Document text
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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
' TAPE #144
3/20/93
7=2a P.M. - 12 1s A.M.
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Tape 144!
JOHN: Good. Well, that's good.
DAVID: Okay. So anyway --
JOHN: I know we didn't want to bother you
today and we --
DAVID: Are you, are you -- you're not
you're not at the sheriff's department, are you?
JOHN: No, no.
DAVID:_ Oh, I see. Okay. So the -- a
right then. i
JOHN: That's why we had to patch you
through.
DAVID: Have you read that Micah 7, Jo
JOHN: I'm sure I read it a long time
with you.
DAVID: Not Micah 7.
JOHN: You don't think so?
DAVID: NO.
JOHN: How could I have missed?
Bell ringing.!
DAVID: See, see a lot of things is --
people, people don't realize that, you know, God
requires what's been in the past. Well, there's
statement in the world. You know, we have no fe
the future so we forget what, you know, has been
learned in the past.ll
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JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: But oh, boy, I tell you. It's - I
hope the best for these guys.
JOHN: They'll be all right.
_DAVID: Yeah, I know they will.
JOHN: And they'll be, you know, well cared
for. And the Sheriff's a man of.his word. He doesn't,
he doesn't go back on his words. And he's, he's been a
real class guy to deal with here and, and he's treating
everybody very fairly. Plus they'll have some -- I'm
sure they've already had some legal representation.
And you know -- '
DAVID: Maybe we should stock the sheriff's
department up with MREs.
JOHN: Oh, they've got plenty of good food.
Plenty --
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: -- plenty of good, fresh food.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: Don't you think so?
DAVID: Yeah. Laughing.!
JOHN: Some home cooking, huh? Yeah.
DAVID: Some homely cooking. Laughing.!
JOHN: Oh, no. Don't say, don't say that to
the man.
DAVID: Hey, you haven't eaten --
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JOHN: He's been pretty gracious to everybody
here."' 5
DAVID: I've, I've eaten down there before.
JOHN: Have you?
DAVID: Yeah. Laughing.!
JOHN: Don't tell me it wasn't much to write
home about. Because he was pretty gracious to all of
US.
DAVID:_ Well, he was, you know, they, they
did us real good when we was down there last time.
JOHN: Sure. Sure. We going to get
something working this evening?
DAVID: We're working on it.
JOHN: Good. Good.
DAVID: Like Isay it's - when, when you get
forced into the Scriptures a lot of the things are not
readily understood.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: People
naturally is accepted in
business is condemned by
JOHN: Umhum.
DAVID: So you
you start with somebody,don't realize that, that what
this generation as being just
God.
know, it's just like where do
John? Where do you start?
Where do you find a level point in the mind of one man
towards another to where you can start building up on
bl _
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the, the foundation? You know, you could say well,
look at Christ. But of course, not everybody is like
Christ. People can't do what he did, right?
JOHN: Sure. That's right.
DAVID: Then how come God let him do it, and
God let the apostles do it, and somehow somebody has
missed the boat and no one can do that no more? Wonder
what happened? Somebody went wrong somewhere, huh?
i JOHN: You bet. You bet.
DAVID: We got to find out where the kink in
the indiscernible! of the hose is, don't we?
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: Oh, wouldn't it be --
JOHN: -- got a few, a few kinks in the hose,
huh?
DAVID: Yeah, a few of them.
JOHN: That's for sure. Listen, we, we had a
request from the Sheriff earlier when, when I discussed
some things with the, the fellows that relieved me this
morning --
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JOHN: -- I told them that, that we expected
a female this evening.
DAVID: Right.
JOHN: And we got a request just a little
while ago, Jack, the Sheriff, contacted us and wanted
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to make sure that a female was coming, because they
were making arrangements for a female.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: And is it safe to go ahead and
reassure him that he can plan on that?
DAVID: Yeah, see -~
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: -- Rita, like I said, Rita is, Rita
is kind of petrified.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: And she's, she's just --
JOHN: Try to be reassuring to her, because I
sure tried last night to talk to her. And, and I'll be
happy to, to, you know, if you want me to talk to her
again this evening, I'll be happy to do that too.
But --
DAVID: Well, I mean she's, she's more
concerned about her spiritual interests than she is
about her --
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: -- her civil rights.
JOHN: Hey. Well, you, you know she's going
to be able to keep her Bible. You know she's going to
be able to keep up with everything from a spiritual
standpoint. And none of that's going to be taken away
from her. And it's not going to be hampered in any
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way. So we're certainly not going to do that.
DAVID: Okay. "
JOHN: We respect that. But they
aside so many facilities for females if, if
females coming out and, and we're certainly
handle her and anybody else at any time you
us know.
DAVID: Okay. Like I say it's --are setting
there are
prepared to
want to let
what we're
doing right now is we're just getting confirmations.
JOHN: Sure. Well, and be --
DAVID: You ever gone to the, you
to the priest before and made confession?
JOHN: Many times.EVET QOTIE
DAVID: Before, before you went on a job?
JOHN: Sometimes it was lengthier
others.
DAVID: Laughing.!
JOHN: And I sure have. Sure have
DAVID: I believe you.than
JOHN: You know, I really have. And --
DAVID: I don't, I don't take confessionals.
I just, I just --
JOHN: No, but --
DAVID: -- confirm to people --
JOHN: -- you listen and you, you're
supportive of people. And you listen to them, and1
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need.
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giving them some support. And that's what they
DAVID: These guys, old Kevin and Brad, were
messes in the beginning --
be
mJOHN: Laughing.! So you have to use a
stick?
DAVID: No, no. Like I say, people meet me
JOHN: They do.
DAVID: They meet
all things to all
out. And I start
Brad was in a bar, was down
JOHN: Uh-huh.me and they, you know, you
men. And they try to
talking to them. And like
at a club one night.
DAVID: -- Brad was there drinking a beer.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And I wasAnd he was -- and Brad's the kind of guy that spends
all his money on everybody else. And he's sitting
there and he, he says hey, want a beer, want a beer,
want a beer. You know, like one of these kind of guys,
talking to the owner about
the card, Cyrus Production card, and some of the
passages on it. And, and this guy says oh, wow. He
says you know, he says I used to go to church years
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ago. He says but I never learned anything like this.
And we was talking, and Brad overheard us and he, he
butted in and started telling us all about the
revelations and about all these different things. So I
sat there and listened to him for about, I don't
know --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- thirty minutes to an hour. I says
really, really, really. So anyway, he was just really
getting off, because somebody was listening to him, you
know? So then I started asking him questions and --
JOHN: Put him on the spot.
DAVID: Well, you know, and before you know
it we went off to Denny's and had dinner together, and
we started opening up to Scriptures, and we met a U.S.
marshal there that was sitting next to us.
I JOHN:_ Um-hum.
DAVID: And we started opening up Scriptures
to him and stuff. And then we just had a real good
time that night. And he's been, you know, ever since
he's just, he's just been real hungry to know these
things.
JOHN: That's great. Really is. And
because -- p '
DAVID: Because we are ~-
JOHN: -- a lot of people have that thirst
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for knowledge, and they don't know where to reach for
it, where to grasp for it. -
DAVID: They don't know where the real source
comes from. They don't know about God on the throne.
They don't know about the path that God's already laid
out for all men to see.
JOHN: No, and you got so many, so many
youngsters that, you know, their, their families are
supportive up to_a certain point. And then they,
they're "mature", right. And they, they're out on
their own, and they start swaying away from it. And a
lot of us have, have done that over the years. And
then we realize there's something there for, for us,
and we better get back in touch with our God.
DAVID: Maybe mom and dad were smarter than
we thought.
JOHN: Yeah. You bet. You bet.
DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. You know, theory,
when, when it comes to theory, theory doesn't work in
reality. And a lot of kids have a lot of theories
given to them about God. When it comes to a working
reality, that God is not really there when they need
it. And so they don't understand that truth has a
certain curriculum that has to be followed.
Like Brad, Brad has always been a, had a
problem with alcohol, you know.
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JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: 'And there's a lot of people out there
in the streets of LA and stuff that I've, that I've
dealt with and stuff that, you know, "have a love for
God. But of course, their God doesn't give them power
to overcome their vice.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: And, and they felt very separate and
lost, and they feel like they're going to hell. But
they don't understand according to the covenants that
in the latter days God allows vices to rule over his
people, because it keeps them humble. You know --
JOHN: Sure.
DAVID: -- you get a guy that, that seems to
be doing well in life and, and goes to church and, and
seems to do everything that he thinks is right. He
gets very proud and arrogant, you know. Very self-
righteous. You know, and it's like Christ explains in
the parable. He says there was a Pharisee in the
synagogue, and then there was a sinner. And the
Pharisee says I thank thee, 0 God, that I'm not another
man. I pay tithes of all of that I own. And I fast
twice a --
JOHN: There's a lot more to it than just
going to church though, isn't there?
DAVID: Well, exactly.
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JOHN: Sure. Sure.12
DAVID: Going to church, Christ talks about
your body being the temple of God. You are a walking
church if you have the knowledge of truth in you. It's
a 24-hour-a-day thing, 7-day-a-week thing.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
DAVID:
for --
JOHN: Well, these guys are --
DAVID: - instruction.
JOHN:And the church is supposed to be
You know, David -- David - Kevin and
Brad are -- I'm sure they've appreciated this, you
know. And, and they're learning a lot from it.
they've got a lot more to learn. You know. But
least they'll have the opportunity to do it. The
thing that we certainly don't have any intention
and, and I mean we on the outside which includesAnd
at
one
to do
the
sheriff's department and everyone else is to jeopardize
anybody's religious freedoms. You know, they're
cherished freedoms and, and they have to be respected.
And if, you know, you can reassure Rita and anyone else
that no one's going to interfere with those freedoms
and those rights and they can't.
DAVID: Well, they already have. But like I
say, it deals with a misunderstanding that --
JOHN: Well, they're not going to do it when,
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when they come out, that's for sure. In addition to
the, the legal representation, nobody's going to
interfere with their religious beliefs or their
convictions or their ability to, to continue their,
their study.
DAVID: Now whether we're bonded in the flesh
as long as we know where our minds are we can be free
in our spirits.
JOHN: _Sure. You're absolutely right.
DAVID: John the Revelator was bonded in the
flesh on the Isle of Patmos. He was considered a
treasonist sic!. He was considered a bad person. But
of course, in the spirit he was in heavenly places,
wasn't he?
JOHN: Yeah .
DAVID: Okay. All right, so let me finish up
working here and --
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: -- we'll get something going and --
JOHN: Would you --
DAVID: -- and we'll give you a call back
real quick, okay?
JOHN: Okay. would you let me talk to Steve
for a minute?
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: If he's around. Because I've got a
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message to give to him.
DAVID: Okay. Here. _Rachel, take the phone
to Steve. _
JOHN: Thanks.
[gap]
RACHEL: Hello?
JOHN: Hello, Rachel.
RACHEL: John Cox.
JOHN: You're right.
RACHEL: How are you?
JOHN: Fine. How about yourself?
RACHEL: Good.
JOHN: Good.
RACHEL: Here -- Steve, he just went to get a
bite to eat, that's all.
JOHN: He did?
RACHEL: Yeah.
JOHN: I bet he doesn't want a What A Burger,
huh? Not after what --
RACHEL: What A Burger --
JOHN: Not after what David told me last
night.
RACHEL: Really greasy, nasty. We've --
JOHN: David really put one on me last night
about What A Burger.
RACHEL: David said they were going to go to
i-_ ._ _. - ->__._i-_.._-_.-.>».___ _---i--» <- > - - ~-_ _A----i%Aie- 7-~
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hell. Laughing.!
JOHN:
sandwiches. Laughing.! Particularly the chicken
RACHEL: Oh, really?
JOHN: Yeah. He said those chickens are
laying around for 30 --
RACHEL: The devil -- sorry. He said the
devil wouldn't eat it. Laughing.!
JoHN=_ Laughing.! Could be.
RACHEL: Fuddruckers is a little better --
JOHN: Depends how hungry the devil gets.
RACHEL: Yeah. Well, you know, he's a health
reformer that, you know?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
RACHEL: Here's Steve.
JOHN:
[gap]
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
.JOHN:
talking to your
STEVE
JOHN:Thank you.
Hello, John?
Hey.
What's happening?
I had a message from John 2. '
Okay.
That I guess he spoke to you about
sister, Susan.
Okay.
And the attorney and the legal process
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and everything. And he left me a note to tell you from
her that when you come out she'll be there to, to see
you.
STEVE: Oh, really?
JOHN: And -- yeah.
STEVE: Well, she doesn't need to do that.
JOHN: Well, I think she's made her mind up
that she wants to see you and let you know that she
loves you.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Hey, it's the right thing. I spoke to
David last night, because I missed you last night.
You, you must have snuck out and decided that you
wanted to get some sleep last night, huh?
STEVE: Yeah, I think I did.
JOHN: Well, I got to spend a little time
with --
STEVE: You did, huh?
JOHN: -- with David last night. Yeah, and
he snookered me. Four hours and five minutes worth.
STEVE: Four hours and five minutes he said
he talked with you last night. Laughing.!
JOHN: His nose is --
STEVE: John, were you -- you were timing it,
huh?
JOHN: Hey, his nose is growing too.
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STEVE: He says your nose is growing too.
JOHN: Yeah. When I talked to him, I
mentioned to him that we had had some messages for
several people in there.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And after he gets done --
STEVE: Did you want to pass, did you want to
pass them on now maybe or --
JOHN: _Well, he - I know he's busy, you
know. He's doing something right now. He's --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- he's talking to some folks. And
one of the people that we had a message from was a
Sandra Hardial, H-A-R-D-I-A-L. And he --
STEVE: Want me to call her to the phone then
or --
JOHN: He said he didn't have any record of
her being --
STEVE: He didn't, he didn't never -- no,
none of us really ever knew her last name.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: But, but I do know of such a person
here. But I even myself --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- didn't know what her last name
was.
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JOHN: Okay. What I would like to do is once
he, once he talks --
STEVE: They, they call her Sandra. So that
might have thrown him off too.
JOHN: Okay. Once he talks to Rita, and he
talks to the other folks and --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- we resolve that issue, why don't we
make arrangements to talk to her and, and maybe some of
the other folks. _
STEVE: All right. So you -- _
JOHN: Okay?
STEVE: Not just yet then.
JOHN: No.
STEVE: So I'll give you a call -- after he's
talking do you want to call me, or I'll call you or
something?
JOHN: when he's done doing whatever --
STEVE : Okay.
JOHN: -- lecture with Rita and Rita -- you
know, he wants to --
STEVE: Indiscernible! lecture with Rita and
all that I -- l
JOHN: He said that he wanted to talk to her,
and kind of reaffirm the fact that yes, she'll be able
to take her Bible. She'll be able to continue her
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it.
religious
he --study
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
done doing that
this doneSTEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
[gap]
STEVEj
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and, and there were some others that
Okay.
-- wanted to talk to. So why don't --
So give you a call then?
Yeah.
Okay.
Give, give me a call when, when you're
Sounds good.
Okay?
Talk to you then.
Thank you.
Bye.
iii
Hello.
Steve?
Yes.
How we coming along?
Just a minute.
How, how we coming along?
DAVID: Tell him leave us alone until we get
JOHN: Whispering.! He's pissed.
DAVID: We're working on it.
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FSTEVE
JOIN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
just as soon as
u JOIN:
questions?
DAVID
STEVE
DAVID
JOIN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOI-N:
STEVE
JOHN:
JOIN:
STEVE
JOI-N:
STEVE:
JOIN:
STEVE
there if a Herbert Leon has called in from Britain atw !
Okay. We're working on it still.
Good. '
Yeah.
Good.
And I'm, and I'm going to call you
we're done.
Do you need, need me to answer any
_ Okay, now --
Not at the moment.
when it says indiscernible! --
Okay, fine.
Yeah.
Thanks.
I'll be giving you a call.
Thank you.
Okay, sure. Bye.
Bye-bye.
iii
Hello?
Hello, John?
Hey, how are you?
Not too bad.
Good.
Hey, do you have in your records
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all?
JOHN: I do not have that name right in front
of me. Do you know --
STEVE: It's his --
JOHN: Hang on. Hang on. Let me flip
through a couple of things. You got a second?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: Hold on. Just doesn't ring a bell.
We had the --
STEVE: He said he's an actor that's been in
like I think it's Alien 3 and a number of other movies.
JOHN: What we've had is many of the calls
coming for any of the Brits were from the British
Consul.
STEVE: Oh, they're -- most of them are from
the consul.
' JOHN: Many were and --
STEVE: AYeah.
JOHN: -- I've got the name of the vice
consul that called for, you know, to give the message
to Melissa. And I'd really have to look through some
other things but --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- in the list in front of me are the
names that I gave David last night. I did not have
that name at all, and it doesn't ring a bell.
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STEVE: Okay, let --
JOHN: And I've been, I've been looking
through everything I can find --
STEVE
real quick.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
[sap]-- let me check on the last name then
Okay. 92
Just a minute.
Okay.
Radio playing in background.!
STEVE: Yeah, I've got it right here.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: His mother is here, and her name is
Victoria Hollingsworth. What? Victorian.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:It's a male?
No, it's his mother.
Okay. Hollingsworth.
Yeah.
And it would have been Leon is the
fellow's last name?
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE"
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:That's her son, yes. Last name Leon.
Okay. And his first name was what?
The first name was Herbert.
Uhuho I
Nothing there?
Nothing that I have. And I've got a
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list of -- I can tell you right now --
STEVE: Let me find the -- okay.
JOHN: -- the British Consul Generals Office
inquired initially, okay, about a lot of people --
STEVE: Okay .
JOHN: - who they believed were in there --
STEVE: John, can we, can we give you a
number where he could be called?
JOHN: They, they just want us to -- she'd
just like to have us call and give some assurances?
STEVE: Well, and probably --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: -- make some kind of a connection for
her. Or I'm not sure what. You know, she's, she's an
older person that was here and, and --
JOHN : Uh - huh .
STEVE: -- has been during this whole time
right from the time it started has been sick in bed.
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: In fact, through all of this she's
lost weight. Hey, I don't even know if he's going to
recognize her after the last few weeks. She's man,
lost a lot of weight.
JOHN: Why don't we try and do something for
her, huh?
STEVE: That's true.
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JOHN: You know?
STEVE: She's been too sick to even want to
worry about it for a while. But now I, I think she's
doing a little better so, you know, now we can at least
make -- hope that she can maybe make it out okay.
JOHN: Well, you can have a couple of people
help her out.
STEVE: That's true.
JOHN: I don't mean that they have to do
anything themselves but can walk --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- walk her out there and ~-
STEVE: Well, that's true.
JOHN: Hey, we'd be happy to, to meet her.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Do you have a number in a town or
something like that? And I can try --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- and research. Because --
STEVE: Sure.
JOHN: -- I'm looking at a list that I had
from the British Consul General's Office, and her name
is not on it.
STEVE: All right. Vicky, do you have a
number or would you have, would you have to get it, or
do you know it? Okay. Here it is.
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JOHN: Go ahead.
STEVE: Vicky's voice in background not
discernible.! It's what? O71 --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- 263 --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: -- 6973.
JOHN: Okay. And where is that?
STEVE:_ That would be London I would imagine.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: I think that to call out of here I
think it's like Oll and then --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: 11 -- yeah. O11 and then it's 44 and
then the number you have. J
JOHN: 01144.
STEVE: Yeah. And then the number you have
there. '
JOHN: Okay.. Well, we can sure, sure try and
get a hold of him --
STEVE : Okay .
JOHN: - and let him know that, you know --
STEVE: Let me ask how they want to connect
on that or, or just what might, what they might want to
do here. Just a minute.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
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[sap]
Unidentified voices in background not
discernible.!
JOHN: We threw that bone once. Tell him
that we can maybe try and make the call, and give her a
message.
STEVE: Okay. I guess it would be good if
her, you know, if you could let her know, I mean let
him know about being here for her. And we're still
working with Rita coming out right now.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: But it seems like she's getting ready
to come out herself --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- Vicky is, so.
JOHN: Well, do you think Vicky could come
out with Rita maybe?
STEVE: 'That, that sounds good. That
probably would be a big help.
JOHN: I'll, I'll tell you what we could do.
STEVE: Okay .
JOHN: Is if you want her to do that, we
would, we would try and hook her right up with him on
the phone.
STEVE: Okay, just a minute.
JOHN: If you want us to try and do that.
9- 9.
" 27
[sap]
STEVE: I guess if, if indiscernible! Vicky
up with Rita and he could just hook her up with him on
the phone indiscernible!. Unidentified voices in
background not discernible.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Let's get her
out. Let's get her out.
STEVE: Could you have what? Oh. She's
saying, she -- Vicky I mean. She's right here. And
she's asking me, she says could I have a couple of
days? Because I'm still feeling sick, and I don't know
if I can be getting up yet.
JOHN: Well, the best thing to do is
probably --
STEVE: And, and David's saying that she
needs to go as soon as possible because of that --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- because she's been down and out
for quite a while now.
JOHN: Why, why don't you and David try and
encourage her to --
STEVE: Yeah, he is. He, he --
JOHN: -- come out. And we've got --
STEVE: He has been.
JOHN: -- we've got the medical assistance
right down at the end of that road. And --
Q
929. 0 . _.
28
STEVE: Vicky, he says --
JOHN: -- when we -
STEVE: -- they got the medical, you know,
everything that you might need.
JOHN: We've had the doctors talk to people
and, on the phone before, and we've had doctors tend to
people coming out.
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: She can come out with Rita. We can
get her to some medical attention and get her on the
phone with her son and he can be -- she can be
reassuring to her son when she comes out.
STEVE: Yeah. Just a minute. Yeah.
JOHN: And, and the other thing that could be
done is Rita probably could make a phone call back in
and let you know that she's made contact with her son
and everything's fine.
STEVE: Okay. Just a minute. David's voice
in background not discernible.! Oh, she was even --
well, I don't know.
JOHN: What?
STEVE: You mean what cars do we have left?
I don't know. Most of them are bullet shot up and --
JOHN: What?
STEVE: -- you know, like Rita had a real
nice car. It was one of those Preludes, a Honda
Q;h 29
Prelude. But --
JOHN: Uh-huh. '
STEVE: -- just Friday the tank came in and
shoved her car all over the place along with the bus
and a number, a couple, three, four cars here.
JOHN: Well, you know, we have one of those
Bradleys that is --
STEVE: Ooh, man. I don't know if she could
handle that. .
JOHN: No. No, no. I don't --
STEVE : Okay .
JOHN: Hey. I'm not talking about somebody
driving a Bradley. We have --
STEVE: No, I know. Not, not
indiscernible! --
JOHN: -- a Bradley that is an ambulance,
okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: It's designed as an ambulance. And we
can have that Bradley right up the road and -- hold on
just a second.
STEVE: All right.
JOHN: Hold on.
[sap]
STEVE: He's checking on it now.
DAVID: We still got keys to the Blazer
Q
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30
still, don't we?
STEVE: I guess. He's talking about bringing
a Bradley right up here. The ambulance Bradley. -
DAVID: Right up to the, to the front?
STEVE: Pretty close anyway. Whatever we
want.
DAVID: They, they can probably do that.
STEVE: All right. He's talking about
tonight, you know. He's talking about now, this
minute. Okay.
VICKY: Indiscernible.!
DAVID: You need to go, Vicky. I mean let's
start exercising some faith in what I'm doing.
VICKY: Indiscernib1e.!
JOHN: Steve. Steven.
STEVE: Yes.
JOHN: Okay. Going through a couple of
options here. And, and I want your help on it. Okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: Your help and David's help. We can
get a Bradley up pretty close if, if that would be of
assistance.
STEVE: Okay, I, I --
JOHN: I mean -- and I don't mean in any
threatening manner or anything.
STEVE: No, no, no. I think that would be
okay --
JOHN:31
Because we have one that is designed
like an ambulance would --
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:Okay.
-- have a doctor in it. Okay?
Okay.
And maybe Rita could help her out or
anybody else could help her out into the Bradley, and
then the two of them could leave that way. And she
could -- Rita could be a little more reassuring to her,
huh?
STEVE: Well, yeah. He's, he's mentioning
how Rita could be a little more reassuring to her
and --
DAVID
STEVE
Rita's a basket
JOHN:
then --
STEVE
could --
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
DAVIDRita is a basket job.
And right now David's saying to me
job right now.
Well, do you have somebody else
Do, do we have someone else that
-- that could help the two of them?
-- two of them that could help her?
You know?
Possibly he says.
Tell him I'll call indiscernible! --
0
92
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-> _
-O: O;
JOHN: You know, I know --
STEVE: Can he, can he call you back
Because we haven't really, you know --
JOHN: You can, sure. But I, I know
you're concerned about, you know, he mentioned
you know --
STEVE : Ye ah .
JOHN: -- look at the others and see
they -- _
STEVE: Right.32
in 15?
if, if
others,
if maybe
JOHN: -- could help the two of the ladies
out of there if Rita's really having some problems.
And we can have Victoria hooked up or at least try. I
mean dial a number and see if her son is there and, and
put her on the phone with him. If it's necessary for
Rita to drive her car out --
STEVE: Excuse me. Yeah, but you know Vicky
is doing very physically, mentally very poorly
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE: So you, she said --
JOHN: Well, we want to get her to a hospital
then. And if, and if it's essential that Rita drive a
car out, we can do it. You know, we'd rather not.
STEVE: Yeah. '
JOHN: But if it's a necessary thing, we can
do it.
I
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92
92
STEVE
15 minutes.
JOHN:
STEVE
John.
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
called on time.
know she is --
she is -- he's
that --
JOHN:u 3
: Okay. Yeah, well let me call you in
Fine.
: Okay. I'll call you right then,
Okay, 15 on the money.
: Right.
All right.
: Okay. Bye.
¢ * ¢
Hello?
: JOhn? A
Yeah.
: Yeah. I just wanted to make sure I
He's still working with them. You
the older lady she is, she's sick. And
trying to convince her and talk to her
Okay.
STEVE: -- that now she'll get to hell and
that --
JOHN: SL118 .
STEVE: -- you know, she just -- she's
pleading and as
maybe at least
JOHN:king if she can't lay down yet until
daylight and --
Well --I
92
92
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n 34
STEVE: And --
JOHN: Let me tell you what we can work out.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: We can, we can bring one of those
Bradleys right on up to the bend of the road.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: I guess there are some lights out
there.
STEVE:y Right.
JOHN: We can bring it right up there, one of
them that's designed as an ambulance and --
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: -- you can have Rita and whomever else
you want to have --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- bring her right on out. And
whoever comes out just will plan on leaving.
STEVE: A11 right.
JOHN: Okay? And there will be medical
assistance in the Bradley.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: All right? And then we will go
through the same procedure we've gone with everyone
else. And we will certainly make arrangements for her
to speak to Herbert, her son.
STEVE: All right. Okay, let --
0
_
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9219. 9 2
35
JOHN: And you can be, you know --
STEVE: Right. '
JOHN: -- be as reassuring to her as you can
and --
STEVE: Right. I have been.
JOHN: -- and let David do it. And if it
takes two people to help her --
STEVE: Um-hum.
JOHN: _-- if it takes four people to help
her, whatever it takes, you know, you be the judge of
that. And, and David be the judge and hey. We don't,
we don't want anything to happen to the woman. We know
you don't either.
STEVE: Okay --
JOHN: You know, so we're all looking out for
her welfare --
STEVE: Right.
JOHN: -- and her well-being and --
STEVE: Okay. Let me go back in and try to
help her and encourage her a little bit, and see if we
can't get her going --
JOHN: Just use your best judgment --
STEVE: We're doing --
JOHN: -- you know. You've been working
hard. You've been working hard in the past --
STEVE: Oh, yeah, believe me.
0
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BOISE .
good things just
as I'm --JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE9:»
36
-- and --
Voice is again is getting kind of
Let's just continue to build on the
like we're doing now.
We're doing it. We're doing it.
Okay.
Okay. I'll call you right back.
_About how long?
I, I don't know. You know, as long
Well --
-- still going to talk to her. And
I'm hoping to get her going here real quick.
mean --
now and --
all that.JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:Ten, fifteen minutes or --
Well, I hope. But you know, I
Okay.
-- he's even trying to talk to her
That's all right. That's all right.
-- tears are coming from her eyes and
Hey, hey. Do what you have to do.
Okay.
Okay?
Q-
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x£1.
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
we're just about
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:9 >
37
I'll call you, I'll call you back.
Thank you, Steve.
Sure. Bye.
Bye.
iii
Hello?
Hey, Steve.
Yeah.
How's it going?
Okay, we're getting it pretty now --
done.
Great.
we kind of worked out now and --
God bless you.
Good.
You're doing good.
He says, yeah, can you get the
Bradley ready then? The ambulance one?
JOHN:
you know, 2 or 3
STEVE:
JOHN:Yeah. All you have to do is tell us,
minutes or something like that and --
Okay.
-- and then we'll call you back and go
through the numbers with you.
STEVE: Yeah, well, he's just about done.
And I've been talking to them. And we're just trying
to get the last few minutes --
t
92
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92
'-
92.', *. .ri
92..
JOIN:_ 38
Hey, just be strong with them, huh?
STEVE: Oh, yeah. I have been. You know,
it's, it's not been easy. Because --
JOIN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
before this all
JOIN:
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:Oh, I know. I know.
Physically sick and all that and --
I know. -
Like she's never gotten up since even
happened.
_Hey. She relies on David. She --
Yeah.
-- relies on you and --
Oh, yeah.
-- everybody else in there. And
that's who she's been relying on for years probably.
STEVE: Yeah. So we're trying to talk her,
you know --
JOHN:
STEVE
just, just hang
JOIN:
STEVE -
JOHN:
going to be --
STEVE
Because --
JOHN:Good.
-- it will be okay. And you know,
in there so --
Good.
I'll give you a call right back.
You got any idea if, if it's just
I think it's just moments, you know.
The two of them, or is someone else
0
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4-
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going to help them out?
STEVE: I don't know. Because I'm starting
to talk to a few more.
JOHN: Okay. Just --
STEVE: SO --
JOHN: -- do what you have to do.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And you call me back. A
STEVE: Okay. I'll do that.
JOHN: Thank you.
STEVE: Sure. Bye.
1' i Q
STEVE: Hello, John?
JOHN: Yes, sir.
STEVE: Yeah. Well, tell you what we're
working on right now. We're talking to the two nurses
JOHN: Uh-huh.
STEVE: And Vicky, she's, she's in the
process, she's going for sure. And we're trying to
talk one of the two nurses to go along.
JOHN: Okay. Great.
STEVE: And they're, you know, it's kind of
one of these things well, which one should go. And
they're kind of looking at each other and we're just
about got convinced at least one of them to go, you
know --39
' 1.
92' 40
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- with her and everything so -- and
it's kind of a surprise to them. You know, it's late
at night. And they're, they, they don't --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- like the idea of going in the
dark. And I'm trying -- we're trying to say well,
they'll, they'll be gentle with you and --
JOHN: AYou bet your life.
STEVE: You know, they, they always want to
wait until the morning when the sun's up and all that.
And we're saying well, you know, Vicky she needs --
JOHN: Well, would it do any good if I talked
to them do you think or no? I mean you got to make the
best judge --
STEVE: I think I can, I think I can convince
them, you know. Because I've told them I've talked
to -- I said the nice -- I really like these guys John
Dolan and John Cox. I've spent a lot of time with them
as David has. John Cox, he's listened to a lot of
studies.
JOHN: Laughing.! ,
STEVE: You got to at least give him --
JOHN: I don't have to go to church for 6
months, Steve.
STEVE: Laughing.! John, you're all right.
5 . 41
JOHN: You know?
STEVE: Oh, boy. I tell you. Yeah, one of
them are coming. I'll call you right back to let you
know which. In fact, he's even right now saying come
on, ladies, you know. Vicky needs --
JOHN: The other, the other two are pretty,
pretty well ready?
STEVE: I guess he -- what's her name --
JOHN: Vicky and Rita?
STEVE: Rita. She wants to hold on a little
bit. She's weak in the knees. She said she just wants
to ask him a few more questions. She's --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- she's -- in her mind she wants to
go, of course.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: You know, she says let me, let me
wait until a time of day at least, and I can get my
head straight here and --
JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- and so we said well, Vicky, now
she wants to go. And now we're trying to tell one of
the nurses come on, let's -- you know, help out here.
Help out here.
JOHN: Because --
STEVE: So you know, Dave --
. ' iIi
42
JOHN: Hey, if it takes --
STEVE: -- he's, he's telling them himself,
John. He says hey, I'm going out there myself. He
says but I'm trying to get you people together and,
and --
JOHN: Sure.
STEVE: -- get yourself moving here now.
JOHN: Sure. *
STEVE:. So that's kind of where he's at. So
you know, you know, you know how it goes. They're weak
in the knees, and they're a little afraid and
apprehensive and all that and --
JOHN: Well, basically what we need is 15
minutes to tell the people --
STEVE: You do. Okay.
JOHN: -- to bring that ambulance up there.
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And --
STEVE: So let, let me go and talk --
JOHN: -- do you want me to have them move it
up there now?
STEVE: You know, you actually could. But
then in the process they might need to go to their
rooms and kind of -- because they haven't even thrown
their things together. This is the first they know of
it. You know, he's been telling everybody, you know,
9 9 >
43
get ready to go. Because we're going to be asking you.
You got to get yourselves together, you know. Ever
since this happened, you know, a lot of --
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: -- these women, the older ones, you
know, they, all they heard was -- they never saw
anything, anybody. They just heard bullets and --
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
STEVE:_ You know, it's just been a scary
experience for them and so --
JOHN: Who, who will the nurse be, do you
know?
STEVE: It's going to either be Zilla
phonetic sp.! Henry or Netta. And I don't know what
her last name is. I only know her by the first name.
JOHN: Okay. Okay.
STEVE: So even --
JOHN: Well, if it's Zilla --
STEVE: Yeah. She's already got an attorney
and her husband indiscernible! --
JOHN: Do you want to have her children come
out with her?
STEVE: They don't even know yet. I think a
lot of them --
JOHN: And we can handle it. If you want to
have her children come out, if that would give her some
O O ,
:92.
44
more support, that's fine.
STEVE: Okay, I'll go mention it to, to her
then.
JOHN: You know. It, it may be easier to, to
have the children be supportive of her.
STEVE
second, John.
JOHN:
STEVE
that's happened
JOHN:
[gap]
STEVE
JOHN :
STEVEDavid's calling me. Just hang on one
Okay.
Maybe there's something else here
Okay, go ahead. I'll hold on.
John?
Yes, sir. A
I'm going to give you to David here.
Just hang on. Because you know, we're talking with
some of them right now and --
JOHN:
STEVE
phone here, got
is.
JOHN:
l9aP1
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID :Go ahead. Go ahead.
Okay, hang on. Trying to get the
a long cord and -- okay. Okay, here he
All right.
Say, John?
Hey, David.
Could you all, could you all send
r
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k.Q. O,
I92 ' 45
another bug in here, please?
JOHN: Laughing.!
DAVID: I wish you could hear some of this.
JOHN: I wish I could too, huh?
DAVID: The things -- no, seriously.
JOHN: What, what kind do you want?
DAVID: I need one of those ones that you had
before.
JOHN: Just any old one?
DAVID: Hey, wait a minute. We could put one
of those things back together, huh, Steve?
Unidentified voices in background not discernible.!
Okay. Just you know, you think you guys are
negotiators. I mean, you know --
JOH: Hey.
DAVID: -- you know, people are really --
JOHN: You've got the Lord on your side.
Remember that.
DAVID: Yeah, I know. But remember, remember
the disciples 2,000 years ago?
JOHN: Lord.
DAVID: Remember that?
JOHN: Yes.
DAVID: I mean they were really confirmed,
they were really strong with Christ around, weren't
they? "
** 46
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
John.
JOHN:
DAVID:
they're, they'reWell --
But when --
-- be strong. Be strong.
I know. Well, here's the thing now,
Yeah.
They're being strong, but like I say,
being shown the prophetic word again.
That's all they've got now. Remember that.
JOHN:
the unknown too,
DAVID:Well, I know they've got the fear of
don't they?
Well, you see the -- what's known is
clear in front of their eyes according to the flesh.
JOHN:
coming out and --
DAVID:
thing. The fear
JOHN:
DAVID:Well, I mean the fear of unknown, of
But no, no, no. That's not the
of the --
You don't think so?
No. The fear of the unknown is
whether God's going to do what he says or not.
JOHN:
say.
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:Well, you know we're doing what we
Yeah, I know. I know.
And we're not, we're not --
But I understand.
-- playing games that way or anythingI
s
r
92
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¢
92
- 1 else, you know.0 0 ,
47
2 DAVID: Understand. Like I say, the
3 confirmation of the word of God is the final hope of
4 mankind anyway.
5. the Bradley.
6 JOHN:Okay, so, so anyway, go ahead and send
Okay.
7 DAVID: And --
6 JOHN:
9 I'll passI mentioned, I mentioned to Steve, and
it by you for your thoughts on it. He said
10 that one of the nurses will probably accompany Vicky
11 and Rita out. And the --
12 I DAVID
13 JOHN:
14 DAVID
15 morning.
16 JOHN:
17 V DAVID
18 JOHN:
19 she just --
20 DAVID
21 JOHN:
22 DAVID
23 meet hen.
24 JOHN:
25 times.
DAVID:Well, Rita's --
Excuse me.
-- Rita's going to stay until the
Okay. All right.
Okay?
But he said one of the, one of the --
Rita's always given me problems.
She's just a little hesitant, huh?
Laughing.! Yeah. Wait until you
Well, I've talked to her a couple of
Yeah.
y ' §
i .92
48
JOHN: And --
DAVID: She's from North Carolina. You know
how those girls are out there, right?
JOHN: She's got tar between her --
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: -- toes, huh? Tarheel.
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: But he mentioned that, that Zilla may
be one of the nurses coming out and if --
DAVID: Oh. It's --
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: -- what's, what's your complete name?
What's the complete one? Anetta Richards.
JOHN: Annette --
DAVID: Annetta --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- Richards.
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: What's your son's name? And write
this down. Vivian --
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: -- Wilson. Vivian Wilson. Huh?
Yeah, it's a nephew. He's like your son though.
JOHN: Her, her nephew is Vivian --
DAVID: Vivian Williams. Wilson. Wilson.
JOHN: Okay.
>_
I
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DAVID: Wilson. And if you would, if you
would, if you could contact him, he's in, he's in
Canada.
JOHN: We may try to make some arrangements
for her to contact him too --
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: - when she comes out.
DAVID: Okay. Well --
JOHN: -We're, we're certainly not opposed to
doing something like that.
DAVID: Well, that's what I told her and
everything. And she definitely would like to talk to
him.
JOHN: Okay. So she will be accompanying
Vicky out then?
DAVID: Right .
JOHN: Okay. Don't, don't --
DAVID: We're, and we're --
JOHN: '-- have her come out until I call back
in though. Because I'm going to call them and tell
them to send the, the Bradley that's configured like an
ambulance forward.
DAVID = Right .
JOHN: Okay.
DAVID: Now remember, and Vicky like I say
she, she needs her -- well, you know, she needs, she
1 Q O
so
needs some, she needs some care and stuff.
JOHN: Well, she's going to have a doctor
look at her right away.
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: When she comes out. Do you know
specifically what problems she has?
like --DAVID: Well, she's on --
JOHN: I mean is she a diabetic or anything
DAVID: She's on heart medication.
JOHN: And she knows what type of medication.
DAVID: Yeah. As a matter of fact, she'll
bring it out with her.
JOHN: Fine.
DAVID: You know, just, they -- I'm sure they
worked it out last night with the guys. Because you
know, it disturbed a lot of people here last night with
the guys, you know, hollering and screaming.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: It sounded like, you know, another
raid out there. But --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: If they, if they want to, they can
shine lights on these ladies and everything, you know,
and --
JOHN: I'm sure they will.
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51
DAVID: And - -
JOHN: And the place is probably pretty well
lit up anyhow, huh?
DAVID: Right.
, JOHN: Will they be carrying anything?
DAVID: Just their Bibles --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- and what else, what else you all
going to be carrying?
_[9aP1
DAVID: Well, well now, well see, when they
come, when they come back here, they'll, they'll sort
everything out and stuff like that. So don't worry
about that kind of stuff, okay? You don't need, you
don't need to take your suitcases or nothing. Just
take your immediate clothes and everything that you
got, you know, what you're wearing. And then we'll
work that all out later, okay?
She wanted to know if she should take all her
suitcases and all that and --
JOHN: Yeah. No.
DAVID: How old are you, Vicky? She's 59 so.
JOHN: Okay. And do you know how old Anetta
is?
DAVID: How old are you, Anetta? She's 63.
JOHN: Sixty-three. Okay. I will call you
92K A 52
when the vehicle is in place up there, okay? Because
we're telling them to go ahead -- I
DAVID: Now, now --
JOHN: -- and move it up. Oh, are they going
to be carrying anything besides their Bibles?
DAVID: You going to have anything besides
your Bibles? Maybe a sack or something with maybe a
extra change -- what do you -- what do they need? They
need a change of clothes or what?
JOHN: No. No, they don't.
DAVID: All right.
JOHN: As a matter of fact --
DAVID: Underwear?
JOHN: No. It's all provided for them.
DAVID: All right. Okay. Maybe your Bibles
and what you're wearing.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: okie doke .
JOHN: Okay. I'll call you back --
DAVID: Remember, the Bradley needs to come
right up near the front.
H JOHN: Is it going to come -- I can tell you
where it's going to come.
DAVID: All right.
JOHN: It's going to come up to the bend in
the road where the light is outside where the - right
I
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near where the bus was, okay?
DAVID: Okay.
JOHN: All right? And I'll call you when
it's in place.
DAVID: All right .
i JOHN: I appreciate what you're doing.
DAVID: Okay. We're still working -- we're
getting this, we're getting this resolved now.
JOHN: -Okay, and --
DAVID: Appreciate you --
JOHN: And it -- if you're going to - if you
want to try to talk to some others this evening --
DAVID: we, we are.
JOHN: That's fine. Let me call you back in,
in about 15 minutes.
DAVID: My, my -- you understand my room is
real small. And if there's ever been time for personal
confrontation it's now --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: -- with these people. You got to
understand that.
JOHN: I appreciate it.
DAVID: And you know --
JOHN: Hey, I know what you're going through.
And it's very difficult for these people also I know.
DAVID: All right.
O, O
JOHN:
DAVID'
bit.
JOHN:
DAVID
STEVE
JOHN:
STEVE
It's --
JOHN:
STEVE
JOHN:
for them. I guess it's got a couple
STEVE: Okay. So they can
the vehicle.
JOHN:
STEVE: Okay. It's there.54
Okay?
Okay. Well, talk to you a little
Thank you.
Okay, bye.
iii
John?
Hey, Steve.
Yeah, they're getting ready now.
Okay. The vehicle is up there.
It is. Okay --
And it's stationary right now waiting
of lights on.
just go right to
Yeah. She'll be --
Ones putting
on -- changing her dress. And they're, they're ready.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Yeah, they'll just be --
JOHN:
all right?The nurse will be able to handle her
STEVE: Vicky, Vicky walks slow. She's
got -- she's had -- she either broke or I think she
broke an ankle, and she's had it repinned and all that
'~
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55
So she'll be --
JOHN: Okay. '
STEVE: -- walking very slow. And the nurse
will --
JOHN: But the nurse will be able to --
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: -- handle her all right?
STEVE: Right. Yeah, I think she can.
JOHN: .Well, we're --
STEVE: I hope you know that --
JOHN: -- we're patient.
STEVE : Okay .
JOHN: So --
STEVE: It helps. It really helps.
JOHN: Just take them -- tell they can go out
anytime they want. The vehicle is out there waiting
for them.
srsvs = okay .
JOHN: And, and once they're safely in and,
and back at our forward area there I'll give you a call
and let you know that everything's all right.
STEVE: Super. That would be great, John.
JOHN: You know.
STEVE: That would be great.
JOHN: And if -- hey, if there are others
that you think --
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56
STEVE: Yeah, I --
JOHN: -- may be interested this evening --
STEVE: I, I keep talking.
JOHN: We can handle it.
STEVE: David's talking, and we just keep
right on talking and --
JOHN: Do that. Because they don't have to
wait until the sun comes up.
STEVE:» Yeah.
JOHN: We're trying to build --
STEVE: You know -- yeah.
JOHN: -- a lot of credibility here and --
STEVE: Right . Right.
JOHN: I know how hard you and, and David are
working at this thing and just --
STEVE: Oh, believe me --
JOHN: -- keep up the good work.
STEVE: "I'm dry from all the talking. He's
like I am.
JOHN: You know. Unidentified male voice in
background not discernible.! We -- what me may be able
to work out is -- what we're going to do with Victoria
I'll tell you right now is we're going to take her to a
hospital.
STEVE : Okay .
JOHN: Uh-huh. That's probably the best
k 92one o~
57
thing, don't you think so?
STEVE: I don't know. Let me -- David knows
more about it. He says that what they'll do is
indiscernible!
how bad is she?
JOHN:
DAVID
signs --
STEVE
DAVID
STEVE
DAVID
JOHN:
good check-up.and take her right to a hospital, or
So they might do that.
What?
Well, tell them check her vital
a I guess check her vital signs.
She wasn't eating any food.
She, she wasn't eating any food so --
She wanted to die in here --
Were, we're going to get her a good,
STEVE: Should I, should I say that? okay.
David said, David said she wanted to die here and not
out there. And
JQHN:
STEVE
Vicky, you know
JOHN:
check-up.
STEVE
is, you know.
JOHN:David --
Well --
-- you know, just tell her hey,
We're going to get her a good physical
He says that's not what our purpose
That's right. That's right.
STEVE: So he had to tell her that.
' /
_ ss
JOHN: Whenever they're ready to come out,
let them come out. i
STEVE: Okay.
JOHN: And, and the vehicle is sitting over
there --
STEVE: It will be pretty quick here.
Because_you know, they left. They're already like in
their, in their rooms getting ready right now. So I
don't think it will be just too long here.
I'll
they
they
backJOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Yeah. So yeah, I'll, I'll make sure
be down there with them and --
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: -- to the door and then make sure
get out the door okay and everything.
JOHN: Okay. Give me, give me a jingle when
go out the door, will you?
STEVE: Okay, I'll do that. I'll come right
on the phone then.
? JOHN: Thank you.
STEVE: Okay, I'll talk to you in a minute.
JOHN: All right.
STEVE: Okay, bye.
iii
JOHN: Hello?
STEVE: John.
O. O>
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STEVE:A.
59
Yeah.
Man, that was quick. I didn't even
hear the phone ring.
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
background.!
STEVE:It rang here. It rang here.
Laughing.! Hey --
They're on their way?
Guess what? Guess what, John?
What?
They've decided not to come.
Don't tell me that.
Only kidding.
I hope you are. Laughter in
That's what David said. He was kind
of laughing. But you know what it really is like?
David said it's like getting Granny ready for a
baseball game or
JOHN:
STEVE:
JOHN:
about leaving.
STEVE:
slow too. She's
JOHN:
STEVE:
they're actuallysomething. well --
She's --
-- indiscernible! they mean?
Hey. She's probably scared to death
Yeah, well, you know. She's, she's
got the bad ankle and all that.
Yeah.
But she -- they're ready. They're,
right now down by the counter. They
O
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_ so
wanted a drink and they're, they're right out --
they're going to be out the door in just minutes.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: So --
JOHN: Hey. Think we can work on some more
this evening?
STEVE: Wow. I tell you what. I was -- you
wouldn't believe what that's like. I'm --
JOHN: -Yeah, I would.
STEVE: Oh, my word. It's --
JOHN: We've all been, we've all been working
on it for --
STEVE: Pulling teeth off of a chicken.
JOHN: Quite a, quite a ways.
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: And I know David probably had to do an
awful lot of work too.
STEVE: vOh, yeah. You know --
JOHN: And I know --
STEVE: - when, when she's older like that,
and tears come to the eyes and you kind of --
JOHN: Oh, sure. Sure.
STEVE: -- point them to, you know --
JOHN: Does she have any relatives in there
or no? Just the son that she wanted called?
STEVE: Exactly.
> _. . . - _ ... ._ __._...-._..__-___._-..,_-_. .__._ . .. _
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61
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: And he's way over in London.
JOHN: Well, we already talked to Jack, the
Sheriff?
STEVE: Yeah.
JOHN: And she's going to be able to contact
him.
STEVE: Okay. And Anetta Richards, she's
coming right out too.
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: And you know, I want to get a good
night's_rest. Come the morning, you know, it's back to
work.
JOHN: Yeah.
STEVE: Come the morning, it's back to work
so --
JOHN: Nell, do, do you see any that --
STEVE: David, he's going to be working right
through the night himself.
JOHN: GOOd.
STEVE: So I, I need to get some rest. I've
been missing out --
92JOHN: Well --
STEVE: -- on a lot of sleep. Just a minute.
JOHN: What --
STEVE: Okay.
& --0 ~--~- -.._ - ~_.__~._- . . -2.- _ .l.. _
Q 5,
62
' 1 . JOHN: What I want to do is call back and
2 whether it's to you or to David --Q
3 STEVE: Okay.
4 JOHN: -- after -- of course I'd like to know
Si when they go out the door.
6 STEVE: Right. Well they're -- right now,
7* and in fact Anetta is right here just saying she's all
8 dressed, ready to go.
9 JOHN: Okay.
10 STEVE: She's saying goodbye. And so --
11 A JOHN: Okay.
12 _ STEVE: -- she's heading right on out the
13 door.
/ 14 JOHN: Give her a hug and, and --
92
15 STEVE: Okay.
16 JOHN: -- put the phone down, and let me know
17 when she goes out the door.
18 STEVE: All right. I'll do that.
19 JOHN: Okay?
20 STEVE: Okay, hang on.
21 [gap]
22 Steve's voice in background not
23 discernible.!
24 DAVID: Indiscernible! God on the throne.
25 Always God on the throne. Not me. Forget about me.
I'm a Dixie cup. My work's over. I'm a Dixie cup.
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1 You know, 2,000 years ago, Christ his word -- it's
2 over. You got to keep your mind on the throne. On
3 one, the last judgment. Times two, times three.
4 Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial indiscernible!. We got a
592 witness on our side. These people don't know nothing.
6 And we got to stop -- get off the titty. Apply the
7 doctrine. Because we're the only people in the world
8 that know these things. You know that, don't you? No
9~ one else knows anything. Let God work. Remember, when
10 you're in hands of the world, you're in the hands of
11. God.
12 STEVE: Okay, I'm watch -- I'm going to watch
13 her go down the stairs. Then I'll put the phone down
14 hand, and walk with them there.
15 JOHN: Go ahead.
16 STEVE: Okay. Yeah, I'm going down with them
17 right now. So they'll be out the door within --
18 _ JOHN: I'll just stay on --
.
19 STEVE: -- one to two minutes.
20 JOHN: -- I'll stay on the line until you get
21 back.
22 I STEVE: Okay.
23 JOHN: Okay.
24 STEVE: John, here's, here's David.
2s JOHN: Okay.
STEVE: Hang on. I'll be right back.
-._._._ _ .._...-__..@.....__.__.e 7 A 7- V 1 .____ i .._-. __~__-._ . .. ._. ._._..,_._
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92¢DAVID: Hello, John.
JOHN: Hello. You had a long night, huh?
DAVID: Sighing.!
JOHN: Hey.
DAVID: You'll see it all one day on the,
the screen. On the big screen.
JOHN: On the big screen?
DAVID: Yeah.
JOHN: I've been seeing a lot of it. You
can't imagine some of the flashes I --
End of tape 144.!
u.s. DEPARTMENT or 'r1~n-: TREASURY
BUREAU 01-" ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #145
3/21/93
12:15 A.M. ~ 1:02 A.M.
v
Tape 145!
JOHN: -- through with, with these people
because >-
DAVID: Well, it's like this. It's like you
can, you know, like you can bring Israel out of Egypt,
right? Right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: But you can't get Egypt out of
Israel, can you? _
JOHN: Not easy, is it?
DAVID: Well, you know.
JOHN: And the Palestinians are looking for
home. Aren't they?
DAVID: Well --
JOHN: And I, and I know you, you had to be
awful reassuring with the two ladies, particularly I'm
sure Vivian --
DAVID: Well, I had, I had to grab them out.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
DAVID: I mean I showed them right something
from the Second Testament. I said now wait a minute.
I said, you know, here you are saying you believe in
me. I said now wait. Those that believe in me don't
believe in me. You can't believe in me. You got to
believe in the book that I show you. -
JOHN: Sure.8
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DAVID: I said now here you are, and I'm
showing you right here the second part of this. I mean
I'm not -- you know, stop looking at me. Look at the
words. What does God want?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: And, and now you're, and now you're
drawing back? I said that don't do you no good.
JOHN: Uh-uh.
DAVID: You know, you can't, you can't
worship God in the flesh. It's impossible. 2,000
years ago --
JOHN: Well, I think if you, if you reassure
them that, that you're all going to be together outside
there anyhow and --
DAVID: Well, they know better than that you
know.
l JOHN: Well, you will. You'll see one
another out there.
DAVID: Yeah. Maybe eventual.
JOHN: And as I, as I told Steven, we're
probably going to get Vicky over to a hospital to make
sure she gets a good, thorough check-up and, and Jack
the Sheriff has said that he's going to make
arrangements for her to call her son. And --
DAVID: That will work.
JOHN: -- and I think that will be a little
0 92,I
4
more reassuring for her too, huh?
DAVID: Yeah, that will work.
JOHN: That -- yeah, yeah.
DAVID: Good old Jack.
. JOHN: Hey. I was just talking to him a
little while ago, and he's quite a guy. Nice fellow.
DAVID: See, the thing about, the thing about
the Waco Sheriff's Department is that well, there was
a, there's a black guy. I forgot his name. I wish I
could remember his name.
JOHN: A lieutenant?
DAVID: Well, he actually, he was on a beat
out here for a while. Kind of a heavyset guy.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And we're not talking about
Dickerson. This is a guy, a younger guy.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And when we first got arrested in
'88, we all went down there, you know. And none has
ever been in jail before. And they took our ~
fingerprints. They're like cramming my fingers and
stuff into the, into the ink and on the paper. I mean
talking about really rough.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And I said ouch. I said hey, you
know, could you be a little easier on my fingers,
14
15|
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5
please? And the guy looked at me like huh? You know.
Most guys that get in there are all tough guys, you
know what I mean?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: Back mouth and all that kind of --
JOHN: Oh, I got to believe he runs a pretty
tight ship.
DAVID: Huh?
JOHN: I think Jack runs a pretty tight ship
and has good people working there, you know?
DAVID: Yeah, some of them are.
JOHN: And I don't think he'd put up with a
lot of nonsense.
DAVID: Some, some of them are gunslingers
though, you know. Some are, some are good and some are
gunslingers. This one black guy, he just really, he
just really warmed up to us a lot, you know?
JOHN: Yeah.
I DAVID: Because like I say, the jail cell _
system got turned around when we were in there. And a
lot of the guys that were in there, you know, piped
down and everything. Because we showed them truth, you
know. We showed them the truth when we were there.
Because the guys that were there were -- there's a lot
of guys in prison they're religious supposedly, right?
JOHN: Yeah.
Q . 92
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6
DAVID: They gap the gap.
JOHN: Religious in quotes?
DAVID: Yeah, you know. They got no other,
no other thing to be, you know?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: You know, we presented our, our
positions and all that, and the only one that got hell
after a while was the Sunday preacher that kept coming
in Sunday, and he was getting questions he couldn't
answer --
JOHN: Laughing.!
DAVID: -- from the inmates.
JOHN: Putting him on the spot?
DAVID: Yeah, you know. And that -- and like
I say, where Floyd and them were at, there were some
guys in there, pretty tough guys, you know. And they
all -- well, there was this one guy that was really
bad. He was a second murder. I mean the guy wasn't in
there on attempted. He had murdered another guy. The
guy was a black guy. He, he had a, had one cut off.
He had just like a stub.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And he would just knock the crap out
of people, you know? He'd just hit them with his stub.
JOHN: Laughing.!
DAVID: And so --
5.
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7
JOHN: He was an inmate?
DAVID: Yeah, he was an inmate.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: And you know, what happened was is
Floyd and Stan were in, in that cell. Because they
were older guys.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: And Floyd, Floyd is from New Bedford,
Mass., and he, he'd been, he'd been semi-boxer for
years and stuff. So he can hold his own, you know?
JOHN: What are they all going to fight for
one bunk or something?
DAVID: No. Well, what happened was is, you
know, Floyd told this guy, you know, he says, you know,
hey, puts his trust in the law, you know. Kind of a
black guy. He said I put my trust in the law, you
know. And there's some things, you know, that, that
you need to know, you know, bros. No need for fighting
and all that, you know. We need to, need to learn some
things from God, you know. The guy says what, what can
you show me about God, you know? So Floyd started
showing him.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: So, so the guy went around and he
started, he started telling the other inmates they were
going to come in for Bible studies or he's going to
9. '.
8
whip their butt. You know, Floyd had to tell him you
can't do that either, you know.
JOHN: Laughing.!
DAVID: So you know, it's, it's a wild thing
there inside that, inside those prisons, you know.
It's just a, it's just a wild thing, you know.
There's, there's a lot of people in there, they got
nothing more to do but think about God. But a lot of
them get this hope, and the first thing they hit the
door when they go out, they throw that Bible away. You
know what I mean?
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
DAYID: Because they never got the first
insight on it anyway.
JOHN: You know, it's amazing. Because I've,
I've been in and out of a bunch of correctional
facilities over the years though. And like you say,
the minister comes in on Sunday to talk to them. And
he can't answer their questions. And if you get the
right personality and the right person in there talking
to those people, they want to hear. And they want to
listen. And they want to learn. If you can get to the
right individuals.
DAVID: They've_got time, don't they?
JOHN: One thing they have plenty of, isn't
it?
_ ,' ' 1 . . . ,.
DAVID: They got time.
JOHN: Sure. You bet they do.
DAVID: What were you in for?
JOHN: I was in interviewing people
DAVID: Oh, I see.
JOHN: Or teaching schools.
DAVID: What do you -- what did you
JOHN: Well, I had to teach various
to police officers.
DAVID: Oh, I see.
JOHN: And corrections officers and
like that. Try and educate them a little bit
DAVID: Yeah.usually.
teach?
classes
things
JOHN: And it's always an experience. But
you know, you'd spend time talking to some of
people that were in there. And never had any
difficulty communicating with them.the, the
Of course, some of them weren't what you'd
call rocket scientists. Room temperature IQ would be
kind of high for some of them. And then others were
very bright, you know.
And you, you had people in there that had
committed one crime in their life and, you know, it ma
have been a crime of passion or something and
DAVID: Some for --
JOHN: -- they were model, they were model9
Y
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10
inmates. Yeah. Whether, whether it was even a rape or
a murder or something. But it was a one-time deal
because of a crime of passion. And --
DAVID: The law of Moses had a remedy for
that. Cities of refuge, if a person got into a fight
with another person --
JOHN: Yeah. V
DAVID: -- then what would happen is, is they
didn't mean to do it, you know. They'd run to a city
of refuge which God appointed in different places
throughout Judaea. And that way they would like have,
you know, like if you, if you run into a church, you_
know. Like if you feel like that you really need an
extra hearing. It's not, not what it appears to be.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Then that way that Moses would come
in the situation and Aaron and stuff, and they would
take it before the Lord, and the Lord would make the
final judgment. And that way a guy could get a real
fair trial.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Otherwise, the obvious is an eye for
an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: But anyway. And of course, if a
person, you know, had veniciously sic! you know
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ll
premeditated hurting somebody else, then if he tried to
run to a city of refuge they would bring Moses and
stuff in, and he'd still get the electric chair, you
know.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Couldn't hide.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: But you know, there's a lot of people
that -- just one that used to always bug me about
judges.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Is that, you know, a lot of judges
they see so many cases they get tired of it. And
they -- like in our trial in '88, our judge kept going
to sleep. -
JOHN: Laughing.! You got to be kidding.
DAVID: I mean he -- seriously. We, we
would, he would -- the prosecuting attorney was, was
producing the evidence. And all --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- of a sudden everyone started
hearing snoring!.
JOHN: That's a little embarrassing.
DAVID: He was -- it was a sideshow. And,
and then there --
JOHN: Well, I've never seen one do that in
I
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12
federal court. But --
DAVID: I guess --
JOHN: -- I, I can't deny it probably had to
happen. That's unbelievable though.
years ago,DAVID: Judge Roy Bean's court you --
JOHN: Was he just an old-timer?
DAVID: Yeah he was.
JOHN: Was he?
DAVID: He was old.
JOHN: Probably should --
DAVID: Real old.
JOHN: -- probably should have retired a few
huh?
DAVID: He -- a kid came in and had a little
pink comb.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And the woman, the woman brought,
brought this child in, right? One of my kids.
JOHN: Uh-huh. V
DAVID: And then she had a little pink comb
and the judge, judge says wait a minute now. He says
ma'am, he
ice cream
that out.goes ma'am, you -- the child can't have an
cone in the court now. Now you need to take
JOHN: Laughing.!
DAVID: And then we were like looking
K_ }
13
around --
JOHN: His, his vision wasn't real good
either, huh?
DAVID: Tell it wasn't. And I mean it's
like, you know, well, Your Honor, it's, it's a comb.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: Oh, oh. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go
ahead, maam. Sit down, you know.
JOHN: Laughing.! _
DAVID: And this is a judge. And he let
George talk -- I mean George got up there on the, on
the jury stand.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: I mean not on the, on the --
JOHN: On the witness stand.
DAVID: -- on the witness stand. And George
went off on all this hellicious sic!, you know,
metaphoric language and all that. And the judge just
sat there and talked and talked and let him talk. And
I got up on the, on the witness stand. And all of a
sudden, you know --
JOHN: Did the defense attorney object to any
of it?
DAVID: No. He wanted George to talk.
JOHN: Did he?
DAVID: He told me afterwards.
I 592' 14
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: He said the more George talked, the
better it looked for you all guys.
JOHN: Yeah. And it was -- was it right? It
worked?
~ DAVID: Well, that was his whole - he told
me later that was his whole, his whole thing. You
know, George was just crazy all along --
JOHN: Sure. _
DAVID: _-- and everybody knew it. But, but
the thing of it was is I wanted the actual facts being
brought out too which our attorney didn't take that
position. He says look, you know, you may have the
facts. Everything is in your favor both ways. So you
know, let him work against himself.
And so anyway, so George talked and talked
and talked. And when I got up there and I was asked
questions, I always just had yes or no. Yes or no.
Yes or no.
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: And so then when I'd try to explain
things, then I was just cut off every time. Cut off
every time. See, I already know how that system works.
And so what happened was after the, after the trial and
everything, I looked over at the judge and I says, I
said Your Honor, I says can I ask you a question,
7
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please? And he
says --
JOHN:
DAVID:
you listened to
when I tried to
JOHN:
DAVID:
winks at my eye
the matter is I
he's crazy.
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID
saw this aroundD
15
goes well, why not, you know. And I
Laughing.!
-- why was it that when George spake
him. You let him run on and on. And
explain, you stopped me.
Um-hum.
He goes -- looks over at me and he
and he goes well, he says, the truth of
was kind of scared of George. We know
Laughing.!
I mean you know and --
That's bizarre.
It's, it's -- you never, you never
here. I mean I've never -- this,
this -- they should make a series on TV about some of
the court cases
JOHN:that take place here in Waco.
Well, I don't think you'll run into
that in the federal system. Because it's, it's kind of
an austere system. It's -- there's not a lot of --
DAVID: Indiscernible! put them away. Yeah,
I know.
JOHN: There's not a lot of horsing around.
It's very matter of fact. And you know, they just
don't put up with a lot of nonsense. And everybody --
-92 I
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when they say you get your day in court, they're,
they're very sincere about it that it's a fair shake.
And you don't get this good old boy concept and it's
serious. And federal judges take their jobs very
seriously.
DAVID: Yeah, they got to, don't they?
JOHN: Sure they do.
DAVID: They get higher and higher in
position. y
JOHN: Yeah, they do. I mean even though
it's, it's not an elected position, it's an appointed
position by the, the President with the consent of the
Senate. They give a lot of thought to who's appointed
to federal judgeships. Because they're looking for
people with a real smart judicial backgrounds. You
know, and you, you find very few young federal judges.
Unidentified male voice in background not
discernible.!
I guess the big thing that you see more of is
federal judges that don't have a lot of criminal
background. That's you know, criminal law background
as opposed to civil law background. If, if I would say
there's a shortcoming anyplace that, that could be it.
But, but they're all pretty learned men, you know. And
pretty wise men. And --
DAVID: I hope they are.
Q I92 I
17
JOHN: - they're fair.
DAVID: I hope our judge is wise.
JOHN: You know he will be. And you know
he'll be fair. And the other thing is the, the court
system in, in this particular issue, Lord, it's going
to be thorough. I mean you know it's going to be
thorough. Because of it's not just the eyes of Waco
looking at this. The, the eyes of the country are
looking at this. A
DAVID: It's not just the eyes of the
country, John.
JOHN: Well, I hear you.
DAVID: Twinkle, twinkle little star.
JOHN: I hear you.
DAVID: Look up.
JOHN: I hear you. But you, you know what I
mean. The media is going to, has been giving it so
much attention so far you can -~
DAVID: Oh, that -- now come on, John. That
media is being fed hogwash. You know that. You all
got that --
JOHN: NO.
DAVID: -- you all got that wrapped up, boy.
Come on indiscernible! --
JOHN: Well, you, you stimulated the media
with almost an hour's worth of dialogue. ~
Q
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18
DAVID: No, no, no indiscernible! --
JOHN: And you really stimulated them.
'DAVID: Yeah, but like I said in the, in the
meeting, you know, people don't know how to categorize.
They're too. they're too used to sermonizations sic!.
A person doesn't --
JOHN: Well, how many members of the media
even are familiar with Mt. Carmel or Branch Davidian?
I mean --
DAVID: Everybody right now.
JOHN: But they're only --
DAVID: What is the Branch Davidians?
JOHN: -- somewhat familiar with it, right?
It may be a slanted familiarization.
DAVID: Right. How many people are really
familiar with the actual knowledge of the gospels. I
Very few, right, John?
JOHN: You bet. You bet.
DAVID: I mean you know, they really don't
know the real meaning of -- what's so great about God
dying on a cross? I mean come on. You know how many
Jews died on the --
JOHN: No, they may know some concepts or
whatever they've been taught on how many --
DAVID: Portions, yeah.
JOHN: -- how many -- well, you can look at a
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lot of them, and how many really if, if they're raising
a family. If they're, if they're working long hours
and they're doing other things, maybe they just don't
have the time.
DAVID = Right .
JOHN: And I'm, I'm not using that as an
EXCUSE -
DAVID: That's realistic though. It's a
fact. A
JOHN: I am. I am.
DAVID: It's a good, it's a good reality of
seeing that. N
JOHN: Yet you know, I'd be the first to tell
you that there are a lot of religions that, you know,
you get your education as a youngster, and you go up
through the whether it's parochial system, whatever.
And them zoom.
DAVID: Called tradition.
JOHN: You kind of slide away.
DAVID: This is the matter of the fact
whether you understand it or not. Now quote it back to
me.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah. You got it.
DAVID: You want to, do you want a star next
to your name? Quote it back to me.
JOHN: But that's the way you were taught in
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20
school too when I was taught in school. It wasn't --
DAVID: I wasn't taught that way though in
school. _
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: You got to remember --
JOHN: -- I'm not talking from a parochial
standpoint.
DAVID: No, no. I'm talking about regular
school. See I failed all my grades all the way
through. There's not one grade in school that I didn't
fail in.
JOHN: Really?
DAVID: Seriously. You get, check my report
cards. I'm sure that will come out in the movie or
whatever. I just did not have the ability to
understand their format of teaching.
JOHN: Well, maybe they didn't understand
you.
DAVID: Evidently.
JOHN: You know. I mean maybe they really
didn't understand you.
DAVID: Failed the first grade twice. I mean
goodness.
JOHN: But you and I both know that you're a
very bright person so --
DAVID: Well, I have the ability to teach
EI I92_ 1
21
now --
JOHN: I mean I can look at a little fellow
that used to be, a little boy that used to be one of my
neighbors. And he has like Tourette's Syndrome.
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JOHN: People thought that he, he had a
totally different problem for years in school. Nicest
little kid in the world.
DAVID: Um-hum.
JOHN: But he had the, the tick, right? And
he could be sitting someplace, and an obscenity would
come out and other things. He couldn't control that
until -- it took years to find the absolute proper
medication. And the poor little guy was having all
kinds of problems in school, because people didn't know
what his problem was.
DAVID: Yeah. They tried to see the obvious.
JOHN: Oh, sure. They thought he was, you
know, something really mentally wrong with him.
DAVID: That's like little Joshua. You all
got little Joshua down there?
JOHN: Oh, yeah, yeah.
DAVID: I mean, you know --
JOHN: God bless him, huh?
DAVID: He's, he's very, very, very hyper and
very -- you can look in his eyes, and you can see that
I
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22
not all the light bulbs are burning there.
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
boy?
DAVID:
is --
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
He, he was taken
JOHN:
DAVID:
and --
JOHN:
huh?
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:Yeah, yeah.
You know.
Well, what's, what's Wayne's little
His name is -- Wayne's little boy
You know the one I'm talking about?
Yeah, Jamie.,
Jamie, yeah. 1
That was a doctor's mistake.
was it really?
Yeah, that was strictly a doctor.
in for jaundice.
Uh-huh.
The, the first stage of jaundice
Oh, it wasn't something from birth,
No, he was a perfectly born baby.
Oh, boy.
And when you meet the other of
Wayne's kids, they're all good-looking, smart,
intelligent people.
JOHN:
DAVID:Yeah. Yeah. _
But she took him in to check him for
0
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jaundice.23
JOHN: Uhhuh. O
DAVID: And the doctor says no. You know
just, you know, a lot, a lot of general practitioners
do that. They just kind of like --
JOHN: Just a misdiagnosis.
DAVID: Yeah. He just miss got a diagnosis.
And it developed more. And when they finally caught it
it was, it had already gotten, you know, gets up to the
brain. Something that is kind of like polio or
something. You can completely avoid it now, you know?
JOHN: Yeah. But there's no turning it
around now, huh?
DAVID; No. hNo. Only, only the next phase.
You know, they did a lot --
JOHN; What a tragedy, huh?
DAVID: You know, it allows the --
JOHN: What a tragedy.
DAVID: -- it allows parents to stop and
consider, you know?
JOHN: Yeah, well like I told you before. I
got a little goddaughter that's a little Down syndrome
child. And she's in her thirties. And it's -- you
give them a lot of extra love. Because most never live
to be that old.
DAVID: Right .
.92>
24
JOHN: You know, because of heart murmurs and
other problems. But they need a lot of love in there.
I know, I know Jamie does, too. A lot of love.
Because he probably understands what you're saying,
huh?
DAVID: He can -- no, the way, the way he
communicates is, is he, he becomes familiar with the
way his senses perceive presence.
JOHN: Uh-huh. .
DAVID: Like he can hear base signals. He
can, he can understand, you know, that signals from his
father's voice, from his mother's voice. l
JOHN: But he knows his mother and his father
though, huh?
DAVID: Oh, yeah. Definitely.
JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.
DAVID: You know, it's just like --
JOHN: And his, and his sisters and brothers
and whatever.
DAVID: Yeah, you know. And he knows when
his mother's around he's ready for eats. See, he had a
problem to where the way, the way his mind is working
like if he puts his finger in his mouth and bites.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: You got to watch him, because it will
hurt so he keeps biting harder.92
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25
JOHN: Oh, is that right?
DAVID: That's right. You know. So that was
a problem that had to be dealt with. He had to learn
that instead of, instead of increasing his pain by
biting harder he needs to, to let go.
JOHN: Sure. Got to have a lot of patience
with him, huh?
DAVID: Oh, yeah. It took, it took therapy
on our part. And it also took therapy on the, on the
State's part.
JOHN: Yeah. Because I spent a lot of time
in the room with him here when he, when he first came
out. Well, he came out with I think two other
youngsters came out the same time that he --
DAVID: How -- you know how old he is, don't
you?
JOHN: He's like 9, isn't he?
DAVID: What is Jamie, 13?
JOHN: I thought he was 9 or 10 or something
like that.
DAVID: Oh I think he's older than that.
JOHN: Really. But I mean he's just like a
little baby.
DAVID: Oh, yeah. He's a baby all the way
through.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
.9 O;.92 _. 1
DAVID 0
0
old.
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
you. And
DAVID
tried to preach
JOHN:
DAVID
too afterwards.
JOHN:
DAVID
to you.
JOHN:
DAVID
indiscernible!
JOHN:
be growing after
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
going to be made
JOHN:
DAVID:
boy too after al26
You know, he's like, he's like 1 year
How you, how you feeling today?
Well, just tired. Like I say it's --
Well, I know it was the Sabbath for
And I - and we, we tried to, we
to you all night long and --
Yeah.
Then I had to deal with other people
Yeah. Well --
I sure would like to read something
I bet you would, wouldn't you?
Oh, come on, John. You
You had -- hey. Your nose has got to
last night.
No, it's not.
Huh?
There's no well, you know, I'm
into a real boy too.
Do what?
I'm going to be changed into a real
1 this.
'92f 27
JOHN: You are?
DAVID: My godmother's going to -- remember?
Change me into Pinocchio and then he's going, I'm going
to learn my lesson and be turned into a real boy.
JOHN: Laughing.! That's right. That's
right. The -- you've been busy this evening though. I
know that. You and Steven both, you know, have been
real busy.
DAVID: Well, you'll, you'll like I say --
JOHN: Are, are - do you think you're going
to have -- I know Rita was reluctant to come out
tonight.
DAVID: She's sitting right over here right
now eating. She didn't even eat supper.
JOHN: Really?
DAVID: She's, she's terrified of you. You
didn't eat all day, huh?
JOHN: of me?
DAVID: Well, you know, of, of the dragon out
there.
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: The lamb-like beast that speaks as a
dragon.
JOHN: Tell her not to be, huh? I mean you,
you can --
DAVID: That's what I'm trying to explain.
O Ii 28
I'm trying to say look.
JOHN: You've talked to --
DAVID: Here I am --
JOHN: -- the other people, you know, other
people that have come out of here. You've seen the
children that have come out of here. And we certainly
don't abuse people that come out, and we take care of
them. She'll be able to bring her Bible. She'll be
able to continue her studies. _We haven't lied to you
about it. Not going to either. If I thought I had to
lie to you to try and resolve this thing, I'd go home.
DAVID: Now, John .
JOHN: Believe me, I'd go home.
DAVID: Now John. Whose nose is growing?
JOHN: Not mine. What have I, what have --
when have I lied to you? You tell me.
DAVID: when have you had the authority to
speak the complete truth?
JOHN: Well --
DAVID: Remember, you're one phase.
JOHN: I am.
DAVID: You're the door.
JOHN: I am. But I'm not going to lie to
you.
DAVID: But, but the guy behind you might.
JOHN: That's why he's not talking to you.
29
DAVID: I know.
JOHN: Okay. We --
DAVID: Everything I say is true until
otherwise.
JOHN: Hey --
DAVID: John, I love you guys.
JOHN: We're all --
DAVID: Like I say, I'm, I'm trying to pick
at you every chance I can to try to impart to you a
thought here or there or to think to yourself hmm.
Hmm, hmm.
JOHN: Hmm. You don't think I'd try and do
that to you, do you?
DAVID: Well, I mean because we already agree
with you.
JOHN: Sure. Hey --
DAVID: I mean you're not coming -- I haven't
asked you to come in here to me. You'ye asked me to
come out to you.
JOHN: Well, you offered to let me come in
there though.
DAVID: Yeah, I did. And bring a Bible.
JOHN: I know. And I told you I'd meet you
halfway. And you're a little reluctant to do that.
DAVID: No, that's not the case.
JOHN: What's the case?
9 9 1
30
DAVID: Well, because if I came out too
early, you wouldn't get anybody else out of here.
JOHN: If you ~-
DAVID: Let me tell you about human nature
indiscernible! -
JOHN: Hey. If you, if you walked out that
door, it would be like a duck with all her ducklings --
DAVID: You're wrong.
JOHN: -- coming right on out.
DAVID: You're wrong.
JOHN: You really believe that?
DAVID: I, I know that as a fact. See, you
got to understand about human nature. You've got to
understand --
JOHN:
DAVID
situation.
JOHN:
DAVID
die willfully.
JOHN:
didn't.
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVIDYeah.
-- that for instance in the Jim Jones
Well, that was a little bent.
The majority of those people did not
No, I know they didn't. A lot of them
A lot of them didn't.
No. No.
Okay, and another thing. You see,
when a person teaches speculation, theory, philosophy,
"92. _ I
31
people reach up and grab mental perceptions, and they
incorporate this because it works in the mind. But
event and situation proves it does not work in the
flesh. Philosophy is for a couple of men sitting down
talking the bull over a game of dominos. Okay?
In other words, when you go to Sunday church
and when you go to Sabbath church, whichever one you
choose, and you go and you and you hear philosophies of
men, you hear of concepts and principles, things that
appear to be right, things that seem to be right. But
as soon as you go out that door, John, and you can bear
me witness, that philosophy is left back in that church
building. When you step out into the real world --
JOHN: You think so?
DAVID: We know so. In other words, the
thought --
JOHN: I don't know.
DAVID: Now wait a minute, John. Now the
thought of being like Christ --
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: -- and the thought of not lying, the
thought of not stealing, cheating, killing.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: These thoughts and concepts of
helping your fellow man all are good in theory. When
it comes to actually driving home because you're hungry
CQ- I
32
on Sunday morning, Sunday evening after church.
Everyone's got a good appetite by that time, don't .
they?
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: When you see the guy on the side of
the road with a flat tire, that doesn't mean you're
going to stop and help him even though the preacher
said so.
JOHN:
DAVID
knows that very
preach. .
JOHN:
You --
DAVID
JOHN:
DAVID
Christ. Now if
gospels, we seeUh-huh. A
And also is the fact that everybody
few preachers practice what they
well, you hope more than a few.
First of all --
-- you really hope, huh?
-- here we see the preachers preach
we look at Christ according to the
a man that's a pauper. We see a man
who made himself with no reputation except by the
works.
JOHN: I --
DAVID: You see what man --
JOHN: -- can't tell you that all priests and
ministers and rabbis are going to go running around in
sackcloth and ashes.
DAVID:Q O
33
Now, Christ didn't wear sackcloth.
He wore a very well -- well, let's say it was a very
expensive garment. But it was not --
JOHN:
life.
DAVID:Yeah, but he lived a very moderate
-- flashy. It was high quality. It
was high quality. I mean let's, let's don't cut it
down to Levi blue jeans now.
JOHN:
though per se.
DAVID:And but he led a very moderate life
Exactly. In other words, he was his
doctrine in, in expression, in life.
JOHN:
DAVID:
example.
JOHN:Sure.
And the disciples followed the same
But different churches look at this in
different, you know, whether -- whatever church are
involved then they have a little different view on
ministers, pastors, priests, rabbis, etc.
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
they're the true
DAVID:
JOHN:Well, definitely they do.
Sure.
Look how they live. e
And many of them all believe that
church. And --
And those, and those --
-- and whatever. I'm not going to get
9 .
34
in a debate over --
DAVID: It's not a dehate, John. It's --
JOHN: - what is and what isn't.
DAVID: -- it's just a reality. I mean
there, there are ministers who live very luxuriously
today.
JOHN: Sure. You bet they do.
DAVID: They make a lot of money off talking
about Jesus. .
JOHN: Hey, we had one down in Louisiana that
did until some things caught up with him.
DAVID: Yeah, IRS. And that's where the
church and state policy becomes something to consider.
JOHN: Old Jimmy.
DAVID: Yeah, but what happens is this. You
see, the state realized that people will pay their ties
a lot more freer than they'll pay their income tax.
JOHN: Hey, can you imagine how many people
still swear by this man?
DAVID: Why? They feel he's being
persecuted.
JOHN: That and I guess his charisma, huh?
DAVID: That's charisma. Paul says that the
Jews had a zeal but not according to knowledge.
Tradition that's ingrained from the birth, that's
ingrained by tradition, by the activities of a person's
0 Q,92
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upbringing and life, are like the colors of BpOtS on
the back of a horse. An Appaloosa is known by its
spots. You know? And it's virtually impossible for
man to be able to change that. That's why Jeremiah
says can an Ethiopian change the color of his skin or a
leopard his spots? No. What nature has placed there
is there.
Okay. So man who is of nature may go in and
hear words about God. May hear words about Christ. p
But if the real spirit or the power of God who is the
creator of all things is not attaining those words,
it's just empty words. And a person cannot change of
himself. So you find in religions a lot of people do
hear words, but they don't have the power assisting thewords. I
Paul says that there are those that have a
form of godliness but do not have the power thereof.
They don't really have the real present, true spirit
amongst them. So we have a form of religion. We have
a copy of religion. But the power doesn't assist it,
okay? So instead of having miraculous power to these
people, God has decided since the days of John to give
them truth. That's why the seven seals are a truth
which is the missing key to the door. If we want
power, then we have to go through these seven steps.
We have to know in ourselves where the problem is.
. ._._.. . _. , ....-..a.-.>-¢.. _ .
Now we allQ ,
know we need Christ. Without36
Christ we can do nothing for God. We could only do for
ourselves. Man has the power to eat, to sleep, to
work, to think, and we get by in this world. As long
as it rains we got, we got, you know, seed for the
ground, we got something to eat. As long as someone
gets off their rear-end --
JOHN: As long as you just use a little
initiative sometimes, huh? -
DAVID: Yeah. You got to get yourself, push
yourself.
JOHN: You
DAVID: N0
God. You know. But
means that the worldsure do.
work, no eat is the principle of
of course, there's other ways and
has built up through economics
where some people don't have to work hard to eat good.
You know, you get a little bit of collateral. You
start using usury, little bit of money made off of
other people's money. You know, you get these real -
sophisticated systems to where hey, power and riches
are found through other means besides labor. And this
is where the world becomes very complex. And this is
where the prophets start talking about this era. It
actually cheats men from real experience of life.
So you know, I thought I just, I just wanted
to share something with you. And see, saw what you,
Q O1 I 92 .
37
you know, see what you think about it.
JOHN: Um-hum. i
DAVID: It's, it's a statement that's made
in, in Matthew 23 and 24. You know, just take it word
for word. You know, Christ didn't come to pat the back
of the churches, did he, in his day?
JOHN: Uh-uh.
DAVID: He came to witness against them,
didn't he? Well, the Pharisees were living high off
the hog, weren't they?
JOHN: I can assume.
DAVID: But they couldn't really give the
people anything, could they? Except more laws and more
rules.
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Well, Christ came, and he didn't live
like that. So his life was a testament against him,
wasn't it? So he says in Matthew 23, it says, you
know, that Christ said to the multitude and to his
disciples saying, he says hey, the scribes and the
Pharisees sit in Moses seat. Now we know anciently
that Moses was one man, right? Moses didn't live high
off the hog either, did he?
JOHN: Uh-uh.
DAVID: No. But he was the leader of Israel,
wasn't he?
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JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now here we got a situation in
Christ's day where all the leaders of the churches of,
of the synagogues are all trying to be Moses, right?
And then Christ says all therefore whatsoever they bid
you observe, that observe and do; but do ye not after
their works: for they say, and do not. Now that's a
low blow, isn't it? You think that made him popular
with the Pharisees? -
JOHN: Not necessarily.
DAVID: Yeah. Then he says for they bind
heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on
men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them
with one of their fingers. I mean they want you to do
all these things, but they don't do it. But all their
works they do is to be seen of men. Oh they make broad
their phylacteries. You know what a phylactery is,
don't you? It's the little, it's the little shroud
that they wear, you know, it has little fringes on it.
JOHN: Uh-huh.
DAVID: And they enlarge the borders of their
garments. You know, they got these nice robes. And
they love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief
seats in the synagogues where everybody can see them.
They love greetings in the marketplace and to be called
of men, Rabbi, Rabbi, which means master. But be ye
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' 1' not called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ,
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2 and all of you are brethren. Because now he's just
3* promoting himself, right?
4 And call no man your father upon earth: for
5 one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither ye be
6 called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
7 yBut he that is greatest among you shall be your
8 servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be
9 *abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be
10 exalted. But woe unto you, the scribes and Pharisees,
llj hypocrites!
12~ JOHN: Do you think I'm going to be exalted
13 for what I've been doing here in the last twenty some
14 days? I
15 DAVID: I hope so --
16 JOHN: I've been humbling the hell out of
17 myself. I
18 DAVID: Yeah, to listen to this old fool
19 talk, right?
20 JOHN: Laughing.!
21 DAVID: God's going to, God's going to give
22 you a seat right next to his throne.
23 JOHN: I hope so.
24 DAVID: To endure all this?
25 JOHN: We'll, we'll be there together, huh?
DAVID: I hope so.
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Hey. Hey. You know it.
Okay. So it says woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees. He's not talking about -- he's
talking about these scribes and Pharisees. He calls
them hypocrites. For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven
against men. Now to think that religious leaders can
keep men from knowing the truth, right?
JOHN:
DAVID:Um-hum.
For ye neither go in yourselves,
neither suffer ye them that are entering in to go in.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For
ye devour widows houses. You know how they, how today
the ministers will say dedicate your home and all that
to the church so when you die, you know, they can have
the means to spread the gospel?
JOHN:
DAVID:
Sanhedrins too.
JOHN:
DAVID:
pretence ye make
JOHN:
DAVID:
JOHN:
DAVID:
that.Yeah.
They did that in the days of the
Many are successful too, aren't they?
Oh, lots of them. For -- and for
long prayer.
Maybe I missed my calling.
Huh?
Maybe I missed my calling.
Well, it's better not to be like
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JOHN: Well.
DAVID: Therefore ye shall receive the
greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and
Pharisees, you hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land
to make one proselyte. You know, to convert someone?
And when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child
of hell than yourselves. This Christ is radical, isn't
it? Well, he's really nailing these guys, isn't he?
Woe unto
shall swear by the
shall swear by the
See when you, whenye blind guides which say, whosoever
temple, it is nothing; but whosoever
gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
you made a pledge to bring gold, you
know, for the temple, then they wanted you to hold onto
it.
Ye fools and blind: for what is greater, the
gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? The
temple represents the house of God, right?
And whatsoever -- whosoever shall swear by
the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever swear by the
gift upon the alter, he is guilty. Because see, when
you brought a gift to the altar, guess who got it? The
priest. You see? Ye fools and blind: for what is
greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the
gift?
And whoso swear by the temple, sweareth by
it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that
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shall swear by heaven sweareth by the throne of God,
and him that sitteth thereon. I
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, for ye
pay tithe, you know, 10 percent, of mint and anise and
cummin which are herbs, right? But you have omitted
the weightier matters of the law such as judgment,
mercy, faith. These ought ye to have done, and not
leave the other undone.
Now it says over here, ye blind guides, woe
unto you. For ye make clean the outside of the cup and
of the platter, because they were very careful with
washing their dishes, you know what I mean? It was a,
it was a religious thing. But with - they still do it
in Israel now. But within they are full of extortion
and excess.
I mean, you know, if you eat too much food,
you get gas, right?. Your body can only digest so much
at a time. And these Sanhedrin and Pharisees were
real, real big, real big, chubby men. And they are
today too. They love feasting, you know?
JOHN: Many of them are, aren't they?
DAVID: Huh?
JOHN: Many of them are, aren't they?
DAVID: They, they pattern themselves after
Santa Claus, don't they?
JOHN: Yeah.
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DAVID: Thou blind Pharisees, cleanse first
that which is within the cup and the platter, that the
outside of them may be clean also. Yeah, you know,
wash your dishes. But be careful what you put on it.
You know? Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! 'For ye are like unto whited sepulchres, _
which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within
full of dead men's bones, and all uncleanliness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous
unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and
iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! Because ye build the tombs of the
prophets, and you garnish the sepulchres of the
righteous, and you say, if we had been in the days of
our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them
in the killing of the prophets.
Wherefore ye are witnesses unto yourselves,
that ye are the children of them which killed the
prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, oh generation of vipers, how can ye escape
the damnation of hell?
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets,
and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall
and crucify; and some of them shall ye whup sic! in-
your synagogues. That upon you may come all the
righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of
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righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of
Barachias, whom ye slew between the porch and the
altar.
verily I say unto you, all these things shall
come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
thou that killeth the prophets, then stonest them which
are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy
children together. See, all the prophets talk about
God gathering his people together as one nation again.
But the problem is even as a hen gathered her chicks
under her wings, and ye would not!
Behold, your house, which is their temple, is
left unto you desolate. Now here's a religion,
Judaism. They've go the law. They got the prophets.
They got everything. And yet they're rejecting Christ,
right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: And Christ is telling them now, from
this day forward, he says for I say unto you, ye shall
not see me henceforth, until ye shall say, blessed is
he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
It says Jesus went out of the temple and
departed from the temple. His disciples came to him to
shew him the buildings of the temple. Because you .
know, these were beautiful buildings. And Jesus said
unto them, see ye not all these things? In other
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words, take a look at this. Verily I say unto you,
there shall not be left here one stone upon another,
that shall not be thrown down.
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the
disciples came to him privately, saying, tell us, what
shall ~- when shall these things be? When would the
temple be thrown down, right? What shall be the sign
of thy coming? They thought Christ was going to do it,
didn't they? And of the end of the world? Now in
Daniel 9 and all that in the prophecies it talked about
this would happen. So the disciples, they think yeah,
this is fixing to really come down now. So when is it
going to happen?
Jesus answered unto them, take heed that no
man deceive you. For many shall come in my name,
saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. What's
going to happen? Many will come saying Christ is Lord
and shall deceive many, right? And ye shall hear of
wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled:
for all these things must come to pass, but the end is
not yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and
kingdom against kingdom: there shall be famines, and
pestilences, and earthquakes, in diverse places. You
know, the making of Europe was bloody, wasn't it? When
Rome -- when the Nomadic kingdom started fighting
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against Rome, and it started splitting up. Lots of
wars, right? '
All these things are the beginning of
sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up and to be
afflicted, and ye shall, they shall kill you: and ye
shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Then
shall many be offended, and shall betray one another,
and shall hate one another. And many false prophets
shall arise, and shall deceive many. And because
iniquity shall abound, everybody's doing wrong, the
love of many shall wax cold. You can't trust anybody,
right?
But he that shall endure unto the end, the
same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom
shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto
all nations; and then shall the end come. What gospel?
You know, endure to the end. Keep your love, right?
JOHN: Dm-hum.
DAVID: All right. When ye therefore --
JOHN: It's amazing how many people find that
love at the end, isn't it?
DAVID: Well, hopefully now here's what the
end comes whenever --
JOHN: They find, they find the love in the
beginning. And then they -- as a child. And then they
find the -- that be, that love at the end on their
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2 DAVID: Yeah.
3 JOHN:
4 between.
S DAVID:
6 everybody wants to be
7 they? Catch it right
8 JOHN: Yeah
9 DAVID: But
, 10 you've, you've seen a
11 wrong.
12 JOHN: Yeah
13 DAVID: But
' 14~ to a point to realize
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15h have to be resolved.I-- they seem to forget what's in
Awful lot_of people that way, aren't they?
Yeah, it's kind of sad too. I mean
the thief on the cross, don't
at the last second, huh?
Yeah. Yeah.
you know, like in your job,
lot of people that have done
I sure have.
you have to keep your mentality
that problems come, and problems
It's just like, it's just like --
16 JOHN: Well, I also have to remember that we
17 don't resolve problems the way we did 100 years ago
18 either. And the system has changed an awful lot over
19 the years. And a lot of the hopefully the, the abuses
20 that were there aren't here anymore. And I can --
21 DAVID: You mean the lynch mobs?
22 JOHN: All of -- well, not only that but, you
23 know, somebody gets arrested, and someone says I want a
24 confession and I, you know, I want a confession.
25 Things have changed. Police -- I've been teaching
police officers for oh, 20 years, in various courses.92
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And I've just seen so much improvement in
professionalism. u
DAVID: You mean they don't put a guy in a
seat now anymore with a big, bright light in his face
anymore, right --
JOHN: Not in the least.
DAVID: Huh? Laughing.!
JOHN: Not in the least. No.
DAVID: Yeah . »
JOHN: I mean and it's remarkable to see
those changes and to appreciate those changes. And I
won't tell you that you still don't have abuses, and
you still don't have problems places. But the system
has improved so much over the years.
Listen, let me tell you. Vicky is at
Hillsboro Hospital right now.
DAVID: Okay. Good news.
JOHN: She's there, and I asked them to let
me know when, when she was there and, so she's going to
be taken care of.
DAVID: Good.
JOHN: Plus either you or I guess Steve said
that she was taking her medication out with her so
they'd know exactly what she was on and --
DAVID: Right. So in doing --
JOHN: You, you didn't know of any other
'92. . .
49
problems, did you, that she was having?
DAVID: No, that's it. It's just, you know,
she was --
JOHN: Other than that ankle. You said she
had a --
DAVID: Yeah, well, she had that taken care
of before.
JOHN: Okay. But there was no --
DAVID: She was just --
JOHN: -- reoccurrence of a problem there,
huh?
DAVID: No. She just, she just wanted, she
just wanted to, you know, she went for the past few
days realizing that, you know, that this, this was it
and, you know --
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: -- she was going to stand her fates
and, and you know. She just, she didn't want to, she
didn't want to die out there, you know. She wanted to
die here. And I kept saying wait a minute. That's
not, that's not our purposes. We never taught that.
JOHN: You bet. You bet. And I think Steve
said that she had been in bed for some time too.
. DAVID: Yeah. She just kind of folded up
like a snail, you know, and went into hibernation for a
while.
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JOHN: Really. Really. Well --
DAVID: I've had to ask about a lot of people
here because --
JOHN: I'm glad that you and he were very
supportive with her, you know. Because we're going to
take care of her.
DAVID: Okay. So he that endure --
JOHN: Go ahead.
DAVID: -- unto the
saved, right?
JOHN: Uh~huh.end, the same shall be
DAVID: Endures like what? Like Christ.
Christ doesn't make money off
disciples didn't make money.
They went around doing good.
them, they continued to love.
killed them, they continue to
is Christ talking. Christ is
Now and this gospelof his doctrine. The
They were charitable.
Even though people hated
Even though people
love. You know, and this
the example, you see?
of the kingdom, Christ is
the gospel. You know, forgiving. When Christ forgave
the woman, the, the prostitute, Mary Magdalene, he told
him, he says I am the light of the world. Right? Who
can cast the stone, right? This is an example for all
Christians, you know? You can't judge according to the
appearance of things.
Now it says here when ye therefore shall see1
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the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the
prophet. Christ is referring to something Daniel told
us about, right?
JOHN: Um-hum. '
DAVID: Stand in the holy place, whoso
readeth, let him understand. Which means that Christ
is directing his disciples to what? To read the
prophecy of Daniel, right?
JOHN: Um-hum. .
DAVID: Then
to the mountains: Letlet them which be in Judaea flee
them which is on the housetop
not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to
take his clothes. I mean that was a pretty exaction.
Those are heavy exactions, aren't they?
But woe unto
them that give suck in
can't even go back for
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: What
must be bad. But pray
winter, neither on thethem that are with child, and to
those days! Why? Because you
your baby, can you?
is this abomination then? It
that your flight be not in the
Sabbath day. So Christ still
honors the Sabbath even for the future, doesn't he?
Right?
JOHN: Yeah.
DAVID: For then shall be great tribulation,
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such as was not since the beginning of the world to
this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those
days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be
shortened. Now who are this -- who are these elect?
Then if any man shall say unto you, lo, here
is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall -
arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew
great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were
possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold I
have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold,
he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in
the secret chambers. Secret means he's hiding, right?
JOHN: Um-hum.
DAVID: Can't be found. Believe it not. For
as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth
even to the west; so shall also the coming of the Son
of man be. It will be so clear no one can deny it,
John. No one will be able to deny it, will they? When
the lightning shines, hey, can you see? You can see,
right? For wheresoever the --
JOHN: Had enough of that over here last
night, didn't we?
DAVID: Exactly. When it, when it goes boom,
crack and you see that -- hey, no one's going to tell
n ' I
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