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UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
Tape 82!TAPE #82
March 7, 1993
4:03 P.M. - 5:50 P
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DICK: - you have not lost any rights, you
will not lose any rights. All you have to do is
exercise those rights. And to do that is a simple
matter: come out and make your voice known. That's,
that's it, simply; it's simply that.
WAYNE: My voice is already known. Everyone
knows that you have a practicing attorney, under siege
DICK: Well, let's practice then, Wayne.
WAYNE: ~ under siege cutoff from the
courts. Everyone knows that. How do you, how do you
think that looks for you?
DICK: Come out and practice. That's all we
ask, Wayne, nothing more.
WAYNE: That's funny, that's funny.
DICK: Nothing more. You come out and you
use the education and the experience that you have to
represent those people along with others to represent
those people inside and to ensure that the information
that you want to furnish the outside world is furnished
to them so that the inquiry can go forward so that this
will never happen again; so if there are agents
involved in wrongdoing that, that they're handled
appropriately and the matter will go forward. As long
as you're staying in there we can't go forward with
that part of this whole incident. All of us want to do
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that. we're not here because we enjoy being here.
WAYNE: You enjoy what you're doing.
DICK: I don't enjoy what I'm doing --
WAYNE: There are a bunch of perverts in the
FBI and you knew it.
DICK: Well --
WAYNE: You enjoy what you do.
DICK: -- explain that to me. Explain that
to me, please.
WAYNE: Well, I don't have to explain that to
you. You know J. Edgar Hoover's record. You know the
videotape. You know the books written about him. How
long have you been with the FBI?
DICK: A good long while.
WAYNE: Who recruited you?
DICK: What does that have to do with what's
going on here today?
WAYNE: I'm asking you a question. Don't you
know was the director when you joined the FBI?
DICK: Well, you know, the director of the
FBI did not recruit me personally. You know that.
WAYNE: No, but --
DICK: Are you asking me who the director was
at that time?
WAYNE: Somebody that worked for him did.
DICK: J. Edgar Hoover was the director at
O 4
that time, yes.
WAYNE: Yeah, see, I knew it. I just knew
it.
DICK: You just knew that?
WAYNE: Oh, yeah, I knew that.
DICK: Well, you know --
WAYNE: Because your agency hasn't changed.
DICK: ~ the answer is right there. The
answer is right there.
WAYNE: Your agency has not changed in all of
these years.
DICK: It hasn't?
WAYNE: It has not.
DICK: Well, there have been many people that
have suggested that it has.
WAYNE: Well, then why is William B. Sessions
being kicked out?
DICK: William B. Sessions is not being
kicked out. When, when did you get that pearl of
wisdom?
WAYNE: The whole nation knows that the
bureaucracy within the FBI cannot get along with its
director, William B. Sessions.
DICK: Well, that's not at all true.
WAYNE: That is true.
DICK: You read in the newspaper certain
5
accounts presented by certain people. You think that
is, is the answer, what you read in the newspaper?
It's absolutely not the answer. All --
WAYNE: I'd like to read my newspaper, you
know, I paid for it. Who's getting
Who's getting my mail?
DICK: Now, Wayne, let me
WAYNE: Who's taking care
DICK: There's no ~-
WAYNE: Who's got my, my,
office telephone all rigged up?
DICK: Not, not the FBI.
what you're going to suggest?
WAYNE:
DICK:
you know that is
WAYNE:
attorney.
DICK: Okay.
WAYNE:
DICK:
because you know
WAYNE:
your name on the
means, Dick.
DICK:my newspaper?
ask you something.
of my clients?
my, my, my law
Is that, is that
You said you're in charge.
No, I - Wayne, you're an attorney and
100 percent inaccurate, 100 percent.
Law of agency, Dick. I'm an
I know about the law of agency.
That makes me, that makes me in charge
about the law of agencies?
That means you get to be - you get
lawsuit. That's, that's what it
Come on ahead. Come on ahead. I'm
willing, I'm willing --
WAYNE: Fine.
DICK: -- I92m
can get this resolved.
WAYNE: ~- you
link with the outside --
DICK: It will
WAYNE: - and
lawsuit, okay?
DICK: David ~
you my business card and
lawsuit.
WAYNE: where
card?
DICK: As soon
to hand it to you.
WAYNE: That's
DICK: I'll be
I'll leave it at a place
WAYNE: I, I g
as a body count won't yo
DICK: Wayne,
it's nonsense and you kn
WAYNE: It's n
DICK: You're
that is absolutely untruThen you open --
willing to accept that if we
open, open up a communication
be opened.
we'll put your name on the
I mean, Wayne, I will leave
you can name me in this
can I pick up your business
as you come out I'll be there
funny.
there to hand it to you, or
of your choosing.
uess you'll put it on my body
u?
that is unreasonable, it's,
ow it.
ot nonsense.
an attorney. You know that
e.
O .,
WAYNE: I
corrupt ever since
was it, '63, and faknow your government has been
it killed its leader back in what
iled to investigate and find out who
did it, who was responsible for it.
DICK: If
please make them av
convenience.you have those answers, Wayne,
ailable to us at your earliest
WAYNE: when is the investigation going to
start?
DICK: As
so we can get it ~
investigation. The
been set in motion,
complete it --
WAYNE: R
chairman?
DICK: I
newspaper since I'v
newspaper --
WAYNE:
DICK: -
WAYNE:
DICK: We
happy we'll ensure
delivered to you as
WAYNE; Asoon as you folks come out of there
we're already starting the
congressional inquiry has already
all right? Obviously, to, to
eally? Whose committee? Who's the
~ you know what, I haven't read a
e been in, in this city, not one
well ~
not one.
- somebody's reading my newspaper.
ll, I'll tell you if it'll make you
that your, your newspaper is
long as you like.
s long as I like?
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DICK: Listen, David, once again we made an
agreement concerning, concerning -
agreementsWAYNE:
DICK:
WAYNE:I'm not going to discuss David's
- the third seal.
I'm not going to discuss David's
agreements with you.
though ~
make an ag
done then?
public.
for three
okay?
make --DICK: All right. I'm suggesting to you
WAYNE:
reement
DICK:
0
I WAYNE
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
days?
10 WAYNE
DICK:
4
n WAYNE
DICK:
Q
0WAYNEI don't think you're competent to
Really?
Really.
Okay. How, how would you suggest it's
I think it should be done in the
Absolutely. What have we been saying
I'll agree with you --
So put, put, put David's
100 percent.
-- agreement out there in the public,
100 percent. David can come out and
And let David discuss it.
DICK: Absolutely. We've asked him to do
that, put David --
WAYNE: With the public.
DICK: What have we been asking him to do fo
three days?
WAYNE: You've been lying.
DICK: Do you get any kind of feedback in
there?
WAYNE: You've been lying to the public.
You've been saying that you used no military weapons
here. Three choppers with machine guns blazing at us?
DICK: Wayne, that is completely untrue.
WAYNE: That's completely untrue, huh?
DICK: There were helicopters. Not one
helicopter had a machine gun in use.
WAYNE: There was a chopper that was tearing
apart rooms in this building not identifying any
targets.
DICK: David ~ Wayne, if you have that
information come out and share it with us, okay?
WAYNE: It was David Koresh's room.
DICK: If you have people in there that know
that to be true then obviously we want to have that
information. ATF -~
WAYNE: Well, if, if our people can come
out --9
r
C . 10
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
WAYNE:Listen, Wayne --
- and talk to the --
-- listen.
-- public then how come Catherine
Madison hasn't been allowed to talk to the public?
when is she going to get her press conference? What
about her rights?
DICK:
WAYNE:
second.
DICK:
WAYNE:
to her?
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
Madison that was
WAYNE:
out there?
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:Wayne, let's talk about here and now.
No, let's talk about that for a
Refresh my memory. Catherine Madison?
You need refreshing? What did you do
who is Catherine Madison?
Is she still alive?
You talking about the Catherine
inside there?
Aren't you talking about us coming
Absolutely.
Okay. So, we have --
She is a material witness.
-- we have.
She is a material witness. She's not
been charged. She is a material witness.
WAYNE: Look. I'm not going to believe you
if you say she hasn't been charged.
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
hear the press,
o
0 WAYNE
DICK:
WAYNE
DICK:
WAYNE:
DICK:
information ~-
WAYNE:
DICK:
make a statementDid you hear ~-
Don't waste my time.
did you hear the press, did
the, the press --
Let me talk to the press.
You will.
No, let me talk --
You will have every --
- to them now.
Wayne, when I offer you
Give me back my rights.
- you reject it, okay? Every
as to what is, then you refute
come up with something else.
WAYNE:
shall be. You,
about what is.
DICK:No, you make statements about
you haven't made any statements
what is is that we offered you,ll
you
time I
it and
what
to me
that
you meaning collectively, the, the bunch of you, the
folks out there in the compound, a lot of different
options.
WAYNE:
DICK:No, you haven't.
You have made --
WAYNE: You've made a lot of ultimatums --
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DICK: You have made --
WAYNE: a lot of threats --
DICK: David has made some agreements --
WAYNE: -- a lot of demands. You sit your
tanks on our cemetery. You know, that's a, that's a
criminal offense in the State of Texas?
DICK: Then, then charge us.
WAYNE: When is the sheriff going to --
DICK: Charge us.
WAYNE: -- do something about that?
DICK: When are you going to come out of
there? Let's get it done. You put -- if you think
that we -- what we have done is illegal then you file
the, the suits.
WAYNE: I think you're a bunch of perverts,
really.
DICK: Well, you're - once again you're
entitled to your opinion. I certainly wouldn't
question your opinion. You have the right to offer
that. I obviously disagree with it but you have the
right to offer --
WAYNE: Well, you're asking us to surrender
to an agency of the government that had a pervert for
its leader at the time that you were recruited. Now,
come on, Dick, really.
DICK: You think I'm going to sit there --
9 ' 1.
here and engage you in debate about a man that has been
dead since 1973?
WAYNE: He hired you.
DICK: What is your point there? What is
your point?
WAYNE: You met his standards, right? So I'm
supposed to trust you?
DICK: Wayne, you're an attorney. You can
advise those folks inside about the procedures that
need to be followed, that must be followed, and that
will be followed.
WAYNE: I've advised them how you have broken
the constitution over and over again.
DICK: Okay. Again, if that's what you
believe --
WAYNE: Every moment that you deny them
access to the media you are violating their Bill of
Rights.
DICK: Wayne, I'm not going to sit here and
debate you.
WAYNE: Now, I cannot advise those people to
trust you --
DICK: Well -~
WAYNE: - to have confidence in you.
DICK: -~ those people apparently are relying
on you and if you're giving them that type of
I U 1.
information then you're doing them a disservice.
You're doing them a disservice. They had legitimate,
honest questions which they posed to me. I asked them
to talk with you in addition to accepting the
information from me and that you should be able to
provide them that sort of information. Now, if you
have chosen not to or if you've chosen to give them
erroneous information then that is your responsibility,
it is not mine. If they rely on you for the truth and
you give them lies or inaccuracies or untruths, then
that is unfortunate because those people need to rely
on you.
WAYNE: You came out here, you violated the
Fourth Amendment on search and seizure.
DICK: Really?
WAYNE: Really. You're denying them their
First Amendment access to, to --
DICK: You're aware that they had a search
warrant, are you not, and an arrest warrant? Are you
aware of that?
WAYNE: You don't serve a warrant by piling
out of vehicles with your guns blazing.
DICK: Well, if that's what was done then
make that known to the appropriate people and
appropriate courts and appropriate judges and the
appropriate jury.
' ' 15
WAYNE: No, you listen for a second. If
that's what was done, you charge those people, you
investigate those people and you dismiss the charges
DICK: Absolutely.
WAYNE: -- if they -- if they're not founded.
DICK: Well, hold it. You mean, you mean to
tell me that you think that we should file charges
because you say that this was done? If that's the
case, come out and talk to us about it. Go before the
appropriate personnel, before the appropriate
magistrate. Give your testimony and then if the
magistrate finds probable cause he will obviously go
ahead and, and charge the ATF. File your appropriate
affidavits and complaints.
WAYNE: Give Catherine Madison access to the
media.
DICK: Catherine Madison is in protective
custody.
WAYNE: She's already out. Have you
forgotten that?
DICK: That's true, and she's not been
charged.
WAYNE: How come she hasn't had access to the
media?
DICK: I don't know that she hasn't had
access to the media. I don't know what ~-
9 ' 16
WAYNE: Why don't you ask her?
DICK: Because we're trying to deal with this
issue here. This is ~~
WAYNE: Because? What, what kind of answer
is that?
DICK: No, listen, you're, you're trying to
dodge the question. You just asked me about -~
WAYNE: No, I'm asking the question again.
DICK: No, listen.
WAYNE: Why don't you ask her?
DICK: I'm going to answer the ATF question
first.
WAYNE: Don't tell me no.
DICK: You said that --
WAYNE: Tell me yes. Ask her. You got the
phones, you got all of these people working for you,
ask her.
DICK: Wayne, did you ask me a question? I'd
like to respond to the question. You asked me why have
the ATF agents that were involved in the incident on
Sunday not been charged.
WAYNE: I just asked you why Catherine
Madison hasn't been given a press conference.
DICK: Now, hold it, let me answer the first
question first and then I'll go to the second question.
WAYNE: No, you will answer the
O 1,
DICK: That's the way things are normally
done.
WAYNE: - you will answer the question on
Catherine Madison first.
DICK: Listen. I have nothing further to say
to you, Wayne. If you cannot, if you cannot talk with
me and allow me to answer those questions for you then
you and I have nothing more to say to one another.
WAYNE: Who do you want to talk to then?
DICK: I want to talk to David once again so
we can iron out this agreement that we had prior to my
dealing with the third seal.
WAYNE
want to talk to
DICK:
is the one that
WAYNE
DICK:He doesn't
Steve?
No. I need
He doesn't
- David iswant to talk to you. You
to talk to David. David
want to talk to you.
the one that had agreed to
release those children upon completion of this, this
study and this finding of the third seal. We have done
that once again
WAYNE: Have you called the, have you called
the faculty of Baylor yet? I was standing here when he
talked to you.
DICK: All right.
WAYNE: Said, you know, call some experts.
0 9 1.
DICK: There are a number of things that
we're in the process of doing and most of which or some
of which obviously I'm not at liberty to tell you. We
will do what we feel is necessary to do, but what I
want to do is get back to the agreement that we had,
that is David and I, had prior my spending several
hours attempting to research the third seal. He and I
went into the third seal, we talked about it at some
length, both of us reading passages from the Bible and
he trying to help me understand the third seal.
WAYNE: Okay. Well then, you're, you're
accountable for the third seal, you know that? You're
accountable for keeping the truth about the seven seals
from reaching the public right now.
DICK: Wayne, I'll tell -~
WAYNE: Do you know that - what that means?
It means ~-
DICK: - I'll tell you what. You know what?
WAYNE: -- it means, it means that God is
going to hold you responsible.
DICK: That's what David tells me and I will
accept that from David. However, Wayne, you're an
attorney. Let's deal with the area that you have some
expertise in and if you have that expertise please use
it to the advantage of those folks inside, all right?
You apparently are the only attorney in there, they've
0 ' 1.
asked you for advice and you have the responsibility to
give them the advice that they asked of you.
WAYNE: That's not my problem that I'm the
only attorney that they can talk to. That's your
problem. You're the one that cut them off from all the
attorneys out there.
DICK: Listen, let me --
WAYNE: Don't, don't drop that on me. That's
not my problem.
DICK:
straight, okay?
WAYNE
DICK:
WAYNE
DICK:
WAYNE
DICK:
finished?
WAYNE
attitude?
DICK:
WAYNE
DICK:
WAYNEListen, let's you and I get one thing
That's not my problem.
Let's get one thing straight.
Hey, I'm not working for you.
The media --
I'm not working for you, Dick.
The media is available. Are you
Are you going to change your
Wayne --
You need to drop that.
- perhaps --
I'm not the one cutting these people
off from legal advice, you are.
DICK: We're not cutting anyone off from
20
legal advice. The lawyers will be standing in line to
represent you folks.
WAYNE: No, you said right now I'm the only
OI16 .
DICK: Inside. Are you not the only attorney
inside there with the folks there?
WAYNE: Let's not --
DICK: If, if I'm wrong about that --
WAYNE: - let's not tease each other. We
got telephones. Patch one in.
DICK: Put Steve on the line
please?
WAYNE: Put Jerry Spence on.
DICK: I'm not putting Jerry
the one that's talking to you now. If
to talk to me, put Steve on.
WAYNE: Put William Kunstler
DICK: I just told you --
WAYNE: Oh, you're not going
DICK: -- I'm not putting --will you,
Spence on. I'm
you don't choose
O11.
to do it?
William Kunstler
will be one of those standing at the head of the line.
WAYNE: Standing where?
DICK: Waiting to represent you folks.
WAYNE: At the mortuary, right?
DICK: Wayne, you know, perhaps you'd better
put somebody else on, okay? Why don't you put Steve
Q ' 21
on, please?
WAYNE: He wants to talk to you, Steve.
STEVE: Hello, Dick?
DICK: Yeah, Steve, how are you this
afternoon? Listen, I want to let you know that
apparently the repairmen need to do some need to
access some water -- pumping the pumping station up
there at the T intersection. I just wanted to let you
know that they'll be up there and, and conducting some
business up there.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: Please, make sure that there's nothing
that's done that, that, that's of concern to those
folks. They're just doing their job out there, all
right?
STEVE: Well, you know, we haven't done
anything up to this time.
DICK: No, I understand that.
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: I just, I just want to refresh --
STEVE: All right
DICK: - you know, the rules of safety. I
just want to make sure they're clear in both of our
minds. Listen, I'm going to leave you here shortly,
but let me, let me go over one thing with you if you
will.
| 22
STEVE: All right. I'm listening.
DICK: No, I, I took David at his word. I
did quite a little research in, in ~-
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: - on the third seal, all right? A
significant amount, and I did it - took David at his
word that, that he would, would release those children
once we talked about the third seal. And I didn't tell
him that I had all the answers because if, if I did I
certainly wouldn't be here, would I? I didn't have the
answers, I don't have the answers, I don't, I don't say
that I do. I'm not arrogant to suggest that I do have
the answers, I'm not disrespectful. What I did do was
attempt to develop some information so that he and I
could talk together and that I could understand
something more than I, I formerly understood about the
third seal. We did that. And then once again, David
elected to suggest that well, I didn't tell him in the
manner that he found acceptable. That, that shows me
that the man is not a man of his word, he's not the man
of conviction, he's not a man of truth. Through these
past days he tells me he's the man of truth. That's
not truthful to do that, you know? I went through
this --
STEVE: Dick, I'm amazed at do you have
Jesuit training or something?
0 ' 23
DICK: Absolutely not.
STEVE: Do you know what a Jesuit is? It's a
man that spends a lot of years in, in rationalizing,
reasoning, understanding the psychologies of man and
how to debate and deal with them. You get off on - I
was sitting here when he gave you the challenge, Dick,
in honesty I sat here. He wanted you to go whatever
source it took, whether the Papacy, whether a minister,
whether - any kind of a scholar and bring back showing
where that seal is located. It was a challenge for
your own benefit, for your ultimate eternal benefit.
If you can show where that seal is, he is wrong in
everything. People --
DICK: No, listen -~
STEVE: Listen.
DICK: Okay. Go ahead.
STEVE: Listen, honestly, if you could do
that, if you can do it, people will walk out of here so
quickly seeing that he is not the only one that's -~
DICK: I understand that's what he's saying.
STEVE: That is --
DICK: However, my -
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: understanding was that I was to
tell him and discuss what the third seal --
STEVE: That ~-
O 9 24
DICK: -- is; not where it is --
STEVE: - I - DiCk --
DICK: -- but what it is.
STEVE: -- I, I didn't hear that, honestly.
I heard --
DICK: Well, my understanding was to -- that
we were to discuss what it was ~-
STEVE: Do you have a tape that you could --
DICK: -- not where --
STEVE: -- play back, play back of that
conversation?
DICK: -- not where it is.
STEVE: If you play back the conversation of
what you two agreed to -- I heard what he had to say;
obviously I could not hear what you were saying. But I
did hear what he was saying and, and the challenge was
clear because I saw that in your attempt to do so if
you could find someone, I mean, it is the step of all
steps, people would be out of here. It would show me
also that the man is no different than any other
scholar that has an ability to study that book whether
-- no matter what denomination or no religion. If
someone can show where that seal is located in the rest
of the writings of that book, well then there's no need
to be here at all; his challenge is bogus, it's been
foolishness and it's not been a great experience.
Q 9 25
DICK: I'll tell you what. Let's do it this
way. You get together with him, you sit down and write
out that that self same answer. You get together with
David, you put that down on paper in that fashion, you
send it out with some children; we will then do the
research and we will get together at that point. All
right. I want specifically from David that agreement
on paper, all right? I can't accept this any longer
word of mouth, I must have it on paper. You put it on
paper or on tape which you have inside there and you
send it to me, all right? You're telling the, the
people that - you're telling us that he's a man of his
word; we will determine that. You put it down, send it
out with the kids and we'll --
STEVE: Dick -
DICK: and we'll get that resolved.
STEVE: - Dick, aren't you a little bit
concerned about this government and, and the direction
that it's --
DICK: Steve, don't bag the question. I just
asked you to do that.
STEVE: No, no, but I, I listened to attorney
Martin talk to you. I you know, the first thing
that has bothered me more than anything else?
DICK: What's that?
STEVE: Well, just the very issues he brought
I " 26
up to you about our constitutional rights, about the
First and Fourth Amendments. I heard him very clearly
DICK: Really?
STEVE: - talk to you about it. And there
is no question that there is total disregard for those
rights.
DICK: All right. Listen, I told you
yesterday --
STEVE: You --
DICK: ~~ I put in 22 years as an FBI agent
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: I'm perfectly aware of Fourth
Amendment responsibilities, all right? The agents that
were there were there to serve a lawful search warrant
issued by a magistrate -~
STEVE: But you -
DICK: - a federal magistrate.
STEVE: - you forget. I mean, you might
have been - your agency, your experience might have
been positive through the years where you've done
things right. And I've never heard, like I told you
before negative things about. I was an eyewitness also
as to what took place. It was the most shocking,
appalling thing that I've ever seen. And to think that
I 27
such a, a power had that ability or was allowed to do
such a thing, what does it tell the human psyche? What
does it tell any individual? I mean, why even make a
move until we see some response as to an investigation
going on and these men that did such a thing?
DICK: Steve, David challenged me, all right?
Apparently he has it in his own mind that I fell short
of the challenge. I am challenging David and you to
write down the thing that we just talked about which
will set the limits of this, of this agreement.
STEVE: Okay. I am going to
DICK: That is the agreement, to show you the
seals.
STEVE: what I will do all that you've
asked, that which you have requested. I'm going to
talk to him about it.
DICK: You write that down and you send that
out with some children; we will work on it and we will
get it done, if that's what it takes. You put it down.
Is that too much to ask? No, it's certainly not. You
put it down and we'll deal with that issue. I'm going
to let you go. You get to David. You tell him we'll
take it in one form or another.
STEVE: How long will you be
around -- Dick, how long will you be around yet today?
DICK: I'll be here for a while yet.
|, " 2a
STEVE: You will? Okay.
DICK: You get to him, you sit down, you
write this up or you put it on tape. I'm asking you
for one or the, or the other, all right? You send it
out with the children some children. we will then
agree. I will get back to you then or a representative
of, of, of the team here, we'll get back to you. We
will get it straight and we will do this. David says
if we do that he will come out. We will take the man
at his word. I want it on paper. I want it on paper
or on tape.
STEVE: Well, of course, you know, I'm going
to have to ask him about the statements you said he
made --
DICK: Well -
STEVE: about his coming out in regards to
~ he, he said about himself, the group, tell me?
Because I didn't hear.
DICK: All right. You, you get with him --
STEVE: All right.
DICK: and you ask him what it is that he
said, okay? You tell him that Dick has issued the
challenge to him and I expect him to accept that
challenge, I expect him to sit down and do that,
because that's what he tells me that he will do and
that's, that's his counterproposal to these things that
9 ' .9
we have offered; he has come to us with this suggestion
and we're willing to work on it. I will get back to
you; you get to David and, and you tell me what your
response to that is.
STEVE: How much time is it that you want?
DICK: Well, it doesn't -- shouldn't take but
a few minutes.
STEVE: Well, just tell me so I can plan on
being back at the phone here.
DICK: Okay. It's 4:30. I'll be back to you
at 5 o'clock.
STEVE: Sounds good.
DICK: Very well.
STEVE: Talk to you then.
DICK: Goodbye.
STEVE: Bye.
it * wk * 7%
STEVE: Hello?
DICK: Steve? Dick.
STEVE: Yeah.
DICK: Did you get ahold of David?
STEVE: He's right here.
DICK: All right. Let me speak with him,
please.
STEVE: Okay. Just a moment.
Pause!
9 9 3.
STEVE: Me first? Okay. He said talk to me
first. He's trying to finish his meal right now. He's
just eating here, finishing up here.
DICK: All right. Did you propose to him
what I suggested?
STEVE: YeS, I did.
DICK: What was his response?
STEVE: He hasn't given me one.
DICK: All right. well, perhaps he wants to
give it directly to me.
STEVE: Apparently so.
DICK: Good. I'll, I'll wait here until he
finishes his meal and, and we'll get it down on, on
paper or tape and --
STEVE: Okay.
DICK: - we'll move on.
STEVE: Shall I I'll tell you what. As
soon as he's done, or as soon as he's done eating his
meal there I'll call you back then.
DICK: All right. Call me right back.
STEVE: Okay, and David's telling me right
now he wants to send some pictures out to you.
DICK: That's fine. we'll, we'll be happy
to.
STEVE: That's fine.
DICK: We'll be happy to. You can send them
9 9 .1
out with the kids.
STEVE: Did you want to still talk to some of
the women or the babies?
DICK: Certainly, we'll be happy to.
STEVE: He said certainly, he'll be happy to.
DICK: I'll talk with them until David
finishes his meal.
STEVE: All right.
DICK: It's my understanding he's going to
send you some pictures with some kids?
STEVE: Apparently so. I - I don't know
about the kids. Ask him or them. I mean, I don't know
that. Okay. Do you want to talk to him? Do you want
to talk to him? I've got someone just smiling at me.
They act like they don't want to, but here they are.
Go ahead. He's
DICK:
STEVE.
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:Tell them I don't bite, I don't bite.
I, I -- go ahead.
Hello?
Hello?
who's this?
Julie.
Julie, how are you?
Okay.
Listen, I know you have some questions
and some concerns and you may be somewhat reluctant to,
9 ' 3:
to ask me. Please don't, don't hesitate. I'll be able
to answer questions for you. Do you have children in
there?
JULIE: Yes.
DICK: How many children do you have?
JULIE: Five.
DICK: Five children? what are their names,
Julie, and what is your last name?
JULIE: well, I'm Mexican.
DICK: Pardon me?
JULIE: I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm Mexican.
DICK: All right. Well, what's your last
name?
JULIE: Huh?
DICK: What's your last name?
JULIE: Martinez.
DICK: Martinez?
JULIE: Um-hum.
DICK: All right, and what are the names of
your children and how old are they?
JULIE: Just a minute.
Pause!
JULIE: we'll send some pictures out with
their ages.
DICK: Okay. You going to send the kids out
with some pictures? Is that --
JULIE
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:
other two?
JULIE
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:
old?
JULIE
going to be sending out
DICK:
Audry, Abbey and Joseph" 33
NO.
- is that Audry, Abbey and Joseph?
Yeah.
That's three of them? who are the
It's Crystal.
Crista? And who old is Crista?
Crystal.
Crystal, I'm sorry. Crystal is how
Well, they said, you know, we're
some pictures.
Okay. with the kids, with, with
and Crystal? You're sending
them out with the pictures?
JULIE: No. we'll send a picture of them.
DICK: Oh, okay. And what, what, what's the
name of your other child?
JULIE: Isaiah.
DICK: I'm sorry? Josea?
JULIE: Isaiah.
DICK: Isaiah. Okay How old is Crystal?
JULIE: Well, they're going to put their age
on the picture.
DICK: Okay. So you have pictures of the
children that you're sending out?
JULIE: Yeah.34
DICK: All right, and you're sending out
pictures of other children as well?
JULIE: I suppose so.
DICK: Okay. Do you want to come out with
your children?
JULIE: Well, not at the time, no.
DICK: Well, David has given me his assurance
that you're, that you're able to leave just by telling
him that. So please, if, if you feel more comfortable
leaving with your children I'm sure David will
understand that and, and he'll welcome and allow you to
do that.
JULIE: Well, if I go out all you guys are
going to do is put me in prison.
DICK: No, that's not true at all. That's
not true at all. Not, not everybody is going to be
charged. Not everybody was involved in the shooting,
and in addition to that, you may
defense defense anyway because I
there are convinced that the ATF
and if --
JULIE: Yeah, well, my
the room right above the door --
DICK: Sure.well
know
came
IOOIHhave a self-
the fellows in
up there shooting
was - my room is
JULIE: -- and my - you know, I'm surprised,
iQ ' 35
you know, we're still alive.
DICK: How old is Crystal?
JULIE: Three.
DICK: Okay, and Isaiah?
JULIE: Well --
DICK: Young, younger than Crystal?
JULIE: N0.
DICK: Little older than Crystal?
JULIE: Yeah.
DICK: Okay. Well, listen, you know, I, I
know what that you -~ you know, you have to report
what you saw. Okay. I wasn't there, others were not
there in the same room with you. If you are in a room
with bullets coming through the walls and that sort of
thing then you have to let the authorities know.
JULIE: I just barely had time to, to get my
children and duck to the floor, you know --
DICK: Okay.
JULIE: drop down to the floor.
DICK: Well, then you need to report that,
you need to report that to ensure that it never happens
again. And a way for you to do that and, and at the
same time to provide the care and love that your
children need is to come on out with them.
JULIE: Well --
DICK: Do you have some questions for me? I
*I ", 36
know you're concerned about going to jail, but I'm
telling you that not everybody is going to go to jail.
Look how many people are in there. You think that all
of you are going to jail? See, that's just not
accurate.
JULIE: Yeah, but I mean, you know --
DICK: I know this is a scary thing for you
because you've not been through anything like this.
None of us have. None of us have been through this.
But I know there are some questions that you probably
want to ask that, that I can, that I can clear up for
you. I hope David or, or Wayne didn't tell you that
you were all going to jail because that's just
absolutely --
JULIE: No, they didn't.
DICK: Okay. Well, that's not true and, and
that's just not accurate. What we're going --
JULIE: David -- you know, David tells us
that if we want to go - he told me that I -- if, if I
wanted --
DICK: Okay.
JULIE: to go I could go.
DICK: well then, if you want to go ahead.
You know, if you don't want to I'm not - obviously I
can't force you to leave and if, if you --
JULIE: I just don't -- you know, I'm not --
0 9 .7
DICK: Do you want to send the kids out then
and you stay and send the kids out?
JULIE: I don't know what you guys are doing
to our kids.
DICK: Okay. Well, let me explain that to
you. I can answer that for you. All the kids are
together and they're being cared for awaiting the
return of their parents.
JULIE: But I'm hearing a lot of things on
the radio.
DICK: Yeah, but what you're hearing -- what
are you hearing that you're concerned about?
JULIE: The what?
DICK: What, what are you hearing that you're
worried about?
JULIE: Well, that,
are all - that they're,
mind and that, you know, just
behaved that they're, they're
are they being treated -~
DICK: Well, I hope
JULIE: -- are they
know, there's something wrongyou know, how the kids
you know, messed up in their
because they're well
not normal and, you know,
that's not accurate.
being treated like, you
with them?
DICK: Absolutely not.
JULIE: N0?
DICK: You know, no one that I am aware of
. ' as
will ever mistreat a child. You know, some --
JULIE: Well, they did here. They came and
shot at us when we - they knew that we had a lot of
children here.
DICK: well, that's -- if that's what you
believe happened then that's what you need to tell the
courts, you need to tell the newspapers, you need to
tell the TV people, you need to tell everyone that.
You as a parent must tell people that. It's very
important that you do so it won't happen to somebody
else or somebody else's children. Please do that. we,
we welcome that. ATF will tell their side of the story
so it's absolutely essential that you tell your side.
But if nobody comes out then that can't be done. So
how are people going to come up with answers if they
don't know what happened?
JULIE: I don't know.
DICK: Well, you need to start thinking about
it.
JULIE: Well ~-
DICK: That's, that's what you have to do.
You have the responsibility as a parent to care for
your children and provide the children with love and
affection and care and you can't do it while they're in
there under these conditions.
JULIE: I don't know what to do. I don't --
" I, 39
DICK: Well, I can tell you what to do.
JULIE: I want to talk to my brother.
DICK: well, you'll be able to talk to your
brother.
JULIE
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:
number?
JULIE
Arizona.
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:
JULIE
DICK:Give me your brother's name.
His name is Joe Santoyo.
Joe?
Yeah.
Santoyo?
Santoyo, SA-N-T-O~YO.
All right. what's his telephone
Just a minute. He lives in, in Mesa,
All right.
And it's Area Code 02! --
eoz! --
464--
-- 464--
- 4325.
-- 4325. All right. 1 can tell by
talking to you that you would feel very much more
comfortable if you send your children out. Tell David
you'd like to send the children out with the pictures
that he's going to send --
JULIE: I, I ~-
DICK: Listen, send them out. I know you
O 9 4.
want to send your children out. I can hear it in your
voice and I understand that. You're concerned about
your children as good mothers are. I know you want to
leave. I know you want to send your kids out. Please
send your children out. David will let you send
come out. David has repeated that you're all free to
go and that if you stay it's your choice, so please let
it be that if you, if you choose to stay. But your
children are not old enough to make those decisions.
Send them out.
JULIE: They don't want to go.
DICK: Well, listen, come on, please --
JULIE: They, they said they don't want, you
know --
DICK: That. -
JULIE: -- that, that they want to be with
me.
DICK: Well, you come out with them. You
come out with them. There's no reason you can't --
JULIE: If, if, if I go out I mean, you know,
being here is the only way that we could be together.
If I go out you guys are going to separate us.
DICK: Listen. I've sent photographs in,
I've sent tapes in.
JULIE: But you won't let, you won't let me
be with my children if I go out.
0 41
DICK: Well -
JULIE: They'll put my in jail and they'll
take them away.
DICK: The two ladies that left did not -~
they're, they're ~ protective custody for a short
while but you'll be reunited with your children. It's
your you know, it's your responsibility to make
decisions for those kids until they're old enough to do
that. They are certainly not old enough to do that
now, are they? Do you think your children are old
enough to make those kinds of decisions now? They're
not. You know that. I know I can tell you're a
caring parent just talking to you. I, I know it's,
it's, it's rough, but David has assured us that you're
free to go and you're certainly free to send your
children out. Please, as a parent send your child out
send your children out. They'll be well cared for.
We have your brother Joe's name. We'll be in touch
with Joe. We'll provide all the care and custody for
the children.
JULIE: I want to talk to my brother.
DICK: Well, you can talk to your brother as
soon as you come out, but right now send the children
out. I will call your brother and explain that while
you would like to come out you'll send the children out
immediately and that you want to ensure that he knows
Q ' .2
that the kids are here and that you're going to be
reunited with the kids as soon as possible but in the
meantime to please ensure that he knows that the kids
are being cared for properly and --
JULIE: I just - I don't know. I know every
time I had a problem or decision to make I always talk
to my brother.
DICK: Well, you'll, you'll be able to talk
to your brother.
JULIE: Well, I need to talk to him now.
DICK: I will talk to your brother for you
until, you know, such time as you come out. But send
the kids out. I'll talk to your brother and I'll make
sure that he watches over the kids until you get out.
I'll explain to him that you've asked me to ensure that
he watches out for your kids on a temporary basis until
such time as you can get together with the kids again.
Tell David that you'd like to send your children out
with these pictures. David will allow you that. David
has given me his word as a gentleman and as, as an
honorable man that, that you're free to go and that
you're free to send the children out if you ~- should
you decide to stay behind. Make the right decision.
Make the right decision.
JULIE: Well, that's why I need to talk to my
brother. I
Q . .3
DICK: I will talk to your brother. You
JULIE: No, but I need to talk to him.
DICK: You can talk to him as soon as you
come out.
JULIE: No, but that's why I need to talk to
him before I do.
DICK: It's your choice, all right? You can
stay or you can go. You can allow your children to go.
The children as David suggested are innocent, they have
no part of this thing. You as a parent have the
ability to say get your coats on and on and go out the
door. Now, if you don't do that then it's your
responsibility, not mine, not anybody else's but yours.
You have the decision, you have the responsibility,
you're a parent, you've given birth to those children
and you must make those decisions, the right decisions,
for those kids until they're old enough to make their
own. You have to do it. I know that you want to do
that because you're a loving parent. Tell David that
you want to send the children out and that you can send
those children out with whatever photos David wants to
send out. I know you want to do that. Don't be
afraid. You tell David that you've made a decision and
that you want to send the children out. You go do --
tell him that right now while I'm talking to you on the
phone. You leave and I'll, I'll keep the phone open.
You go
You go
I make
Let's,
it andO i 44
tell David you want to send the children out.
do that right now, please.
JULIE: I need to talk to the children before
any decision.
DICK: Okay. You well, let's do it now.
let's, let's do it now. I know you want to do
you've made the decision.
JULIE: I haven't.
DICK: I know you've made the decision. It's
in -- I know, I can tell by talking to you you want to
do the
thing.right thing, you need to do the right thing.
JULIE: well, we all want to do the right
DICK: You can't live with yourself if you
don't do the right thing. You need to do the right
thing and you know what that thing is that right
thing is. I know you've, you've considered this,
you've prayed about this and you know it's the right
thing to do. Please. You go tell David that you want
to send your kids out and you give the kids a message
for your, for your brother which I will assure you that
will be delivered to your brother.
JULIE: Well, the kids aren't being taken to
the places where they were supposed to go.
DICK: Listen, we were asked by the folks
there to keep the kids together as long as we can and
b 45
we've done that, we will continue to do that.
JULIE: No, when they first went out they
were supposed to go with --
DICK: what do you mean first? These kids
have been out for several days, they've been out for
several days. They're being well cared for. They're
clean, they're well fed and they're playing together
with one another, with their friends and that'll
continue to happen. You have to make sure that your
kids are part of that. You've got to take the
responsibility to do that. I know you want to, don't
you? Don't you want to make sure that your kids are
safely cared for? Do you want to do that? I know you
do. I know you do. You tell David that you want your
children to leave, all right? You go do that right
now. You're relieving yourself of pressure. You --
the kids come out and I know you - the weight of the
world is going to be off your shoulders because you
know your kids will be safe and well cared for, and
we'll call your brother. I'll assure you that your
brother will, will watch to make sure those kids are
cared for properly temporarily until you come out and
that you're reunited with the kids. Now, you go tell
David right now. I'll hold the phone. You go tell
David that you want to send the kids out with the
pictures. Will you do that for me?
9 . .6
JULIE: Umhum.
DICK: Give the phone to the next person. I
will talk to them while you go tell David that you want
to come out, okay?
JULIE: Okay.
DICK: All right.
Pause!
Indiscernible voices in the background.!
KATHY: Steve?
STEVE: Yes.
KATHY: Can I talk to him?
STEVE: Sure.
KATHY: Hello, Dick?
DICK: Yes.
KATHY: Hi, it's Cathy.
DICK: Cathy, how are you this afternoon?
KATHY: Pretty good.
DICK: Good. What can I, what can I do for
you?
KATHY: Couple things I just wanted to check
on. Whether or not you've notified Mike's family.
DICK: I gave, I gave that request to, to
others. Of course, I'm here speaking with you folks so
I'm not able to do everything myself.
KATHY: Right.
DICK: But yes, I passed that on and --
KATHY
it's been done?
DICK:
of --
KATHY
DICK:
KATHY
done.47
Can you find out for me if it, if
It will be done. There are a number
Well, I --
-~ there are --
-~ I'd like to know when it has been
DICK: All right. Well, I'll get try to
get you that information just as soon as I'm able to.
KATHY
to my children?
third birthday.
DICK:
KATHY
DICK:
KATHY
DICK:
KATHY
DICK:And could you also pass on a message
Today happens to be my youngest son's
I know you miss
Sure I do, and
No question.
And I love him
Well, let's get
I'd love that,
All you have tohim, don't you?
he misses me.
and he loves me.
you back together.
you know ~-
do is open a door.
Open the door and walk up the road. It'll be the
first step's the hardest but it's a very short walk.
KATHY: And, and I'm sure you, you really are
honest and you think that way, but you just don't
understand all the complications of this government
obviously.
40 9 .8
DICK: But you do, Cathy? Let's share those
concerns then. What is your concern about you
leaving ~-
KATHY: David has already told you that.
DICK: Okay, but don't I don't want to
talk about what David has said. You ask me questions
that you want answers for and I'll provide them to you.
KATHY: I didn't, I, I didn't ask you any
questions. I'm just telling you --
DICK: No, but I say if you have concerns ask
me and I'll, I'll, I'll try to explain them to you to
your satisfaction.
KATHY: I don't have any questions. My, my,
my point that I just made was you said all I have to do
is walk out the gate and you think it's that simple.
Maybe you do. Maybe you really think that's all there
is to it. Maybe you're just saying that because you're
a negotiator and that's your job.
DICK: Well -
KATHY: I'm saying it's --
DICK: that's not the case.
V KATHY: -- not that simple. I know that it's
not that simple and you should know.
DICK: David told me that it was that simple.
He said all you have to do is indicate an interest in
leaving and you can go. I mean it's that simple.
EO Q .9
KATHY:
could.
DICK:
KATHY:
that I wanted to
DICK:
make decisions?
KATHY:
decisions.
DICK:
KATHY:
DICK:
KATHY:
do.
DICK:
KATHY:
for 6,000 years,
DICK:
KATHY:Oh, I'm sure I could, I'm sure I
David's indicated that.
I could walk out that gate any moment
Has David made it difficult for you to
I am 30 years old. I can make my own
All right.
Okay?
Let's make it then.
I -- David does not tell me what to
All right.
He tells me what the Bible has taught
okay? It's been in print for ages.
Umhum.
And all he is doing is making it
public. Just give him the chance to make it public and
the whole world will know. That's all.
DICK: Cathy, I want to tell you one more
time that that is his choice. It's, it's available,
that forum is available anytime that he wishes to make
use of it. It will be here, it is here and, and it's
up to him to do it. But sometimes it's difficult to
Q ' 5.
take that first step, to do that first thing and that's
what he has to, that's what he has to do.
KATHY: And sometimes it's difficult for you
to get us six gallons of milk too.
DICK: The milk is available, has been
available all day and --
KATHY: Well, where is it?
DICK: It's, it's right up here with -- in
close proximity. We can make that available. I told
David that this morning.
KATHY: Is it at our front gate?
DICK: No, it isn't at your front gate. It
will be there as soon as you head the kids up the, up
the, the walkway the milk will be there.
KATHY: If we give you the kids what do we
need the milk for?
DICK: Well, you have more than several
children there do you not?
KATHY: If one of our babies --
DICK: I said four children.
KATHY: -- gets sick and dies because of your
negligence --
DICK: Hold it, hold -- Cathy, Cathy, am I
their parent? Am I their parent?
KATHY: Hey, we requested it, you said you'd
bring it. '
l ' .1
DICK: And I, and I continue to say that.
KATHY: You have already promised you would
bring it and you have not done so.
DICK: I will. I told you it's available.
KATHY: Why wasn't it here yesterday?
DICK: It's available today.
KATHY: well, put it at our front gate.
DICK: Certainly, I'll be happy to. Send the
four kids walking up the road and it'll be there.
KATHY: Why? Why? You have the kids. we
have already given you 21 kids. we didn't get any milk
then.
DICK: David tells me that the children are
innocent. We will all agree to that. The children are
not old enough to make their own decisions.
KATHY: The milk was supposed to be arrived
when Mark left.
DICK: Cathy --
KATHY: Since Mark left --
DICK: the milk
KATHY: Kevin has left and also Heather.
So you want more of our kids just for six gallons of
milk?
DICK: I told David, I told Steve and I, I'm
telling you now that the milk is available.
KATHY: when we give more kids. We're going
'., |' 52
to give more kids and you're still not going to give
the milk.
DICK: Really? Well, then ~~
KATHY: Really.
DICK: - I'll tell you, I'll - we'll have
the milk put out there. You walk with the children up
there and you can go up and pick up the milk and you
don't have to leave until the milk is there.
KATHY: Okay. So you --
DICK: Okay?
KATHY: -~ put the milk there --
DICK: Okay.
KATHY: - I'll go up and get the milk --
DICK: with the children.
KATHY: - I'll take, I'll take one child
with me and I'll bring that child back here.
End Of TAPE #82!
92
92
92
iU.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #83
3/7/93
5:50 P.M. 6:27 P.M.
92
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KATHRYN SCHROEDER: if I don't need it
anymore.
DICK SWENSEN: No, that's not what I'm
telling you.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If you get the kids, what
do we need the milk for? You get my point? You don't
make any sense, Dick.
DICK SWENSEN: I've asked, I've asked for
four children. I know there are considerably more than
that there.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, what about the 21
we've already given you? Doesn't that count for
anything?
DICK SWENSEN: What about the remaining 19?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: what about the ones we've
already given you? The ones that are out there don't
even want to be out there.
DICK SWENSEN: Really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Really?
DICK SWENSEN: Oh. Why is it that they left?
why is it that their parents sent them out?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Because their parents
felt that at the time that was needed to be done.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And --
DICK SWENSEN: What's changed their mind?
O O 3
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: you agreed - nobody's
changed their mind. It's just that - come on. You
talked to Melissa.
DICK SWENSEN: Um-hum.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: She'll go. But She
doesn't want to. My children didn't want to leave.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, send Melissa out then.
Pause.!
DICK SWENSEN: The milk's available, Kathy.
You have to make that decision amongst yourself, okay?
KATHRYN SCI:-IROEDER: DiCk, Dick, you don't
make any sense.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, then, maybe, maybe --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Why do you say --
DICK SWENSEN: - you're wasting your time
talking to me, Kathy, if I don't make sense.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: why do you say, why do
you say the milk's available, we have to make that
decision? Why do you keep saying that?
DICK SWENSEN: Because you're in the position
to make that decision. I am not.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I have made the decision.
DICK SWENSEN: I'm not.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Give us the milk. We've
already given you 21 kids.
DICK SWENSEN: I can only provide it to you,
O O 4
I can only provide it to you --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If we send out four more
kids. That doesn't make any sense.
DICK SWENSEN: Listen. I'll, I'll get the
milk to you for two kids.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You get the milk to me
for the two kids that went out Friday.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, perhaps we're wasting
one another's time. All right? Put somebody else on.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I mean, all you want, all
you want to do is bargain?
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy!
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Are you going to bargain
with human lives?
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy! I've told you what
we'll do and, and if that's not agreeable to you,
perhaps we're wasting one another's time. All right?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Look
DICK SWENSEN: Why don't you put somebody
else on, please?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Look, Dick. There are
babies here that need the milk. Are you that inhumane
that you can't just send us the milk for not sending
out kids, or sending out David, or sending out women.
DICK SWENSEN: Our concern, our concern is
for those children first and foremost and the rest of
O O 5
you also. All right? The children --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: So, your concern is that
these babies get fed the milk they need?
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It doesn't sound like
you're concerned, Dick.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, you don't want to
listen to me. Okay?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And you don't -
DICK SWENSEN: So why don't you put somebody
else on, because obviously you're not listening to what
I have to say.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: DiCk --
DICK SWENSEN: I'll be happy to talk with
you --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Say it again, then.
DICK SWENSEN: - if you want to use reason.
Okay?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'll listen CO it again.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay. The agreement that I
tried to get David to commit to was to send the kids
once we drop the milk up there. All right? Send the
kids and an adult to pick the milk up and send the
children out. That's the agreement. I went into my
boss and he said we will do it under these conditions.
We have attempted to, to work with you folks and we
I C 6
will continue to do so, but we have to, we have to
share in this responsibility. You have to take some
responsibility, we have to take some responsibility.
There's a give and a take, concessions have to be made
by both sides and we're willing to do this. Send the
children out, the milk will be there.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You are willing to do
this --
DICK SWENSEN: what part of that don't you
understand, Kathy?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. Your word willing
to. That's the part that I don't understand. You're
willing to do a lot of stuff, but you have not done
what you are willing to do.
DICK SWENSEN: Simply walk out the door and
the milk will be there.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Oh, come On, Dick. If we
wanted to walk out this door, don't you think we would
have done that days ago?
DICK SWENSEN: I'm suggesting to you that you
can verify that the milk is there. We will have the
milk dropped off. Do you want me to tell them to drop
the milk off now, that you're sending the kids out?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Tell them to drop the
milk off right now --
DICK SWENSEN: No. You're, you're only
O I ,
hearing --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: and I will go out
there, myself, Kathy, and I will get it.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, you're only hearing
half of what I said. The other half is ~~
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm --
DICK SWENSEN: The other half is, it's
necessary to get the children out.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: YOU told me that.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay then. If, if you don't
agree to that then you and I don't have anything else
to say to one another right now.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And my, my statement to
you that you're inhumane is, is, is unimportant?
DICK SWENSEN: If that's your opinion, you're
welcome to that opinion.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: If, if I don't - DiCk,
what I'm saying is you're saying that we don't have
anything to say to each other because I do not agree
with your stipulations. That's it's like who's
controlling whose mind here? Dave is not controlling
my mind. You're trying to control my mind.
DICK SWENSEN: I'm not trying to control
anything.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You are -
DICK SWENSEN: You said you want the milk.
O O 8
I'm willing to give you the milk.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. Give me the milk
then.
DICK SWENSEN: You send the children and
that's agreeable. It's a done deal. It's already
there. We'll do it. We'll do it. I'm happy to do it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No you won't do it --
DICK SWENSEN: I told you that early this
morning.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You Won't. Even if I
sent all the kids out you wouldn't.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, why don't you try --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You failed --
DICK SWENSEN: Why don't you try me?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: - so many times.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay. Listen, Kathy, you're
really -- I know you're upset and that's fine. Why
don't you give it some consideration and if you want to
talk, reason, then we -- you and I will talk together,
but really it's, it's, it's no reason for us to go on
now, because --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Because I won't --
DICK SWENSEN: -- you won't accept --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Because I won't accept
your conditions. But you won't accept ours either.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, we have to meet and, and
O O 9
I'm willing to bring the milk out.
KATHRYN SCI-IROEDER: Okay. We --
DICK SWENSEN: What are you willing to do to
get the milk? That's the question. What are you
willing to do?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm willing to, myself,
walk out that gate and be shot by your Bradleys if I
have to and I'll go get that milk.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, you're not going to be
shot by any Bradleys. We discussed --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I, I know that.
DICK SWENSEN: - the rules of safety the
other day. Okay?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I know that.
DICK SWENSEN: At length and you understand
them, do you not?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yes, I know that.
DICK SWENSEN: Okay. You understand the
rules of safety. It's very clear to you and to the
others in there what the rules of safety are. So let's
deal with the issue of the milk. The milk will be
placed there. You send out the kids, you pick up the
milk, you return to the compound ~
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What did you give us when
I sent out Scott and Chrissie?
DICK SWENSEN: Listen. Would you like a list
9 9 10
of the things that we've tried to, tried to comply
with?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Not tried. I mean done.
What have you done. What did you do for me --
DICK SWENSEN: would you like to listen to
the things we've done? For you individually?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, I asked you a
question. Can you please just answer it?
DICK SWENSEN: What have I done for you?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What have you done for
me, for Scott and Chrissie?
DICK SWENSEN: We have provided care for
those children and will continue --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: NO. What --
DICK SWENSEN: - to do that on a daily
basis.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- have you done for the
people that are still in here in exchange --
DICK SWENSEN: We've offered you --
KATHRYN SCI-IROEDER: - for Scott and
Chrissie?
DICK SWENSEN: we've offered you the choice.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: To come out.
DICK SWENSEN: It's your choice. The choice
to come out --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's not an offer,
Q I ll
Dick. That's --
DICK SWENSEN: Then you stay in. That's up
to you. That's up to you.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
DICK SWENSEN: That's your choice.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: So what you're saying is
all the children that we sent out earlier, we don't get
anything for that.
DICK SWENSEN: You have gotten any number of
things and we've offered to give you a number of other
things. The first thing that we gave you David's
early condition was that if you allowed him to
communicate -- if we allowed him to communicate
nationally, on television, that he and all the rest of
you would come out. That's a, that's the early effort
that we made. David did not respond to that. We are
offering you all safe passage out of there, humane
treatment, and treatment ~
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Humane treatment. No
milk for the babies. That's what you call humane
treatment?
DICK SWENSEN: You can have people there to
meet you coming out so that you are can be assured
that you will not be mistreated if that's a, if that's
a consideration. It's, it's, it's not going to happen
that you're going to be mistreated, but if you think
I I ,2
that you are, we'll get people of your choice --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, do you have any
children?
DICK SWENSEN: Pardon me?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Do you have any children?
DICK SWENSEN: Yes, I do have children.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Do you have any babies?
DICK SWENSEN: No longer.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
DICK SWENSEN: My
KATHRYN SCHROEDER:
has any children that are babies?How old is your youngest?
youngest is 14 years old.
Do you know anyone that
DICK SWENSEN: Yes. I know people that have
babies. I know a lot of people that have babies.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: would you please pass the
message on to them that if they don't have the decency
to give our babies milk, then they're --
DICK SWENSEN: N0.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- going to get the milk
taken away from their babies.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: That's up to GOG
DICK SWENSEN: The baby getting milk
responsibility of you and the other parents in
If you decide that you don't want them to have
milk, then that is a decision that you make asis the
there.
the
adults
i
92
!and
the
the
You
you
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as parents.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: We -- n0, Dick, that's
decision you made. We asked for the milk, you tell
public that you're giving us all our demands.
re wrong.
DICK SWENSEN: We didn't say we were giving
all your demands. We said we were trying to meet
halfway.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You have told, you have
told the public that you are caring for us and taking
care of what we've asked for. we have asked for just
six gallons of milk. We have not --
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: -- asked you for
anything --
DICK SWENSEN: I think I've told you what our
conditions are. Okay? If you don't choose to accept
them, that is your --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Then you are inhumane.
DICK SWENSEN: -- that's your responsibility.
You can, you can call me whatever you want. That won't
change the fact --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: So you don't care about
the babies.
DICK SWENSEN: -- that you're making the
decisions. Kathy, you're making the decision.
O O 14
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You don't care.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, certainly I care about
the babies.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: NO you don't.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, there's no long --
there's no use in you and I going on like this, is
there?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Then why are we on this
phone to begin with. Why aren't we talking to the
reporters that will tell the world that you won't give
us six gallons of milk.
DICK SWENSEN: Put Julie Martinez on, please.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You don't want that
inhumanity known to the world, do you?
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, put Julie back on,
please.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Julie's gone.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, put her back on.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You upset her already.
DICK SWENSEN: Oh really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Yes.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, that's, that's -- I
don't believe is accurate at all.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Oh. You won't let her
talk to her family and you don't think she's not upset?
DICK SWENSEN: Do you have something more to
say, Kathy?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'd like to talk to
somebody besides you. How's that?
DICK SWENSEN: Well, I'm here now. John will
be on later this evening if you care to talk with him
later. I'll, I'll ask him to, to set some time aside
for you. Will that, will that -- is that good? Put
David on, please.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: David doesn't want to
talk to you.
DICK SWENSEN: well ask David if he's going
to accept my challenge.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He said Psalms 139 is for
you.
DICK SWENSEN: I've offered a challenge to
David --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: l 3 7 .
DICK SWENSEN: the same way he's offered
to me earlier today. I'm offering that challenge to
him and apparently he's, he's not up to it. Is that,
is that what I'm hearing? He's not up to it?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What, what challenge?
DICK SWENSEN: The challenge was for David to
put into writing or on tape -
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: It's not that simple.
we've tried to deal with tapes in the past.
U O 1.
DICK SWENSEN: Well, listen. Let me, let me
explain to you. Perhaps you weren't aware of what went
on earlier today. David suggested earlier to me that
he agreed to send children out of the compound - in
fact David brought it up. I didn't offer this,
David ~-
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Right.
DICK SWENSEN: Nor did I suggest it. David
suggested that if we could tell him and discuss the
third seal, that he would release the children. I
spent approximately two, two and a half hours probably
discussing the third seal at length and then David
says, you know, Dick? You didn't do that right. You
failed my test. And as a consequence the kids aren't
leaving.
So I suggested to David that that was not my
understanding of this agreement, so I'm issuing him the
same challenge. I apparently failed his challenge.
I'm offering him a challenge, that is, to put onto tape
or write in, in an appropriate form, what he wanted to
discuss concerning the seals.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay. If he reveals the
third seal to you, what is the rest of your bargain?
DICK SWENSEN: It's David's bargain. I, I
complied with his bargain.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: No what was the other
92
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half?
DICK SWENSEN: My suggestion is, my challenge
is for him to write up a document ~-
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And you will do What?
DICK SWENSEN: Or, or -- listen to me. Or on
tape, put down what he requests from us with reference
to the explanation of those seals. And what he will do
if we're able to tell him what the seals are. Now, I
tried to discuss with him with
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He's already given you
that.
DICK SWENSEN: well, that's the third seal.
But he wanted me to go to get some scholars, some
Biblical scholars or some other people that have some
knowledge of the seals and other issues of a similar
nature --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And did you do that?
DICK SWENSEN: Well, I'm willing to do that
if David will put down what he wants done. Because I'm
not going to talk to him again without some sort of a
written agreement, some sort of contract, because he
just doesn't seem to want to comply with his agreement.
So if he puts it down --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Just because you didn't
know the third seal you think he doesn't want to comply
with his agreement?
U I 18
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, listen. You're not
listening to me. All right? It wasn't as if I knew
the seal. It was that if I would research it and try
to come up with some thoughts concerning the third seal
and we would discuss it. We did that. We did research
it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And did you listen to
him?
DICK SWENSEN: Pardon me?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Did you listen to him?
DICK SWENSEN: Not only did I listen to him,
I read passages from the Bible with him. I listened to
him explain to me his beliefs concerning the, the --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And what's the
conclusion?
DICK SWENSEN: Well, the conclusion is that
David reneged on our, on our deal. So I want a written
contract --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: What's your conclusion
about the seal?
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, that is not what we're
talking about here. All right? What we are talking
about is an --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: DiCk.
DICK SWENSEN: -- agreement between --
KATHRYN SCI-IROEDER: DiCk.
9 Q .9
DICK SWENSEN: David and myself.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, was --
DICK SWENSEN: Put David on, please.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: was the third seal in
Hosea? Did you see that?
DICK SWENSEN: That's what David tells me and
I saw that after he explained that, but that --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You saw that.
DICK SWENSEN: that wasn't the agreement.
The agreement was that we discuss it. And I told David
that I'm not knowledgeable about the seals. I, I was
willing to learn. I was willing to do some research.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
DICK SWENSEN: which was done.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: when you researched it,
did you tell him the third seal was in Hosea?
DICK SWENSEN: That wasn't what he asked me
to tell him. He told me he asked me what the third
seal was and to discuss it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And you didn't - you
were unable to tell him.
DICK SWENSEN: Not, not where it was, but
what it was.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Did you tell him what the
third seal was?
DICK SWENSEN: Yes. we discussed it at
. ' 20
length. We discussed the seal at length.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And, and you knew What
the third seal was?
DICK SWENSEN: I had an explanation and he
may not have agreed with it, but I did research it.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You had an explanation.
was it the right one, Dick?
DICK SWENSEN: According to some of the
reference we did, yes. But David disagreed with that,
okay?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: NOW, DiCk, compare.
Compare the references that you've got. Compare the --
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Just wait a minute,
please. Compare the research that you did and what you
found out and what David showed you on the third seal.
which one was right? which one was Biblical?
DICK SWENSEN: David's explanation was that
his was and I'm not going to refute that, because I'm
not a Bible scholar.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: David's explanation was
Biblical, straight from the Bible --
DICK SWENSEN: Fine. I'm not disagreeing.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Okay.
DICK SWENSEN: I'm not disagreeing at all.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: He didn't renege on his
U O 2.
deal.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, listen. You and I
aren't going to come to any agreement here. Put David
on, please.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: David is tired.
DICK SWENSEN: David is tired. That's
David's age old answer when, when I issue him a
challenge he's too tired?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Hey, Dick, you don't want
to talk to me. Maybe he doesn't want to talk to you.
DICK SWENSEN: That's fine. I'm - issued ~
I took up his challenge, he doesn't want to take up my
challenge.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: All right. All right.
I'm make you, I'll make you a deal. I'll make you a
deal. You get us a different negotiator. Okay?
DICK SWENSEN: You'll have one very soon.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: And you not your night
shift. I don't mean - you don't come back tomorrow.
Okay? You get us a negotiator that's unbiased, that's
willing to --
DICK SWENSEN: Unbiased, huh?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Unbiased. That's what I
said.
DICK SWENSEN: well, perhaps I can ask for
someone out there that's willing to, to, to agree and
U I 2...
to deal and to make some concessions, some, some
movement off this dime and we'll move forward. So may
I ask for someone that might be able to do that?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: we have already done
that. We have done that --
DICK SWENSEN: Really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: from this end. We are
trying to talk to you, Dick.
DICK SWENSEN: Really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: I'm not Stupid.
DICK SWENSEN: Am I? Are you implying that
I'm stupid?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Well, just a little.
DICK SWENSEN: Oh. well, thank you. I
appreciate that.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, you didn't agree
that David didn't renege on his deal and I don't see
where you can say he did.
DICK SWENSEN: Kathy, if you want to talk in
circles --
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You didn't have the third
seal and he did. That was his deal.
DICK SWENSEN: Oh, really?
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You show him the right
third seal and he would send some kids out, you didn't.
DICK SWENSEN: Really? Okay.
U I 23
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: You say so he didn't
renege.
DICK SWENSEN: All right. Kathy, listen.
Tell David that I will go beyond that. We will forget
that and I'm -- and I will tell him that perhaps I
didn't do as - what he wanted to do.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: we'll forget that. But
you don't agree that he didn't renege, and that's where
you don't we don't want you anymore. If you cannot
agree that you did not have the right answer --
DICK SWENSEN: Well, there's been some
misunderstanding. My understanding was something
different than David's apparently, so we can, we can
forget that then. You know, I'll concede that perhaps
I misunderstood what he said.
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, Dick, I'm nOt --
DICK SWENSEN: Okay? But let's go on to my
challenge to him ~-
KATHRYN SCHROEDER: Dick, before you issue
your challenge, David wants to tell you the rules of
the game just one more time.
DICK SWENSEN: That's exactly what I want to
do with him.
DAVID KORESH: Hello, DiCk.
DICK SWENSEN: You're back.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah, I'm back.
I I 24
DICK SWENSEN: G006.
DAVID KORESH: Now, here's the rules of the
game one more time.
DICK SWENSEN: Let's put them on paper. Or
on tape. And then we'll have the rules down where we
can both understand them, we can both see them, and
we'll deal with them then.
DAVID KORESH: All right. Well, when would
you like to pick this up?
DICK SWENSEN: Send - get it down - send it
out with the kids.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, for
Tape 83 ends.!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #84
3/7/93
6:27 P.M. 7:15 P.M.
O 0 2
Tape 84!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello.
JOHN: Hey, Steven.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John.
JOHN: How are you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: N012 1200 bad. HOwS
yourself?
JOHN: Good, good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, good, good --
JOHN: Got a little rest, got a little chow.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was just talking with
David and he was he's telling me Dick more or less
just struck out with us.
JOHN: Aw, I'm sorry to hear that. How come?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David says he needs to go
back to school.
JOHN: I guess we all do sometimes, huh?
There's always room for education isn't there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He says so. What he's
telling me right now, he says so far Jim is the best
one.
JOHN: Well, I'm afraid Jim is - that makes
me feel bad. I'm disappointed. I thought I was the
best one.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he's just getting to
know you.
JOHN: Well, good. Let, let me, let me tell
you the primary reason I'm calling, Steven.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
JOHN: we got a, a call in here,
passed to us actually, by whomever we haveor a note
up around
the front, up around where you are that somebody was
sticking a longbarrel rifle out the third floor
window, or longbarrel weapon, whatever, third floor
window of the main building there on the construction
end? On the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: On the left end would it
be?
JOHN: Yeah. I guess if you're standing in
front, looking at the flag --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN:
floor, sticking
STEVE
JOHN:
problems, huh?
STEVE
humored by this
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE it would be at the left end, third
a long~barrel weapon out the window.
SCHNEIDER:
And we don
SCHNEIDER:
, Dave.
I probably
SCHNEIDER:
Oh.
SCHNEIDER:Okay.
t, we don't want any
This you're going to be
will.
No, no. I'm telling David
He's, he's given me a joke
Q 0 .
here, John is. He said that they don't want any
problems, but someone's spicking a long -- sticking a
long-barreled rifle or something out -- facing the
front, it's on the left-hand side, on the third level
out the window.
JOHN: But not facing the front. Facing the
side.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Facing the, facing the --
JOHN: The construction side.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Facing the side, the
construction side. Yeah, John is telling me that with
a chagrin on his face because he's got all these tanks,
with all these muzzles and all these cannons pointed at
us, and he's worried about --
JOHN: No, I'm just talking about the rules
of safety that we all agreed to.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Now, he's talking about the
rules of safety that we all agreed to and these things
are on our property. They've got -- which you have --
which you agreed to, but which you haven't done, John.
JOHN: What?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right from the time we
talked to Jim --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Sunday, late afternoon --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
0 0 5
STEVE SCHNEIDER:_ -- right into the evening,
between David, myself, and him. Over and over again he
promised, he gave his word, three Bradleys, three --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - would come up to the
perimeter of the property, not on the property. We had
an agreement that has never been kept by you people.
Dick calls me every now and then and he says that
somebody's got a -- I don't even remember the word,
what it was, but a girl was looking out the window --
JOHN: Uh-huh .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- on what they call the
tower, and he said that someone had a camouflage jacket
or something on with something over the face. I can't
even remember -- the strangest word I'd ever heard.
JOHN: Balaclava.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly. And he's all
excited and so forth --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I'm sitting here
and thinking to myself, is this insanity or what?
Seriously -- here they've gone to --
JOHN: Well, I, I -- you know I'm not all
excited, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, here they've gone
to --
I OU 6
JOHN: I'm just trying to tell you we don't
need anybody to get jumpy, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Here we have all these guns
pointed at us. They're on the property, contrary to
what the word that was given - what?
JOHN: Go ahead.
Pause.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah, like when I went
up there one time to take a look to see what it was
looking like.
JOHN: Uh-huh .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is a couple days ago.
I happened to look out, just look out the window at the
Bradley sitting down there by the garage --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And when I opened up the
curtain, of course, they pointed a 25 millimeter gun
directly at me. Directly at my person. Right in line
with me.
JOHN: Yeah, but nobody fire --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then yesterday we told
you about how we got -- somebody bared their ass to us.
JOHN: I told -- you told me that and I
talked to somebody about that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and the finger --
JOHN: Yup.
0 O ,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They point guns at us.
They, they ran over our cemetery, which is an illegal
thing. It's a violation of the State codes, the laws
of Texas.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And when our attorney
mentioned that to Dick, Dick said, what are you going
to do about it. That was his --
JOHN: No, I'm sure he didn't say that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. That's what no,
he did. Honestly. You go back and listen to the tape,
the conversation, that's what he said. What are you
going to do about it?
JOHN: You're kidding?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I'm not kidding.
JOHN: No. You well, he must have been a
little feisty at the time or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NO, John.
JOHN: -- something, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: John. And let's, let's
talk reality now. Let's talk down to earth. You --
we, we are both sitting down here right now. We had an
agreement --
JOHN: David's sitting down?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, he's right here.
JOHN: He's got to be feeling better.
!0 Q 8
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He iS.
JOHN: Good.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Anyway, we had an
agreement. Those Bradleys come and go on the property,
they removed personal property. That means the
motorcycles out into the open elements. They were in
the garage -- that's right, that's right. We don't
have any rights, so I don't I really don't know why
we're talking
JOHN: Don't have any what?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Rights.
JOHN: Sure you do. You have Constitutional
rights.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. The attorney --
no, that has not been shown. We -- the attorney got on
the telephone and talked about the first Bill of Rights
- Bill of Rights, the First Amendment and the Fourth.
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Totally without regard by
you people. This country, which is founded on such
awesome principles, like something like this should
never happen. A total disregard --
JOHN: It never should have happened to begin
with.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of course not. Of course
not.
0 0 9
JOHN: But it did.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So why isn't there an
investigation? Why haven't your - these men of the
ATF been arrested and an investigation started on them
for the murder, attempted murder, and in fact they did
commit it.
JOHN: Hey, I guarantee you there's a very
extensive investigation being conducted --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's not good enough.
You --
JOHN: - as to the, the whole -- the entire
- the incident in its entirety. You know, it's not
just your side or my side or anybody's side.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Obviously --
JOHN: It's of the entire incident.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, John, this country has
become so corrupt.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If someones in Government,
someone is wearing a badge. It is not the same thing
as your honest citizen. Your everyday person
personality. It is not the same thing.
JOHN: what, what do you mean?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What do I mean?
JOHN: Yeah. I mean, I wear, I wear a badge.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: these guys that I've
U 10
got so many eye witnesses here, what happened. They
all have -- they saw it from a different angle,
different perspective, men, women, and children.
JOHN: Well, you know, there's going to be --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And, and they probably
JOHN: -- two sides to the story and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, man, there --
JOHN: There are.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah. And I'm glad
that the press got to film this thing.
JOHN: And, and it'll be adjudicated in a
court of law by a jury of whomever's peers.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We would feel a lot better
if we had a nonbiased press involved and us a line to
them. I told you that over and over again.
JOHN: You know what I, you know what I said
about dealing with the press?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: take the $5 --
JOHN: Right? If anybody wants to talk to
the press they can, or David can prepare it - a tape
similar to the one that he did before, you know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We asked like - remember
how Sunday, right into Monday we had open lines to the
press?
JOHN: Sure I do.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And it worked. We had no
0 Q .1
problem with you. That's when David chose to start
sending children out. He wanted to see what the
reaction would be by yourselves. And he continued to
do so. The first red flag that popped up with all of
us --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- was when you cut our
phone lines.
JOHN: Uh-huh .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Once doing that, then the
suspicion started and it's only grown worse.
JOHN: what suspicion?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: The suspicion that --
JOHN: That we don't want to let the media
know what's going on?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of course.
JOHN: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We wanted --
JOHN: Let me ask you. Have you watched the,
the, the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Press conferences?
JOHN: Yeah. which I haven't, but I -- all
I've done is told what takes place.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes. That's what has made
all these people all the madder because of that which
was stated in behalf by your agency --
JOHN:
STEVE
truth.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
the media
STEVE
JOHN:
valid.
STEVE
don't
there that says
media
JOHN:
night.
STEVE
JOHN:
night.
STEVE
children do you
JOHN:
STEVE
least five kids
JOHN:, 0 O 1.
You don't think it's the truth.
SCHNEIDER: It is positively not the
Then why don't you tell David to --
SCHNEIDER: We may --
-- prepare a tape that we'll give to
that he can correct --
SCHNEIDER: Okay. Let, let say --
-- anything that he thinks is not, not
SCHNEIDER speaking to Koresh!: -- why
David -- correct anything that has not been so on
his point and they'll give it to the
to be played.
I mentioned that to you and David last
SCHNEIDER: Well, David says --
That'd we'd be happy to do it last
SCHNEIDER: David says, how many
want for that?
we wanted at least five kids.
SCHNEIDER: Whoa! He says we wanted at
Remember when we started off last
night. Okay? You had this, you had this dialogue
0 0 13
going before I arrived that was -- you wanted, they
wanted all the kids out and all the women out and we'd
let you put a tape together and the whole nine yards.
And I said, hey, this is negotiable, right? We can
talk about this thing.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David says
kids, by the way.
JOHN: I'm sorry?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David says
kids.
JOHN: You do?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. You
names?
JOHN: Well, I know you have
children.we got five
we've got five
want their
more than five
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, I know, but you
mentioned five though --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
got five.-- and he says -- and we
JOHN: But it -- does that seem like a
reasonable thing?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you want their names?
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. The
Jim. The second one is Gary.first one is
0 O 1,
JOHN: Jim who?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I never got his last name.
Jim, Gary, Henry --
JOHN: Oh, what a piece of change you are.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, come on --
JOHN: Huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But where did you get the
five from now? We were talking --
JOHN: I suppose I'm number five, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I would imagine,
but --
JOHN: Gary's one of them, right though?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Well, we're not
talking like that --
JOHN: And Henry's one of them.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, we're jumping
around so much --
JOHN: Look at that. I'm not, I'm not
calling you people names in there and I'm not being
facetious with you in there. And I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I know that. No, no,
you're not, you're not. And I - that's what I
especially appreciate, I really do.
JOHN: And I'm trying to be as calm as can be
and I will be calm. I'm not going to raise my voice,
I'm not going to get upset with you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Why did you listen, did15
you
listen to a tape between the convers - the
conversation of Dick and myself or something?
JOHN: No. I sat down and talked to Dick --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He called up -
JOHN: What'd you do to the guy? You got
all frustrated.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. He shocked
heck out of me. The, the
JOHN: But what
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
calls
us to take a look at it, we do.
rings. I pick up the phone, how
Wherehim
the
absolute insult of it all.
did you say to him?
He told me - okay, he
up, we look at this press conference. He asked
Finally the phone
you doing, Dick.
are we at now? And he's so excited. I said,
calm down, what's up? He could hardly get it out, what
he got out he was talking about somebody up in a
camouflage something or other.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then this ends up being
some kind of a mask or something
that's from another country with
looking out the window. Can you
got all these tanks out there --
fear. I mean, what on earth! IHere it is a girl
a dark-skin face
imagine? And here you
together in total
mean, I said - what
is going on here. The audacity to even mention it to
0 O 16
me when you keep on violating running all over the
property, pointing guns anytime you want at us. You
run over guard shacks. You move things around our per
-- what on tell me, John. What are you -- if you
were sitting here with me, what would you think of that
kind of thing?
JOHN: You, you know what?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You're concerned about -
JOHN: If I were sitting there with you, I'd
want to get away from that kind of thing and get out of
there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: To think you know you
guys see a broom sticking out the window or a broom
handle and right away you're all - I mean, can you
believe it? I don't even believe - in the first
place, I do not believe that's true. I really don't.
I don't even - I don't think they're seeing things.
JOHN: I, I just don't need, I just don't
need any problems, Steven. And you, you don't need any
problems --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's --
JOHN: -- I don't need any problems, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. John, that's true.
That's why we - why the major problems with Dick
today?
JOHN: That's why I want to talk to you, huh?
I Q 1-,
Not problems. We're not hurting anybody. We're not
threatening to hurt anybody.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think -
JOHN: We got a lot of movement out there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: wait just a minute, John.
The guy that -- apparently what they were seeing was --
the guy that they saw was actually a guy from Africa
and he was taking a leak.
JOHN: That's a real sense of humor, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, anyway, you had --
JOHN: That's kind of crude, Steve, isn't it?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, listen, you had a
little humor yesterday, so I thought I'd break --
JOHN: What?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, remember, we were
breaking the ice a little bit --
JOHN: Well, yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- yesterday, so --
JOHN: That's, that's kind of got racial,
ethnic overtones to it, though, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: well, that's -- it came
from a black man.
JOHN: Oh, okay. Okay. As long as it didn't
come from David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just a minute. He says --
David does say this, I mean, in all seriousness, his
0 O .8
father is going to take care of all you and that is no
joke.
JOHN: Well, I guess he'll take care of all
of us, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But he wants - but lookit,
he wants to give you a Bible study real quick. Is that
okay, John?
JOHN: A real quick David does not know
what a real quick Bible study is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He says you do not know
what a real quick Bible study is.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Well, I'm going to show
him the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He says he's going to show
you.
JOHN: Are you going to agree to that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, yes.
JOHN: It's kind of hard, it's kind of hard.
I guess I'll get back to you, Steven, around midnight,
huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Laughter.! John, I do
like you.
JOHN: Let, let me ask you something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, go ahead.
JOHN: Before we get into this lengthy
dialogue here.
Q 0 1.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
night --
STEVE
JOHN:
talked to David
STEVE
JOHN:
then. I hope.SCHNEIDER: Okay.
Onesided dialogue, I might add.
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
Remember when we left off last
SCHNEIDER:
And, and I
SCHNEIDER:
-- becauseYeah.
talked to you and then I
Right.
you were probably asleep by
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I was, man, I, I was. Man,
I couldn't get over how long that went.
JOHN: I hope.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You lost me along the --
JOHN: we, we talked about the people who had
called in --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
JOHN: And about the people of whom they were
concerned.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Um-hum. Right.
JOHN: Now, I realize by the time I got done
with David, you know, talking to David at 2:30 this
morning, that was not the appropriate time to wake
these people up and have them come in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Correct.
O 9 2.
JOHN: But both you agreed to let me say
hello to them and David agreed.
STEVE
- I don't know
a few. In fact
JOHN:
STEVE
lot more than a
JOHN:
STEVE
more.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
Jeff Little and
STEVE
way --
JOHN:
and --
* STEVESCHNEIDER: You know that Dick has been
if he told you, but he talked to quite
I __
Well, he said he talked to a couple.
SCHNEIDER: well, actually there was a
couple.
And there were a couple of --
SCHNEIDER: There were at least five or
But, remember, we went over a list.
SCHNEIDER: Uhhuh.
You know, David Thibodeau and, and
Miss Vega and --
SCHNEIDER: And I went around -- by the
And Miss Jewell and Borst and Craddock
SCHNEIDER: They're all around here. I
went to every last one of them, said that they could
call you or --
JOHN:
STEVEUhhuh.
SCHNEIDER: - when you called they
could talk to you.
JOHN: Well, they're not going to be able to
0 O 2.
talk to me right now, because I'm going to be
enlightened here
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVESCHNEIDER: Okay.
You know that and I know that.
SCHNEIDER: Okay. I will make sure
that they will be --
JOHN: But please let me talk to them when,
when I'm done talking to David.
STEVE
that.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:SCHNEIDER: I will do that. I will do
Okay?
SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'll do that.
I appreciate it.
SCHNEIDER: Here's Dave -- here he is.
Thank you.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
KORESH: Hello, John.
How do you feel? Better?
KORESH: I had a good laugh just then.
Well, that's not necessarily good for
you though, is it?
DAVID KORESH: Well, it, it was like someone
kicking me in the back, but it was well worth it.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID KORESH: It'S like --
JOHN:when you were talking about the five
Echildren?0 O .2
DAVID KORESH: Laughter.!
JOHN: Huh? See? That's Satan speaking
there, isn't it?
blasphemeDAVID KORESH: NO, John.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID KORESH: No. Be careful. Don't
the Holy Spirit. Don't dare do that, son.
JOHN: Lord. Hey, at least I didn't call
somebody Pop, did I?
DAVID KORESH: Hey! When you - the Pope
means pop, my man.
JOHN: No, that's poppa.
DAVID KORESH: No, poppa is still the same as
pop, silly. Get your, get your --
proper.
or not?
with what
in FrenchJOHN: Slang.
DAVID KORESH: get your diction down --
JOHN: Slang.
DAVID KORESH: Now, do you want to learn this
JOHN: Well, you know you're, you're dealing
we would call a téte de pioche, a thickhead
DAVID KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: How's your French, but go let's go.
I ." 23
DAVID KORESH: Let's go. Okay. All right.
Now, like, like Gaychay phonetic sp.! said, you know,
I, I told him, I said, look. You show me these seals
and then that way I'll know that my god's lied to me,
that everybody knows them, or somebody else knows them,
and then I can't trust to my god no more so I'll just
come on out to you. That's the arrangements I made
with him. So --
JOHN: Oh, hey, before we get wound up here,
and while you're calming down from the bit of levity, I
know Dick had talked to Kathy, okay?
DAVID KORESH: Uhhuh.
JOHN: Before, and I don't know if you were
there. I presume you were. About the youngsters and
milk and this whole thing. And I just want you to
understand that we are more than happy to bring the
milk up if there, there's going to be an exchange of
two youngsters. And, and that's --
DAVID KORESH: Now, let's don't play that
game. Hey, let me tell you something, before I hang up
on you, all right?
JOHN: Don't do that.
DAVID KORESH: No, no. Listen.
JOHN: What?
DAVID KORESH: You're dealing with my
children now.
0 O 24
children.
wait a min
children n
down to.
children.
welfare.
standing f
welfare.
isJOHN: Well, I -- all the children are your
All those people are your children.
DAVID KORESH: -- you just wait a minute, you
ute. You're dealing with my biological
ow.
JOHN: Why do you say that?
DAVID KORESH: Because that's what we've come
JOHN: Well, I'm concerned about --
DAVID KORESH: Don't say --
JOHN: - the care and welfare of your
DAVID KORESH: -- don't say well to me.
JOHN: Why not? I'm concerned about their
DAVID KORESH: -- because if me and you were
ace to face, you wouldn't say well to me.
JOHN: why not?
DAVID KORESH: Because.
JOHN: I've got children. I care about their
DAVID KORESH: That's beside the point.
JOHN: You know, you know what the agreement
DAVID KORESH: I know what my agreement is.
JOHN: What?
92
I
92Q Q 25
DAVID KORESH: I've told you. I sent you out
Mark and I told you to send us some milk. You said
you'd get onto it. Jim told me he'd get onto it, that
they was getting it. I says all right. I says I'll go
ahead and I went ahead and sent out --
JOHN: Those were the agreements?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. I went ahead and
sent out Kevin because the milk was on the way.
JOHN: Uhhuh .
DAVID KORESH: And then Kevin -- they came
back, you know Kevin - there was no milk given and so
then the next thing of it was that well, you know, he
said he was having some difficulty and then we got on
the phone. So then all of a sudden we ended up sending
out Heather.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: Now, there's three kids, and
no milk. So, you know, let's talk about, let's talk
about --
JOHN: Well, I don't remember - I was here
when Ke when Heather came out and I don't even
remember any dialogue about milk when she came out.
DAVID KORESH: well, you have a bad memory,
what can I say?
JOHN: No, I don't.
DAVID KORESH: Come on. Let's stop this
game.
right?
was asked
personal,
angry and
fail to understand the mentality of
You misjudge. You don't understand0 U 26
JOHN: It didn't come up.
DAVID KORESH: Let's stop right now, all
JOHN: Well, I just wanted to tell you what I
to tell you.
DAVID KORESH: It's just that I'm taking it
okay? Now, in Psalms 2 it says - to get
like I say, you guys are starting to push me.
JOHN: Now, we don't want to do that.
DAVID KORESH: No, let me say something. You
the people here.
that whereas we are
sober in the degree and we love souls and want you guys
to possibly break out of your chains of darkness by
learning some truth here. On the other hand, you
interpret
religious
mentionedto the media that my statements to you is
babbling.
JOHN: Oh, I don't think those words were
at all to the media.
DAVID KORESH: Well, would you like to quote
-- unquote what the words were?
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: Rambling.
JOHN: Pardon?
DAVID KORESH: Rambling.
0 U 27
JOHN: Maybe a rambling dialogue sometimes?
Could that have been it?
DAVID KORESH: This is what I said. Rambling
is the same as babbling.
JOHN: No, it's not.
DAVID KORESH: Going all over the place.
JOHN: What else don't you like that was said
to the media? And you know there's a simple solution
to that too. You put a tape together and we work it
out.
DAVID KORESH: Send out some kids and send
out some kids and put the tape together and send out
some kids.
JOHN: You know, I, I understood that in the
statement to the media it was pointed out to the media
that as far as we were concerned, anybody was free to
leave there and that you were waiting to get the word,
right?
DAVID KORESH: Oh, that's what I've said all
along --
JOHN: And as we talked last night --
DAVID KORESH: but you don't honor that
statement.
JOHN: what do you mean?
DAVID KORESH: You continue to harangue and
harass. You continue to try to --
' ~ 28
JOHN: N0 .
DAVID KORESH: well, actually it's very
silly --
JOHN: would you rather that we didn't even
talk?
DAVID KORESH: -- the way that you gentlemen
are actually working or talking because first of all,
you know, me and Steven sit in here and talk with the
people about -- well, actually we drew pictures of you
all anyway.
JOHN: Uh-oh .
DAVID KORESH: We've got, we've got a big
picture here, a big picture of ~ see, there's Jim and
Gary and Henry and Dick and John here. And --
JOHN: Because I'm curious to see some of
them.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, yeah. Well, you'll see
some of them.
JOHN: You don't have any horns on the heads
of any of them, do you?
DAVID KORESH: No, no, no. They're very
pleasant kind of men, very well~mannered. Cookie sheet
kind of people.
JOHN: They're put up on a dartboard or
something?
DAVID KORESH: No, it's just up here on the
O U .9
wall.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID KORESH: You know. And, you know, they
got Dick where he's a real nice guy, you know, and they
got, you know ~ the shortest one of all here is Henry,
so --
JOHN: Uhhuh. He's going to feel kind of
depressed over that. You know that, don't you?
DAVID KORESH: Well, what can I say? But
he's a nice looking guy.
JOHN: He is. He's kind of a, a mature
looking fella.
DAVID KORESH: Right. The picture looks --
JOHN: Very suave and debonair.
DAVID KORESH: Yeah. The picture looks that
way too.
JOHN: I'd love -- tell me what Gary looks
like. That's the one that's got my, my interest up.
DAVID KORESH: Let's see. Gary, Gary looks
more how, how would you say the look is, Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - kind Of tall --
DAVID KORESI-I: Kind Of tall.
JOHN: Tall?
DAVID KORESH: More, more of a, more of a
boyish kind of look.
JOHN: Yeah. If, if you kind of I'm
O Q 3.
waiting to hear
DAVIDthis, now, come on.
KORESH: Kind of more of an aggressive~
type personality. How much hair does John has he
any lost hair?
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
on that picture
DAVIDJohn?
KORESH: Yeah.
Lost hair?
KORESH: Yeah.
Not a chance.
KORESH: Okay.
You, you better paint some hair back
then, huh?
KORESH: You need, need to put the
hairline up a little bit further, Steven.
JOHN:
DAVID
hair.5
JOHN:
DAVID
them. So your,
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
cruel now, aren
DAVID
JOHN:I've got more hair than all of them.
KORESH: He, he says he's got long
Not long, more.
KORESH: He's got more hair than all of
your nose is not that big, is it?
Oh, that's cold.
KORESH: It's what?
That's cold. You're being kind of
't you?
KORESH: No, no. I'm just asking.
No.
O Q 3.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. All right. Anyway,
basically by the voice personalities and stuff, the
pictures are being drawn.
JOHN: Uhoh.
DAVID KORESH: So anyway. Okay, well you
don't want to learn these seals so I'll sign I'll
hand you back over to Steve here then, okay?
JOHN: Oh, talk to me.
DAVID KORESH: Well --
JOHN: I just don't want to leave you upset,
you know. I want to talk to you. I want to
communicate with you.
DAVID KORESH: Communicate with me then, talk
to me.
JOHN: You know what I want. I want to
successfully resolve this thing. You told me last
night that you were ready to come out. All you were
doing is waiting for the word from your father, right?
DAVID KORESH: That's right.
JOHN: Did you do some serious praying today?
DAVID KORESH: I pray every day.
JOHN: Well, I know that. But there's prayer
and there's prayer, huh? There's pretty deep prayer.
DAVID KORESH: Well, anyway, tomorrow's
supposed to be good weather, isn't it?
JOHN: It's beautiful today.
Q Q 32
DAVID KORESH: You guys want to, you guys
want to have a football game tomorrow?
JOHN: You bet, but it's got to be out past
the end of that road --
DAVID KORESH: No, right here in the front.
JOHN: Right there in the front?
DAVID KORESH: Yeah.
JOHN: You're having a pipe dream.
DAVID KORESH: A pipe dream? What's that?
Kind of a narrow vision type thing or what?
JOHN: Well, I didn't want to get into the
word vision.
DAVID KORESH: Okay.
JOHN: I figured you'd bring that up soon
enough.
DAVID KORESH: Well, anyway --
JOHN: But, no.
DAVID KORESH: If you all want to play
tomorrow, you all can probably play if you want to,
huh?
JOHN: Hey, as they say. Safety and justice
for all, right down at the end of the road. Huh? It's
as easy as that. But are we going to have a little,
little Bible study tonight?
DAVID KORESH: would you like one?
JOHN: Well, I don't mind. I don't mind.
O U 3.
But what I'd really like to do is ensure that we don't
have anybody sticking anything out of any windows up
there. I mean it's one thing for us to observe
something in the daylight hours. It's really
difficult --
DAVID KORESH: Well, let me tell you
something, John.
JOHN: - at nighttime.
DAVID KORESH: Let me tell you. If somebody
does -~
JOHN: Yes.
DAVID KORESH: Okay?
JOHN: Don't do it.
DAVID KORESH: No, but let me say something.
If somebody does, okay? Then you do what you have to
do.
JOHN: Well, I did. I called you up and I
said --
DAVID KORESH: All right?
JOHN: ~ it's being kind of ridiculous.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. But you stop making
your threats, okay? We called a cease fire, all right?
S0 we have a cease fire now. But don't tell us how to
run our operation anymore. Do you understand?
JOHN: What kind of an operation are we
running?
"I, "I 34
DAVID KORESH: We're talking about the
operation we're running --
JOHN: I thought we were trying to get into
some rational conversation here.
DAVID KORESH: and you're talking about
the operation ~ okay. Let me say something.
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: Next time one of your tanks
points a barrel at one of our windows --
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: Then we'll, then we'll see
where the cheese goes, okay?
JOHN: What, what goes?
DAVID KORESH: Where the cheese goes.
JOHN: what's that mean?
DAVID KORESH: Well, find out.
JOHN: Well, I don't want to get any threats
from you. You're not getting any threats from me.
DAVID KORESH: That's not a threat, it's a
promise.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID KORESH: It's a promise.
JOHN: Promise to do what?
DAVID KORESH: Like I said, find out.
D 0 35
JOHN: Yeah. Do you --
DAVID KORESH: when somebody -- let me tell
you something, John.
JOHN: Do you ~
DAVID KORESH: when someone sticks a 25
millimeter cannon at somebody because they're looking
out the window, now that's a threat.
JOHN: It's my
DAVID KORESH:
JOHN: that
Bradleys.
DAVID KORESH: You are full of
T, shit!
JOHN: How can you say that?
DAVID KORESH: Now, go look in
and look that word up. It's unabridged,
JOHN: Hey, we were told --
DAVID KORESH: You are full of
JOHN: -- that the barrels had
on the Bradleys.
DAVID KORESH: You are full of
JOHN: Don't say that.
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID KORESH: Yeah. God.
JOHN:understanding --
That is a threat
there are no barrels on the
shit! SHI
the dictionary
okay?
been removed
shit.
KORESH: I just did and I mean it.
There are barrels on the Bradleys?
Well, the reason I say that is I'm not
I, I, 36
out there.
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:KORESH: Oh, God.
I'm a long ways off.
KORESH: Oh.
Do you, do you really think we're
going to start firing indiscriminately up at that
place?
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
you a story -
JOHN:
DAVID
story you ain't
JOHN:
DAVIDKORESH: I sure hope so.
why? Don't you care for the children?
KORESH: Because I'll give, I'll give
Don't you care for yourself?
KORESH: I'll give, I'll give you a
never seen.
Go ahead.
KORESH: Oh, I'm sitting up. Wait a
minute. Let's turn in our Bibles to Isaiah 28.
JOHN:
DAVIDDo what?
KORESH: Turn in the Bible to Isaiah
28. I'm still not going to give up on you, John.
JOHN:
David, either.
DAVID
like you do.
JOHN:
to calm down.I'm not going to give up on you,
I just want you to calm down.
KORESH: I don't get paid to calm down
Yeah, you do. You getting big bucks
92
I
l
IDAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
up there.
DAVID
JOHN:O ,,
KORESH: Am I?
Yeah.
KORESH: Is that what you think?
The, the biggest of the bucks.
KORESH: Is that what you think?
Because, you know, you have your flock
KORESH: Ah, yeah.
And the only way that you can handle
this is in a good, calm demeanor.
DAVIDKORESH: I tell you. If you only knew
the way it's going to end.
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:Do you?
KORESH: Yes, I do.
Well, I thought you said you hadn't
got the word yet?
DAVIDKORESH: I can pretty much see the way
you guys are acting.
JOHN:
DAVID
your own neck.
JOHN:
DAVIDNo, no, no. We're out here ~-
KORESH: I see you, I see you hanging
We ~
KORESH: That's all right. Don't worry
about it. Don't - just don't worry about what I have
to say. You'll, you'll find out later.
JOHN: well ~-
O Q .8
DAVIDKORESH: Okay. Now, you got Isaiah 28?
The 28th chapter of Isaiah?
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:Hang on. I'm up to 26.
KORESH: Okay. That's two more.
Hey, before we get cranking on 28 and,
and I don't want to change your train of thought here,
but I mentioned to Steven, before he left, that I
probably wouldn't be talking to him for a while.
DAVID KORESH: All right.
JOHN: And one of the last things I discussed
with you last night and something that I discussed with
him were the names of the people who had called in and
the people who they had called about. And that it
would - and that I'd like to say hello to them. And
you said that was fine.
DAVID KORESH: well, now, John, all day today
- yes it is. And all day today we was trying to talk
with Dick and I
you can talk to
my children and
here. You have
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
mentioned
DAVIDtold you, I told you individuals that
every one of these girls that have had
the other children that are remaining
Uhhuh.
KORESH: ~- you have that privilege.
What about those people that, that I
that you said I could talk to them.
KORESH: Well, you still can.
I Q 39
JOHN: But I, I don't want them you know,
we got off the phone 2:30 this morning. That's
certainly not the time to talk to them, right?
DAVID KORESH: Right.
JOHN: Hopefully I can talk to them this
evening.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, you want me to cut this
study short. Okay, we'll try. Let's go.
JOHN: Well, we can have more than one study.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Well, let's get through
this one and then we'll get over into the other, okay?
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: You there?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID KORESH: What's verse 1 say?
JOHN: Woe --
DAVID KORESH: To the crown of what?
JOHN: Pride.
DAVID KORESH: To the drunkards of Ephraim.
Now, you notice if you knew the stories of the Bible
you would come to an understanding that Solomon, when
he was a king, he had apostatized phonetic sp.! from
God and he began to worship the other gods of the other
nations. He had many wives, many strange wives from
different and many countries. And what happened was
that he bankrupted his nation.
Q Q ,0
So, when Rehoboam, his son, was to take the
throne, they asked Rehoboam if they would -- if he
would cut down some of the taxations against the people
and Rehoboam said that his little finger would be
thicker than his dad's leg. In other words, he was
going to increase the taxes and not deduct from them.
So God rose up this man, Jeroboam, who took the
northern kingdom of Israel, the ten tribes, and they
separated from the two tribes of the southern kingdom,
which remained to be Judah and Benjamin.
So in the of the northern kingdoms,
Ephraim, one of the tribes of the northern kingdoms,
took the throne or took the kingship and for several
years throughout Bible record you'll find that Ephraim
is referred to as the ten tribes. Now, this prophecy
starts off with woe to the crown of pride, the
drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading
flower. The kind of flowers which are where? Which
are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are
overcome with wine. These guys are drunkards. Now,
when you're drunk you're not in your right mind, are
you?
Especially when you have a drink of wine.
You get too much wine, it makes you feel real good,
don't it? Things don't bother you. You're happy. But
when you come down from it, it'll kick you, okay? Now
this kingdom, evidently, these drunkards, the
Ephraimites who probably -- they're presently looking
real good like a flower. God says they're going to
fade, right? And God explains to them how this will be
done.
Behold, verse 2, the Lord hath a mighty and
strong one. Okay? The Lord has a what now? A mighty
and a what?
JOHN: Mighty and strong one.
DAVID KORESH: And which as a tempest of hail
and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters
overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the
hand. So this guy, evidently God says he's a pretty
bad customer, isn't he? Right? You see that point?
JOHN: Got you.
DAVID KORESH: His warfare is like a tempest
of hail and destroying storm. Okay. He's going to
cast down to the earth with the hand. Okay? What's he
going to cast down? The crown of pride. The drunkards
of Ephraim shall be trodden under feet. So these guys
are in a bad situation, aren't they?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID KORESH: And the glorious beauty, which
is on the head of the fat valley shall be a fading
flower and as the hasty fruit before the summer, which
he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his
O O 4,
hand he eateth it up. I mean, some people they want
their glory and they want it now, don't they? You
know, you see an apple develop on a tree. They can't
wait till it gets ripe, they got to have it now, right?
Okay.
In that day, when these drunkards are cast
down, when these people are taken care of, whoever they
are, shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory,
and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his
people. In other words, a remnant. Right? So one
group's going to be punished severely by the strong and
mighty one that God has and the remnants, whom those
whom God reserves, God will be their crown of glory,
right?
God will also be for a spirit of judgment to
him that sits in judgment, for strength to them that
turn the battle to the gate. Okay? we got to find out
what battle this is and what gate they're going to be
turning to, right? It says, but they also have erred
through wine, and through strong drink are out of the
way; the priest and the prophet have erred through
strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are
out of the way through strong drink. They err in what?
JOHN: vision.
DAVID KORESH: They stumble in what?
JOHN: Judgment.
C Q .3
DAVID KORESH: So they really don't know what
they're doing, do they? They don't understand the
visions, do they? They don't understand true judgment,
do they? Well, for all tables are full of vomit and
filthiness, so there is no place clean. So the
prophecy talks about these people that think they know
what they're doing and they don't. God says they
don't.
God says he's got a strong and mighty one
who's going to set them straight, right? Okay. Well,
then, whom shall he teach knowledge then. Whom shall
he make to understand doctrine then? What kind of
people? Babies? No. Them that are weaned from the
milk and drawn from the breast. For precept must be
upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line,
line upon line; here a little, and there a little.
That's what I've been doing for you individuals.
I've been showing you in the revelation the
seven seals. I've been trying to take you all over the
testament of the prophets.
Hello baby. Hey, go sit down, go sit down.
Daddy's talking.
I been trying to show you all over the
written scripture the same records and the same
pictures. For with stammering lips and another tongue
will he speak to this people. To whom he said, this is
Q Q 44
the rest wherein you may cause the weary to rest, and
this is the refreshing, yet they would not hear.
Okay. Now, a careful student of scripture
would find in every passage pertaining to the seals --
go over there, son. Go sit down. Daddy's giving a
study. Okay?
Scripture talks about prophecies that are
important for the latter days. That's what the seals
are. It's a message that God had declared to his
servants the prophets, the message about Christ.
Something Christ must do in the latter days to fulfill
the testament of the prophets. But the prophecy says
here, the God of the strong and mighty one. The
question is, could this person be Christ?
We don't know. We have to find out. But the
word of the Lord was unto to them precept upon precept,
precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little, that they might go and
fall backwards, be broken and snared and taken. So,
2,000 years ago did the Pharisees and Sanhedrin, did
they think they understood scripture? Did they?
JOHN: NO.
DAVID KORESH: Oh, they thought they knew it
like everything, didn't they? Uhhuh. But who did
they argue with all the time? who was the person they
would not agree with?
Q Q ,5
JOHN: The Lord.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. And it was always
over the interpretation, wasn't it?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. But who was right,
though? The Lord. So, wherefore hear the word of the
Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is
in Jerusalem. God's addressing them pretty hard, isn't
he? Because ye have said, we have made a covenant with
death, and with hell are we at agreement. when the
overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not
come unto us.
Now, remember this person in verse 2? The
Lord hath a mighty and a strong one? It's going to be
like a tempest of hail, isn't it. Like a destroying
storm, right? Like a hurricane. As a flood of mighty
waters overflowing he's going to cast down to the earth
with the hand, right? What's in his hand, do you know?
Could it be the word of God?
JOHN: The Bible.
DAVID KORESH: Could it be the Book?
JOHN: We know it's the Book.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, in the first seal,
Christ is revealed as a man on a white horse, right?
Psalms 45, God says he's the mightiest, right?
JOHN: And thunder.
O O ,6
DAVID KORESH: Okay. That's the first
thunder. Okay?
JOHN: And the Book.
DAVID KORESH: Now, in the second seal
Zechariah tells us he saw the Lord ride on a red horse,
correct?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: And the subject was is that
there were other horses and the attitude of the world
is that the earth is at ease, right? There's little of
no interest in these horses, are there?
JOHN: Other than ~~ well, in the horses, no.
But he was given a great sword, right?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Of course, that
sword is revealed when we find out that the four horns,
which have killed or destroyed Judah and Israel, were
the horns which overthrew Judah and Israel, which is
Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Through the
ministration of Christ and the spirit of prophecy,
God's allowed men to kill one another, to try to
overthrow kingdoms. That's why the, the Babylonians
were overthrown by the MedoPersians by the sword, the
Medo-Persians were overthrown by the Greeks by the
sword, the Greeks were overthrown by the Romans by the
sword and it's been so ever since, hasn't it?
JOHN: True.
I U 4,
DAVID KORESH: And the Lord allows that,
doesn't he? He doesn't do it Himself directly, but he
allows it to happen, doesn't he. Okay. So it's God's
word that permits these things to be. Now, we know
that in the third seal, like I showed Dick today.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: You know, that in the Book of
Hosea, the third seal is a man on a black horse, has a
pair of balances in his hand. We know that Hosea says
that the Lord is a merchant man and the balances of
deceit are in his hand. He loveth to oppress. we know
the prophecy of Hosea revolves around a time when
Israel for many years will be without a king, without a
sacrifice, without a temple, without teraphim, but the
day will come when Israel will seek the Lord their God
and David their king and will take the Lord in his
goodness in the latter days. That's what Hosea tells
US.
Hosea states that God will reveal the more
excellent things of His law, the great things, which
are the seals. That's a part of His law too, the
prophets, you know, in the part of
know. But they'll be counted as a
Hosea tells us that God chooses to
prophets, to warn by the prophets,
a merchant man and the balances ofGod's word, too, you
strange thing.
speak by the
because the Lord is
deceit are in His
C Q .8
hand. He loveth to oppress. Well, he oppresses the
wicked because only he can reveal these prophets. Only
he can confirm the covenant spoken of by the prophets
since the foundation of the world.
And that's why in the latter days, under the
third seal, he's called an oppressor by the prophet
Hosea, that he has the pair of balances in his hand.
So the prophets begin to tell us details of which I
know you don't want to go into, in regards to this
mystery of God through Christ, the word of God made
flesh, and the covenant that God would offer men in the
latter days before he brings this world to an end.
This is the mystery of God when this time no longer
will be finished and God had already said it to the
prophets. God's got a copy in heaven and God says only
the Lamb can put it in its right order.
Now, the fourth seal. We know he's the pale
horse rider, don't we?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: This ain't Clint Eastwood,
now. Okay?
JOHN: Pestilence, huh?
DAVID KORESH: All right. Now, this horse,
the name that sits upon it is death, right?
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID KORESH: And hell follows him, right?
O O 4.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, we know that the
crown of pride - God does not like rulers and leaders
to be proud, does he? Because in so being they're
drunkards, because they're responsible for the safety
and - of their people of which they govern. We know
that God has a strong and mighty one that's going to
overthrow these guys. we know that they err in vision.
We know these guys, they do not understand the visions.
They do not understand and so the question
is, well who will he teach knowledge then and who will
he make to understand doctrine. Those who are mature.
Not the milk suckers, but those who are mature. But
they think the word is to them. They think they
understand it in line upon line, precept upon precept.
So God says in verse 14, well, hear the word of the
Lord ye scornful men that rule this people in
Jerusalem.
They think they've made a covenant with
death, don't they? And with hell they are in
agreement, right? They think when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us.
who brings that overflowing scourge? Christ does,
correct? Right?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, when a person says
Q I so
they accept Christ as their Savior, they're accepting
that they believe in Christ all the way, so they must
believe the truth of Christ on the white horse. And
they must understand that truth if they really accept
him. They must also accept the truth that Christ is on
the red horse and whatever lesson that may contain.
They must also believe that Christ is on the black
horse and whatever lesson that may contain. And on the
pale horse, his name is death and hell follows.
Okay. So these people think they're in
agreement with this one who, when he passes through, he
will not come nigh unto them, right? For we have made
lies our refuge and under falsehood have we hid
ourselves. Therefore, thus saith the Lord God, behold
I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone. How many eyes
does this stone have? Do you remember?
JOHN: You bet.
DAVID KORESH: Seven, right?
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID KORESH: A tried stone. A precious
corner stone. A sure foundation. He that
this rock shall not make haste, you know?
first of all, at the time of the end, when
are to be opened, you know, I'm not tryingbelieveth on
why? Well.
these seals
to push you
into making an irrational decision, because I know
what's aiming at you.
I I 51
Just as you hopefully in the courtesy of your
humanity, although your eyes are not opened to the
invisible things, your eyes are open to what appears to
be. You have human judgment, judgment of this world.
And you're hoping that we don't make any hasty moves,
so that you don't have to pin judgment upon us. But
God states that in the knowledge of these seals, this
rock of which this church is to be built upon, right?
Not the Pope, but the rock referring to the rock with
seven eyes, you see --
JOHN: See, that's where there's a difference
in interpretation, right?
DAVID KORESH: Exactly, but our
interpretation is true and yours is false. If the
papacy was built upon the rock ~-
JOHN: Who was St. Peter.
DAVID KORESH: No, it wasn't. Christ states
very clearly to Peter -- he just called him Satan,
didn't he? He said get thee behind me, Satan. Who
says thou that I am. And Peter says, well, though art
the Lord, the Son of God. And Christ says, flesh and
blood has not revealed this to me, but my father in
heaven. And upon this rock will I build my church. He
calls him Cephas, little stone. Peter says later on
we're all little stones, but there's one big rock. My
Father, he says, has revealed it to you and on this
I I 5,
rock will I build my church and the gates of hell shall
not prevail against it.
Satan used Peter in the next verse. Christ
says, I must go to Jerusalem and Peter says, not so
Lord. And Christ turned around and said, get thee
behind me, Satan, for you savorest the things that be
of man and not the things that be of God. As long as
we have God the rock as the one who gives us directions
and reveals things to us, we're in harmony with God.
when we turn from the rock and submit ourselves to
human, earthly, sensual, emotional little dictates of
our own mind, then we're following the spirit of Satan.
As long as Peter was looking to God and
looking to the rock, yes, he was a part of that rock,
the great rock in heaven. But when he turned to follow
his own feelings and tell the Lord not so, then he was
of the spirit of Satan. It's something we've all got
to watch. Now, this rock that we lay in Zion, we know
it has a stone, we know it has seven eyes. Yes? It's
a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure
foundation. He that believeth shall not make haste.
Judgment also will I lay to the line and
righteousness to the plummet, and the hail, which comes
from the strong and mighty one, shall sweep away the
refuge of lies and the waters shall overflow the hiding
place. So your covenant with death shall be
I 0 53
disannulled, your agreement with hell shall not stand.
When the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then
ye shall be trodden down by it. Now what's going to
happen?
Well, whatever happens we know in verse 19,
from the time that it goeth forth shall it take you,
for morning --
End of Tape 84!
I I 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #85
3/7/93
7:15 P.M. 8202 P.M.
~ I
i
92O I 2
Tapr 85!
DAVID KORESH: at verse 19 if you've got
one.
JOHN: Oh, I know.
DAVID KORESH: And it says the Hebrew - and
it says when he shall make you to understand doctrine.
Okay?
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. And those who have
transgressed, those whose mouths have spoken contempt
against the truth, those who have not taken heed to the
direction that the Spirit has tried to lead them are
going to find a situation to where they can't sleep
anymore, verse 20. For the bed is shorter than that a
man can stretch himself on it and the covering narrower
than that he can wrap himself in it. For the Lord
shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, like he did
anciently with the Philistines. He shall be wroth in
the valley of Gibeon that he may do his work, his
strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange
act. And it is strange, you know?
JOHN: It's just hard to interpret by many,
right?
DAVID KORESH: No, they'll in - they'll
interpret the act.
JOHN: Oh, it was hard to interpret by many.
Q Q 3
DAVID KORESH: Well, you see, these
prophecies are not to be interpreted by anybody but the
Lamb. Now, therefore, be ye not mockers, lest your
bands be made strong, lest you tie you up -- yourself
up in your own conceit, for I have heard from the Lord,
the God of hosts, a consumption. Do you know what a
consumption is? It's a fire. when something's
consumed. Even determined upon the whole earth. Now,
you may not believe in hell. You may not believe in
paying for your sins -
JOHN: Well, the fire is one interpretation
also, right?
DAVID KORESH: Well, if you knew what all the
other prophets thought --
JOHN: Do you consume food?
DAVID KORESH: Look.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID KORESH: Look, take it in context.
Okay? All the prophets we've heard so far deals with
the Lord coming, flaming chariot, consuming his
enemies.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: Now, this consumption, it's
from the Lord of hosts, is not something to do with
eating. And it's ~- from the whole earth. So give ye
ear and hear my voice and harken to my speech. Now,
O O 4
does the plowman plow all day to sow? Does he?
JOHN: I'm sorry.
DAVID KORESH: Verse 24. Doth the plowman
plow all day to sow? Does the guy get up there in his
field and work all day long break -- does, does he plow
so he can sow some seed? Doesn't he?
JOHN: Sure. He opens and breaks the clods
on this ground.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Yeah, definitely, to
put seed in there, don't he?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID KORESH: And when he hath made plain
the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches,
and scatter the cummin and cast the principal wheat,
the appointed barley and the rye in their place.
Doesn't he? Now, remember Christ said the Kingdom of
Heaven is like a seed sower? That's Christ talking.
This is where he got this parable from.
For his God doth instruct him to discretion
and doth teach him. For the fitches are not threshed
with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel
turned about upon the cummin, but the fitches are
beaten out with a rod - staff, and the cummin with a
rod. Bread corn is bruised, because he will never be
threshing it. You don't go out and thresh bread corn,
do you? Neither break it with the wheel of his cart,
O O 5
nor bruise it with his horsemen. This also cometh
forth from the Lord of hosts, which is wonderful in
counsel and excellent in working.
Now, what did he mean by that? We just got
through looking at a prophecy about a warning to
Ephraim. We find out there are scornful people that
rule God's people in Jerusalem and God makes them to
know for sure that in Zion there is a rock, a
foundation for those who think that they have a
connection with the Messiah. Well, the keynote is is
that this death and this hell, how does it relate to
the fourth seal? Is this death and hell a person? Is
this death and hell a person? What is Christ revealed
as, according to the fourth seal?
JOHN: Pale - a rider on a pale horse.
DAVID KORESH: And his name is what?
JOHN: Death.
DAVID KORESH: Now, do you know what the name
Koresh means?
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID KORESH: It means death. You see, the
name of God is Yahweh, but the way it's actually
pronounced since the first punctuation of time from the
ancient writers, is when it says in the Tenach, thou
shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, it
means thou shall not take his name. His name is
Yahweh. And the way it's pronounced is like this.
Breathing in and out.! Every time you breathe you're
saying the name of God. That's why in Judaism and
stuff they never, they never pronounce it according to
the word form Yahweh. You fix it --
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. So everyone who
breathes is taking God's name and if we live without
knowing his testimony or his word, we're living in
vanity. And we're taking his name in vain. Some
people say, well, when I say goddam, that's taking the
Lord's name in vain. well, now, wait a minute. Let's
break this down. Does God condemn ~ damn means to
condemn. Well, no one has the right to tell God to
condemn anybody, do they? Do they?
JOHN: N0.
DAVID KORESH: No. But God or Got phonetic
sp.!, the German word Got, you know, is another word
from another country, you know. There's no such word
in the Hebrew, God. There's the word, the Adonai,
which means Lord, but the actual proper names of, of
the sovereignty of heaven is Yahweh, El Shaddai, and
then what? That's it. Off of the manuscript. Yahweh
and El Shaddai. But, according to the prophecies God
proclaims to Deuteronomy that he will publish his name
somewhere.
tI Q 7
So when it talks about Koresh, it's a
surname. A surname from God. Now, you get the
concordances and the dictionaries out and you'll find
out that they'll tell you it's from an unused root word
that they don't know what the meaning is. No scholar,
no teacher, no concordance in this whole world can tell
you what the name Koresh means. They don't know. It's
kind of weird, isn't it?
JOHN: No, but you've told me it means death.
DAVID KORESH: Wait a second.
JOHN: Right?
DAVID KORESH: Revelation says Christ has a
name that no one knows but he, himself. And his name
is the word of God. Okay. Now, if it's true that the
proper name of God is Yahweh, which is Breathing in
and out!. when you breathe you go Yahweh, Yahweh,
Yahweh, Yahweh. Okay? What do you do when you die?
What's the sound your body makes when you die?
JOHN: It doesn't make any sound when you
die.
DAVID KORESH: Yes it does.
JOHN: No it doesn't.
DAVID KORESH: Yes it does. You don't know
what you're talking about.
JOHN: Your last dying breath? Is that what
you want?
92
92
>C Q 8
DAVID KORESH: Yeah. What does your body do?
JOHN: Rattle.
DAVID KORESH: Exactly. It goes rasping
breath!, just like that. And unless you're blown to
pieces, everybody does it. And there's a meaning to
that in Psalms 119 called the Alpha and Omega, life and
death is the whole title of God. Havech Koresh is the
name of my father. And my name is David Koresh. I
know - it sounds funny to you, but anyway.
The keynote is, there's a death that's
beloved as the death of all the prophets, is the death
of all those who've lived this life. The righteous
perish Isaiah 57 says. The merc -- are taken away.
None considering the righteous is taken away from the
evil to come. They shall rest in their beds, each one
walking in his uprightness.
There is a sleep and there is a death, which
is not eternal. But to the wicked there is a death
which is eternal. Now, this rock comes up a lot of
different places throughout Isaiah, doesn't it?
Through all the prophets. Have you noticed that?
Okay. Let's go back over here to Chapter 50. Let's
take a look at just a couple of titles and I'll put you
on with these girls, okay?
JOHN: You bet.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Let's see here. Let's
start -- let's
Isaiah. Hello.
JOHN:
over there.
DAVIDI 9
actually start with Chapters 44 of
Somebody must be walking on your cable
KORESH: Yeah. Yeah. Our Israeli
friend just walked on it.
JOHN:
DAVID
here are you
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVIDPablo.
KORESH: Pavla. Okay. It says right
there yet?
Yeah.
KORESH: Okay. Verse 24
44.
KORESH: No, Chapter 44, verses 24.
Okay.
KORESH: Okay. Okay. Thus saith the
Lord, they redeemer, he that formed thee from the womb.
I am the Lord that maketh all things, that stretcheth
forth the heavens alone and spreadeth abroad the earth
by myself. Tha t frustrateth the tokens of the liars
and maketh diviners mad, that turneth wise men
backwards and m aketh their knowledge foolish. That
confirmeth the word of his servant and performeth the
counsel of his messengers, that saith to Jerusalem,
thou shalt be built unto the cities of Judah ye shall
be built, shall
JOHN:be laid, shall be built. Okay?
Um-hum.
9 O 10
DAVID KORESH: And I'll raise up decayed
places and saith to the deep be dry and I'll dry up thy
rivers. That saith of Cyrus, he is my shepherd to
perform all my pleasure. Now, Cyrus is the translated
word of the word Koresh. Do you understand that?
Okay. Now, it says here, perform all my pleasure, even
saying to Jersusalem thou shalt be built, and to the
temple, thy foundation shall be laid.
Now, thus saith the Lord who is anointed.
The word anointed in Hebrew is Mashiach, which means
Messiah. To Koresh, whose right hand I have holden.
why? To subdue nations before him and I will loose the
loins of kings, like I was fixing to do, was going to
make kings crap their britches, you know. To open
before him the two leaved gates, the gates shall not be
shut.
I'll go before thee, make the crooked places
straight. I'll break in pieces the gates of brass, cut
asunder the bars of iron. I'll give the treasures of
darkness, the hidden riches of secret places, that thou
mayest know that I, the Lord, which called thee by thy
name, am the God of Israel. why? Why is this going to
happen?
For Jacob my servant's sake, and for Israel
mine, I have even called thee by thy name, I have
surnamed thee. What's a surname? It's a last name,
9 Q 11
isn't it?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID KORESH: Though thou has not what?
Known me. I am the Lord and there is none else. There
is no God beside me, I girded thee, though thou hast
not known me. Why? That they may know. who may know?
From the rising of the sun and from the west, that
there is none beside me. I am the Lord and there is
none else. wait a minute. what, what direction does
the angel from the east come in Revelation. From the
east, right?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: And he's got the seal of the
living God, right? Sure he does. I form the light and
create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the
Lord do all these things. Well, what's fixing to
happen? Well, drop down, ye heavens, from above, and
let the skies pour down righteousness. That's what
that angel brings in Revelation 10 - clothed in a
cloud. There's nothing more righteous than the seven
thunders, my friend.
Let the earth open and let them bring forth
salvation, let righteousness spring up together, I the
Lord created it. woe on him that striveth with his
maker. Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of
the earth. You know, man can argue with man. Right?
9 0 12
But not with God. Right? Shall the clay say to him
that fashioneth it, what makest thou? Or thy work, he
hath no hands?
woe to him that say unto his father, what
begettest thou, or to the woman. Remember the woman in
Revelation 12? What has thou brought forth? See,
those who argue against God are going to be in big
trouble. Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel,
and his Maker, ask of me things to come concerning my
sons, concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
I have made the earth and created man upon
it. Even my hands have stretched out the heavens and
all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up
~ that's Koresh, right? In righteousness. And I will
direct how many. All his what?
JOHN: Ways.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, over here in 46,
verses 9 --
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: we're just going to do this
real quick. Remember the former things of old, for I
am God and there is none else. I am God, there is none
like me. Declaring the end from when? From the
beginning. How did God create the world? By his word.
How is God going to the world, by his word. In
seven days he created the world, right? And in seven
9 Q .3
seals he's going to destroy it. Uh-huh!
And from ancient times the things that are
not yet done saying, my counsel shall stand and I will
do all my pleasure. Calling a ravenous bird from the
east. Ecclesiastes 12, it says God will rise up at the
voice of the bird. That bird's a man, you know. The
man that executes my counsel from a far country, yea, I
have spoken it. I will also bring it to pass. I have
purposed it, I will also do it. Hearken unto me, ye
st0uthearted that are far from righteousness. I bring
near my righteousness. It shall not be far off and my
salvation shall not tarry and I will place salvation in
Zion for Israel my glory.
Then, of course, 47 is the virgin daughter of
Babylon's going to come to the ground, right? Okay.
Now, it says right here. Let's go over here in
Chapters 48. Okay? Verses 9.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID KORESH: For my name's sake will I
defer mine anger and for my praise will I refrain for
thee that I cut thee not off. Behold I refined thee,
but not with silver. I have chosen thee in the furnace
of affliction. For mine own sake, even for my own sake
will I do it. For how should my name be polluted? And
I'll give - not give my glory to another. So it says
right here. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my
9 C 14
called. I am he, I am the first, I am the last. Mine
hand also laid the foundation of the earth and my right
hand spanned the heavens. when I called on them, they
stand up together.
So all you, assemble yourselves together and
hear. Which among them hath declared these things?
Who only can declare these things? Well, it says
the --
JOHN: The Lord.
DAVID KORESH: ~ Lord, the Lord if - no.
It says the Lord hath loved him, because Christ is the
Lord too, you know.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: He will do his pleasure on
Babylon and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. I, even
I, have spoken, yea, I have called him. I have brought
him and he shall make his way prosperous. So, we know
someone's going to overthrow Babylon, right?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID KORESH: Okay. Now, we get over here
and we find out how this begins to work. Okay? In
Chapters S0 God has some questions about those who are
going to be lost. And it says right here in Chapter
50, verses 2, how come or wherefore when I came was
there no man? when I called there was none to answer?
Is my hand shortened at all that it cannot redeem?