Waco FBI Transcripts Tapes 007.x - 009.x Part 73

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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #7
3/1/93

2
DAVID: -- was too old, right?
JIM: Right.
DAVID: Okay, God had promised, hadn't he?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: well, who do you think was the one --
JIM: Hey, David, wait one second. I'm sorry
to interrupt you. Has Sita already left?
DAVID: Sita left? Sita left?
see, make sure Sita's left. we've got toGo check and
get this
underway. Well, anyway, we're checking on that now.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Anyway, Lois got pregnant and guess
who got the blame, Jim?
JIM: Who?
DAVID: Me. Now, this shows
beings think, okay?
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: First of all, here I
old, and here I am giving Lois and all
studies about the power of God and theyou how human
was 22, 23 years
these people
mystery of
divinity. And Lois gets pregnant. Okay, now, what
happened was that a lot of people rose up. There was
originally branches. It was really Davidians, right?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: And they accused me of going to bed
with her and they accused her of goingto bed with me.

Q O
3
And this woman was very homely and 70 years old. You
know what I mean?
JIM: Yeah. Yeah, I do.
DAVID: And so what happened was is that I
said now, listen, there's a truth you've got to deal
with here. I says your accusations against me, let's
evaluate this. I says what if I did go to bed with
her? And she has conceived a child, and she doesn't
even have any seed. I says you better watch out your
accusations. Out of one side of your mouth you say you
believe in God, that God created a child in the womb of
Sarah. On the other side of your mouth you're saying
that if you're Lois your a prophet  Indiscernible! it
has to be from me that somebody's been doing naughty
stuff. Okay? _
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: They're crazy, aren't they?
. JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: You know, a miracle would take place
if a 70-year-old woman could have a baby, wouldn't it?
JIM: Right. I, I guess so, yeah.
DAVID: See? Well, no one should have blamed
me. On the contrary, they should have prayed to God.
Okay. So what happened was all hell broke loose, and
hat's when George Roden got into the scene.
JIM: Right.

4
DAVID: And he came in and he's waving around
a .357 Reuger, a Nighthawk or a Magnum. And he was
telling people he was going to blow my balls off and he
was going to, you know, all this kind of stuff.
JIM: Hey, David?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: They got the kids and they're on the
way. So, go ahead and get your next two.
DAVID: Okie doke.
JIM: And I think you said it was Scott and
Chrissy?
DAVID: Okay. So, that's Scott and Chrissy
now? Scott and Chrissy? Jim, could you do us a favor?
JIM: sure. what do you need? .
DAVID: Could you get our line open again to
where we could call the radio station again?
JIM: I, I can see, David.
_ DAVID: They shut us off.
JIM: Yeah. I'll tell you, I'll be straight
up with you. I, I can see, but I don't hold that much
hope because there's so much, you know, the commanders
have to work on it. I'll tell you, there's a billion
reporters out here. I mean, I think they've got every
phone line tied up plus, a lot of times, you know --
DAVID: What's happened is they just, they
just disconnected our line to where we can only call

5
you.
JIM: Yeah. Okay.
DAVID: So, you know --
JIM: Well, I'll see what I can do. I'll
give you an honest word. I'll see what I can do, but -
DAVID: Are they still going to play that
message?
JIM: What message? Oh, yeah, play the
message on the radio station?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah. Okay, let me, let me get that
taken care of.
DAVID: Okay.
» JIM: Is Phil out there  Indiscernible!? If
I need him, I'll send him in. Yeah, okay.  Talking to
someone else.! The problem with the telephone, David,
is like this is really a normal procedure, you know, to
keep a -- keep the lifeline going, you know, between
you and me.
DAVID: Yeah, but our other lines have been
cut off.
JIM: Oh, okay. Yeah, I understand. I
understand. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me see if --
David.
DAVID: Yeah?

6
JIM: Hold on just a second.
DAVID: Where's my -- where's little Koresh
at?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You've got all
four kids in that house?
JIM: No, I've got two kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:  transition.
 Unidentified voices in background not discernible.!
JIM: Hey, David.
DAVID: Huh?
JIM: I need you to help me out on this.
DAVID: Go ahead.
JIM: Okay. The commanders got, got the two
kids and they want to change this room I'm in. You
know, I've got to move because I'm in this little bitty
room and I don't have any room, and I've got all these
people in here. And so what they wanted me to do is
move across the way. I'm out at the airport. You know
where the airport is?
DAVID: Right, yeah.
JIM: And they want me to move across to this
other building where there's more room, you know, and
it'll be quiet.
DAVID: What's your number?
JIM: They'll do -- I'll call you with it and
tell you, you know, no problem. But what I'd like to

7
do before we take a break is just to, you know, get
those other two kids ready and, you know, send another
car and get that. And then maybe we could take a
little break, and then once I get to the new place,
I'll get back with you.
DAVID: Okay. Are they going to -- well,
like you say, then when the next car comes, can they,
can they bring us in new lines so we don't get cut off
as much?
JIM: Yeah, I'm working on that. I'm working
on that. Yeah, I want to work on it. I'll see what I
can do for you.
DAVID: Okay. Now, now, now, now, remember,
I gave $1,000 to those guys, and I want you to get that
$1,000.
JIM: Oh, hey, don't worry about it.
DAVID: Jim, you've got to -- I'm serious.
JIM: Hey, let me give  you got a pencil?
I'm going to give you this new phone number.
DAVID: Okay. Hey, Rach, Rachel, could you
take a, take a note pad and a piece of paper? I've got
a number for you? Where's the pencil?
JIM:  Unidentified male voice in background
not discernible.! Really?
DAVID: Where's the pad with - do you see
it?

Q Q
JIM: Can we work that,
 Talking to someone else.!
DAVID: Did you get the
are, take -- put it on that there
pad.  Talking to someone else.!
JIM: It's 799 --
DAVID: Seven nine
JIM: - 0545.
DAVID: - oh five
JIM: Okay?
DAVID: Seven nine
JIM: Oh five four
DAVID: - oh fivenine
four
nine
five
four8
we can help?
- okay, here you
- put it on that
What is it now, Jim?
five.
five.
JIM: Now, I'll call you first, okay? And
so  until we know it's clear.
DAVID: Okay. All right
JIM: We're going to send the other car to
the water tower.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay, so, can you get Scott and
Chrissy?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Cause what I don't want to happen is
they're switching my room and we're in the middle of --
and the kids, you know, cause I've got to kind of, you
know, get off for a few minutes.

Q Q
DAVID: Okay, will do.
JIM: So tell --
DAVID: Call me up as soon
there.
JIM: Yeah, but let's hang
these other two kids in the car, and
we'll get off, okay? 'Cause  yeah
who have you got there, Sonja?
DAVID: Probably. They're
JIM: Oh, Sita's not back?
DAVID: No.9
as the car gets
on until we get
then we'll, then
You've got --
not back yet.
JIM: Okay. All right, let, let, let me, let
me call you in a minute.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: I need to, I need to work this out with
the commanders 'cause I, I want to, you know, I want
 Indiscernible! kids in the driveway
ought to talk, you know.
DAVID:
JIM: I
You know what I'm
down the driveway
DAVID: Oh, okay.
JIM: You know what I mean
DAVID: Okay.and you and me
Kids in the driveway?
mean I don't want that to happen.
saying? I don't want Sita walking
and we're not on the phone.
JIM: And we have the two children. They're

10
on their way here safely, okay?
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: And I'll just - we'll just break off
for a few minutes -- '
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: - then I'll get back with you.
DAVID: Okay. Bye, Jim.
JIM: Okay, Buddy, I'll see you.
* * * *
JIM: Do we have transportation over there?
Do we have transportation to - no, we're going to get
them over two kids out first, aren't we?
DAVID: Good afternoon. May I help you?
Hello?
iiii
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello?
JIM: Hello, Yvette?
- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Huh?
JIM: This is Jim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay, wait one
moment. Do you want to speak to David?
I JIM: Yeah, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: How you doing, Buddy?
DAVID: It's a miracle. _

11
JIM: Have you got those other kids ready?
DAVID: Are the kids ready? Chrissy and
who's next? Chrissy and Scott.
JIM: Chrissy and Scott, yeah.
DAVID: Got to - were you calling from the
new number?
JIM: No, not yet. I'm going to get  move
over there in a few minutes. I wanted to get this done
first.
DAVID: Are they sending -- oh. Are they
playing the message on the radio?  Unidentified male
voice in background not discernible.!
JIM: He's talking to one of his buds, asked
him if they played the message on the radio.
 Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.! Yeah, yeah. Could you tell me what time
they're going to do the movement, so I can tell him --
 Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.! Okay.
DAVID: who? What? My grandmother? Turn it
on. .
JIM: He thinks his grandmother is on the
radio or the TV or something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOICE: Yeah.
DAVID: Did you hear that, Jim?
JIM: No, I didn't, David.

- 12
DAVID: My grandmother is on an interview.
JIM: Where?
DAVID: I'm trying to get the details. I was
always told by my family that, that I'm kind of
strange.
JIM: Where's your grandmother live?
DAVID: She lives down in Chandler.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Chandler's close to Tyler.
JIM: Yeah, yeah, I know where it is. That's
pretty country over there.
DAVID: Oh, yeah. I love that country. I
used to fish on Lake Tyler --
JIM: Oh, did you? Yeah. They've got a
little train runs down that way.
DAVID: How do you spell your last name
again, Jim?
JIM: C-A-V - C-A-V --
DAVID: All right, just a second. C --
JIM: -- A-V --
DAVID: Wait a minute. The pen just died on
me. Looks like a brand-new one, too.
JIM: Hmmmm.
DAVID: Can you all give me another pen,
please? Sherry, try to get this to write. I need --
Sherry? Sherry's not behind me, is she? Oh, okay

1
she's - yeah, yeah. C-A-V? CA-V?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'll connect it
off.
JIM: David?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Did you get your pencil?
DAVID: Yeah. C-A --
JIM: C-A-VA-NAUG-H.
DAVID: A-N --
JIM: AU -- C-AVA-N-A-U-GH.
DAVID: -- A-U-G-H. Okie doke.
JIM: Is she getting the kids ready?
DAVID: Yeah. Are those other kids there
yet?
 Pause!
JIM: David?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Are you okay, Buddy?
DAVID: Yeah, I'm all right.
JIM: I just heard you groan a little bit.
Are the kids  I don't hear the kids.
DAVID: You don't hear the what?
JIM: I don't hear the kids.
DAVID: Oh, well, you all kids want to make
some noise?
JIM:  Laughing! That's usually not a

problem, kids making noise.
DAVID: Oh, there's
hollering. I keep looking at
JIM: Yeah. You'll
DAVID: Oh, I know.
JIM: Who's helping
what?O C
14
babies all in here,
them the last, last time
see them again.
I promise.
them, Sita or Sonja or
DAVID: Is Sita - yeah, they're back.
JIM: Is Sita there?
DAVID: Where's Sita?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: --
DAVID: She can come here.
JIM: Yeah, let me talk to her a minute.
DAVID: All right.
Sita: Jim?
JIM: Hi, Sita.
Sita: Yes?
JIM: That went smooth, okay?
Sita: Oh, yes, fine. I just forgot one
thing to give to the guys.
JIM: Okay.
Sita: But I'll give them the next round
JIM: That's great, that's great. Now, are,
are these next two ready cause I've got the car there
waiting, so I wanted to kind of get them out.
Sita: Okay. Is there ladies watching the

15
baby?
JIM: Yes. Oh, yes, absolutely. I've got
two ladies here.
Sita: So you  Indiscernible! I, I gave you
the milk and the carob. I forgot to get the honey.
JIM: Yeah. Give me the info on these next
two. Is it -- is this Scott and Chrissy Mabb?
Sita: Yes, Scott and Chrissy Mabb.
JIM: And how old are they?
Sita: How old are you? Eleven --
JIM: Okay.
Sita: -- and seven.
JIM: Okay.
Sita: Scott is 11.
JIM: Okay.
Sita: And Chrissy is seven.
JIM; Okay. All right, good. Why, why don't
you go ahead and get their coats and let them kiss and
hug there and say goodbye and take them out because the
car is at the water tower?
Sita: Okay.
JIM: Okay? And listen.
Sita: Yeah?
JIM: And then - I told David I'm going to
have to get off the phone for a few minutes, but I'll
be back and, you know, I'll let you talk to them and

all.16
Sita: Okay. You want to talk to David
before you go out?
out rightJIM: Yeah, let me have David. You walk them
now, okay?
Sita: Okay.
JIM: 'Cause the car's waiting and I need to
get the word.
telephone
the radio,
HEY, 9Y1Sita: Okay.
JIM: Okay, Sita. Thanks.
DAVID: Hello.
JIM: Hey, Buddy, she, she does a good job.
DAVID: Oh, so they're going to open our
lines up now?
JIM: No, I haven't got the word on that.
DAVID: Oh, this is what they were saying on
that --
JIM: Oh, really?
DAVID: _Yeah.
JIM: Listen, this Scott, he's 11 years old?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Yeah. He must be a big boy.
DAVID: He's, he's kind of small. He's thin.
don't worry about it, okay?
JIM: Yeah, we'll take care of him. Tell him

92  17
DAVID: Hey, you can take your motorcycle,
too. You be sure and tell them that one of the
motorcycles here is yours, okay? All right.
JIM: We move before we - okay.
DAVID: I'll be sure and tell him
that -- when this is all over that the motorcycle's
yours, all right? Okay. All right. Love you. Bye.
Come here and give me a kiss. Love you. Remember all
I taught you, okay? And you're going to be a good girl
now, right? - yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to lick
it.
DAVID: Okay. All right. Now, Jim --
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: - make sure these guys are bringing
the kids to you.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: So you make sure you  when you,
when you get this that I'm giving to you, you know, and
you open this up, I want you to tell me exactly what's
in it, all right?
JIM: You've got it, I will.
DAVID: Okay. All right. Have the kids
gotten there yet?
JIM: No, uh-uh. They sure haven't.
DAVID: They haven't gotten there yet. She's
getting them ready.

18
JIM: Hey, David, I really want to thank you.
I appreciate this.
DAVID: Oh, well, I appreciate it.
JIM: You know --
DAVID: I've always had faith in mankind, you
know, that you don't have to always be so beastly.
JIM: Well --
DAVID: You know?
JIM: -- you're, you're a wise man.
DAVID: I figured, I figured you all would
turn back when I told you there was women and children
here, but, you know --
' JIM: Are they coming? Are they -- got their
coats on?
DAVID: Yeah, they're getting all ready.
JIM: Getting all ready? Here, give me Sita
again. Is she there?
DAVID: Yeah, she's here.
JIM: Okay, let me talk to her.
Sita: Hello?
JIM: Sita?
Sita: Yes.
JIM: Okay, are they ready?
Sita: Yes.
JIM: Okay, you going out now?
Sita: Are they playing the --

19
JIM: We already played it.
Sita: we didn't hear it.
JIM: Oh. Well, we played it before. I'll
play it again. I mean, I will.
Sita: Thanks a lot.
JIM: Okay. Just take them out to the car,
okay?
Sita: Okay.
JIM: Okay.
 Pause!
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: LOsing them.
What's happened? They're not there. Have you got
them? Dead. Okay. Okay.
JIM: David? David?
JIM T0 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I've lost him.
a a a u
STEVE: Hello.
JIM: Hey, Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: This is Jim.
STEVE: Hi, Jim.
JIM: Hey, that phone just went --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: - off on me.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where are they
at now? So, have they been  the, the other group has

20
been picked up, right, the two?
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Have they picked
them up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: The first two,
yes.
JIM: Yeah, the first two we got.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: But Sita was coming out right now with
STEVE: Yeah. I guess they're waiting to
hear that announcement on the radio.
JIM: Oh. We played it, though, a while --
we'll play it again.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: I mean I'll play it twice for you.
Just I've got the car sitting there and --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: - I wanted to get them, you know.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He says he'd
like to get them. He's going to play it twice for us.
JIM: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: Did Sita take them out?
STEVE: Not yet. She's standing right here.
JIM: Oh, okay.
STEVE: She's right here. They're ready to

Q Q
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go.
JIM: Ready to go. The car is waiting.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: So just have her go. Just go on out.
STEVE: There are four to six guys
camouflaged right now down at the barn. Honestly, no
joke.
JIM: Four to six guys at the barn?
STEVE: Yes.
JIM: I don't know where that is. Is that
the back barn?
STEVE: Yes, yes. It's kind of a block, a
cement block building.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: They're on the property.
JIM: Oh, on the property. Okay.
STEVE: They're on the property.
. JIM: Okay. Let me, let me check on this,
okay? »
STEVE: All right. Okay.
JIM: Hold on one second.
STEVE: All right.
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Hey, Steve,
Steve said that there's four guys at the barn. Check
on that.
JIM: Okay, we're checking.

22
STEVE: All right.
JIM: The barn --
STEVE: Just hold on one minute.
JIM: Okay. Hey, Steve.
STEVE: On the other side of the fence then,
there's two or three guys crouched.
JIM: Oh, which fence now are we talking
about?
STEVE: Right in the back.
JIM: Well, I'll check on it,
but --
STEVE: Okay. But right on the property,
sure, you know, I mean --
JIM: I'll check on it, but, look, Sita has
guaranteed safe conduct.
STEVE: Right, I realize that. But, you
know, they, they always get nervous when, you know - I
don't understand why those guys are doing that. We
want to keep right on moving with this.
JIM: Right. Well, go ahead and send Sita
out. The car is waiting. In the meantime, I'll, I'll
follow up on that. But, you know, if it's way out in
the back, you know, I'll check on it.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And, you know, we'll get it fixed. But
go ahead and send her out. Oh, hey, Steve. Steve.

23
Steve. Are they coming?
STEVE: Yeah, they're coming.
JIM: Okay. I just found out --
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: -- you're right. There were people
there. They were police. I just found out, we just
gave them the word to move back.
STEVE: Okay, thank you.
JIM: I'm sorry that happened.
STEVE: Okay, I believe that.
JIM: They were, were not supposed to be 92
there.
STEVE: Thank you much.
JIM: It was a, you know,  there was a lot
of people involved and, you know, communications --
STEVE: Right.
JIM: But we got the word for them to move
back and -- yeah, we're having a shift change.
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM: We're having a shift change.
STEVE: I see.
JIM: And, you know, we've got a lot of
people here and everybody's moving around, you know,
and --
STEVE: Right.
JIM:  I told David we're - they're

24
kicking us out of this building we're in. We've got to
go across the alleyway here to another place.
STEVE: Oh, no. Really?
JIM: It's no problem. It's just more room,
you know? »
STEVE: Right.
JIM: And then we're having a shift change
and there's people moving all around. You know what I
mean. So, I'm sorry it happened, but --
STEVE: Right.
JIM: -- we moved them back. Did Sita, did
Sita leave?
STEVE: Just a minute, let me see 'cause she
went down.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Yes, she did leave.
JIM: She did leave? Okay.
STEVE: Yeah, she left from up -- she left
from where I'm at here.
JIM: Okay. All right. Here's what we're
going to do. We're going to --
STEVE: He says, he doesn't - he says, I
don't want to rush these kids out of here.
JIM: Oh, no, no. No, no. Here's what we're
going to do. I'm going to wait till they make the
hook-up.

25
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Okay? And then I'm going to have to --
I'm going to tell you we got them safe, and then I'm
going to have to get off cause they're switching my
office. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. How long will that be then
 Indiscernible! return?
JIM: You know, half hour, 45 minutes.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And, and just take a break and, you
know, maybe you and David can get some time and talk
and --
STEVE: Yeah, he said, you know, he was
giving up, he said, the most precious thing in life.
JIM: I know.
STEVE: Yeah, these women. They are, the
women are giving up, you know, their most, you know, it
came from their body.
JIM: I understand and --
STEVE: I know you do. Are you a father,
too?
JIM: Yes, I have two children.
STEVE: Oh, that's good. Yeah, you would
understand. It's hard for him to let them go.
JIM: Well, he's not giving them up. I mean,
he --

O O
26
STEVE: Well, you know what I mean, though,
just even for a, you know --
JIM: A little while, yeah.
STEVE: Exactly. I know, but you know how
mothers are.
 JIM: You, guys visit and talk and --
STEVE: Exactly, right.
JIM: - while we take a break, you know.
I'm hoping maybe David's ministry will go on and I want
you guys to talk about that and us resolving this
thing.
STEVE: Right.
JIM: You know, we can do it --
srzvz: Right.
JIM: - and he, and he needs -- Steve, I'm
going to tell you something -- where you can help me --
he needs some medical attention. I'm really worried
about him. 4
STEVE: Oh, I've been telling him that, but
he keeps on saying he's fine.
JIM: Yeah. well, you, you talk to him for
me and --
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: - and just we're concerned. I mean,
an infection or something, you know.
srzvs: Right.

0 .
27
JIM: We're just concerned about him. I
mean, you know --
STEVE: Yeah, I know. I was after him even
an hour ago.
JIM: Yeah, we, we, we, we've got enough
tragedy. We don't want any more.
STEVE: Right.
JIM: And, you know, you think about it and
talk with him.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: we'll try to get him --
STEVE: All right. You want to call me back
then?
JIM: I just wanted to give you the word we
had the children.
STEVE: Okay, so I'll hang on.
JIM: Just hang on for just a second.
A STEVE: All right.
JIM: I'm going to check and see if they've
got them.
STEVE: Right. Okay.
JIM: Hold on one second - all right,
they're still coming I guess. I guess they're walking
down or something. Since   Unidentified male voice
in background not discernible.!
STEVE: Jim, I'm just going to --

/
. 28
JIM: Go ahead.
STEVE: Pardon? I've got another  I got a
call and I'm going to just talk to someone here.
JIM: You've got a call?
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: What is it, a reporter or something?
STEVE: Somebody that I guess we knew from
quite a while ago, you know, one that was here. You
know, are you okay and all that?
JIM: Oh, one of your, one of your people?
STEVE: No. Apparently somebody that knew of
us and, you know, it's just like some of these people
are calling the radio, well, you know, do the right
thing, they say, and, you know, say well, you know,
that's exactly what we've got to do.
JIM: Yeah. Okay, well --
STEVE: Can I call you back? Or, wait, I'm
going to go talk to him.
JIM: Well, wait just a second, because I
wanted to -- let's get the kids done and then I'll get
right off, okay? You know what I mean?
' srzvz: Yeah.
JIM: I just want to hook them up and then,
and then we'll get off for a while.
STEVE: Just a minute.
JIM: Yeah, Sita, Sita's out there.

29
 Unidentified male voice in background not
discernibl
have them?
left the ce.!
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: DO we, do we
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: NO. They haven
ompound?
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: They haven't?
DAVID: Okay, they're - Jim?
JIM: Hey, David.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: where's Sita?
DAVID: I'm listening to this Dobbs guy try
to explain away everything.
is she dow
think.
Okay.JIM: where's Sita at?
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where's Sita,
nstairs now?
JIM: Okay, they're getting in their --
DAVID: They're in the car?
JIM: Yeah, Sita's getting in her car, I
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Yeah, okay. That's what Steve said.
DAVID: Well, you - the guys down at the
tower will probably see them. Where I'm at, I can't
see them.

30
JIM: Yeah, okay. Okay. And the car's
waiting on them. Listen, as soon as we hook them up,
okay, which is going to be in just a few - two
minutes, I've got to get off because they're switching
my office. Okay?
DAVID: All right.
JIM: And I'll call you back. We're having a
big shift change. There's all kinds of police, you
know, that worked all night and agents that are moving
around, ambulances, you know. You know, everybody's
got to go to bed, you know.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: You can appreciate that.
DAVID: Oh, yeah.
JIM: So everybody's moving around and
they're kicking me across the alley, so --
DAVID: Okay. 
JIM: - I'll call you back, you know, in
about 45 minutes. But I want to give you the word
we've got the children first.
DAVID: Okie doke.
JIM: And then, and then we'll get the
children to talk to you when I get back on, you know,
later.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay?

6 O
31
DAVID: Okay, I'll let you go now.
JIM: Hold on, let me tell you I've got them
first. I don't want to have -- I want to make sure
I've got them, so that -- yeah  Indiscernible! says --
what? They didn't come out yet.
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where are they
at? Where are the kids at? Have they left yet?
JIM: Okay. Yeah. David?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: I think they're out front. Tell
somebody to tell them to come on.
DAVID T0 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Tell them to
go ahead and go down.  Unidentified female voice in
background not discernible.!
JIM: Man, you're hurting, huh?
DAVID: Yeah, Jim, it, it hurts.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: I won't lie to you.
JIM: well, think about -- I want you to
think about me getting you some medical attention. I
want you to think about it.
DAVID: I'm telling you, you've got all these
guys out there that are just telling everybody that I'm
a cult leader.
JIM: Well, that wasn't us. You know --
DAVID: As long as I'm alive, I'm a cult

32
leader.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Now, when I'm gone, see, then I'll be
removed out of the way and people will be free to think
their own thoughts.
JIM: well, I don't want you to be gone. I,
I want to - I'd like to see your ministry carry on and
I'd like --
DAVID: My ministry - I've been in it ever
since 1985 full force. One out of a thousand people,
okay?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: One out of a thousand are interested
in the Bible enough to learn --
JIM: David, I'm sorry. They're coming,
Sita's coming right now.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay? I want to give you the word in
just a minute. I just want you to think about, think
about some medical attention. Talk to Steve. He, he's
your right-hand man.
DAVID: I've thought about it.
JIM: He's your right-hand man.
DAVID: Well 
JIM: Listen, you can trust him. You guys
talk about it during the break, okay? For me, for me.

O Q
' 33
I'm asking you to do it.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: I'm concerned about you.
DAVID: Yeah. See, you don't understand.
JIM: Listen, I care about you. I'm
concerned about you.
DAVID: I know you care about me.
JIM: I was able to get -~
DAVID: I know the system cares about me.
JIM: No --
DAVID: And I know  look, I've - look, in
1988 I was arrested, all right?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Let's get real now.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: In 1988, we were out here, we got in
a confrontation and I praised the Lord when I heard
those sheriff's cars coming, okay? So, when they came
into get me, we put our weapons down and we was waving
them in, 'cause George is the one that was paying Mr.
Rambo. Now, when they came in, the guys got all out
and says come on over and let's talk. All right, no
problem. They were aiming on us. Once we put all our
weapons down, we came over.
I saw Mr. Thorn. I said, you know, how you
doing, Mr. Thorn? He kind of frowned at me a little

34
bit, you know. See, those guys knew we was out here.
Anyway, they said now, boys, is this all you got? Yes,
sir. Yes, sir. Then all of a sudden, get on the
goddam ground - and they started kicking at us.
JIM: Hmmm.
DAVID: And there was ants all over the
ground. We got bit by red ants, you know. I mean,
talking about  now, you know, that's, that's not
right because they were supposed to have come out here
and dealt with George. They should, they should have
never sent us.
JIM: Yeah, yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What's going on
now? .
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: A flag? What
about it? Okay, put up - well, go ahead and put up
our flag. Yeah.
4 JIM: You know, I remember  you were
talking about '88. Hello? David?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Oh, you okay? I want you and Steve to
talk and, and think about getting some medical
attention, okay? I just want you to think about it. I
was able to get all these agents to the hospital and
get them taken care of, okay?
DAVID: Uhhuh.

35
JIM: And everybody that got there is good,
and some of those guys were rea11y_;ore up. Some of
them were tore up worse than you and they're all doing
good. And I, and I'd like to -- you to think about it,
okay?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: I mean, it just concerns --
DAVID: I've thought about it.
JIM: It concerns me and I want you to talk
to Steve about it, you know. will you promise me
you'll talk to Steve or --
DAVID: well, I've been talking to him all
the time.
JIM: Well, I mean, but about you getting
some medical care. Get his advice, you know, think
about it, and, you know, it's a wise man who can change
his mind and a strong man who can change his mind. And
I think you're both of those.
DAVID: well --
JIM: You know, only a weak man, you know,
couldn't change his --
DAVID: The seven seals.
JIM: There's so much inside you. I mean,
you can do it.
DAVID: The seven seals, Jim.
JIM: Yeah, I know, David.

O O
36
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: I just, I just don't want you to suffer
any more.
DAVID: Well, the children are there, right?
JIM: Okay, they're almost together, the
agent said. Just a minute.
DAVID: Okay. well, let me let you go, and
give me a call back, okay?
JIM: No, I want to get them just -- I don't
want any mistakes. If something were to happen, you
know, you, you guys would feel bad and I'd feel worse.
So, let's get them together. I'll give you that word
and then, you know --
DAVID: Okay. well, let me let you have the
phone with someone else real quick so I can get do --
Ive got to do some moving around.
JIM: Okay, David. Yeah, sure.
JAMIE: Hello?
JIM: Who's this?
JAMIE: Jamie.
JIM: Jamie, this is Jim.
JAMIE: Oh, hi, Jim.
JIM: How you doing? ,
JAMIE: Pretty good.
JIM: Okay.
JAMIE: I think he's just moving -- getting

O Q
37
himself up here, trying to move around.
JIM: Oh, that's okay. I know he's hurting
real bad. Sita's down there with the kids and we're
trying to just --
JAMIE: Okay.
JIM:  get you the word.
JAMIE: Yeah. Okay, here, here, he's back.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Hey, Dave. Did you get more
comfortable? Oh, Dave.
DAVID: Sorry about that.
JIM: Hey, you okay?
DAVID: Two things I don't want to do, and
that's laugh and cough.
JIM: We got the kids. They're safe. We got
the kids.
DAVID: Yeah, it's my arm  thanks. Go
ahead.
. JIM: You hear?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: We've got the kids, okay? Everything's
great. We're going to take a break. It'll be good for
you, be good for everyone.
DAVID: Yeah, I need to rest up, get my
energy going.

I Q
JIM: Hey, I love you, Buddy. Now hang in
there.
DAVID: Okie doke. Catch you later, Jim.
JIM: All right, bye.
DAVID: Bye.
 End of Tape #7.!

Q
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE f8X
O3/17/93
4247 P.M.

 Tape 8x!
JOHN DOLAN: Hello.
VSTEVE: Hello, Steve here.
JOHN DOLAN: John Dolan here.
STEVE: John Dolan.
JOHN DOLAN: How are you?
STEVE: Not too bad. How's yourself.
JOHN DOLAN: Great. Good to hear your voic
STEVE: For sure.
JOHN DOLAN: I miss talking with you.
STEVE: Where have you been?
JOHN DOLAN: I've been here. They just
assigned me to other duties.
STEVE: I see. I see.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. I've been here. How ha
you been?
STEVE: Well, it's been kind of an up and
down ride here since I talked to you Friday of course
JOHN DOLAN: Of course. I know. I know.
STEVE: Yeah, things had a different turn
there but --
' JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: Is apparently, am I supposed to be
talking with Byron still or what's, what's the latest
thing? I didn't know it you wanted --
JOHN DOLAN: He -- my understanding, Steve,2
8.
V8

3
is he's coming from back from forward up there where he
was, or he's still up there.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: But anyway we can work out
anything we've got so.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN DOLAN: It's good, good hearing your
voice.
STEVE: It is. In fact the truth is I really
missed, you know, or missed working with you from that
day on and --
JOHN DOLAN: Exactly. Me too. Me too. So
hopefully we can work together and --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: We will work together.
STEVE: He had mentioned he was pretty --
I -- see, when I was -- when David was talking with him
which was for quite a while, David was quite quiet
while he was on the phone with him. So of course
apparently he was doing a lot of the talking. I didn't
know what he was saying.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: He asked me it we had a speaker
phone. We didn't. He gave -- when David was done he
had to use the facilities. He gave me the phone,
disappeared, and so I never really did know what he was
92

4
saying other than what Byron told me to some degree.
And you know, he was impressing on me too that we all
come out today, get in the buses and, you know, that
would be that.
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
STEVE: And I mean it was a lot  for just
saying that it seemed like the two or them were on the
phone a long time. So I don't know what else was
really said in between.
But I did in that period of time which has
been the past hour go and talk with the majority or a
number of people here. And they said, they reiterated
to me that the main thing for them is like what they
told me last night, they're waiting upon his God. They
believe that there's a commander of heaven, and that's
the one they fear. They realize you men have to
answers to commanders there. And they --
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: -- they appreciate that. They said
it's, it's not to take anything away from you, our
lives in this world, yours, your safety, my safety.
We've all had desires in this world of things we want
to do. But they actually, you know, I can't put it any
simpler than they, they fear the God of that Bible
but --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.

5
STEVE: - some of the issues I brought up
with John earlier in the day. I made a list. I hope
that he took them down or that they were recorded.
Those were the, some of the major things that bother
these people.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: One of the bigger things or issues
that came back up and that was brought up last night
was the, the hope that like even David brought out
earlier with Byron about other theologians dialoging
with him where the people could hear.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: I mean if they have answers or if
they have another perspective on those seals, he is not
who he claims to be, what other -- whatever credibility
he has with them is, is nil --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- it's not there. And he walked
away implying that even again to me, he said that if
they can even equal him, or if they can show something
from the book or give a good, give a good account of
their understanding. And there's so many theologians
much older than him, much more experienced both with
many other areas of study. so you know, they would
expect that something could be worked out with this
professor Philip Arnold from Houston --

6
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- or I believe the other man's name
was Taber  phonetic sp.! from north, from the
University of North Carolina. Again what they
mentioned was --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- they mentioned about the part the
ATE is still playing. They're, they're concerned. You
know, a lot of them bring that up over and over again.
Especially after what they heard at the press
conference.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, Steve. I listened to the
broadcast.
STEVE: Did you? Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: It was a tape. I mean I didn't
hear the actual broadcast.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: But I heard tape of the
broadcast. And you know, obviously I'm not a scholar,
and you know more than I do when it comes to that. And
I'm certainly glad to admit that. Like I said, it's
the straight scoop. You know, you and I talk the
straight scoop. And that's why I enjoy talking to you
so much.
And it sounded like he was saying to me that,
you know, only the Lamb can really come up with, with,

92 l
92 K ,7
you know, the solution of the seals. And it sounded
likethat's what was coming across the air. I think it
was about maybe, gosh, maybe a 12-minute tape that I
heard of the broadcast.
And as Byron mentioned to you, think he was
really looking forward to talking to David, which he
did,
form
want
that
knowand making some, some real progress in the, in the
of perhaps, you know, some people who maybe don't
to be there or maybe are ill or infirm or, or hurt
they could come out. And I think that would, you
, show some progress that Byron was interested in,
in demonstrating.
STEVE: I understand that. see --
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
STEVE: - but the difficulty lies where even
those very people that show an interest since the
breakdown Friday after I talked to you.
tellJOHN DOLAN: Right.
STEVE: And I mean I really -- I mean I can't
you how much I regret about that 5-hour non-
communication which I should have picked up the phone.
I, Iwas thinking that you were going to call me in a
few minutes.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, I did. I tried 25 times.
STEVE: And I, and I believe that.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Yeah.

8
STEVE: There's -- I, I don't doubt that in
the least.
JOHN DOLAN: No, I was so --
STEVE: And I feel like --
JOHN DOLAN: Go ahead.
STEVE: Yeah, I feel like a lot of that was
my responsibility, because I should have had enough
sense to pick up the phone to see if there might have
been a problem. After that I mean I was still
convinced that those three people were going to leave
that morning, Saturday morning --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: - not even questionably.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum. Um-hum.
STEVE: And like I told these men, I had
talked to a number. And it's because too like David
said to Byron that there were some problems with us as
a group of people from the incident that happened that
Sunday. There's certain things we don't do like when,
like in the Bible we take things in moderation. So
we're not people that are given to heavy drinking. And
certain people took advantage of certain situations --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- that were suggested to them. They
needed to go out.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum. Um-hum.

9
STEVE: And so when like I was speaking with
you, that was in my mind. Even that Friday --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE:  night.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: So that  and that next morning I
was even expecting that there would be quite a number
of people and not to say the least the majority coming
out.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. I --
STEVE: But see - excuse me. I don't know
why it happened, how it happened with the commanders
over, you know, like yourself, John Cox and so -- or
maybe like they said that it wasn't going fast enough
to suit them or something.
But I had wished that they had remembered
from the beginning what David said they were here in
the first place from all over the United States mainly
to hear this man, to see him open something. He did do
that contrary and overwhelmingly so compared to other
scholars and ministers and so forth. So they had
gained a conviction that the man had something. See
and so that's where the difficulty --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: - lies more than any other place is
the spiritual conviction, having a fear ot a God that

10
we don't really know but we see in his book. He talks
about last day events. And to them it's very clear
that after 6,000 years of human history you and I are
here. We're finally here.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum. I know.
STEVE: So you know -~
JOHN DOLAN: I, I think --
STEVE: - that's where the difficulty lies.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum. I think maybe, you
know, I can't speak for what's in their mind and, you
know, for anybody's mind except what's, what's in your
mind and in my mind. But I, I certainly know that you
want to go forward and I want to go forward. And I, I
think maybe they want me, put me back, allowed me to go
back, however you want to phrase it.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: Because they were looking --
because they understood I think that you and I had, had
something really special and that was trust. And you
know, when that, when that gets broken it's hard to,
hard to restore that unless you know the people
involved and get those same two people back together.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: And I think that's what's in
their mind at this point. I don't know. Like I said,
I can't speak for their mind. It's just a guess. But

ll
you know, they're looking to move ahead. I want to
move ahead with you. I think you want to move ahead
with me. And I'm glad we're back together getting this
done, you know.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: So how does it stand with the
people who are like, like you said overdoing the things
that should be done in moderation? Are they coming out
or --
STEVE: Well, that's - see that's just right
now like David - well, see now this is going to be
something that you wouldn't believe or would have a
hard time buying. But I went and talked with him. He
said something was revealed to him. It hasn't been
stated to him about his moving out or those that trust
in his God not to that. But I went and asked him
what's happening. He said something was shown to him
about the prophecies. And I went like this, oh good.
JOHN DOLAN: Good.
STEVE: And then he says to me no, not good.
He says you people have not been sober and so forth.
And so it still comes down to that there are people
here that choose or would like to --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE: - remain here.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.

12
STEVE: But they may be told to leave anyway.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: So that's like say right now I'm
waiting to hear what that's all about myself.
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE: And with some of the others that
showed an interest like that you had when you had
worked with me, and because of the way you are, your
personality, and they saw my response to you, those
were the ones that had chosen, those were they ones
that were ready to come out. And now they're sitting
there really not saying anything even though I've had
so many talks with them from the time you left and
tried to regain their confidence in what you and I were
doing. I've not really been able to do that.
And even after the meeting the day before
yesterday with Byron and Jack, they're - they raised
these issues to me now. Issues that they hadn't really
talked about to any real degree about the ATF. Because
they've been listening to the radio since then being
that we were cut off, of course, you know, the
electricity, TV.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: They didn't get to see the, the
videotapes you people sent.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.

A 13
STEVE: You know like Kathy and, and her son
and so forth.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: They never got to see that because of
the electricity being cut off. So it was some of those
things that kind of changed their outlook. And I've
been still talking with them. But then they raised me
before I came back to talk with John3.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: I told them about their concern about
the spokesperson for the ATF and, and the part they're
still playing, what's happening to them right now.
They want to hear something on the airwaves that there
is an investigation. We've been told that there is.
But you know, they hear nothing about it. They're
afraid.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: They're actually afraid of a power
like that that takes precedence over the press, over
every other aspect of American society.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, well, the press asks some
hard questions. And you know the, the press in all
candor, you can remember back to Watergate. I know
you, you were an adult then. And you were watching the
news when the press literally took down President
Nixon --

l4
STEVE: Um-hum. Umhum.
JOHN DOLAN: -- for the acts that he had done
in connection with Watergate. And, and if there's an
analogy here, if there's any wrongdoing by anybody in
ATE, the press is really the person that's going to
take them down. There's no question about that. Do,
do you see what I mean?
STEVE: I do but I --
u JOHN DOLAN: So that's going to happen.
STEVE: - don't -- I can't agree with you.
Because I think that -- it seems to me that they have
folded in. And it doesn't mean to you or to the guys
I'm talking to. But it seems to me they are folded
into your agency which seems to be more powerful than I
ever dreamed.
I mean you -- of course, you already know
that your agency takes, has the power and that's been
shown to do their will whatever the press is. And the
press buckles in. If you said go back 10 miles, I
believe they would go back 10 miles. I've heard a lot
of things since that time. I never dreamed it was
quite like that. And it's not to take anything away
from you as a person --
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: - or your sincerity or some of those
that I've spoken with. But you know, we see that as

15
being a reality.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. Let me tell you
something.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: The FBI has about 10,200 agents
roughly. The ATF has 2,000. They're, they're
relatively speaking, I mean I know you may perceive
them as being larger. They have 2,000 agents for the
entire United States of America.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: To give you some contrast, the
New York City Police Department has 30,000 sworn
officers. So you're talking about a relatively small
agency. And as a matter of fact, going back to the
Reagan administration, Reagan was talking about
combining ATF with Secret Service and with other
agencies.
So you know, the fact that you're talking
about a very powerful agency, you're talking about a
relatively small agency in the number of sworn agents
or, or sworn personnel as we say. And you're talking
about not a large agency. And you're also talking
about an agency that at least in the past has, the
President had proposed that they be assumed by Secret
Service.
So you know, if you're saying real powerful

16
and could overcome the press, I really don't think so.
I don't think so.
STEVE: Well, I just, you know, I'm concerned
with like the, the spokesperson for the ATP when the
comments are made --
JOHN DOLAN: I, I understand what you're
saying.
STEVE: -- that have been made today.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: And I mean if she would only state
some general things sometimes when it comes to the
actual happenings. But for him to state as a fact what
happened. And I was an eyewitness as many - there
were women here that actually looked out windows that
got - and when they looked out the window that Sunday
morning, they were shot at. Their honestly should be
at least 20 of them dead right now. And when they get
to look at where the bullet holes were made and so
forth, seriously, John.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, I know.
STEVE: And I mean, but here's a man saying
that they came here. They knocked at the door. They
never physically - he said one man came to the door.
I heard the press this morning. He said one man came
to the door and knocked at the door. Not so. Not so.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, the pictures in lime

17
magazine have many, many in front of the front door.
You know what I'm saying?
STEVE: Oh, is that, is that why maybe we,
they have not yet given those magazines? Is there
something that we might see or, or --
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE:
JOHN DOLAN: I'll, I'll try to work
Believe me. I'd
with between you
the fact of ATP.
Subcommittee are- is it nothing to that or what?
on that.
like to get something going, you know,
and me. And, and in getting back to
You got to understand that the Senate
trying to determine what really
happened. So you've got the Senate, the whole United
States press corps as well as the United Kingdom press
corps --
STEVE: I would sure like to hear something
about that. I mean if such a thing's happening, if
it's coming out on C-SPAN, I mean if it came through
the radio airwaves. I mean I'd like to hear
something --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: - or anything.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I just understood now
that Byron wanted to talk to you. Apparently he was,
had something he wanted to say to you. I guess it's a
continuation of the good dialogue that was going on

18
before. So let me see if I can arrange that. And --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN DOLAN: -- I know that they're trying to
arrange that right now.
STEVE: Well, it's always a pleasure --
 Interference.!
JOHN DOLAN: It's a real pleasure talking
with you.
STEVE: Yeah, I can't, I can't hear you now.
I  indiscernible! --
JOHN DOLAN: I think this is part --
STEVE: Hello? Hello?
JOHN DOLAN: A part of the patch. They're --
hello?
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Steve, they're trying to
patch you to Byron.
STEVE: Oh, I see. Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: And he's at a separate location.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: But if we, if we break contact,
I just mean telephonic contact by over the phone, we'll
get back together. Because I, I do have a lot of
things I want to say to you. And I know you feel the
same way too.
STEVE: Okay.

l9
JOHN DOLAN: And it is very good talking with
you. I'll be very candid --
STEVE: It is. It is.
JOHN DOLAN: -- about that. So let's, let's
see how we are doing with the, with the patch hookup
here.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: But how's Judy doing? And a
couple questions I had.
STEVE: Apparently she seems to be about the
same. It doesn't --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- seem like it's gotten any worse
right now. It's still, you know, a very fat finger.
It looks very bad.
JOHN DOLAN: Does it have any odor to it?
STEVE: I haven't check. You know I actually
haven't -- I've been so busy to this morning right
through.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: From this morning with listening
to -- okay.
JOHN DOLAN: That's just a part of the
patch --
BYRON: You there?
JOHN DOLAN: -- so you may just --

20
STEVE: Yeah, hello.
BYRON: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
BYRON: Okay. This is Byron.
STEVE: Byron.
BYRON: Yes. Okay. We've, we've got kind of
a three-way connection. Because I'm still out right
around the corner from you.
STEVE: Oh, you are. Okay.
BYRON: Yeah. Listen I, I don't mean to
interrupt your conversation that you got going there
with John.
STEVE: Okay.
BYRON: But I wanted to let you know that --
 Push button tones.!
BYRON: You still there?
STEVE: Yeah, I'm still here.
. BYRON: Okay. The buses are, are in
position. The ambulances I think we just brought a
couple of emergency medical teams up so that they can
provide proper care including to your wife. And I'm
going to be going forward to up by the water tower to
just not necessarily to oversee it but to make sure
that anything that, that we can do this just as
smoothly as possible. We'll live up to our end of the
bargain. Okay?

21
STEVE: I'm not really sure I understand what
you're really talking about right now.
BYRON: Well, we're talking about what we
were talking about before and frankly what we've been
talking about --
STEVE: which is - can you just --
BYRON: -- for 3 weeks and that's the
bringing some people out of the, of the compound.
We've got, we've got --
STEVE: You know, it's the strangest thing
that I observed between you and David when you were on
the phone. And I mean I don't know how long you were
on the phone. I didn't time you. But it seemed like
quite a period of time.
BYRON: Yeah, it was about an hour I think.
STEVE: Yeah, and what -- apparently what you
were saying was so totally opposite of what he was -- I
heard,him talking about spiritual things, about his
love for your soul, about you understanding something
about his commander which he said is his father. He --
BYRON: Right.
STEVE: - he was getting into what's going
to be happening to some degree in this world with all
of us. And when he gave the phone to me what I heard
you saying, I about tell over to be honest with you.
And I went upstairs. I went to talk to a number of

22
people in this past hour. I went up to talk to him. I
says well, what was really stated? And apparently, you
know, you didn't really hear anything he said and --
BYRON: Well, Steve, let's, I mean let's,
let's just --
STEVB: It seems like it's falling on deaf
ears. Can I say it that way?
BYRON: You're, you're exactly right. It's
falling on deaf ears. Because -- and not from this
end. Because I talked to him, you know,
straightforward. I talked to him from the heart that
we've, we've got to make a commitment. We've got to be
able to see what's, what's -- he's in a leadership role
as are you. You still there?
STEVE: Yes. I'm listening.
BYRON: Okay. And that, you know, we had a
good exchange. The fact that we've got -- we've done
everything that you all have asked. I've gone out --
STEVE: No, no. Not so. Not so.
BYRON: Let me finish please.
STEVE: Okay.
BYRON: I've gone out and I've, I've rounded
up all of these documents and so forth that I went over
with you before you handed me off to David which I
appreciate by the way the opportunity.
STEVE: Right. I figured you wanted that.

23
BYRON: But we've, we've got that. We've
done it. We've done everything that we can. It's now
time to move forward, okay? we've got three buses
here. We can accommodate I don't know how many people
but probably --
STEVE: I want to -- let's, let's --
BYRON: -- every bit as many as, as you had
talked previously.
STEVE: It's not going to happen that, it's
not going to happen that way. Let, let me -- so I
don't give you any kind of false hope or anything
unless you choose to force it --
BYRON: Why is it not going to happen that
way?
STEVE: Because number one, you heard all the
issues I raised earlier I do hope or - I gave them to
John-3. And I believe I started reiterating those
statements and those points to you about the ATF, about
very issues that Wayne Martin is concerned about when
he got on the telephone.
BYRON: Steve, we've addressed all those
things is what I'm saying. We're cover -- it --
you're, you're --
STEVE: You, you say you've given us every --
BYRON: -- absolutely right when you talk
about it's falling on deat ears.

C O
24
STEVE: No, okay --
BYRON: Because --
STEVE: It's -- you said you've given us
everything we've asked for. It you go back 2 weeks
ago. And I'm not going to do that right now. But you
go back and you listen to what, what was agreed upon.
And then picking up even Friday, where are the

ewsweeks and the Ting magazines? Where, where's the
dropping off of the tape of Dr. Arnold? Where's the,
some of the --
BYRON: I've got the tape right here of
Dr. Arnold. You are the, you are the person, Steve,
that did not want to come out and talk in the road.
STEVE: That's true. You're, you're right
about that.
BYRON: Okay. And, and you and I -- and that
offer is still open. You and I can still communicate
straightforward, one to one. Do you know where I'm
coming from?
STEVE: Exactly.
BYRON: I'm not going to feed you a line of
garbage. But Steve, we're, we're not getting anywhere.
We're not moving forward. We're dancing with one
another. i
STEVE: Well, let me say it this way. In
case you missed the point with David. And this is what

25
he would say. This is what I would say. This is what
the people are saying. A couple weeks ago our rights
were infringed upon as American citizens. I'm talking
about the hundred and about fifty people here or more.
I'm talking about this whole --
A BYRON: which was not done by the FBI.
STEVE: Okay. But those rights were
infringed upon. We are American citizens.
BYRON: And we stand ready to make sure that
your rights are protected. I've told you that time --
STEVE: Okay. But now it's --
BYRON: - and time again. That's why I say
we just keep going around the same issues.
STEVE: Okay, but the, the whole thing gets
back to, the whole thing gets back to is we have to
answer conscientiously first to God. That's what
you've got --
BYRON: Steve.
STEVE: - to understand. It has to do --
BYRON: Steve.
STEVE: - with an element called time.
BYRON: Steve. Steve.
STEVE: And some of these people - wait, no.
Now I listened to you. Now come on, Byron. Just give
me a chance. Give me a chance now. So I've talked to
these people. And I've tried to give them every

/Xx _|
26
opportunity. I've shared the things that you've, I've
talked with you about to them. I really have. I've
given them my perceptions of that meeting, about your
personality, about trust, about what took place, what's
taken place up to that point of time.
The whole element comes back to this word
wait. His God says wait. And that's what the majority
want to do. At the same time, there's some that I keep
on talking to. Do you understand?
BYRON: Yes, I do.
STEVE: Okay. But at the same time, when
you're telling me there's buses up there ready for this
whole -- it's not going to happen that way. Not just
yet anyway.
BYRON: Steve.
STEVE: Maybe, maybe if you showed me more
about the ATP, what they want to see.
- BYRON: Wait a minute. Wait. Steve.
STEVE: You show the answers that - wait,
wait. The answers that, that you say you've got for
Wayne and myselt that we raised along with some of
these other things that might seem to be minor or small
to you. It we can look at those things, and I can take
them to the people, we can talk about those things,
then let's see what happens.
BYRON: Steve.

27
STEVE: Yes. -
BYRON: You know as well as I do, and I'm
getting hoarse just sitting here talking to you. And I
know you are as well. That with the amount of, of
authority that you exercise coupled with the, the
obvious leadership of David that there are a number of
people there  you've expressed this to us yourself.
You, you have said earlier that, that there were people
that David was ready to send out.
STEVE: That is correct.
BYRON: Okay. Send out. Then send them out.
I mean let's get something going. You need to
understand I'm not just sitting here itching because I
want to fill up a bus. I'm sitting here itching
because I want to continue to be able to go in to my
boss and express to him that we have progress. Steve,
right now we don't have tangible progress. We've got
good rhetoric and we've got --
STEVE: Well, you tell your bosses what they
did --
BYRON: - a tremendous dance lesson going
on.
STEVE:  you tell your bosses what they did
Friday night they could have done --
BYRON: That's history. I'm talking about
today.
~ 92

28
STEVE:  no, no, no, no. No, I don't care
it it's history. It's still  Byron, be real. It
gets back to what they chose to do. And I even counted
that with Dec - you listen to that, the tape all day
Saturday. I told him they could have done no greater
damage. They could have shown some good will by
turning the electricity back on to show that they might
have made a mistake in their behalf, in their judgment.
BYRON: Steve, I, I don't --
STEVE: Byron, do you understand that?
BYRON: Yeah, I don't, I don't disagree with
you.
STEVE: But those men, but those men have not
to this time shown that. They've not allowed you and
the negotiators to even give a jig; magazine, a
Newsweek magazine. which --
BYRON: I'm glad you understand that.
STEVE:  which by the mail was supposed to
be rightfully a couple individuals on the premises
theirs anyway.
BYRON: Hey, your, your mail, your attorney,
your medical, all those things stand ready. But
nothing is going to come in there until this is
resolved. You need to understand that.
STEVE: Well, you already --
BYRON: Do, do you understand that?

29
STEVE: Well, you understand that you people
already --
BYRON: Steve, do you understand that?
STEVE: -- you already promised us from
Friday night the Eewsweek, the Time magazine. That was
already promised.
BYRON: Nell, we promised you that we would
try to get a hold of it. And that's --
STEVE: No, they --
BYRON: -- you're absolutely right there.
STEVE: You go back on the tape. They said
they already obtained it, a brand new issue, perfectly
new --
BYRON: We had to go all the way to Dallas to
get it.
STEVE: Okay. But now don't say that, you
know, you already have it. You already obtained it
that night because --
BYRON: No, I'm confirming that. I'm telling
you --
STEVE: Okay.
BYRON: -- that you're absolutely --
STEVE: Okay, and --
BYRON: -- right. I'm not trying to feed you
any kind of garbage here.
STEVE: John Cox told me, John Cox told me

30
that Friday night they were going to be dropped off.
Friday night. He says it will take about an hour from
where I'm at to the place where ~-
BYRON: Listen. We --
STEVE: -- this is what he said. You go back
and listen to the tape.
BYRON: Okay. Okay. Okay. I understand
that. And what I'm telling you is that was in earnest.
That was our intention and our desire.
But the, the feedback that I'm getting, and
again, draw the parallel. Step back and look at this
independently. I am in exactly the same boots that you
are in. Except instead of you answering to David, I'm
answering to my commander. The same exact situation.
He's telling me go ahead and secure those magazines.
But there ain't nothing going in there until
something's coming out. Now I'm just telling you man
to man.
STEVE: All right.
BYRON: That's the way things are. And we've
got to get ~
STEVE: Okay.
BYRON: Listen, it you want us to make
progress, and I think you do. And I'm telling you that
I, I absolutely do. We have got to find some common
ground. Steve, and you and I can do this. You and

-I31
John can do this. In fact, I'm getting the high sign
that I'm moving up to the tee. Steve, I would want
nothing more than to see you come out. We'll discuss
this further. But please, please seize upon this
opportunity. Because it is in your best interest.
I STEVE: See, one thing I, I can't emphasize
enough, I don't have the influence you people give me
credit for. I see --
BYRON: Steve, I talk to you in the road.
STEVE: They may  look at --
BYRON: I think you sell yourself short.
STEVE: But they -- no, they choose for me to
communicate because I can to some small degree give out
some of their concerns and share those concerns to
some --
BYRON: Steve.
STEVE: -- to some point of perspective.
BYRON: Steve, I --
STEVE: Yeah.
BYRON: - understand that, okay? And I, and
I respect what you're saying. And I think I know - I
don't claim to know you well.
swsvz: Okay.
BYRON: But I, I know - you and I have met
under circumstances that bond people pretty rapidly.
And I think that I know what you're talking about and

32
I, I understand it. I accept it. But I've got a lot
more -- I think I've got a little bit more respect for
the influence that you wield than, than maybe even you
do.
Listen, I need - I'm --
STEVE: You must definitely. Because --
BYRON: -- stepping out. I'm going to leave
you with John.
STEVE: -- I, I just can't, you know, I don't
see what you're saying.
BYRON: I think it's there if you just
exercise it. But that's a decision you've got to make.
John, are you still there? John?
JOHN DOLAN: Hello? -
BYRON: Steve, hold on just a second. I'm --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Hello?
. BYRON: John, you still there?
JOHN DOLAN: I'm here.
BYRON: Okay. I'm going to have to, to step
out. I'm going up to the tee. So please, I will be
there to do everything I can. We will meet you more
than halfway. Let's, let's see this through my friend.
STEVE: Okay.
BYRON: I'll talk to you later.
STEVE: Okay.

 Byron hangs up phon
STEVE: John.
JOHN DOLAN: Yes. B
you something. He is a totall
mean if you look in his eyes,
you the truth.
STEVE: I believe --
have heard David on the phone,
in this world. When, when Dav
I saw that he was cut off many
know, the choice by you people
background and ignorance don't
speak in a spiritual vein.
But that spiritual v
vein in that what he's saying,
down the, the nations of this
be held as an example to the r
of all that the blessings that
country to exercise not only i
for those freedoms and to help
those freedoms. But to pursue
the will.
God - look at, this
6,000 years. People are dying
bring about any solutions. No
office, who isn't, it's just n33
e.!
yron is -- let me tell
y sincere human being. I
you can tell he's telling
oh, I wish you could
John. I'd give anything
id was talking to Byron,
times. Because you
for your own reasons of
choose to hear David
ein is also a political
God's going to bring
world. One is going to
est of the world because
have been given to this
ts freedoms but to allow
others in the world have
God and to understand
world's gone on for
every day. Man can't
matter who you vote into
ot going to happen

34
But the thing here, these people fear God
over any other element. Not that they don't also some
of them fear man. But the point is when David says
that his God tells him to wait, that's still one of the
stumbling blocks.
JOHN DOLAN: I appreciate that, that David
has, has told us and has told you that that's how he
feels. But the children in there do not - certainly
we know that a 4-year-old doesn't decide for itself.
We know that.
STEVE: Well, this is true. They don't.
JOHN DOLAN: They don't. I mean they don't,
they just don't know enough. And in a sense they are
what you might term innocent victims of circumstance.
STEVE: Just like I am.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Of course. So you know,
I mean they  if they are innocent victims of
circumstance, why don't we work on you and I and, and
just maybe get them out so that they are not innocent,
innocent victims anymore.
STEVE: John, I really - I'll tell you the
truth. I really love talking to you. But my bigger,
larger concern probably at this time is that there are
commanders over you.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, sure.
STEVE: I mean it there were --

35
JOHN DOLAN: Well, that's true.
STEVE: - more people like yourself in that
bureau that had more power of decision, I think there
would be a lot more problems alleviated. And I'm '
telling you the truth. I sincerely mean that. I think
it more people with your understanding and compassion,
th
 way you come across, had any influence of decision
or that, the power to make decisions I think this could
have -- I already know. I know what would have
happened Saturday morning and Sunday because of what
David even told Byron in regards to people that were
going to be removed from this organization because of
abuses of things that, that took place here.
JOHN DOLAN: Let me ask a question. What's
going on now with those people? Are they still abusing
or what?
STEVE: No, no. That only happened those
first couple of days. It didn't happen since that
time.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: But he said it looks like they still
are going to be have to be sent out.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: But the question -- in fact, he gave
them the opportunity to make the choice to even go
sooner. See that's what was happening.

36
JOHN DOLAN: So what did they say?
STEVE: That's why I wasn't kidding you --
but I could have told you that 20, 30 more would have
come out. I was - but I didn't, because I thought
well, let the three go out Saturday morning. I thought
I was going to be talking to you Saturday still.
And when Dec got on the phone and I said Dec.
And no matter what I said -- I'll tell you the truth.
I was totally frustrated. I was disgusted. I felt
like the carpet had been pulled out from under me. I
had had this awesome relationship with yourself. I
was - I thought even I would be coming out within just
a few days.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I was looking forward that
to be honest. And I felt that. And after you talk to
somebody for a while and you do establish a
relationship as, as Byron said you know what they're
thinking about. And I was quite frankly looking
forward to that. And I still am. That has not - I
didn't mean to use past tense. I'm looking, still
looking forward to that.
STEVE: See, you don't, you don't use  I
can't emphasize enough you don't realize even yourself
the damage that, that took place because of that
breakdown Friday night. Even John Cox told me we
had -- even David had a very good conversation with him

37
that evening.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: We put the phone down. John was
going to call me back.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: And it was in regards to dropping off
the Newsweeg, lime magazines. Then I'm sitting
there - we're talking about John Cox right afterwards.
And you know, well, let me say it. You guys had bugs
all over the place. And we knew you did. We brought
them up in a couple places purposely.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: We thought we'd let you hear what was
all going on to some degree. You can, you know, take
from that. But at the same time if you were listening
very carefully, you would have heard David and I
speaking about  we thought it was a pretty good
relationship there with --
JOHN DOLAN: It was a good relationship. And
it still is. Still is.
STEVE: And, and then the lights went out at
quarter after ll while I'm sitting there talking to him
in a good - I, I saw him very upbeat. So then right
after that he tells me well, call, call back - he, we
thought the lights, somebody had flipped the switch
accidentally here. We never dreamed honestly never

38
dreamed that that's what had happened. I
So when I called John, he said he'd call me
back. He never did. Next person I heard that morning
was John3. Then I talked to Dec. And we went round
and around. No -- you know, it's just like we weren't
getting anywhere. I was telling them I had lost what
little credibility I might have had or influence if
I -- I never seen --
JOHN DOLAN: I know. Let me ask you a
question. Did you --
STEVE: Okay, go ahead.
JOHN DOLAN: - did you ever make, did you
ever have a fight with your wife?
STEVE: Did I ever have a fight with her?
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: No.
JOHN DOLAN: I don't mean a physical fight --
. STEVE: No.
JOHN DOLAN:  a disagreement.
STEVE: NO.
JOHN DOLAN: No? Oh, boy. Okay. My parents
certainly did. And I certainly have with, you know --
STEVE: Oh, you mean - are you talking about
over the years?
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: Oh, over the  I thought you meant

39
just recently.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, no, no.
STEVE: Okay. Well, sure.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. Everybody has them. I
mean it's human nature, because you're made out of
flesh and blood. But that doesn't mean that you don't
go on with your life and continue doing great things
with each other and, and having a wonderful future
life, does it? _
STEVE: No, but I mean as nice as the analogy
is and how you would bring that into this situation, I
mean I can see some of the points you might make. But
you know, don't forget, I mean there's so many issues
here that are --
JOHN DOLAN: I, I realize that. The point is
that we've got to go forward. You're a family and in a
sense our family. Our family is, is, you know, Byron
and me and, and we've got to go forward with this thing
together. And, and that's what we want to do is --
STEVE: Are, are you --
JOHN DOLAN: -- we want to get this thing
moving together.
STEVE: John, can I ask you --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- are you aware if they did actually
get a tape of this Dr. Philip Arnold out of the Reunion

,-|. I
- 4 0
Institute of Houston?
JOHN DOLAN: Yes. I heard it.
STEVE: Oh, you did hear it.
JOHN DOLAN: The radio station.
STEVE: Yeah. See they -- I mean but did
your agency contact him? Was there anything --
JOHN DOLAN: Yes. Yes. we played it.
It's  as I said I heard it. It's about 12 minutes
long. '
STEVE: Oh, I see.
JOHN DOLAN: We - I'll tell you the exactly
way we did it. We just had them play the tape. And it
was played over the phone. We put a recorder at this
end and recorded it. And I listened to it. It was a
real simple procedure. And it runs about somewhere in
the 12, 14, you know, somewhere around there.
STEVE: As a response to what we requested
last night.
JOHN DOLAN: Exactly.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: We did that. I mean it was done
this morning. In tact, I personally, I personally did
it. And Byron has the tape.
STEVE: Okay.

JOHN DOLAN: So yeah, we did it.
that's one of the things I helped out on.
happy to help out. And I listened to it.
hear it, one person is a little bit closer
person is a little bit further in the, you
as volume.
STEVE: Okay.I, I --
And, and
And when
and one
know, as41
you
far
JOHN DOLAN: I think that's just the way it
came across. But you know, I'd like to keep the good,
good thing going that Byron established today. And you
know, what do you think we can do?
STEVE: Well, I don't know how good it was
I mean I, I see the sincerity of the man. But he's --
of course he  it's like he didn't hear or neither did
John 3 what I was saying earlier what the concerns of
these people are. I'm trying to figure out a way how
to reestablish and get moving myself. Byron was very
forceful, was very overpowering as the  I mean he
wasn't hearing anything.
So you know, it's like what do you do when
the man is almost demanding that we come out right now.
I wished it were that easy. I wished it were that
easy. If I could convince these people that there was
either no God or that they didn't need to have a fear
in this God of David, it would be nothing. I mean it
would absolutely be nothing for me. But because of

42
what they've heard and seen from him, there is no way.
You put me in another group of people
somewhere else, I could do it thousand times better.
But right now because of the Bible that he's opened up
to them, the things that he's - I wished -- I hope
that Byron, that which was stated to him by David he
hears, you hear. Because that's what these people
listen to. And --
JOHN ooum: Okay .
STEVE: -- only they get into deeper, deeper
detail.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: And they actually fear the God of
which he says he is in communication with. How do you
get around that? I mean if you go back to the stories
in the Bible with Daniel in the lion's den and the
Hebrew, three Hebrew worthies and the furnace of fire,
you go back to all these things, these people, they're
basing their lives on that there's a God that was
actually working through the history of man.
JOHN DOLAN: Well  .
STEVE: And still does.
JOHN DOLAN: Where, where can we go from
here? Where do you plan to go from here just --
STEVE: Well, I guess where we can go from
here, the main thing is, you know, always from the

43
beginning. The number one thing, and that has never
changed. And the only way I can figure out to change
that would be okay, number one, here's what I'm talking
about. David says just give these people a little
time. It's not, it's not that they disbelieve in their
government. It's not that anything else. But they
came here with freedom of choice to come into this
place to hear him and hear something about his God and
that information. And because of what's happened, they
believe that their rights were infringed upon.
So they need time. He said some of them --
and in fact that's what he said. Give them a little
breathing room. And that's the way a lot of them may
be.
Unless if you want to speed the process up,
the best way to do it is let some theologians discuss
or dialogue with David. I could put it on a speaker
phone. These people can come around to hear. And if
they can hear these men at least raise questions that
he can't answer or they're saying ah, could be, that's
all it would take. If all he's got is a could be and
he can't show it. And these people have a lot of
insight. They come from many denominational
backgrounds.
JOHN DOLAN: All right. Let's just take the
other side of the coin and --

44
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: - and let's, let's say that,
that none of these guys can create a doubt. Then where
does that put the situation?
STEVE: Well, I, well, I guess what it, where
it put the situation is they would probably believe
that the man does have something that -- he said only
the Lamb can open the seals, show where they're
literally located in the Bible. If that's true and
what he was saying to Byron.
But he's always opened to let any man show
anything. And let the people make a decision. Like in
the, in the book of I think it's first Kings where
Elijah challenges the prophets of Baal, 400 of them.
JOHN DOLAN: I, I know. But you know, by the
same token, you know, we've got to address the court
system. And we've got to address the crime scene. The
crime scene out there --
STEVE: Agreed.
JOHN DOLAN:  the older it gets in a sense
the less significance it has. Because I mean just --
D STEVE: How so?
JOHN DOLAN:  because rain washes away,
washes away things that are on the outside like
cartridge casings, you know. So the older it gets, the
worse it gets. So the more it deteriorates, I mean the

45
rain, the mud. It's harder to tind things. The sooner
we get there, the better that crime scene will speak to
what you, what your testimony is to what occurred by
ATP. So the, the sooner the Texas Rangers get to it,
the better it is. The better it's going to speak to,
to what happened out there.
STEVE: And I see, I -- and you know what? I
totally concur with you. I see your point. And it's,
and it's an awesomely good point. In fact, probably if
anything I, I believe it would be to our advantage or
to - in fact, no, definitely, positively to our
advantage.
JOHN DOLAN: It's absolutely to your
advantage. It's, it's -- that land there to which
everyone can return, of course, is testimony to what
occurred. And --
STEVE: Truly it is.
JOHN DOLAN: - the sooner the Texas Rangers
can get onto that land, conduct the crime scene, the,
the more truthful it's going to reveal itself --
STEVE: John, can I say one thing though?
Byron told me - now this is contrary to what you and
John Cox told me Friday and Friday night.
JOHN DOLAN: What's that?
STEVE: About the Eewsweeg, the Time
magazines being delivered here. Now he's saying that

46
have people come out and we'll do that. And that's
what -- David is insulted. I'm insulted. The people
are insulted by something that was agreed upon,
something that was so lightly and, and warmheartedly
offered to us that that would be done. I mean and all
of a sudden now that's used as some kind of a
bargaining chip or, or a carrot in front of a pole, a
string. I mean you know -
JOHN DOLAN: I know what you're saying about
that._ And I think, you know, I think in all candor
it's just --
STEVE: I think --
JOHN DOLAN:  kind of, kind of to get
something going. You know what --
STEVE: I think it would help to have those
along with his answers on tape along with the tape of
Arnold to let these people, let them look at that. Let
them look at it. Unless you think it's detrimental. i
Maybe there's something in that Qimg and gggwggk that
you guys are afraid of or pictures that may look
contrary to our wanting to come out that we'll get a
fair shake. Is that what the reasoning is or --
JOHN DOLAN: No, no. I'll, I'll be honest
with you. And you know I've been honest with you all
along.
STEVE: Okay.

47
 JOHN DOLAN: And I'm going to tell you
straight. I just --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: -- don't dance around issues.
And I think that's one of the reasons you, you kind of
appreciate --
STEVE: I do. I do.
JOHN DOLAN: -- appreciate our relationship.
STEVE: I believe --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: -- what you're telling me.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I'll tell you straight
from the shoulder. Those Tigg, Newsweek magazines,
which are the original copies which were driven down
from Dallas which --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: - were sold out here, they
won't be delivered unless there's some significant
movement going. Okay, and that's what they're telling
me. So I'm going to tell you straight out. It's not,
it's not something that's my decision --
I STEVE: Can I make a statement? And don't
like, like --
JOHN DOLAN: NO.
STEVE: -- for instance, Byron gave a
statement to me earlier. And he says don't be -- he

 "
said to
to be a
You can
But let48
me I don't -- he didn't say that it was meant
threat. But he gave a pretty strong statement.
ask him word for word what that statement was.
me just say David did want me to say something
to the agency, to your agency because you're in
control. Now it's not from me. It's -- but I, I this
is what
that for him he's
the rights of the
upon. He says if
come inhe --
JOHN DOLAN: Go ahead. Go ahead.
STEVE: Qkay. What the statement is, he says
got to wait. He mentioned about how
American citizens were infringed
they want to do other than that, they
and kill us all. That's what he said. Now
that's a pretty strong statement. But he --
JOHN DOLAN: Nobody wants to do that. Nobody
wants to --
STEVE: No, but he said it they, if they feel
that's what they've got to do, that's what they need to
do. It
this isthese people can't be given time to -- I mean
an important thing to them. They fear God.
They believe that God can take their souls. So I mean
secondarily to that is their human life. They've
already
so --come here because they want eternal life. And
JOHN DOLAN: I appreciate that. But David --
STEVE: Okay. But, but you don't understand

49
how powerful that statement really is. And their
belief, their performance and so forth, I want --
that's what I'm trying to tell you.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: So that's why
statement if they, if they want
they're threatening or whatever
got to do, well, just tell them
commander he's got to answer toDavid gave the
to and force or if
else they feel they've
he said that he has a
like he told Byron.
And that's what he will, and that's what he has to do.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: For the people it can be different.
They have to make their own decision. See that's the
thing.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, how, how  when you said
you were going to contact the people today, how did
that go as far as contacting the people?
STEVE: I went walking around this building
here. They're all over the place. And I started
saying I just talked to Byron for -- first David did
for some time. Then I got on the phone. He's got
white vans out there waiting to take you all, to get
this whole thing settled and done with. He promises
you that nothing will take place or against your person
bodily or any other way. They're anxious to get this
thing done and alleviate it. I told them that. I says

50
do you want to go? They're ready to fill and do
anything that's necessary to get this thing complete.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: And they all told me no, no, no all
the way through.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: But I mean but how can you get
another answer when you just say that many statements,
true? And it took me almost an hour to get all the way
through and to, to raise that question.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, I understand that David is
telling you that he needs to, needs some sign from,
from God, okay. I understand he's telling you that.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: But what about the innocent
victims who are in there simply because of their tender
ages? Now, now you and I could work to get the
innocent victims --
STEVE: Okay, well, let me start working on
that. Let me, let me write even the question down on a
piece of paper. Okay. The young, the small innocent.
_ JOHN DOLAN: They're innocent. They're
victims of circumstance and time.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: They're not - they haven't done
anything. They're totally innocent. Why can't we get

.»51
those innocent victims out of there, out of harm's way
in a sense because of the cold, because of the weather,
because of the heating problems and so on. Why don't
we get them out of harm's way? I mean that would be a
good thing for, for you and for me to do.
STEVE: Okay. I'm going to -- I'm jotting
that down right now as a point to be taken to them. I
can take it to the mothers, those, and the, you know,
the fathers, those involved.
JOHN DOLAN: I mean that would, you know,
what Byron was, was really saying was I want to show
some significant sign from David, from Steve, from both
that this matter is moving even though while David is
waiting.
STEVE: I'll --
JOHN DOLAN: You know what I mean?
STEVE: John, I really, I do really like you.
And I appreciate --
JOHN DOLAN: Vice versa.
STEVE: - all you're doing and your honesty.
But you know, the hard thing is if it could have been
you and I right on through without any other influence.
These commanders. I mean they're the ones that have
messed it up. I, I can't tell you anymore. But they
have  whoever made that decision Friday night, they
don't realize - they will realize. This could have

I O
52
been resolved much sooner. And, and they don't want to
hear it.
JOHN DOLAN: Remember --
STEVE: That's, that's the truth. But now
it's so much harder -
JOHN oonan: Right.
STEVE: -- to work. Because it seems like
they're  even though you're the mouthpiece and as a
human being, as a person, you do very well. You're an
honest person. I think you will tell me the truth.
But they're ultimately in control. They're ultimately
in control. Their will is done over and over again
contrary to your, what you might have to say about it,
your recommendations and so forth. And these people
are seeing that. And that's --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- the harder thing for me to, to get
around when I'm talking with them.
JOHN DOLAN: I know. Well, use the analogy
of, of having a disagreement with your spouse or your
significant other. Because I think that's a good one.
Sometimes, you know, I've seen policemen get calls that
they hate because they're domestic disturbances,
because they are the most violent type of calls. And
they are between two people that really care about each
other. And they get things resolved, and they go on

53
with their life and the future.
So what we've got to do, you and I, even
though there's some, been some bad things between the
people back east, the commanders and some things out
here, that doesn't mean that, that you and I can't move
forward and go forward from the past disagreements
even --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: -- they weren't between you and
me personally.
STEVE: Well, let's start really trying. And
I'm going to, I'm going to tell you I'm going to try to
do everything I can.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: I'm going to try to get the points
laid down, the issues. I'll tell you the response when
I talk to these people. If there's anybody slightly
showing an issue, I'll, I'll allow them to come and
talk to you on the phone. Not only allow. Let's use
the word encourage.
JOHN DOLAN: Urge.
STEVE: Urge is right, you know.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Okay. They're going to
be making some public address announcements. They've
got some --
STEVE: Okay.

54
JOHN DOLAN: -- PA speakers out there. And
they're going to be making some PA -- they're --
STEVE: Are you talking about speakers that
have been set up around the, the complex here?
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Yeah. And --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, so that's, you know,
they're going to start. But you know, like I --
STEVE: when is this, when is this going to
start?
_ JOHN DOLAN: I don't know. But I just wanted
to tell -- you know, like I said I'm, I'm a straight
shooter with you. And I'm, I'm going to tell you the
bottom line. .
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: And the bottom line here is, is
I - and Byron was telling you this. Call it -- it's
not a godlike thing. But it's, it's just a fact of the
court system, a fact of, of law enforcement system.
They need to get some people out there and show
progress is being made towards a peaceful, successful
resolution. That's what they're looking for. And I
know --
STEVE: Well, what do I, what do I do? Go
eenie, meany, miney, mo --
JOHN DOLAN: NO, DO.

55
STEVE: -- and tell a person you've got to
get out of here now --
JOHN DOLAN: No, no. Send, send out the --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: -- yeah, send out the kids. You
can do that with the kids. Eenie, meany, miney, mo
would be fine.
STEVE: You know I can't. You know I can
talk the issues to them though.
JOHN DOLAN: well, we've got, we've got what,
19 children left in there?
STEVE: Probably something like that I would
imagine. I don't even know for a fact. But that
sounds about right.
JOHN DOLAN: why don't, why don't we go ahead
and start working on those children. Because that's a
really -- that would be a wonderful --
STEVE: Okay. Let --
JOHN DOLAN:  thing to do. '
STEVE: -- let me call you back, and it will
be sometime in the next number of hours, okay? It
won't be real late or anything. It will be in the next
few hours or so. But give me some -- and you know
this - I'll tell you what. You know, this is not
easy.
JOHN DOLAN: Steve, I wouldn't ask you to do

something that was easy. Not under these
circumstances. You know that.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: And I don't think you'd ask me
to do something that was easy under these
circumstances. This is, is one of the most unique
situations in your --
 End of tape 8x.!

O Q
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE f9X
O3/17/93
6:31 P.M.

 Tape 9x!
JOHN DOLAN: -- just things, you know, that
just need more time, more time. We're into 18 days.
And they need some sign of a, significant sign of a
good, peaceful resolution. That's all you --
STEVE: How about a, how about a peace flare
being shot up out of the roof.
JOHN DOLAN: That's not going to buy it.
STEVE:  Laughing.!
JOHN DOLAN: That's definitely not going to
buy it.
STEVE:. Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I, I generally go off
duty at 6 p.m. and --
STEVE: Oh, you do.
JOHN DOLAN:  and the other guys come on.
STEVE: Who's coming on after you?
JOHN DOLAN: I, I think Mike will be on
tonight. But I'll be back tomorrow. And do, do me a
favor. Give me, give me your solemn word that you're
going to do this for us. Because - and I know you
will.
STEVE: You mean in talking to those that
might have influence with sending the children out.
JOHN DOLAN: Yes.
STEVE: I give you my word for a fact that I

Q O
3
will do that.
JOHN DOLAN: I accept that. And this is
really important. I'll tell you, this is, you know,
it's 18 days. It's a real critical time. I mean, you
know, the guys back East are saying holy cow. You
know, what's happening out there? You guys aren't
showing anything going on. And that may not be the
real case. But what is happening at least from the
perspective of 1,000 miles away. It appears to be
nothing. You know what I mean?
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN DOLAN: And, and we got to get something
going here. So let's, let's get this going. I mean
it's been 5 days since, since the last person --
STEVE: Let me try to -- I'd like to even
maybe get back with you before you leave. If you're
leaving --
 JOHN DOLAN: All right.
STEVE: -- at 6, I might even try to so --
JOHN DOLAN: Why don't you give me a call say
a quarter of 6. How's that? It's about an hour.
STEVE: Okay. Let me do that.
JOHN DOLAN: All right. I'll talk to you at
a quarter to 6.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
JOHN DOLAN: Thanks, Steve. Bye-bye.

4
iii
JOHN DOLAN: How you doing?
STEVE: Not too bad.
JOHN DOLAN: Good.
_ STEVE: Good. I went and talked with a
number of the, the mothers mainly that have the
children.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum. '
STEVE: And they are at a place I know of
reluctance, see. And of course the loudspeakers have
been playing off and on. But they're, they're not, you
know, apparently they got some in the back somewhere.
And they're, they're, apparently their lines are
breaking. Something's happening. But they fade in and
out. And you only can hear a few things, or not that
they particularly want to really hear anything. But --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, well, I wanted to tell you
about it so, you know.
STEVE: Yeah. Yeah, I was glad you did.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: But apparently they've understood
basically what the message was on there. And they will
have opportunity to act if they want to.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. How, how did the contact
with the mothers go?
STEVE: Well, I went and asked a lot of them

and, and asked about in regards to what they thought
too about the safety of their children. If they want,
here's an opportunity. They can go out or send their
children out and --
JOHN DOLAN: They can go out at anytime. I
mean --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN DOLAN: -- that's always open so --
STEVE: Right. And I -- and they said to me
basically they feel that their children are safer with
them, you know.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: There was like four of them standing
together. And so I approached them first right off
and, and asked them about it. They didn't really have
much to say other than they said well, we -- well, I,
the one says, think that they're safer with me. And
then the rest kind of resounded the same answer. And
went and talked with a few more.
They're - it all comes back to that Bible
again. I don't, I just don't know what to say. You
know, they all, they all quote to me and say things
like Isaiah 49 if you have a chance to talk with them
if any of them are parents, maybe they'll understand.
The last -- from verse 20 on to the end of the chapter
And they see it as a prophecy for the final days. And

6
they're hoping that they might connect with the
understanding there. -
JOHN DOLAN: How, how do you mean a prophecy
for the final days?
STEVE: Well, it talks about that how kings
and princes and so forth will come bending before and
bringing their children back to them. And it's a
prophecy for the last days seen in the light of the
Book of Revelation.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, you and I both know we're
just trying to bring this to a successful resolution
and peaceful without anybody, you or Judy or anybody
getting a single scratch. And, and that's what we're
working so hard on. You know that I mean. It's just,
it's just two people with the same goal and a different
route perhaps. But trying to come together somewhere
between the two tracks, you know, so that we can, we
can get somewhere. That's what you and I are trying to
do.
STEVE: Right.
92 JOHN DOLAN: And I appreciate your efforts
contacting those women.
STEVE: Right. It seems like there might
be - I don't know but it seems like there might be
something coming from David as to just what, what's
going on.

7
JOHN DOLAN: Like what?
STEVE: I'm hoping so. You know, like he
said originally to wait. And I'm just wondering
because it seems like someone went talk to him. I
haven't been able to get - I went and knocked at the
door and no one answered. So apparently he fell back
to sleep. But I was hoping to talk with him to see
just what's happening or, or if he has a socal1ed
answer. Of course, I'm interested in hearing. So I
don't know yet. But someone went to talk to him
earlier, and I haven't been able to talk to that person
yet.
JOHN DOLAN: You, you think I mean
straightforward now the, you know, man to man, you
think he's receiving some type of, of word or
something? I
STEVE: Well, yeah, I think I said earlier
that he mentioned something to me about a prophecy.
Remember I said he said something to me that God showed
him something in regards to a prophecy. And I went
like this, well, good. And he says no not so good. He
says you people should be sober meaning that a lot of
the people since this has happened --
I mean to us this is a serious thing. Not
only, you know, are the events that are happening day
by day here in this situation we're in. We're talking

8
about the world at large. We're talking about as in
the days of Noah people were eating and drinking, and
it was a beautiful day like any other day. People had
their religious beliefs.
But there was one word that one man said came
from God. A man was Noah. And he said there was going
to be a flood. The world says no, there won't be a
flood. Well, of course, they all drowned except for
the eight that were in the ark after the - I mean this
is God's word.
So Christ said 2,000 years ago as it was then
it will be in the final days. People will be marrying,
given in marriage, eating, drinking. That's today.
That's you and me, that's everybody. That's  in the
name of religion we all do this. We really have our
little beliefs in God and so forth.
But see these people are so serious as to the
time we live. There's always been calamity howlers, of
course. There's always been people saying we're in the
end. We're in the end. This century, last century,
every century. But the Bible has never ever before
this period of time had someone that could come along
and harmonize every book and every passage. Now that
sounds --
JOHN DOLAN: Well, that, that may be. And I
certainly couldn't argue the Bible with David. And for

that matter I couldn't argue it with you.
But the fact is that that place represents
someplace that the law enforcement authorities of, of
this world at least have to get to. And it's not
harmful to you in any sense, because what is on that
land, what is on that property, what is in that
residence is going to tell your story better than you
could, and, and, you know, you're very articulate.
Let's face it. And it's going to tell it because it's
evidence. It's evidence that's going to support what
occurred. We've got to get in there and get that to
tell your story. That's going to --
STEVE: Well, see, we don't - I, I
appreciate what you're saying, John. Because I
don't - and these people would not - they would
concur wholeheartedly to that statement. They really
would.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
. STEVE: See but the, the problem is coming
out, seeing these - okay, like it's an issue still.
The ATP. It you people were only involved that would
be a -- I mean but here --
JOHN DOLAN: We are only involved. I should
say only because --
STEVE: Well, what's the spokesperson Dan
Conroy --

10
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, that -- let me tell you
about that. That's what's called a joint press
conference. You know, when you, when you were watching
it or when you have it on, on the radio, it's a joint
press conference. Now if we didn't have ATF there,
they could wait until ours was over and go do their
own. I mean it's, it's really, you know, it's not
really material --
STEVE: But see, the concern is of course is
their involvement still and --
JOHN DOLAN: I understand that.
STEVE:  the statements are disseminating.
JOHN DOLAN: But that's, that's one of the
reasons that you've got to get out of there and turn
that over to the Texas Rangers for a few days --
STEVE: Here's - but here's the difference
though, John. We go into custody. They don't. The
ones that perpetrated this. The ones that attacked.
The ones that came with what kind of intent and
motives.
JOHN DOLAN: They are not going to be there
to do the, the crime scene. I guarantee you that. The
Texas Rangers, the state of Texas. And the Texas
Rangers go back, you know, a century. I mean they're
our heralded law enforcement state agency.
STEVE: Okay.

11
JOHN DOLAN: And they are going to do it.
And they're, they're not going to put their 100 years
or 150 years of dedicated, loyal service on the line
for anybody.
STEVE: The government - can you tell me
something?
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE: Has there ever been an FBI agent and
ATF agent ever gone up for murder or murdering a
citizen of America?
JOHN DOLAN: There's been FBI agents
arrested. There's been ATF agents arrested. There's
been FBI agents arrested for, for cocaine possession.
STEVE: Well, what about though for murder
in, in a line of like say like for instance --
JOHN DOLAN: Well, somebody - I don't know
one personally. Somebody passed me a note yes, there
has been. And as a matter of fact the story comes
back. It was an informant of this one guy. He had
worked up in the East Coast up in New England. And he
killed a woman. And he, and he worked in Kentucky.
And he went to jail for murder. He murdered an
informant.
As a matter of fact, I mean this is pretty
grisly. But I remember the, remember the
circumstances. He actually drove to the courthouse

12
with the woman's body in the trunk of his automobile
and he is in prison now.
STEVE: What, what - he was part of which
agency?
JOHN DOLAN: Our agency.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. I mean I'm telling you
the truth. I mean like I told you, I'd never lie to
you.
STEVE: How long ago did this take place?
JOHN DOLAN: This is approximately 2 years
ago. He was in Kentucky at the time. He took the
body. He actually went  the grisly part of this,
Steve, is he took the body out to the courtroom, drove
to the courtroom with the body in the trunk of his car
and then left the courthouse and drove out to some
field, distant field, and buried the body. I mean it's
tragic and it's said. But it's  but he was indicted
and convicted and is in prison.
You know, I mean this, this is a sad case.
But it's just a fact that law enforcement is not going
to stand for any wrongdoing. Look at Rodney King in
LA. You know what I mean? Those guys are indicted.
They've been indicted by the federal government. Yeah,
true, they were acquitted by a jury in Simi Valley,
California. But they're, you know, under indictment

13
now. They're under trial. In fact, I think the case
has gone to the, you know, the defenses now.
There was an ATP agent convicted in North
Carolina for attempting to murder a person. And he
died in prison.
So yes, people go to prison. The press is
going to help uncover any wrongdoing. But the Texas
Rangers are going to go into your property, do a crime
scene investigation, and there's nobody in this world
that can tell me that Texas Rangers are going to put
150 years of reputation on the line for this --
STEVE: Where are these people going to go
for say a month or more than a month? Because from
what I hear it will take a minimum of at least a month
or 30 days or so.
JOHN DOLAN: It's going to take some time.
And I'm sure the relatives, I'm sure the United
Kingdom, the British Embassy over here, the Australian
Embassy will arrange for their citizens. And there's
many, many people in the towns and relatives who will
arrange for lodging of the other people. So I don't
think that's going to be a problem. I think we can
work that out. That's not what you would call a real
serious problem.
But the thing is that property, that building
speaks to what happened. And, and like I said before,

14
the longer this goes on, the shell casings that were
fired on the outside are going to be lost in the dirt.
We don't want that to happen. We don't want that to
happen. So let's, let's get some movement on this, you
and me.
STEVE: Well, that's what I would have liked
to have done. That's why of course Wayne and I came
out the day before yesterday, because we raised
questions of concern not only in our own behalf but in
behalf of the people here. And Wayne and myself both
have waited for Byron's response. We thought we would
get clearly those answers to the questions as he said.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, he had a bunch of stuff
for you today, I know that.
STEVE: I must admit I was hoping to see
that. But instead when he got on the phone with me, he
was very strongly implying that we needed to all come
out, get in the vans and go away.
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE: You know, I mean but --
JOHN DOLAN: -- I think he was --
STEVE: -- let's do some of the things that
might bring that about first where we can look over
some information, understand a little bit of the
process and what we may have to go through. And, and
also have a little, few more questions answered about

15
those that began the full thing, what they're going to
go through or what they might go through in relation to
ourselves.
JOHN DOLAN: Steve, believe me, they are
going to go through a Congressional investigation by
the Congress of the United States. They are going to
go through an investigation by the, you know, the most
august body at least as far as subpoena powers, as far
as investigations in the United States. They're ~-
STEVE: Can I ask you --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. '
STEVE: I was going to ask you also. Did you
hear like we did through the press, through the
airwaves that first Sunday or Monday it was brought out
that a number of these ATP agents were in a bar
drinking and made a few statements about and laughter
and so forth and jest about how it was going to be
nothing, how they were going to come out here and do
what they were going to do to these people out here.
That was reported in the airwaves.
~ JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE: About a number of them being in a bar
drinking, and certain statements came out of their
mouths.
JOHN DOLAN: I didn't hear that personally.
But you know, if you do hear stuff like that, those are

16
things that the Congressional committees are going to
want and either tell us, tell me personally or make a
record of it of the station and the time and the
announcement or whoever it was reported by. Because
those are people that are going to be subpoenaed by the
Congressional committee.
I mean this, this is I mean historic in the
wrong sense of people being hurt and people losing
their life. It's historic though in the sense of, of
the absolute size of this thing. And --
STEVE: Can I ask you something --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah, anything.
STEVE: -- and try to be as straight and, and
honest with me as you can --
JOHN DOLAN: You're going to get that all the
time whether you like it or not.
STEVE: Okay. Okay. It was said in the
press conference yesterday the question was raised
about a British citizen who --
JOHN DOLAN: Yes.
STEVE:  who died. And that name was not
going to be given out until the relatives or the family
was notified.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: How did you people gain that
information?

17
JOHN DOLAN: How did we people -- how did me,
we personally gain?
STEVE: Where did you get the idea, or how
did you find out, or who told you that a person of
British extract or from Britain actually lost their
lives?
JOHN DOLAN: You mean Peter Gent?
STEVE: Peter Gent?
JOHN DOLAN: Is that who you're talking
about?
STEVE: No, I'm not. 'They're talking about
somebody from Britain. Peter Gent is an Australian.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, okay. They were confused.
They were talking -- they were referring to Peter Gent.
And Rex was mixed up on the nationality. But that's to
who --
STEVE: I was going to say that's so new to
me I was wondering who, now and where and --
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, no, no, no. That's Peter
Gent. That's Peter Gent. They misunderstood his,
mistakenly thought he was --
STEVE: All right. You -- the way they
phrased it and how they said it, it didn't come across
that it was any kind of a mistake at all.
JOHN DOLAN: No, he just, he just
misunderstood Australian for United Kingdom, for

..'18
British. No. That -- there's no, there's no like
additional body or something like that, no. That was
the Peter Gent thing. Yeah. No. That's, that's  it
was Peter Gent.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: Which, which you and I both
know. So that was no, no secret or anything like that.
I mean it's just --
STEVE: Well --
 Interference.!
JOHN DOLAN: Whoops.
STEVE: well, let's see now --
JOHN DOLAN: Let's move forward on something.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: How about you and I. we're back
together. Let's get --
STEVE: I was actually hoping now -- here's
what could have helped though. Here's what could have
helped even today. We had asked last night and I guess
apparently that is the answer when it was requested by
some of these people to hear a response by a dialogue
from this Professor or Dr. Arnold. And I guess that is
not going to be coming now with the Newsweek, with any
kind of a clear answers from Byron on the subject
matter that Wayne and I raised.
JOHN DOLAN: Byron had a bunch of stuff with

19
him that he was, that he brought out to the forward
command post that he was going to drop oft with you.
That I know. He had a copy of the, the search warrant
top where, you know, setting forth the location, all
that stuff that the search warrant --
STEVE: Definitely David would have been -- I
mean that would have probably helped for himself.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, yeah.
STEVE: He was definitely interested in
whatever they came supposedly with on that Sunday,
because they didn't have anything in their hands but
guns. He opened the door, popped his head out, looked
right at them, whoa.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: You know he even actually said the
word whoa. First he said --
JOHN DOLAN: who did?
STEVE: David. He says --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: - get back, we got women and
children. Let's talk, communicate. All ot a sudden
there was one shot from the outside. And we've heard
from the press that the ATP agent, two of them
acknowledged that someone accidentally or something
fired. And then the rest started shooting right
behind.

20
JOHN DOLAN: Well, you know, if that
happened, that's what you'd call a mitigating
circumstance. I mean that's not what you'd call
aggravating. Mitigating is lessening as you know. So
that's a mitigating circumstance. So let's get all
this facts out before the public. I know that, that
David is listening.
STEVE: But you know, I mean but this man
Conroy said today how he had, how one of the men came
to the door and knocked at the door and with the
warrant and so forth which was - I mean there's no
truth to it. So you know, there's no need for that
until like you say especially by the evidence as shown.
I mean --
JOHN DOLAN: We've been over this a hundred
times but --
STEVE: I know. Why don't you do
something --
JOHN DOLAN: -- but you know you, you and I
know --
STEVE: -- you want, you want to get this
thing moving a little bit? Let the people --
JOHN DOLAN: Let's get it moving.
STEVE: -- let, let the people see what gimg
and Newsweek has in there.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, what can we do to, to show

21
that it's a, it's a mutual, a two-way street? You
know, I'll try to do that on this end. What, what
can - listen. Let's do something --
STEVE: I -- it's so hard because I don't
have any - I mean I don't have the power to force
someone out of here. I do not have that power or
ability.
JOHN DOLAN: How about, how about the kids
that can't make their own decision, the, the --
STEVE: Well, of course, it comes down to the
mother. You know --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- if anything, I've got to appeal to
them.
JOHN DOLAN: How about David? Can he make a
decision on them?
STEVE: He definitely could.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: Definitely. Because a lot of those
are his children.
. JOHN DOLAN: How about the, how about the
gentlemen that were maybe a little overindulgent shall
we say? How about them?
STEVE: Well, apparently right now they're
waiting upon him. And he's definitely going to make a
statement to them. Now I don't know if it's going to

_,22
be today or tomorrow or when. But I expect that it's
going to be any time. I thought it might have already
come. And that's what I've been waiting for myself. I
know that it was happening, it was happening that
Saturday morning and Sunday it would have happened.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, how about Rita Riddle?
STEVE: I talked to her, and if you people
want, you know, I can put her on the phone anytime
you'd like or ask her to come to the telephone.
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE: And she can give her answer where
she's at right now. But basically I, I didn't talk to
her today. But I did talk to her yesterday. She says
now she chooses to wait. There's a couple things she
wants to know and to see.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: And I didn't get to ask her what they
were. She  I didn't speak with her at any length.
But I can go back to her and say well, what about today
or tomorrow? Are you willing or do you want to go out?
If you did, it might get some things speeded up or the
process going.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: You know, I can ask her that again.
But you know, that's basically all I can do.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. We really, you and I, I

23
want to get together, and I want to be able to go to
the commanders here and say look. Steve and I are
working together. Sure there were some rough spots not
between him and me but some other circumstances. But
here's what we've put together. I think that would go
a big, long way just like Byron said. How about
talking, maybe putting Rita on tonight. How about
Kevin? What's his status?
STEVE: Yeah, I, you know, I can ask any one
of these people --
JOHN DOLAN: Well, how, how about --
STEVE: -- and, and possibly they might be
willing to get on the phone with whoever might be on
there this evening.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, how about Kevin? Would he
be interested in, in departing do you think?
STEVE: It's, it's always possible. See I
mean -'
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum. Have you spoken to
Kevin lately?
STEVE: No, in honesty I haven't. It's --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: - been a couple days now.
JOHN DOLAN: How about Brad?
STEVE: Brad, I talked to him last night but
not about leaving. Not about departing.

24
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: He was busy, and it was a couple
other things and so I haven't really spent any  you
know, I guess I was pretty tired yesterday and last
night.
JOHN DOLAN: I know you mentioned this
morning about 20 or 30 people coming. What, what --
STEVE: Well, that was in -- that's what I
was talking about. I hope you people don't
misunderstand. This was in relation to what would have
taken place Sunday, this past Sunday, after you began
what you did with me, our talking. And that was
partially as a, as a response to what some of these
individuals did while they were here that first Sunday
when that took place about getting into hard liquor.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: And things of that nature which we
don't do. We've had it on the premises. People have
given it to us. It's been put away. But then because
of what happened that day, some went and got it out and
indulged in it. And for that - see, we don't do that
as a body, as a people.
JOHN DOLAN: You know, I'm not saying
anything negative against any of those people
specifically. Because that's not my program. But you
probably, you know, it somebody's in there like that,

O Q
25
that's probably -- those people would be better off
outside anyway.
STEVE: Well, this is what David said. See,
this is what he's actually suggested strongly to them.
And so have I. And even in regards to myself, I was
watching what was happening that Saturday. I was about
ready to come out Sunday, Monday myself.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, that's -- hey, that's
still, that's still, you know, I'd love that y
personally. Anytime you want to do that, that would be
great. You know what I mean? So you just let me know.
STEVE: Yeah, it's -- well, you know, I mean
that's what I -- I guess there were some really good
things happening those few days talking with you. And,
and it just --
JOHN DOLAN: Like --
STEVE: -- it blew me away though, that
Friday night and Saturday. And I'm trying to
recover --
JOHN DOLAN: Like you said --
STEVE: -- myself from it and --
JOHN DOLAN: I, I appreciate that. I
appreciate it. And don't think there was a lack of
feeling on my part because there wasn't. You know what
I mean?
STEVE: I'm sure. But it --

26
JOHN DOLAN: But, but like --
STEVE: -- it gave me more distrust in the
people that are over you that have the final say so
and --
JOHN DOLAN: well, like I said --
STEVE: -- I've got to wonder what their
motives are, what they're up to, if it's just numbers,
and let's get this damn thing done, and let's go on to
our normal business pursuing whatever. Let us look
good before the press and the world.
JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no. The whole --
really, forget about that. The whole thing here is to
get everyone, and I stress everyone, yourself, David,
children, peacefully unhurt. Those are the bottom
lines. I mean, you know, that's the bottom line.
That's the essence of why we're talking. You know, if
that weren't the essence of why we're here, there would
have been something, you know, a long time ago. But
it's not happening.
But you got to understand, it's been 18 days.
That's a long, long, long, long time, you know. So --
STEVE: Well, you got to remember to us, you
know, I mean there's always this overwhelming
conviction of the reason why we're here in the first
place. I mean I can't put --
JOHN DOLAN: I understand. I - look,

27
believe me.
STEVE: Go ahead. And I --
JOHN DOLAN: I understand your --
STEVE: Like David, oh, today, John, David
laid it out so clear to Byron about how he, he felt for
even the commanders because he knows they've got a job
to do. He knows you people are doing the best - I
mean he said that to Byron. You people  he knows
you're doing the best. He would expect you to do what
you're doing.
But he says at the same time he says there's
somebody he's got to yet answer to that he's been
answering to since '85. And he can do nothing else.
Now he says the people are different. But
it's their freedom of choice. It's, it's their
conscience that they've got to look to and weigh out
the
and
you
But
run
Godissues here. So you know, he will not  he can --
say look you - there's some he can actually say,
know, get out of here. And --
JOHN DOLAN: Look, I'm not a Bible expert.
just the thought just crossed my mind. I want to
it by you. Do you remember about the thing when
was talking to somebody who had a coin. And he was
showing him --
STEVE: Render unto Caesar that thing that is
Caesar and to God the things God.

2a
JOHN DOLAN:  Caesar and to God the things
that are God. Hey, I think that's a real good analogy
for this situation. We respect, I personally respect
your right to worship or to not worship as ever you
choose, whatever you choose. That's totally -- thank
God it is your and our right.
STEVE: But John, what if that God says wait,
don't move. And that's a test of faith to ourselves.
JOHN DOLAN: I appreciate that but --
STEVB: In relation to eternal loss or life.
JOHN DOLAN: But by the same token you must
render to Caesar the things that are Caesar. That --
STEVE: Only after God though. Because if
you look at all the Commandments of, of the Bible,
all --
JOHN DOLAN: They're not in conflict.
They're absolute - we're not in conflict with --
STEVE: The New Testament especially shows
though the government of God is beyond any other thing
and, and one has to answer to God first. Because you
and I know there's been tyranny all over the world for
throughout the history of man.
JOHN DOLAN: But that - no, the point is
here that that crime scene belongs to Caesar. In this
case, it belongs to the Texas Rangers. That crime
scene is going to speak for you. That's not going to

29
hurt you.
STEVE: The issue -- see this is, this is
what David was opening up to Byron the deeper issues of
how this so-called religious thing that we're involved
in is actually a political thing. Because the God --
JOHN DOLAN: But it's not a --
STEVE: -- no, but the God --
JOHN DOLAN: -- it's not a constant.
STEVE: - of that book talks about the
governments of the world in the final days, what's
going to come of them. And when the statement is made
in Revelation 18 in the final and last days of this
earth's history, when you look at Revelation 18, that's
the condition you and I are in right now where the
whole world is considered to be Babylon. Comes from
the, the Hebrew word babel which means confusion.
Everybody thinks they know God. Everybody
says Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. But one's works nor the
understanding from that book called the Bible can they
open up and show nor do they understand. Our -- my
lifestyle --
i JOHN DOLAN: Hey.
STEVE: -- doesn't show it. No one's does.
JOHN DOLAN: Steve, your right to practice
your religion --
STEVE: But --

30
JOHN DOLAN: - is absolutely paramount.
STEVE: Well, well, let me just say --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Go ahead.
STEVE:  the concern being though,
Revelation 18 shows a time when there's a rich, rich
nation that has everything. And it goes on to say in
the last few verses that the merchants in the final
days of earth's history where the great men of the
world, of the earth and by their sorceries, their
advertisements and so forth, their psychologies, they
deceived all of mankind. That's the day you and I live
in.
And there's awesome powers that are involved
in the government you and I have been part of that were
founded by Jefferson and Washington and Madison, these
men that had such a love for freedom and freedom of
conscience. They had come from a corrupt, black, dark
ages of where religion ruled over the hearts and minds
of men through politics. So this country was founded
on such a guarantee of freedoms. And those first four
amendments are so important. But yet we've seen the
abuse of that like good, patriotic Americans have been
watching over the last decades. And you and I --
JOHN DOLAN: Steve --
STEVE: - you and I are both involved. But
the Bible ahead of time shows these things. It shows a

31
small group of people that God raises up that have
nothing but honesty about their life in this world,
about what's been shown to them and their reaction to
that. And thereby, their salvation is determined how
that they're going to be honest with themselves, with
God and with their fellow man. And the thing --
JOHN DOLAN: Steve, one thing I want --
STEVE:  that's what we're trying to do,
John.
JOHN DOLAN: I know, Steve. One thing I like
about you is your idealism. You're an idealistic
person. And that's absolutely great. And I respect
and admire that. And a lot of people are idealistic.
And that's great. Now your idealism has got to come
through in this situation, and it's got to come through
and bring this situation to a resolution. You --
STEVE: Oh, well, I don't believe, you know,
in honesty that that would ever happen. Not in this
world. Not with the conditions. I believe there is a
spirit of God and a spirit of this world called Satan.
And in the majority of us, all of us, just like in
Revelation 13, it says John saw all the world wonder
after the beast and worship the dragon. The dragon is
Satan. That means me also.
We've all worshipped the flesh and the senses
and what we have, what the eyes can see, what the

32
fingers can feel, what we can hear with our ears. All
of us are caught up in today, not looking to the next
world, not catching the vision about what God would
want you and I to have, something that's everlasting.
So ---
JOHN DOLAN: Steve, wait a minute --
STEVE:  so see, this is, this is the --
these are the things that are part of the subject
matter we're talking about.
JOHN DOLAN: Absolutely. But they're not --
they - they're not mutually exclusive. They're not
mutually exclusive at all. You can practice your faith
outside of your present residence. There's no -- it
doesn't matter where you are. You have your faith. It
you go back to Hawaii, you're going to be there and
practice your faith. It doesn't have to be at a
specific location. Your faith is anywhere you are.
STEVE: See, you don't - that's what you
don't understand. This is why John or I mean not John
but Byron was --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah.
STEVE: - asked by David hours ago it he
would not give him some time to open up some things
directly to him as a human being, as a person.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. What --
STEVE: And, and it dealt with the --

..¢.~92 |
33
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: - political, and it dealt with the
very issues that revolve around the situation that
we're in right now.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: And his involvement in that as in
relation to what God's word said thousands of years
ago. And he was saying to him that it was something he
needed to see for his own gaining of information for
salvation.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: Now whether he buys it or not. I
mean a person can never -- you can never really give an
honest judgment of anything unless you've listened
carefully through as it's presented, evaluated, and
then give it a verdict.
JOHN DOLAN: Umhum.
STEVE: So this is what David was basically
telling Byron. I'd give anything in this world. You
as a person. I really do like you. David would say he
loves you. But I don't have that kind of insight. I
think I love myself more than anybody. Not, not that I
chose to be that way. But it's just innate in
everybody.
JOHN DOLAN: I know.
STEVE: But, but I like you as a person. I

134
can honestly say that. I'd give anything in this world
if you could hear the logic, the rationalization laid
out by the scriptures shown to you.
We're in the final days. These events that
are taking place right now. Since when in the history
of America - can you tell me when our government which
you're involved in has brought tanks against its own
people. Literally tanks. This is in the Book of Nahum
the prophet when he sees chariots with flaming torches.
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE: It's, it's three chapters. If you
ever have the time, read the Book of Nahum and see that
it's in our day. Take a look at the part you might be
playing and the part that maybe I'm involved in here.
And don't + you don't have to stretch your imagination
just too far. But that prophet was shown something
about the final days of earth's history.
So take a look at that. Go real slow through
it. Maybe you can tell me what you think about it
tomorrow.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, you and I have an
obligation, both of us have an obligation. We've got
an obligation to ourselves. But more importantly we've
got an obligation to other people. You in a way
represent a lot of folks in there. And you have an
obligation to the people that respect you in the sense

35
that you're their spokesperson.
STEVE: well, see that's, that's as far as
that goes. I mean it's a different thing with them and
David than it is --
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- with themselves and me.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Just, just for
information. You, you were saying before that, that
David, that somebody was speaking to David. Could you
run that by me again?
STEVE: Byron was.
JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no. I mean somebody
within, within the, within the building there was
speaking to David. About something.
STEVE: Oh, man. I don't even remember.
When did I say that?
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, the, the -- about something,
he was getting something. But it was maybe not good.
You know, something --
STEVE: Oh, oh. when I was  when I went --
when_I talked to him, see, after --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. 4 
STEVE: -- I talked to Byron --
JOHN DOLAN: Right.
STEVE: -- I told him I'd call back at 4
o'clock. And I went to speak from only briefly. And

{36
because number one, I was concerned, because when David
got on the phone with him, it sounded pretty good to
me. I heard what David was saying. But I, I knew, I
could tell that David was cut oft. And then for long
periods of time, there's no question Byron was doing
all the talking.
And then toward the end of the conversation I
could tell David needed to use the facilities. He kept
on saying that. And finally he just had
He handed me the phone. And then when I
phone to my ear and heard what Byron wasto get off.
put my, the
saying about
coming out, it was obvious to me that Byron had heard
nothing that David had said. One was in one mind set.
The other had his mind on - I mean no question about
it.
So I mean I get the telephone,
what's going on here. So then of course
get back to him at 4 o'clock and went to
for a moment there. I, I heard him makeand I'm well,
I told him I'd
see David just
the comment
something about that God had showed him a prophecy.
And I went oh, good. And he said no, it's not good.
And I says oh. And that's when he said to me we're to
be very sober.
Well, I mean that's the way God's people are
to be. If, it the end times are here, the world is
winding down, there's subject matters that people --

37
judgment always revolves around a word called truth,
John.
JOHN DOLAN: I know but Steve --
STEVE: Truth. Whatever truth is --
JOHN DOLAN: You'll forgive me for saying
this. But I, you know, my own beliefs are not that the
world is going to end. And I, I --
STEVE: I know they - I, I can --
JOHN DOLAN: -- I don't think your role --
STEVE: -- I detect that when I first talked
to you. I've detected that all the way through. It's
just like in the days of Noah. Of course, there's not
really in this world, you know, you only had eight
people that survived out of literally billions.
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: In the days of Sodom and Gomorrah you
had five major cities of the plain. Only three people
survived that. The days of Noah, out of 2 to 3 million
people that came out of Egypt following Moses, only two
went into the promised land.
JOHN DOLAN: Did you ever hear this thing
sometimes you get so close to the forest you can't see
the trees?
STEVE: I expected you to say something like
that.
JOHN DOLAN: You did? Okay. I can really

38
see you in Hawaii or some other place. And I don't see
the end of the world ending for you. I think there's a
great future for you. You know, I mean really, there's
a great future for a lot of people including you and
me. So it's not  I mean let's look on the optimistic
side. Let's say that one of us is wrong. Okay, if, if
I'm wrong, then the end of the world is here. And then
it's kind of a moot issue. But, but if, if you're, if
you're wrong and I'm right, then there's a great future
ahead. So let's, you know, let's give it half a shot
each way and say hey, look. Maybe it's not the end of
the world.
STEVE: Okay, I'll tell you, it sounds good.
It sounds good. So you give me as much time and you
talk to me, and I'll listen very carefully. I'll
listen very carefully. But then you give me the same
amount of time to respond. Because my first interest,
my priority is the information that of course it
doesn't appear like you really care to hear.
JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no. No, no, no.
There's no time limit. This, this is not a --
STEVE: But, but you understand. Because I'm
interested in you. I'm interested in your living
forever. I'd like to see you in eternity with your own
planet, you populating a whole planet, traveling
throughout the expanses of space. Not dying. Not

39
having sorrow and sadness or disease. This is what all
the prophets talk about.
Now if such a thing is possible, I'm
interested, John. I'm interested. But it it's only a
fairy tale, what a fool I've been. Is that true? What
a fool. What foolishness to even worry about such a
pie in the sky. But, but at this time because of all
the research I've done from the time I was small and
the philosophies of men the religions of men, I have
seen more consistent answers from that one source book
than any other place.
So this is the reason why I would give
anything if you could give me just a few minutes. I'd
open up something to you. You would see a repetition
of mankind's response to the word of God from, for
6,000 years. For 6,000 years. You would see clearly
what salvation has been in every generation, what God's
going to do in the final generation. And it's out of
the common order of things. It's contrary to what man
feels, his opinions, his theories.
. But the question comes down to is it God's
word or not? Or this - or is this just a bunch of
nonsense? were these prophets eating pizza late at
night, and they had some bad dreams and wrote them
down? Possibly. Possibly.
But see this is where I'm at. I, I don't

40
think so. I see too strong of a consistency. I see
it's, it's a relation and an outcome of the history of
the past. I see it's right on time. There's a
timetable there. And in every generation God says do
you know the day of your visitation, the day of your
judgments.
well, I believe I do know the day of the
judgments of the generation you and I live in. I.do
know what God's going to pour upon this world and why
he's going to do it and how you and I can be free of
those judgments. But not if you're ignorant. Not if
you choose to be ignorant of them.
JOHN DOLAN: Steve --
STEVE: But you would never know unless you
gave yourself time as a human being to hear something
about it.
JOHN DOLAN: That's true. And, and you make
a point about that --
STEVE: But I don't want to convert you. I
don't want to -- 
JOHN DOLAN: I appreciate that. I --
STEVE: -- if, if you say, it you say in
honesty, Steve, I'm not interested, I'd say that's
fine. I'll not bring it up to you again. _
JOHN DOLAN: I don't mean that we can't touch
upon that or we can't go into that again. I'm not

41
saying that. But, but I'm just saying that I don't
believe -- and correct me if I'm wrong. Because you
know, I'm open to listen to anything. I don't see how
you coming out of there, getting on with the rest of
your life and getting, getting, you know, ATP to answer
these charges, I don't see how that is in contradiction
to any of your beliefs.
STEVE: Can you do me a big favor then?
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
STEVE: I'm glad you raised that. Could you
tomorrow if I ask David just for - you can tell me how
much time, a half hour maybe, would you allow -- I'd
like to have that answered by David to you.
JOHN DOLAN: I'll talk to David. I'll be
happy to. I'll be pleased to.
STEVE: But of course, you're going to be
leaving there now, and he's sleeping right now so --
' JOHN DOLAN: He's sleeping now. So maybe --
STEVE: Yeah. Yeah.
JOHN DOLAN: -+ maybe that's good timing.
You know, maybe we can - maybe I can talk to him
tomorrow or --
STEVE: Well, that sounds good to me.
JOHN DOLAN: All right. But --
STEVE: And how can we work out this thing
about  I would like to still have the answers, the

42
information that Byron picked up on the warrant.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, Byron, Byron wanted to
come down and meet with you today. He wanted to bring
you that stuff down. Do you, do you want to set up a
face-toface meeting with you guys?
STEVE: Not right now. Maybe tomorrow. And
1....
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE:  and I don't want to be rushed
about it. Because I'll tell you the truth. I'm ill at
ease about it. I am.
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE: I don't know if it's intuition. I'm
not sure.
JOHN DOLAN: Let me, let me tell you
something. You know, let me guarantee your safety. Me
personally guarantee your safety personally. I --
STEVE: Then in a meeting with him.
JOHN DOLAN: - that's a personal guarantee.
Yeah.
STEVE: In a meeting with him.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. That's a personal
guarantee. I mean that's absolutely total --
STEVE: See, I get the --
JOHN DOLAN: -- professionals.
STEVE: - okay. I get the feeling at times

43
with the push of these commanders and some of the
things they want to do and accomplish that one of these
times they're going to want to do something or --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Now you just, just let's
face -- what would they want to do?
STEVE: I have no idea.
JOHN DOLAN: You mean --
STEVE: I mean I have no idea. You know, I'm
a person has --
JOHN DOLAN: You mean like, like --
STEVE: -- spent the majority of my life in
the --
JOHN DOLAN: Well, then --
STEVE: -- realms of religion and not in
tactics and things --
JOHN DOLAN: NO, no, no.
STEVE: -- of that nature.
JOHN DOLAN: No, no. I mean how's that going
to look to 101 and 104 other people or how many of the
people if something like that happened? I mean talk
about destroying credibility in one quick second
though.
STEVE: Well, that it would do for sure. I
mean there's --
JOHN DOLAN: Sure. I mean we're trying to
build it back --

44
STEVE: - I mean I will tell you, I will
tell you this. That if something like that ever
happened, of course it would all over. It really would
be. It would be all over.
JOHN DOLAN: Nothing like that is ever going
to happen. You have my personal John to Steve
absolutely personal guarantee. I mean --
STEVE: In that case, I will give it a lot of
thought --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: - about doing exactly that tomorrow
then. I'll, I'll be talking with you first about it --
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Talk to -- we'll talk
first. We'll talk first. But let's, let's get back to
something else.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: You can understand what Byron
told you today as far as kind of the thing that he was
gravitating toward. And, and I understand where you're
at on the position. You know, I understand where
you're at. But by the same token, people prior to
whatever, 6, 7, you know, years of age really don't
make their own decisions. You know what I mean?
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN DOLAN: So you know, maybe if because of
circumstances they're, they're, you know, in a sense

-.. _92
45
held hostage to timing.
STEVE: Well, here's what I could do for you
in that, in that wise. More than probably anything
else tomorrow when I start talking with you, I'll go
and try to get a hold of these women and see if they
won't all or at least the majority talk with you.
JOHN DOLAN: All right, fine.
STEVE: How's that?
JOHN DOLAN: Fine. Or you can talk, talk to
the fellows that will be here tonight.
STEVE: Okay --
JOHN DOLAN: How's that?
STEVE: But I'll tell you what. They, they
like me --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: -- like the way you are. I'll be
honest with you. Some of these other guys, Mike and
John the 3, they all mean well. They're not in the
same place as you are. You've got an easy personality,
an easy way about you. There's no pushing us. One
doesn't feel threatened and so forth. But honestly
there's a better rapport with yourself than the
majority.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Well, look. Let's --
STEVE: So I mean these other guys --
JOHN DOLAN: -- let's leave it --

46
STEVE: -- it's fine. But I, I actually --
JOHN DOLAN: Okay.
STEVE: -- prefer talking with yourself. Now
Byron, I know he means well. He's been an agent for a
lot of years. He came across very well, very sincere.
I believe he believes he's doing the best thing. I
know that he believes that. And I give him credit for
that. But of course, he came across very strong and
pushy. -
JOHN DOLAN: Um-hum.
STEVE: Very, you know, like, like come on
out. And, and if anything, that has a negative effect
on these people. It has -- if anything it scares them
or gets them wondering what's going on so --
JOHN DOLAN: Well, he, he cares deeply. And
we all have different --
STEVE: I know he does. I know he does.
JOHN DOLAN:  approaches to life. And he,
he --
STEVE: I know he does.
JOHN DOLAN: - only has one interest. And,
and that's, that's safe, the safety of everyone. And
we all have different ways of approaching things. But
that's --
STEVE: That's true.
JOHN DOLAN: Trust me. Trust me in that

47
sense that you can look him in the eye, and you know
how he's feeling in his heart.
He wants you to be out safely.So that's just his way.
You and everyone else.
STEVE: I believe that. I totally, truly do
believe that about him. I do.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. So that's it. Okay. Why
don't, why don't you talk to those people. The fellows
will be here tonight. Establish some rapport,
whatever, however -- "
STEVE: Well, I really don't -- the truth of
it is I really don't want to do anymore talking this
evening until tomorrow when I call you. What time are
you going to be there?
JOHN DOLAN: I'll be
early. I'll, I'll be here --
STEVE: Well, I, you
JOHN DOLAN: Sure.
' STEVE: -- I'll tell
up late. I really am. I'm upin early. I'll be in
know, I need some --
you what. I'm usually
late. A lot of things
always have to be settled and taken care of. But I'll
be calling you as soon as I can for sure. Usually it's
never before 9 because of an hour of worship that we
have of study and so forth.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Steve, you know that, you
know very much that I'm a straight shooter with you in
that --

n 9
48
STEVE: Yes, I do.
JOHN DOLAN: -- I tell you shoulder to
shoulder what it's about.
STEVE: I believe that.
JOHN DOLAN: And that's the truth. I, I
would feel absolutely like I was deceiving you if I
just didn't tell you the truth. The commanders here
are looking for some forward progress. And if I didn't
tell you that, I'd feel like I was, I was lying to a
friend. I'm going to tell --
STEVE: Do you know something? I'll tell you
what. I have so much trust in you and I, I tell you
what. If you ever wanted, not that you would even
consider it. But I could guarantee if you ever wanted
to come and talk with me even here in this building,
that is possible. You would not be harmed. I'd give
you the word. I'd give you right on my life, whatever.
JOHN DOLAN2 I  Steve, I believe that
totally. I believe that totally. I don't have the
slightest doubt of trust with you. Not the slightest
doubt. But I'm just saying that I wouldn't sleep well
tonight if I didn't tell you what I just told you that
the commanders here are looking for some positive
signs. And you can understand where they're coming
from. And I'm not talking about the guys here. I'm
talking about Washington, D.C.

49
STEVE: Well, remember what David said now.
And the people, you know, they consider the things he
says. If they want to rush it, if they want to push
or --
JOHN DOLAN: No, no, no.
STEVE: - wait now. But listen to me. It
they want to do anything like that, it will come to the
place where he'll just say well, do what you got to do.
Now always keep that in mind. Because that is the way
he is. And there are those that when they listen to
what he's saying they feel and believe the same thing.
They - he says you give these people time and it will
happen. And that's why it started taking place with
your workings with these people, myself with them last,
at the last part of last week. So I mean --
JOHN DOLAN: Well, we're trying to get back
to that. You and I --
STEVE: Right. So let's --
JOHN DOLAN: -- are trying to get back to
that.
STEVE: -- let's do that. But you know, they
gave a little time there. That's the whole thing. They
got to realize that. And even though this has added
more in, in overall in weeks, it shouldn't have. So
maybe we can get back. And that's what we're, of
course we're trying to do.

50
JOHN DOLAN: Trying to do. Okay. How about
if, if the people who are thinking about leaving speak
to some of the fellows who are here tonight and, and
let them --
' STEVE: Okay. It won't do any  I mean I'll
tell you ahead of time, I don't think it will do any
good. I could go try to get a hold of them, see if
they want to talk with them. But I already know, I've
listened to Mike. I've listened to - who else would
there be maybe? Probably Mike then, huh?
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Mike, Mike will be here.
STEVE: Well, Mike, you know, he came across
okay. But he didn't have the  I --
JOHN DOLAN: John Cox will be here tonight.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN DOLAN: John's a real good guy.
STEVE: Well, what do they have to offer?
Because David is still, you know, he's bothered because
of the statement you and John Cox made about the
Eewsweeg, 115;, and now you're using that. And no
one's going to come out now until --
JOHN DOLAN: We're not, we're not using that
personally.
STEVE: Well, look. Until that is dropped
oft as far as David's concerned, you won't even have
really his attention for coming out or him encouraging

O a O
A 51
anybody to come out. He just -- he sees that they went
back on their word, whoever was over yourself and
stopped that from taking place. So I mean that's where
it is with himself. Clearly that's where it is.
And he still if ever you wanted to really
touch him also, he never got to see the warrant that
was supposedly going to even be given to him.
JOHN DOLAN: The which?
STEVE: The warrant for both the search
warrant and the rest.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, oh. Byron had - yeah.
Byron had that with him today. Byron had to let that
down there.
STEVE: Well, it's a shame he didn't just
leave it over by the where the dropoff point is. It's
a shame he didn't leave the Newsweeks. Because today
they could have gone, looked at that, listened to that.
They could have  if they had a tape like you said by
Arnold, they'd have listened to that. It would have
made I think, and you guys don't have to believe me,
but then we're more getting nowhere.
JOHN comm: No -- you --
STEVE: We're actually getting nowhere if
they don't drop oft some of these things that they
already implied they would.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, maybe you guys could meet
'92

52
tomorrow, and he could bring all that down and show you
and --
STEVE: But it they want to use it as
something as bargaining or trading, it's not going to
happen. Because --
H JOHN DOLAN: No, his intention --
STEVE: - who wants to walk out because
somebody hands a couple of - we - no one cares about
newspapers and magazines. There's a Bible that's
already been written about the future.
JOHN DOLAN: Yeah. Steve, his, his intention
was to bring down those items, meet with you and give
them to you. It wasn't, it wasn't any exchange. It
was just to show you --
STEVE: Well, that's not what he implied,
Byron anyway, from what I understood.
JOHN DOLAN: Oh, may have misunderstood
something. But I thought he was just going to drop
them off --
STEVE: No, it sounded like it was now an
exchange. It's not going to happen now. And I, I
heard that very well. I heard it very clear.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay, I thought he was just
going to --
STEVE: I believe John might have said it,
John 3.

53
JOHN DOLAN: John 3?
STEVE: Oh, somebody made that statement. It
was Byron or John-3 that it, let me let you know it's
not going to happen. They're not going to be given
until you come out or someone comes out.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, hey. You know, I know we
can all get hung up on little issues. And we don't
want to do that. We want to move forward, you know.
STEVE: Well, give these people something to
think about other than -- I mean they have nothing new
to look at or think about. Unless of course they get
on the -- they will -- you would have a better chance
with them than anybody else. Believe me. I'm not just
saying that. Believe me.
JOHN DOLAN: Well --
STEVE: If the way you present yourself, the
way you come across. If you want, I'll try to get
these people to get on with maybe Mike. But I'm
telling you, it will make it worse than if you talk to
them and they, and they just waited until the morning.
JOHN DOLAN: Well, what do you -- let me ask
you something. I --
STEVE: I'm -- I, I know --
JOHN DOLAN: -- yeah, I tell you how I --
STEVE: -- I've'been around these people a
lot. I know.
v
1

1
O 5
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. I tell you how I feel,
and you tell me how you teal. All right?
1--STEVE: A11 right.
JOHN DOLAN: Okay. Let's say that you and
 End of tape 9x.!