DIGITALLY RECORDED

1 DIGITALLY RECORDED SWORN STATEMENT OF OIG CASE #: 2019-010614 DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL AUGUST 5, 2021 RESOLUTE DOCUMENTATION SERVICES 28632 Roadside Drive, Suite 285 Agoura Hills, CA 91301 Phone: EFTA00062970 2 APPEARANCES: OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL BY: BY: WITNESS: OTHER APPEARANCES: NONE EFTA00062971 3 1 : The recorder is on. My 2 name is , and I am a senior 3 special agent with the U.S. Department of 4 Justice, Office of the Inspector General, New 5 York Field Office, and these are my 6 credentials. 7 : Thank you. 8 : All right. And this 9 interview with Federal Bureau of Prisons 10 employee - is it 11 12 13 : Yes. 14 15 as part of an official U.S. Department of 16 Justice, Office of the Inspector General 17 (DOJ/OIG) investigation. Today's date is 18 August 5th, 2021, and the time is 2:34 p.m. 19 This interview is being conducted at the 20 Metropolitan Correctional Center, or the MCC, 21 located in New York, New York. Also present is 22 DOJ/OIG Special Agent This 23 interview will be recorded by me, SSA 24 . Could everyone please identify 25 themselves for the record, and spell your last • • , is being conducted EFTA00062972 4 1 name? To start, again, I am DOJ/OIG Senior 2 Special Agent 3 4 : This is DOJ/OIG Special Agent 5 . And these are my 6 credentials. 7 : Thank you, sir. 8 : And can you say and spell 9 your name for the record, and your position 10 title? 11 : Okay. Senior officer 12 specialist. First name . Last name 13 14 : That's fine. We'll ask 15 you more later. And how do you spell your 16 first name? 17 18 : Okay. Thank you, sir. 19 This is an official DOJ/OIG investigation into 20 the death of inmate Jeffrey Epstein, and the 21 surrounding circumstances, and you are being 22 asked to voluntarily provide answers to our 23 questions. Will you agree to a voluntary 24 interview with the DOJ/OIG? 25 : Yes. EFTA00062973 5 1 : Thank you, sir. This is 2 a form that we give to our voluntary - or to 3 our employees who are requested to provide 4 information on a voluntary basis. It says, 5 United States Department of Justice, Office of 6 the Inspector General, Warnings and Assurances 7 to Employee Requested to Provide Information on 8 a Voluntary Basis. "You are being asked to 9 provide information as part of an investigation 10 being conducted by the Office of the Inspector 11 General. This investigation is being conducted 12 pursuant to the Inspector General Act of 1978, 13 as amended. This investigation pertains to job 14 performance failure and security failure. This 15 is a voluntary interview. Accordingly, you do 16 not have to answer questions. No disciplinary 17 action will be taken against you if do not 18 choose to answer our questions. Any statements 19 you furnish may be used as evidence in any 20 future criminal proceedings, or agency 21 disciplinary proceedings, or both." And 22 there's a waiver section. It says, "I 23 understand the Warnings and Assurances stated 24 above and I am willing to make a statement and 25 answer questions. No promises or threats have EFTA00062974 6 1 been made to me, and no pressure or coercion of 2 any kind has been used against me." So, you 3 can take a look, if you'd like, at this form. 4 And if you agree with it and understand it, you 5 can sign where it says employee signature, and 6 then print your name where it says employee's 7 name. There you go (Indiscernible *00:02:51) 8 if you'd like. 9 : Okay. Okay. You said sign my 10 name right here? 11 : Yeah. Where it says 12 employee signature. And then, you can just 13 print your name underneath, where it says -. 14 Okay. 15 : My full name? 16 : Yes. 17 : Yes, please. Thank you, 18 sir. Okay. And I am signing where it says 19 signature of Office of the Inspector General 20 Special Agent, and I am printing my name below. 21 Again, this is The date is 22 8/5/21, and the time is 23 : 2:38. 24 • 25 : 38. EFTA00062975 7 1 : :38 p.m. Place, at 2 MCC, New York. Special Agent , can you 3 please sign as the witness? 4 : This is Agent , signing 5 as the witness. 6 : Did you understand that 7 form? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. You understand 10 this is voluntary. You can choose to leave at 11 any time. Thank you. Before starting, I'd 12 like to place you under oath. , could 13 you please raise your right hand? Do you swear 14 to tell the truth and nothing but the truth 15 during this interview? 16 : Yes. 17 : Thank you, sir. Please 18 let me know if you don't understand any 19 questions. I will repeat it or try to rephrase 20 it. Okay? What is your current home address? 21 22 (Phonetic Sp. *00:04:26). 23 24 : Thank you, sir. And 25 that's in EFTA00062976 8 1 2 3 date of birth? 4 • : Okay. And what is your • 5 : And what is your SSN? 6 : The last four or the whole 7 thing? 8 : The last four is fine. 9 10 : And what is your current 11 cell phone number? 12 13 : And what is your highest 14 level of education? 15 : High school. 16 : High school. And where 17 did you go to high school? 18 19 20 : And when did you graduate 21 high school? 22 23 : Thank you, sir. And what 24 did you do prior to working for the BOP? 25 : 1 used to work for private EFTA00062977 9 1 corrections, CCA. Corrections Corporation of 2 America. 3 : Okay. Great. Now, do 4 you have any military service? 5 : No, sir. 6 : And how long have you 7 served with the Federal Bureau of Prisons? 8 : February will be 20 years. 9 : Okay. Great. Do you 10 remember your entry on duty date? 11 12 : Thank you, sir. And do 13 you recall when you graduated from BOP 14 training, around, like, the - even the year? 15 : I can't. I don't remember. 16 : Would it have been right 17 away, in 2002? 18 : No. It was a little later. 19 : But you've attended it? 20 : Yes. 21 : And that is correctional 22 officer training down at FLETC? 23 : Yes. 24 : Okay. Great. And what 25 is your current position with the BOP? EFTA00062978 10 1 : I'm a senior officer 2 specialist. 3 : And what does that 4 position entail? 5 : It just means that, you know, 6 I've worked every post, and I've been on -. 7 Worked about every post, and I'm a little bit 8 more trained than the people that's now getting 9 hired. 10 : Okay. So, and it's in 11 the custody side of the house? 12 : Yes. 13 : Okay. Great. What is 14 your grade level? 15 : My grade level is eight, step 16 ten. 17 : Great. Thank you. And 18 are you familiar with Jeffrey Epstein? 19 : Yes. 20 : Was he housed within the 21 MCC in July and August of 2019? 22 : I believe so, but I'm not too 23 sure. Because Epstein wasn't a big deal to me. 24 : Okay. And what do you 25 mean by that? EFTA00062979 11 1 : Meaning that, he's just - he 2 was somebody that was being processed through 3 the federal government for committing a crime. 4 : Okay. What about after 5 the fact, that knowing, you know, how much news 6 attention and everything that had been placed 7 upon it, did you think it became a little bit 8 bigger of a deal then? 9 : I guess it was a big deal of 10 how, you know, the job was treating them. You 11 know? Meaning that, you know, he was a high- 12 profile inmate, he shad - you know - he shad 13 been on Ten South, or he shad been on suicide 14 watch. 15 : Okay. And you're saying 16 that based upon the fact that he killed 17 himself? 18 : Yes. 19 : Okay. And we can get 20 into that more later. What was your position 21 at the MCC in July and August of 2019? 22 : If I remember correctly, I was 23 internal number two. 24 : Okay. I'm sorry. Were 25 you a senior officer specialist -- EFTA00062980 12 1 : Yes. 2 : -- as well? Perfect. And 3 they're the same duties and responsibilities 4 that you just described? Basically, like, a 5 very knowledgeable correctional officer? 6 : Yes. Yes. About that. Yeah. 7 : Okay. Did you have any 8 interactions or involvement with Epstein during 9 his stay at MCC? 10 : No. 11 : No. Did you even 12 communicate with him at all? 13 : No. 14 : Did you see him at all? 15 : I seen him once. I think he 16 was down on suicide watch. One time. 17 : Okay. And were you 18 working at suicide watch? 19 : No. I think I was activities, 20 maybe. So, I had to go through, sign the 21 logbook, maybe. I don't -. I can't remember 22 what post, or what post I was on, or maybe I 23 was internal. You know, and, you know, we have 24 a shortage of staff. So, I wear many different 25 titles during the day. EFTA00062981 13 1 : Sure. 2 : So, I can't really tell you how 3 I saw him that particular day, but I know I did 4 see him. 5 : Okay. So, when he was on 6 suicide watch, you remember, you know, you have 7 acted as the activities lieutenant, though, in 8 the past? 9 : Yes. 10 : Okay. Great. 11 : But that day, I can't remember 12 what post. 13 : Sure. Do you happen to 14 remember if you worked at the MCC on August 9th 15 and 10th of 2019? The day leading up to and the 16 day he was - the day of - finding him in his 17 cell? 18 : Yeah. I believe so. The day 19 of? I was certainly here. The day before? I 20 can't remember. 21 : Okay. Great. Do you 22 know what you were doing that day? And I have a 23 duty agent - I have a 24 : Uh-huh. 25 : I'm going to give you EFTA00062982 14 1 the daily -- 2 : I was -. 3 -- receipt, and I'll try 4 to -. Here you go, and here is the daily 5 assignment roster for both Friday, August 9th, 6 2019, and Saturday, August 10th, 2019. I have 7 taken the liberty of just highlighting your 8 name next -- 9 : Okay. 10 11 12 number two. 13 : -- position title. : Control one. And internal : So, on August 9th, you 14 were control number one, and then, August -. 15 : No, now, which one is the day 16 of? 17 : And so, we got the day 18 leading up to it will be the 9th. 19 20 21 that you were 22 Okay. : And that's where it says Control one. Yes. 23 : -- you were control one. 24 Okay. And that says that you were control one 25 from 4:00 p.m. until midnight? EFTA00062983 15 1 : Yes. 2 : Okay. Great. And then, 3 the following day, it says Saturday, August 4 10th, 2019. You were internal number two, on 5 overtime, from midnight through 8:00 a.m.? 6 : Yes. 7 : Perfect. Thank you, sir. 8 And I'm just going to keep this here, in case 9 we ask you about anything -- 10 : Okay. 11 : -- with regard to, you 12 know, either you or other people that were 13 working on that, on that day. So, as - let's 14 do it one at a time - as August 9th, 2019, you 15 state that you were control number one. What 16 did those duties and responsibilities entail? 17 18 19 Correct. 20 : Okay. For control number one? : Control number one. : The duties entail -. 21 : And specifically, we're 22 talking about for that shift, for the 4:00 to 23 midnight shift. 24 : Okay. 4:00 p.m. to midnight 25 shift. Duties entail of just, you know, being EFTA00062984 16 1 the eyes and the ears for the lieutenant. 2 : Okay. 3 : We reviewed the camera, and we 4 watched the cameras a little bit. We popped 5 doors. We answered phones. If anybody is 6 calling, asking about their loved ones that are 7 incarcerated here. 8 : So, you're in the control 9 center, correct? 10 : Yes. 11 : Are you one of two 12 officers in the control center? 13 : Yes. 14 : All right. So, what is 15 the difference between what the control number 16 one officer does, and the control number two 17 officer does? 18 : Okay. Control number one 19 officer. Control number one officer actually, 20 you know, popped the doors, do all the 21 paperwork. 22 : Okay. So, when you say 23 paperwork, like, if they're counts, you fill 24 out the paperwork? 25 : Not the counts. That's the CNA EFTA00062985 17 1 officer, or the internal unit two officer. The 2 control officer, the control officers handles 3 the door, the popping of the doors, listening 4 to the radios. 5 : Answer it. Okay. And 6 so, and who actually is supposed to take care 7 of the counts, then, during that time? 8 : The counts are CNA. Or 9 now/internal two. 10 : Okay. And what does CNA 11 stand for? 12 : CNA is - what is that - Counts. 13 Oh, it's been a long time since I had to, like, 14 pronounce the abbreviation for CNA. But CNA is 15 16 : Is that somebody that's 17 listed on this sheet? 18 : -- internal number two. 19 : Oh, so, CNA is internal 20 number two? 21 : Yes. 22 : Okay. So, in this case, 23 it's 24 : Yes. 25 : All right. So, he EFTA00062986 18 1 actually would be the person that's supposed to 2 be doing the counts? 3 : Yes. 4 : All right. And what 5 about for, on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, for 6 internal number two, from midnight through 8:00 7 a.m. What were your duties and 8 responsibilities? 9 : Yes. That was me, internal 10 number two. My duties was to generate the 11 count. Generate the PPE'. Make any moves, if 12 any inmates move from one unit to the next 13 unit. Answer the phones. 14 : So, when you say inmates 15 move from one unit to the next unit, do you 16 mean, like, keying them into different -- 17 : Yes. Keying them into -- 18 : -- so, keying them out of 19 one, and keying -- 20 : -- key them out of a -- 21 : -- into the other. 22 : -- out of a housing unit, and 23 moving them to the next. 24 : Okay. So, not the actual 25 physical movement -- EFTA00062987 19 1 2 3 4 : electronically. : Yes. : -- you're talking about Electronical. 5 : Okay. In the BOP 6 databases. 7 : Yes. 8 : Perfect. So -. 9 : And also, my duties are to 10 actually go upstairs and do the count. To help 11 out internal with the count. 12 : Okay. So, not only are 13 you taking the count and filling out the 14 paperwork, but you're actually physically going 15 somewhere? 16 : Yes. 17 : And where are you going 18 to? 19 : I have to go - at that time - I 20 had to count Nine North, and unit two. 21 : Okay. And then, so, I 22 know Nine South. What is Nine North? 23 : Nine North is a housing unit. 24 : Okay. So, just a normal, 25 regular general pop housing -- EFTA00062988 20 1 : Yes. 2 : -- housing unit? Okay. 3 So, that's what you were doing in that specific 4 date? 5 : Yes. 6 : Or is that always the 7 internal number two goes and counts Nine North? 8 : Yeah. That's how they have 9 internal number two set up for their post. 10 : So, always counting the 11 same housing units, every -- 12 13 14 : Yeah. : -- every shift? : Basically, we help out 15 internal. If you was working as the internal 16 officer, and you needed my help to, you know, 17 because you know that I'm supposed to help you. 18 : Okay. 19 : You would say, hey, , I 20 need you to count nine and two, or just say, I 21 need you to count both sides of 11. 22 : Gotcha. Okay. 23 : And I'm - 24 : So, you're basically the 25 -- EFTA00062989 21 1 : Yeah. 2 : -- control number - I 3 mean, is it control number one, that we're 4 talking about? 5 : Control number two. 6 : Control number one is 7 kind of, like, in charge 8 : Yeah. 9 : -- and then, control 10 number two 11 : Control number one -- 12 : -- is the assistant. 13 : -- do not leave control. 14 : Control number one stays 15 in there the whole time? 16 : Yes. 17 : Okay. Control number two 18 actually is the one that -. Okay. So, the 19 person who is control number Control number 20 one doesn't leave? 21 : Yes. 22 : All right. So, you 23 wouldn't have left then on Friday, August 9th. 24 You would have been in there the whole time? 25 : Yeah. EFTA00062990 22 1 : During your shift. 2 : Yes. 3 : And then, you're saying 4 that on Saturday, August 10th, 2019, when you 5 were internal number two, that's when you would 6 have left your shift, and helped with the 7 counts? 8 : Yes. 9 : Okay. But as their 10 internal number two, you were actually taking 11 the counts and writing in the documentation? 12 : I'm taking count, and also, I'm 13 going upstairs to actually physically do the 14 count. 15 : Okay. 16 : In two houses. 17 : All right. But as 18 control number one, the day before, you weren't 19 actually supposed to be involved with the 20 counts? 21 : No. The only thing I do is sit 22 there. Once you complete the count and you 23 tell me, and we have a good verbal, I announce 24 it on the radio, I log it in the logbook, and 25 then, you say, clear count. I announce it on EFTA00062991 23 1 the radio. Write it in the logbook. Clear 2 count. 3 : Okay. And on these dates 4 - and I'm sorry to pop back and forth - but on 5 Friday, August 9th, 2019, when you were control 6 number one, who would you be primarily be 7 working with? 8 : At that time, shortage of 9 staff, you could have any -. 10 : I mean, on this specific 11 -- 12 : No. 13 date. 14 : You have a different partner 15 almost every day. On this specific day, I'd be 16 working with if he was in 17 if he was internal number two. 18 : Okay. So, the two of you 19 would be working together? 20 : Yeah. But I really don't think 21 I was with that day. I think it was 22 and then, he went home, because 23 goes home at 10:00. Because I was 24 working with , and then he went home. 25 : When did he go home? EFTA00062992 24 1 2 3 4 5 : I think he went home at 10:00. : At 10:00? : And I -- : So then : -- probably was in there by 6 myself for a few, but I can't remember. I 7 can't remember. 8 : No, that makes a lot of 9 sense. We're going to go over the actual 10 counts because you actually took the count at 11 10:00 p.m. 12 : Okay. 13 : So, that makes sense. 14 So, was he supposed to go home, or he had to go 15 home -? 16 : Yes. He's supposed to go home. 17 : Okay. So, at the 10:00 18 p.m. count, then, as control number one, you 19 actually take it -? 20 : Yeah. Like, when you're in 21 there by yourself, and there's a shortage of 22 staff, you got to play both roles. 23 : Okay. At 10:00 p.m., 24 though, was there supposed to be two people in 25 there? EFTA00062993 25 1 : Yeah. Until 10:00 p.m. 2 : So, that's what I mean. 3 So, like, at the 10:00 p.m., are you -. Only 4 until 10:00 p.m. So, but at 10:00 p.m., the 5 count happens after the person - control number 6 two - leaves. Right? 7 : Yes. So, control number two is 8 supposed to print up everything, and since he's 9 off duty at 10:00, I will take the paperwork 10 that he generated, and do the count for him. 11 : Okay. So, control number 12 one is actually responsible for the 10:00 p.m. 13 count. Correct? 14 : Control number one is not 15 responsible for the count. But if - I mean, if 16 you are in there by yourself, now that's your 17 second job. 18 : Okay. So, who is 19 responsible for it, then? 20 : Whoever is supposed to be 21 posted CNA. So, I'm -. Okay. It's two 22 different. Like, see here, we have a lot of 23 job titles that kind of, like, they took from 24 us. CNA is supposed to be a post. CNA is 25 supposed to be a post that goes in at whatever EFTA00062994 26 1 time control goes in. At this time, when he 2 was on eights, when he was on eights, every 3 shift was 8:00 to 12:00, 12:00 -. My fault. 4 8:00 to 4:00, 4:00 to 12:00, and then, 12:00 to 5 8:00. When CNA comes in for evening watch, 6 evening watch is 4:00 to 12:00. 4:00 to 12:00. 7 When evening watch comes in, control one comes 8 in, control two comes in. Now, somebody, you 9 know, had a big idea and said, hey, you need 10 to, you know, we need to stop generating money. 11 We need to modify the hours. So, we don't need 12 two people in control. So, they modified the 13 hours, and made control number two. 14 : Yeah. 15 : From that time. 16 : Right. So, at this 17 point, though -. 18 : So, I think this is, what, 2:00 19 20 : So -- 21 : 2:00 to 10:00 -- 22 : -- 2:00 to 10:00 -- 23 now? 24 : -- Correct. So, that's 25 where I'm saying, it's, like, if they're EFTA00062995 27 1 leaving at 10:00 -- 2 : Yes. 3 : -- and the count is being 4 conducted at 10:00, and they usually get, you 5 know, they leave usually a couple minutes 6 before, too. It sounds like, at this time, on 7 August 9th -- 8 : Now, I -- 9 : -- you would have been 10 the one 11 12 13 14 : -- took the count. : -- who took the count. : Yes. : So, that's where I just 15 want to make sure we're not getting Because 16 I'm getting confused with all this. 17 : Yeah. 18 : So, on August 9th, 2019, 19 as control number one, you would have taken the 20 count? 21 : Yes. If my name is on that 22 form, I took the count. 23 : Right. And no one else 24 would have been in there with you to take that 25 count -- EFTA00062996 28 1 : No. 2 : -- it would have just 3 been you? Okay. All right. Because I was 4 getting confused. All right. And then, as far 5 as on August 10th, 2019, as internal number 6 two, you would have also taken the count. 7 Correct? 8 : Yes. 9 : The 12:00 a.m., 3:00 10 a.m., and 5:00 a.m.? 11 : Yes. If they filled that post, 12 like, my name is there, so, they filled that 13 post with overtime. So, that was me. 14 : Okay. 15 : So, I did that post. I worked 16 that post. I generated the El. I went 17 upstairs, conducted the count on the two 18 housing units that I have to count, and then, I 19 would go back downstairs, and finish the count 20 on my El, meaning the cross, as units call me 21 up, saying, hey, this is EN with the count of 22 14, and I would say, good count, bad count, and 23 then, cross it off the on paperwork. 24 : Okay. And then, we 25 talked about who you worked with on August 9th. EFTA00062997 29 1 2 3 4 You said that, although this says , you think it's somebody else? : I think it's somebody else. I can't remember. 5 : Sure. 6 : And then 7 : It's been a while. 8 : -- on August 10th, 2019, 9 it says you were internal two, internal one was 10 - does that say 11 : Yeah. He don't come in Oh, 12 well. He's internal. So, that's the person 13 that I'm helping to conduct the count with. 14 : Okay. So, he is doing 15 all -- 16 : He's -. 17 : -- he's actually 18 physically going to the different units? 19 : Yes. 20 : Collecting count slips, 21 and things like that. 22 • : Yes. 23 : And you're assisting, you 24 said -- 25 : Yes. EFTA00062998 30 1 : -- with him. But you're 2 also taking the counts? 3 : Yes. 4 : Okay. Thank you. And 5 who did you report to on these days? Are you 6 always reporting to the Ops Lieutenant? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. So then, so on 9 August 9th, you would have been reporting to 10 , I think, both times, because 11 , although he's listed, he was relieved 12 at 10:00 p.m. back then. They were working two 13 hours before the start of their shift. So, 14 started at 10:00 p.m. So, you 15 would have been reporting to 16 then, for both shifts? 17 : Yes. 18 : Okay. 19 : Yeah. I don't - you know - I 20 don't recall (Indiscernible *00:21:20) . The 21 only thing I could try to recall was what I was 22 doing because that's all I could do. 23 : Well, per these 24 documents, at least, it shows 25 would have -- EFTA00062999 31 1 : Yeah. It shows her name. 2 : -- been the person you're 3 reporting to. Okay. Were you previously 4 interviewed under this investigation? 5 : Yes. You know, the first time. 6 Yeah. 7 : Were you interviewed more 8 than once? 9 : No. Just once. 10 : Okay. I'm going to just 11 review the report that was written in regard to 12 that interview. I just want you to - I'm not 13 going to provide it to you because it's written 14 on an FBI document - but however, the OIG was 15 present. So, it's our information to have. 16 So, I'll read it to you. And just, if you can 17 just stop me if there is anything in there that 18 is not accurate. 19 Okay. 20 : Okay? So, it says that, 21 " , Senior Officer Specialist at the 22 Bureau of Prisons, Metropolitan Correctional 23 Center," and it says, yada, yada, yada. "Was 24 interviewed at the United States Attorney's 25 Office, Southern District of New York, 1 St. EFTA00063000 32 1 Andrews Plaza, New York, New York. Present for 2 the interview were FBI Special Agent 3 , FBI Task Force Officer, TFO 4 , Office of the Inspector General Special 5 Agent and Assistant United States 6 Attorney . AUSA advised 7 that the interview was in lieu of an appearance 8 before the federal grand jury, and is 9 voluntary. SA provided with an OIG 10 Warnings and Assurances to Employee Requested 11 to Provide Information on a Voluntary Basis 12 form, which signed, and was witnessed by 13 SA's and . SA retained the 14 original, and a copy is attached in the lA 15 section of this report. After being advised of 16 the identity of the interviewing investigators, 17 and the nature of the interview, provided 18 the following information. worked for 19 Corrections Corporation of America from 20 approximately 2000 until 2002, when he started 21 working for the BOP at MCC. On August 10th, 22 2019, was assigned internal two on the 23 morning watch, which is 12:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. 24 This post helps with the count, getting 25 paperwork and rosters ready for the count, and EFTA00063001 33 1 sometimes helps conduct the count of some of 2 the units. Units Nine South and Ten do not 3 require help for the count because there are 4 officers stationed in those units that do the 5 counts. During the morning watch shift of 6 August 10th, prepared the count by getting 7 the paperwork together. Officer , as the 8 control officer, took officer's phone calls, 9 receiving the verbal count for the 12:00 a.m., 10 3:00 a.m., and 5:00 a.m. counts. When an 11 officer calls into control with the count for a 12 particular unit, control advises if the number 13 was a good count or a bad count. Control has 14 many different functions. So, when an officer 15 calls in a count, control takes the officer's 16 word that the count was conducted. didn't 17 think that control received the verbal count 18 from the Special Housing Unit for that shift. 19 However, he could not say for sure because he 20 wasn't the one taking the calls for the counts. 21 was assisting in doing the counts in the 22 other units. signed off on the counts 23 because during that shift, he was the senior 24 ranking officer. On the morning of August 25 10th, 2019 -." Is that all correct? EFTA00063002 34 1 2 3 Yes. : Does that sound accurate. Yeah. It sounds accurate. 4 : All right. Because the 5 person said -. I thought she said that 6 she wasn't taking the calls. 7 : Okay. 8 : She wasn't taking the calls? 9 : Oh, yeah. 10 : So -. 11 : We help each other. 12 : Okay. 13 : Mm-hmm. You know, we help each 14 other. So, if I'm upstairs doing a count, and 15 it takes me a little longer to come downstairs, 16 she will pick up the phone and take the counts. 17 : Okay. 18 : Now, if I go upstairs, and the 19 counts, you know, it's a little faster, I will 20 come downstairs and I will take over the 21 paperwork, just, like, you pass me your 22 paperwork, I will let you do what you do -. 23 Let you finish doing your task, and I will take 24 it right back over where you left off. 25 : Okay. EFTA00063003 35 1 : And I will -- 2 : Because, yeah -- 3 : -- (Indiscernible *00:25:11). 4 : I think her 5 explanation was, she helped with, like, you 6 know, everything else, you were involved with 7 the counts, taking the counts on the phone, and 8 -- 9 : Yeah. 10 : -- and writing the 11 counts. Is that accurate, actually? 12 : Yes. That's accurate. 13 : So, this actually is 14 inaccurate the way it says that she took all 15 the counts, and the phone calls, then? 16 : I mean, I can't really remember 17 -- 18 : Okay. 19 : -- what actually happened, but 20 like I said, we try to help each other out 21 : Sure. 22 -- because we all have 23 : But as your 24 many different jobs. 25 : -- and this isn't, like, EFTA00063004 36 1 an I gotcha moment, this is just - I just want 2 to make sure I understand, because your 3 responsibility on August 10th was actually to 4 take the calls, and take the verbal -- 5 : Yes. 6 : -- counts. Correct? 7 : Yes. 8 : Okay. Great. "On the 9 morning of August 10th, 2019, a body alarm went 10 off at approximately 6:33 a.m. responded 11 to the SHU where the body alarm had sounded, 12 along with another officer. The Nine South 13 officers, medical, and Lieutenant were 14 already at the location. With medical 15 performing CPR. went to get a stretcher 16 and assisted in taking Jeffrey Epstein to the 17 medical unit. When emergency medical surveys 18 arrived, they started performing CPR, took 19 Epstein out to an ambulance, and transported 20 him to the hospital. followed the 21 ambulance to the hospital in another secure 22 vehicle. stayed at the hospital until he 23 was relieved from duty." 24 : Yes. 25 : Okay. doesn't EFTA00063005 37 1 recall any specific state that Epstein was in 2 when he responded to the scene. did 3 recall that Epstein was still loose, because 4 Epstein had to be put in restraints before he 5 could be transported. However, there was no 6 movement by Epstein on his own." So, was 7 Epstein still alive? 8 : Their policy states that nobody 9 passed away inside the institution. Like I 10 said, when I responded, when I got to the post, 11 in Nine South, he was already doing, performing 12 CPR, from medical staff and Nine South staff. 13 : Okay. 14 : They was already performing 15 CPR. So, since they was performing CPR, 16 someone needs to go get that gurney so they can 17 carry him down to medical. So -- 18 : And I understand -- 19 (Indiscernible *00:27:13). 20 : -- that you're not able 21 to say if he was officially alive or dead, but 22 was he showing any signs of life? 23 : I don't know. Once I see 24 somebody performing CPR, that means something 25 bad is going on. So -- EFTA00063006 38 1 : Did you see his eyes 2 open? 3 : -- honestly, I cannot really 4 tell you what he looks like. 5 : Okay. 6 : Because it's been so long ago. 7 And the only thing I know, they was performing 8 CPR. I ran to go get the gurney. Because if 9 you're performing CPR, he's definitely going to 10 have to go down to medical. 11 : Okay. So, you can't 12 recall - even though this was a big incident, 13 and pretty traumatic - you can't recall if his 14 eyes were open, or if he was breathing, or 15 anything like that? 16 : I can't recall. 17 : Okay. acknowledged 18 that he wrote a memo about the incident. This 19 was due to the fact that when one responds to a 20 body alarm, it has to be documented. did 21 not recall any interactions with Epstein prior 22 to Epstein's death." And that's the end of 23 that. 24 : Okay. 25 : Does all that seem EFTA00063007 39 1 accurate? 2 3 : Yes. : Okay. I'm not going to 4 attach that. All right. So, we are going to 5 go over the count sheets that were done. Oh, 6 shoot. All right. So, these are just the 7 count sheets for the (Indiscernible *00:28:43). 8 This one is I'm going to move this over 9 here. So, this one wasn't you. I'm just 10 showing you, kind of, where I have highlighted 11 just the time, and then, I have, you know, what 12 we're particularly interested in, are going to 13 be RA and ZA. 14 : Okay. 15 : ZA stands for the SHU. 16 Correct? 17 : Yes. Nine South. 18 : The Special Housing Unit. 19 And RA stands for R&D. Correct? 20 : Yes. 21 : All right. Great. So, 22 here is the one for 8/9/2019. It looks like 23 this was the 5:00 a.m. count. Correct? 24 : Yes. 25 : All right. It shows in EFTA00063008 40 1 the SHU, 77, and R&D is zero. And this one, 2 it's 8/9/2019. This one looks like it was for 3 the 4:00 p.m. count. RA says zero. All right. 4 So, R&D was zero. It says the SHU was 76. One 5 in attorney conference. And one in Or I'm 6 sorry. 75 that were actually physically 7 present in the SHU. Correct? 8 : Mm-hmm. 9 : All right. And then, 10 we're going to go back, and now we'll start 11 looking at these count slips, just so we can 12 kind of get an idea. All right. On the second 13 to last page, there's a ZA, it shows 75. I 14 just highlighted that. That was on 8/9/19, 15 time 4:00. It says Noel and signed for 16 them. Correct? 17 : Okay. 18 : And then, attorney. It 19 actually says three. A total of three, because 20 they were from other units. All right. So, 21 and one of them being from the SHU. Correct? 22 : Yes. 23 : All right. So, we've got 24 the 75 on that, 75 there. All right. Now, we 25 get to where you come in. So, this is the EFTA00063009 41 1 2 3 4 10:00 p.m. count. Correct? : Yes. : So, on 8/9/2019, this was printed out at 9:33 p.m. According to this, RA 5 - or R&D - both show zero. 6 : Yes. 7 : ZA - which is the SHU - 8 shows 73 on both columns. Correct? 9 : Yes. 10 : So, is this your 11 handwriting here? 12 : Yes. 13 : All right. And would 14 15 this be you, "good verbal," 10:30 p.m.? : Yes. 16 : All right. So, that 17 means you took the verbal count, as well? 18 : Yes. 19 20 we'll go to the : All right. And so, then, - it looks like the second to 21 last page here. So, here we got R&D, 8/19, 22 10:00 p.m. Was this an ? (Phonetic Sp. 23 *00:31:11) . 24 : Yes. 25 : All right. And then, up EFTA00063010 42 1 here, we have an NS+1. And then, here, for ZA, 2 we got a 73+1, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00 p.m., it looks 3 like a and a Noel. Correct? 4 : Yes. 5 : Would you be the ones 6 that was crossing off all of these count slips? 7 : Yes. 8 : Do you know why these 9 were not crossed off? 10 : I'm not too sure. 11 : Are these nine S, plus 12 one on the R&D, and this plus one on the ZA, 13 were they your handwriting? 14 : Yes. 15 : So, that is your 16 handwriting -- 17 : Yes. 18 : NS+1? 19 : That nine S looks like my 20 handwriting. Yes. 21 : And do you know what that 22 would have meant? 23 : Okay. Sometimes, they asked us 24 to, you know, at the Sentry, it's too late to 25 punch in the body, oh, well, punch in the EFTA00063011 43 1 inmate into the specific housing unit because 2 the count, you know, the count down states 3 that, after, what? 8:00, after -. If the count 4 is being 5 10:45, I 6 is going conducted at 12:00, you have until think, to punch in any new inmate that to a specific unit. So, at this time, 7 I believe - because only a lieutenant could 8 tell us, to ghost count. 9 : Okay. 10 : So, basically, the numbers are 11 here, the numbers are right, but on this 12 specific unit, we have one in R&D, that needs 13 to be moved to Nine South. 14 : Or that they otherwise, 15 Nine South needs to be moved to R&D. : Yeah. : Because RA, or R&D, shows 16 17 18 zero. 19 Mm-hmm. 20 : Correct? 21 : Yeah. So, he's in -. So, 22 basically, he's in RA right now. Because 23 that's why we got that little count slip saying 24 RA plus one. Basically, he's supposed to be 25 Nine South. He's supposed to be Nine South EFTA00063012 44 1 plus one. But right now, he's in RA. 2 : Okay. So, what is - when 3 it says -. Should this say 73+1 then, or is he 4 saying 73-1? 5 : No. That's supposed - yeah - 6 it's supposed to be minus one, but I guess that 7 was an error by me. 8 : All right. And you're 9 the one who wrote that? 10 : Yes. 11 : Okay. So, and are you 12 positive you're the one who wrote this plus 13 one, and this 95+1? By looking at that. 14 : Now, this right here don't look 15 like my handwriting. 16 : The plus one next to the 17 73? 18 : Yeah. That don't look like my 19 handwriting. But I know that Nine South, that 20 nine and S right there is mine. 21 : So, he Nine South plus 22 one is yours? 23 : Yeah. 24 : Okay. And is there a 25 reason why this wasn't crossed out? EFTA00063013 45 1 : I don't know. 2 : Okay. And is there 3 anything that you can think of, why wasn't the 4 person that was in R&D, why weren't they 5 changed out of the SHU and put into R&D 6 internally, in the BOP systems? 7 : I'm not too sure. 8 : For El. So, by the way 9 that this is -. Do you know if you did this at 10 10:00 p.m., during the count, or do you 11 remember if you did it after the fact? 12 : I can't remember, sir. 13 : All right. But in order 14 to do this, you're saying that an Ops 15 Lieutenant would have had to authorize that? 16 : Yeah. 17 : So, you would have spoken 18 to that person? 19 : Yeah. 20 : And do you remember if 21 you spoke to that person, though -? 22 : No. I can't remember. 23 : All right. So, the fact 24 that these people gave you a count that said 25 73, would that be an inaccurate count? If there EFTA00063014 46 1 was only 72 people in the unit? 2 : Yes. It would be an inaccurate 3 count. You know, if I conducted - yeah, my 4 name is there. So, I dropped the ball on that 5 one. 6 : All right. Did you drop 7 the ball or did they? Because, look, I don't 8 want to say that you dropped the ball here, 9 because it looks like, to me, there were 73 10 here, there was 73 here. And on 8/10, at 11 midnight, although this is 72 here, and this 12 last page, it shows ZA, they're still saying 13 73. And then, to get even a little more 14 confusing, when I look at -. When you look at 15 these daily activity lieutenant logs. So, if 16 you go to the Saturday, August 10th log, it 17 starts the shift at 73. 18 : Mm-hmm. 19 : And then, at 12:35, 20 number one, negative one SHU correction, 21 Fernandez, dry cell. And if you go back to 22 this, daily log from August 9th, at 3:15 p.m., 23 it says, Fernandez was placed on dry cell from 24 ZA. So, it looks like that was finally 25 corrected at 12:35 a.m. EFTA00063015 47 1 : Okay. 2 : So, does that help jog 3 your memory at all about what happened here? 4 : No. 5 : Do you think that, being 6 that this count, this 73 matches up with this 7 count slip, at 10:00 p.m., and then, the 8 midnight count slip still says 73, but at 9 12:35, this was recognized. Would you have 10 placed this plus one at the 10:00 p.m. count 11 slips, after midnight? 12 : Hmm. I believe so. I can't 13 really recall, but it looks like I dropped the 14 ball somewhere. 15 : But how would you have 16 dropped the ball if your number showed 73, and 17 the people in the SHU were the ones reporting 18 73? 19 : Because as you see right here, 20 it says 73. So, something went wrong with the 21 numbers. Something went wrong with the -- 22 : Yeah. 23 numbers, but I know for sure 24 that we had 73 or 72 at that time, on those 25 units. EFTA00063016 48 1 : Yeah. No, I mean, so, 2 our investigation, we believe, is showing us 3 that there were 72 people for sure in the unit. 4 However, the people in the unit were reporting 5 73, because that's what the documentation 6 showed, 73. So, they weren't actually 7 conducting their counts. They were reporting 8 what they thought the numbers should be. 9 : Yeah. 10 : So, that's what we're 11 asking you, if they're reporting 73, and your 12 document shows 73, I don't see how you're 13 dropping the ball. Do you? 14 : I mean, somehow, somehow, you 15 know, like, you showed me my handwriting right 16 here, on the highlight -- 17 : Well, that's where a 18 portion of me wanting - believes that you 19 probably did this. So, every count slip here 20 is crossed off. Aside from these two. Why 21 would that be? 22 : I don't know. 23 : Do you know if these 24 count slips would have been re-created? 25 : I don't know, sir, because that EFTA00063017 49 1 looks like handwriting. That looks 2 like Noel's handwriting. So, you know, 3 everybody has a, you know, like, a certain type 4 of handwriting. 5 : Okay. Yeah, so, can you 6 think of a reason why you would cross all these 7 off, though, and not these two? 8 : I'm not too sure. I can't 9 remember. 10 : Have you ever seen that 11 before? 12 : Sometimes, it happens. 13 : And -. 14 : Like, especially if count slips 15 come down late. Sometimes it could happen. 16 Maybe, maybe I was on rushing to do another 17 task, and I just, you know, looked at it, 18 looked at the numbers, quick count, and then, I 19 stapled everything together. That could happen 20 too. So -- 21 : Okay. 22 because sometimes, we have 23 another task to go do. 24 : Now, at the 12:00 a.m. 25 count, on August 10th, does that mean that EFTA00063018 50 1 2 with you? 3 was in there taking the count : Yes. 4 : Okay. So, she was in 5 there, and you said you can only put a plus one 6 on a count slip if it's approved by the Ops 7 Lieutenant. 8 : Yes. 9 : Does that tell you that 10 the probably, then, these plus ones probably 11 occurred after the 12:00 a.m. count? 12 : No. I don't know. 13 : Because you said you 14 couldn't do the -. That you couldn't put these 15 plus ones at 10:00 p.m. unless 16 took the count -- 17 : Yeah. 18 : -- at 12:00. 19 : So, this had to be done before 20 10:00 p.m. Or during 21 : Well, the counts had to 22 do -- 23 or during 10:00 p.m. 24 : -- right. The counts had 25 to be done during 10:00 p.m., but these marks EFTA00063019 51 1 on here, the Nine S plus one and R&D, and the 2 73 plus, the plus one portion of the ZA, SHU, 3 they didn't necessarily had to be at 10:00 p.m. 4 Correct? 5 : Yes. These have to be done at 6 10:00 p.m. 7 : But the actual Nine South 8 plus one, and this 9 : Yeah. 10 : -- plus one -- 11 : Yeah. That's after. 12 : -- can't be done after 13 the fact? 14 : Maybe a little bit after. 15 Maybe a little bit after because the count 16 probably didn't clear until -. The count 17 didn't clear until 10:36. And so, this 18 probably was during that timeline, from either 19 9:58, from 9:55 to about 10:15, this had to be 20 brought about or generated. 21 : All right. Well, so, 22 this person who is in R&D, it's this person, 23 like I just mentioned, Fernandez. This is an 24 inmate quarter history. This person wasn't 25 removed from the SHU until 8/10/2019 at 0035. EFTA00063020 52 1 : Mm-hmm. 2 : When - again - she was 3 there. Ops Lieutenant So, are 4 you sure that this Nine South plus one, and 5 this plus one would have taken place at that 6 10:00 p.m. count? 7 : Yeah. 8 : Because why - if that 9 were the case - why wouldn't this have happened 10 well before the 12:00 p.m. count? Because 11 again, this R&D slip, there's not even somebody 12 there for R&D. If you knew, at this time, at 13 the 10:00 p.m. count, why wouldn't this person 14 have been keyed out, prior to the 12:00 a.m. 15 count? Or why would have she caught it at 12:35 16 a.m., and fixed it then? And why would have the 17 12:00 p.m., they still have been reflecting 73 18 on their count slip? You follow what I'm 19 saying? 20 : Yeah. 21 : Does that make you think 22 about them a little bit differently? 23 : 73 is what the count is 24 supposed to be? 25 : No. 72 is what the count EFTA00063021 53 1 is supposed to be. 2 : Yeah. 3 : So, this count -- 4 : Okay. 5 : -- on the El is correct. 6 : Yeah. 7 : The count slip is 8 incorrect. 9 : Yes. The count slip is 10 incorrect. 11 : So, at 10:00 p.m., these 12 guys are reflecting 73. Your El shows there's 13 supposed to be 73. So, you have a good count. 14 : Yeah. And so -- 15 : This one, they reflect 16 I dropped the ball -- 17 •-- 73. 18 I must have dropped the ball 19 right there. 20 : So, what I'm asking, 21 though, with this, you're telling me that his 22 handwriting had to have happened at the 10:00 23 p.m. count. 24 : Yes. 25 : Correct? And you still EFTA00063022 54 1 stick by that? 2 : I believe so. Yeah. I believe 3 so, because why is it there? You know? And -- 4 : My -- 5 : -- (Indiscernible *00:42:26). 6 : -- own idea is it's there 7 is because you now have the person, the Ops 8 Lieutenant, at 12:00 a.m. saying, hey, go back 9 to this count slip, put these plus ones, so it 10 reflects that's where these people actually 11 were. Did that make sense? 12 : Do you understand what he 13 : Yeah. 14 : -- showed you? 15 : Yeah. I -- 16 : About the fact that -- 17 : I know what he's saying. 18 : -- the actual (Indiscernible 19 *00:42:44) of that inmate missing. 20 : Yeah. 21 : Didn't happen until passed 22 midnight, because if not, the corrections would 23 have had to happen at 10:00 p.m. 24 : Yes. 25 : Yeah. So -- EFTA00063023 55 1 : Now, now -. 2 : -- if this was caught at 3 10:00 p.m., the 12:00 a.m. wouldn't be messed 4 up. That person would have been keyed out. 5 Right? 6 : Yeah. 7 : But he wasn't keyed out 8 until 12:35 a.m. 9 : Okay. 10 : But their slip is still 11 bad -- 12 : Yeah. 13 •-- at 12:00 a.m. 14 : Their slip is bad. 15 : So, the count slip is 16 bad. That count number is good. That is the 17 real count number. The question is, when did 18 this happen? To me, it looks like the people in 19 the SHU were just reporting the number they 20 thought they were supposed to be giving to you. 21 73. They didn't realize that this guy wasn't 22 in there. He was actually in R&D. He was in 23 R&D since at least 3:00 p.m. So, the 4:00 p.m. 24 count is bad. The 10:00 p.m. count is bad. 25 And finally, at midnight, it's caught. So, 1 EFTA00063024 56 1 don't - the way I look at it - it's not a drop 2 the ball on you. Because you didn't know that 3 that guy wasn't in there. So, we're trying to 4 help you put the pieces together of, if this is 5 your actual handwriting, when would have that 6 happened? To me, it seems like you're relying 7 on whatever is in the system. Somebody didn't 8 key this guy out. The Ops Lieutenant comes in. 9 Figures it out. And says, that guy is in R&D. 10 And I'm assuming the reason to why she figured 11 it out is because she's getting count slips. I 12 don't know when this count slip would have come 13 in, but there's a count slip for R&D at 10:00 14 p.m., and there's another count slip for R&D at 15 midnight. But like we said, this is the one 16 thing that's bad, this is bad, if that actually 17 came in at 10:00 p.m. because it shows zero in 18 R&D. 19 : Okay. 20 : But the thing that we're 21 trying to piece together, and what we're trying 22 to talk to, is two) because of when were these 23 things made? Sorry, first, when were these, you 24 know, notations made on these two count slips; 25 and second, why are they the only two that are EFTA00063025 57 1 not crossed off? Out of all the count slips. 2 : Hmm. I don't have no answer 3 for -- 4 : You don't remember that - 5 - 6 : -- for that question. 7 : -- at all? 8 : No. 9 : Do you remember, at all, 10 any conversations that were had with the SHU 11 that night, with regard to these counts? Or 12 this person being placed in R&D. 13 : No. 14 : Do you -. 15 : I can't recall. 16 : Do you remember - so, 17 we're told that the Ops Lieutenant, 18 claims she may have had a conversation 19 with the SHU, and where this person is - do you 20 remember that at all? 21 : No. 22 : No? 23 : Because if she talked to SHU, I 24 wouldn't have been on the phone for that. 25 : But wouldn't you have EFTA00063026 58 1 been next to her, though, if she was in 2 control, correct? 3 : Yes. But, you know, like, if 4 she was talking, I probably was focused on a 5 different task, because I have paperwork that I 6 have to do, too. 7 : Okay. 8 : But around this time, I start 9 cleaning out the folders. 10 : Okay. So, around the 11 10:30 p.m. time? 12 : Yeah. 13 : All right. So, there's 14 nothing that you can kind of help shed us light 15 on, with these count slips? 16 : No. I don't have nothing. 17 : And is it fair to say, 18 though, you do not know when you put these Nine 19 S plus one on the R&D, and then, the plus one 20 on the ZA? 21 : Yeah. 22 : So, you don't -. 23 : Now, this is not my handwriting 24 right here. 25 : So, the plus one next to EFTA00063027 59 1 the ZA is not you? 2 : I don't think that's me. But I 3 know for sure that's me. Right there. 4 : What do you know is for sure? 5 The nine S, or the plus one? 6 : Yeah. The nine S, plus one. 7 : Because the plus one here 8 looks kind of similar to this plus one there, 9 doesn't it? 10 : It looks similar, but I don't 11 believe that's my handwriting. But it could 12 be. It could be. 13 : Or maybe this plus one 14 isn't yours, and just the nine S is yours. 15 : You know, it could be my 16 handwriting. And I can't 17 : It could be. 18 : I can't remember. You know, 19 it's been -- 20 : All right. 21 a while. 22 : It's been a while. But 23 has 24 : Yeah. 25 : -- anything like this EFTA00063028 60 1 ever happened before? That you can think of. 2 : Probably. I mean, you know -- 3 : Have you seen -- 4 : -- it's not a -- 5 : -- things like -? 6 : -- it's not a, you know, it's 7 not a -. It's not a, you know, it's not a 8 science. You know? Mistakes do happen. 9 Because we do drop the ball. That's why we 10 have to, you know, view each other, and be, you 11 know, and work behind each other, and look over 12 each other's shoulder. It can be possible. 13 : So, any one that we've 14 showed this to has just been, like, whoa, I've 15 never seen anything like that before. But this 16 has actually happened in the past, where you've 17 seen this happen, where you put, like, a nine S 18 plus one? 19 : Sometimes. Like I said, you 20 know, like, you know, sometimes, R&D leaves 21 early. Like, right now, if this is 10:00 p.m., 22 R&D should have gone home already. 23 : Yeah. So, they have a 24 guy in dry cell with people in custody on him, 25 watching him. EFTA00063029 61 1 2 3 4 5 : that we get the : Yes. : Correct? And th