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OLIVER GYARFAS, SR., gg Q1;
V.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, gg Q1;
Plaintiffs First Request For Production
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excised copy~ and Inspection of Documents
Responsive Documents from
San Antonio file 89B-SA38851
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W!r_
QELEIION COQES
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WK /55
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IU.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #153
3/21/93 3/22/93
11:36 P.M. - 9:33 A.M.
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JOHN COX; -- well, I'll pass it on because I
know what David said, that he wanted to --
STEVE: David said --
JOHN COX: -- have a prayer session this
evening with people that were going to be coming out
and if, if this makes it difficult for the prayer
session, it won't be held so I hear where you're coming
from.
STEVE: Okay, listen, David just said to me,
you know, after talking to John Dolan yesterday, you
last night, you know exactly what we're about. We're
trying to give people an opportunity -- he's letting
them ask their questions, finalizing that with them,
that they might be sure in their own mind and confident
in why they even came here, that they go out. This of
course,is creating the opposite effect.
JOHN cox= Okay. .
' STEVE: So, I mean it's up to them. You
know, you give it to them. They can continue with
this. It's fine. You know, it's their choice, of
course. Koresh in background not discernible.! Every
time -- is John, John --
JOHN COX: I'm sorry. Yeah.
STEVE: Like David said, every time we've
complied with you people and we've worked and every
time it starts becoming a snowball effect where we're
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working harder and harder, something like this comes up
and if it's not turning off the electricity and
reneging on like the Newsweek and all that sort of
thing and like happened a week ago Friday, almost 10
days ago. Now here we go again. Anytime we start
trying to do and facilitate the very things that Byron
is talking about, maybe not 40, S0 or 150 people in the
day, but we're working with these people. But this is
the sort of thing that is -- Koresh in background not
discernible! -- no, in fact, he told you that last
night. He can't even get that many people in his room.
And like I made it very clear that day that he came
down and took a chance of moving around, he started
bleeding all over again. But you know, it's up to them
.. JOHN COX: Well, let me talk to some people
and éee what we can do. '
STEVE: Sure. No problem, you know. But
like I'm saying for myself,
I __
JOHN COX: We're all -- all the people that
you're talking to out here are trying to resolve it
successfully.
STEVE; Well, I have a hard time buying that
after our third --
JOHN COX: Well, don't. Don't have a hard
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time because we really are.
STEVE: I talked to John. Well, John, today
I talked to John3 all day and the man may mean well.
It might be your psychology games you have between you
all. I know when a person goes to buy an automobile,
there are dealerships set up were one guy comes on real
hard and then you get a softie who finally the person
turns to that person, almost --
JOHN COX: Well, we're, none of us are
softies and none of us are hardies. We're all, we're
all - we may have a little different personalities but
we're all striving for the same thing.
STEVE: Byron and John3 today -- the way
Byron came on in the evening. I mean, well, you know,
here we are working with you and Dolan and thinking
we're getting somewhere and bingo, I mean, you know --
Kofesh in background not discernible! -- it is, that's
I }
what I told him. It happened 10 days ago on that
Friday night. We were on a roll. Things were starting
to pick up and bang. So you know --
JOHN COX: Let me go talk to some people.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: That's the best option I have.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN cox: Okay.
STEVE: David is here strumming on the guitar
so he'll be awake.
JOHN COX: Uh-oh. Don't let him strum too
long.
STEVE: No, okay.
JOHN COX: I'll be back in touch with you.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN COX: Bye.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
iiiriir
STEVE: David wanted to know if that's the
best your choir can do.
JOHN COX: It's that bad. I don't know.
STEVE: He doesn't know, he said. Just a
minutew
P.
3 DAVID: You've not been privileged to hear
this fine selection of music?
JOHN COX: NO. No. What is it?
DAVID: It goes like this - it goes [makes
noise]. It's Latin but it's like turned down real low
and it's got weird sound [makes noise] --
JOHN COX: If it sped up a little would it
make any sense do you think?
DAVID: I believe so.
JOHN COX: Oh, Lord. I don't know.
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DAVID: It might be bat masking but --
JOHN COX: I don't know. I don't know.
Listen, I passed on --
STEVE: Let them guys know what we're doing.
JOHN COX; -- what you said and actually
before I could get a response, Steve called about the
other music. You know, I thought -- you were talking
about Byron, Byron's --
DAVID: Here it comes again. Here it comes
again. Hear it?
JOHN COX: I can't, I can't hear it.
DAVID: Put this phone to the window there --
JOHN COX: I can hear it.
music!
STEVE: Could you hear it?
M JOHN COX: Marvelous, marvelous.
STEVE: John, John --
' JOHN COX: I could hear it. Let me tell you.
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STEVE: Can I say something?
JOHN COX: Go ahead.
STEVE: I mean, this is an experience for me.
Living in America all these years, to think our
founding -- you know, mature men -- this is 1993.
We're going into the Dark Ages, aren't we. I mean, you
know, you know what the Dark Ages were about --
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JOHN COX: When David, called --
STEVE: - the persecution of millions of
people because they had convictions of conscience and
so forth. You know that the prophesies talk about us
going back into such a state.
JOHN COX: Listen, when I got the first call
to try and --
STEVE: What kind of mindset - I want to
discuss this with you guys --
JOHN COX: Listen. Listen to me Steve. When
I got the first call about the monotonous dialogue that
was coming over the recorder, I went back to try and
find somebody that could resolve that situation.
STEVE: Leave it on because, you know, like
David said --
~ JOHN COX: Listen to me. I tried to find
somebody that could resolve this thing. So, I talked
to somebody and the response was that the person that
ordered this done will not be back until the morning --
STEVE: The person that ordered it done won't
be back until the morning, he said.
JOHN COX: And they made the decision for it.
STEVE: And they made the decision for it.
JOHN COX: Now, when you called me back and
you said this owakanobe music or whatever it is is
going on. That's what it sounds like, owakanobe, or
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something.
STEVE: Owakanobe music?
JOHN COX: I don't know what it is.
STEVE: He calls it owakanobe music.
JOHN COX: Well, that's what it sounds like
doesn't it? Ow-kan-obe, or something. Anyhow, when you
called and said that was going on, I went back and
said, well, what can we do. And, the response was, and
this was after you told me, hey, nobody is coming out
with this, you can play it as loud as you want, ba-ba
ba-ba ba-ba, every time we try to comply with
something, something goes wrong. So I said, well, what
can we do about it? And, the response was, if you tell
us, give us a commitment how many people are coming
out, maybe we can do something about it.
'- STEVE: Yeah. He says, if we make a
Icomm}tment as to how many people are coming out, then
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they'll turn it off. Koresh in background not
discernible!. He said, you know, he's being really
cool and decent about this, with a smile. He says all
of us eventually -- p
JOHN COX: I know that and you know that --
STEVE: You and I both know this is slowing
the process down. No question --
JOHN COX: I know what you're telling me. I
understand what you're telling me. The question that
was
the
you
the
was9
posed to me that I'm posing to you, all right. I'm
facilitator; I'm the middleman. I'm posing it to
How many people are coming out after David has
opportunity to --
STEVE: You're not --
JOHN COX: Let me, let me just pass on what I
asked.
STEVE: I know. Go ahead.
JOHN COX: Let me just pass on what I asked
because I already know what your answer is. All right.
But
Alllet me pass on --
STEVE: What, that this county is ripe for --
-JOHN COX: Let me pass on - come on Steve.
right. I was asked, after David gets done praying
with his people and after they go over Micah and after
they go_over Nam, if the music is turned off, how many
peopge will come out tomorrow. That's the only
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question I was asked to ask you, or ask David, either
one
STEVE: Well, I just mentioned it to him, so
he's not saying anything about it.
JOHN COX: That's what I was asked to check.
Koresh in background not discernible.!
STEVE: How many were sent out today, in the
24-hour period between last night, later than this
period of time right now and --
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JOHN COX: Seven.
STEVE: That's correct. Seven.
JOHN COX: The two ladies came out about
12:15 and then five came out during the day.
STEVE: That's right. So that's what David
asked. V
JOHN COX: Huh? Well, I know that. But all
I was asked was to have the music turned off to give
David the opportunity to spend time with these people,
what commitment would he make as far as numbers of
people that are coming out tomorrow.
STEVE: David says that he doesn't understand
it because instead of speeding things up, it seems like
they're trying to hinder it. I mean, honestly --
JOHN COX: I'm not going to argue that with
you. All I, all I was asked is to ask a question and
to gét an answer to that so that we can try to work
with'this.
STEVE: All I can say is whoever God is or
isn't, all these years, I'm kind of glad for an
experience like this. I really am. I mean, I never --
can I just talk for a little while?
JOHN COX: Just give me an idea and then talk
and talk and talk. Give me an idea.
STEVE: I don't -- he's not -- I asked him.
He's not --
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JOHN COX: Yeah, what did he say?
STEVE: Nothing. He said what I just told
you he said.
JOHN COX: Well, try and help me --
STEVE: Let me just say -- you helped me
once --
JOHN cox= All right.
STEVE: I was raised in this country just
like you were. I was born here. I went through all
the system and everything. I learned about the
Constitution. What a great country we have. I always
knew that ultimately it would come to this. I saw it
eroding years ago.
JOHN COX: Where did you see it eroding?
STEVE: By certain powerful men in certain
positions. Tyranny is what the word has been ever
sine? for 6,000 years from this person Cain, there was
Cain and Abel. But here, I don't know, it's still a
hard thing to believe that in this country that there
are men that do things like this. People sitting in
their homes are attacked and ransacked just like the
examples given to me about the ATF, the mistakes
they've made. They don't get out over the airwaves.
There ought to be TV programs about things like that.
It's hard to believe that this was the country that was
founded by people trying to get away to practice their
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religious beliefs and not force them on others. It's
not happening any more, is it? Are you there?
JOHN COX: I'm listening to you, Steve. Go
ahead.
STEVE: What do you think about this America,
what's happening now? I mean --
JOHN COX: I think it's still the best --
STEVE: -- this isn't Russia or Siberia.
We're not talking about some African nation or some
Hindu gurus or something.
JOHN COX: Steve, when I've talked to you and
when anyone else has talked to you, or to David or to
anyone else in there, we want to communicate. We want
to get a dialogue going, we want to get a rapport build
up I
.. STEVE: Well, I'm actually, no --
_§ JOHN COX: ~ and we want to resolve this
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thing. "
STEVE: Listen, John. Can you give me an
answer what you think of this kind of thing and
America, you know, the way -- America is over 200 years
old now.
JOHN COX: Well, I'll tell you about this
thing. Some people's patience wear thin and their
patience wears thin and they say, look, if somebody
wants to not move along fast enough, we going to try
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and assist them in moving. That's why I said, what
kind of a figure can I give to somebody -- and if --
whatever you want to tell me --
STEVE: Round and round the merry-go-round we
go.
JOHN COX: Anything that you want to tell me.
STEVE: How do you relate this to someone
like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Jefferson. Is
this what you think they had in mind for this country
and the peoples of this country and their guaranteed
freedom and rights and consciousness and all the rest?
Is that what you think? I was sitting here three weeks
ago minding my own business and doing nothing illegal
nor did I before that day nor since that time. And all
of a sudden, I'm to come out, go through prison,
probably, who knows what you kind of people are up to.
I --fIll tell you the truth. I have no idea. I don't
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know.
JOHN COX: You know, you know how everyone
has been treated that's come out of there.
STEVE: I'll tell you the honest truth. The
bottom line is, I don't trust the system, period,
anymore. Listening to this tells me how far this
country has really deteriorated with the men that are
in control. No matter what you guys do to me, what
happens to me the day I stop breathing, I believe in a
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God. And all these kinds of things, everything is
going to be answered for. Oh, I'm going to stand in
the Judgement, John Cox, I am.
JOHN COX: Aren't we all.
STEVE: You bet.
JOHN COX: Sure we are.
STEVE: But I don't believe that 99 percent
of the people in control believe it. I don't think
that they believe in this book call the Bible. I
really don't think so. It's been around a long time.
There's a lot of people --
JOHN COX: Well, I hope they do.
STEVE: -- that need a crutch --
JOHN COX: I hope you're wrong and I hope
they do. I really --
~ STEVE: If there's -- I wouldn't care to live
anyilonger if there isn't justice beyond what we find
in America.
JOHN COX: Well, Steve, you and I know that
the people that have come out of there so far have been
treated extremely well --
STEVE: John, you --
JOHN COX: And the justice system in this
country -- we're talking the justice system, is the
best in the world and everybody is innocent until
proven guilty. We've kicked this around and kicked
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this around. The only reason I called back in there
and I wanted to talk to you is to see if you can give
me a figure. Give me an idea.
STEVE: I have been working with you all --
John Dolan - last night --
JOHN COX: I'm not arguing that.
STEVE: I'm not getting -- John, you guys get
to take a break and all that. I haven't, man, I was up
all night. You knew --
JOHN COX: I'm not arguing that with you.
STEVE: I had 2 hours of sleep. I got up and
start dealing with John-3, man, the push. It's hard to
even think when you're not getting enough rest. How am
I going to talk people into leaving here when this is
going on out here.
. JOHN COX: Steve, Steven, I'm not arguing
withkyou, pal. I think you've been doing a remarkable
job in there. And, I think you've been very patient,
you've been working hard and you've got the right thing
in mind. All I'm saying is, I've got to deal with
somebody and that person said, can you give me a figure
to consider to turn it off.
STEVE: N0 --
JOHN COX: And that's all I'm looking for.
STEVE: I don't have one, John.
JOHN COX: I'm not here to argue with you
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because --
STEVE: I don't have one. I know for sure
David's not going to call somebody in tonight and try
to compete with all this. I know he's not.
Okay.
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here.
I wasJOHN COX: Well, then let me go pass it on.
Let me go pass it on.
STEVE: I'm waiting.
JOHN COX: Okay. I'll call you back.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN COX: Thank you.
~k**i*
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello.
JOHN: Hello, is Steve there?
h UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yes, here he
STEVE: Hello.
JOHN: Steve, this is John.
STEVE; John, how's it going?
JOHN: Good. How are you doing?
STEVE: Tired. I've about lost my voice
JOHN: Yeah. You lost your voice?
STEVE: Oh, yeah, from all the talking. Yes,
up quite late.
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'1JOHN: Steve, there
music. We got that turned off17
was some mention of the
last night.
STEVE: Oh, did they? I didn't even realize
it. I must have fallen asleep when it was going.
JOHN: Yeah. Okay.
anybody today, Steve?
STEVE: No. In fact
few minutes ago.
JOHN: Okay. Do you
anybody?
STEVE
together here.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE : Oh, man.
JOHN: Okay. I know
yesterday.
i
STEVE: I was quite
music, if you want to call it
JOHN: That was one
STEVE: Did you get
JOHN: NO, I didn't.
STEVE: Are you sure: First I've got to getHave you been talking to
, I just woke up about a
plan on speaking to
my head
you were working hard
surprised about that
music.
of the --
to hear it yourself?
What was it?
you haven't heard it?
JOHN: I'm telling you, I haven't heard it.
I wasn't here last night. Gongs? Somebody said it was
gongs?
STEVE: It was what?
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JOHN: Gongs or chanting or something?
STEVE: What do you call it, gones?
JOHN: GON-G-S.
STEVE: GO - oh, gongs. No, it sounded
like a slowed-down version of Gregorian chanting or
something like that, or something from a monastery.
JOHN: We got that turned off, right?
STEVE: I don't know, I guess. As I was
sleeping, it was going, so I don't know.
JOHN: About 1 o'clock. Do you have anybody
that's interested in listening to what you have to say
today, Steve?
STEVE: What I need to do is go and see what
David is doing and --
JOHN: What's David doing now?
h STEVE: I don't know. He's probably
sleeping. I don't know. So I'm going to probably get
up gere in about a second and start moving around and
see what we can get going.
JOHN: Okay, Steve, was there a Schider that
you mentioned?
STEVE: It was a David Scheidler. I guess he
had called from what I'm told.
JOHN: We're trying to run that down and find
out what the conversation was or what the contact was.
STEVE: I see. Okay.
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JOHN: So what's the attitude in there?
STEVE: Well, you know, with last night, I
talked with just a couple of people because of whatever
that was and everybody was like, This is America? This
is the United States? Who's in control here? You
know, everybody starts, like me, like I talked to John
Cox. I said, John, I don't mind. They can turn it up
loud and play it morning, noon and night, but is that
what this country has degenerated into. A couple of
hundred - here we have a couple centuries that have
gone by. You think of people like Madison and
Jefferson, and founding forefathers, Abraham Lincoln
and I think they'd roll over in their grave, to tell
you the truth. I really would -- John, I'm shocked. I
really am. This is my country, the country I grew up
in? So proud and happy over the Constitution and the
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way ghis country has always been. I don't know. I
really -- I tell you the truth. You know, the reason
why I'm here, and I'm not going to get into some long
spiel. I'll just tell you real quick, because of the
Bible. It's the only thing that's consistent for
answers for me. It is. I really believe that this
country, this world is ripe for judgement. II really
do. All these years, man's filled up his cup with
iniquity. We've all done our own thing. We're proud
and arrogant. Everybody is. Even though all we are is
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dust. Even though we're all subject to death every '
moment of every day. I tell you what, I can't wait
until it's all over. I'm talking about everything.
There's got to be a better way than this. Mankind
doing what he does to one another. I came here to
study the Bible, not to be murdered Sunday, February
28.
JOHN: Yeah. Steve. That -- I just wanted
to clarify something. That music was the idea of one
of the tactical guys and I didn't agree with it because
you know that if I wanted to talk to you and get some
things going, I'm here. You know that. Right?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay. We appreciate your efforts
anyhow. I know you were trying hard yesterday and I'd
like you to continue if you would then maybe we can
morelforward from here. Okay?
g STEVE: Sure. All right. So I mean, has
that been used on others also? Is that a common thing
that the FBI does?
JOHN: I haven't heard of it and I don't '
think it is.
STEVE: I'll tell you the truth. I never in
my life, I mean I could understand if it was the KGB or
something in Russia, it makes sense to me.
JOHN: Steve, you know, I'm negotiating with
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you. You know that?
STEVE: Umhum.
JOHN: As has John Cox and John Dolan.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: All right. And we're all friends.
And Byron. Okay. And we all feel that we can work
this out successfully but you know, as well as I do,
that there are two factions here. Do you know what I
mean?
STEVE: You bet I do.
JOHN: And you working with us gives up more
input to the bosses. They don't tell us everything
that they've got planned and that they've got in mind.
Now, yesterday, they told us about the music -- or the
moving of the stuff and I told you that. I wanted to
be up front with you --
I
§ STEVE: I don't remember you telling me about
any music.
JOHN: No, I mean the moving of the vehicles.
STEVE: I thought what you said was they were
going to move things from the front and not the go-
carts and so forth. They crushed three go-carts and
there is an Airstream trailer that belongs to an older
woman that's not even here right now -- it's about a
$30,000 trailer and they -- I mean, it looks not even
like an accordion now.
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JOHN: Steve, you know that the civil courts
and civil process can handle that and you'll have every
opportunity.
STEVE: Is that true?
JOHN: Yes, it is. You know, Wayne would be
able to advise you on that. You can bring civil suits
against the government for all of that damage.
STEVE: I guess I'm just lacking in
understanding about those kind of things.
JOHN: Well, Steve, if you came out and
brought up those questions and got an attorney. You've
got two attorneys that have been retained by your
sister to represent you, Zimmerman and Levine, who have
a great reputation and they could help you with that
stuff and help the other people in there too.
,, STEVE: Well, like you and I know, I've been
defihitely taking about everybody there is here and
J}
working on it. I don't ~- I really didn't understand
the tactics yesterday and --
JOHN; As I don't either.
STEVE: All the way through, I mean,
especially when I thought it was the best day. There
was seven people in less than 24 hours and I never
quit. I never quit.
JOHN: Steve, I appreciate your efforts.
STEVE: When they wanted everybody, like I
23
told you, even yesterday, I was willing. What should I
do, grab somebody by the neck or the collar, or
something and try to pull them out? I mean, I wouldn't
have gotten very far.
JOHN: Do you remember yesterday when we
first started talking and I mentioned the word
imperative and critical? Okay. Those weren't my
words. Those were the words that I was told to tell
you. Those weren't my words and they don't tell me
everything that they have going but they said it was
imperative and critical that a substantial progress be
made yesterday and then when it wasn't, it's out of my
hands. So, you know, the best deal for you is dealing
with us and showing us some good faith.
STEVE: Well, I thought that's what I've
done. 1
Q JOHN: I know, you've been working and I
appreciate that but if you would continue to do that,
we can get forward from here and resolve this. Nobody,
nobody likes it.
STEVE: Whether it seems like it or not, I
mean, we're all fallible as human beings, but my
intentions I've always wanted to be straightforward
and honest and so forth, and what's happened here since
that Sunday on through. I mean, like I said, I'm
coming out and I know it's all going to work where
C Q
24
everybody does come out but I really believe that
there's going to be charges manufactured beyond
anything of my control or belief that such a thing
could happen. I really do. But I mean, it's not going
to -- I'll still come out. Whatever this government
wants to do with me, I mean, it's fine. It's going to
have to be.
JOHN: Steve, you've got good attorneys to
represent you.
STEVE: I'll tell you the honest truth, John.
I don't trust too much in anything anymore. I mean,
that - right up until that Sunday I did. I had, you
know, I've heard things through the last number of
years by being in contact with different professors at
universities, from their connections and awareness of
what goes on behind the scenes and you know, you always
kindgof keep - well, you kind of wonder about those
things. So that's why since being in conversation with
many of the negotiators, you're in a position where you
can know a lot and so that's why I raised a number of
questions about different things I've heard about to
hear some kind of a response to really see what you
guys think about it all. I
J JOHN: Steve, I wouldn't be here talking to
you if I didn't want to resolve this peacefully and
have everybody come out of there and go through the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
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12
13
14
15
16
17
19
20
21
22
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24
251
1
1
»
I
iO I
25
system and be represented in court and --
STEVE: Can I ask you a question again. What
kind of a system do those -- somebody made some
mistakes in the ATP. Someone really did and if they
don't come to the conclusion that they fired first and
what they did by shooting at David's room from the
chopper, if that doesn't come out and it's suppressed
and that wouldn't surprise'me if it was. But what's
going to happen to some of those individuals if by
chance that is a total honest organization and they
find the facts as they are and they are brought out.
What's going to happen to some of those? Those that
fired first? If it was a mistake or whatever else. I
mean, it would be a mistake in the first place. A
chopper - three of them coming in flying toward the
building and you'll find out again. I'm going to tell
you g At least you people will know that bullets came
from a high diagonal through the water tanks and they
were drained immediately. You're going to find
something else out when you come and check this place
out, if it's left standing or whatever else. If
there's someone that's unbiased that comes in, like the
Rangers, if they are. I mean, I don't know anything
for sure anymore, but I'm hoping that the truth will
come out. I really am.
JOHN: Steve ~-
O I
26
STEVE: And if we're at fault or whatever
else, well, I mean, then, that's the way it's got to
be. But so far, there were too many witnesses from
what I've talked to and so forth. I don't know. I
just don't see any agent from the ATF though that's
going to be in trouble.
JOHN: Steve, can I tell you something?
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN: The laws of this land are for innocent
citizens --
STEVE: Well, you and I know we're guilty
until proven innocent. We know that for a fact.
JOHN: Listen to me. Let me just tell you
that the laws apply to everybody. Okay. They apply to
the citizens and police as well. Okay. All right.
And these lawsuits and inquiries and things that are
goig on in this investigation is being looked at by
the world and it will be gone through with a finetooth
comb.
STEVE: Aren't you kind of bothered by that
Rodney King incident?
JOHN: Yes, I am.
STEVE: Man, I tell you what.
JOHN: I saw that video tape.
STEVE: It amazes me. It really does.
But --
27
JOHN: Who is prosecuting those people?
STEVE: But --
JOHN: Steve. Let me back up to Rodney King.
Who is prosecuting those people right now?
STEVE: I really don't know. I haven't
really followed it too close in honesty.
JOHN: The Federal Government is processing
those people. The policemen.
STEVE:' Can you tell me something. I don't
have much access to information any more. What is
Interpol? I've heard that name used and I wondered
what it was.
JOHN: It's an information exchange system
among international police agencies.
STEVE: What - I mean, international police
agencies. What is, I mean, what -- like the CIA or
someghing?
f JOHN: Scotland Yard, FBI, Germany, you know.
And all they do is exchange information.
STEVE: I see. I just heard that word used a
few times and I wasn't aware of it.
JOHN: Steve, it's 9 o'clock now, 9:15. Okay.
STEVE: Uhhuh.
JOHN: Why don't you talk to some of the
folks there and see if we can get working and we'll go
forward from today. I'm here. I'm trying to work with
28
you and if I can show them something that will keep the
-- the people on the outside are frustrated. Okay.
And if you can work with me --
STEVE: I can't understand why.
JOHN: And if you can work with me, then, you
know, I can keep things that disrupt this from
happening.
STEVE: I'm working. I'm working.
JOHN: It's been 22 days and we appreciate
your efforts. Believe me. I know we may have some
differences and maybe you doubt my sincerity but I can
tell you, I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested in
trying to help the situation out. And I mean that.
STEVE: Hey, I do believe that. I do.
JOHN: I mentioned yesterday, I've got a 6
year old that said he hasn't seen me for a while. He
I
said he forgot what I look like. But -- and that goes
for a lot of the people that are here and in there.
Okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Okay, so, want to give you some time
to get going and we'll --
STEVE: John, do you mind if I ask you a
couple of personal questions? You might not want to.
If you don't want to, it's fine.
JOHN: Hey, if I don't want to, I'll tell you
I don't want to.
JOHN: I'm Catholic.
JOHN: I sure do.
STEVE: You do?
and it made a believer out of me.
i
agnostics and all the rest but, you know
with a Catholic background not many were
from the time they were small to look at
to study it or anything, but, it's a lot
of men and opinions about God.
i JOHN: Steve, let me just tell
inot here to be converted but I'm here to
|
Okay.
5I29
i STEVE: All right. Religiously, what kind of
a background have you had? Have you had any?
STEVE: Okay, so do you think there is a God?
JOHN: I spent 13 months in Viet Nam, Steve,
STEVE: Really. Okay. I just wondered
because a lot of people out there are atheists and
but I mean,
encouraged
the Bible or
of traditions
you that I'm
help you.
STEVE: No. No. I'm not -- I know that.
Listen, you don't understand also that what my work has
been up until that Sunday is, I talk to people from all
walks of life, from everywhere. I've been - I might
not seem like it, but I've been quite a listener. If
»someone has something to say that pertains to my well-
being, my safety, my advancement, fulfillment in this
30
life and want to come, I think there is something to
come. I really do. I mean, we're just too complex of
beings to have got here through a process of evolution.
I don't have that kind of faith to buy evolution. But,
my major concern is that --
JOHN: I agree with you.
STEVE: -- I really see that these prophets
and dying and leaving a testimony, many of them
persecuted and so forth for what they had to say in
their day and their testimony has been brought down to
this final, this generation. You and I know every
generation people think they're living in the last days
and that's been going on as long as mankind has been
wondering what death is all about. But finally the
book talks about a man that comes that can't work
miracles but he can open up what the testimonies are
andémake it clear. Like a lot of pieces of a puzzle,
one big clear picture. And I believe that's here. I've
seen and watched people trying to convert controvert
the man. It's not happened but I'm concerned about you
as a person. I've talked to you eleven of you people.
I like you all. I really do. And I know that even
though with your physical eyesight and so forth you
look at this world and its makings and what's happening
and your job and your family and all the rest. I look
further, beyond that, all the time because I know that
31
any day I can answer before God. I believe there is a
God of mine, a Supreme Being and I believe there will
be a judgement. The whole system of the world, of
America that the judgement that we have, the attorneys,
the mediation, all that. That's something that's based
upon the JudaicChristian thing that goes back about
4,000 years but it goes back further because that's
what God is all about. And you and I will stand there
- I want to live forever. I'd like to see you live
forever. If you ever have the time and you read in
Isaiah 49, you'll find out if you make it, John, do you
know that your son is guaranteed eternal life? If you
read those last ten, fifteen verses of Chapter 49 of
Isaiah, Isaiah 49, you'll find that if you make it, you
do it right, your son is guaranteed, or your children.
I likethose kind of promises. God knows and sees the
innQ¢ency of children.
} JOHN: Steve. Steve, I've got my faith and
you know what, I've got faith that we're going to work
this out and we can start today and if you start
working, we'll do it.
STEVE: Well, -- John, I'm going -- I'll be
coming out. There is no question about that, but the
truth of the matter is I don't think - I mean, I'll
come out. I don't think I'll be getting a fair shake.
I'll tell the world, hey, I'm innocent. I was here to
C O
t 32
study the Bible. I was in a room from the time I heard
bullets riddling the front door area. I mean, that's
all I can be saying. I never say anybody, the truth is.
But immediately, I'm on the phone saying stop. Whoever
it is, stop; Let's talk. There's women and children.
Wayne and I both you know, you have all the tapes.
But I still believe that they'll manufacture probably a
hundred things for me --
JOHN: Steve --
STEVE: Seriously, I mean, I'm talking to you
straight right now.
JOHN: I know you are. I know you are.
You're concerned.
QTEVE: And the only thing that my innocency
one day will only be shown in the light of the
judgement of God. I'm serious. I believe that. I
I
donx think this agency, this federal agency that came
here for whatever purpose and intention, nothing is
going to happen to them. I know they want blood. I've
seen it in the eyes. I've seen it in the demeanor and
in the statements of the spokesperson for them. And
I'm afraid because you're a sister agency that somehow
or other, you're going to be involved more -- producing
evidence. Maybe even suppressing it, I don't know. I
hope not. I can't imagine that would happen but when I
heard the music last night. If you want to call it
33
music or whatever it is. And --
JOHN: Steve, let
on that point. Okay.me just stop you one second
STEVE: I hope this is being taped and I hope
you don't destroy any of the tapes. One day I'd like
to hear it all again myself
JOHN: Steve. This is evidence. Okay. And
I want to impress something else on you. Yesterday,
you worked and talked to people and got seven people
out of there. All right. Don't you think that would
give you some credit?
STEVE: I don't --
JOHN: I know how
there.hard you've been working in
STEVE: I think that that all will be passed
off and it's not a big deal
don§§ think that's going to
JOHN: Steve, you
system but it does work andanyway. I'm serious. I
be any big deal.
know, you don't trust the
STEVE: Well, I did but as time goes on --
I'm glad I told John Cox last night
living in this century at this time
even like last night. I mean, I've
yourself, well, not like yourself.-- I was glad for
and experiencing
been a person like
I don't know what
you've done. You've been involved in a lot of things
that I haven't but I've sat in a nice home and so forth
C C
34
and only looked at the TV what the news has. Is the
press going to have access? Will they have been able
to have heard the sounds that were played last night?
I wonder if Americans sitting in their nice cozy homes
know what's all going on.
JOHN: The press probably heard those sounds.
STEVE: Probably. I hope they have but maybe
not. I do know that you people, John, you people have
so controlled them beyond anything that I thought was
ever possible in America. That scares the heck out of
me for America at large. It does. I've always been
concerned because of Abraham Lincoln saying that this
country never would be taken from the outside but the
inside. Man, in his selfishness, in his innate
selfishness. You can look at the fall of the Roman
Republic, which was once a republic, became a democracy
- d§d you know that this country when it was founded
was really a republic? And now it has moved to a
democracy, ultimately socialism, tyranny. That's the
direction we're going, John. I'm sure --
JOHN: Steve, listen --
STEVE: John, do you mind if I just talk for
a little bit, unless you don't - I mean, I'm going to
get off the phone, of course. But, this is my
concerns, you know, I'm for your freedoms. I'm for you
being able to express yourself or worship or not
O O
35
worship. Or believe that there is no God or whatever
else you might be into, I mean, I'm not a person that
wants my will enforced upon another. I never have been
that way. But, I'll tell you the truth, like you and I
are talking here and I don't have any - not too much
faith anymore in this system, in this society we have
here. It was warned by God in the writings of the
Bible and by great men like Abraham Lincoln and
Jefferson, Madison, what could come of this country if
the men and women of this country weren't vigilant for
freedom. You know, government has taken control and
it's taking greater control, more freedoms are being
taken from us, you and I. Let me say, I'll probably be
in trouble for it but I believe ATP has been brought
about as an agency to take away those freedoms slowly
but surely, insidiously. And I see that's what
f
happening, John. I believe that, unless somebody --
I've got open ears. You can show me something else.
But I feel over time it's going to be to the place
where they're going to push for gun control. No one
will have any guns. I think that the founding
forefathers wanted individuals to be allowed to have
guns against the tyranny and the possible tyranny of
their own government. Just like what happened in
Europe for centuries and centuries. Well, what do you
think about that, John, what I just stated? Do you see
O I
36
that as a possibility or no or what?
JOHN: Steve, we aren't far apart On that all
but what I wanted to mention to you is that you're
going to have every opportunity to make all your
statements --
STEVE: What do you think about -- no, I
know. I don't believe that's true John. I'll tell you
right now I don't believe I will be able to, but, you
know, that's irrelevant. I told you, I'm coming out.
You know, I am. And, you know, but the things I just
said --
JOHN: When are you thinking of coming out,
Steve?
STEVE: Well, you know, after getting to work
with these people and getting at least a good majority
or a large number of them moving, that's what I'll do,
I
SO -if
J
'V JOHN: Will you continue to work on it with
me today and we can resolve it?
STEVE: Yeah, I will be but I'd sure like,
you know, I've made some statements, I've asked you
some questions and, you know, some time throughout the
conversations of the day, if you would, or if you -- I
mean, I'd like to have you to react to some of the
things I've said. Even if it's your own opinion.
JOHN: Steve, but my personal feelings aren't
C D
37
the issue here, okay. I'd tell --
STEVE: That's what I'm telling you though,
John, neither or mine. This only helps me take just
kind of a little breather or a break because, you can
tell my mouth is already dry. I'll be, I mean, I'm
telling you, you'll see in the judgement one day, I
mean, I really did talk to these people. And, for a
long, long, periods of time. And I told you again, I'm
going to be doing my work, but in honesty, I'm just
curious --
JOHN: And I'll be here.
STEVE: -- about this government of mine.
That I thought was mine, I was a part of this system,
of American freedom and the greatest nation that the
world has ever seen. But it's being brought down. I'm
concerned about that too, John. I mean, I believe my
I
eyes}are open. I think I've seen enough through life
to see a direction of this country that I really don't
like and I'm convinced that I can't do anything about
it anyway. If Revelation 18 says in the final days of
the earth's history that the merchants were the great
men of this earth and by their sorceries, they deceived
all of the earth, I believe that is a very solid
statement. I think that the evidence is there to show
that and I don't think one has to look very long and
hard to find it. I really don't. Even though yourself,
O I
38
you're in an agency that seems very honorable and I
always though it was, but to tell you the truth, I
mean, last night, it shows you something. I don't
know, it just makes you wonder. Definitely makes you
wonder.
JOHN: Steve, Steve, if I wasn't concerned
about all of you in there, I wouldn't be talking to
you. You know it and I know it. Okay. Can we start
today?
STEVE: You know, like it - I'll tell you
the truth. You know what I was concerned about
yesterday, from the time the seven people did come out,
I mean, I told you I worked hard --
QOHN: I know, I could hear you.
STEVE: -- and then all of a sudden -- still
whether they forced you to do it or whether it was your
choige, or the way you use psychology or whatever --
JOHN: Steve.
STEVE: Wait, wait. Let me just say John
that, you know, there was such a, I mean, I could
hardly talk to those people very long at all and you'd
be back on the phone. And like I told you, because I
was drawn away so frequently, they were gone. I got
back and the 30 to 40 people, half of them were gone
and the rest -- you know, they don't they get to the
place they don't want to hear me and hear what I've got
Q D
39
to say. David can open up physics and sciences and
sociology, education, all these topics out of a book
called the Bible. They're interested in that. They're
interested in being guaranteed eternal life because
whatever you people do to them and they know they're
going into the hands of a dragon. They do know that.
Revelations 13 says John sees the time of this earth's
history when all the world wonders after the beast and
worships the dragon. Everybody has got their feelings
and their opinions and -- but they don't know the mind
of God, the will of God. They dont know his will.
They don't know that in Chapter 50 of Jeremiah that
God's got a snare for Babylon and this world is going
to be taken unawares. It's going to be like in the
days of the flood. Everybody's eating and drinking,
giving/in marriage and we're all concerned about what
we sée with our physical eyesight, the carnality --
JOHN: Steve, hold on. Somebody just walked
in with a note here.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: Brad and Kevin are on a radio talk
show from their cells as we are talking right now.
STEVE aside!: Brad and Kevin are on a radio
talk show from their cells right now.
STEVE: Thanks. I'll talk to you in a
1'TlO1'¬I'1C .
JOHN: Steve. 1190.
STEVE: Thank you. Bye
JOHN: Okay. Bye.
End of tape.!
¢
I
~#
//WI I
5/55*
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #154
March 23, 1993
9:33 a.m. 7:28 p.m.
O C
Tape 154!
Phone ringing!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hello? Hello?
KAREN: Hello? Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Hello.
KAREN: Hello. Good morning. My name is
Karen. I'm calling from the "Waco Tribune" and I'm
just calling to see did you get a copy of the Waco
newspaper delivered to your home this morning?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Pardon me?
KAREN: Do you get the Waco paper?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Who is this?
Hello?
KAREN: Hello. I'm calling from the Waco
paper, the Waco newspaper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: For the "Waco4.
Trihune" or from it?
L? KAREN: From the "Waco Tribune."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No, I'm sorry,
don't think so.
KAREN: Okay. Thanks.
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
Pause!
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
Pause!
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!I
Pause!,-.
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
Pause!
Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
Pause!
Phone dialing! Phone ringing! Busy
signal! Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
John? Pause!
JOHN: Indiscernible! a little bit.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: I don'tOh, yeah?
Okay. So what's new there,
know. I was about to ask you
the same thing. How is David doing today?
0'
I;MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: He was?
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: Boy, he
talked to him about 4:30
MR. SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: - when
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Starting to lost it here
and --JOHN: PlayingHe was a very unhappy camper
Yeah.
was spinning the last time I
this morning --
He was, huh?
he was keeping you awake too.
Boy, I can hardly remember.
Not enough sleep.
the guitar and singing songs
4
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, yeah, that's true.
JOHN: He was on a roll.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, this morning it was he
that -- I talked to Livingston Pagan and he talked to
him and it was decided by Livingston he wanted to go
out --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and then I, I started talk
with of course the wife and the mother and --
JOHN: Of Livingston?
MR . SCHNEIDER: Yeah .
JOHN: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And then we had all those
problems. And from there --
JOHN: What was, what was the difficulty1
there? h
g MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, the problem was when I
was talking with Byron we had agreed on a number of
issues --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that revolved around
Livingston and some of the things he would be allowed
to do and so forth and then I get this report back that
he had showed an attitude and, and it's not at all the
person I've ever known.
JOHN: Really?
O 5
S
MR. SCHNEIDER: I've never seen him ever do
anything like that. So and then of course Byron
accused that these people didn't have freedom of choice
so -- and before that came about of - you've heard it
many times listening to the tapes, but the issue came
up that I was telling him how he speaks minimum three-
quarters of the time when I'm on the phone with him and
I -- it's very difficult to react to. And so I mean I
told him and Dick that I know he means well and so
forth but it's not helping the situation and even
though they want a million people out a year ago, I
mean --
JOHN: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I mean, it's still - it's
hard because it's a spiritual thing, for you people
it's, it's something else totally different. And, you
know; the -- the issue always gets back to the same
l
thing.
JOHN: Well, did David have the opportunity
to pray with a lot of folks today?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No. In fact, he got so mad
that because of the reaction of everything he just
basically -- I haven't even talked to him. Hours and
hours have gone by since I've -- I saw him this morning
about the time Fagan was going out.
JOHN: Um-hum.
9 Q
6
MR. SCHNEIDER: I talked to him after that.
Yvette was going to follow right after.
JOHN: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: In fact, three times I talked
to her. She was going to be on her way out almost
immediately and the mother and then the, the problem
developed with, with Byron and the communication with
Fagan. And, you know, first she let me know that we
could probably do it, it seemed like it was going to
happen and then when he was out there and then
something about his muddy shoes and that he said he
didn't want to do a damn tape, and he used that word
damn --
JOHN: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and acted like he had --
you know, that one word, all the profanity and the
att§tude. But if that -- I told him I wanted to really
1
hear what - somebody take notes, I said --
JOHN: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- tape it and play it to me
because I've never seen him like that. I don't -- I
personally can't understand that something like that
would happen with indiscernible! Pagan.
JOHN: Well, I can't tell you anything from
first-hand knowledge because --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You weren't around there.
JOHN: No. I left probably, I don't know,
9 o'clock, something like that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know --
JOHIN: -- 9:30 --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- Byron --
JOHN: -- but I heard that that's what
happened. I was talking to someone on the phone here
and, and they said the, the guy was just really upset,
was really, you know, almost belligerent would have
been a word for it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: It's hard to believe because
I've never -- honestly, the guy's not a guy given to
emotions. He's a very deep thinker. I, I -- you will
find that out, very deep thinker.
JOHN: Well, you know, normally when we ask
somebody to make a tape it's merely to make a tape so
thatgthe people on the inside know that --
' MR. SCHNEIDER: Well -- he --
JOHN: - everythings, everythings fine or
a message for his wife or a message for his mother,
that kind of thing.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, John, the reason being
is there was about four or five issues there --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- requests that he had made
and he wanted me to talk on the phone.