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£Jaintiffs' First Request For Production
and Inspection of Documents
Responsive Documents from
San Antonio file 89B-SA-38851
5'92: 5
excised copyis an
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QELEIION CODES
Information which is properly classified pursuant.to.
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conduct of the Government's international relations.
Information, the disclosure of which would tend to reveal theidentity of an informant. ~
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understanding that the information received will be treated
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Rule 6 e! of the federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
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implied.
Administrative file numbers.
The Law Enforcement Privilege The disclosure of this
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the effectiveness of an investigative method or technique.
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recommendations, and advice generated in the decisionmaking
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Other, as specified.
Information, the disclosure of which would be an unwarrantedinvasion of the personal privacy of an individual not party
to the litigation.
.-. 4:,__U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #141
3/20/93
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Tape 141!
KORESH: - but in Christ they're on1y'
commercial, right?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
KORESH: The -- walks a lonely mile in I
Reeboks, you know? Instead of sandals on his feet.
JOHN: Hey, you know I missed talking to
Steven tonight.
KORESH: Yeah, well, they -- like they say,
you all like talking to them better than me.
_. JOHN:N,Not me.
KORESH: Because I always tell him. I say,
Steve, don't talk religion with them.
JOHN: Not me. I don't get, I don't get to
go through any of these study periods with Steven.
KORBSH:' Well, I told him not --
JOHN: We, we nipped those in the bud.
KORESH: I said let me be, let me be the guy
you hate.
JOHN: Hey, like I said, didn't want to
listen to it, it'd be over. And Sherry's not around
either?
KORESH TO RACHEL: Where is Sherry, Rach?
JOHN: You probably woke, wake Rachel up.
KORESH= No, she's - Rachel, Rachel's here
in the room with me. She's, she knows I got to be, you
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know, accessible
JOHN:
about.
' KORESH
JOHN:
KORESH:
me. She thought
JOHN:
KORESH
how kids are and
JOHN:l
for --
She got to get you up and moving
1
She's a good girl, you know?
I'm sure she is.
She hated my guts when she first me
I was too religious.
I find that hard to believe.
Oh, it's true, you know. You know
religion.
What am I going to do? Say goodnight, w...
to you without getting to talk to anybody else?
KORESH: Well, you want to talk to Rach or
what? '
JOHN: Huh?
KORESH=. You know, Rachel asked you for some
milk and you said no, so you -- you know, she knows
you've got your tail tucked there and, you know.
JOHN: Sure.
KORESH: The -- Bobby, Bobby has been
drinking a lot of it there supposedly.
KORESH TO RACHEL: How much is left, Rach?
Three-quarters of a gallon?
JOHN: Quart?
KORESH: There's three-quarters of a gallon
left.3
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and the children and all that, you know, then they're,
they're not, they're not victims involved. I says
let's, let's not, you know -- I said if we need
something, you know, take it out of that. If you need
more money, I'll
you know? So he
JOHN:send more money, more money to you,
said no problem.
Yeah.
KORESH: Of course, you know, people say a
lot of things sometimes, but --
JOHN:
through there or
know, any of the
KORESH
JOHN:
tonight.
KORESH
JOHN:
KORESH
one that's going
unrighteous.
JOHN:
tonight.
KORESH
Psalms 18, where
rise.
JOHN:Well, listen. If Steven trips on
Sherry trips on through, or Scott, you
other ones --
TO RACHEL: Hey, Rach.
Tell them I'm on the end of the horn
TO RACHEL: Knock, knock --
Not that horn either.
No, I, I understand. Not, not the
to be chopped off if you're
Maybe you better not put Sherry on
That's just been the continuation of
it says I wound them and unable to
I don't want to, I don't want to get
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KORESH: Well, you're not a sinner, right?
Is that what you're saying? u " "
JOHN: I didn't say that.
' XORBSH: Hey, did I ever say I wasn't a
sinner? I
JOHN: No. Are you going to tell me that?
KORESH: I will simply say --
JOHN: In the eyes of whom?
KORESH: In - well, in the sight -- in the
eyes of God, like I say, we have to redefine what in
the New Covenant_and;§estament is a sin, you know.
This obedience to the -- and the law is a sin, yeah,
but, but there's also something called the commandment
being extremely broad. I mean, you know, in Psalms 118
it says --
JOHN: Oh, it's just like some people accept
the Ten Commandments as they are and others may accept,
well, I'll accept number one and I'll accept number
two, but I don't want to accept all the others. You
know, it's their interpretation and --
KORESH: Well, you know, that's, that's what,
that's what Catholicism did and they tell you point
blank, you know?
JOHN: Um-hum.
KORESH: But, you know, like I say, I -- you
know, most Catholics understand to a large degree that
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they are not obligated to accept everything that
Catechism teaches them.
JOHN: That's true.
KORESH: They accept that. _
JOHN: But they must accept the Ten
Commandments.
4 KORESH: It's what -- they accept the
Commandments and they accept what they perceive to be
right.
JOHN: Um-hum.
~ KORESH:- I mean, there's a lot of nuns and
stuff who had a lot of babies, you know, during the
Dark Ages, you know. But they, but they, they --
JOHN= whatever you say. I mean, I don't
know. But I'm sure, you know --
KORESH:' well, don't --
JOHN: -- you, you wouldn't lie to me, would
you?
KORESH: You don't know that.
JOHN: Well --
KORESH: You know, I mean I could be the
Devil himself, you know what I mean?
JOHN: That's true.
KOREsH= Instead of being the Lamb, I could
be the Devil here getting read -- getting ready to put
people in Hell.
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25JOHN:
KORESH
JOHN:
that, too.
KORESH
way.
JOHN:
KORESH:
trying to reveal
JOHN:
- KORESH
JOHN:
KORESH
know? Here I am9
That's true.
Seven seals. A
Probably some people have thought
Oh, yeah. More so than the other
You find that hard to believe, huh?
Here I am trying to reveal Christ,
the Seven Seals --
Uh-huh.
-1 and they call me Antichrist.
Uh-huh.
-- what's the matter with you, you
trying to show you the Seals. Then
why are you playing rock and roll music. I don't play
rock and roll music. I play my music. I don't call my
music rock and roll music. I play music and it's
compatible to today's reality of humanity.
Everything's fast, everything is let's go, everything
is, you know, the world doesn't even know how to slow
down right now and take a breath. Young kids --
JOHN:Oh, yeah, it does. It probably
depends what part of the world you're in.
KORBSH: Hey, I'm 33 years old and I got --
JOHN:You go from New York City or Los
Angeles or San Francisco and it's flying and zipping
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around and then you get into some other areas, some
other cultures. It's very slow, very slow.
KORESH: Yeah, but I'm saying when it comes
to -- A
JOHN: Waco. "That's slow.
KORESH: Well, not really.
JOHN: Oh, yes, it is.
KORESH: Look. When you, when you, when you
go, when you're making two bucks and two fifty and
three fifty an hour and you're a kid in Waco, it goes
fast. So you go out-for fast fun, you know? There's
things about the world, there's things about people.
You know Waco has one of the lowest economies in the
nation. You're familiar with that, aren't you? You've
heard that, right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
KORESH: It's also one of the biggest drug
places, believe it or not.
JOHN: I know. That's what somebody told me.
I found that hard to believe.
KORESH: Yeah. Methamphetamine. Everywhere.
You know, so I go and I, I go into these towns and
stuff, you know, and I, I meet people right and left
and I try to share the seals with them and all that,92
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cool, you know? But they're, they're a device.
They've got, they've got that dummy they got to hold
onto. They got that perspective sensation of, of well-
being that's false.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, a lot of, lot of people
experiment I guess. You know, you and I may have
experimented in our, in our days and, and, and then
realized what we were doing --
KORESH: You probably think I burned my mind
out on something, huh?
-I JOHN:.»No,iuh-uh.
KORESH: No, I mean -- let me tell you. I
used to be very, very athletic, you know. I started
working out at 11 years old. You know, very -
aerobically. By the time I was --
JOHN: ¥- to run track.
XORESH: Yeah, by the time I was 13 and 14 I
was, you know, I was a superkid, you know? But the
thing of it was is that you -- I found, I found such a
complete well sense of being in physical activity that,
you know, when the stages came of life to try to, to go
into those things, it's just, it's just -- it's
nothing. It's not worth it. And I find that's one of
the problems with a lot of young people today is that
they don't know the potentials of their own natural
resources, you know. They don't, they don't learn how
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to work when they're young. They don't learn how to
get out and do physical work. They don't know, they
don't know the good things a body can produce, you
know, naturally. So they like to be confined and
restricted. <
JOHN: You didn't, you didn't send Rachel out
looking for any of those other people, did you?
KORESH TO RACHEL: Rach --
JOHN: Don't worry about doing it.
KORESH: Sherry's right here by the door now.
_ 92 JOHN:wiOh,_}s she?
KORESH TO RACHEL: Can you get Sherry?
JOHN: Hey. Before you sign off with me --
KORESH: Yeah. 1
JOHN: -§ and she gets Sherry, do you have
any idea after Rita, if you have some other --
KORESH: Well, this is something we're going
to resolve tomorrow.
JOHN: Okay.
KORESH: Like I said, you know --
JOHN: Well, you indicated that you had some
other problems.
KORESH: There's a, there's a judicial system
here too, you know? There's a --
JOHN: Okay.
KORESH: -- you know, people, like you say,
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they have to, they have to look at - man, I wish I
could give you some real Bible studies. " '
JOHN: Well, I'm looking for - I bet you do.
I bet you do.
KORESH: -- some really open the book, let's
take a look, let's compare, let's analyze, you know --
JOHN: Well, maybe you'll get a chance
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KORESH: This is serious. Right across the
table. If I, if I start telling you, yeah, this person
and this person and all of a sudden you're going to get
on the command, you're going to say there's going to be
three, four people coming out Saturday night and all of
a sudden the Commission go all right. And all of a
sudden that's not what we said.
JOHN: Okay.
KORESH: They get a miscommunication all the
next day --
JOHN; _Well, I'm not going to miscommunicate
anything.
XORESH: -- next thing the tank is right up
here in our door and guys are saying, I'm going to
blast them and we're saying, no, don't -- you don't do
that. You got to get your mind back in your head, you
know. You're, you're, you're messing up worse again,
you know.
JOHN: Um-hum.
KORESH: These people are -- they don't know
where you're coming from so we have to take --
JOHN: Well, you know.
KORESH: You don't know.
JOHN: You know where I'm coming from.
KORESH: Yeah. Well, I'm saying but you
don't know where I'm coming from.
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JOHN: And I'm not telling anybody anything
other than what you tell me. And if you tell me
others, that's fine. That's others. Right?
' KORESH: That'll work. That'll keep the --
JOHN: And, and that's the way it is.
KORESH: That'll keep enough slack in the
rope so no one gets their neck busted.
JOHN: You got it. And, and do me, do me
another favor. If anybody is going to be going out of
there, which I -- Steve's been pretty good about it.
Hejs called if_somebody wanted to go out and feed
chickens or somebody wanted to go out and do something,
but please be sure that he does call and, and lets,
lets me know if some -- or whoever's on the end of the
phone, if somebody intends to come out of there before
they go bouncing around out there.
KORESH: Yeah. Well, that -- you know --
JOHN: Because I, I don't want any
difficulties no more that you do.
KORESH: Right. See, what happened was is
that when that started raining, they just stepped out
in the little court section --
JOHN: Oh, I know, I know.
KORESH: -- part of the building there.
JOHN: Hey, I don't have a problem with that
and the people that are on the end of this phone don't
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have a problem with that, but you have some people up
there that have a problem with it, so -- " '
KORESH: Don't you know.
JOHN: -- one phone call could have
alleviated it all. You know what I mean?
KORESH: Yeah, well, it -- you know, I think
-- what happened?
KORESH TO RACHEL: We -- did we call or did
they call us, Rach?
JOHN: Well, probably somebody called from
here to there in.a panic.
KORESH: In a panic.
JOHN: Well, wait, wait --
JOHN: The guy's got a
a bucket. He's catching water.
JOHN: What can I tell
KORESH: He's going to
to pour it on us, we're going to
JOHN: Some things are
people than others.bucket, the guy's got
you.
melt us. He's going
melt.
more important to some
KORESH: Yeah. Well, I understand it. Like
I say, they -- just like when Steve was talking up
there with the, with the other John.
JOHN: Yeah.
KORESH: -- you know.
JOHN: Yeah.
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KORESH: And Steve, Steve smiled to the two
guys there that had the, the guns, and the -- finally
one guy finally smiled because Steve says, well, we're
-Q we know that you're going to be here protecting us,
you know, through the night. But the other guy kept
his frown all the way through and I says, well, that's
that Jim. He's got to look that Marine tough, you
know.
JOHN: Yeah.
KORESH: He just -- he doesn't understand.
._ JOHN:_.Hey,,fellow just takes his job
seriously, huh?
KORESH: Yeah.
JOHN: we all do and you do. You know, it's
just some of us can try and communicate in different
methods. Listen, if you can't, if you can't kick Steve
around someplace to get him to the phone and Sherry's
around, I'll, I'll pass on the message that her mother
had for her if you want me to.
xonssx-1: Okay.
KORESH TO RACHEL: Rachel, can you see, can
you see --
JOHN: She's not there anymore?
KORESH TO RACHEL: Rachel, please look out
the door and just -- and, and ask her because it's a
message from her mom.
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JOHN: Hey, if she's asleep or something we
can talk to her tomorrow. ' N _
KORESH TO RACHEL: All right. Just - is she
asleep.
JOHN: I hate to see Steve going to bed so
early though.
KORESH TO RACHEL: Where is Steve, Rach?
JOHN: I'm just pulling your leg.
KORESH FOR RACHEL: How about for Scott?
Scott's not asleep. Now, go get Scott.
KORESH: Scott will be here. You got a
. _ _ ._ _~__.
message for him, right?
JOHN: Yep. Just got to find the right one.
You sure he's up? -
KORESH: iYeah.
JOHN: Okay.
KORESH: He's just stepping down the hallway
there to -- I tell you this -- these, these things and
they weep. Just like - it's just like they just --
still this fluid, you know, leaking down you.
JOHN: Hey --
KORESH: Supposed to be a good sign.
JOHN: I hope it is. I hope it is.
KORESH: Makes you wonder about beef jerky,
you know, when you eat beef jerky? And you look at,
you look at yourself when you got a big old scab on
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you. It looks just like beef jerky.
JOHN: Make you stop eating beef jerky,
wouldn't it?
KORESH= Makes you wonder about it.
JOHN: Well, every -- everybody hit the hay?
KORESH: No, she -- he'll be back in a
second.
JOHN: Okay. I don't want somebody stumbling
around in there and getting hurt.
KORESH: NO.
JOHN: How are the little ones doing? Okay?
KORESH: Oh, yeah.
JOHN: Good. Hey, we'll talk to somebody
about that other, that other matter. See if there's
something we can do. Can't make you any promises, but
all I can say is we can make a pitch.
KORESH: The mommas -- you know, the mommas
they - you know, you know how it is when, you know,
with, with natural stuff, you know, when they get under
stress and all that they lose their milk.
JOHN: Yep.
KORESH TO RACHEL: You don't know where he's
at?
KORESH: I'll have, I'll have him call you.
JOHN: Don't worry about it. Don't worry
about it. I mean I'll be here, but --
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KORESH: What are you going to do? Sit
around and drink coffee or what? 1
JOHN: I can tell you -- oh, I'm going to do
or what first.
KORESH: What's or what? Okay, I got it.
Okay. Go ahead and do -- go do your or what and --
JOHN: Hey, if you find him fine but, you
know, have him, have him wait about 15 minutes anyhow.
Okay?
KORESH: Okey doke.
- JOHN: ~We'll talk to you tomorrow? You're,
you're going to get a good night's sleep?
KORESH: Yeah. Well, like I say it's -- this
is the time that, you know, I, I try to work things out
for everybody.
JOHN: Hey. It's your Sabbath. Work hard at
it.
KORESH: Shabbat.
JOHN: Work hard at it.
1 KORESH: You know what the original Sabbath
was all about, don't you?
1 JOHN: The what?
KORESH: The original Sabbath was all about?
JOHN: It was a day of prayer.
KORESH: No. It was a day of making love.
JOHN: Oh, really?
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KORESH: Shabbat.
JOHN: You mean I'm cutting into your time?
KORESH: Abba -- no, no.
JOHN: Okay. _
t KORESH: I'm a wounded man.
JOHN: Gee, I'm sorry to hear about that.
KORESH: It's all right. It's not -- it's --
like I say, if you really knew me as a person, I'm not
half as wild as they make me out to be, but the thing
of it is is the day is the glory of God. That's why
itis a memorial-of God. It's the day that God
completed his work and it was all done for -- mankind,
that they might be one, male and female. God's image.
And that's why when the, when the Papacy changes
Sabbath it makes God mad. You know, it makes Him mad.
But that's what they do.
JOHN: Yeah.
KORESH: What can you do? You have to deal
with it when the books are open, won't you?
JOHN: Sure.
KORESH: Okey doke. John, Shabbat Shalom and
we'll -- either Scott will talk to you tonight or we'll
-- he'll get you in the morning, okay?
JOHN: Okay. _
KORESH: Okey doke.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
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KORESH: Bye-bye.
Connection broken.!
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Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing - 4 rings.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: This could be a
good sign. Major meeting -- they're going to have to
day.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello.
JOHN: Good morning.
*~ STEVE"SCHNEIDER: Good morning.
JOHN: How are you doing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not too bad.
JOHN: Great. Sleep okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. How, how about
yourself.
JOHN: Great, great, great.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So now where are we at this
morning?
JOHN: Well, I want to tell you what I did
last night.
92
. srzvs SCHNEIDER: Okay .
JOHN: I went down to see Kevin.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Great.
JOHN: He's a very polite gentleman. Very,
very polite fellow. And we had a little bit of a chat
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and then the other fellows spoke to him for a while. I
went into see Brad. We got them drinks of Dr. Pepper
and Coca Cola, whatever they wanted, although basically
I think Kevin was more interested in Dr. Pepper and
Brad was more interested in water. But we got them, we
got them whatever they wanted, you know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Absolutely. Right.
JOHN: So you get your choice, choice of
refreshments. I do have a little bit of bad news in
the sense of Kevin's condition. Kevin was taken to the
hospital. <He's got bad varicose veins and possibly
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Really?
JOHN: Yes. So he's in the, in the hospitalblood poisoning. So --
w today as e speak.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
Kevin's in the hospital right now -- bad varicose veins
and blood poisoning.
JOHN: Okay. Now, he looked -- yeah, yeah.
So we were, you know, the Sheriff's Department was very
concerned about him and they, they got him to the
hospital right away after they spoke to him --
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: -- or, or within, you know, within a
short time thereafter. So he's in the hospital being
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treated, but it is, it is a very good thing that, that
he came out and got down to the hospital for treatment,
because they said it was -- so -- A
' srsvs SCHNEIDER: Right. Well, what do you
make of that? I mean the blood poisoning?
JOHN: I'm not really sure about the blood
poisoning. N
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He never mentioned
anything -- H
JOHN: No, not 100 percent, but they said the
varicose veins were very, very, very bad.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I thought they were bad,
for sure.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah. '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He had complained about
that for --
JOHN: I'll double check exactly on the
condition from, from the Sheriff's Department --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: -- through the hospital and we'll find
out. I'm not 100 percent sure on the blood poisoning,
but definitely they felt that the condition was severe
enough to bring him to the hospital so they did that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: But, but I spoke to him and, and I
mean he looked fine. You know, in the sense of his
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face as far as like he didn't appear to be in pain.
But apparently when, I guess, the doctor looked at his
legs or whatever they said we got to get him into the
hospitall So that's where he is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've never had - I think I
had seen his legs once and I'd never seen anything so
bad in my life.
JOHN: Exactly. So that's the way the
physician felt too. And they just said, hey, let's get
him to the hospital, make sure that he's treated well
and that's what theyire doing today.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see.
JOHN:
very, very good thing that he, he came out.So, I'm, I'm -- it's really kind of a
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: How's David doing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's doing okay.
JOHN: Good. Is he up and about?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, he's -- not since that
one day that he came down and spoke with Byron.
JOHN: Um-hum. So he's, he's still taking it
kind of easy as far as moving around.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. I, I believe he
started bleeding that -- when he had done that. You
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know, he had ~ he's been in bed for a long time, but I
think he wanted to see what kind of strength he might
have, but right away the bleeding started again.
JOHN: When, when was that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That was e- I think it was
about maybe Wednesday? I think it was Wednesday.
JOHN: From the exit wound, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
JOHN: Yeah. That takes a lot of strength,
you know. You just -- you lose blood and you don't
make it, make it as ast back as fast as you lose it,
you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Exactly.
JOHN: So, yeah -f how's everybody in there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So far pretty good.
JOHN: Good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: Good, good. Very good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And -- so, what - I
wasn't, you know, really clear as to the details of
what was going to happen today. David was going to
open up Micah to the guys or -- and I, I -- at what
time, I wasn't certain?
JOHN: Okay. Well, did -- does -- you have
any idea or anything as far as talking to him yet --
last night?
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just a minute. Let, let me
try to find out. Hang on.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I, I was just kind
of mentioning something to David and he says let's wait
and see what the development is.
JOHN: How do you mean now?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I think what he means
later in the day, maybe?
JOHN: Oh, sure. Sure.
»STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: That's fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Meaning -- yeah, I think
he's pretty worn out.
JOHN: Okay. Would you do me a favor and --
srsvz-: SCHNEIDER: Sure.
JOHN: -- just pass a message to him, even
though he's not feeling well. I went into, I went into
see the boss this morning.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: _And things are going so well I felt
that well, hey, I wanted to do something on my own, you
know, without being asked.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: And I, I just went in and I said look,
I said today is the Sabbath and I want to ask a favor
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and he said, what's that. And then I told him what I
want and he said, okay. He said, look, you, you -- he
said, you guys have something going, he said, I
appreciate that, and he said -- my request for him, to
be quite candid with you, was that there would be no
loudspeakers whatsoever on the Sabbath.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That would be great.
JOHN: And he said that he agreed to that.
So if you'll pass that along to David --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
. JOHN: ~-- that I got that done this morning.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So David will probably want
to communicate, you know, in a little while when he
regains some strength.
JOHN: Sure. That's fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: And we'll, we'll set that up. It's
pretty much ready to be done when he's feeling better.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. And that, that will
be, you know, in a while.
JOHN: Okay. Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So I'll stay in touch with
you then.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah. Great. How's
everything --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It sound, sounds good then.
Q-_
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JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sounds real good.
JOHN: Great.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll probably be giving you
a call in a little while just to touch base --
JOHN: All right. Yeah. would you hold on
one second?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure.
JOHN: Okay. One of, one of the guys in here
who's trying to set up the connection -- they do
basically whatfs called a phone patch.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: And as a matter of fact, the phone
That's probably about the phone patch right just rang.
now. You probably heard the bell.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay. Right.
JOHN: But that's -- we have an extra phone
in this room so we can do the phone patch with, with
Brad. So do you have any idea when he's going to be
available to, to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think it'll be a little
while yet, because I, I know he's not -- he seems --
JOHN: Not feeling too good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, exactly.
JOHN: Yeah. Maybe an hour or so? Somewhere
-- hour or two.
Q_
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Probably, probably a lot --
a little longer than that. . .
JOHN: Okay. Early --
' STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think that he never was
able to really sleep through the night or anything.
JOHN: Oh, sure. That's fine. And then --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: TWO hours --
JOHN: Yeah, that's absolutely fine. But
just understand it's going to take a little bit of lead
time.
_M STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll - sure.
That's not a problem.
JOHN: Okay, great. Good, good. Well, I'll
be talking to you later then.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll, I'll call you
in a while. 1
JOHN: Good. Thanks, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
Connection broken.!
Q Q i Q i
Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing -- 2 rings.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello.
JOHN: Hello. Is Steve or David there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes. Just a
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minute.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello.
JOHN: Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN: John. How you doing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'm kind of waiting
on David yet. I kind of --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I knocked at the door
there. Apparently he's still out.
_- JOHN: ~Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I wanted to get something
going here soon myself.
JOHN:Yeah, yeah. I wanted to get something
going too.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. How is, how is, how
is Kevin doing?
JOHN: Oh, I got that - in fact it's -- I
tell you, we must think along the same lines. I just
checked with the downtown and he's back. He's back and
it's -- he's been treated and he's out of the hospital
so it's a good sign. So it's not blood poisoning.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It wasn't, huh?
JOHN: No. No. They wouldn't have let him
go. But anyway --
s"r1-zvs scz~n~n-21111212: Right .
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JOHN: -- he's been treated and as far as I
know, he's feeling better, so that's very good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
i JOHN: Good. So that's basically what I
called --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've, I've got some
questions. In coming out, even like myself, you know.
I'm trying to get a lot of these people going first --
JOHN: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but what -- so you --
ultimately you go into a county jail, is that it?
JOHN: Yeah. Let me run it by you --
srzvn SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: -- basically how it works. You just
walk down the driveway like everybody else. Like Greg
does when he picks up the, you know, makes the pickups.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: And down at the end of the driveway we
have the Bradley vehicle that the kids were in that
bounced all around, you know --
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: -- that they were saying bouncing?
That's the toughest part of that ride is the bouncing
around. Then it goes down further to an area -- I
guess it's about a half a mile or three-quarters of a
mile in distance and then get out of the, the Bradley
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vehicle and into the van or like a four-wheel drive
vehicle. And they have vans and they have like a Jeep
Cherokee. Last night Kevin I think was in aired one.
' In any case, they rode down in a Jeep
Cherokee and then they went down to the Sheriff's
Department and the sheriff came out himself, and in
fact Kevin can tell you this, the sheriff personally,
Jack Harwell came out, introduced himself. And they
have like a little it's a nice size room with chairs
and tables and we, we got everybody Dr. Peppers and
whatever they wanted to drink and so on and they, they
talked to them for a while and it's basically that
simple.
And I was down personally to meet Kevin. We
had a little chat and that was basically how the whole
process went.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know, but then where did
they go? Did they go into a cell or something?
JOHN: Oh, they'll be in the, in the -- at
the -- that particular location is a -- it's a kind of
a cell. Yeah, it is a cell as a matter of fact. It
has -- the one that Kathy was in had TV, showers,
bathroom, and so on. It's at the Sheriff's facility
and it had - she had complete access to a telephone.
She could call --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But say, say all these
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people come out at one time. What, what happens
with ~- u " '
JOHN: Oh, okay, yeah. when the people come
out at all one time, the way we're going to work it is
we're going to have buses down there and they'll H
actually just board the buses and like, you know,
that'll be it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, but I mean what happens
to all the people then. I mean, when it comes to jail
cells, a room, all that kind of business.
.. JOHN: .Yeah.. They're basically -- that's a
municipal jail. It's not like a country jail. You
know what I mean? It's a new facility.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I -- yeah, I mean, I don't
know anything about it.
JOHN: Yeah. But I mean it's not like one of
the old time, old time places where you only see three
little rooms. It has a, it has a whole, you know,
whole area of, of cells where they've got televisions,
access to phones, and so on. As far as large groups,
the large groups will stay together and be processed
together at a hangar right where I'm standing, right
downstairs.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: So that everybody will be together.
And so they'll all --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: See, ultimately, I mean, it
would seem like to us like well, I don't know, I guess
-- so, one -- when one goes into a place like that,
then, when it comes to clothes, I, I guess they take
your clothes from you or something like that and issue
you something else?
JOHN: Yeah. Actually they're going to give
you like a -- I haven't seen the one that they use, but
it's like a jumpsuit thing, a clear suit down here is,
is what the fellows tell me. Clean and like a jumpsuit
thing as I understand, then they return your clothes to
you later, is my understanding.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: And when they clean --
srsvs SCENEIDER: What do you do --
JOHN: Oh, okay. He said -- I misread his
note. My, my -- losing my eyesight here. He didn't
write clear. It's clean. They clean the clothes and
the clothes they return to you are clean and laundered.
So, but you get those -- those eventually will be
returned to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What about now if one is
charged with something and you end up going to court or
whatever --
JOHN: Okay. Yeah, let me go through the
rest, let me go through the rest --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Do you bring a suit
along. There's -- I've got a lot of clothes here, so.
JOHN: Yeah. I think ~- that's a very good
idea. I want you to do that. I want you to bring a
suit and do you have a tie or shirt or ~-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure, sure.
JOHN: Yeah. Tuck the tie in one of the
pockets and - of the suit, a matching tie and a shirt,
and bring that along or you're welcome to wear it, but
I would bring it along. Do you have like a sack, one
oi these paper sacks or, or a -- yeah. And also you
can, if you don't want to, you know, you - the
attorneys can get that for you later. Either way you
want to do it, it's not a big problem. '
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: But, let me just run the rest of it.
Then what would happen is the following day you would
appear before a United States Magistrate and he, you
know, says, you know, who you are and so on and you say
yes, I'm that person.
swsvs SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: And then he tells you okay, you're,
you're held on whatever it is. In this case is I think
everybody was material witnesses and you would be held
on a material witness and then he would set the bond
and then --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: You say a bond. An amount
that your -- that might be against you or something?
JOHN: Okay. In other words, yeah. That's,
that's up to, that's up to him. In other words, when
you appear before him he'll, you know, say who you are
and you say yes, I'm --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, do you, do you find out
about any charges at that time or --
JOHN: Yes, yes. Oh, yes. Abs -- yes,
Steve, abso --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Do you have any more later?_ __ ,4 _~__:..
JOHN: No. Absolutely. He'll tell you
exactly what it is, which in this case will be material
witness. Okay. He'll say you're, you are a material
witness in this case and then your attorney will say,
Your Honor, this person has been very cooperative in
helping the agents of the FBI and, you know, I think
he's, he's contributed successfully to successful
resolution and he'll, he'll make kind of like a -- they
call it an argument, but it's actually like a
presentation.
And this man has a wife and a child and he's,
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39
bond, and then they are -- do -- have what they call
travel restrictions. So he might say, okay, you can
only go between Hawaii and Waco, Texas, in your case
maybe or Hawaii, Texas, and maybe California, depending
on where you want to go.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Probably wouldn't even much
matter to me.
JOHN: Well, yeah, but the attorney will
advise you and assist you, so --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, okay.
pp JOHN: _-- that's basically how it goes. It's
relative, you know, people look at the outside process
and think that it's extremely complex, but it's really
relatively simple and it goes very well. l
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: And, of course, he will -- of course
your counsel's going to be there and he's going to
afford you the counsel right away.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what about a counsel
-- like, say, an attorney. Now, I heard my sister
retained one. What if I'm not happy or I --
JOHN: That's what -- she -- oh, yeah, yeah.
She's hired one for you, okay? And he's already been
retained.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: And I think you got that letter in
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there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. ~ -
JOHN: Now, he's going to be down there for
what's called the initial appearance. Now, let's say
that for the sake of argument you don't like this guy.
Say that you and he don't hit it off or you don't like
him or you feel that you could do better. You know,
any one of a million reasons now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right, okay.
JOHN: And I, I'm not referring to your man
specifically. V _ W
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Right, right.
JOHN: I'm just taking a hypothetical case.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly. '
JOHN: Okay. So then you say, I would -- it
was very nice meeting you and so on, but I, you know, I
appreciate your assistance, but I would rather have
another attorney. So if you don't mind -- then you
just, you know, contact your sister, whoever, and get
another attorney. So you're not in a sense tied
through the whole system to this one man or one woman
-- this one attorney.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: You can go through -- once you just
get your initial appearance, you can say, you know, I,
I'd prefer to have Mr. X instead of Mr. Y. The judge,
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the United States Magistrate, will say, oh, that's
fine. You know, they're, they're very, very g-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John, would you know if --
my, my sister's name, her name is Sue Johnson.
JOHN: Yes . "
STEVE SCHNEIDER: would you know, did she
stay - I know that Tibido's phonetic sp.! mother
stayed in the vicinity. Still is in the Waco area from
what I understand. Was she ever down here or is she
still down here?
~~ JOHN:~~That!s a good question. I will check
on that. We've got a folder on that. I do, I do
remember seeing that letter from, you know, your
attorney that we sent in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, right.
JOHN: That, that Sue had hired. That one of
the fellows -- I've sent one of the fellows to check on
that now and he's going to check on that.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: You know, so, yeah. You're not tied
to one particular attorney. Okay. would you like to
have her down here?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't know right at
the moment.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not necessarily.
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» 43
is that it must not be charged to the Sheriff's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What about now me walking
in with money. I'm sure they take ev -- all your
valuables, watches, everything and hold it for you.
JOHN:' Yes, that's correct. And it's put in
an envelope and it's signed for and you're issued a
receipt for it. I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What if you need to make
payments or anything like that? How would that ever
work from -- if one was waiting --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- inside for even a day or
two -- I
JOHN: Oh, sure. Your attorney would handle
that. Just go down and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see.
JOHN: -- and request that you get that --
no, I -- Sue Johnson is not in town, but she asked her
-- she asked the agent to call -- the agent's a woman,
she asked the agent to call her if, if you needed
anything.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see.
JOHN: So, I just had that checked for you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Any particular agent
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JOHN: No, no. She just can call in here,
we'll put her right through to command post.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, once this starts coming
to an end and we're all out and so what part are you
going to play -- how long will you be around still
yourself?
A JOHN: As long as it is necessary. I,
particularly, am going to come down to see you. So --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I hope so.
A_ JOHN: --- probably as far as time schedule,
we're -- what, what they're looking at for me - we
have what they call a rotation system.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: I don't know if you heard that on the
press conference.' So, my, my time is growing short,
but we're on the rotational system. I think you heard
that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: would they bring you back
if we request it though?
JOHN: I don't think so at this point, but
how long you talking about roughly?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know, because you
know like I've said, personally, you know, I have been
anxious from the beginning.
JOHN: I know that.
i
45
1 STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's just the way I am.
2 JOHN: I know that. ' ' '
3 STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I -- you know, you feel
4 like you have a responsibility for all these other
5 people that don't see it clearly and you want to make - t -
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' 6 sure everybody -- because, you know, in honesty they
7 came here in, in a sense to learn the Bible like
8 myself. The only desire I've ever had in the last 10
9 years of my life, 20 years, has been to know for sure
10 what there is and what opportunity there is to live
11 eternally,_if it, if¥it's possible, you know. So, I
12 mean, that's why I came here and I realize that is
13 their only motive and reason also, so to just abandon
14 people that, you know, have a harder time expressing
15 themselves or communicating -- that's why I just felt,
16 you know, very responsible, so.
17 JOHN: Yeah. They --
18 STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, but, you know, if I, I
19 -- there were many times I asked them all if I went out
20 would you want to, well, they didn't. So, you know,
21 that's why I kept on saying I don't, you know, I, I
22 been trying to tell the guys down there that I don't
23 have the kind of influence that they think I do. I
24 don't. I mean, they've come here to hear David,
25 they're -- that's why they've stayed as long as they
have is because they have heard something they believe
.-
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in. So, you know, that's basically what it is.
JOHN:Yeah. I would like to see you come
out yourself, Steve. You, personally, Steve, come out.
STEVE
JOHN:SCHNEIDER: Right.
And I'm very serious, because of a
certain personal feeling and that's just something that
develops over time. I can't --
STEVE
beginning --
JOHN:
~ swzvsSCHNEIDER: Well, you know, from the
I can't help that.
SCHNEIDER: -- I, I think I have showed
or told that I've wanted to and that's the truth. You
know, if it, if it were just me, if I only had to
answer for myself --
JOHN:
STEVE
responsible for
JOHN:Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: -- but I do feel
these people.
Yeah. And I, and I will meet you.
And I will -- I'd like to meet you and I will meet you,
you know, assuming it's --
STEVE
older lady that
Lawson.
JOHN:SCHNEIDER: Like, you know, like the
came out. Her name was Margaret
Right.
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how we got to be friends over there was because we
heard about David, that he was opening up the Bible.
So, ultimately we both moved ~- left our homes in
Eawaii, came to see him and hear what he had to show
and so forth and that's why like herself and others --
there are still other people here that are from Hawaii.
Very good friends of mine from long time ago, of
course.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, until I can make sure
that they're moving out okay and they're safe, you
know, I, you know, I -- that's why, you know, I would
like to just, you know, get this thing going and be
done with it, so.
JOHN: Yeah. We all would and I personally
would and I will meet you personally, as I said, as
long as I'm within --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Great.
JOHN: -- my rotation, which is just a, just
a, just a very short time left.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, maybe, maybe I can
request anyway - maybe somehow they'd work it out.
JOHN: Well, if it's too long, see, they'd
incur -- what happens is they incur my travel expenses
back and they incur -~
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I see, I see. SO,
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actually when, when your time comes to an end here,
then you go back home -- ' '
JOHN:
rotation.
STEVE
JOHN:You're rotated out - what they call
SCHNEIDER: I see.
Yeah. So, hopefully we can -- you and
I can get this resolved, you know, as soon as possible,
you know. The sooner --
STEVESCHNEIDER: Well, how long are you
going to be around --
JOHN:__-- the sooner the better. I've got to
check my rotational. It's posted in the -- but I think
what one of the
day or two, you
STEVE
JOHN:
Steve, want you
STEVE
again?
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVEguys said here, we're looking at like a
know, real soon. -
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, right.
So, that's why I, I do personally,
to come out.
SCHNEIDER: Where, where was your home
California - Southern California.
SCHNEIDER: Really?
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Southern Cal -- wow.
That's where I've been living. Actually --
JOHN: Where, where?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I was in -- well, you
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property --
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
College?
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
1- STEVE-
area yourself?
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:!
49
-- now it'd be the infamous Laverne
Oh, Laverne, yeah. Up near Pomona.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
Sure. ~Pomona -- yeah, Harvey Mudd
SCHNEIDER:
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER:
Sure.
SCHNEIDER:
I know the
SCHNEIDER:
Yeah, yeah.Oh, yeah.
Oh, for sure.
You mean, you're in that
area well.
Wow!
I know the area well.
What -- I'm trying to think in that, that motel over
there. It's kind of the old --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, the Griswold?
JOHN: Griswold's, Griswold's, Griswold's.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Griswold's. I've been
there a lot of times.
JOHN: Yeah, they got that, that little gift
shop --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
JOHN: -- and that bakery in the front, and
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the restaurant's in the back.
far from me at all. You'reSTEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: I've been in there. Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Interesting. That's not
only talking a couple miles
at the, at the most.
Yeah. And then, of course,JOHN: Oh, sure. I know the place well.
Pomona College and the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. See, that's where
I've spent almost all --
JOHN:~-Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: See, coming from Hawaii,
that's where the majority of my time has been spent. I
come out here -- the longest I've been here was about a
year ago. I came out here for a while, but even
recently I've been traveling back and forth, but --
resolved.JOHN: Yeah. Steve, we want to get this
I want you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. No, I understand. I
know, I know. '
me. ThatJOHN: -- to get this resolved for --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just like myself.
JOHN: Yeah, yes. So, hey --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I'm try -- believe
s why I was so glad when finally that, that
- -- the guys came around, your bosses, and said, you
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know, dropped that off. It made a lot of difference.
That's what I've been asking for since the beginning.
JOHN: I know that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just to show the good will
and the magazines were no big deal. I mean, if they
have a press conference and they wanted to know what
the reaction was, I was right there with David. It --
that story, he knew that long ago.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, we, we -- like
what's his name, the-ATP agent Robert Gonzalez.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He
paper that morning even and we
he saw the reaction. I mean -
same kind of material in those
from that newspaper so --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: --
JOHN: Yeah. Did I,brought over Sunday's
all looked at it, so he,
and, and it was the
magazines of course as
it was not a big deal.
you know, the thought
occurred to me. Did I answer all the thoughts that you
had --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In regards to the procedure
and all that?
JOHN: Yeah, about -- because I know it so
well sometimes I --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll probably, I'll
probably have more, but you know, it's -- I know one
becomes -- when you come out of here, I'm sure you
become a number and just basically --
JOHN: No, I don't think that's going to be
true at all. In fact, I know it's sic! going to be
true and I know it's not going to be true for you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: One sees themselves, you
know, somehow or other I, I'm sure that the ATF want
blood. I mean, this is my feeling about that.
-~ JOHN: »NO..,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I can see a number of
individuals languishing away in prison.
JOHN; No, no. That's can - well, that
can't happen because of the legal system. Everybody's
going to have an attorney. If they don't have a
personal attorney --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know, but say a person is
convicted of some, something -- I don't know what, but
they end up in prison. Tell me, also, with -- do you
know anything -- I mean, I heard there's a difference
with crimes, with state, and with federal --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, with what possibly
might happen here, apparently that would be something
to do with the federal then.
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JOHN: Yeah, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Instead of the agents.
JOHN: Right. It would be probably the
federal system and, you know, it's going to be
different -- I'm sure there'll be different, different
ranges, but by the same token, you know, you got to
stop and look at individual cases and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: -- not everybody's going to be charged
in this. Don't forget that, you know.
m' STEVESCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN: And, and I got to be honest, you know.
In your particular case, I think you've contributed to,
to people inside being released or, or at least
convincing them that perhaps it would be in their own
benefit to go and I think that's a very positive thing
you've done. I mean, you know, let's face it. It's
positive.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, in honesty I don't
see that that would go very far, but anyway --
JOHN: Well, I disagree with you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I actually believe in God
and it's up to God what He wants --
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STEVE'SCHNEIDER: No, because in honesty, you
know, between you and I, everybody's now talking about
it. Everybody here and that's why, like with David, he
says just give me a few days. I think he's actually
planning -- he hasn't said, but everybody just coming
out.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I know God's opened up
- you know, you wouldn't -- I mean, I don't expect you
to buy this, but in our language we believe that God's
showing him something to do with some of the
prophecies, like he, he today wants to still connect
with Kevin and Brad, of course.
JOHN: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Open up Micah.
JOHN: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If you're nearby and you
want to overhear, you know, you can throw it out or,
or --
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by my own experience, I've always seen myself as a
into logic person that is highly into common sense and
and it's - and plus, you know, I've been a person
that's always been very skeptical of people that have
religious experiences. "So when I met David I couldn't,
you know, I, I don't buy that sort of thing.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It took me six months of
going back to the Bible and trying to rip him apart
long distance on the telephone.
~6OHN:~ I know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Then I took his information
to at least 20 ministers in my locale in Hawaii. They
controvert, nor could they answer the could not
questions I would raise, but he showed the answer.
Ultimately, I'm traveling around the world taking on
scholars, so I got the test to try it. That's why the
challenge is, is a strong challenge to the Christian
world. If you know Christ, show the seven seals,
because the last book is a revelation of Him.
JOHN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, you know, so I mean,
that's really what it's been about from the beginning.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But all these prophets that
talk about a time when the world comes to an end.
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Ultimately it has to happen sometime if the Book's
true, otherwise it's just another fairy tale. '
JOHN: Yeah. Is, is -~ 1
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, go ahead. _
JOHN: Is David talking about everyone coming
out together at the same time? Is that basically what
he's thinking?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, yeah. Either that or
maybe what we've been -- I was talking to him
yesterday, even before we actually, you know, before
the guys went out --_-
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and he mentioned quite a
good size group coming out anyhow.
JOHN: You're talking -- when are we talking
about? '
_ STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm not sure. Anywhere
between like today, tomorrow, or within the week.
Because I remember him saying the word week. See, he,
he's not pulling anything on the people, you know, on
anybody out there. You people or anything.
JOHN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Because God is showing him
something. He -- this is why he up and showed me the
night before the Book of Micah in a --
JOHN: Right.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: ~~ way I had never seen it
before. H 3 '
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, you know, in one hand
you go take off at a time, you go look at it yourself
and say well, is this true? Is it false? Is it
possible? Is it being twisted? Is this an
interpretation? You know, all these things go through
your mind --
JOHN: Oh, of course.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- always, and it does with
everybody here, so this is why he's always - everybody
has a right to leave here.
JOHN: Very true.
STEVE SCENEIDER: And they, and they do, but
they, they just want to make sure they're not doing
something against God or what they understand, you
know, the program to be.
JOHN: Of course.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: SO that's why itB I'm
sure for you guys it's a very difficult [gap] if this
was a normal thing where no religion was involved,
everybody would have been out there that Sunday.
JOHN: That's true. I believe that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: SO --
JOHN: I d0.
K
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, in fact, the whole
thing was such a -- on one hand we, we -- there were
those that had an awareness to some small degree what
might be happening. We were never sure. We were never
sure. But when it did happen and so forth, I mean,
most people hit the deck and they were just hoping for
their lives that some -- man, like myself, where I was
and Wayne, I didn't, I didn't know how long -- I
thought they were going to keep on shooting till
everybody was dead. I'll tell you the truth. That
went through my~mind.< That was -- I was almost
positive of that.
JOHN: Yeah, I'm sure. I tell you, right now
I think everybody both inside and both outside is ready
to move forward with this now, you know.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Well, you know,
that's, that's definitely the attitude.
JOHN; Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's definitely the
attitude. So when David was asking for time it wasn't
for any other reason but the religious, spiritual
aspect of it all, because if people have to go off to
jail or if this or that happens. If the groups broke
up and -- they've got to be able to look at the Bible,
ask the questions. A lot of --
End of Tape #141!
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'25}
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #142
3/20/93
1:34 P.M. - 6:41 P.M.
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Es2
Tape 142!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- have the opportunity to
go -- be making some pretty strong challenges to those
that make money off this book.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. There's going to be a lot
made off this event, you know, in all candor. There's
going to be a lot made by different people on this type
of thing.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. What, what time do
you have there. Just --
__ JOHN_DOLANi_ Okay. I just -- well, let me
check my watch. I've got 1:35.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. I know --
swsvs SCHNEIDER: so 1'11 still go, you know,
I'm going to be talking to him anytime now. I'm just
looking in on him. I know he's going to come through
any, any moment here, so --
JOHN DOLAN: Fine. I can --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I'll call you.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure, give me a call. I can set
up that call.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Would it take much
time?
JOHN DOLAN: No. We'll try to, we'll try --
we've got most of the wiring set up for it. It's, it's
' 3
frQ 1 what they call a patch --
2 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Okay. .. .
3 JOHN DOLAN: So, Rita -- I talked to Rita
__ 4 last night.
S STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
LVI 6 JOHN DOLAN: And I know she's coming out
7 tonight and I know David mentioned that she's -- you
8 know, it would be after, after the Sabbath.
9 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
IO JOHN DOLAN: So that's -- we're looking at
11 6:30 I think. If she wants to come out early, of
12 course, she can.
13 STEVE SCHNEIDER: For me, I hope it, it would
[ 14
15 JOHN DOLAN: I would prefer daytime --be daytime, because -- '
16 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Me too. I don't like the
17 whole bother of having a flashlight --
18 JOHN DOLAN: No. It's really a lot safer --
19 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
20 JOHN DOLAN: -- in the sense of walking and
21 tripping and all that stuff, you know. You don't want
22 to, you know, just twist an ankle on that road,
_ 23 because --
-~ 24 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Wasn't that -- for me it's
' 25 not as much of a concern as to what you have to go
- through with the men that, you know, want to check you
§
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JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Just what's your own
thoughts. A ' '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You mean like for Rita?
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. We're just talking --
I didn't know how many we were talking about.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I don't know yet,
see.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm waiting -- that's why I
need to talk to David --
-. JOHN_DOLAN; Yeah. 4
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- because, you know, there
have been a lot of people asking questions now and
they're talking amongst themselves, so --
JOHN DOLHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you know, I haven't --
like with them I've told them, well, I don't know
because she wanted to talk to him about -- had a
question or two about the Bible, but you know, they --
you -- they've worked that out with you --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and he wants to give
that study and I'm sure he's got some pretty strong
thoughts then, too, about, you know, the rest of it
so --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. David --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that's why I'm anxious,
myself, to talk to him. A ' '
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. David had said others, so
I know that he had something in the back of his mind.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh yeah, you know, like
definitely as time is come -- is going on in the next,'
you know, as it's developing it's going to keep on
working on that direction, so --
JOHN DODAN: Yeah. So as far as this
afternoon then, basically, we're, we're -- should plan
on making a comfortable place for Rita.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. And, and who knows?
Maybe even more but, you know, right now I don't know
because I -- H -
some mom; Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- need to talk to them.
So, again, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't come down
to me. They --
JOHN DOLAN: Iunderstand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, if they ask me,
you know, I mean, it's -- but --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: y-- he's the one that's
opening up the Bible to them. I've never been able to
do that.
JOHN DOLAN: Your, your thought about the
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daylight is, is a good thought and --
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Oh, it is.
JOHN DOLAN: We should continue --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I mean, that's what my
preference -- especially after last night, you know,
seeing the guys. I watched and they went down --
muddy, I mean, it was raining out, a muddy, dirty old
road and especially now that it's tore up, you know, by
the Bradleys and, and they had to stand out there from
a distance and -- it was a long time before they
finally got in the Bradley.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: The laying their caps down
in the dirt and all that and, you know, and the -- you
could hear the voices of the guys that were in charge
and, you know, I mean, it didn't, it didn't sound like
the greatest thing on earth to go through, but --
- JOHN DOLAN: No, it isn't and the problem is
the nighttime. At nighttime --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Nighttime causes that.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: I know for myself I hope it all
happens sooner, you know, really soon.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, tell me. I mean, I
can't wait till I can take a deep breath and just kind
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of relax again.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean it's been a couple
weeks of this kind of pressure and, you know, it's --
JOHN DOLAN: It's got to be getting old for
you, you know?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, hey, it was -- I'll
tell you what. when those bullets started coming in
that Sunday, it's, it's been hardly changed from that
time. I mean, even from then, I mean, my knees were
weak when those bullets were flying through the walls.
JOHN DOLAN: Steve, you know, this afternoon
is as good a time as anytime in all candor.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: You know, it really is. So,
just put it in the back of your mind, you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, YOU know --just,
JOHN DOLAN: I really want to meet you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the only reason --
JOHN DOLAN: I'll be here, I'll be here,
so --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: The only reason -- and
today's a big day. It's the Sabbath.
JOHN DOLAN: Exactly.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, that's the reason why
Rita going out at the time, otherwise question it would
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have been morning, noon, or something like that.
Seriously. >2 '
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Tomorrow's Sunday. Now,
this is a different story for us.
JOHN DOLAN: Different story?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, completely. So
that's why I'm anxious to talk with David now and, and
to see just what, what's happening. u
JOHN DOLAN= Do you think tomorrow could be a
big day? _ _. V
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It could be. It's, it's a
possib -- in my mind, but you know, again, I, I'm --
he's, like, constantly -- you open -- when I do go in
there, he's got the Bible in his lap and --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and he's opening up
things very clearly. You know, he'll -- that's why,
you know, like today when he does call in you can
listen to the kind of thing that, that he's shown or
what he -- '
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and then, then you can
gauge as to how these people are judging or what
they're going by. That'll give you an inclina --
JOHN DOLAN: Right. It is my hope --
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- inclination.
JOHN DOLAN: It is my hope, Steve, this will
all happen tomorrow. -
' srsvs SCHNEIDER: well, you never know.
JOHN DOLAN: You never know, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. You know, I'm always
-- like yourself, I'm anxious also, so --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Well, I really want to
see this come -- the way it's coming and I want to meet
you personally and, and I really want to see you and
just get together andwwe'l1 shake hands --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: -- and have a few words before
my rotational comes up.
sravs SCHNEIDER: Right. So if --
JOHN DOLAN: I really want that very much.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If your rotational comes
up, you would be gone for how many days?
JOHN DOLAN: It's a 30-day rotational, which,
you know, that's the way they work it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: A 30-day?
JOHN DOLAN: Rotational, yeah. You're away
from your per diem post, what they call per diem, for
30 days.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
JOHN DOLAN: So -- then you, you know, that's
V
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just -- it's a rotational system.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So if you left, like, in
two days, you wouldn't be back then? H
JOHN DOLAN: For 30. Yeah, that's they way
they do it. But -- -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Whoa!
JOHN DOLAN: But hopefully I'll be here to
greet you before the, before my rotational comes up,
you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLANKW Let's, let's do that. And I
personally want to see --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, in your, in your line
of work --
JOHN DOLAN: -- you out there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, what, do you move all
over American then?
JOHN DOLAN: No, the way it works, we're
transferred to an office and we stay in that office
depending, you know, on the needs -- what they call the
needs of the Government, however that works.
swsvs SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: And usually -- right now, you
know, the reason they don't frequently now is they
actually -- it sounds ridiculous, but the Government is
tightening strings on dollars.
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, sure, sure.
JOHN DOLAN: And money -- transfers cost a
lot of money, so --
. STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: You stay in an office for a
relatively long period of time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right .
JOHN DOLAN: And, you know, some of the
Southern California offices, they've had people in
there who, who just came out of training school and
they're in there fortlike --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are a lot of these guys who
get into like ATP, FBI, and all these things, are they
out of the military?
JOHN DOLAN= No, no. There's all kinds of
different programs out there, you know. There's all
the people who've been teachers and -- but it's not all
military.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, really?
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, yeah. That's called the
modified program.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll be, I'll be into the
recruiting section here in a second. That's called,
that's called modified program, it's -- requires three
years of like any experience, like teaching or anything4
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ever allow you, I mean, can it be a guarantee to bring
in a number -- a few books or something like that?
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Absolutely. That's, that's no problem at all.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, okay.
JOHN DOLAN= That's no problem at all. In
fact, let me tell you what I did. Last night, when --
I'm trying to think who was -- Kevin or --
STEVE SOHNEIDER: And Brad.
JOHN DOLAN: When Kevin came down.
STEYE,SCHNE;DER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: I noticed that his Bible was not
there. And as it turned out that the sedan that
brought him in, the four-door sedan, they had left his
Bible purely by acoident in the back seat of the, of
the sedan or the front seat, whatever.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: So, I said to one of the
gentlemen, I said, I have made a personal
representation that this is, is, is my personal
representation. hnd I sent one of the deputies out and
he brought in the Bible --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
JOHN DOLAN= -- so, you know, if I say
something, I'm going to do it. But, yeah, books of any
type, whether it's religious or, or it doesn't matter
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the topic.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'd have, like myself, two
Bibles and a Concordance most likely. l
JOHN DOLAN: I -- well, you not only can have
them in there, you can bring them with you if you want
or we'll get them for you.
srsvz SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: Either way you want to do it.
And that's, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That is -- I'll tell you
what, I mean, you know, this is very extremely, as you
would know, unusual to me, but --
JOHN DOLAN: Of course. But --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's definitely a -new
experience. l
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. It's a new experience and
it's not a harsh experience as unusual as it may sound
and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
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JOHN DOLAN: -- as, as unusual as it sounds,
there's thousands of people that go through this every
single day of the year, you know, and so, you know, it
just goes on and on and on and, and, you know, the,
the, the federal system as well as the state systems
now are extremely oriented towards people's rights,
towards being with their attorney, towards seeing their
attorney, you know, so --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How would that work with a
guy that's so far away, like say, in Houston all the
way up here to Naco,_though? '
JOHN DOLAN: Say that again now?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, like the attorney
that was apparently -- 3
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, oh, that he's in, that he's
in Houston? '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, sure. No, he just comes up
for the appearances. He comes up to meet with you.
You call him on the phone.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I would think that would be
extremely expensive, wouldn't it?
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I don't know. How many
miles is it? We're looking at 100 --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We're looking at over --
well over 100.
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JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Another way they do it,
they call it local counsel. So let's just say that
there was a minor matter. It was just some type of
appearance where you wanted something relatively minor,
say, to be done. You wanted to maybe have your bond
extended to travel to some place you didn't list.
Okay? So when they, when they issue the bond
initially, what they do is they list the travel points.
Okay? So let's say that it's a pretty much what they
call perfunctory thing.
-- You just wanted to, in law what they call,
enlarge the bond to make it an additional state. Okay,
so that's pretty simple. I mean, the guy just goes in,
asks it, and it's yours. A rubber stamp the thing in
many cases. So he would then just have a local
counsel, a guy in, in Waco go across the street or up a
few blocks, go into court, make the motion, and that's
it.
But for, for the actual representation, then,
then he would come down, he would come down for the
hearing or, you know, any significant part of it.
srsvs SCHNEIDER: Right. Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: That's how that's works.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm sure I'll have more
questions as time goes on.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, sure. But please ask them
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and, you know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. "
JOHN DOLAN: -- and if I can't answer them,
which I, I probably can answer most all questions, I'll
find out the answer and like I said before, I'd like to
be a part in coordinating this for you and for
everybody.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'd appreciate it. I
really would.
JOHN DOLAN: Good. Well --
. STEVE_SCHNEIDER: Okay, I'm going to be --
I'm going to call you back then here --
JOHN DOLAN: Fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- as soon as I can, which
I'm hoping, you know, will be fairly soon here.
JOHN DOLAN: Great.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay?
JOHN DOLAN: Great. Thanks a lot, Steve. 92
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure. I'll talk to you in 92
a bit.
JOHN DOLAN= Goodbye.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye.
Connection broken.!
Q Q i I Q
Telephone being dialed.!
Telephone ringing -- 4 rings.!
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RACHEL: Hello.
JOHN DOLAN: Hi, Rachel?
RACHEL: Hi.
I JOHN DOLAN: Hi, this is John. How're you
doing? A
RACHEL: Fine.
JOHN DOLAN: Great, great. How's Bobbi?
RACHEL: Oh, she's doing pretty good.
JOHN DOLAN: She was cute the other night.
RACHEL: Yeah.
_ JOHN DOLAN:v Is David around or Steve around?
RACHEL: Yeah. Preferably which one?
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, they're both around, huh?
RACHEL: Well, no - '
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I have a message for Steve
so -- yeah, I have a message for Steve.
RACHEL: Okay. Here Steve comes --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I'll talk to Steve first
and -- ~
RACHEL TO STEVE: Oh, okay.
RACHEL: He told me to talk to you for a
minute because he's going to try to see if David's
around.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. Okay. That's fine.
I always enjoy talking to you. You have a very nice
voice.
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RACHEL: Oh, thank you.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, yeah. How's mine sound?
RACHEL: I enjoy talking to you. Sorry?
JOHN DOLAN: -- enjoys talking to me?
RACHEL: No, I said I enjoy talking to you
COO.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, well, this is good to hear.
That's good to hear. It was fun with Bobbi last night.
It really kind of -- I looked at, I looked -- went back
to the video.
RACHEL: on,
JQHN DQLAN:
RACHEL: She
not her usual self.
JOHN DOLAN:
RACHEL:' Shé
talks a lot.
JCHN DOLAN:
RACHEL: And
quiet.
JOHN DOLAN:
RACHEL: She
JOHN DOLAN:Iyeah.
Yeah.
was very quiet though. That's
Oh, what's she like usually?
s very talkative. You know, she
Oh, is that right?
she - in the video she was very
Very. Yeah.
wouldn't say anything.
Uh'92.lh 0
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: No, I went back. I wanted to
see what she looked like again, you know? It's, it's
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RACHEL: Oh, yeah. Well, I appreciate that.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, you know, it was a little
thing but I hope, I hope the Sabbath was --
' RACHEL: Yeah, well that's a big thing for
us. "
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, I know. I, I know, but
it's on -- in a sense a little thing, but --
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: -- it's always, you know, if you
can get something done for somebody I enjoy that.
1 RACHEL: Yeah, well, that's great.
JOHN DOLAN: I'm really, I'm really looking
forward to meeting you and Bobbi and --
RACHEL: Yeah, same here.
JOHN DOLAN= Yeah. I hope it won't be too,
too distant away, you know.
RACHEL: Well, I don't think so.
JOHN DOLAN= Good, good, good.
RACHEL: I don't think it will be too far.
So, how's Kevin and Brad?
KORESH: Kevin and Brad, okay. Let me tell
you something about that. It was very, very, very
fortunate that Kevin came out, because he had to be
treated by physicians. I'm not sure what they did --
RACHEL: How did he get blood poisoning?
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I don't think it was blood
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poisoning. We thought it might have been and it
apparently didn't turn out to be blood poisoning. It's
called phlebitis.
RACHEL: What's that? _
JOHN DOLAN: Well, it's an inflammation of --
I guess of the veins and -- basically varicose veins to
put it in layman's terms.
RACHEL: Uh-huh. Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: But he had really bad varicose
veins. So they took him down to the hospital. I
believe they took him last night or very early this
morning. I guess, early this morning now they took him
and checked him over and I guess treated him or
whatever they did, but they were concerned about him,
but now he's okay. And he's been released from the
hospital. '
RACHEL: Oh, great.
JOHN DOLAN: So, we -- I went down, as you
know -- I don't know if you do know, but --
RACHEL: Yes.
JOHN DOLAN: -- I promised.
RACHEL: I heard that you were going to see
them last night or something when they left here.
JOHN DOLAN: Yes, I did. I went down to see
them and I said, well, you know, how was everybody
treated and every -- how were you both treated and
1
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Kevin said everybody was very professional, very
professional.
RACHEL: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, that's what he -- those
are pretty much his exact words, and I shook his hand a
couple of times and the sheriff himself, Jack Harwell
came in.
RACHEL: Oh, good.
JOHN DOLAN: And he -- I mean personally.
RACHEL: Yes.
> -JOHN~DOLAN: This -- and, you know, he's
quite a guy. He came in personally, introduced
himself, and he said I want you to know that you'll get
the best of treatment here and he was very, very
cordial. And I think --
RACHEL! Well, I've never met him before, but
I know David speaks very highly of him.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I,
I've been around doing this job for a while and I have
never, ever, ever been better treated than last night
by everybody at that facility.
RACHEL: Oh, really?
JOHN DOLAN: And, and the sheriff has told me
personally that everybody will be treated the same way.
RACHEL: Oh, that's good.
JOHN DOLAN: He's fantas--
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RACHEL: How long has he been sheriff of this
county? "
JOHN DOLAN: Four terms, five terms --
' RACHEL: Really?
JOHN DOLAN: $0, it's about 20, 21 years or
22 years.
RACHEL: Wow!
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
RACHEL: That's a long time.
JOHN DOLAN: A long, long time. And he's,
he's truly one of these man -- one of these men that my_ . - -7 _,_-~
bond -- my word is my bond.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN DOLAN: And he came down there last
night. I, I've -- to be honest with you, I've never
seen it done. And he's that type of guy, though.
RACHEL: Well, that's good that he can, you
know, keep a good reputation with the people for so
many years. ~
JOHN DOLAN: I tell you, all -- he just comes
in and he's got a Texas, I call him cowboy hats, but
western hat --
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: And he's got a western hat and
doesn't wear a badge. I mean, he's just got a jacket
on, boots, and that's, you know --
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RACHEL: Texas -- kind of country, huh?
JOHN DOLAN: He's a country person.
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: He's a genuine human being and
I, I tell you, it was -- well, I'm sure Kevin will
relate it also, but he just came in, I introduced
myself and who I am, you will be treated well and
everyone -- and he's told me, he said, I'll tell you
something, John. Everyone will be treated this exact
way that I did this. It was -- I tell you.
A" FACHELE Héfhad control over that or --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, he's --
RACHEL: I, I don't know the system,
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. Well, he's the
elected official so he's in charge. He's the number
one man in the county, in the sheriff's department, in
the jail. It's his, it's his jail.
RACHEL: Oh.
JOHN DOLAN: What he says, goes. And I mean,
you couldn't meet a nicer guy, I mean, for him to come
down and just go in and introduce himself to --
RACHEL: Is it, is it the jail in Bellmead or
the one over off of Highway 6, I believe, or somewhere
around there?
JOHN DOLAN: It's, it's Columbus, Columbus
Street. I think it's S01 or 510 Columbus Street, right
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in Waco. It's right downtown Waco, right off
Interstate 35 and it's a really nice facility. It's a
really nice facility.
RACHEL: I don't remember seeing a jail over
there. H
JOHN DOLAN: It's --
RACHEL: I mean I know where the courthouse
is and everything.
JOHN DODAN: Um-hum.
RACHEL: Where is it from there?
_. JOHN_DOLAN;g It's very near the courthouse,
very near the courthouse. It's on, on Columbus. And
he came in himself and we - of course, we got Kevin a
Dr. Pepper and we got Dr. Pepper sodas for Brad and --
but Brad, Brad switched to water. He wasn't big on Dr.
Pepper, so he wanted to drink water instead of Dr.
Pepper. But we got all that stuff for them and I just,
basically, wanted to meet them both and I guess in
actuality Kevin and I chatted a little bit more,
whereas I just said hello to Brad, because I think he
was just kind of gathering himself, you know?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: And I did one other thing that I
wanted to tell you about and I told Steve about this
morning. One of the representations, the promises,
that I had made was -- and we, we cleared it with the
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sheriff, was that they could have their Bibles.
RACHEL: Oh, good. y
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, yeah. Well, one of the
things that happened in the -- I donft want to call it
excitement, but just the movement, the Bible was left
in the car and I checked on it myself to make sure that
it was there and it wasn't. It was in the car, the
Chevrolet or whatever it was, that, that brought them
there.
RACHEL: Um-hum.
-< JOHN DOLAN¢~ And so we had one of the
deputies go out and actually bring back the Bible for
them.
RACHEL: Oh, that's good.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, you know, it's important
to do these things, I think.
RACHEL: Yeah. Well, I tell you what, this
is definitely going to be -- I mean, it has been an
experience for me, but it's going to be more so an
experience to me. I've never been through this before,
you know.
JOHN DOLAN: It's, it's really nothing to it.
It's nothing to it at all. It's, it's all explained to
you really well -- how simple it is. First of all, you
know, just like the little kids, you come out and walk
down the driveway, just to the end of the driveway.
-!
31
RACHEL: Um-hum.
JOHN DOLAN: And then we'll have one of those
vehicles where all the kids have been going in. The
ones that always complain about bouncing around?
RACHEL: Bradleys?
JOHN DOLAN: The Bradleys, yeah. And we'll
put you in a Bradley, or actually, we might use the
bus. We may use a bus, too. And if there's more than
a couple, we use a bus. And we'll just go down to the
next section of the road and if it's a bus, we'll just
keep on going. Alf itfs a Bradley, we'll switch to like
a -_
RACHEL: Does it go past all the media and
all that or does it go a different direction?
JOHN DOLAN: There is some media on the way.
Yes, there is some media on the way, but what they're
going to do is the Depart -- the DPS is going to move
them is my understanding --
RACHEL: I'm not interested in having my
picture taken or anything.
JOHN DOLAN: No, I can understand that. So
we'll have DPS move them back. Department of -- you
know. Some public service for the State of Texas,
they'll move them back. They've got all the uniformed
troopers here. And they'll just move them back and
they'll be able to keep everybody out of the way. And
~
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then just -- if it's a large group, like I said in the
bus, they'll be just processed and then they're brought
down to Sheriff Harwell's place. It's real simple
processing. It's all set up in hangars out here and
it's - it'll go real smoothly.
RACHEL: Uh-huh.
JOHN DOLAN: Real smoothly.
RACHEL: That's good.
JOHN DOLAN: Good, good. I also wanted to
make one other point besides mentioning to Kevin and
also getting his Bible for him, anybody else who wants
to keep their Bible or books will be allowed to do so.
RACHEL: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: So, that might be -- so how do
you feel about all these things now that I've mentioned
them to you? '
RACHEL: Well, it makes me feel a little bit
better, you know. I ~- most people here don't know
that much about the system I don't think. I mean I,
myself, don't. I -- you know, this has never happened
to me before.
JOHN DOLAN: Of course not.
RACHEL: So, you know --
JOHN DOLAN: Of course not.
RACHEL: -- it helps to know what you're
saying.
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JOHN DOLAN: Yes. And if you have anymore
questions or anybody has anymore questions about the
system or the processing, it's a relatively simple
procedure even though I know it's unknown to you.
There will be attorneys appointed for you and they will
be with you, you know, for any court appearances, bond
hearings, and so on.
RACHEL: Yeah. A
JOHN DOLAN: I hope I've made you feel better
about this. Rachel?
__ RACH£L;_ Yeah, I'm here.
JOHN DOLAN: I hope I've made you feel better
about this.
RACHEL: Just a minute.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
Out-of=hearing discussion.!
RACHEL IO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: -- explained
to me about the Bible and -H
Continued outeof-hearing discussion.!
RACHEL: John. p
JOHN DOLAN: Hi, Rachel.
RACHEL: I'm here.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
RACHEL: Well, I guess Steve is making his
way to the phone.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I've got a message for
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JOHN DOLAN: That's okay.
Long pause.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John.
' JOHN DOLAN: Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Can I call you in
like five minutes?
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
swsvs SCHNEIDER: okay. 1'11 call -- 1'11
call you right back.
JOHN DOLAN: The only reason I called, I've
got a message for you, so call me back in five minutes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I will for sure.
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thanks, John.
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Bye-bye.
Connection broken.!
Q 1' i Q i
Telephone ringing -- I ring.!
JOHN DOLAN: Hello.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello, John?
JOHN DOLAN: Steve, how you doing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. What did you have
for me there?
JOHN DOLAN: All right. It's -- I spoke to a
woman who sounds exactly like you do.
36
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It must be my sister.
JOHN DOLAN: It is, it is. Yeah, she's very
nice. I knew you were concerned about the attorneys --
I swsvs SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
JOHN DOLAN: -- and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know what? I really
hadn't forgot my time here, but well, the Sabbath --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They're almost over --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
__ ,STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I'm going to call
you back and I'm going to talk to you about that, so if
you can hold that message for me.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We're, we're talking to
someone else right now also and I'll give you that name
as soon as we talk to a little further.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, sundown.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Or -- and he -- I
might even call you before, because right now he's just
starting to talk with another individual so as soon as
he has a few more words with the person, I'll, I'll be
giving you a call as soon as possible, but we'll be
calling you, you know, pretty quick here.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I'll wait for your call.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Good.
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JOHN DOLAN: Talk to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; Okay, bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Bye-bye.
Connection broken.!
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JOHN DOLAN: Hello.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello, John.
JOHN DOLAN: Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hey, can -- is -- I was
just talking with David. Is it possible to get Brad
and Kevin on the_phone?
JOHN DOLAN= We were -- yeah, we can, we can
do that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Do you need -- do you want
me to call back? Do you need some time or should I
just hang on right now?
JOHN DOLAN: No, no. We're going to need
some time to get - to do it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. How much -- just
tell me when you want me to call back.
JOHN DOLAN= Okay. We can -- we'll call into
you as soon as we've got them.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. What's, what's, what's -
oh, did I give you the message? That's, that's the
only basic reason I called.r
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STEVE SCHNEIDER: A moment ago about my
sister. - ~ -
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Okay. I spoke --
' ~ STEVE SCHNEIDER: But you didn't finish it
yet, but I told you I'd call you just after the
Sabbath. I was -- when the sun goes down, then I'll
talk to you -- I
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I want -- I've been
here so long I forget sometimes where I am, when --
JOHN DOLAN:M I know. _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- what time of the day it
is here.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, ,So, David would like to
talk to, to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Brad and Kevin.
JOHN DOLAN: -- Brad and Kevin.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. We'll, we'll start
working on that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: He's going to be there, then, it
shouldn't be -- take within maybe by the phone for
maybe 20 minutes, half hour, somewhere in there?
,7"92
39
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll listen for the phone.
JOHN DOLAN: All right. I'll -- it's going
to take a few minutes, because, you know, it/s -- we
got to call down there, they got to call back and all
kinds of little -- .. A
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: But we'll call back in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: As soon as you call me, I'm
- we'll go for it.
JOHN DOLAN: Sounds good.
STEVE_SCHNEIDER: Okay. Talk to you again.
JOHN DOLAN: Super. Right, bye.
srsvz SCHNEIDER: Bye.
' t a a 1 0
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello.
JOHN COX: Hey, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John.
JOHN COX: John, right.
srsva SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN COX: How you doing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Not too bad.
JOHN COX: Good, good. Listen, we -- we're
ready to put this patch together --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN COX: -- with Kevin and Brad.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
n-.> -¢<-'o,92
Right?
differenti
40
JOHN COX: And, and David I guess, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, that sounds right.
JOHN COX: Is he, is he available?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He sure is.
JOHN COX: Great.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, John, your last name is
JOHN COX: No, no.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is John Cox.
JOHN COX: John-1, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN COX: Okay.Okay. Gotcha.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You sound a little bit
there. '
JOHN COX: We're not throwing you John-4 yet.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Laughter.! Not yet, huh?
JOHN COX: No, no.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So you're, you're about
ready then?
has he?JOHN COX: Yeah, we are.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, John Dolan, he's left,
JOHN cox: Yep.
s'rsv:-: SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN COX: Yep, for the evening.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
41
i 1 1 JOHN COX: You're stuck with me, pal.
2 STEVE SCHNEIDER: No problem.
3 JOHN COX: Okay.
4 , STEVE SCHNEIDER: It'B all right.
S JOHN COX: Let me get David on and then we'll
Q-. - -
?" 6 patch them through.
7 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Here he is. Just a minute.
em JOHN cox: Okay.
9 STEVE SCHNEIDER TO KORESH: It's John Cox.
10 KORESH: Mr. Cox, John.
11 JOHN COX: Yeah -- Mr. Cox is my dad. You
. _ . _ ._ _&_.
12 know that.
13 KORESH: Yeah, I forgot all about that. 14 N JOHN COX: How you been? »
15 XORESH: :We're doing, we're doing pretty
16 good. I
17 JOHN COX: Good. I didn't wear you out last
1e. night?
19 KORESH: No. I thought you'd, I thought
20 you'd be on your knees all last night, repenting for
21 all the wisdom you received.
22; JOHN COX: I don't know. That water burger
23 phonetic sp.! story was pretty heavy.
I 24 KORESH: Yeah. That, that's the truth
- 25 though.
»- JOHN COX: That was tough. Listen, how much
k
*t-v'- .._._._ _ ._ _ _. ._.__ _______._,,__ , _ . _._-_.._. -__--___._ .. _ _ _ __
!
92 92
42
time do you need do you think?
KORESH: Well, like I say. They're going to,
they're going to have some questions and like I said I
gotta finish up where I left off last night.
JOHN COX: Okay. You got any idea?
KORESH: Oh, it could be 30 minutes to an
hour or so.
JOHN COX: Okay. Because we been told that
sometime around seven o'clock other people have to come
in where they are and clean up some area and other
things, so think that would be all right? Till around
seyen oclock?'*H "w
KORESH: What time is it now?
JOHN COX: It's about 6:19, something like
that. You know, 7:00, 7:15? Something like that?
KORESH:. Okay. Let's, let's work it. We'll
see what we can do.
JOHN COX: Okay? And then I'll talk to you
if -- a little while after they get off. Make sure
everythings okay.
KORESH: Okey doke.
JOHN COX: All right. Hang on. We're going
to patch you through. And I'll be here if you need
something.
KORESH: Okay.
JOHN COX: All right.
.- _
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Patch connected, but indiscernible.!
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: H8110.
KQRESH: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: David.
KORESH: Yeah;
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm Dick
indiscernible!. I'm here with, with indiscernible!.
Can you hear me all right?
KORESH: Yeah, pretty good.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. We're, we're on
the speaker system here, so if you can't hear, just --
will you
with me, Clear connection restored.!
JOHN COX: Are you there?
XOREEH: We're here.
JOHN COX: Can you hear everybody?
KORESH:' Like I heard Dick.
JOHN COX: You heard Dick all right?
KORESH: Yeah. I heard Dick.
JOHN COX: All right. Hold on just a second,
This thing's all screwed up. Be patient
David.
KORESH: We will.
Pause.!
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's okay.
Pause.!
JOHN COX: Hello.
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KORESH: Hello.
JOHN COX: Hello.
KORESH: Hello.
JOHN COX: Yeah, David. We're still working
at it, pal. "
xonzss: Okay.
JOHN COX: We're, we're having some technical
difficulties. You find that hard to believe, don't
you? Be patient with me --
Pause.!
* JOHN COX: ~Can I call you back in just a
second?
KORESH: Sure.
JOHN COX: Okay. I appreciate it. Thank
you, David.
KORESH:. Okey doke.
JOHN COX: Bye-bye.
Connection broken.!
1 & 1 i 1
Wrong number tone.!
Telephone ringing -- 1 ring.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello.
JOHN COX: Hey, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, John.
JOHN COX: Can we try again?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sure can.
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5:Dick.
other end
over here
hear me we
them close:
45
JOHN COX: Thank you.
srsvz SCHNEIDER: Just a minute. '
JOHN COX: Thank you.
KORESH: We be back.
JOHN COX: Okay. Are you on now? Hello.
DICK: Yes.
JOHN COX: Okay. Are you there, David?
KORESH: Yeah, I'm here.
JOHN COX: Okay. You should have them on the
of the phone now.
KORESH: Are you guys there?
DICK: Can you hear everything, David?
KORESH: I heard -- is that you, Diok?
DICK: Yeah. Can you hear Kevin and Brad?
KORESH:' Kevin? Brad?
KEVIN AND BRAD: Hey, David. Hey, David.
KORESH: Y'all gotta speak up.
DICK: H11 right. I'm going to let them get
a little bit closer to the phone. You can
11, can't you? '
KORESH: Yeah, I can hear you.
DICK: All right. Well, I'm going to move
r to the phone, David.
KORESH: All right.
DICK: And if we lose you, it's due to
.. ,_....._... .__-.. 0
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KORESH: Okay. Good. You can hear me
right? ' '
KEVIN: Just very good.
XORESH: All right. Okay. Do you all
you all have any questions last night from where
left off? Either one of you?
KEVIN: Yeah, I did, but I can't think
them right now.
KORESH: Why -- you're under all the
excitement there, huh?
KEVIN :Very much.
KORESH:47
then,
-- did
we
of
Okay. Well, remember, remember as
we were talking about, you know, you got your -- both
got your Bibles there? A
KEVIN: Yeah, we got them open to Maca
Micah. '
KORESH: Okay. Now, remember, Micah whatever
-- when you review whatever Micah, Habakkuk, Nahum,
Zephaniah, all of those books, remember, are
contemporary with Isaiah. Okay? You remember that
now, right? Can you hear me?
BRAD: Yeah --
KORESH= Okay. Now, you remember what
Zephaniah states? The just Lord's in the midst
thereof, he will not do iniquity?
BRAD: Uh-huh.
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KORBSH: Okay. Now, you know, remember in
Zephaniah we're talking about Assyria. A ' The books
consistently revolve around Assyria and remember that.
Do you? Yes or no.
KEVIN: Yes. ~
BRAD: Yes.
KORESH: Okay. So, one thing to keep you
from being flooded out from the process you're going
through is always remember and never forget this, who
sits on the throne?
l .KEVIN;i God-
BRAD: The Rock.
KORESH: Okay. And all that's been written
aforetime, since the beginning of the kingdom of
Israel. Remember the first king was Saul, remember the
- Israel wanted to be as the Gentiles who had men to
lord over them?
BRAD: Um-hum.
KORESH= Okay. Now, that's the whole
controversial subject, just like everything we've
taught you from the beginning. All the way through
Isaiah, all the way through the Davidian kingdom,
everything revolves around the fact that as long as man
controls man, the difficulties and problems of the
world as it is now witnessed and in past generations is
going to remain. And not until Israel comes to thel
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to know. The world of God, the universe of God. Okay.
So, now, the Father gave the Book to the Lamb as_a
gift, right? '
KEVIN: Right.
BRAD: Right.
KORESH: Because he only is righteous to
receive it and the Lamb having seven eyes, who really
only knows the mind of God?
BRAD: The Lamb.
KORESH: Yeah. Because God's made a little
game, hasn't he?
xsvnu Right.
KORESH: You know, like with King David of
old and Goliath, there was a little game. Goliath came
with all of his big swords and all that. David met him
with a rock, right? A little stone. You know, God
likes to play around with mankind, doesn't he.
xsvm= Right .
KORBSH: Okay. Now, so you got to always
remember that what I've shown you, it's been free
hasn't it?
KEVIN: That's right.
KORESH: It's been a free gift, right? No
charge. Just - I've shown it to you. Right, Brad?
BRAD: Yeah.
KQRESH: And you've got -- you take this as a
0-r.._ > Q
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92
S2
promise not from me, because you all never knew me when
you first met me in the flesh. You only knew me as you
began to sit and listen and learn my knowledge in
regards to these seals, right?
xsvzm Right . "
KORESH: So no matter whether you're here or
whether you're there or whether you're any place in the
world, God --
End of Tape #142!
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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #143
3/20/93
POMI - PaMo-9., --Q--
1
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92-
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tape 143!
DAVID: -- Okay. Now, so, I come, my reward
was with me, wasn't it? '
. BRAD: Yes.
DAVID: Remember, Brad, in that bar you first
tried to teach me about Ood?
BRAD: Yes.
DAVID: Remember, you was trying to convert
me? You didn't know who I was, did you? You, you just
heard us talking about God, me and Randall at the, at
the bar there, and you came up and you was going to
tell me everything, remember?
BRAD: Yeah.
DAVID: Okay. And I listened, didn't I?
BRAD: Yes, you did.
DAVID: And then when I asked you questions,
then you began to learn to listen, didn't you? And you
found out something, didn't you?
BRAD: Yes.
DAVID: Okay. Now, here we go again. Now,
in the overall picture you remember the first seal is
found where?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Psalms.
DAVID: Okay. The 45th Psalm, right? And
the heart of God has been revealed to you, hasn't it?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yes.
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is; 3
DAVID: That's God talking throughout the
prophetic language, isn't it? God wrote the Bible,
right? You know that now. Now, in God's heart God
speaks of the outcome in regards to our present
situation. The Son's going to win, isn't he?
KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: I mean, who in their right mind wants
to fight against Christ, right? But that doesn't mean
that everybody's in their right mind, does it?
KEVIN: Right.
@_i DAVID:_ Okay, And according to the 45th
Psalm, when we are made aware of that daughter who
stands at his right hand, the question, Hearken, O
daughter, and consider, the question is what girl in
her right mind would not want to marry the Lamb, right?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: This is the overall questions in
regards to the seals that are brought to our attention.
And, of course, we know that the bride is the Spirit of
God. I mean, people don't understand that in the
world. You already know that. I mean, the Spirit that
made heaven and earth was the very Spirit that was
breathed into the nostrils of Adam, remember?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Um-hum. Right.
DAVID: And out of that Spirit, which is life
the Eloheim took from Adam's side and made a what? A
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woman. So you see, men don't understand the things
that I've show you all, because they don't understand
the unlimited resources and powers of the Father. They
don't understand. So, for every man that's given life,
God's perfect image is that that man with life may have
a wife, right? And that the wife and the man together
shall be as one. Because you all guys through
experience know that in the flesh it's kind of a hard
thing to deal with, isn't it? All right. Now, the
prophecies according to the 45th Psalm, the first seal,
the man on the_white horse, you know that Psalms 1,
Psalms 2, Psalms 3, Psalms 4, the 150 Psalms, all
decode the very mind and spirit of the one who brings
that truth. Correct? '
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: -I haven't just told you my thoughts.
I've showed you my thoughts, haven't I?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right. Right.
DAVID: I mean, have I been fair?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yeah.
DAVID: I mean, now, knowing now what my
thoughts have been and knowing what my doctrine is, it
is not really mine. It's my father's, right?
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Although they might not want to hear you and although
they might not want to know your mind. You might not
be eloquent orators. Remember Psalms 1. After
receiving the 45th Psalm, the key of David, we know
that in Psalms 1 you meditate on this day and night and
you shall bring forth your fruit in due season and the
fruit is that salvation, the promise that you've been
given in the 45th Psalm, to be in the marriage,
Revelation 19. Right? We want to make that event,
don't we.
KEVIN:__Tha§[s right.
DAVID: You know, the world is going to pass
away and the fullness thereof, but the promise stands
for sure. God speaks of things that are not to
overthrow the things that are. This is the whole New
Testament knowledge. God is true -- he cannot lie,
he's not a liar, and the promises are sure. So in
Psalms 2, when the heathen rage and imagine a vain
thing, which you all guys know what that's all about,
right? Their thoughts not being in harmony with the
mind of God, they're the ones who say, let us break
their bands asunder and cast their cords away from us.
They don't understand our doctrine, do they?
BRAD AND KEVIN: No.
DAVID: And they don't want me to bind them
unto myself, unto God, by opening the seals, do they?
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BRAD AND KEVIN: No.
DAVID: They don't want to hear about these
seals, do they?
' BRAD AND KEVIN: No.
DAVID: Because every man with mind and
conscious knows that Scripture clearly teaches that no
man can reveal the seals but who?
BRAD AND KEVIN: The Lamb.
DAVID: So that's why they're going to be
judged and condemned because they, in their own
carnality, don't even want to know. But, on the other
hand, there are some who do, and that's where our
position is. Okay. Now, Psalms 3 -- you know they're
increased, Psalms 4 they turn the glory into shame,
Psalms 5 -- not stand in the judgment, Psalms 6, you
understand that when you're reading the Psalms, always
read them in the light of what?
BRAD AND KEVIN: The seven seals.
DAVID: The judgment.
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yeah.
DAVID: Now, that's where you get your first
seal and that, that is your strength. Now, there's a
lot of things in the Psalms like I haven't showed you
as of yet, but hey, you know, Psalms 40, I come in the
volume of the book. You all got that, you all got that
down solid, don't you.
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want the simple laws of God, based in love, one towards
his neighbor, then God will cast him amongst the _
heathens who have no laws of love, but yet they have to
have tons and tons and tons of laws because there --
these are so evil. You know, you know, Kevin, working
in the, in the system you worked in, that you know how
many laws there are, don't you?
KEVIN: Plenty.
DAVID: I mean, there's so many -- there's
more -- look, the Bible's got ten commandments. But
the, but the world -- the nations of men, they have
thousands of commandments, don't they?
x1-:vm= Right.
DAVID: Because everybodys out to get
everybody else, aren't they? That's what Habakkuk
says, right? Okay, now. Let's get back into the
details now. So, Israel and Judah were finally given a
king. They wanted a king and God gave them Saul,
right?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now, Saul at the beginning was a good
king until he became arrogant and proud. So then he
became oppressive, didn't he? He began to gather up
the men of Israel for his wars, he began to take the
daughters of Judah, he began to build up his own riches
and all that and build up his own palace and he became1
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arrogant and he got to where he wouldn't listen to God
through Samuel. So God destroyed him. And this is an
example for all men and all nations. God knows to
abase the proud. Now, we know that Saul first caused
Israel to fall into sin and that when a king or any
person is given power over others -- provide an example
of evil, then all of a sudden people want to be like
that king. For instance, when Israel was in Egypt,
their ideal of freedom was to be like the Egyptians,
correct?
BRAD AND KEYIN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Poor man wants to be like the rich
man, right?
That's right. KEVIN:
DAVID: Although the poor man will complain
that the rich man oppresses him.
KEVIN: That's right.
DAVID: And we don't want to make the mistake
to think that God's going to remove the wicked of the
earth so that we can be put in their place to be wicked
like them. If that's the way it's going to be, if
Israel wants to be like the Gentiles, why remove the
Gentiles? Why remove the heathen for if Israel wants
to be like them. Why put heathen back in the place of
the heathen? That's bad, isn't it?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
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DAVID: Okay. So, we, we don't want to do
that. So, now, how are we going to be able to stop,
knowing that we ourselves are heathen at heart?
Knowing that we ourselves are no better than they?
That's the whole New Testament, Jew and Gentile -- I
mean, the Jews are just as bad as the Gentiles
according to nature. We have the same hunger, the same
thirst, the same desires, we make up the same stories,
we all have the same bad attitudes, everyones cranky
in the morning just like everybody else.
BRAD AND KEVIN: Um-hum. . ,,
DAVID: When, when, when a Jew who professes
godliness sees a woman that's beautiful, he has the
same thoughts go through his mind as the Playboy
Gentile has, correct?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Um-hum.
DAVID: And there's no cover-up, there's no
tradition, there's no ritual that can deny that. And
that's what the New Testament is trying to tell us.
Okay, now King Saul in his day was arrogant, proud,
nasty, just like the nations around him, so God finally
destroyed him and rose up David. Now, David himself
even had troubles, but David was inspired of God and
David made the prophecies. He wrote the Psalms that
God had told him to write, and the prophecies and the
Psalms all talk of a time when a righteousness one
jr' Andy 13
would be revealed. When a, when a king will be
imersed in Israel who will be ultimately righteous,
which we know is Christ.
that we know that this Christ is the
prime subject of the New Covenant, which totally
reveals men should fight against their natural
tendencies, their flesh, their lust. Men should fight
against this natural evil that's within their hearts.
But on their own they can't do it. They can only do it
by a knowledge of God through who?
_ KEVIN:
DAVID
be given to men
continuum in my
the truth shall
free by keeping
keep laws breakChrist.
Exactly. So, the final knowledge to
being the seven seals, which is the
doctrine ye shall know the truth and
set you free. See, people want to be
laws, but hey, those who profess to
the laws so they find themselves in
bondage. But the free gift is that by truth, the law
came by Moses, grace and truth comes by Christ, the
truth of this time is to set us free, and that's what
we was looking at last night. How will we, in this
situation being under the mandate and of commandments
oi the laws of men, how will we be made free? Okay.
Now, let's go back to Micah, Micah 1, let's review real
quick.
BRAD AND KEVIN: Okay.
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DAVID: Micah, being contemporary with
Isaiah, you already know what Isaiah teaches,
especially 1 to 6 -- he/she from man and all that.
BRAD AND KEVIN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Micah had foretold, and this is in
verse 2, Micah's message - remember, hear all ye
people, hearken O earth and all that is therein.
Remember, his message is not just for the Jews, is it?
BRAD AND KEVIN: N0.
DAVID: No, his message, his message is to be
herald, he claims, to all that's in the earth and his
message is, let the Lord God be witness against you,
the Lord from his holy what?
BRAD AND xsvm= Temple.
DAVID: Now, that temple is where?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Heaven.
DAVID: In heaven. See, the prophets that
were -- that spoke of these days illuminated their
message because if God's going to punish his people,
Israel, he's going to likewise punish the Gentiles,
isn't he?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: Now, the prophecy shows, for, behold,
the Lord cometh forth out of his place, and will come
down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And
the mountains shall be molten under him and the valleys
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shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the
waters that are poured down a steep place. You know
what Zephaniah teaches and Isaiah teaches. You already
know all this, over and over, the sixth seal. Right?
And we're coming to that pretty soon, aren't we?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yeah.
DAVID: Okay. You already know about this.
but the part that we had trouble with is that when this
all started, guys, you know, I've been teaching you all
these months, you know, you know, there's a lot of
people made some mistakes, didn't they?
BRAD AND KEDIN: Yes. Right.
DAVID: And God is, God is not going to
vindicate us if we make the same carnal, selfish
mistakes that the world daily flaunts themselves in. I
mean we're looking for higher things. We're looking
for things that, that are complete in God. We want out
of here. We want to get off this little ball, don't
we?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right, David.
DAVID: With God. We want to go from here to
a place of freedom where we're no longer in bondage to
the flesh, our stupidity, our good looks. We want to
get away from the guy in the mirror, don't we? Okay
now. Now, pay attention. Why does the prophet
proclaim that God's going to come down and God's going
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to do a lot of stamping and a lot of burning and a lot
of anger's going to be administered? Why is it? _We1l,
for the transgression of what? -
, BRAD AND KEVIN: Jacob.
DAVID: Is all this and for the sins of the
house of Israel. Well, now, it doesn't say for the
sins of the Gentiles, does it?
BRAD AND KEVIN: No.
DAVID: It doesn't say for the sins of the,
of the heathen. This is for the sins of God's people.
Now, remember, Micah saw this vision -- the period of
the four kings, Josiah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah.
Now, what is the transgression of Jacob? Is it not
Samaria? Now, Samaria was the capital of the ten
tribes. Now, remember, you've learned that the only
reason why the ten tribes separated from the two tribes
of Judah and Benjamin is because in the days of
Solomon, Solomon overtaxed the people, didn't he?
saw AND xsvzm Right.
DAVID: I mean, he basically was bankrupting
his nation to fill his treasure chest, wasn't he?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: And to build all those nice buildings
for his pagan wives. Okay? So God punished Solomon so
that in the time of Rehoboam, his son, God foretold
that because of this crime and overtaxing the people of
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Israel, that God would allow the ten tribes to be
separated from the two tribes and so Judah -- well,
Jacob was another name for Judah, Judah had brought it
upon himself, because God had allowed the kingship to
be from Judah and they overtaxed the people. And what
are the high places of Judah? Are they not Jerusalem.
I mean Solomon in his day and all the kings
of Judea tried to really make Jerusalem a metropolis,
didn't they? Adorning it with riches and glory and
honor, but their heart was lacking the knowledge of God
and instead of trying show God and God's truth and
benevolence to the world, they were trying to build up
and exalt their own little empire, weren't they?
Therefore, will I make Samaria as a heap of a field,
and as plantings of a vineyard and I will pour down the
stones thereof into the valley and I will discover the
foundations thereof. Didn't God destroy the ten
tribes?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yes.
DAVID: With the Assyrian, right? Took them
into -- captivity. Scattered the ten tribes amongst
the nations and all the graven images, which were their
idols, thereof shall be beaten to pieces and all the
hires thereof shall be burned with a fire and all idols
thereof will I lay desolate, for she gathered it of the
hire of a harlot and they shall return to the hire of a
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1 harlot. Man cannot go by his carnal senses and serve
922 God, can he? The laws of God will always teach men
3 what is right to do and it will always be against our
_ 4 feelings, right?
s ; BRAD AND KEVIN: Yep.Qv . "
3' L 6I DAVID: Remember, guys, when we used to go
7 out to the restaurant?
8 BRAD AND KEVIN: Um-hum.
9 DAVID: All you can eat?
10 BRAD AND KEVIN: Yep.
11 DAVID: Remember we learned in Scripture that
12 drunkenness is more than just alcohol. Anything we do
13 in excess is drunkenness, isn't it?
I
k 14 BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
15 DAVID: So, before we came to the knowledge
16 of the truth, we'd go out and eat all we could eat,
17 till we'd eat till where we'd bust, right?
18 BRAD AND KEVIN: Uhhuh.
19 DAVID: The Scripture condemns that, doesn't
20 it? _
21 BRAD AND KEVIN: It sure does.
22 DAVID: It overtaxes the stomach, which
_ 23. overtaxes the mind. It takes blood from the brain.
" 24 You know, people eat too much, they get real tired and
25 sluggish and, and sleepy. All right. These things are
wrong. It's called drunkenness by Scripture. Esau was
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I 1 a drunkard. It's all he cared about was eating and
92 2 drinking. Okay. So the thing of it is is that a
3 harlot makes her hire by giving something sensual as a
_ 4 merchandise, selling herself through lust and God's
5 people can't do that.
Q§- ~ 92 7_-.,r' 6 Okay. This is a part of idolatry. People _
7 ithat are of the flesh strictly move by their feelings
8 and we can't do this. We got to go by what God tells
9 us. Now, here's the thing. Micah says, therefore I
10 will wail and howl. I will go stripped and naked, I
11 will make a wailing like the dragons, and a mourning
12 ,like as the doves sic!. He, he's, he's, he's upset,
13 isn't he. For her wound, Israel's wound, is incurable,
[ 14 for it is come unto Judah. What is this wound? He is
15 come to the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem. Now,
16 the people of God_are just like the heathen, aren't
17 they?
1e BRAD AND xsvnn Right.
19 DAVID: They're sensual, they're devilish,
20 they want to do their own thing. So who does God send
21 to the gates of Judah? The king of who? '
22 mum AND xsvzm Assyria?
23 DAVID: "The king of Assyria. As long as
24' God's people want to be like the heathen, who will God
' 25 allow to rule over them?
BRAD AND KEVIN: The --
1
20
DAVID: The heathen. Okay. Declare ye if
not at Gath, weep ye not at all at the house of Aphrah,
roll thyself in the dust. I mean, all these cities
that we're talking about here were overthrown by the
Assyrians. Pass ye away thou inhabitants of Saphir,
having thy shame naked; the inhabitant of Zaanan came y
not forth into the mourning of Bethezel. He shall
receive you of his standing. In other words, the
prophets sees that these cities are being overthrown by
the Assyrian, you know, Sennacherib and, and all these
kings of Assyria, and when the king would overthrow an
empire, they would have to give him taxes. They would
have to give him gifts, receive you his standing.
For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully
for good, but evil came down from the Lord into the
gate of Jerusalem. So, really, who sent the Assyrian
to overthrow Jerusalem?
BRAD AND KEVIN: God.
DAVID: God did. O thou inhabitant of
Lachish, bind the chariot to the swift beast; she is
the beginning of the sin of the daughter of Zion, for
the transgressions of Israel were found in thee. So
the idolatry of the heathen becomes the idolatry of
Israel, and therefore defeats the purpose of God, of
even having an Israel.
Therefore, shall thou give presents to924
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Moreshethgath, the houses of Achzib shall be a lie to
the kings of Israel. In other words, this is one of
the kings of Assyria. Yet I will bring an heir unto
thee O inhabitant of Mareshah. He shall come to
Adullam the glory of Israel. Now, wait a minute. The
Assyrian, being able to overthrow Judah, it's a crime.
But God says that an heir is to be raised up and he
comes where? To Adullam. Well, what was Adullam? Do
you all guys remember?
BRAD AND KEVIN: It was a place where David
hid in the caves?
U DAVID: Exactly. Exactly. David of old,
when God had anointed him to take the kingdom there was
a crisis. Saul had taken the kingdom and would not
listen to God any longer, nor would listen to Samuel.
Now, when Saul realized that God had raised up another
king, Saul was fighting against David and David had to
hide out for a while, didn't he?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay. Just like in the latter days
But everyone who has a knowledge to see and eyes to see
and ears to hear. Everyone who knows that God sits on
a throne in heaven, everyone who knows that God has a
book in his right hand, knows that the one who receives
that book is called by Scripture the Prince of thewe're fixing to find that this prophecy progresses.
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Kings of the Earth. Right? A prince is the one who's
next in line to the kingdom, isn't he? Okay." Now, I
this heir is going to be the glory of Israel. Right?
I Make thee bald and poll thee for thy delicate
children, enlarge thy baldness as the eagle, for they
are gone into captivity from thee. Now, Israel and
Judah, going into captivity, as well as the heathen
nations are all going to be overthrown by Assyria and
we find out that God begins to explain certain woes
that we should not do. It says, woe to them that
devise iniquity and work evil upon their beds; when the
morning is light; they practice it because it is in the
power of their hand.
There are men who have authority who- if they
want something, they have power to get it. It says,
they covet fields, and take them by violence. I mean,
isn't that what war is all about? When one nation
wants a property from another nation, how do they get
it?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Take it by violence.
DAVID: By violence. And they take houses
and take them away so they oppress a man and his house,
even a man and his heritage. This is how the nations
of Babylon overthrew Judah and Israel and all the other
nations. It's the way Medo-Persians overthrew Babylon.
It's the way the Greeks overthrew Medo-Persia. It's
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the Romans overthrew Grecia. It's the way the
split up in the days of Europe and war has been
them ever since. It's even the way that
overthrew the American Indian and took this
land, isn't it? ,
God says, woe to them. Now, people that
enter the war trying to get gain don't realize that
God's pronounced a woe, but nonetheless Micah says that
the lesson is for all the earth and all that dwell
therein. Like Revelation 13 tells us that even though
man does not acknowledge it, it says he that liveth by
the sword must die by the sword, right? Okay.
Now, in that day shall one take up a parable
against you, okay? It says here, therefore, thus saith
the Lord, behold, against this family do I devise an
evil from which ye shall not remove your necks, neither
shall ye go haughty, for this time is evil. What kind
of family are we talking about here? Guys?
BRAD AND KEVIN: I give up.
DAVID: Well, who are they who covet fields
and take them by violence?
all theBRAD AND KEVIN: The Babylonians, Assyrians.
DAVID: Well, okay. But how far does that go
way back. You heard the mark of the beast,
remember?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Uh-huh.
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DAVID: - in Daniel 7 that these empires who
shall rise and fall are like unto the beast of the
field. It's nature, isn't it? who was the first
murderer?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Cain.
DAVID: Cain. Cain. Cain coveted something,
didn't he?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yep.
DAVID: Cain wanted a blessing but he didn't
get it. Why?
QM BRAD AND KEVIN: He wouldn't listen to God.
DAVID: But who did listen.
BRAD AND KEVIN: Abel.
DAVID: Abel got the blessing, didn't he?
Made Cain mad. So, Cain wanted it so what did Cain do
to Abel? '
BRAD AND KEVIN: Killed him.
DAVID: By violence, right? And so God
placed a mark upon Cain and that -- remember, the
simple stories of Scripture, the stories of individuals
become the stories of the nature of whole nations.
It's like Germans that in Germany, I mean, they wanted
to be a superior race. They wanted to conquer the
world. They wanted to, to, to take away lives of men
and they wanted to take away lives of women and
children. All because they wanted to be a superior
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and have dominion. But it came, it came to
naught, didn't it? Okay. 1 " '
Now, watch. So this evil family is, is the
family which all the way back to the Book of Genesis
states the enmity between the dragon's seed and the
woman's seed. We know
who hear God's counsel
of the woman. Right?
not the will of God orthat those who obey God, those
from his temple, are of the seed
The spirit. And those who know
of the seed, of the devil. Now,
you guys know we were here minding our own business,
doing our own thing. Right?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: And you all know we've always sought
after peace, but you also already know what Nahum
teaches and all that.
left
told
will
thatBRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: You know, you know that God has not
us with our behinds uncovered, right? But like I
you all these months and all these years, the day
come. Remember when I showed you that film?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: Remember it said on -- they showed on
badge oi the ATP, it just said 666.
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yep.
DAVID: Now, remember that number -- well,
anyway we won't -- I don't want to give that
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information over the phone, but remember in all the
things that you were shown, hey, did I lie to you? Did
it happen or not?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yes, it did.
DAVID: Right? See, everything is on stage,
but even though everything that I've shown you over
these months is come to pass to the very letter,
nonetheless, we made a mistake. A
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: Now, now, you don't have to worry
about man and man's judgment. We got to make it right
with the Father, don't we? God is not a respecter of
persons. Right? It's an individual thing. Now, so we
know that this nature of man who covets fields and
takes them by violence and houses and take them away,
they oppress a man, even a man and his heritage,
therefore, they said, Lord, against this family did I
devise an evil from which ye shall not remove your
necks.
Neither shall ye go haughty for this time is
evil. It's an evil time. In that day shall one take
up a parable against you and lament with a doleful
lamentation, and say, we be utterly spoiled. He has
changed the portion of my people. How hath he removed
it from me. Turning aside, he's divided our fields.
In other words, somebody gets their land taken away,
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don't they?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: By somebody who thinks they have the
power to do it, right?
A BRAD AND xsvm= Right.
DAVID: Therefore, shalt thou have none that
shall cast a cord by lot in the congregation of the
Lord. For those who take away this property, those who
take away by violence and take away a man -- from a man
his heritage, God says they're going where? To heaven?
BRAD AND xsyxm No.
DAVID: Going where?
BRAD AND KEVIN: To hell.
DAVID: To hell. Now, we know that Micah's
prophecy is one of the ones that sealed till the time
of the end. Now, we know that the tactics being used
against us was definitely like Nahum says in all the
prophets we've been showing you. The tactic of
violence. I mean, you know, properties being destroyed
and all this. But you know that the individuals that
we're now to deal with do not want us to try to open to
their understanding the prophecies, do they?
BRAD AND KEVIN: No.
DAVID: So, naturally the one who takes up
the parable we already know from other testaments is
the heir. The heir who comes to Adullam, the glory of
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Jacob is the spirit of the
do they got God tied up in
I BRAD AND xsvxm
DAVID: No. Are
BRAD AND KEVIN:
DAVID: Yeah. Ii
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that are named the house of
Lord straightened? I mean,
a chair somewherel
No.
these his doings?
Yes.
mean, God allows the heathen
to rule over his people when his people do things like
the what?
BRAD AND KEVIN:
.- DAVID:. Lik theHeathens.
heathen. Do not my words do
good to him that walketh uprightly? I mean, you know,
we got to realize something here.
like them, then it's goingIf we're going to be
to be a dog-eat-dog world.
Even of late my people is risen up as an enemy. Ye
pull off the robe with the
by securely as men averse from war.
people have ye cast out ofgarment from them that pass
The women of my
their pleasant houses, from
their children have ye taken away my glory forever.
Now, we know what the, we know what the glory is, don't
we?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yes.
DAVID: The one who comes to Adullam, which
is the seed of David, right? Psalms 45? Arise ye and
depart for this is not your rest because it is
polluted. It will destroy you with a sore destruction.
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receive any good thing from God until they start being
good. We don't want to be like the heathen. And when
we decide that we're going to be separate and distinct
from the heathen, then God will restore to us the
promises that I've been showing you all these months
and years.
Now, it says, I will surely assemble, O
Jacob, all of thee. I will surely gather the remnant
of Israel, I will put them together as the sheep of
Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold, they
shall be great -e make a great noise by reason of the
multitude of men. Now, the breaker is come up before
them. Who is it come up before Judah?
BRAD AND KEVIN: The Assyrian.
DAVID: Ihe Assyrian. Now, what beast
according to Daniel is called the one who breaks in
pieces?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Bear?
DAVID: Nope. The fourth beast, break in
pieces and devoured.
BRAD AND KEVIN: Dragon.
DAVID: Right. Okay? They have broken up,
they've passed through the gate. They're gone out by
it and their king shall pass before them and the Lord
on the head of them. Now, remember the prophet is
talking about an event that all the earth should know
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about. We know in the days of Hezekiah, when the
Assyrian came, the Assyrian was not allowed to enter
into the gates of Jerusalem, were they? The Angel of
the Lord destroyed 185,000 of them, right? But we know
in the time of Christ, that hrist by Rome was allowed
to be taken outside the gate of the city and crucified
on Golgotha, right? Remember that? Are you guys with
me?
DRAD AND KEVIN: Yes.
DAVID: Okay. And I said, hear, I pray you,
O heads of Jacob and ye princes of the house of Israel.
Is it not for you to know judgment? I mean, is Israel
supposed to know the prophecies? Are they supposed to
be ignorant like the heathen, or are they supposed to
know aforetime what God's will is?
BRAD AND KEVIN: They're supposed to know.
DAVID: They're supposed to know. Israel,
who is in idolatry, cannot know. Micah is sent to
proclaim to the people of God that the Assyrian comes
only because of their own sins and that the evil of, of
desiring, the covetness, of wanting to take away land
by violence, and wanting to take away a man's heritage
by means of force, God condemns it. Okay. The
statement is, is that Micah wants to know if Israel is
not supposed to know judgment.
who hate the good and love the evil, who
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pluck off their skin from off them and their flesh from
off their bones. Who also eat the flesh of my people
and flay their skin from off them and break their bones
and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, as flesh for
the caldron. Well, we'd already learned earlier that
the sin of Jacob was Samaria. In other words, one
thing that the Judean kingdom did to its people was it
overtaxed them, wasn't it.
You know, it's, it's funny like in every
nation this happens is that the nations, the political
powers end up taking the people so much to where
actually the people end up doing nothing but for
working for their governments. Right? So, you know,
America, America doesn't just do it. It's been done
since the beginning of time. So, then shall they cry
unto the Lord, but he will not hear them for he will
even hide his face from them at that time, as they have
behaved themselves ill in their doings.
Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets
that make my people err, that bite with their teeth and
cry, peace, and he hath put not in their mouth, even
they prepare war against him. So you know how a lot of
people even today are all saying the peace, peace,
peace. God's going to come. Peace, peace. Right?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But you guys know in the seal that
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1 I've shown you. There's only peace for those who what?
2 BRAD AND xsvm= Know --
3 DAVID: Know the truth, right? Therefore,
4 night shall be unto you that ye shall not have a vision
5 hand it shall be dark to you and you shall not divine.
6 The sun shall go down over the prophets and the day
7 shall be dark over them. Then shall the seers be
8 ashamed and the diviners confounded. Yea, they shall
9 even cover their lips for there is no answer of God.
10 But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the Lord
11 and of judgment and of might to declare unto Jacob, his
12 transgression and to Israel his sin. Hear this, I
13h pray, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of
the house of Israel that abhor judgment and pervert all
15 equity. They build up Zion with blood and Jerusalem
16 with iniquity. The heads thereof judge for what?
17 BRAD AND KEVIN: Reward.
18 DAVID: In other words, hey. Were the judges
19 of Israel supposed to make big money off the judgments?
20 BRAD AND KEVIN: No.
21 DAVID: No, but that's what they were doing.
22 Like the heathen do that, don't they?
23 JOHN: Hey, David.
24 DAVID: The priests -- teach for hire.
25 JOHN: David.
_ DAVID: Yes.
0 I x8
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JOHN: This is John. Can you hear me? t
DAVID: Yeah . H
JOHN: Do you know how much longer you'll
need for the lesson? The, the reason I ask is we've
got a call on another line and -- from the Sheriff's
Office and they've got to use that facility for
something else. Much longer?
DAVID: Well, probably about, probably about
30 minutes or so-
I JOHN: Well, I think that's going to present
a problem, you know, because you --
DAVID: Well, can, can they call me back?
DICK: Hey, David? -
DAVID: Yes.
DICK: This is Dick. Frankly, we're using
Sheriff Harwell's office and their renovation up here
and they've got some folks that need to do some work in
here and the sheriff was kind enough to let us use his
office in his absence and we kind of tried to make an
agreement with him that we would try to get, get out of
here by about, by about 7:30, 7:35.
DAVID: What time is it now there, Dick?
DICK: I've got about 7:20.
DAVID: Okay. Just let me have a few more
minutes with these guys.
DICK: Okay. That's good.
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DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: Okay. Thanks, David.
DAVID: Okay, guys, look.
JOHN: Thank you.
DAVID: Are you there?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yes, we are.
DAVID: Are you there?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yes. We are, David.
DAVID:_ Okay. Look, we know in verse 12,
Zion is plowed for your sake. We know God's punished
the Jews and the -- by the Assyrians, by the
Babylonians, Medo~Persians, Greeks, Romans. In the
days of Christ, Matthew 23, Matthew 23, Christ says, O
Jerusalem, that which stoneth the prophets. We already
know all that, right? How often I would have gathered
you and you would not. The problem's with Israel,
isn't it?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: Chapter 4, what's going to happen in
the last days, though. What's the promise there?
BRAD AND KEVIN: God is going to set up his
kingdom. '
DAVID: The kingdom's going to be set up. We
know according to Daniel 4, in the days of defeat,
we're already here. The rock -- the Father is coming
now, right? He's going to get rid of all these leaders
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37
and all these empires, right? And we know that in
verse 5 of 4 all people who walk, everyone in the name
of what? His god. And we, we who've been learning in
Micah and the prophecies, right? Will walk in the name
of our god for how long?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Ever and ever.
DAVID: Okay. So in verse 7, those who halt
are made a remnant, aren't they? They're going to make
a strong nation._ Now, we're at the part here in verses
10, be in pain and labor to bring forth, O daughter of
Zion. Right? For now thou shalt go forth in the city
and thou shalt dwell in the field and go even to
Babylon. The church went into Babylon, didn't it?
BRADAND KEVIN: Yes. V
DAVID: Now, remember, always remember, in
Daniel that Babylon is not just the nation of
Nebuchadnezzar. Babylon is the whole overall image,
the head of gold, the arms of silver, the legs of brass
-- I mean, excuse me, the belly of brass, the legs of
iron, the feet part of iron, part of clay. These are
the only dominions that my Father in heaven is going to
allow to rule over Israel. So you've got to remember
that. We have the preeminence, not them. Now, let me
finish this real quick over here. Okay. In chapter 5,
when it says to gather in troop 0 daughter of troops.
He has laid seeds against us.
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Now, this prophecy, this prophecy is for the
latter days, from Chapter 4 all the way out to the last
days. Now, this is where we're at. I mean, we're,
we're under siege, aren't we?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: Now, they shall smite the judge of
Israel with a rod upon the cheek. Now, we know the
Father judges no men, but gave all judgment to who?
BRAD AND KEVIN: The Lamb.
DAVID: And the Lamb's going to judge the
world, not by their deeds, but by whether they want
truth or not, right? But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah,
thou be little under the
thee shall he come forth
Israel.thousands of Judah, yet out of
unto me that is to be ruler in
Now, we know that from Bethlehem comes
Mashiach, came Christ, right? And that Christ went to
heaven, didn't he? And that same Christ, the Father
gave him a what?
BRAD AND KEVIN: BOOk. '
DAVID: And they don't know that yet, do
they? They -- can reveal the seals? Okay. Right?
Okay. Therefore will he
which she travaileth and
the period of time we're
continue to read, alwaysgive them up until the time
brought forth. Now, this is
in right now. So when you
keep your eyes on the seventh
9 9 ,
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chapter of Micah. That seventh chapter, that's where
-- the period we're in now is the - as it was in
Moses day coming out of the land of Egypt, you know,
always remember. In, in Micah 7, the best of them,
verse 4, is as a brier, and the most upright sharper
than a thorn hedge, right? Do you see what we're
saying? See verse 7 there?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yeah.
DAVID:_ Therefore will I look unto the what?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Lord.
DAVID: I will wait for the god of my what?
BRAD AND KEVIN: My god will hear me.
DAVID: Okay. And that, that Father is the
one who's been showing you all of these things, right?
BRAD AND KEVIN: Right.
DAVID: Okay. it says, when 1 fall, I shall
arise, when I sit in darkness, the Lords shall be a
light unto me. I will bear the indignation of the Lord
because I've sinned against who? Now, you guys know
what you've done.
BRAD AND KEVIN: Yep.
DAVID: Now, these guys on the outside, they
don't know nothing of what you all have learned and
they'll look at you and you're just simple people and
you can't oratate sic! like me or Steve, but the thing
of it is, we know who she is in verse 10. It's our
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enemy, don't we. That image in Daniel,
mystery, the wine cup of the world, the
adultery, those who know not the Lord.
that day he comes to thee from Assyria,40
that woman, the
spirit of
In verse 12, in
from the
fortified cities. Okay. Keep these things in your
mind. Do you have any questions real qu
have to go?ick before I
BRAD AND KEVIN: No, you said about it.
DAVID: Huh?
BRAD AND KEVIN: I can't think
off-hand, David.
DAVID: Okay. That seventh ch
you read Zephaniah and Nahum and all tha
this final controversy over those seals.of any right
apter and when
t, remember
Now, you know
the seals. Don't share that with anybody. Keep that
to yourself. Just keep your eyes looking to the seals
and realize, you know, like I say, this
benefit. This is your faith towards God
coming. You know that.
. BRAD AND KEVIN: Yeah.
DAVID: And at the proper time
a lot faster than what science will tell
anyway, so just, just hold onto that and
go for now, okay? We got to get, we got
more people here straightened out becaus
to be sending some more people out.is for your
and the star's
it'll speed up
you. So
we'll let you
to get some
e we're going-
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