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QELQIION COQES
Information which is properly classified pursuant to
Executive Order, the disclosure of which could reasonably
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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #200
4/B/93 - 4/9/93
11:42 - 10:21
Tape #200! '
JOHN: It was just outstanding. And there
were people there from all over this area. They had
their families there, their children, and the food --
STEVE: Well, what, what are --
JOHN: -- was great.
STEVE: - you trying to say?
JOHN: It was just a super time. I thought
it was something that --
STEVE: And are,
going to have that kind of
JOHN: No, I was
STEVE: - for a
JOHN: -- it was
democracy, you know.and are you saying am I
time in jail --
just saying --
number of years?
kind of indicative of
STEVE: Are you saying I'm going to be able
to come out there and be apart of such a thing and my
JOHN: No, I'm thinking that you --
STEVE: -- family and so forth --
JOHN: - that you've, you've - that
lost the realization that the rest of the world
going about its business.
STEVE: The rest
damn world is going to hell in a handbasket, as
attorney friend of mine said years ago. That'syou've
is, is
of the whole -- this whole
an
what's
3
happening. For those people that cloose to look and
see why they're even breathing, wh-- what gives you the
ability to breathe in the first place? Where does that
power come from? How did you get here, John? Because
people like yourself don't take an avid strong interest
right now today that there is a God and he's into
judgment, he's into knowledge, he's into having you
know what he knows. And if you avoid what he says he's
going to do with this earth, you're go-- you're a lost
man. It's like you never lived.
JOHN: Hey, Steve?
STEVE: You're going to be a blip in time
like you never existed, not even a, a remembrance, not
a thought.
JOHN: Well, yeah. But the --
STEVE: See? So, that's --
JOHN: -- ggggg says something about --
STEVE: -- the God that I'm looking at, that
JOHN: -- how short we are --
STEVE: They could --
JOHN: -- here for.
STEVE: Do you know what a --
JOHN: But --
STEVE: John, do you know what a concordance
is?
4
JOHN: No. I know what an accordion is.
STEVE: A concordance is a chronological
listingbf words found in the giglg. If you look up
the word "fear" -- you should. Get a concordance.
Look up the word "fear." You'll find out through the
whole giglg it says fear God and give him glory. Fear
God; it's the beginning of wisdom; it's the beginning
of life. I mean, if you put --
JOHN: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah?
JOHN: You asked me how I got here, you know,
how did I get on the earth? I, I assume the same way
you did, you know.
STEVE: And how are you going to get off this
mess -- or out of this mess? Because you're subject to
death like I am, to disease --
JOHN: Well, sure I am.
STEVE: Do you have any children?
JOHN: Sure I do.
STEVE: They could be hit by a car. They
could be taken out by AIDS. I mean, one -- this is why
Solomon said it's better to spend your time at a
funeral than it is at a party, because when you go to a
funeral, you see the issues before you of life and
death. You start thinking is that, that individual in
the casket --
5
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- could be yourself.
JOHN: Let, let me --
STEVE: Where is he going?
JOHN: -- let me ask you. Let me ask you
about credit points here. You know? My, my job as,
as, as a negotiator is peaceful resolution. And, you
know, this is not the only affair that I've been to in,
in this regard. And, and I think I've saved a lot of
lives during my --
STEVE: How many negotiators are there? Just
curious.
JOHN: Oh, throughout the FBI?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Numerous. And I --
STEVE: There are?
JOHN: -- and I honestly don't know the
count.
STEVE: So, is that basically what your job
is then? You are firstly a negotiator?
JOHN: Well, when it -- when the -- when
something calls for negotiators, yeah, that's what I
do.
STEVE: I see. Otherwise --
JOHN: I've got other jobs. But this is
probably the most fulfilling. And, and, you know, I
6
think, you know, and I'm not a - I'm not -- I can't
quote scripture to you, but to me that's important and
I think that, you know, if, if you want to say God's
work or would God approve, I think he would. Because I
think human --
STEVE: Well, see, it's not a --
JOHN: -- beings are important.
STEVE: -- guessing -- well, that's where you
and I differ. For me, it's not a guessing game, do I
think, do I feel, what's my --
JOHN: Well, what do you think that it's --
STEVE: -- opinion, what's my theory. I'll
start quoting to you --
JOHN: Do you think God would think that what
I do is important?
STEVE: Do -- would I think that God think
that what you're doing right now is important?
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: What God thinks is important is that
in the final days he's got a revelation of his son that
a lot of people in America -- a lot of people think
this -- I don't call this a Christian nation, by the
way. A lot of people want to say this is a Christian
nation, that's what the Constitution shows. It's not
so. I believe in the rights of atheists, agnostics,
and everybody in between. And when it comes to
7
questions like that, I'm going to always revert back to
the giblg. I'll, I'll quote to you what God says about
you and me and what we are to have as priorities. If
you don't put God first and if you put your family
before him or your job or anything else, you're not
worthy of that God or of eternal life. There's got to
be a trust relationship built upon what God and -- has
done in the past, how he's worked with people in the
past, so you can see a whole progression.
JOHN: You know, Steve, one night we had a --
I got called to a place and a, and a guy had a baby
around the neck and he had a butcher knife and he was
threatening to kill this little baby. And we worked
that out. It took about six hours. But do you think
God would think that there was any value to that or was
that important?
STEVE: God -- look at -- this life is so
temporary. God wants to make sure that you put him
first. This life is of secondary importance, it really
is. The, the part that God wants you to see is that
you actually spend your time searching to know wisdom,
searching --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- to understand what life is all
about.
JOHN: Okay.
8
STEVE: If you put with the priorities that
God lays out first --
JOHN: You mean I should have just walked
away from that situation?
STEVE: Is that what I said, John?
JOHN: I know -- I --
STEVE: I didn't say that, did I?
JOHN: -- I don't think you put much import
on it. You just talk ve--
STEVE: I put -- I put li-- you know, there's
a lot --
JOHN: I deal with individuals and --
STEVE: -- of importance to life.
JOHN: -- human beings. I, I -- you know. I
think you're saying that the big picture --
STEVE: I'm saying -- yes.
JOHN: -- excludes the --
STEVE: I, I want you to --
JOHN: -- that --
STEVE: -- live forever and that little baby
and the man that was holding the baby and your job
trying to have people have more life so that they can
make the decisions that they need to make in regards to
eternal things. If that book is true and God worked as
he did as history shows in the past, well, then those
statements that are called prophetic that pa-- apply in
9
the future, which I believe is today, are going to come
to pass. And the judgment is that you and I look at it
ahead of time and either come into agreement with a God
of that book or we're out of par, out of sink with him.
And --
JOHN: Steven?
STEVE: -- there's something that you don't
know that you need to know --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- and that's what I'm -- that --
I've been trying to share with you.
JOHN: Well, in to the relation of what you
say, what are you doing or, or what can you do to
resolve this?
STEVE: What can I do to resolve this? Well,
I'm -- well, I'm doing what David's God has said to do,
to wait.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: That's all I can do. I mean, I fo-
God -- I followed this for six-and-a-half years. So a
few more days, what's that to me? Because there's a,
a, a judicial system out there? Oh, I'm not -- that
doesn't bother me. I'll go through that.
JOHN: I'm, I'm --
STEVE: And if I'm, I'm -- if I'm left to
languish in some kind of a prison cell or if, if they
l0
take my life or whatever else, I've got to die anyway.
You've got to die. Everybody's got to die. So, that's
not where the prob-- I've got to make sure I'm right --
the only thing I've --
JOHN: Well, you know --
STEVE: -- ever wanted -- I've, I've had a
fairly good life so far, and I, and I do enjoy life.
I, I don't want to die.
JOHN: I, I don't think that you want, your
organization, yourself, or anyone, to be characterized
like a Jonestown, right?
STEVE: Now, what's that got -- what, what
are you trying --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- to say now?
JOHN: You know, that -- you know. Faith
without movement, you know, without something
constructive to show --
STEVE: We are doing something very
constructive. We're fulfilling God's will.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: And if you gave me the time, I'd show
you clearly and you could not -- I'd even challenge you
to controvert that based upon the giglg. But I --
JOHN: Right.
STEVE: - know you could not --
JOHN:
STEVE :
JOHN :
here anyhow. You know,
peacefully resolve this
respect --
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:11
No, I can't do it. Steve, I --
I know you can't.
- I -- that's not my, my position
all, all we're trying to do is
thing. Your faith, I have
Well, for -- as --
-- for that --
I've got peace.
And, and --
Well, it's not -- see, it's not
resolved in the way that this powerful system is
looking at it. Guys like the ATP, these agents,
want our blood.
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
ATP isn't, isn't
STEVE:they
They want our --
Well --
-- carcasses.
Well, we're, we're with the FBI. The
handling this situation. Okay?
No, no. I know. But, I mean, all
you guys have in mind, of course -- I mean, we're not
hurting anybody. You're not being -- I mean, that --
what, what's really happening here? You know, right
now we're a people that came here to study to learn
about God, and that's what we're doing.
JOHN:
STEVE:Yeah.
And an incident happened and, and
12
we're going -- it's going to be resolved. There's no
question about it. We said we would come out, and
that's what we're going to do. But it's --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- always --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- revolved around a thing called
time.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, you know, I need, I need
to deal in realities here.
STEVE: Well, that to me is reality.
JOHN: Let me just leave you with something
from my limited knowledge here. Do you know what a
false prophet is?
STEVE: Yes. Most --
JOHN: And then just --
STEVE: -- definitely.
JOHN: That's where I want to leave it.
Okay? All right? Now, now, what constructively can
you do relative to, to giving me some kind of a feel
for the time-frame we're dealing with here?
STEVE: I, I -- nothing at all.
JOHN: Okay. Well --
STEVE: I -- it'd just be --
JOHN: I need --
STEVE: You know, I don't want to be --
13
JOHN: Then --
STEVE: -- jerking you along or --
JOHN: Steve?
STEVE: -- anything like that.
JOHN: I need, I need to talk to David then,
you know. And it's in his interests also.
STEVE: I -- remember, I called you.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: If you need to talk to him, well, if
he wants to talk to you, he, he will. If he --
JOHN: Well, you --
STEVE: -- don't, he won't.
JOHN: I'll tell you what. Have, have him
call me. Okay?
STEVE: I, I won't have him call you. I'll
tell him that I talked to --
JOHN: How about asking, asking him to call
me. All right?
STEVE: That's, that's - now, we're talking
JOHN: How about requesting that he call me?
STEVE: I'll, I'll do that. I will do --
JOHN: There you go.
STEVE: -- that for you, John.
JOHN: Okay. You know. I mean --
STEVE: Okay.
l4
JOHN: -- there's no reason we can't keep
our, you know, our, our human emotions about us and,
you know, do something --
STEVE: You know, John --
JOHN: -- constructive here.
STEVE: -- if you really -- if you got to see
me face to face, you'd see a smile on my face. You'd
see that I genuinely am concerned about you as a person
JOHN: Well, I'm concerned about you too.
And, and --
STEVE: And, and I really --
JOHN: -- you know --
STEVE: -- I'd love nothing more in this
world than that you make it, that I make it. You might
make it one day and I don't, but I'll --
JOHN: Well, one --
STEVE: -- tell you right now --
JOHN: -- one thing that --
STEVE: -- today I want to make it. I'm not
talking about this earth. I'm talking about --
JOHN: Yeah. I, I know what you're talking
about, the spiritual. But, you know, what, what if,
what if David is wrong? I mean, that, that concerns
me, as one human being to another.
STEVE: And he may be.
l5
JOHN: What, what happens to you?
STEVE: Well, I've got to pick up the pieces
and go on, don't I? But like I --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- told you, John, I've always gone
by a weight of evidence, not by - there's no one that
has all the answers. I've never been satisfied in this
life that someone -- that I've met God. And then
meeting God, that I -- every answer has been there.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: It's not so. So, if you come up --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- with something or you know a
theologian, a minister, a layperson, a good old Joe,
I'm open. I'm, I'm ready to hear.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, what I'm, what I'm, what
I'm working here is with common sense and, and, you
know, if, if you're not -- you know, if you're not part
of the solution, you're part of the problem. That
mentality. Okay? And, and, you know, I think you're
an intelligent man. You obviously are a peace-loving
man. And, and that gives me hope that you'll be part
of the resolution, not part of the problem.
STEVE: Well, I hope so. I mean, from day
one, I mean, obviously no one -- there could have not
been anything worse in my -- all my years that I've
O O
16
lived happen as what happened that February 28th. I
mean, to see people falling down in blood, la-- I mean,
I'm talking about ATP also. I never -- the truth of
the matter is I -- you know, I never saw one person? I
only saw, out of all those people, I did see one person
out of a window laying on the ground. That's all I
ever saw. And from what I understand, they did come
and pick him up and, and he lived, from what I
understand. But, I mean, what took place, those that
died inside here, seeing them and my, my good friend
Peter Hipsman, who I'm the one that met him in Hawaii
and talked with him. He was such a close, close
friend. To see him killed like he was, doing nothing,
I mean -- you don't think that bothers and affects a
person?
JOHN: Well, of course it would, you know.
STEVE: And you want a peaceful res--
resolution? Of course I do. I've never owned a gun in
my life. I've never been into, into any kind of
instrument that harms or hurts people. I never have
been. My dad never owned them.
JOHN: Well, Steve, let me, let me ask you
something then. So, you know, I've only been here
about a week and a half. I think I talked to you when
I first got here. What did you see? Describe it for
me.
I
17
STEVE: What do you mean what did I see?
JOHN: You know, what happened?
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: Tell me about it.
STEVE: ~- I was down at the end of the hall
here. I mean, there's a room where we've got some
computers and typewriters. And Wayne and I were in
there talking. Just before that happened, though, that
Robert Gonzalez had come in and David had sh- I had
sat down with them and listened to what David shared.
He made some pretty strong statements before Robert
left. And, and I was kind of wondering why he made the
statements he did.
JOHN: What, what, what were the statements?
STEVE: Well, you know, I don't want to --
I'll -- they'll -- you'll end up hearing what the
statements were, but there was - you know, statements
were made and I thought, well, that's kind of
interesting. And then Robert said he had to go over
across to his home to have breakfast. And I -- well,
as usual, you know, I t-- went to the door with him.
He went on outside and, and I noticed he went over
there and left within minutes.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And I thought, well, that's strange.
He said he was going to have breakfast. Well, then,
l8
Perry Jones reported something to me about something
that he saw and observed. And, in the process, that's
when we started wondering, well, what's, what's going
on here. And after awhile then I went back to the, the
room where Wayne was, and he and I were sitting there.
And I heard some of the people were running -- I heard,
I heard a few people running around in the building,
but I didn't really -- wasn't too sure what was
happening yet. Then all of a sudden-I heard someone
saying that they heard that someone was, was coming or
there was a possibility or something. Next thing I
know, I heard David, I heard David, and I ~- now,
remember, I never saw these so-called cattle trucks
myself. I never saw them. But all
David going to the door. And I did
door. And I, I heard one or two of
him. But I never saw. But I heardof a sudden I heard
hear him open the
our people with
him open up the
door and I heard him say something to the effect of get
back, there's women and children here, let's talk. And
all of a sudden I heard gunfire from the outside. I, I
actually heard it hit the door. Then I heard just
bang, b-- b-- b-- bang, like that. And then -- that
that's when it all began. And I -- that - already
Wayne and I are screa-- what's going on, what's going
on, we're yelling. And we grabbed the phone. We're
ducking down because bullets actually started coming in
19
through all, all the building through the walls, right
over my head. I mean, I, I'm a -- I'm totally amazed I
wasn't nailed. Totally amazed. And, of course, my
legs started shaking. And it didn't stop. The firing
did not stop from the outside. Ultimately, people
grabbed guns and started firing back. I don't even
know if they knew, if they knew what they were shooting
at even.
JOHN: Where, where were you, Steve?
STEVE: Huh?
JOHN: Where were you safe?
STEVE: Well, no, I wasn't safe, because
there's no safe place. Well, where, where are you
going to be safe?
JOHN: Yeah. I think probably down in a hole
somewhere, you know.
STEVE: Well, exactly. I mean, you know, if
I had been a gopher, I might have been safe.
JOHN: Well, where were you?
STEVE: I was down at the end of the - in a
room with Wayne, and we were -- had been talking. And
immediately we hit 911. Wayne is the first one that
started saying: Call them off. Call them off. Let's
talk. We've got women and children here. You know,
that he was -- his voice was higher than I'd ever heard
before. He was excited. And it wasn't long before we
20
talked to Larry Lynch, who's talking so calm and like
nothing's go-- like -- you know, it was obvious he knew
about these things in advance. And that was irri--
very irritating, and the gunfiring just kept on going
on. I expected to be taken out any time. So did
Wayne. Because they had shot out so many windows and
were shooting through the walls and --
indiscriminately. So, I expected to be tak-- I
honestly thought they were going to take all of our
lives. I really did. I'm not joking. If you would
have been here and seen how this whole thing began and
how it progressed --
JOHN: You know, I don't, I don't -- to try
to get a feel for, you know, your perspective, I don't,
I don't know what the compound is like inside or
anything, you know. Could you describe where you were?
STEVE: No. You know, you guys will be able
to walk in here. The Rangers will. They can look it
over and draw -- make drawings of it and all the rest.
But why -- what's to be gained --
JOHN: Well, you, you won't be --
STEVE: -- for that now other than logistics
for you to --
JOHN: Well, you won't be there then.
STEVE: -- maybe form something to storm us
and attack us or whatever.
2l
JOHN: Oh. Oh. Well, I'm not --
STEVE: I'm not talking about you as
negotiators. I'm talking about these --
JOHN: Yeah. I'm not, not going anywhere.
STEVE: -- these people that --
JOHN: I'm staying right here.
STEVE: I'm talking about -- no, no, no. I
know. You -- when I say you, you know I'm talking
about the agency.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: I'm talking about these guys --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- with the itchy fingers on the
outside that got into the Bradleys like last night and
were revving them and, and acting like they wanted to
run the fence and come right in, into the compound.
You should have seen this guy last night in his Bradley
JOHN: Steve, can --
STEVE: -- in front of the building.
JOHN: That, that can be a, a -- just a bad
memory when this thing is resolved, you know, you know.
STEVE: And you -- did you hear about -- I
reported to a few guys last night how these guys have
been flipping the finger to women here and things of
that nature. I mean, that's why I was asking them.
22
These are FBI? I can understand when you've got young
kids in the military, but these are pro-- supposed to
be professional agents, men of years and experience and
-- I mean, you -- it's something I guess you just don't
expect. I mean, you know, it's quite an experience, I
must admit. It is. It's been quite an experience.
JOHN: Yeah, there's no, there's no excuse
for that, right?
STEVE: Well, if you ever have the
opportunity, why don't you have a, a father-to-son talk
with these boys? I
JOHN: All right. We'll, we'll both do that.
All right?
STEVE: I must say, there's -- let me say
something positive about one of the guys. His name is
Tom. And, and there was a day where I did talk to
Byron Sage. I was standing on the porch. He was in a
Bradley. I never saw him. But later on when they came
to lay a new telephone line, I did speak with a, a guy
that was very courteous. He called my name. He was
very decent. Great appreciation for someone like
himself. I asked him his name. He said his name was
Tom. If you ever talk to a Tom again, tell him - I
mean, when this is all said and done, I'm talking about
when God brings the end to all things, I hope good
things for him, just because in his courtesy -- I mean,
23
number one --
JOHN: Well, if the, if the --
STEVE: We're, we're all at different places
when it comes to God.
JOHN: If what you say is --
STEVE: God only judges you according to what
light came to you, what you did or said. And if you
know nothing else about God, if you're just decent to
your fellow human beings, that has a long way to go for
you in eternal life.
JOHN: Well, I think I've got a little edge
on him, then. Because, you know, I think that this
business that I'm in is -- it makes me a few points.
STEVE: Well, you may have.
JOHN: I mean, you said be decent to other
human beings.
STEVE: But you also have the opportunity to
hear a man who says he knows something like no ones
ever seen or heard before in the 6,000 years of human
history.
JOHN: Well, he should come out and tell the
rest of the world about that.
STEVE: You can hear about it now, John. It
has everything to do with your life and your children's
lives.
JOHN: I think I -- I'm --
STEVE:
it, you're care
life. You look
You'll see that
whatever happens
see what happens
they're, see, ju
in the book what
groups of people
the book, but I
there's somethin24
If you look at Isaiah 49, if you make
-- your children are guaranteed eternal
at Isaiah 49, the last ten verses.
plain and clear. Do you want to know
to children? But God - wait till you
to the wicked's children, because
st like themselves. God's very clear
s going to, going to happen to two
. I mean, I didn't, I didn't create
do believe in it. I believe that
g to that. You know, I mean, you can
know things right now when it comes to physics, the
different scienc
show that this g
before in your l
Anyway, I won't
-- what ti-- it
eat anyway, isn
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
haven't decided.
JOHN:
man to man here.
STEVE:es. Right now you can know things to
uy is beyond anything you've ever heard
ife. Ask him any question you want.
keep you on much longer. I've got to
s getting probably near time here to
t it?
Yeah. It's getting near noon. Yeah.
I'm definitely getting hungry.
What are you going to have for lunch?
Probably some -- I don't know. I
Maybe beef stew.
Yeah. Let me ask you something, just
Okay.
25
JOHN: I hear you're eating MREs in there.
Is that getting old?
STEVE: No. Are you ki--
JOHN: Because --
STEVE: If you -- hey, look'it. If, if I
were to get into that, you guys would be --
JOHN: No. I'll tell you -- let me tell you
something on --
STEVE: If I told you what we had for food,
John, you'd be extremely disappointed.
JOHN: Oh, geez. Don't, don't give me - I
-- no, I was, I was in the Service, you know, and I was
overseas for a year, and I ate C rations just about --
STEVE: I feel for you.
JOHN: -- all the time I was there. And I
had those things memorized. You know? And it, you
know, it just gets old, you know.
STEVE: John, where are you from did you say?
JOHN: I'm, I'm from Tennessee.
STEVE: Oh, that's right. I'm -- that's a --
JOHN: Yeah, not a native, though. You can
probably tell by my accent.
STEVE: Yeah, I know. I can tell.
JOHN: But that's where I'm stationed now.
STEVE: I see.
JOHN: Yeah.
26
STEVE: Where are you from originally?
JOHN: New York.
STEVE: Oh.
JOHN: Not the city though. Not the city.
STEVE: No, no. Upstate.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Well, one of the guys here, that he's
from upstate also, actually, from Syracuse. And he
definitely loves the state. I took - my wife and I
went through there on our honeymoon --
JOHN: Finger Lakes.
STEVE: Exactly. '
JOHN: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's beautiful up
there.
STEVE: Yeah, it is.
JOHN: Winter's a little tough, you know.
STEVE: Oh, I know. I've spent some time in
Wisconsin. I hate winters with a passion. That's why
I was living in Hawaii. I swore I'd never come near
any cold place again.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: But, anyway, you were talking about
food. You wanted to ask me something else about food?
JOHN: Yeah. I was just, I was just going to
get you about the MREs and the si--
STEVE: Hey, they're not bad.
27
JOHN: -- just --
STEVE: Yeah, I --
JOHN: Well indiscernible! --
STEVH: I, I'll tell, I'll tell you the
truth, I could live a long time on them. So, that it's
not a pro-- I, I'm not a person --
JOHN: You know, I was going to offer you a
change --
STEVE: -- hung up on food.
JOHN: I was going to offer you a change of
diet, you know.
STEVE: Well, if you --
JOHN: You know?
A STEVE: -- want to send in a couple of pizzas
or whatever else --
JOHN: Well, you come out and I'll buy the
pizza. You know, I, I'm not --
STEVE: Ice cream and pizza.
JOHN: This is crazy but, you know, when we
get together at the end of the day, we usually eat
together, a bunch of us, and, and --
STEVE: Are you telling me you and I would
sit down for - now, how would that come about? Are
you saying in a cell or what?
JOHN: No. You want to make a deal, shoot,
I'll go to Pizza Hut with you. I mean, you know, you
I O
28
come out of there --
STEVE: Well, how am I going to eat if I've
got my hands shackled behind me?
JOHN: Well, I'm not going to go into Pizza
Hut with some guy with shackles on. You know. I don't
want my reputation to suffer in Waco.
STEVE: No, I don't blame you. I don't blame
you. It's not as -- really --
JOHN: I, I'm kidding. But I want to be
reasonable, you know, and I want to treat you like a
decent human being that I think you are.
STEVE: I believe you do. I believe you do.
And for that very reason, I almost feel like coming out
today. Laughter.! No, I mean, you know, it really --
honest--
JOHN: Steve, don't tell me what's --
STEVE: I'm not. No, in truth, though, John,
in truth, you know what it has to do with. I mean, I
can't -- I don't want to be repetitious. But I, I do
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- believe in the God of that book
and I'm waiting. I am.
JOHN: Somewhere in here --
STEVE: And, you know, I don't have a lot of
patience, and maybe it's, maybe it's for me this has
29
happened or something. I, I don't know. I, I, I need
a lot of virtues.
JOHN: Some- somewhere in here, you know,
there's middle ground where reasonable people can, can
agree.
STEVE: Well, I'm hoping so. I, I believe
so. I mean, I don't have -- I have more trust in you
and what you're telling me than I do in the justice
system. I'll tell you that. I don't see that I'm
going to -- I don't believe I'm going to be getting the
greatest shake in the world, but, whatever -- I mean,
I'm still choosing to come out into the system. I am.
You know, and everybody else will and they're going to.
And even though it doesn't look good, I don't like
what's happened to some of those out there already, I
would like to be able to squawk hard and loud and long,
I really would --
JOHN: That's, that's your --
STEVE: -- about Constitutional --
JOHN: -- privilege.
STEVE: I would rather -- I actually wouldn't
mind giving up my life if ever -- everybody else could
benefit by having --
JOHN: Nobody's asking you to give --
STEVE: No, no. But, you know --
JOHN: -- up your life.
30
STEVE: -- I'm just saying -- I'm an
idealist. If that would guarantee the rights of
everybod -- of yourself for your own freedoms, like
originally as this country was founded. I miss the
principles and the statements of people like Jefferson
and Lincoln and these men. I mean, they came out of a
system of Europe, you know, of course, that was very --
well, is sure was not inducive sic! to creativity and,
and other freedoms.
JOHN: Well, you know, you guys are probably
going to have more PR opportunity to get your point
over than, than anyone else --
STEVE: I --
JOHN: -- I can ever think.
STEVE: -- doubt it. Usually -- and, nah, I
really doubt it. Because once people come out, you
know, they're not heard of. They get -- they --
you're, you're brought into the system, the court
system. You can't speak there. You're -- it's a yes
and no --
JOHN: Yeah. That's why all this media is
here, Steve, you know, because nobody cares --
STEVE: what actually indiscernible! --
JOHN: -- about what you guys want to say.
STEVE: -- the media is going to be able to
come into the jail -- to the cell where I'm at and, and
31
dialogue with me all day long?
JOHN: The possibility exists. You know.
Those are things we can discuss, just like, you know,
they offered David a forum.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: I think there's some -- there -- talk
of a movie and a book and TV and all kinds of other
stuff.
STEVE: Do you know that David's not
interested in any of that -- in honesty, should I tell
you the --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- truth? You know, Ricks has talked
about how David wants notoriety or he wants --
JOHN: Well, I'm not talking notoriety. I'm
talking about --
STEVE: No, no, no, no. But you -- what I'm
-- let --
JOHN: -- spreading --
STEVE: Hear me. If, if I ever -- when I met
David, the guy was already an awesome musician. In his
own right, right now, he's got the ability as a
guitarist, a singer, a songwriter. He's got to be one
of the most creative musicians I've ever heard of in my
life. when it comes to that style of music, you, you
and I might not be into it, but he can play ballads,
32
rock and roll, everything in between. But he's in a
caliber - like - and I'm sure, because you're not
into rock and roll --
JOHN; How do you know that?
STEVE: Well, you might be, but I,.I can't
imagine you would be.
JOHN: I've got to admit I'm, I'm prejudiced
towards certain years, you know.
STEVE: Well, there's a man by the name of
Steve Vy phonetic!, another one by the name of Joe
Satriani phonetic!. These two men are unquestionably
the best guitarists in the world. And David I believe
is in their category, the difference being he's more
creative. On his own he would have already become
famous if he would have wanted that.
JOHN: Umhum.
STEVE: On his own. He's got -- right now,
because I've been managing music with him and have been
involved in the purchasing of instruments and things of
that nature, negotiating in the realms of music. when
I'm in Hollywood, which is the place for musicians in
America, when I'm in Hollywood --
JOHN: Wait a minute. What about Nashville?
STEVE: Oh, well. Yes. That's --
JOHN: I just say that because that's where
I'm stationed.
33
STEVE: I know. I know.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: But, anyway, out there --
JOHN: Got to put a plug in for my state.
STEVE: -- people have to pay to play in the
area of Hollywood in, in many of these venues, but
David does not have to. He's been given invitation.
So, when I heard Ricks saying some of things he is, I'm
thinking -- well, whatever he wants, whatever he wants,
of course. Whatever he thinks it, it takes to do
whatever he wants to do. But the truth of the matter
is, no, David, he, he could have made it any time as a
musician. And he loves music. He has an awesome --
his lyrics are very deep. They're very deep. They're
very intriguing. And he, he has the ability to put
together rhyming words very quickly in songs.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: But, anyway, you know, I've been on
the phone here for a long time. I know you need to get
to eat also. So, we'll be in contact.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: We'll be in the contact. So - and
when I know anything, like I've always told you, I'll
let you people know.
JOHN: All right. I appreciate you asking
Dave to give me a call.
34
STEVE: Okay. I will pass that on.
JOHN: Okay?
STEVE: And I'll do that right away.
JOHN: All right. Thank you, Steve.
STEVE: Okay. Sure, John. Talk to you
later.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
STEVE: Good~bye.
¢¢***
BYRON: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Have you got a
dial tone?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No.
BYRON: No. Why me? Why me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hang up. Look
at your phone --
[Pause, clicking.]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I think you've
got to flip that off.
[Pause.]
[Telephone ringing continuously.]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Well, we better
get a new negotiator. They're not answering you now.
Asides.!
[Telephone continues to ring.]
[Busy signal.]92
J
[Telephone dialed, then ringing
different!.]sounds
[Telephone ringing different than
preceding!.]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He may be out of
the room now, but there was somebody --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Maybe
indiscernible!.
[Telephone continues to ring.!
[Clicking, dial tone.!
BYRON: Hello? Hello?
[Dial tone, clicking.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Dick
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I thi
picked it up.
[Telephone ringing continuously.!
[Pause.]
[Hollow sound.!
BYRON: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Singing.!
BYRON: Hello? Hello? Hello?
[Dial tone.]
[Telephone dialed, then ringing
continuously.]
BYRON: I've got 8:45.
[Telephone continues to ring-1nk they
effort he
thing.
yesterday36
Asides.!
[Telephone continues to ring.]
BYRON: We might as well give it a full-blown
I8.
[Telephone continues to ring.]
BYRON: They start their dailies at 9.
[Telephone continues to ring.]
BYRON: Come on. Steve.
[Telephone continues to ring.]
Asides.!
[Telephone continues to ring.]
[Busy signal.]
[Clicking.]
BYRON: Hello?
[Pause, clicking.]
[Telephone ringing continuously.]
STEVE: Hello?
Crackling on telephone line.!
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
early
STEVESteve?
I can hardly hear you.
Yeah. That's --
I don't know what's wrong with this
Well, we had the same problem
on. This is Byron Sage.
Let me try -- let, let me try calling
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #201
4/9/93
10:21 12:00
Tape 201!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- here. Just a minute.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
[Crackling noise on telephone line.!
[Noise gone.]
BYRON SAGE: Hello?
BYRON SAGE TO OTHER AGENTS: Whatever
happened, it just cleared up.
BYRON SAGE: Hello? It may have just gone
dead.
[Dial tone.]
BYRON SAGE: Hello? Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello. Yeah.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. It's still really bad.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's, it's still bad. It
definitely -- I was just talking with the guy that
usually takes care of the phone and the lines, and he
says that there's no question it's -- the weather --
it's, it's the, the wire itself. It'll do that.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know if we need a
new wire or if it got broke somewhere in between or
something.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. I don't either. It, it
was giving us some problems yesterday, and then all of
a sudden it, it seemed to clear up. Do you recall
3
that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
[Noise gone.!
BYRON SAGE: Are you still there? Steve?
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: That's it. He's off the
line. He's hung up. We need to get a tech guy up here
to listen to this.
[Telephone dialed, then ringing.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello? Hello?
BYRON SAGE: Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. This is, this is
real bad. Just a minute. Hang -- I hope I don't lose
you. Just hang on.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I talked to David and
there's three things he had to say he wanted to pass
on. He didn't like what was said by Bob Ricks. He
said those were ~- that's lies and, and what, what's
been stated about him using four-letter words and all
the other things.
BYRON SAGE: Is this --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He didn't want to deal with
that kind of thing.
BYRON SAGE: Is this from yesterday, Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, this is from just a
moment ago. He
if there's some4
just told me if I get on the phone or
kind of a break where the phone's
working, then he said Passover --there's two events out
of the entire year that are extremely important and
Passover is one. And then he said read the text that
are on the banners that are out
just the three things he had to
BYRON
STEVEthe window. Those are
say.
SAGE: Was that from Habakkuk?
SCHNEIDER: Yes. But there will be
another one hanging out today.
BYRON
talk to him?
STEVESAGE: Okay. Is he available? Can I
SCHNEIDER: I -- not at the moment he
isn't, but I think after - if we can get this phone
going here, there's - I'm going to be talking to him
to see if I can't get him to the phone.
BYRONSAGE; Okay. We're going to have the
press conference here, I guess, in about half an hour.
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Okay.
SAGE: Are you still -~
SCHNEIDER: I'll, I'll try --
SAGE: - listening to that?
SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
SAGE: Are you still able to get that?
SCHNEIDER: I, I can't hear you.
SAGE: Are you still able to listen to
5
the press conference?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Why don't we have our
tech -- excuse me. I'll -- we'll have our tech guys
check the lines from this end.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
BYRON SAGE: But before -- make sure that we
know if you're going to be sending anybody out to check
the lines at that end.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I would.
BYRON SAGE; Because we need to, need to make
sure that the guys up front know that before he --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Yeah.
BYRON SAGE: -- comes out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: There's one guy here that's
real good with that sort of thing and, you know, just
now he was checking to try to get the -- to get it to
where it is now even.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think he probably could
even handle -- in fact, how about if we have them do it
in the next 15 minutes? Can you check?
BYRON SAGE: Sure. We'll go ahead -- we'll
do some checking from this end and, and you'all can
check inside there ~-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. So --
6
BYRON SAGE: -- to see if there's a problem
at that end.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what about right
aside the door here? Because there's a, a length of
about maybe 10 feet of which he probably could take a
real good look at. That's -- the problem's been that
the dog's chewed on spots before.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Let me check before he
goes out, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm sorry. I can't hear
you. ,
BYRON SAGE: Stay on the line and we'll,
we'll get permission from
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
BYRON SAGE: --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
minutes here.
BYRON SAGE: Okay
maybe you can elevate those
have access to them.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
BYRON SAGE: I've
a puppy out there that I --
everything in sight. So --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
BYRON SAGE: -- I-
Ithe people up forward --
Okay. Go ahead then.
to make sure that you can.
I'll, I'll wait for a few
Maybe, Steve, if you can,
lines so the dogs don't
I was thinking the same.
seen that one -- you've got
that's chewing on
Right.
m sure if he gets a
telephone --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
BYRON SAGE: --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
didn't you -- didn't they
BYRON SAGE: NOI think --
cord
take
HeI think your people --
him away in the Bradley
tried to get in. I was
in the Bradley at that time. He tried --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I see.
BYRON SAGE: -- he tried to get in for sure,
but, but they had to kind of shoo him away.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They what?
BYRON SAGE: They had to shoo him away. In
fact, there, there was -- we were a little concerned
that he was so close to the vehicle that he might get
hurt when it started moving.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see. Okay.
BYRON SAGE: But he, he did not go with us,
DO.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. So, you're
checking right now to see about him fixing the line?
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. So, hold on --
swavz SCHNEIDER: Okay.
BYRON SAGE: -- just a second and we'll see
if we can't do that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
BYRON SAGE: Listen, the, the comment that
8
was made at the press conference yesterday about the
four-letter words in --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
BYRON SAGE: -- response to an inquiry? That
wa-- he wasn't talking about recent calls. He's
talking about during the course of the last 40, 41
days. So, if, if David was upset about that being a
misrepresentation of recent calls, he's absolutely
right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I really don't -- see,
that's what I'm guessing. He didn't really say. He
just said he heard the -- someone heard the phone
ringing and I came to the phone. And he says well,
you're going to the phone. Pass this on. And, so,
that's --
BYRON SAGE: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said mention that he's
not happy about any kind of lies that are, that are
given. I think the truth of the matter is he's been
more concerned about the ATF, what David Troy has been
saying --
snow SAGE: Right .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- more than anybody.
BYRON SAGE: And he - of course, Steve, you
and I both know that, that that's not within our power.
But, but --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Well, I mean, you
know, I'm just saying what he wanted to pass on.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. And I'll, I'll in turn
pass that along. But --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
BYRON SAGE: -- you and I need to have that
understanding.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I wanted to hear
this conference. So, are we about -- what, what's
happening with him to go check on the lines?
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. Let me, let me check and
see if we've gotten any word back.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
BYRON SAGE: Are they aware that these --
now, you're only talking about them coming out maybe
just right on the porch right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exac-- right around the
porch area.
BYRON SAGE TO OTHER AGENTS: What's that?
Unidentified voice in background not discernible.!
BYRON SAGE: Okay. The - they're -- the,
the interim instruction is they want to make sure that
he's not going to be touching anything but the phone
line. Is that correct?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
10
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Correct.
BYRON SAGE: Still hold on. We're trying to
get --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
BYRON SAGE: -- some final word from them.
It -- we'll just expect you to call back then once we
get this all worked out. We'll -- I'll expect a call
back from you after the press conference.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Hopefully, within a
ha-- hopefully, right after the press conference.
Let's see if the lines are working any better.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. Because this is --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. So, is he ready?
Can he go out on the porch?
BYRON SAGE: No. HOld On.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. Bra-- Byron?
BYRON SAGE: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to put him on.
This is Graham Smith, so he's --
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Yeah. I've talked to
Graham before.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Here he is. I'm
going to go listen to the conference.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
GRAHAM SMITH: Hello, Byron? It's Graham
here.
BYRON SAGE: Yes, Graham. How are you?
GRAHAM SMITH: I'm pretty good, thanks.ll
BYRON SAGE: I think you and I have talked
before.
GRAHAM SMITH: Yeah. I spoke to you some
time ago.
BYRON SAGE: Do you have any idea what all
the static would
GRAHAM
probably about a
door and noticed
been chewed by a
doorway.be on the line?
SMITH: Well, it was -- I think it
week ago, I, I checked outside the
the line had - looked like it had
dog or it, it either got caught in
BYRON SAGE: Right.
GRAHAM SMITH: But as the line was - thewas
the
outside insulation was broken crackling! -- insulation
inside was crackling! - broken. And I just checked a
little while ago and I noticed one line -- sir?
BYRON SAGE: Okay. No, I understand what
you're saying. It may be when you -- when we do get
permission -- okay. We just got permission for you to
go out, but stay on the porch. Are you still there?
Graham?
GRAHAM SMITH: I can barely hear you.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. They've given permission
for you, but stay on the porch and only touch the phone
line. Okay?
GRAHAM SMITH:
BYRON
little bit
GRAHAM SMITH:
BYRONso the dogs12
Okay.
SAGE: It - maybe you can elevate it a
can't get to it.
Yeah. I'll try that.
SAGE: All right?
GRAHAM SMITH: Okay.
BYRON SAGE: Tell, tell Steve, then, after
the press conference to give us a call back and we'll
be working on our end of the line in the meantime.
GRAHAM SMITH: Okay.
BYRONSAGE: Okay. Talk to you later.
GRAHAM SMITH: Okay, then. Good-bye.
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
we could and, and, and I ~-
BYRON
guys have been checking it from this
double, we'll double-check with themSAGE: Bye.
iiiii
SCHNEIDER: Hello?
SAGE: Steve.
SCHNEIDER: Byron?
SAGE: Yeah. Not much better, huh?
SCHNEIDER: -- hardly hear you.
SAGE: Does --
SCHNEIDER: We, we, we checked the best
it's got to be your end.
SAGE: Hmm. Well, I think the tech
end, but we'll
again.
STEVE
BYRON
have out there,
STEVE13
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
SAGE: And -- how many people do you
Steve?
SCHNEIDER: I'm sorry. I can --
crackling! I'll check again here myself.
BYRON
[DialSAGE: How many people do you --
tone.]
iiiii
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: Gavin called me and said
that they have a tech guy out at CR-1, so maybe we
ought to just send him forward, have him just check the
line all the way up.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. We need to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: Indiscernible!. Did
you hear?
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: No. He just came -- he
just arrived.
[Gap]
[Telephone ringing.]
STEVE
[Noises --
BYRON
[Dial
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Hello?
static, clicking.]
SAGE: Steve? Steve?
tone.]
SAGE: Hello?
SCHNEIDER: Hello. Byron?
SAGE: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it keeps on
off on its own.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. I've got a tech
the, in the room with me now. He's listening
connection. I think they're going to have to14
shutting
guy in
to the
do some
checking from out there from our end at the same time
you're doing some checking from yours.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. How many people
have outside the, the building there?do you
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How many people what?
BYRON SAGE: Do you have outside the building
working on it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: There was only myself and
Graham. That was it.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Because they had reported
somebody was outside hanging a banner or something?
[Noise gone.!
BYRON TO OTHER AGENTS: It's cut off again.
TECH AGENT: It's on his, it's on his, on his
-- it's his phone. It's in the connection from that --
BYRON SAGE: Can you hear me?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, now I can hear you a
little bet-- a lot better.
BYRON SAGE: Hmm. Well, maybe I'll
this particular instrument then.stay on
15
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Hang on here for a
minute while I can hear something.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. That the tech agent here
seems to think that the problem's going to be at your
end.
swsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay.
BYRON SAGE: He's wondering how exactly the
- is there any kind -- you've got the wire coming in
from outside, right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Right. Well, see,
as far as we -- you know, we told you we wouldn't go
much further than the porch, so -- and, plus, by the
way, there -- never was there more than one of us out
there. I went out there while he was on the phone, and
then he was out there while I was inside. So, you
know, we didn't - no more than one person out there.
So -- but from what we can tell, Graham, he looked it
over, and he can't see any problems with it from, from
the point of just where the porch is to the phone.
BYRON SAGE: Huh. Okay. Well, we'll just --
I guess we'll just continue to use this particular
line. Can you still hear me?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I can still hear you
yet.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. I can hear clicking on
the line, which is not coming from this end.
STEVE
BYRON16
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
SAGE: Hold on just a second.
TECH AGENT: How is his phone connected
indiscernible!?
BYRON
you're speakingSAGE: How is, how is the instrument
on connected to the line that we
delivered to you?
STEVE
BYRON
you're speaking
STEVE
real good.
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Pardon?
SAGE: How is the instrument that
on, the phone you're speaking on?
SCHNEIDER: The phone itself has been
SAGE: Is it a plug in or is it screwed
in to the instrument or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's -- let me see here.
Let me take a real quick look here. It's, it's right
into the instrument.
BYRON
STEVESAGE: A plug in or --
SCHNEIDER: No. It's the other type,
where it goes right in.
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
TECH AGENT: Hardwired right in.
BYRON
the instrument?
STEVESAGE: So, it's hardwired right in to
Can you wiggle --
SCHNEIDER: Pardon?
BYRON SAGE: -- wiggle your end of the wire?
17
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right. Okay. Yeah,
I'm -- no-- you know, it doesn't -- it's not affecting
anything.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. I don't hear any popping
or anything.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No .
BYRON SAGE: I, I hear a rooster going out
there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Now, he's, he's trying
another spot here. He's -- on the wall he's got it
worked out. He's - a little bit there.
TECH AGENT: Yeah, that's it.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. That sounded like it
there. Because we weren't doing anything at this end.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. So far -- he's
looking at it right now. There - yeah, there was a
little bit right there. Yeah. Not much though. I
mean - unidentified voice in background not
discernible! -- indiscernible! it's -- we've got a
clearer signal than we've had but it's still not
totally clear. Unidentified voice in background not
discernible.! Let's see. I'm not sure. What, what do
you think? You, you don't think it's anywhere between
like say the porch to'where the line is laying on the
ground then, huh?
BYRON SAGE: Now, they're, they're indicating
18
that it sounds like it's at a box, a junction box, or
the instrument inside.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Pardon? You said it is
hooked ar-- when you look on the ground, you can see
that it is hooked around a lot of like rocks and dirt
and all that on the -- you know, from the point of the
porch --
BYRON SAGE: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- to about where they laid
it out originally.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. But the -- it's my
understanding that they've instructed the, the guys
there on the, on the perimeter not to drive anywhere
near where the line's laid.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I see.
BYRON SAGE: So, that should --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, see, what I'm con-
Byron, what I'm concerned about is I'm wondering if the
dog maybe did chew somewhere else on the line. Because
it -- normally, like in the past we -- this would
happen once in a great while with the lines that were
buried or the other one -- any time it rained, once in
a great while you'd get crackling and problems like
this.
BYRON SAGE: Right. Right. Okay. Here's --
hold on just a second. what my tech guy is saying is
19
that we may make arrangements to go ahead and bring in
a new line to you.
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Okay.
SAGE: When they do that, they'll go
ahead and approach similar to what they did before in
one of the Bradleys --
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Okay.
SAGE: - and we'll coordinate just
having you bring the old line out and maybe even take
it over -- do you recall where -- was it Graham that
went out and picked it up the first time?
STEVE
BYRON
20, 30 feet off
STEVE
BYRON
the same thing,
STEVE
BYRON
to do is
you know,
it's not Q-
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONmake sure that we continue to have a, a
access - means of communication here,SCHNEIDER: It was me.
SAGE: Okay. It was about, what, maybe
to the south of your complex there.
SCHNEIDER: Right.
SAGE: Okay. We'll just end up doing
if that's all right with you.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Thats fine.
SAGE: Okay. Because I - what we need
clear,
that
SCHNEIDER: Right.
SAGE: -- not going to be messed up.
scunsxnsn: Right.
SAGE: All right? So, I'll have them
to --20
STEVE SCHNEIDER: By the way -- before I lose
you. David was - he's not - another reason -- once in
awhile he doesn't want to speak with anybody when
there's things taking place, like what's happened in
the last few days. The guys in
up the -- they've gone over the
and he says the body's probably
right now, because they keep on
it and you can see their tracks
deeper. It was not a very deepthe Bradleys have torn
grave of, of Peter Gent
being crushed even
running over the top of
are going deeper and
grave in the first
place. The first thing he was mad about, he said, was
that originally when we called the 911 and initiated
this and, and talked to yourself and finally Jim of the
ATF, we're the ones that wanted -- and wanted to see
the wounded on your side and everybody taken care of.
It didn't happen on our side, of course. There was
nothing that took place there. But he said at the
same time, there's been such a disregard of even like
-- well, now, originally, we wanted to see what -- how
you people would respect or respond to like Peter Gent,
who was shot, never had a chance, and I -- and they say
in the press conferences that you've offered to take
these bodies off. That is not true. Because we
requested, we, we, we did everything we could to ask
that that would be done, even while his family was in
from Australia.
BYRON
recollection --
-- on the --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
from the,
beginning21
SAGE: Yeah. Steve, first of all, my
I got here about noon or 11:30 on that
SCHNEIDER: Right.
SAGE: -- 28th. Okay?
SCHNEIDER: Right.
SAGE: My recollection was that right
from the beginning, in fact, I know from the
when I talked to you that we've, we've tried
to get the matter resolved and get appropriate medical
care, with the understanding that we can't introduce
the medical treatment into that facility. What we'll
end up doing is
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
That is true.
BYRON
STEVE
it --
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
to do that. We
STEVEwe'll indiscernible! --
SCHNEIDER: Okay. I --
SAGE: -- as soon as they come out.
SCHNEIDER: That, that I acknowledge.
SAGE: Right?
SCHNEIDER: That's the way I remember
SAGE: Okay.
SCHNEIDER: -- also.
SAGE: And, so, we've, we've been ready
re still ready to do that.
SCHNEIDER: I know. But the other part
22
is that, you know, it's - talking about the body,
though, I mean, you know, we -- finally, you guys would
not ta-- even though at one or a couple points you told
us you would, and then when it came right down to it
the agency did not. And, then, since then, of course,
we worked it out where he was -- he had to be buried,
so he was buried out front.
BYRON SAGE: Right .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And then in the process --
now, another -- for -- right up until about or four or
five - four days ago, I would guess, I think it was
about then, they'd always run around the grave. But
now they're going through it and over the top of it.
So, they -- you know -- it --
BYRON SAGE: Well, they may not have -- there
may not be a -- wasn't there a flag or something on
there --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: There were red --
BYRON SAGE: -- previously?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - flowers on it, and they
were there right till the very day that -- people in
the building here observed them going over the top of
the red flowers.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. I don't, I don't think
anybodys purposely trying to desecrate that grave.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, what are they --
23
BYRON SAGE: But we can --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You can't even find it now
because it's so -- it's bur-- now it's nothing but all
mud and it's tracked and tore up --
. BYRON SAGE: Steve, what we need to do,
though, is, is to -- you, you mentioned yourself that
it's probably a fairly shallow grave. We're going to
need to exhume that, that - the remains of Mr. Gent
anyhow and properly -- provide him with a proper
burial.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Right.
BYRON SAGE: You know, I, I think that was
the intent all along, that this was --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It was.
BYRON SAGE: -- just kind of a -- an interim
-- and I can remember us talking back and forth as far
as how we can get that accomplished. You're absolutely
right. There was a great deal of, of discussion about
it and so forth. The bottom line is the only way we
can get it handled in a proper fashion in a long-term
fashion is, is when this matter is resolved and we can
go ahead and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Who is -- can I ask you --
Byron, who was the spokesperson for your agency the day
of the press conference? Because I -- when I - by the
time I got to it, he had already been introduced.
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
A C Schwein.
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE24
SAGE: Today?
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
SAGE: It was Mr. Schwein phonetic!, S
SCHNEIDER: Oh, Schwein. Okay.
SAGE: Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I mean, I was quite
amazed at some of his statements, but even the, the
spirit and the attitude about getting those that
murdered the agents, the four agents --
BYRON SAGE: Well, we all know that there's a
loss of life on both sides. Okay? And, and that all
needs to be sorted out. I agree with you. I don't
think we've ever disagreed on that at all.
STEVESCHNEIDER: I, I'd say ~- I'm -- you
know, my ~- your heart about sinks down to your stomach
when you hear -- you see how adamant the guy is, the
spirit. I never -- whoever wanted to see one of those
poor human beings die in
come to take our lives?
shouldn't be doing this,
want me to say anything,
Truth is truth.the first place? Why did they
I mean, I, I got -- I
because the attorneys didn't
but the - I don't care.
I saw Perry Jones. He, he - man, he
was hit in the stomach and the leg right from the time
they fired through the door. The guy never had a
chance. Then Ifind out later about Jadine getting hit
25
right on her bed. And I -- this is what I was telling
them the other day. I --
BYRON SAGE: That was --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: To tell you the truth, I
wanted to
angry. Isay something from day one, because I was
was extremely mad.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. That was Jadine Wendell
that was on --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
came out. She
ones to go out.
BYRON
STEVESCHNEIDER: Yes, it was.
SAGE: -- the bed?
SCHNEIDER: You bet it was.
SAGE: Okay.
SCHNEIDER: With the four children that
- I think her children were the second
SAGE: Okay.
SCHNEIDER: And, I mean, now -- and
they can say what they want and they don't have to
verify -- well, they'll find out it's the truth.
BYRON SAGE: Well, you understand what
they're saying there, that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I, I --
BYRON SAGE: -- that there has to be --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's just the attitude and
the spirit of the -- I tell you what, it makes me
extremely angry
26
BYRON SAGE: Hold on just a second. We're
getting a lot more static again.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
BYRON SAGE: While I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I -- yeah, excuse me. I
don't mean to get that way, but, you know, I knew these
people and --
BYRON SAGE: No, I, I can understand fully
why you're --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And they were, they were
sitting in here that day r-- I -- we heard a report
also about the undercover agent mentioned to the --
something to the effect that he wanted to call off or
said that the thing should not continue through, that
he advised against it.
BYRON SAGE: Uh-huh.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I hope --
BYRON SAGE: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that, I hope that's
really true, because we -- I'll tell you the truth,
Byron, we liked the man, Robert Gonzalez. We liked
him. I, I still do.
BYRON SAGE: I understand that. You've
mentioned that several times. Steve, hold on just a
second.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
27
BYRON SAGE: The tech guy that's here wants
you to, to jiggle the wire again on the phone and then
up by --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
BYRON SAGE: You mentioned you had some sort
of a box on the wall?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. He does. He tried
-- he was trying to make it as stable as possible. So,
just hang on a minute. Boy, it's sounding real good
here now. No-- I mean, this is --
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. There's, there's not any,
any static on the line at all.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, there isn't. That's
strange. Just a minute.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where's
Graham?
STEVE TO GRAHAM SMITH: Graham, there's no --
now, all of a sudden there's no -- nothing's changed,
but now it's -- we've got a clear signal out of the
clear blue sky.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. We haven't done
anything here different, Byron.
BYRON SAGE: Hmm. Yeah, I don't why it would
be so sensitive all of a sudden. '
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Exactly. Now -- all of a
sudden all the static just, bingo, it's just gone.
28
BYRON SAGE: It -- there must be some--
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are you sure it's not --
it's got to be outside or your side, because, you know,
we're indoors and there's nothing that's changed.
BYRON SAGE: All right. This is a -- it's
not a portable phone or anything that you've got,
right? It's, it's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no. It's the regular
table model. It's sitting right -- we've got it --
here it comes -- here comes --
BYRON SAGE: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: the static again. I
don't get it.
BYRON SAGE: Are you moving at all when
you're talking or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No.
BYRON SAGE: -- sitting down?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I'm right here in one
spot.
BYRON SAGE: Is it -- what type of an
instrument is it, a Bell Telephone type instrument
or --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's a General Electric
telephone. It's push-button. It's real solid. It's
been used for year -- or, you know, the last two years.
We checked them -- all the phones that we had, and this
29
seemed to be the best one, that it was not at all
sensitive.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Would, would you send
that out for us to look at it if we run the, the new,
new line up, just to see what kind of problems there
are?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you're not going to
bug it, are you?
BYRON SAGE: No. What we're trying to do is
get a clear signal into you so that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. He said -- like he
said, Byron, we really don't need a new phone. If
any-- the only thing it's been so far, the only
problems that Graham has checked on and found, has been
in the lines, the wires itself, right to the phone.
Either they're broken, dogs have chewed on them, or, or
they're, or they're like the -- they've been cut or run
over by the Bradleys.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah. But you're saying that
that wire runs actually into the instrument, it's not a
clip-in type of --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Y-- no, it's not a clip-in.
It does run into the phone. Two of the phones that you
did send to us, of course, and two or maybe three, were
the same. They were not clips or anything. They went
directly into the phone.
30
BYRON SAGE: Hmm. Well, I don't -- as long
as it stays halfway clear like this, we can continue to
communicate. But --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
BYRON SAGE: What's -- also, in the mornings,
I'm here in the morning early. We tried to call you
several times this morning before your daily at 9:00.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
BYRON SAGE: But can you hear this -- the
phone ringing when we call --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Normally we can. But there
-- apparently there -- I don't know when the problems
started with the phone, because it was clear yesterday
when I was on it, so I, I'm not sure what took place.
It is -- it's definitely strange. Pl-- David, he, he
was very unhappy about, you know, what was stated about
him, of course, and that's when the banner came out.
He said let's put a banner out. This, this has got --
this is enough of this kind of thing. He's actually --
BYRON SAGE: Is there a new banner out now?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. But it's nothing to
do with the FBI or anything like that. We pulled that
one back up again.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. You -- the last banner,
as I understand it, said something about the FBI and
lies and so forth.
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE31
SCHNEIDER: About what now?
SAGE: About the FBI and us --
SCHNEIDER: It said that
SAGE: -- having lied to you?
SCHNEIDER: NO. What it said was FBI,
God sees your lies. Habakkuk 3, verse 14.
BYRONSAGE: Right. But, Steve, one thing
that, that I'm proud of and that I think I've mentioned
to you several --
STEVE
BYRON
face --
STEVE
BYRON
Everything --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVESCHNEIDER: Yes, but -- and that --
SAGE: -- times, both at face to
SCHNEIDER: -- that wasn't --
SAGE: -- is we have not lied to you.
SCHNEIDER: I believe that.
SAGE: -- we've told you is --
SCHNEIDER: Byron, I cannot --
SAGE: -- is straightforward.
SCHNEIDER: I believe that. I agree
with you. I don't believe you have. Seriously. I
don't. But there's those that are speaking in your
behalf at the press conferences, like Ricks, Schwein
and Swenson who are -- they are -- they're like
aspiring comedians or something.
BYRON SAGE: Yeah.
32
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And they've made statements
that it's better not to say anything if they don't have
the facts. They know that. But if they can bring
reproach on us and make us look like the loonies they'd
like to have us, and if that's the way we're going to
be processed also, well --
BYRON SAGE: Now, Steve, you know the bottom
line on that one, right? If you come out, then you can
be making your own statements.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I - you know, I --
BYRON SAGE: we've asked you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm going to, I'm going
t0 --
BYRON SAGE: - to do that now for 41 days.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Byron, you, you know, I'm
going to be coming out, but I don't -- I really don't
believe a whole lot of that. I don't -- I think I'll
be stuck in a cell. Press will not have access to me.
And even if they did, they're going to --
BYRON SAGE: You've got access --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- they're going to want
something --
BYRON SAGE: -- to a phone.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They're going to -- well,
Byron, you know they're going to want some sational
sic! story, sensational, that -- and asking questions
that have nothing to do with what we're about and, and
the truth of the issues.
BYRONSAGE: But, see, the point is, Steve,
that you'll have control of that. We -- our position
here is not to be standup comedians or anything else
Our position is not to give daily press conferences.
Our position here is plainly and simply to try to get
this matter resolved.
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: And I agree with you.
SAGE: And as soon as youall come out
then you can give your own press statements. We've
got --
STEVE
as --
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
to help resolve
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
is such a
innocent, being
And now I
maybe the
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Yeah. I'm -- you know,
SAGE: That's not their job.
SCHNEIDER: -- as much as I've got --
SAGE: Their job is commanders trying
SCHNEIDER: Right.
SAGE: - this matter. Okay?
SCHNEIDER: As much, as much as there
turmoil inside me because of me being
attacked. My life was on the line.
get to go spend minimum six months in jail,
rest of my life. And for what?
SAGE: See, we don't know --
STEVE
BYRON
that until we -
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE34
SCHNEIDER: Because of - huh?
SAGE: Steve, you're not going to know
until you --
SCHNEIDER: NO, but I, I --
SAGE: - come out and get --
SCHNEIDER: -- -- can already see
SAGE: -- this matter into the
SCHNEIDER: -- I can already see enough
with how, I mean, old ladies are charged, like
Margaret, who is a -- I mean, a nice little Japanese
woman from Hawaii. I've known her for years. And to
think she's been charged with all -- I mean,
incredible. Absolutely incredible.
BYRON SAGE: Steve, everybody's situation in
there is going to be different. You and I both --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
the --
BYRON
STEVESCHNEIDER:
SAGE: --Yeah --
know that.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Mine is going --
SAGE: In fact --
SCHNEIDER: -- to probably be one of
SAGE: Well, wait a minute.
SCHNEIDER: -- worst, just because I've
been a spokesperson.
BYRON SAGE: No. I think you've done a great
deal to try to get this thing down the line and try to
35
get it resolved. And you've done, you've done a good
job of that. But it's time now to, to bring this to
closure. It's time to, to bring yourself out and the
other people out there so that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I agree with you, Byron.
But, see --
BYRON SAGE: Well, then let's do it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. But the --
BYRON SAGE: Steve, you and I can do that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Byron, but the whole
thing --
BYRON SAGE: You and I both know we can.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- yeah, but the whole --
you, you, you don't unders-- I know you're not going to
understand until that -- and unless and until hell
freezes over that Bible is true. We, we haven't moved.
It's not because we don't agree with you, Byron.
You've got to understand that. You've got to. I mean,
the only reason why I left my beautiful home in Hawaii
to come to this dump is because I do believe in the
Bible and I believe that this man -- I can't con-- I
honestly tru-- I've never had a problem with taking to
task Lutheran scholars, Catholic scholars, Methodists,
Baptists. I've had no tr-- I'll sit down with those
guys morning, noon, and night.
BYRON SAGE: Well, when will he come out and
36
sit down with them --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
f-- the --
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Well, he honestly wants --
SAGE: -- morning, noon, and night?
SCHNEIDER: -- to. I can tell you the
I know he's --
SAGE: But, Steve, he --
SCHNEIDER: - sincere. I --
SAGE: Steve?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
SAGE: Do you understand the position
that he continues to place you'al1 in, by not --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
look'it, even when the attorneys
and frank and honest with them.SCHNEIDER: I realize that.
SAGE: -- coming out?
SCHNEIDER: I do realize that. But,
came, he was so open
They said it's in your
best interests to come out as soon as possible. Do you
know we both agreed with them?
BYRON
STEVESAGE: Okay. But then --
SCHNEIDER: And then they said to us we
realize you've got a thing here with God, it's a
religious thing. We see that. And they says well, can
you ask your --it was on that Thursday. Can you -- a
week ago. Can you ask your God -- can you, you -- and
he says I'm going to. I will most definitely. He says
I want to myself. And, so, then -- and he did. He
37
called me in and said Steve, wouldn't you know, it's
the same answer I've gotten. Well, and I know it's
true, because, see, be- long before this happened,
long before this happened, I've travelled with the man.
And he won't do anything without being advised by the
very one that showed them all of the prophecies back in
'85. It was a, it was a supernatural experience he
had. But who's going to believe that? Only those that
take the time to hear if it's verified by the very book
he says he believes in.
BYRON SAGE: Steve, who are you waiting on?
Are you waiting on --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I'm waiting --
BYRON SAGE: - on God or are you waiting on
David?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm waiting on God. But,
see, if you read throughout the giblg, you know, the
prophets were the ones that came to Israel who thought
they knew God and had to walk with God, but the
prophets came saying you're, you're this, you're that,
God's going to destroy you. And God -- if you look at
Second Peter, Chapter 1, verses 19 through 21, those
three verses, Byron, you'll find out that God has
chosen men and women, contrary to what you and I think,
throughout the ages, given them inspiration, and it has
always been in line with those that have preceded
38
before them, the prophets, the apostles of old. So, if
David's out of sink with the apostles and prophets,
there are tests in the giblg, Isaiah 20, Jeremiah 28,
verse 9, Matthew 7, verses 15 through 20, that test
this kind of phenomena by those that came before, those
that have preceded. So, I've tested and retested this
man over and over again and I can't find -- I mean, and
I've tried. Like I've told many other negotiators,
this is a day-byday thing with me. I don't make up my
mind adamantly, you know, like say a month ago or
yesterday. It's a new day today. I'll look at the
facts, the information I have, and, and make a decision
based on what's before me. And like what you're
bringing up, I agree with you. I, I think you have
been honest. I think you've been -- I really believe
that. I think you've been sincere. I know that, of
anybody I've talked to, you've been very onthe-line,
very clear in your language, your speech, and so forth.
I think you've made as much or more of an attempt than
anybody.
BYRON SAGE: Well, I think you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And --
BYRON SAGE: -- and I have got a great deal
invested in this. Okay? And I still stand ready to do
whatever I can to meet --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe that Byron.
39
BYRON SAGE: -- meet you more than halfway
down the road.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe that.
BYRON SAGE: But we've, we've -- you know, it
-- I, I've really got a genuine concern, Steve, that
either, either God, as David perceives him, has
abandoned him, which I don't believe, or David has --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
BYRON SAGE: --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
me. He's told me -- it's,No, because he's still --
abandoned God.
-- he's still speaking to
it's --
BYRON SAGE: He's getting audible messages
from God?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
BYRON
STEVE
like you're talk--
I said, lookit, I
kind of phenomena. I says
of people claiming to have
said all my life I -- when
that manner, those are the
off the wall, and I says -
you also. So, I says, so,
Describe to me how you get
because one thing is true.Audible --
SAGE: Is that what you're saying?
SCHNEIDER: -- you -- like you are --
I -- I've -- years ago I asked him.
says, David, I don't believe in this
, I've always been skeptical
dreams and visions and -- I
I hear people talking in
ones I look
- and that's
what's your
messages or
One time Iat like they're
the way I treat
experience?
how you're --
sat down with
him in Carolina
awesome logical
four ministers,40
and he opened up the most deep, most
study, and everybody there, three or
they were all astounded. Later on in
the evening when I was alone with him with another
person, we said to him what's it like? How are you
able to do this? I mean, how possibly? And he went on
to say it's like while he's given a study, it's like
he's looking at a colored vision with the sounds, the
smell -- it's like being there. And he's describing
what he's seeing. Then he went on to say how he --
its like hearing an audible -- he hears an audible
voice. He'll ask God what shall I do about this, what
shall I -- God'1l usually say -- tell him -- or the
most frequent answers he's gotten through the years of:
trust, my son. Or he'll be told: wait. Or a third
thing, I can't remember what it was, but mostly trust
and wait are the two that he gets more than anything.
And, of course --
BYRON
of come out.
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONSAGE: We need him to get into a mode
SCHNEIDER: No, I know that.
SAGE: You know, face --
SCHNEIDER: He realizes --
SAGE: I mean, even --
SCHNEIDER: He realizes that himself.
SAGE: -- even -- Steve. Even Christ
41
went forward to, to meet with the magistrate, with the
Sanhedron, with the, you know, with Pontius --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But --
BYRON SAGE: -- Pilate and so forth.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But do -- wait, wait, wait,
now. And I'll -- in response to that, Byron, now,
you're someone at least believes in the giblg, so if
you take a concordance and you look under the word w--
"time," you'll -- and look that word "time" up in
relation to the book of John, which gets into Christ
being taken and going before the political sphere,
you'll find out that the word "time" is repeated so
many -- Christ says my time is not yet, my time is not
yet. How did he know? How did he know, day by day,
when his disciples wanted him to do certain things? He
even said to -~ in Matthew 16 to Peter, get thee behind
me, Satan, because moments before he had said upon thee
is my church founded and so forth. He was really
talking about himself. But Peter had said you are the
son of God. You are the one. And then later on -- and
just moments later, he says get thee behind me, Satan.
Because he said, you know, he had to do certain things,
certain things were going to happen to him. He was
aware of those things in advance because he was
inspired. So, see, the same with David. There is a
time for all this. There's a 6,000-year timetable
42
that's coming to -- is winding down right now. David's
totally into --
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
have a 6,000-year timeframe. Do you
STEVE
BYRON
to what --
STEVE
that it's
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON-- that's 6,000SAGE: Steve? Steve?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
SAGE: You understand that we don't
SCHNEIDER: No, no --
SAGE: -- have any kind of a context as
SCHNEIDER: No. I'm, I'm telling you
years --
SAGE: No. I, I know exactly --
SCHNEIDER: -- is indiscernible! --
SAGE: -- what you're referring to.
SCHNEIDER: -- over.
SAGE: I understand exactly what you're
referring to. But we're looking at 41 days now and
there's, there's a limit to the timeframe that you and
I are faced with. Do you have any feel, and I mean
genuinely, do you, Steve, have any feel for what type
of a time-frame
STEVEthat, that David's looking at?
SCHNEIDER: Not even in the -- he
doesn't even, because I've asked him repeatedly. On a
day-by-day basis I'll go and sit down with him and
he'll open up studies that continue to astound me, but
at the same time he says he is anxious himself. And,
in fact, I'll tell you the truth, he keeps on --
get into the past. He'll get into how he's been43
he'll
led.
He'll get into details. It doesn't matter if he
experienced embarrassing thing that are, are
embarrassing to
-- he, he doe--talk about to other individuals. He'll
he exposes himself. He'll open himself
up. But he -- because he wants to get to the bottom
line, what's the truth. What, what's God going to do?
What of all the prophets? What are their testimonies?
How do they harmonize? What, what's God's ultimate
message to a lost world that thinks they know God but
their lives don't show it? What's God going to do with
us all?
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
Step back from this, from the position that you
yourself in. Put yourself in my position for a
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
you.
STEVESAGE: Steve, let me ask you to do --
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
SAGE: -- something, okay?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
SAGE: Just picture in your own mind.
find
moment.
SCHNEIDER: I have.
SAGE: And I, I've tried --
SCHNEIDER: Many times.
SAGE: -- to do the same thing with
SCHNEIDER: I believe that.
O
BYRON
this. Is it not -- don't you
is very comfortable for David
all he has to say is: my God44
SAGE: Okay. Step back and look at
feel that it is, that it
to be in a position where
hasn't spoken to me yet.
So, he doesn't have to face up to the fact --
STEVESCHNEIDER: Of course I've -- Byron, of
course I've thought --
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONSAGE: Well, but do you --
SCHNEIDER: Frequently.
SAGE: -- realize, do you realize what
a position it puts you and the people that you help
to --
STEVE
BYRON
inside?
STEVE
1 --
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
think about the
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
-- listen, I'veSCHNEIDER: I most certainly do.
SAGE: -- to facilitate ge-- being
SCHNEIDER: But you've got to remember
SAGE: Judy?
SCHNEIDER: I do.
SAGE: I mean, you know, you've got to
SCHNEIDER: Byron, I have.
SAGE: -- people that you --
SCHNEIDER: Do -- you don't think I do
been with this man for six-and-a-half
years, so I know --
45
BYRON SAGE: I know you've got quite --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Do you --
BYRON SAGE: -- an investment, but you need
to realize --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, not only -- I'm not
talking about the -- in regards to investment. I'm
talking about if a person even has any intelligence at
all, any insight, any -- by observation -- now, you've
got to remember, I've dealt with people from all walks
of life, like you have. And one of the first things
that'll pop into your mind or my mind is what is a
person's motives when they give the body language they
do, when they speak in the manner they do. I mean, I'm
always wondering what's the motives. You're always
looking and -- for insight into another individual.
So, with David I've been extremely critical through the
years. That has not even stopped as of even two nights
ago. I mean, I'm listening to him open up something
from the giblg, but inside -- I mean, I'm still this
human being that I've always been. On the other hand,
I want eternal life, but I'm still a realist. But you
have to understand how, how it's based on the giblg,
even though it seems so strange to you. But the truth
is I've been around him enough to see -- and how he
operates, what he does, why he does. I believe he is
sincerely ge-- if you could hear him -- or if you go
0
back to some of
always perk him46
those tapes, the one thing that'll
up is if he can not tell you about the
giblg but show you how it fits together. He wants you
to surpass this earth and, and all that it has. He
wants you to have the glories that never end. So, the
truth is he himself -- he was telling me he is anxious
himself to come
ever got in his
-- now, you canout. He can -- you -- the only rest he
l~- in the last ten years, he told me
take it or leave it -- was when they
were arrested in '87. He -- the, the one good solid
night's rest he
BYRON
STEVEhad was when he was in a jail cell.
SAGE: I understand.
SCHNEIDER: And he, he told me the
other night he was looking forward to that aga-- he
says -- and that's why he keeps on presenting this
before God, over and over again. And,
is nothing he is staying in here for.
to be gained.
BYRON
this resolved.
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
understand. Heno, he -- there
There is nothing
SAGE: Then let's come out. Let's get
We can get it --
SCHNEIDER: But he has --
SAGE: -- done right now.
SCHNEIDER: You, you -- see, you don't
had an experience between '81 and '2
that -- I'll let him tell you about it. It was the
most terrifying, horrible experience. It lasted for
47
about a year. And he says that he'd never wish it on
any human being. He doesn't have an enemy in this
world that he'd
BYRON
to him.
STEVEever wish that experience on any one.
SAGE: Steve, is he there? Let me talk
SCHNEIDER: He's not. No. I'm, I'm --
in fact, I'm down near the door right now.
BYRON
possibly be?
STEVE
BYRON
get some things
STEVESAGE: Well, how far away can he
SCHNEIDER: You --
SAGE: Let me talk to him. We need to
resolved here.
SCHNEIDER: Byron, he's quite a
distance. And he already told me when -- I asked him,
I says, do you want to talk with them? And he says,
no, I don't. But he says, you go ahead or --
BYRON
accomplished, Steve?
rapport, but rapport
door. Okay? It may
and it has done
STEVE
want to talk to
BYRON
get it done.
STEVESAGE: How do we get anything
You and I have, have a good
is not going to get you out the
help. It may lead us to the door,
that before.
SCHNEIDER: He's told me he does not
anyone unless they --
SAGE: Well, then, he doesn't want to
SCHNEIDER: No, no.
48
BYRON SAGE: He doesn't want --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He -- no, wait --
BYRON SAGE: -- to get this matter resolved.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You didn't let me finish.
Byron, you didn't let me finish. Unless he can bring
in what he is, and that's the Bible. I mean, he'll
talk about that, but always in relation to the Bible so
you can understand where and why.
BYRON SAGE: Steve, let me explain something
to you. If it hasn't been done -- I know I haven't
done it, at least not recently. So, let me explain
something to you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
BYRON SAGE: -- for my own sake so that you
and I are on an even keel here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Go ahead.
BYRON SAGE: I've got a great deal of respect
for your beliefs. I have -- one of the main things
that I've committed my, my life to as an FBI agent is
to be able to protect an individuals right to have a
freedom of religion, freedom of speech, all the
Constitutional rights that you and Wayne and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I like what you --
BYRON SAGE: -- I discussed.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- say more than anybody
I've -- I'm, I'm glad you're able to speak like you are
49
in the manner you are. I, I --
BYRON SAGE: But --
STEVE
BYRON SAGE: -- what I'm telling you
common with everybody that's, that's been here
to work with you over these last six weeks.
I, I absolutely
no one is here trying to interrupt that right.SCHNEIDER: -- and indiscernible! --
is,~is
trying
I guar--
guarantee that. But the point is that
Do you
understand? Nobody is here trying to interrupt that
right.
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Well, what --
SAGE: Just because we --
SCHNEIDER: -- I hear to --
SAGE: -- don't, just because we don't
want to sit down --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: When I hear those
spokesperson for yourself -- I mean, now, it's
different talking to you and talking to some of the
negotiators. Well, when you hear some of these people
like Ricks or especially these ATP agents --
BYRON
off --
STEVESAGE: Now, now, we're getting a little
SCHNEIDER: Hold --
BYRON SAGE: Let me, let me explain to you
what I was trying to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Man.
BYRON SAGE: -- to, to get at.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I didn't see, I didn
in those men --
BYRON SAGE: Steve --
STEVE
concern for the Constitution and its principles
whatsoever.
BYRON SAGE: Well, that may be your50
t. SEE
SCHNEIDER: -- any kind of respect or
perception. I don't think it's accurate, but the --
you know, you've got your right to believe that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How well do you know
ATP, though?
BYRON SAGE: well, I'm not --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How well do you know
men?
BYRON SAGE: Steve, I'm not speaking --
never have been here speaking for the F-- or the
What I'm speaking for is the FBI. Okay? Let me
you this --the
these
I
ATP.
tell
STEVE SCHNEIDER: David has said good things
about your agency. In fact, even a couple nights ago
we were talking and -- at times you wonder, because of
some of the things you hear through the press
conferences --
BYRON SAGE: Steve, let me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Go ahead.
BYRON
trying --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON51
SAGE: -- let me get back to what I was
SCHNEIDER: All right.
SAGE: -- to explain to you before.
SCHNEIDER: All right.
SAGE: When, when David wants to come
to the phone and, and discuss religion and we tell him
that we're not here to discuss religion, that's not
because we don't have a respect for it. It's
because --
STEVE
me --
BYRON
finish.
STEVE
BYRON
to resolve a, a
STEVESCHNEIDER: No, no. I -- no, believe
SAGE: Let me, let me finish. Let me
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
SAGE: It's because we're here trying
standoff. Okay?
SCHNEIDER: But he's telling you you
can't do that without the Bible, because we were here
before we were attacked February 28th for certain
reasons based on the Bible, Byron.
BYRON
STEVE
that.
BYRON
STEVESAGE: And, and Steve --
SCHNEIDER: You've got to understand
SAGE: Steve. Steve.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
52
BYRON SAGE: You could -- you will be there
after this is resolved addressing your --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: No, I won't be.
SAGE: -- your -- let me finish.
SCHNEIDER: I'll probably be --
SAGE: Let me finish.
SCHNEIDER: Go ahead.
SAGE: You will be there after this is
all resolved and you all can get back to a normal life.
You can continue --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Oh --
SAGE: -- with --
SCHNEIDER: -- Byron.
SAGE: Let me finish. You can continue
with your exercise of re-- of religious beliefs.
Nobodys trying to interrupt that. What we are going
to have to do, and if, and if you're a realist, and I
think you are, you realize that we've got to work
through some of
were created on
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
parole at best,
BYRON
fact? Is thatthe problems that were created that
the 28th of February.
SCHNEIDER: I'm not getting back here.
SAGE: What did --
SCHNEIDER: Life imprisonment without
probably.
SAGE: Do you know that as a matter of
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
you the truth.S3
SCHNEIDER: You bet.
SAGE: Well --
SCHNEIDER: Unless - I mean, I'll tell
What I'm seeing and hearing right now
and how the powerful -- how powerful these agents are,
like the ATF and so forth, how adamant they are -- I
mean, there was a time when this Constitution
guaranteed all our rights, but --
BYRON
Con-
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
Amendments haveSAGE: And it still does, Steve. The
SCHNEIDER: I see --
SAGE: Let me --
SCHNEIDER: -- I seen a --
SAGE: Let me express this to you --
SCHNEIDER: Fourth -- Second and Fourth
been so trompled-- trampled on and, and
changed and -- go ahead.
BYRON SAGE: It's not -- that's not -- I'm
sure that's your perception from the --
STEVE
BYRON
yourself in now.
STEVESCHNEIDER: Oh, it, it has --
SAGE: -- position that you find
SCHNEIDER: No, no. But it's for
years. I've seen that for years.
BYRON
been, I've beenSAGE: I don't think so, because I've
with the FBI for 24 years. I'm telling
you that,
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
ensure that you've got the right to counsel.54
that we --
SCHNEIDER: The IRS, how it was --
SAGE: Let me, let me --
SCHNEIDER: -- created.
SAGE: -- finish. Okay?
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
SAGE: I'm telling you that we will
In fact,
we facilitated getting attorneys in there to, to talk
to you.
STEVE
BYRON
good, Steve.
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: All --
SAGE: I'm hoping that that's done some
SCHNEIDER: Oh, it has.
SAGE: Okay. Then we need to cap--
they, they themselves, theyre working for you, Steve.
They're not working for us. If they've --
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: I know they are.
SAGE: -- told you that it's in your
best interests to come --
STEVE
working --
BYRON
resolved --
STEVESCHNEIDER: Well, you guys are
SAGE: -- out and get this matter
SCHNEIDER: But, Byron, you know
they're working in their own interests --
BYRON55
SAGE: -- then let's get to the --
let's get it resolved.
STEVESCHNEIDER: Byron, you know they're
working in their own interests also. They're being
catapulted into the limelight. They're going to have
exposure you could never buy.
BYRON SAGE: We can't -- we're not
controlling that. Okay? And I --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVESCHNEIDER: The most, the most --
SAGE: -- I know exactly what you mean.
SCHNEIDER: -- that these guys want --
in fact, it came out in the press - how did they, how
did they -- the
something, what
BYRON
STEVE-- unless the lawyers themselves said
is this figure of 2,500,000?
SAGE: I --
SCHNEIDER: I'll come right out and
tell you what they want to charge me for getting --
BYRON
business. Okay?
STEVESAGE: Steve, that's none of my
SCHNEIDER: I, I want you to know, four
hundred and fif--
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVESAGE: Steve? Steve?
SCHNEIDER: Four hundred and --
SAGE: Steve?
SCHNEIDER: -- fifty thou-- where am I
going to get $450,000, Byron, to be represented? Where
56
am I getting that kind of money?
BYRON SAGE: I have absolutely no idea, and
it's really not any of my business. I, I -- let me,
let me mention --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, it is. What's
happened to --
BYRON SAGE: Hold on. Hold on --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the justice system?
BYRON SAGE: -- just a second. Let me
mention something to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
BYRON SAGE: Myself and anyone else that you
speak to on this phone is not in a position and we are
not asking for any particular insight or any
information regarding what you and your --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, no, no --
BYRON SAGE: Let me finish. What you and
your --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's not true.
BYRON SAGE: -- attorney has discussed.
Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Byron, that's not true.
I've had a number of the nego-- not yourself, but
there's a, a couple of the Johns have asked me specific
questions. They really have. Even though I told them
that the attorney said we're not to talk about these
~ 57
any more. In fact, in the first place, my rights are
violated because there was no ~- I mean, right from day
one information's been exchanged back and forth. And
the most pertinent --
BYRON
STEVE
asked of me.
BYRONSAGE: Well, what I --
SCHNEIDER: -- questions have been
SAGE: Steve, what I'm telling you and
what I'm telling you on behalf of myself, what I'm
telling you on behalf of the other negotiators, the
FBI, right on down the road, is that we don't have an
interest in nor do we have any reason -- in fact, we
don't want to know anything that has to do with your
defense plans.
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
about the ATP?SCHNEIDER: Can I ask you something?
SAGE: Do you understand that?
SCHNEIDER: Ca- yes.
SAGE: Okay.
SCHNEIDER: Can I ask you something
Are they allowed and privileged to also
hear the phone conversations we have? I know you tape
them all, but are they allowed to review and listen to
them also?
BYRON SAGE: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER; Oh, brother.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Now, I'm, I'm not -- now,
58
I've told you right --
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: I know you're honest.
SAGE: I'm -- I've told you right from
day one that I'm not going to lie to you.
STEVE
BYRONSCHNEIDER: Well, good.
SAGE: What we're conducting in here as
far as the negotiations are concerned is, is also
reviewed by the ATF. It's also reviewed by the Ranger
Service. The reason for that is that every agency has
a, has an aspect of involvement in the ongoing efforts
to get this resolved and to conduct the investigation
afterwards. Okay?
STEVESCHNEIDER: I mean, you know yourself
all the information that we've spoken about on the
phone they're going to use against us, they're going to
twist. That helps them prepare their case against us,
of course.
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVESAGE: Steve, let me --
SCHNEIDER: And, and --
SAGE: -- let me tell you this, okay?
SCHNEIDER: Listen. After, after Troy
has said all that he has, and, and if he's listened to
all this information, then he still has blatantly lied
like --
BYRON SAGE: I can't speak --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- he has.
I w
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
STEVESAGE: --
SCHNEIDER:
SAGE: --
SCHNEIDER59
for Troy. I can't --
I can.
speak for Troy. Okay?
I can. I was here when
that shootout took place. Troy, when it comes to, to
specific questions asked by the media, the guy always
go into a mode of ambiguity. He, he never answers
clearly and concisely, only when he has got some
statement to make, to slander us again.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Every --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Outright lies.
BYRON SAGE: Steve, everything that I've
heard him say, and I think I've been listening to the
same press
maybe it's
from, fromconferences, the indication to me -- and
just my standpoint, okay? My perspective
being involved from a law enforcement
standpoint. He's withholding several of the statements
that can't be brought forward until all the facts are
known. Now, whether you can understand this or not,
that's also --
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
wrong.
BYRON
STEVEscrmsxnsm Right.
SAGE: -- in your best interests.
SCHNEIDER: No, no. Byron, you're
SAGE: You, you've complained --
SCHNEIDER: Okay. No, Byron --
60
BYRON SAGE: -- right from day one that it's
only one side.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Byron, he's made statements
per-- that were -- that are totally, in relation to
the, the circumstances and events that have taken
place, he has given his opinion, because that's, that's
what it is, but he's acted like it was the facts, the
truth. There was no truth to it. No, he has taken
liberties he should not have taken. He'll do it
sometimes. And other times you would expect them to do
the same, then he'll clam up.
BYRON SAGE: How do you suggest to contradict
that?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How do I suggest? I don't
think I'll ever be able, to be honest with you. I,
I'll come out into the system, but I, I see myself --
like the scriptures show in the final days, judges do
all that they do for a reward, it says in the Bible.
If you read Micah, Chapter 7, read what it says about
the judges and the leaders of the earth in the final
days.
BYRON SAGE: Okay. Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Unless, unless you were
born like, like an ostrich with your head in the --
under the sand, you know, open your eyes. See what's
happening to this world indiscernible! --
61
BYRON SAGE: Steve, I don't, I don't think
that I'm walking around here with my eyes closed or my
head in the sand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know this is these
powerful merchants that are after a one-world
government. There's no question about it. The, the
United Nations and all of that. There's no --
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONSAGE: Okay.
SCHNEIDER: -- question.
SAGE: And I've heard you made ref--
make reference to --
STEVE
igmo not to, to
BYRON
don't think I'm
STEVE
no declared war
parallel.
heck out of me.
Democrat.
BYRON
STEVE
rhetic--
friend that hadSCHNEIDER: You'd have to be totally an
see what's happening in this world.
SAGE: Well, I'm many things, but I
anigm.
SCHNEIDER: Ten, ten years of Vietnam,
, you couldn't bomb north of the
I mean, for years that used to bother the
It didn't matter if Nixon got in or a
SAGE: Steve, were you there?
SCHNEIDER: No matter what their
rhetoric was. My many friends were. I had a
his whole pelvis blown out. He's still
living. You ought to see what he looks like. And I
was, by the way -- they, they were trying to draft me.
62
BYRON SAGE: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I wouldn't have minded
giving my life for my country if you were fighting for
your country, but to, to back some powerful merchants
that were making billions of dollars out of --
BYRON SAGE: Well, I don't know that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the war --
BYRON SAGE: -- that's exactly it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I do know that. I've
talked to an admiral of the United States Navy that is
now retired. He had documentation. And I heard about
the Rockefellers backing Hitler's war machine with
their oil back in the Second World War.
BYRON SAGE: Steve, I wasn't at the Second --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's mud on the road --
BYRON SAGE: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- here, by the way,
BYRON SAGE: Steve. I wasn't in World
War II, but I was in Vietnam twice. And I can't tell
you that, that I didn't come back a different guy than
when I went over.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Too many dimensions are
missing and, and --
[End of tape 201.]
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #202
4/9/93
12 oo - 3=31 p.m.
2
Tape #202
BYRON: -- receive are inaccurate and so
forth. You have the ability to do that, you yourself.
STEVE: I'm going, I'm going to come out but
you've got to remember, God comes first, always has.
BYRON: Okay.
STEVE: For the last 20 years of my life --
BYRON: But, but bear in mind, as --
STEVE: You said you found Christ over in
Viet Nam and I'm telling you that my whole progression
and day-by-day learning experiences has brought me to
where I'm at right now. And I can't move without -- I
really believe that David is divinely inspired, I do.
And they can make all the scoffing jokes they want
during the press and act like he's, like he's a cult
leader but try to controvert him. Grab a Bible, grab
your best scholars in the world and sit down with the
man.
BYRON: Do you understand that, that coming
out does not relegate God to second place? God will be
in control no matter what, what happens. You and I
both believe that.
STEVE: God guided 2 to 3 million Israelites
by one person, Moses, 70 rows up against him. God
opened up the earth and swallowed him whole. That's an
example to you and I that we should see how God's word
is Indiscernible!.
BYRON: Okay. And it's, it's time for you
and it's time for David to leave the Exodus out of Mt
Carmel.
STEVE: Not, not if God doesn't say it's
time. Time is an element. You see, right now there
issues being developed around the world in regards to
seven seals. David is more than willing to come out
and sit and rot in a jail cell, to be injected, to do
whatever you want to with his carcass, to do whatever
you want because he knows that God's in control. The
prophets speak about it.
BYRON: Steve, that, that all sounds
dramatic. It's, it's fine. I'm sure it'll play well
you know, to whatever audience. But you and I are
just, are just speaking man-to-man. We're speaking
honestly. When he comes out, when you come out, when
everybody in there comes out, you will be treated in
professional manner. I've, I've given you that, that
assurance before. I'm giving it, giving it to you
today.
STEVE: Well, --
BYRON: I'll personally be involved in, in
helping to oversee how it's done.
STEVE: How professional is it that some of
your agents here are flipping the finger at womenS
I
8
looking at the window and -- well, what's the need
we -- you know, there is a guy that looked out the
window yesterday or the day before and he waved to
them. And a couple of agents waved - now, that's
cool. I thought that's pretty neat.
BYRON: Okay. Now, the majority of --
STEVE: A couple of the agents
Indiscernible!
BYRON: Steve, the majority of the guys that
are out there, and I've worked with a lot of them, the
majority of the guys that are out there, the
overwhelming majority of guys that are out there are
extremely professional. If there's --
STEVE; Well, I'm glad to hear that. I
expect that.
BYRON: -- if there's some that are flipping
the bird or that are mooning you or something like
that, I'm not going to tell you for a moment that I
consider that professional behavior 'cause I don't.
STEVE
BYRON
they'd have som
STEVE
is?
BYRON
STEVE-
n
E
0
0
n0Tom, --
If they worked for me, they'd be --
some difficulty.
-- do you know -- do you know who To
Tom? Yes, I do know.
Yeah. Well, anyway, he was a guy4
F
5
that I talked to after I saw you that last day that you
and I had that --
BYRON: Right.
STEVE: -- when I was -- I want to say that I
appreciate a human being like himself. I mean the
courtesy, the decency, calling one by name and then --
BYRON: Steve, he's not the exception. He is
not the exception.
STEVE: Oh, I just want to - I'll tell you
one thing, no matter whatever happens to me, I want to
tell a guy like him, I won't forget someone like him.
BYRON; Okay.
STEVE: If the days comes where I am, I am
right and all that this what I've understood from the
Bible, I'll go out of my way a million times over to
stand up for a person like himself just because he had
a job to do but even during that job, he still tried to
be cool and decent to another human being.
BYRON: That's true. I agree with that. I
agree wholeheartedly with it. And I'm not trying to
defend any type of activity that's contrary to that. I
think we agree with that. But the same holds true for
you all. We've got a situation that needs to be
resolved. If we ~-
STEVE: We do.
BYRON: Let, let me finish. If we address
6
this as human beings with the same mutual respect for
one another that I think you and I have, then we can
get through this. You're not going to have to worry
about being mistreated or being, you know, thrown into
a situation and your, your rights not being provided to
you. Do you understand that?
STEVE: I do but I -- you know, it's also not
impossible that I'm going to end up in some federal
prison of which, you know, with some of the most hard
and terrible criminals around. In fact, that's more
than a possibility.
BYRON: Steve, do you realize that you're
putting yourself in that position right now, you,
yourself? You people are putting yourselves in that
position right now.
STEVE: I realize -- well, I don't realize
that but one thing I do realize is for sure, though, I
mean I'm already in a situation that I should have
never been in in the first place.
BYRON: Okay. But we're offering you --
STEVE: If the Constitution had been --
BYRON: Steve, we're offering you and I'm
offering you, personally, the opportunity to get
yourself out of that situation. And you've refused.
STEVE: It's not that. I, I refuse to go
against God who I fear more than --
BYRON :
STEVE
because, like I
BYRON :
STEVE
BYRON:
STEVE7
No, I'm not asking --
Byron, Byron, I refuse, I refuse
said, I fear God first and foremost.
So do I.
Read Matthew Chapter 10 Verse 28.
Steve, Steve, so do I and I --
Don't forget to read Matthew 10:28 if
you want to understand me at all.
BYRON: I, I think I understand you because
we believe a lot of the same things, okay. What I'm,
what I'm --
STEVE: Well, you know if you want - anytime
you want, I wouldn't mind you come right in here. I'll
sit down with you with the Bible and you can share with
me exactly what you see and understand. And if it
makes more sense than what I do -- if there's a weight
of evidence, I'll come walking out with you right now
today.
BYRON: And I appreciate that offer and I'll
tell you that I have no problem in sitting down with
you but I can tell you it's not going to be in there.
And that's not necessarily a decision that I make but
you know as well as I do --
STEVE: Oh, you -- I believe you know --
BYRON: -- that the commanders --
STEVE: -- I believe you really --
8
BYRON: Let me, let me --
STEVE: -- know that you would be okay,
Byron. I think you really -- I believe you would know
that.
BYRON: Okay. I accept your word for that
and if -- but that's not -- and what I'm saying is
that's not my reservation in coming in there. It's not
my option. There's certain options that reality
dictates you have and that I have. I don't have one of
walking in the front door, whether I'm willing to do
that or not. And I'm telling you that from an old --
my personal belief as to whether or not I would be
harmed or injured or whatever, I'd be there in a
heartbeat.
STEVE: Yeah, I know.
BYRON: But what I'm telling you is that
that's not an option I have so there's no reason to
even explore it.
STEVE: I know.
BYRON: The option that you have -- if you
want to sit down and discuss this matter with me, I'm
ready anytime but you know -- you and I both know that
we're going to have to do that out here.
STEVE: How much weight do you have in -- do
you have any weight at all in the decision making
process, at least some influence because you are, you
9
know, this is your district, isn't it?
BYRON: Yes, it is.
STEVE: So, I would think that - I mean I'm
sure Jamar, especially when you're talking with us and
so forth -- you're definitely intelligent, yourself.
You're articulate. Jamar must take a lot of what
you're saying in, in hearing the conversations.
BYRON: I think he -- I'll tell you, you want
to know what he really responds to?
STEVE: what's that?
BYRON: Is common sense in a --
STEVE: Well, that sounds good.
BYRON: - in a position that, that can be
worked out, something that's realistic. This -- the --
early on when, when David was bringing up this, you
just show me the seven seals and we'll come out like a
herd of cattle, you and I both know that's not
accurate. There's no way that that's going to happen.
So, that type of thing doesn't even register with him.
What does register with him is when we have
meaningful discussions, when we can come to an
understanding, when we can -- when you make a request
to have legal counsel or you make a request about how
the crime scene's going to be handled or you make a
request regarding sealed documents and on and on and on
and we can address those issues, which we've done with
10
you, from property to legal counsel to sealed documents
to media access right on down the road. You and I
have been able to work through that, you and the other
negotiators. Isn't that a -- that's a fair statement,
I think.
That he responds to and that's why he's
facilitated us being able to get back to you and
provide you with assurances that, that the Rangers are
going to be in charge of the crime scene and that we
got you the statement from the U.S. Attorney's Office
regarding property. We've gotten --
STEVE: Yeah, I know. I'm not --
BYRON: - not only representation that you
have legal counsel. We've actually gotten them to talk
to you.
STEVE: But you know -- you and I both -- you
know, that's only one statement out of 1000. They're
in law books of man and what they - they can have a
couple of hundred other reasons to come in here and
take the property but that's neither here nor there. I
don't care -- should I tell you the truth? Personally,
I don't care if they ever did take this property. I
never wanted it -- you know, this is not my idea of a
good time.
BYRON: Well, okay. Then you and I can have
our lengthy discussion after you all come out in
ll
Honolulu. That's not going to bother me either. Okay.
I agree with you. I mean if I've got a choice between
talking to you in Hawaii or talking to you in Waco, I
think you and I have already made that choice. But
what I'm looking forward to is how can we realistically
-- now that we've come to that understanding, how do we
realistically get you out of that particular situation
into a position --
STEVE: Well, let's --
BYRON: -- where we can discuss this.
STEVE: Well, I'm going to have to try to get
down on a piece of paper here, if I can find the time
around here -- believe it or not, it's -- it would seem
like I would have more time in the world than I've ever
- you know, one thing I have liked about this and I --
I've actually had some time to sit down and read the
Bible which I haven't been able to do for a long, long
time because I was so busy with music, so busy with
people. So, I've had an opportunity to look at things
that I haven't been able to look at in quite a while.
So, I mean that's given me an opportunity. But I would
like to give you a real good answer for all the things
you're asking, especially -- we want to come out. Not
maybe. No, we do. And it still has to do with fearing
God and this program. But I want to make it as, as
clear to you as I possibly can so maybe when I talk to
12
you the next time, hopefully, I'll give you a couple of
real clear concise statements.
BYRON: Okay. Let me, let me make a clear
and concise statement to you, Steve, okay?
STEVE: All right.
BYRON: You had a great deal of time, that's
a true statement. You've had 41 days. You are not
going to continue to have time ad infinitum. This has
got to be resolved, Steve, and I want you and I to do
it without injury or placing anyone else in harm's way.
I can't - that's at the top of my list. That's what I
genuinely --
STEVE: I believe that.
BYRON: -- want to be able to accomplish.
STEVE: I believe that.
BYRON: And I think you want it, too. But
you've got to come to an understanding, a realistic
understanding that, that this isn't going to go on and
on and on and on.
STEVE: No, it isn't. No, it isn't. God's
got himself a time table of which this is not going to
go on. l
BYRON: What, what do you think, Steve,
realistically, what do you think is going to happen to
you and the others in there?
STEVE: I have no idea, honestly.
BYRON:
I mean --
STEVE:
of coming out and
happens to us?
BYRON:
STEVE:
BYRON:13
Well, you've got to have some idea.
Are you talking about in the process
going through the system, then what
Yes. And what --
I think, I think --
-- what kind of time frame are we
talking about on that?
STEVE:
BYRON:
STEVE:
me.
BYRON:
The moment you'reYou know better than I do.
Okay. Then what - let me --
I mean you actually know better than
Let me give you the answer to it.
ready to come out, I'm ready to have
buses waiting to move you from, from the vicinity of
the compound down to the process -- did, did you listen
to the - you listened to the press conference today,
right?
STEVE:
BYRON:
mentioned - whenYes, I did.
Okay. One of the things that was
there was a very specific question
asked about the processing, did you hear that one?
STEVE:
BYRON:I don't -- refresh my memory.
Okay. He was talking about what role
the ATF - I was hoping that you were listening to
this.
STEVE
BYRON:
STEVE
BYRONl4
Oh, yes.
Do you remember that?
Yes, yes, yes, I do.
Okay. He specifically told you, told
everybody, but he specifically told you because you've
got an access to that -- to the press conference, that
ATF's involvement consists of assisting in, in stamping
part of the outer perimeter, check points along with
DPS, and, and working with the Rangers who are in
charge of the homicide investigation. And, again, I
stress with you that they're in charge of the homicide
investigation wherever that homicide took place. And
that includes deaths outside, deaths inside. You
understand that?
STEVE: I do understand that.
BYRON: That's a concern that you've
expressed several times.
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRONI, I don't like them involved period.
You don't like who involved?
I, I did ~- the ATF.
Okay. But what I'm trying to point
out to you is that it's not unfettered access to any of
this, it's with the Rangers. And with the check
points, it's with DPS troopers and -
STEVE: Oh, I think it's great that the
15
Rangers are themselves the ones that are spearheading
this.
BYRON: Oh, I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean I'm telling you honestly.
STEVE: But I heard him also say that the ATP
was in charge of processing those that come out here.
BYRON; No, no, no.
STEVE: He made that statement.
BYRON: He said that they are working with
the Rangers at the processing center.
STEVE: I heard him say that the ATP is in
charge of processing those that come out of the - this
premises, this building.
BYRON; No, I, I took notes at the same time
he was, he was making those comments and I've got
written down here, processing center with Rangers.
Okay. And that's -- I'm guaranteeing you that that's
the situation because we've looked into it. I know, I
know your concerns, okay.
STEVE: Well, I know, you know, --
BYRON: Whether or not they're well founded,
Steve -- I need to mention this to you as well -
whether or not they're well founded, I know your
concerns. And I'm telling you that ATF - that the
processing center is located within, within the, the
physical facilities that have been occupied by ATP from
16
the beginning of this thing but they will be handled --
the processing will be handled with the Rangers, with
the Rangers. Do you understand that?
STEVE: Yeah.
BYRON: Okay. So, that should give you some
assurance.
BYRON: There was an ATP agent that in the
process of taking Kevin Whitecliff out of here told him
he didn't ~- he said -- talked to him about his looks.
Then he said to him, I hope you fry. I mean, you know,
that's why -- I mean, number one, I can understand why
the man would say that and I can't even blame him if it
was his buddies that, that went down under.
BYRON: Sure.
STEVE: And what about the six people here
that died?
BYRON: That's -- you've, you've got a valid
point, okay.
STEVE: We never knew --
BYRON: And I'm, and I'm not --
STEVE= But the whole thing is this, I
wouldn't want to say that to that gentleman or that man
in the first place.
BYRON: Well, you're .Steve, --
STEVE: I, I - that's why -- wait, wait.
That's why I don't believe the ATF should be involved
l7
in this because they've got too -- they're too
emotionally involved. There's a biasness there.
BYRON: You're right. That's why there is
not a singular involvement of the ATF.
STEVE: Well, why are they at all? You
wouldn't want me to be in control over the ATP, would
you, Byron? Of course, you wouldn't from my
perspective and advantage point here.
BYRON: Okay. But what I'm telling you is
that the investigation that, that's going into the
activities on the 28th is not purely by the ATP.
STEVE: I - it shouldn't be at all, though.
That's the whole -- they shouldn't be involved in that
they perpetrated this thing and from the very words and
statements of David Troy. Man, that guy's got a
biasness even though he wasn't even involved here but
yet he acts like he's God and has all the facts and
what he says is the truth.
BYRON: Did you listen to his response with
relation to whether or not there was an ongoing
investigation as to ATF's activity on that day?
STEVE: Yeah, and that bothered me. I
expected it to be more hardcore ongoing right now and
some names. I want to know something that's really --I
don't really believe anything's happening, personally,
from what he has said.
18
BYRON: well, I can tell you from my
standpoint that it is ongoing. Every single one of the
agents on the ground that I'm aware of that were, that
were involved, okay, let's say involved --
STEVE= I think Higgins, himself, ought to be
checked out all the way on down what the motives of
these men were right from the top on down. I do like
what I heard Clinton say. I'm hoping that the man
comes through.
BYRON: Okay. What I, what I wanted to tell
you, though, is that it is, it is ongoing, okay, that
the Rangers have interviewed everybody that's -- that
was involved in that matter. The other thing that we
need to do is just -- I guess what I'm trying to tell
you is, is just give you a little bit of a reality
check, give you the assurance that we are looking --
that, that the matter is being looked into with
relation to February 28th. But we're now looking at,
at April 9th. We need to look from now forward. We
need to look at, at what's going on now and what we can
do to protect the future as far as you and every
individual in that -- in the Mt. Carmel center is
concerned so that we can insure what's going to happen
in the future. What's already happened is history.
And the truth, Steve, --
STEVE: Uhhuh.
19
BYRON: -- which I think is what you want to
come out, the truth will speak for itself. But you
have the control over what's happening in the future.
You have the control, David has the control,
apparently. But I'm thinking that you've got direct
input into what's going to happen in the future. And,
and we need to be working together to try to get that
resolved in the best interests for everybody. And the
best interests for everybody is to seize on the
opportunity that you all have right now. This is Good
Friday, okay?
STEVE : Uh-huh.
BYRON: It's Good Friday. Now, if you all
believe in, in Christ, as I, I would assume you do, --
STEVE: Of course.
BYRON: Okay. Then you need to realize that
this is probably the most significant holy season for
any of us that believe in Christ. It is -- in my
estimation, it's more important than any other, any
other religious holiday going is Easter. That's what
gives us all the, the strength.
STEVE: Well, see, I'm not - you know, I,
I'm not into -- I never -- even as a Protestant, as
I've been all these years, I've never been into Easter
because, of course, it's from paganism. Easter doesn't
have a place in the Bible whatsoever, not at all.
20
Christ, of course, kept the Passover. He changed the
sacrifice from animals to, of course, taking communion,
the bread and the wine. But, basically, when -- this
was what David was trying to explain the other night to
John-4. I think it was John O'Neil. He was actually
opening up a few things to him until Dwayne got on the
phone and slammed the phone down on him. But I was
hoping that he would have listened a little further
more so he could have explained clearly the connection
between Christ, the Passover, Lamb, and how this all
was instigated and started, initiated by God himself
with the Israelites.
BYRON: Okay. I understand that but let's
bring that a little bit further forward, okay? Let's
bring it forward from, from the Exodus, which I'm
hoping we will also see during this holy season, of you
all exiting.
STEVE: You know, Byron, it's possible. It's
possible today.
BYRON: Good. God, I hope it's possible.
That's why I've been here for 41 days. If this was an
impossibility, you know, we could have just gone, gone
to other avenues of resolving this matter which nobody
wants short of trying to, to sit down and reasonably
working this thing out.
STEVE: And I think you guys -- I know you
21
know that these people because they fear God first,
nothing -- you know, that's why when like the other day
when whoever the agent was inside the Bradley, I was
the one -- I was looking at the window. He brought the
Bradley -- it was
the Bradley right
he wanted to come
it and popping it
myself, you know,two days ago, I believe -- he brought
up to the fence here and acted like
running through. He kept on revving
and turning it and I thought to
go -- you know, it doesn't - that
part doesn't -- you know, when you fear God first,
Byron, when you really do, those kind of things don't
bother a person. They really don't. People in here --
I don't care if it's a frail little woman in this
building or whatever, nobody's bothered by that kind of
thing. You can play -- you can turn the volume up of
the noises you people play here ten times the decibels
and it wouldn't affect these people. I'm telling you
the truth. Whatever you need to do, you go ahead and
do it but I mean what it comes down to, they fear God
first.
BYRON:
STEVE:
BYRON:
you --
STEVE:Steve?
Yeah.
So, do I. So, do I. And I'm telling
You see, that's why we haven't not --
convenience would tell me -- convenience sake would be
22
to come out, do this, be done with it and you, you
should know that. That's sensible.
BYRON: But that's beyond convenience sake.
You know, you, you sense that there's a lot of negative
perceptions. You can turn that around. You and David
are in the position to turn that around. As soon as
you want to do something positive and give your side of
the story, project the side of the story that you all
wanted project, the world's waiting to hear it. I'm
the one -- Steve, remember
morning, I'm still talking
Broadcasting Network. But
these options are going to
STEVE: I really
Byron, you don't understand that
wanted -- God's got a way to get
message is of God, like it shows
will stand. If it's not of God,Iand as recently as this
to the Christian
I don't know how long all
last.
don't care. See, God --
we've never really
-- Dave -- if David's
in Acts 5 and 6, it
it's foolishness, it's
vanity, it's a waste of time.
BYRON: Couldn't agree more.
STEVE: So, in the Bible, in the Old
Testament, in the writings of the prophets it shows how
God's going to work in the final days to get a message
to the entire world.
BYRON: Okay.
STEVE: So, I could show you that but, of
23
course, this is no time and place. I would love to but
at the same time, we don't really have a strong desire
to use like CB -- in the first place, I really don't
have any respect for CBN, this guy by the name of Craig
Smith. The guy, to me, -- I'll tell you the truth, I'm
not -- I don't really -- I don't like him. I'd like to
see him live forever. I'd love his soul. He might be
a nice person. He may make it and I may not. But one
thing is for sure, the guy judged without ever talking
to me. He's never heard me. He doesn't know my
experience. And to think he spoke in the manner he did
as a representative of such a nationwide -- I mean I
was appalled at what came out of the man's mouth.
BYRON: Steve, -
STEVE: He knows not -- wait -- he knows not
the first principles of Christ whatsoever, the very one
he says he knows and believes in. So, anything to do
with his network, I mean I don't -- I'm not interested.
I could care less. If you talking ABC, CBS, NBC, I'm
interested in.
BYRON: Let's step back for just a moment,
okay. Let's just step back for just a moment. We're -
- you and I are talking on, on April 9th, okay. March
2nd, you, myself and David, in particular, were
extremely interested in what Christian Broadcasting
Network could do for him.
24
STEVE: Should I tell you the truth?
anon; Yeah. '
STEVE: Let me tell you something about
myself. When David did what he did and said what he
did, that was David. Myself, I listened and because he
has shown me the Bible as he has and the truth he has,
I go along with what he does because I've told you I
believe he's inspired. So, for that reason he said
what he did and that was -- I'm, I'm -- I looked at all
the issues. He's not disappointed me up until this
day. So, that was fine.
BYRON: He did not disappoint you on March
2nd?
STEVE: No, he did not.
BYRON: David, -- I mean, Steve, do you
understand what he did for you on March 2nd? He lied
to the world --
STEVE: No, he did not lie.
BYRON: -- on your behalf, March 2nd.
STEVE: He -- remember now, this --
BYRON: Stop and think about it. In his own
words, in his own words he said that as soon as his
message was put out, you all would come out
immediately.
STEVE: From God's word I can explain and
show it to you so plainly and clearly and you --
25
BYRON: The perception of everyone out here?
STEVE: Oh, yeah, to your satisfaction. You
would not even -- I really don't believe you'd disagree
with me. If I -- why do you think Christ and John-3,
John-8 is talked -- he's telling Nickademias ph! that
he must be lifted up? The only thing that was ever
lifted up and he's responding to, of course, in numbers
were a brazen serpent was put up on a pole by Moses.
Those that were bit by poisonous serpents, those that
looked upon that brazen serpent, that braze serpent,
lived. And Christ says, this is -- now, why is Christ
likened unto his serpent for? Satan deceived mankind
into death by lies, by deceptions. So, Christ comes
along and says, be wise as serpents and harmless as
doves. Now, why, why a serpent? A serpent was the
first symbol of Satan. But now how is Christ to use
that serpent in the final days? People who are so
selfdeceived thinking they know God, thinking they're
on their way to heaven but don't know the first
principles of God's will as it's laid out by all the
writers of the book.
So, we come along now and, yes, certain
things appear to you to be so but be careful, be
careful because give us the time, we will show you
exactly the place for all these things. You've got to
remember that Jim Kavanaugh, the statements he made --
26
and I don't remember yourself but Kavanaugh made some
pretty straight plain statements to me on the telephone
in regards to the perimeter of the property. Not
coming onto the property, don't worry. We're just
going to bring Bradleys, ACPs, right up to the very
edge, the very edge of the property. Don't worry,
don't be con - we said -- and we agreed with him on
that.
BYRON: Okay.
STEVE: But immediately they were in that
garage right from the first night on and, and they
encroached every day and night. And, you know, we're
not going to go down through the whole list. But lies
began and dishonor and distrust from day one from
statements made. And you don't think we had a list of
things already up until that Tuesday which was March
2nd? Of course, we did. I was wondering -- I'll be
honest --
BYRON: Steve, I can, I can tell you this.
Everything that, that I've tried to enter into on your
behalf during the course of the last 41, 42 days has
been based upon my word. That's all I have to give
you.
STEVE: I believe you.
BYRON: And I stand behind it.
STEVE: I believe you.1
92
J
27
BYRON: Okay. I also believe David's word on
March 2nd. I was the one that -- you asked whether or
not the commanders listen to me when I go in to try to
give them some input on your behalf. Yes, they do.
But how many times can I go in and give them the
assurance such as the assurance that I had from David's
own lips that he was coming out immediately upon that
broadcast being made? We put people's jobs on the
line.
STEVE: He was. I saw him. I saw -- I was
right there the entire time. I was communicating with
- who was I communicating with that day? I can't even
remember now.
BYRON: Me.
STEVE: Was it you on --
BYRON: Yes.
STEVE: -- the 2nd?
BYRON: Yes.
STEVE: Okay. So, I remember all of going
back and forth to him. I remember the stretcher laying
right there. It was all laid out. The guys were
already over by him. And he was praying. They all
said, you know, their last few words to him and so
forth cause who knows who was going to go where and
what was going to happen. I'm telling you he meant
what he said. He was sincere. I went back, I waited.
28
He started praying. I heard him say a few things and
he -- what he went through, the anguish and so forth,
I've never seen anything like it in my life. I'm not
going to start telling you about it and explaining --
whether you'd buy it or not. But I was there. I saw.
In the process when he -- time was going by and it was
making me nervous, I'll tell you the truth, because we
had said what we said.
BYRON: Yes, you did.
STEVE: And for every minute that went by,
unsettled me and, and unsettled everybody. And it
bothered him. His God told him to wait. And he's --
and we're going, we'll wait. So, from that time on,
he's opened up some pretty deep things to us in showing
us what --
BYRON: But you know, Steve, the only thing
that you've told me about what his God --
STEVE: There's something that I have not
revealed to you, yet, though. That --
BYRON: Hold on. Okay, what is that?
STEVE: That what which he's actually -- he
got into something about the very attitude, the spirit
of the people. Certain things had taken place in those
first two, three days which he was totally unaware
about, totally unaware about. So, partially, it had to
do with us being ready, with God, having an experience
29
with God, something you wouldn't understand right now.
You would if you gave me the time and I'd open up the
Bible to you but I don't see that happening.
BYRON: But, Steve, see those things are not
going to dry up. You're not going - the Sheriff,
himself, had given you assurances that you would
continue to have access to David and to his teachings.
STEVE: We don't -- I don't know -- we don't
really --
BYRON: And to the, to the following of the
word.
STEVE: It's a pretty big promise for you. I
don't ~- I really -- David and I, neither one of us
believe that you could bring that about nor once the
time we had come out, that that would happen.
BYRON: Steve, I have not one time told you
anything would be done unless I was absolutely
convinced that it could be.
STEVE; And so all of a sudden what would you
say, well, I, I was convinced and I thought it would
happen. Or you could say, well, you people lied. And
I mean how do we -- I mean what -- if you -- I tell you
what --
BYRON: There comes a time, David, --
STEVE: Put the seal of the President of the
United States on it.
BYRON:
are going to have
STEVE: Well, no, no,
BYRON:
I'm going to have
STEVE:
BYRON:
up to.30
Steve, there comes a time when you
to believe what I'm telling you.
but that --
And -- wait -- and more importantly,
to believe what you're telling me.
Byron, but that's okay. I'll --
Everything I've told you I've lived
STEVE: That's not keeping me from coming
out, though, understand that. That's not the reason.
I'd come out right today. It's -- number one, I came
here and I got involved with this man six and a half
years ago because of the Bible and I believe the man's
inspired some -- I'm waiting on
it's not like -- I mean, number
opened up and revealed to me so
something is taking place. And
impossible or it's not unlikelywhat he has there. And
one, things have been
I can see, you know,
it's not, it's not
that it could even
happen today or tomorrow even though this is the
Passover season. It's a holy time to us. There are
certain things that we're experiencing and so forth but
that does not negate the possibilities of us even
coming out today. If God says come out today or during
the Sabbath hours or whatever, we will do that.
BYRON: Steve, it's a
of us, okay.critical time for all
31
STEVE: I, I believe -- I know.
BYRON: It's, it's a very special time. It's
a holy time. The Passover, you and I all -- we both
know what it's about. It's -- it also is a time when
God embraced his own and brought them out of a, of a
position of potential hazard and oppression and so --
STEVE: I don't know about you but I'm
hungry. I haven't eaten yet today.
BYRON: Come on out. That pizza offer from
yesterday still stands. I was here when it was made
and I heard your action to it.
STEVE: Is it going to be delivered to me in
jail or where?
BYRON: Maybe at the processing center.
STEVE: Okay.
BYRON: I'll bring it --
STEVE: I don't think I -- I probably
couldn't eat it all Indiscernible!.
BYRON: I'll bring it in myself. I'll bring
it in myself.
STEVE: Indiscernible! butterflies to be
able to eat.
BYRON: Let me mention to you, okay, and
then, and then I need to, to go check with the, --
STEVE: Okay.
BYRON: - commanders on a couple of things.
32
Every promise that's been made to you I'm privy to or
I've made them myself.
STEVE: Okay.
BYRON: I still stand ready to deliver on
every --
STEVE: Well, that sounds good, appreciate
it.
BYRON: -- single one of them. But you've
got to understand, Steve, I'm asking you, please, to
understand that this is not a limitless situation --
STEVE: No, I - really, I under --
BYRON: - as far as time.
STEVE: You know, even these attorneys that
came through to me loud and clear, I think it was
yesterday, that if we didn't come out by the 14th,
15th, whatever, that they were going to drop us. Well,
you know, I mean that, that would be a shame. Thatd
be too bad. But if they would have to do that, I -- we
told them clearly from day one that we're going to put
God first under all circumstances no matter if it's to
our detriment even when it comes to this life and this
world. I can't -- I can do no other no more than --
BYRON= Steve, remember something, God is not
going to punish you for simply walking out of there.
You know that as well as I do.
STEVE: You don't know that. You don't --
33
Byron, I can show you contrary to what you're telling
me right now. That shows you that you don't know the
same God of the Bible that I know.
BYRON: Well, it's, it's a matter of, of how
you want to read and interpret --
STEVE: No, no, no. I'll give you actual
chapters you can read aside from me, not having me
around.
BYRON: It says, thou shalt not leave Mt.
Carmel compound, Waco, Texas?
STEVE: No. I'll show you Nahum, Zephaniah.
They were shown to me and I'll put -- we'll give you
the chapters. You can reference each verse. You can
look it up, look at it together Indiscernible!.
BYRON: I want you to do me a favor, Steve.
STEVE: What's that?
BYRON: Do me a favor. Make sure that you
are looking at the, at the word of God and not the word
of David.
STEVE
BYRON:
STEVE
BYRON-That's exactly -- any --
Do you understand what I'm saying?
Oh, yes, I do. When --
Think about that.
STEVEN: When a statement's made, we have a -
- we take him right back to the Bible. If it's not
there, we're out of here.
34
BYRON: Well, just make sure that the
interpretation is biblical and not Davidian.
STEVE: Well, the whole thing is --
BYRON: Do you understand what I'm saying?
STEVE: Yes, I do understand. I most
certainly do because you've got to remember I've dealt
with theologians, ministers, lay people, for 20 years.
BYRON: Okay. And I'm not claiming to be a
theologian or anything like that but I think you and I
are on a very close parallel as far as our personal
beliefs and our personal commitments. But make sure
that you're not hitching your wagon to the wrong horse.
STEVE: I'm glad you say that because I, I
really do like -- I, I actually like a good honest
statement like that because I'm not offended. If
anything, it's healthy. It's healthy for the mind.
It's good to relook at the issues, who's involved, how,
why and what the outcome could
BYRON: Steve, that,
can put it. It's as honest as
STEVE: Okay.
BYRON: And, and the
is the --
STEVE: Well, --
BYRON: -- fact that
to do is --be or the reactions.
that is as honest as I
the day is long.
- what follows up on it
I'm here. All you need
STEVE:
BYRON:
STEVE:
BYRON:All right.
-- is give
Thank you.
You let me
move heaven and earth to try
92
92
just as we promised you from
out of there.
STEVE: Okay.35
us a call.
know and I will, I will
to, to get things arranged
day one. We can get you
BYRON: We can get you out of there safely.
We can provide you with the --
STEVE: Byron, aren't you hungry?
BYRON:
STEVE: Aren't you ~ I'm starved. IPardon me?
eat yet since yesterday.
BYRON: Okay. Why don't you go ahead
a nourishing meal
STEVE: I'll be in communication with
BYRON:
give me a call.
STEVE;
BYRON:
STEVE:
BYRON:
STEVE:And anytime
Okay, I'll
All right.haven't
and get
you.
you want a pizza, you
do that.
Talk to you later.
Take care.
Bye.
§i'l' 'l'
Phone continuously ringing!
STEVE
BYRON :
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
emphasizes what I
STEVE
BYRON
you hear it?
STEVE
BYRON
that we're going
and some instruct
STEVE:
BYRON;
between now and 2
STEVE:
BYRON:
we've got a clear
STEVE:
>
- BYRON
STEVE
BYRON:
-
0 STEVE
BYRON:36
Hello.
Hi, Steve?
Yeah.
This, this is Byron again.
Yes.
The noise on the line kind of
wanted to tell you.
Pardon?
I said the noise on the line, again,
Oh, it's bad again, isn't it?
Right. What I wanted to tell you is
to be bringing some, some wire forward
ions for Graham.
Okay.
They'll probably do that sometime
00.
All right. We'll look for you.
Okay. So, we'll just make sure that
line.
Okay.
All right, buddy.
Okay, thanks.
Have a good lunch.
Bye.
Okay. Be on the lookout, okay,
that's what --37
STEVE: Pardon?
BYRON: -- that's what they'll be bringing,
though. if you see another --
STEVE
BYRON:
STEVE
BYRON
STEVE
BYRON
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVEAll right.
-- one coming up.
Okay. Thanks.
Take care.
Bye.
Bye.
* ¢ ¢ *
Hello?
Hello. This is Steve. Who's this?
Steve, this is Henry.
Henry?
Yes.
I can hardly hear you.
I know, it's really bad.
Well, what's that -- they told me
that before 2:00 they were going to try to get a line
to me but I -- what's happened to them?
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVEI went and checked --
Hello?
Hello. Can you hear me now?
Well, I can hardly. You're going to
-- it's going to really -- Byron, is he around still or
38
is he in this area?
HENRY:
STEVE:I can't hear you. What?
Byron, he wanted me to get back to
him but I don't know -- is he around or --
HENRY:
STEVE:
HENRY:He's not around right now.
Okay.
I'm -- I went downstairs to, to talk
to our telephone guys that --
STEVE: You know, I can hardly hear you
because you got that noise playing on the outside.
It's crackly on the phone. Between the two, it's, it's
near impossible.
HENRY:
STEVE:
HENRY:
shortly. They're
use, okay?
STEVE:
HENRY:
STEVE:
HENRY:
STEVE:
HENRY:
shortly.
STEVE:
HENRY:I talked to our telephone guys.
Okay.
They should be coming out, you know.
going to give you a bunch of line to
A bunch of what?
The line, telephone line.
Okay.
Okay?
Yeah.
So, they should be coming out to you
All right.
Okay. Whenever, you know -- when --
39
and they're going to have instructions so that you can
hook the thing up.
STEVE: Okay. Henry, I need to make a
request there, too, because it's -- like -- for the
Christian world, it's also a very high day for us.
This is --
HENRY: Today?
STEVE: Yes, it is. You know, Friday is when
Christ was crucified. In fact, --
HENRY: Yes.
STEVE: -- it was within this hour. So,
before the hour's up, from 3:00 to 4:00, is the time we
normally -- in fact, this time burn like seven incense,
cans of incense.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE: And we've always done that outside.
So, if I could, I'd like to, myself, walk out, put the
seven cans right on the road in front of the building.
' HENRY: Put what?
STEVE: Well, they're, they're cans, you
know, of incense.
HENRY: Cans?
STEVE: And there's seven of them as is
biblical. So, we - normally, I put them just right
outside the building.
HENRY: Okay. Let me check on that, okay?
40
STEVE: Okay. Let me hang on the phone
because I might not otherwise -- this has been a very
bad I can't even get back to you.
HENRY: Okay. Okay. Hold on, hold on a
second.
STEVE: All right.
Pause!
HENRY: Steve?
STEVE: Yeah.
HENRY: I'm going to have to get back to you
because the commanders and Byron are out, okay. So,
I'm having somebody locate them so that we can get a
position on this.
STEVE: Okay. Keep trying because I've --
HENRY: I sure will.
STEVE: I've tried to call out for about the
last two hours and it's -- nothing's worked. This is
the first time I was able to get through.
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY:
4:00?
STEVE
HENRYOh, really?
Yes.
Okay. Let me ask you something.
Yeah.
You have to do this between 3:00 and
Pardon?
You say that you need to do this
41
between 3:00 and 4:00?
STEVE: Yes. In fact, before the hour is up.
We've always -- in fact, about 10 minutes usually, at
least, before the hour we always set them out front and
-- it doesn't even burn that long but it's something
we've done for the last years.
HENRY: Okay. And you're going to get -- go
like out right on the porch?
STEVE: Yeah, it would be just right on the
road. You know, just when - you know where the fence
is in the front there?
HENRY: Yeah.
STEVE: Where the cars are, I was going to
set them in the road this time because of all --
everything's dug and messed up right now so that way,
you know, one can see and it's not a problem.
HENRY: And tell me, what is it contained
within?
STEVE: All it is is smoke. It should --
it's going to be orange smoke, is all that is.
HENRY: But it -- what is it in?
STEVE: It's in a little yellow canister.
HENRY: Oh, okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
HENRY: Okay. Is it metal or plastic?
STEVE: The canister, it's, it's metal. It's
42
about one, two, three -- about six inches tall.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE: About maybe three inches wide.
HENRY: Okay. If for some reason I call you
back and I can't get to you --
STEVE: I'll try to -- if I -- if not, I'll
try to get you then.
HENRY: Okay. Call me no later than a
quarter of.
STEVE: Right, guaranteed. If you can,
though, try to get to me before.
HENRY: Oh, I will. Absolutely, I will.
STEVE: Okay.
HENRY: As soon as -- as soon as I get a --
somebody calling in here, --
STEVE: Okay.
HENRY: -- I'll get -- I'll try to get you an
answer. For some reason, we're not able to communicate
with one another, I'll have one of the Bradleys come up
to you.
STEVE: Okay.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE: Now, how do -- I couldn't hear the
last part about a Bradley.
HENRY: I'm saying if we're unable to talk to
one another, --
STEVE
HENRY:
can't reach you
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE43
Okay.
-- okay. You can't hear me or I
and you can't reach me.
Right, right.
I'll send a Bradley to you.
All right.
Okay.
Okay. Talk to you later.
Okay, bye.
Okay, bye.
iitt
Hello?
Steve?
Yes. Is this Henry?
Yes.
Henry, I've got a message from David.
It's very important. I've got two items here. Number
one, directly from him, he wrote it down and passed it
to me, it says, "Please respect the evening hour of our
worship which is right now, from 3:00 to 4:00, meaning
they're playing
which Christ died. We offer the seven incense at
very hour to Indiscernible! the spirit of Christ
the hand of thethese sounds. This is the hour in
this
into
Father which is Psalm 31 and Luke
Chapter 23, Verse 46. Signed David Koresh".
And then he has a -- the second item is he
44
has a letter that he wants given to the commanders or
yourselves, yourselves and the commanders.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE: It's actually -- it's for everybody
but I doubt that it will get past you people but if you
feel -- if you want, you can give it to the press or
whoever else.
HENRY: Okay. Steve, I just talked to, to
one of the commanders.
STEVE: All right.
HENRY: Okay. And this is what he would
like. He would like for you, as you said, to be the
person that's going to come out with the, with the
incense?
STEVE
HENRY
comes, comes up
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY
position,
that you not do
just off of theRight.
Okay. But wait until a Bradley
there.
All right.
It should be coming up there shortly.
Okay.
So, when it, when it moves into
you go ahead out by yourself and he asked
it on the road but rather, you know,
road.
STEVE: Okay, just off the road?
HENRY: Huh?
STEVE:45
I, I couldn't hear it. Say it again,
the last part, Henry, I couldn't hear it.
HENRY:
0
I STEVE
HENRY:
grass is?
STEVE 0
0
HENRY:
STEVE
¢
- HENRY
you please not pic
anything --
STEVE;
HENRY:
STEVE:
and we agree, that
HENRY:
takes place. Now,
STEVE:
one, one more time
HENRY:
up and is in posit
STEVE:
HENRY:Not on the actual road --
Okay.
- but just beyond the road where the
All right.
Okay. And --
That's fine.
But, but, you know, and he asks that
k up anything, you know, or move
Agreed.
Okay?
If you, if you ask me ahead of time
's my word.
Okay. Now, please wait until this
I, I can't, I can't hear you, Henry,
Please wait until the Bradley comes
ion.
Okay.
Additionally, -- okay, I will make
your request known.
STEVE: Okay, good.
moves into
to dial you again46
HENRY: Now, the letter --
STEVE: What should I do with that?
HENRY: What I'll do is -- when the Bradley
position, give me a call back.
STEVE
HENRY:
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRYAll right.
Okay?
Yeah.
And, and let me --
It's going to be hard because I had
about three times minimum.
Okay. Let me see if I can work out,
you know, how we're going to get the, the letter from
you or wha
hear you.CEVEI
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
STEVE
HENRY
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:All right.
Okay?
Okay, real good.
That's, Steve.
Sure, bye.
Bye.
ittt
Hello?
HENRY: Is Steve around?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Can't hardly
HENRY: Is Steve there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: It's too
staticky, I can't hear
HENRY: It's
It's been like this --
UNIDENTIFIED
HENRY: Yeah
UNIDENTIFIED
minute.
STEVE:
HENRY:
STEVE: Yes.
HENRY: When
STEVE: Yes.
HENRY:
need to do. Take
Bradley.
STEVE:
HENRY:
you instructions as to
letter.Okay.47
you. Can you call back?
not going to get any better.
FEMALE SPEAKER: Oh, is that it?
Can you get Steve?
FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, just a
Hello?
Steve?
the Bradley comes into position,
-- okay, go ahead and do what you
the letter to about ten feet from the
And then stop and then they'll give
where they want you to lay the
STEVE: All right.
HENRY .= Okay?
STEVE: Sure
HENRY:
in just a little bit.And the Bradley should be coming up
STEVE: There's one sitting at the bend right
48now but apparently he's not part of that, huh?
HENRY: Probably not because they told methat they would let me know when the Bradley was in
position.
STEVE: Okay. I think -- yeah, you're rightcause someone just said to me just now that this one
came from the other end, I guess.
HENRY: Yeah.
STEVE: So, you're right.
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE: Okay. So, which am I doing first,
the letter or the incense?
HENRY: Why don't you ~~ why don't you do the-~ why don't you do the letter first and, you know, let
them give you instructions and then go back and, and do
the incense.
STEVE: Okay, just so you let them know that.
HENRY: I will.
STEVE: Okay.
HENRY: Okay, Steve.
STEVE: Okay, bye.
HENRY: Bye.
iiii
HENRY: Hello?
STEVE: Hello, Henry?
HENRY: Yeah.
HENRY: Now, go about ten feet from the --
End of Tape #202!