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FEDERALBUREAUCFINVESHGAHON
Precedence: ROUTINE Date: ll/17/2003 -
To: Counterterrorism Attn: PENTTBOM Team,
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Attn: ITOSl ETIU-4
SSA
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International Operations Attn: UC b6Washington Field Attn: Sq ad IT6 b7C
SAI I
From: BerlinContact: SAI _ I
Approved By: [:::::::::::::] ,nLL INFORMATION CONTAINED
HEREIN IE UNCLASSIFIED
Drafted By: I IT:ctaI#1QQ660Q232UU6 BY EUBUQ AUC
TAMEMLIFCLS
Case ID #: 265AWF-227135 Pending!
Title: ABDELGHANI MZOUDI, aka
Talha
ITAOT -
Synopsis: Report testimony of Holger Liszkowski provided on '
O9/O9/2003.Administrativ : All court proceedinq were conducted in the Germanlanguage. SAT_ translated his summary notes
from German into Engftsh.
Enclosure s!: Enclosed is one l! FD34O containing original notes
concerning Holger Liszkowskis testimony and the court proceedings.
Details: On O9/09/2003, Special Agent "SA"!I Iattended the morning session of the criminal trial of Abdelghani
Mzoudi convened by the Third Criminal Panel of the Hanseatic Higher
Regional Court . Strafsenat des Hanseatisches Oberlandesgericht! in
Hamburg, Germany. -
' Appearing for the prosecution were Chief Prosecutor Walier
Hemberger and Prosecutors Dr. Matthias Krau and Gerhardt Hummer from
the Federal Prosecutor's Office for the Federal Republic of Germany
"Generalbundesanwaltschaft"!.
Appearing for the defense were Gul Pinar and Michael _
Rosenthal.
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Appearing for the civil litigants "Nebenklager"! were
Andreas Schulz, Dr. First Name Unknown! von Grohnen appearing on
behalf of Dr. Ulrich von Jeinsen, and other German attorneys
appearing on behalf of the various civil litigants.
Administrative_Matters
The court took judicial notice that a new attorney Name
Not Provided! was appearing on behalf of some of the civil litigants.
The court also verified that copies of the U.S. Government
report had been received by defense counsel as per its request of
08/29/2003.
Chief Judge Klaus Ruhle next informed all of the parties
that he had personally spoken with Chief Prosecutor Walter Hemberger
about obtaining the record of the interview of First Name Not
Provided! Koch which was scheduled for 10/l3/2003.
Testimony of Holger Liszkowski
The court now called Holger Liszkowski hereinafter
"Liszkowski"!, a thirty 0! year old, white male employed as an
epgineer and residing in the county of Bohlingen, Germany, to testify
about his knowledge of events in the student dormitory lotated at
Schuttstrasse 3 in Hamburg, Germany.
Liszkowski advised the court that he was not related to
Abdelghani Mzoudi, Mounir El Motassadeq, Ramzi Mohammed Abdullah
Binalshibh, Said Bahaji or Zakariya Essabar.
Liszkowski moved into Room 342C in/the student dormitory
in either April or May of 1996. Ralph Gottsche was living in the
same student dormitory.
Liszkowski lived in the dormitory through the end of the
summer of 2000. He thought that he might have moved out of the
dormitory in September 2000.
Mounir El Motassadeq hereinafter "Motassadeq"! lived in a
room in the same student dormitory for most of the same time period
as Liszkowski.
Liszkowski could not recall the date when Motassadeq moved
out of the student dormitory, but it might have been sometime during
December 1999 or in early 2000.
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After Motassadeq moved out of the room in the student
dormitory@3hg;sgg%%§1Qggégbom.tQ;one of his friends until July 2000.
This sublet was not officially approved. Motassadeq
permitted his girlfriend, Maria Last Name Unknown!, to remain in his
room. Maria was in Germany illegally, as she did not have an
immigration visa from the German Government permitting her to study
in Germany.
Maria initially stayed in one of the empty rooms on their
floor in the student dormitory. When the empty room was assigned to
another student by the university administration, she moved out of
that room and into Motassadeq's room.
Liszkowski recalled that there was a cleaning schedule
posted downstairs in the dormitory. This schedule had the names
contact addresses of most of the former residents of the student
dormitory. Some of the individuals were also identified by the
addresses of their parents, as well as contact telephone numbers.and
The cleaning schedule also listed the address of
Motassadeq's friends where Motassadeq could be contacted, if
necessary.
Pisikowski believed that the contact address listed for
Motassadeq was Marienstrasse 54 in Hamburg, Germany. - *
Chief Judge Ruhle informed Liszkowski that it was
documented in his police statement that Motassadeq's contact
telephone number was O4O7675l83O. The Chief Judge wanted to know
from Liszkowski whether this was still correct.
_ Liszkowski answered that he could not remember the
telephone number exactly. Liszkowski has an Excel spreadsheet on his
computer back home, and he could look up that telephone number to seeif it was the correct telephone number. '
Liszkowski described Motassadeq as a serious and religious
Muslim, who adhered to the prayer rules.
Liszkowski testified that Motassadeq lived in his own
world. Motassadeq only stayed within his circle of friends.
.~ »..,; ,=:_:'a<<.'¢,,,-F..- ya _ . an'5§&¬as§§&¬§§§§not§§§ry amenable to compromise. On
several occasions, the university administration had to step in and
resolve conflicts involving Motassadeq. For instance, Motassadeq
caused trouble concerning the wine and beer bottles in the trash, thebeer posters with scantily clad women and the storage of alcoholicdrinks in the refrigerator. Liszkowski had the feeling that
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Motassadeq did not want to compromise with the other residents of the
dormitory floor.
Motassadeq often had Muslim visitors from Morocco, the
United Arab Emirates, and Palestine or the Sudan. These visitors
were students enrolled at the university in Hamburg, Germany.
Motassadeq and his visitors would eat together in the
common room located on their floor of the dormitory. Afterwards,
they would talk among themselves. It was clear to Liszkowski that he
and the other residents of their floor were not invited to join
Motassadeq's circle of friends.
The common room was very small, and often Motassadeq and
his friends would fill the entire room. The number of visitors was
usually between two ! and five ! persons.
Liszkowski recalled that the topic of Israel had come up
in a conversation with Motassadeq. Liszkowski had taken a trip to
Israel in either May or June of 1997, and mentioned this to
Motassadeq. Motassadeq corrected Liszkowski and told him that it was
called Palestine, and not Israel. This resulted in a discussion
about Israel and the peace process.
~ Motassadeq was quite clear about his views, when he told _
Liszkowski that there would be no peace with Israel. 'It became
equally apparent to Liszkowski that Motassadeq was unwilling to
compromise in his views concerning this subject.
Chief Judge Ruhle now pointed out a possible discrepancy
in Liszkowski's testimony. According to Liszkowski's previous
statement given to police investigators, he had stated that this
conversation had occurred right after Itzhack/Rabin's assassination
in 1995. The Chief Judge now wanted to know when Liszkowski had
spoken with Motassadeq about his views on Israel.
Liszkowski advised the court that he envisioned the wrong
time frame when he gave his statement to the police. He was certain
now that this conversation had occurred in 1997 and not earlier.
Their conversation could not have occurred in 1995, since he had not
even moved into the student dormitory until 1996.
Chief Judge Rhle then asked whether there had been any
other,problems with Motassadeq. Liszkowski responded by explaining
that Motassadeq complained about the pictures on the walls, that he
did not want to see any posters or postcards with women tacked on the
walls. Motassadeq considered this to be a great insult.
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Once, Motassadeq had made a comment about a "Great Man" to
Hydar phonetic! Last Name Not Provided!. When Liszkowski wanted to
sit down and join them, Motassadeq made it clear that he was not
welcome to join their discussion.
Another time, Liszkowski was around the corner when he
overheard a conversation between Motassadeq and another person.
Liszkowski had recognized Motassadeq's voice.
Motassadeq told the other person in the conversation that
"we will do something bad again," and that "we will dance on their
graves." Since Liszkowski was around the corner, he could not see
the person to whom Motassadeq was speaking. Liszkowski considered
Motassadeq's comments as very odd.
Liszkowski could not remember the exact date when he
overheard this conversation. He thought that it had occurred towardsthe end of their mutual residence in the student dormitory.
Consequently, it would have been towards either the end of 1998 or
the beginning of 1999.
Liszkowski would never have imagined that Motassadeg was
planning something.
Motassadeg and the other person spoke German in a loudvoice, but not too loudly. They were definitely not whispering with
one another. Motassadeq's voice sounded as if he was enthusiastic
about the subject, while the other person sounded more reserved and
critical. The comments just seemed to flow out of Motassadeq. The
other person asked questions, and often interjected comments, like
"yes", "ahha," and "how," into the conversation. They also made
references to the "burning of people."
Liszkowski found the whole conversation frightening. Hethought that he was in a dream. He remembered that they kept using
the word "them."
Liszkowski could not discern from their conversation
they were considering undertaking action themselves, or
whether they were expressing their admiration for someone else's
actions. He wondered about the entire conversation, but there was
nothing specific about which he could ask them.whether
Liszkowski had already discussed the topic of Israel with
Motassadeq, and knew his views toward Israel before he overheard this
unusual conversation about "dancing on graves." Therefore,Liszkowski reasoned that if he tried to ask Motassadeq about this
unusual conversation, then Motassadeq would just try to deny
everything.
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The Chief Judge then asked Liszkowski about Necdi Last
Name Not Provided!. Liszkowski testified that Necdi was nicer. Necdi
had grown up in Germany and had come to Hamburg to study at the
university. Necdi had attended German schools and could speak German
well.
Necdi was not like Motassadeq. Necdi participated in the
house activities and organized trips. Although Necdi was a Muslim,
he was not as strictly religious or fanatical like Motassadeq.
Necdi was fully integrated into Motassadeq's group of
Muslim friends. He would accompany Motassadeq and his friends to the
mosque.
Liszkowski described Necdi as everyone's contact person
concerning issues involving Motassadeq and the other Muslims.
Liszkowski and Gottsche would both bring their complaints to Necdi,
and ask him to speak with Motassadeq and the others.
Liszkowski occasionally saw Necdi at the university or in
the university cafeteria. Necdi had told him that he was unhappy
with Motassadeq's group of friends. They were too religious for him,
and furthermore, they met in the evenings when he had to study for
his_classes.
Lisikowski was unsure, but he thought that it might have
been Necdi who had been with Motassadeq in the area. He was certain
about Motassadeq. However, he only surmised that Necdi was the
second person in the conversation, since Motassadeq usually talked to
Necdi.
Chief Judge Ruhle asked Liszkowski whether the other
person in the conversation could possibly have been another one of
Motassadeq's visitors. Liszkowski did not think that the other
person was a visitor, since Motassadeq's visitors spoke almost
exclusively Arabic with him. To the best of Liszkowski's knowledge,
Motassadeq never had any German visitors.
Liszkowski admitted that it was theoretically possible fora visitor, whom he had never have met before, to have participated in
the conversation with Motassadeq. In any event, Liszkowski was
stunned by what he had heard in this conversation.
Chief Judge Ruhle now asked Liszkowski to explain the
circumstances concerning the comment about a "pilot." Liszkowski
explained that Motassadeq and two ! or three ! of his friends
were gathered around the table in the common room on their floor. It
may even have been more people, but he was no longer certain as to -
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the exact number of people in the room. Liszkowski had also not seen
Motassadeq for quite some time.
when Liszkowski entered the room, Motassadeq came towards
him and then, pointing at one of his friends, said, "this is our
pilot." Liszkowski was unsure now whether Motassadeq had pointed at
Mohammed Atta or another one of his friends.
At the time, Liszkowski thought that this was an unusual
comment, since he could not understand why someone who had a good job
as a pilot would still be a student and hang around a student
dormitory. Liszkowski initially thought that Motassadeq might have
been intending to say that his friend had received flight training in
the military. A situation like that would not be unusual, even for
German students. In any event, Liszkowski did not give the matter
much further thought, so he never followed-up with any questions to
the "pilot", such as the name of the airline for which he flew, or
about his military service.
Chief Judge Ruhle asked Liszkowski whether the word
"pilot" might have been used to imply something like a "leader"
instead of being a reference to flying. Liszkowski was certain that
Motassadeq did not intend to use the word "pilot" in lieu of the
word "leader." In fact, Liszkowski thought that Motassadeq was
implying something more technical such as military aircraft.
The Chief Judge then wanted to know why Liszkowski
immediately thought of an airplane. Liszkowski explained that it
would not have made any sense for Motassadeq to use the word "pilot"
in such a complicated manner, if he only intended to.denote a
"leader" by the word.
For example, Liszkowski testified that when Motassadeq
spoke of the preacher at the mosque, he used simple terms to describe
him. He identified the preacher as a "great man." In the case of
the "pilot," Motassadeq was referring to a single person. He pointed
to one individual and even slapped him on the shoulder. Motassadeq
seemed to be very proud of this individual, as was everyone else in
the room. For this reason, Liszkowski thought that he had meant an
airplane pilot. ,
Liszkowski thought that this incident had happened
sometime in 1999.
Chief Judge Ruhle then read from Liszkowski's previous
police statement. Liszkowski had stated that he came to the common
room one evening and noticed two ! or three ! people in the room
with Motassadeq. Liszkowski remarked that there was some life again,
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to which Motassadeq approached him and made the comment about the
"pilot."
Liszkowski testified that this statement was correct. He
also recalled having already known the person to whom Motassadeq
referred to as their "pilot." Liszkowski had previously seen this
individual in the company of Motassadeq and his friends. Everyone
seemed to be very proud of this individual. The individual pointed
out by Motassadeq, however, was not very pleased about this comment.
He seemed to be embarrassed by it. He also appeared uncomfortable
about being the center of attention. He sort of downplayed the
comment. Thereafter, the conversation in the room died down quickly.
Liszkowski just found the situation to be very odd, since
he had seen this individual before, and he could not understand why
someone with pilot training would still be a student, instead of
earning lots of money.
Chief Judge Ruhle now gave Liszkowski an exhibit binder
containing approximately seventynine 9! photographs. The Chief
Judge instructed Liszkowski to review the photographs in the exhibit
binder, and to identify the photographs of any individuals whom he
recognized.
~ After reviewing the binder, Liszkowski was sure that he
recognized Picture #1 as someone who had visited Motassadeq once dr"
twice at the student dormitory. This individual had been invited by
Motassadeq from the mosque to have dinner with him at the dormitory.
Picture #2 seemed familiar to Liszkowski. He thought that
it might be an earlier photograph of Motassadeq's friend known as
Ahmed Last Name Unknown!.
Liszkowski identified Pictures #4 and #6 as Mohammed Atta,
known to him at the time as El Amir, and Said Bahaji, respectively.
Picture #5 was a person who often visited Motassadeq, but
whose name he did not know.
Liszkowski did not know the individual in Picture #9, but
the person seemed familiar to him, especially around the eyes.
Picture #12 was a person who was in Motassadeq's circle of
friends, and regularly visited him in the common room. This person
remained silent during the conversations. He was the "man who never
said anything."
Picture #13 was a regular visitor for Motassadeq at the
student dormitory.
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Picture #14 seemed familiar to Liszkowski. He thought
that thisg§g;soq§§§appe§;ance5might have changed since this
photographwas t§ken.7 He also thought that this person could be one
of the people who later moved into
the student dormitory.
Picture #15 was a person
person had drastically changed his
Picture #16 was a personone of the rooms on his floor of
whom Liszkowski knew. This
appearance.
who was not one of Motassadeq's
regular visitors. He was not in the inner circle of friends. He
came maybe once or twice to visit.
Picture #17 was someone who joined Motassadeq's group at a
later time. Liszkowski saw him at
know his name.the student dormitory, but did not
Picture #19 was a picture of Abdelghani Mzoudi.
Picture #20 seemed familiar, while Picture #21 was
Motassadeq.
Picture #23 was a person
seen speaking with Motassadeg.whom Liszkowski thought he had
- Picture #27 and #36 was Sayyed {Last Name Not Provided!
Pictures #29 and #31 were individuals who only came to
visit Motassadeq occasionally.
Pictures #46 and 48 were
visitors to Motassadeg.
Picture #49 was Mohammedindividuals whom he had seen as
/
Atta, aka El Amir.
Pictures #63, #68, and #73 were visitors of Motassadeq.
Liszkowski had seen them in the student dormitory.
Pictures #53 and #78 were persons whom Liszkowski thought
he might have seen them as visitors for Motassadeq. The person in
Picture #78 was a student.
ypgssociate,Judge_Dr.;JFirst Name Unknown! Mohr asked
Liszkowskf*ff ne:r§hE§§bt"n§§e recognized Picture #16 from somewhere
else. Liszkowski answered that he recalled seeing this particular
individual in the media. Nonetheless, he was certain that this
particular person also visited Motassadeq at the student dormitory.
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The Associate Judge asked whether Liszkowski had informed
the police investigators that he had seen this individual in the
television, but that he did not know the person's name. Liszkowski
was certain that he knew this particular person as one of
Motassadeq's visitors.
The Associate Judge next asked Liszkowski if Motassadeq
ever described Hydar Last Name Not Provided! as a "great man."
Liszkowski testified that Motassadeq held a dinner in Hydars honor
on one ! or two ! occasions. Motassadeq and the others at the
dinner called him "Hydar."
Associate Judge Dr. Mohr also asked Liszkowski if
Motassadeq made a "steering motion" when he talked about the "pilot."
Liszkowski explained that Motassadeq pointed to a specific individual
when he said that this person was their "pilot." He could not recall
now whether Motassadeq had also made "steering motions" while making
this comment. Nonetheless, Liszkowski was certain that Motassadeq
had not meant a "leader" when he used the word, "pilot."
The Associate Judge then asked what Liszkowski thought
that Motassadeq had meant when he made the comment that they would do
something again. Liszkowski had understood this to mean that they
were planning something for the future, but not as if they meant to
do something the next day._ ~
Liszkowski said that Motassadeq and the others listehed to
audio cassettes with Arabic recordings. There was also a room to
watch videos.
In addition, there was a portable film projector which
Motassadeq borrowed once to watch a film in his room. Liszkowski saw
Motassadeq watching the film in his room, because Motassadeq had left
the door to his room open a bit. /
Usually, Motassadeq kept the door to his room closed,
especially when he was praying.
Maria also lived with Motassadeq in his room. Maria had
come from Russia and stayed in Berlin for a while. She had come to
Hamburg to study at the university and seek employment as a research
assistant. However, her application for a student visa had been
rejected, so she could not officially enroll at the university.
Maria was, thus, living at the student dormitory illegally.
When Liszkowski first met Maria, she was very Western in
her appearance and thinking. At first, she lived alone in one of the
vacant rooms on their dormitory floor. When that room was assigned
to another student by the university administration, she vacated the
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room and moved into Motassadeq's room. She became romantically
involved with Motassadeq.
Soon, Liszkowski noticed that Maria was wearing a full
veil. On one occasion, she was standing next to him in a checkout
line, and he did not recognize her with her veil and Arabicstyle
clothing.
As Maria became more involved with Motassadeq, she no
longer wanted to have anything to do with Liszkowski and the other
residents of the student dormitory. She started to isolate herself.
WhenMaria initially lived alone in the dormitory, she
would often have visitors, including some of Motassadeq's friends.
Liszkowski believed that some of Motassadeq's friends had a romantic
interest in Maria.
Liszkowski thought that Motassadeq's comment about the
"pilot" had been made before Maria moved in with him.
Liszkowski testified that it was obvious to him where
Motassadeq stood on the issues of Israel and the United States. He
would sometimes have a brief conversation about the United States
with Motassadeq
_ Motassadeq made it clear that he disagreedfwith the ~
foreign policyof the United States, and that he was not a friend of
the United States. Liszkowski thought that Motassadeq discussed the
subject of the United States within his circle of friends, but not
with Liszkowski or the other residents.
One of Motassadeq's friends was a Sudanese, who did not
come very often. He was very funny and laughed often.
Motassadeq was not present for the transfer of his student
dormitory room
see how things
anything about
Subleases wereto someone else. He would show up every few weeks to
were going. The university administration never knew
Motassadeq having sublet his room until July 2000.
not permitted by the university administration.
Liszkowski did not know to where Motassadeq went after
moving out of his dormitory room. Liszkowski thought that Motassadeq
had returned home to Morocco to visit his family.
Liszkowski did not know whether Motassadeq traveled to any
other foreign countries, since Motassadeq never mentioned visiting
other countries. There was one instance when Motassadeq mentioned
taking a vacation_to Afghanistan. It was more of a general
conversation between Motassadeq and his closest friends, and did not
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appear to pertain solely to Motassadeq. Liszkowski, nonetheless,thought that Afghanistan would be an odd place to visit for a
vacation.
Maria was present during this conversation and also for
most of the gatherings between Motassadeq and his circle of friends
in the common room. Maria was also in Motassadeq's room whenever he
and the others retired to the room to pray. They closed the door
whenever they prayed92in the room.
Prosecutor Dr. Matthias Kraub next posed questionsconcerning Maria. Liszkowski testified that he sometimes spoke with
Maria. However, the greater her involvement with Motassadeq became,
the more she isolated herself from Liszkowski and the others on the
floor. She began to stay in her room and rarely leave. Once, shebegged Liszkowski to take her along to a summer festival at the
university, while Motassadeq entertained some guests in their room.
Liszkowski would be able to recognize the voice of the
second person with whom Motassadeq spoke when he referred to "dancing
on their graves." That person's voice sound enthusiastic.
Andreas Schulz, appearing for the civil litigants "Nebenklager"!, asked Liszkowski to describe Motassadeq's views of
Israel. Liszkowski answered that Motassadeq believed that peace with
Israel was impossible. The Arabs had trusted Israel over and over
again, and each time they had been lied to and mislead.
It became a dogma to Motassadeq. The basic premise was
that there could never be peace with Israel. Liszkowski even asked
Motassadeq how he had arrived at this viewpoint.
Defense attorney Gul Pinar now asked Liszkowski to
describe the student dormitory. He testified that one stood directly
in front of the common room with the sofa after walking up the
entrance stairs. To the left was a hallway where the kitchen was
located. There were two ! rooms connected to that hallway. One of
the rooms belonged to Motassadeq. The longer hallway connected with
a bathroom and toilet. To the left was Liszkowskis room, then Ralf
Gottsche's room and another room. The washing machines were in the
cellar.
When Liszkowski overheard the conversation betweenMotassadeq and the unknown person, he had just returned to his room
with his laundry. Motassadeq and the other person were around the
bend in the corridor by the bathrooms which were near his room. He
was able to overhear the conversation from his room, but could not
see the people involved.
12
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To: Counterterro. ,m From: Berlin
Re: 265AWF227l35, ll/17/2003
At the time of the conversation, Liszkowski believed that
only he, Motassadeq and possibly Necdi were the only ones physically
present in the dormitory. Ralf Gottsche and the resident from the
other room were not around that day.
Liszkowski did not know whether other people might have
been present on the floor of the dormitory, since people normally
dropped by the common room every half hour or so. If someone had
come by for a visit, then Liszkowski would probably have known this,
since the buzzer, which sounded whenever guests rang to be let onto
the floor, was located next to his room. Liszkowski did not hear the
buzzer ring before or after he overheard Motassadeq's conversation.
Thus, he did not believe that any visitors had been on his floor
during that time.
Some of the friends who visited Motassadeq stopped coming
and were later substituted by others. Thus, the people who visited
Motassadeq towards the end of his residence in the student dormitory
were different than the ones who came shortly after he moved to that
location. One of the friends who stopped coming was Ahmed Last Name
Not Provided!.
Liszkowski could not say with any certainty when people
stopped visiting Motassadeq, or when new friends started coming for
visits. Although he did not pay attention to the dates, he didnotice that they were different people. ~ * '
Defense attorney Pinar asked Liszkowski if he was sure
that Motassadeq used the word "again," when Liszkowski overheard the
conversation between Motassadeq and the unknown person. Liszkowski
testified that he was certain that Motassadeq said "again."
Furthermore, he equated the word "again" with attacks.
./
Defense attorney Michael Rosenthal asked whether there
might have been attacks in Israel during the specific time of
Motassadeq's conversation. Liszkowski testified that he did not know
of any attacks in Israel at that time. Nothing would have made him
think that Motassadeq and the other person were talking about attacks
in Israel.
Rosenthal now asked Liszkowski to look at Picture #51 once
more. He wanted to know how sure Liszkowski was about his
identification of that person. Liszkowski testified that he would
recognize that person from his appearance.
Rosenthal informed Liszkowski that he had told the police
investigators that he thought that the person in Picture #51 was
Mohammed El Amir, but that he was not entirely certain. Liszkowski
13
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Re: 265AWF227l35, ll/17/20031
responded that he would be able to identify him from the picture
today.
Rosenthal then asked what he had meant when he told the
police investigators that Motassadeq and the other person spoke to
one another "behind their hands." Liszkowski explained that he
meant that two ! people were trying to have a discreet
conversation. They were not whispering, but they were speaking
tone of voice implying that they did not want to be overheard.
spoke softly, but were still loud enough so that he was able to
overhear the conversation from a few meters away.had
in a
They
Rosenthal also asked if Motassadeq pointed directly at
someone when he mentioned their "pilot." Liszkowski informed him
that he was not sure anymore if Motassadeq simply pointed in a
general direction. Instead, he believed that Motassadeq pointed
directly at a person. Liszkowski knew this person, since this person
had visited Motassadeq before.
Liszkowski was uncertain, however, whether Motassadeq had
pointed at Mohammed Atta while uttering the "pilot" reference.
Liszkowski could identify Atta from his picture, if necessary. Atta
often called Motassadeq, and Liszkowski took down Atta's name for
telephone messages for Motassadeq.
Liszkowski had heard of Motassadeq's interest in
Afghanistan from a Palestinian. He himself never discussed
Afghanistan with Motassadeq.
Chief Judge Ruhle then asked Liszkowski if he ever had any
conversations with Mohammed Atta. Liszkowski testified that Atta had
spoken with him about city planning. Atta traveled around in order
to learn more about city planning. What Liszkowski noticed was that
Atta spoke German very well. Atta was able to express complex ideas
in German. His German was far superior to the German spoken by the
other Arabic men. Atta also appeared to be better versed in foreign
cultures.
Defense attorney Pinar now asked whether Motassadeq would
speak German with someone who spoke Arabic. Liszkowski testified
that not all of Motassadeq's visitors spoke Arabic. Thus, he spoke
German with a lot of his visitors. Motassadeq only spoke Arabic
occasionally with his visitors.
Liszkowski recalled that they spoke German a lot. He
could understand Motassadeq whenever he spoke German. Liszkowski
could not say when Motassadeq would decide to speak his native Arabic
instead of German.
14
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The court then granted a short recess before the next
scheduled witness would be called.
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K.' 92 924 :-* ; .
To: Counterterro im From: Berlin
Re: 265AWF227135, 11/17/2003
LEAD s!:
Set Lead 1: Info!
COUNTERTERRORISM
AT ETIU, DC
Read and clear.
Set Lead 2: Info!
INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS
AT IOUl, DC
Read and clear.
Set Lead 3: Discretionary!
WASHINGTON FIELD
AT WASHINGTON, DC
Disseminate as necessaryl
1iszkow.wpd
O9
/
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