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FEDER,@92LBi"§EAu OF INVESTIGATION
MALCOLM X LITTLE
PART 17 OF 24
BUFILE 100 399321
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KILLING OR KNOWS MORE ABOUT TI-IE K ILl.INO OF MALCOLM X THEN IS WILLING.. 925~l92tI =-1w- 5; iv. .1 ;_,:_;:r.a§m},,i;
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mro aulnitted 14 rolls or 16m movie film ce
Bureau, attention Mechanical Section, on 3/16/65, to be '
developed in view or the fact that film was marked "Exposed"
when received by the MO. . .
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pertaining to the above-captioned matter.
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MAILEDZ
{JAR 3 3 1965 .
COMM-FBI 'i
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INTERVIEWSIXTY FIVE, ADVISED THA"' " 9-; --F-'92=iIli!I[-' _ " T 92 7,. '
Mr. 'I'n!|I"Il_.._._... '
Mr. Belmont ._... _
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DATE BY J,/.19.:/45" ,
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HAS INTER-
snoerxue or MALCOLM x AT was AUDUBON BALLROOM on FEB. rusuwr
FIVE. stares as was NOT IN was BALLROOM on res. twenty
FIVE. rm-"0 mzcmvsn rm-11* -was AT BALLR6SE=i
SSUED SUBPOENA TO APPEAR AT NY COUNTY GJ., HARCH
SIXTY FIVE. URING INTERVIEW, ATTEMPTED TO RECORD
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Memorandum
T? = Dmoron. FBI 00-399321! =~1'== 3/19/65J/i"~ e u I*: - sno, new tom: 05-6999'! --
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= ALL IPIFOPEATION co ~- eSUBJECT l I 1 S TN 1 in. I. .. . . _ DATE , _, . .. .
ReNYairte1 to the Director dated 3/8/65.
Dur weeks March 7 and 114, 1965,were shown photographs orv ua s enumerate low, but were unable to
identify amr or these individuals as being in
attendance at the OMU meeting at which MALCOLM I$3 1:111 , 2/21/65. held 166th Street and Broadway,. K
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4-750 Rev. 4-17-B5!
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FUIPI DELETED FIG! IIIFUHITIOII SHEET
Page s! withheld entirely at this location in the file. One or more of the following statements, when
indicated. eirplein mie deletion. ~
Deleted under examptionta! b! _ with no segreiabie
material available for release to you.
Information pertained only to a third party with no reference to you or the subject of your request.
information pertained only to a third party. Your name is listed in the title only.
Documents originated with another Govemment agencyes!. These documents were referred to that
agencyes! for review and direct response to you.
Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency ies!. You will be advised by the FBI as
to the releasability of this information following our consultation with the other agency ies!.
Pagels! withheld for the following reason s!:
For your infonnation: .__ _::_ _ _ _
The following number is to be used for reference regarding these pages:
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FROM PHILADELPHIA 231650
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THREE rvrzmvrrvs SIXTY!-IVE 'l'HAT'ROM PHILADELPHIA was m'r.=:-=2-F
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THE-'31.. i_, r____, __ _,__________ ___._
BEFORE NY COUNTY GRAND JURY IN NEAR FUTURE-
. ADVISED THREE TWENTYFIVESIXTY]-IVE, THAT NO NEH LEADS DEVELOPED ON THIS DATE IN INVESTIGATION OF
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FROM NEW YQRK /I05-89991
_ IQ/MALCOLM KRITTLE AKA, Is-mu.
' ' RENYTEL, [man :5-22-es.
WAS A MEMBER N01ALL 1 g»:rA1FD I; " r m r r.u..u.:- J 0 ... Q L. ATL/
AD
. . ._. THAT N0 PERTINENT INFQ DEUELQPED DURING
nus mm: RE KILLING or MALCOLM x.N0w INTERVIEW-
me /Known mm MEMBER was DEFECTED FROM NOI,
-wv 0" SI AT W ""° P-DMITTEP HEWAT AUDUBON BALLROOM wmzm MALCOLM x was KILLED. -row PD THAT wnzjrfa
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10' 7 PH URGENT -3-24-65 DAE
to nxnzcron -13- 100-399321 1 p
rnou new YORK 105-6999 EL~ '
. . _ '. K!I 1"
1&1} K "I
I . U _ / - fl r.MALCOLM K. LITTLE AKA, ISMMI¢¥J V . 1/¢_,"u..
RENYTEL, MARCH TWENTY THREE SIXTY FIVE
/MARCH TWENTY FOUR, SIXTY FIVE THA
PD mncn rm-:m"r runs: snrrv 1-1v1:.-
navxue, nzrzctsn rnon no: mosouz NUMBER szvzn,
nun MALCOLM x. AID ms orrzn w
no1'iu n§5nan A GROUP or PERSONS wuo
T-"3 /
°NE................
n ~MATION
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was INTEBVIEVED Y
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ITTED BEING nausea qggMr.
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STRONGARN TACTICS. HE NAMED THE! AS TALHAGE HAYER, NORMAN BUTLERg_THOHA$
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- 1'»HAYER, BUTLER AND JOHNSON HERE RECENTLY INDICTED FOR
xxums or na1.con x . nns no PLANS or INTER-
VIEVING ABOVE LISTED PERSONS UNTIL INFO CAN BE CORROBORATED
BY nuormzn unuzss. 'rmu' mwsn IS to as ARRAIGNED AGAIN
N ON MARCH TWENTY FIVE, SIXTY FIVE, FOR THE SHOOTING OF MALCOLM X AND VILL
THEN as means:-zaarsn AT rm-: PENITENTIARY AT RIKERS ISLAND, mu _
_'lI-{AT nussm FRANCIS, wuo was nnnnstso wuss mauzon
x was KILLED on cunness or ASSAULT wxra A nausznous uzasou, was RELEASED
E
on TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS BAIL on nnnc SIXTEEN, sxxiv FIVI. THE BAIL
IGNED BY 0NE_ HAS COVERED BY STUYVESANT INSURANCE CO¢, AFTER CO-S
Y°'~'"@ *~°°I'='-I *LLI "°
RE BEING REOPENED FOR CONSIDERATION FOR THE SECURITY INDEX;
SND AND PLS HOLD.-.¢-.-¢¢--s...» 1. "- In-:
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Remlet to New York, dated 2/ ,
' * Enclosed herewith for the Bi:-eeu are 9 copies of aw
LEM pertaining 130 the death Of HP-LCOLI'l X.
of: tic -_ =<.1 -re furl e" ' -moist"b I D I. rue -n _ _-'~< -" ' s . I
- - relayed information to SA r '9' "1: -/ _j
sth certificate or !4ALCOI.H I was reviewed by _-. -514- Iv . .
' W. ' In View er the fact that nmccom x is deceased, his 9 9remain pending by the KYO in order that theuizresukept advised of the pertinent developments in --tigation of the assassination of FLALCOI.M X being conducted
92V 1'0: DIRECTOR, Psi 06-399321!
§5/65 captioned es s-
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._: . ~,_.:..- I. . -. _ U£TED STATES DEPARTMENT OQSTICI
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1-:1. »--=-4 noun. nunmu or INVESTIGATION
" New York. New Yo:k
- 1 I-R-#1.:-1--av-~ - 1-Ia.rc.Ia 214, 1965*' '14tw York 105-8999 I V __
Q,
Malcolm K. Little
Internal Security - Muslim mIQ-1.! Ille-5»-.
Characterizations of the Muslim Mosque,
Incorporated MMI!, tion of .
Afro-American Unity , Nation of
- Islam N01! and MOI
+-.11". -.
- _ ,
, commonly known , nad jus
--- shot in the Audubon Ballroom, New York City, while addressing
§§§ an OAAU public rally.
E33'-.-37:."-1.
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* Mal was on arrival
. Dre J6 A6 Collins at Vanderbilt Clinie- Presbyterian Moepital,
,; New York Cit on February 21, 1965. I
;"rrt.§ n7Ph-4/HP-5e
D lo L45', O roh 18, l965,-a review f New York City
'_ Department of Public Health, death ceitificate number 133' lists Malcolm X Little!, also knownéas hl Hajj Malik E1
- - Shabazz, 23-ll 97th Street, Queens,, ew- ork, date of birth -
May 19, l925,;at Nebraska, father - Ear -Little, mother -
Louise Helen,'died 6n February 21, l§65 The death certificate
reflected that on February 21, 1965, Milton Helpern, M. D.,
Chief Medical Examiner, New York City, certified the death
1' of Malcolm K. Little, caused by multiple shot-gun slugs and. 23 bullet wounds of the chest, heart
lit;-is.;;-S L='92*i;i.i1e3._;i-ii
ll - 3- BA|E5L,_/I-_&* '$BJ%5p'1m&:.}1Q! 4§ This document contains neither re¢$§§Z%a§¬§%ne norlgénglgsione
of the FBI, It is the property of the FBI and is loaned to
your agency; it and its contents are not to be distributed
outside your agency.
/ 15120:
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Christ, New York City, on February 27, 1965, and he was
buried at Ferneliff Cemetery, Hartsdale, New York.
wanted
funeral
ofGrave diggers at the Ferncliff Cemetery
to leave Malcolm K=e coffin above ground until the
party left the cemetery. Attorney Milton R. Henry
Pontiac, Michigan, insisted that the coffin be lowered by
members of the "Nationalists" and also that they would
bury Malcolm X's body rather than having him buried by any
white man. Services ended at Ferncliff Cemetery at
12:58 p.m., February 27, 1965, with Malcolm X being buried
by members .'>f the MIVII.
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Illoeh Ii Little
l; QEPENDIX T
ORGANIZATlQN,0F AFRO-AMERIQAN UNITY QAAQ1 4
' On June 28, 196A, MALCOLM X LITTLE, rounder andri
leader ef the Muslim masque, Incorporated MEI!, publicly
announced the formation of a new, all Negro, militant civil
rights action group to be known as the Organization of Afro-
American Unity OAAU!, with himself as Chairman. This
announcement was made at a public rally held by the MMI
in the Audubon Ballroom, Broadway and 166th Street, New
York City.
A printed and published statement of basic OAAU
aims read by MALCOLM X at this meeting indicates that it
shall include "all" people of African descent in the
Western Hemisphere, as well as "our" brothers and sisters
on the African continent. It is patterned after the "letter
and spirit" of the Organization of African Unity establishedéby Aggégan heads of States! at Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, in
33» -
A recording of the remarks of MALCOLM X at this
meeting indicates that the aim of the OAAU is to eliminate
differences between Negroes so they can work together for
"human rights," while the initial objective is to
"internationalize" the American civil rights movement by
taking it to the United Nations. LITTLE condemned the non-
violent civil rights movement and claims that Negroes should
be taught to protect themselves, when and if necessary.
The OAAU will sponsor a program for Negroes of education,
politics, culture, economics and social reform.
On August 19, 196b, a confidential source advised
that the headquarter: of the nuan-are located 1n Mm; head-
quarters, Suite 128, Hotel Theresa, 2090 Tth Avenue, New Yorx
City. N
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Malcolm L Little
1 , 1- HPPENDH 1
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ll-T593! !'l°§QUE:_ I1!¢°RP°FATEPl1Y|l£l 1 "
The March 13, 1964, edition-of "Tho N08 York Tilllghhaah
a daily newspaper published in New York, New York, contsino0*" '
ah article oh page 2o which indicated that hatcoah x {LITTLE},
former national official of the Nation of Islam NOI! who
broke with the NOI on March B 196R, publicly announced inNew York City on March 12 1961;, that he had formed the MuslimMosque, Incorporated MMI5, The MMI, according to the article
would be a broadly based politically oriented black nationalist
movement for Negroes only, financed by voluntary contributions.
In this public statement MALCOLM X urged Negroes to abandon
the doctrine of non-violence when it is necessary to defend
themselves in the civil rights struggle, and he also suggest
that Negroes form rifle clubs to protect their lives and
property in time of emergencies in areas where the govern-
ment is unable or unwilling to protect them.
Incorporation papers of the MMI filed on March 16,
l96h, with the Business Section, Clerk of Courts, New York
County, New York, New York, reflect that the MI was
incorporated under the Religious Corporation Law of the
Q'l':|+n nf New V01-92Lr 1-n wnrllr fnr92 1-ha 1r1na'r921"ln nf' thn Tmlnmin L--i---iv I10 an-n --Q -- -v-v --v-a-- -w- vI0w' -.l.r_.-- v'--9° -- -v--v -.------v
Faith and Islamic Religion in accordance with accepted
Islamic principals." The principal place of worship to be
located in the Borough of Manhattan, New York, New York.
The May 23, 1965, edition of the "New York
Amsterdam News," a weekly Negro newspaper published in
New York City, contained an article by columnist JAMES
BOOKEH in which he indicated that he had heard that the
visit by MALCOLM X with Muslim leaders during his African
tour has changed him to become soft in his anti-white
feelings and to become more religious.
On October 6, 196R, a confidential source advised
that the hhl is apparently affiliated with the true orthodox
Islamic Religion through its affiliation with the Islamic ;
Foundation of New York!, 1 Riverside Drive, New York City. i
The only teachings of the MMI are on the Islamic Religion. '
A second confidential source advised on October 20,
196b, that the headquarters of the MMI are located in Suite
128, Hotel Theresa, 2090 Seventh Avenue, New York, New York,
:
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1 . APPENDIX i?
NATION OF ISLAM, formerly
referred to as the Muslin ~-
Cult of Islam, also known as 1
Muha_mmadjs_ Temples of Tslam__ _
. I
In January, 1957, a source advised ELIJAH MUHAMMAD
has described his organization on a nationwide basis as the '
"Nation of Islam," N01! and "Muhammad's Temples of Islas."
1
On May 8, 1965, a second source advised ELIJAB
MUHAMAD is the national leader of the N01; Muhammad's temple
of Islam No. 2, 5335 South Greenwood Avenue, Chicago, illinois,
is_the national headquarters of the NOT; and in mid-1950,
MUHAMMAD and other NOI officials, when referring to FWHAMMAD'8
organization on a nationwide basis, commenced using either
"Mosque" or "Temple" when mentioning one of "Muhammad's
Temples of Islam." 1 _
The NOI is an all-Negro organization which was
originally organized in 1930 in Detroit, Michigan. MUHAMMAD
claims to have been selected by Allah, the Supreme leing,
to lead the so-called Negro race out of slave in the wilder-
ness of North America by establishing an independent blacknation in the United States. Members following MUI-uMMAD'S
teachings and his interpretation of the "Koran belzeve there
is no such thing as a Negro; that the so-called Negroes areslaves of the white race, referred to as "wl'%t_e devils," in
the United States; and that the white race, ecause of its
exploitation of the so-called Negroes, must and will be
destroyed in the approaching "War of Armageddop;P 9292
In the past, officials and members of the NOI,
including MUHAMMAD, have refused to register under'the
provisions of the Selective Service Acts and have ieclared
that members owe no allegiance to the United Stated-92
I .
On Ma! 5- 1958, the first source advise MUHAMMAD
had, upon advice of legal counsel, tempered his personal 7
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_ g,_ APPENDIX
NATION OP ISLAM, formerly =
referred to as the Muslim i
Cult or Islam, also known as
Mgggmmadlg Temples or IslamO
- On Mar 7, 196R, a third source advised Muhammsd'
had, early in July, 1958, decided to de-emphasize the religiousaspects of the teachings of Islam and to stress the economic
benefits to be derived by those Negroes who Joined the N01.
This policy change, according to MUHAMMAD, would help himacquire additional followers and create more interestlin
his programs. . e
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ma-non or ISLAM, mosque #7, .
new Yomc cm _ , _
On May 5, 1963, a source advised that the Nation
. of Islam NOI! affiliate in New York City is known as
Mosque #7, also known as Temple 7, and is located at
162 West ilbth Street, New York City. Mosque # is
part of the NOI headed by ELIJAH MUHAMMAD, with head-
quarters in Chicago, Illinois. Mosque #7 has two
branches; Mosque #78 at 105-03 Northern Boulevard,
Queens, New York City, and Mosque #?C at 12G Madison
Street, Brooklyn, New York.- These branches are part
of Mosque #7.
The date Mosque #7 originated in New York city1.. __J_ 1______-L5 HUI; KNOWN.
However, in connection with the origin or
Mosque #7, it should be noted that in 1953 a second source
advised that there was a Temple of the N01 known to source
then as the Muslim Cult of Islam! in New York Cit locatedat 135th Street and 7th Avenue, as far back as l9K7.
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and severe! previous oonnnatcettoe leterenoed teletrelerdln thin latter hev 111211 an "statueh;r!>re9orteP relatln to murder oiA Little. It appears sear; o e ypee in snot
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§:IIR;Y PM, nnncu TUENTYNINE sxkfvrxvz THAT no P
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Wu Airtel Tglislsrmm ; . I-55'1' . A 0 -9 _. Priamyr _ ._|_.»-_,j;.__1
an 1-unnn¢1q-----up-n--11¢--n-I-u 1
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_ Director, FBII100 399921! '_ I 9 . ,1 9
lsnc, New York 05-0999!
: Legat, Ottawa 00-1469! Iwc!-~§
Subject: 'llALCOLI IQDLITTLB . =~a|=0n:.1:.1:::-1 IJONTAI
1 IS - III TTZEIS =.l~1CUl5SIFlElI
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Deleted under exemptionlel ML! - with no se§|e¢al_ie__ _mmnn IVIHIHQ for release m you. " A " "
information pertained only to a third party with no reference to you or the subject of your request.
lnformetion only to 8 third party. Your neme is listed in the title only.
Documents originated with another Government agencyes!. These documents were referred to that
agency ies! for review and direct response to you.
Pages contain information furnished by another Government agencyes!. You will be advised by the FBI as
to the releasability of this information following our consultation with the other agency ies!.
Page e} withheld for the following reason s!:
For your information: _ __ W; E __ _ _ _
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Pages contain information furnished by another Government agencyes!. You will be advised by the FBI as
to the releasability of this information following our consultation with the other agencyes!.
Page s! withheld for the following reason s!:
For your information: _ _ W; _ _ __
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Re Beaten letter te Director dated 3/3,
and Boston airtel to Director dated 3/8/65, which
enclosed copy of a letterhead memorandum captioned
as above.
Enclosed for the Bureau are eight copies and
for New York two copies of a letterhead memorandum dated
and captioned as above. This letterhead memorandum is
t not being classified since it is no %¢'infomation it eontains would r- I! . P Q
was interviewed by SA-no- - ' I
mentioned as ha
concern ng members of
of Islam No. 13, Springfield, Mass
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L Bosto b to establish thet} whereabouts of on Februar 21
5 4' " 1965, beyond the face euee He sas repsrted ts ha¥e=iefthis residence at 1130 a.m., on the morning of February 21,
1965, and was seen driving off in his automobile. He wasnot present at the services of Muhammad's Temple of Islam
No. 11 on the afternoon of February 21, 1965.
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February 21, 1 , e was in fac .
Any further information developed will be
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MALCOLM K.
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in the
slaying of Malcolm 1 and he himself first heard of iton a radio newscast while he was in his home on February
21, 1965. He stated that he does not believe that Muslims
were responsible for the slaying and he has heard nothing
from fellow Muslims which would make him think differently
or which would make him think any member of the Boston Temple
might have been involved.
511! -e
suffering from a lacerated
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NO . 13,
51.0. n
.-- MALCO éK. LITTLE kéf
er
was treated by removing ¥%
it and obiliziunti hospital repor. s owin accident;
A characterization of the National of Islam
and Muhammad: Temple of Islam No. 11 is contained in
the appendix attached hereto.
Muhammad's Temple of Islam
eld, Ha were absent from
mention in Temple No. 13 o on the part
of Nation of Islam members against the followers of
Malcolm X.
A characterization of Muhammad's Temple of
Islam No. 13 is contained in the appendix hereto.
!slam ac!! vit Y
contacted and advised that
they had no information which would indicate that any of
the members of Muhammad's Temple of Islam No. ll had
participated in the slaying of Malcolm Little.
This document contains neither recommendations
nor conclusions of the FBI. It is the property of the FBI _
and is loaned to your agency; it and its contents are not
to be distributed outside your agency.
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APPENDIX
NATION OF ISLAM, formerly
referred to as the Muslim
Cult of Islam, also known as
Muhgmmadfs Templesnog Islam;
In January, 1957, a source advised Elijah Mhammad
has described his organization on a nationwide basis as the
"Nation of Islam," NOI! and "Muhammad's Temples of Islam."
On May 8, 196R, a second source advised Elijah
uhammad is the national leader of the NOI; Muhammad's Temple
of Islam No. 2, 5335 South Greenwood Avenue, Chicago, Illinois,
is the national headquarters of the NOI; and in mid-1960,
Muhammad and other NOI officials, when referring to Muhammad's
organization on a nationwide basis, commenced using either
"Bbsque" or "Temple" when mentioning one of "Muhammad's
Temples of Islam."
The NOI is an all-Negro organization which was
originally organized in 1930 in Detroit, Michigan. Muhammad
claims to have been selected by Allah, the Supreme Being, to
lead the so-called Negro race out of slavery in the wilderness
of North America by establishing an independent black nation
in the United States, Members following Muhammad's teachings
and his interpretation of the "Koran" believe there is no
such thing as a Negro; that the so-called Negroes are slaves
of the white race, referred to as "white devils," in the
United States; and that the white race, because of its
exploitation of the so-called Negroes, must and will be
destroyed in the approaching "war of Armageddon."
In the past, officials and members of the NOI,
including Muhammad, have refused to register under the
provisions of the Selective Service Acts and have declared.
that members owe no allegiance to the United States.
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APPENDIX
NATION OF ISLAM, formerly
referred to as the Muslim
Cult of Islam, also known as
Muhammad's Temples ofWIslsm_ Cont.!
On Nhy 5, 1958, the first source advised Muhammad
had, upon advice of legal counsel, tempered his personal
statements and instructions to his ministers concerning the
principles of his organization in order to avoid possible
prosecution by the United States Government; however, he did
not indicate any fundamental changes in the teachings of his
organization.
On May 7, l96#, a third source advised Muhammad
had, early in July, 1958, decided to de-emphasize the
religious aspects of the teachings of Islam and to stress
the economic benefits to be derived by those Negroes who
Joined the NOT, This policy change, according to Mhammad,
would help him acquire additional followers and create more
interest in his programs.
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mnm-mmD's TEMPLE or ISLAM N0. 11.,
BOSTON, massscnussm-rs, ALSO REFERRED
TO AS mp NATION cs ISL-AM,_ NOI!_ ,__
On March 18, 195%, a source stated that the
Nation of Islam NOI! had become active in Boston,
Massachusetts, and knew that it had held meetings as
early as November, 1953. A
On Nay ll, 196%, a second source stated that
the Temple of Islam in Boston, Massachusetts, is known
as Muhammad's Temple of Islam No. ll or Muhammad's
Mosque No. ll. It is located at 35 Intervals Street,
Dorchester Boston!, Massachusetts, and is the local
branch of Muhammad's Temple of Islam whose headquarters
are in Chicago, Illinois.as-~~_-_s_. also H, ' ..._- +- -_ _ _ __ AL_,_.:-_t_-_, , , ,_, .,, , , - ___
' O
APPENDIX
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L._ APPENDIX
MUHAMMAD'S TEMPLE OP ISLAM NO. 13;
SPRINGFIELD, MASSACHUSETTS,
ALSO REFERRED TO AS THE ~
NATION or ISLAM N01!, 3 __ _ 1 §~@-
'1!
On March 9, 1955, a source advised that the Nation
of Islam N01! had, at that time, Just opened a Temple
in Rnr1n¢P1e1d_ Msssschusettse-- r-'w-- -"I --
On May ll, 196R, a second source advised that NOI
Temple No. 13 is located on the corner of Oak and Tyler
Streets, Springfield, Massachusetts. The membership refer to
Temple No. 13 as either Muhammad's Temple of Islam No. 13
or Muhammad's Mosque No. 13. This source stated that
Temple No. 13 is a part of the national organization which has
its headquarters in Chicago, Illinois.
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to Justice-'uua=»i-;;.bi.-»@.af;.~~;1-A_~;@¢r@:;>:;;;a;;e1?..1- A .tried T 1' _- 4; ;'he was
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to start MM _.-;., . ..
a11ow.it.. felt the NMI Becurity~_._-.5
was inaoeq "*"-;'=;5;,,,*orders on security. ' '
nothing about the as he _ _ _ _ _
F qstatedhe feltthe police were indirectly "='_i-""-¥.*__§_"1;responsible _or the rder of M31501-M LITT13 B5 they 51¢ 110%.. 1* j,
furnish LITTLE suffic ent protection when he appeared in," .-._,.. -._ I ___ v 5 ' _. ;: V_ _ 1: :_._ .: _ __ i ._ ;_____-_»-._.1..Pu -1°!" H --
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and he stated up-;_--_-_ ,__e,;_*J.___tk-;:.¢-_-*1,-,.
' ' -tsstgtmmnsié-a '1i1'ti-bdtltea uaiom t1m&';aa mom
' LITTLE began his speech. _.LITTLE gave. the greeting Qf
-- and then stated "9;-others an}! Sisters,-,_-7 _--- .. ¢. ' _ _ '. .,- - _ . -. -. .. ,. _, _ - - _. >.. . _ t _ . _ p __,,__... , _:_9 _ _. _ J1 _ After I-I'I'ILE stated "Brothersand Sisters""a. ""commotion started a rewrons intrront or him." LI'1"1LE stoppedspeaking, came from behind the rostrum and a fen people - ,
TTIE ld th 1 to take it " started to stand. LI then to e peop e_ _ _eas and sit down. .Whi1e this was goigi on the__ indi92_ridua.;l,_,_",,-;;..,.
.. __ e t "Get your hand out otf ,5-;-IfEei , pocket. The "person beside HAYER stated, -"I'wasn't_ in your '1'}1»-f Jé '.* damn "pockets. -This was occurring a_.t_the same time as._jQj;q'1* - I.-I'I"1LE was speakingqphfter standing up HAYER pushed l'1i§__l"'°'"<"__;1,'_§? I _ coat back and pulled an object from his left side, eithei".'-'_ ;I ""b from ket or from his belt Qhe object looked metallic!-'"-'HAYER then pointed t t he took_ zit toward ,LI'1"1IE, :hen heard,-T11-:J:_t, t -what s ded like "a gunshot and re _ _o_ e _p cor. He. t_o1'd_-:5-,@-__1_=~. 1' -to_ get down but s__he___ua_s sti1._1,sitting,_.__ He _1atet t . . n ¢1-f19m.-.,.l1"-'7?» f-.'%3§¢=i-l =;-£=:=i""*-ii'-%i;;1'-'-*¥.
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FOIPA IIELETEII PIGE IIIFOIIIIITIUI SHEET
Pagels! withheld entirely at this location in the le. One or more of the following statements, wipe
indicated, eqiah this deletion. - - E
Deleted under exemption s! .. with no segregabla
material available for release to you.
Information pertained only to a third party with no reference to you or the subject of your request.
Information pertained only to a third party. Your name is listed in the title only.
Documents originated with another Government agency ies!. These documents were referred to that
agency ies! for review and direct response to you.
Pages contain information furnished by another Government agency ies!. You will be advised by the FBI as
to the releasability of this information following our consultation with the other agencyes!.
Pagelsl withheld for the following reason s!:
For your information: __ _ y _7_ _ A
The following number is
I/NA,y [uuference regarding these pages:
12 <70 I92 -7QUOP-@£l _y_s _ _ _
XXXH
DELETED PAGE S!
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NY TEL THREE TUENTYNINE SIXTYFIVEO.,_-
RTY SIXTYFIVE THA
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T0 D .ECTOR, FBI ---3---/lOO-39932l/A '1 -;_n.+,_--'¢L.'i..-.
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ALL IT - - . . . ' mew YORK nos-ssssv H252?! A I "
DAT - - I
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OLH K» LITTLE, AKA IS DASH HMICilia-lun_._
fa'0
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ADVISED-;1:I4REE'¢.
BUFILE
AILED to IN count,
INE SIXTYFIVE ON CHARGES OF POSSESSION GF A GUN-
znzo on: tuousnnn DOLLARS BAIL. vAs 01453!!-' MALCOLM x-s
: on Two rwzurvcun SIXTYFIVE unzn MALCOLM x was KILLED.
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.4These persons and remarks regarding the ROI were on the tirst_part Qoi the show only. The information adds nothing more to shat has '_§B
already been reported regarding the H01 and pertinent parts can %m
be readily utilized in annual or semi-annual reports. It is '"
therefore not being put in letterhead memorandum form and is being
furnished for the Bureau and interested otiices:
The following is the transcript:
EUP'8 SHDI - PEBRUAR! 27, 1965 ,
Good evening, ladies and gentlemeni
and welcome to another session of
conversations unlimited on Kups,
Show. Tonight, because the Black
Muslims ere holding their Eetionsl
Convention in Chicago, we thought
in keeping with our etiorts to C
be on top ot the nets and to
present all sides oi the question
that we would have varieus .
representatives for the Black
Muslims, against the Black Muslims,
and perhaps one or two who are
neutral, Let! neet our guests
now, First, this is AUBREY mums
of Boston, torner member of the
Iuslims, whose article, "The Black
Iuslims Are A Fraud" appears in
the current issue of the Saturday
Evening Post. Hr. BARNETTE tlew
here from Boston and appears in the
studio today under police protection,
Next is GORDON HALL, one of America's
leading authorities on the extremists
oi both the leit and the right. He's
a one-man organization." From the '
great State ot Missouri, this is ACongressman nxcmnn HJI.-LING, as ' "'
Democrat, who suggests methods tor",
speeding up the legislative process?
in our Congress in his nee book, e
"House Out oi Order", Next isKUP:
- 2 .-
§
I
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. $1 AUBREY: ,
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- __. ._ .,__.- . _._....-. 1»-v.-*___i.,._,_? - ,__'-v-.. _-q_c;._-7,-_--»v----qw-92---=¢--._e--Y-_ ..-- A-I, .
.4 !
0 0
an
Dr. C. ERIC LINCOLH, Social - , §
Philosopher, currently at Howe .~
University. He is the author oi,
the definitive etudy called Th9_'
Black Incline in America. Hie
newest book in "Hy Face is Black".
And thin is JOHN ALI, National
Secretary oi the Bdack Muslin!
and head or their school here. .
I: IRV KUPCINET of the "¬hica¢o_
Sun-Times", your moderator, Ind
we'll Join our lively group right
aiter this message. _
Gentlemen, I'd like to get right
to the point. AUBREY here, when
we have introduced already as -
a young nan from Boston, has
written an article in the Saturday
Evening.Post in which he says . n 1
the Black Iuelins are a traud.
He appears here, as we have announced
under police protection. 'He
suttered e terrible beating in 7
Boéton and won a court case as a
result of the heating. A number A
oi bones were fractured and other
injuries, right , AUBREY?
. r at
.50 ' . _ '
Ihy do you think the Black Muslims -
are a fraud?" A .'
Id nay the Elect iue1imi.ire i_£raud because they have deceived '
the pub116.u They have tricked ;.r
their members and they are not Yt-.carrying out any oi the program that
they have proJected.. _
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IUP:
AUBREY:
O
KUP:
AUBREY:a :3 ._ :! V I
Can you tell um what, more . e
have claiaed to ie .
_ e ' , _ , ' '-'
Yea. Iell, one of the reaeona thy
I joined the Black Iualim novenent
was hecauee I thought it van an .
organization that ltood for a lot.
of ideals that I could uphold.
And thia was the idea of moral
uplifting. I thought they had a
prograa for inpreving the eerel
climate in.the Negro community,
a program for reforming Juvenile
delinquents and for preventing
dope addiction and so forth.
I_thought that they had a program
of economic upliftment. I
thought they had an educational
program and after being im.the
movement for some time, l finally
left the movement in disgust
because the Iuslims, while they r,
publicly pronounced they had
these programl, they bad never
put them into practice and it in
my conclusion not that they don?t
intend to put them into praotice..
Row, after you announced that you
were leaving the Black Muslim!
or the Mosque in Boeton, Mosque
Number 11, this is when you
suffered that beating which you
attributed to your defection?
no. I had left the Mosque in
1963, in November of 1963, and
I didn't suffer this beating until
about a year later. I thought-
that I could forget about the ' [
luslime, the Black Muslim Movement4. ,:- --specifically, the programe znqyt Q?
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CG 100-35635
* a . , . $5. _ _
H and I had put then aside and had
returned to the outside world oi-.*
reality, had pue to work in a
bank as an auditor. I iinally
decided I would take advantage
oi ny college training. I went
back, I left the organization and
went to work in the outside world.
And I thought I could forget about
the Black Muslims but I soon found
in August of 1964 that I couldn't
forget them because they didn't
iorget me."aw-unn- .
JOHN, this is a sort of a direct
attack, a frontal attack I sight _
say on the organization you
represent as Rational Secretary.KUP:
Iell, one oi the first things
that I'd like to say. lollwe've been well acquainted Ior
34 years with diiterent people
in America making attacks on
it, iUHAiAD and the original
Islam. First I'd like tobring this clear to you and
which I'm quite sure you are
Qware oi - the principle of
religion which is allowed or
protected by the Constitution.
And a person has a right to-
§~ , " practice any religion they wish.
» And so it is with us.' I mean
' this is, you might say, a sort
o£.a hypocrisy oi this subject
occurring on your show because
you don't rind this type oi
discussion comcerningAre1ig1oulactivity anywhere in merica
except tor relation to the I »
Iuslims who follow the HonorableJOHN:
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CO 100-35838
W ii
ELIJAH IUlAIMAD,- A person han .gw.
the prerogative to =orihip_ - _
anything an their religion. ;,
It they rant to say that this
cup is their religion pick! up
cup!, that in between them and
the person who will go along with
it. And it in no one: prerogative
to say it in or in not a religion.
Thie in guaranteed by the '
Constitution. And in thi: oaee
ve had the original Ielam Ihihl
has been taught by the Honorable
ELIJAH IIUEAIIJIAD in this country .
tor the past 34 yearn. And he il
the nan of God and it Ie re wrong '
then it: between un and our Maker.
It is no one: prerogative to
olassiiy us or to say we are
approved oi by any_eooiety or
by any other group of people.
And Ie're not Seeking it and
we don't ask for it.
KUP: That wasn't AUBREYe point.
Iell, I'm saying that BARNETTB
here who alleged to have been
with us; I mean, we can
understand the article in the
Saturday Evening Pot. we know
i the reputation ot the Saturday"
Evening Post an a very reckleae.magazine because they have ' "
several euits.against then not
for libel and.slander; In fact,
even the_subJeota that he says on
your show are iubjecte to Y'"f
inspection by attorney because"
we have an attorney'here who in .
in for this purpoae. And th A
Saturday Evening PéSt has 1 ' ' ~
reputation for slander. In tact, -JOHN:
I61
92 ,n {
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gs KUP:' 1
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I gather you put your threat in
there very slyly, right? j
One o!_the biggest awards ever
made against a publication has
been against the Saturday Evening
Poet, ehioh is also e negazine
which is beset with mismanagement
and loss oi advertising review
and -
I an not
down.thegoing to defend or knock
Saturday Evening Post -
All this is in connection with
understanding the eeurue that is
behind this nan doing this,
because he is a paid man. He
was paid for this article in
collaboration with someone else
and we are very much acquainted
with Quislinga and how they get
their due and so naturally the
history.o£ this must be taken
i iute account, tee, uheu you diecue:
this article on your show because
you mentioned the Saturday Evening
Poet, which right now, this
magazine is suffering the lone ct
advertising revenue and also
circulation and a shakenp on their
board of management and stopkholders
tight and everything else. And '"
they are.deing everything they can-
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JGn.:I""
AUBREY:
JOHN.
AUBREY:
JOHN
AUBREY:
KUP:
JOHN:4
the article etatee that he vrote 3
the article in collaboration vith:
eomeone elee. I mean thin in 9."; L
the Saturday Evening Poet ie not
a magazine of fact but ie a
magazine of fiction. This ie the
reputation of the magazine. They
have had more aerial, more document,
more theater and playe written
ofrom their etorieg of fiction,
like this, than any other publication
in the country. And Hr. BARHETTE,
we might eay, euffere from a
figment of imagination.
Fell I certainly have everything,
every bit of evidence to document
everything I've eaid in this -
Iell, if you have any evidence
of anything or fraud of_anything,
then you present it to the court.
I have documents to back up every
statement that I have made. '
Any evidence that you have. e '
And when you call somebody a
fraud, I mean, first you are a
college student, and you cite
your reputation for ~
The public - -
Please, one at a time. Let
JOHN finish. e, .
And you cite your reputation for .
being an educated man and 9 ;
have evidence, evidence vhich' _
should be presented in courta..' ~~~
If you have evidence of anything T
of being a fraud, you should -
present thie thing in a court U -
and not going around by making'
reckless accusation; as you have ~
done and are still doing,
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CG 100-35635
moan:
lromr:
AUBREY:
JOHN:
AUBREY:
JOHH:
AUBREY:
JOHN:
AUBREY:
JOHN:
AUBREY:
JOHN: "é. I-ml
.__O
~__92. ,7" - _ .~. _.V _, .._. . _ |
I an submitting ny claims toua
court of public opinion.
Because you have none, Ihat do
you ca11 is a !raud?: Ihat do
you say is a fraud? Kane one
thini.
Each program that has been
projected is a fraud.
Kane one program. Kane one!
The economic prograI._
- eeeeeie
Haee one,
Prosrm?
The economic program. The
$3,000,000 Islamic Center.
Ihat about it?
It hasn't been.bui1t.
A11 right. Then what about
it? What 15 I fraud about it?
It is a fraud because the money
was co11ectedfor one purpose,
and the purpose the money was
collected ior, the money was -
never used for that purpose._
How that is where I won't say
that you are a liar because~
1'11 ruin this show, and I!
much too intelligent for that
but 1'11 say as LINCOLN told
one oi his'genera1n that you
be reckless with the truth. '
But I'll say this, the economic
The three programs that ea:
announced by Hr. HUHAHAB,p _
Do you know what some oi the
money was raised for and an92
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CG 100-35635 - It
AUBREY: wait a minute. Please, please; __;
JOHN:
AUBRIY:
JOE]:
AUBREY
_ r -.
JOHN:
AUBREY
JOHN:
'--Q
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#i>BPr¥!. 4 A rug-'
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' i .lI92-
You laid $3,000,000.
The $3,000,000'progran.
There was never no $3,000,000
prograa._ Iirat you have your
tact: nixed. There waa a
$20,000,000 program which _
we announced.
: The Islamic Center prograa.
Ia a $20,000,000 program. .
And your reputation for keeping
up to date on th1nga_waa never
very accurate anyway but whenyou mention about a $3,000,000
program iirat you mention aomething
which does not exist. There never
- waa a $3,000,000 program.
: 1.comp1ete1y agree with that -
There was a $20,000,000 program
which was announced by Hr. IUHAMMAD
and tunda -. _ _ v
1 ; "_-:-:---'-';r§'-'
Let ne-clear up one'p6£nt]'JOH!, Aon the program. 'In your article r"
you say that this was a $20,000,000
educational program} '$3,000,000
waa raised and never,apent¢»;%,,3H. 5I _ ., I -.. -L : '_ |. ,_ 4~_ I _ _ '. . - | .- r .'.1 . ' ~ ', ' _. , ,|- . .,.'_ - ,_4 . . I :'.-"Isl" 5 Q. 2 i ' I: V ' ,_ -' I . ' I I I ' Ip . _..., . . _ . _.-.. 92_.. .. .. ._ .I'- ' " - -KUP: | 0 ' l . that 11 what the problem was 4 1
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AUBREY:
AUBREY:
JOHI: ~
AUBREY!
AUBREY:
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He doesn't know anything ahout_thii.
This ie e lie; I lay he doeIn't
have any recto for this and the @
tact, Ir. BABHETTI,' Ie have a_
warrant out tor hi: now in Bolton.
ior nieappropriatiou oi funds,
0
Iere you'£ani1iar with that,
AUBREY?
No, air. Thin ie a quite new and
reckleae charge - _
I ' '
It ie not reckleae. ; _
- didn't even ewear a warrantont, ' ' ' ~
Listen, he was in the organization
and this i|'one-of the_reaeons
why he detected from the group
because nieueing tunde and thingl.- ~ 0 -1
I leit the organization onetine Q
This is one thing he had never
etateq. I mean, when you write
your article why you left, you-ehould - ' '
It took them lone time to figure I
had misappropriated some £nnda,.r
when I left the organization in;
1963- 'Thii ie 1965.- And you ,
Just getting your warrant out?
Bounds like a trumped-up charge
to ne.n -
Another trumped-up article, I
mean, are you'juet writing thil
article now? You haven't listed 92
one thing as a fraud, Ihat in
a fraud?w =e
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AUBREY:
JOB:
AUBREY
JOHN:
AUBREY
JOHN:
gonna!
JOHH2
KUP:
GORDON:
e
JOHN:1
The entire program in a trau,
. ,
low what in a,traud? Ihat program?
: Ieil, take the program etep by step;
1'11 take it atop by etep. A
: Ie11, take a look -
It'e on the back page of "Muhammad
_ Speaks" newspaper.
Bight. Ie're for the war of tree
Bight. '
I'd_1ike to recite once again
that I eieh one at a time would
apeak. GORDON, you wanted_to
get a word in edgewiae. ¢
I want to make the point that -
lince this gentleman makes a
, big inane oi the courts and your
attorney being here, which in
o an old gambit I night add,
talking bueineil of getting
into a aquabble like thin,
and they iant you to know"
~ somebody: liltening and thereior
you're not Iuppoled to lay T7"t"
anything; You know 1! the courts
and the attorneys and all the
rent are involved, why don't»
you take thin gentleman to' """
courtI1nce the Saturday Evening
Poet -,1 ......92 ./-a.-e
I mean, one --
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GOBDOH: Let ne finish. It he is
' allegedly so reckless, take
hin to court and prove that his=
charge that you people are a A
iraud, which I would completely
endoree having'studied the.
Iuslims nyself. Ihy don't you
take hi: to court and have the
courts decide in the United
States whether what he said is
true or false."-You sake a big
issue or all this business oi.
attorneys and all of that -._' a
JGEH: !elli=lihe l gaid again, one -
And when thin warrant} by the
II. I 'GORDON:
One thing not concerning you at
all is our religion and you
have no right to tell no _ '
how I should act in my religion,
I nean, whatever your religion,JOHN:5
that ie your business. I mean this
is the thing that is going on
where the religion of black
people has been decided by
white people and they tel1"
then hoi they should conduct
their affairs. This is what
--"re have, what Ir. IUHAHHAD '_
protests, And how we practice
our religion is ct no concern y
to you. You practice yours
whatever say you Iilh, Thl.-i. tact that Islam is in this '
country is something which 10'
widely known." They have it in
- the laaonicSocietyZ' They'Tpractice it; And roe you to.g o
nay'that aur"r¢11g1ou is i " "_fraud, 'I can'expect this rrui"
you because Ir. MUHAMMAD teaches
the history oi the white people
y-14-. ' A92- Qi--l'
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I
in thie country and they are
oppoeed;to the religion oi
III!-I and the only eucceae tint
Ielan hae been in the last 34 3?
yeare eince the time he_haa been
preaching this religion.F It l
nean, ten yeare ago, you couldn't
iind the mention of Illll in I l
even in the printing, .Hil
parent corporation, the field
magazine; which publiahee the
Encyclopedia Brittanica, or one
oi the reference bookl -
The World Book. KUP:
They call it Iohammedien. Only
since Hr. MUHAMMAD hae been
teaching has there been any
respectability given to thin
religion and much oi it. And
concerning your trying. There are
in tact. You don't even believe in
your own Constitution when you tell
ne hoe to practice my religion.5_I' =~,=-#1 *hi" 1! 99* _v9~1=_-vr=="°s!*1'~.-__'JOHN:
GORDON: Thie man has eo many charges, We'll
be all day catching up with hii.' Let!
go back to the beginning premise. I
thought 9.
JOHN: _ Let'e go back to the principle of
religion; _ _
KUP: the iloor, please, _d
- . I
AUBREY: Beginning with the rriua." The religion!
o the religion"o1 Ialan an p=a¢t1a¢a"uyp
the Hation[the ao¥called'Nation"o!'I*
Islam, is no eimiIaritybetween orthodox
Ielam and'what the Nation of Ielaa
practicee. ~- . A
- 15 - ,1'9! §P3 .:¥Y..I9E
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CG 100455685
JOHI:
.AUBRI!a
JOHIr
AUBREY!
JOHN:
-AUBREY:'.JOHN: ' '4-4_ . . V... -1.4 -a
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_IelI,'i£ you aunt underatandj Q Q
1: got auat.talk religion 1n'h.,.,%¢..
oi the priuciplea oi Illll ia that you
pray tire tinea a day and there are .
certain atepe and procedurea that you
auat go through.in order to pray, low,
in all the yeara that I have been in
that tenple,_nenbera have been trying
to get the niniater to teach then how
to go through theae "rakaa" or how to:
perform the prayera. -They have not._been taught yet. Y A r i
Iell, that ia aonething that I aay ia
a lie, .I mean, hot we - again you
muat underatand,.-I can understand
your being ao innocent not knowing
because you are being ured like IO
many of our.peop1e, being paed
by'the white nan to tight one
oi their cauaea; Because one,o _
how_I practice religion; ,I£'1 "
want to Iorahip this cup and
worship it on%hat table or on
top of the table, that ia up to '
lo, There ia no auch thing aa 92.
0lfth0dOX 3 _ . _ r _ _ ' _-.j_*_f ..
. » - ' _ !
Iell, it that ia that you want *
to do, that ia what you ahould -
tell, that ia that you tell the x;-iP
public. That ia what you want'Y
to do -_' _ __ ' . _
1; don't have to tell the publt.
You tell the public.-;- r -r__ _ ... .___ _,
you ahouldnt tell the - ; *"-', .. .; _ . »_-,_- C A .1 Q I '.- - ~ ' u .
You don't have to tell the pub11¢.?"' non " 92 *' Q- I <-
publie one thing and do another rd
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IUP:
JOHI:
JOHN:
KUP:-
AUBREY:
JOHN:
AUBREY:
JOHN!
AUBREY!
JOHNS
iUBREY{
n .,,e.~- V. . G _ U 1-'_ _ .
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CO 10035635. .7
' One st e tine, please. y .
It is surprising how you silo!
yourselt to be used like this.
How, the tertheet concern =.
Let's go to the University o£- '
Isles. '
It is one - '
JOHN, let him finish,
Row, s university by all accepted
preetieee, ene nr..LI!GOLH, yen
straighten me out, you straighten
us out on this e .
Speak tor yourself. I asked for
no tlnt reason like that for your
nsgazine article. . _ _ . ,-u
Nov I university, in order to be
claeeiiied ee e university in
this country, you have to have '
s certain number'o£ undergraduate
and gradunte echools.' Nov the A
Nation oi Is13I.hns.been advertising
ior years in their brochures the .
University oi_Is1an. ~
*11.?'1$h?- ?1'.1 $. .115 9?".-. . .
This is only n grammar school.
Br1===._ ii 2%---.*:'. ' fl ; _ - .
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It is only s'grhmnar ichool._. It's not n'univereity; It o
doesn't have iny.col1eges,' It _,
- doesn't have hny college'studentsY
But ?et it: advertised ee the
University 0! Isles. This is s
trend, . -- 1
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JOHI8
AUBREY2
JOHN!
AUBREY£
JOB!
AUBREY!
@-
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wean:- is
All right, let's go to that n0I. 1
You say that is_i fraud. x_
That is a traud. _
Iell, this sill shoi you ho!
little I seen, to be s college
student, this is really surprising.
This will show that you are still
on the indoctrination oi
the ihites. In fact, under
Ir. MUHAMMAD Ie are the only people
who rightly have the title to use
the_Iord University because
ALLAH is the God oi the_universe
and Islam is universal.- And
using names, any person nay use
any nane they wish to go by as"
long as they are not using tor,
is hot sn illegal sass, And -
Islas is universal --
It is a fraud, _ -
And so when so say university, '
the University of Islas has nere?;:
been represented as g school, as a
school oi graduate studies. It" '
hes been alssys_been to1d.- -
Just h minute; by all accepted __ .
standards_a nniversity_has to '.--
have - . _
Thht is by your; by white'msn§s
standards. By your standards.
By tho_things that you go by.
FQIhen no live in a - t '
. _ . V 4
F°.7P9; .. 'M..r.- .L. o._ o
country we usually use the '
English language.
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IUP:~¢
JOHN!
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JOHN!
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JOHN;
KUPS
JOHN:
KUP: .:A_
lb who have knowledge, vs hnvs,; i* -we know, that-vhen Is sly the ' 1
University of Isles it is -
reterring to the school and -
Let se get this straight non,
JOHN - - -
Yes? h ' . . '
You say the University of Islam
is e grsde'schoo1?v i _
It goes'1ros the kindergarten tothe 12th grade. Right. And ithas never been represented as -. . Al
~- - . . .
It has nothing to do Iith -
It is not a graduate eohool, "
Or s university.
The name of the school-is the
University of Islam, »- n - n O
Ue11,_the_-_ }_ _ _ _ H
Becouse Islam is univerenli '
It aseuages ?! even more than this
Ior1d..__._ ___ V ?___ _
loll, you explain that by '_ f --"saying this is your decision to
que1i£y_that nnne.W __ _ }__»
No,_ Ir. IUHAHHAD's decieion,T
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JGII
AUBREY:
JOHNS
AUBREY:
JOHNS
AUBREY:
JOHN!'9
Tb quality this; which is his -
prerogative because university
involves sore than Just locale 0! o
soae buildings or 20 things.
These are things_o£ the white
Innis - =
It has to have a couple or under-
graduate schools present there.
standards where they have the
American Association oi Colleges
where they say in order for a
university to exist'and they
have proof er it, say.a1l right
it_nust have 20 buildings, one""
library with 500 books and such and
such like that. We're not seeking
accreditation from that group and
we're not representing ourselves
as belonging to that group. And the
right oi this name to be on this
school which gees iron hindergarten
to_the 12th grade shich enyene knee:
and it you've been there and it you
ever was around, your eyes really
are closed much more than what we
thought. , . 1 ,
l*re_been in quite a tee tewns.g'
I
The'school hss.never been represented
:a'=nything more than that. And ii
lr._hUHAlMhD desires e
It has been represented as the
University of ls1en.= . ~
.A._-.. .
This is one oi the reasone'why he has
this.$20,000;000 program is to build,
is to build schools or our own along
our people." And ts here, and he: been
stating this that he'wants to build,
It is in his program, He wants'to
build; he wants to build houses.
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AIBRIY:
JOHH:
AUBREY:
JOHI8
AUBREY!
JOHN!
AUBREY:
JOB:
AUBREY:
JOHN: LA
1UP:
AUBREY!.. :__
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that in part or e program. That f
in e program.
And we have children, we have over -
500 children. Ie have children now
whonre going to echool and we don't
have delinquency existing anong
our children and it we had the -
tacilitien we would have - .
This in another trend-
nore than Incline going there.
J
This in another rraud.n That you .
don't have delinquency existing
nnong_hualin_children¢w l _"_ -. ¢., . .-
Right. The only delinquent we. -
hate in you and we're -~ =
I'n not -I " _ _ gH_
glad that you're not with ne.
1'; not going to belittle; o "1 "
1': not going to belittle anything
that you -
You belittle youreel! by heing.in
Pilbli-On _ _I . e » " ' 3' ' '
Let him finish, now. One at n
ti-Q0 -
It you do something 8-; l give'you
credit tor it; "But when you any ~
you don't hnye'any Juvenile' " '1
delinquency nnong.Husl1n children?
you're deceiving the people or i.. ,
you're deceiving youreelt, BecauneJuvenile delinquency definitely t"' '
does exist among the Muslin children.. - O
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CG 100-35635
JOEI:"
AUBREI:
JOHN:
AUBREY:
JOHN:
AUBREY:
JOHN:
IUP: ';
AUBREY:
JOHN:
AUBREY:
JOHN:
AUBREY:
JOHN:
r .
AUBREY:
JOB:
AUBREY:
JOHNS
AUBREY:vb ob
Hans ono. Nana ono.
Several cnsol-1
Rune one! '
In Boston,
Rani one!
In Boston -
Nana one! . _ -
Iqll, lot his nnno 1:, Joan;
' .
In_Boston','1oro is n case - U
Nine ono;- - R 1
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Kano one: '
n1; Iuslin parents nnd takonfto
his Christian parents in ordorto stsy_out 01 reform school: '
Nana one!
In Boston, Iassachusstts, that is
P9 9959!... .. .- ..H
Nino.theipoop1o; 1?noan yon'ar0"
citing something that it is a hypo. ~ VJ.-1
That is_ths'oas9;' ______ H 1H_
!&2°@ h?#°¥h=¥#¢#1.Pr°P°=1F¥°#- :»
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It is not h hypothetica1,csso."I=
know the case. . _ '
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whore a child was taken away Iron 7w
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JOHN:
AUBREY!
JOHI1.
KUP8 '
COIIRRCIAL
EU;
GORDQH:
JOHN:
GORDON:1
-5
Hose and noses.
I knew the case very well. And in Otact - c '
Hale the names. You say something
which is irrelevant, inature and not
pertaining to the issue. You are '
s sen which does not deal with facts.
Let's pause here n moment tor-s
message and we'll be right back.
GORDON, you want to get n word in
edgewise between these two
combatants. .
1'11 try to. It we accept the
basic premise tron this side oi the
table that n group establishes
itself as I religion in this country
and onceihaving established itself,
that no criticism should cone, "O
therefore, becnuse the person has
his own religion and that is his
business and not yours or mine.'
This would mean then thnt let us
say, then that we cnn have s '
Christian group anywhere in the '
United Statesset itselt up with the
word "Christian"; which is done all
the tine; the country is loaded
with hate groups with the word
"Christiin _in the title, -
Starts to speak! _ _ _ _h
Let ne'£inish.' And then they began
to assault Roman Catholics and"" .
Jews end anybody that they happenf %
to dislike;'but because they are a f
Christian religion, soécalled; and
inoorporated'nnder that title; no
one is allowed to say anything
-23.-
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GORDON:
JOHNSabout the viciousness of the ettscxn
on other groups because they are I
religion. This is e totally islse
premise and the Muslims, like ' "
everyhedy elee in the United Stetee,
ere subjected to press criticisms,
television criticisms, analysis .
and all the rest. There isncthing
sacred about ELHJAH MUMAMAD although
apparently you thin! I0. .
Iell, I'd like to answer you on
that. I mean, I can appreciate
nng understand yur type on this
because this is written what would
be done. Because Mr. MUHAMMAD
is s nan oi God, end we d@ht'
object to criticism; In tact, to
expect it because it is written
that the last day, the last day" "
would have attacks from unbelievers
and hypocrites and'devi1s. <nne'eo,
Ie can expect this; 'Ie understand
this coming iron yen. 'Becsuse you
ere opposed to Islam from the very
beginning. It is not your nature
to accept it; And we can under+ '
stand your criticizing it and going
against it and also opposing it and
getting others to do this because
it is written, that you'll be doing
this." _~ " _ Ȣ
Ybuieren't listening to that I
use saying beiore. .i , ._ H.q__,,. i__._. _"
Because, and iron your ettack on "
Mr;'MUHAMMAD's position.' Fred your
attack on Mr;'MUHAMMAD, this shows
the; this'shows the shallwwness.
bi your mente1ityL' I'nean,you'"'_
attach the'men because you are on'
this program; -.
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JOHN:
GORDON
JOHN:
GORDON
JQEE;O
O
Q
II sisply arid there in nothing g
sacred about hin. as that become
an attack?
I mean he is sacred. I mean, we
say that he is a nan from God,
and not something incorporated .
or going into the laws or the -
state on the religion 1aIs.- I
mean something that he has a
message direetly froi God.- And
it you object to his methods -
A final point, i
You have the +'
A iinal point - - 1-.
. -. 1
opportunity tooorro! hooooso he
will be at the Coliaeui '-f -
speaking there tomorroI'atT' '*
2:00 PI and never yet has.any
white person come up and ' 3 ; 1
denounced.the ieaohing'that'hei
teaching for the past 34 years ass
being something talse or fraud: -
as they have paid'peop1e amohg"
us to'do; This has'never, there -
has never been one vhite ean to -
denounce his} '1 mean5'the nan s
is teaching a religion. He ia~.;=
teaching our peop1e_to c1ean"
themselves ettg he is teaching
then not to he addicts;--He 1sT
teaching then to he ee1£~su££icient
and to do things for themselves.
Ihy Should you obJectto this?"
Ihy should you denounce this nanT.r
as not being sacred? 'Ihat'hae he.
done to you? How does this * O7
interfere with you? 92Teach1ng our
people the prinoiploo o! Isle; u
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GORDON: Can'Io gr Back'to vr:+ I said?
JON: Ho. Wait a ninuéo, -
GORDON: Ybu'ro baking a long-winded, a"
Can Io go back to that I said,
JOHN: Nb." You're trying to disguisu
youraelt and covpr up [email protected]
hatred for thii nan which IO
all know about., .
GORDON: I mean -
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CES:pma
JOHN: Because you have
You said a few minutes ago
that you never heard about me.GORDON:
JOHN: Ihy are you concerned about
him?
You said a re! minutes ago you
never heard about me. So how do
you know about all the things
I've said? -GQBDQE;
JOHN: Ihy are you concerned about
him? Ihy do you come on this
program? To discuss MUHAMMAD?
I told you -
KUP: Wait one second. This is getting
no place, JOHN. Let me turn to
Dr. LINCOLN. Let me turn to
Dr. LINCOLN, on one side.
Dr. LINCOLN, you've made a
definitive study of this group.
1'd like to get your opinion?
of the Black Muslim movement.
There is no doubt there is '
some good points to the organization.
Iell, as you know, I made the
study as a social philosopher
not as a partisan, not as an '
opponent of Islam and not as a"
salesman for Islam. what I did.
beginning in 1956, was to tri to
study the movement with all of
the toois that a socioiogist
_ 27 5LINCOLN:
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LINCOLN: normally uses and to get as much *
insight into the movement as I
could get. I feel that I know
a little bit about Islam as it is
taught by I. ELIJAH MUHAMMAD.
I do not claim to know all. After
all, I was a person outside the
movement and not inside and
there were certainly some things
that perhaps I possibly do not
know. But nevertheless I feel
that I know something about it
and certainly I know something
about it from the point of view
of a sociologist.
KUP: Now, you made a statement that there
is about 100 thousand members
which AUBREY has differed with
you on. He claims the membership
is much much smaller. About
7,000 I think, according to
your article. Is that right,
AUBREY?
AUBREY; Yes. The present membership
is at around 7,000, at the peak.
JOHN: Well, I'd like to comment on that
because, one -
KUP: One second.
LINCOLN: I'd like to speak to the question.
At the time I began'research on
the movement in 1956, this was"'
several years ago and my estimate ;
of 100,000 members was made around '
1960 when the movement seemed to
have gained membership and seemed
-28.-
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CG 100-35635
LINCOLNi
KUP:
LINCOLN:
JQHH;. - . _
.1
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to have been at a pinnacle.
I have never offered this number
as a hard and fast number for
the membership.
Iould you make a guess about
its membership today? .
This was the number at which
I arrived at through my, through
my own calculations, my visits
to many, many temples, to
questionnaires that I sent out,
to_talking with other people
and so on. And this also was
not limited to what you might call
card-carrying Muslims. One thing
about the Muslim movement is that
there are many people who apparently
follow the teachings of ELIJAH -
MUHAMMAD who are not formally assoc-
iated with the movement. Now whether
the membership of the movement is
down to 7,000 now as Mr. BARNETTE
claims, or whether it is up to
200,000 now as Mr. MUHAMMAD claims,
I frankly don't know.
Iell, I'd like to make one point.
Ir. MUHAMMAD is not claiming any '
membership of any figure. I mean,
well, first of all you must under-
stand the nature of Mr. MUHAMMAD's
mission. I mean, his Job isdelivery of'a message to the A
so-called American Negro and the
principle of Islam is based an -
principles of practice or beliefs,
five principles. One is belief
- 29 - '
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GE 199-35635
._w,_ .Imi
in the law oi the apostles and '
the books they wrote, prayer,
charity, tasting, and pilgrimages
when they are financially and
physically able. And anyone,
it they are practicing no
principles, can be a Muslim or
may not be a Muslim. It is up
to the individual and if a person
is practicing a principle that is
what makes them a luslim. and
they can be practicing a principle
and not necessary for a person to
attend our mosque, too, in order-
to be a member. They can read
Hr. MUHAMMAD's lite in the paper.
Anywhere they get it. They can
get it from another person. And
that is up to the individual,
because we are not claiming membership
of any nature.JOHN:
KUP: Starting to speak! "
I was going to say this, Mr. KUP.
r. MUHAMMAD is teaching on
nationwide radio across the
country every Sunday. We have our
paper which is one of the, is the
widest circulated news medium
among the so-called American Negro
that is getting his message out.
And any one oi the people all
across the country hearing may at
ene time or may at anether time "" '
be practicing the religion of Islam.
And this is what makes a person_
a Muslim and not cards. We don't
carry any cards around or anything
of that nature.
- 30 -JOHN:
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CG 166-35635
AUBREY:K; {Q
O
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Ihat is the purpose of the letter
that is sent out, JOHN?
LINCOLN: lay I speak?
AUBREY: Each prospective person who attends
a temple meeting, he receives a
letter. And he fills it out and either
says he has attended two or three
meetings and he believes in the
teaching and then he signs his name
and he gets an answer back.
JOHN: Iell, that explains
Thst is the ssne ss
Ihat is the purposeAUBREY:
JOHN: It explains one whoitself.
his enrollment,
oi it?_
has attended thé'
meeting. But we have people who read
the "Muhammad Speaks" newspaper,
which is out every Friday. Iith
the newspaper we have people ' ~
listening to Hr; HUHAMMAD's broad-
casts which are, which we have on
one of the most powerful transmitters
in the country, on XERF which '
broadcasts not only in the United
States but all the way up -
AUBREY: But certainly you
JOHN:
Am@r#9#:and.Ptb¢!
AUBREY: But certainli youdon't have - ,
to the Dominion of Canada, South
P1%°P§-H ."._ H
. -
wouldn'thaVe i
s letter to, certainlYyou wouldn't
have a letter toclaim a person
,who has been to a
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CG 100-35635 I
JOHN: _
AUBREY:
LINCOLN:
LINCOLN: ¢ e
0- '" O
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This letter - 5
-5..
0ne minute. '
teaching or not. I mean; it is
obvious it you see him there at
the teaching, he's been there at
the meeting. Ihy give him a
letter?
Hr. IUHAHMAD, I mean, Ir. HUHAMHAD
and his ministers. They study.
After a person hears, they don't
hau +hn_= Likn wnn. vnnrn IT U0-l92I"_ I lllil J11! Jr" 4-w
not.responsib1e for yourself anymore
A11 his Job is the clear deliverance
of his message to our people and
not necessary for them to attend .
our meetings or attend in mosques
or attend meetings of that nature
in order to follow. They're told
to either accept it or reject.
I want to return, it I may, to the
question of membership. Because 1
I think that it is important inso-
far as Hr. BARNETTE has found one""
figure and I have suggested another.
I interviewed Hr. MUHAMMAD less
than three hours ago'and he said -
to me at that time that his member-
ship was certainly in excess of
200,000. He did not nail down
the figure.
What did he base that on, Dr.
LINCOLN?
his basis for it but he said
that He also said as far as _
people who were following him whoOffieh11y,'I did not ask'him '
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JOHN:
LINCOLN:
JOHK:if : .- _ 4,
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100-35635 f
were not, I hope you don't find
the word offensive, by card-
1 carrying Muslims -
I was going - -
I don't intend to take offense.
?I__ ___J. _-¢__I__.._J.____lJ__ __-..-
1! not understanding yuu,
DOC I101 - - .-
LINCOLN: All right then. Well, he said_.
KU
GORDON:
JOHN:
LINCOLN:
KUthat insofar as followers were
concerned he perhaps had well
over a million. He said perhaps
and he didn't know. He did not
attempt to be definite at that
yuan I, a
P: Did he explain why the attendance
at the Coliseum is so small then,
if he has such a large membership?
--and much less attendance today.
Iell, I'll say this -
May I continue my statement;'
please? He also said further _
that in the last year, this is'
a statement since the defection
of MALCOLM X, it is his claim "
that the membership has doubled}
There is one other point I would
like to make for clarification
about attemntinz to take sides ""'*' _ 1|!
h°"°.' . . ..
P: Iel1,_1et me ask you bef0fé"'
you leave that field, do you,: _ '~.;- 1-... ' - *-7 __- -- _ ~* ,_~'_ _ .._
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KUP:
LINCOLN:
KUP:
LINCOLN
KUP:
LINCOLN:{f' f" . ..
0 --O
ii-
as a sociologist, do you accent Q
this as face value or do you have -
some system of checking this
figure? g
I have no way, no accurate way
of course of checking the membership
of Islam. I don't believe anybody
has. For an organization of this
type, it is impossible, so far as
I know even for anyone who is a
member of the organization to say
with accuracy what the membership
is.
And you're saying his figure
may be as wrong as the 2 million
or the 1 million or the 100 '
thousand. Anyone may be erong.
I figure, I would say ibis. That
Mr. BARNETTE arrives at his figure
and certainly through a method that'
he believes to be accurate and true.
And I try to do the same thing.
But of all the people who have
been studying the Muslims and there
have been neny. I do not know
any 2 people who agree on number.
I don't think that they can.
Un huh. '
Let's take ALEX HALE? pb.},
LOUIE LOMAX, and since I" f
have been studying the Muslims
I have received hundreds of"" A
letters from graduate"students .
a11'over the country and front
police officials who have'been
studying officials who have been
_ 34 -
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LINCOLN:
KUP:
Lrubonn:C 4 " -
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5%
a
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studying the movement and I E
have never seen two figures
that were identical. Also,
I will be frank with you. '
I simply don't know.
Yes, that's understandable.
II-II- =15y
One, one other thing. Just'
as a matter of academics.
The question of the word,
the use of the word university.
I may be able to clear up some-
thing along this line.- Back
in the l860's and 70's, when
most Hegro celleges eere
established in this country,
they almost invariably called
themselves universities. I
think that this was probably
to show their aspiration to
become universities and probably
to elevate at least within-their
own minds what they themselves
sere doing. lo give you a
concrete example. I teach at'
Clark College in Atlanta, which
was established in 1869-as
Clark University, when it was
really Just a normal scheol at
that time. They didn't drop
the name university until l940.
I can give you another example.
Glatlin Qellege in south - ~
Carolina, which is a school
much smaller than mine, calls
itself Clatlin University.'
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CG 100-35635
LINCOLN:
£99:
JOHN: l
KUP:
JOB:
KUP:_ »>-oi»
this is perhspe how the use of 1""-
the name came to be.
!hile ee're talking about
membership, let me.get to another
point which I think is very
serious. JOHN, I'd like to get
your opinion. Because I think
AUBREY touched on a very important
thing here. He says in the
Saturday Evening Post article
that he came to realize that the
one thing the !usli!s osnnot live
with is success. The Iuslims
want no part of successiul
people. For this reason Iuslims do
not court prominent Hegroes.
CASSIU8 CLAY is one exception, of
course. But one thing that has
amazed many people is the lack oi
any Negro intellectual, any Negro
oi nny prominence to support this
movement. " .
By explaining intellectual -
Can you explain that?
I mean, intellectual means
dealing with a person who has
_knoyledge. It can mean someone
who is, when you say intellectual
what do you mean, intellectual?
Do you mean someone having
degrees, going to college and
who have a string of degrees?
4. Let's not get into a battle oi
-. semantics. D
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CG 100~35635
J°N= O I want to know what you lean -L
when you say university. U
KUP= 1 didn't say that. I _said
intellectual.
JOHN: Because we have, because we
already had difference of words
here on university.
There are many Negro intellectuals.
Dr. LINCOLN is recognized as one.
' RALPH BUNCHB, -KUP: '
JOHN: 'Ie1l, I'll tell youi
KUP: There are thousands of Negro -
JOHN: Nell, 1'11 tell you. A11 the
Muslims who follow Mr. MUHAMMAD
we call them intellectuals.
_. -1- - ..__ ;_I.___!.__ __L J..l._.__..92_II. KUP: I611, YOU KHOI tney lie not, tnuug .
To classify the American Negro, -
JOHN: I mean, according to whose standards
- are you going by? By your standards?
' The white man's standards? Or are
you going by -
KUP: No. I'm going by the accepted
standards. _
JOHN: Are you going by the standsrds of the
world? Or what people have -
KUP: I'm going by accepted standards, '-
JOHN. _Apparently - 1__ _M
JOHN: ,_- Are you going by the aeceptéa **""'
- astandards Where people are concerned
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CG 100-35635
JOHN:
KUP:
JOHN:
KUP:
JOHN:
KUP:=
JOHN:
KUP:
JOHN:. l ~
about the knowledge of themselves? §
I'd say that we're all intellectual!
Because it takes a very intelligent?
nan to recognize when he has been
lost and cut of! from his own
people and realize he must now do
something for himself. And Ir.
MUHAMMAD -
Name one intellectual, the status
of Dr. LINCOLN -
1'11 name one -
ir. RALPF Bii, or anybody else.
I'll name one greater, Hr. IUHAMAD,
because he himself, the very fact
that he had this discussion on your
show shows he was intellectual.
If he wasn't, you would not be Y
discussing him. Here's a man who -
F0, we discuss people of all walks -
I mean it he were - _
of life. That's no category.
I mean, by the very fact that he is
intellectual is the fact of your
conversation here. Because why "
would you be concerned about a'nan
who went less than a normal grade
school education and you hael l" '
doctors here, you have doctors here,
you have Congressmen here and "
you have college graduates. Ihy'
areyou college graduates concerned
about this little man who is aa"
uneducated man, according to your
standards?
- 33 _
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92KUP:
JOHN:
KUP:
JOHNS
KUP:
Joan:
KUP:
JOHN:....
Iell, do you mean that it we're .
discussing the Klu Klux Klan, -
Iait a minute -
on the same level that you would
say these were intellectuals,
because we're discussing them?
NO, _ 92
Is that your argument?
No, I'm saying this. It is even more
to his credit that he can take people
who were formerly dropouts out 01*
school - inspire them to do things
for themselves.
Hell, let me go back to the original
question, JOHN. _
It we felt like going to school,
we have, we don't make claims. We're
not braggarts or going around bragging
and saying who we have in our midst.
Because in Islam we accept everyone; '
whether they be uneducated or educated,
whether they be professional or " "
unprofessional. I mean, we have many
in our group. I don't mean we don't
go around telling_you that this man
does good. Like they'do in the _"'"
American society where they have these
status symbols and things and we, _
who belong to a certain category" "
that you had $10,000 and you have a -
ranch home and all these'dif£er¬nt"'
things. Because we're not concefned'
with those status symbolsr Or you
go to Brown University, -
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; KUP: Iell, you made your point; will you 1
hold 11;?
;JOHN: Because I've gone to school myself.
Ie have a -
Let me turn to a sociologist. Let
me turn to a sociologist. One
second, JOHN. This will be an
interesting point for a sociologist.
Can you explain, Dr. LINCOLN, whyu KUP:
on my terms, no Negro intellectual or no
Negro of any stature has accepted or
supported ELIJAH MUHAMMAD, the _
Honorable ELIJAH MUHAMMAD?
LINCOLN; Iell, essentially this is a mass
movement. And_as a mass movement,
it will have an appeal to a
certain class oi people which will
not normally -_
¢KUP: Ihat kind or people would you say _
are included in-this class? _ =
LINCOLN: I would say that it would appeal _
primarily to the people who are
the most disprivileged, the "
people who are the farthest down
and the people who have not been,
for reasons or various kinds or '
profession, to make their way
successfully in today's world
in which they live. And these H is
are likely, though not exclusively,
they are likely to he the people
that include ieweroi'what_we'""
would call intellectuals'and other
groups, However, there are some L e
eepeople in the Black Muslim movement
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CG 100-35Q35.
LINCOLN: who are well-educated and I can
= think of at least one who night jg '
be called an intellectual. This
is LONNIE CROSS, who has I doctorate
in mathematics iron the University'
oi Michigan, I believe, and who
was chairman of the department of
mathematics or at least taught
mathematics at Atlanta University.
I believe he is at your iashington _
Center. _
JOHN: In tact, we have many intellectuals.
' Dr. CROSS is one oi your associates.
But we have-many more who go to
college and schools -
LINCOLN: This I don't doubt but I Just
want to point -
Is graduate then ourselves. Ie _+
have some going to Harvard. Ie
have some going to Brown.a Is
have some going to Loyola, right _
here, the University of Chicago.
We have some going to, going all
over to schoo1s.. HJOHN:
1 - _ ~92 .
starting to speak! ; In the whole
time I was in your organization, 7AUBREY:
Let me finish 7%; 'JOHNt
xurk Go ahead, Joan. __ gv __;_ :
JOHN: I want.to talk}? Let me finish.
Que nore thing you understand. '
too, is what you m1gnt*¢aI1'tae.
inte1lectua1"classesgoing on. __'
-nnyane"who made 5 Bfudy oi"
~"revo1uticn or chahge always
41 -
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JOHN: '
KUF2
COMMERCIAL_-pi-Li;--||-ii
KUP§
VOICE:
Iww .- >¢|&-
tinds that the intellectual class
are generally the privileged class '
going with the present society.
And Ir. MUHAMMAD is teaching a
religious movement which is dedicated
to change in the last day. Ihere
a divine God with the, or the God
will be behind them. And you have
a similar parallel, a precedent in
the history of Hoses. Because Hoses
too, history is compared to Ir.
MUHAMMAD. They were both uneducated
people and they had what you call __
the uneducated with them. I mean
the people that were following Moses
were uneducated and the intellects
opposed him like they oppose r.
MUHAMMAD. And they objected to him
because they went along with the
Pharoah. Because the benetits and
the stature they received were granted
by the Pharoah. And this is the only
way they could maintain these things by
continuing to go along with Pharoah.
Your history-is a 11 - wrong,
JOHN, but we have to, pardon me; JOHN;
we have to interrupt for a message.
We'll be right back. _
A short time ago, gentlemen and audience
we had the late MAIJCOLII X on the show
and we'd like to shes you a clip ire: '
our previous broadcast or January 30th,
a £ewieeks'befdre he was assassinated;
to show you what he said on this show,
after which we'll come back to hear
from CASSlUS_CLhYy_ u V - 1 -
MUéiHMAD is a faker and -
- 42 -
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CG 100-35635
3
IALCOLIl-o .
' -_..1 :5 " I! ;
It ELIJAH IUHAIIAD really believed is
the sane god that I believed in; I * -
believed in ELIJAH IUHAHHAD stronger
than he believed in hinseli. I
believed in his God more than he did
and I was not aware of this until I
round that he was confronted with a
crisis in his own personal moral life
and he did not stand up as a nan!
Anybody can make a moral mistake but
when they have to lie about it and
will be willing to seethat murder
is committed to cover up their mistake
not only are they not divine, they're
not even a man, If a man sits as a
Judge and a woman is brought in front
oi him and charged with adultery and
the Judge himself is the one with when
she committed adultery but the Judge
stands up and berates the woman,
letting no, in order to make no one
even suspect that he is the real i
criminal who was involved with the
woman and humiliates her and then
sends her into isolation, completely
destroys her reputation, with no '
kind of protection for her, or her
whatsoever. And she takes it, she
loves him so much and believes so '
strongly in his sense of justice
so much she allows herself to be
projected almost as'a prostitute" '
and that man permits this, then that
is not a man. To have gotten weak
for a woman is one thing; It is " i
human. and it is natural; BhtaftefH'
getting weak and comp1ete1y'aestroy1ng"-
her reputation,'to do nothing whatsoever
to protect her as a woman, then he ii"
not a man. And to commit murder and to
see tolbwers line up to kill each other
and to mutilate each other, then this is
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CG 100-35635
VOICES-
HALCOLI:
KUP: '
._._.-._._.r.,.-p:Tr.._.___, __,__ __O "O
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Doesn't ELIJAH IUHAIIAD preach I"¢
nonviolence and the non-use of -
guns and weapons and so forth?
Ihen I was in the Black Muslin
movement we never carried weapons.
Ie were taught against that. And
we were never taught that. Ie
never actually fought at any tine.
Ie were_told that God was going to
cone, you know, and do all these
things. Ihen the Iuslin brothers
were beaten in Louisiana, we weren'
allowed to tight back. Nothing was
done to equalize the situation.
ELIJAH told us that God would come
and do it. But to show you that
there is lack oi consistency. How
he orders his followers to go out
and attack each other, to mutilate
each other. II the ability, the
talent, the skill, the know-how,
the Black Muslim brothers have
been trained into were used against
organizations like the Klu Klux '
Klan or the Ihite Citizens Council
or the racist elements in this '
country, then I could somewhat go
along with the present trend oi
their fighting each other, too-
But when all of their'physical"'
energy is expended fighting only,
fighting each other then I say
something is-wrong.
Are you trying to tell us that
there's heen an attack on yduf
life because oI'your withdrawal
or dismissal from the Muslin.
organization? ~
7 '
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