DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL JUNE 15, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: (818) 431-5800 EFTA00059671 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00059672 3 1 : The recorder is on. It 2 is Tuesday, June 15, 2021 and the time is 5:57 3 p.m. 4 : My name is 5 I'm a Special Agent with the U.S. Department of 6 Justice Office of the Inspector General, New 7 York Field Office and these are my credentials. 8 This interview is with Federal Bureau of 9 Prisons Correctional Officer, Lieutenant - can 10 you state your name? 11 12 : First name? 13 14 -: . And is being 15 conducted as part of an official U.S. 16 Department of Justice Office of the Inspector 17 General investigation. Today is June 15th and 18 the time is 5:58 p.m. The interview is being 19 conducted at 6 West 23rd Street, Deer Park, New 20 York. Also present are DOJ OIG Senior Special 21 Agent Dennis 22 • , and again, 23 these are my credentials. 24 : Uh-huh. 25 : This interview will be EFTA00059673 4 1 recorded by me, Special Agent 2 Could everyone please identify themselves for 3 the record and spell your last name, to start? 4 Again, I am DOJ Special Agent 5 • • 6 : My name is Senior Special 7 Agent 8 9 • : Lieutenant 10 : As I stated before, this is 11 an official DOJ investigation into the death of 12 inmate Jeffery Epstein and the timing 13 surrounding that and you're being asked to 14 voluntarily provide answers to our questions. 15 Will you agree to a voluntary interview with 16 the DOJ OIG? 17 : Yes. 18 : As part of our procedure, I'm 19 going to provide you with DOJ OIG form 3226 20 226-2. I'm going to read the form out loud to 21 you and give you a chance to review it also. 22 "United States Department of Justice, Office of 23 the Inspector General Warnings and Assurances 24 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 25 a Voluntary Basis. You are being asked to EFTA00059674 5 1 provide information as part of an investigation 2 being conducted by the Office of Inspector 3 General. This investigation is being conducted 4 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 5 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 6 performance failure and security failure. This 7 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 8 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 9 action will be taken against you if you choose 10 not to answer any questions. Any statement you 11 furnish may be used as evidence in any future 12 criminal proceedings or agency disciplinary 13 proceeding or both." Now the waiver for you. 14 "I understand the warnings and assurances 15 stated above and I am willing to make a 16 statement and answer questions. No promises or 17 threats have been made to me and no pressure or 18 coercion of any kind has been used against me." 19 Do you understand that? 20 : Uh-huh. 21 : Do you wish to proceed with 22 the interview? 23 : Yeah. 24 : Please review the document 25 and once you review the document, please sign EFTA00059675 6 1 where it says, "Employee signature." 2 : Do you need a pen? 3 : I have. Thank you. 4 : There's a line that says, 5 "Employee signature," -- 6 : Uh-huh. 7 -- and sign your name there 8 and below there can you please print your name? 9 : Thank you sir. 10 : Uh-huh. 11 : I'm signing the signature of 12 the Office of Inspector General's Special 13 Agent. 14 : Thank you for signing the 15 document, both of you, and for dating it 16 6/15/21 at 6:02 p.m. I am signing my name and 17 signature of witness and printing my name, name 18 of witness. 19 : Before we start the 20 interview, I'd like to place you under oath, 21 Can you please raise your right 22 hand? Do you swear to tell the truth and 23 nothing but the truth during this interview? 24 : Yes. 25 : Thank you. EFTA00059676 7 1 : I do. 2 : Please let me know if you do 3 not understand any questions I ask, I'll repeat 4 it and I'll try to rephrase it for you. Okay? 5 What is your current home address? 6 7 8 : Your date of birth? 9 10 : And what is your social 11 security number? 12 : He doesn't need to 13 provide that if he doesn't want to. Would you 14 mind for the record, can you show us your 15 credentials again and then we can use that as 16 verification for your - all right. Thank you, 17 sir, for showing your credentials. I'm looking 18 at the U.S. Department of Justice Federal 19 Bureau of Prisons law enforcement officer 20 credentials, certify that is a 21 Lieutenant at the MCC New York, New York. I 22 see a picture that matches the gentleman that 23 is sitting in front of us. 24 : Thank you. 25 : You're welcome. EFTA00059677 8 1 2 • , what's your highest level of education? 3 : I have a bachelors of science 4 degree. 5 : In what subject? 6 : Community Services. 7 : What college did you receive 8 that from? 9 10 : What year did you receive it? 11 12 • . Okay. What did 13 you do prior to working for the BOP? 14 : I was in the military and I 15 worked in a law firm. 16 : Thank you for your service. 17 What branch of the military? 18 : United States Navy Reserves. 19 : How long were you in the 20 military for? 21 : 20 years, 23 days, and 21 hours 22 or something like that. 23 : What was your position and 24 title when you 25 : I was an E-6 ship service man, EFTA00059678 9 1 first class petty officer. 2 3 the military? 4 And are you still active in : No, I'm retired. 5 : Thank you. 6 : And did you retire in 7 2019? 8 : Yes. 9 : October? 10 : October 2019. 11 : How long have you served with 12 the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 13 : Thirteen years. 14 : Thirteen years? And what was 15 the entry on duty date? 16 - I mean, 17 18 : Did you graduate from BOP 19 training? 20 : Yes. 21 : What year? 22 23 : Okay. When and where was 24 your first office assignment with the BOP? 25 : Brooklyn, MDC Brooklyn. EFTA00059679 10 1 : That was in 2008? 2 : Yes. 3 : And what positions - how long 4 did you stay at the MDC for? 5 6 7 : Five and a half years. : Five and a half? : I stayed there from to 8 9 : Where did you go in October? 10 : MCC New York. 11 : Was it a promotion or 12 lateral? 13 : Lateral. 14 : Okay. When did you get - 15 what was the next step, promotion that you got? 16 : GS-8. 17 : To what position? 18 : MCC New York, Senior Officer 19 Specialist. 20 : And what year was that? 21 : Think, I'm going to say 22 : Okay. And what was the next 23 promotion after that? 24 : GS-9. 25 : GS-9 what? What was the EFTA00059680 11 1 title? 2 : I was a Counselor. 3 : Okay. And after that? 4 : GS-11 Lieutenant. 5 : When did you become a 6 Lieutenant? 7 : I was temp Lieutenant in 2016. 8 Then, I got 2000, I think `17, I got promoted 9 to - '17 or `18 I got promoted to GS-11. 10 : What was your position at the 11 MCC on August 9th and 10th -- 12 : I was a -. 13 : -- of 2019? 14 : I was a Lieutenant. 15 : I'll read it. 16 : Okay. 17 : So we have a - is it 18 correct that you were interviewed already by 19 the FBI and the OIG? 20 : Yes. 21 : Regarding the matter 22 leading up to Epstein's death on August 9th -. 23 : Correct. 24 : Great. Thank you. I'm 25 just going to read the report that was created EFTA00059681 12 1 from that interview. It is an FBI report so I 2 can't physically hand it to you but because the 3 OIG was there, it's our information to ask, 4 that's why I'll be able to read it to you. 5 Just, as I'm reading it, just let me know if 6 there's anything that's inaccurate and then 7 I'll probably stop along the way to just kind 8 of ask for a little bit more collaborations. 9 It says, "Prior to employment with the Bureau 10 of Prisons, was a Paralegal at Skadden Law 11 Firm." 12 Skadden. 13 : Skadden, S-K-A-D-D-E-N. 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : "He worked litigation, 16 pro bono, mergers and acquisitions for 17 approximately 10 years." And was that 18 approximately from 1998 to 2008? 19 : Approximately. 20 : Okay. has also 21 been an enlisted Navy Reservist for the last 20 22 years. was employed as a Corrections 23 Officer with the BOP in at the 24 Metropolitan Detention Center herein after 25 MDC," is that correct? EFTA00059682 13 1 : It was January. 2 : January of 1999? 3 : Where? 4 This is saying that I 5 don't think this was correct. So, it says that 6 you were with the MDC since June of 1999. 7 : I was there - no, not `99, no. 8 : I thought you said in 9 2008 you started. 10 11 not `99. 12 : 2008 I said I started. Yeah, : All right. So you 13 started with the MDC - with the BOP and at the 14 MDC in -- 15 : 2000 -. 16 • 17 Yes. 18 : Okay. transitioned 19 to the BOP Metropolitan Correction Center, or 20 the MCC, on," it says, " 21 : Yes. 22 : "He was later promoted to 23 the rank of Lieutenant on 24 : Yeah, July sometime. 25 : Okay. was the EFTA00059683 14 1 Special Housing Unit, or SHU, Lieutenant for 2 approximately 90 days since Lieutenants rotate 3 throughout the MCC every 90 days." Is that 4 correct? 5 : Uh-huh. 6 : According to , his 7 duties and responsibilities were as follows." 8 So prior to us going on. So you were 90 days 9 up until this incident? Were you just about to 10 rotate out of the SHU then? 11 : No. 12 : Okay. 13 : I was just still the SHU 14 Lieutenant. 15 : So were you -. 16 : So -. 17 : So the way that this 18 reads is almost like you were only there for 90 19 days. Were you there for -- 20 : Yeah. 21 : -- longer than 90 days? 22 : Well, I was taken out because I 23 was out on an injury. 24 : Prior to that though, how 25 long were you the SHU Lieutenant? EFTA00059684 15 1 : Yeah, for about - because we 2 switch. I was on the desk and just before, I 3 think, like program review or something like 4 that, after program review, they put me up 5 there. 6 : All right. But all of 7 July and August of 2000 -- 8 : Yeah, I was - yeah. 9 : -- and `19, so, okay. So 10 you were the SHU Lieutenant for all - at least 11 July and 12 : Uh-huh. 13 14 bit prior. 15 16 : -- August and a little : Yeah. Uh-huh. : So it says, "According to 17 duties and responsibilities are as 18 follows. Control max wing, 10 south and 19 oversee the regular SHU." 20 : Uh-huh. 21 : And 10 south, my 22 understanding is that's the very high profile 23 inmates that have one inmate per cell, there's 24 constant supervision by cameras on them -- 25 : Cameras. EFTA00059685 16 1 : -- at all times? 2 : Uh-huh. 3 : Okay. Maybe like 4 terrorists? 5 : Uh-huh. 6 : People that go into those 7 - okay. You supervise employees, you control 8 moves, you oversee segregation reviews 9 hereinafter referred to as SROs. "Ensure 10 inmates are given what they have coming." What 11 does that mean? "Ensure inmate -. 12 : That means, whatever the 13 institution - if they have - they need soap, 14 they get soap. If they need toilet paper, they 15 get toilet paper. If they need a pen, pad to 16 write on, they get it. 17 : So the supplies that 18 they're 19 : Supplies that they -- 20 •-- required, you ensure - 21 - 22 : -- that - I ensure that they -. 23 : -- that they receive what 24 they -- 25 : Yes. EFTA00059686 17 1 2 3 : -- what they require. : Uh-huh. : Okay. And then the next 4 thing that they wrote was, "A lot." So I'm 5 assuming what they meant is you have a lot of 6 responsibilities. 7 : Yes. 8 is generally the 9 Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m. 10 shift supervisor." 11 : Yes. 12 : Were you working a lot of 13 overtime there? 14 : Yes. 15 And when you were doing 16 your OT, were you also in the SHU? 17 : Yes. 18 : Okay. Would that be 19 : Because as the Operations 20 Lieutenant, you've got to go to Special 21 Housing. 22 : Okay. So if you were 23 doing OT, you weren't necessarily the SHU 24 Lieutenant, you were the Operations Lieutenant 25 EFTA00059687 18 1 : No. 2 : -- you were the 3 Operations Lieutenant, but you covered the SHU. 4 : Or activities, yes. 5 : So you were - you would - 6 . 7 : So. 8 : So during your OT shifts, 9 you typically would do either Activities or 10 Operations Lieutenant? 11 : Yes. 12 : And were you doing that 13 almost on like a daily basis up until then? 14 : Something like that. Uh-huh. 15 : And would it typically be 16 like the morning watch or the evening watch or 17 -. 18 : Any shift. 19 : Any? 20 : Yes. 21 : Was a lot of it mandated 22 or voluntary or both? 23 : It was - I mean, it was short, 24 so, you know. 25 : Like, like, like EFTA00059688 19 1 forbidding, you've served as both Activities 2 and the Ops -- 3 : Uh-huh. 4 : -- Lieutenant, so you're 5 familiar with those duties and 6 responsibilities, correct? 7 : Yes. 8 : Great. 9 : Uh-huh. 10 : All right. So, " 11 advised that there is a mandatory quarterly 12 training in the SHU program for BOP employees." 13 Now, have you ever conducted that training? 14 : Yes. 15 : You've participated? 16 : Uh-huh. 17 : Okay, great. And do you 18 know of the individuals that were working in 19 the SHU for their quarterly assignments had 20 also received that training at the time? 21 : Some have received that 22 training. 23 : Possibly not all? 24 : But possibly not all. 25 : Okay. EFTA00059689 20 1 : But if they didn't, you know, 2 we went around and we showed them, you know, 3 showed them training. 4 : Okay. So anybody that 5 hadn't gone 6 : So -- 7 : -- to that training -. 8 people that was assigned 9 that were supposed to be there, went to the 10 training. 11 : Okay. 12 : And if they didn't go for 13 whatever reason, if they was out sick or 14 whatever, I tried to get them trained, you 15 know, give them the PowerPoint and go over the 16 training with them, you know, hands on. 17 : Now, are you the person 18 that would present the training at the 19 quarterly training? 20 : Yes. 21 : Okay. So as the -. 22 : Normally the SHU Lieutenant 23 does. 24 : Okay. So you provided 25 probably the last quarterly training and then EFTA00059690 21 1 anyone who didn't attend that training, you 2 provided them personal training yourself? 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. 5 : But I don't know if I did it. 6 The prior SHU Lieutenant probably gave the 7 training. 8 : Okay. Had you done it in 9 the past? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : "He also reviews 292 14 forms which track an inmate's meals, 15 recreation, medical attention and showers." Is 16 that like the forms that go into their 17 personnel file? 18 : Yes. Uh-huh. 19 : And those files in the 20 SHU, they're kept in the SHU? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. 23 : The on the computer - they're 24 supposed to be printed out every week -- 25 : Okay. EFTA00059691 22 1 : -- because you've got to go 2 backwards. 3 : And as I'm told, they're 4 printed out on Sundays? 5 : Yes. They're supposed to be 6 printed out like on Sunday morning watch. 7 : Okay. 8 : Put into the file and, you 9 know, because it's a new week. The new week -- 10 : Uh-huh. 11 is going to start because 12 that morning is breakfast. So it's breakfast, 13 and it goes B-D - wait, how does it go, 14 breakfast, lunch, dinner, so it goes B-L-D. 15 So, breakfast is first at 6 o'clock, or, you 16 know, 5:44, whatever time the count cleared is 17 breakfast. And then, lunch and then dinner. 18 : Okay. So you said on 19 Sundays, is there typically one person that 20 works on Sundays or is it -- 21 : No, it's 22 : -- whoever is working -- 23 : -- always -. 24 : -- on that side? 25 : It's always - yeah. It's EFTA00059692 23 1 always supposed to be two up there -- 2 3 4 : Okay. : -- on - on -. : But it's not like 5 typically the same two is what I'm asking? 6 : Yeah, no. 7 : Okay. 8 : Huh-uh. 9 : So it's whoever is 10 working that shift -- 11 : Whoever is working. 12 : -- on a Sunday. 13 : Yeah. Hopefully, you know, 14 well, we had a steady OIC, but he got out, he 15 got injured and was out sick, so, you know, 16 it's by the luck of the draw, whoever is 17 available. 18 : Okay. So who was the 19 officer in charge or OIC who got injured? 20 : For morning watch, I don't 21 know. 22 : No, no, no, who got 23 injured, who got out? 24 : Oh, it was Collado (Phonetic 25 Sp. *00:17:46), I think it was, but he was - EFTA00059693 24 1 yeah, he was out. 2 : And about when did he go 3 out? 4 : I don't remember. 5 : All right. But in 6 August, do you remember if there was an OIC? 7 : I don't remember. 8 : You don't remember? 9 Sure. 10 : I have to look at the roster - 11 I don't -. 12 : Absolutely. Do you have 13 the rosters? Just when we ask some of these 14 questions, you might want to just be able to 15 kind of look at this to be able to kind of 16 refresh your memory. 17 : Uh-huh. 18 : And so, Special Agent 19 is giving you, or I will be giving you 20 the - one is going to be the duty assignment 21 roster from August 9th and the other one is 22 going to be from August 10th. 23 : Uh-huh. 24 : I'm sure you're familiar 25 with these. EFTA00059694 25 1 : Uh-huh. 2 : Sure. So you'll be able 3 to like if -- 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : -- the SHU is towards the 6 bottom and then who was on duty. It'll show 7 you the Ops, you know, the Ops Lieutenant and 8 the Activities Lieutenant, so on and so forth. 9 All right. So, it says, "Every SHU inmate has 10 an associated 292 form as long as they are in 11 the SHU population." 12 : Uh-huh. 13 : "Once they rotate to 14 another population, the form is invalid and no 15 longer exists." Now, what does that mean? Do 16 they destroy the forms? 17 : No. So what happens is, okay, 18 the way the program operates is, once you come 19 out of the SHU program, like say for instance, 20 if you key to suicide watch area, your original 21 form, or whatever form, is, if it didn't get 22 printed, if there's a form there, but that 23 stops, the time stops. 24 : You mean they create a 25 new form for every housing unit you go into is EFTA00059695 26 1 what you're saying. 2 : No. Only 292s are in the 3 Special Housing Unit, it's not 4 • Okay. 5 : -- in general population. 6 : Okay. So is there -- 7 : So 8 : -- one in suicide watch 9 and -. 10 : No. 11 : No. 12 : On suicide watch, there's 13 booklets and there's - it says, there's a form 14 where it shows, did the inmate eat? Did the 15 inmate, you know, get a shower? Like that. 16 : Okay. But what does it 17 mean when it says that they wrote, "Once they 18 rotate to another population the form is 19 invalid and no longer exists?" Are they 20 referring -. 21 : Is not in the program. They're 22 not in the program so I cannot -. 23 : It doesn't continue. 24 : It doesn't continue, yeah. 25 : But it doesn't, like, get EFTA00059696 27 1 destroyed, it remains -- 2 3 4 : No. : -- in their file. : If it gets printed. 5 : But it -. 6 : But, like, say - once they come 7 off the SHU program, right? I mean, you could 8 go back and see if the individual was there. 9 But once they come off the program, I cannot 10 create a document for you. 11 : Sure. So are the 12 documents maintained electronically? 13 : It's a program, so I don't - as 14 long as you in the SHU program, in the roster, 15 because SENTRY and BOPWare talk to each other. 16 Right? And so what happens is if a person is 17 keyed into SHU, there's a little box you have 18 to press. 19 : Uh-huh. 20 : In BOPWare, and it's 21 timestamped. So, once that person is there, it 22 creates an AD order, administrative detention 23 order. Once that administrative detention 24 order is set, the Lieutenant writes in there 25 why the individual was placed in Special EFTA00059697 28 1 Housing -- 2 : Uh-huh. 3 has to be a reason. If that 4 form is not filled out, the Captain gets an 5 email from the region saying there's a blank AD 6 order in here, right? So I used to go in there 7 and look every morning to see if somebody, 8 whoever got placed in Special Housing to see 9 what the charges was or if that form was filled 10 out. 11 : Okay. 12 : If that form wasn't filled out, 13 I look at the Lieutenant's log or I call the 14 Lieutenant, whoever, you know, "Why did this 15 inmate get locked up?" Normally when I do my 16 rounds, I ask the inmates, "Why are you up 17 here?" Some of them lie and they, "I don't 18 know why I'm up here," whatever. But then I 19 find out why they up there, then I know why. 20 It could be SIS investigation, it could be 21 because of a fight. 22 : Sure. 23 : It could be multiple reasons 24 why the AD order wasn't created. However, we 25 try to create and do the AD order to place the EFTA00059698 29 1 inmate so that he can have a 292 and he'd be on 2 the SHU report. 3 : So what I'm asking though 4 is -- 5 : Uh-huh. 6 -- once it's created, 7 once they're there and once this 292 is 8 created, even if it's not printed out, is it 9 maintained in the system? 10 : Yes. 11 : And is it ever deleted? 12 : No. 13 : So that's what I'm 14 asking. So when this says, "Ceases to exist," 15 I just want to make sure, is once they leave 16 the SHU, it's not deleted. It's still always 17 going to exist in a file. 18 : I mean, long - you've got a 19 register number, you could go back, but I don't 20 know how long the program, you could go back 21 and forth to pull a 292. 22 : Okay. 23 : You know, once the person is 24 out of SHU. You know, some forms you can go 25 back and you can pull it. EFTA00059699 30 1 : Okay. 2 : But it'll stop at the day that 3 that person was released or, you know, placed 4 in another housing unit. 5 : Okay. Now, people that 6 are in the SHU and get placed in another 7 housing unit, the papers that were printed out, 8 what is done with those? 9 : Those goes to the unit team. 10 : Okay. So that goes, if 11 they went to a different housing unit, it goes 12 -- 13 : It goes to the -- 14 : -- to the unit. 15 : -- unit team and the mailbox, 16 their file, you know, it tells you on the 17 thing, "Copy to unit team for central file." 18 : Okay. 19 : And it goes into their - 20 supposed to go into their folder. 21 : But it's not destroyed 22 either? 23 : No. 24 : Okay. 25 : Huh-uh. EFTA00059700 31 1 : It says, "Medical 2 personnel visit the SHU twice a day for rounds 3 in the mornings and the evenings." And it that 4 every day? 5 : Yes. 6 : So - on weekends too? 7 : Yes. 8 : So medical personnel 9 visit the SHU two times a day, okay. 10 : Two - twice per shift, yes. 11 : Around when do they 12 usually show up? Is there -. 13 : Depends. Sometimes they there 14 at, you know, 7 o'clock, 6 o'clock in the 15 morning and then, again, they come up after the 16 4 o'clock count or they might come up before 17 that. 18 : Okay. 19 : You know, when shift changes. 20 : But they actually 21 participate in the rounds? 22 : Yes. 23 : Okay. regularly 24 audits 292 forms from the previous day." So 25 you'd be constantly seeing, making sure your EFTA00059701 32 1 staff are doing what they're supposed to be 2 doing -- 3 : Uh-huh. 4 : -- with those forms? 5 Okay. " advised that accountability of 6 inmates is important. He never caught anyone 7 intentionally not doing their job. also 8 reviews round forms and searches for red flags. 9 These could be missing spaces, missing 10 signatures, etcetera. If caught, 11 approaches the individual and requests an 12 explanation." So have you ever caught someone 13 then not doing rounds or -- 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : -- anyone that was 16 working on that day - on August 9th or 10th 17 that was working in the SHU? Did you ever have 18 to discuss this matter with any of those 19 individuals? 20 : Naw. 21 : There's no one in there 22 that you can - that were working on either day? 23 : Not that I know of, no. 24 : Okay. Can you think of 25 anyone that you did ever have to deal with for EFTA00059702 33 1 not conducting rounds or counts? 2 : On day watch, you know, we 3 would ask, "You're doing showers, we down 4 range, we doing this." It gots to get filled 5 out after, you know, that -. 6 : But can you think of 7 anyone that you actually had to - that you 8 caught not doing it? Or I should say, your 9 last day at work was on August 8th. Who was 10 the last person you caught not conducting 11 rounds in the -- 12 : Oh, I don't remember. 13 : SHU? You don't? 14 : I don't remember. 15 : Okay. That's fine. 16 : No, sir. 17 : But you don't believe it 18 was any of the people that were working? 19 : No. 20 : Okay. was the SHU 21 Lieutenant when Epstein was assigned. Epstein 22 wasn't originally in the SHU. advised 23 Epstein was in 10 South Lower." 24 : Uh-huh. 25 : "The population is for EFTA00059703 34 1 inmates not on 10 South but high-profile." 2 Okay, so this is the first. There's two 3 different 10 Souths? 4 : No. There's 10 South, then 5 there's 10 South Lower. 6 : What's 10 South Lower? 7 I don't know -. 8 : G Tier. 9 : Okay. 10 : All right? G Tier has four 11 cells where you can put high-profile or 12 terrorist inmates if 10 South is full. 13 : Okay. 14 : 10 South only holds a maximum 15 of six inmates. 16 : So was he originally 17 going to go to 10 South then and was changed 18 : Oh, I don't know. 19 : So -. 20 : When I got there, he was on G 21 Tier. 22 : Okay. So I thought you 23 just said that 10 South Lower is for people 24 that were going if 10 South was full. 25 : They can put you on the Tier, EFTA00059704 35 1 but they put a lot of - they put disruptive 2 inmates on that tier. 3 : Okay. 4 : So it's not up to me, it's up 5 to that shift Lieutenant. 6 : Sure. 7 : But, if the Captain or somebody 8 or, you know, the Warden or somebody, "Hey, put 9 that guy on G Tier then that's where he's 10 going," that's where that individual will go. 11 That's where he will be housed if that 12 individual was disruptive or anything like 13 that. 14 : And do you how long he 15 was on 10 South Lower approximately? 16 : I don't know. 17 : Was it a long time? 18 : I don't know. 19 : You don't know? 20 : Like, when he - I guess, you 21 know, when he got there to the institution, he 22 23 24 25 was put on - he was on G Tier. : G Tier is 10 South Lower? : Yes. : Okay. Is 10 South Lower EFTA00059705 36 1 2 3 similar to 10 South in the sense that it's one inmate per cell? : Yes. 4 : And are there cameras in 5 those -. 6 : Yes. 7 : All right, so it's set up 8 pretty much the same way as 10 South? 9 : Yes. 10 : So he was never placed in 11 the general population. 12 : I don't think so. 13 : Okay. So when he came 14 in, you believe he was first put on 10 South 15 Lower and then transferred to the SHU. 16 : Yes. i7 : Okay. And you had 18 oversight -- 19 : When -. 20 : -- though -. 21 : When - when -. 22 : You have oversight over - 23 - 24 : When he was -. 25 : -- 10 South. EFTA00059706 37 1 : When he was moved off of G 2 Tier, if that's the question you're asking me, 3 and placed with a bunkie, that didn't come from 4 me. 5 : Sure. Who does - so, did 6 you supervise both 10 South, 10 South Lower and 7 the regular SHU? 8 : Yeah, and the regular SHU, yes. 9 : Okay. And is that all 10 the same 11 : That's all the same. 12 : -- kind of unit? 13 : Uh-huh. 14 : Okay. 15 : It's one big unit. 16 : Okay. 17 : Upstairs is a separate unit 18 because it's not on - only unit that's 10 South 19 Lower is in the Special Housing Unit. 20 : Okay. So that's 21 : It's on the Special Housing 22 Unit count. 23 : So your understanding 24 though is Epstein was always somewhere in that 25 unit, in 10 - the SHU unit. EFTA00059707 38 1 2 3 4 regular SHU. : : Yes. : Whether lower or just Yes. 5 : Okay. 6 : I got a - just one -- 7 : Uh-huh. 8 : You just mentioned - you said 9 that the G Tier, the 10 South Lower, is always 10 part of the SHU count. 11 : Yes. 12 : So is that ZA or ZB? 13 : ZA. 14 ZA. Okay. 15 : Uh-huh. 16 : ZA or -. 17 : ZB is 10 South. 18 : So ZA was the whole 19 thing. 20 : No. 21 : Oh, can we have you look 22 at these counts then, just for clarification? 23 : It should be - look - if you 24 look at - if you pull up the document for the 25 El that you just flipped by. EFTA00059708 39 1 2 3 4 : got ZA and ZB. : Yeah. Okay? You look at the El, it ZB has the shorter count. : So ZA says - so I'm 5 looking at the count from 8/9/2015, the time on 6 it shows 1541, so I guess it's the 3:00 p.m. 7 There is no 3:00 p.m. 8 : 4:00 p.m. 9 : 4:00 p.m. count? 10 : Yeah. That was actually when 11 it was created. 12 : It shows for ZA, there 13 were 75, for ZE it says 5. 14 : Yes. ZB is always shorter. 15 : So what I was saying, 16 isn't the 75 count the entire SHU? 17 : It's ZA. 18 : Not -. 19 : It's not - 10 South is not 20 included because 10 South is a separate unit. 21 : Right. 22 : The G Tier is part of ZA -- 23 : Correct. 24 : -- not ZE. 25 : So that's what we were EFTA00059709 40 1 asking -- 2 3 : Yes, yes. : -- is that ZA - the 10 4 South Lower is incorporated with the whole of 5 the regular SHU. 6 : ZA, yes. 7 : And ZB is just 10 South. 8 : Yes. 9 : Right. "Epstein was 10 assigned to cell 201 in the SHU. During their 11 first - okay, is that correct? 12 : I guess. I don't know. 13 : "During their first 14 encounter, Epstein asked `Am I going to 15 get out of here?' remembers Epstein 16 frequenting the attorney conference area for 17 long periods of time." Is it true that at 18 almost - while he was assigned to the SHU was 19 just about every day he was in the - he would 20 go to the attorney area? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. advised that 23 at one point during the beginning at a meeting 24 with MCC Executive Management, they wanted to 25 house Epstein with a bunkie. doesn't EFTA00059710 41 1 recall exactly who requested this action, 2 however, he remembers they were trying to 3 identify an inmate. Ultimately, they decided 4 to house Epstein with Tartaglione. wasn't 5 asked for his input and followed Executive 6 Management orders. There was an instant on 7 7/23/2019 between the two but it didn't occur 8 on shift. He heard about it the next 9 day. completed the 583 10 packet which includes memos and photos 11 resulting from the incident." So although you 12 weren't there, were you familiar with what 13 happened or had -. 14 : I'm a Lieutenant, so I have to 15 know. 16 : So were - did you hear 17 anything about him either trying to commit 18 suicide or his cell mate attempting to kill 19 him? 20 : I don't recall. 21 : So what is it that you 22 recall from it? 23 : I just know I - you know, you 24 read in this day chart that he tried to hang 25 himself and I looked at the 583, I looked at EFTA00059711 42 1 the pictures, saw the pictures. 2 : So your understanding -- 3 4 : -- was that he tried to 5 hang himself. 6 : Yes. 7 : Had you -. 8 : And his bunkie, you know, I 9 guess called out or whatever. They went - 10 they, you know, or 11 whatever, she did what she had to do. He was 12 on suicide watch the next day and, you know, 13 that was pretty much it. 14 : And what -. 15 : You know, I don't recall 16 everything, you know, it's - I - you read it 17 briefly, but I was -. 18 : So, do you know what 19 happened with his cell mate? Did he remain in 20 the SHU? 21 : Yeah. 22 : Did he get placed with 23 another cell mate? 24 : Oh, I don't remember. 25 : Are inmates in the SHU EFTA00059712 43 1 required to have cellmates when they're in the 2 SHU? 3 : Yes. However, there's 4 exceptions because some of them you can't house 5 them with nobody. 6 : And is that because they 7 would get harmed if they were housed with 8 someone? 9 : Yes. 10 : And is that what - is 11 that part of what 10 South Lower is for or is 12 that - it's just regular SHU, the inmates know? 13 : Just like some have on their 14 door, "Housing rec alone," because they could 15 have multiple steps. Some of them, you know, 16 they could be fear for their life. You always, 17 you know, you have that, but we try to bunk up 18 everybody. 19 : All right, so aside from 20 these special exceptions, inmates are supposed 21 to have -. 22 : Yeah, we try to bunk everybody 23 up. Yeah. 24 : Now is that policy or 25 just a decision that was made? EFTA00059713 44 1 : No, that's something that, you 2 know, from when I started at the Bureau, we did 3 that, because once you knew individuals receive 4 - you can't - policy states that you're not 5 supposed to have an AD, Administrative 6 Detention person and a person that's under 7 disciplinary segregation together, housed 8 together. It's supposed to be separate. 9 : Okay. 10 : That's the policy that they 11 that's 5270, you know, point whatever the new 12 number is, 9 or 10, right, the SHU program 13 statement. When Psychology says that this 14 person tried to harm themselves, we make sure 15 that they have to have a bunkie. So, you know, 16 they have a companion or somebody in there that 17 they could talk to so that, you know, they 18 don't feel despondent, you know. SHU is a 19 place, you know, if you don't check on these 20 inmates, you know, they're going to remind you. 21 : Right. 22 : So, you know, you've got to 23 make rounds, you've got to check on - be 24 checking on these inmates. You've got to be 25 seeing what they're doing, you know. It's a EFTA00059714 45 1 tough place. 2 : Yeah. 3 : You know. 4 : So, inmates that aren't a 5 special situation should have a cell mate and 6 especially inmates that are coming back from 7 suicide watch -- 8 : Yes. 9 : -- they, in particular, 10 should have a 11 : Should have a cell mate. Yeah. 12 : Okay. It says, "- 13 recalls interaction with Epstein on watch. 14 Epstein stated, `I don't want to be here and 15 I'm going to hurt myself.'" He said that to 16 you? 17 : I don't recall saying that. 18 : All right. So again, it 19 says, " recalls interacting with Epstein on 20 watch. Epstein stated, `I don't want to be 21 here and I'm going to hurt myself.'" 22 : I'm -. 23 : You don't believe that's 24 accurate? 25 : I'm not going to hurt myself. EFTA00059715 46 1 : Oh, not going to hurt -. 2 : Oh, no, sorry, "I'm not - 3 - 4 : Okay. 5 : -- going to hurt myself." 6 : I don't remember him saying 7 that. 8 : So, okay, so did he say 9 that, "I don't want to be here and I'm not 10 going to hurt myself?" 11 : Yeah, he said that to me. 12 : He did tell you that? 13 : Yeah. 14 : Okay. 15 : But a lot of inmates say that, 16 you know, "Oh, I'm not going to hurt myself." 17 They look you right in your face and like, 18 "Yeah, and those markings on your neck say 19 something totally different." 20 : So would have that -- 21 : But -. 22 •-- would have he said 23 this to you after he came back from suicide 24 watch -- 25 : Yeah. EFTA00059716 47 1 2 3 : -- the second time -- : Yeah. : I'm assuming? 4 : I mean, because I escorted him 5 to attorney conference, you know, I'm the one 6 I had interactions with him, you know, he 7 talked to me or whatever, you know. No special 8 privileges, you know. But I treated him like I 9 treat anybody else, as a decent human being. 10 : Okay. Was he telling you 11 this though so that he wouldn't be housed with 12 another inmate? 13 : I don't think that. 14 15 SHU? 16 : Yes, he wanted to get out of 17 SHU. 18 : And where did he want to 19 go? 20 : He wanted to go, I guess, to 21 general population. 22 : Did he ever say that 23 that's where he wanted to go? 24 : Yeah. 25 : He did? : Did he want to get of the EFTA00059717 48 1 : Uh-huh. 2 : He said he wanted to go 3 to general pop? 4 : Uh-huh. 5 : Okay. It says, " 6 also remembers feeding Epstein. The BOP 7 psychologist said that Epstein must be housed 8 with a cell mate when he returned to the SHU." 9 And this is after the July 23rd incident? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. So, he came back 12 to the SHU, do you recall, around like July 13 30th? 14 : When he - whatever day he came 15 back to the SHU, he came back. 16 : And then that -- 17 : And -. 18 : -- around that date is 19 when the psychologist said he's got to be 20 housed with a cell mate? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. provided 23 cell mate recommendations but they were still 24 deciding on an individual when left the 25 institution that night. called to ensure EFTA00059718 49 1 that he received a bunkie. BOP decision makers 2 chose Efrain Reyes." 3 : Yes. 4 • ` remembers Epstein 5 requesting to make a phone call to his 6 daughter. doesn't do phone calls because 7 he is unaware of every inmates restricted 8 contact list." 9 : Yeah. I don't make phone 10 calls. 11 : Okay. 12 : That's the unit team. 13 : All right. We're going 14 to go back to Reyes. 15 : Or if somebody tells me I have 16 to make it directly - my direct supervisor 17 says, "Hey, give this guy a telephone call," 18 then that's something totally different. 19 : All right. So after - so 20 you said around July 30 -- 21 : Uh-huh. 22 : -- 2019, you were 23 informed by psychology, " needs a cell 24 mate," correct? 25 needs a cell mate? EFTA00059719 50 1 2 a cell mate." 3 : No, sorry, "Epstein needs Yeah. They sent an email, 4 something or -. 5 : Right. And -. 6 : I know the Captain and the 7 warden, they was like, "He has to have a cell 8 mate." 9 : And told you that? 10 : Yeah. 11 : And then what did you do 12 with that information? Did you provide it to 13 everybody that work in the SHU? 14 : Yes. 15 : All right, now, can you 16 tell me a little bit about how did the people 17 that work in the SHU know that Epstein was 18 required to have a cell mate? 19 : Okay. I passed it on to my 20 0IC, which was 21 : And can you - do you know 22 how to spell that name? It might be on there. 23 : It's - I do know how to 24 spell it, he's my friend. 25 EFTA00059720 51 1 : Is it 2 3 : Is it 4 : Yeah, something like that, 5 yeah. 6 : Okay. So, 7 : I don't know the spelling for 8 sure. 9 10 : I should know how to spell his 11 name, I just got brain fart. 12 : Okay. So if you told 13 him, did you tell anyone else directly? 14 : No, I spoke to him. He's the 15 one that, you know, he was on the desk. 16 : And then, did you inform 17 others though that were in there, that, A, 18 Epstein needs a bunk mate? Cell mate? I mean, 19 not talking about this a special time, I'm just 20 saying like, were they aware? 21 : I spoke to him. If I call you, 22 then you pass along that information. I spoke 23 to , he wrote it down, I verified it. 24 The next day when I came to work, he had a 25 bunkie. EFTA00059721 52 1 : Yeah, yeah. 2 : The bunkie was there and we had 3 postings up around, "This individual needs a 4 bunkie." 5 : Okay. Great. Can you 6 speak to me a little about that? 7 : Okay. 8 : You said there were 9 postings within the SHU that -. 10 : On the door, on the desk, on 11 the OIC desk, there was - I believe there was 12 postings that he was supposed to have a bunkie. 13 : So on the OI 14 : It was written. 15 : On the OIC desk, there 16 was a - or what door was there a sign? 17 : On his cell door. 18 : So Epstein's cell door, 19 there was a posting saying, "Epstein is 20 required to have a cell mate?" 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. And do you know 23 who - if that - did that remain up until you 24 left on August 8th? 25 : No, because he was on suicide EFTA00059722 53 1 watch. Then it was taken off. He was placed 2 with Reyes, and was in the cell, so I don't 3 recall - after I left that day, I don't know 4 what, you know - everything was in place. 5 : Yeah, no, what I'm saying 6 is that prior to leaving, I'm wondering if the 7 people that worked in the SHU, because 8 obviously as you know Reyes left on the 9th and 9 you weren't there. 10 : Uh-huh. 11 : But did the people that 12 were in there - I want to know if the people 13 who were in the SHU 14 : My crew, whoever worked - we 15 had a skinless crew. You could see who worked 16 day watch. 17 : Sure. 18 : Right? You can see who worked 19 evening watch. Okay? The people that were 20 there August 9th, I can't, you know, vouch for. 21 Okay? But everybody knew that was part of the 22 SHU crew -- 23 : Okay. So can you look at 24 -. 25 : -- and not everybody on this EFTA00059723 54 1 list was, you know, is - these is fill ins. 2 It's not their assigned post. 3 : So can you tell me who on 4 the SHU day watch crew of August 9th, who was a 5 regular and who would have known that he was 6 required to have a cell mate? 7 was there, he knows. 8 He worked - he was SHU 3. knew, he was 9 Rec Specialist. knew. 10 : Who is 11 , he's the number one. 12 : So who then on that 13 didn't know? Or you don't know if they know. 14 : I don't know. I mean, 15 everybody - once the OIC knows and the crew, 16 everybody -. 17 : So is it kind of like the 18 military? You're the officer, you tell your 19 head Sergeant, "Make sure everybody knows 20 this," that Sergeant is then therefore 21 responsible for telling everyone else? 22 : Yes. 23 : So, do you recall having 24 conversations with these people as well though? 25 : No, because they don't - EFTA00059724 55 1 everybody -. 2 : So it's 3 I spoke - the day that he was 4 required to have a bunkie, I spoke to -. 5 : Sure. 6 took care of it from 7 there. All I know, when I came in, I checked, 8 he had a bunkie, that was it. 9 : And I understand this. 10 But what 11 : And so, I cannot explain for 12 another shift. I cannot explain - only could 13 tell what did. I don't know what anybody 14 else did after I left. I don't know. I cannot 15 answer that. 16 : Right. So like you were 17 saying, he was housed with a bunkie on July 18 30th. What we're asking is that between July 19 30th and between August 9th, the days that you 20 were there, were you conversing with these 21 people to remind them that he was required to 22 have a cell -. 23 : It wasn't nothing to talk about 24 because everybody knew. He wasn't by his self, 25 so he has a bunkie so -. EFTA00059725 56 1 : Right. But isn't it true 2 that the - at the MCC, inmates are constantly 3 coming in and out? It's more of a jail than a 4 prison? 5 : Yes. But one thing don't have 6 nothing to do with - if we're working every day 7 together, I don't - why am I keep telling you 8 the same thing every day? I don't have to tell 9 you your job to what you're supposed to do 10 every day. I've got to keep reminding you to 11 feed? I have a billion other things to do. 12 : But - but -. 13 : So what you're saying to me, I 14 cannot answer that because I don't know. 15 : So, what we're asking is 16 did you have conversations with anyone on those 17 other days about the reminder that Epstein is 18 required to have a cell mate? 19 : I had a conversation with the 20 crew and I don't keep repeating myself. He has 21 a bunkie. Every day I come in, I check, he's 22 got a bunkie. What is there to talk about? If 23 it's way down 24 : What we're asking is -. 25 : I don't know - I don't under-. EFTA00059726 57 1 : You're saying that you 2 had a conversation with the one man who was the 3 Officer in Charge. What I'm asking you is, did 4 you have a conversation with anyone else aside 5 from him? Between July 30th and August 9th, 6 did you have any conversations 7 : I don't recall. 8 : -- with anyone -- 9 : I don't recall. 10 : -- other than the Officer 11 in Charge. 12 : I don't recall. 13 : Okay. So you said that 14 there was a sticky that was on the door. Was 15 the sticky only on the door on July 30th or did 16 it remain on the door from July 30th to August 17 8th? 18 : It remained up there, it was on 19 the desk. 20 : Okay. 21 : A big sign that said, "Epstein 22 is supposed to have a bunkie," on the desk, on 23 the officer's station. 24 : And that stayed on there 25 throughout -. EFTA00059727 58 1 : I guess, I don't know. It - 2 all I know, when I left, everything was in 3 place. I'm not there right now. Things could 4 change. I don't know. I cannot answer that. 5 : What Agent Dennis is asking 6 is -. 7 : Where were you sitting 8 when you were in the SHU? Is there a special 9 place for you? 10 : I sit in like on next to 10 11 South. 12 : Okay. So are you not 13 with the correctional officers? 14 : No. 15 : All right. And how -. 16 : I come down, I make rounds. 17 : So you're not sure if - 18 so you know that on July 30th there was this 19 Posted = note saying that Epstein required a 20 cell -- 21 : Yes. 22 : -- cell mate. Are what 23 you're saying is that you don't know if that 24 sticky note stayed on that after he was issued 25 some -. EFTA00059728 59 1 : It was there when I was up 2 there on the 8th. 3 : That was my question. 4 Okay. 5 : Yeah. It was something was 6 written -- 7 : So -. 8 : -- that Epstein should have a 9 bunkie. It was something on the desk, yes, 10 there was something there. 11 : And that was the 12 question. 13 : On the 8th. 14 : So, on August - so from 15 July 30th basically to August 8th there was 16 something on the desk saying, "Epstein is 17 required to have a cell mate." 18 : Yes. 19 : Perfect. 20 : Oh, okay. 21 : Okay. And is that the 22 same thing for the sticky that was on the door? 23 : I don't recall. 24 : The door your don't 25 recall. That's fine. EFTA00059729 60 1 : Uh-huh. 2 : Now, does everybody have 3 access to that desk? Would everyone 4 : Yes. 5 : -- that works in the SHU 6 -- 7 : Yes. 8 : -- would they see? 9 : Yes. 10 : So everyone would see 11 that there's a sticky note -- 12 : Right there, yes. 13 -- right there on the 14 : Uh-huh. 15 • • Officer in Charge's 16 desk saying, "Epstein is required to have a 17 bunk mate." 18 : Uh-huh. 19 : Therefore, most everybody 20 in the SHU should know because they should see. 21 And now, are there a lot of sticky notes? 22 : No. 23 : So -. 24 : That one, I think - I forget, 25 maybe it was done on colored paper. It was - I EFTA00059730 61 1 know it was on the desk and it was on the 2 bulletin, you know -- 3 : Got a bulletin board? 4 : -- right there. Yeah. 5 : Okay. 6 : On, like on the wall, like 7 right there. It was there. So, but, like I 8 said, you know, up until the time I left, I 9 don't know. 10 : Yeah, I understand that 11 you don't -- 12 : And -. 13 : -- know what happened -- 14 : And - and -. 15 : -- after you left. 16 : And the crews change, right? 17 We're very short on correctional workers. 18 We're very short. Sometimes it was just me up 19 there. I'm quite sure you all looked at all of 20 these rosters. Sometimes it was just me and 21 and 22 : Sure. And I'm just 23 trying to get - I'm just trying to understand. 24 : So, I don't remember 25 conversations, daily conversations that I had EFTA00059731 62 1 with people every, you know, day. All right? 2 We knew, the Lieutenants knew, everybody knew, 3 you know, you come from suicide watch, you have 4 a bunkie. 5 : Right. So is everybody 6 that's working the - should everyone that's 7 working in the SHU should they know that? 8 : Yes. 9 : Should everyone that was 10 working in the SHU known that - if Epstein's 11 cell mate was removed, he should be housed with 12 a bunkie? 13 : Yes. 14 : Right. Okay. 15 : Yes. 16 : So -. 17 : But, however, you don't know if 18 he's been removed. We don't know. 19 : Once it's told. So once 20 they find out Reyes is gone, he's not coming 21 back -. 22 : He should have had a bunkie. 23 : And should have the SHU, 24 people that were working there known? 25 : They know - EFTA00059732 63 1 : They knew, "We need to 2 tell the Lieutenant," - not you. 3 : Yeah. 4 : "We need to tell whoever 5 the Lieutenant is on duty, the Ops Lieutenant, 6 the Activities Lieutenant," whoever is their 7 chain of command, "We've got to let them know 8 Reyes is gone, he needs a bunkie." 9 : Yeah, he needs a bunkie, yeah. 10 : Okay. So that's how it 11 should have happened and the people that were 12 there should have done that. And I'm not 13 saying that they didn't. I'm just asking if 14 that's what they should have done. 15 : I guess. Yeah. 16 : Could those people that 17 were working in the SHU, did they have the 18 authority to be able to reassign Epstein a 19 bunkie? 20 : Yes. 21 : So -. 22 : Until the next day or whatever, 23 yeah, everybody has - can do - any officer can 24 do that. 25 : So even with Epstein, EFTA00059733 64 1 they could have just put somebody in there? 2 : No, you've got to check first. 3 : So who -- 4 : You've got to -. 5 : -- would have they 6 checked with? 7 : You check and see if he - you 8 know, if he has a separation from this person, 9 you see if this person - you look at their file 10 and you look at 11 : So they check in the 12 system to see if there's any kind of warnings 13 or -- 14 : Uh-huh. 15 : -- issues -. 16 : Predators or anything like 17 that. 18 : Sure, but do they need to 19 check with a Lieutenant first before -. 20 : No, they can check, any 21 officer, they have access. 22 : Okay. 23 : And if they don't, they should 24 call the Lieutenant and say, "Hey, LT, such and 25 such," yeah. EFTA00059734 65 1 : Okay. So were they - but 2 because I'm assuming as you know, and I don't 3 think we discussed this, that - oh, we did