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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #146
3/21/93
. 1:02 A.M. 1:50 A.M.
v
2
Tape 146!
DAVID: -- carcass.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: Now, he's not in the desert, is he?
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: He's not in the secret chambers? But
indiscernible! the carcass is. That's a body, isn't
it? There will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days so the
sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light
and the stars shall fall from heaven. And the powers
of heaven shall be shaken. Remember the sixth seal?
JOHN: Yes, sir.
DAVID: Okay. Now, you know, we're in the
fifth seal?
JOHN: A great earthquake. Oh, I thought you
said the sixth.
DAVID: No. I said do you remember the sixth
seal.
JOHN: The sixth.
DAVID: When the sixth seal is opened the sun
moon and stars indiscernible!
JOHN: The great earthquake. The sun became
black.
DAVID: Exactly.
3
JOHN: The sack cloth, the hair over the moon
became as blood.
DAVID: Exactly. And the stars in heaven
indiscernible! '
JOHN: We are together.
DAVID: Okay. Now so, so in other words --
so now, this carcass -- eagles are gathered to this
carcass, right? Now, Christ - if someone says, "Hey,
John," Christ is out in the desert say no way. Hey,
John say I don't believe that because when he comes
it will be like lightning from the east that shines to
the west. Now, you know what's so clear? When you
come up here John in the book of Revelation, you see
God on the throne. He's got a book in his right hand
and there's lightnings, thunderings and voices, isn't
there, right there in heaven, right? And the father
gives to the lamb a book with seven seals, right? And
then there's all that written in the book of Revelation
which is a mystery. I mean, you know, you can read
that and you can pull your hair out trying to figure it
all out. And your opinions aren't going to do you no
good or anybody else any good, right? But you know
there's something about Christ to do with a white
horse, red horse, black horse, tall horse
indiscernible!. A time when the sun, moon and stars
will be darkened, an angel at the altar. What is all
this all about? What a mystery. But in the last
chapter Jesus says, "I, Jesus, hath sent my angel to
testify to you these things in the churches. I am the
root and the offspring of David, the black morning
star. Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me."
My reward is with me. I've got it. It's my reward.
God gave it to me. It's a book.
JOHN:
seal?
DAVID:Hey, when am I going to see the sixth
Well, I want you to see the first,
second, third and fourth first.
JOHN:
we've been there
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:Well, you said we're in the fifth and
for awhile.
No. We're in the fifth.
That's right.
You're not in the fifth.
How can you say that --
I know you aren't.
- with a straight face?
Hey, my face.is straight.
No, it isn't.
You see --
I know better than that.
- if you don't know the mystery of
, 5
God declared to the prophets, then you have not been
able to know about this carcass, so you don't know
about the eagles and if I stand before you and I --
JOHN: You know how hard I'm trying, do you
know, though?
DAVID: Well, you know this. What happens is
that when the sun, moon and stars have darkened, that
is the sixth seal, isn't it?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: So, in other words, the fifth seal,
the fourth seal, the third, the second, the first --
JOHN: Yes.
DAVID: -- had to be events that happened
prior to that.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay. So you don't know what's
happening.
JOHN: Well, I know what the fifth seal says.
DAVID: Souls under the altar, exactly. What
is that?
JOHN: What --
DAVID: What are they crying? They're
saying, they're saying, "Lord, how long."
JOHN: Thou shall not judge and avenge blood
on them that dwell on the earth.
6
DAVID: To dwell on the earth, exactly.
JOHN: Sure. And I know what that says.
DAVID: Okay. Who are those people? They're
the people who under the fourth seal and under the
third and second and first, they're people who've been
learning something about Christ that nobody has ever
known since the foundation of the world. Now, when the
fifth seal -- '
JOHN: No. They were given white robes, told
to rest a little longer and told --
DAVID: Until thy fellow servants shall be
killed as also thou was killed.
JOHN: Sure. And --
DAVID: And wouldn't you like to know what
the hell this is all about? '
JOHN: Yeah, but that's what we've been
discussing. yr
DAVID: Little by little and my nose is not
getting bigger.
JOHN: Not about that maybe.
DAVID: Okay. .
JOHN: However --
DAVID: So, in other words, the point is --
JOHN: - it depends how lengthy this is
going to be .
7
DAVID: Yeah, well. The point is --
JOHN: It stretched last night.
DAVID: But, John, you love me, though.
JOHN: I do. I do.
DAVID: So here's the thing. You know that
if Christ is telling disciples let no man deceive you,
you now that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Philip,
Peter and all those guys were there. Now, you know,
after Christ's death, Christ went to heaven and you
also know that the last message given to one of these
disciples who was with Christ on the Mount of Olive
with John and John was given the last message about the
revelation of Jesus Christ which it says, "Blessed he
that readeth, may he hear the words of this prophecy,
and those who keep the things written therein." Now,
you can only keep the things that God told you as in
the churches of Asia. Of course, we're not in Asia.
But after that the churches have no other burden. In
other words, the gospel is simple. Love your neighbor
as yourself. Let not your heart wax cold. Even though
there's wars and rumors of wars, don't let this bother
you. Christ is the example. Love your fellow man.
The gospel is simple. So from the time of the second
century all the way through, whether the papacy or the
Lutherans or the Methodists or the Baptists or people
8
who pronounce to know Christ or have seen Christ, it
all comes to one thing. No matter what you profess to
know, the key is that Christ stated, "Let not your
heart stop loving." You've got to keep loving. That's
the fire of the true gospel. Okay. Now, but the time
comes when one must be hereafter is the judgment was
set and the books must be opened like we learned last
night. And in the judgment said the father's on the
throne. The jury is there. All of heaven is there.
The father gives the book to the lamb and the last
thing in that testament is I'll promise to come and
bring this information to give it to you, John, and to
all those you want to know about it. You see? Because
indiscernible! not going to be judged by the law if
they've been looking for the mercy that is to be given
to them at the revelation of Jesus Christ. All the New
Testament writers, Peter, James, Matthew, all the New
Testament writers talk in the gospel, Hebrews, Romans,
Ephesians, Philippians, Galatians, about this gift
that's going to be brought to men in the latter days
who have tried to follow that hard thing to do. Let
not your heart wax cold. Yeah, legally we're bound
but, you know, the next door neighbor who might be
committed inequity might be fighting himself against
sin. He might do something against you, but forgive
O I
him for Christ's sake. You might do something
him that's wrong. Ask for forgiveness and for
sake forgive one another, turn a cheek, and so
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: But the day comes --
JOHN: But how, how many people take
literally? I
DAVID: Well, we hope --9
against
Christ's
forth.
that
JOHN: I mean really, how many people take
the true forgiveness, the true turning of the cheek,
literally? Very few, huh? -
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: But when the lamb comes, he's going
to bring together the elect, isn't he? And the elect
are going to learn seven seals that no one can deceive
them. But where the carcass is remember we're
talking about the coming of the son man indiscernible!
coming. If someone says hey, John, I know Christ.
He's out in the desert. Hey, none of my students would
ever say that to you. My students would say hey, John,
do you ever wonder about in the book of Revelations,
those seven seals? Hey, I know a guy that can
something. That's what my disciples would say.show you
JOHN: Well, I know they talk about the fifth
O D
10
seal, too, and talk about martyrdom and all of that
that we saw years ago, but the United States we
certainly haven't seen much of it over the history of
the United States. I mean, sure, we had the, the
witches in New England and we had a lot of other things
during the spread of Christ through the country I guess
with the Indians and Hispanics and historical, but when
in the seventh seal it says God is going to tell the
martyrs that when the last martyr has given up his life
he will judge the world, but not until that time.
» DAVID: Now, remember that - I
JOHN: And it's hard to say when that last
martyr is going to do that, isn't it?
DAVID: No. It's easy if you know what
Isaiah foretold of it.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Remember throughout the prophetic
writings --
JOHN: Well, that will get us right into the
sixth seal, won't it?
DAVID: Well, the sixth seal is an event. It
brings forth a group called the indiscernible! okay.
For instance, for instance, we know that in Psalms 45
there is the marriage of the lamb, right? Right?
Okay. So we know that in Matthew 24 Christ says where
ll
the carcass is the eagles will be gathered. Right?
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: So in the book of Joel, if we turn to
the book of Joel, we'll see something
these two statements, the carcass and
together. It's found in Joel 2. Let
real quick. I won't go too long into
you'll catch this right off the bat.that will bind
the marriage,
me show you here
this because
In Joel 2 it
says, "Blow the trumpet in Zion and sound an alarm in
my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land
tremble; for the day of the Lord cometh." In the
sixth seal the great day of the Lord is here, right?
That's the day of the Lord.
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: "For it is nigh at hand, a day of
darkness, of gloominess, a day of clouds and thick
darkness. As the morning spread upon
great people and a strong, there have
like, neither shall be any more afterthe mountains a
not been ever the
it, even to the
years of many generations." Now, this is the army that
you don't see as of yet. These guys are here right
now, you know. I know you don't understand this, but
there is 20,000 chariots parked all around this world
and --
JOHN: Well, you are you were saying the
12
chariots were the, the Bradleys. That's how you're --
DAVID: No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm talking
about the --
JOHN: I'm sorry?
DAVID: I'm talking about the nahavez
phonetic!. I'm talking about the chariots that come
from heaven, God's chariots.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: The nahavez. I'm talking about my
army. Now, watch. The difference is a fire -
JOHN: Your father's army?
DAVID: Well, it's my army.
JOHN: Oh, okay.
DAVID: Let me explain. Now, let me -- you
know, I know this gets kind of overboard sometimes, but
now watch -- bear with this fool.
I JOHN: It does.
DAVID: "A fire devoureth before them and
behind them a flame burneth. The land is as the garden
of Eden before them and behind them a desolate
wilderness, yea, and nothing shall escape them. The
appearance of them is as the appearance of horses and,
as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of
chariots on the tops of the mountains they shall leap.
O I
13
Like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the
stubble, as a strong people in set battle array.
Before their face the people," that's the ones who see
this, "shall be much pained. All faces shall gather
blackness. They shall run like might men. They shall
climb the wall like men of war. They shall march every
one on his way and they shall not break their ranks.
Neither shall one "
JOHN: Well, does that mean that we both have
mighty men?
DAVID: Well, let me explain. I told you
that --
JOHN: You got mighty men in there and we
have mighty men out here?
DAVID: Well, now, remember that the mighty
men spoken of in scripture --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: - are not of the flesh. God's
mighty men are not of the flesh. '
JOHN: Then they are --
DAVID: Well, so what happens is when you --
when we read a little further we'll find out.
JOHN: Well, who would they be?
DAVID: Well, let's watch. It's right here.
They run light mighty men. They come to wall. Neither
0
14
shall thrust one another. They shall not break their
path. If they fall on the sword they shall not be
wounded. They shall run to and from to the city. They
shall run upon the walls, climb the houses and enter
the houses like a thief. The earth shall quake before
them. Now remember, this is the event of the sixth
seal. The heavens shall tremble. The sun and moon
shall be darkened and the stars withdraw their shining.
That's the sixth seal. Remember?
JOHN: Yep. _
DAVID: So when the men of the earth say woe
that his wrath has come, the armies in heaven are sent
out to punish all those who blasphemed the one who
tried to teach them the seals.
JOHN: Well, why did, why did somebody
address some of the people in there with you as your
mighty men? ..
DAVID: It's a misrepresentation. I'm going
to show you this. Now, it's in here. The Lord --
JOHN: But they, but they did. You're aware
of that.
DAVID: Exactly. Now, let me explain this.
JOHN: Uhhuh. V
DAVID: "The Lord shall utter his voice
before his army for his camp is very great." It's 200
15
million. See? The world's outnumbered right now.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: "For he is strong that executes his
word." Now, before this happens the carcass, the lamb,
tries to warn the world, tries to teach of these
things. The father's coming. The Psalms say - shall
come before his faith. In other words, forewarning in
Psalms 2, the heathen rage must break his bands
asunder, right, but it says that he's going to kick
their rear ends, right?
JOHN: Uh-huhi
DAVID: But is says, you know, be wise, ye
kinds, be instructed ye judge of the earth. Serve the
Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the
Son least he be angry. Now, I'm impossible to get
angry, but the thing of it is is this. I want people
to know the truth.. It says here, "For the Lord shall
utter his voice before his army for his camp is very
great." See, this is God's army. For he is strong as
to his word. For the Day of the Lord is great and very
terrible who can abide it. Now, what it says over
here, it says, "Therefore, now say the Lord turn ye to
me with all your heart, with passion, with weeping and
with mourning. Rend your heard not your garments.
Turn to the Lord for he is gracious, merciful, slow to
* ¢ §
anger -- repent him of the evil. Right? Okay. It
says_right over here in verse 17, "Let the priest,
indiscernible! altar. Let them say spare thy people,
O Lord. Give not their heritage to reproach that the
heathen shall rule over them. Why should they say
among the people where is their God? Never the Lord be
jealous for his land and pity his people.
Indiscernible! and say behold, I will send you corn
and wine and all you should be satisfied therewith. It
says I will remove far from you the northern army and
will drive you unto a land barren and desolate.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: Now, when it gets over here it tells
us okay. In Chapter 1, Verse 14, Sanctify us that
- call a solemn assembly. Gather the elders and
inhabitants of the land to the house, Lord, your God,
cry unto the Lord. Alas for the day, for the day of
the Lord is at hand. As a destruction from the
Almighty shall it come. Okay? _
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now, right over here. Verses 16,
gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble
the elders, gather the children and those that suck the
breast. Let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber and
the bride out of her closet. Who's the bridegroom?
17
Christ.
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Who's the bride? She's hid. You
won't know who she is until - well, Psalms 45 says a
lamb's going to kick butt, right? He's a tough guy,
right? But we won't know that ahead of time. It also
says hearken daughter and consider. We know the
marriage of the lamb's going to come. Now, Matthew 24
where the carcass is, if somebody kills him, bad news,
isn't it? Who are the eagles? Well, Isaiah already
told us before. Isaiah said the Lord will come to
strong hand. His reward is with him indiscernible!
shepherd._ It says the youth will be weary
indiscernible shall they fall. Like you're saying,
we've got a problem here. But now those go to the Lord
shall renew their strength, They will mount up with
wings as eagles. okay? So this is what brings us to
the fall of Babylon. Now, we're just lightly going
over this, but like in Isaiah 13, this is the mighty
men that's found in Joel 2, Zephaniah, Obadiah.
Malachi, Habakkuk, all that have been foretold by the
ancient prophets to bring the fall of Babylon in the
latter days. Gods says in Jeremiah that Babylon will
eventually control the whole world, the nations and the
power of men, so in Chapter 13 of Isaiah when it says
18
the burden of Babylon which Isaiah, the son of Amos did
see, lift ye up a bear up on the high mountain. Exalt
the voice, and there's only one voice. Only one voice
can proclaim the seven seals. Shake the hand. What's
in the hand? The book, the book, the voice, the book,
that they may go on indiscernible! we don't want
anybody hurt. We want people to become priests and
kings. I have commanded my sanctified ones. I've also
called my mighty ones from thine anger. Even them that
rejoice in my highness. God sits on a throne in
heaven. Who's bigger? .Who's better? Who's greater?
Hum? Indiscernible! in the mountains, Joel says, a
tumult in the mountains, right? Like as a great
people, a tumultuous noise of the kings of the nations
gather together. The Lord of host, that's thekfather,
lust with the host of the battle. This battle is going
to be a hot one, but they come from a far country. How
far? From the end of heaven. Even the Lord and the
weapons indiscernible! any nation to destroy the whole
land. How ye, for the day of the Lord is at hand. It
shall come as destruction from the Almighty.
Therefore, shall all hands be indiscernible! and the
man's heart shall melt. They shall be afraid. Pain
and sorrow shall take hold of them. They shall be in
pain as a woman that travaileth. They shall be amazed
»
§
I-
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I
'9219
at one another for their faces shall be as flames.
See,_these people you never met them before, but their
faces are like flames. Remember the angel in
Revelation 10, his faces were the sun? Indiscernible!
both with wrath and fierce anger to lay the land
desolate and he shall destroy the sinners out of it,
for the stars of heaven and the constellations of earth
shall not give their light. The sun shall be dark and
is going forth and the moon shall not cause her light
to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil
and the wicked for their inequity, and I will cause the
arrogancy of the proud to cease and will lay low the
haughtiness of the terrible. Man, that's bad. That's
bad. But that's all right because, you see, these
things can't happen until the carcass. I will make a
man more precious than fine gold. You know, before
Christ does anything to anybody in this world you
know, you can't judge a man, John, until you walk in
their shoes. You know what I mean?
JOHN: Yeah, and it's almost impossible to
walk in most people's shoes. A
DAVID: I know, but let me tell you one
thing.
JOHN: You know, none of us were raised in
the same environment --
20
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: -- received the same education.
DAVID: I agree with you. I agree with you.
JOHN: You know, urban, rural, you name it,
and --
DAVID: I agree with you.
JOHN: And that's one thing we - I
constantly teach and other oeople that teach courses
say don't try to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
DAVID: Exactly. I agree with you. You're
just like I am. So you know what I asked of my father
in heaven? I asked my father totally just to blot --
like if - you know, the -- to be born in this world
and to live 25, 30 years is enough punishment for
anybody.
JOHN: Na.
DAVID: You don't think so?
JOHN: No, no, no. Life doesn't even begin
until you're 40.
DAVID: Well, then that's enough punishment
then.
JOHN: No. You want to grow up, see your
children have children --
DAVID: Well, you don't want to --
JOHN: -- and enjoy them.
21
DAVID: What I'm saying is --
JOHN: Enjoy them.
DAVID: you don't want to have to face the
Ten Commandment law and be punished for your sins, do
you?
JOHN: Well, we all will be, though, won't
we?
DAVID: No.
JOHN: Yeah, we will -
DAVID: No.
JOHN: - unless we are free of sin.
DAVID: Well, what happens is that is a gift.
when Zacharias says there's a rock with seven eyes --
JOHN: Yep.
DAVID: -- God says he will remove the
inequity of that land in one day. Those who learn
about the rock in heaven that sits on the throne and
eyes of the lamb, they learn the seven seals, they will
not be held responsible for their sins. But those who
deny these things, they're going to be involved in that
sixth seal event and they're going to be found naked.
So it says right here that everyone is found - they
shall - everyone is joined shall fall with the sword.
The children also shall be dashed to pieces before
their eyes. The houses shall be spoiled. I mean,
22
that's terrible, isn't it?
JOHN: Well, other than those that learn of
the seven seals, they're going to have a very rewarding
life, aren't they?
DAVID: Well, the thing of it is --
JOHN: Isn't that what that says?
DAVID: The thing of it is that those who
learn the seven seals - I
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: are going to get a rewarding life.
Those who don't care about these things are going to be
severely punished.
JOHN: Yep.
DAVID: Because in rejecting the truth, you
know - y
JOHN: But, you know, when you're saying
those who don't care about it, you know, that's a
difficult thing because many may have never been
offered the opportunity to be aware of it.
DAVID: Well, they are, they are now, aren't
they?
JOHN: Well, some, you know, in a limited --
DAVID: You did promise to me that that tape
was being introduced all over the United States, right?
JOHN: It is and it was, yet how many people
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will sit down and say well, fine, I heard that, boop,
boop, boop and off they go? What I'm saying is people
that grasp it and you have so many people that are just
going to take things with a grain of salt --
DAVID: That's right.
JOHN: - instead of trying to spend some
time to understand something. That's what I mean. You
know, many are given the opportunity. Many are not
given the opportunity.
DAVID: Okay. So now Matthew 24, Christ says
that one of the seals is to be fulfilled, right, after
the carcass now we know the carcass is a dead body
and we know --
JOHN: I guess some could interpret the
DAVID: No.
JOHN: - carcass as being Christ.
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Exactly. No wonder he says on the
fifth seal, the souls under the altar that were slain
for the word of God. -
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: They were slain by those who would
not listen. And it says and the sun, moon and stars
shall be dark and it says then shall fear the sign of
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the son of man in heaven. Now, they're going to find
out that that guy in heaven looks exactly like the guy
they just killed. And it says here and they shall all
the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the
son of man come in in the clouds. Remember Daniel 7?
Remember we learned about the beast that had the big
mouth and all that and finally the Ancient of Days came
and the son of man was brought before him with glory
and great power. And he shall send his angels with a
great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together
his elect from the four winds and from one end of the
heaven to the other. Now, learn the parable of a fig
tree. When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth
leaves, ye know that summer is nigh. See, we're coming
to the Passover now, aren't we? Which that's
springtime, isn't it? So, likewise, when ye shall see
all these things know that it is near, even at the
doors. Verily I say unto you this generation shall not
pass until all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and
earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away.
But at that day and hour, knoweth no man, no, not the
angels of heaven, but my father only. But as in the
days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the son
of man be. Whereas, in the days of Noah were before
the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and
giving in marriage, until the day that Noah en25
tered
into the Ark, and knew not until the flood came and
took them all away. So shall also the coming of the
son of man be. There shall be two in the field. The
one shall be taken and the other left. Two
the meal. The one will be taken, the other
Watch, therefore, for ye know not what hour
doth come. But know this, that if the goodwomen grind
left.
your Lord
man of the
house had known and watched, the thief would come, you
know, he would have watched. Now, Christ has called
himself a thief, right? »And not have suffered his
house to be broken up. Therefore, be ye also ready for
in such an hour you think not the son of man cometh.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant whom his Lord
has made ruler over all his households? See, Christ
left men in charge of his church, right, to give them
meat in due season. Blessed that servant whom
when he cometh shall find so doing. There's a
people all over, John, who are saying to their
read the bible, read the bible. There's a lot
preachers out there. You know, they're saying
these are --
JOHN: That's not a bad idea, though
DAVID: Huh?
JOHN: It's not a bad idea.his Lord
lot of
churches
of good
well,
, is it?
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DAVID: Well, exactly. They're saying,
they're saying to their flocks you know, I don't know
everything. Now in the book of Revelation there's
something here we don't know, but one day we're
supposed to know it and when it's that time of the year
we'll learn it. See, they're getting their people
ready for what they can see. verily I say unto you
that he shall make him move over all his goods, but if
that evil servant shall stay in his heart, my Lord
delayeth is coming and shall begin to smite his fellow
servants and to eat and drink with the drunken. The
Lord of that service shall come at a day he looks not
for and how he thinks not and will cut him asunder and
appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There
shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it goes on
to say then the kingdom of heaven will be like these
ten virgins. Five are wise, five are foolish. The
five wise didn't have extra oil. The extra oil is
nothing more than the fact about the marriage. The
marriage is found in the knowledge of the seven seals.
When Joel says let the bridegroom go forth to his
chamber I mean, when the carcass takes place,
definitely Christ could be crucified again, couldn't
he? If he was to come today in a way that the world
does not know --
/27
JOHN: Well, he may or he may not be.
V DAVID: Well, the thing of it is in Matthew
24 what did he say? He said where the carcass is
eagles be gathered there and what did Isaiah say? That
when the Lord comes
reward, and he will
Don't you think his
that they'll be his
They'll be gatheredhe'll come with a book, with
gather his flock like a shepherd.
flock are the elect? And it says
eagles. They'll be his eagles.
together to him, won't they? For
sure the knowledge of the seven seals, the 144,000,
which are from all over the world. They learn the
seven seals, don't they?
JOHN: That's what it says.
DAVID: And they finally stand on Mt. Zion.
So you know --
JOHN: And we both know that 144,000 aren't
going to fit on Mt. Zion, huh?
DAVID: Until Zachariah 14.
JOHN:~ Yep
DAVID: When the Lord's mighty army comes
forth to deliver his people, then those who are
imprisoned and those who've been killed and those
who've been executed and those who've been put aside
will be the delivered. His elect will be delivered.
Nobody can stop that. And the fashion of this world
4
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and the power of this world and the man of this world
shall pass away. The stone's going to hit the image in
the feet and it's all going to be like chaff on the
summer threshing floor. The wind's just going to blow
them all away. And we don't want that to happen, do
we? Now we want to learn these seven seals even if
it's from the horse of a -- from the mouth of a
jackass.
JOHN: But we want a lot of people to learn,
don't we?
DAVID: Yeah, but they're going to.
JOHN: Well, we hope they are.
DAVID: I haven't been sitting on my rear
since 1985, now remember, John. Not everybody, not
everybody that's with me is right here. There's people
all over this world you don't know anything about and
they've been told to say nothing, that when the crisis
happens not to come out of the woodwork. There's a lot
of people all over the world, you know. This message
is not just something a few dumb people accept.
JOHN: Well, I hope that are many more that
are going to have the privilege of hearing the word,
too. Don't you?
DAVID: Well, what do the scriptures say?
What happens is is that after the 140,000 have been
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sealed when the events first spoken by prophecy are
fulfilled, if the nation -- you know, the heathens
rage. If they don't give the fair ear and the fair
trial to that carcass, what happens is that then the
execution of God's judgment takes place and God removes
them. You know Babylon falls. God says his wrath is
against all the nations and their leaders shall be
removed, and then there will be an indiscernible! set
up on Mt. Zion and all nations -- in the last days many
people shall go and say come, let's go learn his ways.
They're going to find out which is the true king. And
so then, as it says in Revelations --
JOHN: Well, how long is it going to take us
to find that out?
DAVID: Well, we're right in the makings of
it. It's coming faster than you'd really want if you
knew . M
JOHN: Well, that's what I've been trying to
find out --
DAVID: See --
JOHN: -- and I've been asking you, too,
haven't I? John Dolan has and -- and one of the
problems is that John and I probably won't be around
here much longer, you know. I don't know if he, I
don't know if he mentioned that to you today, but --
30
DAVID: I know. You all are fixing to move
on.
JOHN: Well, we're not doing it because we
want to. Somebody just doesn't think we're being very
proficient at what we do and -- I don't know, but --
DAVID: So you've never had a guy that's as
much of a rock as this guy before?
JOHN: Well, I guess some, some folks may
feel that we're just not doing our job right and --
DAVID: All I'm doing is protecting my
people. Remember it's not from you. It's - N
JOHN: Hey, they have have either John or
I said we don't believe that?
DAVID: No.
JOHN: No, not at all. t
DAVID: I mean, why do you think I'm still
talking to you like this for even those my nose is
getting longer but, you know --
JOHN: It is a little.
DAVID: You know God - you know God's nose
is not getting longer. -
JOHN: Sure. You think I - do you think I
want to leave here under this environment?
DAVID: I don't - I hope not. I hope you
want to stay and --
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JOHN: Yeah, I do.
DAVID: - catch some of these studies.
JOHN: Well, I want to stay and catch a whole
bunch of things.
DAVID: Now, watch this. Isn't it funny,
though - John, isn't it funny how we've already heard
from Joel and Isaiah about the sixth seal? Right there
in the book - this must be hereafter. So you would
think that with our sober minds, you being a negotiator
having to deal with wackos, you would think that we'd
have enough insight to ask the question well, then if,
if the sixth seal is so plainly recorded by the
prophets, then you would think that the events of the
fifth seal and the fourth and the third and second and
first would likewise be recorded, wouldn't they? Which
makes Revelation true, that this mystery guy will be
finished as God declared to the prophets, right? Maybe
I'm not so crazy after all. I mean, I look like it. I
may act like it.
JOHN: Well, neither I don't know that
anybody that's been talking to you on this phone has
said you were. We --
DAVID: ~Just this week --
JOHN: I would say the, I would say the
biggest problem that any of us had was not
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1 _ !~ |"~
32
understanding.
. DAVID: I'm working with you.
JOHN: You're trying, aren't you?
DAVID: I'm trying, John. You know, I --
like I said --
JOHN: I'm working with you, too, aren't I?
DAVID: I've been, I've been threatened and
I've been, you know --
JOHN: Not by us. Not by the people talking
to you, you haven't, though, have you? .
DAVID: Not so much directly. Like I say, I
hope that when --
JOHN: Well, you haven't.
DAVID: I hope that when the things that have
happened, that have happened, and that you've been just
as surprised as I have.
JOHN: And I hope that things that you
perceive as a threat since we've been communicating
you'll realize really aren't, aren't a threat and I
hope that --
DAVID: But what, what do you all think about
that star coming? I noticed that it got over the radio
last night. I was told -- my father told me to turn
the radio on at the right time --
JOHN: I think --
33
DAVID: - and they were saying that --
JOHN: I think that could be the sixth seal.
DAVID: That's not the sixth seal.
JOHN: Why, why do you say that?
DAVID: Because the prophets and my father
and I we all know what the sixth seal is.
JOHN: Well, that doesn't mean everybody else
does.
DAVID: Okay. So why speculate and make it a
statement from my mouth?
JOHN: Well -
DAVID: David says, David - David
nothing.didn't say
JOHN: I didn't say that, did I? I just said
it may be. ~
DAVID: The -- said that and the news
couldn't have got to them except it went through you
all.
JOHN:~ What? The news said that?
DAVID: Yep.
JOHN: Well, I don't know about it
I'm telling you is the truth. I do not know
DAVID: Well, you're without fault
JOHN: I haven't heard it from the
if I had, I'd tell you. I really haven't.and what
about it.
then.
news and
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DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: Truthfully. I have watched no
television today and what news I've listened to, I
didn't hear it.
DAVID: So that's the whole point, though.
Christ knows the seals, don't he?
JOHN: Yep, he does. I
DAVID: And he told his disciples let no man
deceive you. Now, the Papacy came. The Papacy --
JOHN: Let me ask you something.
DAVID: Yes, sir.
JOHN: You gonna let me go home early -
DAVID: Well, I hope.
JOHN: -- or you gonna let me stick around
here and see this thing out? Huh? You gonna help me?
DAVID: Are you going to let me show you the
seals? '_
JOHN: Are you going to help me?
DAVID: Or you going to have to end up being
in that barb-que pit with all the other --
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: - men of the world who flaunt their
minds above the mind of God? John, don't make me do
that. .
JOHN: How, how patient do you think I've
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been?
V DAVID: Not really very much really in the
sight of God.
JOHN: Really? You don't think so?
DAVID: But look who you might be dealing
with, John?
JOHN: Look -- yeah.
DAVID: Just because I seem weak and fragile
and kind of funny doesn't mean that, you know. I might
be deceiving. Q
JOHN: That's always a possibility.
DAVID: Just because you've heard the
negative side of me from other people's mouths --
JOHN: Well, I'm hoping that you'll help me
and that you'll help John and you'll really, really
help us in the morning, you know.
DAVID: Well, I tell you what, I --
JOHN: And we thought Rita was finally going
to be coming out of there tonight.
DAVID: Well, I told you, I told you the
situation. I've not lied to you.
JOHN: I know you did.
DAVID: Okay. So here's --
JOHN: Oh, I'm not saying that you have, am
I?
36
DAVID: Here's the thing now.
JOHN: You know, you just said Rita and
others. That's exactly what I passed on, Rita and
others, because when I talked to you last night you
said, hey, you know, if I tell you two, somehow we'll
have more and if I tell you ten and five come out, and
I said fine, and you said Rita and others and that's
exactly what I, what I passed and obviously Rita had
some reservations about it, you know, and I understand,
I understand that. But what John and I and everybody
else who has talked to you from where we are are
really, really trying hard. And when I tell you hard,
to show our credibility to somebody, you can't believe
how difficult it may be sometimes. And the greatest
sign of our credibility is what happened tonight and I
guess you understand that, don't you?
DAVID: Well, I've been working with you.
JOHN: I know you have and I know Steve has.
I know -- '
DAVID: And I've been working harder with
these people. *
» JOHN: I believe you.
DAVID: Look at the gospels of 2000 years
ago.
JOHN: I really believe you, but --
DAVID:
disciples fools?
JOHN:
DAVID:
here.
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
there?
DAVID:
JOHN:
from Louisiana.
DAVID:
JOHN:37
How many times did Christ call his
You fools. Huh?
Umhum.
Now, four ATP agents were killed
Uhhuh.
Do you realize that?
That four ATP agents were killed
Were killed here.
Well, sure. I know three of them were
Right. The fools.
And a lot of other people were killed,
too, weren't they?
DAVID:
nothing.
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
through a lot of
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:Right. But, see, our being killed is
Our lif¬i+-
Why do you say that?
Our life begins.
You don't think that, that Rachel goes
anguish over what happened to her dad?
Rachel? '
?erry.
No.
Perry.
' 0
38
DAVID: No, she doesn't.
JOHN: Why not?
DAVID: Because she knows.
JOHN: I mean, she certainly seemed
distraught over it.
DAVID: No.
JOHN: That's anguish.
DAVID: No. No. She's there's a lot of
people that knew Perry. Everybody loved Perry in town.
Everybody in Waco knew Perry. Donnie Osmond knows
Perry. Aretha Franklin knows Perry. John Denver knows
Perry. A lot of celebrities know Perry.
JOHN: How come answer something. Answer
me something then and - I don't have the answer.
That's why I'm asking you. How come Rachel didn't want
him buried out there, you know, like, like the - you
people did for, for Peter?
DAVID: Peter was done for a reason.
Q JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: To prove something.
JOHN: What?
DAVID: Well, I dew: think you would
understand.
JOHN: Well, try me.
DAVID: First of all, when you asked for the
I
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39
casualties here, right?
JOHN: Uh-huh, yeah.
DAVID: In the beginning of the negotiations
ATF was working with us.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Now, give me some space to be
realistic. A
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: When they told Christ to go up to the
feast, Christ said I go now to this feast, but then he
went secretively, didn't he? Uh-huh.
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Christ couldn't walk many places in
Judea because they were out to kill him, right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay. So the thing of it is is that,
you know, we cannot tell you everything straight up
front. It's impossible. You would not believe us.
You have a certain perspective of our situation and of
our purpose, and what you've seen so far is not too
good in your sight. The way the world witnesses this
JOHN: Well, what do you mean not, what do
you mean not too good?
DAVID: Well, we are apparently a bad people.
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We were never bad at any time or any other time until
we were challenged by a system that, that wanted to
fire instead of knock. Now, no one's going to hear us
on that. God hears us, though.
JOHN: Well, somebody's going to hear you on
it.
DAVID: Yes. But, you know, when you saw
the, the ATP agents afterwards, I mean, there was a lot
of cussing. There was a lot of condemning. There was
a - you know, them blank, them blank, blank, blank,
blank. What a minute. " l
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: I stepped out the front door. You
know, I was there with my hand out trying to talk and
they were all screaming like a football team. Hey,
when that gun went off and hit the - it hit the door
where my hand was, am I supposed to still stand there?
JOHN: No.
DAVID: No. I mean, I you know, I guess I
should have but, you know, I had to step back in and
close the door and then i
JOHN: Well, I know you've you know, you
explained to me everything that went there and what
happened to Perry and everything, and I just don't
understand why you wouldn't want some Christian burial
-41
or Christian service for him or anyone else that --
DAVID: Do you think
Christian burial? He's buried
were thrown. We were promised
and take our dead, and as soonPeter Gent is a
out there where the dogs
that they would come in
as the ATF agents were
picked up and taken out, then no doctors were brought
in. They gave us nothing. All they kept saying was
bring people out, bring people out, bring people out.
And then all of a sudden they tried to chastise us.
There's the first mark of the lamb.
JOHN: Well, do you think if I told you that
we are -- we would care for anybody injured in there,
that I'm lying to you?
DAVID: At this stage in the game you have --
JOHN: No. The first - from the first
conversation I had with you or John or Jim or Henry or
Max or anybody, you know, had with you. If we told you
we would care for your injured, do you think we were
lying to you?
DAVID: Well, let me9292
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92
say this much.
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92DAVID: Hypothetically in your own heart,
maybe not, but your --92
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JOHN: It's not hypothetical. I tell you the
truth.
I DAVID: Wait a minute, John. Wait a minute,
John. You're talking to me now.
JOHN: I know.
DAVID: You're talking to the person on this
side of the experience. -
JOHN: Yep .
DAVID: When it came down to fulfilling what
they told me in the beginning, they did not. They did
not send the doctors in here. They did not cone.
JOHN: And they told you they would?
DAVID: Yes, they did.
JOHN: I mean --
DAVID: we called, John. It's in reoord.
I'm sure it's on record.
JOHN: That happened on the 28th?
DAVID: The Sunday.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: And we told them - we said look,
cease fire, cease fire, cease fire.
JOHN: Sure. I'm aware of that.
DAVID: We said look, you've got wounded out
here. We saw people on the ground. You know, they've
been shot. I told people - I said this was wrong. I
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said look, now, get on the phone, tell them to come and
pick these people up.
I JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: We're the ones who --
JOHN: Which they did.
DAVID: Which they did.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: And they tela us -- they said well,
okay, Dave. You're a reasonable man. Okay. You know,
because they didn't know who they was dealing with as
of yet. Jim didn't, Jim-/didn't know as of yet. Mr.
Lynch did not know as of yet what they're dealing with.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Okay. They expect me to be
irrational. They expect me to be a fanatic. You know,
they you couldn't help but to expect. No one has
ever been confronted with a show of force like they saw
that day. Now - but here's the thing. They asked if
there were any wounded in here and I said yes. Were
there any dead? I said yes.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: But on the other hand again I have
another viewpoint that you all don't understand.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: And so at that point --
44
JOHN: Which is?
DAVID: It's called inspiration.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: And so at that point things had to be
measured We had to try to find connections to people
that were really honestly involved. Jim came on the
scene and Jim says well, I'd really appreciate you
doing this, Dave. You know, I really appreciate that
you're concerned about our wounded. We're concerned
about yours. You know, do you have anybody in there
wounded? I says yes, we do. Do they need medical
attention? You know, I said, I said yes. We'll work
this out. And so then we asked - we said well, look,
bring the doctors in, you know. Well, can you send
them out? No. But, you know, can you - you know, the
people think yes, you know. Can you take them out?
Well, send people out. No. And as soon as all the
people were picked up, the dead and the wounded and
everything, all of a sudden we are - we're locked in.
JOHN: Well, I think that we've tried to
explain to you basically L
DAVID: The commanders.
JOHN: - the posture that -- and this
situation is no more unique than any other situation
that I've been involved in where - whether you want to
45
consider it a barricaded situation or anything else --
but a confrontational situation where medical people
are just not no one is allowed inside an inner
perimeter because of the responsibility that law
enforcement has for their health, their welfare, and
it's our responsibility. And if anything should happen
to them, anything should happen to them, we're going to
be in a, in a real libelous situation and we just can't
afford to do that. Yet our option is to say we're here
and if you want to bring someone out, we will give them
that care, and I think that's basically what we said
all along and we haven't, we haven't lied about it.
DAVID: Yes, you have.
JOHN: Why? What did, what did we say?
DAVID: John, the promise was under the
negotiations that they would do for us as we'd shown
the courtesy for you. We showed courtesy towards your
men, you see.
JOHN: Well, do you think that the actions
that were, were conducted on the 28th where you just
had a lot of adrenaline flowing --
DAVID: No, no, no, no.
JOHN: - and I'm talking about after, you
know, the truce, the cease fire, whatever it was --
~
92
,-
'46
DAVID: Right.
JOHN: - you know, whatever label you want
to put on something like that, that you had a lot of
adrenaline pumping. You had a lot of ill will. You
had a lot of animosity and a lot of people upset. And
by not sending in medical help that were to remove
deceased, to care for the wounded, injured, you know,
whatever you want to call them, they didn't do that to
punish you. The did it because they didn't understand
you and they didn't --
DAVID: I believe that. '
JOHN: And they were afraid because of what
they've just witnessed, and I kind of believe that
that's probably what happened.
DAVID: I believe you.
JOHN: You know, not because they're trying
to punish you. They were just totally scared to death
and didn't know what to expect.
DAVID: Exactly. But --
JOHN: And that's why once we started
communicating with you we, meaning the people that have
been talking to you over the phone where I am, we
basically told you the posture that we had to take is
if people come out, they'll be given medical attention
and we certainly aren't going to lie about it. We
Q
47
will. And if there are deceased in there, if they want
to be brought out, we'll certainly take care of them,
as well, and that's the truth. I just hope you can
understand it. I don't know what else I could tell you
concerning that issue because that's about the facts as
well as I know them, you know. And I can't tell you --
I can't comment on the facts of the 28th because I was
not there and I think you've totally, clearly explained
to me as best as you can you side of what happened that
day, you know, and unless I was there myself, how could
I comment on it? It wouldn't be fair, would it?
DAVID: Like I say, I'm a political
representative. I've always made that statement since
Day 1. I go to the laws of the flesh. I'm under the
United States of America. My passport's American.
JOHN: Uhhuh.
DAVID: I,- American, but also Jeremiah
states God is a snare for Babylon. There's no reason
or confusion. When this nation who puts God upon its
currency is required to look up hither to catch a
higher vision of justice and judgment, it sees that
there's a rainbow above the --
End of tape 146.!
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #147
3/21/93
1=so A.M. - 2=37 A.M.
Q W Q
2
Tape 147!
DAVID: -- you know, myself being shot. I've
more than shown that my mind is in heavenly places. My
concern for life --
JOHN: And you're not the only one, though.
DAVID: -- and humanity is - all I can say,
when it comes back to the --
JOHN= I mean, I don't just, I don't -- I
just don't care for -- to help Judy or to help the
other David or to help Scott. I care to help you. And
if -- R '
DAVID: lndiscernible!.
JOHN: -- there's somebody else in, if
there's somebody else in there, you know, that's either
injured or that we should do some Christian service for
them, I care about those people and I hope you believe
that.
DAVID: Well, the Christian service is more
than just aiding people in their human discomforts.
It's also a principle of law.
JOHN: Well, sure it is.
DAVID: The law is the seals. You know, the
days bring -- you know, Job has told --
JOHN: But I hope you believe what I'm
telling you.
DAVID: In your case -
3
JOHN: Do you?
DAVID: -- it will all be totally brought to
light. Remember that. But you're not speaking in
behalf of the actions of everybody else. You're
speaking your empathies in regards to the situation and
I --
JOHN: No. I'm speaking of all the guys that
have talked to you on the telephone.
DAVID: Baloney.
JOHN: Why?
DAVID: Because --
JOHN: Well, I can't tell you the guys that
talk to you on the telephone on the 28th. I can't do
anything about that, can I?
DAVID: Yeah, or the first preliminary parts
of this.
JOHN: But I can tell you about all of our
people that have talked to you since I've been here on
the lst. We've had the same goal in mind and I think
in the end it's your goal also, the safe resolution of
this situation. V
DAVID: Right, and that's what I'm confirming
to the people, that even if we --
JOHN: And it's not - it hasn't been easy.
has it?
EVEN: Even if we end up on the cross, we're
0 O
safe in the hands of God. Hey, I've done it before.
can do it again.
JOHN: I hear you.
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Can you pull
that thing back up and redo it? Okay.
JOHN: Pardon me?
DAVID: So, John, let me -- let's pretend
here for a second. Let's pretend, let's pretend I'm
the, I'm the Minister of Israel. Okay? Let's pretend
I'm the President.
JOHN: Let's pretend you're David Koresh and
you're going to do me a big favor tomorrow morning,
too. Can we pretend that?
DAVID: John.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: I have been very patient with you,
haven't I? ~
JOHN: Nell, haven't, haven't I been very
patient? Huh?
DAVID: Who has the bigger hand in the -- wh
has the better hand at cards, you or me?
JOHN: I guess it depends which side of the
coin you're looking at it from.
DAVID: If we're looking at God on a throne,
who's got the better hand at cards?
JOHN: Well, I don't know. I don't know.4
I
O
5
DAVID: Well, look at the - review those six
seals throughout the prophecies again.
JOHN: I have. I have. That's why I'm
hoping the guy with the big hand can do me and John
Dolan a big favor tomorrow morning.
DAVID: Well, it will be in respect of my
father and myself.
JOHN: I hope so.
DAVID: Remember, God saves for himself.
God's a very jealous god. He doesn't save souls for
the churches. He doesn't save souls for men.- He saves
souls for himself. I
JOHN: Well -- hello? Hello? Hello? Hello?
Dial tone.!
Redialing of phone. Busy signal.!
Phone ringing.!
STEVE: Hello?
JOHN:_ Hey?
swam: = Hey.
JOHN: What did that guy do?
STEVE: You know, I must have kicked the --
what happened is we're on lantern power here, not
electricity anymore. The darn thing went out. I
couldn't see what was going on. I accidentally stepped
on the cord.
JOHN: Well, I thought he was mad at me or
6
something.
STEVE: No. In fact, he said, "What did you
do? What did you do to me?" Here he is.
JOHN: All right.
DAVID: No. You know that's not the case of
me. Okay. For instance, the key of David opens the
Psalms, right, John?
JOHN: Hey, you haven't answered mine yet.
DAVID: Yeah, I have.
JOHN: I'm being very patient with you, too.
DAVID: Yeah; but my patience --
JOHN: Are you going to help John Dolan and I
tomorrow morning?
DAVID: I'm going to help the souls that are
in my ranks and they're going to come out --
JOHN: Great.
DAVID: -- into your hands.
JOHN: Great. Great. Great.
DAVID: Where we're at right now --
JOHN: You don't know how much, how much good
that will do for, for his credibility and my
credibility because --
DAVID: Oh, well, here's the thing --
JOHN: -- we don't, we don't want to go home
until this thing's resolved.
DAVID: Well, tell him -- okay. I'll tell
92 IO O
7
you what I'll do then.
JOHN: And unless --
DAVID: I'll request that you all stay on to
the end.
JOHN: That won't handle it.
DAVID: It won't? Well, they have to come in
here and kill us then, don't they?
. JOHN: No, but_they just think that -- I
don't know -- that, you know, people have to rotate out
and they just feel that, I guess, we haven't been
productive no matter what our response is or our reply
is and we're just looking for something to really show
some credibility and whether it's, you know, three,
four, five, six. You got the magic finger in there
and, and that's going to be the thing that shows our
credibility. i
DAVID: All right then. Let's turn to Psalms
2. See, there's other people sitting in here while I'm
giving you these studies.
JOHN: Good.
DAVID: They're hearing them, too.
JOHN: They --
DAVID: They're confirmed.
JOHN: They must think I am not a happy
fellow, huh, not a happy camper, keeping them all up?
DAVID: No, no, no, no. Like you say, I've
C C
8
had, I've had to make people leave me for, you know, --
well, we'll get into that later. Okay. Now, I'm going
to show you the first four psalms so you can understand
about this key of David. All right? Now, when you
come up to where I come from, when you come up hither,
the last book of the Bible -- every book of the Bible, 92
John, meets and ends in the book of Revelation. Okay?
That's a key. My students are taught that in the light
of the judgment every statement of scripture is to be
weighed and tested. Okay? Now, in Psalms 1 the
testament is blessed is the man that walketh not in the
counsel of the ungodly. Now, wait a minute. Who is
ungodly? Who's to judge? Well, second question, who
only is godly? God is godly. Right? You there with
me?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID:- Cod is godly. Well, what are God's
counsels? Well, a person can read all through the
Bible all they want and there's all kinds of counsels
from God, but what does it mean? What is it telling
us? Everyone's got their opinion. That's fine. But
in the judgment, in the revelation of Jesus Christ,
God's got counsels that are sealed and those seals
contain something about Christ and that is godly. Now,
if we go in the counsel of God, we will know that one
day Christ will come and reveal to us these seals.
O Q
9
Right? Now, a man is blessed if he walks in God's
counsel, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in
the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the
law of the Lord and in his law doth he meditate day and
night. Okay. The Ten Commandments, beautiful law.
JOHN: And how people -- how many people
meditate day and night?
DAVID: Not many, John.
JOHN: I can think of a couple.
DAVID: It's not interesting.
JOHN: I can think of a couple.
DAVID: Well, we know of at least one, don't
we?
JOHN: We can think of two.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: One on either end of this phone.
DAVID: Exactly. Let's continue. Now,
Christ is the law and the law is on the cross. If I be
lifted up, I will draw all men into me. Christ commits
his spirit into the hand of God, so in the hand of God
there is a book. Isaiah S1 says harken me that seek
out the righteousness. You that seek the Lord look to
the rock whereby you are hewn.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Look to the pit from which you are
dug. Humanly you can do nothing, but if you look to
God, God can do all10
things. And harken my people for a
law shall proceed from me and I will make my judgment
to rest for a light to the people. What is God's
judgment? God's judgment is his word. He gives his
word to his son. I
something you nevercome -- I'm going to show you
seen before. I have a key of David
and by looking at this law, you're going to see there's
a law called prophecy. There is a law of God which is
greater than the Ten Commandment law. It's God's power
to make you perfect, John. It's God's power to make
you equal with your brother, Christ. You could never
in your own strength become perfect like Christ, could
you?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: But Christ could come and become
unperfect like you,
that must be. Now,
find out where this
like a tree plantedbut whatever the word of God says,
if you heard about this law and
law is found, then you shall be
by the rivers of water that
bringeth forth his fruit in his season. And your
leaves shall not wither and whosever you doeth shall
prosper, but the ungodly are not so, but are like the
chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore, the
ungodly shall not stand in the judgment.
JOHN: How long is it going to take Christ to
make me perfect?
n
ll
DAVID: Well, remember, you're going to
receive a word of truth.
' JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: The word of truth is going to be in
the seals.
JOHN: And --
DAVID: In the judgment --
JOHN: -- how long is it going to take for
Christ to make me perfect then?
DAVID: Well, you're going to see by learning
the judgment. When you come up hither -- l
JOHN: And I have to wait for the seventh
seal, right, to be opened, don't I?
DAVID: Actually just the fifth seal to be
fulfilled.
JOHN: The fifth? The fifth seal has not
been fulfilled?
DAVID: not totally.
JOHN: Why?
DAVID: Because you're lack of knowledge of
Deuteronomy and the prophecies. Don't worry. It will
be soon. It will be soon, so just let's learn what it
is totally. Q .
l JOHN: Well, you told me it was only going to
be several days, huh?
DAVID: John?
,-
x
/
s12
JOHN: What?
DAVID: If you would listen to what the
prophets have stated, you would get the light on the
subject and then you would know all the answers.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: If you ask me, ask me point blank
direct, then you're asking me to answer you contrary to
what God has told me to answer you. I'm just showing
you --
JOHN: Well, what has he told you to answer
me?
DAVID: I just showed you out of the book.
See?
JOHN: Hey --
DAVID: If you don't --
JOHN: -- I am one of those. You know,
blessed are those who put their trust in the Lord?
DAVID: 'Ihat's okay.
JOHN: Huh?
_ DAVID: That's Psalms 2. Now, that's Psalms
2. Now, if -- okay. _ _
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID: We got you hooked on that. Let's see
how big your nose grows now. All right?
JOHN: Mine growing?
DAVID: Exactly. You said you put your trust
13
in the Lord. All right. Let's see how we do this.
JOHN: Don't you?
DAVID: Oh, I know. I trust myself. Now,
let's go.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: Nor sinners in the congregation of
righteous. For the Lord knoweth the way of the
righteous. Now, in the judgment what way is the
righteous? The seven seals which is a revelation of
Christ. But the way of the ungodly shall perish. Now,
when Christ comes and brings his book, right 4-
JOHN: Yes.
DAVID: -- why do the heathen rage and the
people imagine a vain thing? We know that in the seals
is the thoughts of God. But those who will not receive
these thoughts will not receive the one who brings
these thoughts, right? The kings of the earth set
themselves and the rulers take counsel together against
the Lord and against his anointed. Now, we know Christ
is the anointed one, right?
JOHN: I'm listening.
DAVID: I hear you keep putting the thing
down and turning it back on. That's all right.
JOHN: No. I've got a, a sinus problem here.
DAVID: Well, blow your nose.
JOHN: Well, I'd rather not blow it when I'm
14
talking to someone on the phone.
DAVID: Okay. Now -- so these people are
taking counsel together, aren't they?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And it's not according to God's will,
is it? Saying let us break their bands asunder and
cast away their cords from us. Do you think when the
anointed one brings the knowledge of the seals they
will respect this man? Do you think they will give an
ear to understand this man? This man were contrary to
their plans. His ways will be contrary to their ways
and they will rage. But he that sits in the heavens,
the one who really makes the difference, the father who
sits on the throne, shall laugh. The Lord shall have
them, the heathen, in derision. They're confused,
aren't they? They just don't understand this anointed
one, do they? They don't understand his seals. They
don't want to hear it. They don't want to know it.
They want to get rid of it. They don't want to be
committed to it. They don't want to be bound by the
truth that he tries to reveal, do they? Then shall he,
that is the father, speak unto them in his wrath.
That's the sixth seal. And vex them in his sore
displeasure. Rah. You know, he's going to whup them,
isn't he? Even though they don't want this person,
although he's really a nice guy if you ever got to meet
O O
15
him. God says to them yet -- although the kings don't
want him, yet have I set my king, which is the lamb,
upon my holy hill of Zion. He's going to make it
there, isn't he? Who is this king? I will declare the
decree. I mean, there's only one decree. In heaven
who only is worthy. None but the lamb, right? Who
only is going to come with his reward? None other but
the lamb. I will declare the decree. The Lord has
said unto me thou art my son. This day have I begotten
thee. Can you imagine when Christ brings the seven
seals he'll be begotten again? Yeah. You know, Christ
is the fruit and offspring of them. You know Christ
can be born again and again and again and again?
Whatever it takes, right?
JOHN: Guess so.
DAVID: Ask of me, the father says, and I
will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance and
the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
The guy owns a lot of real estate, don't he? Do you
think they're just going to hand it over to him? If
they would, I would get it back. I really don't need
much property to be happy with. I don't like things.
I like people. Thou shall break them with a rod of
iron. Thou shall dash them to pieces like a potters
vessel. But to tell you the truth, John, you know how
I like my heathen? I like them in one piece. I like
my heathen to be16
the kind of heathen that want to learn
the truth, that want to learn what God's side of the
story is now. You've already lived the side of the
nations. You've already seen the side of the devil.
You've already seen Satan's kingdom. Now is the time
to learn about God's kingdom. Now --
JOHN: Well, for the last 21 days, other than
the people that are in there with you and a few you've
spoken to on the
this from you?
DAVID:
JOHN:
days besides the
DAVID:
is.
JOHN:
you here who are
DAVID:
John.
JOHN:
DAVID:telephone, who else are going to learn
Remember, I started in 1985.
No, no. I said during the last 21
people in there with you.
It's getting around. Believe me it
And the people who are listening to
going to learn.
'Okay. Now, now, be wise, therefore,
Well, you didn't answer me.
I'm telling you because you don't
understand what I'm saying. I'm saying everything is
going according to God's will. Now, stop trying to
step in the middle of God's way because of things you
don't understand. Listen and you'll understand more
and more and more. Now, here's where we're at right
17
now. We're trying to -- we're trying to say be wise
now, therefore, John. Be instructed ye judges of the
earth. You're asking us to come out to be judged,
right? Well, we are. We're ready. We're coming.
People just need to be confirmed a little bit. We're
coming to be judged by man, not just me, all -- we will
see. Be wise now, therefore, ye kings. Be instructed
ye judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear and
rejoice with trembling. Kiss the son least he be
angry, and I'm a hard guy to get angry. I mean, I am
really hard because, see, I put a lot of investment in
this. I mean, you know, I came into this world butt
naked.
JOHN: Didn't we all?
DAVID: It cost a lot to come into this world
butt naked.
JOHN: Well, we all did.
DAVID: No. You didn't pay anything to come
into this world butt naked.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: You didn't pay anything to come into
this world butt naked. _
JOHN: Well, how do you know?
DAVID: I do know.
JOHN: You don't know who I may have been
before.
a
18
DAVID: John, come on. Let's show some
respect. And you perish from the way when his wrath is
kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put
their trust in him. And, like you said, you trust in
the Lord, right? So you indiscernible! trying to
teach you seven seals, right? In Psalms 1 you want to
stand in the judgment, don't you? Sure you do.
JOHN: Absolutely.
DAVID: Well, Lord, how -- in Psalms 3 says,
Lord, how are they increased that trouble me then? I
mean, you understand Psalms 1. You understand Psalms
2. How come I got so many people that want to trouble
me? Many are they that rise up against me, John,
honestly. Many which be which say of my soul there is
no help for him in God. They don't even know who I am.
JOHN: How about the many that stand out here
with open arms?
DAVID: Well --
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: -- they know, they know that God is
my shield, my glory --
JOHN: Well then, there's absolutely no fear
in coming out and meeting those people;
DAVID: Absolutely not.
JOHN: None.
DAVID: I never had, I never had any.
19
JOHN: well, some people do, don't they?
DAVID: Why do you think we're confirming
them? But thou, oh Lord, art a shield for me, my glory
and the lifter up of my head. I mean, in the world I
have shame. In the world I have rebuke. In the world
people don't understand.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Where I come from my head is held up
high. I cried unto the Lord my voice and he heard me
out of his holy hill. He heard me beyond in heaven,
too. I laid me down and slept. I awaked for the Lord
sustained me. I will not be afraid of ten thousands of
people, John, that have set themselves against me round
about because my father's going to rise. Arise, oh
Lord. You know, he's sitting down, right? Arise, oh
Lord. Save me oh my God for thou has smitten all mine
enemies upon the cheek bone. Thou hast broken the
teeth of the ungodly. See, a lot of people are talking
about me right now, John, and they don't even know me.
And there's angels watching, hundreds of thousands of
angels.
JOHN: There -- you know, there may be a lot
of people talking unkindly about you --
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: -- because they don't know you.
DAVID: Exactly, and they shouldn't do that.
20
JOHN: And how are you going to change that?
DAVID: Well, God's going to.
JOHN: No. I didn't ask you what God was
going to do. I said how are you going to change it?
DAVID: You see, everyone's --
JOHN: As David how are you going to change
it?
DAVID: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have
already spoken --
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: -- what a Christian is supposed to
do.
JOHN: I know, but I said how is David going
to change these people's mind-set?
DAVID: If I was the most cruelest evil
person in the world, a true Christian whose heart has
not waxed cold would bow down on his knees and say God
have mercy on those poor people in there and God have
mercy on that poor man's soul because he's going to
hell. Have mercy on him. Soften his heart. Help him
to let those people go. And in the prayer of kindness
to even the most wicked person it will in God turn back
into their own bosom. That's the way it works in my
kingdom. We should cry even with a, a mass murderer is
killed because that man has a hard road to hoe than
God's judgment, don't he?
21
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: So salvation belongeth in the Lord.
Thy blessing is upon thy people. Now, hear me when I
call, oh God, of my righteousness. Now, let's see.
What's my righteousness? Let me see. My -- let's see.
God sits on the throne. That's right. God's got a
book in his hand. That's right. All of heaven has
been called together. That's right. This happened 33
years ago in 1959 right before the election when John
F. Kennedy was made President. Let's see here. What
took place? Now, let's see. I believe my father gave
me a book and I believe in Revelation 10 I come to
earth with my face as it were the sun, right, feet as
pillars of fire, clothed in a cloud. I'm a very
glorious being. But I think there are seven thunders
that say something about me being put into the flesh,
about me being born a certain way, a certain time,
having a certain kind of family, certain kind of
situations and circumstances, and I think it's in the
key of David in the prophets. I think the prophets
talk all about this incarnation of the son of man, but
that's all right because, you see, those who know will
know all about it. Anyway, it says here thou hast
enlarged me when I was in distress. In other words, as
a man I see a lot of things the way you see it. Now,
my physiological body can't go out here and stand in
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22
front of a tank without it rolling over me and
squishing my spirit out of me.
JOHN: No, but nobody expects you to either,
do we?
DAVID: Okay. And I'm not bulletproof.
You've already seen that, haven't you?
JOHN: Yep, I have.
DAVID: Okay. So --
JOHN: But I've been the guy knocking on the
door. l
DAVID: And Ilve been the guy knocking at
your door.
JOHN: And you said others didn't, but now we
did, huh?
DAVID: Hey, we're learning something, aren't
we?
JOHN: Nell, I think both sides are, don't
you?
DAVID: Exactly. Have mercy on me and hear
my prayer. Now, all you sons of men -- now, John, how
long will you turn my glory into shame? How long will
you love vanity and seek after leasing? Don't you know
that everything in this world belongs to Christ?
Remember Psalms 2? The heathen belong to him. The
ends of the earth belongs to him. Hey, they can't win.
I want them to win, though. I want them to win my way.
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Now, but know, John -- there's something you need to
know while you're turning my glory to shame and while
you're loving vanity and seeking after leasing.
Remember, Christ died for you to have your wife and
your kids and your little life that you've got today.
You know that. You love the Lord.
JOHN: He did it for all of us, didn't he?
DAVID: Exactly. He did it for everybody,
but know --
JOHN: Not just John.
DAVID: Huh?
JOHN: Not just John.
DAVID: I know, but John's important to John,
though. Isn't John important to John? '
JOHN: John should be important to David.
DAVID: Well, I love you, John. I'm doing
the best I can.
JOHN: Good.
DAVID: But you need to know that the Lord
hath set apart him that is godly for himself. Now, in
heaven who has God separated from all of the holies in
heaven? The lamb, right? The Lord will hear when I
call unto him, John. Yeah, that's right. You see,
when it gets time and I get angry, I'm going to call.
He's close by. Now, I'm not angry and I haven't
called yet. I told you that my God says, wait.
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Actually I asked for it. Stand in awe. Yeah, John,
stand in awe. Sin not. Commune with your own heart
upon your bed and be still. Offer the sacrifices of
righteousness. Let's see what that is. Let's don't
even think of sacrifice right now. Let's, let's
sacrifice one thing. Let's sacrifice our pride. Let's
just say now one thing, does God sit on the throne?
Yes. Must this be hereafter? Yes. Will all the
heaven be called together? Yes. Will he have a book
in his hand? Yeah. With these seals? Yes. Will
Indiscernible! the lamb? Yes. Who's going to come?
The lamb himself. What's he going to reveal? What's
going to be the subject? What's going to be ~- all
about?" What's the subject? Seven seals. Yes, yes,
yes, yes, yes. Now, if you say yes to all the above
questions, it's because you're honest. I don't want to
talk about your sins. I don't want to talk about - I
don't want you to confess to me your sins. I'm not
your priest. I just want to know if you can accept the
truth as it is revealed. Now, put your trust in the
Lord because there be many that say, who will show us
any good? I mean, they've gone to church. They've gone
and gotten jobs. Nothing is as good as you think it's
to be. The merchants, the great men of the earth, by
their sorcery they deceive many people. You never get
your money's worth. You never get what they say you're
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going to get. Hey, God knows all about that and I'm
not trying to give you a raw deal. Lord, lift thou up
the light of thy countenance upon us. When God pulls
back the heavens here and looks at you, John, you don't
want to run for fear, do you? No. You want to see a
smile on his face. Right? Thou hast put gladness in
my heart more than the time that their corn and wine
were increased. Have you ever been drunk before, John?
Did it feel good? Did you have a good time?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Hey, where I come from there's no
comparison. There's not a drug in this world that
gives the security and the peace and the joy and the
ecstasy of the beam of the very sun rays of God's
being. Everything is -- have you ever eaten an apple
before that was really ripe and good? Have you ever
had, have you ever had an orange that was really
freshly picked? Not the stupid ACB plastic food that
man's trying to dish out today for high prices, huh? I
will both lay me down in peace and sleep, for thou Lord
only maketh me to dwell in safety. See, I'm not afraid
to come out. I'm not -- look, I've walked the streets
of L.A. by myself at night. I've walked the streets of
New York. I've been all over this place. I've ridden,
I've ridden thousands of miles on a motorcycle, you
know. Everything is perfectly okay. But the sad thing
26
of it is -- you know, I know you don't want to, I know
you don't want to spend all night on this.
JOHN: I don't want to miss anything, though
DAVID: In Psalms 18 -- remember Sharon was
telling you Psalms 75?
her --
vinegarJOHN: I'll never forget.
DAVID: Now, I rebuked her for that.
JOHN: Seriously?
DAVID: I did.
JOHN: Did she --
DAVID: I did.
JOHN: Did she accept it?
DAVID: Well, yeah, because I explained to
JOHN: Or were they --
DAVID: -- you don't catch flies with
You catch them with honey.
JOHN: No. I think the thing that rebuked
her is when I said happy birthday, don't you?
for?DAVID: What would you say that for?
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: What would you say happy birthday
JOHN: Because it was her birthday.
DAVID: And she's getting older.
JOHN: She just didn't want to acknowledge
27
that. Women are that way, you know.
DAVID: Yeah. Well, they need to break out
of that because Sarah was quite old when she had her
last baby, wasn't she?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: Okay. Now, in Psalms 18, you know,
it keeps talking about me going to sleep in the Psalms,
right? See, I've asked, I've asked the negotiators
whether they were going to kill me or not and they keep
saying no, but they don't know what's going to happen.
They can only guess, right? Q
JOHN: No. They can tell you what we're
going to do and when they tell you no, that means no,
doesn't it?
DAVID: O-kee-doke. We will see whose word
will stand, yours or the fathers.
JOHN: Hey --
DAVID: Anyway. So in Psalms 18 it says I
will love thee, oh --
JOHN: Well, you said when you asked God if
you should wait --
DAVID: Right. -
JOHN: -- and you, and you asked for this.
DAVID: My people failed.
JOHN: What did you want to accomplish by
asking if you should wait?
DAVID:
you're learning a little bit of --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID:
JOHN: I'm sure.
DAVID: -- over several years.
JOHN:
long enough I guess have.
DAVID: Right. Some not so long
remember they have taken me over the coals
questioned me. They have indoctrinated me
they have done everything they can to find28
Wait a minute. Let me explain. What
-- my people have learned thoroughly
Well, those that have been in there
Now -- but
They have
They have,
hole in me
and they find none except right now, a bullet hole.
JOHN: Well, what made you ask God whether or
not you should wait?
DAVID:
you. H
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
You see, this is based upon many sins.
JOHN: But that's like saying a lawBecause I didn't want him to destroy
I didn't want him to destroy you.
Well, why do you think he would have?
Because of what you all have done.
enforcement officer did something in New York today and
someone else did something in Chicago today --
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DAVID: This is what's being --
JOHN: -- and someone did something some
place else.
DAVID: Let me explain, John.
JOHN: And then we try to peacefully resolve
it.
DAVID: John, let me explain. The world, if
it was judged by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John right now
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- just strictly off of that, and
what the apostles say that the conduct of the
Christians should be, John, there would be 1 out of
100,000 that would be saved in this world.
JOHN: That's a possibility, isn't it?
DAVID: I know it as a fact, but do you know
what's being offered instead? The subject of seven
seals, just the subject going around through the world
today. It's another halo of mercy. Someone says seven
what? Seven seals? What's that? Just the interest.
JOHN: And that's what the average citizen on
the street --
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: -- is saying.
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: And until you get an opportunity to
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come out --
DAVID: Exactly.
' JOHN: -- through your lawyer, through the
media, to explain --
DAVID: Through my father, through God,
through the powers that hold the stars and heavens and
the universe together:
JOHN: Well, the others will be ignorant,
won't they, until then?
DAVID: But the grace that goes over the
world just by that subject being introduced is like the
wind blowing the seeds off of a, a dandelion.
JOHN: Well, you know, the -- we both talked
about the laws of God and the laws of man and how we
have to respect both, don't we?
DAVID: Hey, when the laws of men --
JOHN: And the laws of man are going to
resolve this first and then the law of God will resolve
it, won't it?
DAVID: Yeah, but not as you think.
JOHN: Well, I don't know --
DAVID: Well, let's see what the word is.
JOHN: -- because you're saying as I think,
but you don't know how I think.
DAVID: Well, do you think Psalms 1, Psalms
2, Psalms 3, Psalms 4? I
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JOHN: Well, I can --- you can say do you
think the Bible.
H DAVID: Well, you can't because you don't
know all that yet.
JOHN: You know, you can say do I think the
book of Revelation, do I think all of the Psalms, do I
think Psalms 75, and I can go on and on and on.
DAVID: You have to say -- you had to say
well, my opinion is, so it is. Your opinion is that
the laws of man will resolve this.
JOHN: And the laws -- and the law of God
will eventually do likewise.
DAVID: I agree with you.
JOHN: You know?
DAVID: And for your sakes let's hope that
the law of God is postponed as far as possible so we
can get the truth first and not the exactions of it.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: Okay?
JOHN: You know -- fine.
DAVID: I mean, one good thing about the
judicial system of America is that a criminal is put in
a cell and he has a lot of time to think, don't he? He
gets to think. Now, there are guys who've gone to the
death, to the death cell and they said look, I did
wrong. I deserve this. Right?
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JOHN: Very few of them are ever executed.
DAVID: Well, the thing of it is is this. we
know that in the hand of God lies the destiny of every
soul.
JOHN: Not going to argue that with you,
David, am I?
DAVID: So we can be confident.
JOHN: Be a fool, wouldn't I?
DAVID: Okay. Now, so we see in Psalms 18, I
will love thee, oh Lord, my strength. The Lord is my
rock. Isn't he your rock? '
JOHN: You bet.
DAVID: And my fortress and my deliverer, my
God, my strength, in whom I will trust, my buckler and
the horn of my salvation. You know what a horn is,
don't you?
JOHN: I'm afraid to ask.
DAVID: Yeah. Well, I'm his son, you know,
in my high tower. You see, I see things in the future.
You know, I saw the ATF coming.
JOHN: That's what you said. k
DAVID: That's what I said. You don't know
if it's true or not, but --
JOHN: Did I, did I tell you you're a liar?
DAVID: No.
JOHN: NO.
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DAVID: Because you're smart enough to
reserve that, although it maybe seems strange. I will
call upon the Lord who is worthy to be praised. So
shall I be saved from my enemies. Well, I don't want
to call yet because I don't want to make enemies. I
want to see if some of these enemies can be reconciled
to me by understanding where I'm coming from. Now,
it's true the sorrows of death compassed me and the
floods of ungodly men made me afraid. I mean, you
can't talk to a man who's shooting bullets at you, can
you? I mean, all I could do -- Q
JOHN: dwell, you might be able to.
DAVID: No. That's --
JOHN: It depends what's between you and him.
DAVID: All I could do in my situatibn is
stand outside the front door there with my hand up
saying, you know, wait, get back.
JOHN: Hey, you know, I can't comment on what
happened on the 28th.
DAVID: There's women and children in here.
Let's talk about this.
JOHN: You can tell me. You were there. I
wasn't.
DAVID: Okay. So it's on tape, too, because
the two photographers, the two men, were right across
the road over there. Now -- but the sorrows of hell
34
compassed me about and the snares of death prevented
me. Okay. Now, that's terrible, isn't it? Remember
the carcass? In my distress - now, when it comes to
that snare of death, right, that's distressful, isn't
it? I can't give nobody any truth when I'm dead, can
I? In my distress I called to the Lord and cried into
my God, and he heard my voice out of his temple and my
cry came before him, even into his ears. Then what
happens? Remember the sixth seal? Suddenly the stars
darkened.
JOHN: I certainly do.
DAVID: Right? The heaven shakes and all the
mountains fall. Then the earth shook and what?
Trembled. The foundations also of the hills moved and
were shaken because he was wroth. So my father speaks
to my enemies in his wrath.
JOHN: Well, you know what a lot of the
general public believes, as the media has reported --
DAVID: Oh, yeah. I
JOHN: - is that God is giving you the word
after having told you to wait and now millions of
people are out here waiting to hear the answer from
you. _
DAVID: But I'm --
JOHN: But that's, that's what is being
printed.
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DAVID: I know and that's partly you all's
fault, too.
JOHN : Why?
DAVID: Why? Because you're the ones that
tried to speak in my behalf and the old hand and shake
theory always twists things up to some degree.
JOHN: Well, that's not necessarily true.
DAVID: But it is in this case. So then he
went up a --
JOHN: However --
DAVID: However.
JOHN: -- you can resolve that, can't you?
DAVID: Yes, by trying to tell you to give me
a line, but we can't do that until I come out, so --
JOHN: Patience is a virtue, right?
DAVID: Patience is a virtue for both of us.
JOHN: Yeah, but I just hate to go back, back
home and not be here when it happens.
DAVID: There went up a smoke out of his
nostrils and fire out of his mouth devoured. Coals
were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also and came
down and darkness was under his feet. He rode upon a
cherub. Have you ever heard of a cherub?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Okay. And did fly. Yea, he did fly
upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness his
Q36
secret place. His pavilion round about him were dark
waters and thick clouds of the skies. Just like in
heaven, -- so you know every time that you see it rain
and thunder around here, you're going to say well,
that's just another rain, another thunder. You made a
statement earlier about did you think it was a sign
from God? Wait a minute.
JOHN: Could be.
DAVID: Ecclesiastes says he's going to
return after the rain. At the brightness that was
before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and
coals of fire. The Lord also thundered in the heavens.
Remember the seven thunders? And the highest gave his
voice. Now, how did he talk to my enemies? They
wouldn't listen to me. They wouldn't listen to the
book. So they have to listen to him, cast stones and
coals of fire, and they will understand. Yea, he sent
out his arrows and scattered them and he shot out
lightnings and discomfited them. You know, every day
and every night they'd go back to their rooms. They'd
sit back and talk and use vain words and they used
words that are not acceptable to God. Psalms 3 says
God would have to smite their teeth out. Then the
channels of the waters were seen and the foundations of
the world were discovered at thy rebuke. I mean, this
earthquake is like none you've ever, ever experienced.
37
Oh, Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
He sent from above. 'He took me and drew me out of many
waters. He delivered me from my strong enemy and from
them which hated me. Why? For they were too strong
for me, John. And they prevented me in the day of my
calamity. Why are they going to prevent me? Well, you
promised I'm going to be able to continue to teach and
I hold you to that word. I hold you fully responsible.
God heard it. It's in his book. You've got a
recording on me. We've got one on you. But the Lord
was my stay. He brought me forth also into a large
place, right back to where I came from. Remember the
sea of glass?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: He delivered me because he delighted
in me. The Lord rewarded me according to my
righteousness. According to the cleanness of my hands
hath he recompensed me for I have kept the ways of the
Lord. Now, you don't know these seals yet. And have
not wickedly departed from my God for all his judgments
were before me and I did not put away his statutes from
me. I was also upright beiore him and I kept myself
from mine iniquity. Therefore, hath the Lord
recompensed me according to my righteousness, according
to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight. He gave
me a book. He showed it to me. I promised to do it.
38
I've come. I've done it. Now, with the merciful --
God is allowing people to show me mercy because at
first they think I'm a fool. They think I'm crazy.
With the merciful thou wilt show thyself merciful.
With an upright man thou wilt show thyself upright.
Somebody's coming and says all right, Dave, straight
across the table, I don't care who you say you are.
Now, you say you can show the seven seals. All right.
Straight up and across the table, you know, God sits on
the throne. That's right. God gave the book to the
lamb. That's right. Now, okay, only the lamb can
reveal the seven seals. Now, what are these seven
seals? Now, show me. Can you or can you not? Okay.
You're the lamb, then. Now, what about it. That's of
brightness. Awith the pure thou wilt show thyself pure
and with the froward indiscernible!. Every man is
going to be treated the way he treats this subject.
For thou wilt save the afflicted people. And we're
being afflicted. But will bring down high looks for
thou wilt light my candle. Remember the seven candles
of Revelation which are the seven eyes of the lamb?
The Lord, my God, will enlighten my darkness for by
thee I have run through a troop. Remember Joel? I'm
going to keep in front of that army, aren't I?
Strongest of his word, right? And by my God have I
leaped over a wall. Remember Joel used to come up on
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the wall. They destroy the cities, don't they? As for
God, his way is perfect. The word of the Lord -- those
seven seals -- is tried. You want to be a part of my
army, John? You want to be a mighty man? In your own
strength, never, but in the word of God, all the
prophets will be there. Daniel will be there. All
will be raised to be a part of this group. He's a
buckler to all those that trust in him. You know, a
buckler is a guy who puts on your armor. For who is
God save the Lord? who is a rock save our God? It is
God that girdeth me with strength and maketh my way
perfect. He makes my teet like hinds' feet and setteth
me upon my high places. Remember -- all the prophets?
Indiscernible! bring you good tidings? He teacheth my
hands to war so that a bow of steel is brokeniin my
arms. Thou hath also given me the shield of thy
salvation. Hey, when God's behind you, who can hurt
you, right? And thy right hand, which is a book, hath
holden my up. Thy gentleness hath made me great. Thou
has enlarged my steps under me that my feet do not
slip. I have pursued mine enemies and overtaken them.
Neither did I turn again until they were consumed.
Remember Psalms 2, kiss the son less he be angry,
right? I have wounded them that they were not able to
rise. What happens to the horns of the wicked? '
JOHN: They are cut off.
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DAVID: Right. They are fallen under my feet
for thou has girded me with strength unto the battle.
In my own strength I couldn't. As a man I could not do
anything, John, no more than you could do. But the
father gives a warning so that -- you know, the big
boys don't need to push the little boys because God
might strengthen the little boys to push the big boys
down. Thou hast subdued under me those that rose up
against me.
JOHN: What if the big boys just sit out
there and be patient? i
DAVID: I love you like everything because
you're respecting us. Even though you may think we're
ignorant and you make think we're crazy, at least
you're having mercy on people that are crazy and
ignorant and God looks at that. If God so allowed the
world to fall into the hands of the world, there's
always going to be the oppressed and the oppressor,
right?
JOHN: Well, then God should look at this as
a positive sign then, shouldn't he?
DAVID: Well, that's what I've been doing all
along. Give me a chance to work with these guys.
That's all I've asked of my father. Please. Like Jim.
I love Jim. This is a job to you all but, you know,
eventually you might find that it's more than just a
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job.
JOHN: Well, most of us do.
DAVID: Okay. Because it says thou hast
given me the necks of mine enemies. I don't want to
break people's necks. That I might destroy them that
hate me. They cried but there was none to save them,
even unto the Lord, but he answered them not. You know
who ends up destroying them? The one who came to save
them, Christ, the one who loved them more than they
ever knew. Then did I beat them small as the dust
before the wind. I did cast them out as the dirt in
the streets. Thou hast delivered me from the strivings
of the people. Thou hast made me the head of the
heathen. Now, when all the rest of the world who don't
really know what's going on see this, they're going to
go wow, what's happening? Remember the nations mourn?
But not everybody's going to be wiped out.
JOHN: Well, when you're working with us,
which I believe you're doing, you proved it again last
night, didn't you, that you're working with us?
DAVID: Yes, I'm working with my people for
your sake.
JOHN: Sure. What do you expect of us?
DAVID: Well, the people whom I have not
known shall serve me. You keep asking me the question
of well, if you'll come out --
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No, no, no. I'm not saying that. I
said what are you expecting of us?
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
need.
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
hands and stuff.
know, expect you
to deal with you
JOHN:Oh, just to listen.
Yeah.
To give us the little time that we
Yeah.
Hey, we're working this out.
I know.
We're not going -- I'm into your
I just really -- I would just, you
to deal with me as you would wish me
if you were in the situation.
And don't you think, and don't you
think that's going to happen?
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
individual. U
JOHN:
every individual
DAVID:
JOHN:In your case, yes --
You bet.
-- but not in the case of every
It's going to happen in the case of
that's there with you and you.
Well, what I'm saying is --
You're going to be given all the
respect and the rights and privileges of every other
individual that has preceded you out of there, and I
hope you believe that.
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DAVID: I believe that because, as I said
before, I am not afraid what man can do to me.
A JOHN: No, but you've got a lot of other
people in there with you --
DAVID: That. are.
JOHN: -- that are afraid.
DAVID: And we're resolving this now.
JOHN: And I know you are.
DAVID: -- them in the knowledge of God,
answering the individual questions.
JOHN: And that's not easy, is it?
DAVID: It's easy for me to say, but not easy
for their doubtful heart --
JOHN: To accept .
DAVID: -- to believe. Yes.
4 JOHN: That's right because -5 I mean, we can
look at Rita as an excellent example, right?
DAVID: Right.
JOHN: I mean, she's been an individual that
you've talked to, I'm sure, for several days. I mean,
in my own mind I believe you have in several days and
again you talked to Annetta probably for a much shorter
period of time.
DAVID: Annetta only tonight.
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID: Just recently.
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JOHN: That's right. Yet look what you
accomplished in a short period of time and she was
serving two purposes, I realize that. She was there to
help Vicki, wasn't she?
DAVID: To help Vicki and plus she's been
here longer than Rita and she's older, more settled.
Her life has been more fulfilled.
JOHN: You mean Anita sic! has?
DAVID: As Anita -- Annetta, Annetta.
JOHN: Yeah, Annetta. I'm sorry.
DAVID: You know. And so, therefore, you
know, when I asked of the two nurses, you know --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: I explained to them again my account
and I told them what is up and I began to relate --
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: -- to them all that they've already
learned and I said now, look, we have done a terrible
thing here, you know, what's happened amongst us.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And I says now, this is what has to
be done now because -- the thing that happened shows
that again I failed. I always fail to respect that no
matter how plain I make a testament --
JOHN: Well, it's very difficult for these
people to comprehend these acts, isn't it?
In
DAVID: No, no, no. They comprehend, but
like the disciples, how many times have they told I
must go to Jerusalem where I'll be given to the hands
of --
End of Tape #147!.
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T/W/5 /W
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE I148
March 21, 1993
2:37 a.m. - 3:20 a.m.
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Tape 148!
DAVID: -- of having a gift of the spirit to
aid and help others. Finally, when the Pentecost
came --
JOHN: Yet you said one of the main reasons
those people are reluctant to leave there is not just
your teachings, but it's the unknown.
DAVID: It's the fact know that what they
have seen witnessed thus far is a double standard of
communication.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: The night we began to lose --
JOHN: -- then maybe they're not totally
aware of our dialogue, and I don't mean your --
DAVID: They --
JOHN: -- your dialogue and my dialogue, I ~
mean everyone that's talked to you's dialogue since the
first. H
DAVID: They played --
J0HN:J Delete the 28th.
DAVID: They played on, they played -- they
know I don't lie, all right? They played --
JOHN: Well, I hope
they --
DAVID: -- they played --
JOHN: -- feel the same way about the people
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that have been talking to you on the phone.
DAVID: Because you have lied.
JOHN: N0.
DAVID: Now look, John --
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID: -- from the first negotiations I
wasn't the only one who talked with Jim. ,
JOHN: I'm sure you weren't.
DAVID: Steve talked to him, Judy talked to
him, other people talked to him.
JOHN: Sure, sure. A
DAVID: Cutting off with the lights, moving
the tanks close only aggravated them. I had to work --
and you should know because of the bugs - I had to
work in ways and means to deal with the people because
they were ready to fight. Look, if my kingdom was of
this world, my servants would fight.
JOHN: I'm sure they were, and I'm sure --
DAVID: But --
JOHN: -- it was a very difficult thing for
you to -- .
DAVID: Look, look, look, I can't --
JOHN: -- change that.
DAVID: - look, look, I cannot take a people
who have violated the principles of God and use them on
my side to fight against the people who have violated
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the principles ot God. It is not in the justice of
heaven for one people who are under transgression to
have the authority and privilege to destroy another
people mule} § ?i?h&§*"§u't ihat happens is -
Jbmi Remember, God is forgiving, too, isn't2 92
_,
7 DAVID: - what happens is, is that my people
that have been chosen, that have been elected to know
the truth, for them to fall tosuch base degriments
sic! as what's taking place. _
JOHN: Um-hum
DAVID: It justifies your people. You people
are thoroughly ignorint position, thoroughly
ignorant ot ny doctrine, oroughly ignorant or what
these people have been blessed to receive.
' JOHN: Ua-hum.
DAVID: God is not a respecter of persons.
It's not like we're on this side and you're on that
side, no. The truth --
JOHN: God is forgiving though isn't he?
DAVID: God is forgiving with chaetieenents
,._.- Q3 ' ~01
DAVID: -these people are to stand alone
without ne, 1': nojlenger to be e titty bottle to them.
I've given then one last counseling pointing them to1».-
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the rock whereby they are hewned. They have first of
all - most of these people all came here to fight with
me. In the beginning they came in pride, they came in
arrogancy, they came to take ahold of the challenge.
They had heard of a seal, they had heard of a man and
they came to see and most of them came to fight. They
thought they knew God, they thought they knew his
truth. And as they picked me and as they tried to take
me apart, they found out that my questions were keener
than theirs. They found out my perceptions - they
would start at a verse and they were like ah, ah and
I would finish it. They would start a text or
somewhere in ¥ we're talking about guys who's got
master's degrees in theology. I helped them develop
their arguments and then I showed them by their own
eyes that their foundation was not according to the
testament of the Scriptures. After a while they began
to learn to shut their mouths and to listen and to see.
And they have rejoiced in such a harmonious picture
that God has painted by his providential hand.
JOHN: when you mention that you've given
them a last counseling, how, how did they accept that?
I'm sure it must have been difficult.
DAVID: They're coming to the birth.
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: The flesh is weak. How did the
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disciplines 2,000 years ago accept it? Now it comes to
this: with me not around who's going to answer their
questions? Hicah says --
JOHN: It's going to be very difficult for
many of them isn't it?
DAVID: Exactly. Now, Micah states, and this
is what I'm showing them, I'm showing them Micah, you
know indiscernible!.
JOHN: And that's when they have to have
probably stronger faith than they ever had before.
DAVID: Exactly, and what I've been showing
them, the Word.
JOHN: But, but the one thing that, the one
thing that I've told you and that I have not lied to
you one bit, and you tell me if I'm wrong when I said
that I have limited control of what's going on out here
but I have pretty complete control if somebody wants to
indicate a willingness and a desire to leave as to
their safety, their welfare and how it will happen.
DAVID: You are correct on that.
JOHN: You know? And, and I'm not lying to
you. -
DAVID:. I believe you.
JOHN: You know? And I also understand that
those people in there as you rightly said don't know
which way to turn and that's why it's, it's got to come
from your7
lips.
DAVID: It comes from my lips as I hold the
Bible in front of them and I show them this is that
passage, this is the book now.
isn't it?
their own
what they
that walkJOHN: You bet, and that's where it's found
DAVID: So, this is where I leave them on
because as I must go, they can only retain
have received. God is not an idol and those
in the flesh are not the idols of God. Look
at me, John. Do you see my picture? Do you think this1
body is honorable? Do you think this body is glorious?
No. This
loon if Ibody desires no respect. This body --
JOHN: No, I look at it as, as a human body.
DAVID: A human body, a man.
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Behold the --
JOHN: You would say I was crazier than a
told you otherwise wouldn't you?
DAVID: Well, you would definitely be
speaking a forked tongue --
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID: - and I would not receive it, just
like people indiscernible!. t
you?JOHN: You wouldn't respect me either would
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DAVID: Exactly. You can't draw near me --
I JOHN: Well, I don't know if you do anyhow,
but --
DAVID: -- you can't draw near me with your
mouth and show much love and yet your heart go out to
your indiscernible!.
JOHN: NO.
DAVID: You got to be filled with knowledge
indiscernible!. _
JOHN: Hey, I've watch those videos of those
people on television and the people that have come out
here, there's absolutely no question in my mind that it
takes a lot -- a lot -- of encouragement from you and
Steven and whomever to let them know that the Bible
will be their answer and that -- you know, they are
going to be lost people coming out of there. People
have been with you, respected you, listened to your
teachings for years and all of a sudden if they step
out of there what's going to await them? What will
they have? who will they listen to? who will they
follow? And I understand that.that is a difficult,
difficult task for you. -
DAVID: Well, I would say this --
JOHN: And is -- am I coming from the right
direction?
DAVID: Wrong.
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JOHN: I'm wrong?
DAVID: Let me explain.
DAVID: Nell, let me explain. when those who
claim to be guides such as your priest --
JOHN: Claim to be what?
DAVID: Guides. Your priest is your guide.
JOHN: Okay. All right.92
JOHN: Sorry about that.
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DAVID: Your counselor.
JOHN: Right.
DAVID: He's the one that shows you the ways
of God. when it comes down to the weakest member,
those who have professed to be counselors will find it
an impossibility to stand on a scriptural foundation
and to discuss doctrine with these people. These
people can eat then alive. But just the ability to
know Scripture and the ability to know the foundation
of the prophets in on ways perfects the experience.
The prophets wrote under bondage, they wrote in prison
DAVID: they wrote under death.
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: And what they wrote --
JOHN: And many became martyrs.
DAVID: That's what I'm saying.
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JOHN: Sure. '
DAVID: So, just because we watch a movie of
Bruce Lee does not mean that we're Bruce Lee. We may
watch his moves and we may watch all of his stamina, we
may sit there watching a football game and jump and
kick our leg and go get am, get em! we may have the
adrenalin flow, right? But when it comes right down to
it we may not be able to get out there and play
football like them guys.
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Okay." So, when it comes time for the
perfecting of the saints, if the people of God under
the event - you know, when everything was going
around, you know --
JOHN: Um-hum. Y
DAVID: -- I'm walking around here like, you
know, no problem, you know? People were hitting the
floor --
JOHN: The, the biggest --
DAVID: - dodging, jumping, I'm walking
around, no problem. ~
JOHN: The biggest problem, the biggest
question I guess that, that goes unanswered into the
people that all of us have to answer to - not you, all
of us here that you're talking to - is the reluctance
on the part of people to leave in there. And do you
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understand that and, and do you accept what I'm saying
to you?
I DAVID: Oh, exactly.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: I can understand it very clearly
indiscernible!.
JOHN: Okay, and it's because they do not
understand --
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: -- what you're trying to say. Now,
you tell me how I can explain that to them why there's
that reluctance in the simplest layman's terms.
Because that's what - that's the confrontation that
John-1 and John-2 have that's going to get them sent on
home in short order and they don't want to go@home.
They want to try and successfully deal with you and
with everyone in there. And the --
DAVID: You know --
JOHN: -- difficulty we have is to get people
to understand the reluctance of people to leave there.
DAVID: The ones that are afraid of the
bullets coming from our direction.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: That's what they understand. You
know, they're behind steel, we understand that.
' JOHN: I'm talking of the people I'm dealing
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with right here which is miles away from you are.
DAVID: Washington?
JOHN: No, no, no. I mean I'm saying I'm
five or -- say I'm five or --
DAVID: Okay indiscernible!.
JOHN: -- say I'm five or six miles away from
where you are.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: The people that making the decisions.
DAVID: John? In your personal experience
what I've been sharing with you from Scripture --
JOHN: Okay. A
DAVID: -- is it palatable?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Is there a picture being drawn?
JOHN: Absolutely.
DAVID: Okay. Now, these people --
JOHN: But I have to make these people
comprehend.
DAVID: Okay. Now --
JOHN: The reluctance; that's the only thing
I have to make them comprehend is the reluctance
because they look at tangible items.
DAVID: Tangible items --
JOHN: Do you -- I mean, do you understand
where I'm coming from?
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DAVID: Exactly. In other words --
JOHN: They're looking at numbers, and
they're -- well, I won't say they're looking at one
person today and two people tomorrow and three people
the next. They're looking at what is it going to take
to get all of these people out of there and --
DAVID: Well them I said it's going to take
you. Me and you talking, me and John talking.
JOHN:92 And that's exactly what we've told
them.
DAVID: And that's what I'm saying.
JOHN: You know, and that's exactly what we
told them, but they look for tangible things. Now,
today they said well, this is very -- been very
positive.
DAVID: Good, and it --
JOHN: You know?
DAVID: -- will continue.
JOHN: And but they're saying at the same --
and I'm trying to be as candid with you as I can,
believe me, because as much as I'd love to go home and
see my family, I want to -- I really want to see this
thing work out and I hope you believe me when I'm
telling you that. And what they're looking at is, you
know, two people a day we can go on for a year, what is
it going to --
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DAVID: No, no.
JOHN: -- what is it --
DAVID: We're not, we're not --
JOHN: Yeah, but that's what they're saying,
you know? That's the impression they have.
DAVID: Okay. Let me, let me, let me give
this. Okay. John, I am not --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- going to force anybody out of this
building.
JOHN: I know that. -
DAVID: Now, let me, let me indiscernible!.
JOHN: You've told me that before.
DAVID: Be, be quiet now, please, let me say
this very clearly. I may of myself come out before
others will.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Christ had a Judas.
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID: Judas hung himself.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: I am not exonerated nor am I honored
by the rebellion of those who name my name. David
Koresh, yes, my name is Vernon Howell according to the
flesh, but Jacob --
JOHN: which has been changed.
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DAVID: Wait a minute. Jacob's name was
changed to Israel --
- JOHN: Right.
DAVID: Indiscernible! was changed to
Israel, deceiver to prince. Abram was changed to
Abraham, okay? so all through the scriptures we see
that God changed the names of men.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: As they were molded from the flesh
into God's purposes, God gave them another identity.
Likewise, my mother and father call me Vernon Wayne
Howell, my father in heaven testified and called me
David Koresh. Now, that name Koresh, Koresh, means
something, but not to those who are ignorant of the
seals. And I tell them that my - that name Koresh
means nothing except we be obedient to the wisdom of
God. Revelation 19 says that he that's on the white
horse has a name that no man knows, nobody can
counterfeit it, nobody can duplicate it. It says he
has a garment dipped in blood and his name is the word
of God. And that's where it comes down to a test.
Someone says, yeah, I believe in David Koresh, he's the
Messiah. Wait a minute. That's cheap. when I have to
stand here, or actually lay here, and I say look,
everything I've shown you you know, but now it's time
to do this and I start opening up the complete picture
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of the fall of Assyria, the fall of Babylon, the
mystery of what's happening and I start saying now it's
time for you to get off the titty, commit the doctrine
to your heart knowing your looking to the throne, God's
in control, knowing that prophet and priest and men of
God since the foundation of the world were tested in
the fires of affliction - Isaiah 48 all through it
talks about this - now it's time for you to get away
from my titty, to go out there and to see God's
deliverance. And when they start going ugh, uhg, ugh,
ugh, I go now, look at you, look at you, what do you
believe? Here they are out there calling me a cult
leader and here you are right in my face proving it. I
mean, what have I done for you, nothing. What have you
done for yourself? It's your responsibility to avail
yourself of this truth. Hey, look at me, I'm nothing.
I tell them, I say, look, so, so I've got a, I've got a
Harley, so I've got a Camaro that I built, so I, so
I've got this - these things are over. I told you for
years that the things of this world are only for this
world. These things are over. I'm going to have me a
place right down there downtown or somewhere in some
other state, I'm going to have me a room with a steel
bed and have plenty of time to finish my work in my
spirit or on paper or on tape or whatever God allots to
me.
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JOHN: You know that --
DAVID: And here you are --
JOHN: -- you know that and I know that don't
we?
DAVID: And so here we are --
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: -- under the, the thing of telling
man -- now it's come to the birth. See, when it
says -- to bring forth the Daughter of Zion? It's an
experience of people having to say to themselves wait a
minute, wait a minute, what is truth? And I go, look
at you, look how blind you are. Here you are willing
to die indiscernible!.
JOHN: But the bottom line is that what you
just said was totally true, that, that you are going to
come out of there and it's, and it's just a matter of
when. You know that and I know that don't we?
DAVID: I'm going --
JOHN: Because you told me that.
DAVID: Because it's also written.
JOHN: And you told me, you told me last
night it, it's almost over, it's going to be just a few
days, you know, it could be tomorrow and it's just a
matter of time and that you're dealing with a lot of
people in there trying to get them to understand some
readings that will help them when they come out of
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there. And I think you've been very successful in
doing that. But as I said to you, the difficulty that
John has, that Henry had, that Mike had -- that
everybody that's talked to you including myself has --
is the people that we have to talk to and the people
that they have to answer to are looking for a tangible
answer. And how do I, how do I give them --
DAVID: John, it's in your.power --
JOHN: -- that answer without saying damned
if I know?
DAVID: John, that's up to you.
JOHN: I know, I know. And that's the bottom
line isn't it? i
DAVID: It's the bottom line?
JOHN: But that's very difficult for me.
DAVID: Well, I'm sorry --
JOHN: I don't like, I don't --
DAVID: -- I'm sorry, you got the ball and --
you got the football, run with it.
JOHN: You know, I don't like to, I don't
like to give that kind of an answer because it's not
fair. ,
DAVID: 1John, if you give that answer then
everything I've said to you tonight means nothing.
JOHN: But, what you say to me means
something. I hope you think it means something.
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DAVID: Well, run with it then. Don't be a
pilot. Don't sell your soul for the bureaucracy.
JOHN: Well, like I'm telling you, I want to
see this thing through.
DAVID: Okay. Sit tight.
JOHN: I am. Are we going to have a good
morning tomorrow morning -- this morning?
DAVID: Every day is a good morning, John.
JOHN: Hey. Are we going to have a good
morning with Rita and some others, hopefully?
DAVID: Well, John, I'm giving you studies
aren't I? John, listen --
JOHN: Yeah, your nose is growing again, too,
isn't it?
DAVID: Listen, listen --
JOHN: Huh?
DAVID: Stop pushing me --
JOHN: That's the last thing in the world I
want to do.
DAVID: -- because when you push -- when,
when --
JOHN: But what I wanted to do is explain --
DAVID: Okay, look --
JOHN: -- to you the situation that --
DAVID: -- if they want to push they can
push. Remember what I've shown you in Scripture,
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they're going to bring their own judgment upon --
JOHN: Well, there's just a lot of losers if
that happens isn't there? V
DAVID: They say, they say --
JOHN: We can all be winners.
DAVID: We can if we're wise. Be wise
indiscernible!. _
JOHN: You can be a winner and we can be a
winner, and everybody --
DAVID: I am the winner.
JOHN: - in there can be a winner.>
DAVID: I am the winner. I want you to win
with me.
JOHN: Well, if, if somebody does something
precipitously there are going to be winners and there
are going to be losers.
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: And that's not necessary is it?
DAVID: It doesn't need to be.
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID: No one on this side is going to
endanger anyone on your side.
JOHN: I trust you when you say that.
DAVID: Now, the people are committed to God
and their transgression is against God. Now, they are
shaken and they need to be confirmed that God in his
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plan is going to guarantee them according to his
promises.
' JOHN: I truly believe what you're saying.
DAVID: Now, so --
JOHN: And you got a tough job -- a tough row
to hoe, don't you? You do, don't you?
DAVID: John, if, if, if these people are
anything like you are you know it's tough. Laughter!
JOHN: Hey, I mean, I imagine they're,
they're totally --
DAVID: My nose just got smaller didn't it?
JOHN: -- they're totally shaken, many of
them.
DAVID: They don't want to go out there.
JOHN: Because they're scared to death --
DAVID: Because they are indiscernible!
JOHN: -- and they'll be alone.
DAVID: -- to the birth and now they find out
that, you know, God does not respect worship in the
flesh. Christ 2,000 years ago, do you think he wanted
people to worship him?
JOHN: He wanted to --
DAVID: Indiscernible!
JOHN: -- he wanted people to listen to him.
DAVID: Exactly.
JOHN: Isn't that the -- isn't that all he
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wanted?
DAVID: That's all we want, isn't it? Isn't
that all we want?
JOHN: You bet.
DAVID: And they said indiscernible! call no
man good on earth for only one is good, your father in
heaven. Just like me, I'm always pointing people up.
Because if you look at me in the flesh, look, I ain't
nothing to look at, you know?
JOHN: You bet.
DAVID: Now, I've got a lot of people that
are as connected to me as your wife or your children
are connected to you. And if you had to go off to war
then they would be hugging onto you and they'd be
crying, they'd be saying, why daddy, why daddy, right?
JOHN: Well, many of us have. -
DAVID: Okay.. So, it's time --
JOHN: Wasn't necessarily a popular thing
either. .
DAVID: No, but because certain men are
arbitrary and use force instead of wisdom, it's
something we have to come to the fact it's a reality in
the world. Okay. So like I said before, these things
that I'm sharing with you are determined. My heart's
desire is that this nation and this dispensation of
time breaks the lock of destiny. There's some good
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things in this book. Psalm 45, there are some terrible
things. So that's why in Psalm indiscernible! it says
there's a cup in the Lord's right hand. The mixture
thereof is red and he poureth out of the same. But the
dregs of the cup, the wicked shall wring them out, in
other words no moisture at all, and shall drink them.
All the horns of the wicked will be cut off. There are
some terrible things in these prophesies against the
wicked. So when it says there thou has delivered me
from the indiscernible! of the people, thou hast made
me the head of the heathen, a people whom I've not
known shall serve me. As soon as they hear of me they
shall obey me. So, you know --
JOHN: Hey, you, you can be rest assured that
neither John-1, -2, -3 or anybody else that's talking
to you wants to put any pressure on you.
DAVID: Well --
JOHN: And we're not trying to get you to say
hey, John, because you're talking to me tonight and
you're trying to, to, you know, get me to make a
commitment to what's to happen tomorrow morning. I
don't know what's going to happen tomorrow morning,
maybe you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow
morning. I, I'd just like to be in a position to be
able to tell the people I answer to that I think we've
had very productive dialogue all day yesterday, early
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this morning, and the dialogue will continue and
positive things will happen. And I think that that's
the truth isn't it?
DAVID: That's the truth --
JOHN: You know --
DAVID: -- especially when you commit
yourself -- just you, I'm talking just to you --
JOHN: I hear you.
DAVID: - to the rock. That's why it says
the Lord liveth and blessed be my rock.
JOHN: Hey -- I, ~
DAVID: Let the God of my salvation be
exalted. Hey, let God win and you will win.
JOHN: He will, won't he?
DAVID: Because it is God that has
indiscernible! me. He has as subdued the people under
me.
JOHN: um-hum.
DAVID: He has delivered me from mine
enemies, yea, he will lift me up above those that rise
up against me.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: He has delivered me from the violent
man. I --
JOHN: I just hope you understand how
difficult it is for, for us that are talking to you to
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try and convince others. Maybe you do understand and
maybe you don't.
DAVID: Play the tapes to them.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: They probably don't want to hear no
Gospel, do they.
JOHN: I don't think so. I mean, I'm being
very candid with you.
DAVID: Well, everyone's going to learn is
eventually whether they like it or not.
JOHN: You know, I, I don't think they, they
do. To be very candid with you, they're looking for
substantive issues, they're looking at tangible items.
DAVID: They'd better fear God
indiscernible!.
JOHN: Well, they all fear God.
DAVID: No, no, not really. They fear --
JOHN: They do.
DAVID: No, no, no, no, you can't be saying
that. You can't talk both sides of the mouth, John.
JOHN: I'm not. Donft you think I fear God?
DAVID: You can't say --
JOHN: Do you think I fear God?
DAVID: Well, I'm saying that at least you're
learning more about him.
JOHN: Indiscernible! you either say you
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think I do or you don't think I do.
DAVID: Well, you really don't know how to
yet.
JOH: I'm a God-fearing man. Huh?
DAVID: You really don't know how to. You
fear what you know of God, that's good. But I'd fear
those Psalms. I'd fear the key of David first.
JOHN: well, the people that I'm dealing with
aren't here to listen to Scripture.
DAVID: No, I know they're not.
JOHN: And I'm being very candid with you --
DAVID: lndiscernible!
JOHN: -- I'm being very truthful with you,
they're not here to listen to Scripture and, you know,
they just -- they're not concerned about being
convinced of your doctrine.
DAVID: I know they're not.
JOHN: All they're concerned about is the
resolution of this situation and, and they're saying
this cannot go on for a lengthy period of time, it must
be resolved within a reasonable amount of time. I
can't tell you what a reasonable amount of time is. I
don't know.
DAVID: A reasonable amount of time is the
amount of time to reason, in this case.
JOHN: Well, I mean that's rhetoric.
_ 27
DAVID: That's the fact.
JOHN: I know, I know.
DAVID: The fact. .
JOHN: _But put yourself in my seat.
DAVID: Well, John, come to my funeral then.
If these guys want to make a move what can I say?
JOHN: You well, do you think I'm
foolish -- I
DAVID: I'll, I'll, I'll get what I'm trying
to, I'll get what I'm trying to say I don't want to get
and if I, if I become a carcass too quick -- '
JOHN: Well
DAVID: -- what can I do indiscernible!.
JOHN: - you know that's not going to happen
don't you?
DAVID: Nell, with you, yes. I wish you were
the President right now.
JOHN: You know everybody's got their agenda,
right? You've got your agenda, they've got their
agenda and we're hoping this thing can be worked out.
And that's all I can, that's all I can try to do, and
that's all that everybody else can try to do is work it
out successfully, work it out peacefully.
DAVID: Have you ever eaten HRE's before,
John?
JOHN: Yeah, I sure have.
28
DAVID: Did you ever have potato a la gratin?
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: Well --
JOHN: Great stuff. Put a little tabasco
sauce on it.
DAVID: We call them potato a la rotten.
JOHN: All rotten, huh?
DAVID: Potato a la rotten.
JOHN: Nah, put a little tabasco sauce on it
and it'll sparkle your life a little bit.
DAVID: Laughter!
JOHN: Little cayenne pepper.
DAVID: Yeah, we got that.
JOHN: Hey.
DAVID: We're into that. That's good --
JOHN: I can't imagine eating eggs in the
morning without it.
DAVID: Oh, good, I'm glad. You know,
cayenne is very good for you.
JOHN: Keeps you regular.
DAVID: Pungent, yeah.
JOHN: You'll never eat another prune in your
life.
DAVID: It's, it's, it's good for your
digestive system.
JOHN: It is.
29
DAVID: It's a healing herb.
JOHN: It is.
DAVID: It really is.
JOHN: It is.
DAVID: You're all right, man. I think
you're all right.
JOHN: Hey, hey. We're going to talk in the
morning, huh?
DAVID: Yeah, first thing.
JOHN: You're not letting David -- David? --
boo. You're not letting, letting Steven sleeo through
all of this are you?
DAVID: No, he likes to hear me.
JOHN: You said there were others learning
this evening. K
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: Poor Rachel had to, had to listen to
your lecture to mel
DAVID: No, Rachel went to sleep.
JOHN: Oh, good.
DAVID: She said she's got you figured out.
_ JOHN: She does?" I look forward to seeing
her too. Haven't talked to Judy in quite a while.
How's she doing?
DAVID: She hates you.
JOHN: Oh, how can you say that?
30
DAVID: She does.
JOHN: Why?
DAVID: Because.
JOHN: Oh, because why? What did I do to
her?
DAVID: You know, look, let me tell you about
women. Women look at things that cause them to be
terrified. _
JOHN: You're going to a guy that's been
married for 28 years --
DAVID: The lights went out, the lights went
out ""
JOHN: -- and tell me about women?
DAVID: The lights went out and --
JOHN: Laughter!
DAVID: -- and no milk for the babies and
they're just like aah! so you have to stifle all that
down too. Honestly, John, you really do, I have to.
JOHN: What?
DAVID: It's, it's, it's a sad situation for
me --
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: -- in all the wisdom that I'm
supposed to have --
JOHN: That's right.
DAVID: -- to have to get them to trust me
3 1
after all these years that some of them have trusted
me.
JOHN: Got to trust someone though, huh?
DAVID: But they have questions at this
point.
JOHN: I've got to trust what you're doing in
there and you've got to trust what I'm doing out here.
DAVID: Well, we see it. I mean it's -- you
know, we're getting them to the - we're getting to
this indiscernible! one by one --
JOHN: YOU are .
DAVID: -- you know, quick enough.
JOHN: You are. I mean, you're - I guess
had a lot of work out out for you this evening.
DAVID: Well, like I say, when - you know,
when you all see Vickie and everyone treat them good.
JOHN: We do.
DAVID: I mean, they've, they've looked for
truth for many years.
JOHN: And I hope you believe that we're
treating them well. I'm not going to lie to you about
it. A
DAVID: They were Catholics, you know?
JOHN: Hey, I don't care what faith they
were.
DAVID: I'm just telling you, you know? They
32
-- catholics that are practicing Catholics are very
highly convicted --
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: -- of God.
JOHN: Well, so are Baptists, so are Jewish
people.
DAVID: Well, well, there's some churches not
so much so, they're more -- how do I say? -- they're
more liberal.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: You know, fun-loving --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: - you know, more, more basic, you
know, more like gOOd Old Joe's, you know, every once in
a while indiscernible! you know?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: But some churches have, have -- and
especially the ecumenical churches have real sober,
sober Sunday and then --
JOHN:' You're right, you're right.
DAVID: And some of them not so much so.
Some, some -- you never see a Catholic priest get up
there and joke around and make up jokes.
JOHN: Well, I do.
DAVID: With --
JOHN: I do. I -- we, we have a parish
,1
f33
priest --
DAVID: Really?
I JOHN: -- that's the greatest breath of fresh
air that I've seen in years and I not only think he's a
great priest, I think he's a great human being.
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JOHN: And he totally turned the church
around because of his personality and his way of
talking to people and his way of dealing with people
and his charisma.
DAVID: It's not the straight Latin then is
it? _
JOHN: No, hey, haven't had -- haven't been
to a mass in Latin in years. Been to them in
Portuguese, been to them in Spanish, French. Latin,
1965.
DAVID: Hmm.
JOHN: It's been a long time since I've
listened to latina a homme phonetic!.
DAVID: I --
JOHN: And had it in school, I might add,
too. Y
DAVID: Latin, uh-huh.
JOHN: You know what they said? Latin was
the language dead as dead can be, first it killed the
Romans now it's killing me, huh?
34
DAVID: Laughter!
JOHN: Laughter! Lot of, lot of truth in
that: Lot of truth in that. But, you know, he, he had
a lot of, a lot of -- this priest came from a small
country town but has, has one of the greatest ways of
coming across to people and, you know, if I consider
him not as a priest but as just a human, a decent,
decent person, he's be right up top of the list because
I've seen him totally, totally turn around a parish and
make it into a parish where people want to be involved
and want to participate and want to learn and that's
what it's all about; whether it's that religion or any
other religion, just a good person. And that's the way
I look at most religious, they're good people because
they care.
DAVID: That's what it's for isn't it?
JOHN: Yeah, it is. And I hope you --
DAVID: klndiscernible!
JOHN: - I hope you think that I care as
much out here as you care in there.
DAVID: Well, that's good. That's what I
hope for. I
JOHN: You know?
DAVID: So, in other words, when we all come
out be sure and keep sending us some cards now.
JOHN: I will. Hey. I'll be out here toJ
92
l
,C O
35
greet you.
DAVID: No, I'm talking about when we -- when
we're in there waiting for our, for our judgments to
come up.
JOHN: well, I'll probably be sitting --
DAVID: You'll just, you'll just go off
indiscernible!.
JOHN: -- I'll probably be sitting right over
there with you.
DAVID: Be sucking on those crawdads,
crawfish, crawfish, crawfish, crawdads, red-eyes.
JOHN: Eat your, eat your heart -- with a
little cayenne pepper on them too.
DAVID: Yeah, sucking those crawdad heads
and, and forget about it. <
JOHN: Listen, I'm sure I will be subpoenaed
to testify for many people, and that's what I'll do,
and that's, that's the way the system works. Remember
last night I mentioned a bunch of people to you?
DAVID: Right.
JOHN: Think - might be able to talk to some
of them tomorrow?
DAVID: Oh, you haven't talked to them yet?
JOHN: No.
DAVID: Oh, okay, sure. No problem.
JOHN: Uh-uh. One of them that I guess I
36
mispronounced her name, Sandra?
_ DAVID: What did Sandra's name turn out to
be, Steve?
JOHN: Hardial.
DAVID: Hardial?
JOHN: God, he's still awake?
DAVID: Harding. Yeah, he's -- Steve's
sitting right here taking notes. '
JOHN: Laughter! You're a tough task
master.
DAVID: No, I mean, he's, he's, he's doing
work on his own.
JOHN: Well, it was --
DAVID: Steve -- I've gone all over this
country and talked with, you know, big shots supposedly
and Steve's come along and --
JOHN: Well, it was Sandra Hardial and
Melissa Morrison and my pal Sherrie.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: Margarita Vega --
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JOHN: -- and Scott and Sita and David
Thibodeau -- ~
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: and I've seen his mother on TV a
couple of days --
0 I
37
DAVID: she's an activist isn't she?
JOHN: -- here in town. She's looking out
for her son's welfare though. That's what mothers are
all about.
DAVID: She never let him grow up
indiscernible!.
JOHN: I can't comment on that, can I?
DAVID: Yeah, well indiscernible!.
JOHN: I, I don't really know her. Hey,
you'd better let Steve get some sleep.
DAVID: lndiscernible! '
JOHN: He's going to be terrible to deal with
in the morning if he misses out on all of his sleep.
God, he gives me more excuses about how he didn't get
enough sleep. You're, youfre a real --
JOHN: He says, he says you always give him
excuses, Steve, he never gets enough sleep -- you never
get enough sleep. Vi
JOHN: Laughter! You got to give him a
break every now and then.
DAVID: I do. You don't understand these
people. They do what they want to do. I reprove them
for it but hey --
JOHN: Has he got one eye open or two eyes
open, or it's hard --
DAVID: He's got two eyes open and --
38
JOHN: - or it's hard to tell in the dark?
DAVID: Two eyes open and a grin from ear to
ear.
JOHN: Good, good. You tell him I love him
too, huh?
DAVID: All right. I'm going to let you tell
him. He wants to say something --
JOHN: I will.
DAVID: - to you real quick.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: John, what's happening?
JOHN: I suppose you're going to tell me you
didn't get enough sleep last night, huh?
STEVE: Laughter!
JOHN: Laughter!
STEVE: When are you turning in, anyway?
JOHN: nun?
STEVE: when are you going to be turning in?
JOHN:: I'm getting - I'll be up until at
least 8:00 in the morning, 9:00 in the morning.
STEVE: Oh, oh, wow indiscernible!.
JOHN: That's because I love you people.
STEVE: Well, I'm glad to hear it --
JOHN: Huh?
STEVE: -- I really am.
JOHN: Hey, I can't tell you how much I
f
92
39
appreciate what --
STEVE: Okay. Now, what is --
JOHN: -- what you and David did last night.
STEVE: No, I don't -- you're not leaving
though are you?
JOHN: It's a possibility.
STEVE: Really?
JOHN: Both John-1 and John-2.
STEVE: Oh, man, the two best guys of the
whole team.
JOHN: Well, I won't tell you that we're
definitely leaving, but I'll tell you it's a, it's a
real possibility.
STEVE: You tell those commanders you two
guys have done more than anyone else has, seriously.
What's all happening is because of your wisdom, your
insight working as you have.
JOHN: Well, the, the people that we answer
to --
STEVE: These people indiscernible! they
gave -- you know, they've gained confidence and so
forth. It's helped. It really has helped a lot.
JOHN: Well, I appreciate it. I, I just --
STEVE: You guys know where we're coming
from, you've had patience with us, you've listened.
Even though whether you like it or not you've been
40
decent and respectful about it. I mean, seriously, you
two guys, I can see you doing very well anywhere you
go.
JOHN: Well, we hate to have to leave, you
know, and, and I hope we don't.
STEVE: I'm hoping not either. Maybe they
can give you just a few day vacation or something -
indiscernible!.
JOHN: Well, I don't think that's in the
cards. But, you know, we're hoping --
STEVE: Indisoernible!
JOHN: to see this thing out.
STEVE: Okay. Well, that's --
JOHN: And it's just the people we answer to
get very impatient.
STEVE: Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure.
JOHN: Ang they look for tangible things
and --
s'rsvs= Right.
JOHN: -- I hope they can see more of them.
STEVE: Well, so you're going to be leaving,
you're going out - you're turning in about 8:00 or
9:00 in the morning then, huh?
JOHN: Oh, I'm not leaving tomorrow morning.
STEVE: No, no, I know that. I mean though
but you're going to be getting some --
41
JOHN: Turning in about -- you got that
right.
STEVE: Yeah. Well, I'm sure --
JOHN: And John-2 will be here.
STEVE: Yeah, he'll be calling me early I'd
imagine.
JOHN: Oh, yeah. _
STEVE: So I, I should like yourself get some
sleep.
JOHN: You should.
STEVE: Okay.» Well, 1'11 be talking to you
both tomorrow sometime then.
JOHN: You betcha, you betcha. And, and
hopefully we'll, we'll have some other folks coming out
with Rita in the morning. I know she was reluctant to
come out tonight, but --
STEVE: Yeah. She's trying to gain --
JOHN: Giye her some confidence.
STEVE: That's right, that's right.
JOHN: Okay?
STEVE: We'll be working on it.
JOHN: And tell her that she can continue her
studies and try to work some miracles for me will you?
STEVE: I'm trying.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: I'm trying.
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE: Rita's here right now. You want toAll right.
John?
Yes?
talk to her for just a minute?
JOHN: Sure, be happy to.
STEVE: Okay, okay
JOHN: I didn't know she was still up.
STEVE:
JOHN:
RITA:
JOHN:
RITA:
JOHN:
RITA:
JOHN:
tonight too?
RITA:
JOHN:
RITA:
out, you know --
JOHN:
RITA:
JOHN:
RITA:
JOHN:Here she is.
Okay. '
He1lo?,
Hey, Rita?
Hey.
This is John.
Hi, John.
You've been
Oh, yeah.up getting a lesson
The same one I've getting?
well, yeah indiscernible! if I come
Well, good.
-r- with you
Good.
You all get
We get moreguys, you know.
more studies than we do.
what?
having you comeO Q
43
RITA: Studies than we do.
JOHN: Laughter! I hope not.
RITA: Well --
JOHN: We get a lot of them, but --
RITA: You have lately.
JOHN: Well, I tell you, look forward to
out because as I told both David and
Steve tonight, that when, when Vickie and Anita or
Annetta --
RITA: Uh-huh.
JOHN: came out, we got Vickie over to
Hillsboro Hospital this evening because he said that
she
had
got
herwasn't doing too well. She's on medication, she
a bad ankle and so we wanted to make sure that she
some medical attention right away. But she's got
Bible, she's going to be able to continue her --
RITA: She'll survive then.
JOHN: You bet your life she will, and she'll
do fine. And I was glad that she had somebody to come
outwith or to give her a little support and not only
physical support but some moral support when she came
out
RITA: Um-hum.
JOHN: - because just like Brad and like
Kevin and like Ollie, they have their Bibles, they can
continue their studying and one thing we do is respect
14 15O I
44
people's religious beliefs. So I know, I know David
indicated that you were reluctant to come out and I'm
sure you will continue to have access to David in the
future, you know, after you do some out.
RITA: I sure hope so.
JOHN: I'm sure you will. And hey, I, I look
forward to you coming out tomorrow and others coming
out with you tomorrow, you know, and, and these people
are just going to have to be strong because David's
been the leader, you know, and, and they rely on him
for so many things, not only religious things but
worldly things, but other -- but spiritual things and,
you know, I understand that that is very difficult to
take that step away from there and --
RITA: Yeah, that's right.
JOHN: - it's not an easy thing. And, and I
appreciate it and I appreciate what you're going
through and it's a lot of soul searching. But I know
you'll do what your soul tells you to do and I just
want you to know that the door's open, you're, you're
going to be well cared for when you come out here and
you got nothing to fear. I don't know what else I
could tell you.
92 RITA: Well, that's all right, that's okay.
JOHN: Well, and, and that all of the laws, '
not just God's law, but the laws of the country are
~
. 45
here to serve you when you come out. So, plus you got
-- you'll have legal advice and everything else, but
hope you get a good night's sleep and, and be ready to
come out and see us in the morning.
RITA: Well, well, I'll see.
JOHN: Okay.
RITA: Okay.
JOHN: You sound like you're in a good frame
of mind.
RITA: Well, it's getting better.
JOHN: You're a happy person.
RITA: Yeah, it's getting better.
JOHN: considering it's 3:00 in the morning,
huh? It's tough to be a happy camper at 3:00 in the
morning.
RITA: Yeah, true.
JOHN: Well, you, you get yourself some
sleep, huh?
RITA: Okay.
JOHN: Okay?
RITA: All right.
JOHN: It's good talking to you.
RITA: All right. Good night.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
End of Tape 148.!