdraw all the
11 Bradley vehicles from your property line. And in, in
12 doing this, I know you would be reluctant and I would
13 be reluctant to do one thing without the other person
14 agreeing
15 And what
16 send out
17 the same
18 withdraw
19 And thenso we need to work out this mutual trust.
would I - what I would propose is that you
four people, children, women, if you like. At
time as they're walking up the road, we'll
all the Bradley vehicles from your property.
following those developments, that is the kids
20 leaving and the vehicles withdrawing, to be followed by
21 the rest
22
23of the folks inside.
DAVID: Okay. One second.
DICK: And we can talk about, you know, --
24 the way that we need to do this is just the way we
25 italked about it the first day when you folks were going
to leave in that fashion.
9 U .0
STEVE: Okay. This is, this is Steve. Go
ahead.
DICK: What happened to David?
STEVE: He handed the phone to me. He wanted
me to hear what you had to say.
DICK: Okay. well, as I proposed to him,
we've had some problems over the last day or so working
out a way we can get past this point where we seem to
be hanging up. There's obviously a reluctance on your
part to accept that we're trying to do everything we
can on your behalf. So, as I was telling David, the
reason I haven't called in today is because I've gone
to the commanders up here and made some requests of
them and we've been talking at length, trying to,
trying to resolve this impasse. And, so, we're, we're
offering this proposal that if you folks in there will
commit to coming out of, of the compound, we'll
withdraw the Bradleys from the property, back across
from the property lines. And as we're withdrawing the
Bradleys, you send four kids or four adults up the, up
the path there as we're moving. So that way we know
that you're going to be committed to your part of the
agreement and you know that we're committed to our part
of the agreement. And then once those Bradleys are off
the property, then the rest of you folks go ahead and
follow the kids out or those first four individuals out
O U 1.
in the same fashion as --
STEVE: Well, I should actually - I should
have you save your breath because right now you and I
are so far apart, Dick, that there's no sense in even
talking.
DICK: Okay. well, offer me a suggestion.
STEVE: You need to go back -- you need to go
back to the commanders --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: - and start talking sensibly and
then you can call me when you've got something
worthwhile to talk about.
DICK: Well, let's, let's don't -- let's
discuss this, then.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: what, what --
STEVE: Dick, David would like to talk to you
again. He'd like to give you a little study. One
thing is for sure, is what he's saying, you don't
believe what he's telling you. But you would here,
here he is. He wants to talk to you again. Okay?
DICK: All right. I'll be happy to.
STEVE: Here he is.
DICK: We'll work this out.
DAVID: Say, Dick, I, I appreciate your offer
and from your perspective I understand that, that, you
C Q 12
know, your offer is a good offer and everything and I
would love to do it.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: I would just love to adhere to it
but, remember, you have to negotiate with your bosses
and I have only one boss.
DICK: I understand. What would you offer in
return? I mean what, what is your position there? I
mean give me, give me a reason to go back to my boss.
You said that was a good proposal. What, what is your
opposition to it?
DAVID: You see, I have already agreed to
come out and everybody else with us.
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: You see, what we're failing to
understand is that the Gospel of Christ, the one God,
the one church, all the New Testament writers point to
a place in heaven. And through the mediation of the
prophets, the apostles, there will be inscriptured a
record of truth that in the latter days --
DICK: David, excuse me for a second.
Listen, please, listen to me for a minute. I spent a
lot of hours this morning, as did the commanders here,
going over this. And you suggested you felt it was a
reasonable proposal but you, obviously, have some
opposition to parts of it. So, can we work out -- work
9 I .3
this thing out? And then I'm perfectly willing to
listen to, to you, as I have in the past, and I think
I've shown you that but let me go in with, with an
alternate plan to the commanders and --
DAVID: Well, Dick --
DICK: -- so that we can get it worked out.
DAVID: Dick, let me, please, for -- you
know, bear with this fool just a moment, you know,
just, just bear with this fool just a moment.
DICK: Okay. Can we, can we -- can I make
you a counter proposal here? Can, can I give you some
time? Let's, let's work back and forth here. I'm
perfectly willing to listen and I appreciate your
taking the time to talk to me in this fashion.
DAVID: Well, we love you.
DICK: Well, I understand that.
DAVID: We, we love you -- every one of you
guys. We love the commanders. We have no grievances
against you.
DICK: Isn't this a significant offer, David?
DAVID: Well, look, it's, it's as good as the
original offer, you know, before the Bradleys -- your
show of might does not scare us at all.
DICK: This is not a show of might at all,
not at all.
DAVID: No, what I'm saying is is that, you
U I 1.
see, the very show of look, you, you've been working
a lot, right?
DICK: Uhhuh .
DAVID: I've been working since 1985. I was
shown at that time -
DICK: David, David, offer me, please - this
is very important that we - this is a very significant
development that we need to talk about. And let's,
let's spend some time talking about this. And then,
then, please, I'll be happy to listen to you because
it's worth listening to. I, I'm certainly in agreement
with that but let us work out this ~- some details here
so that others that I can pass this on and it will be
considered and we can work on this. This is, this is a
very important time. This is, this is Saturday. We've
been here seven days.
DAVID: It's the Shabbat Sabbath, right?
DICK: It is, it is. And it's an important
date for you and for us.
DAVID: It's the day - it's the day that,
that the nations in the world, they, they have profaned
the Sabbath. They don't know the meaning.
DICK: Absolutely, and we're trying to
demonstrate our goodwill to you, David, and I think we
have. I'm working hard on this.
DAVID: What if God was trying to offer you a
C I 15
way out of a, of a, of a present oncoming disaster of
this nation, what if God has a witness to this nation
because God is ready to deliverate his people from the,
from the bands and the rulerships of all nations, and
what if God is really going to set up his kingdom like
they did in ancient times.
DICK: Well ,
DAVID: And what if the prophet Daniel and
the prophets who foretold the rise and fall of empires,
what if God is not ready to, to show his mercy to the
last generation of men on earth and what if God is
ready to, to judge the nations of these - as foretold
by these prophets.
DICK: Then we'll have to be prepared.
David, we'll have to be prepared.
DAVID: And how can you prepare it if you
deny his word by ignorance, willful ignorance to his
word?
DICK: I don't mean to be ignorant at all and
I'm willing to work with you but this --
DAVID: But you --
DICK: - but this is a genuine effort on our
part to try to work this out, David, and, please, work
with me.
DAVID: I -- hey, look, I am working with
you. I'm listening to you. But understand this is
U O 1.
also a political matter. we are to serve God first and
then --
DICK: David, I'm serving God also.
DAVID: No, the God that you serve is not my
God.
DICK: Well, --
DAVID: Your God has not given to you a
knowledge of his will. Your God is not the God of the
prophets.
DICK: David, offer me a - what offer me
a counter, offer me a counter proposal that you can
deal with that we can deal with. Offer me one right
now. I know you, --
DAVID: Okay.
DICK: -- you said that this was an ernest
agreement. Offer me something that I can take into my
bosses and let's, let's face it, David, we have to work
together, a little give, a little take. It's a classic
example of we have to work together and work with one
another and make, you know, some lateral movements and
forward movement.
DAVID: Sure.
DICK: And we're willing to do that. Help us
resolve this.
DAVID: Your - I would love to. Your
considerations are acknowledged of God. That's one
9 U .7
thing I can tell you. But the little tape that I sent
out, the basic little tape that people are trying to
tear apart, I am not having the liberties or the
freedoms to be able to be countered on what I have
taught.
DICK: Uh-huh .
DAVID: Now, it's like this. If a man, any
man, is able to make a statement, it's natural amongst
the sons of men for people to perceive that statement
in different areas of perception. Now, that's why in
a, in a, in a meeting or in a encounter, even with the
ATF agents in front of their little news media there,
when a man makes a statement, someone else says, now,
can you explain that to me more thoroughly or can --
about what you just said, did you mean that - and, of
course, a person is allowed to clear himself. I used
additional words. That's not the position we have. I
gave a, I gave a little study on the radio. I was told
to make it as short as possible. It took 58 minutes to
get the one point out. Now, the question --
DICK: That's because we wanted to make sure
that you had the opportunity to get the whole message
on, on the air, David.
DAVID: Right.
DICK: Our experience has been - and when
have you ever heard on television - I don't - you
I I 1.
know - on any network or on the Christian Broadcast
Network, anybody make a, a, a, you know, a plea that
you were able to do for 58 minutes. It's unheard of in
history, in the history of the broadcast industry. You
were given a golden opportunity there and you took it.
And you did -- you made the best of it. You did a
terrific job. The impact from
was, was unbelievable. It was
favorable. We just - we fell
agreement but we're willing to
DAVID: No, we didn't fall short of that.
It's just what took place was is that the one that I
communicate with, my God, stated to wait cause things
are happening right now, things that you cannot see
with your eyes. But if you knew the time of which we
were in, if you understood the
prophets, if you believed the words of the prophets and
the words of Christ and if you
heaven that sits on the throne
contained in seven seals, then
trembling in your shoes right now. All of you would
be. If, if these young men knew the events that are to
take place here shortly, they,
be so far away from here they wouldn't even want to
come around this place.
DICK: David, listen, listen to me for athe, from the public
overwhelmingly
short of the original
go on from there.
prophetic rise of the
realize that God in
has these words
you would be shaking and
they would, they would
O O 1.
second. I'm willing to go a step further, you know.
I'm putting my job on the line for you here, okay. I'm
willing to go into the bosses and tell them the women
and children are coming out. Now, that, that is --
certainly should be acceptable to you, is it not?
DAVID: Well, if they wish to, they may. I
mean I am not holding anybody --
DICK: No, but I mean it's going to be up to
you to go ahead and send those folks out and we'll move
the Bradleys off the property.
DAVID: well, do, do you mean to tell me that
you want me to lose my job with God by making a -- an
order or something that I don't have the right to make?
DICK: No, it's -- you know, I'm not asking
you - I --
DAVID: You just do not believe that -- and
God speaks to me.
DICK: No, David, what I'm suggesting is that
these folks have a lot of confidence in you. If you go
to them --
DAVID: Well, why do they have a lot of
confidence in me?
DICK: Because of, of your gifts and your
abilities.
DAVID: I have never lied to them. I've
always shown them the biblical truth unlike what this
U I 20
nation and other nations have offered through their
ministries.
DICK: But earlier on you were willing to do
this, David. And we're not asking you to come with
these folks.
DAVID: And I'm sure we're willing to do
this.
DICK: we're asking you to send the women and
children so that women can care for the children that
have already come out and that the rest of the children
will come out. And, and we'll move those Bradleys.
David, help me out. I've been trying to represent you.
DAVID: Dick, I would love to. I would love
to but you're not representing me. God's going to
represent me.
DICK: I know but you can help me out, okay,
as a personal favor to me.
DAVID: Dick, I - okay, look.
DICK: As a personal favor to me.
DAVID: Here's how I could help you out.
would you like to know the seven seals?
DICK: Certainly. I'll be happy to learn
about the seven seals, but I need to go to my bosses --
DAVID: You got -- do you got your Bible?
DICK: I'll be happy to go with it but,
please, let's do this first. And I will sit here and I
U O 21
will listen to the seven seals. I want to understand
about the seven seals but I have to go to my bosses and
represent a proposal to them. So, work with me on
this, David. Please, work with me, and I will work
with you. I, I've, I've shown you that. I, I made a
sincere effort. The bosses have made a sincere effort,
but I believe I can go into them and convince them that
this is the thing to do. And I will be happy to do
that. And as soon as I return from that, the two of
you or the two of us, we'll, we'll, we'll get - I want
to learn about the seven seals but --
DAVID: D0n't -
DICK: - but --
' DAVID: -- tell them that I said that I'm
going to send the women and children out.
DICK: Well, I'm certainly not going to tell
them --
DAVID: What I said, it still goes along with
Jim, you know. I am ready and willing and so is
everybody else to, to leave this place. We're witness
in this generation. This organization is a witness
unto God. Now, when our God who has shown me these
mysteries tells me to wait, then I must wait. But
everybody else here makes their own decisions.
DICK: I understand.
DAVID: God does not speak to them like God
. 22
speaks to me, you see. That is, that is obvious. That
is a reality. But there is a young lady here who's
already stated that she does want to leave. And, so,
you know, I'm not hindering her at all, you know, but
she does want to leave. But the thing of it is is
that, you know, evidently, Steve -- who was talking to
last night Steve? No. Well, who was you talking to
last night that - the last guy. John. I've never
talked to him, did I?
DICK: David, did you see -- did you see Bob
Ricks on television today?
DAVID: I didn't see much of anything today.
DICK: All right. Well, Mr. Ricks is a very
devout Christian and he prays to God, as we all do.
And it took him a lot to make these concessions. And I
believe the reason he did that is because he prayed, he
prayed at length and he came back and he said, Dick,
this is, this reasonable. I've given a lot of thought.
I've prayed about it. And this is reasonable. And
we're, we're willing to concede, we're willing to work
because we know that he's sincere in his belief. We
want to show him we're equally sincere. And this is --
this is what it's going to take, this kind of effort,
prayer, and those kinds of things. And Mr. Ricks did
that and --
DAVID: well, did God talk to him?
O C 23
DICK: He told me that he prayed to God and
he came back with this, with this answer.
DAVID: Okay. So, God spoke to him, then.
DICK: That's, that's correct.
DAVID: Well, why would God tell him one
thing and me another?
DICK: I have no idea but what, what he's
telling you --
DAVID: Maybe God's trying to get us to fight
or something, you know.
DICK: No, that's not it at all.
DAVID: You've got to watch this God.
DICK: What he's trying to do is to, to
resolve this with no further injury. And we've made
great strides toward that. There has not been any
further injury. we've talked together reasonably for
days. we will continue. Let's work together on this.
Help me out, personally. I went in there. Help me.
Help me and help yourself at the same time.
DAVID: Oh, you've got a one track mind, I
mean.
DICK: It is. It's safety, safety for
everybody and the safe release of your people and the
- and given you a chance to use your gifts --
DAVID: The safety aspect is over. I'm the
one that did everything to achieve safety, not you, not
O I 2.
your organization, not your bureaucracy. I'm the one
that made an alliance with Robert Gonzales.
DICK: Work with me. Work with me. Forget
Robert Gonzales. Work with me.
DAVID: No, let's do not forget a reality
that has brought us to this point. You see, I'm the
one that first sent young men over to talk with these
friends across the street. I'm the one that told
Robert that everything that he wants to know about me
or this organization, I would show him. No, but see,
these individuals, the way their system works, set a
time schedule, you know. They wanted to come in here
and bust us up. They wanted glory. They wanted to be
great. They wanted to have something to talk about,
something to brag about, you know, and it didn't turn
out that way.
DICK: They certainly got none of those
things.
DAVID: All of, of the system's fault --
Robert and his pride and arrogancy, he hasn't even
tried he hasn't even called me yet, you know. I
asked, I asked Jim to, to get him to contact me. You
know, I want, I want to be able to talk to him and ask
him --
DICK: That may well be arranged.
DAVID: -- and ask him --
"! , 25
DICK: That may well be arranged in the
future but you know what, I was telling Steve this
morning --
DAVID: Do you know --
DICK: - those fellows that were out there
are no longer working because they're being - there's,
there's an inquiry. And you know that Robert, he did
what he was supposed to do. He was given an
assignment.
DAVID: He could have stopped. Yeah, but he
was also given something else, too, the best friendship
he could have ever gotten from anybody.
DICK: You understand that he is a D.E.A
agent, do you not?
DAVID: Oh, I know that Robert --
DICK: I mean an ATF agent, I'm sorry.
DAVID: Yeah. I know what Robert was. I
knew what he was when he first came over.
DICK: Well, then, he's doing - you know,
I'm sure that he had a great deal of difficulty dealing
with those issues.
DAVID: I kept telling him I knew who he was.
DICK: Once he got inside, it's my
understanding that, that he really had to struggle with
his continuing employment with the ATF because of the
things that you taught him. And it was very, very
O I 26
difficult for him. It still continues to be difficult
for him.
DAVID: I know, and that's why I want to talk
to him so I can tell him something that's very
important.
DICK: We -- we're not saying you can't talk
to him.
DAVID: Well, then put him on the phone.
DICK: well, he's not here, like I tell you
DAVID: When you put him on the phone and I
talk to him, then Melissa's going to come out, okay?
DICK: We, we don't even have availability to
him.
DAVID: Yes, you do.
DICK: Is Melissa the gal that you said wants
to come out?
DAVID: Right.
DICK: Well, let's send her out and we'll --
DAVID: No, let's --
DICK: see what we can work with.
DAVID: Well, wait a second. Tell Melissa to
come here. I want to ask her something. I mean,
Robert, you know -- a lot of the guys that are in law
enforcement, you know, they have a -- they have a sense
of right and a sense of wrong and --
U O 27
DICK: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And, you know, they hate drugs and
stuff like that, and I hate drugs. I've always hated
drugs. And no one here takes drugs. You know, and the
thing of it is is that, you know, we, we have one we
have one -- that's one thing about a Christian. Paul
says, be all things to all men. And we've got to find
a bridge to all types. And there's nothing that I ever
wanted more than to have, you know, law enforcement
agencies and stuff to realize the real, really deep
principles of our convictions and our beliefs.
DICK: David, I'll tell you what I'm going to
do. Now, Robert is nowhere around the Waco area. You
know, he's struggling with this whole thing. He's --
DAVID: Well, tell him to come on back.
DICK: The grief that this man is, is
undergoing is much like the grief that you're
undergoing. He, he just can't deal with it now.
DAVID: Well, --
DICK: It's a mandatory thing. His agency
mandatorily sent him out. Now, I will deliver a
message, if I can find somebody that can give him --
those guys are, are sent home. Anytime a law
enforcement officer is involved in a critical incident,
there is absolutely no deviation, they are sent packing
with their family so that they can get away and, and
forget the -- all the agony that was suffered on
sides. And he'll return to duty at some time in
future but this man has told his friends that it
horribly, horribly difficult for him because of,28
both
the
was
of, of
what has happened here due to your teaching. He's even
going to have to see a doctor about this because
having a difficult time with this.he's
DAVID: Well, Melissa, Melissa will come out
DICK: Okay.
DAVID: -- once we get to talk to Robert,
okay?
DICK: well, let me talk to Melissa now. Let
me see if we can work out this thing. But let'sg0
back to the original, original talk that we had here.
Give me something. Let me go into the boss here
DAVID: I just did.
DICK: Offer me --
DAVID: I just did. Jim and all thems kept
telling me that, that they would get in contact with
Robert, that he was around there. Now, you're telling
me opposite.
DICK: Well, give me a message and I'll try
to run Robert down but in the meantime, let's take
Melissa out of there if she wants to go.
DAVID: Here, here's, here's the message.
U U 29
Wait a second.
DICK: David?
STEVE: She's - he's asking a question, do
you want to go? And she's saying, no. And then he
asked her the question, would you go if it allow us to
talk to Robert Gonzales? And she shook her head yes.
Hello?
DICK: I'm still here.
STEVE: Okay. Do you want to talk to the man
on the telephone a little bit? Are you sure?
DICK: Put her on.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: Put her on, Steve, let me talk with
her.
STEVE: Okay, Dick, hang on just a second.
She's shooking shaking her head no but I'm trying --
are you sure you don't want to? Say, hello. He's a
real nice guy. Here -- Dick?
DICK: Yes.
STEVE: Okay, here she is.
MELISSA: Hi.
DICK: Hello, Melissa, how are you?
MELISSA: Okay.
DICK: Okay. How old are you?
MELISSA: Six.
DICK: You're six years old. Good. How --
"! ', 30
why don't you come out and we'll get together with --
and sit down and talk for a while. David has indicated
that you, you can go, you can leave the house. Will
you do that for me?
MELISSA: Yeah.
DICK: Okay. You tell David you want to come
out and talk to Dick, okay? You get your coat on and
you come out and you and I will sit down and talk
together. Can we do that?
MELISSA: Yeah.
DICK: we'll take good --
MELISSA: Bye.
DICK: we'll take Melissa?
MELISSA: Huh?
DICK: We'll take good care of you and we'll
put you together with all the other kids that came out
and --
MELISSA: Yeah.
DICK: - you'll, and you'll get to play with
your friends. And what's your last name, Melissa?
MELISSA: Morrison.
DICK: I'm sorry, honey, what is it?
MELISSA: Morrison.
DICK: Lar -- Morrison, Melissa Morrison?
MELISSA: Yeah.
DICK: Good. Well, you we'll get you
I O 31
together with all the other kids and you can talk to
your friends. Do you, do you have your brother or
sister?
MELISSA: NO.
DICK: Okay. Well, you tell David that you
want to come out now and talk to Dick.
MELISSA: Okay.
DICK: Will you do that?
MELISSA: Yeah.
DICK: Okay. Promise me?
MELISSA: Yeah.
DICK: Okay. You tell David right now that
you want to get your coat and leave.
MELISSA: Bye.
DICK: You there, Melissa?
MELISSA: Yeah.
DICK: Okay. Will you tell him that?
MELISSA: Yeah.
DICK: You go over to him right now and, and
tell him that you'd like to leave and you talk - you
want to go out and talk with Dick, okay?
MELISSA: Okay.
DICK: And we'll give you - we'll give you a
ride, okay?
MELISSA: Okay.
DICK: Okay. Let me talk to David.
ROSE:
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICKI 32
Hello, Dick?
Yes.
Hi, I'm Melissa's mother.
Hi, how are you? What's your name?
Rose.
I'm sorry?
Rose.
Nice to meet you. I understand you're
going to send Melissa out now?
ROSE: Can I just ask you something before I
send her out?
DICK: Certainly.
ROSE: Where are the children being sent to
and we've got conflicting information over here. We've
been told once they're being sent well, they're
being held together.
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSEThat's true.
And then they're being fostered out.
No, that's not true.
That's not true?
No, the kids, the kids are together.
Okay. Can you tell me what's going to
happen to the children?
DICK: At some point in time, we're going to
reunite them with you. As soon as you folks come out,
we're going to reunite, reunite you kids -- with your
I I .3
children and you're going to be giving them the care.
These kids want to get back with their parents.
There's no question about that. we want to get them
back with their parents. And until we can do that, the
kids will be well cared for by caring people. The kids
are all together. We -- did you get a chance to look
at those pictures we sent in to you the other day?
ROSE
right?
DICK
photos in also
ROSE
blank.
DICKWell, you sent the tape as well,
Well, we sent, we sent hard copy
You didn't get a chance to see those?
I saw the photos but the tape was
That's what I understand. I've been
assured that that went in there with something on it.
It must be your equipment in there. But the - yes,
the kids, the kids are all together. They will remain
together. And we want to reunite you with your kids as
soon as you can. Now, my understanding is is that
David has absolutely no objection to you leaving with
your daughter.
ROSE: That's true.
DICK: Why don't you come on out with her and
then you can insure that these kids are together and
being cared for properly?
ROSE: Well, that's not my choice.
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE" 34
It's not your choice?
I mean that's not what I want to do.
All right.
But at the same time, we've also
gotten information coming in that once we come out,
okay, we're going to -- you know, go through the
judicial system and whatever. So, the children might
not be able to be reunited with us. So, then, what
will happen to the children? I mean most of the
children taken out of here have been taken out with
their names and --
DICK: They have.
ROSE: -- their relatives and whose the
contact.
DICK: Well, as I've indicated before, the
kids are being cared for and they're all together. At
some point in time, we're going to reunite them with
you and the other parents in there. And, obviously,
some folks when they come out are going to be detained
temporarily, some maybe even longer than that.
ROSE: Okay.
DICK: However, the kids are going to be well
cared for. And we understand that they came out with
addresses and that's what we want you to do also is to
send, send out an address and a telephone number of a
contact person --
i 35
ROSE: Okay.
DICK: - for us.
ROSE: The parents that's being detained,
well, then what will happen to our children?
DICK: You talking about individually? I
mean, in other words, parents of those - parents that
ROSE: Yes.
DICK: - might be detained, what's going to
happen to the kids?
ROSE: Yeah.
DICK: Well, temporarily, they're going to be
housed together. And, obviously, at some point in time
a decision has to be made in terms of placement but
that's what we're talking about relatives.
ROSE: Some parents will be detained longer
than others, okay.
DICK: Well, that's what the next of kin are
for. In other words, if you send out a message, a
telephone number, an address of grandparents, brothers,
sisters or someone, immediate family member, then every
effort will be made to contact those people and put --
and make them aware of the situation here. And we'll
place the kids with them when --
ROSE: The kids will be placed with their
relatives, right?
I I 36
DICK: Absolutely.
ROSE: Okay.
DICK: Absolutely. That - we wouldn't have
it any other way.
ROSE: And I'm supposed to take your word for
that, right?
DICK: Well, you are. That's exactly -- you
know, if you don't take my word for it, then, then we
can't work this out. I am here to insure your safety
and that of your children. And you have to work me.
As I told David and Steven, we've made every effort to
try to get this thing worked out for the safety of
everyone inside. We've given you the opportunity to
send your children out. We want your children out, and
we want you folks out.
ROSE: Okay. Well, look, I'm going to send
my daughter out, okay?
DICK: All right. And, please --
ROSE: But not because of your word.
DICK: Please. And, also, put -- give us a
message as to who should be contacted relative to your
child and tell the others in there that I'll be happy
to talk to each and every one of them. We care for the
kids. I'm a father. You think that I would allow
something to happen to your children?
ROSE: NO.
U I .7
DICK:
ROSE:
DICK:
rest of the kids?
ROSE:
DICK:
here. I, I've
to you.
ROSE:
DICK:
ROSE:
DICK:
from Australia
ROSE:
DICK:
ROSE:
DICK:
from your family
ROSE:
DICK:
ROSE:
DICK:
worried about your safety, yourgot just oneI just won't do it.
Okay, then. Okay. Well, she'll --
would you pass that message on to the
Sure, I'll do that.
Now, hold, hold on for just a second
more thought I want to pass
You've got what?
I've got one more comment.
Okay.
You know, your family - are, are you
or from England? From England?
Am I from where?
Are you from the United Kingdom?
England, yeah.
Okay. We have inquiries about you
You do have inquiry?
Yes, we have.
Okay. Can you -- go on.
And, you know, obviously, everybody's
family members. And
I'll be happy to give them a message. I'd like --
frankly, I'd like to have you give the message to them
yourself but if, if you won't or can't come out, then I
will do that for
ROSE:
DICK:
out yourself.
ROSE:
for me then.
DICK:
ROSE:
well.
DICK:
ROSE:
the Bible.
DICK:
Bible.
ROSE:
DICK:
ROSE:
should do
DICK:
ROSE:
DICK: ' 38
you.
You'll do that for me.
But, please, please, consider coming
Okay. Well, you can pass a message on
Okay. Give me, give me the message.
You can tell my family I'm fine. I'm
You're well.
And to keep the faith, the truth of
Keep the faith and the truth of the
Yeah. Tell them ~-
Okay.
- I stick by the Bible and they
the same.
Well, --
That's my message.
That's, that's, that's it. Okay. And
the telephone number you're going to send out with the
child?
ROSE:
with her.
DICK:It will be on -- it will be sent out
Okay. Have you got a coat there for
her?
give
head
both ways|, i 39
ROSE: Pardon? Have I got coat?
DICK: Why don't you - I'll tell you what,
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICKme the telephone number, if you have it in your
now, and the address. Then we'll have it covered
Okay.
Okay. What are your parents names?
Morrison.
Yeah, but I'm talking about your first
name -- their first names. Both your, your mother and
father?
number?ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSEN0.
Okay. Your mother?
Yeah.
Okay. What is her name?
Millie.
Millie Morrison?
Yeah.
Okay. And what is her telephone
It's 061 --
Oh, six one --
- 225 --
Two, two five.
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICKO I .0
Twelve zero five.
That's right.
And their address?
Five Talbott Road.
Five -- I'm sorry, I didn't
understand, five, what road?
London or
that goesROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICKTalbott.
Talbott Road, okay.
That's right. That's Ladybond.
Lake --
Ladybond, L-A-D- --
Ladybond?
Yeah.
Okay. And that's in - is that in
England?
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
with
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICKThat's Manchester, England, yeah.
Manchester, England?
Uh-huh.
Okay. And what is - is there a zip
that or some sort of a code?
NO. No.
Okay.
Manchester 14, if you want that.
Manford 14?
Manchester --
Okay. Manchester --
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
them?
DICK
them, yes. We
ROSE
DICK
with them.
ROSE
DICKO 41
Fourteen.
Fourteen.
In England, yeah.
England. All right.
So, you're going to get that out to
We will - we'll be in touch with
will
Okay.
- we will most definitely be in touch
when will that be?
As soon as we're able, as soon as
we're able. We will, we will get to them and then
we'll call you
them.back as soon as we're able to reach
ROSE: Okay.
DICK: Now, is Melissa -- you got Melissa
ready to go here?
ROSE: Well, I'm going to get her ready now.
DICK: Okay.
ROSE: Okay. But she'll come out as soon as
we speak with Robert.
DICK: As soon as you get her together, okay.
ROSE: As soon as we have spoken to Robert.
DICK: Pardon me?
ROSE:
DICK:
ROSE:
DICK:U 42
Pardon?
I'm sorry?
As soon as we've spoken to Robert.
Well, no, that, that can't -- and the
reason we can't do that is because we can't find Robert
right now. Robert, as I told both David and Steven,
Robert is, is not here because Robert - when the law
enforcements are involved -- law enforcement officers
are involved in these kinds of things, they're given
mandatory time off. They are sent away so they can get
away from, from this incident.
ROSE:
DICK:They have?
And so that they can sit down and
write reports and that kind of thing. Now, at some
point in time, we'll be happy to deliver a message to
Robert and, and David will have an opportunity at a
point to confront him. There's absolutely no question
about that. We guarantee that. But
impact on Melissa coming out because
ROSE:
DICK:
and care of your
ROSE:that shouldn't
I know you want --
Well, --
- you're concerned about the safety
daughter.
Well, at the moment -- Anyway, there's
someone here, there's a small child that wants to speak
to you.
DICK: A small child?
U O .3
ROSE:
DICK:Yeah.
Get Melissa out and we'll, we'll work
on the other thing. Why don't you - get her coat on
and we're ready
now. So, tell,to receive her up there at the road
tell David that you want to go ahead
and send her out and then we'll contact the parents,
your parents, your mother, and let her know.
ROSE:
Good bye. Nice
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
you?
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:well, we'll see how things go, okay?
to speak with you.
Bye-bye.
Huh?
Who's this?
Star.
Star, how are you?
Fine.
Good. How's your brother and sister?
Fine.
Good. How's your mom and your dad?
Fine.
How old are you, Star? How old are
Five.
You're five years old?
Yes.
what -- what's your favorite toy?
Barbies.
DICK:
Barbies?
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
little --
doll." 44
Barbies. Have you got lots of
Only two.
Just two Barbies?
I mean I have three cause I have one
well, it's not really a Barbie, it's a little
DICK: A little doll. And my daughter liked
Barbie dolls, too. what's your doll's name?
STAR:
DICK:
didn't give your
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
Barbie.
DICK:I don't know.
You don't give them a name yet? You
doll a name yet?
My two big Barbies.
Two big Barbies.
They're both-- their names are both
Both Barbie. Okay. They're both
blondes, too, I'll bet, aren't they? They have blonde
hair?
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
doing?
STAR:
DICK:I don't know.
white hair?
Yeah.
How are your brothers and sisters
Fine.
Good. How about mamma?
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:I 45
Fine.
Is David there?
Yes.
Could you put David back on the phone
to me? Listen, you be a good girl, okay?
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
STAR:
DICK:
Can you get your
STAR:
DICK:
day and you be a
what your mom and dad
DAVID:
DICK:
DAVID:
names is Barbie.
DICK:Yes.
Okay. You be a real good girl.
Dick?
Yeah. Are you still there? Hello.
Hello.
Are you still there? Can you --
Yes.
- get David for me?
Huh?
Can you get David for me, your dad?
dad for me?
Yeah.
Okay. You have a -- you have a nice
good girl. Will you do that? You do
tell you, okay?
Oh, that hurts so much.
What does?
I have two Barbies and both their
I know I heard that. Did she get
them both at the same time or what?
O I .6
DAVID: Well, I bought all the kids here, the
girls, a little Barbie doll.
DICK: Oh, did you?
DAVID: Yeah. And some of them had Barbies
that were old.
DICK: Uhhuh.
DAVID: So, I bought some extra ones
somehow she ended up with two of them and then
DICK: She had two of them, huh?
DAVID: they had a little Skipper
and a something little, little dolls.
DICK: Well, they can be twins.
DAVID: Yeah, but I -- you know, our
save things and it's so serious yet --
DICK: Sure.
DAVID: -- it's so --and
they had
or
kids
DICK: Well, they sound -- she sounds like a
great little girl.
DAVID: Oh, they're beautiful kids.
DICK: You know, kids are the most fantastic
things in the world.
DAVID: I know that more than
DICK: My kids are growing up and I --
especially when they're small like that.
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
older nowDICK: My kids have grown a little,47
little
and, and those kinds of things that she just
said are gone and they're gone very quickly.
your life
sure .
have
one, two,
ten,two children. I wish we would have
eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen,DAVID: Oh, yeah.
DICK: They grow so quickly. And a part of
leaves when they leave. That, that's for
DAVID: That's true.
DICK: The - my wife and I, we elected to
had more.
DAVID: Yeah, I've got -- let's see, I've got
three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine,
fifteen,
sixteen, seventeen -- I've got about 18 kids.
we've got
Hawaii right now. AndDICK: You've got 18 kids?
DAVID: Eighteen -- yeah, 19. 0h, yeah, 19.
DICK: Boy, they keep you busy, don't they?
DAVID: Yeah, it's, it's --
DICK: You've got 19 kids in there with you?
DAVID: Right, 19.
DICK: Those are your kids, all 19 of them?
DAVID: Yeah. Well, what happens is is that
- we've got two of them, two of them in
they're with their mother.
DICK: Uhhuh.
DAVID: And one is in California. So --
' 48
DICK: well, David, you've got a lot of
memories -- you'll have a lot of memories of those kids
and a lot of good times.
DAVID: Oh, yeah. Well, it's - you know --
DICK: A lot of hard work, though.
DAVID: Well, yeah, to a degree but, no, not
so much. It's -- you know, it's like, it's like when
Isaiah talks, when he talks about Messiah, Paul quotes
in Hebrew, he says, the sign -- he says, referring to
Christ, he says Indiscernible! wonders from the Lord
of Hosts and that's where the Messianic prophesy, they
talk about Messiah and all of his children. It never
was fulfilled 2000 years ago. But the promise is is
not one jot or tiddle, not one jot or tiddle shall pass
from the law or the prophets. They'll all be
fulfilled. So, we have to repeat this, you know. The
truth has to come back around again and the prophecies
that have been obscured and unknown have to be brought
to view and have to be fulfilled.
DICK: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Of course, today we're not in a world
of swords and chariots, you know, as per se. But, of
course, when we have swords that, that are as thunder
and make lightning as fire, then, of course, we're
talking about guns then, aren't we? So, you know, the
scriptures, like I say, the ancient prophets could onlyQ
U O .9
illustrate the means of weaponry and the means of
tactics in their day based upon what they themselves
had. But, anyway --
DICK: David, --
DAVID: Sure.
DICK: -- are we agree or do we agree then
that we're going to send Melissa out then?
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
DICK: Okay. Can you get her ready then?
DAVID: Well, you get Robert ready.
DICK: Well, David, listen, --
DAVID: That's what, that's what they said.
DICK: -- listen to me, please.
DAVID: They said, now, let's talk to Robert.
Ever since I negotiated with Jim, this was supposed to
have been arranged. And Robert was there for the
longest time.
DICK: I know that. I know that. Melissa
said that she wanted to come out. And I'll tell you, I
will, I will get a -- I will get a message. Send, send
Melissa out and then I'll tell you what. Send Melissa
out and you write a message in your own words to --
DAVID: No, I need to talk to the boy --
DICK: -- to Robert.
DAVID: I need to talk to the boy --
DICK: Pardon me?
I O 50
DAVID: -- word to word. I need to talk to
DICK: But let's give him that choice. Let's
give him that choice, much like you're giving the
choice to those folks inside. I will get the message
to Robert. You send Melissa out. You pen a, a
message, and you send it out tomorrow with another
Child ~-
DAVID: ROSE?
DICK: -- and I will get the message to
Robert. And then let him make the choice
DAVID: It's your decision. He's saying,
send Melissa out first and pen a message to Robert and
then leave it up to Robert to whether he calls us or
not. Now, what do you say? Okay. Well, just wait a
second.
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
ROSE
DICK
me, okay. I'm
ROSE
you know, fromDick?
Yes.
I'm not going to do that
Why?
Why?
Listen, you have to work
making every effort to get
Look, you guys have been
the beginning. And you're
have to cooperate with you. Yeah, we'llIokay?
together with
this out --
lying about,
saying we
~ we've beeni
r
I O 5.
cooperating. You guys have been doing all the lying.
DICK: That, that's not true. Please --
ROSE: That's not true?
DICK: -- please, that's not true
ROSE: That is true.
DICK: That's not all true.
ROSE: Well, look --
DICK: I just made a proposal to,
and to Steve as to how we can how we can
out. And I just offered him an opportunityat all.
to David
work things
- you
know, David is telling us that all you folks have the
freedom to make the choice that you do. And my, my
suggestion to him is that I will be very, very happy to
deliver a message to Robert and then let Robert make a
choice, must like the choice that you're able to make.
Right now your daughter has made a choice that she
wants to leave and I know you want her to leave.
ROSE: My daughter - she said she wants to
leave? She said that she would leave once they've
contacted Robert.
DICK: That's not what she said.
ROSE: She said she did not hold on a
minute here. Hold on. I'll put her back on the phone,
okay? Melissa, you tell him whether you want to leave
or not. Do you want to leave?
DICK: That's not --1
92
0 ' 52
MELISSA: Indiscernible!.
DICK: Hi, Melissa. You want to come out and
talk to me, don't you?
MELISSA: Huh?
DICK: You want to come out and talk to me -
End of Tape 68.!
l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 O l 2 3 4 Sl ll lll l l 1 l 222222
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #69
3/6/93
4:58 P.M. 8:08 P.M.
O Q 2
Tape 69!
DICK: Don't you? Tell your Mamma that you
want to go out and talk to Dick and you want to go talk
to the other kids.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Well?
DICK: Do you want to come and talk to Dick
and your friends?
MELISSA MORRISON: N0.
DICK: Oh, come on now. That's not what you
told me. Tell Mamma that's not fair. Tell Mamma you
want to come out. That's, that's not fair.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Hey. What you mean tell
her to tell Mamma it's not fair?
DICK: Well, that's what I'm saying.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Don't speak to her like
that. You asked her the question. She answered you.
DICK: I know.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: She answered no.
DICK: I know. But I heard you talking with
her in the background.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: You never heard me. I
never spoke a word, thank you.
DICK: Some -- well, I, I heard someone say
that.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Well, look. She's made
her decision. I've made my mine. Okay?
O U 3
DICK: Listen. It's up to you.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: That's final.
DICK: It's up to you. If you want to keep
your child there, that's certainly you're choice and
we're not trying to force anybody to do anything,
but --
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Well, look. You get
Robert on the phone and then we can --
DICK: I listen --
MELISSA'S MOTHER: - talk t0 him --
DICK: - I can't get Robert on the phone
right now. I told David I would take a message and
make sure the message was delivered to him, and then
Robert can make his choice. We can't force Robert to
do anything, just like we can't force you to do
anything. We will give him the opportunity. We will
pass the message to him, and we will let him make that
call. Just like you said you'd let your daughter make
the call.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Look. He can do whatever.
He's a law enforcement agent, right? So can you. You
can get Robert to speak to us. That's the decision.
Once Robert has spoken, then she'll come out. She's
told you that and I've told you that. Okay? I have to
take your word for how our children's group is looked
after. You take my word that that will be - DICK:
I I 4
I'll tell you what. If you, as the mother, want to
work that way concerning your child's welfare, then you
do that and you make that decision. That's your
choice. That's your responsibility as a parent to do
that. And if you feel that's the way you want to treat
your daughter, then you treat your daughter that way.
That's fine. I can live with that. You're the one
that's going to have to live with it. Okay?
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Yeah.
DICK: You told me and David told me before
we ever talked to you that Melissa wanted to leave.
And then all of a sudden Melissa will only go --
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Hold on a minute.
DICK: if Robert talks to you.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: I never told you that
Melissa wanted to leave.
DICK: David told me that.
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Melissa David did not
tell you that.
DICK: David --
MELISSA'S MOTHER: David said --
DICK: -- told me very s--
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Melissa, do you want to
leave? She said no. He said, will you leave if we
speak to Robert? And she said okay, yeah.
DICK: But David told me that before he even
spoke to Melissa. He said, we have Melissa. Melissa
wants to leave. And, and you, as the parent, if that
your choice then that's your choice. I'm not going to
try to convince you otherwise. I'm only telling you
that you are responsible for the welfare of that child
MELISSA'S
DICK: --
MELISSA'S
DICK:
MELISSA'S
She's my daughter.
not discernible!.
Look.MOTHER: LOOk
which you know --
MOTHER: LOOk, I --
which you know --
MOTHER: -- know I'm responsible.
And, hey, you don't need to speak
I'm being responsible. Okay?
DICK: That's fine.
MELISSA'S
truth.
DICK: Then that'sMOTHER: I've
your
choice. If that's --
MELISSA'S
DICK: --
MELISSA'S
DICK: --
MELISSA'S
phone back to SteveMOTHER: Okay
what you want
MOTHER: Okay
you do it.
MOTHER: I'll
OI DBVE .
DICK: Very well.told you the whole
choice. That's your
to do --
I'll hand you - th5
S
e
I Q 6
MELISSA'S MOTHER: Okay. Thank you. Bye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE #1 BACKGROUND!:
Not discernible!.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE #2 BACKGROUND!: I
will. I will.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello, Dick.
DICK: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: A couple of our guys happen
to be looking out the window down the road and --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: of course, there's a lot
of law enforcement agents down there. And first one of
our young guys saw some one of the officers down there
flip the finger to him. He looked again and -- well,
he had done it. We got - about a halfhour later,
which is not too long ago, we were told that one of
them actually pulled his pants down and showed his butt
up in the air.
DICK: Well, I tell you what. If somebody
did that, then they're not a responsible individual.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, of course not. I --
DICK: And you know - and I both know that
there are the people ha- the, the world is made up
of people like that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Correct. Correct.
DICK: That's not an --
I I 1
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I --
DICK: -- issue. That's not an issue.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I just thought I'd see what
you had thought about such a thing.
DICK: Well, I think it's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: To tell you the truth, I've
never in my life --
DICK: I think it's unprofessional as heck.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In my life I've never ever
heard of anybody to deal with the sheriffs or with a-
your a- I'm sure your agents --
DICK: Absolutely not.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: would never --
DICK: Absolutely unacceptable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe that.
Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.!
DICK: Absolutely. It, it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, by the way, I will tell
you this for a fact. And this comes --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- from all the women, and
they concur on this that when we were raided by the ATF
agents, when they hit us like they did, four women have
told me they heard these agents saying to some of the
people in the building and so forth -- they called us
O U 8
Mother F'ers --
STEVE SCHNEIDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSDN: And
what else?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON TO STEVE SCHNEIDER: N01:
discernible.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- S Sons of - and, and,
you know, all that -- Unidentified voice in background
not discernible.! -- foul, foul language.
DICK: That also --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Cocksuckers. I didn't
really want to say it, but --
DICK: Steve, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes?
DICK: -- horribly unprofessional. I know
it. You know it. Everyone else that, that might be
involved in that kind of language, it, it's totally
unacceptable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I --
DICK: Totally unacceptable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I'll, I'll tell you the
truth. I mean, it -- is it, is it not a shock to you
to hear that professionals or people that are to be
protectors are, are pulling their pants down and
showing their bare butts?
DICK: Take, take note of that. I want you
to copy that down. I demand --
O I 9
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: - that you copy that down --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. I --
DICK: -- and that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - Will do that.
DICK: -- you convey that message to, to the
people that make the inquiry into this case.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. We'll do so.
DICK: Note that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've, I've never heard of
your department, your agency --
DICK: Absolutely not.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, so, I mean, I - to
tell you the truth, I was amazed --
DICK: I'll tell you what. If, if somebody
did that in my presence, I'd have them fired.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I can believe it.
DICK: I'd have them fired in a second.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I could believe it.
DICK: That's -- absolutely no, no reason to
do that sort of thing. That's not part of the job.
It's just not right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: Listen, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. Sure.
DICK: It was my understanding when I spoke
O C .0
with David that Melissa wanted to leave and was going
to leave and that her mother --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well --
DICK: -- and I talked to her mother --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- and she gave me the information
concerning --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've been sitting right
here just to make sure, you know, that I have it right
also. when you asked her the question, at first the
question was asked do you want to leave. She said no.
And nobody -- I -- nobody by facial expression, by
movement, by anything encouraged her to do either. She
said no. And then the question was well, would you
leave if Ro- if we were able to talk to Robert, was
the next question, and then nobody coerced her. She
said yes. Honestly. And that shocked me, because
she's not that old where I thought she could discern
even really what we were saying. Maybe she's not.
DICK: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But --
DICK: -- if, if that's the way, if that's
the way you folks want to represent it, you go ahead
and do that, okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. I, I'm talking
about I was sitting right here. I'm sitting right
here --
DICK: Listen.
STEVE
DICK:
speaking to me. And I have --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK:
I don't want to
it's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. N0 --
DICK:SCHNEIDER: -- watching.", ll
She was speaking to me. David was
-- absolutely no hearing problem. And
be argumentative about this because
- just another issue that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - no, I'm telling you the
facts. I'm telling you as the first question asked to
her was do you want to leave, she said no. The second
part of the question was in regards to Robert Gonzalez.
She didn't -- you know, the first thing, that she does
not want to leave her mother. But if there is - you
know, if, if we can work it out and she sees that her
mother would like to see her be in safety or whatever
else, well, then she'll pick up on that
DICK: Okay. Again, Steve, I
argue over this. But let, let me just,
tell you what my memory was in talking.
Melissa's name at all. Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: N0. I know
DICK: That was brought up byand has.
don't want to
let me just
I didn't know
you didn't.
I, |, 12
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you didn't.
DICK: -- by David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: By David.
DICK: And he --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
DICK: -- said that Melissa wanted to leave
and we, we were preparing for her to leave, and then
Robert's name was mentioned. And, and I told, I told
David, you know, much like --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, let's back up a
little bit further. You've got that incorrect. I was
sitting here. He said there was a woman that made
herself known that she wanted to leave, and I was kind
of surprised to hear that, because I know nothing about
that. Remember that? The first --
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - part Of the
conversation --
DICK: Um-hum. And then --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- on the phone?
DICK: - Melissa's name came up.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. And then all of a
sudden he started talking about Robert Gonzalez, and
then --
DICK: Then it became --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- then Melissa's --
I O 13
DICK: one --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- name came up. Melissa
is a little girl. She's not a woman.
DICK: I know that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wait, now.
DICK: NO.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Melissa's a little girl, in
the first place, not a woman, as he stated. So, you're
getting that confused, Dick. You really are.
DICK: Okay. Well, let's, let's move on.
Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: I'm not --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. No --
DICK: -- even going to argue --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- no, I just --
DICK: - that point.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I just wanted to clear
the air. I wanted to clear -- I know you don't --
there's no need to.
DICK: No. There's a, there's a -- no
reason.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But here's, here's the
condition though. It's -- it was late. We can go
round and around, but the condition is this. The
mother is willing to send the daughter out on condition
O O 1.
that Robert Gonzalez call us and talk to David.
That's, that's plainly what it is.
DICK: All right. Steve, listen.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
DICK: Why is it that you always preface this
with, when we do something you will do something?
when --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I - I'm just - no, look
it. I just -- he -- the phone was handed to me.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I don't even know what
is being planned here. I'm sitting here listening and
it's handed to me just to make it as plain and to the
point as possible. That's the only thing. Have --
Okay? Understand that, because --
DICK: Let's don't even discuss it any
further, all right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm just trying to say --
DICK: That's your --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- look at it --
DICK: -- position. Take that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. Listen to me.
Listen to me. It's not my decision. Didn't you pick
up on that? It has --
O I 15
DICK: I, I know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: nothing to --
DICK: I know that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - nothing to do with me.
DICK: I know. And, and I'm not arguing with
you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: It's, it's her mother's child, and if
her mother doesn't want her to come out --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's what it is.
DICK: Fine. Fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I they're right --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- here standing --
DICK: So, let me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - the both of them.
DICK: - let me tell you something about
Robert Gonzalez --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- so that you know it all so -- I, I
hope --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
DICK: - Dave understood it. You folks all
represent the fact that you are free to leave at any
time. Okay? We also represent to you that Robert
Gonzalez will be given your message and he will have a
O C 16
choice at that time. We can't get a hold of Mr.
Gonzalez now. Like I told David, when there's a
critical incident, and that's what we call it in, in
law enforcement, when there has been a critical
incident, the agents involved in that, that incident
are taken off of duty until an investigation is
handled. In this instance --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: - there's going to be a long,
involved, detailed investigation. Robert Gonzalez was
sent to his family with the -- a, a message to --
Listen, please --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I am.
DICK: Get away --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I am.
DICK: No, I'm not talking I'm talking
about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I See.
DICK: -- to him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see. I see. Okay.
Gotch ya.
DICK: Leave. Because sometimes agents don't
understand. It's necessary --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
DICK: -- to get back, to cool off --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That, that makes sense --
O I 17
DICK: -- to rethink the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- to me. I, I don't
have --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: doubts --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- of what you're saying.
DICK: So, Mr. Gonzalez is gone and we can't
get to him. When, when we're able to, I'll be happy to
send a, a message. In fact, you can write a message
out which we will have delivered to him when we're able
to get to him. I -- well, certainly. We have no
objection to that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Can I say --
DICK: -- at all.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- something and respond to
that? See, it's not, it's not something that I desire
in the first place --
DICK: Well, David --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - there, there was --
okay. Just --
DICK: I know. It's David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just so you understand that
it's --
DICK: Certainly.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- not my request and --
I O 18
DICK: I know. It's David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: See, a lot of what I'm
telling you, when I come across like I do in the
manner, there is a number of people that's said Steve,
would you be our spokesperson.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I said okay, I Will. What
do you want me to --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- say on your behalf? So,
many of the times that I'm speaking, it's not always my
opinion, my decision, but I'm speaking in behalf of
certain --
DICK: I know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- people. I don't want
to. I'm -- on one hand, they're showing a willingness
to leave. On the other hand, those that have, like I
told you earlier in the day, what they told me their
desire is to have some kind of a connection to a news
service or something to do with a negotiation, maybe
that part, or a telephone line being opened. This is
what they've been relaying to me.
DICK: Well, and we asked you this morning to
furnish us with a list of people --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, remember? I ga-- I
did give you some names.
O O 19
DICK: Oh, I know. But those are, those are
celebrities. My gosh, they're, they're not --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. What kind of names
are --
DICK: Well, that's your --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: you --
DICK: -- choice, not our choice.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, well, give me an
example then. If you're saying those --
DICK: well, somebody --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- are celebrities --
DICK: -- that David, and David obviously is
going to have to make the - David --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is Paul Harvey considered
to be a celebrity?
DICK: Well, certainly he is. A cel-- we're
talking about someone that you feel comfortable with.
Now, let, let me ask you once.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
DICK: Dav-- you were originally concerned
that a warrant should be served by the sheriff. Does
David have faith in the local sheriff here? Is that a
person that he would feel comfortable --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he's - he was, he --
see, I really don't know too much --
DICK: Okay.
U 20
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- about them --
DICK: Well, I need --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- personally.
DICK: - to talk to David. If you let me
talk to David and then I'll --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he just, he just
moved off to try to go to the bathroom.
DICK: well, that won't take long. That
won't take long.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: But, listen. Let, let me explain to
you why --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: - why, why I need to talk to David
about that. David must have a list - or at least have
some folks that he is comfortable with that he can deal
with and that he can represent his wishes to. And
those are the folks we're talking about. We're not
talking about bringing in somebody from Oprah Winfrey
or one of these other shows that, that, you know, some
people consider, you know, trash TV, is what I think
I've heard that, that - the term called. That's just
Sally Jesse --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NO, n0.
DICK: Raphael or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I understand. Dick, I
I O 21
understand what
you know, thereyou're saying. When you -- I only --
was a few people standing here. You,
you gave me -- you know, you asked me a question about
names.
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
not like,
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
that then --
STEVE
DICK:
STEVENo, but I was talking about --
SCHNEIDER: S0 --
-- what we all would consider --
SCHNEIDER: No, I understand that.
Okay.
SCHNEIDER: I understand that.
Okay. So --
SCHNEIDER: SO --
-- they just threw those out --
SCHNEIDER: I was --
- to you?
SCHNEIDER: Exactly. Exactly. It's
you know --
Okay.
SCHNEIDER: -- this is what we want or
Well, you --
SCHNEIDER: -- anything or --
Then you need to get back to work on
SCHNEIDER: Well --
- when you get an opportunity.
SCHNEIDER: -- this is true. See, I
, " 22
did that just as a response to find out just what you
had in mind or what, what direction you're going with
that.
DICK: Okay. Now, what about this - Steve,
let's, let's get back to this original proposal that I
offered when - which I felt, frankly, was, was, was a
real breakthrough. And, and I put a lot of effort into
this, into this thing. And, and, and just you guys
just kind of dismissed it out of hand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: which proposal was that
again?
DICK: That, that is the one that I, that I
brought to David's attention that he immediately put
you on in, in connection with the movement of the
Bradley vehicles. And I said, David -- and, and David
said that seems --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, can you refresh my
memory here?
DICK: Okay. I, I suggested to him that if
he will commit to the release -- or to the exodus of
all you folks out of that house, we'll withdraw the
Bradleys. And he said well, that's, that's not
unreasonable. But I, I said, David, if that's not
acceptable to you, offer me, offer me a proposal that I
can take --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see --
O I 23
DICK: -- and sell to them.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And here's what, what I
understand clearly the reason for that. It's not --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- it's not that it V
wouldn't be under the kind of circumstances you and I
have been talking about.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It always gets back to why
he starts getting into the spiritual mode with you when
he says his God told him to wait, and you apparently do
not believe that God can speak to a human being --
DICK: Now, hold it, please --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, no.
DICK: -- don't put --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NO, no.
DICK: -- words in my mouth. All right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, no, no, no. But
I'm telling - when I say you, it's generic. It's
overall. Don't --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- don't be so literal.
It's --
DICK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: not --
DICK: All right.
O I 2.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: it's nothing you
know, it's no -- no, I'm not saying you even said such
a thing. But I'm just saying, you know, basically
that's what it is. That's the concept.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, it's not that your
offer is, is foolish, off-the-wall, anything like that.
He --
DICK: Well, offer me a counter proposal.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, this is what --
DICK: That's what I've asked.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm saying. To me, it,
it is, it is something that is reasonable.
Unidentified whispering voice in background
not discernible.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What did he say to say or
what?
DICK: He what I, what I suggested to him
was that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: - he offered me something that I can
take back in to the bosses, and say, listen now, but he
appreciates, he appreciates, you know, your, your
consideration, but this is something that, that he
would be more, be more comfortable with. And then I
can take that and go in and, and make a case for that.
C O 25
And that's -- you know, during these last couple of
days we, we seemed to get to a point where we can talk
to one another. But then we talk about trying to get
off of dead center, we're having a difficult time.
And, and it's, it's like, you know, you show me yours,
I'll show you mine. And what --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I understand that.
DICK: -- we need to do is reason together
and then we have to put some faith in one another. And
I suggested that, that, you know, you send the kids up
the road, four kids up the road, and at the same time
you're doing that I'll have the Bradleys withdrawn.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see, number one, in,
in all honesty --
DICK: Off your property. Off your property.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. But, number one, in
all honesty, the Bradleys don't even bother us --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: at all. It'S just that,
that whole thing to do with the word, you know, keeping
one's word and following through. That's why --
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - that's why we were --
DICK: That's the crux of this whole thing.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see, that was the
reason for that. But, like I told you earlier, these
l |, 26
people don't fear things like Bradleys and men and --
DICK: Nor should they. We're not --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: Well, they're not there --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. You know, just to --
DICK: to put fear in to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- reiterate that. At the
same time, so that -- to that -- see, what they're
really waiting on, the adults and, and some of the
children are, they're still waiting -- well, when God
told them to wait, why? They're wanting to know why
are we to wait. What is the reason for this? Is
something going to be shown to us from the Word of God?
we realize -- we believe we're in the last days. The
Book of Name is something that is rapidly taking place
as I even speak with you.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, like we've talked
about, the chariots of the flaming torches -- I mean,
we see that to be those tanks right around us. But,
anyway, that's why the majority of these people - it's
not because they're trying to be unreasonable, that
they, they don't want to come out or be there. I
myself want to, Dick. I'd like to come out, get this
thing taken care of once and for all, sit down, and
talk, speak with you, and, and go through whatever has
U O 27
to and, and be done with it. But at the same time, the
reason I came here first of all, like the rest, was to
hear this book opened, and, and we've not been
dissatisfied.
DICK: Is that someplace you have to remain
to hear that? I mean, David certainly --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Was - well, we're --
DICK: -- can put his message down to ~
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, well, well, let me
tell you this - or - in the past, when I first met
the man, I was in Hawaii, and I would speak to him
long-distance by telephone and it cost a humongous
amount monthly in, in phone bills, along with we tried
the tape thing, but he's a man that is given
revelations on a day-by-day basis, which he never
repeats the same thing twice. He has the ability to
open up deeper and deeper the mysteries of God as they
are in that book. So, this is what, what people are
here for, to hear, to know, and we don't - I really
don't see in this world that there are that many
honesthearted people that have a deep love for truth,
whatever truth might be.
DICK: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
DICK: Listen. Please, listen to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I --
I |, 28
DICK: -- me for a second.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead.
DICK: I think - let, let's agree pointby-
point. Have we not reached a point where we're having
a difficult time moving from?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We have.
DICK: Well - you apparently have some
concern about the things that I'm telling you. I
haven't seen you follow through on some of the things
I've heard you talk about. So --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well
DICK: how, how -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - for ex like what, for
example?
DICK: How would well, the first -- I keep
getting back to the first day when we were - when
everyone was coming out. But let's forget that.
That's in the past. That's in the past.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that has nothing to
do with me, though. I mean, I can
DICK: Fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I told you I tried to talk
to as many people as - Well, not to --
DICK: I know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: ~ you, but to -- I think
it was Henry I told that, and Jim.
" l 29
DICK: I understand that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I can't coerce or
force
DICK: I'm not asking you -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - anybody --
DICK: to.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. But just understand
that. I mean, I --
DICK: But I do understand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I can try to talk to
people. I can lay out the reasons, the pluses, the
minuses, but, you know, I mean, that's as far as I can
go. But, remember, that the main things for - that
are bothering these people, like the young lady you
talked to -- I mean, no one talked to her when she was
called to the phone. I, I could detect a little
animosity there. She was annoyed because, number one,
they see that, you know, there that from day one the
Bradleys have entrenched further and further on our
property and these men have done more and more of those
kind of things. A $1,000 were, were given. The phone
didn't come for much longer than when we gave the money
out for it, and the cord. Along with the six gallons
of milk. That looked bad. Along with a body that's
still on the property whose parents are here right now.
And -- I mean, you, you've got a spokesman on TV saying
I I. 30
one thing. And I've got the list, by the way, of all
those statements right here. We wrote them down. If I
you yourself would agree with me that what was
stated on television to those reporters is not in fact
the way you guys have responded to us for those
requests. It is not true at all. I'll read back his
very statements to you.
DICK: Yeah, I know, I know what he said,
Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I do too. Do you want me
to go up there? I'll go read them and then I'll tell
you what you told me. I mean --
DICK: Well, I under-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Six gallons of milk aren't
here. The dead body, contrary to what he said, is on
the property and you ha- there have not been a
willingness to take these things off.
Ringing sound.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That would show one's good
faith. But these are the - some of the things that
people come to me about and lay on me, and I'm to relay
that to yourself.
DICK: All right. which brings us back to my
original question.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: We have to work with one another and
0 9 3.
we have to understand that -- you know, yesterday you
mentioned this term "bargain." All right. You --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I, I picked that up
from the, the news press, the --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - press release
conference.
DICK: Well, in, in a sense it is a bargain.
In any sort of negotiation or bargain, much the same
way they do with union activities --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I understand.
DICK: -- you present some points that are
of, of interest to you, I do the same. Obviously,
we're not going to agree with one another in each
instance, but we, we do need to agree that we have to
work to resolve and it takes some concession on both
our part. After I left you last night, I, I was going
over and over and over this in my mind. When I came in
today, the reason I was not on the phone for you --
with you for some time is because I went in to my, to
my bosses here and, and suggested, listen, they have
what I feel are some reasonable, legitimate concerns,
and obviously why we --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: which are? Can you give me
some --
DICK: Well, this --
O 9 .2
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - examples of what --
DICK: -- concern about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - they might be?
DICK: - Bradleys on the property.
concern about feeling that the evidence youThe
feel
that the evidence will not get to court and that the --
new- the news account that was filmed might be
doctored, and all those things. So, I've said
please, put that out over to the media so they
that you're concerned about it, and it -- and,
we will comply with all the rules of evidence,to him,
know
and that
and in
good faith we will make all those things available. We
are not going to tamper with those. We're not going to
do any of those things that you suggested. But I will
-- I know that and everyone else knows that, but I want
to make sure that you understand that. So, I went to
him and I said, please, make this clear, that these
folks will have the ability to talk to whomever they
want as soon as they come out of there. And,
additionally, they're concerned about the Bradleys on
the property. And if we can move those Bradleys off,
which is one of the, the points that, that you appear
to be concerned about, then maybe we can get together
and start working once together to resolve this
impasse, to resolve this incident and get on with it so
that you can make all the information that you're
O 9 33
writing down, all those thoughts and emotions that you
have, available for scrutiny by anyone that cares to
look at them, all the news media worldwide, all the law
enforcement agencies, Congressional inquiries, the
Senate, the Congress and all those kinds of things.
It's important you do that and it's, it's, it's, it's
your --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Ah -
DICK: -- responsibility to do that. So,
what did I do? I went into my boss and said please --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Can I stop you there and
ask you something? But who are your bosses? How many
are there?
DICK: Oh, my gosh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are you talking about the
FBI or are you talking about more agencies --
DICK: Well, this is a, this is a cooperative
effort between --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Too, how many men
are you speaking with?
DICK: I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: When I talk with you,
you're going back to how many people that are making
decisions here?
DICK: There are a number of different pe--
decision-makers. Obviously, we can't work 24 hours a 92
92
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O 9 3.
day and we're in the seventh day now, so there's a
group effort here. There's no one person in charge.
It's an effort, a cooperative effort with ATF and the
FBI and, and, of course, obviously there are the county
sheriffs that are here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Someone has to be able to
have the authority to finally say yea or nay.
DICK: Absolutely. And that's what I'm
talking about. These folks --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is there a person right
there -- is a person that is finally given that
decision?
DICK: There is a, is a group - it's a, a --
several people that represent the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's a little democracy you
have there that --
DICK: We, we always work in that fashion,
democracy. We don't want anybody to make an arbitrary
decision.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. That, that's not
what I mean. I'm just saying, you know, you're, you're
-- you know, every time I speak with you you've got to
go back to, as you say, bosses.
DICK: Well, certainly. Much like you go to
David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bosses. Well, what -- so,
I i, 35
what's the agency -- I mean, who's all involved in
these bosses? Can you just --
DICK: Well, we have --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - give me a little idea
about it?
DICK: Okay. I'll, I'll --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What, what --
DICK: -- tell you. You got a pen there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DICK: Sure. We got ATF. And you saw the,
the local -- the ATF man that's representing their
agency here who -- by the way, this morning I think you
saw on television he said, we take full responsibility.
We, in ATF, take full --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but --
DICK: -- responsibility.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- what does that really
mean, though, Dick? I mean, I appre--
DICK: That means that that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I appreciate the
statement, but I've seen others --
DICK: That means he'll do it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- say that in the past
too --
DICK: You know what?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: and they got their
O O 3.
hands --
DICK: You know what the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- slapped or something.
DICK: He will take full responsibility and
it will be worked out. There is the FBI, the Texas
Rangers, folks from other agencies, the Austin Police
Department, the local sheriff's department here. It's
just a, a whole -- DPS, the National Guard. I mean, I
mean, these kinds of incidents, as tragic as they are,
we all have to work together in the cooperative effort
because it, it takes a lot of resources. It takes a
lot of -- a, a, a lot of people, and those kinds of
things. So, ultimately, the decisions that are made
are made by the agencies themself and we -- that is, I
and, and perhaps --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are you telling me --
DICK: -- John Cox --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- are you telling me
you're going back to a representative of each of these
agents? Or what are you telling me?
DICK: Well, there -- we have periodic
meetings with the heads of agencies here and we explain
to them --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, who carries the clout
mainly, though, as to --
DICK: Well --
O O 3.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- what's going on?
DICK: -- there - it's a cooperative effort.
I mean, there, there is no, you know, head man, so to
speak. They are commanders of respective agencies.
And Mr. Ricks is one of those people here. Again, we
have, we have to work in shifts, much like you do. All
of us have to sleep. And, and, so, there are a number
of people. And that's why we take this responsibility
very seriously. We don't make arbitrary decisions.
And that's why you say well, we move so slowly. The
reason is because we want to ensure --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What are, what are the
possibilities of me speaking with Bob Ricks?
DICK: The -- there are no possibilities.
That would have -- Mr. Ricks has so many
responsibilities that he's coordinating this gigantic
effort, as are the other folks here, and it's just
absolutely impossible. The man just is, is
coordinating --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Is he in the same --
DICK: -- the effort --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- is he in the same area,
the same building as yourself?
DICK: No. No. we have to get back to him
and, and deal with him as often as we can. But, again,
you know, they're, they're having to stand by. The92
92
92
92
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1
1
O "! 38
heads of agencies have to conduct these press
conferences. They have to make policy divisions - or
decisions. And they have to talk with the people back
in Washington, the President. You know, all these
kinds of people, from the President on down, they're
all concerned about your safety. And, and, so, there
are continually decisions that have to be made. And,
and that's why I'm here to talk with you, so I can
represent you. That's why I've chosen to be a street
agent, as we call it, instead of an administrator,
because you know, I, I think it's my responsibility
to try to work with people and I enjoy working with
people trying to, trying to resolve some of these kinds
of, of, of incidents safely. And, so, I pass that on,
as does John Cox, as does Jim and Henry, and many
others. Well, you have to have trust and faith in me
to represent what you said, and I have. I've gone to
these people and we've gotten concessions, and we're
willing to do those kinds of things, but we've got to
work together. We both have to do it. It can't be a
oneway street. It just doesn't work. It can't work
that way. When have you ever seen a, a decision made
wherein one person always makes the decision? You're,
you're married. Do you always make the decision or, or
does your wife at times have some input into the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Getting back to what
0 9 3.
we need to accomplish here, what is it you suggest?
DICK: I want a counter for you - from you
as to how we can resolve this concerning the Bradleys
and, and releasing folks.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: And, and I'll be glad to, to send that
in to, to the bosses and we'll mull it over and, you
know, you can't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, let me -- if you
remember -- remember what the issues were when we last
-- over the last day or two that we've been speaking
have been the encroachment.
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, we call, we call
that, I guess, generically Bradleys then. I guess
that's --
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the key word. Okay.
Secondarily, it was -- we were speaking about the six
gallons of milk. And money was paid out from here for
whatever our needs might be that way, and it seemed
like you people did want to help. Of course --
DICK: Let me address that issue. Can we do
this one-by-one, perhaps, at least?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I just want to --
these are the issues that they --
O O .0
DICK: Okay. You, you go ahead and read
them. You go ahead and read them. Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. That's why. They're
going to get back to me with all of this again, so --
and then the body, of course, Peter Gent.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And his parents being here.
Those are the things, along with - apparently, the
most recent one would be Robert Gonzalez, but that,
like you say, has to do with his own decision, whatever
he chooses to do if you contact him.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That -- you know, a lot of
these things do not matter to me per se personally, but
at the same time people are asking me to be a
spokesperson, make it plain and clear what exactly --
where they're coming from and what they're hoping to
accomplish.
DICK: I know that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, I mean, what - the
biggest thing of all, the biggest thing of all with the
majority of these people - now, this is what it is --
has to do with the press, having a line to the press.
They do fear you people. They do. They're saying if I
go out I want my story to be heard. I want the safety
to know that they're -- we're being viewed and watched
I I 4.
and that they're there, that they know ahead of time
what I think, that I might make some statements. This
is what they're asking me --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and telling me.
DICK: And what - you know, yesterday, on
that last issue, we asked you who would you like to
have here --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. But --
DICK: when you come out --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I just wanted to go one
last time again.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: When I
and you asked me to come back with
again, this is where we were at --
majority of these people have come
what they have requested.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay?get off the phone,
a counter. I mean,
or this is where the
to me and this is
DICK: Okay. Now, listen. we have to deal
with these issues one a time. It seems as though when
I try to deal with them, you always come up with one
more issue from someone else. And, and I'm, I'm doing
my best to resolve these issues.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, this
0 9 4.
happens when you, when --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you're talking to these
people, you know, and right away --
DICK: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- they say, well, I --
I'll, I'll say to them, well, you go talk to the man.
He's okay. His name is Dick. No, I don't want to.
You talk for me. And I say well, wait now. It's not
so bad. You know, this is what one goes through.
DICK: If you're concerned, please go back to
those people that are concerned that when they come out
they might be hurt or something, that the individuals
that are scared --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, therefore --
DICK: We'll have --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: you know
DICK: -- anybody here - we'll ha-- within
reason, we'll have people here to ensure that that
doesn't happen. How better able to, to make them feel
comfortable with that? we'll have that person here.
You, you tell me -- you give me the name of someone;
we'll have them right here. We'll have them right
here. And we'll film it if you want on a, on a
videotape --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, see, now --
U ' .3
DICK:
STEVE-- if you like.
SCHNEIDER: -- you're getting clo--
you're getting closer to what they're hoping for.
DICK: Well, I'll be happy to do that. We
told you that yesterday, but apparently it hasn't been
communicated --
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
getting close I
an open line to
DICK:SCHNEIDER: Well, it has --
-- to the folks that --
SCHNEIDER: - but that's not --
- are concerned.
SCHNEIDER: -- you know -- we're
said. Because they were talking about
the press and so forth.
Well, the open line to the press will
be done when you come out. Okay. You'll have that --
you'll have the accessibility to the press, and we'll
tell you that on television tomorrow.
STEVESCHNEIDER: I'll pass that on again,
but I -- you know, I, I don't know for sure. I'll pass
it all on, what
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
Because I know,you told me --
Pass it on, please.
SCHNEIDER: - and we'll --
Please do that to --
SCHNEIDER: - see what --
-- those people that are concerned.
like I told you, yesterday, that not
O ' 4.
having been in this situation before there are a lot of
concerns. And, and I understand that and, and I'm
trying to help you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -- resolve
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
You hit it on the head.
DICK: Sure. And
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
going to take awhile for me
There's - some of them are
what I'll do is --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
as I can, make a list or --Exactly.
those --
You are right about that.
that's understandable.
Okay. Well, let me -- it's
to get around here.
starting to eat here, so
-- just try to talk as much
DICK: Well, let me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: You,
concerned about those
John Cox will talk to-- see if --
you get those people that are
specific issues, and myself or
them directly and we'll discuss
those issues. But you've got to communicate what we
say to those people --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
DICK: - in order to resolve it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
clearly.I have. I have. Very
O 9 .5
DICK: Because, I mean, that's - that seems
to me to be a very simple issue. If they're concerned
that when they come out they will be - not be well-
treated, then we'll have --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, it'S not --
DICK: -- people here --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- even so much as --
DICK: -- as witnesses.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- well-treated. They're
talking about the final outcome of what's going to come
of this. They all want to be clearly heard that --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- when, when questions are
asked by the press, the world, the, the, the country
we're living in, that if they really want to know, they
want to have the opportunity to answer those questions.
DICK: Not only will I answer those
questions, you will be -- certainly have an attorney in
there that can give them the information concerning
court procedures and hearings and those kinds of
things.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Their -- they want their
voice to be heard.
DICK: I couldn't agree more. And I -- you
know, how can I make you understand that we believe
that you must be heard ourselves? We're not trying to
O 9 .6
suppress that. We're - in fact, we're going to
ensure --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Let me pass --
DICK: - that that happens.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: that Well, I, I
realize, I hear what you're saying. It's now to be
able to convince these people here.
DICK: Well, I'll be happy to convince them.
You put those folks on the, on the line and I'll talk
to them and, and I'll convince them, because that is
the truth. Now, you -- you know, you're not the only
people that have integrity and truth. I consider
myself a very truthful individual. I've never had my
truth --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I wouldn't --
DICK: -- or honesty --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - deny that. I would --
DICK: -- questioned.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I would never ~-
DICK: Never.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- say that you were. I
mean, I could not judge you --
DICK: Never.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Dick.
DICK: well, I'm telling you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I -- you know, I'm not
0 U .7
dealing with you as a character or a personality.
When --
DICK: I understand that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- when, when I'm talking
about the concept of truth, it's not in relation to
what -- how you and I live from day to day.
DICK: Other honorable -- you know -- okay.
Let's put it this way, Steve. You --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: and I are not the only honorable
people, okay? ~
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't even consider
myself --
DICK: I work with honorable people. In --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: - fact, I would not work for --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Probably more s-
DICK: -- them if they weren't honorable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Probably more so than
myself even, because I don't claim to be anything but
as one that tr-- only but tries to be and have the best
motives and so forth, and virtues. But like when you
say -- you may be a much more truthful man than I am.
But the one thing is I want the truth in relation to
issues. I want the truth in relation to the issues of
eternal life and death. So, that when I --
O 9 .8
DICK: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - speak of truth --
DICK: I can't give you the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I'm, I'm even --
DICK: - truth about those issues, life and
death.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, see, that's what I --
so, when I use the word like that, you know, I'm, I'm
not --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - talking about it in, in
regards to your own character --
DICK: I know it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - or who you are as a
person. You come across as being one that is as
believable, and, and so far I do believe you. And I
think you are doing as much as you possibly can, and it
does come across, that I know you have to deal with
others that may not sympathize to the degree you do
from talking with us in regards to Bradleys or whatever
else we might be talking about. But we'll, we'll keep
on working on this. I'll, I'll do as you requested.
I'll go to these people and see if they won't come to
the phone, and you can talk with them. You can
alleviate any of their fears in regards to how they
might be taken out of here, treated, whatever else.
0 9 .9
DICK: Well, I hope your attorney in there is
also talking to them, because he's the first one that
should be, and, and obviously you should, should have
some belief in what he tells you. That the prosecution
in this thing is, is such that it's going to be
horribly difficult to straighten this out. I gave you
cl- examples today of --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
DICK: people that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe that.
DICK: - that beat the cases, if that's the
way you want to term it, because, because juries
believed the folks that were charged. I gave you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
DICK: - I cited you examples, and, and it
happens.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I do
DICK: It happens
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You, you, you are doing
your best and you will see
appreciated it as a person
DICK: well, you
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: I feel --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: You know,OI'1¬
kno
I'mday how much I have
w what?
and the part you --
have played.
v, I, 50
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm serious --
DICK: concerned that you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - about that.
DICK: I am very concerned that you and David
have not tried to meet me -- you know, I, I busted my
butt for you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You, you don't realize --
DICK: -- and you haven't tried to help me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm, I'm trying to make it
so plain that I'm more than anything else a
spokesperson, trying to gauge the spirit and the --
DICK: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- attitude and, and what
they want. when --
DICK: Then take it back --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - when I go around --
DICK: -- to them. Take it back to them --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. That's --
DICK: -- what I said.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - what I'm saying. But
when I have gotten strong, it's because they say well,
wait a minute, we don't want it because we don't trust
them. They say, go relay that for us. This is what's
happened. It - do you understand? But if it --
DICK: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- were, if it were you and
O ' 51
me, if it was only myself in concern, I'd w-- come
walking out. I'd say okay, here I am, Dick. Let's do
what we've got to do, be done, and let's go on.
DICK: Steve, you represent -- obviously,
they've asked you to speak for them. That must mean
they have a lot of faith in your ability to do that.
So, along with that faith in you comes a responsibility
from you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I agree
DICK: -- to, to do --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: with
DICK: -- to do the right
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I agree
that's what I've been trying --you.
thing.
with you. And
DICK: And I'm trying to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- to do from day one.
DICK: - tell you, and I'm trying to tell
you what I can do for you and will do for you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: -- and that is the
you have to go back and ensure thatright thing. Now,
they know that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I haven't disagreed. I
haven't disagreed. In fact, I --
DICK: It's a big responsibility.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I, like yourself, have
wanted to move everybody out smoothly, clearly, safely
to the place where this is
can be finally put to rest.
DICK: All right. Well, listen, go
those folks and tell David that, that I again
like to speak with him and we'll work on this
I mean, we, we got this concession from, from
the commanders and I, I don't --" 52
all finally resolved and it
back to
would
proposal.
the, from
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What concession was --
DICK: - want to dismiss --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that again?
DICK: Well, that is to move the Bradleys.
And, you know, I certainly could --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then everybody comes
out?
DICK: Well, listen.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: By --
DICK: Offer me something in turn.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: By the way, that -- okay.
To them that's -- that isn't --
DICK: Unacceptable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just to be clear with you.
I, I don't want to even say that to them because --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - it will be an insult to
them --
DICK: Okay. Let's go with --
U ' 5.
concession
women and
some of th
repetition
understand
you do.STEVE SCHNEIDER: - because it's not a
. It's --
DICK: Well, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - nothing.
DICK: You know, offer--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's nothing at all.
DICK: Listen. Offer me something. Women --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
DICK: - and children. Let's go with the
children.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well --
DICK: Now, that's agreeable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- 1'11 go back, 1'11 go --
DICK: That's acceptable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - back to talking to them.
DICK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They'll probably bring up
e things I mentioned to you though.
DICK: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I'll - it'll just be a
DICK: Well, you know, sometimes people don't
things the first time around. So, I know
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: I know you do. But sometimes the
O ' .4
other folks maybe do not understand it So, it's up to
you. It's your responsibility to, t --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
DICK: pass this on to them just as it s
my responsibility to try to
clear these issues up.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Well let s go back
and I'll make the rounds --
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
DICK:
STEVE
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVEAll right
SCHNEIDER:
We'll be
SCHNEIDER:
-- we'll
SCHNEIDER:
you a
SCHNEIDER:
All right
SCHNEIDER:
Bye now.
SCHNEIDER:
>'<9<
SCHNEIDER:
Steve?
SCHNEIDER:
John.
SCHNEIDER:- again and --
back to --
- see what --
be back to --
- we can do
little later then
Okay.
Talk to you later Dick
Good-bye
***
Hello?
YGS .
John. How are you doing°work with you to try to
Q 9 5.
JOHN: Fine. How about yourself?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not too bad.
JOHN: How's David doing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He seems to be doing a
little bit better.
JOHN: He sounded terrible last night.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he did. I was kind
of falling asleep myself when he was talking to you
there. I stayed by just to see how he was doing to
make sure that, you know, he was somewhat stable yet.
JOHN: Both you guys got a pretty good
night's, night's rest last night, huh? I didn't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It was one Of the --
JOHN: - didn't have you called too early in
the morning.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly. It was one of the
better nights I've had.
JOHN: It - did, did it help him at all?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It did. It actually did.
He was awake a lot of the day. He, he, as usual, you
know, of course, went in and out a few times. He's
still recovering.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So but he's looking
better today than I've seen him look yet. I think I'm
-- I'm sure he's going to pull out of it.
0 0 5.
JOHN: Did he try getting up and moving
around at all?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He -- yeah. In fact, he
had -- he got up. He kind of sat up and he even tried
to stand up a little bit, but, you know, still, it's
quite dizzying yet. Gets very lightheaded and it kind
of takes all his energy.
JOHN: Anything about his -- does he look
like he's -- as far as his vital signs and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Vital --
JOHN: -- temperature - you don't think he's
got any infection set in or anything like that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It, it doesn't appear like
it. It, it looks like he's okay, even the facial
coloring.
JOHN: Hey, I want to see him up and about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: - walking out of there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
JOHN: You know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
JOHN: And that's what I'm, I'm hoping that
he will stay healthy, you know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John, so --
JOHN: -- and, and just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
I ' 57
JOHN: -- get better.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: when did you come into the
complex there? I mean, at - Did --
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: you just come in? Did
you just come in now or have you been there for a
little while or --
JOHN: Oh, this evening?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: Yeah. I've been here for a couple of
hours.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. S0, Dick has
probably filled you in then, of course.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, you were kind of hard on
him, weren't you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't know. See,
being the middleman, you know, it's --
JOHN: I know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: a frustration when --
JOHN: We both are middlemen, aren't we?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, this is true. I
mean, between yourself and - like I told him, it would
be no problem if it was myself only dealing --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - with you people. I'd be
out the door and it'd be over. But these people are
I " 5e
coming up to me saying, well, you know, we want to work
things out right, but at the same time we're - we want
to be cautious. we're -- and then they're asking me to
be a spokesman and, you know, you get all these
different things at one time there and --
JOHN: Well, one of the, one of the things
that I was kind of concerned about is when Dick
mentioned that he was just talking for, for a very
brief period of time with, with David, and then he put
- David just gave the phone right to you, and that's
why I was concerned. Is David having --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he did.
JOHN: -- some problems, you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He did.
JOHN: Is, is he having some physical --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he --
JOHN: -- problems?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- with himself didn't, no,
no. He --
JOHN: Oh, okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - did that because he was
insulted by what he claimed to be an offer, you know.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We'll back ~-
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - off the Bradleys and
0 9 5.
you'all will come out. Well - now, what does that
mean? What --
JOHN: Well, I thought there was a physical
reason that it may have been.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. You see, it's
a thing of trust. It's a thing of a wor- you know,
both of us look at each other somewhat with a little
suspicion trying to --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: to make sure that we're
going to follow through on what we say. And, well, you
know, like I reiterated to him toward the end of the
last conversation, we started off with square one.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It was agreed with Jim, and
very clearly so, that they would be pulling up three
Bradleys to the perimeter of the property but not on
the property.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, of course, after that
time they've dug in at the back place. They've even
just, in the past hour, they're in the front yard, back
toward the gate, but still they're there.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And the worst thing
about --
l, I, 60
JOHN: Out by the tower?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll, I'll tell --
JOHN: where the tower used to be?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you something. They've
committed a maj-- they've committed a violation,
because they just ran over the top of the cemetery
there, which is against --
JOHN: Where is it?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - the statutes and laws of
the State of Texas.
JOHN: where --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's right out front where
the old church used to be. There's a -- an old --
there's a large furnace unit that is still standing.
It's blue. And of course --
JOHN: I'm making some --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: be
JOHN: -- notes. Just a second.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Between that and the
fence is a cemetery.
JOHN: If you went down the road past the
bus? Is that what, is that what you're talking about?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Do you remember
where the guard gate was --
JOHN: Yes. Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- as you drive in? And
I ' 61
then you take a right onto our dirt road that winds to
the building itself. On the right-hand side is a
cemetery.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And the attorney even came
to me, reminded me of what is a very strict violation
in the State of Texas for mutilating or purposely --
going over the top of a cemetery. He took the Bradley
on there about an hour ago, ran through over the top of
it, twisted and turned around on it. I mean, I keep on
asking the question to Dick. You know, if these are
full-grown men in these toys --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you know, what are they
doing? I mean, it, it doesn't impress us. It doesn't
intimidate us. It just slows the process down.
JOHN: Yeah .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, which I, like
yourself, I, I, I really respect yourself and someone
like Dick when you -- I really believe you guys are
trying, that it's, it's revoltive sic! to him. And
then I was -- also passed on to him that one of our
guys happened to be looking down the road at some of
the sheriff's department. I, I --
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - believe maybe that's
0 0 .2
them. I don't know who it would be. But one of them
showed the finger to him. And a little later one of
the guys, I think an officer, pulled his pants down and
stuck his butt in the air.
JOHN: That tells you something, doesn't it?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I mean, what are we
dealing with here? What are we dealing with?
JOHN: Well, I, I -- in my own mind, and I
can't talk for other people, I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he said, you know --
JOHN: - I would say --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- if they were --
JOHN: -- we're dealing with somebody that's
frustrated and juvenile and, you know, you can go on
and throw all the expletive --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I know. But I --
JOHN: -- deleted out there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- think if you guys are in
a position where, you know, you have some authority,
I'd pull off that kind of foolishness, that juvenile
attitude.
JOHN: Well, I'm making notes about it, I'll
tell you that. The cemetery itself --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: - is that just an old cemetery that's
been there for years --
. . 63
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, in --
JOHN: -- and years?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- fact, it, it's gotten to
become a little bit known because of this George Roden,
back about six years ago, dug up a body of a woman that
had been buried there something like 20 years ago.
JOHN: Oh, that's where that was?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes. Exactly. And she was
reburied and it, it got back from the paper --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - because, I mean, how
many times does a person need to be buried?
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But --
JOHN: But there are several other people
buried out there
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah. There's --
JOHN: - as well, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- quite a number in that
cemetery, isn't there? Like, what --
JOHN: 1, I'm sorry?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Probably about eight, maybe
ten or so.
JOHN: Well, I'll let somebody know about it.
Let me, let me pass a couple of things by that I
talked --
I 9 .4
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: - to Dick and I talked to some other
people and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: -- obviously there are some issues
that came up during the day and, and some that were
kind of touchy, but I'm not going to bring them up to
make them sensitive or anything else. But I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NO. See --
JOHN: -- I just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that wouldn't be
sensitive. It was just that one --
JOHN: I just want to clarify --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: -- some things.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. Go ahead. Go
ahead.
JOHN: That earlier in the day they talked
about those considerations that, that David said were
totally unacceptable, and, and that's fine. I
appreciate his posture on that. And it was my
understanding they wanted -- you know, everybody come
out, we'll remove the Bradley vehicles, and that's
basically what the, the statement was, from my
understanding.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
O 9 .5
JOHN: Is that the way you understand it
as --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
JOHN: -- well?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's basically what it
was.
JOHN: Okay. And then there were five items
discussed; the removal of the vehicles, the six gallons
of milk for the youngsters, Peter, a direct line to the
media, and a conversation with Robert. Those --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That is correct.
JOHN: -- those, those five items.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That is correct.
JOHN: And, also, I guess there was a little
girl in there, Melissa Morrison, that they had, they
had some discussion about her leaving and then just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: -- put an end to that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: And, and that's about where we stand
from, from today, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's correct.
JOHN: I, I, I told Dick, I said, geez, we,
we kind of left things in a pretty good vein early this
morning, and what, what's, what's happened out there,
huh?
" I 66
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
JOHN: So, let, let me throw a couple of
things to you that I have, that I have found out, not I
have determined, but I - in conversation with people
here. First of all, Robert's not here. Robert's gone.
He's been taken someplace. He's having some
difficulties. And I think you understand what that is
that's all about. It's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
JOHN: -- just some, some trauma. And --
however, if either yourself or David wanted to put a, a
statement together or something on tape, I'll guarantee
you it'll get to Robert. If, if, if we can --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see --
JOHN: -- we could work out any arrangements
you want to work out to get the tape --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, in --
JOHN: -- through to him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- response to that, I
mean, David -- it's not that he wants to make a
statement so much to Robert, it's just that we have --
JOHN: Well, I don't mean a -- you know, a, a
official statement.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: N0, n0. I, I --
JOHN: I'm sure he has --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I --
O 9 6,
JOHN:
Robert.
STEVE-- something he wants to discuss with
SCHNEIDER: See, David allowed him into
his home and had an open communion --
JOHN:
STEVE
him --
JOHN:
STEVESure.
SCHNEIDER: -- and communication with
Sure.
SCHNEIDER: -- and there would be --
knowing David, there would be no threats, no veiled
threats.
JOHN:
STEVE
so --
JOHN:Oh, yeah.
SCHNEIDER: He loves, loves this man
Disappointment probably more than
anything else, huh?
STEVE
JOHN:
and express his
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVESCHNEIDER: Yeah. So, I mean --
But if wants to put a tape together
feelings --
SCHNEIDER: I'll --
-- to Robert --
SCHNEIDER: -- I'll pass that on --
-- let him know that --
SCHNEIDER: -- if he wants --
-- that certainly --
SCHNEIDER: -- to make a tape and pass
I 5 68
it on to Robert.
JOHN:
Robert, you know
STEVE
JOHN:
feel better too
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
from what SteveSure. Maybe it'll do something for
SCHNEIDER: It might. It might.
You know, and maybe it'll make David
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
by, by making this statement.
SCHNEIDER: Well, see, as you recall,
- I mean, not Steve, but I mean what
you were updated with there by Dick --
JOHN:
STEVE
End of tape 69!Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: - was, of course --