Document text
T/WE /71
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #171
3/27/93
1:42 P.M. - 2=2s P.M.
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Tape 171!
STEVE: -- to him. I mean of course I don't
expect you to ever buy something like that. I wouldn't
myself if I was in your position. But --
JOHN: That's, that's pretty objective of
you --
STEVE: Well, no, but I --
JOHN: -- Steve.
STEVE: -- I'-- you know, John, I've always
been that way. I've never -- I'm not into supernatural
phenomena, and I'm, I'm an extreme skeptic. I guess
coming up with the kind of a background I have, being
into comparative religion, having some friends like Dr.
Libra phonetic sp.! of the University of Hawaii who
himself was atheistic but yet did a lot of comparison
studies in that sort of phenomena, witch doctors,
gur%s, that, that sort of thing. I mean I've weighed
the evidences myself. And I've never seen or believed
in anything like it.
So when I did meet David this is what I've
told some of the other negotiators. I mean it's not,
it's not a simple another cult and a cultic leader with
some bizarre this and -- there's more to it. There's a
logic here. I mean why would -- I, I tried to even
raise the question to them why would I leave my
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Hawaiian home which I said I'd never leave Hawaii. I
love Hawaii. I liked what I was doing over there --
JOHN: Would you like to go back there
someday?
STEVE: Well, no -- well, you know, if this
is all there was in life was this world, this earth, I
would go back there now. I'd go back there right this
moment.
JOHN: You know, I, I expect to leave this
world someday too. But in the interim, you know, I
want to be with my family and --
STEVE: No, I -- John, I -- that's
commendable. I mean that's the way it should be.
iJOHN: Enjoy the earth so to speak, you know
STEVE: But what, but what if there's a
source~in the world called the Bible which really is
true in its wholeness. And all these prophets --
finally the last Book of Revelation says that there's
time that comes when all those prophets are tied
together clearly as many pieces to a puzzle. Well,
then the logical thinker is going to look at that and
say maybe, just maybe.
Now to me there's never been 100 percent
perfection of evidence for anything. But what I've
always done for years is gone by a weight of evidence,
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1 whatever that weight would be. This is why I've come
2 to this -- let me --
3 JOHN: Yeah.
4 STEVE: -- term it like I see it. I, I see
5 Waco, Texas as a dump. I mean you -- I never liked
6 Texas in the first place. Nothing against the people
7 that are born and live here but I --
8 JOHN: Steve, Steve, I appreciate what you're
9 saying.
10 STEVE: All right.
11
12
13 . STEVE: Okay.
14 JOHN:
15 and, and --
16
f
nowjand I17 see --
18 JOHN: Yeah, I --
19 STEVE: -- I've got
20 JOHN: Okay. I got
21 time then to go through those
22: okay?
23 STEVE: All right.
JOHN: This is, you
But that's necessary. No one24
25JOHN: Okay. But remember that it was stated
to you earlier I think 1:45, right?
-Okay. So that we're coming up on that
STEVE: Well, I'm just looking at my watch
20 seconds past.
this requirement at this
rules again for safety,
know, the bureaucracy.
will be allowed to exit
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the building with a weapon. We tell you this for your
own protection.
STEVE: Well, that makes sense because in
honesty we don't want to harm you anyway.
JOHN: Yeah. If our agents perceive that
their lives or the life of someone else is at risk,
they will take appropriate action to ensure their own
safety. No one will be allowed to aim a weapon from a
window, as this may be perceived by our agents as a
threat to their lives or the life of others and compel
them to act accordingly. Anytime you exit the building
and are approaching our agents, you must fully comply
with any verbal instructions to avoid exposing yourself
to potential risk.
STEVE: This has been a station
identification.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Did you ask if anyone is coming out?
STEVE: Yes, I did. And, and they said they
didn't want to -- they all told me they didn't want to
speak about it on the Sabbath day. That's what they
told me. It was very strong.
In fact, two or three people when I just
walked away from the phone. They were already in a
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conversation about the Bible. They were talking with
this, this man, Jesse.
And that's when I said excuse me. I'm going
to ask a question of everybody here. And I posed the
question, and I said do you want to talk about it.
They said no and they said they didn't even, they
didn't want to say another word about the issue at this
time. That's what they all told me. So I came back to
the -- I waited then. And of course, then finally you
called.
JOHN: Okay. What, what time does your
Sabbath officially end indiscernible! --
STEVE: It will probably -- whenever sundown
is.
JOHN: Okay, sundown.
» STEVE: Usually, you know, we wait --
JOHN = Okay.
STEVE: -- a few minutes afterwards before
we --
JOHN: All right. You remember this, this
thing about the lawyer for David. Okay, we, we have to
determine if he has an interest in that area, okay?
STEVE: Okay. Tell -- run by me again what
you need --
JOHN: Okay, there's a lawyer ready to talk
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to him.
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
that again.
STEVE
JOHN:Is it the one his mother has --
Yeah. Do you know the name?7
Guerin sic! or Guerin or something?
Yeah.
Okay.
Reguerin sic!. _
Yeah, he's aware of it and I am
Yeah. Make sure that he's aware
All right.
You know, in case he's forgotten
Now who has, who has he placed in charge in there
that he is, you know, semi-incapacitated or not
functioning or whatever you want to call it.
'- STEVE
compunicate and
JOHN:
STEVE
be.
JOHN:
representative?
STEVE
JOHN:Well, he's always told me to
deal with the public and so forth
Okay.too.
of
it.
in
- or the, the FBI, whoever it might
Okay. So, so in effect you're his
Yes.
Okay. All right. So I've got to talk
to him later, all right?
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STEVE: See many times, you know, we'll
always in honesty do this. When you, when you people
request that, I will go to him. I'll, I'll ask him.
And when he tells me something, I mean I could sit
there and try to badger him even, and it wouldn't make
any difference.
JOHN: This is not just, you know, in his
interest but everyone's interest.
STEVE: No, I realize that. And I'll pass
the very statements you're making to him. And you
know, I will do that. I will do that. But many times,
I mean in fact every time if he says not at this time
or whatever I mean that's, that's the way it will be
from his the way he is.
:JOHN: This, this may be out of the line
with, you know, what your philosophy is I'm not sure.
Butgto me human life is a gift from God and, and I
3
would like to indiscernible! --
STEVE: No, I agree with that. I, I have the
greatest respect for all life.
JOHN: -- that I would hope that he feels the
same way.
STEVE: He is.
JOHN: And, and especially, you know,
children I have a special sensitivity for.
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STEVE: Right.
JOHN: And we have them involved here. So
you know, we'd like to get the video. And then that's.
that's as much for your protection or whatever you want
to call it as it is for to meet some of our
requirements. Because you know, that's going to show
people on the outside, you know, that some of this
criticism or negative publicity is incorrect.
STEVE: Well, I really don't really --
JOHN: And it's going to balance it.
STEVE: Yeah. I -- John, and personally I
really don't mind it. Because I expected it. You
know, I mean anytime you get involved in a small,
little group of a couple hundred people or whatever
else, it's termed a cult. >Especially if, of course,
it's got a leader, or it's doctrines are out of the
ord%nary or different from the socalled orthodox.
h I mean but at the same time you look in
history everything has been a cult. Lutheranism,it
started with one man. The Methodist -- well, I won't
get into that. But you, you know --
JOHN: You don't --
STEVE: -- Christianity itself was in the
beginning. I
JOHN: I think, you know, where some of this
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negative stuff comes from is that, you know, that David
right now appears that he's unwilling to talk to us.
And that, that at least can translate as disregard for,
for his group or flock or individuals in there. And,
and so that's probably where some of that negative
interpretation is coming from.
STEVE: Probably so.
JOHN: You know. If, you know, if you look
at it from --
STEVE: But it would come anyway as it was
coming way before by --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- by all the different sources.
JOHN: Yeah, I agree. I agree. But this,
this exacerbates it.
. STEVE: But see I wish -- I'd give anything
in éhis world, you know, if I had an ability or I mean
time-wise to sit down with some, an intelligent person
like yourself and say take a look at this. What do you
really think? You know, I mean you can't ever really
judge anything without really hearing the issues or the
matter through. I mean this is what the Bible says
here. ~
JOHN: Yeah, that's --
STEVE: It says it's a fool that answers
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before he hears a matter it says in the Book of
Proverbs.
JOHN; That's, that's what -- that's the
American judicial system right there. That's what the
court system is all about.
STEVE: Well, see I, I think, I mean I know
that's what the founding fathers had in mind was a
person is innocent until proven guilty. But I see in
this case positively clearly it's not that way nor is
it done for America at large.
JOHN: Well, you haven't been exposed to the
court system, you know?
STEVE: But I know too many stories, you
know, firsthand.
JOHN: Well, well, stories are stories. I'll
tell you right now. You know, I don't work very many
i
criminal cases anymore. But to prosecute somebody is a
Herculean effort. I mean the defendant has tremendous
flexibility and rights.
STEVE: That is your -- I do believe you to a
degree that there have been those criminals that have
gotten off where they shouldn't have. Like for
instance, Byron spoke to me that day when we were both
out together about Vic Fisell phonetic sp.!. Well,
I've really never known much about the man. I knew
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that he was around in the days that David and some of
our guys went to court. But I myself was not involved
or really knew a whole a lot about it.
But from what I understand it sounded to me
from what evidences I heard that the man was guilty as
Byron said. But I mean, I mean sitting in a -- I
could, I'd never make a judgment of course unless one
got to hear all the evidences.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: But like he said, you know, the man
got off even though he had worked so hard and really
thought that his case was strong and that there was an
overwhelming amount of evidence.
QOHN= Um-hum. So you say it worked for the
other guy in that case.
~ STEVE: Well, you know, I picture myself --
§ JOHN: You know, it's a --
STEVE: -- from your vantage point. I, I see
what you're saying. And I'm always -- I always hope
for the best of people's intentions like yourself, the
other negotiators.
But at the same time, I've been a person
that's been an avid reader, and I talked to thousands
of people from all walks of life. And I've met men
that are been, are retired admirals in the United
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States Navy. I've met others that in very high
positions that have shown me documentation and
evidences of things that do exist right now.
And I mean -- and, and I realize this
unsettles me when I see an agency like the ATP with the
kind of power -- and you know, I know you guys don't
want to talk about it. But that's one of my concerns,
one of my great concerns about how this all came about.
And I know now that if they did what they did to Kathy
Schroeder about conspiracy to commit murder against a
federal agent, whatever, can you imagine what they're
going to do to me? Just because I've been on the phone
trying to be a go-between. And, and you know,
indiscernible! --
:JOHN: Well, from, from what I understand and
like I say I'm, I'm relatively new here. You know, I
gotfa briefing before I came in here. But you know,
youave been one of the probably most constructive
people in this thing. I understand that you --
STEVE: Oh, but wait - I
JOHN: -- that you diffused a very volatile
situation where you had a potential additional loss of
life. And, and you know, you've been a stabilizing
influence here.
STEVE: I will be telling you one of these
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days, in fact, I've wanted, I'd like to tell you even
now just how many people lost their life. And I'm
talking about total innocent, no guns, no any --
JOHN: Well, tell me about that.
STEVE: Well, I will. But right now, you
know, it's, there's some that are relatives and so
forth. And they just -- they've got their own reasons.
So I've told them I'd respect that and --
JOHN: Um-hum. Well, just give me a number.
That's impersonal.
STEVE: Well, I will. I will be. You
know --
JOHN: I'm not looking to embarrass or expose
anyone. 1
STEVE: -- let me first -- you know, I won't
do that until, you know, everybody is in agreement and
so;£orth. I don't want to go against some's wishes and
so forth. Because I myself did not lose anybody when I
talk about relatives. You know, there are others here
that have. They've got their own personal reasons.
But anyway, you know, when I hear this man
Troy say what he has. And it was not us attacking
anybody. It was not us attacking them. And people
like Perry Jones, and I'll tell you others that, that
lost their lives. Totally innocent as you will find
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out. Didn't have any guns or rifles. We weren't ready
to ambush them. I'll -- we'll end up telling you the
few little details. And it's the truth. And if it
goes for or against us, whatever, it's still the truth.
JOHN: Well, then let's, let's do something
constructive and resolve it, and let's get that, let's
get that out, you know. '
STEVE: Well, see that --
JOHN: Show the world that you can resolve
this thing peacefully. That's going to be --
STEVE: The problem is, the problem is, is
when you see a powerful agency like that on the outside
doing there what they will. And no one's been arrested
or detained from those men. I mean what is going on?
Because we -- if, if those people that have already
come out have given their witness and testimony to some
small degree, and this other man comes along and
totally states contrary statements --
JOHN: Well, you're getting a one-sided
expose on this situation. That's why you don't --
STEVE: Yeah. But I saw there's been a lot
of videos taken of all this. I mean you can, you'll
be --
JOHN: Well, the videos will show it
objectively then, won't they?
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STEVE: John, you know what? You will get to
see David's room, how it was riddled with bullets from
the chopper. I mean you will see the diagonal. You'll
get to see there's a water tank on the outside of one
part of the building which of course the Bradleys can
see the three of them. You'll see bullet holes from a
diagonal coming from top going down.
JOHN: Well, let's start, let's start that
process. Let's expose that.
STEVE: I mean and here you got this ATF guy
and these spokespeople saying the totally opposite. I
mean they know they're lying. I mean these are men
that are in the high capacity positions of the, of the
United States Government. I mean that, that terrifies
me to think that men like this --
JOHN: Well, the --
_§ STEVE: -- Troy are in a position like that
with all the power he has to say what he wants to the
press, to make up this whole thing about drugs even.
Why don't he make up a whole lot -- why don't he keep
right on going?
JOHN: Yeah Q
STEVE: Keep on going. Why don't he full his
cup of iniquity up. Because one day whether he
believes in God or not, I believe the man is going to
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have pretty shaky knees when he stands before his
creator and every thought is bared and every motive is
shown.
JOHN: Well, you don't -- you can't expose
this type of situation from the inside there.
STEVE: I really don't think we're going to
be able to do that. I know, John, that you don't -- I
don't know what your understanding is about spiritual
things if you believe there's a God or if you're into
evolution or whatever you're into. But I believe by
the Bible it's shorter than you could ever dream the
time that's left in this world. I mean man has been
thinking that for centuries and centuries --
.JOHN: Well, I think you should use it
constructively then.
h STEVE: I am doing that. If, if you gave me
I
the}time to open up the Book of Nahum to you or
Zephaniah or Habakkuk, I think you'd be quite
surprised.
JOHN: You know, Steve, you know --
STEVE: I'm concerned about you as - I would
like to see a man like you live forever with your
family. Do you know that if you and your wife put God
first according to Isaiah 49, your children are
guaranteed eternal life? You read it sometime.
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JOHN: You know, speaking of children,
that's, that's an issue that I, that I have trouble not
being emotional about. And you know, they're one of
the dynamics of this situation that, you know, makes me
want to resolve this thing as quickly as possible and
not put those kids in any jeopardy. And you know, by
you coming out and, and addressing this thing, not only
are people going to respect that, but I think that's a
normal thing for any, any man to do is to, is to want
to --
STEVE: Well, you and I know I, I really --
JOHN: - to want to help the weak side. The
weaker --
STEVE: There's -- no. I mean there might be
a few patriot type people, patriotic people that might
have some respect for something like that. But overall
I
of sourse, this has been termed and viewed as such a
bizarre cult with all the slanderous rumors and --
JOHN: Yeah, but that's, that, you know, that
might be. But you do something like that --
STEVE: And --
JOHN: -- that cuts across the, the lines,
you know.
STEVE: That it is true. John, and it's
true. David has -- he did back when marry a 14-year-
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old girl when he was in his early twenties. And it is
true that he does have multiple wives as he has stated
and given a video out. It's true.
JOHN: Well, I'm not -- you know, I don't
want to criticize that or support it or whatever, you
know. It's -- no man is so tall as when he stoops to
help a child. You know, why not do something
constructive. You know, by, by staying in there and us
staying out here that's --
STEVE: What if, what if he's doing something
constructive in that there is a big, huge, mean,
powerful God that's ready to rip apart mankind right
now. And as bizarre as it sounds that this group is so
small. But you got to remember Goliath of old and, and
a little, bitty, ready boy David with his sling stone.
" In Revelation 13, just hold it for just one
i
second. Let me just, let me give two statements. It
says in Revelation 13 it talks about a beast. All the
world, all the world including myself, everybody,
wondered after the beast and worshipped the dragon.
Then the question is who is able to make war against
the beast?
And that's where we come in with the answer
showing all the prophets. Who? A modern-day David. A
little ready nobody. Who is the beast? It's the
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system. It's all mankind is caught up in the system of
the flesh, the desires, wanting to rule man and all the
rest of it.
JOHN: Well, I --
STEVE: It's the entire system of what we
have --
JOHN: Maybe I'm, I'm oversimplifying it.
But I'm just talking about one human being helping
another. You know. Maybe, maybe I'm too pragmatic and
not philosophical enough. 4
STEVE: Well, it's not that. I mean from
your, from your position I, I can - I see totally and
clearly why and how you're seeing it and why. But at
the same time, again we're a people that believe in the
Bible and, and that it's literal --
" JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
I
.} STEVE: -- and it's going to come to pass.
So how can you get away from it? '
JOHN: You know, when you come out we can
arrange a forum for David to address the press. And I
understand that he'd like a panel of scholars. That
can be arranged.
STEVE: Are you serious? Even --
JOHN: Yes.
STEVE: - though the ATF has shown -- I, you
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and I know what the ATF is going to do with him.
They're going to say he's a murderer --
JOHN: I am serious.
STEVE: - he's this, that. You and I know
he's going to get fried or lethal injection, whatever
it is. You know, that --
JOHN: I don't know that.
STEVE: -- there's no question about it. I
do.
JOHN = Why?
STEVE: I do. Because I know what the
prophecies show.
JOHN: Well, you mean it's inevitable? You
know --
STEVE: As far as I see it is.
JOHN: Well, then if it's inevitable --
Ag STEVE: The world doesn't want to hear some
kind of a guy that they've already termed to be a nut
and so forth. And I can't imagine that even though
you, you would like to make a promise like that that
it, that it would ever come about. I can't imagine in,
in my wildest imaginations that you people were to give
or allow him to sit down with a panel of scholars.
Number one, they wouldn't take the challenge in the
first place. They wouldn't want to be exposed with
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their awesome, large flocks that support their
lifestyle and --
JOHN: Well, you know, it's --
STEVE: -- and their arrogancy sic! and
their doctor degrees and all the rest.
JOHN: Steve, if, if all this is inevitable,
how would coming out alter anything? If, if what is --
if the dye is cast, if what will be will be --
STEVE: No, he's gave his word. He's got
to -- he said he would come out. He's got to come out.
He said he will come out. I, I myself and coming out.
It's just that right now like himself, he's waiting for
God to say something or show him something. And that's
coming pretty quickly. I, I know it is.
For myself I have considered many times
coming~out as much as a week, week and a half ago very
seriously. But I've also been watching to see what
happens to individuals as they go out to see what the
reaction is --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- with the
the magistrates, with federal
I've not liked what I've seen
with the Attorney General andpress, with the FBI, with
judges, whatever. And
with this federal system
so forth. And, and the
ATP, the power they have, have persuasion in the
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process.
JOHN: You, you know, you, you can't --
STEVE: I mean when I hear, when I hear this
David Troy I'm, I'm really bothered by it. I mean --
JOHN: Well, I understand that. But you
can't, you can't affect or influence that from there,
you know. You're going to, you know, there's not going
to be objectivity in this relationship if you, if you
stay in there. ~
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: You know, it's like, it's like your
head in the sand. People say --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- well gee, it must be true, because
no one has countered it, has the courage --
" STEVE: John, did you, did you get to hear
tha§ press conference today, the half hour?
JOHN: Yes, I did.
STEVE: Did you hear, was that -- I believe
it was Bob Ricks, he made a statement how David looks
for lonely, unloved, innocent, the --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: -- innocent who he preys on and so
forth.
JOHN: Um-hum.
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STEVE: Do you know that these people are
rich? Check out Paul Fatta's background and, and the
amount of money he was bringing in and what he owned
and so forth. Check out the rest of these people.
I'll give their, all their names. You can check out
their degrees, their skills, their background, the
education, all of it. These are people that, that hit
David, all right, what about, what about, what about
this, what about that?
Every day it's a battle to stay in a place
like this. Because who in their right mind would even
want to be in a, in a place like this dump with fire
ants and, and - I'm used to beautiful places like
Vermont and Wisconsin and Hawaii where you have rolling
hills and trees. So are these people.
" JOHN: Well, you know --
,§ STEVE: You don't think, you don't think
every day it's a battle to, to ask yourself the
question what am I doing here? It comes down to their
conviction, not with David but the book called the
Bible. ~
Or every day - some people have left. Some
people came to us with no money. We gave them money so
they could go out and start a new life and leave us.
Just recently I was telling a couple of the
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negotiators -- I won't say who it is because I don't
want them to be bothered right now. But we've had
people come here recently that we sent out and said go
to your -- now that you've heard us, go to your
scholars. Take time off and meditate on your own.
Take time to think about these things. If you're
interested, you can come back. Honestly, John.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah --
STEVE: I'm telling you the truth.
JOHN: I understand. Steve, what you're
saying, what you're saying is --
STEVE: But, but Bob Ricks, you know, he's,
he's using certain psychologies. He's --
~ :JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- trying to taunt and provoke and,
and I mean I see what's going on.
;; JOHN: What you're saying is we're not a
bunch of kooks, that, that we're intelligent people,
and we've had constructive lives. And you know, but
people can't see that if you stay in there.
STEVE: Well, really see I'm not bothered by
that. I think there's a judge, and in God's time he'll
make manifest exactly what needs to be known to all the
world. Like in the days of Noah. One day finally a
black cloud starts forming and so forth. And those
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that didn't get into the arc had to learn how to swim.
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: In the final days, Christ of 2,000
years ago says as it was then
days. Well back then you had
knew when to get into the arc
why they had to. The rest ofit will be in the final
a group of people that
of safety, where it was,
the world were, were
religious. They believed in God. God knew their
hearts.
JOHN: Well, you obviously care, you know,
about what people think, you know.
STEVE: They're doing what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
fence.SPEAKER: Breaking the
JOHN: You want it to be a --
~ STEVE: I guess -- excuse me. They told me
right now they're taking downthe fence in front of
the, the property right here now. Unidentified female
voice in background not discernible.!
JOHN: Okay, that must have been --
STEVE: And of course, that's where all the
evidences were. So there goes whatever evidences that
would have proved anything. Unidentified female voice
in background not discernible.! The shell cartridges
of course and all the rest.
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JOHN: Well, if you -- I'll tell you what,
you know. That's, that's being done by the tactical
side, you know. We said --
STEVE: See if they don't care about it, I
don't either. You know --
JOHN: You obviously do. You know, if you
say this is destroying, you know, evidence that can
help your, your situation --
STEVE: Well, you know, you, you know, you
know --
JOHN: -- you know how you can stop that?
You just come out.
STEVE: Yeah. No, no. Lock up a few of
those -- you know, you lock them up, and then I'll come
up, and you can do with me what you want.
" JOHN: I, I don't understand.
I
.3 STEVE: I'm saying that you had men that
came -- I don't mean you but the Government brought --
the ATF came in here with the intent of murder. I'm --
that's a strong statement, but it is a truthful
statement. E
I was right down at the end of the hall when
David went to that door. And he opened up the door,
stuck his head out and the, and the top part of the
torso of his body, and all of a sudden he slammed the
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door after making his statement, and they started
firing. You'll see the door.
Perry Jones, 64 years old, got nailed in the
leg and then in the stomach by the bullet, the barrage.
Brad Branch, who you have incarcerated right now, ask
his, his testimony, his views of what -- he was right
there himself. There was another individual who was in
here that was there.
LTCDIIDI:
STEVE
got it --
§TC!}{lJ:
STEVE
never had a gun,
QICDIIIJ:
" STEVESteve --
The only one that, the only one that
-- from what you're saying --
-- was Perry Jones, 64 years old,
never hurt anybody.
Um-hum.
But so I mean and here you got old
Davd Troy saying what he did. I would -- I tell you
what --
LTCDITIJ: You know, I'll tell you from what you
say with all these dynamics going on if -- when this
thing goes to trial, it will be the trial of the
century.
STEVE: I really doubt it. V
£T !IIIi:
the highest --It will, it will probably be one of
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STEVE: It will be, it will probably be swept
under the carpet -- -
JOHN: -- opportunities --
STEVE: -- just like the Weaver deal.
JOHN: The Weaver deal?
STEVE: The Weaver trial, the one that's
coming up. The one, you know, the guy in Idaho? The
press -- I never heard, read anything in the entire
press about the guy. They kept that thing so quiet
even though there was hundreds --
JOHN: Well, there --
STEVE: -- of agents there. How come it was
that the press they --
JOHN: If it goes to trial the, the agency is
muzzled in effect. You know. It's --
' STEVE: Yeah, but how come -- you tell me,
John, why do you think, John, that the press, the big
ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, all of them. Where was all their
information on what was going on at that time with the
guy? Why was it so silenced?
gJOHN: I don't know.
STEVE: But I mean doesn't that bother you
indiscernible! --
JOHN: I wish, I wish I were better informed
on that. But I just, I don't know, you know.
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STEVE: John, where are you from?
JOHN: I'm from Tennessee.
STEVE: Are you really?
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: Oh. Nice place.
JOHN: Yeah, it is pretty. Yeah.
STEVE: So how on earth did you ever get
involved in the FBI?
JOHN: It's a long, it's a long story. You
know --
STEVE: Were you in the military?
JOHN: Yeah, I was.
STEVE: You were, huh?
.JOHN: Yeah. Um-hum. Were you in the
military?
" STEVE: No. I never -- I lucked out.
I
4} JOHN: Laughing.!
I STEVE: I never would personally -- I mean I
would have gone of course.
JOHN: Yeah .
STEVE: But I was, I was-always hoping with
my fingers crossed that it wouldn't happen.
JOHN: Well, it depends on how you look at
it, you know. It may --
STEVE: Well, if there had been an outright
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31
war like World War I or II or where there was a
declared war and there was clear objectives, I
probably, you know, like the guys in my generation they
wouldn't have minded so much. But boy --
JOHN: Well, I, I looked at it as kind of a
right of passage. Maybe that's a little trite.
STEVE: Really?
JOHN: Maybe it's a little immature.
STEVE: Well, no, I understand what you're
saying.
JOHN: Uh-huh .
STEVE: John, to tell you the truth you seem
to be okay. I mean I don't -- all these guys. I'd
give anything if under other circumstances I would have
had --
' JOHN: Well, I, you know --
4 STEVE: -- a chance to meet, talk with people
like yourself.
JOHN: I, I appreciate that comment. But you
know, I'm okay because I'm praying that we can work
this out.
STEVE: Well, I'm hoping to.
JOHN: I'm, I'm hopeful.
STEVE: But I'm waiting for suggestions, you
know, how I can or yourselves can approach these other
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people. Myself, I don't have a real great willingness
myself even to come out right now.
I -- that thing with Livingston was one of
the biggest things that bothered me that I'm not
certain about even right now. I'm really not. And I'm
glad you allowed me to at least say that because it's
true. You know, I'm -- that affected me a lot.
Because when he went out, he looked at me, he made some
statements to me. And then all of a sudden I never
hear from him again.
I mean man, his own wife has come up to me
numerous times and his mother. You know, it's like
they're saying to me what part did you have to play in
that? And I'm saying well, wait a minute here now.
All I did was talk to Byron about, and we conversed
about it and got an okay. And I understood it clearly
in one way and it didn't happen. So what do you want
from me? What am I to do?
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: So see, since that time all these
people that like when I talked to the last few agents
lately they all bring that issue up to me, even though
the different agents don't want to talk about it. But
it's a big issue to them. It really is. So I'm having
a hard time talking with anybody anymore.
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" 33
JOHN: How about -- has Jesse, the guy that
just went in there, has he contributed anything
relative to resolution? How old is he?
STEVE: I -- like I said he, he seems to be
in looking at him and the way he's talking I would
guess that he's late thirties.
JOHN: Okay. Late thirties.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: So he's, he's mature. He's not a --
STEVE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. He definitely is.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Where the other young man is like I
think he, I think he said he was 24 if I remember
right.
JOHN: What, what is he, a white male,
Hispanic or --
Us STEVE: He said -- yeah, he's white. He's a
mixture. I think he said he was Spanish, French, black
and something else. I know he was four things. I
don't remember what the fourth thing was.
JOHN: But he speaks English --
STEVE: Indian. That's what it was. Indian.
JOHN: India.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: But his English is fluent?
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' 34
STEVE: Yes, it is. It's fluent but he, he
has a strong -- he almost sounds like he's black. He
doesn't look black. He looks like he's Hispanic.
JOHN: Is he a citizen?
>STEVE: Pardon?
JOHN: American citizen?
STEVE: Yes, he is. Yeah, he is. Yeah, he,
he belonged to some Assembly of God church in Northern
Houston. I can't remember the name of it right off.
He mentioned some pastor friend of his. He says
there's others that were aware that he was coming here
to find out about what this was all about. He came
with no intent of anything other than to him he needed
to know for himself. And that's basically what he has
told us. He, he said he wanted to know the Bible.
He's asked us many questions in regards to the Bible.
Q JOHN: What, what does he do, do you know,
for a living?
STEVE: He said that he - he didn't say.
But something to do with -- no, he did say. I'm trying
to remember what it was. Let's see, what did he say he
did? Man, I can't even - Pablo.
PABLO: Yeah? _
STEVE: What, what's Louis, what kind of job
has he had, or what did he do did he say?
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Unidentified male voices in background not35
discernible.! He's in the what? A nurse's assistant
and something else. Unidentified male voice in
background not discernible.! Some kind of a telephone
communicator. Sales and telephones. I don't know.
Something of that nature. And he just up and took off
that day I guess.
JOHN: Um-hum. How would you feel about
sending him out? I'm trying to simplify things
I'm -- you know, I know that you have control in there
and that, you know --
STEVE: Well, not really --
JOHN: You know these people. But in other
words, I don't want --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- to introduce some kind of dynamic
that's going to upset continuity in there.
STEVE: No, no. Okay, I'll tell you
John. Here's how we are. I would tell you as
that if you wanted to come here, you would be
guaranteed by my life, by whatever. You today
come walking right in these doors.
We wouldn't want you to go wandering
the building of course. But we'd actually sit
with you, wouldn't even touch you
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a person
could
around
down
other than if you
wanted to shake 0
actually come in
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
do that.
STEVE:
are outside the,
know, they've exp
a number of times
If I, if I come o
armed. Ill, I'l
right up to the B
would like me to.
Ti 1, 1 11
Byron. But he --
mean when it come
conversation. Bu
respond to some o
JOHN:
STEVE :
know, we -- he's
here to hear some
FR' 36
ur hands or whatever. But you could
here and talk to people face to face.
You know I would love to do that.
Pardon?
I would love to do that.
I'm telling the honest --
And, and maybe down the road we will
You know, see like even the guys that
your agents that are out there, you
osed themselves, I was telling Henry,
. We're not out to take their lives.
ut there, notice that I - I'm not
l come right on out there and walk
radley. I'll, I'll lean on it if you
That doesn't bother me.
ke communicating with people like
of course, he's very overpowering I
s to taking control of the
t it's, you know, I like to be able
f things he raises and vice versa.
Yeah.
But about sending this guy out, you
got free will of choice. He's come
thing. So our whole purpose before
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this incident happened February 28th was doing exactly
that. So for us to do that, his blood would be on my
hands. If, if he came to learn a truth that I believe
in and am convicted about, and I turn the man away
without him getting to hear all things and have his
questions answered. Do you understand?
JOHN:' Yeah, I do.
STEVE: See even if you wanted to come here
or any of the agents or anybody, seriously, I
wouldn't -- we would not turn you away. Just like
Gonzales. We -- see, I never, we never -- David always
suspected what agency he was from. I always knew for a
fact he was an agent also. I mean just his demeanor.
The way he responded in regards to the Bible studies.
I mean a person, you know, if you've been around you
can tell.
i
-if} JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: Especially you know, and I won't run
the whole thing through and buy again. You've probably
heard it on tapes and all that already.
JOHN: Not really. Laughing.!
STEVE: But -- well anyway. But anyway, you
know, when he came here even at, what was strange to us
was that Sunday morning how he appeared even though he
said he was not going to be here until Monday. And
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' 38
then he did some things, you know, that, that alarmed
us like -- no one was ever tipped off.
But when he had his alarm go off on his
vehicle four times in a certain manner, then somebody
happened to look out the window because of it and saw
one of the vehicles that were across the, down by the
water tanks. And he said he was going to go have
breakfast. He did not do that. He went and took off
real quick.
See what do you think how people, some of the
people, not everybody. It was no ambush. Some people
went and got a hold of some guns right then and there.
Very few did.
.JOHN: Yeah. Well, you know, putting that
issue behind, because we've got to, to get something
constructive done.
I
F; STEVE: Right .
JOHN: There's no doubt --
STEVE: I know. I know.
JOHN: -- who I am and who those people are
out there. You know. And, and you said something that
gives me some insight into a, I think a very .
constructive attitude. You said you wouldn't mind
going out and leaning against a Bradley. You know, I
think that that --
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STEVE: Well, that doesn't bother me.
JOHN: -- would be fantastic. Laughing.!
If, if you would bring the whole group out and let them
lean against the Bradley. You know, they're not going
to do anything in a situation like that. You know
that. And, and --
STEVE: I believe that.
JOHN: And they don't want to do anything.
You know, the situation has, has caused people to do
things like, you know, the, the music at night and all
this sort of stuff that's going on.
STEVE: That -- in honesty that doesn't
really --
JOHN: That's, that's pressure that, that
makes people --
" STEVE: -- that doesn't really bother
anybody. It might bother the -- I'll tell you what.
You know, Bob Ricks mentioned about our, David's lack
of concern about children, hiding behind them and all
that. They're properly -- these children are so
healthy when it comes to their mental faculties and so
forth. The women, the mothers --
JOHN: Yeah --
STEVE: -- so take the time to educate them.
They're disciplined. Not with meanness contrary to our
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' 40
adversaries what they've stated.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah. You know, Steve, I --
STEVE: But, but you know, the only thing
that does bother them, John, is of course that the
weird sounds and all that. They don't understand that.
JOHN: I know what you're saying. And, and
you know, that is probably going to continue until --
STEVE: That's okay. "
JOHN: -- something, you know --
STEVE: We, we don't mind.
JOHN: - constructive takes place.
STEVE: Well --
JOHN: And you know, you have the, the
authority, everyone in there has as you said free
choice. But they've got the choice to, to resolve this
thing peacefully. And, and that puts an end to all
I
that. And it also puts an end to the, to what you
characterize as, as the wrongful picture that's being
painted of, of the individuals in there and, and
David's attitude toward children and everything else.
A very constructive thing. You know, you know, people
are getting one side of it right now.
STEVE: Yeah, they are --
JOHN: Yeah, and, and --
STEVE: -- thanks to Bob Ricks and David
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92
-4].
Troy.
JOHN: I agree with you on that. And YOU
know, it's -- that's, that's the situation in effect --
STEVE: Indiscernible! the effect is very
worthy to if I recall --
JOHN: -- you know, I don't say you've,
you've created it. But you have, you have --
STEVE: Sometimes Bob Ricks says some things
I really like. I'm thinking man the guy's hitting it
right on the head. But I mean I don't mind him
anywhere near. I mean he's doing what he was doing.
He's using his psychologies to try to get something
going. So I, I appreciate that.
,So I really -- but to have the outright kind
of lies as Troy. I mean that's what has actually
caused me to stumble from making moves to walking out.
I
,3 JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: And yesterday was a pretty --
JOHN: You know that --
STEVE: Yesterday, John, was a big deal to me
with Henry when that incident happened with our --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- the person that went out there.
And then all these threats came from the commanders.
Wow. Such an insult. First they give, be given the
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go-ahead to do that. And then in the process the
Bradley comes up like it's going to run the poor soul
over. And I mean and then all of a sudden the attitude
on the phone instead of discussing it with me in a
humane manner, the threats. I mean --
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE: I'll.tell you what. Although I was
ready and willing to talk with Henry right away again.
Then all of a sudden I find that the lines had been run
over or disconnected or whatever they did with them.
JOHN: Yeah. You, you know what we call
that?
STEVE: What?
JOHN: Murphy's Law. You're familiar with
that.
STEVE: I'm sure.
I
-é JOHN: You're familiar with that term.
h STEVE: But these guys apparently they must
have run over the lines with the Bradleys, huh?
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah. Do you use that term,
Murphy's Law?
STEVE: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I am familiar.
JOHN: Okay. Laughing.!
STEVE: Yeah. I'm familiar.
JOHN: Yeah. Well, that's part of the real
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4-3
1 world, you know?
2 STEVE: Well, that's true.
3 JOHN: Yeah.
4 STEVE: Well, John, you sound like a real
5 straight person. And I mean at least I can talk with
6 you even though it might be a lot of babbling verbiage
7 to you. But I mean those -- that's the way I am.
8 You're, you're getting to hear me. And that's why I've
9 had a hard time myself coming out.
10 Because I, I believe things are winding down
11 like I told you. And there's certain things -- I'm
12 wanting to come out. And I think we're getting to the
13 place now. I know you guys are anxious. Yesterday
14 would have been better. But I know we're getting to
15 the place where that's going to happen. I know that.
A.
16 And --
17 3 JOHN: Well, we'd all like that to happen.
18 STEVE: There's a few things I'd like to say
19 to you, but I'm, I'm hesitating yet. But I'm going to
20 be saying a lot more here very shortly. And I think it
21 will give you more of an understanding and an idea as
22 to why and what and a lot of things. But when it comes
.23 to these people I mean --
24 JOHN: Yeah.
25 STEVE: you'll always find it to be the
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truth. They are individuals. They can make up their
own -- seriously, they'll make up their own minds.
JOHN: Some of my favorite words are truth,
and another one is peace.
STEVE: I know. Isn't that true? You're
right about that. You know --
JOHN: I've had my --
STEVE: - a person like even --
JOHN: -- I've had my times of, you know,
with no peace, you know.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: And, and now I'm a big advocate of
peace. Because I've seen the other side. And, and
that's not -- it's not constructive. It's not a way to
go. You know, and that's why I want to resolve this
thing peacefully. We all do. You know, everybody
that's been talking to you is of the same mind set.
And, and sometimes, you know, the situation causes us
maybe to have to be a little, a little hard. You know,
and I hope you appreciate that.
STEVE; Well, yeah. You know, when it comes
to like the destruction of the property and all that I,
I don't even care. Like it was my motorcycle that they
pulled off that trailer back by the gymnasium and, and
planted it in the soil. I had some pretty good times
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45
on that thing but -- i
JOHN: What was it?
STEVE: Huh?
JOHN: What was it?
STEVE: It was a Magna. An '84 Magna that
had when I got it 3,000 miles on it. I didn't even --
I used it for a few thousand miles --
I JOHN: That's a brand name, Magna?
STEVE: It's a Honda Magna. I'm sorry.
JOHN: Oh, okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Yeah. Is that a big one?
STEVE: It's a seven -- it was actually about
a 700 cc.
JOHN: Um-hum. Yeah.
STEVE: But anyway that -- it doesn't matter
to ée. Because I'm looking for bigger and greater --
' JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- I'm, I'm looking to travel
throughout the expanses of space. I see it as a
reality.
JOHN: Well, people matter to me.
V STEVE: Oh, to me too. That's why I'm so
concerned for you, John. If you ever got to hear David
open up physics. I'm a person that have, have had a
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.' 92
O.
. 46
lot of classes and studies with professors in the area
of physics and sciences like astronomy. You ought to
hear this uneducated person, John, seriously.
JOHN:
will get on the
listen to
to do that
you going
6 o'clock
1.
We've got
effort to
I shouldnthat.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
to be
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
here 2
try to
t even
JOHN:
say 6 o'clock is
whenever the sunSTEVE:I'll tell you what. You know, if he
phone with me, I would be willing to
ll be doing everything I can Okay. I
Would you do that and --
I really will be. How, how long are
around for today?
I'll be around until at least 5:30,
Okay.
Okay?
I'll do what -- well, let's see.
0 after 2. I'll definitely make every
get him to the phone. Oh, I'm sorry.
say that because of the Sabbath.
Um-hum. Yeah, but after what, what --
when --
Yeah. Well, well, the sun --
goes down. I -- what is it, 6:30
maybe? Six, 6:30, somewhere in there. I don't even
know. Seven maybe.
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47
JOHN: Probably.
STEVE: What - are you going to be back
around tomorrow?
JOHN: I will be here tomorrow.
STEVE: Super.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Super. I think that we may have a
good chance to start getting things going again maybe
from another perspective. I really, you know, I do
appreciate your taking the time.
JOHN: Well, it's been, it's been pleasant.
But we want to get something constructive going here.
STEVE: I know you do. I know you do. I
myself too. But you know the -- one thing for sure.
You know, the Sabbath is a big deal. And I, I don't
4.
know what to say. We don't want to show disrespect to
our?God. And, and it's something we feel that --
JOHN: Oh, I respect that.
STEVE: -- that's very important.
JOHN: You know. You know. But so are
people. I mean people -- it's all part and parcel.
It's all together.
STEVE: But God made people. And he can --
JOHN: I know that. I know that and we
and --
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STEVE: -- and he can re-make them again see
That's the thing.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Remember all those statements of
Christ, remember putting father, mother first. You 'I¬
not worthy to be his disciple. And let the dead bury
the dead. God
there's others
it isn't to us
JOHN:means what he says. And you know,
that you, that's only a theory to. But
It's a reality. That's how we live.
All right. Well, I, I'm not going to
bother you anymore, Steve. But if you --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- got something constructive, would
you come right back to me?
STEVE: Yes, I will.
JOHN: I mean -- I'm talking about --
I
J STEVE: Yes, I will.
JOHN: -- anything that will help resolve
this thing peacefully. People coming out. Anything
that, you know, we can do --
STEVE: Right. -
JOHN: -- in that regard.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: All right.
STEVE: I'm going to continue to talk to
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- 49
these two new people that came in also.
JOHN: Okay." And you know, if they want to
come out just, just give me a call and --
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: -- we'll arrange for something. All
right?
STEVE: You know, maybe you know, like David
did say to me:I think it was yesterday or today maybe
it's time that we start thinking about a negotiator
that is neutral from the FBI or us or anybody. And you
know, we've talked about that from the beginning since
this all came about back February 28th.
A JOHN: Well, we'll discuss that, all right?
isrsvs: All right.
JOHN: That's why we got to get to David.
STEVE: All right.
g JOHN: All right.
STEVE: We'll do that.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Okay, talk to you later, John.
JOHN: All right. Bye bye, Steve.
STEVE: Okay. Bye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Good job --
End of tape 171.!
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TBPE /7»
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #172
3/27/93
2:25 P.M. 7:35 P.M.
.92
Tape 172!2
[Telephone ringing.]
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
TONY: Hello. Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I could hardly hear
you because there is the strangest sound going on out
there.
not.I, I couldn't tell if the phone was ringing or
TONY: Oh, is that right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: It's Tony here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, Tony. How's it
going?
TONY: Oh, pretty good. How about you?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Do you hear that? Just a
minute;
something. I don't --
4It must be a civil defense raid or air raid or
' TONY: I, I can barely hear it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You're kidding?
TONY: Yeah. No, I can barely hear it.
Might, might be the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER
TONY: - phone
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
so what's happening now?
TONY: Oh, nothing. Just calling in, see how
92Well, you --
lines.
Well, that's good. Anyway
O O
S 3
you -- how you're doing there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Just have a giblg study
with these two new guys that are here. They are asking
a lot of questions, so we are going through a lot of
scriptures.
TONY: What, what's the, the name of the guy,
the second, second guy that came in?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Jesse Amen, he calls
himself. .
TONY: Jesse Amen?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Amen, Amen, A M E N.
TONY: How old is he?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said he was late 30s, I,
I gather. It seems like he must be like 38, 39,
somewhere in there.
TONY: Oh, is that right?
¢ STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
f TONY: Do you know what his date of birth is?
We're trying to find out who he is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He never gave it. He said
he was originally -- he's from the west coast. He says
he's done a lot of travelling around America. And --
but where his birthplace is, he never made that clear.
TONY: Is that right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: And he's been living on the west coast
O O
4
now?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. He said he gets --
actually, in the past year, apparently, he must have
travelled all around America on a bicycle. That's what
he was telling me. Along with ~- he most recently, it
sounds like, was somewhere in southern California.
TONY: Just recently, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Very recent.
TONY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think he left there, from
what I understand, about a month ago.
TONY: Oh, but he's been living here then?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said he's been on the
road all that time. He -- hitchhiking, it sounds like,1.
staying with people he knows. He mentioned something
abogt some river basin or something.i I didn't - the
Colorado River basin or something.
TONY: Yeah. Is he working anywhere?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It doesn't sound like that.
And apparently he heard about this, I don't know, in
the press or news or something, and decided he wanted
to come and hear more about what we had to say about
the giblg.
TONY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He
ideas. He came to share a lot
listened to him --
TONY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: --
him a lot of questions, and he
And that's when we said, well,5
had a lot of his own
of things, and we
and then started asking
couldn't answer them.
do you mind if we show
you? So, we started showing him. He said, well,
that's why I came.
TONY: Does he want to come out?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He probably will be, but he
says he wants to see a little more. So, we --
TONY: But I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- told him I'd show him --
TONY: Well, when do you think he'll be
coming out?
,{ STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't know. I didn't --
3
Y TONY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: --
was -- I just said, well,
TONY: You willreally ask him yet. I
what's your intentions?
find that out for us, though?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Oh, yeah, you know.
TONY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
talking to him.It's -- so we can keep on
TONY: Find out when he was born, if you
O Q
' 6
could ~-
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. All, all --
TONY: - so we --
srsvs SCHNEIDER: -- all right.
TONY: We, we just want to ma-- know who's
there and so forth so we don't have any problems.
Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right. Okay.
TONY: Yeah. Is David there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's, he's in his room
right now. And do you have anything - I could
probably call you back, go up and check to see if, you
know, you -- what you have for him?
TONY: Well, we'd like to talk to him.
=STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
TONY: Yes. If he's - if he can come to the
phone, we'd sure like to talk to him. How come he's --
3 srsvs SCHNEIDER: Yeah, because --
I TONY: -- not been coming to the phone?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know, that phone you
guys gave us? Well, what we're trying -- I think what
they did is I told them to go hook up one of the
previous cords, because it's nowhere near long enough
to even get to where he's at. It barely made it in the
door. But with the other cord, I think that it
shouldn't be a problem. It's one long line, of course.
" 7
TONY: Um-hum. You can't get the phone to
him now?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I do-- I think we probably
could. I'd --
TONY: Oh, okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -~ have to call you back
and probably plug in another extension or something.
TONY: Um-hum. Yeah, we would, we would like
to talk to him. How - well, how come he hasn't been
talking to anybody?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, mostly -~
TONY: It's been awhile since we've talked to
him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see what happened,
the last time, I - when was it? I think -~ was it two
nights ago that we --
1.
I TONY: Yeah. Yeah, something like that.
4? STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think it was --
TONY: It was late in the night.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- two nights ago. Yeah.
And then --
TONY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- all of a sudden he
started getting -- every time he gets up -- I don't
know how -- what ~- you know, what's wrong with him
internally, but every time he gets up it seems like he
3 O
8
starts getting sick right afterwards again.
TONY: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He starts thinking he's
going to feel -- he always says when a guy - that kind
of -- I think he started pushing it way too early right
in the beginning where --
TONY: Well, well, I think you and I both
know that he's got to get that looked at. I, I
don't -- 1
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's true.
TONY: - think there's any question about
that. I mean --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm sure he does.
TONY: The longer he go-- gets -- especial--
especially if there's any internal, internal problems
there :-
I1 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
TONY: -- you know, it's -- then infection --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Or it could --
TONY: - sets in and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - be, because, you know,
every time he gets up, he, he's, he's up for a little
bit, and then all of a sudden he --
ATONY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - starts feeling bad, and
then all of a sudden he gets headaches --
k
0
QO O
TONY: Exactly.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He, he's --
TONY: Because --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: been complaining
about -- -
TONY: Because --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I don't know, nausea or
something like it. i
TONY: Yeah, because the immune system can
only go so far.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: You know, once infection starts
setting in, then, of course, it starts taking --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
TONY: -- it's toll, and that's exactly what
you start feeling.
5 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what I
wondered about. You know, I know -- I knew he's never
had headaches before. He's never ever complained --
TONY: Yeah.
'STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- about them. So, it's,
it's definitely unusual for him.
TONY: Yeah. Well, if we get in -- if you
can tell him, I mean, like all of us want, and we've
all said this time and time again. We want to get
those people looked at taken care of and that --
STEVE
TONY:I.
_ 10
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
-- includes him. And, obviously, if
that can be taken care of, we'd like to get that, you
know --
STEVE
TONY:
and done with.
STEVE
TONY:
video?
STEVE
sabbath hour is
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
1 STEVE
--¢§
know
went
just
want
down,
TONY:SCHNEIDER: Right.
-- get him out here and get this over
SCHNEIDER: Right.
So. Hey, did it -- did they do the
SCHNEIDER: We just -- in fact, the
just finished. We just got through --
You're right.
SCHNEIDER: -- with a study. So.
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: And what I need to do is go
was going to go talk to him about that. He didn't
I -- earlier in the day when that was sent in, I
and mentioned something to him about it, and he
motioned to me that it was the sabbath, he didn't
to talk about it. So, now that the sun has gone
I'll go ask him about -- because he --
Did the video go on?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah. The majority of the
children are his.
TONY: Yeah.
STEVEll
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but not all of them.
But, you know, he's still -- all these kids he always
took responsibility for, of course, and wanted to make
sure they all had a good upbringing and education. A
lot of the mothers spent a lot of time instructing the
children, teaching them to read and, and so forth. And
they're very consi-- I mean, one of the biggest things
here is consistency.
TONY: Well, we'd like -- I'll tell you what
I'd like to do rather than video, I'd rather some of
the children come out.
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
being that they
TONY:
3; srsvs
1}
TONY:
STEVE
I mean, just --
TONY:
there for them.
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
or whatever youSCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know --
See them somewhere ourself.
SCHNEIDER: For me, I mean, you know,
are his and some --
Sure.
SCHNEIDER: -- of these others --
Exactly. Absolutely right.
SCHNEIDER: -- I mean, he -- you know,
I don't think it can be comfortable in
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
Him --
SCHNEIDER: Well, no, the music there,
call this right now -- well, just --
C O
12
here, listen to this.
TONY: Oh, yeah. I can hear that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Can you hear that?
TONY: Yeah. Oh, yeah, I can hear that.
Yeah. Yeah. I hear what you're saying.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, well, you know, the
children here, they're playing all sorts of sounds and
everything. And, I mean, it's --
TONY: Well, it's got to be uncomfortable for
them. I'm -- I mean, not only them, but everybody in
there. .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, the majority of us,
it doesn't really --
TONY: Sure.
{STEVE SCHNEIDER: matter.
TONY: Well, I -- we understand that. But,
1.
at,least for the children's sake -- '
E STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: -- you know. We'd sure like to get
them -- the children to come out.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know.
TONY: And, you know, then, at least we can
deal this on, you know, one-on-one with ourselves, but
at least get the children out of there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
TONY: But you think you'll be able to get
13
them people out tomorrow for us, tomorrow morning?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I don't want to lie
to you, so - I mean, I can talk to --
TONY: NO --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- to people again or allow
you to talk to them or whatever.
TONY: Okay. Well, how about tonight? Do
you think you can talk to them tonight?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I've been talking to
even these two new guys --
TONY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - along with -- Greg
Sommers is standing right here.
TONY: Umhum.
STEVE TO GREG: Greg, do you want to leave
tomorrow or tonight?
3 GREG TO STEVE: Sure.
3
J TONY TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Indiscernible!
tonight.
STEVE TO GREG: Indiscernible!.
GREG TO STEVE: That means I've got -- tell
-- indiscernible!.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You didn't hear him, did
you?
TONY: No, I sure didn't.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, he says he's --
14
GREG TO STEVE: Indiscernible!.
STEVE TO GREG: Huh? You what, now?
GREG TO STEVE: That means I've got time
indiscernible!.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's wondering about the
accommodations if he came out, he said. He's not --
he's still needs to know a lot more and he said he's
been watching what's been going on here and --
TONY: Well, Steve, all I can do is tell you
about what, what the accommodations are out here. You
know, I can tell you and hopefully you'd believe me.
And the accommodations are such, obviously, the pers--
people are going to be processed through. You know,
they're going to be taken out, as we've said before,
taken out to where they're -- and they'll be searched.
And, I mean, there's no secret about that and I --,.
f STEVE SCHNEIDER: Right.
J
TONY: -- think you understand that.
STEVE TO GREG: Do you want to talk to him,
Greg?
GREG TO STEVE: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Greg says --
GREG TO STEVE: Indiscernible!.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Do you want to talk to
Greg?
TONY: Sure.
15
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Just a minute, Tony.
Here he is.
STEVE TO GREG: Here.
GREG
nowhere now.
GREG
TONY
GREG
TONY
GREG
TONY
GREG
TONY
GREG
_ TONYOR STEVE IN BACKGROUND!: Don't go
SOMMERS: Hello?
Hey, Greg?
SOMMERS: Yes.
Tony here.
SOMMERS: Nice to meet you, Tony.
Same here, Greg. How are you doing?
SOMMERS: Oh, I could be better and --
I _-
SOMMERS: -- in a better situation.
I'll bet, yeah. I heard you have some
questions about the accommodations or something?
1 GREG
4SOMMERS: Well, no, actually, I've been
waiting for a response from, what, John Cox? Or --
it's been a week now.
TONY: For what?
GREGSOMERS: He said he was going to get
back to me. Apparently, it was mentioned in the 10:30
briefing that -- no, maybe it wasn't in the 10:30
briefing. Maybe it was said over the intercom out here
in front that a Michael Sommers called and -- of which
it was stated that we were all notified of these
I
I
92
Q
~
,.
~O O
16
certain individuals that had called. And he being
related to me, I was never made aware of that.
TONY: Okay.
GREG SOMMERS: He never called. And he was
going to get back to me on what the actual message was;
TONY: Okay. I'll check with John on that
myself. When I'm done here, I'll find him and see if I
can find out. And what it was related to? You say --
who was it? Michael Sommers?
GREG SOMMERS: Michael Sommers, yeah.
TONY: Okay. And it was about a week ago,
you say, Greg?
GREG SOMMERS: Yeah.
TONY: Okay. I'll see what, what that's
about. If there's something here, obviously we'll get
it to you, because that's what we're doing. And --
5 GREG SOMMERS: And, appar--
4
V TONY: - maybe he just didn't find it or it
-- look, I don't know.
GREG SOMMERS: Yeah.
TONY: I can't, you know, I can't give you an
answer because I don't know that. But I'll, I'll be --
GREG SOMMERS: Well, he's probably been
pretty tired, just never got around it.
TONY: Yeah, but my understanding is you had
some questions here that -- concerning the
1
92
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i 17
accommodations, according to Steve.
GREG SOMMERS: Well, no. I don't really have
any questions.
TONY: Oh.
GREG SOMMERS: I, you know, I simply go by
the evidence that is present.
TONY: Which is?
GREG SOMMERS: Well, see, I'm one of the guys
back in 1988 that was accused of attempted murder. I
don't know if you're aware of that or not?
TONY: Yeah. Um-hum.
GREG SOMERS: Okay. Basically, I see that
as being -- as we were set up.
TONY: Well, but you -- the -- you got --
nothing happened on that. You were acquitted of that,
correct?,.
5 GREG SOMMERS: After 45,000, nothing
happened.
TONY: Well, I understand that, but what I'm
saying --
GREG SOMMERS: Yeah.
TONY: -- is the, the fact remained that the
Justice system did come in to play and you were
acquitted of it, as opposed to being sent to prison for
it. ~
GREG SOMMERS: Okay. Well, well, let me just
tell you where
TONY :
GREG
statements all
from is I know
five years ago
TONY
GREGO
18
I'm coming from.
Okay.
SOMMERS: _Okay? I mean, you can make
you want, but what -- where I'm coming
what the Justice system was all about
and it --
Um-hum.
SOMMERS: -- it laid it right out in
front of me. I got a real good chunk of it, real good
taste. I was in jail for two-and-a-half months before
we could afford bail. The jury members even told us
the second day
to discuss it or anything, that we were -- that we
they could seeof the trial, before they even went in
that we were obviously innocent and that
the Sheriff's Department was obviously hiding some
things, especially Dickerson, who's now in a coma. I1.
wonder why. Not only that, we've brought in
.3 .information to the Sheriff's Department after we
regained the property of Donnie Joe Harvey's little
methamphetamines factory he had going on out here.
when we regained the property, we confiscated
everything that we had. We turned it into the
Sheriff's Department, and nothing has ever been said
about it.
TONY: Okay. Well --
GREG SOMMERS: But yet we're --
O O i
T 19
TONY: Let me explain something.
GREG SOMMERS: Let me finish. Let me finish.
And this is all being thrown around at us that the
reason the National Guard came in is because there is
evidence of methamphetamines, and there's not a person
out here that does --
TONY: Okay.
GREG SOMMERS: -- drugs or would even
consider doing it.
TONY: I understand what you're saying there.
And all I can say to that is when -- once we get this
resolved here --
GREG SOMMERS: Well --
TONY: -- these an-- let, let me finish a
minute. Once we get this resolved, this matter will be
resolved. If there are no amphetamines in there, then1.
there's nothing to be concerned about. Okay?
l? _ case SOMERS: You know --
TONY: Before, what, what you were talking --
GREG SOMERS: Indiscernible! --
TONY: -- about earlier concerning the
Sheriff's Office, this -- we're not involved with the
Sheriff's Office right here. We're talking about
solely a completely different matter.
GREG SOMMERS: You're right. You're right.
TONY: Okay. I can't go back into the past
A 20
on that, Greg.
GREG SOMMERS: Okay. Look --
TONY: I can, I can answer --
GREG SOMMERS: -- I'm looking at the
present --
TONY: -- I can answer for what right now, in 92
the --
GREG SOMMERS: Tony, I'm --
TONY: - situation we have here.
GREG SOMMERS: -- looking, I'm looking at the
present presently.
TONY: Okay.
GREG SOMERS: I'm seeing what you guys say
at the briefings and I'm seeing what you guys say over
, 92the loudspeaker, and it's contrary to the truth. i
TONY: Okay, then --
, GREG SOMMERS: You expect me to go by that.
. 'TONY: -- my answer to that is --
GREG SOMMERS: Is to con--
TONY: -- if that is contrary to the truth --
GREG SOMERS: Yeah, come out and go to the
court system, which I don't --
TONY: Exactly. Right.
GREG SOMMERS: -- trust, I don't trust that
at all.
TONY: Well, you know, I can't --
GREG
you guys.
TONY
GREG
TONY
GREG
guys are going
truth. It's -
TONY
GREG
TONY
no sense discussing it
obviously, if I can, I
resolve this.I .
g 21
SOMMERS: Because I don't trust any of
: Well --
SOMMERS: You particularly --
: All right. Pardon me?
SOMMERS: But the ethics in which you
about, it's all wrong. It's not the
: Well
SOMMERS: -- also -- it's satanic.
: Well, if you -- if -- I mean, there's
any further if -- I mean,
can tell you we want you to
We want people to come out of there and
get this resolved. Obviously, if you don't have any
faith in what I'm saying, then there's nothing further1.
to discuss here. Is that correct?
?
. GREG
-- I'm, I'm --
TONY
GREG
TONY
GREG
TONY
GREGSOMMERS: Well, I'm, I'm one of the very
say, the majority of --
: Okay.
SOMMERS: You know --
: I understand. Is Steve there?
SOMMERS: Yeah, sure. Hold on a second.
: Let me talk to Steve.
SOMERS: He's smiling.
STEVE TO GREG: I'm what, HOW?
L
r
92
,.920*
22
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Hello?
TONY: Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: I thought you said he had questions.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I thought he did.
Why? What did he have to say? I, I, I was --
TONY: Oh, well, he just gets on the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I was trying to go see
David for a moment. _
TONY: Well, he said you were standing there
smiling.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I, I don't know how
he could say that, because it's so dark in here I can't
-- I could hardly --
TONY: Well, I'm just --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- see him.
, TONY: -- I'm just telling you what he said.
1 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh.
TONY: No, that's, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That, that -- he could --
TONY: -- that's all right. There's no
problem. All it was --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: -- if, if they got questions, I'll be
happy to answer it, but I'm not going into some
diatribe about, you know, what happened four or five or
r
92
,-
92
p
u.I I he
23
six years ago.
won't.
STEVEI can't go into that, obviously, and I
SCHNEIDER: I see. All right. Now,
what are you talking --
TONY:
charges that he
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVEWell, concerning the murder -- the
faced earlier.
SCHNEIDER: Oh, I see. I see.
when was that? '88 or --
SCHNEIDER: '87, actually --
'87, okay.
SCHNEIDER: -- is when it took place,
and I, I guess that that trial was in '88.
TONY:
to go back into
STEVE
TONY:
choice. And if
T} STEVE
TONY:
there's nothing
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
by the way --
TONY:
STEVEYeah. Well, I can't -- I'm not going
it. If he feels that the --
SCHNEIDER: No; I understand.
- system is unfair, that's his
he's --
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I know. I --
-- if he says he doesn't trust me,
SCHNEIDER: I --
-- further to discuss with him.
SCHNEIDER: What we're going to do, by,
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: -- I'll take the -- I'm
24
going to take the pictures of the children, but it'll
have to be, you know, when the morning comes, because
there's no light here whatsoever.
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
with somebody?
STEVE
out tomorrow as
take very long.
TONY:
tomorrow?
STEVE
TONY:
f STEVE
¢
some kindThat's fine.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
Then --
SCHNEIDER: So --
-- are you going to send those out
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'll, I'll send that
soon as I'm done. It probably won't
Do you think you'll send 20 people out
SCHNEIDER: I -- Oh, man. I, I'm --
Steve, you've got to work on this.
SCHNEIDER: Tony, I'm trying to find
of ground to reestablish trust and get these
people looking to - like it's not so bad. But when
they hear about
they hear -- when they realize what happenedsomeone like Kathy Schroeder. When
t0
Livingston, he never called back. I mean --
TONY:
Livingston.We told you -- we went over that with
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know. No, I know that.
TONY: There's --
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE25
SCHNEIDER: But I --
No --
SCHNEIDER: -- I'm telling you, they --
that doesn't make a difference with them, though, Tony.
TONY:
STEVEI understand that. I --
SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! I know what
you're explaining and saying to me, but when I go and
talk to them and that --
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
that. I really
tell you guys.
TONY :
< iWell, then, they don't believe you?
SCHNEIDER: No, they don't.
Well, then, obviously, you don't --
SCHNEIDER: They don't.
-- have that much influence with them.
SCHNEIDER: I -~ you're right about
don't. That's what I've been trying to
Well, well, how about -- well, as I
talked to you here the other night when you and I spoke
and you said that you just wanted toocome out of here
yourself. You said you're so tired of this and you
want to come out of here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I -- believe me, I've
been giving -- I - a week and a half ago, especially
then I gave it a lot of thought, and even in the last
few days. It always gets back to, for me, the direct--
TONY: Well, why don't you make that
<
decision? Steve, the best thing you can do -- if, if,26
if you're sincere, Steve, about getting this resolved,
if you want to handle getting this matter resolved, the
best thing you can do for those people in there is if
they sincerely don't believe what's - what we're
saying out here is to have somebody that maybe they'll
have some faith in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But you see, Tony --
TONY: Just -- let me, let me finish. And if
that means that you come out yourself and make that
call in to tell them that, yes, we are sincere in what
we are saying out here, then maybe they'll, they'll
look and say well, Steve's out there. He is --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I realize all that.
TONY: He's convinced that what is happening
out there is correct and we can get this matter ended.
1 STEVE SCHNEIDER: The greatest conviction I
have of any of the awareness of my being a human being,
being able to gain and listen to and soak in
information after all this time, I'm convicted that
what's been shown to me from one source out of this
crazy life of mine called the giblg is, is the truest
thing I've ever seen, the most consistent answer.
TONY: Well, I'm not going into that, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I know you're not.
TONY: Okay.
27
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But my -- that's where --
for me, I came here long before this event took place
of February 28th. I was here by choice. I left my
beautiful Hawaiian home.
TONY: Okay. I, I understand the reasons why
you're in there. I have no --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
TONY: -- problem with that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, well, see, that's why
it's not so easy, because even for myself --
TONY: Well, what I'm --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I --
TONY: -- referring to is what you said
earlier to me, Steve, is that you wanted to get this
resolved.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I do.
j TONY: That you were tired of it, you wanted
to 5- you said: I wish --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I said --
TONY: -- I was out of here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I said I'd like to see --
TONY: We wish you were out of there too.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know, because the same
thing --
TONY: I mean, that's old stuff what you're
telling me.
281 _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll tell you what's really
bothering -- I know, but if you would have listened to
what I was saying to --
TONY: I did.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- John-4 today, what I was
saying to him, how what bothers me about hearing this
what's-his-name, David Troy, it blew me away what the
man was saying about drugs --
TONY: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and all that. So -- and
people don't even smoke and drink here. They don't --
TONY: Okay. If there's no such thing there,
then come out and show it. Come out and, and make your
point known. You have that option and you know under
the law you will have that right to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If this --
5 TONY: -- to prove -- V
I? STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Government allows a man
to, to make up and contrive that kind of thing over the
national airways, the guy --
TONY: Now, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- has the freedom to make
up any kind of rotten lies in behalf of the Government,
if that's as bad as this --
TONY: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Government has gotten --
r
92
4-
~
0
~_O I' 92 29
TONY: Steve, will --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's what's bothering me,
Tony. Who --
TONY: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- wants to come out into
such a thing? I want to see a guy like him shackled
and handcuffed. Take him off to --
TONY: Okay, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- jail for having --
TONY: Slow it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- such a loose, loose
attitude about human life and, and dignity.
TONY: Okay. Well, I'm not going to go into
that beyond this. Okay? I want, I want to ask you.
gswsvs SCHNEIDER: Okay. Go ahead.
TONY: Do -- are you going to have anybody
come out tonight?
3 STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's not that I can -- I
can't force anybody --
TONY: I understand.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- to go.
-TONY: Are you going to ask anybody about
coming out tonight?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: 1 have all -- I actually
did today. When -- I just -- yeah, I said anybody here
want to -- I -- Tony, I don't think anybody wants to
O O
30
come out until there's something --
TONY: Are you going to come out?
STEVE SCHNEIDER; -- to show me. No, I'm
nOt .
TONY: You're not going to come out?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I'm not.
TONY: Okay. Is David there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I just went to see him and
he's still sick. He says he's hoping he can recover,
maybe tomorrow. He says -- right now he says he just
can't do it.
TONY: We'd like to talk to him tonight.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you would --
TONY: I have some information for him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but, but I already -- I
-- honestly, that's where I was. When you were talking,.
to Greg, I went over there and I says is there any way
J
-- can you just -- can I at least try to somehow hook
up this phone and, and you can just say hello to him or
something.
TONY: Why don't you hook the phone and get
it to him. ~ A
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I just --
TONY: We -- I want you to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Look, I can't --
TONY: -- take the phone to him.
31
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How, how we -- how is one
able to force somebody to do any - I can't do it. How
can I do it, Tony? How can I force him to do --
TONY: Just hand him the phone. I don't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- something he didn't want
to do? Can I force you to go back to where your home
is right now?
TONY: Steve, all I want to do is pass one
question off to him, just one.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you do, but he just
won't --
TONY: And if you can hand him the phone --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I asked him. I says if
they -- all he wants to do is at least say something
that --
~ TONY: Just say something. He doesn't even
hajé to respond to me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know. I realize that.
TONY: I just need to pass some information
off to him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I just asked him. He
said no to me. What am I --
TONY: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's just --
TONY: -- then it's obvious he doesn't want
to get his resolved, as you don't.
O O
32
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay.
TONY: I, I mean --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If that's what you want to
say, I mean, you --
TONY: Steve, I, I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- people put, put words
into my mouth. You say what you want to say and you
believe what you want to believe --
TONY: I, I don't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- from me.
TONY: -- want to believe that. I would
rather believe that, that you are sincere in getting
this resolved and that David is. We are sincere in
getting this resolved out here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: ¢I real--
TONY: We are sincere --1
i STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I realize --
? TONY: -- and I'm not lying to you that, and
you can --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know that. I know that.
But I realize also --'
TONY: But it, but it appears --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - that you --
TONY: -- there's only one side --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- don't understand --
TONY: -- of this get -- willing to get this
resolved.
STEVE33
SCHNEIDER: You don't understand the
conviction, how deep it is, and what our priorities
are, first, before men. See, this world means nothing
to me, Tony. I don't care if I ever had or -- any
material -- I mean, running all over this -- the --
these things out here doesn't mean a thing to me. I
really don't care about that. I've lived 43 years in
this crazy world
TONY:
STEVEI know what you're saying.
SCHNEIDER: And I just want to be right
with God. I want to make --
TONY:
STEVEYou, you were --
SCHNEIDER: -- sure that I've done the
right thing with my fellow man, and I --
1
I
<>
here?
they cameTONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:You can't honestly say this --
SCHNEIDER: -- believe I have.
-- is the right thing that's happening
SCHNEIDER: It wasn't from that --
It's --
SCHNEIDER: -- Sunday, February -- when
I'm not going to talk February 28th.
SCHNEIDER: N0, I --
What I'm saying is --
i34
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- but I will tell you --
TONY: -- I'm saying from what's happened --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that they breached --
TONY: -- beyond that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and broke the --
TONY: -- to this point.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Constitution.
There are --
TONY: Whatever it --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- elements in this society
and country that are doing all they can to bring down
the foundations of the freedom of the -- that there was
3 " .
TONY: The only way we can --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- found --
TONY: -- end this whole thing --
1 STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you and I.
4
TONY: -- Steven, is, is if we have a
mutually agreed upon consensus of how it's going to be
done.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll tell you right now --
TONY: One party can't end this, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll tell you that --
TONY: Our side -- let me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you know, you can
tell --
O O
35
TONY: -- let me finish here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - you can tell the ATP
that, everybody will come out --
TONY: Let me finish what I'm saying. In
order to resolve this, it's going to have to take a
consensus agreement by both parties, the parties here
and the parties inside there. One party cannot agree
to it. And we are willing to make the agreement to
resolve this. And it's very difficult to do this when
the second party is unwilling to do so, and that's
exactly what's happening here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah, because we're the
mice in the trap.
TONY: You're not the mice. We, we are --
everything is going to be fair. We just want to get
this resolved here. The word's out at this point
here --
J? STEVE SCHNEIDER: It doesn't seem
indiscernible! --
TONY: -- and move on to resolve the other
issues.
"STEVE SCHNEIDER: I look at --
TONY: You say you want the other issues
resolved. The only way they will ever be resolved is
once this matter is taken care of. And until this
matter is taken care of, nothing else can get resolved.
O' O:
36
It's as --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I don't believe --
TONY: -- simple as that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you that hardly anybody
will be walking out of and away from this. When I hear
about Kathy Schroeder, what's happened to her already
and --
TONY: Come on, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the bond was already
posted, and then all of a sudden -- this attorney
general --
TONY: Steve, that's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- can come around and
manufacture --
TONY: No.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- a new problem --
I, TONY: That's not going to happen, Steve.
4
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- day after day after day.
TONY: Steve, it's not going to happen. I
absolutely assure you it is -- nothing has been
manufactured and nothing will be manufactured --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You guys were -- you were
actually inferring to me, implying that she was going
to be out and so forth on bond. Look what's
happened --
TONY: Steve --
STEVE
TONY :
was said,
STEVE
TONY :
decide at
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
I'm not going to sit and tell
of here, Steve,
you out of jail37
SCHNEIDER: -- to her now.
If you will, if you will realize what
we said we don't know what will happen.
SCHNEIDER: You --
What will happen is the courts will
what point something's going to happen.
SCHNEIDER: Well, I --
Not us sitting here --
SCHNEIDER: Maybe I could --
-- trying to get this matter -- we --
you that if you walk out
that oh, sure thing, Steve, we'll get
in two days. I -- no, I'm not going to
say that. I can't. That's --
:STEVESCHNEIDER: Why should I have to spend
two days in jail for?
1.
1 3
I'm?saying --
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
hang me by the neck just because I was even involved inI'm not saying you will or you won't.
SCHNEIDER: You know I will. You guy--
-- I'm not in that position --
SCHNEIDER: They'll want to --
-- to make that decision.
SCHNEIDER: -- hang me by the neck.
Pardon me?
SCHNEIDER: They'll probably want to
38
talking from day one, trying to find out who was
attacking us, who was trying to take our lives, what
the reasons were behind it all. I mean, since then --
TONY: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I have heard that it was
because of weapons, which was supposed to be a
guarantee by the Second Amendment.
TONY: Steve, I, I believe you're a very
intelligent man.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I believe I am too --
TONY: I, I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- to be honest with you.
TONY: -- I honestly believe that. And I
believe you -- that you -- you should be rational
enough to understand until we get this matter resolved
here we cannot get into these other issues, because
it's, it's -- _
4 STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's right. That's
right.
TONY: - it's a moot point.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What -- do you want me to
walk into the mouth of the dragon? There's insidious
elements in this society. You'd have to be a blind
man --
TONY: No.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - and an igmo not to see
. 39
the, the missing dimensions of the -- I've been a
history student
TONY:
STEVE
my life.
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
indiscernible!
TONY:
STEVEwhat about --
SCHNEIDER: -- all my life, Tony. All
Okay.
SCHNEIDER: Look'it, I really have.
Let me, let me take --
SCHNEIDER: I, I can't
-- another step here, Steve.
SCHNEIDER: Let me tell you this. I
met an admiral of the United States Navy, a retired
admiral. This man showed me documentation of the
things that have been going on behind the scenes. It
was a mind-blower to me. I asked --
g TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
absolutely --
STEVE
TONY:
STEVEWell, I don't --
SCHNEIDER: -- a lot of questions --
-- know anything about that. That is
SCHNEIDER: Well, I, I can't --
Okay.
SCHNEIDER: -- believe that, you being
as old as you are with your education --
TONY:
here, Steve?What are you saying, I'm an old man
40
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, you're definitely my
age or older.
TONY: Yeah, I'm about your age
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, anyway, I mean, I
don't believe you're that naive. I really don't.
TONY: I'm not naive, Steve, but in that same
rega-- in the same regard, and I'm very realistic as to
what's happening today.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Can I ask you a question?
Are you aware of the Trilateral Commission? Have you
ever heard of that group?
TONY: Yes, I have. That has, that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What do you think of them?
TONY: -- has nothing to do
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know it
TONY: -- and I'm not going
/ STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes, they
J
' TONY: -- into other issues
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes, they
association, Bush's association --
TONY: Okay.t'.O
do
doyes, they do.
9° "
Clinton's
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What do you mean they don't
have anything. They're, they're men from --
TONY: That -- what's happening here,
Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What do you think about it?
' /2
' {
41
TONY: -- you're going off into issues --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'd like t0 hear - I'd --
I wouldn't --
TONY: -- that have nothing to do
happening here. I
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NO,
issue.
TONY: Steve, what --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
very things. They really --
about --
TONY: Okay.The
itit's really
Bible talks
really doeswith what's
part of the
you're --
about these
. It talks
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the merchants being the
great men of the earth. That is the indiscernible! --
TONY: Is David there?
srsvz scrmmvzm
TONY: Steve, I'm
these other issues --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
TONY: -- because
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
both of us, today? What if
Where, where are you going?
God?Tony.
not going to de-- discuss
What do
it's --
What if
a plane
Do youyou think?
you and I died,
crashed in on you.
believe there's a
TONY: I know where I'm going to go, yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, where are you going?
_ 25A _ 42
TONY: I'm prepared to go to heaven.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are you really?
TONY: Yes, I am.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: So, what do you believe
indiscernible!?
TONY: That has nothing to do with this
issue, and I'm not going to discuss where I'm going or
where you're going --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, maybe you can help me
get out of this building by helping me --
TONY: Do you want to get out of --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- see indiscernible! --
TONY: -- that building? I'll help you get
out of that building. If you want out of that --
{STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is like --
TONY: ~- building, I'll help you get out.
j STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- indiscernible! being at
4
a vantage point, because the reason I came here is
because I wanted to see a sourcebook that could show me
some very --
TONY: Okay. _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - some answers.
TONY: Then, then, then -- all right. I'm
trying to get this matter resolved and I'm, I'm one
party here that's trying to get it. I'm obviously have
not -- not having that cooperation from the other end.
It's obvious that you don't
resolved, Steve
STEVE
whole thing --
TONY:
STEVESCHNEIDER:
If --
SCHNEIDER:
called trust. That's where
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:Then trust
SCHNEIDER:
Then trust43
want to get this matter
I don't -- tri-- the, the
comes down to a word
me.
that's where it lies.
me. I am --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! ~-
TONY: -- not going to tell you anything,
Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How can I --
TONY: -- that I can't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - trust you when what1.
happened with Livingston, Kathy Schroeder, who knows
3
what --
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVEWe went through Livingston
SCHNEIDER: -- indiscernible! the --
-- and I can't go into that --
SCHNEIDER:
-- because
SCHNEIDER:
-- created
SCHNEIDER:-- with John and I --
Livingston --
I, I'll be honest --
that problem.
-- with you, I don't buy
D D
m 44
it. I know the man.
TONY: And I can't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and he was totally
out --
TONY: Fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's out of character for
him, totally out of character. I've never seen
anything like that.
TONY: I can't help it. If I go up to a man
and say we'd like you to send a message in there, to
call in there. I'm not doing it, I don't work for the
Government. What can I do? I'm not going to force
him. If I would have done it and I said you will make
this call and forced him --
:STEVE SCHNEIDER: Of course not. That --
TONY: Steve, if --
f STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that was --
4 -
A TONY: -- if were to force him to make the
call and he said I am being --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He said this was one --
TONY: -- forced to make this call, your
answer to me would have been: see, that's exactly what
you do, you force people to do things. So, it's a no-
win proposition for me. l
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That's an insult even
bringing up that --
x Q92
45
TONY: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - kind of an argument,
because you know --
TONY: Now, don't make --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that here you're getting
off on a tangent, off to something --
TONY: Steven?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- that was never raised --
TONY: I, I don't think, I don't think I'm
off on a tangent here. I think you are. I told you
about Livingston. There's not a thing I can --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How, how I could --
TONY: -- do about that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: How can I believe that,
though? I mean, they're telling me that he said some
upsetting things about mud on his shoes and the second
sta%e-- indiscernible! --
hi TONY: I'm not talking about the mud on his
shoes. Steve. It's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I --
TONY: -- muddy out there, Steve. What do
you expect? .
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- so did Byron. I believe
some -- so did another. I think it was probably --
well, I'm forgetting who I'm all talking to you these
days, it's getting to be so many.
. _;
46
TONY: Well, just one of them. Wait, wait,
wait --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No --
TONY: -- about -- it's -- it has nothing --
I can't talk about the mud. It's muddy out there.
What do you expect me to do? I mean, see him walk out
of there and he doesn't have mud on his feet?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, see, that wasn't --
TONY: Come on.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the issue.
TONY: I mean, you're right, it's not -- it's
a non-issue.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He would never have gotten
mud -- just we -- mad because he got mud on his shoes,
because he did that walking out there and he didn't
make any big deal about it. I want to know what
happened between the time he disappeared around --
i TONY: well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- the Bradley till the
time he got there.
TONY: He's perfectly fine.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Did you have him lay in the
mud --
TONY: He's perfectly fine and --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- with his leather jacket
on or something?
I
925
TONY:
he'd be allowed
he doesn't want
that. He's gotI STEVE
here?
TONY :47
-- and if he wanted to call you today,
to do so. But he's, he's obviously --
to do that. And why, I can't answer
an attorney.
SCHNEIDER: He is allowed to call me
He, he has an attorney, and his
attorney -- he has that option. But if, if his
attorney doesn't want him to do that, that's their
problem.
STEVE
TONY:
STEVESCHNEIDER: Just a minute.
I can't go into that, Steve.
TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Is that right?
He said on CNN live or CNN that he reported he was not
allowed to call
indiscernible!1.
I STEVE
'* TONY =
STEVE
to call out.
TONY:
attorney. I'm not going into that. What I want you to
do --out like they said he
SCHNEIDER: He reported live on CNN --
Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: -- that he was not allowed
Well, that's between him and his
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Did you hear that?
Because --
TONY:Is
Yes, I heard what you're saying.
48
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - you just told me
something totally opposite.
TONY: No, I didn't.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yes. You said he could
even call me here now if he wanted to.
TONY: I'm telling --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You said that.
TONY: -- you what his attorney said. His
attorney obviously is not letting him call out. If he
has the opportunity through his attorney, he will be
able to do that. I'm not going to control what his
attorney's doing. I'm going to get off that issue
because it, it's --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Tony, it --
¬TONY: -- a nonwinnable issue for us, Steve.
It's --
1 STEVE SCHNEIDER: Chances --
é TONY: - not, it's not a thing that's going
to gain anything right here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, then, why -- what are
we talking about?
TONY: That's what I'm saying. Let's -- what
I want you to do, Steve, and I want you to work on
this, because I'm trying to get this resolved.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well --
TONY: I don't know if you are.
STEVE49
SCHNEIDER: You tell me what you want
me to do, and then I'm going to tell you what I want
you to do.
TONY: What I, what I want you to do is I
want you to talk to those people that you can arrange~
to get out of there. You --
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:SCHNEIDER: Then --
-- you've got some --
SCHNEIDER: -- and then they'll want
-- people come in there that you've
brought into there. I would like you to get those
people talked to and tell them to come out. And let
those people --
of those people
the conditions,
.. STEVE
I'd; like you toand if you want them people -- if any
want to call back into you to tell you
fine. I -- you know, I --
SCHNEIDER: You don't like to do what
do, but I know you don't want to do it.
I'm concerned about your soul and your wel1being.
TONY:
STEVE
would be --
TONY:I'll --
SCHNEIDER: I - you know, Tony, I
I'm not, I'm not --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Listen.
TONY: I'm not going to talk about --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You think that I --
TONY: -- my soul and well-being.
O
92
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Listen, Tony50
TONY: I'm talking about one issue here,
Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I would be willing to sit
down and --
TONY: And that's
STEVE SCHNEIDER
with any kind of a questiongetting this
-- you couldresolved.
challenge me
you have in regards to that
book, and let's see if you don't give me --
TONY:
STEVE
logical answers
TONY:
on it.
STEVE
TONY:
I STEVE
4 TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
questions
TONY: All rightThen you COME out - -
SCHNEIDER: -- good, clear, concise,
directly from the pages. Seriously.
You come out and we can have a debate
SCHNEIDER: I don't -- not a debate.
Well --
SCHNEIDER: There's no need for that.
That's right.
SCHNEIDER:
Then you
SCHNEIDER:
to see what youI will share
come out --
I'll -- I'll
can show me in
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - to what's
TONY: You come out here to me
STEVE SCHNEIDER: What --information.
ask you
regards --
going to be.
S 5
51 92
TONY: -- and I will talk to you. You can do
that to me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll give you the same
invitation to come in here. You can sit down, right in
the foyer here. We can sit down. You can talk to
anybody you want here. I guarantee you safe passage on
my life, on my name, on everything. _
TONY: Okay. And I'll do the same for you.
Why don't you come out here now?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. And then I get to
come back in here again?
TONY: I, I -- I'll ask them. And that's
beyond my control, but I will ask them.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: All right.
TONY: And you can come out to us --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, it --
1 TONY: -- and you can talk to us.
4
' STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- should be a scary thing
for me, because, I mean, so far what I've seen, so
far --
TONY: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- with Schroeder and some
of the others, and Livingston.
TONY: Well, then you're back at square one
here, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well indiscernible! if
r
i
K
~
v52
you --
TONY: I mean, you asked me a question. I
could lie to you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no.
TONY: I could have lied to you here and said
absolutely. I'm not lying to you. I'm saying -- I'm
giving you my -- I'm being honorable with you by saying
I'll see.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If --
TONY: I don't know.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Couldn't you gain more
coming here, though? You can even look at part, part
of the premises, not that we'd --
TONY: You can come out --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- allow you to wander
around.,.
.1 TONY: I'll tell you what.. Do you know what
¢
will gain more? You come out here and you spend a day
out here with me and you see what these people are
going through. And then you call in there and say,
yes, these, these men are standing by what they're
saying. _
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Golly, do you mean I'd come
back here?
TONY: Are you -- well, you, you -- whatever.
I'm just saying get the word back into them to say, you
Q »»-
know,'we
get this --
STEVE
roosters are --
TONY :
honorable.
STEVE
outside, unless
TONY :
late.
STEVE
hear that?
TONY :
STEVE
there crowing.
TONY:
I
STEVEI
5? TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
to give him --
STEVE
TONY :
directed --53
can get this perhaps resolved here. We can
SCHNEIDER: The sun's coming up. The
-- resolved because we are being
SCHNEIDER: The roosters are crowing
the sun must be coming up.
Well, I don't think it's quite that
SCHNEIDER: Ha, ha, ha. Tony, did you
Steve? Yes, I hear them.
SCHNEIDER: There's a rooster outside
It's, it's early morning.
SCHNEIDER: Ha, ha. Well --
Is David there?
SCHNEIDER: He's indiscernible! --
I have one question for David.
SCHNEIDER: Oh, what question is that?
I've got to talk to David. I've got
SCHNEIDER: I cannot do it. I mean --
-- one question. It's got to be
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- he won't do it.54
TONY: Look --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He - honestly, he won't do
it. I can indiscernible! --
TONY: I have not been authorized to give it
to anybody but David. If I could, I would give it to
you, but I can't. I mean, the simple thing is to say
let me tell Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: We've got -- here we've --
TONY: N0.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- got chickens on the
front of the house now and on the back. Oh, my
indiscernible! --
TONY: You're evading my question, Steve.
srsvn SCHNEIDER: we11, I'm not -- I'm being
honest with -- entertained.
5 TONY: I know.
? srsva SCHNEIDER: I like to here you laugh.
I mean, that's what I was indiscernible! --
TONY: Well, I like to hear you laughing,
because you seem like you're feeling better. I want
you to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I indiscernible! --
TONY: -- I want you to talk to some people,
Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I will do that.
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
cant get David
TONY:
up to him.
STEVE
to -- hey, Tony
TONY:
STEVE
talk to you any
TONY:
STEVE
indiscernible!
TQNY :I-- and I want you to get them to --
SCHNEIDER: I will do that.
"" COME out.
SCHNEIDER: But I can't -- I mean, I
on the phone if he refuses.
Yes, you can. You can get that phone
SCHNEIDER: I can, but he's not going
he's not going to take it.
What's he afraid of?
SCHNEIDER: He's not afraid -- he'll
day when he, when he's feeling good.
He's, he's afraid --
SCHNEIDER
No --
STEVE SCHNEIDER¬
how}long he talked to you
people?
TONY: Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
something --No. Don't you
I mean, don't you notice
guys, like John and all you
And every time you did
TONY: And we've done nothing.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: NO- I know.
TONY: We have done nothing to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! --
I
92
r
- |
56
TONY: -- get him out of this or to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Tony, that he's not ma-- he
-- every time he --
TONY: - in an adversarial way.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- gets up, every time he
gets up and starts trying to run around --
TONY: I didn't say run around.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: and --
TONY: I said-get the phone to him.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I know that. But I'm
telling you right now he's sti-- he's still sick.
TONY: He does not even have to answer. All
I want is the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Do you know what he told
me?
I TONY: -- phone up to his ear --
5 STEVE SCHNEIDER: I can tell you --
? TONY: -- so I can tell him something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He told me he's not even
been slee-- he thinks he's partially sick too, because
he's not even sleeping anymore because of --
TONY: Steve, I think you're evading it.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I'm --
TONY: He's, he --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- telling you what he told
me when I just went up to --
Q I
_ 57
TONY: You know what?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: While you were talking to
Greg, I went up there, and what he told me was you tell
them that how do they expect me to get sleep to recover
so I can talk to them when they're playing this
morning, noon, and night --
TONY: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- because I haven't been
sleeping.
TONY: I need him on the phone for 30
seconds, and 30 seconds is not -- do you know what I
think? I think he's afraid to face the situation as to
where it is right now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, whatever you think --
TONY: Well, it's got to be.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - is the reason.
g TONY: That's the only ultimatum you're
giving me here. It's the only thing I can surmise of
what's happening.
srsvs TO UNKNOWN INDIVIDUAL: Is anybody
around here that can go check on David again? Hello?
GREG TO STEVE: Yeah.
STEVE TO GREG: Is, is that you, Greg?
GREG TO swsvs: Indiscernible!.
STEVE TO GREG: All right. The -- this is
Tony. He wants to talk to him for at least 30 seconds.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He went to check.
TONY: Okay. I, I just need him for
seconds just to pass --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I told him.
TONY: -- the message on directly to
That's all I need. He doesn't have to talk to
doesn't have to do anything but listen to what
to say, and it's going to take no more than 30
And that's all it is-
STEVE
country are you from?
TONY: From Arizona.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Really?
TONY:
STEVEYes.
SCHNEIDER: Phoenix?
TONY: Phoenix. You're right.
I
1; STEVE
J
frequently. In
about, oh, easily 10 times.
TONY: Is that right?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, yeah.58
30
him.
me. He
I've got
seconds.
SCHNEIDER: So, Tony, what part of the
SCHNEIDER: I pass through there
fact, in the last six months, probably
TONY: It gets, gets kind of warm there,
doesn't it?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Phoenix?
TONY: Yes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well --
92
92
/
92_ 5 9
TONY: It depends what time you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
TONY: -- pull through.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: In fact, I was through
there just -- let's see, it was in February.
TONY: Oh, February's a nice time.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: It wasn't too bad. It
wasn't too --
TONY: Then you should have called me.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I should have stayed there.
TONY: Yeah. That might have been -- you'd
be better off --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I --
TONY: -- where it's at now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - I mean, I haven't done
anything.4.
I. TONY: Okay, then. I
..}
' STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've -- you know, here I
come back here --
TONY: Steve --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm talking with Wayne
Martin. Now, I'm up, up to my neck in I don't know
what.
TONY: Steve, then you're s-- you know,
you're --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Do you know what I
O C
60
actually indiscernible! --
TONY: You passed through Phoenix. We're,
we're, we're like old buddies then, aren't we?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You know what I actually
did in this group?
TONY: What?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I did two things. I, I
used to do a lot of giblg study, but in the last two
years I've been actually involved in music, and that's
what -- that was my area. That was the thing I was
working with.
I TONY: What do you play, guitar?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, I just manage.
TONY: Oh, do you? Because I play guitar.
=STEVE scmmxnsm Really?
1 TONY: Yeah.
;f STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, David would be
deginitely interested in talking to you about that.
TONY: Well, that, that's the - we should.
We should get together and play something.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Are you going to be around
tomorrow at all? Because he's going to -- he's hoping
he's going to at least be able to have some energy
tomorrow. Because he notices about every couple days,
any time he gets up, runs around, he starts feeling ill
again. He, he doesn't even know why. He's been trying
61
to figure out what he should be eating to try to
counter that.
TONY: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They got him
indiscernible! --
TONY: -- as I said, as I told you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: He's indiscernible! to
diet. So.
TONY: As I told you, that's some- something
that's got to get looked at. But that's his choice --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I'm sure. Truth --
TONY: -- when he wants to get that done.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- I really think so too.
I really mean that. I, I'm sure that --
TONY: Yeah.
II STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- you know, there's
probably a problem there too. Because, I mean, they
couad never really look at it that close. The nurses
just looked at the very -- at the surface of it and --
TONY: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER TO STEVE:
Indiscernible!.
TONY: Well, I'd like you to come out and
just sit and talk with me. I really would.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: These people just said that
they just went and knocked on his door and he won't
O O
BTISWEI even.
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:.-_
62
He what?
SCHNEIDER: He won't answer.
Well, then it's obvious - I don't
know what to say, Steve, but it's obvious he doesn't
want to get this taken care of.
STEVE
TONY:
STEVESCHNEIDER: Okay. They said --
You know.
SCHNEIDER: -- they, they think he's
sleeping right now, because he hasn't been doing much
with all the other noises and sounds.
TONY: Well, you know, I can -- that -- if he
came out, all those noises and sounds would stop.
STEVE
TONY:
-- forhhi-- not
in there, if he
A? STEVE
way --
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVESCHNEIDER: Well --
If he wanted, if he wanted to get this
only for his sake, but for the people
wanted to really and truly --
SCHNEIDER: I sure wish there was a
-- get this matter resolved.
SCHNEIDER: -- you could --
He would come out, as, as you would.
SCHNEIDER: I sure wish for a moment
you just had the same understanding as I --
TONY:
STEVEI -_
SCHNEIDER: -- do about that
[
920 0
63
indiscernible! --
TONY: Steve, I have probably as much and,
and - or more understanding than a lot of people.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm talking about the giblg
indiscernible! --
TONY: I understand the ggglg. I'm, I'm a
Christian. I, I'm --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: That doesn't mean --
TONY: -- I'm not going to go --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- anything.
TONY: I'm not going to go into my Christian
beliefs or yours --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, why?
TONY: -- because it, it --
:STEVE SCHNEIDER: It's all the same. If you
know God, why don't you try to help me know your God,
if;he's a, a if he's a indiscernible! --
wé TONY: Come out with me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- God --
TONY: -- and we'll sit and talk. How's
that? We'll get a room, we'll sit and talk, and you
will -- I'll talk about my God and you talk about your
God, and, and we'll be - I'll be more than happy to
sit down with you on that. I have absolutely no
problem. But I'm not going to do it over the phone
here, not while we've got this type of situation that's
I
I
92
,.
~
rgoing on --64
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But I --
TONY: - with those children in there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - indiscernible! God --
TONY: - the people in there that want out.
I'll -- but if you want to come out and talk about it,
absolutely. Beyond that, until we can get this
resolved, Steve, I can't do that. Okay? How about
those, those other two guys that came in there?
them?
me see
there?
0'STEVE SCHNEIDER: Do you want to talk to
TONY: Well, sure. Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. Just a minute. Let
I can't get them to the phone.
STEVE TO DAVE UNKNOWN!
DAVE UNKNOWN! TO STEVE
STEVE TO DAVE UNKNOWN!
DAVE UNKNOWN! TO STEVE
STEVE TO DAVE UNKNOWN!Hello? Who's over
Indiscernible!.
Who?
Dave.
Dave, ask, ask
either Jesse or Lewis if they want to talk to Tony, a
negotiator for the FBI. Ask one of them.
Unidentified voices in background not
discernible.!
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I think there's a clock out
there they've got out in the field there.
65
TONY: Is that -- what? They probably want
to see what time it is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Ha, ha, ha, ha. This --
I've never in my - I never, as long as I have lived,
dreamed I'd ever have an experience like this.
TONY: Well --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Never.
TONY: -- we can stop the experience like
this, can't we?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No. I mean -- go ahead. I
mean, it - the thing - you know, you -- whatever
happened to maturity? I guess it's a bygone thing.
TONY: If, if we had maturity here, this
thing would be over with.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Here's Lewis right here.
This, this is Lewis. He's the guy that's from Houston
5 STEVE TO LEWIS: This is Tony, an FBI
neghtiator.
LEWIS: Hello, Tony.
TONY: Hi, Lewis. How are you doing?
LEWIS: Oh, doing just fine, sir.
TONY: Good.
LEWIS: I mean, this is the most fascinating
group I've ever seen. I mean, you have people here
from all over the world. I mean -~ and the actual
scriptures and, you know --
TONY: Well, I'm not going to in -- as I, as66
I won't discuss with them, Lewis, I'm not going to
discuss any scripture or anything. Okay?
LEWIS: Okay. No problem.
TONY: Yeah, but we'd - while we're -- we'd
like you to come out of there, because I'll tell you
what, this is doing nothing but making this matter
worse --
LEWIS: Well, I --
TONY: -- by your going in there.
LEWIS: -- understand that, sir. I
understand that, you know.
TONY: Okay.
LEWIS: But youall look at it at my, at my
viewpoint. You know, I've been out in --
TONY: Well --
: LEWIS: - the world indiscernible! --
4TONY: We're looking at this for the
viewpoint of a lot of people and not just one --
LEWIS: I understand that.
TONY: -- individuals viewpoint.
LEWIS: I understand that. But, you know,
it's like I've been out in the world and, you know, and
my main --
TONY: Is your, is your --
LEWIS: -- indiscernible! --
, - ,_.,
TONY: - own self-interest?6'7
LEWIS: No. My main desire in the world is
to do what God wanted me to do indiscernible! --
TONY: I know, for your self-interest.
LEWIS: I've been trying to lead the, you
know, the life of God, you know, but all these churches
have never taught me anything. You know? And it's --
TONY: Yeah.
LEWIS: -- like I come here and it's like the
giblg is finally opened to where I can actually --
TONY: Okay.
LEWIS: - see. I mean, it is beautiful.
TONY: So, you don't want to -- you're not --
don't intend to come out of there? Is that correct?
LEWIS: Well, not until I learn a lot more.
TONY: Okay. How about the other individual?¢.
Let me talk to him.
I3
LEWIS: There's another individual here?
TONY: Yeah.
LEWIS: Okay. One second.
LEWIS TO JESSE: He wants to talk to you. He
doesn't want to talk to me no more.
LEWIS: And God bless you and you have a good
day, sir, and may the spirit of the Holy Ghost be with
you and, and may you find strength in God to allow you
to see indiscernible! --
L
K
92TONY:
on, okay?
LEWIS
TONY:
LEWIS
needs help.
JESSE
TONY:
JESSE.
TONY:
JESSE
TONY:
JESSE
TONY:
{JESSE
TONY:
5 JESSE
J
TONY:
JESSE
TONY:
JESSE
TONY:
you live at?68
why don't you put the other individual
-- sir.
Umhum.
Because at this point, sir, everybody
Yes?
Hello?
Yes?
Yeah, who's this?
Jesse.
Jesse.
Yes.
What's, what's your name, Jesse?
Jesse Amen.
Jesse Amen. Where are you from?
I travel. l
Oh, just.
I travel from God.
Oh, is that right?
God sent me here.
Well, why -- where do you, where do
JESSE: I now -- I live in the wind. I
travel in the spirit of God --
TONY: Well, obviously, you came from
69
somewhere, Jesse.
JESSE: Well, I'm telling you the truth. You
asked me a question. I'm going to answer it the way --
TONY: Yeah.
JESSE: -- way --
TONY: What's your date of birth?
JESSE: It doesn't matter, man.
TONY: Oh. Well, obviously you're, you're
afraid of something, Jesse.
JESSE: Not necessarily indiscernible! --
TONY: Well, then why don't you just tell me
who you are?
JESSE: -- being here --
TONY: My name is Tony, Tony Oldam. I'll
tell you who I am. I'll tell you my date of birth if
you want. Tell me yours.
I JESSE: Well, that's -- tell me about the
J
Lord, brother.
TONY: I'm not going to discuss religion.
JESSE: You're not going to - well, now --
TONY: No. No, that's, that's where --
JESSE: I'm not discussing religion either.
I mean, I -- what's your feelings about the Lord?
TONY: I'm not going to discuss religion.
I've already discussed that with --
JESSE: Do you believe in God?
<
K
'-
F
9270
TONY: -- Steven and --
JESSE: Do you believe in God? Do you have a
Elhlg indiscernible! --
TONY: Yes, I do believe in God, but I'm not
going beyond that.
JESSE: Do you believe in Jesus Christ?
TONY: It has nothing to do with this, Jesse.
JESSE: You -- yes, it does. It does.
TONY: Are you a -- intend to come out of
there? I -- let me explain something here, Jesse. You
going in there does nothing but make this matter a lot
worse. Okay? Now, if you're looking for your own
self-interest, that's perfectly fine, because that's
what it appears you're doing. But there are a lot of
people in there whose interests are our concern here
and we're very concerned about their well-being. And
by you going in there, it has not helped this matter a
bit¬ Okay? Now, I know your own self-interest --
JESSE: Well, the Lord sent me in here to
tell --
TONY: -- is taken care of, but I'm not --
you know, and if you're -- that's all you're looking
for is --
JESSE: No, the Lord sent me in here.
TONY: If it's --
JESSE: I'm a witness of God.
71
TONY: Yeah, I know the Lord sent you in
there.
JESSE: Listen, listen -- I'm a wit--
TONY: If your only self-interest --
JESSE: Listen --
TONY: -- is for what you want and then
you're only looking out for yourself, then obviously
that's what you're doing. But if you're truly
concerned about other people --
JESSE: I'm a witness of God and --
TONY: - got to love other people --
JESSE: -- and God's my witness --
TONY: - you will come out of there.
JESSE: That I'm here because God wants me to
be here. Now, if you want to get in an argument --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Indiscernible!.
j TONY: No, I'm not arguing.
J}
- JESSE: -- arguing with God --
TONY: -- I'm just telling you the facts, the
way they are, because I'm looking at reality.
JESSE: I'm looking at reality.
TONY: Okay. You're looking at your own
self-interest.
JESSE: You guys need to indiscernible!.
TONY: You're looking at your own self-
interest.
JESSE: I -- something ain't right here. I72
mean, look at the picture. Something ain't right.
You're trespassing on a man's land and --
TONY: Well, it appears you are too.
JESSE: -- and, and is it -- this is America,
right?
TONY: It appears you're trespassing.
JESSE: Okay. You're trespassing on a man's
land. .
TONY: Look.
JESSE: And what you're doing isn't right,
man.
TONY: It's obvious you don't know the --
JESSE: It's God's will --
TONY: -- issues involved here.
JESSE: -- and God's people are being --
7 TONY: Is, is Steve there?
I JESSE: - put on red alert right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:_ Jesse.
TONY: Is Steve there? Let me talk to Steve,
because it's obvious --
JESSE: A11 right.
TONY: -- you're only concerned about your
own ego.
JESSE: Jesse Amen's the name.
TONY: Yeah. Okay. Okay, Jesse Amen.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:73
Hello?
TONY: Hey, Steve?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
TONY: It's Tony.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:Yeah?
Okay.
TONY: You've got two real problems there,
Steve, whether you -- I --
sincerely. The, these are
areas - and I, I hope you
concerned about you people
These two individuals just
nothing but making a whole
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
We are.and I'm telling you
going to be some problem
can see that. We're
and you people in there.
coming in there are doing
lot of problems.
we're working with them.
TONY: I want them out, Steve. I want you to
talk them out. I want you
thefword out on the street
4to tell them to go profess
what you're doing, whatever
you need to say. I want you to get them out of there.
And I'm sincere about that
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I know you are.
TONY: The other things we're talking about,
we've got basically two issues we're dealing with. One
is your particular issue which we're trying to work on.
The other is these two guys, and I want them out of
there. I want you to do that for us.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: You sound like John Cox.
TONY :
STEVEg '74
It's -- pardon me?
SCHNEIDER: You almost sound like --
identical to John Cox --
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVEOh, gee. Don't tell me that.
SCHNEIDER: Anyway - -
Steve, I need you to do that.
SCHNEIDER: You got to -- but you'd
have to read Matthew 25, verses 31 through 46
indiscernible!
TONY:
We know that.
STEVE
whole life is.
TONY:
STEVE
to me,-
TONY =
J STEVE
anybody out. I
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
are --
STEVESteve, I'm not going to go into this.
SCHNEIDER: I know. But that's what my
Okay. I know.
SCHNEIDER: If some-- if someone comes
I understand that.
SCHNEIDER: Well, see, I can't cast
really can't.
Yes, you can.
SCHNEIDER: I can't.
If they're a problem --
SCHNEIDER: I really can't.
Steve, you've got two individuals
SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! --
,-
9275
TONY: -- concerned about their own
particular egos.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- God myself and I can't
go casting someone out when they've come to us.
TONY: Then, then you're not concerned about
resolving this issue, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm, I'm concerned about
your soul and theirs and my own.
TONY: Don't worry about my soul. I'll take
care of my soul.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I am. Well, you --
TONY: Okay. I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If you say you believe in
Christ --
TCNY: I d0.
~ STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- Christ says we've got to
be éoncerned about every soul that we come into
contact --
TONY: Okay, Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- with.
TONY: I'll worry about mine. Let's worry
about this issue here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm worried about yours --
TONY: We've, we've got --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- and I hope you're
worried about mine.
4
I
92-TONY :. 76
- two separate issues. We've got two
separate issues here we're dealing with. One is these
two individuals who can be real potential problems
here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They -- they're -- don't
worry about them. They're indiscernible! --
TONY :No, I, I want you to --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They're, they're okay.
Honest.
TONY : I want you to get them out of there.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Don't worry. They're okay.
TONY : If, if you want to show any good faith
here at all of doing anything, do that for us. Get
them out of there. And at least we can go back to our
people and say hey, he did get those out of there for
us. What - let's see what we can do here.
I
j STEVE SCHNEIDER: I've got to put God first.
You can tell that on the press. You can --
TONY :
STEVE
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
You know what I
Steve.
STEVE_Okay.
SCHNEIDER: -- I indiscernible! --
Well, I'm, I'm not going to --
SCHNEIDER: -- indiscernible! --
-- I'm not going to beat a dead horse.
want. You know what I want here,
SCHNEIDER: I want eternal --
1
92
92
4-
f
KTONY: It'S --77
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- life.'
TONY: And you know what I want. I want to
get this --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And I want to see you.
TONY: -- matter resolved. I'd like to go
home to my family too.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'd like to go -
TONY: Okay?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - home to my Father in
heaven for evermore.
TONY: Okay. What I - is Dave going to --
David going to be able to come to the phone?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, not tonight. I
indiscernible! --
_ TONY: He's not going to get up at all
tonight?
S? STEVE SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! --
TONY: You got, you got any people talked out
for tonight or getting them prepared to come out
tomorrow?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I haven't - well, I
haven't talked to anybody since you and I have been on
the phone.
TONY: Are you going to talk to anybody?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll try, but I don't think
1
92
r
92
/
92. 78
it's going to get anywhere, just because of what's
happened in the
TONY:
days is not our
STEVE
TONY:
STEVElast few days.
Well, what's happened the last few
fault. Okay?
SCHNEIDER: Well, you know --
It'S --
SCHNEIDER: What -- we can be done
about the man Troy, David Troy, and his mouth across
national TV. I
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:
concerned about
be resolved.
STEVE
TONY:
I
3 srsvz
TONY:
STEVE
TONY:mean that --
If, if you're concerned --
SCHNEIDER: - indiscernible! people.
If you're concerned, if you're
getting your message across, that can
SCHNEIDER: I'm, I'm concerned about --
I --
SCHNEIDER: -- men of that --
Then discuss --
SCHNEIDER: -- position.
-- that issue with the press when you
get out. Come out. As I told you, Steve, you said,
you know, you said that you would like to sit down and
talk about some of these issues. Absolutely. You come
out with me. We'll sit and talk about these things,
and I'll be more than happy to sit with you for as much
time as you want and listen to what you've got to say.
. 79
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'll see if I can --
TONY: But not under the circumstances -
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! --
TONY: - we're in now.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- for a handout.
TONY: Not while children's lives are
endangered here.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: They really aren't in
danger. Only if you put them in danger. Right now
the --
TONY: We're not putting them in danger,
Steve.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: See, then they're not in
danger. ,
TONY: We have got to get this matter
resolved.
0'
y swsva SCHNEIDER: They honestly aren't in
danger right now. They really aren't.
TONY: Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm not, I'm not either.
TONY: How about their health?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm not in danger either.
TONY: How about their health? How about if
they have health conditions in there?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I honestly believe -- oh,
health conditions are fine. They're doing okay.
1
Q
'-
tThey're --
' TONY: All right.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- sitting around with
their mother indiscernible! --
TONY: Sanitary conditions?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'll take - the you
will see that the very tape you gave me, it'll be a
1i-- I'm going to do it right away in the morning.
You'll see the rosy cheeks --
[End of tape 172.]
I