APPEARANCES:

1 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: 2 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OTHER APPEARANCES: OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 12, 2019 FENTON TRANSCRIPTION 28720 Roadside Drive, Suite 250 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 991-8002 3 4 1 : Today is Monday, August 1 Basis. Do you have any questions about this 2 3 12. The following will be a voiiiiiii interview of BOP Warden in 2 3 form? : No. 4 furtherance of OIG investigation to be 4 : Would you like time to 5 determined, for the purpose of transcription, 5 review it with an attorney, or would you like 6 will now identify all present in the interview. 6 an attorne here? 7 I'll ask everyone to say and spell their last 7 : For now, I don't need an 8 name, as well as identify their working title 8 attorne . 9 and employer. 9 : Okay. Are you currently 10 I am S ecial Agent , 10 under the influence of any substances, or is 11 Office of the Insiector General. 11 there any reason to prevent you from fully 12 : Special Agent , 12 understanding my questions and answering 13 I, with the FBI. 13 truthfull toda ? 14 . , Warden, 14 : No. 15 Federal Bureau of Prisons. Selling of the 15 : I'll now swear you to the 16 name is first name is , last name is 16 statements you're about to make. Please raise 17 18 . apostrophe as in , Ilis in 17 18 your hand and re.eat after me. I 19 : Thank you. Warden 19 . I, . 20 -- 20 : Hereby solemnly swear or 21 : Um-hum. 21 affirm. 22 : -- you have reviewed and 22 : Hereby solemnly swear or 23 signed Department of Justice OIG Form 226-2 23 affirm. 24 which is Warnings and Assurances of Employees 24 : That the statements that 25 Request to Provide Information on a Voluntary 25 I'm about to make. EFTA00064519 S 6 1 2 3 4 S 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about to make. : That the statements I'm : Shall be the truth and the whole truth. : Shall be the truth and the whole truth. NE Thank you, sir. Um-hum. : Warden would you mind telling us a little bit about your career with BOP? When you started, how you became a Warden? Uh : How you moved up the ranks. : I started out as a Correctional Officer, and I was promoted to a Lieutenant. From there, I went to Special Investigative Agent at our regional office, and then I went from there, I was promoted to Captain, and then I was Associate Warden, and then from there I went to DC as a Chief Internal Affairs, and now in my present position. : Great. How long have you 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 been the Warden? 2018. : Okay, great. Just, your role, you've done a lot of internal investigations with the prison and you've worked with the Department of Justice for -- Um-hum. -- moving forward, just as a note for the record, you're aware that failure to be honest with us today would be considered a criminal offense; correct? Yes. : Okay, great. Let's talk a little bit about some overall policies at the prison to start with. Okay. : So, actually let me back up. We're here today to talk about, specifically Jeffrey Epstein. : Um-hum. : The inmate. : Um-hum. : Would you mind just telling us a little bit about when, your : I've been here since May of 7 1 understanding of when he arrived and that type 2 of, when he arrived, how he was placed, where 3 he was laced and the reasons behind that? 4 : I don't remember the S specific date he arrived, but we didn't, what 6 happened was, we weren't told that he was going 7 to be comin to the institution. 8 : Okay. 9 : When he initially came, he 10 was dropped off on the weekend, and we didn't 11 find out until Monday, myself, that he had been 12 placed at the institution. And from then on, 13 we, you know, went through the whole process of 14 the screening, his medical stuff. Just normal 15 procedures that we follow and (Indiscernible 16 *00:04:04 . 17 : Okay. Now when you say 18 "he was dropped off over the weekend", when 19 somebody arrives at the facility, what's the 20 normal -- 21 : I mean typically if 22 somebod 's that high profile -- 23 : Um-hum. 24 : -- we should've been 25 notified and said hey, he's coming in. We 8 1 weren't. 2 : Okay. 3 MEI You know, I mean, we saw it 4 on the news, but it didn't say. They just said S they had him in custody, but we didn't get any 6 formal, I didn't get any formal notice that he 7 had been brought into the institution. 8 So, he was dropped off, and you know, the 9 Lieutenant on shift processed him in and 10 brought him into the institution. We didn't 11 find out or realize it until Monday. 12 : So, it was Monday that you 13 first were officially made aware of it? 14 : That I was made aware. You 15 know, we found out, and I don't remember if it 16 was from looking at the news reports, we put it 17 together that he had been brought into the 18 institution. We went through our Monday 19 morning meeting that we went through. So, 20 that's when -- 21 : When he first arrived, was 22 he placed in general population? Do you know 23 where he was laced? 24 : I don't recall where he was 25 placed when he came in. EFTA00064520 9 10 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 population? 20 21 22 23 24 25 : At some point, he was placed in Special Housing Unit? Yes. Known as the SHU. Right. : how did he end up there? : Well, he was a new commitment. He was high profile. So, we placed him in the Special Housing Unit so we can further evaluate, you know, his status. Is he ready for general population? And we do that with all inmates, but -- EMIOkay. -- and then to see, okay, any separation issues. Any threats to him, before we put him out there in general population. : Was he ever in general : I don't recall. I don't, I'm not sure if it might've been the first day when he came in. Er Okay. But I'm not sure, so I mean, I would have to look at the 37 to confirm. 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : But as far as you know, that Monday, the first business day after the weekend he was initially dropped off. Right. : From that point forward, was he ever in eneral population? No. : Okay. What are the policies in terms of, or is there policy that dictates when somebody goes into general population from the SHU after the first arrival? : Well, what we do is we evaluate the individual to see if they're ready for general population, if they can hang, you know -- . Um-hum. -- if they can populate. : Okay. And it's a number of factors. It depends. I mean, if I have a gang member coming in, I'm taking into consideration separation issues on it. If it's, you know, somebody that might've been fraud or bank fraud, then we determine if it's any issues of 11 1 them going into the general population. So, 2 it's a case-by-case basis on how we determine 3 it. 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 : Okay. What are the policies in terms of when you're notified if someone enters Special Housing Unit or is dischar ed from Special Housing Unit? : Well what it is is, it's routed the individual, it's called a Release Form. So, several people sign it. They review it. I believe psychology, CMC, the Captain, and it goes to the Associate Warden and then they sign what we call is a Kick-Out. Meaning everybody's reviewed it and said, okay, this person is a ro riate for general population. : Okay. For Mr. Epstein, after that, he was never put in general population• correct? a No. : Was the determination to keep him in Special Housing? What was the communication that goes on there? : Well we, now initially when he came in, it's the goal to determine, okay, can they go to general population. 12 1 : Okay. 2 So, between evaluating him, 3 at the same time, we're looking at saying, 4 okay, can he o to general population. S : Um-hum. 6 : So, it's a dual role that 7 we're oin to -- 8 : Sure. 9 : But I had gotten word, and I 10 don't recall the date, where from my Regional 11 Director which stated he's not to go to general 12 population until further notice. 13 : The Regional Director, 14 where is that in the chain of command for BOP? 15 : We have five regional 16 offices. 17 : Okay. 18 =, Each region has a Regional 19 Director. 20 : Okay. 21 11.1 This is the Northeast 22 Region. 23 : Okay. 24 IN Where we have 21 2S institutions. So, he supervises and is in EFTA00064521 13 14 1 2 3 4 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 charge of the 21 institutions. I: Okay. So, is he -- : (Indiscernible *00:08:37). -- your direct supervisor? : He's my director supervisor. : Oka . 'Who is that? .. phonetic sp.). . . ? Yeah. : And Mr. told you, do you recall if it was verbally or an email? Phone call? : We had talked about it, too, but I would have to check if there was an email to go with it. But we did talk and said, hey, we're going to hold off on putting him out in general o ulation. : Okay. Do you recall when you officially were, you and Mr. , spoke about this? : I don't want to give you the wrong date. But it was within that, you know, maybe a cou le weeks after he arrived. : Okay. So, it was a few weeks after he arrived --1 2 3 4 S 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 aRight. : Okay. After Mr. told you to keep him, or it was agreed upon -- : Um-hum. • -- to keep him in Special Housi Right. : Who did you notify that he was to stay in the Special Housing Unit? How does that communication -- : So, what it does is I get my exec staff together -- : Um-hum. : -- which is my Associate Wardens, the Captain, my exec, and we have our meetings, and I tell them he's not, you know, I lay out the specific instructions. He's not to go out to general population. And -- : Were there, sorry. Co ahead. No. : And that's basically how we start. IlWOkay. Yeah. 15 1 : Were there any other 2 specific directions or instructions given to 3 the staff re arding him? 4 : Well, so at the time of him 5 staying in there, we had to find him initially 6 a roommate. 7 : Okay. 8 IM! So, and it's hard especially 9 in Special Housing Unit when you've got gang 10 members in there that are not appropriate to be 11 housed with. So, we came up with, I came up 12 with , who was in there. White 13 male, probably be able to cope with him. And 14 that's typically how we, you know, that's part 15 of the evaluation process. 16 : Is it standard for inmates 17 in Special Housing Unit to have cellmates? 18 : We typically would like for 19 them to have it. 20 : Sure. 21 W I But certain situations 22 dictate that they can. If an inmate's a total 23 separation from a group, and we get word from 24 US Attorney's office or the arresting agents 25 that, hey, he's to be totally separated, then 16 1 they would be housed by themselves. They could 2 have an incident in the institution, you know, 3 for example our gang members, somebody has an 4 issue, and for example, the Bloods, then we S have to say hey, let's separate him from there. 6 You know? 7 : Was there any directions 8 specifically that Mr. Epstein was to have a 9 cellmate at all times? 10 : From psychology when -- 11 : Okay. 12 : -- said hey, that he's 13 required, he needs to have a cellmate at all 14 times. 15 : Okay. And that occurred 16 later on? When he first arrived, there was no 17 specific directions regarding that; correct? 18 : No, it wasn't. 19 : Okay. 20 : Wait, let me. 21 : Sure. 22 : You mean when he first came 23 in were we talkin about him having a cellmate? 24 : Initially. 25 : I don't recall any talks EFTA00064522 17 18 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about him. MIW Okay. Initially, and trying to : figure out when he first came in, how he was housed. I don't recall how he was housed when he first came in. but -- : Okay. The MCC is no stranger profile -- • Right. • -- inmates. Generally speaking, how do you normally, or generally handle these type of high profile inmates? Any other special considerations or concerns. How does this work? : Again, you come in. We evaluate him to determine, okay, if they can go out to general population or not. We've had, you know, we've had a bunch that come in that were able to go out. We hadIIIIIII(phonetic sp.), you know, the phone that, I don't know if ou recall, Indiscernible *00:12:41). : Okay. • Him. So, when he first came 19 1 just going over some of the overall high- 2 profile inmates and the general -- 3 : Um-hum. 4 : -- evaluation of them. 5 Going back to, you said earlier that a few 6 weeks had occurred. You and the Regional 7 Director discussed keeping Epstein in the 8 Special Housin Unit. 9 : Um-hum. 10 : How often was the Regional 11 Director bein briefed on Epstein? 12 : I guess the situation 13 dictated it. If something happened, then we'd 14 notify him, or he needed some questions for 15 him, he would call me. But I don't want to, I 16 don't recall the specific amount of times. But 17 we were in contact. 18 MS. : Um-hum. 19 Frequent contact. 20 : Okay. How often were you, 21 are you notified differently of high-profile 22 inmates or how often were you being aware or 23 notified of E stein's housing situation? 24 : Well, I mean, he was in the 25 Special Housing Unit. So, I knew where he was. 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in, you know, he was high profile. So, we brought him in to determine -- FEMALE VOICE: Excuse me. : Yeah. FEMALE VOICE: Can you guys step out here for just a moment? at 10:55 a.m. (tape We're resuming We, pausing the interview paused). the interview with Warden Yeah. : (Indiscernible *00:00:14). The time is now 10:56. Joining the interview room is Assisting United States Attiiiiiiirom the Southern District of New York, MS. , I apologize. Can you spell your name for transcription purposes? MS. : Sure. . Thanks. : Thank you. Before we were 20 1 Okay. 2 =I So, it wasn't like I had to : 3 be updated as to where he was. I knew where he 4 was. 6 =IOkay. I mean, I knew that he went : 7 on his attorney visits, spent the whole day 8 there. Would be the first one in, last one 9 out. So, I mean, that's what I knew. And then 10 I kind of (Indiscernible *00:02:06) with the 11 attorneys. I had some outside attorneys 12 complain about, you know, they were taking up 13 the attorney room. So, I knew that was, you 14 know, those issues were coming up with the 15 attorne room. 16 : Okay. Going back to 17 general olicies at the -- 18 • Um-hum. 19 : -- within the BOP, 20 actuall when E stein arrive -- 21 • Um-hum. 22 • -- I think we already 23 covered this, but just to, were any special 24 arran ements or considerations given to him? 25 : As far as -- EFTA00064523 21 1 : Obviously you said earlier 2 he was ut in the SHU on Monday. 3 : Right. 4 : After, was it, at that S point, was there any issues that you're aware 6 of regarding him? Anything that you needed to 7 be aware of other than just who he was? 8 : No. lust who he was and the 9 basic screenin . The intake screening. 10 : Okay. At the time he 11 first arrived, did you have any, was there any 12 notification of any mental health concerns? 13 : No, not that I know of. 14 : Okay. How -- 15 : Are you talking about the 16 weekend he came in, or -- 17 : Yeah. 18 : (Indiscernible *00:03:19). 19 : First arrival. 20 : That weekend, I don't know. 21 But I know afterwards, he was medically 22 assessed and they were, you know, our health 23 service department assessed him and he, I think 24 he might have told him that he had certain 25 medications. 1 2 3 4 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 22 Okay. When -- -- that he was taking. : When inmates come into the MCC, are they all screened for mental health issues or medical issues? : Well, yes. They come in, you're screened for your medical. The unit team screens you and psychology screens you. But -- : What timeframe does that occur? • Typically like with him, he came in on the weekend. So, it depends if there was a psychologist. Maybe the next day someone would go screen him, the on-call psychologist. But, you know, or Monday if someone came in. But typically the on-call psychologist is there through the weekend and will screen them. : Who is notified of the results of those screenings? in of? : Of the medical screen and psychological screenings, who gets notified of that? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 : As far as what? If they find something in there? : Yes. : Like what would be an example? I mean -- : Any medical concerns that people need to be aware of. Any psychological issues. How does that information get disseminated? : Because when we talk about medical issues, some of that falls under privacy issues. : Um-hum. So, you know, it's not going to -- : Okay. -- just like that. : Sure. But as far as psychological, if it was something that psychologists did an interview and said, hey, there's a mental health issue or something, then she would, you know, she would let her Associate Warden know. She would let me know that, hey, there's some issues. 24 1 : Okay. And when he first 2 you made aware of any medical or 3 regarding him? 4 : Mental health, I don't 5 recall any mental health. But I was told that 6 he was on certain medications or whatever. But 7 it was eneral. It wasn't -- 8 : Okay. 9 • -- anything major. 10 : Okay. And just, and 11 that's a general policy for all inmates that 12 arrive? 13 : The screening, yeah. 14 : lust the medical 15 screenin . The all get that? 16 : Right. 17 : Is there any, as a result 18 of those screenings, is there any, does it have 19 any bearing on where they're placed, whether 20 it's special housing or general population? 21 : I mean typically if you do, 22 like I said, if you do an intake screening and 23 the individual comes in and they have no 24 issues, no separation issues, and, you know, 25 then they can populate like anyone else. But arrived, were mental issues EFTA00064524 25 1 if there are issues with them going out in 2 general population; i.e., safety issues, then 3 you would be laced in the Special Housing. 4 : Okay. : Until we could further 6 evaluate if ou could go to general population. 7 : If someone during the 8 mental health screening, the mental health, the 9 psycholo ist deemed them to be suicidal -- 10 : Okay. 11 : -- what are the suicidal 12 watch olicies as it relates to that? 13 : So, if the psychologist was 14 to say, hey, they're suicidal, then they would 15 be placed on suicide watch. 16 Okay. 17 11.1 1 Now if the psychologist is 18 not there and someone exhibits suicidal 19 ideations or statements or thoughts, then 20 they're laced on suicide watch. 21 : Can you explain to me what 22 suicide watch is, where it is in the MCC -- 23 : It's on the second floor of 24 the institution, on the same floor of the 25 hospital. 26 1 Okay. 2 111, And it's a cell, and if you : 3 go on suicide watch, you're placed in a smock. 4 Okay. 5 =I That covers you and then : 6 you're watched for 24 hours. 7 : Now the smock, is that 8 made of a er or -- 9 It's cloth. 10 : Cloth? 11 It's like, you ever see 12 those movies where they have those heavy bomb 13 vests? 14 Uh -- 15 1.1 It's something, I mean, I : 16 don't want to you know, say, but it's something 17 like that. 18 : Okay. 19 : And it just hangs. 20 : Sure. 21 : Hangs on them just like 22 that. So -- 23 : And you said they're 24 monitored for 24 hours. How are they, is it -- 25 There's a companion sitting 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 there. An inmate. 11 In the cell? : No. Outside the cell. : Okay. : It's a cell where you sit and observe. : Okay. Is the companion another inmate or a staff? : No, it's a trained inmate companion. Now, we have four cells. If those cells get full, then we have to move them up to the Special Housing Unit and then put a staff watch on them. : Okay. What policies are in place for suicide watch as it relates to staff response, notification, how people get notified, if they're moving from suicide watch to off suicide watch. How does that work? : That works through psycholo : Okay. : Psychology evaluates and they'll say, okay, we've evaluated him and, you know, wherever we're going, typically you always usually go from the Special Housing Unit 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 28 to suicide. So, they'd say, okay you know what, the 're ready to go back up. : Okay. What role, how does the program, is the psychologist the program coordinator? the department. : The chief psychologist runs : Okay. And then she has various psychologists that work under her. : Okay. And then evaluate because we have a different mission as far as we have a forensic mission. So, we get a lot of forensic studies in the institution. 11.1 Okay. And then we have a regular psychologist also that handles the inmate population but they work together and they handle ever thin . : Okay. Who's ultimately responsible for placing somebody on suicide watch or off suicide watch? : Well placing it, a staff member comes and says hey, this guy is EFTA00064525 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 suicidal. You can place him on suicide watch. : Okay. Anybody in the institution can do that? : Yeah. If I come upon an inmate that's saying, "Hey, I'm going to kill myself." Okay, we get him on suicide watch. Psychology comes and, you know, evaluates them and then comes u with a plan. : Within the psychology department -- Um-hum. -- or the medical department there in mental health, who there ultimatel makes that decision? : I believe, and don't quote me on this. I believe the psychologists. Okay. You know, they're trained professionals. So, they can make a decision and they consult with the Chief in, you know, determining okay what's the plan of action to move forward. : And are you, when someone's placed in suicide watch, are you notified of that? 30 1 : Yeah. They send out a form 2 every day stating like who's on suicide watch, 3 who's onpsyche observation. So -- 4 : Okay. S : -- we're aware of who it is 6 and then they'll send out a form if there's no 7 one on there. 8 : You said earlier that 9 while on suicide watch, there was an observer. 10 Right. 11 : How does an inmate become 12 an observer? 13 : It's an inmate companion. 14 : A companion, I'm sorry. 15 : So, it's a trained program. 16 So, they have to go through training. They 17 have to take courses, and then they become 18 eligible to become a companion. 19 : Who authorizes the use of 20 an inmate com anion? 21 : The psychology department 22 runs that. So -- 23 : Do you have any input as 24 the Warden in selecting or training or 25 implementing the inmate companion program? 1 2 3 4 7 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 In No. : Does every institution have an inmate companion program? Yes. VS. : Who's the Chief Psychiiiiiiiiiill: sp.). : And Ms. is the one who is ultimately responsible for determining if someone is on suicide watch and removing them; correct? (phonetic 31 : Well in conjunction with our staff. 1.1 Okay. Because you could be, a psychologist is assigned to the individual when they're working a plan with them. And if they come to the determination that hey, you know what, they no longer need to be on suicide watch. : Okay. But as the clinical director she's ultimately responsible. : She's not the clinical. She's the Chief Psychologist. 1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 1.1 : Okay. Clinical Director is a separate sition. : Okay. I apologize for that. a : That's fine. : Thank you for clarifying. : Okay. : Who in the medical staff, just for my clarification, who in the medical staff is ultimately responsible for removing somebod from suicide watch? : The psychology department determines to remove somebody from -- : So, who in the psychology department? : Again, it depends on who's evaluating the inmate. : Okay. So -- : And so we have one, two, three, really_we have, (Indiscernible *00:12:26) IIIII, uh, four. We have four psycholo ists on staff. : You have four psychologists on staff. And any one of those EFTA00064526 33 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 four can remove somebody? : Can remove somebody. : Do those four have, who's those four supervisors? Dr. IIIIIIii : Dr. Yeah. : What authority does she have to overrule them? : And I'm not a psychologist - WI-- to know what procedures : Sure. they use Mr -- Um-hum. -- or what conversation they have to determine if she's going to overrule them. I mean, she's the supervisor, and it's just like with any, you know, profession you have. Mr Right. If I come up with some reasonin -- IUm-hum. S In saying hey, I don't agree 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with your decision, then we debate it and then we ultimately come to a decision. : Okay. As to yay or nay. : Okay. : So, it's kind of the same thing. : While on suicide watch, you said there's a 24-hour companion. What does staff do for the inmates while they're on suicide watch? : Well we have a camera, well they're trained to, there's a phone there. So, let's say something happened where an inmate's trying to do harm to himself. They pick up the phone and they call for assistance, because it goes directly to control center, and we respond accordingly to it. But we also in our control center, while the individual is on suicide watch, there's a camera there. . Okay. To view -- : What specific training does staff get as it relates to the suicide 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 watch? : Once a year during our annual training, we have suicide prevention trainin . : Okay. During our annual training. : And that's required for all -- aAll employees. : What does that training cover? : Suicide signs, prevention, coping, just anything pertaining to suicide, sir. Signs to look for. : Um-hum. Um -- : Is there any specific staff that are more trained, or specifically trained for this area of the prison? : Our Special Housing Unit staff get quarterly suicide prevention trainin . : Okay. Is that part of something the MCC does independent, or is that policy dictated? How does that --1 2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 : That's our policy dictates that the et training. : Okay. That's BOP policy; correct? IM Yes. : Okay. When someone, you said that any staff member at the BOP can place somebody on suicide watch? : Yes. : Is there any paperwork or documentation for that that they have to fill out? : No. Basically they'll tell that, you know, that hey we need to place him on watch, and we'll place him on watch, and then we'll contact psychology. . Okay. To come in and talk to them. : Okay. There's no referral that sa s "I laced inmate" -- : No. Psychology will handle it -- INOkay. -- here and there, in their notes and their documentation that they were EFTA00064527 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 placed on it when they were placed on it. So, the psychology department is responsible for documenting when people come in in treatment. : We, you know, we have what we call a daily log in the -- : Um-hum. : -- institution. So, the log would annotate somebody was placed on suicide watch also. : Okay. Is there any specific forms or reports that get filled out when somebod is removed from suicide watch? : I believe psychology would do those forms and saying in their reports why they were removed and if they're ready to be released. =I Do you get those forms? I don't get the special medical ones. I just, with the notification that, you know, with the one that email that goes out -- Um-hum. -- that the individual was released from suicide watch. 1 2 3 4 7 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 : Do you get notified, you just said you get notified in the email that somebod 's removed or -- : It's an email that the psychology department puts out stating who's on suicii2I22 11tls been removed. M : Is that a daily list? Like they send it once a day, or when someone new comes on and off? How does that -- .It's a daily one. And -- : Okay. And it states who's on watch, who's, you know, who's got released, and : Who does that get disseminated to? It's a group. It's a group email that gets sent to all department heads, Captain, Lieutenants, everybody in the need to know. : This is the supervisors within the institution? The Lieutenants, the Captain. (Indiscernible *00:17:07). : Okay. 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 39 : And, don't quote me on that, but I need to look at the chain -- Okay. -- to see who's actually on it. But -- : But it's not an institution -wide email? : It is kind of sent out institution wide because you have the different departments on it. So, you can say it's institution wide. : Not every person in the institution ets that email, though? No. I don't -- : Okay. Just not an MCC all type of -- a: : No, it's not an all staff. : Okay. Yeah. : What is the expectation of the department heads and the supervisors and the Lieutenants and Captains once they get this email? What are they supposed to do with that? : I mean, it's just a notification that the individual's being 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 40 removed from suicide watch. So, it depends on where they're going. So, if they're going back to Special Housing Unit, so it's notification that hey, this person's been taken off. We have nobod on watch right now. : Okay. Are they supposed to disseminate that? What are they supposed to do with that information? Are they supposed to tell an bod where they -- : Well, I mean when that individual is released -- =I Um-hum. Wherever they're going for, they're going to be notified by psychology that they're coming directly -- : Okay. -- to you. : Okay. So, it was just an accountabilit : Okay. -- thing just to know that hey, this erson is getting off of watch. : So, psychology will notify whatever unit they're going back to? EFTA00064528 41 1 : Well, it depends where 2 you're going back to. Typically I always go to 3 Special Housin Unit down. 4 : Okay. : And typically when you do, 6 let's say an individual has tried to commit 7 suicide. It's an infraction. So, they usually 8 have an incident report that goes beyond that. 9 So, you have to come up to the Special Housing 10 Unit anyway before so that that infraction can 11 be resolved. 12 : Okay. 13 =I So, there are a number of 14 aspects of, you know, how. Did you go straight 15 back or if you don't go back there. 16 : And this email that 17 psychology sends out with the list of who's in 18 and who's out of suicide watch -- 19 : Who's on watch, yeah? 20 : -- is that once a day or 21 twice a day? Is that morning and evening 22 thing? 23 : It depends. 24 : Okay. 25 : When you come in in the 42 1 morning, they could say, you know, this is 2 who's on watch, and then you get another one 3 statin who's been released off of watch. 4 : Okay. Is there any policy 5 or standard operation procedure on how 6 (Indiscernible *00:19:21) that email gets sent 7 out? 8 : How what? 9 : How frequent that email -- 10 : No. 11 : Okay. But it should be at 12 least once a da ? 13 : That's when they send it 14 out. I don't -- 15 : Okay. When somebody is 16 removed from S ecial Housing -- 17 Um-hum. 18 : -- and placed in suicide 19 watch on the second floor -- 20 : Um-hum. 21 : -- is anything done to 22 their cell in Special Housing? Is there any 23 precautions or anything that go into that? 24 : So, typically let's say you 25 do leave, and it depends on how much space we 43 1 have. We reall don't have that much space. 2 Okay. 3 : So, usually that cell, 4 depending on if when they were removed from the 5 cell, if they had a cellmate. So, what happens 6 is that individual's property is removed, and 7 we could possibly put somebody else in that 8 cell. 9 Okay. 10 . Um -- 11 : And again, the suicide : 12 watch versus psychological, the psyche eval 13 that, you said that happened right away when 14 someone first comes in the prison; correct? 15 17 . Well I 16 : A psyche eval? I didn't say what you 18 said before that. You said -- 19 A psychological eval. 20 Okay. 21 : I want to clarify, earlier : 22 you said that people, inmates get that when 23 they first come into the prison; correct? 24 : Yeah. Psychologically when 25 they initially have to come and actually 1 2 3 4 S 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 44 perform -- Okay. -- an initial intake screenin . : Is there a level below suicide watch? Well we also have what we call a osvche observation. : Okay. And I think the best way to describe that would be it's a step-down from suicide watch. For example, we might have a mental health inmate that is just mentally, you know, out there. So, we'll put them on psyche observation. They haven't said they're going to hurt themselves, but they have the potential to do it. Somebody might be on narcotics and acting erratic and you don't know what they're on. So, they might end up doing it. But it's a different type of observation because it's not as strip ent as suicide watch. Okay. MS. : Can you explain what that means? What are the requirements when an EFTA00064529 45 46 1 inmate is on psyche eval, or psyche 2 observation? 3 : If they're on psyche 4 observation, we are not necessarily putting S them in a smock. You know? You can still have 6 your regular clothing. We're just observing 7 your behavior and that. So, that's the 8 difference. 9 MS. : And does the psychologist 10 stop b ever day? 11 : They're treated the same way 12 as somebody that's on suicide watch. They're 13 evaluated, come up with a plan. They're ready 14 to be released. Keep them on, more along those 15 lines. 16 MS. : Well is someone on psyche 17 evaluation, do they have an inmate companion 18 watchin them? 19 : Psyche obs also has an 20 inmate companion. So, anybody in that area has 21 an inmate watchin them. 22 : As the Warden, do you have 23 any input on the determinate if someone's in 24 psychological observation, in suicide watch or 25 observation status? Do you have any input on 1 that? 2 : I don't overrule medical 3 decisions. I'm not a doctor. 4 Um-hum. S1.1 1 If they come to me and say : 6 this is warranted whether it's medical care or 7 not, I don't -- 8 : Okay. 9 MS. : But you're briefed on it? 10 I'm briefed on it. Yes. 11 MS. : Is that orally? 12 : Orally they'll come and say, 13 well we'll discuss an inmate saying, hey, he 14 has mental issues. I feel that they need to be 15 placed here or there. And I'm going with your 16 evaluation. I'm not going to, and I have good 17 psychologists. So, I trust their judgment. 18 MS. : Can an inmate be taken off 19 of suicide watch by Dr. or her staff 20 without consulting you? 21 : They can. The doctor 22 decides who's coming off of watch. So, they 23 can make the determination and, you know, they 24 send up to the Associate Warden, the Captain, 25 and it will come to release and if they're 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 47 going off it. So, it doesn't -- MS. But do they -- -- have to necessarily, it's not my ap,iir MS. : Do they typically consult you when that happens? : Depending on, you know, if it's the case, you know? Who it is, you might be, like I said, a high profile individual they would say, "Hey, we're taking him off of watch. We're doing this." So, we'll be following the plan S.-- : When it comes to Epstein, leffre steinE -- SII Um-hum. -- he was in the mental health program. Can you just tell us your understanding of his involvement with the psychologist at MCC? : Um, let me back-track. : Sure. : It's not a mental health program. Okay. Um --1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111! Being, I guess, reviewed by Sorry. psycholo : Sure. -- they're following him. He was on their case. 1111:1 Okay. And you want to know what I knew about it? Ml! Yes. Again, he was under their care. They were evaluating him, and, you know, going through their protocol to determine why he was on watch. If he was on suicide watch, can he come off of suicide watch? Was he suicidal? Thins like that. : At any time, were you aware or notified of him being suicidal or havin an suicidal ideations or attempts? : Well we had an incident where he was in the cell with Okay. -- that it might've been a suicide attempt and it might not have been a suicide attempt. So, we followed the protocols 48 EFTA00064530 1 2 3 4 S 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 49 and put him on watch. There was also an internal investigation where he was interviewed and his cellmate was interviewed, and he basically denied Indiscernible *00:25:35). : When you say "he denied", : He said -- -- or Epstein? : No, Epstein stated that, "He I didn't try to kill myself." And then said that he was sitting in the cell. He thought he was having a heart attack. So, I forget the words psychology used to determine what their conclusion was as far as the actual act. •MOkay. : Did you review the incident re ort for the suicide attempt? : I reviewed the investigative report that the Lieutenant interviewed both of them, took their statements, and all that because the review process goes from, the Lieutenant initiates it. It goes to the Captain, Associate Warden, and myself. And then I, uh, sign off on it. 50 1 MS. : Did you speak with Dr. 2 after she had consulted with Mr. Epstein 3 when he was laced on suicide watch? 4 : Um, yes. We have SHU 5 meetings, and we have it once a week, and 6 Epstein was brought up, and she talked about 7 Mr. Epstein. 8 MS. ' After the suicide attempt? 9 Yes. 10 MS. : What day of the week is 11 the SHU thin t pically? 12 : It's Thursdays. 13 NS. : All right and -- 14 Right. 15 MS. -- what happens at the SHU 16 meetin s? 17 : It's a list where we go 18 around and we talk about every inmate. We have 19 inmates that are in there for infractions, 20 criminal issues, from your office, a high- 21 profile guy might come in. So, we just talk 22 about, okay, what's the status. If we call in 23 a disciplinary citation, that means they've 24 been sanctioned and they're doing time, and 25 then we look at the release date. We have some 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 51 in there pending investigations. Cellphone introduction. Drug introduction. So, that goes through the investigative process, and then we have, you know, we also have our SAMs (phonetic sp.) inmates that are housed in there. So, we basically discuss and talk about every inmate. MS. : And who attends these meetin s? : Myself, all the Associate Wardens, the Unit Managers, psychology, the Captain, the SHU Lieutenant, the Investigative Lieutenant. So, we just have everyone there that's involved in the -- MS. : And what's your understanding of whether the SHU Lieutenant or the Captain brief out the duty Officers in the SHU about the outcome of that SHU meeting every week. : I don't understand what you mean. MS. : So, do you have an understanding of whether, because the duty Officers are not present in the SHU meeting; 52 1 correct? 2 No. 3 MS. : Do you have an 4 understanding of how, for instance, if you tell 5 the Lieutenant, I want this done in the SHU, 6 will the Lieutenant then tell his duty Officers 7 after the meeting? 8 : Well, the duty officer is 9 supposed to make rounds throughout the 10 institution when they're on duty to observe and 11 report if anything is not right. And then if 12 we have incidents, they make notifications, you 13 know, to the re ion. 14 MS. : To the region? 15 : To, like let's say we have a 16 fight. 17 MS. : Um-hum. 18 : Or maybe like you said, a 19 suicide attempt. So, they have to contact the 20 Regional Duty Officer. That's their 21 notification. They make the Regional Duty 22 Officer, and then it moves up the chain that 23 way, and then I have to make my notifications, 24 which I make my notifications to the Regional 2S Director. EFTA00064531 53 1 MS. : Okay. And my question is, 2 does any information, do you have an 3 understanding of whether any information that's 4 conveyed in these SHU meetings gets briefed S down to the line Officers who are responsible 6 for patrollin the SHU? 7 : Right. 8 VS. : It does? 9 : Yeah. The SHU Lieutenant is 10 there, and he's in the meeting, he or she is in 11 the meeting, and they're talking to their staff 12 on what needs to be done or the status, you 13 know. We're going in and we determine if 14 somebody can be released, then that will be 15 conveyed back that hey, an individual can be 16 released. 17 MS. : So, you were saying that 18 after the July 23rd suicide attempt, there was a 19 Thursda SHU meeting? 20 : Right. 21 MS. : In which Dr. 22 discussed at least her initial observations of 23 Mr. E stein? 24 : Well, she would initially 25 discuss it there, but she would also initially, 55 1 Monday. I have to check, did I take a extra 2 day or not? I'm not sure, but the 29th, I 3 should've. I would've been back. 4 MS. : So, that Thursday meeting 5 which looks like would've been August 1st, you 6 were resent at? 7 : Yes. 8 MS. : And what was discussed 9 durin the SHU meeting? 10 : The SHU meeting, we'll 11 discuss every inmate. Every inmate on the 12 list, what's their status? Updates and all 13 that stuff. 14 MS. : Okay. And specifically 15 with res ect to Epstein, what was discussed? 16 : I don't recall specifically. 17 I know we would've talked about him. We 18 would've probably talked about, you know, his 19 psychological status and I got to remember on 20 the first, he was probably back in the Special 21 Housing Unit. So, we were probably, you know, 22 talking about his housing conditions, what's he 23 doing, and usually the conversation was during 24 the day he was down at the attorney visits, you 25 know? 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 54 whoever, you know, if the Warden is there, initiate it to the AW. So, that would be something immediate that she would say, hey, he's on watch and this happened. MS. : And what happened at that first SHU meeting after the suicide attempt? : The week of July 22nd to the 26th, I was on leave. MS. Okay.: So, I was, you know, I was getting called. So, I don't know the specifics, but I was aware of, you know, I got called that hey, there was an attempt and the protocols were followed. MS. : Okay. : Notifications were made. MS. : Okay. So, the following week which I think is the week of the 29th. The 29th or the 30th, yeah. : You were back in the MS. office? : That Monday. So, if you have a calendar I can look at it. MS. _: I think it's the 29th -- : So, yeah. So, the 29th is a 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 And then there were certain exams that we had to do that we wanted to get done on him. And then we discussed that. MS. : Uh, what kind of exams? : Physicals and then, you know, and I don't know if that was before or after his sleep apnea machine that he was, you know, re uestin MS. : Um-hum. Because typically, you know, you have to go through the fitting and the process, but, you know, we allowed that one to come in. We checked it, security wise, and said it was fine to come in, and we got it. So, I think we might have been discussing that, more along those lines. But we discuss every inmate in there. I don't specifically remember it. I know we would've talked about what the issues were pertainin to him. MS. : Um, let's go back to -- : Um-hum. -- the suicide attempt. Okay. : You said that you were on EFTA00064532 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 leave that week, but you were notified by your Associate Warden? Associate Warden, yes. MS. : Okay. Were you receiving daily u dates? : Not, I mean, they called me during the day the first time that it happened. Hey, this is what happened. He's on watch. And then the next day, you know, he was still on watch. So, there was really no, I didn't need that much updates because we knew he was on watch. MS. : Okay. Um -- MS. : And you notified your Regional Director? : I notified my Regional Director. And then while I was on leave, my Regional Director was also in contact with my acting AW. MS. MS. : Did the -- Acting Warden, I'm sorry. : Did the Regional Director convey any directions to your AW during that time? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 : I believe just the basics, you know. Keep him updated what's going on because at the time he was under psychology's care. MS. . Um-hum. : So, once they're in that, there's really not that much input to go on because they're on watch. MS. : And then Epstein was downgraded from suicide watch to psyche observation. MS. second floor? MS. change? : Psyche observation. : While he was still on the Yes. : Were you notified of that : Yes, that he was on psyche obs. MS. : Okay. And did you discuss that with Dr. at all? : Yeah. We talked about it. Again, it was, you know, him going back up to the Special Housing Unit. Although he wasn't suicidal, it was just a matter of, okay, who 59 1 are we goin to house him with? 2 MS. Um-hum. 3 : You know, coming to that 4 decision and then that would give her more time 5 to work with him if she needed. 6 MS. : 212L Did you have a 7 discussion with Dr. 'I'll' about whether she 8 felt he was still suicidal? 9 : Again, if the psychologist 10 tells me that he's ready and he goes, I don't 11 question medical judgment. I trust her 12 judgement. If she says he's not suicidal and 13 he's ready to go back, then we trust her 14 judgment. 15 YS. : And she did -- 16 : Because she -- 17 MS. -- tell you that? 18 : She said he was ready to go 19 back. He wasn't suicidal and that he was ready 20 to go back. 21 MS. : Did you review any of her 22 reports or the sychologist's reports -- 23 I don't -- 24 VS. -- during the time he was 25 on the second floor? 1 2 3 4 S 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 60 : No. I don't review any medical files. MS. : And he came back to the SHU on the 30th, is that right? Uh, yes. : Okay. Um-hum. MS. : And what discussions did you have, let's start with Dr. , about the conditions of his confinement in the SHU? : She just said to get him in, you know, we're going to put him, get him a cellmate because typically every inmate that, you know, is on suicide or whatever, we say, okay, we're going to give him a cellmate. So, that was when we went through the process of figuring out, okay, who could we possibly put him in with? Um, the pickin s were slim. wait, no. So, I came u with , and no there ori ecause of , he had been ut down VS. _: Um-hum. : So, what happened was, we had to come up with some more inmates. So, I came up with three. It was, I believe, EFTA00064533 61 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and who was the other one? We had another sex offender in there that we were going to put him in there, and he said, "If he comes in here, it's going to be a problem." So, we didn't put him in there. So, we ended up putting in there. MS. : Um-hum. , an older gentleman. He couldn't be in the institution because it was cooperating, so we figured that was a good fit, and then I sent an email of the three to the Director's Chief of Staff I sent an email to. MS. And what is his name? (phonetic sp.). MS. : Okay. And so you emailed him, here are the three -- : Here are the three -- -- possible -- -- possible ones. : Okay. Right. Did ou tell 1 2 3 4 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. : Did you tell Mr. that he needed to have a cellmate? : Yes. That's what the discussion was, for a cellmate. So, I sent that up, spoke with my Regional D