Cambridge Five Spy Ring Part 38

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FBI Vault

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Cambridge Five Spy Ring

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Cambridge Five Spy Ring Part 38

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49

Part

38

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~ . . tsst Famterforeipt and 1 Nov:-:stat=.a 1955 Oidll--Piwnrnrnnei tssii
;&QQ;;W?l;.m--
t»92-.|
. [Mk -I-0M.h.EY_] _.I . -_- _ ._~J-1---  . ._s -- -~ 1» it  !*- &#39; * security. We know vtat happened in the
. - --  1 ~ else o Burgess and Maclean. ltalce the~  &#39;i*" . I view that neither of these men should
1 ever have been employed in the Foreign
. I Ofce in view of the reports which were-  - forthcoming about their conduct. -I have
&#39; inquired into this matter very carefully
and have read_much about it. and it seems
T . . &#39; to me that what was known about both
&#39;1-=-&#39;-i*"-~&#39;"-" . l"" Bu ess Ind Maclcan was more than ,. _ .I.. &#39; _ I
l ._ ..-- ..-.-.~ --»--n-r--&#39;
rg &#39;
__,____.__ ;..  ... - enough to justify. not the penalty of re- ""&#39; &#39; &#39; ; signation. but the penaltyot theirexpulsion;&#39; before they had held theizrostsfor even&#39; &#39;1 | I year. Maclean&#39;s habit getting habi-
;  . tually drunk and of letting o steam in
pubs and clubs are thin s which should.not have been tolerated for one moment.
l They would not have been tolerated in
.  some pubs and clubs that I have known.
~. ivlaclean would quickly have been pt1 m H in hi Pl3°°- r..&#39;.r&#39;:r-1 i.,1..-l&#39;-&#39; gt. .111 tn -&#39;
 This country is faced with the responsi-
»  .. --  &#39; bility of looking again at the method at
-" ~ -r 3 -- ? recruitment to the Foreign Service from
, . .. ., , this numerically small circle ot people
- _ &#39;  _ coming from the public schools. From&#39; 1 , » my slight contact with the foreign embas-
- sies. I cannot say from whence the dif-
- tall ferent secretaries have come or to what
kind of school they went. and neither do
&#39; - ; I - 1 1 know what sort of background they
__ , - - __:.= t = = . had; but to my way of thinking there&#39; &#39; &#39; &#39; 3&#39; "3 is something wrong with our great public
_ at A schools. For instance, I cannot under-
stand why they do not send uiore men¢»-»- - - -&#39;l&#39;tt."
. ,, _
.._-
._....._.
, "" " into the scientic industrial olessionsi  ___u__! __ t  i" where they are so badly needeir t..s."_..-..__, ._-s,
t - - I
&#39; When these boys have gone through
" &#39; &#39; the schools and the universities. having-~:;= -1 1 §!=&#39;=§ -  received a good education in the arts and
an_ then look round !-or some-."&#39;    __ - , thing to do. do they gratify by virtue of
_ -  examinations for the vii Service or the
5 - . - I ~ ~ Foreign Service? Do they qualify on the. 1&#39;
&#39;§.&#39;."&#39;;"--&#39;7  "r  r= " basis of a desire to malre a career; be-*&#39;
4. ...._ ___,; cause of an impetus within themselves&#39;.~E*;§£i?_=.&#39;§&#39;-.  to--&#39;-do= -something " good - Tor" the__ _ ___ _ p.  country? Do thar wish to make&#39;-P 7 " ." &#39; "" " ah career {rm cmlselvesf or do
~ _ ;_.,  e, rt. = 11&#39; cy ualif - use -t want some-"l".&#39;° .Z if ..,&#39;l... thin lo-do!! tr Bflf thyey are trained, in the skills and arts and graces, they
enter the service for the sake ofesome- -
thing to do.tbe country has no use for 
them. because inevitably they will fall »
in whatever job they talze on.&#39;-""&#39;-"&#39;-- 1 5 *
If the accusations made &#39;by"my "hon. _
Friend the Member tor Coventry, Bash
n as-....-.._..,
3.. ....&#39;....-.. :.::_§.:3" .2:-..:;. ..;-- .; -I I.-»
.-.. .,:. .- .C - " f
,e_  . ¢-..
1 .-
up - -1;?-as-u-an--» -92
.-.  ...- ,_* 2515,-=* 1 13.3. l;,;~.,.
-_..,, 1,,-...--
-&#39; &#39;. -. e_...;..; e I.t;:: .
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---&#39;  &#39; &#39; "..- .&#39;- ;..: &#39;-&#39; »- I
i gr;  ;;.i&#39;.&#39;,_,-&#39;~ as-seas i-;.;&#39;i,2I..;1?,inI~&#39;f-&#39;- -- - ~&#39;*  ii; frare substantiated, there is 1otnethi;|&seri-
ously wrong with our moth dselection. recruitment. entry. otttotionand general direction. llbbrd the
Foreign Secretary. when discussing
security arrangements. refer to repom
from the ambassador downwards about -
his stall. Today the world is so locked 1
l in the conict of a cold war that even
sible contin en has to be covered. : . 8 "Y .Wile int-cstt ates the top man tn the rstplace. or is %l¢ _never_investigated7  _ "
&#39; It is all very well saying. as has been i
said today. that our liberty ls a pre-
cious thing which we must not discard
when making sureithat our freedom B
not destroyed. But, in a world where
such forces are ranged against us. can we
seriously depend on our archaic laws is .deciding whether or not we shall arrestor i
interrogate a person on suspicion!, Does §
that position hold good in modern
politics and in the atmosphere of a cold
war as we know it! "*-&#39; _.__&#39;-i--"&#39;_i&#39;-1&#39;
History can teach us some sharp and
potent lessons about what has been going
on in international modern politics since
1939. The United States have been mea-
tioned several times in this debate. Let
us take the case of Algar Hiss. He was
I rst brought to the notice oi President
Roosevelt in I939 by Adolph Berle. and
at that time President Roosevelt pooh-
poohed the idea and said that it was im-
possible. The activities of Algar Hits
were further brought to the notice ti
President Truman and the same thing
happened. But who or what was Algar
Hi? He was one of the First Secre-
taries in the American _Stat_e Departtnen_t._&#39;;
&#39;When &#39;we realise what tremendous"
power these people can wield. when
remember what happened at Yalll and
how it affected the politics of Europe and
elsewhere. especially the United States
and Britain," when we remember the
alties that Yalta imposed on the-lztlleign policies oi the Western world. and
when we realise that behind Presidctd
Roosevelt sat Algar l~lissa self-confessed
perjurer and Soviet espionage agentthat
ts a very sobering thought. &#39;--=--.@- 1":-is
We do not desire }-&#39;lcCarthyism&#39;in sh;
country. But, in defence of our liberties
and our people. we have the right to ask
for an inquiry into the Forei n Oice andour security services and the way they
work. I do not think we can depend any
longer upon the established system and _
I ~_--s ll j
_ _ _,....._. ___ .. _ .. ._.-. .-e..----:~ --
iiviiéws» 3""i""fr9&#39;.i3t:-"..&#39;~.t?.*&#39;¢"1"""" e &#39;7?
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1
, _ .,.  . . . . ,. . i.  .&#39; - - __ &#39;  - ..- .. ..- - I -o 4&#39;9 ._h - -H.-.1 _;==~.---- , ._ ---- .------.-..- -__ _»---_---- "g ,&#39; "  ,¬,..T&#39;?_ _ &#39;.__r&#39;.a.w_=a::&#39;;-rim?-i.-&#39;e.~I*I--m1InIIlw~v&#39;I=5* &#39; __ . .l_- W?&#39;.&#39;.."*&#39;<  5" ".==_"f_;;:f&#39;Q&#39;jl :9-:&#39;T&#39;T1 1:1» ---,1. ._ . - - 9 &#39;-... .. ._-.. ..t 4. e........ . -- -&#39;-:- - I -- 7- =-=-- -."--sf "_&#39;*_ &#39; " -f __ at . , . -- -_. -3» ..&#39;|.,.. _, . .._ 7 &#39;1&#39; -
_ .,I

g r. I 1 . 7 so - I P....  ._ _ »..:___.-..."_ - -:-  I _ _: _ "_._-.. r-.... ..., ... . &#39; - » &#39; 1 - 1 . . &#39;r - _-. _ .aIl-,i_F ~q ..-.,...-.--r F
rs; -ffllllffareigirt ies, r_ NOVEMBER toss 0irie&#39;di§¢-.~i»=~¢~e_I.- I555;
he methods we have known. One can
race back to I951. when the Burgess andivtaclean -ease rst broke. a period of
ghree or four years when the matter waspotted down. Nothing was -heard about&#39;1 until the Petrov trial in Australia. and
ne begins to wonder why this matter was
ot dealt with in the meantimeon: a>&#39;-&#39;.-F Inquiries may have been conducted by
°"°°"Ii §5"°i" &#39;:."*"ttt"*>e n con uct y t e . . angiiited States. Although the advice of[Adolph Berle was not t_al:en. they may
-5..-3.-.3 "ill ill.-l,i_.»,§.§°i$ilvlaclean case to the light of day. and let
no hon. Member imagine that Petrov wasinot a bgave mini Tl:e_&oviet Q5ptOftl§_:8csystem oes no orge t enemies.[clearest example I can give_to_the llouseis that oi tne murder or irotsity in
Mexico. After fteen years of patientgaiting on their plart a rnariserzant  hisouse. an emp oyee te vietespionage system. took a piclraite andmurdered Trotsky- i . "-. . 1 &#39;-
Other &#39;murders&#39; have talten &#39; place
throughout Europe. because we are
dealing with a Government which does
not recognise the sanctity of human life
or the human soul. a Government which
&#39; has condemned people to death. not byi hundreds but by millions. I Government
which has forced through policies thatihave resulted in the death of millions.1 That is the kind of thing with which we
_ are laoe-:l in die world sway. That is why&#39; I_cannot speak too strongly in condemna-tion  the Foreign Oflice and theiru handling Of IlliS ltl. 1.!?! . Y&#39;._~.&#39;1&#39;l.&#39;..
lWhoever is covering upcwhom and on
what pretexh whether _-cause oi the
membership of a circle or a club. -or
because of good fellowship or whatever
h may be. they must think again and
think quickly. Make no mistake about
it. the Soviet protects those it values._&#39;
Although my right hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Lewishani. South  Mr. H.
Morrison! read out ti letter from a friend
of his&#39;who dined with Burgess and
Maclean the night before they escaped
and who at thattime had no idea. nor
was he given any idea, that Maclean was
lotng to escape. this escape had been
engineered for at least a month in
|d92&#39;iI1=-_. ll a_man who is valuable to
t the Soviet services __might tall; and give 1| DJ &#39;  &#39; --
.___,,% ___,,_-  _  .......--... 1 -.. ""&#39;¢"&#39; --_ ~-~_.-.- _-T-» - - .-__----&#39; ."&#39;=~&#39;..-&#39;-»*--."--~=~- ~.»-+1-. "8&#39;? tam-t-=t&#39;==  -s »--~-we-&#39;-as--*=.*-=*»e.-=*-= -~ J.-.e.&#39;"~ 2 &#39;
_ I I
.7. -"7 ;."&#39; "7.-.-*"7*".-""- &#39;~-F  . """.""&#39;°"-people away. he is taken qlre  andgot out ot the county. This t.l_iing did_
not just happen in a ay. That iswhere
our security services were wrong. The;
escape must have taken at least a month
to organise. =  sit. - =:-  --~1:..t,
L Mr. Daincs: Surely my hon. Friend
would agree that before Maclean went
he would have to get permission from
the Party in order to make sure that heW- -.-.&#39;. ", _._ ..t ca.  L i. .1 -.&#39;.- s -
, . . . . ..i I ..__  _,. - 1 -.... - -*_-_<-.;r&#39;,.&#39; i, -__ ,.._ ___-_._. ! .___. ._;._,. _. ___.-&#39; ....._~-.&#39;_&#39;....~.-i.... ..+.1-e ----4-----&#39;-----ti"5-&#39;-&#39;--13" .  i -I» &#39; t"_,»" :- &#39;, _ .
-I ;-,.~,;_~_,, _ :1:
r . . a .. .._.  .. ,1 _.
_ V _ _ 0.4~i H _92-.-Q V "ob
&#39;..;:;.;&#39;: E
... II... ---.r2&#39;9£"_ &#39; :~.""?
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would gain entry into Czechoslovakia G -**.-7"?-"&#39; P""
R ussia? 7 -_,+.-.
. . 4.--  ,..-- ».-~-- - a.--- .0,---I_u_,&#39;.-;_L~. :1._..-._...-..
Mr. Tomneyr &#39;l"h&#39;at is right&#39;E"ao_ _tlte_
pe was not organised overnight, l1__mist have been organised one or tvitiinths in advarioe._ -_ &#39; -&#39; 4
I I have seen the same pattern repeated
all over the world. I was in Japan with
_th_e_ h_on. _ Member for f3l&#39;tli&#39;l3Ill_&#39;  Mr.-
Nicholson! at this time last year. - We
saw a strike of municipal employees. _l"
watched them march along the streets.
and I saw the same technique used there
as in Western capitalsthe cheer leaders;
the washes going along ; the loiidspealtz
vans; the hand at the assembly point:
the full battery of loudspeakers: the ap
and bunting. I have known of the.
valuable work done by labour attaches
in that part of the world because they
understand the forces at wotk.;»,_ -.&#39;;-@115;
= The labour attaches. introduced
the late Mr. Ernest Bevin. were probably. ;I 0-.
, _&#39;, ,¬~i ...
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the last and best innovation of the~ &#39;
Foreign,0llice reform in I941. I should
iiice to see them established in all our
embassies. If we are to have a balanced
view about the forces with which we must_
contend. it is essential that we consider
statements of persons who ltnow
point of view of the man-in-the-streetOtherwise we shall not obtain a propr;-"
assessment of what is going on In my
view. it is absolutely essential that the
Foreign Olliee consider this. It should
establish labour attaches in every capital;
That is an urgent andabsolute neees;
sity; not just in order to study la&#39;bo_ut&#39;
problems or give advice about industrial
problems. but in order to lteep a tnattttg
of-fact workaday eye on the world at
Inge» _&#39;,  3&#39; . &#39;_ L __. ;:.....;- r-.-&#39;2&#39;_-_n"*&#39;_. iy 1-"P L7,. ...i .,a aliu i..c t.:-aw
I now want to say a word or two about
Burgess and Maclean and their conductin the Foreign Ollioe. .1 am not
to take part in any witch-hunting. ut
will_give_the Under-Secretary, if he will&#39;  _ a-Jreg-
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r J l  *tsss Porn-tn 1-gftfll aye? &#39;1 No92&#39;t:!uaEtt&#39;r9ss omeriitr-§r!i¢&#39;pp¢.iiii-i&#39;é¢ 155;.
&#39; ll-la. 1&#39;om~&#39;t:r.] - -&#39;1 =5 ---&#39;_&#39;-"-&#39; =i&#39;l"=&#39;
see me privately. the names and soureu
where I pot my information. My rst
ouestion is this: is it or is it not the tact
that. on the rst day when htaclean
entered the Foreign Office. he declared
to a colleague that he was a member ot
the Communist Party?  My second ques-
tion is this: why have M.I.5 not yet inter-
viewed members ol the Washington stall
of the Foreipn Olce who were directlassociated with Burgess and Mat&#39;le_at:|¥
Why have they not been interviewed?
[An Hora. Mei-iasa: fA.rtd gr-illedfj
_- The third point, and on this -I am
prepared to give names and dates if
necessary. is that I have always taken the
view that a secret service should be abso-
lutely secret and that most of its members
should not be lznown to each other. ,&#39;I&#39;o
be successful. it has to work Ln an atmo-sphere of reat secrecy. I do not know,
and the pu lie at large do not know. how
the members of M.l.5 are recruited,
whether they are more military or more
intelligence. whether they are ex-police.
men or retired generals. but. if they are;
h  1| do__, &#39;_.__ _, ..,. .. -.. .r...
" In the circumstances of the ideological
war with which we are now dealing. we
want a new type of man. the type of man
who -understands the prin-:rples&#39; and
ideology of Marxism, a_ man who&#39;can
interpret and read the minds of the men
with whom he has to deal. When Petrow
nally defected. the man with him was
a_ member of the Australian Secret Ser-
vice. who had worked tor two _years totel the desired result--and got -st. Thatwhy I want to know more about _M.l.5.
_ I talze the view that this service would be
better vested in a special branch or super-
special branch 0! Scotland Yard. !c.an%
for the life of me see how any Depart-.
men! in hitehall can use its own security
forces which are attached to each par-
-ticular De &#39; inent. It is tantam u _ _ part o nt to
Qaytrtg that each atomic plant in this
country shall have one security man in
each department, all _perbaps oonictinall having different friendships and loyal:ties. I take the view that this job should
be a professional job. that the pay and
pensions should be adequate. and that the
stall should be recruited from the best
type of man available; - &#39;-&#39;- ir-.~- v.-&#39;.-- rt
- niir Service is supposed tobe ieereri
I travelled baclr trom Thailand last year
by air. and we had to stay in Rome over-
night. On the same plane was a man
, it n s .". &#39; 7 t . &#39;who had been-to emi. &#39; He "Will,-IV
general manager in London of a largr
mercantile and commercial bank. I lnol -
nothin at all about mercantile and oom-mercial banking. hut I struclc up I
acquaintance with him and I had a long
talk "with him while ying hall-way
across the world. When we stayed is
Rome, at the breakfast table next morn-
inc. he mid The man at the neitttableisitt.l.$." &#39; How on earth do you know?!
I aslted_._ I Because he tod .me_," its
&#39;.°P°d_-.:l;,.i:;£-: .&#39;:.-t-&#39; i."i.&#39;:_,it&#39;-ii :1&#39;,tlc-LI.&#39;
It t]tat&#39;is so-and this information cal
be checked, because the details of theifht can be checl:ed-it is stupid police
Io ly. Let us make no mistake about i.Ottr military destina is tied up with
N.A.T.0.. and the nitcd States is the
strongest and most permanent rnembcrd
}-&#39;.A.i.0. . The Burgess .ano&#39; ivtacieii
issue has made a tremendous impact cl
the United States security service. Unless
we are prepared to put our house in much
better order than is envisaged by t
Foreign Secretary, I am alt-aid that our§:l92ll&#39;llCy from nov-"_onv.:ill not be_r_iery. PW5 .. .&#39;;.r§&#39;;:&#39;:-ti ,9"-&#39;-:::F_! .=-t:."<.iri§-;&#39;_.t!&#39;7 .
55$ pj3f_§.. 1.:-." r:".&#39;..".i:&#39; t.&#39;_I&#39;i§ij-&#39;-f_ grrI&#39;-&#39;.&#39;"_
Mr. Peter Ratrllnson  Epsom!? I hate
been -chiey impressed in this debits-t
apart [tom the length of the speeches, by _
the loyalty. which l have always heard 4
and read about previrmsly. of political
chiefs to the Service they represent or the
Departtrient to which they are responsible.
The loyalty which they have shown. 1
tributes to which I have listened to has &#39;
today for the rst tims has impressed
although I well appreciate the constitu-
tional position ot the Minister,.who-IE
t.==1><>!>.==7.l.t. to 1l== !>s1>u."====.7=t.7-.&#39;=.&#39;-1"...-L-.~=&#39;.7
", I have wondered sometimes if some rl
the more junior civil sen-antsnot the
heads of Departments. with whom I bald
no acquaintance whatsoever-who make -
criticisms of their political chiefs should.
not sometimes take a lesson from their
political chiefs who.have to island has
and answer for some of their misdoings.
No one in thiseuse desires that there
should be any witch-hunting jn this,
matter, _As has been said by ma _
speakers, no one supports the Jtind cl;
system which is found in other countries-=_
under which individuals can be_han-id
and bullied by committees set up ?_
investigate their behaviour ; but the ran!--
cations of a conspiracy are extremely;- . i--_--I
--_..- --- eh --_  ----, 3 ;_,_;__&#39;-~.,..&#39; &#39;1-,; - "rs.Til it£:Ti4a&#39;:&#39;3!Pe--#7-¬<ie&#39;?"*.Til&351*&#39;*7*_§~"°_¥"fT c-&#39;- o c  7  "+i .- -
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dittienlt to trace. They might range
throughout the whole body t>=>11w=-- ---»-. -
Therefore, there ntust be a suicietgt,,-ggngibie and proper ii¬&#39;>ii§ii.iti into the
§bacltground of l-1109! P¢l&#39;505 W310 hfTundertalten the Goyernmetrtsi setrgtce.&#39; There must be-and was g a to ea_ri the Foreign Secretary say so-these post- tive checks. but I wonder whether. tn thepositive checks that are now rnadc. whenI inquiries are t&#39;na_de about oeréain pzoplcsanswers in _wrtting are o tame . ori whether they _are {surely oral. int isl something which. feel sure, would add
! turther to the investigations which
3 be made into a_person&#39;s background. &#39;;Ii - We cannot escape the obvious conclu-
sion that this is a story  incompetence.
The law has been mentioned on several
occasions. and it has been stated that
there is no law by which these people&#39; could have been prevented from leaving
the coutttry. It was said by the hon.I Member tor Coventry. East  Mr. Cross-man! that there was no law to preventthem leaving the ports. &#39;92ivh"y", was thereno guard on the Forts? it really
seriously suggested. i somebody had been
uarding the ports. had been looking outfor these peo le and had been warnedthat they might take it into their heads
to try to escape. that when they arrivedat Southampton to board the packet torSL Malo and were apéaroac ed by ,1
security otiicer and aslte their business.
they would have been able to march ona.-,.-.| --.s -__:r -..,-_. a- s:-. aa__s.. a.,...:_-I UUCIU IIIU Iwdll I I, IU D1. IVIGIU. IIGVIIIK
informed the security oicer that that was
what they intended to tlo&#39;!-_-f_¥&#39;__§- _~_- -&#39;- ~
. ls it seriously suggested that no pretextcould have been made whereby these
ple could have been taken aclr toEihdon and have been required to answettyluestions on certain matters of which. by
t eir ight. they had shown they were
guilty. and which we now ltnow to be
treasonable acttvtttes! Surely. the techni-
cality of arrest. mentioned by my right
-hon. Friend. is not in this case a real
answer. The real answer was that no one
thought that these men were going to ee.
it was thought that security had been such
that these men were not aware of what
was happening. It was a grave story of
&#39;!°P.P°&#39;°"°F.-_
Mr. Spelt": Will my hon. Friend allow
me! ls it not the case that only one of
Lhese individuals was s1.Isp-4.. and that the
other was not under investigation at all?_
rt ts s. Y-&#39;3-.~t-sit?-3. -._, - I ..-.u--"&#39;--_&#39;--t.--J&#39;"-1:»
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Mr. Ravrlinson: My point is that. ltt
these circumstances. the ports should have
been watched. II it was thought that
Qese people might ee. 5.! they 9.1%
ltnown to have had some association,
these steps should have been taken. 12;,-;,
-~ Mr. Dalnes: Would not the host;
Gentleman agree that. as the interrogation
had been ordered by the Foreign Secre-
 even the tact of applying for a week-
end pass was suspicious and should have
sounded lb tlttIttt?_~,__,,.-. ", gr 5;, mm
Mr. Rawlinson: I agree to this extent}
If there _had been this thorough investigi.
tron and one had eventually reached the
conclusion that this man out of some
6.000 should be investigated, then not tohave taken the proper and sensible pre-
autions _seems_to be an incredible pteoa
°! bunllll  .rrr.:--res-.r. &#39;.m.:r1qt:&#39; ts.e
-- It is quite clear. from what has beesi
said by some people who seemed to know
them or their acquaintances well. that
these two persons were people who must
at all times have been an extreme risk;
Apparently. they had chips on their
shoulders oi various kinds which one
would have thought straightaway wouldairy: led their superiprs to suspect thatey were persons w o were not pror suitable to hold such responsible
Our good fortune has been that in the
immediate past we have not had -personswho have been in control of various pub-
lic matters. or in responsible positions,
whose loyalties have not got across the
frontiers. My right hon. Fnend the Secre-
tary of State said that since I689 and the
wars of religion there have been no soclt
circumstances: but in fact there have
been. In the history of our relations with
Ireland there _were persons such ill
Erskine Childcrs. There always ltavl
been. and always will be. people whose
loyalties conict. who do not put patriot-
ism as the highest ol loyalties. In this
House it  wrong to suggest that;
because it is only a new phenomena.
people might in fact be putting disloyalty
ahead ol patriotism. and that the security
people were not in fact aware ottlae
matter...... .._ .._} &#39;-&#39;.  &#39;... :rY."I 1-..:
: Then alter the ight comes the story.
which has been adquately dealt with. oithe information which was being an;Elied. It seems to me that what must
&#39;dden is the source of the information
or knowledge about what the Government
may know of Burgess and Maclean-that
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"4&#39;-I559 Former Foreign om" 1 NOVEM
" [ML R»92Wl.lN5ON.] &#39; """&#39;-&#39; *---,""- __
is, of course. vitally importaitti-but notthe extent. Surely. it inevitably we oom-
prornised the source by revealt.-2" the er.tent. that would be dangerous; but what
danger was there in telling the House or
the country immediately after the ightall the matters that have now beett_told
ussovcry tnuehtaterotn &#39;-&#39; -.&#39; 1:
The inadequacy of the White Paperhas
llso been discussed. Mention has been
made ol how in ragra h 3 ittalks aboutMaclean being ti: heacrof the American
Department and says that it does not deal
with major obierfs of Anglo-American
relations. Paragraph ll says that one
explanation may be that-htaclean ob-
served that he was no longer receiving
certain types at secret papers:-= P" :I_&#39;- -
once again. to hon. .92-ten-&#39;=
sides of the House and to
the people in the clubs and pubs that here
there has been some covering up bbureaucracy. The story has been heard:and read of. of Departments where the
bureaucrats have attempted to cover
up after initial mistakes have been
made. and it has been suggested that there
is a feeling among the people who are
in the same Service that they must assist
those who have made the errm to prevent
them being entirely shown up. _; -__~ _
. I agree that we cannot have. and would
not want to have. in this country a secret
service having any executive power. It
must rest upon the criminal law and theexecutive power of the Felice. ll we had
a secret service which ad full executive
power obviously it would degenerate into
something which nobody in this country
would want. Security is the real part of
the problem. and this is a matter in
security was bad. I have listened to what
most hon. Members have said about the
Foreign Service and these people who are
members of it. 1 do not agree with much
that has been-said.-~ .;&#39;.. ;. .
-zit appears to me that security-is-the
failure here. tn security it is not so much
money-or measures that matter. WhatIt eppeers.
hers on both->_ .. , on-or.-.p BER 195$ Oiddls Dlsirppenralicl I560
Epsom  Mr. Rawlinson! said 1ater&#39;stit.hts ich I did agree. I thou ht that thestatement by the Foreign Eecretaty onthe rights of a lesson under suspicionwas much preferahle to the opening state- _
ments in the speech of the hon. Member.-
I-lowever, my remarks will be concerned
not with the security side ofthe matter .
but with the question of the ncrsonne! L
with whom we are concerned in thef
!_°&#39;=it== °**i°=~.;&#39;;i.__ ;-#1, 12&#39; &:_:&#39;:i;-:i IIt has already been suggested that the .;
Foreign Otee ought to be grouped to-=gether with the Civil Service as ts whole; 1
As a matter of principle. I am inclined to i
agree with that suggestion. I taltc_roughly&#39; 
the same line about the wartime reforms *as that taken by my hon.» Friend the Men!-&#39;her for Coventry. East  Mr. Crossn1an!.&#39; !!n prineiplc.&#39;it ., :&#39; sound idea that the ;
Foreign Service should be part of theCivil Service as a whole: but there will &#39;
be practical difficulties, One of 11-pg dii. f
cttlties which has faced the Civil Sen-ice &#39;5
as a whole in recent years has been that E
of getting the right people for the admits-&#39; &#39;
istrative class. which corresponds to the
branch in the Foreign Ser92&#39;ioe_-Brandi ~,A--to which Maclean belonged. The §situation has already been stated by the
Civil Qrviee Comrniséoncrs to be one of
considerable difficulty. but if l can belics;e&#39; l
recent reports it has this year become ex- &#39;
tremel bad. so bad that the number ofcandicitites acceptable has not been equal ito the number of vacancies._!__!. 3&#39;: g_ yd
I In the Foreign Sen&#39;ice.&#39;~on the other
hand. il one can take the evidence of an
article in the Observer esterday. there gseem to have been this &#39; year "quite &#39;
sufficient candidates for the vacancies.
Even if one slcirns away half oi them
with the rst qualifying examination and &#39;
assumes that they were not serious candi-_
dates, there were still ample to ll the, tvacancies. II we merge the Foreign Scr.-&#39;,
vice with the Chi! &rt-ice as e whole. let -
Its make no mistalte that very shortly we
shall run into an acute problem of stalling
theupper branches oftheforeignService. -

~ .I _ _ _ , , _ ____ .s._ . V .., F"&#39;&#39;""&#39;--~---&#39;--~-u-- I-*.-I--..-...-s....__i.. . . - J . _ . i It > 
&#39; -. snmvtie I J, .....__,,. _ .. .._. ., ...1- 6 ..a; __._.-_-,-__ . i ...a4...|._-,,s.&#39;rs.--J-. 1-: &#39;--   &#39;-1&#39; &#39; - ~ " 1&#39; 
"1551 former I-bcreign Oicd 7 NOVEM D 0 7
Ito the rst division of the Civil Service.
There is ditlicult in attracting all theotlicers we need ibr the Armed Services.
5There is ditliculty in stalling the local
&#39;-government services. We cannot getsanitary inspectors. and we cannot getthe seetialists such as tax inspectors orfthe ivil Sen-ice. because industry and
gCOII1l1lCtC¬ are booming and otlering far
i better prospects. That is the difficultyGbehind the whole question of stalling;
That will be immensely emphasised for
lthe Foreign Service once we link the
l Foreign Service with the Civil Service I8pa whole.  9 .1.-.-.-: .--..~-.&#39; . -.- . - , .. . ,. . .
What I wanted to talk about was notl so much that general problem which the
- public services in general are facing as
a result of the present economic siiua-_tion, but rather the intake of the uphper
branch of the Foreign Service. - _ ey
are. of course. university recruits likeI those for the t&#39;Sl division of the Civil
&#39; Service. Litre my hon. Friend the Mem-I ber for Coventry. East 1 was struck by
the articles that appeared recently in the
Manchester Guardian." One of the
points they made was the extreme variety
of interests for the Foreign Service now.
They used a phrase like Atoms. oil.international gay-ments to illustrate the
new and hig ly technical interests that
the Service now has to deal with. Again.
like my hon. Friend the Member for
Coventry, East, I was struck by the fact
that the reforms of the war years haddestroyed a number of sources of expert
knowledge without- replacing e t em
properly.- But. in general. we have been
producing rather more of these experts
in languages and the affairs of particular
regions. and these experts in matters of
atoms. oil and international payments.
than we formerly did.&#39; Since the war
the universities have given tar more
attention to these things. with the estab-&#39;
lishment and development of the schools
of African and Oriental languages-at
London iU_nivet&#39;sity. For instanceand
more attention to the Slav languages and
cultures elsewhere. We have far more
people who can be considered as replace-
ments than we had formerly. -  1-" -
- There ts. however. very little sign that
the Foreign Otce has been making use
of  new sources. Since the war
recniitment to Branch A seems to have
be-en exactly of the sort that would justify
the accusations of inbreeding and so on
ll D s  l
_e._.. V--.7?-. ----&#39;---- - _-_-" P;-_*""&#39;-&#39;_1___ » - ""-"-&#39;-#-  . -.  . " __ . .. ......._.a;..s..s.is.i...sé.s;.»-..,.&#39;-.;-i.i-is-mi:-i-a~_»." - - ~ -&#39; I -&#39; &#39; -- ~ -1 it &#39; -- &#39;-.......-&#39; -0--s---&#39; u_- 4;...-a
g .1»
BER I955 oiii.=.&#39;.iti_......;im..i»..=¢ "&#39;i3&#39;sg.
that are currently being made. [have not
the gures for this year, but from 194$to l954-12> to and including last year:rnt_alce_-42 _appointments were made to
the senior division of the Foreign Serv_ice.,
Leaving aside gures and turning to per; -
centages. I nd that 77 per cent. of those -- --
appointments were to graduates _r-I
Oxford or Cambridge; 5 per cent. to
graduates of London ; S pcr_cent. to Scot; gtish graduates; 1 per cent; to graduates " V
of all provincial universities; a very.
small percentage to graduates of unt-
versities outside this isl:ind-Ireland &#39;
and New Zealand, for instance-and I
per cent. to candidates who had no uni-
versity education at all. __;_ 1",; ,__ ,_;_,_q-,. - _:_ ,7.-
_ Mr. Godlrey Nicholson  Farnham!f ToRzesent a fair picture. perhaps the hon.
ember would give similar figures of the
.&#39;___ i , -. L _&#39;.  .,.;u}a&#39;..g
"Mr.&#39; Maclhcrson s That &#39; point
made previously. and the loint_Under&#39;-
Secretary answered it in a way which
completely destroyed his own case. He
said that the high Oxford and Cambridge
gures reected the high number of applig
cants from those universities. but thegures be gave for 1954 goved exactlythe opposite. In 1954. of vacancies in
the senior branch. 28 were lled -by
Oiiford and Cambridge graduates. The
hon. Gentleman stated that there were
287 applicants. of whom 221 came from
Oxford and Catpbridge; Now. 22! is not
to 287 as 28 isto 30butas23 istollx
In other words. the proportion of Oxford
and Cambridge appointments in the one
year for which we have gures was verymuch greateethan the proportion oi _ __
Oxford and Cambridge a p icants. Ithink that that answers the hon. Metnbctf
; C F=tt1h=m.,.. ,,  ;-,,.,=_,.&#39;;,."._;-, ,9; :-
_ I mention those gures because they
give some shadow of backing to the sug-
gestion that the Foreign Office is ti kind
or club. that there is a certain exclusive: -,,_ ,,,,.
ncss about iL After passing through _l
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[Ml M1*°P1""-35°"-1 "-""-"".*r": an Izrtl.of loyalty to the club from time to time
to put it mildly. becoming an obstacle
_ to one&#39;s greater loyalties. _-I _r;_;, .-_;-,;;g_-_;
--I must say that I do not think it at all
likely that this intake reects in anyserious wayethe intellectual reguirernentsof the Foreign Oflice. I s ould not
imagine that there is all that difference.
intellectually. between the products of
Q:-zlord and Cambridge on one hand and
those of London University and the pro-
vincial and Scottish universities on theother. Nor would anyone suggest thatthere is any ground for thin "ing that
there is any wide divergence in the moral
qualities and characters of the graduates.
But. despite the fact that recruitment in
farmed out to the Civil Service Selection
Boardas itshould bethere is still
far too narrow a range of intake. That
must be bad for the Service and
have played some part in creating some
of the diiculties to which we have _been
addressing ourselves this afternoott._ ;_-; -;_
&#39; During the period from I945 to I954
to which I have referred. there has been
a great inux of people from the elemen-
tary schools. and the maintained second-
ary schools coming under the public
authorities, into the universities generally
-but- mainly into the _provincial and
Scottish universities. In spite of that huge
inux. the high gures for Oxford and
Cambridge have continued. No sign of
it has been reected in the appointments
to the Foreign Oilice. I regret this. I
think that it is one of the things that
make i for an inquiry into the
methods of appointment. the sources of
appointment and. indeed. -into the
methods »ot&#39; training after I man ha!
entered the foreign service. »_- -».. &#39;».&#39;.i-F3--&#39;
t n Iltb l&#39;92ruinu: Anna &#39;1-us In vlah-1;_.- ---- 1.----wt" 92zvu1|§:92JlJ eu &#39;v&#39;u.us.s.| I
have referred. the Joint Under-Secretary
seemed to be rather complacent and said
that he was quite sure that the best abdi-dates were obtained. . .1 suggest very
strongly that. however good the present
candidates -are. the Service would be
improved as a whole it they came trom
more varied -sources. had more varied
experience. were of more varied types and
had more varied backgrounds. The hon.
Gentleman said that there was no n@
to widen thesource of recruitment. _l
doubt it. I think an inquiry might well
look into the possibility of widening the
IOUIOCSOI recruitment._._:._. _g.-u&#39;:,_;_,j,__,= ,1.A unto t _"&#39; T. e -. .,.___-1-. -. ,.. r 0 _V__-3
9- We have to remember that the realityat some of the popular feeling aboutthese things lies n the fact that .it ti
popular feeling. It people think that th:
people in the  Foreign Service spend I
I01 of time drinking cocktails and that
sort of thing. and are the type to Whotl
this comes naturally because of their
social background. the habit is developed
of thinking of diplomats," and d the
foreign Qice generally. as kin" ratherdifferent from the rest of the people._That
la rather unhealthy. If there were two
universities dominating the intake into
the Foreign Service, I would far ratha
they were Liverpool and Bristol. for
s*=mP.i@- ti-=1?-..°*.i=:&#39;§..=&#39;2*i 5&#39;1;="&#39;,P.£isi.==-.1.
" Admirable institutions though they&#39;are,
of our I6 or I7 universities Oxford and
Cambridge are the two which, to tht
ordinary man in the street, are a little
more distant and represent i life rather
different from his own-rnuch more than
do the provincial universities. There ll
undoubtedly a great dul of loose talk
about the way Il&#39;l which diplomats live;
but there is a slrong_case for trying posié
tiveiy to improve the understanding tl
diplomats by the peo le in general and dthe people in gneral by diplomats.long as we a ere to the presentvery
narrow intake. there are potential dii-
culties. In addition, we are losing an
immense amount. The wider our net it
east-l do not think that it is necessarily
a matter of democratisation. which the
hon. Member for Coventry, East. was
talking aboutprovided we keep to the
epprovw standards. the more varietyind
the better and stronger as a whole will
be the Service that we shall build up. J11
Ju 4-==.u.tr. rt: vf-:1]: £1-alts" lat"-5 .e::o;t-it
7- pm. " l&#39;.J";;.:.&#39;!  !L!.&#39;t&#39; lira. &#39;e&#39;.,4_-,t_;!L &#39;!_
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson  Farnl:am!:;
Tue hon. iviember for tiriing and Falkirk
Burghs  Mr. Malcolm Maclherson! made
an exceedingly thoughtful speech, with
much ol which I am in full agreement.
He said that thewiderournetiseastthe
latter service ave would get. Bin I reach
ditlerent conclusions from those that he
reached. For instance. I am quite certain
that the Foreign Oiée is making every
etlort to cast its net wider. Then is the
hon. Gentleman really mying that t...he_
Civil Service Commissioners. are activelygrejudiced in favour of Oxford and Cant-ridge? .I know that he is not saying_that. to 11¢ llql not trouble to deny at.
_ "I  _ Jtu_.t _
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5&#39;65 Farmer Fdreign  , NC EM BER I951 Oir.-lal: &#39; sappedrdlml I 1
III sure that he would not dream ol say-ing 60.. ll one admits that only educa-gonal examinations and persona q9=iI-ations are taken into consideration. ti one
admits that examinations fire /conductedIairgy. and ellorts are be_ing_ constantlyrt e to interest the provincial universi-es, I do not think that the burden of his;$ars= is iv. 1===*t:.=:.*1s ."&#39;a.l=.=..i.&#39;..<?*.". PP
 With regard to Oxford and CtimbridgiI do not know exactly the pf%|JOtl.lOIt$.but the vast majority of the un ergradu-
sates of those universities are maintained
;by grants from Government or public
rhodies. My exmrienee d the Diplomats
&#39;Service is not extensive. but I certainlyiltnow a number of its members.  List
year. I went with a_Parliamentary delega-
tion to the Far East and saw a great deal
of three Embassies in Tokyo, Bangkok
and Rangoon. I was deeply struck-andI I am very_glad_ to have an opportunity ofaying t is tribute-by the exceedinglyhigh standard of integrated etlictency
typical of each of those three Missions.
and I was immensely struck by the wide
variety of social background of the mem-
bers of those Missions. I am talking not
T only about the senior branch. I could
not have been more favourably impressed
than I was.  _-.._.. -   W...
_ My opinion was backed up in each
OI those three capitals when I talked I0
English businessmen and British citizens
resident there. All of them said that the
foreign nationals there were constantly
expressing envy oi our Foreign
and saying that they wished their mis-
sions were as etlicient and as representa-
tive. &#39; I am sorry that this debate has so
much taken the tone of an attaelt on the
Foreign Service-. We must avoid coni-
"i°_°.&#39;.9i_&#39; .*"-."-...";&#39;.I&#39; I  t...&#39;.&#39;.:.
Mr. Malcolm hIacPhetsoni&#39;I am sure
that the hon. Member will not take it
that I am attacking the Foreign Service.
tI am trying to suggcst_how_ we can im-
prove it._ We are continually doing that
tn public life in this country. without
necessarily attacking something which we
want to improve. It is not simply a
matter of the social background when one
talks about Oxford and Cambridge. 01¢
though that is important. I thinlt that theprogortion of maintained scholars is
pro ably less at these two institutions
than the hon. Member thinks. Apart
from social questions. there is the purely
ti onIntellectual question of people coming
trom the same kind of intellectual chan-
itel. These two universities are like each
other and ditterent from the universities
of Leeds or Glasgow. The channel they
come from is the same kind intellectually.apart altogether from the social side. -;,_  &#39; &#39;f- |&#39;Ii,"" f "TI.  L_"..U&#39;-&#39;
Mr. Nicholson : The hon. Gentleman B
very disarming. I was not accusing hint
of making an unfair or unreasonable
attack. I was thinking of the speech
made by the hon. Member for Coventry,East  Mr. Crossmang. which I regardedas most Illliltllllilli. do not want to beled away by e hon. Gentleman into the
uesiion oi intellectual channels. l thin:aiat everyone bears the stam of the in-stitution at which he was ¢tiitCatt:tI. btii
I think that social background is perhaps
one of the most important things. _ " &#39;.&#39;_-&#39;,§j
&#39; I was saying that I believe that lt"&#39;li_
the experience of hon. Members in this
I-louse that wherever they go. or almost
everywhere they go, they nd that the
British Mission in a foreign capital has
the highest reputation of any Mission.
it is s great pity. as i have said. thatthisddebate has taken that particulartren .  &#39;  .&#39; 1&#39;  &#39;-Bur !IJ!_!.1 -- .7-i- Fir -. .4; -Q-92-
-&#39; While we must avoid complacency, It
is not only unjust and unfair but short-&#39;
sighted and inimical to the best interests
of this country it it goes out to the world
that the House of Commons has spent
the best partot a day in attacking Q
service that is the envy of every other
nation in the world. There havecertainly
been thcse_inistakes&#39;over tviactean andBurgess, but the fact remains-and I s_ay
it categoricallythat our Forei n Service"is varied in its personnel. is democratic
in the sense that tn all ranks its members
are drawn from the most diverse social
background, is eicient. and is envied.
While not attempting to cover up what
has_ happened, I do beg the House IOkeep a sense of_ proportion and s sensePi.i*ia"°°-1-&#39;e&#39;=&#39;.:.;-1 &#39;:~ :o&#39;:.iZ§&#39;..T.l?-.lL!J*.L;{ &#39;
&#39; Somethingiwvas said by the ForeignSecretary about members of the Foreig
Service having fewer of the rights of
ordinary citizens than did members 0!
the rest of the Civil Service. He referred
to the committee which gets rid of people_t!.-./.»-.
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&#39; [MIL i92&#39;lCHFlLSON.],&#39;..j."_="...f&#39; .,_--&#39;3&#39;-i"_-"-
Foreign _Sertieewill have to accept afurther diminution of their rights. _,_= I
i was struck by the fact that the
Foreign Secretary seemed to think thatthere was very little intermediate stage
between retaining a man in the Foreign
Office and prosecuting him. I believe
that more use should be made of transfer
to other branches of the Civil Service.
iers are two criteria. The rst is
reliability. and the second is vulnerability.I am not talking about Jioliticalreliability. but about re|iab&#39;ity atcharacter.  -J,- "31-? ."~;.t-- -&#39; &#39;
_&#39; In the course ol our lives we meet many
people~sve are probably very often of
that type oursclves-who are very well-
nteaning, but are not oi the strongest
character. and because of that they arebound to be weak links in any chain.
They may be indiscreet; they may con-
tract unfortunate marriages. and they maymix in questionable circles in foreigncapitals. I believe that members ct 1....
Foreign Service. because they have a posi-tion which is highly responsible and
Citceetlingly honourable, must be preparedto accept to a greater extent than they
do at present transfer to other branches
of the Civil Service if their characters
_lrC thought to be I-&#39;eah._&#39;.  a.j:=. P  .~.:
" So tar in vulnerability &#39;1; concerned,
there have been references to the unfor-tunate habits of Burgess ind various
%ple. without deli-raring rriorai ind-rnent, we must face the tact that people
who are rverted &#39; their tastes are -&#39; &#39; pe in ex
trcmely vulnerable to blacltmail. I did
not know Burgess well. I met him once
--or twice: At one time. lie was the B.B.C.representative who arranged the s.pealtersfor The Week in Westminster. &#39;One
had only to look at his eyes to see thatopinionle tlic&#39;gravemuri&#39;e§sine:s which i
felt by people who know their stuilabout the way in_ which We are dealing
with the ommunist menace in this coun-
try. By people who do Know thenstu " I mean people like the hon. Mem-ber lor l-larnniersmith, North and manyof his friends." Our Security Services are
necessarily shrouded in secrecy. and noone demands an open inquiry to bring alltheir methods to light.» i.= s-3t&#39;s;&#39;.1-.__t.;&#39;.
&#39; This debate will have eeité good
shows the Government that there is
anxiety. lt will have done ha."-:3 -
public opinion throughout the world, itreects serious anxiety over the ForeignService. I start where I began: do netinalce any inistalre about it. we have thenest Foreign Service in the world.. Itis democratic, varied. ellieient and theenvy and object of respect of every otherpe°Pk.i ~ .&#39; -_. .  til 14.;-§i;;&#39;it:: i
7.30 P.in."J 1-"L1 &#39;-;=i-.-.=i=.&#39;1*&#39;:&#39;n riri-&#39; -3*-?"&#39;i
h_tr. A. J. lntne  Liverpool. Edge Hill!:I did not have the advantage of hearingthe early stages of this debate. but -I am
tempted to intervene by certain observa-Etions which I heard in the &#39; speeches
latterly delivered. l listened with great in-terest to the observations of my hon;Friend the Member for Stirling and Fal-kirl: Burgh;  Mr. Malcolm MacPherson!.and with a great deal that he said Iagree. But I found dilliculty in ndingthe connection between what my bog,Friend had to saytand the paicuiar issue0! security with whicli. I understand. thel-louse is concerned in this debate,-. H-_
f It mtg well be that the Foreign Oicisutlcrs om not hating as widely repre-&#39;
sentative an establishment as one wouldsvisb. but I should have thought that&#39;itwould be a diflieult case to argue that1
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-  - -- -t >- --  - -- " - ."&#39;~-  &#39; . .L-&#39; i -".&#39;...r.&#39;1-peat-e &#39;¥-_-.-.;u-..-&#39;;- ..,. 4_ _ . .. _... _,,. ..._ ._- ~-. ..,.._,= -.-- ~_ »- ¢-- -.- ,--,=.- -~ »-; - -_---_ - - ---.- --.~--- -- --.-- .-a-=-.-aa-¢.1e-.-- »:r.:.-.§¢- &#39;1-.-. -. .1 ~  L_. ,_ ._ . . . _ -_ _. I _  -_ . --- 1-.»¢.*.".I&#39;~;"..-, -;ev-&#39;~"4-92*""&#39;BF-&#39;I~--I vi -.3 lactic-L!-I-J;¢¢s;-nr.a-wlq-:s>t92ns&#39;;,Iu~ai&#39;a-,§§-&#39;.~ &#39; Ii Jrmd-s "_ | 5 V .. &#39;
559 Former Foreign om - 1 Novnxratztt 1955. on-Id: wrrwlwl .Ip_$7_D,_.4l._£-,...:_g... -Iis quite wrong to found any serious criti-.;_9&#39;?3,,.,., between the type of personnel in r.heforeign Ollie: and security. I thrnli he robably dld not have the advarttage ofgearing the speech of my hon. Friend the
Member for Coventry. East  Mr. Cross-
" u;!_who wentlinto that fairly fullyrr __Flilr. Irvine t I ant obliged. I made myobservation regarding my hon. Friend:irentarks only in order _t at_ ll1e_posItton-might be made clear. "* &#39; i  &#39;
I &#39; In considering the whole extraordinary
"and almost incredible story of Maclea
sand Burgess.-I feel that it is a great
p mistake to attach too muclt importance to
I the detail of their esca and to the detaili of the manner in whiciiethey were able toevade _the auth&#39;oritiv.}s. Tlirre was.obviousl . some unging. ere was.uite cleitrly. a failure to lteep the watchiiiat should have been kept and to put
upon them the restraints which. in the
light oi events. it is quite clear would
have been desirableL_&#39;.i; ;_,_&#39;I_&#39;_&#39;_,,_-;._§__,i I-T .
But there is another side of the picture
which compels us to recognise how extra- ordinarily ditcult it must be to ensure
that two people of that type and character
and with those objectives are not able to
escape. It is a task involting consider-&#39;
able diieulties indeed. I arn reminded of
the story of Gilbert ChestertonI think
it is The Man Who Was Thursday "-&#39;
which begins, if my recollection is aright.
with a picture of twelve anarchists. or it
may be more. One by one. as each
chapter of the story unfolds, an anarchistturns out to be a tcllctectivé; ln the last
and culminatin c apter c position isreached where they are all standing at the
end of a pier at some int on our coast."The last anarchist wm has been dia-
covered to be a detective looks round
upon his colleagues and says. " But where
are the anarchists? The re ly comesbacll. There aren&#39;t any anarchists. We
are &#39;ust a lot of ball lieemen looking Iat each 0lhet&#39;."l".&#39; &#39;:&#39;.- &#39;" :.&#39;.;}. - 1&#39;.-:<_.-..&#39;.:1&#39; .-
There "is no doubt that&#39; in all these
atlairs it is easy to criticise and deride
the forces of security. The advantages
are with the culprit who is seelting to get
away and the disadvantages are with those
who are trying to prevent him from doing
so and who, at the same time, are obliged
t6&#39;lreep within the law and obliged___to_
avbidtlte danger ofletting it be knowngrlfmaturely D that _ gman p _is suspect.
; eretore. tor rny -- !.,r;,~qotld_ th_inlr_,ir&#39; ii ii&#39;a.s&#39;_&#39; &#39; &#39; &#39;cisrn of the Security Services upoit the
details and circumstances 0! the escapl_&#39;-;?..F,-I*I&#39;£.&#39; &#39;
at these two meant--{--l_ &#39;-1-fl. _&#39;~-.&#39;;>-;f&#39;_».-.1.
-The anxiety that l feel about this whole ~arlair relates not to that but_ to Ii|Ql"_:¥r-;v_1u D.
appears to me to be a far more important -&#39;~&#39;.&#39;. <-.. h1
~-
matter. namely. the breakdown which the
incident appears to reveal in the intuitive-
iense and judgment of the_ associates a_nde1t;_1_*&#39;,-:;§_-»-&#39;- .
su riors of these men tn the ForetgirOlga. That is. what causes anr.i:ty.&#39;Iltlf""1&#39;7&#39;?"."
a&#39;ny&#39;trouble in the mechanics of the.matter and not. in my view. any
l_ar detai_l_of_the Security  _ ul llllli
it should have been ossibte for twoople of this kind. or whom we   t 1Eitow all that we dc. to remain so long
in the Foreign Oice and hold at one time
r another itions of considerable im- ° P  .. .portance. suggests that there was the moat  -
astounding breakdown in what one had.
always liked to think was the traditional
faculty in the Foreign Service to dis-".
tinguish between the good and the evtt
and between the sensible and the foolish} -»-~-=---. »- a.  --It - . --__. ..s&#39; Mr. Nichoisol = _ludas amongst pie,
.AP9";~r{..:i&#39; 5- e:_ ii szi_~:;.-ab-Fr-a_&#39;ttrtii._r=
&#39; an.&#39;t~t»¢= ran ti a-parallel ldo nit
intend to follow. That is the matter that-&#39;, - - " &#39;.!&#39;.S&#39;!l!1J| -tr -_uo- .gives rise t.canxtety._f &#39;_,_ | __, i___1j_,,_:_ .
 llcan only conclude. however. thatthe.
breakdown of intuitive scn$¢__ illDepartment cannot have been as bad aa_
at rst sight ll. appears to have  ll;
must have been widely known within the
Department that these two_were unde_§ir_-;able men; - -Ye .5 ---1 .- .1e!l;:" nrit-la. - -1,"
ll one takes that view. if one takes the, ., ._
view that it must have been&#39;ap arent longbefore these two men escaped, that they" :-1*.--#1-~ -
were undesirable types-if one talces
view. in other words. that there cannot
have been such a complete brealadown |n_the intuitive perspicacity and |udrne_ntof the Department that their true c l1&#39;iO_-4 ";.__. W
t_er was not &#39;ltnown within it0tte ttlrna
to the reason why the rudgmenr w_lnr_ts_
must have existed about these men wa_sr _not exposed and made public and wl:y-=_"_&#39;_~"¢=- a Y
action was not taken. I can only assume
that the reason for that was the deepl. .. :,
rooted desire in the Department amongst
Ye--ii-:; 1.|.l&#39; -.H.1 -.5 .t;.:»r:&#39;.::;-tail &#39;
fbne "feels. then. that the real lesson an -
be learnt from this incident is not that
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gravely at fault. or necessarily that there
was as complete a breakdown in theintuitive persgicacity and judgment Ofmembers of e  es at  sight
appeared. but that we are dealing withthe consequence of men in a great Depart-
ment feeling that their obligations to eachother and to the Department were suchthat the truth should not be revealed. allis a ditcult thing. of eoiirse. to sugge
it-hat is the proper remedy for that. --It
may well be that iii this contest the obser-
92&#39;3lIOll$ of my hon. Friend the Membertor Stirling and Fatlcirli Burgh: have par-
ticular relevance. C1... .,__»; L;_._.,_. ;-
Mr. Nicholson : Would nof thi&#39;:&#39;alt&#39;e&#39;r&#39;ria-
live explanation. and the more reasonable
one, be that there was aiiiiiety to lecttre
evidence for a prosecution? ls not that
conceivable?  --~ ~"-4 &#39; " &#39;i
L &#39;_ _,._o, l I.!-" -aIl"-"&#39;2 ,.~~I:UGl""&#39; Mr. Irvine: I should have thought that
that was an unlikely eiiplanation ol what
occurred. The suggestion that crimes can
go on _beir_ig committed indenitelybecause It is thought undesirable tocheck them for fear that there is insuli-
cientevidence is a line of thought. and atinaction. that is full of danger. We are
speaking about conjectures ere. and formy part I do not know any ot_ the persons
concerned. but I should certainly say that
it is yeiy unlihely that the explanation forthis incident is to be found in_ the reluc-
iifi -°.§.."°&#39;§.I&#39;iii.i.§?.tl§.....°..1i.?;;..3.°fI5
evidence. It may have played a part. but Iltttllietll to me to go to the rootema er. ,- " " o,. . _ ,-&#39; I think that. on the last analysis. whenthe matter _ts traced to its source,robably the real root .0! the uouhle here
th: t&#39;5.""..5....&#39;E;&#39;t°"°i&#39; t&#39;iL-&#39;..i.° $35..-¥.i..;&#39;§of loyalliy and ot&#39;_heeping together was ear-rted to the point where things whichshould not _ha_92&#39;e been aiiotved to continuein the public interest were allowed to con-jfll1UC.U It may well be that the observa-
tions of my hon. Friend the Memberfor _ Stirling arid&#39;"Falkirlr Burghsp areparticularly relevant to this point. andthat the mi_stalre-because that is what itts:-of too intense awloy alt! to a Depart-_ent and to one s colleagues in _ aDepartr_rte&#39;-ll. to the point where it is notcornpatib_le_ with loyalty to the highestnaiionai interests. can be treated  byexpanding the sources of recruitment iiitoI ll 0 as &#39; &#39;.. . "&#39; < s§..;.:..u92e _ ,.. .. - 4~-;-Ir . -1»-iisill.-M4-"**-&#39;-"" U _ __ W . _ .- _. . -- t  1 "Z:-.3"e§:s:ra:&#39;:*;"7--"" " I. ,. ._
th Departin t. -"To nd the remedy fort.h:t is a tn? ditlieult taslr. and for the
moment 1 ant not able to think of another
than the remedy which my bola.l92a....s sugeest& .:. .-;-.:  i I  3
- I would say.&#39; fr&#39;i&#39; conclusion
further lesson which, I have nofelt in all parts of the I-louse. of
is that an incident, of this kindbe allowed to be made the occa _the excuse for any kind of illiheral
huntin and pursuit. I ant not at
debate like this ma not prove to &#39;insistence by the H,t:Jt!S¢ as a wholthat ihaii not lie. I speak as oneprefers contention in _political life. butperhaps we are discussing today a theme
Igl&#39;¢IQL 11&#39;-4 11,4, It-".1-P -$4-oi; its Rial;&#39; I 5 an&#39; We do noi want in this &#39;couiitry&#39;any
processes which can be regarded, as.
witch-hunting. At the same tin-ie. we can,perhaps. airee that an example has been -provide.-" were d boar io"yai* aioitgoolleaguu in a Department [has been "-s
Itathat the rnosi valuable -outcome
<_
ion which Members in all parts of the ;.ouse can nd _a very large measure d 
aw-
earried to the point where the national ;.interest has been adversely aected. It &#39;
there be any substance in that win;
oered to the House only after considers.-i.tion of all the aspects of this extraordinary ~"
4:a.se. we may be condent that no section 5of the community will be quicker to lean E.
itthe lesson than the Civil Service itself andthe Foreign Office in pariicular.- >1"
i 45 I-Hi vi; ,z_.t:it::::_ &#39;-_&#39;1~"-I? en: is tE.!r.&#39;..r.*.
Llettt.-Colonel I. K. Cordeana  Nodini:
ham. Central!: The hon. Member telEdge Hill  Mr. A. I. Irvine! has, I think.
exonigtegc the seclunty  aggoua ma ave en e ggliiease  yl do wish I could agree.All of us w o have had the honour It
serveinanyotthesecurityseniieesdthis country--and two have already
spoken-today-would iiire to taite thatview. I cannot. and it cannot be doing
any service, I am sure. in the long rita
to the branch of this great ,Seririce whoa
seputation_is_ at stake in this debate attry to minimise what I feel is the serious-ness of the marina. ... ~.,_- -.&#39;:.," :,.-:-.
P My "lion. " Friend the Member Int
Heiitiain  Mr. Speir! and the Foreignrotary both referred to the extreme neqditeutiies which are now lam by me
security services thanks to the tact that
agents can now often be recruited not
- - 1% " 7 ~4.. 0 If __ ___,. .. -- ; -  - -1,: --.4.+a&#39;t.>ii=ur..,m A .5 . ._- -P
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v This particular failure by the security. - - , - . . ~ - &#39;-..&#39;-.t.~:.&#39;it-~-.1-"*&#39;-"7 " ". .. . . n .- a --. .._..a.-. &#39;- ~~" &#39;.&#39; - - . - _ 1- .92--tar! P1-I -"F "&#39; &#39; &#39; "" - ~- F &#39; t Z-T &#39;. &#39;.HaIJ -1, ,.92 _..._._,. ....- .J - I  ew _ J-.|,-----,--rrr-a,_"V-I-":&#39; .. . .:q_&#39;§|t ~
III &#39; 4 . 4, ,_- .- -._.,_ .  ._,-5.-.  .r -=-v&#39;--1;,-5__-&#39;.-1 -~__.3r, -ft. -.  - rt - .~ - - - -
 ._ _ P &#39;~__1-_,.;i,p.n-s~- »-&#39;3»-P"m   ._,.,,.,.;,..,,,,,,,,.,,,,,.:..-._-,,_,_,;,_._. r - t ..-~_--&#39;- . ~- --r--s= &#39;.&#39;-2.-~ . &#39;~&#39;- ,_...a..-- __¢~-&#39; "- . - - »~..;,..-&#39;-U"  r".-;.&#39;.=--ks-t->=-&#39;4 . ".-.-1_-e&#39; "1-I " &#39; &#39; . . - _  .
. _,-- -pp---4-read-al 41- "" &#39;4""_i&#39; .,
&#39;"&#39; " ""-*"-I¢-*»&#39;""&#39;-&#39; &#39; _ _&#39;..-- &#39; &#39; ___, -a .---1-art...-~ ~- &#39; -_ M ____v__,_-,_;____,,.,_.....-,. t.._fa - ___ ___-_.... . &#39;s._A&#39;. - 4-
étsts Tortster Foreign oer 1&#39;No92&#39;Estnatt tats o &#39; N-  - "."" &#39;.-""?"-"" &#39;
.- . s .. -tr. -.-&#39;- - e.&#39;,&#39;-.&#39;1;&#39;.f""&#39;-""&#39;5&#39;7&#39; &#39;  :4 7."¬ B .-&#39;:.-&#39;,r.-.,&#39;t-at&#39;l.t".-Lela-&#39;7-&#39;-&#39; - &#39; IQ
t only by giving them money. not orgy by__ threatening them. not onlyby any the
.~ old-established ways: but by appealing to- their ideology. It ts very! true indeed.f 9292&#39;hat I contend. W718! has ecn suggested
. by many hon. Members tn the debate. and7 what is_ certainly suggested tn the Whi:e&#39; Paper, ts that since t e war. at any rate.P our secunty service has been going the
wrong way about it to detect those people.
service Ill the case of Burgess and
Maclean is bad enough in itself but&#39;l
maintain that it cannot be considered in
isolation. As I see it. it is the culmination
of a series of failures, which were far&#39;
more damaging to the safety of this
country than this one. .1 refer to the eases
of the three Russian agents engaged on
atomic research in this country. that is to
say. Dr. Alan Nunn May in I946. Dr.
Fuchs in 1949. and Professor Pontecorvo
in I950. I hope that the House will bear
with me for a few minutes while I say a
few words about each of them. for that
leads to the point I am anxious to malte.
The rst of these three agents and
traitors. the least considerable and the
least harmful. was Alan Nunn May. At
Cambridge he was denitely recognised
as a Communist. When he left there he
went to Russia on a visit, and when he
came back he joined the editorial board
of the Scientic Worker." which is the
olcial ioumal of the National Associa-
tion of Scientic Workers, and which at
that time. I thin: it would be quite fair to
say. included many Communists amongst
its directort.- e= :&#39;.- -.» ..".- "u &#39; ="" &#39;"
I am not suggesting that for these_
reasons Nunn May should not have been
employed on atomic research in this
country. Aftersall. in those days. in the
thirties. it was not so very uncommon
to have those views when one was an
undergraduate. - What "is more. when
Nunn May was engaged by Tube Alloys.
the cos-er name used for atomic research
in those days. any person who was a
strong pro-Russian was considered also to
be a strong anti-Hitler. When. however.
after the war our actual enemy. Germany.
changed to potential enemy, Russia. men
like that in such vital positions should
have been considered by our security ser-
vices not. perhaps, with suspicion but, a_t_
any rate. with a very inquiring eye; :_;_"_&#39;
It do not thinlt that too mien blame
can be attached in the rst case. but theieial: iscppearaans I51
point is that. as a result. our securityfervtces apparently made no sort ofinquiries a out the antecedents and backir
ground of_ other atomic scientists who
were working for us. if they had done
so, they would have found rt very much
more important man. Dr. Klaus Fuchi!They would have found "that he was
refugee in this country from Nancutton tn Gertnanycin his youth. that hehad been a tncm of the CommunistParty all his adult life. that all hisbrot crs and sisters were Contmunists;
that he had been reported to the Chief
Constable of Bristol as a Communist. and
that his name had been found in the
note-book of one of the chief suspects
in the Canada spy trial. Yet, apparently;
none of these facts was discoveredebf
our security services. and it was only
three years later. when word came front;
America, that we were able to get busy i
on him. One would have thought that-
after that. at least. our security serviee"&#39;
would have been alerted in this kind  I
case. but not a bit of it.J&#39;-~. -Ff---1
- We then come to the worst of &#39;the three
cases. that of Professor Pontecorvo wbiclt&#39;
followed very soon afterwards. Professoi -~
Bruno Pontecorvo. like Fuchs, was
his youth a victim of Fascist persecution.
this timejn Italy. He had a brother theft?  &#39;who was a well-knc_iwn and active Com-. A
tnunist. He had a sister who was married-
to a_ professed Communist. and his rstcousttrwas a member of the Central 7
&#39; id.Committee of the Italians Communist
Party. After those two earlier examples. &#39;
it was nothing short of shameful that Out "4
security services knew nothing at all about?
or I 4 4! " "&#39; I 1-&#39;l
After Pontecorvo had eseaped_ and_
Questions were raised tn the House. these
were the kind ofreplies that were gives};  .
On 23rd October. 1950. in answer to .a : .
supplementary question by my hon?Friend the Member for Altrincham and *&#39; "
Sale  Mr. Erroll!. the then Minister ti.
atSupply. the right hon Member for.Vauthall  G. R. Strauss! said MPont¢¢g_[yQ_.__.,.T.-.... &#39;_ &#39; .____._  &#39;
". - . has been screened several fimesnduriq &#39;-
tlse&#39;last few years by our security oiees~L"-_ -if
 In answer to I further question. slid 
sight hon. Gentleman said:"... ._aceordin; to the   i A -&#39;
screenings were rtteu ar satsact ."g ;"-3&#39; -~~=,IOFFICAI. llsroaIj.p;3_rd oairtnr. |t9S0qaYeL """"418. e. 1489.]:::.e .&#39;.- -_ __ at -- .n~t".""t;:&#39;=;
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&#39;.i[LlI5UT.-COLONEI. Coaozatmj ii W1-"
How easily satised some people can be,particular? when we recall that. accord-
ing to a urther reply by the right hon.
Gentleman that day. there had been since
the Fuchs case a certain tightening up of
the system. I wonder what it amounted
to. Heaven knows what it was like
1>sror=- it-=7 ..-,4--i  -2-. in t» .
i--Early in I950. apparently alarmed by
the Fuchs trial. Ponteeorvo himself went
to some oi the security authorities and
told them that he had Qrrtrnunlst rel:-&#39;
tions in Italy and had recently seen them_
when he had been over there. At about
the same time we received a report from
Sweden saying denitely- that both
Pontecorvn and his wile were- Com-
munists. Pontecorvo continued to carryout hishighly secret work. and in Julyof that year he blithely set forth with alhis family for a motor tour of Italy. He
did not eome back on the day that he was
due to return. instead. he wrote e lettq
to the atomic station at Harwell, where
he was employed, telling those in autho-
rity t_here that he oould not come back
on time because his car had broken
down. The reply given by the right hon.
Member for Vauahall in the House of
Commons on 6th November, in answer to
a Question. was "&#39;; j.". -&#39;f&#39;;&#39;_, &#39;_ , jf  l .
Dr. l&#39;ontecnrvo&#39;s lease expired on JlstAuist. On this date be had written a note
to _ll&#39;I;¢]|._ recei_v_ed on 4_th Septernhed sayinguiai ne n_ao trouute with his s:ar..t :1... _ ._ _,:
In reply to a further Question. the right
hon. Gentleman said of Dr. Ponteeori/o.
&#39;.&#39;. . the reasons tor this man over-staying
his leave" seemed quite normal. He had IItin &#39;enemy&#39; became nttssra-""tn&#39;siata"at
Germany after the war. our
authorities had carried out even the most
cursory investigations into theit&#39;.back-
grounds. all three would have been found
utterly unt for their jobs: , It seems
barely credible to me that. after allthat,the same thing should have happened in&#39;the case of h aclean &#39; but in fact it ditT.&#39;
Maclea_n&#39;wa&#39;s&#39;of aboiit the same age ls
the three and was at Cambridge with
Nntin May. He was then recognised as
e fkrnrnunist. "He went into the Foreign
Service immediately al&#39;terwards,_&#39; Butalthough we are told in the White Paper
that in January, I949. knowledge came,
to those concerned that information was
being sent from our Foreign Oice to the
Russians and _f&#39;,&#39;T?_",.&#39;,7&#39;_",&#39;;,1I,I&#39;;&#39;.; .f&#39;,&#39;.&#39;|
"&#39;li.ig_liy secret but widespread ind protrietelfinquiries were b¢gun,__&#39;_&#39; ."__ _ d&#39;,_]._i&#39; _&#39;_;&#39;e4;;_&#39;;
those widespread inquiries were-spread widely enough even then to include:Haclean&#39;s background just before
joined the Foreign I5 ,_&#39;. i.
A year and a half later. in April. I950.
the inquiries were not even spread. as.
widely as that. when. in fact. the suspects
had been narrowed down to two or three:
of whom. ot course. he was one. They
were not even spread widely enough tel.
include his background immediately be;
fore be joined the Foreign Service when
the suspects had_be_cn narrowed down
one-he himscl[beeause&#39; paragraph 4of the White Paper states that the tnfct-;
niation was obtained only after _lt-tlaclean
lad °§°P°d- _- ~ ---..*."-"&#39; tic-tzv-air-arr
. Therefore, it amounts to this-that allI __ _. i .i__ t .._, .. , .._ . _,,_...._ __ ._ -.--_-._..._
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l Of course nobody who ltnows anything&#39; about this subject imagines that such__a
It watch is kept by the village policeman
_ sloing his uniform and&#39;putting on a
j&#39; bowler hat and a tweed suit above his
t uniform boots and following somebodydown a count? lane. There are other
t methods. and t e fact that apparently no
- -.-.-arch oi any kind was ":la% eaMaclean during the vvocl: end in vihich
he escaped is nothing short of shameful.
The right hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Lev-&#39;isham, South  Mr._ I-I.
Morrison! agreed to the interrogation on
that Friday morning of 25th May.
Maclean has asked for and obtained leave
for the following Saturday morning.
Therefore he was not due in the Foreign
Qice _bet&#39;_ween the _Friday _evening andthe Monday morning. Whatever mayhave been t e reason ivhy he went when
he did. whether it had been arranged
long before or suddenly we do not yet
know. but it must have been obvious to
our security authorities and those inc
charge that this week-end was the danger
period. Yet, as I said. not a step was
talten to keep any surveillance on him
throughout that period. -qr; ,,-_y-.-~-_.-.
It lime luinn caiirl nnml nr laarirp in "ail as --as Ivvwal -u.-. v..-. -.. -e-.-_. -.. us.
debate that the chief value of a secret
service is that it should be secret. Un-
fortunately that exeellent maxim has been
so consistently tlouted since the war by
amateur authors cashing in on their eit-
perienccs and breaking into print as I
result oi two or three years temporary
service in one of our great Services in_1
wartime that we can well aliord a slight
risk of loss of secrecy once tuorein I
gem cause. The cause l am suggesting
as an inquiry into our security service.-
-1 do not feet that whitewashing will
satisfy the people of this country about
this case. Their faith in our security
seriioe has been sadly shaken. and it must
be our rst resolve to try to restore it at
all costs. The same thing applies to their
faith in our Foreign Service. My hon.
Friend the Member for Farnhain  Mr.-.
Nicholson! said that the public condence1136 been I little shaken for the rst time
by this case. "That was a triumph of
understatement in view of what people are
&#39;i.&#39;*l"r», ,_-_ .-f;.j.  ...;- _ --.&#39;-,:.; .;. .
Quit Foreign Service has always re-
ceived the criticism from which. to a large
extent. our security service has been free.
It has been accused of being too much
at D at. 1 .-  _  .. ¢-&#39;--.-5&#39;-I-&#39;14:i.&#39;.Z&#39;.}f.JS?"»*""&#39; *  .-
""&#39;. .I92|.g_,u,-, I u iv. _  :.J-   ,__  _.__, &#39;. "  I  -divorced from reality. of having too many
_ receptions and cocktail parties. of being
stalled by too many old school ties. Yeti
even its more severe critics in their wildest
moment have never before this casesug-v
gested that it harboured traitors. and now
people know that it did and they believe:--.e-~
that it still may do s-0.,-3: .- -:--i r. :..- {&#39;2- t &#39;l&#39;he&#39;only&#39;vvay in which wecain be iairly;
sure of reassuring the people of this;
country. both as regards the elciency oI__our security arrang-ements and about whathas happened i_n t ts case. is to appoint scommittee of inquiry. l_vvould suggestthat it should be a committee form ,tl_ie_1udicial members of the Privy COUNCIL,
sitting in secret and reporting to the PrimegMinister. Tltathv-&#39;ould go far to reassure,IDIIP I92e*J&#39;92l92 I Ii H Pl0lI&#39;92l&#39;£ I&#39;P2 ¬lIl&#39;2IIIT._ e-. r-..,.-- W--- _---- -- -__.--.-.-..-..-
Therefore most earnestly I asl: my right,
hon. Friend to reconsider the decision lltat_.2qI:ir,IrlOl necessary t_o_ hold _any Stldl:
_ r .; ..... ".f,  :., _ as85 ?_m_..4 >1.-0 tr,-u --.-:1 :"&#39;:!"T 5&#39;-;fI""§92l. &#39;
Leut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton {Brin-
ton!: I nd myself in cordial agreement.
with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the;
Member for Nottingham. Central  I-ieut.-H
 Colonel Cordeansl. lhooe that there
be a judicial inqtiiry airing the lines he.
advocated and mentioned by my right,--~
hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham,_,
South  Mr. H. Morrison! earlier in the.
debate; This debate will be a shani
exercise unless it is followed by such an
inquiry.--... {lit-.;r&#39;.u=:a II L:/It I 1:": litsft
We want an inquiry into the tecnil
ment and stalling of the Foreign Ollice. .-
We also ii.-ant an inquiry into the etliciency]
of our Security Service. Those should-
be two separate and distinct inquiries. I11
may be found necessary to have a ditler-&#39;~i
ent Iorrn of inquiry in each case since
exactly the same security considerations ~
do not apply to an investi_t;ation into the-stafng and recruitment of the Foreign "
Olce as would obviously and necessarily}  c-
apply to an examination of our Secret_
Service. Unless there is an inquiry people-
will remain profoundly dissatis!ied._&#39;niith5
the official ronouncernent made on the 1subject by the right hon. Gentleman the,,_,._
Secretary of State for Foreign Aairs. -_-,_-,1
Iwillnotoesfarbac i
g E as did the" __
hon. and gallant Member for Nottingham, ~ -
Central. . I will only go baclt to 1951.,
In the light of what the Secretary cl;
State _for_ Foreign Aairssaid today,,l,. .
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e : iappeiiranu 580
[Liter -Courszt. Ltrroit]  - prevails As a matter of tact I was&#39;sohave come to the conclusion that it
Burgess and hlaelean had not left the
country all that would have happened
would have been that Burgess wouldhase been aslied to resi n on pain ot
disttussat and would pro ably have res gned in that nay Maclean might still
hate been earryin on in some capacityin the Forei n Ollgice because up to the
ume of his isappearance. there was still
no etidence against him to yustify pro-
When th-se two men disappeared the
rst statement on the subiect was made
on llth lune. l95l in this House l
sugcested on that occasion that it looked
as it perhaps their immediate dismissal
mieht be justified I was told that it
would be premature to come to a con
clusion about it one way or the other
The House seemed to accept that, and
as the White Paper reveals. one year
afterwards these tuo men were suspended
-alniost a week after they had dis
appeared. It took a week for somebody
to make up his mind that they ought
to be suspended After they had been
suspended they were Ill" ltept on the
Foreign Otlice list because a decision to
temiinate their appointments was not
talren until lst June. I952 with elteci as
from lst lune, i951 &#39;, .-, - o . 1  ._~ii - ,
That struck me at the time as very.
odd and I asked a Question about the-
delay of one year and when itwas nally
decided to dispense denitely and __
maiiently with the services of these men.
This is the reply I received from
right hon. Gentleman who is now Minis-ter of State at the Foreign t!llioe;;&#39; _, --
" -Ills because the search ofthein was&#39;con=
tiiiuin Indeed, the search is still continuing.But, avinp been absent without leave for a_year. my l&#39;92§.i&#39;ll hon. Fnend has_eonside_red thatas a dtseip inary measure their appointments
ahould be terminated and that they alinuld.be&#39;
dismissed the Service."-»{OFFiciaL Rnroat,
=1-<1 tut-gP>,2.=. vet .w.=,.-= .4114 i  . -- -
In !i.ily.- I952. a year afterwards. sonic--Y
body had taken the terrible decision that?
the time had come when the lppoint-~
inent_s oI&#39;"these two men should be
umlnili-..i&#39;.au&#39; &#39;25.! 2;. t..; it.-f"._t&#39;i"t I
-I merely nieniioii that becauseit is;
symptomatic of the attitude. atmosphereat spirit which apparently prevailed in-
tbe oreign Occ at the time, and stillahbergasted and breathless at that re|;lythat I ttas unable to aslc another Question
about the subieq tor eighteen months. tr";
On $th January 19*-i I decided to
talte the plunge again. I asked the right
hon Gentleman who is non the Minister
of Supply st-hat st-as going on. and he said
that iniesiigations uere continuing, but
no detailed account of their nature could
be giteri without Pl&#39;C|LldlCl the chance
another blinding reielaiion of the ob-
vious. that if I presumed that these tw
men were behind the iron Curtain
should probably be right. It will be noted
that even then the ri ht hon Gentleman
was not committing imsclf to anything.
An how. I waited another year On
3lst aritiary 195$ I asltcd the Secretary
ot State tor Foreign Aiairs what wan
going on The right hon G ntleman who
is now the Minister of State replied that
he had no statement to male at that
l&#39;I1Ol1l¢l&#39;li&#39;li&#39;lli is the illuminating sentence
-the reason being that he would not wish
to make a statement has d on inadequate
information and insufficient researches
seeing that the iniestigation was still
being pursued. i. .. em ,-r - It J
So at the beginning of this year no.
statement could be made. research was.
still going on. the information was inade
quate. and there was nothing more to.say at the moment. The Foreign Secre-;
taiy was asked about it on 27th A ril,,
Nothing to add. _. One of the ointlUnder Secretaries was aslzed about it pd20th Ju_.ne_; {Nothing to_add. u-__ ii-{,4
1 men we got 5 White Papefwhich &#39;vir-1
tualty hadnoihiiig to add to what every
body already knew. and we have today=
had an eloquent speech full of interesting-
political- philosophy.- by the Foreign 1;
Secretary which adds nothing at all to!
what anyone who has been iollowitig this,
matter with his own unaided. resources-has been able to discover; -ii,-r_ e;.,.- ,tii:-.-nil
i "iii thosecireun-istances. it is nbt at all.
surprising that the White Paper has met ITunanimity of obloquy rare in the history;
of White Papers issued by any Govern-.
iiient sinoe White Papers have been
issued.-whatever that date might have
been. -It has been condemned every-
where; I will not weary the House_
by detailing the journals troni which thesel-"-" i l§79&#39; itemnremiit oinei"- 1&#39;i~iov£MiiEn 1955 0 ital D! " " &#39; "" &#39;1&#39; I
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comments on the White Paper have been
etttracted:.* Y. &#39;  "--&#39;--"&#39;*&#39;-T-5
"-..- -~&#39;*:*~==&#39;="=>:&#39;:. ::=.&#39;I."::==.;-..-;;.!::&#39;::=" PI&#39;llJ1II&#39;IbII a - - |»&#39;Il"""l&#39; 92" &#39;_"""&#39;""""&#39; &#39; ,&#39; &#39;
eover-up to _prote_ct men _|t.llll1 of sypplying
successive Ministries with incomplete informa-
tion . - . admission of failure . . . an insult
Q my reasonable mans intelligence. ;-I.
Those tire quotations from comments
made by papers representing almost everyshade of political opinion and thought inthis country. I  E101: them because they
bear out what I elieve every speaker in
the debate has tried to adopt as the _tonc
of his __spcechthe_ non-party politicala-"roach that we have wen trying toshit towards the very serious problem
which has been exposed by the events in
the Burgess and Maclean case. Very
many Governments are involved. perhaps
ever since the time when Maelean entered
the Foreign Service. it is idle and un-protable now to apportion blame. and
am glad we have not wasted our time
trying to do so.- ==-- -- 1 -- - -, -
There is one quotation which l should
like framed and hung in everv depart-titenl of the Foreign Oicc. ti is from
Gulliver&#39;s Travels "2 &#39;
Providence never intended to make the
management of public affairs n mystery to be
cornprehended by n few persons of sublimenot-nus &#39; &#39; . - ~
I should like that quotation hung in every
Government De artmcnt. but particularlyin the Foreign  gllicc. because there. over
the years, has been created a kind of order
which I can only describe_by saying that
they have tended to regard themselves as
I new Samurai of twentieth century Eng-
land. It is an attitude of mind which
has been stressed by previous speakers.What is wrong with the Foreign Office is
not only the inefliciencv of its Security
Services-that is one oi the issuesbut
the attitude of mind and spirit of the
place. which maites it an extremely aw]:-
ward problem for any Government to dealwith satisfactorily. -1 "-_ I-&#39; -3: &#39; L _f - -&#39; --
The point that i want very seriously
to i_nalte is that there is it reluctance. from
which many Governments have sullered
the present Government su&#39;er from iti-
to tell the people the truth and the vthole
truth. The people will lsnow how to
]udge_all right if they are told what thetruth is. lites-er was there a more intelli-Ent or fair-minded public than is now to
found in this country. What have we
to be afraid of Why n ery pos-
.. .sible mcaston giv cube.
ill D ll . .
- .to the principle that. as far as ssihie.the people of this country slfouldplie told-
the truth and the whole truth? -M---I-151,1
ne oi the dititcuities about the iiiatief
over the past few years has been thef
reluctance to tell the people the trutli.,
That is responsible for all the omissions?
from the White Paper. the evasion! itf
answers to Questions in this House and
in another place. and the stupid situations
in which successive Governments have:-._.¢- - ,1-;H
.  _ ,
_ 1:1.
J...-s
. a.L1ze._-_
-u§é:;4--
ip-.
.,,,,
found themselves involved as a result of-------
following the Foreign Omce tradition?
that the world will come to an end if_- :_.._. &#39;____ - ___ ._ _ 1.. - .- g ;_Z:_ 1uitiiiiniy ptsupic arts witi I ititic tO0_It1ttCiI._&#39;- __ .
* I will not go through the White Papetff
in detail. That would be a waste of time.-
at the present stage. I merely want to.
draw attention to two or three points. and-&#39;
l will do so very briefly. On the Friday;
before Maclean had his Saturday morningoil. just at the time when everytliing was;
approaching a climax. and a ter it had
been decided that there should be qnee-"
tions-incidentally. it was not even known
that lvlaclean was missing until the
Monday. as has been pointed out&#39;by":
previous spealtersthe senior securityz
officer. who ltnew that Mactean was under.
observation,&#39;saw him go oil in I taxi-cab?
but had no instructions to stop him;
What sort of security arrangement is!
mag? _&#39;,&#39;t&#39;.&#39;=» 7:r-.&#39;.;s..-li_2t_&;1.:,f:. 1;:-_:__etWe now learn from the White Pafierthat the_ Foreign Office was aware for t_92v&#39;o&#39;i-r_,.
5&#39;5 I ;
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_?I-{£71
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,...
-.n.»e.~ t
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years and three months before the dis-&#39;f-r--1-5......_ -......- .1 .s.- a ,. ___ .s__ _____.nppiiiiaiicc us int: siiiu uicn tiiai iqiri
information had lealrcd out. Then sue-&#39;_picions narrowed down to two or threeé
people. and somewhere about that period;
so careful were those concerned not to?_,-...,..
.-:":==&#39;"
Q-Is.r "- .
-.-:&#39;f&#39;efZ&#39; : &#39;. J_-&#39;give Maclean any warning that he was; =~ -
under observation that it was decided ta.
deny him access to secret paperswhich
would normally have gone to him in theJ2" &#39;_. -t&#39;}_IY&#39;I I
-_1-t-_u»--~
at vs _!v n.&#39;-_
course of his duties. Of course. anyone; -e._-:~
as intelligent and as competent as"-&#39;:+ss-*
htaclean had ken eertili to be by Si-t&#39;;-L-I153-.7.-.}.?.,._&#39;=-&#39;
Roger Makins and othcrsqwhohad had; _-__him under observatiouri. would have
easily smelled it rat. to put it no higher? _-"Iiias soon as secret documents were being"-6&7?"
withdrawn from his obser92&#39;ation.&#39;;_?&#39;.",*&#39;-&#39;.&#39;*.!_&#39;fjljjf
Even when Maclean has disappeared_-;b___1_- _
and investigators rushed to his home at ._, ;"""
Tatsfield, they did not trouble to examine,  _.=
the mass of papers which he had left be-hind. It may well be that Maclcan hadi.--.-elf-;1;..
-extracted anything-that mightvt
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or which might have created suspicion.
After Burgess was recalled to London and
was on -the way out. as has been made
clear by preeeeding speakers. he made a
telephone call to the United States and
talked to some unknown person. That isknown because he left a friend of _his to
 be_bl_I! ?£1-&#39;3 _v&#39; &#39;-;.&#39;.£J_l O3  &#39;1l.
Here was a man in that very short
period since his return to this country with
n view to having some disciplinary actiontaken against him making a long teln-Egone call to the United tates to some-dy or other and apparently nobody wasconcerned about w at he was doing orwhat his intention; were. ,". 1&#39;5 &#39; ,, ,, &#39;,. ..s_.s.
I will say for the British Security Ser-,
vices-and I agree with a great deal cl
what was said by the hon. and gallant
Member for Perth and East Perthshire
 Colonel Gomme-Duncan!--that within n
few days of the disappearance the British
Security Services had all the facts of the
 , .... .1... -- 1- ii .-r.- t -: ~/"- -" "
I do not want to talte up the time cl
the House. but let me now come to the
situation that existed in the middle _ol
April. I951. when. according to the White
Paper. the eld of suspicion had been
narrowed to two or three persons. The
Government cannot even make up their
minds whether it was two or three. Why
is there this or? Either the eld hadbeen narrowed down to three rercans. orit had not. Let us have a itt more
precision. Let us at last depart from the
verbal gymnastics in which. wboeverit iswho draws up these documents. is toga-cient. Had the eld of suspicion en
narrowed by mid-April to three persons?_That is a simple uestion which I hopecan be answered. ilihy play around with"twoorthree?&#39; &#39; " &#39; "
, _¢ . . r_.a 1&#39;--;-- " 1"" v"&#39;_;_,
I said that but for the tact that Burgess
and Maclean disappeared. the Security
Services might still have not had any rm
evidence against them. The reason for
that is very simple and is tacitly admitted
by the White Paper. It is that even by.
April. 195i. and possibly since, there was
" . . no Ie I ndmitsible evidence tliprosecutitl iinder the Ocial
That is from paragraph IQ. ..-._&#39;--_.;_._.* ]._._ 2;
Are we to allow the security of thenot listen to my right hon. Friend&#39;s speech.ms FOPMII rag... on-. 7&#39;NO92&#39;£MBEIt tsss" opterarr-nrtap;-mesa? 13843
Foreign Ollie: Security Set-"lee and the
Foreign Secretary himself could have bad
powers and sutcient information on-
whieh to act which would have enabled
the Foreign Secretary. without any prose;
cution under the Oicial Secrets Acts. to
talze steps to ensure thatjhe security d
the country was not endangered in future.It we are to rely on prosecutions under.the Oflicral Secrets Acts. then goodnessknows in what diniculties and irnbroglioi
we shall nd ourselves.-&#39;1 1 .; ..,. .,.._ 11..-
&#39;- Mr. John Peyton  Yeovil! :&#39;Is the
and gallant Member suggesting that these
two men should have been arrested. with-
out I charge being levelled against them_ under the Oilicial Secret_s,Aet_s7_
Liens.-Colonel Lipton t _tta.&#39;*&#39;Atl t assuggesting is that these two men. fa-_
reasons qutte apart from the OfficialSecrets Acts. proved themselves unttedto be in the Foreign Office. Why. there-;fore. do we have to wait for the accumu-.
lation of sulcient evidence under the
Ollicial Secrets Acts to get rid of 50mgdrunks. homosexuals. or people idlpcrga
menlally untitted by reason of their-
characters to occupy any position inGovernment Departtnent?,_ ,_;&#39;1,__ ,,,, _
That is the point I am trying to make
and surely it is not a point which is dim-
cult to comprehend even by the mo-st&#39;ignorant members of the general popu-
lation who must not be told too muchby the Foreign Oioe about what is going
on. It is said that the field had been
narrowed down to two or three persons.Let us assume that what the White Paper
Ibsen! is that the suspicions had been
narrowed down to three persons.- We,
still do not ltnow whether one of the
three was Burgess. We have not yet been"Md  ...- s 1». r. 4&#39;-.s. " La
-... .., ,. ..92. .&#39;..-;,.,_ .,r.
The Joint Under-Secretary of Stale
Foreign Aairs  Mr. R. H. Turtonl: The}
hon. and gallant Member for Brixton
 Lieut.-Colonel Lipton] should remember
what was said by my right hon. Friend
the Secretary of State for Foreign Allairs."
He said that no sus icion rested upon.Burgess at the time of his disa pearance.&#39;Clearly. the hon. and gallant biimber did
- Lleot.-Colonel Lipton t I did hear hill0
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employed in some other Government
Department. All that would have ho -Q 1-win! gynuld have been that h - hi
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We are now left with twolpeopie vthose
identity is not yet disclosed. three people
came under suspicion. one was hlaclean
ad the other two did not include Burgess.
Why is there such great reluctance by the
Foreign Oioe to say what has happened
to those two people? . ti -..;.----.--»~--
. Mr. George Thomas  Cardiff. "We&#39;st}:
Docs my hon. and gallant Friend think
that it is the job of a Government Depart-
ment to smear people on suspicion? ..&#39;"&#39;
l Lleut.-Colonel Lipton : I will come tothat point in a moment. There is s very
sin-iplc_ ans-sver to it and hon. lviemberi
will have an answer to that Criticism. I
am not asking the Foreign Otlice to
mention any names. but why is it that
they will not disclose and have not yet
disclosed how many oeople have been
lslted to resign. have been dismissed, or
transferred to other positions as a result
of. or following. the in uiries arising fromthe Maclean-Burgess disappearance, . ..
hlr. Tortoo 2 My righi hon. Friend the
Foreign Secretary gave the exact numberin his speech. Perhaps. again. the hon.and gal ant ltlernber for Brixton was not
present when the speech was made. .
&#39; Lieui.-Coionei Upton: I iistened as
carefully as I could to the speech of theForeign Secretary, and 1 alplologise it Idid not catch that gure. 09292"e92&#39;et&#39;. the
right hon. Gentleman has added one little
crumb of information to the inadmuate
information provided in the White Paper;
When the speech of the Foreign Secretary
is carefully analysed, as it can only he
carefully analysed when we see it in print
tomorrow. _the general public will se_e howvery ttttie he added to what was already
known to anyone who has been following
[hg aaaga ;;;;--&#39;--li&#39;;t¢_1;,i- ;."I.&#39; If 22.-.&#39; 
.&#39; __,t1,&#39; -7 cart-*y"t:I now come to thé remitrlrs made by
the Foreign Secretary about Mr. Philby;
but before dealing with them I will deilwith the iuestion of smear referred to by
my hon. riend the Member for Carditl.West  Mr. G. Thomas!. a One of the things
which deliberately encourages the spread-ing d what we all deplore and ltnoe: as
McCarthyism is the reluctance on the partd the Government to disclose inlorrua;&#39;_
ll n at
____ _ _______ __, _ _, :, U. 4-: 57?? =._e .5 _--_-_z=_1.§,&#39;:7|;&#39;;.-.7-are :: &#39;J?;:&#39;_:»I;&#39;,&#39;_;f_ &#39;41.;_y_¥?___- __  1 Z  ._.d ,-J _ ._ ._ .
-- mi: " .-;:".-.:;"_&#39; "r I-&#39;- &#39; 3- &#39; " ___" ._&#39; _ ,  ,4 --*- 4 &#39; &#39;  _, K,-.. &#39;.-&#39; ;" I12_ __ I-_ I d V - ~;;";<- "!_&#39;_ .- -, »->1 - _  &#39;,,....,_!__: -_._,.1.,_.»&#39; " F &#39; .&#39; " &#39; 1_&#39;,-u-sf ~*"&#39;T&#39;v?&#39;-3?
. - F 7;: P &#39; JPcreates the very risks which we all want15 - MBER I955 0I|&#39;e|&#39;|als sappearmrnd I58;-,
still be in the country and probably re-.>.  "=
.:&#39;.¥
l50It-i The withholding of .informalion;--154&#39;-1"
to avoid and which every decent-_rninded»ii=1-5*?-"il&#39;*
person rleplores. the risk ol suspicion a .distrust in which McCarthyism tlourishe|§§P_
ll only the Government had had&#39; courage to take the people of this country»....&#39;_
ll&#39;ll0 their condence four years ago! 1-re-.&#39;e&#39; &#39;
There is nothing in the white Paper,
except the disappearance at e rst
hlaclcan. which could not have been dis-closed four years ago. As my hon. Friend .".. "J" &#39;
the Member for Coventry. East  Mt&#39;."--&#39;9&#39;?Crossman! pointed out. the Petrov trialp-"-::&#39;*&#39;
idded little or nothing to the itnown iaersi"
Nothtng has happened in the past four
years to suggest that it would hav ebeencontrary to the Public interest if_ this,-Whtte Paper, ha been published four
vears ano. &#39;- &#39;;- -_r;-  ;-_».;;&#39;r&#39; 24*-  .-2&#39;-&#39;; &#39; " &#39;"-=-"1»:*- t..;.s.-:-*--&#39;;a._r.-ire?!Mr. Datnes: Before my hon. and li-
lant Friend leaves the ease of F
Phifby. I would point out that in the
course of a Question, which was greatlypublicised, he rode -.-.-hat was tantanteunf
to a charge against that gentleman. The
House is in a pritileged position. and I
think that my hon. and gallant Friend
owes it to the House to give the souroeolthat information." &#39; " "  i  "&#39;
7 _ _ =  -.. ".&#39;»:-,;.-=; we
.l..leut.-Colonel Lipton: I was 83110].
that the information given by the Foreign
Scereta in the course of today: debatehas addyed little or nothing to what 1-si""&#39;-""_-.-o|,~-- 1 -
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&#39;holdin&#39;g of information whilch7_creates_7n_t.}?atmosphereiof suspicion AIn_d_7d_ts_tt&#39;_ust._____   -
Mr. G. Thomas: Give the inlortnatiotl &#39; 2*» Y-and we shall all be satised.-1+   __&#39;!,_i..i. ,.... : -i . ,7... _-¢ . . -t-----.VrI~r_ 7; cf Q 1&#39;i Licut -Colonel Ll ton : We had to wait ea -..four years before the Government made  .-Q
a_ staternent. The hon. P-lemberqé-;a;;,;l§__&#39;f.,.-a *._.1-.sr&#39;."
Mr. Dairies : On a point of order.-*My_ _.__._ _ .hon. and gallant Friend has made what. -i;-4.§&#39;==~-
amounts to a charge against an illdltfldllil; -_=_:-__-_,;;
who cannot defend himself in this House;-T "&#39;»"""
I repeat that he owes it _t_o the House,-10: 2.:-?x.rr=w-.give the source of his information.
should withdraw the chaI$%&#39;ll|_:lt¢i..&#39;l..,l&#39;:.f
Lletrt.-Colonel Lipton : &#39;l"he question d
what I owe or do not owe to the House ii"  .&#39; &#39;~
 s " &#39; .8a matter not to be decided by my holil
Friend the Member for East Ham. North.
 Mr. Daines!. but by the House as a whole
and by you. ll-tr. Beputy-Speara. and able;
general _ public outside - However._ j~le_:_;
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Mr. Halon: Further to that point dorder. &#39;ould you care. Mr. Deputy-gé-tealter, to enlighten the hon. and gallantentleman on what he owes to yourselfand the House? . .t.."..- &#39;......~ M11.--. tt&#39;a
&#39; liir. fiepnty-pealter  Sir Rhys Iiopltln
Mort-is!: That rs not a point of order;The hon. and gallant Member is himselt
responsible for any statement he makes inthe House. - - --&#39;-  ~ .1 -&#39;3 "
. _   -,.,.~_-_tt.rr in -,-es!-stews :-try--&#39;17- f Mr. Tommy: Will you. Mr. Deputy-
Speaker. give the hon. and gallant Mem-bet directions that he should inform theHouse? . q -.... 1. ",..&#39;r...t.- he &#39;.§t..&#39; t.»&#39;._=&#39;.&#39;;
&#39; Mr. &pnn"-Speakers i cannot give
any such directions. Every hon. Memberis responsible for any statement he mat-esin the House. and the hon. and gallantMember is liltetyise responsible tn thisQ55,-&#39;1 _;.r.-r- -.1.-;&#39; -.&#39;. ;.!; tl».:!&#39;.;."-t .:S- &#39;1 "* &#39;""&#39;   &#39; :&#39;:&#39;." &#39;1 &#39;-&#39;..I. Mr. II. G. MeGl|ee  Penistone!: Youdo not ltnotv him. Mr. Deputy-Speaker. , -,
Lleut.-Colonel Lipton : I am very glad.Mr. Deputy-Sneaker. that you havehelped to dispel the queer illustons whichexist in the minds of some hon. Membersas to what you can and cannot__direet.. ,,
I made as careful a note as [possiblycould of what the Foreign Secretary saidin his speech. He said, There are still
inquiries being made. The name of onernan_"-I am quoting as accurately asgosstble-" has been mentioned in theouse of Commons. but not outiide. Ihope that I am not quoting the right hon.
Gentleman inaccurately. My rst oom-rnent on that is that in itself the state-ment is inaccurate. because the nameofthis man has been mentioned outsige theHouse d Commons. it-ot only has itbeen mentioned. bufit has appeared in
l?""¢-.:t.t.t&#39;. it 2"tt." e ti: s r.-- it.;1 air.
&#39; l have new hatfsent to me a&#39; copy olthe American newspaper the Sundayi&#39;92nr.r of iird October. that is to say, theSunday before the House resumed afterthe Summer Recess. frorn_ which Iextract the tollowin quotation from "Ilong article entitledé I Identify .. Third
Man who helped spying oiiiciais fleeBritain." The quotation which I wishto extract from this article reads &#39;asfollottrs-and do not forget that thisarticle was published on 23rd Octoba-.that is to say. two or three days before
the House resumed: : _- __. ,._ _;-;-1,-at n at &#39;1
."t t the Forein0tl&#39;tceisdeatlsunrtsth-mehta no zsrlt tun-. test. isht dBurgess and lttaetean, his only punishment waskin. rcdfe __.. _.._.a..&#39; t 1-; &#39; .l.&#39;. ~ -M :-Lu:
ln view of the fact that the fame ti
Mr. Philby had already been reprotlt-".:edin _ptint outside the House. I ¢|0_0l llllkit ts quite accurate for the Foreign Secre-tary. if he was suicicntlit; well-tnfotlntlin the matter. to suggest t_ at the ttatne at
one man has_l_>een_ mentioned here andnot outside. That is just_not an itittttrlte
representation of the posttion..-4.1 stud. or
Mr. R.&#39;Bronman-White  Rutherglen!:I wish to ask the hon. and gallant Gentle-
man to clear up one point He has 5
great deal of information about this. Halthat name been mentioned outside; theHouse in this country In any &#39;circuttt-stances which would leave the way openfor legal action by the man whose&#39;nattt_eha :5? mar?  :-:.li;.:-":-I-r&#39;:"&#39;*&#39;tif-.
&#39; Lit-ut.-Colonel Lipton: Tim dealingwith the statement of the Foreign Secre-tary. I did not know what he was going
to say. All I know is that e little e.""
ago the Foreign Secretary said. in&#39;a
carefully prepared part ol his speech.the name oi one man has been mentionin the House and not outside. l produceevidence to indicate that when the namect this man was mentioned in the Houseit had already appeared in print out.s_ide,¢
" The Foreign Secretary went on to say
that he had been privy to much of the
investigation into the leakage. 1 do no
quarrel with that; I expect that is an
aoeurate statement ot the case. becauseit was part of his duty. in the positionhe occupied at 9292ashington,&#39;to discharge
certain responsibilities in connection withsecurity. Iiut what the Foreign Secretary
went on to say was that Mr. Pitilby wasa friend of Burgess at Trinigo College,
Cambridge; that he had mmunist
associations during and after his univer- days. and that in those circumstaneeahe was asked to resign from the Foreign
Otce on lst J_ul- 19513&#39; :; s,-,._-,._...;.,"r- I suggest that thismpart Bfthe Foreign-Secretary&#39;s speech is_-on a par with theiltlfbll gymnastics that were displayedin another place by a Government spokes-man and is not as [rank as it ought Dbe. The only interpretation I can planeon these remarlt.sif I am quoting theright hon. Gentleman correctly/-1-is thatI
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&#39;. _,. .1 . .- i  - &#39; II589 &#39; Forrner l~oreignOiec TNO92&#39;E!92lBER l9$§ Olcinls-b lililtfflllzl
with Burgess _durit-tg their ttrtifcrsitycareers. and ll&#39;lC1l&#39; Comrnuntst associations
after their university days. Phtlby was
asked to resign from the Foreign Service
on lst July, l95l. .--. -",y.&#39;. =.-.  .; 2-
&#39; Then the Foreign Secretary tvcnt on to
say that, since that dale. he has been the
subject of the closest investigation. I have
no doubt that that isso. I have dealt
with the point previously. namely. thatif the Foreign Office is to keep on investi-
gating people until it has suicicnt
evidence under the Ollicial Sccrcts Act
to prosecute. it may well be that all kinds
of people will be able to get away withall kinds of things, -_~ ~. .;.-_.;:&#39;:_ -1 l
, The -Minister of St.sle&#39; lo: Foreign
Affairs  .92lr.. Anthony Nailing!: As the
ltotl. and gallant Gentleman has based I
great deal of his case on the statement
that certain statements appeared in the
American Press before the House of Com-
mons met on 25th October. can he eon-
rm or deny that the statements from the
American Press of 23rd October to which
he has referred were based on disclosures
which had already been mad: by the hon.
and gallant Gentleman himself to news.
papers in this country? I was myself in
the United States on 23rd October. and
read various Press reports which referred
to Mr. Philby. and these Press reports
were based on allegations made by the
hon. and gallant Gentleman himself in
Fl" =°".","Y-
Llent.-Colonel Lipton : The very simple
answer to that is this. While it is true
that the name of an hon. Member is
mentioned in this particular article, that
hon. Member is not myself. and I do
not |tt:|0W- HON. MEMBIZRS: What isthe dalc?] ll is 23rd October. 195$;that is the date Oi the article. According
to some articles in unspecied American
newspapers on unspecied dates. the right
hon. Gentleman has suggested that I men-
tioned the name of Mr. Philby. If lhil ll
lo. 1 should be very pleased to examinethese particular fieriodicals. -&#39; Al lllt!moment. I Persona ly have no knowledugewhatever o any articles appearincf in eAmerican Press to that eect. an . there-
fore. I em not able to answer the right
hon. Gentleman or make any withdrawalbased uéaon the statement which he hasjust ma e.,_...i .. ,_&#39;_;.,  *&#39;, i, .- _. »:-l . .-..1:r.&#39;.<..-:- What I was in the course of saying was
libel the Foreign Secretary himself has
BU.said that since that dite-lst Iii! &#39;. I95!"lvtr. Pltilby has been sub&#39;cct to the closest &#39; 1*"investigation. and that tltereiw:-ts no eti-dence to show that he was responsible"
for warnin Burgess and Maclean, butthat. while he was in the Government set!vice. he carried out his duties competently
and conscientiously. I have givensrajfar too much. but I am willing to gage
way once again._ ,-,-_.e 3  .,.&#39;tt._.-Z. A, . C -
Mr. Raymond Gower  Barry!: Couldthe hon. and gallant Gentleman saywhether he heard the name of Mr. Philb-5at any time before he happened to readin an article in an American paper?-*.=&#39;=-&#39;_. - - -   -- -,5" ";-.If."t"=
I Lleut.-Colonel Lipton: Yes. the name
has bccn.tl&#39;|e subject of comment toemonths and months past in this-country.-.-"»-isThe name has been literally hawlredabout. As a matter ot fact. tl the hon.
Gentleman lalres the trouble. he will secthat one paper. the  Daily Sketch. pub-
lished a special interview with Mr. Phtlby;3rd October last. It must not be sug
ested that the American article to whiE have referred. while it may be the rstmention in print Eossibly associating Mr.Philby with the t ird man. is necessarilythe rst mention or d_iscussion___ol his
name in this country,_;&#39;.,_ =;5;_.;J y-. ea;
The Foreign Seeretary&#39;went on to&#39;say
that he has no reason to conclude that
Mr. Philby had at any time betrayed theinterest! of this country, or identied hint-
self with the so-called third man,....iI
indeed _there was one. New we are en- -
cause I am not quite sure what the51, ..
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narrowed down by mid-April. 1951. Mr.Philby was not one! If so, will he please _say so? A statement about that would &#39;
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ts-it Former Foreuit Ofoei tuovamaett tsss opteran-onappm-na&#39;r mg.. [I.1r.ur.-Cot.ot~:et. Ltt>rott.2 ~==&#39; @&#39;r~&#39;~ l-.-into the Prime Minister on 5th October
last. That is a quite serious statement to
rnalte. but I make it because I ttm abso-
lutely convinced that I am serving thepublic interest by fort-tn? the Government.and in particular the oreign Secretary,
to provide much more information than
has been provided hitherto. .. .. es. .. .
It may be that I have some other in-
formation which. as it involves what was
said by Secret Service agents. I cannottutote In this I-louse. What I suggest to
t e Government is that the case for some
inquiry. rst. into the stalling srran o-ments oi the Foreign Oice. and,seconty,into out security sen-iccs. has been made
out It will be found. if both these ill-
quiries ttre embarked upon. that manypeople will be indu@ to give inlet-ma=tion. especially to a private tnqui &#39; whichwe hope will be made by s Higlh Courtjudge into the Secret Service. Perhaps
people will be more willing to give infor-
rnation than they have been up to now. .
Mr. Nutting: May I ask the hon. andfallant Gentleman to be good enough toonward to my right hon. Friend the
Foreign Secretary the evidence upon which
he is basing his charges against lvir. ana-
by? I quite understand the reluctance of
the hon. and gallant Gentleman to bring
that evidence before the House of Corn-mons. but rhaps he would bg goodenough to iticrward it to my rig t hon.Friendxf ut iii s_;# :..-4.-¢ - .2. i-.t_.».&#39; &#39;_.-..-_
. Lieut.-Colonel Lipton t No. I am pre-.
pared to forward that information to I
judicial member of the Privy Council--a
High Court judge-who, as has been sug-
gested from this side of the House. should
catty out an investigation into the opera-ilions of the Secret Service and who should
report to the Prime Minister "in a private
report. Surely that i_s not an unrcasong
Em  I_I,iakFf- rt. 1- 12:; &#39;.-at nl whit:
All &#39;I want to say. and I must rapidly
draw to -s conclusion. i[H0t~t. Msstnznsr;
 Hat, hea-.r."} Before l draw to a con-
clusion. I want to saylthat I will not?
be gagged by anybody in this House-or
outside in the performance of my duty.
[Hora Mestaetts: " Say it outside!?! Even
Mr. Philby has not asked for it to be
repeated outside. Let us leave it at that
[or the time being. --;tt.:;.;&#39;::&#39;.tq&#39;-,2; :.:.. rt
II l&#39;92 I4- In the course cl carrying "out &#39;wlilt"!
believe to be my public duty as 1 Montiber of Parliament I say quite deliberately
-1-wand l think that when the verbal nicer?
tics of the Foreign Secretary: statetneai
areexamined in the OFFICIAL REPORT bi
tnortow it will be found that I am instilled
--that I will not make any withdrawal at
Eliot pr_esen_t. The whole tendency d the
_ 1--____ 2" &#39;t&#39;. -&#39;1 l&#39;=&#39;r is Pf-"1-I--=&#39;¢f-7
; The whole of the debate will have been
a complete waste of time unless it is fol-lowed by one or both of the inqttirielwhich ttulte a number of hon. Memberson _bot sides of the House are&#39;ver&#39;y&#39;
enrrous to see instituted ii me cariiesi
Pos.bkLmPmii&#39; 2: rt.-tr; &#39;c.&#39;-2 65.2315; ts-ta
Mr. Dalnes: In spite of the interven-
tion or the Minister of State. I think that
my hon. and gallant Friend owes the
House an answer. The only evidence hehas brought against Mr. Philby is -I
quotation in the American Press which
emanated.- apparently. from -o -BritishMember of Parliament. lie is a lawyer,
and kt-.0--as that that is not evidence, and
I think he should withdraw what he said.
".1"; 1&#39;L.&#39;.T Lil» .l&#39;.. ..| .Jt-. GI850 P-rm -I  ;--&#39;» r>- :4 2:-a.Mr. R. Btooman-White  kutherglealg
The hon. and gallant Gentleman the
Member for Brixlon  Lieut.-Colonel
Lipton} has been somewhat diuse. and
1 little dillicult to l&#39;ollow.. I shall turn
my attention to one phrase only, in which
he brushed aside the whole speech-which
eta uvelcotud on hem sit!-..s-of my rigm
hon. Friend the Foreign "Secretary as
interesting political philosophy. Myfight hon. Friend: main theme was that
in the conditions of the post-war world
we are again facing I security problemwhich has not had to be faced since-thewars of religion. We aregzlealitzg withthe &#39; -extremely. ditlicult Pant! clicate
balance which has to be struck between
the needs of national security and the
rights of indidual liberty. &#39;&#39;j-" &#39;-&#39;1 {l~&#39;L
."-We must have eonstat&#39;ti&#39;and diieult
decisions to make a&#39;s to bowIar&#39;any
action is justified on suspiciort.&#39;. After
listening to the hon. and gallant Member.one is at least quite clear where he stands
on that.- He rs in favour of acting-on
ll.l5piCi0l&#39;l. OI smearing on suspicion. J1! , rs :1 t.-
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I593 Former Foreik" 0155? TNO92&#39;E.92lBER I953-I Ocinlsgippearhrfeti-&#39; IQ; N W
directinf public suspicion on to an in-
divldua against whom nothing at all has
been pro-ed. We must leave it to his
own conscience to straighten out what
that may cost in personal sttllering to
the wile, children and friends Of the
person involved. _ -.3 .- t..;l. - t.tu..=s-... -.
Other and serious issues have beenraised. The hon. and gallant Member. in
his conclusion. stress: that. apart from
the general question of balance betweenliberty and security. there were the prob-
lems of whether or not there shou d be
in investigation into the eiliciency oi the
security services: and whether or not
there should be further investigation into
personnel and stalling. oromotion and
security arrangements within the Foreign
Service. The hon. and gallant Gentleman
the Member lor Britten is in favour ofboth such iniuirics. I differ from him,
Ido not see t at any case has been, made
out tor eitl&#39;ter.,;_ gt 1-,-__~j-,. ;.;_ _~¢_t- _ |,.._
!1tere has been public agitation. andthat public agitation is admitted! a&#39;seri&#39;-ous actor. The aftermath of the Press
comments. ably stimulated, or followed,
by the hon. and gallant Member, has
given rise to a public uneasiness and-&#39;-I
agree-it public demand for some kind ct
action. But is action justified iust bei
muse there has been a good Press story!
Has any stronger case been made out?
Let us be very careful about_the ground
pntvhich wfearetoact. tbvt. .-_. 5---_» . -
We know that public anxiety arising
out of the Alger Hist atlair caused wide-
spread uneasiness and was followed by
disastrous repercussions in the United
States. It is very easy to say that it can-
not happen here. In n very minor way
remarks of the lion. and gallant Member
have shown how near to the wind it is
possible even tor the iiouse of Comrnons
"5 an-,"..;.-t=:_:1ti&#39;..» 4; 22.; &#39;r.i:a-aft t "
.  usbe quite sure beforewc embark
on investigations. . There are four quite
separate issues. and they have been eon-
fttsion in the public mind and in the hon.
and  gallant Gentlemat-ts. statement;
Firstly. there is the question of Burgess
and Macleao being Soviet agent»-ought
it to have been found out earlier?- Then.
that they had certain Communist contacts
in the -t.Init&#39;ersity--should more direct
securit action have been taken on thosegrottntl :Thirdly. there is the case that
they were personally undesirable--that92 this is our Al ar Hiss affair. and theIt.__ -. --IQ .
raises the disciplinary inspect lti"llIe"-
Foreign Service. Finally. there is the;
question of whether or not the Govertil
men! ought not to have said more. &#39;and_
said it earlier in their statements.- &#39;.?&#39;!
T I will try quite briey to deal with
each of these four headings The rst
is: _what is the ground lor demanding &#39;a&#39;t&#39;--~=-"-"-&#39;
the present stage that there should be tit
investigation into the security services?Public interesthltas been aroused, but lefIts to see t is in o rtiott; Surestingy the public t-tasprseglt is only oi: e
corner oi the battieeid on which there is
ur-ceasing conict between the rivalIntelligence services of the great Powers. &#39;
They have seen one corner of one actiott,&#39;
and even in that we were not doing id
badly. We have been told that I iii
thousand to one chance was just coming
oil. Out of 6.000 suspects. the security
services were about to take action against
one man to whom it had been narrowed, .,tt.--p»--
4!..
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d0;n_t &#39;e;- ~_-&#39;. ..-. -- ...-; 4.... c¢4.ul,"" -&#39;- &#39;..--~.-.. , . . ,
Reviewing the eld as a whole, is their"public interest in this sufcicnt groundsor demanding an inquiry into the security
services? . H 1&#39;. z . "":".""&#39;"HtI&#39;
Can one etivisage. &#39;yvitl&#39;|oI.t&#39;t&#39;kttot;&#39;i&#39;ng&#39;,-.
whether we are doing well_&#39;or_badly1;
lndced, how well we ma be doinfnobody outside the stnallzst possible» -- -
group ought to ltnow. One sees fro" ~Soviet staternentt that tnany promi-teg;people. members of Communist Govern;
mcnts and the like. who have fallenfromfgopular favour have been, or are said toave been. in touch withthe allied or-_
Western intelligence services. Even "iti per cett_t._.t_>t&#39; that it true. we are doinfin sh!  - &#39; .&#39;.t&#39;.:&#39;. vi -1 v&#39;:?t...-:T&#39;r:t-"tt=92&#39;f&#39;
_ If there had been no recent public out,try or clamour about espionage eases.should be a neat deal more  ..nothinf bad been heard of Soviet agents!_l shott d have thought that there might beI" -_;.; 2;
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I &#39;
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more cause for alarm. All this outcrjiYY1&#39;=-?5-"has arisen because in one case there twas »_;_._.;;.,_¢_._
s near miss. &#39;-We have been told that the" -
trap was just about to close on these=_-¢-~-
s 1nale. If it had closed. it would have &#39;
n a great successlor us. because under
interrogation they might have divulged I l
great deal of valuable information about?
the I&#39;iussia|.t&#39;security services. in fact. it a
just missed and they got away. is that-
tufcienl ground for demanding I search?-tn: inquiry mm the security =mta=o==s_-*do not think that it is. --Z L44-1-&#39; -T-&#39;-r_t31&#39;l,  . .. ,  ____,..- . _ - ----V 9t"s;&#39;":: ~;~r__nun. ..  &#39;4". ___- .,,_,_.;5us.,_=&#39;.-._=?- - -#1 .e~ --  -  ..--e=».-..»-.--~--1¢.~1t.>t~- ---- .&#39;3? &#39;<""lt:.l:--I-  "&#39;- -&#39; -- &#39; "   ._ . e ,&#39; _ _ _ h _ ! <___- ___J-.-__ __&#39;~ _",_. ,. . 4t&#39; .. - -J;-D "7._-. : _ - * _  ....."._.-&#39; --- - &#39; &#39; &#39; " -&#39; . . .- .   __- _ ~ I . H &#39;_,_&#39;_- ___.__. _ » -1-:~ H" _ . __ _, _,,__,,. -. . ..o-
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-I595 " r Ferns» OM. -&#39;2 Now-:t-tntzrt" 19$: OiciaisDisirppettittnee I- are Bsoottm-9292&#39;mrn.] , ;-3&#39;1 .-,,f_-;. h &#39;e {ll lenowaroughly what happensw en t ere ts a ovcrnment inquiry. TheDepartment under inrestilgation startszreparationt to defend itsef against thevcstrfatron to show that rt has not doneso bad y after all. We all know that. We
have seen it hapmr: in various Gm-err»
ment Departments. A rear number oipeople start spending their time preparing
it tr anntnoreroo ey veoogetting on with the day to day job wiring
they should be doing. ! __ _,_ 7 &#39;."&#39;,&#39;..
1 I entirely agree with eve hin thathas been said on both siges Jib? i-glouseh eed to " t &#39;t&#39;i&#39;....t°n..t§&#39;.n_ nniiétil,-..°.=i§Z;§tsecurity semces.- not t in t at
because they have failed to make anirrest in this case there are adequate
grounds for an inquiry. which can do not_c1h_er_than impezliegheirrday-:0-day NOELThis is not iusti un ess t ere ts. over
91; whale eld, :11 leelié thqalt thpyisre a ing own on eir  . at eetngcannot be found in thils House or in the
popular Press. - &#39;
. Mr. Dalnes: On that point. did the hon.
Gentleman read a very interesting articlein the  Qbserver a weelr or two ago by
1 man who was s Russian espionage
agent. according to the article, against
Germany until I947. He pointed out that
the withdrawal of these men to Russia
was quite contrary to the usual Russianractice. and he therefore suggested tha§£ was because of fear of interrog_ati_on
ind hreair down and of information being
given that they tool: that action. It that
as so. surely it is s very important reasonfor an inquiry to be held?!" _-.__ _. vb.
3" Mr. Brootnan-92lltite&#39;: I do not agree
that that follows. I said that we scored
a near miss. It bears out my point that
had we had these people in time it wouldhave been s great success. Let us seethis thing in proportion. . 2 _J__&#39; a _
. -i stm not concerned to protect the
security services against the inquiry. i I
arn only concerned to see that we do notlose more in tryliitltg to create elcieneythan we gain. e Soviet services wit
whom the Western sen-ices are in com-
petition, have great advantages. On the
repressive side. they have the full
machinery of s police state. On the
oflensive side. they have the system at Ination which M * greatest virtue on
no Ib§* &#39;. tr.-
- -:-.¢:.-.1-= -..&#39;.;. .-.-.&#39;._:&#39;----&#39;+r&#39;-1-"s""&#39;=&#39;5§». - r - ~&#39;-~ ~- --under-eover work. &#39;I&#39;heir&#39;nation5,l heroesof the past were all men who. in Lenin&#39;s
phrase. had To know hunger. wort
illegally, and be snonyrnous."- All their
thinking is geared to that sort ct thiThat gives them an advantage. The xunderstand that sort of work.
tnreurgence services probably have tnucb
more money and resources than our
P°°Pi¢-7 ._  3.-.:.-c.r- H-;=&#39;.~.::t. 2 -I5-.-
_ But they have s weakness. Periodically;
qui_te_[requently, they indulge in ptjmggand blood-letting. which must be iaust
about as debilitating as medieval medi-
cine. To knock all the heads of the Sovid &#39;
Chief of Secret Police and his various
assistants may be good for promotion,but _it cannot iead to the ellicient tune-tiomng of the Depanrnent. Unless s very-~
strong ease is made. I srn not in favourof messing around in I similar though
milder way in that Department of our
own against whom there is no soiid
ground for suspecting that on balance it
ts not doing fairly well. My right hon.Friend the Foreign Secretary paid the
Security Services an eloquent tribute=.-and only he and the Chiefs of Stan and ifew others are in s position to see the pie-
ture as a whole and to measure the
successes it has been achieving, - .-v-=1.-.;
-Let me pass to the sceond&#39;poirit.
During their undergraduate days. thesemen had Communist associates." Tltereis
no crime in that. Indeed. the only thingthat has been proved against Mr. Philbyis that he had Burgess staying with him
and he had certain Qmraunist friends.He may not have been verg wise in hischoice of friends. but what on. Memberat this House could say that all his
friends were people against whom no
shadow of suspicion could ever be ea? -
That point has been adequately dealtWith. &#39;::;. t.t-- -&#39;.:*n!i &#39;1-1?. 1-J1 :&#39;:3tr;~ ;.dt:it.,1&#39;Tv
I should like to come to the uestionof the stalling of the Foreign Ogce de-
nartrnents and the question. which hasbeen cogently argued from both sides oioi the House. as to whether at this stagethere is s case for further investigation
and reform of the Foreign Oice admini-
strative machine. I think it was the hon.
Mernbet for Hammersrnith, North  Mr.Tourney! who said that there was rubli:uneasiness because there was a celiugthat the personal judgment of the seniormembers of the Foreign Olce had beenll fllil-t-ct-":1.-n:.:;n;_EIm==12-;. £&#39;::tr ~.-_~.= A
_ _ _ _ - . We-1 is &#39;
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1591 -farmer foreign Odi» 7 NOVEMBER I955 oftills .:isappearoiu I r
Mr. C R. Ilnbsnii  Keighley!: Hear.
helix. .r *1 2." ..-.," ."&#39;:.-. __ ..-- - -   ~-. &#39;e.= 1-&#39;-r.&#39;"&#39;&#39; .92ir. Brooman-hitet That is Qn tin-
portant point. It is obviously true that
the judgment ti&#39;as_at fault. ;_ ; _,q __
" Mr. Robson: The record of Burgess
was well htown before ever he went Into
the Foreign Ollioe. That is the gratiimen
of the charge of man" hen.  wthis side and on the hon. Met-ubers own
side ol the House. We want to hiioiv
what people were doing ever to start the
llllll.  -&#39;t:"i so &#39;..at.l: en; lt&#39;r=&#39;icI!.r J!-T, . -. . 1,.--&#39;..92lr. Brooman-White : The point I was
making is that after the war there was ngreat change in the whole Eystetn withthe reforms instituted by Mr. rnest Bevin
-the great change in the wt-hole structure
d tlie Foreign Service, the bringing iii
of it consular service. and the rest of &#39;1.
The numbers were vastly increased. In
those circumstances, it is quite obvious
that the senior personnel must have lost
some of the contact which had previously
existed between members of the Foreign
Service and that they had lost the intimate
touch with and the intimate knowledge
of their subordinate staff. -It may well
be that the Foreign Ollie: was slow in re-
organising itself. in instituting the system
of condential reports and similar things
which have now been instituted; but
again one must say that the reasons which
have been given today seem convincingly
to carry the point that the necessary
reforms have now been made. In present
circumstances, the dilliculties arising from
that major reorganisation have been over-
come. To my mind. no evidence has been
edt&#39;aneed to the eoritratyf Time is rnri=
ing Short, M_l¬_i__d;Ili_92lS&#39;l abbreviate my
m.a"&#39;§* . 1.5 -.-at nut snow .&#39;.}IIlr nsar.t."::i
I The whole tenor of the debate has been
to stress the extremely diicult problems
in striking the right balance between
security and individual liberty. I am sure
that the feeling of the country and of the
i-louse is behind the Government in ensur-
ing that we do not depart from our tradi-
tional attention to the rights oi" the
individual and the y maintenance . at
personal liberty.-if rel. r: tr: tr::1.&#39;i:-t &#39;12?"
.&#39; Y.-1;-.. 111 or-J» is-4&#39; I--_l95 plni &#39;:.&#39; ;c-:1,&#39;;,2&#39;,_}&#39;e. GI".-G"f"""tr""
Mr. Alfred Roberts [Blyth!: The lion.
Gentleman the Member for Ruthergicn
 Mr. Brooman-White! has resisted theFroposal put forward b my right hon.ricnd the Member for {£92ilSi&#39;l3l&#39;ll, $o.itli
ii D zi_ ___. . - _&#39;__ __ _ _ , _ -._&#39;_  ;!.;;r;=-;__1;&#39;;;3:l4.;,--_a;n§&#39;-JT.::2$J"af_:&#39;I:_gn- . _ - . , -1- _. -.4 Mr. H. Morrison! that there ihoiildbe
I judicial inquiry into the Seeurity.Ser-  -
vices. and he produced as his main argn&#39;- "
inent tor that that the Maclean incident .
was a  near miss, that the Security Sch &#39;
vice had narrowed down to Maelean an
inquiry in which there had been 6.0%
suspects. and that Maclean just escaped &#39; "
the trap at the last nionient. I suggest
that it is for tl_iat_v_ery_reason that thufe "
99¢? F9 Pt it 1"4!?&#39;iimii1ii-...n...r=a--_- .
- It must be remembered that the atti- ..&#39;.-
tude of our allies throu hout the world.and particularly; the Ignited States til
_America. to t e eschan e of atomicsecrets is conditioned by their tear of tit -_»f- -condence in our seeurityaarrangements _
_liid our ability to ensure t t their secrets.  1&#39;
imparted to us as friendly and t.&#39;-O-0pctl-
tit-e allies. will not go to it foreign Power
because of either the iaitity or the inetTi-
cieney of our Security
fore. the proposal to have _: judicial -1-
lnguiry is one which. I hope. the Prime -e
Minister will not ii litly turn aside  O-night. I hope that he will undertake t
give it some consideration. _-- 1"-"-&#39;-_":&#39;-w.r-
.&#39;-..-
&#39; What&#39;*we&#39; Want is security virifhbiit -
&#39;Mc_Carthyistn. I very much regret that  .
one Of my hon. Friends mentioned in the
debate the name of an individual atlas -
than Maelean and Burgess. because that eis exactly what happened in the United
States. t was because the United States y .
Jhdministration refused themselves to?iii-
quib into I number oi rumours andallegations about their security that  McCarthyism arose. and if the &#39;Trurnat&#39;t
Administration had not brushed aside the "
allegations which were being made and
had examined their own security arrange-
have been born. . McCarthy stepped into .-
the vacuum created by the refusal of the
United States Administration to took intoments. then lricctlliyiimi eotild-never
their own arrat&#39;tgements.- We ought-to s,-_._.
learn from the lessons of the United Stats .---.--- -and the case of Algar Hist. -*3-"=15 1=-&#39;!i-"-"-&#39;-=~=
I agree with the Foreign Secretary that 2:-*"
the standard of our Foreign Service is
hi h and that the Forei n Service is one """""&#39; 2 - E
oi whitiii we can be" very proud. Fit if
all the more to be regretted that we have 
the case ol Burgess and Maelean._ The
ease has often been referred to ls the
mystery olllie missing di lotriats. but-it s =has not been a mystery igr many yeatl .- -
now. and reading the White Paper is rather
like reading the back les ol one of om -
daily newspapers. The story has not been "
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1 [ML ROBENSJ ti 1&#39;".-r:*r&#39;!! 1&#39; &#39;*&#39;added to today, except that the Foreign
Secretary termed them "traitors."- andthat it has become clear that they arebehind the Iron Curtain. and. presumably.
working for a foreign Government. .
Ihe Foreign Secretary said he acceptedthe doctrine of Ministerial responsibility.
and none of us would want to depart
from that doctrine. but the doctrine of
Ministerial responsibility. to be acceptedto the full. presupposes that it is the duty
of Ministers advisers--and that it should
hatebeen the duty ol Ministers advisers
in the past-to keep Ministers informedot What it is im ortant they should know.It is strange that the Security Services
can have investigated 6.000 suspects and
yet the rst time my right hon. Friendthe Member tor Lewisham, South. whowas then the Foreign Secretary. Itnew any-thing about this was on the very dayMaclean and Burgess left this country.
1 lay there is something wrong about
a security system that works within s
vacuum and works without some con-
sideration of the responsibilities of itsgglitieal chief. About 6.000 suspects wereing dealt with over a long period.Therefore. it seems to me that the Secre-tary of State should have been informed
a very long time before that that thisinvestigation was going ott._g _. 2; 1
- I agree entirely with my hon. Friend
the Member for Coventry. East  Mr.
Crossman} when he says that Burgess andMaciean as such are not important anylonger. What is important is the lessonsto learned from them. Two things
emerge. One is the question of estab-Iishmcnl within the Foreign Otliee. itdoes not matter what the Foreign Secre~lazy may have said earlier today, orIn eed what the Prime Minister will saylater. the tact is that the public and manypeople in the House are ciluite sure thatwithin the Foreign Olce t ere is a close
circle of §c_o92 er up "_ [or ones friends.
_ Mr. Nultiug indicated disser_tt.ff &#39;,":&#39;§
Mr. Robens : The right hon. Gentleman
shakes his head. but if that is not the easehow can it be that a couple of drunks. n
couple of homosexuals well-known in theCity. could for so long occupy important
posts in the Foreign Oicc? There is no
commercial organisation anywhere thatwould not have red them years ego.
]lr_t1errupriort.]___&#39;l&#39;he Prime Minister
stna] l
_ _ ... --VA . 1- &#39; __ _- _. &#39;_-i I  n &#39; _ 7&#39; 0&#39; &#39; _ :  -&#39; "" " ". .. e_ _ .  - _; .3. .- "-f &#39; .. _   -r ~ ~ "&#39; __ __ M _,__________ _ r hr J,-QM-erg-e_ ._.-e """""- -&#39;""""."_" ."&#39;..."&#39;_,L""&#39;.."5"/-,._¢;¢."7-a.::7...-. ,__ 1-I.-,.~ ..- r I-----~,---&#39; * , __ 1-... 1 wraaiys _ _ _1____;._ ..._.._ __ 4 _ __._;.. __ _| _ o_ H g_-2; . -2.--37&#39;-~&#39; ~ ~ or-__"&#39;_ 7&#39;.   --  __ ._.. t- -.  . &#39; 92 -. &#39;1.- 1-.. -...... --- &#39; __ _-. V. -» - -
.n t """,.,. .. -on-ta pears to be asking who put themthere.&#39;lJhe right hon. Gentleman is melting I
mistake in turning this into s politicalFairly issue. _Maclean went Qinto theoreign Otlice in I935. __This is not _.|,
question of when these people wens
engaged. This is a question of the estab-
lishment of the Foreign Olce. becausethe lfrirne Minister does not make these
_ar_spotn|mcnts,,,.,,= .,_.,.,.--_t 3-, -,;_-"¢&#39;-;I&#39;§_1;"*§}&#39;
The Foreign Secretary does not makeall these appointments. The appoint;
ments are recommended to Ministers onthe basis of the advice of their advisc|i.&#39;
The Minister does not go through thetlistand say. We will now promote JackJones as head of the Department. He
takes advice. I repeat that there is a feeltlug in the House and among the publicoutside that there is this cover u ."within the Foreign Ofee and I say thin!this i_s I matter which ought to b_e,i?92icsnga[c.d&#39; » a-5 :ri .&#39;s:t&#39;-2.1;. M.&#39;Tll9_Mr. Nuing irrdinzred dr&#39;.s.ser|&#39;I, fh-i -"-&#39;-. - ~ - Iv 4! &#39;:f:n&#39;
. Mr. Rubens: The right hon. &#39;Geritle;&#39;
man goes on shaking his head. Let itshave a look at Maclcan and at one
incident in Cifst, -_-;;_,--,_-,t~_-_-&#39;,;. -ef _~1_§~-What ltagpencdl What does the WhilePaper say appened? It says.&#39;1!&#39;g*-"-=*;_
In May, mo, 4 -nine serving "ifttnMajesty&#39;s Embassy. Cairo. Maclcan was guiltyof serious misconduct and sutlered I form 0!breakdown which was attributed to overworkand excessive drinltini. .._,_ 5;, -_.n._....- --,_,;
What are the facts about one case?_, .I_will not deal with all of thetn--about I
ii ht that he had with an Egyptian guard.agout the breaking of an Embassy col-
league: leg one boating trip. 1.5;; ;»;;,~. -
&#39; Maclean Ind I friend, bolh&#39; ii! i
drunlren state. went into the at of a girlwho was the librarian of the United StatesEmbassy in Cairo. She was absent. Theyforced their way in and then began todrink all that was available. Having donethat. they pushed a lot of the girl:clothing down the lavatory. they smashedthe table and they knocked into the bath
ts hca slab of marble xed as a shelfover ihe radiator. It broke the bath.-
They returned to a at in thé same build-
ing belonging to a colleague. Maclean
was with a man friend. and he had homo-sexual tendencies when in drink."_;__&#39;t&#39;.._.;,"
- As the Minister of State shook his head. .
I am now giving the facts. As I was t
saying. the! returned to the llat belonging
. SL1. it-4 - 
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150]" Farmer Foreign Oiél &#39;l"&#39;llOVE
to a colleague in the same building. They
collapsed on a bed and fell asleep. It was
here in the evening that subsequently his
wife found Maclcan and, with help from
s sister, half-dragged a completely sodden
husband downstairs to a car and tool: him
home. . . - - ; . , .
s ls the right hon. Gentleman telling me
that everybody in the Embassy did not
lino: about that incident? ls he suggest-
ing that this White Paper reveals one-hall
of that shocking story? It was not the
on]; incident, but what happened to him?
This poor, overstraincd. overworked
gentleman came back to this country, was
given six months lease of absence. and
then was given the job in the Foreign
Om -..;;: it Lt: 1; 1lTr 1&#39;"-7" 7&#39;7".
The Prime -.921inister_:&#39; was ins _to
blame?  &#39;."_;,?*.i.;;,.;.f.&#39;.:&#39;;";; .3 5&#39;
lair. Roberts: i am not aiiocating blame
to individuals. I am saying that within
the Foreign Ollice there is a close circle
oi oovering up. I repeat to the PrimeMinister and to the Foreign Secretary that
it does not matter how many times either
stands at that Box and says that it is not
I0. I do not believe that the public will
accept that this is not the tact. ..
Disgracelul behaviour of the Itind in
which hiacican indulged, not only inCairo but in Washington and in this city,tvhicit was well lcnown within the Foreign"
Olce. ought to have been dealt with
years ago and he should have been
sacked. So I say that there is a need tor
W0 iqm¢5_I&#39;."1 .-: *. e.t.I 1.: ._: Lt :11-- - - . ep-1 .. _v t - .Mr. C. Panncllt Betorh my right hon.
Friend leaves that point. will he ask
somebody representing the Foreign Otlioewhether eta taetsof that incident weree  . cl _. .._~---- -I g  J_ . .. _-____;-,._,:_._:..--.. -.- &#39;~t ~..   e»
ever bro"?! to the notioe of the then Soc-  &#39;-I "°Pi &#39;ha&#39;.ill"° iiiiillcnmliilsiiéi i&#39;°m5
rctary of talc for Foreign Affairs? ll he
was not lcquainted with those facts it is
wrong to ask the Minister to carry the
can" in the last resort. Ministerial re-sponsibility depends upon knowledgebeing brought to the go itical head. andI say that tt was not rough1,_g,;g Mt ],_.
Ur. Rubens: That is the point I have-
hcen snaking. that if the dxtrine oi
ministerial responsibility is accepted, andI accept it. it is the responsibility of the
Departmental advisers to keep s the
Minister fully informed. I was asking
whether these [acts were ltnnwn to theindividuals concerned. because I &#39; mthese .rnen were protected and excuses
were made for their drunke &#39; nness and gar-"
versions. ordinary working men who allC . . . _ . .sreER&#39;tsss&#39; otn.=nn-- ttsppssntsiss iéi
I say. therefore. that there should betwo inquiries. There should be one intq
recruitment for the Foreign Office, There
should be an investigauon of what hashappened since the changes decided uponin I943. whether they have broadened thl
basis oi recruitment, whether s close circle
exists or not and in what way covering
up takes place. That kind of inquirycould be made easilg by a number dmethods which the rirne Minister can
cmisage _for himselt&#39;-either by PrivyCouncillors. by 1 Select Committee or by-sorne other method. If we want to wipeout of the public mind the idea that thereis any covering up ingid¢ 15¢ F0; &#39; 4Office then we rnust have an inqui-ryittwhich these facts can be brought out," &#39; &#39;
The"second in u&#39; should  Ila?-1; _ q lg _ beta rela-__ .t1on_t; security an this could not be _ .carrtc out by a Select  _Jotr_trrtittee_ olthis
House. We suggcsi that tt should be doneby way of a judicial incgriry, the judges ....-_-- -+re rttng to the ltucal ead of socurr .uh: is the Primlzolvlinisler. If the riglhthon. Gentleman refuses such an in utry&#39;,&#39;the report of which obviously would bqprivate. other than to himself and his ittii,
mediate advisers, then we shall fall into .the same error as the United States Ad:ministration fell into, and we shall makqthings unhappy for marry Pggrtlg 1&#39;3 -seve l -1-: -1-   1&#39; &#39; " st an . .- .1 _, /_. -fa tan ,.:..;,_...;t ...-I ~.r.-..--2-.---L
Ot Burgess. what ss&#39;st that thesoc &#39; .Feoplc were able to say? Notltin egg? endced. but for the fact that he fcft tltii "
country. Burgess might easily be working: __at the B.B.C. today. He would have
red from the Foreign Office because he -was due to be red. Here again. we had¢00!,-I
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although what we have advomtod worm-..-11:-*
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the Service as com letel unrelia P y bk  :5 --192¢""° ""-l untitted to represent their country at home g &#39; -
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.  Ma. Rooms.! .=  -..-- ~ &#39;for a Communist Rmpalhiser from Ber-mondsey and anot er for a Communist
sympathiser trorn Cambridge University?
These are matters that trouble us and
trouble the general public. and we believe
that only inquiries on the lines that wehave indicated will do anything at all to
allay public disquiet about them. I hopethat the Prime Minister will not turn themlightly aside. but will recognise that hehas a duty to the House an the country.
and will be prepared to accept the sug-
gestions about inquiries made by theOpposition. -~- ;- .. ...... .. as - 1  - 1 - s .
_ __ 1  &#39;=1s".Ii: at .&#39;s"=:=&#39;.a&#39;-1--re: .. 9.22 p.m."". .  . - -
The Prime Minister  Sir AnthonyEden!: lean at least assure the right hon.
Member for Blyth  Mr. Robens} that Ishall not lightly turn aside any suggestions
which have been made in this debate.which. 1 must frankly say. is the one out
ot my thirty years experience of theHouse ot Commons in which I take part
with the greatest personal regret.
it so happens that nearly all my publiclite has lain in work with the Foreign
Oflice. For ten years I was Foreign
Secretary, which is a long time by any
standard. It was in i926. just after the
Locarno Treaties, that I rst worked
there. I have known individually. as
many right hon. Gentlemen have known.
many of the leading members of the
Foreign Service. The right hon. Mem-ber for Bishop Auckland  Mr. Dalton!
was one of my predecessors as Under-
=&#39;~r====1-."v~.*.....-.- .-:&#39;.:  "Yo
&#39;1 rnust start b sayin that this hasbeen a very sad tiby for tie Foreign Ser-vice. and a very sad day for our country.
too. because the reputation of the
Foreign Service is part of our nationalreputation. Personallg. 1 thinlewe couldhave done no other t an oller and bold
this debate in view at all that hasll3PPcl&#39;l¢d.ie -at -e-1 a§&#39;§ --.~-=3 at-rm  "
I do not want to stress the rsonafaide of it too much, but l shoulcnike to
any how much I agree with one observe.-&#39;
tion which tell from the right hon. Mem-
ber for Lewisham. South  Mr. H.
Morrison!. that whatever mistakes there
might or might not have been in this busi-
ness. one thing which is quite certain isthat nobody at the Foreign Othce at anytime. no senior oicial or other oici .vied to cover up anyjorm oi disloyalty
i° 1h°&#39;sm¢- "re"! -lr:r&#39;..&#39; -::t»r.&#39;!-:~t:.t not
st o as
rsiit-i-stare-*t1lt*~=.+92sit-.t-o ---t   ~f4..It is vet? important that wehave that c early in our minds.-think that anything the right honman said was meant in any waythat, but this is something that goesbeyond the connes of our discussion.I think that for the reputation of ourService. which is still very high in ueworld. we ought to make that absolutelyfkl.plain. It mistakes were made, they WHR;-anot that kind ct mistake; they were notmistakes even _remotely. tinged, withms!-l&#39;5li-lie  i...-1.--ah.-.* .=n-utini  ma
Before I oome to the subjeeto! the
debate. I want for a moment to refer to
what was said by the right hon. Member-for Lewisham. South at the beginning of-his speech. From our side of the HouseI should like to any a word about Will
Whiteley. because a though he was Chid
Whip ot the Opposition and earlier Chief
Whip of the Government. I am sure thatit would be true to say that he had count-
less friends on this side of the House and
not a single enemy. It is men like hint,who do the toiling and s=.&#39;:.-rk in this
Chamber quietly who do so much to make
our Parliamentary institutions possible.We should salute his memory from bothsides of the House in that spirit. a great.Parliamentarian though he was silent.;_.;.Now I return to the qtuestions I havebeen asked and to the dc ate. The righthon. Member for Lewisham. South said,something about the duties of the Foreign
Secretary and how heavy they were.
do not at all deny that. How could If
But they are heavy in a way somewhat-
ditlcrent from other Departments of State.The Foreign Oice is essentially a polig:making Department and therefore _
Foreign Secretary&#39;s duties are a strain, be-_cause at any hourot the dagcand mosthours of the night he may asked _to_make some decision which atlects policy.That does not happen in the same way |tt__other great administrative l_3cparte.=enL__
11 do not thintr that the rightGentleman meant to give the impression-it he did. I should like to correct It_--that on that account Foreign Sect-etanel
do not give pretty close attention to the
personnel of their office. both at bum!
and abroad. They do. and all important
appointments both at home and abroad.
certainly in my experience. were brouyito me. That brings t_t_&#39;_te to say aawardon the suhiect of the Foreign Set_921ce Itit is now and the reforms -oi which tl_I~
" -&#39;--I --t- P &#39; l__!-
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. .  "5 !%&#39;. -&#39;7">&#39;~"&#39;5?-&#39;-&#39;-~  _ .. . . . "&#39;.""""""1&#39;-""--&#39;5". ."&#39;m-. =5---&#39;-&#39; -- &#39;- ~ E:  ~ max i" ii I -1"7 -= ~ r " &#39;s.._&#39;  - .._. I-I~- .  e- --&#39;------- ~- -» _&#39;._ __ _._  . . ..- ---.   ~
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4 London and a Diplomatic Service. entire!
; separate. ln that year they were brought5 together; Before they vrere brought to-_gether.  an Le fairly reed at they hadn eertfainh faglyuclise afliliaéjgn withrest o I e rt rvioe. ey irere
pert of the Civil Service before the two
pined together. Then in 1943 we addto those two orgen&tior.s~thc Forcigwee as ll then was end! the DlpiOI;&#39;llllCreetwo numerica y v - aorganisations. the _Consular nndzommebctal and Dtp1Om3llC. We made the wholeinto was -wists ==rvi¢.=r_~s==.:-&#39;_ =.-.:r-t net V
One or two hon. Men-tbirrs in the de-Qbate have suggested that that was not ifvery good plan and that we should &#39;go&#39;baclt_ to considering pértting the Foreign es rt t-.-as. ma-tang it gar: or tne
ts a some y unw-or&#39; e. an
like to _tell the House why. The rst
that members of this I- emaForeign Service. trndeools
accept service either at homereason ts
garnered
thereby to&#39; , :-..,t.&#39;.&#39;,-..,Perhaps the purposes or thecontext ofthose re orms are not yet entirely under-
stw. tIthe.t ltapj-cited was that beforel9l!l there was a Foreign Oice in
Y._____....,_ _ "&#39;  - _ _ 1 ,V  .. -- -:.a-&#39;-mt-5"" P &#39; 2: H , __  &#39; ". ._~ =&#39;t-to _.  . ___._..,..,_...t.g1;-;.,-=-e~r*.&#39;r.e~..-. . Us-F; 92- .. _-.... .--;,¢I- ~"_;.* ....__  .t&#39;E_&#39;,1-s-.:"5?="*"&#39;.,. , . -&#39; . _;*-_- -&#39;% &#39; -L 1 i   0my rm.» Foreign outer 1 Novnitntzit toss oet¢i¢rt~§,,p¢e»o|ea 1
hon. Member for §o92_&#39;entry.__Bast _ t!-Ir?
lg:
ll
ed
n
rs:no  s
not go abroad. a Diplon1eiie&#39;j$e&#39;rvleeZi=l»
;&#39; which operated entirety abroad, a Con- -.solar Service again abroad and n Corn-"&#39;=rnercial Service yet something else. Th! "" "seemed nrreriy wron in these motleriftimes and that the tiing to do was I0!,bring all four Services together and to"trtslre it possible for members of all tour;to more trorn one to the other aoeordinrto where they were best tted to go. in _z-4-tr
"I em t1uite&#39;sure_ that thatis still the right one. and thatit is right;for someone ID the Consular  it he .-1shows the particular quality, to  *"&#39; "
an ambassador. as sorne have ln"reeent:"yrears. or for someone in Grade A of -._-_ -_oreign Service, who did n food&#39;con&#39;-sular job in some post. probab y learning-I
a great deal more ot_the aspect of coin-Ernereiai matters than he would otherwise! 1&#39;be able to do.&#39;,°" *-**"&#39;:&#39; -3,-&#39; t &#39; - .2 &#39; &#39; g -" &#39;-.&#39;.r&#39;.1-wt. itTherefore. my strong advice - _=House on all that is not to touch__th_es_e, I.-:-
lrrangement; yet... We tttitii givematter a little time to see how it is going, ~ -. -to work out. I do not want now anything; ~  »_in the nature of s formal review ot_ho9292t; * Ythese changes-some of which have only;been in tot-or tor e very leer jr&#39;¬.Ti""&#39;iT¬_.f
_ in tact. working out. But that does not: .-;r= &#39;1&#39;"_§;s;._ &#39;:
Q  ._
,_ ,......
es :-
-apruwi >
_"&#39; &#39;92 .-J.._ __-.- - *4 -
-4-. ~it-&#39;;;i1:
or abroad. That is somethin which can-not be asked of anybodf who is in theCivil Service today. rt fact. It themoment in the Foreign Qllice there "e&#39;three abroad to one at home. The lararproportion is still overseas. So any ages-tion of merging them with the tvilService more closely must be ruled out.
As a matter of fact, there are irery con-&#39;siderable tempera exchanger-and that.is all to the £001-exciton eswith theComrnonwealt Relations Oice. with theBoard or Trade and with the Ministry ofLabour. Those are all helpful anti. overand above that, today individuals do"sometimes transfer from the _Foreign_&#39;Oice to othcrDeparttnents,tn&#39; vtce_verse. That has been going on ever sincethe re!-arms were instituted. l nrn franiriye believer in those ref0rmS-it3mt&#39;a%t_¬-§_and I think that they are having ireffect on the worlting of the Foreigns¢fy|¢¢_.-75;-e&#39;-~ ---- It-~
When i nsired the Cabinet to approve
those reforms. my main concern then st-esto prevent the continuation of the ForeignService in its various De artrnents. to_prevent having n Foreign  gice that did &#39;
as n at.  -"-"&#39; &#39;4.-. ._., - - *.»,." ":. ----.&#39;-;: " W &#39;":,_,_t- wrot-I-&#39;1&#39;==1i5.5=.&#39;3&#39;*?r:t1"-:&#39;;ii»?*&#39;1T*--""m " E - - -  "- "&#39;-.~ -;:.-..:.:~-;.~".;"
J; 4 ,, . ~: I.-<;&#39;_&#39;-_ _ __ _ -A-  . . 4_&#39; _ .&#39;  ~ 1-___ _ .- - I 5 -92 -"*prevent us {torn taking any action wei -n??? -
thmlr t at any tune to make adjustments} s-545-5*! &#39;as they seem necessary as these reforrns, ~16; _f&#39; ,d¢"°i°P;_&#39;._&#39;= .-.. :.&#39;.&#39;.t,:..i sit? i &#39;_&#39;-e:..i:Li.-r:&#39;e;-*:-e&#39; .f_&#39;_;__ _f_I say Irartltlgi that I ¢leePl1?&#39;t&#39;eS-tell-int! &#39;*-="""&#39;"I know that t e whole House doesthat; ,_-_.;,;;. eMr. Bevin is not now here to take p_artj :.-_"_-_,&#39;.&#39;.in this debate tonight.-l I am t&#39;etreal1ng*tf:,.&#39;;,""-"nothing which ts not known to many_-,{;.&#39;2." IL:peoplcvrhen I say that we had many . &#39;discussions on this question of reforme-when Mr. Bevin succeeded me at tho=
Foreign Office I believe that they must!be given i iuii trial. when that has been
done. end. if the House is not satised!
with their working. then by all means-_let us have a review, but I do not want
to have that review now after such -11-rL ll &#39;snort speu of ettper|tnettt.&#39;? &#39;1y_t~=__:..;_:"r-tt&#39;t";"| " __ , . - -  2 1; II trill now deal with some of thequestrons which have been askedMaclean. and to which -the ri hr lion. A  &#39;"Member for Blyth add-.4. My  antif-gallant Friend the Member tor Perth and.~.4 ~n&#39;-P""
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i-l.a,.... --...[Tue Palms hlmrsrsml _.,_,.:; . ,.., .. -Cairo. in May. 1950. that is to say. until
he_had_been I8 months in Ceiro.;  _
Several people have said tonight that
the behaviour in Giro was so bad. There
had been the drinking bouts. which the
right boo. Member for Blyth described
with a wealth of detail. I. of course. did
not know about them at the time. I was
not in the Government. I make no wrniglaint; there is no reason why I should.
veral right hon. and hon. Members
have asked why after all that he was
not dismissed the Service. That is an
arguable proposition, and I have no doubt
that it was weighed very carefully in the
Foreign Ollice at the tune. .&#39; ;- j-j__ -
I am not going to say what I tvouId_
have done it I had been Foreign Secre-_
tary and had had to take this decision.I tninlr that it would have been an apati-
ingly ditlicult decision to take. The House
must remember. in all fairness, that up to
that time there was no hint or the re-
motest suspicion of treason, or of anything
remotely resembling it. "I&#39;herel&#39;ore. whatthe House is asking us to sady is. was it
wrong that this man who ha a brilliant
record should be given a second chance?
It is a subject on which I should hate to
be dogmatic in the abstract now. just
looking back on what has happened since.
I believe that there are a great many
employers who would take on a man s.
second time. I have known in regimentssomebody who had a pretty bad gp and
who, perhaps. lost i stripe as i result.
But he may come back not so long after
and prove hginiselfhin action__92vith lris__
°,°md°5- tr-.&#39; .~.;&#39; : :&#39;. at rf..:-&#39;-" _-..1.. ,..
I am not asking the House to judge this
%hank God I do not have to iudge it-.
and all I can say is that I think it is
rather harsh to say that there is nothing
I0 be said at all in favour of giving any-
body a second chanee. I think that is
a doctrine that this House should hesitate
about before It lays-it down. As forIus leave. it was not three months. as.
someone said. it was ve months leave
that he had; and after that I medical
examination.  &#39;  &#39; "_&#39;_
&#39;1 have been asked a number of qt|_es-
tions about the private contacts of Burgess
and Maelean. Many of them I cannot
answer. because I do not know the answer.
But this I can say. It was as a conse-
quence oi this which led us in i952. lol-
lowing on the examination which. quiteu o as  &#39;I . ..» &#39;-.&#39;.. -.-- -  l &#39; &#39;  &#39; l  &#39; -   _i=.&#39;i,&#39; ~__. &#39; &#39; V " &#39; 92.; ._;;.-..-_..-. 1. ..e. =&#39;-. -a-~ -- ¢ _»..-- -< Q y~e-~-&#39;:"&#39;=-"-I&#39;- -"l|5Q&#39;l_ Former-dn  &#39;1 NOVEMBER I951 Ocr&#39;dI3_- imppedraneq l§N_ i
rightly} I may so so, was sq in traits}by the previous Clovernrnent. to adopt,
these whole series of measures whidt W
have taken.;_ ,,_ ,_4 ,. .;-,,-_ ;T._I,¢;1.&#39;;£&#39;;,_»;_.|3
I was interested to watch the mood of
the House this afternoon as my right hon.
Friend described those measures-the.
" positive vetting." as it is called. Persona"
ally. I think it is right. and I Ihinlt_it
inevitable. But I do not pretend that Ilike it very much-going along to thetutor of someone and sayin  hat didyou really think of So-anal-so when he,
was in your college at So-and-so? " "It is
very disagreeable to the ordinary British
instinct. But I think we just had to_ do
[hat mu;-;h_  _,&#39;:-".~_.~. : ;;- 1&#39;. ":1:. . _ .~ &#39; ____ &#39; " " J- .4-...._Mr. C. Pannetl ro.se;f-___&#39;._.._u_.3_.;,_.,;_..|;_. _
The Prime Minister: I hope the bolt;
Gentleman will not interrupt me. unless
It is very irnportant. Let me get on a
little further and I will then give way.
I am sure that I shall be able to nish
tonight-not like the other night whenl could not; but that was my fault. iii 1&#39;}
What I was saying was that I think
this the minimum we had to do. and
also the maximum. in fact. that we could
do within the existing law. And therefore;
I believe that we have acted rightly in
the spirit of what the House would wish." i
&#39;Now let me answer another riuestion,
that I was asked. There is no reason to
suppose. I am told, that there is any
connection between the departure - ti-_
Burgess and the defection ot Otto John.E
That does not mean to say that we know,
everything about these Illlllgi, but that is
our It1IOI&#39;tTl3llOtl. I was asked also some-
Lhing which is snore irnwrtanti-and E
think that we must get this clear it we.
can-why was not the Fuchs treatment3-rplied to Maclean? My answer. after.
aborate researches. is that I think it was
applied to Maclean in exactly the same.
way. As &#39;1 understand it, what the
Government at that time. the Foreign
Ollice at that time. were trying to get was
evidence with which to confront Maclea&#39;nl&#39;
as Fuchs was conlrontéd with evidence»-
i10i- complete evidence. but enoughevidence to have a chance to get him to;
confess more._ g___  I J,  _.. F , _,g
As I understand it; the trouble about
Maeleao was that there was not anything
lilac the amount of evidence to enable_
h_im_ to be treated on that subject lI_
&#39; re .3 1. . _,__ .-
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I In -in Q I 1 F is1&#39;50! Former Forirlgn Oioe FNZDVE
Fuchs had been treated. But It was hoped
by using this method. to get enough
eiidenoe against Maelean to treat him
s cieally as Fuchs was treated. andtt the intention was exactly the Samein the Mac-lean ease as in the Fuchs case.
I tliinl: that is right. and l thinl: that is
necessary. but what the hon. Gentleman:
Y. . . si r. e.-cni lit»! !!i&#39;l""!!?.!;f Mr. Crossrnan: Surely. the trouble is
that Fuchs was not tipped oil," whereas
in the ease of Maclcan. if we understand
aright, the denial of secret papers to
Macleati gave hint warning?-i--&#39;5; P -;5..--
" _ 4 1&#39;_:&#39;J7 "&#39; as -"The Prime Minister: _-It wonder.- _llinow the hon. Gentleman said that-_~
I am afraid that I am not familiar with
all the details of what secret papers were
sierra and what were allowed to go
through. It could have tipped him off.but l imagine that it was very intelligent!done. 1 would rather doubt»-tliough
I do not ltnowwhetlier that was whattipped him oil. I was rather puzzled
when the lion. Gentleman went on to aslt
why the Governrnent at that time did
not warn the ports and is-iilidraw_ the
P355&#39;P_°m:~.:::&#39;;&#39;:a&#39;ic&#39;! r;&#39;r:ri* --  ".
_ Mr. Crosstnart: No. I did tiot&#39;say thatl
The Prime hliiiistert Well. somebodyelse did. That. most certainly, would
have alerted him completely. It would
have been 1 most fatal step to take.
because it we had alerted the ports all
round the couiitry-and they are very
numerous--it must have been known to
a very large number of people. and would
certainly have got baclc in due course to_
ltlaclean. Personally. it I may put myview. 1 think the Government were right
not to warn the ports and not to withdraw
the passports, but were right to try to
treat him as they treated the Fuchs ease!
lam sorry that. though it worlted in theFuchs ease. it did not work in this
T. " &#39;,&#39; ._.&#39; I-1... ,,_#L - »=.."92&#39;l 3.". l should like to sayione nal wordabout the question of the present arrange-ments in respect of the Foreign Oflicc. 1
say this deliberately. after having spent. I
can assure the House. very much more
time outliis topic than I would havewished over the last &#39;ear._ I an: cori-vintred, &#39; as Prime hginisier. thatForeign Otoe is now following &#39;a corr
and careful security rocedure, and tha .is standards&#39;are J the very high
Uhll _h
. ._ _ __,___;..;_==: i ---r .6T935 Gclills:-IJrsn,i>p&#39;et&#39;a}anc¢
shim in this Of &#39;hi3&#39;- other cotintry. Thudoes not guarantee us against future &#39;~l§45l¬lS. but it does give the strongest
assurance that l Can give to the House,.,...w
an-K"
J
or ._i &#39;-14.,-..
with all the responsibilities that rest  &#39;*;&#39;rne. that we have done all tltatwe C4?do Willllll on law.-.1 -- -f--. ~_- or .-&#39;_-1""
Now, I want to r:on&#39;neet&#39;with  tie ="i**"
§-eeurity Service and say somethi
…[truncated]

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Federal Writers' Project

[Three Anecdotes]
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[Father Says]
Mari Tomasi FATHER SAYS Recorded ir Write!' Section fi^ 1 4 134U 14 1 Granite City was gay in holiday mood. Spirals of red, green, yellow, blue, red lights colored the lamp posts and the band stand. Small Christmas trees…
[Father Says]
rary Tomasi 1. rontpolier, Vt. FATHER SAYS Granite City was gay in holiday mood. Spirals of red, g/e)n, yellow, blue, red lights colored the lamp posts and the band stand. Small Christmas trees blinked their de- coration…

Recent News

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Speculative Growth and the AI "Bubble" [pdf]
Article URL:https://economics.mit.edu/sites/default/files/2026-07/speculative_growth_AI_public.pdfComments URL:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48927409Points: 10# Comments: 1
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