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OU.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #63
3/6/93
12:15 A.M. 1:02 A.M.
Q-: 4
02
Tape 63!
JOHN: But if, if somebody wanted to use a
stretcher, use something to, to
» STEVE: Right.
JOHN: - bring he body out --
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: we would accept the body as long as
someone would accompany the body. In other words,
someone would come out. Now, I don't think it would be
very appropriate to have a child accompany a body and
come out, you know. I'm not being morbid about it.
STEVE: No, I understand.
JOHN: I think an adult should come out.
STEVE: I understand --
JOHN: And David said flat no.
STEVE: _Right. I understand even the
psychology involved myself. If I were on your side in
your shoes, I'd at least do the same thing.
JOHN: Well, it's the right thing. But I
just wouldn't want to throw a body out and say hey, we
don't care, whatever.
STEVE: You know, but he gives the option to
these people still, do you want to go out or whatever.
See, I guess --
JOHN: Well, I think he's got to be a little
more authoritative.
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STEVE: Well, at the time --
JOHN: And, and it's a serious thing and, and
it's a religious thing, also. '
~ STEVE: Well, it is. See, that's the point.
JOHN: When you're talking about the
deceased.
STEVE: These people are starting to, you
know, these people are also waiting because his God
said wait and that's the same God that is showing him
information.
JOHN: Well, if you would encourage him that,
that his God, you know, is certainly not going to look
negative upon them for accompanying a body out there,
not only to the coroner but -- -
STEVE: Are you telling me these persons
could accompany the body to the coroner and then
return? »
JOHN: I'm not telling you that.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And, and I'm not lying to you. I
don't want you --
STEVE: Oh, I know.
JOHN: -- to get the wrong impression.
STEVE: Of course not. And I, I would hope
that you would --
JOHN: I, I would expect someone to come out
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because I expect that person to come out, spend time
with the coroner and to be familiar with the. .
individual. And then to assist in contacting next of
kin, all of these type of things, you know.
STEVE: All right. Well, he --
JOHN: And, and I think that's the, the
proper thing to be done.
STEVE: The option will always be given to
any and all of these people, you know, and --
JOHN: But sometimes you've got to give them
a little nudge, huh?
STEVE: Well, this is true, and there's been
a lot of times -- In fact,_frequently we will do that.
The first day this even happened, afterwards, he asked
me to -- and I told -- Jim knew that. Twice I went
around to everybody in the entire building --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: saying do you want to leave?
They'll give you safe protection, you'll be -- and
apparently it must have been a little too early or
soon, I guess. Everybody was just too --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: The fear, the apprehension, what all
took place, it was -- I'll tell you the truth, anything
that ever happened to me in my life, this was so beyond
the shock -- I was down just reading a book, talking
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iswith someone when that happened. It happened so
quickly. I mean, it, it -- I couldn't hardly figure
out what was going on.
' JOHN: Yeah.
I didn't know who it was or -- STEVE:
JOHN: Another thing, another thing. You
might have Kathy when you and David talk to her in
the morning --
STEVE: Okay.
-- she might have some ideas of some JOHN:
service or something that she would, would like for,
for Michael.
STEVE: All right, I'll, I'll ask about that
JOHN: You know, because you say his, his
parents are, are from Florida you think.
STEVE: .I think they're divorced, that the
father --
JOHN: I mean, she's his wife, huh?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: She should have a little, a little
input there.
STEVE: Right. I believe that the father's
out of Chicago and the mother's somewhere in, it's
possible, Orlando or somewhere like that, or on the
St. Petersburg -- over on the --
JOHN: Maybe, maybe get those answers in the
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0morning, h
make those
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them to kn
and --
you know,
hurt. You
Sunday and
say?6
uh?
STEVE: I'll, I'll try to do that. y _
JOHN: And, hey, if she wants to come out and
arrangements --
STEVE: Well, if you would, leave Pete T
s parents I think are Bruce and Lisa allow
ow, if you would, that --
JOHN: Does he have anybody inside?
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: Does Pete have any relatives inside?
STEVE: Yes, he does.
JOHN: Children?
STEVE: Yeah, there's a -- there's children
JOHN: Do they know?
STEVE: a sister. Yeah, they found out,
and of course, you know, there was a great
know how that is.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So, I mean, because --
JOHN: It's a delicate situation.
STEVE: Oh, yeah. He had been missing since
we didn't know what had happened to him.
JOHN: And he's got a sister in there, you
STEVE: Oh, yeah.
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JOHN: A wife or anything?
STEVE: He's not married.
JOHN: Oh, okay. '
I STEVE: Yeah. But he had been missing. And
there's a few there's other - definitely, there's
some casualties that have to be checked out still. And
like you found the one out there, but he hadn't been,
as you all already know, he hadn't been already part of
this. He hadn't been here that day.
JOHN: Really?
STEVE: No, uh-uh. So when the press was
saying that there was a gun burst about six o'clock
Sunday where three individuals involved, at first I
couldn't figure out what on earth it could be about.
The more I thought about it, I did remember that there
were some guys that were away and apparently they had
heard or been listening on the news, I don't know. So
that's why I was -- for all this time one has been
curious to know who or what or so that's when Jim
told me right away about this Delray. I didn't know
who he was talking about. I hadn't heard the man's
name or that he was called by that name.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Apparently, it's his first name, a
name he didn't like which he never used. He went by a
different name totally. But --
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JOHN: Well, that was involving the three
individuals. And, and, like I said, you had-two-groups
involved -- excuse me -- in the altercation there, and
I guess when things got hot and heavy, they both went
STEVE: So you think it was earlier Sunday
then, huh? Must have been.
JOHN: Well, I think it was - the one
involving Michael was the same time that everything was
going on.
STEVE: Yeah, I wondered about that. I
wondered about that.
JOHN: But it was away. I mean, I can't say
out in the woods or something, but it was like 100, 200
yards away from the buildings there itself.
STEVE: -I see.
JOHN: Wherever it happened. And then they
had their, their incident and then they, they kind of
went in two different directions, you know.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And there was a third person. One
fellow was taken into custody. Obviously, Mike was
found deceased.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And, and the impression I have is that
the third party was injured and went back inside the
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compound or went in that direction, because the other
-- the, the government representatives that were there,
the ATF guys, of course they were going in the opposite
direction. So it was pure speculation and conjecture
on their part.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: But I wish you'd, you know, you and
David be kind of strong with Kathy in the morning. And
if she wants to -- I'd certainly encourage her to
participate in whatever she --
STEVE: Well, I believe Dick spoke with hertoday W i" *H
JOHN: Did he? V
STEVE: -- just before that news conference
that was given in the afternoon --
JOHN:i Did he?
STEVE: -- for about 10 minutes maybe. And,
of course, at that time she was not aware that's who it
was. I suspected and tried to drop a hint here or
there at the time.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: But I thought that it was a good
possibility.
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: And she didn't seem to accept that,
though. So I don't know. Yeah, I'll definitely in the
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morning talk to her, somewhere around eight or nine
o'clock.
JOHN: And if, if she wanted to -- she
doesn't have any more children in there, huh?
STEVE: No, she doesn't.
JOHN: If she wanted to accompany Peter out
in the morning, she could probably --
STEVE: Well, I'll give her --
JOHN: -- accomplish two tasks, couldn't she?
STEVE: It's possible.
JOHN: She could take care of, you know, take
care of Michael and be with her children and take care
of Michael and make some arrangements.
STEVE: I'm speaking about the -- Talking to
someone else.!
JOHN: I'm sorry, what?
STEVE: Oh, just a moment, John.
Pause!
JOHN: Don't tell me you woke him up.
Pause!
STEVE: I was just listening to a couple
people over here that, that apparent --
JOHN: Hello? Yeah, go right ahead.
STEVE: Yeah, that apparently were just
talking about some information here, and I wanted to
pick up on what was going on. Yeah, so in the morning
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what I'll do is --
JOHN: David, David's still sleeping, huh?
STEVE: I think he -- he just moved a little
bit.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: That's why I wanted to see just if he
was awake or what he was doing, if he was just moving
around a little bit or what --
JOHN: You know, it's a possibility -- of
course, you two are going to have to be pretty strong
with Kathy. Yet, she could come out and be very, very
__ ~_»
productive, instrumental thing -- see that things are
handled properly for two people, for not only Peter but
for her own husband, and, and then be with her
children. ~
STEVE: _Right.
JOHN: And handle a real nice Christian
burial there, wherever and whenever she would like to
do that. And I'm sure she could, she could be of great
assistance to Peter's folks if they've come up here
from, from some distance.
STEVE: Well, we'll --
JOHN: Be a little more, you know, reassuring
to them since she, she's -- she knows - she's known
Peter, she's can talk with them.
STEVE: Yeah, definitely in the morning then
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I'll - we'll give her that opportunity and option,
tell her what's happened and what she could do about
the other.
JOHN:
STEVE:I'm sorry?
Yeah, it's
JOHN: Well, I, I think we could accomplish
two tasks at the same time.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And --
STEVE: I'll talk to her somewhere around
probably eight or nine. She asked to be woke up about
there, anyway. '
JOHN: Eight or nine?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: That's a lot of sleep.
STEVE: Well, I don't know. Apparently, they
just - someone told me they just turned in.
JOHN: Really?
STEVE: You know, there's some will sleep,
some stay awake and - so I never know who's doing
what.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: But, apparently, she's been up quite
late. In fact, still might be. I don't know.
Somebody thought she might have just turned in.
JOHN: Yeah.
~
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STEVE: But I wouldn't want to -- at this
time of night she wouldn't probably sleep through the
night, so - -
, JOHN: When, when I mentioned to you earlier
about David really not sounding as good tonight as far
as, you know, the pain and everything --
srsvn: Right.
JOHN: -- you don't think his wounds are
festering or anything like that, it's just --
STEVE: I, I don't know.
JOHN: -- he might be going through a phase?
STEVE: I wondered that myself. I'm not
sure, but it wouldn't seem like it because --
JOHN: But he hasn't been indicating to you
that something's getting infected or something like
that, it's just --
STEVE: No. So far, no.
JOHN: He's just going through a little more
anguish?
STEVE: I, I think that's what it could be.
Bwmean, definitely there's some strong pain there. But
I, I thought for sure, just like Jim and the others
suspected that, you know,_that the -- a great
infection. I expected a lot of that, especially from
the first night. He himself did.
JOHN: Yeah.
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STEVE: It, it is a bad wound. There's no
question, I mean. You know, going right through just
about - .
V JOHN: Well, I'll tell you, I don't
understand how in the world he, he's been able to talk
like he's been able to talk.
STEVE: I don't either. He's taken no --
JOHN: He was on a roll last night. I don't
mean tonight, I mean last night, talking to, to Henry.
STEVE: I'm sure.
JOHN: He was, he was just as verbose as you
could be and, and talking about a lot of personal
things, you know. _
STEVE: Right. To tell you the truth, I
overheard some of it and I was quite surprised.
JOHN: It wasn't just, you know, I'm going to
read the scripture, this was just right off the cuff,
having quite a dialogue. I, I think they had a very
good dialogue together. '
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: You know, and I, and I hope the time
that I spent with David this evening was good. I mean,
I thought it was and I, and I hope he shared the same
feelings.
STEVE: I hope so.
JOHN: You know, because this is new for me,
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25real fast, do you?
STEVE: No. In
pig ficker, you know, get
quite humorous. I had to
in a lecture.
JOHN: You, you
David --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN:
huh?
STEVE: This is16
fact, I have heard people say
it turned around there. It's
laugh, too. I did this week
mentioned when you first met
- it was out in California, though,
correct. It was actually
in - I was picked up by one of the people out there in
Los Angeles, at the airport, taken to one of their
homes. And extremely apprehensive, of course, looking
around, not knowing what this was all about. And I met
him in a home and, I mean, I was shocked. He came over
by me. I sat in a chair and he sat down on the floor,
looking at me, and he started talking to me about the
scripture. And, well, I was half listening because,
you know, the first time you meet someone you're
usually looking them over and observing and --
JOHN: Well, you said you thought he was a
little strange, huh?
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: The first time you met him.
STEVE: Well, not really strange.
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JOHN: Well, the beliefs, the theory, the
principles.
STEVE: Well, no, it was actually the, the
information was extremely logical. And what was more
astounding was how clear it was coming directly from
the book that I had read so many times and never
understood, other than, you know, once in a while you
might come up with a theory or, speculatively speaking,
it could be this, maybe that.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: But he was talking with such
authority because he was bringing in so many chapters
in context without interpretation, just reading them
but showing how they connect. Well, definitely, a very
clear picture was developing between all the prophets
and what they saw. So, see, that's what really caught
my attention, even though he was dressed not anything
like a, a minister or in a three-piece suit or anything
else. In fact, on the contrary, the way he was
dressing in those days was always a stumbling block.
You wondered well, this guy doesn't seem to be a
professional by looks. I mean, you would not expect
him to be really anything by the way he was dressing,
but it was when he opened his mouth. Where on earth
someone as young as himself, where did he get the
information? I mean, he did not have enough time in
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life at that time to develop and to gain or give that
kind of information. There was just no way, especially
when once I saw him get on a pulpit and give.a group of
190 people a lecture on the Bible.
His hands were greasy from working on a car.
He went for five hours, quoting chapter after chapter
after chapter, not missing a word. And the astounding
thing was not that a person could ever memorize all
that, the astounding thing was the clarity and the
picture that was drawn rrom it, the logical
progression.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: And this is what, you know, caught a
lot of people's attention. So they started § he's
always said ask questions, any questions, any
questions. So people asked the questions. The answer
is given by having them turn to the pages of their own
book. Then they're told to go wrestle with the issues.
Like if somebody comes to us, like, for instance, of
course, Robert had been coming here, we've had other
guests through the years that come here, we'll give
them some pretty strong studies and then send them out,
tell them to take some time away from us.
Go to the scholars, go to the ministers, go
to the lay people, ask them these questions, let them
raise questions with yourself. Honestly, this is what
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we've done over and over again.
JOHN: Do you encourage them to talk to
basically nondenominational scholars I _
STEVE: Oh, yes, either or.
JOHN: - or any particular ones?
STEVE: Anybody. You know, go, go to
atheistic scholars that - maybe someone that's into
anthropology of religion or someone that's really
studied and looked at it from many different angles.
Go to the rabbis, go to the ministers of different
denominations.
JOHN: "You weren't just, just talking about
any selected verses with selected analyses, though, you
were going over an entire -- _
STEVE: Yeah. We well, he opens up for
instance, you know, you have a prophet like Joel who
wrote three chapters in the Old Testament.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Doesn't take long to get through,
it's just that the question that puzzles any scholar,
any layperson is how does it connect to the other
writers of that book, which Christians always tell you
that that book is a very consistent book, even though
in reality one can show many contradictions. You know,
all scholars of higher criticism can do that. So a lot
of times -- I used to play the advocate a lot and wouldi
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JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: Yeah. And --
JOHN: But he must have come across also as
pretty young to --
STEVE: He was. At that time, he was --
JOHN: -- to be scholarly.
STEVE: -- 26 years old.
JOHN: And, you know, I, I, I can't say that
I would relate to that. I'm of a different faith, but
STEVE: What faith are you?
JOHN: 'Well! I'm Catholic.
STEVE: You are? Uh-huh.
JOHN: Don't hold it against me now.
STEVE: No, no, no, no.
And --
STEVE: I don't judge anybody.JOHN:
JOHN: Well, that's good, because I try --
STEVE: I mean --
JOHN: -- not to also.
STEVE: See, my mother was also Catholic. My
dad was a Lutheran. So I had a, a background where
they believed in God and ultimately there was influence
of my dad so I fought the Adventists Indiscernible!.
So,_ I, I --
JOHN: That's all right. I've got a wife
Q--: 4_¢--22
that was Baptist, but I --
STEVE: Is that right?
JOHN: -- converted her. .
STEVE: Um-hum. That's a pretty --
JOHN: That wasn't easy.
STEVE: -- task.
JOHN: It wasn't easy.
STEVE: No, that's rare that a Baptist
becomes Catholic.
JOHN: She's a Batholic now.
STEVE: Laughing.!
JOHN: "But that's --
STEVE: First time I've heard that.
JOHN: But, you know, we look upon the
theologians, really, as, you know, more elderly and
scholarly and everything. And that's why I said it
must have come as quite a shock to the system when this
young fellow's down here expounding the virtues, as he
was, to you.
STEVE: Um-hum. Well, this is true.
JOHN: You know, when you, when you first met
David.
STEVE: This is true.
JOHN: Because, generally, we look at, look
at the, the real young ones when they're, when they're
taking that attitude as where, where are you --
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STEVE: John, I'd, I'd give anything in this
world to be able to have him sit down with the greatest
scholars that there's ever been. I was with him in
Jerusalem --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- and I met some rabbis that were
awesome deep thinkers with such quick logic, very
articulate, able to communicate quickly, and I observed
a debate between a young Jewish guy, maybe 19, 20 years
of age, and a rabbi who was very seasoned. And the
conversation, as the logic developed, was so deep and
quick, I was able towfollow with no problem. It's just
I had to jump into the conversation. I mean, these
guys were talented. They had some gifts. _
JOHN: Can you imagine how many people would
like to sit down with him?
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: I mean right now.
STEVE: There are -- well, that is true.
There's always been --
JOHN: And, and I'm talking about members of
the religious community would probably like to sit down
with him right now as a result of what they've heard,
that they're probably totally illiterate as to his
philosophies and his interpretations of some of these -
- I'll bet you that an awful lot of them would like to
~
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sit down and, and get into some pretty deep, lengthy
discussions with him. Of course, obviously, it's going
to happen when he comes out because a lot of these
people have the opportunity to spend some time with
him. You know, whether he's in a medical facility or
any other facility, they'll certainly have --
STEVE: You would know more about that than I
would.
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE: You would know more about that than
myself.
I JOHN: dwell, that's, that's a matter of fact.
STEVE: You know, I mean, since Sunday, since
Sunday, I mean, what has all taken place, I, in
honesty, don't have the foggiest idea where one stands
in relation to all the events.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, the media's constantly
getting inquiries about, about this particular group.
You know, of course, you hear the, the media addressing
it --
STEVE: Well, I know they --
JOHN: -- as a cult and David doesn't like to
hear that, and I certainly won't -- wouldn't use that
word in talking to you because it's got a lot of
negative connotations.
STEVE: I do realize, I do realize there'd
25
have to be charges, but whoever comes out there was a
lot of bad things -
JOHN: As I said, there's not charges against
everyone. And David's --
STEVE: Right. - _
JOHN: -- not a fool and he's, he's a bright
person and he knows He is the leader and he is going to
be charged with something. I'd be a buffoon to tell
you it wasn't going to happen, wouldn't I?
STEVE: Umhum.
JOHN: And, and you've got to accept that.
STEVE:' The'question is, you know, it's
always of course, even from your own perspective,
you know, I mean, a person talks about war, what's war,
what isn't war, what is being - is defending your own
life. Of course, you know, the, the details of how the
men approached, who they were, did they make themselves
known. I mean, there's so many things that - I mean,
I was there and, I tell you what, the account of the
people here that were scattered all over the building,
I mean a lot of these people did not know until there
was a shout that there was certain vehicles approaching
in the driveway.
This is I mean, you know, on the news of
course your agency over and over again has made it seem
like that there was a tipoff from a phone call. In
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honesty and truth, as I, I told some of the media
Sunday when I spoke with them, that was not the case.
But David did - that Sunday morning I was there. I
got up that morning when, when Robert was sitting there
in the foyer and sat down - I was, I was a little on
the tired side. Robert had gone to bed about 12 or
later. He left here about twelve o'clock.
JOHN: David said this evening that he knew
they were coming.
STEVE: Well, he did, he really did. He
suspected it, as I did myself.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I mean, first of all --
JOHN: I mean, he didn't say he just presumed
they were coming. He said he knew they were coming.
STEVE: I mean, the FBI - I, I would hope
that the FBI is more efficient - I mean, I've always
had the highest respect for that agency, I have. I
mean, being brought up as a young boy that believes in
the police and as a protective agency for the people,
they themselves being family men and oriented in that
manner, I mean, I've always thought highly of the FBI
and I know they've done a lot of good work through the
years. But, at the same time, the ATF is someone I was
not familiar with 'cause I have never been into
drinking, you know, really, or - except for this group
.20- ,_
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does have an occasional beer once in a great while,
always in moderation if it is. K _
But, at the same time, we're not -- of
course, you know, like even firearms, that part is
something new to me. I've never been involved, being
in a family that more -- very strongly pacifist.
So all that took place with that was something new to
me, you know, and this agency and how they work. But I
did see once a video, not that long ago, about that
agency, about like - yeah, I think he mentioned to you
about - something about breaking the law or something
like that, and that's just those police officers who
were given certain charges after being on the force for
20 some odd years. Are you talking to someone else?
JOHN: Uhuh.
STEVE: _N0?
JOHN: Just trying to pick something up.
STEVE: Okay. But, anyway, you know, those
are the things that do make you wonder. I mean, the
way the thing came about, how it happened. I mean, I
would have expected much more professionalism than,
than was shown by the guys across the street. I
mean --
JOHN: Well, you know, Murphy's, Murphy's Law
comes into effect sometimes, too, doesn't it?
STEVE: Yeah. Well, I guess so.
u
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JOHN: when things can go wrong, they go
wrong.
STEVE: I mean, you tell me, why --
. JOHN: But I'm not going to sit here in
judgment.
STEVE: No, but --
JOHN: Of them, nor am I going
judgment of you.
STEVE: No, but in the future,
tell me. Five to seven guys move in and
out in the middle of the country, across
of a, a cult. And I mean -- and they're
JOHN: Well
STEVE: And
JOHN: - I
he didn't either, youthese guys --
don't want to call
know.to sit in
yourself, you
they're way
from some kind
it a cult, and
STEVE: Well, you know, I'm not offended
anyway because, you know, I mean, it's such a small
group of people, it's no great big orthodox church with
some multimillions of members and - but, anyway, you
know, I mean, he went through all the details I'm sure
with you about it.
JOHN: Why do you think, why do you think
David had all those weapons in there?
STEVE: I don't know. And it didn't even
really start that long ago, in honesty. It really
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JOHN: -- off the top of my head, really.
STEVE: John, I believe that, I really do.
And I'd love to be -- you wouldn't believe I'd like to
open up and say a lot of things, but until I know a
little more about -- -
JOHN: Well, you know, like --
STEVE: -- what are the possibilities, of
course --
JOHN: Well, like I told David when we were
talking about the system, and, and like I, I explained
to you as well about what, what will happen when, when
everyone comes out, it, it may not be a perfect system
but it's the best system in the world, our judicial
system. And we all have certain rights, privileges and
freedoms under the Constitution. And by, by we, I
don't mean me and the people out here, I mean you and
the people in there as well.
And, believe me, the federal judicial system
protects those rights in a strong, strong manner. I
mean, it's not a -- it's not taken in a lackadaisical
manner at all. It's, it's very serious and, and the
judges and, and the other people are very serious about
it. I don't know if you've ever spent any time inside
a federal courthouse, but it, it's a totally different
atmosphere than in a --
STEVE: Yeah, I'm sure it is.
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JOHN: - in a state or a local --
STEVE: I've had tickets, of course, traffic
tickets and I have -- 1 -
V JOHN: That won't get you into a federal
facility.
STEVE: No, I'm sure.
JOHN: But -- and, and I tried to explain to
him that, you know, there is a presumption of innocence
and that's what the judicial system is all about, and,
and he has to understand that. And he gets his day in
court and he gets his day with the media and, and he
can have the best attorneys money can buy, you know.
And, and these people have an obligation to him to
bring out what he feels is the truth. And, on the
other hand, of course the government's going to bring
out its side of the story, and I'd be foolish to tell
you that they're not.
But the system is the system, and the system
works for us all. And even though at times maybe we
don't like the system -- and, and he got into quite a
lengthy dialogue with me about the problems that he had
in 19, you know, '87-88.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And that, and that's difficult and
that's, that's --
STEVE: I think that was something more
A--.4.-=- -32
confined to a local mentality --
JOHN: Sure, sure it was.
STEVE: -- or a mind-set. It would seem to
me it's almost like the movies, where you see some of
these old stereotype southern places where you --
JOHN: You're not a good old boy.
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: You know?
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: And --N
STEVE: There's a certain way of doing
things. And I must admit --
JOHN: when you have your local, your local
norms and your local Indiscernible! and all of these
things enter into it.
STEVE: Positively.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: And even in those days, I couldn't
help but go along with the way people might view
something because they hear about somebody digging up a
body. I mean what on earth you know, this George
Roden, I never have met the guy but --
JOHN: Me either.
STEVE: Not that I'd even want to or need to,
to associate oneself with such a personality, but the
other guy dug up a grave. And I suppose he told you
_, 4
033
the whole story about - and then he calls -- gets a
hold of David's phone number and --
JOHN: Yeah, yeah, I heard it.
STEVE: Anyway --
JOHN: I heard him telling Henry about it the
other night.
STEVE: But you tell - one of these days
maybe someone can tell me why the authorities didn't
act on corpse abuse or -- they were - and it was told
to them. They should have investigated themselves, not
told these young men from Hawaii, my friends, that they
needed to go on the property, take pictures. And then
the thing is when they did, honestly, when they did,
they had pictures of a, of a casket. They were told by
this Dickerson to go back onto the property, they
needed pictures or bones. That's when that shootout
took place. That's when this man came out of his
trailer with a semiautomatic Uzi and started firing on
some of these guys that had .22's, had, had come along
to only get -- maybe to shoot some rounds in the air to
distract the man.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Until they had the evidence. Of
course, it never happened that way. And when the
Sheriff's Department came onto the property, they were
happy to throw down their arms. They thought they were92
4--
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coming to assist, because they knew that the department
knew about what they were doing, that they were there
trying to gain the evidence. But, instead, they were
slapped with handcuffs, laying in the gravel, facing
the gravel, fire ants biting them and, I mean, got
treated as PLOL terrorists and all sorts of nonsense.
JOHN: Yeah, he was, he was telling Henry.
STEVE: It was, it was a travesty of
injustice, no question about it. It was. I followed
it along myself and was, was shocked. The kind of
money it took to be able to even --
JOHN: "You don't recoup that money, either,
do you? A
STEVE: No, you don't. There's no way you
can.
JOHN: That's a difficult thing. It's not a
civil litigation where someone doesn't find in your
favor and so you get your money back. But, you know,
the federal system as I was saying, you've got 12
independent people who are going to sit there. And
just because people are inside that compound doesn't
mean they're going to be charged with something.
STEVE: NO, I --
JOHN: As I, as I tried to explain that.
STEVE: don't go along with those idea.
There's a lot of people here that are that, in fact,
0-4-- 43' ..-,_._
035
when it comes down to many aspects, don't know one
thing from another.
JOHN: In, in the federal system, you have to
have a unanimous -- Any type of decision has to be
unanimous, you know, all 12 people. Well, they're
going to hear both sides of the story, aren't they?
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And, and it's going to be a thorough
story. You know --
STEVE: Well, I think, I think --
JOHN: I asked David when I was talking to
him earlier this evening and David said he hadn't, if
he hadn't I guess chosen the way of life that he's
chosen, he probably would have been involved in law
enforcement.
STEVE: I wouldn't be surprised.
JOHN: And I said, God, I don't think you
want that headache.
STEVE: No.
JOHN: It's not like it used to be years ago
and --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And I asked him, I said David, if you
were in law enforcement, I said you put yourself in, in
my shoes today, in our shoes today, what would you do
to resolve this situation? You've got to communicate,i
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don't you? You have to talk.
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: Maybe there was a lack of -
communication six days ago, but you have to --
STEVE: Quite obviously.
JOHN:
STEVE:
what - today weYou know, you have to communicate.
Can I ask you, John, what, what do,
heard contradictory statements by the
ATF agent that was in the news, in the press
conference. We -- I don't know if one of them told me
that well, anyway, right along from the beginning it
was that they had come to serve a warrant, an arrest
warrant, for or to him.
JOHN:
STEVE:Uhhuh. .
And now we hear that that in fact was
not true. I don't know if that was you asked that --
JOHN:
initially and I,
a search warrant
STEVE:
JOHN:
his person.
STEVE:
JOHN:
that he had been
things --No. I, I made, I made a mistake
and I corrected it. They were serving
on the compound --
Okay, on the compound.
-- and an arrest, an arrest warrant on
I see.
Because he was talking about the fact
out jogging and walking around and
Q.1 <37
STEVE: Oh, that's true.
JOHN: days before. But I said if you
don't have a warrant, you can walk around all-you want.
If, if a federal judge, a federal magistrate has not
issued a warrant, they don't have any right to stop you
or do anything else to you. So that's why.
STEVE: Well, he's been in town even. He
took a trip - well, him and I both. I was in
California --
JOHN: But the warrant probably wasn't
outstanding.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN: You know, the warrant hadn't been
issued. So if it hasn't been issued, they certainly
can't stop you or interfere with you in any way. So I
hope that clears that up.
STEVE: Well, see, that's why he figured if
he was an agent - I mean, they would have never been
hurt. The guy's never hit anybody, he's never
threatened anyone.
JOHN: Well, I guess the thing that probably
bothered him more than anything was, was the, the
weapons that were out there.
STEVE: What, bothered who, the agent?
JOHN: Sure, sure.
STEVE: I mean, well, what weapons? Or what
_I 438
did he know for sure?
JOHN: Well, we --
STEVE: I mean -- .
JOHN: We all know for sure now, don't we?
STEVE: Well, yeah, but, I mean, even myself,
I was totally in the dark until all this came about.
JOHN: Yeah. I mean, we, we know and, heck,
it's been in the media, people have come forth and, you
know, everybody's got to get their story to tell,
right, and about the weapons that David's been buying
for the, the last several months or years or whatever.
STEVE:' He hasn't hidden that at all. He's
been very open about it. He's in fact --
JOHN: Well, you just said what -- you didn't
know about these weapons.
STEVE: No, I know, but, I mean, I'm not
talking about all, I'm talking to the degree that he's
been to gun shows and so forth.
JOHN: Believe me, if I was going to go knock
on somebody's door and execute a search warrant or an
arrest warrant and I knew they had .50-caliber machine
guns in there and Law rockets --
STEVE: But Robert honestly got --
JOHN: -- that would scare me to death.
STEVE: Not at all. Robert got to see the
demeanor of the man, his spirit and attitude, his
}¢'Q-1-:..-4--39
character.
JOHN: Yeah, but you understand the role
Robert was playing, huh? -
STEVE: Oh, I do.
JOHN: I mean now, now, to look back on it,
to understand the role.
STEVE: Even then. I want to tell you, you
wanted to know how the tip-off and all that came about.
Well, I - what I think, what I do recall was kind of a
strange situation.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: It was Sunday morning. I think it
was - well, number one, God revealed it to him, and
that's, you know, that's going to be hard for the press
and others --
JOHN: To who?
STEVE: - to believe. To David. Cause I
was sitting there --
JOHN: He revealed what?
STEVE: Revealed to David who and what was
happening.
JOHN: Oh.
STEVE: Because I was there when David made
the statements to Robert in regards to what he had to
do, do it, or whatever.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
4-: <
040
STEVE: And he did give him a couple of
warnings, but not, not in, not in a bad way.
JOHN: Not in an aggressive, threatening way?
4 STEVE: No, no, not at all. But only for
himself.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And, I mean, I was surprised, like
David, when if there was a warrant to be served, why
didn't you say look, David, there's questions that need
to be asked of you, we'd like you to come down and so
forth. I mean, why was -- I mean, these people here,
none of them have ever been involved in any kind of
hard-core -- any crime or any kind of crime --
JOHN: Well, what you have to remember is ATF
agents don't sign a warrant for somebody's arrest or a
search warrant. This is done by a federal judge, and
the federal judge signs the warrant. And if he signed
the warrant on Saturday or on Sunday, that's when you
execute the warrant.
STEVE: You know what I'd like to do? I
wonder if it would ever be possible for us to look at
the evidences that the --
JOHN: You bet.
STEVE: -- the world has seen.
JOHN: Absolutely.
STEVE: I'm, I'm talking about now. I'm
Q--: 4_,__,talking about now. I was told that --41
JOHN: Well, the only way that you're going
to see it is --
STEVE: I heard that the press filmed the
approach of the choppers and so forth and, and some of
how this began.
JOHN: I'm sure they did.
STEVE: And that it's been played -- a lot of
the people in the United States, the majority have seen
that.
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:You bet.
Is it possible for us --
There's several things that --
- to see a video of that, for us
see what was coming about or what was happening?
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
being, I'm being
about it.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
were storming up
weapons showing,
JOHN:The minute you come out.
Well, you know --
What can I tell you? I mean, I'm
very practical and very realistic
Just what was --
We're not just going to --
I mean, what was their plan when
to the door, running with assault
ready to be used?
Hey, I've got to tell you, Ito
they
Q
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wasn't --
STEVE: I'm telling you.
JOHN: I was not in the State of Texas when
it happened.
STEVE: I was, I was right there. I heard
the, the -- I heard David -- I didn't hear them, I
never heard them say a word.
JOHN: You know, you said that he had -- the
Lord told him that they were coming. David told me
earlier this evening that it was very clear in his mind
one of the first times that he met Robert that -- who,
who Robert was and --
STEVE: Well, I agree. He told me --
JOHN; -- what Robert's identity was.
STEVE: He himself told me that. I went out
to California --
JOHN: That would have been a clue that
Robert's going to be coming some day, isn't it?
STEVE: Not -- no, not at all. Not at all.
JOHN: If they, if they find --
STEVE: Not the way the FBI works. I would
think that they'd have somebody over time and, you
know, using wisdom and sense and so forth. That's why
we didn't hide anything. He took him through the
building and out the back. They brought --
JOHN: He showed him all the weapons and
@-: ¢43
everything?
STEVE: I doubt that he did that. y
JOHN: Well -- *
, STEVE: But, I mean, well, you know what I
mean, who --
JOHN: -- I mean, that was one of the serious
issues, wasn't it?
STEVE: Well, who knows for sure why they
were coming? Honestly, I mean, I never gave it any
thought about that. Q
JOHN: I mean, I'm not trying to, you know,
be antagonistic. Q
STEVE: No, I know you're not. I know you're
not and I don't mind, you know, that you ask it that
way.
JOHN: $ure.
STEVE: That's fine. .But, no, seriously, I
mean, who knows I mean, Mark Broe and some of these
people that have, that have heard his studies, have
backed and supported him and talked so highly of him --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- and then changed and went the
other direction, they have contacted every kind of an
agency that there is in the American Government.
JOHN: Why do you think they did that?
STEVE: Because, number one --
____> <...,-_
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JOHN: Just their own animosity?
STEVE: No, I'll tell you why. No, see, I
believe there is a spirit in this world. There's a
spirit of the world and there's a spirit of God. And
just like Christ, I don't know if you believe in
possession or whatever, what it says in the Bible that
Christ cast demonic spirits out of people that were
possessed 2,000 years ago. And that those people would
walk in the light of God's truth and those spiritual
beings that had moved these people into do things that
we would call insane or border on mental disorders
would, would then return with multiple mental problems.
Basically, this is what the Bible shows.
JOHN: Yeah. .
STEVE: So David warned these people. Look,
if you don't walk and continue in the truth, the spirit
of the world which you are not partaking of now will be
the major factor in your life. So Mark Broe, when he
walked away, for six months I have got letter after
letter, how he says I still believe like you do, you're
my friends. But you could see over time, that over six
months, seven, eight months, he started changing.
JOHN: Yeah. '
STEVE: And pretty soon, then came the
slander and all the rest, the rumors, the innuendos.
And I've got all the correspondence from him.i
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Ultimately, he's going to about every agency there is.
I found that out right away. But we did not care.
Sure, we could have gotten an attorney and gone after
him for slander, but we thought look, if our movement
is of God, let God take care of it. If it's not, why
worry about it, let it fall to the wayside. If it
never was of God, why even invest your time? So, for
that reason, well, he continued on.
And this is where, if you look back at your
notes there as to a number of things, well, he, he drew
Sherry Jewel into a court battle with her former
husband in Michigan. wI was there. I came as a
material witness, to, to give evidence as of things I
knew about Mark Broe from the time I met him in '78.
So I've know right along Mark --
JOHN: Q0 you, do you think that there could
have been some kind of a, a conspiracy on their part?
STEVE: Well, no question about it. Mark
would do --
JOHN: Do you?
STEVE: He would have but sell his soul to
take David out of this world and take him out of the
picture.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Because I really truly believe Mark
was convicted that the truth was shown to him. He will
on.
!¢--_46
not rest and be settled until David and this group is
broke up, cause he's afraid that this group will yet
fulfill prophecy. .
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: But if the group doesn't exist, well,
it soothes his conscience. Does that make sense?
JOHN: Do you think there are others out
there trying to do the same thing?
STEVE: Well, yeah, because in the beginning
people like the Gents, who were part of this
organization, also were with us for some time. In
fact, they were involved before I was, before I knew
David. This Lisa Gent had met him --
JOHN:y Pete Gent's people?
STEVE: Exactly. Parents.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So they had met him before me and
talked very highly. I finally met Lisa Gent and then
ultimately her husband Bruce. And after - there was a
fall out, and David even said Steve, go back to
Australia, which I did in November of '90, and let them
present their beliefs or how they differ from us, and
if they have something, we'll, we'll all look it over.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So, I mean, we went through all that.
It took some money to fly over there and back.
-__> <JOHN:
STEVE:
beginning --
JOHN:
though.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
be disappointed
JOHN:
STEVE:Sure. Sure.
You know, so right from the
someplace I'd like to go in my life,
Well, if you -- well, anyway.
Am I going to be disappointed?
Probably. Well, yeah, sure, you'll
It's the world.
No, I mean Australia.
I know. But, you know, I'm being a
little, you know, evérything's just -- and this, Jim,
as time goes on --
JOHN:
I, I think --Hey, I'd never been to Waco before and
STEVE: Hey, I wouldn't want to come back.
would you? I don't know --
JOHN:
circumstances.
STEVE: After living in Hawaii and I've beenWell, maybe not under these
just about every state --
JOHN:
STEVE: I've -- well, it's funny you mention
that place.
JOHN:How about Lafayette, Louisiana?
Have you ever been there?
STEVE: Oh, many, many times.
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JOHN: Have you?
STEVE: I have relatives there.
JOHN: You've got to be kidding. Is their
name Beroux phonetic sp.! or Thibodeaux?
STEVE:' It's neither, but are you actually
from Lafayette, Indiana, or something?
JOHN: Louisiana.
STEVE: Oh, Louisiana, Lafayette, Louisiana.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I was thinking you said Indiana.
JOHN: NO.
STEVE: There is a Lafayette --
JOHN: The only thing they know how to do in
Indiana is play basketball.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: No, Louisiana.
STEVE: well, you've got that right.
JOHN: Louisiana. You don't have relatives
in Louisiana, huh?
STEVE: No, I don't. I don't. I was
thinking Indiana.
JOHN: Oh. A lot of money's been spent, you
know, by David and throughout this whole thing. Like
you say, the trips that he's made and the trips to the
Holy Land and --
STEVE: And virtually --
End Tape #63!
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2;U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #64
3/6/93
1:02 A.M. 1:50 A.M.
_
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STEVE: -- pretty good. But he's never, you
know, the - why did he buy these things like the car
for instance and the Harley? Well, I was there with
him when he did. They were used to reach a genre, an
aspect of society that most religionists leave alone.
Meaning people that are - that call themselves rock
and rollers --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- that are into the music scene.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: You know. Yeah, and one soul is
worth more than any of this, that is to say, the, the
cycle or the Corvette --
JOHN: You can say that again. _
STEVE: And to show that he doesn't have a
love for those things, he doesn't even drive them.
Never operated the things. The Corvette --
JOHN: Really?
STEVE: Yeah. The Corvette just sits there
and -
JOHN: Yeah. He said he likes his Camaro.
STEVE: Yeah. But it's something he's worked
on. He's, you know, he's mechanically inclined.
JOHN: Sure. Sure.
STEVE: So he put it together himself, worked
hard to put it together --
_ Z-.
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STEVE: - and, and make it right and - but
on the whole, I mean, you know, he's never been into
any of those things. The guy's not into material
things.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: He has - he's got - he has opened
up things to us that are so awesome when it comes to
astronomy, about the worlds yet that exist, the
movement of those worlds, the beings that live and
appreciate and habit those spheres.
JOHN: Well; you got to give him a lot of
credit, huh?
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: For taking that stand, taking that
position? It's, it's a very, you know, unselfish
posture. i
STEVE: But anyway, you know, I figured that
one day it would -- not that it would come like this,
down to an agency or something like this happening by
an agency of the government, but I knew Mark would be
relentless when he --
JOHN: Hey, what's done is done, huh?
STEVE: But --
JOHN: You can't turn it around.
STEVE: No, it's, it's past that stage.
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14have respect --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: -- for freedom - person's choice is
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everything he did. He, in fact, he --
JOHN: Although he was probably considered a
rebel of his time by a lot of people. 1 -
p STEVE: Oh, he was exemplary when it came to
a life of perfection.
JOHN: That's right.
STEVE: In fact, he was to hold up a standard
of the law that was unequaled by any being that's ever
been on this planet.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: But what all the prophets talk about
is a man that comes in the final days with more sins
than the hairs of his head, like in Psalms 40 and in
Isaiah 57 it speaks about the man. I mean there's
countless, countless chapters, countless chapters. The
question is who is this person? Who is it? And that's
where it comes -- where the involvement of the seven
seals are.
There's where the challenge is. The one that
opens up these seals, which is basically all the
scripture in its tenor, in its harmonization. But I, I
can tell, you know, I don't want to keep you on the
phone talking to you about that. But see that's the
challenge though, John, and it may be something that,
you know, you may not have an interest now. I mean,
who knows down the road not far from now, I don't
-
.-: 47
believe that time is going to go on a lot -- very much
longer.
JOHN: Yeah. .
STEVE: I'm not saying, you know, I'm not
talking about immediate or anything but --
JOHN: I want to pass a couple of things by
you, you know, and --
STEVE: Go ahead. Please do.
JOHN: -- and I don't want to keep you up all
night either. _
STEVE: Please do.
JOHN: But,'hell, I'm going to be here, so --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: That doesn't mean you have to be
sitting there listening to me though.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And I asked, I asked David and he said
his communication, I guess, is the bottom line. But if
you were in my place, my meaning me as an individual as
well as me being FBI, how would you try to, how would
you try to resolve this thing?
STEVE: You know, I'd be doing basically the
same, exact thing that you are doing right now.
JOHN: You got to talk, don't you?
STEVE: You do.
JOHN: Sure.
-
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STEVE: I'd even be using the same phrases,
going around in - coming around from every angle,
trying to touch either - pull on a chord from the
heart, the feelings, or maybe --
JOHN: Well, that's what it's all about.
STEVE: -- factual things, whatever.
JOHN: I mean I'm not here to, to B.S.
somebody or anything else.
STEVE: That's why I no. I know. I, I
have a great appreciation of the job that you're trying
to do and alleviating and bringing about resolving all
of this. '
JOHN: Well, there's been a lot of pain on
both sides. A
STEVE: For sure.
JOHN: You know?
STEVE: For sure there has been, but --
JOHN: And I appreciate that.
STEVE: But, you know, one of the
difficulties as you see already that we have stated is
that in part of all of this is an element that -- well,
there's other worldly, which is, is a hard thing to
handle by, you know, someone like yourself --
JOHN: It's very difficult.
STEVE: It is. You know, when the man says
there's a god that audibly speaks to him, that said
Q-.: 4__,__
09
wait, you know, that's it's like I'm giving him a
chance to say, well, look, you've shown me all this
scripture. You've given me a hope in, in another world
and the possibilities of that life and I see it backed
by the Bible ~-
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: and I'm willing to challenge any
man -- maybe not on this earth. I'll sit down at a
table or in any kind of environment and allow that
person to present anything they would like, give me the
opportunity to ask you questions though, and then give
me the opportunity to'give some answers. See? And all
this information that I have now, that I do not see can
be controverted, has come from this man. _
So that's why - see, this is the way the
people are. It's not like you've got all these people
that are just such professionals when it comes to cults
and when it comes to brainwashing and all this
nonsense. Well, when and - the day that happens that
we come out, you can sit down with any psychologist,
sit down with these people. See if they're
brainwashed.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Listen to the logic and the
sensibility.
JOHN: Well, you know, one of the difficult
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things for me to fathom, and I think for Henry and for
Jim and, and for, for Dick
STEVE: Yeah. ,
p JOHN: - was the apparent lack of freedom of
someone to leave. And, and I know you don't look at
that as freedom, and, and, you know, we, we have --
STEVE: Well, what do you mean, John,
because, you know --
JOHN: Where -- it, it's something new to me.
STEVE: What is that?
JOHN: This entire philosophy --
STEVE: sure.
JOHN: -- is something new to me where I
would think, boy, if something's going on like this and
I've got all of these paramilitary people out here
and --
STEVE: Do you have --
JOHN: -- the weapons in here, I'd want to
get away from this thing and I don't want to get
near -~
STEVE: But not if you saw the development
from, from before.
JOHN: But that's probably very true.
STEVE: See, that's the whole thing.
JOHN: And that's new to me.
STEVE: It is. It would be. Because you're
~
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no--:¢11
right --
JOHN: And it's hard to comprehend when
children are coming out and parents are staying in -- I
mean, you were raised I'm sure, I was raised -- the
strength of the parents for the children, right?
STEVE: For sure.
JOHN: And the, and the parents have
children --
STEVE: And --
JOHN: -- they've got a responsibility to
raise them.
STEVE: '-- family ties -- if I were in your
position, I'd be playing on the family ties also right
now, which I notice that you're doing and I'm not
saying any -- you know, when I see --
JOHN: Well, yeah, but I'm not saying it to,
to --
STEVE: And I'm not saying that it's a
wrong --
JOHN: -- jiggle a nerve.
STEVE: No, no, I realize that. You're
trying to do the job that you have got to do and I'm
not going to even, like, break that connection. If you
can make that with anybody here, you know, I'm just --
one thing is for sure.
JOHN: That's what just kind of surprised me
Qnu: <12
is --
STEVE: Well, look -- _ _
JOHN: -- is to see children coming out and,
and talking to what, Sita and Judy and, and some of the
others and, of course, it was before I realized Judy's
husband -- M
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: -- was, was gone. But that -- yes,
they were free to leave anytime they wanted to go, but
no, they had no desire to go. That was just something
totally, totally --
STEVE: It is strange --
JOHN: -- strange for me.
STEVE: Well, it's because, see, it's because
of the little bit that some of you men have heard in
the past few days, but, you know, you're not convicted
that it's true or -- but at the same time, the
stumbling block is the first time you hear about the
man it's through some bizarre way, some bizarre means.
So that, itself, is a stumbling block. It, it's --
it'd be a hard thing probably to pull together that how
could this man be or able to or be someone that could
open up the scriptures when it's associated to
something as to what happened or the investigations,
the rumors --
JOHN: Yeah.
.
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Z513
STEVE: But, see, this is what the Bible
talks about. It talks about -- . .
JOHN: You should listen to the media, you
want to hear rumors and speculations --
STEVE: Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure.
JOHN: And I, and I'm sorry. I said Judy. I
meant Kathy. I didn't --
STEVE: Well, I knew you did. I, I knew you
-- I didn't correct --
JOHN: Don't take any offense.
STEVE: Yeah, no problem there.
JOHN: But you can't believe the speculation
in the media. Everybody's got a brainstorm idea of why
something's happening -- '
STEVE: Oh, I'm sure.
JOHN: =- and what's going on and, and, and
that's, you know, that was an issue that, that we hear
from the media as far as the children are coming out,
the children are - and, and I guess you guys got some
pictures or video or something today of, of the
children. I think you did.
STEVE: It was blank.
JOHN: You're kidding.
STEVE: No. Dick was aware of that.
JOHN: The video?
STEVE: Yeah, the video was blank.
~
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JOHN: Hey --
STEVE: I can send it back. g _
JOHN: -- real government operation there,
huh?
STEVE: Well, it happens.
JOHN: What ahout photographs. Did you get
any photo --
STEVE: Yeah, the photographs, of course, are
fine. They, they turned out.
JOHN: Well, it's - at least the parents can
see that they're in good shape. J
STEVE: I think one of the women were asking
about one of the children - oh. Jamie, the
crippled -- .
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: _- boy was, of course, not in that
group.
JOHN: I saw him when he came out.
STEVE: You did, huh?
JOHN: Yeah. Cute little guy, huh?
STEVE: I, I figured that he probably was
needing special help or something in another area,
so ~-
JOHN: I'm sure. But he's kind of a nifty
little guy, isn't he? In his own little world?
STEVE: I -- yeah. I've never really been
?TQ
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015
around him too much, to be honest with you.
JOHN: I spent some time with him, talking to
him '
- STEVE: You did, huh?
JOHN: - and he wasn't talking to me, of
course, but --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: - you, you got to be warm and loving
to them and squeeze them and hug them, you know.
STEVE: Right. Right.
JOHN: Cause they need a lot of love. I've
got a god-daughter that's got a Down Syndrome and,
hell, she's in her mid3Os.
STEVE: Oh, she is? -
JOHN: which normally they don't live that
long. __ _
STEVE: No, they don't. That's true.
JOHN: And you got to give them a lot of
love.
STEVE: So, John, so you're all the way from
Louisiana then, huh?
JOHN: Oh, it's not that far.
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN: About 400 miles or so.
STEVE: To do - do you do a lot of traveling
or, I mean, is --
_
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v16
JOHN: Not too much. Not, not too often,
but we got the best food in the world down there.
STEVE: Well, this is what I hear, you know.
I hear that a lot.
JOHN: As long as you like cayenne pepper.
STEVE: Is that right? .
JOHN: Yeah, it's pretty hot stuff.
STEVE: That's interesting. Well, that's --
it's a very healthy herb to be used --
JOHN: And they're fun people down there.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Theyre - they, they, they work hard,
they play hard, and if you like seafood -- and of
course I understand the religion as far as the, the
shellfish and pork --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- and things like that, but we have
plenty of other seafood besides shellfish down there.
STEVE: Right. Well, you know we -- some of
the women noticed that in the pictures what they were
eating were hot dogs and so right away they were
concerned, of course --
JOHN: They were not --
STEVE: They weren't pork, huh?
JOHN: - pork hot dogs.
STEVE: - either chicken, turkey, or beef,
Q--n 4.:-- -
017
you know, there'd be no problems at all. I figured as
much. I didn't think --
JOHN: No indeed. There is absolutely no
way --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- nobody was going to try and offend
anyone that way.
STEVE: And if you want -- hey, if -- John,
if you ever want to know why it's that way, we believe
that way, just read sometime Isaiah 66, verses 15
through 17. It says how God will come with flaming
chariots to destroy people, because they've eaten
swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse. Now
what does that mean? well, God made a list of animals
he did not want man to eat --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- because they're living sewers. A
pig will eat its own feces. It'll eat -- it eats dead,
decaying things. Now, if a human being thrives on the
flesh of that animal, you're going to -- your longevity
will be shortened seriously. There are certain
meats --
JOHN: What did it say about shellfish.
STEVE: Well, it -- I'll be honest with you,
shellfish are not allowed either in the Bible.
JOHN: No, and, and I realize it.
-: .if ..._..
u18
STEVE: But fish with scales, trout, mahi
mahi, tuna, all of those are okay. If they have fins
and if they have scales, they are allowed to be eaten,
but you and I wouldn't think about sitting down and
eating a mouse or a buzzard or a mole, but --
JOHN: You'd have to be pretty hungry.
STEVE: Well, see, those things are in the
same category as a pig, though.
JOHN: Sure, sure.
STEVE: But, you know, this is what that book
says and either -- see, we follow it wholly or not at
all. Either it's totally true or it's --
JOHN: Well, absolute, right?
STEVE: For me, if that book isn't
well, to me there is no God. I'm going back
to live and live my life, as short as it may
the most I can, and that'll be it. But I --true,
to Hawaii
be, get
see, I'm
still leaning on that there is a God. That I'm a
complex being and that there's something better. And
even though I don't totally agree with it all the time
-- I mean, maybe what the -- who this God is, what he
does, I don't like to see what's happened to
at large.
JOHN: Yeah.humanity
STEVE: Well, I'm hoping that one day God
will show a greater wisdom and maybe that this sin,
?_.Q-_:<_4_19
this world and its problems, it'll never rise up a
second time like it says in the Book of Nahum.
JOHN: Well, you hope you, you we all hope
we see these things in our lifetime.
STEVE: Well, we do, we do. But I'm one of
those people that want to try to do my best to ensure
that if there's a hereafter, I'm, I'm banking on --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I'm putting my cards, I'm putting all
my money in that corner, because for me this world I
see it's short, it can end anytime. It's very
uncertain, the world,and, and peoples trying to gain
happiness. You get bits and pieces of it, but again
it's always eroding. So this is why a wise man is a
man that tries to grasp and have the priority of the
eternal things before him. So, see, that's the way
this group is, if that makes sense to you at all. And
that's the way a lot of --
JOHN: It, it was, particularly the first
couple of days, very difficult to grasp.
STEVE: I'm sure, but, see, it gets down to
- if you ever noticed, if you ever took a concordance
and you went through the Bible, you look up the word
fear, for instance.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: It says, fear God, fear God, fear
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JOHN:
STEVE:20
I do.
Well, I know, but I meant r I don't
mean you, I - at large, the Bible says fear God,
because --
JOHN:
STEVE:Sure, sure.
- God's going to do everything he
says he's going to do in that book. So if you read
Acts chapter 3, verse 20 and 21, it says, everything
written by the mouth of every holy prophet since the
beginning of the world, it says, will come to pass.
Otherwise God's a liar and the prophets are - you
can't buy it, they're false. So, see, this is why we
take the book wholeheartedly - _
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
though, there --
interpret things
STEVE:
JOHN:
unless they wereYeah.
- and, and in it's totality.
well, you know, one of the things is,
and, and so many different religions
different ways.
And I'm glad you said that.
And, and I don't fault any of them
violent, you know, and, and of course
in, in my teaching of police officers in some of the
courses that I teach them and, and one of the things I
talk to them about is Islam. And of course that gets a
bad name, right? Because of all the problems in the -
Q
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_-.:421
STEVE: Well, it didn't start out bad.
JOHN: -- in the Middle East.
STEVE! Right. ' "
. JOHN: No. But I'm talking about -- you
mention Islam today and all they think about is
bombings and they think about --
STEVE: Well, they're a faction --
JOHN: -- Beirut and they think about --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- all the negative things, yet
probably --
STEVE: The Shiites --
JOHN: -- 99 percent of all of the people in
the world that practice it are very God-fearing good
people.
STEVE: _Exactly. Exactly.
JOHN: You know, and, and it's the ones that
just have some really bent interpretations of it and,
and --
STEVE: Well, see, this is where most - when
I deal with ministers of many --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- different -- like I've heard of
quite of few of these on the talk shows, how they've
reacted to David's very simple presentation in that 56
minutes. I mean that, that is nothing. That -- when
-
§
Q-_O O
22
he - when I first met him, when he opened up to me in
the first two hours six and a half years ago was way
beyond that. And right away you get all of this
negative reaction by a lot of the scholars. These
scholars don't know their head from a hole in the
ground. They agree with no one but themselves.
This is why in the Book of Isaiah, chapter
41, God calls these men islands. They're, they're on
their own. They don't see eyetoeye with anybody.
They're so proud because of all their degrees and what
they have found and - but at the same time, there's --
according to the Bible only one truth, one spirit, one
body, and so forth. So, when I met David I mean, I
already understood like in II Peter 1:12 it says,
you're to be established in the present truth.
That means in every generation there's a
truth that God would have whoever his people are to
know. And further on in that chapter it goes on to
say, know this first it says in verse 20, that no, no
prophecy of the scripture is of any private
interpretation. That's what it says, John. So the
Bible was written by inspired men and women as God
willed that they saw certain things in regards to the
future. Does that make sense?
JOHN: Sure. Sure.
STEVE: And it says - so it goes on without
Q-I <_,___23
saying that however God would open it up, it would not
be a guessing game. You come along and you read it,
well I think it means this, I feel it means this, my
opinion, my theory. So God, in the right time and the
right time of schedule, opens up those things
pertaining to the time that it's to be fulfilled.
So, see, this is how the Bible works. So no
matter - so if you go to the Book of Daniel, for an
example, you have 12 chapters there and some of those
visions recorded there were by the great king,
Nebudchanezzar of Babylon. Some were by Daniel the
Prophet, the Israeli that was taken off into captivity,
into Babylonian captivity. But he, himself, as it goes
on to record, did not understand all that was shown to
him so he's fainting half the times in chapter 8 to 12.
But when I, when I, when I approach a scholar
like I have in London and I say to these men, show me
in chapter 11 and 12 of Daniel who the King of the
North is, who the King of the South is. Who's this
power that scatters God's holy people in the final days
of earth history? Who is Michael, the great prince
that stands up, and there's going to be a time of
trouble like the earth has never seen before since
there's been a nation. y
And they sit there going ah, well, ah. And
then I say, let's look a little further over here at
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2_schapter 12, verse 10, it says -- it talks about those
that walk with the wicked will do wickedly --
JOHN: Well, do you, do you travel_a lot?
STEVE: Well, I used to --
JOHN:
STEVE: -- right up until about oh, I'd say
two years ago ITo speak to --
did a little bit. I shouldn't say a
lot. A little bit here and there.
JOHN:
like I understand Baylor University is supposed to be,
you know --Would, would you -- I mean, would --
STEVE: It's a fairly -- it's a --
JOHN: -- quite a hub of the Baptist --
STEVE: It is.
JOHN: -- church.
STEVE: I believe it's their largest
university.
JOHN: And, and I guess you could go up to
Catholic University in Washington, D.C., or
Georgetown --
STEVE:
JOHN:
but Catholic U.
STEVE:
JOHN:
like Baylor or,Right.
Georgetown you get the, the Jesuits,
you get the others and --
Right, right.
-- do you, do you sit down at places
or other --
Q-> <._"¢- -25
STEVE: Yes I have.
JOHN: - universal settings and talk to
their theologians?
STEVE: Exactly. I have.
JOHN: That's got to be pretty interesting
though.
STEVE: Oh, it is. In fact, when I first ran
into David, of course, I wanted to rip him apart. So I
took his information to these kind of men hoping --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- that they, they would have the
ability to do it, because I didn't.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: In fact, when I first learned about
David, I went to at least 20 minister friends
associates of mine.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And I gave them the information
myself. David would have --
JOHN: I bet I know what they told you too.
STEVE: Well, they weren't able to controvert
it.
JOHN: Really?
STEVE: No, not in the least. I mean --
JOHN: They didn't try - I bet they tried,
though, didn't they?
~
._¢- -
v26
STEVE: Oh, you bet they tried. You bet they
did.
JOHN: Sure, sure. .
I STEVE: In fact, that's why I gave you an
example of Daniel 12, the scholar I dealt with in
London.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE: when I said to the man, well, look
here in chapter 12, verse 10. It says the wicked will
do wickedly, it says, and none of the wicked will
understand, but the wise shall understand. Well, look
at that statement I asked the man. Well, you go ahead
now and you show me from the Bible who the King of the
North is, who the King of the South is. _
The man goes, well, I can't. And I says, but
you're making money off the masses because you're
supposed -- they're paying you because you went to some
higher form of education you gained and you should have
the ability now to show them what these things mean.
Well, the man couldn't.
JOHN: Sure, sure.
STEVE: Because the Bible writers,
themselves, says it does not come because a man spends
years gaining degrees. This is the Bible. This is
moved by the Spirit of the living God. And God's got a
plan and it involves laying a snare for the world. The
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Z5world that's so caught up into living for
just -- and mouthing God's name, which is
name at all. I mean, I would not want to
John, but his name never --
JOHN: Take your best shot. Go
not --27
today and
not even his
offend you,
ahead. I'm
STEVE: Okay. But his name never was Jesus
in the
JOHN: I'll let that just slide
and I, I won't be offended.first place 2,000 years ago and that's a, a --
right on by
STEVE: I don't think, I don't think it would
bother you anyway, but --
JOHN: I don't think so.
STEVE: -- that's a, that's a Greek
transliteration into the English. His name actually
was Yeshua, Yeshua the Messiah. But the --
JOHN: Listen. When I got married, the, the
priest that married my wife and I, I'd known for
years --
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN: - and he's last I heard he was a
Bishop in Richmond, Virginia --
STEVE: WOW.
JOHN: - which is not where wegot married
at all, but it's where he is. And he told my wife, who
was at that time not a Catholic, don't let him try to
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2528
influence you. I mean, in, in the old school in the
Catholic church it was, you know, you married
Catholics, etc., etc., etc. _
STEVE: That's true. I do remember those
days.
JOHN: And you stuck together and, and - or
-- and he just said hey, don't let him try to influence
you to do this.
call me and I'll tell
The only thing we ask
-- but that's the wayIf you're not comfortable with it,
him to mind his own business.
is that you raise the children so
it was for 20, at least 25 years
and she decided after 25 years of marriage that she --
STEVE:
JOHN:
I, I didn't --
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
ask --
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
me --
STEVEWell, that's one thing --
- she wanted to become Catholic. So
Is that right?
-- didn't push~her into that --
-- just amazing, totally amazing.
Didn't push her into it. Let me
Sure.
I wanted to tell you something.
All right.
I, I got a note pushed in front of
Okay.
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JOHN: -- that they're going to be moving
some of those vehicles around probably in about 15
minutes, going through a shift change or something out
there.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: So don't get concerned about it,
because I know it's still dark out I presume. I'm been
inside -- yeah, it's 1:25. It's still dark out, but
don't be concerned. They're just --
STEVE: I do --
JOHN: -- they're going through a shift
change.
STEVE: I really haven't. You know,
that's --
JOHN: But I want to communicate with you and
I want to let you know what's going to happen.
STEVE: It's only when they're on the
property, which of course they have been down --
JOHN: Well, they, they may be. I don't
know.
STEVE: Well, see, that's, you know, that was
one of the biggest problems you - when we first got on
the phone together --
JOHN: I know.
STEVE: That's been a problem since day one.
JOHN: I know.
Q
__.
.:o- -
~--30
STEVE: And that's where the greatest
agreement had been broken right off.
JOHN: Hey, what can I tell you. -
I STEVE: And especially when these -- and of
course all you guys are aware, and I really believe
that you are in control, like when they do things like
run over the guard gate and run over the shed and, and
have total disregard of private property, like moving
those motorcycles out into the elements that they have
done --
JOHN: Do what?
STEVE: " -- today or last night.
JOHN: Do what?
STEVE: We had motorcycles parked in that
back garage there. They've moved them out and stuck
them in, in between this building, as you call the
compound, and that back garage where they're at with
the sandbags. They've got some of the --
JOHN: Well, I can't tell you I know anything
about that. I didn't even know you had motorcycles.
STEVE: Well, that's true. Yeah. And --
JOHN: Until you told me David had one.
STEVE: No, we've got a number of Honda
Magnas and Shadows --
JOHN: Oh, just to kind of buzz around out
there?
Q-._-<31
STEVE: Oh, yeah, no. There's been a couple
times we've taken trips together and have had a very
enjoyable time, but we've taken care of these-bikes and
they're there now out in the elements and -- I think --
they were not even --
JOHN: Well, let me tell you one of the big
problems.
STEVE: Okay. It wouldn't -- let me just
tell you --
JOHN: Go ahead. Go ahead. I didn't mean to
interrupt you.
STEVE: -- why it wouldn't surprise me, it
wouldn't surprise me that these same kids in these
vehicles would go run those things over as they had the
shack. The same total disregard.
JOHN: Nell, some of them aren't kids. And
some of them probably older than you are.
STEVE: Well, it, it -- that --
JOHN: You're not a kid, are you?
STEVE: I must admit, it hasn't been shown to
me that they are mature.
JOHN: Well, that, that may be more
appropriate, but what happened was --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: You've, you've got different -- I
don't know what you'd say, factions? Okay?
Q--:<
032
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: You got the faction that you're_
talking to right now, which we think we're the most
sane, rational ones --
STEVE: But of course.
JOHN: -- dealing here. And then you've got
other sides of the ledger. And when, when, when David
did not come out, that really put some people
ballistic, you know?
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: They, they said, hey, everything's
going to be worked out, everything's going to be
resolved, and they figured this entire thing is going
to be over and it wasn't. Right? .
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: And these things happen sometimes and
they're, they're beyond your control, they're beyond my
control.
STEVE: Well, I really and honestly do not
believe that they're aside from the command at that --
at -- where you're at, the command post. They're --
nobody in the military, being that they come up in a
regimen of having order above and over them always,
that they're not allowed to do anything without it
being given to them, just like, for instance --
JOHN: You read that, I would say, very
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STEVE:
instance,
JOHN:
STEVE:33
Well, being that as a -- as, for
with the guard shack thing. when we --
You think I'm doing something that --
I believe you might --
JOHN: -- isn't, isn't being condoned other
than I can have some pretty --
STEVE:
JOHN:
personal --
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
high -- what --
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
an Indian.
STEVE:
or at least some
and --
JOHN:
STEVE:
not going to be running over
cleared it with your command
beginning or their movements I don't see -- I don't know --
-- I can have some leeway as far as my
Right.
-- conversation with you.
I don't know what rank you are or
Well, we don't have ranks really.
Well, yeah, to a degree you do.
We've got chiefs and Indians and I'm
Let's say, let's say seniority then,
have greater influence than another
Sure, sure.
But I do realize that these men are
shacks unless they've
post there in the
and getting out of the
Q-: <34
vehicles, running around the property, getting into
some of our vehicles. I mean these guys, believe me, I
mean - they get itchy. And I think we showed the
greatest humanity when we it appears to I want to
tell you the truth.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: And if I ever get my day in court or
don't or whatever happens --
JOHN: Well, I'm sure you will.
STEVE: Well,
not and if it's twisted
whatever, I'll tell you
lot of --
JOHN: Nobody
witness stand now.
STEVE: Well,I hope so. But whether I do or
and turned, the words or
ahead of time in honesty that a
can force you to sit on a
let me tell you that a lot of
these people here believe that that agency came here
with actually the intention of murder. Seriously.
JOHN: Well, I can't comment on that.
STEVE: Let, let - John, I know you can't
and you would never dare go against --
JOHN: I -- and I, and I just don't --
STEVE: Wait, wait, let me - wait, let me
finish.
JOHN: believe it in my own mind.
STEVE: Let me, let me tell you now that, and
4--:<35
I know, you would never dare, even if you did have
small evidence --
JOHN: Yeah. '
. STEVE: -- ever go against another agency of
which is your employer, even though it's not the same
one. But when you see the way those choppers came and,
and right away peppered the bedroom where he lived,
where he stayed, David, where he stayed.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: The way they approached the front
door, with the weapons going off right away. No piece
of paper, no saying we have a warrant. David says they
were speaking at the same time they were firing. We
heard a report -- ~
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- in the pre -- by the press, we
heard a report, that there was an accidental shooting
by one of the BATE agents.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: That there was an - and then all of
a sudden the rest started firing. David did not. He
-- I was there in the, in the hallway. He stepped back
away from the door, miraculously he was not hit.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Because if you saw the door, how it
was riddled, I'm telling you the truth. I'm telling
4-: 4
2you the truth. And if these agents, the way36
they fired
against the building where the women and babies were,
I'm -- you know how - that they missed -- I'm tell --
I'll tell you the truth, about eight to nine
little kids were missed by within an inch of
this is all said and done, if, if you people
the building down or whatever you would plan
doing --
JOHN: Now?
STEVE: Huh?
JOHN: We just plan on waiting for
come out.of these
- when
don't burn
on
people to
STEVE: I really I'll tell you the truth.
I -- it wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise me that they
wouldn't want to get rid of the evidence. Because if
this building's left standing, you will see the
evidences of what took place.
JOHN: Well, you know something else we'll
see too, Da is, David - geez - the mind's going,
huh, Steve?
STEVE: But Da - I mean, John, I mean I know
it's been hard --
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN: -- a lot of weapons, aren'tIs, is we're going to see --
Whether you believe what I'm --
we?
STEVE: Well, let's -- it's possible.
Q
_I O
37
JOHN: Unless somebody wants to try and do
something about that, huh? _ _
STEVE: Exact -- and what could they do,
though.
JOHN: No. I'm talking about you people.
STEVE: Well, what could we do?
JOHN: Well, what do you think you could do?
STEVE: I'm -- yeah -- well, I'm talking
about in regards to hiding --
JOHN: We're talking about peaceful --
STEVE: Hiding -- no, we're talking about
hiding evidences --
JOHN: -- religious groups that would have
Law rockets and machine guns and, and that's hard to
fathom, isn't it?
STEVE: _It is.
JOHN: would I expect~to go into my, my
church where I live and, and -- or go into the priest's
rectory or something and, and see Law rockets and
machine guns and -- no, I wouldn't.
STEVE: Well, you're -- now, let's get --
let's think a little deeper and a little more vast
here, John.
JOHN: Let's go.
STEVE: Let's, let's look over at Ireland
over here. You're going to find out one day --
Q-: 4
038
JOHN: We're not having a religious war in
this country. . _
STEVE: Wait, now. You're going to learn one
day when you get into the very workings and the makings
of the second World War, for instance, you're going to
find the Catholic church so deeply involved behind the
scenes --
JOHN: Hey. I will never condone some of the
activities that were conducted in World War II. And,
and I, I'm not --
STEVE: I know you won't. And I was raised
with that as a background also, so --
JOHN: I, I will ask those questions as long
as I live that -- -
STEVE: You're like I am, in honesty, if -- I
am a Seventh Day Adventist and they kicked me out of
their church, but I was a loyal-Seventh Day Adventist
till the day they removed me.
JOHN: I, I have abso - I know there were a
lot of good deeds done by the church --
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: -- and then the church turned its back
on a lot of things.
STEVE: Exactly. It's the same --
JOHN: And I can't accept that and, and --
STEVE: Truly.
~
-_
£1
o39
JOHN: But I -- that doesn't mean I'm not a
good Catholic.
STEVE: Exactly. -
. JOHN: I'm not a practicing Catholic, but
what I'm saying is --
STEVE: But I'm saying --
JOHN: how many churches and religious
groups would have the armament and the weapons that are
there? And, and that's a questions that's got to be
asked. And what is the purpose in having them?
Waiting for Armageddon? No.
in STEVE:i Did you ask David that question?
What he's doing with all that?
JOHN: Well, not, not as specifically as
that.
STEVE: _I wished you would.
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: I really wished you would.
JOHN: You don't have to wake him up.
STEVE: I won't. I won't. But, you know,
you ask the question like tomorrow when you call --
JOHN: Well, I will --
STEVE: - or whatever and --
JOHN: You know, I will. And I'm sure he's
got an answer. I would hope he's got an answer, but
I'm not ask - believe me, I'm not asking the question
~
Q-I 40
in an adversarial manner that --
STEVE: No, no. I realize that again,
because -- number one, you don't want to offend or
break the lines --
JOHN: No, no I don't.
STEVE: - but you don't understand. We
wouldn't break the lines over being offended by words
in the first place. We seriously would not be.
There's some deep, deep great issues involved here, and
I know we haven't yet clicked on the same wavelengths,
even though we've attempted from one perspective, you
_~__..
from another --
JOHN: Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not giving up
on it, huh? _
STEVE: N0, you're not. And you know why?
JOHN: And I, and I don't think any of us
should.
STEVE: We haven't.
JOHN: Because the only way we can do is, is
communicate. Let me ask you something before I forget.
STEVE: Go ahead. All right.
JOHN: The mind gets a little fuzzy after a
number of hours and --
STEVE: Tell me.
JOHN: - do you, do you think that David's
going to let some youngsters come out in the morning?
Q-_:<41
STEVE: I don't know. I really -- in
honesty, I don't know.
JOHN: You don't?
, STEVE: I don't. It's -- like this morning I
had no idea or the day before. _
JOHN: Really? He didn't discuss it with you
beforehand? See that --
STEVE: N0. And --
JOHN: Well, do you think, do you think --
STEVE: -- the truth is I wanted to discuss
that with him last night, or if you want to call
tonight --
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: But, you know, by the time he got off
the phone, he was quite tired. So then I lost that
opportunity. But I did want to ask him some questions
in regards to that. .
JOHN: Well, I think, I think it'd be kind of
important, though, that if you talk to him about
Michael's wife --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- coming -- accompanying that body,
because I don't want anybody to get the impression that
we don't care. We do care.
STEVE: Well, you don't --
JOHN: And we believe that --
¢.-:<42
STEVE: It, it -- I'll tell you the truth.
It's an insult to my
it in that way.
JOHN: Why?
STEVE: To
to have someone come
reason I should say,
JOHN: For
should accompany theintegrity and also to his to put
use leverage like that to expect
out for that man - means, or
for the very - I mean --
me to, to, to ask that someone
body?
STEVE: Exactly. For sure.
JOHN: That's insulting you?
STEVE: I mean -- well, it - no, no. No,
no, no, no -- don't change -- let's not change the
what I'm saying. What I'm saying is -- -
JOHN: Well, I misunderstood what you're
saying then. Go ahead.
STEVE: Okay. I mean it's - remember now.
You're a negotiator. You're going to try to get every
last person out of here, which is your job.
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE: It
JOHN: And
STEVE:
appreciation --Safely.
Exactly.
That means you too.
does -- and I'm glad to hear that.
David and everyone.
I have the highest - greatest
Q-_> 4
v43
JOHN: I don't want to see anybody get hurt.
STEVE: Well, I'm glad to hear that. I
really am. But I mean, though, I mean -- I'm aware
that you're going to use whatever tactic or means or
whether, you know, playing on the heart or -- -
JOHN: I hope I'm playing on logic. That's
all.
STEVE: Well -- okay. But still, I mean,
this -- the point being that we expect to see some
respect for this, this person who was killed --
JOHN: Absolutely.
STEVE: -- not taking out in regards to if
anybody followed with it or not followed with the, the
per -- the body.
JOHN: Well, that's fine. But --
STEVE: _And --
JOHN: -- what I'm saying is here you've,
here you've got a woman --
STEVE: -- you know --
JOHN: -- that's lost a husband --
STEVE: I realize that.
JOHN: - and she's got some children out
here. I'm not trying to be --
STEVE: No, no. That's -- but, you know,
if --
JOHN: -- playing mind games.
an_, <44
STEVE: No, no, no, no. But if you come
right out and you say, well, you know, your children
are out here. Do you want to come out where your
children are? Well, you can, you know, you deal with
her on that level --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: -- or whatever else you, you chose
to. That's between you and her.
JOHN: Makes sense though, doesn't it?
STEVE: Yeah. It's between you and her, but
like with this body.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: One way or the other, as time goes
on, I don't want to see it decaying. I mean, if the
parents are here all the way from Australia, let them
identify the body- You know, here's the -- let them
take a, a look at him and see what they caused.
Because it was people like themselves and Mark that --
JOHN: Well, I wouldn't --
STEVE: No, you -- don't --
JOHN: You want me to put that onus on
somebody?
STEVE: No I don't. No, no, no, no. No I
don't.
JOHN: No.
STEVE: Now, you didn't hear me say that at
Q
__
z <45
all. I'm talking only forthrightly between yourself
and me.
JOHN: Yeah.
l STEVE: But, no, I would never do such a
thing to anybody. You know, that is their son and he
deserves a burial, of course, but --
JOHN: A Christian burial, sure.
STEVE: -- why, why did this all come about?
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: You know, but I'm telling you as a
person that I was there two years ago --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- and they've been adamant about
trying to create trouble for this man here that they,
that they followed and believed and, and shared time
with and so forth
JOHN: Well, they had nothing to do with
their son's demise though, you know? Directly.
STEVE: Well, it's a long story and, and one
day you'll get to hear all the details and you'll have
a little bit different perspective of it.
JOHN: Well, you know, that could be very
true. You know, it really could. But, but I, I hope
that you and David, you know, give Michael's wife some
encouragement.
STEVE: Well, definitely we will.
4--:<46
JOHN: And I'm, and I'm not saying that --
STEVE: John, in honesty, I, I have done this
from the beginning. I've always been a person that
even if I've opened up the Bible to someone or talked
politically or whatever else, I've always been a person
that encourages a person to back away from me, weigh it
out on your own. If there's a God, you know, pray to
your -- pray to God.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Ask for a spirit of discernment,
whether it's true or false or whatever else and make
your decision based upon logic. Go by --
JOHN: You know some -- a way that you could
do something like that, though? -
STEVE: Go by a way that -- okay. go ahead.
JOHN: A way that you could be strong doing
that is you lead her out there with that body and then
you go back inside.
STEVE: That I lead her --
JOHN: That may give her some support.
STEVE: That I lead her out --
JOHN: With Peter.
STEVE: And then what? Her go on with the
body? Is that what --
JOHN: Yeah. And you just go back inside and
you'd be very supportive of her, wouldn't you?
§47
STEVE: Well, I tell you truly that if she
chooses to do that, it would be not a problem on, on my
part to accompany her -- ~
, JOHN: I mean nobody's -- would try to trick
you or play any games with you, but it's probably going
to take two males to get that body someplace and,
and --
STEVE: Oh, easily, easily.
JOHN: You know, you know what I mean. That
you could be -- i
STEVE: In fact, I, I --
JOHN: '-- you could be one of the two and,
and give her some support that way.
STEVE: I talked to one of these guys and
they told me that they thought it might even take four,
because it, you know, when, when a body - I don't
know -- %
JOHN: Well, I don't know what means you have
of carrying it.
STEVE: Well, so far I don't either to be
honest with you unless we use that same --
JOHN: Stretcher?
STEVE: Yeah. You gave us that stretcher. I
don't --
JOHN: Believe me, if it got to the point
that you needed a stretcher, we could get a stretcher
an, <delivered out there.
STEVE: Okay. That's wh
JOHN: You know, and, an
possibility.at I wondered-
d that's certainly
STEVE: Well, maybe tomorrow morning -- I
hope you don't call too early in t
pretty tired this morning and --
JOHN: Oh, I won't call
STEVE: Well, hopefully
JOHN: No. No. No, we
I've had a good chat with you and
. __ ._ _~
STEVE: Well, look, I to
her and even give you --
JOHN: Be strong with he
STEVE: I'll, I'll give
opportunity even to talk with her
JOHN: Good, good. And
talk to you, either you or David i
because I know you probably didn't
write down all the names of those
you about.
STEVE: -- we didn't, be
already so late and --
JOHN: But what I would
least say hello to the loved one i
hello to the person on the outsidehe morning. I was
before 5:00.
I won't hear it.
won't, but I, I --
ld you. I'll talk
r, okay?
her -- you the
if you'd like and --
what I want to do
n the morning,
get a chance to
people I talked to
cause you know it
like to do is at
nside so I could say
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STEVE: Umhum.
JOHN: You know, and I don't think that's
asking a whole lot. '
' STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: It'll, it'll give these people out
here a little reassurance that their loved ones doing
all right.
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: And I'm not going to ask them any, any
sneak questions or anything. I'll just identify
myself. You can tell them who they're going to talk to. _ y ._ M
and just say, yes, they're fine. Everything's good.
STEVE: John, what - so what happened with
Dick then? Was there an arrangement then that you
decided it'd be better if you tried or what?
JOHN:. Tried what?
STEVE: Speaking with us and maybe in place
of him.
JOHN: I sent him home to bed.
STEVE: Oh, you did?
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN: He needs his rest. Aren't you going
to get some rest in a few minutes?
STEVE: Well, well, it's up to you.
Laughter.!
Q-: <
_right f
working
they're
it was
course,
hours.
through
where I
thought
I mean,
with --
life.
sides,
me sick
laying50
JOHN: I'm easy.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: I'm easy, really.
STEVE: Okay. Cause you can tell, like
rom Sunday night, though, I mean I - even like
with Jim. These guys ~-
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: - they're telling me, you know,
taking a break between themselves there. First
Jim, then there was Gary. Then there was, of
Henry, and Dick, of course, but I was going 24
These guys ekpected to speak to me right on
and not give up the phone. I mean, this is
was a little perturbed with Gary because I had
he, he was becoming a little bit unreasonable.
I needed f- after such a traumatic experience
I've never been in anything like that in my
And to see people die and all the rest on both
I mean, I didn't know the young --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- that young ATF officer. It made
, totally sick. I've never seen a dead body
around like that.
JOHN: Well, let me ask you something.
STEVE: Yeah, go ahead.
JOHN: Point, point blank. We, we understand
._¢_ __
051
there may be other people that are in the same
condition as Pete.
STEVE: Well,
you go on with that?
JOHN: Oh, go
STEVE: I was
me and I think the restcould I say something before
ahead, go ahead.
very -- you know, it, it hurt
that we're viewing the, the
news conference that was given this afternoon when it
was asked if David or myself or anyone showed any kind
of remorse about these men, these officers, that were
- the agents, I should say, that had lost their lives
and their families. I said over and over again to Jim,
to these men, from Sunday right on through
JOHN: I'm sure you did. .
STEVE: - we were sick. Not only -- I'm
mean I'm disgusted. I feel sorry for the families - I
have -- I mean, the greatest sympathy and remorse, I
do. I'd never - I mean, I can picture myself being in
that family, that being my brother, that being my
father, that being my son, whatever. Of course we do.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I mean David, I mean, I mean --
you'll see tears come to his eyes over the loss of a
life like that. It was unneed it was unnecessary,
totally unnecessary. So, of course, I mean -- there's
nothing in this world I wouldn't do, financially,
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monetarily, whatever. I mean, encouragement, to try to
reach out and to try to help someone. You know, I've
encouraged them or whatever else one could do with or
for them. And I mean I'd give anything if that could
be brought about over the -- over the airways.
JOHN: Hey, we just can't turn it around,
though, can we?
STEVE: No. And, and I hope that nothing
like that ever happens again.
53
1 want, you know, but we --
2 STEVE: Yeah .
3 JOHN: - we have heard that there 7- I mean,
- 4 there's absolutely no question because somebody told us
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5 they saw a fellow fall.
51' 6 STEVE: Right.
7 JOHN: Off the top of that water tower.
8 STEVE: Oh, really?
9 JOHN: Well, is it a water tower, a silo,
10 whatever, you know. i
11 STEVE: It's a water tower.
12 JOHN: Big,~tall tower?
13 STEVE: I, I believe it's a water tower,
14 yeah.
15 JOHN: Brownishcolored tower?
16 STEVE: Exactly. Rusty.
17 JOHN: Well, somebody up on the top of that
18 thing fell off of it. Well, it's going to be kind of
19 tough to walk away from that, huh?
20 STEVE: Well, this is -- in fact, this was
21 Peter Gent.
22 JOHN: Oh, that's who it was?
"23 STEVE: Right.
>_ 24 JOHN: Oh, okay. Okay.
_ 2§ STEVE: In fact, we did not know where he
was, but he - they -- he didn't fall -- mind you, he
-: <54
didn't fall off the outside. It was -- he fell in from
the within.
JOHN: Oh.
STEVE: They were -- inside.
JOHN: Oh, is that right?
STEVE: Uh-huh.
JOHN: Still got to be quite a fall, huh?
STEVE: Well -- oh, yeah. I believe so
anyway. I hope I have it right. I'm not even certain,
because I didn't - I have not seen him or anything,
but this is what I gathered. This is what I've
understood.
JOHN: Well, if there are others, we feel the
same way about those as we feel about Peter. you know?
STEVE: Umhum.
JOHN: A Christian burial.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: We'd like to do it right. I'm sure
you want to do it right.
STEVE: You
There's no comparison
was quite a shock too
looked out the windowcan imagine, too, I mean.
with human life to dogs, but it
when a lot of these children
and saw that these puppies that
had been raised and so much care had gone into these
Malamutes, how --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
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STEVE: -- these agents had, from the very
moment that they parked in front of the building and
cameout, they shot these dogs right off.
JOHN: How come nobody buried the dogs the
other night? They said they wanted to go outside and
shovel some -- bury the dogs.
STEVE: Well, they - it was in question,
apparently. It was in question whether, you know, the
time
man,
that
from the puppies
a@
they
were
theyto be taken to do the digging and --
JOHN: Doesn't take too long, huh?
STEVE: - if - huh?
JOHN: What~
STEVE: They were willing to do it like the
Greg, who was one of -- he was one of the guys
had spent an awful lot of time with those dogs,
on, and --
JOHN: Well, you'd think he'd have wanted
STEVE: Well, I mean, you're --
JOHN: -- little burial, huh?
STEVE: -- avoiding what, you know, where
-- where I was placing the emphasis and that's --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- what was the need. They, they
already penned up and, and fenced in an area where
couldn't get out. So I didn't -- I really didn't
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understand the need for shooting them all either
before --
JOHN: Well, did you see the puppies on TV?
STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: Did you see the puppies on TV? ,
STEVE: I, I can tell you're avoiding me or
you're changing the subject, but what was --
JOHN: No. You were just talking about the,
just talking about the dogs.
STEVE: No, I'm talking about the mal - I'm
talking about the malamutes, though, the full -- they
were actually raised from a puppy here. They were
fairly full - all of them were about full-grown.
There was, let's see, five of them total. V
JOHN: They were, they were killed right
away?
STEVE: Yes, they were.
JOHN: Oh, really.
STEVE: They were all shot and --
JOHN: They were like the parents of the
puppies, then, huh?
STEVE: Well, no. The, the female that we
had, who -- she had four -- we bought four pups with
the mother.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And we had those five. Then she --
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JOHN: Oh.
STEVE: -- she had just a litter of 11, and
those are the puppies you speak of. But these others
were all full-grown Malamutes.
JOHN: Oh, I had heard that a -- I just
thought that two puppies had been killed.
STEVE: No. They all had been shot, from
what I understand anyway. I mean, I don't see any
around.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: You know, it is interesting. I've
only seen two carcasses laying out there, two bodies.
JOHN: How come somebody doesn't go out and
bury them?
STEVE: Well, I guess we'll have to clear
that with you again tomorrow maybe.
JOHN:H well, you can clear it with us right
now. If you - if -- I don't mean for you to go out
and do it right now, but if you want to go out in the,
in the daylight hours and take --
STEVE: Take a shovel.
JOHN: -- a shovel out there, all you got to
do is tell us before you go on out and --
STEVE: Exactly.
JOHN: -- let us know that --
STEVE: Well, we may, we may be doing that.
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JOHN: If that's what you're doing --
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25 End of Tape #64!
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25_U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO 8 FIREARMS
TAPE #65
3/6/93
1:50 A.M. - s=47 A.M.
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2'5JOHN: -- David's choice
STEVE: Okay. Then you,
to them and you let me communicate
' JOHN: Well, if you want
STEVE: And I'll tell --to make.
you give me a line
to them. '
to come out --
JOHN: -- you can communicate to them.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: You, you know where --
STEVE: We'll leave it at that --
JOHN: - you know where
this, don't you?we're going with
STEVE: John, we're going to leave it in
God's hands. And the God you serve is apparently a
different one than I serve.
JOHN: I don't think so.
There's only one..I don't think so.
STEVE: That's what we both say.
JOHN: That's what I mean.
STEVE: My god is the God of the book called
the Bible.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: That God is a very vengeful God. I'm
not. I'm not. But that God
truth for the whole world to
the last days, to open their ears,
cannot give an evaluation oris. When God's got a
shut their mouths about in
because one not --
a judgment, a validated
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judgment, over something till they've heard the
information through. So God finally after 6,000 years
of human history wants everybody to have a -- be part
of a hearing, including yourself.
JOHN: Yeah. But we're not -- we're talking
about a caring God too, aren't we?
STEVE: Yes, we are. This is why he's given
you the opportunity ahead of time to hear all things.
Wisdom is a man that does a lot of listening. This is
why you and I both have two ears and only one mouth.
But most people, of course, they've -- their -- they've
got certain designs on this world and they've got
certain designs on what they want out of this place,
and that's the placing eternal salvation secondarily
way it'll end up coming out for them.
JOHN: It could be very true. It could be
very true what you're saying, but you know, only time
will tell, won't it?
STEVE: Exactly. This is true.
JOHN: The --
STEVE: This is true. But, you know, it
never --
JOHN: -- the, the bottom line is Peter is in
your hands right now.
STEVE: Okay. Listen --
JOHN: And I don't mean that he is in your
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2.54
hands. Peter is on your property, your real estate.
STEVE: I'll tell you the kind of -- I'll
tell the - some of the things we may do and you can
take it any way you want to --
I JOHN: Go ahead.
STEVE: -- and it's not meant to offend
you --
JOHN: Go ahead.
STEVE: -- or -- you can do what you need to
do.
JOHN: Go ahead.
- STEVE: »It's-not -- we have no fear of taking
that body right out in front of you and burying it
without asking you in the night, in the daytime. I
want to let you know that ahead of time. These guys
are a bad frame of mind. I want you to know that very
clearly. I do. .
JOHN: Hey. If you want to take --
STEVE: So and if you guys --
JOHN: -- Peter's body and bury it there,
bury it.
STEVE: Listen, listen -- if you ever wanted
-- if you ever wanted to use snipers or whatever else,
you know, you go ahead and you do what you feel you've
got to do.
JOHN: Keep in mind, you're dealing with this
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agency and we don't operate that way.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: We're trying to operate as safely --
STEVE: Well, then what's all this --
JOHN: -- not callously.
STEVE: What's, what's all the sandbags?
What's all the -- guys --
JOHN: Well, let me, let me tell you exactly
and clearly why - I've already gone over it before --
STEVE: Okay. Let's leave that be, then.
JOHN: You know --
STEVE: "Let"s -- I'm still, I'm still back
with this body and - V
JOHN: well, just think the Law rockets and
machine guns and that's why you'll understand sandbags.
STEVE: Listen. I'm still talking about this
body though - h
JOHN: Go ahead, go ahead.
STEVE: -- and that belongs to the parents.
JOHN: well, right now it's on your real
estate, right?
STEVE: That's correct. As was the children
that you so wanted --
JOHN: Sure. Somebody's got to look after
them.
STEVE: And what about this young man who
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25JOHN: Listen. David, I don't want to, I
don't want to end this --
because I
very
do.
way.
nine
I'll
6:30STEVE: Steve. .
JOHN: -- on a sour note or anything else,
think we've had a very good dialogue and a
good discourse between the two of us.
STEVE: Well, okay. I'll tell you what we'l
JOHN: And I want it, I want it to stay that
STEVE: I'll tell you what we'll do. Eight,
in the morning, if you don't call me around then,
call you back. And it --
JOHN: And I'll -- I'm going to call David a
STEVE: I feel like unplugging the phone.
JOHN: Huh?
STEVE: I need to get some rest.
JOHN: Well, just --
STEVE: Are you going to get any rest?
JOHN: - sneak away from the phone.
STEVE: Are you going to get any rest
tonight?
JOHN: No. But I'll get rest tomorrow.
STEVE: 6:30. Can't you get - give him
another hour or two - be gentle with us. Give us
if ,____
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=5.8
another hour or two so we can -- I mean --
JOHN: Well, he's been sleeping for hours.
STEVE: In and out. In and out, because
while I've been talking to you I'm over I'm nearby
him right now.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: And he's --
JOHN: Well, just leave the phone next to him
and crawl away and let him get some sleep and then
he'll answer the phone when it comes up.
STEVE: Well, do --
JOHN: Because he was supposed to talk to me
and he fell asleep.
STEVE: I'm sure. You got to remember, he's
taken a pretty bad wound.
JOHN: I know, I know.
STEVE: Vou know, it was a wound that I would
have expected for anyone else would have been fatal.
JOHN: I know.
STEVE: He, himself --
JOHN: But he asked me to call him back. I
called him back when I got the, got the information to
call him back on and what's he doing?
STEVE: And what information was that?
JOHN: About the people that were making the
inquiries. Right? That had, that had the individuals
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inside. »
STEVE: Oh, yeah. I see. Okay.
JOHN: You know. The people that had called
us --
STEVE: Oh, he had asked you to find out
that.
JOHN: -- and spoken to us.
STEVE: I didn't know that.
JOHN: And he particularly asked, you know,
he brought up the name because I certainly didn't have
the name about, what is it? Ieshas phonetic sp.!?
STEVE: 'Oh,~yeah.
JOHN: Ieshas parents.
STEVE: -- they're --
JOHN: Yes. Oliver and Elizabeth, who had
come here --
STEVE: Her name is now Summers, of course.
JOHN: I -- her last name is?
STEVE: Summers.
JOHN: Oh. Well, I didn't know that. And I,
and apparently he didn't either because all he had was
a first name.
STEVE: Oh, I see.
JOHN: And he just said he knew that she was
the -- that Oliver and Elizabeth were her parents.
STEVE: Right.
10
JOHN: And he asked me to check on it. Well,
I, I check on it and I get this other information. I
call back and David's in never, never land. -
STEVE: Okay. Okay. Well, I'll tell you
what.
JOHN: Get some sleep.
STEVE: That's it.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: And no - the sour note --
JOHN: No, no, no, no, no.
STEVE: There's a sour - no, no, no. We
won't -- we listen. You'll never - I mean, I am
not a person that holds anything against anyone in the
first place. If there's a problem where one's_voice
was ever raised to a small degree, it's not a big deal.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: The only thing is, of course, it's a
little bit annoying to a person when it comes to
something -- to me it's a serious thing to leave this
body lay out and decay. I don't see anything funny
about it.
JOHN: Well, it's been there since Sunday.
STEVE: Well, yeah, it has been, but still I
don't -- it still makes a difference. Every day that
goes by -- health hazard --
JOHN: Sure .
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STEVE: More than that, though, I mean the
body, from what I understand, is fairly much intact. I
don't know if it's because of the cold weather or
whatever.
I JOHN: Well, it's probably the, the location
where it is has something to do with it, but --
STEVE: Possibly. You, you'd know more about
it than I
JOHN: But we understand that there may be
others and if there are, and if there are --
STEVE: I'll discuss that with you
tomorrow. ~
JOHN: - maybe we can handle -- do that.
STEVE: Positively.
JOHN: Get some sleep, David.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: There -- Steve.
STEVE: Okay. I'll talk to you in the
morning then.
JOHN: All right.
STEVE: Okay. We'll see you, John.
JOHN: Good night.
STEVE: Okay. Good night.
* t & 1' *
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER fl: I know it.
Ira's coming on strong --
Q
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_--:<12
Telephone being dialed.!
STEVE: Hello. _ _
DICK: Steve. I hear that noise in the
background.
STEVE: Someone stepped on a car. Just a
minute. Hello.
DICK: There you go. What do you have, what
do you have out there that makes that kind of noise
when these things are picked up?
STEVE: I don't it's the weirdest thing.
It must be - there's like a second plug where I think
it was for like - I don't even know what's it's on --
DICK: That's all right. It's gone now. How
you doing out there? .
STEVE: Not, not too bad. On the tired side,
of course. _
DICK: You're a little tired?
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: Well, we let you sleep in this
morning. We've give you a few extra minutes of sleep.
STEVE: What time is it?
DICK: Everybody up and around? It's about
8:00. A few minutes till eight.
STEVE: Oh, it is. Oh, okay.
DICK: It's time for you guys to get up and
get around anyway. You don't want to sleep in. This
/Q
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is Saturday. You can't sleep in on Saturday.
STEVE: Well, I would agree, but I'm talking
through the night, half the night. -
, DICK: Did you?
STEVE: Oh, yeah.
DICK: Yeah? well, it's a new day. Let's
resolve that we're going to try to get some of these,
some of these things clarified. I know last night that
there was a conversation between John, I believe, and
either you or David concerning some, some procedural
matters that certainly we can address today and that
sort of thing. W
Listen, I wanted to know. Did you guys get
an opportunity to talk to Kathy Schroeder last_night to
advise her of the --
STEVE: K0. See, I was the last one talking
with John for quite some time and --
DICK: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- in the process it was so late and
-- in fact, we had the lights out. I - it's pretty
hard to go, wander around --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- look around and --
DICK: Sure. Well, don't you think that
might be a good idea to do that?
STEVE: Yeah. would you like to call back
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after a while or --
DICK: Well, maybe, maybe I can talk to her
and, and, and -- _
STEVE: I mean, yeah --
DICK: brief her on the thing, because --
STEVE: Well, that's what I was talking about
is getting HER and --
DICK: Oh. You're going to go get her now
and bring her back?
STEVE: Yeah --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Is that what you were request --
DICK: Well, well, I - it would not be a bad
idea so that we can, you know, prepare her, because
they are going to make some sort of an announcement,
because they - the media are always, you know, trying
to identify the, the unfortunate person that was, was
killed and we want to ensure that it doesn't blindside
her and try to prepare her a little bit before it.
STEVE: Should - is that okay. Can I just
cause there's no one around and --
DICK: Okay. Yeah.
STEVE: I'll put the phone down and call you
right back in what, about five minutes?
DICK: That's great.
STEVE: Okay.
-
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DICK: All righty.
STEVE: This is Dick?
DICK: Yeah, it is. _
STEVE: Okay. I'll talk to you then.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Bye.
* a * e *
Telephone being dialed.!
STEVE: Hello.
DICK: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: Dick again.
STEVE: Yeah. I went, I went and got her and
talked to her and she's so broke up now and emotional.
I don't know if she can come to the phone just at the
moment.
DICK: Okay. Well, that's, that's fine. I
was --
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: I, I thought if you hadn't advised
her, that I would go ahead.
STEVE: Right.
DICK: But as, as long as you've done that,
you're right. Certainly she's got some emotional --
some emotions she's going to have to handle --
srzvs: Right.
Q
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DICK: - and I'm sure that there's somebody
there that's close to her that might be able to give
her the comfort that, that she needs. -
I STEVE: Yeah. They're talking to her.
DICK: Yeah. If you would, please pass on my
concerns to her, too, at the appropriate time. All of
our concerns. No all of us are - regret this whole
thing. And while she doesn't know me, we do regret it
and I, I --
STEVE: I do - you know, yesterday the --
Rick with the FBI -- one of the reporters asked him
what, if anything, was the response of David or myself,
some of the rest of us in the compound in regards to
the, the four men, the agents that lost their lives and
he didn't give any kind of response to that, but the
truth is, as we told Jim, many times from Sunday on
through, the -- I mean, totally regrettable and they
have our sympathy, the families. We know what they're
going through, being in their shoes. No one ever would
have chosen to have such a thing happen to anybody like
that.
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE: Especially such young guys and
probably fathers, brothers, or sons. What fathers, I
mean, that's the last thing. Never had a choice to do
such a thing. So I mean they have to if - words
1-__-<
017
aren't even enough to --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: - express the condolences and
sympathy --
DICK: And that's why we have to make sure
that it never happens again.
STEVE: Well, of course.
DICK: And, and we know that you're sincere.
STEVE: -- positively.
DICK: And, and I hope that - and I hope you
know that we are. It's, it's terribly unfortunate and
we've got to go forward from here and ensure that it
doesn't happen again.
STEVE: But the next time if a question like
that is asked I hope, I hope that that's passed on. We
are not monsters. We are - on the contrary.
DICK: Well, we know that. We know that.
STEVE: But if the press asks, let them know
though.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Unless you choose --
DICK: We'll pass, we'll pass that on that,
that you sincerely regret the whole, the whole matter.
How's, how's David's health in there? Is it --
STEVE: -- comes to the families, they asked
what our response was to the list of the survivors.
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DICK: Okay.
STEVE: Well, of course, it's with the_
deepest sympathy and regret -- '
I DICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- and we give our sorrow and --
how's David? Well, he's, he's still, you know --
DICK: I mean, did you guys get a chance to
use those sutures?
STEVE: I -- in honesty --
DICK: You don't know?
STEVE: -- I've been away most of the evening
_ ._ _._.
and when I came back he was -- he had fallen to sleep
and I -- when John called, I spoke with John for some
time. _
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: I think it must have been about
midnight on.
DICK: All right. You don't -- yesterday you
brought up some procedural matters, when you come out
what would be done? Are you clear in your own mind
what --
STEVE: No, I'm not.
DICK: Okay. Let, let me go through this
with you.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: And, and I'll bring you up to date a
Q-__,.
-l9
little bit on that in terms of what happens in a
Federal, in a Federal matter.
STEVE: Okay. -
, DICK: All right. In this instance, we're
going to make, we're going to make some special efforts
to ensure that this is handled even -- probably a
little differently than it, than it is handled normally
to ensure, you know, that you're you have the
opportunity to speak with people and to make your side
known, but also so that you can feel comfortable with
the accommodations I mean, to -- up to a degree,
obviously, in terms of what might be done.
STEVE: Um-hum.
DICK: This is, this is what's done._ Once
you come out of that, that compound, the buses there
have been buses that will be arranged and we'll, we'll
bring you down here to the, to the airport complex.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: A hearing will be scheduled by a
magistrate here at the airport.
STEVE: Umhum.
DICK: At that time, there's an identity --
you'll be asked to -- and to determine your identity,
to, to provide information in terms of identity. A
magistrate, then, will de -- will determine the issue
of bond or bail. It's not an FBI or ATF responsibility
Q
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to do that. It's, it's done by a magistrate, depending
on the nature of the charge. And I, I'm telling you
with the number of people in there, I, I hope one of
the concerns is not that everybody's going to be
charged and locked up and havethe key thrown away,
because it's just absolutely not true.
I know -- it's been my experience, having
been a law enforcement officer
now, that people are concerned
them to confront those issues,
scared. Especially if they've
situation before. But in this
it's, it's not something to be
more of a procedural matter.
STEVE: Um-hum.for a good long time
and it's difficult for
because they're, they're
never been in that
instance, it's just --
fearful of. It's, it's
DICK: And I, I think that the folks inside
need to know that. Steve, this, this is not a matter
that's going to go away. It's not one of these things
with the today, tomorrow, or the next day that the
Government's going to fold their tent and leave. So I
think you have to, you have to
issues --address these kinds of
STEVE: Well, I do realize that. This is
why, you know, I was talking to you about that.
DICK: Well, I, I think -- you need to
know --
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STEVE: You wanted some ongoing, of course,
progression and, and, and things being resolved, so
we're on this side also trying to, you know, gain the
information, helping people decide, make choices, of
course, as they do daily. And so, you know, if there's
anything else you have or you might want to --
DICK: Well, we just want to make sure,
again. It's been my, it's been my experience that
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Schroeder then?
STEVE: Yes.
DICK: Certainly. I'll be happy to talk to
that per - are you talking, are you talking about
Kathy?
STEVE: Right.
DICK: Well, I'll be happy to talk to Kathy.
Put, put her on the --
STEVE: when she - no, when she can.
DICK: Okay. I thought you meant someone was
there asking you and asking you to, to tell me those
things. So Kathy has~questions about why it happened
is what you're saying?
STEVE: Well, of course. I mean, that's
where it came from. It was passed to me by someone
else.
DICK: I will be happy to talk directly to
Kathy.
STEVE: I know. I told her.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: - you know.
DICK: Sure. well, listen.
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: Steve, you and I both know this is a
regrettable incident. The ATP, and one of the
questions apparently that David asked last night is why
--
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he was not arrested on the road while he was jogging or
why he went to town --
STEVE: Well, that's it. He did want to know
that, because I went with him to town a number of
times --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- very recently. We went to a
number of different places.
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: He went with a few other people.
He's gone other places on his own very close by.
DICK: But Dave -- Steve, there's a simple
answer for that. We had no -- we, meaning the
Government, ATF in this instance, had no arrest warrant
for David.
STEVE: Well, what, what happened Sunday
though? i
DICK: That's a search warrant for the
premises. Okay?
STEVE: But they are -- they have already
said on TV and in the news -- I've heard them say also
-- I believe it came from Jim, that they did have a
warrant for his arrest also.
DICK: That's true, but I mean in addition to
the search warrant --
STEVE: Okay.
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DICK: -- but, but you can't arrest him
outside and then expect to execute the search warrant
there. What, what do you - '_ '
STEVE: That doesn't make sense. Of course
you could.
DICK: Well, what I'm saying. If you were
arrested outside, they would still have to -- had to go
to the house to execute the search warrant.
STEVE: Really, but it would have been a lot
safer for everybody involved wouldn't have it?
DICK: Well, hindsight, perhaps it would have
been.
STEVE: Hindsight?
DICK: Perhaps it would have been.
STEVE: How many people, how many people have
dealt with David through the years, the weeks, the
months? Has seen his demeanor, how he is with people.
Do you know that if you ever sat down with him and you
had a sincere desire to know what that Bible is about,
he would sit with you --
DICK: For hours!
STEVE: Five hours, ten --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- a day, two days.
DICK: Okay. Let me put it
STEVE: Time -- let me just say something.
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Time is short. His whole life, you'll be able to see
it in him, is devoted to allowing people to have an
opportunity to live forever. That's what he's all
about.
DICK: And I understand that and I can, and I
can appreciate that.
STEVE: I've never met another person that is
-- that makes money off of religion, makes money off of
God, whatever he is, a priest, a minister. This man
does not do that. And he's concerned about the world
whole, whole wide --
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- because the guy knows the book
backwards and forwards. He knows what God is going todo. i
DICK: There's no one going to question that,
but you have to understand. The Government collects
information in terms of law -- breaking of laws, okay?
STEVE: This, this sounds so - doesn't it,
Dick, sound to you more though that it was the ATF's
whole - well, not only choice as to what took place,
how they went about it, but they ended up -- even
though they had signs that showed -- and they should
have known clearly from Robert -- I mean, I'm amazed
that they went on with what they did after what David
said to Robert.
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DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: Especially with all the women and
children everywhere. That's why, when they came to the
door already I'm packing and David, David should have
been dead standing at the door. There's something I
wanted to tell you people, but I guess -- I'm not, I'm
not going to say anything just yet, but and having the
opportunity to speak, you will find out for a fact what
happened.
DICK: Well, that's exactly --
STEVE: Not may, not maybe.
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE: And then - and if there's to be any
charges, there's going to, there's going to have to be
somebody charged on that side, because I'm telling you.
From what it all appears, from all the testimony and
all that was seen and observed here, and if there
really was TV coverage or any kind of video tape
coverage, it'll fit totally and perfectly with what was
seen and the testimony given here.
DICK: That's fine. And that's all we've
asked you repeatedly over these last six, seven days
here is that we want you to make that known. We want
to understand what happened from inside. I was not
here. I'm not in the position to say what happened.
You are. ATF is. ATF, I guarantee you, will be able
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to tell their side of it, just as you need to tell
yours.
STEVE: I can -- Dick, I can understand, I
can understand why Americans would be totally terrified
of what happened. To think that could happen to
anybody in this country; I mean, it's one thing to
have, you know, an agent or two or three --
DICK: Umhum.
STEVE: - a sheriff or somebody from the
department that -- David's used to -- he, he's loves a
thorn. He has given the time to any one of those guys.
He's never threatened~any of them. On the contrary,
he's been so cordial and open to these guys. They
could have come to that door and knocked at it, come in
with a warrant in their hand. He would have gone with
them. He'd have invited them in, sat down -- I
he's always been that way. You can look at hismean,
- talk
to the people who have known him from all over, out in
California, here, wherever. He's always offering
people something. He's always giving. He's always
giving people money, food, whatever opportunity --
DICK: Steve, I - my understanding is that
that is correct. But, how do we go on from Sunday?
STEVE: No, we still are going on, but, you
know, and, and saying this to see what your response is
to that, maybe it'll help those that are, are listening
~
Q-: <28
here or somewhere.
DICK: Well, I'll be happy, I'll be happy to
-- I, I would be the first one to suggest, I hope, that
that was terribly unfortunate, that it will never
happen again. You know, we grieve for, for the, the
ATF agents that were shot. Their brothers, law
enforcement, and for the people inside too. I mean, no
one wanted to see this happen. Absolutely no one.
Including the people inside, the people outside.
However, how do we move to get -- making sure that this
does not happen again. The way we do it, the way we do
it, Steve ; ll *
STEVE: Okay.
DICK:_ - is to ensure that all parties that
were involved in this are talked to, they're
interviewed, and that all the information is collected
and is, is used in a, in a useful way. That is --
STEVE: No, I understand that.
DICK: But, but, but I know. You and I both
understand that. David understands it, but how do we
go about doing it?
STEVE: Dick, can I ask you a question?
DICK: Surely.
STEVE: were the FBI notified right away when
they came to the door before? were they not involved
at that point?
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of the information, I'm sure, was in error. It's much
like now. You cannot believe the input we're getting
from former members inside, from people that think they
know what you're about, and those kinds of things.
That's what life is. I mean --
STEVE: Oh, no. I, I understand and one would
expect that, of course.
DICK: Sure. And part of it's going to be
probably accurate, some of it's going to be partially
accurate, and other parts --
STEVE: Surely.
DICK: -- are going to be totally inaccurate.
You can only sort out the best you can the information
that you receive and, and that's what, what ATE was
supposed to have done and made every effort to do it.
But, you know, there's nothing certain in life and
while we all try to do the best job we can, some
mistakes are made at some point in time and
unfortunately --
STEVE: Oh, I mean, but something so big as
that --
DICK: Absolutely. This was a horrible -- as
horrendous as anything I've ever seen in, in the years
that I've been in law enforcement. And it's -- you
know, Jim is, is an ATF agent that was here and you
think that he feels any less worse than you do?
_
__
Q--3.
v31
STEVE: Well, you know that's not so, but of
course there's that mentality and it does make a person
stop and wonder, but who's watching the watchdog, about
big brother? If that is not in the one of the worst
examples that I've ever seen or heard about --
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE: -- and that there's -- there are
people, you know, and there are small, little
newspapers and large papers and there are concerned,
very intelligent people across America that have been
watching this Government grow. I'm not talking about
the people, I'm talking about when this country was
founded, the militia was the people.
And nowadays what do we have? We've got a
standing army controlled by the Government, not by the
people. And when these guys are sent off to war or
whatever, it's not by the people again. It's about
people that are in office. Your agencies, like the FBI
and like INS, IRS, we people don't even have direct
access to when it comes to voting. You know that. I
mean, they've become so powerful, who do they answer
to? Can you tell me that? Who do they answer to?
DICK: I'm not -- Steve, I don't disagree
with you at all. I think we all see Government
excesses. Absolutely true.
STEVE: I mean, though, but --
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DICK: Absolutely true.
STEVE: -- but these agencies really are on
the outside of the Constitution. There -- and there's
no way we -- they can be controlled by the people.
This is to be a country for and by and all the rest of
the people --
DICK: Sure. Absolutely.
STEVE: -- but it's not, it's not that way
anymore. What, what's this Federal Reserve System.
Nothing to do with the Federal anything. Private
bankers coining our money, even though in the
Constitution, even though the statements made by
Lincoln, Jefferson, all of these guys, Jackson, all
these past presidents. The warnings they gave. This
Mayer Amschel Rothschild that made a statement 200 and
some years ago in, in Europe, allow me to coin a
nation's money and I don't care who runs it, I don't
care who's president. Quite a strong statement. Who's
coining our money, Dick?
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: Do you, do you know who is? Do you
know anything about the Federal Reserve System?
DICK: I -- those things you just
mentioned --
STEVE: Why, why they take the -- what?
DICK: -- are true. Those things you just
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mentioned are absolutely true.
STEVE: Why did they take the gold backing
away from the American money? They used to be called
Silver Certificates --
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- and all the rest. Now they're
Federal Reserve Notes. A note is for something of
valuable.
DICK: Steve.
STEVE: Take the piece of paper and you're to
get something in return. What do you get? Another
piece of paper these days. They don't even have an
answer for that.
DICK: I Steve, I, I understand your
concern and I share many of those concerns, as do other
STEVE: Why aren't you speaking out for your
country then, for the freedoms that you -- do you hold
these freedoms dear yourself?
DICK: I, I do. I do. And I'm doing -- what
I do for a living I hope it contributes to, in some
small way, to those same issues. Not specifically
about the bank.
STEVE: What is the - agency you all answer
to, because I'm curious. I'd like to know some of
these things.
~
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25DICK: Well --34
STEVE: And, and those people that work for
it, what do they think?
DICK: Well, listen. Many of us are
dissatisfied with, with many aspects of our particular
jobs. Whether we're employed by the Government,
without - outside the Government, by major
corporations, by,
road. I, I would guess all of us
to those kinds of things, but you
are ever put in a position during
can, that we have a forum to make
to others. You have that forum.you know, by the farmer down the
have some opposition
know, very few of us
our lifetime that we
those thoughts known
You have that
opportunity and you have that responsibility now.
STEVE: What are you saying that I have that
DICK: You have the ability to do that.
STEVE: You know as well as I the moment I
walk out that's all it. There's no more voice -- not
DOW .
DICK: That's it. That's, that's your,
that's your, that's your belief? That you have no
voice when you leave that compound? Is that what
you're saying?
STEVE: I have watched every -- whatever
happened. I never heard - I would like to have heard
this Weaver, what happened to him and his voice. I'd
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like to have really heard both - I mean, I would
listen to both sides of it. I'd definitely like to
hear that man speak for himself. _
DICK: He will be speaking for himself.
STEVE: America - well, who's - who's heard
about that guy? If that was if there was a
newsworthy item to take place, an event, how come
American - American's have not had or heard anything
about this case?
DICK: Well, Wea - Weaver is going to be --
STEVE: What, what's with this press of ours,
the Associated Press and all the rest. Are they so
controlled that nothing can ever get out other than --
I mean, what you hear in one newspaper across America
is what you hear in all of them these days. It didn't
used to be that way, did it?
DICK: Steve, let, let me address the issue
with Weaver. Okay?
STEVE: Okay. Please do.
DICK: That seem - I know you've brought
that up a couple of occasions.
STEVE: Definitely have.
DICK: Okay. weaver, like others, are
represented by attorneys. Okay? He will have, and
there is an opportune time and an appropriate time, for
him to respond to those issues. The, the system in
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this country, while there are certainly some
shortcomings with the legal system in this country, I
think we all agree it's the best one in the world. He
picks his time to make these - his concerns known.
And much like you, he's, he's another that,
that was fed up with the system, this system of
Government, and chose to live another life and
unfortunately people were injured. But he had the
courage and the fortitude to come out and say, listen.
I want this known - Q
STEVE: I want to -- I'm talking about
hearing the man, what he's got to say about what
happened.
nxcx: He -- he's picking his time, Steve.
STEVE: I don't -- I have a hard time
believing that, because of what I've heard by others
that do know him, the little bit of coverage that came
out by small groups of people in, in other papers.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: I haven't heard even what's happened
to the case. There's no question the man would want to
speak in regards to what happened to his wife and all
the rest.
DICK: Well, well, sure. Listen. Let me,
let me draw you an analogy here. In Waco, Texas, every
newspaper, every TV station, every media source here is
I/M 37
riveted on this --
STEVE: I don't -- you know what?
DICK: Okay? -
STEVE: I don't, I don't doubt that, but --
DICK: No, okay. - -
STEVE: -- there's one, there's one problem.
Your people have moved them back further and further
and further, to the place where if we even did come out
we would be going right by them. So what if they're
there. They won't have any opportunity to talk with
us. They haven't had now. You took care of that way
back in the beginning.
DICK: Steve, that's completely untrue.
STEVE: I, I want -- I really did want to
talk issues to this country that's been so great.
DICK: _You'll have the opportunity to.
STEVE: We -- well, let's see about that.
DICK: Let, let me ask you. Okay. Worse
case scenario --
STEVE: Let - show me, show me what you're
talking about. Give me an example and, and maybe we'll
get going here with something more quickly.
DICK: An example?
STEVE: I'm talking about freedom of the
press and so forth. Freedom for me to speak as to what
happened. I'm in here minding my own business, haven't
-: 4O O
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done anything wrong, like neither -- no one else has.
It's not even been -- it's not been proven that David
has. '
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE: And if someone came to the door, I
mean, what --
DICK: You've -- let's -- let me stop you
here for a second and address that issue. Proof.
STEVE: 'You ought to see his --
DICK: Okay?
STEVE: But hey, Dick, you ought to see his
bedroom, how it was shot up by choppers and it was
seen. They were seen coming and when they came, what
they did. Three of them. Is that they way you serve a
warrant? You tell me.
DICK:M Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
STEVE: And, and I want the press to know
that. I haven't heard anything on TV about three
choppers, how they came guns ablazing. You, you want
us to walk out of here? You got to start doing
something, giving us connection to the press.
DICK: I was not there, okay?
STEVE: - I was.
DICK: You -- only you were there. Okay?
You will have access -- I'm telling you people are
going to write books about this, there are going to be
0Q
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movies about it, there are going to be Congressional
inquiries about it, the press from all over the world
is here. They're just waiting to get an opportunity to
talk with you folks.
STEVE: I'm sure they are. But, of course,
you cut them off. I've never - where in the
Constitution do you have the right to do something like
that?
DICK: We are charged to protect the lives of
the agents that are here --
STEVE: Listen --
DICX: -- the lives of the people inside, and
the newspaper people and everybody else.
STEVE: Don't, don't insult my integrity.
They're sitting out there in an armorclad Bradley.
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE: They, they can move around. They've
got so much --
DICK: Sure they can.
STEVE: -- and you can bring the whole United
States Army here if you want, whatever. The bottom
line is we were peaceable before, we have been since.
The greatest thing we showed you right from when the
incident happened was how we allowed immediately others
to come onto the property and take these wounded off
and, and the bodies of those that passed away. We were
~
Q-.: <
~40
-- in fact, I was the guy on the telephone working with
you guys right from the beginning. .
DICK: As was Jim.
STEVE: Trying to get them --
Pause.!
DICK: You still there?
STEVE: Yeah. I'm listening to them. David
says you're just damn, belligerent bullies.
DICK: Well --
STEVE: with a double tongue and this is what
you guys have shown from the beginning.
DICK: Well, I -- that's not true and I hope
that -- .
STEVE: No, it is true. It is true, because
of the very statements that Jim made and promised us,
what has taken place since then, the cutting off to the
press, even though we were opening our -- why are we so
-- why do we appear to be so weird, the rumors. He was
explaining to the press our, our stance and belief in
God and, and the power that be that we all will have to
come before.
DICK: Well --
STEVE: Wait. Now, he's talking -- I'll pass
it on to you, Dick. Just hang on.
Pause.!
STEVE: You, you've cut us off in our
41
communications and now we can't answer in our behalf,
whereas you can give all the rhetoric, all the
information in the manner you want and it's been com --
totally -- so frequently incorrect as you know it, like
yesterday.
DICK: Well, listen --
STEVE: Wait, wait. First you come on and
the ATF agent says that there was a shootout between
this group and the sheriff's department. That's
correct -- then he says in '88 -- then he -- then when
he goes to correct it, it's still wrong because he
gives the wrong year 3- I mean, this is -- it
constantly is that way. I watched yesterday, even
though Rick who is your representative to the press did
a better job than most --
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVEQH -- the facts still were not totally
correct. And it is not hard to get them correct. I'll
give you and point you to the places where you can get
the information right before it's given, but it does
not happen that way. So while we sit here and we watch
all of this, it's so unnecessary that you're so inept
as a department to do something like that.
Especially in regards to making that
statement about this group being in battle with the
sheriff's department in '87. I mean, come on. The
~
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an- <..!a--records are
story -- if
is that bad
get to haveO
42
"right there. You can't even get a simple
that's the way it is, and this Government
off, what guarantees that we come'out, we
an opportunity to speak in our behalf and
give the, the account as it was given?
Imean, this is what, you know, can, can you
blame us? Put yourself on the inside looking out with
no connection anyway.
DICK: When have you ever seen --
STEVE: Wait. He's talking. Can I pass it
on to you --
.~-. .,
DICK: Sure.
STEVE: -- because you won't know otherwise?
DICK: Sure. -
STEVE: Go ahead.
Pause.!_
STEVE: You, you said you're involved because
AT --
DICK: Hey, Steve. Why don't you go ahead
and put Dave on the phone instead of trying to relay
what he's --
STEVE: Okay, let me -- okay. I will. Just
a moment. You want to talk to him? No, he doesn't.
Okay. He says now you say you're involved as an
agency, the FBI, because ATP agents were killed.
DICK: Well --
2.0 0
43
STEVE: And then you said what, David?
Pause.! ,
DICK: See, I can't - you know, it's
difficult for you to relay. Ask him to talk directly
to me and, and we'll and, and he's got these
concerns --
STEVE: Well, he's saying --
DICK: -- we'll - I'll be happy to talk to
him about it.
STEVE: - and you're leaving out to the
world that a child was killed when they came to the
door and started shooting. So what crime's been
committed? There can't be a secondary crime when a
crime was committed, number one, by the Government and
their procedure, what they chose to do, and they did
not do as the Constitution allows. Especially when the
warrant and how the warrant is to be given.
DICK: Do you think I support what was done?
STEVE: I haven't said that.
DICK: Ask David that.
STEVE: Yes.
DICK: Put David on the phone and let me talk
directly to him. I don't support that and I don't know
anybody that does.
STEVE: I - he claims he does not support
that and he doesn't know anyone that does.
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STEVE: David says, what a liar.
DICK: Well, I have not --
STEVE: He says take the time to read Psalms
149, Dick.
DICK: Listen. Let me tell you something,
Steve. -
STEVE: He cares for you as a person --
DICK: Steve, I understand that and I'll be
happy, at the appropriate time, and I'm going to look
at Psalms and I'm going to look at some of these other
passages he mentioned. However, right now, at this
moment, at this time --
STEVE: You don't realize -- '
DICK: -- we have to -- all this impasse.
STEVE: You don't realize. If you opened
your Bible to Psalms 68 it talks about God having
20,000 chariots.
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: Understand. All these prophets
taught in the last conflict between a little group of
people and it doesn't have to be us. I'm no person
that's running around with some banner saying hey, it's
me, it's me.
DICK: Um-hum. A
STEVE: But the Bible is clear. If you, if
~
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you took the time, I'll show you or he will, that there
are chapters after chapters showing that when this
conflict winds down, there are other worlds, there's
other peoples that God has created --
DICK: Well, let's wind this conflict down.
STEVE: - that - listen, listen, listen to
this now. Whether you believe it or not, they're going
to come down in what is called a Murkeva phonetic
sp.!. It's a Hebrew word. It's in the Bible. It's a
chariot so large that all of mankind, from the
beginning of Adam and Eve, they're so huge, would fit
into one. So these worlds, a number of these worlds,
are going to empty out. They're going to get into
these vehicles. This is why it says God has 20,000
chariots. Then it goes on to tell about his angels,
the power - _
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- that he has to destroy.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: So it says that they're coming to
this world to watch this last great conflict. So right
now, our interest, our concern is for your life, for
your safety. See, we look out here at these little
Bradleys and so forth and all the rest. My concern is
not mankind other than for your salvation. It's not
that we have a fear for man. we do fear this God.
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This is why people have not left here. It's not that
he has some kind of great power over these minds.. You
and if fact -- in fact, in coming out and sitting
down with any kind of an interrogator, a psycho --
psychologist, psychiatrist, you'll find that these
people are the most logical, common sense - this is
what we're talking about. This is what the Bible is.
DICK: I don't doubt that at all.
STEVE: But the, the -- that person that
created you and me, that being that created you and I,
the one that's beyond us, is angry. All the prophets
.~ -. .,
show in the last days, you've been doing your own thing
all your life, I've been doing my own thing all my
life. ~
DICK: All right.
STEVE: There comes a day when we all have to
give an account. God wants us to slow down and take a
look at what he's offering. Otherwise, now, now --
real careful here, as in the days of Noah. Noah
preached for 120 years, people didn't take him serious.
The same is happening today. There's one last time,
there's going to be an ark of safety, one last time.
And where's that ark of safety going to be? You see,
that's what we're trying to share with you. People
scoffed at Noah. They were living in this life. They
had their system. They believed in their god. They
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had something to say about God. The day came where the
safety was to get into the Ark. That was salvation.
Everybody went swimming except for the eight. So
that's what our concern is for you and for these
agencies and for others --
DICK: Okay.
STEVE: -- but
anybody and if you think
DICK: You can
STEVE: Listen
DICK: ,¥ou canwe
we
to
incan't make that known to
listen, listen, Steve.
me.
your own mind. I mean, you
can but you have to accept it -- listen. I didn't mean
to interrupt. I apologize for that, but one of the
Bradleys apparently has some, some repair problems that
are going to have to be fixed, so there might be -- you
might see some smoke coming from one of them. So I
just want you to be alert to that and --
STEVE: I -- should I tell you what I think
is happening there?
DICK: Okay, sure
STEVE: That I might see some smoke coming
from one of those Bradleys. They're going to probably
try out the system they have there --
DICK: The system.
STEVE: -- that creates -- I, I'm aware.
See, we even have books on things like that.
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DICK: Okay. What system are you talking --
I'm not familiar with the Bradley. '
STEVE: I don't have the, I don't have the
book in front of me, but if I, I went and got it here
now --
DICK: Well, I'm telling you that there is
not going to be anything done except they're doing the
repair. Now, you'll find that to be true as soon as
it's done, but I -- accept that from me.
STEVE: Well, what kind of a, what kind of a
repair? Are you talking about an engine repair?
DICK: I assume if there's going to be smoke
that it must be an engine --
STEVE: Well, see, these Bradleys are made
and have a device where they create smoke, create --
DICK: -No, no. we're not talking about
laying a field of fog down or anything of that nature.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: I mean --
STEVE: Well, they do have that capability,
of course.
DICK: Well, certainly they do. In, in a war
zone. This is not a war zone.
STEVE: What Bradley is it? Where's it
located?
DICK: I don't -- which Bradley is it?
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2549
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER I1: -- it's the
one back by the water tower. A -
DICK: There's one up by the, the tower up
there, the water tower that they're going to fix.
STEVE: One by the water tower? What,
where's -- .
DICK: It's going to be done there. They're
going to do it there. Double E Road is where they're
going to do the repair work.
STEVE: On Double E Road.
DICK: Yeah. Near -- on Double E Road
they're going to do it --
STEVE: I see it over there.
DICK: Again, it's an inconsequential thing,
but we want to tell you about it --
STEVE: .I see. Okay.
DICK: -- so you won't be concerned.
STEVE: Okay. Is that John what you were
speaking with?
DICK: No, one of the other fellows over
there. No, John's gone.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: You know, he was there during the
evening and he's gone.
srzvs: Right.
DICK: He'll be, he'll be back with you
~
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25tonight.SO
STEVE: No, it's not that I'm requesting him.
DICK: No, I understand.
STEVE: I just thought, I thought I heard a
familiar voice.
DICK: No, it
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: One of
Steve.
STEVE: Yes.
DICK: I, you
you think that I'm just
not true.
STEVE: No, I
degree.was not John.
the guys just yelled in at me.
know, unfortunately you've --
telling you these things. It's
believe you're sincere to a
DICK: Absolutely sincere.
STEVE: I do.
DICK: But we have to -- you know, you can
talk about these concerns of yours for the next two
years. I can listen to it for the next two years. I
can tell you what my concerns and my wishes and our
respective agency wishes are, but ultimately we are not
going away until you come out of there --
STEVE: One of the biggest impasses, Dick,
that we have, it's two things, which have been right
from the beginning.
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DICK: Okay.
STEVE: One of the biggest things of all
things is that you cut us off. You cut our telephones
off from talking to who we will.
DICK: We, we, we do this in every --
STEVE: Especially after you, especially
after you came here, and when I say you I'm talking
about that agency which came to take the lives of
people indiscriminately. They didn't even were not
concerned about women and children, even though Wayne
and I were screaming on the phone to the 911 number.. -. .,
David's at the front door saying back off, we'll
communicate. He said there are women - I heard him
before there was any gunfire, I heard him call that
out.
DICK: Then tell that to the world.
STEVE: And they, and they were shooting
through the walls. How can - you're telling me that
- I don't -- that's what we want to do is tell it to
the world. Put - leave our phones -- put them as they
were, as is given in the Constitution the freedoms that
we should have to be able to speak. And if you want to
refute that --
DICK: You will have those services restored
eventually.
STEVE: If you want to get your people to
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refute that, that is fine. That is fine.
DICK: I'm not going to refute that. '
STEVE: Let us, let us tell our side of the
If you think I'm going to come out and put story.
myself in your hands without being mal - being able to
speak my mouth and mind.
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: You show me, you show me, first of
all, something that I can really rely on. I haven't
seen anything like that yet. On the contrary, like I
told you, what Jim told me, told David so - he gave
his word on behalf of the agency. I remember he used
the word perimeter --
DICK: Um-hum.
STEVE: That these Bradleys, would be three
of them, would come up to the very edge of the
perimeter, to the property, but would not come onto the
property. And no one would come on to the property and
we agreed.
DICK: Steve --
STEVE: And he even said that there would be
maneuvers at times. We agreed to that. That's fine.
DICK: Let me, let me give you an analogy
here, okay?
STEVE: But listen. But, Dick, though. Hear
me though now. Hear me.
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54
the beginning, that in this process that if anything
would happen, any movements, you -- was it you that --
yes. I believe it was -- it was you yesterday that
told me that one of the guys are out and, and made you
kind -- it seemed like you were mad about it. One of
our -- without me knowing. What? That's what insult
-- that's why Gary --
DICK: No, I wasn't mad. I just wanted to
pass on to you --
STEVE: But I -- hey, but I got mad because
you had the audacity to react like you did and here
. w
you've got these guys running around our property
digging around in our vehicles, doing things that they
-- they were never given to do in the agreement in the
first place. It's one thing for me to alert you to
what we're doing. _The vi - the other has not
happened. Why didn't you tell me they were going to
run over the shack ahead of time?
DICK: Because we didn't know it.
STEVE: You better -- well, gain control over
them. We'll --
DICK: Listen. We'll --
STEVE: No, no, no, no, Dick. We'll start --
DICK: Go ahead. I'm going to give you
another min --
End of Tape #65!